If we treated erectile dysfunction like we treat breastfeeding difficulties …

iStock_000005186242XSmall copy

Mr. Jones, so nice to meet you.

Allow me to introduce myself, Ima Frawde, IBCEC. What are the letters for? International Board Certified Ejaculation Consultant, of course. I support men who have ejaculation dysfunction at the low introductory price of $200 per hour. I’m here to help you with your erectile dysfunction.

Examine you? No, I’m not going to examine you. I know what’s wrong without examining you; I learned during my training that so called “erectile dysfunction” is always caused by the man who claims he is suffering from it. Different ejaculation consultants may have different opinions about a variety of issues, but on one thing we are all agreed: there is no such thing as “not enough” erectile function.

Just think about it. If erectile dysfunction were real, the population of the world would have died out long ago and we wouldn’t be here. We’re here, so that proves my point!

There is no such thing as “not enough” erectile function.

What is causing your problem? Well, there are a number of possibilities.

1. You are not trying hard enough.

Some men simply don’t care about giving their wives the best sexual experience possible. Let’s face it, sexual intercourse can be a challenge and most husbands are just too lazy to meet the demands of regular activity. When the going gets tough, they give up and give in, opting for vibrators and other sex toys. Sure their wives may seem satisfied with vibrators, but over time those same wives will experience a decrease in IQ. If you really cared about your wife, Mr. Jones, you’d try harder. Lololol, get it? Try harder?

2. You are deformed, but that’s not an excuse.

Sigh, you have a circumcised penis, and we all know who’s to blame for that. Your ignorant parents never realized that circumcision causes erectile dysfunction. Sure you might not have noticed it for the first 65-70 years of life and it might not have started until after you had your first heart attack and began insulin for diabetes, but it is just as much the cause as if you were circumcised yesterday. Too bad for you.

3. Decreased blood flow? Don’t be silly.

You might have heard that erectile dysfunction can be caused by diseases that decrease blood flow to all organs, not just the penis, but it’s not true. That’s just a lie made up by Big Pharma in an effort to sell Viagra. There is no such thing as “not enough blood flow”! Your body is perfectly designed to have an erection and if you only gave it enough time, everything would be fine.

4. So what if your wife is crying because you can’t have intercourse; she’ll just have to wait.

Erectile dysfunction is a matter of supply and demand. If you don’t try to have sex often enough, you’ll never have enough blood flow. You have to keep trying to have sex over and over and over again each day and eventually there will be enough blood flow for erections on demand.

5. You’re doing it wrong.

Positioning is very, very important to prevent erectile dysfunction. If you held your wife the right way, she’d be able to “latch on” to your penis properly and you would then get an erection. So basically this is all your fault.

Oops, time’s up. You can pay with a check, although cash under the table is always appreciated. I’ll be back later in the week for another session. Just remember what I told you: you are not trying hard enough; you are deformed; there is no such thing as decreased blood flow; your wife is just going to have to deal with her disappointment; and, don’t forget, you are doing it wrong.

What? Of course it is your fault! Stop whining that there’s something wrong just so you have an excuse to stop having intercourse. We all know that is what is really going on.

You feel worse now?

No need to thank me; I’m just doing my job as an IBCEC, International Board Certified Ejaculation Consultant.

 

This piece is satire. It first appeared in January 2013.

  • Nick Sanders

    Can we have this page locked already? It’s already broken under the weight of Disqus, and Lawrence is not interested in arguing in good faith, as he has clearly demonstrated.

  • Lawrence Newman

    http://ghost0922.tumblr.com/post/132824537431/diese-arme-eichel-hat-die-jemals-schon-das

    Proof the erogenous sensation comes from the tip (ridged band) of the foreskin. A man with phimosis (as I had) who is able to get amazing sensations purely from stretching the tip.

    Everything you people think you know, is a lie.

    • Nick Sanders

      No one has said the foreskin is non-erogenous. However, demonstrating that someone with a foreskin enjoys stimulation of it does not disprove the claim that other parts of the penis are also erogenous.

      • Lawrence Newman

        The glans has been shown to be almost entirely protopathic. It has no significant erogenous value. If that was the case, stroking the eyeball would be pleasurable. Notice when you stroke your inner arm or nipple, it’s pleasant? Fine touch receptors. Now multiply the fine touch density by a few hundred times and you have the ridged band.

        • Nick Sanders

          Except whenever pressed on those fine touch receptors versus the ones in the foreskin, you say they are only sexually stimulating because of where they connect to in the brain, without giving a reason the same can’t be true of the receptors in the glans. Just go away, it’s clear your claims are whatever is most convenient for you at the time, rather than anything of substance.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because protopathic nerves sense pressure and pain. Pressure and pain are no erogenous. Jesus.

          • Nick Sanders

            I still don’t understand how you think pressure isn’t erogenous, let alone tickle.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Pressure isn’t erogenous. Fact.

          • Nick Sanders

            Adding the word “fact” to a statement doesn’t make it one.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, but in this case it IS a fact. Pressure-sensing nerves are not erogenous. Pressure is pressure. Fine touch is erogenous.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yawn.

          • Wren

            Pressure can be extremely erogenous. Fine touch can be repulsive. Context is so important.
            If it all came down to setting off certain types of nerves, rape would be just as pleasurable as wanted sex and it wouldn’t matter who we slept with. Turns out there is more to it than exciting certain nerves for most of us though.

  • Nick Sanders

    Holy shitshow, Batman! This is still going on? I can’t even get to the page via SkepOB anymore, it’s completely broken under thanks to the number of comments. Lawrence, grow up and go away already.

  • Lawrence Newman

    http://www.dw.com/en/for-some-egyptian-women-fgm-is-not-all-bad/a-18714941

    “Despite describing her experience as horrible, Mounira said that the cutting did not affect her life afterwards, and that she enjoys a healthy life with her husband.”

    By the logic of idiots on this page, this means FGM is perfectly acceptable and victims who say it ruined their sex life are hysterical.

    Your logic, laddies. Feelings and social conditioning trump neurology, apparently.

    • Wren

      “describing her experience as horrible” That’s an issue right there.
      Plenty of kids who were beaten badly grew up to be just fine. Your logic would say that beating kids is just fine then.

      • Lawrence Newman

        How is that my logic?

    • yugaya

      Views of people on this page and in general on FGM have nothing to do with what you are claiming. Just because you are equating circumcision with FGM to further your agenda, it does not make it true.

      In fact, it makes you a rather repulsive western male privileged idiot all of this using of FGM for your crusade against newborn male circumcision in USA.

      • Lawrence Newman

        FGM is mutilation of humans. MGM is mutilation of humans.

        Why are you having a problem with reality?

        Privileged? I had my sexual pleasure stripped from me for life! ffs You are a moron.

        • yugaya

          “FGM is mutilation of humans. MGM is mutilation of humans.”

          And circumcision is not MGM. Just because you say so does not count. You need to get over yourself. You are not qualified to define what a medical procedure is or isn’t. AAP are qualified to not only define circumcision, but to make policy statements regarding its benefits and risks.

          Yes, you are a privileged male idiot every time you reach for FGM as your blanket excuse.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “And circumcision is not MGM. ”

            Yes, it is. It is cutting off primary erogenous tissue for no medical reason. That is mutilation and the causing of sexual dysfunction.

            By your logic, female circumcision might not be FGM because some people don’t view it as such.

            ” AAP are qualified to not only define circumcision, but to make policy statements regarding its benefits and risks.”

            No, they aren’t. Not one medical student who goes to work for the AAP has been taught about the functions of the foreskin and its erogenous nature and neurology. Not one. The US medical system erases the foreskin from the literature.

            “Yes, you are a privileged male idiot every time you reach for FGM as your blanket excuse.”

            Explain how I am privileged? I was genitally mutilated as a kid for no valid reason, sexually suppressed for life and I have way less rights than women in the UK.

            Please …. explain.

          • yugaya

            ” Not one medical student who goes to work for the AAP has been taught
            about the functions of the foreskin and its erogenous nature and
            neurology. Not one. The US medical system erases the foreskin from the
            literature.”

            Ahhh it’s a conspiracy!!! AAP is hiding foreskin from the medical students deliberately!!! Anatomy atlases in USA are all censored by AAP comissars!!!!!

            *lol*

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s a fact. Why don’t you know this? That’s right, because you do no research.

          • yugaya

            Hahahaha.

            Here’s online anatomy atlas curated by Ronald A. Bergman, PhD.,
            “Dr. Bergman has taught anatomy for nearly half a century. He holds B.S., M.S., and Ph.D. degrees from the University of Illinois and was a
            fellow at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. He has held
            faculty appointments at the Johns Hopkins University Medical School and the American University of Beirut. He joined the University of Iowa
            Carver College of Medicine faculty in 1980, and retired from there in
            1997. Always the teacher, Dr. Bergman continues to reach new generations of students through Anatomy Atlases”

            http://www.anatomyatlases.org/atlasofanatomy/plate36/06externalyorgans.shtml

          • Lawrence Newman

            And where does he talk of the foreskin, it’s functions and its erogenous nature?

          • yugaya

            You stated that “The US medical system erases the foreskin from the literature.”

            It’s right there. In *the US medical system* literature I linked. Medical textbooks also contain it. Feel free to provide examples that collaborate your preposterous claim how foreskin is censored out in most widely accepted medical literature in USA.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well this is only one old publication and not representative of all american textbooks, for a start. It also doesn’t explain what it’s for and what it’s neurology is. lol They describe it as “excess skin”. No American medical student learns the physiology and neurology of the foreskin. It’s a simple statement of fact.

            None of you can provide a link to an American medical textbook that explains the importance of the foreskin functions and it’s neurology.

            That’s a challenge, by the way …. I am waiting

          • yugaya

            “Well this is only one old publication and not representative of all

            american textbooks”

            Bwahahahaha c’mon Lawrence, admit that your conspiracy theory was busted and – move on. From the source I linked, check out the homepage: http://www.anatomyatlases.org/

            re “old publication”: Last revised on March 24, 2015

            re:”not representative of all american textbooks”Anatomy Textbooks and Anatomy Atlases”:

            Atlas of Human Anatomy

            Atlas of Human Anatomy in Cross Section

            Illustrated Encyclopedia of Human Anatomic Variation

            Atlas of Microscopic Anatomy – A Functional Approach

            Anatomy of First Aid – A Case Study Approach

            Lessons From a Bone Box

            Related Digital Libraries
            Medicine

            MedicalStudent.com – a digital library of authoritative medical information for all students of medicine

            SearchingMed.com – searching medical peer-reviewed information

            Virtual Naval Hospital – a digital library of naval medicine and military medicine and humanitarian medicine
            Radiology

            PediatricRadiology.com – a pediatric radiology and pediatric imaging digital library

            RadiologyEbooks.com – a digital library of free educational radiology Ebooks and radiology Apps

            RadiologyEducation.com – a digital library of radiology education resources

            SearchingRadiology.com – searching radiology peer-reviewed information
            Pediatric

            GeneralPediatrics.com – the general pediatrician’s view of the Internet

            PediatricEducation.org – a pediatric digital library and learning collaboratory intended to serve as a source of continuing pediatric education

            SearchingPediatrics.com – searching pediatric peer-reviewed information

            Virtual Pediatric Hospital – a digital library of pediatric information

          • Lawrence Newman

            You’ve listed all these but I don’t know why. Where is the link to the functions and neurology of the foreskin? When are you sending it to me?

          • AllieFoyle

            Sex Med. 2015 Jun;3(2):76-85. doi: 10.1002/sm2.67.

            Histological Correlates of Penile Sexual Sensation: Does Circumcision Make a Difference?

            Cox G1, Krieger JN2, Morris BJ3.

            Author information

            Abstract

            INTRODUCTION:

            The question of whether removal of sensory receptors in the prepuce by circumcision affects sensitivity and/or sexual pleasure is often debated.

            AIMS:

            To examine histological correlates relevant to penile sensitivity and sexual pleasure.

            METHODS:

            Systematic review of the scientific literature on penile structures that might affect sensitivity and sexual sensation. Articles were included if they contained original data on human male penile histology or anatomy. Individual articles, including reference lists, were evaluated. They were then considered in relation to physiological data from articles retrieved by a previous systematic review.

            RESULTS:

            We retrieved 41 publications on penile structure. Considered in the light of 12 reporting physiological measurements, our evaluation finds that sexual response is unlikely to involve Meissner’s corpuscles, whose density in the prepuce diminishes at the time of life when male sexual activity is increasing. Free nerve endings also show no correlation with sexual response. Because tactile sensitivity of the glans decreases with sexual arousal, it is unrelated to sexual sensation. Thermal sensitivity seems part of the reward mechanism of intercourse. Vibrational sensitivity is not related to circumcision status. Observations that penile sexual sensation is higher post circumcision are consistent with greater access of genital corpuscles to sexual stimuli after removal of the prepuce. This is based on the distribution of these corpuscles (which are located in the glans) and, in uncircumcised men, the position of the retracted prepuce during intercourse, rather than any change in the number of genital corpuscles. The scientific literature suggests that any sexual effect of circumcised men may depend solely on exposure of the glans and not on the absence of the prepuce.

            CONCLUSION:

            Based on histological findings and correlates of sexual function, loss of the prepuce by circumcision would appear to have no adverse effect on sexual pleasure. Our evaluation supports overall findings from physiological measurements and survey data.

            Will that do?

          • Nick Sanders

            Ooh, it even says “histological”!

          • Lawrence Newman

            You’ve just given me a piece of circumfetishist propaganda from Brian Morris and his cronies, well known circumfetishists and associates of the gilgal society.

            “Thermal sensitivity seems part of the reward mechanism of intercourse.”

            This is simply embarrassing. You do realise Brian Morris isn’t taken seriously by the medical community, right? He’s a retired molecular biologist who has for years promoted circumcision and compared it to vaccinations. He gets off on watching boys get mutilated. The man’s seriously mentally ill, and most likely a homosexual paedophile.

          • AllieFoyle

            Those are some hideous accusations. I suggest you retract them and apologize.

            People who have strong arguments generally don’t have to resort to slander in order to make a point.

          • Lawrence Newman

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06646.x/full

            This is why studies like this are pointless. For every bogus one you have, I can counter with an objective one.

            Neurology trumps all these pointless anecdotal studies.

          • Wren

            Evidence that neurology trumps personal anecdotes when it comes to sexual response please. The range of human sexual interest and human sexual response is vast, despite the same basic nerves in the same places. Most people who have had more than one partner are well aware that what works for one may do nothing or even be a turn off for another.

          • AllieFoyle

            Studies with conflicting conclusions are common in science; it doesn’t mean that one is objective and the other is bogus — it usually just means that the subject is complicated.

          • Lawrence Newman

            http://www.intactwiki.org/wiki/Brian_J._Morris

            This is who you’re defending. The man is a creep.

          • Wren

            I’m sure you have a less biased source for your claims about him, right?

          • AllieFoyle

            I’m not *defending* anyone. You challenged other posters to come up with medical/histological/neurological evidence. Voila. Recent, peer-reviewed journal….you don’t have a monopoly on the science of circumcision and sexual response.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s physiology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Where does he discuss the physiology and neurology?

          • yugaya

            Lawrence have you ever held a real anatomy atlas in your hands at all? Or a medical coursebook?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes. Not one of them explained the function and neurology of the foreskin. Why do you think that is?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because that would be like going into the engineering specifics of a bridge on a map?

          • Lawrence Newman

            So you admit I’m right, but try to get out of it via “humour”

          • Nick Sanders

            No, it’s called an analogy.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, it’s called mental gymnastics.

          • Nick Sanders

            Anatomy and physiology are separate, if closely related, subjects. A text purely about one has no reason to go into the other.

          • Nick Sanders

            Probably not in an anatomy text, for starters.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Then why link me to it then? Keep up!

    • Azuran

      No, our logic is that we are sorry for what happened to her, she indeed had a horrible experience, but she was able to go one with her life and we are glad she found a way to go past this and is now happy.

      Your logic is that her ‘healthy life’ is a lie, that she is not having
      any pleasure, she just thinks that she does but it’s just not true
      because NEUROLOGY! and that she should spend the rest of her life trying
      to convince the world that there is no happiness ever without this
      piece of skin, no matter how they feel about it.

      Our logic is that if you had circumcision as a baby and does not remember it, and are happy with it, good for you.
      If you remember it, don’t feel it was traumatizing, and are happy about it, good for you.
      If it was a horrible experience, but since it’s over now, you have a good like, you don’t really are and you are perfectly happy with it. Good for you.

      If you regret your circumcision. Whether it was your choice or not, whether you remember it or not, whether you have long lasting effects or not. Than we are absolutely sorry for you. We are absolutely open to any kind of intelligent discussion on the subject. Most people of this forum have very balanced view on the subject, most are not even pro-circ.
      We are just basically anti-Lawrence, because let’s face it, you are an ass with ridiculously over the top views and opinions with absolutely 0 nuance and the argumentation level of a 3 years old putting his finger in his ears and yelling ‘lalalalalalalala’

      • Lawrence Newman

        http://ghost0922.tumblr.com/post/132824537431/diese-arme-eichel-hat-die-jemals-schon-das

        My view isn’t over the top, it is factual. What she had done to her isn’t anywhere near what cutting off the foreskin does. Virtually all the erogenous sensation is in the tip of the foreskin, as is shown here. This guy has phimosis but he is stimulating the ridged band at the tip. The glans is worthless in an erogenous sense.

      • Nick Sanders

        I’d take the three year old, because at least they get bored and go do something else eventually.

  • MaineJen

    I’ve got it! I know how we can really make him go away. We can talk about the one thing he definitely doesn’t know anything about: the original subject of this post. Breasts and breastfeeding. Female genitalia in general! Let’s see if we can have an entire thread without once mentioning the word “penis.” If Lawrie pops in and starts frothing at their mouth again, well just politely step away and continue talking among ourselves. You know…like we’d do with an obstinate child.

    • Elizabeth A

      I dunno, I liked the pitch for blankets for homeless shelters downthread.

      That said – after a few decades of hauling around a pair of double Ds (usually – they got monstrous when I was breastfeeding), I lost my breasts to a combination of cancer and prophylaxis. Last summer, I attempted an abdominal flap reconstruction, which failed. The plastic surgeon pushes for an attempt at an LD flap recon when I see him, but I manage to see him less and less.

      I was devastated after the failure, of course, and I wouldn’t wish anything like this on anyone, but as time goes on I find that I am becoming surprisingly comfortable this way. I considered going flat in the first place, but felt it was sort of a radical and confrontational choice. My major regret isn’t the flatness, it’s that I took the most painful imaginable road to get there. I really wish that breast cancer treatment programs were less pushy
      about reconstruction, and society in general was more accepting of
      varying body types.

      • Who?

        I’m sorry you’ve been through that, hope you stay well.

        And yes the blanket thing was a great idea, though around here at the moment the very idea of a fleece blanket is unbearable.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          I’m glad you brought up the summer heat though! I really need to contact the shelter on what they need most in the summer since we do get in to the hundreds temperature wise and that’s got to be downright miserable for them.

      • Mishimoo

        Hope you stay well!

        “I really wish that breast cancer treatment programs were less pushy about reconstruction, and society in general was more accepting of varying body types.”

        Oh goodness, yes. As so many other people have said in other places, I wish it was more about the person rather than their breasts. So tired of the ‘save the ta-tas’ stuff, what about the person wearing them, dammit!

        • Nick Sanders

          Ugh, I get really cranky whenever I see a “Save the ta-tas” sticker, because I always think to myself, “What about all the other cancers? You only care about this one because there are breasts involved.”

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          I hate the “Save the Tatas!” one so much. Especially when you try to explain to someone, and sorry for the generalization but it’s usually a guy, why the slogan is offensive. It’s usually laughed off with “Lol well people are still being saved, right?” Yup. So we can save the boobies for you to grope because that’s what’s important here. Not the woman attached to them.

          I wish they had a catchy slogan for astrocytoma and gliomas. Maybe then those cancers would get more funding. Or colon cancer. But butts and poopy places are gross so we won’t talk about those ones!

      • demodocus

        Stay well!

      • MaineJen

        I really liked that idea too. 🙂 I’m really sorry to hear that the attempts at reconstruction were more trouble than they were worth…but I hope that you have remained cancer free as a result! I agree, society puts way too much emphasis on women having small-but-not-too-small, perky boobs forever.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          Oh man watching Game of Thrones it’s like, “wait… I thought big boobs were the thing guys like but there’s no way that’s bigger than a B or a small C or someone’s discovered antigravity on that set.”

          I was a C once…then I took a post puberty growth spurt to the boobs.

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Society really should be more accepting. I mean, holy crap you survived a deadly disease by getting your boobs and surrounding tissues cut off! That’s pretty hardcore! If you don’t want to go under the knife again after all that or you’re just happy as you are, the flat chest should be one hell of a badge of honor. Not a “oh poor dear, her femininity has been ruined! She must feel so ugly!” Well now she probably does, you asshole. How about we say how healthy she looks now? Or happy? Bleh, society’s obsession with bodies is a major issue to me. It must be magnitudes greater for you.

        Plus, I mean, now you can run and do jump rope without worrying about giving yourself a black eye. That’s a win.

    • demodocus

      Mine were D/DD before I got pregnant, up to G during nursing, only went down to F afterward, and are back up to G at 11 weeks along. 🙁

      • MaineJen

        I actually made friends with my boobs during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Now they’re…well. I’ve toyed with the idea of breast reduction, because I know I’m not having more kids. Anyone here had one, and are you happy/would you recommend it? I want to try losing weight first, and then see how I feel.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          I haven’t had it done but know someone in my church congregation that did. Definitely loose the weight first. She didn’t and she wound up being a lot smaller than she wanted and wasn’t terribly happy with it. She also went pretty radical instead of more conservative. But the surgeons in that area at the time weren’t known for reconstructive/cosmetic surgery so they might have been part of the problem. Find a surgeon, male or female doesn’t matter, who loves and knows boobs is what I’ve been told for getting the best results!

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Aaaand now I’m scared. o.o How Do you deal with that much boob?!

        • demodocus

          Bras. And right now a strict no touching policy ’cause they hurt.

      • Dr Kitty

        Likewise, although I’m an E/F when not pregnant.
        I’m currently wearing a 28H nursing bra… So that’s fun.
        On the upside, I don’t have stretch marks and gravity has been kind so far.
        And the massive boobs draw attention away from the fact I have minimal time for makeup, hair or stylish fashion at the moment!

        The women in my family are all built like Dolly Parton or Bernadette from BBT…. Teeny tiny everywhere but the tatas!

      • Wren

        Mine were like that. 8 years after number 2, I’m back to a DD on a bigger band size. Wouldn’t mind a bit of the nursing boob back now.

  • Lawrence Newman

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2013/11/circumcision-and-law#sort-comments

    “JamesAgain123Nov 14th 2013, 19:02

    I made the mistake of electing to be circumcised as a healthy adult, having been born in non-circumcising Denmark and raised in circumcising Alaska. The stigmatization of uncircumcised men can be considerable – at least, that used to be the case in the US. Getting circumcised was–without serious competition–the single most idiotic decision I’ve ever made. I was circumcised successfully–everything went exactly according to plan–and yet I lost almost all the sensation in my penis. The little erogenous feeling I have I owe to a miserable scrap of mucosa on the underside of the distal end, proximal to the glans. I’d mistakenly attributed the sensations I’d enjoyed during masturbation to the glans being stimulated by the foreskin, but in fact it’s the other way around: the glans is mostly useful for its size and shape – it’s an excellent anvil against which to work and over which to roll one’s foreskin.

    Now, during sex, I barely feel anything at all until the end. Condoms are a total loser for me – and my difficulties maintaining an erection, much less attaining orgasm (to say nothing of actually *enjoying* the experience) force me to engage in risky sexual practices that I know I really ought to avoid.

    People make a lot of assumptions about how the penis works, and they’re wrong. The glans is not the most erogenous part – it feels only deep pressure and pain (to which it *is* very sensitive). The ‘inner lip’ of the tip of the foreskin is just about all men have to get by on. We owe our convictions about male sexual response to intuition, and intuition is not science. In fact, intuition is a great threat to science.

    Don’t make the mistake I did, boys.”

    Sorry James, according to the anti-male people on this page, you’re just imagining it. You’re imaging it because they “feel” it. Folk theories trump neurology and statements from mutilation victims.

    • Nick Sanders

      Folk theories trump neurology and statements from mutilation victims.

      You have been told, by a neurologist, that you are misrepresenting the neurology, and discounted every statement from a circumcised man that disagrees with your preconceived notions, and we’re the ones insisting on folk theories?

      • Lawrence Newman

        “by a neurologist”

        A neurologist who hasn’t been educated about the foreskin.

        • Wren

          As opposed to a non-scientist who picks and chooses what he believes about the foreskin?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m not picking and choosing, I’m very clear about what the foreskin is.

          • Wren

            You choose which research to believe based upon your own pre-existing beliefs.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I researched it after experiencing the foreskin. Dr Taylor’s research backs up everything I experienced. Of course American medicine is going to downplay the foreskin’s importance when it makes a fortune from circumcision .

          • Wren

            “Everything I experienced” and of course every man’s experience would be the same.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, I forgot, some men have magic penises.

          • Wren

            Your insistence that sexual response for all men matches your own is just amazing. How can you be so ignorant of basic facts?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well we’re all neurologically alike. Funnily enough, you see the clitoris as sacred in all women, yet think the foreskin isn’t important in some men ….

            Bizarre

          • Wren

            Actually, I never said any such thing. However, if recent studies on the clitoris are correct, removal of the whole thing is a hell of a lot more serious an operation than removal of the foreskin. Even removing simply the area generally removed is. It’d be easier to remove a testicle than an ovary too.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “However, if recent studies on the clitoris are correct, removal of the whole thing is a hell of a lot more serious an operation than removal of the foreskin.”

            What studies? lol There is zero evidence that more erogenous nerves and more functionality are removed via removal of the clitoris than removal of the foreskin. That is just a lie.

          • Wren

            Please try reading what was written. I wrote nothing about more erogenous nerves or more functionality. The clitoris extends far deeper in the female anatomy than the clitoral glans seen relatively easily. Removal of the entire structure would be a far more involved and dangerous operation, just as removal of the ovaries is far more difficult than removal of the testicles (and hence the reason spaying a bitch costs more than neutering a dog).

          • Lawrence Newman

            FGM doesn’t remove the whole clitoris. It removes the glans clitoris …. sometimes.

          • Wren

            I never said it did.

        • Nick Sanders

          Doesn’t matter, since she corrected you about nerves.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, she didn’t

          • Nick Sanders

            Really, you’re going to lie this pathetically?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m speaking facts. She is a sophist.

          • Nick Sanders

            She absolutely schooled you on nerve endings, and you’re just gonna try to handwave it all away?

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, she really didn’t. She isn’t aware that fine touch receptors are the erogenous nerves because she isn’t educated about the foreskin, and probably not about genitals in general. The American medical schools neglect to discuss things like this because to admit the truth would be to expose the corruption and fraud .

          • Nick Sanders

            Or, you’ve been lied to and have an agenda, and don’t want to admit either. Again, why are the fingertips not erogenous, they are loaded with fine touch receptors.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because they have different neural pathways, ffs. lol But if you lightly stroke the palm of your hand, it’s pleasant. Now imagine many more times that fine touch nerve density but on the penis and with a different neural pathway causing feelings of excitement too. Compare that with stroking your eyeball, which is what stroking the glans feels like, i.e. protopathic–pain and pressure.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve touched both my eyeball and my glans. It’s not even remotely similar. Go bullshit to someone else, somewhere else.

          • Charybdis

            http://www.livescience.com/15380-nipples-genitals-brain-map.html

            http://www.urology-textbook.com/penis anatomy
            Histology of Glans and Prepuce: consist of keratinized squamous epithelium.

          • Who?

            Lawrie won’t be happy with you.

          • Charybdis

            Larry ain’t happy with nobody, especially himself. Wonder where he’ll move the goalposts now.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And? What’s your point? lol

          • Lawrence Newman

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            The URL you entered does not exist, please use the search function below or use the navigation bar.

          • Lawrence Newman

            touching the nipples lighting up the brain the way genitals do ??? what does that prove? eating an ice cream you love will light up pleasure centres in the brain too. Be right back, having an orgasm by eating ice cream. lmao

          • Wren

            Failure to understand again Lawrence? What a shock.
            Plenty of women (and some men) find the nipples extremely erogenous and can even reach orgasm through nipple stimulation alone. Or they all lie about it, since it doesn’t match your beliefs.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I know promised myself that I was done with this conversation, but I’m getting a distinct Monty Python vibe to his argument style.

            https://youtu.be/hnTmBjk-M0c

          • Nick Sanders

            1 million upvotes.

          • Who?

            I know, I’m feeling it too…

          • Who?

            Actually, this just came to me, I think it is also apt. I’ll be accused of mocking, I know I will, and in that one thing he will be factually correct.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1GKM0zuf7U

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Oh my gosh. That voice. XD I can’t get over the voice!

            But yes it is fitting!

          • Nick Sanders

            At least he had the decency to let you walk into his room, instead of invading yours.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Yeah, definitely came in like a wrecking ball too. Not that he’s “wrecking” us as he’ll claim but just making a wreck of anatomy. I don’t want to see Lawrie’s Anatomy: Foreskin only, Foreskin all the time edition.

      • Lawrence Newman

        “and discounted every statement from a circumcised man that disagrees with your preconceived notions, and we’re the ones insisting on folk theories?”

        Men cut at birth who never knew their intact penis. By your logic, FGM isn’t damaging because most FGM victims aren’t aware of what they’ve lost either.

        You think feelings trump hard science. You are a typical liberal.

        • Wren

          FGM is not actually all that common at birth. Most women remember being cut, often without anesthetic and with dirty instruments.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I remember being cut, yet you guys all trivialise it. Oh wait, it’s “different” when it’s women.

            Most male circumcision is done in the third world without anaesthetic and with dirty instruments.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m pretty sure I’m the only one that trivialized your memory of your circumcision. What everyone else has trivialized is that you’ve apparently had decades, yet have refused to do anything with your life but moan about it since then. Grow the hell up already, there’s more to a man’s life than the tip of his penis. You’re acting like a spoiled child that had his favorite toy take away, and can’t see the rest of the playroom because of it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” there’s more to a man’s life than the tip of his penis.”

            And yet apparently there’s not more to a woman’s life than her genitals when it coms to FGM. Funny that.

          • Nick Sanders

            Name one person who has claimed such here.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That’s what’s implied. Look at the discussions around FGM. OMG it’s BARBARIC”!!!!!!! MISOGYNY!!!!! Yet when it’s male “circumcision”, it’s MAN UP, STOP WHINING, YOU’RE A VIRGIN!!!

            PAthetic.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, you’ve been told even by people who oppose circumcision that you’re being a fucking asshole who needs to get over himself. It’s not about the procedure, it’s about your ridiculous and self-centered behavior.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, I’m self-centred for wanting to educate people in order to stop babies being abused.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Which is like saying, anti-FGM campaigners are all self-centred for wanting to stop mutilation of females.

          • Nick Sanders

            Nope. It’s a individual assessment, not in any way generalizable to a population.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You trivialise male circumcision in general and call intactivists propagandists. This is no different from calling anti-FGM activists propagandists. Mutilation is mutilation.

          • Nick Sanders

            And your lies are lies.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I haven’t told one lie on this page. Not one. You just can’t handle the facts, laddie. The male ego is a fragile thing when it comes to one’s penis. You want to believe you aren’t harmed, but deep down you know you have been.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t give two shits about my own penis being harmed or not. I have so many problems, that it wouldn’t even crack the top 10. Even if it were destroyed by my circumcision, which is wasn’t, I simply have more important things to worry about. That you don’t says a lot about how empty your life is.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, you aren;’t worried. That’s why you’ve just ignored me ……

          • Who?

            ‘…my ego is a fragile thing…’

            fixed it for you.

            And I think you really believe the nonsense you spout-so you aren’t lying, so much as wrong, wrong, wrong.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If my ego was fragile, I would deny circumcision damaged me.

          • Wren

            No. Nick, like many of us here, has a specific issue with you and your behaviour here. If an anti-FGM campaigner came into a thread on another topic, whined about her own experience, refused to listen to any other viewpoints and was both rude and offensive to regulars on the blog while insisting she cannot hold a job or live as a responsible adult I think she would get little sympathy here too.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Misogynist.

          • Wren

            Yes, you are. I’m glad you recognise it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Uhuh, and all anti-FGM activists are misandrists. Wren logic.

          • Wren

            Lawrence logic maybe. You have shown your misogyny quite clearly here.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, that’s YOUR logic. Your logic is anti-MGM = misogyny. Well then anti-FGM = misandry.

          • Wren

            Your misogyny may be related to your personal circumstances, but I don’t claim you are a misogynist because you are anti-circumcision but because of the clearly misogynist views you have presented here. If I claimed you were a misogynist because you are anti-circumcision, then perhaps your bizarre claim would hold, but I do not.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Except you can’t point out any misogyny. You just keep repeating the word

          • Wren

            I am not going to cite every instance throughout this thread. You have definitely presented yourself as a misogynist.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Feelz trumps rationality in Wren world

          • Wren

            Lawrence, 10 hours ago: “I don’t engage with women. Why bother when i can’t feel sex. Pointless.”

          • Nick Sanders

            As I said before, clearly companionship and emotional connections are worthless.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What’s that got to do with emotion?

          • Wren

            Who said it had anything to do with emotion?

          • Nick Sanders

            It was an example of your misogyny, you twit.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What misogyny?

          • demodocus

            Didn’t we have one some time back?

          • Who?

            Thing is that’s not what you want. You want to talk about all that to assist in your masturbatory activities.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, that would be the circumfetishists who get off on mutilation.

          • Who?

            You’re mis stating your experience-again. This is a habit of yours.

            You’ve chosen and adopted the life of a victim, and you seek pity. That’s your way of making the most of your situation. A different person would be out making the most of their situation by trying to live a life and not blaming everyone else for their misfortune.

            Regardless of the rights and wrongs of your convoluted history, and the value or otherwise of whatever your message actually is, you have an extremely unattractive personality. Angry and pity-seeking, vain, arrogant and shallow.

            And you wonder why you can’t get on with women: or as you would suggest, women don’t appreciate you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I don’t engage with women. Why bother when i can’t feel sex? Pointless.

          • Wren

            Misogyny.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Explain

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, I’m sure women everywhere are grateful for that. Now if you would kindly stop engaging with us, as well.

          • Lawrence Newman

            By your logic, women should stop whining about rape because there’s more to life than their pussies and consent. Oh wait … that’s “different”.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, as has been said before, plenty of rape victims, despite being devastated by their rape, still have lives outside of it and move on, rather than insisting that it be the only thing that defines them.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Except rape is against the law and forced genital mutilation isn’t. This isn’t about me, it’s about the fact males are abused legally.

          • Nick Sanders

            This isn’t about me

            LIAR!!

          • Lawrence Newman

            “LIAR!”

            So every anti-FGM activist is in it for them?????

          • Nick Sanders

            See, this is an actual strawman. I never said a word about anyone other than you. And yes, this is all about you, because you’ve decided that you can’t enjoy anything in life without your foreskin, therefore, you have to invade other’s spaces to make them as miserable as you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s not a strawman. I’m using your logic. You are saying I’m self-centred for spreading the truth about circumcision damage, which is no different from saying anti-FGM campaigners are self-centred for doing the same thing. I only ask for you to be a logically consistent psychopath, laddie.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m saying you’re self-centered for your incredibly whiny and attention-seeking behavior.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Stating facts is whiny and attention-seeking.

            So what does that make feminists, who propagate baseless myths?

          • MaineJen

            Lawrie, are you incapable of arguing your position without immediately ratcheting the discussion up to 11 by mentioning FGM? That’s not what we’re talking about.

            Even those of us who are inclined to oppose routine infant circumcision (and there are a surprising number of us on this board, believe it or not) will agree that it is not comparable to FGM. They just aren’t even in the same ballpark.

            Do you hear that? *Many of us oppose routine infant circumcision.* *The circ rate is basically 0 in Europe and last time I checked was about 50% and falling in the US.* *The procedure is no longer covered by insurance unless it is being done to treat a medical condition, and it’s falling out of favor.* YOU’VE ALREADY WON. You’re not winning yourself any new converts by mentioning FGM. Surely you know that. So just stop.

          • Mishimoo

            This is exactly why I am convinced he’s just wanking over this whole interaction. He’s not going to stop, it’s probably the most anyone has ever engaged with him on the subject of his penis.

          • Who?

            You’re right of course. It’s only when I came back to it this morning I realised that fully, you’ve been saying it for days and you nailed it.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks!
            I have been openly female in various places online long enough that he really reminds me of the selfish twerps who send messages which basically boil down to: “Oh! You identify as female! I believe I am doing you a favour by demanding you service my fetish by insulting my penis.” Even the ranting about feminism fits the type, as odd as it sounds.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Even those of us who are inclined to oppose routine infant circumcision (and there are a surprising number of us on this board, believe it or not) will agree that it is not comparable to FGM”

            Only because you FEEL it, not because yo uhave any proof. You are a conformist who believes anything the media tells you without using critical thought.

          • Roadstergal

            The thing that pleases me about this conversation is that the more time you spend here (nobody on this board is going to buy your book), the less time you’ll spend with people less scientifically inclined who might actually buy your brand.

            I felt bad for you initially, but I’ve come to realize you’re a shyster making a better living whining about your dick than a lot of folk doing real work.

          • Lawrence Newman

            My book?

          • Roadstergal

            “I’m in a book! You can buy it on Amazon! Mememememeemeeeee!”

          • Lawrence Newman

            My story was published in someone else’s book. That’s not my book. Silly boy.

          • Nick Sanders

            How is it that you can’t remember her gender after being told twice? It’s in her name, for pity’s sake. I’m starting have questions about your memory.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Boy … girl … it’s so hard to tell with you liberal lefties.

          • Who?

            This is true. He won’t do any harm here-except the odd keyboard sprayed with the drink of choice when he writes some new ridiculous remark.

            The rest of us work for a living. At least we do some good in the world.

          • demodocus

            or at least volunteer in useful ways

          • Who?

            It’s all contributing to something bigger than ourselves, and that is so important.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            It is!

            People get helped and you really do come to appreciate what you have. Health, money, shelter, family, nice clothes, the skills you were raised with and had the opportunity to learn in the first place.

            The people you help get so much from it too. Someone who cares, even if it’s just for that moment, may be something that hasn’t been in their life in a long, long time. And it’s nice to be cared about.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            True that.

            BTW just to spread word, a lot of homeless shelters are probably running out of blankets as the season gets colder. The one in my town is completely out.

            So if you have a sewing machine and a JoAnn’s (if you’re in the states) nearby or know how to do those no-sew fleece blankets they’d probably be very happy to have some.

            Download the JoAnn’s app too for the coupons. I got enough fleece for five two yard blankets and some extra strength thread for $52 and it originally cost $110 without the sales and coupons.

          • Who?

            Great advice re the shelters, we are in the other hemisphere so it is hot, hot, hot here.

            Good on you for helping out that way.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Thank you!

            It’s just been very, very apparent to my husband and I lately how lucky we really are to have what we do. I got a pretty good Christmas bonus so I figured $50 wasn’t going to impact our budget all that much but it could mean everything to someone else. And letting the shelter know if a kid gets particularly attached to a blanket to let the kid have it and then just let me know and I’ll make one to replace it. If the kid doesn’t have a home at least let them have the blanket.

            Lucky for us our state has been really good with helping the chronicly homeless so the shelter here stays small and rarely filled to capacity so they can do more to help the people that found themselves temporarily homeless. If they’re willing to be moved around a bit they are bussed up north to Salt Lake City and given a permanent apartment. We permanent if they don’t want to move. They also get counseling for addiction and mental illness and vocational training to help them get to where they want to be in life. If they don’t ever leave, then they don’t lose anything. The apartment is still theirs. But most move on to bigger and better things once they get that leg up. I really like the program they’ve come up with. Charity and service really changes the one serving and the one being served.

          • Who?

            Lovely idea, and sounds like it makes a great difference to people in your community.

          • Wren

            I never said circumcision without anaesthetic and with dirty instruments was OK for men or boys. That I would definitely argue against. Actually, I’d argue it for boys. Adult men can have the choice.

          • Nick Sanders

            But if they do make that choice, they are automatically “circumfetishists” whose opinion is to be immediately discarded.

        • fiftyfifty1

          “Men cut at birth who never knew their intact penis.”

          No, men circ’ed as adults or adolescents. The men had experienced both masturbation and partnered sex prior to the procedure and the adolescents had experienced at least masturbation.

          • Wren

            Those men are just in denial. Or are too invested in their reasons for circ’ing to admit there is a problem. Or are too stupid to realise there is a problem. There is some reason that Lawrence is still right about how all men feel.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “No, men circ’ed as adults or adolescents. The men had experienced both masturbation and partnered sex prior to the procedure and the adolescents had experienced at least masturbation.

            IF this is the case, they have magic penises. Have you informed Guinness book of records?

          • MaineJen

            I tempted to inform Guinness about you: “Most Misinformed, Willfully Obtuse, YET Persistent Troll in History” award has “Lawrence Newman” written all over it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, this is nothing compared to a forum I used to go to.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’d like to give you conformist of the year award, but you’re tied with pretty much everyone I speak to on this page. FGM is worse than MGM because ….. media says so man.

          • Azuran

            Magic penises? Really?
            If you are going to pull out a ‘magic penises’ argument, maybe you should consider the possibility that there is absolutely nothing wrong with your penis? Maybe someone used black magic on you to curse your penis.
            Have you considered hiring a white witch to break the curse?

          • Roadstergal

            Wingardium leviosa!

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well your logic is some men are happy with their arms being amputated, ergo arms aren’t the be all and end all.

        • Nick Sanders

          Well, since the feelings I’m talking about aren’t emotional, but actual sensations, and since your science isn’t particularly hard…

    • Azuran

      Nobody here is saying that men who have problems following circumcision are ‘imagining it’.
      You are the one saying that men who are happy with their circumcision are imagining it.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Because the men saying this were cut at birth. If mutilated women cut at birth sad they are happy, you would still say it is sexually suppressive. Feelings don’t trump neurology.

        • fiftyfifty1

          No, I have told you before that I know a number of men circ’ed as ADULTS or adolescents who are very happy with the procedure and their subsequent sex lives. It’s not that they don’t know the difference. But you keep ignoring this.

          • Who?

            You need to read the memo-the only anecdata Lawrie finds acceptable is his own, which is unimpeachable.

            Just like his misinterpretations of the items he posts are also unimpeachable.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, we should all ignore neurological facts and prioritise circumfetishists’ feelings.

          • Who?

            Not at all. We should ignore your interpretation of ‘neurological facts’ and pretty much everything else you say though.

          • yugaya

            How is this insane troll festival on this post still going on? Seems like these crazy intactavist brigades trawl the net for any mention of the word penis. Do they not get it how they are completely missing the point with all of their comments on this particular blog?

          • Who?

            I think the point is onanism, in which we have indulged him quite generously.

            At the moment we’re mostly entertaining ourselves, we don’t seem to have reached his limit yet. His attempts to be banned have been unsuccessful.

          • yugaya

            Lol so true. :)))

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, people who are against child abuse are crazy.

            Do you think people who oppose rape (an unsolicited penis) are crazy? After all, an unsolicited penis is less damaging so I presume you do.

          • yugaya

            1) Circumcision is not child abuse.
            2) Circumcision is not rape.
            3) I don’t think that people who oppose child abuse or rape are crazy.
            4) You are the only person in this conversation waving unsolicited penis around. Apparently you are into that sort of thing, not me.

          • Lawrence Newman

            FGM is not child abuse.

            FGM is not rape.

            yugaya logic

            The only reason you don’t see it as child abuse is due to social conditioning. If it was invented today, you’d call it barbaric.

            If someone cut a baby’s pinky or small toe off, you’d call it barbaric, yet somehow the foreskin, which is more important for happiness, is fair game.

          • yugaya

            5) Circumcision is not FGM.

            Says so everyone except you and your unsolicited penis comrade crusaders.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Circumcision is not FGM.”

            FGM and MGM are human genital mutilation. MGM removes erogenous tissue. FGM removes erogenous tissue.

            FGM was called female circumcision until recently in the West, and continues to be called circumcision in the third world.

            You know this deep down, but you are stubborn.

          • yugaya

            No, circumcision is not MGM and definitely not = FGM.

            Because FGM “has no health benefits”. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

            As opposed to : “Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks and that the procedure’s benefits justify access to this procedure for families who choose it.”http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585

          • Lawrence Newman

            “No, circumcision is not MGM ”

            It’s mutilation , by definition.

            “Because FGM “has no health benefits”. http://www.who.int/mediacentre…”

            Except they’re wrong. Cutting off tissue prevents cancer in that tissue. Ergo clitoridectomy prevents clitoral cancer. Why are the WHO lying about that? Why have they ignored a study which suggests FGM lowers HIV risk? And why all the red herrings? This isn’t about HIV or anything like that, it’s about unnecessarily cutting off erogenous tissue off baby boys when it’s not allowed to be done on baby girls. It’s a human rights issue. The health benefits thing is a post hoc rationalisation and a red herring.

            “As opposed to : “Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks and that the procedure’s benefits justify access to this procedure for families who choose it.”http://pediatrics.aappublicati…”

            Organisation which makes huge profits from mutilating baby boys promotes mutilating baby boys. Stop press.

            All European medical organisations disagree.

            It’s interesting how the AAP say benefits outweigh the risks …. after admitting they didn’t know what the risks are.

            Enjoy your lack of critical thought and conformism.

          • yugaya

            Nope. Circumcision is not mutilation. Please cite any and all European medical authorities that define circumcision as mutilation.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s mutilation, by definition. Medical authorities call it circumcision because euphemisms don’t offend religious sensibilities, and to admit it’s mutilation would mean would have to be banned. You can’t cut off healthy erogenous tissue for no reason and it not be mutilation. The foreskin has functions. When you alter form, you alter function, causing dysfunction.

            FGM was called female circumcision by Western medical authorities until the 1990s. So is it circumcision or is it mutilation? If it’s mutilation, why did they call it circumcision beforehand. And if they called it circumcision and it’s actually mutilation, that proves they get things wrong on this issue.

            mu·ti·late (myo͞ot′l-āt′)

            tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

            1. To injure severely or disfigure, especially by cutting off tissue or body parts. See Synonyms at mangle1.

            2. To damage or mar (an object): mutilate a statue.

            To deny it’s mutilation is to deny an obvious reality. If you deny MGM is mutilation, you are logically inconsistent is yo usay FGM is mutilation.

          • yugaya

            “It’s mutilation, by definition.”Your definition.

            Your penis, your definition. Any other newborn penis in USA – current AAP definition and recommendations.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, the definition of what mutilation is in every dictionary.

            “Any other newborn penis in USA – current AAP definition and recommendations.”

            This displays a complete lack of critical thought. It’s another way of saying, I can’t think and do whatever they tell me. It’s an appeal to authority. Plenty of medical establishments disagree.

            The history of circumcision is known–it’s for sexual suppression. The histology of the penis is known–it IS sexually suppressive.

            You would rather listen to an establishment which makes a fortune from mutilating kids. Derp.

          • yugaya

            “a complete lack of critical thought” is when an individual considers themself to be more qualified to make medical definitions than medical authorities.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That’ll be the ONE medical authority that makes a profit from a religious procedure and whose employees aren’t educated in medical school about the erogenous nature and functions of the foreskin.

            Meanwhile, every other medical authority in the world disagrees with the AAP.

          • yugaya

            The implied idiocy of the claim that AAP is a for-profit organisation that would go bankrupt if it did not profit from newborn circumcision is so fitting with the fact that you are presenting that claim here as an argument.

            I’m out, you can wank off further all you want.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because they wouldn’t go bankrupt without circumcision doesn’t change the fact they make millions from the procedure and millions from selling foreskin tissue to big pharma.

            Your argument is profit-making AAP are right and every other medical organisation in the world is wrong. It’s an exercise in confirmation bias. You want to believe circumcision is no big deal and even beneficial. Possibly because you’re a guy who was cut at birth or someone who cut a child.

          • Wren

            Actually, the original reason(s) for circumcision are not known and it may well have developed independently for different reasons in different cultures.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It was done in Judaism because it denies earthly pleasure. It’s funny how you think the origins of MGM aren’t known but when it comes to FGM it definitely was to sexually suppress. More doubletalk.

          • Nick Sanders

            Are you also one of those people who believes the really orthodox jews have to have sex through a hole in a sheet?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why say something completely irrelevant? It’s almost like you don’t have a valid argument.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s not completely irrelevant. I’m asking to see how great your misconceptions about Judaism are, specifically in regards to sex.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Judaism is a sex-negative religion. That’s a simple statement of fact. Maimonides was honest enough to admit what circumcision was for.

          • Wren

            Judaism is not the only source of male circumcision.

            Fgm practitioners flat out say it is done to reduce sexual pleasure and therefore reduce the likelihood of women straying.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Fgm practitioners flat out say it is done to reduce sexual pleasure and therefore reduce the likelihood of women straying.”

            It’s one of the rarest justification for doing it. MGM was adopted to do sexually suppress. This is a historical fact. Just because thye came out with post hoc rationalisations, doesn’t change that.

          • Wren

            Citations needed.

          • Lawrence Newman

            According to the children’s ombudsmen of the Nordic countries, male circumcision is a form of genital mutilation and they’re fighting to ban the practice. Representatives from Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Norway and Greenland all recently met in Norway with doctors and surgeons who agreed on one thing: the fight for the right to keep foreskin.

            “In a campaign, which launched in September, they concluded that the procedure is in conflict with the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child, which says, “Children should have the right to express their own views and be protected from traditional rituals which may be harmful to their health.”

            In other words, the boys should wait until they’re old enough to decide for themselves. This all began when a 16-year-old Icelandic boy asked if his parents had the right to circumcise him when he was a baby. The matter was brought to the attention of Iceland’s children’s ombudsman, Margaret Maria Sigurðardottir.

            “The leading health professionals here in Iceland, who also signed the Nordic statement, believe that circumcision without medical indication, of a person who is unable to provide consent violates fundamental medical-ethical principles,” Margaret told me over the phone. “They have therefore refused to perform such procedures.”

            The children’s hospital in Reykjavik completely stopped circumcising boys in 2011.”

            http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-male-circumcision-a-form-of-genital-mutilation

          • yugaya

            “According to the children’s ombudsmen of the Nordic countries”

            Not medical authority and nowhere near equivalent to AAP. Also, please cite the exact position and person you are referring to because each individual country has its own ombudsman(s), and not all of Nordic countries have a separate “children’s ombudsman” position.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Not medical authority and nowhere near equivalent to AAP.”

            You mean the private trade organisation that makes millions from mutilating kids via an ancient religious rite.

            Yes, the AAP are clearly knowledgeable guys lol

          • Wren

            By your definition, every single surgery out there is mutilation.
            I was mutilated with a tonsillectomy, more than one laparoscopy and a C-section. I had better quit working and spend my life angry at the medical establishment. In fact, as I was mutilated in 2 countries, I deserve extra pity.

          • Wren

            And my ears are pierced too. That was done when I was 13. My mom signed a consent form. Who can I sue?

          • yugaya

            I had my ears pierced when I was seven and I pierced two extra holes myself when I was in high school. I’m so glad I wasn’t into tattoos. 🙂

          • Wren

            Your parents agreed to mutilate you at 7?!!?

          • yugaya

            Yes I know, horrible. Until that moment I was perfect. Unfortunately there were no eartactavists around back then to show them the truth.

          • Wren

            Funnily enough, there are now people out there arguing that it is mutilation to get a child’s ears pierced. Of course, there are people arguing formula is child abuse and vaccines cause autism.

          • yugaya

            Lol I just had someone ask me for proof that formula is safer than donor breastmilk bought online.

          • Wren

            Ugh. Do you ever wonder why the stupid people never seem to be too stupid to use the internet?

          • Lawrence Newman

            If you needed a tonsillectomy, that’s fine. But circumcision isn’t necessary. It’s like comparing getting rid of a tumour with cutting off a leg for no reason.

          • Wren

            Tonsillectomies are far rarer now than they were, and many would say mine was not necessary. Your circumcision was believed to be medically necessary. In either case, your definition did not exclude medical necessity.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yeah, it wasn’t necessary. And while it wasn’t medical negligence, it didn’t ruin your sex life, did it.

            It doesn’t matter if it was believed to be by an individual doctor if it’s a fact that no case of tight foreskin necessitates circumcision.

          • Wren

            It was standard medical practice at the time, and in fact it remains an effective treatment option today, even in countries where circumcision is rarer than it is in the UK. You may not like that, but it is true.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It wasn’t standard medical practice at the time. Many many males were given steroid creams or told to be patient. Regardless, it being standard wouldn’t mean it was right. Slavery was standard at one time.

          • Nick Sanders

            Given your expressed views of women, I’m not sure you’d have a satisfying sex life regardless of the condition of your penis.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What views?

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t engage with women. Why bother when i can’t feel sex. Pointless.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes. And? How is that misogynist? Please explain.

          • Nick Sanders

            You imply the only interaction men and women can meaningfully have is sex.

          • Wren

            Really? Deciding the female half the population is not worth engaging with if sex isn’t on the table is not misogynist? Only in the mind of a misogynist.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Is an FGM victim who doesn’t want to engage in personal relationships with men, misandrist?

            lol

          • Nick Sanders

            You aren’t a genital mutilation victim.

          • Wren

            Possibly.

          • AllieFoyle

            We get it. You don’t like circumcision. You’re upset that it was done to you. Some people agree with you; others don’t. I don’t know what your purpose is in continuing on like this. Circumcision doesn’t have to be worse than rape or vulvectomy or FGM to be wrong or harmful or unnecessary. You don’t have to prove that women are the source of all evil or that circumcised men can’t be satisfied with their sexuality in order to get your point across. I think secular society is leaning away from routine circumcision anyway — your hideous views on women and, well, everyone else, are just alienating and undermine your own credibility.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “your hideous views on women and, well, everyone else, are just alienating and undermine your own credibility.”

            Explain

          • AllieFoyle

            The degree to which I am sympathetic and interested in what you have to say is directly related to the content of your posts. So far you’ve shown no interest in or compassion toward anyone who differs from you. Personally, I’m not in favor of routine circumcision, but I find your attitude and statements so repellent that I could not possibly support anything you endorse.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Tonsillectomies do not affect you life. How are you damaged in day to life from it? I’m damaged because I cannot feel sex and have ED. You should still sue though as it wasn’t necessary.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s not my interpretation, it’s factual. I know because I HAD a foreskin. Listen to “circumcised at 18”. Oh wait, that guy’s a “troll”.

          • Dr Kitty

            Lawrie, you do seem to enjoy talking to strangers on the internet about their genitals and masturbatory practices while humiliating yourself repeatedly, so maybe go to a site that specialises in that sort of thing?

            I mean, why come here and troll, when I’m sure there are sites with people who would queue up to say the things you seem to like hearing, and would be happy to say exactly what you need exactly when you need it? Wouldn’t that be less effort?

            No judgement, if that’s what you need, but isn’t this the most assholish way to go about getting it?

            If a circle-jerk with the MGTOW community does not do it for you any more, is this really the best option you could come up with?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, I’m trolling by telling the truth. Everyone who tells the truth is a troll.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Circumfetishists and religious whackos. What about all the men who say it ruiend their sex life?

          • Azuran

            See, exactly what I said. You want us to take claims of people who had side effect seriously (which we do, the only person we don’t take seriously is you) yet you refuse to accept the claims of people who are saying it was a positive thing in their lives.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “yet you refuse to accept the claims of people who are saying it was a positive thing in their lives.”

            Because when you’re knowledgeable about this social phenomenon, you know why this happens. Most FGM victims don’t see FGM as harmful. If you’ve never known any better and have been conditioned to see it as positive, that doesn’t mean your ignorance trumps truth.

          • Wren

            That does not hold for those who were circumcised in European countries, particularly for non-religious reasons, who are happy with the result.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So coping mechanism trump neurology.

          • Wren

            That makes no sense. More likely they still feel sexual pleasure as claimed.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “more likely”

            Where does it come from then?

          • Wren

            Most circumcised men claim they still feel sexual pleasure and act as though they do. It’s more likely they are being honest than that they are all lying about this, regardless of the country they live in.

          • Azuran

            you really have your head all the way up your ass, don’t you.
            People have told you that they know people who had sex and masturbatin both before and after circumscision and they say that after is better.
            They know better.
            Of perhaps YOU are the one who has been conditionned to see yourself as a victim and believe that it is impossible for yourself to have any pleasure without your foreskin.
            Therefore, your claims of having no pleasure are just as worthless as anyone’s claim of having pleasure.
            Either both claims have value, or neither does.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “People have told you that they know people who had sex and masturbatin both before and after circumscision and they say that after is better. ”

            This isn’t possible. You can’t cut off thousands of erogenous nerves and feel more erogenous nerves.

          • Wren

            Maybe they prefer the lower level of stimulation? Extremely sensitive breasts do not usually lead to increased pleasure in having them touched. Just ask men whose partners have had that problem in pregnancy or with hormonal fluctuations. And, just to be clear, those changes in sensitivity occur without any change in the neurology. The existence of nerves is not the sole determining factor.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “The existence of nerves is not the sole determining factor.”

            Without nerves ,you cannot feel anything.

          • Nick Sanders

            What part of “sole” confused you?

          • Wren

            Well, it does have 4 whole letters and is not specifically either about circumcision or a misogynistic word, so he has no reason to know it.

          • Wren

            Again, increasing breast sensitivity in pregnancy or in response to other hormonal changes is not due to changes in the number or type of nerves. Explain that if type of nerve is the sole issue in erogenous stimulation.

          • Azuran

            And here you are again. Simply discarding the actual experiences of people who don’t agree with you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If an FGM victim had her hood, clit and labia removed and said it increased my pleasure by 10 times, would you believe it because “feelz > neurology!”?

          • Wren

            I would believe it did it for her. Why not? Different people get off on different types of stimulation in different areas.
            If she argued it increased it for everyone, I’d be much more sceptical.

          • Azuran

            The absolute number of nerve is not the only thing that define sexual pleasure. If an FGM victim said that she is having more pleasure than before, I would believe her, because she sure as hell knows what she herself is feeling.
            Does not mean that what happened to her is not awfull. But I’m not going to tell her that she is wrong, call her dysfunctionnal and tell her that she should cry herself to sleep every night like you do.

            Have you never noticed how different people have different sensitivity to pain? Hell, some people are even sexually aroused by it. Or how some people are ticklish and others aren’t? why do people have different favorite sexual position? A rape victim can totally become unable to have sexual pleasure even if she has no physical trauma and all her precious nerves are intact.
            All of this despite the fact that our ‘neurology’ is the same.

            So yes, Feels > neurology when it comes to things like sexual pleasure.

    • Who?

      So James had a circumcision, as an adult, for social reasons, and is unhappy with the outcome.

      How is that different from someone who finds that after their nosejob they are still boring, despite having been convinced it was the shape of their nose holding them back all along?

      • Lawrence Newman

        Well it’s different because the false analogy you’ve used is comparing one’s personality with neurology.

        • Who?

          Exactly the same: the problem, in both cases, is thinking you’ll be a better person when you look different.

          I get that you fight your feelings-apart from your rage and self-pity, which you wallow in-but they are real, they do affect how everyone behaves, including you, and they are not opaque.

          Now you’ll tell me I’m shaming you. So predictable.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The problem, in cases where women are upset about being raped, is thinking they’ll be better people if they hadn’t been raped.

            Who? logic.

          • Wren

            If you were circumcised against your will, by force or fear of it, then maybe a rape–circumcision analogy would hold. Were you?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, I was. As are all babies, too. I didn’t provide informed consent. It was like being told i was having a mole removed from my leg, then waking up with my entire leg removed.

          • Wren

            You were 14. Were you physically restrained?

            Babies also do not consent to diaper changes, the type of feed they receive or basically anything else. I did have to forcefully give my children medication, have forced them into bed and even into a coat. Consent for infants comes from the legal parent or guardian, not the child.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Were you physically restrained?”

            No, I was lied to. I was told a minor therapeutic operation was necessary. My parents were duped too. Neither of us gave consent. It’s like defending a girl going into get a mole removed and comiing out with her clitoris removed.

            “Babies also do not consent to diaper changes, the type of feed they receive or basically anything else. I did have to forcefully give my children medication, have forced them into bed and even into a coat.”

            You’re comparing assisting babies with personal hygiene and feeding them to help them live, with irreversible sexually suppressive non-medical genital mutilation?

            You are an imbecile.

          • Wren

            Consent was given to the standard treatment at the time. You may disagree with the treatment and you may have issues stemming from the procedure (though many circumcised men do not have those issues and many uncircumcised men have ED) but neither of those mean consent was not given. It does make sense of your claim that circumcision always leads to sexual problems. As long as you believe that, you can claim a) consent was not properly given and b) your issues have nothing to do with you.

          • Charybdis

            You have mentioned that your circ was due to paraphimosis, which is, I believe, considered a medical emergency. Moreso, I would surmise, if the condition has been hidden/ignored because of embarrassment and hoping it will go away or resolve on it’s own. Because what 14 year old wants to tell his parents that he has a problem with his penis that developed while he was masturbating; the foreskin is stuck behind the glans and I CAN’T GET IT BACK TO WHERE IT BELONGS and it’s starting to change color and hurt?!?

            In the case of a medical emergency, the treatment of the emergent issue often has to be quick in order to save the patient or the function of whatever body part is in trouble. Often, there is not the time to have the luxury of thinking it over for a couple of hours/days. That is not to say the pros and cons of the procedure are being glossed over or not even mentioned.

            Obviously, you were seen by a doctor for a medical emergency (paraphimosis). Did you even ask if another procedure/treatment was applicable or was another option off the table due to the emergent quality of your case? What did you think should have been done?

          • Lawrence Newman

            The paraphimosis was easily fixed. I came out of the hospital with my foreskin intact. All was well. Circumcision was not necessary. Do you understand now?

          • Charybdis

            Nope. Clear as mud. The only way I could see them wanting to do a circ is that either there was an issue with a tight foreskin that was exacerbated by chronic masturbation, causing it to get stuck on a regular basis, or underlying issue with inflammation causing it to get stuck on a regular basis. If the emergency was dealt with at the hospital and a follow-up consult scheduled with a urologist to deal with the underlying issue, then yes, you apparently left the hospital with your precious foreskin attached. It sounds as if there was an underlying issue with anatomy that was revealed when paraphimosis struck.

  • Dr Kitty

    Hi again Lawrie

    Bye Lawrie

  • demodocus

    Think we’ll break disqus again?

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m amazed we haven’t done so already, it’s been shooting errors at me intermittently for the last several days.

  • AllieFoyle

    Lawrence, I believe what you’ve said about the effect of circumcision on your life and function. I’m no expert on urology or any related field, but maybe your situation is as severe as it is because you had the procedure done in your teens, when your sexual response had already developed to include an intact foreskin and been mapped structurally into the brain in that way. Someone who was circumsized as an infant would develop a sexual response that related to the anatomy he had as he developed and went into puberty, and thus would probably not have the same functional or sensory deficits that you’ve experienced.

    I think a lot of what you’ve written has been hideous and needlessly offensive, but I think it comes from a place of pain and anger, and I am truly sorry for that.

    • Sue

      Beware of falling for Lawrie’s story.

      Certainly he displays some sort of psychopathology, but most of what he says is not plausible.

      It is NOT POSSIBLE to have a numb, unresponsive penis as a result of loss of the foreskin – the anatomy doesn’t work that way.

      It’s clear that the billions of circumcised men around the world, throughout history, have not had numb, unresponsive penises.

      This Lawrence person is remarkably persistent – this tends to wear people down. That doesn’t make his story plausible.

      He is clearly obsessed with arguing and “winning” – look at his language. This is entertainment for him – his attitude and persistence cannot be motivated just by pain and anger.

      As I’ve shown below, he’s been doing this in different fora for a long time – with posts equally smug and abusive.

      Personally, I’ve had enough now. I got tempted into the game, and it only feeds him.

      • Kq

        Can you either repost the comment or link to it so those of us not willing or able to slog through might see?

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          Cliff notes version probably works best:

          LN circumcised at 14 to curse paraphimosis. Says this was unneccisarry and caused him to completely lose all pleasurable feeling in his penis.

          LN says that the foreskin is THE eroginious tissue of the penis. Not the most sensitive or part of it, ALL of it. Says the glans of the penis doesn’t have the right kind of nerves to produce orgasm. Circumcised men do not have sex, they have psuedosex to empty the prostate.

          Says this loss of pleasure has caused depression and PTSD and the inability to work for a living.

          Numerous females and Nick (Nick is the only one I can positively confirm as male so correct me if I’m wrong) say that he should try other ways of stimulating orgasm. LN says this is not possible as he has not eroginious tiissue and the mind has no part of the orgasm process.

          LN says things about neurology that are not true regarding Histology that the foreskin has “erogenous nerves” that the rest of the body does not. Numerous articles and testimonies of actual research and medical personnel, including a neurologist, say this is inaccurate. Cue screaming of everyone being wrong and he is right and wins.

          Pulls out the old chestnut of bring up FGM but only in context of comparing it to circumcision/MGM. Says that MGM is worse than FGM. Also, the vaginal has all eroginious tissue in females and the idea that the clitoris is how most women achieve orgasm is “folklore.” Numerous testimonies to the contrary are ignored and called lies or brainwashing to believe.

          Suggestions of how to improve therapy are ignored because therapy is for women because they like to talk and not take action. CBT and other ways to improve therapy are suggested. Says he’s too damaged for any therapy to work.

          Also calls rape an “unsolicited penis” seriously. Says circumcision is worse than rape. To a rape victim.

          And that men are the second class citizens of the world due to feminist cunts that keep the man down.

          The rest of us are bored and therefore post stupid shit back after realizing logic does not work.

          Accusations of professional victim are made because he has no interest in improving his lot in life because the only thing that will make him move forward are A) getting his foreskin, “free erogenous nerves” and all back or B) Sueing the doctors but he can’t because this was done in 1993 and statues of limitations and stuff.

          Also throws out homophobic insults, calling people “retarded”, ” Downs”, or “mentally ill” when not calling them assorted female aimed slurs or calling Nick a “mangina.”

          I think that covers the main bits.

          • Nick Sanders

            I never actually said he should try other ways of stimulating orgasm (apart from switching his antidepressants), I just pointed out that various areas he’s called non-erogenous or downright unfeeling are actually have considerable sensitivity. I’ve stuck to anatomy and logic, since I’m not a great person to be offering bedroom advice; with the exception of pointing out that I’ve had experiences he dismisses as impossible.

            You also missed the part where he said his PTSD is worse than that of veterans, because “They made the decision to go into pointless was to be used as expendable assets.” And that he said circumcision was the worst form of child abuse, and should give a child the right to behead their parents once they grow up.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Ah yeah that little bit at the end about veterans consenting to having limbs blown off therefore their PTSD is not as valid as his.

            And this rather disturbing trend of wanting to behead people.

          • Dr Kitty

            I do believe he’s been more honest in this thread about one thing…

            I don’t believe in the existence of the “ex-girlfriend” from Sue’s link for one minute…unless we’re using that word as a euphemism for “professional who no longer wants me as a client”.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Shaming tactics. The mark of a feminist.

          • AllieFoyle

            What does feminism, AKA “the radical belief that women are people” have to do with any of this?

          • Lawrence Newman

            If that’s what feminism was, the feminist movement in the West would be no more, given that women have way more rights and privileges than men.

          • Nick Sanders

            Bullshit.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, it’s true. NAme one right women don’t have that men have.

          • AllieFoyle

            You first. Name all the rights and privileges that women have that men don’t.

          • Wren

            Obviously, we have the right to keep our foreskins!

          • Nick Sanders

            Only until the doctors figure out how to harvest them and sell them on the black market for cosmetic company gold.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Right to genital integrity.
            100% reproductive rights.
            Lesser sentences for the same crimes.
            Positive discrimination.
            Better treatment in divorce courts/child custody cases.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Lawrence Newman

            nice argument.

            Men created 20 forms of birth control and you’re claiming they don’t have reproductive rights. GTFO

          • Nick Sanders

            Tell me that again when abortion clinics stop getting shut down left and right by state government, and bombed by individuals.

            Oh, and when shit like transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer mandatory anywhere.

          • Roadstergal

            And when corporations aren’t allowed to deny women healthcare plans that cover BC (which many women need not just for the sexy times).

          • Lawrence Newman

            Abortion isn’t illegal, though. You’re whining because men AND WOMEN are against abortion. It’s not a universal truth that abortion is a right, it’s simply cultural conditioning that makes you think it’s acceptable. Do men have the right to kill their kids? No.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Sorry, I wasn’t aware abortion was illegal in the USA …

          • madcapfeline

            Men created 20 forms of birth control that they keep under lock and key. Since anecdotes are apparently the epitome of evidence, I’ll share mine.

            Seven years ago, I tried to have a tubal ligation because my husband and I decided that we were done having children. My (male) gynecologist said no, you’re too young, you’ll change your mind about having more children.

            Subsequently, we’ve not changed our minds, and we’ve spent thousands more dollars than we should have had to, to prevent any further pregnancies.

            So as far as I’m concerned, women having 100% control over our reproductive health care is 100% bovine excrement.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Men created 20 forms of birth control that they keep under lock and key.”

            This was supported by women, too. They have access to 20 forms of birth control now.

            “Seven years ago, I tried to have a tubal ligation because my husband and I decided that we were done having children. My (male) gynecologist said no, you’re too young, you’ll change your mind about having more children.”

            So one gynecologist made a judgement call and you think that means you dont’ have 100% reproductive rights. If you wanted this so much, you would have wentto a different doctor.

          • AllieFoyle

            Right to genital integrity? What do you think — the state goes into hospitals and forces circumcisions? They’re done at parental request. Just like any sort of genital procedure a minor girl’s parents might decide to have done would be performed at the parent’s request. There is no forced circumcision in the UK or US. Parents legally make medical decisions for their minor children, male or female. Neither gender has an explicit right to genital integrity or lung integrity or kidney integrity, etc. And frankly, childbirth can damage a woman’s genitals, yet women don’t have a legal right to maintain genital integrity by choosing cesarean sections.

            Reproductive rights? Are you f***ing kidding me? Name one man who has been forced to carry a pregnancy against his will. Or one who was denied a tubal ligation or contraception or a life-saving termination by a religious institution.

            Lesser sentences? Can’t speak to the UK system, but sentencing is generally influenced by the presence or absence of mitigating factors and the likelihood of recidivism. There is certainly no law that says that women de facto get lighter sentences.

            Positive discrimination? a) not a right; and b) a little underwhelming given millennia of oppression and discrimination

            Better treatment in divorce/custody? Is that why divorce tends to plunge women and children disproportionately into poverty, and that men as a whole tend to fare much better financially afterward?

          • Nick Sanders

            I think you mean de jure, not de facto, but otherwise, well said.

          • AllieFoyle

            Thanks

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” Just like any sort of genital procedure a minor girl’s parents might decide to have done would be performed at the parent’s request.”

            Wrong. FGM is illegal.

            “What do you think — the state goes into hospitals and forces circumcisions? They’re done at parental request.”

            Just as FGM is illegal, parents shouldn’t be able to force MGM on boys.

            ” There is no forced circumcision in the UK or US.”

            Yes there is. Babies are forced.

            “Parents legally make medical decisions for their minor children, male or female.”

            Circumcision is a sexually suppressive religious procedure adopted by the medical community to stop masturbation. There is no medical need to cut off a baby’s foreskin. It is not a medical procedure.

            “. Neither gender has an explicit right to genital integrity”

            Females do unless there is a medical need. There is no medical need to cut off parts of kids’ genitals.

            ” And frankly, childbirth can damage a woman’s genitals, yet women don’t have a legal right to maintain genital integrity by choosing cesarean sections.”

            Actually, yes, they do.

            “Name one man who has been forced to carry a pregnancy against his will.”

            How is this men’s fault or society’s fault? Your beef is with mother nature. Have you been circumcised against your will? Yeah…

            “Or one who was denied a tubal ligation or contraception or a life-saving termination by a religious institution.”

            Well that’s your fault for going to a religious institution for medical help. Go to a proper medical doctor.

            “Lesser sentences? Can’t speak to the UK system, but sentencing is generally influenced by the presence or absence of mitigating factors and the likelihood of recidivism. There is certainly no law that says that women de facto get lighter sentences.”

            I never said there was a law. Lesser sentences for women is a fact. Not the law, but judged hand out significantly lesser sentences to women just because they’re women.

            “Positive discrimination? a) not a right; and b) a little underwhelming given millennia of oppression and discrimination”

            It’s a privilege, but it’s an advantage women have. Men don’t have it. Women have never been oppressed as a group. You can drink the kool-aid, but I prefer critical thought. What you call discrimination is simply having different expectations of women and men in pre industrial subsistence economies due to women’s and men’s intrinsically different capabilities. It’s called division of labour.

            “Better treatment in divorce/custody? Is that why divorce tends to plunge women and children disproportionately into poverty, and that men as a whole tend to fare much better financially afterward?”

            Divorce is a way for women who’ve rarely or never worked to be redistributed wealth from men who worked their asses off for these women. The reason men fare better financially afterward is because they tend to have better careers. Men aren’t hypergamous. they just work.

          • AllieFoyle

            Divorce is a way for women who’ve rarely or never worked to be redistributed wealth from men who worked their asses off for these women. The reason men fare better financially afterward is because they tend to have better careers. Men aren’t hypergamous. they just work.

            That seems a bit rich coming from someone who doesn’t work because of psychological distress from a circumcision performed many years ago.

            Alimony and child support payments are intended to be fair and equitable and promote the welfare of the children. If either parent , male or female, has sacrificed career opportunities in order to do the work of providing the bulk of the care of the children in the marriage, why shouldn’t that imbalance be recognized and addressed by the court? Why should the child have to suffer when the parent who has provided most of his care is suddenly forced into poverty?

            In any case, I see far fewer of these sorts of divorce settlements these days, as both spouses increasingly work (though studies show that women still take a disproportionate career hit even if they remain in the workforce). I also see an increasing number of stay at home fathers, as well as many mediated divorce settlements, and amicable and cooperative co-parenting agreements post-divorce. It’s not 1950 anymore.

          • Roadstergal

            Seriously. The fact that he can make a living doing nothing other than lounge around and whine about his dick tells you everything about how very discriminated against he is.

          • Wren

            I love that he’s using my tax contributions to do it.

          • AllieFoyle

            Parents absolutely can have non-necessary procedures performed on their female children. For example, girls whose genitalia appeared ambiguous or “too masculine” were often given surgical corrections as infants. FGM is illegal in the UK and US, but legal elsewhere, just as male circumcision is practiced in varying degrees in different countries in accordance with their values, traditions, etc.

          • AllieFoyle

            Positive discrimination is an advantage women have? Over men? Women have never been discriminated against as a group? Hahahahahaha! God, that’s really funny!

          • AllieFoyle

            Just as FGM is illegal, parents shouldn’t be able to force MGM on boys.

            Now this is a tenable argument. Strip off all that other garbage and you might actually get somewhere.

          • AllieFoyle

            …yet women don’t have a legal right to maintain genital integrity by choosing cesarean sections.”

            Actually, yes, they do.

            Wrong. You can request one and hope that you get one, but there is no guarantee, and many providers/hospitals/regulating agencies explicitly try to limit them.

            A woman who is refused a c-section has almost no legal recourse unless her baby dies or is severely injured.

            “Name one man who has been forced to carry a pregnancy against his will.”

            How is this men’s fault or society’s fault? Your beef is with mother nature. Have you been circumcised against your will? Yeah…

            When abortion is outlawed or restricted women are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies. In these cases society decides that the well-being of an embryo supersedes the autonomy of the woman.

            Well that’s your fault for going to a religious institution for medical help. Go to a proper medical doctor.

            In the US and elsewhere many hospitals and healthcare institutions are run by religious institutions and are free to refuse services they don’t agree with– namely anything to do with contraception or termination, even when these procedures are in the best interest of the woman’s health. In Ireland a woman died after a hospital refused to allow a life-saving termination procedure to be done for a woman who had a serious infection.

            Additionally, in the US health insurance coverage is generally provided through one’s employer. Employers can choose not to cover contraceptives for their employees if they claim that doing so would violate their religious beliefs.

          • MaineJen

            Women have never been oppressed as a group, and they don’t work? What planet are you living on, exactly?

          • Lawrence Newman

            You clearly can’t put anything in context. Keep drinking the kool aid.

          • Nick Sanders

            Equal pay.
            Access to reproductive healthcare.
            Safe access to the public sphere without threat of harassment.
            Being taken seriously about above harassment.
            Being taken seriously in general.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Women have equal pay. The wage gap is a myth and comes from averaging the wages of men and women in different jobs. Women and men make different life choices.

            Women have access to reproductive care. Men have 0% reproductive rights.

            Women are taken seriously about harassment.

            Women are taken seriously. Women are worshipped. MEn can’t even complain about being mutilated without being told to man up and stop whining.

          • Nick Sanders

            That bullshit may fly with your MRA buddies, but it’s not actually true.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s 100% true. No respectable economist gives any credence to it.

          • Wren

            If you define “respectable economist” as “economist who doesn’t give credence to the wage gap” then yes, no respectable economist gives credence to it.

          • Roadstergal

            “No, you’re wrong, it’s totally backwards from what you said because I said so.”

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Ah yeah that little bit at the end about veterans consenting to having limbs blown off therefore their PTSD is not as valid as his.”

            Strawman.

          • Nick Sanders

            A summary of your implications is not a strawman. Do you even know what a strawman is? Because you sure like to throw the word around a lot in incorrect usages.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I didn’t say what you claim I said. That is a strawman.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, that’s one component of a strawman, but not the whole thing. It’s also irrelevant, as you did say that they consented, and you didn’t, with the heavy implication that that makes it worse for you than for them.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No you interpreted that I meant it was worse. I didnt’ say that. I simply said they provided informed consent and I didn’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            We aren’t discussing anatomy. We’re discussing neurology. Learn the difference.

            I didn’t say my PTSD was worse than veterans’. I simply said they made an informed choice, but circumcision victims don’t. Do you understand?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, you have a martyr complex. I understand that very well, you don’t have to keep repeating it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “And that he said circumcision was the worst form of child abuse, and should give a child the right to behead their parents once they grow up.”

            Why not? If a child is a slave to the parent, why can’t the parent be a slave to the child?

          • Wren

            That makes no sense. Slave= person you would behead?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well if you own a person, you can kill them. Black slaves were killed legally as they were property.

          • Wren

            Actually, the right to kill a slave has varied through human history.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Regardless, a slave is property.

          • Nick Sanders

            Please, keep demonstrating just how freaking crazy you are.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, I’m crazy for stating neurological facts and saying circumcision is sexually suppressive. The people cutting baby boys aren’t the crazy ones.

          • Who?

            There’s also an anti-Semetic flavour to his remarks.

            And as well as having a set on Nick he persistently refers to women as ‘lad’ laddie’ and similar, and says he’s too busy to keep track of who is which gender/ doesn’t care.

            Deeply offended by anything other than good old piv.

            Though I never did learn whether my children are pseudo children.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t remember him calling me “lad” or “laddie”. He did call me “sweetie” a couple times, but I started that by quoting Penny from Big Bang Theory at him a couple times with “Oh, sweetie, no.” when he was being especially stupid.

          • Who?

            He called me laddie quite a few times: I never bothered correcting him, I don’t actually think he knew who he was responding to half the time-just auto completing the boxes with his spittle flecked lunacy, catchwords and alternating rage and pity-seeking.

          • demodocus

            I told my other half about this guy. As a victim of sexual assault and a circumcised man quite happy with his sweetheart, he thinks this guy is a major idiot.

          • demodocus

            oh, and he also said that no abuse my father suffered was anywhere near as traumatic as his circumcision. Even though his mother beat and berated him for years and years. It doesn’t matter in the least so long as Dad’s schlong isn’t a “numb dildo”. Like *I’d* know. No *MAN* tells his children about his sexual function.

          • Mishimoo

            To be honest, I was worried for a bit that this guy was my father operating under a pseudonym. Same argument style, same victim complex, same fixation, and same hatred for anyone not a white, straight, cis male.

            (Which is why he’s not part of my life)

          • demodocus

            that rather sucks.

          • Mishimoo

            Oddly enough, he decided to contact me yesterday with some whining about how we’re not close anymore. I explained why and told him to leave me alone, apparently that was negotiable and I’m both a liar and a victim. Feeling pretty proud of myself because I finally scraped up the courage to tell him to F-off, and blocked him.

          • Who?

            I’m sorry you were put on that spot, but well done.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks!

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            It’s terrifying to be put in that kind of situation out of the blue. Especially when they’ve toyed with your mind before.

            Good job not letting him sink his claws back into your life. It’s never easy when it’s family doing the abusing…

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks! And yes, it is difficult but worth it to keep the kids safe.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, and he’s a virgin who knows exactly what sex is supposed to feel like. He said he enlightened a lot of guys online, through masturbatory conversation, about how they initially thought they had non-foreskin pleasure, but he showed them it was actually only because of the foreskin. He also mentioned a third option for making him feel like he could move forward with his life, which is killing doctors who do circumcisions.

            But the ongoing Histology thing was definitely my favorite.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When did I say I was a virgin? Projecting much.

          • Roadstergal

            You do a mighty fine impression of one…

          • Lawrence Newman

            When you’ve lost the argument, resort to shaming tactics.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, Lawrence, we don’t need to make you look bad. You do all the work for us. The above was just a statement of fact.

      • Sue

        I’ve finished my part in this discussion, but what I posted before was this person’s comments on a site called “Inside Man”
        http://www.inside-man.co.uk/2015/01/15/male-circumcision-can-be-worse-than-fgm-rules-senior-judge/

        His style is remarkably consistent, despite the very different audience. People like this must spend their lives following key words all over the internet, pushing their agenda and repeating their tropes, much like the committed anti-vaxers do.

        • Who?

          Nice.

          I think you effectively outed him and he’s off looking for new pastures to plunder.

          Mishimoo also likely had him nailed when she suggested this is his stimulation for ‘personal times’.

      • Lawrence Newman

        “It is NOT POSSIBLE to have a numb, unresponsive penis as a result of loss of the foreskin – the anatomy doesn’t work that way.

        Anatomy is not neurology. All the erogenous nerves are in the foreskin. This has been proven. You have swallowed folk theories with no basis in science.

        • Nick Sanders

          All the erogenous nerves are in the foreskin. This has been proven.

          Not even remotely.

          You have swallowed folk theories with no basis in science.

          No, that would be you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I have the neurological facts. You think you have a magic penis which defies those neurological facts.

          • Nick Sanders

            You have one paper, that doesn’t even say what you claim it does.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It does say what I claim it does. And I gave you two papers.

            You have no papers that contradict the neurology.

            I win.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Neener neener, I win!”? What are you, 7?

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s a simple statement of fact. Dont’ get mad.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not mad, I’m incredulous. Also, close to laughing my ass off.

          • Roadstergal

            Too bad you will never know the only true pleasure of laughing your foreskin off.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That’s because you have Downs. Everything seems funny when you have Downs.

          • Nick Sanders

            Now who is speculating?

            That said, I went to highschool with a person with actual Downs. He was not especially cheerful, from what I remember.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That’s because he was confronted with you.

          • AllieFoyle

            Now you’re using Down Syndrome as an insult?

          • Roadstergal

            He’s like a parody of an immature MRA.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, it’s not just now, this is the third or fourth time he’s said I have Downs.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I apologise to all Downs Syndromes. They aren’t as thick as you guys.

      • AllieFoyle

        I’m not worried about falling for anything. It doesn’t hurt me at all to be open-minded about what he claims is his own experience–which I find reasonably plausible, if only for him, personally.

        Everyone is entitled to an opinion about circumcision, and maybe especially so if it’s something you’ve experienced yourself. None of it is a justification for being a jerk to women, veterans, jews, people of color, etc.

        • Wren

          I’m fairly confident that the main points are true:
          he does not enjoy sex or masturbation as much as he thinks he should, he was circumcised as a teen and he had developed a form of masturbation which was no longer effective after circumcision.

          The rest, well, that’s definitely between his ears not his legs.

      • Wren

        He claims he doesn’t actually have a numb, unresponsive penis in that he is able to have sex and “weak” ejaculations. He just doesn’t enjoy it. My guess is his this is all his excuse for not enjoying sex (at least not with women) rather than the result of it. He is abnormal in some way and grasping at circumcision as his excuse.

        • Roadstergal

          To jump on a theme expressed earlier in this cheap Greek drama, his problem is between his ears, not his legs. Circumcision and the Jewish Feminist Complex is a convenient excuse that comes with a pre-formed enabling community and means of unproductive employment.

      • Lawrence Newman

        My story is factual. As is the neurology of the foreskin/glans I’ve explained to you.

      • Blue Chocobo

        Sorry, I can’t resist-

        If circumcision caused loss of sexual function, circumcising cultures would have died out long ago. No sex means no babies means extinction.

        Can one individual be the one in a million who has unusual nerve distribution that concentrates nerve endings in the foreskin instead of the glans? Sounds plausible. Overall a population, you’re still more likely to have complications from having a foreskin than having had it removed.

        • demodocus

          Really, why are there still Jews and Muslims if guys loose the interest in sex after circumcision?

          • Who?

            This is a very fair question.

            No doubt asking it makes the writer a feminist, FGM hating but MGM supporting lunatic, according to our visitor.

            Can he come up with a more original response than that?

          • demodocus

            apparently not

    • Lawrence Newman

      Cutting a foreskin off at birth is the same as cutting a foreskin off in one’s teens. the nerves are gone. By your logic, FGM is acceptable as long as it’s done on baby girls because they will miraculously feel their clitoris and clitoral hood when older due to …. magic. It’s lunacy.

      • AllieFoyle

        It’s neuroscience, not magic, genius. Physical alterations have profoundly different effects in people depending upon when they occur.

        If you insist upon making up arguments for me, at least try to be accurate. I do think a clitoral hood removal in infancy would be somewhat analogous to routine male circumcision (which I’m not particularly in favor of, ftr), and would differ in magnitude of effect significantly from FGM procedures performed at puberty.

        • Lawrence Newman

          Cutting a clitoral hood off as a baby is the same as cutting off a clitoral hood at 15 yrs old. The only difference is the 15 yr old will know what she’s lost.

          • AllieFoyle

            Nope.

  • Mishimoo

    We really need a bingo card – he just implied Wren is impolite (despite his own insults and days-long tantrum)

    • Lawrence Newman

      What part of Post-traumatic Stress Disorder don’t you understand? Do you expect me to be the height of diplomacy when faced with people who trivialise the unnecessary act of medical negligence performed on me?

      • Mishimoo

        You chose to come here and begin a discussion about circumcision, you chose to trigger yourself. You get to deal with the consequences, especially when you keep coming back to argue some more. No one is forcing you to comment here.

        • Lawrence Newman

          Nobody is forcing you to reply. And yet you do. Something tells me you have a lot invested in this. Are you mutilated yourself, or did you mutilate your son? That’s usually the reason.

          • Mishimoo

            I am bored and it’s interesting in a grotesque way to see what nonsense you will come up with next. Though, you are getting a bit stale with your constant stream of ableism and questions about the genitals of random strangers and their children.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Ableism? What the fuck. lol What are you on about!

          • Mishimoo

            Oh honey, perhaps you need to learn some new tactics? Gaslighting is so overrated.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Gaslighting? Again, what the fuck are you on about?

          • Mishimoo

            Foul language is not polite, dear. You should abide by the standards you set for others.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Defending child abuse isn’t polite either.

          • Mishimoo

            Show me where I have.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You defend circumcision. Circumcision of infants is child abuse.

          • Mishimoo

            Like I said, show me where I have. Find a direct quote where I have defended it, instead of just stirring you up. Good luck.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If you’re not defending it, then I have no idea why you’re replying.

          • Mishimoo

            You came to a post about breastfeeding to talk about your penis and yell at strangers for disagreeing with you. Surely other people are allowed to play too?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, genital mutilation is a game.

          • Mishimoo

            You toss it out so freely that it is difficult to believe it is anything more than a game to you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, facts are a game. You are right.

          • Mishimoo

            U mad, bro?

          • Nick Sanders

            Nobody is forcing you to reply. And yet you do.

            Of course, the same applies to you.

      • AllieFoyle

        I honestly feel terrible for you, Lawrence. You’re obviously suffering. It makes sense that going through circumcision as a teenager and having your sexuality negatively altered would be very upsetting, and then not having any recourse or acknowledgement of your loss would very naturally make you angry.

        Maybe it’s not your intent, maybe you’re just blowing off steam, but I do think you’d get further if you didn’t try to diminish women, rape victims, victims of FGM, wounded veterans, etc. I do believe what you’re saying about your own experience, and I’m sorry it happened to you and that you continue to suffer ill effects.

        • Lawrence Newman

          When did I diminish any of these situations?

          • AllieFoyle

            A sampling:

            Rape is nowhere near as damaging as no sexual pleasure for life due to non-consensual mutilation. Let’s get real hear. FGM is worse than rape. MGM is worse than rape.

            Mutilation is worse than rape. Rape cause potential psychological damage. Genital mutilation caused potential psychological damage and guaranteed sexual damage.

            Rape is less damaging than irreversible sexual suppression

            Yes, the average circumcision removes more functionality and sensation than the average female one.

            I find it hilarious how you feminists always moan about victim-blaming when it comes to rape victims, but when you have a male victim in front of you, what do you do? Yup, victim blame.

            I simply said women have more rights and privileges in Western society, which they do.

            …made up by whining feminist types

            There’s also all the secondary victimisation as a circumcision victim because it’s legal and people trivialise it and even promote it. Imagine a rape victim living in a society that mocked her for being traumatised and allowed rape to be legal.
            You will only feel sorry for the female victims. Typical feminist.

            It’s unbelievable to think feminists actually think men have it better in Western society. Women have way more rights and privileges.

            IF I was a female, I’d be a millionaire now because of what they did to me. Must be the patriarchy

            But because females tend not to choose STEM because they like different things , feminists moan and say it’s men’s fault . A bit like they moan about the wage gap that’s caused by women making different choices due to having different preferences from men.

            o I need to grow up but feminists are totally fine moaning about white privilege and rape culture that doesn’t exist…….. cuckoo

            I’m not a black lesbian with a degree in gender studies

            You’ve made it clear you support child abuse (but only male children) and you hate males–though probably only white men, knowing your sort.

            So you’re angry because you’re paranoid walking to your car? You do realise men are far more likely to be violently assaulted right? Oh wait, it’s all about rape.

            Proof: ask 100 women whether they’d rather have an unsolicited penis in their vajayjay for 15 minutes or have their vulva sliced off. I am right.

            Only a progressive SJW feminist idiot would turn round to a guy complaining about abuse of male children and make a sarcastic reply about white male privilege.

            the cunt whose blog this is is an anti-male witch who attracts a legion of fellow anti-male, OMG-the-patriarchy-and-white-privilege-are-out-to-get-us types.

            And you’re a disgusting cunt and quack who supports the sexual suppression of males. Are you Jewish? That’s usually the case.

            but feminists aren’t professional victims for making up myths about wage gaps, patriarchy, white privilege and rape culture?

            whining about folklore like rape culture, white privilege, wage gaps and patriarchy

            I think abortion is unethical and a way for people (women, usually) to abdicate responsibility for their actions and excuse this with mental gymnastics. However, it’s not as bad as giving birth to a kid, then mutilating him.

            A system that hates men made me miserable. It’s legal to ruin a man’s sex life for life. I get no apology and no compensation. But if a man wolf-whistles at a woman in the street, women are oppressed. Can’t you see how mad society is?

            You can dish out loads of contempt for circumcised men who complain, yet you get angry at a wee joke about effeminate gay men.

            Why don’t you womansplain some more. I need to be taught how to be more emotional and less logical

            Worra twat.

            you’re an anti-male follower of the anti-male witch who writes this blog and, as such, will not listen to reason.

            If I’m banned, then the cunt doesn’t like the truth.

            Woman, man …. you’re still a cunt.

            So you know you’re a cunt.

            Why fuck a cunt with a numb dildo?

            Why are you still replying, anti-male cunt?

            I’m never going away. I speak truth to cunts.

            Plenty of men-haters who are with manginess.

            Anyone who willingly signs up for front line combat is informed they could have a limb blown off.

            They made the decision to go into pointless was to be used as expendable assets

            I was abused as a kid. Circumcision is way worse.

          • MaineJen

            I think that about sums it up.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And what’s your point? Are you saying rape is worse than FGM?

          • AllieFoyle

            Does that look like what I said?

            Suffering is not a zero sum game. Your pain does not become more legitimate when you minimize the pain of others. I believe you are suffering (because why else would you post so extensively about it on the internet), but you’re hardly winning people over with your hate-filled rhetoric.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, that is what you said, because FGM = MGM, and you reacted with horror at my view that MGM is worse than rape.

            So which is it? Is human genital mutilation worse than rape, or isn’t it?

          • AllieFoyle

            You’re going through an awful lot of contortions there. How do you know whether I reacted with horror or not?

          • AllieFoyle

            And to answer your question, I don’t believe that it’s possible or useful to make a determination about what form of human suffering is worse than any other. I suspect that a man circumcised at birth in the tradition of his family and community probably suffers less than a woman who is raped in many cases, yes. Different people, different situations…it very much depends.

            In your case, you seem to be suffering considerably, and for that I am sorry. However, I have no idea why or how you think that hating women, jews, etc. helps your situation in any way.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “I suspect that a man circumcised at birth in the tradition of his family and community probably suffers less than a woman who is raped in many cases, yes.”

            Do women circumcised at birth suffer less than rape victims? Not just psychologically but physically?

          • AllieFoyle

            I have no idea. In fact, I’m almost positive that individual levels of suffering vary significantly and are next to impossible to measure accurately and that trying to make a hierarchy of suffering with your particular perceived wrong at the top is a pointless and self-centered endeavor.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I actually agree. However, society laid the groundrules. When men complain about MGM, we get told to man up and stop comparing it to the “totally worse” FGM. Don’t shoot me for playing by the rules.

          • AllieFoyle

            Frankly, you and a handful of other random anti-circumcision internet commenters are the only people I’ve ever heard complain about it, and good grief do you ever complain! I’m not even particularly in favor of circumcision, but your horrible attitude toward women, people of other races or ethnicities, people with disabilities, veterans, etc. is repulsive and quite honestly makes me feel less interested in hearing and considering your point of view.

          • Who?

            He’s not suffering, he’d have to go and get a job if it wasn’t for ‘all this’.

          • Who?

            Someone could do an alternative version with all his victimisation bits in it.

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Okay so after a night of sleeping on this and some free time on the weekend, let me propose something.

        Stay with me here, I’m not going to belittle, insult, or meme you in this post. If I do, you can call me every dirty name under the sun and I won’t report it. That probably doesn’t mean much but it’s all I’ve got.

        This does mean a lot to you and yes it should. You did lose a part of your body and sexual identity. That can derail a lot of your life.

        You do want to get word out but as seen here your way of going about it may not convince the fence sitters. You like hard facts in peer reviewed papers. I think people that are able to offer service helps with recovery.

        So here is what I propose.

        I know that because of your situation you don’t have a lot of money to spend. So you’ll have to network with friends or strangers with like minded goals because this will require some travel. How much is your choice since there are several options. I have a feeling they’d be okay creating a kick starter or something similar in this case.

        You have what you’ve described to be something of an anomaly in losing all ability to experience sexual pleasure. I’m not going to argue that here. I promised no heckling or insults. As has been expressed in other comments, that doesn’t seem to be what most others have experienced. You are in a unique situation to help your cause. You can also find others who have the same or similar but less extensive loss.

        Have you thought about volunteering or trying to help organize a study on men like yourself? Not in the UK because that’s where this started and I wouldn’t ask you to go back to what hurt you in the first place and people you don’t trust.

        Here’s where the travel comes in. Germany is a country questioning the validity of the procedure. I don’t know much about their medical research infrastructure so that would take some investigation. There are also likely people that would help you get there and probably volunteer a place to stay in your circle of interest.

        A country I know a little bit more about is Norway and they appear to have a robust medical research infrastructure. I don’t know much about their stance on circumcision expect it is far below 20% from a cursory glance. But I do know they have an interest in helping with male specific problems.

        This is an anecdote so feel feel to discard it, but a family friend of mine was diagnosed with bone metastatic prostate cancer and was given six months to live. So this is a specifically male disease. His family is from Norway and he’d heard that Norway had treatments that were not yet available in the US so he went there to be treated. He was able to come home prostate cancer free. He did unfortunately pass away a few months later but it wasn’t from cancer but influenza that progressed to ARDS because of his weakened constitution. But Norway did give him his wish not to let cancer kill him and that was the most important goal he had.

        There’s also Japan but that’s a much larger chunck of money so it depends on if Japan had what you need.

        There’s likely someone connected enough in your group that knows someone who may already be doing research in a country that is more in line with your views who needs bodies or someone who would want to do this.

        If you could make this happen, you’d be making that difference you want with hard science.

        Just a suggestion and maybe pie in the sky but the worst that can happen is someone says no. The best is you’d be using what happened to you to help someone else. And that’s what you said you wanted when you came here.

        • Lawrence Newman

          “You have what you’ve described to be something of an anomaly in losing all ability to experience sexual pleasure. ”

          No, your ASSUMPTION is it’s an anomaly. Just like you ASSUME FGM removes all sexual pleasure.

          • Wren

            Objections to FGM are not all about sexual pleasure. It’s not surprising you cannot see that though.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, objections are also due to potential fatality and pain.

            But fatalities and pain are caused by male genital mutilation, too.

          • Wren

            And potential fertility loss, which is particularly terrible for those women who are living in cultures in which an infertile woman is considered worthless. And increased problems in birth. And increased risk to babies during birth. And increase risk of fistulas.

            We’ll just ignore those though, shall we? It’s just women and babies, not men’s sexual pleasure.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When did I say we should ignore this?

            What’s worse, fertility loss or death?

          • Wren

            In some societies, that’s truly a debatable question.

            You managed to ignore those additional issues for women up until now, so I don’t think it was wrong to think that would continue. You have already played down the issue of fertility loss in this thread.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m not playing it down. If it’s an issue , it’s an issue. But why is it worse than males dying? Why is it worse than loss of the primary erogenous organ? Why is it worse than gangrene of the penis?

          • Wren

            No one said it was worse than anyone dying, but it may well be worse than the loss of the primary erogenous organ, whatever that might be. Had you asked me mid-fertility treatment, I would have willingly given every future orgasm for a baby and I did not live in a society in which barren women are seen as worthless.

      • Who?

        Victim card.

        Yawn.

        • demodocus

          should be the center box of the bingo card

  • Sue

    Can I put a suggestion up here?

    Can all the blow-in commenters who respond to some key word, but have zero interest in obstetrics, childbirth or the related issues that are discussed on this blog, go straight into some other junk folder?

    We’ve all had some fun, but is it worth digging through all the mud to follow the intended discussion?

    Those who want to enjoy sparring with the offender could go over to the junk folder, and leave the main thread for discussion of the article.

    • Who?

      Is that doable? If so, great idea.

      • Sue

        Probably not…I was just dreaming.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          It would be nice if there was a way. Maybe time to start sending suggestions to Disqus? I mean, worse they can say is no.

          • MaineJen

            “This can go on for years,” he says. UGH. Well, he’s already told us he doesn’t have a job to get back to (unlike most of us here), so I guess that’s true. His only hope now is to get banned. He’s already spouted MRA propaganda and anti-semitism, anti-LGBT, pretty much anti anything not a straight white male. I wonder how long it will be before he devolves into threats?

          • Mishimoo

            I don’t know if he’ll move to threats, it doesn’t fit his personal narrative of professional victim. I’m still convinced he’s just using this as stimulating material for his personal time. After all, the prostate does need to be emptied manually and reportedly not by direct digital stimulation.

          • MaineJen

            Well…I guess I’m glad we poor females are able to perform some kind of service. We’re not good for much else, right? (Lawrence, that was sarcasm…Google it if you’re not sure, I know it’s a tough concept). Anywho, I’ve actually got shit to do today. Hopefully by tonight this will all be a distant disqus memory. I do hope someone is screenshotting?

  • Lawrence Newman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yh3QYpKfJs

    News just in: According to the logic of the people on this page, female circumcision is perfectly fine and victims are not damaged.

    Cue mental gymnastics.

  • Who?

    Is Lawrie trying to get banned, following in the footsteps of his sock puppet Doc Pepper? He’s calling a poster the Very Bad C Word (not capitalist, the other one) down thread.

    Perhaps he’s had a sleep and seen just how nutty he looks, and if Dr T banned him that would be one more badge of victimhood, and would look much better for him than him having to discreetly delete himself.

    • Roadstergal

      I do think he’s trying to get banned, at this point. Then he could go back to his little penis cult and brag about that. For now – I mean, he’s linked to his book, there’s nothing else productive he can do here.

    • demodocus

      My husband is blind from birth, he has a pretty good idea what he’s missing. He’s been circumcised from birth but according this dude my guy doesn’t know what he’s missing there.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Well if he has never felt his foreskin, it’s safe to conclude he doesn’t know what he’s missing.

      • Who?

        Your husband’s issue, according to Lawrie, is trivial compared to his. Trivial!!!

        Lawrie has all the suffering in the world beaten.

        And he can’t even sue! The horror.

        • demodocus

          I know, right?! I mean he can feel his eyeballs! Okay, so they’re decorative, but he knows they exist! Lawrie’s suffering is clearly far, far worse than my blind, foreskin-less but generally happy husband.

    • Dr Kitty

      LN will never get a new foreskin.
      He will never get a civil suit decided in his favour.
      He could choose to move on with his life.
      He could choose to experiment and find something else he likes sexually, and failing that he could make a romantic connection with someone which doesn’t become sexual.
      He hasn’t, and won’t, at least for the moment, because at present he seems to be enjoying the pity party that the MRAs are throwing.
      But it’s a terrible party, with an awful guest list and terrible entertainment, I hope he doesn’t realise that only when he’s eventually alone, with no one who cares for him and no one he cares about.

      I hope LN comes to realise that the only person he is hurting is himself, and he certainly isn’t helping anyone else. I hope he can take those positive steps.

      It’s just too depressing to think of all these sad, lonely people, feeding each other’s dysfunction and never moving out from the dark little corners they’ve backed themselves into.

      • Lawrence Newman

        When mutilated men complain, they are told there’s something wrong with them, not something wrong with what was done to them. When mutilated women who were mutilated by other women complain, they are told their mutilation is barbaric and men are to blame.

        Feminist logic

        • Mishimoo

          When FGM survivors complain, their cause is hijacked by rape-apologist intactivist MRA antitheist antisemites.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Females are human. MAles are human. Human genital mutilation. Not hijacked, just common sense.

          • Mishimoo

            And yet, here you are trivalising one while critisising the other.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’ve not trivialised FGM. I’ve simply pointed out the fact FGM is illegal while MGM is legal. They are both the same in principle. I’ve also pointed out that the claim FGM is worse or different doesn’t actually have any basis in hard science. I don’t need to point out how barbaric FGM is constantly since it’s illegal and everyone agrees. But we euphemistically call the male version “circumcision” and pretend it’s less severe. It’s a folk theory.

          • Mishimoo

            As others have stated before, your grasp of hard science is not based in reality. Thank you for providing more data points to proving the hypothesis that your grasp of English isn’t either.

          • Lawrence Newman

            They haven’t pointed this out though. I’ve wrecked you all. You’re just too stubborn and anti-male to see that.

            What’s wrong with my English?

          • Who?

            Oh sure whatever you say. You are a master of logic and reason.

            Guess what, you still can’t have sex.

            Does it make you feel better?

            Thought not.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I know I can’t. I’ve told you that before. You can’t have sex as nature intended it if you have no erogenous tissue on your genitals. Why repeat what we already know?

          • Who?

            Fun and pleasure, which is why I think you don’t understand.

          • Azuran

            Nature didn’t intend for the internet to exist. Yet here we are.
            Nature intended for my grandmother to bleed to death from placenta previa when she was pregnant with my mother.
            Nature intends for labour to be painful, for babies and mother to die in childbirth. For kids to die of illness. For practically everyone with a chronic condition to die in pain.
            You shouldn’t give to much though of how nature intends for you to have sex.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You are a master of false equivalences.

            By your logic, we can sodomise kids, right? After all, shit happens , right?

          • Azuran

            No, you are supposed to use your brain to raise above nature. You shouldn’t be making decision or deciding what’s good or bad based on what is natural and what isn’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So you think we can cut off people’s limbs then? After all, we shouldn’t be making decisions of what’s good or bad based on what’s natural, right?

            Yes or no, laddie.

          • Azuran

            and what does nature has to do with cutting of people’s limbs?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because we are born with limbs. Your logic is we can’t oppose cutting off foreskin based on what’s natural. So why would you oppose cutting off limbs because limbs are natural? Why are you cherrypicking?

            Foreskinphobia.

          • Azuran

            No, that’s not what I said.
            You said that you couldn’t have sex the way nature intended if you are circumcised and I said that ‘the way nature intended’ is not what you should care about.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well then you are okay with cutting off vulvas because society thinking women should have sex the way nature intended is not what they should care about.

            Cue ‘that’s not what I said’

          • Azuran

            So, now your argument is making something up, than trying to claim the higher ground by predicting I will say that this is not what I said?
            But here, I’ll say it: That’s not what I said.
            My point is still that you should not be aiming to have ‘sex the way nature intended’ and think of yourself, or whatever sex you have as being ‘less’ because it wasn’t the way nature intended.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well I can’t aim for having sex as nature intended as I didn’t have the right. I was rendered sexually dysfunctional, devoid of erogenous tissue on my genitals.

          • Azuran

            and you should stop focussing on the way nature intended you to have sex and figure out new things that you like.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            But then he couldn’t shill his story for money so he can continue to avoid being a responsible adult and get a damn job!

          • Lawrence Newman

            I haven’t got any money for being a victim of circumcision. If I was a woman, it would be a different story.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            So you don’t work, you supposedly don’t get any money from being in that book, but somehow you can still afford an internet connection and some kind of electronic device that uses it. Interesting.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I get a small amount of benefits due to depression/PTSD. Do you grudge me that? IT’s hardly compensation for being sexually suppressed for life.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Begrudge? No. Find it incredibly sad that you don’t even want to try to move past your issues to have more than a small stipend and your anger? Yes.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well PTSD/depression needs treatment. I’m engaging with what they’ve offered me–sertraline and therapy. I don’t hold much hope. Especially having to live in a society that still regularly does this and all the secondary victimisation that goes along with it.

            By the way, to give you an indication of what’s going on. A muslim doctor tried to get my sister to circumcise my nephew because he had a UTI. They try and force their culture on people. Luckily my sister knew what circumcision had done to me and knew foreskin has nothing to do with UTIS. She got antibiotics and problem solved. If she had been duped, it would have been very unlikely she could have successfully sued because technically cicumcision can be offered legally, even though it’s not necessary.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I’m seriously doubting that. I could say that a doctor cause unicorns to fly out of my ass but that doesn’t make it true.

            And you’ve admitted that you don’t take advantage of the therapy you’re offered because it’s useless.

            Also, sertraline is infamous for causing anorgasmia. Maybe try a different one because this one certainly isn’t working.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I go to the therapy, but yes, it has been useless. I’m currently waiting on a health psychologist. Sertraline is not the cause of my problems. I’ve had these problems since the day I was circumcised and I’ve only been on these pills for 3 or 4 months. Actually, sertraline removed a lot of my anxiety/stress. I’m still very depressed and feel hopeless but I’m going up to 100mg a day from today from 50mg previously.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You see, I explain factual things that happened and you just go HUR THAT DIDNT HAPPEN. ffs

          • Nick Sanders

            Are you talking to yourself there?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d suggest escitalopram. It has rather the opposite effect, as I can attest from personal experience while my doctor and I were still finding the right dosage.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Welbutrin and Effexor are both excellent for not causing sexual side effects of massive weight gain like some others do. I’m very happy my body tolerates them. Only complaint is effexor’s really short half life. It does keepe from sleeping in all day though. Nothing like the risk of a massive migraine and brain zaps to get you out of bed! Lol

            Welbutrin can cause anxiousness in some people though but the Effexor is a very good drug for anxiety and panic attacks. So the two together usually keep both the depression and anxiety under control.

            Thank goodness we have a variety these days. Or medication at all.

          • Who?

            You’re very kind to indulge his need for pity.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Kind or insane.

            I am doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Not much expectation, but I’m kind of a hopeless optimist under the sarcasm and dark humor.

          • Wren

            Is this a lifelong thing for you? I am glad you are using my tax money to avoid becoming a mature adult.

          • Lawrence Newman

            How do you feel about the NHS using your tax money to mutilate boys unnecessarily and causing this in the first place?

          • Wren

            They do not circumcise without medical reason.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Wrong. I didn’t have a medical reason. The ycircumcised me

          • Wren

            No. You had a medical reason but in retrospect disagree with the treatment you and your parents consented to. Not the same thing at all.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Tight foreskin isn’t a reason to cut off a foreskin. It’s like cutting off a leg to cure a wart.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I don’t like anything else. Well … I wouldn’t mind executing people who mutilate babies. That would give me some satisfaction . Plus I’d be doing the world a service.

          • Wren

            That is a very, very sad thing. If I were to somehow lose all ability to have sex, I would still have so many other things in my life. I really think you need to try psychiatry again.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s easy for you to say that in your position, but imagine you went into hospital at 14 having discovered the wonders of sexual pleasure, and walked out the next day and realised you’d lost it for life. No apology. No explanation. No ability to get a resolution. Think about that for a second.

          • Wren

            There are people who lose all ability to have sex at all, pleasurable or not, who still manage to have more in their lives. Think about that.

          • Mishimoo

            Cue the “Oh, but you’re a woman and you don’t truly have a sex drive unless there is a penis involved. It doesn’t matter as much to you because you’re not a man” argument.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            False equivalencies.

          • Lawrence Newman

            How is it a false equivalency? Explain yourself.

            You say that to try and sound intelligent, but you know you’ve been bested. I use your logic against you and you hate that.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Actually, no, I don’t hate it because any semblance of this being an intelligent conversation was thrown out the window days ago. I’m laughing my ass off. So I’m not.going to explain myself. I’m just going to say big words and assign my own definitions to them.

            I also have a massive folder of funny pictures that happen to coincide with your crazy. It’s fun to match it all up and share my findings with others.

          • Who?

            I love that cat one.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Every single reply you make is devoid of any argument. You’re pretending to laugh because you don’t have a case.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Naw, I’m just bored and procrastinating the brushing my dog really needs but I don’t want to chase her around the house. A lot of things are hilarious when you’re procrastinating.

          • Nick Sanders

            Nature intends absolutely nothing. It’s a blind force with no motive, no goal, and incredibly arbitrary rules.

          • Lawrence Newman

            WE evolved a foreskin for a reason.

          • Nick Sanders

            Evolution has no reason. Foreskin may serve an evolutionary advantage, but as a species, we’ve moved past relying on pure natural selection. If we can use our brains to alter our bodies in beneficial ways, why shouldn’t we?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Removing the foreskin isn’t beneficial though.

          • Nick Sanders

            Only if you refuse to admit there could ever be a problem with it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well we get problems with our feet but we don’t cut them off prophylactically, do we?

            Most issues with foreskins can be treated ver yeasily without invasive surgery. We don’t remove clits in case women get genital warts, do we?

          • Nick Sanders

            Ask some diabetics about feet, and get back to me.

          • Lawrence Newman

            They have their feet cut off when they get problems with their feet, not when they’e born, dumb dumb.

            What about breasts? Should we cut off teenage girls breasts to prevent breast cancer?

          • Nick Sanders

            Several women have in fact done so.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, because they have a high risk of breast cancer due to genetics. And they don’t get them cut off without informed consent.

            Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you really this thick?

          • Nick Sanders

            Not my fault you’re full of bad examples.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What? lol IT’s not a bad example. I’ve just explained to you the women who do this give informed consent and do it because they make a calculated decision due to genetic risk factors.

            You are actually mentally retarded.

          • Sue

            Then we evolved clothing, and the foreskin became redundant,, replaced by underpants. Neat, huh?

          • Lawrence Newman

            What have underpants got to do with the foreskin? lol What a loony. The foreskin is erogenous tissue. This has been proven. IT’s not a “useless protective covering”.

          • Mishimoo

            Certainly, if ‘wrecked’ translates to “highly amused by the comments section”

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, wrecked means provided neurological facts and got none back in return.

          • Who?

            Add that to “logical’ ‘histology’ and all the other misunderstood words Lawrie is chucking around.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I haven’t misunderstood anything. You just keep saying I have because you have no arguments. Classic pro-circ tactic. Oh, you just don’t understand! Typical.

          • Who?

            And ‘citations’-that doesn’t mean what you think it means either.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Again, you say I don’t understand what something means, but provide no explanation. Why not just call me a poo poo head and be more honest?

          • Who?

            Victim again.

            Yawn.

            I feel you are preparing for an outburst you hope will make Dr T ban you.

            Since you can’t stick the flounce.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No idea what you mean with this flounce business. Is this a word child abusers use? I wouldn’t know.

          • Azuran

            Really? Throwing around accusation of pedophilia?

          • Who?

            He’s done that a lot. Another bid to get banned.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When did I mention paedophilia? I was referring to people who defend mutilation of children. Interesting you should immediately jump to that conclusion though. That explains a lot.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Says the guy who thinks phimosis can require circumcision. lol

          • Mishimoo

            One thing I am curious about: Why do you enjoy misgendering people? What purpose does it serve? If it was just a once off, I would understand, but this is fairly consistant for you and it’s odd.

          • Who?

            He doesn’t enjoy it, since joy is only possible via the penis, and his junk is bad.

            I put it down to laziness. He thinks women are not worth any trouble, he is arguing with us, therefore we must be male.

          • Lawrence Newman

            How am I meant to know you’re a woman? Woman, man …. you’re still a cunt.,

          • Who?

            Another go at getting banned….has he nailed it yet?

          • Lawrence Newman

            If I’m banned, then the cunt doesn’t like the truth.

          • Who?

            If you’re banned, you get to run back to MRA heaven with a new victim patch.

            Which is fine, because who cares what those guys think.

            And you’ll be back.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m not an MRA. There you go with your assumptions again. I’m anti-barbarism. I’m anti-child abuse. There are loads of women protesting circumcision. Are they MRAs? Worra fanny.

          • Who?

            What in the world does not supporting forced circumcision of anyone have to do you with your position?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I should say it’s got everything to do with it. You truly are retarded. Does stating FGM is sexually suppressive not have anything to do with not supporting forced FGM? DErp.

          • Who?

            There you are with the irrelevant FCM again.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well it’s not irrelevant since FGM is the same in principle as MGM. This is a simple statement of fact. When you hear facts you don’t like, you call them irrelevant.

          • Who?

            Add ‘fact’ to the list of Lawrie special meaning words.

            We should start a bingo card for the next time these boys come to play.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Mutilation of genitals for no reason is mutilation of genitals for no reason. This IS an incontrovertible fact.

            But somehow this fact gets defenestrated by people like you and you pretend that they are different. No amount of historical education or hard science will convince you. You FEEL FGM is different and people like you think feelings are more important than facts.

          • Who?

            Again, you tell me what I feel and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

            Not that me telling you will stop you, since disrespect for different perspectives is part of your nature.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So which is it? Is FGM the same as MGM or is FGM not the same as FGM? MAke up your mind, laddie.

          • Nick Sanders

            You first.

          • Lawrence Newman

            FGM is the same as MGM. Your turn.

          • Nick Sanders

            Except earlier you said that MGM was worse than FGM, because for women, it doesn’t remove what you (erroneously, from what the women here have said) consider their erogenous zones and they can still orgasm, while for men that small ring of skin is the only meaningful part of their entire body.

          • Lawrence Newman

            They are the same in principle. Both remove erogenous tissue. Both are human rights abuses. Yes, the average circumcision removes more functionality and sensation than the average female one. But they are both the same as men and women are humans and both involve mutilating humans unnecessarily. You know this.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, you assert that. I disagree quite strongly.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Without any logical reason to and no science to back your position up.

          • Nick Sanders

            But I thought you said women and men weren’t the same?

          • Lawrence Newman

            They’re not. They’re both human, but they are different in terns of behaviour and interests. They are the same species though and should qualify for the right to genital integrity.

          • Nick Sanders

            If they aren’t the same, then how can the procedures be the same? If they have different behaviors, different stimuli should affect them differently.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Is cutting a man’s leg off different from cutting a woman’s leg off?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not the one who said egalitarianism is a false religion because men and women are different. I’m not the one who insists that women despite having more tissue removed, are getting off easier. I’m following your logic to conclusion, but that doesn’t mean I agree with it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When I said egalitarianism is a false religion, that doesn’t mean I support cutting up women., Idiot.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s not my fault you haven’t thought your positions all the way through.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I have. It’s just you’re really thick and stubborn and desperate for an argument. Not agreeing with egalitarianism does not mean you want to chop up baby girls. I think both males and females should be protected from anti-rape and anti-murder laws so why would I not want girls protected from fGM?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because you only seem to do it to pave the way for anti-circumcision laws. Every time you actually talk about the topic, you make it very clear you don’t give two shits about the women involved, they’re just a launching pad for you to continue your tirade, and they should consider themselves lucky they weren’t men who got circumcised.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Er …. women are protected from circumcision in the country where I live and indeed all of the West. Why would I give a shit about women who DON’T get mutilated?????

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, it might improve the sex life you keep whining about, for one.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That doesn’t even make sense. Holy Downs, Batman.

          • MaineJen

            I know people with Downs who are smarter than you, Lawrence. And kinder.

          • Azuran

            at this point, Dr. Tuteur might not ban him just to spite him.

          • Who?

            Yup.

            Keep him talking, he’s doing a great job supporing our position.

          • Lawrence Newman

            not one of you will be banned, because you all agree with the author’s anti-male views.

          • Nick Sanders

            She hates men so much, she married one.

            Although, given your positions, you might actually consider spending the rest of your life with someone and having to care about them brutal torture.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Plenty of men-haters who are with manginas.

          • Mishimoo

            Everyone here is pretty open about their gender, but perhaps your reading comprehension isn’t quite up to the task. Thanks, I’ll wear that distinction with pride.

            Who wants tee-shirts? “Some guy on the internet thinks I’m a cunt”

          • Dr Kitty

            He’s either not used to forums where almost all the posters are female (gosh, I wonder why), assumes that anyone without an obvious female nym is male through sheer laziness, or enjoys misgendering women out of badness.

          • Who?

            My money’s on the latter, but he is just moronic, not bad.

          • Nick Sanders

            We can rule out number 2, since he told Roadstergal her penis was dysfunctional, got corrected on it and called her a womansplainer, and then since then has again told her her penis is dysfunctional.

          • Sue

            Steroid cream is a relatively recent, and not always successful, treatment for childhood phimosis.

            Perhaps Lawrie was either too tight or too old, or both.

          • Who?

            Waiting with bated breath to find out why you are wrong, wrong, wrong and a manhater to boot on that one.

          • Mishimoo

            I’m waiting to find out why he’s changing his comments. That’s just not cricket.

          • Who?

            Is he going back and editing them? Seriously bad form!

            Are they less obnoxious afterwards?

          • Mishimoo

            Some of the ones I had commented on earlier magically grew extra bits, without “Edited to add” or “Edited to clarify”, which of course I can’t prove as I don’t regularly take screenshots. It’s rather poor form, especially when the conversation had moved on before they were edited.

          • Who?

            interesting he doesn’t have the courage of his convictions.

            Pathetic.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Steroid creams were available in 1993, as was the knowledge stretching worked, as was the knowledge foreskins didn’t have to retract by 14, as was the knowledge a tiny v-slit in the tip could work.

          • Mishimoo

            Logical, elite, biology, histology…hey, macarena! 😉

          • Who?

            QFT-I just learnt that from Roadstergal, I’m v pleased with it.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Uh huh.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I haven’t made anything up. I’ve given you citations. You just don’t like them.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
          • Lawrence Newman

            The evidence is all over the page.

      • Who?

        Let’s just hope, while he continues to indulge this, he keeps to himself and the MRA crew, since actual people in the rest of the world won’t enjoy his nonsense as much as we do.

    • MaineJen

      And do you notice how he keeps bringing up FGM, just to get a rise out of us? And he’s again dragged out that old “male circumcision is worse than rape” chestnut. Personally, I find the c word repulsive, but somehow I take it as a badge of honor that I managed to piss Lawrence off that much. 🙂 I was actually starting to pity him there for a while. Now it’s kind of like watching a train wreck. It’s ugly, yet fascinating, to think that anyone could be this deluded and willfully obtuse, this cruel and self centered.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Why would I not bring up FGM? FGM = MGM. Same history. Same in principle. Both sexual suppression. Why are you angry I’m capable of critical thought and don’t engage in doubletalk?

        Mutilation is worse than rape. Rape cause potential psychological damage. Genital mutilation caused potential psychological damage and guaranteed sexual damage. Again, I’m being attacked for critical thought.

        You should pity me, as you should pity all victims of genital mutilation. But you won’t. You will only feel sorry for the female victims. Typical feminist.

        Still waiting on neurological evidence the glans has any significant number pleasure-giving nerves.

        • Azuran

          Oh don’t worry. I pity you a lot. You are, truly pathetic.
          Your story (if it’s even true, you don’t believe my boyfriend exist, so why should I believe your story) is really sad. I totally get that with any possible procedure there is risk and someone has to be the statistic.
          But the most tragic part is how after all of these years you still make yourself the victim and you are so consumed by your self pity that you are actually hurting your own cause and don’t even realize it.

          You could make much more out of this. But here you are, hurling insults at stranger on the internet and asking them to pity you. Don’t you think that time would be better spent trying to get your life together?

          • Lawrence Newman

            You would spit on war veterans with PTSD.

          • Mishimoo

            You already did.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When?

          • Mishimoo

            Oh, my mistake. This is clearly praise and respect for veterans with PTSD: “They made the decision to go into pointless was to be used as expendable assets.”

            (Direct copy and paste, no spelling errors corrected)

          • Lawrence Newman

            That is a simple statement of fact. If you disagree, present an argument. I didn’t belittle PTSD, I simply said they made the choice to go to war, but I nor any of the other infants who’re mutilated give informed consent. Why do you hate reasoning abilities?

          • Who?

            Pity party invitation.

            Again.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Who? : Rape victims just want a pity party

          • Mishimoo

            Oh dear, assumptions. How many people enlisted in the armed forces genuinely consented to signing up?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Or consented to having a limb blown off.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Anyone who willingly signs up for front line combat is informed they could have a limb blown off. So you deny this?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Anyone that consents to a medical procedure is also informed that medicine can be an inexact science and you are consenting to the possibility of unforeseeable harm.

            Do you deny that? Or do you just sign the form in front of you without reading it?

          • Who?

            Cue more victim story. None of it was his fault then, and none of what he has done since is his responsibilty.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            And threaten to sue.

            You’d think he was American or something!

          • Who?

            He’s the master of impotent rage.

            He wouldn’t have the guts to sue, even if he could find a lawyer to take it on, because there is more than one side to this story and I’m pretty sure the real story isn’t the one we’re hearing.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’ve tried to start litigation but there is a statute of limitations on medical negligence claims.

            There is no other side to the story. My parents agree with me. They were never informed of what circumcision is or that it wasn’t necessary or that less invasive treatments should have been tried.

            I find it hilarious how you feminists always moan about victim-blaming when it comes to rape victims, but when you have a male victim in front of you, what do you do? Yup, victim blame.

          • Who?

            Sure.

            Oh and if your parents agree it must be true, right? Maybe none of you listened or took it seriously or followed the post-op care requirements.

            And if your behaviour here is anything to go by, your interactions with medicos would have been childish, confrontational and not frank.

            Or were you a sweet young thing before then?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I was a trusting, quiet 14 yr old who was led to believe I was getting a therapeutic “medical” operation to cure a problem. How was I supposed to know circumcision is a thousands yr old act of sexual suppression? My parents are atheists so they didn’t know. The job of the doctor is to inform the patients. My parents would never have consented to removal of my foreskin if they’d been told. My dad is intact and knows how vital the foreskin is for pleasure. I’ve spoken to a few other guys who went in with tight foreskins around 1993 and they were either told to be patient, stretch it or apply steroid creams. It worked. We were never offered these less invasive treatments, which IS simply medical negligence. If a girl went into the hospital with a wart on her clitoris and they cut off her vulva, you would agree this would be medical negligence. Suddenly when it involves a male and “circumcision”, it’s “man up”, “it’s your fault”, and “there are 2 sides to every story”.

          • Who?

            You have choices now. You choose to sit and whinge rather than try to be happy.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Do you mock everyone with PTSD?

          • Who?

            That wasn’t mocking, though I have been mocking you for the last day or so, as I tend to mock people for whom I have no respect.

            Your ptsd is a terrible shame, but you love it and seem to make a living out of it.

            Your victimhood (not your injury) makes you ridiculous, because you wallow in it.

          • Wren

            Please, please read a little on female anatomy. “Cut off her vulva” makes little sense.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Explain how it doesn’t make sense. When you make such assertions, it’s polite to explain your reasoning.

          • Wren

            Please review anatomy.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Please review neurology.

          • Wren

            I have. Funnily enough, your “erogenous nerves” don’t exist outside of anti-circ sites.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Incorrect

          • Wren

            Well, that’s a clear argument.

          • Dr Kitty

            But, according to your earlier posts, you didn’t just have a “tight foreskin”, you had paraphimosis which had been reduced.

            Doctors are not obliged to offer an alternative treatment if they feel that it is likely to cause more harm than good, or if it is ineffective, in fact it is unethical to do so. Maybe, just maybe, in your case the reason why you weren’t offered less drastic options than a circ was because they weren’t appropriate in your specific case?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I had paraphimosis , yes. This is a tight foreskin. The paraphimosis was fixed and everything was fine. But the doctor duped my parents into circumcision as the foreskin wouldn’t retract, when he should have leftit alone. I wasn’t in any pain after the paraphimosis was fixed.

            “Doctors are not obliged to offer an alternative treatment if they feel that it is likely to cause more harm than good, or if it is ineffective, in fact it is unethical to do so.”

            But no case of tight foreskin requires circumcision. I keep telling you this. If you look at an intact penis, you should be able to see this is obvious. Why cut off all the most erogenous tissue when stretching/steroid creams have been proven to work in majority of cases? Also, foreskins aren’t even meant to retract by 14–everyone’s different. There was no pressing need for mine to retract. In a worst case scenario, you can free up a foreskin with a tiny v-slit in the tip. Why the overkill?

          • Dr Kitty

            From the emedicine article on paraphimosis
            “In patients who are determined to retain the appearance of an uncircumcised phallus, the authors have the patient apply triamcinolone cream 0.1% to the affected area to possibly reduce the fibrosis of the ring. This has been described in the treatment of phimosis and has proven efficacious in temporarily preventing recurrent phimosis, decreasing the need for circumcision. After 6 weeks of triamcinolone application, if the prepuce can easily be retracted and reduced, the patient may proceed as such, but the risk for recurrent phimosis and paraphimosis remains. More often than not, the authors ultimately perform circumcision.”

            Steroid cream is an option, however it is not always efficacious, and the patient remains at risk of recurrent paraphimosis.
            Paraphimosis, of course, being a urological emergency, which if not promptly treated can lead to gangrene and amputation of the glans, foreskin and all.

            You keep saying circumcision is “never” appropriate, except there is a huge body of evidence which suggests that it is, including plenty of cases of men with recurrent paraphimosis who opted not to be circumcised and then had gangrene requiring amputation.
            That emedicine article has plenty of photographs of gangrenous penises, if you want to look for yourself.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The paraphimosis was fixed though. You’re referring to an American website full of American doctors untrained in the neurology and function of the foreskin in a culture that profits from circumcision and demonises the foreskin.

            After the paraphimosis was fixed, I had no official condition since you cannot diagnose pathological phimosis in a 14 yr old. Also, none of these less invasive treatments were offered, even though they usually work and even though medical ethics dictates they should have been offered.

            And as I said before, circumcision is a drastic, highly damaging procedure that isn’t necessary for phimosis because a v-slit is able to be done. It takes far less time and doesn’t remove all the erogenous tissue. Nothing more invasive than preputioplasty needs to be done.

            The problem we have here is that you’re referring to an American medical system that adopted circumcision 100-200 yrs ago to cure male masturbation and sexually suppress. They labelled it a therapeutic medical procedure and it got ingrained in the culture. They are seeing circumcision as a benign procedure as they think the foreskin is a useless flap of skin. But it’s been proven not to be, and removing it unnecessarily is medical negligence.

            http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/circumcision/Pages/Introduction.aspx

            “In rare cases, circumcision may be considered for the following health conditions:

            paraphimosis – a condition where the foreskin gets trapped under the tip of the penis

            balanitis xerotica obliterans – an uncommon condition causing hardening and inflammation of the tip of the penis

            However, these conditions are extremely rare in children and other treatments are often preferred.

            Circumcision may also be considered in some cases with the following health conditions:

            severe cases of phimosis – a tight foreskin that can’t be retracted

            recurrent balanitis – inflammation of the tip of the penis and foreskin”

            The NHS is coming round to this now as Europe is far more up on medical ethics than the USA and doctors are far more knowledgeable than American doctors son the foreskin due to the fact most men in the UK actually have intact dicks.

            There is a difference between “may be considered” and demanding circumcision without any other less invasive treatments being offered. FIRST DO NO HARM.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, because your and your friends have been SO lovely and sweet to me. Go and read back your posts, laddie.

          • Nick Sanders

            After the way you blew in here, ignored the central premise of the post, and demanded everyone pay attention to you and your pet theory, what did you expect, champagne and roses?

          • Who?

            He’s actually been on the receiving end of some thoughtful and kindly meant suggestions, but since none involve regeneration of his missing part, they are probably regarded as mocking.

          • Wren

            Your parents signed a consent form for a surgery they didn’t know anything about? Sue them.

          • Lawrence Newman

            1) Even if they did sign, they didn’t give informed consent. IT wasn’t their fault. Circumcision is never necessary for phimosis and the doctor was the person who had the duty of care.

            2) They said they signed no form.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, you are wrong. Medical ethics dictates that patients must be informed of all possible treatment, less invasive ones first, and the potential consequences of each treatment. If the doctor does not inform patients of what the procedure entails whether it’s necessary and what the consequences are, this is medical negligence. It fails the medical ethical principle of first do no harm, for a start. You cannot consent to something you’ve not been informed of.

            If a man and woman are preparing to have sex and she consents to vaginal sex and he sticks it up her ass, is that informed consent?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I work in a hospital, dumbass. I’ve read the form and dozens of others from other practices more time than I care to count.

            And there is a responsibility of the patient to ask questions and take part in their care. There’s also the option of second opinions.

            You guys didn’t ask what was going to happen, your doctor didn’t explain what was going to happen, and you guys just consented to let the doctor go hog wild with whatever? I’ve seen some fucked up shit in medical settings including doctors verbally abusing patients but nothing close to that. That’d be an open and shut case. So forgive me if I find your story suspect.

          • Lawrence Newman

            IT’s very common for doctors to wrongly dupe parents and kids into circ unnecessarily. In the USA, babies have even been circumcised by cut happy doctors without the parents’ ‘ consent. This will happen when you allow a religious rite like this in medicine and leave it up to individual doctors with cultural/religious biases. Of course, it doesn’t mean the doctor deliberately branded me with his religion, but it’s a possibility. IT could be he was cut at birth and totally ignorant about the foreskin–let’s face it, this is very common.

            Actually, the doctor has the responsibility to inform the patient of the least invasive treatment. He failed to do this. He also has the responsibility to describe exactly what it is. He failed to do this. He also has the responsibility to tell us of consequences. He failed to do this. It is a clear case of medical negligence.

            It wouldn’t actually be an open and shut case, even if i was within the statute of medical limitations. Why? BEcause the medical community is corrupt, doctors stick together and circumcision is described as a legitimate cure for phimosis, even though it’s never ever necessary.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Riiiiiight, the cabal of doctors is just keeping you down and unable to collect on your injury because of the Jewish Taskmasters secretly running the world. Sounds totally more likely than you being a belligerent little shit like you are here that refuses to listen.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Translation: I’m angry because Lawrence explained the situation fully of how he was a victim of medical negligence. BEcause I’m pro-circ and anti-male I will victim blame and strawman him.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Or I live in the real world where doctors that operate without consent don’t get to operate much longer. Legally anyways.

            Seriously, if I don’t get a signature on an account for even a pee in a cup test and the patient comes back to say they didn’t consent to it and the signature isn’t there I get sacked. I also may end up with some pretty severe marks ony job history that would make life quite miserable. And I’m not even medical staff, I’m just clerical.

            Are mistakes made? Of course there are. We’re human. But almost no one puts their livelihood on the line just because they’re doctors in the same practice. Especially if there’s a consent issue. That’s career suicide.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The signature isn’t the point. You could just ask someone to sign something but fail to explain a procedure or less invasive procedures. That’s still medical negligence.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What country are you in? Doctors make mistakes all the time. You’ve just admitted it. The problem is , I can’t sue due to a stature of limitations.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Mistakes, yeah. Conscious withholding of information? That’s a career ender and I’d question how they haven’t already been sued into oblivion by at least another patient.

            I live in the US.

            And let the bashing of America begin because it’s not his homeland and anything that is not personally experienced by him is therefore lesser!

          • Lawrence Newman

            Doctors in the USA never tell parents that circumcision will lower their son’s sexual pleasure. Don’t you know that?

          • Sue

            “A stature of limitations” (sic)?

            Maybe stature was the issue all along, and the slip is Freudian.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Hey now, it’s not the pen it’s the penmanship.

            I don’t know what to do about the illiterate, though.

          • Dr Kitty

            In the UK you usually have three years from the time the injury was first detected, or until a child reaches 18, whichever is later.

            You can still formally complain, even years afterwards, although it is unlikely that so long after the fact an investigation will be of much use, as often memories fade, people have died or retired and notes have been lost.
            In my experience, at the very least a formal complaint will result in an apology for your distress.

            The fact that LN completed a university degree, but only began to suffer more recently from PTSD and depression severe enough to render him unable to work, is probably something that the lawyers he advised informed him was unlikely to help his case. Even if the deadlines were moved to reflect that the damage to his psyche only became evident more recently, it makes it harder to link said damage to LN’s alleged cause. Unless LN’s lawyers could either prove that his circ, specifically, was negligently or improperly performed, or that expected and known complications were not explained to his parents, then there is no case to answer.

            That isn’t a conspiracy, that is how tort law works.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I was refused at 21 as lawyers wouldn’t take me on as it was outwith 3 years. A teenager in that position is too embarrassed about talking about this to his parents. It’s rigged.

            I’ve always had the PTSD looking back. But like many men I’ve spoken to in similar positions, it manifested itself in a different way when younger. I lived in a form of denial. I didn’t talk about it. Every time I had a failed sexual encounter, I would shrug it off and go and lift weights. There are stages of grief.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Exactly. Doctors can do this to kids without explaining anything to their parents and it’s a case of they said he said. IF circumcision was banned, as it should be, or at least prohibited for things like phimosis as it’s unnecessary, this wouldn’t happen, or if it did the doctor would be immediately foudn guilty.

          • Sue

            I’m imagining the consent discussion:

            Little Lawrie: “What’s the incidence of total penile numbness as a result of circumcision?”

            Surgeon: “I’;ve never seen it, heard of it or seen a case report, so it doesn’t sound plausible.”

          • Nick Sanders

            The way he tells it, the surgeon’s response was more like: “Shut up and put your dick on the cutting board while I grab the cleaver.

            Now hold still and don’t sneeze.”

          • Who?

            He goes into the whole story below, less pugnaciously than he has responded to you here.

            Then complains no one is kind to him here.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If they willingly signed up, they made the informed choice as they knew they could have their legs blown off, get PTSD or even die. Babies do not consent to having their dicks mutilated.

          • Mishimoo

            Somehow, your own train of logic does not apply to anything other than male circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Explain. Oh, that’s right, you never do.

          • Mishimoo

            It really is amazing that with all of your belief in the matriarchy, you still think willingly entering the armed forces is possible.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’ve never even mentioned the word matriarchy. I simply said women have more rights and privileges in Western society, which they do. You keep mentioning matriarchy.

          • Mishimoo

            Tsk tsk, I don’t sock-puppet.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Oh , you mean the guy who was also against circumcision who got banned? Yes, all anti-circumcision comments in the world are Lawrence.

          • Mishimoo

            Well, were you not implying that I was sock-puppeting? After all, that is the first time I have used the term matriarchy in this thread. I’m fairly sure that others have, and they’re not me. Or perhaps you have trouble keeping people straight.

          • Who?

            It’s a big word, and not in the Lawrie dictionary, though his fantasy version of reality describes what to me sounds like a pretty cool matriachy.

            Ideally of course everyone would be in a place that fits their talents and abilities, with gender as a side issue, but we aren’t there yet and won’t get there ever IMO.

          • Sue

            Well- it seems that many of them are.

            This Lawrie person has a history of ignorant, arrogant and dirisive posts elsewhere, folks. Imagine that much venom, over such a long time. Aren’t we lucky he found us?
            http://www.inside-man.co.uk/2015/01/15/male-circumcision-can-be-worse-than-fgm-rules-senior-judge/

          • Lawrence Newman

            Point out anything I said there that isn’t true. Back it up with hard science or GTFO.

            Your issue with me is I am capable of critical though. It’s YOU who’re on the victimhood bandwagon. FGM is BARBARIC but circumcision is not comparable. I know how you people think.

          • MaineJen

            Again with the “vaginal canal.” Have you ever even been with a real woman?

          • Wren

            Or perhaps his ex-girlfriend is good at faking it.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            You might like this. Because I’m finding many parallels.

        • Who?

          Oh begging for pity now, while conducting a rigged suffering competition that you always win.

          Sick boy.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m not begging for pity. Spare a thought for all the baby boys right this second who’re screaming their lungs out while their genitals are sliced and diced.

            Actually, better not mention that as you probably get off on it.

          • Mishimoo

            Considering how often you mention it as an option, it rather begs the question as to what you have replaced your self-confessed foreskin preference with during masturbation.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The foreskin isn’t a preference, it’s a normal part of the body. It’s like saying I have a preference for having my eyeballs. Derp

          • Mishimoo

            Oh dear, you ARE forgetful.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I will ask you again to explain. You will fail to explain again.

          • Mishimoo

            “Stretching and touching the tip of the foreskin is what allows you to reach proper orgasm.” – So that wasn’t you and neither were all of the times that it was insisted a decent orgasm is only possible with a foreskin?

          • Lawrence Newman

            While masturbating with phimosis I meant.

          • Mishimoo

            You didn’t specify, and have constantly insisted that the foreskin is what makes intact men able to climax and have enjoyable sexlives. Perhaps you should have put your point across better.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And I stand by what I said. During sex, the foreskin stretches back and forth behind the glans. It is highly erogenous, while the glans is simply a physical structure that allows easy penetration and allows the foreskin to rest over it while flaccid. Humans are the only primate to have evolved in a way where the majority of erogenous nerves are in the prepuce. In other primates, it’s the opposite way around.

            http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-mcgrath/

            “The rhesus monkey has fewer corpuscular receptors in the prepuce and more corpuscular receptors in the glans. In humans, however, the glans penis has few corpuscular receptors and predominant free nerve endings,19-20 consistent with protopathic sensibility. Protopathic simply refers to a low order of sensibility (consciousness of sensation), such as to deep pressure and pain, that is poorly localised. The cornea of the eye is also protopathic, since it can react to a very minute stimulus, such as a hair under the eyelid, but it can only localise which eye is affected and not the exact location of the hair within the conjunctival sac. As a result, the human glans penis has virtually no fine touch sensation and can only sense deep pressure and pain at a high threshold. This was first reported by the inventor of the aesthesiometer,21 and led Sir Henry Head to make his famous comparison with the back of the heel.22 While the human glans penis is protopathic, the prepuce contains a high concentration of touch receptors in the ridged band. In addition, intraepithelial nerves are identified in the common fused prepuce/glans penis epithelium of the three-month old rhesus monkey. In the female, the prepuce/glans clitoridis interface contains many corpuscular receptors in both humans and rhesus monkeys.”

            It’s because I was circumcised at 14 after using my foreskin that made me realise what is where. All the hard science tallies with my experience. Even just talking to intact men online has confirmed what I’m saying.

            I can show you proof in videos,too:

            http://www.can-fap.net/preview/fundraiser_preview_fremgasm.shtml

            http://www.can-fap.net/preview/fundraiser_preview_fremgasmMCJ.shtml

            http://www.can-fap.net/preview/fundraiser_preview_fremgasmlengthwise.shtml

            http://www.can-fap.net/preview/fundraiser_preview_multipleforegasm.shtml

          • Mishimoo

            You know, all of this just supports the notion that you’re merely displaying a new iteration of the standard small penis humiliation fetish (perhaps mixed with a medical one) and are here to engage others for personal gratification.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Again, you resort to mockery because you have no reasoned arguments. It’s fine by me. This is all recorded here for posterity.

          • Mishimoo

            Why should I repeat what many others have said? You didn’t believe them, why would anything I say convince you?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Knock yourself out. I’ll destroy your arguments like I did with their ones.

          • Mishimoo

            Except the only place that happened is inside your own head.

          • Charybdis

            Ahh, but you didn’t specify that,, now did you? And you have often, repeatedly and loudly insisted that the only way, ever, that any man on the planet can ever have an orgasm, despite a plethora of evidence to the contrary, is to involve a foreskin.
            As pedantic as you have been, you seem to have failed to bring that little piece (pun intended) of information to our collective attention.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” despite a plethora of evidence to the contrary”

            Fails to provide that evidence

          • Wren

            Masturbating with phimosis, an abnormal condition wherein get the foreskin is too tight. Might that condition affect masturbation practices and vary it from the more usual practice? Of course. Yet Lawrence still maintains that his preferred method is the only one.

            Maybe if Lawrence had discovered masturbation without phimosis he would have been able to notice the sensitivity of the rest of the penis and find other options.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I have discovered masturbation without phimosis, now I’m circumcised. Now I have to rub scar tissue at the frenular region. No pleasure. Just rubbing one or two nerves that are left to eventually get a weak ejaculation.

          • Wren

            Why bother?

            And why pretend that is what “masturbation without phimosis” normally is? Most men, cut or uncut, masturbate in the up and down motion that mimics sex. We have all seen the gesture that imitates that.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Circumcised men may mimic the motion but they can’t feel the pleasure as they have no ridged band or frenular delta. What you think you know is wrong.

          • Wren

            OK. You’ve convinced me. Millions of men the world over are, in fact, wrong and feel no pleasure while you and a small band of fellow misfits are right.

          • Lawrence Newman

            100-150 million women are circumcised. Do they all get loads of pleasure just because they exist? That’s your logic.

          • Wren

            It probably depends a lot on the woman involved and the type of circumcision. Most cases of FGM are done specifically to reduce female pleasure, to stop a woman wanting sex. She is then expected to do her duty with her husband but won’t want to stray with other men.

            That is not the explicit purpose of male circumcision.

            In my limited personal experience, I’ve never known a woman who claims pleasure from any form of FGM more severe than removal of the clitoral hood. I have known many circumcised men who claim sexual pleasure and a couple circumcised after the onset of puberty who claim better sensitivity and better sex post-circumcision. I’m certain you believe these men are lying though.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “That is not the explicit purpose of male circumcision.

            Actually, if you research the history of circumcision that’s precisely why it was done. The reasons given now are post hoc rationalisations. And the reasons given for FGM are wide and varied and very similar to the reasons given for MGM. Stop drinking the feminist kool-aid. Women FGM other women.

            “and a couple circumcised after the onset of puberty who claim better sensitivity and better sex post-circumcision. I’m certain you believe these men are lying though.”

            Well I don’t believe in magic. That’s like saying, I cut off my left leg but I can feel my left leg even more now.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, if you research the history of circumcision that’s precisely why it was done.

            By Kellog. Of course, he insisted it should wait until the boy was old enough to remember it, to form a painful memory. He also recommended pouring carbolic acid on little girls’ vaginas. You’ll notice however, we don’t actually do things his way.

            And circumcision is a lot older than his recommendations.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, it is. It was done to deny earthly pleasure well before this.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The frenular area is the only area of the periah-circumcised penis with a hint of fine touch reception. This is because the frenulum, frenular delta and ridged band are the erogenous tissue. Most circumcised men only have the frenulum remnant or where the frenulum used to be. That’s the sweet spot. The glans and smooth mucosa feel of nothing.

          • Wren

            Weirdly, the glans sure does feel something to most men.

          • Lawrence Newman

            no, it really doesn’t.

          • Wren

            I’m certain you know better than all other men what they feel.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well yes, I do, because I experienced both and have studied the histology.

          • Wren

            Your arrogance is astounding.

            You studied the histology? Where did you get your degree and at which university did you conduct this study? Where are you published?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Appeal to credentials fallacy. American doctors have degrees and virtually none of them understand what the foreskin is as they aren’t taught.

          • Wren

            Nice change of subject. Where did you do this study? Or do you mean you read some stuff you found on the internet?

          • Nick Sanders

            Maybe in you they feel of nothing, but in my experience they are quite touch sensitive, and while I don’t generally go around asking other guys about their penises, that seems to be the general impression I’ve gathered about them as well.

          • Who?

            Well your anecdote, and your assumptions about everyone else are wrong, wrong, wrong.

            Only Lawrie knows anything (well, actually everything) about this topic, and the rest of the world is wrong, on the take, lying to themselves etc, etc.

            Cue Lawrie’s pity party. Or did I miss it already?

          • Wren

            Don’t worry. The pity party is never ending. Losing out on great sex, or at least a 14 year old’s masturbatory fantasies of great sex, means he has nothing left in life but his everlasting pity party.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The glans is not erogenous. As histological analysis proves. You’ve convinced yourself of this. It’s a coping mechanism

          • Nick Sanders

            I have nothing to cope with. The damn thing was sensitive long before I gave a damn about sex.

          • AllieFoyle

            Why is your experience the only one that is credible? I know it’s a difficult concept, but maybe, just maybe people differ, and what’s true for you isn’t necessarily the case for someone else, especially if he’s explicitly saying that it isn’t the case.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You are right. I should have realised some men have magic penises.

          • Charybdis

            They use anesthetics now, didn’t you know? Of course not. It doesn’t fit your narrow narrative and worldview. Go sell it someplace else; we’re not buying.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Actually, many infant circumcisions are carried out without anaesthetic

          • Charybdis

            How…interesting. When I was interviewing pediatricians, the ones that did do circumcisions (some didn’t) ALL used anesthetic. Local, regional anesthesia. There may be some that don’t use any, but most do/will.

          • Lawrence Newman

            https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

            Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.

            Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia – only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don’t? They didn’t think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour – if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not begging for pity.

            Like hell you aren’t.

          • Charybdis

            But you just said we should pity you. Granted, not outright pleading per se; more of a command, slightly tinged with indignation.

        • MaineJen

          You don’t think rape can cause physical and sexual damage as well as guaranteed psychological trauma? That makes you the worst kind of MRA. You are boring. GO AWAY.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Actually, psychological damage isn’t GUARANTEED. IT depends on the individual. Just as some circumcised men aren’t traumatised. But circumcision ALWAYS causes physical damage. An unsolicited penis in a vagina does not cause irreversible genital mutilation for life.

            You could say a violent attack alongside the rape like a man cutting off her vulva would cause physical damage. But then that’s simply reinforcing my point.

            I’m not an MRA. I’m a human rights activist.

          • MaineJen

            Lawrence. We’re not buying it. You sound ridiculous. Just stop.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I will never stop telling the truth to ignoramuses like you. Strap yourself in. This could go on for years.

          • Mishimoo

            Or until disqus buckles under the weight of your self-importance.

          • Wren

            “Cutting off her vulva”? Do you have any idea what that would actually entail? It’s a hell of a lot more than a bit of skin.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Just like cutting off the prepuce of the male is more than cutting off skin. Suddenly it’s not just skin when it’s a woman. Interesting

          • Wren

            Seriously, it would involve far more than skin and nerves. Take a good look at an anatomy text. It would be far more equivalent to cutting off the entire penis, plus the skin around the scrotum. Comparing the foreskin to the vulva is evidence of your lack of knowledge.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” It would be far more equivalent to cutting off the entire penis, ”

            This makes no logical sense. A man without a penis can’t have sex. A woman without a vulva can. A woman also doesn’t need scrotal skin to keep her balls in place, does she.

            “Comparing the foreskin to the vulva is evidence of your lack of knowledge.”

            No, it’s because you’re brainwashed. You just said it’s like cutting off the penis. That’s absurd.

          • Wren

            The vulva includes the vaginal opening. It’d be pretty hard to have sex without that.

          • Lawrence Newman

            A woman without a vulva can be penetrated. A man without a penis cannot penetrate. Do you understand now?

          • Wren

            Are you insane? A woman without a vulva would have no vaginal entrance, and would in all likelihood not want whatever scar-covered hole that might remain penetrated by anything.

            Cutting off the vulva would be far more severe than infibulation. To claim it is still somehow better than the removal of the foreskin just illustrates your true misogyny and lack of any sense of proportion.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” A woman without a vulva would have no vaginal entrance”

            Rubbish

            “Cutting off the vulva would be far more severe than infibulation.”

            More damaging in terms of sensory loss maybe, but not more damaging physically.

            “To claim it is still somehow better than the removal of the foreskin just illustrates your true misogyny and lack of any sense of proportion.”

            Yes, critical thought is misogyny.

          • Wren

            What on earth do you think the vulva is?

          • Lawrence Newman

            External genitalia. What do you think it is?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Lawrence Newman

            vulva
            ˈvʌlvə/
            noun
            ANATOMY
            the female external genitals.
            What I said.

          • Nick Sanders

            As in the entire thing, not just a small flap of skin.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If the foreskin is skin, the vulva is skin. The foreskin is a double layered tube that’s 5 by 3 inches squared when unrolled.

          • Wren

            And the vulva is a much larger area, consisting of skin, fat, mucous membranes and muscle. Sooooo much less than a double layered tube which unrolls to a whole 15 sq inches.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “And the vulva is a much larger area”

            Are you sure about that? Is it bigger than 5 by 3 inches square? Is it more densely innervated?

            The foreskin contains skin, fat, mucous membrane and muscle, too.

          • Wren

            Yes, I’m sure.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Got any proof?

          • Wren

            Are you sure you’ve ever been near a woman?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well we’ve already established the “glans penis is erogenous ” is a folk theory. And you expect me to just accept a few anecdotes?

            I’ve spoken to a few women about this and many have said I’m right, that it’s the clitoral hood that’s way more erogenous than the clitoris.

          • Wren

            No, you have stated without evidence that the penis it not erogenous.

            Your clitoral hood theory is just bizarre.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “No, you have stated without evidence that the penis it not erogenous.

            No I haven’t. The foreskin is part of the penis.

            “Your clitoral hood theory is just bizarre.

            Really? If it is bizarre, you’d be able to easily rebut it with neurological studies.

          • Wren

            OK, the glans penis.

            In most cases, the clitoral hood could not possibly be stimulated without stimulating the clitoris.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The glans penis has no significant erogenous properties. That’s a folk theory.

            As for the glans clitoris, I don’t know for sure if it’s the primary erogenous tissue, but it seems highly unlikely given what I know about the glans penis. Unless it becomes completely differently innervated during development.

            I certainly haven’t seen any neurological proof the clitoris has the majority of fine touch receptors.

          • Wren

            You have an odd definition of “folk theory”.

            Sexual response from the vast majority of circumcised men outweighs your claimed histology, especially given the importance of context and variety of preferred stimulation in human sexual response. Different individuals prefer different stimulation, even with the same basic neurological and histology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You can’t derive erogenous sensation from protopathic nerves. There is zero neurological evidence the glans penis is erogenous. It IS a folk theory.

            Are you saying now that the glans clitoris isn’t highly erogeneous in many women then? If so, female circumcision should be made legal like male circumcision … because everybody’s different!!111one

          • Wren

            A) There is at least one person out there who derives erogenous sensation from just about every possible neurological stimulation. Many men experience erogenous pleasure from stimulation of the penis post circumcision. I know you feel this undermines your claims and your desire to see circumcision made illegal, but it remains a fact. Dismissing it as “magic penises” or a folk theory undermines your argument far more. Your insistence that it does not happen actually makes everything else you say seem less reliable and frankly easier to ignore. No one denies that some men experience a total loss of erogenous sensation and pleasure post-circumcision while some others experience a reduction, but claiming all circumcised men experience no sexual pleasure from stimulating the penis post-circumcision is simply an untrue claim.

            B) I never made that claim.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Any pleasure circumcised men get is directly related to how much ridged band, frenular delta and frenulum they have left. Most circumcised men have only the frenulum (a tiny scrap of little significance) and a huge portion don’t even have that.

            ” but claiming all circumcised men experience no sexual pleasure from stimulating the penis post-circumcision is simply an untrue claim.”

            For all intents and purposes it is true. There may be one or two who were very very lucky and had less severe ones but almost all circumcisions remove all the erogenous parts.

            http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf

            “CONCLUSIONS
            The glans of the circumcised penis is less
            sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the
            uncircumcised penis. The transitional region
            from the external to the internal prepuce
            is the most sensitive region of the
            uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than
            the most sensitive region of the circumcised
            penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive
            parts of the penis.”

            I know 3 other men who are not working due to PTSD because of this. You are saying all these men should just “man up”?

            Pathetic.

          • Wren

            What? An anti-circ site makes claims that circumcision causes loss of sexual sensation? What next? A shampoo with instructions to lather, rinse AND repeat?
            Losing the most sensitive parts does not equal having no sensation. High sensitivity isn’t always ideal anyway. Increasing sensitivity in breasts through pregnancy can, as addressed elsewhere on this thread, be a very negative thing.
            Yes, I am saying they and you should grow up and behave like mature adults. There are many, many people in this world with PTSD from one event or another. Most do not use it as a reason to avoid behaving like mature adults. Get (and accept) the help needed to move forward with life.

          • Lawrence Newman
          • Wren

            “For all intents and purposes it is true” “may be one or two who were lucky”
            Maybe the vast majority were “lucky” and you were particularly unlucky? Maybe your experience is not universal?
            Nah, those men are all in denial, fake wanting sex and enjoying it and you are 100% correct.
            You are like the women who come here saying pain relief isn’t needed in labour because they didn’t need it. You are both incapable of comprehending that others may have a different experience to you.

          • Lawrence Newman
          • Nick Sanders

            I’m starting to wonder if he’s been near other humans at all.

          • Nick Sanders

            The foreskin contains skin, fat, mucous membrane and muscle, too.

            Ahhahahaha, no, sweetie, no.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, darling, I’m afraid so.

          • Lawrence Newman
          • Wren

            Your own link fails to mention fat. Even if it did, there is far more fat in just the mons pubis, ignoring the rest of the vulva, than could possibly exist in the foreskin. The foreskin is very thin (perhaps you have forgotten?) and able to be laid flat in a way that the vulva, with it’s far greater third dimension, could not. Layering the vulva as thinly as the foreskin would lead to a far greater area.

          • Lawrence Newman

            FAILS TO MENTION FAT!!!!111one Oh, well, I guess the absence of fat means circumcision isn’t damaging. ffs Retard.

          • Wren

            Just further evidence your knowledge is far more lacking than you think.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Nope.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Also, degree of damage isn’t necessarily related to amount of tissue cut off. It depends on what type of tissue and how densely innervated it is.

            Do you have a neurological analysis which qualifies and quantifies the erogenous nerves in the foreskin and the vulva?

            Thought not. So it’s you surmising cutting off the vulva is worse.

          • Wren

            There is no such thing as an erogenous nerve. The vulva is, however, densely innervated.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Fine touch nerves are erogenous. Free nerves aren’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_membrane

            “The basic function of the cell membrane is to protect the cell from its surroundings. It consists of the phospholipid bilayer with embedded proteins.”

            There are lipids in all the cells of the body, dumbass. Lipid = fat.

          • Nick Sanders

            Not the same thing as actual fat cells though. False equivalence is false.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adipose_tissue

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s still fat. I like how you’re OCD’ing over this tiny point and ignoring the important issues. lol

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m the one ignoring the important issues? You are the one insisting a vulva is the same as a foreskin, but less important. To the point that you are comparing cell membranes to a fully fledged tissue type. You’re either a moron or insane.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I didn’t say it was less important, I said there is no evidence more erogenous sensation and functionality is lost via removal of the vulva compared to removal of the foreskin.

            Unless you quantify and qualify the erogenous nerves of the vulva/vagina and the glans/foreksin, there’s no way of knowing for sure. But what I do know is that the glans penis is essentially non-erogenous (protopathic) and virtually all the erogenous sensation is in the foreskin. So how can the cutting off of the vulva be worse than the removal of all sexual pleasure?

          • Nick Sanders

            Get a life, and stop being a fucking idiot. Repeating your nonsense a thousand times does not make it any more true than the first time.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It is a fact that almost all erogenous nerves are in the foreskin. I will keep repeating it for 10 years if necessary. The truth needs to be told; babies’ welfare depends on it.

          • Nick Sanders

            You can lie all you want, won’t make it the truth.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m not lying. I wouldn’t be on here still if I was. I know for a fact what I’m saying is true. Hence why you haven’t been able to disprove what I’ve said.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The only reason you’re still on here arguing is because it scares you that I might be right. You don’t want to admit to being sexually dysfunctional. What you feel is irrelevant. IT’s a fact that you are, as are all genitally mutilated men. It’s not my fault. I oppose this barbarism.

          • Nick Sanders

            The only reason you’re still on here arguing is because it scares you that I might be right.

            No, it’s because I’m pissed that your an idiot who saw a post about a problem women have, and you decided to come in here and make it all about Lawrence’s dick. Fuck off anywhere else, and I won’t give a shit what you have to say, but this is not your blog, and this post is not about you, so get a life and let other people have their own space, you fucking jackass.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s about all male dicks actually because no male has the right to genital integrity.

            I own this page now, laddie. Get used to it. I’ll still be here in 20 years. Do you have the stamina?

          • MaineJen

            Saying you’ll still be here in 20 years doesn’t make you right, it doesn’t make you righteous and it doesn’t mean you “won.” It makes you pathetic. I have no doubt that you’ll still be spewing the same drivel on totally unrelated blog comment sections (or whatever the equivalent forum will be in 20 years) 20 years hence. But you’ll be alone.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I have won because I can win any debate with any doctor on this. No doctor can prove me wrong that the glans is non-erogenous. Fact.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            He’s not going to go away. He’s a prime example of this saying. Just replace anti-vaxxer with rabid anti-circ zealot.

          • MaineJen

            It’s not, though. It’s a microscopic structure that makes up part of the cell membrane. It’s not the same thing as body fat. You are displaying your ignorance to us on a silver platter. It’s like Christmas in here today.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s still fat, babe.

          • Wren

            You truly are an idiot. Fat as a tissue is not the same thing as the phospholipid bilayer.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Lipid is still fat, sweetie

          • Wren

            It is not fat tissue. Talk about needing spoon feeding.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            His Alma Mater must be so proud of that biology degree they gave him.

            I mean, damn son, I only took one semester of community college anatomy and physiology but I nearly spit my drink out at cell membrane lipids = subcutaneous body fat!

          • Lawrence Newman

            Still fat, babe

          • Wren

            No. No it isn’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, babe.

          • MaineJen

            Oh my god, Lawrie. Stop. Phospholipid bilayer is the same as body fat? Do me a favor and go look up on wikipedia exactly what a phospholipid bilayer is, and then tell me who sounds like a dumbass here.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Didn’t say it’s the same. I said it’s still fat. Learn to read.

          • Roadstergal

            That’s an absolutely amazing definition of fat. By that definition, the HIV capsid is fatty tissue (and necessary for erogenous sensation in the male, I guess).

            This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere! Explain to me again how sheep’s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

          • Who?

            I”d read that.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s still fat. And that’s a fact.

          • Wren

            No, it totally does, in a greater proportion than any old vuvla too. The foreskin makes up approximately 95% of the body and any loss by a woman could never be equal to losing the foreskin. Really! It’s true!

          • Who?

            I’m thinking there may be some people who also had brain cells and empathy glands in there too.

            Now sadly lost.

          • Charybdis

            That’s for an adult. It is considerably smaller in a baby. And before you start spluttering about that fact, I don’t see how you can deny that the foreskin IS smaller in an infant.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And? Cutting it off means the adult has no foreskin. lol ffs Babies legs are smaller,too. And?

          • Lawrence Newman

            And the vulva of a baby girl is smaller than the vulva of an adult woman. Any more mental gymnastics?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m tired of you being a dumbshit, so here:

            http://image.slidesharecdn.com/vulvanewest-140721180435-phpapp01/95/cancer-of-the-vulva-12-638.jpg?cb=1405966082

            I apologize to the regulars that this is NSFW.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I wasn’t meaning cutting off the mons pubis and perineum because there is no category of FGM which removes that. I thought you knew that. I mean the removal of the clitoris, clitoral hood and labia. I suppose I should have realised you wouldn’t know what I was talking about.

          • Nick Sanders

            You weren’t meaning it, but you kept saying it. What constitutes the vulva doesn’t change just because you are ignorant and stubborn

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well now you know what I was meaning, so you can now get back to your mental gymnastics and denial of the foreskin being the primary erogenous tissue. Anything to keep you from feeling sexually dysfunctional.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh no, you don’t get to just go “I’m Humpty Dumpty, words mean what I want them to” and walk away from this. You are a fucking idiot, and you need to own up to the fact that regardless of what you thought you meant, what you were saying was absolutely, unbelievably wrong.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m the idiot because you aren’t aware that no category of FGM removes the mons pubis and perineum? DErp!

          • Nick Sanders

            You are the one that said “remove the vulva”. So yes, you’re an idiot because you suggested an entirely new level of surgery and insisted on passing yourself off as talking about something that already happened.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I realise I made an error in assuming you knew what I meant. Unfortunately I overlooked the fact you’re a retard. I won’t make that mistake again.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, the problem is that you didn’t know what you were saying, regardless of what you mentally intended.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I knew what I was saying. You invented a new brand of FGM which no authority recognises.

          • Nick Sanders

            Nope, that was you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I didn’t. It’s not common but sometimes females do have their clitoris, clitoral hood and labia cut off.

          • Nick Sanders

            But you insisted a woman having her “vulva” cut off would not be as badly off as a circumcised man.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I made the mistake in thinking you’d know what brand of FGM I was referring to. But you invented a new brand.

          • Wren

            Infibulation is about 10% of FGM, but you handwaved it away when I brought it up.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I didn’t. I said it’s one of the rarest forms of FGM.

          • Wren

            You said it was effectively irrelevant, particularly in terms of loss of sexual pleasure, and should not be considered in the comparison of FGM and male circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I didn’t. I said it was extremely rare and there was no evidence it removed more erogenous sensation than male genital mutilation.

          • Wren

            10% is far more common than death or loss of the penis from male circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Maybe , but far more males die from MGM than females die from FGM.

          • Wren

            Citation please.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s simply a numbers game. 10 times the number of males are mutilated as females. Most in the third world.

            Funny, I never saw any citations when anti-FGM activists claimed more women die from FGM than males die from MGM??? I’m just meant to accept that. Yet over 100 males die from MGM in the US alone every yr, and that’s in sterile conditions.

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa

            Of course they’re not going to record this information because then it will expose the reality, that baby boys are dying in far higher numbers than girls due to this….

            “The human devastation left in the wake of these traditions is horrifying. A recent report by South Africa’s Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities calculated that in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo provinces alone at least 419 boys have died since 2008, and more than 456,000 initiates have been hospitalised with complications.”

            http://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html

          • Wren

            Please don’t forget to include women and infants dying from pregnancy and childbirth complications related to circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well that’s going to be a very low number indeed.

          • Wren

            Oh how I wish it were.

          • Wren

            And that is still less than the removal of the vulva you suggested.

            I’m fairly certain Lawrence did not, in fact, understand what he was saying and spent the time he was away from us, at least in part, learning what a foolish suggestion he made. He has now returned to claim he never made such a foolish suggestion at all.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I mistakenly assumed you weren’t a retard. I apologise. I’ll spell it out for you in future.

          • Wren

            It’s ok to admit you were wrong Lawrence. It is a far more grown up response than attacking others for your own mistakes or misunderstandings. Of course, if you could do that, you likely would not be wasting your life and tax payer money based on a circumcision however many years ago.

          • Lawrence Newman

            People get compensation for whiplash. Why don’t people get compensation for being mutilated?

            Taxpayers money is being wasted due to the fallout due to medical negligence. I know other men who are in the same situation. Oh wait, it’s the victim’s fault, I forgot.

          • Wren

            You were 14. It really is time to pick up the pieces. You are not physically incapable of working. You simply choose not to. There are men out there who have totally lost their penis who manage to go on with their lives. There are people of both genders who manage to function in the world with no sensation below the waist. Your wallowing in this issue is a waste.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” You are not physically incapable of working. You simply choose not to”

            Really? That’s weird considering my general practitioner and every therapist I’ve been to says otherwise.

          • Wren

            You are physically incapable of any kind of work yet more than capable of spending days posting here, not to mention your claimed degree and all the “research” you have done?
            You might not be psychologically capable as yet, in which case you need to get help, but physically incapable? Nope.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why should I work for a system that ruined my life? A system that despises men?

          • Wren

            A system that ruined your life? Don’t work for the NHS then.

            A system that despises men? Oh your misogyny is showing again.

            You should work for your own life, your own self-respect and because you so very clearly need something else in your life. There is more to life than sexual pleasure, and you definitely need to make an effort to find something else.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “A system that despises men? Oh your misogyny is showing again.

            It’s a demonstrable fact. Your very response here exemplifies that. When a man points out the reality of society, he’s called a misogynist. You hate men pointing out facts.

            “There is more to life than sexual pleasure”

            That’s like saying to a rape victim who didn’t get justice, there’s more to life than rapists being prosecuted. MOVE ON AND WOMAN UP!

          • Wren

            a) It’s a demonstrable fact that the system (made up primarily of white males in the UK) despises men? Hahahaha. I needed a good laugh.
            b) No, it’s like saying to any person who cannot achieve sexual pleasure for whatever reason that there is more to life than sexual pleasure. And just for the record, most rapists are not prosecuted, let alone convicted, and the prosecution itself is generally very difficult for the victim.

          • Wren

            Whiplash? If it is somehow done with consent, I don’t think they do get compensation. Your parents consented. The result was, according to you, exactly as it should have been.

          • Lawrence Newman

            My parent’s didn’t give informed consent. If a woman consents to vaginal sex and the man sticks it up her bum, has she consented? If a surgeon says I’m just going to perform a minor therapeutic operation that won’t harm you at all and then cuts off your leg, did you consent?

            No other options were given. I had no problem because tight foreskin that causes no pain is not a medical problem. It should have been left alone. My parents nor I were told circumcision wasn’t necessary and never is, or that there were steroid creams/stretching exercises, or that circumcision was a religious act of sexual suppression adopted for sex negative reasons, or that all the erogenous nerves are in the foreskin.

            Consent was not given.

          • Wren

            You consistently used the phrase “cut off the vulva” while apparently meaning something different. When I explained the problem with it, asked you to define the vulva (which you clearly could not do) and even defined the extent for you, you still stuck to that phrase. Misusing language is indeed your fault. Continuing to do so after your error has been pointed out was, yes, idiotic.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m sorry for overlooking the fact you need spoonfed.

          • Wren

            I’m sorry you do not understand correct anatomical terms.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            But does that equal fifteen square inches? That seems to be the magic number. And don’t you dare bring a third dimension into this! Women and their third dimensions! Ugh!

          • Nick Sanders

            Even by his own link, the foreskin isn’t 15 square inches. The average was about 7.6, with the largest being 10.

          • Charybdis

            No mental gymnastics necessary. Just stating a fact. You keep babbling on and on about the size of the foreskin and how it is 5 x 3 inches when unrolled. It is not that size in an infant, and more realistically something like 8 to 10 square inches in an adult.

            As for mental gymnastics, you are gyrating all over the place, spinning out of control and when you are corrected on your terminology (i.e. Vulva ), you then state that is not what you meant and we should have known that. So yeah, you come off as dismissive and fairly cavalier about facts you don’t like and insisting that other peoples’ experiences, both direct and indirect, are simply wrong because they don’t match or agree with yours. You can say that your personal experience is different and has left you injured, scarred, maimed, depressed, bitter, jaded and angry, but you cannot say that others experiences are wrong because they find sex just as or more pleasurable after circumcision (if circed after puberty) or that they enjoy sex and have plenty of penile sensitivity if they were circed as infants.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “but you cannot say that others experiences are wrong because they find sex just as or more pleasurable after circumcision (if circed after puberty) or that they enjoy sex and have plenty of penile sensitivity if they were circed as infants.”

            Actually ,I can very easily, because magic penises which defy neurological reality do not exist. You’re referring to men who’ve never used their foreskin and who can’t understand what they’ve lost. Of course their fragile egos won’t allow them to say , hang on, I am mutilated and can’t feel sex.

          • Wren

            Can you demonstrate that you know what “external genitalia” means with regards to the human female?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Can you?

          • Wren

            I take it you cannot.

          • AllieFoyle

            Wren, don’t you get it? She can still be penetrated! Why, she’d be so much better off than a circumcised male.

          • Wren

            Define it further. “External genitalia” is too simplistic.

            What areas does it include and exclude? How much of the vagina is included? What other organs are included?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Google is your friend.

          • Wren

            If you do not know the answer, feel free to google it.

          • Wren

            Just in case you are somehow unable to look it up, the vulva extends from the top of the mons pubis to the perineum. Imagine skinning a male from basically the top of the pubic hair down to just before the anus, removing any intervening structures. That would be equivalent to cutting off the vulva.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s always worse when it’s a woman, right. You don’t realise that in terms of sensory loss, removing the vulva isn’t even as bad as removing the foreskin. Women still have their vaginal canal. The man has the non -erogenous glans.

          • Wren

            Your evidence that the vaginal canal is more “erogenous” than the glans plenty of men seem to find perfectly fine is…?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I didn’t say it was more erogenous than the glans. However, given that the glans has been proven to be essentially non-erogenous, it’s a reasonable conclusion to draw that the vaginal canal IS more erogenous, you know, considering women get pleasure from penetrative sex. Unless you’re claiming women get no pleasure from penetrative sex?

          • Wren

            a) Men who have been circumcised do, in most cases, claim to get pleasure from penetrative sex.

            b) Many women do not, in fact, orgasm from penetrative sex alone. This is well known.

            c) Penetrative sex does not stimulate the vaginal canal alone, but much of the vulva as well. In many positions, the clitoris is well stimulated. This is a necessary condition for many women to reach orgasm.

            d) The vaginal canal doubles as a birth canal, during which it is stretched incredibly and copes with intense pressure and, often, tearing. Fine touch nerves in this area would increase the pain of birth tremendously.

            It is not reasonable given those facts to draw the conclusion that the vaginal canal has more fine touch nerves than the glans.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Men who have been circumcised do, in most cases, claim to get pleasure from penetrative sex.”

            Yes, they CLAIM. And most have been cut at birth. Not many men want to admit to being sexually dysfunctional. Most FGM victims don’t complain. Your logic: FGM doesn’t affect sexual pleasure.

            “Many women do not, in fact, orgasm from penetrative sex alone. This is well known.”

            Many do.

            “Penetrative sex does not stimulate the vaginal canal alone, but much of the vulva as well. In many positions, the clitoris is well stimulated. This is a necessary condition for many women to reach orgasm.”

            then why did my ex orgasm from doggy

            “The vaginal canal doubles as a birth canal, during which it is stretched incredibly and copes with intense pressure and, often, tearing. Fine touch nerves in this area would increase the pain of birth tremendously.”

            Not necessarily.

          • Wren

            So you firmly believe that women vary enough to orgasm from different types of stimulation but all men who believe and evidence sexual pleasure post-circumcision are wrong?

            If the vagina had these amazing “erogenous” nerves you are claiming without evidence, then inserting a tampon would be a wonderful pleasure. Too bad it isn’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The neurology of the glans and foreskin are known–glans is non-erogenous, foreskin is highly erogenous. I didn’t say the vagina was the MOST erogenous, I said it stands to reason it will have erogenous nerves. Saying it’s more erogenous than the non-erogenous glans penis isn’t the same as saying the vaginal canal is the hub of erogenous sensation.

            There is a lot of folklore surrounding the genitals of both sexes. I am not aware of one peer-reviewed neurological study which proves the glans clitoris is the hub of pleasure as popular culture claims. You would call me mad for disputing it, yet all I’m asking for is scientific evidence. Great claims require great evidence.

          • MaineJen

            b) is well known *to those who have actually had sex.* That’s why Lawrie isn’t getting this…

          • Nick Sanders

            However, given that the glans has been proven to be essentially non-erogenous,

            Your repeated assertions do not constitute actual proof.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’ve already linked you to peer-reviewed histological analysis.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m sorry, scooping out the pelvis with a melon baller isn’t as much sensory loss as a small band of skin? What the fuck kind of drugs are you on?

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s not just skin. Why do you keep calling it “just skin”. It’s called the prepuce and it’s an organ. It’s very densely innervated.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because you keep referring to the vulva as analogous. It’s as if you were complaining that you had your lips cut off, but a woman would be okay if her face was removed, because she’d still have her throat.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well considering all the erogenous nerves are in the foreskin, it’s not controversial to say that the equivalent would involve removal of the erogenous tissue from the vulva and even removal of any erogenous nerves present in the vaginal canal.

          • Nick Sanders

            Not controversial, no. Incredibly stupid, yes.

          • AllieFoyle

            God, it’s just amazing then that so many circumcised men manage to have functional, fulfilling sexual lives given their complete lack of erogenous nervous. You’d almost think they wouldn’t be able to function at all if that were the case. Amazing.

          • Wren

            They just don’t realise that they feel nothing. Lawrence knows best.

          • Lawrence Newman

            God, it’s just amazing then that so many circumcised women manage to have functional, fulfilling sexual lives given their complete lack of erogenous nervous. You’d almost think they wouldn’t be able to function at all if that were the case. Amazing.

            See how easy it is to vomit assumptions?

          • AllieFoyle

            You’ve made some statements about anatomy that have been a bit iffy before, but this is crazy talk.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You do not know the difference between anatomy and neurology.

          • AllieFoyle

            I suspect I know a great deal more about both subjects than you do.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Au contraire. You THINK you do but you’ve been brainwashed by profit making American establishments on this

          • AllieFoyle

            I suppose you’re right — if by “profit making American establishments” you mean universities, research institutes, academic publishers, etc.

            They’re all part of a big feminist cabal determined to keep you and your penis down.

          • MaineJen

            Wow. You really know nothing about female anatomy. You really are embarrassing yourself.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Care to enlighten me with some neurological evidence? thought not.

        • Box of Salt

          Lawrence Newman “You should pity me”

          I do pity you.

          Why? What do you think you are doing here this week, commenting on this website, arguing with strangers on the internet? Do you think this is activism? Are you spreading awareness of an issue that’s important to you?

          Well, it’s not. All you’ve done is show a bunch of strangers your own obsessions and your inability to engage any viewpoints that differ from your own.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You mean engage with people who refuse to accept neurological facts.

      • Who?

        Sounds like we’re on parallet tracks.

        Do we still think he’s real though?

        • Nick Sanders

          If he’s not real, he is incredibly committed to this shtick.

          • Who?

            Suppose so. At least we’re keeping him away from the impressionable who might take his points seriously.

    • Mishimoo

      Oh goodness, he’s still going on? It’s actually mildly impressive, I thought he would have stuck the flounce by now.

  • Lawrence Newman

    http://www.circinfo.org/Circumcision_and_sexual_function.html

    Brian Morris, the notorious circumsexual and possible homosexual paedophile, debunked. Circumcision lowers sexual pleasure significantly.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    I shouldn’t have been provoked into doing this. I know better. But I looked up what actual men circumcised as adults had to say about what it did to sexual pleasure. In this study, 87.5% of men who underwent circumcision as adults said that their sexual pleasure was enhanced by the operation. 1% said it was decreased. (Caution: Contains potentially NSFW picture of penis.)

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137510

    • Roadstergal

      And it wasn’t the ideal population – sexually active adults, >2% with STIs.

      “Virtually all (99.5%) of the men were very satisfied with the appearance of their circumcised penis, and all would recommend a ShangRing circumcision to friends or family members. The most prevalent reported advantage of the circumcision was the ease of bathing and enhanced cleanliness of the penis (75.8%). 94.3% of the men did not cite a single negative feature of their circumcision.”

      It also improved condom use.

    • Lawrence Newman

      How can sexual pleasure be enhanced by cutting off erogenous nerves? That’s impossible. Total and utter fraud, as usual, carried out on African men who aren’t available for contact.

      When you say MGM increases sexual pleasure, you are saying FGM increases sexual pleasure . You can’t pick and choose.

      • Wren

        Men and women are not identical. Male and female circumcision are not identical.

        • Roadstergal

          We’ve already seen he’s very, very confused about biology in general, and women in particular. I’m actually quite happy he’s decided to stay away from women. They’re better off for it.

        • Lawrence Newman

          They are identical in principle. You cannot cut off erogenous tissue as the foreskin is and increase sensation. This is impossible.

    • Wren

      It’s all lies!!! Anything that does not match Lawrence’s experience is all lies!!! No man who has been circumcised could possibly enjoy sex because he doesn’t. It is impossible to enjoy sex in any way other than he says. And women control everything, hence their elevated status worldwide.

      • Roadstergal

        I’m Queen of North America. You just haven’t heard about it because of the Jewish Elite who rule everything. Jon Stewart gave me a throne made of foreskins. (It’s actually a barstool, but if I rub on it a bit, it turns to a throne.)

      • Lawrence Newman

        Wren: Feelings trump neurological facts.

        • Wren

          The mind is the most erogenous organ.

          • Roadstergal

            Or in his case, the least.

          • Lawrence Newman

            BRB just having a mindgasm.

    • Wren

      More evidence:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937309

      Of course, Lawrence dismisses any self-reporting.

      • Roadstergal

        And objective measures, such as ability to achieve an erection.

        • Wren

          Ah, but those probably aren’t full, strong erections. Just because those having and observing the erections think they are doesn’t mean they actually are.

          • Roadstergal

            We need objective criteria for fullness, throbbingness, and, possibly, the ability to beat Brad nails through baseboards. Oh, if only I could get a grant…

          • Wren

            I think that would be an excellent study, but don’t forget the histology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why would we consider histology? WE all know it’s about the anecdotes.

          • Azuran

            Especially yours.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, but it’s a real experience and I’ve backed it up with hard science. Youv’e backed up imaginary anecdotes with more imaginary anecdotes.

          • Azuran

            So, about my imaginary anecdote. Are you claiming that my boyfriend, or his foreskin, is fake?

          • Lawrence Newman

            You could be making him up. But he could just be someone who’s not localising his feelings. He’s not paying attention if he exists.

          • Azuran

            Not paying attention to what?

          • Nick Sanders

            If my experience is imaginary, then how do I stop imagining you?

          • Sue

            This Lawrie person appears to know nothing of either hardness or science.

          • Roadstergal

            He’s spent two solid days providing copious quantities of data to support your hypothesis.

          • Nick Sanders

            I disagree, at least partly. I’m fairly certain his head outranks diamond on the Vickers scale.

          • Sue

            I wasn’t thinking about his head…at least, not THAT head.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Au contraire. You just can’t handle the facts.

          • Roadstergal

            Not especially, _only_ his. Everybody else is deluded, brainwashed, or lying. Except Lawrence. He’s the only person whose anecdotes can be trusted.

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t forget, you have to measure their orgasms too, so you’ll need volumetric measurements, a seismograph to see how much the earth moves, and possibly a money-shot-ometer to measure distance.

          • Roadstergal

            “and possibly a money-shot-ometer to measure distance”

            You know, it’s funny that you mention that, because the two guys I’ve been with who could reliably hit the wall behind the bed when having non-penetrative fun were both cut. I’m sure it’s a sign of their lack of sensation – somehow.

          • Nick Sanders

            Now that’s a stain I wouldn’t want to have to explain to the landlord.

      • Azuran

        Except for his own, of course.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Brian Morris and Krieger are notorious circumsexuals who get off on watching boys be mutilated. All he does is cherrypick fraudulent anecdotal studies and rejects any counter evidence like the Sorrells touch test and histological studies. He’s an associate of the gilgal society, a club of paedophiles and weirdos. He even released a paper claiming the male gets sexually stimulated via his penis via heat. I just burned my cock. Whoah, I came. The guy is a mentalist.

      • Lawrence Newman

        http://www.circinfo.org/Circumcision_and_sexual_function.html

        Fallacies of Morris, Krieger claims about circumcision and sexual satisfaction exposed

        A paper in a recent issue of Advances in Sexual Medicine shows that the literature survey in which Morris and Krieger claims to show that circumcision makes no difference to sexual experience is deeply flawed and inconsistent with the full range of the evidence. The abstract reads as follows:

        Morris and Krieger (2013) have argued that male circumcision does not impact adversely on sexual sensation, satisfaction, and/or function. In the present paper, it is argued that such a view is untenable. By selectively citing Morris’ own non-peer-reviewed letters and opinion pieces purporting to show flaws in studies reporting evidence of negative effects of circumcision, and by failing adequately to account for replies to these letters by the authors of the original research (and others), Morris and Krieger give an incomplete and misleading account of the available literature. Consequently, Morris and Krieger reach an implausible conclusion that is inconsistent with what is known about the anatomy and functions of the penile foreskin, and the likely effects of its surgical removal.

        Gregory J. Boyle, Does Male Circumcision Adversely Affect Sexual Sensation, Function, or Satisfaction? Critical Comment on Morris and Krieger (2013). Advances in Sexual Medicine, 31 March 2015.

        Brian Morris is an embarrassment. He is not to be taken seriously. He is a sadistic weirdo and probably a homosexual paedophile.

      • Who?

        Other than his own, which is unimpeachable on all topics.

        • Roadstergal

          His mental development is just as arrested at the 14-year-old stage as his sexual development. It’s quite clear from all of his crowing about how he ‘won’ – he changed no minds and made no valid points, but he feels he ‘won’ because he still feels the same way he did at the beginning, and he can always come back and post the last word.

          I’m thinking his mental problems started way before the aggressive penis use that necessitated the operation.

          Actually, given his narrative, I wonder if even his self-reported negative outcome is down to how he treated his penis after the procedure. You need to stop jerking it for a few weeks to let it heal up, after all.

          • Who?

            I’m sure if it wasn’t this it would be something else-and he does get to pound the keyboard instead, so there’s that.

    • Lawrence Newman

      Author: Feldblum. Surprise surprise. Not biased at al then.

    • Lawrence Newman

      “87.5% of men reported more sexual pleasure post-MC, the most common reason being more prolonged intercourse.”

      Glad I caught this. So not an increase in erogenous sensation. An increase in time to ejaculate, confirming that circumcision lowers sexual pleasure.

      • Azuran

        And the fact that they say they are having more pleasure does no matter to you?
        Having pleasure for a longer amount of time means less pleasure to you?
        So….in your mind, the faster you come, the better? Those who complain of having an orgasm too fast and not enjoying sex are actually wrong? I guess they simply have no idea how lucky they are, having all this pleasure.
        If a quick orgasm is all that matter, why does my ‘intact’ boyfriend, when he masturbates, makes himself last at least 1 hour on purpose?

        • Lawrence Newman

          No, they say they last longer. That is not more pleasure if you have none of the nerves. IT’s impossible.

          IT’s not about speed of cumming, it’s about being able to feel pleasure during the act. No foreskin = numbness. This study is bogus. 200 fictional kenyans. ARe you for real?

          There is no evidence circumcised men last longer. It’s an urban myth.

          “If a quick orgasm is all that matter, why does my ‘intact’ boyfriend, when he masturbates, makes himself last at least 1 hour on purpose?”

          EXACTLY!!! This is what I mean. Because he FEELS GREAT PLEASURE WITH HIS FORESKIN. This is a good thing. Circumcised men with no foreskin say muh I last longer, but it’s because they dont’ feel barely anything. In many cases, they’re trying to rationalise what was done to them.

          http://www.circinfo.org/Circumcision_and_sexual_function.html

          This debunks the nonsense. But you won’t listen. You’d rather listen to made up anecdotes of 190 African men.

          • Azuran

            So, an intact man wants his sex to last longer. You claim this is proof that being intact it better.
            A bunch of intact men (who had sex before their circumcision) got circumcised, found out their sex last longer and are happy about it. And you claim this is proof that circumcision is bad?

          • Roadstergal

            For him, ‘circumcision is bad’ is not a conclusion, it’s a postulate.

          • Azuran

            I swear, even if we found out a special kind of circumcision that somehow prevented all illness, with 0 side effect, he’d find a way to still be against it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            But there isn’t a special kind of circumcision that prevents all illness with zero side effects, so it’s a moot point.

          • Azuran

            It’s not a moot point. My point is that you came here with a mind set and that absolutely nothing would make you change it even a little.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because I know with 100% certitude that circumcision is devastating in terns of sensory loss. I’m a rare example of a guy who’s experienced both. NEurology backs me up. You just don’t like the truth.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If FGM allowed women to delay orgasm, does that mean FGM is good?

          • Azuran

            If 87.5% of women claimed they were happy and had more sexual pleasure following some kind of alteration to their genital organs, I wouldn’t go in their face and tell them they are wrong, their their feeling is meaningless and just don’t know what they are talking about.

          • Lawrence Newman

            87.5% of men don’t say they have more pleasure from cutting off their foreskin. 87.5% of about 200 African men, who may be culturally biased or who may not even exist, say they LAST LONGER.

            LEarn to interpret, laddie.

      • guest

        Lawrence.

        You don’t understand this, but an increase in time to ejaculate does not mean lower sexual pleasure. A normally functioning male (mentally & physically), will have days with more sensitivity & days with less sensitivity. Longer lasting sexual intercourse, produces much more intense orgasms.

        You blame your sexual dysfunction, depression, anxiety & suicidal thoughts on your circumcision. Are you sure it doesn’t have at least a little bit to do with previous abuse that you suffered?

        I have a young relative who had foreskin issues through his teen years. It was painful & embarrassing for him. He got tired of it & requested a circumcision @ around 18 years of age. He wishes that he would have had it done @ birth, as the issues that he experienced are prevalent in the family. His years struggling with his foreskin, damaged his social abilities & he became very shy & introverted (before circumcision btw). He has ‘come out of his shell’ with others & the opposite sex over the last few years.

        • Lawrence Newman

          He didn’t have to be circumcised. That’s medical negligence. Chances are, he suffered pain and pain relief makes him think circumcision was wise. It wasn’t. He’s lost his pleasure.

          “You don’t understand this, but an increase in time to ejaculate does not mean lower sexual pleasure. A normally functioning male (mentally & physically), will have days with more sensitivity & days with less sensitivity. Longer lasting sexual intercourse, produces much more intense orgasms.”

          Longer lasting intercourse without erogenous nerves does not produce more intense orgasms. No foreskin = no erogenous nerves = no orgasm. Most circumcised men have weak ejaculations after rubbing scar tissue. But you don’t understand this because you don’t know what the foreskin feels like.

          • guest

            You think that he didn’t try everything other than circumcision (& suffered for years)? Of course he did, & it was embarrassing + painful. Do you think that many men opt for circumcision later in life without exploring every other option??? If you do, you are completely delusional. Your experience is completely anecdotal, there are many who don’t agree with you who were circumcised later in life. Including 2 other very close relatives of mine.

            I met an army captain who had very serious penis/foreskin damage while parachuting, apparently it’s pretty common in the military. He told me that most of the boys that he knows born into army families are getting circ’d. The father’s are making the decision, they are doing out of love, so that the boys never have to experience something like that later in life.

            Many people experience trauma later life BECAUSE of their foreskin.

            I know a veteran who lost both legs AND his genitalia from the evil actions of others, who doesn’t post 3000 disqus posts in a year & a half like you have. You haven’t addressed my comments about your previous abuse, please get help.

          • guest

            You think that he didn’t try everything other than circumcision (& suffered for years)? Of course he did, & it was embarrassing + painful. Do you think that many men opt for circumcision later in life without exploring every other option??? If you do, you are completely delusional. Your experience is completely anecdotal, there are many who don’t agree with you who were circumcised later in life. Including 2 other very close relatives of mine.

            I met an army captain who had very serious penis/foreskin damage while parachuting, apparently it’s pretty common in the military. He told me that most of the boys that he knows born into army families are getting circ’d. The father’s are making the decision, they are doing out of love, so that the boys never have to experience something like that later in life.

            Many people experience trauma later life BECAUSE of their foreskin.

            I know a veteran who lost both legs AND his genitalia from the evil actions of others, who doesn’t post 3000 disqus posts in a year & a half like you have. You haven’t addressed my comments about your previous abuse, please get help.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Do you think that many men opt for circumcision later in life without exploring every other option???”

            Yes, many do, because many arent’ given other options. Many doctors don’t inform them and demand circumcision.

            “I met an army captain who had very serious penis/foreskin damage while parachuting, apparently it’s pretty common in the military. He told me that most of the boys that he knows born into army families are getting circ’d. The father’s are making the decision, they are doing out of love, so that the boys never have to experience something like that later in life.”

            That’s like saying mothers should cut off their daughters’ clitoris in case a dinosaur bites it off. PReposterous.

            “Many people experience trauma later life BECAUSE of their foreskin.”

            Many people experience trauma via having their legs blown off. Shoudl we cut off babies’ legs?

            “I know a veteran who lost both legs AND his genitalia from the evil actions of others, who doesn’t post 3000 disqus posts in a year & a half like you have. You haven’t addressed my comments about your previous abuse, please get help.”

            Maybe because cutting off penises and legs is illegal while circumcision IS LEGAL.

  • Lawrence Newman

    A challenge for the anti-male tossers on this page:

    Provide evidence FGM removes more sexual pleasure, i.e. more erogenous nerves, than MGM.

    IF you can do this, I shall leave you all in peace.

    If you cannot, have the intellectual honesty to admit I am right.

    • Wren

      There are no “erogenous nerves”, so your challenge is invalid.

      Does male circumcision cause ongoing pain, fertility issues and in some cases require a blade to both have sex and deliver a child? If not, they are not equivalent.

      At best, circumcision is equal to the type of FGM in which the prepuce is taken. It is in no way equivalent to infibulation.

      • Lawrence Newman

        “Does male circumcision cause ongoing pain, fertility issues and in some cases require a blade to both have sex and deliver a child? If not, they are not equivalent.

        In many cases, yes, it does cause ongoing pain. Many men suffer painful erections and skin tagging. As for requiring a blade, you’re referring to the worst form of FGM which only makes up an estimated 10% of FGM. 90% does not involve infibulation. This is a deliberate tactic by you–comparing the worst form of FGM with the average form of MGM. At least 90% of FGM causes no complications with childbirth. If it did, FGM cultures would not have booming birthrates.

        “At best, circumcision is equal to the type of FGM in which the prepuce is taken. ”

        Actually, removing the foreskin is far worse than removing the clitoral hood. You’re assuming the foreskin and clitoral hood are exact equivalents with the same level of importance. A woman with no clitoral hood has other structures for stimulation. Possibly the glans clitoris (though the jury is out on whether it is the primary erogenous tissue or the hood is) and the vaginal canal. But a man with no foreskin has the non-erogenous protopathic glans. Theglans penis is not what you think it is. It’s got about as much fine touch sensitivity as the heel of the foot.

        Watch “circumcised at 18” on Youtube. That’s what circumcision does.

        • Wren

          Most circumcised men report no major issues. If it were as terrible as you claim, no man would want his son circumcised, but it is generally the father who makes the choice for an infant son.

          Booming birthrates in an overall population have much more to do with lack of access to reliable birth control than some of the women ending up infertile due to infections.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So your logic is because men generally don’t publicly complain, then circumcision is okay? Well by that logic, FGM is okay because most victims do not complain.

            ” If it were as terrible as you claim, no man would want his son circumcised, but it is generally the father who makes the choice for an infant son.”

            Because they have known no better. IT’s a cycle of abuse. This is what happens in FGM cultures. Women do it to female relations. Don’t you know this? It’s the same phenomenon. You just won’t see it as you’re so Westerncentric. If men in white coats do it in the West, it’s ok. If brown people do it in Africa to women, it’s BARBARIC!!

            “Booming birthrates in an overall population have much more to do with lack of access to reliable birth control than some of the women ending up infertile due to infections.”

            But if it caused infertility at high rates, there wouldn’t be a booming birthrate.

    • Nick Sanders

      Mu.

  • Lawrence Newman

    It’s clear to me that the cunt whose blog this is is an anti-male witch who attracts a legion of fellow anti-male, OMG-the-patriarchy-and-white-privilege-are-out-to-get-us types. When anyone rightly draws attention to something abusive against males like circumcision, they will be told to stop whining and being professional victims. Then they will start whining about folklore like rape culture, white privilege, wage gaps and patriarchy, how we really must ban bossy and how women are oppressed by being told breastfeeding is best.

    You are all mentally ill.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Every time some white guy whines about how hard his life is, it reminds me of this cartoon, specifically the second to last panel:
      https://xkcd.com/1027/
      The only thing standing in the way of your dreams is that you’re the one who is dreaming them, Lawrence.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Only a progressive SJW feminist idiot would turn round to a guy complaining about abuse of male children and make a sarcastic reply about white male privilege. You do realise most victims of male genital mutilation are non-white, right? Worra twat.

        • Azuran

          Except that you are not a guy complaining about abuse of male children. You are a guy who calls women (and a good number of men) ‘cunts’
          The fact that people who don’t even have an opinion or are even against circumcision don’t even agree with you should give you a clue that you are doing something wrong.
          If you want an intelligent discussion, you should offer one yourself first.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I am complaining about the abuse of male children via circumcision. I thought that would be patently obvious by now, but you people seem to have zero interpretation skills.

            I’m the one dealing in hard science. It’s the idiots on here who dislike facts.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I don’t “approve” of male circumcision in the sense that I don’t think it should be routinely performed on every male infant. If men want their foreskins off they can have them taken off at their leisure as adults. But anyone saying that it’s the same as having a female “circumcision” is so dumb you wonder how they breathe independently. Lawrence has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the basic anatomy and physiology involved. I don’t think a serious anti-circ group would welcome his input.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, YOU show a lack of understanding. The claim FGM is “worse than MGM” has no basis in science. It’s a folk theory. IT’s pure gynocentrism. You THINK the glans penis is erogenous and the foreskin is trivial. The complete opposite is the case. Virtually all erogenous nerves are in the foreskin. This is a fact confirmed by histological analysis.

            I challenge you to prove any form of FGM excises more erogenous nerves than MGM.

            I am waiting.

            Cue “but but but you’re just ignorant” without citing any neurological proof. You people just parrot baseless, gynocentric claims uncritically.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Lawrence, babe, there’s no such thing as an ‘Erogenous nerve’. It’s just not a phrase you’re going to find in a textbook of anatomy and physiology. Seriously, if you’re actually against circumcision and want fewer routine circs to occur, you need to rethink how you’re going about it. You’re doing more harm than good.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Fine touch receptors provide a sexual response. Free nerves endings do not. The glans is almost entirely covered with free nerve endings.

            It’s interesting you just completely ignored my challenge to prove your claim FGM is worse than MGM.

          • Wren

            Please find a decent anatomy textbook or just do a quick google search. Compare the photos of circ’d and uncirc’d penis and compare the photos of normal female anatomy and infibulation. Perhaps that would better help you to compare the two?

            Then please look at the resulting complications, including the rate of these complications.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why do you keep talking of infibulation? 90% of FGM is not infibulation. You know FGM has different types. You also haven’t proved FGM is worse in terms of sensory loss. You’re focusing on complications and ignoring sensation. You’re also ignoring the fact more males die from MGM than females die from FGM.

          • Wren

            You’re ignoring the fact that there are different types of male circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            They don’t vary greatly. Most are periah-style. The ridged band is the most erogenous zone and that’s always cut off. Most have no band and no delta. Just look at American porn–they’ve been stripped. Which is why they’re all jacked up on viagra.

          • Azuran

            I’d argue that they are all jacked up on Viagra because actually filming professional porn is not actually that sexually pleasant. It requires men to hold erection for hours. Having sex with a woman you probably don’t know much and might not have any physical/sexual/emotional attraction to. While holding physically straining and not very pleasant sexual position with 20 peoples looking at you and directing you on how to move and position yourself to provide a better view for the camera.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yeah, it’s nothing to do with being left with only protopathic sensation.

    • MaineJen

      Jesus Christ. Are you still here? Go away. You’re boring.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Why are you still replying, anti-male cunt?

        • MaineJen

          Go away. You’re boring.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I know, right. I’m not a black lesbian with a degree in gender studies. BORING!!

          • MaineJen

            You’re boring. Go away.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’m never going away. I speak truth to cunts.

          • Wren

            I guess that’s as close as you’re ever likely to get to them.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Been near loads. I just gave up on them as circumcision destroys sexual pleasure. Why fuck a cunt with a numb dildo? No point.

          • MaineJen

            “Been near loads” Consensually? Somehow I doubt it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Bit rich you acting like you care about consent. You’re sitting there attacking a guy who’s against non-consensual genital mutilation.

          • Wren

            Right there is why I doubt you’ve been near many. Visual and tactile stimulation, plus actually caring about your partner’s pleasure, would be reason enough for most people.

          • MaineJen

            Boring. Predictable. Yawn.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So you know you’re a cunt.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      Well yeah I actually am mentally ill and suffer from PTSD to tell the truth.

      You know what I do about that? I go to therapy so I can be a mentally functional adult.

      Indulge my curiosity if you will. I’m feeling masochistic this morning. What do you do for a living/income? I’m just curious about the demographic that comes parachuting in here and I’m doing an informal data collection.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Snap. I have PTSD, too, from circumcision. But apparently the issue is all in my head (According to you guys) and not a rational reaction to being knife-raped by the state medical care without apology or compensation.

        Therapy is pointless. I’ve been there. Men need practical solutions to their problems. Talking about feelings doesn’t help matters. What I wanted to do was sue but the system is rigged with a statute of limitations so I can’t. And it’s legal anyway so they’d get away with it. anyhow. IF I was a female, I’d be a millionaire now because of what they did to me. Must be the patriarchy.

        • MaineJen

          Maybe physical therapy then. If you truly have no sensation, that is NOT a typical result of circumcision. I don’t know what would cause it, but a neurologist should be able to help. Or a urologist. But you know what won’t help? Calling women you don’t know cunts. That won’t help you.

          • Wren

            That is true. Total lack of sensation is not the norm.

          • Lawrence Newman

            ” that is NOT a typical result of circumcision.”

            No, you THINK it’s not a typical result of circumcision. But it’s an assumption. Most men who’re circumcised were cut at birth and have no point of comparison. The foreskin contains almost all the erogenous nerves. Go on youtube and watch “circumcised at 18”. I wouldn’t be telling you this unless I was 100% sure. I know other men who are circumcised and report the exact same thing. It’s just most men simply aren’t aware what they have is abnormal or are too proud to complain. MEn do not want to admit to being victims, even when they are.

            A urologist I went to see years ago said, “there may be nerve damage but good luck proving it.” That shows the level of intellectual honesty of these quacks. You can’t circumcise without nerve damage as you’re cutting off nerves!

          • Wren

            Most men who have been circumcised are not numb. They know what they feel better than you, and sex is still an enjoyable act for most.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Most FGM victims have awesome sex lives. Prove me wrong.

            See how easy it is to assume crap and spout it on the page?

          • Wren

            But you are denying the experience of many men, and their partners, to make your claim.

          • Lawrence Newman

            WEll you support FGM then because FGM victims don’t see themselves as victims.

          • Sue

            It’s not anatomically possible for circumcision to cause penile numbness – the nerves come from the base to the tip, not the other way around.

          • Wren

            Maybe there was some catastrophic injury at the time?

          • Who?

            There’s way more to this little tale than meets the eye. It’s either a total fabrication or an utter distortion of the truth.

            Seems like his parents reinforced his anxiety about it which would also have been most unhelpful for his recovery and adjustment from whatever-if anything-happened.

          • Sue

            Nah – can’t work that way.

          • Roadstergal

            The paper you yourself posted as Proof Of Your Claims shows it doesn’t cause ED. The paper at the top shows that more men agreed that their adult circumcision was awesome than will agree on anything else you throw at a random group of guys.

            You’re repetitive, dull, and self-absorbed. That’s your problem, not your penis.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The paper you’re referring to is a fraudulent,worthless propaganda exercise allegedly done in AFrica. Not one of these men will be available for comment. Why doyou think it’s always Africans whor’e used as guinea pigs here?

            IT’s scientifically impossible for circumcision to increase sexual pleasure. That’s like saying cutting off your foot makes your foot more ticklish.

          • Wren

            No! It’s like saying removing the covering on a sensitive area makes it more sensitive.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The glans isn’t erogenous. The foreskin contains the erogenous nerves. How can removing thousands of fine touch nerves increase sexual pleasure. I just cut off my leg ….. my leg is now more itchy. Derp

          • Nick Sanders

            just cut off my leg ….. my leg is now more itchy.

            Actually, that’s entirely possible. It’s called phantom limb.

          • Roadstergal

            “My anecdote trumps all! Other men’s reports, the published literature! It’s all lies, lies!”

            And you can’t even see how much you come across as a basement-dwelling semi-delusional keyboard-pounder.

            Good job on making a living of it, though.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because they ARE lies. IT’s a scientific impossibility . The foreskin is proven erogenous tissue How can cutting off pleasure giving nerves increase pleasure? You know that’s bollocks. The paper is American propaganda. Why do they do it in Africa? Why not in Europe?

            The Americans have been releasing fraudulent papers on this for over 100 yrs. They were saying it cured TB and epilepsy not long ago

          • Roadstergal

            Because it’s a matter of life and death to do it in Africa, doofus.

            Again, I have to say you did good, making a living out of raging on the Internet. Most people have to do something productive.

          • Lawrence Newman

            IT’s not though. Circumcision does not lower HIV rate. That’s why the epidemiological data contradicts their claims. IT’s another spurious claim by pro-circers. Just like “it cures TB”. The trials on HIV-circumcision were risible; completely methodologically flawed.

          • Roadstergal

            Hm, what should I believe, Lawrence Newman or the literature? I’m going with the literature.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The bogus literature that you haven’t evaluated. Just believe anything you read . As long as you can now pretend you’re not a sexual cripple.

          • Roadstergal

            If it’s bogus, why did you link it to me when I asked you for support for your position?

          • Lawrence Newman

            You linked it. Idiot.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m talking about the paper _you_ posted yesterday showing that hospital-based circumcision was quite safe and free of long-term negative outcomes.

            I’m really using very small words, here. I don’t think I could go fully monosyllabic for your benefit.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I posted no such thing . Obviously more pro circ propaganda

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, actually, you did. You posted two papers – the first was on therapeutic circumcision for existing conditions, the second was comparing hospital-based to ‘traditional’ circumcision methods.

            How drunk _are_ you?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Nope. I didn’t. You’re high again.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And mine isn’t an anecdote. I’ve provided neurological evidence. You’ve provided some bogus “study” asking fictional black men in Kenya about sensation, and these fictional black men are saying they have magic penises that increase sensation as the have nerves cut off.

          • Roadstergal

            You’ve said “erogenous nerves! Histology!” like they’re magic words. The only actual population study you provided showed that circ is quite safe and causes no ED when done in a hospital setting. You’re quite bad at biology, even for only having an undergrad degree.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I’ve shown you the studies. If I was wrong, you’d be able to show histological evidence to the contrary . NEurology trumps anecdotes.

          • Roadstergal

            Studies trump your baseless ranting. You’ve 100% failed to convince a single fence-sitter. You’ve turned off posters who were anti-circ to start with.

            You’re as bad at debate as you are at biology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I’ve wrecked all of you. Not one person here has shown one piece of hard science contradicting my claims. Not one piece of neurology. Oh wait, you have a study of 200 made up Kenyan men who say they have magic penises that increase in sensation the more tissue is cut off. lol

          • Roadstergal

            Whose mind have you changed, my good man? What difference have you made here, with all of your rants? You’ve convinced nobody, you’ve merely mentally masturbated on the page. Which I suppose is the only kind you allow yourself, now.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Nobody could convince you, because you are a sexual cripple in denial.

          • Sue

            Yep – neurology trumps Lawrie’s anecdotes, quite soundly. As does anatomy. ANd physiology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Neurology + experience of men circumcised in post pubescence trumps your feelings.

          • Nick Sanders

            Except you dismiss all the experiences you disagree with as imaginary. Or somehow mistaken about their own penises.

          • Wren

            Hmmm….maybe your study is the bogus one.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You can’t lie about neurology. IT’s there under the microscope. You CAN lie about fictional African men saying they have magic penises.s

          • Wren

            The anatomy is there under the microscope, not the physiology and certainly not the effect on the brain.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well by that logic, we need to legalise FGM quickly. Because you think FGM hasn’t been proven to be damaging.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          It’s not useless, you just choose to do nothing about it.

          If all you got out of therapy was sharing feelings you had the wrong mind of therapist or you weren’t doing the work.

          I’ll give you benefit of the doubt, against my better judgement, and say maybe your therapist wasn’t a good fit.

          Was your therapist trained in cognitive behavior therapy? CBT has been found to be extremely beneficial in PTSD cases. It’s not just talking about feelings, its examining unhealthy coping mechanisms and retraining the brain to react more benignly to the PTSD triggers. And it takes a lot of work. Not to forget what was done to you or trivialize it, just to find a way to continue through life without that experience ruling you.

          Still curious what you do for a living though.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I don’t work due to what it did to me. It messed me up badly. I know quite a few guys here in the UK who’re in the exact same position as me. It’s society’s dirty little secret. When men complain about having no sensation, they are mocked. Even my therapist tried to trivialise it and made dick jokes, and that was after acknowledging that circumcision is barbaric.

            I’ve had my story published in a book called Unspeakable Mutilations. It’s on amazon. Another 49 guys speak about how it ruined their lives. But men will not get listened to on this. When they have no pride and are just honest about this in public, they are shamed and ridiculed. But if I was a woman suffering due to FGM, oh I’d have media appearances and misery memoirs written about me. It’s unbelievable to think feminists actually think men have it better in Western society. Women have way more rights and privileges.

          • Wren

            You do not make an argument in a convincing manner. You deny the experiences of others, make claims that do not match the academic research and insist on bringing your misogynist views into it.

            It is definitely possible that you are part of the minority of men who do have significant complications after circumcision. It is your claim that ALL circumcised men have these issues that is the problem with your basic argument, exacerbated by the method of delivery, choice of “evidence” and bonus misogyny.

            An anecdote that might help: Jane has a hysterectomy and in the process develops neuropathic pain in one foot. This pain continues for at least 10 years after the surgery and requires major treatment to control. The pain, and the damage to the nerve causing it, is definitely the result of the hysterectomy, as agreed by all doctors involved including the original surgeon. Does hysterectomy cause this type of damage? Yes. Is it a rare complication? Yes. Should Jane insist all women who have had hysterectomies have this complication? No, because they do not.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Actually, my experience does support the literature. The hard science, i.e. neurology. You are referring to fraudulent American pro circ propaganda that’s effectively made up anecdotes. They make a profit from it, dummy.

          • Who?

            I’m put in mind of Aunt Ada at Cold Comfort Farm-three meals a day, calling the shots, ruling the roost, everyone at your beck and call, all because you saw something nasty in the woodshed.

            Grow up.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Ah, I see. So I need to grow up but feminists are totally fine moaning about white privilege and rape culture that doesn’t exist…….. cuckoo

          • Sue

            “I don’t work due to what it did to me.”

            Wow – he really DOES make money from being a Professional Victim.

          • Lawrence Newman

            And you make money from promoting child abuse. I can live with myself, Sue. Can you?

          • Sue

            I make money helping sick and injured people, including children. It’s very rewarding, actually.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I wasn’t aware that mutilating baby genitals was curing a sickness.

          • Roadstergal

            He’s a Professional Victim.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I saw a clinical psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. I’ve been referred to a health psychologist. They are all professional head nodders. Jobs for the boys (and girls). Complete fluff. Women tend to respond to talking at great length but men tend to want practical solutions. My closure would be successfully suing for what was done to me , but it can’t happen. There’s also all the secondary victimisation as a circumcision victim because it’s legal and people trivialise it and even promote it. Imagine a rape victim living in a society that mocked her for being traumatised and allowed rape to be legal.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            So you didn’t have the right kind of therapy because CBT is work.

            It’s taking a good look at your behaviors and filling out work sheets that make you face if your behvaior is rational or not. It’s assignments and sometimes a physical excersises if the issue relates to something that is physical. Tactile sensations that bring back to trauma, like shag carpet or cement, that you work towards not having an episode over.

            But you have to go in without wanting to make excuses and it’s not a quick fix. The therapist is there to guide you not to go too fast so that you traumatize yourself again and lose progress. They’re there to analyse your responses to see if what you’re doing is working, doing more harm, or doing nothing at all.

            If that wasn’t offered I don’t think the therapists were equipped to give you what you needed.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The problem is, I’m dealing with a physical disability caused by the very establishment these people work for–the NHS. I can’t get an apology or confirmation what they did was wrong as they all band together and won’t raise their heads above the parapet. Even doctors who’re opposed to circumcision won’t come out publicly.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            And veterans with PTSD will never get their foot, their arm, or their eyes back. They’re never going to get an apology from the IED maker that caused that either. My husband’s old roommate can’t hold the officers that sent him in to a building to kill people who may or may not have been armed insurgents that still haunts him to this day.

            But they still go to therapy and try to make a life. They don’t want to make excuses because they know they don’t help.

            Even if you were able to sue the doctors and win, what does that get you? It won’t be publicized or if it is it will be forgotten in the next media sensation. The only place I still hear about the Chase Case are on intactivists sites. Everyone else goes “Who?”

            It won’t give you your foreskin back. You may get money but money isn’t going to bring your foreskin back either.

            So if all that did happen, then what do you do with your life?

          • Lawrence Newman

            They made the decision to go into pointless was to be used as expendable assets. I didn’t make any choice.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            You’re deflecting and didn’t answer my question. How does sueing them fix your problem?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because it gives me closure. Them acknowledging they were wrong. The same way rape victims like to see their attackers sent down.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            And then what? Something tells me that won’t give you the closure you claim it will and you’ll go back to squalling like a two year old who got his binkie taken away.

            Rape victims, the ones I know, move on with life. They even get married, some have kids, and almost all are gainfully employed.

            You’ve ridden your pity train long enough. And I would say that to almost anyone who harped on something like this for 15+ years. In fact I have and it was to one of my own family members.

            Mourns the losses, and you are forever changed, yes, but for hell’s sake get a grip on reality, not your dick, and do something. Get a hobby or something. Water color is a great one. You’re going to angry yourself into a stroke or something at this rate.

          • Roadstergal

            “You’ve ridden your pity train long enough”

            Oh lordy no. He still makes money off of it! He’ll ride it until it runs out of track, and he has to find something else to do. Perhaps something productive, like mopping up at the local Starbuck’s?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Rape is nowhere near as damaging as no sexual pleasure for life due to non-consensual mutilation. Let’s get real hear. FGM is worse than rape. MGM is worse than rape.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Yeah, I’m just going to keep going with you think that you’re the most damaged and men are victims of the matriarchy and all these mythical unicorn orgasms that you supposedly had as a teenager that had nothing to do with new, shiny feelings and sensations that come with adolescence.

            I tried. Continue lubng your dick with your professional victim tears.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Oh right, but people who say we live in a patriarchy are right i guess.

          • Nick Sanders

            . Women tend to respond to talking at great length but men tend to want practical solutions.

            Such nice, pat gender bullshit.

          • Roadstergal

            And quite inaccurate. I’m definitely a solution-oriented person who would rather get to the ‘do this’ part than talk and talk…

            (And would rather fall asleep after good sex than cuddle and talk about Feelings.)

          • Wren

            Good sex is my favourite way to deal with difficulty falling asleep.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s true. Unfortunately you follow the anti-scientific religion of egalitarianism, in which both sexes are sold as being identical.

          • Nick Sanders

            The horror of treating people as individuals rather than stereotypes. Oh no!

          • Lawrence Newman

            So you think the field of statistics is anti-scientific? Yes or no.

          • Nick Sanders

            I think your understanding of pretty much every aspect of human anatomy, physiology, psychology, and social interaction varies from suspect at best to so wrong it would be funny if it wasn’t depressing.

          • Mishimoo

            It’s nice to know that I’m actually a man and must be imagining my gender.

          • Sue

            Can’t you just imagine Lawrie at the psychologist?

            Psy: “We’ll need to do a lot of work on what got you here and why you’re hanging on to the victim role.”

            Lawrie: “I didn;’t come here to get some #!!@@ man-hater to ##$$%@@ tell me how I should think, you %%## witch. If you can’t get me compensation, then $$## you and your &&%%%## petty “psychology”. AND, I”M IN A BOOK, you $$##@. Are you? No? Then your’re just a know-nothing **^%%#.”

          • Lawrence Newman

            Can you imagine Sue in her public service role.

            Parent: But why should I circumcise my boy?

            Sue: Because he’s a whining scummy white male and needs to man up and get circumcised. He’ll just rape if he can feel sexual pleasure.

          • Sue

            Nope – my public service role involves helping sick and injured people. REAL illnesses and injuries.

          • Lawrence Newman

            How is a foreskin an injury?

          • yugaya

            I’m sure nodding is the only adequate response when he starts explaining in detail how he was “knife-raped by the state medical care”.

        • demodocus

          Funny; Dad’s mind is in a lot better place after he went to therapy for his depression.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Does he have a numb dildo for a penis?

          • demodocus

            Funnily enough, I never asked. Do you ask your mom is she enjoys sex?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Bit like none of the people on here claiming all circumcised men are okay never asked any circumcised men if they ere okay

          • Nick Sanders

            Except for me, and the husbands, boyfriends, etc. of these fine ladies.

          • demodocus

            well I did ask my spouse and he’s quite content with his penis even without a foreskin. Judging by his reactions, he hasn’t lost much sensation. I’m sorry you feel broken and that you’re sexually frustrated, but anecdotally, all of the 3 guys who I know to be circumcised find sex thoroughly enjoyable. (College conversations can be quite odd.)

          • Lawrence Newman

            How does he know if he never had a foreskin? This is a common reaction. Most men will not admit to being victims, even though they are. If your spouse was female, had her vulva cut off at birth and said, I’m content, would you just accept FGM wasn’t highly damaging?

            All 3 guys you’re talking about were circumcised at birth and know no better.

          • demodocus

            One got circumcised when he married a Jewish girl. As for my boyo, I’m just going by what he tells me, but thanks for your condescension and the implication that he doesn’t know whether sex is fun or blah.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So he did it to please a cultist. What an idiot. He’ll regret that bigtime, even if he doesn’t admit it.

          • demodocus

            Millennia old religions are not cults.

          • Lawrence Newman

            All religions are cults. The only different between a cult and a religion is subscriber base. In principle, they are both the same. Just like MGM is the same as FGM.

          • demodocus

            And he was depressed because his mother was a broom flying nutter who abused the hell out of him. Whether he’s circumcised or not is pretty irrelevant compared to that.

          • Roadstergal

            You’re missing a very critical datum, here. For Lawrence Newman, circumcision is the worst abuse a parent can inflict. Worse than beatings, worse than rape, comparable to a beheading. (Distilling rather a lot of below-typed derp.)

          • demodocus

            apparently.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            So I guess that means that my dad should be totally happy with everything because he’s an intact man.

            Despite being repeatedly beaten with a belt by his dad and it only stopped when his older sister physically put herself between their dad and him and yelled at their dad to never lay a hand on him again. So he just resorted to screaming at my dad whenever he wasn’t the picture perfect good ol days son. But he’s intact so who cares if he was terrified of his dad nearly until the day the man died!

            Or that he couldn’t even hide from his parent’s marital problems because after screaming at each other loud enough for all three floors of the house to hear, his mom would come get in bed with him instead of her own. Four other siblings available but it was always him. I haven’t been brave enough to go digging in that garden of what the fuckery.

            But cicumcision is the worst thing a parent can do their son. Yup.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I was abused as a kid. Circumcision is way worse.

    • Sue

      Since Amy’s been called all manner of derogatory epithets in the past, for speaking out against radical-NCB, and is more frequently accused of being anti-woman, I guess this accusation means that she must be perfectly balanced.

  • MaineJen

    • Who?

      I know right?

      • Nick Sanders

        Are either of you having problems with Disqus? I think it’s starting to buckle under all the activity.

        • MaineJen

          I thought it was just my tablet being slow…

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m on a desktop, but having to constantly refresh the page, plus check other articles to look at my profile.

        • Who?

          It’s still quicker than our parachuters’ intellects, so I’m all good for now.

        • Roadstergal

          Yep. BTW, if y’all want to talk games. I can do Facebook – although I’m old and haven’t done it in a while. I did order DA to see how I like it.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            We totally should.

            I think I’ve actually actually seen Nick on one of the anti-anti-vaxxer sites. Things AntiVaxxers Say I think.

          • Roadstergal

            Ant-vax is what brought me here. I comment sometimes on the Skeptic OB Facebook page, with an avatar of me in my helmet.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve been on TAVS a little, but my main provax hangout is Vaccination Information Awareness. This disqus account is connected directly to my FB account, so both of you can hit me up.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m not sure how to get from the Disqus page to the FB account?

          • Nick Sanders

            Hmm, I tried earlier, and it seems harder than I thought. I know yugaya found me on FB somehow. But here’s a link to my page:

            https://www.facebook.com/nick.sanders.372661

    • Karen in SC

      I need a teal deer version. This jack-off (see what I did there) is claiming nerve damage so bad he can’t climax nor enjoy any sex? Has he explored surgical repair with a urologist – there may be a solution. Definitely a rare thing, as millions of men enjoy orgasms regularly, at least enough of them to support the birth rate.

      • Roadstergal

        My own pet theory, after all of his posts – he had a tight foreskin as a young teen, his foreskin-oriented masturbation technique exacerbated the issue to the point where circumcision was recommended, and then he couldn’t keep his hands off of it during the healing period and caused himself some excess damage. Now, instead of dealing with it like an adult, he gets his validation through the MRA community, and has found a nice niche (and a decent enough living to have a computer and an internet connection) in being a Professional Victim. It’d definitely be difficult to give that up for a real job as a normal Joe.

        It’s certainly interesting to hear him use in-group language – his MRA/intactivist group uses certain words to mean specific things within the in-group, meanings they don’t have elsewhere. Like a religious cult.

        • Karen in SC

          I’m not a doctor but I thought the main nerve for erection was internal near the prostate gland. He might try other “hot spots” – just inside the ear, nipples…. don’t ask me how I know 😉

          • Who?

            Nipples have nothing to do with sexual arousal, in the ‘Pillow Book According to Lawrie’.

            It’s a dull read, but mercifully short.

          • Roadstergal

            It sounds like he still gets erections, but they’re missing that je ne sais quois. We gave him all sorts of suggestions of things to try, but he’s got quite a Victim Racket going that he couldn’t keep (ahem) up if he countenanced any erotic zone on the male body aside from the foreskin.

          • Who?

            Well it seems it pays the bills, so that has to be fairly reinforcing.

            I was feeling sorry for him yesterday, but now I’ve worked out he does this for a living, that’s all over.

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, I’m starting to get the feeling that this was all about getting a link to his Amazon self-published book out there.

          • Who?

            I’m sure the book will be as limp and useless as its topic.

          • Roadstergal

            You could program it in BASIC.

            10 IF foreskin=yes THEN insert into vaginal canal ELSE whinge

            20 GOTO 10

          • Who?

            Even I get that….

          • Nick Sanders

            He has a book? Huh, I missed that.

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, it’s… somewhere in that mess below. I’m not going to go digging for it. The digital era allows anything to be self-published, from velociraptor erotic fiction to Lawrence’s Mein Penis.

  • Lawrence Newman

    Arguing with the morons on this page is like arguing with a man who’s been blind for life over what colour a carrot is.

    • Who?

      Byee!

      Do stick the flounce.

      • Lawrence Newman

        Says he wants no unnecessary suffering. Defends circumcision.

        Mind blown.

        • Who?

          Flounce not stuck.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Still have no arguments?

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        They never stick the flounce. Never a perfect 10 in the flounce olympics.

    • Roadstergal

      I lost hope when I couldn’t convince you that zero is a very small number.

    • Dr Kitty

      You were circumcised at 14, yet apparently knew what “sex is meant to feel like”.
      Few 14 year olds are having great sex in consenting relationships with age appropriate partners. I hope, for your sake, that you were one of them.

      • Ano

        ignorant fuck, 14 yo masturbate

        • Lawrence Newman

          But but but stimulating erogenous tissue with your hand instead of a vagina is “different”. Apparently if I have sex with no erogenous tissue, I’ll suddenly acquire erogenous sensations. These people are seriously moronic.

      • Lawrence Newman

        It’s called masturbation. IT feels the same as sex. You’re just manipulating tissue with your hand instead of a vagina. Learn to reason.

        • Roadstergal

          The same as sex? Oh, Lawrence, Lawrence, you really are confused, aren’t you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Stimulating erogenous tissue is stimulating erogenous tissue, whether it’s done with a hand or other genitals. Why are you such a moron?

          • Wren

            If it were all the same, why on earth would prostitution be a thing? I’m not knocking masturbation at all, but it is not the same.

          • Mishimoo

            The only way that it could maybe be similar (and it’s a stretch) is if one proceeds to use their partner’s body as a masturbation aid instead of having sex for mutual enjoyment.

          • Wren

            Even in that case, why would one spend the money and risk disease when a fleshlight is cheap and reusable?

          • Mishimoo

            Exactly!
            Though, I imagine the answer is probably more misogyny and ignorance.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because people want company and visual stimulation, to be able to touch body parts. The erogenous nerves are still being stimulated in the same way.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          …you are joking, right? I have never know any sexually active person, cut or uncut male included, that says masterbation is anything like sex. I mean I do have problems interpreting sarcasm sometimes so I’m going to assume I’m just reading the tone wrong. Yeah, that’s it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            In terms of stimulation, it’s the same. You’re getting more psychological stimulation from sex, but rolling the foreskin back and forth is the same.

          • Wren

            Oh my. IF you truly believe that, it explains a lot.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Oh honey, no. Just…no.

            If you’ve never had sex then your commenting on it is the same as what you’re telling us not to do which is comment on the foreskin as women. Neither of us appear to have first hand experience.

            And I’m not virgin shaming or saying you need to get laid or some other classic adolescent insult. I’m just saying we’re comparing apples and oranges here. Or maybe peaches and bananas, I don’t know.

          • Nick Sanders

            That needs a rimshot at the end.

            Either kind! http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true

          • Lawrence Newman

            Nothing you said made any sense.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Nothing you say makes any sense either. What exactly do you even do in your normal, offline life? Peaches being slang for a woman’s gentials isn’t exactly new on either side of the Atlantic so I can only conclude you don’t get out much.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Everything I’ve said has been factual. It sounds mad to you due to social conditioning by pro-circ society.

      • Lawrence Newman

        It’s funny how you are more outraged by the possibility of a 14 yr old having sex with an older person than you are at babies being strapped down and genitally mutilated. Idiot.

    • Roadstergal

      I really think you could benefit from two things – a therapist, to help you get over all of these lingering issues from having an embarrassing condition at 14, and secondly (and very much afterwards), experimentation with anal stimulation (small plugs, fingers) or even sounding, to stimulate all of these poor, neglected nerve complexes that can make sex mind-blowingly good.

      Given your foreskin fetish and issues with female sexuality, finding an uncut guy to help you with the anal stimulation would definitely be something to consider. Some folk just don’t get on sexually with women.

      • Lawrence Newman

        The anus is not a sex organ.

        • Roadstergal

          Oh, Lawrence. I’m starting to get the picture – you were raised in a conservative household that drew a firm line between ‘acceptable,’ penis-in-vagina sex, and unacceptable, perverted sex. No wonder you’re so confused about sexual response and hung up on unimportant details! If you could get yourself drunk enough to let a guy give you a proper blow job with a well-lubed finger against your prostate, you could have a properly good orgasm and let go of these knots you’ve twisted yourself into.

          (A woman could do that, too, but I really think that you in particular and women in general are better off if you don’t get involved with women sexually.)

          • Lawrence Newman

            Whines about me being conservative for stating a biological fact. Supports an ancient conservative religious act of mutilation to sexually suppress. I’m an atheist rationalist.

            The prostate is not the anus. Learn to biology.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s readily stimulated through the anus. You can try it yourself, you don’t have to tell anyone. Take a good shower, lie back on the bed, use a lot of lubricant – a lot – and just play. Start off small and slow. Not everyone likes it, but a surprising number do.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The prostate has no erogenous nerves. What you’re referring to is a way of releasing semen from the prostate with what’s effectively a cheat code for the human body. The biological fact remains the anus is not erogenous, and neither is the prostate.

            Of course, you can certainly provide me with peer-reviewed histological analyses that disprove what I’m saying to you.

            I’ll wait by the coffee percolator while the tumbleweeds roll by.

          • Roadstergal

            Like I said, you don’t have to tell anyone. I certainly wouldn’t tell your intactivist friends – they’re an odd bunch. Just try a few of those things your parents and peer group told you were ‘dirty.’ You’ll forget all about histology. Give yourself permission to enjoy life.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You do realise that without nerves, something can’t be erogenous right? You’re referring to a shortcut to release of semen from a gland. That doesn’t make the prostate erogenous; it just means it’s possible to squeeze a gland to release semen. Quit with the unscientific, baseless LGBT propaganda.

            I didn’t have permission to enjoy life as I was mutilated without my consent. No foreskin = no erogenous sensation. IF I was wrong, you would have provided me with neurological evidence by now. This is why I can win any circumcision debate with any doctor from the AAP, CDC or WHO. They are all ignorant frauds.

          • Roadstergal

            Nobody can free you from your mental prison but yourself. Certainly your intactivist MRA friends won’t. So you have to decide.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s interesting how you throw in red herrings in every response. IT’s almost like you have no argument.

          • Roadstergal

            There’s no argument here. We’ve already heard your nonsense, and nobody gets buried that deeply inside of it without having some profound mental trauma in the past. It’ll be a lot more fun to live if you don’t cling to this so desperately. Consider it. Like I I said, you don’t have to tell anyone. You don’t have to pretend you ‘lost’.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You’ve just called all the anti-FGM activists who successfully got FGM banned mentally traumatised. CAn you see this, or are you really a genuine idiot?

          • Wren

            Again, FGM is a totally different procedure with totally different long term effects.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, it is the same procedure. You’ve just been brainwashed by the folk theory FGM is worse. The claim FGM is worse in terms of sensory loss has no basis in science, hence why you can’t provide one neurological study proving it’s worse. In actual fact, because the foreskin contains all the erogenous nerves, cutting it off is way worse in terms of sensory loss than most forms of FGM.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “We’ve already heard your nonsense”

            You think the field of histology is nonsense?

            Are you a creationist?

          • Roadstergal

            Listen to yourself, Lawrence. You say creationist, but below, you say babies are born perfect. You say nothing is vestigial – that’s the creationist argument. You don’t have to argue. It’s anti-creationist to accept that bodies are imperfect and deal with them as they come.

            Interesting angle, though. Did your parents not accept you as ‘perfect,’ in your mind? You got really angry about that, below.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You’ve made the claim the foreskin is vestigial. I’m waiting on evidence. Will you provide it? If you can’t in your next comment, then you lose the debate. Obviously you lost it long ago, but you get my point. Don’t tell me I don’t give you chance after chance.

            You’re one of those people who thinks the appendix is vestigial, aren’t you? lol

          • Roadstergal

            We all did, many times. Now, it’s just interesting to observe a man who claims an ED effect that is absent from the very papers he chose to support it, who has an understanding of histology commensurate with an undergraduate biology degree that he has elevated to the status of a magic talisman to explain everything he believes, and who thinks that hundreds of millions of happy, sexually fulfilled men are indistinguishable from Louis XVI.

            If you want to change your life, you can. If you don’t, that’s fine, there’s plenty of bitter MRAs on the Internet, and you likely find their echo chambers reassuring and soothing. I do like the idea that something about them doesn’t quite fulfill you, and you’re willing to look outside of them, but you have to do a little more. You have to take the next step.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Where is this evidence then? Show it.

          • Roadstergal

            We’ve shown it up and down this thread. That very paper _you_ presented to us about circumcision in Africa showed that when done cleanly in a hospital, it caused few side effects, all minor and transient, and no ED.

            I’m starting to revise my feeling that you’re a seeker… now I’m thinking you’re just a victim of lastworditis, which is far more boring. At least I’m getting some good recs on PC games.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That wasn’t rproof. It was a pro-circumcision study done by the people pushing circumcision in Africa. The problem is, you believe these people who cut for profit , using an ancient religious rite and selling it as medicine.

          • Roadstergal

            It was the only reference you could come up with – and it’s still not ideal circumcision (complications are lowest when done neonatally, and these were post-sexually-mature men). Your own problems, your teenage embarrassment, your current unhappiness, would have been avoided by neonatal circumcision. Not your weird attitudes around sex, though. Those are on you.

            Since the literature doesn’t support your contention, I’m now curious – how many circumcised men did you try to have sex with before coming to the conclusion that it destroyed their ability to have an erection?

          • Lawrence Newman

            So FGM victims who were mutilated as teenagers wouldn’t be unhappy if they were mutilated as babies?

            A bit like women who’re raped wouldn’t be upset if they’d just been raped as babies.

            Pro-circ logic.

          • Roadstergal

            Answer my question, Lawrence – after your comments above about you masturbating men with hoodie penises, I’m now actually starting to get interested in this conversation again! Especially since your results are so different to mine.

          • Lawrence Newman

            When did I say I masturbated other men? Always have to resort to insults when you lose the argument.

          • Roadstergal

            So you have no direct experience? You’ve relied on the self-reports of people? Come on, Lawrence, that’s very bad science. They could be lying, they could be confused, they could be mis-remembering. You know this, you’ve got a biology degree and everything – reports are no substitute for direct observation.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I base my claims on histological studies, not anecdotes. You can’t argue with the hard science. IT’s been proven the foreskin contains virtually all the fine -touch nerves. There’s no need for anecdotes.

          • Wren

            Has it actually been proven that these nerves, in this density, are required for erogenous sensation?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, because we know that free nerves aren’t erogenous. It’s a very logical deduction that without the nerves we know to be erogenous, fine touch, there will be no erogenous sensation. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Probably because you’ve circumcised your kids or know people who have, you find this too hard to accept.

          • Wren

            Logical deduction? Not necessarily. You must first show that those nerves are actually responsible for 100% of sensation people find erogenous.

            Interesting claim that I’ve circ’d my kids, given I’ve already stated in this thread that I live in the UK and am an atheist.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Ah, so you’re just a stubborn bastard. I see. Atheist …. defends ancient religious act of sexual suppression. Fuck me, is this the progressive tolerance on display again?

            We know fine-touch receptors are erogenous and free nerves aren’t. Free-nerves only detect pain, pressure and temperature. Fine-touch provide the tickly pleasurable sensations.

          • Wren

            There are so many bigger issues out there.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Should we stop opposing rape because murder happens?

          • Roadstergal

            Histology is not the proper tool for studying erectile dysfunction, which is what we all started with. Studies show very clearly that circumcised populations do not have greater incidence of ED than hoodie populations, with confounders controlled for.

            BTW, getting off other men is not an insult. It’s a skill and a pleasure.

          • Lawrence Newman

            IT should be very obvious that without erogenous nerves, erections are going to be difficult.

          • Wren

            Then why isn’t the lack of strong involuntary erections in circumcised teens an indicator that erogenous sensation remains after circumcision?

          • Lawrence Newman

            How do you know that circumcised teens don’t have erectile dysfunction? Remember, ED doesn’t just mean impotence. It also means a lack of full, strong erections, e.g. getting semi-erections and struggling to maintain erections. You cannot alter form without altering function.

          • Wren

            And the large number of circ’d men who regularly attain full, strong erections?

            And what causes ED in uncirc’d men? Obviously whatever that is cannot affect circ’d men, right?

            I gave birth. It altered the form of my vagina and my cervix. Both still work just fine. Maybe rethink that one.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “And the large number of circ’d men who regularly attain full, strong erections?

            Men with less severe circumcisions.

            “And what causes ED in uncirc’d men? Obviously whatever that is cannot affect circ’d men, right?

            It’s actually very rare. Usually health issues that affect blood flow, poor diet, overweight, things like that. Most ED is due to circumcision.

          • Wren

            Funny how ED seems to be an issue here in the UK where circs are rare outside of specific religious communities.

            I guess the majority of men who have been with my group of friends all somehow got these less severe circumcisions. Since these still allow strong erections and sexual pleasure, they must be acceptable, right?

          • Lawrence Newman

            How do you know know they get strong erections? Because they don’t talk about anything publicly?

          • Wren

            This might be news to you, but women often discuss these things.

          • Lawrence Newman

            That’ll be the women …. who dont’ own the penis.

          • Wren

            That’ll be the women, who really have no need for the penis (as opposed to the man it is attached to) except when full, strong erections are possible.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “I gave birth. It altered the form of my vagina and my cervix. Both still work just fine. Maybe rethink that one.

            No tissue was removed. It still functions the same.

          • Wren

            How much tissue must be removed to alter function then?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well removing an entire structure like the foreskin will alter function. A tiny tiny snip in the tip won’t have any significant effect. But removing it all removes the erogenous tissue and the gliding mechanism. Put it another way : IF you remove a wheel from a car, you have total dysfunction because the car will not be able to be driven, at least not for long. But you could remove one of the bolts from the wheel and you’d still get to your destination. Do you see what I’m saying?

          • Wren

            Then a small snip form of circumcision would be fine in your book, right?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well, no, as cutting infants for no reason is wrong. But if it was a case of tight foreskin that wasn’t able to be remedied by less invasive means, a tiny snip in the tip would be justified. But that’s not circumcision, that’s a therapeutic incision. It isn’t destroying the ridged band.

          • Roadstergal

            And that a procedure that has no effect on the ability of men to achieve voluntary or involuntary erections is a procedure that has not affected erogenous nerves. I’m glad we agree!

          • Lawrence Newman

            But it does have an effect.

          • Roadstergal

            When I asked for a citation to that effect, you gave me a paper showing that ED is not a complication of circumcision. Glad to see we agree!

          • Lawrence Newman

            The truth is, the establishment won’t cover it. The yearn too much from viagra sales , circumcision procedures and face creams made from foreskin fibroblasts.

          • Nick Sanders

            I wish there was a private chat function on Disqus, because I would love to gab with you and DelphiniumFalcon about video games for ages without cluttering up Dr. Tuteur’s space.

          • Nick Sanders

            What’s this about Louis XVI?

          • Roadstergal

            His comment about circumcision being just like beheading.

          • Nick Sanders

            Ahh, I see.

          • Nick Sanders

            There was no claim the foreskin is vestigial. There was a hypothesis that it might be.

          • Lawrence Newman

            A hypothesis with no justification. It was no different from saying the scrotum is vestigial or the lips are vestigial. You only come up with these absurd theories because society has conditioned you to see the foreskin as somehow nasty. Brainwashed.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            There’s that Histology word again.

          • Who?

            And ‘logic’. Another sadly misunderstood word if the poster’s use of it is anything to go by.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because you have been thoroughly rebutted, you use memes. You have no arguments.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Naw, I just don’t feel like apply the definition of insanity by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So I had to find other ways to amuse myself. I’m a visual person. Memes make me laugh. So I share the wealth.

            Also you really don’t seem to grasp that there is no such thing as a specific eroginious nerve type. The same nerves you tout as being so eroginously intense are the same nerves that allow our finger tips to recognize minute differences in texture and pressure.

            I’m still waiting for if Braille readers are orgasmic all day long and just not telling us or if a forskinned penis can read Braille or not. Because using your logic, everyone and their dog would want to learn to read Braille since the exact same nerve type that innervates the foreskin are in the finger tips.

            Now finger tips can be very erotic in the right mood and setting, don’t get me wrong. Huh…Maybe trashy romance novels are just that much better in Braille.

            Or, once again in this thread, is the foreskin just that wonderfully special that it completely changes the function because you say so?

          • Roadstergal

            I forgot to mention – your braille-reading hoodie penis is now going in the crack fic.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh great, now I’m imagining a penis wearing a miniature grey sweater.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Yes! This will be glorious!

          • Nick Sanders

            I wonder if you can get onto Weeping Cock when you are deliberately being stupid about sex to mock people being genuinely stupid about sex.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Also you really don’t seem to grasp that there is no such thing as a specific eroginious nerve type.”

            Yes, there is. Free nerves are protopathic, i.e. sense pressure, pain and temperature. Fine touch nerves are erogenous. This is a fact.

            “The same nerves you tout as being so eroginously intense are the same nerves that allow our finger tips to recognize minute differences in texture and pressure.”

            Correct. The difference is the number in the foreskin is many many many times more. It is densely innervated, unlike the fingertips. Also, these nerves have different neural pathways. The same erogenous nerves that are in the most pleasurable parts of women’s vulvas are also in the fingertips. However, meissner’s corpuscles are not the only encapsulated genital corpuscle in the foreskin–there are many others, including ones adapted to stretch.

          • Wren

            Please explain to me what the most pleasurable parts of my vulva are. I don’t seem to be able to particularly identify them despite having a vulva for many decades.

          • Roadstergal

            Sorry, your most pleasurable erogenous zones are in the vulva. Who are you going to believe, Lawrence or your own lying, brainwashed experience?

          • Wren

            I lie, my husband lies, most circumcised men lie and I’m pretty sure a lot more commenters on this thread have lied in claiming decent sex including a circumcised penis. Only Lawrence knows the truth.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I don’t know, because I’m not a man. I haven’t come across any neurological evidence in the literature the glans clitoris is the primary erogenous tissue or is even significantly erogenous. That’s what I’m saying. I can only theorise based on what I know about the penis. The glans penis is not significantly erogenous but protopathic. We know this. Either the clitoris develops differently or the clitoris is also non-erogenous. I have spoken to female intactivists who are more open-minded than you. They said that they realised that I am on to something because when they masturbate they realise that the truly pleasurable sensations come from the hood (foreskin).

          • Wren

            Direct stimulation of the clitoris can be too intense, leading some women to prefer stimulation without removing the clitoral hood. Personally, I can’t even figure out how I could stimulate the hood without the clitoris. It’s far smaller than the male foreskin.

          • Valerie

            No. Neuroscientist here. You are using a meaning for “erogenous” that does not exist in biology. There are different classes of sensory neurons and nerve endings, based on size, morphology, location in skin, what genes they express, etc, but it is false to say that the fine touch ones, or any individual class, are always erogenous and the others never are. It is a gross oversimplification of biology to even say that a neuron is a “pain sensor,” because whether it’s stimulation is perceived as pain is context-dependent. Whether a certain stimulus or touch is perceived as erogenous or not is subjective and happens in the brain- erogenous sensations can come from all over the body, over many types of neurons.

            I’m not sure what will convince you that you are mistaken- try searching yourself for “erogenous” in pubmed and see how the word is used in the abstracts and titles. It’s the character of the sensation, not defined by the nerves that carry the signal to the spine.

          • Wren

            But…but…but…

            Just waiting to see why Lawrence’s biology degree beats a neuroscientist. I’m betting on “you’re lying and aren’t actually a neuroscientist”. Anyone else have a guess?

          • Wren

            I win!!!!!

          • Roadstergal

            You totally called it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Semi off-topic trivia question here: I once read that if you simultaneously stimulate both the heat sensing nerves and the cold sensing nerves in a given area of the body, it will be perceived as very intense heat. Is that true?

          • Valerie

            Yep. It’s called the “thermal grill illusion.”

          • Nick Sanders

            Sweet, now that I know the name, I can actually look it up. Thank you very much.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Bullshit. you’re no neurologist. Free nerves are not erogenous. The problem is, you don’t understand the concept of what erogenous really is. Those tickly pleasurable sensations you feel when you masturbate? Erogenous. The heel of the foot is not erogenous. The glans has about as much fine touch sensitivity as the heel of the foot.

            Another pro-circer who can’t handle the reality of having the corruption and fraud of circumcision exposed.

            Do you support MGM? Do you support FGM?

          • Wren

            Or you do not understand what erogenous is.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Oh , I do. You obviously don’t.

          • Wren

            I’m the one who gets off regularly.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Define “get off”.

          • Wren

            Orgasm, with plenty of sexual pleasure through the build up.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Circumcised men can’t get off, then. As they have little to no erogenous tissue. they can succeed in emptying their prostate, but there’s little to no pleasure in it.

          • Valerie

            Wow, jumping to any conclusions here? I’m a neuroscientist, and the lab that I work in studies sensory neurons. If you look around here, you’ll find that there are a lot of doctors and scientists who comment on this blog. “Erogenous” is subjective. Look it up instead of repeatedly asserting your ignorance. Even wikipedia knows you are wrong, and, believe it or not, stimulation of the feet IS erogenous to some people.

            And for the record, I do not think routine infant circumcision is justified. I made a few comments to that effect on an old post if you care to look.

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/05/the-appalling-spectacle-of-anti-circ-activists-obsessing-over-the-penis-of-another-persons-son.html

            I’m just trying to set you straight on the neural basis of sensation, because you clearly are misunderstanding the terminology.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s not subjective that the foreskin contains almost all the erogenous nerves. it’s a scientific fact. IF erogenous was subjective, FGM would be legal. Play again.

          • Valerie

            Do you care if what you believe and what you say reflects reality? If you do, the only way to tell if your understanding is correct is to test it. You don’t even have to be an expert to try to evaluate your claim that “erogenous” is a type of nerve (with all the other properties you claim they have). Use PubMed, the database of all the peer reviewed journals that researchers use. Search for “erogenous nerve.” What you’ll find, just by the way it’s used in the abstracts if you are behind a paywall, is that it’s the character of sensation. When biology is taught to undergrads or the public at large, things tend to be simplified to an extreme degree. I don’t just mean leaving out details, I mean that actual biological systems are variable and not nearly as clear-cut and easy to understand as it is in the diagrams. Nobody sat down and engineered a person with labeled, purpose-defined neurons that hook into the spine to generate the desired response.

            Also your statement about female genital cutting is just a logical fallacy. One cannot prove that something is biologically hard-wired in a particular way by examining legislation. That’s not how science works.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Ah, so FGM should be legal as it’s not been proven it reduces sexual pleasure?

            PubMed is full of pro-circumcision propaganda. SOme idiot on here linked me to a “study” of KEnyan men that said over 90% of them said circumcision improved sexual sensation. That’s scientifically impossible. IF you have a brain, you will realise that. The circumcision industry is big business and almost all these studies are fraudulent. My god, they make a fortune from it. Conflict of interests.

            I used my foreskin. I know what it felt like. I know what the glans feels like. Histological analysis tallies with my experience. Whether you want to accept there are erogenous nerves or not, I know that all the sexually stimulating nerves are in the foreskin. The sexually stimulating nerves are the encapsulated fine touch receptors. Crude free nerves do not stimulate sexually.

          • Valerie

            Again- your argument about female genital cutting is irrelevant and illogical. I’m just telling you about organization in the nervous system and how nerves are classified. I’m not even talking about circumcision. What you are saying about “erogenous nerves” makes no sense: there are no specified “erogeny detectors.” That is simply not how the nervous system works. Pubmed is an index of all of the peer-reviewed research, not just about circumcision. Here, this one has nothing to do with circumcision. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25068350 It’s about rerouting nerves to provide tactile (touch) and erogenous (producing sexual feelings) sensations from the penis. They are very clearly talking about erogenous sensation, not erogenous fibers, and distinguish it from the perception of touch.

            You aren’t listening to anything anybody here has said. I’m sorry that your experience is that you don’t have erogenous sensations, but you are fractally wrong about “erogenous nerves.” Your are mistaken about the biology, and you are wrong to insist that you know how everybody else’s sexuality works- what types of sensations where are sexually satisfying or arousing. Your assertion that only the prepuce can provide erogenous sensation is completely inconsistent with my experience as a female with typical, unaltered genitals.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So your’e saying you own a male foreskin and a male glans? lol

          • Lawrence Newman

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAHGFx95D80

            LEt me guess … you think this guy has a mental problem, not a physical one? lol

          • Who?

            They’re not exclusive. But how you respond is important too.

            Letting the MRA boys rev you up won’t make you happier-they need you to be broken to keep you in their world. People who are mentally well and feel good about themselves don’t rage about things they can’t fix or change, they move on to the best life they can have.

          • Lawrence Newman

            But circumcision CAN be banned. Female circumcision was banned.

          • Who?

            No one can be circumcised without their consent; parents consent on a child’s behalf. Why ban something that is a legitimate medical procedure in certain circumstances, just to satisfy a few angry guys?

          • Lawrence Newman

            IT’s not a medical procedure as there is not a medical reason to cut off the baby’s foreskin. In order to be a medical procedure, there would need to be a medical complaint. A baby’s foreskin is erogenous tissue and part of the penis. It is not a disorder. Circumcision is a religious sacrificial rite which was adopted by doctors to sexually suppress. I’ve told you this fact repeatedly. Why do you keep denying facts?

            Circumcision removes the primary erogenous organ. That is an act of assault that irreversibly suppresses a man’s sexual enjoyment for life. Not an opinion but a scientific fact confirmed by neurological investigation of the penis.

            Every time you call male circumcision a medical procedure, you are calling female circumcision a medical procedure, because both share a similar history and were always done for the same sex negative reasons. You just can’t come round to reality due to being socially conditioned. IF circumcision was invented today without all the religious baggage, you’d call it barbaric.

            Now compartmentalise everything you’ve been led to believe, put it to one side, and learn the history of circumcision:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Masturbation_concerns

          • Who?

            I’m sorry you are so sad and angry, and deranged.

            None of what you say makes any sense, nor is it ‘logical’, even by your definition of that much abused word.

            And yes, cutting the foreskin off a tiny baby is horrible, I would never agree to it for its own sake and I don’t personally know anyone who ever has. Please keep away from your MRA buddies, they are doing you damage far beyond what was ever done to you by a surgeon.

          • Mishimoo

            I want to know if he is equally against surgery on intersex children. If not, why not? It’s a bit more involved and potentially has greater consequences than a circumcision.

          • Who?

            He’s so sad and angry, he probably doesn’t believe intersex is a thing, because he has not personally experienced it.

            What I want to know is whether my children are pseudo-children, and the time, care and money I’ve lavished on them oer the years is all pseudo too. If so, I’ve banked loads of emotional energy, and I am in fact rich!!!

            It sounds like I”m mocking but it never ceases to appall me how people can ruin their own lives using only the power of their own minds.

          • Mishimoo

            Congratulations on being rich! It’s nice to know I’m not the only one with a pseudo-child.

            Crude, but apt: My dear husband exasperatedly burst out with “If all of the nerves are in the foreskin and it’s the only erogenous zone, how am I not creaming myself every time I walk around?” upon hearing some of this comment thread.

          • Who?

            Well, quite. Poor Lawrence.

            He’s put me in mind of William Chidley, one of our less illustrious but more interesting historical figures.

            Unlike our boy here though, WC was really all about peace and love: http://insidestory.org.au/william-chidleys-answer-to-the-sex-problem

          • Mishimoo

            That’s the first mention I’ve seen of Karezza since I read the Phryne Fisher novels. I was wondering how popular it was back then. And yes, Chifley was a rather interesting fellow. Poor bloke was rather ahead of his time with the attempted consideration for women, even though his notions about sex were a bit odd.

          • Roadstergal

            That’s quite a fascinating read, but I have to say – “Balls-Headley”??

          • Lawrence Newman

            So let me get this straight. You are against cutting off the foreskin of kids, yet you call me deranged for telling the truth that I have no sexual sensation now due to being circumcised.

            If you’re so about the human rights, why are you so stubborn and close-minded on the neurology of the situation? You’ve admitted doctors are wrong for doing this, yet you stop there and won’t accept the possibility that I could be right.

          • Wren

            So your parents had you circumcised at 14 in order to deny you sexual pleasure and ensure you would not cheat on a future spouse?

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, my parents did not give informed consent.

          • Wren

            But all those girls who suffered various types of FGM did give informed consent, or at least their parents did?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Oh, so the parents own their girls? And you’re okay with that? Do you agree with them fucking their girls, too?

          • Wren

            You have a clear misunderstanding of the role of the parent.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Do you think parents own their children?

          • Wren

            No.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Then why do they have a right to chop up their genitals? The only logical deduction if you believe that, is that you think parents own their kids.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If it’s a parent’s right to cut off a kid’s foreskin, then it’s the kid’s right to grow up and behead the parent. Actions have consequences. Do you agree with parents raping their kids? If not, why not? That’s less damaging than a lifetime of having mutilated sexually suppressed genitals.

          • Nick Sanders

            Even if I agreed that parents getting their kids circumcised was unethical, let alone a tragedy, you have absolutely no sense of proportion.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Or could it be you’re completely ignorant about the importance of the foreskin?

          • Nick Sanders

            Nah, it’s definitely important enough to justify beheading.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “No one can be circumcised without their consent”

            Why do you attack the foreskin and no other body part? If parents wanted to cut off their kid’s arm, would you support that? If not, why not? Why do you hate the foreskin and no other body part? Answer: social conditioning.

            Brainwashed fool.

          • Who?

            I have never consented to a circumcision.

            Of course I would consent to a cut if there was a medical reason, I would be irresponsible not to in that case.

            Brainwashed describes your MRA conditioning. It’s so sad and such a waste.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What medical reasons! You haven’t given me a medical reason!

          • Wren

            My parents consented to my tonsils being cut out. They mutilated me!

            If my son needed a circumcision for a medical reason, heck yeah I’d consent to it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s highly likely your tonsils didn’t need cut out , though. They used to do that all the time, but it’s far rarer now.

            NAme a medical condition that necessitates circumcision and I’ll educate you.

          • Wren

            Cutting them out did stop the near constant tonsillitis and ear infections I’d get alongside it, saving me from pain and preventing any further hearing loss.

            Nah, my parents should have left them in.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Constant? And you say I exaggerate.

          • Wren

            “near constant” was the phrase used. In the year before I had them out, I was diagnosed with tonsillitis and/or ear infection over 20 times, leading to the removal. In the 36 years since, I have had a total of 5 ear infections and obviously no tonsillitis.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m sure Hoter would tell you that you’ve had tonsillitis just as frequently, the doctors just started calling it something different so they could justify selling you the tonsillectomy. 😛

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well if that’s true, that ‘s a genuine problem . I agree. But what relevance has this got to circumcision? There’s nothing in existence that would cause 20 problems with the penis and would be solved solely by circumcision.

          • Wren

            Phimosis can be a recurring problem, despite treatment. So can paraphimosis. Sometimes circumcision is, in fact, the only enduring treatment.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Incorrect. Not one case of phimosis requires circumcision. Why cut off the whole organ when only a tiny v-slit in the tip is needed?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why are many men angry they’re circumcised? Is it possible that, you know, they don’t like having little to no sexual pleasure?

            Why is it when mutilated men complain, theyr’e told to man up or stop whining, but if a female circumcision victim complains, everyone starts crying and sobbing and shouting about all these evil oppressive men, even though it’s females doing it to other females?

          • Who?

            I don’t know one man who is unhappy with his circumcised state.

            You’re unhappy, and that’s a shame. The people who rev you up to continue to be unhappy are not your friends. Find a way to be okay with how you are, you have only one life.

            By all means campaign against circumcision, but if you sound like a zealot, you won’t win anyone over.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Every time an unhappy man tells you he’s unhappy with being circumcised, you tell him you don’t know one man unhappy with his circumcised state. When 100 men have told you this, you tell the 101st man to tell you this you don’t know any men who are unhappy with it.

            Why do you do this ? Are you circumcised yourself? Is this a coping mechanism? The way you keep coming back on here replying to me suggests you are a mutilated man who is unhappy with it but won’t admit it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Every time a man not devastated by being circumcised tell you they aren’t devastated, you tell them their in denial about their RUINEDFOREVER penis.

            Why do you do this? Is this a coping mechanism?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Hang on, I never said all men circumcised at birth were devastated. You can’t miss what you never had. I said that just because they don’t know what they’ve lost, doesn’t mean they’re not a victim of sexually suppressive mutilation. By your logic, FGM is okay if done on baby girls if they grow up and claim they aren’t sexually suppressed. Learn to reason.

            A circumcised penis IS ruined because it is missing the primary erogenous organ. Yo u cannot alter form without altering function. I know you’re a progressive and will find this hard to cope with, but it’s my duty to inform you that scientific facts trump your feelings.

          • Nick Sanders

            You just aren’t happy if you aren’t the worst off person around, are you?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I never said I was the worst off person around. More strawmanning. 30% of the world’s men are circumcised. We are all victims. I could have had it worse–I could have had my penis chopped off like many other boys who go through this. Or it could have dropped off due to infection:

            http://ulwaluko.co.za/Photos.html

            But hey, it’s no big deal. Only thousands die every yr from this. FGM is worse. yaddah yaddah

          • Wren

            Why are so few circumcised men angry? Is it possible they are happy with the current state of affairs?

            The ones I really wonder about are those who claim to have been circumcised before engaging in sexual activity who still believe that there is some greater sexual pleasure they are missing out on.

          • Lawrence Newman

            How do you know few are angry? When men express anger in public, they get mocked and are not believed, as is happening here. The same phenomenon happens in FGM cultures.

          • Lawrence Newman

            What certain circumstances? Reasons given to circumcise are bogus. Things like tight foreskin do not require circumcision, and it’s medical negligence to do it for this.

          • Who?

            I have no idea what circumstances-in the unlikely event I had to make that decision on behalf of a child I would be advised by the medical professionals I had consulted, not some angry professional victim on the internet.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So you’ve admitted circumcision is wrong and damaging, meaning you’ve accepted doctors are wrong for doing it. Yet you’d accept their advice to circumcise your kid for a medical condition, even if you don’t know what medical condition would necessitate it? Hmmm…

          • Lawrence Newman

            I am a victim. All circumcised men are.

          • Wren

            No sensation at all? That certainly seems like a problem unrelated to the circumcision.

          • Lawrence Newman

            If you are correct, then you will be able to cite just one neurological study that proves the glans is significantly erogenous.

            When you can’t do that, realise I really have won the debate.

          • Lawrence Newman

            fishernate 3 weeks ago

            This exact thing happened to me… I was 19. Biggest regret of my entire life. If men circumcised as babies knew what they were missing they’d cry themselves to sleep at night. My sensitivity went from a 10/10 to a 2/10. This maddening to think we still do this to baby boys without consent. If you have a baby and you think it’s born anything other than absolutely perfect you shouldn’t have kids at all.

            MENTALLY TRAUMATISED!!!!111oneoneone

          • Wren

            You do realise that a whole lot of men, gay and straight, find prostate massage pretty darned erogenous, right? If it feels like “squeezing a gland” maybe you’re doing it wrong.

            Actually, I think I may have figured it out. You have absolutely no idea of the role context plays in sexual stimulation. Example: breastfeeding my kids had no effect on me sexually, but nipple stimulation during a sexual encounter is extremely effective. Masturbation or sexual intercourse while thinking about being mutilated and lacking all erogenous sensation the whole time probably does lead to massively reduced sexual pleasure and difficulty keeping an erection. What you fail to realise is that most intact men would probably have the same problem if that was all they thought about during sex, alone or with a partner.

          • Roadstergal

            “You do realise that a whole lot of men”

            And women… #MontyPython

            Yes, that’s exactly it – I was probably overly crude with my suggestion to get drunk, but sometimes chemicals can be helpful in a limited role to snap one out of oneself a bit. Pot might work better, actually.

            And aside from context, he seems to have a very rigid… tab A into slot B approach to sex. I could well be wrong, but it reeks of fundamentalist religious upbringing that says you only do a very specific sort of sex and any other type of stimulation in a sexual context is unnecessary and immoral.

            As does his characterization below of using pain in a sexual context as something done by ‘a minority of deviants’. *giggle*

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Even with tab A into slot B there’s a lot more out there than missionary.

            Living rooms make fantastic places to experiment.

          • Wren

            They do, right up until you have children who are old enough to wander out of their bedrooms. Living room experimentation has been put on hiatus until they do more sleepovers or we manage a rare day off when they have school.

          • Roadstergal

            I remember Frankie Boyle noting that butter improved his sex life – he put it on the door handle to keep the kid from coming in.

          • Wren

            I don’t think he could handle it if we were to get into women who enjoy using the non-erogenous (to him) anus. He might just explode.

          • Roadstergal

            He’d just say they were lying about enjoying it.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Then you will be able to provide neurological evidence of what you claim. Peer-reviewed papers please. Not folk theories from the gay community.

            ” Masturbation or sexual intercourse while thinking about being mutilated and lacking all erogenous sensation the whole time probably does lead to massively reduced sexual pleasure and difficulty keeping an erection.”

            Ah, so you now admit circumcised men are lacking all erogenous tissue? Interesting. Yet you seem to think that they can magically conjure erogenous sensation out of midair without the nerves?

            Tell me, if you had your vulva chopped off and vagina scooped out , would you get erogenous sensation from your genitals?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Read comprehension. You lack it.

            She’s saying if YOU/The person trying to get sexual gratification keeps telling themselves nothing will happen because they believe, right or wrong, that they lack the capacity to feel it then it’s not surprising there’s no pleasure. Because sex and arousal are a very mental thing for both sexes.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I was immediately lacking in sensation upon being circumcised. This isn’t psychological, it’s due to having no erogenous tissue.

            When you dismiss what I’m saying like this, you are logically calling FGM victims who say they feel nothing psychologically damaged but physically unharmed.

          • Wren

            “thinking about” applies to both “being mutilated” AND “lacking all erogenous sensation”. No admission from me on that, as not one of the circumcised men I have been with did lack all erogenous sensation. You may have a great deal of experience with one circumcised penis, but I can claim experience with more than one and I’m guessing I’m not the only one here.

            Had you stuck to a claim of reduced sensation, that might hold water though even then it is uncertain. Your absolute claim of no erogenous sensation is bizarre at best in the face of millions upon millions of circumcised men who all show every sign of having erogenous sensation.

            If my clitoris were not taken, I could probably still manage orgasms. I am sure there is some woman out there who could orgasm from vulva stimulation alone, but I certainly could not and it is not the normal mechanism. You are clearly lacking in your knowledge of female anatomy. Women generally find clitoral orgasms far easier to achieve than vaginal orgasms. It’s the reason that clitoridectomy is a more common form of FGM than infibulation.

            It is possible you should do a teeny bit of research before claiming that FGM cannot cause infertility. It can.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Most circumcisions are periah-style, i.e. no ridged band, no frenular delta and no frenulum. this results in no erogenous sensation. The amount of erogenous sensation is directly correlated to the amount of these structures left. The fact that a minority of circumcised men have a scrap of frenular delta doesn’t disprove what I’m saying.

            “Your absolute claim of no erogenous sensation is bizarre at best in the face of millions upon millions of circumcised men who all show every sign of having erogenous sensation.”

            No, you ASSUME they show every sign. Wantign to have sex in order to experience visual and tactile stimulation and to clear the prostate doesn’t equal proof they have erogenous sensation. By that logic, FGM doesn’t take away erogenous sensation since FGM victims have sex.

            “If my clitoris were not taken, I could probably still manage orgasms. I am sure there is some woman out there who could orgasm from vulva stimulation alone, but I certainly could not and it is not the normal mechanism. You are clearly lacking in your knowledge of female anatomy. Women generally find clitoral orgasms far easier to achieve than vaginal orgasms. It’s the reason that clitoridectomy is a more common form of FGM than infibulation.”

            Most forms of FGM do not remove the clitoris. And there is no neurological evidence the glans clitoris is the primary erogenous tissue. This is another folk theory. Given that the glans penis and glans clitoris are anatomical analogues, it’s far more likely that the hood/labia have the majority of fine touch receptors. Unfortunately you, like many men, swallow the notion that the glans is the hub of pleasure, without actually localising their sensations. I’ve spoken to intact men who thought it was the glans, only for me to tell them to try and masturbate with the glans alone. They came back to me and said, wow, it’s actually the foreskin–the glans feels of nothing much at all.

            “It is possible you should do a teeny bit of research before claiming that FGM cannot cause infertility. It can.”

            Removing the ovaries causes infertility. Cosmetic surgery to the vulva does not. Makes no logical sense. This is propaganda from places like the WHO (who, by the way, promote circumcision of males and contradict their policies on human rights abuses).

          • Wren

            Pelvic infections are a major cause of infertility. Pelvic infections are much more common in FGM.

            You can’t seriously believe female infertility is solely caused by removal of ovaries, can you?

          • Roadstergal

            It’s an idea very much in keeping with his ‘interesting’ views on human anatomy.

          • Who?

            I would assume nothing when considering Lawrie’s ideas about anything remotely to do with sex.

          • MaineJen

            …I wonder how long he waits on a first date to bring up the word “foreskin.”

          • Who?

            I think he probably doesn’t get that far as I’m sure the subject comes up in the pre-date getting to know you chat.

            You can see how compelling that would be?

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, but the claim FGM is causing this epidemic of infertility is laughable and unproven. It’s exaggeration. They exaggerate the effects of FGM and trivilise the effects of MGM. Typical gynocentrism. They never mention all the men in Africa with their dicks falling off:

            http://ulwaluko.co.za/Photos.html

          • Wren

            “Then you will be able to provide neurological evidence of what you claim. Peer-reviewed papers please. Not folk theories from the gay community.”

            Are you actually trying to claim here that many men do not find prostate massage pleasurable?

            Your claim to absolute knowledge of other people’s sexual enjoyment is actually even more laughable than creationist claims.

          • Roadstergal

            I am starting to think that ‘erogenous,’ like ‘logic’ and ‘histology,’ is a word that Lawrence uses in his own Humpty Dumpty way.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, he’s glommed onto several words as if they were powerful talismans that are the basis of arguments rather than the meanings behind them. So he constantly trots them out in completely inappropriate ways, and can’t understand why they don’t work for him they way they did by the people he stole them from.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Then show me proof it has erogenous nerves. Why would we evolve to have erogenous nerves on an internal organ like that?

            You clearly don’t understand what I mean by erogenous sensation. What I mean is densely innervated fine touch reception on the genitals with neural pathways communicating intense sexual pleasure to our brains. The release of semen from the prostate is the result of stimulating the genitals. Massaging the prostate simply bypasses this but it isn’t erogenous, other than the feeling of release of semen.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I don’t think we do because the sensation that you’re expecting and told exists is as likely to exist as rainbow farting unicorns.

            Whatever it is you’re expecting it to feel like or supposed to do, maybe bring yourself back to reality.

            What exactly is it supposed to feel like? My husband says having an orgasm brings a great sense of pleasure throughout his body, not just the penis. After the initial high it’s a sense of complete relaxation and peace of mind. Also that he feels more bonded and closer to me.

            So what, pray tell, is he missing?

          • Lawrence Newman

            You’re simplifying male sexuality into an ejaculation. It’s meant to feel good during the act. If your husband is intact, he’ll be able to describe the rainbow of sensations. I know what it’s meant to feel like as I had a foreskin and used it. It’s a ticklish, comforting, highly pleasurable sensation. Stretching and touching the tip of the foreskin is what allows you to reach proper orgasm. Since being circumcised I can’t feel any pleasure pre-ejaculation, and the “orgasm” isn’t what it was. It’s seriously weakened.

          • Nick Sanders

            You’re simplifying male sexuality into an ejaculation.

            And you aren’t?

          • Roadstergal

            Actually, he’s simplifying it into ‘touching the foreskin.’ Literally _nothing_ else counts as male sexuality for Lawrence.

          • Mishimoo

            Which I have been informed us literally the most boring thing ever, and that everything else in that region is more receptive to touch.

          • Roadstergal

            Like I mentioned below, I’ve been with a lot of guys, and I’ve never been with a guy who had any interest in foreskin play. I don’t doubt they exist, but the idea that it’s the be-all-end(ha)-all of male sexuality is demonstrably laughable.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, I’m not. Where would you get that idea? I’m talking about the removal via circumcision of the tissue which gives pleasure pre-ejaculation.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because it’s apparently the only area on the entire male body capable of feeling good touch. The entire rest of the body is totally numb.

          • Lawrence Newman

            The parts external to the genitals that can be pleasurable to touch do not have neural pathways that communicate sexual pleasure like fine-touch receptors on genitals.

          • Nick Sanders

            More than one person with relevant medical knowledge here has pointed out that they do.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, they didn’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            No, when did I say that? Are you retarded. I said there are two different types of nerve: free nerve and fine touch. Free nerves are non erogenous. Fine touch are erogenous. There ar efine touch nerves on the rest of the body, it’s just they are in greatly reduced densities than in the foreskin and there are different neural pathways for them. We’re talking about the genitals and circumcision, not the rest of the body. Do we tell anti-FGM campaigners, well, women enjoy being massaged, so why are you focusing on women’s genitals?

          • MaineJen

            So you don’t think circed men feel *anything* before the final moment?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Most don’t. What they feel is proportional to how much of the frenulum, delta and ridged band are left. Most have none of these as theyr’e stripped off. You’re rubbing at the frenular scar tissue to try and stimulate the remaining one or two nerves under the skin there. This is why the odd circumcised man has told me they can’t ejaculate–because the knife went in deeper and took away everything from the frenular area.

          • Who?

            I must say all these men out there, feeling nothing, but having sex to satisfy their partner’s base lusts, are a missed opportunity for the female gender.

            If we can just get them to feel the same sense of duty about pay and promotions, we’ll be at equality before we know it!

          • Roadstergal

            I still don’t understand why, under Lawrence’s view of the world, they pay to have it.

          • Who?

            Or bother at all. Why not just masturbate and save the emotional hassle. According to Lawrie it’s like blowing the nose.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Oh, you believe in the wage gap that’s been debunked by all prominent economists. Well that doesnt’ come as a surprise.

          • Who?

            Wouldn’t have anything to do with you being 14 when you were (ahem) ‘whole’ and now no longer 14?

          • Lawrence Newman

            I felt nothing post-circ at 14. I felt nothing at 20. I felt nothing at 25. I felt nothing at 30. Why are you having problems with this?

          • Who?

            Your problem is between your ears, not between your legs. Unfortunately you think sex is all about the penis, and it just isn’t, for men or women.

            Sex is great, you should try it some time without the incessant harping and judging, which let me tell you are a real turn-off for women and must have the same effect on you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “Your problem is between your ears, not between your legs.”

            So a man with no arms who can’t feel his arms …. his problem is psychological?

            “Sex is great,”

            It is if you have a foreskin, I agree

          • Who?

            You’re all wrong in your interpretation of the world.

            You’ve got a victim thing going, and you’re wasting your one life on it. Saves you having to actually do anything, I suppose, so no risk of failure there.

            Go and have a session with your MRA buddies, they’ll validate you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Are you a feminist?

          • MaineJen

            I think you’ll find there are a lot of feminists among the educated classes.

          • Who?

            What conceivable difference would that make to anything to do with your victim-o-rama?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Answer the question. Humour me.

          • Who?

            Shan’t.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You know where I’m going with this. lol

          • Who?

            You are entirely predictable, which may be another problem with your sexual technique also.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, because shaming tactics have worked so far….

          • Who?

            It’s good to mix it up. You don’t see it, but I’m trying to help you.

          • Elizabeth A

            By that logic, no woman has ever enjoyed sex, and none ever will.

          • Lawrence Newman

            I know, right? Men just don’t like to talk about the escapades of Lady Gaga and whether One Direction are splitting up.

          • Elizabeth A

            What?

            Look, if that’s your view of women (and you’re trying to date them), I have some ideas about possible sources for your lack of sexual sensation.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well you were the one who insulted all men with the previous comment. You can dish it out but can’t take it.

          • Elizabeth A

            Is pointing out flaws in your logic somehow insulting all men?

            And is “likes to talk about Lady Gaga” supposed to be some kind of insult? If so, how would it apply to me, when I can’t recall off the top of my head, anything about Lady Gaga except “meat dress at something?”

          • Lawrence Newman

            You didn’t. You just insulted all men

          • Elizabeth A

            You think I didn’t point out a flaw in your logic.

            Indulge my curiousity, which comment exactly do you think you’re responding to?

          • Nick Sanders

            She didn’t insult any men. Ok, well, she insulted one, but he had it coming.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, she did. Did I have circumcision coming too? Why do you hate men?

          • Roadstergal

            That’s an interesting question. It’s all second-hand information from not the most reliable of sources, but it sounds like one of the issues was that your masturbation technique was exclusively foreskin-based, to the point where you couldn’t bring yourself to lay off even when there was a clear medical issue arising from it. Ironically, diversifying your masturbation technique away from All Foreskin All The Time might have helped…

          • Wren

            Now Roadstergal, you know all men masturbate, and all who can do it using the foreskin alone. Lawrence has made it clear that the only way to have a satisfying orgasm is his way, except for a few perverts who do other things.

          • Wren

            Interesting finding: “A study in the British Journal of Sexual Medicine in 1997 of men aged 18-22 found that those with a tight foreskin either never masturbated or used an unusual technique. Once they did masturbate in a more conventional way (ie. an up and down motion mimicking sex), the problem righted itself in a few weeks.” from https://www.menshealthforum.org.uk/circumcision-faqs It’s a UK site that’s pretty anti-circ really.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Masturbation involved the foreskin. Without it, you’re rubbing foreskin remnants.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t think phimosis can be caused by masturbation. However, the forced retraction leading to paraphimosis that he mentioned, well, that might be a different story.

          • Wren

            I know plenty of men who would be happier to discuss those than I would.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes, hairdressers.

          • Wren

            Is that meant to be a slur on gay men and/or hairdressers somehow?

          • Nick Sanders

            Probably both.

          • Lawrence Newman

            It’s called a joke. Lighten up, babe.

          • Who?

            And you wonder why no one will have sex with you.

          • Lawrence Newman

            More shaming tactics. I’ve had “sex” before. I gave up on it as it feels of nothing. It’s just frustrating.

          • Wren

            Please refrain from calling me pet names.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Okay, honeybun

          • Wren

            So respectful.

          • Lawrence Newman

            You can dish out loads of contempt for circumcised men who complain, yet you get angry at a wee joke about effeminate gay men. You are the face of the progressive movement.

          • Wren

            You are so certain your personal experience is somehow universal, despite masses of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It’s truly odd.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Because neurology trumps the feelings of men circumcised at birth with no point of comparison! FGM victims defend circumcision, too!

            By your logic, men who had their feet cut off who say they can still walk, means cutting off feet doesnt’ cause dysfunction and doesn’t stop people feeling their feet. lol madness

          • Wren

            Your personal experience does not even match up with all men circumcised as teenagers or adults though.

            Your personal masturbation technique clearly didn’t work post-circ, but that hardly means it’s the same for everyone.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Why do you keep avoiding hard science discussions and instead keep talking of anecdotes of men with no point of comparison?

          • Wren

            You clearly do not understand the science.

            Why are you so certain the men discussed have no point of comparison? You are not the only man circumcised after 13.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Most men who’re circumcised were circumcised in pre pubescence. Not many men get circumcised as adults. Those that do are usually duped and regret it. There are a tiny minority of circumsexual nutters though.

          • Wren

            Post puberty circumcision is actually common within certain cultures.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Over 90% of circumcision is done in infancy, certainly in the West.

          • Wren

            Oh yes, only the West counts.

          • Lawrence Newman

            Well most circumcision all over the world is done in prepubescence. Same for FGM.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I know people who have lost their feet. They bitch significantly less than you.

            In fact I work at a hospital checking cancer patients in right now. Some have lost a lot more than their foreskin down there. Still haven’t heard them bitch. And they’re walkingp past my desk to get irradiated.

            You just don’t want to responsible for your actions. There wrongful victim blaming and then there’s calling someone out for hiding behind the victim label to avoid responsibility.

            You’re using this to not have to try at life. Because life betrayed you so horribly. Boo fucking hoo. You’re going to let this rule your life? Even the rape victims you keep bringing up get back up after they’ve been brutalized and say “This does not define me!” Women who had FGM done to them stand up and say their genitals are not the extent of their worth as a human being and they have more to offer the world.

            So I’m going to do what no enough people have the guts to: Close down your pity party, take a look at your life, and realize that life goes on. YOU are letting this define you. No one else. YOU are responsible for your feelings and emotions. No me, not some Jewish guy, not all the women around you.

            If you’re the strong, prideful man you claim all men are, then get your ass out of your home and do something with your life. If a “weak, stupid woman” can do it after being losing all their sexual pleasure, what’s stopping you?

            Put your big boy boxers on and be an adult for fuck’s sake.

          • Who?

            Upvote that.

          • Who?

            A friend went in for a liver transplant overnight, his second in three years, due to liver disease. He is under 30. I have never heard him whinge and bitch like this guy, despite near constant illness and literal life and death struggles.

          • Lawrence Newman

            “I know people who have lost their feet. They bitch significantly less than you.

            Yes, but this is a false comparison. Hospitals do not legally routinely remove feet, babes.

            “In fact I work at a hospital checking cancer patients in right now. Some have lost a lot more than their foreskin down there. Still haven’t heard them bitch. And they’re walkingp past my desk to get irradiated.

            If I had cancer of the foreskin, there would have been a legitimate need to remove it. That’s therapeutic medicine. Removing healthy erogenous tissue from infants is not treating cancer.

            “You just don’t want to responsible for your actions. There wrongful victim blaming and then there’s calling someone out for hiding behind the victim label to avoid responsibility.

            I didn’t cut off my foreskin. I haven’t cut off any male’s foreskin. IT’s doctors who don’t want to be held accountable for their actions, and the ignorant parents who employ them to mutilate their kids.

            ” Even the rape victims you keep bringing up get back up after they’ve been brutalized and say “This does not define me!” ”

            Rape is less damaging than irreversible sexual suppression, and it is not legal and institutional. these women also oppose rape, as I am opposing circumcision.

            “You’re using this to not have to try at life. Because life betrayed you so horribly. Boo fucking hoo. You’re going to let this rule your life? ”

            Do you think anti-FGM activists have been betrayed and have no life?

            “If you’re the strong, prideful man you claim all men are, then get your ass out of your home and do something with your life.”

            I am doing something. I’ve saved many boys from being mutilated because I educate people online. If I save just one boy from commenting on this page, it makes it worth it. Surely this has more value than being a hedge fund manager?

          • MaineJen

            “Rape is less damaging than irreversible sexual suppression”

            No.

          • Lawrence Newman

            So an unsolicited penis in a vagina is more damaging than removing erogenous tissue for life?

          • MaineJen

            Yes. Thank you for playing.

          • Nick Sanders

            You know it’s entirely possible to rape without involving a penis or a vagina, right?

          • Lawrence Newman

            Yes. Dont’ be pedantic.

          • Nick Sanders

            With you, it was a legitimate question.

          • Charybdis

            All right, that’s it. Have YOU ever been raped there, Larry? I have, and it does not even begin to compare with the “horrible experience” you are screaming about. I had NO CHOICE in the matter of being raped, never mind the fact that it was perpetrated by my evil ex husband. If it was that HUGE of a deal to you and you were 14 at the time, why the hell didn’t you speak up to your parents, who had to okay the procedure? “Hey, Mom and Dad, I know the doctor wants to do a circumcision to treat my phimosis or whatever issue it was, but I REALLY, REALLY FUCKING ENJOY RUBBING MY FORESKIN ALONG WITH MY DICK WHILE I MASTURBATE. I WANT TO KEEP IT. MY BOYFRIEND/GIRLFRIEND/SHEEP/SEX PARTNER DU JOUR WANTS ME TO KEEP IT, AND I WANT TO CONTINUE LIFE AS AN UNCIRCUMCISED MALE.” Or, “Hey, Doc, my parents want to deal with my issue by circumcising me and I don’t want that, Is it necessary, meaning is it the only treatment, or is there something else we could do/try? I feel funny talking to my parents about my sex life/number of sex partners/3x/day masturbation habit, but I really want to keep my foreskin. Can you talk to them for/with me??” Even if it was awkward, you could have at least stated your opinion on the situation. Or was EMBARRASSING for you to admit to your parents that you were already sexually experienced or had an out-of-control masturbation habit?
            Have you perchance looked into restoration? I mean, they do vaginal rejuvenations, hell, they do hymen replacement/rejuvenation for women. Maybe there is something for a guy. Oh, maybe you could get a cadaver graft, maybe. Or get one on the black market.

            But until you have an object forcefully and repeatedly shoved into body cavities while you try not to cry because that will only prolong the experience and have issues walking afterwards, not to mention tearing and bleeding, DO NOT try to compare a minor surgical procedure complete with anesthetic and medication with a rape. Just. NO.