Because there’s nothing that says “self-confidence” quite like banning another blog

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Remember Tracey Cassels, another sactimommy suffering from sadness?

Apparently she’s suffering from self-doubt. Why else would she (and her followers) fear what I write unless they:

  • knows it’s true?
  • can’t offer any substantive criticism?
  • feel their desperate desire to imagine themselves as superior to other mothers is threatened?
  • Sarah

    I am really not sure why Dr or Dr Amy is in quotations. You’re either an M.D., or you’re not. What a shame that unskilled people find it amusing to mock people who devote their lives to ensuring the safe delivery of babies.

  • anon

    So, naturally, I want to check out every blog they hate, which takes this slightly OT….Tizzie Hall- can anyone describe in a nutshell why they hate her? She claims to have the solution to babies who wake at the crack of dawn. Having gone through two kids who spent a year waking at 4am, and a third who seems to be well on his way to the same, I will try ANYTHING to avoid that nonsense again. But, um, only if it has a chance of working.

    • Eddie

      I was one of those kids. We lived in northernmost Maine at the time and my younger brother and I woke up with the sun. My mother ended up putting aluminum foil over the windows so we’d sleep longer. A desperate solution, but my mom reports it worked.

      • KarenJJ

        I bought expensive blockout curtains for my kids (although you can get lovely cheaper ones, but I got sucked into some gorgeous children’s room fabrics from the UK).

        • anon

          sigh. yeah. have those. never worked. thanks anyway, though!

  • Elle

    It’s funny, wasn’t it Jennifer Margulis (or one of her supporters) who implied that the reason her book got so much backlash/criticism was because she “struck a nerve” and therefore what she wrote “must be true”? And yet you’ve presented plenty of facts here to debunk her anecdotes, while she resorts to manipulating Amazon reviews, and this page resorts to “wishing they could ban” your blog. I guess their “backlash” rule only works one way!

  • Lisa Miller

    Just what I want. “The World According to Earth Mamas” Gak.

  • GiddyUpGo123

    I was just reading that older post about her website and it’s “mission” to “help parents be better parents for their babies by
    focusing on parenting as it has evolved for millions of years (not the
    drastic changes we have made to parenting in the last couple hundred
    years), for which human infants are adapted.” And I just want to know, which culture is it exactly that she’s using as a benchmark for this perfect form of “evolutionary parenting?” Because different cultures had vastly different ways of raising children that persisted for many generations. Comanche mothers, for example, would strap their babies to cradle boards while they worked, and they weren’t allowed to leave the cradle boards or start crawling until about 10 months of life. In Rome, children were given to a wet nurse for the first five or six years of their lives because infant mortality was so high the parents didn’t want to become “too attached” just in case that child ended up dying. In Greece fathers didn’t even see their own sons until the age of five, because women lived in and raised their children in separate parts of the household. Or how about Carthage, where parents would routinely sacrifice their children in exchange for some favor from the gods.

    My point is, not all cultures had this perfect, blissful way of raising children. In some cultures (the Comanche) people were forced to work so hard that they couldn’t give their babies freedom to explore or even a whole lot of one-on-one time. In other cultures girls were so despised that they were routinely neglected or even killed. So how can you say that “the way the ancients did it was better?” In many cases it was brutal and horrible. Yet that’s how the children in those cultures “were adapted.” You can’t just say that all human babies are only adapted to being carried around in slings and breastfed until age 12 because that’s how it was done in a few cultures. It certainly wasn’t done that way in all of them.

    • Therese

      It sounds like you are confusing “cultural parenting” with “evolutionary parenting”. What cultures have done in the last few thousand years isn’t really even relevant to evolution.

      • Eddie

        I imagine the point is that the variety of ways of raising children in known history are probably representative of a similar variety of ways children were raised in pre-history and in times more appropriate to discussion evolution and its effects.

      • GiddyUpGo123

        Actually I think it’s the other way around, or maybe I’m misunderstanding the whole evolutionary parenting concept. The website lists baby-wearing, co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding among evolutionary parenting philosophies, all of which are cultural, not “evolutionary.”

    • Great points! In Sparta, they killed sick, weak and deformed children! I am so sick of “today’s Western parents got it all wrong” (or American parents, and as an European I can tell you that we don’t have the answers to all parenting questions, either!). I even wrote a blog post about it, because I believe that we didn’t get all things right, but many things we did right. … also we say we should be respectful of other cultures, why don’t we do the same for ours…and baby-wearing, breastfeeding on demand.. it’s just things we can do but our babies don’t depend on us doing it to thrive. They need love and attention, and that can be given in so many ways!

  • Felicitasz

    I kind of like Anna French’s opinion. πŸ™‚
    (And this is why everyone shoud write and read: this is the only way thinking people can figure out the truth for themselves.)

    • KarenJJ

      Yes, that was a fantastic response.

    • Agreed. I found that very encouraging.

    • Something From Nothing

      Although, come on, “if you are smart enough to be a parent”? Is there a test? I thought the only smart you had to be to be a parent, was the ability to have sex. Being a parent doesn’t imply anything smart at all. You don’t require smart to be a parent.

      • Eddie

        LOL, I liked the Anna French opinion, but that’s a good point.

      • Box of Salt

        Re Anna French: I read “if you are smart enough to be a parent” as being capable of making decisions about your child’s welfare – not the process of becoming a parent.

        • KarenJJ

          Yeah, I thought she was just setting the bar low on purpose, ie it doesn’t take much more than an ‘ooops’ to become a parent, and even then it is still possible to decide between choices that work for you and your kids.

  • fearlessformulafeeder

    I have to say, I was kind of flattered to be included in the list. πŸ˜‰

    • I found it weird. I’m not super familiar with your site, but I’m confused at why someone would be so adamantly against it. I can kind of understand why people get bent out of shape over perceived attacks on their personal choices (as a homebirther might be with this site), but how insecure do you have to be in your choices to perceive an attack in the mere defense of a different choice?

      I guess in spite of all the evidence, I’m still baffled that anyone would care that much how someone else chooses to nurture their child.

    • ratiomom

      I, too am baffled as to why you were on the hate list. I`ve read most of your posting history both on FB and your blog and there isn`t a single occasion where you attack breastfeeding mothers. You are just pro-choice (I know this usually means something else but it fits really well).

      Maybe this is someone who has built so much of her identity and self-image around breastfeeding that she can`t stand the idea that others don`t believe that it is the most important aspect of parenting. Or an extreme lactivist who you rubbed the wrong way. Either way it`s sad and scary.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        ” I think it really helps moms stop feeling guilty about not breastfeeding.”

        That’s precisely why the FFF was on the hate list. The people who would censor her WANT bottle feeders to feel guilty.

    • I don’t get it, I also read your blog and I think it really helps moms stop feeling guilty about not breastfeeding. My son is almost 3 months old and breastfed, my girls were 12 and 14 months when they stopped. And I really appreciate your blog because I can feel grateful that I have the possibliity and the choice to NOT breastfeed if I didn’t want to or wasn’t able to…

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        That’s exactly the reason it was included: The people who list it as a blog they’d like to disappear want you to feel guilty about formula feeding, regardless of your individual circumstances.

        • Lisa from NY

          But they don’t want you to feel any guilt if your baby dies in a home birth.

          • Bambi Chapman

            Actually, they want you to feel all the guilt while the midwife has none.

          • Rhea S

            no no, it’s the medical system that deserves all the guilt and blame. mothers/midwives/doulas are always blameless for terrible/sadly uninformed decisions they might make.

          • Amazed

            Unless the mother dares doubt her midwive and imply that her baby’s death was preventable. Then, she gets the blame.

        • Mind boggling, I just don’t get it.

    • ejohns313

      Well, it proves there is a need for your voice in the dialogue. Your role is to provide comfort and support for vulnerable new moms. Now we can see there actually are people who are against that — it’s not just a figment imagined by the guilt-ridden subconscious of a formula feeder.

    • PollyPocket

      From what I’ve read, you probably make the top-10 list for nicest and most introspective/self-aware on the Internet. Maybe I don’t follow closely enough and I missed the post where you advocated mandatory mastectomies to prevent anyone from ever breast feeding and then organized a world-wide effort to break into the houses of breast-feeding mothers and prop bottles for their innocent babies who are peacefully sleeping in their cribs.

    • rh1985

      As someone who will be formula feeding from the start so I can take medications, I LOVE your blog.

    • Jennifer2

      I know, I was excited to see two of my favorite blogs were the first two mentioned! I must be reading good stuff.

  • yentavegan

    I want to share some sage advice with a cousin who is due with her first baby and is 33 years old. here is what I would like to say to her.
    Your due date was 2 days ago. Please have a non-stress test, If the NST results show your baby is doing fine then you have options.
    option 1. Do nothing. Everything is fine
    option 2. Continue having NST’s if possible until labor kicks in hopefully sometime in the next week.
    If the NST shows problems, and if your cervix has not thinned out or dilated schedule a c/sec.
    or is it healthier to have labor induced rather than c/sec for a NST that shows baby is having some trouble.
    what does a NST actually measure?

    • Lisa from NY

      I once asked a similar question to Dr. Amy. This test can tell if the baby will survive in utero the next few days, but cannot predict how it will survive the birth itself.

      Meaning, even if the NST says the baby is fine, it may still not be breathing once it is born.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “or is it healthier to have labor induced rather than c/sec for a NST that shows baby is having some trouble.”
      Depends on how the other tests of fetal well-being turn out. A non-reactive NST is not a diagnosis in itself. But it will prompt getting more info: For instance the OB will do an ultrasound and see how the amniotic fluid and placenta are doing etc. And maybe do a stess test (as opposed to a non stress test/NST) and see how the baby does during a contraction. Does the heart rate drop in response to even a small contraction? That’s not a good sign. You have to take all these into account when deciding whether a trial of labor/induction is a good bet. This is where the expert training and experience of a OB is so important.

      “what does a NST actually measure?”
      A NST (non stess test) is a test that measures the baby’s heart rate on a strip before labor even starts. It’s called “non stress” because there are no contractions yet occuring that could stress out the baby. Thus it can help predict how the baby will do as long as there is no labor, but can’t tell us for sure if the baby will tolerate the increased demands once labor starts. A healthy baby’s heart should show plenty of reserve energy. For instance, when you or I move or hear a loud noise or even think an exciting thought, our pulse increases for a time. That’s called an acceleration. The same should be true for a term fetus. However if you were not getting enough oxygen, you would tend not to move much and your heart rate would just be doing it’s best to hold onto a normal rate, it wouldn’t have any reserve in order to increase its rate. This produces a “flat strip” without any accelerations. This can be due just to the baby sleeping, so if the OB sees a flat strip they will hold a noise-making buzzer up to the mom’s belly. This should wake the baby up and cause an acceleration due to the surprise. If that doesn’t work, that’s worrisome and you need more tests (like I talked about above).

      • PoopDoc

        I’m still not sure how I made it through two pregnancies without ever having one of these…

  • Zen Parenting

    How is she responsible for the comments her readers make? She said nothing about this or any other blog in her question. She simply posed it. Obviously, you’ve made an impact on her readers, but that has nothing to do with her.

    • KarenJJ

      Well that’s a cop out. I don’t advocate racism, I just merely ask the question whether black kids should be allowed at my kids school. I take no responsibility for the answers of my readers…. I simply posed it.
      No she didn’t have a position of censoring information for other women, she just simply posed the question.

      • Sue

        Yep. Asking questions like that is known as ”push polling”.

    • suchende

      Isn’t it enough that she wants to silence someone? Whatever happened to “I don’t agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it”?

      • I dunno. I don’t think saying “I wish I could just shut this person up” is really the same thing as advocating actual censorship. It’s just idle thinking.

        • suchende

          I don’t really see the distinction. Or rather, I don’t think it’s as meaningful as you seem to. Is saying “I wish women needed an Rx for formula” really much better than “advocating” (whatever you mean by that) for Rx formula only?

          • That’s a little different I think, because it’s pushing a specific viewpoint, and using hypothetical language is just a way of avoiding responsibility. The initial comment we’re talking about here isn’t really making a political statement… To me it sounds like your average throwaway Facebook status – it’s an invitation for a complaint session, not a call to action.

            There’s a difference between saying: “I wish x blog didn’t exist!” And “X blog SHOULD not exist!” Especially on Facebook. My impression is that just because she’s asking “what blog would you ban if you could,” doesn’t mean she would actually ban a blog if given the power.

          • suchende

            “My impression is that just because she’s asking “what blog would you ban if you could,” doesn’t mean she would actually ban a blog if given the power.”

            I think it pretty obviously means that. Which blog is ambiguous, but A blog? Definitely.

          • The way I read it, she’s posting a random bitchfest inducing statement to Facebook, not pushing for actual censorship. She’s using censorship as hyperbole, not meant to be taken seriously as, “yeah really, how do we get these sites taken down.” Which IS how some of her followers might be taking it, but that’s a different conversation.

            For example, I see a world of difference between someone idly saying they wish they could ban a blog, and The Feminist Breeder’s actual attempts (and encouragement of other attempts) to shut down this blog. I have no doubt that Gina would ban this blog if she had that power. I’m not remotely convinced that the poster of the above has that intent.

            I mean it’s Facebook. People aren’t particularly careful about how they phrase things. I read “I wish I could ban x blog” as “x blog drives me crazy.”

          • Eddie

            While you may be right about that, it still illustrates a way of thinking that I find less than impressive. I would never say, “I wish I could ban X” as a way of expressing, “X makes me crazy.” I agree with you that some people think this way, and it’s legitimate to speculate that this is what that poster meant. But even if the author meant, “what blogs drive you crazy” it still shows that the author thinks of opposition as something to be potentially suppressed.

            In other language, if you’re correct that censorship wasn’t the first order effect, then it was instead a second order effect. It’s still there in her thinking or she wouldn’t ask the question that way.

          • I think it has more to do with lazy language. You might have a point about a hidden impulse to suppress… but we all have fleeting impulses.

            Maybe I’m stressed out by my two mortgages and two car payments and so I wish I could just rob a bank and move to New Zealand. It doesn’t mean I’m seriously contemplating a life of crime, it doesn’t mean I think it’s a GOOD course of action. MAYBE you could argue that my statement shows if freed from legal obligation I would abandon my responsibilities, but that doesn’t mean I’d agree that I should be freed from legal obligation.

            So I guess I agree that the impulse for suppression is there in her thinking… I just don’t think that’s such a huge deal. Probably a lot of people wish they could do something drastic on occasion, but for the most part, they don’t make the drastic choice.

          • Anj Fabian

            Saying:
            “Blog X makes me crazy.”
            acknowledges that the some of the responsibility lies with the speaker. One of the obvious responses to that statement is “If that blog upsets you, then you may wish to avoid it.”.

            IOW – it takes two to tango.

            Now conjuring up a mini e-mob complete with torches and pitchforks by saying:
            “Which blog would you like to run out of town?”.

            That’s something else. That changes the dynamics. It’s not just you and that blog. It’s you and your FBFs versus that blog.

          • Eddie

            I try to teach that exact point to my kids when they say, “He made me angry” to justify their reaction. That way of putting it puts all of the onus on the person who made them angry. I point out that they (my kids) *chose* to react the way they did, even if in the heat of the moment. I try to teach that we are all responsible for our actions, and that we cannot blame our actions on other people. Of course, they don’t like to hear that. Who wants to be responsible for their own actions? So much easier to blame others.

            Now, my kids are still kids. It’s age appropriate for them to think that way. I still challenge it when I see it, but I don’t think less of them for it. When I see adults thinking that way, however, I do think less of them.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            ” But even if the author meant, “what blogs drive you crazy” it still shows that the author thinks of opposition as something to be potentially suppressed.”

            It seems to me that the most interesting question is WHY this blog drives them crazy. If they had a modicum of insight, they would recognize that they feel threatened by it. Then the question they would need to ask themselves is why they feel threatened by accurate scientific information.

            They feel threatened by accurate scientific information for two reasons: 1. This blog makes it startlingly obvious that the women who pride themselves on being “educated” about childbirth, vaccines, etc. are actually profoundly ignorant; 2. Most importantly, this blog threatens their fragile self-esteem, based, as it is, on claiming to be superior to other mothers.

            For some of these women, if vaginal birth and breastfeeding aren’t counted as “achievements,” they are left with no achievements at all. Therefore, they fight fiercely to block, ban and censor anyone and anything that calls their “achievements” into question.

            For example, the FFF is obviously very supportive of breastfeeding and is a far nicer person than I am, but her message is extremely threatening. If it’s okay to formula feed than they are providing their children with nothing special and can’t feel superior because they are breastfeeding. That, of course, is anathema.

          • Eddie

            I agree with you on all counts. I find it ironic — yet not surprising at all — just how fragile the egos are of some of those people. They build their ego around something incorrect and then have to erase all dissent to preserve that ego.

            Quite frankly, a large fraction of the people who change the world are not nice people, and that’s no surprise. It’s too important to me to be fair, to be reasonable, and that causes me to hold back. Not having perused the FFF site, it sounds like others are saying she does the same. I think I have a very positive influence in my corner of the world, but my personality is not the right kind of strong to change the world.

            What you are, Dr Amy, that so many of your opponents are not, is adult, and you treat your audience as adults as well. You give your sources and trust that we can judge if the source is worthwhile or not.. When you get caught in a mistake (who doesn’t make mistakes?) you correct yourself and don’t bury it and pretend it never occurred. You allow strongly dissenting voices to say anything they want on your blog. You don’t feel the need to continuously scour the internet to correct someone’s misunderstanding of who you really are. (Hi, Gina.) Your self esteem is clearly not tied into whether others “get it” or not, or whether others “get you” or not. I respect that (all of the above) a lot.

          • Squillo

            Yes.

            Moreover, it’s very, very easy to get speech suppressed online, and it’s a small step from “I wish I could shut X up” to actually attempting to do it. Sometimes, it takes the bank-account crushing power of a lawsuit to prevent it, which essentially means that free speech is fully available only to the wealthy.

            The OP might have been blowing off steam, but I think it’s troubling in that it’s emblematic of a wider shift in society. Words are important, and we seem to live in a world in which book-burning, banning, and actual, government-sanctioned censorship is deemed not only acceptable, but desirable in so-called “advanced” societies.

          • stacey

            You are right, it isn’t a big thing to have a thought experiment about which blogs/shows you would get rid of. I DREAM about erasing Rush Limbaugh’s show, I would take ol’ hateful Pat Robertson off the air ASAP, and at the very least, would make all news shows, and other media that portrayed itself as factual, actually factual.

            Of all the things to ban, all the inaccurate, hateful, anti woman, violent, racist, media that effect millions of lives every day, they choose THIS blog? And FFF? Really? I think these are great blogs, but if you are going to fantasize about eliminating certain programs, why not aim a little higher!?

          • suchende

            See, I can’t relate to that at all. I want every viewpoint to have their opportunity at the mike.

          • Eddie

            Good points.

            If I were asked “What would you ban?” My response would be, “Nothing. If I had the kind of power to ban (fill in least favorite show/blog/whatever), I’d rather use that power to change the world so that no-one would care to listen to it. Banning it without fixing the underlying problems that cause it to be popular would change very little.”

            I simply do not see dissent — even unreasoning idiotic dissent — as something to be suppressed by any means, ever. (Assuming they are within the law, not advocating violence, etc…) If someone trolls a particular blog and takes it off topic or destroys all normal topical conversation, by all means ban them. But not because they are a voice of dissent but because they are too disruptive. That’s different. But if they then make their own blog, let them have at it on their blog. Who cares what they say? If someone makes fun of me, mocks me, is sarcastic about me on some other blog, who cares?

          • KarenJJ

            It’s an odd way of wording it and it still speaks from a place I disagree with. It’s not worded as which blog do you dislike the most, but which blog do you wish you could restrict access for others.

            It is this distinction that I dislike about what they are discussing. Parents should be free to access different viewpoints and different information and make the decisions that best suit their families. Even if those decisions are different from those that you’d make. I do think they are describing, not blogs that they themselves dislike, but blogs they think are dangerous because they promote different methods then what they do.

            I came to that conclusion because FFF was included in the list. Dr Amy’s tone and tactics can be divisive, but FFF isn’t. The only reason I think that she’d annoy someone is because of the message she can bring to others.

  • Athora

    Okay so Evolutionary Parenting (that post in particular) sent me here. I had never heard of Dr Amy or this blog. I had a hospital birth and although I don’t plan on having another child any time soon, it was going to be a homebirth or birthcenter birth. I must say after spending a few hours on this blog my mind has pretty much been changed. I didn’t have the luxury of having a great doc to deliver my son, we moved when I was 8 months pregnant and I had to pick one asap and well….I picked the D-bag of O.B’s and he has since retired (40 years too late).

    I used to hate doctors but now I know there are good doctors and bad ones, just like with anything. I think now my plans for #2 are to find an O.B I vibe with and have my MIL as my doula again (she rocked). Saves me money and peace of mind. I don’t have to worry that if something goes wrong nothing will be done about it, to me that just is not worth it…even the dreams of a peaceful waterbirth ;)…with dolphins….(just kidding!)

    So yea, thanks to Evolutionary Parenting for sending me here and doing the opposite of what they intended.

    • Bombshellrisa

      Sounds like a good plan-one of our local hospitals has something it calls “OB Speed Dating”, you get to meet and greet and see who you click with. Maybe there is a hospital near you that does something like that? Worth looking into.

      • Athora

        That sounds like a great idea, we are moving out of state next month and I will for sure check that out in the future. We just had really bad timing with my first pregnancy. But I must say the hospital birth wasn’t too bad and I did have a birth plan and not everything went as I had thought, but that’s life. I have my beautiful, healthy child and choose not to dwell on the bad parts of my birth experience. And yea…no thoughts were going to make my pain better and I ended up doing Stadol (no epi though). The stadol took the edge off enough ;). The fact that I didn’t do an epi and another mother did doesn’t make me better than her. I feel sorry for women who think that way πŸ™ We don’t all go through life with a cloned, exact experience as one ano ther so why is birth expected to be the same experience for everyone?

        It is so refreshing to read some of these blog posts and comments after 3 years of mostly looking at things like Evolutionary Parenting. I am not bashing them or anything but I will take a little reading from here and there and other places and find what suits me and my family best.

        • Sue

          Thanks for coming across and reading intelligently, Athora. You are likely to find friends here. Best wishes for your adventure!

        • Eddie

          When you’re ready to have a child, definitely check out the hospitals in your area and ask them about their practices. Interview them. The hospital my wife and I chose for her birth was fantastic. She loved that nothing was forced on her, that they always explained every option and let her make the choice. They still had a well-baby nursery, but by default the baby slept in the same room with mom — if mom wanted it. They didn’t make an ideological issue about breast feeding vs formula feeding.

          My wife changed OBs shortly after the birth. Her original OB was chosen as someone who speaks her native tongue, and he wasn’t a great doctor. Very patronizing. (She told me this is typical of doctors from her country.) Fortunately, we got a different OB from that practice when she delivered, so we didn’t have to deal with him. But she ended up giving up on that practice and going with an American Ob/Gyn, who is much, MUCH better than the previous one. She actually listens to my wife. The previous doc loved to say, “Don’t worry,” which as I mentioned elsewhere on one occasion ended up in an ER visit as he chose to not investigate what turned out to be an ovarian cyst. This on a woman who’d had a cyst hemorrhage when she was younger.

          The best way to get what you want is to be an assertive and pro-active health care consumer.

        • stacey

          People are often very surprised to find such a diversity the of opinions in the comments, especially among regulars. The people that comment are my favorite part of reading this blog.

          Most surprising, to newbies, are the number of HB moms that are regulars here, as well as the amount of moms that chose/are choosing NCB. Contrary to popular belief, we do NOT all agree on birth or parenting, nor do we all “hate” HB or NCB.

          I can say with confidence, the only thing we all agree on is that misinformation and lying liars that lie are very dangerous.

          There aren’t many UCers, and basically no straight up anti vaxxers, unless they are hiding. We have some moms that do delayed/alternative schedule though.

          If you are open minded, and interested in hearing a variety of opinions, this can be fun blog to read. WELCOME

          • Athora

            Yea, I have spent time on the comments too, lots of good info. What is a “UCer?”

            Funny you mention antivaxxers…I am one! Not looking to start that debate though. I had reactions to them as a baby and chose not to vaccinate my son. He is happy and healthy and I feel it was the best choice for my family but most of my friends vaccinate their kids. I also cosleep and still breastfeed my almost 3 year old. But I am opneminded and like balance. I am happy to be here and learn as much as I can.

          • suchende

            I don’t think avoiding vaccinations due to family history of reactions makes you an “anti-vaxxer.” It makes you a person who should be doubly pro-vaccinations.

          • Athora

            I’m confused…I should be pro vax because of my reactions as a baby,child? Please explain πŸ™‚

          • suchende

            Because your children’s health depends on everyone else keeping up on vaccinations.

          • Squillo

            Because herd immunity protects those who can’t/won’t vaccinate, like you and your son.

          • Amazed

            Because herd immunity depends on the willingness of all those who can vaccinate to actually do it and that imminity is what protects people like you and your child.

          • UC is unassisted childbirth. Mom dad and the family cats. Maybe a helpful toddler or three.

    • Meagan

      If you don’t find an OB you click with, you can also check into CNMs in your area. I had a hospital birth with CNM, all the benefits and comforts that NBC activists like to claim you can’t get in a hospital (birthing tub, baby slept in room etc), but the safety of anti- strep B antibiotics and was down the hall from the OR with a 24 hour on site Ob backup. I didn’t get an epidural either, but I probably will next time because apparently childbirth really hurts. πŸ˜‰

      • Athora

        Yes! That was who I was seeing for the first 8 months, she was awesome. But due to moving out of county right before my son was born I had to get someone new. I will keep them in mind for next time though. Sadly my hospital didn’t have a birthing tub but that is something I will scope out in the future πŸ™‚

    • suchende

      I wish my MIL and I had so great a relationship she could be my doula. Lucky duck!

      • Athora

        Seriously! I have 2 MIL’s technically…one super awesome one and one MIL-Zilla who my husband doesn’t even speak to. I have heard many horror stories of MIL’s so I feel very fortunate.

    • Ainsley Nicholson

      Some OB practices in the USA have several OBs that take turns being on-call at the hospital. You meet each of them at least once during your pre-natal care, and exactly which one you have at your birth will depend on when you go into labor, but you know it will be someone that you are familiar with and not a stranger if your regular OB is unavailable that day (OBs have illnesses and family emergencies just like the rest of us). The practice I’m going to is like this, and it gives me peace-of-mind.

    • staceyjw

      Wonderful! It is so nice to hear someone that did not agree, but still took the time to investigate further. I applaud you for your intellectual honesty. There is quite a bit of info available here, much of it is in the comments. Someone will help answer just about anything if you ask.

      NCB in a hospital is very possible, here is some info that might help you. I am sorry it is long, I am wordy πŸ™‚

      I don’t know where you live, but in many places, you CAN have a peaceful water birth in a hospital, or even in a natural birthing center located inside a typical LnD hospital (UCSD has a place like this). You might be surprised at what is available, especially on the West Coast.

      Both hospitals where I had my kids had a jacuzzi tub in every room, the place I had DD also had a suite of extra big tubs for water birthing only. Some hospitals will restrict you to water labor only (for safety reasons), but this particular place actually offers water BIRTH. The best part (other than quick access to a CS and NICU)? If you do not like the water, or if it does not provide enough comfort, you can still get an epidural or other pain medication.

      There are other things available that aid in NCB that people don’t know to ask about, like hospital based CNMs, and technology like wireless and water proof CEFM. This allows you to walk and go in the tub, while staying on the CEFM (important for a VBAC for example). Most places will have squat bars and birth balls, and you can ask for a saline/hep lock instead of an IV (safety without the added hassle).

      Some hospitals even have their own doulas that are free, or are partnered up with a community resource to provide them (I know you don’t need one, its info for others). As for pain relief- see if they offer “walking” epidurals, or, even better, PCA- patient controlled anesthesia, its an epidural on a pump and only you get to hit the button.

      If you need a CS (not a stat CS), many places allow you to touch and hug the baby right in the delivery room, and have your partner hold them. You can have skin to skin in recovery, if you are able and willing. Some even offer “natural” CS, where you can “help” deliver the baby, delay clamping, and more, but this is mostly for planned CS.

      Policies for the baby. Every place I have been: you/partner can cut the cord, do delayed clamping, skin to skin is encouraged, delayed weighing and measuring, parent can do the fist bath, IBCLC/ nurse lactation consultants were available, pumps are available, you could room in with your baby. I personally like access to a well baby nursery, which is great if you are alone and exhausted.

      ****I hate to say this, but you can opt out of lots of routine stuff for the baby, but I would NEVER encourage such things. I only add it because of the NCB perception that you lose control of everything in the hospital. These things are: vitamin K (missing this can be deadly, and makes no sense to skip it), eye ointment (blindness if you have the bacteria, again, IMO not worth the risk) testing for rare diseases like PKU (skipping this is horrible, IMO) and the hep B vaxx (an easy to catch VPD, opting out is not a good idea)***

      That said….
      Many hospitals have greatly improved, but the in some areas this is not the case and availability of good LnD is variable. By choosing the hospital first, then finding a doc that has privileges there, you have the best chance at a good experience. This way, if you don’t get your own doc, at least you will be in a hospital where you like (or at least are aware of) their policies.

      I am spoiled by living in the PNW, where maternity care is excellent even for those on Medicaid. I have a lot of sympathy for moms that live in parts of the south, and now understand their desire for a HB.

      Best luck to all!

      • Athora

        Wow, I think I got the short end of the stick with my hospital…lol. Hey I didn’t have a tub or squat bar but they let me sit on a toilet during contractions! Also my husband was supposed to cut the cord and the OB did it without even asking my husband. I am definitely gonna need to be more assertive before and during birth next time.

        We did do the eye solution, Vit K, PKU but opted out of the Hep B. Oh and also we are in California right now πŸ™‚

        • suchende

          My husband told the OB upfront he didn’t want to cut the cord and they were like, “are you SURE? Are you really, really, REALLY sure?”

          • Ashley Wilson

            My husband was the same way. We had a really good rapport with our doctor and he kind of laughed at my husband because he was completely unsurprised by his reaction. In the end my stepmom cut the cord. The doc held out the scissors basically asking the room who wanted a go.

            But I agree with everything that’s listed here. Personally, what I did was when I was looking for my doc, one big requirement was that he had a long list of hospitals that he had privileges at. As we got closer, I checked out several hospitals that were close to, asked him, asked his staff, asked our pediatrician, about their preferences (that’s also something to keep in mind. If you want YOUR ped to be the one who checks out the baby, I found it was easier that my OB had flexibility since we were first time parents and didn’t pick a ped until much later).

            In the end we ended up going with the only hospital near us that wasn’t a baby friendly hospital, something that I wouldn’t have even thought of when we first picked my doc but were able to go with since he had such a great list. I wouldn’t have ever thought of that when we were looking around at first but I realized I wasn’t going to be breastfeeding due to a medical reason and I didn’t want to get hassled. But he had privileges at my hospital, the hospital that had the best NICU in the city, the hospital close to my in laws, and even the hospital near my side of the family on the other side of the city, all of these as a Just In Case Something Goes Wrong when we weren’t near where we planned to go.

            Also, a bit of a tip if you can somehow manage it when selecting your doctor. The thing that really REALLY sold me on my doc (who I was already swooning over anyway) was when I was at 32 weeks and started to bleed unexpected, I went to the hospital (it was nothing, just a little dehydration. You need water to live, who knew!). When we got there and the nurses found out who our doctor was, every nurse we encountered, EVERY NURSE (even the ER nurse who wasn’t a part of L&D) had something positive to say about him. Not just that but they GUSHED over him. I think that made a big difference in my care because they respected him so much. So if you go the route of finding a hospital and then a doctor, ask the nurses who their favorite is.

    • Amazed

      Hey, don’t give up on the dolphins just yet! They might make a wondeful doula team with your MIL.

      All kidding aside, we often have critics who land here to scold us and say that Dr Amy and we, as her readers, make no difference and in fact, drive women further away. We sure do – diehard homebirthers won’t be swayed by a retired doctor and a bunch of readers. But it’s women who are wondering, even idly, who we might influence. Congratulations for coming here and reading, despite not agreeing.

      One of our homebirth loss mothers here, Liz P, I think, mentioned something about MDC that stayed with me. In the beginning, she didn’t think about a homebirth at all. It was there where she was introduced to the idea and in the beginning, it was just sharing and reading other women’s stories – much like you and EP. One becomes sucked without realizing it, so congratulations for looking around for other places with different POVs.

      Oh, and I wish you an easy pregnancy when you decide you want one, a jpyful birth and, of course, the most important part of the equation – a healthy and loud (in the very first hour only!) little one.

      • Sarah M

        No, you are wrong. Dr Amy changed the mind of this die hard home birth advocate. I felt threathened by what Dr Amy was saying, and that feeling got me to question all that I thought was true. If she can change me, she can change just about anyone with half a brain.

      • Athora

        Thanks πŸ™‚ I try to be pretty open minded. But some of the natural birthers (people and pages) can basically use fear tactics when it comes to docs and hospitals…it’s an all or nothing mentality and it can lead to you feeling like you have to pick a side.

        My first pregnancy was pretty easy and my birth, although didn’t go according to plan, was swift and uncomplicated enough. And my next pregnancy might go the same way but if it doesn’t at least I have the peace of mind of knowing it will be handled to the best of the staff’s ability. I look forward to staying here and learning more πŸ™‚

  • Esther

    OK, so we know that Dr Amy is meeeen!!! and thus deserves to be banned, but the fact that there are so many votes for banning Fearless Formula Feeder and a couple for banning Science of Mom – both of whose blogs are far milder in tone – is very telling.

    • rh1985

      God forbid someone read FFF and realize they don’t have to put themselves through misery to prove themself if BF just isn’t working for mom and/or baby.

    • Sue

      I love the fact that other bloggers’ rants about Amy just brings more people here – and many of us stay. (Happened to me with anti-vaxers. Own goal, AVN!

      Oh – and update on anti-vax in Australia – a local newspaper is campaigning for vaccination as a requirement for child care, unless legit exemption. AVN is on the back foot, and squirming furiously. Meryl Dorey has compared the new laws to the Holocaust. CHeck out the thread on avn.org.au – click on blog – see where she supports her position against a Rabbi. Insight = ).

      • Eddie

        Their tagline, “Because every issue has two sides” is simply wrong. I do like the disclaimer they have to have about their name.

        • Squillo

          Every issue does have two sides: right and wrong. πŸ˜‰

          • Eddie

            LOL, I think of the Simpsons:

            Homer Simpson: Kids: there’s three ways to do things; the right way, the wrong way and the Max Power way!

            Bart: Isn’t that the wrong way?

            Homer Simpson: Yeah, but faster!

      • MikoT

        unless legit exemption

        They’re still going to allow conscientious objections though. Still a step in the right direction.

      • KarenJJ

        I went to the avn page, first time in a while. Love the new disclaimer πŸ™‚

      • Squillo

        I’ve long maintained that Meryl “Own-goal” Dorey is the best thing that’s happened to the pro-vaccine folks in a long time.

      • Box of Salt

        For anyone having trouble navigating the AVN site, here’s a link to a summary by Reasonable Hank:

        http://reasonablehank.com/2013/05/30/meryl-doreys-struggle-is-it-the-same-as-six-million-murdered-jewish-people/#comments

        • Eddie

          Very helpful. Thank you.

    • antigone23

      Yep. FFF tries really hard to be diplomatic. She is totally supportive of breastfeeding. It just proves that a lot of people out there don’t want formula feeders to be supported at all and want to disappear any critical analysis and research that shows breastfeeding is not the magical elixir they want to believe.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        But who isn’t “totally supportive of breastfeeding,” for those who want to do it?

        I have never heard ANYONE say, “No, you shouldn’t try to breastfeed.” I have heard people say, “You’ve given it a great effort, but it isn’t working” but that is only when it has come clear that there is an issue.

        If someone says, “I am going to try breastfeeding,” it’s not like anyone ever says “don’t.”

        “Supporting breastfeeding” does not mean that you villianize formula feeding.

        • Guesteleh

          Depends on what part of the country you’re in. I hear that in the south breastfeeding is still somewhat taboo and nursing mothers are seen as weird.

          Re: “fearless” stories, FFF has posted some unapologetic stories lately. I think maybe she’s given up on playing nicey nice with the wackjobs.

          • Eddie

            When i lived in the south, I never saw anything to indicate that breast feeding was taboo. Maybe breast feeding in public, but not breast feeding in and of itself. I always lived in the suburban South, never the hicks. It could very well be different there.

    • Adrianna

      Agreed. I support breastfeeding also, and I support, within reason, the right of a woman to breastfeeding. That said, I feel that FFF bends over backwards to accommodate pro-nursing sentiment. I have stopped reading that blog because all too often, I feel the accommodating crosses the border into outright pandering and I can find that anywhere. I don’t come to FFF for more of the same. That said, it takes all kinds, and the fact that lactivists react so strongly to FFF tells me what everyone else is saying. It doesn’t matter what you say or how you say it. It doesn’t matter how much or how well you accommodate the other side. Some members of that other side just don’t think you deserve to exist. People that see bottle feeders as ignorant, self-centered child abusers don’t think the other side has a right to express itself and it’s a waste of time to pander to them. They don’t deserve it.

      • stacy #99

        COULDN’T AGREE MORE.

        I love FFF and think she is great, and is an important voice.
        I agree that FFF is a perfect example of why tone just does not matter to some people. No matter how conciliatory you are, some people will still attack you just for existing.

        FFF is more “not too Fearless- only after spending the mandatory million hours trying to BF with pumps LCs off labels meds and herbs and still failing with shame and misery for being a horrible mommy which I must describe in excruciating detail so that BF mommies know that they really are truly superior and I wish I was them but cant be so please please dont be meeeean to me or judge I swear I wont ever say anything other than breast is best- Formula Feeder”

        I know there is a place for this attitude, and know it is good for moms to share their stories, but just ONE time I would like to see an actual fearless story.

        • MichelleJo

          I formula fed all my kids, and get a kick out of saying to people things like “bottle fed from the delivery room” or “Yep, bottle fed EXCLUSIVELY”, or “don’t you know that studies show that it’s healthier to formula feed? That way they get enough iron and vitamin D.”

          I once went a bit too far when a mom told me she was pumping her milk and then feeding it in a bottle, and I asked her if she borrowed the pump from a farm. I apologized and said I was just kidding.

          What would life be like if not for formula?!

        • AmyM

          I like to think my story was fearless. I did give BFing a try, and I did tell about how/why (to the extent that I knew) it wasn’t working. But, I didn’t feel guilty about it and I said so. I never hid the bottles, I never lied about formula feeding, etc. I’ll admit I also live in an area that doesn’t seem super-crunchy, and I work in science where the majority of the parents there (at my job) at least partially formula fed. I never felt any pressure to feel guilty. I did feel relieved when I finally took that stupid pump back to the hospital. But, I am not the best writer, and my point might not have come across how I wanted it to. (I told a story of having twins, it was posted on a friday several years ago)

          Like you, I wish more women would feel less guilty, because they don’t need to. I think the fearless formula friday this week is a genuinely fearless one….check it out if you haven’t already. πŸ™‚

        • Bomb

          I’ve read quite a few stories from people that were just “No.” In regards to BF. The other stories I can relate to because it is a journey through darkness where you *think* all the bs about failing and BF moms being superior, only to come out the other side and realize it was total BS.

      • fearlessformulafeeder

        Ah, well, this bums me out (especially the 13 likes, wah) but I understand why you feel this way. In defense of the FFF Friday stories- I simply post what I get. And sadly, I don’t GET many “I formula fed from the start and don’t give a crap” stories, probably because they would max out at a paragraph or two. I think people who agonized over the decision and are still harboring guilt/resentment/fear/anger/sadness over their situation are more likely to need the catharsis of writing about it. In other words, I don’t have much control over the submissions, and I *do* think there have been some more “fearless” stories lately (Amy, who commented below, was one of the first good examples of this, but she was earlier on in the history of FFF) and I am grateful for that.

        As for my own posts- yeah, I do end up pandering sometimes. I suppose I don’t see it as “pandering” as much as “trying to maintain a middle ground so that those who aren’t totally fanatical may actually agree with me and therefore change the face of lactivism”. But speaking of fanatics, I am, admittedly, a “middle ground” fanatic. Politically neutral. Live and let live (within reason- not a fan of the anti-vax stuff or animal abuse or sad clowns). This also makes me a less convincing champion of “fearless” feeding, and I regret the choice of blog name every. freaking. day. I liked alliteration, so sue me. πŸ˜‰

        Anyway – point is, I appreciate the feedback. For the record, I don’t like the crazies any more than you do. I am trying to create real change in an atmosphere that is scarily one-sided, and I think we need amazingly strong, unapologetic voices like Dr. Amy (big fan of this blog even though I don’t comment all that often) as well as voices which try to be less polarizing. There’s a space for all of us, and we reach different audiences. Thank god there’s more than one of us out there.

        • Eddie

          FYI: I “liked” that post (I’m one of the 13) not because of any criticism of you, but instead because of the second half, beginning with, “the fact that lactivists react so strongly to FFF tells me what everyone else is saying. It doesn’t matter what you say or how you say it. It doesn’t matter how much or how well you accommodate the other side. Some members of that other side just don’t think you deserve to exist”

          I expect that I am not alone in that. I haven’t previously read your blog, so I cannot have any opinion on your tone.

          My wife and I were fearless about formula feeding — in truth, supplementing and not exclusive formula feeding. But my wife has absolutely no interest in this kind of thing, in blogs or raising awareness. She’s the concrete thinker; I’m the abstract one. But any story we’d write would be very short and pretty boring. We never ran into any opposition. None. Everyone we met was supportive of any decision we made in this area. Lucky.

    • Bomb

      Well, if you formula feed it should be with shame and without guidance. Duh.

  • Eddie

    I like this one:

    definitely Ask Dr Amy, what a crazy!! She actually hurts women

    Gee, I didn’t know that you actually sought out these women and caused bodily harm. Wait, you don’t? Oh, she means emotional hurt? Where’s my tiny violin for these people who are so easily hurt?

    I also enjoy the overuse of the word “troll.” It’s quite silly. These people miss one critical part of the definition of trolling, which is that you’re pissing people off purely for the enjoyment of doing so, and for no other reason.

    I also found this comment entertaining:

    I’m glad no one is actually posting links (because I would be so compulsed to click them and find out the deal) and I’m glad I’m not familiar with any of these.

    In other words, she doesn’t want to think for herself. She wants others to tell her what is good to read or not.

    And, no surprise, I *love* this comment by Lizzie Dee: http://www.skepticalob.com/2013/05/homebirth-midwives-and-postpartum-hemorrhage.html#comment-915894968

  • deafgimp

    I haven’t checked out the evolutionary parenting site, but I wonder how badly they’d shit when they realize that early peoples are being found to severely curtail breastfeeding at about 7 months of age?

  • Amy (T)

    Sorry, I can’t go look at that evolutionary parenting site, I just can’t do it. Can anyone tell me if she has even taken a course on evolution? Or is an anthropologist?

    • LukesCook

      Doubt it. Looks like AP with a sprinkling of Paleo to me.

      • Anj Fabian

        AP at least is based in the desire to do well by your family.

        Paleo is just another fad diet based on BS.

        • suchende

          God I am tempted to start a Paleo Poe blog, complete with descriptions of eating grubs, moths, spiders, etc. You know, like hunter-gatherers actually did/do.

          • Kalacirya

            I had a silkworm salad followed by a main course of roasted locust.

          • Eddie

            I would so comment on such a blog!

    • Esther

      Her website is currently down, but last I checked she was a PhD candidate in developmental psychology or something similar. Which means she might one day be actively spreading her pseudoscience in a professional capacity. Unfortunately.

  • KumquatWriter

    Advocates of choice and education and “being informed” advocating censorship. Hypocrisy much?

    I’d be pretty sad if, in my 20s or 30s (*which I’m still in) already knows all there is to know. Why live if I’m not learning?

    • Bombshellrisa

      I noticed that too. I wonder if those people can begin to understand the irony of their screeches of “educate yourself” all the while rejecting any real research or anyone more educated then they are trying to advise them.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Why was this question even asked? Who spends their time thinking about what blog they’d like to ban? I can honestly say that that question never entered my mind before reading this post…

    • Captain Obvious

      How American. Lets ask on the Internet whose liberties we would like to restrict.

      Dr Amy: You want answers?
      Woman considering Homebirth: I think I’m entitled to them.
      Dr Amy: You want answers?
      Woman considering Homebirth: I want the truth!
      Dr Amy: You can’t handle the truth! Momma, we give birth in a world that has complications. And those complications have to be managed by healthcare providers with an education and training. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, ? Tracey Cassels? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for your birth experience and you curse the Doctors and Hospitals. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Homebirth death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives…You don’t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me protecting your baby’s safe birth. You need me protecting your baby’s safe birth. I am only 5 minutes away.
      We use words like education,training, evidence based medicine, best practices, accountability, malpractice protection, good outcomes …we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use ’em as a punchline for an experience you think your entitled to. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a crunchy momma who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very safety I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I’d rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a medical degree and take call. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you’re entitled to!
      Woman considering Homebirth: Did you write a blog about ridiculing Homebirth?
      Dr. Amy: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do.
      Woman considering Homebirth: Did you write a blog ridiculing Homebirth?
      Dr. Amy: You’re goddamn right I did!!

      • KumquatWriter

        *salutes*

      • Susan

        Aye Aye Captain!

      • Aunti Po Dean

        I Looove that movie and I think I love your brain Captain

      • Karen in SC

        I’d love that acted out in a Youtube video!!

        • Stacey

          YES, and the mama HAS to be white and have dread locks.

      • Kerlyssa

        Oh. My. God. All the upvotes.

      • KarenJJ

        This is too good to just be lost in the comments!

  • Elaine

    I don’t always agree with everything on this blog, but I really enjoy both this one and Fearless Formula Feeder (even though I breastfed). I’m glad these cretins aren’t in charge of the Internet.

  • Momster

    Poor Kiersten would’ve been “compulsed” to click the links, had they been provided. Man, I hate being compulsed worse than anything!

    • Bombshellrisa

      Sounds like a word that would be in a song from the show “Nashville”.

  • Captain Obvious

    Unfortunately, many times it is the ignorant and the sheeple who just hate Dr Amy without understanding what Dr Amy’s blog is about…

    “Ally J Wilson
    Omg why did u ask this question I hate dr Amy after 1 post!! Slating midwifes calling them ‘clowns’ she should never come to the UK every birth includes a midwife”

    I don’t remember Dr Amy criticizing legitimately trained CNM midwives who work well with the medical establishment. Primarily the USA CPM, DEM, and CM. But ignorant people like Ally perpetuate the hate inappropriately. I bet if Ally and others like her did their Internet research better, they could appreciation the “flaws” in the Homebirth and midwife movement and agree with Dr Amy to weed these charlatans out or force them to become better educated. Or they can just “like” FB posts like this and sound stupid and uncaring for all the babies and moms who die at the hands of undereducated and untrained birth junkies.

    • Bombshellrisa

      How does one go about “slating midwives”?
      If she read more than one post, she would understand that UK midwives are highly trained, nothing like an American homebirth midwife. But then she would have to have reading comp skills and the patience to read through information.

  • Squillo

    I think it was Oscar Wilde (who knew a thing or two about controversy) who said, “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”

    • KumquatWriter

      When I was enmeshed in internet scandal I had ant shirt that said “Keep talking about me, bitches. You’re just making me famous!”

      • Kerlyssa

        Is this a shirt with ants on it, or a shirt worn by ants?

  • Antigonos CNM

    IMO, great free advertising. Just think of all the folks who will now check out The Skeptical OB, just so they can hate it

    • Poogles

      “Just think of all the folks who will now check out The Skeptical OB, just so they can hate it ”

      And likely, gain some converts from it. After all, that’s how I started reading Dr. Amy – looked her up after reading someone ranting about how awful she is. After many months of reading, and arguing with, Dr. Amy, I realized I’d been totally sucked into a bunch of lies, half truths and misinformation by the NCB/HB/UC movement. And I’m not the only reader/commenter here who has followed that path to Dr. Amy.

  • Gene

    Wait a second. They want to ban you and not, say, Westboro “Baptist” Church? Priorities, people…

    • WbDsgnr1

      The WBC write a blog?

  • Ann

    Isn’t banning a blog a bit like burning a book? I find it scary that they’d rather silence their critics than debate them.

    • Squillo

      And equally as effective.

  • Starling

    On the one hand, fantasizing about banning blogs is a stupid waste of time. On the other hand, if I were made dictator for a day, I too would ban Debi Pearl and all her works. That woman and her husband are responsible for more child deaths than Lisa Barrett.

    • fiftyfifty1

      I understand what you are saying. The teachings of the Pearl family are awful. However, what they have to say is not new. Christian fundamentalists have been producing “spare the rod, spoil the child” books for a long time. There is this slice of Christianity that really takes the idea of Original Sin and the need to “break the will” of the child seriously. These books would have no influence if they weren’t being endorsed by leaders (formal and informal) within churches. This is what I wish: that members of these churches who *don’t* raise their kids in abusive ways (and I think that is most of them) would get some guts and speak out against these practices. And speak out against the misogyny that is also such a problem.

      • BeatlesFan

        Well, they can’t do that, because then they would be admitting that the parts of the bible they disagree with are flawed and don’t need to be followed, while somehow preaching that the parts they DO agree with are absolutely correct, 100% god’s will. Of course, no religious people would EVER do something that silly! That’s why the people who quote the bible against homosexuality also don’t eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. Oh, wait…

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I’m not sure I’d go so far as to ban the books, but I would like to see them recatagorized as fiction, specifically horror fiction, and have disclaimer put on them that professional organizations have come out specifically stating that this is dangerous nonsense, with a lot of details about why and how this is dangerous nonsense. In other words, make sure everyone who reads it also has at least a chance to read the facts.