The truth about thimerosal

Vaccinations have been around for over 200 years and vaccine rejectionists have been around for nearly that long. Over the years, the basis for claims of harm from vaccines have changed, but one factor has remained constant. Vaccine rejectionists have never been right. The current fear mongering surrounding thimerosal is just the latest iteration in an ongoing effort. That fear mongering rests on two factors, ignorance of basic chemistry and ignorance of the existing research on thimerosal.

To hear vaccine rejectionists tell it, all mercury containing compounds are dangerous and therefore thimerosal is dangerous. But that’s not how chemistry works. The toxicity of a substance depends on how atoms are arranged, not simply which atoms are present. The fact that some mercury compounds are dangerous does not mean that thimerosal must be dangerous because it contains mercury.

Consider the example of sodium. Sodium is both poisonous and explosive. That does not mean that compounds that contain sodium are either poisonous or explosive. Table salt (sodium chloride) contains sodium, yet we do not worry that salting our food will result in an explosion at the dinner table.

Similarly, mercury is poisonous, but that does not mean that any compound that contains mercury is also poisonous. Some mercury containing compounds, like methyl mercury, are poisonous. Methyl mercury is the found in fish and is the reason why restrictions of fish consumption are recommended for certain groups. Thimerosal is ethyl mercury and is not poisonous.

Though methyl mercury and ethyl mercury might sound like they are very similar, one is poisonous and the other is not. How can that be? Consider the case of alcohol. Methyl alcohol (methanol), also known as wood alcohol, will lead to blindness or death if you drink it. Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is the alcohol found in wine and spirits. Chemical structure is more important than the identity of the individual atoms that make up the compound.

The safety of thimerosal is more than simply theoretical. Contrary to the claims of vaccine rejectionists, thimerosal has been studied extensively in large populations. There have been many studies that demonstrate the safety of thimerosal.

Consider the study Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a retrospective cohort study in the United Kingdom does not support a causal association (Andrews et al. Pediatrics 114. 584-591.2004). This was a retrospective cohort study was performed of 109 863 children who received thimerosal containing DPT vaccines. The study found no evidence that thimerosal caused developmental delays.

Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a prospective cohort study in the United kingdom does not support a causal association (Heron et al. Pediatrics 114. 577-583.2004) followed 14,000 children for up to 7+ years. The authors found:

Contrary to expectation, it was common for the unadjusted results to suggest a beneficial effect of thimerosal exposure. For example, exposure at 3 months was inversely associated with hyperactivity and conduct problems at 47 months; motor development at 6 months and at 30 months; difficulties with sounds at 81 months; and speech therapy, special needs, and “statementing” at 91 months… CONCLUSIONS: We could find no convincing evidence that early exposure to thimerosal had any deleterious effect on neurologic or psychological outcome.

The bottom line is that the vaccine rejectionists are wrong once again. The fact that thimerosal contains mercury does not mean it is dangerous because the chemical structure determines the danger, not the identity of the individual atoms. More importantly, thimerosal has been studied extensively in large populations over time and has been demonstrated repeatedly to be safe.

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  • Squillo

    Perhaps I can save Aiden’s Dad/Phillip Brandon Holmes/SaferThanSorry/YouShouldAllBeAshamed some time by linking to Liz Ditz’s comprehensive list of papers Ginger Taylor et al. cite as proof of a causal relationship between vaccines and autism: http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2013/08/-those-lists-of-papers-that-claim-vaccines-cause-autism-part-1.html (There are 4 parts to it, links at bottom of the first post.)

    She links to the papers so you can read ‘em yourselves.

  • SaferThanSorry

    this study was discredited:

    This prominent study, funded by the CDC, concluded that thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism. Unfortunately, however, one of the authors of the study, Dr. Poul Thorsen, was indicted this year in Atlanta for embezzlement in relation to the the $11 million CDC autism grant for that study, and reports have now come out exposing what may be be omissions and errors in the study’s conclusions.

  • Phillip Brandon Holmes

    I’m sorry but the comparisons you’ve outlined in your blunt
    little article are inaccurate when applied to the complexity and delicate
    nature of a newborn’s immune system. In other words, you’re dead wrong.

    1. three billion in YOUR tax dollars has been quietly distributed by the federally created special vaccine
    injury court. If there aren’t risks, why was this court created? Thousands
    aren’t even able to get to court because their children didn’t CONVULSE in the doctor’s offices.

    2. To address points about the MMR. Even though the MMR doesn’t contain ethyl
    mercury, the risks of introducing a triple virus into the immune system is are
    very well documented. Do your homework doc. There are clued in MDs out there that are happy to split the MMR up into three different visits spread across a comfortable time frame.

    3. We are parents that have had a child with REGRESSIVE autism have recovering our children through bio-medical intervention. We are NOT anti-vax. We are simply saying to the medical community and other parents, do your homework and take control of the schedule. 20 plus vaccines by the age of three is too much, too fast.

    4. They call it practicing medicine for a reason. You’re practicing. All experts
    agree that the medical community really doesn’t have much of a clue as to how the immune system actually works (much like the brain). Saying that a one size fits all approach to vaccination (without titers testing) is a dead giveaway of any doctor’s incompetence.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      So tell us about your formal training in immunology, virology and pharmacology, Phillip. Wait, what? You have no formal training of any kind, but you think you know more about these subjects than people who do? Doesn’t that seem just a teensy bit foolish?

      • Phillip Brandon Holmes

        My child is under the care of a board certified immunologist and neurologist as a result of the “peer reviewed crap” you’re spreading to parents that trust the opinion of uninformed doctors such as yourself.

        Oh and also, you may want to also inform your readership that the vaccines (even the MMR) are only good for a couple years. Even the CDC will admit that “doctor”.

        • Phillip Brandon Holmes

          check the numbers.. I’ve spoken to my attorney and they said due to the several week regression, I don’t have a prayer.. Luckily (said ironically) these poor parents had an immediate reaction that was beyond doubt.
          http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

          • Tim

            Personal injury attorneys: Valid, reputable sources of medical advice since christ walked golgotha.

          • Dr Kitty

            Oh yeah, like the patient who showed me a letter from their Solicitor stating that in their legal opinion refusing to prescribe Diazepam was malpractice.

            I refused to prescribe Diazepam and sent a letter saying my clinical judgement was that Diazepam not appropriate. If they were suggesting that my clinical judgement was impaired and such a decision amounted to malpractice then I would be more than happy to discuss the matter further with them, after taking advice from my own legal counsel and my Medical Indemnity Provider.

            Funnily enough, never heard back.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Yes, some few people have adverse reactions, and that’s why that program exists.

            Do you know why people like to tie autism and vaccines together? The early symptoms of autism occur at the same time vaccines are generally given, but they are not actually connected at all. Unless your child has an (extremely rare) mitochondrial condition, which can be tested for, vaccines did not cause any regression in development. That would have been immediately apparent, though, and also would have likely occurred the first time the immune system revved up to fight anything including a common cold. It wouldn’t have taken weeks to show up.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            I disagree 100%.. but whatever..

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            You don’t just get to disagree, sir. Why am I wrong?

          • Tim

            No no no, don’t you understand – a fast rising temperature resulting in encephalitis resulting in almost immediate irreversible brain damage, is the same thing as a slow gradual regression in development. You know, since there’s tons of biological explanations (none) for how the two could possibly be the same.

            The most surprising thing is, if you people keep trying to force research to rabbit hole itself by insisting something which has an easily explainable mechanism is the same as something which does not, you’re effectively trying to delay finding out what’s actually wrong with your kids. Congratulations for chasing the bogey man.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Oh yes, put the doctor part in quotes. How original.

        • Young CC Prof

          Only good a couple years? That’s funny. Because I had my last MMR 20 years ago, and I had a titer just a couple months ago. It’s still holding strong, and my baby is safe from congenital rubella syndrome. The viral vaccines tend to last pretty well.

          Pertussis (bacterial) starts to wear off after about 5 years, but that’s hardly a secret, and the vaccine schedules reflect it.

          I’m sorry your child is sick. It’s unfortunate that you don’t understand, without vaccines it would be even worse.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            I am NOT anti-vax. I am anti-CRAP in the vaccines and the schedule is excessive. I think 30 vaccines by the age of 3 is insane.

            By the way:
            http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/01/us-whooping-cough-booster-idUSBRE9700XK20130801

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            What you “think” is irrelevant. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You are so profoundly ignorant that you have no clue how ignorant you are. Perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

          • Box of Salt

            Phillip,
            By the way: do you understand why we’re stuck with a vaccine against pertussis that’s not as effective as the original one?

            As long as you make statements that are clearly false that vilify vaccines – and I quote your incorrect statement “are only good for a couple years” – the “anti vax” label does apply to you.

          • Young CC Prof

            Exactly what I was going to say. Because of people like Philip Brandon Holmes, a really effective vaccine was exchanged for one that only kinda works (although 60% effective is a lot better than nothing!), and last year 18 infants died because of it. Thousands were hospitalized and may suffer long-term health harms.

            What they don’t get is that WE are pro-safe-vax. Right now, people are working to make the vaccines we already have even better. However, the ones we have now are infinitely better than nothing.

            “I have a seatbelt bruise! Ban seatbelts!”

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Oh please. Get back to me after you’ve visited with a few thousand parents of kids that went through high fevers, convulsions, projectile vomiting and diarrhea within days if not hours after their kid’s jab. This board is an uninformed joke.

            I’m not convincing you and you’re not convincing me. I’ve lived it. Your opinion won’t change a thing.

          • Box of Salt

            Philip “Get back to me after you’ve visited with a few thousand parents”

            Have you visited those few thousands of parents personally, or just read about them on the internet? Oh please indeed.

            I do notice that you did not actually answer my question.

            You’re right: you are not going to convince me that the risks of vaccines are greater than the risks brought by the diseases against which they protect.

            But I really do wish you would stop repeating incorrect information in your attempts to make your point. (By the way: it’s 27 doses against 15 diseases including flu, so you’re wrong about the count, too: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6201a2.htm)

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            I have visited with them personally sir.
            You guys are a joke.

          • Dr Kitty

            Phillip, if 30 is too many, how many is the right number?
            Which disease do you think we shouldn’t vaccinate for?
            What is your reasoning.

            I can show you thousands of people who think their child’s epilepsy is caused by demonic possession- doesn’t make them right either.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Slow it down. Slow down the vax schedule. It’s way too many to fast. Split the MMR up into 3 different sessions. Eliminate thimerosal like the government promised in the 90s. It remains in the flu shot and tetanus for some weird reason. Why? Yeah, the took it out of a lot of them, then the started ramming flu shots down our throats and spending billions on advertising, etc. People don’t die from the flu, they die from pneumonia.. Get a pneumonia vaccine, they’re safer and there is no risk of GBS from the h1n1 strain.

            Great out there by Dr. Sears on amazon that is very informative, not anti vax and helps parents make informed decision for their children. It’s 12 bucks. Highly recommended reading for any new parent.

          • Dr Kitty

            “People don’t die from the ‘flu”
            Right there, that statement proves you’re an idiot.

            Pneumonia Vaccination protects from 23 strains of Streptococcus Pneumoniae. It doesn’t prevent viral pneumonia from influenza infection, or any of the other types of bacterial, viral or mycoplasma pneumonias.

            The most common causes of Guillain-Barré syndrome are Campylobacter and Influenza infections. The annual incidence in the UK is 1,200 people out of a population of over 60 million (and we vaccinate all over 60s, everyone with chronic illness and all pregnant women for ‘flu).

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            My board certified immunologist would say the same about you. You’re a close minded hack. Hope you have plenty of liability coverage (if you’re truly a doctor).

            Do your homework. .The flu does not kill people, they develop pneumonia as a consequence of having the flu. “Most deaths attributed to the flu are actually due to bacterial pneumonia”.

            Feed your kids a thermometer for all I care. I’ll stick to my vit. D. The lack of vit D is the entire reason people get the flu to begin with (which is why the flu is a seasonal illness to begin with).

            http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/11/06/flu-vaccine-efficacy.aspx

          • Tim

            “They develop pneumonia as a consequence of having the flu” – Yes, which means if they didn’t have the flu in the first place, they wouldn’t get pneumonia genius. Do you use the same logic to handwave AIDS away? “Well it’s not the AIDS that kills them, it’s the common cold!”

            And the obligatory Mercola link from an anti vax poster. How quaint.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            No kidding Tim? Ya think? There are options. That’s all I’m saying. Get the nasal spray or order your flu shot without mercury. Get the pneumonia vaccine and take vit D.
            But hey.. they more mercury you inject, the more IQ points you lose and the smarter I look compared to dolts like you who swallow the b.s. hook line and sinker! Go ahead and subject yourself and your kids to whatever you want. I’ll pass!

            My kid is now medically exempt from all vaccines due to his DX. So, I don’t have to worry about it anymore, anyway.

            I’m tired of trying to clue people like you in. You don’t deserve my time to begin with.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Ethyl mercury accumulates in your kidneys at toxic levels. It does explain a lot about your posts if all your intelligence is in your kidneys, I guess.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Actually, the issue is that (with children), thimerosal induces a immune system over reaction causing neural inflammation. The results of which are documented by Johns Hopkins. Where do you pull your facts from Glaxo’s executive’s cork board? Seriously.. You’ve lost this debate.

            “Current evidence suggests that neurobiological abnormalities in autism are associated with changes in cytoarchitectural and neuronal organization that may be determined by genetic, environmental, immunological and toxic factors”

            So, you see.. one size DOESN’T fit all. There is no doubt that a child with a weaker immune system plays a role. But if genetics is the gun, vaccines pull the trigger. My son, on the other hand had no MTHFR gene abnormalities nor mitochondrial DNA damage or issues.

            http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism.htm

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Do you even try to understand what you read or do you just see what you want to see? The link you provided is talking about things that happen early in embryonic development. That has nothing to do with vaccines or thimerosal.
            Also, brain immune responses happen in the brain and not from things in the peripheral blood supply. If thimerosal caused an immune response it would be in the kidneys.
            Oh and one last thing, if a child has a weaken immune system that would lead to autism then natural infections would cause it too. I have not seen anyone say that their child regressed to autism after a cold.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Whatever man. You’re too dense for me to waste time on. Thanks and have a nice life.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Well, at least with your personal attack on me you have let us all know that you know your arguments are not valid. Thank you!!

          • Captain Obvious

            MTHFR? That has to do with folate and cysteine metabolism. The C677T polymorphism has been associated with NTD. And the A1289 polymorphism has been weakly associated with cerebral vein thrombosis. Why even bring MTHFR up here?

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Try again C.O.. Google is your friend.
            I’ll assume you’re just being argumentative.. but whatever.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23653228

          • Captain Obvious

            That’s one study associating MTHFR polymorphisms with autism. That however, Phillip, has nothing to do with vaccines! This has to do with food fortifications. Like I said, the folate acid, homocysteine pathway. Taking folate, B6, and B12 can reduce its occurrence. It has nothing to do with vaccines, or thimerisal. Do you even read your links?

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes
          • Captain Obvious

            So what, like I said, MTHFR has to do with folate, THF, cysteine, homocysteine, and methionine synthesis cycle. We already know the C677T polymorphism is linked to NTD. I don’t see any of these links taking that into account when analyzing their data. That would be one important factor to select out for. I laugh that you actually got MTHFR testing done based on this study. What about vitamin D? Pitocin use while in labor? Hereditary karyotypes? People come in doctors offices with one study loosely linking something and say I want to be tested for a MTHFR polymorphism because it may have less than a percent of being the reason for autism. Blows my mind. Eat a well rounded diet and take your PNV and case closed.

          • Captain Obvious

            For someone calling me clueless, you do realize methionine is synthesized from cysteine and homocysteine don’t you? That is how the MTHFR enzyme is being linked.

          • Dr Kitty

            http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/163/2/181.full

            “The total number of deaths attributed to influenza by our surveillance model (41,400 per year from 1979 to 2001) is similar to that found in other studies”

            “In summary, a conservative, annualized analysis finds evidence that influenza virus infections are causing mortality on an annual timescale.”

            ‘Flu kills people. Fact.

            PBH- it’s all getting a bit “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, don’t you think?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            “It wasn’t the car accident that killed him, it was all the blood he lost.”

          • Dr Kitty

            “Bacterial pneumonia” is not synonymous with “pneumococcal pneumonia”. It could also be caused by a coliform infection, or Staph, or an atypical. While Pneumococcal pneumonia is the most common causative organism of bacterial pneumonia, it still causes less than 30% of Community Acquired Pneumonia.

            As I said, pneumovax only protects you from 23 strains of pneumococcal pneumonia, not from ANY OTHER bacterial, viral or mycoplasma pneumonia.

            Superimposed bacterial pneumonia (once again, to be clear NOT NECESSARILY PNEUMOCOCCAL PNEUMONIA) does indeed kill many people with Influenza, but it is perfectly possible to die from Influenza alone without any bacterial superinfection.

            I can cut and paste too.

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/preventing.htm

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flustaph.htm

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community-acquired_pneumonia

            Linking to Mercola doesn’t make me more convinced of your argument.

          • Dr Kitty

            Also, what, EXACTLY do you feel I am mistaken about?
            The incidence of GBS?
            That it is MOST COMMONLY associated with bacterial or viral infection rather than vaccination?

            People who die from bacterial pneumonia after ‘flu would usually either not have caught bacterial pneumonia without the’flu, or would not have died from the bacterial infection if they had not been weakened by the ‘flu first. Influenza may not have been the proximate cause of death, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t kill them- which is what you stated.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Also, these antivax people are always claiming that getting a natural infection makes your immune system stronger and then prove that claim to false by showing that most deaths associated with influenza infections are from pneumonia. Why might that be? Because natural infections leave you with weakened defenses that increase your risk of contracting other infections.

          • Captain Obvious

            Oh, so Phillip believes the diabetic who becomes hypoglycemic and passes out while driving and gets into a MVA and dies, was killed by the MVA only, and not the diabetic sequalae.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Linking to the CDC shows me how gullible you are.

          • Kalacirya

            LOL, someone like you doesn’t know the first thing about the CDC.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Yes, because god forbid anyone would want actual information from experts.

          • Tim

            Better to get information from Dr Mercola, the darling of Whale.To and assorted cranks and crackpots the world over.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            That’s the funny part about it. No, don’t listen to the CDC, listen to Mercola instead!

          • GuestB

            He’s quoting MERCOLA! Holy crap I can’t stop laughing. Let the games begin!!

          • Captain Obvious

            We all know Mercola is not worth the ink he writes with. Who is Phillip’s immunologist? Has Phillip mentioned his name yet? Or is that part of the government conspiracy, to not let us fools in on the news. I am sure he is notorized for his campaign against vaccines and published. Or is Mercola really his only source?

          • Kerlyssa

            Didn’t Wakefield relocate to Texas?

          • Tim

            Ahahaha – I just went and read that mercola link for S&G. Look at this quote

            “Remember most deaths attributed to the flu are actually due to bacterial pneumonia. But these days, bacterial pneumonia can be effectively treated with advanced medical care and therapies, like ICUs, respirators and parenteral antibiotics.”
            Because being in the ICU on a ventilator is no big right? We’ll fix you right up chap!

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            The pneumonia vaccine is safe and effective.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            There is only one vaccine that is associated with an increased risk of GBS and that is one of the human rabies vaccines. There is no increased risk of GBS from any influenza vaccine.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I do recall that the swine flu vaccine was pulled because of concerns about GBS. With more than 10 million vaccines given, you know how many cases of GBS were caused? About 18 – 30.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The 1976 swine flu vaccine was pulled because it showed an additional risk of 1 case of GBS per 100,000. At the time GBS was more common than it is now and with new epidemiological studies only 2 have found the same risk for the 1976 swine flu vaccine.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yes, and in doing the math, we (myself and a couple of others) figured out that it the “extra 1 in 100 000″ turned out to be something like 18 – 30 actual cases of GBS caused by the vaccine. Out of more than 10 million vaccines given.

          • Squillo

            So you mean the FDA actually pulled a vaccine because of a potential problem (1/100,000)? And I thought they were all about covering up vaccine problems.

          • Young CC Prof

            Nope. FDA has never pulled or modified a vaccine, ever. We still use whole-cell pertussis, live polio, live smallpox, and the original rotavirus vaccine. The FDA has never come down on a manufacturer due to manufacturing problems. It’s just the wild west out here, people make vaccines in the basement, and the evil government forces everyone to take them!

          • Tim

            These jackasses have made it so that no pharmaceutical company in their right mind will even think about the possibility of another lyme vaccine. Well let me tell you from first hand experience – lyme disease sucks, and taking doxycycline to get rid of it sucks. (No – I do not claim to have chronic lyme disease. But the month that I was sick for, and the summer of lethargy that went with it was grade a lousy)
            So thanks vaccine crusaders! I sure hope I can go through that experience again!

          • Young CC Prof

            Oh, man, I hate lyme. It happens all the freaking TIME around here, and it sucks. My friend had to be on cipro from it, and then he tore a ligament, possibly because of the cipro. He still has trouble with that arm.

            But no, since they pulled the lyme vaccine, no one is even trying to make a vaccine. Tick checks and abx all around, fun times.

          • Tim

            Yeah – it’s not fun. It felt like having mono again – super nasty flu symptoms, run down for a few months afterwards, etc, etc. And the doxycycline is like icing on the cake, making you want to vomit up every meal you eat, and causing other fun GI problems.
            Problem is most of the anti-vax patrol is heavily aligned with the “lyme disease lasts forever and gives you fibromyalgia unless you have IV abx for the rest of your life” crew, as I guess medical conspiracy theorists have to stick together. So when there was even a whiff of trouble with lymerix, it was dropped like a hot potato and no drug company will touch it with a ten foot pole ever again.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I really don’t like that 1/100 000 statistic. I prefer to note the absolute magnitude of the problem:

            30 people got GBS from the vaccine, so they pulled it.

            But thousands of people got GBS from the H1N1 vaccine, and it went unnoticed by everyone but Joe Mercola?

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Incorrect again.
            There are WELL documented cases of GBS with the H1N1 when combined with the flu vaccine.

            Oh.. how the blind are doomed to repeat history (60 minutes report 1976)

            AND currently:
            http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500165_162-5723397.html

            This debate is over.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Oh great youtube videos and a news story about 6 cases of GBS for 100 million vaccines. If that is the case then the flu vaccine is protective against GBS because that is less than the general population.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’m trying to remember, that one very famous case where the woman claimed to have GBS and could only walk backwards, etc, but it suddenly disappeared when she didn’t know she was on camera, was that H1N1 or gardisal?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I don’t know, I never watch those stupid youtube videos people post. What is the point they are all just ignorant personal opinions.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            You obviously didn’t watch the video. There were thousands of cases in which the government settled for about 100 million (a lot of money in 1976).

            4000 claims of GBS from that vaccine.

            Do you seriously even fact check before you post?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Who cares about what is “claimed”?

            You can look at the results and figure it out. The number of GBS cases that can be attributed to the swine flu vaccine is somewhere on the order of 18 – 30.

            That’s based on the published literature of the effect of the vaccine.

            I don’t need to watch any stupid video, I’ve done the math.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Risk ratios are great in theory, unless YOU are one of the ones that is paralyzed. Then the risk is 100%. Then that flu shot (that was most likely completely ineffective anyway against the strain that of flu that you MIGHT have happened to get) would have been a pretty dumb idea.

            So, if you’ve done the math, why would you gamble with your health? Even if the risk is 1 in 100,000, if there is a no risk alternative, wouldn’t you rather go with that instead of taking a chance on being paralyzed the rest of your life?

          • Poogles

            “Risk ratios are great in theory, unless YOU are one of the ones that is paralyzed. Then the risk is 100%. Then that flu shot (that was most likely completely ineffective anyway against the strain that of flu that you MIGHT have happened to get) would have been a pretty dumb idea.”

            It may seem like a pretty dumb idea, in retrospect, but since no one has yet invented a way to tell the future, I’ll continue to make my health decisions based on what reduces my risks the most. Which means vaccinating.

            “Even if the risk is 1 in 100,000, if there is a no risk alternative, wouldn’t you rather go with that instead of taking a chance on being paralyzed the rest of your life?”

            Well, sure. There isn’t, however, a “no risk alternative”, so that’s not even an option. Refusing the shot increases the RISK of catching the disease the shot is meant to protect against, and all the possible complications that can come along with it. Like death.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Earth to Phillip:

            YouTube is NOT a reliable source of scientific evidence.

          • Captain Obvious

            I’ve watched Kolbe jump over a car racing towards him on YouTube. Must be true.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Phillip to quack doctor with crappy little blog..
            Yeah.. 60 minutes reports on youtube. But I can see how you’ve made that lame association there. Good talking point Amy.. pffft.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Of course I didn’t watch the video. I never watch youtube videos for evidence.

          • Karen in SC

            Two reputable (not) sources and a flounce!! LOL

            I dare you to visit Science Based Medicine and share your knowledge.

          • Karen in SC

            Slow it down? You are showing some privilege there, Mr Holmes. How many extra co-pays do you want families to pay for those extra visits? Plus time off work, unpaid for many. Larger families sometimes struggle just to remember to schedule the usual well baby appointments and get the vaccines.

            I take it your son is compromised and won’t be getting any more vaccines. You should be shouting from the roof tops for every child to be fully vaccinated on time. Combine unvaxxed kids, not-yet-vaxxed kids and your son – at school, on the playgound, etc. I’d be very concerned.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Oh yeah… Your convenience and extra co-pays are surely more important than your child’s health. Wow. This is what I get for arguing with idiots.

            My child is medically exempt. But if your child is vaccinated, why should you be worried?

          • Karen in SC

            You would call a family of limited means idiots? Some do have to make those tough choices.

            You think we are idiots just because we aren’t convinced by your nonsense that has been thoroughly debunked. I guess a bunch of doctors, engineers, chemists, nurses, statisticians, economists all cheated on their exams!

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Yes I would. If you think that saving a trip or two to the doctors is worth your child’s health, you’re an idiot.

            Again, my child is under the care of some of the top MDs in Dallas. Who are you? What medical training do you have? My child’s DX is VACCINE INDUCED BRAIN DAMAGE. Get it?

          • Poogles

            “If you think that saving a trip or two to the doctors is worth your child’s health, you’re an idiot.”

            I’m glad you’ve apparently never had to choose between spending money to take your child to the doctor or spending money on food or heat or electricity or rent/mortgage etc. Some people DO have to make those types of decisions and, for those people it is just not financially feasible to add a bunch of doctor’s visits that involve taking time off of work (which they can’t afford), and transporting child to the doctor’s office (more $$$ in terms of car fuel or bus tickets, etc), not to mention the increased possibility of the child contracting a VPD due to the longer time they are being left unprotected (which can then mean more doctor’s visits, medications, more time off work, and the possibility of hospitalization – more $$$).

            And since there is NO evidence that the current schedule is “too much, too soon” or that the delayed schedule does anything except increase the time the child in vulnerable to VPD’s, there is no reason to not follow the current recommended schedule.

          • Karen in SC

            thanks for the back up, Poogles!

          • Tim

            Because some peoples kids CANT be vaccinated, and some adults CANT be vaccinated, for medical reasons, just like you’re speaking. SOME people have to do deal with immunocompromised children for whatever reason, and when there’s tens of thousands of YOU running around telling people who CAN get their kid vaxed not to, you put them all AT RISK OF DEATH.
            You also put those people with perfectly healthy kids AT RISK OF DEATH, by telling them to delay or not vaccinate at all for, wait for it, DISEASES THAT PEOPLE DIE FROM, because of the very very slim risk of side effects from vaccines.
            If you truly have a child who has brain damage from encephalitis caused by a vaccine, I feel for you – I really do. I know what it’s like to have a kid who is critically ill. But simple math tells me that the risk of that happening to someone elses kid is smaller than the risk to them from those diseases in the first place, not to mention the risk to others in the population from those diseases in the first place. So when you go around spewing and helping to convince people to avoid the good advice of the CDC, you are MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE.
            Instead of using the emotions you feel regarding your child to help better the lives of others, and help keep them safer, you are actively putting them at risk. You are lashing out, and putting other peoples lives in jeopardy because of your own emotional turmoil.
            People go out and selflessly donate bone marrow to help people with lymphoma, leukemia, etc , and you put them at risk , negating the gift of life that others have bestowed.
            People go out and selflessly donate their own or their childs organs to save anothers life. And you negate that gift.
            Dr’s and Researchers put thousands of hours into studying and finding ways to combat autoimmune disorders, to help people whose own body is killing them find some semblance of a normal life. And you negate that sacrifice, all that work.
            I’m disgusted every time I see this at work, because I’m watching a few hundred years of what can almost be considered miracle level science rolled back before my very eyes.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            Thimerosal Neurotoxicity is Associated with Glutathione Depletion: Protection with Glutathione Precursors

            Neurotoxicology, Jan 2005.

            S. Jill James, PhD [University of Arkansas].

            This recent study demonstrates that Thimerosal lowers or inhibits the body’s ability to produce Glutathione, an antioxidant and the body’s primary cellular-level defense against mercury.

            Excerpt: “Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular Glutathione in both cell lines…The potential effect of Glutathione or N-acetylcysteine against mercury toxicity warrants further research as possible adjunct therapy to individuals still receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines.”

            Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

            Environmental Health Perspectives, Aug 2005.

            Thomas Burbacher, PhD [University of Washington].

            This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in the brain, but leaves double the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in fish. This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury, and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is the “safe kind.” This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of Medicine’s recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism connection.

            Excerpt: “A recently published IOM review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation [of studying mercury and autism] as well as back away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal [of removing mercury from vaccines]. This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants.”

            Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.

            Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. Epub 2008 Sep 3.

            Branch DR, Departments of Medicine and Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

            Abstract

            A recent report shows a correlation of the historical use of thimerosal in therapeutic immunizations with the subsequent development of autism; however, this association remains controversial. Autism occurs approximately four times more frequently in males compared to females; thus, studies of thimerosal toxicity should take into consideration gender-selective effects. The present study was originally undertaken to determine the maximum tolerated dose (MTD) of thimersosal in male and female CD1 mice. However, during the limited MTD studies, it became apparent that thimerosal has a differential MTD that depends on whether the mouse is male or female. At doses of 38.4-76.8mg/kg using 10% DMSO as diluent, seven of seven male mice compared to zero of seven female mice tested succumbed to thimerosal. Although the thimerosal levels used were very high, as we were originally only trying to determine MTD, it was completely unexpected to observe a difference of the MTD between male and female mice. Thus, our studies, although not directly addressing the controversy surrounding thimerosal and autism, and still preliminary due to small numbers of mice examined, provide, nevertheless, the first report of gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal and indicate that any future studies of thimerosal toxicity should take into consideration gender-specific differences.

          • Dr Kitty

            A study of 14 mice!!!!
            ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

          • Dr Kitty

            Anyone want to work out the P values for a study of 14 mice in which the males died and the females didn’t?

            Because I’m guessing “pure chance” could explain that result pretty easily.d

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, it doesn’t. For 14 out of 14 binomial experiments to all work out the same, that’s a p-value less than .0001. Even multiplying by 4 to account for the fact that it’s a multi-sided test (all mice live, all mice die, males live and females die, females live and males die), it’s still miniscule.

            However, males die more often than females in the natural course of mammal development. If the females are celibate, they normally outlive males significantly. I’d look at the normal lifespan of male mice under those conditions.

            Also, it was only one experiment. If there are a lot of people feeding thimerosal to mice, getting something wacky like this once isn’t terribly surprising. I’d want to see the result repeated, at least once, by someone specifically searching for it. When performing an experiment, incidental findings HAVE to be independently confirmed, to avoid fishing expeditions.

            (An actual statistician.)

          • Karen in SC

            I meant YOU should be worried. My children are fully vaccinated. They’ve even had the 1st gardisil shot and scheduled for the second next month. And they are males. Tim said it better (below). Do you keep your son isolated from other kids that are unvaxxed or delaying ?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Why would anyone spread out vaccines when the people who actually know what they are talking about say the best way to protect your children is to get the vaccines in the order they are in? Surely their children’s health is more important than being a rebel or fitting in with friends.

          • Dr Kitty

            You know what?
            Kids get sick. A LOT.
            I get phone calls every day from parents of babies and toddlers with fever, D&V, rashes, coughs, febrile convulsions.

            Almost all of them HAVEN’T just had a vaccine, but instead have picked up a nasty virus from daycare, or an older sibling, or licking the lollipop they found on the pavement.

            Do better than that. Correlation is not causation, and frankly, you’re still in the realm of coincidence rather than correlation.

          • LibrarianSarah

            You’re an uninformed joke

          • LibrarianSarah

            I’m not anti-vax I’m “pro-safe vaccine.”

            I’m not a creationist I’m a “proponent of Intelligent Design”
            I’m not a Holocaust Denier I’m a “Holocaust Revisionist”

            Yeah, yeah we heard it all before but some of us prefer to call a spade a spade.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            After they gave me a biologic to try and stop my autoimmune disorder I got pertussis and had just gotten the vaccine 3 months before so they tested all my titers. I got my MMR in 1976 and still had good titers for it last year. It turns out that my weird autoimmune disorder caused the antigens to be cleared by innate immune system before an adaptive response had time to get started. Because every was fine except tetanus, because since I had pertussis my titers really high for that.

      • Guest
      • Bombshellrisa

        Or at least have taken Virology on iTunes University-if course nobody who has listened to those lectures would tell anyone to “do your homework”.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      There is no risk to many antigens in vaccines, that is made up nonsense. Infants are exposed to 10,000s of antigens every day of their lives. The schedule is set up the way it is for the best protection. Just because you don’t know much about the immune system does not mean that others don’t.

      • SaferThanSorry.

        Indeed they are exposed to many bacteria and viral agents. However, they aren’t exposed intravenously and combined with the other agents in the vaccine that create an immune system response by actually partially neutering / the immune system in order for it to react / create the antibodies. This bypasses the immune system’s natural way of fighting a virus. The cumulative effect of so many vaccines on an infant / toddler’s immune system can be devastating. The case isn’t closed as the good doctor said. The delivery method of the vaccines is created to cause an immune system response. In some cases, this can be a disaster.

        In the government’s table from the link that Phillip posted, you can see in section ((2) Encephalopathy), that these children experience an ‘overreaction of their immune system’ resulting in neural inflammation.

        Indeed ‘one size fits all’ vaccination schedules aren’t wise. Injury table below:
        http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

        It is up to each parent to adequately observe the child’s health and dictate the schedule of their child’s vaccination schedule. Too often, parents go on the advice of their physicians that aren’t very aware of the settlements that have already been quietly settled for thousands of children (that were well documented enough to actually win)

        • Tim

          Encephalitis from vaccines has an incidence of approximately 1 case per 1 million vaccines given. The risk of your child becoming grievously ill, or killing someone elses baby / an immunocompromised person, are much better if you don’t get vaccinated.

          • SaferThanSorry

            Again, nobody is anti vax. What I am personally about is the schedule and the ingredients. You can order a non thimerosal based flu shot or just take the nasal. Parents can split the MMR up into 3 doses spread a month or so apart. .
            And the numbers of the settlements are based on those that are are those that are ‘lucky’ enough to convulse in the doctors office or on the way home. There are tens of thousands that regressive over the immediate weeks that can’t prove it. In order to even get in LINE for a lawsuit, you have to have mitochondrial DNA damage (the most severe of the severe).

            Tim, you’re out of your league in this discussion with me. I’ve sat in waiting rooms full of kids with silver dollar sized measles that developed within days of the MMR, been shown video health of children prior to vaccine, only to see before me a child that has no idea I’m even in the room.
            You’re wrong and the discussing in the courts is over. The CDC has been caught with their pants down.

            If you’d walked in my shoes, for you there would be no question also.

          • Tim

            The schedule is there to keep kids safe. There are plenty of thimerosal free flu shots if you still believe in that debunked nonsense.
            And don’t forget that other people wear shoes too, that have been plenty of places before you start spouting that shit at me.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            How is anyone out of their league? Out of the misinformation league? I am confused since you haven’t posted an accurate thing yet.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, you are so mistaken about everything you said. No vaccines are intravenous. They are either subcutaneous, intramuscular, oral, or nasal spray. Although you can get viruses in your blood naturally. Vaccines do not bypass or partially neuter the immune system. Vaccines provide the antigen without the infection. That’s it. Encephalopathy is only occasionally an immune system overreaction. Encephalopathy is associated with mitochondrial disorders and certain types of autoimmune thyroiditis. If a person has one of those disorders, a natural infection is much more likely to cause encephalopathy than a vaccine.
          The vaccination schedule is not exactly one size fits all. If you have some kind of allergy or immune disorder it will be tailored to you. The schedule is the way it is because it is the safest and most effective way to prevent infectious diseases. It is not up to each parent to decide based on anecdotes and misinformation how to immunize. It is up to public health experts who actually know what they are talking about and the child’s pediatrician who knows their medical history. Your views are dangerous and not helpful to any children including your own.

          • SaferThanSorry

            Sullivan,

            I’ll give you that that the are subcutaneous, intramuscular, oral, or nasal spray. However, the rest of the nonsense you’re spewing is absolutely hogwash. Vaccines contain aluminum which is specifically added to cause impair the immune system that the antibodies are created. If you don’t believe me, here it is (and the chart of how much is included):

            http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

            Aluminum is used in vaccines as an adjuvant. An adjuvant is a vaccine component that boosts the immune response to the vaccine.

            Are these the same health ‘experts’ that have scared the American public into the H1N1 and caused thousands of cases of GBS? No thanks, I’ll do my own homework. Just because Glaxo’s quarterly results are below stock expectations is no excuse for me to cave into a vaccine with mercury in it, one I don’t need anyway or could potentially cause more harm than good.
            I had the mumps and chickenpox, etc. as did every kid I knew when I was growing up. Matter of fact, our parents took us over to the kids house that had chickenpox so we would go ahead and get it out of the way. I see no reason that there should be another vaccine for either.

            As for your last sentence, how dare you. GFY.
            I’ll say this, you certainly have the social skills of someone with asperger’s syndrome. Possibly your motive for defending vaccines? Possibly you don’t want to admit brain damage on your part? Eat it buddy.

            The truth of the matter is that until it’s YOUR kid, dolts like you will plead the ‘the greater good’ arguments and change will be slow. The fact is that people are questioning their physicians, as well they should. The state, you nor a doctors office should dictate the schedule of my child’s immunizations.

            You can feed your kid a thermometer for all I care. As for my kid, I’ll determine the timing and order my flu vaccine without thimerosal..Better yet, I’ll just avoid the pharma solution all together when it comes to the flu shot and take vit. D.

          • Young CC Prof

            Really? The aluminum gambit? I’m too tired for this.

            Suffice it to say there is less aluminum in a baby vaccine than there is in a single day’s supply of baby formula. Aluminum is everywhere, food, water, air, soil, and the human body was designed to handle it. It has zero toxic effects at the levels of exposure we’re talking about.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am not on the ASD nor are any of my three children, but thanks for attacking me so I know that you know your arguments are not valid. Anyway, there is no elemental aluminum in vaccines. There are aluminum salts in vaccines that only contain proteins because proteins are not enough to cause a robust enough immune response to create immunological memory. What the aluminum salts do is create inflammation at the injection site which shows your immune system that the protein is harmful and a robust enough immune response is started that will lead to immunological memory.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Wait a minute – I just saw something;

            caused thousands of cases of GBS?

            Thousands of cases of GBS CAUSED by the H1N1 vaccine? Shoot, there are only a few thousand cases of GBS known in US, and pretty much all of them were there long, long before the H1N1 vaccine.

            As I noted below, the swine flu vaccine was pulled when it caused someone on the order to 30 cases of GBS total.

            The idea that something could CAUSE “thousands of cases of GBS” is lunacy.

          • Tim

            Just like the vaccine court has awarded for “thousands” of cases of autism, even though they really haven’t awarded for a single solitary case of autism.

          • SaferThanSorry

            Do you fact check this rubbish prior to posting it?

            “The background rate for GBS in the U.S. is about 80 to 160 cases of GBS each week, regardless of vaccination.”

            The Institute of Medicine (IOM) conducted a thorough scientific review of this issue in 2003 and concluded that people who received the 1976 swine influenza vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. Scientists have multiple theories on why this increased risk may have occurred, but the exact reason for this association remains unknown.

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm

          • Young CC Prof

            Yes, the 1976 vaccine specifically seemed to cause several dozen cases of GBS. Ever since then, the CDC has watched for GBS after flu vaccines very carefully, but there’s been no sign of it, even in the 2009 version. It seems like it was something in that one particular shot that caused problems.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Phillip, stick to your own name and stop post as another name to make it look like someone is agreeing with your nonsense.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The background rate of GBS in the US is about 1 in 100 000. Therefore, with 300 million people, that means 3 000 cases TOTAL in the US. 100 cases PER WEEK would mean there would be 5000 NEW cases every year. It’s not possible.

            The swine flu vaccine (not H1N1, like you claimed, btw) had an increases rate of about 1 in 100 000. Given the number of vaccines that had been administered (3 million), that meant a total excess of 30 cases.

            It’s all there in the original literature.

          • Dr Kitty

            It appears YOU can link to the CDC when it suits you to…

    • Tim

      When your kid gets myocarditis that becomes dilated cardiomyopathy from hep b or mumps because you didn’t vaccinate them, come tell us again how awful vaccines are and how the schedule is just too much too fast. I’m sure you’ll feel differently about vaccines when you’re spending your days sitting in a CICU praying over your child on a berlin heart.

      PS – If autism is somethign the vaccine compensation program pays out for, how come it’s not on the chart? http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

      Looks to me like they pay out for the (exceedingly rare) but real risks only. Not fake made up ones.

      • SaferThanSorry

        Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court – Now What?
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

        The term they use on the chart is static encephalopathy (aka as vaccine induced brain damage)

        • Tim

          Congratulations on reposting articles that have been widely debunked. I’m sure you have a whole notepad doc full of them.
          PS: Brain damage from encephalitis is not the same thing as autism. I’m sure those kids parents would love it if their kid “just” had an ASD.

          • SaferThanSorry

            Tim,

            They did get settlements. The article is correct. The government settled as many thousands before them. The big difference here is that they called it autism.

            You’re actually incorrect. The DX for ASD is often static encephalopathy & PDD (pervasive development disorder) That IS the DX my son received.

            By the way, here is some research by Johns Hopkins.
            http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism.htm

            But, you can do whatever you want. I’ve made my point. You’ve made yours. Unfortunately, yours is grossly uninformed.

          • Tim

            encephalopathy means “disease of the brain” – autism certainly is that. That does not mean that every encephalopathy is autism.
            The case you’re referring to, was awarded based on the theory that the childs vaccines caused some sort of brain damage (which shared some features with ASD, which many types of brain damage can!) due to the child having a previously undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder.
            I say theory, because awards from this program are based on legal theory, not medical evidence. It’s a “simple majority of evidence” of did cause vs did not cause that is all that’s necessary to get a monetary award.
            So let’s sum up in a grossly uninformed way
            A family was awarded money based on brain damage that met the legal qualifications for being “caused” by vaccinations.
            This brain damage had some symptoms which it shared in common with autism spectrum disorders
            This person had an extremely rare mitochondrial disease which was more than likely the underlying cause for the autoimmune reaction which caused the brain damage when receiving the vaccines.
            This is a sad case of the extremely rare, but real side effects that can happen with vaccines sometimes. It’s not about autism, it’s not ‘proof’ or ‘concession’ that vaccines can cause autism, and again I say, if we were to stop vaccinating our children based on something like this, the body count would be astounding, and much much larger.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Not to mention any fever could have caused the same thing. I really do not think they should have paid out on this. Though the fever caused by the vaccine might have been the one to cause the symptoms, if she had gotten the vaccine preventable disease then she definitely would have had the symptoms and much worse.

          • SaferThansorry

            ahhh.. wrong again Tim..stop relying on wiki and trying to parse words with me. I know what the definition is. My son OWNS one.

            Encephalo means brain, opathy means damage.

            Static Encephalopathy is the DX that kids get that are PDD or PDD-NOS (pervasive development disorder not otherwise specified). You may have googled it, but I’ve lived it.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I did look it up and found that static encephalopathy diagnosis is only given to children with known brain injuries or malformations. An autism diagnosis can be given too but they are not the same thing.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, yours is greatly uninformed or misinformed. It doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Encephalopathy is not vaccine induced brain damage. It is a symptom of different types of brain diseases.

      • SaferThanSorry

        heb b is transmitted by:

        perinatal (from mother to baby at the birth)
        child-to-child transmission
        unsafe injections and transfusions
        sexual contact.

        Why on Earth would you give an infant or toddler a vaccine for that if the mother is not infected?

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          Toddlers share food and bottles and spit a lot?

          • tim

            nope, must be a govt conspiracy that made them switch hep b to babies from older kids. everything is a conspiracy

        • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

          well gee, its not like kids get raped or anything, right? jeez.
          Its pretty common, actually.
          It would be better to deal with that trauma without a life-long illness on top of it.

      • Karen in SC

        Tim, your child was on a Berlin heart? A boy here in SC was the first child allowed a compassionate use and got a transplant soon after. That was about seven years ago.

        • Tim

          No – my daughers cardiomyopathy is presumed genetic or mitochondrial in nature (jury still out, but myocarditis doesn’t cause non-compaction), not from myocarditis, and she has not required transplant at this time (drug therapy management has been sufficient for now at keeping her ejection fraction up) – but my wife and I met tons of families during our time @ BCH (they have used the Berlin and Heartware LVADs there – the Berlin is officially FDA approved now, hopefully the HeartWare will be as well, since older kids can actually go back to school and live their lives while on it) , and through our online pediatric CM parents groups. Experiences run the gamut as far as causes and outcomes, and I know several families who have had kids on LVAD’s or ECMO, some who made it, some who did not, and some who are waiting now. I worry about all their children, and I know all their stories.
          I was very pro vaccine beforehand, I’m rabidly pro vaccine now. Seeing firsthand the kind of damage these diseases can wreak upon a populus even when vaccination rates are still relatively high… I can’t even imagine going back to the world my grandparents lived in.

    • I don’t have a creative name

      Are you also posting as saferthansorry? You each told another poster they could “feed a kid a thermometer for all I care; I’ll stick to my vitamin D”, almost verbatim of each other. You should stick to one posting name, rather than trying to give the impression that more than one person is arguing the same position. It’s dishonest.

    • Poogles

      After reading all of your responses here, I am honestly embarassed for you. Embarassed because I used to believe all this crap, too, and didn’t know what I didn’t know. I can only hope that you eventually learn how to evaluate your sources to separate the credible ones from the non-credible ones (hint – Mercola is about as non-credible as you can get). I hope you eventually realize that the massive conspiracies you currently believe to exist are not only imagined, but are absolutely foolish when you try to think them through. I hope, for your child’s sake, that “eventually” comes sooner rather than later.

      • Phillip Brandon Holmes

        Poogles. There isn’t a conspiracy. Just a ‘greater good’ mentality that doesn’t account for ALL children. I have since recovered my child through bio-medical methods / immune system therapies under the care of board certified physicians under a DAN MD. Our ‘mainstream’ quack threw up his hands and told us that our son would most likely be institutionalized. Now, my son is in mainstream schools and doing great.

        As far as your embarrassment, take a good look in the mirror. You all should be ashamed of yourselves for drinking the CDC’s BS cool aid.

        • Guestll

          You should be ashamed of thinking your child needed to be recovered in the first place.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It is one of the most disgusting things all this recovering lost children nonsense.

          • Phillip Brandon Holmes

            You people are COMPLETE morons.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Can you so “projection”?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Please, keep telling us just who you are and how much you really believe the nonsense you are spreading. I really appreciate it.

        • Poogles

          “I have since recovered my child through bio-medical methods / immune system therapies under the care of board certified physicians under a DAN MD. ”

          And that is precisely why I am hoping you learn better as soon as possible. The bio-medical “therapies” pushed by DAN quacks are, at best, useless, and at worst, dangerous. Children have died from some of these treatments. I hope your child doesn’t suffer too much from your mistaken beliefs.

          http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-autism-biomed-movement-uncontrolled-and-unethical-experimentation-on-autistic-children/

          • Tim

            I was not even aware of what he was talking about with this DAN biomedical treatment stuff, so thank you for the link Poogles. Or should I not thank you, because it just made me even more angry , and far sadder.

    • YouAllShouldBeAshamed
  • Guest

    I’m sorry but the comparisons you’ve outlined in your blunt
    little article are inaccurate when applied to the complexity and delicate
    nature of a newborn’s immune system. In other words, you’re dead wrong.

    1.
    3 billion has been quietly distributed by the federally created special vaccine
    injury court. If there aren’t risks, why was this court created. Thousands
    aren’t even able to get to court because their children didn’t CONVULSE in the
    doctor’s offices.

    2.
    To address points about the MMR. Even though the MMR doesn’t contain ethyl
    mercury, the risks of introducing a triple virus into the immune system is are
    very well documented. Do your homework doc. There are clued in MDs out there
    that are happy to split the MMR up into three different visits spread across a
    comfortable time frame.

    3.
    Most parents that have had a child with REGRESSIVE autism AND have recovered
    their children through bio-medical intervention, are NOT anti-vax. We are
    simply saying to the medical community and other parents, do your homework and
    take control of the schedule. 20 plus vaccines by the age of 3 is too much, too
    fast.

    4.
    They call it practicing medicine for a reason. You’re practicing. All experts
    agree that the medical community really doesn’t have much of a clue as to how
    the immune system actually works (much like the brain). Saying that a one size
    fits all approach to vaccination (without titers testing) is a dead giveaway of
    any doctors incompetence.

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