Suffer the unvaccinated little children!

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There is so much suffering in the world, and sadly, so much of it falls on small children … victims of earthquakes, famines, genocide and war.

But the suffering that angers me the most is that visited on small children by the selfishness of their parents. Such suffering comes in many different forms but can ultimately be traced back to the narcissism of mothers and fathers who think that fulfilling their own needs — whether that is a need to vent their anger, exercise their fists or bolster their fragile self esteem — is more important than meeting the needs of the children who depend on them for everything.
[pullquote align=”right” color=”#555555″] He was genuinely terrified each and every time he woke from sleep without breath.[/pullquote]

Case in point:

Heather Dexter proudly boasts about the medical neglect of her children on Like Minded Mamas. Not only is she unrepentant about the horror that she visited on them, she proud of it!

Like Minded Mamas

What happened?

It’s been a year. Mid-October 2014 was a game changer for three tiny immune systems.

My oldest, Madilyn at this time was 6.5 years old…

Lucien, my second, … is the best hugger and sweetest cuddler that I know…

Emilia, my youngest, at this time was 9 months old. Millie, as we affectionately call her, was just beginning to gain her personality and figure out who she is as a little person…

How did Heather “change the game” for her children’s immune systems? Not by gently creating immunity to pertussis (whooping cough) with a vaccine. No, no vaccines for Heather’s kids. She wanted only natural immunity for them, so she let them get deathly ill with whooping cough.

The totally avoidable horror and suffering went on for more than 6 months!!

You can read the details in the link webcache of the post. I’ll just hit the highlights:

During the night, Lucien would cough until he barfed up mucus, proceeded by crying and screaming fits. He was genuinely terrified each and every time he woke from sleep without breath. At this point in time my husband, and I were now waking every 30-90 minutes through the night to clean up after or console one of two coughing, puking, screaming children…

And:

Madilyn had been coughing for 60+ days. We hadn’t slept longer than 2 hours in months. UGGGGGH. Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms. How I just wanted to sleep for six hours straight for just one night, it would have been miraculous. The term “walking dead” described the new me.

Her husband feared the children were going to die:

It was during this time, the first week in December that my husband, Scott, sat me down, looked me in the eyes and said, “I trust you, but I am scared that one of our kids is going to die. You know it is just a matter of time before Millie develops whatever it is that Madilyn and Lucien have. She’s only 9 months old. It’s going to be bad, Heather. (my emphasis)

Heather could have alleviated her children’s suffering AT ANY TIME during these 6 months. All she had to do was to take them to a real doctor and get antibiotics. But, no, Heather’s self-image was on the line and it was all about Heather all the time.

Part of me felt blind-sided and hurt, unsupported and ready to blow…that was the exhausted me… However, I have learned that my truth does not belong to all of humanity. Each person is entitled to their beliefs and logic or training.

… I do believe their immune systems were built to handle this… They just haven’t been a whole lotta sick in their lives, babe! This is their time to gain immune stimulation.”

Heather relied on her “degree” from Google University:

Was I doing this to prove a point? What do my kids gain from true immunity? Why was I sooooooo opposed to putting them on antibiotics? This in itself is an entire new blog, but let me just give you some links to why antibiotics should be limited and not passed out like candy …

Ok…so hopefully if you found yourself saying, “What is she thinking?” … You’ve taken the time to watch or read some of the above listed links.

Heather’s father tried to reason with her and he hit the nail on the head:

During this time, however, I received a very stern “talking to” from my father. He’s a veterinarian and has been for just shy of 40 years. While holding Emilia, he said to me, “Heather, there is a time and place for every thing and the time to go get an antibiotic is now. It may be that your pride has got you confused… I would hate to see you make a poor choice with your children at the[ir] expense.”

But Heather’s pride was more important than her children’s suffering.

HOLY SHIT… What? Did he honestly believe I was sitting there doing nothing? Couldn’t he see I was taking all the care in the world trying to make this work and heal them naturally? My heart broke. Tears streamed down my face…

I called my mentor and the founder of my Naturopathy school to gain yet another naturopathic perspective. She had nothing but good things to say. She once again boosted my morale. It was all I needed to hold strong over the holiday season.

Now the baby got sick:

By mid-January, Madilyn was doing great. Lucien was turning the corner, for the better. He was now only coughing moderately throughout the day and waking only a couple times a night. But Emilia’s breathing had now reached the scary point. She was now coughing until she puked, often times turning purple in the process. This was followed by crying, which would cause the process to repeat itself until often times she would just fall asleep due to pure exhaustion.

Ultimately, everyone recovered so Heather could return to patting herself on the back fulltime.

Look at how she had suffered to “protect” her children:

It took a good 120-150 days from the start of the coughing for each of them to eliminate the bronchial damage and lung weakness caused by the bacterial infection, Pertussis. We spent hundreds of dollars on natural health products and consultations with various Naturopathic Professionals. It was a living HELL. Every day. It had an intense effect on my marriage and relationship with my husband. It caused me to question everything I knew about Natural Health.

Heather was indeed the hero of her own story:

We made it through using only natural remedies. Seeking no medical attention. We did it. My children developed REAL and TRUE immunity from being exposed to this bacteria and fighting it off naturally. It has been my biggest challenge to date as a mother. This mother conquered. (my emphasis)

And just in case you hadn’t already reached the obvious conclusion that Heather is an idiot, she offered this to make it crystal clear:

I just want you to ask yourself… How did people make it through for thousands of years? How did they get through the Spanish Influenza, the Black Plague, fevers and other ailments?

Made it through?

More people died of the Spanish flu than died in WWI. Two-thirds of the population did NOT make it through the Black Death. Both were holocausts that took the lives of tens of millions.

Heather was so proud of herself, but then it turned out that the rest of the world was not nearly so impressed. They considered what she had done to be child abuse, and it was a form of child abuse known as medical neglect.

Heather and colleagues shut down their blog and Facebook page and sent out this message to their supporters.

Just in case you thought anti-vax was about anything other than mothers’ ego, they set us straight:

Recently, we shared a heart-felt story with you on Heather’s journey to healing her kiddos whooping cough naturally. We know and trust that all of our experiences are lessons. And the whole premise of this blog is to share these hard lessons, these times in stormy weather, with you dear reader. It wasn’t easy for Heather to write that post, but she did grounded in hope that it would empower you in times of similar situations.

Immediately, we received an outpour of support and love. Readers thanked us for being so transparent and honoring a mother’s intuition and our beautiful immune systems. This story without a doubt touched the hearts of many…

Then last week, the story found itself in the hands of those who are out to destruct. Threat after threat has made its way into this window of our lives. While we are aware that this is all part of the territory of speaking our truths, our system wasn’t ready to withstand the ambush of attacks.

Heather and her buddies have learned nothing!

One thing is for sure. We know that our voice is needed now more than ever. In fact, this experience has shown us that we need to be even louder.

The sad truth is that Heather could have spared her children MONTHS OF AGONY. If she had immunized her children against whooping cough the odds are very high that they wouldn’t have got whooping cough in the first place. Heather could have shortened the MONTHS OF AGONY. She could have let real medical professionals treat them with antibiotics. But no, Heather forced them to cough until they vomited and screamed, forced them to endure lung damage that may be permanent, and for what? For “natural immunity.” And how does this benefit Madilyn, Lucien and Millie. Heather never tells us.

But it did bolster Heather’s self-esteem and what’s 6 months of 3 small children coughing, vomiting, and screaming compared to that?

1,140 Responses to “Suffer the unvaccinated little children!”

  1. Dr Kitty
    December 1, 2015 at 4:17 pm #

    On world AIDS day, Hoter, how do you feel about HIV?

    Is there a retrovirus transmitted in body fluids which leads to CD4 depletion, immunodeficiency and death from infection or cancer? Or is HIV/AIDS something else entirely?

    Is this retrovirus kept in check by antiretroviral medication, to the point where it becomes undetectable in body fluids?

    Are antiretroviral medications the reason why people with HIV can now live normal lifespans and never develop AIDS?

    Come on, bring the crazy, explain how Western Medicine has got HIV/AIDS all wrong, and the massive fall in AIDS related deaths is due to lifestyle changes and better diet, or better yet that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS at all, I dare you.

    • Roadstergal
      December 1, 2015 at 4:53 pm #

      Oh, I’m sure Hotor is a big fan of Christine Maggoire, Peter Duesberg, Mattias Rath, and Thabo Mbeki.

    • Hoter
      December 2, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

      Considering we all know HIV and AIDS related syndromes are all to do with lifestyle and diet you have answered your own question.

      • Nick Sanders
        December 6, 2015 at 1:19 am #

        It’s why all those AIDS denialists who cleaned up their lifestyles and refused antiretrovirals outlived all their peers who took them. Oh, wait…

  2. Hoter
    December 1, 2015 at 10:53 am #

    You need to balance this with all the atopic kids and their parents coping with steroids, inhalers and epi pens. Their madness is doctor sanctioned, that little patch of eczema that the cream pushed them down the atopic highway to hell.

    • Dr Kitty
      December 1, 2015 at 11:32 am #

      ???
      Could you reframe that into something coherent please?
      You know emollients are first line for eczema, not steroids. I don’t much care if you use raw organic coconut oil or the lotion of your choice as long as you use it liberally and often.
      Atopy is largely genetic.

      • Azuran
        December 1, 2015 at 12:52 pm #

        Oh, so that’s how it work. You first get vaccinated. Then you get eczema. The evil doctor then prescribes some cream. Putting in on will give you allergy, so they then prescribe you cortisone or inhaler and before you know it you become severely allergic to everything and needs an epipen. which, of course, causes autism!!!

        • Hoter
          December 2, 2015 at 6:57 pm #

          Well, sarcasm has got you and epiphany, well done, just in time for xmas

          • Azuran
            December 2, 2015 at 10:32 pm #

            Oh so you also actually believe vaccine cause autism? Wow. Really, that’s so original.

      • Hoter
        December 2, 2015 at 6:56 pm #

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110651/
        C section babies are 30% more likely to be atopic. That sort of blows your medical anecdote about eczema being genetic out of the water. By suppressing the skin presentation you are pushing the metabolite into the viscera, that is the atopic pathway dunce.

  3. carbonUnit
    November 10, 2015 at 3:59 pm #

    Dexter has gotten herself on TV as a “naturopathic doctor”. Although this story seems benign (other than giving credibility to naturopaths), I’m concerned that the pregnant reporter has bought into mommy doc/natural woo. Interesting that a Grand Rapids naturopath caught the attention of a reporter in Indianapolis.
    http://cbs4indy.com/2015/09/23/making-your-own-baby-food-what-the-heck-is-involved/

    • Katia
      November 11, 2015 at 2:51 pm #

      Oh, gag me!

      Heather was all over the internet. A reporter looking for confirmation bias would jump at the chance. After all, immunizations are distasteful. I mean who likes seeing kids get them? Not the child, not the parents, not the nurse who has to give them.

      • Daleth
        November 11, 2015 at 2:56 pm #

        Someone needs to send that reporter a link to what Dexter wrote, and this post.

        • Katia
          November 11, 2015 at 3:11 pm #

          She probably won’t care. Anything to avoid vaccines!

          • carbonUnit
            November 11, 2015 at 3:22 pm #

            She’s probably bought in, but maybe this will be the bucket of cold water that snaps her out of it. Though unlikely, the best case scenario would be for her to become outraged and do some more reporting on Heather Dexter.

        • carbonUnit
          November 11, 2015 at 3:12 pm #

          The news department management needs to know too, so they reign in reporters that might promote quacks/quackery in the future, especially the dangerous ones. There’s a news department e-mail address on this page: http://cbs4indy.com/contact/ It would probably be good if more than one of us contacts them. 😉 Presumably there are social media orifices that could be hit too.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          November 12, 2015 at 10:36 am #

          Yeah, you gotta figure. Someone who has the audacity to advertise a “Guide to Stay Healthy All Year Long” and “Keep Your Family From Getting Sick” who’s kids had almost 6 months of whooping cough? I mean, the irony writes itself…

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:10 am #

            You wanna see sick. Go to a doctor’s waiting room and hang lose for the day. These are people who get meds for everything.

          • Wren
            December 1, 2015 at 8:32 am #

            You mean people who are sick go to the doctor? No way!

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 11:56 am #

            Even worse, some take meds to get better.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      November 12, 2015 at 10:00 am #

      Not to mention what a pregnant reporter could pick up hanging around Dexter and her unvaccinated kids. What if one of them is now developing “natural immunity” to rubella? Sending a pregnant woman to report on a woo meister seems to me about as sensible as sending a woman to report on the Taliban: Just not safe for her.

      • carbonUnit
        November 12, 2015 at 10:05 am #

        The worst thing she could pick up and spread is a set of dangerous beliefs.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          November 12, 2015 at 10:59 am #

          You’re right in the long run, but her organization also sent her into immediate physical danger. If she picks up rubella or a couple of other vaccine preventable conditions her fetus could take teratogenic damage. Why would her employer send her there or even let her go there? Lawsuit city if something happens!

          • carbonUnit
            November 12, 2015 at 11:16 am #

            Yes, Nichole Pence interviewing Heather could be like taking your kids into a wild dog enclosure. Without having seen her other stories, I suspect the reporter has naturalistic leanings and selected Heather. If there’s damage, Pence did this to herself. I do hope someone manages to contact her. She does have contact info on her page, but it’s all social media and I have no SM accounts. Her web page loads as a blank page on my browser – she’s either used fancy crap I have disabled or is just stupid…

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:09 am #

            Wow, you are so paranoid, where on earth did you get these ideas?

          • carbonUnit
            November 13, 2015 at 9:53 am #

            You might be right after all. The news director, Kerri Cavanaugh, is from Grand Rapids. Also anchor Tim Doty. They could be the ones who put her onto WooBabe Dexter. Or not…

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:08 am #

            That is septic vaccine paranoia. If she is health, there is no risk. Who told you otherwise?

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone
            December 1, 2015 at 12:47 pm #

            Oh really! tell that to actress Gene Tierney she was volunteering at the Stage Door Canteen in 1943 while pregnant, when a fan with German measles, who had broken quarantine, insisted on meeting her. She contracted German measles and her daughter was born deaf and severely mentally disabled. Rubella is known to be especially dangerous for a fetus in utero.

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 1:01 pm #

            So, being healthy prevents everything? Do you actually really know ANYONE who has never been sick even once before? You never had a runny nose? Never got a cold? Never had a fever? Never threw up? never had diarrhea? Never had a rash anywhere? Never had otitis? Sore throat? Pink eye?

            Sure, being healthy helps. It will help you fight the infection, it will lower your risk of developing complications, but it’s not a magical cure. Healthy people can still die from diseases. Healthy pregnant mothers can still have miscarriage or severely disabled baby if they are infected by some diseases, even if they only develop light symptoms.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            December 1, 2015 at 1:17 pm #

            I’m really trying to figure out how that’s supposed to work myself.

            How did my great-great grandparents’ first child die from Black Small Pox at only a few weeks old when this child was exclusively breastfed, her mother didn’t ingest GMOs, no one in the family had ever been vaccinated, and to top it off neither parent smoked, never drank (no risk of prenatal alcohol exposure at any time), and since at least the mid 1800s nearly every family members’ diet consisted mostly of cereal grains, lots of fruits and vegetables, potatoes that were limited by what stayed good in the root cella during winter, and small portions of meat as directed by the religion they followed?

            Along with that, how did this child’s mother die of cancer in only her mid-forties despite the above stated lifestyle choices and being extremely physically active her entire life?

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            December 1, 2015 at 5:25 pm #

            My younger sister is vegan, eats gluten free, doesn’t drink and doesn’t smoke. Her diet would be considered by most to be far healthier than mine. She probably does slightly more exercise than me. She has had the same childhood vaccines as me but hasn’t had vaccines against hep B, hep A and typhoid whereas I have. And yet she still gets several more viral URTIs per year than I do and is being investigated for possible psoriatic arthritis which I don’t have.

            But according to Hoter, all disease is caused by poor diet and lifestyle.

        • Roadstergal
          November 16, 2015 at 12:10 pm #

          “The only thing more dangerous than an idea is a belief. And by ‘dangerous,’ I don’t mean ‘thought-provoking,’ I mean ‘might get people killed’.” -Sarah Vowell, The Wordy Shipmates

          (Although, after noting the diseases brought by Europeans (all VPD) that utterly demolished the native populations of the Americas, she reconsiders – “Maybe the most dangerous thing is a germ.”)

          • carbonUnit
            November 16, 2015 at 12:18 pm #

            We have a twofer here. The dangerous idea helps spread the dangerous germ.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:07 am #

            The Indians adopted the lifestyles, alcohol, shit food and more.

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 11:56 am #

            Come on, this guy _has_ to be a Poe.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            December 1, 2015 at 12:19 pm #

            Smallpox was caused by alcohol and poor diet? Must be why it’s still running rampant!

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 12:21 pm #

            With all of the pies, buttered mashed potatoes, chocolate, and alcohol I consumed over Thanksgiving, I actually got smallpox. But I’ve been eating lean since then, and it cleared right up.

          • Chant de la Mer
            December 1, 2015 at 4:53 pm #

            Excuse me but Indians refers to the people that live on the subcontinent India. Please use the correct nomenclature when referring to Native American/Alaskans in the USA.

        • Hoter
          December 1, 2015 at 6:06 am #

          What, like there is no ‘cure’ for arthritis?

      • Hoter
        December 1, 2015 at 6:04 am #

        Bout as sensible as sending an arthritic person to a doctor for VIOXX
        http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

        Accept the pregnant reporter didn’t get ill, the chances were virtually nil. But VIOXX was a ‘dead’ cert for the box for the 500,000 Americans who died taking it, on advice from their regular doctor. Do they feel no shame?

        • Andrew Lazarus
          December 21, 2015 at 7:24 pm #

          LOL, the chances of getting rubella are virtually nil because almost everyone vaccinated against it. Makes life easier for the free-riders.

          The last rubella epidemic in the USA caused more deformed babies born than thalidomide worldwide.

          • Reality022
            December 21, 2015 at 7:43 pm #

            North and South America have been declared rubella free since April 2015, no thanks to the anti-vaccine cultitsts:

            paho(dot)org/us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135%3Aamericas-region-free-of-rubella&lang=en
            “Americas region is declared the world’s first to eliminate rubella

            Historic achievement follows similar “firsts” against smallpox in 1971 and polio in 1994

            Washington, D.C., 29 April 2015 (PAHO/WHO) — The Americas region has become the first in the world to be declared free of endemic transmission of rubella, a contagious viral disease that can cause multiple birth defects as well as fetal death when contracted by women during pregnancy.”

            It is still endemic in the rest of the world so we must maintain vaccine vigilance.

    • Hoter
      December 1, 2015 at 6:03 am #

      http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed
      Do you think we should try and get a ‘proper doctor’ on TV that prescribed VIOXX and ask him why he did it and does he feel responsible for some of those 500,000 deaths it caused, I mean that is some mortality pile right – if it was a naturopath, and it wasn’t, you’d be calling for the death penalty, right.

      • moto_librarian
        December 1, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

        So you do know that Vioxx was removed from the market, right?

  4. Hoter
    November 7, 2015 at 8:15 pm #

    “More people died of the Spanish flu than died in WWI. Two-thirds of the
    population did NOT make it through the Black Death. Both were holocausts
    that took the lives of tens of millions.” modern medical myths only partly told

    You forgot to mention that the ones who mainly died were given large doses of aspirin between 5g and 30g and this was the major factor behind the devastating lung odema. Another medical catastrophe pretending to be a natural disaster.

    • Clorinda Madsen
      November 7, 2015 at 10:48 pm #

      You need to clarify your comment and cite your sources. The two-thirds of the population who died in the Black Death died because of the aspirin they were given? Every one of those who died of the Spanish flu were given mega doses of aspirin? Even if aspirin did contribute to the deaths, can you blame people for trying to relieve the pain and other symptoms in an era before modern clinical trials and the stringent requirements? Or even on a disease that acted in a way that no other flu had acted before?

      • Azuran
        November 7, 2015 at 11:04 pm #

        Gotta love the logic of those people.
        One person publish an actually interesting studies about how a small proportion of people who died of spanish flu, 100 years ago, might have died becayse they were maybe prescribed a dangerous dosage of aspirin (because it was medicine from freaking 100 years ago, duh) And in this person’s mind it become: 2/3rd of the world’s population were killed by evil doctor giving toxic doses of aspirin on purpose because medecine is EVIL!!!

        • Sarah
          November 10, 2015 at 8:38 am #

          It was actually because they were all given c-sections.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:14 am #

            it’s because they voted for Obama

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 6:30 am #

            It’s because they didn’t believe hard enough in homeopathy.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 10:45 am #

            No they believed in medical consensus, which is medical anecdote rebranded. Medical consensus gave us VIOXX, and it killed 500,000 Americans. Way to go doco.

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 11:24 am #

            Every time you say something completely hatstand, a SOB commentator books their kid in for another vaccine.

          • Sue
            December 1, 2015 at 11:18 pm #

            Yessss!

          • Hoter
            December 2, 2015 at 6:58 pm #

            That’s good news for the son of a bitch commentator then. The more that do that, the better for natural selection.

          • Sarah
            December 3, 2015 at 3:23 am #

            Your first sentence was right. It’s very good news both for the commentators and those who are unvaccinated. You’re welcome, btw.

          • Hoter
            December 4, 2015 at 2:02 pm #

            Considering most of you are supposed to be medical professionals, the level of your discussion is more likely to make people think twice about asking for your opinion.

          • Sarah
            December 4, 2015 at 2:22 pm #

            Not people, just preppers.

          • Nick Sanders
            December 6, 2015 at 1:24 am #

            Your posts could be the basis for a “misused-word-a-day” calendar, and you want insult other people’s discussion skills?

          • PrimaryCareDoc
            December 1, 2015 at 11:59 am #

            Vioxx killed half a million Americans? Citation, please.

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 12:28 pm #

            Sure, medicine make mistake and some people will abuse the system all the time.
            But as you can see, Vioxx was taken out of the market. (also, from all the info I can find about Vioxx, the actual number of victim is around 60 000 so you mind want to check your number) Medicine realized something was wrong and acted on it.
            Like I said many times, medicine is not perfect and will never be perfect. It does the best that it can with current available evidence. But modern medicine has saved way more lives than it killed. And those who died are not ‘killed on purpose’. Those are accidents, known complication to treatments, when those happens we learn from them and react accordingly. And yes, sometime those are due to an idiot who wanted to make money. But those idiots are found everywhere and will always be found everywhere.

            Should we stop making bridges or buildings because some guy in a company somewhere decided to cut corner and get cheaper materials and people dies as a result?
            Should we stop having police officers because some of them can be corrupted?
            Or close all the schools because some teachers are pedophiles?
            Should we stop making and using all cars because you can die in a car accident and because of the VW scandal?

            Of course not. Those things are not perfect, we know they aren’t and we know they will never be, but we are constantly working to make them better. Same thing with medicine. Overall, it saves way more lives than it kills and it is constantly adapting to try and reduce that number even more.

          • Azuran
            December 2, 2015 at 10:30 pm #

            So you refuse all proof of vaccination’s efficacy but accept: huh, less people died, must be vioxx’ as acceptable proof? Even if they guy who wrote this clearly said that it’s totally unproven and simply an hypothesis?
            The official number is still 60 000.
            So I shall answer to your unscientific journal article with another unscientific journal article:
            http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2012/05/30/500000_excess_deaths_from_vioxx_where
            So….what now?

            Still, you did not answer any of my question.
            If all of medicine is bad because of Vioxx. Then shouldn’t we all stop driving cars because of VW?

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 12:54 pm #

            True fact – the less you believe in homeopathy, the more powerful your belief is. It’s just science.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            December 1, 2015 at 10:35 am #

            Ah, there it is. Ultimate confirming comment.

      • Hoter
        December 1, 2015 at 6:14 am #

        black death/aspirin! Who wrote that? some septic shit spouting crap.

        • Wren
          December 1, 2015 at 8:35 am #

          That was you. Spouting crap sure does describe you well though.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 10:47 am #

            Here we see medical doctors’ logic, you can’t rub up an idea and discuss it. Is this why the GP only has 7 minutes to make a diagnosis? Any longer and they would get a headache.

          • Dr Kitty
            December 1, 2015 at 11:46 am #

            No pet, I have 10 minutes timetabled to take a history, perform an examination, come up with a differential diagnosis and a management plan, and discuss the plan with the patient, and write it all up in the notes.

            If the problem is earwax, 10 minutes is too long.
            If the problem is “I’m suicidal” it isn’t long enough.
            Usually the easy cases balance out the difficult ones and I only run about 20 minutes late.
            But I’m not a psychotherapist, I don’t send people away when their time is up, it takes as long as it takes.

          • Hoter
            December 2, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

            Stop winging. If you are stupid enough to think you can make a diagnosis in 10 minutes it goes someway to explaining why the so called proper doctor is fucking up the health of the planet. Thank you

          • Azuran
            December 2, 2015 at 10:55 pm #

            you really know nothing about medicine if you think having a diagnostic in less then 10 minutes is impossible.
            Can it take more than 10 minutes? Of course.
            Can I get a diagnostic in less time. Obviously. It all depends on what the illness is. And my patients cant even talk to tell me what’s wrong.

            You think it’s impossible because you know nothing about medicine and think everything is caused by bad posture and diet. You’d probably ask to see my posture and follow my diet to figure out why my arm broke in a car accident.

          • Who?
            December 3, 2015 at 12:02 am #

            Conveniently for Hoter a trip to the doctor is in order if someone gets an injury.

          • Nick Sanders
            December 3, 2015 at 12:31 am #

            For example, the last few middle ear infections I’ve had were diagnosed in less than 5 minutes. Granted, I knew what was wrong before I went in, but all the PA had to do was sick the scope in my ear, see how much it was bulging, and then check my nose and throat to see if it had spread.

            It’s funny, I am a usually overly sensitive to pain, but for whatever reason, ear infections cause me almost none. Once, a few years ago, she actually gasped “Doesn’t that hurt?!” when she looked at them. Apparently my eardrum were really stretched and discolored, but they didn’t hurt at all.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            December 3, 2015 at 1:08 am #

            When I sat my MRCP clinical exam, one of the stations was designed to simulate a clinic or GP visit. You had 10 minutes to do a targeted history and examination, come up with a management plan and explain the outcome to the patient. It was quite possible to do all this in 10 minutes.

          • demodocus
            December 1, 2015 at 1:10 pm #

            My kid’s ped stayed with us for 15 or 20 minutes at the kid’s 2 week check, because he was concerned whether my blues might be heading toward depression. My sister’s gp stayed with her 2 hours when she went into an emotional meltdown at the office. (she’d been under a lot of stress). It barely took that 10 minutes for the ped to diagnose urti in the kiddo at his last appointment, make sure the wheezing sound was all in his nose and not his lungs, and wrap up the usual 2 year check up.

          • Wren
            December 1, 2015 at 3:59 pm #

            Could someone please translate this for me? It is totally irrelevant to what I actually wrote, but Hoter seems to think it’s a meaningful response.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head
          December 1, 2015 at 12:23 pm #

          You implied that, then deleted your post when I called you out. You’re clearly a pillar of integrity!

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 12:57 pm #

            You can’t delete posts here, only anonymize them. It probably got deleted for him using a slur like “retarded” or some such.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            December 1, 2015 at 1:05 pm #

            Or it just got lost in this Bermuda Triangle of WTF comments as discus begins to buckle under the weight of them.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            December 1, 2015 at 2:24 pm #

            The comment was definitely deleted, there must have been something particularly offensive in it.

            Hotter, I take back my accusation of you deleting your own comment, but I’m amused at how you’re playing the innocent with regards to your own posts.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 3:19 pm #

            It might have been one of the downs slurs Hoer indulged in.

            Vulgar, vicious and wrong in both expression and fact.

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 5:44 pm #

            I don’t remember Hoter using Downs as a slur, probably because he’d have to admit genetic conditions exist that can’t be treated with diet and exercise. The one saying people had Downs was Lawrence.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 8:28 pm #

            My bad.

            Hotor has enough to be blamed for without adding anything extra.

    • Nick Sanders
      November 7, 2015 at 10:57 pm #

      Sources, please.

      • Hoter
        December 1, 2015 at 6:13 am #

        just get that damn vaccine

        • Nick Sanders
          December 1, 2015 at 12:50 pm #

          That’s not a source.

    • yugaya
      November 8, 2015 at 6:17 am #

      ” the ones who mainly died ( of Spanish flu and plague) were given large doses of aspirin”

      Wut?

      • SporkParade
        November 8, 2015 at 7:55 am #

        And how much willow bark did a Black Death sufferer need to take to get between 5 and 30 g of aspirin?

        • Azuran
          November 8, 2015 at 9:12 am #

          Probably willow bark tree enemas. 2-3 litters every hour.

      • Hoter
        November 8, 2015 at 4:21 pm #

        This is gonna be too hard to translate to someone who doesn’t really speak English. The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin – oh fuck I can’t be bothered. Look it up yourself you dense nird

        • yugaya
          November 8, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

          “The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin -”

          … and that killed those who “mainly died” during plague how exactly?

          Nice display of linguicism btw, it’s exactly what I expected from you.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head
          November 8, 2015 at 4:55 pm #

          Bayer created aspirin in 1897. The way your post is written makes it sound like large doses of aspirin were responsible for most of the deaths from “The Black Death”. So did you word your post that way because of ignorance or because of a poor grasp of English grammar? Or were you just deliberately trying to deceive?

        • Box of Salt
          November 8, 2015 at 6:09 pm #

          Just in case, this is Hoter;
          “oh fuck I can’t be bothered. Look it up yourself you dense nird”

          In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer, “Don’t write naughty words on walls if you can’t spell.”

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          November 11, 2015 at 5:20 am #

          The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin –

          This is a strange phrase, since it seems to imply that the writer thinks that Bayer is a drug rather than a drug company. I assume that they simply made a mistake and meant that The first licensed drug of the company Bayer was aspirin. However, that’s not even true. Bayer’s first pharma product was phenacetin.

    • Katia
      November 8, 2015 at 1:59 pm #

      Why is it you anti-vaxers can ALWAYS come up with some freaking lame excuse for why people died of these diseases. No, Hoter, that’s not why they died. The health care system of 1918 couldn’t keep them alive until they recovered, like it can most of the time today.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        November 9, 2015 at 9:52 am #

        They have to lie to themselves because deep down they know their ideas are completely untenable.

      • Hoter
        December 1, 2015 at 6:12 am #

        If you went to hospital, they killed you with aspirin.

        • Wren
          December 1, 2015 at 8:33 am #

          That was a common problem during the Black Death. All those hospitals handing out aspirin to everyone.

    • Maya Markova
      November 8, 2015 at 6:05 pm #

      In my country, Spanish flu took the lives of many thousands of villagers who had never seen aspirin in their lives.

      You have chosen the wrong blog to troll.

      • Hoter
        December 1, 2015 at 10:48 am #

        Nice anecdote Maya, that would make you around 100, what does it feel like to be 100. Or did someone tell you? That is a second hand anecdote – the kind the medics love.

    • Dr Kitty
      November 8, 2015 at 6:24 pm #

      I misread Hoter as Hodor.
      Then I read your comments.
      And realised Hodor talks more sense than you do.

      • Who?
        November 8, 2015 at 6:41 pm #

        Yes but Hoter seems to have far more afflictions to deal with than Hodor, who is a kind person who can think straight, even if he can’t always express himself clearly.

        • Chi
          November 8, 2015 at 6:46 pm #

          Just ignore them. They’re an anti-vax troll who goes by the handle medicalpeerreview on the SBM blog.

          • Who?
            November 8, 2015 at 7:16 pm #

            That guy? He’s just sad.

  5. Anna
    November 7, 2015 at 10:28 am #

    How can a parent claim that they want the best for her children and watch them suffer avoidable pains and discomfort ?Vaccination is protection.

  6. Sauron666
    November 7, 2015 at 6:14 am #

    This makes me see red. Sorry, in an organized society, there are some things you do for the common good. One of them is vaccinate your kids. Period.

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:08 am #

      Sorry, that is like saying if you live in Israel, ya gotta cut the end of your knob off to fit in. Some of use who have spend the time reading the fallacious evidence on vaccine efficacy have come to the rational conclusion that vaccination is bullshit. Menstruation.

      • Sarah
        November 7, 2015 at 9:44 am #

        Nobody who has spent time reading anything valid has come to that conclusion, actually.

        • sdsures
          November 7, 2015 at 2:43 pm #

          I’m Jewish, and I don’t live in Israel. One of the things Judaism prizes is critical thinking.

          What has menstruation got to do with anything?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 7, 2015 at 10:58 pm #

            It was a really bad pun on “period”.

          • sdsures
            November 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm #

            Ah. Thanks.

          • Sarah
            November 10, 2015 at 8:39 am #

            This one does seem to have a bit of a thing about Jews. I anticipate something about the Rothschilds and/or communism in the near future.

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 9:32 pm #

            Yeah, I started gearing up for that too when I saw that comment about cutting the end of your knob off…

          • sdsures
            November 12, 2015 at 1:51 pm #

            No replies yet?

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 12:56 pm #

            He’s doubling down on the Evil Vaccinating Circumcising Jewish Conspiracy. He and Lawrie _would_ get along famously, I think.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:18 am #

            does not having a foreskin help you think better?

          • Sue
            December 1, 2015 at 11:19 pm #

            I don’t have a foreskin, but my critical thinking ability seems better than yours. QED.

          • sdsures
            December 7, 2015 at 11:38 am #

            I wouldn’t know either way – I’m a lady. And you know darned well that having a foreskin or not has nothing to do with cognitive ability, so stop asking stupid questions.

        • Hoter
          December 1, 2015 at 6:17 am #

          The fanny batter looms like the fog before a storm

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 6:33 am #

            Your mum looms like the cock before a storm.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 6:39 am #

            Are you having a stroke?

            I’m sure if you are you won’t bother going to the doctor, after all it would be all your fault so you wouldn’t want anyone to help you out.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        November 9, 2015 at 9:54 am #

        If you cannot comprehend what you read in a comment section of a blog how can you comprehend a research paper?

      • Wren
        November 9, 2015 at 10:11 am #

        “Rational conclusion”? I’m not sure you understand that phrase. You certainly have not demonstrated it here.

      • Lala
        November 14, 2015 at 7:29 pm #

        Do you normally switch between speaking English, and then apparently being unable to form simple sentences? How many people use this account?

        And how, exactly, are you trying to tie menstruation to vaccination? Or is that some sort of weird exclamation at the end?

        • Hoter
          December 1, 2015 at 6:17 am #

          It is like wading through horse shit here – are you people regular doctors? If so, it explains why everyone is so ill.

    • Hoter
      December 1, 2015 at 6:15 am #

      Or cut off your foreskin – depends how organised your society is.

  7. guest
    November 6, 2015 at 10:33 pm #

    “Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms.”

    Such ignorance. I would be offended except she’s just so dumb. Look, I had twins and I know what sleeplessness feels like from the newborn period. One had colic. It was hell. I now have two beautiful sleepers. They are so good I try never to mention it unless asked, because I know how many other kids their age (three) *still* wake at least once a night. Mine don’t, unless they are sick.

    I don’t f—ing drug them. I did use cribs, which I suppose she might view as “locking” them in their room, but we were all in the same room for six months. And now they are completely mobile and out of cribs and there’s no lock on their door and they still sleep.

    You know what helps? THEY DON’T HAVE WHOOPING COUGH. They will wake at night when they have a cold or fever, gee, how surprising. But no, other people’s kids aren’t all drugged and locked in closets if their parents are getting a good night’s sleep.

  8. Jenny_from_da_Bloc
    November 6, 2015 at 3:16 pm #

    The worst part of this story is that she probably did not quarantine her kids and spread the illness to other poor children who were too young to be vaccinated or to the poor children of her groupies. Why waste money on enemas when you can pay a co-pay and get some anti-biotics? Maybe $200 total to save your children from suffering and putting the public at risk? That would only be too sensible for someone like Heather. If I was her father I would have absconded with her children to the ER for proper treatment, because she was medically neglecting her kids and torturing them with enemas, for 6 months to boost her ego. Those poor children.

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:09 am #

      Lots of probablys and maybes there Jenny, are you sure you don’t write for a medical peer reviewed journal.

      • moto_librarian
        November 7, 2015 at 9:50 am #

        And I suppose you do?

      • Nick Sanders
        November 7, 2015 at 10:59 pm #

        One is “lots”? Especially given that it was about a medicine price, which even the most informed wouldn’t be expected to know exactly off the top of their head.

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc
        November 8, 2015 at 5:59 pm #

        If her children were fighting pertussis for 6 months, did she keep them in the home and out of school for that time? Probably not. No, I don’t write for peer reviewed journals, but I work as an RT and have been seeing this type of stupidity with increasing frequency in the last 2 years. The suffering people inflict on their children without being necessary is deplorable and only done to boost ones own ego. She is lucky she didn’t wake up to find one of her children dead in their bed.

        • Chi
          November 8, 2015 at 6:41 pm #

          She states in the article that her kids are homeschooled. BUT she also states that they do other activities, presumably with other children from the area, such as gymnastics (she marveled her son wasn’t kicked out of gymnastics class he was coughing so much).

          Not to mention that SHE still saw her clients, presumably with the pertussis bacteria from her children’s coughs/vomit etc on her. So she was likely a transmission vector too.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc
            November 9, 2015 at 3:15 pm #

            My point exactly. I missed the homeschooling part, but she continued to take them to gymnastics and other activities which is deplorable to expose other young children and physically exhaust a very sick child who by her own admission cannot stop coughing. What she does not realize is none of these herbal remedies or natural potions did anything for her children except extend their suffering for an unthinkable amount of time.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        November 9, 2015 at 9:55 am #

        Says a person who has obviously never read past an abstract

      • MaineJen
        November 9, 2015 at 11:07 am #

        Dexter wrote about how she still took her son to gymnastics class when he was having paroxysmal coughing fits, and is “surprised they didn’t get kicked out.” So…yeah. Read much?

  9. yugaya
    November 6, 2015 at 1:55 pm #

    Oh the irony.

    • Sullivan ThePoop
      November 9, 2015 at 9:56 am #

      And if they do get sick, keep them sick longer than everyone else

  10. Roadstergal
    November 6, 2015 at 1:04 pm #

    I didn’t think of this until I was reading the story over at SBM, but many here have mentioned that Heather herself, and her husband, were almost certainly vaccinated by their parents. So they spent months and months in intimate contact with three massively infected children and their various biofluids, and never got pertussis themselves. They’re poster children for the vaccine, really.

    • Cathy
      November 6, 2015 at 3:02 pm #

      Would have been the whole cell

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:11 am #

      Lots of people don’t get pertussis, in fact there are 18 million people taking immune suppressant drugs in the USA and SBM could only find one who had a hard time with whooping cough. You could say the hoo haa here is totally disproportionate, but it is actually just a load of PR spin. I am amazed so many people have fallen for it here.

      • Azuran
        November 7, 2015 at 9:28 am #

        But those people mainly don’t get sick because of herd immunity. (and I’d also expect people on immune suppressant drugs to be extra carefull in avoiding obviously sick people and usually their close family will keep up to date on vaccine to protect them). If you are not exposed, you cannot get the disease.

        • Hoter
          November 7, 2015 at 9:38 am #

          Yawn, herd immunity. What is that when it is at home?

          • Sarah
            November 7, 2015 at 9:44 am #

            Your face

          • Azuran
            November 7, 2015 at 9:45 am #

            I had not yet realised that you were an idiotic troll before I wasted my time on answering you. Sorry for mistaking you for an actually intelligent person looking for an intelligent discussion.

          • Hoter
            November 10, 2015 at 4:29 am #

            yes it is hard to have an intelligent discussion about vaccination when the efficacy evidence reads like some religious psalm. It is incredulous that there are still a few people left, in the dying stages, still trying to claim that they ‘work’.

            It is like talking to the KKK on racial integration

          • Nick Sanders
            November 7, 2015 at 11:01 pm #

            Still herd immunity.

          • Hoter
            November 9, 2015 at 2:55 pm #

            What all the kids who get polio vaccine are the biggest risk for catching polio, so everyone has to have the vaccine type marketing.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 9, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

            Can you say that again, but this time make sense?

          • Hoter
            November 10, 2015 at 4:31 am #

            The shit of children who have been unlucky enough to receive polio vaccine is a good source of polio infection – in fact in the Western world it is the no 1 cause of Polio.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 10, 2015 at 11:17 am #

            Yeah, I mean there’s that all of one guy in Britain, for example…

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 9:39 pm #

            Well, if it’s just the one guy, I guess that would make it the “number 1 cause in the Western World” then, given that polio is nearly eradicated worldwide and that none of the places that I know of where it still exists are even in in the West.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 10, 2015 at 11:17 pm #

            Yeah, he has an immune disorder, and so didn’t properly respond to the OPV decades ago. He has apparently since been cured via plasma therapy.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34082627

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:09 am #

            They call polio non polio flaccid paralysis now, it got renamed if you had the vaccine. Same number of cases as polio, just more politically convenient.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 11, 2015 at 1:59 pm #

            Prove it.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 11, 2015 at 3:12 pm #

            Thank you for enlightening us!!!!! You have extensively researched the issue, performed a ton of tests on patient samples on a laboratory, published your results… Oh, no, actually that did not happen. The reality is a bunch of antivaxxers, with no idea whatsoever what real research is like comes up with a lovely theory that explains very well that we are all on a big nice conspiracy (billions of people are conspirating) and you simply say it and repeat it like automats on the internet.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 11, 2015 at 3:09 pm #

            Well, actually no.

            There are two types of polio vaccines. The inactivated one and the oral one. The inactivated one (the one that you would use in the USA) has never ever infected anyone. So, if you use the inactivated type, as you should, living in the USA, you are not going to spread polio due to being vaccinated.

          • Roadstergal
            November 11, 2015 at 3:21 pm #

            His reference to ‘shit’ makes me think he’s messing up his anti-vax memes – that is, the SV40 found in the feces of people administered the OPV? (Which, just to finish the thought, was shown not to increase cancer rates short- or long-term in studies of people administered the OPV – in agreement with the animal studies, where oral SV40 did not cause cancer.)

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 11, 2015 at 5:10 pm #

            I thought he might be talking about the shedding that you might have with the oral polio vaccine. It is difficult to think about it as an infection source in a country that does not use that vaccine and the number of cases has always made it worthwile to get that vaccine but… I might be wrong of course, his lack of proper use of scientific terms makes it very difficult to understand him.

        • Hoter
          November 9, 2015 at 2:56 pm #

          Lot of woo in your post. There are 18 million people in the USA on immune suppressant drugs, why don’t they all fall down?

          • Azuran
            November 9, 2015 at 4:51 pm #

            You mean like, all of them, instantly, at the moment they start immune suppressive drugs? Because immunity and diseases do not work like that.
            Immune suppressive drugs will not necessarily put your immunity to absolute 0, It weakens it to various degrees depending of the medication and dosage.
            People on immune suppressant drugs are extra careful to avoid exposure to potential diseases. Avoiding crowded public places and sick people. Also having a very high level of hygiene.
            By the way. Many people on immune suppressant drugs do die from various infectious diseases every single day.
            Why don’t they all die of vaccine preventable disease? Well because the majority of people are vaccinated and are immune to the disease, so immune suppressed people have very little chances to be exposed.

          • Hoter
            November 10, 2015 at 4:37 am #

            Bing bang Azuran. Nice word tagine there. You sort of missed the point. The immune system is a waste recognition system, suppressing it, however little, is always going to make the patient more susceptible to some kind of disease process. Like the rubella vaccine and its know precipitation of rhumatoid disease in adults. What you are not telling people is that if they take this or that vaccine, they open themselves up to all sorts of shit, literally. Modern medicine has no philosophy of application, it has ethics and protocols, but it has no idea about what it is trying to achieve. Vaccination so does not make you immune to ‘the disease’. Just look at the regular failure of whooping cough vaccine, it’s an unmitigated disaster.

          • Azuran
            November 10, 2015 at 7:49 am #

            ‘philosophy of application’? What is that and how is it different than ‘ethics and protocols’?
            Yea we know what we are trying to achieve: Preventing preventable deaths.

            Can some people have adverse effect? Yes. they can. Can they sometime fail to work? Yes they can. Those fact are very well known. No one ever claimed that every vaccine what 100% safe and 100% effective. They are, however, one of the most effective ‘medication’ et have and one of the safest. The adverse effects are nothing when compared to all the lives that are saved every single year.
            We did have a whooping cough epidemic as well last year (yea, someone brought it all the way from disney land to my country). With slightly over 100 cases. 100% of those who had it were not vaccinated. In a population were over 90% of the population is vaccinated. Vaccination is very effective and we shouldn’t stop it on the ground that it’s not 100% success. There is no teatment in medecine that is 100% effective in treating/preventing anything.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:05 am #

            please get a dictionary. We do have whooping cough epidemics in fully vaccinated cohorts Azuran and rates have been steadily climbing every year since the 90’s. The vaccine is not working and never has.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 11, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            Prove it.

          • Azuran
            November 11, 2015 at 8:28 pm #

            Don’t know where you live. But where I live, cases of whopping cough are indeed rising….In unvaccinated children, in area where the vaccination rate is no longer high enough to provide herd imunity. Vaccine are not effective when you don’t get them.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 10, 2015 at 11:22 am #

            The immune system is a waste recognition system

            No.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:11 am #

            So why is almost all of your primary immune response a dramatic increase in excretion, ie mucous, D and vomiting, sweating, sneezing, coughing………….

            You tell us what it is if it isn’t this please.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 11, 2015 at 1:35 pm #

            Mucous trap pathogens in the respiratory tract; diarrhea and vomiting are immune responses, they are what happens when something irritates the digestive tract; sweating is a side effect of the actual immune response of fever, which is there to slow down pathogen reproduction; sneezing and coughing are again, not immune responses but physical reflexes in response to irritation of different parts of the respiratory system.

            And you completely misused the phrase “primary immune response”:
            http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0000947.html

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 7:39 am #

            Thanks Nick that was interesting. Point is though, the innate immune system, which is what it is talking about is only 2% of our immune response. No mention of mucous etc. and how this is more likely to be our primary response, they move straight to the sexy stuff, which is rather late in the day to be honest.

            The other 98% is non specific and that is the interesting bit that orthodox medicine usually sees as annoying symptoms. I would go further to say that we don’t get pathogens multiplying in healthy bodies so the emphasis on an alternative approach to medical fire fighting is to stop the fire being necessary. Unhealthy bodies make homes for pathogens, not the other way round.

            To quote Virchow, the father of pathology, ‘If I could live my life again I would not waste it chasing germs, for like the stagnant pond attrachs mosquetos, it doesn’t make the pond stagnent’.

            I appreciate that sometimes firefighting is totally necessary, but in the vast majority of human ills, we are creating the pathway to the fire by suppressing all those little cleaning events and making the likelihood of a bigger mess more likely.

          • MaineJen
            November 12, 2015 at 9:23 am #

            I notice that you’re completely ignoring the adaptive immune system here…aka the formation of antibodies. Could it be that you have no idea how the immune system actually works, or how vaccines actually work? Are you just spouting nonsense to hear yourself speak?

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 10:26 am #

            Hi Maine, not really, antibodies are a marker, they are not a sign of immunity to anything, in a sense they are not that important. The so called ‘adaptive immune system’ is only a very small part of immune function.

          • Megan
            November 12, 2015 at 10:51 am #

            So, activation of complement and B cells aren’t that important? I see…

          • Hoter
            November 14, 2015 at 9:47 am #

            It is a distraction from the real factors in health Megan. Trying to provoke sexy bits of cellular activity in a patient who has say Hep B is not as important as sorting out the lifestyle that led to the liver problem.
            We know that 90% of adults recover with no problem. One wonders why these 90% are not studied, because changing lifestyle is the key, it is more important than fiddling with bits of activity, especially if the patient is eating crap and not resting.

          • Megan
            November 14, 2015 at 10:28 am #

            Nice sidestepping there. I said nothing about vaccines at all. I merely countered your ridiculous assertion that antibodies aren’t important with two functions of antibodies. You’re welcome to respond to my actual comment.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 14, 2015 at 8:30 pm #

            One wonders why these 90% are not studied

            No, one doesn’t, because they are.

          • fiftyfifty1
            November 14, 2015 at 9:40 pm #

            Well, if a person is literally eating crap, Hep A is a real risk. Luckily there is a vaccination. You can even take it as a combo shot with Hep B! It’s called Twinrix.

          • Hoter
            November 16, 2015 at 8:17 am #

            Hep B naturally resolves with no treatment in 90% of adults who change their lifestyles and diet. Why would anyone want to get the vaccine. If you eat well and have a good lifestyle, you don’t ‘get it’.

          • Wren
            November 16, 2015 at 8:51 am #

            Well, not unless you do.

          • Hoter
            November 16, 2015 at 11:22 am #

            that is a stupid logic. We make people wear seatbelts or fine them. Maybe we should fine fat people for eating too much or would you rather mediaid paid for gastric bands? Maybe free lung transplants for cigar smokers – what kind of scientist are you? A money scientist?

          • MaineJen
            November 16, 2015 at 11:09 am #

            …are you high?

            No, seriously. How do you think people get sick?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 16, 2015 at 11:33 am #

            And in children?

          • Hoter
            November 17, 2015 at 2:15 pm #

            http://www.hepb.org/patients/children_and_hepatitis_b.htm

            Hepatitis B does not usually affect a child’s
            normal growth and development. Most children
            with chronic hepatitis B infections will enjoy long and healthy
            lives. Unlike other chronic medical conditions, there are
            generally no physical disabilities associated with hepatitis
            B, nor are there usually any physical restrictions for these
            children.

          • Wren
            November 17, 2015 at 2:37 pm #

            Are you insane? Did you actually read the rest of that information, or just quote the first thing that matched your beliefs?

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 4:31 pm #

            From the link he posted. Hey, way better than a kid getting a perfectly safe vaccination!

          • Hoter
            November 20, 2015 at 3:06 am #

            Nice appeal to emotion Wren.Most people recover from Hep B without treatment, just a lifestyle change. I am not vaccinating my kids or anyone in my familiy for the 10% of people who won’t do that.

          • Who?
            November 20, 2015 at 3:20 am #

            Nice you assume your family couldn’t get it or if they did they would be one of the ‘most’. Complacency killing or maiming you would be one thing, it’s a bad look setting your kids up for the same fate.

            Also funny how you demand 100% safety from vaccines but are totally fine with ‘usually’ as your protection.

          • Hoter
            November 22, 2015 at 6:16 pm #

            What on earth are you trying to say here Who? I don’t demand anything from vaccines, the whole concept is woo, where did you get that idea?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 22, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

            How, pray tell, is it woo?

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 12:17 pm #

            Vaccine relies on medical peer review for ‘evidence’. This is no more than branded marketing. You tell us why vaccination isn’t woo.

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 12:53 pm #

            So…..You are saying that all studies done on vaccines are worthless because they are made by medical professionals and reviewed by other medical professionals? who should review medical studies if not other medical professionals? The Pizza delivery guy?

            Vaccination isn’t woo because there have been numerous studies showing their efficacy time and time again. It is a fact. You are just wrong.

          • Sarah
            November 30, 2015 at 1:36 pm #

            The only people qualified to review medical studies are stupid, paranoid hippies. I can’t believe you even needed to ask.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 1:56 pm #

            Appeals to medical peer review are not acceptable citations. What world do you live in. Medical peer review gives us gems like VIOXX that killed 500,000 Americans in the 10 years in was in use. You are relying on straw, I hope you don’t have children.

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 2:20 pm #

            I will definitely have children and definitely vaccinate them because it is a safe and effective way to prevent disease that can be deadly and can have lifelong consequences.

            So, you don’t consider medical professional conducting studies and then have other medical professional look over their work and confirm that their methodology was good and their result valid as something acceptable.
            What kind of testing would you find acceptable?
            Because according to you, every single study ever made on every single medication, surgery or medical test out there is worthless.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:36 pm #

            We accept surgery, which has almost no trial evidence to show it works. The problem with medical peer review, particularly for vaccines and many lifestyle drugs like statins, arthritis and blood pressure meds is that too much money rides on their success. We have to rely on the private sector to produce evidence and this is not a healthy way to run things. Even the editors of the main medical peer reviewed journals agree with this, it is not the nirvana you are portraying at all.

            Most doctors have no idea about what makes for a healthy diet, why should they be trusted to prescribe medication for people who are obese and have diabetes? or cancer for that matter?

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 6:20 pm #

            Claiming that vaccine work and are safe is not ‘nirvana’

            You are the one expecting a perfect world where everything is 100% bias free. Never gonna happen. Our evidence might not be 100% perfect, but we have a ridiculous amount of it. Medicine is not perfect, it will never be perfect, but it is constantly evolving and changing with each new discovery.

            The only thing anti-vaxxers have to show is the Disney measles epidemic, which is as good of a placebo study as you are ever going to get.
            As for your comment about Doctor: For the same reason you trust teacher to teach your kids, or an engineer to build a bridge, or a pilot to fly a plane. Because they went to school and trained for this. Doesn’t mean they are perfect or can’t make mistake, but they still know a lot more than you ever will.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:18 am #

            Claiming that a vaccine works, when all you have is medical peer reviewed research is like claiming a creationist evolution because you have a bible and lots of supporters.

            You sure do have a rediculous amount of it, thank you for being honest – it’s completely rediculous and more does not mean better if it’s horse shit, believe me.

            You know Disney, you know what the CDC announced about that “An unknown woman, who may have been infected with measles, may have stayed at Disney, whereabouts now unknown”

            building bridges is science, being a doctor is woo. I mean their only ‘treatment’ for things like arthritis is painkillers. If we ‘treated’ falling bridges with sky hooks or no money with credit cards – where is the logic in that?

            Doctors are not trained to think, they are trained to follow protocols and ethical rules. If the rules say prescribe VIOXX they do – when 500,000 Americans die from heart attack they carry on until they are told to stop by someone else. No, I would not trust a doctor with my health choices. Doctors know more about woo belief than I ever will, I mean they think you can ‘catch’ flu and colds. LOL

            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 1:30 pm #

            Because it primes the immune system for when actual pathogens show up.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

            Citation required that isn’t some medical peer reviewed bible or from a study funded by a vaccine manufacturer please. I can’t believe you believe that fairy story, it’s LOL.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 2:41 pm #

            No, sorry, you’re the one expecting to overturn more than a century of empirically established models, you can provide the proof that the current consensus is wrong.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:44 pm #

            So, Nick, who established these ‘models’, who is this consensus you speak so highly of? Looks like an appeal to pseudo authority fallacy to me.
            citation required

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 8:47 pm #

            Stop using words you don’t understand.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:44 am #

            So was one of the models Naomi Campbell? I assume you have no idea who established the medical consensus, I am assuming you made it up!

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 12:49 pm #

            http://lmgtfy.com/?q=germ+theory

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 3:23 pm #

            So…..basically you are saying: Prove it, but any existing proof is invalid because I said so.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 3:35 pm #

            Pretty much. Hoter has repeatedly shown up, made bold claims, demanded we prove otherwise, and yet never provided any proof of their own.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            December 1, 2015 at 12:03 am #

            What dimensional rift has this breed of anti-factual nut jobs crawled out of and how do we close it?

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:45 pm #

            You are the vaccine believer, not me Azuran. I don’t see evidence, I see cookery. No placebos, but claims of placebo, cherry picked data and denial of negative data.

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 6:15 pm #

            Considering that the world medical consensus is that vaccine works, you are actually the one who has to prove to the world that we are wrong. We have more than proved that we were right.
            You know why there are no placebos? Because doing double blinded studies with placebo would causes children to die.
            Funny how all antivaxxer are claiming all out evidence is bogus because we don’t have placebo trials, yet you don’t see them making one.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:07 am #

            The total number of ‘medical experts’ in the world represents a very small proportion. ‘Experts’, by definition are self appointed. They create their own appeal to authority. Financial experts brought the world to its knees with piss poor finance decisions.

            It is ironic that you decide children would die with placebo trials, it assumes that the vaccine works!
            When the national institute of clinical evidence (NICE) did trials on fever and meningitis, it found that withholding fever reduction medication meant that all the children survived, with no sequali.

            This meant full recovery with no loss of limbs etc.

            What is bogus is the randomized control trial testing methodology, it isn’t evidence, it is contrived data production.

            We know that measles mortality evaporates with one carrot a days worth of vitamin A. This represents nil risk and full protection from death.

            The medical mythology teaches that measles is some random woo that kills willy nilly and the only ‘protection’ is their snake oil product. Where is the science?

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 1:14 pm #

            When the national institute of clinical evidence (NICE) did trials on fever and meningitis, it found that withholding fever reduction medication meant that all the children survived, with no sequali.

            Citation or it didn’t happen.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            November 30, 2015 at 5:35 pm #

            So what would you accept as a reliable source?

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:53 pm #

            Tomato

          • Wren
            November 20, 2015 at 4:56 am #

            Again, did you read anything else? The vast majority of infants DO NOT RECOVER. A significant percentage of children DO NOT RECOVER. I’m not arguing for vaccinating adults who are not in a close relationship with known HepB carriers, but children and infants, many of whom WILL NOT RECOVER.

          • Hoter
            November 22, 2015 at 6:17 pm #

            It is a stupid argument and I don’t look to others to pretend to ‘protect’ my family with voodoo. shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?

          • Wren
            November 22, 2015 at 6:26 pm #

            I don’t look to others for voodoo either. I look to scientists and doctors for evidence based interventions like vaccines that have drastically altered the survival rate of children.

            You go ahead and stick to your voodoo though, or whatever it is you are claiming that makes just as little sense.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 12:11 pm #

            What a shame you somehow correlate doctors and evidence. When doctors relied on the evidence for VIOXX the mortality rate went up by 50,000 in the over 65 age group, it stayed there for 10 years until it was finally admitted that it was causing heart attacks. In the year it was taken off the market, the mortality rate fell by 50,000. The ‘evidence’ that doctors relied on killed 500,000 Americans.
            The same kind of ‘evidence’ tells the woo of vaccine success Wren. Vaccine compliance is the new ‘natural selection’ and that isn’t for survival, just in case you get excited.
            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

          • Dr Kitty
            December 1, 2015 at 4:40 am #

            Ok…
            COX2 was a combination of drug companies suppressing unfavourable evidence and it taking time for an adverse event to become apparent.
            Once it had, Vioxx came off the market, drug companies were fined and class action lawsuits were settled.

            You have yet to produce any credible evidence to support your claims, but then you honestly disregard germ theory and any genetic basis for cancer.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 5:23 am #

            You write that and Hoter will respond with is ‘vaccines bad blah, vioxx a conspiracy blah blah, doctors evil blah, diet fixes everything blah, people used to live forever despite those old cemeteries full of babies burp…’

            Rinse and repeat.

            After all, alternative medicine never has to withdraw anything, since nothing works, and if the user gets sicker or dies it is because they didn’t use it properly or believe enough.

          • Box of Salt
            November 22, 2015 at 7:19 pm #

            Hoter “shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?”

            Yes, let’s learn to swim.

            Vaccines are the teachers for your immune system, Hoter.

            Allow your body to learn from them.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 12:13 pm #

            Nice woo box of crap. So this years flu vaccine was ‘3% effective’, shit teaching. Better learn to swim

          • Nick Sanders
            November 22, 2015 at 7:57 pm #

            So, you’re saying kids shouldn’t wear lifejackets?

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 12:20 pm #

            You are saying kids should wear a pretend life-jacket, with woo vaccine talisman protection tassel mantras, just in case aliens land.

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

            No, just a plain old regular life-jacket. They have been proven effective and safe.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            You’re playing the vaccine fallacy card and playing the irrelevant analogy argument too. Relying on medical peer review is not ‘evidence’ either.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 2:02 pm #

            No, see, I was asking a serious question, in regards to your previous post:

            shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?

            Learning to swim takes time, and even once you’ve done so, accidents can still happen. Thus young children should always wear lifejackets when around swimming pools and other similarly sized water or larger, and even adults should wear them at times, such as when boating. It’s basic precaution, but you implied it was silly.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 2:16 pm #

            But life jackets and health are not the same thing. You are making the vaccine fallacy argument that without a vaccine you will get ill. This simply isn’t at all true. The medical fallacy that the body goes wrong and needs doctors to fix it, doesn’t apply to everything. I get run over,, yes 911 makes complete sense. Most of the rest from the reasons for heart disease, cancer and all those auto immune conditions on is bloody bonkers.
            What doctor alive, routinely asks the patient what they are eating and whether or not they shit?
            Medical doctors can’t even ask basic questions and formulate anything else other than palliative care. No wonder so many of them commit suicide.
            http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410643_2
            I suppose the shock of realising that your work is based on woo must be too much for some.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 2:40 pm #

            But life jackets and health are not the same thing.

            It was your comparison, don’t blame me.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:41 pm #

            “Nick Sanders
            3 hours ago
            So, you’re saying kids shouldn’t wear lifejackets?”

            Guess that makes you a liar and a vaccine believer!

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 8:50 pm #

            Let’s see:
            1. Are you so dumb you forget what you yourself have said?
            2. We’ve been over this. I don’t “believe” in vaccines any more than I “believe” in shovels or air conditioners.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            November 30, 2015 at 5:32 pm #

            “What doctor alive, routinely asks the patient what they are eating and whether or not they shit?”

            Colorectal surgeons and gastroenterologists routinely ask patients about bowel motions. Endocrinologists specialising in diabetes would routinely ask about diet.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:53 pm #

            Hey, monkey cock, go take a stroll on a gastro ward and watch them eating processed wheat cereals with cows milk whist the ‘specialist’ talks about what immune suppressant they should be on.
            You are sooooo out of touch here, so way beyond reality – you have to be a doctor, right?
            Ask anyone on insulin what the protocol for a hypo is, take a bag of Haribos, not reduce the insulin. All they are interested in is blood stats, if you overload with insulin the rest of the pancreas shuts down and then they relax, because it can all be ‘managed then’.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            November 30, 2015 at 6:22 pm #

            Please reread my post. All I did was show that your implication that no doctor ever asks about diet or bowel motions was clearly incorrect. But I guess it’s easier to hurl abuse and then change the subject rather than admit your mistake.

            And eating fast release carbohydrates is indeed the correct emergency treatment for a hypo, although I’ve never seen anyone recommend a whole bag of Haribos. The insulin dose should be reviewed also and reduced if appropriate, but this is of no use in the acute setting. Unless of course your advice is that a person with diabetes should treat a hypo by going back in time and taking less insulin.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 9:00 pm #

            And definitely not these Haribos:

            http://www.amazon.com/Haribo-Sugar-Free-Gummy-Bears/product-reviews/B008JELLCA

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 9:25 pm #

            These would do wonder on the gastro ward.
            Those comments are epic!

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:27 am #

            It is a shame you cannot really understand this subject, but talking to septic believers is a bit like talking to Scientologists on the woo of engrams.

            The MD does not have any relevant training on diet with regard to its paramount contribution in recovery from chronic illness. To the MD all chronic illness is generally bad luck, blamed on parents or mystery.

            The idea that you can address many diseases by using appropriate dietary methods is an anathema to them – almost beyond comprehension.

          • Dr Kitty
            December 1, 2015 at 3:31 am #

            Hoter, you going to suggest which diet my Crohn’s patient needs?
            Now remember, it has to be nutritionally complete, no good if she gets beriberi or scurvy or kwashiorkor!

            I have no issue with her trying to eat whatever she wants, as yet however, it hasn’t worked.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:57 am #

            I need more information, age, medical history, any elective surgery, occupation, what does patient do when she gets a cold, vaccine history, a food diary for about two weeks, I need to see the posture. If you can supply that, I would be happy to help.

          • Dr Kitty
            December 1, 2015 at 7:17 pm #

            Not going to happen, for the simple reason that there are strict rules in place about sharing patient information with random crazy people on the Internet… And you know it.

            Tell you what, why don’t you inject yourself with some HIV and HepC, cure yourself with diet and lifestyle and then come back and share your knowledge.

            If viruses don’t make healthy people sick, well, you should have no problems!

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 7:44 pm #

            Wouldn’t matter what the suggestion was, when it didn’t work the response would be ‘you didn’t try hard enough/didn’t believe enough/aren’t fully open to it’.

            As we know, alt practitioners are never wrong, but according to them, their former patients always are.

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 8:01 pm #

            It’s the posture!!!!! Clearly crohn’s disease is caused by hunched back and not properly sitting on a chair.
            I guess my cat patients with IBD just have a posture problem. They must not be rolling themself on the right side when they curl themselves in a ball!!!!

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 3:47 am #

            Again with the moronic words-‘septic’ this time.

            Being rude and mocking doesn’t make you right.

            I just hope your poor children don’t pay the same price as Ms Dexter’s or an even higher price for your ignorance.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 4:00 am #

            When medicine kills 500,000 with VIOXX, and you can only find one family that had issues managing whooping cough not very well, but the patient survived – what is your point about being desperate and insulting?
            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed
            I don’t ‘hope’ anything honey – I just get on with it.

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 4:36 am #

            Would that you were right about there only being one such family. The world would be a better place if that were true.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 8:56 pm #

            Medicine learns and gets better.

            You believe and are lucky.

            You’re also incredibly callous. Dexter’s children were grievously ill for six months, and have who knows what kind of long term ill health as a result. But hey, so long as mum got to indulge herself, what does all that suffering matter? Are you one of those who think children don’t feel pain and don’t remember being sick? I do wonder whether natural health nuts are often actually illness denialists-‘oh dear, did you cough up a lung darling? Never mind have some of mummy’s worse than useless tincture so mummy can feel better.’

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 9:31 pm #

            You know why we can only find one family with whooping cough? Because no one gets whooping cough anymore thanks to vaccination.
            And as people pointed out MANY times: Vioxx has been taked out of the market.

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 11:01 pm #

            Been looking for an excuse to post this, thanks.

            https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/pb.414643305272351.-2207520000.1448912643./954882777915065/?type=3

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 10:04 pm #

            Did he just call us septic believers?…..what does that make us?

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 11:00 pm #

            Septic means whatever Hoter wants it to mean.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 11:36 pm #

            Hoter’s been doing it for days-oh so clever. Thing is, however rude, disparaging, insulting or pathetic Hoter is, it doesn’t make anyone else wrong.

            Not a lesson Hoter has grasped. But then he is a bit thick, since he thinks small children being deathly ill for six months is a perfectly acceptable price to pay for their parent’s beliefs.

          • Dr Kitty
            November 30, 2015 at 7:03 pm #

            So IBD doesn’t exist?
            Or it does, but only as a reaction to gluten and lactose?
            Or gliadin and cow’s milk protein?
            Or to what exactly?

            I have one patient with Crohns who has tried everything.
            Raw food, gluten free, Paleo, vegan, FODMAP, you name it, she’s tried it. Every time I hear how she’s really feeling better, and is sure the diet is working and how we should cut down her immunosuppressants. Then a few weeks later the diet is no good, the symptoms are worse, and can we up the dose again?

            I think it is repeated placebo effects with the real benefit coming from her medications, which she will not keep taking at the effective but high doses she needs.

            Do you think she just hasn’t found the right extremely restrictive all natural diet?

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:41 am #

            Of course irritation of the bowel exists. Crohns used to be called ‘terminal ileitis’. They used to cut that bit out and then join it up. funny thing was, the last bit would inflame and they would do the same until there was nothing left. What never occurred to the gastroenterologists was that it was what was in the bowel that was not being considered.

            How the body digests higher up matters, if the food is not digested well, it breaks down and rots. This bolus is what contributes to the inflammation at the terminus of the small intestine.

            Other factors are shift work, not eating balanced diet with regularity, too many mercury fillings – it is well known this link for GIT ulceration, many of my patients have been dental nurses.

            Does your patient have low back pain?, some patients have spinal lesions affecting vasomotors to the GIT and these need addressing.

            Anything that raises the sympathetic tone will decrease GIT secretor motor and contribute to poorly digested food, that becomes an irritant.

            Every patient I have had with who used to have either IBD and Crohn’s had a combination of the above factors in differing degrees. Got to take wheat and dairy out of the diet, lie down after every meal for half an hour, put a routine back into the life and stop doing shift work.

            You can’t do raw, unless you remove the insoluble fibre by juicing with a masticating juicer. It is not a question of stopping meds and trying random diets Dr Kitty, you need to be able to make a constitutional diagnosis, not a hybrid medical one.

            A lot of septic sites have really fucked up access to this logical information, Wiki is one of the worst. So I appreciate you have had a hard time trying to find this information, I have only summarized some of it here but there are a lot good people helping IBD and Crohn’s patients recover completely without meds and lead a fairly normal disease free life.

          • Dr Kitty
            December 1, 2015 at 7:08 pm #

            Oh dear G-d!
            Hoter claims to have patients!
            Someone is actually PAYING him for this nonsense!

            My Crohn’s patients hasn’t worked in years… Shift work is not her problem. I would LOVE to see the mechanism whereby Mercury fillings can cause colitis. Would also like to know how someone having 8-10 stools a day can possibly have food stay in their gut long enough to rot!

            BTW Hoter, Crohn’s can affect the entire GIT from the mouth to the anus.

            Also, looks like he’s deleting his more obviously stupid comments, like the one about Haribo and hypoglycaemia…

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 7:46 pm #

            Last I heard, only Dr. Tuteur can actually delete comments here, and she only does it for things that are particularly offensive or spammy.

          • Who?
            November 30, 2015 at 8:23 pm #

            Hoter, you do realise that you can call people all the childish vulgar names you like, it doesn’t make them wrong? Or you right?

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 9:15 pm #

            The treatment of hypoglycemia is sugar because right now, your sugar is low and you need to get it up right away, lowering your next insulin dose isn’t going to help your hypoglycemia right now.
            Then, once you ate the candy and your blood sugar is normal again, you see about readjusting your insulin.
            But many things will affect your blood sugar during the day so keeping a tight control over it is hard. it’s not as simple as ‘lowering your insulin’

            Doctor do spend a good amount of time talking about diet. When my dad had a stroke this summer, the doctor talked to him at length about food (and various other health things) and gave him multiple info sheets on what he was and wasn’t allowed to eat anymore.

          • Who?
            November 30, 2015 at 10:28 pm #

            I think we both know that Hoter is not susceptible to truth or reason, and is in any event far too busy whipping up evidence for whatever paranoid nonsense du jour he or she is peddling to pay attention.

            In my experience it isn’t the doctor talking about diet that’s the problem, it’s the patient being unwilling or unable to hear or take the advice.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 30, 2015 at 11:39 pm #

            far too busy whipping up evidence

            Actually, Hoter has yet to offer even the suggestion of evidence on their part.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:47 am #

            Did you doctor talk about the importance of vitamin C in CVD and vitamin D and Niacin?

          • Azuran
            December 1, 2015 at 10:55 am #

            Mostly they talked about exercise, stopping smoking, not dringking so much and eating generally healthier. Because those things are obviously way more important in helping his heart than vitamin c supplements.
            But then again, his new diet includes loads of fruit, so there is no concern about his vitamin C levels (or any other kind of food related deficiency). He was already on medication for his cholesterol and seeing as he had his stroke in summer and he’s an outside worker, I doubt he has vitamin D deficiency.

          • Hoter
            December 2, 2015 at 6:51 pm #

            Vitamin C is crucial in CVD. Collagen needs vit C to keep the blood vessels elastic! Meds for cholesterol is about as stupid as it gets if he is not taking vit C!

          • Azuran
            December 2, 2015 at 10:35 pm #

            As I said. Lots of fruits.
            Or are you going to say now that eating healthy is not enough anymore? You’re going to say that you still need vitamin supplements no matter how good you eat? After all that talk you did about doctors not caring about nutrition?

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 4:37 am #

            I was asked about this by every passing medic after my section. Midwife, obstetrician, anaesthetist, all were fascinated with what was going in and coming out.

          • fiftyfifty1
            November 30, 2015 at 9:52 pm #

            “and even adults should wear them at times, such as when boating”

            Yep. I swam at the college level. I still wear a lifejacket whenever I boat, even just canoeing. My brother-in-law was a national champion swimmer at a Division 1 university, and he follows the same policy. If a rogue wave hits just right, and you breathe in at just the wrong time, even the strongest swimmer can drown.

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

            Similarly, I’m very healthy and do all the Hotor-approved things – eat well, lots of exercise, a good night’s sleep. I still get vaccinated, because although I will _probably_ survive any infection I’m faced with, I greatly prefer to not have to deal with them in the first place if a vaccine is available, and because even a small risk of death is worth lowering.

            (And for some diseases, having a hearty, healthy, strong immune system puts one at a disadvantage – eg, Spanish flu.)

          • Azuran
            November 22, 2015 at 8:38 pm #

            You should totally learn to swim. And that’s actually what vaccination does. It teaches your body how to fight an infection before it needs to do it.
            Not vaccinating your children is like throwing them into the pond without teaching them how to swim and hope they get the hang of it before they drown.

            Beside. Why would I want to take the risk of being forced to ‘change my lifestyle’ by an illness that can easily be prevented?

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 12:23 pm #

            Gosh you really have the septic fear woo of the lurgy wurgy. It is fascinating that you really believe without vaccine we are all doomed. Considering this year flu vaccine is only ‘3% effective’ there must be a lot of septics shitting it. I bet the mortality rate isn’t any higher than any other year, that is what Cochraine found. Flu vaccine is the high alter of woo. Did you get your ‘protection?’.

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 1:03 pm #

            How did you even interpret what I said as me saying we are ‘doomed’ without vaccination?
            True, we have survived without it for thousands of years and we would keep living on without it. Sure, a couple more hundreds of thousands kids and elderly people would die every single year from vaccine preventable diseases, but I guess that doesn’t matter to you. I kinda prefer my kids and grandparents to be alive and healthy.

            The failure of the flu vaccine of last year absolutely does not mean that all vaccination is useless or that all flu vaccination for that matter is useless.
            Making a vaccine take time. They have to predict in advance which strains of flu are more likely to be most prevalent on any given year. Last year their prediction was wrong­. That’s all that happened. The vaccine was super effective against the flu strains in it. Those strains were just different than the ones causing the bulk of the epidemic.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

            Gosh, you are so entry level septic. The dishonesty of the vaccine evidence movement is paramount to your fantasy of vaccines having any benefit. The pretend science of vaccines is no different to burgers claiming to be food.

            What on earth gave you the idea that vaccine scientists, based on predictions, were anything else but woo?

          • Azuran
            November 30, 2015 at 4:49 pm #

            well, first of all, Burgers are definitely food…. I can’t believe I actually have to explain that to someone….
            I’m not a septic. I’m a medical professional, I have education in epidemiology and immunity, and I use and see the benefits of vaccination every single day in my practice.
            Yea sure, epidemiology is woo. Taking samples from sick people, identifying the strains of the flu in a lab and monitoring their progression through the population to make prediction about which ones are more likely to cause epidemics is totally woo. Absolutely nothing scientific going on there.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            November 30, 2015 at 11:52 pm #

            Well that depends.

            Falling in to a pond isn’t a huge deal if you can swim back to shore. A lot like how my generation wasn’t vaccinated against small pox because it’s no longer a threat.

            However, it is the law that when you go out in a boat on the ocean that you wear a life jacket. It’s especially important for children. It’s not a sure chance you’ll fall out of the boat but if you do in the ocean the consequences are much, much worse even if you can swim. A lifejacket can keep you upright and breathing. Without it you have until your body is too cold to move your limbs enough to keep you floating. Even if a vaccine isn’t 100% perfect it will make it much more likely for you to survive if you have it compared to if your immune system is left to fend for itself. Much like a lifejacket makes it more likely to survive if you do fall out of the boat. Our life jackets are vaccines like TDaP and MMR because it’s more likely we’ll be exposed to it, like you’re more likely to fall out of the boat on a rough sea.

            Which would you prefer? I’ll take the life jacket.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:50 am #

            But a vaccine isn’t a lifejacket, it’s a lifeload. People who die from measles are malnourished, not vaccine deficient. You need to read the review on tetanus vaccine – another pseudo treatment.

            Geez, all these vaccine believers are weird, who told them this stuff works – it is a joke right.

          • MaineJen
            November 30, 2015 at 4:57 pm #

            But Wren…don’t you get it? Talking about infants and children dying of a vaccine-preventable illness is a *stupid argument.* End of discussion!!!1!

            We really should put Hoter and Lawrie in a room together. A padded room. And seal the door. They will get caught in an endless woo-loop together and never bother us again…

          • Roadstergal
            November 30, 2015 at 5:27 pm #

            Oh, the histology! …I mean, humanity!

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 30, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

            Well, the page you cite, THE VERY PAGE YOU CITE also says that:
            -90% of infants infected develop chronic infection
            -25-50% of children under 5 that get infected do so
            – children with hep B infection should get referred to an specialist in order to decide which treatment is best. By the way, most of the treatments they cite are not nice nor do they recommend lifestyle changes only.
            – hep b infection can cause cancer in 10% of people with chronic infection.
            – hep b infection can cause cirrhosis.

            So, yes, they do say that it does not cause dissabilities, but I would consider liver cancer something important and significant.

            And, how can you explain the lifestyles that are so bad for infants???? Formula feeding????

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:49 pm #

            “- hep b infection can cause cancer in 10% of people with chronic infection.
            – hep b infection can cause cirrhosis.”

            So 90% don’t get cancer, and why is that? Who has studied those that recover, completely with no sequali. Was it magik?

            We all know that these kids are living in hellish situations with crap parenting, it is not proportionate to jab everyone, using this as the standard.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            December 1, 2015 at 3:33 pm #

            Would you mind answering the questions??? Looks like either you have no interest in the discussion or you simply ignore it when you hear something that makes you look like a fool.

            Bad parenting… That is a joke, isn’t it? Because then, why hep B is a problem in very good parenting places? Only because it lets you get an explanation that nobody can measure and only you can approve????

            Why is it that the very site you cite recommends vaccination agaisnt hep B at birth? Why is it that it becomes a chronic disease more in infants and not in adults, when infants are not drinking alcohol, which is your explanation???? Crappy parenting just does not cut it, sorry, and yes, show me those data.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 5:16 pm #

            What’s a few dead poor kids, hey Hoter?

          • Nick Sanders
            December 1, 2015 at 5:40 pm #

            We all know that these kids are living in hellish situations with crap parenting,

            More claims, still no proof.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 30, 2015 at 3:42 pm #

            Oh, and they do recommend vaccination, by the way.

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 3:30 pm #

            Well, they get the bonus prize of risk of liver damage and/or cancer from all of that binge drinking they did, according to Hodor, that just happens to be associated with Australia antigen in their blood. But it’s totes not HepB.

            It always amazes me, how little the alt med folk think of HepB. Its ability to live on surfaces is utterly insane, very unusual amongst viruses (a spot of contaminated biofluid is still infectious for HepB after the HIV has long died off). The vaccine against HepB is a vaccine against liver failure and cancer. It’s a slam dunk as far as I’m concerned (I got the vaccine).

          • Nick Sanders
            November 17, 2015 at 3:44 pm #

            It can live a fucking week? Holy shit. And I had thought the flu virus that could live 2 days on a hard surface was durable.

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

            At least a week – it can live longer. Some have reported over a month.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm #

            Can we just have a Noah’s Flood of Lysol? Please?

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

            Anyone who is surprised by the lovely plummet in the incidence of HBV infection after routine vaccination was instituted in 1991 has not been paying attention… I mean, it’s not like little kids put everything in their mouths.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            November 20, 2015 at 5:34 am #

            Hepatoma (the common form of liver cancer) rates have decreased in countries with high endemic rates of hep B and universal vaccination. See, for example, this review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26328023

          • fiftyfifty1
            November 16, 2015 at 11:46 am #

            Umm, because of the people for whom it doesn’t resolve. And because it’s no fun to have even for the ones in whom it does resolve. And because until it does resolve you can spread it to others, especially your own loved ones/close contacts.

          • Hoter
            November 17, 2015 at 2:17 pm #

            So because 90% of people recover with no problems you are going to insist that they have a toxic unnecessary vaccine because 10% of people are to fucking stupid to stop drinking and eating shit!

            Brilliant

          • Wren
            November 17, 2015 at 2:42 pm #

            The vast majority of infants who acquire HepB develop chronic HepB. They do not recover. A high percentage of children do as well. I’m sure that’s just all the alcohol they are drinking though.

          • MaineJen
            November 30, 2015 at 4:01 pm #

            Huh. Silence from Hoter. Who would have thought?

          • Wren
            November 17, 2015 at 2:55 pm #

            And the 90% of infants and 30-50% of children who develop chronic HepB? I’m sure it’s the alcohol doing them in.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 17, 2015 at 2:59 pm #

            Toxic?

          • Roadstergal
            December 1, 2015 at 7:40 pm #

            Yes, all of the ebul toxic side effects. I had the full series and got… uh… a goofy Band-Aid at one visit?

          • Azuran
            November 16, 2015 at 12:17 pm #

            To not risk being one of those 10% who get the disease.
            (Or 90%, if you are a baby)

          • Sarah
            November 30, 2015 at 1:34 pm #

            In case I’m one of the 10%? Luckily I had the vaccine in childhood.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 2:04 pm #

            What a ridiculous, paranoid person you must be. Why not cut off your body, in case you get cancer somewhere. Why are all these medics so superstitious? Why is disease in your world bad luck?
            Do you have a tabernacle? Is it because the ‘woo science of medicine’ teaches doctors that getting ill is because of bad luck? All disease is a mystery? We can’t live a long healthy life without fiddling from doctors.

          • Sarah
            November 30, 2015 at 2:27 pm #

            Disease in my world is frequently bad luck because I live on this planet. I’m not stupid enough to think what I’m exposed to or how I respond to it is something entirely within my control, though I can understand why that’s an attractive notion to some people. The possibility of dying from a disease you can’t control or protect yourself from no matter how much kale you eat is a frightening one indeed. I wish it didn’t exist, I really do.

            There are certain circumstances in which I might cut off or remove parts of my body if my risk of cancer were high enough, yes. Fortunately I haven’t had to make that decision as I don’t have any of the offending genes as far as I know, and thanks to vaccines, I don’t have to cut anything off to avoid vaccine preventable diseases.

          • Hoter
            November 30, 2015 at 5:39 pm #

            Hang on, only 30% of the people with the apparent ‘gene for breast cancer’ get breast cancer. Why don’t you look at the 60% who don’t and see that there is a way? It is crazy to assume it is all out of your control, what scientist told you that rubbish.
            What is scientific or different about bad luck and voodoo? Why on earth is what you are exposed to not in your control, who took that power away from you? Was it believing in the talisman of vaccines?

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 4:32 am #

            Dude, before giving out advice on this matter you might want to work out what 100% minus 30% is. It ain’t 60%.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 5:25 am #

            In H’s world it probably is. The problem is you don’t believe it.

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 6:33 am #

            Deep, man.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 6:01 am #

            Just checking you could add up. Now I have your attention, why do you think 100% don’t get breast cancer?

          • Sarah
            December 1, 2015 at 6:32 am #

            Course you were dear. I think 100% don’t get breast cancer because the offending gene doesn’t make it a certainty. Fortunately.

          • Who?
            December 1, 2015 at 7:15 am #

            Pathetic.

            Just own your mistake.

          • Sue
            December 1, 2015 at 1:34 am #

            What a load of nonsense this “Hoter” person hoots.

            We know why people get chronic Hep B. It;s called e Antigen.

          • MaineJen
            November 12, 2015 at 10:57 am #

            Wow, really. Please do educate me some more on the very topic I have spent much of my professional life studying.
            #Iworkinimmunogenetics
            #tryagain

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            November 12, 2015 at 11:13 am #

            But Jen, he’s “done his research.” How can you top that?

          • MaineJen
            November 12, 2015 at 11:17 am #

            Well, geez. You got me there. I guess all that work, starting way back in 1968 with Paul Terasaki and continuing to the present day with single-antigen antibody ID beads and flow cytometric crossmatching are all for naught.

            I’ll wait, so Hoter can have a chance to Google all that stuff. Maybe he can explain why we give immunosuppressants to transplant patients in the first place. After all, antibodies really don’t mean anything, right? Come to think of it, why do C4D staining either? Antibodies are useless, so why could complement deposition possibly matter?

          • Hoter
            November 14, 2015 at 9:51 am #

            Studying an effect rather than a cause is probably why you can understand, try again.

          • MaineJen
            November 16, 2015 at 9:28 am #

            You have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • demodocus
            November 16, 2015 at 10:34 am #

            I’m pretty sure that’s been long established. Not that I know beans about it either, but then *I* don’t insist I do. Hooray, Mrs. Truman and high school biology for giving me a vague idea.

          • MaineJen
            November 12, 2015 at 11:00 am #

            Also: maybe you could enlighten me as to why all of our patients with anti-HLA antibody tend to reject kidneys with that specific HLA. If it’s not too much trouble. The antibodies we test for seem to make a hell of a difference to them.

          • Megan
            November 12, 2015 at 11:50 am #

            I imagine antibodies also make a big difference to people like one of my patients with CVID as well.

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm #

            Or why they form ICs you can see in the biopsy, and fix complement. It’s not ABMR, it’s… Hotor Magic Rejection, or something.

          • yugaya
            November 17, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

            Nah that only happens from too much aspirin.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            November 12, 2015 at 11:12 am #

            Someone mentioned it the other day, but let me tell you about what is called “Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion” (you can look it up – it’s not just something that refers to here): When in an internet forum discussion, assume that someone participating knows more about the topic than you do.

            For example, this forum has participants that include, inter alia, immunologists. You know, those people who really and truly “do their research” into immunology?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 12, 2015 at 11:27 am #

            They’ve moved into germ theory denialism, what do you expect?

          • Roadstergal
            November 17, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

            And not just antibodies. According to Hodor, natalizumab should have no effect on multiple sclerosis or IBD, because it only affects the movement of (mostly) T-cells.

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 10:28 am #

            Catching disease is a weird medical idea, lots of people have ‘pathogens’ present but no disease, they are not just ‘carriers’, why don’t we study why these people are not succumbing to the pathogen?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 12, 2015 at 11:19 am #

            Yeah, I found exactly one place with that quote, and it was a crank site. Never mind the centuries of empirical proof we’ve had since Virchow’s day, whether he said that or not.

          • Sue
            December 1, 2015 at 1:32 am #

            “Hoter”- you’re stomping around on the blog site of a person trained as a medical specialist, and where many others are clinicians, scientists and academics.

            It looks very silly when you pontificate in an area you know so little about.

            “Orthodox” medical science DISCOVERED the immune system, and continues to define and explore the way it works.

          • Hoter
            December 1, 2015 at 3:53 am #

            Sue – medical science seems to spend lots of time finding ways to turn of the immune system as treatment! It is rather funny that the site is SOB, son of a bitch – kind of says something about the author.

            Bankers discovered credit, doesn’t mean they have a clue about it though.

            If this is the blog of a medical professional, we are all in the shit. I cannot believe the banality of the level of discussion on this blog. No wonder they kill so many people with blunders.

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 10:45 am #

            So if not, what is it?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 12, 2015 at 11:14 am #

            A system for responding to pathogens, foreign materials, and the occasional mutated cell.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 11, 2015 at 3:01 pm #

            You have not treated a lot of inmunocompromised patients, have you? Because you sound like someone that has absolutely no idea how that works.

            And, by the way, where did that number came from? How do you get to the 18 million inmunosupressed people? What sort of patients do you count there? Is it chemotherapy treatments? Liver transplant? Kidney transplant? Bone marrow transplant? methotrexate for treating rheumathoid arthritis? Because let me tell you, those people do have very little in common and the sort of infections they are prone to are very different.

          • Roadstergal
            November 11, 2015 at 3:06 pm #

            Ya, he’s not terribly smart nor knowledgeable. As another example, rituximab is technically ‘immunosuppressant,’ but immunities that existed prior to treatment are generally pretty well preserved (it does a poor job of depleting memory cells in tissue and doesn’t touch long-lived bone marrow plasma cells).

          • KarenJJ
            November 17, 2015 at 3:38 am #

            A lot of my family members take an immunoupressant medication (one of the biologics). It suppresses a very small part of the immune system. IgG etc are still going strong and we are fully vaccinated. We are tested and hold immunities and vaccines well. Just have one of those overachieving inflammatory systems that likes to cause havoc with other stuff.

    • Hoter
      November 9, 2015 at 2:57 pm #

      This is woo. No one catches pertussis.

      • Nick Sanders
        November 11, 2015 at 1:53 pm #

        Then how do they get it?

        • Roadstergal
          December 1, 2015 at 7:37 pm #

          Drinking and bad diet. It’s how Heather’s little baby got it, duh.

  11. Houston Mom
    November 6, 2015 at 11:40 am #

    Has anyone posted this yet. http://simplyborn.com/events/vaccine-informational-class The page seems to be down. I saw it last night. Apparently in January of 2015, Heather was teaching a vaccine class.

    “This class will be presented by Heather Dexter, Naturopathic Doctor, Holistic Doula and Bradley Birth Educator of Earth Mother’s Natural Health & Birth Services.

    Have you ever wondered why some parents may choose not to Vaccinate their kids? Have you Done your research? Do you know the Legalities of Vaccines in Michigan? Do you know the ingredients in Vaccines and what they are known to cause in the human body? Are you aware of the potential risks or side effects of Vaccines? Did you know that there are MANY natural alternatives to Vaccinations? Have you considered that Vaccinate is not synonymous with Immunize? Have you ever considered the risk of getting the virus’s or bacteria that we vaccinate for and looked into symptomology and realized, they aren’t that scary?”
    So for Heather, the symptomology of her children’s pertussis was “that scary”??? I can’t even get it out of the Google cache now except for text only. Here’s an image (hope it uploads ok).

    • MaineJen
      November 6, 2015 at 12:42 pm #

      Wasn’t this the *very same time* that all 3 of her children were suffering (and I do mean suffering) from pertussis? I wonder how many of her students knew that?

        • Hoter
          November 7, 2015 at 9:15 am #

          Nice appeal to emotion. But the white coat is now synonymous with fraud and dishonesty, especially focused blondes and techno jargon. They need to update this if they want to optimize market share.

          Perhaps if they had her on all fours, with her tongue out it would be more honest and definitely more eye catching. We’d at least find out if she was a real blonde or not – what do you think? Are you?

          • Sarah
            November 7, 2015 at 9:45 am #

            Your mum is.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 7, 2015 at 11:02 pm #

            There’s nothing to be gained by sinking to Hoter’s level.

          • Sarah
            November 8, 2015 at 3:37 am #

            I respectfully disagree.

          • Who?
            November 8, 2015 at 7:09 am #

            Thing is, Hoter is an idiot. It’s best to never argue with idiots: they just drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

            If the goal is to engage fence sitters, Hoter is a waste of time as bait-who will feel the urge to support his moronic views?

          • Sarah
            November 8, 2015 at 2:39 pm #

            My view, gleaned from many years of arguing on the internet, is that it’s best to meet trolls with trolling. You’re talking about someone who asked a poster if she was frotting a dildo (or was it felching? something like that anyway) in her avatar. There had already been a number of replies by this point, attempting to engage, so the wall of silence was no longer an option. Hence, when met by someone who is hiding under a bridge, pee on their head.

          • Who?
            November 8, 2015 at 5:04 pm #

            Fair enough.

          • Roadstergal
            November 9, 2015 at 3:59 pm #

            I just saw that. I was out of town this weekend and missed it all!

          • Hoter
            November 10, 2015 at 4:44 am #

            Not at all. When people are obviously quoting biased medical crap and are not prepared to discuss the fallacy of medical peer review, they are total assholes and need telling. The classic septic position has always been one of aggression and ridicule, rather than logical engagement, because medical supremacy is failing at the expense of the population.

            If someone pees on a head, they deserve a large piece of wood up the jacksie. I mean whooping cough vaccine is utterly utterly a failure, rates of whooping cough have been steadily climbing since the 90’s and this is in a largely vaccinated population.

            Keep your head in the sand, but don’t expect others to follow. You septics must be deaf dumb and blind or working in medical research and keen to get promotion. There is no other explanation, how on earth can you blindly follow medical peer review when the editors of these journals are openly telling us that it is all bullshit PR. without this you have absolutely nothing.

            You engage, without polemic and a desire to learn something and I will happily drop the toilet brush.

          • Sarah
            November 10, 2015 at 6:32 am #

            The only thing anyone here would learn from you is how to hang around under a bridge.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 9:57 am #

            You are the one engaged in a nightmare fantasy of delusion and denial, if that stinks, don’t blame it on me. Who posts on a site called SOBitch and expects to be taken seriously?

          • Sarah
            November 11, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            Your face.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 10, 2015 at 11:28 am #

            Steadily climbing because more and more people are forgetting what whooping cough used to be like, and refusing the vaccine, like you. It’s nowhere near where it was before the vaccine.

            http://holisticsquid.holisticsquid.netdna-cdn.com/holistickidwordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pertussis-vaccine-control-cdc12.jpg

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:14 am #

            This is doctor’s notifications Nick, it is totally open to bias on reporting otherwise known as passive reporting. The mortality graphs give the true picture. Even on this graph you can see now that rates are starting to go back up, 40,000 cases. Most of these are happening in totally vaccinated cohorts.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 11, 2015 at 1:38 pm #

            Yes, I can see they are going back up, and I explained why. But please, if you insist, offer some evidence that the increase is mostly in vaccinated individuals.

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 10:44 am #

            81% of children with whooping cough were fully vaccinated and highest incidence of disease was in the fully vaccinated group.
            Clinical Infectious Diseases Advance Access published March 15, 2012

            During 2010, California experienced the largest epidemic of pertussis in 53 years. Statewide, the incidence was 20 cases per 100,000 people. [12] This is the highest rate in California since 1958, when there was an incidence of 26 cases per 100,000. [12] Marin County had the second highest incidence in the state, with 136.48 cases per 100,000 people.

            [12]San Rafael Kaiser Permanente Medical Center was at
            the epicenter of this epidemic. In reviewing
            cases confirmed at our medical center during this outbreak, we noted effective protection of younger children. Our unvaccinated and under-vaccinated population did not appear to contribute significantly to the increased rate of clinical pertussis. Surprisingly, the highest incidence of disease was among previously vaccinated children in the eight to twelve year age group.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 12, 2015 at 11:15 am #

            Ok, so you have proven that in one particular outbreak most of the children were vaccinated. One data point does not make a trend.

          • Wren
            November 12, 2015 at 11:27 am #

            Whooping cough immunity, whether acquired via the disease itself or vaccination, is not lifelong.

          • Hoter
            November 14, 2015 at 9:43 am #

            That is interesting Wren. It’s a bollocks statement you have posted. One would ask then ‘what is the point of getting the vaccine?’

          • Wren
            November 14, 2015 at 12:56 pm #

            Infants and young children are most at risk of death or permanent injury from pertussis. Stopping them getting it is benefit enough.

          • Hoter
            November 14, 2015 at 4:51 pm #

            It is just so sad that you think the only thing that protects anyone from illness is medicine. You are so in the dark ages and behind.

          • Wren
            November 14, 2015 at 6:28 pm #

            Yes, vaccines and not losing multiple children to illness before the age of 5 is just so dark ages. It’s the hallmark of the period.

          • Hoter
            November 16, 2015 at 8:13 am #

            It is remarkable how malnutrition, sewage and water infrastructure, central heating and better town planning don’t feature on the vaccine believers’ radar, We got rid of plague by demolishing slums and opening up cities – where were the antibiotics and vaccines then?

          • Wren
            November 16, 2015 at 9:00 am #

            There is no one who doubts those had effects, but oddly none of those eliminated small pox but vaccination did. Funny that, huh?

          • Hoter
            November 16, 2015 at 11:24 am #

            Who told you that septic meme, vaccination didn’t get rid of smallpox, Jenner didn’t think so, jeez, it is so tiring reading the banal incoherence in your posts.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 16, 2015 at 11:37 am #

            http://cdn.meme.am/instances/49016078.jpg

          • Wren
            November 16, 2015 at 11:47 am #

            It was clearly the clean water and healthy diet. Duh!

          • Nick Sanders
            November 17, 2015 at 3:07 pm #

            A decade or so of protection per shot is the point. Maybe you should ask why you bother eating, if you’re just going to be hungry again later.

          • Hoter
            November 12, 2015 at 10:46 am #

            This graph is worthless, it is MD notifications and totally open to practitioner bias. Look at mortality graphs, you get the real picture. Please don’t use appeals to notification as evidence.

          • Sarah
            November 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm #

            The toilet brush is lodged in your brain.

          • yugaya
            November 8, 2015 at 6:24 am #

            Full plate of ignorance served with a side dish of utter misogyny.

          • Who?
            November 8, 2015 at 5:32 pm #

            So far we have racism, misogyny, physical characteristics and appearance and his idea of what sounds ‘well educated’ to him that Hoter uses to draw his conclusions: my guess is that’s how he ‘does his research’-by looking at people and agreeing with the ones he approves of the look of.

            It’s a method, but not a good one.

          • SporkParade
            November 8, 2015 at 8:00 am #

            I just want to go to a dance club so I can hear this “techno jargon.”

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            November 9, 2015 at 9:58 am #

            So, now you have gone from showing your ignorance of science and history to showing you are just all around ignorant. Nice

          • MaineJen
            November 9, 2015 at 11:10 am #

            w…t…f

          • Hoter
            November 9, 2015 at 2:54 pm #

            I know, they always use some pretty sheek geek slim blonde to show the ‘proper science’. Someone should call them out on it.

          • MaineJen
            November 10, 2015 at 9:15 am #

            So. Attractive women can’t do science, according to Hoter. Got it, everybody? That is the sum-total of information Hoter gleaned from the above meme.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:07 am #

            Why do they use a picture of some fictitious person looking all sciency? I didn’t post the picture, one of your buddies did. We all know sex sells, it just seems very inappropriate here and I find it weird you find it acceptable.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 11, 2015 at 3:15 pm #

            Well, you know, we have brains under the hair. Even if we are blonde. Working inside a lab, without direct sunlight helps to keep your skin without wrinkles by the way.

          • Lala
            November 14, 2015 at 9:27 pm #

            You know what’s funny? That actually looks just like my friend Meg. She happens to be blonde, and attractive, but she does neuroscience, not immunological research–is that okay in your book? Or is it just hot blondes that can’t do immunology?

          • Linden
            November 10, 2015 at 4:44 am #

            It’s great when misogyny is the excremental filling that holds together the twin sponges of ignorance and dishonesty. Enjoy your Victoria sponge alone, please.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 9:55 am #

            I suppose you are right, an unshaven bloke with tatoos just wouldn’t pull the punters in, nor would someone who was dark skinned either. Eat humble pie.

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 9:43 pm #

            Wow, an idiot, a mysognist, AND probably an anti-semite. Triple whammy! Not that I’m surprised.

          • Hoter
            November 11, 2015 at 10:15 am #

            It is hard to support using sex to sell vaccines and also to warm to a religious group that cuts the end of the penis off from new born babies for ‘religious reasons’. This is real child abuse, have you still got your foreskin?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 11, 2015 at 1:59 pm #

            using sex to sell vaccines

            Please, now you’re just getting desperate.

          • Roadstergal
            November 11, 2015 at 2:51 pm #

            Oh, man, I wish they would. I mean, I get the flu vax every year and all of my boosters on schedule, but I wouldn’t say no to getting some nookie as a bonus. Better than a Barney Band-Aid.

    • Bugsy
      November 7, 2015 at 10:12 am #

      Well, in all fairness, as soon as I see “Done your research” in capitals then I know it’s a legitimate science- and evidence -based class!

  12. Tess
    November 6, 2015 at 9:51 am #

    Another one. It is almost a contest, the sicker your kids the more points you get for being “natural.” http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2013/10/31/when-you-play-the-vaccine-odds-and-lose/

    • An Actual Attorney
      November 6, 2015 at 10:56 am #

      Classy how she works in product placements too.

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:16 am #

      That would make the millions of kids on asthma inhailers and epi pens top healthy, well done.

      • Sarah
        November 7, 2015 at 9:46 am #

        Well bum.

        • Hoter
          November 10, 2015 at 4:45 am #

          Is that really all you have to offer? do you have kids or are you just a loner

          • Sarah
            November 10, 2015 at 6:30 am #

            It’s all you’re worth. Check my posting history if you want to know how many kids I have.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        November 9, 2015 at 9:59 am #

        That is not at all how it works.

    • sdsures
      November 7, 2015 at 2:49 pm #

      Gosh. I was a 28-week preemie. My mom went for all the medical treatments the NICU and pediatrician could give to ensure my survival and good QoL. Silly her. I must be an anomaly.

  13. sdsures
    November 5, 2015 at 7:36 pm #

    I guess fatherly intuition (you know, the other parent who is so much less important than Heather) doesn’t count. Shame on him, trying to save his children’s lives like that!

    • Cathy
      November 6, 2015 at 10:31 am #

      I hope he divorces her. Dad has a rock-solid case for sole custody.

      • sdsures
        November 7, 2015 at 2:50 pm #

        Pity that what we know about him only gets filtered through her words.

        • Box of Salt
          November 7, 2015 at 11:36 pm #

          sdsures “Pity that what we know about him only gets filtered through her words.”

          Her words indicate he took no action to provide appropriate medical care for his children.

          • sdsures
            November 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm #

            Or she prevented him from doing so.

          • Who?
            November 8, 2015 at 7:45 pm #

            He’s an adult. At some point, unless she tied them all up, threatened them with a weapon, or otherwise physically detained them in some way, he could have chosen to do something.

            I know it would have been really hard, and might have felt like a marriage-ending activity, but the reality is lives were at stake. At some level he chose domestic peace, in terms laid out by her, over three lives.

      • Katia
        November 7, 2015 at 9:22 pm #

        I have to disagree, Cath. He didn’t get any care for them. He let her go ahead with her craziness.

        • Nick Sanders
          November 7, 2015 at 11:03 pm #

          I think a better case would be made for foster care.

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 9:51 pm #

            It’s unlikely they would be removed to foster care and, frankly, that’s not what anybody wants for kids, including the social workers who do the removing. If they were to be removed from the home, they’d probably be placed with family members–possibly the grandparents, at least one of whom seems to have some sense.

        • Cathy
          November 8, 2015 at 3:02 am #

          Good point.

    • Katia
      November 7, 2015 at 9:22 pm #

      What’d he do?

  14. sdsures
    November 5, 2015 at 7:10 pm #

    This is horrific. Can’t she be charged with negligence? Parental neglect?

    • FigaroPho
      November 6, 2015 at 4:29 am #

      I think the definitions of child abuse and neglect in the Michigan Child Protection Law (which I’ve posted below in quotes) indicate that she could be charged. She failed to provide adequate medical care and then IMO subjected them to maltreatment by inflicting enemas on them while they were seriously ill and there is no conceivable way that enemas could help their condition.

      “Child Abuse: Harm or threatened harm to a child’s
      health or welfare that occurs through non-accidental physical or mental injury, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, or maltreatment, by a parent, a legal guardian, or any other person responsible for the child’s health or welfare or by a teacher, a teacher’s aide, or a member of the clergy.

      Child Neglect: Harm or threatened harm to a child’s
      health or welfare by a parent, legal guardian, or any other person
      responsible for the child’s health or welfare that occurs through either of the following:

      Negligent treatment, including the failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care.

      Placing a child at an unreasonable risk to the child’s health or
      welfare by failure of the parent, legal guardian, or other person
      responsible for the child’s health or welfare to intervene to eliminate
      that risk when that person is able to do so and has, or should have,
      knowledge of the risk.”

      • Daleth
        November 6, 2015 at 1:21 pm #

        Does anyone know where in Michigan she is?

      • sdsures
        November 7, 2015 at 2:39 pm #

        This was not an accident, if I uderstood her blog post correctly. She knew damned well what she was doing.

        In my view, it’s as abusive as when a Christian Scientist family refuses to get their child medical treatment that would either repair injuries or save their lives.

        Example: My mom had a schoolmate whose parents were Christian Scientists. The friend broke her collar bone (circumstances unknown, late 1950s-early to mid 1960s).

        The parents never took her to the ER or to the doctor, and as a result, it healed improperly. 🙁

        I don’t have personal or professional experience with a broken collar bone, but it sounds very painful. I’ve only had a few minor fractures, and they were not fun, but I had decent medical care and pain relief.

      • Katia
        November 7, 2015 at 9:24 pm #

        Having worked with the child protection people (not FOR them mind you) years ago, I think that unfortunately what would happen is they would say the kids are OK now so they’re not going to do anything. JMO. I’m not a lawyer.

  15. FortyMegabytes
    November 5, 2015 at 5:50 pm #

    Looks like she removed the revised, softer version of her post. It seems like she realized that no version of the events can make her look less like a monstrously bad parent.

    • sdsures
      November 7, 2015 at 2:51 pm #

      Replace “monstrously bad parent” with “criminal who needs to be arrested”, and I’m with you. Let’s call her out for what she is.

  16. Alyson Trent
    November 4, 2015 at 8:44 am #

    I am honestly curious as to why she believes that vaccinated children were spreading the whooping cough in her area.

    • yentavegan
      November 4, 2015 at 11:48 am #

      because her truth does not belong to all of humanity?

    • demodocus
      November 4, 2015 at 12:27 pm #

      Everyone knows vaccines shed for, like, years. Natch.

  17. Grace Adieu
    November 4, 2015 at 4:08 am #

    “My children developed REAL and TRUE immunity from being exposed to this bacteria and fighting it off naturally.”

    Talk about closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

    Medical neglect aside, how is it not child abuse to force enemas on your desperately sick children?

    • Who?
      November 4, 2015 at 4:29 am #

      And quite how putting things in through the out door-whatever those things comprise-is natural is a bit challenging as well.

    • KarenJJ
      November 4, 2015 at 4:35 am #

      Yes. Trying to give my sick kids a panadol suppository was tough at times. Once they got past toddlerhood I’d ask them first and give them the option of suppository or the liquid suspension. Doing enemas on a sick kid sounds horrific. Poor kids..

      • NoLongerCrunching
        November 5, 2015 at 11:44 am #

        I had to give doctor-prescribed enemas to my 5-year-old due to idiopathic constipation/encopresis. I cried after each and every one. Thankfully now we have an effective top-down solution.

    • sdsures
      November 7, 2015 at 3:04 pm #

      I can’t help but wonder if Heather is stuck in what used to be called the “anal” stage of psychosexual development, and that’s why she insisted on giving her sick kids enemas when there was absolutely no medical justification for it whatsoever.

      “Sigmund Freud proposed that if the child [in this case, Heather] experienced sexual frustration in relation to any psychosexual developmental stage, he or she would experienceanxiety that would persist into adulthood as a neurosis, a functional mental disorder.” (Wiki: psychosexual development)

      As you might expect from modern psychology and psychiatry, this process and teaching of this theory gradually faded over time as regards to practice and working with patients. It’s now mainly taught as part of introductory psychology and psychiatry courses to familiarize students with the history of the field. For example, Freud’s theories on human psychological development helped shape those of Erikson.

      Erik Erikson was a developmental psychologist who came up with the psychosocial developmental theory of humans. This has much less of the psychosexual aspect to it, but what both Freud and Erikson share is material relating to the id, the ego and the superego.

      • cateye
        November 8, 2015 at 9:26 am #

        While there are are rarely, if ever, medical reasons for enemas, in this case her ND advised her to do it.

        • sdsures
          November 8, 2015 at 2:19 pm #

          Somehow, I’m thinking a Naturopathic Doctor isn’t a real MD.

          • cateye
            November 8, 2015 at 5:47 pm #

            Agreed. I was just arguing against her thought process being “Oh. You’re sick? Great! I can give you an enema/I have an excuse to give you an enema.”

    • Azuran
      November 8, 2015 at 9:53 am #

      I love the part where they talk about their natural and true immunity.

      You voluntarily expose your kid to a disease…….so that they can catch the disease, and then get sick so they can develop immunity against the disease?
      So, you gave a disease to your kid so they wouldn’t get the disease?

      It’s like they took the old chickenpox principle many parents and grandparents had before there was a vaccine: ‘Everyone get’s chickenpox and the older you are the more dangerous it’s gonna be so you should make sure you get it early’. And then they applied it to every single disease out there.

  18. seekingbalance
    November 4, 2015 at 1:47 am #

    just got the new JAMA in the mail today. research article: “Hospital-Diagnosed Pertussis Infection in Children and Long-term risk of Epilepsy.” I haven’t read the article yet (to scrutinize the methods), but I’ll share the conclusion posted in the abstract (spoiler alert!). Risk of epilepsy *is* increased in kids with hospital-diagnosed pertussis…. {sigh} yet another downside to failing to protect your family from preventable diseases. these poor kids.

    ETA: oops, sorry. just saw that a few of you already noted that. I read a bunch of the comments yesterday but was intimidated by the almost 600 that are now here. my bad!

    • Katia
      November 7, 2015 at 9:26 pm #

      Not bad at all. Different people see different parts of this board. It doesn’t hurt for things to be repeated. H*ll, the anti-vaxers do it all the time!

      • seekingbalance
        November 10, 2015 at 5:52 pm #

        ahh, good point. wait, was I just compared to an anti-vaxer????!!!!?? 😉

        • Katia
          November 10, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

          No, no, no and NO! I did not mean it that way.

          • seekingbalance
            November 10, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

            just teasing. see winky-smiley face! 🙂

  19. Sue
    November 4, 2015 at 1:14 am #

    Will this family volunteer their children for that (supposedly) long-awaited health study comparing the health of the vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

    (Or should we just accept the established findings that unvaxed kids get more VPDs, and worse cases?)

  20. Sue
    November 3, 2015 at 11:52 pm #

    Meanwhile on Like-Minded Mamas…recipe for caramel popcorn, claiming “You will not find any sugar, high fructose corn syrup or artificial flavors here! ”

    So – you ask, how can you make caramel without sugar?

    Here is the recipe:

    Love
    ¾ Cup Non-GMO Heirloom Popcorn Seeds
    1 Tablespoon Butter or Coconut Oil
    ½ Cup Butter
    ½ Cup Raw Local Honey
    2 Tablespoons Unsulfured Blackstrap Molasses
    1 Teaspoon Cinnamon
    1 Teaspoon Unrefined Salt

    Cos, if it’s HEIRLOOM corn, RAW LOCAL honey and UNSULFURED molasses, it has to be good for you, no? None of that evil, toxic fructose stuff…no..wait…

    • Who?
      November 4, 2015 at 1:15 am #

      This makes me nuts. My yoga teacher is forever going on about not eating sugar, being really careful about fruit intake so as to not have too much sugar, but then cooks with the things you mention, coconut sugar (no I’m not joking) and who knows what other ‘natural’ sweeteners, including stevia.

      She assures me this is all fab, including the stevia which has terrible aftertaste.

      • November 4, 2015 at 2:45 am #

        Stevia may taste awful, but it doesn’t have calories.

        • Who?
          November 4, 2015 at 3:31 am #

          Nothing with stevia has any calories at all for me, since I won’t eat it 😉

          • Hoter
            November 7, 2015 at 9:30 am #

            Hey who, way to go.

      • Dana Carpender
        November 6, 2015 at 12:18 pm #

        I didn’t use stevia for years because of the bitterness. I’ve found that the liquid stevia extracts are actually quite good in many applications; I often combine them with erythritol.

    • Megan
      November 4, 2015 at 9:15 am #

      Meanwhile, by my calculations, that recipe contains 169g of sugar. Not sure what the serving size is but I know if it were me, I’d eat the whole thing. 🙂

      • demodocus
        November 4, 2015 at 12:30 pm #

        If memory serves, 1/4 cup of kernels is a serving, so 3-ish?

        • Megan
          November 4, 2015 at 1:28 pm #

          So just over 56g of sugar per serving. Yeah that sounsd healthy…right up there with a large Mountain Dew. *headdesk*

          • Katia
            November 7, 2015 at 9:28 pm #

            About 240 calories of sugar by my “mental math”.

      • Hoter
        November 7, 2015 at 9:29 am #

        hey way to go dork

    • Roadstergal
      November 5, 2015 at 11:59 am #

      But it’s honey and molasses fructose, which is totally different from Evil Corn Fructose! Man, non-GMO popcorn – does teosinte pop?

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        November 6, 2015 at 1:06 pm #

        Honey has natural high fructose sucrose.

        • Hoter
          November 7, 2015 at 9:29 am #

          Natural honey, non heated, doesn’t run. It is also alive with enzymes. The processed crap you are mentioning may indeed be chemically the same, but the stuff straight out of the comb is not.

          It is like pasterised milk, sterile and dead and useless nutritionally. Raw milk, but has to be clean, is a different product.

          Why is it so many of you are food illiterate? It is making your posts read like first grade rejects

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            November 7, 2015 at 12:06 pm #

            I guess when you are completely lost reality looks really foreign.

          • Tiffany Aching
            November 7, 2015 at 5:20 pm #

            You do realize that you sound like a complete nutjob and actually help people here proving their point?

      • Petra Lorre
        November 7, 2015 at 12:25 am #

        Ack! Molasses IS sugar! What an ostrich. Molasses is just cane syrup that’s been cooked longer, pretty much.

        • Hoter
          November 7, 2015 at 9:27 am #

          No it isn’t, it is the stuff straight out of the cane sap, crystallized you jerk.

          • Azuran
            November 7, 2015 at 9:34 am #

            hum, no, molasse is a by-product of the refining of sugar cane or sugar beets into sugar.

          • Petra Lorre
            November 7, 2015 at 9:26 pm #

            Yeah, I just googled it and it seems that the molasses is what’s left after sugar crystals are removed from the boiled syrup. Either way, what makes molasses sweet is still sugar as it still contains sucrose, glucose, and fructose.

          • Petra Lorre
            November 7, 2015 at 9:15 pm #

            Ah, I see. It’s something my grandmother told me, but she was a kid when she’d lived on a sugar cane farm, so I guess she got her wires crossed. I am curious though, why does having been mistaken about molasses make me a jerk?

            Edit: Never mind.

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 10:05 pm #

            You weren’t even wrong. Cane juice is what comes directly out of the cane. Blackstrap molasses is what’s left after the sugar refining process, basically.

          • Petticoat Philosopher
            November 10, 2015 at 10:04 pm #

            Your ignorance is boundless. No, blackstrap molasses is not what comes directly out of the cane. It is the byproduct of the sugar refining process. What comes directly out of the cane is cane juice which is thin, light green, and can be drunk straight.

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:26 am #

      You have missed the point. Black strap molasses is not processed. It is still rich in B vitamins that help the sugars metabolize. Purified sugar, without the black stuff, strips the b vits out of your kid to stop the sugar fermenting and that is why the former doesn’t have the same hyper effects that the latter does.

      Try it – it works, but don’t expect to find an industry funded paper on it.

      • Katia
        November 7, 2015 at 9:27 pm #

        But you’d have to consume gallons of it to get sufficient vitamins.

        • Hoter
          November 8, 2015 at 8:25 am #

          You have missed the point. Unrefined sugar has nutrition in it, the refined white stuff is poisonous.

          Also who eats that soley for vitamins, it would be part of a balance diet you twit.

          • Katia
            November 8, 2015 at 9:16 am #

            Unrefined sugar has few nutrients in the quantities generally consumed.

          • Hoter
            November 8, 2015 at 1:37 pm #

            The big issue is the amount of refined white sugar and corn syrup that is added to food to up the ‘yummy’ factor. This has been allowed to creep up and needs to change because the biggest killers heart disease and diabetes are directly related to diet. If you sort your sugar intake out, cholesterol falls – statins are a total bullshit diversion

          • Nick Sanders
            November 8, 2015 at 1:56 pm #

            And this recipe is any different?

          • Hoter
            November 8, 2015 at 4:11 pm #

            Hi Nic, glad to see you almost got a sentence out. I think they need to pay better orators, the previous one seemed to scramble their metaphors. Do you believe in vaccination?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 8, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

            About as much as I “believe” in the internal combustion engine or microchips.

          • Box of Salt
            November 8, 2015 at 5:24 pm #

            Hoter “Unrefined sugar has nutrition in it, the refined white stuff is poisonous.”

            “Also who eats that soley for vitamins, it would be part of a balance diet”

            If your diet is balanced, why would you need to eat molasses for the extra B vitamins?

            Is it hard work being this gullible?

      • Nick Sanders
        November 7, 2015 at 11:06 pm #

        It’s still sugar, therefore, the claim that “You will not find any sugar, high fructose corn syrup or artificial flavors here!”is patently false.

      • Petticoat Philosopher
        November 10, 2015 at 9:58 pm #

        Of course it is processed. Do you think it grows out of the ground as blackstrap molasses?

        Vitamins are good but there are other foods to get them from. A high-sugar food is a high-sugar food and too much is not advisable, no matter the source.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      November 9, 2015 at 4:55 am #

      Actually, it doesn’t sound half bad as a recipe, if you remove all the woo bits. (I get my popcorn from commercial sources and neither know nor care whether it was produced via controlled or random mutations). But it’s a sweet, a dessert, a high sugar dish, no matter how you look at it. The claim that it’s without sugar is ridiculous.

  21. areawomanpdx
    November 3, 2015 at 10:43 pm #

    I think she’s deleted the Facebook page where people were reviewing her abject quackery.

    • Karen in SC
      November 3, 2015 at 11:12 pm #

      Good. Hit ’em where it hurts, the wallet.

  22. Roadstergal
    November 3, 2015 at 6:34 pm #

    Let me guess – the imaginary ‘toxins’ in vaccines are worse than the _actual_ pertussis toxin. Which the kids spent months flooded with.

    “Like-minded moms” – assuming facts not in evidence, with that name.

    • KarenJJ
      November 4, 2015 at 4:38 am #

      I’m hoping that there’s not a lot of like-minded moms like her.

    • Hoter
      November 7, 2015 at 9:31 am #

      Are you frotting on a dildo in your avatar? Is that where you got your name?

  23. Daleth
    November 3, 2015 at 5:32 pm #

    Looks like she may have doubled her kids’ risk of developing epilepsy:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/11/03/surprise-link-between-epilepsy-and-whooping-cough-whats-the-connection/

    • Nick Sanders
      November 3, 2015 at 5:33 pm #

      I posted that earlier today 🙂

    • Who?
      November 3, 2015 at 8:05 pm #

      Yes but they got it natcherally. So that’s okay.

      Just imagine what she and her naturopath buddies will do to deal with their epilepsy should they be so unfortunate as to be inflicted with it.

      • Nick Sanders
        November 3, 2015 at 8:31 pm #

        Probably cannabis oil, since it apparently cures everything.

        • Who?
          November 3, 2015 at 9:27 pm #

          A children’s hospital here is going to do a study on cannabis oil, will be interesting to see how it goes.

          Remember 5 years ago when fish oil cured everything, and prevented many more things? Will be interesting to see if cannabis oil goes the same way.

          • Sue
            November 4, 2015 at 5:15 am #

            I suspect there will be no miracles. Like morphine, cannabis is a psycho-active substance that binds intrinsic receptors. That doesn’t make it a “cure” for anything, but it may suppress seizures, as benzodiazepines do.

          • Roadstergal
            November 6, 2015 at 4:04 pm #

            It cures my cupboard of excess corn chips.

        • Houston Mom
          November 3, 2015 at 9:36 pm #

          I googled naturopathic treatment for epilepsy. Looks like supplements, detoxification, avoiding sugar, artificial sweeteners, gluten, dairy and various forms of radiation. So if one of them is unfortunate enough to have epilepsy, it’s going to be another bout of medical neglect. I would wonder if Heather would find an excuse to throw in more enemas and tongue cutting.

          • Sue
            November 4, 2015 at 5:13 am #

            Aren’t “supplements, detoxification, avoiding sugar, artificial sweeteners, gluten, dairy” the naturopathic cures for everything?

            Just roll the dice, pick one. Or many.

          • Dana Carpender
            November 6, 2015 at 12:21 pm #

            She’d need to drop the grains and “natural” sugars, too. A ketogenic diet does, indeed, have a long history of treating seizures.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            November 6, 2015 at 3:25 pm #

            There is something natural that helps with some forms of epilepsy extra dietary fat. You still need medication though.

  24. kellymbray
    November 3, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

    Looks like the original post is back. Can anyone else see this?

    http://likemindedmamas.com/natural-remedies-whooping-cough/

    • Chi
      November 3, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

      Confirmed, I can access it.

      • kellymbray
        November 3, 2015 at 4:02 pm #

        Her ego will not let her delete it.

        • Chi
          November 3, 2015 at 4:05 pm #

          Yep. She needs the affirmations from other crunchy idiots to make herself feel good about the whole thing.

          I hope she still feels good when CPS shows up on her doorstep.

          • Bugsy
            November 3, 2015 at 4:40 pm #

            Agreed. The other crunchy moms also probably encouraged her to repost it – “don’t let the bullies and online trolls win out when _you_ are following your mama bear instinct!”

    • yugaya
      November 3, 2015 at 5:15 pm #

      With footnotes. She’s a parody of a decent human being.

    • Charybdis
      November 3, 2015 at 5:17 pm #

      It’s been edited. She removed the part where her dad tells her that it is now time for antibiotics and the part where she packs up the kids and her myriad of natural remedies and heads off to her parents house so she can have four extra hands to dose her kids with an incessant, never-ending round of remedies and enemas.

      • Who?
        November 3, 2015 at 5:23 pm #

        How did Grandad not abduct the kids and take them to the doctor/hospital?

        Seriously, I’d do it and suck up the consequences.

      • Chione
        November 3, 2015 at 5:24 pm #

        Hmm. There was earlier some discussion about vets and their status as mandatory reporters, could it be that some of the backlash is actually reaching her parents? She’s a sad, deluded fool though, if she thinks that there aren’t already myriad copies of the original text floating around the internet.

      • kellymbray
        November 3, 2015 at 5:30 pm #

        I have a google cached link to the original. Let me find it.

      • Fallow
        November 3, 2015 at 5:43 pm #

        People need to fill the comments with links to the original. I’d do it myself, but I’d have to look at those idiotic supportive you-go-momma comments while I was there. Can’t do. I’m concerned my blood pressure is already too high today.

      • areawomanpdx
        November 3, 2015 at 6:08 pm #

        It’s like the time Modern Alternative Mama told the Internet she would be OK if her daughter died, as long as she still had her son, because her daughter was born via cesarean and then reconsidered when the Internet realized what an awful human being she was. She edited, but the original version was still everywhere. The internet never forgets, you nitwits.

        • Who?
          November 3, 2015 at 6:43 pm #

          I think we’ve all done things it would be kinder for others to forget. For most of us, that doesn’t include gleefully relating child abuse, or conducting a favourites competition among our children, particularly when the desirable attribute has nothing to do with the child, and is, to be blunt, a direct result of our own decision.

          These people are Not Right.

        • Lemongrass
          November 3, 2015 at 10:11 pm #

          Do you have a link to the original modern alternative mama post? I’ve only ever seen the heavily edited version 🙁

      • Hilary
        November 3, 2015 at 7:49 pm #

        Whatever. She can edit the post all she wants, but she’d have to edit her actual personality and belief system in order not to come off as an abusive idiot.

        • Who?
          November 3, 2015 at 7:54 pm #

          To this crowd, she’s an abusive idiot, with a taste for risk where her children are concerned that most of us consider immoderate.

          To her home crowd, she’s a healing hero. Because they don’t think children (or at least, not white, organically grown, gmo averse, whatever else nonsense they’re buying into this week) die or are permanently harmed by these illnesses. They are also very happy to play the martyr/hero/victim (apparently entirely without irony) in the weeks of debilitating illness story.

          I know which crowd I’d rather be in.

          • Sue
            November 3, 2015 at 8:37 pm #

            I seems hard to believe that anyone would consider that long, long illness in all three kids to have been modified in any way by her efforts.

          • Chi
            November 3, 2015 at 8:41 pm #

            Exactly. She didn’t ‘heal’ anything. Her kids SURVIVED it, which to be blunt seems to be through sheer dumb luck, rather than anything she or her naturopathic doctor did.

            But of course, because her kids got through it without needing ebil ebil shill doctors and the drugs they push, she’s patting herself on the back for keeping it all ‘natural’.

            I’ve used the word disgusting many times to describe it and that’s still how I feel. It’s disgusting that ANY parent could put their own ideals and beliefs above their children’s health and well-being. She’s as bad as parents who believe that prayer can ‘cure’ their insulin dependent child, or the ones who are gullible enough to believe that bleach enemas ‘cure’ autism.

          • Who?
            November 3, 2015 at 9:31 pm #

            It’s her truth, Sue, and therefore unassailable by your truth, or mine, let alone by anyone’s actual knowledge to the contrary.

    • yugaya
      November 3, 2015 at 5:18 pm #

      She also edited out the most obnoxious self- congratulatory parts like “This mother conquered.”

    • lilin
      November 3, 2015 at 7:22 pm #

      I commented. I doubt my comment will make it out of moderation.

    • Sue
      November 3, 2015 at 8:24 pm #

      “MY HUSBAND HAD ALREADY DETERMINED THAT OUR KIDDOS HAD “CAUGHT” THE 100 DAY COUGH…THE WHOOP…PERTUSSIS OR WHOOPING COUGH. WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. AGAIN, HE WAS RIGHT AND I… I WAS IN DENIAL.”

      So much for the clinical skills of this “certified naturopath”

      • Sue
        November 3, 2015 at 8:28 pm #

        And this, from a person purporting to be a health care provider:
        “Part of me felt blind-sided and hurt, unsupported and ready to blow…that was the exhausted me. I took a deep breath and looked away, thinking before I spoke. I knew he had always been and still is the logical one. I react emotionally, instinctively, often times before my mind has fully connected with my words. My truth just seems to spill easily from my mouth, a lot of times without the sweetness of being sugar-coated… just bluntness, pure honesty. However, I have learned that my truth does not belong to all of humanity. Each person is entitled to their beliefs and logic or training.”

        • Sue
          November 3, 2015 at 8:30 pm #

          “it is just a super slow process due to the lack of experience, or on the job training, done by their immune systems”

          Exactly. Because they HADN’T BEEN VACCINATED!!

          Vaccination: on-the-job training for a child’s immune system while sparing them the full force of the infection.

          • Sue
            November 3, 2015 at 8:32 pm #

            “This was the point in time when I was under the impression that I could not be my family’s doctor. I hadn’t considered taking each child and creating a program that was the most conducive to their individual healing. Today, I truly believe differently. Lesson learned. I believe that no one is better equipped to be the family doctor than Mama or Grand-mamma, given the right training.”

            Highly unprofessional AND insightless.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            November 3, 2015 at 8:45 pm #

            In general, most doctors feel it’s better not to treat their own family as it’s impossible to be truly objective in that situation.

          • Sue
            November 4, 2015 at 1:11 am #

            Indeed. It’s recommended by regulators that they don’t.

          • Dr Kitty
            November 4, 2015 at 8:34 am #

            I *will* look at tonsils, rashes and tympanic membranes, dip urines and listen to chests for my husband and kids…purely to determine if we need to go to see the doctor or not ( because I’m not wasting everyone’s time with simple viral infections).

            I don’t prescribe ANYTHING for them (or me) and if our Dr doesn’t think they need something, they don’t get it.

            You cannot treat your family properly, because you cannot be objective.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            November 4, 2015 at 9:32 am #

            I must admit that I did give my husband an antibiotic prescription for the pretty nasty tonsillitis he had a while back, but if there were any signs of complications or it not working, I would have marched him straight off to another doctor. It was hard enough to get him to take a day off work, let alone go to a GP (he’s also a doctor and therefore a terrible patient). I don’t plan on doing anything beyond what you’ve listed for my son – I have virtually no paeds experience and would far prefer to see a GP than take any risks.

          • Dana Carpender
            November 6, 2015 at 12:26 pm #

            How about complicated viral infections? 🙂

            My childhood pediatrician gave my mother this rule of thumb: If the patient feels considerably better during the day, worse at night, it’s probably a virus. If they feel equally wretched ’round the clock, it’s probably bacterial. Not graven in stone, but it’s been a useful metric.

          • Hoter
            November 7, 2015 at 9:34 am #

            I got vaccinated for whooping cough and I got whooping cough, I am not alone.

          • Nick Sanders
            November 8, 2015 at 1:57 pm #

            And some people have caught it “naturally” more than once. What’s your point?

          • Hoter
            November 8, 2015 at 4:13 pm #

            Uh, Nick, forgive me If I misunderstand your confusion. Whooping cough vaccine doesn’t work, it never has, we have a cycle,every 3.4 years. That means it isn’t working. How do you spin it?

          • Nick Sanders
            November 8, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

            Prove there’s a cycle.

          • Azuran
            November 8, 2015 at 5:07 pm #

            And prove that this ‘cycle’ affect vaccinated and unvaccinated people equally. Totally possible that you got the vaccine and then had whopping cough. Doesn’t prove that the vaccine is totally useless 100% of the time. It just means that it’s not effective 100% of the time. Which, surprise, is common knowledge.

          • Box of Salt
            November 8, 2015 at 5:36 pm #

            Hoter “I got vaccinated for whooping cough and I got whooping cough”

            whole cell P or acellular P vaccine? When was your last booster (before becoming ill).

            How long were you coughing? In weeks, please.

        • Who?
          November 3, 2015 at 9:29 pm #

          Defending herself with ‘my truth’.

          So whatever poisonous nonsense floods forth can’t be challenged, because it is her ‘truth’?

          That is grotesque.

    • Wombat
      November 4, 2015 at 12:10 am #

      Ooo my comment is awaiting moderation. I’d wait on bated breath but I’m not into alternative means of ‘loving’ on my death reflexes.

  25. kellymbray
    November 3, 2015 at 3:56 pm #

    A number of people contacted CPS after reading about this. She left quite a trail and was easy to track down. I hope CPS acts on this and I hope her husband leaves with the kids.

  26. Fallow
    November 3, 2015 at 2:45 pm #

    Lest we hoped that the cult of Heather Dexter would be at all swayed by the mountains of backlash that she got for criminal child negligence:

    • Nick Sanders
      November 3, 2015 at 3:00 pm #

      I think you forgot to include your link.

      • Fallow
        November 3, 2015 at 3:08 pm #

        Uploaded a picture with that post. Disqus claims it worked.