Congratulate me; I’m on the Anti-Vax Enemies List!!

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You hate me! You really hate me!

I stand before you honored and deeply humbled that you have chosen to recognize my contributions to the world of science advocacy. It’s difficult to imagine a more meaningful affirmation of my body of writing than to find myself named to the Anti-Vax Enemies List.

It is such an honor because it shows that you really fear me, and you should. But this is not my victory alone. There are so many I must thank for without them I would never have reached this glorious day.

I’d like to thank my parents for valuing learning and condemning superstition and conspiracy theories. My parents did not have the luxury of an advanced education (my father was the first in his family to attend college, and he did so at night while he worked full time during the day to provide for his family). My parents showed me that education is the key to successfully avoiding the profound ignorance that is the bedrock of anti-vax advocacy.

I’d like to thank my teachers, from kindergarten on up through college and medical school. They truly gave me the world when they gave me basic knowledge of science, math and logical thinking. So many anti-vaxxers never received that and it is frightfully obvious.

Thank you to my college thesis adviser who let me work in his lab at the Shriner’s Burn Institute in Boston and taught me both how to conduct research and how to read and analyze the scientific literature.

Thank you to my science heroes whose example motivated me and my anti-pseudoscience heroes who showed me how to use the internet and social media to combat the ignorance, conspiracy theories, and unmerited sense of superiority so beloved of anti-vaxxers

My deepest thanks, though, belong the the patients that I had the privilege to care for. Sadly, while saving many lives, I saw first hand how belief in pseudoscience can kill people; ironically it killed people who turned to it because they desperately wanted to live.

And finally, I must thank the anti-vaxxers who created the list of 30,000 individuals who threaten the echo chambers that are critical to the dissemination of the collective paranoia and idiocy of the anti-vax brigade. Anti-vaxxers have created an alternative world of internal legitimacy complete with “experts,” books and products. It is a dark and deadly world deeply threatened by the sunlight of science and rational argument; hence the need for an enemies list in the first place.

Real science values open discussion as a critical component of scientific literacy; quacks, cranks and charlatans are afraid of open discussion and well they should be. When subject to science based, logical open discussion, anti-vax claims wither and anti-vaxxers are exposed as the fools that they are.

I am pleased, proud, and honored by their fear. I am thrilled to be recognized as an Anti-Vax Enemy and I pledge that going forward I will do everything possible to merit that distinction.

  • Fibi Breaux

    Congratulations of receiving this honor. I only hope I can achieve such greatness.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Only mildly on topic, but sadly inevitable: http://www.lfpress.com/2015/05/29/boy-6-fighting-tetanus

  • grub
  • DJEB

    High five! I’m listed there twice, for some reason.

  • Kitty Possum

    You have said everything I wanted to say yet so much more eloquently. Well written.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    In the mean time, in the category of “greedy big pharma” and their profits from vaccines, the inventor of Gardasil is waiving royalties from sales to poorer countries to make it available to more people. Source: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gardasil-inventor-ian-frazer-and-the-university-of-queensland-waive-millions-of-dollars-in-royalties/story-fnihsrf2-1227314170728

  • I went to the link to see if I made the list yet and the list is GONE.

  • DelphiniumFalcon

    Huh I’m not on there yet. Guess I need to “troll” harder.

    Have an illustrated point of my opinions.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Dear Delphinium:

      We hear that you have not been selected for the anti-vax enemies list. This is entirely unacceptable.If you want to keep your job as a paid shill you must TROLL HARDER.

      Sincerely,
      Your Evil Big Pharma Overlords

      PS Remember to come in for your MMR booster soon. It’s clear that your mind control is wearing off.

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Wait, what mind control? What are you-where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?!

  • Who?

    This reminds me of Pemberton Billings’ WW1 list of the 47000. His view was that the Germans were blackmailing “47,000 highly placed British perverts” to “propagate evils which all decent men thought had perished in Sodom and Lesbia.” The names were said to be inscribed in the “Berlin Black Book”, the contents of which revealed that the Germans planned on
    “exterminating the manhood of Britain” by luring men into homosexual
    acts. Women were not immune from the scourge either, which would ultimately lead to Britain’s defeat in the war.

    He was quite an interesting and capable man in many ways, but he had a real bee in his bonnet on this one.

  • Robert

    I think we should mandate also circumcision. Some studies points out how useful it is to prevent HIV. ANd why not?
    Also, let’s mandate tonsils removal. It was such a lucrative business for doctors. We can mandate that too.
    Dentists already mandate xrays every 6 months for every child and they also mandate fluoride in the water and threat you with fluoride in office.
    ANd California also mandates flame retardants everything, furniture, clothes hoping to get everyone retarded..
    The reason S277 exists is probably for the people that made the choice not to feel bad about their decision ( same with circumcision) and also, to remove any possible statistical comparison between vaccinated and non vaccinated children. If you allow some children to be not vaccinated that might show some of the impact of vaccinations. If you vaccinate everyone, then there will be no discussion regarding the side effects of vaccination, since only sick children will be un-vaccinated.
    Going back to mandating circumcision and tonsils removal, where is the limit of what the state and medical-complex can force you to do, when it already did so many things against our children for their own benefit.

    Don’t be a fool. Medical-complex cares much more about their profits than they care about the our children.

    • SporkParade

      So, let me get this straight. You are angry that there are legally-mandated safety standards for consumer products. You are also angry that medical professionals expect to be compensated for services rendered. You are also angry that drug companies expect to be compensated for the costs of developing, testing, and producing their products. And you think it’s hypocritical that people don’t think you ought to have the right to forcibly expose their children to deadly, easily eradicable diseases, while not particularly caring if it is standard for children to undergo a minor medical procedure with only modest health benefits that only accrue to that specific child. Do I understand you correctly?

      • Robert

        your answer is a typical bushit you get from the brain washed medical personal. they will tell you like robots whatever the medical-complex authorities tells them. everything is save and needed. you didn’t answer my question the same way doctor don’t ever answer. don;t worry everything is fine is their only answer.

        I will ask you again, do you support children (and adults too) mandatory circumcision since is has health benefits?

        How about supporting tonsils removal that is also mandatory? Since it also has benefits.
        If you do, then no further questions asked from this community. If you don’t where is the limit to what the medical-complex can mandate?

        • Montserrat Blanco

          Robert first, nobody is mandating vaccination. You can homeschool your kids, you can send them to a private school that does not have vaccination requirements.

          Second, the benefits of vaccines are great for the child that is vaccinated and the risks for that child are minuscule if there is not a medical exemption (in which case that kid does not get the vaccine and is allowed to go to public school). Circumcision has created risks than vaccines for a child, minuscule benefits for that said child and small benefits in the field of public health so you are comparing completely different things.

          It is much more similar to non smoking laws in public places. You are not allowed to smoke on a cinema. Why? Because some people there might have conditions like asthma that get worse if you smoke, and some people might get cancer due to smoke exposure.

          You are free to do not get any vaccines and you are absolutely free to do not vaccinate your kids. You just can not take those said kids to some schools where they might pose a risk to other children.

          • Robert

            This was supposed to be a evidence based medicine. Supposedly, Was there any case of such diseases transmissions from the unvaccinated to vaccinated children in the school environment? If it was please share. Otherwise, how is this mandate related to evidence based medicine? Or is it?

          • SporkParade

            Ooh, strawman fallacy! The risk to vaccinated children is low, but still higher than 0 because no vaccine is 100% effective. The purpose of the rules is 1) to protect children who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons and 2) to stop the disease from spreading throughout society in general since schools are huge breeding grounds during any kind of epidemic.

          • Robert

            Someday, some of you will change their minds when someone close to you will be negatively affected by a vaccine (your children or grandchildren). Then when you will raise this issue, your dear doctor will tell you there is no way it could be related to vaccine. And even if they think that is the case, these doctors or medical personal will be too afraid to mention it, since they will be punished by the medical associations. And they will be too scared to give you an exemption, and then you will try to fix it and will see that all others will look to you like you are a weird person. So far most of you were lucky. But when a vaccination will go wrong then you might understand how difficult is to protect your child.

            It is said that you supposed to discuss the risk and benefits with your doctor. But what is the point when the only thing you really hear from doctors/pediatricians is that all vaccines are safe, no side effect is related to vaccines. It is sad customized, per person medicine is gone and all is left is robot doctors that tells you whatever they are required to tell you. And no one is allow to express any other option or to question what is done and why is done and to really weight the risks and benefits with you.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I could say that you will change your mind when your child is admitted to an ICU with a vaccine preventable disease but I thought we were having a scientific conversation. Address my earlier comment and stop moving goalposts.

          • Robert

            Sure, I will read it. It takes time to process the information and form/update an opinion. The thought that comes to my mind is that if you get the disease, it might be treatable and on the plus side, the child will get lifetime immunity. Which is the real heard immunity that will benefit everyone, including infants of that person. As for the severe reactions from vaccines, these seems to be life long impacting, debilitating issues that are impossible to cure. I guess opposition to some vaccine comes from the fact that some doesn’t seem to make sense for some people, like hep B, administered the very second you come into this world. I am not trying to debate this issues scientifically, since I do not have the resources of the state to perform this studies. But whatever makes sense for a large group doesn’t always make sense for every group member. Also, people ignorance, that accept whatever are told by “authorities” are a dangerous kind.

          • momofone

            “Lifetime immunity” kind of pales in comparison with “no lifetime” due to death. “It might be treatable” is not a risk I’m willing to take, having known someone who lost two children to vaccine-preventable illness.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            the child will get lifetime immunity.

            What good is “lifetime immunity” if you have to get the disease? Talk about closing the barn door after the cows get out…

            The goal is to AVOID GETTING THE DISEASE in the first place. Not (just) to avoid getting it twice.

            Getting the disease to become immune seems pretty silly to me.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Is there even any real evidence that vaccination is less likely to give lifelong protection than infection? Certainly there are conditions where vaccination will protect where “natural” immunity will fail, i.e. the VZV will protect against shingles, even if boosters are needed, whereas having chicken pox puts one at lifelong risk.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Actually getting the disease does not guarantee “lifetime” immunity. Sometime immunity wears off, sometimes diseases mutate and sometimes the virus stays in your body in a dormant state and reactivates decades later. Ask anyone who has had shingles about their “lifetime immunity” to the varicella-zoster virus.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I had chicken pox twice as a child. One mild case when I was two and a full blown case when I was seven.

            Where was my life long immunity from the mild case when I was two? Isn’t the “natural” infection supposed to produce a more vigorous response according to the anti-vaxxers?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            And I can’t imagine why anyone who isn’t a complete idiot or outright sadist would object to the hepatitis B vaccine. Hepatocellular carcinoma and chronic hepatitis are both miserable ways to go. Why risk your child’s suffering from either of those when you could eliminate at least one agent that causes those issues with a simple vaccination. And why wait and risk exposure when you can start the vaccination right away?

          • Robert

            I read somewhere that hep b vaccine immunity wanes in about 10 years. Perhaps I am failing to understand it, but what is the point to give it to everyone at birth, since this is transmitted thru blood or sexually. IF that is the case, why is not given at age 12/14 since that seems to be the case when you might start to need it.

            Sure, there will be some at risk babies that need it at birth, but does everyone needs hep B vaccine at birth?

          • Box of Salt

            Richard “I read somewhere that hep b vaccine immunity wanes . . .”

            Wrong. You read earlier studies that antibodies were detected 10 years after immunization, and assumed after that they magically disappeared. Your problem is those studies cannot predict the future.

            In fact, a 2011 review concluded: “There is no need for boosters in immunologically potent persons as long as a full course was adequately administered that respected the recommended timelines, as evidenced by studies conducted up to 20 years after the original immunization course.”
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/1/68.full
            Yep, that means that after 20 years, vaccine immunity is still working!

            “but does everyone needs hep B vaccine at birth?”
            Maybe no, depending on your exposure risk. But please scroll down to the “Transmission” section within this link:
            http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/
            “The hepatitis B virus can survive outside the body for at least 7 days. During this time, the virus can still cause infection”

            How comfortable are you (and yours) that you will never encounter chronic carriers of this virus?

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            So you are against vaccines for Diptheria, Tetanus, Measles, Mumps, Chicken pox, Polio, Hep A, Hep B, Mennigitis, HIB? Have you ever had any of these? Or known anyone who had them? I’m old and I have had several of them,(Chicken px, mumps) I know people who have had Measles(my sister) Meningitis(my brother).
            Why on earth would anyone wish any of these diseases on someone they care about? My sister was 2 when she had the measles and it permanently damaged her eyesight. My brother was 9 when he got meningitis and was in the hospital in intensive care for over a week – he has permanent learning disabilities because of this disease. A cousin got mumps meningitis and nearly died of it.
            And what specific “life long debilitating effects from vaccines are you talking about” From which vaccines?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Robert, it sounds like you don’t understand how vaccines work. Perhaps you could explain how you think they work and then we could correct your flawed understanding.

            You do know how they work, right?

          • Robert

            Frankly I am not sure the scientific community knows exactly how it works. I mean there is the theory that you inject a dead or wakened virus and the body’s immune system build anti-corps for that particular virus so if ever encounters the real virus it has anti-corps ready to attach the invading virus and kill it before it can replicate. I think most of these diseases are viral and not bacterial.

            So, scientific community equates the presence of anti-corps with immunity. I think this connection is believed but not necessary equal.

            It would be really really good if vaccine would work and not have any side effects. But that unfortunately is not the case.

            It is really unfortunate also that it appears that certain auto-immune diseases started to increase in a pattern that seems to match some of the vaccination schedule changes. ALso is unfortunate that so many children have so many allergies, much more it seems to me than 30 years ago. Also, seems like a fact that children overall health is lower in US comparing with other children in comparable other countries around the world. These all things are really important and we need to do whatever we can to find these issues and fix it. Unfortunately, medical establishment doesn’t seem to me to be really motivated in addressing these issues and find the truth. Unless pressed from the rest of society, nothing seems to happen to go and find answers for these issues.

            And these are about our children which I am sure is each parent’s top priority.

          • Who?

            Patterns are everywhere. Here in Australia, consumption of organic food and driving suvs have both increased on a similar curve with autism diagnoses. Coincidence? I have my own opinion, you are of course entitled to yours.

            Correlation is not causation.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Frankly I am not sure the scientific community knows exactly how it works.

            And how many immunologists have you talked to to make this conclusion? How many immunology classes have you taken, how many papers have you read, and how many conferences have you attended?

            What do you even know about the state of knowledge of the scientific community with respect to vaccination?

            That “you are not sure” how much the scientific community knows only begs the question of what you know, not what they know.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In other words, you don’t have a clue.

            I suggest that you learn some basic immunology if you ever expect to be taken seriously by anyone besides your equally ignorant anti-vax buddies.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I think this connection is believed but not necessary equal.

            Source????? If anything there is inmunity with low antibodies titers.

            This is not how vaccines work. There is something you do not talk about and probably do not understand. It is called herd inmunity and it is vital for vaccines to work. That is why there is in public health interest to do not let unvaccinated children attend school and be with other children.

            And by the way, it is Dr. Blanco, I hold an MD and a PhD.

          • Robert

            “Children under two years of age do not consistently develop immunity following vaccination.”

            source is: http://archives.who.int/vaccines/en/pneumococcus.shtml

            If vaccines work, why would anyone be concerned about un-vaccinated children?

            And Dr. Blanco, I will constantly ignore your show of superiority where you keep implying that anyone questioning vaccination issues is either retarded or with an evil agenda.

          • Nothing is without potential side effects. I don’t see you complaining about medications having side effects, even in children. smh

          • demodocus

            The child *probably* will get a lifetime immunity, just like with vaccines, only with vaccines, the risk of dying or going blind/deaf/sterile/whatever while acquiring that immunity is dramatically lower.
            My husband is blind because his mom caught rubella when she was pregnant. Now, I don’t know if Grandma didn’t get MIL vaccinated, if the childhood cancer messed with her immunity, or if she just never developed one to rubella, but whichever it is, it still rather sucks. MIL actually *cheered* when our boy received his MMR 3 days after he turned 1. I’m totally deaf in one ear because of scarlet fever, but hey, I survived and I (probably) have lifetime immunity, right?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Oh my gosh that’s awful… People really don’t remember when these types of side effects were common, do they?

            My mom’s sister went from perfect vision to nearly legally blind practically overnight after she got meningitis. It was really bizzare. Had to get the coke bottle glasses.

            My grandfather on my dad’s side wasn’t sure when he met my grandma if he was sterile or not after he got the mumps. Fortunately for my existence he wasn’t sterile. But it was definitely a worry for him.

            Mom was severely injured by the chicken pox of all things. It’s why I tend to derisively snort when people say chicken pox is a harmless illness. Mom got the chicken pox when she was an older teenager in the seventies. Her symptoms were insane. She had so many pox you couldn’t have put a pin between them. She looked like a burn victim. The rash was all over inside her mouth and down her throat. She could barely open her eyes.

            Her symptoms were so intense and with so many small pustules, even though she had rashes on the palms of her hands and soles of her feet, the hospital had her isolated and tested for small pox just in case it was an odd presentation. Nope, just “run of the mill” chicken pox. It was touch and go for a long time and they was talk of if she’d fully recover if she recovered at all.

            She recovered but even forty years later she still carries the scars. Literally. All the pustules caused severe depigmentation of her skin. It’s most visible on her face and the top of her arms. Just this smattering of little, stark white dots very close together. She has always worn foundation or tinted bb cream for as long as I can remember because it left her skin tone so uneven. Even her skin texture is uneven.

            When my sister and I got chicken pox as children, before there was a vaccine, she was relieved. We wouldn’t get it as a teenager like she did and go through that hell. She was nervous about the chicken pox vaccine until there was proof people kept their immunity and it didn’t wane in the teenage years to put them at risk of what she experienced. That’s the only time I’ve heard her be skeptical of a vaccine and when it was shown that there wasn’t a risk in the adult and teenage years her skepticism ceased.

          • My husband had chicken pox as an *adult*. He was quite ill and ended up scarred for life with raised scars all over, especially his torso. I was lucky to have a moderately severe case at age 7 and only one scar (eyelid crease). Caladryl was rather new in stores, and Mom was very happy to use it. IIRC, it helped a bit. The vaccine came out when I was in college, I think, and we were impressed in our nursing class with the fact that it existed.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            So let me get this straight: you have an opinion about a law. Your opinion is based on wrong facts, like “there has not been demostrated transmission of measles to vaccinated school children in schools”. When I show you with real scientific citations that the facts you based your thinking are wrong “you are going to think about it”.

            In the meanwhile you have said that we will change our opinión when our kids get sick. And then, when I challenge what you think you, again, change the goalposts and talk about other vaccine.

            Let me tell you what I think about you:
            – you have no idea about what science is. I citated three papers. I read them (all of them) today in less than 45 min and they are not about my field of research. If you are not able to do that, probably you have no idea of how to read scientific papers.
            – you make assumptions and criticize and attack people instead of trying to learn. That is not what real scientists do. Do you know what I thought when I read your question? I thought: great! A new question! I get a pubmed search!
            – you have an agenda and will try to fit anything into that agenda. Good luck with that approach. Science is not like that and does not work like that. There is nothing wrong with not being able to analize and read science. There is nothing wrong with being unable to produce scientific data, as there is nothing wrong with being unable to fix a car or a water tap (I have no idea about cars) but there IS something wrong thinking that you know a lot about something that you have no idea: it is dangerous. As dangerous as me fixing a car.

          • Robert

            This is a low level personal attack that is not worth answering since it doesn’t benefit anyone.

            The reason I didn’t responded to your points today, is because I read your message in the morning, I had to go to work, I had to spend time with children in the afternoon, cook in the evening and now only late at night I got a bit of time to use the computer.

            I don’t think I have an agenda. I just shared my own experiences and opinions with the medical field. I didn’t talk about other people experience.

            I don;t have a problem with the doctors, I think they are nice people. Myself I am afraid of medical organizations. I think the problems with the medical system is because of the medical organizations that declare certain topics as ‘indisputable’ and anyone that questions it is considered persona non-grata.
            That is not science. In the science that I know people keep looking and improving the knowledge base.

          • Who?

            No one has ‘declared’ anything. Years of research over many countries and cohorts have come to the conclusion that vaccines are way, way, way safer than the diseases they protect against. If you want a bit of anecdata, go and check out some modern graveyards that aren’t full of groups of children who all died within weeks of each other of vpds, or hospitals that are no longer full of people in iron lungs, or talk to doctors who have never seen a case of tetanus.

            If it wasn’t for the appalling fraud Wakefield I think the world would be a lot further along understanding both autism and the effects of vaccines.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Lower than saying we will change our minds because our children or grandchildren will have a vaccine side effect?

            Nice to know. Someone saying my 8 month old will get sick or die is more acceptable than saying my opinion on someone’s behaviour without namecalling at all. I just said I think that you have no idea what science is and I stand by my word. It is not namecalling and nothing I have not heard myself on a professional scenario, where it was not considered harrassment by my colleagues.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            It’s not a personal attack. It’s a statement of fact; you are ignorant about the topic and therefore your opinion is worthless.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Everyone gets sick” is not herd immunity.

          • SporkParade

            I’m given the list of known vaccine side effects every single time my child is vaccinated. And I’m told to wait 20 minutes after every vaccine to make sure he doesn’t have an allergic reaction. These are diseases that kill millions of children across the world every year, mostly in places where families don’t have access to vaccines. What vaccine reaction is possibly scarier than death?

          • Who?

            I’m sorry you’re so frustrated and angry. Perhaps you need to find doctors with whom you can develop a better rapport. If you ‘know’ vaccines are always bad and dangerous, you are going into consultations with your mind made up, which can make it difficult to hear and respond to a nuanced message.

            Vaccine damage risk is around 1 in a million. For that one, a tragedy of course. But a child is far more likely to be in a bad accident on the way to or from the doctor than be injured by a vaccine administered during a visit.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym


            some of you will change their minds when someone close to you will be negatively affected by a vaccine

            Been there, done that, didn’t change my mind. In fact, I got my kid vaccinated with the vaccine I had an adverse reaction to. Why shouldn’t I?

            In my case, I wasn’t even sure that I couldn’t get the third in the series but my doctor recommended that I not get it. Despite her supposed transformation into a robot who feared punishment from her associates. So, sorry, your comment is, again, not supported by actual facts.

          • Nick Sanders

            Why do you think lying is the right way to make your point?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            My daughter did have a moderate reaction to her first gardasil vaccine. The doctor in no way was afraid to say it was a vaccine reaction. She told me how important it is to report such reactions so they can be tracked. It was temporary and nothing at all like cervical cancer. She finished the series with no more problems. The whole doctors are afraid to report vaccine reactions is a machination of the antivaxx movement.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            There are plenty

            http://www.archpublichealth.com/content/71/1/17

            One case in a vaccinated child. In Ireland. School transmission.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1486406/?page=4

            Canada.

            http://m.pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/6/1287.long

            USA cases on vaccinated children on a school.

            Recent references, developed countries. I did not use the developing countries data and did not get anything before 1995. If you use developing countries the amount of evidence is unbelievable. If you use earlier citations the same happens.

            Apart from that there are children that have a real medical exemption. I think they should be able to attend school safely.

          • Robert

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm

            Canada.

            This study cited here is not about the unvaccinated children giving measles to vaccinated children. This study was about the fact that vaccine doesn;t seem to work if given in a dose at or before 12 months.

            It does look unrelated to what we were discussing. Please clarify why you think is relevant.

            On the contrary, it shows that medical field didn’t know how the vaccine works and learned from this study that it didn’t work as expected. and that a second dose is needed later.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            You asked: Was there any case of such diseases transmissions from the unvaccinated to vaccinated children in the school environment?

            This article demostrates just that. Most of the cases were in unvaccinated children, 33% of the cases could have been avoided with a proper vaccination. And those were the cases spreading the disease as the authors of the paper say. And, let me tell you, if you knew something about public health you would understand, that would have meant no outbreak at all or a much smaller outbreak.

          • Robert

            http://m.pediatrics.aappublica

            USA cases on vaccinated children on a school.

            This study also is not about un-vaccinated children bringing the disease to vaccinated children. Is again about the fact that immunity from vaccines wanes primarily and booster shots are needed. The mechanics of how vaccine works, how well it works and side effects are not really known when the vaccines are introduced. Most is learn after the fact from observing what happens and adjusting the process.

            Again, I fail to see the link between what we were discussing and this cited study. I think Ms Blanco quoted this studies without reading it carefully.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I accessed this paper through my institution. I am afraid you will need to pay to read it fully and see that there were some children that got the disease from unvaccinated individuals.

          • Azuran

            The authorities are not overly worried about unvaccinated children giving the disease to vaccinated children, although possible, it is very rare. They are mainly worried about unvaccinated children giving it to other unvaccinated children. Which is what happens when you put a bunch of unvaccinated children together, like at school for example. It’s to protect unvaccinated children from the decision of their families and in turn to protect those who cannot receive the vaccine, because of age or health reasons.

        • yugaya

          Benefits of removing one person’s tonsils or foreskin are NOT a matter of public health. Tonsillectomy or circumcision do not prevent any disease as deadly or as contagious as measles, polio or pertussis.

          Next question?

          • Besides, tonsillectomy is a non-trivial surgery with a rather uncomfortable recovery. I had a tonsillectomy at 26 because antibiotics didn’t cure my 4th bout of tonsillitis, so my ENT specialist took them out still infected. He sounded almost cheerful when he told me I’d be miserable for 2 weeks. I was. Don’t get it done unless you need it done. Ouch.

    • Nick Sanders

      S277 does not mandate vaccines.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      If that was the case they would stop producing vaccines all together so they could make more money off treating diseases.

  • KarenJJ

    So people just want safer vaccines and aren’t massive conspiracy theorists or nutty, obsessive types that will latch onto one small angle to exploit their own fears.. SAFER VACCINES everyone! You and all your 30,0000 friends/pharma shills.

    • Montserrat Blanco

      Everybody wants safer vaccines. Merck wants safer vaccines. We have safer vaccines than 20 years ago and we will have better and safer vaccines in 20 years time. In the meanwhile you and your kids should get the vaccines currently available because they are much safer than having the diseases.

      We will also have better treatments for myocardial infarction in 20 years time but I have not seen yet anybody claiming to do not get treatment for it when they get to the ER.

      By the way, if you talk to someone at Big Pharma, please do tell them to pay me. I am tired of living in a rented apartment and buying at a discount supermarket.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        Indeed. Back when we were vaxxing against smallpox, it was accepted initially that a certain (small) percentage of those vaccinated would die from vax-related complications, but that that was a better option than having hundreds of thousands die in a smallpox epidemic. They eventually developed a safer smallpox vaccine with a lower death rate, and then, when (thanks to vaccines!) smallpox was all but eliminated, we didn’t have to vax against it anymore. Awesome, no? Wouldn’t it be cool if we could do that with polio, measles, et all?

        • We got very close with polio. The USA was almost measles-free due to good vaccine coverage also.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Re polio: don’t I know it. 🙁 At this point, I don’t think we have a chance of eliminating it until the middle east settles down somewhat…and who knows when *that* will be.

          • SporkParade

            Depends. How does ISIS feel about vaccines?

          • Who?

            My guess is they don’t like them. Symbol of the evil West, messing with skyfriend’s plans.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Hard to tell, as they seem really fragmented on beliefs about education. In some areas, they’re banning the kids from learning science of any kind on the ground that it’s “western” and therefore evil, while in others, they’re opening schools for both boys and girls. At a guess, they probably lean more anti than not, if only because their practices make keeping any sort of medical system up all but impossible.

  • Kerri Lee

    I am on the list, but even better, I can tell you exactly how I got on the list. I belong to this Facebook Group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/AntiAlternativeMedicine/
    The entire list of members has been copied onto the “troll” list. It is not even necessarily an anti-vax Facebook group, it just opposes alternative medicine. But I have searched enough names to be confident. Everyone who joined that Facebook group more than 1 month ago is on the “troll” list. The newer members are not.
    The group only has about 2700 members, so that is not the entire “troll” list, but I suspect the rest of the list was made in a similar manner.

    • Kerri Lee

      I should add that it is a closed group, so they must have joined the group in order to see the list of members. I don’t see any members who joined around that time that look suspicious, but I can only see current members so if they joined and then left or got kicked out I wouldn’t be able to tell.

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m in that group too. 🙂

  • Enfant Terrible

    I’m not a doctor, nurse, immunologist, journalist or even a blogger, but I’m on the list! Under my own name, of course. I must be doing something right.

  • Moose McNuggets

    I see my name listed, although it’s a fairly common one so I can’t be sure it’s actually me. Still, I’ll gladly forward myself anyway.

  • Silverdart60

    I’m not on the list (which gives me the sads). But I’m curious why the press hasn’t picked up on this. If you thought Government was Big Brother, they have nothing on the anti-vaxx pro-disease crowd!

    • Enfant Terrible

      The press can always ask the NSA for a copy.

  • Brian Urbancic

    On Sunday morning, I volunteered at a March of Dimes event. After returning home, I saw I made the Anti-Vax list. How perfectly appropriate.

  • Ellen Mary

    I made it just 1 month after completing my children’s catch up schedule! Ironically when I was AV I feared being put on a list. Very surprising that now I have actually been put on a literal list, it is for being Pro!

  • Rod C Craven

    I have 4 of my 5 profiles listed. Dunno how one missed, because under that one I posted 2 brilliant coments on Dorey’s AVN before being banned, set that profile as admin of 3 pro-vax pages and posted a bunch of random pro-vax stuff here and there. They slipped up.

    • yugaya

      I’m so boring. I only have one fb account and it is under my real name.

  • Lyssette Hilsz

    Nemesis 18726!!!

  • indigosky

    I’m on the list, and all I did was join a few pro-vax FB groups. I never have commented. Guess just being a member makes you a troll. These people are delusional.

  • Beckasha

    I’m on it 3 times!!! Yay sock accounts!

    • I lol’d. At least they aren’t doing their homework.

  • Kerri Clarke

    I’m on the list… and I’ve never felt so honoured.

  • I’m on the list but I’m disappointed that Cody The Religion Hating Dog isn’t there, because he was the first “person” banned from the AVN’s Facebook group, initiating a great purge and bannination. All he did was point out that he had a microchip which had caused him no harm and ask Meryl Dorey if she had an excuse for being barking mad, his being that he is a dog.

  • mabelcruet

    I’m not on the list! Right, that’s it-I’m off to troll a few anti-vaxxer websites. Be right back…

  • UNCDave

    I made the list! So did my wife!

  • anh

    I’m on it under my real name. I’m legit unhappy about that due to anonymity concerns. My only guess is I’ve shared pro-vax memes on FB? Not cool, nutjobs

    • Rod C Craven

      See if you can get TAVS to give you the source of where it came from. Keeping databases like this actually violates FB community standards. Whoever created this database should be shitting themselves in case people do get to lodge complaints.

  • Deborah

    I am so jealous. How can I get on the list????

  • A

    Congratulations!

  • Burgundy

    Just found out I am on the list too. I didn’t even do that much.

  • peanutmama

    heh i made the list. whoop whoop. someone has a little too much time on their hands methinks.

    • Mac Sherbert

      Am I the only that thinks, if they were going to do this they should have at least made the list alphabetical by last name? Or made it searchable several different ways?

  • Bugsy

    OT, but cringe-worthy in its lack of science. This is from the “Sanctimommy Said What?” Facebook group.

    The original post received 3 likes. Wow.

    “Rabies as a disease has never actually been established or proven. No causative virus or bacteria has ever been found and in investigating the history of Rabies you find it hard to consider it to be anything more than a psychosomatic disorder – you frighten yourself to death with fear of this terrible affliction.

    Rabies presents primarily as a toxic effect, a neurotoxin. No such toxins or active virus or bacteria has ever been found in supposedly rabid animals (parasites, toxins, malnutrition, and more – yes, a rabies organism – no) but certain metabolic responses to very strong emotion, especially fear, do.

    Fear results in the release of toxic metabolites that cause neurological effects (like with hyperventilation), tingling in the extremities, loss of sensation, twitching of muscles. Oh no, I have rabies. Bang, you have a biofeedback loop set up. Result, you die from rabies.

    Merck commissioned a study into the actual causes of rabies a few years back (probably quite a few now) so they could develop a more effective vaccine. This study was conducted in China. A lot of these type studies are now done in China for several reasons, notably that few people ever come across Chinese studies and even less can read them. I.E. they are easier to hide (such as the one that showed that selenium alone has a greater success rate than the best of modern oncology, or that wormwood, a herb, can clear up leukaemia in as little as six hours).

    Bottom line here based on biochemistry – vitamin C binds to viral protein and prevents further replication thus ending the viral infection. Lyssavirus is a virus, not as big a problem as made out.

    Second point, vitamin C is a very potent general detoxifying agent, it does neutralize tetanus toxin, maybe not immediately but it does do it and with far less risk of adverse event.”

    • Medwife

      Lol.

      • Mac Sherbert

        Oh, but it’s not funny. These people are out there and they are dangerous. Their dogs are running loose in neighborhoods where our children play. There are cases of rabies in wildlife and one or two domestic animals every year in my state. They have low-cost to free rabies vaccine clinics and yet the vaccination rate in some areas for dogs is still low.

        • Medwife

          It’s just so ludicrous. It’s hard to believe they really believe what they’re writing.

          • Mac Sherbert

            I know that’s what you meant. It’s so easy to read that and think what in the world…It almost sounds like a joke or something. It’s just sad that they are serious.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym


          the vaccination rate in some areas for dogs is still low.

          Because the owners are worried about the dogs becoming autistic? It’s true that my dogs haven’t said a coherent word since they got their most recent boosters…

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            For making me actually for reals lol, I award you one internet.

    • demodocus

      They posted it on Things Anti-Vaxxers Say, too. So science-y, so wrong.

    • Karen in SC

      I would force those people to watch a video of a person dying from rabies. It’s horrible. The movie about Dr. Louis Pasteur, who created the vaccine, is heart wrenching at times.

      A group of men from Russia traveled to France to beg him for the vaccine he was working on for dogs. They volunteered for the test, because without it , they knew they would die. Brave men and thank goodness for Pasteur.

      I watched this movie one night – I believe the actor won an Oscar – and was so wound up I couldn’t sleep all night. SCIENCE is quite astounding at times.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        I’d never heard of a movie about Pasteur before, or that story. Time to go adjust the Netflix queue…thanks!

        • Karen in SC

          It’s from 1936, and there is even a childbirth. I found it on Amazon on DVD and probably will purchase.

      • yugaya

        There was a tendency to print out very graphic public health warning booklets where I grew up. I remember the one on rabies, it still gives me nightmares. All the stages of the disease were documented by pictures of animals and humans who died from it. You don’t ever want to see what a human being in fury stage of rabies infection looks like. In a cage.

        • momofone

          But don’t you understand? They frightened themselves into needing the cage! (I can’t even be halfway convincing with that.)

    • Montserrat Blanco

      This people are really dangerous.

    • yugaya

      If there is a single VPD that no one should ever fuck with in terms of vaccines it is rabies. I hope whoever wrote this never gets the opportunity to test their tin foil hat theories in real life, for their own sake.

      • Nick Sanders

        Yeah, when the survival numbers, not the rate but actual numbers, are in the single digits, that is some seriously scary shit.

        • demodocus

          Someone has actually survived?! holy cow

          • DaisyGrrl

            Five whole people out of 36 who received a specific treatment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol

            I’m still getting the vaccine if a bat so much as looks at me.

          • Elizabeth A

            Damn skippy.

            My mom’s a doctor, and my sisters and I read MMWR at the breakfast table for years. The annual human rabies rundown was a macabre piece of entertainment if your sister was hogging the funny pages, and a compelling argument for vaccination.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            No kidding.
            I live in one of the top 5 most highly populated metro areas in the US. Chatting with DD’s pediatrician’s nurse, I learned something new, different, and…disturbing about one of the historic areas of town.
            Me: “So we were driving past (area’s name redacted) and wow, there are some beautiful older homes there! Must be hell to keep up, but man, if I had unlimited funds…”
            Her, smirking: “Honey, you still wouldn’t want to live there.”
            Me: “Yeah, I’m sure people can be snobby, but the neighborhood is so beautiful, and..”
            Her: “It’s not the neighbors, honey, it’s the rabies.”
            Me: “The WHAT?!”
            Yeah. Apparently a LOT of those houses, being older and near a water source (tasty bugs), have a bat problem. As in, Mommy will bring Junior in with scratches of unknown origin, and a bit of digging will find that there are bats in the attic adjoining Junior’s room. Cue calls to the local authorities for a supply of rabies vaccine yesterday, etc. Thus far, they haven’t (thank God) had a live case, but it makes the staff understandably twitchy, to the point that they’ve been telling parents preemptively who live in the area to please call an exterminator regularly.
            Note to self: even if we won the lottery (unlikely, given that we don’t play it) we will *not* be buying a house in that neighborhood.

          • Nick Sanders
    • A

      “You frighten yourself (…) with fear” Well, duh.

      • What else would we frighten ourselves with? Unicorn farts? (Do they smell like Skittles?)

        • Rod C Craven

          SSW actual stands for Self Serving Wankers.

    • MaineJen

      “wormwood, a herb, can clear up leukaemia in as little as six hours”

      GET OFF MY INTERNET. Seriously. Off.

      • yugaya

        Gett off my planet would be even better.

        • I want that garbage out of the *Local Group*.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Now, now, I feel perfectly happy with the idea that the writer use wormwood and no “modern”* onocologic drugs for leukemia, should he/she get leukemia. Recommending someone else kill him/herself with wormwood and rejection of chemo, that I’m less happy with.

        *”Modern” is in quotes because the drugs used for some forms of leukemia are very old indeed. And the author is partly right in that there are good oncologic drugs coming out of China. They are among the “modern” drugs that s/he is rejecting.

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        I’m going to be needing this pic on standby, aren’t I?

    • yugaya

      ” No causative virus or bacteria has ever been found”

      Hi there stupid. Meet the Rabies virus, one of the most direful killers in the history of mankind. Introduction courtesy of CDC, from their web page that explains what rabies is to children http://www.cdc.gov/rabiesandkids/virus.html :

      “Rabies is caused by a virus. A virus is a very tiny germ. You can only
      see that germ if you have a special microscope. Here´s a picture of the
      rabies virus:”

      • Bugsy

        Yep…granted it’s from the evil CDC. Why on earth would the OP believe anything that comes out of Big Pharma-related governmental organizations?

        • yugaya

          It is damn hard to find alternative sources of info on rabies that would work for child-like level of understanding in adults. 😛

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Take those photoshopped monstrosities out of here! You couldn’t even be bothered to color it! Pfft, amateur.*

        *This is a facetious comment. I shouldn’t need this disclaimer but recent events and contamination of woo to this comment space have dramatically reduced my expectations of tone comprehension.

        • yugaya

          I’m a cheap shill in a low-cost destination, we only get poor quality easily disputed Big Pharma lies to spread around. :)))

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      notably that few people ever come across Chinese studies and even less can read them.

      What the…China is the most populous country on the planet. More people can read the various Chinese languages than any other language, yes, including English. (That being said, a lot of Chinese researchers publish in English as well in order to gain an international audience, making research in China easy for both Chinese and non-Chinese to access…the opposite of “easy to hide”.) Not only is the writer’s understanding of medicine poor, s/he doesn’t understand geography either.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      …I think this sums up my reaction better than a long winded rant.

      • Bugsy

        Lol. I sent the post to my retired father as well, and his response was simply: “Why are you reading this shit?”

  • Bugsy

    This list certainly puts the “blocked” list on my Facebook account in perspective!

  • Rachel

    The mere fact that this list is so incredibly long should tell anti-vaxxers something…

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Contrast that with the “Scientists and Doctors Who Question Vaccines” list that gets thrown about. It’s what, 500 names long? If you include the nurses and nutritionists and TV weathermen (oh wait, that’s the global warming list)

  • Guesty

    I made a list like this in high school. It included a picture of my ex-boyfriend with a needle stabbed through his heart. But see, then I grew up.

  • Megan

    This is why I’m glad I don’t have FB. It makes me that much harder to find and put on a list.

  • Isilzha

    This is many shades of creepy though. Who does this? What’s the point? People who make lists like this don’t usually have a happy ending in mind for the people on it.

    • Ask any female game developer or reporter. Razzafrazzing Gamergate…

      • If you ask a bunch of female developers or reporters, you’ll get a variety of responses.
        Has it occurred to you that many people might be angry with her simply because she’s dishonest?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          So you’re admitting that certain people are angry and that’s why she’s on the list. Are all 30K or so people on the list “dishonest”? What is the purpose of making a list of people that one is angry with?

          • We’re talking about something completely different here.
            I’ve edited my post to make it clearer.

          • Enemy lists are insidious. Too many of us remember McCarthy.

            This one, just makes me shake my head. “Ooh! Vaccines are the big bogeyman!”

        • Then they’ve silenced any valid argument with their abusive behavior.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I can’t upvote since I haven’t given Disqus my info, but I agree.

          • Who are “they”? Are you putting all her critics into one basket?

          • Then THEY’VE silenced any valid argument with THEIR abusive behavior. If someone isn’t abusive or acting in an abusive manner, it should be obvious that I’m not referring to them. The innocent with legitimate grievances should be irritated as well because their attempts at legitimizing their movement have been stained by the anti-social behavior of poorly behaving ideologues.

          • If someone isn’t abusive or acting in an abusive manner, it should be obvious that I’m not referring to them
            Which is approximately 80% of participants. Are you still going to dismiss them out of hand because of the trolls?
            The innocent with legitimate grievances should be irritated as well
            Agreed.

          • I don’t know, does that sound like I’m saying or are you being intentionally obtuse?

          • It sounds like you’re acknowledging that gamergate may not just be about misogyny and trolling.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            It certainly seemed to me to be about misogyny and trolling.

          • I can see how it could appear this way to an outsider and there’s no disputing that there’s been some very ugly behaviour by some of her opponents.

            But for the majority it’s a simple issue of honesty.
            The main thrust of her work is that video games can cause sexism for
            which she has provided zero evidence. (Jack Thompson was rightfully
            derided when he made similar arguments many years ago)
            It’s very clear she hasn’t played many of the games she reviews and has cherry picked examples to fit her prejudices.
            She has refused to participate in a moderated public debate and will only grant interviews to mainstream non-tech journalists who lack the background to properly scrutinise her claims.

            But the worst part, for me at least, is that she has maligned the entire gaming community as retrograde frothing
            misogynists when in reality they’re a very inclusive and diverse
            demographic.
            She reminds me an awful lot of Gina Crosley with her opportunistic faux feminism and playing the victim card whenever someone calls her on her shit.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            As far as I can tell, the gaming community proceeded to demonstrate that they were misogynists. I found the behavior that I observed to be utterly deplorable. People whom I know within the tech industry (male and female) also thought that she was harassed mercilessly by misogyinsts.

          • … she was harassed mercilessly by misogyinsts.
            I’m not disputing this but for her to characterise all dissent to her work as stemming from misogyny is incorrect and manipulative.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Isn’t that a bit like complaining that not all lynchings were due to racism?

          • No, it’s like saying not everyone hates Sarah Palin because she’s a woman but because of the stupid things that come out of her mouth.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            A woman complains that sexism is the reason for criticism of her work and is then treated in a crudely misogynistic fashion by men and you’re arguing that’s just a coincidence?

          • A woman made the blanket claim that all critics of her work were misogynists and then some of those critics responded in a crude misogynistic manner.
            It’s strange that I have to say this to you of all people. You’ve seen first hand in your own field how feminism can be coopted in the most bizarre of ways.

            Maybe I can put this another way:
            How would you respond to someone who made wild unsubstantiated assertions (video games cause sexism) without any evidence, and then refused to publicly debate the issue?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In what way were her claims wild and unsubstantiated?

          • She stated that video games cause sexism which I think is a wild claim.
            She doesn’t attempt to provide any.evidence to support this because there is none.
            Jack Thompson was saying similar things many years back – that video games can affect real life behaviour – and was rightfully condemned as an idiot.
            Anita however seems to get a free pass because she invokes the feminist angle.

            You’ve said previously that you encouraged your kids to play video games, yet they seem to have turned into normal functional adults.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Where and when did Sarkeesian say that?

            My kids were all video game fanatics and I have no problem with video games.

          • I’ll see if I can find a transcript. I don’t really feel like wading through her videos again.

          • KarenJJ

            I watched a couple of videos and thought the discussion on token female characters and tropes was really interesting. I hadn’t looked into that much before. I’m not a gamer beyond tetris, so am external to that side, but I do work in a very male dominated tech-based career so a lot of the “thoughtless” style of sexism and culture as well as the “tokenism” of trying to include women by pandering to stereotypical notions is stuff I deal with a lot. Plus a lot of kids cartoons really bother do annoy me with the use of “female props” like bows, eyelashes, high heels, aprons etc to identify a “female” character. The culture of IT workplaces and gaming can be very intimidating to a female outsider and young girls. I don’t know how much of the outrage was manufactured, but the reaction was very very weird.

          • This is fair. You’ve gone to the source material and drawn your own conclusions.
            I can’t argue with that. Have you looked at any of the critiques available?

          • KarenJJ

            Do you have links to any you’d recommend? Even the Gamer show my husband watches (Good Games on ABC tv in Australia) had a segment saying they couldn’t even work out what was going on but that it seemed to be a reaction to much loved games being critiqued in a way that people weren’t used to and that the reaction beyond that was surprising and upsetting. My impression from that episode was that games were becoming a cultural force and as a maturing art/story form, games were now becoming “fair game” (sorry for the pun) for the sort of critique that other cultural artefacts (books/movies/paintings/music etc) are subjected to.

          • Who said I didn’t think that? I never said that. Your arguments are flawed because you’re taking for granted the super obvious fact that if a large number of people behave like jackasses, their movement isn’t going to be taken seriously.

            I don’t know shit about shit about this whole thing. Gaming journalism is stupid and I don’t care, just like I don’t care about movie reviewers. They often times don’t agree with me about things I love and go on about purely technical or opinion matters with little grey area. I love movies and I love video games, so you can see how this would be a problem.

            If someone tells me they’re a gamer gater, I’m going to back off because as someone with a vagina who plays vidja, I’ve been told I’m a fat dyke, a whore, or a cunt about to be raped too many times to have not developed a sensitive trigger finger on the block button. More often than not, those people are GG’ers and assume that I’m a feminazi cunt who needs to go die because reasons that are stupid.

          • MaineJen

            “NOT ALL MEN” do you even hear yourself?

            And BTW, as soon as you dismiss your opponent as a “slut,” your argument is invalid. (See: your comment about Zoe Quinn above.)

            Do you hear the similarity between “But not alllllllll male gamers threatened that female reporter with death!” and “But not allllllll CPMs ignore safety standards, take on high risk cases they have no business overseeing and refuse to transfer care even when both mother and baby’s lives are in danger.”

            When you have to make the “But not alllllll…” argument, there is something inherently flawed and wrong-headed about the culture you’re defending. Do you agree?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            When you have to make the “But not alllllll…” argument, there is something inherently flawed and wrong-headed about the culture you’re defending. Do you agree?

            Or, you could just note that’s Bofa’s Law

            In fact, I like your description so much I am going to co-opt your words:

            Bofa’s Law
            If your defense of a group consists of “Not all of them are bad,” there is something inherently flawed about the culture you are defending.

          • May I share your law on Twitter? I have friends who’d love your phrasing, and I want the attribution to remain attached for all time.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Bofa’s Law is in the public arena, so go ahead and quote it. I’ve invoked it in other places (where I am not known as TBotS).

          • Silicon Shaman’s Corollary: if your defence is “some of them aren’t all bad” then it’s time to leave…

          • Come on now Bofa. You’re using the wording of a Twitter hashtag to decide that an entire community is flawed?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Come on now Bofa. You’re using the wording of a Twitter hashtag to decide that an entire community is flawed?

            Bofa’s Law was established years ago. YOU were the one who used the “but not all….” defense.

            Maybe you should reconsider your argument if that is the best you can do.

          • This may be the most ridiculous post so far.
            Do you actually have any experience of the gaming culture, or is this all second hand outrage?

            as soon as you dismiss your opponent as a “slut,” your argument is invalid

            I did not call Zoe Quinn a slut, and I would never use such a term for anyone anyway.
            LIbrarianSarah seemed to have mixed up Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn.

            But not alllllllll male gamers…
            But not allllllll CPMs…

            Did you really just liken male gamers as a group to a bunch of semi-educated ignorant fools?
            So there’s no variation between them huh, they’re ALL like that, even the sons and brothers of other posters here?
            Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “But not all midwives” because, you know, most midwives are actually intelligent self-aware individuals despite the actions of a minority.

            When you have to make the “But not alllllll…” argument
            It really depends on how it’s being used and by whom.
            If only 20% of the group in question are being douchebags, then it’s not an unreasonable point to make.

            Just to be clear, are you saying that there are no legitimate grounds to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian?
            Given that there are well documented instances of corruption and back scratching in journalism as a whole, is it improbable that it also exists within gaming journalism?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Oh I am extremely active in the gaming community and have been since I was a little girl and boys told me I couldn’t play games with them because girls are bad at video games. I met my husband on a Fire Emblem fan site. And I still have to prove my “gaming credentials” to cretins like you or risk being called a fake gamer girl.

            Gamergate supporters are the militant vegans of gaming. You think you’re big and tough and have us running scared from your TRUTH when really the only reason you don’t have more opposition is because we have better things to do. Especially female gamers. We don’t need the female experience in gaming culture mansplaned to us. We live it.

            And now with the doxxing, threats against women, and so forth you’re now crossing into being the anti-vaxxers of the gaming world. Before it was hilariously ineffective. But now you’re endangering the lives of others. And don’t give me the bullshit about how you’re not hurting anyone. I live in Utah. I was far too close to that threat and it was indeed a threat. I know the gun culture here. They would have done it.

            No, not all male gamers are like that. My husband is proof. But there’s still enough of the disgusting attitude I grew up with that when I ask I join a game at a con, I get told they’ll “go easy on me” because I’m a girl. I only started using female specific gamer tags in the last two years because I was tired of “show me your tits!” or “get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich!” Oh and the good loot being taken by guys in Diablo II because they deserve it more than me because I’m a girl and don’t play seriously. I don’t need it. I’ve been playing Diablo II since before some of them were alive.

            If you want to really help gaming culture, women complaining about being treated different isn’t your biggest threat. It’s the fact that for thirty years its only been very, very recently that we’ve felt comfortable enough to voice our displeasure and not be immediately laughed off a game or sileneced all together.

            If you still insist otherwise, go back your echo chamber and play more Call of Duty and Madden. Let the real gamers talk.

          • MaineJen

            The most ridiculous so far? Gosh. I don’t know about all that. I do find it funny, and kindof weird, that you jumped into this discussion all righteously indignant the moment someone made an offhand comment about gamergate. And you don’t have to be a gamer to understand the implications of rape and death threats. And BTW…the fact that “only 20% of tweets” were threatening is not cause for celebration.

          • And you will also note, to continue this derailment a bit further, that those 80% of men who weren’t abusive (assuming those number are correct and for the sake of argument) didn’t stand up against the vocally abusive 20%. No one said “hey dudes, not cool, stop it”. No one said “that’s uncalled for, that’s abusive, that’s rape culture, don’t do that”. No, they sat and watched and said to themselves smugly “not all men are like that!”. Fuck that noise. If you won’t step in and stop such an obvious problem, then you are part of the problem. Not all men? No, but it is an awful lot of them.

            MaineJen is definitely not making a lot of sense on this issue.

        • KarenJJ

          Not really, because I couldn’t get my head around the rest of the crap that was going down.

          • The “crap” you refer to was massively exaggerated and used quite disingenuously by her to deflect legitimate criticism of her work.
            There was an article a while back that looked at Twitter discussion of her work and found something like 80% of tweets were neutral in tone.
            It wouldn’t be the first time a huckster has coopted the language of feminism for their own ends.

          • Fallow

            That time she was temporarily driven out of her home was no big deal, you’re right. The time that threats of a mass shooting drove her out of giving that talk at that college – totally overblown!! All the people who constantly threaten her with “rape you to death” comments – no big deal!. The important thing is, waah someone’s being mean about games, can’t deal, someone’s got to silence the bitch, right?

            Don’t kid yourself. People don’t have to fill her life with rape and death threats over some goddamned dumbass video games. The reason they do is is pure misogyny. The fact that so much of it has been totally public disproves the idea that she’s making it up, too.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Ah come on Fallow, it was only a few itty bitty rape and death threats. Boys will be boys you know. Let’s not forget that the important issue here is that Anita is a slut. Wait no I mean video game journalism standards! Also let’s conveniently overlook the fact that big name developers have been blackmailing video game “journalists” into giving them good reviews for decades. Those companies are run by people with external genitalia so who cares!

            /sarcasm

          • Anita is a slut
            Noone has made this claim. You’re getting her mixed up with Zoe Quinn, and it’s beside the point anyway.
            I mean video game journalism standards
            Is this really so hard for you to believe?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            All in favor of creating a subset of Godwin’s law where instead of Hitler and Nazi comparisons to Gamergate and “It’s about ethics in journalism” say Aye!

          • Aye!

          • threats of a mass shooting
            The police investigated and found there was no credible threat.

            The reason they do is is pure misogyny.
            On what basis do you make this claim?
            It’s blatantly clear that she hasn’t played many of the games she reviews, and continually misrepresents and cherry picks examples to suit her narrative.
            She has also repeatedly refused to participate in a moderated public debate on the issue.

          • Nick Sanders

            Credible or not, it was still a threat that was made.

          • Ok, let’s put this aside for a minute. Do you disagree with my other points?

          • Nick Sanders

            Long story short? Yes.

          • Doxxing and death threats are no big deal, then? Misogyny run rampant. Sigh. Don’t get me started on any other lists, like the Hu-. No. I thought people outgrew this kind of list-making in junior high.

            Go play with the anti-vaxxers and the NCBers.

          • Doxxing and death threats are no big deal, then
            If you think that criticism of her arguments is endorsing doxxing and death threats then you need to learn how to think.
            I thought people outgrew this kind of list-making in junior high
            I’m on this list as well under my Facebook name. But your need to assign people to groups and to prejudge the validity of their arguments based upon the actions of a few is precisely the problem here.
            The mainstream media has lapped up this story because it fits neatly into their preconceived notions of gamers as socially awkward resentful misogynist basement dwelling nerds without actually examining the substance of what is being said.

          • I was thinking of Brianna Wu, actually.

            Do NOT presume to tell me what my needs are.

          • Do NOT presume to tell me what my needs are.
            And yet you’re doing the same thing to an entire body of people. Go figure.

          • No, I am not. Someone other than you or your buddies tell me where I did that. Someone other than you tell me how Anita S. became a topic here. I was discussing lists, and the uses and the dangers inherent.

          • Nick Sanders
          • demodocus

            They did a thing on the PBS Newshour last year, too

          • Nick Sanders

            Let’s see, the first is from a month after it started, hardly enough still relevant to a movement that has been going on for 8 to 9 months now, and had some ugly behind the scenes truths come to light.

            And in fact, wow, all of those are from no later than October of last year. Last I checked, it’s the middle of May. Things have happened, please catch up.

          • Yes they are a little old, although the content still holds.
            On that note, I have a some issues with the links you’ve posted.
            The first focuses almost exclusively on Zoe Quinn and her dysfunctional relationship rather than the broader issue of ethics in gaming journalism. And as you’ve pointed out yourself, things have moved on since then.
            The second is ridiculous.
            The third and fourth are first person accounts.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, they really haven’t moved on. If they had, you wouldn’t have barged in here complaining about Sarkeesian apropos of nothing.
            How is the second ridiculous, and why are the third and fourth invalid simply for being first person accounts? You posted first person accounts as well, I should remind you.

  • https://www.facebook.com/groups/1428267797482177/

    I created a group where we can stand up for vaccination, public health, and the people whose opinions won’t be swayed by mere intimidation.

  • scott cutler

    anyone know who created the list?

    • peanutmama

      someone who has no life

      • MegaMechaMeg

        Seriously. I somehow got onto the list I assume based purely on my being a non commenting member of pro-vax facebook groups.

  • cryolithic

    Yep, I’m on there too.

  • Cobalt

    Now that I finally got the list to load past the middle of the A’s, I present my definitive finding that the list is crap: Bill Nye isn’t on it.

    • Nor is Phil Plait, aka Bad Astronomer. He’s a vocal pro-vaccine sort.

      Ah. They haven’t hit Twitter yet.

      • Fallow

        Do Bill Nye and Phil Plait argue with specific people in their comment sections on their websites, Facebook, or Twitter? I have no idea; I just wonder if the idea was to choose people for the list who will reply to individual antivaxx comments to debunk them.

        • Phil doesn’t argue, he just presents facts, sometimes with snark, sometimes straight, sometimes with humor.

  • Mishimoo

    My blog name is there, but my real name and disqus aren’t, so I’m not sure if they really mean me because it’s a pretty common name.

    • Cobalt

      Some of the names are so obviously bogus (punctuation marks just aren’t that common in names) that I doubt it has any validity at all. It’s just a bunch of random names.

      • cryolithic

        TAVS has said there are some fake names in there so they know if it’s their list showing up elsewhere on the net.

      • Nick Sanders

        TAVS added a few fake names to the list so they could see if people were using the one they posted.

        https://www.tavs.info/2015/05/16/the-anti-vax-troll-list/

        Basically, same idea as a trap street:

        https://www.tavs.info/2015/05/16/the-anti-vax-troll-list/

      • Jason Roder

        Both the names I’ve used on Facebook (it decided that my real name wasn’t real enough and made me change it) are on there. And yes, the first version had punctuation.

    • Elizabeth A

      My real name is on the list, but my real name is also pretty common. They might easily have meant some other Elizabeth A.

  • NatashaO

    ot but have people seen this stunt birth. poor baby.
    http://youtu.be/6gaKTivWROE

    • Jocelyn

      :O

    • Karen in SC

      educated? NO

      • Medwife

        I don’t think she ever heard of an APGAR score. Not that I think ANY woman should be reasonably expected to give an APGAR score to her baby after she’s just birthed it.

        THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE PROFESSIONALS THERE.

    • Allie

      I can’t bring myself to watch, but how is it better to be born (and perhaps die) on a bathroom floor rather than in a fully-equipped hospital? These people disgust me. Their narcissism is astonishing.

    • Medwife

      “It doesn’t hurt anymore!” As she gently rubs the back of her dark purple headed, white bodied, limp baby. That was terrible.

      • Frequent Guest

        That was horrifying. OMG

        • momofone

          Good lord. What an idiot. I was in tears waiting to see if he breathed. That little purple face just about did me in!

          • yugaya

            Baby’s brain cells don’t matter, it’s all about mama’s birth experience, and if she still thinks it’s a good idea to put this outcome on youtube and describe it as “planned, educated” I doubt that much real brain power was involved in the process.

            She is right though that seeing an idiot praise their almost deadly choice of stuntbirth is highly educational.

      • Gatita

        How the fuck does someone so calmly hold the limp, purple body of their newborn? Fucking nightmare.

        • Amy M

          I totally agree. I was watching the time stamps—it appeared to be about 4-5min between the head emerging and the baby crying, with maybe 2-3min with only the head out. In this case that was clearly enough for this poor baby, since he passed a lot of meconium, according to the audio. But yeah, a limp white baby with a dark purple head slithering out onto the floor? How do these people not see the red flags? Where, in her extensive education, was the bit about what color newborns should be within seconds of birth? I’m not a doctor, but I remember that 2 of the criteria for the apgar scores are color and breathing–and that kid had neither for a while there.
          I was going to say I’d be losing my mind if that was me, but I would never have a baby in my bathroom (by choice anyway), and this situation was/would be highly unlikely.

    • “It’s mine!”

      Well, whose baby did she think it was?!?

      • My cat Honor is listening to the baby and giving me the “WTH?” look. I think she doesn’t want one in the house. #HappilySpayed

        • Bugsy

          Oh gosh, we just got past our cat marking the sofa. I’d bet a home birth would cause him to restart that nightmare!

    • Sue

      Kneeling on the bathroom tiles, leaning on the open toilet, AND bright lights – thank goodness for the comforts of home…

    • Bugsy

      Interesting that it’s titled as an _educated_ unassisted birth. As opposed to the home birth moms who don’t educate themselves via online forums & Ina Mae?

    • peanutmama

      that was awful. and the comments! yikes!

  • Wow – I am on the list…does this mean I get a prize?

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    I’m not on the list. I’m sad. I even blog under my real name about anti-vax idiots.

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m sure you are doing the best you can. We can’t all be rockstars.

    • I know, I’m not on there either. I’ve sure tried to qualify!

    • Chris Preston

      I am not on the list either. But that is more likely to be due to not having a facebook profile.

  • mom of almost 3

    The whole concept of the list is so strange. What exactly to they plan to do with this information?

    • Nick Sanders

      They are using it as a preemptive block list.
      https://www.tavs.info/2015/05/16/the-anti-vax-troll-list/

      • yugaya

        Does that mean that when woonacies like Modern Alternative Mama pop up in my suggested fb feed I will no longer be able to see them? That would be a huge improvement of my fb experience.

        • Nick Sanders

          Tell me about it.

        • Chi

          No I think you’ll still be able to see them. You just won’t be able to make comments on the sheer idiocy they’re spouting. I know this because I was banned a while ago from Modern Alternative Mama’s FB page for contradicting her ‘science’ (and boy do I use that term loosely).

          I can still see the crap she posts but I am no longer allowed to comment.

          Oh and yeah, my FB profile is on that list. Time to make a new profile I think.

  • OttawaAlison

    I’m on it though I don’t troll sites. I guess having pro-vaccination views is enough to be consider a troll!

    • rh1985

      me too

  • namaste863

    That is one shit list I wouldn’t mind being on myself! Way to go, Doctor Amy!

    P.S. Sally Field will never live that ridiculous Oscar speech down.

    • Allie

      Oh well, no publicity is bad publicity in Hollywood ; )

  • attitude devant

    The list is so long that they might have saved some time and just listed people who agreed with them….and called everyone NOT on the list a troll.

    (proud to say I made it)

  • Gretta

    Stands and gives a slow clap….

  • araikwao

    Congrats, Dr Amy!!! I hope to achieve such lofty heights one day..

  • Clearly someone didn’t have anything better to do. Like knitting.

  • I reported it because I take shit like this very seriously. I had to leave a much loved job with NARAL because of doxxing, so imagine my surprise when to report that crazy list, I had to provide my real name.

    Sigh. The inmates are running the asylum.

  • NoLongerCrunching

    Holy shit! How am I on this thing? I’m not even a doctor or a nurse, and I post here under a pseudonym. Creepy.

    • fiftyfifty1

      I just checked and I’m on it too. Congrats to me!

    • fiftyfifty1

      Congrats!

    • Squillo

      Me too, under my Real Name(TM)

    • Who?

      Hate to say it may not be you. The list looks weird to me-no double ups, no asian names that I saw in my brief sweep through it.

      I’d suggest there are a few high profile names on there and most of the rest are people who gave some anti-vaxxer a wedgie in grade 4, because even then the anti-vaxxers were really annoying.

      • Nick Sanders

        Some people have mentioned that the only time they used their real name was saying a handful of comments to anti-vaxxers on Facebook.

        • Jocelyn

          I know they must have got my name from facebook, because it’s my full name – First, middle, last – and I only use that on Facebook.

          • Nick Sanders

            I joined Discus with my Facebook account, so my name could have been added from one of our lovely visitors, or any of the nice people I’ve met on Vaccine Information Awareness, assuming it wasn’t just copied off the members list of one of the groups I read but rarely post to, like RtAVM.

        • Isilzha

          It must be Facebook. I’m on the list under my maiden name and FB is the only place I post under that.

        • Who?

          I’ve laid off Facebook since I got some marriage proposals from attractive young men from exotic backgrounds who couldn’t seem to meet girls their own age. My privacy settings were not what they should have been, and now they are what they should be but I find the entire thing tedious. Love FB messaging though!

    • Burgundy

      I think the list is based on FB. I am in couple anti-anti-vaxxers groups and my name show up on the list.

  • Nick Sanders

    I was just coming to post about this. I’m on it too!

    • fiftyfifty1

      congrats!

    • yugaya

      I’m one of the few representatives from my corner of the planet.

      In great company judging by the comments here.

  • An Actual Attorney

    I’m so sad I didn’t make the list. Do you think I can submit my own name?

    • Montserrat Blanco

      I am very sad too! After all those talks with AC!!!!

      • Wren

        Me too.

      • Who?

        Just have to keep at it with AC, I take it he eventually flounced from the last one he was in? His staying power has improved though he is a bit of a one trick pony, his repertoire would benefit from a bit of diversity.

        • Montserrat Blanco

          Yes, he is not replying anymore. I think we son the last one but he will come back…

          • Who?

            The sad thing is I think he’s sincere. Totally off base, but sincere.

      • Nick Sanders

        Apparently most of the names are culled off of Facebook.

        • Aha! I knew there were benefits to not having a FB page, but who would have thought this would be one of them?

    • Bugsy

      Me three – my name isn’t on there! 🙁

      • I’m not on there either. Perhaps I’m too nice.

        I thought my puns alone would put me on an enemies list. Just call me Rapunzel.

        • MLE

          That’s repungnant

    • Alcharisi

      I also didn’t make the cut. And I even published a pro-vax academic paper under my real name! *sadface*

      • indigosky

        Well duh, that’s why you’re not on there. They don’t read actual scientific papers, just conspiracy blog and FB pages.

      • Squillo

        Silly scientist. You didn’t put it on Facebook, where all the real vaccine science happens.

        • Alcharisi

          But…but…but…I’m not even a scientist! I’m in religious studies! Surely that gives me some points?

  • Charybdis

    Congratulations!!

  • FEDUP MD

    I made the list(under my real name)! Yay!

    • fiftyfifty1

      congrats!

  • demodocus

    Thirty THOUSAND? Sorry for the caps, I’m just in shock that they bothered to list enough pro-vax bloggers to fill up a small city.

    • madcapfeline

      Not just bloggers. I made the list and not anything close to an authority. I just made a few pro-vax comments on various threads in pro-vax facebook groups. It’s intensely gratifying to know that I’m in such good company though.

      • fiftyfifty1

        Congrats!

    • Gatita

      I find it chilling because the level of crazy involved must be profound. Brr.

    • Nick Sanders

      And remember, we’re the paid shills with dossiers on them.

      • demodocus

        we’re 3 paid shills, who like to post under a dozen names!

        • Cobalt

          30,000 fake names, apparently.

          • yugaya

            We are all one big multiple personality shill. Big Pharma had to downsize and cut corners.

          • Nick Sanders

            You’d think big pharma could afford some antipsychotics.

    • Cobalt

      I’m not convinced it’s a real list. Any decent sized phone book will give you a list of 30,000 names, add in a few vocal science advocates, and there’s your “list”.

      • Tiffanie Wilson

        I’m on it and I believe that if you have been banned by VaxTruth or any of the weirdo anti-vaxxers pages, you belong to Banned by Food Babe(all the admins and a great many members are on this list) or if you comment and subscribe to Credible Hulk, Kavin Senpathy, SciBabe and We Love GMOs and Vaccines on Facebook, you are more than likely there.

        • demodocus

          I comment on both Kavin S.’s page and TAVS. Must have missed me, lol

          • Bugsy

            I comment on TAVS as well, and also was missed. They did a thorough job…almost as thorough as their anti-vax research…

        • Bugsy

          Oooh, thanks for the list of pages I need to check out. They sound great!

      • Poogles

        “I’m not convinced it’s a real list.”

        Well, when I google my name, the only results are actually related to me, I doubt I’m vocal enough to get THAT much attention, and I am definitely on the list, so I have no doubt it is “real” in that sense.

  • yentavegan

    What kind of Adults put together a list of enemies , what are they a bunch of junior high school kids? This is borderline dangerously disturbing. The woo crowd is showing its true colors.

    • Who?

      All jokes aside, I agree. Who decided to sit down and do this? And to what end?

      Interestingly though there are no double up names. My given name is very common, so is my family name. There is a woman in the next suburb with the same name, but no double ups on the whole list? Doesn’t seem very likely.

      I’m not on it btw.

      • Wren

        I also have a common first name and surname. Surprised me that there wasn’t that combo on the list a bit.

      • Sarah

        I have a pretty uncommon name and I’m on it. I think it’s very likely to be real for that reason. And that gives me the heebies.

        (by uncommon, I am clearly not talking about my first name :p )

      • Poogles

        “but no double ups on the whole list?”

        Is that actually the case? A few people on FB said they were listed twice….

  • Anne Catherine

    Congrats!!!

  • RMY

    That’s a worthy goal for any science-based blogger!

  • Amy

    IMO, there is no greater testament to their scientific illiteracy than the list itself. It’s in alphabetical order by first name. Your name is Amy, which is at the beginning of the alphabet, and you’re entries 1596 and 1597 (presumably because they weren’t sure of the real spelling of your last name?). Over a thousand people named Aaron, Adam, Alex, and Amanda come before you.

    Meanwhile, who’s on the anti-vax “friends” list? Peggy O’Mara, Sherry Tenpenny, the entire Sears family (let’s be generous and round up to 30 for all their kids, kids’ spouses, and grandchildren), Joseph Mercola, Jay Gordon, Christiane Northrup and her “medical intuitive” friend Mona Lisa, Janet Fraser, Vani Hari, Jenny McCarthy, Krista Cornish Scott, maybe the entire membership of ICPA4kids? What’s that, a few hundred? Maybe? If we’re being generous?

    • lol

      “Peggy from the homeowner’s association, that lady I talked to on IRC one time, a couple e-book authors, and Scientology.”

    • demodocus

      Even alphabetizing by surname, she wouldn’t be in the right spot.

      • Amy

        I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn’t pointing out that they misalphabetized (as far as I can tell, she’s in the right place by first name). It was that, even still in the mid-As, the list was well into the thousands.

    • Bugsy

      I was wondering this, too. Wouldn’t it be fascinating to see how many on this list are doctors, scientists and others associated with epidemiology? I would love to compare it with a comparable anti-vax list, education levels and how many profit directly from their anti-vax fears.

  • fiftyfifty1

    Congrats!

  • The idea of a list created by fans of anti-science sends chills up my spine. It’s a little too similar to the anti-choice hit lists written up by crazy people.

    • Cobalt

      Creepy? Yeah. But also loudly published and fussed over. If you’re planning an illegal action, it’s typically a bad idea to tell the entire internet about it.

      For all their conspiracy theorizing, they are truly terrible at it themselves.

      • I view it as an attempt at intimidation. What happens next, they more than likely haven’t even considered. People who make such lists against ideological nemeses rarely ever dirty their own hands.

    • An Actual Attorney

      I used those lists to find obgyns.