Lie to your patient and other homebirth midwifery wisdom

Want to know what homebirth midwives really think?

Read From Calling to Courtroom, A Survival Guide for Midwives. I should warn you in advance, though, that it may turn your stomach.

It may surprise you to find that midwives are every bit as concerned about legal action as the obstetricians they deride. They’re not worried about malpractice since by refusing to carry insurance they have rendered themselves judgment proof. No, homebirth midwives are worried about legal prosecution for practicing in violation of state laws. The book is a compendendium of strategies designed to prevent prosecution, or deal with it once it has occurred. It can be summed up very briefly: to protect yourself, a homebirth midwife should do anything, say anything (true or not), betray anyone and (most important) hire a licensed lawyer.

1. In order to prevent prosecution, homebirth midwives should lie to their patients.

Apparently informed consent, which homebirth midwives harp on endlessly in their criticism of obstetricians, is only for doctors, not for midwives. According to midwife Elizabeth Camp:

In the future my motto is, “No witnesses”. If I ever have to cut an episiotomy to save a baby’s life, I would ask everyone to turn their backs and turn off all video cameras. I would say to the mother, “I’m sorry, I had to TEAR you to deliver your baby quickly” (ok, so you tore her with scissors). I do not carry Pitocin anymore. For those midwives who do carry Pitocin, I would advise them to never admit it to anyone who has the ability to testify (that is, anyone except your husband). If a midwife ever feels the need to inject Pitocin or administer any kind of drug, such as Methergine, she should refer to such substances as “minerals.”

Be careful how you talk to your apprentices. You may think, “Not her, she would never betray me.” In my experience, there were only a few out of hundreds of midwives in my state who stood by me and defended me.

Be careful how you talk to your clients. Always use terms such as “If I were you, I would…” instead of diagnosing and recommending. Always have them initial on their charts when they refuse to get lab work or choose not to see a doctor.

Be careful where you keep your medical supplies. A search warrant can be issued without warning to you at any time. Do not chart emergency medical procedures. Use a “made up” code that only YOU understand. Don’t ever think it can’t happen to you. I believe I was careful BEFORE I was prosecuted. I am even more careful now.

In other words, lie to your patients, lie to your assistants, lie in your charting. Be sure to set things up so that if anything goes wrong the patient will be blamed.

2. Hire a licensed lawyer.

No self-proclaimed lay lawyers for these women. Evidently no concept of irony, either.

Want another reason that a midwife needs a lawyer? Look at the previous section of this book, describing the legal system. Lawyers go to school for at least seven years, take a grueling bar exam (which not everybody passes), then go out into the “real world” to learn how to research, argue without ticking off a judge, and apply classroom knowledge to courtroom situations. This book helps the midwife understand the system and not be shocked the first time she gets a search warrant or cease and desist order. It will not leave the midwife knowledgeable enough to represent herself. A midwife should feel no more comfortable representing herself than a lawyer would feel doing a midwife’s job (besides, most of them hate the sight of blood). The rule of thumb is this: if they have a lawyer, so should you. After all, it’s your freedom and your professional life that is at stake.

3. Don’t worry about dead babies; some babies just die.

This horrific passage comes from Geradine Simkins, former President of the Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA):

In the mid-1990’s, a well-known midwife was involved with a couple of baby deaths in out-of-hospital settings in Michigan. During one of the investigations the story became a media circus—as many of the midwife and homebirth stories do. The American public loves drama, and live-versions of drama are relished even more than fiction… This is the kind of situation that should not be made into a mini-drama. You know, babies die; it’s part of life. And only those entrenched in the bio-technical model think that that it doesn’t, or shouldn’t happen. I have traveled extensively in other countries, mostly developing nations, and people understand this reality elsewhere. I once arrived at the house of a midwife in another country the morning a baby had died in a homebirth. I found that the family had embraced the midwife and was so grateful to her—because the mother did not die. They were understandably sad about the baby, but families expect that a baby might die. A mother dying is considered beyond tragic. It’s a matter of perspective.

I’ve never seen a clearer expression of homebirth midwives’ the bone chilling lack of concern for dead babies.

When you tell women that they should accept their babies deaths and just be grateful that they didn’t die, too, you’ve forfeited any claim to being considered a professional of any kind.

When you insist that women should just get over the death of their baby because African women have it worse, you have demonstrated utter contempt both for women (generally women of color) around the world who suffer repeated heartbreak, and contempt for the emotional pain of your own patients.

There’s more, much more, along these lines in From Calling to Courtroom. I suggest this document be invoked at any legislative hearing on licensing homebirth midwives or expanding their scope of practice. Nothing can more clearly illustrate the fact that homebirth midwives are not professionals, and are unworthy of licensing, than their own words.

63 Responses to “Lie to your patient and other homebirth midwifery wisdom”

  1. Elizabeth
    July 24, 2014 at 7:30 pm #

    I am Elizabeth Camp; The part that was left out of your post, quoting me, is the story behind it. In 2000, I was charged with 4 felony counts of the illegal practice of medicine, simply for being a midwife and keeping my clients safe. These charges were not brought on by clients, nor by doctors, but by a State who’s midwife laws were unclear, or should I say, “Non-existent.” My midwife friends were threatened into testifying against me, also were the clients who’s lives or babies I had preserved. In this interview, I am speaking of basic CYA, (cover your butt) tactics, the same that are used in EVERY single hospital and doctor’s office in the country. Yours too, Dr Amy, I’m sure. I went to nursing school, I worked in a hospital, so did my RN husband. I know the system very well. You gasp that I would ask people to turn their backs or turn off their video cameras, yet hospitals all over the country have banned video cameras from their delivery and operating rooms. Is it not common practice for family members to be asked to leave when a crisis arises? Is not ONE of the reasons, to prevent witnesses and thus, lawsuit? Throughout any kind of medical professional schooling, CYA is pounded into our heads on a daily basis. Defensive medicine is not only the norm, but it is NECESSARY for legal survival. I believe this book was written for those, like my former self, who were too trusting, thinking that as long as we didn’t hurt anybody, we would be left alone. We face a very different threat than you do. We do not have a staff that is well versed in covering our butts FOR US. We are all we have sometimes. We have enemies lurking around every corner, (not our clients) AND THAT IS precisely why we have to be especially careful to NEVER make mistakes and to CYA. I have never lied to a client. I don’t tell them that something is “Best for them,” when in reality, it is best for me. I have heard doctors do this many times – MANY times. I flat out tell my clients when I am covering my butt. I tell them why I have to phrase things a certain way for legal reasons. Do Doctors do this? Is there true informed consent in the medical profession? – not often. Is there lying in the medical profession? I have heard many blatant lies come out of Doctor’s and nurses mouths. Don’t deny it, or I will count that as another. Thanks be to God that my prosecution sparred the defining of the midwife laws in my State so that we don’t have to fear prosecution the way we used to! Those of us, who have chosen to license and follow regulation, are not the problem, neither are many of the unlicensed as licenses don’t make you good. When it comes to fighting the unnecessary loss of life and brain cells, due to reckless, uneducated, inexperienced women, who call themselves midwives…I am TOTALLY with you!

    • Karen in SC
      July 24, 2014 at 8:28 pm #

      Didn’t hurt anybody? Watch the video Not Buried Twice (on Youtube).

    • anion
      July 24, 2014 at 8:38 pm #

      So what about the bit where you carry and administer Pitocin and lie to the mother about what you’re giving her? Is that something all medical professionals do? Are you actually legally permitted to carry and administer Pitocin or any IV meds? (I know you say you don’t do it anymore, but that you once did.) How about when you tell a woman you “had to tear” her when in fact you cut an episiotomy? Is that something all licensed medical professionals do–outright lie about what procedures they performed?

      My mother is an RN, too. I grew up around doctors and nurses in the ER. Not ONE of them ever expressed the absolutely vile opinion that it’s cool to lie to patients and lie on their charts because “CYA.” In fact, every single one of them would be horrified and disgusted at the idea. They’re not like you, see; they don’t run around talking about “empowering” women while treating women like cows who don’t deserve the truth about what’s being done to them. They don’t talk about “empowering” women while engaging in dangerous behaviors which harm them and then lying about it and, through those lies, actively both preventing those women from receiving appropriate follow-up care–how can that happen when the actual DOCTORS trying to help them don’t know the facts because you had to cover up your lies and incompetence?–and encouraging them to believe dangerous myths and pass those myths on so other women can be harmed by them (“I didn’t need pitocin! I just got an injection of minerals, you should get one too! I had a natural tear which is right and normal so don’t let your doctor cut an episiotomy!”) They don’t see the lives of women and babies as their personal stages on which to play-act some self-aggrandizing “Midwife: Giver of Life” fantasy, mere accessories to make them feel special and important and who cares what happens to those women and babies as long as the lying “birth junkies” get their narcissistic “high.”

      Yes, family members are asked to leave while certain procedures take place. That’s because they may be upset or get in the way. Some procedures are unpleasant to experience and even more unpleasant to watch. Some have sanitary requirements that do not permit the presence of others. Sure, sometimes it’s for legal reasons, too, but not as often as you, with your brain-dead mistrust of anyone with more knowledge and responsibility than yourself, state.

      You’re damn right you shouldn’t be diagnosing anything, because you are not qualified to do so. Doctors don’t generally have to tell their patients (not clients, patients) that they’re phrasing things certain ways for legal reasons, because doctors carry actual responsibility and licenses and can’t just trot off to damage other people without consequences if things go wrong, which means they generally advise and inform their patients based on real science and evidence and not “Well, this other uneducated layperson I know who has a blog says this,” or “The dangerous lunatic who trained me recommended I rummage around inside women’s vaginas and uteruses like they’re Chinese toy boxes, so that’s totally what I’m gonna do.”

      Please explain what those other midwives were “threatened” with; was it the idea of being arrested for their own crimes? How about your clients? You saved their lives yet they were “threatened” into testifying against you? Isn’t it possible that you are actually just a shitty, shitty midwife and people were happy to turn you in or tell the authorities how you harmed them, just as they would be happy to excise a cancerous growth on their bodies? <Thirty seconds on Google turned up at least one woman whose birth you personally turned into a horrorshow by manually dilating her and ignoring her loss of blood so severe she passed out and later required four units of blood at the hospital. She almost DIED and you come here to act like you did nothing wrong and you're just saying and doing what every real, responsible, educated medical professional says and does? WTF is the matter with you?

      You're a CPM. Your "license" is bullshit not worth the paper it's printed on. I cannot believe you have the nerve to come here and defend the idea of lying and falsifying records to protect yourself at the expense of women and babies. You are an irresponsible, morally repugnant ignoramus, and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

      • anion
        July 24, 2014 at 8:40 pm #

        Fixing formatting issue:

        Less than thirty seconds on Google turned up at least one woman whose birth you personally turned into a horrorshow by manually dilating her and ignoring her loss of blood so severe she passed out and later required four units of blood at the hospital. She almost DIED and you come here to act like you did nothing wrong and you’re just saying and doing what every real, responsible, educated medical professional says and does? WTF is the matter with you?

        You’re a CPM. Your “license” is bullshit not worth the paper it’s printed on. I cannot believe you have the nerve to come here and defend the idea of lying and falsifying records to protect yourself at the expense of women and babies. You are an irresponsible, morally repugnant ignoramus, and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

        • yugaya
          July 27, 2014 at 7:17 pm #

          “You’re a CPM. Your “license” is bullshit not worth the paper it’s
          printed on. I cannot believe you have the nerve to come here and defend
          the idea of lying and falsifying records to protect yourself at the
          expense of women and babies. You are an irresponsible, morally repugnant
          ignoramus, and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.”

          I think she truly forgot to even consider the audience here and how much it will differ from more naive people or emotionally vulnerable people that she probably easily manipulates on daily basis. Narcissism does that to a person.

    • Stacy48918
      July 24, 2014 at 8:49 pm #

      “When it comes to fighting the unnecessary loss of life and brain cells, due to reckless, uneducated, inexperienced women, who call themselves midwives…I am TOTALLY with you!”
      So you’re no longer practicing, right? Because you just described yourself.

      • yugaya
        July 27, 2014 at 7:14 pm #

        Christy Collins CPM referred to herself as qualified as opposed to some unqualified midwives out there. Jan VBAC “Facts” was dismissive of “lay people” and their birth knowledges.

        Lo and behold, and here we have a CPM who wandered into a few nursing classes and believes that somehow makes her more qualified that the lot of ’em who didn’t.

        • Bombshellrisa
          July 27, 2014 at 8:40 pm #

          But but but…she worked in a hospital! So she must be totally more qualified than those other CPMs!
          Ms Camp’s reasoning explains why the CPM who graduated “premed” is considered so qualified, even if she never took any actual medical classes

          • yugaya
            July 28, 2014 at 11:23 am #

            Wasn’t there a story mentioned about a person with some insider knowledge of hospital birth practices who also “worked in a hospital” and turned out to be a cleaner?

          • Bombshellrisa
            July 28, 2014 at 2:23 pm #

            I am sure there is more than one (we get lots of trolls who parachute in and claim to work “in healthcare” or “in a hospital” but refuse to say in what capacity) but the person who comes to mind is killer midwife Patricia Couch. She reassures mothers that she worked in the L&D unit for years and she did, she just doesn’t mention that she was part of the cleaning staff. This woman is an Oregon midwife and practices out of a free standing birth centers and also does homebirths

    • Stacy48918
      July 24, 2014 at 9:04 pm #

      Oh yea and another term for “defensive medicine” is GOOD medicine. I don’t worry about needing to CYA because I recommend and practice good medicine. I’ve got a client right now with buyer’s remorse. While he may leave bad Yelp reviews, if he decides to go to the board I will not loose a moment’s sleep over the care I recommended and provided. I was thorough and complete – not because I needed to be to cover my butt but because it was the best diagnostic and treatment plan for the patient’s condition. If you find yourself in positions needing to CYA, why have you left your *A* so exposed in the first place?

    • Bombshellrisa
      July 24, 2014 at 9:19 pm #

      Another facet of defensive medicine: knowing and understanding the laws and statues that apply to your area of practice. The laws about midwifery being considered an area of medicine were around since 1993 in Utah. Not knowing what laws apply to you or refusing to learn is what the problem was, not pointing fingers at doctors and saying “but YOU tell people to turn off video cameras!” And “I have heard doctors lie before!”. Childish rant.

    • Medwife
      July 24, 2014 at 9:22 pm #

      Do you still practice Powerbirthing? Do you still deliver breeches and multiple gestations at home?

    • yugaya
      July 27, 2014 at 7:07 pm #

      Have you ever falsified medical records like you suggested other midwives do? Is there any professional organisation that will strip you of your license to practice because you publicly suggested such breech of ethics? What would happen to a doctor who dared suggest that to other doctors in your country? That is not just merely reckless – I thought that sort of thing is supposed to be illegal everywhere on the planet.

      “… reckless, uneducated, inexperienced women, who call themselves midwives”

      That is you. You are a lay midwife if you are a CPM regardless of your boastful mentioning of working in a hospital, attending a few nursing classes or your husband being a RN – none of that adds up to make up for a proper degree in midwifery that would be valid elsewhere in developed world countries.

      In any other industrial country you would not be able to practice as a midwife for lack of qualification, education and training, not to mention strict legal regulations on scope of practice. I think that even in these godforsaken parts where I live doctors would be struck off if they dared make public statements that you made.

      • KarenJJ
        July 28, 2014 at 3:45 am #

        My mum was a RN before retirement and she trained as a midwife. She reported her obgyn to the state medical board for lying on her medical chart.

        If only obgyn’s could do the same to homebirth midwives.

    • Trixie
      July 28, 2014 at 8:11 am #

      I’m just now processing this…so the reason that you threw a hissy fit on Jan Tritten’s wall, which Dr. A wrote about yesterday, was because you finally got around to reading this two year old article about what a dangerous idiot you are?
      Oh, this makes it even richer.

      • yugaya
        July 28, 2014 at 10:10 am #

        In a world where handheld doppler is believed to be an adequate substitute for CEFM, middle school chess club tactics are the best that she could come up with in terms of damage control. Initially I just laughed at the whole thing, but now that I’ve read who she is I just feel sick that she is still in the homebirth business. At least Jan Tritten does not deliver babies, and the Skeptic OB posts have stopped her from crowdsourcing for other lay midwife-murderers after she and Christy Collins killed Gavin Michael.

        Elisabeth Camp CPM has the same level of ignorant arrogance that Christy Collins CPM displayed, and I fear that we will be hearing more about her in the future. 🙁

    • yugaya
      July 28, 2014 at 2:43 pm #

      ” I believe that childbirth was created by God to be a perfect process, in and of itself.” – Elisabeth Cram, CPM

      The “natural” rate of maternal mortality without any interventions is estimated by WHO to be 1000 -1500 dead mothers per 100,000 births. Currently, thanks to all that godawful meddling of modern medicine, maternal mortality rate in USA is 28 dead mothers per 100,000 births.

      I know, I know, trust birth, try stevia, hire a quack and gamble a little for the sake of the experience…

    April 14, 2014 at 6:38 pm #

    I think some of you are also missing this simple fact; not that i agree with the things that this midwife said or agree with using any kind of midwife. There are two kinds of midwives, the first is the licensed and legal kind that can work in a home, in a hospital or really anywhere because they basically have the qualifications of a RN, and the second is the completely unlicensed and natural. Regardless of what kind this woman was, this is one of the most disgusting articles I’ve ever read and its a shame.

  3. RivkahChaya
    December 23, 2013 at 8:21 pm #

    Oh surely there’s something about diluting a regular homosexual 100,000 times….

  4. LawGeekNYC
    December 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm #

    Only if the mother is a minor. Otherwise, I don’t know any law that prevents folks from making home-made porn if they feel like it.

  5. LawGeekNYC
    December 23, 2013 at 8:02 pm #

    Well, to be fair, I don’t think I would have passed the evidence portion of the NY bar without my Law & Order addiction . . . So you’re probably already closer to being a lawyer than they will ever be to being a doctor.

  6. LawGeekNYC
    December 23, 2013 at 7:58 pm #

    Well, lawyers have to take CLE credits to stay licensed, too. But, yeah, law school is so much easier than med school, and we’re called (and paid as) lawyers during the firm training that substitutes for residency.

  7. Kate B
    November 24, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    Just out of interested, during my third birth – which was failing to progress following induction for PROM (premature spontaneous rupture of membranes).
    My registrar (a registrar is a doctor of lower rank than a consultant ob-gyn) attempted to speed things up by manually dilating my cervix. It hurt like a bitch and didn’t do anything – I ended up with a section.
    Is manual dilation of the cervix ever an evidence-based intervention? Is it common medical practice?
    I’d never heard of it before my registrar attempted doing it to me, and I’ve never heard of anyone having it done since!

    • toni
      November 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm #

      I’ve heard of doctors doing that but only in Britain (and I assume that’s where this happened since you used the word registrar). They did it to my mother about 20 years ago when she had my sister. She said it was torture and worst part of the whole birth but it did work on her and she delivered vaginally a little while afterwards. Oh and the doc didn’t even warn her he was going to do it. Horrible. Sorry that was done to you and didnt even work! When I had my baby in June (in Florida) I freaked out when the ob went to break my waters i said please don’t pull my cervix open and he looked a bit surprised and said we don’t do that here. Not sure if he meant that hospital or all of USA. I reckon some nhs staff are just reluctant to do caesereans and they’ll try almost anything to avoid them.

      • Dr Kitty
        November 25, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

        Well it’s definitely not taught as a good thing, or, frankly even as an idea to be entertained, in the part of the UK I work in.

        • toni
          November 25, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

          Well this is the first I’ve heard of it since my mother told me about her experience but I just looked it up and there are accounts of it on mumsnet so I guess rare but not unheard of? I did say Britian not UK though 😛 NI is different in a lot of ways.. you still have a selective school system I think (?) my dad’s cousin lives in Newry and recently had her fourth baby and got an epidural without anyone trying to dissuade her at all. She couldn’t believe it. Her other babies were born in north wales and she’d never been allowed one. It was always too early and then suddenly too late.

      • Kate B
        November 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

        I think you are right – in a socialized healthcare setting, there’s always going to be a focus on reducing expense and c-sections are definitely expensive. (Which is also why I find the claims of NCB advocates in the UK that Ob-Gyns have no interest in ‘natural’ birth to be bizzare – Natural birth is cheaper if nothing else, so of course they do!)
        During my first birth, the Registrar (a different one) went to great lengths to avoid a c-section. He attempted ventouse at least 7 times and forceps three times. It worked, I avoided a section – but my son came out with no skin on the top of his head and was on painkillers for a week after the birth. I’ve also had pelvic floor issues including a prolapse.
        Thanks for your comment x

        • toni
          November 25, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

          That’s shocking, you poor thing :[ I thought they were only supposed to make three attempts with ventouse OR forceps and never use both on the same baby. Hard to believe they really think what you’ve described (injured mother and child) is a better outcome than a c section but they probably do! I had a friend who left sixth form to have a baby and ended up with forceps delivery (no pain relief!) She tore into her bottom and her daughter had a bloodshot eye and looked a real mess. The midwives told her it was still better than a section because with those you can’t lift the baby etc

  8. Ducky
    November 24, 2013 at 12:25 pm #

    i’ve been reading your blog for a year now and this material is shocking, to say the least.

  9. Anonymous
    September 9, 2013 at 1:54 pm #

    Because administering drugs, any drugs, in the wrong quantity can be lethal.

  10. Anonymous
    September 9, 2013 at 1:02 pm #

    Maybe if the case starts to go south they can call a lawyer who’s only a few minutes away. After all, guilty is just a variation of not guilty.

  11. Anonymous
    September 9, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    Saddest quote from that literary blat:

    “When one midwife gets arrested often other midwives in the same state want to believe it was her fault. Not the fault of the state legal system or the medical establishments but that she, the midwife, must have done something to deserve this.”

    You mean that the legal system doing it’s job? It’s kind of rare that someone gets arrested for doing nothing at all.

  12. amazonmom
    August 29, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

    AH yes. Those two. They got caught eh?

    • Bombshellrisa
      August 29, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

      Yes, along with Amanda Feldman. Since its a matter of public record now because its on the WA health website, I can say that all three never accompanied their patients during transfers and there were deaths that resulted from their poor care. I had the unfortunate chance of meeting one of them, they are very into rescuing and helping animals and frequent the same off leash dog parks we do. When someone is trumpeting about being “so glad their job doesn’t involve life and death decisions anymore” I tend to listen in, and that is how I came to realize I was talking to a killer “midwife”.

  13. SadNation
    August 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm #

    How did we ever make it thousands of years….and to call ourselves a mammal…why the monkeys and raccoon should start hiring Drs to pee, I mean birth. How pathetic that people think they need a Dr when they aren’t sick!

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      August 28, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

      How? The same way we made it here with a 20% miscarriage rate.

      You scare me. Someone as ignorant as you are should not be caring for women and babies.

    • lilin
      November 18, 2014 at 4:13 am #

      Every post you make convinces more people that midwives are dangerous. If we could get your responses to show up when people search google for midwives, the midwifery profession would collapse overnight.

  14. SadNation
    August 28, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    Interesting how you turn these quotes around to discredit. Wonder if you also posted anywhere that there is a 20% death rate due to hospital neglect, sickness, and other trama to mother and baby either during or right after birth. There is less than a 1.7 death rate per capita at home births. Also did you mention that the care of the OBGYN is to lie to mothers continually to get them to have major surgery instead of a natural birth…You can’t tell me there is a problem with 60% of births in some US hospitals warranting a c-section and 40% US wide!!! Emergencey? I think not,
    …I am both a doula and a midwife. I have seen OB’s “up the pit to see how low the heart rate will drop so we can just do a C-sect” or for a first baby “your too small to deliver so we will have to schedule a CS” or “I am going on vacation so it is better to get this done now” Or the newest fad…”You have a bad uterus or not enough fluid.” We do care about death…we also know that some babies that are born in a hospital or at home are going to die…so do moms. It is tragic. And I never lie to my moms, dads, or whomever….most of us don’t.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      August 28, 2013 at 8:13 pm #

      A 20% death rate? One in every 5 babies born in the hospital dies?

      Do you even think before you write? Do you have any idea how foolish that makes you look?

      Thank you for dropping in and demonstrating, yet again, that homebirth midwives are uneducated, incompetent fools.

    • An Actual Attorney
      August 28, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

      Wait, 20% death rate??? 1 out of 5 hospital-born babies die?

      1.7 death rate PER CAPITA?? Shit, no way I’d sign up for that. But impressive? Do you shoot 7 out of 10 dads at the births?

      The only thing I can do in the face of this stupidity is to laugh.

      • auntbea
        August 28, 2013 at 9:26 pm #

        OMG! I peed!

        • Bombshellrisa
          August 28, 2013 at 11:08 pm #

          Me too, especially about the “I never lie” part.

          • Young CC Prof
            August 28, 2013 at 11:18 pm #

            Scary part is, maybe SadNation actually believes what he or she is saying. Despite the fact that 20% is easily shown to be laughable with a brief nonscientific neighborhood count.

          • auntbea
            August 29, 2013 at 8:53 am #

            It is mathematically impossible to believe in a death rate larger than one death per capita.

          • Young CC Prof
            August 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm #

            Mathematically impossible to happen. In 13 years of teaching, I’ve learned nothing is impossible to believe in.

    • Bombshellrisa
      August 28, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

      Wow, thank you for reminding me how dumb I used to sound. And especially how uninformed I was after doula training and formal education and apprenticing as a midwife.

      • Squillo
        August 29, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

        I have a hard time believing you ever sounded that dumb, even if you held similar beliefs.

        • Bombshellrisa
          August 29, 2013 at 7:30 pm #

          Dr Amy’s latest post sort of sums up why I sounded like that, however I was a rather vocal (and ignorant) buddy.

    • Dr Kitty
      August 29, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

      When you come back, bring grammar, Maths, statistics, common sense, logic and some sort of coherent argument….oh yes, and some knowledge of obstetrics would be nice.

      In case you haven’t worked out why we’re laughing at you:
      20% death rate implies 1/5 of babies dies.
      1.7 death rate per capita implies that for every home birth 1.7 people die.
      You also appear to believe that CPD, uterine atony and oligohydramnios don’t exist ( they do, and they aren’t to be messed with).

      You may not be knowingly lying to your clients, but if that is what you’re telling them, it isn’t the truth either.

  15. Ithinkyoumissedthepointhere
    June 6, 2013 at 6:49 am #

    Did you miss the part where the MANA website specifically states, “Currently, MANA has two part-time staff members: executive director and conference coordinator” above Geraldine’s profile? It’s a pretty safe bet that she has less of a leadership role helping part-time now, while Jill Breen is the full-time President. The point, though, wasn’t to devalue her role, as you are implying is being done here, but it seems to me that Dr. Tuteur is acknowledging Ms. Simkins’ prior full leadership in that organization, which would not have otherwise been obvious.

  16. Ithinkyoumissedthepointhere
    June 6, 2013 at 6:30 am #

    I think you meant to write appalling, which is exactly my reaction to “From Calling to Courtroom” teaching midwives to have an utter lack of compassion and respect for life. A mother whose baby just died, because you failed to deliver that child alive to her, really wants to hear your loving reassurance to “quit being a mini-drama queen because some babies die.” As for “justifying strongly-held beliefs,” you haven’t provided any facts in rebuttal to the hard facts that Dr. Tuteur has cited and sourced. This midwife “legal” guide is blatently promoting, among other things, 1) lying to the mother about procedures (or telling her “babies die” when hers does), 2) practicing medicine illegally, and 3) advocating hiding evidence of illegal activity. Perhaps that advice is why unlicensed midwife Tina Bailey is facing life imprisonment for 1) accidentally killing a child (and practicing illegally), 2) obtaining property by false pretense, and 3) obstructing justice.
    (“Unlicensed Midwife Charged in Baby Death”

  17. Anna
    February 28, 2013 at 6:45 pm #


    Even among moderate-risk patients, the midwifery model of care with its limited use of interventions can produce outcomes equivalent to or better than those of the biomedical model. (Just one example, of many).

    • Susan
      February 28, 2013 at 7:32 pm #

      That’s just an abstract about CNM being good care for the right women. Have you read the study? It doesn’t appear to be about home birth or DEMs. What is your point?

  18. Anna
    February 28, 2013 at 6:11 pm #

    Not every baby lives. That is the truth, no matter whether you are following the medical model or the midwifery model of care. However, the midwifery model of care has better outcomes at a national and international level, because it is person-centered, woman-driven, more cost-effective, and provides more personal attention to pregnant and delivering women.

    • Susan
      February 28, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

      Not every baby lives. That is the truth, no matter whether you are following the car seat model of driving or the mom’s lap model. However, the mom’s lap has better outcomes at a national and international level, because it is baby warmth centered, more cost-effective, and provides a more personal car ride for both mom and baby.

      • yugaya
        July 28, 2014 at 2:22 am #

        Right until mother and baby are involved in a car crash, which is when car seats and seat belts save lives, and lap warmth kills.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      February 28, 2013 at 6:37 pm #

      No, it doesn’t have better outcomes. For example, in The Netherlands the perinatal death rate for low risk midwife patients is HIGHER than for high risk obstetrician patients.

    • February 28, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

      However, the midwifery model of care has better outcomes

      So long as you dismiss the babies who don’t live….


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