Update to the #notburied twice campaign

notburiedtwice

Today’s main post is going to be about a review of the recent Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA) paper by a professor of statistics. However, I don’t want Jan Tritten, Midwifery Today, MANA, Melissa Cheyney or anyone else sign with relief at the thought that we’ve moved on and they can just pretend that yet another dead baby never existed; hence this update.

Thusfar, 369 people have signed the petition that is being sent directly to Jan Tritten, the midwife who crowd sourced a life and death decision with her Facebook friends:

Jan Tritten,

We wish to express our revulsion at your unprofessional behavior and the resulting death of a baby.

If you have not signed yet, please consider doing so in memory of the baby who died a preventable death.

In response to the #notburiedtwice campaign, the homebirth midwifery community seems to have moved into full “deny responsibility” mode. They are quite good at it; after all, they have lots of practice.

Midwifery Today has responded with this gems:

Midwifery Today 1

And then a more considered attempt at avoiding accountability of any kind:

Midwifery Today 2

  1. It wasn’t Jan’s patient! Irrelevant. Health care providers aren’t waitresses who can walk right by declaring, “Not my table.”
  2. There was a physician involved! Really? Jan specifically stated that she did NOT have to transfer care to a physician.
  3. We’re going to delete everything and bury this dead baby twice, once in a tiny coffin in the ground and then again by deleting his existence! Not this time, you’re not.

We haven’t heard a lot from the larger homebirth community, but they are out there and they are worried.

Doula Cole Deelah offers a not so subtle warning to anyone thinking of breaking ranks for something as a trivial as a dead baby.

Birth workers

English to English translation:

If we don’t protect Jan Tritten from accountability when a baby dies, who will protect us from accountability when we let babies die?

Unwittingly quite revealing, no? Homebirth midwives don’t hold each other accountable in the death of a baby because they don’t want to be held accountable when they let babies die. Instead they will hold rallies for the midwife, scream “persecution,” and try to delete from public consciousness the fact that the baby ever existed .

But this time, we’re not going to let them. This baby will be #notburiedtwice.

  • help

    I am a friend of this family and feeling lost as what I should do. They are not upset with the midwife and think this would have happened whomever they were seeing. The midwife was Christy Collins, this happened in Las Vegas, NV. The baby died after an emergency cesarean, never left the operating room alive. Centennial Hills Hospital has not reported this. There was an OB that was called after the last ultrasound test and he urged them to go immediately to the hospital. This was the 1st point anyone was alerted that anything was wrong.

    Christy was sanctioned in California, but moved to Nevada where there are no laws governing home birth or lay midwives. So, she was able to practice without restriction.

    I’m afraid I would add to the grief of these parents by reporting something. I’m not even sure who to tell. The hospital didn’t report anything.

    http://www.sistersinchains.org/our-sisters-in-chains.html

    • Christy Collins, CPM (midwife), 2011
    Charged with practicing medicine without a license. Took a plea of misdemeanor practicing midwifery without a license. Ordered to pay nearly $10,000 in restitution

    • NoLongerCrunching

      I don’t know the answers to your questions, but I am so incredibly sorry for the loss of your friend’s baby.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I thought Christy Collins has denied being the midwife?

      If that is the case, you might want to tell your friends that she is denying any involvement in the matter. Why would she do that? Why is she hiding from it?

      • Jessica S.

        That was my understanding. That’s pretty bold of her to step out and defend “the midwife” when it was in fact herself. Not that I expect much in the intelligence department for her.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          I don’t know it was her. I haven’t been contacted by anyone. I am very suspicious of the mention of Sisters in Chains. How would a casual friend of the mother know that?

          The person who posted the comment was from Las Vegas, but I wonder if we are being tricked and once I print the person’s claims as true, he or she will pop up to say that I never verified it.

          • Squillo

            With all due respect to the poster, I think you’re very smart to be cautious.

          • Jessica S.

            Your comment popped up as I was typing an almost identical sentiment!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Note that I did not direct my comment to Dr Amy, but to the poster above, who claimed that she knew the parents and that Christy Collins was the midwife and didn’t know what to say.

            To that poster, if that is true, then it is worth knowing that Christy Collins has denied being the midwife, and if she really was, then the parents deserve to know that.

          • Zornorph

            I would think Sisters in Chains would show up on a goodle search of the midwife’s name? But yes, I agree it’s best to be prudent.

          • auntbea

            JINX!

          • auntbea

            Definitely you should verify, but it’s not all that surprising the poster would know about Sister’s in Chains. It’s one of the first things that pops up when you google Christy.

          • Jessica S.

            I think you’re on the mark. As Squillo says below, with all due respect to the poster and to the event, it seems too perfect a story, without proper evidence.

          • theNormalDistribution

            She is the Skeptical OB, yanno!

          • Gardenia

            Could somebody (maybe a doctor?) contact the hospital the friend mentioned and point them in the direction of these posts? Just in case they are telling the truth, or would that be totally out of line? I’m not a doctor or health professional so I’m not familiar with how theses things work.

          • Bomb

            If the person is still reading the thread and replies, perhaps they can email you personally an email address to the parents so that it can be communicated that during whatever phase of grieving they are in, there is an entire community of people that want justice for their child, and that they are victims of gross negligence that deserve answers from the midwife that has abandoned them by claiming to have nothing to do with the birth.

          • MLE

            I googled “Christy Collins Midwife” and it was the second hit. However the same + NV or CA did not turn it up at all. Maybe they even knew about it before the birth went so wrong. But you’re right not to endorse it just as everyone commenting with offers of support to the parents/family are right as well.

    • Young CC Prof

      “They are not upset with the midwife and think this would have happened whomever they were seeing.”

      I was afraid of that.

      I am so sorry for your friend and her family. I don’t know her, I don’t know if finding out what really happened and pursing justice would help or just add to the grief.

    • moto_librarian

      First of all, my deepest condolences to your friends. I am simply outraged by how things were handled. I do not know what the laws are in Nevada regarding midwives. They certainly have someone to report it to, but whether or not anything will actually be done is an unknown. People will be asking a lot of questions about this.

    • Guesteleh

      Does the family know the case was discussed on Facebook? Do they know about the furor surrounding the case and the attention given to it by Amos Grunebam? I’m very sorry for their loss. What a terrible situation.

    • http://momofmanyfeet.wordpress.com Bambi

      I am so sorry for their loss. They need to question, hardcore. This WAS preventable. The midwife is lashing out at even being assumed as being the midwife, which indicates guilt. This is preventable. Hopefully the parents come to realize that she really dropped the ball.

    • lola

      I’m so sorry for your friend’s baby. I can’t believe that someone who was barred from practicing midwifery just decided to move so she could inflict herself on other families.

    • moto_librarian

      Do your friends know that she got in trouble in California? Do they know that she crowd sourced on FB? I am not suggesting you ask them these questions now, but with time, they may start wondering.

    • anion

      I am so very sorry for your friends’ loss. What a horrible thing to happen. And I hope you’re all right; it’s not easy to be in your position.

      If you are interested in reporting this, the best place to start would likely be the NV Attorney General’s office. They will know, or be able to determine, what laws if any apply in this case. Even better, they can and do consult directly with state legislature, which means they can recommend investigations on that level and/or that legislation be put in place (this is why it’s probably better to start there rather than your local District Attorney).

      I totally understand that you don’t want to further hurt your friend, but in the long run I believe you’ll be helping not only her, but the many other women who could find themselves in her situation. Your friend was lied to, misled, encouraged to ignore medical advice, and essentially victimized here, and she will deal with this for the rest of her life while the midwives who let her baby die say, “it’s always sad when a baby dies. Prayers!” and trot off to kill another baby as if nothing happened.

      If it helps, I am certain someone else would or will be reporting this as well. Adding your voice could make a difference.

    • anion

      By the way, do your friends know that Christy had the unbelievable gall to post a poem about how babies don’t have due dates on her FB page? Immediately following the death of their precious infant, a death for which she is responsible and which could have been prevented had she not ignored the due date?

      She’s like a child who sliced someone’s arm open, insisting that there’s no danger in playing with knives and nobody ever got hurt doing it while her victim bleeds out in front of her.

      • Trixie

        Do they know she was posting all over Facebook about the details days after the baby died? I have a full transcript if anyone needs it.

    • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

      You should let the family know what christy has been saying about the situation online. She gave all kinds of details and then pretended not to be the midwife involved in this.

      • auntbea

        I disagree. It is cruel to let the parents know. They are grieving. They don’t need to know the magnitude of the betrayal right now.

        • Elizabeth A

          What are they trusting their midwife with now, while they don’t know? Is not tellingsparing them pain, or putting them in danger?

        • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

          They deserve to know sometime, I’m not saying go bother them right now about it. I think some people would want to know ASAP, some would want more time.

    • Trulyunbelievable2020

      “They are not upset with the midwife and think this would have happened whomever they were seeing.”

      They are almost certainly wrong.

    • Thankfulmom

      If indeed you are telling the truth, I would direct your friend to everything you have been reading here (screencaps of mt posts are here). Of course they will be shocked. No one wants to think the person they trusted their child’s life with was not knowledgeable enough, was negligent, and steered them away from lifesaving care. The thought that someone was negligent and untruthful with them will seem incomprehensible.

      Their baby is cold and dead in a grave because someone wanted to play midwife. Let the parents see just how much their midwife cared by seeing what she posted and what she tried to cover up.

      We live in a day and age of medical care and intervention that saves lives. If we can use and accept other inventions of our time, why can’t we use the technology (ultrasounds, bpp) to warn us of problems and interventions (labor inductions, c/s’s) to save the lives of our children? Each child is a gift and deserving of the very best care available.

      By speaking up, the parents may be able to steer other parents away from a negligent midwife.

      • Thankfulmom

        Not right now, but after they’ve buried their baby. In time they may well want to know the truth of the matter. This is such a heartbreaking situation, no one wants to believe the person they trusted could have been negligent.

    • auntbea

      I’m rather surprised the hospital hasn’t reported it, but perhaps they think there is nothing they can do. I would second the suggestion below to start with the Attorney General’s office.

    • Bomb

      Ugh. Centennial hills hospital is within walking distance of my house, and also about the worst hospital in the city they could have transferred to. They have no upper level NICU. Transferring an infant emergency there is just stupid. The midwife should have known better, but then we’ve already seen how little she knows about caring for patients, let alone local hospitals.

      There isn’t really anyone to report this to. Nevada doesn’t license or regulate midwives in any way. Contacting our representatives and hoping they do something to change that fact may be worthwhile.

      After my own homebirth trainwreck I did not initially blame the midwife, but with time anger did rise up. Hopefully in time the parents will realize they were scammed by an ignorant hack, and we’ll be here with open arms to console and support them.

    • Bomb

      You may want to contact local news stations with all the screen caps of the events that unfolded. “Las Vegas Midwife crowd sources medical information on Facebook during medical emergency, resulting in death of baby, then denies being the midwife involved” would be a pretty big story around here. You’d have to out the midwife and the parents, which may cause the parents grief, but justice for their dead baby and not letting this crackpot bury it twice may alleviate that pain. It doesn’t really do anyone any good for the parents to live in a fantasy land where nothing could have saved their baby, especially if they try to have another and hire the same crackpot.

    • knows you

      Whoever this is, I know the case that happened in Las Vegas… I know the parents very well. So please contact me whoever you are. Please. Heres my email: Evanescence0126@yahoo.com

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        grieving family, could you please stick to one screen name? Otherwise it is very confusing.

  • MLE

    Here’s an accident waiting to happen:

    • ngozi

      It doesn’t matter what you call it if you are going to ignore the risks anyway.

    • anion

      Wait, low-risk moms develop life-threatening conditions? I thought birth was totally safe and low-risk moms didn’t even need somebody to help them!

    • Anonymous

      Great. I know someone who is a client of Margie’s. Nice to know she’s in good hands. *sarcasm*

  • auntbea

    Dr Amy, a poster on Jan Tritten’s page just compared your effect on homebirth to the effect of Satan on our souls. Considering how many times Satan has supposedly succeeded in winning and crushing souls, I would say, Keep up the good work!

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Recently I got an email that addressed me AS Satan.

      • auntbea

        Not even “Dr.” Satan? How rude.

        • An Actual Attorney

          Madame Satan?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      A baby is dead and all they are worried about is being “picked on.”

      • Trixie

        Marlene Waechter is a total whack job.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    There are probably even more reasons.

  • Meredith

    Someone posted this already (apologies, I can’t find the comment now), but it bears repeating: Midwifery Today has started soliciting “concerns” about this situation. You can comment under their post of Feb 24 starting with “For those of you who have been posting on this page…” There are also a lot of really good comments on that post that deserve to be liked. I’m heartened by the comments that people have been making!

    • MLE

      That’s possibly the most bizarre thing about the situation. I mean what the flying pelican are they talking about? The list of concerns is every comment that was deleted! It almost feels like entrapment.

      • Meredith

        Yes, I did roll my eyes at them for that — if you want to hear what people think, maybe don’t delete their comments? My interpretation is that they were just hoping the outrage would go away, but it was so loud and so insistent they realized staying silent was an even worse PR move.

        I also think they’re playing dumb to a certain extent — anyone with half a brain can see what the problem is, but Midwifery Today is asking us for our “concerns,” as if the issue here is one of personal emotional response (“Oooo, this situation makes my concern go all gooey”) rather than of impersonal fact (a baby died and multiple midwives have no clue how to recognize a medical emergency).

        Also, by soliciting our concerns rather than using their own sweet brains, Midwifery Today gives themselves an out — they can ignore any broader implications that aren’t named by commenters, and they can quibble over wording rather than addressing the real issues.

        So, my take on it is: although the way in which they caved to public outrage is typically disingenuous, the fact that they caved at all surprises and pleases me. And while I have no great faith in the quality of the answers we’ll receive, I will gladly take the opportunity to bring some logic and sanity into the Midwifery Today page.

  • Trixie

    And here’s Christy Collins diagnosing a labor over the internet in which a woman whose water has been broken for 2.5 days and is dilated to 3 doesn’t want to go to the hospital because she’s scared of antibiotics and pitocin. Christy’s advice is castor oil and homeopathy.

    https://www.facebook.com/MidwiferyToday/posts/10150310747420266?comment_id=18006854&offset=0&total_comments=90

    “Christy M. Collins I’m sure her midwives are doing everything they can, but check to make sure water is truly broken (sometimes it’s a high leak). If not, leave it alone and go home, OR if it is, do a vaginal exam and re-break the water again and tear bag further open with fingers over the baby’s head while sweeping membranes. I would do antibiotics as well, castor oil, cottonroot bark, and homeopathic cimicifuga and gelsemium.”

    “Christy M. Collins Oh my goodness, there are many extreme sides of trusting birth and to certain extents, however WHY do you subscribe to Midwifery Today if your comment is going to be the threat of losing a baby due to stubbornness?? Water being broken on it’s own for 60 hours is NOT a reason to head straight to the hospital. What if her only vaginal exam was just 12 hours ago, when the clock really “starts”? 85% of women start labor within 24 hours after their water breaking, and 15% can take longer.”

    “Christy M. Collins Brittani: in answer to your questiom, “Why do you subscribe to Midwifery Today if your going to give unsafe advice?”. I am a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL MIDWIFE.”

    “Christy M. Collins Brittani: Your comments are completely uneducated and fear-based strictly upon things you have heard and misunderstood about birth, to include SROM, infection, and …”the baby’s heart could stop beating?” I hope YOU understand that “a baby’s heart could stop beating” in a completely low-risk situation as well and if you want to be in a hospital so you can have an emergency c-section, then by all means, that’s where you should be. I am sure her midwives were hired by the mother because she felt comfortable with them and their skills as her provider. A post such as this is a fine place place to sit back and learn, but I don
    don’t agree in contributing negatively UNLESS you have personal or professional experience in the matter or something positive to give about this woman’s BIRTH EXPERIENCE. Telling her to run to the nearest hospital and not trust her midwives is pretty crappy advice unless you have evidence to the contrart.”

    So that’s how you stay ON TOP OF A SITUATION.

    • OBPI Mama

      My former midwife just let a mom go for 8 DAYS with her water broke and no labor… LUCKily mom and baby are fine (been a week since birth). But you know what this means… all her other “patients” that go 8 days with water broke and no labor will be just fine too… because 1 story of luck is evidence-based care…

    • http://thefresstyler.blogspot.com/ Hannah

      This is just…terrifying. Bark and medical grade antibiotics are not the same thing. Rebreak bag? Honestly…it just sounds barbaric.

    • Melissa

      And why was Mom so afraid of antibiotics and pitocin? Because the NCB community scared her with fake information about how these things lead to…actually, what do they lead to. It’s sort of funny because we know that in the worst case homebirth you end up with a dead baby and dead Mom. If the NCB fears of hospital birth are taken to their conclusion you have…mom with a c-section? But why are c-sections so bad? Because they interfere with bf. Why is not bf so terrible? Because then your child will have allergies. Autism? I mean, the worst case of hospital

      • NoLongerCrunching

        >But why are c-sections so bad? Because they interfere with bf.

        Except that research shows that c-section moms are as successful at breastfeeding as VB moms… oops! (Snark intended for anti-c/s folks, not you Melissa)

  • Trixie

    Here’s Christy Collins on an MT Facebook thread from a year ago explaining why she practiced medicine without a license in CA and why she doesn’t believe in liability insurance: https://www.facebook.com/MidwiferyToday/posts/10151496671045266

    “Christy M. Collins Elizabeth, you are wrong. Katie (and myself) were charged because we performed midwifery/medical actions (according to CA law) without a license in a state that licensing for midwives is required. There are states where midwifery is legal, alegal, and illegal. There are definitely states where licensing has not taken place for CPMs, however practicing is not illegal, it is alegal-in other words, there is no law stating it is legal through licensing or illegal.”

    “Christy M. Collins Krista: 1. Liability insurance is ridiculously expensive for what midwives are paid and their clientele load (did you know that OB’s pay over $40-80K a year in malpractice insurance?)
    2. Minimum standards for what; non- evidence-based care?
    3. Less than 10% of midwives in states with required physician supervision written into the law truly have what would fall under the definition of physician supervision. It will slowly disappear from all laws until malpractice insurances change their tune-it is the OB’s insurance which actually prevents legal back-up for midwives.
    4. Because she knows history and doesn’t want to put herself of her family through it as well.

    Open your ears.”

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      This is just plain scary.

    • http://thefresstyler.blogspot.com/ Hannah

      The stupid actually hurts.

    • Guestll

      I don’t even know what to say to this. She’s remarkably confident for someone so egregiously ignorant. Bad combo, bad combo.

  • KarenJJ

    Just on those chilling words by Cole Deelah, it’s why whistleblowers have such a hard time. People close ranks and don’t want to rock the boat because they know their record isn’t exactly stellar as well. It takes a lot of guts to stand up in your own industry and say that something is not right. I hope some of the midwives start being more vocal about poor quality providers within their ranks. If I’d gone through CPM training I’d feel pretty ripped off that my training was actually substandard and inadequate to the task at hand. But how can they stand up to the heads of their organisations? Missy Cheyney, Jan Tritten. There’s a lot that is rotten in midwifery and the ones at the top are too busy creating the image that they are “professional” while acting in a way that is unprofessional and unethical.

  • Lost in Suburbia

    How is Jan, or anyone supposed to provide details to prove they were not involved? Isn’t it hard to prove a negative? If they do provide something that others feel is acceptable proof, then would they also be accused of violating privacy?

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

      It’d be easy if they’d just say who was the midwife at the birth.

    • Melissa

      It’s actually pretty easy to prove a negative. We do it in courts all the time. It’s called an alibi. If Jan tells us what state this story happened in AND she was somewhere else that will help prove they aren’t involved. And it is broad enough that it shouldn’t be considered a violation of privacy.

      Although there is a strong argument that any duty to privacy that exists between the patient and midwife was violated when that midwife went to someone who is not a practicing midwife and allowed them to crowdsource things on their page. I know that atty/client confidentiality is violated if a non-client is in the room when the private information is discussed (i.e. if you go to a friend to give her moral support about her divorce you should not be in the room when the confidential stuff is discussed because that would break the privilege). Also, the duty of privacy is to the patient and not to the midwife. Jan covering up who the midwife was is not protecting patient privacy because even if we know the name of the midwife we don’t know who the patient is (unless the Mom blogged about hiring this particular midwife). Certainly saying the state it happened in would not be a violation of privacy.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Christy Collins sent me a Facebook message:

    • Stacy21629

      Bravo, Dr. A. Bravo.
      What was the question that got deleted?
      So…how difficult is it to look up Nevada’s birth and death certificate information? Is that public information? We know the day this baby died…shouldn’t be too hard to match up. Someone more internet smart than me…search away!

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

        While looking into it I found this group. I don’t know if they include deaths like this one, but I bet they’d be interested in light of recent events… http://www.childdeathreview.org/

    • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

      If nothing else this is a record of the lies being told within the CPM community about this case. When the real details come out we will be able to compare it to all the BS these midwives said beforehand.

    • Trixie

      Oh Christy sweetie. Oh honey. It didn’t turn out so hot for the last person who tried to sue Dr. Amy. Stop freaking out and just tell the truth.

    • Burgundy

      Correct me if I am wrong. If she “takes legal action”, then she will have to disclose the whole event – including the midwife and the family involve, right?

  • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

    I’m noticing that a lot of people using the hashtag are not tweeting it at people. Think of ANYONE who might be interested and spread it around.

    • Karen in SC

      When you tweet to someone, do all of that person’s followers get the tweet? Or does the recipient have to re-tweet for that to happen?

      • anion

        They have to RT.

      • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

        the recipient has to RT, but sending it in the first place gives it a chance right?

  • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

    I’m noticing that a lot of people using the hashtag are not tweeting it at people. Think of ANYONE who might be interested and spread it around.

  • Irène Delse

    Anybody tried Maggy Korth-Baker @maggykb or Xeni Jardin @Xeni at Boing Boing? Maggy is a science journalist and Xeni often covers women’s issues.

  • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

    What about Skepchick? Think this might crack the woo for anyone?

    Or are we only tweeting “emotionally safe people” that everyone agrees on and nobody finds any fault with?

    • Karen in SC

      I tweeted Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Dr. Jen Gunter, and plan on hitting Jennifer Margulis, and others. It’s fun to search for names!
      Along with tag, I’m sending link to stats analysis.

    • staceyjw

      Maybe Skepchick and their new parenting site will take it on? It is about time they got a clue about HB.

      I’m finding there are few ”emotionally safe” people when it comes to HB; the pool of rational people, that actually care about the topic, is depressingly small. The HBers are often totally incapable of any criticism, no matter how accurate or how sugar coated. Maybe too much time in the echo chamber?

      • Melissa

        I have the same problem. I talk about the midwife stuff often in my public administration and policy classes. Generally the attitude is that if women are stupid enough to opt for homebirth than they pretty much deserve what they get. It is mighty upsetting.

        • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

          You should point out that everyone has a weak spot to irrational ideas somewhere in their mind, and that one type of irrational belief isn’t superior to another. It doesn’t give midwives the right to lie to clients either.

      • Irène Delse

        At least it would be worth a try. There are some surprisingly woo-full writers on that site, as we saw with Chris Breechen’s appalling piece about his partner’s homebirth. But others at least have enough appreciation for data to think hard about it and not dismiss criticism of HB as “anti-woman”. Of course, the parenting blog is more about sharing experience, so they offer a very mixer bag, in term of science and critical thinking. The main Skepchick blog is historically the one dealing with woo and quackery marketed at women.

    • Guesteleh

      Try GOMI. I know they focus on bloggers but with the screencaps and their recent posts on TFB, they may be interested in writing about this.

    • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

      who said anything about ‘emotionally safe people’? I just don’t want anti homebirth activism associated with bigotry. PZ myers or other writers at free thought blogs are a good bet. I wrote the rachel maddow show.

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

        I said it. Why the hell are you so bent on this all only suiting YOUR feelings! Is strongly dislike Rachel Maddow but I say tweet away!

        • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

          Bigotry isn’t a matter of feelings, its a matter of if a belief contributes to the oppression of groups of people or not. Thinking that its cool to call someone a cunt because they weren’t pleasing to you is misogynistic under that criteria. Sorry to burst your bubble.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            Look, I am not defending every word the man has goddamn said in his fucking decades long career. I suggested a public figure, whom I respect and admire, who is at least somewhat likely to respond with interest in our cause. Nobody’s trying to make you like him. How can you top the thread with ooh, tweet to ANYBODY and still be having this goddamn rant about ONE SUGGESTION. Will you kindly point your rage and energy at the people killing babies, not fussing over everyone not thinking the same as you? I’m not here to debate with YOU. And I notice you’re happy to come at me with all your upset, but you’ve not bothered to reply to any thread where I’ve explicitly apologized for hurting your feelings. I am here to kick ass, chew bubble gum and make geek reference jokes. And I’m all out of bubble gum.

            Edited because the galaxy note autocorrect is FROM THE DEVIL.

          • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

            I’m sure you will be tweeting westboro baptist church and the KKK since bigotry isn’t a problem when trying to get support, right? How about MRAs? They all like babies, right? You won’t be doing that any time soon because those people are scum, and since they are it doesn’t matter if they are on your side or not, you would want nothing to do with them. You just don’t like that someone you idolize said problematic things (on multiple occasions). Keep on pretending that its isolated incidents that can be explained away, its not skin off my back, although it does conflict with reality. Its really not my problem. I won’t support misogyny, I don’t care who said it or if there are other people doing other wrong things in the world, hatred of women is wrong and I will not support it under any circumstance. Thats my bottom line, and it always will be.

          • Trixie

            Oh FFS.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            What the hell is your problem? I suggested a name. I defended my suggestion, said I don’t think he’s a perfect person, never said you have to like him, didn’t spend all day looking up shit about anyone YOU suggested, and have repeatedly tried to return focus to DEAD BABYS AND KILLER MIDWIVES. Why is this still a thread? I’m out, shriek all you want, I’m done feeding you.

      • Karen in SC

        In the past, I’ve suggested the likes of Michael Moore, Nancy Grace, the members of the View. Not well received ideas but anyone we can get to join the fight is welcome as far as I’m concerned.
        PS. Maybe I’m shelterd but haven’t heard anything about bigotry, or misogyny and I didn’t even know he was atheist. Just funny…

        • toni

          Charles krauthammer’s latest book has a chapter on NCB, so he is already somewhat aware of the problem.

        • Irène Delse

          Funny, that’s true, and pro-science, but I’m afraid Penn Jillette would be more likely to ridicule women who trust homebirth midwives, which would only serve to polarize the debate and give ammunition to people who want to restrict by law how women treat use their bodies. (Remember LMS’s recent “suggestion” to treat HB mothers like mentally ill patients and send them to hospital against their will?) The problem is not profanity or politics or personal feelings here. I don’t agree with everything Safer Midwifery Utah said, but she’s right to point out that people who generally don’t respect women are likely to do more harm than good here.

      • theNormalDistribution

        Oh no oh no, not FTB. How can you dislike Penn Jillette and like PZ Meyers??? You need to read more about both of them. Seriously.

        • auntbea

          Am I missing something? This thread doesn’t make sense to me. Who was talking about Penn Jillette? And what did PZ Meyers do?

          • Jessica S.

            Down further in the comments, there’s a discussion about Penn and others, I think.

          • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

            Penn Jillette called a woman a cunt when he wasn’t pleasing enough to him, and has a myriad of other sexist incidences. I suggested that he would likely be indifferent to the plight of women (because historically he doesn’t really care unless its about his right to purchase women for sexual gratification). PZ myers is a pro-feminist blogger with a lot of influence, who has faced a lot of criticism from libertarians and MRAs (mens rights activists). If there is information I am missing please share, but so far thats my synopsis of the issues.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            *sigh* Penn Jillette is an outspoken anti-hoax, anti-woo comedian and magician. His excellent show Bullshit (along with his partner Teller) did exposes on many topics, including breastfeeding in public (pro bf), vaccine rejection (Pro vax), creationism being taught in schools (anti-creationism), and included a segment on dolphin assisted midwifery in an episode about dolphins (anti-dolphin birth). He may use profanity in a way sensitive ears don’t like – the show also did an episode on profanity – and I am not claiming he’s a saint or never sad anything I didn’t agree with. What I suggested is that WE MAYBE MIGHT TWEET AT HIM ABOUT THIS DEAD BABY. And yet all damn day it’s screaming about what a BAD BAD MEEN MAN he is. From the SAME PERSON yelling “let’s tweet ANYONE.”

            I’m so done.

          • Lena

            Look, I get that you’re a fan, but people disliking him or not being able to ignore the bad no matter how much they may like him otherwise isn’t personal against you. Chill.

          • theNormalDistribution

            PZ has a very small, very rabid group of followers, and not a lot of respect or influence in the general community. Penn, on the other hand, despite his choice of language, has a HUGE following.

            There’s not a terrible amount of skepticism going on at FTB. Groupthink. Bullying. Censorship. Yeah, there’s a lot of that. Unlike Dr. Amy, PZ and his mods delete comments and ban commenters they don’t like. And no, I’m not talking about MRA’s and awful things they say (although I wouldn’t advocate censoring them, either). I’m talking about reasonable people who are coming from a good place, making reasonable points that may not toe the party line. PZ makes gross misrepresentations of others to attract blog views and stir up controversy. Read what he (and other FTBloggers) said about Michael Shermer and what a mysogynist he is. And then find what Michael Shermer *actually* said, and what his response to the accusations was. Read what people outside of FTB thought about it. You’ll see a very different reality than the one that exists inside that little bubble.

            I have seen you jump the gun and accuse people of things like MRA and mysogynist on this blog when the accusations were absolutely not warranted. That’s exactly the kind of crap that gives PZ and FTB bad name.

            Look. This is the SkepticalOB. A lot of people here are actually skeptics.

            You said Penn called a woman a cunt because she wasn’t “pleasing enough”. I read what he said, and even If I knew nothing about his views, that would seem like a gross misrepresentation. So either you heard it second-hand and accepted it unskeptically, or you are putting your own spin on it for reasons I can’t imagine. I’m not fond of his choice of language either, but you certainly haven’t demonstrated that he’s a mysogynist.

            I don’t want to get into a flame war about our opinions on these guys. This is absolutely not the place for it. And to be frank, you are often unclear on the facts when they aren’t what you want to hear. I have no interest in engaging with that. You say you know what you’re talking about. Fine. I know when to stop banging my head against a wall.

        • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

          LOL no, I am well versed in the humanities and understand the issues at hand. Thanks for trying though.

        • Irène Delse

          Hey, FtB is not a bad suggestion actually. One of their bloggers, Avicenna aka @milliongods on Twitter, is a medical doctor and has already posted several times on the dangers of HB.

  • MrG

    To Donna Zelzer,
    On the “Midwifery Today” facebook page you (Donna) said: “..Jan posted something on her private page..”.
    However, on that same https://www.facebook.com/jan.tritten “private page” in the left column about 2/3 down under disclaimer it says: “The Jan Tritten Facebook profile is presented by Midwifery Today, Inc. (“MT”). So NOT so private or? Why do you want us to believe it was jan’s “private” page when in fact it was a “Midwifery Today” page?

    • Trixie

      Here’s the screenshot of the Doctor ‘s comment.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Looks like we may be getting closer to finding the primary midwife:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10203408613644705&id=1493056312

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      This makes no sense at all. If the situation were so dire when the first BPP was done that the OB couldn’t have saved the baby then agreeing to a repeat BPP in 24 hours was NOT the right move at all. Ok, if the woman who was pregnant insists that she would not, under any circumstances, agree to go to the hospital then fine, there’s nothing else the provider can do but document it. But if that were true, then how did the provider’s saying that they “had no choice any longer” the next day convince them to go in? Either the provider did not give the parents adequate information on day 1 or they were coerced on day 2. Maybe she misjudged how serious things were on the first day and didn’t push hard enough for induction and/or c-section then and there. That could happen and would even be vaguely defensible. But only if she is willing to say, “I made a mistake.” Also, mec aspiration does NOT have a 100% mortality. It’s dangerous, but, no, I don’t believe an OB saying that it is an inevitable death.

      • anon13

        I don’t even care about these details. I want to know what was done at 40 weeks and 41 weeks!!!!!!!! That was the time to act.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Indeed. Nothing good happens after 40 weeks. Waiting 41 weeks to try to increase the odds of a spontaneous vaginal delivery, ok. But no delivery by 42 weeks is, in my understanding, more or less an absolute indication to induce or section.

          • Meredith

            “Nothing good happens after 40 weeks.” Funny you should phrase it like that — my OB told me that it was fine to go to 41 weeks as long as I got tests done, but he said, and I quote: “No good will come of it.”

      • Meredith

        Agreed, this story doesn’t wash. The midwife had the power to tell the parents “they had no choice any longer” but waited until the situation was beyond an emergency to exercise that power?

        And Jan Tritten legitimized the parents’ refusal to wait (it was the parents’ refusal; the midwife in attendance had nothing to do with it? Sure, whatever, I’ll buy this fairy tale for the sake of argument) by doing something other than immediately replying to the attending midwife, “The only possible response I can give you is to take your patient to the hospital immediately”?

        There is no way to spin this situation into a win. Anybody who tries ends up looking foolish, to say the least.

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

      But of course the “doctor said it would have happened there too” gets trotted out
      How many days later? Pathetic.

    • Jessica S.

      As has been pointed out by many other astute minds here, still doesn’t excuse all the “recommendations” by “midwives” who will undoubtedly recreate this nightmare if ever given the chance. B/c being a lay “midwife” means never having to learn anything. Ever.

    • Trixie

      Haha I bet she didn’t realize that was a public thread. Whoopsy daisy.

    • Squillo

      That must be why she sent a note to Jan Tritten asking for help convincing the mom to accept induction/c-section.

      Oh, wait…

    • Squillo

      I wonder what would have happened if Tritten had written back that she agreed with the doc that it was an emergency and the baby needed to get out ASAP?

      So the mother didn’t want to hear “dead baby” scenarios? It’s the hcp’s JOB to say things a client/patient might not want to hear, like, “it’s malignant,” or “your baby might die.”

    • Trixie

      Christy M. Collins is a CPM in Las Vegas. http://www.homesweetbirth.com/about.php

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

        What are midwife autonomy laws in Nevada? She’s seems to have a LOT of inside info.

        • Trixie

          As near as I can tell, Nevada allows them to practice without oversight. Her buddy on that thread Laura is a CPM in Utah, and it seems they may have been in Las Vegas together this weekend.

          • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

            The thing is that there was a neonatal CPR class in vegas recently, and that seems to be why she went. In theory anyone at that class could be the midwife. I haven’t been successful at finding out who went, the registration isn’t a FB event or anything like that. There are pictures of attendees but that’s it.

          • Trixie

            For all we know, that’s why Jan Tritten was away from her computer for a few days.

      • onandoff

        She was also charged with practicing without a license in 2011 in CA. She’s a “Sister in Chains”. Poor thing.

        • onandoff

          practicing medicine, that is. I really need a Disqus account.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        I just asked her on the Home Sweet Birth Facebook page.

        • Trixie

          It would be worth posting to Laura Hopper’s page too. https://m.facebook.com/alternativebirthservices

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          In only 11 minutes she not only deleted my question, but deleted the entire area where people could ask her questions. That seems rather suspicious.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            I hope she owns a copy of From Calling to Courtroom…

      • Rabbit

        Did you see the link she shared yesterday? A sweet little poem about how baby’s aren’t library books or beef stew, they won’t overcook, and there’s no cause to worry. Hmmmm

        http://www.drmomma.org/2014/02/pregnant-pause-my-babys-not-overdue.html?m=1

        • Trixie

          No, I missed that. Wow, that takes some serious balls.

        • Pissed

          Sure, babies aren’t library books, but placenta’s aren’t diamonds. Placentas are not forever, people! Placentas are the body’s Ikea furniture, it does a great job, but given enough time it will fall apart.

          • Pissed

            dang it, placentas plural, not possessive (sigh)

        • thankfulmom

          She posted that after knowing a baby at 42 weeks
          died? I would think an infant’s death would leave an impression, apparently not. So mind boggling these wannabe professionals don’t even want to learn.

      • An Actual Attorney

        Did you see the “testimonial” about the HBAC she did? Conceived 3 months after the CS. Gah!

    • MaineJen

      I call BULL. A c section 24 hours earlier would have made all the difference.

    • Trixie

      Let’s hope Laura Hopper wasn’t attending any births last weekend. She’s caring for a child with an active chicken pox infection. https://m.facebook.com/hopper.laura

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        In a remarkable coincidence, she was in Las Vegas last weekend attending a course (according to her Facebook page).

        • Trixie

          I suppose it’s possible that they both were at the course with a third person who was the midwife in question. But they clearly both know the story first- or second-hand.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Then why delete not only the question, but the ability of anyone to question her?

          • Trixie

            Because Dr Amy is scaaaaary and meeeen?

          • Mishimoo

            As we all know, anyone that disagrees with them automatically becomes Dr Amy. Perhaps they think Dr. Amy to be a ‘Smith’ from The Matrix or a Borg Queen.

          • anion

            Resistance is futile.

          • Mishimoo

            “We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us.”
            That sounds more like the NCB Movement, come to think of it.

      • Dr Kitty

        As long as the child wasn’t at any births and she washed her hands after caring for the child it is extremely unlikely she could have transmitted varicella to anyone. You quarantine the patient, not their carers.

        Varicella is like any other virus- good hygiene will prevent transmission, and people who aren’t infected aren’t shedding viruses.

        If SHE had chicken pox or shingles herself, then it is a different story.

    • anion

      What’s awesome (in a sick and tragic and horrifying way) there is Christy M. Collins posting (please forgive my ranty caps. I seriously cannot help myself):

      “That’s the reason the midwife has[sic] posted on Jan’s wall btw. The parents declined induction the day before, but wanted the parents to hear what other professionals had to say because the parents didn’t want to go off of a ‘dead baby flag’ by a peri.”

      Leaving aside the poor grammar, missing subject, and punctuation–Jesus, can any of these women use written English language to do anything other than humiliate themselves (I know, they do so in more ways than one, don’t they)?–this is incredible.

      The midwife posted on Jan’s wall so the parents could hear what “OTHER PROFESSIONALS” had to say. Other PROFESSIONALS!!! Hahahaha! And those “professionals” said things like “Stevia!” and “Find a massage therapist who likes midwives!” and “Where does the amniotic fluid GO??” I’m sorry, but how goddamn dumb do you have to be before any of that looks remotely *professional* to you?

      Especially when there was presumably a perinatologist at the hospital trying to wave a “dead baby flag.” So…an actual fucking professional, a perinatologist with years of higher education and experience, said “This baby could die right away immediately,” and your response was to discount this as paranoid nonsense and then go online to see what a bunch of vagina-drunk morons think, because they’re “professionals?” And tell the parents you were doing that? I bet with phrasing like, “They’re just worried about lawsuits and liability, they don’t understand how women’s bodies really work. I’m going to do some research on this myself.”

      So an *actual* professional doctor (who sounds like someone who happened to be on shift when they showed up at the local hospital, and not remotely like the PCP as was claimed earlier) told these parents their baby could die, and instead of concurring and urging the mother to induce, you decided, “Well, doctors don’t know anything, I’m going to ask some REEL LYVE PROFESHUNULS on Facebook, because they’ll tell us the nonsense we want to hear!”

      And that’s exactly what you did. Rather than agreeing with the peri, accepting his or her diagnosis as correct and urging the mother to accept it, supporting the mother in agreeing to be induced/convincing her to be induced, or even just admitting you didn’t know what the fuck you were talking about and deferring to the person who obviously did…you trotted off to the Crackpot Death Wish convention to hear what you wanted to hear, because you honestly think you know better than someone with years and years of real education–education that doesn’t include fucking *stevia* or water that once came sort of near some plant that was once thought to help an imbalance of the Black Humour–who has probably cared for more babies and seen more babies born in the last two months than you will ever see in your entire baby-murdering lifetime.

      In other words, and I cannot stress this enough: YOU COMPLETELY FAILED IN YOUR DUTY OF CARE. YOU SAT AROUND WITH YOUR THUMB UP YOUR BUTT WHILE A BABY DIED AND REFUSED TO HELP AN ACTUAL PROFESSIONAL SAVE IT. YOU NEGLECTED TO PROPERLY ADVISE THE MOTHER IN ANY WAY, DESPITE CLAIMING EXPERTISE (AND, PRESUMABLY, CHARGING FOR IT). THIS BABY’S DEATH IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND THERE IS BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.

      You can try to whitewash it or backpedal all you want, but even your justifications and backpedals only show more clearly that you have absolutely no business providing any sort of care for pregnant women beyond, “Can I carry those bags to your car for you?”, and that your ass ought to be in prison.

      • Trixie

        I think the worst part is how they’ve got the mother thinking that the reason she held out against going to the hospital was so she could “have more time with the baby.” As if the baby would have inevitably been born dead if it had been delivered days earlier.

        • anion

          Yep. And doesn’t the “yesterday still would have been too late,” statement, if it was actually made, sound to you a lot less like, “Aw, it’s not your fault, Midwife Angelpants Birth Expert, you were indeed ON TOP OF THIS SITUATION,” and a lot more like, “Why TF did you let this woman go so far postdates, especially without doing any US or testing until YESTERDAY, you arrogant, irresponsible idiot?”

    • Melissa

      Why was the midwife doing the fht instead of the mystery primary ob that Jan mentioned before? I’ve never had a BPP, but I would imagine that if the ob actually existed then he’d be performing it. This story makes it sounds the someone else did the bpp and then just for funsies the midwife did FHT and detected something. Something that wasn’t detected on the BPP which would have been looking at fetal heart rate.

      Also, why would they be doing the test in the hospital instead of at the mystery primary ob’s office? It’s just all pretty fishy.

      • mollybl

        I had a BPP done. It was performed by a stenographer at my local hospital, not by my primary OB and not in her office. I’m not saying this story isn’t fishy as hell . . . .

    • auntbea

      She was so ON TOP OF THE SITUATION that she took time out from being ON TOP OF THE SITUATION to ask that Jan Tritten post publicly about the birth and how ON TOP OF THE SITUATION she was.

  • http://babyandbump.momtastic.com/wtt-journals/1424393-because-journaling-message-board-cheaper-than-therapy.html Proserpina

    MOSW?!? has used my submissions of things said to me by doctors and nurses numerous times. Got a very deserving OB comment that just got posted today.

    So, I hope they’ll be using these 10 submissions that I just sent in. You’re welcome.

    ————————

    “What would you do? … absolutely zero fluid seen … 42.2″

    ~ Homebirth midwife while crowd-sourcing medical advice
    concerning a post-term anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. 8 hours
    later, the same midwife reported that the baby had died.

    “Fluid level readings can [be], and often are highly
    inaccurate at this point”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was
    reported less than 8 hours later.

    “If baby is happy, get [the mother] to take precautions
    against infection and wait.”

    ~ CNM when asked for advice concerning a post-term (42 + 2)
    anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was reported
    less than 8 hours later.

    “Try a very good acupuncturist and midwife-friendly massage
    therapist and refer in a day or 2.”

    ~ Midwifery professor when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was
    reported less than 8 hours later.

    “I would respect leaving things alone, and just because you
    cannot ‘see’ fluid does not mean there is none.”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was
    reported less than 8 hours later.

    “Cell salts.”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for
    advice concerning a post-term (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on
    Facebook. The baby’s death was reported less than 8 hours later.

    “Leave her be … She’ll go into labor when it’s time.”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was
    reported less than 8 hours later.

    “The body most likely will know to go slow and gentle, but
    introducing artificial stimulation can cause a myriad of issues
    including death … She says the baby is fine … so why the rush and
    stress of worrying right now?”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when
    asked for advice concerning a post-term (42 + 2) anhydramnios
    pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was reported less than 8
    hours later.

    “Trust mom’s instincts.”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The mother felt
    everything was fine and wanted to wait. The baby’s death was reported
    less than 8 hours later.

    “There has to be some water or
    her [body] would get baby out.”

    ~ Homebirth midwife when asked for advice concerning a post-term
    (42 + 2) anhydramnios pregnancy on Facebook. The baby’s death was
    reported less than 8 hours later.

  • MLE

    If we don’t community, our community will community community. Ok got it, let’s just forget this ever happened.

  • YogaMathMelon

    Jan, lies make baby Jesus cry.

  • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

    Might I suggest some tweets for @pennjillette? He and Teller did include “Dolphin Midwifery” in an episode of Bullshit before it was cancelled. Edited to un – autocorrect

    • toni

      Good suggestion. He replies to almost everyone who contacts him it seems.

      • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

        Hes a fucking misogynistic tool though. He is a free market libertarian too (to the extent that he thinks *roads* should be privatized), so I have a suspicion that they would spin it as a consumer freedom issue. People like that often think that people who were scammed deserved what they got, all while enjoying poking fun at the people who scam others.

        • toni

          He’d probably spurn the idea of banning CPMs but would be appalled by their behaviour and would want to expose their deceptions (he’s said very harsh things about chiropractors, homeopaths etc). He has a big heart I’ve never seen any evidence that he enjoys seeing people get conned or that he thinks they deserve it.

          • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah

            Then why did he say that all religious people are ‘retarded’?

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            Because that is his opinion and totally irrelevant to weather or not he might be interested in using his CONSIDERABLE platform to raise awareness of the midwife manslaughterers. Why is it so horrific that I suggested tweeting at a public personality who is at least somewhat likely to give a shit?

          • staceyjw

            Kumquat- C’mon, don’t you know that if someone doesn’t agree 100% with everything we personally believe, they cannot be an ally? If someone doesn’t act in the exact way we think they ought to, in every situation, then they cannot be of any use! /snark

            Shame ON- YOU can wait for the perfect, totally sympathetic, sweet, person to do an expose on HB CPMs. Kumquat and I will take our chances on anyone that is well known, that just might care, that has followers that might be interested- so long asd they don’t out do the Westoboro Baptist Cnhurch with their antics.

            I would also like to see a bunch of us write to PZ Meyers, he HAS tackled HB before (and thinks its horrible), but not in depth. I think he would be one of the very best people out there as far as raising awareness in the atheist/skeptic communities. He is passionatlety pro woman, and a firebrand.

            He doesn’t have the draw or fame of Penn, but its still worth trying. Same for Matt D, and even Friendly Atheist. We need to send them a bunch of letters and tweets, etc, and follow up with a concise overview.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            I have never said we should NOT tweet at ANYONE. The more people who know the better.

          • Lena

            Jesus Fucking Christ, no one said it’s horrific, they just stated why they disliked him after you brought him up. I wasn’t aware we’re taking votes on who to contact. Go ahead and do it yourself. Those who don’t want to…won’t. The end.

          • toni

            Ha, well I don’t know I guess he’s not one to varnish his opinion. I am religious so I would vehemently disagree with him there but his views on religion aren’t that relevant to the topic at hand, are they? He’s one of few people in showbusiness who is not afraid to say something that could risk their popularity

          • staceyjw

            For the same reason that Dr Amy says caustic things…. people pay attention!

            (and I loathe the use of the word |retarded as a slur, and don’t feel that religious people are insulting. This does not mean he is wrong about other things. Opinions are not facts. )

        • Trixie

          I’ve never gotten that impression from him. I think he’s deeply incensed when people scam others. Whether or not he would ban it, he’d want the correct information out there.

        • Lena

          He’s also ok with creationism taught in schools. He agrees it’s stupid, but it won’t have any negative long-term effects because there are enough educated people to make up for the stupid.

          He said that on Real Time with Bill Maher, if you want to look it up.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            He did an entire episode on Bullshit. I’ve seen that Bill Mar (who IS a misogynist ass) and he only thinks it doesn’t hurt long term because he believes people are smarter than religion. He most certainly is NOT ok with it.

          • Lena

            Eh, I have zero patience for people who should know better believing that people are generally smart. And on Maher’s (who, yes, is absolutely a misogynist asshole) show, he was downright contemptuous of people against teaching creationism in school. He’s a libertarian, which says a whole lot about him, right there.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            He agrees it’s stupid, but it won’t have any negative long-term effects
            because there are enough educated people to make up for the stupid

            Disagree. Strongly. It matters immensely to the children being miseducated and reminds me of the argument by NCBs that it’s ok if a few babies die because enough to propagate the species survive.

          • Lena

            I agree, Creationism is one of my hot buttons. That was Jillette’s idea. He’s a libertarian, so he’s good at “logically” defending all sorts of bullshit.

        • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

          Dude. Don’t be like that. He’s one of the least misogynistic men in the skeptic/atheist community. I’m very familiar with his body of work and this doesn’t fit it AT ALL.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I wouldn’t say that. I don’t think that he is a misogynist but there are a bunch of actively feminist dudes in the skeptic/atheist community. PZ Myers and Matt Dillahunty being the first that come to mind. Orac has also come to the defense of the ladies in the community as well.

          • http://safermidwiferyutah.wordpress.com/ Safer Midwifery Utah
          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            So we shouldn’t even ATTEMPT to draw the attention. Of a VERY well known voice for skepticism. Because patriarchy.

            Knock it off already, we’re trying to raise awareness. That includes people you don’t like.

          • staceyjw

            Again, we ALREADY share space here with people that have views just as radically different as our own. But none of us are famous.

            I am pretty sure my views on prostitution and sex work are offensive to many, but that does not make me any less able to advocate for safer MWery.

            I would love there to be no misogyny at all, but we live in patriarchy, and must do the best we can with what we have.

        • staceyjw

          So this means we can’t ask one of the best known skeptic debunkers to take on HB Mws? Because he MIGHT not think the way we do about it, or because we don’t agree with his unrelated views?
          Really?

          I know for a fact that many of the people commenting on this blog (and in FB groups), disagree on some pretty serious topics. I know several that are very anti choice, vote GOP, are fundamentalist in their religion, etc. While we disagree vehemantly on these things, we come together for HB safety- because IT MATTERS enough to put aside our other disagreements.

          Maybe he would do an awesome take down, maybe not. Either way, I think its worth a try. My experience with this type of skeptic is that they are just not interested in things that are out of their immediate scope of interest, and birth is generally in that category. Once its in front of them, they will attack it.
          Getting it in front of them is the first step.

        • theNormalDistribution

          He’s not a misogynist. And his libertarianism is largely intellectual. He actually thinks that people are good and they would do good shit regardless of whether or not we force them to. He doesn’t think that libertarianism would solve our problems. He just wants a world where we are all free to do whatever we want, and because he just wants to be good to people, he thinks that everyone would just be good to eachother. It’s stupid but it’s well-meaning. He cares about people and he has a huge audience.

    • staceyjw

      YES, I think that is a great idea. WHy not? I can see him finding the fake MWs totally unethical and scandelously dangerous. This is right up his alley. I would LOVE to see hinm do a take down of MANA. I am grinning just thinking about it.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    From Jan Tritten’s Facebook page:

    • Trixie

      They promptly accused Cara Albany Doula of being an SOB “troll.”

      • Anj Fabian

        It’s the worst insult they can think of.

    • anion

      “…falling to the misleading & construances, the chaos and gauntlet throws that strategists are engaging.”

      What? That’s some badly made word salad, there. Luckily I can read Illiterate, so I get what she’s throwing out there, but good lord.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    It seems to me that the homebirth community is in full-on “refuse to discuss it and hope it goes away mode.” One of the goals we should set for ourselves is to get homebirth bloggers to discuss this situation on their own blogs, Facebook pages and message boards. That would blow the situation wide open, since Jan Tritten’s behavior and the response of professional homebirth advocates are both completely indefensible.

    • Karen in SC

      Start with this tragedy, then add a link to the the new statistical analysis.

  • Squillo

    The midwife who wrote to her privately was working with a physician…the midwife was looking for additional information but was not the one making the final decisions.

    Right. The midwife was looking for “additional information” to contradict the physician’s recommendation. The one making the “final decisions” was, of course, the mother, who, we’ve already been told, was comfortable waiting. Maybe because she’d heard advice like the crap on Tritten’s Facebook page?

    Then someone lost their nerve. Two BPPs and palpation indicated “absolutely no fluid,” but when the midwife noticed that the FHR was “a little slow” they decided to go in and, once in hospital the mother (who, remember, previously felt that everything was okay despite the BPPs) consented to what was possibly and emergency c-section.

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

      They decided to go into the hospital where the mother ALREADY WAS? Really?

      • Squillo

        To be fair, they only said that the mother was under the care of a physician, not in the hospital. And I’m sure the doc just said, “Sure. Go on home. Totally fine to wait and see what happens.”

        • MaineJen

          On the contrary…I’m sure the doc (if there was one) would have said “I advise induction or C section now,” and the midwife was looking for justification to ignore his/her recommendation.

  • Squillo

    Deelah’s comment is yet another demonstration that it’s always, always about the midwife (or “birth worker”) and her rights and feelings. Mothers are just props and babies are side-effects.

  • Mel

    That’s one of the most incoherent written statements I’ve ever seen, Cole Deelah…..

    Let’s translate:
    When we hold irresponsible health care providers responsible, we destroy the sense of community around all health care providers. If we destroy the bad workers, women won’t take any of us seriously.

    Seriously? I’ve worked with two truly poor teachers – not abusive, nothing illegal – but people who should not be in a classroom teaching. Working with incompetent people is a time and energy drain, especially when the people show no interest in improving. The day each of those teachers left teaching was a huge relief to the rest of the group. If midwives really care about maternal and fetal health, they should be self-policing AND working with other authorities to drive sub-par workers out.

    I realized as I was writing this I was assuming Cole Deelah was writing as a competent person. The statement actually makes more sense if the writing IS a crappy provider. In that case, you need to deflect the obvious conclusion that YOU are the problem.

    • Meredith

      And the very incoherence of the writing (quite apart from its content, whatever that may be) convinces me that the writer is probably not very competent at anything.

      • AllieFoyle

        Not that it’s the most important issue, but why do so many of them write like that? I read the words; they appear to be english…and yet, I have no idea what they mean all together.

        • Meredith

          It reminds me of what George Orwell was talking about in his essay “Politics and the English Language.” Confused thinking leads to confused writing, which reinforces the confused thinking.

          • AllieFoyle

            I guess it only makes sense that there would be different ways of thinking to go with different ways of knowing.

        • Anj Fabian

          NPR did a series called
          This I Believe

          Contributors wrote essays on the theme. I listened to some of them. It’s possible to believe something and explain why you believe it without immediately resorting to circular reasoning.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’ve said it many times, you would think that a legitimate profession would WANT to get rid of crappy practitioners. My business sure does, because people who do a bad job harm the profession.

      The problem is, I suspect, that they know damn well if they start criticizing others, that people will start looking toward them, and they know they can’t hold up to scrutiny, either. Deep down, they know they what they are doing won’t hold up, so best not open that can of worms where we start examining practices.

      • Squillo

        They’ve painted themselves into a corner. If they criticize one crappy midwife for her disastrous decisions, they admit that there are reasonable limits to their practice. It’s very, very clear that they aren’t willing to accept any limits whatsoever.

      • no longer drinking the koolaid

        Or they worry that being the one to speak out will get them marginalized. And they have seen what happens to others who question the group think.

      • Lost in Suburbia

        A legitimate business profession is mostly concerned about making money.
        I was recently hearing about a malpractice case against a doctor who worked for a small hospital. Doc has been there for 15 years. Turns out Doc lied about credentials, and has been and is still continuing to do surgeries that are seriously harming people. Still hasn’t been fired, Still is working for the hospital, in spite of multiple malpractice suits. I know that surgery and hospital service are legitimate, and yet the state med board isn’t doing anything, nor is the hospital. Small hospital, hard to get anyone to be there, so it’s really easy to just gloss over checking references, or firing a doc who “services” they can’t easily replace.

        So I’m really cautious about the argument that legit professionals want all the crooks out. Just makes it easier for legit people to say, “hey, this example is why you should trust ME! I have XYZ experience/training/credentials!” Which is also what’s happening all over the closed-doors midwifery groups, no doubt.

  • Meredith

    And a question: Is it normal for the editor-in-chief of a trade journal to also be its owner? That seems like a huge conflict of interest.

    • Anj Fabian

      L’etat, c’est moi!

      • Meredith

        “Apres moi, le deluge!” says the home birth midwife as she drives off, leaving a woman with post-partum hemorrhage.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Not really. When someone creates a journal, they will usually take the editor position at least for a while. Although anyone and their brother can create their own journal at any point (I get offers to do it all the time), this has been around for a while so is probably a result of her effort.

      That being said, a legitimate trade journal will also have an editorial board that has the authority to make editorial decisions, and to address issues with the editor. If they have any legitimacy, the editorial board would be weighing in.

      • Meredith

        Thanks for the clarification. It seems pretty clear that no one at Midwifery Today has either the power or interest to rein Jan in. Isn’t it telling that Midwifery Today’s snarky little reply (“Since Jan is the owner that’s hardly likely”) just reveals even further how divorced from ethical standards the midwife community is?

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          My take is that they just see it as Jan’s magazine. Given that it’s not a profession grounded in oversight, I’m not surprised that they don’t bother.

          • Meredith

            Oh, I’m not surprised either… siiiigh.

          • Meredith

            It seems like MT is trying to have their cake and eat it too (French absolute monarchy sure is coming up a lot in this thread). Jan will remain editor-in-chief because it’s her magazine! Comments regarding Jan will be deleted because that was Jan’s private affair, nothing to do with MT!

            Yeah, I’m not surprised, I’m just fascinated at what the mental gymnastics reveal.

          • LibrarianSarah

            “French absolute monarchy sure is coming up a lot in this thread”

            Do you hear the people sing?
            Singing the songs of angry men
            It is the music of the people
            Who won’t let you hide a baby death again

          • Anj Fabian

            ZDoggMD did a parody of one Les Miserables song.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Oh I must have missed it. Was it “Do you hear the people sing?” because that is my favorite.

  • Meredith

    Notice how Midwifery Today states that this catastrophe was posted on Jan’s “private profile,” as if the actions of Midwifery Today’s editor-in-chief in relation to home birth were somehow irrelevant to the journal.

    • Trixie

      Yeah. Pro tip, Jan: if something is private, don’t put it on your public page on the internet for the entire world to see.