Lactation consultant poses deadly risk to babies because she lies about her vaccination status

ethical and unethical words in wood type

Imagine doing everything in your power to protect your vulnerable newborn, then having your baby die by contracting pertussis from your lactation consult or postpartum doula.

Some mothers can imagine it and they are acting to prevent it. Lactation consultants and doulas are feeling it where it matters most: in their wallet. And, as a result, some have taken to lying to their clients.

From Mothering.com:

… I am a postpartum doula and just lost a client after her dr. told her it was imperative that everyone who comes into contact with her babies be up to date with the flu shot and the TDaP. I told her that I don’t vax (I actually have had some very adverse reactions to vaccines in my past) and that was a deal breaker. I’m just feeling disheartened that the pharmaceutical companies and the medical establishment have successfully convinced so many people that this is necessary…

Yup, there’s that massive world wide conspiracy involving tens of millions of people, including nearly every doctor in the known world, plus Big Pharma, plus the governments of nearly all countries. You’d have to be a gullible fool to believe something so ridiculous, but apparently many lactation consults and postpartum doulas are gullible fools.

That’s not the truly shocking part, though. This response from another lactation consultant is downright horrifying:

I’m a post partum doula and lactation consultant. I work for an agency. I’ve never had a flu shot that I can remember, never gotten a TDaP booster, not had Hep vax or anything…

I’m rarely asked, but I say “I’m up to date with all necessary vaccinations.” I don’t think TDaP, Flu or Hep are necessary vaccines, but I keep THAT PART to myself(emphasis in the original)

… Most clients never ask me, so I’m wondering if this was just a mom who had been brainwashed by her doctor. My advice is to never bring it up on your own and smile and offer that you’ve had “necessary vaccines” if asked, then change the subject. You are NOT going to give someone diphtheria or pertussis, it’s ridiculous for people to think that’s going to happen.

So let’s see if I get this straight. This lactation consultant/postpartum doula thinks it is okay to LIE to her clients, thereby robbing them of the opportunity to make an informed decision about the care of their own babies. And why is it okay to lie? For no better reason than to preserve her income. Apparently money is more important to this vile human being than whether her clients’ babies live or die.

These women should be ashamed of themselves, but that requires both a modicum of education and a sense of morality. Both appear to be lacking here.

359 Responses to “Lactation consultant poses deadly risk to babies because she lies about her vaccination status”

  1. Cooper Pie
    January 24, 2014 at 10:13 am #

    Okay so the other day my wife had a meltdown about her

    lactation and stuff. And I didn’t really believe her because I thought that she was just exaggerating. Now I feel like a complete a$$hole of a husband.

  2. PrimaryCareDoc
    December 18, 2013 at 12:33 pm #

    Well, she’s at it again. This time she’s claiming that the Polio outbreak is Syria is being caused deliberately by health care workers.

    http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394455/trying-to-get-accurate-info-on-syrian-polio-outbreak#post_17529057

    “I don’t know how accurate the reports are, that much paralysis sounds really high! It takes months or a year for the original symptoms and inflammation of Polio to calm and at least a year to know if a child will be paralyzed. (My dad had Polio in the 1940s, absolutely no paralysis, no iron lung, no lasting effects, but was in bed for around 6 months so our family is quite familiar with it.) Of course in the majority of cases, Polio presents as a really bad upper respiratory infection (it’s how my dad’s and everybody elses in the 1930s and 40s started) andnever goes beyond a respiratory infection so MANY cases go undiagnosed.

    Also, these camps are not clean, people are packed in together and human waste is flowing through the streets, AND SO they use Oral Polio Vaccine which is ALIVE and is excreted in the stool for up to 6 months after vaccination! Using LIVE polio vaccine will only INCREASE polio rates in the area because anyone who is exposed to the stool of children who are getting the vaccine are being exposed to LIVE POLIO. Why would they do this? A ploy to “show how dangerous it is not to be vaccinated?” Sounds like the intentional exacerbation of events. Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic.

    Frustrating as heck to use human lives for political gain. The smart thing to do would be to use the INJECTED Polio vaccine, which is a killed vaccine and cannot be transferred in stool or any other bodily fluid and cause more Polio.”

    Yes. You read that correct. She is actually stating that health care workers are deliberately causing polio for political gain.

  3. thankfulmom
    November 24, 2013 at 10:26 pm #

    shotbyshot.org Worth reading, personal stories and photos of babies, children, and adults affected or killed by vaccine preventable diseases.

    • thepragmatist
      November 25, 2013 at 9:03 pm #

      I was most shocked when I learned about a woman who died from tetanus here after pricking her finger while gardening. Then a friend of ours contracted tetanus after being gored by a deer they were trying to remove from their garden. Tetanus is brutal. I’ve actually used tetanus as a way to get people in the door to vaccinate because most people think that it comes from rust and rusty metal. When they find out it’s in the dirt, and of course, babies get exposed to dirt and it’s everywhere, you can really play on that. Most people who don’t vaccinate, don’t vaccinate out of fear, so you need to find something that’s even scarier than the thing they are afraid of. Scary disease in the garden is a good one. Once in the door, it’s more likely they will get other vaccines. You know. Tetanus vaccine, the gateway vaccine and all… Ha.

      • araikwao
        November 26, 2013 at 12:18 am #

        There was a recent case in New Zealand of an unvaccinated kid who got tetanus, and he was seriously ill in the PICU for a while. His folks publically recanted their previous anti-vax stance

    • thepragmatist
      November 25, 2013 at 9:35 pm #

      http://shotbyshot.org/pertussis/a-pertussis-story/
      It really frustrated me that our Health Authority will NOT allow you to get a pertussis vaccine, even though my community is full of people who do not vaccinate. I asked to get mine when my BFF had a baby. Then I asked again when I got pneumonia so bad I needed to be hospitalized (not the first time, nor probably the last). I had one older doctor INSIST that adults cannot contract pertussis. I know that often we make snide comments here about “Google University” but sometimes I feel like the time I’ve spent arguing in defense of things like medicalized childbirth (lol, I said those evil words) and vaccination DOES make me more of an expert than some public health authorities and clearly some doctors. I also feel the same way about some of my health issues and the medications I take. Sometimes I just have to sit quietly and listen to a doctor tell me something I know is patently false even though I know it is false because I have learned I am not to argue. It is so frustrating to me that we can’t put a “cocoon of safety” around newborns here, and when my son was an infant, I wouldn’t let anyone near him with even a slight cough or cold.

      • Young CC Prof
        November 25, 2013 at 10:15 pm #

        They won’t let you have a pertussis vax? That’s awful. What country is that?

        Then again, one of my students recently got pregnant and has an older baby in daycare. I reminded her a few weeks ago to get her flu shot. She said her doctor said she can’t get it because she’s asthmatic, and the last time she had a flu shot she wound up with walking pneumonia. And the baby can’t be vaccinated until one year. (It’s 6 months.)

        I couldn’t quite contain my horror at the first statement, and I tried to explain that walking pneumonia could not possibly be a side effect of the flu shot, it was a coincidence, and she should get vaccinated anyway, as the flu while pregnant would probably put her in the hospital. I hope she went ahead and got her and the baby vaccinated, or at least looked into the matter further and asked a different doctor, maybe one who reads CDC bulletins. Heck, maybe she’d listen to me just because I’m pregnant, also.

        And yes, sometimes a genuinely well informed patient actually really does know more than the doctor about your own situation, especially if you have a chronic issue and you’re faced with a nonspecialist who doesn’t know you. The time I was prescribed cipro for an allergic rash comes to mind vividly. I told him repeatedly it was an allergy, just like allergic reactions I’d had many times before, he insisted I had cellulitis. I finally took the script, left, and tossed it. Didn’t die of blood poisoning, obviously.

        • December 19, 2013 at 11:57 am #

          I am asthmatic and it is for that reason alone that my primary care doctor ensures that I get the flu vaccine every season. The flu can turn into a life threatening illness for me. At least once a year a cold turns into months of coughing that only Tessalon Perles in high doses can start to suppress. The ignorance of these people beggars belief.

  4. Dr Sarah
    November 24, 2013 at 5:48 pm #

    Good grief. I’ve just clicked that this is the same woman with whom I’m currently engaged in a discussion in another thread in which she lambasted someone (fortunately not anyone on the forum itself) for not wanting her children to see a woman nursing. She claimed this woman was dishonest, prudish and disrespectful. I called her on it, and she’s now trying to claim that ‘prude’ isn’t really an insult because the dictionary definition isn’t insulting.

    In the thread you link to, she’s now claiming to have been ‘terribly misunderstood’. What a piece of work.

    • Peter
      December 28, 2013 at 7:10 pm #

      Why would there be a problem for children to see a woman nursing? Haven’t the children been nursed?

  5. jtmo
    November 23, 2013 at 11:33 pm #

    I’m pretty speechless. Lying about your vaccination status is reprehensible, but not understanding the disease your talking about is even worse. Pertussis is all too common, unfortunately, and while it may just cause a prolonged annoying cough in adults, if can be deadly to a newborn. There was a death in the county I practiced in last year in a healthy 6 week old who was too young to be vaccinated.
    I also had a pregnant patient a few years ago who had pertussis while pregnant, and while her life wasn’t in danger, she was so miserable coughing so hard and not sleeping for weeks.
    I’m a very healthy adult who rarely gets so much as a sniffle, but I get my flu shot every year and had my Tdap on time because I owe it to my vulnerable patients to not put their lives at risk.

    • Siri Dennis
      November 24, 2013 at 4:08 am #

      And it works both ways – I visit homes with babies and children, and two years ago I contracted pertussis. I was ill for 3 months, and truly thought I was dying. I dropped 2 dress sizes and looked like a pathetic old scrap of humanity. Whenever I went into shops (after the infectious stage) people would rush to my side with chairs and glasses of water. Had I known immunity wears off, I’d have got a booster. I now tell everyone to get one!

      • Are you nuts
        November 26, 2013 at 11:33 am #

        Don’t tell them you lost two dress sizes – or they’ll be touting the whooping cough diet!

  6. Mac Sherbert
    November 23, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

    “It is astonishing that, though this discovery is undoubtedly on the very greatest blessings to poor humanity, it should now be thought so little of, and that there should be some who actually decry and refuse to accept it as such, when there is no doubt that if every on had followed the instruction as to revaccination, by this time smallpox would have ceased altogether.

    No language can be too strong to depict the horrors of this disease, or to denounce the culpable ignorance of those who, blinding themselves to the blessings of vaccinations, set the law at defiance and thus endanger the lives of their fellow creatures.”

    —New American Encyclopedia of Social and Commercial Information (1908) on the small pox vaccination.

  7. prolifefeminist
    November 23, 2013 at 7:01 pm #

    This REALLY pisses me off. Lying to your clients about your vaccination status?? WTF who does that and thinks it’s okay.

    My ex-preemie had (and still has) a congenital airway defect. Especially in the early months of his life when he was most vulnerable, we were absolute nazis about protecting him from germs, because all it would take was a simple cold to land him back in the hospital. Pertussis? He would’ve been back on a vent and likely wouldn’t have made it. How DARE these LCs think it’s okay to potentially expose vulnerable newborns on a regular basis to diseases that can kill them? They’re so in favor of breastfeeding – but do they even care about the babies? Do they give one damn second of thought about the mother’s right to know? Or do they just think they’re the enlightened ones and that gives them the right to lie and decide for everyone else.

    This is absolutely disgusting. Disgusting.

  8. New Mom Guest
    November 23, 2013 at 6:00 pm #

    OT: Reassure me, please!
    I’m on a message board for dealing with tongue tie, and it’s mostly been helpful, but it’s also full of woo, and even though I think they’re nuts, they’re scaring the crap out of my non-rational new mother side.

    They keep talking about “midline defects” (tongue-tie, lip tie, sacral dimple, all of which my daughter has, to name a few) being associated with a mutation of the MTHFR gene, and something about it affecting the methlyation cycle, and not being able to clear heavy metals, and vaccine injuries…

    They keep linking to scary sounding articles (not real studies, of course), and claiming that it’s cutting edge science and that’s the only reason pediatrician’s don’t know about it. I am fully aware I don’t have nearly enough knowledge to assess this issue on my own, does anyone here know anything about it?

    (For the record, I still plan to vax on schedule. It’d just love to not be so worried about it…)

    • yentavegan
      November 23, 2013 at 6:57 pm #

      Why not ask your pediatrician directly if s/he is current with mid-line defects and methylanation cycle?
      I’ll go out on a limb here, but your pediatrician is probably current with all real medical studies pertinent to children/infants.

    • Trixie
      November 23, 2013 at 10:44 pm #

      i would say, in general, that you shouldn’t trust people who think they can diagnose strangers’ children with incredibly rare genetic disorders over the interwebz.

    • Siri Dennis
      November 24, 2013 at 4:11 am #

      Anything about clearing heavy metals screams WOOOOOOOOO to me! I would ask an expert, and then put it behind you. Then vaccinate. Which you’re planning to do anyway. Good luck! New motherhood is pretty daunting..

    • araikwao
      November 24, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

      Disclaimer: I don’t have all the answers you are looking for, nor do I claim to.

      Captain Obvious, an OB and regular around here, recently posted a link to the contemporaryobgyn website, on what OB’s need to know about advances in research on the cause of autism. Interestingly, this gene was mentioned as an association with autism when folate supplementation is inadequate. I wonder if this concept has mutated amongst the woo crowd to being a cause of “inadequate heavy metals clearance” and “vaccine injuries” because they believe those (implausible) things cause autism?

      • New Mom Guest
        November 26, 2013 at 2:03 pm #

        Yes! The claim that I keep reading is that the gene mutation makes it difficult for the body to absorb folic acid (they recommend “live” supplementation of folate instead), which causes the midline defects. They say the same mutation also affects the methylanation cycle, causing heavy metals/”toxins” to build up. (Yes, I know how woo that sounds. I repeat, it’s not my rational mind that’s concerned!!)

        I’m going to ask my pediatrician about it at the next visit, but I’d love to read the link you’re talking about in the meantime, if someone could repost it for me. Googling is not doing the trick…

        • araikwao
          November 26, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

          Ahem. Methylation cycle. Anyhow, the website is contemporaryobgyn.com

          • araikwao
            November 26, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

            ..hopefully you can see the link from that page πŸ™‚

          • New Mom Guest
            November 26, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

            Oy, yah, that. The website’s not coming up for me, but thank you.

          • araikwao
            November 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm #

            Sorry,that’s cos.I got the link wrong, it’s contemporaryobgyn.modernmedicine.com/autismandtheobstetrician

    • Laural
      November 26, 2013 at 1:07 am #

      I feel your anxiety, New Mom Guest. I’ve been in the world of posterior tongue tie with my new baby and have been trying to navigate the waters of that whole brou-haa in a sensible way. I ended up taking my new baby and one year old to see a pediatric dentist for laser surgery on their lip and tongue ties. My pediatrician definitely thought my one year old needed this done but was less sure about my newborn. My lactation consultant was the one who suggested a posterior tongue tie and referred me to an ENT. The ENT I saw said posterior tongue ties do not exist and that my baby had a neurological issue with her suck-swallow. I was in such a tizzy- posterior tongue ties seem to go along with cranio sacral therapy and all kinds of things I don’t exactly trust. After much angst I traveled far and had the laser surgery on my babies after they were evaluated by the dentist. My baby nursed right after the procedure and has not had a bottle since. I am still kind of holding my breath but it has been two weeks since my baby had this done and she seems to be doing great with nursing. I was exclusively pumping since she was two weeks old and had not reached her birth weight and my milk had almost gone completely as she was not able to get anything; from me or even any wide based bottle nipple. While things were going well enough with that pump and bottle feed thing, she was thriving, it was exhausting for me to maintain, and I was soooo sad about not being able to nurse my sweet baby. I nursed my other 4 babies. Things are not perfect with her suckle but it is vastly improved and I think she seems like she is getting enough to eat. She sure has a lot more tongue mobility!
      For what it is worth I do think there is a genetic component to the lip and tongue tie. My kids all have a degree of it, but only the youngest two are affected enough in a mechanical way to actually want to do something about it. Anyway, all that crap about it being associated with vaccine injury and clearing mercury is a load of carp. Total BS. So, worry about something else. ; )

      • New Mom Guest
        November 26, 2013 at 1:56 pm #

        Thanks for the reassurance! I know you’re right, but hearing it over and over manages to scare me regardless.

        I had my daughter’s posterior tongue tie and lip tie revised by laser when she was 4 weeks old. I’m aware that posterior tongue ties are controversial, and I was also turned off by all the talk in those circles of cranial sacral therapy, etc. But it was either going to help our issues or I would have stopped nursing due to pain, and both my sisters had tongue ties revised in childhood for speech issues, so I figured it was worth a shot. My daughter had about a 4 day nursing strike right after, but then she latched on beautifully and we’ve nursed pain free ever since. I can’t rule out that I was just finally “used to” nursing, but I suspect the revision was what changed things, and I don’t regret having it done.

        That said, I’m leaving that “support” group. We’ve got our latch sorted now, and the woo is driving me crazy. Good luck w/everything!

    • Rachel Snyder
      November 30, 2017 at 4:49 pm #

      yes they are correct, I have the MTHFR gene mutation.

  9. New Mom Guest
    November 23, 2013 at 5:52 pm #

    I’m currently trying to keep my slightly congested 2 month old comfortable, and it’s heartbreaking. This post is horrifying! I was vigilant in making sure my whole extended family got TDaP before she was born, but it didn’t even cross my mind to question the 3 LCs we saw about their vax status. They work with newborns every day, FFS!

  10. theadequatemother
    November 23, 2013 at 5:16 pm #

    http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/23/calgary-mom-arrested-after-son-7-dies

    The woo kills another innocent. A horrible needless death. Of course, now I see the post below (edit)

  11. fearlessformulafeeder
    November 23, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    This post made me nauseous. Wow. Scary as hell. πŸ™

  12. CDN Guest
    November 22, 2013 at 9:28 pm #

    OT: (sorta). This is the kind of horrific madness that anti-science/anti-vaccine/alternative health creates: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mother-to-face-criminal-charges-in-son-s-strep-death-1.2436945

    • Lynnie
      November 22, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

      That is just so sad. I can’t imagine letting a child suffer for 10 days with no medical care. Hope they throw the book at the “mother”.

      • mommy v
        November 22, 2013 at 11:47 pm #

        Seriously, if my kids are miserable after two or three days – I’M miserable, too! No way am I going to apply garlic cloves and wave burning sage around my room when the pediatrician can inevitably prescribe something to ease their (my) pain.

      • Teleute
        November 23, 2013 at 1:55 am #

        How about the parents who lost two children to ‘prayer healing’?

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/herbert-catherine-schaible_n_3138001.html

        • Lisa from NY
          November 23, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

          This is a total misunderstanding of the Bible. So sad.

      • CDN Guest
        November 23, 2013 at 10:44 am #

        I completely agree. I was horrified to see this. How you could watch your child deteriorate for 10 days? Death from a common infection, easily treated with the miracle of antibiotics. It is shocking. I am so sad for the child. I’m assuming the mother attachment parented (her worldview suggests so), but she failed spectacularly to meet her child’s unspoken needs (a necessary component for any real attachment to actually happen).

        • Lisa the Raptor
          November 23, 2013 at 10:47 am #

          But at least the kids didn’t did a yeast infection or kill off some good “gut” flora, amirite?

          • Guest # 2538
            November 24, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

            That’s right. Never underestimate the value of a healthy corpse…

    • Lisa the Raptor
      November 23, 2013 at 10:47 am #

      Tragic. I hope some one else gets a wake up call here but likely they’ll just say “Holistic medicine does not work for everything! You should take them to the doctor.” But I thought it was a cure all?

  13. Young CC Prof
    November 22, 2013 at 7:30 pm #

    Brace for more antivaxxer parachutes, Skeptical OB just got posted to the original MOD thread.

    • November 22, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

      Hooboy, this should be interesting.

    • Amy M
      November 22, 2013 at 8:09 pm #

      I think the original one left after she got bombarded with facts.

    • indigo_sky
      November 22, 2013 at 9:11 pm #

      Not very likely. MDC is pretty dead these days. Not many people left there to parachute in, and most of those who are are already familiar with Dr. Amy and won’t bother coming here.

      • Lisa the Raptor
        November 22, 2013 at 9:46 pm #

        That’s sad. What shall we do to fill the hours with woo-full bull cuss?

  14. Lisa the Raptor
    November 22, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

    Well it’s OK to lie because they are so much more educated than these medical professionals. They know that pertussis is never caught by newborns….

    • Young CC Prof
      November 22, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

      That is kind of how it comes across. Parents of newborns who care about herd immunity are paranoid superstitious sheeple who invent things to worry about. Anti-vaxxers are properly informed, so it’s OK for them to lie to placate the idiots.

      • Lisa the Raptor
        November 22, 2013 at 9:50 pm #

        Just youtube :”baby with whooping cough” and sit back. It’s horrible, horrible horrible and the idea that anyone thinks that is a harmless childhood illness is beyond me. One anti vaxer told me once that whooping cough just sounds bad, but the kids are really OK, it’s just like laryngitis. I said, “YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT CROUP, YOU MORON! YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW WHICH ILLNESS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!” (And even croup can cause serious problems)

        • MichelleJo
          November 23, 2013 at 6:41 pm #

          Years ago, before there was a whooping cough vax, two of my siblings had whooping cough when my mom gave birth. Her GP wouldn’t let those two kids come home for *six weeks*, even though they had stopped coughing before that. He said that whooping cough for a newborn is a killer and was taking absolutely no risks.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 23, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

            My great-grandmother’s firstborn died of whooping cough. The next child died of pneumonia. These weren’t even newborns, they were several months old! They moved halfway around the world to escape the memories, and the shadow of those lost children lay over the family as long as she lived.

            I’ve gotten ZERO crap from my family about getting their boosters.

          • Lisa the Raptor
            November 24, 2013 at 5:14 pm #

            So sad πŸ™

          • Trixie
            November 23, 2013 at 10:49 pm #

            My dad nearly died of the mumps as a 2 year old, while my uncle was a newborn. His mom couldn’t visit him in the hospital the whole time he was there, for fear of transmitting it back to the baby. It’s his first memory.

          • Siri Dennis
            November 24, 2013 at 4:20 am #

            My grandmother home tutored kids who couldn’t go to school, and many had suffered brain damage in pertussis epidemics. Others were polio victims. She also had friends who lost pregnancies due to rubella, and others whose babies were born damaged by congenital rubella. My grandmother, born in 1909, thought vaccines rocked! Like, totally. Her sister was ill with diphtheria for months and nearly died.

        • Mac Sherbert
          November 23, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

          I need to find this old book I have from the early 1900’s that describes whooping cough. After reading it I was ready to give my baby the vaccine 3 or 4 times!

    • amazonmom
      November 22, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

      Yeah, they know babies never die of pertussis. That’s just a lie perpetuated by us eebil medical professionals. We LOVE to play the dead baby card.

  15. Amy Tuteur, MD
    November 22, 2013 at 6:37 pm #

    MaggieLC, the liar, continues to rationalize her lying. Her latest comment includes this:

    “Do people ask the Valet who parks their car at the doctor’s office if he’s had “his shots?” How about the woman at the supermarket who handles your food? The cook at a restaurant who really handles and cooks your food? Your La Leche League Leader? (good luck with that one) Your Pastor? Your baby sitter? Your inlaws? The nurse at the Ped’s office? What about the plumber who fixed your shower the week after the baby was born? The UPS guy? Really, it’s getting out of hand, but MOST people aren’t this paranoid and realize that babies have maternal immunities, that human milk is protective and that, yes, going outside or having people in your house may carry a small risk to anyone.”

    • Guestll
      November 22, 2013 at 6:41 pm #

      Nothing she writes absolves anyone from willfully LYING about their immunization status. If I choose to engage a plumber the week after my baby is born, and I ask him if he’s UTD on relevant shots, and he isn’t, it’s MY choice whether or not I employ him, just as it’s HIS choice as to whether he wants to be a decent, ethical human being and answer the question honestly.
      And these idiots bleat on and on about informed choice. Bullshit!

    • Young CC Prof
      November 22, 2013 at 6:42 pm #

      Um, actually I would ask my babysitter and in-laws. And with a baby under 1 month, it’s pretty darned reasonable for the parents to keep him isolated at home and strictly control access to other people.

      Again, respect other people’s parenting choices, even if you think they are dumb.

      • Lindsay Beyerstein
        November 22, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

        I’m, quite rightly, not allowed to hold my new niece and nephew until I get my TDAP booster. And I’m just a recreational baby holder.

        • rh1985
          November 22, 2013 at 9:31 pm #

          Did the recommendation for TDAP recently change? Now it has been suggested to me that family members get it (and they are going to) but when my niece was born a few years ago, the only thing I remember being advised to get was the flu shot.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

            Yes, definitely a recent change. Starting in 2010, there have been nasty baby-killing outbreaks, and the CDC is playing catch-up.

          • rh1985
            November 22, 2013 at 10:05 pm #

            She was born in 2009 so sounds like it was changed right after.

          • Box of Salt
            November 22, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

            The pertussis outbreak which killed 10 California babies occurred in 2010, with the most cases since 1947.

            http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2010-12-15.pdf

      • thepragmatist
        November 25, 2013 at 11:01 pm #

        I despise my ex inlaws attitude to illness. They got me sick multiple times, despite knowing I develop pneumonia easily. They do not wash hands coming into a house or use hand sanitizers and my former MIL thought nothing of coming over sick. The cousin is a homeopath. It’s like they just ask for trouble!

        Meanwhile, I’m the kind of person who put off seeing my friend’s new baby for WEEKS until I was sure I wasn’t sick anymore. While I was in hospital with pneumonia my idiot ex-husband was trying to push my son on another friend with a baby under 3 months old so he could work. I was so sick I was incoherent or I would’ve been enraged.

        ETA: my son had given me that virus, which is why I was so enraged– he was still sick! He needed a chest x-ray a week later because they had been treating him with freaking homeopathy while I was in hospital being pumped full of antibiotics. Needless to say, antibiotics for him as soon as I got my whits about me. Oh, I really hate them and glad I have primary custody of my kid even though I am disabled and it literally is the hardest thing I’ve ever done!

    • Bombshellrisa
      November 22, 2013 at 6:44 pm #

      But we COULD ask and I would hope that these people would be as honest as possible (especially a pastor). It’s another example of a bad doula who just wants to be part of the excitement of birth and play with BAYBEES, not unlike the CPMs who are the same-they want the fun part without any of the work or responsibility.

      • Antigonos CNM
        November 23, 2013 at 1:55 am #

        The funny thing is, IMO, a new mother needs a good cleaning person more than either a lactation or doula-type person. Mom WANTS to take care of her baby — it’s all that housework that gets in the way and is exhausting! And good cleaners are hard to find.

        • rh1985
          November 23, 2013 at 2:02 am #

          Ha, if I won the lottery I’d get a night nanny for a couple of weeks. But mainly because I think the sleep would help me recover a lot better.

          • Siri Dennis
            November 24, 2013 at 4:30 am #

            Have you had your baby?

        • Bombshellrisa
          November 23, 2013 at 2:31 am #

          Agreed!! In my area, most of the postpartum doulas who do the lactation consultant stuff also state that they do cooking and light housekeeping too. They sort of act as whatever the mom needs. I would rather pay a house keeper personally. The doulas make quite a bit an hour and you have to pay for four hour blocks of time.

          • Dr Kitty
            November 23, 2013 at 5:57 am #

            My cleaner does my entire 4 bed/2bath house, including doing two loads of laundry, mopping floors, making beds and tidying up in 3hrs.
            What on EARTH could a doula do for 4 hrs if she DIDN’T clean?

          • KarenJJ
            November 23, 2013 at 6:44 am #

            I swear my cleaner kept me from developing PND, in a way that no vaginal birth or breastfeeding ever could.

    • Lisa the Raptor
      November 22, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

      Her doctor has a valet?

      • Lisa the Raptor
        November 22, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

        Perhaps I just assume that most the people around me are vaccinated. But yes, having your vaccines or a medical reason to not vaccinate are a must for getting to play over at our house. (And even with a medical reason I’d prefer they not until my kids have gotten all their shots)

      • Eddie Sparks
        November 22, 2013 at 7:53 pm #

        Yeah, got to admit that was what stood out for me too!

      • Trixie
        November 22, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

        Yeah…what? Also, the UPS man generally doesn’t touch our babies around here. Mostly he just drops of packages outside.

        • amazonmom
          November 22, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

          I remember a FedEx guy that asked me why his van was literally FULL of this one model of crib. He was on special route just to deliver cribs all day, the exact same model and color. It had been backordered for months and apparently all the moms in Seattle just had to have it! For satisfying his curiosity he brought it in the house, up the stairs, and into my baby’s bedroom because I was 7 months preggo at the time. I admit I didn’t ask him about his vax status πŸ˜‰

        • Lisa the Raptor
          November 22, 2013 at 9:40 pm #

          You don’t hug and lick your UPS guy? Maybe we do it different in the south πŸ˜‰

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 10:28 pm #

            Only once a year, when he officially announces the first day of spring, by breaking out the shorts.

      • Karen in SC
        November 22, 2013 at 8:02 pm #

        If your doctor’s office is in a hospital wing, you could use the valet. I could do that for my doctor’s appointments but thankfully, I am able to walk and am not encumbered with a baby anymore.

        • KarenJJ
          November 22, 2013 at 8:35 pm #

          Your hospital has a valet?

          • C T
            November 22, 2013 at 8:37 pm #

            Ours in Colorado does. My husband and I kind of laughed at it…until we ended up arriving there two years ago with me in such hard labor that I couldn’t stand up straight.

          • KarenJJ
            November 22, 2013 at 8:47 pm #

            Would have been awesome in labour – I was doubled over and leaking amniotic fluid all over the car park.

            Or even two weeks ago when I carried my bleeding 4yo across the car park to emergency.

          • Susan
            November 22, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

            I’ve worked at/visited quite a few hospitals with valet parking… not all that big or in big cities. Agree that it’s a welcome help!

          • Lisa the Raptor
            November 22, 2013 at 9:38 pm #

            Me too! With my second I barely made it through the parking lot because every step caused pain, only to get inside and find the elevator out of order and I had to take the steps. Glad it was only two stories! I thought “Son of a cuss, seriously?!?”

          • Karen in SC
            November 22, 2013 at 8:43 pm #

            Yes, the hospital has valet parking. Probably very helpful to the elderly and very ill people – it’s impossible to get a close spot , even handicapped spaces.

          • FormerPhysicist
            November 22, 2013 at 9:27 pm #

            Ours does too. Very tight crowded sunken parking garage with no elevator. The valet is wonderful. I used the valet service when I was pregnant, and most times I bring my kids in to the ER. I think the valet stops at 9 pm. But there are usually close spaces on the ground-level top deck at that time of day. And one person to get your keys and tell you where your car is if you come out after the valet “closes”.

          • Bombshellrisa
            November 22, 2013 at 8:57 pm #

            Yes-it’s been helpful when it’s time to pick up one of my parents after they are discharged. The doctors office has one too and believe me, it was the best thing in the world for me with a newborn and a mother in rehab after a CVA. They have wheelchairs for use right there-no need to go find one. Also a godsend when my mom would have to go in for check ups after each joint replacement (because I couldn’t ever get her an appointment early enough to score one of the six disabled spots)

          • Lisa the Raptor
            November 22, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

            My hospital didn’t have valet but it did have pregnant and new mom parking next to the handicapped spots, which was delightful!

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 10:27 pm #

            Well heck, even my grocery store has that!

          • Lisa the Raptor
            November 23, 2013 at 9:40 am #

            Were do you people live?!

          • Nashira
            November 23, 2013 at 11:01 am #

            The only issue there is if those pregnant/new mom spots were in lieu of disabled spots. But – perhaps a hospital is not dumb enough to do that. A local grocery store did; needless to say, those spots were converted back pretty damn quick because hey, us crippled folks needed the damn things…

          • Lisa the Raptor
            November 23, 2013 at 11:46 am #

            Um oops! Yeah that’s a big booboo. No, these were as well as handicapped spots.

        • amazonmom
          November 22, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

          After reading all of these replies about valet services I am going to suggest to the hospital admins that we do this. We already have patient only parking areas so there would be space…

          • Bombshellrisa
            November 23, 2013 at 12:13 pm #

            Maybe you can tell them it’s more “baby friendly” since they are all about that (tell them Valley Medical and Swedish Issaquah have valets. Swedish Issaquah is unfortunately woo central, and I think they are trying to out baby friendly every other facility on the Eastside)

          • amazonmom
            November 23, 2013 at 1:17 pm #

            I think I will tell management that. It would be awesome to reduce traffic congestion in our pickup circle near the Maternity entrance.

      • LibrarianSarah
        November 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

        I wish my doctor had a valet. I went to the doctor today for a check up and the parking lot was packed. I had to park at a nearby knitting store and spent the whole appointment afraid I was going to be towed. I also got my flu shot. Suck it anti-vaxers.

        • Elizabeth A
          November 22, 2013 at 10:13 pm #

          But at least you have a really convenient doctor, right near the knitting store? (I would totally be buying myself post-flu shot reward yarn.)

          • Antigonos CNM
            November 23, 2013 at 1:51 am #

            I was just thinking that, in a similar situation, I doubt I’d have shown up at the doctors’ on time. DIY, hardware, and craft stores are places I must never allow myself to be anywhere near [and before my Kindle, book stores].

          • LibrarianSarah
            November 25, 2013 at 4:56 am #

            Tell me about it. My doctor visit cost my $75. $25 for the co-pay and $50 on yarn. I might be reembursed on the co-pay though.

    • Ainsley Nicholson
      November 22, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

      Maybe she doesn’t realize that outside of her anti-vax bubble, most people actually are fully vaccinated. And that those of us that vaccinate our children are not simply “sheeple” going along with whatever we are told to do…we actually WANT to protect our children from life-threatening preventable diseases.

      • Young CC Prof
        November 22, 2013 at 7:27 pm #

        Also very weird ideas about how the actual medical profession works. Yes, lady, your employer actually can demand proof of immunity to various contagious diseases. They can also demand proof of TB status, and other communicable diseases as appropriate. Heck, public school teachers need TB tests.

        • violinwidow
          November 22, 2013 at 10:23 pm #

          Health care providers are required to get a PPD to verify absence of TB. It’s not optional. Don’t want a PPD? Find another career. Don’t wanna protect your clients? Find another career.

          • FormerPhysicist
            November 25, 2013 at 8:42 am #

            What if you’ve have.had latent TB, but also the 6 month course of treatment? Can you be a health care provider?

          • Dr Kitty
            November 25, 2013 at 9:25 am #

            Yes.
            The whole point of the treatment is to prevent reactivation, which only happens in a minority of cases of latent TB (5-10%).

            Latent TB is not infective, unless it re-activates to become TB.

            In theory there is no reason someone with truly latent TB can’t work during their treatment, and certainly no reason to prevent them working after completion of it.

          • FormerPhysicist
            November 25, 2013 at 10:11 am #

            Thanks. Curious. Many of my friends Chinese-born adoptive children test positive for TB.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 25, 2013 at 10:39 am #

            Actually, testing positive is not the same as latent TB. Latent TB means you aren’t sick, but you harbor the bacteria in little lesions in your lungs that are currently walled off by the immune system. Especially with naturally-occurring latency, if your immune system gets depressed, the bacteria can come out and make you sick and infect others.

            Testing positive means you either have it, had it in the past, were vaccinated, or were exposed and developed antibodies without getting infected. Millions of people in the poorer parts of the world fall into the last category, and the easiest way to distinguish them is to do a chest x-ray and check for TB lesions.

            I use false-positive TB tests as a class example of conditional probability. (That is, a healthy person who tests positive for TB through routine screening is far more likely to be a false positive than a true positive.) An immigrant student told us that she’d had a false positive TB test, just to illustrate my point.

            So the moral is, don’t use the freaking skin test in populations where exposure and vaccination are common. Use the blood test, instead, way fewer false positives. New York City’s department of public health switched to blood tests a few years back.

          • Dr Kitty
            November 25, 2013 at 10:55 am #

            AAH NO!
            LATENT TB is exactly THE SAME as “were exposed and developed antibodies without getting infected.” That is what latent TB IS.

            People with latent TB DO NOT HAVE CXR SIGNS- THEY HAVE NORMAL CHEST XRAYS.

            PEOPLE with CXR abnormalities had previously ACTIVE TB infections which have burnt out by themselves (which actually happens quite a lot), or currently have ACTIVE TB.

            People with positive PPD and abnormal CXRs need the full course of antituberculosis treatment. People with latent TB can get modified regimes.

            http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/general/ltbiandactivetb.htm

          • araikwao
            November 26, 2013 at 12:28 am #

            Ugh sorry. Doing this via the Disqus app and have stuffed it up. Not meaning to downvote, I reserve them for troll-y types.

        • amazonmom
          November 22, 2013 at 10:38 pm #

          I wish my coworkers at the hospital would just get their flu shots and shut the hell up already. They want to make good money taking care of sick people but then whine and cry about flu vax. I’m glad the hospital is making them wear a mask unless they get their damn shot. We can get any form of the vax required, the egg allergic nurses were excited to try out that new vax this year.

          • Siri Dennis
            November 24, 2013 at 4:25 am #

            Can I have mine grown in a lobster?

        • LibrarianSarah
          November 23, 2013 at 9:47 am #

          Private school teachers do as well. Back when I worked at a private boarding school I was required to have my flu shot and tb test every year and meningitis every 5 years.

    • Becky05
      November 22, 2013 at 9:14 pm #

      Apart from the baby sitter and family members, who you certainly could ask, these are very different than a doula or an LC, who would likely be in close physical contact with the mother at least, if not the baby.

    • batmom
      November 22, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

      I insisted that anyone who wanted to hang out with the baby in the first couple of months be up-to-date on their vaccinations. Utah is a bit of a hot spot, and so my sisters, mother, and friends were up-to-date before they saw the baby. If they weren’t they didn’t see him until he’d had his first round of shots.

      I didn’t ask the UPS guy because presumably I wasn’t about to hand him my newborn.

    • rh1985
      November 22, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

      Uhhh, plenty of people actually do ask their babysitter/nanny since they will be in close contact with the baby.

    • S
      November 22, 2013 at 9:49 pm #

      She doesn’t wash her produce after she brings it home? Maybe she just puts her bread rolls straight onto the conveyor belt?

    • areawomanpdx
      November 22, 2013 at 11:38 pm #

      Yes, actually, I told my parents if they weren’t up to date on their vaccinations, they weren’t seeing my baby. And what do you know, when the baby came out, they’d had their boosters.

      • Elizabeth A
        November 23, 2013 at 11:40 am #

        My parents were all kinds of helpful about keeping my preemie daughter out of the line of infections. They cancelled Thanksgiving plans because my dad had the flu. They explained to the family that no one was to go from their house to my house, and walked everyone through making arrangements to visit the baby before visiting them.

        They love us a lot.

    • anh
      November 23, 2013 at 10:13 am #

      my comment got deleted for “namecalling” which maybe is apt, but I don’t think so. I was so horrified by this thread I actually had trouble sleeping.

      She was using every greedy, paternalistic trick in the book. Everything they accuse OBs of.

      Here is my deleted comment

      This is not an issue of
      vaccinating or not. It’s an issue of unethical behavior, Maggie. I’m
      seriously incredibly disturbed by your attitude and behavior. I wish I
      could report you to DONA because you make a bad name for doulas
      everywhere, who are in general amazing people.

      You are not a medical professional. You are not in a position to decide which vaccines are necessary for anyone but yourself.

      When my postpartum doula came she held my baby for hours, helped me
      latch her, touched me, much different than a plumber coming to my house
      fixing my toilet while I stayed in my bedroom. Or my pastor coming to
      pray over me. She was in our intimate space and if she were ill she
      could have gotten us ill.

      So you think the risk of you transmitting pertussis to a newborn in
      minute. Fine. TELL YOUR CLIENT THAT. Do not lie to her. How is this any
      less paternalistic than an OB sneaking pitocin into an IV and laughing
      off a woman’s concern about the risk.

      Let me repeat this. You are robbing a woman of informed consent which
      is so contrary to a doula’s job that I hesitate to even call you a
      doula. You don’t get to laugh off a woman’s concern for her child and
      lie to her. You’re effectively patting her on her pretty little head.

      I hear accusations of OB’s being greedy and money hungry, but here
      you are lying to women in order to get their business. How on earth is
      that ethical. Be honest. You don’t even have to say you don’t get the
      shots, just say you don’t disclose your medical history. It’s a mother’s
      choice whether to hire you or not.

      You are lying. please, please, I beg you to stop. These women deserve
      better support. They deserve transparency and a RIGHT TO INFORMED
      CONSENT

      • Susan
        November 23, 2013 at 10:39 am #

        I was disgusted with it as well. I didn’t post because I expect dissent on the “support only” board to be deleted on Mothering. But the Laura poster’s reaction to being confronted was something to watch. Misunderstood? Taken out of context? Oh please…..
        It was almost as if she was saying ” I know the Truth so my lies don’t matter”

      • Nashira
        November 23, 2013 at 10:58 am #

        That’s not name calling, that’s calling a spade a spade.

      • Bombshellrisa
        November 23, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

        What name calling??
        I am sorry that comment got deleted because it really hit the nail on the head

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      November 24, 2013 at 8:25 am #

      “Valet who parks the car at the doctor’s office”?

      I’ll be generous and just say, “That must be a city thing”

  16. Guesteleh
    November 22, 2013 at 5:38 pm #

    OT, but you can buy this on Etsy.

    • KarenJJ
      November 22, 2013 at 5:41 pm #

      And then you can accessorise it with an amber teething necklace. But not a hat. Never the dreaded hat…

      • Bombshellrisa
        November 22, 2013 at 6:49 pm #

        I am surprised they would want a onesie, it interferes with skin to skin. Besides, nobody will be able to see the writing if you are wearing the baby.

      • Guesteleh
        November 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

        Unless it’s this hat.

        • Ainsley Nicholson
          November 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm #

          oh, that is too funny!

        • Young CC Prof
          November 22, 2013 at 7:28 pm #

          Well, unlike the toddler-sized VBAC shirts, it’s at least designed for children too young to be embarrassed by it, except later in photos.

        • Becky05
          November 22, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

          I actually get a big kick out of these hats.

    • Trixie
      November 22, 2013 at 6:14 pm #

      I wish it also said “intact” and “breastfed” and “cosleeping.”

      • thepragmatist
        November 25, 2013 at 11:10 pm #

        There IS a t-shirt at a store here that says something like, “Breastfed. Intact. Natural Birthed. Peaceful Parented.” It covers the whole gamut of who-the-f*ck-cares.

    • Certified Hamster Midwife
      November 22, 2013 at 6:30 pm #

      https://www.etsy.com/listing/152401147/vbac-stud-shirt ew

      • Bombshellrisa
        November 22, 2013 at 6:48 pm #

        is that for the kid? Or the father of the baby?

        • Certified Hamster Midwife
          November 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

          She has these up to toddler-sized. Once your kid is 24 months, who cares what opening it came out of?

          • Becky05
            November 22, 2013 at 9:11 pm #

            Heh, I recently saw a post on a VBAC board where the mother had a picture of each of her two kids, with one labeled “cesarean” and one labeled “VBAC.”

          • LibrarianSarah
            November 22, 2013 at 9:28 pm #

            That’s bound to lead to a healthy sibling relationship. Attachment parenting at it’s finest.

          • Eddie Sparks
            November 22, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

            I used to have a set of T-shirts labelled “Favourite”, “Second-favourite”, “Least Favourite”, “Up For Adoption” and “The Only Girl So I Suppose I’ll Keep Her”. I randomly mixed them up to keep everyone on their toes.

          • CanDoc
            November 22, 2013 at 10:23 pm #

            @eddiesparks:disqus OMG. Water just spurted out my nose. Love coming here for a laugh. I want that set of shirts for my crowd, including one in husband-sized.

      • Lindsay Beyerstein
        November 22, 2013 at 7:42 pm #

        I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that this t-shirt exists.

        • LibrarianSarah
          November 22, 2013 at 9:27 pm #

          I really hope that whoever buys that shirt has a real close friend/family member who could her (or him I guess) aside and say “hey I know your proud of your vbac but your kid is a toddler now and nobody really gave a shit two years ago when you had him. They sure as hell don’t give a shit now.”

          Also, am I the only one who is kind of weirded out by referring to a toddler as a “stud.” Maybe it’s the autist in me but considering a “stud” is an animal that you pimp out for breeding purposes I am not sure I would want my child put in that light. Is their a pink ” vbac bitch” for girls?

      • rh1985
        November 22, 2013 at 9:32 pm #

        It’s like the AP version of the tacky baby onesie!!

      • Josephine
        November 22, 2013 at 11:01 pm #

        I really, REALLY loathe all the clothing out there sexualizing INFANT BOYS. This is one of the more egregious examples, barf.

        • Bombshellrisa
          November 23, 2013 at 2:33 am #

          I can’t believe it either. Yes, I got a “handsome like daddy” onesie but that is as far as I will go. No way would I want something calling my son “stud”.

        • thepragmatist
          November 25, 2013 at 11:08 pm #

          I wish I had the photograph I took of the SIX onesies I disposed of (couldn’t even donate them) that said totally inappropriate things about boys. Sexism in the patriarchy rolls both ways. Gah. And I also threw away, “Daddy drinks because I cry” because it revolted me on many levels.

    • Bombshellrisa
      November 22, 2013 at 6:30 pm #

      Geez, that would make an even better embarrassing pic for the baby book than the one I already have of my unborn son (the ultrasound tech captured a pic of his hand on his, ahem, package). Who really cares WHERE the baby came out of?

    • araikwao
      November 22, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

      Why would anyone???? (rhetorical)

    • Guesteleh
      November 22, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

      Breastfeeding support healing crystals. Step 1: Dig up some rocks from the backyard. Step 2: Sell them on Etsy. Step 3: Profit!

      • araikwao
        November 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm #

        What the freaking heck??

      • Lisa the Raptor
        November 22, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

        OM NOM NOM NOM

      • amazonmom
        November 22, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

        YES that’s what I am doing to supplement my income…

      • The Bofa on the Sofa
        November 24, 2013 at 8:30 am #

        I’ve said it many times, it is a shame that I have ethics. It would be so easy to prey on people’s idiocies.

  17. KarenJJ
    November 22, 2013 at 5:32 pm #

    Such weasel words from the Doula. Lying by omission is a form of lying. What the heck are they teaching their kids? It is completely unethical to misrepresent yourself like that.

  18. R T
    November 22, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    When I was searching for a part-time in home nanny for my two month old, I requested potentional nannies bring proof of a recent Dtap and flu vaccination and submit to a drug test paid for by us. I got this response back from one of the nannies

    “I started drinking a green smoothie every morning or twice a day if I’ve been busy, stressed, tired, or exposed to illness, and eating tons of organic fruits and veggies and I have not been sick in over 2 years now since I started it. I thought I was getting a cold a few times but every time it never actually developed into one. I seem to have a great immune system and I just don’t like taking any sort of medications, vaccines, antibiotics etc.”

    Okay, that’s fine, but I really don’t think you should be a nanny then! Especially a nanny who is watching different children in multiple households in a week. I feel like if you are a nanny and don’t immunize yourself you should share that information in your online bio! I know there are many families in our area that would hire you anyway, but give those of us who wouldn’t the ability to not waste our time putting you on a list of potential caregivers.

    It’s especially important for us because I can’t be vaccinated myself so I need everyone else around my son to be for me!

    • Bombshellrisa
      November 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

      Sounds like someone I know-always posting “natural flu shot” recipes which are teas made from pineapple and lemon juice laced with ginger and garlic. She claims her children “don’t like shots or antibiotics” and they are “devoted” to natural living. Like smoothies or lemon juice can treat pertussis. She can’t understand why I don’t ask her daughter to babysit and she is probably going to be upset with the sign we are posting on the front door once our DS is born in February (cause you learn so much the second time around) which will clearly state the door will not be answered if we aren’t expecting you AND anyone who wants to ooh and aww must be up to date with vaccines. It’s perfectly ok to set standards for people who come into your home.

      • S
        November 22, 2013 at 10:42 pm #

        Sweet fruity drinks, some devotion! I am reminded of the vile Korean concoction my mom used to inflict upon me in the name of strengthening my immune system — it had ten different herbs boiled together, looked like strong black coffee, and tasted bitter and awful. Three to six cups a day until the pot was empty. Can’t sweeten it; it loses its efficacy. Otherwise ginseng tea (also unsweetened), mild in comparison. How i would’ve loved a kale smoothie instead.

        I got all my shots too. If her kids’ bodies are so strong and healthy, how are they also too fragile for shots that literally millions of children withstand unharmed?

        • Young CC Prof
          November 22, 2013 at 11:43 pm #

          No, no, they’re not too fragile for shots, they don’t like them. And good parents never make kids do things they don’t like, such as homework, bedtime, or drinking disgusting health cleanses.

          • Bombshellrisa
            November 23, 2013 at 1:33 am #

            She thinks because the kids are in a home school type program (a couple days a week, they go to a learning center where the parents are there the entire time) that they won’t be exposed to anything harmful. Since her kids are never allowed out of her sight, she really believes her oversight is enough to protect them from all evils (from flu to whatever else)

          • S
            November 23, 2013 at 11:24 am #

            So much wasted effort poured into controlling every aspect of her kids’ lives. =(

  19. C T
    November 22, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    Warning to you healthcare providers out there: grieving parents in Utah are about to bury a teenage son whom they say died because of brain damage caused by the flu shot. I just saw the obituary -http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/deseretnews/obituary.aspx?n=chandler-blake-webb&pid=168113815&fhid=19570#sthash.uXumh9jl.gbpl – posted on my FB wall, and I’m sure it will be spread quickly by those who already lean anti-vax. No facts are publicly available as far as I can see, other than the parents’ claim, but it’s bound to have a big effect on people’s willingness to get immunizations until it gets addressed properly.

    • R T
      November 22, 2013 at 3:39 pm #

      Well, if he truly did die from the flu vaccine I hope it is properly addressed!

      • KarenJJ
        November 22, 2013 at 5:08 pm #

        Where I live there were some under 5s that died or where left brain damaged after having high fevers from a batch of flu vaccine. The vaccine specialist at the Children’s hospital investigated it but couldn’t pin down what was causing the problem. For a while you couldn’t a flu vax for under 5s at all but now they’ve reintroduced some of the flu vax brands for the kids.

        • thepragmatist
          November 26, 2013 at 12:29 am #

          I am not a fan of the flu vaccine, personally. The efficacy can be so low, and I am not really sure if the cost/benefit is worth it. My Granddad had it and contracted influenza and died anyway. πŸ™

          • Young CC Prof
            November 26, 2013 at 12:48 am #

            I’m sorry.

            The flu vax, with its 60% effectiveness, is one of those where everyone, especially healthy school-aged kids, has to get it to protect the people who really need protecting. In fact, population studies in Japan found that vaccinating children protected the elderly better than actually vaccinating the elderly! It’s only within the last 5 years or so that the CDC is really trying to push flu vaccine hard enough to get herd immunity. It’d be great if we could pull it off!

            Luckily, now they’ve got a special version for the elderly that seems to work better.

  20. Guest
    November 22, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    Wow they really just don’t believe in informed consent, do they?

  21. Trixie
    November 22, 2013 at 2:26 pm #

    Okay, so, I just read that thread. Do these people not realize that pertussis immunity isn’t lifelong? Having pertussis in the past doesn’t mean you can’t get it again. Also she doesn’t understand what HIPAA is for.

    • S
      November 22, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

      Is that the one who was saying natural immunity (from actually contracting the disease) is better than the immunity you get from a shot? Their convoluted arguments drive me up the wall. Is it good to be immune, or is it unnecessary?

  22. Courtney84
    November 22, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

    This terrifies me! I’ve been really struggling with the idea of a HepB shot the first day of life. I figured we’d do it when we saw the ped at 1 week, or at latest one month. I don’t think the vaccine is deadly or toxic. I know “feeling” isn’t a good reason to make medical or scientific decisions. But I think about suddenly living in cool air instead of bath water and needing to keep warm, having to eat instead of being fed through a tube in your belly, your circulation changin significantly, your limbs seeming to flail in this thin air …. it all seems stressful enough. Neither me or my husband have Hepatitis, we’re both vaccinated, and we don’t work in a high risk setting like patient care or a prison. I had ASSUMED I could expect that nurses, LCs, etc who’d come into contact with baby J during our hospital stay would be fully vaccinated, but obviously thats not a given. Now that I think about this further it would be discrimination to not hire someone because they did have Hepatitis. I know it’s a blood borne illness, but it is more transmissible than other BBP. So I guess that Hepatitis shot can’t wait a week. Ugh. Being a mom is hard.

    • Former NCB Zealot
      November 22, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

      Courtney, I used to think this, too. In fact, I used to be very anti-vax, my girls at 10 and 8 just recently finished catching up on shots. But then I was reading the vaccine archives on science-based medicine and I was shocked to learn that a newborn infant encounters thousands of antigens on the first day of life. The Hep B vaccine is just a few more, and is not something your baby’s body is not already doing.

      I will see if I can find the reference and link it for you.

    • Trixie
      November 22, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

      I highly doubt this moron works at a hospital. But, Hep B at birth is safe.

    • Ainsley Nicholson
      November 22, 2013 at 2:17 pm #

      My baby is just two months old, and he got his Hep B shot at birth. The way I look at it is this: vaccinating my children is one of the most loving things I can do for them. The more diseases I can protect them from, and the sooner I can arrange that protection, the better. Compared to the stress of being born, getting a shot is minor…baby will fuss for a second then fall back to sleep.

      • S
        November 22, 2013 at 2:40 pm #

        Oh, you had your baby! Don’t know if i missed that or forgot it. Congratulations!!

        • Ainsley Nicholson
          November 22, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

          Thanks! I haven’t been online much, for obvious reasons.

    • Awesomemom
      November 22, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

      Don’t worry with all the adjustments it is not even a bump in the road for the baby. All mine got it at birth and I would have even known that they had gotten an injection.

      • KarenJJ
        November 22, 2013 at 5:12 pm #

        Vaccines can cause a flare of their immune system symptoms for my kids. I was a little nervous, but the first one survived labour, and emergent c-section, a flare of her immune system issues, hunger from lack of supply while breastfeeding, and the full works of vaccines, heel prick test etc. Babies are resilient. My second one turned out to have skipped the gene anyway so my concerns were moot.

    • LovleAnjel
      November 24, 2013 at 8:33 am #

      After 20th hours of being squeezed so tight she couldn’t breathe and having her noggin repeatedly rammed into my pelvis, I doubt DD noticed a small needle in her foot.

      • Young CC Prof
        November 24, 2013 at 10:05 am #

        That’s what most pediatricians and baby nurses say, that newborn babies don’t even notice a tiny needle against all the other stress of being born. They get upset about being naked, about being clothed, being picked up and put down, etc.

    • Happy Sheep
      November 24, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

      Everything you listed is so stressful, one more poke won’t even be noticed by the baby, I can nearly guarantee it. Mine was woken up to get it and squawked more about that then the shot.

    • me
      November 25, 2013 at 11:07 am #

      All three of mine has their vit K, Hep B, eye goop, heel sticks to test for metabolic disorders, and my middle child had three heel sticks to test her blood sugar (over 9 lb at birth) before leaving the hospital. Yes, they cried momentarily. Yes the hospital staff that performed those procedures were compassionate to my children (the sweet old lady that did DD#3’s heel sticks for metabolic testing spoke so nicely to her). I was in the room and able to comfort them immediately after. It’s so not a big deal.

      And neither are the regularly scheduled vax later on. I love the way our current ped does it – no “spacing’ out nonsense; my youngest had her shots at her 15 mo visit, and is now good to go until age 4 (excepting yearly flu shots). I say just get the damn things over with ASAP. Our oldest had shots at like every visit until she was 3… not sure why they spaced them like that with her (it wasn’t at our request). Maybe more combo shots are available now and/or the CDC changed the schedule, but I’m loving the idea of not having to pack up a screaming infant/toddler after every doc visit for the next three years πŸ™‚

  23. Anonymous
    November 22, 2013 at 1:49 pm #

    “You are NOT going to give someone diphtheria or pertussis, it’s ridiculous for people to think that’s going to happen.”

    Famous last words. There’s a family in Australia that would like to have a word with you. If a doctor behaved like this they’d be doing time.

  24. November 22, 2013 at 1:24 pm #

    That sort of behaviour should be criminalized and fined. As a healthcare provider you should have to inform your clients of your vaccination status, and failure to disclose status should be punishable. The lack of accountability is jaw dropping.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      November 22, 2013 at 1:26 pm #

      But a doula is not a “healthcare provider.”

      • November 22, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

        I’d be okay with broadening it to anyone “paid for services” in the vicinity of an infant or other immunocompromised individual. Responsibility of the household to indicate that they are in the class of protected people, then up to the service provider to honestly reveal vaccination status.

      • Trixie
        November 22, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

        And who knows whether this idiot is actually an IBCLC or if she just decided to call herself “lactation consultant.” Because people do that. All the more reason, if you’re going to see a lactation consultant, to use one that works for a hospital system where staff vaccination is mandatory.

      • Stephanie
        November 22, 2013 at 7:39 pm #

        To all of the lawyers out there, could she be sued civilly for breach of contract?

  25. jenny
    November 22, 2013 at 12:25 pm #

    Holy crap! People are sympathizing, how horrible it must be to feel “judged” and how “distressing” it must be to lose a client for that reason. Seriously? I’m all for empathy, but uh…. yeah. No.

  26. The Computer Ate My Nym
    November 22, 2013 at 12:19 pm #

    Can the doulas and lactation consultants posting these comments where they brag about lying to their patients be reported? That’s definitely unethical and likely illegal.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      November 22, 2013 at 1:23 pm #

      Another thought: Giving advice on how to avoid telling clients that you’re not vaccinated demonstrates malice aforethought. If I thought a vaccine was unnecessary or higher risk than benefit, I’d tell my clients, “I’m not vaccinated for X. Here’s why I think it’s a bad idea…” Why don’t the LCs do that instead of lying if they believe that they are right?

    • Tsabhira
      November 22, 2013 at 1:24 pm #

      How could lying to patients be a crime when the people doing the lying aren’t actually authorized/legitimate care providers in the first place? I mean, if anything’s the crime there, it’s the first lie, the lie that these people are even remotely competent to give medical advice, and the State’s not doing anything about that. It’s no different from some random person on the street lying to you, and if that’s terrifying, it should be.

    • Antigonos CNM
      November 22, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

      To whom would one report such a circumstance? The entire field is completely unregulated. Some states do have legislation regarding midwives, usually quite vague as to the midwife’s responsibilities, but for all the ancillary “professions” there is nothing, mainly because they aren’t professions.

      • LynnetteHafkenIBCLC
        November 22, 2013 at 2:59 pm #

        http://iblce.org/resources/disciplinary-procedures/

        The Code of Conduct for IBCLCs includes “Maintain personal integrity” and
        “Uphold the professional standards expected of an IBCLC”.

        Not lying to clients should be covered there.

        • Antigonos CNM
          November 22, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

          Yes, if the person cares enough to even join the organization. But there is no legal compulsion to do so. Anyone can be a “doula”, anyone can be a “lactation consultant”, anyone can be a “placenta encapsulation expert”. The terms have no legal meaning.

        • areawomanpdx
          November 23, 2013 at 12:07 am #

          She’s probably not a real IBCLC. You can be a “lactation consultant” without the certification, and it sounds like she’s working for a woo group, not a hospital.

    • An Actual Attorney
      November 22, 2013 at 4:42 pm #

      I just wasted ten minutes trying to figure out who she was in real life. I was going to out her. UGH!

      • Amy Tuteur, MD
        November 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

        Based on her other posts, she appears to work for an agency in the Chicago area.

        • Trixie
          November 22, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

          She is claiming that she’s an IBCLC, so perhaps someone could search the IBCLA registry for clues to her identity….

        • An Actual Attorney
          November 23, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

          Well, she has performed a service of sorts. I never thought to ask providers about vaccines, and now I will, and will be very specific.

  27. Rachele Willoughby
    November 22, 2013 at 12:05 pm #

    My mum and I went rounds over the Tdap when she offered to watch the kids. In the end I had to use the nuclear option and tell her that if she absolutely wouldn’t get that one shot (I’m willing to give on the flu shot) we’d have to find someone else even if they did charge way more.

    • KarenJJ
      November 22, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

      That would be so stressful. I didn’t know about getting whooping cough vaccines for carers. My mother in law rang us to tell us that she’d spoken to her doctor and he’d warned that whooping cough was about and that everyone that was going to be in contact with the baby should get a booster. She had hers done then and there and was telling us so we could let everyone else know.

  28. Young CC Prof
    November 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm #

    I am so freaking disgusted. That’s just horrible, who would do that? If your babysitter decided buckling up the car seat was too much trouble, who would ever hire her? This is absolutely no different.

    When I went on the hospital tour, a couple weeks ago, I had a few questions, but the only “dealbreaker” one was: Does this hospital mandate flu and pertussis shots for all staff?

    I actually JUST got back from the drugstore, where I got my TDaP. I’m almost 32 weeks, so it should be a good time. Go on, antibody levels, spike! Push across that placenta, you can do it!

    Luckily, I don’t have to deal with this crap from my family at least. We still remember the baby who died from it back in the ’20s.

    • Trixie
      November 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

      The biggest irony of all is that most MDC members are super fanatical about car seat safety. And many members of car seat forums, who will spend $500 on a car seat to keep a 4 year old rear-facing, won’t vaccinate or do Dr. Sears schedules. And they have CPM homebirths. They are all about evidence-based best practice for car seats, but then make horribly risky decisions about their children’s health.

      (Don’t get me wrong, I am very strict about car seat safety too. My 2 year old is still rear facing).

      • Young CC Prof
        November 22, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

        Well, that’s just common sense, right? I mean, we all know someone who’s died in a car crash, but children don’t die of contagious diseases, not anymore! Only neglected underfed children, not the ones who are cared for and fed clean water and whole grain cereal and organic carrots! *sarcasm*

      • rh1985
        November 22, 2013 at 3:37 pm #

        Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with keeping a child rear facing as long as they fit, I will do that as long as my child doesn’t hate it to the point where screaming makes me a distracted driver (which rarely happens), but I’ve even seen some people suggest buying a whole new *car* to continue rear facing past two. I have a small car so once I can’t fit a RF seat in there, that’s it. I’m sure I can make it til two but after that depends on child’s size.

        • Young CC Prof
          November 22, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

          Car seat choices SHOULD be based more on size than on age. Sounds reasonable.

          • Guestll
            November 22, 2013 at 3:47 pm #

            According to my daughter’s ped, weight is less relevant than age, since children of approximately the same age will have roughly the same strength of spinal ligaments, despite differences in size.

          • Hannah
            November 22, 2013 at 6:12 pm #

            In the UK, the insurers of a woman whose three year old child was seriously injured in a crash with a drunk, drugged, driver, had to pay for contributory negligence because she had the child in the wrong car seat:

            http://obiterj.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/children-and-car-seat-belts.html

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 4:08 pm #

            Yeah, like Guestll says, it’s more important to keep a 35 lb 1 year old rear facing, than a 35 lb 3 year old, due to the strength of bones and ligaments in the spine.

          • Guestll
            November 22, 2013 at 4:24 pm #

            My daughter’s doctor’s NP gives parents printed handouts from thecarseatlady.

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

            I love her!

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

            Hmm. Good point. I was thinking more about when to move a kid from a booster seat to a regular seat. THAT’s mainly about when the kid is big enough that the adult seat and seatbelt fits properly

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 5:40 pm #

            Moving to a regular seatbelt with no booster is also about hip bone maturity and strength, which doesn’t really happen until close to puberty. One of the functions of a booster is to serve as artificial hips to help absorb some of the force of the seatbelt. A child is in danger of the pelvis submarining under the seat belt, causing the belt to impact the soft abdomen instead of the hip bones, and leading to injury. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152195142677454&set=pb.129649842453.-2207520000.1385159987.&type=3&theater

          • thepragmatist
            November 26, 2013 at 5:32 pm #

            I wonder if this is something we should pass on to women buying cars, too. I say this without any snark at all. Some women are not big enough for some cars and trucks. For example, I know from driving my brother’s big truck that I do not fit the seats or the belt well. I can barely sit in it. I know a woman who was thrown out of her seat belt at highway speed. Her two children were in car seats and were okay. Her seat belt failed her. I know another woman (a dancer friend, which is really devastating because she lost her livelihood) who had a crushed pelvis from her seat belt. I’ve heard lots and lots of bad seat belt injuries in women, to be honest, all small boned and small stature. I am not that short– I am 5.5 and my brother’s truck makes me feel like a ten year old. Meanwhile, he looks like a goofy fool in my tiny car. I’ve never even thought of this. I can’t drive my brother’s truck with my back against his seat, I have to sit right up. Hum…

          • Trixie
            November 26, 2013 at 6:01 pm #

            Dorel/Safety 1st is actually coming to market with a product to help this situation. It’s technically designed for older kids who don’t want to be seen in a booster but still need good belt fit. http://carseatblog.com/23450/safety-1st-incognito-kid-positioning-seat-preview/

            But, all things being equal, an adult woman in a crash will still fare better than a prepubescent kid of the same size, due to bone strength and maturity.

            The thing to think about with good belt fit is the fit of the lap portion, low on the hips/thighs. A shoulder belt cutting into the neck isn’t a concern unless the wearer pushes the seatbelt down off her shoulder or puts the shoulder portion behind her. Also, a really puffy coat can make the belt fit too loose. And of course, your back has to be against the back of the seat for the seatbelt to “catch” you in time.

        • Trixie
          November 22, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

          There have been some pretty great innovations in car seats these days. You can get a car seat that rear-faces to40 lbs and approx. 43″ that still fits fairly easily front-to-back in a smaller car and provides decent legroom. For under $200. Manufacturers have really stepped up their games.

          • Guestll
            November 22, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

            The Evenflo SureRide goes to 40″/40 lbs rear-facing, 65 lbs forward facing, and is $90 on Amazon in the US. It’s $130 in Canada. I wish it had been around two years ago, when we bought two Radian$.

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

            The SureRide is a great deal. The Graco MySize 70/Size 4 Me 70/Headwise 70 is even taller for rear-facing and runs about $150 on sale.

          • rh1985
            November 22, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

            Hmm, well I’m guessing I won’t have a child that large until around age 4 (just based on genetics) but right now my plan is RF until 2 then see if it continues to work after that.

          • araikwao
            November 23, 2013 at 3:50 am #

            You must be a shill for Big Restraint. Wait, there’s no car seat conspiracy theory? But they’re just in it for the money! And the mind control! And people get injured by seatbelts, too, you know!

          • Trixie
            November 23, 2013 at 6:59 am #

            There are car seat conspiracy theorists, they just are on different forums.

          • araikwao
            November 23, 2013 at 5:16 pm #

            Oh, no way!!! I just thought it was too ridiculous to possibly be true so it would be funny snark.

          • Trixie
            November 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm #

            Yeah. They tend to be men, and fairly well-educated ones, who hang out on car forums or engineering type sites. A lot of them think they understand the laws of physics better than car seat manufacturers with, you know, computers and sensors and dummies and test sleds. Sort of a Dunning-Kruger effect.

            A lot of it is fueled by an incredibly irresponsible article by one of the Freakonomics guys. He looked at death statistics in car crashes for, I think, 2-4 year olds who were just in a seatbelt vs. in a car seat, from a fairly long time ago, and decided based on his flawed analysis that car seats were ineffective and that it’s fine to just put 2 year olds in seat belts. He completely ignored INJURY statistics — and in fact car seats often prevent or reduce very, very serious injury among that age group. He completely ignored and did not control for high misuse levels among parents, or the fact that car seats have grown much better and safer in recent years.

            Another part of the conspiracy theory is that car seats don’t expire, and it’s a lie by the manufacturers to make you buy more seats.

          • November 23, 2013 at 4:07 am #

            Jeebus, I was eight before I weighed 40 lbs, and I don’t know when I hit 43″ but it couldn’t have been much before that. I remember being eight or nine before I was finally tall enough to ride roller coasters, and those require 48″.

            That seems awfully big to be still rear-facing.

          • Trixie
            November 23, 2013 at 6:58 am #

            40 lbs and 40″ is about the size of an average just-turned-4 year old. But, hypothetically, if you were a child now, it’d be fine to turn you forward facing (but still in a 5 point harness) at 3 or 4, because even though you were very small, you’d still have the skeleton of a 3 or 4 year old. My kids are tall with very long torsos, and hit 40″ before 3. They outgrow the average Britax convertible before age 2. So the recent innovation in taller/higher weight seats is a boon to me.

          • thepragmatist
            November 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm #

            Me too! I remember not being tall enough or heavy enough to go on the rollercoasters until I was in Grade 4. So are they really serious about this? Because I am not sitting my 7 or 8 year old backward in a moving car. That’s the most insane thing I’ve ever heard. How about I just drive in reverse? Would that satisfy folks? LOL.

          • Trixie
            November 26, 2013 at 6:17 pm #

            Nowhere is there a recommendation to rear-face 7 or 8 year olds. NHTSA recommends rear-facing through 3 years, unless the seat is outgrown by height our weight earlier than that. http://www.safercar.gov/parents/RightSeat.htm

        • amazonmom
          November 22, 2013 at 6:15 pm #

          I splurged on a Britax Boulevard when my 4 yo was born. She rear faced in it until age 2.5 and then forward faced until she got too tall for the seat. Now you don’t have to spend so much to get the same functionality. I did have a brand new minivan but that’s because I was replacing a broken down 17 year old vehicle. I wouldn’t have bought the van just to fit a particular car seat.

          • rh1985
            November 22, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

            I’m definitely going with an infant seat first because of our climate, so I don’t have to pick a convertible seat quite yet. I’ll have to see what the best deals are in a few months.

          • thepragmatist
            November 26, 2013 at 5:23 pm #

            LOL Not sure why you got voted down on a bucket seat. WE bought a convertible seat and it was a HUGE WASTE OF MONEY. Here, the hospital will not let you leave without checking your seat. Our seat did not fit our newborn despite the fact it was supposedly made for a newborn (our son was a normal size) and we had to get family to do a mad dash to the store and buy a bucket seat for an infant! So, yeah, I advise my friends to not waste their money on a convertible seat because the hospital will turn you away. Ours sat gathering dust for eons before he could use it!

            I know a number of parents who have been screwed this way while trying to leave hospital with their baby. My best friend had to find a used seat in a jiffy to transport hers home for the same reason. There’s nothing wrong with infant seats! You should’ve seen our babies head in this stupid convertible seat, even with the infant insert. It was just falling forward over and over again, no matter what we or the nurses did. We had two nurses and my husband at that damn thing. I still feel angrily ripped off at that particular manufacturer. Ha!

          • Trixie
            November 26, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

            I’m not sure what convertible you have, or how big your baby was, or how long ago that was, but there are many convertibles that fit newborns extremely well these days. The head falling forward would have to do with the angle of installation. If it was more upright than 45 degrees, then it isn’t safe for a newborn because the head can fall forward. But usually this can be fixed by fixing the angle of install.

          • rh1985
            November 27, 2013 at 12:44 am #

            I know for me it’s just that my baby will be born in the winter so I want to put her in her seat indoors. So regardless of the hospital rules I’d want a bucket seat.

        • Wren
          November 23, 2013 at 7:21 am #

          Nothing wrong with it IF your child doesn’t spend every trip in the car puking all over due to being rear-facing. I switched my daughter at the earliest possible time legally here on the advice of our doctor. The risk of aspirating was actually higher than the risk of not being rear facing given our driving habits at the time. My son was turned well before 2 because he outgrew the height of every rear-facing seat on the UK market at the time. I ended up importing a seat to keep him harnessed past 2 1/2. Long torso kids here. He just turned 8 and is out of a booster due to his height: 135 cm.

        • thepragmatist
          November 26, 2013 at 5:16 pm #

          I can’t rear-face in my car, my kid would have to put his legs straight up in the air or curl into the fetal position or something. Instead, I take a great deal of comfort in knowing my little car has fantastic safety ratings and that I’ve never had an accident or ticket in my entire life. I worry about him a lot more in ex’s stupid roll-over-friendly SUV that could accommodate rear-facing than I do my little car that handles like a rally car (was intended to be a rally car– great car!).

          I once first-responded to a terrible car accident on my road. The car– a Honda Civic– was completely totaled, the idiot drunk driving it had managed to spin out in snow and hit not just the front but the back (so both were crushed in completely), the police later told me he was doing 100km/hr when he crashed, and when I ran up I was preparing for death, for real. Like I was sure I was going to find body parts that car looked like nothing resembling a car.

          Instead, the “passenger cage” in that car was immaculate. There was nothing in the passenger area of the car except for blown in glass bits and small things that had been thrown around. The steering column was busted inward a bit and all the glass was blown in, but the inside was fine. The girl in the passenger seat hurt her leg and the guy driving broke his neck, but not badly enough that he couldn’t punch my ex, nearly take me out while I was trying to support his sister’s head (she was unconscious and he wanted to drag her out of the car and make a run for it– cocaine and booze will do that to you!), and then run from the cops for an hour in the wooded park behind my house, police dogs and all. Rad eh? But speaks to the safety of the car.

          POINT IS: most little cars like mine and that car have high safety ratings and I would rather be in one than in a bigger car, provided I don’t get t-boned by a truck or a train. I was so impressed that both passengers survived with non-fatal injuries. The girl was a mess, but I learned later she was okay– she wasn’t passing in and out from a head injury but from being pissed drunk. The guy was likewise treated and went to jail. He had fractured his neck but not badly enough to require an admission. Me, I spent a good 15 minutes kneeling in snow, keeping the girl awake, thinking, among other things like “Oh, my God, I am going to lose my knees to frost-bite” that the car itself was pretty fabulous. It took so long to get lights and sirens that night, because we just don’t usually get snow and ice like that and there were so many accidents.

          Needless to say, I am not worried about my car seat. I appreciated learning that the chest clip breaks in a collision and remember every time to put it over the breast bone and not the tummy. I appreciate the tips about bundling and layer my child so that he has a jacket OVER him when it’s really cold. But I do not lose sleep because my child is forward facing. And I am certainly in no position to buy another car and I LOVE my little car. I feel safer in it than any other car I’ve driven in.

  29. A Lurker
    November 22, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Disgusting. As a working doula, LLL leader, and nursing student, I feel that it is my duty to be fully vaccinated. I cannot imagine lying to someone about that, especially vulnerable families with babies too young to be vaccinated! Do you have a link or subcategory for it on mothering.com? I have an account and am about to go give someone an earful. (Screenful? It’s the internet.)

    • PrimaryCareDoc
      November 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm #

      Be careful. It’s in the “I’m Not Vaccinating” forum, which is a support-only echo chamber.

      • A Lurker
        November 22, 2013 at 12:33 pm #

        Oh God, that forum is my own personal version of the lowest ring of hell.

      • November 22, 2013 at 12:39 pm #

        And I supposed you and all your family have had every single booster out there? It’s sorta funny when doctors spout herd immunity (knowing we aren’t even close to it. Even if every single child ten and under was given every single shot on that schedule we would never have the minimum of about 65% it would take to create that). And considering the average mom has put more time in studying the shots over her pediatrician or primary doc who (if they are honest) spent such a small amount of time studying the topic then comes online in Tarzan fashion beating their chest proclaiming themselves some type of person in the know. When the truth is they have probably just read the pharmaceutical brochure. A Pharmaceutical Parrot!:)

        • Young CC Prof
          November 22, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

          Ta Da! Parachute anti-vaxxer!

          And yes, everyone in my family is perfectly up to date. So kind of you to ask.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            November 24, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

            Hep B, hep A , Tdap, typhoid fever,HPV, meningitis, flu shot and everything on schedule when I was a kid. Titers whenever apropiate as my employer. I happen to be a Medical Oncologist and I am not putting my patients at risk. If they ask about my vaccination status I answer the truth. Probably I am just a sheeple.

        • theadequatemother
          November 22, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

          everyone in my family is up to date too..and all our caregivers for the kids. It’s not that difficult.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          November 22, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

          And considering the average mom has put more time in studying the shots over her pediatrician or primary doc who

          Bullshit.

          • November 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

            LOL Nope! Just talk to an HONEST doc…oh…wait a minute!:)

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            November 22, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

            That’s not even the problem.

            Your claim about the time that the average mom has put in “studying the shots” is a bunch of bullshit.

            Reading the nonsense at mothering.com or AoA or any other anti-vax screed doesn’t constitute “studying” anything.

          • S
            November 22, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

            I have no doubt that some of them have put in lots of time doing “research.” The problems is their resources are of questionable quality (to put it mildly), and they do not have any context for the information they’re receiving.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            November 22, 2013 at 1:25 pm #

            Reading mothering.com and listening to Jenny McCarthy is not “research” nor “studying,” no matter how much time you put into it.

          • S
            November 22, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

            Yes, i meant to convey that idea with my use of quotations, but i can see how one might take offense either way. =)

          • C T
            November 22, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

            See, this is where you lose most sane people entirely. You basically are saying there are no honest doctors. That’s nonsense. Many of the commenters are doctors or work in the medical field side-by-side with doctors or are closely related to a doctor or good friends with a doctor. All it takes is for us to know ONE honest doctor, and you’ve lost all credibility. You sound like a conspiracy theorist nutter, and most people would rather listen to someone who’s been studying medicine for years than you.

          • November 22, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

            What kind of a useless, childish reply is this? Lolnope. Yes, you sound VERY educated.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 1:04 pm #

            You know, normally I love engaging with anti-vaxxers, but you don’t seem to have one original talking point. And half the points you do have, you’re either explaining them wrong, or simply don’t understand them.

          • Karen in SC
            November 22, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

            Have you read pre-med and medical school curricula?

          • OttawaAlison
            November 22, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

            Woe Alice, you seem to have an axe to grind with science-based medicine and pharmaceutical companies.

            I know many honest doctors and if you were able to see past your own bias, maybe you’ll come to learn there are some.

            I was due for my Tdap booster in February but got it done yesterday as I have a little niece/nephew due in January. The shot took two seconds, I have a slightly sore arm, but I feel fine otherwise. I got my flu shot last week so I’m up to date!!

          • Anonymous
            November 22, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

            Most doctors are parents as well. Are you saying that doctors are bribed to purposefully harm their own children?

          • Dr Kitty
            November 22, 2013 at 3:36 pm #

            So we’re all lying.
            All of us falsify our occupational health records.
            None of us get shots.
            None of us vaccinate our kids.

            SURE…

            Hands up, Alice, you got me.
            I’ve NEVER had a vaccine, ever.

            *sarcasm*

            Are you actually that dumb?

          • Eddie Sparks
            November 22, 2013 at 7:45 pm #

            I know that these points have been made by others already, but … really…?? Do you have any idea how much time doctors put into studying vaccinations?

            I’m just a first year medical student. I’ve already done an entire course on immunology, just to understand the basics of how it works. Not to mention biochemistry and microbiology. This year I estimate approximately 50+ hours on vaccinations, including formal lectures, tutorials, compulsory readings and self-study. We covered the basics of the different types, the mechanisms of actions, and their use in various clinical situations. After final exams, I spent 5 weeks in the hospital system doing my first clinical placement shadowing registrars. The doctors are studying/attending presentations/giving presentations/performing research/reading journal articles/consulting with each other EVERY DAY. For hours. On top of their patient load. If I was to become a paediatrician I would be doing this every year for the next 11 years. Minimum. Just to get my letters.

            PLUS everyone who works in the hospital system here has to prove, by serology, their immunity to the vaccination-schedule diseases. Plus get their flu shots and boosters on time and prove that as well. I don’t have to provide paperwork for the rest of my family, but as I come into contact with my family at the end of every day OF COURSE I am making sure they are completely up to date. Plus I am paying out of pocket for all my sons to get the HPV vaccination, to protect their future girlfriends.

            But, of course, you could just say that I’m lying.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 8:06 pm #

            Yes, indeed. And unlike “informed mothers,” doctors begin with basic biology, like the structure of the immune system, even BEFORE the details of vaccines.

          • Kate B
            November 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm #

            Excellent comment. It illustrates perfectly the ludicrousness of anti-vaccine mothers having the temerity to declare that their degrees from Google U make them more educated than their doctors.

          • Eddie Sparks
            November 27, 2013 at 1:21 am #

            Even knowing as much as I did about doctors before I started med school, I was still surprised at HOW MUCH time they spend on ongoing education and professional development. Even the most senior consultants. Very exciting for me, because I love the fact that, in medicine, there is always more to learn.

          • Kate B
            November 27, 2013 at 8:03 am #

            Exactly!
            I think the accusation that mainstream medicine is dogmatic is actually a form of projection by anti-vaxxers.
            Alternative medicine is inherently dogmatic. Alternative medicine claims to have ‘all the answers’; it takes no account of evidence that contradicts it’s value and rarely changes it practice based on new or emerging evidence.
            The CAM/anti-vaccination communities seem to think that this is how science works too.

          • Kate B
            November 26, 2013 at 7:40 pm #

            Just because you weren’t clever, committed or motivated enough to become a medical doctor it doesn’t make the whole field of medicine worthless.
            Becoming a qualified doctor is a long, hard, expensive slog. It’s incredibly demanding – physically, emotionally and intellectually. It takes a long time before doctors start earning worthwhile money too.
            On the whole, people become doctors because they are passionate about science, medicine, making people healthier and reducing human suffering. That’s what motivates them through all those years of seriously hard work. It’s unbelievably nasty and cynical, not to mention nonsensical, to suggest that doctors are motivated by some desire to be part of the ‘big pHarma’conspiracy. That they are all liars and thieves.
            Alice, you are a perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect. The arrogance of your ignorance is astounding.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD
          November 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

          You know, anti-vaccine nuts have been around since the beginning of vaccination more than 200 years ago and they have a perfect record! They’ve never been right even once! Nonetheless, ignorant fools continue to believe them. Perhaps you could explain it to us, since you appear to be one of them.

          • anonymous
            November 22, 2013 at 1:56 pm #

            When our first was born, we had a parade of people come see her. One of my mom’s more crunchy friends was among them and my dad(also an MD) sided with me when I said she wasn’t allowed in the house. Her argument was that she wasn’t sick so it was fine. Mom got all over me because “she drove so long to get here and you hurt her feelings.” My dad’s response was classic.

            “I’m not risking my granddaughter’s life so your friend can feel warm and fuzzy!”

          • me
            November 26, 2013 at 12:05 pm #

            This! Ben Franklin lost a son to small pox, being initially opposed to the vax, and had this to say years later:

            “In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four
            years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves
            if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.”

        • PrimaryCareDoc
          November 22, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

          Yes. We’re all totally up to date. Including TDaP boosters and annual flu vax.

          • Amy M
            November 22, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

            Us too. Well, my husband still hasn’t gotten his flu shot this year. So I guess we aren’t totally up to date. Herd immunity fail in my house. But my children always get all of their vaccines according to the CDC schedule.

          • Anonymous
            November 22, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

            I’m not sure if it’s always required to have a flu shot each year. In my line of work I have to because of the droves of people I cone in contact with.

          • Amy M
            November 22, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

            We all have asthma in my house, so its a good idea, but my husband can be a bit of an idiot when it comes to taking care of himself sometimes.

        • amazonmom
          November 22, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

          Yup, we’ve had all of what the CDC recommends. I’ve read way more than the package inserts.

        • Leslie
          November 22, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

          Actually, everyone in my family (and extended family) is current on their vaccines. AND, so are both our nannies — it is a condition of employment, spelled out in their work agreements. We pay for their shots, and insist on receipts (for reimbursement, but really to make sure they got it.) One woman changed her mind and refused to get a flu shot and a TDaP booster, so we fired her. We have a baby in the house, two older kids with asthma, and a grandmother with COPD — vaccinations are non-negotiable.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

            That’s what I’m going to do when I get a regular babysitter or nanny. Pay for the shots myself, make sure they’re actually performed.

          • Leslie
            November 22, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

            Dunno if it’ll matter to you, but make sure you explicitly include the vaccination requirement as a condition of employment in the initial employment contract. That way, if she refuses later and you fire her, it’ll be for cause and you won’t have to pay unemployment. If you just tell her later (or orally around the time you hire her) and she refuses, if you fire her you might get stuck paying unemployment (which in California equals about half her salary for six months). I know this from bitter experience. Sigh.

        • November 22, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

          Nope, not up to date here. I also spend almost zero time around young children. That’s not because of any sort of stupidity I have about vaccines, either- I’m just lazy. I don’t pretend it’s a good thing not to get my vaccines- I full well know it’s not. And my TDaP expired only this past year.

          If/when I get pregnant, you bet your ass I’m going in for all my boosters.

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm #

            It’s not a bad idea to get TDaP now, as there’s a resurgence of pertussis among adults, as well.

          • November 22, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

            Oh. Ick. I should probably go do that, then. I think my local pharmacy has it, so I wouldn’t even need to go to the doctor …

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

            Yeah. There are a few problems with this article, but the author wasn’t up to date on her pertussis vax, and she came down with it. She claims she shouldn’t have had to be up to date, since she’s not around little kids. But the acellular pertussis vax needs more frequent boosters, they are finding. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115551/jenny-mccarthy-anti-vaccination-movement-blame-whooping-cough

        • November 22, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

          Of course we have every single booster out there. We love our kid.

        • Amy M
          November 22, 2013 at 1:07 pm #

          How much time have you spent studying immunology?

        • S
          November 22, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

          “And considering the average mom has put more time into studying the shots over her pediatrician or primary doc who (if they are honest) spent such a small amount of time studying the topic…”

          Well of course the average mom has to spend more time! She’ll have to do a bunch of background reading to understand what the average physician is already equipped to understand. The average physician has _already_ put in the time developing a solid background in biology, immunology, and epidemiology, and will grasp those concepts a lot more quickly then even the most dedicated mom with an average education.

          • Dr Kitty
            November 22, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

            Yeah we’ve DONE our research and are pretty much
            “Vaccines?”
            “Uh duh!”

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          November 22, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

          And I suppose you and all your family have had every single booster out there?

          Nope. No one will give me the HPV one on the grounds that a 45 year old who is HPV negative is too low risk to worry about. Hmmph. What about my plans to have wild orgies when I’m 80? And I’m not up on yellow fever either, preferring to defer that one until I go to an endemic region or global warming brings an endemic region to me. Other than that…pretty much.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 1:22 pm #

            Oooh, you’re right. I was too old for the HPV (and already married.) I haven’t had yellow fever, anthrax or smallpox shots, either! Clearly, I am lacking in vaccines.

        • Trixie
          November 22, 2013 at 1:22 pm #

          Another vote for a fully vaccinated , on schedule, up-to-date family. And I don’t feel like I have to “do my own research” on vaccines, because you know what? The CDC has done a pretty good job of that for me.

        • Carolyn the Red
          November 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

          Where’s your research on this published?

        • Lena
          November 22, 2013 at 1:35 pm #

          You’re adorable.

        • A Lurker
          November 22, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

          Actually, our family probably does. Our son is on schedule with vaccinations, my husband and I are both peripherally in the health care world, and we are preparing to travel abroad. I got three vaccines at my last physical. Because I like not getting Hep A while I’m on vacation, among other things.

        • Julia
          November 22, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

          The average mom may well have read more random stuff on the internet about vaccines than most health care providers, but that’s precisely because that’s *not* studying.

        • Bombshellrisa
          November 22, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

          And over half of all average people can’t find Indonesia on a map. I don’t care what the average mom reads on the internet or what packaging inserts she has read-accurate information comes from your family care or pediatrician when it comes to vaccines.

        • Anonymous
          November 22, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

          Hey Alice,

          How many hours do you think that the average pediatrician spends reading, studying, and attending conferences on these kind of things? Just curious.

          Now, how many hours of formal medical training do you think a pediatrician goes through, not including their residency?

          Now, how many hours does your typical mom spend reading these same medical papers, publications, and attending these classes? Please share with us how much more educated you are than a doctor with 10+ years of experience.

        • Carolyn the Red
          November 22, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

          OK, where does the 65% you’re talking about come from? Is this value the same for all diseases?

          The only formula I know is the reproduction number, R=(beta n)/gamma, where n represents contacts per unit time, beta is probability of infection, and gamma the infectious period. If R>1, a case is likely to spawn an epidemic. If R < 1, then there will be some cases, but the outbreak will die out. But gamma and beta would be different for every disease. It's not my area, I just had one lecture on epidemiology, I don't even have a medical education. So with your superior education to a pediatrician, you should be able to give me some details. Is it a SIRS model you're using?

          (People with an actual medical education feel free to expand too. I'm just a math/computing person who took an interesting breadth course in grad school)

        • Guesteleh
          November 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

          When you’re spouting bullshit, it doesn’t make you more credible or less hostile to stick a little smiley face at the end.

          I don’t know why, but passive aggressive smilies really chap my ass.

        • Ainsley Nicholson
          November 22, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

          Add me to the list of families that get every single vaccine and booster available. I even asked to have my kids vaccinated for meningicoccal disease ahead of schedule!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            November 22, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

            You know, this happens all the time. I don’t know how many anti-vaxxers I’ve seen come with their “I bet you don’t have all your shots either” nonsense, and it’s always followed with a long list of contributors saying, yeah, I am, and so is my whole family.

            They are so used to their anti-vax world that they think that it is far more common than it is.

          • Trixie
            November 22, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

            When you say, “yes,” then their next response is, “well have you had your titers checked?”

          • Dr Kitty
            November 22, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

            And the answer is yes, I had my Hep B titres checked and it turns out I’m a super responder and could postpone my booster.
            Likewise with MMR.

            Yay me!

          • amazonmom
            November 22, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

            Haha, I actually did have my titers checked when I was a new hire at work. I’m off the charts immune to chicken pox and hep B. I did not require titers for MMR because I’ve already been vaccinated twice and had proof.

          • amazonmom
            November 22, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

            Yup, titers checked. I’m a super responder, titers off the charts. I wish I had gotten the chicken pox vax instead of the severe case of pox…

          • Are you nuts
            November 26, 2013 at 11:54 am #

            I never got chicken pox so I was pumped when the vax came out. Seing my aunt have chicken pox as an adult with pox inside her eyelids and inside her, well, other parts, I seriously did not want to deal with that.

          • Bombshellrisa
            November 22, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

            Of course! Which means that NO I guess i haven’t had all my boosters, as I didn’t need some of them.
            I just realized that if I started spouting anti vax crap, my husbands otherwise sweet aunt would chase me down on her electric cart and beat me with the handle of her cane. Both of which she has thanks to contracting polio at 17 months old (long before the vaccine). Her poor twisted legs and brittle bones along with post polio syndrome speak more to me than any anti vax idiot ever could.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

            I got titered for chicken pox and rubella when I got pregnant. Both excellent.

        • Dr Kitty
          November 22, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

          Yup had everything.
          Annual flu, BCG, Hep B, adult MMR booster, Hep A and typhoid for travel, DTaP, you name it.

          Literally the only VPDs I haven’t been vaccinated against are Yellow Fever, Rabies, Varicella and Japanese Encephalitis, and that is just because I’ve never been to SE Asia other than 4hrs in Changi airport and had I chickenpox as a child.

        • Karen in SC
          November 22, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

          Yes, this family is up to date. My sons have had their three Gardisil shots since I don’t want them or any future daughters in law to get those cancers. And since I have a fair number of friends still having babies, I am up to date on TDaP as well. So there.

          Not sure where you came up with that 65% herd immunity number, maybe your ass, but most people in my age group (50’s) and older actually suffered many of those childhood diseases. So we have the titers and count for the “herd.”

        • Burgundy
          November 22, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

          Me and all my family had every single booster out there. We schedule an annual check up and make sure we are not missing any booster. We even pay for my MIL who watches kids a lot to have the shots.

        • Guestll
          November 22, 2013 at 3:37 pm #

          Yes, we have. We’re UTD on everything on the Canadian schedule. I’m UTD on things not on the Canadian schedule (yellow fever, typhoid) because I travel to areas where these shots are required — sometimes, just to enter the country at all.
          People like you make me sick. Perfect example of ignorant privilege.

        • KarenJJ
          November 22, 2013 at 5:27 pm #

          Completely up to date here and everyone in the family has a flu shot too, even my 2.5yo that doesn’t have any immune system issue. Having a child on immunosuppressant medication will do that to a family.

          And I’d be doing more then Tarzan beating if I found there was a non-vax family in my kid’s class. I think I could be quite a vicious Mama Bear if I thought some kid was a threat to my own. “Educated” my arse, they’d be getting a quick education from me too for believing the idiocy they found on the net.

        • LovleAnjel
          November 24, 2013 at 8:39 am #

          Whole family is up-to-date, including the cat, and hubby and I have some vaccinations you probably don’t know even exist.

          Edit: we have also both had our titers checked within the last few years. So there.

        • Kate B
          November 24, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

          Aw, how cute! You think the ‘average mom’ is more educated on vaccines than the average doctor!
          Education…you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

          • November 26, 2013 at 8:40 am #

            LOL I love that you got 6 up votes from the ignorant. If you were “educated” on the matter you would know the average non-immunizing parent is higher “educated” and makes more money. It’s right on the AMA site. And if you had take the time to open a dictionary and were “educated” you would know “educated” mean learned:)

          • Kate B
            November 26, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

            Alice, honey, you are way out of your league here. In case you hadn’t noticed, there are some very intelligent and well educated people here. And by educated, I mean they have scientific degrees from proper universities. Not that they’ve spent hours reading junk science books and blogs.
            You can’t mislead or impress people with sciencey words, poorly constructed arguments and misinterpreted studies here. You are making yourself look silly by even attempting to.
            It’s true that non-vaccinating parents tend to be well educated and affluent. But they are NOT necessarily people who are educated in the sciences. A humanities degree is not going to be much use when it comes to understanding complex scientific principles or to interpreting data and statistics. In fact, it’s depressing how poor the average person’s critical thinking skills are.
            In any case, Scientists and doctors; people who actually understand immunology and statistics, overwhelmingly vaccinate. The vast body of scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
            Non-vaccinaters are, statistically, a small group of people. Because the vast majority of the public DO vaccinate; that group is inevitably going to include a much broader variety of people from a broader range of backgrounds. That includes the educated and the uneducated, the affluent and the disadvantaged.
            It’s more significant to consider the percentage of educated people that vaccinate rather than looking at the educational statuses of the very small group of people who choose not to vaccinate. And, surprise surprise, the vast majority of well educated people DO vaccinate their children.
            Your ignorance is simply astounding, Alice.

          • November 26, 2013 at 9:14 pm #

            Bravo!

          • Meerkat
            November 26, 2013 at 10:08 pm #

            Kate B, that was beautiful. Like a hug from baby Jesus.

          • Meerkat
            November 26, 2013 at 10:13 pm #

            Alice, the grammatical mistakes in your “education” rant give it a very ironic twist. Hee-Hee.

        • Wren
          November 24, 2013 at 5:25 pm #

          If every child 10 and under who could get them were given all of their vaccinations, then we continued that for every child who could get them of course we would reach well above the minimum of 65%. How can you not see that?

        • Are you nuts
          November 26, 2013 at 11:53 am #

          Yes. Had the Tdap earlier this year (as did hubby) and had titers checked to verify MMR immunity.

    • Young CC Prof
      November 22, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

      Perhaps try the “autonomy” thing. As in, only a mother can decide what risks are acceptable for her child. (Especially in the first few weeks, when they are probably NOT going out and interacting with the public much.)

      • Dr Kitty
        November 22, 2013 at 12:17 pm #

        Yeah, play the “aren’t you paternalistically deciding that you know better than the mother?” card.
        They don’t like that, but they won’t delete it.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD
          November 22, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

          I’ve found that homebirth midwives, doulas and anti-vax folks are surprisingly paternalistic. That’s why MANA feels no need to release their death statistics; patients should take their word for it that homebirth is safe.

          • Teleute
            November 22, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

            Most are happy to take their word for it, because it frees them from the responsibility of critical thought. Also, the last thing a woman needs while planning the perfect home birth is to be stressed out and second-guessing her choices.

          • Eddie Sparks
            November 22, 2013 at 7:24 pm #

            Such as stressed out by facts.

        • KarenJJ
          November 22, 2013 at 5:20 pm #

          Yeah doulas and LCs seem surprisingly not very supportive of ‘mother’s choices’ and ‘mother’s instincts’ when they don’t match their own.

  30. Sarah, PharmD
    November 22, 2013 at 11:48 am #

    OMG. I think that’s borderline criminal behavior. I am appalled.

  31. Lancelot Gobbo
    November 22, 2013 at 11:47 am #

    Oh, the risk of diphtheria might not be so remote either – remember the hugr outbreak in post-Soviet Russia when the vaccines weren’t being given very regularly after the break up of the USSR? I have to link to the evil CDC:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00022128.htm

    • November 22, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

      No the CDC is our friend on many levels. At least they admit the shots will cause harm and list the ingredients (that few doctors even know about….why should they learn about the shots? Congress gave them immunity for any lawsuit. The doctor can be as irresponsible as they want).

      • November 22, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

        Measles vaccines- almost no harm to any child, though there are occasionally (extremely occasionally) very rare ones.

        Getting measles as an infant- extremely deadly. It’s still one of the biggest causes of infant death in the world. Not so much in the US, because most of the population is still vaccinated so it’s not as endemic, but really? You think that the risks of the vaccines outweigh the risks of one of the biggest baby killing diseases in history? Your risk assessment is way off.

        As for doctors, they all learn about basic immunology in medical school. They know how vaccines work, they’ve got at least a basic idea of how they’re made, and the ingredients list is, as you say, at the CDC to look at for anyone including doctors. I’ve looked at it. I see nothing objectionable on it, because I too have an idea of how vaccines are made and can read past “scary chemicals” to figure out what they actually are.

  32. Dr Kitty
    November 22, 2013 at 11:43 am #

    I LOVE the fact these people have no compunction about putting their unethical behaviour ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

    If knowing your HCPs vaccination status is important to you, ask to see WRITTEN evidence of it.

    I have documentation of my hep B status (and the fact my next booster isn’t due until 2015) and my vaccination record.
    Most proper HCPs do.
    ASK FOR IT.

    • Are you nuts
      November 22, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

      Sad that a patient would have to even ask. Before reading today’s post, I would have thought that asking to see vax records in writing was positively PSYCHO… But I guess I was wrong.

    • theadequatemother
      November 22, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

      I can’t get my hospital priv renewed without proof of vax and immunity status…including the flu vaccine.

      • PrimaryCareDoc
        November 22, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

        Likewise. Plus an annual PPD.

        • drmoss
          November 23, 2013 at 10:11 am #

          Which is always an amusing process when you were given BCG as a teen in the UK. “It’s going to be positive, you know” “WHAT! You’ve had TB?” “No, but I had the vaccine and this test will make a mess of my arm, you will want a CXR, then I see an ID consultant, we have a good laugh, and then we repeat it all next year.” All this is compounded when I mention that I have no hearing in one ear and 50% left in the other from streptomycin. “So you DID have TB!” “Nope, there was a fashion in the early sixties for treating otitis media with a single shot of streptomycin. I’m glad I’m deaf rather than vertiginous, really.”

          • Dr Kitty
            November 25, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

            I had BCG as a child and now, 20 years later my Mantoux is non reactive (which happens).

            I have a polite conversation where I DECLINE to have a BCG!

            Occupational health in the US and UK are rather different when it comes to TB.

  33. November 22, 2013 at 11:40 am #

    It’s amazing how she believes that she is immune to contracting (and spreading!) all diseases simply because she wants to be. Newsflash: The bacteria that causes pertussis doesn’t care that you are a postpartum doula. It also doesn’t care if someone is a premature infant, a teenager, a 40 year old marathon runner, or a frail 95 year old woman. It just needs a host. No one is exempt–not even the doulas.

    • November 22, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

      Or that 80% of those who get pertussis were vaccinated. The shot is not as effective as you think. Once they changed it from whole cell and removed thimerosal it became less effective (acellular)..it is less antigenic…but safer on another level. You may have a false sense of security, unless one has actually had the disease.

      • theadequatemother
        November 22, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

        because they were vaccinated in the past and hadn’t had a recent enough booster. The CDC and corresponding agencies in other countries have changed their recommendations. This is a reason to GO GET A BOOSTER…not to cry “ineffective” and “don’t bother.”

      • Box of Salt
        November 22, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

        In any disease outbreak, counting the infected folks who were vaccinated vs unvaccinated infected folks is the wrong question.

        You need to find out the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated who were exposed and did NOT get sick.

        And as a matter of fact, vaccines do protect children from disease, and in particular, pertussis: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/6/1446.full

        “Vaccine
        refusers had a 23-fold increased risk for pertussis
        when compared with vaccine acceptors, and 11% of pertussis cases in the
        entire study population were attributed to vaccine
        refusal.”

      • Former NCB Zealot
        November 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

        The scientific community freely admits that DTaP wears off earlier than DTP. It is not some dirty secret. That’s the difference between real science and quackery. Real science admits that modern medicine is not perfect and will even tell you its own limitations and tradeoffs. Alternative medicine pretends it is a panacea is always right. CPMs never kill babies and vaccines are never good and if you just breastfeed for two years and let your baby play in the dirt she’ll never get asthma. Bullsh*t.

        • Bombshellrisa
          November 22, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

          And herbs “cure” cancer! Doctors won’t admit that! It’s a conspiracy! “They” don’t want you know that!!

          • Young CC Prof
            November 22, 2013 at 6:44 pm #

            All herbs cure cancer. Definitely.

          • Bombshellrisa
            November 22, 2013 at 6:47 pm #

            Nah, you need a naturpath to give you the right ones. You might mix up your mistletoe with your licorice root otherwise : )

      • OttawaAlison
        November 22, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

        Yup, the medical community admits that the pertussis vaccine isn’t 100% effective. I got pertussis 29 years ago as a secondary infection to chicken pox though I was vaccinated. I coughed for 3 months, lots of fun for a 7 year old.

        I may have some natural immunity left, however I’m not going to rely on it.

        • drmoss
          November 23, 2013 at 10:05 am #

          Nor should you have to if you get a TDaP every ten years as the schedule says. The acellular pertussis vaccine may not last as long, but it is good for ten years, and since tetanus is a nasty way to go…..why not keep current?
          Jeez, I go back to the days when parents refused DTP in the 70’s because of encephalitis concerns. No one ever did the math, even then. 1 in 10,000 risk of encephalitis (estimated at the time; I don’t know if accurately) is clearly less than the risk of death from pertussis in infants, so there is no need for farting around – the vaccine is the smaller risk so that’s what you do. Perhaps our problem is that not enough people hang out at a bookmaker’s at the weekend and learn about odds.

      • Guestll
        November 22, 2013 at 3:41 pm #

        The efficacy and longevity is a concern…and so is the fact that too few folk get their boosters.

        Also of concern is your apparent inability to understand basic math, despite having such a soooper education: http://skeweddistribution.com/2012/05/14/true-or-false-there-are-more-vaccinated-pertussis-cases-than-unvaccinated/

      • araikwao
        November 23, 2013 at 4:08 am #

        Immunity to pertussis wanes over time, regardless of how you acquire that immunity. And of course most cases are amongst vaccinated kids, because most are vaccinated. Say 2 of 100 vaccinated kids got pertussis, and 1 of 10 unvaccinated kids also got pertussis. Yes, more vaccinated kids got pertussis, but 2% of their group got pertussis, compared to 10% of the unvaxed group. (Random numbers used for illustration purposes). This has probably already been said downthread.

        • Eddie Sparks
          November 23, 2013 at 5:45 am #

          Either way, it’s a point worth making. It would also be interesting to look at the figures for the age of the child getting sick and the severity of the disease in the vaccinated versus non-vaccinated populations.

          • Young CC Prof
            November 23, 2013 at 9:35 am #

            The CDC did quite recently. IIRC, most of the properly vaccinated kids who caught it were around 9 or 10, so the conclusion is that the booster schedule isn’t quite right.

            The pertussis immunization schedule is a work in progress right now, as the authorities try to figure out how to fight a disease that spreads by air and frequently appears in a subclinical form in adults, all with a less-than-perfect vaccine and poor vaccine uptake.

      • Suzi Q 38
        November 27, 2013 at 11:33 am #

        I “upped you” Alice!

        • November 27, 2013 at 11:37 am #

          Ha! I haven’t read the responses because you need to know your audience and how well studied they are on an issue (just struggling to post from a mobile device i can’t see). I am just using Disqus to read the comments of those who show a real fortitude to actually study the issue and actually show they have an open mind to the issue at hand (because science dictates an open mind, not a closed one). That said Suzi I read everything you say and enjoy it very much

          • Poogles
            November 27, 2013 at 4:01 pm #

            “you need to know your audience and how well studied they are on an issue ”

            And clearly you have failed there, because you apparently continue to think you are more “well studied” on vaccines than the multiple commenters here (many of them actual medical professionals) who have corrected your misinformation.

            “because science dictates an open mind, not a closed one”

            Yeah, but not so open your brain falls out. Data matters, and the data shows that vaccinations are effective and safe. Are you not open-minded to that?

    • Trixie
      November 22, 2013 at 1:26 pm #

      No — doulas are Majick!

  34. Amy M
    November 22, 2013 at 11:40 am #

    Wow. That’s awful. While she’s right that is highly unlikely that she’ll spread diptheria, pertussis is another matter altogether. I was very scared about that one when my children were born since they were a little premature. I figured if they got pertussis it would kill them, and I breathed a sigh of relief after they had received those vaccines. There weren’t any major outbreaks of it in my area, but that was the most likely VPD for us to encounter, so that was the one I was worried about.

    I wonder what happens when one of these loons DOES spread ptx to a baby? Will that change her mind about the importance of vaccines? Of course the loon would probably have ptx herself, which might be uncomfortable enough to remind her how important these vaccines are.

    • Antigonos CNM
      November 22, 2013 at 11:46 am #

      No, she most probably won’t admit liability. She is likely, IMO, to claim that someone else infected the baby who then passed it to HER.

      Doctors and hospitals need to begin to compile lists of “questions to ask” various persons who come in contact with infants, and create a brochure which can be handed to pregnant women and new mothers. If, after all, hospitals feel comfortable browbeating women into breastfeeding, they ought not to feel at all uncomfortable warning about the potential hazard of unvaccinated persons being around newborns.

      • Amy M
        November 22, 2013 at 11:52 am #

        Good point. And I agree with your “questions to ask” brochure idea, that’s excellent.

      • Trixie
        November 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

        I’m pretty sure I did get a handout with my last birth warning me not to let anyone who was unvaccinated for pertussis or flu around my newborn.

      • Suzi Screendoor
        November 22, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

        How f**ked up is that? True though, nurses spent significantly more time trying to convince me to continue breastfeeding (even though it was not good for my mental and physical health) than in explaining the benefits of vaccinating. I suspect that vaccinating has a greater public health benefit than breastfeeding, so I hope we see a shift in emphasis soon, especially given that vaccination rates are falling so low and herd immunity is compromised.

    • Young CC Prof
      November 22, 2013 at 11:51 am #

      Thing about pertussis is that it flies under the radar so easily. A healthy adult who had the whole-cell DTP as a child often gets it as a “cold” that just hangs on for a few weeks. Even if she did spread it, would anyone be able to identify the source? Would she admit it, even to herself?

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