You cannot make this stuff up.
The community at VBACFacts has done a survey of members who attempted vaginal birth after C-section (VBAC) in the past 8 months and they are pretty jazzed about the results.
Indeed, members are encouraged to “enjoy these wonderful results.”
Too bad the results are hideous. Too bad that these women are so clueless that they don’t even realize that the results are hideous.
Yippee!! There were 309 successful VBACs out of 396 attempts, for a success rate of 78%, comparable to the results of large studies of VBAC.
Yippee!! Only 57 additional women opted for an elective repeat C-section.
Yippee!! There were only 5 uterine ruptures …
Oops! That’s bad. That’s a rupture rate of 1.2%. That’s not just bad; that’s hideous. The risk of uterine rupture is generally quoted as about 0.7%. The VBACFacts group has a rate that is 70% higher.
How many of those babies died? Don’t be silly; why would the folks at VBACFacts report an insignificant detail like that? They don’t know, and they don’t care.
What’s most chilling about this is that these fools are congratulating themselves when they should be sounding an alarm. What’s a few dead babies compared to a bunch of successful vaginal deliveries, right?
The VBACFacts community encourages women to take risks, praises them when they dodge a bullet, and ignores the dead babies when they don’t. Why would anyone who cares whether her baby lives or dies get her medical advice from them?
why would you use a very small sample of people from one group to prove anything. That one group doesn’t represent a population.
I don’t like that you screen shot a group that’s supposed to be private/secret/closed (whatever). Ladies are sharing a lot of personal info on there and don’t want the world to see! It’s supposed to be a support group to help each other. I am all for all the TRUE facts! But I don’t agree with you stealing info from their page. Post your own info; post your opposing views in there – that’s fine with me! And they are talking about “the skeptical OB” in the group plenty – don’t worry!
we can’t post any opposing views, points of clarification or concern, those all get deleted.
Please point us to the screen shot where “PERSONAL INFO” was reposted here on Dr. Amy’s blog.
The information isn’t stolen. It’s on the internet, retrieved by a member of the group. They don’t own it and if they are so ASHAMED of it, why are they posting it? Seems they WANT everyone to know how good their numbers are.
And yes, all “opposing views” are deleted from the VBAC”Facts” group. If you are “all for all the TRUE facts”, why are you not bothered by censorship, promotion of HBAC and deceiving women about the safety of VBACs?
You deleted it again. Really??
Sweetie, it’s there. Hit “refresh” and also check to see if your Disqus feed is sorting by “newest” “oldest” or “best.”
Yes. I have been responding to your posts, which I can’t see because they have been deleted.
No she didn’t. If she didn’t delete the VBAC”facts”member that called her a c&@t I doubt she deleted your post.
Take a 5 minute break, figure out how to use Disqus and come back.
Try refreshing the page, then go down to the bottom and hit “Load more comments” until your post appears. Disqus only shows 50 at a time and there are now over 400 on this post.
You are all more helpful than I am.
Intense dislike of Disqus can unite everyone, lol.
Your comments are all still here. Make sure your settings for Disqus are set so that “newest” is first, not “best.” It’s upper (of the comments section) left side, under the number of comments, it says “Sort by”
Your comments are here. I see them. Lots of us do. I replied to them. Lots of us did. Click on your username, and you’ll see them come up in a popup box.
When I see “Sort by Newest”, usually I rush to sort by newest before rushing to embarrass myself.
Gosh.
ha, I noticed this Tiffany changed out her name. I wonder why?
Oh! You have delete my comment off the other one so again I will be posting. But this time to 2 of them. One on each just for you.
You are not a doctor. Yes you was in the army but not now please get over yourself you are doing nothing but a witch hunt that. It really shows your mature level.. your what 50s or 60s. Grow up your not in high school anymore.
Do you by any chance have Dr. Amy and Harriet Hall mixed up? I mean, I know women doctors are hard to tell apart.
Plus Disqus is horribly buggy. Especially on long and busy comment threads. They usually reappear.
I know who this one is she has a Facebook group called fed up with natural child birth
And this one is not a doctor, was in the army, is 60 and also possibly still in secondary school?
But there are so few of them, right? Most of the family doctors and obstetricians are men, so… Oops.
A lady doctor? What’s next? Lady engineers and lawyers?
No one deleted your comment. If you don’t have Disqus set to show newest posts first, it will be somewhere in the long list of comments.
No, I was never in the Army, and neither was Harriet Hall. She is in the Air Force.
Yeah, but you might want to revisit your high school grammar lessons.
I’m assuming you obviously don’t know how taking a sample from a population works. When you take a sample it is very rare that you will ever obtain a statistic that is exactly the same as the entire population. This is of course the nature of statistics. If you need further detail please let me know but given you are an MD I believe you would have had training in this area in your science degree. So either you simply don’t remember or you are censoring your own information to suit your own ‘agenda’.
Do YOU understand how statistics work? The law of large numbers states that the actual population value is in fact the value you are MOST likely to get in a randomly drawn sample.
Is 396 classified a large enough sample to show the true population mean?
The true population mean is ALWAYS the most likely sample mean, regardless of the size of the sample. What you are asking — person who claims statistics are their world — is whether 396 is a large enough sample to make statements about whether the effects are at least 95% likely due to some true effect, rather than chance variation in the sample. The answer to that is easily calculable, but depends entirely on what you mean by “effect” and what you are comparing the sample mean to.
No. As I pointed out way at the bottom of this thread before it exploded, the sample size is small and the difference between this result and 0.7% is not statistically significant.
However, a 1.2% rate of rupture is NOT good, it’s NOT something to be bragging about, and it’s not a negligible risk. And as AuntBea pointed out, while that could be an overestimate, it could also be an underestimate.
Especially when the death rate from rupture is at least 1/5, right?
You’re exactly right. Of course you’ve posted on VBAC”facts” right and demanded they stop lauding these numbers as evidence of safety because their sample size is to small.
You have complained to VBAC”facts” about THEIR use of these numbers, right?
I assume you meant to reply to statistics lady and not me, right? I have no desire to go anywhere near VBAC facts, to complain or otherwise.
Sorry. Discus + iPod.
Yes that was for the parachuting statistics guru.
We sure do attract a lot of statistics gurus around these parts.
Context is what matters. Not if the rate is x, y or z but if the
rate of death or injury is higher at home or in the hospital and why that is.
Since statistics are your world, I am popping some popcorn right now in anticipation of your specific analysis of the stats that have been mentioned. I anxiously await to see you clarify this for those of us who are statistically impaired, such as myself.
1.2% anecdotal evidence of uterine rupture = 98.8% chance of no uterine rupture. I’d like those chances personally.
But would your baby?
Part of any risk assessment I do for my work includes looking not just the chance of something happening, but also the potential outcome. Risk of death = strong incentive to mitigate risks. So no, I don’t like that outcome personally and if I could lower the risk I’d do that.
“98.8% chance of no uterine rupture”. Those are not the odds for everyone.
“The bottom line is that an individual woman’s chance for a successful
VBAC and risk of a uterine rupture depend on her specific circumstances.” From Dr. Amy’s post on VBAC’s a few months ago. You should read it.
http://www.skepticalob.com/2014/04/all-vbacs-are-not-created-equal.html
If there was a 1.2% chance that I’d win the lottery I’d play every week for the rest of my life.
Why would you “like those chances”, when there is an easily accessible means for cutting it to 0.7%?
Let’s make this real fun.
If a 1.2% chance of a bad outcome is ok with you, then why not drive drunk? According to the US DOT, there are 27000 miles driven drunk for every DUI. Given that there are about 2 DUIs for every drunk driving accident, that means that there are about 18000 miles driven for DUI or accident.
So if you go to the bar and get drunk, and have a 9 mile drive home, that means that your chance of getting in an accident or even getting a DUI is 0.05% (5/10000). Do you like those chances? Come on, you have a 99.95% chance of making it home safe and sound, without any incident whatsoever (I’m not even talking about anyone dying; the chance that don’t hurt anyone (get into an accident) is more than 99.98%; only 1/100 of those accidents result in death)
Are you sure you’re a statistician? That seems hard to believe.
Jen Kamel doesn’t know facts. She knows agenda. She doesn’t want anyone to read this blog because if people stick around too long, they are going to find out that Jen Kamel is NOT an expert, that she should not be trusted and that her “facts” are not complete.
Jen Kamel is just like every other home birth advocate out there:
Censors and deletes to hide information from her readers – check!
Cherry picks information – check!
Promotes misinformation – check!
It’s disgusting and unethical.
I wonder how many people in her group thought/think she is a medical professional? She has a class she holds as a teacher that is a pretty penny and giving “facts” about VBAC. She promotes home births after cesareans and that in and of itself is dangerous.
She has had home births after cesareans herself.
This is all about making money.
I joined the group a few months ago and was appalled with some of the advice being given to members. When I spoke up once and said it was dangerous my comment was deleted. I was shocked and had no idea what I did wrong. I’m glad I was able to have a hand in stopping this woman spread more inaccurate “info” in her group and stop her admins too.
She is a teacher? Well judging by the issues her audience faces because of how she organises and executes her lectures and fails to tend to the specific needs of her audience like people being forced to be taking notes all the time, young mothers having to leave the class for lack of assistance with childcare or pay extra for another person to attend, she ain’t too good at that either.
You know, that’s a really good point. She’s doing a “class” for women who by definition will be mothers, and she can’t get a few volunteers or pay some people to provide childcare? Even if she charges extra for it? It would be pretty easy, wouldn’t it, to offer free classes for women who agree to come watch the little ones, or hook up with a local nursery school or college to get some employees or students willing to help out?
I’d even give her a pass if she charged for the child-minding, as long as she provided it.
anion “I’d even give her a pass if she charged for the child-minding, as long as she provided it.”
If she’s going to charge for child care, licensing and insurance will be required. Do you think she’s willing to go that far to provide it?
No, but that’s why I was thinking/wondering if perhaps asking local childcare providers who are already licensed/insured might be a solution.
I don’t really know the laws regarding that and I’m not advocating that she charge for childcare, I was just agreeing with Yugaya that she’s not addressing the needs of her attendees, and saying I can think of a few options to look into.
All you have to do is look at the bottom of her page and know she isn’t a medical professional. It says who she is and she also cites her sources. I never thought she was.
Charges money for useless courses that actually don’t improve your chances of VBAC while maintaining good outcomes. Check!
It’s a purge!
Apparently it hasn’t occurred to any of the geniuses currently parachuting in that a site that really deals in facts would not need to ensure the ideological purity of its readers.
And they’re mad at you instead of being upset with the creator and admins of the group! Even Jen’s own admin has suggested unassisted home birth to a mother who was not even a good candidate for a VBAC.
I’m happy to see them mass deleting members, I’m sure this will save a mother and/or baby.
Speaking of horrible people (see below), this admin is horrible!!!
Birth McCarthyism. Nice.
And this is just another glaring example of how incredibly unprofessional and untrustworthy Jen Kamel is. Do physicians have secret groups where information is dispensed only to a select few? Do we report data and then promptly delete it if we don’t like the response? Do we censor discussion and debate that hurts our feelings? No. We don’t. We own our history, our research, and our outcomes, for better or worse. Jen could never present at an academic surgical M&M. Jen likely couldn’t have that tough conversation with a patient or parent admitting that you made an error in judgement or treatment or diagnosis. And I highly doubt that Ms. Kamel would be able to swallow her pride and publish a study that demonstrated results contrary to what she had expected. And that, dear readers, is why she isn’t a physician and should not be trusted anymore than the homeless man who sits outside our ED and likes to dispense medical “advice” to passers by.
But, her seminars dp count as continuing education credits for NARM. Horrifying, isn’t it?
You are such a horrible, HORRIBLE person.
Yes, being against preventable injuries and deaths is such a terrible thing.
Nothing substantive to add? Actually care to factually refute anything said?
You’d rather a nice person that tells you lies and misinformation and doesn’t understand some of the basics of risks/informed consent?
Sure that can be arranged, let me introduce you to Jen Kamel of VBACFacts. When I am putting myself in a potential life/death situation I always choose friendly over factual too.
Yes yes, trying to help women make choices that end in a screaming healthy baby and a healthy mother makes her Satan.
I have no words to express my feelings toward you. You are a really repugnant person, ZERO professional, and people that follow you are mostly ignorants like you. You need to get a life, for some reason you are an EX Dr. That personally I dont think you were a doctor before.
“for some reason”
Take 2 secs to actually read her bio. She chose to stay home with her children.
Now do you care to actually attempt to refute anything Dr Amy wrote with, I don’t know, FACTS, or are you just here to name call and flounce away?
What no way I will never take a second to read about this empty life person bio, are you kidding me? Hahahahahhaha THERE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS TO READ. Like HONEY BOO BOO MOMS BIO, that will be MORE IMPORTANT than this empty life person bio.. Hahahahaha geezz
I imagine you are already quite familiar with Honey Boo Boo, her mother, and their respective bios. Reading your comments is like trying to eat a stale, grammatically-challenged, badly misspelled Cheeto.
Again, your posts do not help any point you’re trying to make regarding the ignorance of other people. Dunning-Kruger effect, indeed.
So you’re going to insult someone based upon what you think they are about instead of actually reading and finding our what they ACTUALLY are about.
Figures – I thought a lot of the people that had come from VBACFacts were projecting – now you’ve confirmed it.
Is there a support group where you go back after commenting like that here where you get other crotch-fruit mommas to congratulate you for commenting like that here as if you have accomplished something by commenting like that here ?
Why would you think I care about how you feel toward me?
Haha If you replied if because you do. Is so poor you education and knowledge that you have to get info from trolls because you are NOT able to at least read what ACOG says… Shame on you.. I feel so sorry about your insignificant life..
“Is so poor you education and knowledge that you have to get info from trolls because you are NOT able to at least read what ACOG says..”
I guess I’m not educated in whatever language you are speaking.
If you’re main point is highlighting a person’s ignorance, I highly suggest proof reading before posting.
But is she an EX-parrot?
Oh good grief. Monty Python parrot sketch – just substitute midwife for the pet shop owner and baby for the parrot… It’s late and my sense of humour just took a dark turn..
Still confused as to how 1% is ‘high’ when just BEING PREGNANT in itself has a 1% chance of placental abrubtion…you women are trolls with nothing better to do I find your childish bickering humorous.
To all of you inquiring about my HBA4C, I live literally two minutes from a major hospital and my mother is a nurse. I know the risks of my vbac but also know a fifth surgery would be more dangerous. My current OB even stated this but they do not allow attempts usually after two or more due to medical malpractice lawsuits. He said there is just too many loopholes…Government=healthcare=banks=church…so on and so on.
Amy you’re just trying to have someone see your brown nosing blog and hope they feel compelled enough to speak about you. Its a pipe dream lmfao
I have lost a child due to medical negligence and lies on my medical file, your heartless mockery of grieving parents really hit a nerve so I havent really read through much but I do want to restate that you are a egotistical cunt and I’m sorry your life is so empty you have to cut down others to feel important. You are nothing short of sanctimonious.
We will continue to rock our natural births, free our nipples and be selfish uneducated attention seeking granola hippies while you hate your life some more. I am washing my hands of this ignorant bull shit lol
Well, I’ve already rocked 4 vaginal births and you’ve rocked none. Shouldn’t you be worshipping me as a birth goddess and feeling sorry that you are not more like me?
All of your responses are childish? I couldn’t pay someone to worship someone as pea brained as you are. You may have had four vaginal, but I absolutely adore my life …not something you can say. Like I said, people who do what you do are miserable…go to my profile and look at my second profile picture(NOW THATS A GODESS :D). Six pregnancies, four ebf babies and four major surgery later…I am more beautiful than I ever would’ve dreamed! Come 2015 I’ll have experienced both sides of birth! Go me 😀 ^_^
I truly hope you aren’t singing a different tune come 2015.
Will us just spoil your parade of glitter pissing unicorns if I am? Add me on Facebook and see me in all my glory internet trolls. Here yee, here yee lmfao
Pretty sure you don’t know me (if it helps, which it likely won’t, I had a NCB with a lovely midwife at a birth center). I was just being honest. I’ve worked with kids who have sustained traumatic birth injuries such as HIE. It’s terrible. As you shared with us, you are familiar with tragedy. I just don’t understand how you would be okay with the risk. That’s your own thing though and your right. I just genuinely hope it goes well.
So, you’re actually the more troll-like person here. You kind of sound like even more of an idiot when you don’t use the term correctly.
I have no desire to see your glory TYVM. Narcissist much?
I hope your baby lives. You are still risking its life however just so you can crow on Facebook and you’ve said as much just now. How shallow.
You pretty much clarified it all right there. “See me in all my glory.” Sounds pretty selfish. And anyone who think s they can judge someone based their FB page is hmmm well only seeing what people want you to see. I can respect your concerns about having another c-section, its a tough situation to be in, but being 2 mins away means nothing when a baby is floating around in your abdomen after you uterus has ruptured and he/she is not getting any oxygen. You have every right to a home birth. It sucks being it a situation where malpractice insurance makes decisions for you. But I don’t think it makes sense to allow yourself to believe that being 2 mins away will make a difference. A woman down the hall in L&D is like 5 mins away from Labor bed to being on the OR table and having baby out with surgery. Does the hospital 2 minutes away have recent lab results from a type and cross to have blood on hand for when you arrive? How fast are the ambulances where you live? if you have someone drive you can you walk to the car nearly naked while having tetanic contractions from a placental abruption? I am sorry that you lost a child due to medical negligence. I mean this from the bottom of my heart. I can’t imagine losing my babies. You have every right to choose your own path but there is risk involved. That is clear by the data gathered on VBAC Facts. But that risk goes up at home. If you are okay with that risk, then ok. But it is there. The fact that you want people to see your Facebook page to know you were successful in your VBAC indicates that you feel you will without a doubt be successful, which does not suggest an understanding of the risk. We take risks everyday yes, but 1% of 100 is 1. Doesn’t that seem like a lot to you, get a room of female friends, family, co-workers, church goers, you can easily get 100, and then imagine one of them having a uterine rupture when with child. Dr. Amy wants women to truly understand the risk, to have all the facts and then to make their own choices. keep reading, keep reading a lot. Yes some articles may be snarky but just keep reading.
People who adore their lives tend to be pretty accepting, in my experience.
If all goes well you’ll be crowing about it all over the internet, and I’ll breathe a sigh of relief but then feel concerned about other women who will be guided into risk by your hubris. If all goes badly, history tells us you will survive but your baby will not, and you will either say the baby wasn’t meant to live, or will become violently anti everything you are now passionate about.
Despite the risk to others, I’m hoping for crowing, because that will mean a live baby.
I won’t hold against you the hateful response you are likely to post to this comment.
Good lord, you’re obnoxious. And this from your original post: “so I havent really read through much” is precisely why no one should bother to consider what you have to say.
Your attempt at a home birth after 4 CS is nothing short of utter stupidity. It doesn’t matter if the hospital is right next door – if you’re in the middle of labor and something serious happens, figure out how long you can hold your breath before passing out. That’s about how long your baby will have.
But what do us fear mongers know? Clearly having more children in the fashion that you damn well want is more important than your life and the future of the children you already have. And you think Dr. Amy’s the c***.
Push 15 babies out your glorious vajayjay. You’re still going to be old wrinkled and in depends one day. Seems your entire self worth is tied up in your breasts and your uterus.
“people who do what you do are miserable…”
You know who is really miserable? A woman who loses her perfect baby because the hospital was “only two minutes away”. Two minutes is an eternity in NRP time
Didn’t you call Dr. Amy a cunt earlier, yet her responses are childish?
BTW, it’s pretty hilarious that you’ve now removed your name from your comments and hidden most of the stuff that was on your Facebook page when you originally showed up here, while at the same time urging us all to look at said page and preening yourself like a vapid peacock about how beautiful you are and how awesome and how much like a goddess [note spelling; it’s two Ds, not one] you are.
I added you AND messaged you on Facebook, I want you to join me on my journey Miss Pouty Pants!
“Two minutes away”…. that doesn’t really mean much. How long will it take for you to get into an operating room if you rupture?
Anna lived a few miles from the hospital….. it wasn’t close enough when her uterus ruptured at her attempted HBAC. Her story is in the link below.
Choose what you want for your birth….. but I hope you are aware of the risks (UR isn’t the only risk involved for out-of-hospital TOLAC):
MANA study home birth TOLAC mortality rate = 4.75/1000
Hospital TOLAC mortality rate = 1.3/1000
http://whatifsandfears.blogspot.com/2014/04/mana-study-part-4-vaginal-birth-after.html
Good luck to you and your baby.
You keep saying you’re leaving…
Don’t you have 4 lowly csection children to tend to? I bet you can’t WAIT to show them your VAGINA baby. “oh yes honey, mommy loves you, but little Jeffy here…he came out of my vagina and that just makes him the bestest!”
Omg ignorant. Dont make stupid assumptions.
?? Care to expand on that?
Christine, I know that your mother being a nurse might make you feel more secure but is she currently practicing as an OB nurse? Just being a nurse isn’t enough if things go south. An nurse who works in ortho or neuro or med/surg will not be able to spot a crisis that is specific to labor and delivery as fast.
I don’t understand your government ect equals malpractice lawsuit.
I am sorry for your loss. There are many loss parents here.
Two minutes is a very long time when a crisis is happening. Getting a laboring woman off a bed or out of a tub in labor is hard, trying to walk to the car is hard and a car ride could take more than two minutes. And that is if the laboring woman can walk. I apprenticed with some of the best known midwives in my area and saw some women who should have never attempted a homebirth. I would question very much the ethics of a midwife who would be willing to attend a woman with your medical history.
Griffin’s mother (apparently a VBAC”facts”member) was a nurse. Didn’t save him from dying after a uterine rupture at a failed HBA2C.
I did not know she was a nurse. It really doesn’t reassure me when I hear there is going to be a nurse at a homebirth-I always want to ask what kind of nurse, working how long and where?
HBA2C – that’s insane. And so, so sad.
Did this person just say that she will continue being a “selfish uneducated attention seeking granola hippie?”
Yup. That pretty much sums it up.
Can someone back up that statistic that 1% of all pregnancies end in a rupture? I’m pretty sure that is totally made up.
Maybe she is referring to overall VBAC rupture rates which I believe are 1 in 200 so 0.5% so that group did not do better or even as good as expected.
Her “conversation” morphed to abruption.
If you’re trying to cleanse yourself of ignorant bullshit, you ought to try washing your brain instead.
I live literally 3 minutes away from my children’s daycare. Meaning, More often than not, I can get from my house to the daycare, or daycare to my house, in 3 minutes. Except yesterday, when there were two or three cars ahead of me at one intersection, and it took 5. Or when it is raining, and it takes 7. Or when I hit both red lights, and it takes 10. Those things happen often enough that I don’t give myself just 3 minutes to get to daycare, I plan on it taking 7. And let’s just forget about the time that a fender bender managed to totally block the intersection, and it took more than half an hour. Also, daycare is on the same road as the high school, so if I’m going anytime around school starting or letting out in the afternoon, I can count on it taking 20 minutes.
And, being honest, the 3 minutes doesn’t include the time it takes to load my 3 kids in the car and get them buckled in, or the time to get them unbuckled on the other end. When all 3 kids are being basically cooperative, and don’t forget something in the house, that adds at least 3 minutes to the time.
Is the 2 minutes you find such comfort in 2 minutes driving in good traffic and sunny weather? Or are there times of day when traffic is worse? How quickly can you walk 9 months pregnant, in labor, with a painfully ruptured uterus?
“I live literally two minutes from a major hospital”
With the size of entrance, parking and usual mishmash of adjoining buildings that go with major hospitals over here where I live, to live two minutes from it you would have to live somewhere on the premises. Literally.
When I was pregnant, I had a problem on a weekend, so my OB told me to go to the ER to get checked. Thankfully it turned out fine, however it did take at least 10 minutes to get from the hospital gate to the actual door.
We tried to drive in, and there was this giant laundry truck completely blocking the road, so we had to turn around and attempt to approach from the other direction, which we weren’t sure how to do.
Stuff like that happens. Even when you’re two minutes away.
Good point!
I was in hospital during my TOLAC and still when I ruptured the team could not get my son out quickly enough.
As a mother whose baby died, let me assure you that it doesn’t matter a damn how your baby is delivered, all that matters is that they are alive! Healthy is a plus, but alive and safe is the goal.
What in the do you mean by two minutes away? You cannot and do not mean “two minutes from realizing there is an emergency to delivery of child into the hands of a NICU team.” That’s impossible. It would take more than 2 minutes to rescue you, if you’d been in the hospital the entire time you were in labor.
How about this? Try holding your breath for two minutes. Then try holding it for as long as it would actually take for you to get the hospital and in surgery, if your uterus ruptured. Don’t cheat. 45 minutes, maybe? Try to get a feel for how your baby will feel in those moments.
I sincerely pray that you and your child don’t die from your idiocy. Birth is not something to be “rocked”. What a childish concept. Simply unspeakably juvenile. It’s shocking to me that people think they’re qualified to guard precious little lives, when they care more about their own egos than taking every precaution for their children.
You’d think with as many times as you’d been pregnant and with the fact that you’d already lost a child, that you wouldn’t want to take chances with another. I guess your children truly are just a game to you.
If you do kill your child with this stunt, are you going to decide it was just meant to be? Will you accept all hospital interventions to save your own life, after sacrificing your child on this absolutely nonsensical altar of mommyhood? If the hospital has to remove your uterus and replace your blood supply a few times, are you going to feel even a twinge of guilt that your own negligence caused this situation, and took these resources away from someone else?
Whoops, I just realized this post is old. You know what’s sad, though? I could still copy and paste this rant to plenty of people just like this crazy woman, without changing any of the details. It would apply, over and over.
Why would anyone cares whether her baby lives or dies take advice from an unlicensed doctor who is probably not current in practice recommendations? ACOG, NIH, and WHO have all discussed the VBAC as being a safe option for most women. Even World News with Diane Sawyer did a piece on the primary cesarean and how dangerous it is to have them repeatedly. Have you read anything besides hijacked FB posts lately? Come out of the hermit hole, lady.
You might be surprised to learn that Dr. Amy isn’t against hospital VBAC for low-risk women in consultation with their obstetrician.
Guess that doesn’t matter when she isn’t LICENSED.
And Jen Kamel is licensed how? And got her education where?
How does my stance differ from all the licensed obstetricians in the US? Oh, right, it doesn’t.
You are desperately trying to ignore the key point. Jen Kamel deleted reference to my post because she KNOWS the statistics are horrible and she didn’t want the gullible readers of her sites to find out. If she could have explained them away, she would have.
The point is that it is a closed group of people and the statistics seem to just be theirs. Not a national survey. Not thousands of women’s results. They seem to be documenting out of sheer curiosity within JUST the group of women in the forum. So why did you feel the need to out them and holler that their stats are horrible? If someone posted a poll about anything else you wouldn’t give a crap.
No, the point is that you are desperately searching for reasons to ignore what is right in front of your face:
1. VBACFacts boasted about a hideous rupture rate
2. When I pointed out that the rupture rate was hideous, they deleted any reference to my claim
3. They are counting on desperate, gullible people like you to believe what they want you to believe, not what is right in front of your face.
Obviously I did not see your post as I am not a member. However. A 1.2% rupture rate means that 98.8% did NOT rupture. Furthermore, just having had a primary cesarean puts one at risk for rupture ANYWAY. It can happen DURING pregnancy without labor present. As an OB, did you tell your patients that? How would you handle that when a woman says: “I’d like to VBAC”…”God, no, there’s a chance you’ll rupture!”…”But I can rupture either way.” And she’s right, isn’t she?
The chances of rupture are much, much higher during active labor, and you know it.
And again with the same straw man. No one has said that VBACs are necessarily the wrong choice, in fact they are a good choice for many women.
1 in 83 women ruptured. With 25 HBACs per month, we should expect them to post a maternal mortality every 3.3 months. They won’t though, because dead moms don’t come back to tell their birth stories.
Actually, the ACOG supports VBACS with no problem.
Under appropriate circumstances, of course, include proper low-risk conditions and, more importantly, with proper resources.
I really don’t know where you people get the idea that a) everyone is always opposed to vbacs, or that b) vbacs being available for many women means everyone can have them.
It is a good example for pointing out serious flaws in the logic of what NCB preaches: that (hideous) UR statistic occurred within a group of people who trust birth and their uteri above all else. If there was any point in trusting the birth magic over modern medicine, their stats would be way, way better.
This blog is devoted to childbirth. No, there probably wouldn’t be a post about it here if someone posted a poll about, say, the tax code.
Because Jen is parading them around as if they are good?
Jeez, is it really that hard?
Actually she never said they were good … They are “exciting”, “wonderful”, and “empowering”.
Funny, NONE of those adjectives ever came to my mind during any UR and it’s resuscitative aftermath that I participated in.
Looking back on it though, I feel completely empowered that I never actually crapped my pants while snatching those babies back from the jaws of death!
From the amount of people jumping in saying the same type of thing, it’s apparently QUITE hard!
Ha! How funny that the moment you have to actually discuss the data in question it’s all, they’re just inside stats, what does it matter, etc. So classic.
Wow, I came on here to see your argument and your response, and your lack of intelligence speaks for itself. If you understood the intent and the outcomes of this group you would be educated on a few things yourself. 1.) it’s a place of support. Do you understand the purpose of AA or any similar support groups? In birth, things are so unpredictable whether you are in a hospital or home setting. YOUR job (or maybe not yours since you dont actually hold any medical authority), is to MITIGATE RISK, not take away options. 2.) you are so hung up on the “statistics”… Don’t you understand not all women are so narcissistic and have so much free time to spend on the internet to get on and report her birth story? I never reported that I had two successful VBACs in a hospital setting with an OBGYN who refutes the ridiculousness of your page. You can thank him – i learned about you through him. Regardless I pay a lot of thanks to that VBAC group because I decreased risks by not electing to have surgeries for my second and third births.
One day you will be held accountable for all the berating and abusing you have done. Your ignorance of what birth is (as well as others like you) has been a primary cause to the rise in maternal and fetal problems resulting in death and catastrophes. You are a mockery and insult to our country and one day you will be held accountable for your foolish posts and rants.
Perhaps if VBAC”facts” was not now a “secret” group and engaged in discussion we might better understand the “intent”. But seeing as they choose to delete dissent and operate in secrecy, you’ll forgive the misunderstandings.
I can only hope that anyone on VBAC”facts” that encouraged Griffin’s mom in her failed HBA2C –>UR–> dead baby will answer for that too. You weren’t one of them, were you?
“Support” does not mean deleting accurate information that may cause members to rethink why they are there. I’m pretty sure AA doesn’t act like sobriety is all sunshine and rainbows and kick people out when they have dissenting opinions.
Or try to tell people that uncontrolled alcoholism isn’t really all that bad. I mean, you’re more likely than not to avoid early death from cirrhosis, right?
Ok, your last paragraph is hysterical. Both “ha-ha” and “unhinged”. Dr. Amy is the reason for poor maternal and fetal outcomes? And I suppose flying pigs will be delivering my mail tomorrow?
And this: “you are so hung up on the “statistics””
Oh yes, those tricky numbers that tell about risks and benefits, that improve outcomes – such a horrible things to be hung up on.
Finally, if I had an OBGYN who trashed what Dr. Amy posts (because although I happen to like her just fine, the facts and reasoning are why I stick around), I’d be in the market for a new doc.
“ACOG, NIH, and WHO have all discussed the VBAC as being a safe option for most women.”
Does “a safe option for most women” in your statement include the stuntbirther down in the comments bragging about her upcoming HBA4C? Not one of these organisations would ever “discuss” her as a good or even a potential candidate for a VBAC attempt out of hospital.
Gosh, are you really this gullible?
Jen Kamel didn’t have a license to let it lapse in the first place, lady, yet you’re ready to trust HER?
Yes, you look about this gullible. Brilliant logic, haha.
If Diane Sawyer is for it, count me in!!! On second thought maybe I’ll just ask my doctor that knows my medical history…
I believe everybody here agrees that VBAC is a safe option for most women. Pretty sure the ACOG doesn’t support HBAC though.
Nope, they don’t. And none of the reputable medical sites (Mayo, for example) recommend it either.
Yeah, I don’t think my sarcasm translated very well.
Ha! It did, I think I was too annoyed with the original poster to acknowledge the snark. 🙂
You should read the ACOG’s practice bulletin on VBACs, you’ll see they are very cautious in their gung-ho-ness.
Is that far enough out of the hermit hole for you?
Rumour has it Dr. A practiced vbacs in her day. Closely monitored ones in the hospital, not at home.
What is CBAC?
C-section birth after c-section. I think this is substituted for failed VBAC, but I could be mistaken.
That’s what I assumed, it’s just a weird way of wording it.
Wow, if I had read through the entirety of the screen shot, I would have answered my own question. **face palm***
Are we just going to ignore ACOG’s stance on VBACs, gestational period, and induction or are they misinformed/uneducated as well? Maybe we should also ignore the fact that UR rates increase continuously after 40 weeks (according to the VBACfacts website and an unknown variable here)… Seriously, if you are going to knock something, do at least a little research through an organization made of ob/gyns…
I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to say. According to ACOG, VBAC under appropriate monitoring is a reasonable option for most, although not all, women with a history of cesarean birth.
Induction at term can help prevent the primary cesarean. I will give credit where credit is due, VBACfacts does state that appropriate use of induction can increase the chances of successful vaginal birth. (Unlike ICAN, which still firmly believes in the imaginary cascade of interventions.)
Or are you talking about induced VBACs? That’s a fuzzier case. Induction appears to both increase the risk of rupture and increase the chances of success.
Induced VBACs are still OKAY with ACOG and the little wording of “at term” means 39-42 weeks according to ACOG (not 39 or you have to be indicted or have another csection because I’m your doctor and I’m scared of an increase in risk)… Is the point in this post not to bash VBAC Facts Community for their horrendous statistics on their small scale “study” or am I mistaken? You can’t bash a community who wants to promote accurate knowledge because they aren’t going to tell you that you’re going to DIE because of the UR rate or because you want to attempt a homebirth. It’s your decision to birth the way you want and not bash somebody because they want to take risks you don’t and vice versa.
Honestly, I think you’re misreading those guidelines, or reading too much into them. ACOG’s guidelines basically say, “do X unless there’s a reason to do something else,” and it seems like you’re reading, “It’s always best to do X.”
When everything in the pregnancy is normal, there’s no need to induce until about 41 weeks, but there are lots of situations in which induction at 39 weeks or even earlier is the safest option for mother and baby.
Well, the good news is that you probably won’t die during HBAC, but if you happen to rupture, your baby almost certainly will. So yes, I have a huge problem with some self-proclaimed expert promoting HBAC as an alternative when there are clear reasons why an OB or CNM are not recommending a VBAC.
I will be having a home birth after four cesareans in the near future ;)….Amy you’re a cunt. ‘Nuff said.
You are the one seeming to elevate cunts to some magical baby passage. ‘Nuff said.
Troll ^_^ …Get a life, misery will not make me its company. You Karen are a train wreck of misery!
Oops, this isn’t your blog, and since I agree with this blog and all it stands for, I’m not the troll here.
She’s also not the one calling people cunts.
Yeah maybe she didn’t read my post all the way to the ending punctuation mark. Clearly I was speaking from an anatomical standpoint.
I’m sorry you’re so angry (Karen & Karen? LMFAO) OMG.. Not only is Amy a wackjob so are you apparently o.O. Amy has even taken it so far as to harass mothers whose babies have passed away, and you support her? Sorry excuse for ‘women’. I’ll pray you all don’t have daughters and if you do … God help them.
Could we have a prayer for the OBs and CNMs too while you are at it?
The OBs and CNMs she’s counting on to try to save her life, and her baby’s, if her stuntbirth goes wrong. ( they need a prayer or two I agree)
You mean the evil OB, CNM, RN, Anesthesiologist and Neonatologists who are unknowingly at her disposal as she rolls through the hospital doors with a catastrophe? The providers who will evaluate, react and do everything within their means to save everything (healthy intact baby) she risked for a birth experience? The ones who are ‘only 10 minutes’ away from home, but use warp speed to assemble staff, IV access, prepped OR, blood products with hardly a moment to enter her name into the hospital system to access aforementioned services in time to save her or her baby’s life? Yep, prayers for all. Debriefing to follow.
Once again, how am I angry? I’m not the one calling someone a cunt, casting slurs about my gender, questioning my abilities as a mother and calling people wackjobs.
Why so cranky?
And as for harrassing women whose babies have passed away – who does speak up for those babies who have been harmed by clueless midwives, poor decisions and misinformed parents? Does VBACfacts support them or do they delete those ones too?
Guys, she put “women” in quotes. I guess I should double-check my anatomy to make sure I didn’t accidentally become a man.
Apparently, you aren’t a woman unless pushing a baby out of your vaginal is the crowning experience of your life.
“Crowning” — I see what you did there!
I’ve heard that if you don’t push enough babies out of your vagina, you could grow a penis instead. Beware!
How did those babies pass btw? They didn’t just disappear into the ether…
Yes. You can tell who the really angry people are by the way they don’t rush in and immediately call other women cunts.
Oh, wait…
(BTW, I have two daughters. I don’t teach them that the right way to disagree with someone is by immediately calling them names–offensive, sexist names at that. Because I don’t see “women” as a pejorative so immediately choose a gendered insult So which one of us is a bad mother to daughters, there?)
Please elaborate.
Although I should caution you, posting information or discussing their cases, even in a non-flattering manner, on one’s own blog does not constitute “harassment,” unless you know of instances where she has contacted loss mothers directly.
(I have noted this before, any loss mothers that are reading Dr Amy’s comments about them are doing so because THEY chose to come to here, and in order to do that, someone actually had to tell them that this discussion was going on, since they are generally not regular readers)
OMG! Like, two women with the same name?! OMFG lmao!!!!!! I just love your keen sense of humour; we must be kindred spirits. OMG ZOMG.
Great penny farthing by the way; they’re almost as retro as dying of puerperal fever…
I think it’s funny that my daughter hasn’t even started kindy yet, and not only does she have a better vocabulary, she can also do a better job of defending her arguments when challenged.
You need to step up your game, Chrissy.
Christine, seriously – get a handle on the usage of “troll”, or just stop using it. It doesn’t help your already pitiful case b
Just had a thought-what if ‘cunt’ is actually a positive thing to be CA’s world, used in the way the rest of us would say ‘sweetie’ or ‘angel’? We might all be desperately misunderstanding her?
On the other hand, we might understand her perfectly…
Don’t forget to post your triumphant birth story on the internet and link to it!
Also – pics or it didn’t happen.
Video please. So many women still need to get properly ‘educated’ (by personal anecdotes).
Live stream would be better.
It’s a HBA4C! Of course it will be videotaped, photographed, tweeted, and Facebooked! Wouldn’t want the whole world to miss out on this intimate event.
May as well brag about drunk driving without a car seat.
I don’t think we have to make YCCP run the numbers, but I’m almost positive that one instance of drunk driving with no car seats is significantly safer than HBA4C.
I don’t know about the car seat effect, but one instance of drunk driving is 50 times safer than childbirth in the US for the mother (and that is using the overall rate, not a high-risk rate)
Well, I am not impressed, not until she gets to HBA5C I mean this has been done already. Boring. Maybe birth whilst skydiving. And mom’s have a human RIGHT to birth while skydiving doncha know?
When the parachute opens, it helps the baby descend!
Love this, you know the higher you go the more gravity there is… squatting in a free fall… the umbilical cord always did remind my of a bungee cord.
How do you feel about the risk involved?
And? Tell us more! Like, what’s your favorite color? And what did you have for breakfast this morning?
Good luck with that – and I mean it, you will need lots of luck because you will be nowhere near adequate and timely medical care in case of emergency.
Could you tell me which midwives will be attending?
Asking for a friend. TIA!
As you prepare yourself for your HBA4C endeavor, please tuck away this little message to give to your mother. In this message to another grieving grandmother of HBAC loss, you’re really taking a chance that she is going to need it. If you actually read through it, just maybe, you’ll put away the name calling and understand why there are so many of us that are here.
I say this with my deepest sincerity, speaking for myself and possible many others
here…I wish you weren’t here.
I wish you were at home with your daughter and new grandson. I wish you were rocking James in your arms and inhaling the wonder of new baby smells. I wish you were at the park with your granddaughters so your daughter could nap with her
newborn son. I wish you were falling asleep at night wondering who James would look like on his first day of kindergarten or whose personality he would have. I’ve never met you and never will, but still wish upon you all the happiness that is being a grandmother.
Instead you’re here, a place I never wanted you to be and you wish you’d never known existed. You’re among strangers here. People you’ve never met whose hearts ache for the loss of James. People who have shed tears and fallen asleep with his death not far from their thoughts. People who have never come within a thousand
miles of where James was born, but nonetheless come here to mourn his loss.
None of us wanted to be ‘here’ and most of us wish ‘here’ didn’t have to exist. We are here as mothers, fathers and families. We are here as doulas, nurses, CNM’s and physicians. We are here as attorneys, professors and psychologists. We are
here because each of us has been touched in one manner or another, personally or professionally, by the death or damage done when unqualified providers get lost in their ideals or ‘trust birth’ at the expense of families.
I wish you weren’t here, but your commonality with others here cannot be undone. Your life will forever be affected by what your family shares with too many others here. That is why we are here. We are here because the pain of a loss never stops and because the frustration with preventable deaths never end.
My deepest condolences to you and your family. I’m so sorry you are here and so sorry for your loss.
That made me all teary-eyed. It’s lovely.
I sincerely hope you’re not passing it on because someone had to pass it to you at some point. If you are, I’m so sorry for your loss.
It was a comment in a previous post to a grandmother who came to SOB after she lost her grandson in her daughter’s attempt to HBA2C in the care of CPMs.
When comments come across from people like the OP C. Alma with bitterness and angst, sometimes they need a little reminder of why ‘here’ exists and a dose of reality of what devastation lies behind their decisions and beliefs that less than 1% risk of rupture.
So? Who cares? It’s your life and your baby’s life on the stake. This planet is overpopulated anyway and since all those evil technologies started ruining the balance by alotting life to those nature would gladly kill, I won’t lose my sleep over your very personal decision.
Wonder why you felt you needed to share.
Thanks for dropping in and proving that homebirth advocates are ignorant, arrogant buffoons. You make my point much better than I ever could.
I’m going to assume that you are a poe. No one could really be this stupid, right? Or do you relish the idea of you and your baby dying, likely in front of your other children?
Wow, that’s vile, so much for feminism huh?
I lose all respect for people who call other women ‘cunts’, it is absolutely despicable and leads to absolutely no good discourse.
Hopefully you’ll get to be one of the women bragging about how well it went, but be aware of the risks and transfer at the first sign of trouble please.
Me too. Revolting.
I used to think so, but then I decided to rethink cunt. Calling a man a dick is rude and immature, but it’s not revolting. If being a dick is not revolting, then neither is being a cunt. (I realize, of course, that I can only reclaim this word for myself in my own mind. I do know it carries more emotional weight in our society).
Dunno.
I’m in Oz so I can’t speak for anywhere else, but I’d say ‘Dick’ could be someone’s name; and it is possible to be a ‘bit of a dick’ and be an okay person. Girls sometimes, in a joky way, call other girls a dick. So being a dick is kind of on the edge socially, but hardly a disaster.
When a male of any age uses cunt-to a man or woman-it is undoubtedly intended as deeply pejorative and insulting. And I think the same is intended when women use it.
Which is what makes it weird that CA uses it ( I assume pejoratively) when you think how enthusiastic she is about the birth canal.
I agree; so much of language is illogical. “Cunt” should be no more offensive than “dick”; however calling a woman a “cunt” has a history of being degrading and even threatening. It shouldn’t have those connotations just based on what it means, but it does. I think it’s similar to the differences between the terms “n*gger” and “whitey.” Both are just colors, but the former is associated with violence and exploitation, so they can never be equivalent terms.
Depends where in Australia you are I suppose. I’ve worked on some pretty remote mine sites and “you fucking cunt” was a term of endearment used for your good mates and fishing buddies.
Interesting.
Though I guess ‘bastard’ can also be affectionate, though ‘arsehole’ usually isn’t.
And you are a misogynist. Nuff said. Good luck risking your baby’s life!
Afterwards, assuming no one dies, are you going to change your name to Christina HBA4C Alma?
Nah, then she’d need to keep changing it:
2HBA4C
3HBA4C
4HBA4C
etc.
Veeback is a lovely girl’s name, though.
I actually know someone named that. She’s from Finland.
lovely advertisement for the good manners and sensibility of the homebirth crowd….
An HBA4C?! Wow!
And if something goes wrong, you’re staying home of course under the wonderful care of your midwives, right? Those MEEN doctors at the hospital don’t know what they’re doing at all. They couldn’t possibly help save your life or the life of your baby. TRUST BIRTH! STAY HOME!
This from a woman who referred to her children as her “crotch fruits” on her FB page…
Reading that FB page is like wading through the lowest common denominator, isn’t it?
Well, they can only aspire to be crotch fruit, can’t they? More like abdomen fruit.
Ew that’s close to MRA language.
That is just…so wrong.
Personally I prefer the term “fuck trophies.”
“Amy you’re a cunt”
These “HBAC at all cost” types really are fixated on the vagina aren’t they? Very confusing to me. At times they seem to venerate the vagina, at times they use it as an insult. Very confusing indeed.
Phew, well after that powerful, eloquent, well argued, thoughtful and insightful comment, I’m totally on board with you gals. You’ve won me over!!!!!!
NOT.
Despite my earlier snark I sincerely hope you and your baby are both okay and that nothing happens during the delivery that traumatises anyone else who is around at the time.
My question is this-in the event of catastrophe, like rupture at home, have you considered whether you will accept life or health saving medical treatment for yourself? In that case, tragically, your baby is likely to be dead or seriously damaged by the time it can be delivered. How far are you prepared to go to trust your body? All the way to wherever it is you think you and your baby will go after death? Or not so far?
I appreciate it’s a hard question, and even a distasteful one, but I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts.
I can feel the love for your other children seeping through your ignorant post. Think long and hard about them when you factor in the risks.
http://thewoodsmama.com/the-journey-to-my-water-home-birth-after-four-caesareans/the-home-water-birth-of-thomas-ethan-woods-after-four-c-sections-at-41-weeks-10lb-1oz-12112013/
This is a regular commenter in VBACfacts.
HWBA4C seriously, yeah she’s real informed. Of course I automatically side eye anything with Mama in the title as I feel it’s condescending.
She got everything she wanted-including 5 midwives in her home when she is complaining that the system is stretched to breaking point-and she is still complaining. One of them had to come 30 miles through the weather that was too bad for them to take the baby out in. And on top of all that she still feels disappointed. How self absorbed can one person be?
Some women are never going to be satisfied with their births no matter how it happens because if even one minor thing mars their “experience” then they’re going to complain, some women are just never satisfied.
She complained because she had the birth of her dreams and taking her baby in would spoil it for her.
She also complained because she had the birth of her dreams and NOT taking the baby in for a check spoiled it for her.
She is a birthzilla.
Well that’s one way of putting it…
Plain and simple, it is up to the pregnant mother to educate herself. I do not believe that any online resource is free of bias and I do also follow the posts on VBAC facts. I am a well educated person and will continue to educate myself on what the safest and healthiest choice is for me and my baby whether that be a RCS or a VBAC. Your online site is clearly bias toward the thought that csection is best regardless of the fact that women are born with a birth canal in which to birth their babies. I hope that any woman preparing for childbirth takes the time to see what you and other online resources are… just a place for people with strong Personal opinions to try and speak as loudly as possible… and in your case with a strong dose of bitterness and cruelty as well. Good luck to you as you try to make your way to some form of happiness.
How did you get the idea that the site is biased towards c-section? I tend to think of this site as anti-misinformation, personally.
My cynicism suggests that because we don’t shame women for caesareans, it’s seen as we’re endorsing them for all women regardless of circumstances.
I believe NCB is having a hard time grasping the concept that potential risk that turns out to be only a potential risk is not a risk that never existed at all. All that moaning about unnecessary interventions and c-sections stems from that basic misstep in their logic – unless your uterus ruptured to pieces, hey you were never at any real risk of UR and everything that was done to avoid it was birth rape.
By that logic, I should challenge carseat laws in court. I’ve never been involved in an accident with my child in the car, therefore the car seat law is a needless restriction of my freedom.
Yup. That’s what it is.
I’m one of the people here who decided that FOR ME, a CS was better than VB, and no, I didn’t want to go into labour and see how it went.
Easy surgery, easy recovery, great experience, wouldn’t change a thing, definitely would want ERCS, no interest in VBAC.
Now that is ME saying that FOR MYSELF VB and VBAC were never things I particularly cared about or wanted and my CS was amazing.
I know that not everyone feels the same way, and if you are a good candidate for a VBAC I’ll wish you luck with your TOLAC and hope you get what you want, and I’ll commiserate if you had a less than great CS experience.
BUT, having a VB isn’t what I wanted, it isn’t something I feel bad about not wanting and I’m not going to take the sadface and side eye and pity about “missing out” on a birth experience I have no interest in.
In summary- CS can be great. Not all the time, not for everyone, but definitely for me and I’m not sorry about it,
Even the most self-proclaimed “educated” women have lost babies when their birth canals didn’t function as expected, or for some other unexpected circumstance. I would like for you to directly state where Dr. Amy states that c-section is “best.” I have been a long-time reader of this blog, and I’ve yet to see her make this claim. She does advocate a woman’s right to do birth as she wishes, as long as the woman makes bases her decision from informed consent, and has a thorough understanding of the risks involved. I see you make frequent reference to “online” resources, and also on how “educated” you are. Please feel free to share with us what your education entails OUTSIDE the realm of online “research.” Medical school?
Like Griffin’s mother. Nurse, trusted her body, very “educated” about birth. Laying on her living room floor, UR, baby free floating as her abdominal cavity filled with blood. She apparently is one of the 5 ruptures.
Why isn’t VBAC”Facts” telling the stories that go with these URs?
I am having trouble associating what she writes and how with a medical professional who has worked extensively within medical field or in a medical facility. Did she ever work as a nurse anywhere?
Yes, she’s still working as a nurse, according to her blog.
Insane, if that is true I congratulate her for functioning as a professional heath care provider despite having such core mistrust in professional heath care.
Really? A pregnant woman must finish medical school, internship and residency as well as some clinical practice in those 9 months?
Oh you meant she should distrust everything her doctor says and trust websites written by lay people that are one sided and clearly biased like every natural birth site out there including VBAC”Facts”.
No. A woman has a right to informed consent and highly trained medical professionals.
@being “educated”
“the fact that women are born with a birth canal in which to birth their babies.”
You must be “educated” on how many women in our world today die of childbirth in places where that is all they have at their disposal,unlike the more ignorant people who think c-sections and interventions during pregnancy and childbirth are actually something good our civilisation came up with and would not want to trade places with women who have no access to them.
here:
“born with a birth canal”
What of it? I was born with (buds for) wisdom teeth too. They were “faulty” for lack of a better word and I had them removed. My brother had his appendix out. Simply having something as part of your anatomy means nothing.
Don’t feel bad, I was born with faulty ovaries and a faulty brain, both of which can make life extremely hard for me at times. However due to the advances in medical science I was able to overcome both of these conditions and still live a happy and healthy life.
You mean “biased,” btw, not “bias.” “Bias” is a noun.
And you know…I don’t necessarily think it IS up to pregnant women to “educate [themselves],” because that’s why we pay doctors. Sure, it’s fun to read all the pregnancy books and be informed, but being informed isn’t the same thing as being educated. (Being either would require reading more than one post before deciding this “online site” is “bias toward the thought that csection [sic] is best regardless of the fact that women are born with a birth canal in which to birth their babies.” But being well-educated [note hyphen], you know that already, right?)
You would think it’s common sense: if your uterus was sliced open and stitched up before, you might have a weakness there in the future.
OK, wow. You know when you think something is perhaps a good idea, such as having that extra cookie and then you get a stomach ache? Seems the same should be said for ever posting on this site, you may all go back to your regularly scheduled negativity. Enjoy. I won’t be bothering to read anything here again as clearly everyone thinks they are more knowledgeable than the rest, my bad for suggesting women do their own research. (oh and wisdom teeth that lost their evolutionary need cannot be compared to the anatomy of a woman and the fact that we are still having babies… perhaps if we all stop having babies we will outgrow the need for those pesky birth canals, oh wait…. that wouldn’t go so well for humanity) Thanks for the opinions and well meaning posts though.
At least your post won’t be deleted unlikel Dr Amy’s on VBAC”facts”.
You think other parts of anatomy might not have changed in some women, otherwise altering its usefulness?
Happy flouncing.
And you still never said what the source of that “research” should be.
You came here to “inform” us. Sorry if we’ve already otherwise “educated” ourselves and come to differing opinions.
“wisdom teeth that lost their evolutionary need cannot be compared to the anatomy of a woman”
There is basic anatomy and then there is zealotry that teaches how certain body parts have magical powers that other body parts do not posses.
You’re going to come here and inform a readership that includes several medical doctors, nurses, midwives, and even P.H.Ds in things like statistics. Okay good to know the women on the website are smarter than all of us put together.
Doing your own research means nothing if you don’t know how to interpret the data you’re reading. It means nothing if the results are skewed and questions are not only discouraged but censored.
We’ve never said women should stop having babies, stop having VBACs or even stop giving birth in whatever sort of natural way they feel works best for their bodies. We also admit there are flaws and bad in every system even the hospital system, however what we advocate for is true informed consent and when women are only getting flawed research into a dangerous procedure then no they aren’t able to give informed consent.
In other words, “How dare you not allow me to condescend to you, insult you, and mischaracterize this entire website? Don’t you know how special I am and that you’re lucky I deigned to speak to you at all? I’m leaving! Boo on you!”
I pushed for 18 hours straight, nothing, nada, just deceleration heart tones by the end of the night/morning. So much for my wondrous birth canal. (41 weeks, 5 days) Unscheduled c-section at 3:15 am on a Friday morning. You know how OB’s love their early morning good ;p.
Little guy just turned 2 last month. He can count to 10 (when he wants to). So yea so much for my magical birth canal, and child bearing hips. Where did you get the idea that wisdom teeth are evolutionary dead ends, science, right? Some science good (when you like it), some magical thinking good (when you like it).
In honor of you, I’m going to start a fetish cult around the neccassity of wisdom teeth. Bodies are magical don’t you know?
Wee hours of Friday morning? Clearly someone wanted to skive off for a 3-day weekend of golf! #OBsAreEvil #WakeUpSheeple
You are far less of a special flower than you think. Sorry we were accommodating enough to your wisdom.
By all means, inform yourself. I have no doubt that you follow the posts on VBAC facts. The ones they let stay there, I mean. The little detail that they deleted at least one questioning them should have given any reasonable person a warning bell but not the informed you, eh?
But keep singing “I am informed, I am informed”. At least it makes you feel good about yourself. Too bad your lady parts might not hear you.
There is no cruelty in Dr. Tutuer’s posts and her bitterness and anger comes from babies dying needlessly because more and more women are rejecting every lesson on reproductive health we’ve learned in the last 2000 years and instead focus on unscientific and sometimes downright dangerous practices.
No where does this site say C-section is best regardless, we have mothers that have had homebirths, unmedicated hospital births, medicated vaginal birth, C-section, birth center births, hell I know of one person who’s had an ambulance in front of her house birth (okay that’s cheating as it’s me.) and they’ve never been shamed for the way they give birth. Dr. Tutuer also wrote a very impassioned post as to why Doctors cannot and never should be able to give a woman a C-section against her wishes and without her consent.
We have loss mothers like Sara, who lost her son Magnus, Griffen’s mother who lost her son to UR and OPBI Mom who’s son was injured in a severe shoulder dystocia case. We give a voice to those women as well. We welcome opposing point of views, which is more than I can say for VBAC facts.
Have you seen the Not Buried Twice video on Youtube? Please add that to your research and then come back here and tell us what you learned.
I was born with wisdom teeth, but they didn’t do me much good…
Not all women are born with birth canals. That’s a transphobic AND ableist statement, Ms. Well-Educated. Also, as a cis-bodied bio woman, I resent that you feel my female-ness is defined by my genitals and my ability to bear children.
Who’s the REAL biased one?
A birth canal IN which to birth their children?! Like a birthing tub? Whoohoo, look at me wallowing in my birth canal!
I’m surprised so many VBAC”Facts” members found Dr. Amy’s post, seeing as the group’s moderators deleted all inquiries and comments about it.
Censorship doesn’t always work out the way we plan, does it ladies? Maybe you should think twice about who you accuse of misinformation.
The people who found this via VBAC facts should consider what happened when Dr Amy’s post was posted on the VBAC Facts site and what is happening with the discussion on this site.
Are you getting the full information from a site like VBAC Facts which deletes differing opinions and removes opposing articles?
VBACFacts deleted the reference to my post because they KNOW that what I wrote it true. They just don’t want their followers to find out.
Either that, or because they think women are wilting violets who can’t handle a little debate. If they think Dr. Amy is wrong, they should come up with a counter argument. It’s just cowardly to delete her post.
Dead babies make it hard to sell workshops…
To the people who’ve found this site via VBAC facts consider this: One site censors people and discourages questions that conflict with their views, the other side allows arguments disagreements, and admit if they are wrong about something.
Where would you rather get the information that can save you and your child? Communist China, or the USA because in terms of censorship VBAC facts is China.
Slightly off topic, but so tired of doctor bashing. Thought this was such a refreshing photo and story: http://www.today.com/parents/dad-doctor-hug-photo-goes-viral-after-birth-rainbow-baby-1D79861442
Aww that is so sweet!
My grandfather, father and nephew are actually named after the doctor that delivered my grandfather safely way back in the thirties.
My brother’s middle name is the name of the Ob/Gyn and the Anaesthetist that delivered all of us (and saved my life). Luckily, they share the same name.
My OB is the son of the OB who took care of my mother during pregnancy. He didn’t exactly deliver me as much as his nurse caught me. Family history of precipitous labors.
The OB on call when I delivered my son was the son (or grandson, I don’t remember) of Virginia Apgar. How cool is that?
Actually that really is cool. I wonder what Dr. Apgar would think of home birth after all she invented her score to make it easier to identify problems and issues with the baby.
I think she would think they are grossly misusing her method. It was supposed to be scored by someone other than the person who delivered the baby, to avoid bias.
Wow. I guess some people will do whatever it takes just to get a little attention. I am a member of the page, have had a VBAC, and will have a HBAC with any future children. Oh, AND I even went to 42+4 to get my VBAC. *gasp* The HORROR!!
It amazes me that people are so willing to overlook the risks of cesareans, which are considered major surgeries, not just “another way to birth. That community is informative, supportive and overall an amazing resource to women looking for info regarding VBAC’s and cesareans. While a VBAC may not be the best choice for everyone, they encourage everyone to speak with their doctor about it. An actual supportive doctor, not just one who spreads lies and uses fear as data. Believe it or not, there are actually doctors out there who don’t do what’s in the patients best interest. Mind boggling, huh ?
And, “believe it or not, there are actually” MIDWIVES “out there who don’t do what’s in the patients (sic) best interest. Mind boggling, huh?”
I didn’t overlook the risks of a c-section. I looked at the risks of VBAC and the risk of c-section and decided differently to what you did. Mind boggling, huh?
Actually my mind is rather boggled by the choice to HBAC… What made you decide that one is less risky than a hospital VBAC?
If you want to give birth in the middle of a forest with nothing but the trees and bugs around you I could care less, it’s your choice to put the life of yourself and your child at risk. However it should be an informed choice and by making abysmal numbers look better than they are and downplaying the risks VBAC facts is not helping you make an informed choice.
Oh and that “Major Surgery” you’re downing so hard, is one that saved me from yet another post-natal seizure, and was the easiest recovery out of my three births, one of which was unmedicated, the other of which was an unintentional birth in an ambulance.
“Oh, AND I even went to 42+4 to get my VBAC…the HORROR!”
Gavin Michael’s mother would agree entirely. I’m sure Gavin would too…except he’s dead. 42+3 I believe. Homebirth attempt.
“overlook the risks of cesareans”
And what pray tell are they? What is the neonatal death rate due to C-sections?
Have an HBAC if you want. That’s your right. But it’s obviously not your informed consent. You are basing your choice on completely false information and cannot possibly give true informed consent for that decision.
And Gavin Michael wasn’t even an HBAC, he was a normal pregnancy, right up until they failed to induce for low fluid and lied to his mother about everything else about his care.
And when it comes to the baby just due to the C-section, the death can have nothing to do with congenital defects, prematurity or death prior to the section.
So tell us. What is the risk of death of a baby due to C-section compared to the risk of death from an attempted VBAC? Let me guess, you don’t have a clue.
I missed the comment where we identified that difference between the risk of rupture quoted by VBACfacts and the risk of rupture quoted by large studies was statistically significant.
FACOG, I missed the part of your comment where you quoted and linked to the large studies.
” have had a VBAC, and will have a HBAC with any future children. Oh, AND I even went to 42+4 to get my VBAC. *gasp* The HORROR!!”
Take your condescending sense of achievement elsewhere please. It’s easy to boast of birth heroism when you still have the security net of modern medicine that will save your ass and if possible your baby too if things go downhill.
P.S. I had an OB advise me against written recommendation that was in my medical file since I went for my first check up as a teenager for a c-section birth only. He wanted me to use every chance possible to have a vaginal birth. He even let me go post dates almost as much as you did. Natural birth without any medication ( including the “empowering and life changing experience” of being stitched up afterwards without even a local anesthetic) was courtesy of circumstances and neither of our choices. Mind boggling, isn’t it?
Having an HBAC is stupid and puts you & your child’s life at risk. I had one. I got lucky that we were both okay. I had quite a PPH, and my husband was horrified to see blood pouring out of me. I ended up transferring to the hospital postpartum. Those of us who choose HBAC think we are so well informed and we are so smug about risk ( we think that a rupture rate of less than 1% means it’s very rare and definitely won’t happen to us) but we are stupidly, arrogantly ignorant., willing to gamble our children’s lives for our ideology. We don’t see that, of course, at the time, but that doesn’t change the truth of it. Another hallmark of a person who chooses HBAC is her unwillingness to listen to opinions different than hers. Nothing is going to change her mind. So have at it. May it go well, and may you have the luxury of thinking years later “Oh my god, she could have had lifelong brain damage! She could have died!” and have the luxury of knowing that had it gone south, you would have carried a lifelong horrible guilt that your stupid choice hurt or killed your child.
It’s a great online community full of intelligent caring women who are helping others receive more accurate education than what a lot of doctors are sharing. I, for one, am a member and certainly don’t fit your categorization of “fool.”
Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?
I’m sure she thinks she’s smart enough to know of it or smart enough not to NEED to know it. 😉
Right, “Informed” Mommy. Because it makes perfect sense that a bunch of lay persons would know more than trained doctors. The hubris is strong in this one.
How many of these women have been to medical school? How many of these women have to carry insurance to insure that if the advice they give you kills you or your child there is something to fall back on? How many of these women have ever taken a statistics class? Or even a college level math class? Because in all honesty the people I’ve mentioned are far more qualified to give accurate information than this website.
It is complete baloney to hold your “intelligent, caring women” on the same level as an OB/GYN.
Only the truly stupid fail to realize all they do not know.
Ok, I am an horrible person, but I laughed SO HARD at this…
You’ve commented here before. Let us make up our own minds which categorizations you fit. I’ve made up mine. And the fact that you don’t find this intelligent caring women’s intelligent caring way of dealing with legitimate questions (deleting them) not disturbing at all just reinforces my opinion.
Jenn Kamel has NO BACKGROUND in medicine!!! I know it’s hard to realize that you are holding onto foolish beliefs, but you are if you trust VBACFacts to give you accurate, unbiased information.
This is disgusting. I’m a member of that community and your post couldn’t be further from the truth. Additionally, I am one of those 5 URs. My baby is alive, healthy, and happy and my uterus is in tact. Oh, and this is a private group. Very crappy of whomever to share our private group info.
***the stats listed in these screen shots are not formal, controlled data, but more casual data.
I’m so sorry to hear about a rupture and so happy to hear your baby is okay! Were you in a hospital when the rupture happened?
So do you think your “casual data” shows a good outcome?
Yes I was in the hospital. I was a VBA2C hopeful.
And yes, the outcomes within our group fall under 2% which if I remember correctly, has been cited. But I believe that % is for VBAMC (multiple), as when I was researching, that is the spectrum I was looking for info in.
Do you think it’s responsible of Jen Kamel to advocate HBAC?
2% would be a horrible outcome rate. Horrible.
Have you considered the “horrible” risk rates for repeat cesareans? They aren’t pretty either. Risk of hemmorage, blood transfusions, infection of the uterus and incision site, increased risk of respiratory issues in the infant, lack of exposure to healthy vaginal bacteria from mom which can inhibit a Breastfeeding relationship and has been thought to contribute to the lack of developed gut flora, loss of future fertility, higher UR risk after multiple CS, I mean come on. It’s major abdominal surgery. It is up to each woman and her doctor to choose which set of risks sounds better.
You’re lumping in lack of exposure to vaginal bacteria in with hemorrhage? Wow.
The respiratory issues are also completely overblown. Transient respiratory issues are not fatal.
IT’s absolutely up to each woman and her doctor to choose their preferred set of risks. We can all help with that by not getting hyperbolic about what those risks are, as you do regarding c-section.
Or you could ignore overlapping risks (like transfusion and hemorrhage), and invoke gut flora.
Yup. PPH is a risk of both c-sections and vaginal births.
I hear the word Gut Flora and tend to tune out. If I never hear it again it’ll be too soon.
Hang it up next to Quantum.
I always thought flora and fauna were in reference to the flowers and things found in nature. I didn’t realize I’m supposed to have it in my gut too. I thought that was all acid, and other anatomical words that I’ve forgotten since high school anatomy.
Gut flora is a real thing, just like quantum mechanics is a real scientific theory. It refers to the microbes that live in your large intestine, and they are indeed necessary for health. However:
1) We don’t really know what the optimal balance is
2) We don’t know how to achieve it, either.
Unfortunately, like many new areas of research, quacks use it as a buzzword, making all sorts of wildly implausible claims. The best current evidence suggests that c-section babies take a little longer to start accumulating a proper collection of microbes, but there’s no meaningful difference at age 5 days.
Oh no! I have to wait a full FIVE days for there not to be a meaningful difference?!!
So basically if my baby comes out through my vagina it happens a little faster, through C-section a little slower but from everything known about gut flora there’s very little evidence to show that there’s any meaningful harm to taking just a little longer to start accumulating microbes. But yet we’re supposed to
Hi Kate! Congratulations on your healthy baby.
“Have you considered the “horrible” risk rates for repeat cesareans?”
Since you gave us your anecdote, I’ll give you mine. I had my second child via RCS, and had NONE of those “horrible” complications you mention. And the baby breastfed without taking a bottle for a full year until the baby was weaned in order for me to go back to work.
But you don’t want to hear about my experience, because it wasn’t “horrible” – do you?
“It is up to each woman and her doctor to choose which set of risks sounds better.”
True, and the fact remains I chose the lesser risk than you did. And guess what? While your baby is helathy and your uterus intact, you’re the one who lost the gamble when you ruptured.
Apologies to Danielle – Disqus listed your comment as Kate when I replied.
It’s not just the risk of something happening, it’s the magnitude of that something.
If I tell you that you can pay me $5 for a 10% at getting $1, you’d never take that deal. If I tell you that you can pay me $5 for a 10% chance of getting $1,000,000, you’d be a fool not to take me up on it.
Respiratory issues, if they even occur, are largely transient in full term babies. And that beats the heck out of the odds of surviving a uterine rupture.
The bottom line, Danielle, is that *some* women are at greater risk than others who, from the outside, look like identical candidates. That’s the problem we (or at least, I) have with these VBAC advocacy groups. VBACs (or more accurately, TOLACs) should never be encouraged as a blanket option to all women. It’s a discussion that can really only be safely assessed with your OB, on a case by case, pregnancy by pregnancy basis. And the celebratory focus really shouldn’t be WHERE the baby comes out of, but THAT the mom and baby come through the delivery as healthy as possible. That’s the bottom line. Or at least it should be with reasonable minds.
I get the impression that you get that, to a certain extent. But that is most assuredly not the case for many VBAC promoters.
Hmmm…
Dead baby vs blood transfusion – i’ll take the transfusion!
Dead baby vs infection – I’ll take the infection!
Dead baby vs smaller family due to fertility loss – I’ll take fertility loss!
Dead baby vs formula – I’ll take formula!
Dead baby vs a couple day stint in the NICU for TTN with no long lasting effects – option 2 please!
You really don’t get it. All those things you mentioned are TRIVIAL compared to following a short casket to a hole in the ground to avoid “major surgery”. I would die for my child. “major surgery” is nothing.
Sites like VBAC facts are the reason that the #notburiedtwice campaign is so important, sites like it are trying so hard to push their view of birth, that they cover up the near misses, the birth injuries, and most tragic of all the deaths.
I am in this group, and sadly it has been misrepresented. Yes, a baby died. And it is tragic. I cried at the loss, it is heartwrenching. These facts are not hidden. I for one am open to a RCS. However, New Zealand is very careful and incredibly strict on VBAC practice. You must be monitored through the whole labour. (And to those commenting on academia, that is low. I personally have a qualification that is well-respected internationally. So I am not thick.) The success and risks are very well laid out. To simply inform.
The author has misconstrued the congratulation.
To further, I had a serious infection after, that had no symptoms apart from weeping which began overnight after being discharged. Only minutes after being back at the hospital did it burst. Of course I would take that over losing my child. Hands down.
I am in New Zealand and someone from my 2 year old daughter’s due date group attempted a HBAC just 4 months ago – so no, I do not agree that NZ is ‘very careful and incredibly strict’ when it comes to VBAC’s. Midwives here can be just as steeped in the woo as any other anywhere else, despite the Bachelors requirement – especially when you factor in the fact that they don’t get paid the full amount unless the mother births vaginally.
This mother pushed for 2 hours with her first, vacuum extraction failed and she needed an emergency C-section. With her second she laboured all day at home, pushed for 3(!) hours, and transferred to hospital where she managed to birth her baby with the aid of forceps.
She has now revealed to the group she is dealing with some degree of vaginal prolapse. She is now looking down the barrel of physiotherapy at the very least, and (what I consider) a more invasive surgery than c-section at the very worst.
Yes, she got a ‘successful’ VBAC, but personally I can’t consider that a success at all.
I don’t envy her that. I have a rectocele and have already done a stint in physiotherapy for bowel incontinence/urgency. It is terribly embarassing and upsetting, and I don’t wish it on anyone.
Yes, they earn slightly less in an elective. But not for any interventions, or an “emergency” or crash section. There was an article shared on OhBaby just today. Their pay rates are public information on the MOH.
Oh my gosh… I had no idea you could do home births here after c sections. That is scary!
I was very relaxed with my second pregnancy – I’d done it before, knew what to expect, knew what I didn’t want. Then Reality was forcibly brought to the fore: did I want to save $1000 by having a birth centre birth and risk a hospital transfer at an inopportune moment, or have a hospital birth and go home with a live healthy baby?
People have differing priorities.
This is what that group is all about. It’s horrifying.
Members with NO medical training or background giving out advice/information to woman as facts. They tend to scare women out of a RCS and call it support but I don’t see it that way. It’s sad.
I saw people telling a mom to call out of her c-section at 42 weeks. This group is dangerous, very dangerous to vulnerable women who do not know the risks and/or they are down played.
Of course everyone is congratulated when they post they had their baby be it via VBAC/HBAC/RCS… I guess that’s support?
Major surgery is a heart transplant, or a bowel resection. A C-section is no more major than an appendectomy. Some people just love the scariness of the words “major surgery.”
Increased risk of blood transfusion, infection, inhibited breastfeeding vs. increased risk of death. Yep, same thing. On one side of the ledger we have things that are treatable, on the other we have a dead baby. One totally balances out the other, right?
Statistically, c-sections result in less morbidity and mortality for babies. The main issue is TTN, which can occur in vaginally delivered babies as well, particularly those born at early term (my eldest had TTN after SROM at 38+3 and an unmedicated, unaugmented labor and delivery).
In terms of the risks to the mother, the main issues are in regards to future fertility. You said three children were enough, so I guess this argument falls flat in your case. Can you at least acknowledge that you were lucky to be in a hospital where you and your baby could be saved and understand why advocating for HBAC is immoral?
Did you ever consider or did anyone suggest the option of an out of hospital birth?
Yes. I was not comfortable with being unmonitored. However, I believe it is a wonderful option for some women 🙂
So you think birth attendants should Ber allowed to charge fees to attend deliveries that have a 1/200 chance of death, without any malpractice insurance?
For which women is it a wonderful option to take a 1% chance of their child dying?
Well if their babies can’t get access to the magic vag juice on the way out, what’s the point, really?
I honestly don’t understand why you would think it is a wonderful option. Homebirth *can* be a wonderful option, but I don’t see how HBAC could ever be considering the catastrophic risk. It’s almost like saying it’s wonderful that some babies die a preventable death or suffered terrible brain injury. Is supporting women who are successful at their HBAC worth that baby who died? It obviously wasn’t worth it to you to risk your child’s life. Why support women who risk theirs?
And please know, I’m not trying to be snarky with my comment. I worked in pediatric Pulmonology and took care of the HIE babies. It’s awful. I feel people often think it won’t happen to them and then it does. Statistically, it has to happen to someone. I don’t understand risking that much.
You had a UR. Your baby is alive.
A lady named Beth (apparently a member of VBAC”Facts” as well) had a UR. Her baby, Griffin, is dead.
You were in a hospital. She was at home.
How does one decide BEFOREHAND for which women HBAC is a “good option”? Griffin’s CNM thought his mother was a good candidate.
I had a UR. My baby, Lachlan, died. I was in hospital attempting VBAC under constant monitoring and still when things went pear-shaped they couldn’t get him out in time.
My OB recommended I try VBAC as my first CS was due to severe pre-eclampsia. Sometimes things just don’t go according to plan. I wish I had just scheduled a repeat CS.
Says it all. Wonderful option for some women. Not so wonderful about the babies of those same women but hey, who cares, as long as women get the satisfaction of pushing a baby through their vagina, dead or alive. Baby, I mean. When it’s their life on the stake, they are quick to head for the hospital.
Your comment about how you would have had your VBAC if not for the UR was jaw-dropping. The UR IS the reason VBAC is considered risky at all! Is that the informed choice you and your ilk wave around thumping in your chest? The lucky ones who got out of it with a healthy baby, I mean.
Can you use your uterus again for another pregnancy?
FYI: perhaps the group administration needs to be more selective of who they let in. So far, my secret group that represents our union hasn’t been hacked but we actually know each other.
But then how would VBACfacts find enough new fools to pay for Jen Kamel’s seminars?!
Yes. But 3 is enough! 🙂
Kate,
“Yes. But 3 is enough! :)”
If that’s the case, why did you feel the need to have a VBAC instead of the safer (for the baby) RCS?
This is an honest question, because I just don’t get it.
A second apology to Danielle for the name mixup
I chose a VBAC even though I wasn’t considering more children, because I was a good candidate and there was a reasonable chance of success. I didn’t want to repeat the c/s if there was a good chance I could avoid it.
Because an RCS wasn’t necessary in my case. I labored naturally and safely, in a hospital, monitored. And I did not want to recover from a CS with two young children to care for at home. My previous two CS were NOT an easy recovery. Ranging from near kidney failure to anestisiolgist’s overdosing my spinal and a whole big ass mess. Just didn’t want to go thru that again. Not to mention the 3-4 day hospital stay (UGH). And considering the odds, had I not had UR at 9cm, I would have been successful with VBAC.
But a RCS was necessary in your case! You had a rupture!
So it’s an online internet survey which is subject to self selection bias.
Maybe MANA and other independent midwifery organizations could do a joint study.
What in Dr. Amy’s post is actually untrue?
That our group praises dangerous practices. Untrue. We have (obviously) many women who chose CS for a host of reasons.
So if a woman said she wanted a homebirth after a previous c-section, no one in your group would encourage/praise her for that dangerous practice?
Some of the loudest commenters in that group are so proud of their stupidity that their Facebook profiles use middle names like “HBA4C”. As in Jane HBA4C Smith. Their entire identities are consumed by how much risk they were willing to take to push a baby out. One of the HBA4C ladies had a 10lb OP baby.
“10lb OP baby” made me flinch.
Their entire identities are consumed by their vagina goddesses. Clive Barker has a chilling horror story along the similar lines, but this bunch is far more scary.
I don’t know, that post certainly seems to be lauding by way of highlighting the VBACs after multiple Csections and the breech birth. So this “private” group (psst this is the Internet…if you don’t want others to see it don’t post it) actively warns AGAINST those births as they have dramatically higher risk than a single VBAC? If not they are promoting dangerous practices in their complacency.
And if your stats are so awesome – why make them private? Surely the whole world should know your successes?
You’re joking, right? The post we are talking about “congratulated” everyone on a hideous rupture rate. Sure you don’t praise dangerous practices.
Your beef is with whoever shared the private info, although if it’s something to celebrate, I don’t know why you would care. I’m glad your rupture was not a catastrophe. TOLAC is nothing to take lightly, which is precisely what organizations like VBAC Facts (or “facts”) does – now, THAT is disgusting.
I’m sure whoever shared the private info (not me, not a member of that group) was doing so because she hopes it might cause one mom out there to choose a safe delivery instead of the kind VBACfacts advocates.
A baby is dead and you think the problem is that we are letting other women know about it? You’re joking, right?
You’re trying to portray yourself as reasonable because you were in a hospital, but isn’t it true that you stopped getting prenatal care in your last trimester, and “showed up pushing” in the hospital because no healthcare provider would take you on as a VBA2C? And isn’t it true that a VBACfacts admmin encouraged you to have an unassisted birth? Your rupture could have been avoided if you had followed medical advice.
It’s very true. An admin told Danielle, even after she made it clear her only options to her available to go in pushing or to have a repeat section and a HBAC (once considered) was out the window…
Bethany Tuck, an admin of VBACFacts replied with this:
I never said it wasn’t true. I just used my best judgement when pushed against a wall. In my area you get dropped for so much as asking a question if the Dr doesn’t like it. So yeah, I was without past 30 weeks. But I still had my own sense enough to go in the hospital. So what does any of that info have to do with it?
It proves what Dr. Amy said in her post, “The VBACFacts community encourages women to take risks”.
They encouraged you to take risks. There is a reason why 14 plus OB’s turned you down. You were not a good candidate.
14 plus OB’s ?
L.O.L.
It has to do with the fact that you’re still defending the very people who came very close to persuading you to kill your baby.
Good lord. If you are proud of your decision, why not include all the facts? Something is off here if you can’t do that. A “fear of man” they say, right? Not wanting to be judged poorly? A sign of maturity is being able to own the decisions you make.
Sorry, should have replied to Danielle.
You do realize that you’re extremely lucky to have not listened to the group when a lot of those members were telling you to HBAC and/or go unassisted in birth, right?
Even an admin mentioned to you look into unassisted birth as an option for your VBAC2C because you could not find an OB who would VBAC you after a certain date. These doctors are not stupid, they know the risks and you happened to have tone of those risks of a uterine rupture. You have to be so thankful you were in the hospital and was able to have a c-section pretty quickly. Had you been at home your outcome to both your baby and you may not have been good.
This woman in the VBACFacts group was not as lucky as you were:
http://www.skepticalob.com/2014/04/you-martyred-your-son-for-your-birth-experience-was-it-worth-it.html
And I am very glad for you, Danielle. I have a friend who lost her baby due to a UR that occurred during a HBAC. She is not allowed to participate in the forums anymore because she was being too “negative” for pointing out just how catastrophic the consequences of a UR can be.
How is your uterus intact after a rupture?
“***the stats listed in these screen shots are not formal, controlled data, but more casual data.”
Same thing like zero APGAR scores recorded by homebirth lay midwives supposedly being “more causual data” than zero APGAR scores recorded in hospitals to MANA, VBAC Facts are “more casual” facts that are clearly open to (mis)interpretation whenever the numbers are not on your side.
But isn’t a one percent chance worth it so you can protect your fertility, and choose your family size? C sections have a limit of 4 pregnancies correct?
Depends on individual circumstances. Personal preferences too – I prefer my babies being born alive and well by all means possible, so in my case 1 in 100 chances of ending up with dead or seriously injured baby is not the odds I would play against.
Does that mean a rupture is a death sentence? I’m not well versed in the consequences of a rupture. If you are the one percent them you will definitely die, or the baby? Just wondering fatality percent. Because then you are looking at a percentage of a percent.
I don’t know specific mortality rates, but this is a very informative post about VBAC. Baby has to be delivered within 10-37 minutes in order to survive. Please know that even if the hospital is “five minutes away” that it will likely take a minimum of 20-30 minutes to transfer to the hospital.
http://whatifsandfears.blogspot.com/2014/04/mana-study-part-4-vaginal-birth-after.html
My baby was delivered stillborn due to UR 29 minutes after the monitor was removed.
To add, it also depends where you are. If you are doing a VBAC in a hospital with continuous monitoring, they can get you to an OR typically in less than 8 minutes after detecting the first sign of rupture. In some hospitals it’s less than 5.
If you are under proper monitoring in a hospital equipped to provide STAT c-section, they can almost always save the mother, usually save the baby, and sometimes save the uterus, although further pregnancies are generally not recommended.
If you are not in a hospital when the rupture happens, it’s almost impossible to save the baby (as in baby is usually dead by the time you get in), but they can usually save the mother.
That’s why we say, hospital VBAC is a reasonable option for most women, HBAC is a bad move.
Maternal mortality is pretty low, even in a home VBAC, usually they get to the hospital in time to save the mother. The baby is another story. In a hospital,with constant monitoring, they can have the baby out pretty quick, usually.
But the odds of a dead or seriously injured baby with a hospital TOLAC is much much lower than 1/100.
I’ve known women with more than 4 c-sections. It really depends on how well the incision heals and the thickness of the uterus, as well as recovery time between pregnancies.
The one percent chance can also mean not having any more children, ever, if it leads to permanent uterine damage or hysterectomy. (and possible miscarriage). So the odds are not one or the other.
Imagine 100 babies lined up. One of them is yours. One of the hundred are going to die this morning. Are you okay with leaving your baby in the line?
I hope you find a medical care provider you can trust and you and your baby and the rest of your family are well through the changes you are going through.
Rupture doesn’t = dead baby. Let’s quit with the hyperbole and focus on actual data so women can make informed choices, not based on fear mongering.
It depends on where the rupture happens. In a hospital that is supporting VBACs according to the ACOG guidelines, the odds are good – but not 100%.
Outside of a hospital, the odds are not very good although some babies have survived.
Most posters here do focus on actual data not self selected anecdotes gathered and repackaged by a self-serving pseudo-professional.
And flouncing almost inevitably ensues.
Kate,
why don’t you post some peer-reviewed numbers for the literature for us?
Show us the data.
And discussions about the risk of babies dying doesn’t = fear-mongering. In the event of a rupture, the risks are much higher – if you want to call that hyperbole and risk your life and your baby’s life, good luck. Just don’t downplay the risks, especially to other women.
I actually prefer to know about the risk of death and consider it being a part of informed consent, not fear-mongering. If there is a real chance of my baby dying I want to know about it and will factor that into my decision making.
Actually the risk of the death of my baby would be a much bigger factor in my decision than say how many kids I could have. Informed consent means knowing all the risks, and guess what death is one of them.
Sure. Drop the “horrible risks of major surgery” hyperbole.
Though a rupture is FAR more likely to result in a dead baby, especially OOH. So you oppose OOH VBAC?
How many ruptures have you attended?
If you’re at home it almost always does.
Bullshit. The chances are much better for the baby is your are having a hospital VBAC with CEFM, but if you are at home, chances are very high that your baby will not survive.
I’ve used a version of that very scenario to make my case and was called a fear monger. This argument does nothing to convince a true believer of NCB
As far as the original commenter is concerned. No, the risk is not enough. Is it fair to take the gamble and leave my husband a widow and my older children motherless? Life doesn’t work out the way we planned. I never planned to deliver all my children via C-Section but that is my reality. It also forced my husband and I to accept that our family would be different than we imagined it would be before our children were born. I have struggled with it from time to time but I’m on the other side of it now, nearing the end of my childbearing years and I love my family so much more than I need to push a baby out. I love them too much to risk not being here for them or putting them through the trauma of losing a sibling and/or their mother in the same day. How do you justify that?
Sadlady, “But isn’t a one percent chance worth it so you can protect your fertility”
You won’t be preserving your fertility if your rupture results in hysterectomy or your death.
You need to look at the consequences of the risk you wish to take when you do your risk assessment.
But, repeated C-sections can also lead to higher risks and the loss of future babies. As in, invasive placentas that are so bad that women end up having to terminate 24 week pregnancies because the risk that they will bleed to death is so high. With high risk of bladder and bowel damage. And this doesn’t necessarily happen after 4 or 5 c-sections – try after 2. I’m pretty sure those women worn those babies too. VBAC is not a safe choice for every woman, nor are C-sections inherently bad, but there are risks to both. There are sound reasons for not wanting multiple C-sections. VBAC can be a reasonable option if done in a hospital with an IV in place, CEFM and strict attention paid to the labor curve.
“VBAC can be a reasonable option if done in a hospital with an IV in place, CEFM and strict attention paid to the labor curve.”
How does that turn into, like it seems to for so many, HBAC is a great idea?
Lynn “this doesn’t necessarily happen after 4 or 5 c-sections – try after 2”
Do you have a source for that statement? Please post it.
If your doctor believes you are a reasonably good candidate for VBAC, and you do it in a hospital, reducing the risks in future pregnancies are a perfectly valid reason to try to VBAC. But if your doctor says you’re a bad candidate, then you’re a bad candidate. It doesn’t matter how many children you want, it may come down to how many your body can safely produce.
Right, also it is not like the chance of rupture is an independent probability. If you are a bad candidate, the rate of rupture is much higher than 1 percent, most likely.
Or, the thing that happened the first time around that necessitated the c-section could be more likely to happen again, increasing the risks to the baby in other ways.
You beat me to it, and as usual, more succinctly than myself. 😉
Maybe it is, but for women to judge its worth, they need to know all the facts. Announcing the positives of VBAC is perfectly okay, as long as you acknowledge the heightened risks.
There’s a reason why medical procedures require “informed consent” to be considered legal or moral. Quietly not mentioning the dangers of a procedure, while trumpeting its merits, is a way of stealing consent from women.
Well put!
Oh, sure, VBACs are a sensible option for low-risk women who are good candidates. In the HOSPITAL. I had a VBAC myself, and it worked out great.
VBACfacts is encouraging people to take ridiculous risks, go against doctor’s advice, and birth out of hospital. Which, predictably, results in unacceptable rates of injury and death.
Uh, no. The risks are not usually significantly higher until the 4th CS (or after the 4th? I can’t remember how my OB stated it). But it’s not like you get a punch card or something.
Often left out of this discussion is why a woman might find herself needing successive c-sections. It is a gross oversimplification to assume that a primary CS will always be the demise of future vaginal birth attempts. If the reason for the primary CS was isolated to that specific pregnancy, and they are a good candidate for a VBAC, then the discussion is largely moot. However, there are recurring incidences in a woman’s pregnancy that may indicate a need for a CS, and in that case, it would not be unreasonable to question whether a large family – at least biological – is a wise decision. It’s so common to hear people harp on c-sections as the reason a woman’s family size is limited, but rarely do you see it questioned whether multiple pregnancies are simply contraindicated, so to speak, in some women.
If you wanted a large family but have a pelvis that isn’t well suited to the task, 3 or 4 c-section babies is a whole lot better than, say, dying with the first one still inside you, which is what would happen in nature.
For me that one percent chance wouldn’t be worth it especially given my other complications. I think of Michelle Duggar when I think of this discussion, over half of her pregnancies have ended in C-section and she had 20 pregnancies and the end of her child bearing years had nothing to do with the C-section.
No, she only had 4 c/s total.
I’m probably wrong considering I quit following her years ago. For some reason I thought both of her sets of twins and her last three babies were C-sections.
It wasn’t worth it to me. I was only planning a small family and my husband was able to be home with my for 6 weeks after the birth to help out with our toddler. A repeat c-section was a no-brainer for me.
Guess what? – sometimes life intervenes and you don’t always get what you want. If a woman with a poorly shaped pelvis or bicornuate uterus wants 6 kids she should HBAC to achieve that? Be an adult. Suck it up. Sometimes life deals you a raw hand an you don’t get what you want.
(every 2 year old at some point – “but I waaaaaaannnnntttt it!!!”)
Make decisions for your CHILD’s best interest not YOUR personal self interest.
The average woman in the developed world has fewer than 4 children, certainly because 2 or 3 children is about at the point where childcare and education costs become unacceptably burdensome for most people.
The percentage of women who WANT 5, 6 or 7 children (as opposed to those who have large families through unplanned pregnancies) is actually very small, so I don;’t think that argument applies to most women.
Not if you didn’t have great fertility to begin with!! Why VBAC with a baby if it took you three years and lots $$$ to even conceive?
You can’t just paint broad strokes. Every woman’s situation is different. I dare anyone to tell me I should have risked my miracle baby for a VB.
There is not a set limit… that is just when the risks go up. My first son was a severe shoulder dystocia resulting in a lifelong birth injury… I had c-sections for the other 3 little ones because of the risks to more of my babies. I did want 7 children, but I couldn’t bear the thought of them dying or going through the same obstacles my first son has. So it has limited our family size somewhat, but it has enhanced the quality of life for the children I do have.
They got asked about this post of Dr Amy’s and how they would reply.
Care to find out what the dangerous bitches’ reply was?
I’m guessing there was an onslaught of comments along the lines of…
“DO YOUR RESEARCH” …”FACTS”…”I had a HBA15C and I was fine”…”evidence-based”…”natural” …”empowering”…”experience”…”VBAC is a human rights issue”…”OBs”… “golf”…”scare-mongering”…”dead baby card” …”babies die of UR in hospitals too”…”we don’t really know how or why UR happen or how to avoid them but there is a buncha women here telling you that you will be FINE so TRUST BIRTH!!! and all is good”…
🙂
Nice but no.
They deleted the question.
Damn. I forgot the ultimate “keep your birth space safe and your birth thoughts pure” weapon – delete any and all questions and comments that dare suggest that what they “feel” and “know” is right is according to science and REAL FACTS wrong. Dangerous too.
They did it remarkably quickly, too.
Candi was quicker, though… evil grin… and a round of applause for CandiB.
Anyone get a screencap?
Not me. I glimpsed it on their page a while ago and immediately after went off to meet my guests. When I went to their page again about two hours later, it was gone. It lasted about 2 hours and 15 minutes there.
Here you go
Thanks, Candi!
“Assuming a woman has access to accurate information…”
Ironic, that.
Also note that there is no mention of each woman’s individual health factors, or medical issues specific to the pregnancy in question.
Ugh, some of those responses. I’m glad pushing a kid out their nethers fills them with such purpose.
You are stupid witch. The person how write this need to get out of high school. Its a stupid witch hunt
…and you might want to go back to high school, where you might learn how to read, spell, and punctuate correctly. That way, when you call other people stupid, they will think you actually have a basis from which to judge.
Emailed it to you
And banned the person who asked.
I’m sure she thinks that even admitting UR happens is proof of how wonderful she is.
I don’t think she would know how many of them resulted in the death of the mother, baby or both. I doubt she’d even care, because to admit that they don’t always come out sunshine & rainbows would be spreading “horror stories”.
Here’s the screen shot
Wait… I thought we were supposed to be enjoying the wonderful results of their n = 396 survey. Now Kamel says we need “at least 3,000-4,000” subjects to get meaningful outcomes. What was the point of their survey again?
Actually, she wanted 3,000 VBA2C’s. Her survey only had 35. Well, 35 successes, we don’t know how many of the ruptures or unplanned c-sections were in that group, but still, a very small number.
I wonder, how many TOLA2Cs are there in the US every year. It can’t be that many.
It’s going to be a small number. Even in very pro VBAC countries, VBA2C without a previous successful VB is unlikely to be supported.
We done a few every year at my hospital. The women are very carefully screened and counseled. I believe we are the only hospital in the area that offers it.
What’s the success rate?
Jen Kamel posted a reply recently in her VBACfacts group. The post was from a mother who wants a VBAC2C and her OB is concerned with a uterine rupture but is supportive with having her go to 42 weeks. The mother asked, “She says the concern is uterine rupture. At this point, I guess one of my questions is, what are my options- should I try to just labor at home as long as I can and then go in to the hospital?”
There was one reply from a woman saying how rare UR is then another member said it isn’t as rare as people make it out to be and explained how her friend passed away from a bad UR. This is where Jen comes in with this reply:
Oh man. Did no one suggest she listen to the OB’s advice? Am I to understand the OB is ok with her going to 42wk and then RCS? Or willing to attempt induction at that point? I imagine the OB has discussed the statistics about rupture, but also I can see that it could be very difficult for someone to apply those stats to herself, especially because of her bias. Probably she’ll want to see herself in the group of women who don’t experience rupture, which will be larger than the group that does, and she’ll (with the help of the vbacfacts crew) down play the outcomes of being in the smaller group of unfortunates who aren’t so lucky. It’s true that she needs to consider the things that Jen Kamel mentions in the above picture, but the OB should have already brought those up, in the personal risk calculation. The poster seems to be crowdsourcing this to hear what she wants to hear, because she’s hearing the OB saying “well its your choice, but RISK of RUPTURE”, or something like that.
That’s my totally uneducated take wo/even reading anymore. Yay armchair psychology.
Yes. It is hard to see yourself falling into the 1% or whatever especially when you have your heart set on something else. Of course, when something happens you your risk becomes 100%.
Her question of “should I just labor at home..” does seem to suggest she is just looking for some one to support her in what she wants to do…I’ll go so far as to say she doesn’t want to do what her OB has suggested which is have a RCS at 42 weeks. I really wish someone would tell her not to labor at home with VBAC and at 42 weeks!
There were a few ladies telling her to go in when se felt like she needed the epidural as the poster said she wanted to have it.
It’s funny, because having been the 1% before (recurrent pregnancy loss), it’s hard not to worry that I’ll always be the bad 1%, rather than assuming I’ll be the 99.
I’m very surprises her OB would be OK with her going as far as 42 weeks? Laboring at home is such a bad idea
I would have been allowed to go to 42 weeks, with daily NSTs and ultrasounds and a promise to go into the hospital in fairly early labor. However, I went into labor at 41 weeks, thankfully.
I actually went to 42 weeks before having an induction with my VBAC. I was under the care of a CNM and the head OB at the practice. I was monitored very closely after I hit 40 weeks and 3 days.
Just because she went to 42 weeks doesn’t mean the OB was ok with it. It goes back to maternal autonomy. We can recommend IOL or scheduled RCS. However, if Mom declines despite the best of counseling of risks and benefits, our hands our tied. Four quick examples come to mind, all refusing standard of care treatment when RCS recommended.
A. TOLAC at 41 weeks, stalled 8cm for 8 hours and refuses CS. Eventually CS with dehisence.
B. TOLAC 43y 42.1wk, declined all antenatal testing at 40weeks and did not return for care until ROM. VBAC with 4 degree.
C. TOLAC with 2 prior CS, stalled 8cm for 6 hours while refusing IVF. SVD shoulder dystocia.
D. TOLAC with 2 prior CS, one preterm SVD, BMI 63 and DM, cord prolapse with eventual RCS.
Sites like VBAC facts lead women to believe they are entitled to TOLAC and vilify HCP’s as their obstacle. We’re not the obstacle. We are the voice of reason holding vigil at the bedside for 24 hours and understanding what’s at stake, but powerless to change it despite best of efforts of counseling.
Our practice supports TOLAC and have high success rate, but that’s only with carefully screened candidates. TOLAC carries a high enough risk, working with mothers who misplace process over outcomes is a daunting prospect.
I should have phrased my response a little better. I’m surprised the mother would risk going to 42 wks if she wanted a VBAC, for all the reasons and cases you listed above. My exact thoughts were along the lines of your last sentence, process over outcomes. I should have stated I’m surprises she wasn’t listening to her OB to have a successful VBAC instead of seeking advice from FB
Mothers risk going to 42 weeks and insist VBAC or bust because of sites like VBACfacts minimizing the risks and pitting mothers against actual providers with knowledge and experience. Any provider in that situation knows it is akin to being held hostage when you’re watching a disaster play out in slow motion and feel powerless to prevent it. Not surprised at all that some women choose to seek FB info, which tells them what they WANT to hear as opposed to the medical advice they tune out because they DONT want to hear just what is at stake. This is why screening potential VBAC candidates and establishing an agreed upon management plan early on can be the difference between life and death.
This OB already seems very reasonable and accommodating. This woman needs to just be grateful and listen to the doctor.
I believe that 1.2% is more than 70% higher than 0.7%. (.012/.007 = 1.714.) Which of course only makes their numbers worse.
No, that’s not how you calculate a percent increase.
Percent increase and percent decrease are the same as “percent higher than” or “percent lower than.” If something doubles, for example, it has had a 100% increase AND it is 100% higher than the original. I do this for a living.
Not saying anything about the precision because I’m looking only at the actual numbers, not running confidence intervals or taking the sample size into account. But saying that is was 60% more was a straight calculation mistake.
Yes, it was a mistake;I fixed it.
And I made a typo in my comment 🙂
1.7 times is the same as 70% bigger. So technically it’s 71% bigger, which is unnecessary precision.
That’s not “unnecessary precision” it’s impossible precision.
You can’t claim 71% anything with only 5 instances.
I’m actually surprised that Dr Amy only did the 60% thing, because she is usually really, really bad about this (including too many (in)significant figures)
Sorry, but I stopped reading at “breech VBAC” as my moron alert switched to high input mode.
Hi Amy,
Are you familiar with Tversky & Khaneman’s work on risk, and have you ever examined homebirth/obstetrical risk taking from the perspective of their work, which argues essentially that we have heuristic /cognitive biases toward optimistic assessments of risky situations? It would be an interesting angle to consider.
First you have to admit that a situation is risky.
One common comparison is “Driving a car is also risky, but people get into cars every. single. day!”.
Every time I get behind the driver’s seat I don’t think “I’m putting myself and my passengers at risk of injury or death! Maybe I should stay home instead. It would be safer.”.
Instead, I engage in a complex series of decisions that I think will make my trip as safe as possible, starting with putting on my seat belt. I acknowledge the danger and try to do what I THINK will make me as safe as possible. Some of my strategies may be based on misinformation or flawed assumptions, but I make an effort to minimize risk.
I rely on a lot of things to keep me safe on the roads – from the people who designed and built the roads, to the traffic signals, to the way my car is built and of course – the behavior of the people I share the road with.
Here’s post from 6 years ago where I discussed their research:
http://homebirthdebate.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-listen-because-you-might-learn.html
I’ll admit I’m not a numbers person. I’m not really a science person either. However, even I do understand why those FOR (I’m really really for it) spend so much time downplaying rupture in VBACS. When I thought I wanted a VBAC every single proVBAC website stated over and over the risk for rupture was low. Ok. I got it. The risk is low, but then the consequences of rupture can be devastating….not much on that part mentioned though.
Not being a numbers person. I started discussing the stats of uterine rupture with my husband (who is in a science related profession that deals with risk). He broke the numbers down…looked at me and said “I would do the C-section.”
Now that doesn’t mean I think VBACs should be banned or anything like that. For some women it’s an option especially, if they really want a large family. I just don’t understand why those for VBAC try to act like the risk just isn’t there.
Because realistically discussing the risks of a rupture involve talking about the possibility of a dead baby.
I picked up a book about home birth. I found where they discussed the risks of HBACs. The closest they came to talk about what actually happens during a UR is to admit there was an increase in “perinatal mortality”. What they didn’t say is that the morbidity/mortality numbers they were using were from VBACs done in a hospital.
We don’t have reliable data for OOH VBACs. What data we do have is uniformly worse than hospital VBACs. So the numbers for HBACs are worse than hospital VBACs, but we don’t know how much worse they are.
“why those for VBAC try to act like the risk just isn’t there.”
They are not numbers people either. Scientific mathematical risk is different from heuristic risk.
Of a certain mindset, if the risk/fact is not understood then it is ignored. This is one reason why-how people select the choice with the worst consequence.
Actually with those numbers, I would think that with the percentages as high as they are, that we should consider banning VBACs.
We know at least one of those 5 died — baby Griffin was one of those ruptures. (ETA — I’m not in VBACfacts, but saw a screenshot of her replying to this thread mentioning that she was one of the ruptures).
but her uterus did what it was supposed to do – it opened up and birthed a baby.
I wonder what these fools would even say to this? Probably “Don’t go to Skep OB, she is a mean old B**** and hates VBAC and moms!”. Forget the bad numbers, they could not even see that they were bad, that is how clueless they are over there.
Bragging about a breech VBAC? They had to be at home. Talk about rolling the docs and getting lucky.
I am pretty sure you didn’t mean:
“…members who attempted *****C-section***** in the past 8 months….”
Did you mean VBAC?
I can totally understand the mistake, this is so outrageous it is hard to not smack your head so hard it makes you black out.
OT here, but does anyone recall the nice article that Dr. Amy wrote about the ridiculous idea of showing a drawing of a foetus in stead of actually getting an ultrasound a few months back? One of the OBs in the office has a $5 bet with me that nobody can really be that crazy.
http://wisewomanwayofbirth.com/low-tech-non-invasive-ultrasound-alternative/
I can’t believe it… just read a bit about the ultrasound hype, and can anyone explain how ultrasound deniers suggest that we diagnose the myriad conditions that can ONLY be seen via ultrasound? What do they propose? Just stick our heads in the sand?
Yep. Either other ways of knowing–“intuitive mommas just KNOW that something is wrong” or “if you don’t know there is a problem, you can’t get an intervention—then if something goes wrong, it was meant to be.” They really do think like that.
Unreal.
What about too little/too much amniotic fluid, placenta previa, congenital defects that may require immediate special treatment after birth, suspected IUGR/macrosomia? What about making a more or less accurate due date estimate, especially in women with irregular cycles? Or even how many babies you are having??
I can’t imagine going through a pregnancy without routine scans. It’s like… willingly blindfolding myself in a room full of light. I just had a routine scan yesterday and it was so reassuring to know the baby is developing on schedule.
I’m with you, I hate being in the dark. I mentioned up-thread, we found out at a 7wk dating scan I was carrying twins. That information dictated everything that happened afterwards. As shocking as it was, I was glad to find out then, and not later, as there was more time to get used to the idea and prepare.
I can’t claim special ability to predict dilation based on how a woman looks or acts, beyond the obvious signs. But one of the L&D RNs is a little spooky! She doesn’t have decades if experience, either. Of course we don’t just take her word for it but her powers of observation- I refuse to call it “women’s intuition”- are impressive.
It really is power of observation. I realize this is no proper comparison, but when our goats kidded I always knew they were close. Luckily I didn’t need to check their cervix or assist them in any way, LOL.
Well, sometimes those ultrasounds are wrong and they cause women unnecessary stress.
We can’t be burdening women with that! Women are too frail to handle such terrible knowledge.
I was “unnecessarily stressed” by a false positive result during a routine ultrasound that identified a possible major congenital issue that would have required my baby being treated before being born and undergoing extensive surgery immediately after birth had it been confirmed by another more detailed ultrasound with a specialist a day later. Luckily it was just a false positive but those 24hrs before I knew that were hell to live through. I am thankful that I was in care of trained and skilled medical professionals who could have reacted and saved my baby had that second more detailed ultrasound identified the same condition.
I view my false positive ultrasound scare and my day of agony as part of standard of care that means someone else’s baby who had that same initial result and turned out not to be a false positive was saved. I am thankful for that because I feel that I would be a really ungrateful and ignorant person if I were bitchin’ around about stupid doctors who know nothing and their stupid ultrasounds.
I had some scary “false positives” too. Fetal protein was suspicious, and I refused to do amnio because it’s an invasive procedure. I was diagnosed with IUGR (in retrospect, because of misplaced due date), too. But later, when I gave birth to a normal, healthy, and actually pretty large baby, I was able to smile, exhale with relief and go on with my life.
It’s much better to experience relief after a false-positive scare (“and then there was nothing wrong with her after all, thank God!”) than to reap the consequences of a false-negative, or just lack of information, which prevent the giving of possibly essential treatment.
When they first found my twins at a 7wk scan, it wasn’t clear if they were mono/mono or mono/di. They were too small to see at that point, so we had to wait a week (in fear) for another scan. They were mono/di, very clearly at the 8wk scan, so we breathed a sigh of relief.
Had they been mono/mono, we’d have been referred to an mfm, and monitored much more closely than we were already. True, there’s only so much that can be done for momos anyway, but as GI Joe used to say, “knowing is half the battle.”
Even with our mono/di twins, the OB was on the look out for TTTS—if it is spotted, it is possible to attempt to deal with it, and save both babies. It didn’t happen in our case, but if it had, and no one was looking, we could have lost both of them.
There were twins in the NICU with my son who had TTTS. They were preemies and one was TINY but they survived and seemed to be doing quite well.
My son was closely monitored via u/s for the bulk of my pregnancy because there was a less than 1% chance he might develop a heart defect due to certain antibodies I carry (luckily he did not). As relatively small as the chances were, my doctors said they needed biweekly u/s from 18-32w because it was usually something that was survivable if treated in utero or shortly after birth.
We didn’t have a false positive, but we did have a month of worry while waiting for the youngest to grow because the sonographer couldn’t properly view the LVOT during the 20 week scan. I was more nervous than my husband, because the older sonographer came across (to me) like he was trying very hard to be calm. All clear at 24 weeks thankfully, and a student got a chance to have some hands on experience in imaging various tricky things. Yay for ultrasounds!
You’re gonna get $5 today, treat yo’self! That’s about 1/3 of the price of a Baby Egg!
78%? So they aren’t educated special snowflakes, but are just like any other ordinary mother and have very similar chance of successful VBAC as the rest of us numpties. Except for the one or two or three extra ruptures, but they probably only happened in Portland.
In Portland!!! Of course! (convulses with laughter)
Yes, just ignore Portland!
If you ignore Portland!!!
That is EXACTLY what I thought, also, when I read the sentence about only 2 of the ruptures happening to members.
Wait, were they trying to explain away the number of 5 by saying but not all 5 of these women were actual members of our community when they experienced the rupture as if being a part of their community would have prevented the rupture? She says: “only 2 of the 5 UR’s happened to members WHILE they were members.” Sounds like she’s stressing that as if to say if they had been members it would have been less likely to happen to them.
I think she was pointing out that if they hadn’t of joined the number would be lower.
Jeevan Kuruvilla published the Nav Jivan hospital annual report.
A low resource hospital serving a largely rural and poor population, they had a uterine rupture rate of 1.3%.
While the demographics are unknown, from anecdotal evidence we know that at least a few URs were transfers from attempted home birth or other care centers.
So hurrah for VBAC Facts having an outcome that is not comparable to hospital births in a developed country, but instead is comparable to the outcomes of births in a poor, rural area in a developing region.
Aren’t some of their ruptures caused by traditional healers performing forceful abdominal massage during labor when the baby doesn’t come down?
Yes, “traditional practices” contributed to at least two URs last year.
Yep, and IM oxytocin administered by a local healer if the labour is slow.
A patient half-jokingly asked me to speed up her second stage this way recently. I felt a look of horror cross my face for a second before I laughed back and explained that that’s not done. Few westerners have a real concept of how good maternity care is in this country and how badly you can be hurt in childbirth.
I’ve walked in to find a mother or sister doing exactly that. A little cultural sensitivity and family education goes a long way in that situation. Have to hid the gasp face too!
Or HBAC.
Yeay VBAC facts, you have finally became just like those exotic brown women you idolize! And you didn’t even have to go to an impoverished rural area in a developing nation, where they don’t have aces, to do it! Good for you!
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with likely candidates attempting VBAC in the hospital under responsible medical supervision. My mother had two successful VBACs after my c-section birth. The problem comes with pushing VBAC at all costs, and making it a moral good.
Yeah, VBAC can be, in certain circumstances, a good option. It is never a good thing to make mandatory.
And I don’t think that HBAC is ever a good idea.