Sure my baby died at homebirth, but that was just a coincidence!


It’s remarkable really. Homebirth had nothing to do with the fact that the baby died. It’s just an amazing coincidence.

Yes, I know that my obstetrician, my mother-in-law and my best friend warned me that the baby could die at homebirth, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the baby did die. It was just a coincidence.

You know what’s really amazing? Those naysayers who predict that homebirth might lead to the death of the baby often cite specific causes of death. Sure, that’s exactly how the baby ultimately died, but it was just a coincidence.

[pullquote align=”right” color=”” class=”” cite=”” link=””]Just because the baby unexpectedly fell out dead into my midwife’s hands, they want to blame the death on homebirth.[/pullquote]

It’s kind of eerie, when you think about it.

The naysayers insist that women shouldn’t attempt a VBAC at home because the uterus might rupture and then the baby will die. And lo and behold, the uterus ruptures and the baby dies. Fortunately, we know that was nothing more than a coincidence.

The naysayers claim that a single footling breech might have a cord prolapse and die. What do you know, the cord prolapses and the baby dies. But that was just a coincidence.

The naysayers like to scare women by claiming that if you had a shoulder dystocia in the past, the same thing may happen again in the next pregnancy. Amazingly, the baby dies at home of shoulder dystocia. Who could have seen that coming?

The naysayers don’t understand that breech is just a variation of normal. They say that the baby is at risk for head entrapment and death. Then, almost as if they predicted it, the baby’s head is trapped and the baby dies. What a coincidence.

The naysayers believe that listening to the baby’s heart rate instead of monitoring it with continuous electronic fetal monitoring will put the baby at risk for developing fetal distress without anyone realizing. Now, just because the baby unexpectedly fell out dead into my midwife’s hands, they want to blame the death on homebirth when it was nothing more than a coincidence.

The naysayers think that it isn’t enough that my midwife carries the same, the very same, the exact same resuscitation equipment at the hospital. They warn that the baby may die for lack of an expert to perform a resuscitation. Sure that’s exactly what happened, but we all know that’s a coincidence.

It’s remarkable really. Coincidence upon coincidence.

Wait, what? You think it wasn’t a coincidence that the baby died of the exact same thing that the naysayers warned against.

You are mean!

You are disgusting!

Just because they wrote their stories on blogs and message board available to hundreds of millions of people doesn’t mean that the story isn’t deeply private.

These women are grieving!

You know what? You remind me of that judge who refused to show clemency to the man who murdered his parents. The guy was an orphan! If that doesn’t deserve sympathy I don’t know what does.

How do I know these were just coincidences?

I spent years educating myself by reading everything that other laypeople have written about childbirth. I’m not like those ignorant sheeple who think that just because an obstetrician went to college (you don’t need a degree to catch a baby), and went to medical school (where they learn mostly stuff that doesn’t have to do with birth) and delivered thousand of babies (but not even one totally naturally, outdoors, in the ocean, with dolphins), they might actually know more than me.

Oh, and don’t forget:

Babies die in the hospital, too. In fact MORE babies die in the hospital than at home. And interventions kill babies, and it is much safer for a woman who had 3 previous C-sections to rupture her uterus at home while trying to deliver a 10 pound single footling breech without continuous fetal monitoring and end up with a hysterectomy and 10 transfusions than to have an elective repeat C-section!

Sure the baby died in that case, too, but that was just a coincidence.

190 Responses to “Sure my baby died at homebirth, but that was just a coincidence!”

  1. HeartFelt
    September 16, 2016 at 9:26 am #

    I do not understand this article at all (too much irony?!), but is quite heartless to say the least!

  2. Anna
    October 8, 2015 at 6:03 am #

    Oh God. We are all only human and have our weaknesses. I must admit when I just found this blog I was a bit overwhelmed by the fact that I had had to have a c-section. In my twenties, healthy (supposedly?), never been in hospital, never had surgery before (obviously). Why wouldn’t my body work the right way? I wasn’t exactly embarassed like Kate Winslet, but not too excited to mention the c-section either. Although it went REALLY well, I healed REALLY quickly, the doctors and nurses and aftercare were awesome, so it was all in all a positive experience but with all this natural birth cult and people questioning the necessity of the surgery all the time I couldn’t help but hate it deep inside. And the c-section shelf I still can’t get rid of(( So I can say I might deep deep inside have understood these women and their desire to justify themselves, I can understand their unwillingness to undergo surgery again. It is scary! BUT! Now that time has passed and I have been studying this blog and similar and my daughter is a healthy happy 5 month old, my perspective has changed. I am proud of having made the right choice with all these confusing info around and bringing my daughter into the world in perfect health and avoiding the damage to myself either. Some things are just way more important than others. The discomfort of a c-section (it actually is more about discomfort and fear and short-time morbidity than pain, personally experienced no pain) is totally made up for by the happy smile of your baby months on!

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      October 8, 2015 at 1:14 pm #

      Why wouldn’t my body work the right way?

      Up until that point, your body worked perfectly? No glasses? No other issues?

      • Anna
        October 8, 2015 at 1:46 pm #

        Certainly not. Like all people I’ve had some minor health issues, but that was never given much attention. Actually I felt quite happy walking out of the maternity hospital and not like a crunch. And then all these “I’m so sorrry”, cast down eyes, pityful comments… I guess the issue is simply getting way too much attention. At least that’s precisely what started me thinking smth was wrong with me.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          October 8, 2015 at 1:56 pm #

          OK, but I guess I don’t understand why at the time you would be questioning why your body wasn’t working “the right way.” You knew your body wasn’t perfect, so why would the fact that it wasn’t perfect, even if you interpret needing a c-section that way, be a problem for you?

          So basically, I am wondering, where did you get the idea you should expect your body to always work perfectly? Especially considering that you knew it didn’t.

          • Anna
            October 8, 2015 at 2:03 pm #

            Well, I’m young, I had no issues with infertility, I conceived quickly and had a pretty easy pregnancy. I thought my body was good enough at THAT part. The c-section has ruined my self-esteem pretty badly. I don’t regret it though and feel more at peace with it now. Thanks to this blog too. Dr. Amy is doing a great job!

          • Daleth
            October 8, 2015 at 2:29 pm #

            Don’t forget: it’s not the c-section that “ruined your self-esteem.” It’s the natural birth cult that makes so many women feel like it REALLY MATTERS to give birth vaginally, like c-section means failure, etc. etc. Most of us get a little brainwashed by those beliefs–and it’s those beliefs, not the c-section itself, that caused any self-esteem problems.

            Wishing you healing from whatever’s left of those beliefs, so your self esteem can go back up where it belongs!

          • Anna
            October 8, 2015 at 2:50 pm #

            Thanks! Yes! You’ve put it just perfectly. The c-section itself is neither good nor bad, it’s a medical procedure performed when necessary. It’s the meaning we give it that matters. Thank you for your kind wishes!

          • Daleth
            October 9, 2015 at 9:35 am #

            You’re welcome, and best of luck!

          • Roadstergal
            October 13, 2015 at 12:15 pm #

            I don’t feel bad that I can’t run down an elk, kill it, skin it, and live off of it. I do all kinds of things that my elk-slaying ancestors couldn’t. I’m very happy about that! We have technology, and it is awesome!

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        October 14, 2015 at 3:04 am #

        I will admit that I was a little freaked out by needing a c-section. While it’s true that my body had failed to work perfectly in other ways prior to this (nearsightedness, Asperger’s, etc), this was the first time it had failed in a way that would have definitively killed me without help and that kind of did things to my feelings of independence and safety. Not a big deal, far better than losing my kid or dying or even being in the hospital for a week, but still a bit disturbing. Eventually I was sort of “eh, nothing to be done about it, time to move on” and did move on to bigger and better worries about life, the universe, and everything. But I can’t claim that I rolled with it perfectly.

    • demodocus
      October 8, 2015 at 2:43 pm #

      Congrats on your daughter!

  3. Medwife
    October 7, 2015 at 11:35 am #

    Grats 🙂

  4. araikwao
    October 6, 2015 at 3:57 pm #

    OT: very excited to have my first ever paper accepted, and to a pretty reputable OB/GYN journal at that! It is just a review paper, but I got really good comments from the external peer reviewers, and I hope it’s the first of many!! It is a real honour to have the opportunity to publish as a mere med student (actually, I only have that title for a few more weeks!!)

    • KeeperOfTheBooks
      October 6, 2015 at 4:17 pm #


    • demodocus
      October 6, 2015 at 4:37 pm #

      whoo-hoo! Congrats

    • Megan
      October 6, 2015 at 5:32 pm #


    • Amazed
      October 6, 2015 at 5:55 pm #

      Gongratulations! Quite impressive indeed!

    • Mishimoo
      October 6, 2015 at 6:57 pm #


    • Who?
      October 6, 2015 at 7:07 pm #

      Wonderful news, well done!

    • Sue
      October 6, 2015 at 9:38 pm #

      Great work!

    • seekingbalance
      October 6, 2015 at 10:11 pm #

      congratulations! what an accomplishment!

    • DiomedesV
      October 6, 2015 at 10:12 pm #

      Congratulations! The first paper is an important milestone!

    • FrequentFlyer
      October 7, 2015 at 1:20 pm #


    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      October 8, 2015 at 4:57 am #

      Excellent start! Congratulations! (Both on the paper and on your upcoming graduation.)

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      October 8, 2015 at 8:12 am #

      Also, it’s not “just” a review, it’s a peer reviewed article. It goes on your CV as of now! If you feel comfortable breaking anonymity and linking to it, I’d love to read it!

      • araikwao
        October 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm #

        Thank you!! And thank you everyone for sharing my excitement! I feel like I can’t really talk about it with my med school friends because I’m not sure how many of them are in a similarly fortunate position, but needed to do a (virtual) happy dance with some people who understood!!
        When I know it has been published online, I can let you know perhaps? I imagine there will be a paywall involved unless you have institution access..

        • Who?
          October 8, 2015 at 5:34 pm #

          ‘…not sure how many of them have worked really hard at writing a paper that was successfully peer reviewed and is now being published…’

          Be a man, take credit!

          • araikwao
            October 9, 2015 at 3:08 am #

            I’m a woman, is it still ok to take credit? 😉

          • yugaya
            October 9, 2015 at 3:12 am #


          • Who?
            October 9, 2015 at 4:24 am #

            Sorry-that’s my little reactive thing. Women call it luck, men call it hard work.

            I think the line is a bastardisation of a remark made by Jack Donaghy in 30 Rock, to the effect that women need to learn to take credit the way men tend to do, like it is their due.

            Anyway well done you, it wasn’t luck you earnt it!

    • October 20, 2015 at 6:16 pm #

      Ooh! Conga-rats!

  5. Hilary
    October 6, 2015 at 3:47 pm #

    I am SO getting dolphins for my next birth experience.

  6. lilin
    October 6, 2015 at 2:04 pm #

    I think you should add, “And after the baby died, I went to the hospital to get treated for that rupture because while I’ll deny medical care until my kid is good and dead, I sure as hell want to save my own precious skin.”

  7. demodocus
    October 6, 2015 at 1:13 pm #

    Heck, Jenny’s baby had dystocia and she’s fine, Mandie’s baby was a footling breech, and he’s fine, and Paula’s baby was a hba3c and she’s valedictorian of her kindergarten class. You’re just exaggerating to scare people, mean Dr. T. Everyone knows it’s fear that makes birthing complications.
    Hormones may be increasing my natural sarcasm tendencies today. Everything may progress just as a person fantasized, but in case the crap hits the fan I personally want the most skilled person we can find right there close enough to tickle my toes. (Warning: do not tickle my feet; I kick like a mule.)

    • Dr Kitty
      October 6, 2015 at 2:36 pm #

      Think about micropreemies- those born at the edge of viability.
      They have a 50% mortality rate, and the majority of the survivors will have lung disease, eye problems and some degree of disability- often very severe.

      But you don’t see those families in the newspapers or on Facebook, do you?
      No, you see the rare child who is neurotypical and physically well, usually under a heading like “Our Miracle”.

      People will hold onto the good and minimise the bad.
      Just because someone, somewhere took horrendous risks in childbirth and it worked out, doesn’t make it “safe”, any more than those stories of miracle micropreemies make the odds for a baby delivered at 24 weeks any better.

      In NCB circles it is even worse, because any attempt to show the risks or talk about bad outcomes is silenced, so that some people can be left with the impression that bad outcomes almost never happen.

      • Mariana Baca
        October 7, 2015 at 11:31 am #

        The difference, of course, is that hospitals work to develop new techniques to improve the rate of survival and quality of life of micropreemies. The rare good outcome is there to motivate better outcomes. Homebirth does nothing to improve the rate of survival from birth, and the good outcomes are there to motivate more people into increasingly risky behaviors.

  8. Bugsy
    October 6, 2015 at 1:06 pm #

    I just can’t understand it.

    I’m now 35 + 3 weeks following a FET in February. My son is kicking, rolling and pretty much driving me nuts with constant movement. Between bladder kicks, stomach kicks and pregnancy-induced acid reflux, I’m having fun.

    And yet every movement serves to remind me that there’s another living person in my belly. One who I would do – and have already done – everything I can for. There’s no way I would ever forgive myself if I went ahead with a birth type that didn’t give him the absolute best chance for survival as possible. I cannot understand the rationale of mothers who put their desire for a specific birth type or location over the well-being of both themselves and their unborn children.

    To heck with a birth plan or my feelings on the “perfect” type of birth. The only thing I want out of this upcoming birth is to hold in my arms the healthy living child who currently calls my body home.

    • Megan
      October 6, 2015 at 1:11 pm #

      I’m only far enough to feel flutters in my belly and I already feel the same way about my daughter. It is remarkable just how far removed these people seem from the fact that they have another human being depending on them making the safest choice for delivery. Or maybe they’ve just convinced themselves that nothing bad will happen to them or their baby. I don’t know. I don’t get it.

      • demodocus
        October 6, 2015 at 1:17 pm #

        Mine aren’t/isn’t even verified yet, and I agree.
        (judging by the fact that I have nearly every symptom in the book, I think there’s a good chance my FET took)

        • Bugsy
          October 6, 2015 at 1:29 pm #

          Fingers still crossed for you – hoping that it’s wonderful news. When is your beta?

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2015 at 1:47 pm #

            Thank you. 🙂
            I’m having an hcg blood test next Tuesday. The ultrasound wouldn’t be for quite a while yet. Today would be considered 4w0d

          • Bugsy
            October 6, 2015 at 1:48 pm #

            I’ve heard the term beta for those first HCG blood tests. Will you test at home early? I never could bring myself to do so…but holding out is really hard, too.

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

            No, I asked last time and they told me that the suppository I take messes with the pee test. As in, its pretty much always positive.

          • Bugsy
            October 6, 2015 at 2:10 pm #

            Makes sense. I had a chemical pregnancy with my IVF cycle last November, and had I tested early, it would have given me a positive as well. Such a roller coaster.

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2015 at 3:13 pm #

            Aye. Its probably a rollercoaster even for people who don’t need to do the whole rigamarole we had

          • Chi
            October 6, 2015 at 5:35 pm #

            My friend who had FET did her test last Saturday. Unfortunately, the numbers were really low so apparently they were retesting today, but according to my friend they didn’t sound too hopeful. Cos either it hasn’t taken, or it’s ectopic.

            Makes me feel so sad and like I let her down. I was her egg donor and we only got 5 eggs out of my cycle. All them fertilized initially but only 1 survived 🙁

            So this FET was kind of like their 1 shot to become parents and I feel like I failed them on my end. I’m not sure what happens if this doesn’t take. I think they were only funded for 1 cycle of IVF so if they want to try again, they’d have to pay out of their own pocket and it’s too expensive for that.

            So I’m crossing my fingers that even though the Saturday test was low, today’s is a lot more hopeful.

          • Mishimoo
            October 6, 2015 at 7:11 pm #

            Sure hope so!!

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2015 at 7:32 pm #

            Good luck to them. We were only able to afford it because of my mother’s life insurance. We were fortunate to have plenty of embryos off our only round of IVF

          • October 7, 2015 at 1:45 am #

            In a circle of life sort of way, that’s wonderful that your mother was able to give you the gift of new life.

          • demodocus
            October 7, 2015 at 12:54 pm #

            She’d certainly approve.

          • Megan
            October 6, 2015 at 9:04 pm #

            Regardless of what happens, it is not your fault and you gave them a shot that they wouldn’t have had otherwise. Don’t beat yourself up. It’s out of your control. I will keep my fingers crossed though! The doubling time matters more than the number.

          • Chi
            October 6, 2015 at 10:27 pm #

            Yeah it’s hard not to feel bad, like I let her down somehow.

            Heard back from her earlier today. Second test has come back negative so I guess that’s that. She’s taking it exceptionally well actually. Said that she feels better for having given it a shot and failed than she would have if they hadn’t tried.

            I think I’m going to be sulking for the rest of the day though.

          • Mishimoo
            October 6, 2015 at 11:43 pm #

            So sorry things didn’t work out, that really sucks!

          • Chi
            October 6, 2015 at 11:49 pm #

            Yeah, but as she said, it’s no one’s fault, it just is.

            So we move on. Now I’m sending all my good vibes Demo’s way 🙂

          • Megan
            October 7, 2015 at 9:50 am #

            I’m sorry to hear that. A little sulking and chocolate just may be in order.

          • demodocus
            October 7, 2015 at 12:58 pm #

            So sorry to hear it.

          • Daleth
            October 7, 2015 at 10:09 am #

            Chi, thank you for being an egg donor–what a gift, regardless of the result. I just want to mention, for your friends, that there are cheaper options than what’s available in the States. There are two countries in Europe with world-class IVF clinics that offer egg donation: Spain and the Czech Republic. An egg donation cycle there costs on the order of $5000-$8000, versus $25k-$50k here in the US, and there are no waitlists–you could be doing your embryo transfer two or three months after you first contact them. Also, many Czech and Spanish clinics guarantee a minimum number of eggs and high-quality embryos (8 mature eggs and 2 high-quality blasts is a typical guarantee), with a free second cycle or your money back if that is not achieved. And FETs cost around $400 plus medications, versus $2500 and up (plus meds) in the US.

            Clinics sprang up in those two countries a decade or two ago because in many other countries either the wait list for egg donors is several years long or egg donation is illegal. So, women from Germany, Italy and Switzerland (DE illegal), the UK, France and Canada (years-long waitlists), etc. flock to Spain and the Czech Republic. And women from the US go there too, because the best-known clinics have success rates above the US average and the cost of treatment is orders of magnitude lower than it is here. In both countries donors are typically college students or young mothers. People who want a non-Caucasian egg donor would likely have better luck in Spain; the other big difference is that only married heterosexuals can get treatment in the Czech Republic (the clinics are very apologetic about that, but it’s the law there), while single moms and gay people can get treatment in Spain. In both countries, by law the donors must remain anonymous.

            If your friends are interested in considering this, there is a lot of info about Czech clinics on American websites like, and a lot of info about Spanish clinics on UK websites like

            Here’s are links to some well-known clinics:



            PS I have also heard of women getting donor-egg treatment in Greece. Mentioning that on the off chance your friend has some Greek heritage and might like that option.

          • demodocus
            October 7, 2015 at 12:57 pm #

            We will be donating our other embryos, too. Still have 6 in deep freeze. Don’t know how much the Cleveland Clinic charges for FETs with donor embryos, but we understand the deep longing.

          • Daleth
            October 7, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

            That’s really cool. My understanding is that clinics charge the same for an FET whether it’s with a donor embryo or not; it’s illegal to sell embryos, so they don’t charge for that. At most a recipient might be asked to pay the most recent year’s storage fees, so that the donating person or couple doesn’t have to pay for storage.

          • Chi
            October 7, 2015 at 6:05 pm #

            We’re in New Zealand. Not sure what the cost out of pocket here is for IVF.

          • Mishimoo
            October 7, 2015 at 6:39 pm #

            Probably around the same as the Spanish/Czech clinics, once currency conversion and flights/accommodation are taken into account (going by friend’s experiences over here in Aus). Still pretty expensive for most people.

          • Daleth
            October 8, 2015 at 9:28 am #

            No doubt about it, $6000-$10,000 is a lot. But it’s a lot cheaper than adoption, which costs $20,000-$40,000 per adoption (plus travel costs, if any) unless you are willing to adopt from foster care. Spending $6,000 or $10,000 or $20,000 (say you have to do it twice, plus an FET or two) to have the 2 or 3 kids you want is much, much more feasible for most people.

          • Daleth
            October 8, 2015 at 12:07 am #

            Oh, I think NZ is one of those places (like Australia, Canada, France…) where the waitlist for DE is years long because donors aren’t paid, so unless you have a generous friend or can find a very generous stranger you’re out of luck–which also means that there is little ability to screen donors so as to only use ones who are highly fertile, so in addition to long waits, the success rates are much lower. I’ve heard women from your end of the world often go to South Africa for DE–it’s closer to $10k than $6-7k, so a bit more expensive than Europe, but the difference in travel costs can make it come out even.

            Compared to the CR and Spain, South Africa has similar advantages (very short waits for donors, like 2-3 months; screening for high fertility in donors, thus high success rates). But there are far more black donors to choose from, obviously, and the laws on donor anonymity are less strict so patients have more of a hand in choosing their donors. In Spain and the CR, the doctors choose the donors–aspiring donors must meet health, age and fertility criteria, and those who do are then matched by the medical team to future moms based on “phenotype,” i.e., physical resemblance, and if possible on other factors such as interests, subjects of higher education degrees, etc.

            Here’s a link from a big South African DE clinic–this is the page where they talk about serving Australian and NZ patients:

          • Who?
            October 8, 2015 at 1:51 am #

            The efforts people go to to describe why it is outrageous, immoral etc to pay women to be egg donors, but totally fine to pay men to encourage them to be sperm donors, does my head in.

          • Daleth
            October 8, 2015 at 9:24 am #

            YES! Some people think anything that involves other women’s reproductive systems is their business and a proper subject for legislation. It is unbelievably patronizing: “women must be protected from exploitation,” which is code for “women aren’t capable of evaluating the pros and cons for themselves.”

            And in some countries, the patronizing attitude has led to laws prohibiting payments to egg donors–so the few women who do donate (and some kind souls do donate to strangers even when they’re not getting a dime) end up being exploited MORE, in that they go through a pretty arduous medical procedure and don’t get compensated for it. As someone who has gone through IVF myself, I can tell you it is much more arduous than most medical trials, yet I don’t hear anyone saying “we should prohibit drug companies, medical schools, etc. from paying people to participate in medical trials.”

            I also don’t hear anyone saying, for instance, “young men must be protected from exploitation–let’s ban universities from giving scholarships for football players, since football so often results in concussions or more serious injuries, and the scholarships practically coerce poor innocent young men to risk their health!” No one ever says that, even though playing college football for four years carries a higher risk of injury than donating eggs once or twice, and a lot more money is involved (free tuition vs. say $6000), making it that much harder for those poor innocent young men to make “a well thought out decision” (i.e., the decision I think they should make).

          • Theoneandonly
            October 8, 2015 at 4:47 pm #

            I think it’s around $15k – though I thought you got at least 2 if not 3 publicly funded cycles?

          • Amy M
            October 6, 2015 at 3:57 pm #

            Good luck—I did IVF too, and remember the very very long 2 week waits.

        • Azuran
          October 6, 2015 at 1:48 pm #

          Mine isn’t even conceived yet and I agree.
          But more seriously, hoping you’ll have positive news ^^

        • Megan
          October 6, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

          Oh, I do hope your suspicions are confirmed! Keep us posted!

        • YesYesNoNo
          October 6, 2015 at 3:03 pm #

          Good luck to you! ♡♥

        • October 6, 2015 at 5:30 pm #

          Fingers crossed!

        • Mishimoo
          October 6, 2015 at 7:06 pm #

          Best of luck!

        • Bombshellrisa
          October 8, 2015 at 1:03 am #

          Best of luck!

      • Bombshellrisa
        October 6, 2015 at 2:13 pm #

        You know, I wonder if part of the whole “earth side” talk is to disconnect themselves from that fact.

        • YesYesNoNo
          October 6, 2015 at 3:01 pm #

          That word “earth side” seriously irks me…

        • Megan
          October 6, 2015 at 3:17 pm #

          Yeah I’ve often wondered that too. It’s much easier to rationalize a baby who “never made it earthside” than an already alive on-this-earth baby who died.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 6, 2015 at 3:48 pm #

            I have said it before, but I will say it again: if my kids weren’t “earth side” while in my uterus, then who or what was jumping on my bladder and bouncing around on my cervix?

          • Megan
            October 6, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

            Alien imposters? Really bad gas? 🙂

          • Bugsy
            October 7, 2015 at 6:34 pm #

            My husband always referred to #1 when he was in utero as an alien vampire, both for the kicks and his ability to steal all of mommy’s nutrients for himself. 🙂

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 7, 2015 at 6:57 pm #

            I wish I could have liked this one twice : )

          • Tigger_the_Wing
            October 10, 2015 at 5:10 pm #

            I liked it for you. 🙂

            … And then I wanted to like it for myself. Hmmm…

    • Kelly
      October 6, 2015 at 2:03 pm #

      Don’t you just wish they would have the hiccups so that you know that they are still alive but don’t have to deal with all the pain of them rolling around? I felt the same though. For every time that I jumped in pain, I felt grateful that she was still alive. (Ok, honestly, not every time. She knew which nerves to hit to make me jump.)

      • Bugsy
        October 6, 2015 at 2:08 pm #

        Lol, yep until I feel the hiccups in my groin. Try as I might, I can’t get past how weird that one feels. 🙂

      • Megan
        October 6, 2015 at 3:02 pm #

        Yeah or the kicks in the cervix from my older daughter. I could’ve dealt with not having those. I was so thankful when she turned vertex and couldn’t do that anymore! It would literally stop me in my tracks.

        • Kelly
          October 6, 2015 at 8:56 pm #

          Somehow my children could still manage to hit the nerves in my cervix even when vertex. It felt like my third child was trying to find her way out through my leg and I would be kicking my leg randomly to try to get her to stop. It is some of the weirdest feelings I have ever had.

    • Azuran
      October 6, 2015 at 2:21 pm #

      There are indeed a portion of people who place their birth/comfort above their baby’s well being.
      But sadly, many parents who fell for the ‘homebirth’ hype actually do think that they are making the best and safest choice for their kids. They are being lied to my midwives and NCB groups.
      Pregnancy and childbirth are scary. Fear makes you vulnerable. So when someone comes over and tell you that you shouldn’t be worried, that birth is safe, that you can fully control the outcome of your birth, it’s only normal for some people without any medical knowledge to fall for it.
      It’s like those cancer patients who stop their chemo and switch to a 100% carrot diet because they were told by some holistic crap guy that it was a 110% guaranteed cancer cure. They were afraid and vulnerable and someone gave them the answer they wanted.

      • Hilary
        October 6, 2015 at 3:54 pm #

        I remember being up in the middle of the night, 7 months pregnant, reading all sorts of NCB crap and terrified out of my mind. OMG, is fetal monitoring going to sabotage my labor? Will I be held down and given an episiotomy against my will? Am I going to die from that Rhogam shot I already had? They make it sound like terrible, terrible things will happen to you if you go to a hospital. I know one person IRL who stopped all prenatal care and had a home birth because all that stuff exacerbated her anxiety disorder. It’s actually really cruel.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks
          October 6, 2015 at 4:19 pm #

          Yup. Ditto. I spent the first 6 weeks of DD’s pregnancy freaking out of my mind because I couldn’t get in to see the CNM practice I wanted and had to see an OB for my first tests and ultrasound. I KNEW this was going to kick off the Worst Thing Possible–Interventions Leading To A C-Section. Then I met the OB, and he was awesome, and I stuck with his practice. And, a while after having one, I realized that the c-section was not, in fact, the utter tragedy I’d been led to believe.

          • Hilary
            October 6, 2015 at 7:09 pm #

            The doula who taught the childbirth class that I took at the hospital skipped the entire part of the curriculum that was about c-sections. Her reasoning? “It’s too gruesome.” Also, she “hoped none of us would have to have one.” Some months after I had my c-section I watched a video of one on youtube – it’s pretty amazing.

          • Amazed
            October 8, 2015 at 4:23 am #

            A friend from the gym is due on 16th. Hasn’t read a single book on parenting theories. Read much about what doctors have to say about pregnancy. Had talks with her own doctor. The result: an elective C-section and attitude, like, “Well, I’m sure the baby will tell me what he wants! Why should I read the books and try to follow them faithfully when I’m pretty sure he hasn’t read them?” She’s a little scared of the forthcoming birth (first baby, the unknown and so on) but she doesn’t have the fears women who read nonstop and talk to experienced AP mothers seem to have. I never thought I’d say the word “overeducated” but it fits. Overmiseducated fits even better.

        • Bugsy
          October 6, 2015 at 6:55 pm #

          Yep – the same with the natural parenting. The more I read on it, the more terrified I became that every decision I made or anything I did in real life was going to ruin my child. I also have anxiety disorder, and the fear that stuff creates is utterly terrifying.

          • Megan
            October 6, 2015 at 9:11 pm #

            That was my experience with AP too. I still worry that I’ve damaged my daughter psychologically by letting her CIO for a few nights (after which she became the world’s greatest sleeper and is much happier and better rested, as am I). Thing is, I know logically I’ve done no lasting harm but I it’s so hard to shake that fear. Moms want so badly to do the best by their children that it makes them vulnerable to the AP scare tactics.

          • Hilary
            October 6, 2015 at 11:03 pm #

            None of the AP things worked out for us – NOT ONE. Birth bonding? I didn’t even see my son for 3 hours after he was born. Breastfeeding? Medical issues got in the way. Babywearing? He hated it. I hated it. Co-sleeping? Should be renamed No-sleeping. On the other hand, sleep training worked great!

          • Megan
            October 7, 2015 at 12:56 pm #

            We loved babywearing but everything else didn’t really work. We coslept for a while and it was great while DD was younger, but once she was able to move around she was very difficult to sleep with (and I think I kept her up too!). Breastfeeding was a no go for us too. At my best I made 8-9 oz a day. At this point though, I’m happy I finally stopped fighting my status as AP “failure.” No more pumping, good night’s sleep for everyone… Not sure what the downside is.

          • Hilary
            October 7, 2015 at 1:25 pm #

            I really wanted to like babywearing. It was OK for short periods, but my little guy would get fussy after 20 minutes, sometimes sooner. For whatever reason, he just preferred his stroller or his boppy lounger. It also exacerbated my back pain. I still like the idea. Obviously all of these things are great if they work for you, it’s the ideology that gives them false significance that I have a problem with.

          • Busbus
            October 8, 2015 at 9:48 pm #

            As a former AP-follower, it still makes me laugh to see how much my son loves the stroller. At age two, we don’t actually use it a lot – he usually just walks – but sometimes I pull it out when we’re going somewhere where I would like him to stay put, like the mall to try on some shirts or something. It makes him so happy to see the damn thing, he gets all excited and yells “stroller!!!” and wants to climb in himself. So much for the baby torture device the forums were taking about… 😉

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 10:13 pm #

            My son was cool with the Ergo until he could walk. Now he loves the stroller but he is even more excited to push it himself. It’s been the royal coach for my overstuffed purse on many occasions now, including today at the dog park.

          • Who?
            October 7, 2015 at 12:19 am #

            Part of the AP story-the unwritten part-is that the parents, especially mother, are martyrs to the child. So what if you’re exhausted, stressed or overwhelmed? If baby’s okay, you’re okay. If baby doesn’t like it, it means you aren’t doing it right.

            It is the most outrageous conceit to think that any one thing you do or don’t do in the course of being a parent will be permanently harmful or necessarily wonderful.

            And it is this conceit that is central to AP thinking. It’s like they see the child as a canvas for you to paint on: my parenting experience is that the best you can hope for is to model some positive behaviour and try to smooth the rough edges as best you can.

          • Hilary
            October 7, 2015 at 12:01 pm #

            “It is the most outrageous conceit to think that any one thing you do or
            don’t do in the course of being a parent will be permanently harmful”

            Short of obviously abusive things like burning your child with cigarettes on purpose or leaving them alone for 3 days while you do drugs with your friends. Anyone who cares enough about parenting to know what AP is is unlikely to do those things.

            Real attachment theory started out by looking at children in orphanages and foster care and abusive situations, who either didn’t have a primary attachment figure or the one they did have is severely lacking. It has nothing to do with CIO or having your child permanently attached to you. If anything, from what I understand of the research, a baby is more likely to form an insecure attachment to a mother who’s severely depressed/mentally unstable, which can be worsened by sleep deprivation from co-sleeping, refusing to use sleep training techniques, etc.

          • Who?
            October 7, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

            I think that’s right-I was going to talk about abuse but while I’m not so sure that the line is as clear as you suggest, abuse is an outlier.

            The other obvious outlier is the moment of inattention-we had three kids in this state suffer near drownings over a recent long weekend, and one run over by a backing vehicle, all at family holiday spots. I’m sure all the parents and carers involved were doing their best, but for whatever reason those kids met with those accidents. Bad things happen to good people every day, and parents can’t stop or fix all of them.

          • JJ
            October 7, 2015 at 3:30 am #

            My experience as well.

    • YesYesNoNo
      October 6, 2015 at 2:58 pm #

      I would not let a non-professional hair dresser cut my hair, no way would I let some lay person touch me let alone deliver my baby.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa
        October 6, 2015 at 4:33 pm #

        I would not let a non-professional hair dresser cut my hair,

        On the other hand, not only do I let an amateur cut my hair, I actually do it myself. I haven’t had a professional haircut in more than 20 years.

        Granted, given the dome I have, that’s not a big deal, and it’s not like my wife will let me cut her hair…

        • demodocus
          October 6, 2015 at 4:38 pm #

          I definitely do not allow my husband to cut my hair. …’course he’s blind…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            October 6, 2015 at 4:44 pm #

            He can cut mine.

          • Amazed
            October 6, 2015 at 5:13 pm #

            Dolls are clients who never object to the result of your cutting and highlighting efforts, someone told me. With real stuff, I mean, since her mom is a hairdresser. About fifteen years later, the daughter started winning awards in the hairdstyle department.

          • demodocus
            October 7, 2015 at 12:51 pm #

            livin’ on the edge, there, Bofa 😉

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            October 7, 2015 at 2:40 pm #

            Don’t worry, I was letting my kids cut mine when they were 2 yo. I had to touch up at the end, because the clipper vibrating made their hands tired.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            October 8, 2015 at 8:10 am #

            My kiddo styled my hair when she was about 3. It looked surprisingly good.

        • YesYesNoNo
          October 6, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

          If I could I’d cut and color my own. I have experimented and had some pretty bad results. Hair luckily grows back.

          • Mishimoo
            October 6, 2015 at 9:15 pm #

            I colour mine myself, but am starting to think the experience would be more pleasant if I went to a professional.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          October 8, 2015 at 5:34 am #

          I would (but don’t) cut my own hair or let my partner do so. OTOH, I wouldn’t let an unlicensed person who was holding themselves out as a “professional” do it. No telling what they’ll do. I know what sort of stupidity I’m likely to get up to, but the CPH (certified professional hairdresser) may be using black market dyes or not washing their equipment or otherwise be doing something unsafe.

      • Bombshellrisa
        October 6, 2015 at 6:04 pm #

        My hairdresser told me that they have to carry all this insurance for “just in case” and not being licensed will not win anyone a gofundme account or any talks of sisterhood. Apparently licensed hairdressers will not stand in solidarity with unlicensed ones. They also will refuse to do as clients wish if the outcome will be an adverse one,

        • YesYesNoNo
          October 6, 2015 at 6:49 pm #

          When I get my hair high lighted, it’s not the results my hair dresser cares about, it is the coloring experience. She doesn’t wear gloves when handling chemicals. When shampooing my hair, she submerges my entire head. I feel so empowered!

          • KarenJJ
            October 7, 2015 at 9:04 am #

            Plus nits are natural. In the past plenty of people ran around with headlice and were fine.

          • YesYesNoNo
            October 7, 2015 at 3:50 pm #

            Walking around with nis makes you a warrior!

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 2:08 pm #

            She turns the dryer up to the hottest setting too, doesn’t she? Because some people might get burns, but you know you won’t, after all, it’s just the hairdressers who don’t trust skin and insist on a lower setting that ruin your experience!

      • Bugsy
        October 6, 2015 at 6:57 pm #

        …or, as my dad keeps reminding me, “I never want someone w/ no experience as my airline pilot!”

    • jerusalemmom
      October 7, 2015 at 5:14 pm #

      That is exactly my thoughts and feelings, and I could never have forgiven myself if I went ahead with a hospital birth and knowingly put my baby in harm’s way. I have now had 5 healthy, perfect babies at home, and zero complications like my friends at the hospital. Go figure.

      • Who?
        October 7, 2015 at 6:15 pm #

        I’m glad you and your children have been so lucky. Not everyone who makes your choices is.

        • jerusalemmom
          October 8, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

          I know. It breaks my heart when babies die- in the hospital or at home. I’ve actually never been there for a death at a home birth, but yes for 3 deaths at the hospital L&D….

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            October 8, 2015 at 1:20 pm #

            The problem with “I’ve never seen” is that it begs the question of your experience. That’s why we do things like collect statistics, using properly defined criteria and controlled circumstances.

            Now, when we do that, we find that the babies born in homebirth in the US are somewhere in the 3 – 5 times more likely to die than those born in the hospital, and much, much more likely to have non-fatal bad outcomes (something like 17 times).

            So what you’ve personally seen or experienced doesn’t really matter in terms of what actually happens.

            I also have never known anyone to have a homebirth death, and I know of one who had a stillborn baby while under the care of a doctor. Then again, I don’t actually know anyone who has had a homebirth, but I know hundreds if not thousands of people who have had babies in the hospital. So my experience is pretty worthless, too.

          • Amazed
            October 8, 2015 at 2:57 pm #

            Awww., Bofa, she’s clearly a doula. She has HUGE experience and expertise with unnecessary C-sections.

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 9:59 pm #

            I’m not a doula. Too busy with these 5. If you are, good for you! I admire anyone who can be there for women at all hours of the day or night.

          • Amazed
            October 9, 2015 at 7:12 am #

            You aren’t a doula? Then what, pray tell, are you doing hanging constantly with women as they give birth? Scratching your birth high itch?

            Are you a babykiller or babykiller wannabe, aka CPM, then? Is the case of the doctor unwilling to do a C-section at a homebirth “midwife” whim one of your own cases?

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 8:57 pm #

            I agree with you about my personal experience and using “properly defined criteria”. The problem is, those stats are a bit off. And the home birth numbers really are quite low here in the US, but not overseas. I actually love this article- many of them are incendiary but this one is great for explaining both sides. Please read it, you’ll like the info.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 9:10 pm #

            Overseas, as in the UK and the Netherlands? Yes, home birth there is a lot different than in the US. The midwives are all the equivalent of US CNMs. Same with Australia and NZ. The problem is that while home birth there is attended by qualified professionals with clear risking out criteria and who can transfer patients without using the ER as a dump and run site, there is MUCH to be desired. For example UK midwives at Morcambre Bay have injured and killed babies, midwives caring for low risk women have higher rates of injury and death than the OBs who care for high risk women, there are hundreds of families involved in a movement to improve NZ midwifery care because there have been injuries and deaths with both mothers and babies there, Australia has seen unlicensed midwives preside over home birth deaths as well as licensed midwives who have let mothers bleed to death due to a hands off approach. Half of the problem is that home birth may be attended by a good midwife who doesn’t have the equipment that matters when things go wrong.

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 9:56 pm #

            Same with Canada- there are huge waiting lists for the midwives. Some friends waited 3 years to get pregnant, knowing they wanted a midwife not an OB. I was amazed to find the sites online filled with anger (like this one) towards moms who have had great experiences with home births. Why, if the majority have hospital births in America, why are mothers so afraid of letting women like me have a home birth? Or the anger with William and Kate for having midwives deliver their babies with OBs watching? That just doesn’t make sense to me. I have had these little ones the safest way I knew, and I am comfortable with that choice and their births. I have no birth trauma or any physical issues, and my births were attended by great midwives with emergency equipment….but we also did the things beforehand to have a healthy pregnancy and birth. I’m sure lots of my sisters here have done everything they could beforehand as well, and had hospital births that they were comfortable with.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 10:33 pm #

            Nobody here is going to say you don’t have the right to home birth, what I will say is that you need to be presented with the right statistics about the safety. No midwife, nurse or not, has a blood bank, OR, IV pitocin or a way to treat a severe laceration at home. No team to do CRP or give a second opinion. If you are bleeding out, the shots of pitocin and oxygen that the midwives carry won’t help you. If your baby is born in distress, there is no team to hand the baby off to that has the proper equipment to do a real resuscitation. I know many midwives who do a version of NRP, but it’s the basic kind that is also a staple in developing countries where equipment and trained medical staff are scarce. A few of us talked to the MANA Vice President about this last summer, she is a DO and teaches this type of NRP. She didn’t see anything wrong with midwives claiming to know NRP when what they are really doing isn’t the full deal that a NICU nurse would do in a hospital. After all, midwives don’t carry ventilators and PED masks and don’t have a way to check ABGs. I have doula’d at many births, I have caught babies in water at home and in birth centers. Many moms and babies do just fine. I have also been the one standing at the ER doors where the report from the paramedic includes acystole for 8 minutes and a team scrambles to do a crash section and then works furiously to save a perfect baby and it’s mother.

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 11:12 pm #

            I’m so sorry about the asystole! That would be awful! My dream would be no mother or baby lost, ever, but that isn’t realistic in either home or hospital setting. Had a friend who transferred to the hospital in southern Cali because the midwife knew the baby was in trouble. OB decided midwife was wrong, and had her do a trial of labor for 3 more hours- 3! Baby was dead by the time he agreed to a c/s. The midwife was so frustrated, but had no jurisdiction. OB came to the funeral to apologize and said he should have listened to the midwife. Very sad.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 11:42 pm #

            I can believe it, the hospital has to do an admission and blood work and determine if there is something wrong and what it is. They are not going to take action based on the word of a home birth midwife and not before a chart is reviewed. Who knows if there was a team that had to be called in and an OR available? I have never seen a home birth midwife apologize to a mother who was injured, to the family after a baby is injured or dies. Most don’t carry malpractice insurance, and the payout if they do isn’t enough to cover the lifetime care of an injured child.
            What stands out to me is that there is a whole guidebook written for midwives by midwives about how to avoid taking responsibility for bad outcomes and how to lie to clients

          • Who?
            October 9, 2015 at 12:08 am #

            Yup exactly.

            Wicked doctor not wanting to do a c/s on a midwife’s say-so: usually they are wicked for wanting to do a c/s at all.

            I’m assuming this is one of the three ‘dead at L&D’ stories-which turns out to be a ‘dead after belated transfer’ story.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 1:07 am #

            It’s typical though. There is a lot of talk about unnecessary c-sections but when there is one that should have been done, somehow whatever led up to the transfer isn’t important it’s that the OB didn’t step to it. A midwife transferring a mother whose baby was “in trouble”–how may decals, how many hours of labor and how far over due was mom? How many prior pregnancies and labors, how did those go? Was the mom older? Did she take any herbal remedies, use castor oil to induce? With a low risk woman who is in the care of a midwife, there is always a trail of evidence.

          • Who?
            October 9, 2015 at 1:24 am #

            Exactly-all ‘care’, no responsibility.

            Which makes sense, because the midwife can’t actually do anything useful.

            What possible good did she do on that day? Except lull the mother into a false sense of security, because she believed she had a responsible caregiver.

          • Charybdis
            October 13, 2015 at 10:45 pm #

            See, THIS is the thing I can’t seem to wrap my head around. If the NCB/homebirth/CPM crowd is SO dead set against anything medical (it’s an INTERVENTION cleverly disguised as “help”), then why, why, why do they bail for the hospital that’s “5 minutes away” when things go to hell? And then expect the hospital staff/OB unlucky enough to be on call that night to immediately hop to following their instructions/orders? Especially if they doesn’t keep/record any useful information in their notes.

            They s/hovel the woo do thick and deep that they are truly bewildered by a true medical professional who does not take their wisdom and advice or instructions seriously. And the people who fall for that sort of malarky, why do they seem just as bewildered that things took a bad turn? Have they not learned the life lesson that sometimes things don’t work out the way you want them to, no matter how much you want/wish/believe they are going to?

          • Anna
            October 9, 2015 at 5:11 am #

            You are as smug as ever. I believe your body is pretty good at giving birth (5 kids at home and no physical issues, you must be damn healthy!) but unfortunately your mind is not so good at analyzing facts and making logical conclusions. You are misled and ignorant and stuffing other women’s heads with rubbish. What’s worst of all, in years to come you will be putting the same rubbish into the heads of your daughters and daughters-in-law, giving them a false sense of security based on your lucky experience. And they may not have your strong genes.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 2:04 pm #

            It was awful. Both mother and baby passed away in separate hospitals days later. Completely avoidable too.

          • Who?
            October 8, 2015 at 11:44 pm #

            So anyone with a different view from yours is ‘angry’. Next you’ll be saying people are mean for pointing out that birth can be risky, dangerous and even in these days occasionally fatal.

            My children were both delivered by midwives in a major hospital in the UK, with OBs lingering nearby. So what? No one was angry with me. No one was angry at W&K either, but the grandstanding and big-noting the midwives and their cheer squad indulged in was very unprofessional.

            You’re lucky is all. Not superior, not more capable, not better prepared, not more knowledgeable. Just more lucky. How do you ‘prepare’ to avoid a pph? A major laceration?

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 2:03 pm #

            “How do you ‘prepare’ to avoid a pph? A major laceration?” Oh, you know! Stock up on cinnamon candy and practice keeping your legs together!

          • Sarah
            October 9, 2015 at 3:54 am #

            What anger with William and Kate?

          • Anna
            October 9, 2015 at 4:48 am #

            OK, you are the superior one. We are the ones with birth trauma and physical issues. And obviously it’s not just the lucky odds but the fact that you’ve done research and prepared and we have not. Relax.

          • demodocus
            October 9, 2015 at 9:15 am #

            A midwife delivered my baby with the ob standing 5 feet away. I didn’t ask for her and I didn’t expect her, but at that point my thought was “who’s this woman? eh, whatever.” A CNM in a hospital yards from a premier children’s hospital is a bit different than a person without a college education like the Duggars.
            I have no idea who actually delivered *my* child much less anyone else’s and I only care that the children are given the best chance of not dying while trying to be born.
            I read historical biographies. Ever notice how many people up until the last century or so, homebirths all, died in childbirth or shortly thereafter? It wasn’t all about the sanitation. I’m glad you and your kids are fine. Awesome for you. Eleanor of Aquitaine had 8 live births and continued to live into her seventies. Henry VIII’s mother died bringing her 8th child into the world, and the little girl died soon after.

          • Empliau
            October 9, 2015 at 9:11 pm #

            I thought Eleanor had 10 live births (Marie and Alix with Louis VII; William, Henry, Richard, Geoffrey, John, Matilda, Joanna, and Eleanor with Henry II.) William died young but all the others lived at least till young adulthood.

          • demodocus
            October 10, 2015 at 10:25 am #

            Oh, you’re right. I forgot about Louis’s daughters. William did die young, but I think he was a toddler by then.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 10:34 pm #

            Let’s not forget Empress Maria Teresa, mother of Marie Antoinette. She was the only female Habsburg ruler. She had 16 babies at home, all while ruling an empire. She worked all day before having Marie Antoinette in the evening, and I am pretty sure she wasn’t “threatened” with pitocin, an epidural or any other “evil” interventions. Anyone thinking having four babies at home is an accomplishment really isn’t familiar with history. ((I read Antonia Fraser’s biography of Marie Antoinette, and the part about working all day while in labor made me cringe)

          • Roadstergal
            October 13, 2015 at 12:41 pm #

            One of the reasons people Back Then had so many babies is that, without that ebul vaccination, their survival to adulthood was a crapshoot.

          • LeighW
            October 13, 2015 at 11:58 am #

            I’d like to know where your midwife buys her purses, since she can fit an entire NICU in one

          • Megan
            October 8, 2015 at 9:10 pm #

            Even MANA’s own data shows homebirth is much less safe for babies. You can only think their data shows otherwise if you’ve only read the conclusion of the study and not the data itself, like the author of your beloved article.

            If you are doing your “research” by reading opinion pieces like this and not reading actual scientific literature then you haven’t actually done research and you don’t know what you’re talking about. When you use your phony research to guide women, you put them and their babies at risk. If you really want to help women, learn how to interpret some statistics and do real research. No one here is going to take you seriously if that’s the kind of info you cite.

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 9:46 pm #

            Oh, that’s not research, that’s an article I like. Please do reciprocate and show me your stats and real research. Here’s a link to the stats from the CDC from 2012- you can start there, and dig deeper.

          • Megan
            October 8, 2015 at 10:06 pm #

            Your CDC data says nothing about homebirth other than the number of women choosing it. It says nothing about the safety of homebirth.

            Anyway, here are some links. “You can start here, then dig deeper.”

            MANA study:

            Study on higher risk of homebirth:

            Feel free to cite whatever data you have that shows that homebirth in the US is safe.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 10:37 pm #

            Here are the links in one place

          • jerusalemmom
            October 8, 2015 at 11:00 pm #

            I’ve read those other two- they have issues, both pro and con. The CDC data does have info on the safety of home vs. hospital in the US. And this-

            Ackermann-Liebrich U, Voegeli T, Gunter-Witt K, Kunz I, Zullig M, Schindler C, et al. Home versus hospital deliveries: follow up study of matched pairs for procedures and outcome. Zurich Study Team. BMJ 1996;313:1313–8.

            Also this- “Studies examining women’s birth attitudes and reasons for choosing a particular place to deliver have found differences in women who chose to deliver at home compared with women who chose to deliver in a birth centre. Researchers (Cunningham, 1993; Ackermann-Liebrich et al., 1996; Longworth et al., 2001) have found that women delivering at home were older, more educated, more feminist, and more willing to accept responsibility for their health; these women were also found to have greater self determination, greater desire to influence and determine the birth themselves, and sought greater intimacy in the birth setting than women delivering in the hospital. The above mentioned studies, however, were conducted in countries in which home birth is considered an ‘alternative’ method of birthing; this could explain why women who are more educated and value making their own choices and decisions are more likely to be in the home-birth group. ”

            And the more recent stats-

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 11:48 pm #

            So what that needs to really say is these were white, middle and upper middle class women in good health, who have always had access to basic healthcare. Being a woman of color, living in poverty and not having access to basic healthcare all along are all things that raise risk factors. Not to mention that most women who choose home birth are paying out of pocket, not usually an option for poor women.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 10:11 pm #

            Here is Judith Rooks CNM analysis of risk associated with planned out of hospital birth with a midwife. Ms Rooks is very friendly to home birth, yet her conclusion based on the data was the mortality rate of home birth with a midwife is 6-8 times higher than in a hospital. Keep in mind that non nurse midwives care for low risk women only-no GD, no pre existing health conditions, no VBAC, no histories of c-section, preeclampsia or PPH.

          • demodocus
            October 8, 2015 at 2:50 pm #

            I’ve never known personally known anyone at all who lost a child in the neonatal period, whether in hospital or at home. I’ve also never met a blind toddler, ‘though I believe my in-laws when they say my husband was one.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 9, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

            I have seen two term babies (not counting home birth transfers) still born in L&D: one due to GBS and the other because of cord compression. Both babies had passed some time before, both women noticed lack of movement and came into triage.

      • Bugsy
        October 7, 2015 at 6:30 pm #

        I’m glad they worked out well for you.

        • jerusalemmom
          October 8, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

          Thank you. Me too. Every baby is precious.

          • Megan
            October 8, 2015 at 3:16 pm #

            So precious that their moms deserve to know what the scientific evidence says about the risks of homebirth in the US.

      • Bombshellrisa
        October 7, 2015 at 6:56 pm #

        There are plenty of women here who have had home births and nothing happened. Some have children who are injured, still others will always miss the child they lost who should have lived. It’s awesome that nothing happened to your babies, that nothing happened to you. It’s telling that you had to come here and post your smug response.

        • jerusalemmom
          October 8, 2015 at 12:36 pm #

          I’m sorry you feel that way. I wasn’t trying to be smug.

          • Fallow
            October 8, 2015 at 1:01 pm #

            If you were not trying to be smug, you could have fooled me. You put anothe nail in the coffin with the king of all smug non-apologies, “I’m sorry you feel that way.”

          • Anna
            October 8, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            You were just lucky. There’s no merit of yours in this. You are not better than other women because of it. You put your babies at risk but you were lucky. That’s it.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 3:51 pm #

            Oh sure you were. Commenting on a blog that is written by an OB/GYN on a specific post highlighting the risk involved with choosing home birth. After all, you got enlightened by a child birth educator.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        October 8, 2015 at 5:29 am #

        What complications are you afraid of? What makes you think that they are being caused by the hospital? What would you have done if you had had a complication at home?

        • jerusalemmom
          October 8, 2015 at 12:33 pm #

          I wasn’t afraid. That’s the point. Fear-based births at home or hospital are not good. I’ve been there for moms at the hospital time and time again when they are told “baby is too big, your pelvis is too small” or “baby’s heart rate is dropping and it’s dangerous” (of course after hours of epidurals and pitocin) or “we just saved your life and your baby’s life, you should be grateful! had you had that baby at home, you would have both died!” (uh huh, right) or “baby is a preemie, but we still need to do shots, heal pricks, eye drops, a bath, DON’T touch her she needs to be in the box” etc. It’s hard for me to support mama but listen to that! It’s not evidence-based science or care, it’s just 30 years of rules that haven’t been updated, and it does harm both the mom and the baby. What about skin to skin? Or breastmilk? Or waiting on the vaccines until baby is older and healthier? How about circumcision? With my first I didn’t know any better, and I spent 7 months at the hospital with my questions ignored and shuffled through the assembly line in 5 minutes flat. I confided in a birth class instructor, and she asked, “have you heard of midwives”? I hadn’t. I then began to research, and chose a great, professional team, had him at home in a wonderful, easy, non-stressful environment, and I never looked back. All the rest were also born with midwives, in different states. I should say here that it takes a lot of research to find experts that you are comfortable with. Not every home birth midwife is great- this last state we moved to was a bit of a challenge to find a real midwife. I tried about 15 different ones, and most were CNMs and didn’t have the training to actually deliver babies. Finally found a great midwife who knew what she was doing. This not bragging, and I SO wish every woman had that opportunity to give birth to healthy babies the way they know is safe!

          • AllieFoyle
            October 8, 2015 at 1:39 pm #

            they are told “baby is too big, your pelvis is too small” or “baby’s heart rate is dropping and it’s dangerous”

            So, what, they were lying?

            Do you not think that bad things can happen no matter where someone is giving birth?

          • Elizabeth A
            October 8, 2015 at 1:43 pm #

            My preemie needed to be in the box. I could tell because every time I touched her, her respiratory and heart rates skyrocketed, because she was yellow with jaundice (they were out of bili blankets for the moment) and because the breathing apparatus was complicated and cumbersome.

            Kangaroo care/skin to skin is good for babies *once they are stable*.

          • Megan
            October 8, 2015 at 2:18 pm #

            The way I “know is safe” is in a hospital, with a doctor, where studies show my baby is at least 4 times less likely to die than at home. I’m sure you’ll wish that for me then, right?

          • anotheramy
            October 10, 2015 at 9:18 am #

            That’s the funny (bizarre) thing about many homebirth and NCB I’ve met online and IRL, if someone claims the data shows that homebirth is unsafe, they’ll argue tooth & nail, cite “studies” and “statistics”, etc, but if a mom says “I know I’d FEEL safer in a hospital”, they’re like, “oh, ok then. Then that’s the best choice for you.” … the perception of safety seems to be more important than actual safety.

          • Nick Sanders
            October 8, 2015 at 2:35 pm #

            “baby is too big, your pelvis is too small” or “baby’s heart rate is dropping and it’s dangerous” (of course after hours of epidurals and pitocin) or “we just saved your life and your baby’s life, you should be grateful! had you had that baby at home, you would have both died!” (uh huh, right) or “baby is a preemie, but we still need to do shots, heal pricks, eye drops, a bath, DON’T touch her she needs to be in the box” etc.

            How dare those doctors do their jobs! The nerve!

            What about skin to skin? Or breastmilk? Or waiting on the vaccines until baby is older and healthier?

            What about them?

            I then began to research

            Let me stop you right there, Google is not research. Leaflets, seminars, classes, none of that is research.

            most were CNMs and didn’t have the training to actually deliver babies


          • Who?
            October 8, 2015 at 5:41 pm #

            I guess it all depends whether you see your role as ‘supporting mama’ or providing high quality care to get the best result for the family. If ‘mama’ wants a particular experience, understands the extreme risk she is taking, and doesn’t mind too much about outcome, then I guess home birth is a fair option.

            Many people will put themselves at risk to ensure the healthy delivery of their baby-it takes an unusually self absorbed person to put their baby at risk to ensure an experience.

            You’ve been really lucky, which is great. How many of your homebirth ‘mamas’ end up transferred to hospital? How many of the three L&D deliveries you have been present for where a baby died were homebirth transfers?

          • Charybdis
            October 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm #

            Umm…CNM’s do actually “have the training” to deliver babies. They are RNs and have real medical training, hospital admitting privileges, can prescribe medications and have legitimate OB backups. They also do *not* do home births. They deliver in medical settings (hospitals, birth centers attached to L&D wings/floors) and will transfer a woman who risks out, willingly and quickly, They also have medical equipment, extra medical personnel, OR’s, NICU’s medications, etc at their disposal as well as a willingness to USE it when it is required.

            So, somehow all these plusses/advantages render CNM’s unfit to *really* deliver a baby?

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 8, 2015 at 6:27 pm #

            You know what wins a lot of women over? The fact that CPMs are self proclaimed “experts in normal birth”. This seems like they are experts who assure you a normal birth with the methods and treatments they use, instead of what it really means. Being an expert in “normal” doesn’t really work in the real world, we hire experts precisely because they know when there is a problem and they know how to fix it with the appropriate intervention.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            October 9, 2015 at 3:20 am #

            I don’t want an “expert in normal birth”. Hell, if birth goes “normally” (uncomplicated vaginal delivery) then you don’t even need a midwife, anyone can catch the baby, right? The problem is that you can’t know who is going to have a “normal” birth, all you can do is estimate the risk and try to keep the odds in your favour. So I want someone who’s an expert in abnormal birth there when I have any future babies, someone who can intervene if something goes wrong.

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 10, 2015 at 2:17 am #

            I liked the OB who delivered my son, he was a hospitalist OB who had “lost count” of how many babies he had delivered. He had seen everything and so had the nurses (they worked in a hospital that sees a baby born on average every 49 minutes and had the best NICU in the city). They are experts in interventions done quickly and I will be grateful to them forever for monitoring me and the baby so we didn’t need anything major.

          • the wingless one
            October 8, 2015 at 8:42 pm #

            Well, my son would have died if I had your attitude. He would have slowly suffocated in my womb and instead, thanks to my highly medicalized pregnancy, he is a healthy, happy, smart almost-three year old.

            My son was in the NICU and you have no clue what you’re talking about. The NICU staff were AMAZING. From the doctors and nurses on down to the cleaning staff, they were competent, compassionate and genuinely cared about how to get my son well and back home where he belonged. It literally makes me sick when people like you try to insinuate that they do not care about doing what’s best for babies – you couldn’t be more wrong. Yes it was a stressful environment, watching your son fight for his life is stressful. The NICU staff did everything they could to lessen that stress, and it made me feel so much better when I had to go home every night to know that he was being watched over by such wonderful nurses. They encouraged skin to skin, they encouraged breastmilk when at all possible, My son had DIC at one point during his stay so he absolutely was not recommended to be circumcised.

            I SO wish every woman had the luxury of pretending nothing ever goes wrong in pregnancy, even “low-risk” pregnancy, but not if it means that babies that could live will die. Women shouldn’t bury their heads in the sand and imagine that “not being afraid” will save their babies should complications occur in pregnancy or delivery.

          • yugaya
            October 9, 2015 at 3:10 am #

            “It’s not evidence-based science or care” Seriously? You can just think yourself to be qualified to make those clinical judgements about current standard protocols of care better than the people who are actually qualified and required to treat other human beings according to these standards of care? Your layperson’s job of “supporting mamas” gives you that level of expertise?

            These people are unbelievable in their audacity.

          • Angharad
            October 10, 2015 at 10:33 am #

            I had no fear during my pregnancy because honestly it was the healthiest I’ve ever been (I ate better, exercised more, drank more water, and my blood pressure was lower and my iron was better). Then suddenly my blood pressure was 155/90 and my urine was full of protein at my 39-week check. To the hospital to be induced! I was confident I was getting good care and that everything would be ok. No fear there. And then suddenly during pushing my daughter’s heart rate was in the 80s. She was delivered less than 5 minutes later and she was completely purple from head to toe.
            Since I had no fear until after the complications arose, why do you think I still developed preeclampsia and that her heart rate still dropped? Do you think my complications would have been prevented if I hadn’t been monitored? Do you honestly believe her heart rate was just fine during 11 hours of pitocin and then suddenly couldn’t stand it, instead of it being related to cord compression during pushing?
            I’ll admit I don’t know what would have happened if I had delivered at home. I was full-term so maybe I would have gone into labor soon anyway, before the preeclampsia developed into full-on eclampsia. Her heart rate only started having problems after I had been pushing for a while. Maybe I would have gotten her out before she sustained irreversible brain damage. Maybe I would have been lucky even without monitoring and appropriate interventions. But maybe not. And it certainly wouldn’t have been BECAUSE I didn’t have medical care.
            I think your perception of cause and effect needs some work.

          • Azuran
            October 10, 2015 at 11:12 am #

            It reminds me of those client who are so proud to tell me that their dog is super healthy, so healthy in fact, that it never needed to see a vet in it’s life.
            And then they show me an obese 8 years old poodle with mammary cancer, a dozen other skin tumors and rotten teeth in respiratory distress from terminal cardiac disease.
            Then they kinda get mad at me for ‘making’ their dog sick.
            Not going to the doctor is not going to make you healthier. You just won’t know that you are sick until it’s too late to do anything.

          • Box of Salt
            October 10, 2015 at 2:47 pm #

            jerusalemom ” Or waiting on the vaccines until baby is older and healthier?”

            Or do you mean waiting on the vaccines until after the baby has died of pertussis? Vaccines are scheduled to protect children when they are most vulnerable. Waiting until you think they are healthier is counterintuitive, and defeats the purpose.

          • Roadstergal
            October 13, 2015 at 12:29 pm #

            If you wait until you’re 80 to have all your vaccines, you’ll be super-healthy and will really take them well.

          • Tigger_the_Wing
            October 10, 2015 at 5:21 pm #

            I wasn’t remotely afraid either. My mother had all of us at home.

            But if I hadn’t had all of mine in hospital… well, let’s say that without modern scientific medicine and modern hospital care (modern for the eighties and nineties, that is) I wouldn’t have five, healthy adult children and six healthy grandchildren.

            Oh, and I’d be dead, too.

      • Megan
        October 8, 2015 at 8:35 am #

        Sounds like that time my husband drove us home from a party drunk. We were fine too. Guess we should do it more often.

    • Bombshellrisa
      October 7, 2015 at 6:53 pm #

      I did like the idea of you delivering in a hospital in N Van, but only so I could live vicariously through you when someone was kind enough to get you something at Savory Island Pie Company : )
      But seriously, getting that baby safely out of your uterus and into your arms is the most important thing.

      • Bugsy
        October 8, 2015 at 10:31 am #

        Hehe…Still hoping that RGH comes through with a space for me. 🙂 Fingers crossed!

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