Unassisted brake repair. Supportive comments only. No scaremongering.

Wrecked Car 1

Unassisted brake repair. Supportive comments only. No scaremongering.

Sounds stupid, right?

What conclusions could we draw about an internet forum with that description?

  • The people who created the forum have no interest is hearing anything other than what they already believe.
  • The people who created and use the forum understand that the evidence against their choice is very persuasive, so they won’t allow anyone to present it.
  • The people who created and use the forum know that their choice is very dangerous and that the truth about it is scary.
  • The people who use the forum have doubts about their decision, so they are anxious for “support.”
  • The people who use the forum want to promote their choice and therefore have to suppress the truth about the dangers of their choice.
  • The people who created and use the forum lack the most basic knowledge about brakes and have convinced themselves that nothing can go wrong if they do it themselves.

Simply put, the people who created and use the forum know that their choice is dangerous and unsupported by evidence, but are looking for those who will cheer them on as they blithely risk their lives and those of anyone who drives with them.

The same thing applies to the choices of unassisted childbirth, homebirth and vaccine rejection. That’s why there are so many blogs, forums and message board that cannot manage to support the choices unless they suppress the truth.

So, for example, the Mothering.com forum I’m Not Vaccinating, has the following rule:

I’m Not Vaccinating … [is a] support-only [forum]. Posts to these forums should be out of sincere interest for the forum’s support topic and not to argue or debate, nor to criticize, make fun of, or make negative generalizations about others.

Anyone who violates the rules by posting accurate scientific information, will have the post removed. Repeatedly posting accurate scientific information may lead to a permanent ban.

Many homebirth and unassisted birth forums, message boards and blogs have similar rules.

Even the Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA) has a similar community policy, hastily put into place when it became apparently that not everyone was going to accept the lies that MANA feels are necessary to support homebirth midwifery:

Our goal in launching the blog and all of our online communications is to create a safe space for those who want to discuss evidence-based information about midwifery (and related topics)…

Safe from what? Safe from the truth, of course. More than most homebirth advocates, MANA is well aware that homebirth kills babies, and therefore has to hide their own data and lie about what the scientific actually shows, because homebirth with an American homebirth midwife (CPM) makes about as much sense as unassisted brake repair. It is dangerous; the scientific evidence shows that it is dangerous; and the people who promote and profit from it are uneducated, untrained fools.

There is one good thing to come from these policies: when you see such a policy, you can be sure that the choice being promoted by the forum or blog is both dangerous and scientifically indefensible.

142 Responses to “Unassisted brake repair. Supportive comments only. No scaremongering.”

  1. Ellie San Martin
    October 20, 2013 at 1:08 am #

    sounds like you are describing this forum, with the twist that you will accept any posts, & the minions will ridicule, insult & generally disrespect & mistreat those who disagree.

    • Rachel Mills
      October 24, 2013 at 9:08 am #

      “accept any post” is called being open. No one has to agree kindly or nicely with you in an open discussion.

  2. K&R's Peaceful mother
    October 17, 2013 at 12:57 am #

    I’ve read your posts and it turns out from analysis that you have an extreme aversion to natural parenting. You also hate millions of women world wide for not having their children in hospitals. You seem a little obsessive… To the point it appears unhealthy. In every post you’re either mocking women for feeding their children the natural way, or you’re mocking women who have children at home. Look, home-births aren’t that bad, and you’re blowing this way out of proportions. If you look at the population pyramids/graphs you see the highly populated areas are ones with little medical access, and a much more ‘indigenous’ environment. And to a greater shock, the baby population is the highest population for the pyramid. If homebirths are that dangerous, why are the most rural parts of the world so highly populated with babies, and why are these women having several children in their lifetime?

    • Young CC Prof
      October 17, 2013 at 1:17 am #

      “why are these women having several children in their lifetime?”

      Because quite a few of their children die. At birth, shortly after birth, or years later. If you don’t understand that, there’s really no point in explaining anything to you.

      • auntbea
        October 17, 2013 at 11:14 am #

        Because they would like to have lots, but die in childbirth before they can get past “several”?

    • areawomanpdx
      October 17, 2013 at 1:21 am #

      “Why are the most rural parts of the world so highly populated with babies…?” LOL forever.

    • KarenJJ
      October 17, 2013 at 1:23 am #

      Dr Amy is strident and opinionated but what’s all this interpretation that she ‘hates’ stuff?

      “You also hate millions of women world wide for not having their children in hospitals.”

      This seems like a very over the top evaluation of what she is writing about. You are taking it very personally, I think. For me, I hate the misinformation and competitive parenting that is a part of “natural parenting” (and other types too, but since we’re discussing “natural parenting” I’m hppy to focus on that). I don’t “hate” the people. I think they’re misguided or perhaps foolish at best, and a downright sanctimonious menace at worst.

      • auntbea
        October 17, 2013 at 11:13 am #

        I think maybe this peaceful mother is blowing things a bit “out of proportions.”

        • KarenJJ
          October 17, 2013 at 11:19 am #

          The ‘not quite as peaceful as she wants to be’ mother, perhaps. Finding hate in all sorts of areas.

    • Jocelyn
      October 17, 2013 at 1:29 am #

      “You hate millions of women world wide for not having their children in hospitals.” I doubt Dr. Tuteur hates any of the women who choose to have their children at home. What she hates are the lies and misinformation spread about home birth being as safe as delivering in a hospital. Such lies cause women prevent women from being able to make informed choices, and cause needless, tragic deaths.

      “You’re mocking women for feeding their children the natural way.” I have never, in a single post, seen Dr. Tuteur criticize breastfeeding. She is criticizes the lies, misinformation, and judgement surrounding the “breastfeeding vs. formula” debate and defends women’s choices, whether they choose to breastfeed or formula feed.

      “Home births aren’t that bad.” That is up to each woman to decide for herself, ONCE SHE HAS THE CORRECT INFORMATION concerning home birth death and morbidity rates. Home birth advocates almost always hide or distort this information, so that many women believe they are making a safer choice than they actually are.

      “Highly populated areas are ones with little medical access” and “If home births are that dangerous, why are the most rural parts of the world so highly populated with babies, and why are these women having several children in their lifetime?”- If I understand what you’re saying here, you’re saying that rural areas have little medical access. Nevertheless, they are highly populated. Therefore, birth must not be dangerous, because in these areas many children are born and there are many babies.

      Yes, in pretty much all countries rural areas have more limited medical access. Furthermore, in poorer countries around the globe medical care can be very limited, whether in rural or urban areas. Lack of medical care almost always means lack of contraception. Lack of contraceptive options means more women get pregnant, more often. So, “why are these women having several children in their lifetime?” Well, very often, because they have no way to prevent it. Therefore, many more babies are born in developing countries than in developed ones.

      Now, once they’re pregnant, the lack of medical care these women had before pregnancy continues through their pregnancy, through their childbirth, and through their infant’s childhood. This results in more babies dying in utero, more babies and mothers dying in childbirth, and more infants dying in infancy. And yet – there are still so many babies in those areas! Why? Because more women are getting pregnant due to lack of contraception, and also because some women (who desire several children) realize that some of their children are not likely to survive to adulthood, and so have many babies so that SOME of their children will live.

      According to the World Health Organization, 99% of all maternal deaths occur in developing countries. Why? Because they do not have access to the medical advances, technology, and skill that are available to us in developed countries. This article’s a good example of why and how women are dying in developing countries, and some efforts to change that – http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/health/cnnheroes-stachel-solar-power/index.html.

      Lack of medical care is dangerous. Purposely choosing to remove yourself from medical care by choosing to give birth at home instead of at a hospital naturally carries increased risks. This blog is about educating women about those risks, and then letting them decided if that’s really what they want.

    • kumquatwriter
      October 17, 2013 at 1:49 am #

      Oh, Hello, Ellie. Really, this is getting absurd. Please, don’t make me start tracing ip addresses. At the very least, PLEASE try to come up with an even slightly different voice for your sock puppets.

      • KarenJJ
        October 17, 2013 at 2:44 am #

        Ah geez, more? Although it does give me hope if there is only one behind these posts.

      • kumquatwriter
        October 17, 2013 at 12:00 pm #

        I’m the first to say I could be wrong – I’m just making note of her writing style and agenda. Apparently they’re not all from the same IP address, which is higher level than I would have expected.

        • My spidey sense is tingling
          October 17, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

          I have to note something I find extremely suspicious: Three days running we have had some wacky person show up and comment on the previous day’s thread about some mostly unrelated topic. It is always a new commenter. They always try to engage discussion by attacking Dr. Amy or asking some odd question. We have had parachuter’s before, but to have someone who makes a big show of being new reliably showing up every day like this is quite striking. So, yes, kumquat I have to say I do think you’re on to something.

          • kumquatwriter
            October 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

            They’ve all posted near the same time. Though if this one is really from that new earth easy cooperative living joint that opened recently right here in Eugene…well, at least I know that place is just as full of nuts and woo as I thought it would be. Like I said, I’m fine being wrong too. I’d rather be – I’ll take ignorant/foolish and defensive over deliberate manipulating lies any day!

    • yentavegan
      October 17, 2013 at 11:04 am #

      I do understand the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. I know how it feels to have a set of your most fervently held beliefs snatched out from under your feet. You feel as though you are on shaking ground, and that there must be something evil/wrong/dangerous/mal-adaptive/hateful about the women who are in disagreement with your reality. Do not be afraid of the truth, you will soon feel a weight being lifted off your shoulders as the fog clears and you will experience anew an awe and respect for Science.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      October 17, 2013 at 11:23 am #

      Feeding the troll, but where has Dr Amy done this:

      In every post you’re either mocking women for feeding their children the natural way,

      I know that she mocked the woman who made a big display to BF in front of a formula stand, but she was mocked for her grandstanding, not for BF.

    • MrG
      October 17, 2013 at 11:45 am #

      “If homebirths are that dangerous, why are the most rural parts of the world so highly populated?”

      Sadly, there is actually a direct relationship between countries that have high homebirth rates and neonatal mortality. In general, the more homebirths, the higher the neonatal mortality. It’s a complex relationship but if there were enough qualified hospitals and personnel and more access then there would be less dead children.

      Less homebirths=More hospital births=Less dead babies

      http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.NMRT

      • theadequatemother
        October 17, 2013 at 3:16 pm #

        Northern rural india is actually PAYING families so that they will make the effort to deliver in hospital. PAYING them!

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      October 17, 2013 at 11:55 am #

      “If homebirths are that dangerous, why are the most rural parts of the world so highly populated?”

      Isn’t it true that the #1 factor in reducing birthrate is education? Another important factor, apparently, is vaccination.

      What is the relationship with birthrate and wealth? Independent of the education correlation.

      • auntbea
        October 17, 2013 at 12:27 pm #

        I actually don’t know that wealth has much of an independent effect other than through education and/or access to better health care (whether to save existing children or prevent more). It may matter to the extent that wealthier women do not need to marry, and therefore start bearing children, as young.

    • kryssiecat
      October 18, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

      If homebirths in rural parts of the world are “safer” and “healthier”, why is there a greater occurrence of obstetric fistulas in those areas?

    • Captain Obvious
      October 18, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

      Lack of access to birth control, maybe?

  3. Dr Kitty
    October 16, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    Completely OT, I’ve just spent about 45 mins shouting at the TV.
    Have any of you seen the episode of The Good Wife about the surrogacy agreement?
    It managed to get almost every single medical fact wrong.
    Amnio gave an 85% chance of Patau’s (wrong).
    Abortions in the case of severe fetal abnormality are illegal in the third trimester in the USA (wrong).
    Patau’s syndrome could be caused by an improperly performed Amnio (wrong).
    It was just all around a horribly researched episode.

    • jenny
      October 16, 2013 at 9:37 pm #

      When I heard about that episode, I wondered if it was based on this http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/04/health/surrogacy-kelley-legal-battle/

      • R T
        October 17, 2013 at 12:18 am #

        Wow! Yikes, that has me rethinking having a friend be a surrogate for us! I didn’t know they could up and move to a state with different laws during the pregnancy! I feel so bad for the parents and the little baby! I wonder what sort of mental health exams and background checks they do on gestational surrogates? I don’t think I’d want to hire a gestational surrogate who couldn’t even pay her own rent on time!

        • Zornorph
          October 17, 2013 at 1:59 am #

          Use a reputable agency. My surrogate had to have a psych exam (so did I, actually).

          • Karen in SC
            October 17, 2013 at 8:00 am #

            You just re-confirmed that SOB commenters are an excellent resource. How is life going as a new father?

          • Zornorph
            October 17, 2013 at 8:23 am #

            Just great, thanks! It’s everything I ever dreamed of and more.

    • Captain Obvious
      October 16, 2013 at 10:28 pm #

      Glad I missed that

  4. Tara
    October 16, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

    I haven’t read through all 61 comments so I don’t know if anyone else has pointed this out but I don’t think the analogy really does the danger justice. Working on your own car isn’t even on par with home birth or unassisted childbirth. OBs have IMMENSELY more training than auto mechanics and it is really not all that dangerous to change your own brake pads or even replace your own brakes. I understand the message, but there must be a better analogy.

    • Young CC Prof
      October 16, 2013 at 4:52 pm #

      I find airline tickets heavily overpriced, so I’m going to build a plane in the backyard and fly to Europe myself. Any good sources? No scare tactics, please, I trust the Jet Stream.

      • Tara
        October 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

        FANTASTIC!

      • Tim
        October 16, 2013 at 9:47 pm #

        Pretty safe since you likely won’t get off the ground!

    • Leica
      October 16, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

      I agree completely. Cars are very mechanically simple and predictable. Some common sense, patience, a good manual, and the right tools will get you through. I do almost all my own vehicle work and have for 16 years, including brake work. Once I even replaced the entire rear axle of a truck, and just last month I replaced my clutch.

    • fiftyfifty1
      October 16, 2013 at 8:05 pm #

      Well here’s an even worse comparison, but one that keeps popping into my mind unbidden anyway:
      CPMs remind me somehow of the terrorists behind 9/11. They took flight lessons so that they could pilot the planes they highjacked but according to their flight instructors, they always seemed strangely bored with the parts of the lessons that involved landing. In retrospect, it all makes sense: landing the plane wasn’t part of their agenda.
      I know it’s not a perfect analogy, but CPMs’ seemingly total lack of interest in learning how to recognize and treat birth complications strikes me as similar. Their agenda is getting their birth junkie fix and not much else.

    • me
      October 17, 2013 at 9:09 am #

      This. My husband just did a brake job on my car. Of course, he works on aircraft for a living, so I feel I was in good hands. But even if you don’t have an “expert” in the family, doing your own vehicle repair/maintenance isn’t nearly as complicated or dangerous as childbirth has the potential to be.

      We’re a little more complicated than cars πŸ™‚

      • KarenJJ
        October 17, 2013 at 10:22 am #

        True, I’ve done some of my own car maintenance – simple stuff – oil change, filter, coolant etc. No way would you find me holding a scalpel though.

  5. Mel
    October 16, 2013 at 1:44 pm #

    Biggest irony of anti-vaxxers: The adult lets the kid(s) take all of the risks for not being vaccinated. The adult reaps all of the (imaginary) rewards.

    Way to go! That’s a great example of parenting!

    Excuse me while I shoot my infant out of a cannon and put it on You-Tube.

  6. hmm hmm
    October 16, 2013 at 1:39 pm #

    Is it possible to pursue any kind of professional misconduct complaint against Melissa Cheyney, either via the Oregon State IRB (or any other IRB overseeing her research), her department head, faculty, or provost? It seems to me that as a healthcare provider she is committing not only clinical misconduct but also academic misconduct or at least a basic violation of research ethics in suppressing information relevant to informed consent/decisionmaking by her research participants. This is a standard question on every IRB continuing review.

    • Tipster
      October 16, 2013 at 7:26 pm #

      Institutional Review Board
      B308 Kerr Administration Building
      Corvallis, Oregon 97331-2140
      Telephone: (541) 737-8008
      Fax: (541) 737-3093
      e-mail: irb@oregonstate.edu

      IRB Coordinators:
      Jillian Grant
      Amy King
      Michelle Klotz
      Candi Loeb

      Lisa Leventhal, MSS, CIP
      IRB Administrator
      ph. (541) 737-9502
      lisa.leventhal@oregonstate.edu

      I am certain they will be very responsive.

      • Tipster
        October 16, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

        Actually, I take it back. Having just reviewed her publications, I’m realizing she actually hasn’t published anything substantive. Her “research” is composed of “semistructured” interviews of homebirth participants and which is then transformed into academic psychobabble. In my opinion, this type of “research” is a bad perversion of true science. An IRB is unlikely to find any harm on volunteers recounting anecdote. The bigger question is why is a state institution funding this dim bulb?

        • auntbea
          October 16, 2013 at 9:14 pm #

          I definitely have to get IRB for interviews, semi-structured or otherwise; it is certainly easier to get than for medical trials, but most IRBs still take that type of interaction seriously (harm can include exposure to social approbation, potential revelation of sensitive or illegal information, etc.). If the potential harm of the interviews was justified by the knowledge the data provide, but such data are being hidden, then there could be an IRB problem.

          The bigger issue is that I don’t think she ever had IRB approval, so there is no one to complain to. Any researcher who wants the MANA data has to provide evidence of her own IRB approval, but you don’t need to get IRB approval to use data that has already been approved. I asked directly about her IRB approval and she deleted the question.

          • LovleAnjel
            October 17, 2013 at 8:17 am #

            The way our IRB works, you have to get approval before collecting data. We can’t use data collected prior to approval.

  7. Elle
    October 16, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    Well, at least MANA threw in the “evidence-based” requirement. Good grief, what do they think information and science is, anyway? ALL information is “evidence-based.” The key is what kinds of “evidence” they are willing to accept.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      October 16, 2013 at 1:26 pm #

      That’s part of the Orwellian language so beloved of homebirth and natural childbirth advocates. When they say “evidence-based,” they mean “based on no evidence.”

      • mollyb
        October 16, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

        As the late, great attorney Lionel Hutz said “I have plenty of conjecture and hearsay, Your Honor. Those are kinds of evidence.”

        • R T
          October 16, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

          LOL! That’s great!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          October 16, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

          I haven’t watched The Simpsons in a long time. How did Lionel Hutz die?

          • kumquatwriter
            October 16, 2013 at 8:04 pm #

            It isn’t that Hutz died, it was Phil Hartman who voiced him.

          • anion
            October 17, 2013 at 11:45 am #

            I feel so bad “liking” that comment. πŸ™ RIP Phil.

        • LynnetteHafkenIBCLC
          October 16, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

          It’s called anecdotal EVIDENCE for a reason!!!1!

      • Amazed
        October 16, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

        Evidence-based: I am currenly suffering (yet again) because of a vital piece of information a doctor failed to give me. Hence, all doctors are morons and are not to be trusted.

        More evidence-based than this? I’ll be a witness!

    • Young CC Prof
      October 16, 2013 at 2:29 pm #

      Scientism and data analysis are tools of patriarchal oppression. This is a safe space, where we embrace mother wisdom and other ways of knowing.

      I for one rely on the evidence of my soul. My baby was conceived three days after the full moon, so I know he won’t be ready to be born until sunset.

  8. Renee Martin
    October 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm #

    These type of groups take the valid concept of a “safe space” and use it to stop dissent and enforce their norms. I was in one group where the mere mention of something not approved was not allowed, and having opinions they didn’t like (even if they remained unstated!) made you “unsafe”.

    This is a perversion of the idea of a safe space, which was originally used to give oppressed minorities a space free from the usual racism, misogyny, fat shaming, etc. Not to protect some crunchy moms bad ideas.

  9. Are you nuts
    October 16, 2013 at 12:31 pm #

    Somewhat OT – I have an anti-vax facebook friend who was bragging that her pediatrician supports her decision not to vaccinate. What are the legal and ethical implications here? Does her ped have any liability if one of these children end up at the center of a preventable outbreak?

    • Young CC Prof
      October 16, 2013 at 12:40 pm #

      Nothing happened to the pediatrician responsible for that California measles outbreak (infected 7-year-old in a waiting room with infants and other unvaxed kids.) Rumor has it that this pediatrician is also a household name, but I’m not sure there’s any proof of that.

      • R T
        October 16, 2013 at 2:07 pm #

        There’s not. It wasn’t Dr. Sears office. He actually put a statement out about it. People really, really wanted it to be though! http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/04/retraction-of-sorts.html?m=1

      • October 16, 2013 at 2:55 pm #

        *shudder*

        What the hell? I mean, really … what the hell? Primum non nocere and all that- a measles outbreak is terrifying, especially among infants.

      • kumquatwriter
        October 16, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

        A good doctor won’t expose other patients. My son was suspected of having vaccine resistant chicken pox (until the lesions developed enough to rule it out). The pediatric office had us describe them and text pictures in order to make a speculative diagnosis without exposing everyone there. Especially given that he’s fully vaccinated.

        • Young CC Prof
          October 16, 2013 at 3:35 pm #

          Many good pediatricians are now separating out sick kids, especially ones suspected of having something particularly contagious and nasty, from other patients, especially new babies. It’s common sense, really.

          • R T
            October 16, 2013 at 7:27 pm #

            Many Pediatricians now have two separate waiting rooms. One for sick children and one for children just get well baby visits or physicals. It seems like a very good idea even if everyone they see is immunized! In fact it seems like such I good idea I’m surprised its not a standard across the board!

          • FormerPhysicist
            October 16, 2013 at 7:49 pm #

            My kids’ pediatrician does not have two waiting areas, but *my* pediatrician did, 40 years ago. Of course, Boston area real estate is hideously expensive. They do have a supply of masks at the front counter, and ask you to wear one if you are coughing or sneezing.

            Who knows. Two waiting areas seem to make sense, but I don’t want to be exposed to whooping cough just because I may have strep. Moving sick people quickly into separate exam rooms asap makes the most sense. Even if you sit in the exam room waiting for 40 minutes. Our exams rooms are designed to be easily disinfected.

          • rh1985
            October 16, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

            Mine had a separate waiting area and I was born in 1985. I am hoping that my child’s will as well.

          • me
            October 17, 2013 at 9:15 am #

            My pediatrician has separate “well” and “sick” child areas, and also brings newborns immediately back to an exam room. Basically, if your child is less than 3 months, you check in and they send you straight back. Kind of nice πŸ™‚

        • drsquid
          October 16, 2013 at 9:38 pm #

          in the 1970s my mom called the ped and said she thought i had chicken pox.. he said.. ok she probably does. keep her home, and told her how to care for me. ie dont bring her here and give me a practice full of pox. very smart

    • R T
      October 16, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

      In San Diego, a big percentage of the doctors delay vaccinations for their own child or don’t vaccinate them. I mean who do you think the parents are of the 50% or greater unvaccinated children at our expensive private schools?!

      • Burgundy
        October 16, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

        So glad that my kids goes to public school in San Diego, at least, it has 85% or more vaccinated rate. BTW, what is the general location the school that you mentioned? Del Mar, RB, PB and etc?

        • R T
          October 16, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

          Almost every private school throughout the area actually, San Diego has some of, if not, the highest non immunization rates in the state. It’s very concentrated in the upper socio economic areas though!

          • Burgundy
            October 16, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

            I know it was pretty bad in Poway and RB, but didn’t know it was as bad in other area too. I stop taking my baby to a play group in 4S area because I found out 1/2 of the babies was either not vaccinated up to date or not vaccinated at all. I did dilate one of the required shot at 2 weeks old for my younger one because my older one had a pretty bad reaction to it. But turned out my younger one did not have any issues with reactions, so she is back on the schedule now.

          • Young CC Prof
            October 16, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

            Vaccine rejection: Just my way of proving I don’t have enough real problems in my life.

      • Allie P
        October 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

        I find it hard to believe a big percentage of the doctors delay/deny vaccination to their children. I think that’s a lie the anti-vaxxers like to spread around. “Doctors know the TRUTH, so they don’t vaccinate.” I don’t know a single doctor who doesn’t vaccinate their children. I *do* know “chiropractors” and “naturopathic” ND (stands for “Not a Doctor”) who call themselves docs that don’t vaccinate. But do they count?

        • R T
          October 16, 2013 at 4:29 pm #

          It’s really not a lie depending on the area of the country you’re in. I mean one of the my areas most popular pediatricians did a whole interview on the news about her natural birth, drug free birth. I saw it on the news and read about it online a couple years ago. I just looked for it but couldn’t find, but I’ll keep looking. I personally know a family practice doctor who did not vaccinate his children and his children are now not vaccinating their children. I know a Peditrician who did delayed vaccinations. I know it’s hard to believe but it’s true!

          • Isilzha
            October 16, 2013 at 7:16 pm #

            Anecdotes are not data. Just because you’ve seen a doctor do a “whole interview on the news” and “personally know a family practice doctor who did not vaccinate” says NOTHING about doctors as a group.

          • R T
            October 16, 2013 at 7:20 pm #

            Nothing I have said says anything about doctors as an entire group, lol! What are you talking about? I said many doctors in San Diego do delayed vaccines or don’t vaccinate. There are also many, more, that do vaccinate and I’m sure strongly disagree with the views held by the group of doctors who think differently than them!

          • auntbea
            October 16, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

            Backpeddle, backpeddle. You said, a “big percentage” of doctors in San Diego don’t vaccinate, and attributed a 50% non-vaccination in private schools to them. Your evidence for this is one guy you know and a dude on the news, out of however many thousands of pediatricians practice in San Diego. So, either you are intentionally trying to spin anecdata to make a stink or you have a serious problem with fractions.

          • R T
            October 17, 2013 at 12:49 am #

            You really think I meant 50% off the students in private schools in a relatively large city are all doctors children? You’re being silly at this point because you can’t possibly really think that! When I said a large percent I didn’t say a majority, but compared to the rest of the country it’s a big number! Also, if you think there are thousands of pediatricians in San Diego I think you’re the one with problems with numbers! There may be 1,000 but there aren’t thousands. There’s only about 300,000 children under 18 in San Diego so not enough patients for thousands of pediatricians and not all children go to pediatricians. Many doctors with alternative views on vaccinations aren’t pediatricians! I think pediatricians are the most likely of all to be provaccination! Anyway, don’t shoot the messenger because what I’m saying upsets you. The area were I live has Dr. Fischbein, Dr. Sears, Dr. Biter, the doctors I know and many other doctors of like mind who are very quiet about their views. It’s an area of the country where people, even doctors, who push home birth, ap parenting, modified vaccines schedules, choose to live and work and have their own families.

          • auntbea
            October 17, 2013 at 11:10 am #

            I’m not shooting the messenger because he says something that upsets me. I am shooting the messenger because he is presenting a n of one and calling it evidence of a trend. You still have provided NO evidence, other than a personal friend and a guy on the news, that more than two doctors in all of San Diego practice or push modified vaccine schedules.

          • Isilzha
            October 17, 2013 at 3:35 am #

            If this wasn’t down in the icky black of the comments I’d post the study I found earlier stating that ~95% of pediatricians support the vaccination schedule and vaccinate their own kids accordingly.

            No one is surprised that there are a few lunatics who actually have a medical degree but still go around spouting anti-science nonsense. If you look closely though you’ll find most of them have something else to sell you! Think vaccines cause autism? Well, I have some really expensive, painful and long-term remedies to help with that.

        • R T
          October 16, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

          I couldn’t find the story about the Peditrician, which is strange because I watched the video about two years ago, but I did remember and find a video from Southcoast Midwifery http://www.southcoastmidwifery.com/ it features a cardiologist and his ER doctor wife talking about their homebirth! Don’t you think if they can do a home birth they would be the same type of people to do a delayed vaxx schedule? It’s a different sort of mind set in SoCal!

          • Young CC Prof
            October 16, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

            Actually, my online birth month club has LOTS of natural childbirth fans, including quite a few women who would at least consider home birth, but we’re almost all profoundly pro-vaccine. One recent thread was about “What do I do about in-laws who want to visit right after the birth, but won’t get their boosters?”

          • R T
            October 16, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

            Being a natural birth fan and having a homebirth or a free standing birth center birth in the US are completely different don’t you think? These aren’t doctors choosing natural birth in a hospital! These are doctors choosing homebirths or birth center births!

      • Susan
        October 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

        I’m not in San Diego but while at my son’s Montessori school there were lots of doctor’s kid they weren’t the ones who weren’t vaccinating. I have actually never met a doctor who was anti vacc…

      • Susan
        October 16, 2013 at 3:21 pm #

        wow not sure about the doctors kids parts but this article about San Diego backs you up on the private school problem!

        http://www.kpbs.org/news/2013/sep/18/shot-delays-alternative-vaccine-schedules-mean-few/

        • Burgundy
          October 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

          In the news interview, a parent said his kids didn’t need polio, measles or whooping cough vaccination because those disease did not sound real to him. He said no one he knew had it. Well, we did have kids die from whooping cough in 2010 in the great SD area. Now we have outbreaks here, thanks to those morons…

      • Are you nuts
        October 16, 2013 at 4:46 pm #

        Good point!

      • Box of Salt
        October 17, 2013 at 4:06 am #

        Anyone who wants to check immunization rates for California’s schools can do so here:

        http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Pages/ImmunizationLevels.aspx

        Statewide, the rate of Personal Beliefs Exemption is 5% at kindergarten for 2012-13 – that means 95% of children are covered.

        San Diego county has 90% coverage for all immunizations.

        You can check rates for individual schools on the Excel spreadsheets at the same link above.

        A quick glance through the list did reveal some alarming low coverage rates – mostly in religious or Montessori schools with very low enrollment.

        • Box of Salt
          October 17, 2013 at 11:38 am #

          After checking the spread sheet this morning, I will add:
          At one of the most well known and affluent private schools in San Diego, LaJolla Country Day School, 100% of the kindergartners were immunized this year.

        • Burgundy
          October 17, 2013 at 11:51 am #

          the Montessori school down from my street has about 50% rate. I was thinking putting my older one there, but decided to put her to the public school near by. The low vac rate is one of the reason.

    • Tara
      October 16, 2013 at 4:53 pm #

      All of the doctors I know vaccinate.

    • LynnetteHafkenIBCLC
      October 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

      Maybe by “supports” she means the doctor acknowledges the fact that s/he cant force the parent to vaccinate and isn’t willing to fire a patient over the parent’s refusal to give recommended treatment.

  10. ol
    October 16, 2013 at 11:03 am #

    I think there are three more reason for it:
    1. a person may become a hostage of his/her own really risky decision if the situation turned out to be good (she gave birth at home and everything was fine);
    2. it is easiear to change social enviroment than the reality if something conradicts to reality (something I like is risky, I can’t make it less risky, but I can surrond myself with people saying things I like), people are very social creatures;
    3. Need for social support. If I lack for it, I can join to some group (or idea), and I’ll get much support. And if deny or have doubts about the idea, I’ll lost this support and it can be very sensitive and have some support instead of to feel more comfortable.

    • Are you nuts
      October 16, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

      I think the social aspect is big. In reading some of these message boards/blogs/facebook posts, I have to wonder if these women have friends in real life. Or if they depend on hours-long appointments with their lay midwives and message board “friends” for social interaction.
      I realize the hypocrisy of posting this on a blog comment.. ha. But it’s a slow day at work and I do actually have lunch plans here in a minute with a real life friend. πŸ™‚

  11. Karen in SC
    October 16, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    Good point, although there probably are car forums where home mechanics trade knowledge. I’m sure they are drama free. πŸ™‚

    • Burgundy
      October 16, 2013 at 11:42 am #

      My husband is on one of them. I have to say they have way less drama they have no problem sharing ideas and taking critics.

      • Young CC Prof
        October 16, 2013 at 11:52 am #

        Possibly because they don’t believe that cars fix themselves, and no matter how much they love that piece of metal, most car fans don’t get offended on the car’s behalf when you start talking about maintenance and repair.

        “How dare you suggest my car is broken!”

  12. Allie P
    October 16, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    A family member I’m sorry to say is a vet and I thought was better than this, is posting all these mothering.com articles on her facebook page. The latest howler “The first birth is more important than you can imagine.” I read it so you don’t have to: the article posits that even a “healing” HBAC is not going to “save” you — the first birth is a sacred experience that can never be replicated or recovered from if you “fail”.

    • anon
      October 16, 2013 at 11:02 am #

      my first birth I was 16, had Demerol, laughing gas, an episiotomy, and a vacuum assisted delivery. Good to know a healing HBAC wouldn’t save me since I have no intention in having one. There were parts to all my labours that sucked, all in all they were fantastic hospital experiences.

    • I don't have a creative name
      October 16, 2013 at 12:23 pm #

      I can’t imagine the pressure one would feel, buying into this crap. My gosh, not putting forth a good performance would be both ruining your life and complete humiliation all at once. It’s like my fear of public speaking, except with my vagina.

      Too bad that statement wasn’t “the first birth (and all subsequent ones) is the sacred experience of bringing another human into the world, a human who can never be replicated or recovered if you fail them by killing them or maiming them by failing to seek proper medical care.”

      • kumquatwriter
        October 16, 2013 at 3:54 pm #

        Your vagina does public speaking?!

        (semi-related: am I the only one who has seen the movie Chatterbox?)

        • anion
          October 16, 2013 at 3:56 pm #

          What, you mean yours doesn’t?

          • kumquatwriter
            October 16, 2013 at 4:03 pm #

            It just let out a scream when I dropped my cold soda on it laughing…

          • kumquatwriter's vagina
            October 16, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

            Don’t listen to her – she never listens to me anyway.

        • I don't have a creative name
          October 17, 2013 at 1:09 am #

          Yes. In fact it’s typing this message to you right now.

        • Zornorph
          October 17, 2013 at 1:55 am #

          I saw ‘Teeth’, but never heard of Chatterbox. How come there are no similar penis movies?

          • auntbea
            October 17, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

            Aren’t there some talking sperm in some movie from the 80’s?

          • Zornorph
            October 17, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

            Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex (But Were Afraid To Ask) but that’s from 1972 and it’s a Woody Allen movie. Not sure that he qualifies as a ‘man’ and his neurotic talking sperm hardly inspires feelings of bro-hood.

          • auntbea
            October 17, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

            I was actually thinking of this, 1989: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65BV5dXXxzM

          • kumquatwriter
            October 17, 2013 at 12:40 pm #

            But there are! “Me & Him” is one…jeez, I know too much about this very specific film subgenre…in my defense, “Me & Him” came out around the same time as “Roger & Me,” Michael Moore’s big break. I may have mixed up the titles when we rented the latter…

    • Squillo
      October 16, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

      It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you place huge importance on certain aspects of a process that’s inherently unpredictable, chances are pretty good you’re going to be disappointed. If you constantly hear that you should be traumatized by these disappointments, chances are you’re going to be convinced that you’ve been traumatized.

    • Mel
      October 16, 2013 at 1:41 pm #

      I don’t want a vet who believes this crap working on my cows.

      A win in labor and delivery is very, very simple: live mom + live baby. In case of emergencies – like when we need to call the vet – the math is even easier = save the mom if you can. The calf is probably already dead, but if you can save both, you are a super-hero.

      • Young CC Prof
        October 17, 2013 at 12:24 am #

        Actually, if I remember correctly, cows have the second-highest rate of labor obstruction in the animal kingdom, not far behind us. (It’s much less common in, say, deer and buffalo than it is in domestic animals bred for size.)

        We survive as a species because we help one another deliver. Cows survive because the farmers and vets who bred them for great size and fast growth have these nifty things called hands that can help get stuck calves unstuck.

        I like science…

    • Jessica
      October 16, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

      My priorities for my son’s birth were (1) Healthy baby and (2) Healthy me. I had a strong preference for a vaginal delivery, but beyond that, I really didn’t care. I didn’t have a birth plan and figured I’d get the epidural. I found the process of childbirth more painful and difficult than I imagined, and I was unhappy with the care I received in the hospital. I felt damaged by the birth (nurses erroneously told me I had a third degree tear) and the baby blues didn’t help my perspective on it all.

      So if I as an intervention happy woman can find that first birth overwhelming and scary and exhausting even when everything goes and ends well, what happens to the NCBer/no intervention first time mother gives birth and things go off plan? God, what a disservice they do to do women with this crap.

    • slandy09
      October 16, 2013 at 4:24 pm #

      Ugh.

    • Maria
      October 16, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

      My friend and I were just discussing this issue of romanticizing birth. She kept getting told that giving birth is a “beautiful” thing and her response is “No, it is not. It hurt like hell and because everyone kept encouraging me to delay my epidural, I ended up not being able to get one. I do not want to do that again!” Nothing sacred about it. Happy healthy baby? Check. Happy (in pain) healthy Mom? Check. Semi-religious experience about how how “strong” our bodies are? Not so much.

      • araikwao
        October 16, 2013 at 4:39 pm #

        A thousand times yes. Birth is barbaric. The *baby* – now that’s beautiful.

    • auntbea
      October 16, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

      I have one friend who is a vet, and a very good one in fact. She is also way into childbirth woo and would have delivered her own child if her husband hadn’t threatened divorce. So far our sample of two is showing a perfect correlation!

    • drsquid
      October 16, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

      hrm… does my twin delivery count as my first?: or my first and second? daughter came out with epidural no pit etc, son was second and needed pit and vacuum? can i send him back?

  13. Are you nuts
    October 16, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    I love this! So many other possibilities. “Teaching myself how to fly an airplane unassisted. Supportive comments only.” “Giving my husband an at-home vasectomy. No fear mongering.”

    • anion
      October 16, 2013 at 10:53 am #

      You know, if your husband believes in himself and knows that the pain is all in his head, he can get an at-home vasectomy without any of that evil pain relief.

      As long as he’s a real warrior man, anyway.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa
        October 16, 2013 at 11:14 am #

        Let me be the first to say, I am NOT a “real warrior man” and and happy to say that MY vas was done in a dr office with pain meds.

        • Burgundy
          October 16, 2013 at 11:38 am #

          What? you didn’t let out your inner lion?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            October 16, 2013 at 11:42 am #

            What? And give up the chance to get hopped up on valium and vicodin? Not on your nelly.

            Granted, I quit the pain meds after a day or so but still used a supporter. I don’t know if a jockstrap qualifies as in intervention or not.

          • DaisyGrrl
            October 16, 2013 at 12:54 pm #

            Of course it does. Any supportive garment not stitched from the wool of some endangered species is an unacceptable intervention. Fortunately, I have a special sling that is absolutely not an evil intervention available for sale. Only $99.99!

          • Mrs Dennis
            October 16, 2013 at 1:54 pm #

            I now have visions of little boys’ winkies, newly circ’ed, being ‘hatted’ with tiny egg cosies…

          • DaisyGrrl
            October 16, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

            We can call them Willie Warmers

          • auntbea
            October 16, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

            Did the doctor recommend it? Or did he tell you it probably wouldn’t help as much as meds? In the first case, intervention. In the latter, independent thought, papa.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            October 16, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

            Not only did the doc recommend it, he told me to bring it along to the appt.

            Intervention!

          • Mrs Dennis
            October 16, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

            Did it have a cascade of lace? If so, then yes.

          • KoryO
            October 16, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

            If the jock was fair trade/organic, it’s all good.

          • Tim
            October 16, 2013 at 12:38 pm #

            I didn’t scream when he sliced open my scrotum, I was vocalizing to express my inner hunter

          • Burgundy
            October 16, 2013 at 1:43 pm #

            OMG, I am laughing so hard that my co-workers are giving me looks….

        • drsquid
          October 16, 2013 at 9:20 pm #

          did you have a doula, chiropractor, craniosacral therapist, and herbal practitioner so you could avoid interventions?

    • Dr Kitty
      October 16, 2013 at 11:03 am #

      You know an at-home vasectomy would be totally doable with only basic skills*.Certainly less skill and less risk than resolving a difficult shoulder dystocia.

      In Iran I believe the state surgeons have vasectomies down to a 5 minute procedure and they give the men the pieces of their severed vas in a specimen jar to take home to show their wives as proof they had it done!

      * I do not recommend at-home vasectomies.

      • Tim
        October 16, 2013 at 11:07 am #

        Urology is an evil money making scheme perpetrated on innocent men by the medical establishment who just wants then to hand over their hard earned cash.

        • kumquatwriter
          October 16, 2013 at 3:56 pm #

          Interesting, how this doesn’t hold ANY water as an argument once the pronouns change…

      • I don't have a creative name
        October 16, 2013 at 12:25 pm #

        “You know an at-home vasectomy would be totally doable with only basic skills”

        Lay vasectomy-providers, offering this sacred experience in your own home, away from the hateful claws of Big Medicine. Take a few CEU’s and I bet in Oregon you’d be qualified to do castrations. I can see it now.

      • Amy M
        October 16, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

        I am not making this up, I learned how to vasectomize mice at one of my jobs some years ago, and could do it quickly and it was very minimally invasive. I imagine it is similar on a human male…..

        • Karen in SC
          October 16, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

          Wow, Amy!! When I open my Airstream birthing center that travels to hospital parking lots and transfers 100% of patients, I will need another gig for in between births.

          Can you teach me? We can just Skype and if I can observe a few on Youtube, that’s good enough.

          • Amy M
            October 16, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

            Sure! All we need is some scissors, some really big forceps (we only needed little ones for the mice, but you know, the scale varies with humans), some surgical staples and glue, and a bunsen burner.

          • auntbea
            October 16, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

            I really hope the bunsen burner is for sterilization and not for….something else.

        • drsquid
          October 16, 2013 at 9:27 pm #

          when i took my girl cat in to get fixed it was during a spay neuter clinic. i got to watch and was offered the opportunity to fix a boy cat.. i still regret saying no

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