What every anti-vaccine parent gets wrong about vaccines

Right and Wrong Decision Road Sign Isolated

On Saturday I wrote about the fact that the anti-vaccine movement has never been about children, and it hasn’t really been about vaccines. It’s about privileged parents and how they wish to view themselves, specifically as defying authority and empowered by self-education. This is why efforts to educate anti-vax parents about the science of immunology has been such a spectacular failure. It is not, and has never been, about the science.

That does not mean that anti-vaccine parents understand the science behind vaccines. They emphatically do not, and it is this lack of understanding that undergirds most of their philosophical claims.

As a threshhold matter, if you ever want to stop anti-vaccine parents in their tracks, ask them to explain how vaccines work. They can’t do it!

I don’t mean simply how vaccines lead to immunity. That’s relatively straightforward in any case. Vaccine stimulate the production of antibodies. Antibodies are proteins that recognize specific bacteria or viruses and bind to them, thereby signaling to other immune cells that they are targets for swift neutralization. Each antibody binds to a specific site on a specific bacteria or virus.

Everyone with an intact immune system makes antibodies. We can make them in response to the disease or we can make them in response to the vaccine. The difference is that the disease can kill us before we make enough antibodies to kill it. Vaccines give us a huge head start. We make antibodies to the specific virus or bacterium after being exposed to an inactivated part of (or whole) virus or bacterium. Then if and when we are attacked by the pathogen, we ramp up production of antibodies before the virus or bacteria can multiply enough to kill us.

That’s how vaccines lead to antibodies, but that’s NOT how vaccines work to protect everyone’s health.

The way vaccines work to protect health is by making it impossible for pathogens to jump from person to person.

Even the best vaccines are not 100% effective, and we can’t vaccinate 100% of the population. For example, babies can’t be vaccinated for specific diseases until they can mount the appropriate antibody response. Immuno-compromised people may not be able to mount an immune response at all.

In other words, if vaccines needed to be 100% effective to work, they wouldn’t work in the real world.

Instead, vaccines work by dramatically reducing the chance that an infected person will encounter an unprotected person. As I explained last week in Anti-vaxxers, the real welfare queens:

Imagine that little Ainsley comes in close contact with 10 children per day. Now imagine that Ainsley develops diphtheria. Who is likely to catch diphtheria from Ainsley? If 99% of children are vaccinated and the vaccine is 95% effective, the odds are low that any of the 10 children she comes in contract with could get diphtheria. Thus, the outbreak of diphtheria ends with Ainsley (though it may end poor Ainsley’s life).

Now imagine that only 50% of children are vaccinated against diphtheria. That means that half the children are likely to be susceptible, and therefore diphtheria is almost certain to be transmitted. And since the children who catch diphtheria from Ainsley are going to expose additional children who aren’t vaccinated, the disease begins to spread like wild fire.

In other words, in 2015 if Ainsley’s mother doesn’t vaccinate her against diphtheria and she never gets diphtheria, it’s NOT because she was breastfed, eats organic food and has a strong immune system. It’s because herd immunity ensures that she’s never exposed to diphtheria.

When parents refuse to vaccinate their children, herd immunity is disrupted and deadly diseases can spread.

This cartoon on the awesome Facebook page of Refutations to Anti-vax Memes makes it easier to understand the issue.

Vaccination umbrellas

The people holding the umbrellas are everyone who has been vaccinated (or has had the actual disease and survived). You can see that there’s room for more than the umbrella holders under the umbrella, just as vaccinating everyone who can be vaccinated protects those who can’t be vaccinated.

You can also see a person announcing that he doesn’t feel any rain so there’s no need for an umbrella. That’s just like the anti-vax parents claiming that they’ve never seen a person suffering from a vaccine preventable disease so there’s no need for vaccination.

You can also see that the belief that the rain has stopped is wrong, just as the belief that vaccine preventable disease are no longer a threat is also wrong.

Now imagine that half the people holding the umbrellas closed them and dropped them. A lot of people would get wet, not just those who aren’t holding umbrellas, but also those who have malfunctioning umbrellas. That’s what happens when herd immunity is compromised. Both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated are threatened (although the threat to the vaccinated is much smaller than the threat to the unvaccinated).

It’s easy to see how refusing to vaccinate hurts everyone, not just the children who aren’t vaccinated.

It’s also easy to see how the anti-vax parents whining that there’s no need for vaccinations are clueless. They don’t understand that they are standing under the umbrellas. So not only are anti-vaccine parents often wrong about the science of vaccines, their lack of understanding undermines their philosophical arguments supporting the refusal to vaccinate.

The primary philosophical argument deployed by anti-vaccine parents to defend their decision not to vaccinate is predicated on the scientific falsehood that vaccines work by being 100% effective and therefore, the only children threatened by their failure to vaccinate are their children.

But that’s not how vaccines protect public health. They work by dramatically reducing the chances that a vaccine preventable illness can travel through a population.

So when you refuse to vaccinate your own children, you aren’t just hurting them; you’re hurting many others.

  • fiftyfifty1

    OT: I like that these immunization posts have brought in new readers. Now I hope they will stick around for when the pseudoscience debunking goes back to “women’s topics.” Come for the immunizations, stay for the vaginas, so to speak.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      My kind of place…

      • dr_sn0w

        Hi. What does BOFA mean, please? Somebody called me that recently and I haven’t the slightest…

        (I’m pretending to be affiliated with the twitter acct although I have no connection whatsoever, just like the guy I keep receiving tons of emails for but I’m in a totally dif country as him – that doesn’t make me the same person, obviously). Thx.

    • Nick Sanders

      I plan on hanging around at least for a while, although I don’t know anything about birth, so I’ll let other people with actual knowledge of the topic speak on that.

      • yugaya

        You know quack when you see it, and you know what legit science looks like, that’s all you need to know to get along just fine.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I didn’t know as much when I got here, although we had two kids and so I was familiar with the process.

        However, the one thing that I learned that I was amazed to discover, and that makes everything that goes on here make more sense, is that there are two types of midwives in the US. The CNM is a nurse midwife, and these have nursing background. The other is a CPM, which is a completely made up certification with almost no regulations or requirements. Heck, it wasn’t until only a couple years ago that it required a high school diploma. Needless to say, CPMs do not work in hospitals, because they have nowhere near legitimate medical training.

        When I learned about that, I realized that this childbirth issue is serious, because you have some seriously dangerous crap going on.

        And then I stayed for the vaginas…

        (you know, that doesn’t sound near as appropriate when I say it as when fiftyfifty1 says it)

  • Lindaxox

    http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/why-is-the-mainstream-media-ignoring-measles-vaccine-fraud-cases/

    Of all the people in this debate these 3 have first hand information, not the Drs and certainly not the TV personalities.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Can you explain to us how vaccines work to protect public health?

  • Lindaxox

    I don’t think you understand the situation at all…

    • Nick Sanders

      Then please, explain it.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I can:
        See, their kids are SPECIAL and PURE, and not like our dirty commoners.

        • Lindaxox

          How stupid!

          • Nick Sanders

            Still waiting on that explanation.

    • Nick Sanders

      Still waiting.

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m beginning to think you’re never going to explain anything.

  • Mrs Renard

    “It’s about privileged parents and how they wish to view themselves, specifically as defying authority and empowered by self-education.”

    I would say the are privileged parents that wish to view themselves as enviromentalist/sustainable/natural types; almost a cult of the “pure”. The movement is essentially a twisted offshoot of enviromentalism and anti-corporatism as opposed to a stubborn defiance of authority (or misguided libertarian individualism for that matter). They seem to be clustered around very, very liberal places like the Bay Area. They are the organic/sugary beverages are evil/noGMO prius drivers…..

    Anti-vaxxers are the anti-science group on the left analogous to the anti-science global warming deniers on the right.

    • Gregg Braddoch

      “Anti-vaxxers are the anti-science group on the left analogous to the anti-science global warming deniers on the right.”

      Which is why you and Amy are smarter than all of them – suggesting that the same types of studies that are used to say acupuncture, astrology, telepathy, and other pseudoscience “work” to suggest that vaccines work, right? (Studies that do not use Double-Blind versus placebo).

      • Nick Sanders

        You are seriously talking out of your ass.

        • Gregg Braddoch
          • Nick Sanders

            The two are not comparable, given that the vaccine studies are actually rigorous and legit. Hell, you could ask the person who writes Science-Based Medicine:

            http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-work-period/

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “The two are not comparable, given that the vaccine studies are actually rigorous and legit. ”

            Ironically though you say “rigorous and legit” while ignoring that they don’t use placebo – which is precisely how acupuncture has studies saying it is effective. I wouldn’t call it “rigorous” if they lower the standard for vaccines below that which scientists expect from alternative therapies such as acupuncture – Seems VERY “legit”.

            Your comment has been upvoted for comedic value.

          • Nick Sanders

            Placebo-controll is not a magical be-all, end-all to testing. Please stop with the cargo cult science.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, yeah you’re right, testing things to see whether they make a difference in a person who has said drug/vaccine against the results of people without said drug/vaccine is just a fairy tale – it was never done because there are good reasons to do so. Seems legit.

            I can’t help people who are so steeped in anti-science dogma like yourself, so have a good life Mr. Sanders.

            Your comment upvoted for comedic value.

          • Nick Sanders

            How many times does it have to be explained to you that once a standard is established to work better than a placebo, testing can, and should from an ethical standpoint, be done against that rather than a placebo?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “How many times does it have to be explained to you that once a standard is established to work better than a placebo, testing can, and should from an ethical standpoint, be done against that rather than a placebo?”

            How many times do I have to tell you: This is BAD SCIENCE. Whether it is “ethical” according to your moral value system is subjective, but whatever your excuse it does not OBJECTIVELY prove the efficacy of the thing tested without testing against placebo. A prime reason for this is that placebo cannot be eliminated from ANY testing – it is always a factor – without a placebo group, you cannot say that the results are that a vaccine is safe and effective, because you have not controlled for the placebo variable.

          • Young CC Prof

            If x is greater than y, and y is greater than z, then x is greater than z.

            One of the oldest math books in the world starts off with this statement, and it’s been accepted ever since. Your absolutist armchair approach to science is irrelevant.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, yeah, lets conflate mathematics with efficacy studies, and assume constants where there aren’t any to try and salvage your backwards view of science. Seems legit.

          • Roadstergal

            We do testing of cancer drugs vs standard of care rather than vs placebo. I guess we just don’t understand science. :p

          • Who?

            A flounce, but he couldn’t stick it.

            Typical.

  • Gregg Braddoch

    Sorry Amy, but all your bluster about self-important parents is just that – bluster.

    Without a double-blind study that uses placebo, then the ‘science’ that backs up vaccines is no better than the ‘scientific studies’ that have shown positive results for Acupuncture, Astrology, and Telepathy – Essentially this line of reasoning makes every illusionist an actual practitioner of magick (according to your accepted view of ‘science’).

    “Vaccines work – We can’t test them versus placebo to show that they work, because this would be unethical since they work.” Sophistry and Circular Reason FTW!

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      It’s over, Gregg. Your side lost …. spectacularly! It’s time to acknowledge your mistake and learn from it.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        Yay Sophistry. You are fun. Sling some more of that “I win! You lose! NEENER NEENER” at me in place of real science again.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        Upvoted for comedic value.

    • Nick Sanders

      Except the earliest vaccines were tested against placebos. And they worked New vaccines since then have been tested against the best standard of care, i.e. those vaccines. We do the same thing with many, many other drugs, because having nothing at all is dangerous. Suppose for example there was a new anti-seizure medicine. Would you rather the control group got a placebo, or a medicine known to work at a specific level of efficacy and risk?

      • Gregg Braddoch

        “And they worked New vaccines since then have been tested against the best standard of care, i.e. those vaccines. We do the same thing with many, many other drugs, because having nothing at all is dangerous. ”

        Proof?

        “Suppose for example there was a new anti-seizure medicine. Would you rather the control group got a placebo, or a medicine known to work at a specific level of efficacy and risk?”

        I’d rather that medication not be marketed as effective if it cannot demonstrate efficacy in a double blind study with placebo. Sorry, but which is worse? A few people volunteering for a study and getting a placebo, or millions of people getting a vaccine or drug that has not demonstrated it’s efficacy versus placebo?

        Tell me – Do you endorse Astrology and Acupuncture? These have been demonstrated to “work” in clinical trials omitting placebo.

        SMH.

    • Mrs Renard

      A very brief Google search brings up many placebo controlled studies examining at vaccine efficacy. The one below looks at MMR vaccines. It seems to be an aggregation of several trials; I cannot tell tell if it was double blind.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22336803

      Selection criteria:

      “We used comparative prospective or retrospective trials assessing the effects of the MMR vaccine compared to placebo, do nothing or a combination of measles, mumps and rubella antigens on healthy individuals up to 15 years of age.”

      Main results:

      “We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case-control studies, five time-series trials, one case cross-over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine. Based on the available evidence, one MMR vaccine dose is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles and 92% effective in preventing secondary cases among household contacts.Effectiveness of at least one dose of MMR in preventing clinical mumps in children is estimated to be between 69% and 81% for the vaccine prepared with Jeryl Lynn mumps strain and between 70% and 75% for the vaccine containing the Urabe strain. Vaccination with MMR containing the Urabe strain has demonstrated to be 73% effective in preventing secondary mumps cases. Effectiveness of Jeryl Lynn containing MMR in preventing laboratory-confirmed mumps cases in children and adolescents was estimated to be between 64% to 66% for one dose and 83% to 88% for two vaccine doses. We did not identify any studies assessing the effectiveness of MMR in preventing rubella.The highest risk of association with aseptic meningitis was observed within the third week after immunisation with Urabe-containing MMR (risk ratio (RR) 14.28; 95% confidence interval (CI) from 7.93 to 25.71) and within the third (RR 22.5; 95% CI 11.8 to 42.9) or fifth (RR 15.6; 95% CI 10.3 to 24.2) weeks after immunisation with the vaccine prepared with the Leningrad-Zagreb strain. A significant risk of association with febrile seizures and MMR exposure during the two previous weeks (RR 1.10; 95% CI 1.05 to 1.15) was assessed in one large person-time cohort study involving 537,171 children aged between three months and five year of age. Increased risk of febrile seizure has also been observed in children aged between 12 to 23 months (relative incidence (RI) 4.09; 95% CI 3.1 to 5.33) and children aged 12 to 35 months (RI 5.68; 95% CI 2.31 to 13.97) within six to 11 days after exposure to MMR vaccine. An increased risk of thrombocytopenic purpura within six weeks after MMR immunisation in children aged 12 to 23 months was assessed in one case-control study (RR 6.3; 95% CI 1.3 to 30.1) and in one small self controlled case series (incidence rate ratio (IRR) 5.38; 95% CI 2.72 to 10.62). Increased risk of thrombocytopenic purpura within six weeks after MMR exposure was also assessed in one other case-control study involving 2311 children and adolescents between one month and 18 years (odds ratio (OR) 2.4; 95% CI 1.2 to 4.7). Exposure to the MMR vaccine was unlikely to be associated with autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, bacterial or viral infections.”

      • Gregg Braddoch

        The CDC guidelines do not allow placebo testing to be done in first world countries, so this is most likely done in a foreign country.

        Further, the CDC acknowledges that socio-economic variables including ethnicity will affect efficacy.

        “Nick Sanders” has already linked me to the CDC website, and there are a total of four (count them on one hand) studies done in foreign countries using placebo. Problem is, the results are not relevant for anywhere except the nation where these were tested.

        Further, one study about one vaccine doesn’t mean we should wholesale accept all vaccines without placebo – I’m pretty sure you’ve figured out that different vaccines are well – different, and meant to be used to combat different diseases. So efficacy of one does not equal efficacy of all.

        • Amy

          Yes, and the newer, less-tested ones are generally NOT required. Take the HPV vax, which has been around for less than ten years. Another category of non-required vaccines is that of vaccines for less-common diseases. Americans have almost no risk of contracting certain tropical vaccine-preventable diseases, so they’re not on our schedule. Americans who travel to countries where those diseases ARE a risk, though, are advised to get them.

          And when a problem IS discovered with a particular vaccine, it’s pulled. Examples include the OPV and the old pertussis vaccine.

          So on the one hand you’re setting impossibly high and unethical standards for one side to meet, while on the other you’re using the least little excuse to support your opinion.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So on the one hand you’re setting impossibly high and unethical standards for one side to meet,”

            So you are saying you also support acupuncture as a valid medical treatment? Because last I checked people like yourself would claim they need double-blind testing versus a placebo.

            “And when a problem IS discovered with a particular vaccine, it’s pulled. Examples include the OPV and the old pertussis vaccine.”

            “Inject yourselves! And your kids! Don’t worry, if you suffer permanent ill effects, they’ll stop giving the vaccine to other people!” Not very comforting to those who DID suffer ill effects from OPV and pertussis vaccines. I’m sure those who got cancer as a consequence LOVE this way of testing vaccines. It’s funny how you will argue up and down how placebo testing is “unethical” but, you know it is totally ethical to take vaccines that haven’t been tested properly and give them to people, just so long as the vaccine is pulled when people find out it is causing cancer.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, no, I would believe acupuncture worked if a large trial showed statistically significant long-term improvement in a clinically important objective health measure identified before the start of the trial, even if no control was used.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Well then you are deluded thanks for admitting it.

          • DoorCty

            Gregg, you don’t understand research.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            DoorCty – Lol, when someone comes to me and says “you don’t understand” and nothing else, I find that it is because they are just trying to pretend to be intelligent, but are too lazy to actually find anything of value to say.

            So good luck to you – keep on with your childish “I’m smarter than you” game – Just know it doesn’t actually make you intelligent, but the exact opposite.

          • A

            You know, sometimes I wish we could play dirty like the anti-vax and NCB community does and ban trolls. (Hey, I said “sometimes”. I know it’s actually better the way it is now.)

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, yeah I wish you would ban yourself.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            again, you have nothing valuable to say, just more insults to sling, to pretend to be intelligent. I didn’t expect any refutations or actual arguments from you, so I guess it should be no surprise.

          • Who?

            I think it’s great. We really get to see what these people believe. What’s a few dead babies and old people, hey Gregg? Fever’s what kills in flu, isn’t it, not pneumonia? Gregg will be old one day, hope he sees fit to neglect himself as he proposes neglecting others.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Fever’s what kills in flu, isn’t it”

            Yes, however fever is also what can cause fatalities from the flu. Hence why appropriate application of medicine is necessary. It’s a balance.

            lol, love you people “You don’t agree with me, so you are a bad person, and I hope you die” LOL. and you want to lecture me on being a monster.

          • Who?

            Hang on one second. You want people to die-you said so above. Natural selection, you called it.

            You are a monster.

          • Nick Sanders

            Said the pot to the kettle.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, I’ve made my specific opinions known and explained them, so you are just going ‘trololololololololol’ because you have nothing else to say.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            There were actually a lot of double blind saline placebo trials done on HPV right in this country. Also, they do double blind saline placebo trials on influenza. The thing is they also have to test it against the adjuvant to prove the immune response is not just from the adjuvant. No one got cancer as a consequence of OPV or pertussis. We do not take any vaccines that have not been tested properly. No vaccines have ever caused cancer unless you are a cat.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “There were actually a lot of double blind saline placebo trials done on HPV right in this country.”

            Ironically, the HPV vaccine isn’t a required vaccine.

            “Also, they do double blind saline placebo trials on influenza.”

            Which is a worthless vaccine, as nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid – it also doesn’t guarantee any protection from the flu, so yeah, pretty useless.

            “We do not take any vaccines that have not been tested properly.”

            lol, yet most are not double-blind tested against placebo – personally I consider this to be not tested properly.

            “No vaccines have ever caused cancer unless you are a cat.”

            prove it.

          • lilin

            “Which is a worthless vaccine, as nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid – it also doesn’t guarantee any protection from the flu, so yeah, pretty useless.”

            So . . . can you back your claim that intelligence is the determine factor for fighting off the influenza virus or are you, as usual, making things up.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Intelligence means you have fever reducers and use them properly. There is next to zero reason why you would ever die from the flu, unless you allowed the fever to run too high.

          • Who?

            What-like paracetamol? Or some crap you pull off the trees outside? Or more likely still some potion you buy at great expense from a quack, or are you a quack selling the useless potion?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            More like acetaminophen or ibuprofen.

          • Who?

            acetaminophen is paracetamol genius.

          • lilin

            Nope:

            http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/01/fight-flu-hurt-society

            Fever-reducers can actually increase the number of deaths per year from the flu.

            Also, bacterial infection – often of the lungs – is one of the major reasons that people die of the flu.

            I wish we could publish your responses so that people can realize how little anti-vaxxers know.

            “THere aren’t any studies that use placebos!”

            “Actually, there are. Here’s a link.”

            “Well. Okay. But they were done in foreign countries. And also smart people control their fever to keep from dying from the flu!”

            “Actually, it looks like fever-reducers might increase the chances of dying from the flu. And most people die from bacterial infections of the lungs.”

            I don’t doubt that you’ll have a reason why that study doesn’t count and you were right all along, but it’s pretty clear that you’re either making things up or repeating things that other anti-vaxxers have made up.

          • Who?

            Thanks for writing this-his rhetorical style is a little wearing, and that’s even before you get to content.

            I really struggle to be calm around those who think a few dead bodies-almost never their own, though-is a fair price to pay for whatever it is they are pushing.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Fever-reducers can actually increase the number of deaths per year from the flu.”

            When used improperly, yes this is absolutely the case – but this is also the case with any pharmaceutical, so it really doesn’t make your point.

            “Also, bacterial infection – often of the lungs – is one of the major reasons that people die of the flu.”

            And this is easily treated.

            “I don’t doubt that you’ll have a reason why that study doesn’t count and you were right all along”

            Or the CDC openly admits that a vaccine study done in one location and with a certain ethnic group is not valid in another location with a different ethnic group.

            You people must be dumb as rocks. “Look they did a study in a 3rd world country on one vaccine, and so all vaccines are safe!”

          • lilin

            Thank you for making those uncited claims, some guy on the internet. They’re especially convincing given you’ve been proven wrong in your past claims.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “They’re especially convincing given you’ve been proven wrong in your past claims.”

            Quote for me the portion of conversation where my past claims were ‘proven’ wrong.

            “Thank you for making those uncited claims, some guy on the internet. ”

            I don’t need to cite anything to say that misusing fever reducers can cause deaths – It is common knowledge that if you use fever reducers too often, that it keeps your body from fighting off the flu. If you don’t believe me, then I don’t really care, because at this point you are just being childish.

          • lilin

            You:

            “Without a double-blind study that uses placebo, then the ‘science’ that backs up vaccines is no better than the ‘scientific studies’ that have shown positive results for Acupuncture, Astrology, and Telepathy”

            The comment directly below you:

            “A very brief Google search brings up many placebo controlled studies examining at vaccine efficacy. The one below looks at MMR vaccines. It seems to be an aggregation of several trials; I cannot tell tell if it was double blind.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu…”

            Also, your premise is wrong. There are plenty of medications and techniques that have been proven effective without placebo controlled studies.

            http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/115/9/1164.full

            “I don’t need to cite anything to say that misusing fever reducers can cause deaths – It is common knowledge that if you use fever reducers too often, that it keeps your body from fighting off the flu. If you don’t believe me, then I don’t really care, because at this point you are just being childish.”

            I don’t believe you because you’ve never cited anything – not to show that there are not placebo controlled studies of vaccines (which there are), not to state that the use of antipyretics can keep everyone from dying of the flu (which it can’t), and not to show that fever is the only thing that causes people to die of the flu (which it doesn’t.)

            Like I said, if I could publicize this conversation I would. It shows both that antivaxxers like you don’t have a good grip on the principles of science, (There are times when it’s actually unethical to use placebos in studies, and depending on existing data it’s still perfectly possible to conclude efficacy of a drug or technique.) and that you have no knowledge about any of the facts (you don’t know how the flu kills, how vaccines have been studied, or what treatment is).

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu…”

            Broken link?

            “Also, your premise is wrong. There are plenty of medications and techniques that have been proven effective without placebo controlled studies.”

            See the problem is that you and I have different opinions on what is “proven”.

            “not to show that there are not placebo controlled studies of vaccines (which there are)”

            Strawman – I don’t care if a few vaccines have placebo controlled studies, I want them ALL to have them (or at the very least the ones that are recommended to everyone)- tell me, do you think that a study on the efficacy and safety of ONE vaccine automatically makes the other vaccines safe and effective?

            “not to state that the use of antipyretics can keep everyone from dying of the flu”

            Another strawman, what a shock! I never said that NOBODY will die of the flu ever, as long as they use fever reducers, I said it was highly unlikely, and it is. Besides, a flu vaccines can’t even guarantee a 100% survival rate.

            “and not to show that fever is the only thing that causes people to die of the flu”

            Strawman, never said that – you are really good at those.

            “and that you have no knowledge about any of the facts”

            The things you call facts differ slightly from what I call facts.

            ” (you don’t know how the flu kills”

            The flu can kill you in more than one way. Fever can kill you, and this is yet another strawman, because I never claimed that fever was the only way you could die from the flu.

            “how vaccines have been studied”, or what treatment is).”

            Yeah, no. Again, you are just making stuff up, and twisting what I’ve said so far a contortionist would cry.

          • lilin

            Gregg Braddoch: ” I never said that NOBODY will die of the flu ever, as long as they use fever reducers, I said it was highly unlikely, and it is.”

            Gregg Braddoch: ” as nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid”

            Seriously? You’re not even smart or informed enough about your own arguments.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Seriously? You’re not even smart or informed enough about your own arguments.”

            Seriously, you take statements that are flippant as serious statements. If you are too dumb to understand that I was not saying that everyone that dies from the flu is stupid, then I’m really done talking to you.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            For the record, that statement is meant to aggravate people such as yourself, you know ones with underwear so tight that it is a permanent part of their ass – If you want to talk about stupidity, then let’s revisit your statements saying that bacteria causes more deaths than fevers:

            A. Fevers kill you when they get too high.
            B. Fevers are also necessary to kill the flu virus.
            C. Using fever reducers can have negative effects if you don’t keep a fever high enough to kill off the disease.
            D. Overuse of fever reducers means that your body will have a harder time killing off the virus.
            E. When your body’s immune system has to fight harder against the virus, it also means that it will have a harder time killing bacteria.

            And yet you said “Fever-reducers can actually increase the number of deaths per year from the flu” and then “Also, bacterial infection – often of the lungs – is one of the major reasons that people die of the flu” without noticing that the death increase of fever-reducers and bacterial infection deaths from the flu are related. In fact, its even more hilarious, because if bacterial infection is one of the major reasons that people die of the flu, then this is obviously not a direct result of having the flu, but the result of a bacterial infection, which may or may not have been present before catching the flu. Since dying from the flu in western society is statistically improbable, it can be argued that bacterial infection, not the flu is the cause of these deaths.

            So yeah, your intelligence level makes baby jesus cry.

          • lilin

            “In fact, its even more hilarious, because if bacterial infection is one of the major reasons that people die of the flu, then this is obviously not a direct result of having the flu, but the result of a bacterial infection, which may or may not have been present before catching the flu. ”

            That’s as stupid as saying “no one dies of AIDS, they die of other infections as a result of complications from AIDS, so AIDS is fine.”

            Like I said, every statement you make shows you know nothing about this subject.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “That’s as stupid as saying”

            Nice, so now you are stooping to equivocation. I never said the flu was fine, I said that most people are unlikely to die from the flu.

            “Like I said, every statement you make shows you know nothing about this subject.”

            Maybe if you weren’t engaging in false equivocation and strawman arguments, you’d have a point, but you are, so have fun.

          • yugaya

            What he says he said:
            “most people are unlikely to die from the flu”
            vs
            what he said:
            “nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid”.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Context matters.

          • Who?

            So when you describe something or someone as ‘stupid’ that is rational discourse; when others do it is anything but.

            And I don’t think Illin was being equivocal at all, by the way. She was pointing out you are wrong, in language that roughly mirrors the language you have descended to here in the last day or so.

            Harden up, Princess GlassJaw, or go back to the kiddies playground where you belong.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So when you describe something or someone as ‘stupid’ that is rational discourse; when others do it is anything but.”

            Nah, I just got tired of being insulted and not returning in kind. It’s funny how you will now criticize me for it.

            “And I don’t think Illin was being equivocal at all, by the way. ”

            Then you don’t understand equivocation.

            “She was pointing out you are wrong, in language that roughly mirrors the language you have descended to here in the last day or so.”

            lol, she’s not pointed out that I’ve been wrong at all.

            “Harden up, Princess GlassJaw, or go back to the kiddies playground where you belong.”

            keep trolling.

          • Who?

            “nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid”.

            Own it Gregg

          • Gregg Braddoch

            A. I said people are unlikely to die of the flu before that point.
            B. I was mocking the idiots crying about how we need flu shots to not die from the flu.

            I hope you like cherries, because you pick them quite often – Also, do you like chocolate? Because I think those ones came from your butt.

          • Who?

            Oh now, yuyuga, play fair. Poor Gregg, quoting his actual words for everyone to see.

          • lilin

            No, you said that if one of the main reasons people die after they contract the flu is bacterial infection, the cause of death is bacterial infection and not the flu.

            Which is as stupid as saying that if one of the main reasons why people die after they contract AIDS is an opportunistic infection, then the cause of death is an opportunistic infection and not the flu.

            It shows you really don’t know how medicine works. But we knew that.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “No, you said that if one of the main reasons people die after they contract the flu is bacterial infection, the cause of death is bacterial infection and not the flu.”

            And that would be technically correct.

            “Which is as stupid as saying that if one of the main reasons why people die after they contract AIDS is an opportunistic infection, then the cause of death is an opportunistic infection and not the flu.”

            It’s not the same parallel. AIDS attacks the immune system, the flu does not.

            “It shows you really don’t know how medicine works. But we knew that.”

            lol, This just shows that you either have poor reading comprehension or you are deliberately trying to twist my words by making bad analogies.

          • lilin

            “It’s not the same parallel. AIDS attacks the immune system, the flu does not.”

            Actually it’s exactly the same parallel, because you die from a compromised immune system and it doesn’t really matter whether that compromised immune system is incidental to the virus or crucial to the virus.

            The solution is to take steps to make sure a person’s immune system isn’t compromised by a virus. When it comes to AIDS, or I should say HIV, we haven’t gotten there yet. But what about when it comes to the flu? Is there anything, anything at all, we could administer to people that would ready their immune systems so they could quickly and effectively fight back against the virus? Anything that would be likely make contact with a live virus simply something that the immune system can deal with without giving the virus a long period to spread infection, and the person experiencing a long period of illness and the chance of death?

            Oh yeah. We have that. It’s called a vaccine.

            THANK YOU! YOU’VE BEEN A WONDERFUL IDIOT! GOOD NIGHT!

          • Q

            Figure two is a chart of annual flu deaths in Canada. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/influenza/flu-stat-eng.php

            Lets accept your intelligence-based immune response premise and move on to the question it raises. Even if you’re too smart to die from the flu, do you have no interest in protecting the vulnerable stupid people around you?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            No. It’s called natural selection.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, at what point can we have nature select you to leave?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So, at what point can we have nature select you to leave?”

            Come to my house, and we can find out who is the weaker specimen.

          • Who?

            That’s hilarious! I suppose you’ll pull out a semi-automatic and claim that makes you strong!

            So scared, so weak, so fragile.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not the Social Darwinist here.

          • Who?

            You are a disgusting creature. Are you human at all? Must be, since animals aren’t cruel, they just do what comes naturally.

            Pity help anyone relying on you for care or attention. I hope you treat yourself with the same consideration.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “You are a disgusting creature.”

            Yeah, I rather think that describes those who wish to force others to do things their way, but to each their own I guess.

            “Must be, since animals aren’t cruel, they just do what comes naturally.”

            lol, yes, expecting other people to take care of themselves with readily available information is ‘cruel’ SMH

            “Pity help anyone relying on you for care or attention. I hope you treat yourself with the same consideration.”

            lol, you really have nothing to say except insults, defamation and mockery. Clearly the most intelligent creature on earth.

          • Who?

            So, being disagreed with is ‘disgusting’ is it? Not thought provoking, not challenging, not odd but interesting, but disgusting. Useful to know. You are a tender little flower, aren’t you?

            Children and the frail elderly Gregg, rely on others to look after them. I pity anyone in either of those groups who have you as their carer, since you would treat them as you see fit, which may kill them. This is a fact, perhaps one you find hurtful to have someone else say, but it is a direct take on your own response.

          • Stacy48918

            He’s right. He’s not disgusting. He’s a sociopath. Completely unable to care about other people.

          • Who?

            Fair call. You’ll hurt all his feelings though, talking like that.

          • Stacy48918

            He has feelings???

          • Who?

            The main one is fear, it is in every line he writes. Because this is all about his fear of everything he doesn’t control.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Because this is all about his fear of everything he doesn’t control.”

            And who is it whining about un-vaccinated people again? And who would support laws forcing vaccination? LOL

          • Gregg Braddoch

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            And you got all that from my posts on the internet?? And you are a licensed clinical psychologist? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            Any psychologist will tell you that a diagnosis is impossible without speaking to the individual in person.

          • yugaya

            I guess that in evolutionary terms you are proof that ignorance sells. Kind of disheartening thing to ponder over, but I’m sure you won’t be doing that.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I guess that in evolutionary terms you are proof that ignorance sells. ”

            Projection. You are the proof that ignorance sells, as you use insults to win arguments like a schoolchild.

            “Kind of disheartening thing to ponder over, but I’m sure you won’t be doing that.”

            No, I will be laughing at you. Your comment upvoted for comedic value.

          • yugaya

            “Projection. You are the proof that ignorance sells, as you use insults to win arguments like a schoolchild.”

            It is good that you consider being called ignorant for promoting eugenicism an insult. There may still be some hope for you, albeit tiny.

            “No, I will be laughing at you.”

            I can’t remember, is it sociopaths or psychopaths that laugh when other people show emotions? Or both?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “It is good that you consider being called ignorant for promoting eugenicism an insult. ”

            Its not ‘eugenicism’, its ‘eugenics’ which is defined as:

            “the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of thehuman species or a human population, especially by such means asdiscouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects orpresumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritabledesirable traits (positive eugenics)”

            But this of course, has nothing to do with “survival of the fittest” it is a human manipulation of said principle – It involves certain people deciding based on their own opinion who is “fit” and who is not, where my statement was decidedly saying “nature will decide who is the fittest”.

            “I can’t remember, is it sociopaths or psychopaths that laugh when other people show emotions?”

            You aren’t showing emotions you are engaging in slinging insults. And I’m not laughing at your emotions, I’m laughing at your pathetic attempts to appear intelligent.

          • yugaya

            Noun

            eugenicism (uncountable)

            Support for the principles of eugenics.

            “- It involves certain people deciding based on their own opinion who is “fit” and who is not,”

            Kind of like deciding based on your opinion that only people who are not intellectually “fit” enough die of flue

          • Gregg Braddoch

            I don’t decide if they die. They die based on their inability to handle having the flu, or their inability to locate a hospital.

          • yugaya

            Wait a minute, wasn’t it you who said that they die because they are too stupid to treat fever properly? None of them die in hospitals?

            “there is next to zero reason why you would ever die from the flu, unless you allowed the fever to run too high.”

            I’m sorry Gregg, I’ll have to leave you to your antics now, I’m getting too confused over who-said-what. 🙂

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, yes, try and call me a eugenicist, and when that fails, by all means, bail from the convo.

          • Who?

            Gregg I think is the love child of a particularly shady politician and an olympic gymnast. He combines the corrupt morals and self serving hypocrisy of the one, and the uncanny ability to twist and turn of the other. Like the former he is hyper-sensitive to perceived insult, and his perception, in that area at least, is acute, if off-base at times. But he is quite happy to call others ‘stupid’ or ‘addled’, which no doubt would be terrible insults were they directed to him.

            You did say, Gregg, all you need is intelligence to recover from the flu. Own it, man, own it! Why be ashamed, if that’s what you really believe? So what if you’re wrong, hey? Go down swinging!

          • yugaya

            “Gregg I think is the love child of a particularly shady politician and an olympic gymnast.”

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/06/06/putin-gets-divorced-rumors-spread-about-love-child/

            :)))

          • Who?

            Oh that’s very funny.

          • Who?

            Nah, survival of the fittest!!! Though if he is correct in this assertion, and based on his rhetorical style and choice of examples, Gregg and his ilk should really worry every season about falling victim to flu.

          • Nick Sanders

            “nobody dies from the flu, unless they are stupid”
            Or a child, or elderly, or immunocompromised, or have a chronic health problem, or catch one of the nastier strains like H1N1. Plus there’s all the hospitalizations and lost productivity.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Or a child, or elderly, or immunocompromised, or have a chronic health problem, or catch one of the nastier strains like H1N1. ”

            So the people who cannot take a flu vaccine, got it. Also, these people can all be infected by people who have taken the vaccine – so it would seem my position on these vaccines is the most ethical.

          • Nick Sanders

            What the hell are you talking about? The majority of those people can take the vaccine, and the vaccine itself does not give you the chance to transmit the flu, as far as I am aware.

            Is there seriously no fact you will not distort to fit your preconceived notions?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            You can get the flu because your immune system is lowered by the vaccine, and 4 out of 10 times it does not protect you from the flu. It’s useless.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d love to see a source on those claims. Especially how 60% effectiveness is “useless”.

          • Who?

            So 6 out of 10 times it does protect a person from getting the flu. Six is more than 4, surely.

            If intelligence is what’s going to save you from the flu Gregg, your number skills don’t give me much hope for your survival.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, well it’s my opinion. I’m not going to count something that is ineffective 40% of the time as “useful” and further – I’m not going to take a shot for a strain of flu that I might not even get. I’ve never had a flu shot, and I’ve only had the flu maybe 3 times in my entire life. (And spoiler alert, I survived all of them so you can get your fix of intellectual validation by pretending you are smarter than I am)

          • Nick Sanders

            Opinions and anecdata, lovely.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            It’s only anecdotal to you. To me it is firsthand experience. Further, this is a separate issue versus other vaccines, as flu vaccines are not considered “required” and are not claimed to be as effective as the required vaccines are.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t think you understand the definition of “anecdotal”.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            anecdotal: “(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.”

            Now, my statement is anecdotal to you, because you do not know what I said to be fact, however to me I know that it is fact, and therefore it doesn’t qualify as ‘anecdotal’ to me.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Gregg Braddoch

            You are still failing to see that my earlier claim was that ‘I’ did not get the flu more than a few times, which is not a generalized claim. Therefore, I won’t be getting the flu vaccine. You can get it if you like – suckers are easily parted with their money.

          • Nick Sanders

            “You can get the flu because your immune system is lowered by the vaccine, and 4 out of 10 times it does not protect you from the flu. It’s useless.”

            Those were your claims, they are generalized.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Those were your claims, they are generalized.”

            That is a different claim. I made multiple ones in the same post – this one is supported by science: Your immune response to new diseases is lowered when your body is already fighting a disease.

            Nothing about my ‘anecdotal’ statement is needed to support this claim. Are you trying to look stupid?

          • Nick Sanders

            So, the claims that I clearly asked for sources on, by replying directly to the post that contained them and no other claims, are not the ones you feel like providing sources for. Got it.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, yeah you are now a boring, droning, pedantic troll, so have fun with your life. I draw the line when people start making shit up that didn’t happen.

          • Nick Sanders

            You know anyone can click the little arrows between the names above the post to follow the chain back up and see that it clearly did, right?

          • yugaya

            “when people start making shit up that didn’t happen.”

            Because “nobody smart dies of flu” is such a truthful statement. :))))

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, you know that if I did do the thing you are claiming, that you could post a quotation of it, but you haven’t, right?

          • Nick Sanders

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/skepticalob/what_every_anti_vaccine_parent_gets_wrong_about_vaccines/#comment-1843065003

            “You can get the flu because your immune system is lowered by the vaccine, and 4 out of 10 times it does not protect you from the flu. It’s useless.”

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Again, this is by admission of those making vaccines – It’s commonly reported that flu vaccines are only 60% effective:

            Here’s an article that with the 60% statistic.
            http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20141204/this-years-flu-vaccine-less-effective-than-hoped

            Here is an article stating that vaccines are less effective when they fail to properly project which strains will be prominent.
            http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/health/flu-vaccine-mutated-virus/

            Here’s data from the CDC stating a 51% effectiveness rating:

            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/effectivenessqa-2013-14.htm

            Funny how you pretend you know everything about vaccines, but need citations for things that were reported on the news and by the CDC.

          • Who?

            Hate to break it to you, but this isn’t controversial, and I don’t think anyone here has claimed it is. Playing the numbers, you’re less likely to get the flu if you have the jab, than if you don’t. Simple.

            You claim that for you the flu is no big deal, great. Others don’t share the same fortunate experience. Why deny them the opportunity to get some protection from it? And of course everyone should be using basic hygiene like regular hand washing, which also help with-but don’t completely deal with-spread.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Playing the numbers, you’re less likely to get the flu if you have the jab, than if you don’t. Simple.”

            And you are 100% likely to spend money getting something that works 60% of the fraction of a percentage chance that you will get the flu.

            “You claim that for you the flu is no big deal, great. Others don’t share the same fortunate experience. Why deny them the opportunity to get some protection from it?”

            Where did I ever say “vaccines should be illegal”? People who wish to get flu vaccines can do so, and I really don’t complain about it – I think they are suckers, but you know, some people are into homeopathy too, so each person can do as they see fit. And the irony is – you are trying to convince me to do things your way, because you can’t just “live and let live” – meanwhile, you criticize me for things I’ve never said.

          • Nick Sanders

            Expected return. The cost of the flu shot multiplied by the chance it will not protect me from the flu (due to either failure on it’s part or lack of exposure on mine) is less than the cost in money and time lost to the flu multiplied by the chance I will get the flu if I do not get the shot. Therefore, getting the shot is the smarter choice.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, no, you are still statistically unlikely to get the flu. Very few people get the flu vaccine, even if they get all the other recommended vaccines, so really you are just pulling crap out of your butt.

          • Who?

            ‘Illegal’ never said, never implied. People who mistake your opinions for a fair reflection of the facts might be encouraged to not have a jab, which would more likely than not (since 60 is bigger than 40) help them and those around them.

            And people spend money on a lot more useless things than flu vax in an attempt to stay well, anything homeopathic or naturopathic for a start.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Still doesn’t negate my point that people are statistically unlikely to die of the flu, even though the flu vaccine is administered far less than any other vaccine.

          • Poogles

            “And you are 100% likely to spend money getting something that works 60% of the fraction
            of a percentage chance that you will get the flu.”

            Not necessarily; for instance, I get a free flu shot every year provided by my employer (because they understand that it helps protect against a large
            proportion of their workforce being out sick at some point or another during the flu season). This year, the vaccine protected me against the flu strain my husband acquired (confirmed by our doctor) even though I was in close contact with him every day, providing care and comfort.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            So anecdata is fine when you are defending vaccines?

          • Poogles

            “So anecdata is fine when you are defending vaccines?”

            A single anecdote is completely acceptable when trying to disprove a claim of 100% – which is the only claim I was trying to disprove, that you have a 100% likelihood of paying for a flu shot. The anecdote about my husband was just for good measure, not trying to prove anything with it except that my free flu shot has protected me – I’ve only had benefits from the flu shots so far.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, and the your employer doesn’t factor in your healthcare costs in relationship to your wages like all employers do? I find this hard to believe.

          • Nick Sanders

            Great, that’s one claim addressed, out of three made. Please continue.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Great, that’s one claim addressed, out of three made. Please continue.”

            How about no, because you are childishly asking for citations for things that you should already know, and because…. You’re not the boss of me.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Gregg Braddoch

            lmao. That’s if I actually cared proving anything to a troglodyte like you, but I don’t so….

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Or maybe you need it, because you aren’t evolved enough to handle the sniffles. LOL

          • fiftyfifty1

            “I’m not going to count something that is ineffective 40% of the time as “useful” ”
            Sounds great! Having sex (even on a woman’s most fertile day and without birth control) results in a viable pregnancy less than 15% of the time. Based on this info, I suggest you never have sex, as having sex is clearly not a “useful” method for trying to get a woman pregnant. As a matter of fact, based on your definition, there exists no “useful” way of getting a woman pregnant, and therefore you will just have to remove yourself from the gene pool.
            (women of the world, I know you are thanking me for sending Gregg this advice. no need to send me a personalized thank you note)

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” I suggest you never have sex, as having sex is clearly not a ‘useful’ method for trying to get a woman pregnant. ”

            Sex also provides me with good feelings 100% of the time, so yeah – there are even scientific studies on the health benefits of an active sex life, so yeah, maybe if you’re still in the religious “sex is only for procreation” group then your argument might make sense.

            Additionally, as you have pointed out sex is necessary for the human race to reproduce, when flu vaccines have a viable alternative: Get the flu, sleep it off, and go about your business.

            have fun with your fail trololololololol.

          • momofone

            Are you a thirteen-year-old girl? “trolololololol” This is your idea of serious discussion?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Are you a thirteen-year-old girl? ‘trolololololol’ This is your idea of serious discussion?”

            Lol, no, but then most of the time I’m used to talking with intelligent people who have a sense of humor, not people who will say things like “are you a thirteen-year-old girl?”

          • momofone

            Oh. Gosh. You really burned me there.

          • Who?

            Do you mainly have sex with yourself, Gregg, because based on your comments here I can see that would be totally satisfying for you.

            On the off chance you can find someone else to have sex with, does he or she find it provides good feelings 100% of the time, or have you never thought to ask?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            It’s too late if you wish to discourage my procreation, and my family is both happy and healthy. Thank you so much for your infantile attempts to shame me using implied statements about my sexual desirability. It’s definitely your best method of winning an argument, and maybe a subtle form of projection, just as a bonus.

          • Who?

            Nah, just messing with you. And you do get that your partner doesn’t have to enjoy sex with you to get pregnant?

            Oh and snap on your other comments, so useful as always.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, and you continue in your childish nonsense. Have a good life Literally Who?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Vaccines in no way lower your immune system.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Umm yeah, they do, just like any other microorganism that your immune system responds to. Your body can only handle so many at once.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, a vaccine that has a handful of antigens is just like a microorganism that has 10,000s of antigens? Do you know how silly that sounds?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Either way, the immune system still has to dispose of them.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actual living microorganisms cause DAMAGE. They kill cells and release toxins, and not only does the active immune system have to fight them with antibodies, the whole body’s resources are tapped to survive the infection.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            And this disproves a thing I’ve said how again?

          • Young CC Prof

            It demonstrates that responding to a vaccine is a much smaller drain on the body’s resources than even a minor disease, and vaccines do not lower the immune system.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “It demonstrates that responding to a vaccine is a much smaller drain on the body’s resources than even a minor disease, and vaccines do not lower the immune system.”

            lol, double-speak FTW. Any response by the immune system, keeps it from responding to other things, so it does in fact lower the immune system.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh lordy. Could you please at least take an intro college-level immunology course so you can realize what a meaningless statement that is?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Again, nothing of value to add, and no proof that I’m wrong. (Did you also not take an intro college-level immunology course?)

          • Box of Salt

            Actually, H1N1 is a poor example of this as disproportionately severely affected the young and healthy:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21342901
            “Seventy-six percent of deaths occurred in persons aged 18-65 years” – not the elderly.

            It also took a severe toll among pregnant women.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20407061

            But I guess Greg Braddoch can just write them off as “stupid,” too.

          • Who?

            And weak. This is a big part of Gregg’s thing-it’s natural selection, don’t you know.

          • Nick Sanders

            How is that a poor example?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Tell me again, what percentage of the population even got H1N1? Oh that’s right, a fraction of 1%.

          • Nick Sanders

            Tell me again what percentage of the population has serious adverse reactions to vaccines? Oh that’s right, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 0.1%

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Which is still greater than the percentage of the population that got H1N1.

          • Nick Sanders

            You rather clearly can’t do math.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Again, are you trying to be stupid?

            I’d love to see how your addled brain does the math.

          • Nick Sanders

            In the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, there were 115,318 state-reported cases of H1N1, with 3,433 confirmed death (bear in mind that there were likely more of both that slipped through the cracks). 3,433/115,318 is roughly 2.98%.

            The first number I could find on how many children are vaccinated each year was that every year over 10 million vaccinations are given to kids 1 year old and younger. Let’s assume for the sake of arguement that the 300 deaths number you like to throw around, based on VAERS, is accurate, and happens entirely to children 1 and younger. That’s still 11 times fewer death than H1N1 caused, and as a percentage 300 out of 10 million is 0.003%.

            So, just by those vastly inflated numbers of vaccine deaths, the H1N1 is still about 993 times more likely to kill you than a vaccine.

            Using more accurate numbers, 0.003% is actually the number vaccinations that have ended up in a court awarded compensation for *any* kind of reaction out of the total number of vaccines given:

            http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/03/05/a-look-at-the-numbers-in-vaccine-reactions/

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “with 3,433 confirmed death”

            I will take a guess that you are talking about in the US, which has a population of over 330 million people. By changing your numbers to only the number of stated cases, you are making the death percentage higher – I’m calculating the risk of ANYONE ANYWHERE dying of H1N1, which is practically non-existant – With the 3,433 confirmed deaths from H1N1, this would mean that “0.001”% of the populace died of H1N1.

            “The first number I could find on how many children are vaccinated each year was that every year over 10 million vaccinations are given to kids 1 year old and younger. Let’s assume for the sake of arguement that the 300 deaths number you like to throw around”

            A. I don’t recall using said number from VAERS ever.

            B. Your numbers are meaningless, because you state “over 10 million” while elsewhere counting it to mean “10 million” – you have no actual data.

            C. Vaccine courts only allow a limited number of cases, and have limited funding, so it would be absurd to believe that all legitimate cases would end up in court.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, you want to count H1N1 deaths one ways and vaccines injuries another. Because even if we count them both by total percentage of the population, H1N1 still killed more people. Lots more.

            As for A, I apologize for confusing you with another anti-vaccinationist I also argued with on this site. You all start to run together after a while. It didn’t help that most of the comments on the previous article, including the ones he made using those numbers, got deleted.

            And with regards to B and C, firstly, you did the same thing regarding numbers:

            “There are over 7 billion, (that’s 7,000,000,000) people in the world, making the death rate 0.004% globally.”

            Secondly:
            http://www.asm.org/images/stories/documents/FAQ_Adult_Vaccination.pdf

            Pages 8 to 10.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Because even if we count them both by total percentage of the population, H1N1 still killed more people.”

            Prove it. You made the claim, so prove it.

            “As for A, I apologize for confusing you with another anti-vaccinationist I also argued with on this site. You all start to run together after a while. ”

            Hasty Generalization FTW!

          • Nick Sanders
          • Gregg Braddoch

            Look, you aren’t going to convince me by sending me epidemiological studies – they cannot address or prove that long-term health is not affected.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Gregg Braddoch
          • Nick Sanders

            Investigation of potential methodological problems within specific studies does not invalidate a class of study as a whole. Can you provide evidence that the studies I linked to exhibited such methodological errors? I mean, even one of the ones you linked to is pro-vaccine:

            “Many of the studies, particularly those that focus on emotionally charged diseases or treatments, attract widespread attention in the press, television and radio. Often the results are over-interpreted and result in health “scares”. The “scares” result in changes in the health behavior of the population. For example, the reported association between MMR vaccine and autism [1] resulted in a decrease in the uptake of the vaccine; this was followed by an increase in morbidity and mortality from measles. The study was subsequently found to be flawed and was retracted.”

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Investigation of potential methodological problems within specific studies does not invalidate a class of study as a whole. ”

            Umm yeah it does, if the limitations happen to be that nothing can be factually demonstrated from said field. The best that epidemiological studies can do is demonstrate a correlation, or a lack thereof.

            ” For example, the reported association between MMR vaccine and autism [1] resulted in a decrease in the uptake of the vaccine; this was followed by an increase in morbidity and mortality from measles. ”

            And ironically, the quotation there uses the same correlations that are used to say vaccines cause autism, so you are really not making your point.

          • Nick Sanders

            And they have demonstrated a complete lack of correlation between being vaccinated and suffering significant health problems that you keep claiming vaccines might cause.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            If that were true, then there wouldn’t be adverse side effects, now would there?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Ironically, the CDC has been outed for not disclosing correlations between autism and vaccination in certain ethnicities which found that some were at higher risk for being diagnosed with autism if they between the ages of 24 and 36 months of age.

            Disclaimer: I don’t accept correlation as proof, which is why I doubt your vaccine efficacy propaganda the same as I doubt the autism vaccine correlation studies that pop up all the time.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            And again, you don’t understand epidemiology very well. Correlations can be created and removed at will by researchers, and manipulated to conform to the bias of said researchers – hence why epidemiology is relatively useless to determine actual facts.

          • Who?

            Conspiracy! Head for the hills!

            Is that really your ultimate best shot? After a couple of days chasing your tail.

            Nick, I admire you patience.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Nothing to do with conspiracy, everything to do with confirmation bias, and poor methodology.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            So if vaccines don’t work, only cause harm, and merely boost the bottom line of Big Pharma, Gregg, how do you explain the fact that there are no vaccines to prevent lung cancer, heart disease and the common cold?

            If you’re so clever in deducing the “real” story about vaccines, can you explain why Big Pharma has restricted itself to pretending it has vaccines that work for measles, polio and other diseases that virtually disappeared instead of pretending it has vaccines that work against diseases are far more common. Think of the profits if they could convince people (excepting yourself, of course) to get those vaccines.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Are you really that dense? Which is better for profits? Vaccines that claims to provide immunity for cancer, heart disease, and the common cold, or millions of pills that people take daily for said ailments? I’ll let you do the math.

            As far as vaccinations for dead diseases, double-bonus for them:

            A. They can say “See! These people were vaccinated for Polio and never got Polio!” while well knowing that most people in the western world today have zero chance of getting polio.

            B. These diseases generally create immunity for those who get them, so they can’t sell people drugs to deal with measles for the duration of their lives. (Chickenpox vaccine being the exception, they can sell you that your entire life – because, ironically that vaccine doesn’t create permanent immunity in ANYONE, even though 60+% of people who get this disease are immune for the duration of their lives)

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Hey, Gregg, which is better for profits? Vaccines that claims to provide immunity
            for pertussis, measles, and polio, or millions of hospitalizations and treatments for pertussis, measles and polio? I’ll let you do the math.

            You can’t have it both ways. Either Big Pharma is suppressing vaccines in order to promote diseases they can treat or they are promoting vaccines because they are more profitable than treating the diseases they prevent. Which is it?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Vaccines that claims to provide immunity for pertussis, measles, and polio, or millions of hospitalizations and treatments for pertussis, measles and polio? ”

            Yep, and BigPharma makes all that money – oh wait, they don’t – there are doctors, hospitals, medical equipment manufacturers, and a ton of other people that get a cut.

            “You can’t have it both ways. Either Big Pharma is suppressing vaccines in order to promote diseases they can treat or they are promoting vaccines because they are more profitable than treating the diseases they prevent. Which is it?”

            lol, I don’t recall ever making the claim that Big Pharma is suppressing vaccines – This is just one of your strawmen in the box of “mock people I disagree with by twisting their words and making hasty generalizations”

            Your comment upvoted for comedic value.

            Tell me, if you can’t even get your facts straight about what I’ve said to you (when it is all there in front of you) – Why the hell should anyone take your opinion on ANYTHING seriously?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Whoa! You got me there, Gregg. I bow to your scintillating reasoning abilities!

            Tell me, what’s your day job? Surely a legend in your own mind such as yourself, smarter than all the immunologists, pediatricians and epidemiologist in the whole world, is a university professor or titan of business or a major government official. Which one are you? Don’t keep us in suspense!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” I bow to your scintillating reasoning abilities!”

            As you should – you have been making basic logical errors in your thinking to defend your positions. The really funny part is you will mock many other people for being uninformed, but when pressed there is no real substance behind anything you say.

            “Surely a legend in your own mind such as yourself, smarter than all the immunologists, pediatricians and epidemiologist in the whole world”

            I never said that – but at least I’m smarter than you are.

            “Don’t keep us in suspense!”

            You know the rules of suspense – If I tell you now, then it will ruin it.

            Are you done with your childish taunting yet? Ready to back up what you say with factual evidence? Nah, Didn’t think so.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “You can’t have it both ways. ”

            Also, for the record, this is called a false dichotomy. ‘BigPharma’ is not limited to what is useful for your assertions. They are capable of maximizing profits by selling both vaccines and treatments for diseases. There is no logical conflict in doing so, despite your attempts to invent one.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I’ll let you do the math.”

            Tell me Amy, what percentage of western populations get polio? Measles? Pertussis? If someone gets ebola, and they are quarantined, how long before the public forgets about it because the disease didn’t spread? You can’t treat everyone for a disease… oh wait – isn’t that what vaccines are supposed to do?

            I’m glad you wisely decided to let me do the math.

          • yugaya

            “And this is largely because most of the studies are bullshit.”

            This song I was listening last night does the job of perfectly summing up all of him in terms of style and content on the subject of vaccines :

            “Blame, deny, betray, divide.
            A lie, the truth, which one shall I use?
            Whatcha gonna do? I know.
            Your sanctimony is showing my dear.
            The acrimony hangs in the air.
            Beware of who you trust in this world.
            Beware the lies about to unfurl.
            I reply, that I don’t believe I’m ever gonna die.
            I don’t. Do you?”

            It is appropriately titled “Blame, Etc.” 🙂

          • Gregg Braddoch

            http://conflict.lshtm.ac.uk/page_10.htm

            http://w3.tue.nl/fileadmin/sbd/Documenten/IRPA_refresher_courses/Epidemiology__Strengths__Limitations_and_Interpretations.pdf

            Would you like some more citations? I can post these all night long, and all you can do is laugh, pretending that you are somehow right.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Finally, perhaps the most important limitation of epidemiology is that epidemiology and the data gathered by epidemiologic methods are routinely ignored.”

            “Strengths:
            in Field Observations on Humans

            Long term follow-up in cohort studies : takes in account time-dependant variables”

            It’s really not often that people do this much of my work for me.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Finally, perhaps the most important limitation of epidemiology is that epidemiology and the data gathered by epidemiologic methods are routinely ignored.”

            And this is largely because most of the studies are bullshit.

            “Strengths”

            Weaknesses: Inability to prove anything at all, there will always be room for a variety of confounding variables.

            “It’s really not often that people do this much of my work for me.”

            LMFAO. You really don’t understand epidemiology do you? It’s essentially an educated guessing game, with inconsistent standards, and without isolating the subject material from variables that may or may not cause false conclusions – the exact opposite of laboratory science.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s funny how you are now arguing against your own sources.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            It’s funny how readily you accept logical inconsistencies when they agree with your views. I don’t have to agree with everything in a given document in order to accept the portions of the information that are correct.

          • Wren

            Exactly what type of studies do you believe would show this?

            Do you have any studies that show those who are not vaccinated suffer less of these long-term health issues you claim?

            How have you determined vaccination, as opposed to sheer bad luck or any of a million other environmental factors present today, causes these long term health issues?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Exactly what type of studies do you believe would show this?”

            From a purely scientific perspective, none that are done in today’s world.

            “Do you have any studies that show those who are not vaccinated suffer less of these long-term health issues you claim?”

            lol, it’s funny that you would think they could get a study saying this, or the converse in any way and actually prove it.

            “How have you determined vaccination, as opposed to sheer bad luck or any of a million other environmental factors present today, causes these long term health issues?”

            Again, it’s funny that you would think that anyone could do a study that proves anything using epidemiology.

          • Young CC Prof

            We proved that tobacco caused cancer using epidemiology. Almost everything we know about (real) toxins came from epidemiology.

            Now, please explain what kind of evidence would convince you that vaccines are helpful. Explain what study would have to be done. If you cannot explain, if no evidence would convince you, you are admitting that your objections are ideological rather than rational.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “We proved that tobacco caused cancer using epidemiology.”

            Actually, no, that’s an assertion of the US surgeon general. Epidemiology shows that there is a 2-5% larger risk of getting cancer for smokers, but that is all it can do.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Explain what study would have to be done.”

            The study that would have to be done to convince me would be unethical, as it would require scientists to raise people from birth in a controlled environment, where all socioeconomic factors are removed, and where one group is vaccinated, and another is not. This would also require deliberate exposure to the diseases vaccinated for, which would also be unethical. These people would be studied until death, and any illness or other health problem would be recorded. This would be as close to objective “proof” that one could obtain.

            Absent such an unethical study, one cannot truly claim anything about the efficacy of vaccines, or their safety as “fact.”

          • Young CC Prof

            Ok. So you just don’t believe in medical science, because no one has ever done a human trial like that, for anything. People have done rodent studies like that, but rats and humans are not exactly the same.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So you just don’t believe in medical science, because no one has ever done a human trial like that, for anything.”

            Vaccines are unlike any other product offered to human beings.

          • Young CC Prof

            Why? How do you know that? How can you be sure that aspirin works, since it hasn’t been tested this way?

          • Gregg Braddoch
          • Young CC Prof

            So animal testing drugs is OK, but animal testing of vaccines is useless. Because vaccines are “different” and must be subjected to totally different standards.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, you want to explain precisely why you find this to be a problem? Of course not.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Almost everything we know about (real) toxins came from epidemiology.”

            LOL. yeah, no again – Toxins are easily tested in the lab, as most toxins are toxic both to humans and other mammals. Hence why before it was banned, many products were tested on animals before consumption by humans, and currently in vitro methods of laboratory testing are used to determine toxicity.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Epidemiological studies are the best way to prove long-term health is not affected.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Epidemiological studies are the best way to prove long-term health is not affected.”

            Epidemiological studies are the best way to GUESS if long-term health is not affected. They in no way prove anything.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            You keep saying that, but you really don’t understand what you are talking about.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            And you do because your name is “Sullivan The Poop”? LMFAO. Yeah, sorry if your credentials don’t proceed you.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, just insult then?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            No, merely pointing out that I don’t really take someone who calls themself “Sullivan The Poop” as some form of academic authority on…. just about anything.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, yes all you have left is insults. Good to know

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Funny how quoting your name is considered an insult.

          • Who?

            Yes I’m detecting a note of hysteria here.

            My very favourite Gregg quote, after sharing how the flu never did him any harm, so no one needs to worry about it, and being advised this was anecdotal:

            ‘It may be anecdotal to you, but to me it is personal experience’

            Hilarious.

            Don’t ever stop, Gregg, you’re doing the pro-vax community a great service.

          • Young CC Prof

            I like the part where he insists that the types of evidence used to prove that drugs are safe and effective (or identify their risks) cannot be used to prove the safety or efficacy of vaccines, at all.

            When you are a child, you believe everything authority tells you. It’s written in the textbook, it must be true. An experiment proved it, must be correct. Then you learn about what can go wrong with science, and you doubt everything.

            Then, as you keep studying, you develop the skills to learn what’s reliable and what isn’t, to read critically and accept part but not all of a study’s conclusions. You learn that no single study is perfect, but that you can draw straight with crooked lines, assemble multiple imperfect pieces of evidence to develop a high degree of certainty about at least a few things.

            Gregg, unfortunately, is still stuck in Phase 2 with no interest in moving further. It’s an interesting stage in cognitive development. Most people complete it as teenagers, but not Gregg.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I like the part where he insists that the types of evidence used to prove that drugs are safe and effective (or identify their risks) cannot be used to prove the safety or efficacy of vaccines, at all.”

            I don’t recall saying that ever. It’s funny how those that mock engage excessively in logical fallacies, strawmen, hasty generalization, and equivocation, and still manage to think they are more intelligent then the people they criticize.

            “When you are a child, you believe everything authority tells you. It’s written in the textbook, it must be true.”

            Or in your case, if it is published in a study funded by companies making billions of dollars on a product, and they say it is safe, it must be true. lol

            “Gregg, unfortunately, is still stuck in Phase 2 with no interest in moving further. It’s an interesting stage in cognitive development. Most people complete it as teenagers, but not Gregg.”

            lol, says the guy still accepting uncritically the word of people who’s jobs depend on selling a product, and supporting an MD that in this very article makes general claims that all anti-vaccine parents get certain things wrong (generalization fallacy) and then goes on to attack strawmen. You are one piece of work.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Yes I’m detecting a note of hysteria here.” I’m detecting an ad hominem logical fallacy.

            “Don’t ever stop, Gregg, you’re doing the pro-vax community a great service.”

            Yes, because we all know the entire internet watches this blog by a broken down MD pushing vaccines. You are funny. Your comment upvoted for comedic value.

          • Who?

            Well you do all sound terribly similar. All my rights! Blah! Chemicals! Blurgh! My personal experience is not an anecdote! Belch! Only the weak get sick! Burp!

            Rinse and repeat.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Yep, and you all sound the same “I’m smarter than you, and I should be able to make you live as I see fit. *insert namecalling here*”

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It is interesting that you see everything differently than it really is.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “It is interesting that you see everything differently than it really is.”

            lol, no, people who believe that epidemiological studies prove things are the ones who see things differently than they really are.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Nothing in science proves anything. You can only provide evidence. I did say prove earlier, but I wasn’t thinking about what I was saying. I should have said that epidemiological studies are the best way to provide evidence. I see where the evidence leads. You see what you want to see.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” You see what you want to see.”

            So you do understand how epidemiology works!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Why are you here, Gregg?

            I appreciate the fact that you are driving traffic to my site, but what’s in it for you? You’ve made a complete fool of yourself; people are goading you for their own amusement; and absolutely no one takes anything you write seriously.

            Are you really so desperate for attention that this is better than keeping your mouth shut?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I appreciate the fact that you are driving traffic to my site, but what’s in it for you?”
            Really, it’s a source of amusement, combined with a curiosity to see if pro-vaccination people are anything more than a group of busybodies who sling insults at people who disagree with them – So far, not much luck.

            “You’ve made a complete fool of yourself;”

            I’m not the MD asking why BigPharma doesn’t make vaccines for lung cancer, heart disease, and the common cold if they are only in it for money, while ignoring the hundreds of billions of dollars they make on treatments for these conditions.

            “people are goading you for their own amusement;”

            LOL, yes because…Interwebz & trollz, not because the people doing so are intelligent.

            “absolutely no one takes anything you write seriously.”

            lol, so now you are moving on to shaming, why? But nobody will take anything you say seriously because this is your go-to move. So have fun with your projection.

            “Are you really so desperate for attention that this is better than keeping your mouth shut?”

            lol, right back at you – you have made no arguments anywhere that I can see, except to call people idiots without any facts to back you up. And, while you do at least attempt to be more polite than trolls, that’s not really saying much.

          • Who?

            Dr T, I really think Gregg is doing such a great job for the pro-vax community, he should be encouraged to continue.

            So far he’s supported social darwinism and eugenenics, quoted studies he’s provided against himself and invited a poster over for a fight. All of which are indications, apparently, of his high intelligence and maturity.

            If I was on the fence, I’d be scrambling to the side away from Gregg, because if his performance so far is evidence of intelligence and maturity, well the bar over there is pretty low.

            And I’m big on supporting charity, so if we’re giving Gregg some pleasure (and perhaps some occupational or diversion therapy) while he destroys support for his own position, that’s great.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            More like I understand how anti science people work

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, if you say so. Personal experience tells me that when people say “anti-science people” or similar terms, that they want to engage in the hasty generalization fallacy ad nauseum.

          • Who?

            Similar, I said, Gregg, not the same.

            Since you have a horror of forcing values onto others, presumably you don’t want all of us to live as you see fit?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Nope do what you want, just so long as you are not forcing other people to live in a certain way.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Since you have a horror of forcing values onto others”

            Yeah, you know, this is how reasonable people behave – forcing their values on everyone LOL – a “horror” – more like you have no right to do so.

          • Stacy48918

            Or pregnant.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, you don’t like facts and want me to prove a negative? So childish

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So, you don’t like facts and want me to prove a negative?”

            Hey, you’re the one asserting the ‘negative’ like it is a fact. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

            Also, namecalling is totally the best way to convince someone.

        • Nick Sanders

          Is there a reason my name is in scare quotes?

          Edit: and that wasn’t a link to the CDC, or a comprehensive review of all placebo trials. It was a paper submitted to the WHO to recommended ethical guidelines for use in placebo trials.

          • Who?

            Because Gregg is a moron.

          • Young CC Prof

            Because he thinks it’s a pseudonym. The rest of us don’t actually care and judge you by your words.

          • Nick Sanders

            Interestingly, I used to be super paranoid about using my real name online. Then I kept have to register for places, and kept having to register for places, and kept having… anyway, the “Connect with Facebook” button was right there and I just said “fuck it”.

          • My LgK10

            How can you or anyone, myself included..
            Speak for someone other than self?? This stems from the above state “the rest of us.”
            I also will state I am one who chooses to pick what vaccinations are administered to the dependents of which I hold the responsibility of. I do my own research first. The information I gather comes from a variety of places and people. I use this to form a list of questions that I ask the administer of. Then I make one of 4 choices, 1. No this will not be given. 2. Yes this will be done. 3. This will be given but a different time. 4. Im still undecided I will make an appointment if I have yet more questions to address or I’ve made a decision to get. I will not be pressured into making a decision. The decision will be made when I feel I have my concerns and questions addressed. I do not give my faith and trust to most. Especially when it comes to the total well being of my dependents! This not only includes now it is for their future qas well.
            I see this as an obligation of duty. As well as, It is out of genuine love and concerns for my dependents. I need to have knowledge so I can make a better informed decision. Facts are not always what one perceives. One can claim something is fact based on their own knowledge of what was taught. That does not mean it is so true. As well as, I hold enough knowledge to know that science based information are not all “FACTs” that don’t change. For they are only hypothesis, that have been tested via experiments and hold some kind of proven proof. Then this hypothesis becomes a theory. So, I believe these “truths” are not always facts. We only live in this very form we are in now once. I want to have the power of knowledge! Each of us has a mind of our own where no mind thinks identically to another. This very difference creates equalness. So, truth is not always right nor wrong. Though I am none the wiser, I think it is wise to gain knowledge before one makes decissions. Please I ask you to not give ill judgement of me over my opinions if they differ from those of yours. We are one of the same. Peace…..

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Well then it is a poor citation to demonstrate that vaccines are all tested against placebo, or vaccines that were tested versus placebo, then isn’t it?

          • Nick Sanders

            No, given that that wasn’t what it was to demonstrate. You claimed that vaccines are no longer tested against placebos, the preamble text made it clear that they frequently are.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            I claimed that most vaccines are no longer tested against placebo.

  • just me

    OT, but locally here a nurse delivered a preemie in a walmart bathroom (right place right time luckily). I like how the nurse mentions possible scenarios that could have gone wrong in a non-hospital setting-hemorrhage etc.
    http://www.thecalifornian.com/story/news/local/2015/02/02/salinas-nurse-recounts-wal-mart-bathroom-birth/22769215/

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Sorry that there have been so many problems with the website today. I was on an airplane and couldn’t harange the webhost repeatedly, which is what appears to be necessary to get anything done.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Still having problems with the other thread (what everyone gets wrong about anti-vax parents)

      • Amazed

        Database Error?

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Yes

          • Samantha06

            I was having that issue again this morning, but it seems to be OK now.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Still not working for me

          • Samantha06

            Oh no. I thought it was fixed. I did just get the database error message again when I clicked on a a sidebar comment, but then that stopped too..

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I spent 5 hours on the phone with the webhost yesterday. I’ve been on the phone for nearly an hour so far today.

            I am so sorry and I am so frustrated!

          • Samantha06

            It will get fixed.. 🙂

          • Amazed

            Don’t be sorry, Dr A! It feels good to know that I am not the only one who panics when PC or net are like, “Shall we let you in? Umm, I think not now.” The comments about the glitch showed that I wasn’t.

            Be as frustrated as you want. But It isn’t up to you and we know it. If anything, I think we screwed the site with all the comments.

            Slightly OT: Last week, I bought a new TV and there was no way in hell I was able to tune it in. I tried and failed repeatedly. The guy who came when I called solved the problem for 30 seconds total and was totally awesome, not making me feel like the most technically impaired person ever. Such things happen and I don’t think you need to say sorry so often. It feels reassuring to see how many smart people over here face the same technical struggles.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If Dr Amy can’t even keep her blog working, how can we believe what she says about _______________? Hmm?

  • Amazed

    Hey, what’s going on? First, the site was down for a long time, I gather (at least it was down when I left and still down a few hours later when I returned home) and now I can’t see Disqus but instead a Log in to Reply next to each comment so I had to come in through the Disqus site? We must have really overloaded this poor blog with the first vaccine post.

  • joseph badolato

    Please explain to me how, in the following study, if the MMR vaccine is so effective at preventing mumps, 97% of those who came down with mumps had been vaccinated, with nearly 90% receiving two doses of the vaccine? The article’s explanation is essentially that these kids were in such close contact, that this rendered the vaccine not as effective as it normally would be. Huh??

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1202865

    • Sue

      The explanation is in the paper – those who got the infection had an unusually high viral load due to the close contact, which was enough to overwhelm a primed immune system.

      Thankfully, the outbreak did not spread outside this close contact group – due to vaccination.

      Vaccination primes the immune system to recognise a pathogen. If you apply enough pathogen, the immune system, despite being pre-armed, may not be able to fight off the infection.

      • joseph badolato

        Sue thank you for making my point. The vaccination failed, pure and simple, the authors simply cannot bring themselves to admit as much. If a patient has had mumps in the past guess what—they are immune for life from that disease. So why don’t vaccinations work the same way? Hmmm….

        • Young CC Prof

          Disease= immunity for life is a nice idea, but it’s not necessarily that simple. Do you know anyone who’s had chicken pox more than once? I do, and the adult version is pretty awful.

          • joseph badolato

            Of course it’s not that simple–that’s why RPCT’s would be helpful to see just how effective vaccines truly are. Oh, and the notion that doing RPCT’s on vaccines would be unethical as previously asserted: would it be unethical to perform vaccine RPCT on animals as well?? No? Then where are the studies….

          • Young CC Prof

            Here’s one!

            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=30169

            Now, explain to ME why doing a second one would be unethical. I know you can figure it out!

          • joseph badolato

            CC not trying to be difficult but I clicked on the link you provided and received the message “page not found”. I am interested in looking at this and I don’t know why it won’t come up.

          • Nick Sanders

            The JAMA website appears to be down.

          • Young CC Prof

            It’s the Salk vaccine trial from 1954. It was a randomized placebo controlled trial of a polio vaccine, and the results were very good.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” It was a randomized placebo controlled trial of a polio vaccine, and the results were very good.”

            Yeah, because you know – One type of vaccine is precisely the same as all the others – Lets just waive placebo on every new drug that comes out – because Asprin has been demonstrated to be safe. LMFAO.

          • auntbea

            Whoa! Did you see that?!? The goal posts were all the way over there like three seconds ago.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, did you just use a random comment generator? Because your entire statement is not at all related to my comment.

          • auntbea

            Wrong. Try again.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Sing along with me:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKJRPPA6NBQ

            You might as well, because what you’re doing isn’t any different.

          • joseph badolato

            I read the trial and it’s not a true, 100% RPCT in all facets as one arm of the trial was an “observed control”, which introduces chance in an unplanned, haphazard way unlike a true RPCT which introduces chance in a simple, planned manner. It’s an “ok” trial. And this is just one vaccine trial and we have to go back to 1954 to find one. What about the other dozens of vaccines? Do we automatically just assume they’re safe and effective based on one (partial) RPCT on ONE vaccine from 60 years ago?

          • attitude devant

            Ummm. I’ve had mumps twice. So there.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I don’t know why we need studies, because it IS that simple. If someone gets the disease a second time, then that means that they don’t have “immunity for life” (and I am going to exempt folks who had things like a bone marrow transplant). So if someone got the chicken pox twice, they didn’t get lifelong immunity the first time. And if they get mumps twice, they didn’t get lifelong immunity the first time.

            You don’t need a study determine that. All you need is a single example.

            Like that provided by attitude devant..

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Do you have a legitimate source for the assertion that mumps gives you immunity for life?

          How do you know those same people have the immunity problems with the vaccine wouldn’t also have problems with natural immunity?

          Besides, the fact that some people aren’t able to get immunity from the mumps vaccine is all the more reason why EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET VACCINATED, to prevent those people from getting exposed to it.

          • Amy

            Seriously. I don’t know why these anti-vaxxers don’t get that. Nobody in the scientific or medical community is asserting that vaccines are 100% effective. Herd immunity is achieved when enough people are immune to protect those for whom the vaccine doesn’t work.

  • Samantha06
  • Samantha06

    Is anyone else getting an error message when clicking on the comments on the sidebar? I’ve been getting an “error connecting to database” message, but only if I try to access the “what everyone gets wrong about anti-vaccine parents” post. I used a different browser and it did the same thing. Anyone else having the same issue?

    • Elaine

      That happened to me too.

      • Sarah

        I had that, been happening a few times over the past few days. I wondered if Gina had been up to her old tricks.

        • Samantha06

          I was wondering about that too.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Sometimes, some places, but not all. Bizarre

    • Young CC Prof

      Disqus tends to get upset when posts pass 500 comments, especially if it happens over just a couple days.

    • momofone

      I’m having the same issue.

    • Ellzee Mason

      I’m almost relieved to hear this because yes, I am having the same issue! I thought it was just my techno-challenged self! haha

      • Samantha06

        lol! I am not too bad with technology, but I definitely am still challenged! You are not alone!

  • Lisa C

    I hate the idea of the government forcing vaccines (simply because I think that is a slippery slop) however, as the mother of a small child to young to be immunized, I am terrified that someone else’s idiotic decision will make my child sick.

    • Amy

      The government forces all kinds of things, though. We’re all forced to have birth certificates and social security numbers. We’re forced to go to school or have homeschool plans filed with the local school department. We’re forced to be included in the census. We’re forced to have permits if we want to operate a business or renovate our homes. And since the ACA passed, we’re forced to buy health insurance. When there are compelling reasons to force everyone to do something, that usually overrides privacy concerns. In the case of vaccination, I’d say your child NOT falling victim to “someone else’s idiotic decision” is a pretty compelling reason.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        Hitler’s government forced 6 million Jews into concentration camps, and the total death toll from forced genocide by government in the past 100 years is over 130 million people – There are very good reasons the government should NEVER be allowed to force anything, especially things that have never had double-blind studies tested against placebo.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Major logic fail! How do you get from “some governments have done bad things” to “therefore no government should be allowed to mandate anything”?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            lol, can’t answer my original comment, so now you are going to critique my political views. Thanks very much for your opinion.

            Upvoted for comedy value.

          • Guest

            The proper role of a democratic government is to prevent harmful behaviors, such as murder and theft, not to force people to do anything.

            If democracy was based on people being allowed to force others to do things, this would violate basic human rights.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            The proper role of a democratic government is to prevent harmful behaviors, such as murder and theft, not to force people to do anything.

            If democracy was based on people being allowed to force others to do things, this would violate basic human rights.

            I have a wonderful idea, why don’t you suggest that the government just force everyone to do what you think is best – that would work out great, just like it has so many times in the past…. Just ask North Korea. oh wait. Isn’t that called totalitarianism or monarchy or something?

          • Amy

            I see. And would you, or would you not, classify willfully spreading disease as a “harmful behavior”?

            Also….democracy has nothing to do with governments forcing or not forcing. It’s a system of government in which the people elect their leaders. As opposed to a monarchy, a constitutional monarchy, or a republic, although the latter is basically just indirect representative democracy.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “And would you, or would you not, classify willfully spreading disease as a “harmful behavior”?”

            Considering that proper safety and efficacy studies aren’t done on vaccines, I hardly call that “willfully spreading disease”. Hell, it is documented that even vaccinated people can spread disease, so now – Who is willfully spreading disease? Those who refused to be injected with vaccines that aren’t properly tested, or those who say “stick me with lots of diseases on the off-chance I will not get said diseases”?

            You ARE fun.

            Your comment upvoted for comedic value.

      • Mrs Renard

        “The government forces all kinds of things, though.”

        Yes. Too many.

        Policy can be structured in a way to reach sufficient vaccination levels in order to have herd immunity. Simply make vaccinations required for access to public schools (medical exemption only) and you’re essentially there. This is analogous to prohibiting those under the influence of alcohol to drive. You can drink (or shun vaccines) but the negative externality of that individual’s choice is limited.

        Speaking of schools, if you add in school choice and then tie vaccination requirements to parent’s access to their child’s voucher, you’re going to be even more effective.

        No need to force anyone.

        • Gregg Braddoch

          Wow, I actually agree – to a point.

        • Amy

          Funny, that’s exactly how “policy is structured” as it is. And in places where there are high levels of anti-vax woo, you also find lots of homeschoolers, many of whom homeschool in no small part to avoid vaccine requirements. They’re still going to restaurants, visiting theme parks, using public and mass transit, and generally exposing others to their folly.

    • SuperGDZ

      “Forcing vaccines” is a bit of a strawman though. Mandatory vaccination doesn’t imply, as Ann would have had us believe, that children will be carried away kicking and screaming in the night, while their parents are held down by jackbooted troops. Countries that have a mandatory vaccine policy enforce the policy by imposing fines or restricting access to public schools. They may also offer incentives to vaccinate – eg by way of tax breaks.

      Consider anti-smoking laws. Years of public awareness campaigns, warning labels on cigarette boxes, counselling by medical practitioners and appeals to exercise basic consideration for their own health and the health of others did not stop people from smoking in restaurants, workplaces or around children. Banning smoking in public places not only prevented non-smokers from being subjected to secondhand smoke in the workplace or in public places, it also significantly decreased the prevalence of smoking.

  • anh

    I have a question maybe someone can help me with, since my grasp of biology is really tenuous. So many of these idiot parents insist their children are super healthy and have “strong immune systems”. But….what do they think that means? That their kids can produce more antibodies?
    I get sick MUCH more often than the average bear. My daughter is 2 and in daycare, so that probably means I’m exposed to a lot more things, but often she doesn’t get sick, or is just a little sick, my husband is unaffected, and I’m down for three days. I don’t get a whole lot of sleep, at least not as much as I’d like. my job is fairly stressful. but I eat really well. anyway…apparently my immune system is weak. but I don’t grasp what that means?
    Do I not make as many white blood cells as other people? is my immune system lazy and doesn’t produce the cells it’s supposed to to fight infection?
    I feel like Dr. Amy did a post at some point about how it’s not really possible to boost one’s immune system. anyone remember that?

    • Cobalt

      I’m not a doctor, but my understanding is that a “strong” immune system is just as bad a a “weak” one. You immune system has two major components. One, the innate system, goes off at everything and causes most of your basic sick symptoms: fever, mucous production, fatigue, muscle aches, etc. You’re born with this immunity, it’s like the default setting. The other, acquired, system is all the antibodies your body has learned to produce based on exposure to specific pathogens. This is what vaccines target to prime your defenses against whatever disease.

      Now I’m going to speculate wildly: if every little bug sends you hacking and snotting off to bed, you might have an overly strong innate immune response. Boosting it (if such a thing were possible) would make your symptoms worse.

    • Dr Kitty

      “Strong” or “weak” immune systems are misnomers.

      Your immune system works by recognising pathogens are fighting them. If it doesn’t recognise the stuff, it takes longer to fight it off.

      If your kids are all home-schooled on a farm in the middle of nowhere and have almost no contact with anyone else, the fact that they are rarely sick doesn’t mean anything except that they are rarely exposed to any viruses.

      Likewise, if your toddler in daycare gets 6 upper respiratory tract infections one winter, it doesn’t mean that their immune system is “weak”- they’ve probably been exposed to hundreds of viruses that winter just from being around small snotty kids five days a week.

      When I was in medical school and the first few years as a junior doctor I was sick CONSTANTLY- cough, colds, sore throats, D&V- you name it. Simply because I was around lots of new bugs every day, with people coughing in my face and vomiting on my shoes. Five years later, I’m bullet proof- I examine snotty, rashy kids and expectorating senior citizens every day, but I’m immune to most of this stuff by now and haven’t been sick for a very long time.

      Your daughter and husband might be better at fighting off the bugs than you, or maybe they’ve been exposed to similar bugs before and you haven’t, so your immune system is starting from scratch while theirs have already had a head start.

      The problem is that you cannot predict how your child will respond to an organism that they have never encountered before. Just because they had (for example) a mild case of chicken pox, doesn’t mean they’d have a mild case of measles. Just because they get recurrent tonsillitis every winter doesn’t mean they’d be more likely to suffer badly with ‘flu.

    • fiftyfifty1

      Who gets the most sick in the family with any one illness is super complicated and depends on tons of factors including, but not limited to:
      -Do you have any pre-existing immunity to this illness (i.e.antibodies because you have had it or a very similar illness before?)
      -Do you have any underlying health issues such as asthma, diabetes, poorly draining sinuses, narrow eustacian tubes etc?
      -Have you recently been fighting off something else (e.g staph pneumonia can crawl in on top of influenza).
      -Any genetic immune deficiencies? 3/1,000 people has selective IgA deficiency, and these people will be more prone to mucous membrane illnesses such as respiratory illnesses and some stomach bugs.
      -how’s your hygiene? Do you wash your hands a lot? A parent that spends more time with a child, especially close-contact time, will often get sicker and more often because the kid is kissing and hugging and snotting all over them while the other parent can keep a little distance and wash their hands.

      • anh

        ok, so if I’m already battling something else, I can get sick because that disease sort of sneaks in when my immune system is otherwise engaged?
        I do NOT wash my hands a lot. I’m hearing a “ding ding ding” in my head. My husband constantly washes his and my daycare is phenomenal about kids washing their hands. I wash mine when cooking and when I perceive them as dirty (like, after a meal or after the bathroom), but I don’t wash them before I eat. There may be the culprit

        • Young CC Prof

          I used to take extremely crowded public transportation, so I kind of got in the habit of never touching my face or my food if I’ve touched a public surface since the last time I washed my hands. It made a huge difference.

          • Sue

            Exposure is definitely one of the biggest things in catching minor viral illnesses. Young children in childcare bring home bugs, and exposed adults as well as siblings get them.

            I seem to get less colds since widespread alcohol-rub has been in use in hospitals – I clean my hands so often, I don;t seem to transmit them to my respiratory system.

          • Ellzee Mason

            Okay. I don’t want to sound ignorant but I guess I’ll risk it. I am not a huge hand washer – like anh, I was them when I cook and when I perceive them to be dirty. I eat an average diet – heavy in red meat, actually. I would say I don’t have much stress. I rarely get sick. I can’t remember the last time I had a “stomach bug” OR a horrible respiratory infection.
            So I guess I’m still not understanding how that works. I would describe myself as having habits much the same as anh described herself – with the exception of less stress. So maybe stress plays a greater role than we know?

          • Young CC Prof

            Also, exposure. Do you have young children in daycare or school? Do you take crowded public transportation, or work with the public? If you work in an office and live only with people over 10, you just aren’t getting exposed to much.

      • Samantha06

        Of course, working in the hospital, I am constantly washing my hands and using sanitizer. I always wash my hands when I come home from the store or another public place, and/or use sanitizer when I get in the car after being in the store. In spite of all that, I usually get one, nasty, upper respiratory infection (usually bronchitis) once a year. I do find I catch something when I’m sleep deprived or haven’t been eating very healthy.

  • Lisa from NY

    OT: I predict in future all hospital staff will all be carriers of measles, whooping cough and polio so infant mortality will be 50% for hospital births.

    • fiftyfifty1

      What a bizarre prediction! Lisa from NY, I must say, you never fail to surprise me with the bizarre claims you make! Why would hospital staff be “carriers” for these illnesses? Hospital employees have some of the best immunization uptake rates of any population?

      • Ellzee Mason

        I would think hospitals require staff to be immunized. Schools require it. I was simply coaching an extra curricular activity and have to prove my immunizations, get a couple updated and be tested for TB.

  • DiomedesV

    OT: Our kid is up to date on all vaccines, and her second MMR would happen when she’s 4. But I’ve heard that as long as there’s been enough time between the first dose and the second, there’s no reason to wait that long. It’s been ~2 years since the first shot. Is there any reason not to go ahead and get the second dose early?

    • DiomedesV

      Never mind, answered my own question:

      http://www.cdc.gov/measles/vaccination.html

      According to the CDC, if 28 days have elapsed after the first dose, they can get the second dose. I’m going to call my pediatrician and get my kid in early.

      • Ellzee Mason

        Just curious – why the rush?

    • junebug

      I called my ped and they said no to a second vax unless we were leaving the country.

      • DiomedesV

        Yeah, that’s what mine said. I was disappointed.

  • just me

    And rand paul has proven he’s an idiot.

    • Nick Sanders

      Oh, he proved that a long time ago. Now he’s just making sure no one forgets. But that’s probably a topic for elsewhere.

      • Amy

        I can’t leave this, so I’ll just say it.

        Two words: Aqua Buddha.

    • Samantha06

      Did you see him on the news last night? It was laughable.. he made a big deal of them filming him getting an MMR booster..

  • Cobalt

    From the history file.

    • Young CC Prof

      There is nothing new under the sun.

    • Samantha06

      That pretty much sums it up!

    • JJ

      The only thing that would make this more true is if one was holding a newborn and another was holding hands with an immuno-compromised person. (But the innocents would not be blindfolded)

  • Lauren

    24 weeks pregnant, on our third pregnancy (first two ended in miscarriage), 4 confirmed cases of measles in Toronto, two hours from where we live. Husband is on chemo, starts radiation on March in a hospital on Toronto.
    Legitimately scared out of my mind right now. Two immuno-compromised parents for this unborn boy, and the possible beginning of an outbreak so close to home.
    So glad anti-vaxxers for to exercise their civil rights and freedom of choice — er, I mean ability to make negligent and dangerous actions to bolster their own self-worth. It’s a real comfort in my time of panic.

    • Lauren

      Autocorrect on this phone is brutal…sorry. 😛

    • Samantha06

      I am so sorry you have this extra weight on your shoulders..

    • Cobalt

      I’d be worried too. I’m sorry this is happening, especially while you’re vulnerable.

    • HipsLikeCinderella

      Every parent who does not believe in vaccines should read your story so that they can see exactly whose health they are risking. They need a wake up call that this is not all about them and their selfishness. I’m sending prayers for your family 🙂

  • Cobalt
  • Amy

    I apologize if someone else has posted this, but have you seen this? It’s like a bingo card:

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/arizona-cardiologist-responds-to-critics-regarding-measles-and-vaccines/

    • Amazed

      You and Felicitasz are writing about Dr Wolf (abbreviation intended) whom I got to know about yesterday. Refused to see what this “anti-vaxx cardiologist” was up to, and a good decision it was. Today, curiosity got the better of me and I opened Google News. Hence Dr Wolf.

      What a bastard.

      • Samantha06

        That’s for sure. Don’t you know he will be getting some nasty backlash from that “interview’? I wonder if the hospital he works for knows all this and I wonder how they’ll react? It will certainly be interesting..

        • Amazed

          I hope his hospital get to know!

          • Samantha06

            It will be a public relations nightmare for them.. especially in light of the measles outbreak.. and his disgusting comments about the pediatrician’s child with leukemia.. he said the child probably got leukemia from vaccines.. unbelievable!

          • Lisa from NY

            Who wants to be operated on by a measles carrier anyway (if his child gets it)?

          • Samantha06

            Exactly! What a “heartless” (pun intended) bastard.. I wonder if he tells his cardiac patients with poor prognosis’ “oh well, sorry.. some people are just going to die anyway.”

          • the wingless one

            Is there anything we can do to make sure they know they have a heartless quack on staff?

          • Samantha06

            I’m sure the hospital knows.. he is probably very prominent in the community and the hospital is between a rock and a hard place… bad situation…

    • Starling

      This idiot keeps talking about putting “chemicals” into children and how you need to keep children pure, even if some people do die. He’s basically Dr. Strangelove (okay, the crazy military guy in Dr. Strangelove): he’s obsessed with purity of essence. And he’s an asshole.

      • Sarah

        I feel like there might be chemicals in other things we put into children too… breastmilk, water, food. That sort of shit.

      • yugaya

        I kind of like to let my priests share their professional insights on the subject of purity, but definitely not my doctors.

    • SuperGDZ

      If that annoyed you, you might enjoy this awesome smackdown –

      http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/hey-get-a-load-of-this-evil-doctor-1682799466

  • Felicitasz

    Dr Amy, I have no idea whether you saw this – I just stumbled upon the link, and will do my follow-up reading now (and once again, I am sending this, just like my birth story link some weeks ago, because there is also an MD involved…):
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jack-wolfson-vaccines-doctor-measles

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Wow! At least he’s honest.

    • Samantha06

      Wow.. he is really something.. he’s using the standard NCB line.. “some people just die”.. I hope his patient load falls off drastically..

      • Lisa from NY

        Who wants a doctor like that for a cardiac surgeon?

        “Oh, I don’t care if this patient dies. I had enough.”

        • Samantha06

          You know, people like him don’t seem to have a whole lot of empathy even for their own families. I bet if one of his kids died from a VPD, he would just shrug it off with the “some people are going to die” line..that’s how he would justify his choices.. well, you know the old saying.. what goes around comes around….

          • just me

            And what’s the point of becoming a doctor if that’s their position.

          • Samantha06

            Exactly. There are others like him too.. look at Robert Biter.. no conscience, complete sociopath. I’m not saying this Wolf guy is a sociopath, but it does make you wonder about his capacity for empathy if he so coldly proclaims that he “could live with it” if one of his unvaccinated children caused the death of someone else.

          • GuestK
          • Samantha06

            OMG… just reading that made me want to vomit.. I can’t even…

          • Sue

            His behavior would not pass any fitness-to-practice test, though.

    • Maria

      A friend just posted this on Facebook and I was pretty taken aback. Usually these folks try to at least sound reasonable, but nope, he is in your face. My kids matter and yours don’t. I was particularly in love with his assertion that his kids are “pure”. Makes me want to drink…heavily.

  • Amazed

    I had no idea that Agatha Christie’s The Mirror Crack’d was supposedly based on a real life case.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mirror_Crack%27d#Probable_real-life_inspiration

    No matter what the truth about the book is, the truth about Gene Tierney contracting a now preventable disease and her child being born severely disabled is horrible.

  • If only it was easier to exclude the unvaxxed from social activities – places where once infected their germs take hold in other people who are also not vaccinated. Places like schools and Disneyland. If only social activities were viewed as a privilege that came with a reasonable obligation. I’d be fine to have to present vaccination papers at the entrance of Disneyland, if it meant that my kids would not be at risk of getting a VPD. Being anti-vaxx is not like holding a religious belief that is benign to those who do not share that belief – it is not something that is deserving of protection in the same way. What if the non-vaxxed had to wear attire (face masks, gloves, etc.) that protected others from what they might carry when in public places? Ie. non-vaccine disease containment suits…

    • Samantha06

      I would love to see the non-vaxxed be forced to wear gowns, masks, gloves, etc. Then they’d really be shunned. I know that sounds harsh, but I think it’s a case of what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If you don’t vaccinate and are careless about risking the lives of others, you’ll just have to suck it up and deal with the consequences.

      • Who?

        It’s the kids I feel sorry for, they don’t get to choose and they miss out. I’m all for making the parents’ lives a misery, however.

        If we ‘make’ terrorists by bombing villages, I wonder if we ‘make’ anti-vaxxers by shunning the unvaxxed kids. They only know their own normal, and love and trust their parents, as children do.

        None of this is easy to fix.

        • Samantha06

          I know. Something has to happen though. Making the parents suffer is the best way, but unfortunately the kids suffer the fallout and they are the innocent ones. I wish there was an easier way without affecting the kids. I also like the idea of isolating them out of the doctor’s waiting room. Or pediatricians just refusing to take kids that aren’t vaxxed. It definitely isn’t an easy fix for sure. I think another commentator posted that the government actually can enforce a mandatory vaccination order if things really get out of hand. I don’t know anything about that, but it seems like the kids would only reap the benefits of it.

          • just me

            In california parents get in trouble with the law if their kids are truant. Should be the same way if unvaxxed. Except for the stupid exemptions.

          • Samantha06

            I agree.. and no exemptions. It may end up that way, which would be a worst case scenario for the anti-vaxxers; being forced into it..

          • Who?

            Despite the ramblings of certain posters, I don’t think anyone relishes the idea of mandatory vaccination, any more than doctors like forcibly treating sick children.

            My feeling is that it will perhaps be a terrible flu epidemic or similar that brings us to this point, by which time enough people will be dead or permanently damaged that protest will be very limited.

            Not a hopeful scenario.

          • Samantha06

            No, it certainly isn’t a very hopeful scenario. I am hoping societal pressure will push the anti-vaxxers to change their tune. Unfortunately I do think kids will have to die or suffer damage first. But then you have idiotic comments from politicians like Rand Paul (I could hardly believe it!) which only adds more fuel to the anti-vax fire…

          • yugaya

            Ann was getting pretty amusing with her 1984 scenarios right before she flipped into tantrum mode and started spamming the previous vaccine post.

    • SuperGDZ

      A complete vaccination record, except for medical exemptions (no philosophical or religious objections) could be a requirement for schools – public as well as private. Non-vaccinating parents would then be obliged to homeschool.

      It isn’t difficult to conceptualise a system where children could be issued a card, valid for an appropriate period of time (depending on age and where they are in the vaccination schedule) by a recognised practitioner, which would confirm that their vaccination status is up to date or that there is a valid medical exemption, and that laws be put in place requiring schools, museums, amusement parks, restaurants with playground facilities, airlines, etc to refuse entry to children without a valid card, just as the law requires businesses and public facilities to enforce non-smoking laws on their premises.

      Make it an administrative nightmare for parents who don’t vaccinate.

  • RosaInBerlin

    What really gets me with this topic is the belief that organic food, breastfeeding, etc. will protect children from vaccine preventable diseases. I am living proof that this is not the case. I was born in the late 1970s in the Republic of Ireland, and as far as I can tell, there was no widely available single measles vaccine until 1985 (when there was close to 10,000 cases of measles for a population of 3.5 million) and no MMR till 1988. By that time, I had caught all the standard childhood diseases, including measles, mumps, rubella and whooping cough. I was also – as if it matters – breastfed exclusively for 6 months and fed an excellent diet full of fresh unprocessed foods (there were far fewer processed foods in Ireland in the 1980s than there are now, and in any case, my mother was against them). Moral of story: no, organic food, fresh air and breastfeeding will not prevent your child from getting the measles if herd immunity is poor. It amazes me that this logic is so prevalent.

    • Lisa from NY

      You need to publish your autobiography. You don’t exist according to the blogs..

    • DiomedesV

      200 years ago no one ate organic food and everyone was formula fed. :-/

      • Lisa from NY

        LOL! You would think?

    • Happy Sheep

      You didn’t die, so you prove their theory that measles is NBD, or so they would claim while madly shifting their goalpost.

  • Amy M

    Found this online today

    • Samantha06

      haha! Love this!

  • Trixie
    • Amy M

      I think of Balto..

      • DebraB

        I think of Almanzo and Laura.

        • Trixie

          That too.

        • Elaine

          I think of them every time I’m cold in my car, reminding myself this is small potatoes and to bundle up better next time.

          • DebraB

            I thought of them on Friday when I got a DTaP booster.

      • Cobalt

        Pro-vaxx propaganda! Everyone knows they could have just ordered the anti-toxin from Amazon and had it sent with free Super Saver 2 day shipping.

    • Melly

      I think of my grandmother, who lost four of her siblings to diphtheria in ten days. They were between 2 and 10.
      Because of the quarantine, my great grandparents couldn’t even go to their children’s funerals. Coffins were passed in through a window, the child’s body was placed inside and passed back out the window.

      • Trixie

        That’s horrifying.

      • Samantha06

        How awful..

    • BethC

      This occurred in the county where I live. It’s a story that every healthcare provider in the community is familiar with and tells to anti-vax types when the subject comes up. We have a very high vaccination rate here.

  • AL

    How about I not vaccinate my dog for rabies. It’s poison and no dogs in our neighborhood have rabies, so I think it’s a vet pharma conspiracy!
    I am so irritated and annoyed at this current outbreak because I have a 10 month old. I live in LA near all the Westsiders who are all into the homebirth crunchy, no vax crap. My kids (my 3 year old and 10 month old) are in a studio daycare and I was worried that we had a high non vax rate. Surprisingly when I talked to my daycare director, EVERYONE at the daycare is current on their vaccines! That was so shocking and such a relief because we’re in a studio! She also said in the 14 years the center has been opened, she’s only had ONE ask for exemption. So now, I just need to keep her away from big crowds until April when she can get her MMR the day after her birthday.
    My sons elementary school however….15% personal belief exemption…my son is holding up an umbrella for the jerk parents who send their kids there.

    • Roadstergal

      I know you were kidding, but there are indeed antivax pet owners. I have two lovely bitches and live in NorCal, so they worry me. A lot.

      • Samantha06

        My neighbor is like that.. no vaccines for her dog! She gives him herbs…. *sigh*

        • Cobalt

          I wonder if she’ll be in for her own rabies shots if something happens with dog and a wild animal.

          • Samantha06

            I was thinking that right after I wrote my comment. Next time I see her I’ll ask her about the rabies. I know it’s mandatory here, and what’s scary, is that I live in an area where there are tons of wooded areas. My neighborhood is older and very wooded and there’s tons of wildlife in the neighborhood, including raccoons. It will be interesting to find out what she has to say.

          • Cobalt

            I speak from experience when I say getting the post-exposure rabies series is very unpleasant. Mine was a total of 12 shots over the course of 4 weeks, and they HURT. Beats the 100% rabies fatality rate, but it’s only ONE shot for the dog.

          • Samantha06

            I’ve heard about those shots… it definitely beats the alternative, but sorry you had to go through that! And, I didn’t even think about this.. what if she hasn’t vaxxed her dog, and lets say he catches it, then she is out walking him and I happen to pet him and he licks me… *shudder*.. you know that is a real risk, so I am definitely going to ask her about that….

          • Cobalt

            Rabies is hard to catch, it’s typically only contagious in the last ten days of life, and the animal is almost certainly symptomatic by that point. It also needs bloodstream access to infect you. Here’s a good link about risk assessment:
            http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/rabies/risk/human.html

            Mine was a raccoon attack involving my dog (the dog won but what was left of the raccoon got away), lots of animal bodily fluids everywhere and my hands had a bunch of small cuts from unloading hay the day before. Low risk, still, but the stakes with rabies are too damn high.

            The person the dog is most likely to infect is the owner.

          • Samantha06

            Thank you for the info.. Rabies is not something I’ve ever really learned much about. I feel more at ease knowing my risk is low, but I’ll feel even better once I find out her dog’s status! Thank God yours was vaccinated! Was your dog badly injured?

          • Cobalt

            She had some very superficial injuries, didn’t even need stitches or anything. She got a rabies booster shot even though she was current, and we still had to do home quarantine for a while just in case. She had quite a bit of raccoon juice all over her though, which she shook everywhere. I was so scared, I didn’t know if surfaces could be infected (generally no) or if the county would impound or euthanize her (not if vaxxed and you can be trusted to quarantine) or if the kids could get it from petting her later (no, but they recommended washing her right then anyway). Animal control (and their colleagues at the health dept) were really helpful.

          • Samantha06

            OMG, I would have been scared to death too! Thank God for vaccines! I’m glad you, your family and your dog are all OK!

          • Cobalt

            Vaccines were the difference between my having to shoot my dog then wait weeks to months to see if rabies eats my brain (rabies is a really horrible death until you get to the coma part) and everyone coming through just fine. The shots and keeping the dog home were inconvenient, and the shots hurt, but not as much as having to put the dog down and wait to die.

          • Samantha06

            Exactly.

          • Lisa from NY

            A non-vaxxer would prefer Rabies over vaccine. Some people weren’t meant to live.

          • yugaya

            The most horrifying book I ever read is this novel called “Rabies” by a local author who was into upgrading on real science and history in all of his writings, so it is both factual and realistic besides being a great book on its own. It’s about what would happen if the rabies virus grew up a notch. Never ever ever read that book while pulling an all nighter with your dog sleeping in your lap.

          • AL

            When I was little my cousin got bit by her rabid dog. (This was in the Philippines). Same thing, she got the same thing..12 shots over 4 weeks and she was I believe 7 at the time.

          • AL

            sorry i said “Same thing” more than once. Ha.

          • Dinolindor

            My dad had to get the post-exposure rabies shots about 2 years ago. They were so very painful for him, and such a hassle having to go back every couple days for weeks. He’s a veterinarian and was examining a big dog brought in from overseas to be a watchdog. The dog’s records were unclear, but they thought it was into the last year of its rabies shot before the next booster. I guess if a dog bites at that point, even if the records give a clear timeline of vaccination, they give the person the post-exposure shots as a precaution. I didn’t know until then that rabies was fatal. (I also didn’t know that in my dad’s 40+ year career as a vet, this was his first dog bite. I think that part is pretty amazing.)

      • rational adult

        Yes this is a real thing and I want those dogs to stay the hell away from my dog!

      • Mariana Baca

        Isn’t that illegal? can’t they be reported to animal control?

        • rational adult

          Well, here you can’t license your dog without proof of rabies vaccination, and it’s illegal to have an unlicensed dog. But I’m pretty sure animal control doesn’t have the time/budget to track down all the unlicensed dogs.

          • Mariana Baca

            Well, I meant more like a direct phone call situation, rather than them trying to track down dogs.

          • rational adult

            Gotcha. Yeah I wonder how that would go. It’s not a bad idea.

    • Trixie

      I miss the good old days where you you could shoot rabid dogs in the street, Atticus Finch style.

    • DiomedesV

      You are very lucky. A friend was looking into the vaccine rates for the daycare at UC Berkeley. It’s shockingly low. Way below herd immunity.

  • Kq

    There are few things as selfish as vaccine rejection.

    • Roadstergal

      The craziest home stunt births put no more than two/three lives at risk. The antivaxxers put the whole community (and beyond) at risk.

      • Mariana Baca

        Not to mention they slow down what could be the complete eradication of a disease in the future, at which point we wouldn’t need to vaccinate anymore, like for small pox.

      • just me

        I had a roommate in college who was deaf, I believe from her mother having German measles when pregnant. She was born in 1968.

  • moto_librarian

    When we were expecting our first child, the first question we asked when interviewing our potential pediatrician was about their stance on vaccinations. We chose our practice in large part because they do not accept families who refuse to vaccinate as patients. They will allow some spacing out of the shots, but all kids need to be up to date by age one.

    • momofone

      We did everything on schedule the first year, and had some reservations about the MMR (because of woo-y stuff we heard and probably some older- and new-parent panic–“We’ve waited so long for this baby; are we sure this is safe?”). Our pediatrician was wonderful. She strongly advised that we go with the schedule, but answered our questions patiently and consulted with an infectious disease specialist, who sent us lots of information. His approach was not gentle, but it was what we needed. He said something along the lines of “Sure you can postpone, but you’re a damn fool if you let your child around other people unvaccinated.” He also said there was no merit in doing each part separately, but it wouldn’t hurt (we didn’t). I can definitely understand having questions (and honestly I am embarrassed about it now, not the question part, but the wooiness of it all), but once they’ve been asked and answered, to presume to know more than the people who have made it their job to know is just ignorant and arrogant.

      • Elaine

        I saw a large study showing increased efficacy of the MMR at 15 months versus 12, so we gave it to our daughter at 15 months. Now… I suppose that’s a nice thought as far as it goes, but now with all these measles outbreaks that seems like a pretty bad idea and our son is definitely getting it at his 12-month checkup later this week. After all, there is no efficacy at all for a shot he hasn’t had yet, and how long until some local anti-vax loon turns up with the measles?

        • Young CC Prof

          When was that study done? If it was older, then it was probably performed on the children of naturally infected mothers, rather than vaccinated mothers. Maternal immunity lasts a little bit longer if the mother actually had measles, and it has to fade completely for the vaccine to “take.”

          My ped’s standard schedule calls for varicella at 12 months and MMR at 15 months. I was cool with that last month, not anymore. A couple days ago, there was a case in a public place I sometimes take him, and on a train I have taken with him. (Haven’t been there recently, fortunately.)

          Baby Prof is getting his shot Thursday. Thanks, idiots!

          • Elaine

            I can’t seem to find the study now. Admittedly, I didn’t look super-hard. I found one that studied kids from an epidemic in 1989, that came to the same conclusion, but I’m not sure it’s the same one I looked at. I’m not sure when the MMR was introduced and what the maternal immunity would have been like in that cohort.

            I’m not that paranoid, but it was definitely more nerve-wracking to give the vaccines with our first kid, which contributed to our spacing them out. After watching her come through with flying colors, it hasn’t been as big a deal with the second.

          • Young CC Prof

            Vaccination started happening in 1963 in the USA. Most folks who caught it in 1989-91 had naturally infected mothers, unless they were very young.

        • momofone

          I’m not sure how long ago you read that, but I read a similar one (this was almost 7 years ago), and that was the catalyst for our questioning (combined with the breastfeeding woo that by then we’d encountered). We only have one child, but that is one thing I would definitely do differently a second time around.

    • S

      I asked that too, and even after i said we want the CDC schedule, the receptionist at our local large medical group kept emphasizing that they offer the “Dr. Bob schedule.” Whatever; i asked for a call back from a pediatrician. The ped said she recommends vaccinating on schedule, and she has seen the impact of VPDs firsthand in other countries — but then she also reminded me that they offer the “Dr. Bob schedule.” Why the hell?? If someone says, “I want the full set ASAP,” why even offer an alternative? (We went with a different group.)

      That group used to have a homeopath on staff, but she formed her own practice (I hope because they kicked her ass out). I know from a friend that this physician specifically recommends _against_ the flu shot because she feels its safety is unproven. That friend ends up taking her daughter almost every year for Tamiflu. I don’t get it.

    • DiomedesV

      We asked our pediatrician the same question at our first newborn visit. She visibly tensed and then I said that we wanted our children to be seen in a practice that didn’t have a lot of unvaccinated kids, because we vaccinate. She looked relieved and said that most of their patients vaccinate, but left open the possibility that some don’t. We’re part of an HMO and don’t have a lot of choice, and otherwise have access to some of the best care in the country, but still, that wasn’t exactly what I wanted to here.

  • Tricia

    Thank you. I’ve become so frustrated with those saying, “We’re just being healthy.” Because really, you’re putting so many others at risk. Fear the disease, not the vaccine. http://streamoftheconscious.com/disneyland-is-a-pain-in-the-shoulder-vaccinate-your-kids/

    • Samantha06

      Well, they won’t be saying they’re “just being healthy” when their kids get severely ill and/or die from a VPD…

      • Amy M

        Well you know, “natural immunity is best” at least up to the point of death. I mean, kid might be brain-damaged but at least he can’t get measles again!

        • Samantha06

          Isn’t that the truth! Their logic is just warped. I had the measles as a kid and was very sick. One of the other posters here asked me what I remember about it and I know I had an extremely high fever, and I may have had mild encephalitis because I have some small brain lesions found on an MRI when I was in my 30’s that they said was probably residual encephalitis. Why these nutcases would even want to consider putting their kid through that and the possibility of brain damage and/or disability on the altar of “all natural” is beyond comprehension. It’s the same as the NCB crowd with their unassisted births. It’s insane.

    • Amy
  • Pick A Name

    My ped. requires (as most peds) that all parents provide the medical history of their child. If the child is a newborn, she asks the parent if they will vaccinate. If the medical history shows the child is unvaccinated, or the parents state that they won’t vaccinate…she will not accept them as a patient.

    She is very clear on this and explains about how their “choice” does/can endanger and even kill infants and immunocompromised children. When flu season hits, she sends and e-mail to all the patients and to inform them that about “flu shot days” where all kids can come in, get their shot and entertainment is provided-usually a magician and/or a professional costumed actor for whatever movie(s) is popular at the time. Character from Frozen, Iron Man, etc. also refreshments(handed out by someone not left on a table). It’s been a tradition for years and it’s very funny to hear kids say “when is Flu Shot Day?

    The anti-vax parents loathe her saying she is a “bigot” because they don’t support their “beliefs” some have tried-and spectacularly failed-to sue her for not accepting their child as a patient.

    • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

      Thats awesome, that’s a great pediatrician.

    • Samantha06

      Fabulous doctor!!! And good for her for standing up to them. The behavior of the AV parents with the tried-and-failed-lawsuits reminds me of Jennifer Goodall and her attempting to force her doctors to comply with her VBA3C. They refused and she went to the courts.. and lost.

    • rational adult

      Flu Shot Day sounds fun! The flu clinics at our pedi have no entertainment other than the entertaining line of squalling children. We could skip the line because of my son’s autism but at this point he doesn’t have any difficulty waiting in long lines – I’m the one who gets antsy. So we wait and a kiddie magician would really be great.

    • journalgal2

      That sounds so much better than lining up at the local mall for our flu shot clinics every year like we do! Great doctor.

    • Amy

      I’m gonna get mildly political here. I find it VERY funny how many of the non-vaxers are pretty hardcore libertarians. Yet they act like a doctor’s office is a public accommodation (it’s not) and attempt to force the doctor to accept them as patients

  • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    And now there’s yet another case in a vulnerable group: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/day-care-center-closed-after-baby-gets-measles/
    The infant/toddler daycare center is at Santa Monica HIgh School and is used by students at the high school who are continuing their education , after giving birth. The baby was too young for the MMR. Unknown how the infant caught the measles although the baseball coach at the school was also confirmed to have contracted measles 2 weeks ago…

    • Laura Thomas

      Someone he knew in some social circle had probably gone to Disneyland recently. The two locations are only about an hour apart. 🙁

  • rational adult

    Our pediatrician’s office is giving all undervaccinated patients 12 months to get up to date on vaccines or find a new PCP. We are pleased. What I wonder is, is anyone aware of any research on this topic? Specifically I would be interested to know when a clinic takes this stance what percentage of families do get the vaccines up to date versus leaving the practice?

    • anne

      There was a doctor that posted in the comments thread of a newspaper article the reported a good chunk of his patients chose to catch up on their vaccinations when he banned non-vaccinated by choice patients from his practice. If I can find it I will link it. My impression was even he was surprised by that.

      • rational adult

        Good anecdote, I would like to read that. And of course it’s only undervaccinated or non vaccinated by choice patients who will be banned – to protect those who medically cannot get their vaccines.

      • Samantha06

        I saw one interviewed on the news too who said the same thing- he fired all the non-vaxxers and they started lining up in droves to get vaccinated.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        I read a story about a girl in California that was asked to stay home from school because she is unvaccinated. She told the reported she just wants to get the shot and get back to school, but her mom won’t let her.

        • Roadstergal

          I saw that same story. It made me so hopping mad.