You martyred your son for your birth experience. Was it worth it?

Liberty or Death

The mind is an amazing thing. There is really no limit to the human capacity for shedding responsibility for hurting and even killing others. VBAC advocates seem to be particularly adept at this form of denial.

Consider the following story of a baby who died a preventable death at  a VBA2C. The short version:

The mother had a terrible obstetric history, 3 preterm deliveries, one vaginal, a C-section for preterm breech and a C-section for bleeding placenta previa. She was a horrible candidate for VBAC, with a low chance of success and a high chance of rupture. No hospital would accept her for VBA2C because the risk of rupture and death was too high. She decided to labor at home and show up at the hospital fully dilated. Unfortunately she did have a catastrophic uterine rupture and the baby did die EXACTLY as she was warned. Nonetheless, several months after the fact, she is still babbling that this was both unpredictable an unsurvivable. She is flat out wrong on both points.

This is the way she tells the story on a VBAC support website:

Her terrible obstetric history

My first daughter was a PPROM at 31.5wks, born natural vaginal in about 4 hrs post rupture . No augment or meds to stop labor. Was amazing and despite 24days in NICU she is amazing!

My next baby we were so freaked out about prematurity … [A]t 32.5wks .. I was having contrax, we went in for steroids and “stop meds”. During this antepartum stay I was bullied and badgered and harassed. My breech baby girl also had ‘low fluid’ … [They] told us if we didn’t surgically deliver that day my daughter would die. BIRTH TRAUMA occurred for me and major PPD 9months after due to horrible 21day NICU stay and crap bonding (despite steroids her lungs were crap for a 34week girl) …

… 3rd daughter was bound and determined to get to ten! birth vaginally! no bullying allowed! Alas, due to csection, a complete centered placenta previa. Made it to 35weeks when a bleeding placenta forced surgical delivery. Healing birth don’t get me wrong but hospital policy dictated an antepartum stay for a few days during which I was asked to “presign” consent etc and had to fight doctors … my hubby and I even had social workers sent in for us because my RN (who was 8months pregnant) couldn’t understand that a healthy baby was NOT my only goal outcome. (my emphasis)

Three times this mother was in danger of a baby dying. Once she was even in danger of dying herself. Instead of being grateful, she was angry at not having a specific birth experience. After all, a healthy baby was NOT her only goal.

Her interpretation of being told that she was not a suitable candidate for VBA2C:

We had been working with a CNM, OB, MFM doc all on the same page: the two closest hospitals WOULD NOT let me labor without being bullied and badgered for a csection. I was told to come “ready to deliver” which to me meant to labor at home for as long as possible.

Imagine that; they bullied her by telling her that the risk of her baby dying was high. So instead of giving up her “experience” for a live baby, she decided to stay home until the hospital would be forced to let her deliver vaginally.

She and her doula missed the signs of uterine rupture. After multiple hours of regular contractions she felt a “kick” and then continuous pain:

She and I couldn’t differentiate contrax as I was feeling almost tetanic but still very much cramping sensations

Her grossly irresponsible CNM let her labor at home alone and arrived to find that the baby was dead.

 [The rupture] was catastrophic. But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding. My son most likely died within the first 10 minutes though we will never know and for that I am grateful. My CNM arrived around midnight as planned and she couldn’t find baby’s heartbeat. After that I went into shock quite promptly and was eventually ambulance transferred for emergency surgery where my son was removed from my abdomen (he was up by my spleen) and 2 liters of blood was removed from my peritoneal cavity. I needed one blood transfusion but my uterus had stopped bleeding completely so the Dr stitched the now small hole and left it in my pelvis. Though he commented “Never use it again!”

Let’s recap:

A woman with a terrible obstetric history was told that she was not a candidate for a VBA2C because the risk of uterine rupture and death of her baby was too high, even for hospitals that routinely handled VBACs. So instead she decided to labor at home, where a rupture would surely be a death sentence for her baby. Just as she was warned, she ruptured and the baby died. How does she justify the entirely preventable death of her son?

Had this happened in the hospital most likely it would not have given us a healthy or alive son. It was a quick rupture per the 3 OBs that were in the OR, like a popped balloon, not a slow tear. There was no predicting it though per our perinatologist, as it is not evidence based to measure scar thickness to TOLAC. We would most likely not have been presenting to a hospital this early in labor anyway, having not lost mucus plug or water breaking etc. And after a pregnancy so unlike all my others, with everything going our way, why would I have thought about rupture?

NO PREDICTING IT? The told her repeatedly that they would not oversee a VBA2C specifically BECAUSE they thought she would rupture.

Hospital birth would not have given us a health or alive son? That’s pure bullshit. Had she had a C-section prior to labor, her baby would be alive and healthy. Had she gone to the hospital and had a C-section at the first sign of labor, her baby would be alive and healthy. And the odds are high that if she had experienced the exact same rupture in the hospital, her baby would be alive and healthy. The ONLY reason her baby is dead is because she chose to martyr him on the altar of vaginal birth. She let him die.

But, as I say, the human mind is an amazing thing. She still hasn’t accepted responsibility for her choice.

We were given the statistics respectfully and it was our choice to make. Obviously the wrong one for my son but how were we to know?

How were you to know? BECAUSE THEY TOLD YOU!!!

There is at least a glimmer of awareness:

I do have more posts coming related to the birth and VBAC, specifically one called , “I Martyred My Son” but since it is highly political I am really working it to make it right.

But only the tiniest glimmer:

My story should not be taken as a scare tactic. I would still have made the same choice but wish we had the option to attempt this in the hospital. I will never know if we could have saved my son if given the opportunity to monitor him earlier.

But what we ALL know is that if she had agreed to a C-section, he would be alive, cooing, babbling, smiling at his older sisters, and instead he is DEAD! All the potential of a life that had limitless potential was snuffed out just because his mother wanted to experience a vaginal birth.

She martyred her son for her own birth “experience.” I’d like to know if it was worth it.

1,207 Responses to “You martyred your son for your birth experience. Was it worth it?”

  1. Stacy48918
    April 11, 2015 at 6:54 am #

    Update: http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-jumble.html
    Glad they’re both alive…best I can say right now.

  2. FortyMegabytes
    February 25, 2015 at 2:59 pm #

    As a follow-up, she’s pregnant again and is actually due any day now.

    Her plans are for a surgical birth this time.

    At least she did learn, although at a terrible cost.

  3. Ash
    October 28, 2014 at 10:41 am #

    Was the “I Martyred My Son” essay ever published?

  4. ALTDoula
    June 11, 2014 at 4:09 am #

    Really late jumping on here but I had to leave a comment because this is local for me. I’ve read this post before but the connection wasn’t there. Now that I am aware, I’m literally just freaking out, unable to sleep… both of my babies were born at the hospital in which she works. The OBs and nurses there are amazing; I’ve dealt with them as a patient and as a doula. What really scares me is that the CNM mentioned is known in my local NCB community as one that is “really good about transfers.” I am now petrified for any woman in my town that chooses homebirth.

  5. Stacy21629
    May 1, 2014 at 11:53 pm #

    Beth.

    The mother’s name is Beth. I didn’t realize until tonight that her name is on her blog. I’ve been referring to her as the “mother” or this “woman” and I feel badly for not using her name. Certainly we’ve all used the baby’s name – Griffin.

    My office manager’s name is also Beth and she had a baby recently. PROM at 36 weeks, 6 pounds, healthy hospital birth. I saw him Tuesday evening – smiling under a baseball cap too big for his head. I am fairly certain he shares his birthday with poor little Griffin. Oh what should have been. 🙁

    • Young CC Prof
      May 2, 2014 at 12:18 am #

      Should have been indeed.

    • Bombshellrisa
      May 2, 2014 at 12:53 am #

      The “everything is too big on this baby” baby! I had one of those : )

  6. sdsures
    May 1, 2014 at 4:35 pm #

    The delusion, it burns.

  7. Stacy21629
    April 30, 2014 at 11:17 pm #

    Now she seems to hint at trying AGAIN for another baby. She says that giving birth would be a “win” for her and likens achieving a vaginal delivery to climbing a mountain. Except that she “could not have known” she was fall into a crevasse and lose Griffin (nevermind all the OBs, MFMs, etc…). But now…:
    “I don’t know how long it might take to attempt a run at the summit again. ”

    Maybe she just means going on with life in general…but it’s an interesting way to word things…

    She also calls the night before Griffin died the “Happiest Day of her Life”. Never mind those other 3 healthy kids she has.

    Ug. I really want to feel badly for her but the delusion is unbelievable.

    • Young CC Prof
      April 30, 2014 at 11:37 pm #

      God, please don’t give this woman another child until she gets some therapy and learns to accept reality.

    • Bombshellrisa
      May 1, 2014 at 12:39 am #

      She doesn’t know much about mountain climbing. Of this was Everest, no climbing company would allow her to climb with them.

      • Mishimoo
        May 1, 2014 at 1:08 am #

        Could you imagine what she would write about the attempt though?

        My dad went to the Himalayas in ’97 and on the way up to Everest Base Camp, the guide went too far too fast. The medical supplies had either been depleted or stolen/sold, and the group somehow ended up in a small hospital with such bad altitude sickness that the doctor put them in the room next to the morgue, for ease of transport. They managed to survive and as far as I know, none have tried to do it again. There’s probably a lesson in that.

      • Renee Martin
        May 1, 2014 at 11:25 pm #

        Everest is closed to climbers this year, after a bunch of Sherpas died in an avalanche. Its thought to be too deadly this season to allow climbing. You know, managing risk vs the responsibility of keeping peole safe. Imagine that!?.

        This mom is more reckless than a climber attempting a climb that kills people regularly. NICE
        I am sure HB is more dangerous than mountain climbing as it is.

        • Bombshellrisa
          May 2, 2014 at 12:51 am #

          Someone ran the numbers once and it was indeed found that home birth is the more dangerous of the two. Although they are both things that are to be attempted by only the healthiest, lowest risk people and be accompanied or in the care of people who understand when the attempt must be stopped.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2014 at 10:22 am #

            Someone ran the numbers once and it was indeed found that home birth is the more dangerous of the two.

            Climbing Mt Everest is much more dangerous than HB. The death rate of Everest climbers (in terms of attempts) is something like 2%.

            “Trying to climb Mount Everest” is one of the few things that people do that is more dangerous than childbirth.

            My favorite: in terms of daily risk, childbirth is more dangerous than being on death row in the US.

          • Bombshellrisa
            May 2, 2014 at 6:27 pm #

            I can’t remember which person here did it, but they calculated that the risk of home birthing in Oregon is more dangerous than climbing Everest although with the recent tragedy on Everest that might be different now.

    • Who?
      May 1, 2014 at 1:30 am #

      I read that too, hoped I’d taken it the wrong way, but maybe not.

      Hopefully husband might withhold his services until her head is a little clearer?

    • FormerPhysicist
      May 1, 2014 at 9:42 am #

      Too many comments to find it again – but someone posted a quote about summit fever earlier. Prescient much?

      • May 1, 2014 at 10:38 am #

        If this was happening in any other online situation, I’d say she was reading this discussion board and tailoring her commentary to maximize attention and drama. I do not believe that is what is happening here, but it’s creeping me out anyway.

    • moto_librarian
      May 1, 2014 at 11:02 am #

      She said that the OB who did her section after the rupture told her not to use her uterus again. If she gets pregnant again, it may well kill both her and the baby. At this point, you need to think about your other children, and what impact losing their mother would have on them.

    • anh
      May 3, 2014 at 4:42 pm #

      I just don’t get it. I honestly really don’t. When I look at my daughter I see a feisty redhead who cracks me up and sings songs with me. Sure, I pushed her out of my vagina….but who the hell cares? the second they are out…who the hell cares how they got here?
      my eyes suck. I need strong glasses.
      my husband’s lungs suck and he needs asthma meds.

      neither of us are particularly upset about these issues. why would someone care about the circumference of their pelvis?

      My own body issues are my own. what kind of asshole would I be the actually gestate a child to validate me?

  8. Guest
    April 30, 2014 at 10:43 pm #

    OT- can anyone give me a brief takedown on the Farm “statistics” they post? Besides of course they risk out everyone. Thanks in advance.

      • Guest
        April 30, 2014 at 11:13 pm #

        Thank you. I am specifically referring to the vbac success rates of 96.8%, which someone is using to try and convince women that HBACS are safe as long they use natural birth practices. :/

        • Guest
          April 30, 2014 at 11:14 pm #

          The rates posted on their website that is.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 1, 2014 at 2:11 am #

            Since she never published it in a peer review scientific journal it is obvious that she is making it up.

        • Elizabeth A
          May 1, 2014 at 11:20 am #

          Keep in mind that the Farm employs a number of both explicit and implicit strategies for screening patients. They have a low-risk patient pool.

          And no one is exactly supervising their data collection, so it’s not crazy to suspect that it’s bullshit.

        • Renee Martin
          May 1, 2014 at 11:53 pm #

          She is a liar, and she could very well be making this shit up entirely.

          But, since they value a vaginal birth without pain meds over life, so I could actually see those numbers being accurate. They are also remote, and those that birth there are probably pretty brainwashed, or even totally indoctrinated. Who would tell Ina NO? Or leave?

          I always wondered how many dead babies they have buried out there. I am sure there are lots of off grid pregnancies among those women, so if a baby died, who would be the wiser? They could give it a “spiritual burial at the center of midwifery” or some such nonsense.

  9. Bombshellrisa
    April 29, 2014 at 10:07 pm #

    OT: just heard the greatest line on Steven Colbert: “there is nothing more vintage than dying of rubella”.

  10. MLE
    April 29, 2014 at 9:07 pm #

    From a post on her blog: “The thoughtful doctors and nurses that brought him earthside for me attempted to bring him back from the dead; forty-five minutes they worked in a fruitless fight for him, and for our family. His little body had given up two hours before, though, and in the end there was no saving him. I worried when I heard of their valiant attempt, not for anything but vanity…I knew he was gone before he was born, so I worried he too would be scarred from his experience.”

    What in the world?

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 9:08 pm #

      She’s a nut. That’s really about all there is to it. See her post about stretch marks and scars. She’s “glad” her baby didn’t end up with too many injections/punctures/scars etc. She’s happy to have born the scars for him. Gag.

      Notice that she’s worried her DEAD BABY would be scarred. Never mind the poor doctors and nurses trying to revive him. Who cares about their mental health in all this.

      • prolifefeminist
        April 29, 2014 at 11:58 pm #

        Well, if her baby had been scarred it would have ruined all the photos.

        That sounds harsh, and I truly don’t mean to sound harsh. I just….I just cannot imagine for one single second that I would think about vanity at a time like that. I’m sorry. I normally can understand where people are coming from even if I totally disagree with them, but I’m having a hard time understanding this woman’s mindset.

        • Stacy21629
          April 30, 2014 at 12:27 am #

          I don’t think it’s harsh. I think it’s spot on. She’s selfish enough not to care about saving her baby’s life. It makes sense (well, not really, but in a psychotic i’m-ok-with-killing-my-baby kind of way) that she would care so much more about the physical appearance of her baby’s body than his actual life.

          • Anj Fabian
            April 30, 2014 at 5:53 am #

            She created a detailed fantasy scenario about how each of her daughters would greet their new brother.

            I find it very difficult to understand this woman.

          • anne
            April 30, 2014 at 11:15 am #

            I find it very difficult to understand how someone keeps knocking her up. She’s clearly mentally incompetent on the subject of pregnancy/childbirth. It sounds like she turned down a c-section in one of her previous labors and her husband had to step in and agree for her.

          • Bombshellrisa
            May 1, 2014 at 12:43 am #

            Yeah, things rarely go the way you imagine when it’s sibling meeting time. I distinctly told my parents my brother was ugly and I didn’t want him. My dd gave baby brother a quick once over and then proceeded to ignore him and tell me all about her day.

          • MLE
            April 30, 2014 at 10:38 am #

            Yet ANOTHER reason to resent those doctors. Ugh there they are trying to bring him back to life like a bunch of saps.

      • Mac Sherbert
        April 30, 2014 at 2:18 pm #

        Well, if she were really happy to have born the scars for him wouldn’t she have just gotten the C-section to begin with?

      • sdsures
        May 1, 2014 at 4:37 pm #

        Link please?

      • Renee Martin
        May 1, 2014 at 11:54 pm #

        She didn’t worry about his death scarring him.
        How delusional.

    • Jessica S.
      April 29, 2014 at 9:55 pm #

      •/ <— my attempt at an emoticon of me throwing my arms up in the air, a la "who knows!" 🙂

      • MLE
        April 29, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

        My arms have flown off my body after spending extended time over there!

        • KarenJJ
          April 30, 2014 at 1:52 am #

          o

          (more then two characters)

      • Karen in SC
        April 29, 2014 at 11:06 pm #

        Looks more to me like pressing your hands over your cheeks like that famous painting The Scream.

      • April 29, 2014 at 11:07 pm #

        I think you mean this emoticon: /o

      • Lombardi
        April 30, 2014 at 10:14 am #

        ¯(°_o)/¯

        • Jessica S.
          April 30, 2014 at 7:48 pm #

          Wow! Color me impressed. 🙂

  11. Amy Tuteur, MD
    April 29, 2014 at 9:06 pm #

    Back in August, the mother was apparently planning a homebirth:

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      April 29, 2014 at 9:12 pm #

      I see that others realized it before I did.

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 9:13 pm #

      That friend is probably the one that sent the sympathy card she burned. I can only imagine her horror at seeing her friend choose to allow her son to die.

      The craziness of this woman knows no bounds.

    • EllenL
      April 29, 2014 at 9:18 pm #

      How tragically prophetic that is.

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 9:19 pm #

      She says “good luck with your own uterus not exploding” like it’s a bad thing.

      Except for her…it was. She’s PROUD that her uterus “did its job” and “birthed a baby”.

      • MLE
        April 29, 2014 at 10:27 pm #

        That is a pretty bitchy comment to a friend who is just hoping she doesn’t die.

        • Stacy21629
          April 29, 2014 at 11:30 pm #

          Right. She’s so indignant that her friend would send her the sympathy card she did, but it’s A-OK for her to write this on Facebook, where her friend and the whole world can see it?
          I don’t know how many times I can say just how messed up this lady is.

          • MLE
            April 30, 2014 at 10:41 am #

            She gambled and list big, she says, but also talks about how she isn’t going to make any changes in the way she evaluates risk. You can’t say it enough, I think.

          • MLE
            April 30, 2014 at 10:41 am #

            *lost big

    • Trixie
      April 29, 2014 at 9:48 pm #

      Just stomach turning. I keep gripping my gut.
      She’s an RN, I bet her friend had medical training of some kind too, and tried to talk sense into her.

      • Jessica S.
        April 29, 2014 at 9:57 pm #

        God forbid a friend try to help, you know?

    • Lombardi
      April 30, 2014 at 10:39 am #

      Not a doctor but wasn’t one of her “unnecearrans” for placenta previa? How the fuck is that not necessary? How the hell us she an RN? Please tell me she can’t practice in my state and her state has some kind of overly simple professional standard for RNs!

      • Empliau
        April 30, 2014 at 12:46 pm #

        Sadly, she blames the previa (third child) on the caesarian for the second child.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc
      May 1, 2014 at 3:58 pm #

      Funny that she mentions good luck with her friends uterus not exploding. That surgical birth would have prevented her uterus from exploding

    • Renee Martin
      May 1, 2014 at 11:55 pm #

      Wonder what that friend thinks now? I bet she quit talking to her before, as many friends have to do in these situations.

      • anion
        June 30, 2014 at 6:25 pm #

        I know this is old, but a mention of it in comments on today’s post led me to look this woman up, and there’s an answer to your question on her blog. Apparently this friend sent a sympathy card that the mother perceived as having an “I told you so” tone. She doesn’t quote the card, so it’s impossible to say how much of that tone was real and how much was a reaction to any mention of the friend’s fears of this very thing happening. The mother basically says in her post that the friendship is over (there’s also some “Well, if it had gone differently I’d be the one saying ‘I told you so,’ and it’s not like my choices led directly to my baby’s death,” stuff from the mother. The delusion is pretty incredible there).

        I imagine the friend didn’t intend her sympathy note to come off as “Nyah nyah nyah!” but, as much as I side with the friend here–and feel bad for her, too, because we’ve had a commenter here who was in the friend’s situation, begging a pregnant friend not to attempt a risky delivery and dealing with the guilt of “Did I do enough? What could I have done/said differently to stop this from happening?” in the wake of her friend’s death–it is kind of lousy to say anything resembling “I told you so,” in a sympathy note to someone who is supposed to be your friend. (Again, assuming the friend did do so; people dealing with loss–people in general–don’t always take comments as they’re intended.)

        However much I or any of us look at this and see how this woman’s irresponsibility and foolish, reckless choices led to the loss of her baby, and however much she put her own “experience” above the safety of her son, and however much her actions have damaged her other children, and however much she was obviously very aware of the risks but certain she knew better than everyone else…she didn’t go into it expecting her baby to die, and she is grieving, and she does deserve some sympathy and support.

  12. Bombshellrisa
    April 29, 2014 at 8:45 pm #

    Did anyone comment yet on the fact that this woman is an RN?

    • April 29, 2014 at 8:49 pm #

      Yeah, it’s come up. This is just a monster of a thread to find anything in.

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 8:58 pm #

      Not directly, but yes. I mentioned it in some responses to Hush saying that she didn’t “believe” the risks she was told.

      Like hell. She’s a freaking nurse. She should know better. The only reason she didn’t is because she didn’t WANT to.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc
      May 1, 2014 at 3:59 pm #

      Yeah, there is a whole convo about it, about 100 comments down

  13. Megj86
    April 29, 2014 at 8:34 pm #

    Can anyone please provide a link to the original VBAC support page where she shared this story? Also, does anyone know if TFB has anything to say about this?

    • Trixie
      April 29, 2014 at 9:50 pm #

      It’s a private Facebook group run by Jen Kamel. I’m not a member and didn’t see this thread firsthand.

    • The Mole
      April 29, 2014 at 10:12 pm #

      It’s called VBAC Facts Community. It’s a closed group. The thread is still up, Griffins mom is unaware about this post.

  14. EllenL
    April 29, 2014 at 7:20 pm #

    As a follow-up to Stacy and Trixie, I also noticed references to a planned homebirth, when I read the entry March 31, An Open Letter to My Son.

    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014/03/an-open-letter-to-my-son.html

    From that entry:

    “We started preparing for you to come and put your sisters in their beds. They were so excited, knowing they would get to wake to meet you in the night. And we were so giddy to have you home, healthy and happy and as a whole family.”
    Then:

    “I was going to have a great story to tell you about the night you were born. Your dad was Superman. Your mom was Wonderwoman. And with your sisters chiming in the background about how they saw your first breath, heard your first cry…”

    • Mominoma
      April 29, 2014 at 10:35 pm #

      The picture of him on her chest hurts my heart. Poor little Griffin…he was so beautiful and perfect and he should still be with his family.

      • prolifefeminist
        April 30, 2014 at 12:05 am #

        Ohhhh… :.( I shouldn’t have looked. Poor, sweet, beautiful baby Griffin…he should have his whole life ahead of him right now. I can’t stand the senselessness of it all. I hate the cult of NCB so much.

  15. Stacy21629
    April 29, 2014 at 6:41 pm #

    Update, this woman absolutely was planning for a *H*BA2C.

    “I put old sheets on the bed for the afterbirth”

    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014_04_01_archive.html?m=0

    Her obstetric history also includes *3* early miscarriages. “Women’s bodies are made for birth” my butt.

    That poor, poor baby in that last picture.

    • Bombshellrisa
      April 29, 2014 at 8:53 pm #

      The picture of her son on her chest hit hard. There is a picture of my son on my chest like that, taken 10 days before.

      • Stacy21629
        April 29, 2014 at 8:58 pm #

        I have a pic of my son and I like that too, just hours after his home birth. Pink and beautiful and alive. How lucky we were. How crazy this woman is.

        • Bombshellrisa
          April 29, 2014 at 10:04 pm #

          Lucky indeed! My son was born at 35 weeks and I couldn’t think of anything else but him and hoping he was ok. He was. He is currently staring and cooing at his fist and I feel so blessed.

      • ihateslugs
        April 29, 2014 at 10:36 pm #

        I know…burst into tears (again!) with that photo. My son was born 2/15, and I also have the exact same picture. This whole thing is just SO heartbreaking. I feel the same way I did with little Gavin Michael–horrified, frustrated, angry, and a whole lot of sorrow. You know, I have even cried for this mother. While in this case, I unequivocally feel her choices led to his death, I’m terribly sad that she was led down a path, (undoubtedly with a whole lot of support and encouragement from NCB friends and groups), where she actually BELIEVED no harm would come from her planned homebirth. And it is totally clear she was planning to have him at home, no “late transfer.”

        • prolifefeminist
          April 30, 2014 at 12:08 am #

          I kind of feel that too. Even though his mom was reckless, I doubt she would’ve been that reckless if she hadn’t been cheered on and brainwashed into thinking that anything was more important that a healthy mom and baby.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 12:30 am #

            It takes a special amount of personal delusion though to sit face to face with multiple OBs and MFMs with her obstetric history and basically tell them to take their recommendations and shove it.

            I don’t doubt that she was fed a lot of hogwash…but you have to be pretty deluded in your own right to believe it to THIS extreme extent.

          • ihateslugs
            April 30, 2014 at 1:38 am #

            Did you see her comment, though, that (in my interpretation) made me think that she felt she had “evidence” on her side? I think it was in the post about burning the last condolence card, where she mentions something about her friend not understanding her “evidence based practice” for her birth plans. That really made me think that she was definitely reading or being encouraged to believe a lot of this garbage “data” by homebirthers about the safety of homebirth even in variations of normal, which I’m now certain she believed herself to be. This just confirms to me how much NCB is really a cult–brainwashing that goes so far as to lead to death. That doesn’t absolve her of her personal responsibility in her son’s death, but it may help to explain some of her rejection of the sound medical advice she received. After all, doctors are part of the establishment, and every good cult knows the first thing you have to do is make your followers distrustful of the mainstream practice.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 1:50 am #

            Yes, I read that part in the condolence post too. I just don’t see most of even the most woo-soaked people out there being THIS extreme. Half of her prior pregnancies (3/6) ended in miscarriage. The other half in preterm delivery, 2 as c-sections. She’s NEVER managed a term delivery, period – vaginal or otherwise. She’s a nurse. To not understand that NOTHING about her obstetric history is a “variation of normal” to me has to have a healthy dose of personal delusion. Most folks that have seen BoBB too many times would still be able to recognize the trainwreck that this woman is. Why she couldn’t recognize it herself? It’s pathological in my estimation.

          • ihateslugs
            April 30, 2014 at 8:31 pm #

            Totally agree that her delusion is pathologic. It’s like she was able to completely block out her entire obstetrical history and view this pregnancy as “normal” because they had made it to 38 weeks and all seemed to be fine. She refers to a “dream team” of physicians and specialists; I have no doubt that many, many hours of counseling about her choices ensued. (Which, OT, don’t you think is an odd way to refer to individuals whose professional advice you completely ignored?) She is absolutely beyond the fringe in terms of her beliefs…which means she likely does have mental health issues. Very, very heartbreaking.

          • rh1985
            May 1, 2014 at 7:46 pm #

            I don’t understand how she is a RN.

        • rh1985
          May 1, 2014 at 7:49 pm #

          I also have a Feb 2014 baby – actually my daughter was born the same day as Gavin Michael so I will never forget that poor baby 🙁 she was an emergency CS birth and because of that we are both healthy and alive….

      • ihateslugs
        April 29, 2014 at 10:38 pm #

        Bombshell, you are in Seattle, right? Hmm…maybe a Dr. Amy fan playgroup when our sons are older? 🙂

        • Bombshellrisa
          April 29, 2014 at 10:46 pm #

          I am and I think that is a good idea! I got an invitation to a play date and I have to turn it down, as a couple of the kids are unvaccinated and I don’t want to risk my baby getting something.

          • ihateslugs
            April 29, 2014 at 10:53 pm #

            That actually happens to be one of my issues too! Was invited to a Bainbridge group, (live in Poulsbo), and graciously declined for the same reason. We ferry over to Seattle all the time, though, so we should sometime!

  16. Trixie
    April 29, 2014 at 6:22 pm #

    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014/04/waiting-for-blood.html
    This was a planned homebirth.

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 6:44 pm #

      Guess I should have hit “refresh”, haha. I’m at least the 3rd person to post that. 😛

  17. Jenna
    April 29, 2014 at 4:13 pm #

    I’m curious to know what made her a bad candidate for a VBAC. What in her medical history increased her chances of rupture?
    I’ve had 2 VB and the last one was a c-section for a complete previa. Does the fact that I had placenta previa make me a bad candidate for VBAC if I were to have another child?

    • Stacy21629
      April 29, 2014 at 5:18 pm #

      Couple things.
      First, she had an unproven pelvis for a term fetus. Her only prior vaginal delivery was a 31 week premie that likely only weighed about 1500g. The average term baby is 2500g.
      Second, she had 2 prior C-sections for preterm babies so the incisions were not made into a full term uterus – thus positioning, stretch, etc is not the same as a full term C-section.

      If, for example, her first delivery was a normal vaginal delivery of a healthy term baby, but her second and third were C-sections for non-repeatable events (say, breech and a malpositioned cord resulting in bradycardia) she would have been a much better candidate for VBA2C. She would have had one prior term vaginal delivery – proving she was able and C-sections for completely different reasons. Certainly there would still be OBs that would not be comfortable with a TOL (and I can’t blame them, after all it’s THEIR name on the lawsuit) but some would be.

      Under no rational circumstances was this woman a good candidate for vaginal delivery. If she had had testing/treatment for lung maturity at 36-37 weeks and a RCS following she would have a healthy happy baby right now.

    • Trixie
      April 29, 2014 at 6:23 pm #

      You should talk with your doctor, but a c/s for previa after 2 VBs probably makes you a pretty good candidate. They’ll do ultrasounds to make sure there isn’t any previa this time.

    • Jessica S.
      April 29, 2014 at 10:37 pm #

      One of the regular commenters, Dr. Kitty (a doctor, IRL, too) summed it up, based on the available info. This thread is so huge, but if you can find her name you’ll probably find the comment I’m referring to. It helped me wrap my mind around the seriousness of her situation.

  18. MaineJen
    April 29, 2014 at 3:55 pm #

    “[The rupture] was catastrophic. But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding.”

    Wow. Talk about being so far gone into the woo that even after a disaster like this, you’re still crowing about how your body ‘knew what to do.’ This passage just gives me the shivers. And…How how *how* does a person even contemplate writing something entitled “I martyred my son”? How?

    • Anj Fabian
      April 30, 2014 at 5:59 am #

      Tempted to post a comment to her blog with a link to Jeevan’s latest post about a UR. The one with the baby as they found when they opened the abdomen.

      That is what UR looks like. That is what she is prattling on about.

      • Karen in SC
        April 30, 2014 at 7:52 am #

        Exactly. I think that’s a good idea. Some will see it and maybe it will make a difference.

  19. Guest
    April 29, 2014 at 12:06 pm #

    I’m confused. The way it is phrased makes it appear that her team of specialists told her she was to labor at home and come ready to deliver. Can someone clarify? Did she switch providers? Was it the three preterm births that excluded her from being a VBAC candidate?

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      April 29, 2014 at 12:52 pm #

      It wasn’t her team of specialists who said that, it was her internet cheering section and her doula and midwife

      • Guest
        April 29, 2014 at 1:26 pm #

        That makes sense. That’s so sad. The state of message boards are terrifying. Several advise women to not show up for their section.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          April 29, 2014 at 1:28 pm #

          I agree that she was vague on the source of that advice, but it happens ALL THE TIME on message boards. It’s basically page one of the “avoid a c-section” textbook. It’s pretty friggin disgraceful, if you ask me.

          • Guest
            April 29, 2014 at 3:56 pm #

            Can anyone tell me why this woman was such a poor vbac candidate? I know c sections for pre term birth lower rates of vbac success but I’d like to know what raised her risk of rupture. I am not bring argumentative because obstetrics my area of expertise. I am a vbac mom and take the risks very seriously.

          • Guest
            April 29, 2014 at 4:04 pm #

            *Obstetrics is not my area of expertise.* *being argumentative* typing on a phone is hard apparently.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 4:10 pm #

            Because the uterus hasn’t stretched enough for a low incision, pre-term c-sections often require a “classic” incision, which leaves more damage to the uterus.

          • araikwao
            April 29, 2014 at 6:56 pm #

            It’s likely at that gestation, though, that a lower segment would have been present.

          • Julie
            April 29, 2014 at 4:36 pm #

            Just look at this wonderful advice, straight from the BBC “support” board that encourages outright lying to HCPs about various things to avoid the dreaded c. This is in response to a mom whose pediatrician friend warned her of the risks of UR and was asking about laboring at home/in a birth center vs. in the hospital:

            “The time to get to the OR will vary, but in some cases, an emergent case coming from home will get in even faster than an emergent case in the L&D already.”

            That’s right, labor at home as long as possible, because if you have to go to the hospital, you’ll get to bump another patient with a medical emergency, putting now two babies at greater risk because of your stupidity! It’s mind boggling. Absolutely no concern for anyone or anything other than their “experience.”

        • Anj Fabian
          April 29, 2014 at 1:30 pm #

          Should we make OBs take MASH training so they are prepared to deal with these train wrecks on a regular basis?

          Not really joking. OBs are trained to do routine surgeries under controlled conditions. Once you do enough “This Old House” scenarios when you open a patient up and find a disaster, you probably wonder if that scenario should be presented at a conference for CEUs.

  20. CrownedMedwife
    April 29, 2014 at 11:32 am #

    I just can’t take it. I just can’t take it. I usually can reserve empathy for loss mothers, but this loss is making it very challenging to do so. I usually can tout the difference and benefits in CNM’s over CPM’s, but all I have is embarrassment for the profession and utter and absolute disgust for her part in this tragedy.

    Congratulations to Griffin’s mother for offering her son up as the sacrificial lamb of VBAC and HBAC risks. Remember the OB, MFM and hospital
    CNM who counseled you against proceeding with a VBAC…THIS, THIS IS WHAT THEY MEANT! They weren’t using scare tactics or fear mongering. ‘Dead baby card’…yeah, this is exactly why OB’s and CNM’s use it. Because. They. Don’t. Want. Babies.To. Die. Preventable. Deaths.

    As for the HB CNM: WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING??? What
    thoughts crossed your mind in that this woman was a suitable candidate for a VBAC? When recommendations call for CEFM, IV access and surgical crew immediately available, how the hell did you rationalize a HBAC? If three providers concurred the risks outweighed the benefit of a TOLAC in a hospital setting, what the hell did you think you had to offer in her goddamn living room? Get your head out of your ass and your mind out of the NCB echo chamber, it’s caused enough damage already.

    Scanned my birth log from the month of Griffin’s death, low
    and behold a VBA2C. The difference being in a hospital, CEFM, IV access,
    OB/ANESTHESIA/NEO on the unit with an appropriately screened VBAC candidate. A perfectly healthy baby was born and a year from then her parents will be planning a first birthday party. It’s absolutely
    disgusting this mother doesn’t have a damn thing to celebrate except her uterus’ ability to rupture a healthy term baby into her abdomen. C’mon HB CNM…is it that freaking hard to leave the high risk mothers to receive care in the appropriate setting with the appropriate providers?

    My apologies for the rant, but this entire scenario is just absolutely disgusting and I’ll borrow my mother’s words in saying “I’m so angry I could spit”.

    • Jessica S.
      April 29, 2014 at 10:42 pm #

      I appreciate your rant. It shows you care. 🙂

  21. April 29, 2014 at 11:13 am #

    Somewhat OT but have we ever had such a huge number of comments within such a short time period [less than 48 hours]?

    • Young CC Prof
      April 29, 2014 at 11:16 am #

      Only during the Midwifery Today/ Gavin Michael incident.

  22. Dr Kitty
    April 29, 2014 at 11:12 am #

    Hush, I am sorry your friend died, truly.
    You are assuming we would say mean things about her and blame her, because we absolutely blame the woman in the post above.

    It sounds like your friend was lied to by her midwife, it sounds like she found those lies easier to believe than your warnings.
    That must be a hard thing for you to live with.

    Respectfully, I think you may be projecting your situation onto our responses to this one.

    This lady knew the risks inherent in her choice, she doesn’t regret allowing her son to die in order to attempt a VBAC, because the goal of VB was more important than his life.

    I, personally, do not think that such a choice should be illegal, but I do think it was wrong. I don’t think she deserves to be abused for it, but I do think that it is reasonable to criticise it.

  23. Lombardi
    April 29, 2014 at 10:23 am #

    This is a cruel statement I am about to make but I feel logical. One has to wonder about the future welfare of the daughters. If she is willing to ignore all of the evidence against a vaginal birth in her case. What other bad choices is she capeable of due to this deep of a cognitive dissonance in regards to health issues? Many parents question their choices and don’t assume they are always right. I don’t see that ablity here. Many parents pay experts to assist them in decision making. I listen to my Ped because she is an expert in child health while I am not. This women refused to listen to or fought the experts’ (OBs) opinions in three births. Now she finally went all the way with the 3rd and didn’t let herself get “bullied” into a CS. All she has to show for this is a a horrific out come and she still thinks she is right! I wonder what will happen if a doctor wants to treat her remaining children using a method she see as “unnatural”.

  24. T.
    April 29, 2014 at 7:34 am #

    Hush is the most entarteining commenters (i don’t think she is a troll) we have had in a while, you must admit.

    I find the mindset she has quite telling:
    About Doctors:
    1. Some doctors are bad
    2. Since 1., women (?) don’t trust all doctors
    3. Since 2, women won’t follow what doctors say
    4. Since 3 babies -and women- will die, but it will be the doctors fault because 1.
    This is quite interesting indeed. Of course it is wrong. You should have enough brain to get that even if 1 is true, 2 doesn’t follow. I know some neurologists are bad, still going to trust neurologists on my migraine, on my father’s heart problems and on a slew of other medical issues. It is almost a nirvana fallancy: “Medicine is not perfect! So women don’t trust docs! Make medicine perfect or it is medicine’s fault people don’t use it!” Like on vaccine, if you think of it. “Vaccines have 1 chances in 10 000 000 to give you seizures, so it is the vaccine’s industry fault I am not vaccinating. Make vaccines PERFECT or it will be their fault”.
    Interesting indeed.
    On Meaness:
    1. This woman has lost a baby
    2. She is evidently suffering for it
    3. So she must not absolutely been told that she had made mistakes, because pain in some way take responsability away.
    This is the degeneration of “not blame the victim” mentality. And in many case it is right. But not blaming the victim doesn’t mean not blaming somebody who is suffering. If I drive drunk with my sis as a passager, we hit a tree and my sis dies, I may suffer beyond words and it is STILL MY FAULT. I can co-blame the bartender, the car, the tree, the street manteinance, but in the end, it is MY FAULT.
    Same here.

    • NoLongerCrunching
      April 29, 2014 at 8:33 am #

      Where’s the logic? Most OBs are women now. The only difference between them and MWs is that they have willingly put forth years of effort to learn how to safely manage any birth complication. Oh and that they dont hesitate to transfer care to a higher level specialist the instant mom or baby’s risk level goes up. Homebirth MWs in contrast dont transfer until after an emergency happens, have a financial incentive to treat complicated births as variations of normal, and have deliberately avoided advanced training.

      • T.
        April 29, 2014 at 9:02 am #

        There is no logic. It is not about logic, it is about a misguided attempt to protect a person who is perceived to be in pain from more pain. And I get it… on a level.
        On another level even if it is a noble attempt it is wrong.
        Reminds me of those people who thinks skeptics that battle against cancer-quacks as evil, because they are “taking away” hope from families that desperately wants that miracle cure to work for their child’s unoperable, intreatable brain cancer. But fact is, there is no hope there. Not of a cure. And pretending otherwise is false. Yes, it is painful. But doing nothing means allowing people to grow fat and rich on the money desperately scrouged from families. And it can’t be allowed.

        • Guest
          April 29, 2014 at 9:28 am #

          This is classic of the guy that killed his parents asking the court for mercy because he is an orphan. If you killed your sister in a DUI that’s really not my business. You’ll deal with the law and your conscience and yeah, I probably would say, “She is suffering enough, leave her alone.” But if you then write a long piece in the paper about how you are glad you did it, those last hours of fun with your sister were magic and worth her death — and no one is allowed to contradict you because you are in too much pain over her loss … you’re fair game. People HAVE to respond.

          • T.
            April 29, 2014 at 10:03 am #

            Exactly that. Very good comparison. Still, it is incredibly sad that people would STILL defend the woman.

    • PrimaryCareDoc
      April 29, 2014 at 9:39 am #

      That’s exactly what Jenny McCarthy says. If polio makes a comeback, it’s pharma’s fault for not making a perfect vaccine product. Not her fault!

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        April 29, 2014 at 10:11 am #

        Um…what’s wrong with the polio vaccine, even in Jenny McCarthy’s tiny little mind? It doesn’t even contain the infamous mercury.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          April 29, 2014 at 10:13 am #

          From Steven Colbert’s twitter last night: “Who needs vaccines? Many American heroes were never vaccinated. Off the top of my head: FDR. Wait… bad example.”

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 11:02 am #

            At least one of Ben Franklin’s children.

          • Hannah
            May 1, 2014 at 4:53 pm #

            Oh lord, Stephen Colbert is ripping those anti-vaxxers APART! And it is glorious.

        • PrimaryCareDoc
          April 29, 2014 at 10:17 am #

          Toxins!!!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          April 29, 2014 at 10:17 am #

          Yeah, but neither did the MMR vaccine (ever), but that never stops an anti-vaxxer

          • Trixie
            April 30, 2014 at 5:42 am #

            Propelyne Glycol! You know, like in those e-cigarettes she sells…..

        • GracieW
          April 29, 2014 at 1:33 pm #

          Is this post about vaccines? No. stay on topic, straw man.

          • anion
            April 29, 2014 at 1:51 pm #

            It’s called a conversation, Gracie. Sometimes it moves organically in different directions.

    • Gene
      April 29, 2014 at 11:07 am #

      I am a woman AND a doctor. That MUST be why I don’t trust my decisions. Blue scrubs today, or green??? Cereal, or toast??? I never had these problems before med school.

      /sarcasm off

  25. guest
    April 29, 2014 at 3:30 am #

    Please can someone explain the difference between these actions (legal) and a late term abortion (illegal)?

    • April 29, 2014 at 3:36 am #

      She wasn’t trying to kill the fetus. She just accidentally and predictably did kill it.

      Basically, since the intent wasn’t death, it wasn’t an illegal late-term abortion. Not that late-term abortions should be illegal, for the same reason that HBA2Cs with super crazy contraindications shouldn’t be illegal.

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 8:10 am #

        The question was rhetorical and was actually posed to me by a coroner. It is a very very very fine line.
        Late term abortions are illegal in most counties.
        Autonomy is not completely unrestricted.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          April 29, 2014 at 9:27 am #

          Abortion is an odd exception to personal autonomy. You’re allowed to refuse to give your blood or bodily tissue to someone who needs it. You’re allowed to giggle at a dying relative while saying, “Nah, nah, I’m not giving YOU my kidney” if you so choose. (Well, you are until they get a restraining order.) You are allowed to refuse life saving surgery or procedures on your own behalf and (usually) on your children’s behalf. I really can’t think of any other situation where a risk of harm is forced on an unwilling person for the benefit of another in the medical context except for abortion restrictions. Ironically, if this woman had said she was refusing a c-section because she didn’t want the baby and wanted it to die, she probably would have had a court ordered c-section–and someone else would have had a healthy baby to raise. It is only because she wanted the baby that she was allowed to let it die. So if your point is that the law is screwed up and inconsistent, I agree with you.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:31 am #

            Yes, thank you.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 10:30 am #

            It has to be, though! How can it not, if you really think about it?

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 4:55 pm #

            I thought you had it all sorted out Siri? It’s apparently clear-cut.

          • prolifefeminist
            April 29, 2014 at 11:20 pm #

            “You’re allowed to refuse to give your blood or bodily tissue to someone who needs it.”

            As I see it, the fundamental difference between those situations that Nym described and pregnancy/abortion is that barring rape/incest, the parents’ actions caused the fetus to exist, unlike a relative who needs a kidney or bone marrow transplant. There is a responsibility there with pregnancy that is unique; the relationship between mother and fetus is unlike any other. I would argue (not that I’m arguing 😉 that in a progressive, civilized society, that the more vulnerable a being is, the greater our responsibility is to care for that being, particularly when we are responsible for its existence. I do not mean to limit this fetuses either – human beings of all ages and conditions of life are vulnerable, dependent, and in need of care (physical/social/emotional/financial/spiritual/you name it). The humane/human response is to care for one another.

            I don’t want to veer way off topic here though. I really see these stunt births as so selfish. They may be legal, but they are unethical. Most troubling to me is that there is this enormous industry that has grown up around unsafe birth practices, with all the markings of a cult. I just don’t know how to combat that…one brick at a time I guess? Progress just seems so painfully slow…even more so when there are babies (and mothers) dying needlessly.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 30, 2014 at 9:24 am #

            But if you enroll in the marrow donor registry, i.e. make a specific statement that you ARE willing to donate, and then back out for any reason you may get disapproval but you will NOT get forced to donate because you agreed and by your action caused the potential recipient to believe that s/he had a donor. On the contrary, there is specific private counseling to make sure that the donor is not being coerced in any way. And registering the donor registry is a much more definite act of will than having sex. No one gets drunk and accidentally gives a tissue sample to the marrow registry.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 30, 2014 at 11:17 am #

            Actually, enrolling means you MIGHT be willing to donate. I’m fairly sure the registry doesn’t announce “Hey, we found someone!” until they actually manage to contact you and confirm that you are still willing and able. I’m sure quite a few names on the registry belong to people who are now medically ineligible, or have out of date contact info and can’t be found, or, heck, some are no doubt dead!

            However, if you said, “Yes, I’ll donate next month to this person currently in need,” and then changed your mind, you’re an asshole.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 30, 2014 at 11:32 am #

            An asshole, yes, but are you an asshole who should be sent to prison for refusing or be forced to donate? I don’t think so.

            I’m not sure when the patient gets contacted about possible matched unrelated donors. It’s tricky because just knowing the basic HLA type doesn’t say for sure that the person is even a good match or medically qualified. But it’s surely at least as much of a commitment to donate as having sex (especially with birth control) is a commitment to having a baby.

          • Kerlyssa
            May 2, 2014 at 1:29 am #

            Someone who has just shot you in the kidney cannot be compelled to donate their own blood, much less their own kidney. Intent and fault has nothing to do with it.

          • Guesteleh
            April 30, 2014 at 9:59 pm #

            I matched with someone on the registry (unfortunately he died before I could donate) and I was told about a quarter of the people who match back out of the donation. I was appalled but there you are. You can’t force someone to give up their bodily autonomy even if it results the death of another person.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 30, 2014 at 10:09 am #

            Further thought: I think this is an area where there are limitations to what can be done legally because of conflicting needs and rights. A person who would refuse to donate marrow when they’d previously agreed to and another person will die without it or one who would abort a healthy fetus for no medical reason at 29 weeks or one who would risk their baby’s life and brain with a stunt birth is (probably*) committing an immoral act. But should they be illegal? I am uncomfortable with any laws that say that a person must endanger their lives and especially allow their bodily integrity to be violated against their will no matter how good the intent. So I’m of the “leave it legal but make it obsolete/so pointless that no one does it” school of thought.

            *I could probably come up with scenarios where any of the above is the best moral act of a bad lot of choices, but in general the choices made are bad ones.

        • Siri
          April 29, 2014 at 10:29 am #

          What, a coroner asked you that in court? Or at a dinner party? Why did they ask you, particularly, are you an expert? Were they looking to you to provide the answer in an actual case? And no, it’s not a very very very fine line; it’s pretty clear-cut, actually. Tell that coroner to get in touch with me; I’ll give it to them straight.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 4:53 pm #

            It’s called a philosophical debate Siri.
            Are you saying it is OK to kill your normal term baby to achieve a normal birth at all costs?
            The conversation with the coroner was in my expert capacity in the field.

        • April 29, 2014 at 7:56 pm #

          Oh. I didn’t realize it was rhetorical. Yeah, it is a very very very fine line.

          Autonomy isn’t completely unrestricted, but I do happen to think it should become less restricted in this area :/. Which might put me at odds with some people here, but the alternative to maternal autonomy is quite horrific to contemplate.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 8:10 pm #

            Yeah. Women who engage in stunt birth disgust me, but I firmly believe that a pregnant woman’s right to bodily autonomy lasts right up until the baby actually comes out, so I’d never want to make it illegal. (And, because it IS a fine line, if that baby pops out blue and you don’t call an ambulance, that’s medical neglect of your child.)

          • April 29, 2014 at 8:45 pm #

            Totally agreed. Once it’s out, it’s a person that you have responsibility for.

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 3:12 am #

            You are referring to the common law ‘born alive rule.’ i.e. the fetus is only a legal person if expelled fully and alive from the mother.
            It is an outdated rule from 1601 when the default position was that the baby was born dead unless proven otherwise.
            It is still applicable in most common law countries but has been overturned by both case law and legislation in some US states.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 8:57 pm #

            I think the autonomy line is hindered though by the accompanying idea that it’s unacceptable to remind a mother that her choices might kill her baby. Folks like Hush advocate for maternal autonomy…which somehow includes not discussing risks. If a mother is making a truly dangerous decision (not just a healthy mom declining a heplock, though ill-advised) I think they have a responsibility to harass the crap out of her. They can “respect” her autonomy and not cart her off to the OR against her will but they should not be expected to just stand by and happily watch her baby die either.

            And you’re right, the moment that baby’s out, all bets are off.

          • April 30, 2014 at 1:55 am #

            I agree. Information can only increase autonomy, and with autonomy comes responsibility. If you make bad choices, you have to own the consequences of your choices. Everything has a price, and that is the price of autonomy. It’s so worth it, of course, but it is a cost.

            And it is absolutely respecting one’s autonomy to come in every five minutes and be like, “Hey, you’re still doing badly, this is really dangerous, we’d really like to help you now”.

            But I also think that late-term abortions should not be banned. They’re extraordinarily rare at very late term, but the ones that occur are medically necessary, and I have serious issues with forcing someone to effectively be a living life support system against her will no matter the health or viability of her fetus.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 2:08 am #

            “But I also think that late-term abortions should not be banned. ”
            I would agree. As you said they are medically necessary, usually due to catastrophic defects. I just want folks like Hush to own up to all the ramifications. When she says “hell yes” she 100% supports a woman’s autonomy to choose vaginal birth over her baby’s life, no questioning allowed, she is simultaneously supporting a woman at 39 weeks terminating her healthy fetus, just because, no questioning allowed (assuming she could find a provider willing to do that).

            That’s not something I could agree to, ever. At that point she doesn’t have to be forced to be a living life support system – induce, give the baby away and go on with life. It’s not a micro-premie at that point, it’s a 100% healthy baby, just separated by 6-8cm from the outside. I guess that’s still “forcing” a medical procedure (induction) if she doesn’t want it…but whatever, it’s all hypothetical anyway. I seriously doubt there’s anyone out there (MD) aborting healthy 39 week babies just because the mother doesn’t want it after all. I guess it comes down to that – practitioner policing, not lawmaking.

            anyway…babbling… 🙂

          • April 30, 2014 at 3:16 am #

            Well, I’d look at the abortion of a healthy 39 week fetus like I look at this woman’s planned HBA2C. It’s insane, immoral, and shouldn’t happen in any fair or just world. Any woman who made such a choice should be roundly condemned. But it shouldn’t be illegal.

            But yeah, that just doesn’t happen, so I don’t really worry about it.

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 3:30 am #

            Sadly it does happen and there is a special area of law to cover it i.e. ‘child destruction legislation’. It originated in the UK (1800’s I think) to cover the gap between the law on abortion and murder i.e. the time around labour.
            It covered the interesting act of delivering the fetal head, then killing the baby, followed by passing the rest of the body.
            Because the baby was not born alive, no crime was committed against a ‘person’
            There is unfortunately some recent case law from the US where similar acts were committed.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 3:52 am #

            As we pointed out, however, I would be willing to wager that very very few of these procedures are performed at a mother’s whim in the 39th week purely because she decided she didn’t want this baby after all. The few doctors doing 3rd tri abortions simply will not do them for no reason. These babies almost universally have defects that are incompatible with life but were either not detected until late or it was too difficult or expensive for the mother to obtain the abortion earlier.
            When “it does happen” it is exceedingly rare. For a healthy baby with no reason? Rarer to never.

          • April 30, 2014 at 1:06 pm #

            I think that would be much, much less common nowadays. Infanticide was also a lot more common back then, due to widespread poverty, lack of safe abortions, and lack of effective birth control.

            The Gosnell case, if that’s what you’re referring to, actually involved infanticide of wholly born (induced for the purpose of abortion, premature) infants.

          • guest
            May 1, 2014 at 6:53 am #

            I wasn’t referring to Gosnell (but will look it up). People v Chavez is the kind of case I was thinking of.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 3:48 am #

            I agree. I can no more support the one than I can the other. But legislating it is not the answer either.

          • guest
            May 3, 2014 at 2:19 am #

            I can understand why people are confronted by his question. It creates a sense of internal conflict.
            It is very difficult to reconcile a 100% belief in maternal autonomy with a 100% revulsion in the selfish destruction of the fetus for the ultimate vaginal experience.
            If the fetus has no rights, why can’t it just be a prop in performance art?
            If asked specifically why they are repulsed by the idea of someone killing their child for the experience, people then naturally flounder around for any explanation to avoid challenging maternal autonomy i.e. unethical, offensive, narcissistic, selfish, stupid.

          • May 3, 2014 at 4:44 am #

            Because it is killing a potential child that is wanted and could live and it is doing it for pretty silly reasons. That is where the revulsion comes, for me.

            Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should, necessarily. It is every woman’s (hell, every person’s) right to do incredibly stupid things, but that doesn’t make them less stupid or mean we can’t call people out for doing them. A fetus doesn’t exactly have no rights, it just has no rights that are more important than maternal autonomy.

            So a fetus can be a prop in performance art. Because of its near status as a person, though, and the presumable desire of the pregnant woman to be a mother, it’s not very wise and it is quite unethical to treat the almost-person as a mere prop. And once born, to withhold medical treatment for pictures (as in zombie baby picture a few posts ahead) is entirely unethical in that it puts the life of a person at risk.

          • Stacy21629
            May 3, 2014 at 6:06 am #

            Brava. Well said.

    • Captain Obvious
      April 29, 2014 at 8:11 am #

      Jesus, one wants a live baby and the other doesn’t. So if a women wants to raise her children but never uses car seats, lets her kids drink alcohol, and etc etc , your arguement is going to be its her choice on how she wants to raise her kids? That she has the same right to do those things because we allow late term abortion happen. Come on, compare apples and apples.

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 8:18 am #

        I didn’t make an argument, I posed a question.
        Knowing the expected outcome and proceeding anyway, is wilful action.

        • Captain Obvious
          April 29, 2014 at 8:21 am #

          She obviously “didn’t believe” that expected outcome would occur to her, because she trusted birth, she knew her body can do this because it was designed to birth babies. Thanks to all those NUCB crazies. The woman wanting a late term abortion “knows” what her outcome is and wants that.

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 8:27 am #

        “Jesus, one wants a live baby and the other doesn’t”.
        Is a live baby really the objective?

    • fiftyfifty1
      April 29, 2014 at 8:35 am #

      please spare us

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 8:38 am #

        yes?

        • fiftyfifty1
          April 29, 2014 at 8:44 am #

          yes.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 8:54 am #

            So, lets see.
            Both patients have a normal term pregnancies.
            One takes a medication she knows will kill her baby=later term abortion.
            The other makes a decision she knows will kill her baby=natural (still)birth.
            Yes?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 29, 2014 at 8:57 am #

            AT BEST it’s the difference between murder and manslaughter.

            And that is even given your comparison the benefit of the doubt.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:04 am #

            Except it’s neither because it’s a stillbirth.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 29, 2014 at 9:19 am #

            Yes, it’s neither. But he difference is the same as the difference between murder and manslaughter.

            When you figure out the difference between those, you will have the answer to your question.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:25 am #

            I assume you are talking about intent.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 29, 2014 at 9:42 am #

            Of course.

          • T.
            April 29, 2014 at 9:07 am #

            Can you go trolling elsewhere, please?

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:11 am #

            I’m not trolling.
            Which part of the scenario does not make sense to you?

          • T.
            April 29, 2014 at 9:24 am #

            I do not care about your scenarios. Go bleating about abortion, late or soon or whatever, in sites that are there for that reason.
            I swear, political nuts, anti-vaxer and abortion crazed people can make any topic about their favourite one.
            We have the anti-abortion, the political nut, and I am eagerly awaiting for the anti-vaxer to parachute here claiming that without getting vaccines the woman would have been able to birth all naturally.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:27 am #

            Just answer the question.
            Are you OK with people killing their babies for performance art?

          • Captain Obvious
            April 29, 2014 at 9:36 am #

            No woman having a late term abortion is broadcasting on line live like TFB or Rixa, so how are you calling it performance art? Late term abortion is private, as should delivery of a wanted live child.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 9:41 am #

            I am talking about wilfully killing your baby in the quest for a vaginal birth experience at all costs.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 5:01 pm #

            The scenario has nothing to do with politics or vaccination. It poses a very simple and very common question.
            Is it OK to deliberately kill your normal term baby to achieve a vaginal birth experience at all costs?
            Don’t get distracted, stay focussed.

          • Lena
            April 29, 2014 at 12:06 pm #

            You are a stupid person, but I’ll bite and pretend that abortions at term are actually at all common (I’ll bet money that the number of pregnancies that are deliberately terminated at term is much, much smaller than the number of babies dead or brain damages because of NCB beliefs).

            The difference is intent. It’s one thing to deliberate set out to terminate a pregnancy because you know longer want to be pregnant. It’s another to be a total fucking moron and take risks with a wanted pregnancy because you’re an arrogant asshole who thinks she’s educated because she has an internet connection.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 12:09 pm #

            Second-trimester abortions are rare and almost all for medical reasons, either pregnancy complications or serious problems with the fetus. Third-trimester abortions are actually illegal most places, as far as I know. (Of course, in the third trimester, early live delivery is an option if medical problems happen.)

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 2:58 am #

            You are the stupid one. I am equating deliberately killing your healthy term baby, for a vaginal birth experience, with late term abortion.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 3:13 am #

            And that is a monumentally, galactically, nay, INTERgalactically stupid comparison.

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 3:15 am #

            Please explain.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 3:18 am #

            Lena already put it very well a few comments ago. Have you ever had a late-term abortion? No? Then stop making such pointless comparisons.

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 3:19 am #

            That’s not an explanation.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 8:03 am #

            As Lena says, the difference is intent. One woman wants her baby, another doesn’t. Diametrically opposite points of view, except you are hell-bent on jumbling them up in a manner which smacks of misogyny.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 4:00 am #

            Actually, Siri I will agree with guest that it’s not a pointless comparison. If someone believes 100% in a woman’s complete autonomy and preeminence over the fetus she is carrying – what exactly IS the difference between deciding to abort your healthy 38 week baby for no reason other than you decided you don’t want a baby after all and what Griffin’s mother did? I realize the abortion patient actively DECIDED for her baby to end up dead and Griffin’s mom ended up with a dead baby unintentionally…

            I acknowledge that such a thing (late term elective abortion) is exceedingly rare if not non-existent, I’m just exploring the mindset. Which (I think) is what guest is doing. And which is what the Hush poster espoused last night. She said flat out (referring to Griffin’s mother) that “hell yes” she supported a mother’s autonomy to make the decisions she did regarding Griffin’s birth. I also wonder if she feels that way about an elective late term abortion?

            Feminerd and I were discussing this a bit below. Neither of us thinks choosing an HBA2C or late term elective abortion should be illegal, however the ethics of both are hideous. That’s why I wonder if someone that supports the former, also supports the latter. I don’t know how one consistently reconciles the two otherwise.

          • guest
            April 30, 2014 at 5:30 am #

            Thank you Stacy21629. That is exactly what I am doing.
            People who think this is one dimensional simplicity are fooling themselves.
            The situation brings together aspects of philosophy, law, ethics, semantics, autonomy, rights etc. and is delightfully challenging. Definitely not straightforward at all.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 8:06 am #

            You’re trying to blur lines on purpose, for your own reasons. To me it isn’t complicated at all, but then I am not anti – women.

          • guest
            May 1, 2014 at 12:25 am #

            You give me too much credit Siri,
            I am not blurring the lines.
            The lines are blurred.
            I am not anti-women at all, that is unnecessarily insulting.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 8:00 am #

            The ethics of both are hideous? To you maybe; you have no idea what goes on in the mind of someone having a late abortion. I am in favour of abortion on demand, full stop; it’s not for me to decide if someone’s reason is adequate or not. A late abortion is horrible thing to have to endure. Women do go to prison for illegally procuring their own abortions; google Sarah Catt. Comparing deliberate fetal destruction with risky birth practices is like comparing child murder with risky childcare practices, except that when a child is born, it has rights which a fetus does not. So risky practices can lead to prosecution for manslaughter in the absence of intent to harm or kill.

            It is enough to say, your choice of birth venue led to the death of your much-wanted child; dragging in comparisons with abortion is just misogynistic claptrap. As a pro-choice feminist I reject it outright.

          • Busbus
            May 1, 2014 at 1:06 am #

            As a matter of fact, late term abortions are almost always done out of dire need, usually in very tragic circumstances. If you are interested, I recommend this series of reader posts on the Dish, posted in the wake of the assassination of abortion doctor George Tiller, where a number of people have shared their personal stories: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/threads/its-so-personal/

            I will warn you, some (a lot) of the stories are very, very sad.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            April 30, 2014 at 9:18 am #

            YOU are the one who is making things up, guest. Please show us 5 American examples of LEGAL terminations after 36 weeks and stop jabbering nonsense until you do.

          • guest
            May 1, 2014 at 12:22 am #

            Ah, Amy, I really expected more from you.
            That is not the point at all.
            The point is why is it legal for you to kill your healthy term baby to achieve a vaginal birth at all costs? (essentially the equivalent of a late term abortion).
            As compared to the alternative hypothetical situation of it being illegal for you to abort (medically or otherwise) your healthy term baby.
            In both cases you are proceeding with a deliberate choice, knowing that it will kill the baby.
            I am not opposed to legal abortion at all (in fact I have performed same) that is not the point.
            As I mentioned before, this was originally a question raised with me by a coroner.
            It has definitely been an interesting discussion – some people got what I was alluding to (thanks Stacy), others not so much.
            So, if you want examples of 5 US examples of legal terminations after 36 weeks, look at the list of unnecessary homebirth deaths you refer to all the time, starting with poor Griffin.

          • Young CC Prof
            May 1, 2014 at 12:39 am #

            The argument against your point would be that she didn’t DELIBERATELY kill the child, she just took a risk. And making risk-taking in pregnancy illegal is a slippery slope I want no part of, that leads straight up to prosecuting women who have miscarriages or stillbirths after doing anything which could be harmful, or which a prosecutor believes could be harmful.

            Home birth should not be illegal. Midwives accepting money to assist with home birth should be illegal.

          • Busbus
            May 1, 2014 at 1:21 am #

            I completely agree about the slippery slope.

            Regarding the midwives, I would argue for a system like in Canada (as far as I understand it), with well-educated midwives, integration into the hospital system, professional accountability and malpractice insurance. That would be worlds better than the way it is here now. I also believe it’s a proposal that is much more likely to actually get majority support.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 1, 2014 at 2:09 am #

            Why? Because medical autonomy is a negative right. You have the right to refuse the treatment offered, but you don’t have the right to demand a specific treatment. Therefore, you have the right to refuse a C-section, but you don’t have the right to demand a 36 week termination.

          • guest
            May 1, 2014 at 2:21 am #

            Correct, you don’t have the right to demand a 36 week termination but you do have the right to kill the 36 week baby during performance art.
            Then it is called a natural stillbirth instead of a late term abortion.
            Hypothetically?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 1, 2014 at 2:30 am #

            No, not even hypothetically. Killing requires intent. Homebirth advocates have no intent to kill the baby and that makes all the difference.

          • guest
            May 1, 2014 at 2:50 am #

            You mean murder (or child destruction) requires intent.
            Homebirth advocates have no concern about killing the baby.
            But I agree, it all comes down to intent (and defining of the feto-maternal configuration).

          • April 30, 2014 at 11:20 am #

            edited to correct where comment was intended. Stupid disqus.

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 9:20 am #

        From what? Hard questions? We don’t usually shy away from those.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      April 29, 2014 at 9:22 am #

      The difference is that a late third trimester abortion of a healthy fetus in a healthy woman is virtually unheard of whereas this sort of thing happens all too often, as Dr. Tuteur has documented.

    • Ennis Demeter
      April 29, 2014 at 10:35 am #

      When abortion is legal and accessible, third trimester abortion is very rare. Indeed, at that stage of pregnancy, an abortion might be called induced labor of a nonviable fetus, depending on the circumstances. When a woman has access to legal and safe abortion and she does not want to be pregnant, she can ethically terminate the pregnancy in the first few weeks. If a woman does not have access to legal and safe abortion, she may very well wait until the second or even the third trimesters to abort. She may even practice infanticide or abandon the newborn. This happens all over the world and has happened all throughout history. It is one of the reasons abortion should always be legal and accessible. I have long suspected that a certain number of women who for religious or family reasons will not contemplate abortion or even birth control, are engaging in risky birth practices so that they may avoid responsibility for terminating a pregnancy they don’t want. I think it is monstrous and cowardly but I strongly suspect that is what is going on in some cases. This does not mean that women should not always have total autonomy over their bodies and their healthcare. I just wish more women would be brave and honest enough to terminate a pregnancy early on instead of deliberately risking the lives of a newborn.

    • Mariana Baca
      April 29, 2014 at 11:06 am #

      R.vW does limit abortions after viability. They are still legal in certain cases but not normally in healthy sane mother/healthy baby. Although I disagree with abortion in general, I stil think there is a difference between wanted baby in healthy mother dying from negligence for her desire to avoid c-section vs. baby being killed for a specific medical or psychological reason, normally unavoidable. I guess if she claims that a c-section is so traumatic she should rather have an abortion that a live baby, there might be some rare practitioner in some select state willing to do the procedure, dunno if that skirts the legal line or not.

      • GracieW
        April 29, 2014 at 1:36 pm #

        Doe vs. Bolton–abortion is legal through all 40 weeks of pregnancy. Thank God there aren’t many doctors willing to butcher a baby weeks away from birth. Though there are a few. Leroy Carhart…fine doctor, that man. Runs a couple clinics. One out in Nebraska has a GENERATOR for power. Totally good medicine there. He butchered Jennifer Morbelli in her 8th month of pregnancy because Jennifer didn’t want to have a disabled daughter so she chose to end her daughter’s life weeks before birth. Carhart just sent another woman to the hospital (this time from is Nebraska clinic). Why this man still has a medical license I’ll never know. He is a threat to his patients.

        • Siri
          April 29, 2014 at 1:48 pm #

          Too bad the choice of providers is so limited when it comes to late-term abortion; if Jennifer had been able to access better services, she would still have been alive and could have tried for another baby the following year. The stigma, picketing and threats of violence scares most reputable providers away.

          • Irène Delse
            April 29, 2014 at 2:29 pm #

            Without the stigma, threats, pickets, plus in some states a growing number of legal restrictions on abortion providers, she might have found one earlier too. Aren’t most serious anomalies found in the second trimester, with the anatomy sonogram test and/or an amniocentesis? But if a woman can’t find an abortion provider near her, it means she has to travel elsewhere, get the money to finance the trip, etc. Delays can end up making it the dreaded “late term abortion” when the pregnancy could have been terminated before viability.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 3:35 pm #

            Exactly. The more obstacles are put in women’s way, the greater the likelihood of late abortions, either legal or backstreet.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 29, 2014 at 4:03 pm #

            Occasionally the diagnosis isn’t clear in the second trimester or the severity isn’t clear. Third trimester abortions might occasionally result from a woman trying desperately to hang onto a wanted pregnancy gone wrong and then finally acknowledging that it just isn’t going to work. For example, severe twin-twin transfusion where the options are save one twin or let both die. Or AML developing at week 24 or so where the question is whether to let the mother live or kill both. It’s all very rare, FSM be thanked, but it happens.

          • Medwife
            April 29, 2014 at 2:58 pm #

            And just the flat-out murder of providers, even a small number of them, in a field where few are brave enough to enter, significantly decreases patient access to care. Remembering Dr. Tiller, shot dead at church.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 3:33 pm #

            Yes indeed! Utterly horrible and incomprehensible to me as a European.

          • Mariana Baca
            April 29, 2014 at 4:06 pm #

            Except there are far more restrictions on abortion in Europe than in the US. Maybe that is why there are less extreme positions on the matter there.

          • Dr Kitty
            April 29, 2014 at 6:50 pm #

            In some parts of Europe.
            In most of the UK it is effectively maternal request until 24 weeks and foetal abnormality/maternal health or life until term.
            98% of abortions in the UK are before 24 weeks.

            In the UK I think it is about religion (which is why NI is the exception). Most of the UK is secular, with a deeply held MYOB approach to abortion. NI…not so much.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 7:47 am #

            I don’t think so; the UK has pretty liberal access to abortion. And Norway, with more restrictions, still had its share of fanatics covering plastic fetuses in ketchup; I’ve never come across anything similar here.

          • April 30, 2014 at 12:29 am #

            I would have been sent to Dr. Tiller had I been a couple weeks further along..and if he hadn’t been murdered two weeks earlier.

          • Siri
            April 30, 2014 at 7:44 am #

            Oh gosh – that brings it really close to home! How awful. And particularly horrible for you at that time; I’m so sorry. What is wrong with some people? And how dare these murderers call themselves pro-life?!

          • April 30, 2014 at 11:23 am #

            Edited to move where this comment was supposed to go.
            It was hideous. I was lucky enough to be taken to OHSU where I received the best, most compassionate care of either of my two pregnancies. I believe that my providers may have fudged my dates a little to do this, given the strict, arbitrary dates late term bans set. We didn’t discover my son Isaac’s birth defects – despite looking for them – until just on the edge of “too late, yesterday you could spare your beloved baby a life of pain, today you have to force him to suffer.” I was terrified of protesters and violence, but instead it was love, respect and gentleness that released my baby. My living son was conceived one year to the day from his brother (um, happy Valentines day), had the same due date and is now painting on my dining room table with his oatmeal.

            I don’t regret it, not for a moment. We did what was right for our family and our son(s). To compare the experience of an anguished family choosing death for a wanted baby, supported by a team of high level MFM, OB and RN professionals to the arrogant bragging of “invincible wonder woman” wwho was so hell bent on not letting stupid doctors be the boss of her and then allowing her healthy, perfectly formed baby to die a totally preventable death is contemptible and ignorant.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2014 at 1:30 am #

            Any family faced with that terrible choice deserves the compassionate care that you received. I don’t understand our culture sometimes.

          • Siri
            May 1, 2014 at 1:39 am #

            You totally did the right thing, Kq. You bore the pain and anguish so your little boy Isaac wouldn’t have to. <3 One day those oatmeal paintings could be worth a fortune!

          • Busbus
            May 1, 2014 at 1:41 am #

            With all these comments, I didn’t even see your post until just now. I am so sorry for your loss, Kq. And I’m glad you were able to get the care you did.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2014 at 9:07 am #

            I’m sorry for your loss! And for the additional trauma you had to go through to save your son from unnecessary suffering.

            I’ve been lucky enough to never (yet) need an abortion. I have, however, been involved in the decision to recommend a “late term” (usually second trimester but 20+ weeks) abortion a couple of times. It’s always been a sad decision, but, given the alternatives in each case, never a hard one.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 10:53 pm #

            Absolutely. I can’t remember which state – I want to say N. Dakota? – has ONE clinic. ONE. For the whole state. And I wouldn’t be shocked to know that other states have only one clinic. That’s going to have unintended effects.

            Do hospitals not perform abortions at all? Even in cases of medical necessity, to save the mother’s life? I honestly don’t know.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 30, 2014 at 11:38 am #

            Hospitals do perform medically necessary abortions, although, since ambulatory women tend to go to abortion clinics, more commonly it is medical management of a natural miscarriage.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          April 29, 2014 at 3:43 pm #

          Morbelli died of an amniotic fluid embolus. A rare complication of pregnancy, much more common in delivery than in abortion. The Maryland board of medicine ruled that Carhart did no wrong in this case. But I’m sure that the “pro-life” movement knows so much more about it than the medical establishment.

          I’m not sure why a generator is so significant to you. Most medical clinics and all hospitals in the midwest have generators as backup because tornadoes knock the grid down quite often. I expect that since terrorists have been targeting Carhart for years he would want some kind of defensible power supply as well.

  26. oyvei
    April 29, 2014 at 12:04 am #

    That anyone can read this story and see those pictures and parachute in and defend what this woman did is absolutely mind-boggling.

  27. M B
    April 28, 2014 at 11:50 pm #

    I am a very independent person. I lived alone for many years and I am used to make my own decisions. I am a feminist too.

    When I got pregnant a lot of things changed. I was happy to risk my own life sometimes… Not anymore. I was happy to do unhealthy things sometimes… Not anymore. Now I am looking after someone else!!!!! Someone that is not independent and not able to make decisions yet and depends on me. Therefore I am looking after my baby the best I can, I am eating healthy, exercising regularly, going to bed early, not drinking a drop of booze, taking folic acid and not crossing the road without a green light.

    Not listening to my doctor’s advice is out of the question. I am following my allergy specialist advice and my OB advice to the word.

  28. sofrustrated
    April 28, 2014 at 11:31 pm #

    “I’m an invincible control freak”
    Yup. That pretty much sums up why your son is dead and shouldn’t be.

    How horrifyingly tragic.

    It would not surprise me AT ALL if she got pregnant again and attempted another vaginal birth. That seems about par for the course for this mindset.

  29. Ob in OZ
    April 28, 2014 at 10:50 pm #

    Interesting post (as in, I hate hearing these stories again and again), and excellent comments. One point tossed around but should be clarified. You cannot be forced to have a c-section (ok, court order aside but I guarantee she would not qualify for that extreme an approach…until maybe the end). So if she shows up at a hospital she would not be refused care no matter what the c-section/vbac policy. she would not be transfered because it would be risky. She would be admitted, offered c-s again and again, asked to be monitored, IV access etc, and hope that she accepts appropriate intervention. And if she didn’t, she would sit in a room in labour with appropriate personel on hand hoping she changes her mind. If someone has an example of a pregnant woman being refused admission to a hospital in labor, please tell me about it. I would love to know how they did it becasue there are plenty of patients I know are going to be difficult. So teach me how to keep them out!!!

    • Anj Fabian
      April 29, 2014 at 5:29 am #

      In the United States, any hospital that takes federal dollars must provide appropriate care for a woman in labor.

      That includes transferring the patient when indicated, but she can’t be denied care altogether.

    • T.
      April 29, 2014 at 6:11 am #

      They SHOULD refuse ammission to such people. Sorry. But why should the hospital ending up being sued for millions because idiot?

      • Lena
        April 29, 2014 at 8:22 am #

        I think they should be offered the exact care they want, on the condition that they sign a form that prevents them from suing if anything goes wrong.

        I’m actually all for malpractice suits and am against tort reform, but there needs to be an exception for pregnant women who insist on ignoring medical advice. They want to give birth in hospital but refuse every recommended intervention? Fine. Let them go bankrupt caring for a the brain-damaged child they created.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          April 29, 2014 at 8:39 am #

          I think they should be offered the exact care they want, on the condition that they sign a form that prevents them from suing if anything goes wrong.

          It sounds reasonable, but it isn’t. The main thing that does is enable unscrupulous providers. That would far overwhelm the effect of protecting providers against nutjobs like these.

          The “I didn’t really understand the consequences” excuse might get overused, but then again, it is also true.

          Women (nor any patients) should not be expected to understand the nature of the risks completely – that is the Doctors’ responsibility. It just won’t work to absolve them from that.

        • Siri
          April 29, 2014 at 10:36 am #

          What if the woman has a really low IQ? What if she has a mental illness? What if she has been brainwashed by a cult? What if she is a victim of a controlling, abusive husband? You just get them to sign on the dotted line and sit back and watch the trainwreck? You can’t do that to people; it’s simply unworkable. None of us are competent to direct our own care, although some of us may be deluded into thinking we are. It’s still the professionals’ responsibility to protect and advise us to the best of their ability. Your proposed plan is far too harsh.

        • PrimaryCareDoc
          April 29, 2014 at 10:47 am #

          Plus, you can’t waive the rights of a third party (the child, in this case).

        • lilin
          April 29, 2014 at 1:45 pm #

          Doctors are human beings. I wouldn’t – and couldn’t – turn a patient who has an emergency away from a hospital, but I’m not going to silently sit there and watch a woman, full of self-righteousness, kill her kid.

          • Lena
            April 29, 2014 at 9:10 pm #

            I don’t think anyone should be turned away, but if a laboring women with a really shitty obstetric history refuses all interventions, then what? Either way she can’t -and shouldn’t be-forced to undergo treatment. At least signing a waiver will ensure no one gets sued because of her arrogance.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 9:17 pm #

            She should be told over and over and over and over by every OB and nurse and anesthesiologist and pediatrician on the floor the exact ways in which she is putting her child’s life in danger. And it should be extensively documented.

            Unfortunately, waivers don’t work. They just don’t. It sounds great, but they simply do not hold up in court no matter how they are worded.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:16 pm #

            “She should be told over and over and over and over by every OB and nurse and anesthesiologist and pediatrician on the floor the exact ways in which she is putting her child’s life in danger. And it should be extensively documented.”

            I completely agree. F*** her whining about not wanting to be bullied. Anyone with half a rational thought could see that the recommendations were based on her current case and not hospital ideology. They shouldn’t have to tiptoe around people, just as they can’t force care upon people reasonably sane enough (by legal requirements, I guess) to decline. If little missy doesn’t like it, she’s free to stick her fingers in her ears and shout “VAGINA, VAGINA, VAGINA!!” every time they come in to address her.

            I feel uncomfortable speaking of a woman in this manner who has lost her baby, in general at least. But I don’t have that discomfort here. She is clearly owning the results of this escapade and it’s sickening to me. It dissolves all my sensibilities. I just felt the need to add that disclaimer. 🙂

        • Dr Kitty
          April 29, 2014 at 6:58 pm #

          No.
          Your proposal fails the ethics test on all grounds.
          Beneficence
          Non-maleficence
          Utility
          Autonomy

          You cannot sign away your rights and the rights of your child in the throes of labour.

          • Lena
            April 29, 2014 at 9:04 pm #

            Except I’m talking very specifically of women who make these decisions long before they go into labor. Their minds are made up months in advance and if they can’t find a hosptial and OB who will cater to their whims they will find midwives as batshit as they are or go it alone. At least if they’re in a hospital, allowed to labor and birth how they want without anyone “bullying” them beyond initial recommendations, their babies will get immediate care when things go wrong, and no doctor has to worry about getting sued for her efforts. I don’t see the net harm, here.

            3 premature births.

            2 c-sections.

            A history of previa.

            Decides to homebirth.

            If this women had made it to the hospital in time to deliver a live but brain damaged baby she would have sued, and possibly won.

      • NoLongerCrunching
        April 29, 2014 at 8:34 am #

        Because the baby deserves the highest level of care.

      • Siri
        April 29, 2014 at 10:33 am #

        So refuse admission to a difficult mother and bugger the baby? What if the person whom you refuse admission turns out to be mentally ill? Even if someone is a bona fide idiot, should they be denied access and written off? You can’t decide to admit people on the basis of whether they are idiots or not. The world is full of idiots.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      April 29, 2014 at 9:20 am #

      Her writing implied that she perceived being offered a c-section, especially more than once, as bullying and that one reason she wanted to labor at home until fully dilated was to avoid anyone asking her whether she would accept a c-section. As far as I can tell, there was never a question that she might be forced to take a c-section, only that she might be urged to have one more strongly than she was comfortable with.

    • Lion
      April 29, 2014 at 11:17 am #

      Here in South Africa we have an article in the newspaper every few months about women who arrive at hospitals in labour and nurses tell them they’re busy or weren’t booked in or just straight to go away, they give birth in the reception area (and are then made to clean it up) or outside on the grass or dust bowl. Different situation of course, but you did ask for an example of a woman in labour being refused care. Our health department does investigate and presumably some heads roll.

      • Ob in OZ
        April 30, 2014 at 11:32 am #

        Forgot how diverse a group writes comments. Similarly I’m aware of a Northern Africa country where a busy hospital turns you away if you’re too normal. Just wondering, do you have many patients who decline intervention once admitted and offered, and how is it handled?

        • Lion
          May 3, 2014 at 5:01 am #

          Hi, I don’t work in health care, so I can’t answer the question. Home birth is very fringe here, but our medical aid companies do cover it and cover an ambulance to hospital and c section at hospital. All our midwives are proper nurses though, we don’t have CPMs. Our c section rate in private hospitals is rumored to be around 70 percent, so I don’t think too many people are refusing any form of treatment. I have had two natural births in hospital, labored in water, had an epidural with the one, all my wishes were taken into account. Our government hospitals c section rate is apparently around 60 percent. Basically, in any given mothers group it isn’t that common to meet another mother who didn’t have a c section. If you want to have a natural birth you have to look food a doctor willing to let you try. Some state out right that they only do c sections. My only request when I met with doctors was that I be allowed to try for a natural birth but that if there was a problem the doctor would do what I was paying for and intervene. We do have our share of women having unassisted childbirth at home, not vaccinating etc, but they’re a tiny number of people and I actually suspect some form of mental illness with their conspiracy theory outlooks on life.

          • Ob in OZ
            May 4, 2014 at 10:04 pm #

            Thank you for your perspective. I would not have thought the c-section rate was that high, but then it is accounting for the presumption that most deliveries take place outside the hospital setting and not by choice. I think it shows that those who are able to attend a hospital are able to prioritise their baby’s welfare and go for a c-s if wanted/needed. Surprising that you would have to “fight” for a low risk but supported delivery, but I would wonder if they have to prioritize their care differently. Meaning if your low risk and normal, we don’t have the bed space and staffing to wait for you to have a natural birth becuase we need the room for patients already experiencing complications. If that is the case it puts you in a very difficult position

  30. CK
    April 28, 2014 at 10:49 pm #

    I was just looking at a photo of her beautiful son. The one thing that strikes my heart with sadness when seeing these beautiful, perfect babies is just how sorry I am. It just isn’t meant to be. He shouldn’t have blue lips. He should be crying, and wiggling. That beautiful boy was meant to live. And despite it all… I’m so sorry to his family.

    If you read this… I’m so sorry.

  31. Renee Martin
    April 28, 2014 at 9:48 pm #

    When I think of all the medical care this woman WASTED, and arrogantly used, only to turn around and bash them, it makes me furious. Talk about ZERO appreciation of all that she had available, and that she used up.

    FFS! She had the use of EXPERTS, three of them, of the highest quality! She had a fully staffed hospital available. She used every bit of the available resources, probably 100x what most other women use! I bet she took docs and nurses away from their patients so they could attend this train wreck. I am sure she never thought about how her actions effect others.

    She had a stat CS, which used up an OR, experts to do all the surgery, blood for transfusion, 3 docs, a bunch of nurses, an anesthesiologist, and on and on. I am sure there was also a peds team on board just in case the baby had signs of life.A roomful of experts, tens of thousands of dollars of quality care.

    Seriously, I want to know- WHY she even bothered with the hospital based team of CNM, OB, and MFM?. Why even bother with planning a hospital VBA2C- even if it was just for the actual delivery?

    When I think of the MILLIONS of women who would KILL for this opportunity? Even some women in the USA cannot access this level of care, let lone in the rest of the world.

    • Busbus
      April 28, 2014 at 10:53 pm #

      I’m not a doctor, but it sounds to me as if without expert medical care, this woman would most likely have NO living children.

      • Karen in SC
        April 29, 2014 at 7:31 am #

        THIS^^ She had the benefit of expert medical care to give her three healthy children and somehow this time, she believed that the doctors were lying to her, the warnings were lies, and she could still get her vaginal birth. Because that is what she wanted.

  32. Renee Martin
    April 28, 2014 at 9:07 pm #

    What is it about having a baby come out a vagina that is worth DEATH? It is just a vagina, not the end of a rainbow, or the gates to heaven, FFS.

    Then there is this:
    “My son most likely died within the first 10 minutes though we will never know and for that I am grateful. My CNM arrived around midnight as planned and she couldn’t find baby’s heartbeat.”

    Her innocent baby suffered, and suffer he did. Even ten minutes is a long time when things are going badly, leading to fatality! He probably bled out and suffocated- all to avoid a CS. (And sadly, they left her uterus in, so she can try again- I am sure she will. Maybe she will turn up on the “VBAC after rupture” board…)

    What is with the CNM that wasn’t even there? Either she was negligent, or she refused to be the MW for this disaster, which would make more sense. I wonder if she actually told her laboring at home was ok? I would bet anything that they all said with exasperation “no, we cannot force you to have a CS if you come in pushing”.

    This is not approval, it is a fact, and I am sure it was warned against. No OB/MFM would approve of this. I can see a CNM thinking that she is supporting a woman’s choice, even if its the wrong one, but encouraging it? Hard to believe any CNM working in a hospital would be ok with this.

    Defending her by blaming the hospital is total bullshit too. They gave her the very best care, she even had an MFM! She chose wrong, and this was entirely foreseeable. All of her hospital history? I bet its all bull shit too. Usually I believe a woman when they say they were pushed into a certain course of action (even if it was the right one), because it happened to me, but this lady? I cannot imagine she went in there with any reasonable attitude. Her perceptions so colored by her beliefs that she will see what she wants to, IMO.

    • Jessica S.
      April 29, 2014 at 11:23 pm #

      “Maybe she will turn up on the “VBAC after rupture” board…”

      For some reason, reading this made me think that their lives must be pretty drama free if they’re willing to actively seek out the train wreck that a VBAC after rupture would likely be. And for what? It’s not as if there aren’t plenty of highly skilled specialists happy to do everything they can to help bring a live baby into the world for a mother who has suffered a rupture. The only catch is that it’s going to be HIGHLY MANAGED and “medicalized”. (I hate that term.) It exposes the truth of what these women are after: an experience, with a live baby being the cherry on top.

  33. Ennis Demeter
    April 28, 2014 at 8:31 pm #

    Sometimes I have dark thoughts about these extreme cases. When I read accounts of very religious women being reckless with their childbirth, I wonder if losing the ability to bear more children is a hidden agenda.

    • Trixie
      April 28, 2014 at 9:35 pm #

      I sure would have been terrified to risk pregnancy again after the second one.

      • Kupo
        April 28, 2014 at 11:07 pm #

        I plan to stop at two. Until amnesia and delusion sets in again, I guess.

    • Jessica S.
      April 29, 2014 at 11:24 pm #

      Hmmm, I’ve never considered it from that angle. Very interesting. You’ve given me something to chew on. 🙂

    • prolifefeminist
      April 29, 2014 at 11:40 pm #

      Honestly, I wouldn’t be that surprised. I know several women who’ve married into essentially religious cults…controlling “godly” husband, refusal to use any method of family planning whatsoever, and the role of the woman is wife and mother, period. Anyone who questions the tenets of the cult is punished and/or thrown out (usually it’s a teenager/young adult who gets kicked out for rebelling; the wives rarely do, probably because they don’t want to risk losing their children).

      I know one woman (we went to college together) who married a man who is like this (and is an abusive alcoholic on top of it all – but insists that every decision he makes is to be followed because women are to obey their husbands). Anyway, my friend is utterly miserable but she is so defeated that she doesn’t have the will to leave. She’s had 6 babies, all at home, all with crap home birth midwives, and the last 4 she had serious underlying medical issues (hypothyroidism, anemia, and just overall malnourished). Her stupid midwife didn’t hesitate to charge her fee and encourage a home birth. Thankfully my friend has survived thus far, but she has been beaten down and broken and I absolutely do not for a second think that there are not women out there who risk dangerous deliveries either consciously or subconsciously. I don’t think my friend purposely makes dangerous birth choices; I think that her husband pressures her to HB and she’s so broken down that she just doesn’t care what happens to her or the baby. It’s horribly sad and infuriating, all of it.

  34. fiftyfifty1
    April 28, 2014 at 8:04 pm #

    Funny how this mom was dead set against c-section when it was just the life of her son on the line. But then after she ruptured and it was her life on the line she consented to it. Which is fine. I believe the life of the mom is more important than the life of the baby. But let’s be clear here about the priorities: My life >my experience>my son’s life

    • April 28, 2014 at 9:23 pm #

      Is it even a c – section at the point you’re removing a dead baby floating in his mother’s abdomen up near her spleen? Where it is not floating in amniotic fluid, but his mother’s blood? Oh, but her uterus did it’s job.

      Mel, I just puked too. Ain’t only you.

      • Trixie
        April 28, 2014 at 9:33 pm #

        Is it just me, or does she sound a bit proud that her uterus “did its job”?

        • Hush
          April 29, 2014 at 12:44 am #

          Trixie, this sort of off hand nasty comment is the sort of thing that sticks with people forever and haunts them and makes them feel ashamed for their own honestly and thinking… If I were you I would not say such things about other human beings… It is wrong.

          • Who?
            April 29, 2014 at 1:16 am #

            I think when Trixie is weighing up her choices, she’ll feel a lot better about herself than will someone who left a baby to die so that she could have the birth experience she wanted.

            This mother should feel thoroughly ashamed of herself.

            Spare some of your sympathy for Griffin and the poor medical staff who had to fish him out of his mother’s abdomen, and then took the time to clean him up so she could have her photos. And incidentally for his dad who seems to have completely disappeared out of this story.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:22 am #

            Not buying into this line of emotive crap. You just don’t want anyone to own up to how nasty it is to sit here and judge this poor woman. It’s like you guys are the meannest mean girls ever.. picking apart and tarring and feathering a mother when she falls at the bottom of the barrel for the blame. Where is all of your outrage btw for the children of my friend who died because of a careless NCB group and a negligent midwife and most none of you all are even kinda interested in it?? Hundreds and hundreds of replies to me simply arguing with you about this topic but I mention a real life person who I know for certain is dead and a few measly replies… You all do not value life. You value your own feeling of superiority and assholery.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 1:25 am #

            I’d be interested as anything in that incident. I bet if you tell Dr. Amy enough details, she’d write it up. Without sharing your name or breaching your confidentiality in any way.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:26 am #

            You guys would blame HER. I couldn’t see that happen.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:29 am #

            Why? I don’t understand why you don’t see the logic? There’s plenty of stories on here with sympathy towards a mom who was duped, tricked, and hurt both by hospitals and by non-hospital-based birth workers. This just IS NOT THE CASE. This lady was delusional and self-aggrandizing.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:31 am #

            Maybe I am just grieving. I don’t view this woman as any less deserving of pity than anyone else who has been hurt and then duped.

          • Certified Hamster Midwife
            April 29, 2014 at 1:34 am #

            Neither do most people here.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:41 am #

            I am really sorry to hear that. And I am so sorry for your loss. I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to lash out when we’re hurting.

            I agree with the others, I think Dr. Amy would be very interested in hearing what happened to your friend. FWIW, my own mother had several homebirths in the late eighties. I get the decision-making behind the choices. I even can see where some homebirths could putatively be reasonable, especially if you don’t know the stats. We need sites like this to present a critical analysis.

            Honestly, it might be helpful to take a step back for awhile. This site is definitely a black and white, outsider’s view of things. And we need that sometimes. I probably wouldn’t invite that woman here while actively grieving. I get why this would all make you angry.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:49 am #

            It has actually been a while since it happened. I just didn’t really grieve because I wasn’t really in her real life. I was “just an online friend” as they say. I have felt a nagging sense of being really disturbed and upset and reminded a lot about it since it happened, though. The group she got advice in that we belonged together, it didn’t even mention her death? It was like it never happened. Just, erased. It just feels so wrong to me that no one seems to know or care about this.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:55 am #

            I certainly don’t see how #notburiedtwice wouldn’t apply to mother’s lost to NCB anymore than infants. Please do try and contact Dr. Amy. And don’t worry about bringing this up here. I’m sure you’ll find sympathetic ears every time.

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:37 am #

            Yes. This is the cognitive dissonance of the natural childbirth movement. Anything that doesn’t fit their narrative, like the trail of dead and injured babies and mothers, is swept under the rug. We are fed up with this. That’s why we are here.

            Please, stick around and read. Poke around at some old posts. I think we are your tribe and you just haven’t realized it yet.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 7:43 am #

            It is so common and sucks so bad. If one has a bad homebirth and things go wrong, the midwife gets protected, the story gets brushed under the rug, they want to erase it all. In my case, I didn’t want to give homebirth a bad name, was told not to scare other moms with a bad homebirth story, didn’t want to be kicked out the homebirth circle was in as I was beginning to make friends, etc. Kathy Mitchell, my former midwife, has had at least 6 traumatic births under her belt and no one that uses her knows about them until I mention them. There is this veil of silence and it needs broken! It is so wrong.

          • Busbus
            April 29, 2014 at 10:56 am #

            I am sorry, Hush, for your loss, and for your friend and her family.

          • Mariana Baca
            April 29, 2014 at 2:13 am #

            I’m sorry for your loss. This sort of preventable loss by the NCB movement is exactly what this site is designed to warn women against. It is good to air out your grief and try to get closure or a voice for your friend duped by this movement. It sounds like the group you are a part of is trying to brush off this preventable death away, and nobody here would ever want that.

          • Anj Fabian
            April 29, 2014 at 5:07 am #

            She has my pity. Sympathy? Not so much.

          • yugaya
            April 30, 2014 at 5:07 am #

            I do not pity her. I have empathy for her, the same way I have empathy for any victim of systematic ideological brainwashing.

            I am sorry for your loss and I know exactly the kind of irrational guilt you feel over what happened to your friend. A lot of people commenting here carry that what could or should I have said or done burden, myself included.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:33 am #

            The mom is dead guest. Not the baby.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 1:39 am #

            Given the little bit that you mentioned, that her midwife ignored dangerously high blood pressure and there were no other medical professionals involved at that time, then no, I wouldn’t blame her. I’d blame (and ideally sue) the midwife.

            In this case, multiple doctors told this woman that what she wanted was terribly dangerous, and she deliberately went out hunting for one of the few midwives that would take on a client like her. (Some home birth midwives would have turned her away!)

            I do have enormous empathy for her loss, and I absolutely blame the midwife, but I still believe that the mother knowingly made bad choices that led to this tragedy.

            Fifteen years ago, a childhood friend of mine drove off the highway and into a tree just a few days before he should have graduated high school. All three of the youths in that car were DOA. He and his buddies made bad choices that day, they were driving way too fast. He was always doing reckless things like that, and at the time I was pretty angry with him for it. It didn’t make me hate him, though.

            I can feel sympathy towards someone and still believe that they made bad choices.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:43 am #

            Poor choices, okay, sure, but the evisceration I cannot cope with right now. It feels like things are being said that a mother could read and become despondent. She freaked out in her blog about one letter of a sort of harsh friend. This blog is like 50 people directly blaming her, some in REALLY awful ways. It’s waaayyyy harsh.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 4:06 am #

            She wouldn’t BE eviscerated! It’s starting to sound like an excuse on your part. Put up or shut up, Hush!

          • Anj Fabian
            April 29, 2014 at 5:13 am #

            I burned your condolence card? That post?

            Yes, the friend who tried to discourage her from doing whatever she did sent her a card telling her something. I don’t know what, but it was likely along the lines of “I tried to spare you this tragedy, but you wouldn’t listen. I’m sorry, but you did this to yourself.”.

            You know what’s REALLY interesting about that post? What could the blogger have been planning that someone would think was dangerous? Laboring at home for a few hours? That doesn’t seem so risky. Staying at home until the last possible minute? That’s risky, but not as risky as the idea that she was going to have a home birth. That would be as risky as she could get and while she never states that was what she was trying for, why would she have enlisted the help of a doula and a midwife?

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:30 am #

            She wrote those things, on the internet, under her real name.

            Dr. Amy’s goal is to get people to read these stories so that hopefully it saves some lives in the future.

          • Busbus
            April 29, 2014 at 10:52 am #

            You know, I feel for this woman, too. I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to have to live with this kind of sorrow and crushing guilt. I wish she could have made those bad choices and still went home with a healthy baby. I wish her and her family better days ahead.

            But this is not just about her. This is about other women who buy into that crap, and about those who encourage it. This is about all the message boards that promote taking these kinds of risks, and about the women who get caught up on this way of thinking about birth. For some (many?) of them, heating about the risks from their medical providers isn’t enough, because they have been convinced not to trust these doctors. Maybe taking about the reality of what they are about to do – risk their baby’s life for an experience – will get through to at least some of them.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:54 am #

            Thing is, my friend did make some poor choices. She knew her blood pressure was high. She just kept being convinced by her midwife and the group and herself that it was NBD. It was like the twilight zone where you are talking and talking and go look in the mirror and your mouth is whited over.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:58 am #

            I feel like that’s completely different. I would have no idea if my blood pressure is concerning or not. I remember being pregnant and suddenly there was just so much I didn’t know. One day I felt this huge pressure in my groin, maybe 28 weeks pregnant. My doctor had me go in to get checked, but if he had said, no worries stay home, I probably would have. (All was fine, but he had had a lady at 24 weeks with the same symptoms go and find she was 5cm that week) All of which is to say, if her midwife told her she was fine – I don’t know why we’d blame the mom. In my book that’s medical malpractice, among other things.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 2:07 am #

            –I– knew it was dangerous. I said so. A few times. I told her privately and publicly but then suddenly she didn’t talk to me about her blood pressure anymore so I really didn’t know it was still high. I thought maybe something had worked to lower it.. The stroke that killed her after her baby was born? That was my clue that she had stopped talking to me about it because she didn’t want to hear what I had to say about that anymore. Of course, this is a lot of suspicion and not a lot of proof. I don’t actually know that her BP was high at the end of her pregnancy. I do know it was high at the middle and her midwife knew and was like whatever shrug. I’m not three doctors.. but I’m not really someone I’d ignore who said hey you know blood pressure is something I used to take daily (my dad taught me to take his BP because he has high blood pressure) your BP it’s not safe. I just don’t want her eviscerated. She was a good person…. Like this mother is probably a freaking good person. Good people sometimes just make mistakes..

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 2:21 am #

            Please don’t blame yourself. If my friend warned me – I don’t know, my friend isn’t my healthcare provider. I can’t see anywhere in your descriptions where your friend made definably “poor” choices.

            I agree, good people can make mistakes. Although, I guess I would think the term “good people” is kind of irrelevant to this discussion. Where do we draw the line? Do we need to draw a line? I mean, this lady was selfish. My sister wants to have a homebirth. She knows its more dangerous. If something happens to her baby I would never, ever, ever say anything like “I told you so.” But we all know she’s making a decision that is for her benefit and not her baby’s. She acknowledges it would be safer in a hospital. In a decision like that, it’s simply a zero-sum game.

            Your friend’s case sounds very different. She was trusting a so-called professional, and the professional failed. If you choose a provider to manage your care, and you follow their advice, the onus is on them. (Unlike this case, where she chose and discarded the advice she didn’t like until she found someone who echoed her own beliefs – that CNM should lose her license, but the mom intentionally found her after being warned over and over and over).

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 4:03 am #

            And most of the loss mothers who comment regularly on here, will admit to making mistakes too. Doesn’t mean they get blamed for it; we all make mistakes all the time. The ones that get blamed are the ones that don’t recognise their mistakes, make them again, encourage others to make the same deadly mistakes, and thereby present a risk to other mothers and babies. Big difference! I drove drunk, my kid died, so why don’t you drive drunk too? It’s so liberating! I still do it now with my new baby! It’s the best! Lemme show you how!

            Lots of us had homebirths; lots of us work in the relevant field; it’s a really diverse group, with participants from several countries. I am so, so sorry for your friend and her children, and for you too. Please ask Dr Amy to write about it; we’d all want to hear the full story, and I promised every comment will be sympathetic.

          • Anj Fabian
            April 29, 2014 at 5:25 am #

            You can’t save everyone.

            You can’t save everyone, especially if they don’t want to be saved. The comments by the docs who offered valid treatment options to substance abusers, only to have the abusers refuse them? Couldn’t save those people because they don’t want to be saved.

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:27 am #

            I’m very sorry for your friend’s death. It’s inexcusable on the midwife’s part. Please write up more details and send them to Dr. Amy privately.

            This is an entirely different situation. This mother is a hospital RN. She has the training to know and understand exactly what she was choosing to do and exactly how dangerous it was. She understood exactly what the OB and MFM were telling her. Instead of listening to them, she hired a birth hobbyist doula and stayed home by herself.

            She’s still telling other people to go ahead and UBAC.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 7:35 am #

            I just read that your friend died. Oh my gosh, I am so sorry! Your friend was probably told by her midwife to stop talking with you about it and to ignore anyone who was saying anything negative. That is a common thing. So sorry.

          • Amy M
            April 29, 2014 at 7:44 am #

            I’m sorry to hear about your loss, that’s very sad. I wouldn’t blame your friend. I’d blame the midwife who convinced her that high BP was just fine and dandy, and who probably suggested that she avoid anyone and anything who told her otherwise.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:55 pm #

            That’s awful. You must have – and still do, I’m sure – felt completely helpless when she died. You were a good friend, the best kind, for trying to get through to her. I hope you believe that.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 3:52 am #

            Hush, many of the regular commenters on here ARE loss mothers themselves. Why would they stay here if they felt blamed by a bunch of mean girls? Your comments just show that you haven’t read nearly enough on here to get a true impression of what goes on. And the hundreds of replies have been triggered by your hundreds of antagonistic comments, many extremely annoying due to your lack of any professional knowledge. Plus, you show no sign of budging from your extreme position. I would advise you to leave this particular thread for a while, read around on here for a few days, then jump back in with a more open and reasonable attitude. You’ll get a very different response! This bunch of commenters is actually a really decent and warmhearted set of people of all ages, sexes, backgrounds. There’s a place for you here if you want it, but you won’t find it if you just carry on haranguing everyone.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 7:32 am #

            Oh man! I totally know what you mean. My BP started creeping up at the end of my first pregnancy. I was scared, but the midwife made it seem like she had it under control (had me taking an array… and I mean an array… like 40 pills a day) of herbs and tinctures to keep it down, plus a ton of protein shakes. Later she mentioned that had I been at a hospital, they would have done a c-section right away after a certain appt. where my BP was very high. Like it would have been the worst thing in the world… a c-section. When labor started, my BP was normal and so that didn’t end up being a problem… it was the whole shoulder dystocia thing.
            I can totally sympathize with your friend about being basically tricked and lied to. That sucks.

          • MLE
            April 29, 2014 at 2:15 pm #

            40 a day????

          • Irène Delse
            April 29, 2014 at 2:40 pm #

            Homeopathic pills maybe? If we are talking about what they call “granules”, the pills are very small and the recommended dosage be ten or twenty at a time. Not that it would be any good of course. These pills are 100% sugar.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 4:32 pm #

            I wrote them down with the numbers of in my son’s baby book for some reason. They were vitamins and whatnot… 5-W, garlic pills, B-6, Liver, tons of Mastergland, Prenatal, Spirulina, BP Formula, Vitamin C, Evening Primrose Oil, Rescue Remedy

          • April 29, 2014 at 11:48 am #

            That’s so sad, and I have nothing but sympathy there. I didn’t realize you’d reposted her story on this thread when I commented above – as we approach 1000 comments in just about 24 hours, stuff will get missed. I absolutely empathize with your unheeded warning and don’t blame your friend.

          • prolifefeminist
            April 29, 2014 at 2:18 pm #

            My HB midwife glossed over my high BP too, even though I’d had PIH with all three of my previous pregnancies and was 41.5 wks with the current one. Instead of telling me to go to the hospital, or even telling me to go get lab work done, she told me to use Rescue Remedy, take magnesium supplements, and drink a mixture of cream of tartar and lemon juice. Completely asinine, but in my ignorance, I followed her advice – after all, she was an “expert in normal birth.” She was a CPM who’d received awards from MANA and was adored within the NCB/HB community. I trusted her.

            I’m so very, very sorry for what happened to your friend, Hush. I read the stories on here of mothers and babies dying from HB and I realize, sickeningly, how easily it could have been me. I was a 42.5 wk, hypertensive, macrosomic-baby, HBAC-attempting disaster waiting to happen, but I got lucky and my son is now snuggled up next to me, very much alive and healthy (thanks to an eventual c-section). My heart mourns for those who were lied to and paid the ultimate price. And my blood boils that the NCB movement tells women over and over that their worth is in their ability to give birth vaginally, and that “good mamas” should ignore medical experts and instead listen to their “inner wisdom.” I once fell for that too, and although it’s humiliating to admit, ultimately I was the one responsible for making the final decision to trust my midwife over my OB.

            I think in this particular case here, of baby Griffin, it’s really difficult to absolve the mom of guilt because she had SO many experts warning her in great detail not to attempt a vaginal birth. I think this case is quite different from many others, such as your friend’s, where the midwife was the main or only “expert” and her advice to the mom was not to worry, everything is fine. It’s one thing to believe that, and quite another to be told by numerous experts, including a CNM, OB, and MFM, that your uterus is extremely likely to rupture and kill your baby, and choose to proceed anyway. Night and day, IMO.

            Btw, I planned a VBA2C in the hospital with an OB with my last pregnancy. Agreement was that as long as everything staying within normal limits (normal size baby, not post dates, no hypertension, etc.) a VBA2C in a tertiary care center was reasonable. When I again developed high blood pressure, this time at 31 weeks, my OB immediately sent me to the hospital. This time I developed severe pre-eclampsia and after a foley bulb induction and stalled TOLAC, my OB offered to break my water to see if that would help me dilate past 4cms. I declined and instead chose a c-section. I didn’t want to subject a preemie (who would already be struggling to survive) to the additional risks of an infection or cord prolapse. At that point a VBA2C no longer seemed reasonable to me. We calmly delivered a healthy premature baby by c-section, who did remarkably well in the NICU and is now a healthy, developmentally on-track toddler. It’s hard to wrap my head around taking the risks that Griffin’s mother did. The loss of a baby is just…it’s just so massive and final, compared to the loss of a birth experience.

          • araikwao
            April 29, 2014 at 7:20 pm #

            See, that kind of story does not get the same judgement that has bothered you, because the mother attempted to voice her concerns, but was shut down by an incompetent provider. And you should be able to trust a healthcare professional – isn’t that why you see them? Because they are trained and paid to be an expert in the area? That is such a devastating story, and in complete contrast to the one in this post.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:51 pm #

            That’s horrible, Hush. I wouldn’t think to blame you friend for one second. Just reading that they were down playing the risks makes my blood boil about those charged with taking care of her.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 2:09 am #

            TY by the way for sharing your personal story about a loss with me that was nice of you…

          • Mariana Baca
            April 29, 2014 at 2:06 am #

            Read most of the posts on this site: the midwife and NCB is overwhelmingly blamed.

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:20 am #

            No. There are lots of commenters here who are victims of homebirth midwifery, and whose children are. They are not mocked or blamed by any regular commenters here. Quite the opposite.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 7:26 am #

            Hush, my son is a victim of a homebirth midwife (severe birth injury) and I have received more compassion here than I have on any other boards. They encourage me to share vs. what other boards did (which was encourage me to keep quiet and not ruin the name of homebirth… a common occurence with homebirth trauma mamas). I fully admit that I was arrogant and selfish and made the wrong decision in choosing homebirth (I was caught up in the lies, lies, lies) and my son paid the price (he was able to be brought back to life by some miracle and I can only imagine how hard it’d be if he wasn’t able). I lived in denial for a good 2-3 years, but when I moved past that and really understood the gravity of it all… it was hard. It took time to wade through the lies I believed for so many years, to own up to my mistakes, etc. This will be a long road for the lady who was posted about. That is why I wondered aloud what she will think in 2 years.

            Anyway, the regular commenters here are livid about my former midwife and have had nothing but empathy for my son and I. Again, much more so than the NCB community.

          • anion
            April 29, 2014 at 11:06 am #

            It sounds from what you’ve said that she was the victim of inadequate care, and that while her choice to have a HB midwife may have been a contributing factor, the actual midwife’s ignorance is to blame.

            We commenters are smart enough to see the difference. There have been numerous HB deaths written about here in which no one truly blamed the mother–we may have wished she hadn’t fallen for the NCB lies and made a bad decision, but we completely believe she was misled and deserves our sympathy.

            The difference is that those women made a poor choice because they were misled; they didn’t generally ignore expert advice over and over again. They didn’t put their experiences above their babies’ lives repeatedly. They didn’t rely on and then insult medical professionals repeatedly. And, especially, they didn’t go online afterward insisting that it was the fault of those evil doctors who wouldn’t let her do a reckless thing, and who told her that her baby could die and turned out to be exactly correct in that.

            And even then, we have sympathy for her, and we have sympathy for many like her–there have been plenty of such instances here. This is just a particularly egregious case.

          • April 29, 2014 at 1:28 am #

            most none of you all are even kinda interested in it

            You are kidding right?
            Have you even read any of the other posts on this site?

          • Who?
            April 29, 2014 at 1:38 am #

            In no way is this mother at the bottom of the barrel for blame, she is right at the top, standing on it waving her arms. You bet she’s being judged, for her arrogance and the catastrophe it caused.

            Of course the risk is that others planning similar approaches will be reinforced in their view that anyone who disagrees with them is ‘mean’, and so feel cornered and ‘forced’ to pursue their course to the same bitter end. So much emphasis on rights, so little on responsibility.

            I’ve never been moved to comment here before, though often read the posts and replies. This story is so sad and horrifying and was entirely avoidable. I have all the sympathy in the world for Griffin and for those who were traumatised by the fallout, but it runs dry for the person who caused it.

          • Who?
            April 29, 2014 at 1:46 am #

            Also meant to say the loss of your friend sounds terrible; I’m sorry to say I didn’t see your earlier comments about it.

            If you look more at this site you’ll see stories like that you describe, with empathy and sympathy for traumatised families and deceased and damaged babies. You’ll also see people like yourself, who don’t buy the homebirth line, and would like to see the carnage stop.

          • birthbuddy
            April 29, 2014 at 3:42 am #

            I own up to judging this woman. Her baby should be alive today. She was selfish and the baby is dead.

          • April 29, 2014 at 3:50 am #

            Because we believe that it happened, and it sucks. Sympathies on your loss.

            Please write Dr. Amy with details that she can confirm. She’ll post it and add it to the list of homebirth deaths that she keeps, and we will all be outraged anew at NCB and incompetent midwives. Your story simply got lost in the hundreds and hundreds of comments here- seriously, this thread is going to break 1000 if it hasn’t already. But a primary post won’t be lost.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 6:06 am #

            You know, Hush, comments like this make you sound like a properly nasty person, which I’m sure you’re not. There seems no limit to what you will call everyone else, and yet they’re the mean ones? Many of these commenters devote their lives to saving mothers and babies, and you have the gall to accuse them of not valuing life?!

          • Karen in SC
            April 29, 2014 at 7:36 am #

            Sorry about your friend. That is horrible. Is it on this post? (I’ve been asleep, it’s now morning in my timezone.)

            For a maternal death, we tend to do the same. If possible, the midwife is named as a warning to others.

            If you commented on an older post, it’s unfortunately easy for those comments to get lost on this Disqus system.

          • PrimaryCareDoc
            April 29, 2014 at 7:43 am #

            I’m judging. Judging, judging, judging. She’s a selfish woman whose reckless behavior led to the death of her child.

            I’m judging you too, Hush. You’re a hypocrite. You sit there and judge all medical professionals but shake your finger at us for judging this woman.

          • Carolina
            April 29, 2014 at 10:42 am #

            Have you spent any time on this site? It is chock FULL of posts about NCB idiocy that leads to death and injury. That’s 90-something percent of the content. What do you think this post is? It’s a post about a woman who bought into the NCB line of crap hook, line and sinker. And her baby died as a direct result.
            Honestly, you need to stop attacking and start reading.

          • anion
            April 29, 2014 at 10:56 am #

            Thanks for calling my reply, in which I offered sympathy and genuinely tried to support you, “measly.”

            And I believe there weren’t many comments replying to you because we didn’t have/know the whole story. I looked at the obit, and Googled your friend. Her beautiful children broke my heart. But there were no facts about the circumstances of her death beyond your statement about her BP–not even how high it was–so there was little for us to comment on.

            I suggest you email Dr. Amy with the facts, and she may actually do a separate post about it if there’s enough verifiable info. Or if you want to write a comment with the whole story, beyond simply “My friend’s midwife said her BP was fine, but it was too high and she died,” you will likely get more responses.

            No one here was uninterested, there just wasn’t much to comment on.

          • Hush
            April 30, 2014 at 11:03 pm #

            Bitter, bitter.

          • April 29, 2014 at 11:43 am #

            I also replied with deep sympathy and concern. Also, that story wasn’t posted on this thread, so it’s a bit much to expect everyone to remember it, especially when you’ve been bloating the comments here defaming the very people who would most likely have saved your friend. I am still very sorry she died, and I hope you WILL send details to Dr. Amy in hopes she may highlight that preventable death.

            But that isn’t what thus thread is about. So it isn’t what we’re all talking about.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:40 pm #

            Yes, definitely send the info to Dr. Amy!

            ETA: I’m echoing your sentiment, Kq, not instructing you thusly. 🙂

          • Hush
            April 30, 2014 at 11:07 pm #

            Bloating it, eh?

          • April 30, 2014 at 11:47 pm #

            Way to totally miss the point. AGAIN. YES, you are bloating this comment thread. You have bullheadedly returned to your irrelevant TO THIS CASE claims about VBAC/VBA2C bans, mean doctors and personal agency. You’ve insisted a group of people who have repeatedly been sympathetic and empathetic about the death of your friend would demonize her, despite multiple, thoughtful comments to the contrary. You have consistently slammed doctors, nurses, hospitals and policies with rhetoric, actively ignoring facts that contradict your position, reframing your argument and denying you’ve reframed it. You better believe that’s bloating the comments.

            Oh, but the system is bad and we’re all mean girls and you JUST KNOW what we’d do. How about you just hush already.

          • Hush
            April 30, 2014 at 11:50 pm #

            Fine. I will.

          • moto_librarian
            April 29, 2014 at 2:55 pm #

            I did post a response to you on the thread where you told the story. I think it’s awful, and yes, the midwives should absolutely be punished! Honestly, I had forgotten that you posted it.

          • Amazed
            April 29, 2014 at 3:03 pm #

            Where did you post it? You expect us to find it among more than 1000 comments here (by the way, there’s been a problem with the comment section since yesterday and many of us cannot load older comments) and comment on it like we do on the very post that is very visible on the top of this page, detailed and supported by what the moron herself wrote? My, you are quite determined to picture us as the evil witches.

            This said, I am sorry for your friend and her children. I do believe that there are mothers who are taken advantage of.

            I also believe that you’re so full of shit that even your eyes are brown, St Hush.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:39 pm #

            Hush, I was having major issues with Discus last night, and I couldn’t view more than maybe a third of the comments. It’s still a bit screwy today. I guarantee you, no one glosses over such things, and if I had read it (hopefully I’ll find it??) I would have absolutely responded. I’m sorry that you’ve lost a friend. Please let us know if there’s anything we can do to help.

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:16 am #

            And for the siblings of this poor baby.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 3:37 am #

            But it’s the truth, Hush.

          • Amazed
            April 29, 2014 at 5:56 am #

            Funny how you are so happy saying much worse things about thousand of human beings who only had the best interests of this selfish moron and her baby in mind.Alas, they were ready to do the unthinkable. Sacrificing the birth experience for no better reason than a healthy baby. Acting out of policy, traumatising this mother whom you’ve made into some kind of heroine by doing the best for her and her children by convincing her husband to cooperate… but hey, they are evil. And St Hush saying it about them… It’s right.

          • Trixie
            April 29, 2014 at 6:15 am #

            She wrote it, not me. She chose an HBA2C out of the belief that her uterus would expel a baby. In the natural childbirth movement, knowing your body is not a lemon is important.

          • April 29, 2014 at 11:36 am #

            Shame isn’t a dirty word. Being ashamed of your actions/words/choices isn’t always a bad thing. I have many things I am deeply ashamed of – that haunt me. Some of those “haunts” are indeed things people said about my bad choices.

            I’m glad for it. That spurred me to change. That haunting also keeps me mindful of what I say and do going forward.

            This mother NEEDS to recognize her mistake and NEEDS to change.

          • prolifefeminist
            April 29, 2014 at 11:46 pm #

            I love this post, Kumquat. Love it.

            I too would rather face my screwups and learn from them than pretend they didn’t happen and learn nothing. I hope in time Griffin’s mother is able to face her mistake, forgive herself, and change.

        • Siri
          April 29, 2014 at 3:36 am #

          It isn’t just you. That’s exactly how she sounds. And I’m not a native English speaker.

        • Jessica S.
          April 29, 2014 at 11:32 pm #

          Yes. That was my first thought, too.

      • Haelmoon
        April 29, 2014 at 2:33 am #

        Technically you are correct. Proper terminology is a laparotomy, removal of fetus and repair of uterine rupture. If we don’t open the uterus, it’s technically not a c-section. I once was involved with a rare case of a viable abdominal ectopic pregnancy. That baby was delivered via laparotomy, not a c-section. Semantics though.

        • Jessica S.
          April 29, 2014 at 11:31 pm #

          Incredible! Were both the baby and mom ok?

          • prolifefeminist
            April 29, 2014 at 11:43 pm #

            Yea, that is pretty incredible! I had no idea an extra-uterine pregnancy could be viable long enough to be delivered. What are the mechanics of that? What does the placenta attach to in a case like that?

            What a fascinating (and difficult!) job you have, Haelmoon! Amazing.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 11:47 pm #

            “What does the placenta attach to in a case like that?”

            Anywhere there’s a blood supply:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_pregnancy

          • prolifefeminist
            April 30, 2014 at 12:14 am #

            Wow, that is incredible. Thanks Stacy. Here’s what I’m wondering – the article mentions that deformities are common due to the lack of amniotic fluid. I thought that fluid was necessary for lung development…so how could a baby survive such a thing?

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 12:32 am #

            I honestly have no idea other than the body is an amazing thing sometimes. I don’t believe it’s “built for birth” but the things we manage sometimes are hard to believe. 🙂

            Maybe someone with more/different letters after their name can explain.

          • Mer
            April 30, 2014 at 10:14 pm #

            There was a show on several years ago about 4 different pregnancies like that and how it happened and how the babies were able to grow and the difficulties in keeping mom alive when baby was delivered. IIRC one of the babies was actually one of those infamous “stone” babies because he couldn’t be born and the mother was in an area without any advanced care. Anyways, my point was that in all of them, the amniotic sac was intact and the only body part that ruptured was moms tube. Other than what I saw on TV though, I have no clue!

          • Amazed
            May 1, 2014 at 9:37 am #

            We had a similar case here about a year ago. A rural woman went to the ER with stomach complaints, ended up with a living baby carried full term in her abdomen.

          • Haelmoon
            April 30, 2014 at 12:29 am #

            Amazingly yes. The placenta was attached to the top of the uterus, which was part of the reason it was difficult to diagnosis. It was a rare secondary abdominal pregnancy – the pregnancy started in the cornua (place where the tubes meet the uterus), ruptured, but continue to grow the placenta on the outside. This was confirmed on the pathological specimen, because there was placenta in the uterus. It wasn’t realized until 32 weeks (she was in hospital for a “previa” as it looked on ultrasound). The water broke into her abdomen, and the baby was imaged under the liver. Not surprisingly, this was very uncomfortable. An urgent MRI made the diagnosis. She had a laparotomy, removal of viable fetus and subtotal hysterectomy. Mom went home in under a week, baby was in hospital for 7 weeks, had a funny shaped head for awhile, but did very well.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 12:34 am #

            Wow I love modern medicine. Thank you for what you do.

          • Jessica S.
            April 30, 2014 at 7:50 pm #

            My word, that’s incredible!

    • Hush
      April 29, 2014 at 12:38 am #

      This comment is downright evil. I hope this poor woman never reads it.

      • guest
        April 29, 2014 at 1:09 am #

        Wah? Pointing out someone’s priorities is “downright evil?” You don’t seem to understand that people should be responsible for their choices. Heck, you advocate autonomy for women. I agree. But that means that when I make a lousy choice, I am the one that is responsible for that choice. The buck stops with me. Not my doctor, not my nurse — me.

        I get that this would probably be a hard thing for this mom to read, but she’s living in lala land. Regardless of whether the doctor’s bullied her or WHATEVER, she made a choice based on her personal preferences for birth, not the safety of her child. She’s 100% entitled to make that decision (and she did, by the way), but crowing about how wonderful her decisions were, when it resulted in the death of a human being whose life she was responsible for. I think that certainly deserves some critical responses.

        I’m sure there are some cases out there where a woman’s autonomy was stripped away. Heck, it’s arguable that many of the CPM-related cases do exactly that by withholding informed consent. This is precisely a case where a woman’s autonomy WAS respected – right into a tiny coffin.

        • Hush
          April 29, 2014 at 1:17 am #

          The comment is evil. It implies that the mother only acted once she herself was in peril.. when it was very, very, clear that she was devastated about this loss and would have acted immediately if she believed that the baby’s life was in danger. It is an evil comment meant to deride the mother as a caring mother and suggest she cared only about herself…. The mother was afraid her autonomy would not be respected in the hospital if she had gone there immediately upon going into labor, I did not say her autonomy was not respected.

          • Who?
            April 29, 2014 at 1:25 am #

            I know it’s painful but she behaved as though she cared more about her experience than the outcome. She acknowledges she was told what would likely happen and decided to try anyway.

            Maybe the cosmic lesson here is that fear is what should be feared-if she had conquered her fear of loss of autonomy (tricky for an invincible control freak, I grant you) she would have a baby in her arms now. But then we wouldn’t all be talking about her either.

          • April 29, 2014 at 11:30 am #

            I wonder what her trial would look like in Albert Brooks’ Defending Your Life

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:26 am #

            Unfortunately, in this situation, her primary care WAS herself. As you pointed out, she cared more about her autonomy than on protecting the life of her child. She was warned that this was likely to happen. She CHOSE to believe otherwise by ignoring the expert’s advice. As pointed out many times below, you find one medical personnel out of many who’ll do what you want (if that is indeed what happened), you’re in an echo chamber.

            I do feel empathy for her loss. If I knew her that’s all I would tell her, absolutely, but this isn’t a loss support group. This site is designed to help prevent disasters of this nature. I hope that a mom contemplating this type of behavior would read the comments here and think about where her priorities lie.

          • birthbuddy
            April 29, 2014 at 3:37 am #

            She was told her baby would die and she went ahead anyway and her baby died, That is evil.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020
            April 29, 2014 at 7:46 am #

            “It implies that the mother only acted once she herself was in peril..”

            Ummm… that’s EXACTLY what happened.

          • BeatlesFan
            April 29, 2014 at 9:44 am #

            She knew the baby’s life would be in danger from the get-go, she was told by multiple professionals. You’re the one who keeps repeating that she didn’t go to the hospital initially because she thought she would be bullied into a c-section; clearly, she cared more about avoiding a c-section than she did about her son being born safely. That she cared more about herself and her preferences than her child could not be more glaringly obvious.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 29, 2014 at 11:00 am #

            It may be evil, but I don’t see any way in which it is untrue. She didn’t act to save her son. She may not have done that deliberately and I’m sure she’s devastated by the loss of her son, but the fact remains that she chose to risk her son’s life for her experience. And lost the bet.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 5:30 pm #

            “would have acted immediately if she believed that the baby’s life was in danger”
            Except she didn’t. Every day past 36-37 weeks her baby’s life was in danger and she was told that. She just didn’t “believe” it. But of course, that’s due to her “autonomy” not being “respected”.

            I’m sorry, but if your “autonomy” makes you stupid, I don’t have to respect that.

          • Jessica S.
            April 29, 2014 at 11:29 pm #

            There is no way this woman could NOT have known, pre-freaking-conception, that her baby’s life would be in danger if she rejected the same type of care that brought her other high-risk pregnancies to fruition. This should not have been a surprise to ANYONE, least of all herself, an RN.

      • Siri
        April 29, 2014 at 3:39 am #

        How can it be evil when it is borne out by the mother’s own words? I think you have a different interpretation of the word evil than I do.

      • lilin
        April 29, 2014 at 1:54 pm #

        I hope the woman herself never reads it, but I hope a lot of people in her previous state of pregnancy do. I hope they realize the morality of a person who is happy to let a child die for lack of medical care, but goes running to the hospital when they themselves are in danger.

      • Stacy21629
        April 29, 2014 at 5:29 pm #

        No. Evil would be posting it on the mother’s own blog.

      • Jessica S.
        April 29, 2014 at 11:26 pm #

        Your interpretation of evil is interesting.

    • Mac Sherbert
      April 29, 2014 at 11:51 am #

      After reading her comments again. I think she thought the only way she could love and bond with this baby was if she had another VB.

      “Was amazing and despite 24days in NICU she is amazing!” – These are statements about her first birth. Her 2nd birth she describes as traumatic and states she had bonding issues. Neither the 2nd or 3rd babies are described in glowing terms (maybe in other places on her blog, but not here). She remarks the 3rd birth was healing, but then complains about it. I think this 4th birth was all about getting the high she had after the first birth.

      Never mind I just read her blog.

      • Mac Sherbert
        April 29, 2014 at 11:54 am #

        By never mind I mean…She states over and over how invincible she is…She just thought she knew it all. She just thought she could win.

        I was trying to work up sympathy for her. The pain of a dead baby must be unbearable, but she just seems completely disconnected from reality.

        • April 30, 2014 at 12:36 am #

          I need some levity.
          http://i.imgur.com/8FeMI6g.gif

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 12:43 am #

            That is a PERFECT. Thank you.

            ETA: I mean, really, lady – you’ve failed to birth a live term baby 6 out of the last 7 times. How “invincible” are you?

          • April 30, 2014 at 12:55 am #

            Thanks. I actually wanted to find a gif from Goldeneye – Alan Cummings saying “I’M INVINCIBLE” the moment before he gets frozen by a wave of liquid nitrogen and then shattered. But Monty Python works too.

            http://youtu.be/Tl0LZsyi_tA

            We laughed during our first son’s death. We laughed at the funeral of my best friend. I laugh in the darkest moments. Because sometimes it’s the only way to survive.

          • Stacy21629
            April 30, 2014 at 12:59 am #

            “Because sometimes it’s the only way to survive.”
            So true. :-/ 🙂

    • guest
      May 3, 2014 at 1:55 am #

      Why does that bother you? You just said you agreed that her life is more important than the baby’s.

      • Stacy21629
        May 3, 2014 at 2:46 am #

        Probably because out of one side of her mouth, the mother says “I’m doing the best thing I can for my baby.” But then DOESN’T act in the best interests of her baby. The only time she DOES act decisively is when her OWN life was in danger.

      • fiftyfifty1
        May 3, 2014 at 8:50 am #

        I have no criticism of mom’s life being more important than child’s. It’s a choice that every woman should be able to make without criticism. But if you’ll notice, there are 3 priorities listed above, not just 2. You can continue to value your life over your child’s life without also valuing your birth experience over your child’s life.

  35. OldTimeRN
    April 28, 2014 at 7:52 pm #

    Mother to be “I want to deliver they way I want, against medical a dive. I want no intervention. No IV, no fetal monitoring, no sonograms . Let me do what my body was meant to do”
    Doctor/Nurse “You’re baby is in fetal distress, you need a stat section”
    Mother to be “Can I think about it? Maybe try to labor on all 4’s”
    Doc/Nurse “No your baby needs to come out now”
    Mother to be “SAVE MY BABY”
    Doc/Nurse “I’m sorry your baby died”
    Mother “You killed my baby”

    Again hate to judge, but stop making woo decisions then come running for the hospital personnel to come to the rescue and save an impossible situation, then blame us when we can’t do anything. In the hospital we don’t do many stat sections. You know why? We monitor. We pay attention. We communicate. We deliver BEFORE a situation becomes dire.

    And contrary to popular woo belief we do take patient’s wishes into account. But when the life of the mother and baby are in danger, then wishes are thrown out the door in favor of what’s best medically for mother and baby. Talk about us all we want, at least your baby and you are alive.

    • anne
      April 28, 2014 at 8:13 pm #

      I’ve been imagining the OR scene in my head and how sorrowful it must have been for the medical staff. She wrote that three doctor’s were there, and then you think of the nurses and other medical professionals that interacted with her and had to deliver a dead baby.

      • OldTimeRN
        April 28, 2014 at 8:20 pm #

        I’m a pretty emotional person. I’ve cried at work many times. Some happy cries, some sad cries. Not that I’d say the nurse’s sorrow supersedes the parents, but we aren’t above feeling the sorrow. Our jobs go way beyond the medical aspectl for most of us.

        • Ob in OZ
          April 28, 2014 at 10:38 pm #

          me too

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          April 29, 2014 at 12:32 pm #

          Me too. I’ve gone as far as yelling and throwing things too. (Admittedly, that was when the problem was the insurance company refusing to pay for a procedure that could save the patient’s life. I think it was the threat to contact the papers that eventually got them to relent.)

    • Chu
      April 28, 2014 at 8:32 pm #

      With VBAC attempt, they noticed some decels and let me around a bit and his hr would go back up. His HR dipped into the 40s and they didnt even ask, they called it and took any decision making away from me, broke my bed down and wheeled me out to the OR. Luckily he was perfectly fine and I was fine. Still cant tell me what happened, theory was cord was being smashed. It happened so fast I could have imagined it. I think I signed a consent form. lol.

  36. OldTimeRN
    April 28, 2014 at 5:56 pm #

    If she ruptured in the hospital, we would have known almost immediately because the heart rate would have dropped or lost. Mom would have been taken for a stat C/S where that baby could have been delivered in less then 2 minuted. Maybe even within one minute.
    I’m sorry to judge but it’s crazy like this that the OB world has to be so restrictive with other birthing Moms. Give them an inch and they want a mile. They potentially ruin it for the rest of us.

    • Hush
      April 28, 2014 at 6:05 pm #

      She didn’t have a placenta previa.

      • Anj Fabian
        April 28, 2014 at 6:53 pm #

        Placenta previa + preterm labor + hemorrhaging was birth #3.

        Preterm labor + breech was birth #2.

        Preterm labor + vaginal birth was birth #1.

        Birth #4 was HBAC, spontaneous labor and the odds are very much in favor of another preterm labor.

        Also her uterus was a lemon that tried to eject her children before they were mature and on the fourth try, split open and ejected that baby into her own abdomen.

        Treacherous organ!

        • Jessica S.
          April 28, 2014 at 8:15 pm #

          Seriously. At some point, it’s rational to recognize “hmmm, maybe *my* body isn’t compatible with bearing children. I guess I have two choices: don’t have (any further) children or accept the modern medical advances that can help me have a least a few more children than without it.” But no, in this case, ignorance is bliss.

        • Hush
          April 28, 2014 at 10:46 pm #

          It does sound a bit treacherous. I don’t see why she thought a home birth was a good idea. I still think, though, that she had her own reasons.. she had support of a CNM.. she had her reasons for distrusting the obstetricians, and she had thought it out but obviously not considered every fact. I don’t honestly feel so bitter or upset with her the way you lot do, I just feel pity.

      • OldTimeRN
        April 28, 2014 at 7:09 pm #

        Don’t recall saying she did. She had something far worse. She baby ripped through her uterus and wasn’t getting the oxygen his little brain needed to survive.

        • Hush
          April 28, 2014 at 10:43 pm #

          I don’t know how that response got put where it did. I replied to someone else who had asked if she had a previa. I said she did not.

    • Trixie
      April 28, 2014 at 6:34 pm #

      Exactly. I didn’t used to understand why some doctors didn’t want to do VBACs (I was a good candidate and had a hospital VBAC), but the more I realize these kinds of lunatics are out there, the more I see why they don’t want to. Seriously, stop ruining it for the rest of us who WANT EFM and doctors there should the need arise for an emergency c-section.

    • CanDoc
      April 28, 2014 at 9:16 pm #

      I don’t know her obstetrical history, but a CS for a premature breech would have an increased chance of an inverted T incision (similar to a classical incision) in the uterus, resulting in a dramatically increased risk of uterine rupture. This may be part of why she was advised so emphatically against a VBAC. My blood boils.

  37. Trixie
    April 28, 2014 at 5:30 pm #

    Re: Hush’s speculation that a VBAC ban forced her to HBAC: Dr. Amy states that the hospitals near her routinely do VBACs right there in the piece. Since she probably has this woman’s full name, surely she can look up the hospitals in her area and whether they offer VBAC. So I think we can not blame a VBAC ban.

    • Hush
      April 28, 2014 at 5:31 pm #

      I speculated it was a VBA2C ban out of policy, not a VBAC ban.

      • AllieFoyle
        April 28, 2014 at 6:09 pm #

        Even if it was “policy”, so what? Why do you think a hospital might be motivated to have a policy like that? Do you think it might have something to do with the unreasonably high risk involved in VBA2C births?

      • The Mole
        April 28, 2014 at 6:17 pm #

        You’re wrong. She had a hospital within 50 minutes of her that’s had successful VBAC2C, even a twin birth that was a VBAC2C.

        • lilin
          April 28, 2014 at 6:56 pm #

          But! But! Now who can she blame for this woman’s medical decision?

          There’s gotta be a way to blame the evil “system.”

          • The Mole
            April 28, 2014 at 7:27 pm #

            Damn the “evil system” that’s in place to protect these mothers and babies.
            Griffin’s safety was first and foremost when his mother went looking for a vbac2c with her history. The doctors she saw also had her safety and well being in mind.
            I don’t see how Hush can not see this.
            Griffin would be in his mothers arms right now had she listened to these OB’s she went against.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 10:39 pm #

            Why does it have such a poor reputation, said system, of respecting women and their wishes.. in that woman and many a woman’s mind.. if they have done nothing to gain such a poor reputation? I don’t see how you cannot see that.

          • C T
            April 28, 2014 at 11:01 pm #

            You want us to hold an entire field responsible for some jerks. And use those jerks to justify discounting a slew of studies and statistics, too. Not going to happen. There is literally no way to get rid of all the jerk doctors. But at least they do get punished for hurting people. Isn’t it a good thing that they belong to a “system” that disciplines them for ethical violations and malpractice?
            You know, there are jerk homebirth midwives, too. Read a few homebirth loss stories if you don’t know any horrible stories about what some midwives have done to their patients.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:44 pm #

            I do. Hold the field responsible. They don’t always discipline people they sometimes just move….

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:46 pm #

            So why don’t you blame the death of this baby the NCB crowd and their assertion that this type of birth is safe? Only doctors get blame for not being accepting enough?

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:50 pm #

            I actually do think that her “community” had a hand in it too.

          • sofrustrated
            April 29, 2014 at 12:00 am #

            In what way? Please, outline it for us with the same level of outrage you have leveled against doctors and hospitals.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 12:14 am #

            Well, they already have most of you attacking her and them. I figured the other side needed a voice. The HB people probably told her it was safe, fine, great.. never mind all your risks.. look at all these ladies here who did the same or more.. never mind your history.. i wouldn’t be surprised if people told her don’t bother researching their side, don’t listen to them they just want to scare you. I wouldn’t be surprised if her doula was a CPM that wasn’t monitoring things at all in a way that was appropriate. It sounds like they told her and her CNM told her to stay at home as long as possible.. That was a really common thing among HB people in a group I used to belong to.. even to high risk moms they’d tell them stay home as long as you can.. Stay out of the hospital.. you don’t want them messing with things. No matter the risk factors, too. Things like high blood pressure, GD, twins, multiple cesarean history, etc.. All the same thing.. They were wrong, trust your body! I wouldn’t be surprised if someone from a cesarean support group or a natural birth group was talking to her, reassuring her, telling her stuff like “trust your body” etc. right up until the transfer… when they would suddenly get disgusted because they didn’t get their natural birth and baby fix..

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 12:52 am #

            Didn’t I post that I do?

          • C T
            April 29, 2014 at 12:24 am #

            The irony of you saying that after what some homebirth midwives do after a bad outcome (change aliases, practice without licenses, etc.) is rich. As a matter of fact, so is your whole “blame the field” approach given how many homebirth disasters this site has made me aware of. Taking that approach, I would be more than justified in taking a very hard line against CPMs and homebirth CNMs. (Actually, given the stats showing a 4-fold increase in baby deaths from homebirths, I think I would already be justified.)

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 12:42 am #

            They are partially responsible for disenfranchising…. I did not suggest that home birth midwives have a better system of accountability.. What a weird leap.

          • lilin
            April 28, 2014 at 11:30 pm #

            Keep moving the goal posts, honey.

            They were going to give her a c-section against her wishes!

            They weren’t? Wait, okay, maybe they were just going to be really unsupportive because it’s a state-wide policy!

            It isn’t? Wait, okay, maybe it’s just a bad system. There, that’s vague enough that no one could ever argue with me. It’s a bad system! Somehow! Which I will say without any proof, or any evidence at all!

            Tell you what. Let’s weigh all the unethical decisions made by doctors, and all the unethical decisions made by mothers. Wonder how those numbers will stack up.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:36 pm #

            I never moved the goal posts. I simply responded to your lots changing argument against mine. I still fully believe they may have been coercive, there may have been a VBA2C ban, she seemed afraid her husband would consent for her, etc. I didn’t change my beliefs at all I simply acknowledged that most of those thoughts were speculation.

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:41 pm #

            “they may have been coercive, there may have been a VBA2C ban, she seemed afraid her husband would consent for her,”
            But you see NONE of that matters AT ALL. Because it was still an unbelievable risk for her to take. And she lost. And she should know better – whatever her out of hospital (perhaps for a reason…) CNM told her. MANY hospital providers warned her against this. But she did it anyway. I’m sure she’s not the first VBA2C to chance it against “hospital policy” but her VBA2C was not most VBA2Cs and SHE KNEW THAT. She did it anyway.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:43 pm #

            None of it mattered at all? What if there wasn’t such a nasty shadow and she didn’t have a reason to be so distrustful and I don’t know… believed them that they were taking her into particular consideration?

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:44 pm #

            OF COURSE THEY WERE TAKING HER INTO PARTICULAR CONSIDERATION!!!

            Good grief, that’s why she was advised against doing this.

            Because with HER PARTICULAR obstetric history, attempting a vaginal birth was extremely likely to end in a dead baby.

            How much more personalized care do you want?

            I’m sure if she’d asked them to play Enya during her RCS they would have complied.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:50 pm #

            Of course, but did she think so?? Obviously not.

          • sofrustrated
            April 29, 2014 at 12:02 am #

            “But did she think so”

            So that’s the doctors’ and hospital’s fault? That she was given what turned out to be 100% accurate information regarding the risks she was taking, and rejected it.

            There are people today that believe in geocentricity. We should give them a pass if they want to change our science books, right because “they don’t think so” despite the evidence?

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 12:16 am #

            Not all their fault.. no… but you guys paint it all like the hospitals and way doctors behave aren’t big business and aren’t partly to blame for women disenfranchising when .. oh.. they are.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 7:53 am #

            You know what I find interesting… the majority of my homebirthing friends have never met with an OBGYN, never been in a hospital for a birth… books they read created a fear of the unknown (and many of the books were wrote back in the 60’s and 70’s… a very different time in hospitals than today). After my traumatic homebirth, I chose to birth in a hospital for my subsequent children (after having an unhealthy baby, I knew I had a greater chance of a healthy baby in a hospital). I was SO scared and programmed by NCB to be scared, to be mistrusting, to think it’s some big business that will do things against my will, etc. What I found was the complete opposite… HONEST, compassionate, kind people working together and with me. Wow. I wanted to shout from the mountaintops, “We’ve been lied to! It’s not all bad!” What also helped me (sadly) to come to that conclusion was our entry into the world of children’s hospitals after my first son was born. We go to two big children’s hospitals and the care of so many doctors and medical professionals… wow. They are passionate, they care, they treat on an individual level.

            I know this woman is different. She had been in hospitals, but in my area, the majority of women who have homebirths have never stepped foot in an LandD floor.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 5:36 pm #

            Do you know what else is “big business”? Good medicine. Yes, that’s right. Good medicine producing good outcomes IS NOT FREE. You want live babies and healthy mothers? It COSTS MONEY.

          • Amazed
            April 29, 2014 at 5:43 am #

            You can’t help stupid. She was stupid, dumb, irresponsible, cared about her amazing uterus more than she did about her baby and the baby died.

            I am waiting breathlessly for St Hush, defender of poor scared mothers who are an autonomous agency whose rights should not be infringed on to come scold me how heartless I am.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa
        April 28, 2014 at 6:21 pm #

        It doesn’t matter. Even if the hospitals would do VBA2Cs, she was a terrible candidate for one, and they were in their right mind to refuse HER. Not the concept, but HER.

        Then again, as Allie says, what’s wrong with a VBA2C policy, if the hospital believes that they are too much risk for THEM. (Don’t bother quoting the ACOG, because the hospital knows full well what the ACOG says; however, that does not mean they are adequately equipped to to it)

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      April 28, 2014 at 5:51 pm #

      Absolutely. You don’t need a VBAC ban to explain why no one would do that for her. Clearly, it was based on her history and her condition.

    • CanDoc
      April 28, 2014 at 9:19 pm #

      I speculated elsewhere that VBAC may have been contraindicated in her given i) 2 cesareans and ii) her prior CS for a premature breech would have a high chance of a “T” incision in uterus (similar to classical, done because the head is bigger than body and can be tricky to deliver or get stuck with a usual lower segment incision). Hence, hospitals that would normally offer VBAC may not have been willing to offer it to her.

      • Trixie
        April 28, 2014 at 10:18 pm #

        HBA2C after inverted T is a special kind of stunt birth. I imagine the doula would have been pretty excited about that.

  38. Jessica S.
    April 28, 2014 at 5:11 pm #

    I can’t get past this statement: “… my hubby and I even had social workers sent in for us because my RN (who was 8months pregnant) couldn’t understand that a healthy baby was NOT my only goal outcome.”

    I have nothing further. What is there to say?

    • madwife
      April 28, 2014 at 5:38 pm #

      Im confused? Was she refusing a luscs. With a known placenta previa?????
      Was she really wanting a normal birth despite this life threatening complication?

    • AmyP
      April 28, 2014 at 9:39 pm #

      I take it the RN understood that all too well.

  39. aj_18
    April 28, 2014 at 5:10 pm #

    She should be charged with her baby’s death. What an idiot.

  40. PrimaryCareDoc
    April 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm #

    Patients like Hush drive me crazy. They refuse to take our advice and want to direct their care, but the minute that things go south they point fingers.

    It reminds me of a patient I had who was an alcoholic. I recommended he go to AA- no, it wasn’t for him. I recommended that he go to an inpatient treatment center- no, it would take too much time. I recommended that he go to inpatient detox for a few days and then an IOP program- no, not interested.

    He wanted me to prescribe klonopin so he could do a “home detox program” that he read about on the web.

    I refused.

    He then blamed me when a month later he got a DUI and lost his job.

    • Hush
      April 28, 2014 at 5:19 pm #

      I’m not sure why I drive you crazy.. Maybe because I do not view doctors as always having the purest of intentions and you are a doctor so you feel offended by that?? I actually had a very medicalized birth of my first and felt it was all necessary. He was in a weird position and was descending very slowly and we needed some help. Also, I did everything my CNM recommended during my second pregnancy.. GBS testing.. blood glucose testing.. blood tests for anemia and other issues.. an ultrasound.. etc.

      • April 28, 2014 at 5:56 pm #

        You drive her crazy because people like you reject her advice for no good reason and then blame her when bad things happen because you rejected her advice.

        No doctor expects that people will believe hir just because ze is the doctor, not anymore. But they do expect that if they say something informed by their best medical opinion, their patient will listen and not reject it because they don’t want to!

        • Hush
          April 28, 2014 at 5:59 pm #

          Okay, what part of what I just said was not clear? I rejected whose advice?

          • Trulyunbelievable2020
            April 28, 2014 at 6:00 pm #

            That’s a fair point, Hush. You’re not saying that you’d make such batshit crazy choices. You’re merely placing the blame for those who do where it belongs– health care providers!

          • Renee Martin
            April 28, 2014 at 9:15 pm #

            SHE CHOSE. This was NOT her HCP’s fault at all.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 10:37 pm #

            So the CNM was a pretend health care provider..?

          • areawomanpdx
            April 28, 2014 at 11:00 pm #

            The CNM had an obligation to tell her what she wanted to do was too dangerous for her to participate in as a medical care professional and refer her to a mental health provider. She should not have taken this woman on as a patient and given her dangerous advice. IMO, that is malpractice. No doubt the woman would have continued to provider-shop and found a CPM to take her on or attempted an unassisted birth. That wouldn’t have changed the outcome, but at least she doesn’t have a dead baby on her conscience and probably her license. OR, the woman might have said, “Huh, four different providers have told me that what I want is too dangerous. Maybe they’re right.”

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 5:44 pm #

            In this scenario? Yes. Her willingness to take on this case proves she has no business caring for pregnant women AT ALL and needs to take up a different line of work.

            She didn’t make a simple mistake like miscalculating a drug dose, accidentally nicking the baby during a C-section – she deliberately 100% ignored all her training and the recommendations of multiple OBs and MFMs. She is the epitome of a pretend health care provider.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020
            April 28, 2014 at 11:08 pm #

            I know. I was being sarcastic.

          • April 28, 2014 at 6:01 pm #

            Examples, and I have edited it to make it more clear.

            Basically, if you behaved like this mother you are defending so adamantly, you would go to PCD, she would give you advice and tell you how to prevent bad things, you would reject that advice for FSM only knows what reasons, bad things would happen, and you would blame PCD for … something. You don’t understand why that make make her a little upset?

            You rejected medical advice. You chose to risk letting bad things happen that you were warned about. Therefore you bear the blame for the bad outcome. PCD (our stand-in for the medical establishment as a whole) bears zero blame or responsibility for a bad outcome she tried to prevent in every way she could.

          • AllieFoyle
            April 28, 2014 at 6:06 pm #

            Your entire argument is not clear. You’re blaming and smearing an entire class of hard-working, caring professionals because some woman believed that they would force her to do something for her own good to safe her life and her son’s. Well, they didn’t and he died. But it’s still their fault. Somehow.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 10:07 pm #

            I am blaming doctors in general for taking on such a NASTY REPUTATION and for a reason! They –have– been known to abdicate responsibility and claim “policy”, when really they were being lazy assholes or perverts. It’s not that hard. Not everyone who comes into contact with med pros has an even okay experience with it. It can color how you view a profession.. maybe not rightly.. but it can. If you have a med pro lie to you a few times or take a lazy route and be totally wrong (both my experiences) then you start to wonder when are the lies and when is the truth?? Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields.. and hostility.. and retaliatory over-medicalization. It’s not like they are making it all up. I am not making up either what happened with my blood pressure and the doctor who was sexually harassing me nor am I making up the home birth CNM that left my home with me in no state to have been left there without a medical professional present. It’s really not complicated. I don’t, for one second, believe the kakameme version of the story that the golden hearted doctors wanted nothing but to protect the poor baby and mother. Nope. Don’t believe it. You’d have to prove it.

          • Karen in SC
            April 28, 2014 at 10:23 pm #

            No one is saying you are making up your experience.

            I am saying that giving informed consent and stating the risks is NOT crying wolf. A risk exists – it is NOT zero. If the baby is delivered healthy that is a good outcome!! It does NOT mean the doctor lied. FFS

            You think that Griffin’s mother’s doctors LIED? about a clearly high risk birth??? What medical school did you attend?

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 10:49 pm #

            They DO cry wolf, though, was my point. I didn’t say those particular doctors did.

          • C T
            April 28, 2014 at 10:52 pm #

            Some cops are corrupt, too. So I’m just going to ignore the flashing lights behind me because I have reason to distrust cops. That’s going to end well.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 10:53 pm #

            Your argument is just weird.

          • C T
            April 28, 2014 at 11:06 pm #

            I will draw the lines for you.
            You say “some doctors lie and threaten, destroying trust in doctors as a whole.” My analogy is “some cops are corrupt, destroying trust in police as a whole.”
            Rational thinking people accept that there are bad eggs in any profession or career, but that doesn’t diminish the knowledge, tools, or authority (be it science-backed or state-granted) of the good ones.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:31 pm #

            Some people do deeply distrust the police.. as a whole… Are doctors going to start pepper spraying unruly patients who don’t consent?

          • birthbuddy
            April 29, 2014 at 4:05 am #

            And this argument isn’t weird?

          • Young CC Prof
            April 28, 2014 at 11:07 pm #

            I’m not saying that doctors never cry wolf. However, here’s another scenario that’s more common.

            Doctor says, “I strongly recommend this treatment, if you don’t take it, there is a 50% chance you will die of this condition you have.”

            Most patients say yes, a smaller number say no because they think they know better. Vast majority of those who do the treatment recover and go on with their lives, a few tragically die despite treatment.

            Of those who don’t treat, 50% die and 50% recover. Those who recover say, “Ha! That doctor was just crying wolf! I didn’t need treatment at all!” Then they brag about their natural recovery on the Internet.

            The other 50%, well, there’s no wifi six feet under, and their voices go unheard.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:33 pm #

            I understand that sometimes people do not weigh things risk wise appropriately. Obviously this was one of those scenarios. However, I was trying to point to why it was weighed inappropriately and don’t think doctors are completely innocent in that light.

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:38 pm #

            This woman had more warning than most. If an unsuspecting primip loses her baby to an idiotic CPM because she happened to watch BoBB after she got pregnant, I have some sympathy for her.

            Not this woman. This “invincible control freak” was bound and determined to ignore ALL advice given to her – innocent or guilty doctor be damned.

            I feel sorry for her baby and her daughters.

            Doctors share exactly ZERO blame in this baby’s death.

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:39 pm #

            That is your opinion. I disagree.

          • Durango
            April 29, 2014 at 9:07 am #

            Your tack is that because there have always been bad doctors in the world and women have historically been disenfranchised this woman acted understandably?

            If that is truly what you believe, how do you think an individual doctor should behave? No matter how good they are, no matter how empathetic they are, no matter how well-intentioned they are, you blame them for patients’ incredibly risky decisions. They can never overcome that, apparently, without supporting patients to do whatever tomfoolery they want to do.

            Fortunately, outside your circle of friends, the people with your point of view are few.

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 12:39 am #

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields…and hostility…and retaliatory over-medicalization.”

            Cite please. Otherwise, I’ll take that statement with a grain of salt. I’d believe isolated cases, but there are isolated cases of lots of things. Overwhelmingly, though? I doubt it.

          • Maria
            April 29, 2014 at 12:41 am #

            I would take that statement with a whole bucket of salt.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 1:03 am #

            In my circle of women, overwhelmingly, this is totally true. I don’t know about women at large. Could be “isolated” but … I believe there was a study out not long ago that was reference to birth trauma / PTSD / trauma reaction and a good chunk of women not just a tiny swath of them reported feeling trauma reactions and it wasn’t even usually because of danger it was often because they were not kept informed and not kept in the loop with decision making… so they felt powerless.. not exactly gaining consent is it if women are excluded and powerless?

          • guest
            April 29, 2014 at 1:13 am #

            I think that consent procedures and patient participation could be improved. Sure. But this woman had months to wrap her head around hospital procedures. I mean, this is just a bad case for your examples. It sounds like she was informed consented up the wazoo.

            As to trauma, please do cite whatever you’re talking about. Because I definitely felt traumatized by my last birth, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the hospital staff. Birth is hard, painful, you can lose a lot of blood even in a “normal” birth, crashing hormones. I found the staff to be respectful and helpful, but the birth itself was incredibly traumatic.

          • Young CC Prof
            April 29, 2014 at 1:23 am #

            Your circle may be self-selected, or it may be perpetuating a particular type of narrative while women in another social circle may tell a different type of narrative about nearly identical experiences.

            Let me know if you can find that study, though, I’d be curious.

          • Siri
            April 29, 2014 at 6:15 am #

            I would guess that this says more about your circle than about women’s perceptions in general. I bet many of you go into any encounter with a doctor EXPECTING to feel very negative, and I also bet that you get a much more positive response from your friends when you criticise medical care than if you were to praise your doctor. Self-fulfilling prophesy. And what is ‘retaliatory over-medicalization’? Sounds like an item straight out of the Paranoiac’s Compendium.

          • Mariana Baca
            April 29, 2014 at 2:28 am #

            I’m sorry you had a medical provider sexually harrass you. That is terrible and hopefully disciplinary actions can be taken against that doctor.

            But you do see how you might be too biased to be making any determinations about the whole medical field by claiming they are all lazy assholes and perverts? A homebirth attendant left you, your friend died in a homebirth, yet you are blaming the hospitals and overmedicalization or catastrophes that happened outside of the hospital without doctors. It seems like you don’t trust anyone who is in any medical field at this point. That sounds like a scary place to be.

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 2:38 am #

            He has moved to another state and avoided it. Well I am not judge and juror anyway, it’s just my opinion. I’ve held it for a while that they (the medical establishment) are rather into cronyism and full of things that are in the interest of money and not in the interest of humans. I actually don’t trust anyone in the medical field anymore.. home birth midwives.. doctors.. any of them. I don’t know what it disqualifies me for? I cannot have an opinion?

          • Mariana Baca
            April 29, 2014 at 11:43 am #

            You can have an opinion. I’m just saying you should be aware that your position of distrust for all practitioners is unusual and very biased. It is worth considering whether there might be a flaw in your logic given your strong emotions on this issue.

            But unless you think women should give birth unassisted, a woman has to ultimately trust someone in order to give birth with an attendant and receive medical care. Even if she decides to “do the research herself”, she is placing her trust on the people who wrote the research, which tend to be doctors, too. ACOG is a bunch of doctors, too.

          • Guesteleh
            April 29, 2014 at 12:06 pm #

            Hush, I’m very sorry you were abused and that your friend died. Abuse by medical personnel does happen. I’ve seen it happen. A hospital in my city was deaccredited because of decades of abuse and patients needlessly dying. I knew medical students who rotated through the hospital and they described seeing babies screaming in cribs for hours being ignored by the nursing staff.

            But there are also some amazing practitioners out there making huge sacrifices to deliver great care. My son had to go to the emergency room last year and he was taken to a county hospital that mostly serves a Medicaid population. Everyone we encountered was amazingly kind and not just to us. My son shared a room with a girl from a poor black family and the hospital staff treated them with respect and compassion.

            I hope that you are able to eventually connect with some of the good providers and learn to trust and heal. I know it’s a difficult journey but there are good people out there and I hope you find them.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020
            April 29, 2014 at 7:49 am #

            “I don’t, for one second, believe the kakameme version of the story that the golden hearted doctors wanted nothing but to protect the poor baby and mother.”

            No. Clearly they wanted money. They saw this woman and said, “Hey, I bet we can trick her into all sorts of interventions and make a mint!” Or perhaps they were “perverts” (to quote one of your previous posts) who just get off on a nice incision.

          • PrimaryCareDoc
            April 29, 2014 at 7:58 am #

            Or just lazy. That’s why they all refused to save her life when she came in bleeding out.

            Oh, wait.

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 8:07 am #

            Reading some of Hush’s comments, I feel for doctors and other medical professionals. Years upon years of schooling, insane hours as residents, paying thousands and thousands of dollars for malpractice insurance every year, keeping up with latest medical technology, keeping up with policies, and then actually caring for patients of all different personalities, quirks, religions (and trying to remember what groups are okay with what), and trying to individualize care. And then being accused of being perverts and the like. Ouch.

            Wonder what other broad strokes Hush paints… there are some abusive moms and dads out there. Therefore, every mother and father in this country must be abusive. Makes sense, right?

          • OBPI Mama
            April 29, 2014 at 8:11 am #

            I am so sorry for your experiences! I hope you filed reports.

            Do you trust moms and dads? You paint with such broad brushes that it makes me wonder… I grew up with foster siblings. who had horrible, abusive parents. So there are abusive, mean parents in this world. By your rationing, all moms and dads are abusive and mean and horrible. We shouldn’t trust any of them.

            Same with teachers and pastors. There are some rotten ones. Are they all rotten and out for money, or whatever?

            It seems like a hard life to be distrusting with everyone.

          • ngozi
            May 1, 2014 at 11:53 am #

            Exactly!!

          • fiftyfifty1
            April 29, 2014 at 9:21 am #

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields.. ”

            Citation please. Because at least in OB care in the U.S. women *overwhelmingly* report that they are pleased with the care they received.

          • Stacy21629
            April 29, 2014 at 5:42 pm #

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital”
            Actually, no. In nationwide surveys something like 75% of women report that they are satisfied with their birth experience. I can’t find the actual study right now but it’s far more reputable than “my friends say”.

          • Ihateslugs
            April 29, 2014 at 7:50 pm #

            Wow! You are really something…I am so offended by you that for once in my life, I am speechless. I am a pediatrician and my husband is a surgeon, and many of our friends are physicians as well. In thinking of us, as well as our many colleagues, I cannot think of one “lazy asshole” or “pervert.” Rather, we are individuals who have devoted a SIGNIFICANT portion of our lives to caring for other people. You have no idea… Someday, you are really going to need one of us, and maybe then you’ll realize just how wrong you are.

          • ngozi
            May 1, 2014 at 11:52 am #

            There are some bad physicans and bad things happen at hospitals. But just like everything else, you find bad people in all professions. I have had bad experiences with my local hospital and doctors there, but that doesn’t mean that every hospital and every doctor everywhere is like that. I don’t understand people who think like that.

        • PrimaryCareDoc
          April 28, 2014 at 6:56 pm #

          I’m just going to follow you around all day nodding, Feminerd.

        • Hush
          April 28, 2014 at 11:40 pm #

          “People like you” people like what precisely? What sort of person am I?

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:42 pm #

            Someone that values a mother’s complete and total autonomy over a baby’s life and blames doctors for every stupid decision patients make.

            among other things…

          • Hush
            April 28, 2014 at 11:49 pm #

            The first bit of sentence well yes. Damn right I value female autonomy over babies. Female autonomy after all is what is in the best interest of babies and don’t you forget that for a second. Women are not brood mares who should be put to sleep if the baby is worth more than her in blood but the pregnancy will kill her. Also, I do not blame doctors for the entire thing. I said that the medical profession has a hand or a toe in these type of outcomes because they had a hand themselves in creating a situation where women are deeply distrustful even outside of the deeply religious bunches.

          • sofrustrated
            April 28, 2014 at 11:59 pm #

            Well we may not change your mind, but believing that it’s 100% always no questions asked right for a woman to make a STUPID decision that ends in the death of her child simply because it’s her autonomous right to do so…and then blaming the doctors…well that’s what makes you “people like you”.

            CPMs and homebirth midwives go out of their way in “creating a situation where women are deeply distrustful” – that’s all that BoBB was. Purposefully creating distrust.

            Do you decry Ricki Lake and BoBB?

          • Hush
            April 29, 2014 at 12:04 am #

            I have no idea what you are even referring to, so I will look it up.

          • sofrustrated
            April 29, 2014 at 12:07 am #

            The Business of Being Born.

            2 hours of a washed up talk show host inciting terror in t