No, “birth rape” is not for real

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I’ve been writing about this issue for years, but it has finally made it in to the mainstream. In a piece on Time.com, Bonnie Rochman asks Is “Birth Rape” for Real? The answer is a resounding NO!

What is “birth rape” supposed to mean? It doesn’t mean rape during birth, although that is indeed possible, and no doubt has actually occurred.

As Rochman tells us:

In a post on Salon.com by Tracy Clark-Flory, Reed explains the phenomenon: “Fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors … these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her.”

According to Amity Reed, the Al Sharpton of birth activists, birth rape is:

an instance during labor “when an instrument or hand is inserted into a woman’s vagina without permission, after which the woman feels violated.

Like Sharpton who cries “racism” regardless of the circumstances, Reed cries rape regardless of the circumstances. But the circumstances matter.

We have a word for medical care without permission and the word is “assault.” But childbirth activists abuse the word “rape,” and demean the experience of victims of actual rape, because they are desperate for attention. The promiscuous use of language, as when people abuse the term “lynching” or “racism” any other shocking term, is a sure-fire attention getter.

They’ve figured out that “I didn’t like the way the obstetrician treated me when he was trying to save my baby’s life” is not particularly compelling, since anyone who has ever suffered a serious medical problem knows that doctors give priority to saving lives in life threatening situations, rather than respecting emotional sensitivities. Let me be very clear about this point: I’m NOT saying that doctors are always right. Often more compassion could be shown without compromising life saving efforts in the least. But lack of compassion is not rape, either.

What is the actual definition of rape?

the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

The legal definition has been expanded to include other forms of sexual touching that do not involve intercourse. And while it is true that we have come to understand that rape is often more about power than sex, we limit the meaning of rape to sexual contact. We have a different word for non-sexual harm; that word is assault. This is a critical point. We don’t discount any form of abuse or harm, but we do insist on precision in describing and punishing it.

And we do not determine whether a crime has occurred by referencing the feelings of the victim. The feelings of the victim matter not at all; what matters are the “feelings” of the perpetrator. We a name for the perpetrator’s feelings: intent.

All crimes require more than a physical act. They require intent, legally known as mens rea or the guilty mind. Consider the crime of murder. A person run down by a driver who was texting is every bit as dead as a person run down by a professional hit man intending to cause the death. But only the latter case is murder, while the former is manslaughter at most. Intent is absolutely critical to determining whether a crime has been committed and what type of crime has been committed.

It does not matter how the victim feels about the crime (or in the case of murder, how the victim theoretically would feel about the crime). It does not matter that the relatives of the victim run down by a texting driver “feel like” the victim has been murdered, and that’s not because we discount their feelings. We are actually quite sympathetic to the anger and sense of loss of the victim’s relatives.

Let’s look again at “birth rape.” Rape requires sexual touching. A man can punch a woman and it is not rape. It might be assault, but it is not rape. Why? Because it is not sexual touching.

And it’s not merely a matter of the identity of the body part that has been touched. A woman can kick a man in the crotch, but that is not rape either. It might be assault, but it is not rape. Why? Because intent matters.

The victim’s feelings about the matter are irrelevant. The woman who was punched can “feel” like she was being raped, but that doesn’t make it so. A man who was kicked in the crotch might “feel” like he was being raped, but that doesn’t make it so.

And, as I mentioned above, a woman in labor can actually be raped. Do childbirth activists actually expect us to believe that a vaginal exam without consent is the equivalent of forced sexual intercourse during labor? I can’t imagine they do. And if they can tell the difference between the two scenarios, then they are aware that they are misusing the term rape.

“Birth rape” does not exist. It is a promiscuous abuse of the term rape for the sole purpose of garnering attention. The term is legally meaningless and ethically suspect. It is morally wrong to insist that a rape has occurred when nothing of the kind happened. It is ethically unjustified to misuse the term rape regardless of how worthy the motivation. And it is insupportable to base the accusation of a crime on how the victim “feels” about it.

  • sabelmouse

    the changes, published on Wednesday , have been made because women who give birth under midwife-led care have less chance of being asked to undergo medical interventions such as episiotomies, caesareans and use of forceps or ventouse.

    just like the weird, undocumented stuff i so often read/read.

    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/03/low-risk-pregnant-women-urged-avoid-hospital-births

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      I’m sure this has absolutely nothing to do with the NHS’s need to cut costs.

      • Karen in SC

        yes, because only the low risk women will be having homebirth. IIRC, first time mothers are not allowed to homebirth. Many need help with the first baby and subsequent babies are easier.

        Not to mention NO effective pain relief!

        The results of not having easy access to c-sections, forceps and ventouse are sometimes not readily apparent. I wanted my kids to have all their brain cells.

      • sabelmouse

        of course it comes into it just like usa hospitals/medical system are trying to get as much money as possible.
        last summer i poked myself in the eye with a twig while gardening. it was the weekend and i wondered about going to casualty but searched the internet first.
        all the american sites told me to seek medical help immediately, only the nhs counselled patience and waiting a little.
        you might say they didn’t want to waste money on people over unnecessary visits but you might also say they don’t invite unnecessary visits because of greed.
        i went with their advice, gave my eye rest with a homemade patch, and was ok the next day.
        really, it’s a minefield that needs clear thinking and as much info as possible.

    • Dr Kitty

      But their babies are more likely to die, so it prioritises process over outcome.
      It also takes for granted that Epidurals are unnecessary, negative interventions, rather than wanted, necessary analgesia.
      Women cannot access Epidurals at home or in a birth centre.
      NICE thinks of this as a pro, many women see it as a con.
      NICE, bless them, aren’t always right, and sometimes the authors of guidelines have agendas.

      In the area where I work there is a birth centre which has a 20 minute transfer time to the nearest maternity hospital. It was supposed to deliver 1000 babies a year. Women, however, voted with their feet and the unit delivers only a fraction of that number.
      A large suit against the Trust, that was successfully defended on the basis that with such a long transfer time a serious birth injury or death was “inevitable” if something went wrong, didn’t make the unit more popular either, once the verdict was made public.

      NCB prioritise “normal birth” over safety. Very few families do.

  • sabelmouse

    rape is about power, not sex, using your power during birth, against the will of the birther, is therefore rape! it makes perfect sense to me.

    • yugaya

      ” using your power during birth, against the will of the birther, is therefore rape!”

      You mean like when a doula or a lay midwife ignore “the will of the birther” and requests for legit pain relief or transfer and use their power of ignorance to offer rum or lie about the progress of labour?

      You mean like when a lay CPM midwife uses her power of manipulation to convince a mother that the test result showing her baby is imminent danger is nothing to worry about and kills a baby?

      No, that is not rape, and neither is a medical assault.

      • sabelmouse

        those would apply as well.

    • Stacy48918

      Yes but what CPMs/NCBers define as birth rape the rest of the world calls standard obstetric interventions for the well-being of the mother and baby.

      • sabelmouse

        if it’s needed it’s ok unless of course the need has been created by malpractice in the first place.

        • Bombshellrisa

          A need created by malpractice? What does that mean?

          • Stacy48918

            A “pit to distress” C-section I would guess.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Oh yes, I forgot, because they “want more money”. Good grief, if malpractice insurance creates a need which in the end is a very safe way for a baby to be born, what kind of need does an unlicensed midwife with no malpractice insurance create?

          • sabelmouse

            created by doing things or omitting things that would have led to a problem free birth.

          • Stacy48918

            Such as? Can you provide us with a single example of something done or omitted that would have “led to a problem free birth”? A SINGLE example, accompanied with a peer-reviewed publication indicating that doing or omitting said procedure increased the risk of complications in labor.

            Just ONE.

          • sabelmouse

            see, that’s why i didn’t bother with that other reply. search yourself but i doubt you want to know, really.

          • Stacy48918

            Actually I really do. Not a single person that has parachuted in to this website claiming to know which interventions are needed has been able to provide us with a SINGLE evidence based example.

            I was hoping you’d be the first.

            Just ONE. You know which are needed and which are malpractice. Where did you get this knowledge? That’s all I’m asking for. You learned it somewhere. Share it here.

          • Who?

            And here you are again being a lovely example of your kind of vicious nonsense. You know all this stuff, but are what-too superior to share? Or do you fear that it will be systematically pulled apart by people who have spent years training and seen more pregnant women and deliveries than you can imagine, which would force you to perhaps wonder about your beliefs?

            Just one example-you could be a ground breaker-no one has managed to do it yet.

            Much easier to sit in the echo chamber.

          • sabelmouse

            i haven’t the energy or will to reply to none to pleasant people who demand proof of things that can easily be found and that they want to rip apart because they don’t actually want to hear anything different to their opinion.
            i certainly don’t respond well to demands in that tone.

          • Bombshellrisa

            But that is looking at the wrong end. Having a baby positioned OP or breech has nothing to do with what is done for prenatal care or during labor. Having gestational diabetes or preeclampsia is also not something you invoke, you either have it or you don’t. Some women will need Pitocin to dilate and others will never be able to dilate even with it. Interventions are there to help the end result-healthy baby and healthy mother-possible.

          • sabelmouse

            not things i’m talking .

          • Bombshellrisa

            I mentioned situations where women might have to be monitored and treated more and where labor and birth could have complications. What did you mean?

          • sabelmouse

            i mean situations where superfluous interventions as well as stress through rushing the birther creates the need for intervention.

          • Bombshellrisa

            There is no need to rush if there is no indication, but there are indicators that might seem like nothing to a layperson and mean very much to a medical professional who is caring for a pregnant or laboring woman.
            Superfluous interventions are usually things like herbal remedies, because they do nothing yet they are being relied on to produce a result that doesn’t come, delaying real medical help.

          • Stacy48918

            Still asking – please provide us with ONE example of a “superfluous intervention” causing a negative outcome, with literature documentation.

            Why is this so hard? You are parroting the same lines…but can’t seem to actually provide something substantial for us.

            Guess we should just read more.

          • Samantha06

            “i mean situations where superfluous interventions as well as stress through rushing the birther creates the need for intervention”.

            Asking again: Please state SPECIFICALLY what you mean by this statement and provide clear examples to back it up.

          • AlisonCummins

            I don’t understand. If you know they exist, *how* do you know? If it’s one of those “oh, everybody knows that” things that are just unquestioned in certain social circles (like ghosts, or homeopathy, or crocodiles in the sewer system) then where is “everybody” getting their information from?

            If it’s supported by good data, then you can be assured that the people who’ve been studying the data for decades as if lives depend on it — because they do — know it too. Whatever it is.

            If it’s supported by data, then the data exist and we can all look at it.

            If the data do not exist even though “everybody knows” it, there’s no reason to believe that what “everybody knows” is factually true. Maybe “everybody” ismwrong.

          • sabelmouse

            i’m sure the data exists and you can look it up if you want. i’m not hiding it.
            but between all of us we’re getting a nice comment count, are we not?

          • AlisonCummins

            You are talking to professionals here. Doctors, obstetricians, anesthesiologists, NICU nurses, academic statisticians and nurse-midwives. They know the literature very well. They do not know the data you are referring to.

            It might be interesting for you to go back and question your sources. They have told you X is true but how do they know? Do they really know? A lot of people believing and saying something untrue doesn’t make it any truer. If they do know, then they have a data source that the professionals here are unaware of and would like to know about. Saying “look it up” is unhelpful because they have looked it up, many times, and they haven’t found it.

          • sabelmouse

            how do you know who everybody is, is there a club?
            it would explain why they might feel threatened though and wouldn’t want to know different.

          • AlisonCummins

            There is no club. I’ve just been reading for a while. Dr Kitty, for instance, is a doctor.

            They honestly don’t feel threatened. Professionals are constantly updating their knowledge based on new information. If you have access to information they don’t, they would be genuinely thrilled. Really.

            It’s more likely that the data you have always assumed exist, don’t. That should make you think and question. But if the data is there, you can share it and they’ll be happy.

          • sabelmouse

            ”Professionals are constantly updating their knowledge based on new information.’

            not actually an impression i’ve got from most doctors. but doc kitty is a cute name.
            how we’re doing for comment count?

          • Dr Kitty

            Let’s see
            I read the BMJ cover to cover weekly, RCGP Journal monthly, weekly educational meetings in practice, monthly education meetings out of practice, online and e-learning at least twice a month.

            I have an annual appraisal in which I have to prove a minimum of 50 hrs of continuing professional development, with proof of how my practice has changed as a result of new knowledge.

            Your impression is wrong.
            But hey, you don’t seem to understand much about obstetrics or medicine generally, and believe ER is some sort of authoritative source on medico-legal issues, so I’m not exactly shocked.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            not actually an impression i’ve got from most doctors.

            That’s a reflection of your ignorance, nothing else.

          • Dr Kitty

            Sabelmouse, why don’t you come and join us in the comments on today’s post?

            Once your comments drop off the most recent comments bar, no one is going to want to search through 1000 comments on a year old post to talk to you.

            Dr T really has a very open comments policy, we can talk about whatever you want, but maybe we can do it under today’s post and not by making an old comment thread even more unwieldy?

            If you want to engage us and inform us, then that’s probably the best way to do it.

          • sabelmouse

            WHAT are you?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            how do you know who everybody is, is there a club?

            The same way when you go hang out at the local bar a lot you get to know the people there by what they say.

            Just like we know a lot about you by what you say. For example, we know you are pretty ignorant of midwifery in the US because you don’t know basic facts about it.

            And threatened? How can anybody be threatened? You haven’t actually said anything with any substance. Vague claims about unnecessary procedures don’t get far, when you are talking to people who are actually doctors.

            On the whole, I think they are being very generous in giving you the opportunity to support your claim instead of calling you a clueless moron and laughing you off.

          • Bombshellrisa

            “calling you a clueless moron and laughing you off.” Well, not posting it at least. It would be nice if JUST ONCE, someone came here with the actual evidence that convinced them of their stance. Not “someone said” or posting a link to some nutty layperson’s website that has no data either and is shilling some herbs and woo. Actual data that made them believe that home birth, alternative medicine or whatever is safe and effective. Even posting a link to the MANA study would be enough for me. But not even that happens.

          • LibrarianSarah

            You are quite found of shifting the burden of proof I see. However, try as you might, the burden of proof is still on you. You know why? Because you are the one making claims and it is up to you to prove them. Telling other people to look up the information to prove you claims for you is just lazy. Stop being lazy.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Unless it is because we do “know different” and have seen plenty of women whose midwives dump them at the emergency room when their home birth starts going badly, after “not rushing” birth and wanting comfort instead of safety.

          • Samantha06

            Like what?

        • Samantha06

          So, let’s say a woman is laboring at home with her CPM. She’s been pushing for 6 hours and no progress is being made. She asks to go to the hospital. On arrival, the team finds the baby’s heart beat is dropping with each contraction. The Obstetrician examines her, (with full informed consent, of course!) and finds the babys’ head still high in the pelvis and the swelling on the baby’s head. What is your assessment of this situation and what are the needed interventions?

          • sabelmouse

            why are you asking me?i’m not a midwife and would hope that any midwife would have had this figured out.
            that’s why i had competent, experienced midwives for my birth and to my joy in the netherlands they have their own full practices, full status [no bowing to docs] and do all pre and post natal work and if moving to hospital is needed they come with and continue there unless the birther wants someone else.
            i was ecstatically happy with my 3 midwife practise , more so than with my experience in germany where i was forced to see a gyno for the pre natal checkups as midwives are only allowed to do homebirth with a doc on standby.
            only 1 in the whole town was willing, nice enough guy but no bedside manner, no communication skills, and an obsession with machinery. so those visits were torture.
            whereas in a’da they were actually a pleasure and nobody went inside my body until the very last day when my dd was 9 days overdue and the midwife twiddled my cervix [with my consent of course] to check and get things going. hospitalisation was thus avoided.

          • KarenJJ

            “i’m not a midwife and would hope that any midwife would have had this figured out. ”

            You’d hope that would be the case, but sadly in the US midwives aren’t all held to the standards of those in the Netherlands and struggle with the basics of midwifery and caring for mothers and infants.

          • sabelmouse

            but why is that?

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Good question. Free market? Libertarian tendencies? Caveat imperator?(sp?) More areas where people are 1 hour+ from a hospital? A relatively late start in real medicine?

          • Stacy48918

            Because the Midwives Alliance of North America and member midwives actively campaign AGAINST any and all restrictions to their practice. Any single admonition to test mothers for risk factors, risk out mothers, provide dedicated back-up, have malpractice insurance, report on case outcomes – ANYTHING. MANA has campaigned against it.

            Prior to 2012 homebirth midwives in the United States were not even required to have a high school diploma. Still, there is not a single college level course that a midwife is required to take prior to attending births. In most places they can see a mere 25-50 births and then practice independently.

            Which is why homebirth in the United States is 3-8 times more likely to result in a dead baby than is comparable risk hospital birth. Uneducated midwives.

          • sabelmouse

            strange!

          • Stacy48918

            Why are we asking you? Because you posted and stated that there are some procedures in labor that are needed and some that are created out of “malpractice”. We would simply like a little more information about that.

          • yugaya

            “, no communication skills”

            Did you communicate with that doctor who had ” no communication skills ” in his mother tongue/first language or yours? If he was communicating in a foreign language, was his language training adequate for communicating professionally with native speakers of that language, or was he merely to a degree equipped to use it as common means of communicating with native speakers of other languages? Were you aware at the time when you made that assessment of his communication skills of any and all cultural differences between his culture and yours that will influence communication in such a way that your communication skills assessment criteria must be adjusted and localised?

            Privilege ( even linguistic) skews perception.

          • sabelmouse

            read widely!

          • Stacy48918

            I do. But obviously you have found some information that I haven’t yet. Why do you want to withhold that information from me? Simply because you don’t like my tone I am not worthy of knowing?

            You have read something I haven’t. Please provide documentation of your opinion. It really shouldn’t be that hard.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Dutch midwives are university trained, which is not the case with the midwives we talk about who attend the majority of US homebirths. Dutch midwives do have terrible stats though.

          • sabelmouse

            lol!

          • Stacy48918

            Why laugh? There is peer-reviewed evidence for this claim. Low risk out of hospital birth with a Dutch midwife is more likely to get you a dead baby than HIGH risk hospital birth with an OB.

          • Samantha06

            “if it’s needed it’s ok unless of course the need has been created by malpractice in the first place.”

            I’m asking you to back up your statements. Tell me what’s needed in the situation I described and what would be considered malpractice?

          • Who?

            Silly me. Going to the doctor in a first world country for medical review, before you take your and your unborn baby’s life in your hands to satisfy an ideological urge is torture now? Any wonder you and the doctor couldn’t communicate-you speak woo, he or she would speak reason.

            I thought torture was, you know, fingernails pulled out, hooding, all carried out on someone who is compelled to be where they are by people who wish them harm and want something out of them.

            Obsessed by machines hey? Did you turn on the dishwasher and washing machine in the last month? Drive to appointments or a friend’s house? Thought so.

          • sabelmouse

            have you never met a doctor with bad bedside manner? not something you need when you’re pregnant the first time.
            what silly things you say. what do washing machines [don't have a dishwasher] to do with getting an ultrasound and being attached to a heartbeat monitor for an hour at a time for no reason.
            and calling me vicious!?!

          • Who?

            Is he or she an expert in their field? All I want to know. I have enough friends for now, I want an expert in a medical situation.

            And why is your idea of appropriate technology the only standard?

            For no reason you understand, sabelmouse, not for no reason. Remember about how you didn’t know about US midwives? There’s a whole world out there you don’t understand and you don’t seem to care. And when you push nonsense, in ignorance, that is vicious.

        • Stacy48918

          And of course YOU know in every single instance without being present at the birth or having a medical degree just exactly which intervention is “needed” and which is “malpractice”? Please, enlighten us. OBs everywhere want the knowledge you have.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’ve seen this argument before, but it doesn’t makes sense to me. By this argument, beheading someone as an expression of power is rape. Robbery is about power, so robbery is also rape? A person makes an executive decision at work because they have the power to do so, and has raped the committee? By making the definition so vague to include everything, you’ve rendered it more or less meaningless.

      • fiftyfifty1

        Yes, the idea that rape is about power, not sex, is ridiculous. Rape is about power AND sex. The intersection of the two. Why there is a certain line of thinking that denies this baffles me. That it comes out of feminist philosophy is particularly disappointing. Is it supposed to be less stigmatizing or something for victims to be told that rape is basically no different than being mugged, or punched? That doesn’t seem comforting to me, it seems invalidating.

        I have worked in the prison system. I have a friend who is a forensic psychologist who spends 80% of his time evaluating rapists. During medical school I was a co-facilitator of a men’s sex offender therapy group. Rapists would laugh at the idea that rape isn’t about sex. They will tell you straight up that they do it because they love violent, nonconsensual sex.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I generally say something like using sex to express power.

          That distinguishes it from other expressions of power like those I mentioned above.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “I generally say something like using sex to express power.”

            Which is a fine compromise, I suppose. And probably captures situations like rape as a war crime. But for serial rapists, I bet they would still laugh at that. All they know is that they find rape really stimulating sexually.

          • Cobalt

            Rape is using sex as a weapon, regardless of the goal of the rapist (sexual gratification, terror, subjugation, etc).

            Like stabbing/cutting is using a blade as a weapon. It doesn’t matter if the attacker’s goal is intimidation, robbery, or they just like seeing blood.

          • fiftyfifty1

            But I still see a big difference. A weapon is a tool used to attain a goal, whether that is self defense, or money in a robbery, or status in a dangerous neighborhood. The person using the knife is not typically* obsessed with knives and does not find the use of the knife supremely pleasurable. Robbers don’t fantasize about their crimes, or masturbate to memories of their crimes. The crime is not the point of the crime.

            This is how rape is different. Raping is the point of rape. It’s its own thing. Serial rapists have a rape paraphilia. To tell them that their “real goal” is power, or that what they are doing is “really” like a robber using a knife, is nonsensical and naive. The belief that it is the same sort of thing as armed robbery, just with a different weapon, can lead to problems like believing that rapists can be rehabilitated by the same sort of therapy as robbers can.

            *There are rare exceptions where criminals do find the use of the knife extremely pleasurable. These criminals have a murder paraphilia. It is no accident that many of these killers target women they find attractive and often (although not always) combine the killing with a rape, and masturbate to snuff porn.

          • Who?

            Mixing sex with violence or even real (as opposed to playful) submission takes you to a dark place, and how that can be rehabbed is hard to imagine.

            And this is another reason why being mindful about how we talk about rape is important, so as not to trivialise it.

          • AlisonCummins

            Rape during wartime can be a military strategy.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_sexual_violence#Military_strategy

          • fiftyfifty1

            yep, see my comment above (reply to Bofa)

        • toni

          They say that on Law and Order and similar programmes.. ‘It’s about power not sex.’ It’s like it’s become conventional wisdom amongst people in the know but I find it highly questionable. Why can’t it be both? Surely rapists choose victims they find sexually appealing in most cases? Although I do remember there being an investigation when I lived in Denmark when a girl reported a stranger rape and many of the locals saying she must have made it up because the girl they thought had made the complaint was overweight so who would want to rape her.. which was of course ridiculous. So maybe it is meant to counter stupid opinions like that

          I’m in two minds about this birth rape subject. Some obstetricians do get sexual gratification from brutalising their patients e.g. Clifford Ayling and the other doctor he was in cahoots with. makes sense if you’re in med school and have predatory tendencies that you would choose gynaecology or similar as your speciality.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The problem with this attitude is that it begs the question of what is “sexually appealing.”

            “Sexually appealing” does not require traditional attractiveness, it involves an ability to have sex.

            See for example prison rape. These guys aren’t homosexual, yet are raping other guys. Not because they are sexually appealing, but because of the appeal of sex.

        • AlisonCummins

          The point is that women aren’t raped by nice men who get too turned on, they are raped by rapists. This is important because if it’s about ordinary men getting too turned on then women can prevent rape by not turning men on. You know, dressing modestly. A woman who dresses provocatively is bound to turn someone on too much and get herself raped.

          • fiftyfifty1

            And that’s an incredibly important point. But unfortunately I think the saying utterly fails in getting that point across, and instead leaves an impression that whoever says it is totally oblivious and naive about the motivations of rapists.

          • Who?

            I struggle with the label here, which is why it is important to be mindful of how particular things are described.

            It is possible to be a fine upstanding member of society who does the washing up when it’s your turn, and still think that women are or should be subject to your sexual whims. In this culture and time, that’s a rapist, in another it’s called a husband.

            Or, perhaps a 20 year old misreading signs might do something his 30 year old self wouldn’t consider.

            Or perhaps the nice girl is too young to consent and for whatever reason the nice guy doesn’t know it, and her parents aren’t happy.

            The complication, as always, is at the edges.

          • AlisonCummins

            It’s true, some cultures don’t have a concept of rape. (Read the bible and try to figure out which women and girls having sex with someone other than their husbands were willing and which were raped.) Women are the property of their fathers or husbands and if a husband loses control of his wife, either because she willingly steps out or because another man usurps him, he’s dishonoured.

            That doesn’t mean that when men force themselves on unwilling women or girls that it’s because they were too sexy and the men were overcome with lust and couldn’t help themselves.

          • Who?

            As you say, the clear issue is never the challenge.

            In many places it is legally incomprehensible to suggest a man can rape his wife, regardless of the violence involved.

            In others including mine, it is legally impossible for a girl of a particular age to consent to sex, regardless of how keen she is while participating.

            It can be complicated, is all I’m saying.

      • sabelmouse

        i’m not bothering!

        • Stacy48918

          Flounce away then, rather than defend your argument like a rational individual. Why should we care what you think, if you can’t even defend your beliefs?

          • sabelmouse

            i’m not bothering because of your attitude.

          • Stacy48918

            Very well then. But still, why should anyone in the world pay attention to anything you say if you cannot defend your arguments? Only the “nice” people deserve the secret information about birth you have?

          • sabelmouse

            they don’t have to. i’m giving an opinion, i’m not trying to bully people.

          • yugaya

            On this forum arguing your point by citing examples from TV shows will only get you mocked, and that is not bullying, that is people who do make an effort to have a decent discussion getting frustrated with completely irrelevant nonsense . I understand that we have opposing views on safety of homebirth and medical assault during childbirth, and that we can probably agree on a very few points down the line, but I also appreciate how you agreed that lay midwives are also guilty of the behaviour that you define as “birth rape”. It’s a start, and I am sure that if you tried to remove personal bias from your argumentation that we could agree on a few more. You could read a couple of other post where you will find that most of the people who comment here as well as the author of the blog in agreement with you on truly important issues, like this one: http://www.skepticalob.com/2014/05/you-cannot-perform-a-c-section-on-a-woman-without-her-consent-period.html

          • sabelmouse

            what is the problem with mentioning that a tv show addressed the dilemma that medical staff face when a woman refuses treatment that they deem necessary for the foetus but that would violate her person?
            my daughter and i recently watched ER and were amazed to see this addressed especially considering the present climate in the usa surrounding the issue of the rights of the foetus vs the rights of the ”vessel”!
            i’m not familiar with lay midwives myself. over here in europe we have midwives who are fully trained professionals though their status, autonomy, and pay varies from country to country.
            as for consent [ and that is of course part of what ER was addressing]; big reason to not be alone, to be informed , and have an advocate for your interests. it’s not easy to make those decisions in the throes of labour, let alone in a difficult labour.
            one ought to be able to trust the medical professionals to work in the best interest of mother and child.

          • yugaya

            IT’s a TV show, it is a filtered fictional representation, it is not a valid source of anything other than entertainment and maybe a few lingering questions that if you wish to address answering properly you will need to consult real life things like studies, reports and competent professional opinions.

            I live in the part of world which is often portrayed as a side plot in TV shows, and if your opinion on this part of the world and what goes on in it was based on or reinforced by what you picked up on TV shows well, you’d be in serious trouble with things like reality, common sense and objectivity. We laugh over here in despair at every new example that pops up, and unfortunately every TV show out there that runs longer than a single season in any genre seems to have an urge to “address” the dilemmas of my part of the world.

          • kerlyssa

            Now I’m curious- what part of the world do you live in?

          • yugaya

            Central / Eastern Europe.

          • sabelmouse

            what, you expect a medical drama not to address issues of ethics?

          • yugaya

            I don’t expect it to be raised as valid argument when discussing the actual issues of medicine and ethics – ” I saw it on TV” is ..well…it’s not a real argument. Really, it’s not.

          • sabelmouse

            who raised it as an argument and for what?

          • yugaya

            Seriously?

          • sabelmouse

            yes, seriously! an aside about a tv show addressing somthing is not raising an argument.

          • Who?

            Quite so.

            You are a lovely example of the reason it is so hard to take seriously the anti-medical viewpoint.

            All sorts of people are asking you questions, trying to investigate your position. You ignore those, and either make a remark or aside, like your comment about ‘serving’, or create a your own-like your bit of ER trivia-to attempt avoid facing that what you actually want isn’t to have a discussion or challenge opinion in a forum, but to be agreed with and supported, even when your position is factually incorrect.

            And then you back down and wobble, or go on the attack about attitude or tone or whatever, deny what you said means what you said, then flounce.

            You are at the wrong party.

          • sabelmouse

            do you know what a conversation is or are you trapped in a nerdfighter ”we’re all trying to win a school debate” attitude?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Granted, the questions are all rhetorical because they know darn well you can’t and won’t answer them, but in terms of a conversation, you are the one who keeps saying “look it up.”

            You make some vague statement, people ask, “Can you provide an example of what you mean?” and you duck, dodge and avoid it, all the time complaining about them asking you.

            Now, if this were an actual conversation, you could say, “Yeah, like when this type of thing happens” and then go on to provide an example. Or, alternatively, when we are faced with the situation in real conversations, we could say, “Well, I don’t know of anything in particular, but I’ve heard other claims of such things, but I really don’t know if there is anything to it.”

          • AlisonCummins

            Nothing wrong with it at all. You’re establishing common ground. You’re demonstrating that you are aware that the ethical dilemma is commonplace, well-understood and has long since been resolved in favour of the mother (except, apparently, in Ireland, as Savita can not testify). It’s not a big secret or something that each individual practitioner has to figure out for themselves at each individual disaster.

            The reason folks are getting all frothy here is that many of them have faced this dilemma themselves. Women who have been taught by untrained american homebirth midwives to distrust obstetricians show up in the emergency ward with dead or dying fetuses, hemorrhaging dangerously or with severe tearing, wanting help but afraid of their helpers. The staff know that the disaster would have been completely preventable with appropriate medical care. They know that untrained us midwives are allowed to practice and lie to their patients about risks

          • AlisonCummins

            They know that the woman in front of them has been lied to, has a distorted view of risk and may refuse interventions that could help her and her baby. They know that the only ethical thing they can do is honour the woman’s autononmy even if they believe she is acting based on false information. They do respect her autonomy. And it’s terrible to watch catastrophes unfold and to know there’s nothing they can do about it.

            That’s what this blog is for. So that pregnant women will have better information, and so that they realize that no, the opinion of an untrained high school graduate is not just as valid as the opinion of someone who understands physiology and has delivered thousands of babies with colleagues always present to call them to account.

          • sabelmouse

            well, allowing untrained midwives to practise is very strange indeed. you mean doulas, right?
            strange country you’ve got over there.

          • AlisonCummins

            No. I don’t mean doulas.

            In every other industrialized nation, midwives need professional training. In the US they do not.

            The US is a very strange country indeed.

          • sabelmouse

            you have NO professionally trained midwives in the usa? not even in hospitals?

          • Ash

            Midwives are regulated state by state. Some states require that anyone calls that calls themselves a “midwife” meets standards that would be close to equivalent to other midwives in 1st world countries. Some states, however, have no regulation about who calls themselves “midwife” and what they are permitted to do. Also, some states have legalized midwives who do not have sufficient training to call themselves “midwives” in 1st world countries–for example, you could call yourself “midwife” if you took an online class and observed homebirths under someone who was also trained outside of any formal schooling program.

          • AlisonCummins

            They exist. They are called CNMs — Certified Nurse Midwives. They usually practice in hospitals and rarely attend homebirths.

            The midwives who attend homebirths are usually CPMs — Certified Professional Midwives. They have extremely limited training.

          • sabelmouse

            again, weird!

          • AlisonCummins

            Yep!

            Something all the regulars here agree on.

          • sabelmouse

            and are they doing anything to change that? other than claim that hospital births are best and that netherlands has mountains of infants die?
            why not work toward proper midwifery outside of hospital?
            i sure can’t see any bias in any or you/se comments towards defending hospital birth at all costs.

          • AlisonCummins

            The author of this site is working to have untrained, uninsured midwives not licensed to charge money to attend homebirths.

            Hospital births are safest for both mother and baby. It’s up to mothers to decide how much that matters to them when evaluating what’s “best.”

            Mothers can’t decide and choose meaningfully if they believe things that aren’t true. This site is about ensuring that mothers have access to accurate information.

            The claim about the Netherlands’ perinatal death rate is based on data. Source is here:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19192585
            Discussion is here:
            http://www.skepticalob.com/2010/07/netherlands-homebirth-and-high.html

            Yes, the regulars here are biased towards facts and reality. Aren’t you?

          • Who?

            No, not weird, sabelmouse, different. You show your deep-seated prejudice and ignorance with that one word.

            And that is the frame of reference that informs this discussion.

          • AlisonCummins

            You believe you’re sharing an informed opinion. When people are ask you to defend your opinion they aren’t bullying you. If your opinion is truly informed, they will revise their opinions. If you discover your opinion isn’t as informed as you thought it was, you have an opportunity to revise yours.

            Not all opinions are created equal. That’s why it’s beneficial to scrutinize them.

          • sabelmouse

            some are bullying. i know that type from other discussions.

          • AlisonCummins

            I’m sure some are. You can respond to the ones who are honestly asking you to defend your opinion.

            You might not be used to being asked that, but it’s not mean.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If by “bullying” you mean that they are pulling down your figurative pants and running your figurative undies up the flag pole for everyone to see, then I have to say, I kind of agree.

            Of course, the way they did that was to call your bluff and let you expose yourself. So not so much that they pulled down your pants, but more that you did it for them.

      • sdsures

        There was a really disturbing trend on Facebook, not long ago, that if someone hijacked a thread conversation, they had “fraped” (a portmanteau of “Facebook” and “rape”) the people involved. People were THAT pissed off by having their conversation derailed that it was equivalent of rape.

        I found that term very offensive, as did a lot of other Facebook users. Eventually, it fell out of favour.

      • Siri

        Income tax = rape. Speeding tickets = rape. Me imposing bedtime on my primary school child = rape, obv. Do you think Patricia works with 5-year-olds?

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

        I always assumed it means rape is about power, not sexual *pleasure*

    • Who?

      You’ll struggle to find anyone here who would support a woman being forced into medical treatment against her will. Very occasionally women who meet a legal standard of incompetence will be directed to have treatment-perhaps a cs-because a court decides they are not capable of making a lucid decision.

      Same as you can’t be forced to have your infected toenail off if you don’t want to, despite the fact that it might kill or disable you if left alone.

      ‘Rape’ comes into it because the action is happening around the sex organs, and one way to access the baby is through the vagina.

      How would you describe the trauma felt by a medical team who are refused consent to save a baby? Is that a form of rape too, or does this party only happen in one direction?

      The women I find most interesting are those who refuse all treatment until their own life is clearly in danger, and then take it, even after death of or serious injury to their baby.

      • sabelmouse

        the medical team is there to serve, that’s part of the job they took on.

        • kerlyssa

          So they stop being people once they agree to ‘serve’. Nice.

          • sabelmouse

            lol, where did i say that?

          • AlisonCummins

            Who? asked:
            “How would you describe the trauma felt by a medical team who are refused consent to save a baby? Is that a form of rape too, or does this party only happen in one direction?”

            sabelmouse replied:
            “the medical team is there to serve, that’s part of the job they took on.”

        • Stacy48918

          Right, so no pity for them at all that they have to assist in extracting a dead baby out of a mother that chose to homebirth. Suck it up buttercup! You chose to serve! No feelings for you!

          • sabelmouse

            as i’ve said, serve. there’s a couple of episodes of ER that deal with such things. they obvs still addressed that then.
            besides, i didn’t say no feelings. but no right to dictate.

          • Stacy48918

            Oh, well, if it was on ER.

            Providing recommendations, even strongly worded recommendations, based on medical evidence is not dictating. Telling a woman “if you do that, you increase the risk your baby will die. You need a C-section” is not “dictating” if it is the truth.

            Doctors are supposed to just passively stand by and let their patients direct them? Why bother with all that medical training?

          • sdsures

            I guess they needn’t have wasted 12+ years on specialized medical training, since they shouldn’t be able to tell us what they know more about.

          • Allie P

            I’m *so* glad I don’t deal with medical professionals who take their cues from a TV drama.

          • sabelmouse

            what are you even talking about. if i mention that charlotte bronte mentions typhus in jane eyre does that mean i take medical advice from novelists?
            i merely said that the ethics of a women having say about what is done to her body was brought up by ER and that it was quite amazing considering todays climate regarding these issues. do any of youse have any degree of reading comprehension or ability to reason?

          • Stacy48918

            On ER they have a 90% code survival rate. Should we take this to be reflective of real life?

            Of course not.

            So why should an ethics discussion on ER have any place in a real life ethic discussion?

          • sdsures

            This article, written about a doctor facing terminal cancer, says pretty much the same thing – that the low rate of code survival is why many of them, knowing about it, choose to have a DNR when faced with a terminal illness. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-die.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

          • Stacy48918

            I am very honest with folks about this in the veterinary setting. We ask every client when a patient is admitted what their resus wishes are. Many ask “what would you do” and I’m honest – if a pet codes in my hospital they have <5% chance of surviving to discharge. I have NEVER had a client, after hearing that, elect resuscitation. Once folks really know the odds of survival, they aren't interested in asking me to beat on their poor dog for 15 minutes in futility.

          • sdsures

            A couple of weeks ago, we had to put my cat to sleep (old age-related health problems; she was 18). It was hell emotionally, but it was the right decision.

          • Who?

            I was recently at the vet having a well dog checkup-well the dog was having one but he can’t push the button to cross at the lights so I take him-and there was a lady calling in to see her sick cat. The lady was about to travel to another city-2 hours by plane-and instructed the vet to call if the cat took a turn for the worse and to keep the cat going, by whatever means, until she could get back.

            So sad for the lady and the cat, and really hard on the vet to I imagine.

          • Who?

            And if it’s the same episode I saw a few weeks ago-my daughter and I have a bad ER habit around her exam times-the baby was born brain dead, abandoned by the surrogate whose baby it was not, and abandoned by the natural parents who had paid for a whole one. Lovely.

            And since you’re quoting ER, what did you think of the episode where the boy died of measles? Propaganda?

            Oh, and ‘youse’ is bad when you say it, it is outrageous when you write it. The plural of ‘you’ is ‘you’.

            You’re welcome.

          • MaineJen

            I remember that episode. IIRC, the woman refused a c section when her baby was in distress, and the baby was born profoundly brain damaged. Is that the example you’re holding up for us?

          • sabelmouse

            i’m not holding anything up. the fact that nobody on this thread can tell the difference is telling.

          • Samantha06

            Just as you have no right to dictate to THEM. You have the right to refuse care, but YOU are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of YOUR decision. If there is a bad outcome because of a choice YOU made, that is not the fault of medical professionals.. even the ones on TV!

          • sabelmouse

            ”Just as you have no right to dictate to THEM. You have the right to refuse care, but YOU are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of YOUR decision.”

            OBVS!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          the medical team is there to serve, that’s part of the job they took on.

          No. They are not there to “serve.” They are there to provide medical care. It’s not Burger King.

          And even if it were Burger King, they don’t even give customers what they want if they know that it is bad practice. For example, you can’t go to Burger King and order a raw hamburger. They won’t give it to you, because consuming raw meat is too much of a risk, and if they were to serve you such and you were to get sick, they would be responsible.

          The short answer is that you are just completely wrong about this.

          • Who?

            This is a useful analogy, because even someone there to serve-which medical providers aren’t-won’t do it if it creates an unreasonable risk to themselves.

            Which is exactly why medical teams don’t knock women out and do cs on them against the woman’s wishes to save the baby: the getting struck off and insurance issues would just be too great. Though with the baby’s life at risk they are likely getting sued anyway as Mum, when she realises the gravity of her decision, will claim they didn’t explain well enough. Which is why keeping good contemporaneous records is crucial.

        • Dr Kitty

          Medicine is not a job where the customer is always right.

          If your lawyer, electrician, plumber, architect or accountant advised a course of action would you say “I understand that you have specialist knowledge, so I will defer to your judgement” or would you say ” I don’t want to do that, I want you to do it my way” and expect them to do what you demand against their better judgement and all their professional guidelines?

          I’m betting you would understand that you take their suggestions or you’re on your own.

          Your doctor cannot demand you follow their advice, but no, you don’t get to demand they treat you in a way which they feel to be antithetical to good practice.

        • Who?

          Er, no. That’s your ill qualified, ill prepared homebirth midwife and her woo-ridden sidekicks.

          Actual professionals have an obligation to tell the truth and act in the patient’s best interests.

          • sabelmouse

            as do qualified midwives. all my midwives were very well prepared, no side kicks. you seem to be stuck in that hierarchical medical system and can’t even imagine what something better looks like! google midwifery in the netherlands!
            hey, you might even watch ” call the midwife”! that’s english though.

          • Dr Kitty

            That would be the system which gives the Netherlands the third worst perinatal mortality rate in Europe- better only than France and Latvia?

            http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a3118

          • sabelmouse

            great, an article i can’t read. i would dearly love to know how the sunk so low, not that the usa is not still worse.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, the USA’s perinatal mortality is better than the Netherlands or Britain, although not as good as Sweden. The USA’s stillbirth figures are very very low. Look it up!

          • sabelmouse

            lol! there’s really nothing else to say an apparently you/se don’t have any proof other than an inaccessible article.
            infant mortality isn’t just stillbirth,

          • Dr Kitty

            Infant mortality is the wrong metric- you need to look at perinatal deaths.

            This is perfectly accessible and very interesting reading, and again shows Dutch perinatal mortality as not that great. It is 233 pages long though.

            https://premup.org/media/documents/european-perinatal-health-report_2010.pdf

            You don’t see any irony at all that you say we should do our own research to check your claims, yet you apparently don’t want to do any research of your own (or pay to read good quality research) if we cite something?

          • Stacy48918

            You’re right, infant mortality isn’t just stillbirth.

            If my 9 month old pulls the dresser down on her head and dies of the crush injury, that is “infant mortality”. What, pray tell, would dying that way have to do with whether she was born in a hospital or not? If I had an epidural or not?

            Nothing at all. And educated people know that infant mortality is not a measure of birth safety. But you don’t. Despite “reading widely’.

          • toni

            Why is France so bad? I went to university there and, apart from their encouragement of homeopathy, I was impressed with the (non maternity) care I received. I’ve heard no complaints from friends who delivered there and I know they are very generous with epidurals. That was in Paris though.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Sablemouse is one of the most ignorant antivaxxers on the net. I would even bother to argue with it

          • Samantha06

            Wow, you are so right about that..

  • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

    I have deleted no posts. And just because I refer you to a website does not mean I subscribe to its philosophy. But I might delete my posts. They have been so distorted in your own little minds. Some of you people are really not nice. I pity any mother under the “care” of people who would use such foul language and sling names around as I have seen here. Really gives me an even more negative view of the medical field. You all hide behind pseudonyms so that you can be ugly anonymously. Icky, icky, icky. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Such a pity that anyone would treat anyone with such callousness.

    • Box of Salt

      Patricia Robinett, “I have deleted no posts. And just because I refer you to a website does not mean I subscribe to its philosophy. But I might delete my posts. They have been so distorted in your own little minds. Some of you people are really not nice. I pity any mother under the “care” of people who would use such foul language and sling names around as I have seen here. Really gives me an even more negative view of the medical field. You all hide behind pseudonyms so that you can be ugly anonymously. Icky, icky, icky. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Such a pity that anyone would treat anyone with such callousness.”

      Delete away. In addition to my copy and paste, I have a screen shot.

      You claim to defend women who have been bullied, yet much of the content you have posted over the past few days could qualify as bullying ME.

      But since I have pointed out some of your errors, you are no longer interested enough in me to find out why we disagree.

      Oh, and if you’re going to call out others for namecalling, don’t continue your comment by doing the same.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        You? I would not call you a name. I don’t stoop to that kind of talk. Even when I talk to my friends about the most dastardly of dastards… I call them “naughty”.

        I can’t tell that you have a name. Surely you are not really a “box of salt”. Let me know who you are and I will be happy to engage you in a real conversation so you don’t have to continue to speculate, theorize and gossip about me.

        In general, I suspect that most of you here are very nice in person… but on the web you feel that you can anonymously “let ‘er rip” at anyone who voices concern over medical industry practices and ethics. Your energies would be better spent if you were to direct them at cleaning up the industry. I was appalled by Amy’s ugly rant against mothers… You could start there by encouraging her to be kinder, gentler and more fair… but then I guess she wouldn’t have such a “busy” discussion group. I have begun to wonder if she might not be paid by ACOG to put down natural birth and other issues.

        • Bombshellrisa

          She would have to hide her head, since she had natural births with a couple of her kids. Anyway, screen names ARE names. This is a real discussion forum and don’t flatter yourself, we aren’t fascinated with or gossiping about you. You just keep putting it out there and get responses. You must know how to stop that. Don’t worry, despite your hilariously uninformed opinions, we aren’t going to talk about you when you leave.

        • Box of Salt

          Patricia Robinett, ” Surely you are not really a “box of salt”. ”

          “Salt.” Salt is an ionic compound. Most often when folks use the word “salt” they refer to sodium chloride, but it’s actually a generic term for ionic compound. Look it up. Sometimes, “salt” is included in colloquial expressions, such as “I’ll take that with a grain of salt” or “pouring salt into the wound.”

          My salt is iodized, for my thyroid. Plus I like the color purple.

          I am sold by Morton’s, and I have a really great umbrella.

          “Your energies would be better spent if you were to direct them at cleaning up the industry” What industry? The salt industry? Chemistry in general?

          Can I call you Patsy?

          No?

          Because you, Madam, attempted to bully me by messing with my “name” after I questioned you directly, and you’re still bullying now.

          No, Patricia Robinett, the bullying is not just the the namecalling you think you didn’t do.

          It’s your total lack of empathy for anyone whose experiences don’t align with your worldview.

        • Who?

          Hold on a second-’kinder, gentler and more fair’ to whom? What mothers-other than those who try to either pretend the death of or damage to their baby was unavoidable-is Dr T unkind to? Loss mothers come here and are horrified when they learn the cause of their terrible loss was entirely avoidable had they taken medical advice.

          And then we have the conspiracy balloon put up. Only the impure of heart could disagree with you, hey Patricia? And what do you and your angry heart charge for calming/woo nutrition etc classes these days?

        • sabelmouse

          i would not be surprised. the web is full of shills.

        • Stacy48918

          I’m glad Dr. Amy isn’t “kinder, gentler and more fair”. Completely changed my mind on the homebirth issue.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Delete away! I’ve got screen shots.

    • LibrarianSarah

      This is something I lecture my students on frequently. Here is what I tell them. Every time you cite a source you are consigning your name to the source. You are telling your reader “I consider this good information.” You cited an anti-semitic website as a source. This leads the reader to one of two conclusions.

      First of which is that you lazily google searched for information that will support your point of view and picked the first result without even looking it over. If this is the case, you should offer a mea culpa and explain what happened.

      Second case would be that you are an anti-Semite. I’d like to clarify that calling you an anti-Semite in this case is not “bullying.” It is calling a spade a spade. You co-signed your name to a disgustingly anti-Semetic source. What did you expect people to think?

      Speaking of names, your preoccupation with people using there real names is a defense mechanism that you use to deflect criticism. The thoughts and ideas are what matter not where they are coming from. I use different pseudonyms for different sites because I value my privacy and I know how easy it is to locate troubling things like where I live and who my employer is based sole on my names. People have had cranks call there employers in order to get them in trouble at work because they hurt these cranks precious fee fees. I

      • LibrarianSarah

        Sorry my iPad decided that I was no longer allowed to type or edit that comment. My last sentence was going to be ” I would like to avoid that if possible.”

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    I just want to put this up top so that everyone knows what we’re dealing with here with Patricia Robinett:

    She has deleted the comment, but I got it sent to my email notifications. In response to her stating that ALL the wars of the past 2 1/2 centuries were caused by “circumcising cultures,” I asked her how they were responsible for WWII. This is what she replied:

    “Well, you might be sorry you asked… http://guardian.150m.com/jews/…”

    This is the site- warning, you may need to shower after you go there…

    http://guardian.150m.com

    It has such charming articles such as: “The Genocidal Gods of the Jews,” and “Jewish Terrorism,” “Some Zionist/Jewish Fairy Tales,” and “The Psychopathic Israeli’s Strategy for Conquest of the Middle East.”

    It’s also full of 9/11 conspiracy crap.

    Oh, let’s not forget about it’s best article of all…”A Quick Proof that the Holocaust Story is A Lie.”

    So, that’s what we’re dealing with, folks. Beneath her guise of just wanting to help and protect women, we have a rabid anti-Semite who is a Holocaust denialist.

    • Dr Kitty

      I think Patricia’s anti-semitism comes from her intactivism, not the other way around, but she still got to a really creepy place in the end.

      I’m mostly just sad for her that she doesn’t have the insight to know she needs help, and as her entire belief system pretty much ensures she will never get it, she’s going to keep peddling her crazy crap to any sucker willing to buy it.

      • Samantha06

        You know the old saying.. “there’s a sucker born every minute”.. and Patricia’s income depends on it!

        • Box of Salt

          Samantha06 “and Patricia’s income depends on it!”

          But ever since yugaya and I pointed out that she has a business and a book for sale she’s been insisting she’s retired.

          She’s also antivaccine. Crank magnetism at its finest.

          (Although I’m not sure about her stance on global warming, and I’m going to guess she’s not actually into creationism because it’s Judeo-Christian.)

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Very amusing. All of you. LOL… sorry, but you are just too amusing. I can’t help but laugh. I guess this is why I used to think poorly of women.

          • Dr Kitty

            Patricia,
            You link to a disgusting antisemitic website which posts holocaust denying rubbish as a response to a specific question about how you think circumcision led to WW2.

            You then feign shock and outrage that we think you’re an antisemite and a holocaust denier.

            Those letters my great uncle wrote while interned in a camp and which he managed to have smuggled out to his wife are obviously fake.
            Presumably his death in Auschwitz was faked too.
            And hey, even if it wasn’t, he probably deserved it, because he was a doctor, right?

            If that website isn’t an accurate representation of your view of why WW2 started, do feel free to post, in your own words, exactly what you believe, so there can be absolutely no misunderstanding.

          • MaineJen

            …sadly, I think we’ve all understood her just fine.

          • Siri

            You used to think poorly of women…until you realised they could help make you rich. Now you regard them as so many geese laying golden eggs …. sorry, I mean victims of ob$tetrical abu$e.

          • LibrarianSarah

            You seem to still think pretty poorly of women Patricia.

          • SporkParade

            Actually, creationism is very specific to a subset of English-speaking Protestants. It’s pretty well established in both the Jewish and Catholic traditions that Genesis 1 is written from a divine perspective and cannot be taken literally.

          • Box of Salt

            SporkParade: agreed.

          • MLE

            The world is warmer because circumcising cultures are the greatest polluters, of course.

      • Siri

        Dr Kitty, why do you always have to choose the most generous explanation?! It’s almost as if, despite being a shill for the medico – pharmaceutical machine, you possess compassion and an open mind… most bizarre.

      • yugaya

        The end justifies the means – strip away her/their holier than thou human rights advocate rhetoric, and what is left is a nasty pile of machiavellian narcissism.

    • Bombshellrisa

      We should have known there was something amiss when she was suggesting the documentary made by the dolphin birth woman.

    • KarenJJ

      I have to say that few posters that are in here trolling over the past few days have given me the creeps as much as these ones.

    • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

      Name calling is a logical fallacy.
      Amy Goodman interview with Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni;

    • Kate

      I was actually still able to find the comment. The contents are just as you described, though.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Oh, good. I’m glad she left it up for all to see.

    • sdsures

      I’m Jewish, and I feel really sick after reading that.

      • Mishimoo

        I’m not Jewish, and I also feel really sick after reading that.

        • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

          I’m a damned atheist and I feel physically ill after reading just the first page.

  • Box of Salt

    To all, even those outside the USA:

    Happy Thanksgiving!

    Feed your loved ones, not the trolls.

    • Samantha06

      Thank you!
      Happy Thanksgiving to you too and to everyone!

    • MLE

      And what if your loved ones are trolls???

      • Bombshellrisa

        Hey-I have a concern troll and tone troll coming to dinner tomorrow night (family so I guess they have to be fed)

        • Box of Salt

          Bombshellrisa, in your shoes I’d try to put more emphasis on food than thought.

        • Amazed

          Bomb, how did the troll night go? Did you feed them to – what passes for a troll’s heart anyway? – s satisfaction? How is your BP?

          • Bombshellrisa

            I should preface this saying these trolls earned their titles for their concern over me getting vaccinated while pregnant (flu and whooping cough). They prefer to use prebiotics, “nature’s flu shot” (I have discussed this here before and shared the recipe) and eat organic food. Tone troll earned her title because I was obviously using the wrong tone with her. Turns out both got the flu and couldn’t make it. It was an awesome night-my ten month old and his two year old cousin played together while dd and grandma danced to hits we have on vinyl. Dad and I cooked and my friends helped me clean as I went so I didn’t have a messy kitchen. Loved it.

          • Amazed

            Ah, so nice to hear it.
            Helping clean sounds so familiar… Last week, I was to my hometown and went to celebrate the 1st birthday of a friend’s little troublemaker. It was quite the party and as she was putting him to sleep, we started cleaning the kitchen, so it wouldn’t fall to her to do it. At the end, it was just I and her mother in-law left when she entered and ordered us to stop. When we didn’t want to, she declared that it was not MY job to clean her kitchen but sit down and talk to her since we saw each other just a few times a year. MIL soon gave up as well and in a burst of genius and goodwill decided that she could just go home and let us talk for half an hour or so. We really thought it would only be half an hour. Instead, it ended up a bottle of wine later. Sooo pleased.

          • Bombshellrisa

            That sounds so nice. Time flies when there is something nice to sip and a good friend to talk to!
            Thanksgiving is a really special time for my family-we don’t do traditional turkey, we do German, Austrian and Slovenian foods since my dad is Slovenian (or Austrian depending on where the border was then). Ten month old tried everything and loved it. Dad and I go to the German market to get supplies earlier in the week and cook for two days.

      • Box of Salt

        Invest in good mousse and spray in color, and make sure their hair stands up straight!

        Smile and nod a lot. No one agrees all the time.

        • Box of Salt

          Mousse as in hair product. Not chocolate, and definitely not salmon.

    • sdsures

      May your true thoughts about your loved ones not come out of your mouth at the dinner table.

  • attitude devant

    What does Patricia Robinett mean by “the Rockefeller medical system?”

    • Who?

      Some kind of paranoid fantasy about doctors-I think since the 19th century-jumping on the capitalist bandwagon so they can ply their evil (former) trade as professionals as part of the maintenance of the capitalist system. Science seems to be a key ‘cover’ for this process. I googled it, made my brain hurt so I stopped looking.

      I don’t want to link as there is a book and I don’t want it to jump up the rankings because all Dr T’s readers go in for a look.

      All the time and energy that goes into identifying conspiracies is such a waste-if only it could be harnessed for good.

    • Samantha06

      I’m not sure. Maybe it means based on ability to pay???

    • Young CC Prof

      Possibly she thinks it means 50′s style, or just harsh, as in Rockefeller drug laws?

    • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

      • Elizabeth A

        I’m not updating my Adobe Flash for someone who recommends two hour granola documentaries as often as Patricia.

        I googled “Rockefeller Medical System” so that you don’t have to. The first hit is whale.to.

        It is possible that the Holocaust deniers so vile that MDC (*MDC*!) banned links to their site have stumbled by accident on some kind of valid thesis or reasonable argument, but that’s not how the smart money bets.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      It’s part of a conspiracy. Rockefeller, Rothschilds and Bill Gates are all out to poison and sicken the common man. Jews are usually involved in some way.

      Conspiracy Theory 101.

      I love people like Patricia. They make their “side” (the anti-vax, alt-med side) look like the batshit-crazy people they truly are.

  • sdsures

    I guess prostate exams must be “prostate rape”, too, eh? And rectal exams. Oh, and bulb syringes to suck mucus from baby’s nose and mouth. (Obviously I think “birth rape” is ridiculous – I just wanted to say so to make sure nobody gets the wrong idea. Sarcasm can be hard to detect when all you are seeing is words typed on a screen.)

    • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

      Women who are violated, who feel violated, during birth can – as far as I am concerned – use the term “birth rape”. There are different kinds of rape and they can each one have a defining prefix. Or… call it medical assault and battery. Either one seems to be appropriate to me. Doctors who are accused of being overly intrusive and rough might want to learn manners and communication skills.

      • Elizabeth A

        Here’s the thing though – Yes, I felt violated during labor, but I didn’t feel violated because of things that other people did. I felt violated because I was in extremis, physically and mentally. I pushed for five and a half hours, and by the end, the combination of pain, exhaustion and the fever I was running massively skewed my perceptions of the people around me. When the OB held my son up and told me I had a beautiful baby boy, I mistook his umbilical cord for his legs, concluded I had given birth to a horribly deformed child, and believed that I was in the Twilight Zone, surrounded by a conspiracy of liars who meant to hurt me. Seeing the clamp on the umbilical cord helped me snap reality back into perspective, and reinterpret many things that had been making me angry. For example, the nurses said “one more push,” not because they meant ONLY one more and they were skanking liars bent on torture, but because they were using English in the way people do when they aren’t temporarily incapable of all but the most rigidly literal thinking. And then, while I was hemorrhaging, I felt panicky about the room and what the medical staff was doing to me, not because there was anything actually wrong, but because blood loss makes people feel panicky.

        I don’t mean to justify everything that every doctor has ever done – I’ve certainly run across cases where I feel that doctors should be censured and booted out of the profession – but “the patient felt violated” can’t be the final word on whether or not an action was appropriate for a doctor to take, because labor, illness and pain can distort both perception and comprehension.

    • Siri

      When I was in hospital a couple of months ago my nostril was raped by a nasogastric tube – it was horrible. It was a prolonged assault, lasting nearly 48 hours. And my veins were repeatedly violated when healthcare assistants tried to cannulate me. Their efforts left me black and blue. I wonder if I need Patty’s services to help cure the trauma I endured? I was also given deep sedation by an evil anaesthetist; perhaps Trish can help me recover the memory of whatever atrocities the surgical team subjected me to?

      • sdsures

        LOL

  • EasyPeeler

    I think if someone feels they have been in some way raped it is equally valid to someone who the law or other governing body deems to have actually been raped. The meaning of words changes all the time. And it seems ridiculous to me to say that how the woman feels doesn’t matter. I’m sure not all of these instances happen in moments of dire need and could be the work of overzealous or compassion deficient docs.

    • Dr Kitty

      “Rape” is a crime with a specific legal meaning.
      Therefore yes, it does matter if you use that word to describe something that is not rape.

      A woman could feel violated or assaulted, but if she was not raped, then she wasn’t raped. No one dismisses her feelings,.

      Just like we say that people can feel that they have been robbed, but we know that unless they have actually been robbed, then they don’t say “I have been robbed” and expect their feelings to turn something unpleasant but legal into a crime.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
        Friday, January 6, 2012
        Attorney General Eric Holder Announces Revisions to the Uniform Crime Report’s Definition of Rape

        Attorney General Eric Holder today announced revisions to the Uniform Crime Report’s (UCR) definition of rape, which will lead to a more comprehensive statistical reporting of rape nationwide. The new definition is more inclusive, better reflects state criminal codes and focuses on the various forms of sexual penetration understood to be rape. The new definition of rape is: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The definition is used by the FBI to collect information from local law enforcement agencies about reported rapes.

        • Samantha06

          This was already hashed out with your cohort- Ms AgainstMedicalRape..

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            It needed to be said, even if twice. The author of this article provided a definition that was absurdly exclusionary (excluding men and children as possible rape victims). The definition she provides for her own argument is outdated, narrow-minded, and irrelevant, as is the rest of the article that surrounds it.

    • Who?

      No, no, no.

      It makes everything meaningless if you can call something whatever you want, because it makes you feel validated. Of course feelings matter, but they don’t tell the whole story and you can’t bend the world to your will in that way.

  • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

    Madam, intent IS the problem in medical abuse as well as street assault. The intent behind rape is power-over and disrespect. Your article exemplifies the narcissistic medical personnel attitude that is finally coming to light, thanks to some very courageous women who have found their voice.

    It appears that the medical attitude in this situation – as well as others – is: “I am the power and you should neither have nor voice an opinion in opposition to mine. I am the authority. You should bow to authority. Shut your mouth and bow to me! I am a doctor! I am smarter than you are! You can teach me nothing, for I know everything. I know more than you do about how you perceive my treatment of you.”

    In both your article and your responses to comments, you are trying to justify the rude, crude, disrespectful, deceitful, angry, vicious, malicious treatment of women – and children – in the most tender time of their lives. The depiction of medical treatment as rape is not the problem. Your attitude IS the problem. And I am not trying to say that it is yours alone, for if it was, only your clients would be complaining, but it is a systemwide problem. And the prevailing obstetric attitude and practices are a HUGE problem for parents and children.

    Birth is supposed to be a joyous time. Birth is not supposed to be on a timetable. Birth is not supposed to be in a hospital under bright lights with dozens of strangers’ eyes peering at a woman who is strapped down to a table, attached to IV lines, with her legs wide open and vulnerable to intrusive procedures. Birth is not a disease. Birth is not a medical procedure, to be quite frank.

    Birth is supposed to be a private, peaceful time when a woman can feel more pleasure than she has ever felt in her life – after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis that impregnated her… only isn’t it much larger and in motion? Nature seems to agree that both mother and child should have a pleasant journey, complete with their own personal doses of oxytocin – not manmade Pitocin, but nature’s own oxytocin.

    If a woman was not frightened to death by the fear of the doctors, nurses, society… she would simply lie down in a soft, warm, comfortable, probably dark place, and let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal and up to her breasts and they would lie undisturbed until both were ready to carry on.

    Are all the bells and whistles really necessary? Are our great doctors and magical hospitals with horizontal birthing tables, birth drugs and implements, premature cord clamping and cutting, yanking out of the placenta, high c-section rates – and also circumcisions – a few of the reasons why the US has such a high rate of maternal and infant deaths? Might we have gotten it all wrong?

    Amy Tuteur, someone who was part of the solution would say, “I am SO sorry you were treated like that by one of my own fellow MDs.” And then you would do something to end this type of abuse, not defend it and rationalize it away. Face it, the medical profession is abusive to its own med students and then they pass on the abuse to patients; I have heard this complaint from several MDs. Have you ever heard of Operation Paperclip? Hundreds of Nazi doctors and scientists were imported into the US after WWII. They taught at med schools. And they did NOT teach kindness, gentleness and compassion. They taught callous disregard for the patient… much as they practiced in the concentration camps. Be part of the solution, Amy. We need you to have a “Scrooge moment” and turn around and do just that – become an advocate for mothers and children. Thanking you in advance.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      How would you know the intent of obstetricians? How many have you interviewed in depth on the subject? I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess: zero! You just make it up as you go along.

      Nazis? You sound like a fool.

      • AgainstMedicalRape

        “And we do not determine whether a crime has occurred by referencing the
        feelings of the victim. The feelings of the victim matter not at all;
        what matters are the “feelings” of the perpetrator. We a name for the
        perpetrator’s feelings: intent.”

        Could you kindly enlighten us on how we can empirically measure the perpetrator’s feelings, whether it is medical rape or traditional rape, seeing as this is the basis for defining rape, as per your own argument?

        How can we prove that OBGYNs do not have an “intention” to enter the field because it allows them access to sexual power over women?

        • Bombshellrisa

          That is seriously sick thinking, considering that most OBs are women. I guess we should question the motives of female urologists too.

          • Samantha06

            VERY sick thinking indeed!

          • Guest

            Women have urinary systems as well…there are a large number of urologists who specialize in the female system. They aren’t just (forgive me, as this is a known nickname) Dick Doctors.

          • Medwife

            Male and female GI doctors. Dermatologists look at naughty bits, too.

            I say anyone who has a job involving the human body gets put on the list. LOOKING UNDER PEOPLE’S CLOTHES IS DIRTY.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        Well, Amy, I actually have interviewed in depth an Ob/Gyn who said he didn’t like doing circumcisions but he did them because if he didn’t, someone else would get the money. And have met many other doctors who are in agreement that the system is broken; it seems too often to serve the needs of doctors and hospitals but not patients. I have also spoken to and heard stories of mothers who asked for no episiotomies and were then “punished” with cutting that did not heal in over a year – and when they went for help, no other MD would touch the case. I have also been treated disrespectfully myself. And I was circumcised – WASP female in Kansas in the 1950s. Did you know about that chapter of American medicine? Most don’t. But after I wrote my book, I heard from several women who told me similar stories.

        Nazis? It’s well documented that many Nazi doctors and scientists came over from Germany after WWII. It’s best to do your research before calling someone who has done her research a “fool”. Good book: “Operation Paperclip” by Jacobsen.

        And from the NYTimes:
        Declassified Papers Show U.S. Recruited Ex-Nazis

        By SAM ROBERTS, Published: December 11, 2010
        “After World War II, American counterintelligence recruited former Gestapo officers, SS veterans and Nazi collaborators to an even greater extent than had been previously disclosed and helped many of them avoid prosecution or looked the other way when they escaped, according to thousands of newly declassified documents.”

        The CIA was especially interested in the mind control experiments which began in Germany and morphed into our own MK Ultra… This is all very interesting information, Amy. Might want to check it out. Might shed some light on why med school and especially residency are so painful for so many MDs.

        Kerth Barker in “Cannibalism…” says that the purpose of MK Ultra was to make Satanic Ritual Abuse into a science… Yes, all here in our dear country. Kerth’s nanny was brought to the US under Operation Paperclip and was trained by the CIA to teach children how to “service” adults. Congressional hearings were held on MK Ultra… and the project just changed names.

        I became interested in the modern medical birthing method when my mother would get a far off look in her eyes and say, “They cut me.” When talking to new mothers who were not able to speak of their births without weeping, then I realized the cruelty went even deeper than I thought.

        Honey, you might have lived a very sheltered life and can’t even imagine what we are all talking about here as medical abuse. On the other hand, you might be part of the group that thinks that cutting on people is “nothing” and that a patient (POS, right?) should just lie down and take whatever you dish out – so you can sell body parts – foreskins, placentas, etc – to tissue marketing companies. I don’t know you. I don’t know how in touch you are with your humanity – but in your article and comments it sure doesn’t sound as if you are in touch with the kinder, gentler part of yourself.

        One thing Nazi doctors learned was that “power-over” and trauma facilitate mind control. In fact, some use the term “trauma-based mind control”. Most MDs are surely unaware of the underlying political purpose of trauma, but they have been taught – and amazingly many of them bought it – that “babies don’t feel pain” and “the cervix does not feel pain” and other nonsense, and they regurgitate that nonsense to their patients who are expressing excruciating pain. Med school training, cruel as it is, disconnects MDs from their basic human compassion and allows them to think of a human as just a slab of meat… and to disregard anything a patient might say, as you are doing here.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Hey, Patricia? How many family members did you lose in Holocaust? I’m guessing none. I lost several. And you know what? They didn’t die so they they could be used for you to make nonsensical comparisons.

          So….fuck off with your bullshit.

          And the only one who is minimizing pain here is YOU. YOU are the one saying that the pain of childbirth doesn’t exist and is all in your head. You are the one thinking of a woman as a slab of meat. The doctors on this thread want adequate pain relief for their patients.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I would think you would be especially concerned that the CIA imported Nazi MDs into the USA “under the wire”. What is nonsensical about what I wrote? Thanks for clarifying.

        • Dr Kitty

          Oh FFS.
          Patricia, medical schools teach something called professional detachment.

          This enables doctors to deal with sick and dying people day in, day out and not be emotionally crippled by their pain.

          You have no clue what it is like to have someone describe, in depth, their childhood sexual abuse, and then be able to deal with someone’s ingrown toenail five minutes later, before going out to visit a palliative patient with days to live.

          None of those people are “slabs of meat” to me, but I could not function as their doctor, or indeed as a fully functioning human being, if I felt the same way about them as I feel about my friends and family.

          It isn’t that I don’t care about them, or that I don’t feel compassion for them, I do, but I cannot allow those feelings to overwhelm me.

          I mean, obviously your views about medicine are pretty left field, with a whole lot of conspiracy theory in the mix, but you should know you are wrong about that. Really, really wrong.

          That is not disregarding you, it is vehemently disagreeing with you, just to be clear.

        • Samantha06

          Wow. A mixture of out- in- left-field, out of touch with reality, condescension, psychosis, conspiracy theory, etc, etc, etc…. it must be very exhausting to be you..

      • AgainstMedicalRape

        “How would *you* know the intent of obstetricians” yourself?

        I am redirecting your question – and thesis of your article here – back to you as you have yet to answer it.

        Do you have some scientifically-validated ability to determine intent better than Patricia, I, and others?

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          In other words, you have no way of knowing the intent of obstetricians, yet your entire argument rests on knowing the intent of obstetricians. Thank you for admitting that.

          Not that I’m surprised; I’m well aware that you substitute your personal beliefs for actual evidence. You can do that to your heart’s content, but, of course, you shouldn’t expect anyone else to take you seriously.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            This is exactly the dodgy “answer” I was expecting.

            You, the one who proudly declares “No, thanks. I prefer to get [sic] my scientific information from the scientific literature, not propaganda” yourself have no scientific method or literature to present to us – when we request it – to back up the propaganda in your authoritarian article that unscientifically concludes that “birth rape is not for real”.

            The fact that you fail to answer my question tells us that you have no adequate answer. You have no scientific justification to back up your claims, despite presenting yourself as someone who will not consider information seriously unless it is from the scientific process.

            You meagerly attempted to throw the question back on me by claiming that I do not have any scientific support for my belief that someone selecting a career knowing that her actions will leave women feeling raped is indicative of rapist mentality. However, unlike you, I never stated that I refused to take information seriously if it does not come from science – because I know that there is too much that science cannot currently measure.

            Most immediately, your argument is flawed, because OBGYNs have been convicted of rape, and thus medical rape does exist, even though the “intent” of OBGYNs cannot be proven – by me, you, or anyone else:
            http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/second-alleged-victim-comes-forward-ob-gyn-rape-ca/nbWH5/
            http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/11/doctor_accused_of_using_painki.html
            http://www.wcnc.com/story/news/crime/2014/07/04/11131786/

            How absurd that you agree so much with my argument against you that you plagiarize off it, by tossing it back at me – only that it does not make sense because, unlike you, I do not refuse to consider another opinion because it is not based on science.

            If you are to be consistent, you cannot conveniently reject forms of information from others because they are not based on science, while at the same time, dish out your own information that is not based on science!

            And if your argument is that rape can only be deemed rape when the “intent” is about power and rape, and if you believe that information should only be taken seriously when it comes from science, then because there is no scientific way to determine the “intent” of any rapist – medical or not – and because you only accept information that is derived from science, then nobody can be deemed a rapist.

            Hence, as per your sadistic argument, it is not just “birth rape” that is “not for real” – it is “all rape that is not for real”.

            And do you see how sick and inconsistent your thinking has become?

            And I end with a few more of your recent quotes that demonstrate hypocrisy along the same vein:

            1) “You still haven’t explained how you supposedly know the intent of obstetricians. You can believe whatever you want, but it’s going to take some actual evidence to convince others.”

            [Why is it hypocritical? Read your whole article here!]

            2) “Oh, you mean like the way that you make $$$ convincing women they’ve been birth raped?”

            [Why is it hypocritical? Because you did not provide any scientific evidence that her “intent” is to convince women that they’ve been birth raped, even though you declare that you do not take information seriously unless it comes from such methodology.]

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No, it’s not a dodgy answer. If you want to claim that obstetricians intend to rape YOU have to PROVE that is their intent. I don’t have to do anything.

            Perhaps you haven’t heard of the principle “innocent until proven guilty,” or perhaps you think you are qualified to be judge, jury and executioner.

            So far you’ve offered us nothing but your own opinion based on vanishingly small experience. That’s why no one is taking you seriously.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I find it concerning that an educated doctor would respond to a comment that she does not appear to have read.

            You say that I’ve offered nothing but my own opinion when I offered explicit examples of obstetricians who were actually tried and convicted of rape.

            How was this determined? Because the judges said so based on the evidence. They were innocent until they were proved guilty.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I would like to add that it appears to be *you* who believes she is qualified to be a judge, jury, and executioner.

            Because you decided that these convicted rapist OBGYNs should not have been deemed rapists by the judges, which allows you to write this article that medical rape is not for real.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            You are a fool. No one is saying that a doctor can’t be a rapist- the articles you posted are clearly cases of rape.

            What you are saying is that *all* OB/GYNs have a “rapist mentality” and go into that field so they can rape. Which is absurd.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            1) “No one is saying that a doctor can’t be a rapist- the articles you posted are clearly cases of rape.”

            In fact, if you read the current article to which you are commenting under, the doctor asserts that medical rape – in this case – birth rape is “not real”. If something is “not real”, then it simply does not exist.

            2) “What you are saying is that *all* OB/GYNs have a “rapist mentality” and go into that field so they can rape. Which is absurd.”

            Yes, I stand by my personal belief that you quoted. I list the various sources of evidence that formed this belief.

            Unfortunately, just like the doctor, you have not read my links that even form my beliefs, but still make a judgement on my beliefs.

            As shown in item 7, studies suggest that 90% of medical students perform unconsented pelvic exams on anesthetized patients. This is particularly true for male medical students, and one of their “intentions” is that they suspect the female patients would have refused if given consent.

            I have spoken with many friends and family on this subject, and most people describe it as “gang rape”. I should think 90% is a sufficient representation of the field.

          • Bombshellrisa

            90% of students-how many of that 90% are women?

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            Not all rapes are perpetrated by men on women, and not all rapes occur in the back alley.

          • Bombshellrisa

            So a field that is by far dominated by women is a breeding ground for rapists who want to rape other women? Don’t you lecture me about sexual assault or abuse, I am a survivor who suffered in silence as a child. I don’t enjoy pelvic exams, but I can separate what happened to me as a child from what a doctor does as part of their job. Midwives learn pelvic exams as part of their training, CNMs act as women’s health providers. This is a field that is also woman dominated, would you have everyone believe that these women have a wish to violate other women? There are plenty of women on this board who have suffered sexual abuse or assault who don’t agree with your strange take on medicine and a conspiracy to commit rape by OBs.

          • Guest

            Excellent point, BSR. AMR, I assume that you are railing against the rampant rape culture existing among midwives who attend home births as well?

          • Samantha06

            One of the MD’s in your links raped a woman who was at his house for a business deal. How is this “medical rape”? Just because he was a doctor? That’s ridiculous.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            Just do a simple and lazy Google search to find more examples. Here are a few:

            (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-levy-class-action-20131101,0,5002564.story)

            (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297868/Defiled-spy-watch-GP-Victims-doctor-used-James-Bond-style-camera-film-intimate-exams-hundreds-patients-tell-violated-trust.html)

            (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2361957/New-York-Presbyterian-gynecologist-sued-performing-oral-sex-patients-reports-sexual-assault-piling-EIGHT–calls-pouring-in.html)

            (http://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2013/04/09/toronto_doctor_accused_of_performing_unnecessary_pelvic_exams_on_teen.html)

            I think these articles show how much stigma there is
            to call out a doctor-rapist. Rape victims already have a difficult time
            reporting traditional rapists. In one article, it took the
            first patient *20 years* to finally come out with a complaint. And when
            she did, 19 other patients quickly followed suit. In another article,
            the doctor had as many as 9,000 victims!

          • Samantha06

            And it’s unfortunate that this happens. People who commit crimes, no matter who they are, should be held accountable. However, you generalize all OB/GYN’s as having a “rapist mentality” which is totally insane. I certainly don’t consider the OB/GYNs I work with to have “rapist mentalities” in any way, shape or form. I don’t consider enjoying helping women have their babies, participating in the miracle of birth, laughing and crying with new parents and sharing in their joy or tragedies whichever the case may be, to be “rape” in any way, shape or form. And I think most sane people would agree with me.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You still don’t get it. You don’t prove a point by telling people to Google it. YOU have to ASSEMBLE the evidence; YOU have to offer the appropriate quotes; and YOU have to construct an argument.

            Your tactic are classic; we see this all the time here. People like you parachute in, offer their opinion presuming that is enough, and then when you are informed that isn’t enough, airily declaring that the rest of us can use Google to find sources to prove your argument.

            No doubt you are impressed with yourself, but you’ve convinced no one of anything beyond the fact that you don’t know how to construct a logical argument.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I am sorry to say, but your article here does none of what you lecture me to do to construct a logical argument.

            Your main justification that birth rape is “not for real” can be most succinctly described in your sentences:

            “The feelings of the victim matter not at all; what matters are the “feelings” of the perpetrator. We [sic] a name for the perpetrator’s feelings: intent… Intent is absolutely critical to determining whether a crime has been committed and what type of crime has been committed.”

            While you present your argument logically, you do not assemble evidence, you do not provide us with appropriate quotes, and you do not even link to any scientific study or literature* that supports your own conclusion that OBGYN intent is not about power.

            I, on the other hand, at least provided this criteria** in my comment that contained 7 items – with links to opinions and information outside of my own, including quotes, and my own interpretations – and I directed the attention mostly to the last article and quotes.

            Most importantly, I also provided you with several links to cases where OBGYNs were tried and convicted of rape. Hence, concluding your article here as factually incorrect, and demonstrating that rape during medicine “is for real”.

            * You have still yet to show us a single piece of
            scientific literature that we have asked for a few times already that
            OBGYNs do not have an intent for power and rape. By not providing us
            with that scientific evidence, you demonstrate that you did not get your
            information for your argument via science at all – you get it from your
            personal wishes. And this goes against your own reasons for not finding other arguments convincing because they were not inclusive of scientific literature.

            ** As a doctoral student in computer science, I will not have the time to publish an award-winning book for you. And even if I did, I still do not think you would read it seeing as you do not read my comments before responding.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I also want to add that it is not just your article – but even your comments – where you present arguments, without providing the very things that you listed to me as being necessary for a logical argument. Here is one such argument:


            You really need to educate yourself about the racist, sexist origins of the claim that childbirth is not inherently painful:

            http://www.skepticalob.com/200

            For you to tell me “You still don’t get it. You don’t prove a point by telling people to Google it.” is profoundly hypocritical.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I first suggest you sincerely read comments from women who experienced medical rape symptoms in your own blog here. Secondly, I will list some additional references. I am especially intrigued in why one should argue that item 7 should not be considered a form of rape?

            1) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/755300

            Many American physicians perform degrading and humiliating bimanual exams on teenagers and women. However, the “use of pelvic examination for [ovarian cancer screening, other gynecological cancer screening, as a requirement for starting oral or hormonal contraception, to screen for sexually transmitted infections, or as part of a well-women exam] is not supported by scientific evidence and is not recommended by any US organization.”

            2) http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/may/22/genderissues.publichealth

            “If somebody suggested in 2003 we [should] introduce cervical cytology [pap smears], no randomised trial would ever show it was worthwhile,” admits Dr Anne Szarewski, clinical consultant for Cancer Research UK. “However, it is impossible to turn the clock back. We haven’t got anything to replace it with.”

            3) “Pelvic Exam Prerequisite to Hormonal Contraceptives: Unjustified Infringement on Constitutional Rights, Governmental Coercion, and Bad Public Policy”

            Written by a Harvard lawyer. Her surveys reveal that most women (75%) find pelvic exams humiliating. As her article states, there is no scientific evidence that a doctor fingering a patient can help them determine whether the patient will have an adverse reaction to BC. Holding hostage items that women need for their health, and then duping (not adequately consenting) them into submitting to penetration in the sexual organs when the majority find it humiliating is indicative of a rapist mentality.

            4) “Male Practice: How Doctors Manipulate Women” by Robert S. Mendelsohn.

            The author discusses unnecessary hysterectomies, surgeries, and pap-smears.
            5) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/27364.php

            This article reveals that there have been alternatives to the outdated pap smear for years, such as the CSA blood test and vaginal swabs. Women can complete these assault-free exams in the privacy and dignity of their own homes. In my opinion, practitioners not disclosing alternatives (to pelvic exams) is lacking consent and an indication of dishonesty.

            6) “Women and Doctors” by John M. Smith

            The author was a gynecologist who quit his job and leaked some of the seedy history behind OBGYN. He provides statistics on the numbers of women who filed complaints of sexual assault by their gynecologists. He also explains why he believes men created gynecology, based off his own confessions and observations of other gynecologists.

            7) http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2010/8/30/medical-student-wont-perform-pelvic-exams-on-anesthetized-pa.html#sthash.vcCCOjK5.dpbs

            As the article shows, medical students perform invasive genital exams on patients under anesthesia. In fact, a 1995 study found that 90% of medical students did so to anesthetized patients (http://www.ourbodiesourblog.org/blog/2012/09/conversations-we-shouldnt-still-be-having-pelvic-exams-under-anesthesia).

            At one point, the article questions: “Why are male students more likely to perform non-consensual pelvic exams?” and answers “The medical community assumes that women will be less likely to allow male students practice on them if asked.”

            I think this sums up the repulsive mentality and rapist fraternity behind gynecology: It makes it so much worse that they suspect these patients would have refused.

        • LibrarianSarah

          Can you Mrs. Good prove that you are not a witch? Sorry Charlie but the burden of proof is on you not Dr. Amy. That whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing is kind of a bummer isn’t it? It would be so much easier to just lob accusations at people and expect them to prove themselves innocent.

        • KarenJJ

          I’ve found following this conversation to be really disturbing. I would suggest that the great majority of women are happy with their medical care during childbirth (that is certainly the case amongst myself and my friends and family, and also backed up by patient satisfaction surveys). I certainly don’t need to know my obgyns inner-most thoughts about genitalia but the fact that I was treated professionally and courteously suggests to me that there’s nothing untoward and my outcomes were good.

          What you are suggesting is a smear campaign of people that are doing a good job and an important one at that. Women and children deserve the best medical care, not fear-mongering , not smears about genitalia and further hang-ups over sexual body parts. There have been a few obgyns that have been discovered to have been disturbed individuals and have lost licenses or been jailed for it. In fact most of my exams that have happened in a medical situation have had other witnesses (my husband, another staff member, a midwife etc) – this is much better oversight than what women get at home.

          • Samantha06

            Yes, this exactly. What is also disturbing is the complete lack of gratitude or appreciation for the medical care available to us that so many women in impoverished countries do not have access to.

    • Bombshellrisa

      The intent is to gather information about a patient through examination and assist as needed. These long winded monologues about perceived power struggles are getting old this morning. ETA: “street assault” sexual assault happens at the hands of family and known associates of the victim more often than during a “street assault”.

      • Samantha06

        Good grief.. all the freaks are trolling today..

        • Bombshellrisa

          I think there is one and a couple sock puppets-they are all on the same subject and agreeing with each other

          • Samantha06

            That’s for sure!! They’re instigators.. probably best for all of us (and our sanity!) not to waste time or energy responding to them..

          • Bombshellrisa

            Isn’t it interesting that no matter how eloquent and profound they think they are being, they are just repeating what every troll parachutes in and says? For being so “researched” and “educated” about all things birth you would think they could sound, well, researched and educated?

          • Samantha06

            Totally! In their attempts to sound researched and educated, the end up sounding unreasonable and psychotic.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      “Birth is supposed to be a private, peaceful time when a woman can feel more pleasure than she has ever felt in her life – after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis that impregnated her… only isn’t it much larger and in motion? Nature seems to agree that both mother and child should have a pleasant journey, complete with their own personal doses of oxytocin – not manmade Pitocin, but nature’s own oxytocin.

      If a woman was not frightened to death by the fear of the doctors, nurses, society… she would simply lie down in a soft, warm, comfortable, probably dark place, and let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal and up to her breasts and they would lie undisturbed until both were ready to carry on.”

      I just had to quote this in case the poster does a dirty delete. I’ve actually got tears of laughter in my eyes.

      Ladies- giving birth the JUST LIKE having sex. If it hurts, you’re doing it WRONG.

      • Kate

        Bwahaha…damn. If it hadn’t been for that pesky pre-eclampsia, I could have totally had this awesome orgasmic birth in a cave somewhere.

      • anh

        CONCUR!! that was the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life. I wasn’t scared in labor. I was surrounded by my amazing midwife and lovely doula and wonderful husband….and it was the worst GD pain in my entire life. HORRIBLE. By her logic, do people who live in tropical paradises get root canals without pain relief because they are so warm and comfy and blissed out?

        • Bombshellrisa

          Root canals are interventions and not natural.

        • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

          Watch the movie “Birth As We Know It” – it is very beautiful and might help you understand why you experienced pain rather than pleasure… and might help you have a lovely birth in the future. Best wishes. As a matter of fact, I have had quite a bit of dental work done without pain-killers, including an extraction… problem was, it scared the dentist more than it did me.

          • Bombshellrisa

            So how many births have you had where you experienced pleasure instead of pain? Some women really don’t experience pain during labor or delivery, it’s just how they experience it. I didn’t with my second, I had no idea that I was having contractions or was dilating. But I was very fearful: he was five weeks early. It wasn’t until he was delivered and entertaining the NICU nurse with his hat removing techniques that I relaxed. But pleasure? Suggesting pleasure can be felt instead of pain is wrong and misleading,

          • anh

            Wow, that is profoundly condescending. Check yourself. Your comments are ignorant, misogynistic, and practically farcical.

            My labor hurt because it hurt. Labor hurts like hell for some women and it’s cake for others. This is due to genetics or other physical factors, not their mental state. Pain in labor just is, it’s not because someone doesn’t embrace whatever you’re selling here.

            If you have a crazy high pain threshold, bully for you! My fil can eat ghost peppers. It’s just a cool genetic gift you got. You’re not morally superior or spiritually enlightened.

            My daughter’s birth WAS incredible…post epidural that is!

          • LibrarianSarah

            This is what happens kids when you get most of your information by watching movies instead of reading l the scientific literature. You make an ass out of yourself on the Internet infront of people who know a lot more than you about a given subject. Here’s an expert tip Patricia, just because a movie is a “documentary” doesn’t mean the information in it is any more accurate than “Weekend at Berneys.”

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        That’s right, doc. Women have been taught to fear birth. In fear, your tense up. In a hospital in front of a crowd of doctors and nurses, you might tense up. What happens then? You surely can’t have a simple, natural, pleasant experience.

        Ever had someone stand over you as you are trying to have sex… not sure if you are a man or woman… but imagine you are a man… with a stopwatch, taking notes and describing your progress in getting it up to someone who is waiting to see if you can? Ever tried to have a bowel movement with someone peering into your behind, measuring your progress and threatening to cut you open “to facilitate your movement” if you don’t hurry up?

        Watch “Birth As We Know It” – the movie. Might give you quite a different idea about birth. I have also seen a movie of a woman in an “undeveloped country” who was fishing at one moment, then stopped, squatted down in the water, had her baby, washed him off, put him in the carrier on her back, and carried on fishing. The “Abrahamic tradition” has its drawbacks: the “curse of birth” and “circumcision”. And now the medical field has become a perpetrator of old religious myths and superstitions. Do some research. Some call it “ecstatic birth”… others call it “orgiastic”… Also, check out “Lotus birth” – there’s no need to yank a placenta out of a baby.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          That’s right, doc. Women have been taught to fear birth. In fear, your tense up. In a hospital in front of a crowd of doctors and nurses, you might tense up. What happens then? You surely can’t have a simple, natural, pleasant experience.

          So why didn’t the women of old testament bible times have pleasant experiences. There were no doctor or nurses. Just them and their midwives.

          And it was still considered to be punishment from God.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Oh, I have seen some pretty scary midwives too… shouting at the mother, “PUSH! PUSH!” … really conducive to letting go of the baby load. And if I was the baby waiting to emerge, I’m not sure I’d want to come out to that kind of audience… or the medical one.

            If your god commands you to propagate the species and then punishes you for doing so – what’s up with that??? Good book: “What Rough Beast?”

            I hear that the Christian God is not cruel. “God is Love.” You know? Get in synch with Love and you will be in synch with nature and in synch with your baby.

            Pain means there is resistance. The fear of childbirth is taught and has been taught for many generations – 4000 years, did you say?

            “Evidence-based” births may be intense but not “punishing”. Another good thing to read up on is how they do births in Scandinavian countries. Very simple. Very little interference – before or during or after. But then, maybe they’re not as “dutifully religious” and therefore as fearful as we are.

          • Bombshellrisa

            There is very little interference before during or after a birth unless it’s needed. Every doctor, midwife and nurse here will tell you a dream delivery is one where there is nothing to be done but catch the baby and say congrats.

          • Samantha06

            Exactly right!

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            How many times is the cervix “checked” in a medical or midwife birth? To me, checking the dilation is intrusive. How can anyone truly relax when someone is constantly checking their cervix? Maybe someone who loves for their vagina to be probed and on display? I think I’m on the wrong planet.

          • Elizabeth A

            Not that I think it will help to give you facts, but:

            I showed up at the hospital in labor with my son at 11 p.m. in the evening, and finally gave birth to him around 3:30 the next day. That’s about 16.5 hours in the hospital.

            My cervix was checked twice. Once shortly after I arrived, and once around 10 a.m., when I told the nurse that I felt pushy, and I wanted someone to tell me whether I was completely dilated. Twice in 16 hours is not “constant.”

            I don’t think you have a relationship with reality in this conversation.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Planet Patricia is a place of great contradictions: The planet where women experience incomparable sexual pleasure from their child passing through their vagina (after all, it’s the same tissue that the penis went in to impregnate them!), but who are are completely undone by a quick vaginal check for cervical progress.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Because they understand that pushing against a cervix that isn’t fully dilated is not a good idea. Instead of making a big deal about an exam, they have the maturity and critical thinking skills to realize that it’s something that will happen during labor. I don’t understand why you think it’s this big production where it’s all about a close up of someone’s vagina. It’s a quick exam, not a porn movie.

          • Samantha06

            We only check the cervix when it is absolutely necessary. When a patient comes to L&D for evaluation, we do a baseline exam. Most women want to know their cervical status and we are very cognizant of their comfort and privacy. Many times patients ask to be checked more frequently, but we don’t do it if it’s not necessary.

          • Mishimoo

            Speaking as one of those patients, knowing what my cervix is doing helps me feel like I’m getting somewhere and that I have more control over the situation because I know what’s going on instead of guessing or hoping that everything is progressing as it should.

          • Samantha06

            Exactly! NCBers act like vag exams are horrible things to be avoided at all costs. It’s very encouraging for a woman in labor hearing she is making progress.

          • Kate

            I actually ASKED for cervical checks during labor a couple times for this reason.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            “Evidence-based” births may be intense but not “punishing”.

            So you are claiming that the writers of the bible were lying when they said the pain was so severe that it should be considered punishment from God?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            The bible has been heavily edited and in the direction of political control. See “The Book of J” – a lovely original history of the Jewish people that was ‘sexed up’ and ‘violenced up’ by a conquering tribe. In “The Book of J” there is no “circumcision covenant” or “mass circumcision and slaughter” in the story of the “rape” of Dinah. It is a much kinder, gentler history than we are currently taught.

          • Dr Kitty

            Because the things Bronze Age nomadic tribes are known for is being kind and gentle…

        • Bombshellrisa

          I watched a movie about women giving birth at home, with traditional birth attendants and only those they wanted to have attend the birth. No medicine, no interventions. The babies didn’t always make it and the women suffered terrible damage which they traveled miles to have fixed. The movie is called “A Walk to Beautiful”.

          • anh

            I bet those women carried their babies in exquisitely woven wraps on their backs when they walked hundreds of miles in desperation to get the medical treatment to reverse a condition which rendered them societal outcasts…you know, just as nature intended

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Beautiful! More, more!

          Seriously, though, you are probably the one that needs to do more “research.” Maybe your research will show you that the cervix is not a sphincter that can be opened or closed based on “tensing up”. It’s gonna open to let that baby out no matter what you do.

          And no, I’ve never had sex with someone standing over me, nor a BM with someone looking up my butt. Have you?

          What I did have was a lovely birth in a hospital. Just a few people there, but no problem. Shockingly, my cervix didn’t tense up to hold my baby in.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I am not a doctor or nurse, but I have heard of the cervix not progressing as the medical personnel deem proper. Is that not due to tension? Got proof it’s because a mother is not performing correctly?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Proper? How about not dilating enough or at a rate that will facilitate birth? It’s not about performance.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            No, it’s not due to tension. Any other dozen of things, but not “tension.”

            I love it when uneducated fools come onto these threads and try to “educate” professionals about their job.

          • Samantha06

            “Performing”???? Seriously???? You think it’s about a mother’s performance???
            Well, there you have it folks… straight from the horse’s mouth… “step right up for the Greatest Show on Earth”…

            There really isn’t much more to say, is there.

          • VeritasLiberat

            In my case, the cervix wasn’t dilating because the baby’s head was not pushing against it. That’s what dilates the cervix. Baby’s head was stuck between pelvic bones and could not turn into the proper position to come down enough to push on the cervix. It had nothing to do with my level of relaxation. I could have even been stoned off my ass and nothing would have changed.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett ” Got proof it’s because a mother is not performing correctly?”

            You’re the one who implied it was: “Your health is a very important factor in the birth of your baby. Also, you need to come to peace with any ideas that might engender fear. There’s another way to see it – and to do it. Fear works against the process. When you can breathe and relax every fiber of your body, knowing that you are in good hands – the hands of nature or God, if you think in those terms… that will be most conducive to the baby’s progress. ”

            These are your words, Patricia, posted earlier today.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I am a hypnotherapist and very aware of the effects of fear/tension/anxiety and mental suggestion on the mind – and body. Fear is the source of all illness… that’s why they call it “dis-ease”. Spontaneous remissions happen when people let go of fear.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “I am a hypnotherapist and very aware of the effects of fear/tension/anxiety and mental suggestion on the mind”

            It’s no wonder why you have an exaggerated sense of your knowledge and your own importance.

          • Dr Kitty

            Really?
            How dies fear cause congenital heart defects?
            Ebola?
            AIDS?
            Malaria?

            How does fear cause Tay-Sachs or Epidermolysis Bullosa or Cystic Fibrosis?

            How the *expletive deleted* would hypnotism cure any of those?

            You sell snake oil.
            Just because you’re dumb enough to think it works yourself doesn’t make that better.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            You know, Kitty, I am not going to claim that hypnotherapy “cures” anything. That’s silly. But relaxing and reflecting certainly give insight into what causes us to be born into the life we choose. And that’s WAY beyond the scope of this discussion. However, if you would like to read about it, there are some good books out there. My first was “Past Lives Therapy” by Netherton. There are many others now. Probably most people here would prefer to read something by an MD, so Dr Brian Weiss is a good one… he has written several books about his work. I don’t really like his approach because he requires his patients to relive the trauma, whereas I found that to simply see what happened that was traumatic and to know that here, now, they are safe, seemed to suffice.

            My interest was piqued during a session with a psychologist from the university, when she saw herself with her mother and her grandmother in a ball of light. She seemed to be happy, but she wept and I asked her why. She said it was because they both had died years before. From there, she told of being on a train with a lot of people, going through a forest… and they stopped the train in the middle of the forest, opened the sliding doors and pushed her brother out – because he was in a wheelchair and would not be able to work at the concentration camp. That piqued my interest and I went directly to the library and read Netherton’s book.

            I don’t expect anyone here to believe or understand what I know about life, because my interests have been very different from yours and theirs. But if someone really wants to heal and be healed, they have to go all the way to the level of mind and thought. As long as angry, sad, mean, unforgiving, etc thoughts are held – less than loving feelings are held – the body will not be as healthy as it could be. It’s that simple. And once people see for themselves where their physical problems came from – and understand what the body is trying to tell them – feel safe in the present – they can let go of the past trauma that has been running their lives and the body reacts with health.

            “Until the unconscious is made conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it ‘fate’.” – Carl Jung

          • Samantha06

            “As long as angry, sad, mean, unforgiving, etc thoughts are held – less than loving feelings are held – the body will not be as healthy as it could be. It’s that simple.”

            But Patricia, you yourself have spoken very negatively of the medical community on this blog. You know the old saying, “Your talk life is your walk life”. Did you ever think that your negative perceptions of doctors and medicine are exacerbated by dwelling on thinking negatively and talking negatively about them? But then aren’t you making money doing hypno regression therapy with women who had bad experiences during childbirth? I guess that explains it..

          • Dr Kitty

            Got it.
            When you say “fear causes disease” what you actually mean is that you have a disease in this life because you did something bad in a past life.

            Which BTW is the ultimate in victim blaming, but also let’s you sell your nonsense.

            You’re not claiming to help people now, are you?
            You’re claiming that your “therapy” will heal their karma now, so that their next life will be better, right?

            It’s still nonsense, you’re still exploiting the weak and I think you need a different kind of therapy than the nonsense you offer.

          • Bombshellrisa

            This is much like the idea behind the book “you can heal your life”. Every disease, every symptom, every malady lists a bunch of thoughts and feelings the person is manifesting and lists a corresponding affirmation to repeat. The book claims thought patterns cause disease. It’s really victim blaming with a side of nutrition quackery and every kind of woo imaginable. I know you would find this sickening (or hilarious) but spinal problems are thought to be from “lack of faith in life” with no emotional support to guide you.

          • Dr Kitty

            Oh yes, of course, that makes much more sense than my mother’s genetic difficulty in processing homocysteine!

            Obviously!
            It was the lack of emotional support I got as an embryo that caused my vertebrae and neural tube to be wonky.
            D’uh!

            I don’t normally like to make fun of the intellectually impaired, but that is some dumb stuff, and I think pointing and laughing is the only sane response.

          • fiftyfifty1

            ” Fear is the source of all illness… that’s why they call it “dis-ease”. ”

            That was the favorite quote of my late uncle, the AIDS denier who died of his “dis-ease” after he decided to stop his highly effective anti-retroviral therapy and treat himself with yoga, meditation, herbs and positive thinking.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            So, who had been fearful, my MIL or my DH when he was born with cataracts?

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Apparently you are unaware that Grantly Dick-Read was a eugenicist who fabricated his racist, sexist claim that childbirth pain is caused by fear. You really are gullible, aren’t you?

        • Bombshellrisa

          Was it a drama or a documentary?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            “Birth As We Know It”? It’s a documentary. It is exquisitely beautiful. Tells the other side of the story. And it emphasizes that the birthing mother needs to resolve her fears around her own birth.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No, thanks. I prefer to ge my scientific information from the scientific literature, not propaganda films for lay people.

        • Box of Salt

          Patricia Robinett” “Also, check out “Lotus birth” – there’s no need to yank a placenta out of a baby.”

          Uh huh. Exactly where inside the baby is the placenta? Do you think about what you type, or do your fingers just move on their own?

          • Samantha06

            Maybe she thinks it comes out through the umbilical cord?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Haha… very funny goof. Thanks for catching it. How about this…

            There’s no need to cut the cord before it stops pulsing – other than $$$ – for the cord blood and placenta are sold on the human tissue market. But the baby doesn’t need his full ration of blood and oxygen because we can just take his very pure blood- and oxygen-rich placenta, sell it to the highest bidder, and put him in the NICU ($$$) where he can get blood transfusions – maybe from drug users who sell blood for cash – and he can live in an oxygen tent… more $$$ for everyone, except the insurance company and the parents.

            And back to the subject of yanking the placenta out of a mother… causes lots of problems… like hemorrhage. One woman had her entire uterus pulled out – by mistake of course – but the MD who did it said there might have been a fibroid tumor attached to the uterus. It took several doctors and nurses to put the woman back together. Jeez. And the MD who pulled it out – pulling and pulling, all the while the mother begging and yelling “STOP!” – that MD thought she’d really “saved the day”. Ah well, it’s just a woman’s uterus…

            That reminds me of another MD who used to brag to the women who worked in the pediatric emergency department that HER circumcisions NEVER went awry. They had to gently explain to her that two of her tiny patients had come in the night before for emergency services. Ah well. It’s just a baby’s foreskin…

          • Cobalt

            I wonder how much I could’ve gotten on the market for my last placenta? Granted, there wasn’t much oxygen in it, but there were lots of clots (blood concentrate!) and plenty of extra calcium.

          • Mishimoo

            I have a better idea! Wave it at a large bottle of water, then dilute the water to your preferred levels. Quantum homoeopathic placenta extract, only $37 per ounce.

          • Empliau

            Quantum sounds science-y. Therefore it should be sold by the milliliter. Also, $37/ml is even more profitable!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Oh, you mean like the way that you make $$$ convincing women they’ve been birth raped?

          • IndieThinker

            “You realize that you are simply regurgitating the sexist idea that pain is all in women’s heads, right?

            Welcome to the long line of misogynists who delight in blaming women for their own pain.”

            You use these words to criticize PR’s arguments, but then you claim one step worse – blaming women for their own feelings of feeling raped.

          • Bombshellrisa

            The difference is that pain childbirth is real. “Birth rape” is a term made up by NCB advocates who would prefer women suffer and die in childbirth than seek proper medical care.

          • yugaya

            “Birth rape” in most cases indicates that someone’s birth plan written on with unicorn dust paper with magical thinking pen got raped by reality.

          • Bombshellrisa

            It’s probably cause they didn’t get it notarized-how could the unicorn know for sure it was them who wrote it? And if you don’t do birth affirmations and you don’t have yoni cupcakes at your blessingway ceremony, you aren’t invested in the perfect birth anyway and you are begging to have the cascade of interventions.

          • Samantha06

            Oh and they MUST have a birth plan done up in one of those fancy scrap-booking binder things with glitter, and fancy writing… but then it got splashed with blood at the delivery and they cried rape..

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia,
            your comments are despicable, and illustrate your own ignorance.

            By the way, I donated my kids’ cord blood.

            If you choose to believe there’s a black market in that, go right ahead. I’m not buying what you sell.

          • realitycheque

            “where he can get blood transfusions – maybe from drug users who sell blood for cash”

            Have you ever been to a blood bank or donation centre before? They don’t just accept any old crack head who offers to donate blood.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            You are living in some sort of weird alternate reality. Come and live in the USA with the rest of us. It’s a much nicer place than wherever you are.

        • Something From Nothing

          You just compared a baby to a shit…
          Nice. You can’t make this shit up…

      • Bombshellrisa

        Somebody please screen cap this stuff!
        There must be something wrong with me-I was so grateful for the doctors, nurses and the safety of the resources in the hospital which wouldn’t be available in a cave.

        • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

          Everyone’s experience is different, Risa. I’m glad you had a good one in the hospital. Not all do, obviously.

          • Bombshellrisa

            How do you know what my experience was? My l&d nurse for my first sounded just like you and her insistence that fearing the process was what was causing the pain while ignoring my pleas and finally screams for pain medication was worse than what I felt at the hands of an abuser as a child. I have attended many home births as a primary midwife-why were those women screaming and crying if they had created an environment they felt comfortable giving birth in?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            It’s the mind that needs to feel safe. Pretty sheets and candles and such on the outside don’t go far when the mental-emotional expectation is that birth is painful… and that is the dominant paradigm – right? If the midwife has the expectation that birth is painful, you shouldn’t use her. The ancient “curse” that childbirth is painful is inaccurate. It actually says, “… in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children…” not “in pain”.

            I have a friend who used to walk 15 miles every day when she was pregnant… when it came time to give birth, her labor was 15 minutes. Something about being healthy and supple that works.

            I’ve also seen videos of women who were “raw foodists” and they too gave birth very easily. Our entire system is very strange and unnatural… have you ever thought about it?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You really need to educate yourself about the racist, sexist origins of the claim that childbirth is not inherently painful:

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2008/08/mother-is-factory.html

            By the way, could you point to anyone who supports your racist, sexist claim who doesn’t actually make money from it?

          • Amazed

            “By the way, could you point to anyone who supports your racist, sexist claim who doesn’t actually make money from it?”

            Err, Dr A… SHE probably makes money from it. She downright claimed the ability to help women get rid of the pain by getting rid of their fear.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I do not agree that childbirth is not inherently painful. But I do believe that studies have found that women experience pain less negatively in a home setting ["Home birth and hospital deliveries: a comparison of the perceived painfulness of parturition."]

          • Cobalt

            Unfortunately, the baby may experience life less overall.

          • Samantha06

            I don’t know about those studies so I can’t comment on them. I do know that most women understand the risks of home birth and choose hospital birth for safety reasons. Most are not overly concerned about pain as they know relief is readily available.

          • Box of Salt

            You’re blaming the victim again, Patricia Robinett.

          • Mishimoo

            I’m very supple – my skin is flexible, my joints have an amazing range of movement, I eat healthily, I exercise, and my labours have never been shorter than 23 hours despite being upright and moving around. Her 15 minute labour was simply luck, and considering the risks of precipitous labour, possibly very hard on the baby.

          • Cobalt

            Bull. I have friends who train young horses for a living. Working with a half ton prey animal not only requires quite a bit of supple athleticism (if you can’t move with the horse, he will move you without him, and if you can’t balance yourself you can injure the horse) but also the ability to control fear (horses, especially young and inexperienced horses, can panic just because you are afraid- these are herd prey animals). These women have a quiet softness, an ability to relax and project that relaxation, that can settle a thousand pounds of fight-or-flight instinct with a touch.

            They still had painful labors, some had cesareans, some had epidurals, some had episiotomy or tearing. That’s birth. The unnatural part is that they and their babies all lived.

          • Bombshellrisa

            “If the midwife has the expectation that birth is painful, you shouldn’t use her.” Why? If she is a real midwife and is attending you in a hospital, she isn’t going to lose her street cred if you need an epidural. Quacks, on the other hand, have everything to lose if you are screaming your head off and the warm bath/hypnobirthing/counter pressure isn’t doing it and you want to transfer to the hospital for some real help.

            The nutrition talk-I should have seen that one coming.

          • Elizabeth A

            Our system is strange and unnatural. Birth videos, for example, are completely unknown in nature, and people who share them tend to have had a relatively easy time.

            The women who were in enough pain to scream curse words at the tops of their lungs don’t generally put the footage on YouTube.

          • Samantha06

            And not all have positive home birth experiences, either.. obviously.

      • Kate

        Now that I think about it…if my baby is just able to “wiggle out” of my vagina, I should probably be really concerned about the condition of my pelvic floor.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Not just wiggle out, but then wiggle up to your breast! Super baby!

          • Kate

            So thinking positively and cave-birth will help me deliver a baby with the motor skills of a 6-12 month old? Awesome!

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            It’s just what babies do when they are born naturally… they crawl to the breast. Nature isn’t stupid. Horses and sheep jump and frolic soon after birth. Surely a human baby can at least find its mother’s breast… if given a chance to do so. But in the hospital, everything is on a timetable, hmm? “Get ‘em in… yank ‘em out… get ‘em out! Make way for the next one! Time is money! After all, this isn’t a hotel!”

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            You are a fool.

          • Cobalt

            Actually, newborn horses are terrible jumpers and frolickers. They fall over. A lot. What they can do is run, typically within an hour of birth. In the wild, nature kills 100% of those that can’t, and around 50% of those that can. The majority of a foal’s brain function at birth is directed at controlling the legs, which themselves account for most of the body.

            Humans, however, have arms and hands, and we use them to assist each other in birth, and to hold the baby and provide for its needs. We also have brains, which some of us use to try to get better outcomes for our babies than wild mares can achieve for theirs.

          • realitycheque

            The thought of a baby crawling out of a woman’s vagina and up her chest is actually pretty darn creepy.

          • Cobalt

            Mental image of a miniature Gollum.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Am I the only one thinking of an inchworm….

        • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

          That’s right, Kate. Your health is a very important factor in the birth of your baby. Also, you need to come to peace with any ideas that might engender fear. There’s another way to see it – and to do it. Fear works against the process. When you can breathe and relax every fiber of your body, knowing that you are in good hands – the hands of nature or God, if you think in those terms… that will be most conducive to the baby’s progress. Yes, all babies are superbabies until they are drugged or traumatized by fearful, overly ‘helpful’ birth attendants.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You realize that you are simply regurgitating the sexist idea that pain is all in women’s heads, right?

            Welcome to the long line of misogynists who delight in blaming women for their own pain.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Name-calling will get you nowhere, Amy. If anything, you are everything you accuse others of… I have been noticing that. And I didn’t say the pain was in their heads. That is a misinterpretation. Fear is in their heads and their bodies reflect the fear by tensing up and pain is a result of contracted muscles and organs.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You are regurgitating a racist, sexist claim that was made by Grantly Dick-Read, as part of the mansplainin’ that grounds the natural childbirth movement.

            You really need to educate yourself on the origins and evolution of the natural childbirth movement. I guarantee you will be surprised by what you find.

          • Elizabeth A

            pain is a result of contracted muscles and organs.

            This is the only part of your post above that makes logical sense – all the other parts are based on false premises.

            But look at what you wrote. Pain is a result of contracted muscles and organs. YES. Our bodies move babies from inside to outside via a process involving intense uterine contractions. This whole system of muscles that we don’t even usually use violently, involuntarily, tenses up. It usually works to get the baby out, but it also hurts.

          • Kate

            Ha. God, nature, what have you…gave me pre-eclampsia. The overly helpful birth attendants, or, as I like to call them, obstetricians, saved my life AND helped me deal with the fear.

          • Bombshellrisa

            “Overly helpful birth attendants”-lol. Yeah, all that education and training gets in the of nature (oh thank goodness!)

          • Karen in SC

            I was not afraid, nor did I take medication of any kind. I moved as I wanted. I felt quite safe.

            However, the contractions were agonizing.

            You are full of beans.

          • araikwao

            Gosh, what’s going on with the superbabies in Somalia then, where women have a 1 in 16 lifetime risk of dying in childbirth? Spoiler: it’s the combination of a lack of access to obstetric care (they die at the background mortality rate) and the perils of high parity.

          • realitycheque

            No, no. It’s all just fear, silly. These women are only dying because they don’t trust birth enough.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Oh, man! This is a loaded one.

            Were you aware that the Somalians practice FGM? Yes! A full 98% of the girls in Somalia are circumcised before the age of five. And they also infibulate, which means they sew the vagina shut and let it scar over, so they have to be cut open when giving birth – and the scar tissue can be so hard that doctors break their scalpels trying to open them up. The obstetricians there cry in frustration due to the “challenge”. Some women cannot even release menstrual blood, the remaining opening is so small. They also have to be cut open when they marry, so they can have sex. So you can’t really say it’s due to lack of obstetric care as much as the abusive practice of FGM – EXTREME FGM.

            Now, I lost my labia and clitoris and hood, but they didn’t sew me shut – thank God. But that cured me of wanting to have children. They don’t stop at labia, clitoris and hood in Somalia… they go all the way to “pencil hole” and their women die at a very high rate… from the circumcision… from sepsis… from infection… from childbirth… it’s a horror. But PLEASE don’t blame it on lack of obstetrical care. Even obstetricians cannot save these women when their bodies have been building layer after layer of toxic scar tissue for their entire lives.

            Are you aware that the US maternal birthrate is higher than 60 other countries? Please do a Google search for “maternal mortality in USA”.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricica Robinett, you goofed again!
            “Are you aware that the US maternal birthrate is higher than 60 other countries?”

            Please check for your sentences before you hit post to make sure they make sense. Google won’t help you.

          • Box of Salt

            And I should follow my own advice to Patricia. I’m sorry I mis-typed your name.

          • Karen in SC

            Yes, as I recently learned from my Emory U coursera long distance course, the US still is better by far than any developing country. The typical causes in the US are on the decline – PPH, rupture, etc. It’s the indirect causes like HEART disease, type I diabetes, obesity, etc that cause the US to be slightly higher (16 vs 8 per 100 000, if I recall correctly) For comparison, east Africa is around 500-600.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Wait, so you actually haven’t had children? And yet you have the gall to sit there and say that birth is not painful????

          • yugaya

            Her perception is that it does not hurt, especially if you pay her to teach you how to birth the right way. She’ll pro’lly throw in a horoscope reading as a bonus.

          • Samantha06

            She’s a hypno regression therapist.. or something like that..maybe she had children in a past life.

          • yugaya

            Or a brain that works.

          • Dr Kitty

            The maternal mortality in Somalia is compounded by FGM certainly, but that is not the root cause.

            Otherwise infibulated immigrants from the Horn of Africa would be dying in childbirth in large numbers in developed countries too.

            The reason infibulated Somalian, Eritrean and Ethiopian immigrants in the developed world have better outcomes than their compatriots back home is precisely because of better access to obstetric care.

            It’s almost as if you don’t think any of us have ever personally treated a woman who has suffered that form of FGM.

            Your argument doesn’t hold water.

          • fiftyfifty1

            ” and the scar tissue can be so hard that doctors break their scalpels trying to open them up”

            Oh please! I have cut many an episiotomy on an infibulated woman and their scar tissue is exactly the same texture as scar tissue on any other person–that is firmer than the original tissue but nothing that would break a scalpel! What, do you believe Somali people aren’t the same biologically as other people?

          • Samantha06

            Gee, you couldn’t be more patronizing and paternalistic if you tried..you sound just like Grantly Dick-Head, er.. Read.. how comforting.. Dr. Amy is spot on in her comment below.

          • yugaya

            ” knowing that you are in good hands – the hands of nature or God”

            Here we go again :

            Maternal mortality rate in truly natural birth in the good hands of nature or God is 1 000 – 1 500 dead mothers per 100 000 live births.

            Maternal mortality rate in USA in year 2013 in the way better hands of modern medicine was 18.5 deaths per 100,000 live births.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I can tell you so many women are only able to breathe and relax when they are enjoying their epidural. Which, btw, does NOT drug babies.

          • Something From Nothing

            Nature is a destructive force and if you believe in God, he is the decider of all. He causes a lot of pregnancy loss, destruction and mayhem. In the good hands of nature or God is not reassuring to me at all.

      • MLE

        It’s like how vomiting is more pleasurable than tongue kissing.

      • AmyH

        It’s tempting to like that post… it certainly was an enjoyable, humorous read. Like science fiction and comedy combined.

    • AgainstMedicalRape

      Thank you very much, Patricia Robinett! So well worded!

      I find it ironic that the author’s response to your comment is “How would you know the intent of obstetricians?” This response highlights an obvious logical fallacy in her own arguments and defiles her very own article here.

      Obviously, we cannot know the intents of obstetricians. This is the same with traditional (non-medical) rapists – we can never “prove” to know their intention was about power. Every time a rapist is convicted, nobody will ever “prove” his/her true intention, and the best we can do is estimate it by their behaviors.

      The irony here is that – like us and every other human being – she also does not know the intent of all obstetricians anyway, especially the men who invented this field.

      Unless this doctor knows about some new scientifically-proven mind-reading technology, she cannot make a convincing assumption that OBGYNs do not have an intention to have sexual power over women, especially as their behavior has shown it again and again.

      I find it disturbing that one who leaves some women saying they felt violated could disregard the patients feelings of rape as “irrelevant”. Much like the entire thesis of this blog, this is a statement in support of rape culture, and is meant to silence rape victims.

      Also, if she is to believe that intention of the rapist must be proven in medicine, then it only follows that it must be proven in traditional rape. Given that we can never read another human being’s mind and prove their intention, then traditional rape is also “not for real”, by her own arguments.

      Again, in support of rape culture.

      • Samantha06

        Do you reject any and all medicine of any kind? Please tell me you do, so I won’t have to worry about you crying rape if you come to the hospital I work at and I’m trying to massage your uterus to try to keep you from hemorrhaging to death after your home birth… I’m usually very busy taking care of people who want help and I simply don’t have time to document every syllable you utter to cover my butt so you won’t try to sue me… thanks in advance..

      • guestlawyer

        “Also, if she is to believe that intention of the rapist must be proven in medicine, then it only follows that it must be proven in traditional rape. Given that we can never read another human being’s mind and prove their intention, then traditional rape is also “not for real”, by her own arguments.”

        AgainstMedicalRape:

        Dr. Amy is talking about the legal definition of rape, which requires the defendant to have specific criminal intent- or a “guilty mind”.**

        Any time a defendant is convicted of, for example, first degree rape, a judge or jury has determined the defendant’s “intent”…. without mind reading capabilities! Amazing.

        This is law, *not* Dr. Amy’s opinion or argument.

        But don’t take my word for it- Google it. Maybe read a legal definition of rape.

        **statutory rape may be defined differently.

        • AgainstMedicalRape

          Thanks for your comments. It is great to hear from a lawyer.

          “Any time a defendant is convicted of, for example, first degree rape, a
          judge or jury has determined the defendant’s “intent”…. without mind
          reading capabilities!”

          If judges can determine the defendant’s “intent” in non-medical rapes, then they can do so in cases of medical rapes. Her argument is flawed because she argues that “birth rape is not for real” because rape is never a doctor’s “intention”, which by your own account, is something that can only be judged by a judge, and as a biased doctor, she cannot and has not proven to us that OBGYNS do not have intents for sexual power over women during birth.

          Your description of how a judge determines a defendant’s intent does not exhaustively exclude OBGYNs. Hence still with your own description, “birth rape is for real”.

          The very fact that she – along with other OBGYNS out there – know that sane women often feel violated and raped via the direct and everyday actions of her “job”, is evidence that she is fully aware of the rape-like repercussions her own actions have and will continue to cause.

          It is quite simple actually: People who do not have rapist mentalities would not settle for a job that leaves their customers feeling raped. If they had a burning desire to “help women”, they could still find a different job where they could help women without rape – and there are more of them available than the ones that include rape.

          If you are interested, I have read some of the works of Harvard lawyer Heather Dixon. She was kind enough to reply to me when I wrote to her about some of my concerns regarding medical rape, especially doctors duping frightened teenage girls into submitting to unwanted pelvic exams for birth control.

          • Samantha06

            “It is quite simple actually: People who do not have rapist mentalities would not settle for a job that leaves their customers feeling raped. If they had a burning desire to “help women”, they could still find a different job where they could help women without rape – and there are more of them available than the ones that include rape.”

            So, are you saying that *no one* should help women have their babies? Are you saying that anyone who works in Obstetrics is a rapist?

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            The answer to your questions should be obvious within the context of my prior paragraph, but I will verify:

            - I am not saying no one should help women have their babies, if that is what some women want. Fortunately, there are many avenues of birth to choose from, and I would choose homebirth (unassisted homebirth).

            - I am illustrating that OBGYNs have rapist mentalities, as they are fully aware that their actions cause rapelike feelings but they proceed anyway.

            These two are not mutually exclusive.

            I believe most people deny this simple truth because they feel they benefit from OBGYNs (and arguably a very small fraction do benefit from them). However, a small fraction benefiting from the same actions that cause a much greater fraction to feel raped does *not* mean that OBGYNs do not have rapist mentalities. The two are not mutually exclusive, and both can occur simultaneously.

            For the record, I am also not saying that all OBGYNs should be tried as rapists*, but I am saying that a requisite for someone to enter this job – where they know beforehand that they will cause rapelike feelings – is to have a rapist mentality.

            * For anyone interested, there are many situations where OBGYNs have demonstrated that they cause rapelike feelings without *any* excuse of medical benefit to at least go along with the rape. The author of this rape-culture-advocating article has likely seen (and possibly done) these – and more! – and still tries to sell us her unfounded and lackadaisical argument that OBGYNs surely never have rapist intentions:

            - Duping teenage girls into believing they need invasive pelvic exams to get birth control (“Pelvic Exam Prerequisite to Hormonal Contraceptives: Unjustified Infringement on Constitutional Rights, Governmental Coercion, and Bad Public Policy”

            – Unconsented anasthetized pelvic exams during medical school training (that is still common practice)

            - Pap smears to virgins. When I go to my school clinic to get a reference for physical therapy, I am told I “need” a pap smear, despite being a virgin and not being as risk for cervical cancer. (The book Bossy Pants by Tina Fey, where she describes a nurse performing a pap smear on her as a virgin, without describing the exam included penetration. This represents penetration of sexual organs without consent and without medical benefit

          • Guest

            So by your argument, dentists, urologists, gastroenterologists, and otolaryngologists are also part of the rape culture of medicine. And that they have a rapist mentality? Their specialties also involve penetration of the body (oral, anal, urethral). Or is only vaginal penetration rape? Pulmonologists would also fit this category as they often traverse the oral cavity in order to evaluate the pulmonary tree. Pediatricians who take rectal temps?

            Please answer this, because I’d love to hear how forced oral penetration isn’t rape or that men cannot be raped since they don’t have vaginas. Maybe I should bring charges against my dentist as I certainly didn’t like her drilling my cavity last week.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            The new FBI definition of rape: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

            That is a definition I listed previously. I believe that should answer your questions.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            So, my husband and I should have pressed charges against the ob who checked my cervix 12 hours into labor while I was rather out of it (due to the blood pressure medication they gave me, my bp soared 4 hours into labor despite being normal the previous 40 weeks) rather than that bastard who coerced him into receiving fellatio as a boy? Can you guess which incident still haunts us? I’ll give you a hint, I’m way more pissed off at the bp monitor lhat left bruises on my arms than any of my 3 cervical checks

          • Guest

            Wow. So I assume you campaign just as hard to jail gastroenterologists and counsel the men and women who were “raped” during their colonoscopies! Much better to remain unviolated and die of colorectal cancer (top five cancer killer in the US). And let’s not forget every baby who’s ever had a rectal temp taken. I myself must be a pedophile, having taken a rectal temp on all of my kids… I expect you will be calling the cops and they should arrive shortly…

            Just, wow.

          • Samantha06

            Let’s look at this scenario: You are brought in to the ER at my hospital. You are unconscious and in respiratory arrest because you have aspirated a foreign body. I start CPR on you (not penetrating any orifice), and the foreign body is dislodged and is sitting on your tongue. You are not breathing or conscious, so the next step would be to put a mask over your face and start bagging you to pump oxygen into your lungs. The foreign body needs to be removed, but I need to put my fingers in your mouth or use an instrument to grasp it or when I bag you, it will simply be forced back into your airway and you will aspirate it again. Since you are still unconscious, I can’t get your consent. Should I leave it there because technically I am raping you by entering your oral cavity to remove the object or should I let you die?

          • Samantha06

            Of course we both know any competent judge (and sane person) would understand in this situation the “intent” was not to violate you but to save your life.

            “I am illustrating that OBGYNs have rapist mentalities, as they are fully aware that their actions cause rapelike feelings but they proceed anyway”.

            That being said, do you consider all healthcare professionals closet rapists or just OB/GYNs? Is the Emergency Room physician who has to “proceed anyway” to save your life a rapist too, and the nurses who assisted or is it just Obstetricians? Because if the OB/GYN on call is not immediately available in an emergency, the ER doc will be the one doing the exam.

            *You* might feel “violated” because you had an instrument inserted in your vagina while you were unconscious, regardless of what the circumstances were. However, most women would understand that if that’s what it took to save their life, so be it. They might be uncomfortable about it, but they have enough common sense to know it’s certainly not “rape” or anything close to it. You need a reality check.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I understand that these could be life-saving a very small fraction of the time. However, I also understand that does not render it *mutually exclusive* to also having a rapist mentality:

            - A traditional rapist will rape without saving lives.
            - A lifeguard, firefighter, dietician, and everyday persons will save lives without rape.
            - A doctor will rape and save lives.

          • Samantha06

            “I understand that these could be life-saving a very small fraction of the time.”

            Reality: These situations happen a lot more often than you think.

            So now it’s “a doctor will rape and save lives” not just an OB/GYN? So, wouldn’t it fair to say that by that statement you are saying that all doctors, not just OB/GYNs rape their patients?
            And what about nurses or other healthcare professionals who save lives. Are they rapists too?

            *I* save lives too and I don’t consider myself a “rapist.”

            And what is your plan if you have a problem during your unassisted home birth? Do you plan to come to the hospital?
            How do plan to handle it if you need to be examined or have surgery? What if you have a retained placenta that needs removal? Have you considered any of these scenarios and how you will deal with them?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So someone grabs a guy, ties him to a chair, and gives him a handjob against his wishes.

            By the definition you are providing, it is not rape.

            Perhaps the FBI definition isn’t quite cutting it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Thinking about this, would “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina…” include massaging the clitoris? Done without consent, it must be rape, right?

            Because that’s what Ina May teaches, so that means that midwives must also be rapists and have a rapist mindset, too?

          • Samantha06

            Good point!

          • Samantha06

            Dr. Kitty was right… you need help.

          • Elizabeth A

            I’m really not seeing why your school clinic thinks you need a pap smear to get physical therapy – or is it just that when you go to get the referral, they also mention that, hey, you should have a pap smear? Because the latter is perfectly reasonable.

            I think that any doctor, anyone in any service profession, has to go in knowing that they will, at some point, have unhappy patients or clients. You can’t please everybody all the time, and people are very emotional about issues surrounding their bodies and their health. Birth is a vulnerable time. Responsible OBs – which I would argue is most of them – work to keep patients informed and minimize psychological discomfort. However, birth can involve a lot of pain and high emotion, which is a recipe for feelings of psychological trauma.

            If there is a moral imperative to never be the focus of anyone’s feelings of trauma, then no, no one can ever be an obstetrician, and a lot of women would be dead. I am personally extremely grateful that there’s a profession full of people who were willing to help me even when I regarded them with suspicion and fear, and who acted on the belief that it was better for me to be traumatized than dead.

          • KarenJJ

            “- Duping teenage girls into believing they need invasive pelvic exams to get birth control (“Pelvic Exam Prerequisite to Hormonal Contraceptives: Unjustified Infringement on Constitutional Rights, Governmental Coercion, and Bad Public Policy””

            That’s horrific if that is what’s happening but isn’t it more likely that doctors are recommending to start routine pap smears once sexually active? I can’t imagine a pap smear being the highlight of a GP’s day.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      If a woman was not frightened to death by the fear of the doctors, nurses, society… she would simply lie down in a soft, warm, comfortable, probably dark place, and let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal and up to her breasts and they would lie undisturbed until both were ready to carry on.”

      Almost 4000 years ago, childbirth recognized to be so painful that it was considered to be a punishment from God.

      That was not because of doctors and nurses, and as for society? I think they learned from them women, as opposed to telling them so.

      It wasn’t comfortable, it was friggin torture, and even the relatively misogynist men who wrote the bible stories could tell that.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        Dear Bofa… The rest of the world is not mental victim to our “curses” and does not experience what we experience. You are talking about an ancient superstition, a “curse” laid on Eve – the equivalent of Adam’s having to become a farmer… LABOR. WORK. OUCH! And guess what? You don’t need to live up to that ancient curse any longer.

        However, whenever a person fights what is natural, there will be pain, as resistance leads to tension and pain. But when one cooperates with nature – when one is relaxed and trusting – then there need be no pain. If the social body has the attitude that birth equates to pain, then that is enough to make a woman frightened and to resist the natural birthing process.

        And you can imagine the horror a male MD must feel to think about having a bowel movement … umm … how do you say this politely? … turd … the size of a baby’s head. It must be quite frightening for a male MD, to imagine something that large coming out of a rather small hole in a woman. He would be incredulous. Of course, that couldn’t happen! He is trained to panic. Of course he would have to stick his hand in to test, and drug and cut and pull and … you know all the stuff they do … to get that big thing out of that small hole. Yet need it be that “dramatic”? Only in the eyes of someone who has never “done it right” as “PrimaryCareDoc” says below.

        I read a story once about a very pregnant woman who had died in a car accident. The emergency room staff left her lying on the table as they went to take care of someone else. When they returned, the baby had made its way out of the womb – ALL BY ITSELF. Imagine that!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You are talking about an ancient superstition, a “curse” laid on Eve

          No, I’m not. I’m talking about prescientific cultures who are trying to explain the world they observe. They observe a rainbow, and they invoke a promise from God after the flood to account for it. Whether there was an actual flood or not does change the fact that they observed the presence of a rainbow. My reference to pain in childbirth in the OT is no different from noting that they also observed rainbows.

          They didn’t know what caused them and therefore considered them to be the result of action of God, but the fact that we don’t need that anymore doesn’t change the fact that the phenomenon existed.

          You seriously think they made up the pain in childbirth because the men assumed it must be painful? Or did the conclude it was painful because of all the screaming the mothers did, and then they told them it hurt like the dickens?

          • realitycheque

            I like how she complains that women are essentially being told how to perceive their standard of care by overbearing doctors who won’t consider their opinions because of arrogance and power, yet here she is: insisting that the only reason a woman would consider childbirth painful was because of brainwashing and naivete.

            It’s insulting at best, to assume that women the world over and throughout history have only experienced labour pain because they’re foolish, fragile flowers who were unable to think for themselves. Can we please give women more credit than this?

        • Bombshellrisa

          Nature is a bitch. I don’t trust her

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I disagree. I find nature to be very trustworthy. She has set up laws that we all need to follow. You, me, our muscles, our cells, trees, amoeba and bacteria are all subject to nature’s laws.

            It’s ultimately darn fair.

          • Bombshellrisa

            You know, I never thought about it that way. Nature does have laws. It’s just the way the law plays out sometimes that can be heartbreaking

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It’s just the way the law plays out sometimes that can be heartbreaking

            For one party, maybe. However, consider a bacterial infection that kills someone. Sucks for that person, but certainly a win for the bacterium.

            Similarly, a physiological issue might be bad for a certain person, but it’s far worse to have biochemistry suddenly cease at some point. We are far better to have something things like biochemistry and biomechanics to guide us than to have then work sporadically.

          • Elizabeth A

            Probably a lose for the bacterium, actually – most bacterium have a very limited lifespan after the host is deceased.

            Otherwise, though, I see your point.

        • Samantha06

          You truly are entertaining! Thanks! I needed some laughs today.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Laughter is the best medicine. That’ll be $175 for today’s session… pay the receptionist as you leave… ;)

          • yugaya

            And she is not joking, she charges $125 for her ‘basic’ bs for real, though I doubt that her cave office has a receptionist:

          • Samantha06

            Damn! I’m in the wrong profession for sure! Instead of working 12 hour shifts, helping moms birth their babies, being exposed to blood and body fluids of all kinds on a daily basis, I could start a “Due date predictions for only $125″ business, work when I wanted to and fleece the gullible out of their money!!!!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, isn’t it interesting to discover that our new Whackaloon just happens to be selling the shit she is peddling…

          • Samantha06

            For sure.. I wonder what the other whacko, “AgainstMedicalRape” is selling? “Medical rape evaluations” for $125 a pop?
            Your “tie a guy down and give him a hand-job” post was too funny!

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I attended medical school for one year on a full scholarship, but discontinued due to ethical conflicts – particularly regarding how OBGYN faculty treated patients and students. I am proud to say that I do not make any money with anything related to invasive genital exams.

            I am now a doctoral student in computer science, and that is my total source of income.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Bull. Shit.

            Because if you had really attended medical school, you’d know that there is zero interaction with OB/GYNs the first year. It’s all coursework. Nothing clinical.

            So, you know, nice try.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            Medical school curriculum varies by school.

            The school I attended did not have a clinical component in the first year, beside patient history. We were not even allowed to physically touch patients. However, we were required to rotate with a doctor, and my discipline was radiology, as my undergraduate degree was engineering.

            Several classmates of mine rotated in OBGYN. Doctors there disrespected the rule that first year students could not touch patients. In fact, one classmate told me that the doctor ordered her to lie to a patient that she was a doctor, a perform a pelvic exam on her. My classmate said it felt dishonest, and as though she “tricked her to get in her pants”.

            Before I left, I spoke with the curriculum head of the school, who also happened to be the OBGYN dean. I told him my concerns (invasive genital exams), and he challenged me (growled at me actually) when I expressed disgust that he required teenage patients to get pelvic exams from him if they wanted birth control from him.

            I observed much more than this, and also witnessed raping of students, and would have been raped myself during my second year had I not left. I wrote about it in detail in a *supportive* medical ethics blog.

            That is the tip of the iceburg of what I observed in medical school – before even entering clinical rotations.

          • Samantha06

            What a load of crap.

          • KarenJJ

            Which medical school? You’ve given lots of non-specific accusations and innuendos that aren’t helping you make a point. You are just looking really weird and off to people here that have also done medical training and/or worked with and/or interacted with doctors and the medical system.

          • Something From Nothing

            I call bullshit. If this was really happening in your medical school and you cared so much about all of these rape victims, what did you do to bring attention to the issue? To help the victims? You dropped out? Shame.

          • Susan

            Sometimes this phenomenon of the likely incredibly nuts drive in poster getting a whole lot of attention from bright people bothers me. I think we could all be spending our time more productively. I am as guilty as anyone. But after a point arguing with someone like AgainstMedicalRape is really pointless. It’s pretty obvious there is a screw lose somewhere. The internet is great for many things but it sure isn’t a pro that it gives ever unicorn scout a voice.

          • yugaya

            Yeah but this is the only birth-related place on the internet where that **** won’t fly.

            It is not that they lie, but there is an almost pathological need to outdo everyone else – notice how the poster not only witnessed medical rape, but managed to witness in person the entire checklist of worst examples of medical abuse attributed to OB/GYNs ( a senior doctor ordering first year student to falsely represent himself in order to ” get into her pants”, a head of faculty department no less who of his own free will admits to a first year drop out to eagerly exploiting underage girls again in order to get into their pants, first hand eye witnessing of actual rape, and personally experiencing a “near-rape” situation… I mean, what are the odds, really? I think we need to respond to that type of crap when it comes up because otherwise its fake legitimacy gets inflated every time it is posted.

          • Samantha06

            You are so right. Their patterns are quite predictable. I do think some of them are just argumentative instigators though. I think it’s important to “flush them out,” and discredit them, especially someone like her. Hopefully someone who read some of her stuff and may have thought her claims were legit will have second thoughts when they see that educated people have called BS on them.

          • Box of Salt

            AgainstMedicalRape ” I wrote about it in detail in a *supportive* medical ethics blog.”

            Could you link that blog, please?

          • Samantha06

            You know what? I suspect that you couldn’t cut it in med school and got kicked out. I’m sure they very quickly saw through your agenda and now you are very, very angry and on some obsessive crusade to slander the medical profession. I would have to agree with something from nothing- I bet you have done NOTHING to help victims of sexual abuse or anything else productive or positive to change this “culture” you rail against. How pathetic.

          • Dr Kitty

            My goodness.
            You reported these doctors to their hospitals?
            To the state medical boards?
            To the police?

            You state you were an actual third party witness to rapes, so, of course, you reported that?

            Or are you saying that there was a pervasive culture where raping students and patients was accepted, you spoke to one professor, who was a bit mean, so you dropped out and let it go apart from anonymous blog posts?

            When was this?
            Which state?
            Which medical school?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            You witnessed multiple rapes of students? You reported it to the police, right?

            And you know you would have been raped during second year had you stayed? What is this, “Minority Report?” That’s some amazing prescience you’ve got going there.

            In other words, liar.

            Oh, and I love how you added the detail that you were matched with a radiologist because you had an undergrad degree in engineering.

            Since radiology and engineering have SO MUCH to do with each other.

          • Dr Kitty

            In my experience, radiology and pathology attachments are where medical schools send the students with poor people skills in the hope it’ll inspire them to opt for specialities with minimal patient contact.

            They are also rotations where the students are unlikely to offend patients and cause law suits to the hospital or medical school before they either shape up or get asked to leave to programme.

          • Medwife

            I think AMR might be referring to a practice which is being overwhelmingly phased out at least in CNM programs, which is female students having to serve as pelvic exam models. They figured that since we are (almost always) all women, we would have no problem having pelvic exams performed on us by our classmates. It was done in groups of 4-5 students. Mine was the last class in my program to do this. We protested pretty vigorously and from then on, the school hired pelvic exam models, just like the medical school had always done.

            It definitely was not “rape” but there was an element of coercion, because if you wanted to refuse, you had to pay for a pelvic model. I know for a fact of some classmates who found it traumatic either because of a history of assault or simply out of humiliation.

            I had never heard of a medical school having its female students do pelvic exams on each other.

          • Guest

            Even twenty years ago, we had paid (or volunteer) patient models for learning physical exams. The woman who helped teach me also taught a friend in a school an hour away. I was a volunteer myself for eye exams (naturally large pupils). The only thing we ever “practiced” on each other was starting IVs and drawing blood. And I don’t think they do that anymore due to HIV and hepatitis risks.

          • Medwife

            My experience was about 7 years ago. Again, NOT RAPE. Uncomfortable? Inappropriate? Oh yeah. I’m glad that’s not happening any more.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            First of all, I used the asterisks around the word “supportive” medical ethics blog for an important reason: To demonstrate that this blog is not supportive. When I write about a sensitive issue of rape, I am called a “fake”, “pathetic”, “nut”, “weird”, “liar”, “bullshit” with “poor people skills” who “couldn’t cut it”.

            A more professional and reasonable way to communicate – if one were genuinely interested – would be to simply and calmly ask for more details, before assuming things do not add up.

            I would be more than happy to provide the link to my previous *supportive* blog if you could present me with a long-time member of this blog who does not use hurtful language. This person can then verify for you that I wrote in much detail – and included links to published articles from decades ago regarding other students who demonstrated rape symptoms in medical school at the hand of faculty – in my previous blog. This person can also confirm that I included the school name and faculty positions as well, and that the medical ethics moderator invited the school for their response, of which there were none. If the person you designate reads the comments, s(he) can also confirm that the medical ethics moderator stated that the school not responding was indicative of a confirmation that my post was factual, otherwise they had the right to deny the accusations.

            Because I will not check this blog when my school resumes after break, and also because I do not always see replies to my comments as I am not a member, you can contact me with a decent and sensitive long-term member – should you find one – of this blog at: AgainstMedicalRape@gmail.com, which I just created and will forward messages to my real account.

            - “And you know you would have been raped during second year had you stayed?”

            Yes, I do. I was told that I would not proceed from my second year to my third year unless I participated in unwanted and unconsented penetration of sexual organs in an environment that I found violating. It was also confirmed to me by an instructor that one student who did not wish to participate because she had been traditionally raped was in tears after being forced to participate.

            - “They are also rotations where the students are unlikely to offend patients and cause law suits”

            There are not many rotations that cause law suits. Even in OBGYN rotation, of the many patients who were gang raped via pelvic exams performed on them without consent while anesthetized, none of them or the medical staff and students has even filed a law suit.

            - “My goodness. You reported these doctors to their hospitals? To the state medical boards?”

            Yes, I reported the incidents to the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME). That is the most appropriate source for medical student complaints. As per their rules, they were unable to tell me the results after their investigation.

            - “You spoke to one professor, who was a bit mean,”

            As your designated respectful member can confirm, I spoke with many professors, classmates, staff, and medical ethics persons. I find it abhorrently condoning of rape culture for you to describe someone who makes cash by threatening and duping teenage girls into unwanted sexual penetration as “a bit mean”.

            - “I bet you have done NOTHING to help victims of sexual abuse or anything else productive or positive to change this supposed “rape culture” you rail against.”

            I reported all details and faulty people to the LCME, I tried to publish the story in nearby city newspapers but was rejected, I contacted numerous rape crisis contacts and support systems but they all told me that they did not cover medical situations. I also write about it in blogs during my breaks, which is evidenced here.

            - “Notice how the poster not only witnessed medical rape, but managed to witness in person the entire checklist of worst examples of medical abuse”

            Unfortunately, these are far from the “worst examples”. Please find other links I have provided in this Blog indicating much dire examples of medical abuse than what I witnessed. I did not witness any doctor secretly filming patients, performing oral sex on patients, or gang raping unconsented pelvic exams under anesthesia.

          • yugaya

            “gang raping unconsented pelvic exams under anesthesia.”

            bwahahahahahaha.

            ” if you could present me with a long-time member of this blog who does not use hurtful language”

            Labeling an entire profession as rapist is hate speech and still you have the nerve to object use of hurtful language.

            No seriously, you need help.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Huh? First years don’t spend time with OBs. The OB rotation takes place in year 3 (or rarely year 4).

          • LibrarianSarah

            Also, if you had “ethical concerns” about OBGYNs wouldn’t it make more sense to just pick another speciallty? Sounds more like somebody couldn’t hack it (no pun intended).

          • Samantha06

            Probably a good field for you. I know just a little about computers, so I wouldn’t presume to try to tell a computer expert about their field… which is what you have tried to do here… hence the negative responses..

          • Bombshellrisa

            At least you are not assuming that because someone is majoring in computer science that they have plans to become a hacker.

          • Samantha06

            That’s funny you should say that! I thought about responding to her with something like, “all computer scientists are hackers and just want to have power over people and steal their money, info, etc” I wonder what response I would have gotten? lol!

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            The response would have been that I would rather be a hacker than a rapist.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Wow. You are a really unpleasant person. Everyday doctors wo there asses off to save lives, often working holidays like thanksgiving and Christmas and what thanks do they get? Being called a rapist by some keyboard warrior on the Internet. I would bet the farm that the second you have a medical emergency you would be running to these “rapists” for help and they will help you without question. You make me sick.

          • Samantha06

            Amen to that! She is planning an unassisted home birth. I wonder if she will go running to the hospital if her UC goes south or will she just let herself and/or her baby die? My guess is she’ll run to the hospital. And after the “rapists” have saved her life, she’ll sue them.

          • yugaya

            I’m thinking of starting information rape advocacy crussade to fight all those born rapist computer technicians and engineers who performed unnecessary exams while they were fixing my laptop. Their excuse was that they had to touch my files with their rapist software in order to establish which one(s) caused the infection. I’m not buying that, they would not be in that line of work if they did not enjoy violating other people’s files to begin with.

            yugaya aka AgainstInformationalRape

        • Samantha06

          Uh, I hate to tell you, but I heard about a case where a man came in to the ER with an entire EGGPLANT in his rectum..yes, you read that right… an EGGPLANT.. and that’s a pretty damn big vegetable..

        • Something From Nothing

          I love how you compare babies to shit… It says it all. The baby is meaningless, it’s all about the mamma and her fear…

    • Bombshellrisa

      “Birth is supposed to be a private, peaceful time when a woman can feel more pleasure than she has ever felt in her life – after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis that impregnated her… only isn’t it much larger and in motion?” As if the only way to feel sexual pleasure is from a penis penetrating a vagina. And your idea of how births occur (“strapped to a table”) needs some updating.

    • yugaya

      “I know more than you do about how you perceive my treatment of you.”

      There is a lady somewhere on the internet who had very premature twins and perceives her treatment (c-section) as totally unnecessary. I perceive her and those like her as being utterly ignorant, ungrateful and stupid.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        Wow! Are you in the medical profession?

        • yugaya

          No! So, was she birth raped, because a medical intervention in her case is perceived to be unnecessary?

          According to you, she ought to have never went to hospital at all and just ” simply lie down in a soft, warm,
          comfortable, probably dark place, and let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal and up to her breasts and they would lie undisturbed until both were ready to carry on.”

          Except for the fact that in her case her very premature twin babies would have wiggled out of her birth canal to die undisturbed.

    • Roadstergal

      “Birth is supposed to be a private, peaceful time when a woman can feel more pleasure than she has ever felt in her life – after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis that impregnated her… only isn’t it much larger and in motion?”
      Okay, did she just refer to babies as size-queen sex toys?

      • Samantha06

        LOL!! Damn! This woman is hilarious!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          She’s basically an automatic NCB meme generator.

          • Bombshellrisa

            You need to do an NCB meme board on Pinterest : ) I would follow that for some much needed laughs

          • sdsures

            That quote deserves a meme in and of itself. Can someone please create it?

      • Elizabeth A

        Yes, but in a way that suggests she has no experience of sex toys. Even the size queens I know would pass on something the size of an average newborn.

      • sdsures

        I believe she did. Unbelievable.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      “after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis that impregnated her.”

      That’s why kicking a guy in the scrotum leads to sexual pleasure; after all doesn’t the kick affect the same tissue that released the sperm ejaculated during orgasm.

      See what a ridiculous argument that is?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Hey, there are some guys who are into that.

        Most people (including most guys) consider them to be pretty weird, of course…

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        You’re right, Amy. That’s an absurd argument. Kicking someone in the crotch is a lot different than a gentle birthing of a baby. Kicking a man in the crotch is a bit more like an episiotomy… or maybe an episiotomy is more like cutting a baby’s foreskin off. May I ask how many children you have circumcised, Amy? How many boys? How many girls? Thanks.

        • AgainstMedicalRape

          I also believe that is a more fitting analogy. Thank you!

        • Guest

          Are you actually familiar with male and female anatomy? And analogous structures during development?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Yes, they are identical for 8-10 weeks. Fascinating.

          • Guest

            If you were familiar with anatomy and development, you would not be comparing an episiotomy to circumcision of the foreskin. You continue to reveal (and apparently revel in) your ignorance of anything regarding anatomy and physiology.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            They are similar in that they are both usually unnecessary. The rest of the world is appalled by the fact that Americans circumcise – and circumcision is still being aggressively pushed in the USA as if it is – not a medical necessity, but a PROFIT CENTER. Only one male in 16,600 is circumcised due to legitimate medical necessity in Europe.

            The field is cut-happy. Way too cut-happy. Episiotomy is rushing birth. Nature does not usually need all that much help. There are many other ways to do things than with a knife or with chemicals that have deleterious side effects. American medicine resembles Mayan sacrifices. Barbaric. Totally barbaric. But if that is what you have been taught is “normal”, then you go along with it – and even get “blood lust” – as the the Romans and Mayans. Someone from a kinder, gentler background can’t even imagine such cruelty.

          • Elizabeth A

            Obstetrics these days *isn’t* cut-happy. Episiotomy is recommended only when it is necessary to rush a birth – when a baby’s heart traces indicate problems, for example. Sometimes nature does need help, and we’re bad at predicting exactly when that will be, so we try to have help standing by every time.

            The odds that I would have made it through my first birth alive without help are not great, and the odds that I’d have made it alive through my second are zero. Nature, red in tooth and claw, would have unapologetically killed me. I prefer the nurses who apologized while doing fundal massage (“I’m sorry, I’m sorry, you’re hemorrhaging, I know it hurts”), and the OBs who cut me open, to nature. I don’t think any of the medical folks had blood lust – all the rougher parts of OB treatment I’ve received have been driven by the need to stop me from bleeding.

          • Kate

            I can honestly say that I don’t think any of my peers who have told me about their births had episiotomies. And I heard all the nitty-gritty details…people are really fond of sharing crazy birth stories with pregnant women for whatever reason.

          • SporkParade

            I had an episiotomy. It saved the baby’s life and allowed me to avoid a C-section. And, despite only being circumcised a week later, the baby healed from circumcision much faster than I healed from the episiotomy.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            33% Cesarean is not cut-happy? That’s a lot of cutting babies out of mamas.

          • Elizabeth A

            We have a strong enthusiasm for everyone surviving birth, and an imperfect ability to predict which births will go off the rails.

            Some of that 33% is also a move from assisted delivery mechanism (like forceps and vacuum) to c-section. Forceps and vacuum are difficult to train doctors to use safely and effectively. There was a vacuum assist for my son’s birth, and I only allowed it because the doctor was experienced with the tool, and promised to drop it and head for c/s if there was trouble. No one wants to be the new kid’s first outing with forceps, and I don’t blame them.

            Also, see previously mentioned issues with advanced maternal age.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Elizabeth, hi! I am glad it worked out for you and your son. I still have indentations from forceps in my skull.

            As for cesareans… I remember reading that some hospitals require their doctors to perform a minimum number of cesareans. This is obviously to the advantage of the hospital’s bottom line, but it concerns me deeply, especially given the following: “…the U.S. ranks 50th with a maternal mortality rate higher than 49 countries worldwide. The U.S. ranks 1st with the highest infant mortality rates among the top 33 most ―”advanced” nations…. The U.S. cesarean section (c-section) rate rose for the 13th consecutive year, reaching an all time high of 32.9%, more than double the World Health Organization recommended rate of 5%-15%. New analysis shows that states with high c-section rates (over 33%) were associated with a 21% higher maternal mortality risk.”

            That, I believe is significant… a 21% higher maternal mortality rate. Ouch!

          • Elizabeth A

            To critique the arguments that you’ve presented here:
            - A hospital bills more for a c-section than for a vaginal delivery (there are OBs here who can speak to the difference), but c-sections cost more than vaginal deliveries, by a factor that exceeds the difference in billings and eventual receipts. A hospital may receive an additional $X per c/s, but the cost of c/s is more than $X more than the cost of a vaginal delivery. The c-section does not help the hospital’s bottom line.

            - The WHO quietly retracted their recommended c/s rate a few years back, because the recommended rate was based on no data at all. We don’t know what the right c-section rate is. The important thing is that every woman who needs a c-section should be able to get one.

            - Law Students for Reproductive Justice could stand to be more diligent about their footnoting. The footnote on that 21% increased risk of maternal death references Jennifer Block, a no-longer-available Time article, and a seven year-old AP article that doesn’t mention the statistic at all. A meaningful footnote on this issue would be a link to statistical analysis of maternal death and c/s rates by state. Had such a link been provided, I would now be tearing apart the assumption that the populations of each state are demographically identical – there are risk factors facing women in Missouri that aren’t issues for women in Massachusetts.

            - Furthermore, women who have c-sections aren’t medically identical to women who don’t – women with pre-eclampsia, placental insufficiency, and peripartum cardiomyopathy are both more likely to deliver surgically and more likely to die, but it’s not the c-section that leads to the increased risk of death.

          • Bombshellrisa

            So what does the patient population look like in those states? You have to look at the whole picture.

          • Bombshellrisa

            “Nature”needs no help, if you are satisfied with your baby dying. Otherwise, I want nature fought tooth and nail, as aggressively as possible. There are “other ways of doing things”, if you are satisfied with cancer treatments that consist of herbs that have no scientific proof that they kill cancer cells, if you are privileged enough to be able to cut whole food groups from your diet because you feel like it (not talking about true allergies or having Celiacs) or have the privilege to have disposable income to pay someone to read their astrological chart or tell them about their past life.

          • Guest

            No, you were comparing kicking a man in the crotch to an epis, then said that cutting a foreskin was more analogous. Anatomically. Your ignorance in this area, given your “expertise”, is frightening.

            And given your derision of American medicine, I am curious to know what country you feel has the best medical system. Keeping in mind that this blog has quite the international readership…

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Having had a son in the past year, I can tell you that circumsion was mentioned *once* in the context of “This is where they go if they need special monitoring or if you want your son circumsized.” I did not have an episiotomy, my kid’s big head succeeded quite well in tearing me. And leaving me not entirely continent. But I forget, I wasn’t suitably relaxed and breathing in lavender essential oils.
            Um, which ancient culture do you consider “kinder, gentler background?” I’m guessing the Mayans and the Romans you’re thinking of (rather than the modern Mayans and Romans) were after all, ancient cultures Many cultures’ early kings had servants, wives, and slaves killed and buried with them. (China and Egypt come to mind) In some parts of India women are still encouraged to throw themselves on their husband’s funeral pyre. The Vikings with their Blood Eagle, Celtic sacrifices, angry mobs the world around (a not unusual method of dynasty change in China), jihads and crusades, bear baiting and cock fighting, and so on and on. I’d really like to know where this lovely kinder, gentler society is.

        • Samantha06

          Aside from your crotch comments… I have to address your “gentle” birthing of a baby” nonsense. Really Patricia? Birth is not gentle in any way, shape or form. It’s the equivalent of pushing a watermelon through a straw. Ever had your head squeezed really, really hard? Or had a really bad headache that made your head feel like it was in a vice? That’s what happens to a baby in childbirth. Babies heart rates drop in response to their heads getting squeezed and the head molds and changes shape to accommodate the narrow vagina. Nothing too “gentle” about that.

          • sdsures

            And in cases of premature birth, the delivery is often rushed, which can be accompanied by bleeding in the brain. (Though I am not sure of the exact physiological processes that cause the bleeding.) Not gentle at all!

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Yes, not a good idea to rush a birth.

          • Samantha06

            sdsures is speaking of precipitous birth.

          • Medwife

            You’re coming across as an idiot. I just caught a baby after a labor of 2.5 hours, about a 5 minute second stage, culminating in a brief shoulder dystocia. Baby’s face was bruised purple. Birth can rush itself and it doesn’t make it more gentle.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Are you saying you disagree that it’s not a good idea to rush a birth?

          • Samantha06

            Did you not read Medwife’s post? Are you thinking of “rushing a birth” in terms intervention to “move things along”? We are talking about PRECIPITOUS birth, where the baby delivers very quickly with NO intervention. Now do you see why your statements are so frustrating and irritating? You don’t have a basic understanding of the mechanics of Obstetrics, so it’s very frustrating hearing you trying to tell us how babies “birth.”

          • Medwife

            I’m saying that a birth totally running on its own power can be rough on both mother and baby. Nature, birth included, is not gentle. And in fact, the roughness of birth is part of what prepares the baby to breathe. It’s why one of the few neonatal complications of c/s without labor is transient tachypnea of the newborn.

            ETA: really, the gentlest type of birth, from baby’s perspective, is a c/s before any labor.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Nature! Show me how tearing and ending up having to sit on an ice pack is so gentle!

          • sdsures

            Dude…it’s not a choice.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Wow, Samantha, I’m sorry you have such a small range of experience. There are other ways to do birth than you describe. No wonder women are afraid of birth, given such horrendous descriptions. Do more research. Watch “Birth As We Know It” – you might broaden your mind. What you describe sounds to me like a pit-to-distress birth – contractions that push the baby from the womb before it is ready. The danger is in the rushing of birth.

          • Cobalt

            Actually, that’s any vaginal birth. The uterus contracts around the baby, forcing the baby through the vagina. It’s not gentle, but it is basic anatomy and physics.

          • Samantha06

            Thanks for clarifying that!

      • sdsures

        And thus, jockstraps were invented! Otherwise, every sport would be an orgasm festival.

    • Amazed

      Thank you, Patricia Robinett. Don’t EVER stop! Also, don’t delete your comments, so your potential clients can see your bullshit for themselves.

      • yugaya

        Notice the “Madam,” intro. :)))

        • Amazed

          I did, I assure you. I was so impressed… not.

    • KarenJJ

      “If a woman was not frightened to death by the fear of the doctors, nurses, society… she would simply lie down in a soft, warm, comfortable, probably dark place, and let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal and up to her breasts and they would lie undisturbed until both were ready to carry on.”

      Not me. I was very anxious about hospitals and doctors. It was fine. I got past it. My kids are much healthier for it. Much better to help women deal with their fears and anxieties about doctors and hospitals rather then feed into it and profit from it.

      • sdsures

        I think Patricia has mistaken human birth for cat birth.

        • Kate

          I saw plenty of farm cats give birth when I was a kid, and I’m pretty sure those kittens didn’t just “wiggle out” either. Mama cat *did* eat the placentas, though, so there is that.

          • sdsures

            Mama cat does tend to push.

    • Elizabeth A

      after all, doesn’t the baby come through the same tissue as the penis
      that impregnated her… only isn’t it much larger and in motion?

      Have you ever had penis-in-vagina sex?

      The uncomfortable lesson that most of us learn early on in our sex lives is that not everything you can put in your vagina, and not all the ways you can put it there, will feel good. You can wind up torn, cut, bruised and strained from your everyday sex life if you and your partners aren’t thoughtful about it, and your everyday sex life is something you have a lot more control over than a birth.

      Just because there’s something in your vagina doesn’t mean you’re having a good time.

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        Choose your partner(s) wisely. Sorry if you have experienced such rudeness. You didn’t deserve to be treated that way. Everyone deserves love and respect.

        • Elizabeth A

          Treated what way?

          My early sexual partners were exactly as experienced as I was. There was love, respect, and mutual enthusiasm. It was the mutual enthusiasm that caused problems.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Sorry. I must have misunderstood. I thought you said, “The uncomfortable lesson that most of us learn early on in our sex lives is that not everything you can put in your vagina, and not all the ways you can put it there, will feel good. You can wind up torn, cut, bruised and strained from your everyday sex life if you and your partners aren’t thoughtful about it, and your everyday sex life is something you have a lot more control over than a birth.Just because there’s something in your vagina doesn’t mean you’re having a good time.”

          • Elizabeth A

            Congratulations, you have mastered cut and paste, if not reading comprehension.

            If you and your partners are, just to pick an example out of a hat, hormone-addled teenagers who haven’t yet realized that the word lubricated on the condom wrapper doesn’t prevent all possible chafing, and your signal to call it quits is someone’s mom’s car coming up the drive, and mom gets stuck in traffic, well, the results are pretty predictable. You might get home without really noticing, but when you meet up again the next day, you’ll notice.

          • Cobalt

            “My first time was in high school. When the moment came to finally get it on, I laid her down on the couch, climbed on, and slowly slid in. After a few seconds I felt an uncomfortable friction, which I was afraid to mention. Another 10 seconds and the friction was becoming painful. I remember thinking, “I don’t see what the big deal is, this kinda hurts.” Then I finished, looked down, and realized I was pumping between the cushions of the couch. The only thing that made it worse was the look on her face: a combination of frustration and pity.

            I Lost It To A Couch”

            http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=25697

          • Elizabeth A

            Poor girl! And poor boy too, I suppose. I hope he didn’t hit the zipper on the cushion. My mom’s couch had some industrial YKKs.

        • demodocus’ spouse

          2 virgins fumbling can accidently injure one another, and it’s just more likely if you are on the receiving end. It ain’t that difficult, even with best intentions.

    • Something From Nothing

      Do you actually think that before modern medicine, women laid in a soft place and their babies wiggled out? Are you serious? Yes, no one ever died having a baby, and never ever will. That’s what is happening in the world right now where women do not have access to obstetrical care. They done hemorrhage or die or sepsis. They have lovely, beautiful births in soft dark places and their babies wiggle to their breasts. What a lovely, magical world you live in…

    • sdsures

      “It appears that the medical attitude in this situation – as well as others – is: “I am the power and you should neither have nor voice an opinion in opposition to mine. I am the authority. You should bow to authority. Shut your mouth and bow to me! I am a doctor! I am smarter than you are! You can teach me nothing, for I know everything. I know more than you do about how you perceive my treatment of you.””

      In an emergency situation, there often isn’t time to light the incense and burn sage, to make your feelings better, because the doctor only has 30 seconds to get the baby out.

      Would you rather sage and incense, and the doctor to hold your hand and coo to you…or that the doctor get the baby out as quickly as possible to avoid it being brain damaged from hypoxia?

      I was sexually assaulted in 2006. Although I was not technically raped, I suffer from PTSD as a result. I never reported it because there was no physical evidence, and as a result I didn’t think anyone would believe me. I said to myself, “A bad date isn’t against the law,” even though I now know, after speaking with numerous psychologists, that what happened to me was sexual assault.

      It sucked. But it was not rape, and so I never referred to it as such when I finally told someone about it. I know the difference.

      Calling something “birth rape” when it does NOT meet the standards of medical malpractice (you just got your feelings hurt) does a disservice to all victims of sexual assault and rape (both sexes).

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        I am sorry you were treated in a way that caused you to have PTSD symptoms. No one should treat another cruelly, ever. Have you heard of “pit to distress”? That is the administering of Pitocin to the point that the mother and child are in distress and a cesarean can be justified. So the “emergency” often is not a natural emergency, but one imposed on the patient by the system. Iatrogenic is the word for problems caused by the medical system itself.

        You suffered sexual assault. So perhaps we should call it sexual assault and battery? Battery is the crime or tort of unconsented physical contact with another person, even where the contact is not violent but merely menacing or offensive. So, “assault and battery” sound right to me. This woman is suing her doctor… and I certainly understand and support her. Some people should not be practicing medicine – especially not obstetrics.
        http://theunnecesarean.com/blog/2008/12/17/more-than-just-rude-behavior-the-rest-of-catherine-skols-all.html

        • Samantha06

          “Have you heard of “pit to distress”? That is the administering of Pitocin to the point that the mother and child are in distress and a cesarean can be justified.”

          More NCB, anti-medical rhetoric. How would you know this Patricia? You, yourself said you are not a doctor or a nurse. All of us who work in L&D know this is BS. And you are certainly not qualified to judge whether or not anyone should be practicing medicine or obstetrics. Please stick to your hypno-regression-astrology therapy.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I wish she understood that she started out soundly merely foolish, now she has erased all doubt that she lacks the capacity to differentiate fact from fiction. Repeating every meme in the book doesn’t make one sound smart.

          • Samantha06

            Yep. And then to try to lecture actual medical professionals on our job and the state of the healthcare system proves that point and then some. Good grief!

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            You don’t imagine there might be a built-in prejudice among medical personnel, do you? I am becoming very clear about how the mind works, here. You all have way too much at stake to question your paradigm. It takes great courage to open one’s mind and consider that the malpractice insurance rates are high because there are a lot of very dissatisfied families. The lawsuit I cited is an example. People are sick of being abused by the system. My own mother went along with a doctor’s pitch for her to go through a second round of chemo “just in case” and that second round killed her – bur of course, she had very good insurance and you can’t let good insurance go to waste. She always was a sucker for a white coat… she agreed to have me circumcised… another embarrassing bit of medical history that has been scrubbed from the records.

          • Samantha06

            Isn’t this just the pot calling the kettle black? Here you are bemoaning the horrible medical system and how people are duped and abused by it, yet here YOU are, selling “astrology readings” and “hypno-regression therapy”?? If that isn’t hypocrisy, I don’t know what is. I’m sure your mother’s doctor discussed both the risks and the benefits of additional chemotherapy. As for the insurance? Uh, it’s very difficult to get insurance companies to approve ANYTHING, without following very strict criteria. I know, I was a case manager and dealt with this on a daily basis. Risa is right, you don’t know fact from fiction.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            In my work, I help people relax. That is my work. I see the ravages of stress, strain, trauma on the mind and the body and when they relax fully, they get well. It’s not rocket science, but it doesn’t need to be. Healing is quite simple and does not require heroic measures… just relaxation. The world as we know it is very very intense. We have moved so far from what is natural that we can barely imagine what natural is. I’m grateful to be in touch with my nature. If you all were, we would not be having such a ‘heated’ conversation; we would simply share ideas and learn from one another. I feel like i’ve entered a lion’s den… pretty stupid move on my part. But I can’t apologize for what I know. I’m very well read and researched and am about ready to write a book. I think I’ll call it “Birth Rape”, in honor of this article. Whadya think? Catchy title, hmm?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Relaxing is quite a luxury, and someone who is privileged enough to have disposable income to pay someone else to help them relax will probably be able to heal from whatever minor thing they are feeling unwell from.

          • Samantha06

            I think “sharing ideas” in your view is agreeing with you. And as long as people agree with you then we are “in touch”, right? But when you were challenged, your discussion got rather heated. The “lion’s den” was of your own creation… it’s just plain rude, disrespectful and arrogant to swoop in here and “educate” a group of people who have spent years in education, training and experience in how you think they should do their job.

          • MLE

            Well there’s your problem, the exit for the echo chamber was about three miles before the lion’s den. U-turn and head back to town, turn left when you see the old Smith place.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Built in prejudice. Right. Because all the years of schooling, training and working in the field doesn’t teach us ANYTHING and couldn’t possibly teach us as well as reading some books and watching some documentaries did for you. It takes great ignorance to walk into a forum of medical professionals and believe your view (not based on anything scientific btw) is correct and it’s MEDICINE that’s the problem.

          • Who?

            We all have built-in prejudice: yours happens to be against the medical profession.

            You’ve had some difficult experiences, and have allowed them to be extrapolated out to the entire medical profession and community. What about all the people for whom chemo is a lifesaver? And what’s wrong with trying one more time if that’s what your mum wanted?

            Respecting decisions we don’t agree with, particularly if they are followed by pain and suffering (note, followed by, not lead to) is a test of character and temperament, as those who have lived in the world awhile surely know.

            You sell stuff to help people be calm, or so you say, but you are so angry inside. I don’t understand how that works.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            There are only three cultures that circumcise their young… and those three are duking it out in the Middle East… Jews, English-speaking Christians and Muslims… coincidence? Coincidence that every war over the past century and a half has involved at least one circumcising culture? I think not. I always could relate better to men than to women and when I found out I’d been circumcised, it all made sense. What we think of as “male traits” in the US are actually “traumatized person” traits. Some go to anger; others withdraw… It depends on the predisposition of the person. I spoke with one man who had not been cut and he said, “I always wondered why I was so well-adjusted.”

            Well, you women who were not cut as children may be less angry than I, though I am far less angry now than I was as a young person. I rarely get angry now. But I am very protective of mothers and children. And I see them being manipulated into dangerous situations during medical births.

            The bottom line problem is, the medical profession doesn’t realize the quality of life factor is diminished by cutting and drugging, It stops at the body and thinks it has done a good job. But there are repercussions that it does not track or measure.

          • Who?

            I know we joke about men being centred on their penises, but you take it too far.

            My husband was circumcised as a toddler due to an infection; he remembers the pain before and the icecream after and is the least angry person I’ve ever met. Where does he fit in your spectrum?

            You identify as protective of women, assuming-perhaps-that they are like your mum, who to your mind couldn’t make good medical decisions for you or herself. I don’t doubt, as a mother myself, she took advice and did the best she could. Instead of being angry with her, which you could heal from, you are angry with doctors, which only works if they are all evil, otherwise maybe your mum might have got luckier. And of course if they are all evil that should be shouted from the rooftops. Thing is doctors are no more a homogeneous group than any other selection of humans.

            The trouble with your advice so far as childbirth is concerned is that it is not only wilfully ignorant, but wrong, at least if healthy outcomes is the goal. Of course if the goal is having a baby-in any state-come out of a vagina-in any state-your criteria for success will be different, which is where you are at.

          • sdsures

            I missed out on the reason why Patricia was circumcised, and can’t be arsed to read through the whole post. Was there some medical problem that necessitated it?

          • Who?

            I thought it may have been done when she was a he, but another poster found her website and apparently she disscoverdd as an adult that she had been circumcised as a young girl. Ii’m both squeamish and not medically trained, I don’t know what that means nor do I want to find out. Repressed memory?

          • Karen in SC

            If you try to Google any information about female circumcision in the 1960s, you get info about Ms. Robinett and her book almost exclusively. I was unable to confirm any reputable numbers.

          • Dr Kitty

            http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hTD4rrP98NwC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=clitoridectomy+in+usa&source=bl&ots=rn22vgrX4T&sig=OXZ4oPZBuvP8cl_EUhrlX7Ywd0E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rH94VJTzF6Xm7gbns4CIAg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=clitoridectomy%20in%20usa&f=false

            According to this book, the last clitoridectomy performed in the USA for prevention of masturbation was on a five year old girl in 1948.

            It cites a 1963 JAMA paper by J.Duffy:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14057114

            Clitoridectomy and labial excision surgeries were (and are) certainly done infrequently in the USA, usually as a misguided attempt to “normalise” intersex individuals. It has never been widespread or common practice.

            Patricia might (or might not) want to clear things up further.

          • Karen in SC

            Only if you buy the book, Dr. Kitty!

          • Dr Kitty

            “I have a terrible story of medical malpractice and cruelty. But I can’t tell you the details unless you pay me $”.

            Totally legit.

            Or

            Yet more evidence of tinfoil-hatted quackery and exploiting the vulnerabilities of others.

            Your choice.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            I assume it was a “repressed memory” and therefore likely wildly inaccurate at best. As a survivor of having “repressed memories” brought forward – and the cult deprogramming required to undo the damage, I am heartily skeptical of these stories, especially in the case of such a… I literally don’t have words for the days long THING she has carried on here. I mean seriously, it’s so outrageously stupid, disingenuous, ignorant and hateful that I actually can’t even.

          • Who?

            It’s a grotesque the way the repressed memory crowd behave. A mixture of cynicism and self interest that is really most unpalatable, not to mention cruel. How desperate for money would someone have to be to sell that snakeoil?

            I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had that experience, and glad you are on the other side.

          • yugaya

            ” Coincidence that every war over the past century and a half has involved at least one circumcising culture?”… and of course she is also a historically ignorant bigot.

          • sdsures

            I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

          • SporkParade

            Did you seriously just blame the Jews for the Crusades? I guess being burned to death in the tower in York or drowning oneself in the Rhine to avoid forcible baptism is “duking it out.” As opposed to being murdered for being the wrong religion. Also, I’m pretty sure the rest of Europe was involved in the Crusades. Not sure why you think there were more English Crusaders than French or Germans. And the English didn’t practice circumcision.

          • Dr Kitty

            “Every war over the past century and a half has involved at least one circumcising culture”.

            Really?
            Circumcision was the root cause of World War One and Two?
            The Sino-Japanese War?
            The Russo-Japanese War?
            The Sri Lankan Civil War?
            The Cultural Revolution in China?
            The Civil War in Burma?
            The multiple insurrections, coups and revolutions in South America?

            I don’t think you’re as familiar with world geopolitics as you think.

            Tell me how much circumcision goes on in Sri Lanka, Burma, South America, Eastern Europe, China and Japan?

          • sdsures

            Oy.

          • sdsures

            “What we think of as “male traits” in the US are actually “traumatized person” traits. Some go to anger; others withdraw… It depends on the predisposition of the person. I spoke with one man who had not been cut and he said, “I always wondered why I was so well-adjusted.””

            Paging Dr Freud…

          • AmyH

            Man I’ve been missing out over the last few days. She would definitely think my husband was circumcised based on his personality. (She would be wrong.)

            Of course all the machista cultures practice circumcision…not. (My hubby is a great guy, but he does have to work on those traumatized person traits sometimes.)

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            It is said that Freud did not have his three sons circumcised.

          • sdsures

            You are missing the point. Psychoanalysis began as focusing on ANY childhood trauma, real or perceived, and linking that to the patient’s current dilemmas. In modern times it has become far less sensationalized and more scientific. Any basic university course on psychology will tell you all about it.

            “It is said…” does not mean what follows the phrase is fact. Please provide facts.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Are you familiar with World War II? How were “circumcising” cultures the cause of that?

          • sdsures

            Here we go…

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Well, you might be sorry you asked…
            http://guardian.150m.com/jews/jews-declare-war.htm

          • An Actual Attorney

            Oh, those poor Germans. They were just defending themselves against wider Judea?

            I don’t usually respond to trolls or idiots, but I do want others to see what an offensive, stupid, idiot you are

          • Cobalt

            From the WHO, circumcision rates worldwide, by country, as of 2007.

          • Cobalt

            Areas of armed conflict, 2014

          • Cobalt

            There is NO correlation circumcision rates and armed conflict rates.

          • sdsures

            I think the conflicts might have more to do with “no oil” and “no water” than “no foreskin”. But that’s just me, trying to be all rational.

          • Dr Kitty

            In the case of Mexico and Colombia, add “drug cartels” to the list of causes.

            Pretty sure the root causes of cartel violence are money and drugs, not circumcision.

          • MLE

            It’s insane that this needed to be spelled out.

          • Samantha06

            Please see yugaya’s comment above. No other response needed.

          • sdsures

            Ironically, there are probably a lot of patients undergoing chemo and other life-saving treatments that could be helped immeasurably by being taught how to relax. Having a serious chronic illness comes with all kinds of tension. But it sounds like in Patricia’s view, it’s got to be all or nothing. That makes me sad.

          • Who?

            Me too. Imagine being in that dark place and falling into the hands of a charlatan like Patricia.

          • Guest

            Ah, her own “prejudice” becomes more clear. A doctor “killed” her mother (not the cancer, the money hungry doctor) and therefore all doctors are evil rapists.

          • Samantha06

            And a doctor convinced her mother to have her circumcised. She is very angry. Some of her posts have a sugar-sweet, patronizing tone. I would imagine some of her “patients” like it, but she picked the wrong group to pull that on.

          • yugaya

            “Patricia Robinett…Ten years ago, in a friendly conversation with an authority on PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder), Patricia began to wonder if circumcision had an effect on cognitive and psychological development. She immediately began working on the Internet and in public forums,
            researching the effects of circumcision on children and the adults they become. …After two years of study, Patricia was surprised to find that she had herself been circumcised as a young girl.”

            She also made a reference in an earlier post that implies how medical records concerning her mother’s decision and her circumcision do not exist at all: “….. another embarrassing bit of medical history that has been scrubbed from the records.”

            So, first she went into agenda-driven circumcision “research” (that would be the edmucated version of doing research), and then, all of a sudden, two years later she discovered that she is a victim of it too.

            I’m tempted to call bullshit on this because It sounds to me that there was a lot of hypno-astro stuff involved in her arriving at her conclusions about what happened to her. I can’t do that without reading her book, which I have no intention of paying for.

          • Samantha06

            You’ve hit the nail on the head. BS is right. I’m wondering if she “regressed herself” to come up with all this mess! Good Lord! You what I’m thankful for on this Thanksgiving? That I am reasonably intelligent and have a little bit of common sense. But what I am really thankful for is that I am not screwed up like Patricia, or her cohort, “Againstmedicalrape”! I can’t even imagine living in the twisted fantasy world those two live in!

          • sdsures

            The mind can indeed delude itself.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            The cancer was gone. This was “just in case” there “might” be something else to kill. If you read the “side effects” on chemo, it says it can damage the heart… and it did, damage hers.

          • Elizabeth A

            Yes, this is one of the risks of chemotherapy. Of course, if you skip that round of chemo, your risk of cancer recurrence is higher. I had this conversation with my doctors several times.

            One of the things I made peace with in my treatment was the idea that I was going to make decisions with the information available, and those decisions were going to be reasonable, and informed, and they were not guaranteed to turn out the way we all wanted.

            I made peace. My husband (and even more, my very young son) did not. I’m sorry for your loss and your ongoing pain.

          • sdsures

            Treatments for cancer are a wonderful thing. One of my former middle school teachers recently finished a set of radiation treatments for a particularly nasty form of skin cancer, If it’s metastasised, you basically have no chance at all. Fortunately, with prompt surgery and radiation, she’s doing well, and says the scans show no mets. I’m not sure what’s next for her at this point. I’ll give her a beep on Facebook.

          • yugaya

            “You ALL have way too much at stake to question your paradigm.”

            Fact check:

            Me – done having children which were btw all natural births and all exclusively breastfed, do not work in the medical field,do not make money promoting my personal pseudomedical services, do not make money blogging the crap outta my personal views on anything.

            You -no direct experience with childbirth whether professional or personal, so far removed from the basic emotional and physical realities of pregnancy and childbirth that you refer to unborn child as “baby load” and compare the effects of childbirth on a woman’s body to playing with oversized sex toys and defecating, actively making money off of emotionally volatile people who fall for your/ NCB bs. IOW, you are the one in this conversation who is heavily invested in propagating your batshit insane “paradigm” and promoting your bonkers worldviews and your hypno-astro business based on it.

            Mhm A-ha Oh Yeah Da-da.

          • Samantha06

            Yes, this! Spot on.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I should have said, “except for yugaya”… but you seriously have me not pegged correctly in your fictional description… and you have left me behind in the dust with the fantasies of what you think i might have said… maybe… but didn’t.

            It’s amazing to see how many people imagine I am getting rich selling books and seeing clients… that I have a business… very funny. When I did, I did very good work and did not charge much. And when I work with people these days, now that I am retired, I do not charge money. I live on a very small pension. My books sell a few a month. I really should learn more about marketing.

            It’s puzzling to me how such an intelligent crowd will turn to character assassination, name-calling, appeals to authority and many other logical fallacies to criticize someone who dares to question their chosen favorite thing… medicine. I prefer to stick to the topic at hand – what really is going on in the hearts and minds of some patients who can only weep when they talk about their visit to the hospital because they were treated so harshly and were humiliated so soundly? And do they deserve to be beaten even further into a pulp by clever defenders-of-the-faith?

            I definitely walk to the pace of a different drummer. Sorry. But it pleases me to not be part of the machine. Does being brutally born in a medical hospital qualify as having experience with birth? Does being circumcised in a medical establishment qualify as having experience with the medical field? Does working with people who have had traumatic experiences during birth and circumcision, qualify me? I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves… traumatized women and their traumatized children.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            “Does working with people who have had traumatic experiences during birth and circumcision, qualify me?”

            Actually, it makes you a particularly nasty kind of abuser. Trauma during birth and circumcision? Bullshit. You “recover repressed memories,” I’d bet on it. And that brand of quackery is one I have zero tolerance for, having had my own memories fucked with, my brain manipulated and my very experiences warped. Fuck you.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Thank you. I have read what you have gone through. I admire you for putting it out there. Abusers of all kinds are always intent on telling what you are feeling and telling you what happened-and their version always makes them look good and you look stupid.

          • Stacy48918

            “their version always makes them look good and you look stupid.” EXACTLY.

          • Stacy48918

            “having had my own memories fucked with, my brain manipulated and my very experiences warped”
            Wow this rings so very true. It wasn’t until I moved out that I realized how abusive my husband was and how messed up he made my mind.

          • sdsures

            I’m so sorry your husband abused you. Unfortunately, the hell that abusive spouses put their partners and children through can and does warp perceptions. It’s very common, Glad you got out.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “It’s amazing to see how many people imagine I am getting rich selling books and seeing clients… that I have a business… very funny.”

            I don’t think you are getting rich off your book, or your hypnotherapy.

            If you were, you wouldn’t be hoping to drum up your sales by commenting on this website.

            “I definitely walk to the pace of a different drummer.”

            Why don’t you just walk, instead of trying to sell it?

          • Bombshellrisa

            “Does being brutally born in a medical hospital qualify as having experience with birth? ” No.
            Medicine is my thing because I have done woo. Numerology, color therapy, aromatherapy, touch therapy to release emotions, feng shui and all other manner of woo. I studied at a school that emphasizes all manner of woo and trained to be a home birth midwife. I read “You can heal your life” and tried to incorporate that with what I was seeing when I went to nursing school. It doesn’t work. Nobody “chose” their abusive parents in heaven prior to birth so they could learn certain lessons to become a better person and pride doesn’t cause knee problems. Critical people don’t “create” arthritis with their thoughts.

          • AlisonCummins

            Nope. Not even close.

          • yugaya

            “fantasies of what you think i might have said.” – I quoted your exact words, if there is fantasy in there it is of your own creation.

            If you are no longer in hypno-astro-mumbo-jumbo business, you need to update your “professional” website and stop advertising your hypno-astro-mumbo-jumbo services publicly.

            If you are not into making money off of your supposed experiences, then your book ought to be available for free.

            As for character association, there is no need for that, you ended up posting nazi propaganda links to support your claims which is enough proof of your lack of character and speaks volumes to reasonable people about exactly who they are dealing with.

          • sdsures

            “She always was a sucker for a white coat…”

            Or maybe she wanted to beat the cancer once and for all, and you know, live. Calling your late mom a sucker sounds quite disrespectful.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “You all have way too much at stake to question your paradigm”

            Back at you, Patricia. But I’m neither selling a book nor my services which depend upon “dissing the medical model.”

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I am retired. I do not market my book. I simply observe and am appalled at what I see happening to women in hospitals. Good books: “Confessions of a Medical Heretic” and “MALePRACTICE” by Robert Mendelsohn, MD. He worked in the field and was also appalled by what he saw.

          • AlisonCummins

            If you’re retired. how are you getting onto the L&D wards of hospitals to observe labouring women and babies being born?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Dr Mendelsohn practiced pediatrics in the 50′s and early 60′s-not relevant to obstetric practices in 2014

          • Stacy48918

            When I decided to move out I took Mendelsohn’s book with me…ripped every single page out and threw it away. Very therapeutic. Quack.

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            I attended a medical school that Dr. Mendelsohn wrote about in his book! He wrote about a student who was asked to see a psychiatrist when he questioned an OBGYN instructor about the unconditional use of stirrups. I was also recommended to see a psychiatrist at the same school for questioning some of the abuse I witnessed there – and that was decades after the book was published. This indicates that students who question the abuse are immediately silenced to maintain the status quo, and that this system has still not changed in decades.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Thanks for the update. Unfortunate it persists. Michael Greger, MD, wrote a book about his experience as a student: “Heart Failure – Diary of a Third Year Medical Student”. I must have read it as he was writing it, because he kept adding sections…
            http://upalumni.org/medschool/

            Mendelsohn wrote that the standard used for selecting med students was an ability to memorize and not ask questions. Greger was not built like that: “Authority and I don’t get along very well – since kindergarten, actually. I had a habit of ‘talking back’ to teachers, principals, adults. I cannot stomach the arbitrary power – what to do, what to wear, where to be. Because I said so, they would say.” Med school was very hard on him… but maybe not harder than on the patients he writes about.

            I’d have to say that this book breaks my heart to read. Very sad for both med students and patients. Notice that in the ob-gyn section he talks about a “gang gynecological exam” of an unconscious woman. Sounds like a form of rape to me. He felt it was. The whole book is sad, sad, sad… brutal, brutal, brutal.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett, not surprisingly your next book recommendation is from the year 2000, and is only available from third party sellers (starting at $60 for a new paperback) because it’s self published.

            Nothing says “credibilty” as much “self published.”
            Sarcasm off.

            Are you “not market[ing]” for Greger, too?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
          • Who?

            Ouch for Dr Mendelsohn.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinette “He worked in the field and was also appalled by what he saw.”

            In what decade, Patricia?

            It’s 2014.

            Why would I care about what some guy who describes himself as a “medical heretic” thought about the field back when I was in high school? And for those who don’t know: I’m an AMA mom whose kids are in elementary school. Do the math.

            Yeah, *nothing* has changed since then.

            Interestingly, when I searched the title AND author of your recommended book on Amazon, the only hit I got was your book. I had to redo the search to find him. Not marketing indeed.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Well, when I search, I get his books. Perhaps you searched for my book by mistake? Or perhaps you lie? http://www.amazon.com/Male-Practice-Doctors-Manipulate-Women/dp/0809257211/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418014155&sr=1-4&keywords=robert+mendelsohn

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia, when I cut and pasted out of your comment into Amazon, and searched Books:

            “Confessions of a Medical Heretic” and “MALePRACTICE” by Robert Mendelsohn,

            The only hit was your book. The website apologized. I wish I’d screen capped it.

            I found Mendelsohn’s books by doing the search only with his name.

            I find it weird – that’s all.

            Oh, and could you please reveal to other readers the year Mendelsohn published his “Mal(e) Practice” expose?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Using your criteria, I got only Mendelsohn’s excellent books.
            http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=%22Confessions+of+a+Medical+Heretic%22+and+%22MALePRACTICE%22+by+Robert+Mendelsohn

            You are rude and crude. I can’t believe such intelligent people can be so very ugly to other people. This site only confirms my worst fears about the industry.

          • MLE

            What in the world are you talking about? You’re an incredibly sensitive flower if you think anything Box of Salt has said is “crude” much less “rude,” especially compared to some of your own comments! Ha!

          • Who?

            Perhaps you should go back to your echo chamber where you are the font of all knowledge (everyone thinks it is 1978 there) and you can be not disagreed with.

            And you just accused someone of lying, so you are the rude one winner for now.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia “This site only confirms my worst fears about the industry.”

            What industry?

            Do you ever actually answer questions posed to you?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            No, Amy, I do not answer foolish questions or respond to foolish statements.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “Or perhaps you lie?”

            No.

            Soft-pedal the truth to spare feelings? Yeah, OK, guilty.

            Lie?

            Just no.

            And that one I did screen cap, Patricia.

          • Box of Salt

            Repeating the search as I did originally now gives me only Mendelsohn’s book. Granted, this is after I searched for his name by itself.

            By any chance was that exact phrase somewhere in yours? That might explain why yours showed up in my search.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            My book might use Mendelsohn’s books as references, in which case Amazon would point to my book, but his books should definitely show up, as Amazon obviously sells them all.

          • MLE

            Apparently this guy was anti bypass surgery, which is a topic near and dear to my heart (couldn’t help myself) as it saved my dad’s life. NOW I AM CONVINCED!

          • Samantha06

            I think both Patricia and Againstmedicalrape are nothing more than a couple of pathetic, frustrated, angry trolls…

          • Who?

            ‘pathetic’ seems a bit harsh, though I grant you not necessarily unfair.

          • Samantha06

            Harsh, maybe but true. Robinette sells snake oil that’s potentially harmful to vulnerable people. The other one spreads her disdain of the medical field on a blog of medical professionals.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I thought he was in practice for a few years only, in pediatrics. In the late fifties to early sixties. Never in obstetrics and not any time recently. And one self described heretic does not the truth make. Stacy knows a lot more about this guy and shredded one of his books : )

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I read it in the Wall Street Journal, and other places. http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB115266494103204113 – There are also many nurses who have complained that they have been ordered to subject mothers to this practice, because the nurses know it is dangerous. Here, from “Journal of Perinatal and Neonatal Nursing”…
            http://www.nursingcenter.com/lnc/JournalArticle?Article_ID=1257294

            Samantha, The medical field used to “hypnotize” people with its bells and whistles and the “honor” of being in the presence of an omniscient MD. However, the Rockefeller medical system has lost its allure for many people. Watching friends and family members treated disrespectfully and allowed to die when they didn’t need to – they are turning to things that work. I am speaking as a concerned citizen, having seen a lot of people who were treated abysmally. What makes you think that every hospital across the country is practicing the exact same methods? Your hospital might be stellar. Others might be abysmal. There is a reason why Ob/Gyn malpractice insurance is through the roof.

            Did you read that link i provided about the doctor who kept throwing hissy fits and threatening the patient that she “needed to feel pain” because she hadn’t called in advance to announce her birth? Read it before you get all “uppity”. I am not off the wall… I AM concerned about how humans treat one another… and I AM very protective of both mothers and children.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Malpractice insurance is through the roof because there is so much at stake.

          • attitude devant

            What in the world is a Rockefeller medical system?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            It’s part of a conspiracy. Rockefeller, Rothschilds and Bill Gates are all out to poison and sicken the common man. Jews are usually involved in some way.

            Conspiracy Theory 101.

            I love people like Patricia. They make their “side” (the anti-vax, alt-med side) look like the batshit-crazy people they truly are.

          • sdsures

            When all else fails, round up the Jews. Sigh.

          • SporkParade

            Well, we’re evil baby cutters and responsible for all the world’s wars according to Patricia.

          • sdsures

            Ha!

          • sdsures

            We’re also responsible for bagels, cream cheese and lox. YUM!

          • Samantha06

            I don’t have to read anything you provide, Patricia. Your obnoxiousness is only overshadowed by your ignorance. I’ve worked in 5 different hospitals in the US and Canada in L&D, Pediatrics and NICU and I’ve witnessed awesome, compassionate care delivered by the best doctors and nurses in medicine. I’m sorry you have such limited knowledge of medicine and of the healthcare system. As I always tell people who are convinced they know more than those of us who actually work in the field: Spend a week or two with me in the real world.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Hmm… where have I heard that before… “Don’t confuse me with the facts.” Perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the forest? I’m a connect-the-dots, big picture person myself.

          • Samantha06

            Then please connect the dots Patricia.

          • LibrarianSarah

            In what world are hearsay, baseless conjecture and conspiracy theories considered “facts.”

          • yugaya

            But she has HEARD ” – and it is documented – that when doctors go on strike or go away to war, that the death rate at home decreases significantly.”

            If someone was to write a parody with the subject of anti-medical quackery I doubt it could ever get this ridiculous.

          • sdsures

            Somehow I don’t think an answer to my question is forthcoming.

          • Who?

            Mine either…

          • sdsures

            Would it help if I hummed the “Jeopardy” theme?

          • Amazed

            In the world that lets Patricia charge 175 bucks for doing nothing but deceiving people that she’s helping them recover after they were cruelly violated in the hospital.

            She’s fighting to put bread on the table, so she’s immune to reason and I am quite surprised that so many of you are willing to debate reasonably with her. She won’t accept anything that puts her turf, aka the chance to make money on feeding people’s distrust of conventional medicine, in danger.

          • Medwife

            Here’s how it goes: you have someone whose baby is safer outside than in. You can either induce them or go straight to section. You get mom to have contractions strong enough to effect some cervical change, and the baby, who is not well supported in its intrauterine environment HENCE THE INDUCTION, can’t handle it. So you stop the pit or pull the cervadil and or give the terb and you go to the OR. Patricia: “OMG YOU PITTED TO DISTRESS!!1!!” Ok, should’ve we have just sectioned the mom immediately, without trying for a non surgical birth? Or let the baby die in utero?

          • Samantha06

            Absolutely. But we have to remember who we are dealing with: a hypno-regression-therapy-astrologist….. she will NEVER get it!

        • Bombshellrisa

          Nice of you to gloss over the fact that there are women who have truly been in situations where they have felt violated so you can jump back on your bandwagon of “evil interventions” and how babies should be born in a cave,

        • Who?

          You skipped sdsures question-choose one: live baby or ‘awesome’ experience.

          We’ll overlook the messed up thinking that recognises, as an awesome experience, one that includes the avoidable death of another person.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I answered it. How many “emergencies” are iatrogenic? If there is a legitimate emergency, then yes, of course, you want to have a doctor on staff who can step in and help. But what I hear mostly is that too much “help” actually creates an emergency.

          • Who?

            Goodoh, progress. I must have missed your answer in all the talk about ‘pit distress’.

            So now we run into the real issue: do you contend that all issues that arise when a labouring woman is attended by medical professionals are iatrogenic? Or are there some that are part of a normal birth and would happen wherever she was?

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I am aware that birth problems can occur, but I contend that they occur WAY out of proportion in our country. We are WAY down the chart in infant mortality and also maternal mortality – this is disgraceful and tragic. It doesn’t need to be. But if/when the birth is forced to suit the ‘handlers’, the more the babies – and mothers – suffer.

          • Who?

            Thanks for that-we are doing so well here.

            So, given that there is a range of normal (horrible judgemental word, but it suits our purpose for now), how far should a woman in labour allow that to go before asking for help?

            My assumption here, perhaps incorrect, is that an optimum outcome is healthy mum, healthy baby.

            Is it right for labouring mum to take a medical specialist’s advice on a course of action to achieve an optimum outcome-healthy mum, healthy baby-or should she wait until it is very clear (even to her, a non expert in delivery) that there is a serious problem unfolding? If the latter, presumably that variation of normal, which might lead to death or permanent harm if not dealt with, will not count as an iatrogenic injury or death if saving or helping mum or baby isn’t possible at that late stage.

            And the US is not way down the mortality scales for babies or mums, that is nonsense no matter how many times you say it.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            From https://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/contraception-journal/march-2011

            Maternal Mortality in the United States:

            A Human Rights Failure
            Francine Coeytaux, Debra Bingham, Nan Strauss

            With 99% of maternal deaths occurring in developing countries, it is too often assumed that maternal mortality is not a problem in wealthier countries. Yet, statistics released in September of 2010 by the United Nations place the United States 50th in the world for maternal mortality — with maternal mortality ratios higher than almost all European countries, as well as several countries in Asia and the Middle East… See more at the link.

            From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/infant-death-rate-in-us_n_3237776.html

            Infant Death Rate: U.S. Falls Behind 68 Countries, According To Save The Children

            Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Senior Writer
            Published: 05/07/2013 03:52 PM EDT on MyHealthNewsDaily

            The United States does not fare well in a new report looking at the percentage of babies that die the day they are born.

            In that report, the United States falls behind 68 other countries, including Mexico, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, in terms of its rate of deaths on the first day of life. Yearly, about 11,300 U.S. babies die the day they’re born, according to the report from the charity organization Save the Children.

          • Who?

            Fascinating, seen it, it’s cherry-picked to make your point.

            To my question-if a woman, against medical advice, persists in labour, and when she does agree to intervention-when it is an emergency-is any damage counted, in your eyes, as iatrogenic, or is it a result of persisting with a version of normal that leads to a less than optimum outcome?

          • Bombshellrisa

            That is what we get for having diversity-lets just make sure nobody who is poor, older than 35 or anything other than white and middle class and upper middle class gives birth! Those numbers would look better then AND the “handlers” as you put it might actually be more hands off, probably CPMs. You are acting like the problem IS the medical community, when the problems are really things like SES, race and age.

          • Elizabeth A

            You’ve looked at a set of statistics, and given no thought to demographic causes, or even whether they’re the right statistics.

            Infant mortality is the number of children who die in the first year of life. It is not a measure of obstetrical care, but of pediatric care and social safety. The US has a lot of work to do there, but not necessarily obstetricians.

            The better measure of obstetrical care is neonatal mortality, and while there is still some improvement to be made, one reason the US has lower stats is that we count more babies as alive. Most countries don’t include babies born prior to 24 weeks in neonatal mortality statistics (and most countries won’t treat babies born before that gestation). The US counts them.

            Mothers in the US over the last few decades have tended to be older (more mothers, and far more first-time mothers, over 35), and heavier than mothers in prior decades, and often older than mothers in other countries. (This is a product of our poor social services. Because families understand they are basically on their own to care for their children, they wait to have them until they’ve achieved certain career goals and a greater measure of economic resources.) Both age and obesity increase the risk of maternal death.

            Obstetrics could stand to improve, but obstetrics is a factor that’s always improving. There are gifted, dedicated people sifting statistics, observing problems, and proposing improvements in obstetrics all the time, and change can happen really rapidly. By contrast, the social support services that would reduce infant mortality, attack the demographic issues behind maternal mortality, and make life better, safer and healthier for everyone are under attack by people who want to outright dismantle them.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            So you don’t think that neonatal deaths could have anything to do with hospital birthing practices? And death before year 1, vaccines?

            ‎May 7, 2013 … A new report reveals that the United States has the highest first-day infant death rate out of all the industrialized countries in the world. Read more at
            http://www.cbsnews.com/…/us-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of- industrialized-world-group-reports/

            U.S. Top of List for First-Day Deaths in Rich Nations…
            More babies die on their first day of life in the United States than in any other industrialized country. Read more at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130508-united-states-babies-newborn-mothers-infant-mortality-save-the-children/

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “So you don’t think that neonatal deaths could have anything to do with hospital birthing practices? And death before year 1, vaccines?”

            I’m breaking my advisory against engaging you.

            The vaccines on the US CDC recommended schedule protect infants against diseases which are particularly deadly when contracted by infants, including pertussis, diphtheria, and Haemophilus Influenza b (Hib).

            In 2010, over 9000 Californians contracted pertussis, and 10 infants died before they were old enough to be protected by the vaccine: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/25/226147147/vaccine-refusals-fueled-californias-whooping-cough-epidemic
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22819634

            The current outbreak (2013-14) has only cause the death of 3 infants: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_10-7-2014.pdf

            For to you to suggest that vaccines are contributing to infant mortality rather than lowering it shows yet again that you have limited understanding of anything about anything related to biology, physiology, or medicine — and that includes your own field of (I paraphrase) “I heal people by helping them relax.”

            Sorry, Patricia, but you are nothing but a hypotherapist crank calling herself a Patricia Robinett
            So you don’t think that neonatal deaths could have anything to do with hospital birthing practices? And death before year 1, vaccines?
            I’m breaking my advisory against engaging you.
            The vaccines on the US CDC recommended schedule protect infants against diseases which are particularly deadly when contracted by infants, including pertussis, diphtheria, and Haemophilus Influenza b (Hib).
            In 2010, over 9000 Californians contracted pertussis, and 10 infants died before they were old enough to be protected by the vaccine: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/25/226147147/vaccine-refusals-fueled-californias-whooping-cough-epidemic
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22819634
            The current outbreak (2013-14) has only cause the death of 3 infants: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_10-7-2014.pdf

            For to you to suggest that vaccines are contributing to infant mortality rather than lowering it shows yet again that you have limited understanding of anything about anything related to biology, physiology, or medicine — and that includes your own field of (I paraphrase) “I heal people by helping them relax.”

            Sorry, Patricia, but you are nothing but a crank billing herself as a hypnotherapist. Find some place else to try drum up your business.

          • Box of Salt

            Oh for crying out loud . . . why isn’t there a preview function?

            Everything is in there twice!

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I think it’s important to keep the body – and especially the bloodstream – clean of pollutants, don’t you? You see, Salt, this is my concern – you can’t really treat the body as a machine, for it is not. it is a living organism and it is connected to a life that is affected by trauma and toxins, fear and dread. It appears to me as if the system likes to work as mechanics work and then expect the person to carry on as if nothing happened, when they have been sliced open, poisoned with drugs… do you see what I mean? I’ve been one who has had to pick up the pieces – my own life and my clients. Now, I don’t blame any particular persons for this but I do have to submit that people have to be way disconnected from their instincts and hearts to do something like cut the healthy skin off a baby’s penis or gleefully slice open a woman’s womb. You see, you all might have seen the great movie called “hospital birth” but I’ve been behind the scenes with the victims of the show. And it isn’t pretty. The system as it is leaves a long trail of disaster in its wake. People, to me, are more important than doing things on a timetable. And it’s vital for MDs and nurses to get back in touch with their humanity. If you were to think about it for even a moment – sincerely think about it – there is NO way you could (not that you personally do, but some do) cut a baby’s penis or subject a woman to pit-to-distress. If you were truly in your heart, you would hold her hand, hold her baby as if it was the most precious thing in HER world, at least, and listen to her, talk with her… See what I mean? I know there are always a few real gems in the field… and yet there are also a few real rascals, abusers, who need to either specialize in something harmless, like performing autopsies.

          • Dr Kitty

            My perfect organism had an ovarian cyst, which ruptured, spilling several hundred mls of serosanguinous fluid into may abdomen.
            I developed a high fever, severe pain and all the signs of peritonitis.

            I was poisoned with drugs (morphine, antibiotics) and sliced open (three 2mm laparoscopic incisions). All of the fluid from the cyst and my perfectly healthy appendix were taken from my body.

            Amazingly, I do indeed manage to carry on as if nothing happened and was back at work 10 days later.

            Medicine isn’t perfect, but it works a hell of a lot better than placebos, meditation and astrology.

            Patricia, how would YOU have treated that ruptured ovarian cyst for me? Would you have helped me to relax and accept the situation as I writhed in pain and died from sepsis? Would you have drawn me up an astrology chart and hypnotised me?
            What kind of actual use would you have been?

            I’ll tell you.
            You’d have been as much use a chocolate teapot.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Well, let’s see… people never came to me for cysts, but they did come to me because they wanted to stop eating wheat and sugar and to be weaned from the teats of cows. Kitty, I suspect that your cyst did not come out of nowhere. Or did it? Did it just jump out of nowhere and say, “GOTCHA!”? That’s not usually how it works. Health is usually related to lifestyle.

            Most health problems can be solved very simply by avoiding the SAD – Standard American Diet…. See “Diet for a New America” by John Robbins… VERY informative, very well resarched… and most of his citations come from the US Govt. . The author’s father was the “Robbins” in Baskin-Robbins. John and his father did not see eye to eye about health, either. John felt that B-R was hurting people by feeding them sugar and dairy… so John turned his back on the family fortune, became a psychologist, and he and his father had not spoken for years when the father had a massive heart attack. After a lengthy surgery, when he went for a checkup, his physician said, “I have a book I want you to read.” He handed the father John’s book, “Diet for a New America.” John and his now-healthy father are good friends at last.

            If you are an MD, I’m sure you see on a daily basis, people who eat whatever they want and then expect a doctor to fix them. Grownups take responsibility for their health and choose wisely. Perhaps you could help them with a little hypnosis. Many doctors and dentists use hypnosis in their practices.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Victim blaming!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Some conditions are better controlled by eating a certain diet, but you don’t create conditions by thinking things and your body doesn’t create ovarian cysts because you eat sugar and wheat. There is that privilege again. The idea that people just need to cut out whole food groups and eat healthier and problem solved reeks of privilege. When you have $10 per month from WIC to spend on non organic fruits and vegetables and apples are $1.99 a pound, you do what you can. Of course, these people can’t afford your advice, so I don’t think you would care much about them in the first place.

          • Who?

            All for avoiding the SAD, but who needs help to do it? BR don’t hurt people by feeding them sugar, they make icecream available for sale, that people can choose or not, to buy.

            This victim nonsense drives your business model. Grownups taking responsibility don’t go to charlatans to learn to not eat sugar and gluten, or to get calm either.

          • yugaya

            “people did come to me because they
            wanted… to be weaned from the teats of
            cows.”

            It’s the blind leading the…seriously disturbed.

          • sdsures

            Why can’t people make dietary changes without Patricia’s assistance? About 6 months ago, I had to switch to goat milk because of adult-onset allergy to moo milk, and I did it ALLLLLL by myself, Mommy.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Because you can’t hypnotize yourself? I don’t know, when someone like this does bits and pieces of everything (hypnotherapy, astrology, nutrition and all other woo) I believe they are trying to find as many ways to hoodwink people as possible all in the name of “helping”. Ever notice how someone with an alternative health certification can “do it all” but a doctor or nurse who has seen it all is reluctant to speak outside of their specialty?

          • sdsures

            Indeed. As far as self-hypnosis, it is actually possible, but it’s usually done with things like mp3 recordings as an aid to help you relax, control your breathing, etc. Adam Eason is one example.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            My! My! “Judge not.”

          • Dr Kitty

            Love it!
            You’re not judging, but you heavily imply that if I had a “better” diet and lifestyle I wouldn’t have had an ovarian cyst.

            Not how endometriosis works Patricia.

            And as it happens I can walk around with an extremely large endometrioma on one of my ovaries for weeks without any symptoms at all until it ruptures.

          • Who?

            Show us the way Patricia, I’m sure with all your healing vibes we’ll be there in no time. Unfortunately you won’t be able to turn a dollar out of it though, but since you’re so unconcerned about money that shouldn’t worry you at all.

          • SporkParade

            So, in other words, you are inspired by a story about a son estranging his father for not having healthy eating habits?

          • Who?

            Oh but if you had gone to Patricia for years, as well as a cyst you would have had the guilt of knowing you weren’t good enough at whatever to stop it coming.

            That’s value!

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “I am passionate about dissing the medical model.”

            Perhaps you should apply more effort into understanding the basics of biology and chemistry, instead of posting comments on someone else’s website which repeatedly demonstrate your lack of knowledge.

            But I guess it’s easier for someone like you to mock what you don’t wish to understand.

            It’s a lot easier just to promote fear, and sell a way out of it, isn’t it, Patricia, Madam hypnotherapist?

          • araikwao

            Well, if you want to keep the bloodstream “clean of pollutants”, you’d better stop cleaning your teeth. 1 in 5 episodes result in a transient bacteraemia! And this horror is being covered up.by Big Dental!! Every day, millions of innocent people are exposed to bacteria.in their bloodstream!!!!!!
            I think you are escalating into a Gish gallop, I really do. I’ll just leave the rest..

          • Karen in SC

            On the contrary, the body, and every living cell, are great examples of chemical factories! Chemical reactions are responsible for respiration, digestion, excretion, and more. The gastric juices are very acidic and break down molecules to be digested, the liver cleans other impurities.

          • Samantha06

            And WE see the tragic results of the quackery you sell to vulnerable people, and “it ain’t pretty.” WE end up cleaning up the mess and trying to repair the damage your “gentle birth” friends, the NCB crowd, inflict on unsuspecting women and their babies. Dr. Amy has you pegged. I think you’re very angry,( and we’ve seen lots of examples in the way you’ve tried to bait, patronize and mock us,) and you’re determined to try to insult and demean medical professionals, to try to make yourself feel better. To make comments like, “It’s vital for MDs and nurses to get back in touch with their humanity”… and.. ” truly in your heart, you would hold her hand, hold her baby as if it was the most precious thing in HER world, at least, and listen to her, talk with her”… These despicable remarks are perfect examples, but you already know that. I think I’m quite “in touch with my humanity”, Patricia. Here’s an example: I worked 12 hours today, Patricia (and on Thanksgiving). I participated in 4 births. I held those lovely mothers’ hands while they pushed their babies out; calmed their fears, coached and encouraged them when they cried and said they just couldn’t do it. Oh, and cleaned their bottoms of blood and amniotic fluid.. (and I would bet BIG MONEY you’ve never done that!) Then I actually helped them nurse their babies immediately after birth, AND.. they were skin to skin! OMG! Aren’t these the *very things* your NCB friends say DON’T happen in hospital births? So glad you’ve revealed your true self to us, Patricia! Lots of people, hopefully potential clients, will read what you’ve posted on this blog, see you for what you are and run the other way. And, if you show up at any of our hospitals, at least we’ll have a heads up on what we will be dealing with.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            CONGRATULATIONS and THANKS to you and your hospital for being more of what I would like to see in the world.

          • Bombshellrisa

            It’s pretty standard stuff she is talking about-and with the push for more and more hospitals to be officially “Baby Friendly” it will be a rare hospital indeed that doesn’t push skin to skin immediately.
            Since you have not had children and are not a medical professional, why do you feel you know what the standard protocols are in hospitals? Don’t tell me what your friends have told you, at least look at the major hospitals close to you and read what they talk about when they talk about their birth units.

          • Samantha06

            In 13 years of working in L&D, in 5 different hospitals in 2 countries, this was and is the rule, rather than the exception of the way nurses and doctors treat patients. So, yes, your critique of doctors and nurses not being in touch with their humanity is despicable. I think we are done here.

          • AlisonCummins

            How do you know Samantha 06’s hospital is in any way different from most hospitals today?

          • sdsures

            Any time you equate doctors with Nazism is despicable.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            What an odd statement to make. There were Nazi doctors, you know. And they were imported to the U.S. – and to Russia – after WWII. Do your research.

          • sdsures

            Modern doctors, Patricia, MODERN. DOCTORS.

          • Bombshellrisa

            “important to keep the body – and especially the bloodstream – clean of pollutants” The dreaded toxins talk-Patricia, everyone has toxins floating around in their bloodstream. It’s what happens every time you have a bowel movement. Fear, dread and trauma have nothing to do with it.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Risa, I usually ignore your comments because you call yourself a bombshell and your comments do not usually concern me all that much, but you have outdone yourself here. Bloodstream and bowels… hmm… please try to picture this in your mind… tap water system and toilet water…

            In the olden days, the only time the bloodstream was opened was when it was wounded, and at that time it would do what was called, “bleed” so that the blood would flush out anything untoward that might try to infect the pristine bloodstream. In the olden days, poisons were not injected into the bloodstream in the hope of making one “healthy”. And, sorry, but I do not buy the idea that we are healthier now thanks to modern medicine. I have avoided modern medicine for over 30 years and have not had a cold or flu or headache or any other symptom in all that time, whereas I was always sick as a child when my mother would take me frequently to the doctor.

            Not everyone has all these toxins (that are common ingredients in vaccines) floating around in their bloodstreams: mercury – “exposure to mercury, even small amounts, may cause serious health problems” – and aluminum – “which has been implicated as a potential risk factor in Alzheimer’s Disease (AD) and cognitive impairment” – and formaldehyde – “research studies of workers exposed to formaldehyde have suggested an association between formaldehyde exposure and several cancers” – and glutaraldehyde – “a toxic chemical that is used as a cold sterilant to disinfect and clean heat-sensitive medical equipment” – and MSG – “MSG exposure causes muscle tightness, fatigue, numbness or tingling, and flushing in sensitive people” – and stabilizers and preservatives and ‘enhancers’ and sucrose and mannose and fructose and dextrose and potassium phosphate and plasdone and lactose and cellulose and magnesium stearate and cellulose acetate phthalate and alcohol and acetone and castor oil and FD&C Yellow #6 aluminum lake dye (why dye in vaccines?) and human serum albumin and fetal bovine serum and egg protein and sodium bicarbonate and human-diploid fibroblast cell cultures (WI-38) and Dulbecco’s Modified Eagle’s Medium and monosodium glutamate semi-synthetic medium and ethanol and phenol and detergent and polysorbate 80 and monkey cells and live viruses – and dead viruses – and so on and so forth. Not a cocktail anyone would want to ingest. And not a cocktail I would want to inject into anyone’s bloodstream – especially someone I loved.

            Some of these things, such as mercury and MSG, are not recommended for ingestion, and yet the digestive system is better equipped to rapidly discard poisonous substances than the bloodstream.

            The bloodstream is not much like a colon. The bloodstream recycles through the body, carrying away debris from cells. From there the debris goes to the liver and kidneys and the colon is last in line – intended to throw the accumulated waste (mostly from foods) out. The bloodstream in a healthy person does not contribute a huge amount to the ‘outgo’ pile.

            The bloodstream is a closed system that is not meant to be defiled. When the body is cut, it bleeds, specifically to flush out the wound. It bleeds to maintain its pristine, closed-system status. It is not designed to be forced to take in concoctions “invented” by perhaps well-meaning but misguided humans. There are much better ways to take care of bodies. How to achieve radiant health is not taught in med schools, but we would be much better off if it was.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I am indeed a bombshell, pinup girl clothing and I are best buds. I am also a nurse. When you poop, bacteria is released into your blood stream. Simple. So avoid whatever toxins you want, your body already makes and eliminates them NATURALLY.

          • sdsures

            Not to mention the hard-working liver and kidneys!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Patricia-it’s simple. You poop, bacteria enters your blood stream. So don’t worry about keeping your body free of “toxins”-your body produces plenty of them.
            I have no idea why you would ignore someone because they are a bombshell. We don’t ignore you because you are an astrologer and hypnotist

          • josh

            Just because we all have toxins in your bodies does not make it a good thing. People actually will say this like its normal and then wonder why so many in the US are chronically sick. The various kinds of toxins inside the body are one of the reason and should be avoided not used as medicine. This should be common sense.

          • Bombshellrisa

            We don’t use E. coli or group b strep as medicine.
            Common sense tells people that if you are so worried about “toxins” and chemical burden that you justify ignoring medicine that has been tested and researched in favor of ancient or Eastern medicine which hasn’t been, you are very privileged indeed. Enjoy that.

          • josh

            Everyone should be worried about toxin as they are indeed toxic after all. Im not sure but it looks as though you are saying they are ok to be injected as part of “medicine”. With is crazy.
            Im really not sure why you brought up E.coli or group b strep as they are bacteria and not toxins. Unless you thought I was including them as a toxin.
            Btw, ancient and eastern medicine has indeed been studied and has more evidence for success than most of the allopathic pharmaceutical counterparts. Do you think Hippocrates and other medicine men of his time just made lucky guesses when recommending treatment options?

          • Box of Salt

            “they are bacteria”
            Diptheria..
            Tetanus.
            Perussis.
            All bacteria, which produce toxins that kill humans.
            Ricin.
            Tetraodonitidae.
            Should we go on?

            ” Do you think Hippocrates and other medicine men of his time just made lucky guesses when recommending treatment options?’

            Possibly. It was a long time ago. Do you think no other “medicine men” have learned about new treatment options since then?

          • josh

            Where did I ever say bacteria can’t produce toxins? I said that was not what was brought up. Environmental toxins were.
            Your last paragraph is also irrelevant to this conversation. Bombshell made the claim that ancient and Chinese medicines were not researched. Which is not factual. Of course doctors are now being taught new pharmaceutical treatment option, at the expense of the public, trading in natural compounds found in plants herbs and spices that allow the body to heal, for synthetic versions that have been changed just enough that it can be patentable, that don’t work nearly as well and have side effects.
            I’m not saying there is no merit in modern medical, they are very good at trauma but this pill for every I’ll mentality is not the answer. The US accounts for something like 50 percent of the pharmaceutical taken each year, we are also the mist chronically unhealthy first world nation on the planet.

          • Who?

            I can see the world from your perspective is a scary place. Your perspective is flawed.

            There are plenty of actual things to worry about-how to feed everyone, what is happening to our climate, how to manage antibiotic resistance-without getting worked up about a lot of made up stories designed to part you from your autonomy, money and sanity, not necessarily in that order.

          • josh

            You clearly know nothing of my perspective. I am not scared into believing we need to take injections that are filled with extremely dangerous toxins or that I need to take synthetic crap for everything.
            You on the other hand seem to fear these thing along with fearing the climate and sthe world starving and bacteria that is adapting and becoming resistant to man made antibiotics. I don’t fear these things like you do. The first 2 were thought up by business men for greed. .Monsanto used this idea to push there seeds on the people and al gore pushed global warming BC he stood to gain billions from carbon taxing. I don’t fear the bacteria that is resistant to man made antibiotics BC I don’t use them and use natural antibiotics instead. They actually work with no side effects and don’t kill beneficial bacteria.
            I have no idea what you bare talking about with the “fake stories thatpart me from your autonomy, money and sanity”. Nothing I said in that comment is close to being fake or a story.

          • Dr Kitty

            So Josh, which specific environmental toxins would you like to discuss?
            Which living organisms produce them?
            How are they harming us?
            If possible can you include detailed biochemical analysis of the mechanisms of action and the specific metabolic pathways these toxins disrupt?

            Thanks

          • josh

            Are you really going to act like things like mercury, alluminum , msg and formaldehyde are not used in the creation of vaccines?

          • Box of Salt

            josh

            A l u m i n u m.

            Only one “L,” even if you use the British spelling aluminium.

            H i l l e m a n

            If you want to criticize someone, at least spell his name right!

            I understand that you might think science is hard, but spelling’s fairly easy. Or maybe it’s not, if you’re getting your information through videos on the internet.

            I read.

            I recommend that you try that.

            “we are also the mist chronically unhealthy first world nation on the planet.”

            If you think that is a problem, stop voting for politicians who think only the wealthy deserve good care.

          • josh

            Ad Homs are fun aren’t they? Your best argument is to attack typos and weak personal attacks while never addressing the content in the comment. Sounds about right.
            Do you not think its a problem that the us is the most diseased first world country? But you think that it could be fixed by voting for the right side Lol. There is no difference between the two parties, at least not at the national level. They are all bought and paid for by big business. Just look at the campaign contributions of the last few Presidental elections. The donations come from the same places, the only difference is slight difference in the amount given. This is why nothing changes. But that is really not on the subject of toxins in vaccines now is it?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Are we the most diseased because we have people counting things like adrenal fatigue, leaky gut and body burden as diseases? Most likely because people still have limited access to good healthcare, wait longer to get diagnosed and it costs money to take the medicine and get the follow up care needed.

          • josh

            No we are the most diseased first world country because statistics say so. Compare the rates of disease that is rampant in the US with the rates found in other first world countries and its not even close. The rates of obesity, cancer and heart disease are insane here in the US.

          • Bombshellrisa

            You do understand that is more because of race, SES and lack of access to care then toxins ?

          • josh

            Absolutely not. The care here in the US is up to part with the European counterparts. What I do understand about your comment is its a guess with no scientific reasoning behind it.
            Here are some facts, the us eats far more processed foods than other countries. Our government also allows A LOT of harmful toxins inside your food and beverages that most other first world countries have long since ban. Add in the fact that we use around 50% of the pharmaceuticals that are consumed in the world annually and it becomes clear that it isn’t because of race or access to care. In fact if it were because people couldn’t get into doctors we you not consumer as much pharmaceuticals.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Not a guess-an observation from treating people who have complications from illness. Anyway, try avoiding processed food while in WIC and food stamps. $10 a month for fresh, non organic fruits and vegetables for a family of four will not get you that far. Race has a lot to do with much of the chronic illness and complications and lack of access to care. Try being a woman of color on Medicaid or Medicaid and see how far your rant about pharmaceuticals gets you.

          • Dr Kitty

            Josh there are public health experts who look at this stuff you know. People who compare care regimes in different countries all over the world.

            I’m afraid the consensus is very much with Risa on this.
            The USA has problems with socioeconomic disparity and inequality, a more racially diverse population and an issue with access to care and medications.
            The USA also has a bigger problems with drugs, a higher percentage of the population incarcerated and a bigger HIV/AIDs and homelessness problem than most other developed nations.

            In other words- it’s not vaccines, “toxins” and high fructose corn syrup.

          • josh

            How in the world can you claim the problem in the us is we don’t have access to medication, when we make up around 5% of the world population and consume over 50% of the pharmaceutical s used world wide each year?
            Not being able to get to medication is clearly not the problems. Over medication maybe, but not getting access is not.
            Only “experts” with conflicts of interest with big pharma would look at stats like this and deem lack of medication is the problem. Other first world countries use far less and are far healthier!!!

          • Mishimoo

            ‘Adrenal fatigue’ is quite easily one of my most hated phrases. I’ve had several well-meaning people try to insist that my medical diagnoses are wrong, and all that is wrong with me is adrenal fatigue because of the dark circles around my eyes. I should lay off the coffee, severely restrict my diet to ‘fix’ it, and take these supplements that their friend just so happens to sell.

          • Who?

            Take yourself down to your local Boutique de Lovely Makeup (in Australia, Mecca) and get some Touche Veloute Lightening Concealer (brand, By Terry) which will cover your dark rings like they were never there. And it doesn’t cake. Bliss.

            No kidding, it is amazing. Get the girls to give you a tutorial in using it, you and your glowing eyes wil never look back. And you won’t hear another word about adrenal fatigue.

          • Mishimoo

            Oooh thanks! That sounds awesome, I’ll give it a shot. I’ve been meaning to check out Mecca for some time now – they stock Ellis Faas, and I really want to try their blood coloured lipsticks/glazes. I mean, since I’m already a ‘psychopathic’ pro-vaxxer, I may as well look the part. ;)

          • Who?

            It is amazing. I made them put it on me and wore it for the day, because I feared it would cake, but it doesn’t. People keep telling me how good I look after my holiday, but I know it is really my secret makeup weapon.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Blood colored?

          • Mishimoo

            Yes! I saw it on tumblr and was surprised that it actually exists. There’s dark and bright ‘blood’ colours as well as other ones, and it doesn’t look like a pink-red. Here’s the link: http://www.ellisfaas.com/collection/lips/creamy-lips/l101-ellis-red

          • Who?

            They are gorgeous. I have developed a very bad Chantacaille habit thanks to Mecca, the most beautiful clear colours for lips and cheeks which look even better with my un-ringed eyes.

            I do love makeup…

          • Mishimoo

            Ooh yay, more things to check out! I wasn’t really a make-up person, but I’m starting to get over the whole ‘vanity’ thing and am learning to do nice things for myself.

          • Who?

            Delighted to hear it.

            The girls and boys there are lovely, they will demonstrate on you how to use the products so you can manage them at home, and give you samples as well. It’s very non-threatening, unlike a lot of makeup places, and if one brand doesn’t suit they will keep looking until they find something you are happy with. And they have a nice range of prices too.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks! Sounds like I’ll have to organise a day to go with my little sister before she leaves town.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Oh the dreaded under eye circles! When I was a student midwife, there was an ND student who suggested selenium and detoxing for mine. They are genetic (cause race/ethnicity). I want some of that by Terry stuff. I don’t want to hear the words adrenal fatigue or detox or suggestions of milk thistle.

          • Who?

            It is the biz. Not only will you look great but you will be saved from hearing nonsense too.

          • Box of Salt

            josh: “Ad Homs”?

            “Your best argument is to attack typos and weak personal attacks while never addressing the content in the comment.”

            Had I thought you knew what you were talking about, I might have addressed your content. But you’re using terminology (e.g., toxin) you don’t understand, because you think it sounds scary!

            And you were not presenting your position well.

            Guess what, josh? I have succeeded in at least one thing. You’re now paying more attention to how you write.

            As for the “toxins in vaccines”? I prefer DTaP and TDaP over the actual diseases. I want the children I have to outlive me. The vaccines make that more likely.

          • josh

            So the things I have listed as known toxins like aluminum and mercury are not toxins? Please do explain what a toxin is then.

          • Stacy48918

            Nice try. You are the one obsessed with the idea of toxins. Let’s make sure YOU have a good working definition of the very substances YOU are so worried about.

            Define “toxin” for us, please.

          • Dr Kitty

            A “toxin” in woo world is anything which is known to be fatal in large enough doses, so they tell you to avoid even trace amounts.

            Except EVERTHING, including NaCl, H2O and O2, can be fatal in large enough doses.

            Most things, in small doses, will do very little harm, because we have evolved to maintain homeostasis and get rid of toxic metabolites pretty well.

            Personally, when it comes to diet, I try to live my life by three, very deep, very spiritual, very simple rules.
            I will share them with you for free.

            1. Everything in moderation.
            2. A little bit of what you fancy does you good
            3. What is the point of living to 110 by eating nothing but brown rice and steamed vegetables if you have to live to 110 by eating nothing but brown rice and steamed vegetables?

          • josh

            Yes I know that anything in high enough doses will cause a toxicological response. I also know that the human body has very good defense mechanism to excrete toxins. The digestive tract has been shown to excrete almost all the aluminum that happens to get digested and less than one percent makes it to the bloodstream with the kidneys can usually easily handle the rest. The problem with injecting them is it by passes the defence mechanisms leaving the kidneys to filter out all of it. They also deem the dose in vaccines safe to inject because of studies conducted on dietary aluminum. 25mcg of aluminum that enters the body via digestion is far less dangerous than 25mcg entering via injection.
            BTW I live by very similar rules as you do.

          • Box of Salt

            25 mcg is 0.00000088 ounces.

            I considered converting the amount into teaspoons, but that seems kind of useless consiiering the amount.

            Please tell me again why I should be more afraid of that amount of aluminum than myself or my children suffering infectious disease.

          • Box of Salt

            Alert the press! Typos!

            I lost a “D”

            ^considering.

          • Box of Salt

            josh “So the things I have listed as known toxins like aluminum and mercury are not toxins? Please do explain what a toxin is then.”

            Aluminum is the most abundant metal on earth. It’s everywhere. Ingesting large amounts of it – or of anything else of that matter – isn’t good for you. The dose makes the poison. We’ve known that since the 16th century (Paracelsus).

            Mercury? One of those substances that are more harmful at a smaller dose, but as part of a toxic (not toxin!) compound, the thimerosal which kills bacteria
            that might contaminate vaccines is not going to harm humans, even when they’re only a few pounds/kilos as infants.

            Toxin? It’s defined as a substance made by a living organism (such as a bacterium) which harms other organisms.

          • Stacy48918

            Do you even understand what an “ad hom” is? It’s not correcting a typo. And why wouldn’t you want to look more intelligent by communicating accurately?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Cause anyone who questions medicine and big Pharma is ALREADY intelligent, dontcha know? It’s all that edumacation and research, plus wheat germ and cannabis oil. Don’t need no stinkin degree in medicine to be intelligent!

          • josh

            You should try a little harder with reading comprehension before you talk about someone else’s intelligence. I said his/her’s best argument is to attack typos AND weak personal attacks against me. The latter is clearly what I mean by using ad hominem’s. Although, maybe it is you that doesn’t understand what they are…

          • Dr Kitty

            Mercury and aluminium are elements. Therefore, using your own definition of “toxin” they aren’t toxins, because they are not produced as a metabolic by-product.

            MSG is just a sodium atom stuck onto the amino acid glutamate. It’s found in seaweed. Nothing wrong with it. The cultures you hold up as superior have been eating major amounts of it for centuries.

            There is more formaldehyde in a pack of cigarettes and more Mercury in a big plate of tuna sashimi than in a vaccine. I’d pick something else to worry about.

          • josh

            Msg is made by bonding a sodium particle to l glutamic acid. It is a patentent product and not found in nature like l glutamuc acid is.
            There may be more formaldehyde in cigarettes, more mercury in tuna and more aluminum in breast milk but non of these tjings are injected into the bloodstream. They have to make it past the bodies natural defense mechanism, the digestive tract and respiratory tract, before it making its way to the bloodstream. When you inject them into the muscle via vaccination there is zero mechanisms to excrete them before they can hit the bloodstream. In other words there is a huge difference in ingesting a toxin and injevting.

          • Stacy48918

            Josh, please name for me one single vaccine that is “injected into the bloodstream”.

          • Bombshellrisa

            The experimental Ebola vaccine maybe, but again, that would hardly be a bad thing. OT but I remember what you said the other night about the Mendolsohn book. Does it factor into the discussion here at all and at any rate, what made shredding it therapeutic?

          • Stacy48918

            My husband is anti-vaccine, he bought the book, believed what was written in it. Two months ago I moved out and filed for divorce. VERY therapeutic, since physical violence is usually frowned upon. He is currently going to fight me legally to avoid having the children go to the doctor and start vaccines.

          • Mishimoo

            I was about to ask how everything is going for you and your munchkins. I hope everything works out in your favour.

          • Stacy48918

            Mishimoo, thanks for asking. Things are going well. I am freer and happier than I have been in years. Found some excellent material on verbal abuse, a wonderful article by Vyckie Garrison and really finally understood what was wrong in my marriage. Hubby is likely going to fight me having the kids vaccinated and enrolled in public school but thankfully there is legal precedent for both. It will happen, but it may be messy and more prolonged. I’m hopeful his lawyer will talk sense into him “Dude, you really don’t want to say that in front of the judge, you’re going to look like an idiot.”

          • Mishimoo

            I’m so glad that you’re happier and freer, that’s awesome. It’s great that you have the legal precedent on your side, hopefully it’ll work out smoother than expected.

            Oh! I’ve read some of her articles too. As messed up as it is, it’s nice to know that I’m not alone. (I grew up in that sort of environment)

          • An Actual Attorney

            Stacy, I’m glad to hear you are well and moving on. Your posts about your marriage have worried me in the past, but it wasn’t my place to speak about your marriage and religious faith. It’s still not, but I do want you to know that at least one anonymous Internet commenter is happy for you and wishes you much strength.

          • Stacy48918

            Thank you Attorney. I appreciate your thoughts.

            As an aside, this is the article that really helped me see what was going on in my marriage. I thought I had heard of this woman through Dr. Amy before, but a quick search of her name doesn’t bring anything up. Basically, Quiverfull, had 2 HBA4Cs followed by an attempted HBA4C that turned in a UR. Now out and completely renouncing all of it. She’s wonderful and runs a great private support group on Facebook.

            http://www.alternet.org/belief/how-playing-good-christian-housewife-almost-killed-me

          • Dr Kitty

            I’m glad you’ve found support.
            I’ve read Vyckie’s No Longer Qivering site (because there is no “u” in Quiverfull) and she comes across as a very strong woman.

            Stacy, you just keep doing what you know to be right for your kids, and know we’re rooting for you.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            There is more than one anonymous commenter cheering for you, Stacy.

          • Stacy48918

            Thank you. :)

          • Bombshellrisa

            I didn’t mean to pry or bring up a sore subject. Wow, you are a courageous woman.
            My FIL was a privileged white guy who was anti vaccine, anti Western medicine, ect. It killed his wife when she was young and he ended up dying because those herbal remedies did nothing for him and his diabetes, blood pressure or heart disease after his MI. So good for you for not letting someone who doesn’t have sense volunteer your children to be test subjects in the antivax “measles/flu/whooping cough/mumps isn’t so bad” club.

          • Stacy48918

            Oh you’re not prying and it’s not a sore subject. All the emotional and verbal abuse I faced was behind closed doors. That’s the nature of abuse. So now I’m all about getting his craziness out in the open. He might fight this but I really doubt it will go well for him in court to stand up and explain why he doesn’t want his kids to have vaccines or go to public school.

          • josh

            Yes all are injected intramuscularly but there is on mechanism it excrete it so effectively they all are

          • Stacy48918

            “there is on mechanism it excrete it”
            What does that even mean?

            And, no, effectively they are not. “Injected intramuscularly” is not “injected into the bloodstream” Those are your words you know. The fact that you are arguing with yourself is really funny.

          • josh

            So answering your question is segueing with myself? I find it really funny that you think this.
            Where exactly do you think the ingredients from vaccines go after its shot into the muscle?
            If you would have actually read my whole comment you would know its about the difference between inhaling or digesting toxins and injecting them. Here’s a hint there is nothing stoping the ingredients from going directly to the bloodstream. Whereas, with digesting or inhaling the body has built in defence mechanisms to excrete the toxins protecting the bloodstream and organs. Maybe you have heard of them, they are the digestive and tracts.

          • Stacy48918

            It’s called the interstitium.

            I’d just like you to be a bit more precise so you don’t look ridiculous. Vaccines ARE NOT “injected into the bloodstream”. That statement is 100% patently false. That is purposefully false, inflammatory, uneducated rhetoric.

            There are plenty of things to prevent particles getting into the bloodstream. You’ve never heard of CELLS?

          • josh

            So aluminum getting into cells would be a good thing? Do you know what aluminium does once it is allowed to do that?

          • Who?

            So on your list of things bad for us, are cigarettes better or worse than vaccines?

          • Dr Kitty

            MSG can be made by fermenting seaweed.
            Your body is perfectly capable of snipping that sodium off and converting it to glutamate.
            When double blind studies were done one people who professed to have MSG toxicity side effects it was found to be a nocebo effect, not a true toxicity.

            90% of ingested methylmercury ends up in the bloodstream.

            Just how much Mercury and aluminium do you think they put in vaccines, and in what form (organic salts, inorganic salts, elemental metals-inquiring minds want to know)?

            .

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Considering that the stomach has a pH in the 1.5 – 3.5, that means MSG gets extensively protonated as soon as it hits the stomach.

          • Dr Kitty

            Are you going to answer any of the questions I asked you?

          • Bombshellrisa

            I studied that crap-it was my goal to be a midwife with my Naturopathic Medicine doctor license too. It is only the most privileged people who turn their nose up at modern medicine and then run screaming to it when their woo fails them. Even when you see an MD who works in a place that does only holistic cancer treatment, before you plunk down your 6k out of pocket, they will tell you that holistic remedies work slower, have to be taken a certain way religiously and may not produce the results desired when started with the cancer being advanced (or past stage 1). Some people will go into remission, most will not. I am reminded of a privileged, beautiful woman who flew all the way to Greece first class to have a quack there treat her Hodgkin’s lymphoma. She did the diet, took the herbs and endured the pain of the disease because she as told that the toxins from western medicine would make her more sick. She went into cardiac arrest one night at home, in front of her two little children, who saw the firemen and paramedics try to help her. She was DOA at the hospital. But hey, she didn’t let those toxins in Western medicine pollute her body. The two year old who watched his mom die that night is my husband.

          • josh

            Oh come on, people that distrust modern western medicine are not just rich privileged snobs lol.
            Also if anyone is paying 6k to a holistic cancer treatment is getting ripped off and needs to do some research in the many ways individuals have beat cancer by changing their diet. In doing so getting rid of the foods that hurt the immune system while feeding the cancer(like processed sugar) and add foods that are packed with nutrients that boost the immune system and allow it to fight the cancer.
            But this really has nothing at all to do with avoiding toxins and not injecting them into the blood stream

          • Bombshellrisa

            Josh-most holistic cancer treatments have diet plans tailored to whatever cancer the people present with. For instance, lung cancer would allow a patient to eat pork and mustard as part of their strict diet, while bladder and ovarian cancer diets would forbid both. Tomatoes and cheese would also be forbidden. Neither have anything to do with cancer or treating it, but people feel that since they are being monitored down to the good they eat, it must be better than western medicine. Avoiding chemo and radiation and opting for this treatment is usually because people want to avoid toxins, so yes, it has everything to do with what people do or do not want in their bloodstreams. Most people who can afford to seek out this advice are doing so while thumbing their noses at Western medicine and it’s “toxins” because they can do it all while being privileged enough to have the option of going to the hospital and real doctors if their all natural plan and healthy lifestyle doesn’t produce the results it should. The waiting room of the Bastyr clinic is full of upper middle class, white people with disposable incomes who will visit Whole Foods after their appointments to stock up on healthy foods because they are terrified of toxins. I have yet to see someone on Medicaid with food stamps or WIC there.

          • josh

            Informed people choose a different route then chemo for more reasons than just the toxins. Its because of the very low success rate as well.
            You don’t need to be rich to fight cancer or any other chronic disease naturally you just have to know what kinds of things to use. If you do research you will find testimony after testimony of people curing advanced stage cancers with everything from wheatgrass to black seed oil to thunder god vine to cannabis oil. There are a lot options that are cheap.
            The first thing to do is avoid whole foods as most of there stuff is GMO and covered in pesticides and if you do live by one that has a good organic section its very over priced.

          • Who?

            Got it-so any food that would be good enough to cure you is impossible to source and wildly expensive; and you have to have the right thing for your illness, which means you need to know the right people who can diagnose you properly.

            Does your wheatgrass have to be organic, Josh: and if so, what does that mean? By whose standards? Is American organic the best? Or some other country? Or is it the farmer’s word you’re relying on?

            Presumably all this research is on the internet, so extremely reliable-hey, not just anyone can have a website, right?

          • Bombshellrisa

            I don’t want testimony-I prefer clinical data from double blind studies conducted by research facilities.
            I have not seen cheap options with holistic cancer cures. Even with places like Bio Medical in Tijuana where they do the Hoxsey cure, it’s expensive. And not really realistic for most people, rich or not. Most holistic cancer treatments seem to have higher success rates because only the people who live report back-so everyone who had to abandon the course of treatment and turn to Western medicine gets counted among the chemo and radiation failure rate, much like when home birth train wrecks who show up at the hospital and whose injuries and deaths are counted as a failure by the hospital.

          • Dr Kitty

            Josh, do you know what the cure rate for paediatric leukaemia was 40 years ago?
            Do you know what it is now?
            Do you know what the evidence based treatment regime for paediatric leukaemia involves?

            I’m going to give you a hint.
            It involves a prolonged course of chemo, sometimes administered intrathecally, it may involve killing off bone marrow completely, and, while not perfect, works better than anyone practising medicine in the 1960s would ever have believed possible.

          • Medwife

            I have a patient who’s continuing to get care from a naturopath while seeing my practice for prenatal care. I ask her if she’s taking a prenatal vitamin and she says yes, do I know of a PNV that would be best for her particular needs? Me: they’re all pretty much the same. Some will have dha added, or more folate, but pretty much anything off the shelf will work just fine for you. Her: oh. Well my ND has recommended ____(most expensive vitamin on the market, with extra herbal goodness)___. She said it would be best because blah blah blah. I’m just smiling and nodding. Oh the worried well! Now she thinks I’m ignorant AND am not giving her the kind of individualized care she deserves.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I always wonder about the herbal remedies that ND and CPMs recommend for pregnant women. Few have been researched and even in books like “Between Heaven and Earth”, (an Eastern medicine read) there is a lot of contradiction about what pregnant women should and shouldn’t take herb wise. Plus you know that any old PNV at the drugstore isn’t pure enough for a special snowflake, it had to be organic and approved by Oregon Tilth.

          • Medwife

            My discussions with women over herbs that they’re taking or thinking about taking is almost always the same: We don’t actually know if that herb will harm, help, or do anything at all. We don’t know for sure that what’s in the bottle is what’s listed on the label. I would not prescribe you a drug that fit that description and I recommend you not experiment on yourself and your baby.

            It’s very rare that I can find any reputable study about any herb patients ask me about, and no, I’m not gonna pull advice out of my ass!

          • Stacy48918

            A friend sent me this chart the other day – a great visual graphic on the evidence-based-ness (made that up) of different supplements:
            http://io9.com/how-many-of-your-health-supplements-are-actually-snake-1492960177?utm_campaign=socialflow_lifehacker_facebook&utm_source=lifehacker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

          • Who?

            Perhaps you are right about the ses of people who distrust modern medicine, but you’re nuts if you think that anyone other than the very affluent can afford the ‘treatments’.

            How about my parents’ friend, who in her mid forties was getting special treatments that only yoga teachers could sell to deal with her gut issues. She is a very healthy eater and fit person, who will shortly die, likely in agony, from the bowel cancer that despite all her natural efforts she now finds she has throughout her bowel, in her liver and throughout her body. She’s still using the naturopathy, I’m just hoping she’ll decide to manage the pain with something a little more industrial when she needs it.

            Did she not try hard enough, Josh? Was she seeing the wrong practitioner? How do you think her pre-teen kids are going to feel about losing their mum to what would have been a treatable illness had she sought medical treatment instead of pursuing quackery?

          • Karen in SC

            Susan Voisin, the FatFree Vegan, recently was diagnosed with cancer and underwent conventional treatment.

          • Stacy48918

            Steve Jobs is dead now because he decided to follow crunchy cancer treatments rather than conventional medicine.

          • Samantha06

            Wow. I remember a friend of mine telling me about someone she knew who had been diagnosed with cervical cancer and refused a hysterectomy. She wanted to “treat it with homeopathy.” This woman was an educated profession (not medical), but she was very intelligent, at least in her job anyway! Of course, the cancer spread and by the time she sought conventional treatment she was 85 pounds and dying. What a waste of life! She would have been cured with a hysterectomy and instead she died because she didn’t believe in conventional medicine.

          • Box of Salt

            josh,
            define “toxin”

            Hint: “toxin” and “chronic” cannot coexist

          • josh

            Toxin:A poisonous substance that is a specific product of the metabolic activities of a living organism.
            Chronic:marked by long duration, by frequent recurrence over a long time, and often by slowly progressing seriousness
            Hint:environmental toxins can and do create chronic disease.

          • Stacy48918

            You just defined “toxin” as “as specific product of…a living organism”…then said they can be “environmental”.

            Hint, you just contradicted yourself.

          • josh

            I probably should have given the definition of environmental toxin even thou I was asked for the definition of toxin, as they do contracted each other being that environment toxins are not biological them selves and can be synthetic. But they are a subset of toxin
            Aluminum is acarcinogen. It is a cardiovascular toxicant, neurotoxicant, and respiratory toxicant. It has been implicated as a cause of brain damage, and is a suspected factor in Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, convulsions, and comas. It has been placed on at least 2 federal regulatory lists.
            Aluminum is most certainly an environmental toxin.

          • Stacy48918

            “Subset of toxin”
            So you are amending the dictionary’s definition of toxin?

            You disagree with your previous definition of “toxin”?

          • josh

            Are you unaware that there are things called environmental toxinds and biological toxins are not the only kind of toxins.
            If you read my post its clear I’m saying I should not have given a defintion that said living organism. It was a mistake as that is not what environmental toxins are.
            Now do you want to address the actual point of my comment and environmental toxins are included in the ingredients or are you going to argue that the science saying they are things like being carcinogenic, neurotoxins, and cardiovasculartoxins?

          • Stacy48918

            You know if you drink enough water it will kill you. TOXIN!!!!!!!!

          • josh

            Do you know how much water you would have to drink for that? That is such a ridiculous argument. These are none neurotoxins, cardiovasculartoxin and carcinogenics that have zero health benifets and only cause harm. Not sure if you know this but water is something that is pretty important when it comes to maintaining optimal health

          • sabelmouse

            it is one of their fave strawpeople indeed. had i not already given up on that commenter i would now.

          • josh

            She said Steve jobs died trying “alternative” treatments so modern medicine is more effective.
            The logic displayed is priceless. Although, I’ll admit she does spell a lot better than me. Which she uses to “prove” the content is wrong. Gotta love logical fallacies.

          • sabelmouse

            yup.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            common nonsense

          • Who?

            And yet you fill your consciousness with poison, while selling relaxation techniques.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            You all who imagine you are experts on my intentions, my lifestyle… very strange. Are all you mystery people, Amy Tuteur?

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “Are all you mystery people, Amy Tuteur?”

            Good lord, you’re boring.

            Is it inconceivable to you that there might be more than one female in the world who disagrees with you?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Or a group of medical professionals and scientists who can’t believe the audacity of a layperson who wants to “educate them” using links from other lay people.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Why are you so sure we’d have to be blinder than my beloved bard-tax man to agree with Dr. Tuteur?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In reading your comments, Patricia, I’m struck by two recurring themes.

            First, you don’t show any respect for birth. You present it as if it were a tame tabby when in reality it is a brutal, blood thirsty lioness. I realize that it makes you happy to pretend that birth is harmless and beautiful, but it betrays incredible disrepect for the power of birth.

            Second, your overweening narcissism is noteworthy even among natural childbirth advocates. You offer your opinion as if it were fact and demonstrate no awareness that your arguments are illogical, unfounded and based on your own fabrications.

            You actually think you know more about birth than people who have spent years in professional study and delivered thousands of babies, all because you’ve read a bunch of propaganda that you lack the educational foundation to even understand, let alone critique.. The arrogance of your ignorance is breasthtaking.

            I realize that your narcissism makes you impervious to criticism, but your disrepect for birth and its wildness and power ought to bring you up short. It certainly makes it impossible to take seriously anything you have to say.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            You are passionate about dissing home birth. I am passionate about dissing the medical model. I only step in when I see someone being bullied… and I see mothers and children bullied by the medical model.

          • Box of Salt

            Patrician Robinett, ” I am passionate about dissing the medical model.”

            Hence the jabs at chemo and vaccines.

            Thank you for showing your true colors.

            The medical model has done far more for humanity than your notion of (I paraphrase again) “I help people heal by helping them relax” ever will.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Time will tell, Boxie. Time will tell. I have heard – and it is documented – that when doctors go on strike or go away to war, that the death rate at home decreases significantly.

            Personally, I think that the battlefield or the emergency ward are the PERFECT place for medicine… Doctors are very good at putting people together again after accidents. But birth is not a medical issue, Mothers are not sick, they are performing a natural function.

            When obstetrics was in its infancy, the ob ward had such a bad reputation that mothers would give birth on the streets rather than go to the ob ward. The doctors refused to wash their hands between the morgue and the ob ward and they were killing mothers with the diseases they brought from the dead. They called it “childbed fever”. One MD actually had some wisdom and a heart and he BEGGED the other doctors to wash their hands before working with the mothers. They refused. One of the lead doctors who scoffed at the idea of washing his hands, until he cut himself at the morgue and himself died of childbed fever.

            Some say that our current epidemic of cancer was caused by the monkey virus that was put in the polio vaccine in the 1950s. Researchers laugh about it…

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmPQtizSjvU

            Polio vaccines, Simian Virus 40, and human cancer: the epidemiologic evidence for a causal association

            In 1960, it was discovered that Simian Virus 40 (SV40) contaminated up to 30% of the poliovirus vaccines in the US. This contamination arose because the vaccines were produced in monkey kidney cell cultures harboring SV40 between 1955 and 1963. During this period, approximately 90% of children and 60% of adults in the USA were inoculated for polio and possibly exposed to SV40.

            Read more at http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v23/n38/full/1207877a.html

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett, “Boxie.”? Who are you talking to? I apologized after I accidently failed to edit out an extra from “c” your name once. I do not have much respect for those who mock the screen names of other commenters.

            Your third paragraph? Yes, those us who understand germ theory know about Semmelweis. And John Snow, and Louis Pasteur.

            SV40 in the polio vaccine? A virus which has never been shown to cause any harm to humans?
            From your own link “A meta-analysis of five published studies did not support the hypothesis that SV40 exposure increases the overall risk of cancer incidence or cancer mortality.”
            Read more at:
            http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/sv40.html

            I’m going to repeat your earlier comment:
            “I am passionate about dissing the medical model.”
            And you charge folks money for the pleasure. No thanks.

            I’m curious, Patricia Robinett, have you ever met anyone who had polio?

            I have.

            Perhaps if you had, you’d be less passionate about “dissing” the knowledge and technology that can prevent it.

          • Samantha06

            When she is dire need of “the medical model” she will change her tune.. all of a sudden she will be humble and solicitous.. although, she is so narcissistic, that may not be possible..

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I also have issues about screen names, Box… I believe anyone who cares to make comments on the internet should use their real name… unless they have something to hide or they are ashamed of their comments. Otherwise, why not simply use your real name? It appears you are among friends here.

            Are you in the medical industry? The pharmaceutical industry? The public relations industry? Why would you and the other good people here take anything personally that the industries do?… or that I say here about those industries and the training that nurses and MDs get from those industries. I’m really here to lend information. I deplore bullying and I first dropped in because I saw some bullying was occurring here… the bullying of a mother who had a very unhappy birth experience. And the abuse continued. It does not reflect well on the owner of this blog or on the industry when people are treated disrespectfully.

            As for SV40… see http://youtu.be/-uGWut6IRfA – notice how the researchers laugh heartily. See especially 6:45 -9:35

            Notice his statement at the beginning that in his opinion, vaccines are the bargain basement technology of the 20th Century.

            Additionally…
            “In 1961, SV40 was discovered by Dr. Bernice Eddy of the National Institute of Health, Division of Biologics when she took the material used to grow polio vaccines and injected it into hamsters. Tumors grew in the hamsters. Her discovery was subsequently validated by Drs. Maurice Hilliman and Benjamin Sweet of Merck.

            “Upon the discovery that SV40 was an animal carcinogen that had found its way into the polio vaccines, a new federal law was passed in 1961 that required that no vaccines contain this virus. However, this law did not require that SV40 contaminated vaccines be thrown away or that the contaminated seed material (used to make all polio vaccines for the next four decades) be discarded. As a result, known SV40 contaminated vaccines were injected into children up until 1963. In addition, it has been alleged that there have been SV40-contaminated batches of oral polio vaccine administered to some children until the end of the 1990′s.” From http://www.sv40foundation.org/

            And at http://www.sv40foundation.org/CPV-link.html
            “Subsequent studies performed in the early 1960s demonstrated that SV40 caused brain tumors in animals and that SV40 could transform or turn cancerous normal human tissue in vitro. A disturbing experiment performed during this era also suggested that SV40 could cause human cancers in man in vivo.”

          • Who?

            We don’t use real names because those who think there is sv40 in vaccines, and that a natural process (birth) is ‘meant’ to be beautiful and is ruined by a giant nazi led conspiracy (refreshing after you also invoked Rockefeller medicine, you guys are all over the place looking for someone to blame) find us online and pester us forever. Sometiimes they even harass our employers and clients, thinking that will help us either change our minds or shut up.

            And sorry if I missed your answer to my question-do you consider an injury to mother or child at birth, following an emergency situation after the mother has refused recommended medical attention that would have averted it, iatrogenic?

            Thanks

          • Elizabeth A

            I also have issues about screen names, Box… I believe anyone who cares
            to make comments on the internet should use their real name… unless
            they have something to hide or they are ashamed of their comments.
            Otherwise, why not simply use your real name? It appears you are among
            friends here.

            I’m not using my identifiable real name either. An estranged relative hired a PI to get information on me and my husband a while back, and used the results to harass us.

            And for all I know, “Patricia Robinette” is just a plausible-sounding alias you made up so that you could participate in online discussion without worrying that someone would run a google search about your relaxation therapy services and find you being this kind of crazy.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett, you never answered my question (I will rephrase it):

            Have you ever met anyone who had recovered from polio?

            All your issues with getting called out for mocking my screen name are just a distractions, as are the videos you posted.

            You actually don’t understand the damage you are trying to cause. I find that sad.

          • Box of Salt

            Ugh, more typos.

            Kudos to Patricia for writing coherently with good grammar and spelling, in spite of having most of her “facts” just plain wrong.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            I have never met anyone who had polio, as far as I know. But I hear a Frederick Robert Klenner, MD, used to use megadoses of vitaminC and cured everyone he treated. And this is my real problems with the medical industry… not only that it harms people by doing things to them that they don’t need to have done, but also that it disallows things that are helpful and people die because of the petty, bullying shenanigans of the AMA. The AMA does everything it can to make its pharmaceutical company advertisers wealthy – to the detriment of the people. And yes, I HAVE met a doctor, an oncologist, who cried over his patients’ conditions and was having very good results with a cancer cure. Yet he changed fields rather than to risk censorship by the AMA, because he said that the AMA would destroy him. There have been many good doctors who have been destroyed by the AMA because they threaten big pharma’s big bucks.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Three words for you: Post Polio Syndrome. It’s ugly and no amount of vitamin c does anything for it.

          • josh

            The video was an of Mercks top vaccine developer. It was during a break in the shooting of a pbs documentary while he didn’t know the mikes were still on. It is very disturbing to say the least. The man jokes about not only sv40 being in some other there vaccines but also the hiv virus. He also talks about how they were sending the vaccines that were nolonger allowed in the us to Russia and how that will help us win the Olympics because they will all develop tumors. They were all laughing. It is enough to make you want to throw up. Sadly, it is you that doesn’t understand the damages you are causing.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Uh no.

          • josh

            Really? That’s your remarks to the content in that video? Your OK with a guy who was a living legend as a vaccine creator, saying everything he said in that video? Anyone that is OK with laughing about spreading cancer has something seriously wrong with them. Same goes for people that act like its ok

          • Dr Kitty

            Josh, your description of the video makes it sound less like the revelation of a global vaccine conspiracy and much more like someone making a joke.

          • josh

            What makes you say that? Because they are all laughing as he describes these horrible things? That just makes them inhumane psychopaths. Feel free to actually watch the video, you will see that this is the case and these people are making jokes and laughing as he makes these very serious revelations.

          • Siri

            I watched the clip. I laughed. I vaccinate my five children. Yes, I am an inhumane psychopath. You have discovered my secret. Now I must silence you. I shall lure you to a remote location and give you a polio vaccine. Mwahahahahahaaaaaaaahhhhh.

          • Siri

            Where’s that damn green monkey….Hon! Ho-on! Where’d you put that African Green? Cause I need it, that’s why! I TOLD you not to let the kids play with it! That darn thing is lethal. Yes, I need it *right this minute*. Some joker rumbled me online. I need to rustle up some *special* polio vac.

          • Bombshellrisa

            OMG-just spit out my lunch laughing so hard! Thanks Siri!

          • Siri

            ;-)

          • yugaya

            Disputing a standardized quack zombie meme every time it is picked up by the newest wacko on the internetz is a waste of time every time.

            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/11/a-zombie-meme-rises-from-the-grave-maurice-hilleman-the-polio-vaccine-sv40-and-cancer/

          • josh

            That article was lauablebat best. It claims hilliman was making fun of conspiracy therist when he admitted to unknowingly introducing HIV into vaccines. It claims that the people listening and laughing while saying so it was you and Merck then, was them laughing at conspiracy theorist. The only problem was he is clearly speaking matter of factly not knowing the audio is still on. The other problem was HIV was never claimed to be added into vaccines until people started watching this video and hear hilliman openly admit to it, while the other psychopath’s laughed.

          • yugaya

            Every. Time.

            WAKE UP SHEEPLE IT IS A CONSPIRACY!!!!!

            :)

          • josh

            No everything is a conspiracy but somethings are. Maybe just maybe, I guy admitting to being apart of one, while unknowingly being tape recorded, is one that is actually real. I know that’s crazy….

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            If it were a conspiracy to profit by harming others, why would the people who supposedly know about the dangers give vaccines to themselves and their children? Are you suggesting that immunologists, virologists, doctors and public health officials are all KNOWINGLY poisoning themselves and their children?

            That doesn’t make much sense, does it?

            What makes more sense is that anti-vaxxers, people who lack basic knowledge of immunology, microbiology, pharmacology and basic chemistry, are ignorant, paranoid and have trouble with basic logic.

          • josh

            Your whole aguement is predicted on the assumption that the people that know about the dangers like Hilleman, vaccinated himself and kids.
            You do know that there are a lot of your fellow doctors and scientist with phd’s in fields like micro biology are part of what you call anti-vaxxers. But yes keep brushing it off as every against the science of vaccination or ignorant simpletons that are just paraniods.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But i they dont know, then it’s not conpsiracy, is it?

            Make up your mind. Is it a conspiracy and thousands of professionals and academics are knowingly poisoning their children? Or is it ignorance, and in that case why wouldn’t professinals and academics reach the same conclusions you did?

          • Elizabeth A

            My mother is a clinical researcher, a physician with board certifications in infectious diseases and pediatrics. If anyone was aware of a global conspiracy to poison children with vaccines, it seems that she would be. Assuming she wasn’t involved, she would inevitably come across evidence of such a conspiracy in her medical practice.

            She had me and my sisters fully vaccinated, and advocates for all of her grandchildren to be vaccinated as well.

          • josh

            Hilleman clearly knew and other senior leadership inside of Merck that cover it up are the ones that committed conspiracy. What he is describing in the audio tape is conspiracy just not one that “thousands of professionals and academics” would have known about. A conspiracy by deffintion does not need to be this massive all encompasding scheme that ever doctor or academic inside the field would know about, much less be apart of.
            “why wouldn’t professinals and academics reach the same conclusions you did?” Again many many doctors and scientist have, dispute your claims that only ignorant simpletons that are paraniod belong to the “anti-vaxxers movement”

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            And yet no one but the uneducated and paranoid believe that vaccines are filled with toxins.

            You’re not making much sense, Josh. It can’t be a conspiracy if there are countless studies and countless people who have studied vaccines and found that the fearmongering of anti-vax activists is nothing more than the products of fevered minds.

            At this point, Josh, people like you are walking jokes, comparable to the flat earthers, wedded to a view of the world that was debunked long ago.

          • josh

            Your going to sit there and claim something so asinine as there are no toxins in vaccines?
            Aluminum is a cardiovascular toxicant, neurotoxicant, and respiratory toxicant. Formaldehyde is a human carcinogenic. Monosodium glutamate is an excitotoxin. Phenoxyethanol is a carcinogenic. It is also a developmental and reproductive toxicant. These are a synopsis of just a few of the toxic ingredients found in vaccines. They are also listed on the ingredient list on vaccine labels.
            Only the uneducated or a liar would make the claim you made. Which one are you Dr tuteur?

          • Who?

            What is in them is what is on the label, Josh. No conspiracy there, no one is hiding it from you. By all means, don’t be vaccinated, don’t vaccinate your children. How consistent are you though-when they or you get whooping cough or measles or flu, to the point where you are really scared, do you go to the doctor for treatment, including toxins? Or do you die, or let them die? Using medicine you claim to despise as a fallback in a crisis is pathetic weakness of character.

            Dr T is neither uneducated nor a liar, she just doesn’t agree with you. And the weight of science is on her side. Thing is, you don’t have to believe in science for it to work.

          • josh

            She just claimed there are no toxins in vaccines. Like you said they list the toxins on the label so her claim is a blatant lie. I could care less if she doesn’t agree with me with regards to theveffectiveness and safety of vaccines but she should not make claims like only uninformed people think vaccines are filled with toxins when they are not even trying to hide the many toxins from the public.
            As far as if I would ever use allopatic medicine as a “fallback”, anyone that knows me knows I will not. I keep my immune system built up. If I feel something coming on I nip it in the butt using natural antibiotics/antivitals and stuff high in vitamin c and antioxidants.

          • Dr Kitty

            Good luck with that Josh.
            No, seriously, if you’re planning to eschew all allopathic medicine for the rest of your life, I wish you good luck, because you’ll need it.

            Most people die from cancer, heart disease, stroke or complications of dementia.
            I hope you’re lucky.

            Personally, in the scenario in which I’d be denied allopathic pain relief, antibiotics, sedatives, anti-emetics and surgery, I’d probably consider a big heart attack or stroke that killed me quickly and painlessly quite lucky. Certainly I’d rather that before I became crippled with arthritis or contracted cancer or dementia and had to meet my end without the benefit of any good palliative medicine.

          • josh

            I had pretty bad arthritis in my back from the army. I have pretty much got it taken care of using natural antiinflammatory product. Did the same with many different ailments. I’ll be fine

          • Dr Kitty

            Which natural inflammatory products?
            Don’t keep this amazing product secret!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Arthritis symptoms come and go, which is why there are so many natural remedies listed as treating it without any scientific research to back it up. There is also a lot of contradiction within the alternative medicine community about what works and what should not be taken together (some herbs and vitamins are supposed to cancel each other out, for example biotin is canceled out by just about everything according to some NDs while tumeric and milk thistle have to be taken together for one to work).

          • josh

            There are for sure many things listed as ways to treat it with no or little scientific research backing it up. But there are also many that have been shown by scientific research to treat it.
            This is more of a biometric analysis than a study, as they look over other doctors and scientist studies and discuss the findings, but it is well researched. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/553966_5
            My symptoms did not come and go.
            I personally didn’t start getting relief until I started adding many natural antiinflammatory foods into my diet.

          • Who?

            No Josh, read it again. I didn’t say they listed toxins on the label, I said they listed contents. You think they are toxins, others know they are not.

            I don’t know you, and I’m sorry to hear you would rather suffer than not to keep yourself ‘pure’ whatever that means.

          • josh

            Oh so your going to claim their are no toxins in them too. Lol and you claim to have science on your side. Things like aluminum, msg, mercury, and formaldehyde are toxic/poisonous to humans. This is scientific fact.
            I don’t know what your blubbering on about in the last paragraph. I said nothing to even suggest that I have ever nor would ever suffer. I don’t I’m extremely healthy and if that ever changes, don’t you worry I will not go running to your precise allopathic medicines.

          • Who?

            Big doses, yes. The tiny doses in vaccines, no.

            Shame you are so angry-we all can get sick or injured in a moment: you claim to have been in the army and I assume you were driving a desk somewhere to be so blase about getting hurt.

            Or are you grouchy because you believe all those jabs etc they would have given you have poisoned you in some way?

          • josh

            Once again you assume wrong. I was a cavalry scout my unit was e/4 cav 2brt. Google 2nd brigade reconnaissance troop and go to photos and you will see photos of me and others on our units deployment in Iraq. I was pretty far from a pog and know how easy it is to get jury in a warzone. The us, at least right now is not that. And by the way, more than one of my friends, would not be alive if they sustained injures they did during the nam. They would have bleed out. The advancement of trauma surgery, especially in combat zones, saved there live. As I said before allopathic doctors are good when it comes to trama . that’s not at all what we are talking about. We are talking about treating illness and disease and I would never us allopatic “medicine” for that.
            As for as your last laughable statement. Yes, the only way a firmer soldier could be against vaccines or allopathic medicine is because he or she is “grouchy because you believe all those jabs etc they would have given you have poisoned you”

          • Medwife

            Were you vaccinated while in the military?

          • josh

            There is no way around it while in the military. Not that any soldier, at least inside combat bat arms did any research into it. We were just told we need shots and did it.
            I haven’t got one since my pre Iraq vaccines before feb 04.

          • Who?

            Good to know.

            I”m sorry you think I would patronise grunts or any armed forces members-I have close family in both roles. They are grateful for the medical and dental care the services provide, particularly when serving in places where wild measles, polio and other life threatening illnesses are rampant.

            You are an angry man-you have been so dismissive of different perspectives, with cannabis oil and garlic being your best shots at ‘treatment’-the first is unproven, the second doesn’t work any more often than doing nothing works.

            And it was a question, not a statement.

          • josh

            “I assume you were driving a desk somewhere to be so blase about getting hurt.” This was a reply to me saying I used natural remedies to cure my arthritis in my back. Your claiming someone who has actually seen combat and the harm/death it can cause would never go the natural healing route so there I must have “driven a desk somewhere.” First off this is completely patronizing to those that did have a non combat mos as there is no other way to take your statement other than an attempted insult. It is also highly illogical to think someone would get bad arthritus from a desk job in the army.
            I am in no way an angry man and used to believe in modern western medicine but then did a lot of research into it and now I am not. BTW both garlic and cannabis oil, like many other natural remedies, have numerous scientific studies showing there vast medical applications.. You can’t day someone is dismissive of others prospectives then dismiss there prospective because of incorrect information.

          • Stacy48918

            Care to provide us with one? One single peer-reviewed published study on the efficacy of garlic to treat an infection.

          • josh

            http://fitsweb.uchc.edu/student/selectives/atolsdorf/garlic.html
            This is is a good start. It also has peer reviewed studies into its cancer fighting capabilities.

            “Allicin, one of the active principles of freshly crushed garlic homogenates, has a variety of antimicrobial activities. Allicin in its pure form was found to exhibit i) antibacterial activity against a wide range of Gram-negative and Gram-positive bacteria, including multidrug-resistant enterotoxicogenic strains of Escherichia coli”http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1286457999800033
            This is the study they reference about its antibacterial properties.

          • Who?

            Perfect, put up the references, I’ll be happy to look at them as will others be, I’m sure.

            My remark was intended to reflect my view at the time that only someone who had not seen combat would not fear injury and it stands, particularly now that you indicate you are happy
            to accept modern medicine to deal with trauma. Any soldier-and
            certainly all soldiers in my country are riflemen-not prepared
            to accept medical treatment for injury would be in a bad way.

            You are hyper-sensitive to what you perceive as criticism, so a purely factual statement, like the desk-driver remark, becomes a patronising attempted insult.

            It’s ‘perspectives’, and you have supplied no information.

            My remark was made before (or before I had read) your arthritis revelation,

            Arthritis comes and goes, it’s great that it’s bothering you less right now, but don’t be surprised if your current favourite alternative ‘stops working’ at some point. Nothing much is good for arthritis unfortunately, though I imagine the sense of agency and control achieved by treating yourself-regardless of the actual efficacy of what you are using-is a positive.

            Don’t forget those references!

          • josh

            I pretty sure, a soldier from any country would take it as very disrespectfully to have someone say they assume you were a paper pusher that couldnt have seen combat, after telling someone they have very bad arthritis in there back because of the army. That in no way is being overly sensitive to criticism.
            My arthritis did not come and go in the since that in never went away. One days it was better than others but the pain was there every day for years. Arthritis is caused by inflammation and since I regularly started eating foods that are anti-inflamitory it it has completely went away. Its been a few years now. So I could really care less if people are convinced this can’t stop the inflammation causing it I know it has.
            I left a reference for garlic being one of many natural antibiotic.
            If you want to look into cannabis oil Google cannabis oil and chance. You well find likes to articles with the finding of recent studies. I’m tired and need to get up in 5 hours to work so don’t have the time or energy to find them right now

          • KarenJJ

            There is some thought that some soldiers in Iraq have suffered from an auto-inflammatory condition, possibly linked to adjuvants in the vaccines used. I’m not interested in the woo stuff that you’re posting, but was wondering if you’d looked into that further? I’m not sure how research into that has been going, but i’ve heard of it from a few other auto-inflammatory patients.

            I’ve got a rare, inherited auto-inflammatory syndrome and it’s well controlled with medication. It does mean that, theoretically, I can over-react to vaccines (fever, rash, joint pain etc). Practically it doesn’t happen for some reason, but my Immunologist (who has a MD as well as a PhD and worked in vaccine research) discussed this a little with me. Sometimes finding the right doctor can head you in the direction of answers. I know that can be hard to find though.

          • josh

            I’m guessing they think it maybe from the anthrax shots BC it was the only one I recall getting right before deploying. They said 6 shots needed to become protected and that everyone needed them all because of a perceived threat of anthrax being there. They crazy thing was they somehow ran out of shots after the 3rd installment and kinda just brushed it off and said we should be immune. This was the first time a really thought hmm wait a sec with regards to vaccines.
            I’m also going to guessing the adjunctive they suspect is aluminum because it causes inflammation were ever it goes inside the human body and I’m not sure if others do.
            I haven’t really looked into that as I always felt it was do to carrying heavy rucks and getting thrown around in the gun turret of my Humvee. I’ll have to look into it, thanks.
            BTW, what us woo or was that a typo.

          • KarenJJ

            The way it was described to me – the adjuvants stimulate the innate immune system (which causes inflammation) – this means that the vaccine can use less of the infectious parts (deactivated virus or whatever) and still get a good strong immune system response. One of the adjuvants is aluminium but there I think there are also others. For the vast majority of people, stimulating the innate immune system is not a big deal – but if you have an auto-inflammatory syndrome your innate immune system is already stimulated and you might end up in a full flare (which for some only last a day or so, but some syndromes can have a flare go for a week). For some reason, in spite of my autoinflammatory syndrome, I don’t seem to react to vaccines outside of the ordinary (small local site reaction typically) – which my immunologist found interesting. Other people I know have more serious flares as a result of getting vaccinations. The problem isn’t the vaccine, but their innate immune system is already boosted and over stimulated.

            Oh and woo is really short hand for magical thinking – homeopathy etc. Hippy stuff. I turf anti-oxidants into that mix too, since the term seems to be mostly used by naturopaths and marketing executives for breakfast cereal.

          • sabelmouse

            lol! and i’m supposed to think that the lot of you are NOT just propharma,pro medical-industrial complex shills!?!

          • KarenJJ

            What’s the amount and what’s the actual issue? Eg aluminium – what dose and where does it cause a problem? And mercury – if it is combined into a salt that gets peed out of the body, then what’s the toxicity issue there exactly? Can you be more specific?

          • josh

            My point is they have done no testing on them being injected. There is a lot of studies on ingesting things like aluminum and from this they came up with a level that is gererally safe to consume. They use these doses to say that the doses in vaccines are safe to inject. This is asinine and not scientific in the least.
            We know what things like aluminum will do when ingested, most will never leave the digested tract, so they are isolated from the blood stream, organs and cells in the body. Which is a good thing because after all, some of these things are very toxic and some can pass the blood brain barrier. We dont know what they will do once you bypass the bodies natural defence mechanisms, that are designed to keep things that are toxic it the body isolated and them excrete them. But if we are are built to have such protections I’d say its not wise to purposefully inject toxic substances past these.

          • Stacy48918

            Remember you said that. When the cancer in your abdomen is eating its way through all your organs, you have just vowed to eschew any morphine for your pain but rather to wallow in excruciating agony for weeks or months until you die in your own filth rather than seek competent allopathic medical care.

            Good choice! That’ll show those mean old nasty doctors.

          • josh

            Yes because there is no other way to relieve pain, fight cancer, fight off bad bacterium or basically any allment without allopathic. Lol

          • Bombshellrisa

            The only way to really know if there is another route is to take those people whose cancer has metastasized into their bones and give them arnica instead of morphine.
            Medical and recreational marijuana are legal in my state and there is much talk about it having a lot of power to do good things for a host of ailments. One of my friends is studying how it can help control seizures. It will take time to study it and compile more data. In the mean time, there are good alternatives to treat the pain effectively.
            Pre and probiotics and sandalwood are not effective alternatives to antibiotics and would work for babies or children anyway.

          • josh

            Is she looking at cannabis oil or from smoking or eating the herb? I have read a few studies on the oil and it has many medical benifets.
            Pre and probiotics are not designed to have antibacterial properties, so I agree 100%.
            I had one of my wisdom teeth pulled a few years ago. It was pretty infected. The dentist prescribed antibiotics and said the infection should go away in 3 to 5 days. I elected to use garlic because of its antibiotic properties and that its cheap and easy to get. By the morning the infection was almost completely gone. Since then I have added a few others, mainly oil of oregano, to my go to natural antibiotics.
            Not all work as well but there are alternatives to allopathic remedies, many that work better with out the side effects

          • Bombshellrisa

            The oil-I am very excited to see what is going to come of that, the Mayo Clinic is involved with the research.
            In my midwifery days, garlic cloves were used instead of antibiotics to treat GBS in pregnant women. It isn’t effective, babies have died when mothers use this as an alternative to antibiotics.

          • Stacy48918

            Wren’s mother’s garlic must have been defective. She must not have been doing it right for it not to kill the bacteria that killed her baby.

            /sarcasm

          • Bombshellrisa

            I had a friend whose baby girl died in utero because of GBS. She had to deliver that beautiful baby stillborn. I will never forget crying with my friend and her husband, holding them both when it came time for the baby to be taken away. If someone suggests garlic cloves instead of antibiotics, I go a little nuts.

          • Dr Kitty

            I’m not exactly sure how well garlic would work for neutropenic sepsis…

            Josh, which natural antibiotic should one use for TB?
            How about Meningococcal septicaemia?
            Necrotising Fasciitis?

            Given you don’t believe in extracting active ingredients from natural substances and turning them into medicines, how do you suggest one administers natural antibiotics to someone who is either too sick to swallow, or who has an infection in a body system that will not be reached by enteral medications?

            I’m pretty sure oregano and puréed garlic should not be administered IV…

          • Who?

            How did that go without pain relief or anaesthesia? What did the dentist think of having to work like that?

          • sabelmouse

            how did you take the garlic? or the oregano oil for that matter.

          • josh

            You have to mince or crush the garlic to activate the allicin inside it and it needs to be eaten withing 30 min to get the most out of it. I chop them up and add it raw to my foods . but when I feel something coming on or people around me are sick I’ll just crush up a few bulbs and eat. I’ll do the same with ginger root. The garlic can be hot when its raw so not everyone can handle it.
            The brand I use mixes a little bit of extra virgan olive oil. Which makes it tolerable to take a few drops under the tongue. If its just the oil by itself your going to want to delute it in water. The dose can very depending on what you want to accomplish and I don’t remember what those are off the top of my head. Ill link some info. Oh and it needs to be the wild Mediterranean oil of oregano, the others have no medical applications. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/02/01/oregano-health-benefits.aspx

          • sabelmouse

            thank you.

          • Stacy48918

            There are other treatments you can do, but they certainly aren’t anywhere near as effective as modern medicine. Ask Steve Jobs.

          • sdsures

            Or Jim Henson.

          • josh

            Steve jobs became a fruitarian which feed the cancer.

          • sdsures

            Better not eat any more apples; they have formaldehyde in them.

          • josh

            Once again the digestive tract is made to protect the rest of the body from these things. There is a huge difference between injecting and ingesting

          • Who?

            So if the digestive tract protects the body from toxins, how does anyone get cancer anywhere in their digestive tract?

            Bummer for Steve too, turns out there are right and wrong alternative treatments! Lucky you know all the right ones Josh.

            And since I see you allow the benefits of modern medicine for trauma, I take it you had the anaesthetic to have your tooth out?

          • josh

            The way you worded the first paragraph, I can’t tell if you know that one of the digestive tracts jobs is to keep food pollutants inside it band away from the bloodstream and oragans. You know this is not an unsubstantiated claim of a crazy alternative medicine loon, right?
            It is not immune from whatever particles that are carcinogenic may pass through it. It is also not immune from the cancer spreading to it. But this has nothing to do with it being design to stop pollutants from entering the body.
            Again, Steve jobs somehow thought that becoming a fruitarian would help cure cancer. When you eat only fruits your consuming a insane amount of sugar which feeds the cancer. I don’t know where he got this idea because I have never hear that as a alternative was to treat cancer but yes there are clearly right and wrong ways to go with natural remedies.

          • Who?

            Still nothing about how that tooth came out….or nothing I’ve seen. And I’m interested.

          • sdsures

            A blood test taken after eating an apple will show the exact same amount of increase of formaldehyde in the blood as injecting it directly into your veins.

          • Bombshellrisa

            You don’t even need to eat the apple-just walk down a city street or ride your bike instead, you get exposure that way too.

          • sdsures

            Maybe Josh should just stop eating, full-stop. And travelling on airplanes, because you get a small dose of radiation doing that.

          • josh

            Thanks I needed a good laugh

          • Who?

            I’ve decided to stop feeding him and sabelmouse too.

            They are both lovely examples of woo world though-they know loads of stuff but are too tired/busy/frustrated/angry/bored/limited in memory to share the links-except to the odd thing that is really old and doesn’t say what they claim it does.

            And did I see Josh claiming to not know what ‘woo’ is?

            They call other people liars and fools and shills then look for things to take offence at.

            Their grasp on written language is tenuous-which is fine in itself, but makes it difficult to understand what they are trying to say. This might also explain why they often seem to misunderstand what is written, both generally and in response to them.

            Also if you write badly not only do you not do your ideas credit, but you look like someone who can’t get their thoughts straight.

            Nuance of any kind is not something they seem to grasp.

            And they don’t answer hard questions-like how did Josh get his tooth out? Did a qualified dentist do it? Without anaesthetic? Or is invasive dentistry another exception to the evils of allopathic medicine, as trauma is? I would consider that very positive, if it was, because to die of tooth infection in the first world in this day and age would be just stupid.

            We can’t have a dialogue-which is an exchange of views-so I’m bowing out. Not because I’m oo tired/busy/frustrated/angry/bored/limited in memory but because why bother talking to people who know everything and won’t share?

          • Stacy48918

            “I’ve decided to stop feeding him and sabelmouse too.”
            No kidding.

          • sdsures

            Me, too – I’m done with them. The thing is, I feel as though letting them just spout on about rubbish means that they win.

          • Bombshellrisa

            ” I keep my immune system built up” Not everybody who has a chronic illness has a weak immune system. For some, it’s an immune system that works too well.

          • Box of Salt

            josh “Your whole argument is predicted”

            P r e d i c a t e d.

            The word you wanted is “predicated.”

            But this is all just going to help Patricia Robinett mislead herself into believing I am Amy Tuteur’s sock puppet.

            Are you posting comments this silly to make anti-vaccine folks look bad?

            And, once again, had this comment had any content that I thought you understood, I would have addressed it.

            But you’re basically just some character crying “Conspiracy! Conspiracy!”

          • josh

            You are really going to talk about content in a comment? Lol all your comments have zero content. They are all filled with ad Homs attacking typos. With red herrings or strawmen sprincled in.

          • Sara Lucy

            Have any evidence to back up that there were no rumors about HIV being added to vaccines prior to this taping (around the mid-80′s)?

            Read further: “The vaccine was later tested using a technique that can detect viral DNA (the PCR technique, or polymerase chain reaction); it did not contain SIV or HIV.”

            Aside from the various objections that you propose, is there any way in your mind to explain how the polio vaccine would have transmitted either SIV or HIV without the virus being present in the vaccine?

            *Note: telling a joke is not a method of viral transmission. You’re going to have to do a little better than that.*

          • Siri

            Sara Lucy: jokes have been known to go ‘viral’. Viruses are viral. Coincidence?
            I think not.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Josh, it wasn’t “hidden” footage. The guy was aware the mic was on. It was left out because it was felt showing it would be in poor taste, being at the height of the AIDS crisis.

          • josh

            Bombshell, you do know that they were taping a documentary that day and not just recording audio right? Or have you not watched and don’t know there was no video and only audio. The reason why it was cut is because it was a private conversation that was not part of the video documentary, that just happened to get picked up by a live mike that was left on.
            The content of the audio tape is “in poor taste” no matter when it was shown. Unless you think there is a time when laughing about unknowing introducing deadly viruses into vaccines, that would be seen in good taste.

          • Sara Lucy

            What is your point though? Is a researcher’s joke made “in poor taste” about crude vaccines from a previous era somehow relevant to today’s vaccine programs?

          • Box of Salt

            josh,
            we begin bombing in five minutes.

            Get over it.

            “That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

          • josh

            What exactly do you think I think bombshell means in the context of a women’s screen name?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Probably not what you think, but it was based on a book

          • josh

            Well maybe not but I certainly didn’t think it meant the shellcasing of a bomb. Lil
            What book is it from?

          • Box of Salt

            josh ‘Bombshell, you do know that they were taping a documentary that day”

            Did you notice the posted video was edited, with short clips by Hilleman cut into long statements read by talking heads?

          • birthbuddy

            Josh, meet Patricia. Patricia, this is Josh.

          • Who?

            That’s one echo chamber I’ll be staying out of…

          • Bombshellrisa

            It might be fun-you know those types start ought ok and then there is dissent and before you know it, a bunch of deleting.

          • Box of Salt

            josh “The man jokes . . . It is enough to make you want to throw up.”

            I hope you had a toilet handy.

            “I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes”

            That one was by Ronald Reagan, back in 1984. Sound check! Are scientists not allowed to have a sense of humor?

            “they were sending the vaccines that were nolonger allowed in the us to Russia”

            Albert Sabin’s live oral polio vaccine was tested in the Soviet Union because Jonas Salk’s inactivated polio vaccine had already been shown to be effective in the United States, and those clinical trials were cut short because we considered it unethical to continue to have a placebo arm.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1114166/

          • josh

            Listen to the video he was not joking about the viruses being in there. They were laughing because they thought it was funny that the HIV virus was inadvertently added to the vaccine because of the monkey they chose. He also was not talking about Sabin vaccine, when he said we will beat Russia in the Olympics because they will all have tumors. It was the sv40 filled vaccines that were band in the 60s here.
            Some of us are not OK with someone not only admitting to this but laughing about it. I guess you are on the side that will defend this despicable behavior.

          • sabelmouse

            i don’t agree with using real names on the internet. not when we have children at least.

          • josh

            Its a polyoma virus, breaking down the word and you will see it causes cancer. It is still being found in various kinds of tumors today.

          • guest

            You…..are….an…idiot

          • sdsures

            My premature birth at 28 weeks certainly WAS a medical issue.

          • Elizabeth A

            My daughter’s birth (placenta previa, hemorrhage at 32w) was also a medical issue. Lots of births turn out to be.

          • sdsures

            Is she OK now?

          • Elizabeth A

            We had a scary start, but she’s a boundingly healthy five year-old now. If prodded lightly, I can supply endless details.

          • Siri

            *prods lightly*

          • Elizabeth A

            She’s the best and bonniest girl who ever lost her hat in the snow. She is reputed to be the smartest kid in her pre-kindergarten class. She’s spent the holiday dancing, singing, and cavorting in the hot tub with her cousins. She’s seldom sick at all, and has never been so ill that I felt moved to call the pediatrician about it.

            But her winter hat is in Grandma and Grandpa’s front yard someplace, in between the house and the pond, under 10-14 inches of snow.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Oh man, I hope that the hat is ok especially if she really loves it, it’s hard to replace a good winter hat!
            She sounds beautiful and wonderful.

          • Elizabeth A

            DD is utterly unconcerned about her hat.

            I, on the other hand, spent the holiday in the crosshairs of a pointed four-way grandparental inquiry. “Did you not pack a hat for her?” “Haven’t had a chance to get hats for the kids yet this year?” “Darlin’, did you bring a hat for Little Miss, here?” “The kids want to go outside, but we can’t find this one’s hat.” “We don’t want Grandmamma’s dove to get cold!” “I didn’t want to hit the Black Friday sales, but if any of the kids still need hats…”

            SHE HAD A HAT WHEN WE CROSSED THE PROPERTY LINE AND ALSO THERE IS A HOOD ON HER COAT. My children obviously need things like hats and gloves, but I often feel like I would save ever so much time and effort if I just strolled around the neighborhood and their elementary school dropping dollar bills. When I hit $75, I’d be done for the season, and the affect on their hands and ears would be just the same.

            I staved off my hat-related tantrum by eating pie and complaining on the internet.

          • Box of Salt

            “a pointed four-way grandparental inquiry.”

            And none of the four of them could just lend her a hat?

            My own grandmother was knitter, who spend most of her life where the winters are both long and cold. There were always kid-sized extra hats and mittens at our house, just in case.

          • Box of Salt

            ^a knitter who spent

            I am channeling Mark Crisplip. I see the letters as I think they are, rather than the order I’ve typed them.

          • Box of Salt

            ^Crislip.

            Head desk.

          • Siri

            I like the idea of the typical British Crisp Upper Lip!

          • Bombshellrisa

            What is it with grandparents and hats? My parents seem to not be able to focus until the kids’ heads are covered

          • Who?

            I think-as I home in on one day in the next decade likely becoming a grandparent-that’s it’s just about feeling a bit more physically fragile. I get colder than I used to, can’t see so well, and despite lots of exercise, healthy diet etc am stiffer than I was. And I’m not even that old (or so I think).

            I’m cold, so I’m likely to think that others might be cold, and little ones look defenceless.

          • Amazed

            I remember my father’s eyes turning into veritable saucers when he found out that my grandma had placed a bloody towel under the Intruder’s t-shirt. Her reasoning? “Well, he perspires so profusely, he’ll surely get sick!” He was so stunned that it took him a while to ask what an active 5 yo was supposed to do. It was either spring or summer, I don’t remember, and the kid was PLAYING.

            A common grandparent disease, it seems…

          • yugaya

            Grandparents: people who will chase your toddler around the playground to change them into dry set of clothes every fifteen minutes because pneumonia.

          • Amazed

            … and when they get scolded for it, they KEEP doing it, just in secret, because hey, even if you weren’t so CARELESS of your kids’ health, what do young people know about raising children anyway?

          • Siri

            And because draughts. Which cause colds. As in, ‘Are you sure you should leave the baby in the draught like that? He’ll most likely catch a cold’. ‘Colds are caused by viruses, mother’. ‘Yes dear, but wrap him in this blanket. Because draughts’.

          • Amazed

            One of the very few times I’ve seen my grandmother speechless (that’s the woman whose son in-law thinks she should have commanded a regiment and she gets all huffy because she thinks she could deal with an army, at least) was soon after our February Intruder was born. He was actually left on the (open) terrace for a while. All wrapped and covered, of course. She was terrified speechless.

            Wish we had kept this baby inside about two months later when he was enjoying the nice warm day and the nice rain out of the open terrace that later turned out to be stuffed of Chernobyl radiation. But Grandma didn’t know. No one was fucking told.

            I hate Communists.

          • Siri

            Bloody hell!! I’m sorry, Amazed; that’s beyond terrible. I was lucky enough to hear about Chernobyl on the news in Norway, at a safe distance, and I remember feeling utterly terrified. I’m so sorry. Don’t blame you for hating them.

          • Amazed

            No, no, he’s alive. And reasonably healthy, thank God. But when he got his first episode of acute illness (my mom was told that he WOULD die), no one was able to make the correct diagnosis. They wanted to remove his appendix when it was acute peritonitis that was the problem. Then, the “sure to die” prognosis came in. Fortunately, he beat the odds. No one had seen such an acute case (or a case at all) in a child of seven. Later, such cases made the news. And they were all in children his age.

            Maybe I’m irrational. Maybe it’s just my bias showing. But I cannot forget this time we visited an acquaintance of my mom’s, around this time. I remember being very surprised that no one there was drinking water from the tap, it was all bottled, all mineral. She was married to a major figure in the ranks of the Party. THEY had to be kept safe, we could happily eat the greens washed in radioactive rain while, when forced with the neccesity to admit that there’s been an explosion, our leaders assured us from the TV that there was no danger.

            There’s even an anecdote for the occasion. “What’s radiation?” “The thing that doesn’t exist but is constantly decreasing!”

          • Siri

            That’s beyond despicable. I’m so glad he’s ok! I don’t think you’re irrational at all.

          • Box of Salt

            Amazed,
            I don’t do this often

            ((((hugs))))

            From your comments, I know you’re also from

            Eastern Europe – which you might not have known about me. My immediate family got out a couple of decades sooner yours did, but among those we left behind also lost children.

            I just went to hug my own kids.

            Again,

            ((((hugs))))

          • Box of Salt

            I’d sell my firstborn for a “Preview” function.

            No I wouldn’t – my own firstborn is worth more than that, because that child can actually edit.

            Ground control to commenter josh: I am actually the Queen of Typos, and these are jokes.

          • Amazed

            No, I didn’t know. See, one can always learn something more about their fellow commentors! Thanl you for reaching out.

            I didn’t make myself clear, it seems. He didn’t die, thank God, although it was a close thing (twice). One time, the hospital wouldn’t admit him because, I kid you not, there wasn’t anyone of the immediate family to sign the papers and he was a minor. I just think his troubles were related to Chernobyl – he was exposed by daily walks and exclusively breastfed. With the constant trying to mask the issue on either side in the field of politics and environment, one can never be sure. But it was a terrible experience, especially the second time around because I was already old enough to realize what was going on, although, strange enough, I never believed he might actually die. I KNEW he might but I never believed it. In a way, I can relate to the NCB advocates thinking that it wouldn’t happen to them.

            Go and give your kids another hug. We never know what might happen next. And know that you’re very lucky that your family got our in time. Recently, we celebrated 25th anniversary of the fall of the regime and my, did I have a chance to remember about the brainwashing in my 1st grade textbooks, the empty shops, my teachers’ questioning what my parents talked about at home because it turned out that my grandfather was in concentration camp BEFORE MY MOM WAS BORN… Madness!

          • Mishimoo

            “Surely you’re not going to take them outside? The breeze will give them wind!” or “You took them outside in that? The wind will steal their breath!” are the two I got the most.

          • Amazed

            Are you sure she didn’t lose it on purpose? Because that was what I did.

          • Siri

            My school satchel was always stuffed full of hats every winter. Until my mum couldn’t find a hat for me one morning, and the satchel would be upended to disgorge eleven hats.

          • Amazed

            My dad become proficient at hunting our hats down when he was told that should he be this negligent again (“What? Do they really need those hats? They hate them. Look at me, I never wear hat and I don’t even have hair to offer whatever little protection hair is supposed to offer. I don’t get sick and neither will day), he would be bought a hat and forced to wear it.

          • Siri

            Lol. I remember leaving the swimming baths without a hat and WITH DAMP HAIR – my mum told me my health would be permanently ruined. Migraines, rheumatism, arthritis – all guaranteed to happen. Doomed. At the age of 13.

          • Elizabeth A

            I don’t *think* she lost it on purpose, but I suppose it’s possible.

            The timeline as regards her hat, to the best of my ability to determine (timestamps approximate):
            12:31:10 – Pull into Grandma and Grandpa’s driveway, fishtailing slightly in the picturesque snow.
            12:31:35 – Insist that children don boots and hats before bolting out of the car to play in the snow.
            12:34:05 – Open car doors to release spring-loaded children into yard.
            12:34:30 – Take first of four trips to house with luggage.
            12:36:15 – Stand in front hall surrounded by suitcases, hand FIL my car keys so that he can move the car to a better spot in the driveway, accept glass of wine to recuperate from drive, call my sister to advise her to drive up in the morning.
            12:42:00 – Glance into front yard and note that DD has no hat.

            I suspect that she sort of placed it on her head rather than pulling it on over her ears, and while it’s my feeling that she should have a hat on principal, if she loses it, and doesn’t complain of cold, I’m inclined to not fuss. It’s the front yard of a nice warm house, not a climb up Mt. Katahdin. She’d come in if she was uncomfortable. Grandparents, though.

            I like this a lot better than the Nazi doctors part of the conversation.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I ask only because I had a hysterical dd, who did indeed lose a hat at grandma’s house. Not just any hat, one that looked a lot like one of my mom’s hats and they spent a morning making matching embellishments for their twin hats. They then went out and showed off at the produce market, then surprised me during a double shift with a snack at work-wearing matching outfits. Somehow she lost the hat between getting home to grandma’s and me picking her up after work. The level hysteria reach a fever pitch until grandpa found the hat that had somehow crawled between the couch cushions.

          • Elizabeth A

            Oh no! Poor baby. I’ve definitely had similar situations, but not with this hat, thank heavens.

          • Mishimoo

            As the paediatrician said to my mother-in-law when my husband was young: “Madam, we are mammals, not reptiles. If he does not want to wear a jumper, he does not need to wear a jumper.”

            (Jumper = Sweater)

          • Siri

            5-year-olds are the best! And yours sounds like a particularly fine specimen. :-)

          • sdsures

            *grins*

          • sabelmouse

            i actually have a friend who stayed at home alone to birth her 3rd rather than go through another hospital birth again. this was in london, in the 90s.
            her first 2 experiences had been that horrendous.

          • Stacy48918

            Obviously that was a completely rational thought process and if her baby had died it would have been 100% the fault of the EVIL hospital.

          • sabelmouse

            can you imagine what a woman might have gone though in hospital, twice, to take that risk for her baby? and herself?

          • Stacy48918

            No actually I can’t. Please enlighten us.

            I would risk EVERY intervention, discomfort and personal insult imaginable for the life of my child.

          • sabelmouse

            if it were necessary. yes. but if it isn’t and it wasn’t. my friend was bullied and mistreated, possibly there was a racist element as well.

          • Who?

            Were they both okay?

          • sabelmouse

            yes, but after that ,with the next one she got the home birth service she’d been begging for.

          • yugaya

            You step in … and cash in.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            My goodness! You seem to be obsessed about my income. Should I tell you that it is nearly 100% my retirement social security funds and that it is a rather small amount? My book income averages about $20/month. I am not really all that interested in money; that’s my choice. If you are interested in money, then that’s your choice.

          • yugaya

            Again, hypocrite unmistakably accuses others of the things they are doing.

            Your actual personal income is TMI, but the fact that you are gaining (any) financial benefits from your supposed victimhood and being a self-proclaimed selfless altruist “passionate about defending mothers and babies” is something that needs to be on record, just like your bigotry, racism and lack of knowing of basic human physiology.

            Next time someone googles you, there is a far greater chance that they won’t be buying the snake oil that you and natural childbirth cult are selling.

          • sabelmouse

            your comment goes well with your article which i find both horrifying and actually quite despicable.

          • Stacy48918

            You don’t believe birth is dangerous, then?

            The incredibly high maternal and neonatal death rate (1/1000 women and 100/1000 babies) prior to modern medicine, doctors and hospitals was due to….modern medicine, doctors and hospitals????

          • sabelmouse

            it’s not so simple. women and babies didn’t just die because they didn’t have modern medicine. in fact many died with what went for doctors not so long ago who did their best to oust midwives .
            there were often lack of knowledge [ or disregard for it due to midwife/witch hunts] , lack of hygiene, lack of nutritious and enough food, over work, to many children ectr.
            it’s ridiculous to make this a modern medicine = good , lack of that = bad equation.
            and plenty of mothers and children die/d or are damaged, physically or emotionally because of modern medicine.

          • Karen in SC

            That’s your opinion and it doesn’t equal fact. Sorry. The main causes of perinatal death are not what you listed. Care to add some real data?

            How do you explain the MANA data of 3x or more likely for a healthy at term baby to die during labor?

          • sabelmouse

            as i recommended to someone else; read WIDELY!

          • Stacy48918

            The posters here DO read very widely. But obviously somewhere along the line we have missed the insightful information that informs your opinions.

            You can’t provide us with a SINGLE website, publication, peer-reviewed article – ANYTHING – to substantiate a SINGLE claim of yours?

            Help us read widely. Show us what we’re missing.

          • sabelmouse

            or search yourself. i’ve been reading about this for nearly 3 decades. i do recommend books by sheila kitzinger though and there were some german books, 1 in particular, but i don’t have them anymore or remember titles. sadly. brain fog and memory issues.

          • Stacy48918

            I have searched. Many times for years. And still you know something we don’t. You can’t provide a SINGLE specific example to back up a SINGLE opinion?

            That’s very interesting.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You haven’t read widely. How many scientific papers on the subject have you read from start to finish? I’m going to guess ZERO. You have read propaganda specifically created for laypeople, which in many ways is worse than reading nothing.

          • Who?

            Sorry to hear about your brain fog and memory issues but they hardly qualify you an authority to be relied upon. Sheila Kitzinger, there’s one. Hardly up to date though is she?

          • sabelmouse

            i don’t know how up to date she is but she’s got interesting things to say and birthing is not rocket science. our biology needs haven’t changed radically since her last book and i don’t try to be an authority.
            and why would my memory issues do that anyway. they are only the reason why i can’t remember books i read several times a couple of decades ago.

          • Stacy48918

            Again, so you don’t believe birth to be dangerous?

            In what way does hygiene improve shoulder dystocia? How does improved nutrition prevent placenta previa? Resting more avoids breech babies?

            It’s not at all ridiculous to make the modern medicine = good equation. If you don’t believe that, go birth your baby in rural Afghanistan then. Eat well, exercise, have a flush toilet…but no hope of access to modern medical care. The number of women and babies that die will still be very high as compared to places there there are doctors and hospitals and medicine.

            Besides, how exactly do you think we realized the benefits of hygiene and nutrition if not through…medicine?

          • Karen in SC

            You need to sign up for the Global Maternal Mortality class out of Emory. It’s free via Coursera! Lots and lots of FACTS and discussions, and the way to improve outcomes is bringing the “medical model” to more of the women in the world. NOT the opposite.

            YOU know nothing about it, really. You seem to have based your entire belief system around one movie, which I hesitate to call a documentary. Have you watched A Walk to the Beautiful, about women who suffer in the developing worlds?

          • Bombshellrisa

            I suggested she watch that, anyone who suggests for a second that birth should be as nature intended needs to watch it, to counter the lies they were fed during “The Business of Being Born”.

        • SporkParade

          I’m pretty sure I avoided a C-section thanks to Pitocin. Of course, that’s because I was in a hospital. If I was at home, the result would have been brain damage or death due to lack of second stage fetal monitoring.

    • sdsures

      “Have you ever heard of Operation Paperclip? Hundreds of Nazi doctors and scientists were imported into the US after WWII. They taught at med schools. And they did NOT teach kindness, gentleness and compassion. They taught callous disregard for the patient… much as they practiced in the concentration camps. Be part of the solution, Amy. We need you to have a “Scrooge moment” and turn around and do just that – become an advocate for mothers and children. Thanking you in advance.”

      How dare you compare hospital birth to Nazi ideology. Though, I suppose, with your line of thinking, Godwinning was inevitable.

      And, for the record, the people in concentration camps who were experimented on were NOT “patients”. They were prisoners. This documentary, “The Science and the Swastika” should help clarify things for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZquBH0CH24

      • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

        I merely state the facts, m’am. Operation Paperclip brought over lots of Nazi doctors. Our doctors have been trained by them. It was not good for our country and for people who need compassionate medical care. .

        • Bombshellrisa

          I can’t believe you would bring up Naza doctors-Dr Amy and plenty of posters here are Jewish

          • sdsures

            I am. And I’m disgusted.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            What, pray tell, is the problem with Nazi doctors coming to the USA, other than they influenced our medicine with their cruelty? I don’t get your concern. Can you explain it to me? Thank you. I think it’s time we stepped outside their influence and returned to being a kinder, gentler nation. The Nazis were rather cruel, from what I hear… Mengele, you know… the one with the space between his front teeth that children always noticed… many have commented on his presence since WWII – in the USA and Canada.

            From the NYTimes, “Nazis Were Given ‘Safe Haven’ in U.S., Report Says”
            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

          • Bombshellrisa

            So Dr Amy, a Jewish woman, let herself be influenced by a Nazi doctor? Doctors being trained now are influenced by Nazis?

          • sdsures

            You ask, “What’s the problem?”

            Given the filth you link to in your other posts, I’m amazed you can’t see it for yourself.

          • DebraB

            I googled Operation Paperclip. The people brought over were rocket guys – scientists, engineers and technicians. Not medical doctors, much less obgyns. Noting like a partial lie.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How many were actually Nazis? Or were they Germans who were under Nazi rule?

            You know, guys like Albert Einstein?

          • DebraB

            According to Wikipedia, that was a problem. They were supposed to exclude any Nazi party members, but some records were whitewashed. That’s how we got Werner von Braun. But none of them were OBs. (Also, it’s not how we got Einstein. He came to the US in 1940. This was postwar.)

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            He came to the US in 1940. This was postwar.

            Post what war is that? :)

          • DebraB

            :) Cute.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Paperclip was post WWII, Einstein came mid-war (in Europe) Sigmund Freud also was forced to leave (and had the ability, unlike so many) early in the war.

          • Samantha06

            But then there is the whole other “moon-landing hoax” theory… I guess all those scientists and engineers were co-conspirators with the Nazi doctors … and on.. and on… and on….

    • Who?

      Who says birth is ‘meant’ or ‘supposed’ to be anything? The ideal outcome is healthy mum, healthy baby, surely. Why does it have to be a particular kind of experience as well.

      And whatever is wrong with ceding power to the person who knows the most about how to get the ideal outcome? Why should an ignorant, uneducated, inexperienced person (in the area of childbirth) have the same power in a delivery room as a knowledgable,educated, experienced person? Who would want that?

      Mostly the bells and whistles aren’t needed, but when they are, or when a mother wants them, why would you deprive her?

      Btw the US doesn’t have a high rate of maternal and infant deaths, even among those foolish or deluded enough to think that they don’t need any help because birth is ‘meant’ or ‘supposed’ to be in soft focus. Still way too many among that group, compared with those who choose to give primacy to the life and health of themselves and their child not some silly fantasy.

    • kerlyssa

      Ohhh my god. Birth should be pleasurable because vaginas are where penises go, and babies are bigger? Babies ‘wriggle out’ and up onto the breasts, like god damn kangaroos?

      I’m reminded of the line from the 40 year old virgin, where he describes breasts as feeling like bags of sand. Has this woman ever seen a birth?

    • MaineJen

      Oh, dude. “let her baby wiggle out of the birth canal…” It’s that simple, huh? I think, oh I don’t know, *every woman ever* would beg to disagree with you.

  • Lexi

    I had a nurse insert her hand inside me to “check” my progress. She then punched me. She had her hand inside of my vagina and she forcefully punched me. She pulled her hand out, took her gloves off and calmly said, “Sorry, we just needed to get things moving.” Later I was given my epidural because the pain was unbearable, and then my water was broken. I have never seen this as “rape” but I was definitely assaulted by this nurse. It has been 3 1/2 years and I’m still really upset about it. I don’t even feel safe returning to this hospital.

    • birthbuddy

      Did you ask her what she was doing?

      • AlisonCummins

        She shouldn’t have to!

        • birthbuddy

          She might have got an answer and then she wouldn’t have to make bullshit up.

    • Poogles

      “She had her hand inside of my vagina and she forcefully punched me. She pulled her hand out, took her gloves off and calmly said, “Sorry, we just needed to get things moving.” ”

      I’m sorry, but it doesn’t even make sense that she would “punch” you, especially not to speed things up! I’m curious what she was actually doing that felt like an internal punch to you…

      • Medwife

        I was picturing the nurse punching her in the face in the middle of a vaginal exam but your interpretation makes more sense!

        It’s never good to assume a patient understands why you’re doing something. “Getting things moving” does not count as an explanation, certainly.

  • Chims

    What is the correct term, then? The exactly correct medical term, I mean. Medical assault? I am new to the term ‘birth rape’. I hate the term, but it seems to apply. I was alone in the room after the traumatic birth of my daughter (she was shoved back inside of me twice, if you can imagine that, before being wrenched out of my body, dead). Everyone had left after she was finally able to be bagged and her heart restarted. My husband was with her, the doctors and nurses all gone.

    The OB re-entered the room, and we were alone. I knew the cord was still hanging – I could feel the weight of the clamps after they cut it. I had no expectation as this was my first child, and he gave no explanation of what would come. Without warning he shoved his arm (yes, his arm… not fingers) up into my body up to his elbow. I felt his watch going in and coming out. In fact, I was torn open the length of my canal and cervix during the process. I cannot even properly describe what the manual placental removal felt like. It was violent, it was aggressive, it was traumatic. I did NOT consent – and even begged him to stop. It left me with lasting damage. He then stitched me up like nothing had happened.

    Eight weeks later at an exam I had barely had the will to attend, he (again without warning or consent of any sort) cut open my internal scarring and burned it closed. (He told me that after.) I was alone in the room with him and my baby, sobbing and begging for him to stop. Once again, I had given him NO consent for this type of penetration. I had consented only to vaginal exam and pap smear. Those were hard enough to endure, given the ground chuck my body had become.

    Nine years later I have lasting physical damage and PTSD. These incidents were treated by that OB and his staff as normal natal care, and I was so deep in emotional and mental distress that the time frame for me to prosecute came and went. These were both very violent assaults to my sexual/reproductive area. I am living with them for the rest of my life, and there is no recourse for it to be so much as mentioned on his record.

    I understand the horrid implications of the word rape. I have seen what it does to people. I am hurt and offended by the term birth rape. But the honest truth is, given what happened to me and the fact that I have the same after-effects as the rape victims I know (ptsd, flashbacks, triggers, panic attacks, loss of sense of safety, mistrust etc, etc, etc)… I do not think the term is entirely misapplied. I do want to know ‘what’ happened to me, if there is indeed a proper label for it.

    Nobody can tell me that it was normal, or that it was the right thing to do. In fact, his partner and the nurses in the room all expressed that he was upset that I had labored into the night, and that he had to be wakened. “I” was putting him out by giving birth. “I” did not lose my placenta naturally because he did not have the time to wait for it to come out on it’s own. In either case where he ‘penetrated’ and injured me, the very least humane thing to do would be to calmly explain what ‘must’ be done before doing it.

    You also cannot tell me that it is acceptable for a doctor to be alone with a woman and just plunge into her body after the crisis has passed. It took seven years to have another baby – a cesarean necessitated by the damage done to me the first time around. This doctor was NEVER in the room with me alone, and that not at my request but as his usual practice. He always, always, always had a nurse on hand with him no matter how busy the hospital and clinic were. He always, always explained to me what was about to happen before doing it. He was a medical professional who showed compassion and walked us through an emotionally terrifying process. None of his physical exams felt like a violation. Nothing about his manner suggested violence or assault.

    It IS possible for a medical professional to remember he is dealing with a human being at perhaps her most vulnerable moments. Birth rape as the term has come to be understood may not be sexual in the sense that nobody is trying for an orgasm, but it IS one of the most intimate acts in the world. It brings the same end result, the same myriad of symptoms as sexual rape. Is it not a distinction without a difference?

    So, you who know… what did I go through? What did I experience and here describe in as little detail as possible? My body was violated. My dignity was stripped. It was NOT an emergency either time. The birth was emergent, and the bleeding I did after the manual placental removal became emergent… but the act itself was not necessary. Can you tell me what I experienced was not the violent assault of my sexual region? Can you tell me it has not had lasting effect on myself and my husband? It has taken more guts than I ever thought I had to post this… but the world needs to know that it is NOT just medical necessity that causes what they call birth rape. It is NOT just doctors following the best interest of patients. People can be heartless and careless, and yes, some of those people are OB’s.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      I’m confused. First you say that your baby (“my first child”) died at birth, then you say that the baby accompanied you to your postpartum appointment.

      • Chims

        They restarted her heart, got her on a vent, shipped her off to a NICU. You can understand surely that it is hard to draw all of the details together every time. Especially in an instance as emotional as being assaulted with this ugly new term. My comment was all but begging for the correct term – or that is how it came out of me. I have seen what rape does, and I never drew the conclusion myself that I was raped. The term offends me and hurts me deeply… I said that too, I thought. My question was, given the lasting effects and the emotional similarities, and the violent and violating aspects of it – what do we call it? What do we call it? That is my resounding question, and seems to have been somehow missed.

        • Karen in SC

          I think medical assault is the correct term. I am so sorry you had such horrific care. It’s never too late to complain even if time has passed. Write the doctor a letter, copy the hospital and the state medical board.

          • AllieFoyle

            I think she’s looking for a term that describes the effect of the experience on her. Medical assault, yes, maybe, but I think that term doesn’t address the feelings of violation, of being damaged sexually–regardless of the doctor’s intent.

          • The Bofa, Being of the Sofa

            But even something like burglary or voyeurism can make one feel violated in many respects, including sexually, depending on the nature of the incident. That doesn’t mean we would describe them as rape, though.

          • Chims

            I accept that, and as I did finally state (albeit not plainly in the original post like I intended to) that I do not accept the term rape.

            I am also (having thought the matter over last night after my initial emotional response) not going to think of it as a sexual assault. Nothing about it felt sexual at the time. Violating, yes. Horrifying, yes. Sexual, no.

            This is a process, reading something like this and coming to grips with it all over again. I am not going to have a ‘right’ response, per people who’ve never experience it, right off the bat. That doesn’t mean I cannot come to some understanding of the matter.

          • Karen in SC

            During your treatment for PTSD, did you have another doctor go over your records? Its sounds to me as if either you had a terribly incompetent OB or you would have had a traumatic and possibly tragic birth even had your OB been compassionate. But that would be for another OB to judge.

            Also, I believe that your child could still sue for damages even now.

          • Chims

            My current OB/GYN (been with him for years) has had full access to and gone over the records of the first birth. He said it never should have happened, and promised to treat me/us with care. He has, and this man is my personal hero. :)

            Lawsuit… I am not that kind of person. The most I ever wanted was for it to be on his record that he uses the Zavanelli Maneuver etc so that pregnant women who look him up can make better informed decisions.

          • araikwao

            I’m so sorry that you have had such a horrifying experience, and that you’ve had to justify every detail here. I’m so sorry you were treated like that in such a vulnerable time, and genuinely hope that you heal well in every respect.

          • AllieFoyle

            She’s not saying she wants to call it rape, just that she doesn’t know what other term to use. Maybe medical assault is better, maybe birth trauma… I don’t know.

          • Chims

            I did say in my original comment that her heart was restarted, so I’m not sure how it came across that she didn’t eventually survive. She was badly broken – he had broken her collar bone to get her shoulder dystocia dislodged when she flat-lined after he shoved her back inside of me the second time. (The first time he pushed her back in and rotated her, he ended up wrapping her cord around her neck, so he unwrapped it and shoved her back in a second time.) After they got her heart restarted they bagged her manually for five hours until the ambulance and police escort arrived to take her to the Children’s hospital. She had more problems than I care to recount, including a hemotoma the size of the back of her head, the broken clavical, Erb’s Palsy (paralysis), organs spitting poison and shutting down, and heart actually pumping blood backwards through her body. She was with me at the follow up appointment, but she was still paralyzed, in therapy, and recovering from the other unlisted physical issues. The OB told my husband that he should have lost us both that night and gone home with two body bags behind him. It was horrifying and traumatic.

          • Chims

            Thank you. <3

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          In other words, you habitually using shocking exaggeration to gain attention. You claimed that your baby was dead when she was alive, and you claim you were raped when you weren’t.

          • Chims

            I claimed neither thing. I said she died, which she did. I said her heart was restarted, which she was. I never claimed rape. I said the after effects are the same. I wondered what the difference is, and thank goodness someone with a heart answered plainly.

            I am not here to gain attention, I am here to say give these women who DID coin the term an alternative. Tell us what it was that did happen. I am here because people like you are more interested in picking at victims than validating the fact that assaults happen.

            It is interesting that you can draw the conclusion ‘habitually’ from one post. You could search me everywhere and only find blogs about other things… the experience is not one I wanted. It is one I have only this year (nine years later) begun to open up about. I have done so because there are an overwhelming amount of mothers who are still going through similar situations.

            Attention is not something I am comfortable with. I do not acknowledge my birthday, I do not seek out or feel comfortable in crowds. I am happiest in a somewhat introverted lifestyle. If you think having comments made back to me on an obscure article on the internet is ‘attention’, you have also missed the definition of that word. This is nothing more than online conversation, if anything.

            However uncomfortable I am with attention, I am less comfortable with survivors of birth trauma being basically called attention whores because some random person somewhere coined a very ugly term. My question to you is why do you feel it necessary to put me down? What purpose does it serve to defame the character of a stranger? What threat am I to you or to your profession?

          • Mom2Many

            Whoa, Dr. Amy, maybe you want to reread what she wrote. Unless something got edited after you read it, Chims clearly wrote that the baby’s heart needed to be restarted (isn’t that technically dead?) and that her husband had gone to be with their child, leaving her alone in the room. Also, maybe I missed something, but I did not get the impression that she was calling her experience ‘rape’, more that she was wanting input as to what she could/should call it.
            Can I also just say to Chims directly that reading that was horrifying and I hope that you, through opening up about this so many years later, are given some semblance of healing. I wish you all the best.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I missed the part about the resuscitation, but if a baby can be resuscitated, it’s not dead.

            It seems that there is a lot more to this story than what Chims wrote. Her daughter nearly died as the result of a severe shoulder dystocia. The doctor saved the baby’s life, but that gets no acknowledgement in the story. The description of what happened makes no sense, either. There’s a tremendous amount of misunderstanding and/or exaggeration in the story.

            For example, Chims claims that the doctor pushed the baby back in when it sounds like the doctor actually rotated the baby. She claims at her postpartum visit the doctor cut open her scarring and burned it closed when he probably excised granulation tissue from a poorly healing laceration.

            I can believe that the doctor wasn’t compassionate, and I can believe that Chims misunderstands what happened, but that has nothing to do with rape or violation.

          • Chims

            *sigh* I said that this was including very little detail. There was so much that happened. I delivered her head the first time, and she was facing the wrong way. Dr. H pushed her back inside – he then rotated inside. I was told to push, and delivered her head a second time. That time her cord was wrapped around her neck from the first time he pushed her in and rotated her. He unwrapped the cord and shoved her back in. He called for an OR and (by his own words) was going to have to cut me raw… BUT she flat-lined. I pushed, he pulled. She came out blue, limp, no heart rate, not breathing. Is this not clear enough? Forgive me for not having the medical degree to know that ‘dead’ is not ‘dead’ unless resuscitation is impossible.

            The second visit he told me afterward that he cut the original incision back open and cauterized it shut so it would heal better. Is this also clear enough?

            I have no need or wish to exaggerate my story. I have the perspective of a lay person it happened to, NOT the perspective of a third party medical personnel. I have the description I was given, not a doctorate. I have the vivid memory of how it felt, the visual description of my husband, my sister, the nurses, and the doctor. The day was horrific. There is no need to embellish.

            As to no mention of him saving her life. It is not here, but it existed at the time. I went back and thanked him in person. I cried on him, and hugged him. I sent him cards, I sent him pictures. Do you need to hear this? Is this relevant to my request for a term to understand ‘what’ happened, so I may share THAT term in lieu of ‘birth rape’ when I hear other mommas bring it up? I am a decent and genuine person. You do not need to vilify me to get anywhere in this story.

            I was asking for a term to share with other women. That equates asking for a way to help out from the inside. The fact that you, a stranger, a third party are trying to hold me accountable for detailed descriptions is entirely beside the point. It is very kind of me to oblige you and answer your accusations at all.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Saying he “cut open my internal scarring and burned it closed,” is very different than saying that he identified improperly healing scar tissue and excised it with cautery.

            If you thanked, hugged and cried on your doctor with gratitude, does he have any idea that you felt violated? Did you discuss it with him so he could explain his actions?

          • Chims

            I moved away, and I have not returned.

            You are not addressing my question in any form. Dr. H did not use anything to numb the area so I felt the cutting and I felt the cautery. The cutting felt like cutting. The cautery felt like burning. How is this so very different from what I said? What does it change? Or are you just pointing out that I have no right to feel traumatized because his actions can be found in outdated textbooks?

            I had one question and you are so focused on my doctor that you do not address that. You are putting responsibility in my lap for understanding the medical definition of what happened to me, as if that makes the actual experiencing of it null and void.

            You are also putting responsibility in my lap for the doctor. First you needed to know that I kissed his ass for saving her life. Now you to know that I have approached him, a man I feel terrified of and powerless against, and let HIM know I felt so I can hear his side.

            I am sorry, but you are doing the exact thing that makes mamas hide in dark corners to lick their wounds in secret. You are interrogating me as if I did something wrong by not having a medical understanding of terms.

            I understand that you will probably reply that approaching him is for my healing, and that it is somehow my job to help him better himself as a physician by having this discussion. I moved away from that place (as in out of state), and dealt with years of depression and recovery. My second pregnancy seven years later brought back major PTSD, and I suffer horribly the nights before my first daughter’s birth date. (Not in front of her, not on her special day… I use her actual day to try to make up for her birth by giving her the best day possible.)

            It never occurred to me, once I was facing my demons and able to admit to my spouse and myself how terrified I truly was, to cross state lines and talk to him. So the answer is no. No, I did not. I don’t feel the need to now, as I live far away and only suffer the worst of it on the birthdays and every random so often when something like this article hits a huge trigger. I wish I had help in the aftermath. I wish I had clarity of thought. I wish I had anything but the trauma I had.

            That said, stop asking me about MY role in this. Understand that the things that happened, happened TO me and not because of me. Understand that I live a productive daily life. Understand that I only just now have confidence to put a voice out there on behalf of the newly traumatized mommies.

            Understand that other mamas like me exist out there, and they need someone to talk to WITHOUT JUDGMENT. They are calling out from the darkness and a few of them are using this ugly term – not for attention, but for help. Turning the tables on them, insinuating they are liars and attention-seekers, working hard to show them how wrong they are about exact medical terms… all of it only proves to them that they were right. They are alone. The medical field doesn’t really care, not really.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I can only assess by what you have been writing and what I’ve read of your own blog, but it sounds like the biggest problem here is lack of understanding.

            You chose to comment on an old post about “birth rape” for two reasons, first to seek sympathy for your experience, and second to validate your feeling as though you had been assaulted or raped.

            You told your story in such a way as to make the doctor’s behavior incomprehensible and therefore vicious. But you left out critical factors that explain some parts of why your doctor behaved the way that he did, thereby reinforcing the implication of viciousness.

            You had a severe shoulder dystocia and the efforts to resolve it were extremely painful. I understand that, but that doesn’t make it assault and it certainly doesn’t make it rape.

            Similarly, treating the abnormal healing of your lacerations was painful and I understand that, too. But, again, the worst we can say about your doctor is that he lacked compassion, not that he assaulted or raped you.

            I get the impression that this is not the first time that you have met resistance to your interpretation of events. You want to believe that you were assaulted; you want to blame your doctor for problems that you believe resulted from this assault. But, again, just because you want to describe it as assault doesn’t mean that it was assault.

            Do I think you bear some responsibility for how you feel? Yes, I do. I’ve already seen the way that you have twisted your story to make it conform to the conclusion that you want to reach. I suspect that there are further details which might go a long way toward putting what happened in context.

            You had an extremely traumatic birth. I don’t doubt that. But that doesn’t mean that it was anyone’s fault, and your insistence that it is someone’s fault affects how you feel.

            Had you shown up and told the story of an nearly deadly shoulder dystocia with lots of painful manipulations required to save her life and a doctor who lacked the compassion to properly explain things to you, you would have gotten a uniformly sympathetic response.

            Instead you chose to write a comment in the post about “birth rape” arguing that what happened to you might not be rape, but it certainly was a horrible assault. I’m not sure that it was anything of the kind. Painful, yes. Traumatic, yes. Insensitive on your doctor’s part, yes. An assault? Not based on what you’ve written.

          • Chims

            The assault in question was not her shoulder dystocia, that is part of our story. The assault was the manual ripping out of the placenta with no warning. The follow up visit also felt like assault.

            You have so well explained it away that I should get on my knees and thank God that I was not really traumatized and it was all a lie I perpetrated to get a rise out of people. *eyeroll* Thank God those years of my life were not real! I can go re-live them now like nothing happened!

            I wrote my comment to get sympathy? You read my blog about my crabs and my garden and drew from it that I am exactly the kind of person who goes digging for sympathy? Really? REALLY??? I think you are mistaken.

            I wrote my feelings and my experience because I am not the only one who has felt violated and the tone of the article did not just dismiss the term, it was invalidating to women world-wide. I read three birth rape articles yesterday, and replied on this one without reading the date (excuse me for not paying attention to the ‘age’) because this one was written by an OB. This one just might have answers for me that come from a professional. My motive has been penned down several times. You view me in a certain way, but that does not make you correct.

            Nine years later it is a lot easier to see the medical side of it. I can even agree to some of your assessment in the comment to which I am replying about specific procedures.

            The shoulder dystocia isn’t in question. The fact that it was horrifying isn’t even in question. The two traumas that hit me as fitting the description (not the term) of birth rape were the two I focused on. I only brought up the dystocia again bc your go-to response was to essentially call me an attention-seeking liar. I gave you courtesy and opened up a bit more about my experience.

            I do hold the doctor responsible in the sense that he should have told us to have a cesarean. He mentioned that he should do an ultrasound. He even said afterward that I should have had a cesarean. If this was his medical opinion, why did he not tell us? I would have done it without batting an eyelash. I DO have maternal guilt. I DO hold myself accountable. My first words to my daughter were weepy “I’m sorry. I am so sorry.” over and over again. You think I do not see my own role? I felt like hell for years over this.

            I do not accept your assessment of me as a person. I do not want your sympathy for myself. I want it for other mothers, who are new to trauma. I started a group last year when I saw a mom being battered online, and women are still trickling in every single day with new and yet similar traumatic experiences. I want medical eyes to turn towards victims, not against them. Excuse me if my experience was not as pretty and concise as you think it should be. Excuse me for having a visceral and emotional reaction that is actually quite natural, but seems twisted and manipulative to someone in the medical field who has a book to look at but no compass on the human experience of these procedures.

            We are at a stalemate. Your concern is your incorrect perception of my motive. Your concern is how a doctor is made to look. Your concern is not the mamas who need you, and God forbid a single other woman of them ever run across you in the future. You may have the last word, but you are incorrect.

          • Guesteleh

            I’m sorry you’re getting so much blowback from folks here. This is an intense place and it’s hard for people to refrain from attacking sometimes. FWIW, I think you are entirely justified in how you feel about the doctor’s behavior. That is completely unacceptable. I know a lot of wonderful doctors but there are also a lot of shitty ones out there who shouldn’t be allowed to lay a finger on anyone. I hope you get some support to deal with what sounds like PTSD. It’s treatable so don’t feel like you have to just live with your feelings. And it would give you a safe place to talk about this without fielding nasty comments from internet strangers. Good luck and peace to you.

          • toni

            seconded. i hate when people who have been genuinely hurt and treated like dirt come here to share and get all this flak. as if only women hurt by nutty midwives deserve sympathy. when it’s CPMs of course we believe every horrible detail but when it’s an OB oh no you must just be mistaken, silly girl

          • birthbuddy

            I strongly (very very strongly) suggest that you request a full de-briefing with your doctor.
            That way you can deal with facts, instead of reliving misinterpretations.

          • AmyH

            I had mild granulation fixed with a local, and it was rough. A worse memory than the birth, for sure. To have severe internal granulation fixed without anesthetic (and when I googled granulation, thankfully AFTER my procedure, I saw other ladies describing having it done), and on top of that without having someone prep you about why and what to expect – my feelings are with you! Even IF the original tearing, laceration, procedures etc. were necessary and enough of an emergency that they couldn’t be explained, I can’t formulate an explanation for dealing with granulation that way.

          • Chims

            I have not edited my comment from yesterday in the slightest.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Amy, own up to the fact that you have not attended every birth in the world. Things might have occurred that you have no idea of. Stop trying to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. You’re just one person. Perhaps you do not treat your patients unkindly and so you cannot imagine doctors doing that. Perhaps you do and you are trying to justify what you do by putting down mothers who share their experiences. But if the way that you disregard what mothers are saying here is any indication of how you treat your patients, then I would suspect you are in the second category. Honoring others does not seem to be your mode. How does it feel to be up there on your little cloud in the sky, thunderbolt in hand, ready to smite anyone who dares to tell their story?

          • Samantha06

            Patricia have you ever worked in a hospital? A Labor and Delivery unit? Ever seen the death of a baby from an attempted home birth that “didn’t work out”? Or just witnessed death period? I’m guessing probably not. You cannot possibly understand the level of frustration healthcare providers feel when they are forced to try to try to fix the consequences of an incompetent home birth midwife. As I have said before, try walking in our shoes for a week or two, then let me know what you think.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Sounds awful, Samantha. So sorry you have had to witness that. I am not sure that the current midwifery model is all that different than the medical model. I have read stories of midwife trainings that sound very similar to what I’ve heard about med school training. I think we need to rethink the whole wheel… In the meanwhile, perhaps the medical world can break loose from its deep rut of trying to force births. Horror stories abound – on both sides of the issue. I am not actually advocating midwifery, but maybe what midwifery USED to be – just BEING there and being a comforting presence. I’ve seen midwife-directed births that made me want to punch the midwife. :) Yet in Europe, the scene is quite different. There is very little intrusion on the part of the midwife-nurse-birth person and their stats are much better than ours.

          • Bombshellrisa

            It’s called lots of experience coupled with an excellent education and extensive training. You don’t have to be there to understand the mechanics of why something happened.

          • Samantha06

            Where are you Patricia? We are patiently awaiting your response…

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How many have you attended?

            You still haven’t explained how you supposedly know the intent of obstetricians.

            You can believe whatever you want, but it’s going to take some actual evidence to convince others.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            When I work with a woman who can’t talk about her experience giving birth without sobbing, I know there is a very abused woman there. Where there is respect and communication, compassion and kindness, people are listened to, heard, and acknowledged.

            Many, many women are deeply humiliated during their hospital births, Amy. And after reading what you write, I can’t help but think you might be disrespectful in person as well.

            Online, you humiliate people who dare to complain about the medical model. If your medical work is so valuable, why don’t you write articles supportive of the type of birth you recommend, rather than sarcastic, cynical articles that ridicule people who dare to think differently than you do? They do not reflect well on you, Amy.

          • Box of Salt

            Patricia Robinett “Where there is respect and communication, compassion and kindness, people are listened to, heard, and acknowledged.”

            Yet, all you have offered in your comments here is blaming the victim for being afraid.

          • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

            Blaming? Or empowering? Offering clarity so that people can see that it’s possible to get out of “victimhood”? There is no blame in my words… and if people want to know how to get out of fear, I will be happy to share what works. We are fortunate to live in this time when many wonderful ways to let go of fear are available to us. Take your pick…

          • AgainstMedicalRape

            And will *you* please finally explain how *you* know the intent of obstetricians, doctor?

            Your entire article implies your conclusion that the intent of obstetricians is never about sexual power.

            But it’s going to take some actual evidence to convince us – if you know what I mean?

          • Samantha06

            AMR, are you planning to seek medical care if you experience complications during your unassisted home birth?

    • Who?

      That’s a terrible story, and I’m sorry you suffered so much and had a baby die as well.

      But how does it move you forward to call it ‘rape’? What was done was in your genital region, which was the appropriate area to be focussing on, however hamfistedly or indifferently the doctor was undertaking medical procedures. It may be that you had signed forms earlier that provided the necessary consent, which is not to say he shouldn’t have talked you through it.

      ‘Rape’ is a word with legal connotations that aren’t helpful in discussing what happened to individuals and what can be done to prevent it in future.

      And no, it isn’t a distinction without a difference. He penetrated the part of your body he came to work to deal with: that is not the same as sexual penetration. Lioness talks below about intent on one hand and experience on the other, and makes good points. You experienced it as sexual, but it’s most unlikely that was his intention. Does it matter? To you, yes, which is why reframing it won’t make it go away but might make it easier for you to live with.

      • Chims

        Maybe you missed the part where I said I don’t want to call it that… don’t as in it turns my stomach. My apparently less clear question is what DO we call it?

        • http://www.ACIMessentials.com Patricia Robinett

          Rape is the closest term to it. Violation. Power-over. Ruthless disregard for the ‘other’. Violence. Violation. Disrespect. I was circumcised as a little girl and wrote a book… the only title that felt right to me was “The Rape of Innocence.”

      • Chims

        I just noticed that I did not type the specific words “I don’t want to call it that.” I assure you, that is what is in my heart. I only just learned the term yesterday, and as evidenced by my post, I still have a lot of issues remaining from that day. I can see where trying to type as quickly as my emotions kept me from being concise and clear. My one and only question is what do we call what I went through? It is real, it has lasting traumatic effects, and clearly mamas are crying out rather loudly for this kind of treatment to be dealt with.

        In my case, the OB told us that we would need plenty of ultrasounds because she was measuring large, and then never scheduled another one. He asked us on the day she was born if we wanted a cesarean because she was measuring (in his words) 46 weeks, even though I was 38 weeks along. He repeated that morning that I should have an ultrasound… and then he again failed to schedule it. A cesarean would have saved us both so much trouble. Just please tell me what the correct term is, so that I can share it around the community from the INSIDE… from the perspective of a hurting mother, and not an ass-covering medical professional. (Referring to him and the others who have harmed women.)

    • AllieFoyle

      I’m so sorry about what happened to you. I believe you and I think it was wrong. Your suffering is real and you are not alone.

      I’m afraid you’re going to receive some unkind, hostile responses, but I want you to know that not everyone here feels that way. Some of us have struggled in similar ways, and others are compassionate about the impact of an experience like this on a woman’s life and health. Things like this are so difficult to speak about, and especially so when there is no recognized term or framework for discussion and people pass judgement and withhold compassion. I wish you peace and healing.

  • sadlady

    Be careful what you call rape. You wouldn’t want an ob who had no intent in the realm of sexuality while doing what they thought was a routine cervical check, but got soon be reason it shipped their mind to ask permission. It would be awful for an other wise squeaky clean lady to pop up on a sex offender list in the neighborhood! The neighbors would think omg what did she do?! Did she molest a little boy? No she got overtired on the job and forgot to be nice during delivery. The sex criminal list doesn’t specify and that is not fair. Prosecute the abuse but please don’t use that word! Call it something else!

    • sadlady

      Riddled with typos die to predictive text… I meant slipped their mind….etc

    • Lioness

      you are mistaken. that is legally classified as an assault, not mere rudeness. it is illegal to touch a patient without their consent, and being tired is never excuse for assault.
      however, classifying it as a sexual assault is a grey and murky question, because it is most probably not a sexualized act for the perpetrator, although it feels very much like a sexual violation to the patient. I would therefore avoid the term rape because rape and sexual assault are legal terms with specific legal connotations.

      • Sadlady

        Um yeah I was agreeing with you. Don’t call it rape. Prosecute but call it something else. I don’t want to see these people on sex offender lists with child molesters is all I’m saying. You can get tired to the point of misbehaving I bet, but I doubt rape. I just mentioned that for their bad motivation. I meant whoever was like *yawn*rape. No that’s premeditated. But I can see how someone could be haphazard and forget to ask and then get all mad when the.woman acts.surprised. It’s still assault but it starts from a different aggravation than rape.

        • Lioness

          on the other hand, i believe when people describe their experience as rape, they are referring to there emotional experience of the event. I relate, because I too feel raped by what occured during my birth experience. Most of them i believe, don’t mean it in a legal sense. Thus, denying their experience because it wasns’t legally rape, is dismissive and retraumatizing. And also irrelevant, if the point is to deny hospital abuses. While i would still advise caution regarding the use of the word because of its legal connotations, if the person is clear regarding not intending it legally, then yes, the term may be very appropriate.

  • Suzywriter

    So when three junior doctors (the short coats) came in to my delivery and a fourth threw back the flimsy drape, pushed my legs apart and spread open my vulva even though I tried to squirm away and asked him what he was doing and why he was touching me, then shoved his fingers into my vagina without even asking for my consent, it wasn’t rape? My baby’s life was not in danger. He was demonstrating his humiliating techniques to his minions. The minions then took turns shoving their fingers into my displayed genitals, feeling my vagina and cervix while I repeatedly told them to stop, screamed even. The nurse glanced over and said ‘They’ll be done in a minute. They’re just feeling your cervix.” JUST feeling my cervix? For what benefit to me?

    It was all about them. They wanted to feel my vagina for their own satisfaction. I don’t care what they wanted to practice or learn, they ignored my protests and took what they wanted from my body in the form of exposing my private parts and penetrating me as they chose. That’s rape, lady.

    • Anonymous

      Why didn’t you file charges?

    • Lioness

      see my response above. it was clearly an assault but whether or not it was a sexual assault is a rather murky question. Although to me, thats really a secondary question- ANY assault is horrendous and should be treated as such.

    • guest

      No, it was not for their satisfaction. No, you were not raped.

    • ?

      If you’re so certain this constitutes rape, why have you not pressed charges?

  • teegsmarre

    Rape doesn’t just have to mean sexual intercourse, the dictionary meaning of rape includes: an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation, which I believe describes the situations perfectly. So birth rape is a perfectly correct term to descripe what happens to adused women in labour.

  • Milla
  • Azayki

    You are completely ignoring the fact that in “birth rape” the place where a woman is assaulted is her vagina and other sexual organs. So yes, a man can punch someone and it is assault. But if a man touches a woman’s vagina without her permission, it is SEXUAL assault. These women are being sexually assaulted.

    • Stupid people everywhere

      So if I kick a guy in the balls is it sexual assault?

  • Aaron Little

    Your definition of rape is wrong. It does not require the word “woman” in there. Women are not the only people who can be raped.

  • Rhea S

    I loved the examples about rape vs. assault– really helps drive the point home. Another great post, Dr. Amy!

  • FF4life

    Obs try to deliver babies with as little damage to mother and child as possible. If people took a second to realize that these doctors are minimizing complications as much as possible they wouldn’t feel so offended that the doctor didn’t ask before performing a life saving or damage minimizing action. It’s like asking a person having a heart attack if it’s ok to perform CPR.

    Birth can be traumatic. It’s not all roses and confetti. Before modern interventions women and children dying during labor was a common occurrence.

    People also like to focus on the fact that csections are pushed when there is even slight distress. Well duh. If you had to choose between having a csection or risking the possibility of causing brain damage because your oversized baby may get stuck and be deprived of oxygen you are going to choose the route hat has the least risks every time.

    Sorry but people need to stop seeing childbirth as this magical thing where nothing can go wrong and look at the realities.

    • Anonymoose

      Legally, you’re required to ask someone before you perform CPR. I worked at the red cross and we had a case where one of our students was being sued for performing CPR without asking permission first. She saved the guys life and he sued her. We then had to fix all our courses to include an extra step asking permission.
      I totally agree with your comment though.

      • anonymous

        In the US it’s assumed that if the person is unconscious there;s something along the lines of “default consent” to perform CPR. Not sure about other places.

      • Sara

        Isn’t consciousness an obvious sign that CPR isn’t necessary? When I got certified it was pretty clear that you don’t perform CPR on someone who is responsive.

  • yentavegan

    Remember the scene from the movie “The Colour Purple” when the main character gives birth to the child conceived from an incestuous rape? Remember how she is left alone to writhe in pain and then her newborn is taken away from her still dripping wet and even before the placenta had been delivered…. remember her pain and sadness from being powerless? That is birth-rape.

    • Anonymous

      Who raped her then?

      • Kumquatwriter

        Her stepfather. Both in the conception and yentavegan’s birth rape example.

  • Laura K

    you’re a horrible person who has no consideration for others.

    • moto_librarian

      Gee, thanks for the insightful comment.

  • moto_librarian

    I hate the term “birth rape.” It has been chosen because it is deliberately provocative. Now before I proceed any further with my comment, let me say this unequivocally: I absolutely believe that medical assault happens, and there are few instances when a woman feels more vulnerable than when she is giving birth. I fully believe that medical assault should be reported and punished. It is completely unacceptable.

    That being said, I often note that events suddenly become characterized as birth rape after conversations with NCB advocates. I firmly believe that HCPs should be getting informed consent, but there truly are times when an emergency is occurring that precludes it. When I started to hemorrhage after the birth of my first child, my CNM told one of the L&D nurses to give me a shot of pitocin, and she inserted cytotec rectally. She told me that she was going to examine my uterus for clots; she did not ask. Given that I had no pain medication for delivery, this was a horrific experience for me, but it absolutely had to be done. She talked me through what she was doing up to the point where I was in and out of consciousness from blood loss and pain. My husband had to sign the consent form for me to be taken back to surgery, and he consented to a hysterectomy on my behalf should it be necessary. Fortunately, it was not needed, but I had no say in the matter because I was incapable of making an informed decision at that point.

    This experience was traumatic for me, and I know that some people would equate it to birth rape. It was not, nor was it assault. It was a true emergency that required swift action to save my life. When someone says they are going to check you for clots, it is difficult to envision what that really means. In my case, it meant my midwife was inside me up to her elbows. Of course that was incredibly invasive, but again, it was done to save my life. Given the NCB habit of dismissing real complications as “unnecessary interventions,” I wonder how often this attitude causes women to rewrite their experiences as birth rapes.

    • AllieFoyle

      It’s interesting what becomes traumatic for one person versus another. I’ve read your story a number of times and think that it must have been a living nightmare to experience, but that you are a strong and resilient person to be able to work it through and come to terms with it as you have.

      Experiences in L&D can be undeniably intense and distressing, as well as hauntingly persistent for some time afterward. I read your account and think how great it is that you’ve been able to process it as well as you have. I also think that some other woman could have a similar experience, but for various reasons (personality characteristics, relationship with the provider, perceived support, history of previous trauma, etc.) come out of it feeling much less ok than you have.

      I think there has to be some kind of understanding of and language around these kinds of outcomes so that women have some context for working through their experiences besides the cult of NCB, and so that providers can be aware of the potential for problems and avoid or minimize them when possible and also identify when a woman has been traumatized and offer her the appropriate treatments and support.

      • moto_librarian

        I am not naturally strong or resilient emotionally. I credit staying on my antidepressants throughout pregnancy as the one thing that helped me to keep myself together after this happened. I replayed the event obsessively for a good month postpartum, and really didn’t think that I wanted to have any more children. I do think that doctors and midwives should have conversations about how the birth went at the postpartum checkup. It would probably help a lot of women to get the facts about what was going on, and if necessary, referral for counseling.

        I will also say that when we made the decision to have a second child, I talked at length with my CNMs about how awful that first birth was. Notations were made on the front page of my chart about my complications, and as soon as the on-call midwife determined that I was in active labor, she ordered my epidural. That support really did make a difference for me.

    • Young CC Prof

      You know, your story makes me realize a key problem with the whole birth-rape narrative.

      After a scary birthing experience like yours, woman immersed in reality might say things like, “Wow, I had a scary time during birth, I almost died, it hurt so much more than I expected, I need to take some time to deal with this, not sure I want to have more children,” and so on.

      The natural-childbirth cultist who was primed to view all interventions negatively and expected birth to be safe, fun and beautiful says, “The reason I feel traumatized was that the medical professionals were mean to me.”

    • Ob in OZ

      Excellent post. Wish it didn’t happen to you, but glad your alive to write about it, with a bonus of having the option of more children. A different person who initially would have refused some of these interventions (hopefully once unconscious their partner would have stopped her chewing on the palcenta and consented to everything), most likely ending up witha worse outcome and then blaming the staff for the worse outcome.
      In this kind of emergency we “walk and talk” by doing what we have to do and explaining along the way. Wouldn’t expect you or your partner would remember anything that is said, but at the time at the least we are hopefully getting a nod that it’s ok to proceed. Once surgery is warranted then someone will have to sign a consent form. Immediately after we talk to the patient (if concious) and the partner, and go through it again the next day. If the patient still has questions while in the hospital and we are not seeing her daily, especially if the word debrief isn’t actually written in the chart, we go back and go through it again. Finally most patients are offered a 6 week appt with us instead of midwife or GP if needed. You would expect this to be enough, but after all of that I had someone complain about 4 months postpartum, after never saying a word about any issues through these other visits. Bottom line, I think between postpartum depression (which it sounds like you were pro-active in avoiding?) and unexpected complications without an effective way in dealing with them becomes the same with the woo available (internet,ruined her birth plan, affected bonding after,etc) it is now rape/post-traumatic stress disorder . poorly written as I’m rushed but wanted to be supportive and rant at the same time.

    • Ob in OZ

      should have just read the other posts and agreed

    • Nmtupperlady

      The difference to me, is your provider told you what they were doing. Mine (in a nonemergent situation) did no, despite being point blank asked and agreeing less than a minute before. When I questioned him about it, his response was “you have an epidural I didn’t think you’d be able to feel it.” Meaning he thought he could do whatever he wanted to my body, as long as he didn’t think I’d be able to object. Simiar to saying “well I thought she as to drunk to notice.” That is why it was birth rape.

      • Kumquatwriter

        That doesn’t make it “rape”

      • moto_librarian

        What your doctor did was wrong. I am not disputing that. I still believe it was medical assault, not rape. There is no sexual component to what you are describing.

        • AllieFoyle

          Well, there may be a sexual component to her, so even if it doesn’t satisfy the legal criteria for sexual assault and very few people would consider it appropriate to prosecute in that case, it may have had a psychological effect on the patient very similar to what would be evoked by what most would consider a more straightforward type of sexual assault.

          It’s falling out of fashion, but it bears saying that that episiotomy without explicit consent (or even warning!) was pretty commonplace not long ago. I don’t particularly blame individual doctors–by and large, their intent was to help and they were doing as they’d been trained–but it should be acknowledged that this practice was upsetting for many women even though it was considered perfectly acceptable medical practice.

  • emkay

    on the topic of unwanted and innaproporate sexual touching, Ina May is probably responsible for actual rape during birth.

    • Lioness

      instead of throwing out haphazard allegations, kindly specify what you are talking about and include some evidence please
      ? As long as you are accusing a specific person it is your responsibility to back up what you are talking about.

      • sameguest

        Have you not read the “button” comments on this site?

  • Ob in OZ

    Excellent topic and discussion. There are a few words that generate a lot of passion that we all know regarding black Americans, jewish people, other ethnic groups and minorities, and I believe this is one of them. Which is why I don’t think that a group of rape victims saying it is OK to use the term birth rape means that this is an exceptable lay-term, just like some black people might say some white people can use the N word. Words matter, and words hurt. Imagine being accused of birth rape by a patient for doing your job (everyone present including her doula felt the doctor was completely appropriate. review of notes in chart showed excellent and legible documentation for once). Then the patient who can remain anonymous plasters the doctor’s name on the internet which means that when a new patient wants to look them up they now see these posts about raping a patient. The reality of the patient’s 5 page birth planned was ruined because she couldn’t push the baby out and the doctor who put up with you all day finally says if you can’t push the baby out (now 3+ hours without an epidural) then a vacuum is recommended or otherwise you’ll need a c-s, then delivers the baby with one pull and hands you a beautiful child but all you want to remember is that they stuck a vacuum on the baby’s head which felt like the doctor raped you…. So let’s just say I think people should ALWAYS choose their words carefully, and should not use certain words ever, and other words only in the context that they were meant to be used. I am not saying rape can only be uttered by those who use it in a legal sense, but like calling someone an N word or nazi (the other n word in my mind) or a few others, and I AM going to feel much less sympathy for the “victim” 99% of the time because that his how often it is the patient that is upset that others took the welfare of their as yet unborn child as more important than a f@#&ing birth plan!

    • Young CC Prof

      Well put. Yes, there are people who have been sexually abused by health care providers, it totally happens, although it’s probably pretty uncommon. A doctor in my town was arrested for it a few years back.

      However, someone speaking rudely to you during labor is not rape, even if this person was examining you at the time. Failure to follow your birth plan because the doctor recognized that the birth plan was no longer medically feasible isn’t rape. And furthermore, encouraging women to view rudeness from care providers as a major emotional trauma isn’t necessarily helpful in terms of recovery, and it may increase friction in future encounters with the medical profession.

      Assuming that your baby was born successfully with no major damage to either party, if you found your caregivers rude, inappropriate, unresponsive, or anything else, write a detailed and specific letter of complaint, and send it to the hospital authorities and the medical board. (Do not use the word “rape” unless the legal definition applies, in which case you should also consider a police report.) Even if the authorities don’t act immediately, they’ll file the complaint, and they will act if a pattern of similar complaints from different patients appears.

  • Kusman

    Does the “Rape” and “Assault” have difference law rule?
    So that will be a confuse on court to decide the condemn…

  • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

    “But childbirth activists abuse the word “rape,” and demean the experience of victims of actual rape,”

    No, it doesn’t. It does not demean me as a victim of rape. At all. The women at The Curvature (an anti-rape website, ran by rape victims) wrote a piece recently that was supportive of the term birth rape.

    If you are more worried about what word someone chooses to describe an experience in their life instead of the actual impact the behavior has on victims then your priorities are totally wrong. I can tell you now that the impact on my life from medical battery during childbirth is hauntingly similar to the impact rape made on my life. It feels exactly the same. You are invaded. You are ignored. You never feel safe again.

    When you are raped everyone bends over backwards to explain to you why it wasn’t rape, why it doesn’t count, etc. Some people even jump in to tell you that you are using the wrong word and blah blah blah, like that is helpful. That is what I read in this article. Perhaps you should try some empathy.

    How dare you tell women how to name their own experiences. You’re an OB, what the hell makes you qualified to tell women if their experience counts or not? Rape activists and mental health professionals do not have a problem with victims naming their experiences however they feel like- its encouraged. Maybe you should wise up to how shitty it is for you to continue to whine about women using words you don’t like to describe things that THEY EXPERIENCED and YOU DID NOT.

    • Lisa the Raptor

      I might buy this if using the term rape did not imply that there was a rapist. It’s not just about how you feel, but about the fact that you are making an accusation that someone is a rapist. That could potentially get you sued were your allegations to cause someone to lose their job or to lose patients. It’s not just about our feelings. Rape is a crime, not a feeling. Violated is a feeling.

    • Algernon

      “You’re an OB, what the hell makes you qualified to tell women if their experience counts or not?”

      And you’re a fucking idiot. You can’t call something rape if it isn’t actually rape. Call it for what it is, “birth rape” is nothing more than standard medical malpractice. It sucks that it happened during child birth, but that doesn’t make it rape, unless the medical staff forced you into sexual activities without your consent. It’s highly unlikely that a doctor id going to take the time, mid delivery, to force him/herself on the mother.

      This whole ‘birth rape’ shit stinks of an attention seeking, self pitying, way to play the victim card to make a situation sound like something that it is not, was not, and never will be. The word rape refers to sexually based crimes, meaning all other crimes of a non sexual nature are not rape. I’m sorry medical malpractice cater to the special snowflake mentality people seem to have about things.

  • http://drakonofthemists.tumblr.com/ Dyke by choice

    I wish natural birth people who stop abusing social justice language and scaring the crap out of me until I realize what kind of site it is as with this site: http://mumanu.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/violence-against-pregnant-and-labouring-women/

  • Busbus

    I agree with Dr. Amy that “birth rape” is not the appropriate term. However, I do think that the special position of a woman in labor – vulnerable, in pain and often not in control of her body, circumstances or rational mind – needs to be taken into account (possibly as an aggravating factor?) when judging such issues.

    I wanted to see what is usually meant when people refer to “birth rape”, and came across this story on theunnecesarean.com: http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2008/12/17/more-than-just-rude-behavior-the-rest-of-catherine-skols-all.html#sthash.9GzZbtGc.dpbs

    Now, if we take this story at face value – which given that I know nothing else about the case I will – this is certainly an egregious violation. I still think “birth rape” is not the right term, but I do think that providers who do things like that need to be sanctioned and possibly even criminally prosecuted. (Under assault laws, I guess? But I’m not a lawyer.) I am sure there are people who throw accusations of “birth rape” around quite liberally, and that is obnoxious (and makes light of actual rape). But I wouldn’t dismiss a woman’s accusation just because she or others frame it under the title of “birth rape”, even if I don’t agree with using that term.

    • Expat

      The story sounds like an encounter with a jerk with poor bedside manner, but why didn’t the plaintiff get the epidural when it was recommended at 6 cm? The central theme in the complaints is being denied pain relief at 8 cm and the doctor worrying out loud about hemorrhage and ordering blood as a precaution due to the prolonged pushing and the fact that it was her fifth baby. He took a cell phone call related to another patient and then he didn’t do a great job with anesthetic for the stitching. That happened to me, but I didn’t take it as a personal attack. The complaint about the gauge of needle used to inject the anasthetic doesn’t sound based on any expert knowledge and the dialogue she claims sounds partly outlandish and imagined. Plus, prolonged pushing is not a low risk situation as the plaintiff seems to believe. She wanted a more relaxed and la die da atmosphere, but it probably wasn’t warranted. The story just has too many NCB tropes for it to be believable for me. The doctor is painted as a sadistic lunatic while the resident and nurse just idly stand by. If he was really such a monster, someone would’ve stopped him. I ‘m sure he was a jerk, but the exaggeration just makes it sound like it is half made up. The patient sounds – well, it takes two to tango. Her final complaint is that the demon on-call doc filling in for her regular ob didn’t visit her post partum. Gimme a break princess.

      • Busbus

        I hear you. I don’t know what really went on in that case, and I agree that some of the complaints sound a little over the top. I would also assume that if she is right, that there would be more complaints about this doctor, that other staff would be aware of the issue and that she would have good chances in a complaint to patient advocate or whatever other regular avenues exist for such cases (especially if he really stitched her up with the wrong needle – for which there should be witnesses and maybe even a record). But in the end I have too little insight into hospital procedures etc. to be able to make a guess on how much of this story is believable or not. And I do think that even just “bullying” or scaring someone in labor is even worse than being a jerk to someone who comes in for another procedure where they are not naked and in pain while they talk to the doctor. I still hear your point. And in any case, it’s not “rape”.

        • Busbus

          I went back now and read almost all the comments on this post up to now. I am trying to get to the bottom of why I don’t feel quite happy with some of the things I read. Below, some of the commenters pointed out that some people are just weird, and that their negative birth experience may be due to their weirdness and not to something bad the provider did. I am sure that happens sometimes, as some people *are* just weird. I also assume that – mostly due to NCB propaganda – there must be a sizable group of people who come into the hospital ready to “fight the doctors for their NCB” which I am sure doesn’t set up a good relationship to begin with. However, I think it shouldn’t be our first conclusion when we read an account like this that there must have been something wrong with the person making the complaint, or that it takes “two to tango” etc. (Expat, this is not in response to your post but rather to some things I read further down in the comments.) Somehow, that gets awfully close to “blaming the victim” as we know it from sexual assault cases.

          Just like I am sure there are weird people out there who construe ultimately benign events into something malicious, I am also sure there are bad OBs and doctors and other HCPs out there – just like there are bad apples in every profession. Plus, just because someone is not the epitome of reason and believability doesn’t mean that something bad may not have in fact still happened to them. Furthermore, I would venture that abusive HCPs (and I use the word abusive in its broadest sense here) would be more likely to act inappropriately towards patients who they view as being “beneath them” or who they believe will not speak up or will not be believed if they do – ie, poor people, immigrants or people of color, people with bad social skills (ie, “weird” people) etc.

          Before I came to the US, I had an OB in Europe in whose office I overheard her interaction with another patient who (presumably) was there for a pelvic exam while I was in the other exam room next door waiting to be examined myself. The patient, who based on her voice and accent must have been a young Turkish immigrant, suddenly shrieked at the OB to stop the exam. She then started to cry and, after being admonished by the OB to “speak up” finally said, sobbing, that she couldn’t do it. What shocked me, though, was my OBs reaction – she was so cold and harsh, raised her voice and practically scolded the girl that she needs to put her hand in there now to do her work, and that the patient needs to get it together now. She practically snarled something along the lines of “now open your legs – I can’t wait all day!” and then abruptly ended the exam and left the girl, who was still sobbing. I immediately thought of a sexual assault in the past of that patient (who wouldn’t, right!?) and couldn’t believe how my OB had talked to her. That same OB had said some rude things to me, as well (and I believe she was known for that), but she had never addressed me – a white, well educated woman – in that harsh and belittling tone she used with the young girl in the room next to me. I switched to a different OB very soon after that day (and in the middle of my pregnancy), in part due to that occurrence.

          I am relating this story because it is my personal anecdote of a doctor treating a patient horribly, but I don’t think it needs anecdotes to “prove” that this happens sometimes. Of course it does. Bad things
          happen in all professions. In addition, while bad things do of course happen to men and women, there is a history in medicine – as in many other areas – to be particularly dismissive of women’s symptoms and experiences. Several other posters further down in this thread have related their own negative experiences with HCPs.

          So, given that these things happen – and I don’t think this is really in question – I don’t want to be automatically dismissive towards any one account of abusive treatment (again, in the broadest sense of the word) by a HCP. No matter what words the person making the complaint uses or how (un)sympathetic she seems. And even if some of the complaints are maybe not so bad in and of themselves (like in the story I linked above), it serves to paint a picture that should be investigated (by the patient advocate/hospital/medical board or whatever) to find out how much of it can be objectively verified, and to decide if any professional action should be taken.

          All of this, by the way, does not conflict with anything Dr. Amy wrote in her post above. I agree that using this kind of inflammatory language is obnoxious and incorrect.

          • Expat

            I agree that just because the account isn’t 100% believable that something bad didn’t happen and that the doc wasn’t unnecessarily unsympathetic. I’m also sure that cases of disrespect of poor or immigrant people are unfortunately as common in medicine as they are in the society at large, but it shouldn’t be mixed into the general issue of abuse during childbirth which has become the cause of the ncb movement. Should the on call doc have the right to get annoyed when a mom refuses an IV and then proceeds to bleed out? Or when she refuses an epidural and proceeds to scream for 3 hours of pushing, later blaming the ob for the pain? Or when she refuses a csection for a macrosomic vbac baby and acts smug when the baby makes it out alive? (I got that one from the comments). It troubled me that 98% of the comments were in support of the plaintiff’s claims that the treatment by the doc was horrific or “someone should’ve called the police”. To me it sounded like, gee, prolonged pushing with a badly positioned baby, no epidural and a bad tear. That must’ve sucked, and the doc sounded like an unsympathetic jerk, but what he did was not malpractice or abuse (except for the stitching without decent numbing, but maybe it was a tough spot to numb up, who knows?). The on call doc was also dealing with another patient who needed an abortion, so he was likely dealing with a bad case where the baby wouldn’t survive past birth and when one deals with sad cases, feeling sympathetic for less tragic situations might become difficult. (If that part of the story was true). I got the sense that part of the plaintiff’s complaint was the horror of being delivered by someone who performed abortions. That’s rough if that is how the dice fall and that is how one feels about such things, but it is in no way the doc’s fault. He did ‘t want to be called in any more than she wanted him to do the job.

          • Expat

            Insert the words “doesn’t mean that” into the first sentence, and then it makes sense. Is there a name (aside from stupid) for frequently saying/writing the opposite of what one means? Some sort of logical dyslexia? I couldn’t sense the difference between right and left until I was 13.

      • OBNurse

        As a nurse, I can tell you that I have stood idly by while the physician acted like a jerk towards a patient, because I myself have been bullied by the same doctors for years. We have a few of them on staff. We have complained, written formal complaints, to our managers, the chief of staff, you name it. I was once yelled at so badly for phoning the physician on call, when he just didn’t want to come in to deliver a baby at 3am, that I was shaking in my seat, as he was lunging over the desk with eyes bulging, finger in my face, accusing me of being a racist, because I didn’t call the white doctor. When I complained and had a meeting with the chief of obstetrics, I was told that this person had never had a complaint against him, and that I must have done something to set him off. It was all about blaming the victim and protecting the old boys club. I later found out that human resources has a file as thick as a phone book, full of complaints about this particular doctor. He then proceeded to stalk me for months at work, and eventually moved on to another victim. I have seen many patients treated badly by physicians, despite the fact that we, the nurses, try to protect them. For example one our anesthesiologists usually leaves patients in tears after seeing them, he is a horrible excuse for a human being, so I usually warn the patients. I say to them, he’s an a**hole, don’t take it personally. Just be quiet and hold still. He’ll probably tell you that you are too fat for an epidural or yell at you for moving/moaning during a contraction. At least if they are prepared they can minimize the amount of time that we have to put up with him. The patient wants the epidural, he is the only one who can provide it, so we are at his mercy and he knows it. I have seen more than my share of incompetent physicians ( and nurses too, to be fair) and have tried to protect them over the years, but as a lowly peon nurse, I really truly don’t have any power. If a doctor wants to give an epis, or slap on a vacuum when it isn’t indicated, or manually remove a placenta, without anesthesia, I have very little say in the matter. I may have over a decade of L&D experience but I am not an MD. So, back to this woman’s story. It might all be true and it might not be. But the part about the nurses and resident sitting by and not saying anything, well, I can believe that. I’ve been that nurse in the room and I’ve consoled and debriefed with the residents afterwards. Confronting the jerks usually only escalates the problem,( nor will we be supported in the aftermath by management), their behaviour does not change, the are never disciplined, and so it becomes a matter of picking your battles and saving your own skin in your place of employment. Thank goodness we have terrific physicians and OB’s who are great to work with a treat patients with respect, and thank goodness the bad experiences are far and few between. But they do happen.

        • Lioness

          Why I chose not to be a nurse. My limited exposure showed it to be one of the most disempowering fields around. Probably because it is so predominantly female. My advise to you is to get yourself another career and when you know your leaving, file complaints with the Department of Health.

          • Lioness

            Addendum: There are far too many institutions in which a nurse has to choose between being ethical and keeping her job, she can’t do both.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How would you know? Wait, wait, don’t tell me: you are gullible enough to believe whatever crap other lay homebirth advocates fabricate.

    • Expat

      She also complained that the doc wouldn’t turn the ECM trace so that she could see it (I assume he was looking at it) and she was sure that because the resident had measured 8 cm, that she didn’t need to be pushing as the doctor was directing. She is so sure that she knows better and websites like the unneccesarian just reinforce those erroneous beliefs. A jerk and malpractice and assault and rape should not be conflated.

    • Lisa the Raptor

      How about “violated”? That’s a nice moody word that fits.

      • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

        I’m sure glad that you’re around to pick the correct word for other women to use to describe their feelings about their own lives.

        • Lisa the Raptor

          Sure , fine, be “birth sauteed” if you want to, no matter how little it make engrish language work pretty. Meaning cupcake.

          • S

            Wow. I’m not picking a side, but way to indiscriminately punch other people in the face to make your point.

    • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

      You can’t get ANYTHING done about it. Believe me, I tried. No one cares about medical battery unless you are rich and know an attorney who is willing to spend time on battery only. The medical boards typically don’t care, even though its a major ethics violation.

      When you are a pregnant woman you are treated like a baby vessel instead of a human being.

  • nohika

    This is really a semantics issue, and rather off-topic, but I do take issue with your definition of rape as cited in this article. It perpetuates the stereotype, for example, that men can’t be raped, and leaves out those that don’t identify among the gender binary. I know it’s not relevant to the discussion at hand, but. Using ‘person’ just tends to be much more inclusive.

    • http://drakonofthemists.tumblr.com/ Dyke by choice

      It is well known that rape is often male violence against women. “Gender binary” means nothing. It is females that are targeted class. This not something that should be downplayed and erased.

      • nohika

        Yeah, that’s true. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t men raped by women, or men raped by other men. Defining “the definition of rape” as women being victims continues to make it difficult for male victims of rape or domestic violence to step forward because socially they should not exist. That shouldn’t be erased, either.

  • PJ

    I’m not sure the issues are so cut and dried. Using legal definitions of rape to define it as an act is problematic. Spousal rape was not a crime in most developed countries until quite recently, and continues not to be outlawed in many countries. Clearly a husband can rape a wife. Likewise, I can think of at least one country where legally women cannot rape men; I bet similar legislation exists elsewhere too. The law does not necessarily keep up with, or define, what we consider to be rape.

    • Sue

      There is a big difference between actions done in the practice of health care, vs those done purely in a sexual context, no?

      • PJ

        Yes, there absolutely is. I agree that many (or maybe even most) of those exclaiming about birth rape are doing so erroneously, offensively (both to rape victims and to medical practitioners) and with an utter misunderstanding of the nature of consent during the course of medical treatment. I still can’t agree with Dr Amy’s assessment of the subject here.

        What counts as a “sexual context” in terms of rape is pretty problematic too. One of the other things that bothered me about this piece was what seems to be an implicit belief that rape is inherently sexual in nature, but that is far from being a given.

      • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

        Rape isn’t about sex. Its about control and violence. So is forcing instruments inside people who make it clear that they do not want them there.

    • Lisa the Raptor

      Still requires mens rea, and a sexual act, no matter who does it.

  • Jen

    I am curious. I have never read any accounts or Doctors or hospitals doing anything that could remotely qualify as rape. I have read many stories from women giving birth at home that claim to have felt that way about their homebirth midwives. Stories about being held down by the midwife and doula while the midwife stripped the woman’s membranes without telling her and telling her to shut up when she screamed for her to stop in pain. I wonder about intent in this circumstance because so many homebirth midwives do homebirth because they get some sort of weird enjoyment out of the birth process. Especially with people like Inna May Gaskin thinking it’s ok to push a woman’s “button” during birth. Would these types of situations qualify as birth rape?

    • anion

      Having somebody massage my “button” during labor, without permission, sounds a heck of a lot more like rape to me than a doctor or nurse checking my cervix for dilation.

      I never really minded my doctor’s fingers up there, because that’s where they were supposed to be. They were NOT supposed to be tiddling with my “button” for any reason. Geez, there’s always a female nurse in the room at my gyn appointments specifically to prevent that sort of thing.

      • anion

        Eep, I just realized I made it sound like the female in the room is the only thing that keeps my doctor from interfering with me. I meant, they’re there to A) observe in case of some sort of accusation, and B) to make patients feel safer.

        My OB was a wonderful man. He never would have considered doing such a thing! (Sorry, Dr. Bob!)

      • Jen

        Yeah, that was kind of what I was referring to in my comment. Hospital staff are trained to get consent and are there because they care about patients. Homebirth midwives are obsessed with birth and female body parts and have no training on gaining consent. To me this makes it seem likely that birth rape could be very real. It just doesn’t happen in the hospital, it happens in the homebirth setting with midwives that are actually fetishists.

        • anion

          Oh, I know; I was agreeing with you. :-)

        • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

          Hospital staff are trained to get consent but there is very little chance that anything will happen to them if they don’t. I’ve seen some really horrifying stuff before in a non l&d setting, like a physician trying 5+ times to place an art line in a patient who had no idea what the doctor was doing. This sort of thing is absolutely routine in health care, patients do not know they have the right to refuse treatment. If they do and their right is violated then they find a pretty horrible reality waiting for them when they try to get justice for it. No one cares. Really.

    • Lisa the Raptor

      Nope that’s simply sexual assault or rape. The location and other things going on at the time do not get to play a part in the act. We don’t have “House murder” and “hotel murder”.

      • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

        Yeah its not like there is ‘domestic violence’ or ‘intimate partner violence’ or ‘corrective rape’ or ‘hate crimes’ or anything. whoops! actually there is, because context matters.

        • Lisa the Raptor

          Huh?

    • guest

      Yes, unfortunately. I recently discovered that my reproductive endocrinologist pled guilty to over a dozen counts of felony sexual assault for telling women that his extensive sexual fondling after procedures was a treatment used to increase pregnancy rates. To my horror, the medical board just put him on probation, and now he’s practicing under his middle name with very few restrictions and no required disclosure to patients. (I was unharmed, as far as I know. But I was unconscious for part of my treatment, so there will always be a little question in my mind.)

      Evil people do go into medicine. But there’s a difference between this man and a doctor who has a legitimate medical purpose but has not obtained appropriate consent. To pretend that the second is the same as the first is absurd.

      You can imagine that the Ina May Gaskin quotes about clitoral massage really, really, REALLY disturbed me.

    • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

      there are predators in every profession. Do you really think that people who wanted to violate women repeatedly would avoid becoming doctors or something? It gives them a very easy way to go about doing these things.It gives them credibility over their victims.

      And yeah, it happened to me. Had a pressure catheter shoved up inside me and when I said “what is that????” she just kept going. I’ve become furious after reading the risks of that procedure and the ACOG recommendations about the use of the catheters. She knew I didn’t want that there and that permission to touch/do anything to my body was very important to me, and she did that anyway. It was horrifying because I was a birth center transfer and she was the OB on call and I had no one else to turn to, and I was afraid of her after that. What else was she willing to do to me without asking? Why didn’t my words mean anything to her?

      • Susan

        I just checked on the site and read your posts. I think it should be clear that I know I know there are going to be predators in our profession and every profession. I have been a victim on a predator ( not health care related ) myself and I know the pain of not being believed. It’s more than pouring salt on the wound. I find most of the posters here to be very aware of patient’s rights issues. I know that I am always willing, no matter how uncomfortable, to speak up if I feel a patient’s rights are being violated or they are being treating disrespectfully. I still agree with Dr. Amy that the term Birthrape is used inappropriately. At least where I have worked, doctors and nurses would stop if a patient did not consent to something. What you describe is a little more tricky, as it sounds like she was midway through putting in the IUPC when you asked that. It certainly would have been smarter, indeed what EVERY patient deserves, for her to explain it first especially since you were a birth center transfer and were likely to feel distrust of “interventions”. So with just those facts it sounds disrespectful, and wrong, on the doctor’s part. An IUPC isn’t an emergency procedure but it certainly can be helpful in giving a safe dose of pitocin or deciding if augmentation will help or not. You deserved an explanation first and an opportunity to consent, or not. I am so sorry that happened to you.

  • Kerlyssa

    Makes me wonder what they think of checking rectal tone after a suspected spinal injury.

    • Gene

      I do rectal exams regularly in the ED. It is just another part of the body to me. But I’ve seen quite a few (always) men pitch an almighty fit when they learn a rectal exam is part of the work up. One man (I was not involved in his care) unsuccessfully sued a hospital for a rectal exam after a trauma. I also once had a relative make an aside comment about being assaulted after a toddler had a rectal temp. I read him the riot act. Most rectal exam craziness is associated with homophobia (IME).

  • auntbea

    I don’t know. I think if people are describing how they feel, “birth rape” is not necessarily ludicrous. People use “rape” metaphorically to mean a violation, sexual or not with some frequency (e.g. raping the earth. emotional rape.) And perhaps some women DO feel sufficiently violated and traumatized by something that happened during a birth that their experience is on par with legal rape. And, in rape cases, the victim’s feelings certainly DO count: if she feels okay with it, it’s not rape.

    Accusing someone of committing rape, on the other, does raise some questions of the meaning, since rape is a seriously criminal charge that has a limited definition for a reason. Stating that someone raped you — as opposed to saying you feel raped — does call for being more careful with words.

    • thepragmatist

      Ah, but a victims feelings as to whether or not something is rape don’t matter a whit either, in the case of sexual assault being identified as a crime or as “rape” under the law (and the law is specific). No, the only thing that matters is whether there is clear evidence– of the physical kind– that a rape occurred. Right or wrong, this is my experience of trying to prosecute a sexual abuser. And as for being raped, and I was raped, there is NO WAY for me to have my experience legitimized as a crime because there is no evidence. My feelings absolutely DO NOT MATTER A WHIT in the eyes of the law, and the best I can hope for is to get those who caused me harm in a civil court. There is a reason such a small number of rapes ever are prosecuted: rape is a private crime so there is often no evidence other than the victims “feelings” and because we do not accept a victims word at face value (a rapist is given the benefit of the doubt, not the victim, ever– the victim is run through the ringer), it is rare that rape is ever, ever prosecute. The worry always is that a bunch of women would run ripshod, crying rape left and right, when really I believe it’s a throwback to a time when a woman’s word was worth far less than a man’s. I am involved in a case with multiple victims and it reminds me of how, under components of Sharia law, there needs to be four female witnesses for every one male witness. Well, in this case there were a number of female victims with exactly the same story, but the criminal was not prosecuted. Indeed, it was even found that a crime was indeed committed, but could not be prosecuted. I have a friend who was date-raped by drugging, and it took (hold your breath!) 26 f-ing victims before that man was finally convicted of rape. So 26 women “feeling” raped before someone would stop him.

      I see parallels in medicine. In fact, one of my abusers was a medical provider. But I’ve also been victim of medical malpractice by someone well known in the community to be unethical and to act far outside scope of practice. This person managed to make a career of it, and although well known to attorneys and to various women organizations and physicians, it went on and on, because how many women must have “feelings” of medical malpractice before it actually stops. I don’t even have an answer, but I can say it felt a lot like rape. I won’t call it rape though. It’s just medical malpractice: unethical, violating, humiliating… not rape.

      But TBH after that experience, I said to my beloved doctor, who was probably more irate than me (because I already knew it was happening so I was just relieved there was PROOF finally) that I finally realized how a woman could come away from a hospital setting *feeling* raped. It still doesn’t matter, since rape didn’t occur. Hell, it would be hard to prove medmal occurred. Again, a civil court is probably the best place to get any sort of recompense, as depressing as that is.

      But there is an issue here. The law and medicine both can be very cold, absolute places where there is no room for feeling, yet some crimes are mostly crimes of feeling. A dead person with a knife through their chest is very much dead with a knife through the chest. But a woman who has been assaulted during labour by an uncaring, discompassionate doctor who insults her, calls her names, and then goes against informed consent… that’s a crime of “feeling”. There’s no real physical proof anything happened there. That doctor can walk away and people will say he or she had a bad bedside manner, colleagues may excuse that doctor for having a bad day, but the patient my deal with the emotional fall-out, much the same way as a rape, for years, developing PTSD, fear of physicians and hospitals, etc. There is no recourse, it appears, for women who experience this specific kind of trauma, and there is generally no or little recourse for a woman who was raped to find justice. The harm done is often emotional and not even quantifiable. As a criminal injury lawyer once yelled at me, while pounding his desk, “Tell me how much your hurt feelings are worth! 200 grand! 500 grand! A million dollars!? WHICH? WE NEED TO PROVE REAL HARM!!!” I get it, but it illuminates the issue when we are trying to prove that a rape or medical battery constitutes a “real” injury. I do think this is buried in layers and layers of sexism and power.

      I am not sure this was very eloquent as it is hard for me to put words to this in a clear way so don’t all jump over me. LOL!

      • http://Www.awaitingjuno.blogspot.com/ Mrs. W

        I want to thank you for your words here. The barriers to justice are huge – and it stinks to high heaven. It may not be economic to pursue these cases, but I absolutely believe they should be pursued whenever possible, and that making it more possible needs to be a priority. The damage is immense.

      • auntbea

        I only meant that the law cares about feelings to the extent that the same act — sex — is rape or not rape based on how the woman feels about it. Feeling violated is necessary for a legal case of rape (assuming we are not talking about minors here), but, as you have pointed out, really not sufficient.
        The fact that feeling raped and having been legally raped are not the same thing is why I am willing to give people who claim “birth rape” the benefit of the doubt, that they know something I don’t.

  • Cold Steel

    New commenter here– I’m a resident physician in surgery. Not an obstetrician (except in circumstances most don’t want to contemplate). However, I am finding it extremely difficult to appreciate that this happens with any degree of regularity. I have never, never, never– no matter how high-stakes the situation– done anything on a conscious patient without at least giving them a verbal heads-up. I’ve never seen anyone do anything on a conscious patient [non-belligerent, non-intoxicated] without explaining it beforehand. And in ob/gyn, where this need is magnified times a thousand, I find it nearly unfathomable that strangers are rushing in performing vaginal exams or operative vaginal deliveries or whatnot without introduction, explanation, and consent.

    I guess I’m extremely skeptical of these patient accounts. Can any of the OBs or CNMs around here comment?

    • theadequatemother

      I don’t know either…not an OB or RM but I didn’t see it in LDR during my training either outside of true emergencies and even then someone is usually explaining what is happening while it is happening or briefly just before. I started off wondering if maybe there is an altered sensorium that accompanies the pain of labour that means a lot of verbal communication is missed…but we have data from anesthesia where they have looked at patient’s recollections of the information given to them when consenting to epidurals and they really do remember it very very well even when significantly distressed…so that can’t be it.

      I have seen it during burn baths (as per a comment below). We are called to sedate burn patients for baths and I see them being treated objectively quite frequently. Same with ICU patients which is difficult as most of our nurses were socialized to provide ICU care during the era of much deeper sedation…now with daily wake ups and lower overall sedation doses we aren’t being nearly as mindful as we should be a