August 16, 2013: This week in homebirth idiocy

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The end of summer is a slow time in the blogosphere, but in the world of homebirth, the crazy never stops.

Gems from this week include:

1.Women petitions for health service coverage of an HBAC (homebirth after cesarean) against medical advice

According to the Irish Times:

University lecturer Aja Teehan, whose second child is due on October 13th, applied to have the baby born at home in Thomastown, Co Kilkenny, assisted by a midwife.

She alleged the HSE is operating a “blanket policy” of refusing to cover home births for women who previously had Caesarean section births which means she cannot have her baby at home as a midwife will not get indemnity cover to attend. Ms Teehan has a six-year-old daughter born after a Caesarean section.

Considering that the Irish court has already ruled that there is no right to a homebirth at all, there was zero chance of Teehan prevailing. This was just a publicity stunt and the judge slapped her down pretty hard:

Ms Justice Iseult O’Malley today rejected her application and said it would be “manifest irrationality” for the courts to change the criteria for home births as set out by the HSE.

The judge will now determine whether Teehan must pay court costs.

2. Unassisted birth; unlimited stupidity

Whenever I bring up the topic of having an unassisted birth (a home birth without the presence of a midwife, or medical professional, sometimes called ‘freebirth’), people look at me like I’m crazy.

Really? Do tell.

What if something goes wrong?

Personally, education is my relief when it comes to this. I’ve read countless birth stories, researched every possible complication, and how to handle it, and also educated Arick on all of the issues as well. I know what warrants an emergency enough to head to the hospital, or even more to call an ambulance. But the thing is, a lot of the complications that are common in hospital childbirth are due to the interventions that are used. Complications in a drug and intervention free birth are very rare.

Who is stupid enough to actually believe this crap?

3. Introducing the VBAC doll.

Only a picture could do it justice.

VBAC doll

Apparently the “attagirls” from the other members of your ICAN group are not enough. Now impresses your toddler and her friends, too … as if your toddler cares how her younger sibling exited her body and why you needed a healing VBAC to get over her (or his) C-section birth.

And it only costs $200!

Why are birth junkies so pathetically desperate for adulation?

4. Yet another homebirth advocate claiming that a numbingly typical homebirth is “unusual.”

This homebirth story could have been written by The Onion, it is so filled with cliches. Of course you wouldn’t expect anything else from a filmaker who created …

the FOOD MATTERS film, which helped heal my father from chronic fatigue syndrome, depression and anxiety plus free him from the pharmaceutical drug bandwagon.

It’s worth reading in full. You’ll howl with laughter. It includes the usual cast of thousands such as the midwives, the doula, the chiropractor, the lactation consultant, and the cranio-sacral therapist.

Just like in nature!

  • Robin K

    Dr., Do you dispute this review of the literature? I’m not a doctor, but the summary seems to suggest as long as hospital transfers are an option, the already low risk of planned home births (following normal pregnancies in healthy women) are even lower and don’t carry the high risk of intervention and subsequent complication, making home birth generally a good, relatively safe option. I guess nothing is 100% safe. I am curious to hear your thoughts.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD000352.pub2/abstract

    • Robin K

      Ah, I searched the review on your site and found your post regarding it from last year, so no need to reply.

  • Dr Kitty

    Could we have a sticky asking people to post their comments on the most recent post, unless specifically related to the subject of an old post?
    It’s is so annoying clicking on a “recent comment” to reply, only to find that their comment, and your reply, is to an old post and are hidden in a wall of replies that are pretty old.

    Or, in other words- LIZ EARLE- perhaps you would like to continue telling me about your midwifery company over here where I’m more likely to see your response?

    Are the NMC aware of the “high risk ” homebirths the midwives in your company are allegedly undertaking? Is your medical indemnity firm?
    Do you want to reconsider anything you previously posted about the case mix (previous PPh, VBAC) and transfer rate (3%)?

    • Karen in SC

      Or, alternately, post at the top of older post with an intro (or a copy & paste) explaining what the reference is. It is difficult to follow long discussions in the middle of the comment section.

  • Guilt-Free

    Now if only they’d naturally deliver their brains.

    • Lizz

      But their brains are exactly where nature intended them to be.

  • jenny

    I left two pretty kindly worded comments on that “unusual” birth blog, but both were deleted and the only reason I can figure is I mentioned my dead baby and how birth is unpredictable. I must be bringing the bad vibes with my dead baby. Because bad things only happen when you think about them. All the eye rolls in the world for those fools.

  • Impeding Lies

    I have CFS and it really is horrible it sucks all the people getting conned by alties because there isn’t much for conventional treatment or knowledge of this condition.

    • Lizz

      I know what you mean. I’ve been putting off letting the rest of the family know about my lupus because I don’t want to hear about gluten,sugar or needing to rid myself of toxins.

  • Lizz

    So does that velcro looking area open so I can explain my kids births to them? My three year old loves anything to do with bodies so I can see him enjoying how they opened Mommy’s tummy to get him and later his sister out. He might enjoy the doll better if you could act out the reasons why they would pull a baby out of the tummy. Maybe my kid’s just weird though because he does like watching blood tests on himself and has a bones obsession.

    • amazonmom

      Future orthopedic surgeon?

      • Bombshellrisa

        That is my kid. She is sure she wants to “fix broken bones”.

    • PollyPocket

      I can definately relate! My three year old got to assist with her first surgery on Mother’s Day and LOVED it. It was a minor lac repair, grandpa was the surgeon and mommy was the circulator, she got to hold the patients (a family friend) hand.

      She tells me everyday that she’s going to be a nurse when she grows up, and I’ll be shocked if she isn’t.

      • Lizz

        He got bored a little while ago and said that he wanted to go to the doctor because it’s fun. What kind of a child says that?

        • amazonmom

          My daughter thinks she needs to teach the pediatrician how to read. He’s always asking her to spell and read things for him when she’s there.

  • Lee G. Leissett

    Are you pro-choice? If so, why don’t you just let woman make their own decisions regarding birth and shut the fuck up? Who appointed you to “save” the world from the stupidity of homebirthers and bloggers? Who gives a shit if these woman want to give birth at home? Is it not their choice? Is it not their choice what information to believe and which to ignore? I just don’t understand your motivation; aside from shameless self-promotion.

    • attitude devant

      It’s my impression that she fully agrees that women should be able to choose. I think she sees her role as countering all the lies and pseudoscience that get promoted as fact by the homebirth industry. She’s really the only blogger taking that on. And she’s damned entertaining while she does it too. This blog has a remarkable number of regular readers. For my part, I don’t understand YOUR motivation for reading here if you find it so unpleasant.

      • Lee G. Leissett

        So you think woman who are determining their best options for birth should come here for unbiased information? Where is the testimonial link? I would like to see the evidence that any woman’s mind has be changed from the information provided on this site. This site is solely about self-promotion and creating a gathering place for likeminded individuals to bash homebirth. It has nothing to do with expanding knowledge or helping woman make an informed decision. Pathetic.

        • Life Tip

          You’ve either never read any comments on this blog ever, in which case I suggest you do so before spouting off nonsense, or you royally suck at reading comprehension.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Define “best option for birth”.

          • Lee G. Leissett

            What ever Dr. Amy says is the best. Isn’t that what you believe too?

          • Lizz

            Actually we’ve been know to respectfully disagree in the comment section and the Facebook page. Some of the regulars on here disagree with homebirth in general, some agree with it with a CNM and strict standards of practice. Reasonable people can disagree all the time on the details or tone but facts tend not to be something we disagree on.

          • wookie130

            Not necessarily, as I am capable of forming my own beliefs and attitudes about most subjects, MUCH LIKE EVERYONE ELSE that frequents and comments here. But it just so happens that Dr. Amy states a lot of truth in this blog…backed up by actual research and solid data. I don’t know about you, but I like to see REAL evidence, and no one can deny that Dr. Amy effectively backs up the statements she makes. And as far as this blog not making a difference, or changing how people view NCB and homebirth, etc., you really could not be more wrong. Many readers on here have stated that if it weren’t for this blog, they would have attempted HB, and perhaps ended up becoming one of the statistics cited here. Furthermore, I’d like to know what is wrong with debunking the outright LIES and misconceptions floating around regarding hospital vs. HB? I suppose you could call this self-promotion…I prefer to call it salvation for brain-washed moms-to-be, and their unborn children.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Back again, Lee? Remind me. Why did you flounce last time?

          • attitude devant

            I don’t think he flounced. If I had to bet, I’d say his regular cannabis habit limits his attention span.

          • Lizz

            What do you think that Dr. Amy thinks is best?

          • Bombshellrisa

            I believe the best option is the safest one for both mother and baby.

          • realityycheque

            What a ridiculous thing to say. You clearly haven’t bothered to read through many of the comments on this blog, or you would know that this simply isn’t the case.

            On numerous occasions I have seen lively debates take place in the comments section of this blog, including posts from people who have openly disagreed with Dr. Amy’s views and given more weight to their argument than, “Dr. Amy is mean”. These comments and threads are never censored and in the years I’ve visited this blog I have only seen maybe two people banned after they spouted non-stop aggressive abuse without any actual contribution to discussion.

            If any person comes here with a point to make, some decent scientific evidence on their side and more to say than, “You’re a bitch”, you can bet your bottom dollar that people would listen to what they had to say and engage in conversation with them in an open manner, unfortunately that never happens. Disappointing, really.

            You claim that the readers of this blog swallow what Dr. Amy says without question, and yet we so often see homebirthing women lapping up Ina May, Carla Hartley and Ricki Lake’s opinions at face value and without even taking a moment to question their ability, the information they’re sharing or their own motivations and biases.

        • Starling

          My dear, my mind was changed. So there’s a bit of evidence for you.

          The local birth center is well-respected and I was quite excited about it. I did loads of internet “research.” I was reading the comments on a Feministing article about Ina May Gaskin when I came across one by the Feminist Breeder, alleging that Dr. Amy had wished death on her baby. I like a little internet drama as much as the next woman, and I wanted to see what sort of utter crazy might make such a wish, and so I came over here.

          And here I am, still. The tone is strident, but the evidence is much better than that produced by the “evidence-based birth” blogs. And I am expecting and will deliver in a hospital with a CNM/OB practice in January.

          • JoAnne

            Lee, have you researched anything about the anesthesiologists, back up Ob’s, or Pediatricians? If not< not you are naive. Please, do your research. All the evidence you need, you can find at your state CDC website. Honestly the educated minds on this site commenting, really give women a bad name. Just ask about GBS testing for newborns. You may be shocked!

          • Lizz

            We give women a bad name how?

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Because everyone knows that a “testimonial link” will provide unbiased evidence!

          • PJ

            Scientific accuracy is determined by “testimonial links”? Surprising how many people really seem to think that science should be decided by democracy.

        • PJ

          This site regularly discusses research related to the safety of homebirth. Anyone is welcome to come and dispute Dr Amy’s conclusions–the funny thing, though, is that homebirth advocates never seem to address the actual science. All they ever do is write angry (and often insulting and obscene) personal attacks and claim the blog is ineffective.

          I’m another person who has had my mind changed about a lot of things, although I don’t agree with everything here. Maybe if you bothered to read a bit more, and tried to put aside your personal biases for a bit and look at the facts, you might have your mind changed too.

          • JoAnne

            MY, OH MY WHAT A CONDESCENDING SNOT WE ARE! And PJ what training do you have regarding statistics< and the "science" regarding homebirth?

          • Lizz

            Que? How about high school math? Heck maybe more the ability to do percents and compare which is bigger so more like 5th grade-ish.
            Anatomy was part of health class,high school biology for evolutionary theory and the simple knowledge that first aid would have been a much easier class if people could will themselves to stop bleeding.
            This is more me then PJ but I would bet that PJ has at least a high school diploma so statistics and science kind of go along with it usually. Heck I know it and I have a GED.

        • Captain Obvious

          There are many testimonials. They pop up throughout the threads. Maybe Dr Amy should consolidate them into a side bar link. She does have the Hurt by Homebirth website which is in a way a testimonial link. Rather than bursting out commands about information and testimonials, why don’t you read through some of the threads here. The information is all here, you just can’t take many years of blogs that occur 5 times a week and summarize for you.

          • Lee G. Leissett

            I truly hope, as much as a christian hopes for heaven, that the horrid screams and distraught faces of all the boys you have circumcised haunt your dreams. I hope as you strap the next baby boy down to the circumstraint that you make eye contact with him and the fear you see penetrates your soul.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I truly hope you develop better reasoning skills, but I’m not counting on it.

          • attitude devant

            Circumcision? We were discussing homebirth. Is this the cannabis again?

          • Lizz

            Ohh so this is what they meant in health class about marijuana screwing up you brain from repeated use. Crazy ranting and can’t keep to a topic.

          • LibrarianSarah

            What does circumcision have to do with the safety of homebirth? Please pick a topic of debate and stick with it. Don’t jump around from topic to topic once you realize you are in over your head.

          • Burgundy

            WOW, when a so call “good Christian” says things like this, just make me happy that I am a Buddhism married an Atheism. (enough sarcasm here?)

          • Captain Obvious

            Huh?? The parents want their boy circumcised.

          • Lizz

            You know they use analgesia now right? There’s no horrible screams of pain. Heck some kids hate being held down but some kids hate being held down for diaper changes. How many kids do you think fear a finger stick for iron levels or immunizations or hell being put in a papoose because they need stitches? Welcome to medicine with children it generally involves holding them down and sometimes a bit of screaming even when they’re not in pain. That’s just kids for you.

        • Lucy

          I changed my mind about a homebirth mostly because of this blog. And it’s a lucky thing I did because my baby was born with a true knot in her cord. I used hospital midwives with an OR down the hall. I still got to be “crunchy” but safe at the same time.

        • realityycheque

          *raises hand*

          In the weeks after my homebirth, when I was dealing with complications and an absent midwife who wouldn’t return my calls, I began to question homebirth and how a lot of the things I had been told by my midwife just didn’t add up, I Googled ‘I regret having a homebirth and Dr Amy’s site was one of the first to pop up. This blog and various other resources have all played a part in making a full 180 degree change in my views regarding homebirth.

        • Jessica

          This site changed my mind – not necessarily about home birth, but certainly about interventions during pregnancy and childbirth, including inductions, CEFM, and epidurals. And I am thankful for that.

        • Mishi

          *Also raises hand*
          I was questioned by an experienced CNM after the birth of my second baby as to why I hadn’t opted for a homebirth since I was apparently both a good candidate and very similar to her homebirth mums. I have since discovered that she was mistaken on both counts, but it made me wonder if I could do a homebirth with the third baby. While researching various aspects, I stumbled across this site and ended up deciding on a third hospital birth. After all, despite the claims of the crunchy crowd, I was honestly happy with how my hospital births had gone and was also slightly offended by being told how I should feel about my experiences.

          I am so glad that I decided to go with a hospital birth, this baby was the hardest and things could have gone so badly if I’d stayed at home.

        • Courtney84

          *raises hand*
          Prior to being pregnant the first time I had “hoped I’d be brave enough to have my baby at home.” I have a B.S. with a major in biology and minor in chemistry. I WANTED to believe home birth was safe, so I didn’t look into any actual science about the safety of home birth until a co-worker and med student introduced me to this blog. Four years later, I’m expecting my first child and I know I’ll be selfless enough to put my child’s safety ahead of my birth preferences.

        • Prolifefeminist

          *raises hand too*

          Thanks to this blog, I changed my mind not only about attempting another HBAC, but also about becoming a CPM myself. I hated this blog when I first came here, but I was curious so I kept reading…and discovered that much of what I’d been told about homebirth safety was a lie.

          I am grateful every day that I stumbled upon this blog, because I had severe complications with my pregnancy that had subtle symptoms and an emergency premature delivery saved my son’s life and my own. Hiring a homebirth midwife would most likely have been fatal for my little boy…and quite likely would have left my four other children motherless. So yes, I am glad Dr Amy shouts from the rooftops to anyone who will listen.

          • Lizzie Dee

            Could we have a head count of all the healthy, careful, informed women here and of our acquaintance who had complications they had never even thought of?

            And then count the careless, uniformed, and/or fearful women who had a very easy time?

            I am all in favour of people attempting to take reasoned control of their lives, but the self-congratulation of the fortunate or deluded gets on my nerves.

          • Karen in SC

            It would be great to have a tab to a roster to those of us who either changed minds or had an unexpected complication & willing to share the share the story.

            A great project for a college intern in certain IT fields. In the meantime the Blog Roll has several.

        • Guestll

          *raises hand*
          Mind changed.

        • Meerkat

          My mind was changed.

        • RC

          Mine too. I actually fired my CNM five months in and opted for a hospital birth thanks to Dr. Amy.

        • Lizz

          It gave me the facts I needed when was catching crap about having my first c-section for breech and being pressured into a VBAC I didn’t want. I needed to hear from somewhere that I wasn’t damaging my children from needing to formula feed and that other people knew what I was talking about when I said that WIC is downright abusing poor women for money and prestige of increasing breastfeeding.

    • PJ

      Women are free to make their own choices about birth, but don’t you think they should have access to accurate information? Why not channel your anger at the NCB advocates who disseminate so much false and misleading information?

      • PJ

        Also, doesn’t it bother you that the United States (where I assume you are, since this blog is aimed at a US audience) allows sub-standard practitioners to deliver babies? No other developed country allows this. Why should women’s health be considered less important than medical issues that affect men? That certainly gets ME angry and god knows there have been more than enough needless tragedies resulting from it.

    • Captain Obvious

      Women who are pro choice may have an abortion for a child they do not want.
      Women who are homebirthers want to birth at home for a child that they do want. Unfortunately, several statistics (from Oregon, Colorado, Missouri, CDC, the Netherlands, etc) show 3-7x the neonatal death rate compared to similar and even high risk cohorts who deliver in the hospital.
      If you would allow your friends to drive drunk or jump off a roof without warning them, then your logic prevails. If you think you might warn your friends about those inherent dangers, then that is what Dr Amy is doing.
      I have to ask, how old are you? Your comments here and on another one of Dr Amy’s threads are quite poorly thought out. Just highly reactive defensive comments that don’t prove your point.

    • Happy Sheep

      Mind changed here too. I also have sharpened my reasoning skills and learned a lot about obstetrics and medicine.

  • Isramommy

    Also OT: the polio situation in Israel has gotten bad enough that the Health Ministry has begun a massive campaign to vaccinate every child in the country under the age of 9 with the oral live polio vaccine. As I understand it from the news media, this is because since 2004 the country has used the inactive injected ipv polio vaccine (because there was no actual polio in the country) which prevents illness but allows a person to transmit the virus as a carrier.

    Apparently polio is now spreading throughout the country due to immune carriers. Clearly if this continues it’s only a matter of time before someone gets sick with polio.

    And of course there are parents going nuts about the program even though the opv (I’m told) has no risks in this scenario since it is only being given to kids who are already vaccinated with at least two doses of the ipv. Here’s an English link giving a decent overview, if anyone’s interested.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4419024,00.html

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      The injected polio vaccine is a killed virus and the oral polio vaccine is a live attenuated vaccine. The oral polio vaccine carries a risk that 1 in 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 will mutate back to the original pathogenic form which usually does not make the person who was vaccinated sick, but they can spread it to susceptible people they come into contact with or through shed viral particles. The oral polio vaccine is needed during an outbreak because the immune response leads to the production of IgA antibodies. Since polio is an intestinal infection IgA antibodies are the best antibodies to have against polio. The killed virus vaccine creates IgG antibodies which are good enough to prevent infection when there are no endemic cases of polio and the vaccine carries no risk of mutation like the attenuated vaccine. From the article the Israeli government is just trying to be proactive to protect their population from an outbreak.

  • Dr Kitty

    Completely OT
    http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f4165

    I’m hoping this article will lead to better, safer care for women in the UK opting for terminations because of foetal abnormality.

  • Ducky

    Man, #4 really does read like satire… I’m thinking neonatal cranial-sacral therapy is a rich Southern Californian thing?

    • Certified Hamster Midwife

      One of my local homebirth midwives (a CNM) also does cranial-sacral therapy, but unknown whether she does it for newborns.

      • PrecipMom

        She does.

        • Certified Hamster Midwife

          I should have known.

    • Mishi

      It’s nice to know that my 3 vaginal deliveries were actually either operative deliveries or caesereans because that’s what happens in a traditional hospital environment. /sarcasm

      Persistant Occiput Posterior Position for all three, nuchal cord x 2, meconium staining x 2, mild cervical lip x 2, Pitocin augmentation x 2, stuck head with shoulder dystocia with the last. Guess we weren’t welcoming enough!

      Or, you know, maybe it was because my pelvis is an odd shape which contributed to complications. *shrugs* I guess it must have been my diet and lack of chiropractic adjustment.

      • Jocelyn

        Oh, definitely because you weren’t welcoming enough. You should have had more positive thoughts, mama! Next time truly embrace your child’s entrance to the world. Love & light!

        (Also, I think more and more of my comments are being influenced by the Sanctimommy facebook page. That place is awesome.)

        • Mishi

          Damn! I had a feeling that requesting an amniotomy, being lucid and quietly discussing the labour with the CNMs, along with a frustrated yell of “F**king hell kid! Just come out already, we want to meet you!” wasn’t very welcoming, but I didn’t realise it would cause such an issue. However will we bond?!

    • Sue

      This is a big thingy for chiros – ‘cos vaginal birth seems to be so poorly designed and traumatic that newborns need ”adjustment”…

    • PollyPocket

      I’ve seen it pushed for plagiocephaly and even craniosynostosis, which is occurring at disproportionately high rates where I live and practice.

    • Susan

      I had to read it for awhile before I decided it wasn’t satire.

  • KarenJJ

    http://www.watoday.com.au/comment/no-right-or-wrong-way-to-give-birth-20130816-2s202.html

    Nice article, finally talking of the pressure of NCB and justifying of women’s choices and medical care in childbirth. Interesting to see Hannah Dahlen quoted on the PND information when she is a big proponent of NCB.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Oh the comments on that article … why do I read them?

      • KarenJJ

        I just read a few.. Yuck… Apparently the author is in denial and just needs a loving vaginal birth to feel better.

    • Captain Obvious

      Wow! “The comment about formula has been proven completely incorrect, according to innumerable research. Formula is an inferior substitute to breastmilk and should only be used as a medical intervention, not a choice. It is like choosing renal dialysis because going to the toilet is inconvenient.”

      • Jennifer2

        What the ever loving fuck? How does that analogy even work in a person’s mind? Formula is to breastfeeding as dialysis is to peeing? You can’t even do dialysis if your kidneys function normally. You will pee yourself multiple times between dialysis appointments and then have nothing to filter out. Sorry. This is a really soft spot for me right now. But why do idiots make asinine comments about stuff the don’t understand. At worst, formula use might be like, I don’t know, rhinoplasty? Most people probably don’t *need* one. Some do, though. Some people want one. There are risks but most are minimal. So while those who neither need nor want one might question why you would want to have a completely elective nose job, it’s really up to the individual. Do some people choose to get a nose job for “the wrong reasons?” Sure. But that’s their prerogative. Rail against the beauty norms that make women want to change all their “imperfections” but don’t act disgusted like a person shouldn’t even have that choice.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          It’s not meant to be an analogy. It’s meant to be an insult.

          • Jennifer2

            Oh no, I’m aware of that. But at least make your insults make sense, people!

          • I sing to Andy

            Ugh, it works. I had some bad PPD and first and crap like that made me sick.

  • Sue

    I LOVE that VBAC doll!

    Can’t you just imagine a toddler asking “Why force it out through THERE when you can just open the zipper”?!

    • rh1985

      When I was a young child, before I learned about how childbirth and pregnancy worked, I always assumed a baby must have some way to open up the abdomen and come out, like an invisible zipper… but who knows, maybe parents who would buy that doll explain birth at 2-4 years old…

      • auntbea

        My mother explained childbirth to me when I was three, because I asked. I was terrified, and remained that way until a few minutes after my baby was born.

      • amazonmom

        I think the doll would be a great tool for a Child Life specialist explaining birth to kids. We could use a doll like that at work for the antepartum unit to explain what’s happening to Mommy to older sibs.

      • Mac Sherbert

        I wouldn’t buy the doll, but the zipper idea is kind of nice. My 4 year old wanted to know how the baby was going to get of mommy’s tummy.

        I told him mommy’s have a special hole the opens up and stretches like a rubber band, but sometimes babies can’t find the hole the doctors have to make hole and help the baby. I added they give the mommies lots of medicine, so they don’t feel anything.

        He was breech baby. He loves it when I tell him was too busy being a future superhero fighting bad guys and the Doctor had to help find the way out. It’s still pretty typical of him to get into a situation and need help getting out of it!

  • anonymous

    Wow so their ob is Stewart Fischbein? I guess mom will be getting done interesting calls from him soon. Is his suspension up yet?

  • Isramommy

    Is anyone else confused by the homebirth father’s kippah (yamulka)? I guess I am just intrigued that the father wears a kipah yet makes no other mention of his own apparent cultural traditions surrounding birth, but at the same time appropriates random traditions (Yoga belly wraps?) from other cultures.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      I think the guy in the kippah is the chiropractor, not the father. If you google “James Colquhoun,” the father and author, he doesn’t look anything like the guy in the picture.

      • Isramommy

        Right. I was confused. That makes sense. I thought the chiropractor was the guy manipulating that baby, but I forgot that they had a chiropractor **and** a cranio-sacral person.

        I still think all the random cultural appropriations and ritual seeking associated with homebirth is strange and maybe offensive for the people(s) whose cultures are being (probably inaccurately) borrowed from.

        • Sue

          Interesting how many chiros do newborn adjustments for the huge incidence of ”birth trauma” – and yet promote ”natural” birth…

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Perfectly understandable mistake.

          I hope that for the their next birth story, he includes a helpful “cast of characters” list at the beginning.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      I thought that was the chiropractor or whatever.

  • Sara

    I spent about an hour today talking with my sisters friend who is a doula. If anyone knew what doulas and home birth midwives really think of them, they’d never do it. I was shocked.
    Bottom line: they (midwife and doula) would rather die than transfer you to the hospital and they make all of it about them. Example: a baby needed 45 minutes of CPR and the doula thought it was a sign to her about something completely unrelated to the birth.
    And yes, the only answer they have when babies die is – well that’s life! And this doula has seen two dead babies in the past year due to meconium aspiration.

    These people suck hard. Dear God, if anyone out there is thinking of home birth, don’t bet your babies life for a good experience.

    I have no agenda, I just hate knowing this and not passing on the warning.

    • amazonmom

      Two needless deaths due to Mec aspiration. If those babies had been born inside a hospital they might have had a chance. They may not have aspirated with proper care. If these people were killing babies after the birth they would be considered murderers. Why they get away with killing babies during birth I don’t know.

      • Older Mom

        I am surprised to hear women talk about how there was mec staining and the *hospital* still let them proceed with a vaginal birth. Unless the baby’s birth is imminent, isn’t mec staining an automatic trip to the OR? That’s what our hospital midwife (CNM) told us, and it makes sense.

        • amazonmom

          If the strip looks good we proceed with vaginal delivery where I work. Two neonatal team members will attend the delivery, one who can intubate being required. If the baby comes out vigorous with no signs of distress we observe for a few minutes and leave. Non vigorous babies will be intubated for tracheal suctioning. If the baby has mec below the cords or requires more than the initial steps of NRP that’s at least an observation in NICU or an immediate admit. If at any time the OB feels c/s is a better choice the neo team will go to the OR and do the same things there.

        • CanDoc

          No. Meconium is an indication for continuous monitoring and an extra attendant at delivery skilled in suctioning out the trachea, but by itself is NOT an indication for immediate delivery.
          As for the two-deaths doula – unbelievable. I’ve delivered 200-300 babies PER YEAR for the LAST 10+ YEARS AND I HAVE NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE EVER lost a baby due to meconium aspiration. That doesn’t mean that it will never happen, because statistically it probably will, sometime, but 2000+ deliveries in and it hasn’t happened yet. It doesn’t mean that I’m an outstanding OB. It means that I practice per all the usual, safe, standard guidelines and practices of my profession.
          As an aside, Meconium aspiration occurs when an oxygen-deprived fetus begins gasping inside the uterus, sucking particulate meconium into the lungs. It’s a terminal, very-sick-baby event. Which is the reason for continuous monitoring in the case of meconium.

          • Older Mom

            I wonder if, in my case (patient, I’m not a doc) it had to do with my labor being so long and my dilation so slow and my water being broke for awhile…I think their attitude was if ANYTHING was even SLIGHTLY amiss, they were giving up on the vaginal birth. In addition, CNM that delivered my baby offered a c-section multiple times as an option even if there were no problems. To this day, I have regretted not taking her up on the offer.

        • Jocelyn

          My water had light meconium staining when they broke in the hospital halfway through my labor with my daughter. They did an amnioinfusion, put me on pitocin to speed up my labor, and inserted a monitor to attach to her in the uterus to more closely monitor her heart/vitals. When it came time for her to be born, they had a respiratory specialist in the room to make sure she had not aspirated any meconium. She was fine and hadn’t breathed any in, and all was well!

    • Anj Fabian

      45 minutes of CPR – completely unrelated to birth?

      I can feel her cognitive dissonance circuits overheating.

  • amazonmom

    Your completely moronic birth story should be the norm? Oh god I hope that never becomes the case. It seems like the point of birth for the junkies is to take as many risks as possible to get the “look what I got away with” award.

    So Dr Google and Dr Bing can teach you how to handle every childbirth complication. So those OB interns and residents that worked 100 hours plus a week for years at my first job should really have just read some pages on the Internet and eaten Cheetos instead of medical school… Oh wait a minute you still plan on calling the ambulance if stuff goes wrong. So the evil OB/NICU staff can get blamed when it’s really YOU taking stupid risks that killed your baby and/or yourself. It would probably give that mom a heart attack to hear that when a resident completed their first C/S as lead surgeon they would get a round of applause from the medical and nursing staff as they entered the break room after it was over. Maybe we were celebrating their new ability to save a life? Nah we must have been celebrating their ability to spread fear and oppression for the fun of it.

    • GiddyUpGo123

      I hope those are organic, all-natural Cheetos.

      • amazonmom

        I thought about that after I posted hehe. I think they should have sat around and eaten the special from Ben’s Chili Bowl instead since we were in DC after all!

    • Certified Hamster Midwife

      “YEAH DOCTOR! WAY TO PERFORM UNNECESSARY SURGERY IN ORDER TO BOOST YOUR INSURANCE BILLING!”

      • Mac Sherbert

        I’m not even sure why they all believe the OB’s get paid more for c-sections. When I asked my insurance company what I was going to owe my doctor for my last baby they told it was same amount regardless of the method of delivery.

        • Certified Hamster Midwife

          If they’re an attending, my understanding is they get paid the same no matter what they do, and if there’s no deliveries at all.

  • Jessica Nye

    How the hell does the placenta continue to pump blood through the cord AFTER IT’S OUT OF THE UTERUS?! Do these people think the placenta has its own heart?

    • Phascogale

      Last few cords I’ve felt had stopped pulsing after a minute or two so not sure about this 3 hours business! Also the blood starts to clot pretty soon and as it congeals it really doesn’t go anywhere after that point.

    • Jocelyn

      Of course it has its own heart – it’s full of love, after all! Every part of the motherbabyplacenta is full of love and hearts and sunshine.

  • Older Mom

    Not at all disagreeing with the crazy, but I do have to say that my toddler is very interested in understanding how he got out. And when I was pregnant (lost it), he was very interested in knowing how the baby would come out. No idea where the interest comes from, other than that I’ve told him that *he* used to live inside me, which raised the question (for him) of how he got out. Ditto for knowing there was (past tense) a baby living inside me.

    A doll strikes me as not an awful idea, because he wants to see the “baby hole” he came out of, and although we’re pretty liberal about within-the-family nudity, that is a bit of show-and-tell I’m not in the mood to play.

    I do like that there is a zipper to show how a C-section would work, because if there ever is a #2 for me, we’d plan to have him or her removed through the “tummy zipper”!

    • GiddyUpGo123

      Actually I was quite thrilled to be able to tell my daughter that the doctor was going to cut open my belly to take the baby out because I really didn’t want to have to go into that whole “baby hole” conversation.

      • Older Mom

        OMG…tell me about it! I’d be all for showing the scar, even letting him touch it if he wanted. Someone should advise pregnant ladies about this as a “pro” for C-sections!

        • Haelmoon

          My oldest was a C-section. Then to VBACs (preterm, not entirely planned that way). My oldest tells the younger two that she is smarter and they are smelly because she avoided the hole close to the “poopy” hole.

      • Jennifer2

        As someone who was born by c-section, thinking back on it, I am so glad my mom never had to tell me about the “baby hole.” I mean, I learned to read at a young age and we still had all the baby care books around since I had a little brother, so I figured it out (also had the best diapered/swaddled baby dolls EVER!). And I’m not generally grossed out by birth. But in my specific case, and involving my mom’s “baby hole” I’m rather glad that I made my exit through the “tummy zipper” instead.

        • Spiderpigmom

          I was also born by C-section, and my mother also didn’t feel the need to tell me it wasn’t the most common outcome, but I had the opposite feeling: I felt incredibly stupid when I figured out that *all* babies are not born this way, and I resented my mother a little for not telling me.

          • Lizzie Dee

            Just out of idle curiosity, how old were you when you figured it out, and why did you feel stupid?

            I am very aware that I am a bit of an oddity here, as I long ago left that idealistic place where we believe that every action of ours is of enormous significance to our children, and have no idea of just how complicated things get when children are old enough to judge and come under other influences. I think it might be quite instructive to reflect on the wide range most of us can conjure up that cause us to resent our mothers – even if only a little – and accept that our children will feel much the same about us in their turn, no matter how hard we agonise.

    • amazonmom

      My daughter laughed at the idea she was cut out of Mommy. At my last OB appointment she asked the doctor to tell her how to cut people open to get babies out.

      • auntbea

        If I were your doctor that would have made my day,

      • Dr Kitty

        My kid worked out recently that since cats don’t have C sections, it means that there must be an alternative way for humans to deliver babies. Up to now, her favourite bit about her birth story has always been “and then uncle Ganesh made sure mummy couldn’t feel anything by poking ger with a pin, and then the doctor cut her open with a sharp knife”.

        I’ve had to find polite ways to decline showing my daughter the alternative exit option!

      • amazonmom

        I neglected to tell you my OB said for my daughter to do well in class and go to medical school when she grew up. Then she would be allowed to deliver babies 😉

    • Sue

      Actually, the tummy zipper seems much more rational to explain than ”your mother has this tiny hidden passageway that has to stretch and STRETCH and S-T-R-E-T-C-H (and sometimes TEAR) while you get slowly pushed out, head first.”

      Imagine your toddler figuring that one out!

      ”Then, but doesn’t that HURT?”

      ”Yes, darling, very much.”

      • AmyP

        For years, ever since she learned that having babies hurts, my 11-year-old daughter has been telling me that she isn’t going to have any. (I’m quite happy with that for the moment–no rush, honey.) However, my 11-year-old likes babies (she adores her 10-month-old sister) and she has been lobbying her younger brother for years to get married and have kids.

    • KarenJJ

      Mine could see the photos if they want. They’re not too gross actually. The nursing staff asked if we had a camera for photos as we were going into the operating theatre – we pulled a face (pretty queasy about these things) and one of them grabbed the camera for us. I wasn’t sure about the idea but love having some photos now. Not that many people have seen them, but it was a happy occasion and has helped with explanations.

  • Poogles

    Since I am a former believer in UC, I went ahead and posted a comment on the “FAQ” post. I’ll repost here, in case it gets deleted there:

    (From the post):”The bottom line, and the advice I’d give ANYONE who is considering an unassisted home birth, is that you can not stop learning and educating yourself. Read home birth stories, watch home birth videos on youtube, research the complications that can occur.”

    (My response): Interestingly, it was the reading and searching I did that changed my mind about unassisted birth. I had decided that a UC with no interventions was the safest way to have a baby, until I started coming across stories of moms who had done everything “right” (no interventions, no fear, very healthy, very well-read on birth and complications, and fully prepared) and still ran into fatal or damaging complications at home, that could not be remedied by a quick dash to the hospital. The profound grief and heartbreak of those families that have lost their babies from lack of quick access to medical assistance is permanently burned onto my heart and mind.

    So, the more I read others homebirth/unassisted birth stories and the more I read into the risks of complications and the possible outcomes for those complications, the more I realized that I feel much safer already being in a place that can immediately react to a dangerous time-sensitive complication (like shoulder dystocia or cord prolapse) than to have to hope I can make it there fast enough should said complication arise. When minutes equal brain cells lost, and 10 minutes from the hospital might mean the difference between a live baby and a dead one, it just no longer made sense to me to take those sorts of chances.

    When it is time for me to have a baby, it will be in a hospital with 24 hour anesthesia (in case of emergency CS) and an onsite NICU. I want the absolute best chance of having a live, healthy baby, even if it means I end up having a less-than-ideal experience. In fact, I would even put up with a traumatic experience if it means my baby would have less risk of injury or death.

  • Sullivan ThePoop

    Is the guy telling the unusual birth story a liar or does he really believe that crap? My SIL’s OB told her that she could have her twins vaginally as long as they were both head down. He also told her that usually he would deliver them vaginally no matter the position of the second, but in her case the second one out would be the one that was 17% larger due to their gestational age so he could not. Well, the second one was breech. After she had the babies he told her she could VBAC no problem as long as it was a singlet and if it was twins they would talk about it. Only two doctors in the country my ass.

  • yentavegan

    You know, birth is soooo natural that if you have the money, a chiropractor and cranio sacral therapist are still needed to workout the kinks, because all standard medical care is not natural.

  • attitude devant

    Their minds and bodies had to be ready before they could conceive? Um wut? Someone better not tell my teen patients that one. Umm, idiot, it looks like you guys conceived on the second or third cycle. That’s pretty average. Fools.

    • Bethany Barry

      My body is comprised of at least 70% Dorito dust, and I conceived first cycle twice. When you Try To Conceive, it’s best to Trust The Cool ranch.

    • EB151

      Ooooo … the body really does have a way to shut that whole thing down! Congressman Akin was right!

  • theNormalDistribution

    Vernix is a protective coating now?

    • Mel

      Yeah. I always thought it was waterproofing which would be unnecessary after the baby was born. Oh, wait. It still is.

    • Older Mom

      OK, I’m totally strange…I loved the feel and smell of vernix. I don’t think it’s magic or protective post-partum. Just smelled good (to me) and felt so soft when rubbed into baby’s skin.

      • amazonmom

        I prefer not to go to deliveries because I can’t stand the smell and sight of vernix. The idea of being forced to hold a vernixy bloody baby against my chest makes me want a C/S just to avoid being covered in vernix. I think I’m the weird one here though!

      • Spiderpigmom

        Same for me. I felt sad when the nurse took my son away to clean him (not that I objected or anything, I just really liked the smell and feel of vernix),

    • Lena

      I forget where, but I once read a homebirth story where the midwife rubbed some vernix on her hands and undereye area. Apparently, that stuff works miracles on wrinkles, dontcha know?

      Gah, I’m still shuddering in revulsion remembering that story. I’d think it was weird to do if it with your own baby, but okay, whatever, that’s your own biohazard, knock yourself out. But someone else’s?

  • Mel

    I’m quite educated myself – BS in Biology; teaching certificate; working on MS in Biology. I know a lot about what can go wrong during labor and delivery. Seen a lot of things go wrong on cows.

    It would never occur to me that watching a bunch of YouTube videos would adequately prepare me for dealing with a shoulder dystocia – of either a cow or a person let alone myself.

    Do the videos show what to do from the laboring mom’s perspective?
    *Tries to imagine what that would look like* Probably not….

    • Jennifer2

      I’ve been reading Runner’s World and Running Times for over a year. I have even run a couple of 5Ks (slowly, but I did it). I know lots of people who are runners and have run half or full marathons. I know all about possible injuries, but I just believe none of those will happen to me. So I’m going to do it. I’m going to run a marathon. My goal time is 3:30, but I will be okay under 4:00. I just can’t imagine how boring it would be to run for more than 4 hours!!! I am going to start training this weekend because the race is in 10 weeks. I would say “wish me luck” but I don’t need luck. I have confidence that I will succeed.

  • Ardea

    They didn´t wash their baby for week and aspire to month?! WHAT?!

    • rh1985

      eeeeeeeew

    • Mel

      That’s…..wow….um……

      You know what most mammals do after the baby is born? Lick them clean.

      Go for it, mom! Or maybe she should wait until she runs out of placenta placebo pills.

      • Ardea

        I can´t imagine going ONE, ONE freakin´day without a shower. I don´t have kids, but as far as I am concerned they poop and pee A LOT. Isn´t not washing them child abuse?

        • Are you nuts

          But they’re covered in GOOD bacteria, dontcha know?

          • wookie130

            Let’s not forget the 8 bazillion meconium diapers newborns have in the first several days…nothing like leaving the little gippers covered in their own womb cheese, and then to add insult to injury, not washing up the residual tar-like nastiness from their tushes. Yum.

        • Amy H

          The dr’s tell you know that they don’t need to be washed with soap every day – it will dry their skin. My mom was scandalized…

          I couldn’t tell whether they were going to wash with water only (pure, mountain stream, ionized, low-sodium whatever, maybe) or if they really were just going to let it accumulate. That could be a good strategy for non-vaxxing parents to prevent their child catching some contagious disease.

    • auntbea

      If we lived dribbled milk on our baby for more than a few hours she got a rash.

    • Kalacirya

      Wow, that’s really bad.

  • ngozi

    Even though I like to labor and deliver with as few drugs as possible, and yes, go as natural as possible, I have to be real about my body and health and know that a homebirth sounds nice, but is not for me because of age and past health issues. Some people are not being honest about whether a homebirth is really good for them or not; they are just following a trend.

  • DL

    I’m going to need the 5-10 minutes I spent reading that last birth story back, please….or some brain bleach and a wire brush. Either will do.

  • R

    That last birth story made me literally laugh out loud. What in the world are these people thinking? Also, what was the final bill for all these “special” helpers for the delivery?
    And–just for the record–I’ve seen many, many posterior babies delivered in the hospital without an episiotomy. Not that actual facts matter to them, but if they were interested in real facts, that’s one they could consider.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Having a posterior baby increases your risks of operative vaginal delivery by some percentage and the risk of C-section by like 3%. So, yes that would point to the fact that a lot of posterior babies are born in hospitals without an operative delivery.

  • Zornorph

    As for that last story – why I am not surprised that the couple have a ‘meditation room’ in their domicile? But it’s textbook NCB – I don’t know why they think it’s so unusual.

    • Alenushka

      I am a practicing Budhist and I do not have a room for meditation. I think if one feels compelled to have one, perhaps one is missing a point.

      • Older Mom

        We have an itty-bitty altar with a couple of cushions in our itty-bitty guest room, which will someday be our son’s room, at which point the altar and cushions will go in our bedroom.. I guess if you have a room not currently in use, it could work.

  • R T

    OT but pertaining to this blog: I’m having a lot of trouble with the comments section. I can see all replies to my comment in my email, but when I try to reply some of them either aren’t there or it attempts to post my reply under a completely unrelated thread. Also, half the page is black and hard to read! I’m I doing something wrong or are other people experiencing this?

    • Amy H

      The page turns black after a certain point and that’s really frustrating. It’s been that way for weeks for me.

    • Poogles

      “I can see all replies to my comment in my email, but when I try to reply some of them either aren’t there or it attempts to post my reply under a completely unrelated thread.”

      If I follow the link directly to the comment I am attempting to reply to, I have the same issue. If I just go directly to the blog post and find the comment, then all the replies and comments will be there. No idea why Disqus does this.

      “half the page is black and hard to read!”

      This has been an issue for me for a few months now. I know Dr. Amy is aware of it, but no idea if it is able to be fixed.

    • Happy Sheep

      If you collapse the comments using the minus sign to the right of the first comment in each thread, it brings most text above the black.

      • Amy H

        Hmmm…that helps, although it’s a lot of work.

  • Dr Kitty

    Good for Ms Justice O’Malley, whose ruling was very clear that as a matter of law the HSE has a right to determine for itself what it feels are acceptable levels of risk, as determined by best clinical advice.

    Justice O’Malley was very clever not to get into the nitty gritty about the actual risk of rupture at HBAC, she didn’t say “0.5% is too high, but 0.3% might be OK”. What she said was, basically, that it doesn’t matter if YOU feel you are low risk, if the current medical evidence suggests you are high risk, the HSE is entitled to treat you as if you are high risk, because they are the ones providing the indemnity, so suck it up.

  • Lisa from NY

    Can a baby really turn mid-labor from posterior to anterior with a chiropractor?

    • Captain Obvious

      Desbriere R, Blanc J, Le Dû R, et al: Is maternal posturing during labor efficient in preventing persistent occiput posterior position? A randomized controlled trial
      Am J Obstet Gynecol 2013(Jan);208(1): 60.e1-8 [PMID 23107610]

      This paper estimates the rate of OP position in early stage labor is 30-40%, at 10 cm dilatation is 29-30%, and at delivery only 5-10%! So basically you can hold your hand above the moms belly and have a chance at saying you helped rotate the baby’s head to OA. Also, this paper should no benefit of hands/knees position, or side lying as helping to facilitate rotation from OP to OA better than observation. So this chiropractor better prove his efferts are better than just spontaneous rotation that would have happened anyway.

      • OBNurse

        Really? I’m surprised about hands and knees position not being helpful….that’s one of my tricks that sometimes works, but maybe it’s coincidence. You know what does help OP positions? Epidurals and syntocinon drips, letting the mother “labour down” for an hour or so after she gets to fully before we get her pushing. More often than not, this does the trick.

        • Captain Obvious

          “Moreover, no significant difference was observed between the intervention and control groups regarding the mode of delivery, duration of labor, use of oxytocin, induction of labor, use of epidural analgesia, cervical dilatation at epidural placement, duration of pushing, episiotomy, perineal tear, Apgar score, neonatal acidemic cord blood gas concentrations, or admission to neonatal intensive care unit
          In conclusion, our study failed to demonstrate any maternal or neonatal benefit to a policy of maternal posturing during labor for OP position. We believe that such posture should not be imposed on women having an OP position during labor and that epidural analgesia should not be delayed in nulliparous patients in labor as its placement timing has no effect on fetal head rotation or maternal and neonatal morbidities. As highlighted by Kariminia et al,25 identification of interventions currently used in practice that do not have a beneficial effect on outcome is important. Women who are advised to adopt postures during labor may feel a sense of failure or shame if they do not follow that advice and may also find their confidence in their caregiver diminished if fetal head failed to rotate despite properly following recommendations.”

        • Captain Obvious

          Apparently from this research, more often than not the head rotates no matter what you do.

      • Phascogale

        What it possibly does help is some of the back pain during labour. If you are semi recumbent on the bed then that babies back is pressing down more on your spine just due to gravity. If you are more upright ie sitting, leaning forward or on hands and knees then it stands to reason that there isn’t as much pressure. And mums will say that the back pain is slightly better in these positions than laying down. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t make all the pain go away.

        And sterile water injections!

    • ersmom

      What’s fun is in multips watching the mom push and the head literally spin 180 degrees during the push.

      Happens all of the time.

  • EB151

    Cranio-sacro wha–? Who messes with a healthy newborn’s spine? How is that in any way, shape or form not an intervention?

    • mollyb

      My lactation counselor actually sent us to one of these (covered by our insurance, to boot!). I had never heard of cranio-sacral therapy and assumed she was some type of physical therapist. She was actually very nice and supportive (although she didn’t actually seem to help at all, obviously) but once our pediatrician explained what cranio-scaral therapy is, we didn’t go back.

      • yentavegan

        This drives me to the edge of crazy! lactation consultants recommending CHARLATANS. CST is unsubstantiated. No scientific studies to back their claims. Infants do not need CST. EVER.

    • Allie P

      These “cranial sacral therapists” have actually KILLED children performing their insane voodoo “adjustments.” Do not let a choripractor touch your infant.

    • theNormalDistribution

      Well okay, it’s an intervention but it will help “dial in the baby’s spine and nervous system and bring him more into his body” so it’s totally necessary.

  • auntbea

    It WOULD be pretty awesome if we all came with an abdominal zipper. That would save a lot of trouble.

    • LibrarianSarah

      I always sort of wished that we were marsupials. Childbirth would be easier and I’d always have a place to warm my hands.

      • Antigonos CNM

        And I’d never lose my car keys Evolution, where are you when we need you?

    • Antigonos CNM

      That’s what my husband said when it became obvious I was going to have a repeat C/S [in total, I had three]

      • auntbea

        Not to mention, appendectomy? Zzzzzippp! Gall bladder problems? *zzzzzip!* Ate way too much? **zzziiiippp!”

        • Antigonos CNM

          Ate way too much? **zzziiiippp!”

          Plop, plop, fizz, fizz is more like it: there’s always Alka-Seltzer.

    • Mel

      I wish we had hard-shelled eggs. All you’d need for pregnancy is an incubator.

      • LibrarianSarah

        But then where would I put my hands?

        • Mel

          I do prefer the marsupial idea. You do get warmer hands plus you could watch the baby grow in real time.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It is obviously just as successful of a strategy as we have. Look at how there are marsupials to fill all the same nitches as the animals we have here.