Suffer the unvaccinated little children!

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There is so much suffering in the world, and sadly, so much of it falls on small children … victims of earthquakes, famines, genocide and war.

But the suffering that angers me the most is that visited on small children by the selfishness of their parents. Such suffering comes in many different forms but can ultimately be traced back to the narcissism of mothers and fathers who think that fulfilling their own needs — whether that is a need to vent their anger, exercise their fists or bolster their fragile self esteem — is more important than meeting the needs of the children who depend on them for everything.

He was genuinely terrified each and every time he woke from sleep without breath.

Case in point:

Heather Dexter proudly boasts about the medical neglect of her children on Like Minded Mamas. Not only is she unrepentant about the horror that she visited on them, she proud of it!

Like Minded Mamas

What happened?

It’s been a year. Mid-October 2014 was a game changer for three tiny immune systems.

My oldest, Madilyn at this time was 6.5 years old…

Lucien, my second, … is the best hugger and sweetest cuddler that I know…

Emilia, my youngest, at this time was 9 months old. Millie, as we affectionately call her, was just beginning to gain her personality and figure out who she is as a little person…

How did Heather “change the game” for her children’s immune systems? Not by gently creating immunity to pertussis (whooping cough) with a vaccine. No, no vaccines for Heather’s kids. She wanted only natural immunity for them, so she let them get deathly ill with whooping cough.

The totally avoidable horror and suffering went on for more than 6 months!!

You can read the details in the link webcache of the post. I’ll just hit the highlights:

During the night, Lucien would cough until he barfed up mucus, proceeded by crying and screaming fits. He was genuinely terrified each and every time he woke from sleep without breath. At this point in time my husband, and I were now waking every 30-90 minutes through the night to clean up after or console one of two coughing, puking, screaming children…

And:

Madilyn had been coughing for 60+ days. We hadn’t slept longer than 2 hours in months. UGGGGGH. Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms. How I just wanted to sleep for six hours straight for just one night, it would have been miraculous. The term “walking dead” described the new me.

Her husband feared the children were going to die:

It was during this time, the first week in December that my husband, Scott, sat me down, looked me in the eyes and said, “I trust you, but I am scared that one of our kids is going to die. You know it is just a matter of time before Millie develops whatever it is that Madilyn and Lucien have. She’s only 9 months old. It’s going to be bad, Heather. (my emphasis)

Heather could have alleviated her children’s suffering AT ANY TIME during these 6 months. All she had to do was to take them to a real doctor and get antibiotics. But, no, Heather’s self-image was on the line and it was all about Heather all the time.

Part of me felt blind-sided and hurt, unsupported and ready to blow…that was the exhausted me… However, I have learned that my truth does not belong to all of humanity. Each person is entitled to their beliefs and logic or training.

… I do believe their immune systems were built to handle this… They just haven’t been a whole lotta sick in their lives, babe! This is their time to gain immune stimulation.”

Heather relied on her “degree” from Google University:

Was I doing this to prove a point? What do my kids gain from true immunity? Why was I sooooooo opposed to putting them on antibiotics? This in itself is an entire new blog, but let me just give you some links to why antibiotics should be limited and not passed out like candy …

Ok…so hopefully if you found yourself saying, “What is she thinking?” … You’ve taken the time to watch or read some of the above listed links.

Heather’s father tried to reason with her and he hit the nail on the head:

During this time, however, I received a very stern “talking to” from my father. He’s a veterinarian and has been for just shy of 40 years. While holding Emilia, he said to me, “Heather, there is a time and place for every thing and the time to go get an antibiotic is now. It may be that your pride has got you confused… I would hate to see you make a poor choice with your children at the[ir] expense.”

But Heather’s pride was more important than her children’s suffering.

HOLY SHIT… What? Did he honestly believe I was sitting there doing nothing? Couldn’t he see I was taking all the care in the world trying to make this work and heal them naturally? My heart broke. Tears streamed down my face…

I called my mentor and the founder of my Naturopathy school to gain yet another naturopathic perspective. She had nothing but good things to say. She once again boosted my morale. It was all I needed to hold strong over the holiday season.

Now the baby got sick:

By mid-January, Madilyn was doing great. Lucien was turning the corner, for the better. He was now only coughing moderately throughout the day and waking only a couple times a night. But Emilia’s breathing had now reached the scary point. She was now coughing until she puked, often times turning purple in the process. This was followed by crying, which would cause the process to repeat itself until often times she would just fall asleep due to pure exhaustion.

Ultimately, everyone recovered so Heather could return to patting herself on the back fulltime.

Look at how she had suffered to “protect” her children:

It took a good 120-150 days from the start of the coughing for each of them to eliminate the bronchial damage and lung weakness caused by the bacterial infection, Pertussis. We spent hundreds of dollars on natural health products and consultations with various Naturopathic Professionals. It was a living HELL. Every day. It had an intense effect on my marriage and relationship with my husband. It caused me to question everything I knew about Natural Health.

Heather was indeed the hero of her own story:

We made it through using only natural remedies. Seeking no medical attention. We did it. My children developed REAL and TRUE immunity from being exposed to this bacteria and fighting it off naturally. It has been my biggest challenge to date as a mother. This mother conquered. (my emphasis)

And just in case you hadn’t already reached the obvious conclusion that Heather is an idiot, she offered this to make it crystal clear:

I just want you to ask yourself… How did people make it through for thousands of years? How did they get through the Spanish Influenza, the Black Plague, fevers and other ailments?

Made it through?

More people died of the Spanish flu than died in WWI. Two-thirds of the population did NOT make it through the Black Death. Both were holocausts that took the lives of tens of millions.

Heather was so proud of herself, but then it turned out that the rest of the world was not nearly so impressed. They considered what she had done to be child abuse, and it was a form of child abuse known as medical neglect.

Heather and colleagues shut down their blog and Facebook page and sent out this message to their supporters.

Just in case you thought anti-vax was about anything other than mothers’ ego, they set us straight:

Recently, we shared a heart-felt story with you on Heather’s journey to healing her kiddos whooping cough naturally. We know and trust that all of our experiences are lessons. And the whole premise of this blog is to share these hard lessons, these times in stormy weather, with you dear reader. It wasn’t easy for Heather to write that post, but she did grounded in hope that it would empower you in times of similar situations.

Immediately, we received an outpour of support and love. Readers thanked us for being so transparent and honoring a mother’s intuition and our beautiful immune systems. This story without a doubt touched the hearts of many…

Then last week, the story found itself in the hands of those who are out to destruct. Threat after threat has made its way into this window of our lives. While we are aware that this is all part of the territory of speaking our truths, our system wasn’t ready to withstand the ambush of attacks.

Heather and her buddies have learned nothing!

One thing is for sure. We know that our voice is needed now more than ever. In fact, this experience has shown us that we need to be even louder.

The sad truth is that Heather could have spared her children MONTHS OF AGONY. If she had immunized her children against whooping cough the odds are very high that they wouldn’t have got whooping cough in the first place. Heather could have shortened the MONTHS OF AGONY. She could have let real medical professionals treat them with antibiotics. But no, Heather forced them to cough until they vomited and screamed, forced them to endure lung damage that may be permanent, and for what? For “natural immunity.” And how does this benefit Madilyn, Lucien and Millie. Heather never tells us.

But it did bolster Heather’s self-esteem and what’s 6 months of 3 small children coughing, vomiting, and screaming compared to that?

  • Dr Kitty

    On world AIDS day, Hoter, how do you feel about HIV?

    Is there a retrovirus transmitted in body fluids which leads to CD4 depletion, immunodeficiency and death from infection or cancer? Or is HIV/AIDS something else entirely?

    Is this retrovirus kept in check by antiretroviral medication, to the point where it becomes undetectable in body fluids?

    Are antiretroviral medications the reason why people with HIV can now live normal lifespans and never develop AIDS?

    Come on, bring the crazy, explain how Western Medicine has got HIV/AIDS all wrong, and the massive fall in AIDS related deaths is due to lifestyle changes and better diet, or better yet that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS at all, I dare you.

    • Roadstergal

      Oh, I’m sure Hotor is a big fan of Christine Maggoire, Peter Duesberg, Mattias Rath, and Thabo Mbeki.

    • Hoter

      Considering we all know HIV and AIDS related syndromes are all to do with lifestyle and diet you have answered your own question.

      • Nick Sanders

        It’s why all those AIDS denialists who cleaned up their lifestyles and refused antiretrovirals outlived all their peers who took them. Oh, wait…

  • Hoter

    You need to balance this with all the atopic kids and their parents coping with steroids, inhalers and epi pens. Their madness is doctor sanctioned, that little patch of eczema that the cream pushed them down the atopic highway to hell.

    • Dr Kitty

      ???
      Could you reframe that into something coherent please?
      You know emollients are first line for eczema, not steroids. I don’t much care if you use raw organic coconut oil or the lotion of your choice as long as you use it liberally and often.
      Atopy is largely genetic.

      • Azuran

        Oh, so that’s how it work. You first get vaccinated. Then you get eczema. The evil doctor then prescribes some cream. Putting in on will give you allergy, so they then prescribe you cortisone or inhaler and before you know it you become severely allergic to everything and needs an epipen. which, of course, causes autism!!!

        • Hoter

          Well, sarcasm has got you and epiphany, well done, just in time for xmas

          • Azuran

            Oh so you also actually believe vaccine cause autism? Wow. Really, that’s so original.

      • Hoter

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110651/
        C section babies are 30% more likely to be atopic. That sort of blows your medical anecdote about eczema being genetic out of the water. By suppressing the skin presentation you are pushing the metabolite into the viscera, that is the atopic pathway dunce.

  • carbonUnit

    Dexter has gotten herself on TV as a “naturopathic doctor”. Although this story seems benign (other than giving credibility to naturopaths), I’m concerned that the pregnant reporter has bought into mommy doc/natural woo. Interesting that a Grand Rapids naturopath caught the attention of a reporter in Indianapolis.
    http://cbs4indy.com/2015/09/23/making-your-own-baby-food-what-the-heck-is-involved/

    • Katia

      Oh, gag me!

      Heather was all over the internet. A reporter looking for confirmation bias would jump at the chance. After all, immunizations are distasteful. I mean who likes seeing kids get them? Not the child, not the parents, not the nurse who has to give them.

      • Daleth

        Someone needs to send that reporter a link to what Dexter wrote, and this post.

        • Katia

          She probably won’t care. Anything to avoid vaccines!

          • carbonUnit

            She’s probably bought in, but maybe this will be the bucket of cold water that snaps her out of it. Though unlikely, the best case scenario would be for her to become outraged and do some more reporting on Heather Dexter.

        • carbonUnit

          The news department management needs to know too, so they reign in reporters that might promote quacks/quackery in the future, especially the dangerous ones. There’s a news department e-mail address on this page: http://cbs4indy.com/contact/ It would probably be good if more than one of us contacts them. 😉 Presumably there are social media orifices that could be hit too.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Yeah, you gotta figure. Someone who has the audacity to advertise a “Guide to Stay Healthy All Year Long” and “Keep Your Family From Getting Sick” who’s kids had almost 6 months of whooping cough? I mean, the irony writes itself…

          • Hoter

            You wanna see sick. Go to a doctor’s waiting room and hang lose for the day. These are people who get meds for everything.

          • Wren

            You mean people who are sick go to the doctor? No way!

          • Roadstergal

            Even worse, some take meds to get better.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Not to mention what a pregnant reporter could pick up hanging around Dexter and her unvaccinated kids. What if one of them is now developing “natural immunity” to rubella? Sending a pregnant woman to report on a woo meister seems to me about as sensible as sending a woman to report on the Taliban: Just not safe for her.

      • carbonUnit

        The worst thing she could pick up and spread is a set of dangerous beliefs.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          You’re right in the long run, but her organization also sent her into immediate physical danger. If she picks up rubella or a couple of other vaccine preventable conditions her fetus could take teratogenic damage. Why would her employer send her there or even let her go there? Lawsuit city if something happens!

          • carbonUnit

            Yes, Nichole Pence interviewing Heather could be like taking your kids into a wild dog enclosure. Without having seen her other stories, I suspect the reporter has naturalistic leanings and selected Heather. If there’s damage, Pence did this to herself. I do hope someone manages to contact her. She does have contact info on her page, but it’s all social media and I have no SM accounts. Her web page loads as a blank page on my browser – she’s either used fancy crap I have disabled or is just stupid…

          • Hoter

            Wow, you are so paranoid, where on earth did you get these ideas?

          • carbonUnit

            You might be right after all. The news director, Kerri Cavanaugh, is from Grand Rapids. Also anchor Tim Doty. They could be the ones who put her onto WooBabe Dexter. Or not…

          • Hoter

            That is septic vaccine paranoia. If she is health, there is no risk. Who told you otherwise?

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Oh really! tell that to actress Gene Tierney she was volunteering at the Stage Door Canteen in 1943 while pregnant, when a fan with German measles, who had broken quarantine, insisted on meeting her. She contracted German measles and her daughter was born deaf and severely mentally disabled. Rubella is known to be especially dangerous for a fetus in utero.

          • Azuran

            So, being healthy prevents everything? Do you actually really know ANYONE who has never been sick even once before? You never had a runny nose? Never got a cold? Never had a fever? Never threw up? never had diarrhea? Never had a rash anywhere? Never had otitis? Sore throat? Pink eye?

            Sure, being healthy helps. It will help you fight the infection, it will lower your risk of developing complications, but it’s not a magical cure. Healthy people can still die from diseases. Healthy pregnant mothers can still have miscarriage or severely disabled baby if they are infected by some diseases, even if they only develop light symptoms.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I’m really trying to figure out how that’s supposed to work myself.

            How did my great-great grandparents’ first child die from Black Small Pox at only a few weeks old when this child was exclusively breastfed, her mother didn’t ingest GMOs, no one in the family had ever been vaccinated, and to top it off neither parent smoked, never drank (no risk of prenatal alcohol exposure at any time), and since at least the mid 1800s nearly every family members’ diet consisted mostly of cereal grains, lots of fruits and vegetables, potatoes that were limited by what stayed good in the root cella during winter, and small portions of meat as directed by the religion they followed?

            Along with that, how did this child’s mother die of cancer in only her mid-forties despite the above stated lifestyle choices and being extremely physically active her entire life?

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            My younger sister is vegan, eats gluten free, doesn’t drink and doesn’t smoke. Her diet would be considered by most to be far healthier than mine. She probably does slightly more exercise than me. She has had the same childhood vaccines as me but hasn’t had vaccines against hep B, hep A and typhoid whereas I have. And yet she still gets several more viral URTIs per year than I do and is being investigated for possible psoriatic arthritis which I don’t have.

            But according to Hoter, all disease is caused by poor diet and lifestyle.

        • Roadstergal

          “The only thing more dangerous than an idea is a belief. And by ‘dangerous,’ I don’t mean ‘thought-provoking,’ I mean ‘might get people killed’.” -Sarah Vowell, The Wordy Shipmates

          (Although, after noting the diseases brought by Europeans (all VPD) that utterly demolished the native populations of the Americas, she reconsiders – “Maybe the most dangerous thing is a germ.”)

          • carbonUnit

            We have a twofer here. The dangerous idea helps spread the dangerous germ.

          • Hoter

            The Indians adopted the lifestyles, alcohol, shit food and more.

          • Roadstergal

            Come on, this guy _has_ to be a Poe.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Smallpox was caused by alcohol and poor diet? Must be why it’s still running rampant!

          • Roadstergal

            With all of the pies, buttered mashed potatoes, chocolate, and alcohol I consumed over Thanksgiving, I actually got smallpox. But I’ve been eating lean since then, and it cleared right up.

          • Chant de la Mer

            Excuse me but Indians refers to the people that live on the subcontinent India. Please use the correct nomenclature when referring to Native American/Alaskans in the USA.

        • Hoter

          What, like there is no ‘cure’ for arthritis?

      • Hoter

        Bout as sensible as sending an arthritic person to a doctor for VIOXX
        http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

        Accept the pregnant reporter didn’t get ill, the chances were virtually nil. But VIOXX was a ‘dead’ cert for the box for the 500,000 Americans who died taking it, on advice from their regular doctor. Do they feel no shame?

        • Andrew Lazarus

          LOL, the chances of getting rubella are virtually nil because almost everyone vaccinated against it. Makes life easier for the free-riders.

          The last rubella epidemic in the USA caused more deformed babies born than thalidomide worldwide.

          • Reality022

            North and South America have been declared rubella free since April 2015, no thanks to the anti-vaccine cultitsts:

            paho(dot)org/us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135%3Aamericas-region-free-of-rubella&lang=en
            “Americas region is declared the world’s first to eliminate rubella

            Historic achievement follows similar “firsts” against smallpox in 1971 and polio in 1994

            Washington, D.C., 29 April 2015 (PAHO/WHO) — The Americas region has become the first in the world to be declared free of endemic transmission of rubella, a contagious viral disease that can cause multiple birth defects as well as fetal death when contracted by women during pregnancy.”

            It is still endemic in the rest of the world so we must maintain vaccine vigilance.

    • Hoter

      http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed
      Do you think we should try and get a ‘proper doctor’ on TV that prescribed VIOXX and ask him why he did it and does he feel responsible for some of those 500,000 deaths it caused, I mean that is some mortality pile right – if it was a naturopath, and it wasn’t, you’d be calling for the death penalty, right.

      • moto_librarian

        So you do know that Vioxx was removed from the market, right?

  • Hoter

    “More people died of the Spanish flu than died in WWI. Two-thirds of the
    population did NOT make it through the Black Death. Both were holocausts
    that took the lives of tens of millions.” modern medical myths only partly told

    You forgot to mention that the ones who mainly died were given large doses of aspirin between 5g and 30g and this was the major factor behind the devastating lung odema. Another medical catastrophe pretending to be a natural disaster.

    • Clorinda Madsen

      You need to clarify your comment and cite your sources. The two-thirds of the population who died in the Black Death died because of the aspirin they were given? Every one of those who died of the Spanish flu were given mega doses of aspirin? Even if aspirin did contribute to the deaths, can you blame people for trying to relieve the pain and other symptoms in an era before modern clinical trials and the stringent requirements? Or even on a disease that acted in a way that no other flu had acted before?

      • Azuran

        Gotta love the logic of those people.
        One person publish an actually interesting studies about how a small proportion of people who died of spanish flu, 100 years ago, might have died becayse they were maybe prescribed a dangerous dosage of aspirin (because it was medicine from freaking 100 years ago, duh) And in this person’s mind it become: 2/3rd of the world’s population were killed by evil doctor giving toxic doses of aspirin on purpose because medecine is EVIL!!!

        • Sarah

          It was actually because they were all given c-sections.

          • Hoter

            it’s because they voted for Obama

          • Sarah

            It’s because they didn’t believe hard enough in homeopathy.

          • Hoter

            No they believed in medical consensus, which is medical anecdote rebranded. Medical consensus gave us VIOXX, and it killed 500,000 Americans. Way to go doco.

          • Sarah

            Every time you say something completely hatstand, a SOB commentator books their kid in for another vaccine.

          • Sue

            Yessss!

          • Hoter

            That’s good news for the son of a bitch commentator then. The more that do that, the better for natural selection.

          • Sarah

            Your first sentence was right. It’s very good news both for the commentators and those who are unvaccinated. You’re welcome, btw.

          • Hoter

            Considering most of you are supposed to be medical professionals, the level of your discussion is more likely to make people think twice about asking for your opinion.

          • Sarah

            Not people, just preppers.

          • Nick Sanders

            Your posts could be the basis for a “misused-word-a-day” calendar, and you want insult other people’s discussion skills?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Vioxx killed half a million Americans? Citation, please.

          • Hoter
          • Azuran

            Sure, medicine make mistake and some people will abuse the system all the time.
            But as you can see, Vioxx was taken out of the market. (also, from all the info I can find about Vioxx, the actual number of victim is around 60 000 so you mind want to check your number) Medicine realized something was wrong and acted on it.
            Like I said many times, medicine is not perfect and will never be perfect. It does the best that it can with current available evidence. But modern medicine has saved way more lives than it killed. And those who died are not ‘killed on purpose’. Those are accidents, known complication to treatments, when those happens we learn from them and react accordingly. And yes, sometime those are due to an idiot who wanted to make money. But those idiots are found everywhere and will always be found everywhere.

            Should we stop making bridges or buildings because some guy in a company somewhere decided to cut corner and get cheaper materials and people dies as a result?
            Should we stop having police officers because some of them can be corrupted?
            Or close all the schools because some teachers are pedophiles?
            Should we stop making and using all cars because you can die in a car accident and because of the VW scandal?

            Of course not. Those things are not perfect, we know they aren’t and we know they will never be, but we are constantly working to make them better. Same thing with medicine. Overall, it saves way more lives than it kills and it is constantly adapting to try and reduce that number even more.

          • Hoter
          • Azuran

            So you refuse all proof of vaccination’s efficacy but accept: huh, less people died, must be vioxx’ as acceptable proof? Even if they guy who wrote this clearly said that it’s totally unproven and simply an hypothesis?
            The official number is still 60 000.
            So I shall answer to your unscientific journal article with another unscientific journal article:
            http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2012/05/30/500000_excess_deaths_from_vioxx_where
            So….what now?

            Still, you did not answer any of my question.
            If all of medicine is bad because of Vioxx. Then shouldn’t we all stop driving cars because of VW?

          • Roadstergal

            True fact – the less you believe in homeopathy, the more powerful your belief is. It’s just science.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Ah, there it is. Ultimate confirming comment.

      • Hoter

        black death/aspirin! Who wrote that? some septic shit spouting crap.

        • Wren

          That was you. Spouting crap sure does describe you well though.

          • Hoter

            Here we see medical doctors’ logic, you can’t rub up an idea and discuss it. Is this why the GP only has 7 minutes to make a diagnosis? Any longer and they would get a headache.

          • Dr Kitty

            No pet, I have 10 minutes timetabled to take a history, perform an examination, come up with a differential diagnosis and a management plan, and discuss the plan with the patient, and write it all up in the notes.

            If the problem is earwax, 10 minutes is too long.
            If the problem is “I’m suicidal” it isn’t long enough.
            Usually the easy cases balance out the difficult ones and I only run about 20 minutes late.
            But I’m not a psychotherapist, I don’t send people away when their time is up, it takes as long as it takes.

          • Hoter

            Stop winging. If you are stupid enough to think you can make a diagnosis in 10 minutes it goes someway to explaining why the so called proper doctor is fucking up the health of the planet. Thank you

          • Azuran

            you really know nothing about medicine if you think having a diagnostic in less then 10 minutes is impossible.
            Can it take more than 10 minutes? Of course.
            Can I get a diagnostic in less time. Obviously. It all depends on what the illness is. And my patients cant even talk to tell me what’s wrong.

            You think it’s impossible because you know nothing about medicine and think everything is caused by bad posture and diet. You’d probably ask to see my posture and follow my diet to figure out why my arm broke in a car accident.

          • Who?

            Conveniently for Hoter a trip to the doctor is in order if someone gets an injury.

          • Nick Sanders

            For example, the last few middle ear infections I’ve had were diagnosed in less than 5 minutes. Granted, I knew what was wrong before I went in, but all the PA had to do was sick the scope in my ear, see how much it was bulging, and then check my nose and throat to see if it had spread.

            It’s funny, I am a usually overly sensitive to pain, but for whatever reason, ear infections cause me almost none. Once, a few years ago, she actually gasped “Doesn’t that hurt?!” when she looked at them. Apparently my eardrum were really stretched and discolored, but they didn’t hurt at all.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            When I sat my MRCP clinical exam, one of the stations was designed to simulate a clinic or GP visit. You had 10 minutes to do a targeted history and examination, come up with a management plan and explain the outcome to the patient. It was quite possible to do all this in 10 minutes.

          • demodocus

            My kid’s ped stayed with us for 15 or 20 minutes at the kid’s 2 week check, because he was concerned whether my blues might be heading toward depression. My sister’s gp stayed with her 2 hours when she went into an emotional meltdown at the office. (she’d been under a lot of stress). It barely took that 10 minutes for the ped to diagnose urti in the kiddo at his last appointment, make sure the wheezing sound was all in his nose and not his lungs, and wrap up the usual 2 year check up.

          • Wren

            Could someone please translate this for me? It is totally irrelevant to what I actually wrote, but Hoter seems to think it’s a meaningful response.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          You implied that, then deleted your post when I called you out. You’re clearly a pillar of integrity!

          • Nick Sanders

            You can’t delete posts here, only anonymize them. It probably got deleted for him using a slur like “retarded” or some such.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Or it just got lost in this Bermuda Triangle of WTF comments as discus begins to buckle under the weight of them.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            The comment was definitely deleted, there must have been something particularly offensive in it.

            Hotter, I take back my accusation of you deleting your own comment, but I’m amused at how you’re playing the innocent with regards to your own posts.

          • Who?

            It might have been one of the downs slurs Hoer indulged in.

            Vulgar, vicious and wrong in both expression and fact.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t remember Hoter using Downs as a slur, probably because he’d have to admit genetic conditions exist that can’t be treated with diet and exercise. The one saying people had Downs was Lawrence.

          • Who?

            My bad.

            Hotor has enough to be blamed for without adding anything extra.

    • Nick Sanders

      Sources, please.

      • Hoter

        just get that damn vaccine

        • Nick Sanders

          That’s not a source.

    • yugaya

      ” the ones who mainly died ( of Spanish flu and plague) were given large doses of aspirin”

      Wut?

      • SporkParade

        And how much willow bark did a Black Death sufferer need to take to get between 5 and 30 g of aspirin?

        • Azuran

          Probably willow bark tree enemas. 2-3 litters every hour.

      • Hoter

        This is gonna be too hard to translate to someone who doesn’t really speak English. The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin – oh fuck I can’t be bothered. Look it up yourself you dense nird

        • yugaya

          “The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin -”

          … and that killed those who “mainly died” during plague how exactly?

          Nice display of linguicism btw, it’s exactly what I expected from you.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          Bayer created aspirin in 1897. The way your post is written makes it sound like large doses of aspirin were responsible for most of the deaths from “The Black Death”. So did you word your post that way because of ignorance or because of a poor grasp of English grammar? Or were you just deliberately trying to deceive?

        • Box of Salt

          Just in case, this is Hoter;
          “oh fuck I can’t be bothered. Look it up yourself you dense nird”

          In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer, “Don’t write naughty words on walls if you can’t spell.”

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          The first licensed drug, Bayer, was aspriin –

          This is a strange phrase, since it seems to imply that the writer thinks that Bayer is a drug rather than a drug company. I assume that they simply made a mistake and meant that The first licensed drug of the company Bayer was aspirin. However, that’s not even true. Bayer’s first pharma product was phenacetin.

    • Katia

      Why is it you anti-vaxers can ALWAYS come up with some freaking lame excuse for why people died of these diseases. No, Hoter, that’s not why they died. The health care system of 1918 couldn’t keep them alive until they recovered, like it can most of the time today.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        They have to lie to themselves because deep down they know their ideas are completely untenable.

      • Hoter

        If you went to hospital, they killed you with aspirin.

        • Wren

          That was a common problem during the Black Death. All those hospitals handing out aspirin to everyone.

    • Maya Markova

      In my country, Spanish flu took the lives of many thousands of villagers who had never seen aspirin in their lives.

      You have chosen the wrong blog to troll.

      • Hoter

        Nice anecdote Maya, that would make you around 100, what does it feel like to be 100. Or did someone tell you? That is a second hand anecdote – the kind the medics love.

    • Dr Kitty

      I misread Hoter as Hodor.
      Then I read your comments.
      And realised Hodor talks more sense than you do.

      • Who?

        Yes but Hoter seems to have far more afflictions to deal with than Hodor, who is a kind person who can think straight, even if he can’t always express himself clearly.

        • Chi

          Just ignore them. They’re an anti-vax troll who goes by the handle medicalpeerreview on the SBM blog.

          • Who?

            That guy? He’s just sad.

  • Anna

    How can a parent claim that they want the best for her children and watch them suffer avoidable pains and discomfort ?Vaccination is protection.

  • Sauron666

    This makes me see red. Sorry, in an organized society, there are some things you do for the common good. One of them is vaccinate your kids. Period.

    • Hoter

      Sorry, that is like saying if you live in Israel, ya gotta cut the end of your knob off to fit in. Some of use who have spend the time reading the fallacious evidence on vaccine efficacy have come to the rational conclusion that vaccination is bullshit. Menstruation.

      • Sarah

        Nobody who has spent time reading anything valid has come to that conclusion, actually.

        • sdsures

          I’m Jewish, and I don’t live in Israel. One of the things Judaism prizes is critical thinking.

          What has menstruation got to do with anything?

          • Nick Sanders

            It was a really bad pun on “period”.

          • sdsures

            Ah. Thanks.

          • Sarah

            This one does seem to have a bit of a thing about Jews. I anticipate something about the Rothschilds and/or communism in the near future.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Yeah, I started gearing up for that too when I saw that comment about cutting the end of your knob off…

          • sdsures

            No replies yet?

          • Roadstergal

            He’s doubling down on the Evil Vaccinating Circumcising Jewish Conspiracy. He and Lawrie _would_ get along famously, I think.

          • Hoter

            does not having a foreskin help you think better?

          • Sue

            I don’t have a foreskin, but my critical thinking ability seems better than yours. QED.

          • sdsures

            I wouldn’t know either way – I’m a lady. And you know darned well that having a foreskin or not has nothing to do with cognitive ability, so stop asking stupid questions.

        • Hoter

          The fanny batter looms like the fog before a storm

          • Sarah

            Your mum looms like the cock before a storm.

          • Who?

            Are you having a stroke?

            I’m sure if you are you won’t bother going to the doctor, after all it would be all your fault so you wouldn’t want anyone to help you out.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        If you cannot comprehend what you read in a comment section of a blog how can you comprehend a research paper?

      • Wren

        “Rational conclusion”? I’m not sure you understand that phrase. You certainly have not demonstrated it here.

      • Lala

        Do you normally switch between speaking English, and then apparently being unable to form simple sentences? How many people use this account?

        And how, exactly, are you trying to tie menstruation to vaccination? Or is that some sort of weird exclamation at the end?

        • Hoter

          It is like wading through horse shit here – are you people regular doctors? If so, it explains why everyone is so ill.

    • Hoter

      Or cut off your foreskin – depends how organised your society is.

  • guest

    “Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms.”

    Such ignorance. I would be offended except she’s just so dumb. Look, I had twins and I know what sleeplessness feels like from the newborn period. One had colic. It was hell. I now have two beautiful sleepers. They are so good I try never to mention it unless asked, because I know how many other kids their age (three) *still* wake at least once a night. Mine don’t, unless they are sick.

    I don’t f—ing drug them. I did use cribs, which I suppose she might view as “locking” them in their room, but we were all in the same room for six months. And now they are completely mobile and out of cribs and there’s no lock on their door and they still sleep.

    You know what helps? THEY DON’T HAVE WHOOPING COUGH. They will wake at night when they have a cold or fever, gee, how surprising. But no, other people’s kids aren’t all drugged and locked in closets if their parents are getting a good night’s sleep.

  • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

    The worst part of this story is that she probably did not quarantine her kids and spread the illness to other poor children who were too young to be vaccinated or to the poor children of her groupies. Why waste money on enemas when you can pay a co-pay and get some anti-biotics? Maybe $200 total to save your children from suffering and putting the public at risk? That would only be too sensible for someone like Heather. If I was her father I would have absconded with her children to the ER for proper treatment, because she was medically neglecting her kids and torturing them with enemas, for 6 months to boost her ego. Those poor children.

    • Hoter

      Lots of probablys and maybes there Jenny, are you sure you don’t write for a medical peer reviewed journal.

      • moto_librarian

        And I suppose you do?

      • Nick Sanders

        One is “lots”? Especially given that it was about a medicine price, which even the most informed wouldn’t be expected to know exactly off the top of their head.

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

        If her children were fighting pertussis for 6 months, did she keep them in the home and out of school for that time? Probably not. No, I don’t write for peer reviewed journals, but I work as an RT and have been seeing this type of stupidity with increasing frequency in the last 2 years. The suffering people inflict on their children without being necessary is deplorable and only done to boost ones own ego. She is lucky she didn’t wake up to find one of her children dead in their bed.

        • Chi

          She states in the article that her kids are homeschooled. BUT she also states that they do other activities, presumably with other children from the area, such as gymnastics (she marveled her son wasn’t kicked out of gymnastics class he was coughing so much).

          Not to mention that SHE still saw her clients, presumably with the pertussis bacteria from her children’s coughs/vomit etc on her. So she was likely a transmission vector too.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            My point exactly. I missed the homeschooling part, but she continued to take them to gymnastics and other activities which is deplorable to expose other young children and physically exhaust a very sick child who by her own admission cannot stop coughing. What she does not realize is none of these herbal remedies or natural potions did anything for her children except extend their suffering for an unthinkable amount of time.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        Says a person who has obviously never read past an abstract

      • MaineJen

        Dexter wrote about how she still took her son to gymnastics class when he was having paroxysmal coughing fits, and is “surprised they didn’t get kicked out.” So…yeah. Read much?

  • yugaya

    Oh the irony.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      And if they do get sick, keep them sick longer than everyone else

  • Roadstergal

    I didn’t think of this until I was reading the story over at SBM, but many here have mentioned that Heather herself, and her husband, were almost certainly vaccinated by their parents. So they spent months and months in intimate contact with three massively infected children and their various biofluids, and never got pertussis themselves. They’re poster children for the vaccine, really.

    • Cathy

      Would have been the whole cell

    • Hoter

      Lots of people don’t get pertussis, in fact there are 18 million people taking immune suppressant drugs in the USA and SBM could only find one who had a hard time with whooping cough. You could say the hoo haa here is totally disproportionate, but it is actually just a load of PR spin. I am amazed so many people have fallen for it here.

      • Azuran

        But those people mainly don’t get sick because of herd immunity. (and I’d also expect people on immune suppressant drugs to be extra carefull in avoiding obviously sick people and usually their close family will keep up to date on vaccine to protect them). If you are not exposed, you cannot get the disease.

        • Hoter

          Yawn, herd immunity. What is that when it is at home?

          • Sarah

            Your face

          • Azuran

            I had not yet realised that you were an idiotic troll before I wasted my time on answering you. Sorry for mistaking you for an actually intelligent person looking for an intelligent discussion.

          • Hoter

            yes it is hard to have an intelligent discussion about vaccination when the efficacy evidence reads like some religious psalm. It is incredulous that there are still a few people left, in the dying stages, still trying to claim that they ‘work’.

            It is like talking to the KKK on racial integration

          • Nick Sanders

            Still herd immunity.

          • Hoter

            What all the kids who get polio vaccine are the biggest risk for catching polio, so everyone has to have the vaccine type marketing.

          • Nick Sanders

            Can you say that again, but this time make sense?

          • Hoter

            The shit of children who have been unlucky enough to receive polio vaccine is a good source of polio infection – in fact in the Western world it is the no 1 cause of Polio.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, I mean there’s that all of one guy in Britain, for example…

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Well, if it’s just the one guy, I guess that would make it the “number 1 cause in the Western World” then, given that polio is nearly eradicated worldwide and that none of the places that I know of where it still exists are even in in the West.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, he has an immune disorder, and so didn’t properly respond to the OPV decades ago. He has apparently since been cured via plasma therapy.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34082627

          • Hoter

            They call polio non polio flaccid paralysis now, it got renamed if you had the vaccine. Same number of cases as polio, just more politically convenient.

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove it.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Thank you for enlightening us!!!!! You have extensively researched the issue, performed a ton of tests on patient samples on a laboratory, published your results… Oh, no, actually that did not happen. The reality is a bunch of antivaxxers, with no idea whatsoever what real research is like comes up with a lovely theory that explains very well that we are all on a big nice conspiracy (billions of people are conspirating) and you simply say it and repeat it like automats on the internet.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Well, actually no.

            There are two types of polio vaccines. The inactivated one and the oral one. The inactivated one (the one that you would use in the USA) has never ever infected anyone. So, if you use the inactivated type, as you should, living in the USA, you are not going to spread polio due to being vaccinated.

          • Roadstergal

            His reference to ‘shit’ makes me think he’s messing up his anti-vax memes – that is, the SV40 found in the feces of people administered the OPV? (Which, just to finish the thought, was shown not to increase cancer rates short- or long-term in studies of people administered the OPV – in agreement with the animal studies, where oral SV40 did not cause cancer.)

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I thought he might be talking about the shedding that you might have with the oral polio vaccine. It is difficult to think about it as an infection source in a country that does not use that vaccine and the number of cases has always made it worthwile to get that vaccine but… I might be wrong of course, his lack of proper use of scientific terms makes it very difficult to understand him.

        • Hoter

          Lot of woo in your post. There are 18 million people in the USA on immune suppressant drugs, why don’t they all fall down?

          • Azuran

            You mean like, all of them, instantly, at the moment they start immune suppressive drugs? Because immunity and diseases do not work like that.
            Immune suppressive drugs will not necessarily put your immunity to absolute 0, It weakens it to various degrees depending of the medication and dosage.
            People on immune suppressant drugs are extra careful to avoid exposure to potential diseases. Avoiding crowded public places and sick people. Also having a very high level of hygiene.
            By the way. Many people on immune suppressant drugs do die from various infectious diseases every single day.
            Why don’t they all die of vaccine preventable disease? Well because the majority of people are vaccinated and are immune to the disease, so immune suppressed people have very little chances to be exposed.

          • Hoter

            Bing bang Azuran. Nice word tagine there. You sort of missed the point. The immune system is a waste recognition system, suppressing it, however little, is always going to make the patient more susceptible to some kind of disease process. Like the rubella vaccine and its know precipitation of rhumatoid disease in adults. What you are not telling people is that if they take this or that vaccine, they open themselves up to all sorts of shit, literally. Modern medicine has no philosophy of application, it has ethics and protocols, but it has no idea about what it is trying to achieve. Vaccination so does not make you immune to ‘the disease’. Just look at the regular failure of whooping cough vaccine, it’s an unmitigated disaster.

          • Azuran

            ‘philosophy of application’? What is that and how is it different than ‘ethics and protocols’?
            Yea we know what we are trying to achieve: Preventing preventable deaths.

            Can some people have adverse effect? Yes. they can. Can they sometime fail to work? Yes they can. Those fact are very well known. No one ever claimed that every vaccine what 100% safe and 100% effective. They are, however, one of the most effective ‘medication’ et have and one of the safest. The adverse effects are nothing when compared to all the lives that are saved every single year.
            We did have a whooping cough epidemic as well last year (yea, someone brought it all the way from disney land to my country). With slightly over 100 cases. 100% of those who had it were not vaccinated. In a population were over 90% of the population is vaccinated. Vaccination is very effective and we shouldn’t stop it on the ground that it’s not 100% success. There is no teatment in medecine that is 100% effective in treating/preventing anything.

          • Hoter

            please get a dictionary. We do have whooping cough epidemics in fully vaccinated cohorts Azuran and rates have been steadily climbing every year since the 90’s. The vaccine is not working and never has.

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove it.

          • Azuran

            Don’t know where you live. But where I live, cases of whopping cough are indeed rising….In unvaccinated children, in area where the vaccination rate is no longer high enough to provide herd imunity. Vaccine are not effective when you don’t get them.

          • Nick Sanders

            The immune system is a waste recognition system

            No.

          • Hoter

            So why is almost all of your primary immune response a dramatic increase in excretion, ie mucous, D and vomiting, sweating, sneezing, coughing………….

            You tell us what it is if it isn’t this please.

          • Nick Sanders

            Mucous trap pathogens in the respiratory tract; diarrhea and vomiting are immune responses, they are what happens when something irritates the digestive tract; sweating is a side effect of the actual immune response of fever, which is there to slow down pathogen reproduction; sneezing and coughing are again, not immune responses but physical reflexes in response to irritation of different parts of the respiratory system.

            And you completely misused the phrase “primary immune response”:
            http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0000947.html

          • Hoter

            Thanks Nick that was interesting. Point is though, the innate immune system, which is what it is talking about is only 2% of our immune response. No mention of mucous etc. and how this is more likely to be our primary response, they move straight to the sexy stuff, which is rather late in the day to be honest.

            The other 98% is non specific and that is the interesting bit that orthodox medicine usually sees as annoying symptoms. I would go further to say that we don’t get pathogens multiplying in healthy bodies so the emphasis on an alternative approach to medical fire fighting is to stop the fire being necessary. Unhealthy bodies make homes for pathogens, not the other way round.

            To quote Virchow, the father of pathology, ‘If I could live my life again I would not waste it chasing germs, for like the stagnant pond attrachs mosquetos, it doesn’t make the pond stagnent’.

            I appreciate that sometimes firefighting is totally necessary, but in the vast majority of human ills, we are creating the pathway to the fire by suppressing all those little cleaning events and making the likelihood of a bigger mess more likely.

          • MaineJen

            I notice that you’re completely ignoring the adaptive immune system here…aka the formation of antibodies. Could it be that you have no idea how the immune system actually works, or how vaccines actually work? Are you just spouting nonsense to hear yourself speak?

          • Hoter

            Hi Maine, not really, antibodies are a marker, they are not a sign of immunity to anything, in a sense they are not that important. The so called ‘adaptive immune system’ is only a very small part of immune function.

          • Megan

            So, activation of complement and B cells aren’t that important? I see…

          • Hoter

            It is a distraction from the real factors in health Megan. Trying to provoke sexy bits of cellular activity in a patient who has say Hep B is not as important as sorting out the lifestyle that led to the liver problem.
            We know that 90% of adults recover with no problem. One wonders why these 90% are not studied, because changing lifestyle is the key, it is more important than fiddling with bits of activity, especially if the patient is eating crap and not resting.

          • Megan

            Nice sidestepping there. I said nothing about vaccines at all. I merely countered your ridiculous assertion that antibodies aren’t important with two functions of antibodies. You’re welcome to respond to my actual comment.

          • Nick Sanders

            One wonders why these 90% are not studied

            No, one doesn’t, because they are.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Well, if a person is literally eating crap, Hep A is a real risk. Luckily there is a vaccination. You can even take it as a combo shot with Hep B! It’s called Twinrix.

          • Hoter

            Hep B naturally resolves with no treatment in 90% of adults who change their lifestyles and diet. Why would anyone want to get the vaccine. If you eat well and have a good lifestyle, you don’t ‘get it’.

          • Wren

            Well, not unless you do.

          • Hoter

            that is a stupid logic. We make people wear seatbelts or fine them. Maybe we should fine fat people for eating too much or would you rather mediaid paid for gastric bands? Maybe free lung transplants for cigar smokers – what kind of scientist are you? A money scientist?

          • MaineJen

            …are you high?

            No, seriously. How do you think people get sick?

          • Nick Sanders

            And in children?

          • Hoter

            http://www.hepb.org/patients/children_and_hepatitis_b.htm

            Hepatitis B does not usually affect a child’s
            normal growth and development. Most children
            with chronic hepatitis B infections will enjoy long and healthy
            lives. Unlike other chronic medical conditions, there are
            generally no physical disabilities associated with hepatitis
            B, nor are there usually any physical restrictions for these
            children.

          • Wren

            Are you insane? Did you actually read the rest of that information, or just quote the first thing that matched your beliefs?

          • Roadstergal

            From the link he posted. Hey, way better than a kid getting a perfectly safe vaccination!

          • Hoter

            Nice appeal to emotion Wren.Most people recover from Hep B without treatment, just a lifestyle change. I am not vaccinating my kids or anyone in my familiy for the 10% of people who won’t do that.

          • Who?

            Nice you assume your family couldn’t get it or if they did they would be one of the ‘most’. Complacency killing or maiming you would be one thing, it’s a bad look setting your kids up for the same fate.

            Also funny how you demand 100% safety from vaccines but are totally fine with ‘usually’ as your protection.

          • Hoter

            What on earth are you trying to say here Who? I don’t demand anything from vaccines, the whole concept is woo, where did you get that idea?

          • Nick Sanders

            How, pray tell, is it woo?

          • Hoter

            Vaccine relies on medical peer review for ‘evidence’. This is no more than branded marketing. You tell us why vaccination isn’t woo.

          • Azuran

            So…..You are saying that all studies done on vaccines are worthless because they are made by medical professionals and reviewed by other medical professionals? who should review medical studies if not other medical professionals? The Pizza delivery guy?

            Vaccination isn’t woo because there have been numerous studies showing their efficacy time and time again. It is a fact. You are just wrong.

          • Sarah

            The only people qualified to review medical studies are stupid, paranoid hippies. I can’t believe you even needed to ask.

          • Hoter

            Appeals to medical peer review are not acceptable citations. What world do you live in. Medical peer review gives us gems like VIOXX that killed 500,000 Americans in the 10 years in was in use. You are relying on straw, I hope you don’t have children.

          • Azuran

            I will definitely have children and definitely vaccinate them because it is a safe and effective way to prevent disease that can be deadly and can have lifelong consequences.

            So, you don’t consider medical professional conducting studies and then have other medical professional look over their work and confirm that their methodology was good and their result valid as something acceptable.
            What kind of testing would you find acceptable?
            Because according to you, every single study ever made on every single medication, surgery or medical test out there is worthless.

          • Hoter

            We accept surgery, which has almost no trial evidence to show it works. The problem with medical peer review, particularly for vaccines and many lifestyle drugs like statins, arthritis and blood pressure meds is that too much money rides on their success. We have to rely on the private sector to produce evidence and this is not a healthy way to run things. Even the editors of the main medical peer reviewed journals agree with this, it is not the nirvana you are portraying at all.

            Most doctors have no idea about what makes for a healthy diet, why should they be trusted to prescribe medication for people who are obese and have diabetes? or cancer for that matter?

          • Azuran

            Claiming that vaccine work and are safe is not ‘nirvana’

            You are the one expecting a perfect world where everything is 100% bias free. Never gonna happen. Our evidence might not be 100% perfect, but we have a ridiculous amount of it. Medicine is not perfect, it will never be perfect, but it is constantly evolving and changing with each new discovery.

            The only thing anti-vaxxers have to show is the Disney measles epidemic, which is as good of a placebo study as you are ever going to get.
            As for your comment about Doctor: For the same reason you trust teacher to teach your kids, or an engineer to build a bridge, or a pilot to fly a plane. Because they went to school and trained for this. Doesn’t mean they are perfect or can’t make mistake, but they still know a lot more than you ever will.

          • Hoter

            Claiming that a vaccine works, when all you have is medical peer reviewed research is like claiming a creationist evolution because you have a bible and lots of supporters.

            You sure do have a rediculous amount of it, thank you for being honest – it’s completely rediculous and more does not mean better if it’s horse shit, believe me.

            You know Disney, you know what the CDC announced about that “An unknown woman, who may have been infected with measles, may have stayed at Disney, whereabouts now unknown”

            building bridges is science, being a doctor is woo. I mean their only ‘treatment’ for things like arthritis is painkillers. If we ‘treated’ falling bridges with sky hooks or no money with credit cards – where is the logic in that?

            Doctors are not trained to think, they are trained to follow protocols and ethical rules. If the rules say prescribe VIOXX they do – when 500,000 Americans die from heart attack they carry on until they are told to stop by someone else. No, I would not trust a doctor with my health choices. Doctors know more about woo belief than I ever will, I mean they think you can ‘catch’ flu and colds. LOL

            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

          • Nick Sanders

            Because it primes the immune system for when actual pathogens show up.

          • Hoter

            Citation required that isn’t some medical peer reviewed bible or from a study funded by a vaccine manufacturer please. I can’t believe you believe that fairy story, it’s LOL.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, sorry, you’re the one expecting to overturn more than a century of empirically established models, you can provide the proof that the current consensus is wrong.

          • Hoter

            So, Nick, who established these ‘models’, who is this consensus you speak so highly of? Looks like an appeal to pseudo authority fallacy to me.
            citation required

          • Nick Sanders

            Stop using words you don’t understand.

          • Hoter

            So was one of the models Naomi Campbell? I assume you have no idea who established the medical consensus, I am assuming you made it up!

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            So…..basically you are saying: Prove it, but any existing proof is invalid because I said so.

          • Nick Sanders

            Pretty much. Hoter has repeatedly shown up, made bold claims, demanded we prove otherwise, and yet never provided any proof of their own.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            What dimensional rift has this breed of anti-factual nut jobs crawled out of and how do we close it?

          • Hoter

            You are the vaccine believer, not me Azuran. I don’t see evidence, I see cookery. No placebos, but claims of placebo, cherry picked data and denial of negative data.

          • Azuran

            Considering that the world medical consensus is that vaccine works, you are actually the one who has to prove to the world that we are wrong. We have more than proved that we were right.
            You know why there are no placebos? Because doing double blinded studies with placebo would causes children to die.
            Funny how all antivaxxer are claiming all out evidence is bogus because we don’t have placebo trials, yet you don’t see them making one.

          • Hoter

            The total number of ‘medical experts’ in the world represents a very small proportion. ‘Experts’, by definition are self appointed. They create their own appeal to authority. Financial experts brought the world to its knees with piss poor finance decisions.

            It is ironic that you decide children would die with placebo trials, it assumes that the vaccine works!
            When the national institute of clinical evidence (NICE) did trials on fever and meningitis, it found that withholding fever reduction medication meant that all the children survived, with no sequali.

            This meant full recovery with no loss of limbs etc.

            What is bogus is the randomized control trial testing methodology, it isn’t evidence, it is contrived data production.

            We know that measles mortality evaporates with one carrot a days worth of vitamin A. This represents nil risk and full protection from death.

            The medical mythology teaches that measles is some random woo that kills willy nilly and the only ‘protection’ is their snake oil product. Where is the science?

          • Nick Sanders

            When the national institute of clinical evidence (NICE) did trials on fever and meningitis, it found that withholding fever reduction medication meant that all the children survived, with no sequali.

            Citation or it didn’t happen.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            So what would you accept as a reliable source?

          • Hoter

            Tomato

          • Wren

            Again, did you read anything else? The vast majority of infants DO NOT RECOVER. A significant percentage of children DO NOT RECOVER. I’m not arguing for vaccinating adults who are not in a close relationship with known HepB carriers, but children and infants, many of whom WILL NOT RECOVER.

          • Hoter

            It is a stupid argument and I don’t look to others to pretend to ‘protect’ my family with voodoo. shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?

          • Wren

            I don’t look to others for voodoo either. I look to scientists and doctors for evidence based interventions like vaccines that have drastically altered the survival rate of children.

            You go ahead and stick to your voodoo though, or whatever it is you are claiming that makes just as little sense.

          • Hoter

            What a shame you somehow correlate doctors and evidence. When doctors relied on the evidence for VIOXX the mortality rate went up by 50,000 in the over 65 age group, it stayed there for 10 years until it was finally admitted that it was causing heart attacks. In the year it was taken off the market, the mortality rate fell by 50,000. The ‘evidence’ that doctors relied on killed 500,000 Americans.
            The same kind of ‘evidence’ tells the woo of vaccine success Wren. Vaccine compliance is the new ‘natural selection’ and that isn’t for survival, just in case you get excited.
            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

          • Dr Kitty

            Ok…
            COX2 was a combination of drug companies suppressing unfavourable evidence and it taking time for an adverse event to become apparent.
            Once it had, Vioxx came off the market, drug companies were fined and class action lawsuits were settled.

            You have yet to produce any credible evidence to support your claims, but then you honestly disregard germ theory and any genetic basis for cancer.

          • Who?

            You write that and Hoter will respond with is ‘vaccines bad blah, vioxx a conspiracy blah blah, doctors evil blah, diet fixes everything blah, people used to live forever despite those old cemeteries full of babies burp…’

            Rinse and repeat.

            After all, alternative medicine never has to withdraw anything, since nothing works, and if the user gets sicker or dies it is because they didn’t use it properly or believe enough.

          • Box of Salt

            Hoter “shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?”

            Yes, let’s learn to swim.

            Vaccines are the teachers for your immune system, Hoter.

            Allow your body to learn from them.

          • Hoter

            Nice woo box of crap. So this years flu vaccine was ‘3% effective’, shit teaching. Better learn to swim

          • Nick Sanders

            So, you’re saying kids shouldn’t wear lifejackets?

          • Hoter

            You are saying kids should wear a pretend life-jacket, with woo vaccine talisman protection tassel mantras, just in case aliens land.

          • Azuran

            No, just a plain old regular life-jacket. They have been proven effective and safe.

          • Hoter

            You’re playing the vaccine fallacy card and playing the irrelevant analogy argument too. Relying on medical peer review is not ‘evidence’ either.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, see, I was asking a serious question, in regards to your previous post:

            shall we all walk round with a rubber ring just in case we fall in a pond? Or learn to swim?

            Learning to swim takes time, and even once you’ve done so, accidents can still happen. Thus young children should always wear lifejackets when around swimming pools and other similarly sized water or larger, and even adults should wear them at times, such as when boating. It’s basic precaution, but you implied it was silly.

          • Hoter

            But life jackets and health are not the same thing. You are making the vaccine fallacy argument that without a vaccine you will get ill. This simply isn’t at all true. The medical fallacy that the body goes wrong and needs doctors to fix it, doesn’t apply to everything. I get run over,, yes 911 makes complete sense. Most of the rest from the reasons for heart disease, cancer and all those auto immune conditions on is bloody bonkers.
            What doctor alive, routinely asks the patient what they are eating and whether or not they shit?
            Medical doctors can’t even ask basic questions and formulate anything else other than palliative care. No wonder so many of them commit suicide.
            http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410643_2
            I suppose the shock of realising that your work is based on woo must be too much for some.

          • Nick Sanders

            But life jackets and health are not the same thing.

            It was your comparison, don’t blame me.

          • Hoter

            “Nick Sanders
            3 hours ago
            So, you’re saying kids shouldn’t wear lifejackets?”

            Guess that makes you a liar and a vaccine believer!

          • Nick Sanders

            Let’s see:
            1. Are you so dumb you forget what you yourself have said?
            2. We’ve been over this. I don’t “believe” in vaccines any more than I “believe” in shovels or air conditioners.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            “What doctor alive, routinely asks the patient what they are eating and whether or not they shit?”

            Colorectal surgeons and gastroenterologists routinely ask patients about bowel motions. Endocrinologists specialising in diabetes would routinely ask about diet.

          • Hoter

            Hey, monkey cock, go take a stroll on a gastro ward and watch them eating processed wheat cereals with cows milk whist the ‘specialist’ talks about what immune suppressant they should be on.
            You are sooooo out of touch here, so way beyond reality – you have to be a doctor, right?
            Ask anyone on insulin what the protocol for a hypo is, take a bag of Haribos, not reduce the insulin. All they are interested in is blood stats, if you overload with insulin the rest of the pancreas shuts down and then they relax, because it can all be ‘managed then’.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Please reread my post. All I did was show that your implication that no doctor ever asks about diet or bowel motions was clearly incorrect. But I guess it’s easier to hurl abuse and then change the subject rather than admit your mistake.

            And eating fast release carbohydrates is indeed the correct emergency treatment for a hypo, although I’ve never seen anyone recommend a whole bag of Haribos. The insulin dose should be reviewed also and reduced if appropriate, but this is of no use in the acute setting. Unless of course your advice is that a person with diabetes should treat a hypo by going back in time and taking less insulin.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            These would do wonder on the gastro ward.
            Those comments are epic!

          • Hoter

            It is a shame you cannot really understand this subject, but talking to septic believers is a bit like talking to Scientologists on the woo of engrams.

            The MD does not have any relevant training on diet with regard to its paramount contribution in recovery from chronic illness. To the MD all chronic illness is generally bad luck, blamed on parents or mystery.

            The idea that you can address many diseases by using appropriate dietary methods is an anathema to them – almost beyond comprehension.

          • Dr Kitty

            Hoter, you going to suggest which diet my Crohn’s patient needs?
            Now remember, it has to be nutritionally complete, no good if she gets beriberi or scurvy or kwashiorkor!

            I have no issue with her trying to eat whatever she wants, as yet however, it hasn’t worked.

          • Hoter

            I need more information, age, medical history, any elective surgery, occupation, what does patient do when she gets a cold, vaccine history, a food diary for about two weeks, I need to see the posture. If you can supply that, I would be happy to help.

          • Dr Kitty

            Not going to happen, for the simple reason that there are strict rules in place about sharing patient information with random crazy people on the Internet… And you know it.

            Tell you what, why don’t you inject yourself with some HIV and HepC, cure yourself with diet and lifestyle and then come back and share your knowledge.

            If viruses don’t make healthy people sick, well, you should have no problems!

          • Who?

            Wouldn’t matter what the suggestion was, when it didn’t work the response would be ‘you didn’t try hard enough/didn’t believe enough/aren’t fully open to it’.

            As we know, alt practitioners are never wrong, but according to them, their former patients always are.

          • Azuran

            It’s the posture!!!!! Clearly crohn’s disease is caused by hunched back and not properly sitting on a chair.
            I guess my cat patients with IBD just have a posture problem. They must not be rolling themself on the right side when they curl themselves in a ball!!!!

          • Who?

            Again with the moronic words-‘septic’ this time.

            Being rude and mocking doesn’t make you right.

            I just hope your poor children don’t pay the same price as Ms Dexter’s or an even higher price for your ignorance.

          • Hoter

            When medicine kills 500,000 with VIOXX, and you can only find one family that had issues managing whooping cough not very well, but the patient survived – what is your point about being desperate and insulting?
            http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed
            I don’t ‘hope’ anything honey – I just get on with it.

          • Sarah

            Would that you were right about there only being one such family. The world would be a better place if that were true.

          • Who?

            Medicine learns and gets better.

            You believe and are lucky.

            You’re also incredibly callous. Dexter’s children were grievously ill for six months, and have who knows what kind of long term ill health as a result. But hey, so long as mum got to indulge herself, what does all that suffering matter? Are you one of those who think children don’t feel pain and don’t remember being sick? I do wonder whether natural health nuts are often actually illness denialists-‘oh dear, did you cough up a lung darling? Never mind have some of mummy’s worse than useless tincture so mummy can feel better.’

          • Azuran

            You know why we can only find one family with whooping cough? Because no one gets whooping cough anymore thanks to vaccination.
            And as people pointed out MANY times: Vioxx has been taked out of the market.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            Did he just call us septic believers?…..what does that make us?

          • Nick Sanders

            Septic means whatever Hoter wants it to mean.

          • Who?

            Hoter’s been doing it for days-oh so clever. Thing is, however rude, disparaging, insulting or pathetic Hoter is, it doesn’t make anyone else wrong.

            Not a lesson Hoter has grasped. But then he is a bit thick, since he thinks small children being deathly ill for six months is a perfectly acceptable price to pay for their parent’s beliefs.

          • Dr Kitty

            So IBD doesn’t exist?
            Or it does, but only as a reaction to gluten and lactose?
            Or gliadin and cow’s milk protein?
            Or to what exactly?

            I have one patient with Crohns who has tried everything.
            Raw food, gluten free, Paleo, vegan, FODMAP, you name it, she’s tried it. Every time I hear how she’s really feeling better, and is sure the diet is working and how we should cut down her immunosuppressants. Then a few weeks later the diet is no good, the symptoms are worse, and can we up the dose again?

            I think it is repeated placebo effects with the real benefit coming from her medications, which she will not keep taking at the effective but high doses she needs.

            Do you think she just hasn’t found the right extremely restrictive all natural diet?

          • Hoter

            Of course irritation of the bowel exists. Crohns used to be called ‘terminal ileitis’. They used to cut that bit out and then join it up. funny thing was, the last bit would inflame and they would do the same until there was nothing left. What never occurred to the gastroenterologists was that it was what was in the bowel that was not being considered.

            How the body digests higher up matters, if the food is not digested well, it breaks down and rots. This bolus is what contributes to the inflammation at the terminus of the small intestine.

            Other factors are shift work, not eating balanced diet with regularity, too many mercury fillings – it is well known this link for GIT ulceration, many of my patients have been dental nurses.

            Does your patient have low back pain?, some patients have spinal lesions affecting vasomotors to the GIT and these need addressing.

            Anything that raises the sympathetic tone will decrease GIT secretor motor and contribute to poorly digested food, that becomes an irritant.

            Every patient I have had with who used to have either IBD and Crohn’s had a combination of the above factors in differing degrees. Got to take wheat and dairy out of the diet, lie down after every meal for half an hour, put a routine back into the life and stop doing shift work.

            You can’t do raw, unless you remove the insoluble fibre by juicing with a masticating juicer. It is not a question of stopping meds and trying random diets Dr Kitty, you need to be able to make a constitutional diagnosis, not a hybrid medical one.

            A lot of septic sites have really fucked up access to this logical information, Wiki is one of the worst. So I appreciate you have had a hard time trying to find this information, I have only summarized some of it here but there are a lot good people helping IBD and Crohn’s patients recover completely without meds and lead a fairly normal disease free life.

          • Dr Kitty

            Oh dear G-d!
            Hoter claims to have patients!
            Someone is actually PAYING him for this nonsense!

            My Crohn’s patients hasn’t worked in years… Shift work is not her problem. I would LOVE to see the mechanism whereby Mercury fillings can cause colitis. Would also like to know how someone having 8-10 stools a day can possibly have food stay in their gut long enough to rot!

            BTW Hoter, Crohn’s can affect the entire GIT from the mouth to the anus.

            Also, looks like he’s deleting his more obviously stupid comments, like the one about Haribo and hypoglycaemia…

          • Nick Sanders

            Last I heard, only Dr. Tuteur can actually delete comments here, and she only does it for things that are particularly offensive or spammy.

          • Who?

            Hoter, you do realise that you can call people all the childish vulgar names you like, it doesn’t make them wrong? Or you right?

          • Azuran

            The treatment of hypoglycemia is sugar because right now, your sugar is low and you need to get it up right away, lowering your next insulin dose isn’t going to help your hypoglycemia right now.
            Then, once you ate the candy and your blood sugar is normal again, you see about readjusting your insulin.
            But many things will affect your blood sugar during the day so keeping a tight control over it is hard. it’s not as simple as ‘lowering your insulin’

            Doctor do spend a good amount of time talking about diet. When my dad had a stroke this summer, the doctor talked to him at length about food (and various other health things) and gave him multiple info sheets on what he was and wasn’t allowed to eat anymore.

          • Who?

            I think we both know that Hoter is not susceptible to truth or reason, and is in any event far too busy whipping up evidence for whatever paranoid nonsense du jour he or she is peddling to pay attention.

            In my experience it isn’t the doctor talking about diet that’s the problem, it’s the patient being unwilling or unable to hear or take the advice.

          • Nick Sanders

            far too busy whipping up evidence

            Actually, Hoter has yet to offer even the suggestion of evidence on their part.

          • Hoter

            Did you doctor talk about the importance of vitamin C in CVD and vitamin D and Niacin?

          • Azuran

            Mostly they talked about exercise, stopping smoking, not dringking so much and eating generally healthier. Because those things are obviously way more important in helping his heart than vitamin c supplements.
            But then again, his new diet includes loads of fruit, so there is no concern about his vitamin C levels (or any other kind of food related deficiency). He was already on medication for his cholesterol and seeing as he had his stroke in summer and he’s an outside worker, I doubt he has vitamin D deficiency.

          • Hoter

            Vitamin C is crucial in CVD. Collagen needs vit C to keep the blood vessels elastic! Meds for cholesterol is about as stupid as it gets if he is not taking vit C!

          • Azuran

            As I said. Lots of fruits.
            Or are you going to say now that eating healthy is not enough anymore? You’re going to say that you still need vitamin supplements no matter how good you eat? After all that talk you did about doctors not caring about nutrition?

          • Sarah

            I was asked about this by every passing medic after my section. Midwife, obstetrician, anaesthetist, all were fascinated with what was going in and coming out.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “and even adults should wear them at times, such as when boating”

            Yep. I swam at the college level. I still wear a lifejacket whenever I boat, even just canoeing. My brother-in-law was a national champion swimmer at a Division 1 university, and he follows the same policy. If a rogue wave hits just right, and you breathe in at just the wrong time, even the strongest swimmer can drown.

          • Roadstergal

            Similarly, I’m very healthy and do all the Hotor-approved things – eat well, lots of exercise, a good night’s sleep. I still get vaccinated, because although I will _probably_ survive any infection I’m faced with, I greatly prefer to not have to deal with them in the first place if a vaccine is available, and because even a small risk of death is worth lowering.

            (And for some diseases, having a hearty, healthy, strong immune system puts one at a disadvantage – eg, Spanish flu.)

          • Azuran

            You should totally learn to swim. And that’s actually what vaccination does. It teaches your body how to fight an infection before it needs to do it.
            Not vaccinating your children is like throwing them into the pond without teaching them how to swim and hope they get the hang of it before they drown.

            Beside. Why would I want to take the risk of being forced to ‘change my lifestyle’ by an illness that can easily be prevented?

          • Hoter

            Gosh you really have the septic fear woo of the lurgy wurgy. It is fascinating that you really believe without vaccine we are all doomed. Considering this year flu vaccine is only ‘3% effective’ there must be a lot of septics shitting it. I bet the mortality rate isn’t any higher than any other year, that is what Cochraine found. Flu vaccine is the high alter of woo. Did you get your ‘protection?’.

          • Azuran

            How did you even interpret what I said as me saying we are ‘doomed’ without vaccination?
            True, we have survived without it for thousands of years and we would keep living on without it. Sure, a couple more hundreds of thousands kids and elderly people would die every single year from vaccine preventable diseases, but I guess that doesn’t matter to you. I kinda prefer my kids and grandparents to be alive and healthy.

            The failure of the flu vaccine of last year absolutely does not mean that all vaccination is useless or that all flu vaccination for that matter is useless.
            Making a vaccine take time. They have to predict in advance which strains of flu are more likely to be most prevalent on any given year. Last year their prediction was wrong­. That’s all that happened. The vaccine was super effective against the flu strains in it. Those strains were just different than the ones causing the bulk of the epidemic.

          • Hoter

            Gosh, you are so entry level septic. The dishonesty of the vaccine evidence movement is paramount to your fantasy of vaccines having any benefit. The pretend science of vaccines is no different to burgers claiming to be food.

            What on earth gave you the idea that vaccine scientists, based on predictions, were anything else but woo?

          • Azuran

            well, first of all, Burgers are definitely food…. I can’t believe I actually have to explain that to someone….
            I’m not a septic. I’m a medical professional, I have education in epidemiology and immunity, and I use and see the benefits of vaccination every single day in my practice.
            Yea sure, epidemiology is woo. Taking samples from sick people, identifying the strains of the flu in a lab and monitoring their progression through the population to make prediction about which ones are more likely to cause epidemics is totally woo. Absolutely nothing scientific going on there.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Well that depends.

            Falling in to a pond isn’t a huge deal if you can swim back to shore. A lot like how my generation wasn’t vaccinated against small pox because it’s no longer a threat.

            However, it is the law that when you go out in a boat on the ocean that you wear a life jacket. It’s especially important for children. It’s not a sure chance you’ll fall out of the boat but if you do in the ocean the consequences are much, much worse even if you can swim. A lifejacket can keep you upright and breathing. Without it you have until your body is too cold to move your limbs enough to keep you floating. Even if a vaccine isn’t 100% perfect it will make it much more likely for you to survive if you have it compared to if your immune system is left to fend for itself. Much like a lifejacket makes it more likely to survive if you do fall out of the boat. Our life jackets are vaccines like TDaP and MMR because it’s more likely we’ll be exposed to it, like you’re more likely to fall out of the boat on a rough sea.

            Which would you prefer? I’ll take the life jacket.

          • Hoter

            But a vaccine isn’t a lifejacket, it’s a lifeload. People who die from measles are malnourished, not vaccine deficient. You need to read the review on tetanus vaccine – another pseudo treatment.

            Geez, all these vaccine believers are weird, who told them this stuff works – it is a joke right.

          • Nick Sanders
          • MaineJen

            But Wren…don’t you get it? Talking about infants and children dying of a vaccine-preventable illness is a *stupid argument.* End of discussion!!!1!

            We really should put Hoter and Lawrie in a room together. A padded room. And seal the door. They will get caught in an endless woo-loop together and never bother us again…

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, the histology! …I mean, humanity!

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Well, the page you cite, THE VERY PAGE YOU CITE also says that:
            -90% of infants infected develop chronic infection
            -25-50% of children under 5 that get infected do so
            – children with hep B infection should get referred to an specialist in order to decide which treatment is best. By the way, most of the treatments they cite are not nice nor do they recommend lifestyle changes only.
            – hep b infection can cause cancer in 10% of people with chronic infection.
            – hep b infection can cause cirrhosis.

            So, yes, they do say that it does not cause dissabilities, but I would consider liver cancer something important and significant.

            And, how can you explain the lifestyles that are so bad for infants???? Formula feeding????

          • Hoter

            “- hep b infection can cause cancer in 10% of people with chronic infection.
            – hep b infection can cause cirrhosis.”

            So 90% don’t get cancer, and why is that? Who has studied those that recover, completely with no sequali. Was it magik?

            We all know that these kids are living in hellish situations with crap parenting, it is not proportionate to jab everyone, using this as the standard.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Would you mind answering the questions??? Looks like either you have no interest in the discussion or you simply ignore it when you hear something that makes you look like a fool.

            Bad parenting… That is a joke, isn’t it? Because then, why hep B is a problem in very good parenting places? Only because it lets you get an explanation that nobody can measure and only you can approve????

            Why is it that the very site you cite recommends vaccination agaisnt hep B at birth? Why is it that it becomes a chronic disease more in infants and not in adults, when infants are not drinking alcohol, which is your explanation???? Crappy parenting just does not cut it, sorry, and yes, show me those data.

          • Who?

            What’s a few dead poor kids, hey Hoter?

          • Nick Sanders

            We all know that these kids are living in hellish situations with crap parenting,

            More claims, still no proof.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Oh, and they do recommend vaccination, by the way.

          • Roadstergal

            Well, they get the bonus prize of risk of liver damage and/or cancer from all of that binge drinking they did, according to Hodor, that just happens to be associated with Australia antigen in their blood. But it’s totes not HepB.

            It always amazes me, how little the alt med folk think of HepB. Its ability to live on surfaces is utterly insane, very unusual amongst viruses (a spot of contaminated biofluid is still infectious for HepB after the HIV has long died off). The vaccine against HepB is a vaccine against liver failure and cancer. It’s a slam dunk as far as I’m concerned (I got the vaccine).

          • Nick Sanders

            It can live a fucking week? Holy shit. And I had thought the flu virus that could live 2 days on a hard surface was durable.

          • Roadstergal

            At least a week – it can live longer. Some have reported over a month.

          • Nick Sanders

            Can we just have a Noah’s Flood of Lysol? Please?

          • Roadstergal

            Anyone who is surprised by the lovely plummet in the incidence of HBV infection after routine vaccination was instituted in 1991 has not been paying attention… I mean, it’s not like little kids put everything in their mouths.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Hepatoma (the common form of liver cancer) rates have decreased in countries with high endemic rates of hep B and universal vaccination. See, for example, this review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26328023

          • fiftyfifty1

            Umm, because of the people for whom it doesn’t resolve. And because it’s no fun to have even for the ones in whom it does resolve. And because until it does resolve you can spread it to others, especially your own loved ones/close contacts.

          • Hoter

            So because 90% of people recover with no problems you are going to insist that they have a toxic unnecessary vaccine because 10% of people are to fucking stupid to stop drinking and eating shit!

            Brilliant

          • Wren

            The vast majority of infants who acquire HepB develop chronic HepB. They do not recover. A high percentage of children do as well. I’m sure that’s just all the alcohol they are drinking though.

          • MaineJen

            Huh. Silence from Hoter. Who would have thought?

          • Wren

            And the 90% of infants and 30-50% of children who develop chronic HepB? I’m sure it’s the alcohol doing them in.

          • Nick Sanders

            Toxic?

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, all of the ebul toxic side effects. I had the full series and got… uh… a goofy Band-Aid at one visit?

          • Azuran

            To not risk being one of those 10% who get the disease.
            (Or 90%, if you are a baby)

          • Sarah

            In case I’m one of the 10%? Luckily I had the vaccine in childhood.

          • Hoter

            What a ridiculous, paranoid person you must be. Why not cut off your body, in case you get cancer somewhere. Why are all these medics so superstitious? Why is disease in your world bad luck?
            Do you have a tabernacle? Is it because the ‘woo science of medicine’ teaches doctors that getting ill is because of bad luck? All disease is a mystery? We can’t live a long healthy life without fiddling from doctors.

          • Sarah

            Disease in my world is frequently bad luck because I live on this planet. I’m not stupid enough to think what I’m exposed to or how I respond to it is something entirely within my control, though I can understand why that’s an attractive notion to some people. The possibility of dying from a disease you can’t control or protect yourself from no matter how much kale you eat is a frightening one indeed. I wish it didn’t exist, I really do.

            There are certain circumstances in which I might cut off or remove parts of my body if my risk of cancer were high enough, yes. Fortunately I haven’t had to make that decision as I don’t have any of the offending genes as far as I know, and thanks to vaccines, I don’t have to cut anything off to avoid vaccine preventable diseases.

          • Hoter

            Hang on, only 30% of the people with the apparent ‘gene for breast cancer’ get breast cancer. Why don’t you look at the 60% who don’t and see that there is a way? It is crazy to assume it is all out of your control, what scientist told you that rubbish.
            What is scientific or different about bad luck and voodoo? Why on earth is what you are exposed to not in your control, who took that power away from you? Was it believing in the talisman of vaccines?

          • Sarah

            Dude, before giving out advice on this matter you might want to work out what 100% minus 30% is. It ain’t 60%.

          • Who?

            In H’s world it probably is. The problem is you don’t believe it.

          • Sarah

            Deep, man.

          • Hoter

            Just checking you could add up. Now I have your attention, why do you think 100% don’t get breast cancer?

          • Sarah

            Course you were dear. I think 100% don’t get breast cancer because the offending gene doesn’t make it a certainty. Fortunately.

          • Who?

            Pathetic.

            Just own your mistake.

          • Sue

            What a load of nonsense this “Hoter” person hoots.

            We know why people get chronic Hep B. It;s called e Antigen.

          • MaineJen

            Wow, really. Please do educate me some more on the very topic I have spent much of my professional life studying.
            #Iworkinimmunogenetics
            #tryagain

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But Jen, he’s “done his research.” How can you top that?

          • MaineJen

            Well, geez. You got me there. I guess all that work, starting way back in 1968 with Paul Terasaki and continuing to the present day with single-antigen antibody ID beads and flow cytometric crossmatching are all for naught.

            I’ll wait, so Hoter can have a chance to Google all that stuff. Maybe he can explain why we give immunosuppressants to transplant patients in the first place. After all, antibodies really don’t mean anything, right? Come to think of it, why do C4D staining either? Antibodies are useless, so why could complement deposition possibly matter?

          • Hoter

            Studying an effect rather than a cause is probably why you can understand, try again.

          • MaineJen

            You have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • demodocus

            I’m pretty sure that’s been long established. Not that I know beans about it either, but then *I* don’t insist I do. Hooray, Mrs. Truman and high school biology for giving me a vague idea.

          • MaineJen

            Also: maybe you could enlighten me as to why all of our patients with anti-HLA antibody tend to reject kidneys with that specific HLA. If it’s not too much trouble. The antibodies we test for seem to make a hell of a difference to them.

          • Megan

            I imagine antibodies also make a big difference to people like one of my patients with CVID as well.

          • Roadstergal

            Or why they form ICs you can see in the biopsy, and fix complement. It’s not ABMR, it’s… Hotor Magic Rejection, or something.

          • yugaya

            Nah that only happens from too much aspirin.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Someone mentioned it the other day, but let me tell you about what is called “Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion” (you can look it up – it’s not just something that refers to here): When in an internet forum discussion, assume that someone participating knows more about the topic than you do.

            For example, this forum has participants that include, inter alia, immunologists. You know, those people who really and truly “do their research” into immunology?

          • Nick Sanders

            They’ve moved into germ theory denialism, what do you expect?

          • Roadstergal

            And not just antibodies. According to Hodor, natalizumab should have no effect on multiple sclerosis or IBD, because it only affects the movement of (mostly) T-cells.

          • Hoter

            Catching disease is a weird medical idea, lots of people have ‘pathogens’ present but no disease, they are not just ‘carriers’, why don’t we study why these people are not succumbing to the pathogen?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, I found exactly one place with that quote, and it was a crank site. Never mind the centuries of empirical proof we’ve had since Virchow’s day, whether he said that or not.

          • Sue

            “Hoter”- you’re stomping around on the blog site of a person trained as a medical specialist, and where many others are clinicians, scientists and academics.

            It looks very silly when you pontificate in an area you know so little about.

            “Orthodox” medical science DISCOVERED the immune system, and continues to define and explore the way it works.

          • Hoter

            Sue – medical science seems to spend lots of time finding ways to turn of the immune system as treatment! It is rather funny that the site is SOB, son of a bitch – kind of says something about the author.

            Bankers discovered credit, doesn’t mean they have a clue about it though.

            If this is the blog of a medical professional, we are all in the shit. I cannot believe the banality of the level of discussion on this blog. No wonder they kill so many people with blunders.

          • Hoter

            So if not, what is it?

          • Nick Sanders

            A system for responding to pathogens, foreign materials, and the occasional mutated cell.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            You have not treated a lot of inmunocompromised patients, have you? Because you sound like someone that has absolutely no idea how that works.

            And, by the way, where did that number came from? How do you get to the 18 million inmunosupressed people? What sort of patients do you count there? Is it chemotherapy treatments? Liver transplant? Kidney transplant? Bone marrow transplant? methotrexate for treating rheumathoid arthritis? Because let me tell you, those people do have very little in common and the sort of infections they are prone to are very different.

          • Roadstergal

            Ya, he’s not terribly smart nor knowledgeable. As another example, rituximab is technically ‘immunosuppressant,’ but immunities that existed prior to treatment are generally pretty well preserved (it does a poor job of depleting memory cells in tissue and doesn’t touch long-lived bone marrow plasma cells).

          • KarenJJ

            A lot of my family members take an immunoupressant medication (one of the biologics). It suppresses a very small part of the immune system. IgG etc are still going strong and we are fully vaccinated. We are tested and hold immunities and vaccines well. Just have one of those overachieving inflammatory systems that likes to cause havoc with other stuff.

    • Hoter

      This is woo. No one catches pertussis.

      • Nick Sanders

        Then how do they get it?

        • Roadstergal

          Drinking and bad diet. It’s how Heather’s little baby got it, duh.

  • Houston Mom

    Has anyone posted this yet. http://simplyborn.com/events/vaccine-informational-class The page seems to be down. I saw it last night. Apparently in January of 2015, Heather was teaching a vaccine class.

    “This class will be presented by Heather Dexter, Naturopathic Doctor, Holistic Doula and Bradley Birth Educator of Earth Mother’s Natural Health & Birth Services.

    Have you ever wondered why some parents may choose not to Vaccinate their kids? Have you Done your research? Do you know the Legalities of Vaccines in Michigan? Do you know the ingredients in Vaccines and what they are known to cause in the human body? Are you aware of the potential risks or side effects of Vaccines? Did you know that there are MANY natural alternatives to Vaccinations? Have you considered that Vaccinate is not synonymous with Immunize? Have you ever considered the risk of getting the virus’s or bacteria that we vaccinate for and looked into symptomology and realized, they aren’t that scary?”
    So for Heather, the symptomology of her children’s pertussis was “that scary”??? I can’t even get it out of the Google cache now except for text only. Here’s an image (hope it uploads ok).

    • MaineJen

      Wasn’t this the *very same time* that all 3 of her children were suffering (and I do mean suffering) from pertussis? I wonder how many of her students knew that?

      • Cathy
        • Hoter

          Nice appeal to emotion. But the white coat is now synonymous with fraud and dishonesty, especially focused blondes and techno jargon. They need to update this if they want to optimize market share.

          Perhaps if they had her on all fours, with her tongue out it would be more honest and definitely more eye catching. We’d at least find out if she was a real blonde or not – what do you think? Are you?

          • Sarah

            Your mum is.

          • Nick Sanders

            There’s nothing to be gained by sinking to Hoter’s level.

          • Sarah

            I respectfully disagree.

          • Who?

            Thing is, Hoter is an idiot. It’s best to never argue with idiots: they just drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

            If the goal is to engage fence sitters, Hoter is a waste of time as bait-who will feel the urge to support his moronic views?

          • Sarah

            My view, gleaned from many years of arguing on the internet, is that it’s best to meet trolls with trolling. You’re talking about someone who asked a poster if she was frotting a dildo (or was it felching? something like that anyway) in her avatar. There had already been a number of replies by this point, attempting to engage, so the wall of silence was no longer an option. Hence, when met by someone who is hiding under a bridge, pee on their head.

          • Who?

            Fair enough.

          • Roadstergal

            I just saw that. I was out of town this weekend and missed it all!

          • Hoter

            Not at all. When people are obviously quoting biased medical crap and are not prepared to discuss the fallacy of medical peer review, they are total assholes and need telling. The classic septic position has always been one of aggression and ridicule, rather than logical engagement, because medical supremacy is failing at the expense of the population.

            If someone pees on a head, they deserve a large piece of wood up the jacksie. I mean whooping cough vaccine is utterly utterly a failure, rates of whooping cough have been steadily climbing since the 90’s and this is in a largely vaccinated population.

            Keep your head in the sand, but don’t expect others to follow. You septics must be deaf dumb and blind or working in medical research and keen to get promotion. There is no other explanation, how on earth can you blindly follow medical peer review when the editors of these journals are openly telling us that it is all bullshit PR. without this you have absolutely nothing.

            You engage, without polemic and a desire to learn something and I will happily drop the toilet brush.

          • Sarah

            The only thing anyone here would learn from you is how to hang around under a bridge.

          • Hoter

            You are the one engaged in a nightmare fantasy of delusion and denial, if that stinks, don’t blame it on me. Who posts on a site called SOBitch and expects to be taken seriously?

          • Sarah

            Your face.

          • Nick Sanders

            Steadily climbing because more and more people are forgetting what whooping cough used to be like, and refusing the vaccine, like you. It’s nowhere near where it was before the vaccine.

            http://holisticsquid.holisticsquid.netdna-cdn.com/holistickidwordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pertussis-vaccine-control-cdc12.jpg

          • Hoter

            This is doctor’s notifications Nick, it is totally open to bias on reporting otherwise known as passive reporting. The mortality graphs give the true picture. Even on this graph you can see now that rates are starting to go back up, 40,000 cases. Most of these are happening in totally vaccinated cohorts.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, I can see they are going back up, and I explained why. But please, if you insist, offer some evidence that the increase is mostly in vaccinated individuals.

          • Hoter

            81% of children with whooping cough were fully vaccinated and highest incidence of disease was in the fully vaccinated group.
            Clinical Infectious Diseases Advance Access published March 15, 2012

            During 2010, California experienced the largest epidemic of pertussis in 53 years. Statewide, the incidence was 20 cases per 100,000 people. [12] This is the highest rate in California since 1958, when there was an incidence of 26 cases per 100,000. [12] Marin County had the second highest incidence in the state, with 136.48 cases per 100,000 people.

            [12]San Rafael Kaiser Permanente Medical Center was at
            the epicenter of this epidemic. In reviewing
            cases confirmed at our medical center during this outbreak, we noted effective protection of younger children. Our unvaccinated and under-vaccinated population did not appear to contribute significantly to the increased rate of clinical pertussis. Surprisingly, the highest incidence of disease was among previously vaccinated children in the eight to twelve year age group.

          • Nick Sanders

            Ok, so you have proven that in one particular outbreak most of the children were vaccinated. One data point does not make a trend.

          • Wren

            Whooping cough immunity, whether acquired via the disease itself or vaccination, is not lifelong.

          • Hoter

            That is interesting Wren. It’s a bollocks statement you have posted. One would ask then ‘what is the point of getting the vaccine?’

          • Wren

            Infants and young children are most at risk of death or permanent injury from pertussis. Stopping them getting it is benefit enough.

          • Hoter

            It is just so sad that you think the only thing that protects anyone from illness is medicine. You are so in the dark ages and behind.

          • Wren

            Yes, vaccines and not losing multiple children to illness before the age of 5 is just so dark ages. It’s the hallmark of the period.

          • Hoter

            It is remarkable how malnutrition, sewage and water infrastructure, central heating and better town planning don’t feature on the vaccine believers’ radar, We got rid of plague by demolishing slums and opening up cities – where were the antibiotics and vaccines then?

          • Wren

            There is no one who doubts those had effects, but oddly none of those eliminated small pox but vaccination did. Funny that, huh?

          • Hoter

            Who told you that septic meme, vaccination didn’t get rid of smallpox, Jenner didn’t think so, jeez, it is so tiring reading the banal incoherence in your posts.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            It was clearly the clean water and healthy diet. Duh!

          • Nick Sanders

            A decade or so of protection per shot is the point. Maybe you should ask why you bother eating, if you’re just going to be hungry again later.

          • Hoter

            This graph is worthless, it is MD notifications and totally open to practitioner bias. Look at mortality graphs, you get the real picture. Please don’t use appeals to notification as evidence.

          • Sarah

            The toilet brush is lodged in your brain.

          • yugaya

            Full plate of ignorance served with a side dish of utter misogyny.

          • Who?

            So far we have racism, misogyny, physical characteristics and appearance and his idea of what sounds ‘well educated’ to him that Hoter uses to draw his conclusions: my guess is that’s how he ‘does his research’-by looking at people and agreeing with the ones he approves of the look of.

            It’s a method, but not a good one.

          • SporkParade

            I just want to go to a dance club so I can hear this “techno jargon.”

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, now you have gone from showing your ignorance of science and history to showing you are just all around ignorant. Nice

          • MaineJen

            w…t…f

          • Hoter

            I know, they always use some pretty sheek geek slim blonde to show the ‘proper science’. Someone should call them out on it.

          • MaineJen

            So. Attractive women can’t do science, according to Hoter. Got it, everybody? That is the sum-total of information Hoter gleaned from the above meme.

          • Hoter

            Why do they use a picture of some fictitious person looking all sciency? I didn’t post the picture, one of your buddies did. We all know sex sells, it just seems very inappropriate here and I find it weird you find it acceptable.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Well, you know, we have brains under the hair. Even if we are blonde. Working inside a lab, without direct sunlight helps to keep your skin without wrinkles by the way.

          • Lala

            You know what’s funny? That actually looks just like my friend Meg. She happens to be blonde, and attractive, but she does neuroscience, not immunological research–is that okay in your book? Or is it just hot blondes that can’t do immunology?

          • Linden

            It’s great when misogyny is the excremental filling that holds together the twin sponges of ignorance and dishonesty. Enjoy your Victoria sponge alone, please.

          • Hoter

            I suppose you are right, an unshaven bloke with tatoos just wouldn’t pull the punters in, nor would someone who was dark skinned either. Eat humble pie.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Wow, an idiot, a mysognist, AND probably an anti-semite. Triple whammy! Not that I’m surprised.

          • Hoter

            It is hard to support using sex to sell vaccines and also to warm to a religious group that cuts the end of the penis off from new born babies for ‘religious reasons’. This is real child abuse, have you still got your foreskin?

          • Nick Sanders

            using sex to sell vaccines

            Please, now you’re just getting desperate.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, man, I wish they would. I mean, I get the flu vax every year and all of my boosters on schedule, but I wouldn’t say no to getting some nookie as a bonus. Better than a Barney Band-Aid.

    • Bugsy

      Well, in all fairness, as soon as I see “Done your research” in capitals then I know it’s a legitimate science- and evidence -based class!

  • Tess

    Another one. It is almost a contest, the sicker your kids the more points you get for being “natural.” http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2013/10/31/when-you-play-the-vaccine-odds-and-lose/

    • An Actual Attorney

      Classy how she works in product placements too.

    • Hoter

      That would make the millions of kids on asthma inhailers and epi pens top healthy, well done.

      • Sarah

        Well bum.

        • Hoter

          Is that really all you have to offer? do you have kids or are you just a loner

          • Sarah

            It’s all you’re worth. Check my posting history if you want to know how many kids I have.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        That is not at all how it works.

    • sdsures

      Gosh. I was a 28-week preemie. My mom went for all the medical treatments the NICU and pediatrician could give to ensure my survival and good QoL. Silly her. I must be an anomaly.

  • sdsures

    I guess fatherly intuition (you know, the other parent who is so much less important than Heather) doesn’t count. Shame on him, trying to save his children’s lives like that!

    • Cathy

      I hope he divorces her. Dad has a rock-solid case for sole custody.

      • sdsures

        Pity that what we know about him only gets filtered through her words.

        • Box of Salt

          sdsures “Pity that what we know about him only gets filtered through her words.”

          Her words indicate he took no action to provide appropriate medical care for his children.

          • sdsures

            Or she prevented him from doing so.

          • Who?

            He’s an adult. At some point, unless she tied them all up, threatened them with a weapon, or otherwise physically detained them in some way, he could have chosen to do something.

            I know it would have been really hard, and might have felt like a marriage-ending activity, but the reality is lives were at stake. At some level he chose domestic peace, in terms laid out by her, over three lives.

      • Katia

        I have to disagree, Cath. He didn’t get any care for them. He let her go ahead with her craziness.

        • Nick Sanders

          I think a better case would be made for foster care.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            It’s unlikely they would be removed to foster care and, frankly, that’s not what anybody wants for kids, including the social workers who do the removing. If they were to be removed from the home, they’d probably be placed with family members–possibly the grandparents, at least one of whom seems to have some sense.

        • Cathy

          Good point.

    • Katia

      What’d he do?

  • sdsures

    This is horrific. Can’t she be charged with negligence? Parental neglect?

    • FigaroPho

      I think the definitions of child abuse and neglect in the Michigan Child Protection Law (which I’ve posted below in quotes) indicate that she could be charged. She failed to provide adequate medical care and then IMO subjected them to maltreatment by inflicting enemas on them while they were seriously ill and there is no conceivable way that enemas could help their condition.

      “Child Abuse: Harm or threatened harm to a child’s
      health or welfare that occurs through non-accidental physical or mental injury, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, or maltreatment, by a parent, a legal guardian, or any other person responsible for the child’s health or welfare or by a teacher, a teacher’s aide, or a member of the clergy.

      Child Neglect: Harm or threatened harm to a child’s
      health or welfare by a parent, legal guardian, or any other person
      responsible for the child’s health or welfare that occurs through either of the following:

      Negligent treatment, including the failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care.

      Placing a child at an unreasonable risk to the child’s health or
      welfare by failure of the parent, legal guardian, or other person
      responsible for the child’s health or welfare to intervene to eliminate
      that risk when that person is able to do so and has, or should have,
      knowledge of the risk.”

      • Daleth

        Does anyone know where in Michigan she is?

      • sdsures

        This was not an accident, if I uderstood her blog post correctly. She knew damned well what she was doing.

        In my view, it’s as abusive as when a Christian Scientist family refuses to get their child medical treatment that would either repair injuries or save their lives.

        Example: My mom had a schoolmate whose parents were Christian Scientists. The friend broke her collar bone (circumstances unknown, late 1950s-early to mid 1960s).

        The parents never took her to the ER or to the doctor, and as a result, it healed improperly. 🙁

        I don’t have personal or professional experience with a broken collar bone, but it sounds very painful. I’ve only had a few minor fractures, and they were not fun, but I had decent medical care and pain relief.

      • Katia

        Having worked with the child protection people (not FOR them mind you) years ago, I think that unfortunately what would happen is they would say the kids are OK now so they’re not going to do anything. JMO. I’m not a lawyer.

  • FortyMegabytes

    Looks like she removed the revised, softer version of her post. It seems like she realized that no version of the events can make her look less like a monstrously bad parent.

    • sdsures

      Replace “monstrously bad parent” with “criminal who needs to be arrested”, and I’m with you. Let’s call her out for what she is.

  • Alyson Trent

    I am honestly curious as to why she believes that vaccinated children were spreading the whooping cough in her area.

    • yentavegan

      because her truth does not belong to all of humanity?

      • Hoter

        Nor do your lies

    • demodocus

      Everyone knows vaccines shed for, like, years. Natch.

  • Grace Adieu

    “My children developed REAL and TRUE immunity from being exposed to this bacteria and fighting it off naturally.”

    Talk about closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

    Medical neglect aside, how is it not child abuse to force enemas on your desperately sick children?

    • Who?

      And quite how putting things in through the out door-whatever those things comprise-is natural is a bit challenging as well.

    • KarenJJ

      Yes. Trying to give my sick kids a panadol suppository was tough at times. Once they got past toddlerhood I’d ask them first and give them the option of suppository or the liquid suspension. Doing enemas on a sick kid sounds horrific. Poor kids..

      • NoLongerCrunching

        I had to give doctor-prescribed enemas to my 5-year-old due to idiopathic constipation/encopresis. I cried after each and every one. Thankfully now we have an effective top-down solution.

    • sdsures

      I can’t help but wonder if Heather is stuck in what used to be called the “anal” stage of psychosexual development, and that’s why she insisted on giving her sick kids enemas when there was absolutely no medical justification for it whatsoever.

      “Sigmund Freud proposed that if the child [in this case, Heather] experienced sexual frustration in relation to any psychosexual developmental stage, he or she would experienceanxiety that would persist into adulthood as a neurosis, a functional mental disorder.” (Wiki: psychosexual development)

      As you might expect from modern psychology and psychiatry, this process and teaching of this theory gradually faded over time as regards to practice and working with patients. It’s now mainly taught as part of introductory psychology and psychiatry courses to familiarize students with the history of the field. For example, Freud’s theories on human psychological development helped shape those of Erikson.

      Erik Erikson was a developmental psychologist who came up with the psychosocial developmental theory of humans. This has much less of the psychosexual aspect to it, but what both Freud and Erikson share is material relating to the id, the ego and the superego.

      • cateye

        While there are are rarely, if ever, medical reasons for enemas, in this case her ND advised her to do it.

        • sdsures

          Somehow, I’m thinking a Naturopathic Doctor isn’t a real MD.

          • cateye

            Agreed. I was just arguing against her thought process being “Oh. You’re sick? Great! I can give you an enema/I have an excuse to give you an enema.”

    • Azuran

      I love the part where they talk about their natural and true immunity.

      You voluntarily expose your kid to a disease…….so that they can catch the disease, and then get sick so they can develop immunity against the disease?
      So, you gave a disease to your kid so they wouldn’t get the disease?

      It’s like they took the old chickenpox principle many parents and grandparents had before there was a vaccine: ‘Everyone get’s chickenpox and the older you are the more dangerous it’s gonna be so you should make sure you get it early’. And then they applied it to every single disease out there.

  • seekingbalance

    just got the new JAMA in the mail today. research article: “Hospital-Diagnosed Pertussis Infection in Children and Long-term risk of Epilepsy.” I haven’t read the article yet (to scrutinize the methods), but I’ll share the conclusion posted in the abstract (spoiler alert!). Risk of epilepsy *is* increased in kids with hospital-diagnosed pertussis…. {sigh} yet another downside to failing to protect your family from preventable diseases. these poor kids.

    ETA: oops, sorry. just saw that a few of you already noted that. I read a bunch of the comments yesterday but was intimidated by the almost 600 that are now here. my bad!

    • Katia

      Not bad at all. Different people see different parts of this board. It doesn’t hurt for things to be repeated. H*ll, the anti-vaxers do it all the time!

      • seekingbalance

        ahh, good point. wait, was I just compared to an anti-vaxer????!!!!?? 😉

        • Katia

          No, no, no and NO! I did not mean it that way.

          • seekingbalance

            just teasing. see winky-smiley face! 🙂

  • Sue

    Will this family volunteer their children for that (supposedly) long-awaited health study comparing the health of the vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

    (Or should we just accept the established findings that unvaxed kids get more VPDs, and worse cases?)

  • Sue

    Meanwhile on Like-Minded Mamas…recipe for caramel popcorn, claiming “You will not find any sugar, high fructose corn syrup or artificial flavors here! ”

    So – you ask, how can you make caramel without sugar?

    Here is the recipe:

    Love
    ¾ Cup Non-GMO Heirloom Popcorn Seeds
    1 Tablespoon Butter or Coconut Oil
    ½ Cup Butter
    ½ Cup Raw Local Honey
    2 Tablespoons Unsulfured Blackstrap Molasses
    1 Teaspoon Cinnamon
    1 Teaspoon Unrefined Salt

    Cos, if it’s HEIRLOOM corn, RAW LOCAL honey and UNSULFURED molasses, it has to be good for you, no? None of that evil, toxic fructose stuff…no..wait…

    • Who?

      This makes me nuts. My yoga teacher is forever going on about not eating sugar, being really careful about fruit intake so as to not have too much sugar, but then cooks with the things you mention, coconut sugar (no I’m not joking) and who knows what other ‘natural’ sweeteners, including stevia.

      She assures me this is all fab, including the stevia which has terrible aftertaste.

      • Stevia may taste awful, but it doesn’t have calories.

        • Who?

          Nothing with stevia has any calories at all for me, since I won’t eat it 😉

          • Hoter

            Hey who, way to go.

      • Dana Carpender

        I didn’t use stevia for years because of the bitterness. I’ve found that the liquid stevia extracts are actually quite good in many applications; I often combine them with erythritol.

    • Megan

      Meanwhile, by my calculations, that recipe contains 169g of sugar. Not sure what the serving size is but I know if it were me, I’d eat the whole thing. 🙂

      • demodocus

        If memory serves, 1/4 cup of kernels is a serving, so 3-ish?

        • Megan

          So just over 56g of sugar per serving. Yeah that sounsd healthy…right up there with a large Mountain Dew. *headdesk*

          • Katia

            About 240 calories of sugar by my “mental math”.

      • Hoter

        hey way to go dork

    • Roadstergal

      But it’s honey and molasses fructose, which is totally different from Evil Corn Fructose! Man, non-GMO popcorn – does teosinte pop?

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        Honey has natural high fructose sucrose.

        • Hoter

          Natural honey, non heated, doesn’t run. It is also alive with enzymes. The processed crap you are mentioning may indeed be chemically the same, but the stuff straight out of the comb is not.

          It is like pasterised milk, sterile and dead and useless nutritionally. Raw milk, but has to be clean, is a different product.

          Why is it so many of you are food illiterate? It is making your posts read like first grade rejects

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I guess when you are completely lost reality looks really foreign.

          • Tiffany Aching

            You do realize that you sound like a complete nutjob and actually help people here proving their point?

      • Petra Lorre

        Ack! Molasses IS sugar! What an ostrich. Molasses is just cane syrup that’s been cooked longer, pretty much.

        • Hoter

          No it isn’t, it is the stuff straight out of the cane sap, crystallized you jerk.

          • Azuran

            hum, no, molasse is a by-product of the refining of sugar cane or sugar beets into sugar.

          • Petra Lorre

            Yeah, I just googled it and it seems that the molasses is what’s left after sugar crystals are removed from the boiled syrup. Either way, what makes molasses sweet is still sugar as it still contains sucrose, glucose, and fructose.

          • Petra Lorre

            Ah, I see. It’s something my grandmother told me, but she was a kid when she’d lived on a sugar cane farm, so I guess she got her wires crossed. I am curious though, why does having been mistaken about molasses make me a jerk?

            Edit: Never mind.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            You weren’t even wrong. Cane juice is what comes directly out of the cane. Blackstrap molasses is what’s left after the sugar refining process, basically.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Your ignorance is boundless. No, blackstrap molasses is not what comes directly out of the cane. It is the byproduct of the sugar refining process. What comes directly out of the cane is cane juice which is thin, light green, and can be drunk straight.

    • Hoter

      You have missed the point. Black strap molasses is not processed. It is still rich in B vitamins that help the sugars metabolize. Purified sugar, without the black stuff, strips the b vits out of your kid to stop the sugar fermenting and that is why the former doesn’t have the same hyper effects that the latter does.

      Try it – it works, but don’t expect to find an industry funded paper on it.

      • Katia

        But you’d have to consume gallons of it to get sufficient vitamins.

        • Hoter

          You have missed the point. Unrefined sugar has nutrition in it, the refined white stuff is poisonous.

          Also who eats that soley for vitamins, it would be part of a balance diet you twit.

          • Katia

            Unrefined sugar has few nutrients in the quantities generally consumed.

          • Hoter

            The big issue is the amount of refined white sugar and corn syrup that is added to food to up the ‘yummy’ factor. This has been allowed to creep up and needs to change because the biggest killers heart disease and diabetes are directly related to diet. If you sort your sugar intake out, cholesterol falls – statins are a total bullshit diversion

          • Nick Sanders

            And this recipe is any different?

          • Hoter

            Hi Nic, glad to see you almost got a sentence out. I think they need to pay better orators, the previous one seemed to scramble their metaphors. Do you believe in vaccination?

          • Nick Sanders

            About as much as I “believe” in the internal combustion engine or microchips.

          • Box of Salt

            Hoter “Unrefined sugar has nutrition in it, the refined white stuff is poisonous.”

            “Also who eats that soley for vitamins, it would be part of a balance diet”

            If your diet is balanced, why would you need to eat molasses for the extra B vitamins?

            Is it hard work being this gullible?

      • Nick Sanders

        It’s still sugar, therefore, the claim that “You will not find any sugar, high fructose corn syrup or artificial flavors here!”is patently false.

      • Petticoat Philosopher

        Of course it is processed. Do you think it grows out of the ground as blackstrap molasses?

        Vitamins are good but there are other foods to get them from. A high-sugar food is a high-sugar food and too much is not advisable, no matter the source.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Actually, it doesn’t sound half bad as a recipe, if you remove all the woo bits. (I get my popcorn from commercial sources and neither know nor care whether it was produced via controlled or random mutations). But it’s a sweet, a dessert, a high sugar dish, no matter how you look at it. The claim that it’s without sugar is ridiculous.

  • areawomanpdx

    I think she’s deleted the Facebook page where people were reviewing her abject quackery.

    • Karen in SC

      Good. Hit ’em where it hurts, the wallet.

  • Roadstergal

    Let me guess – the imaginary ‘toxins’ in vaccines are worse than the _actual_ pertussis toxin. Which the kids spent months flooded with.

    “Like-minded moms” – assuming facts not in evidence, with that name.

    • KarenJJ

      I’m hoping that there’s not a lot of like-minded moms like her.

    • Hoter

      Are you frotting on a dildo in your avatar? Is that where you got your name?

  • Daleth
    • Nick Sanders

      I posted that earlier today 🙂

    • Who?

      Yes but they got it natcherally. So that’s okay.

      Just imagine what she and her naturopath buddies will do to deal with their epilepsy should they be so unfortunate as to be inflicted with it.

      • Nick Sanders

        Probably cannabis oil, since it apparently cures everything.

        • Who?

          A children’s hospital here is going to do a study on cannabis oil, will be interesting to see how it goes.

          Remember 5 years ago when fish oil cured everything, and prevented many more things? Will be interesting to see if cannabis oil goes the same way.

          • Sue

            I suspect there will be no miracles. Like morphine, cannabis is a psycho-active substance that binds intrinsic receptors. That doesn’t make it a “cure” for anything, but it may suppress seizures, as benzodiazepines do.

          • Roadstergal

            It cures my cupboard of excess corn chips.

        • Houston Mom

          I googled naturopathic treatment for epilepsy. Looks like supplements, detoxification, avoiding sugar, artificial sweeteners, gluten, dairy and various forms of radiation. So if one of them is unfortunate enough to have epilepsy, it’s going to be another bout of medical neglect. I would wonder if Heather would find an excuse to throw in more enemas and tongue cutting.

          • Sue

            Aren’t “supplements, detoxification, avoiding sugar, artificial sweeteners, gluten, dairy” the naturopathic cures for everything?

            Just roll the dice, pick one. Or many.

          • Dana Carpender

            She’d need to drop the grains and “natural” sugars, too. A ketogenic diet does, indeed, have a long history of treating seizures.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            There is something natural that helps with some forms of epilepsy extra dietary fat. You still need medication though.

  • kellymbray

    Looks like the original post is back. Can anyone else see this?

    http://likemindedmamas.com/natural-remedies-whooping-cough/

    • Chi

      Confirmed, I can access it.

      • kellymbray

        Her ego will not let her delete it.

        • Chi

          Yep. She needs the affirmations from other crunchy idiots to make herself feel good about the whole thing.

          I hope she still feels good when CPS shows up on her doorstep.

          • Bugsy

            Agreed. The other crunchy moms also probably encouraged her to repost it – “don’t let the bullies and online trolls win out when _you_ are following your mama bear instinct!”

    • yugaya

      With footnotes. She’s a parody of a decent human being.

    • Charybdis

      It’s been edited. She removed the part where her dad tells her that it is now time for antibiotics and the part where she packs up the kids and her myriad of natural remedies and heads off to her parents house so she can have four extra hands to dose her kids with an incessant, never-ending round of remedies and enemas.

      • Who?

        How did Grandad not abduct the kids and take them to the doctor/hospital?

        Seriously, I’d do it and suck up the consequences.

      • Chione

        Hmm. There was earlier some discussion about vets and their status as mandatory reporters, could it be that some of the backlash is actually reaching her parents? She’s a sad, deluded fool though, if she thinks that there aren’t already myriad copies of the original text floating around the internet.

      • kellymbray

        I have a google cached link to the original. Let me find it.

      • Fallow

        People need to fill the comments with links to the original. I’d do it myself, but I’d have to look at those idiotic supportive you-go-momma comments while I was there. Can’t do. I’m concerned my blood pressure is already too high today.

      • areawomanpdx

        It’s like the time Modern Alternative Mama told the Internet she would be OK if her daughter died, as long as she still had her son, because her daughter was born via cesarean and then reconsidered when the Internet realized what an awful human being she was. She edited, but the original version was still everywhere. The internet never forgets, you nitwits.

        • Who?

          I think we’ve all done things it would be kinder for others to forget. For most of us, that doesn’t include gleefully relating child abuse, or conducting a favourites competition among our children, particularly when the desirable attribute has nothing to do with the child, and is, to be blunt, a direct result of our own decision.

          These people are Not Right.

        • Lemongrass

          Do you have a link to the original modern alternative mama post? I’ve only ever seen the heavily edited version 🙁

      • Hilary

        Whatever. She can edit the post all she wants, but she’d have to edit her actual personality and belief system in order not to come off as an abusive idiot.

        • Who?

          To this crowd, she’s an abusive idiot, with a taste for risk where her children are concerned that most of us consider immoderate.

          To her home crowd, she’s a healing hero. Because they don’t think children (or at least, not white, organically grown, gmo averse, whatever else nonsense they’re buying into this week) die or are permanently harmed by these illnesses. They are also very happy to play the martyr/hero/victim (apparently entirely without irony) in the weeks of debilitating illness story.

          I know which crowd I’d rather be in.

          • Sue

            I seems hard to believe that anyone would consider that long, long illness in all three kids to have been modified in any way by her efforts.

          • Chi

            Exactly. She didn’t ‘heal’ anything. Her kids SURVIVED it, which to be blunt seems to be through sheer dumb luck, rather than anything she or her naturopathic doctor did.

            But of course, because her kids got through it without needing ebil ebil shill doctors and the drugs they push, she’s patting herself on the back for keeping it all ‘natural’.

            I’ve used the word disgusting many times to describe it and that’s still how I feel. It’s disgusting that ANY parent could put their own ideals and beliefs above their children’s health and well-being. She’s as bad as parents who believe that prayer can ‘cure’ their insulin dependent child, or the ones who are gullible enough to believe that bleach enemas ‘cure’ autism.

          • Who?

            It’s her truth, Sue, and therefore unassailable by your truth, or mine, let alone by anyone’s actual knowledge to the contrary.

    • yugaya

      She also edited out the most obnoxious self- congratulatory parts like “This mother conquered.”

    • lilin

      I commented. I doubt my comment will make it out of moderation.

      • Hilary

        Ditto.

        • Daleth

          Ditto.

    • Sue

      “MY HUSBAND HAD ALREADY DETERMINED THAT OUR KIDDOS HAD “CAUGHT” THE 100 DAY COUGH…THE WHOOP…PERTUSSIS OR WHOOPING COUGH. WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. AGAIN, HE WAS RIGHT AND I… I WAS IN DENIAL.”

      So much for the clinical skills of this “certified naturopath”

      • Sue

        And this, from a person purporting to be a health care provider:
        “Part of me felt blind-sided and hurt, unsupported and ready to blow…that was the exhausted me. I took a deep breath and looked away, thinking before I spoke. I knew he had always been and still is the logical one. I react emotionally, instinctively, often times before my mind has fully connected with my words. My truth just seems to spill easily from my mouth, a lot of times without the sweetness of being sugar-coated… just bluntness, pure honesty. However, I have learned that my truth does not belong to all of humanity. Each person is entitled to their beliefs and logic or training.”

        • Sue

          “it is just a super slow process due to the lack of experience, or on the job training, done by their immune systems”

          Exactly. Because they HADN’T BEEN VACCINATED!!

          Vaccination: on-the-job training for a child’s immune system while sparing them the full force of the infection.

          • Sue

            “This was the point in time when I was under the impression that I could not be my family’s doctor. I hadn’t considered taking each child and creating a program that was the most conducive to their individual healing. Today, I truly believe differently. Lesson learned. I believe that no one is better equipped to be the family doctor than Mama or Grand-mamma, given the right training.”

            Highly unprofessional AND insightless.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            In general, most doctors feel it’s better not to treat their own family as it’s impossible to be truly objective in that situation.

          • Sue

            Indeed. It’s recommended by regulators that they don’t.

          • Dr Kitty

            I *will* look at tonsils, rashes and tympanic membranes, dip urines and listen to chests for my husband and kids…purely to determine if we need to go to see the doctor or not ( because I’m not wasting everyone’s time with simple viral infections).

            I don’t prescribe ANYTHING for them (or me) and if our Dr doesn’t think they need something, they don’t get it.

            You cannot treat your family properly, because you cannot be objective.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            I must admit that I did give my husband an antibiotic prescription for the pretty nasty tonsillitis he had a while back, but if there were any signs of complications or it not working, I would have marched him straight off to another doctor. It was hard enough to get him to take a day off work, let alone go to a GP (he’s also a doctor and therefore a terrible patient). I don’t plan on doing anything beyond what you’ve listed for my son – I have virtually no paeds experience and would far prefer to see a GP than take any risks.

          • Dana Carpender

            How about complicated viral infections? 🙂

            My childhood pediatrician gave my mother this rule of thumb: If the patient feels considerably better during the day, worse at night, it’s probably a virus. If they feel equally wretched ’round the clock, it’s probably bacterial. Not graven in stone, but it’s been a useful metric.

          • Hoter

            I got vaccinated for whooping cough and I got whooping cough, I am not alone.

          • Nick Sanders

            And some people have caught it “naturally” more than once. What’s your point?

          • Hoter

            Uh, Nick, forgive me If I misunderstand your confusion. Whooping cough vaccine doesn’t work, it never has, we have a cycle,every 3.4 years. That means it isn’t working. How do you spin it?

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove there’s a cycle.

          • Azuran

            And prove that this ‘cycle’ affect vaccinated and unvaccinated people equally. Totally possible that you got the vaccine and then had whopping cough. Doesn’t prove that the vaccine is totally useless 100% of the time. It just means that it’s not effective 100% of the time. Which, surprise, is common knowledge.

          • Box of Salt

            Hoter “I got vaccinated for whooping cough and I got whooping cough”

            whole cell P or acellular P vaccine? When was your last booster (before becoming ill).

            How long were you coughing? In weeks, please.

        • Who?

          Defending herself with ‘my truth’.

          So whatever poisonous nonsense floods forth can’t be challenged, because it is her ‘truth’?

          That is grotesque.

    • Wombat

      Ooo my comment is awaiting moderation. I’d wait on bated breath but I’m not into alternative means of ‘loving’ on my death reflexes.

  • kellymbray

    A number of people contacted CPS after reading about this. She left quite a trail and was easy to track down. I hope CPS acts on this and I hope her husband leaves with the kids.

  • Fallow

    Lest we hoped that the cult of Heather Dexter would be at all swayed by the mountains of backlash that she got for criminal child negligence:

    • Nick Sanders

      I think you forgot to include your link.

      • Fallow

        Uploaded a picture with that post. Disqus claims it worked.

        • Nick Sanders

          I can see it now that I’ve refreshed the page. Stupid computers being computers, I guess.

          • Fallow

            Disqus is always foiling me!

    • Bombshellrisa

      How can a quack “help” anything? There was probably nothing wrong in the first place.

    • demodocus

      My pastor helps with my son when I have no-one else. By which I mean she happily baby-sits and took us to the hospital 40 minutes away at midnight. Croup is scary.

      • Gozi

        Ha! Now this is a pastor who really deserves the traditional “Pastor’s Anniversary”!!!!

        • demodocus

          She’s awesome. She’s already volunteered to take me and shortstuff to some of my ob appointments once she retires at the end of the month.

    • Roadstergal

      “Man, it’s like you can’t even make a post about torturing your kids without hearing from all of the _haters_.”

      • lilin

        Don’t you understand! She’s doing everything she can! How many things does she have to jam up her children’s asses until you believe her?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Maybe I would believe her if her kids didn’t suffer much longer than if she had done nothing

    • Who?

      And it is of course *delightful* for this poster that she thinks Heather helped her son.

      But that has nothing whatsoever to do with Heather’s neglect and abuse of her own children.

  • namaste863

    Here’s the million dollar question: This family got incredibly lucky. All three of those kids were at death’s doorstep because their mother decided it was more important to prove a point than to keep them alive. How many other kids, kids too young for vaccines, did this woman unwittingly infect, and how many of them didn’t get so lucky?

    • yentavegan

      Your comment is the most sobering one I have read. We can all lambaste Heather and mock her willful ignorance, but we will never know if her stupidity killed an unwitting innocent bystander.

    • footnotegirl

      Considering that someone found a post on her personal facebook that is dated to the time she said that sickness was going on where she complained that a public school would not let her non-public-school-attending (and pertussis having according to the date stamp vs. the blog post) son go into their gym and play with the children there…. And that she is a doula who probably helped with childbirths for some part of this time? Far, far too many possible exposures.

  • namaste863

    “I just want you to ask yourself… How did people make it through for thousands of years? How did they get through the Spanish Influenza, the Black Plague, fevers and other ailments?”

    THEY DIDN’T, YOU DUMB, DELUDED FUCK!!!!

    • LizzieSt

      In the case of the Spanish Flu, their lungs filled with fluids and they drowned in their own blood. So much for their immune systems.

      • namaste863

        Delightful.

      • Gozi

        Would that be considered “making it” considering she said people made it for thousands of years?

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Actually, a strong immune system was probably the cause of death in a lot of the people that died. That’s why young, healthy people died- they had a cytokine storm that caused out of control inflammation.

        • LizzieSt

          Which makes the mother’s glorification of the abilities of the immune system all the more ironic!

          • Roadstergal

            I hate the phrase ‘strengthen the immune system.’ I always know I’m dealing with someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about when I hear it. I like to say, “Oh, it makes your skin thicker?” That’s part of the immune system, after all… but in general, the various branches all have checks and balances as well as positive feedback loops, and often there are mutual exclusivities.

            That’s one of the things about vaccines – you want to design the antigens and adjuvants to give you the right _kind_ of immune response.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Especially when people say it in relation to allergies or autoimmune conditions!

          • Roadstergal

            Totally.
            Hey, you know what really strengthens the immune system? TGN1412.

          • KarenJJ

            My specialists spend a.c. Lot of time and thousandsn of dollars a year to weaken my immune system. Immune systems can be tricky things.

          • KarenJJ

            Not sure about this new keyboard on my phone..

          • Charybdis

            Sounds like the counterpart to the CPM’s “strong heart tones”. Sounds like it means something, but it doesn’t mean a damn thing.

          • Nick Sanders

            You know what doctors call a “strengthened immune system”? Autoimmune disease.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            To be fair, autoimmune disease is more about dysregulation than strength or weakness of the immune system per se.

            What I find ironic is that alties are always going on about this or that plant “reducing inflammation”. What is inflammation? A major part of the immune response! So if something reduces inflammation it is weakening the immune system (in some sense).

        • KarenJJ

          Yep. Cytokines can get nasty. Inflammatory part of the immune system in overdrive can do heaps of damage.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Well, in this case it was that H1N1 actually has a receptor for lung tissue and the immune system followed it there and caused the damage.

          • Hoter

            This is completely untrue. What killed people was the huge doses of aspirin that were given to people, between 5g and 35g. Those who didn’t get aspirin survived

          • yugaya

            “What killed people was the huge doses of aspirin that were given to people, between 5g and 35g. Those who didn’t get aspirin survived.”

            I always did wonder, with such explicit dominance of the idiotic antivaxx sources in English language, how exactly do people with severely anglocentric and extremely limited worldview just like that extrapolate their misinformation onto the rest of the world. I guess you are a perfect example.

            Majority of people who died during that pandemic in my part of the world never saw any aspirin in their life. Or a doctor.

          • Hoter

            Yeah, bring on the medical revolution, let’s wonder why Swahili isn’t the most useful of languages. So what part of the world do you influence with your prose?

          • yugaya

            “let’s wonder why Swahili isn’t the most useful of languages”

            Dear Racist,
            Thank you for identifying yourself.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            If only you had a single actual fact in your arsenal. You are apparently lost on history, everything to do with biology, and English. I feel really sorry for you

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        A strong immune system actually caused that. This is why more young healthy people died than elderly people.

        • Hoter

          this is more woo history, the age group that got it were young men aged 15 to 35, this was the call up age for the first world war. This group were mega stressed, when they came back on leave, if they survived, they decompressed. Old people and young people didn’t get it because they hadn’t been in the trenches and suffered the stress. Sullivan loves repeating the septic meme on the pandemic saga, it is amazing how he still clings to theories and ideas, the facts are easy to look up.

          • Nick Sanders

            Then why was Spain hit just as badly as everywhere else? No one denies wartime conditions aided transmission and played a factor in soldiers’ health, but Spain was neutral, and it got ravaged too.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            But young women died of Spanish flu in equal numbers, despite not being in the trenches. So how does that work?
            Also, old and young people did get it, they just didn’t die in the same numbers as young adults. My grandmother and her 5 sisters all got it. They all survived, probably because they were children at the time.

    • Chione

      Well, humankind did make it through those things as a species. One would expect a mother to be more concerned about specific individuals making it through, especially since those individuals are her own children, but apparently she has a remarkably wide view of what making it through means.

  • Nick Sanders
  • Gozi

    I know this is a side point, but she said:

    “Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms.”

    Many parents receive a good night of sleep when their children grow up some. It is not because the children are drugged or locked up, it is because the children are HEALTHY.

    • demodocus

      My son has been a good sleeper since the night he was born. No drugs or chains there. hopefully his younger sib will be too!

    • Gozi

      I don’t know if anyone has already mentioned this, but if this Heather happens to develop whooping cough, is she going to tolerate suffering for six months. Look how hard she whined about getting no sleep.

      • Bugsy

        Excellent point.

      • Hilary

        I’m wondering if the reason she didn’t get sick was because she’d received the vaccine at some point … hmmm….

    • somethingobscure

      Right. And what about the poor kids who obviously weren’t sleeping either?? How about “sleep, it’s for those lucky children whose parents actually take care of their health and wellbeing.”

    • footnotegirl

      Yeah. Sleep is for me, who has a vaccinated child who gets regular checkups with our family doctor and gets treated when she is sick and sleeps, quite happily and well, in her own room. I’m such a terrible parent!
      Oh, also! I did have a lock on her door for a while (well, a childproof cover on the inside handle) because kiddo’s bedroom is upstairs and there’s a hella tall hardwood staircase and she likes to climb. WORST PARENT EVER, THAT’S ME.

  • attitude devant

    I’ve been reading this blog for years, and this is the absolute CRAZIEST most SADISTIC “mothering” I have EVER heard of. The woman is certifiable.

    NDs have the craziest ideas. One thing that FLOORS me about NDs is that vaccines and antibiotics are BAAAAADDDD but giving all sorts of animal gland extract is GOOOODDD. I have patients in my practice who are on daily cortisone pills because “My ND says my adrenals are tired.” WTAF? These people have no demonstrable adrenal insufficiency. But they are being given cortisone. What is remotely safe about this practice? And they dose cow thyroid according to symptomatology—like THAT is evidence-based?

    • Bugsy

      Yep. When I was friends w/ Crazy Lactivist a few years ago, I mentioned that my son was undergoing testing for nut allergies. CL’s reply was “I can relate. My husband has developed allergies, too. Only his are the ones you can’t test for. He’s now on a juice fast to avoid allergens that also will make him immune to cancer.”

      In other words, comparing my son’s legitimate allergies to a bunch of ascribed allergies they read about from Mercola (including GMO allergies). Yeah, okay.

      • AirPlant

        I have pretty bad allergies and I take these asshole incredibly personally. They are personally responsible for making my life so much harder than it needs to be.

        • Bugsy

          I completely understand. We’re very thankful that my son’s allergy tests came back negative; we have a lot of friends who deal with their children’s nut allergies on a daily basis. To be compared to fake allergies was, frankly, ludicrous.

      • Medwife

        My mother and I both have eczema. All my life she has pursued various diets and supplements and herbs, right now gluten and dairy are the bad guys, and she thinks avoiding them has helped. I told her the other day that my two chronic inflamed areas have thankfully cleared recently. She said, “Great, what did you do?” As in how did I make that happen. My answer was, “Nothing.” Just like her eczema, mine comes and goes. She’s convinced that every change is caused by her diet and things like “systemic yeast” (such a typical ND diagnosis).

        I have eczema just like her, but at least I still get to eat bread and cheese!

        • SporkParade

          Ayurveda Day 3: “I feel sick. It’s because my body is cleaning out the toxins.” Ayurveda Day 60: “You can tell I wasn’t eating right before because now when I eat what I used to, I feel sick.”

        • mythsayer

          Yup, just like my connective tissue disease is caused by my eating gluten, or carbs, or probably now bacon, or whatever the current bad did is.

          I have told people repeatedly that their implication that I gave myself this disease and refuse to get better by refusing to stop eating gluten et al is super offensive.

          Yes, I LOVE feeling 80 at 37. If gluten were really causing this, I’d stop eating it in a heartbeat. But it’s not causing it. I don’t have celiac disease or even s gluten sensitivity. But the crazies just keep coming up with the idiotic things.

          Even my mom and aunt, who are generally reasonable, bring up random stuff like that (not that, but other crazy crunchy remedies). It makes me want to cry. My aunt swears by this horse liniment spray for pain relief and she talked my mom into believing it, too. I keep telling them lidocaine patches don’t help me so I’m pretty sure the random natural spray won’t either. They also made me try “natural” nerve painkillers….like heather used! Yeah…they don’t work either.

        • Tiffany Aching

          Eczema is a very frustrating because even if you can identify triggers sometimes, most of the time you have no idea why suddenly your skin is inflamed and you’re itching like crazy. Many people have hard time understanding that no, you didn’t anything wrong, and no, your doctor is not incompetent, and that sometimes shut just happens. People hate it when they’re not in control.

      • Charybdis

        How the hell can you have allergies that you can’t test for?

        • Who?

          Very very special people have those kinds of allergies.

          • Charybdis

            Snowflake special?

          • Who?

            Way more special than boring old snowflakes. Sooo last year.

          • Bugsy

            LMAO.

          • Charybdis

            Oh, oh, oh! Genetically modified snowflakes?

          • Bugsy

            They’re modified due to toxins from the chemtrails!!! Help us all!!

          • Who?

            Nailed it.

        • Bugsy

          Great question that I never bothered asking to a gal who also claimed that her son was “allergic to GMOs.” WTF?

          • Charybdis

            You should ask which thing specifically: the Genetically, the Modified or the Organisms.

          • Bugsy

            Or answer D: all of the above. By the time we lost touch, their kid was allergic to GMOs, they’d gotten rid of all plastics and any potential source of radiation (microwaves, ice cube trays) from their house, hubby was on a juice diet that was to make him immune to cancer, and they were trying to move to the South Pacific to escape chemicals in the toxic New England environment. Of course, kiddo was never UTD on vaccinations following his personality shift resulting from the 4-mo vaccines, and she declined most standard prenatal care – including all ultrasounds and glucola – for #2.

            So yep, allergic to all of the above.

          • Linden

            This reminds me of parents I know, who refused to have plastics in anything their toddler could access. One day, they had a tire blowout while going at 90mph (speed limit:70mph). Narrowly avoided a serious smash. Came home. Toddler pulled down bookcases they hadn’t tied back to the wall, spent 4 hours in A&E.
            While being recounted this, I was wondering if I should mention the amber teething necklace around the baby’s neck, an obvious choking hazard.
            Humans: bad at risk assessment.

        • KarenJJ

          Not an immunologist, but allergies are typically IgE mediated and that’s what skin prick tests check for. If another immunoglobulin is involved the IgE test won’t see it. I have reactions to food that tick all the boxes for food allergies. They are immediate, the same food causes the same reaction each time (shell fish makes me very sick whereas I’ve eaten it gone all my life). The symptoms aren’t the generic, bloating/tired whatever, they are very specific. My immunologist agreed its an acquired food allergy. I don’t need Epi-pen because it would be useless and I’m not in danger of anaphylaxis. Immune systems are weird and admittedly mine is weirder than most.

          • Sue

            Good point, Karen, but a competent medical history and examination are also “tests” of a sort.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I have an IgG3 mediated allergy to salicylic acid and some compound salicylates. Aspirin actually gives me pseudoanaphylaxis.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        Speaking of lactivists and the stupid tongue tie story. One of my best friends is a pediatrician. She has been seeing an influx of 4-6 year olds that have speech problems because some lactation consultant cut their tongue tie wrong. Now they need them fixed.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          Are LCs even supposed to cut tongue ties???? I thought that was a pediatric dentist thing only?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Probably not

        • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

          Wait, What!? why would anyone let a lactation consultant perform any medical procedure on their child? And how the hell is that legal? A LC consultant is not what I consider a Health care provider…

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Well, many of them (at least in my area) are also RNs–registered nurses.
            Still doesn’t in the least qualify them to do that kind of thing, of course.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Everything is sacrificed to the promise of successful breast feeding apparently

        • Nick Sanders

          Oh damn, that’s horrible!

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      I just got a TSH of <.0005 on a patient who is being given Armour thyroid by a naturopath. The woman is in her 70s. She going to end up with a-fib or an MI, but damned if she'll listen to me. She will only take advice on this from her naturopath.

      • attitude devant

        Not to mention osteoporosis.

      • Squillo

        It’s certified letter time.

      • Sue

        LOTS of thyroid-adrenal pseudoscience in naturopathy…but coonsumers believe it because they want validation of their fatigue and a “medical” diagnosis.

        Pesky doctors won’t treat their thyroid or adrenal unless the history, examination and tests support the diagnosis.

        • Dr Kitty

          True.
          I’d say that a good 20% of my patients are TATT and looking for a medical diagnosis to explain it.

          Usually all the usual tests ( thyroid, iron, B12, blood count, inflammatory markers etc etc) are normal.
          We then have the ” your test results are reassuring, but not helpful at suggesting a cause, how hard do you want us to keep looking?” conversation.

          At some point we’ll probably agree that maybe the full time job, four kids under 5, husband who drinks too much and doesn’t help with the housework, skipped meals, lack of exercise, dearth of nearby family support, chronic insomnia and financial worries might be more likely to be the cause of the fatigue.

          Not that I can necessarily solve those issues, but it beats aggressively investigating or treating a non existent physical problem.

      • Azuran

        We are even starting to see thyroid problems in cats and dogs caused by ‘natural remedies’ and ‘homeopathy’ people are starting to give their pets….
        But of course, they don’t listen to us either.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        I knew someone who went into a thyroid storm because some quack told her she had hypothyroid when she really had hyperthyroid.

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      Ironically, that’s probably going to cause them to develop adrenal insufficiency (as well as all the various nasty side effects of steroids). I wonder if those NDs have warned these people about the risk of an addisonian crisis or have educated them about sick day rules.

  • Daleth

    I would have called CPS on her if I’d known at the time. Her husband is a coward, and so is her dad.

  • Linden

    She’s obviously bonkers, and her actions are horrific, but WHAT WAS THE CHILDREN’S FATHER DOING all that time?

    • Linden

      WHY trust her, when she’s doing something patently dangerous to their children?

      • AirPlant

        I feel like there has to be more to the “We left for two weeks” story. For a lady with her head jammed so far up her ass it had to have been a hell of a fight to make her peace out for so long. What I want to know is why in the seven hells he took her back after that.

      • yentavegan

        because she breastfed them so she knows better than anyone else what is best for her children. Western medicine is built on oppressive patriarchy.

    • RMY

      It sounded like the father was getting yelled at for voicing any concerns about her plans.

      • Squillo

        Dads can be abused and gaslighted, too.

      • lilin

        Don’t you see how you asking for medical care for our children *hurts me*?

    • mythsayer

      Being ignored when he voiced concerns about the children dying. Valid concerns, I might add.

    • Grace Adieu

      “Voicing concerns” with the lunatic he chose to be the mother of his children instead of putting his kids in the car and taking them to the doctor.

    • Daleth

      Wimping out, neglecting his children, just all-round failing as a father.

  • StephanieA

    I’m late to the game here, but holy sh*t. I just cannot fathom this. At all. If my son told me he was having trouble breathing, we would be at the doctor’s in a heartbeat. That is not something to be taken lightly. God I hate these people.

  • moto_librarian

    Her six year-old will definitely remember being this sick. I was five when I had a bad case of pneumonia, and I still remember the misery. The difference for me is that I know that my parents did everything in their power to make me feel better, including taking me to the damned doctor and giving me antibiotics. If hospitalization had been necessary, they would have done that too. What do you suppose her children will think when they are adults and learn that not only could their mother have prevented them from suffering by having them vaccinated, but at least have minimized the length and severity of their illness with antibiotics? How is this not at minimum child neglect, if not outright abuse? Her children could have died! If I had been her father, I would have reported her to CPS. It’s a shame that her husband didn’t have the stones to do anything to help his children.

    • Ash

      Her kids also will remember getting enemas at least 1x daily in addition to vomiting, coughing, and sniffing essential oils

    • Gozi

      They will definitely remember it if they sustain permanent damage.

    • demodocus

      I remember my las asthma attack when I was 4, including the ride in the ambulance.

    • carovee

      I was pretty young when I had a bad kidney infection and I still remember the pain. Her oldest is definitely going to remember coughing til she puked for months.

  • RMY

    I’m very far from a men’s rights nut, but I really cringe at how fathers (and sometimes non gestational moms) get treated in crunchy circles. They’re basically relegated to bring mother’s helpers who don’t get to make parenting decisions.

    • LizzieSt

      This annoys me too, and I sometimes see it even among non-crunchy types. The father becomes a sperm sac with a wallet attached, and nothing more, assumed to be useless because he’s allegedly not “hardwired to love and care for a child.” How more insulting can you get?

      • RMY

        My parents aren’t crunchy at all, they’re very conservative, and my dad regrets how he focused on work and not as much on raising my brother and me. My mom wasn’t a harmful nut, she was a bit overly religious but not in a weird cult out anything dangerous.

      • demodocus

        Completely explains my husband’s bond with our son the moment he heard the little guy’s heartbeat on the 8 week scan (she wasn’t supposed to turn it on but for the blind guy who was trying so hard to look, she did). Guy’s already half in love with the new one and s/he’s still an embryo.

        • Bugsy

          Oooh, I missed your updates. CONGRATULATIONS!!! When is your EDD?

          • demodocus

            June 14th by my math.

          • Bugsy

            Congratulations, and all the best through your pregnancy. 🙂

          • Charybdis

            Congratulations! That’s my Mom’s birthday.

          • attitude devant

            awesome!

          • LaMont

            Oh yay!! As a Flag Day birth myself, I can say with some authority that it’s a good day to be born 🙂

            Also, goodness, if your husband is a loving person invested in his children, how will you relate to hack comedians, let alone the lactivists/earth-mother-types/APers?

          • demodocus

            I dunno, it’ll be difficult 😉

        • Kelly

          That is the sweetest thing. I am giddy with excitement for you. Congrats!

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          Awwwww!

    • Fallow

      I hear you. I believe it’s a paradoxical outcome from misogynist biological essentialism, that these kinds of women STRONGLY embrace. They converted to a religion that says you need a uterus and working breasts to be a real parent. The underpinnings of their self-image are dependent on that belief. Of course they’re going to decide the fathers’ opinions don’t count.

      I’m of the camp who thinks that the natural/crunchy/attachment ethos is a backdoor method to force women into the Stepford-wife role/domestic sphere, while making them feel like they should want to be there. Then, like all forms of misogyny, it backfires on men as well as women. I bet most men end up finding out they deeply want to be involved with their children, even when they became parents with the idea that mom would do 99% of it all. It’s really not an MRA argument to think this situation is bad; it’s a feminist argument.

      On the other hand, I have also observed fathers in AP situations very
      happily dump all parental responsibility onto the AP mother – because
      they ARE shiftless and uninvolved, and love that their wives have taken
      over all decision-making about their children. So, at least some of the
      men in these relationships are perfectly happy to be a cipher dad.

    • footnotegirl

      Sexism: It hurts everyone. The gender essentialist view is that women are ONLY suited to being mothers, and thus are THE BEST parents, and that men do everything else so much better, but get no voice in parenting (other than a discipline threat and teaching boys how to pee, I guess? Oh, right, and policing their daughters virginity).

      • Roadstergal

        Ugh, that last one. A father can be a great resource for general dating and safe-sex advice, if he has a comfortable relationship with his daughter, but the purity balls/virginity guardian thing is SO creepy.

  • Ugh…

    There is something seriously whacked about wanting your children to suffer through something so that you can blog about it and stroke your own ego, and brag about it. Narcissistic much? The people who have infants or children who are delaying vaccines and/or children who have chronic conditions in which vaccines are best delayed are being made look like morons because of people like this. I personally have a friend who’s son had a vaccine injury. Long story short some children need to have the strength to take certain vaccines at different times, I’m not looking to debate this- but this woman potentially exposed not only her own kids but so many peoples other kids! If your kids aren’t vaccinated, and or/are sick don’t take them around other kids and get other kids sick! I have a one year old and newborn, I do not take them in public unless absolutely necessary to prevent illness, who knows how many kids these kids infected because of their mothers blatant disregard for public health!

    • manabanana

      I don’t know how the administration of enemas to her children cannot be seen as anything but physical abuse (see the cached webpage). This story was horrifying on multiple levels.

      • Empliau

        I know, right? I can’t imagine how bad it was for those poor children to have been coughing and suffering for weeks, and suddenly their mother begins giving them enemas. I swear it’s right out of Sybil. I get queasy just thinking about it.

  • Sue

    So much for the “hundreds of dollars on natural health products and consultations with various Naturopathic Professionals. ”

    It appears that she is not only ignorant about health care, but also gullible.

    ANd clearly, parenting in that family is not a partnership – it is a tyranny of motherhood that discounts the real concern of the children’s father.

  • AdelaideGP

    Bloody hell! That’s a dreadful story, mind boggling how deluded that mother is. I echo all the other comments . Also as a GP , THIS is why I won’t agree to sign the conscientious objection government forms for wacky anti vaxx parents. I explain that the child is actually my patient too and I cannot in good conscience sign something that agrees with endangering their health. This brings irate looks but honestly, the child is the first priority and colluding with these delusional beliefs does them a grave injustice.

    • Megan

      I wish our state’s exemptions weren’t just religious ones. Those don’t even need a doctor’s signature. If they did I might have some more leverage with these parents. But anyone can just say, “this goes against my religion” even though there is no religion that actually disagrees with vaccination.

      • Angharad

        My religion specifically requires all missionaries to be vaccinated before they serve abroad. I’ve seen several antivaxxers complaining that the church won’t accept a religious exemption from this requirement. Presumably they think our church doesn’t know its own position on vaccines.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          Eh, if it makes you feel any better, my church (Catholic) issued an explicit directive that while they’d really, REALLY like vaccine lines that didn’t use aborted fetal tissue to be available, and if those lines are available, they should be used rather than those which did use AFT, the official position is “the AFT vaccines aren’t an ideal situation, but in the absence of one, use them. Also, if you don’t, you’re somewhat morally responsible for abortions procured by moms who find out they were exposed to rubella if you or your kids exposed them.”
          Despite this, there’s a small-yet-vocal contingent that insists that Good Catholics (TM) can’t get the MMR vaccine because of aborted fetal tissue. A few even insist that that letter actually says the exact opposite of what it says.
          In short, I thought you might appreciate knowing that your church doesn’t have a monopoly on some very silly people within its ranks. 😉

          • demodocus

            Even among atheists, there are some very silly people.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            It’s almost like no one institution (or lack of one) has cornered the market on stupidity. 😉

        • Laura

          I’ve come across some of these people (I’m assuming you are also LDS). They think the church leaders must not be aware of the terrible side effects of vaccinations and therefore this is uninspired counsel. Um, most of these leaders have been around since before most of these vaccines were available and they have seen these diseases firsthand. I think they know what they are talking about.

  • anh

    I can’t comprehend this. the other morning I went to wake up my three year old and she was floppy with a fever. There was a strep outbreak at her daycare. I didn’t breathe until we were in the doctor’s office a few hours later. How does anyone stomach months and months of seeing their children in agony?

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      Hope your little one is ok, and feeling better soon

      • anh

        thanks! she much better after a round of antibiotics.

    • RMY

      It boogles my mind, especially when a lot of the more woo-filled parents are strongly anti-cry it out, which is a method where a child is in distress for much, much less time, because they feel any amount of distress is bad. I’m not saying CIO is a good or bad thing, but it sounds like a cakewalk for a kid compared to months and months of serious illness.

    • Mishimoo

      Hope she’s okay! Strep is awful.

    • LizzieSt

      Someone with a profound lack of empathy. Possibly even a sociopath.

    • Chris Hayes

      I can’t wrap my mind around this woman’s thought process. It just doesn’t even register. She was willing to risk her children’s LIVES to prove a point.

    • Mac Sherbert

      This mother is nuts. My vaccinated kid had the whopping cough. He was miserable. I feel terrible for the time it took me to figure out that his cough was beyond normal and get him to the doctor. I feel so sorry for these kids and just think my poor miserable kid was only coughing for a few days and at least the vaccine kept him being worse than it could have been. He was fine almost as soon as we got the antibiotics into him. My dad missed an entire school year with whooping cough back in the day. He was amazed at how fast my son was well and ready to go.

      • Montserrat Blanco

        In all fairness: the vaccine usually lessens the symptoms, so it is more difficult to diagnose, even for professionals. It also makes it easier to go away. So, yes, it is your child and you feel sorry for them every time they get sick, but it was really a difficult one to diagnose.

  • KarenJJ

    That was horrific. That is not a story of the good health of naturopathy that she thinks it is. Those poor kids. Bacteria feasting away on those kids lungs and their struggling for breath (my daughter had an episode like that once – I couldn’t get her to hospital fast enough). Her head so far up her naturopathic arse that she can’t see sense anymore and thinks anyone that stands up for her kids’ health are “haters”.. What a charmer. I hope she gets raked over for the coals for that. It would take a special kind of pigheadedness to not get help for such suffering for your children over such a long period of time.

    • SporkParade

      I’m a hater. I hate people who put ideology above being a decent human being.

    • moto_librarian

      Her kids may well have long-term health problems from this. Childhood pneumonia is the suspected cause of lifelong asthma for me, and it was treated with evidence-based medicine.

  • annie

    Has anyone reported this woman to child protective services?
    She willfully refused advanced medical care for her children, and subjected them to months of illness which could have been controlled within days by antibiotics.
    Subjecting them to that length of respiratory illness could possibly lead to lung damage that could haunt them for years.
    There are not enough words to describe how much this woman (and her husband) disgust me.

  • Monkey Professor for a Head

    Even putting aside the failure to vaccinate and use antibiotics (which is plenty bad enough), I’m astounded that this woman could write this and see it as a triumph. All the hundreds of dollars that she spent on alternative remedies, all the treatments that she put her kids through (enemas? No way that’s not traumatising for children). Clearly none of it worked , either in terms of reducing the duration of the illness or by alleviating symptoms. But she thinks it proves the opposite, that since her children didn’t die then clearly she’s the best healer that ever healed. I’m a bit reluctant to play the armchair psychiatrist, but it makes me wonder about whether there might be an element of munschausens by proxy here.

    • Chi

      There’s also a paragraph toward the end about how mothers are the best doctors for their family. The narcissism knows NO bounds with her.

      Oh and lets not forget the visits with her naturopath doctor who enabled and encouraged her in this madness.

      • KarenJJ

        I don’t know of a single doctor that would let children suffer like that. Or a single mother in that matter.

        • demodocus

          My hippie mother certainly had us to see a doctor as soon as she realized there was something wrong. (I tended to hide symptoms, so that’s how my scarlet fever went undetected until it burned out my ear; I hated going to the doctors and Dad was still battling cancer.)

      • Monkey Professor for a Head

        Like several other people here, I’m both a doctor and a mother – by her logic does that make me twice as qualified? Because screw that, I vaccinate!

        • Chi

          No cos you’re an evil shill because you probably use those dirty dirty overprescribed antibiotics and other horrid drugs instead of the GIFTS of mother nature.

          These people are so damn STUPID. The majority of the drugs we use ARE natural. Aspirin was developed from willow bark tea. All science does is isolate the active ingredient so we can regulate the dosages and avoid as many side-effects as possible that may go along with imbibing it in its natural form.

          Seriously. Natural is NOT some almighty powerful thing big pharma doesn’t want you knowing about. Most of the time it JUST DOESN’T WORK.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Or to steal a line from a commenter on another site”you know what else is natural? Selection. Also death. perfectly natural.

          • Nick Sanders

            I prefer Pratchett’s explanation of a (fictional) drink that’s made from “herbs and all-natural ingredients”:

            But belladonna was a herb, and arsenic is natural.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Prefer “So is poison ivy; try rubbing it on your genitals.”

          • SporkParade

            Homeopaths use belladonna in their “remedies.” In fact, Hyland’s got in trouble because their homeopathic teething gel actually had non-homeopathic quantities of deadly nightshade in it. Oops.

          • Roadstergal

            “The majority of the drugs we use ARE natural”

            Vaccination uses natural antigens to stimulate a perfectly natural immune response. Just with the ‘suffering from the actual disease’ part removed.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I would go one step further and say that line we draw between natural and unnatural is completely arbitrary.

            It is completely natural for a creature to modify it’s environment. Most people would consider bee hives, birds nests, and termite mounds natural but not skyscrapers or houses. Honey and maple syrup are considered natural but sweet-in-low is not. But all those “natural” things are just the result of creatures using what is in their environment to create something new. Why does it cease to be “natural” when we do it?

            Humans are just as much a part of nature as any other animal. It is our own hubris (or self-loathing) that makes us think differently.

          • Chi

            Exactly. And these self-same crunchies who go on and on about their all-natural 100% organic lifestyle use the internet, which is probably as unnatural as you can get, to tout their choices to other idiots in order to stroke their egos. It’s disgusting.

          • Who?

            My dog moves his blanket to his preferred spot before settling down on it.

            And he is really thick.

        • demodocus

          But you aren’t a “true” doctor of the good old naturpathic/mother goddess blessed variety!
          /sarcasm.

    • Gozi

      I am all for vaccines, but I would have been a little more understanding if her natural remedies had of WORKED!!!

  • Wtf.

    Wtf. Does it state if they caught whooping cough or if she purposely exposed them to it?

    • Mariana Baca

      She might have not exposed the first kid, but she definitely exposed the other two though reckless disregard.

      • Wtf.

        This is HORRIBLE! I have a one year old and newborn… And I’m a sahm currently. I don’t take them out in public often unless need be, and I wash my hands and their hands thoroughly every time I come home from errands etc..especially during fall and wintertime. They’ve never been sick. I take lots of precautions to prevent any suffering, I cannot IMAGINE purposely exposing them and then watching them suffer!

    • Chi

      It doesn’t state, just that the eldest girl brought it home. But during the first few weeks i.e when they were contagious, the kids were still going to their regular activities, like gymnastics, so who knows how many other kids they infected.

      • Kelly

        She also claims that pertussis was started by vaccinated children. She is living in a fantasy world.

    • Charybdis

      She claims it was from vaxxed kids.

  • VikingAPRNCNP

    Unbelievable. Her father politely called her an idiot. Husband said kids are in trouble. I sincerely hope she is taken to court by child profection.

    I am really surprised that her father didn’t rx antibiotics and give them to the husband. It is obviously illegal but the saying judged by 12 rather than carried by 6 applies.

    Arguably he has already placed his license in jeopardy through his failure to report suspected neglect. He is a mandated reporter.

    • Trixie

      The father is a veterinarian.

      • Wombat

        Yes, that is why it would be ‘obviously illegal’. But he has the technical ability to prescribe antibiotics that are also applicable in humans (especially if filled at a retail pharmacy, they tend not to carry vet-specific preparations of anything with any cross applicability). Illegal?? Absolutely. Very. VERY. Immoral? Significantly less-so than her, at a minimum. And less likely to do harm than someone attempting to buy fish antibiotics for themselves (the usual case of pet meds getting.. rerouted).

        I can’t speak to a veterinarian being a mandated reporter (of human abuse, that is), but it wouldn’t massively surprise me either.

        Edit: seems they are not in Michigan, but they are in several states. I’m not sure if there is a Federal standard or if it follows the ‘stricter of the two’ type division. Per this: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/manda.pdf#page=1&view=Professionals Required to Report

        • D/

          There are a lot of links between households with animal abuse, domestic violence and child abuse. Some states do mandate cross-reporting. https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-animal-abuse-cross-reporting.aspx

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Yep

          • Wombat

            I understand, that’s why it wouldn’t surprise me. Making them a mandated reporter (rather than just a ‘may report’ with some of the legal protections against reports that turn out to be false but were in good faith) is a strong step – one that your average class of legislator seems too cowardly to make but I’m not sad to be wrong on that.

            And I just presumed they were in Grand Rapids MI. Suppose I shouldn’t have.

        • VikingAPRNCNP

          Required to report in Minnesota

          Subd. 3.Persons mandated to report; persons voluntarily reporting. 

          (a) A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused, as defined in subdivision 2, or has been neglected or physically or sexually abused within the preceding three years, shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, county sheriff, tribal social services agency, or tribal police department if the person is:

          (1) a professional or professional’s delegate who is engaged in the practice of the healing arts, 

          • Squillo

            Like the genius naturopath she took them too after she realized her own mad naturopathy skillz sucked moo.

          • Who?

            This is a very fair point.

          • Wombat

            Oh yes. They want the ‘Dr’ title they better take the responsibilities that go with. Unfortunately in some states Naturopathy/Homeopathy/Traditional Chinese Medicine/etc etc fulfill the requirement of ‘seeking medical care’ in regards to medical neglect.

        • Azuran

          As a vet my answer as to why I wouldn’t prescribe to a human (putting aside the fact that I could lose my right of practice or maybe even go to prison if the kid had an adverse reaction to the medication) is that I have no idea what I am doing.
          I know absolutely nothing about human medicine and what antibiotic, at what dosage is effective against whopping cough (of which I didn’t even know what the actual causative agent was until like 2 months ago).
          But one thing veterinarian do knows is how different 2 species can be. The very first thing I learn at school was that ‘a dog is not a small human and a cat is not a small dog’ We know better than to try and treat humans, we know how deadly not knowing what you are doing can be.
          I have seen many doctors or pharmacists severely intoxicate of even kill their pets (or other people’s pets) because they tried to treat them like they were ‘small humans’.

          • Wombat

            Don’t get me wrong, I do understand that. I have unfortunately seen the ‘well can’t I just give them some x otc?’ attitude and the harm it can do.

            I’m not advocating that he just write antibiotics for the kiddos… more that if he took the time to research, with a medical and pharmacological background (since vets usually get more practical pharmacology than many doctors, in my experience) and checked dosages (all that information is out there, pretty sure some of the big LEXI type databases cover humans and common veterinary species so he might even have access to that) that I would understand it, and could see a moral/dire straights case being made for it (since kidnapping the kids to take them to a provider would also be a crime).

            Would the better thing to do be sit back and report it and let it work through the system? Yeah probably. But considering that suffering continues while that often ridiculous slow process works I can (again) understand without nec condoning the alternative action. Could it still go tits up in a heartbeat? Oh hell yeah. But so could giving the kids all those ridiculous herbals and supplements, leaving them to continue trying to survive whooping cough, etc.

            And I was merely clarifying the point that him being a vet was understood when the original statement was made.

          • Azuran

            But then again. The mother was the one against antibiotics anyway. So if she ever found out he was giving it to her kids, she probably would have reported him.
            Accessibility to treatment was never a problem. Obviously he should have reported her, I’m sure the authorities would have taken the report very seriously. He probably didn’t because he was afraid he’d never see them again.

          • Wombat

            Yeah, I’m sure she would have totally understood his concern or actions, regardless of what way he addressed it. Totes. 110%. I mean, listening to their male leaders and fathers is how people got through the Black Plague, right!??? (/sarc for any parachuters who don’t read to gud).

            The reason to go with antibiotics over kidnapping is having a sympathetic ear in the husband. -Might- be able to go unnoticed (of course that just feeds her delusion of being a doctor, but then again this abject failure did too, so…). Absolutely still a massive risk, and not one I would blame him not wanting to take, as either Grandpa or a DVM. At least through DCFS/CPS he can pass off that maybe someone else reported it.

            Taking it seriously is unfortunately still limited by means and opportunity. There’s of course the chronic lack of funding, personnel, and other resources. Also, disgustingly, in some states seeing a naturopathic physician is unfortunately enough to avoid medical neglect, under ‘personal belief’ type exemptions.

          • Azuran

            luckily, some states are working to eliminate the ‘personal belief’ exemptions when it concerns kids.
            ……To bad it took a few preventable deaths before anyone reacted to this stupidity.

          • AgentOrange5

            Still, I would rather take advice from a veterinarian, who at least is familiar with science and evidence-based medicine, than to take advice from a quack NP. But yes, the best thing would have been for the father to take the children to a real human doctor.

      • VikingAPRNCNP

        In Minnesota he would be a mandated reporter.

        Subd. 3.Persons mandated to report; persons voluntarily reporting. 

        (a) A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused, as defined in subdivision 2, or has been neglected or physically or sexually abused within the preceding three years, shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, county sheriff, tribal social services agency, or tribal police department if the person is:

        (1) a professional or professional’s delegate who is engaged in the practice of the healing arts, 

        • Houston Mom

          They are in Michigan.

        • Abbe PB

          Mandated reporting typically refers to professional relationships, not personal ones. As the children’s grandfather, not their doctor or veterinarian, I don’t believe he is legally bound to report, though I do feel he had a moral obligation to do so regardless.

          Additionally, he may have reported it anonymously and social services didn’t follow up. This often happens, usually due to lack of resources, an overly vague report, or unclear definitions of child abuse (e.g. is letting your kids get sick really abusive? In this case clearly yes, but especially in the context of the former two points, someone may decide it isn’t worth following up on).

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            I could make the following argument that he is mandated:

            From the statute

            1) An individual is required to report under this act as follows:

            (a) A physician, dentist, physician’s assistant, registered dental hygienist, medical examiner, nurse, person licensed to provide emergency medical care, 

            Veterinarians are licensed to provide emergency care….(I acknowledge it’s a reach….)

            Minnesota statute arguably mandat es reporting of suspected abuse or neglect by anyone.

    • kellymbray

      I reported her. So did a few others.

    • Grace Adieu

      I wonder if the trip to her parents’ house wasn’t a deliberate intervention by them so that they could monitor the kids’ condition and perhaps even dose them with real medicine while she was having her naps.

  • Persephone Jade

    Someone please sterilize this bitch

    • LibrarianSarah

      While this lady is a horrible human being, I don’t think it does any good to use gender slurs or advocate taking away her reproductive rights. Such rhetoric doesn’t just hurt the intended target but all women.

      Let’s be the better people here and not sink to that level.

      • Persephone Jade

        I’m glad you think child abusers should be able to have more children to abuse. Having children shouldn’t be a right. You should have to prove you can take care of them first. She is a bitch and deserves to be called one. The words not hurting anyone and certainly not hurting all women. Though in this case I’ll concede it’s probably insulting to female dogs considering they know how to care for their young.

        • LibrarianSarah

          And who decide who is and isn’t allowed to have children? Just you? And by what criteria do we use to decide who is and isn’t worthy of their reproductive rights. You might want to read up on USA (and world) history to see what happens when people decide who and who doesn’t get to have children. Spoiler alert! It doesn’t end well. Look up Eugenics if you don’t believe me. Sure this woman is a piece of shit and CPS should probably make a visit to this persons house. But don’t let your anger turn you into a monster. And yes only a monster would argue for the return of forced sterilization.

  • Allie

    My grandfather was permanently disable by whooping cough. It scarred his lungs and he was always short of breath. He died relatively young of a heart attack and his cardiologist attributed his long-term heart disease to that childhood bout of whooping cough. Who knows what long-term ill effects those poor little ones will have from their terrible bout of whooping cough. Occasionally I feel Dr. Amy exaggerates a little for dramatic effect, but in this case, her tone is spot on. Anyone who would intentionally allow their children to go through such a terrible illness is a child abuser. No question.

    • KarenJJ

      I agree. There is no way she should be around children and babies and other vulnerable people. She’s getting some sort of psychological reward for this drama and then seeking attention further posting it publicly. It doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t pass the smell test.

  • Kelly

    During my last pregnancy, I had the worse cold I have ever had. I could not get off the couch for three weeks. I coughed so hard that I pulled a muscle in my back. I was so miserable and all I wanted was to go to the hospital and have them knock me out until I got over it. I rarely go to the doctor and I went three times during that time because I was scared that it was turning into something worse. I can’t believe that she would think that this was ok to do this to her kids. If this had happened to her, would she be ok with it going that long? She comes out as the martyr here but her poor kids are the ones who really suffered.

    • Chi

      I’m mildly surprised she and her husband didn’t catch it either. But yeah SHE was the martyr because SHE wasn’t getting more than 2 hours sleep a night. Oh and don’t forget her husband and dad being OH SO MEAN and not agreeing with her natural bullshit.

      I feel SO bad for those kids. I can’t imagine letting my daughter suffering like that. I know that if she was, she’d be taken straight to the nearest ER.

      • Bugsy

        Her self-victimization really gets me mad. “Waaaaa….they’re being mean to me because they’re not placing my misguided and dangerous beliefs on a pedestal.”. Reminds me so much of the former friend I lost when I mentioned that my hubby didn’t want our son to have a playdate w her intentionally unvax kid. Obviously her feelings were more important than my son’s health.

        • Chi

          Their feelings and ideologies are WAY more important than ANYTHING. That’s what makes them so damn dangerous.

      • demodocus

        Her dad the vet probably had her vaccinated, and she may still be immune from her last booster before she went all anti-vax. DH may also.

  • Wombat

    Being too high to take your kid to the doctor would be more than grounds for a visit with CPS/DCFS. It’s more than time that being too stupid, ignorant, and/or proud to do so was too.

    P.s., to Heather’s hubby: Despite the internet being about the least natural thing in existence, somehow I presume you have access.

    RUN. Run while you still have three children to run with. Divorce is the cure for what ails you, as sad as that is. And despite the justice system’s mother bias, her -self documented- refusal to alter course in the face of your concern that the children were -going to die- should help quite a bit. Give visitation. But insist on supervision (her breed of crazy goes hand in hand with parental abduction, unfortunately) and have medical care written into the decree. Non-naturopath, bob sears, etc medical care.

    If you’re not willing to take that step for your kids (they will suffer some for the life upset, but much less than dying, that’s for damn sure) at least put your foot down. This is more than time for an ultimatum. Clearly her family will support you in that.

    • Wombat

      How many FB pages does this lady have? Heather Dexter, Birth Services page (snorttt), Madluem Dexter… list goes on and on. Issues. Also glad her husband is not the peds dentist in the area.. that would be too facepalm worthy for words.

      • Gozi

        What kind of damn birth services?!?!? I wouldn’t let this woman attend the birth of the stray cats that hang out on my porch!

        • *shudder* Did she attend births while her kids were still contagious? Did she expose postpartum women and their newborns to pertussis? I really, really, really hope the answer is no …

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Has anyone sent this to Orac?

    • kellymbray

      Yes. I did.

  • Andrew Lazarus

    You know, if one of the kids had died, she wouldn’t care that much. At least he was undefiled by vaccines.

  • Starling

    God damn, that is a horrifying story. My tiny person got his first DTAP today, and he is in pain. Trying to soothe a seven-week-old isn’t fun, but and I wish I could spare him, but this story reminds me why we do it.

    God damn. Those poor little kids.

    • Trixie

      Aww, rest up little guy!

    • Montserrat Blanco

      A little bit of paracetamol can do wonders with those little guys. It did with mine. I hope he gets over it soon.

      • Chi

        Tylenol is EVIL!!!!!!! It makes the vaccine damage worse!!!!

        (note: I am pro-vax, this is some of the idiocy I hear from antivaxxers all the time).

        Paracetamol is great. It’s worked wonders for my daughter when teething pain has gotten too much for her to bear.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          Same here! If I ever meet the wonderful person who came up with the idea of children’s Tylenol, I shall thank them profusely. Possibly with cake.

          • Megan

            And Children’s Motrin. Cake all around! 🙂

        • demodocus

          I’m half laughing/half crying. My kid’s canines came through the week after he broke his leg, so he was on some heavy pain killers. The first one was that night. I’m not sure he even noticed. Oxycodone is one heck of a pain killer for teething 🙁 He only needed Tylenol a couple times with the earlier teeth.

      • Dr Kitty

        My guy was fine after 24hrs and 3doses of Calpol. But that was before we hit the “wonder week” this week.
        Not loving the grizzling and clinginess.
        Nothing to do with vax, just developmental milestones.
        So far the cure has been long drives and long walks ( I got to see an 11th century round tower and the remains of a 7th century ring fort, so not all bad).

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      Awwww, poor baby! I remember DD was sleepy and sad after hers. Fortunately, an afternoon of cuddling on the couch plus an unusually long night of sleep seemed to do the trick. (Can’t remember if I did Tylenol or not…I’m sure I would have if the ped recommended it, but it’s a bit blurry now.)

  • Spamamander

    My son had RSV. A night in the hospital and weeks of breathing treatments. I felt like utter hell that I couldn’t “fix” him when the cough was wracking his little 2 year old body. How the FUCK could this woman martyr herself over the struggles of her little ones to even fucking BREATHE?! Pardon my French but I really want to throw another dozen F bombs up there!

  • Katia

    That was close to child abuse. Her father was right. She’s very lucky that none of them, especially the baby, had to be hospitalized.

    • Amy

      I wouldn’t call it close to child abuse. I’d call it flat-out child abuse.

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      Her father should have filed a neglect report. As a licensed health professional he is a mandated reporter.

      • Houston Mom

        Are veterinarians mandated reporters?

        • areawomanpdx

          I don’t think so.

        • Trixie

          No, not of human abuse.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            It depends what the veterinary practice act says..

            Interestingly many children were protected under cruelty to animal statutes in the 1800s before the passage of cps laws.

            The Michigan statute says

            333.18827. Abandoned, neglected, or abused animals; reporting to peace officers; immunity from civil or criminal liability

            Sec. 18827. A veterinarian or veterinary technician who in good faith reports to a peace officer, an animal control officer, or an officer of a private organization devoted to the humane treatment of animals an animal that the veterinarian or veterinary technician knows or reasonably believes to be abandoned, neglected, or abused is immune from civil or criminal liability for making the report.

            CREDIT(S)

            P.A.1978, No. 368, § 18827, added by P.A.2000, No. 23, Imd. Eff. March 13, 2000.

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            By definition we are all animals….

        • Hilary

          In some states everyone is a mandated reporter for child abuse.

        • VikingAPRNCNP

          Yes in mn

          Subd. 3.Persons mandated to report; persons voluntarily reporting. 

          (a) A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused, as defined in subdivision 2, or has been neglected or physically or sexually abused within the preceding three years, shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, county sheriff, tribal social services agency, or tribal police department if the person is:

          (1) a professional or professional’s delegate who is engaged in the practice of the healing arts, 

          As a practitioner of the healing arts…

    • annie

      That wasn’t close to child abuse.
      That was child abuse. She withheld treatment that would have eased their suffering, and instead contributed to months of illness, possibly leading to permanent lung damage.

    • yugaya

      With the symptoms as severe as she detailed and for that long those children probably would have at some point been hospitalized had they seen an actual doctor.

      • Fallow

        Exactly. They were only only hospitalized, for the same reason that homebirthers get fewer c-sections. The hospital was never presented to them as a choice.

    • kellymbray

      “That was close to child abuse.”

      I think it was child abuse.

      • Katia

        I was trying to be nice!

        • footnotegirl

          Don’t be nice to an abuser, be nice to the kids that went through it and call it what it was.
          It was abuse.

    • Who?

      I think that while she was living it, it was probably, objectively, neglect. This is despite the ‘care’ in the shape of all the useless potions she was administering via the orifice du jour, which could only have made it worse.

      It became abuse when she posted online about it, because publicising it that way is so disrespectful of the suffering of those kids. She minimised their suffering in telling her story, complaining about how she was victimised, misunderstood and really tired, but still fighting on.

      • manabanana

        I can agree with that – at the point she brags about their bout with pertussis and her ‘naturopathic’ healing efforts – she is exploiting and abusing her children. Before that it was pure misguided neglect.

        I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am far from a perfect parent – I am not quick to call out the guillotine. That said, her story is horrific. I do believe her intentions were to do the right thing for her children – but she lacks any sort of reflective ability or humility to see that she was wrong. Would she have reckoned with her faulty decision-making had one of her children died? Who knows. SInce they survived. she can only see it as a parenting triumph. Much the same way a HBA3C breech twin water birth mother feels after having no one DIE during her natural birth.

        Maybe the publication of this story online is a gift to her. Maybe it will propel her into reality and away from delusion and the fanaticism of all-things-natural. Maybe not.

        I cannot fathom why someone would post something like this to the world-wide-web and not expect any sort of criticism or backlash. She is truly consumed by her own delusional reality.

    • Gozi

      I don’t understand how it isn’t CHILD ABUSE, not close to it. I work within my local school district, and I know that CPS and the like have been called for much, much less.

    • namaste863

      They probably should have been hospitalized. She was just too much of a dipshit to do it.

  • Lemongrass

    Here is a link to her facebook page where you can leave a review. They can’t delete or remove reviews from their page. https://www.facebook.com/Earth-Mothers-Natural-Health-Birth-Services-190455044338524/reviews/

    • Chi

      I think they’ve taken down the review function and made the page private, because it’s no longer available.

      I hope she sees the backlash she’s getting and realize that MAYBE just MAYBE there is a legitimate reason for it.

      Oh who am I kidding? She’s so narcissistic that she’ll think all the hate is because she’s doing something right and people are trying to ‘silence her and the truth’. *sigh*

  • Erin

    My son has his first cold and I’m struggling to deal with him being sick (he’s almost nine months), every sneeze and sniffle makes me sob a little inside. I just can’t imagine watching him cough his little heart out day in day out knowing there was medicine to fix it and doing nothing but perhaps I’m doing this Mothering lark wrong.
    I’ve clearly been brainwashed by “Big” Medicine but then my son is named in part for his paternal Grandmother’s Uncle who died aged 4 to Spanish Flu…

    • KarenJJ

      My grandmother’s uncle died of Spanish Flu. He survived the journey from Australia to Europe, four years of fighting in WW1 and then died of Spanish Flu in Europe while waiting to board a boat back home.

  • MaineJen

    Horrific. Absolutely horrific. And she went online and bragged about it. If her husband hasn’t filed for divorce and full custody by now, there’s no hope for him. Or those poor kids.

    • Trixie

      Well, if he files for full custody, this would be Exhibit A as to why he ought to get it.

      • Katia

        I don’t know. He didn’t do anything, either.

  • Gravyman

    Why are child protection services not involved? This is child abuse and neglect.

  • Laura

    I was horrified reading about those poor children. My three-year-old had an unexplained fever last summer that lasted for a whole week (she is rarely ill, thank God), and that worried me to no end. Doctor said it was just one of those viruses and to treat the fever and keep her hydrated. That was only one week–I would never DREAM of letting her suffer for months on end with whooping cough without getting her proper medical attention.

    Oh, and my grandma caught whooping cough twice as a child. So much for natural immunity to it.

  • Who?

    I get being so tired and deranged with flu (say) that you can’t see the child needs the doctor. That happened to me once, my parents came over for some reason, took one look and told me the boy needed the doctor now. I started to cry and said I couldn’t drive, they said they would drive us both since I was obviously sick too.

    So they did and we all got better and lived happily every after, on the whole.

    But to choose no care?

    • Elizabeth A

      Your story is a classic exhibit for Why We Have Support Networks. I mean, look what happened – you were out of your brains on influenza. Family came over (because they come over on a regular basis, or specifically because you were sick, or because you owed them money, whyever), saw the state you were in, and responded to your emergency.

      I note that Heather and her family appear to not quite have these systems. Or to ignore them. Or something. Her support networks are trying to function, but she reports on two attempts to get her real help that failed.

    • Amy M

      I had an episode like that. I had pneumonia, pleurisy, ear infection and sinus infection simultaneously. I could see that something was wrong with at least one of my children (2yo at the time), but I wasn’t in any shape to do anything about it. So I tearfully called my mom at 4am, and told her I needed her to take the kids to the doctor….my parents live 5hrs away, but she left almost immediately and showed up before lunchtime. One child had pneumonia, the other an ear infection and my mom got stuck with us for more days than planned due to a blizzard, but everyone got the medical care they needed.

  • areawomanpdx

    NDs have prescribing privileges in Oregon. It’s unfortunately not a joke. I don’t think she’s a real ND, though. They have actual 4-year “medical schools” that require a bachelors degree to get into.

  • lilin

    Just have to share this. These kids are probably too young to remember how much they suffered with this. I once got sick as an adolescent. My parents are very anti-pill (although they were absolutely strict about getting our vaccinations) but when I began to have trouble breathing they ran me to the hospital. I still remember how terrifying it was to not be able to breathe and looking to my parents for help. The difference between them and Heather is they actually helped me. Heather Dexter just let her kids suffer and then blogged about it. What an awful mother. Those poor kids.

    • CanDoc

      Agree, agree, agree. I’m horrified.

    • Mariana Baca

      They might never forget, and not just because she blogged about it. They likely have permanent lung damage like Bronchiestasis. Every flu season, every cold, they will risk pneumonia and it will likely be increasingly antibiotic resistant. The quest for “natural immunity” and “no antibiotics” might cause them to have worse immunity and have to use more antibiotics than most people.

    • Bugsy

      Yes. Our son fell at the playground last month, and we spent the night at the ER getting stitchesstitches where his tooth went through his lip. He was a good patient and don’t cry, but the terror in his eyes as they stitched him up said it all. He was terrifies, and as a mom, it killed me to see him both hurt and his ensuing fear.

      He still talks about his accident and the effects of it. And this was a one-night injury, and he is three. I can’t imagine how whooping cough would affect him wmotionally…never want to be there.

  • lilin

    What the hell is a “naturopathic doctor”? Are those idiots awarding themselves MDs now?

    • areawomanpdx

      Unfortunately it’s a real thing. ND’s have prescribing privileges in Oregon. Of course they are total quacks. This is who the antivaxxers go to to get exemptions from school vaccination requirements. I don’t think she’s a real ND, though. They have actual 4-year “medical schools” that require a bachelors degree to get into.

      • Houston Mom

        There is no licensure for NDs in Michigan so apparently their NDs are even worse than other states’ if that’s possible. Looking at the course work at Dexter’s school, it seems like a lot less than what Britt Hermes wrote about taking at Bastyr.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      “Real” naturopaths, meaning those that actually went to an accredited school and took the NPLEX are quacks. This woman isn’t even that- she went to an unaccredited school. Here is the coursework to call yourself a “naturopathic doctor” at her school.
      http://naturopathicinstitute.info/nite/academics/programs/natural-health-naturopathic-classes/
      ______

      Advanced Muscle Testing & Amino Acids*
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      This class includes additional nutritional and emotional pressure points. Students will be taught how to use muscle testing to determine which homeopathics, essential oils, amino acids, and other modalities are appropriate for individual clients. Students will also learn analysis by using a grading scale to determine clients’ improvements from one appointment to the next.

      Advanced Oils *
      Natural Health Practitioner (3rd year)
      Building on the first year Essential Oil course, students will recognize the proper distillation process and where and how the plants are grown and harvested; how to make blends according to clients’ special needs. Students will learn emotional and physical application techniques.

      Advanced Reflexology, Meridian Work, and Flower Remedies
      Natural Health Practitioner (3rd year)
      Taking reflexology to the next level, students will improve their technique; learn the reflexes of the hands and also energy centers of the feet. Meridian clearing will cover allergy improvement techniques as well as emotional healing through meridian points. The Beyond Bach portion of the class will introduce the 100+ remedies discovered after Dr. Bach’s original work.

      Anatomy II*
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      Students will learn the function of each organ and its relation to surrounding organs’ functions and balances. Energies of each organ will be discussed and how imbalances can affect health. Students will also learn about chemical reactions in the body, such as hormonal secretions and functions.

      Anatomy III* Natural Health Practitioner (3rd year) Continuing the exploration of the body, students will gain perspective at a cellular level of the immune system, the nervous system, and detailed disease processes. Through this in-depth understanding of the human body, students are better equipped to help clients bridge the gap between medical procedures and natural health options.

      Biology
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      This class will include molecular structure and the periodic table; structure of foods, vitamins, minerals and tissues; aerobic and anaerobic activity; what happens during digestion; what nutrients each system and/or organ is primarily composed of; and what elements each organ uses to function. Naturopathic Biology is fun!

      Bodywork I
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      Students will learn techniques for facilitating stress reduction massage and improving the lymphatic system, including the eight basic strokes of massage, proper body mechanics, draping the client for modesty, ethics, and professionalism. There is lots of hands-on practice. (Required: two flat sheets [full size], one fitted [twin size] and 1 full size bath towel. Be prepared to undress down to your briefs or bring a pair of shorts.)

      Bodywork II *
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      How to assess clients; techniques include Fascia Alignment, Meridian Release, Neuro-vascular and Neuro-lymphatic treatments, Refined Palpation skills, Manual Lymphatic Drain, Neuro-muscular Facilitation and refining of body mechanics.

      Bodywork III *
      Natural Health Practitioner (3rd year)
      A continuation of Body Work I and II, students use advanced bodywork techniques to address specific concerns such as shoulder and neck pain, pelvis and tail bone discomfort, exhausted lymphatic and immune systems, and help the client to remain balanced in the structural muscular system—thereby benefiting all other systems.

      Body Systems, Anatomy, Physiology
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      A study of each body system and its functions; signs of dysfunction, deficiency, and excess; how dysfunction in one system can interact with other systems. Anatomy includes the bones and muscles and their locations and actions; organ location; nerve tracts and tissue types. Physiology includes individual function of organs, the parts they play in systems and the body as a whole; relationship among muscle, organ and nerve functions.

      Conception, Childbirth, Childhood
      Certified Naturopath (4th year)
      An introduction to the art of midwifery, and to the herbs, oils, and homeopathics used prior to conception, for infertility, during childbirth and raising healthy children. This class teaches the naturopathy student how to prepare and assist clients through the childbearing and childrearing years.

      CranioSacral Bodywork
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      This class will provide a base level understanding of Cranio Sacral Body Work, which uses gentle pressure along the spine, cranial, and sacral areas to allow better flow of the cerebral spinal fluid. There are numerous emotional benefits to this unique technique, some of which can noticed used right away.

      Death and Dying
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      This course has the objectives of training students to help others prepare for death and the dying process, creating awareness about the moment when the spirit leaves the body and the journey to a peaceful departure. Most importantly, students will learn to assist family members and loved ones to become active participants in this beautiful progression. Additional topics will include sudden or traumatic death situations and how to be an aid even to strangers. So many times death is treated as a clinical event; however, you can learn how to make a difference in one of the most important journeys a human being will ever take. This course isn’t really about death and dying; it is about life and living.

      Degenerative Diseases
      Certified Naturopath (4th year)
      Healing from a degenerative disease requires balancing the physical, spiritual, and emotional bodies. This class is designed to bring together several naturopathic modalities and to deal with known disease states on all levels, one-by-one. Special attention will be given to tumors, blood sugar, circulatory problems, and forms of dementia.

      Elements of Man
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      Elements are the life sustaining ingredients that make up every plant, animal and person. Learning the unique gifts that each of the elements has to offer is the essence of this class. This class will include an introduction to 16 macro elements, what each element is used for, and what the signs of deficiency include. Students will be able to understand disease and establish proper mineral balance, turning a devastating condition into a healing experience.

      Evaluation and Assessment
      Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year)
      Would you like to be able to tell more of what is going on with your clients by looking at their faces, the marks on their tongues, fingernails, skin, etc.? This course will give you numerous tools to use in the first few moments with a client. These tools can provide more information than several medical tests combined. A good evaluation is the key to a successful consultation and long-term results for the client. One of the few classes where sticking out your tongue is considered good participation!

      Feng Shui
      Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year)
      Feng Shui (pronounced “fung schway”) is the 3,000-year-old Chinese art of placement of things in your environment. This class is an important part of the third-year program, as it widens the students’ view to see how our surroundings directly affect our health. By becoming more aware of this connection, we are then free to discover the many ways to enhance “chi” flow for our highest good and optimal health.

      Flower Remedies and Essential Oils
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      Every good therapist realizes that emotions are a part of healing. This class gives you a tool for helping your clients heal emotionally. Flower Remedies are gathered from blossoming plants and used to counteract negative emotions. Essential Oils are distilled from plants to be applied during massages or for everyday application on the body and throughout the home. Skills learned in this class are necessary for proper application of these essential remedies.

      Forms of Cleansing
      Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year)
      This class is a detailed explanation of herbal, homeopathic, essential oil therapy, bodywork, colon hydrotherapy, fasting, and other modes of cleansing. It is designed to help you determine which type of cleansing and at what intensity will best serve to get the results you need. A close look at the Chinese model of herbs will be included.

      Glandular Symphony
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      This unique course gives students a memorable way to learn and understand the beauty of the glandular system. Information will be based on the explanations provided by well known herbalist Steven Horne. You will learn how this system affects energy, mood swings, the reproductive systems, and hormone balance. Body typing will be discussed as well as the need for essential fatty acids. With each gland discussed, natural remedies and food suggestions will be included, allowing for immediate results.

      Herb Walk
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      Students will have a unique opportunity to see the herbs growing in gardens specially prepared to enhance their healing energy and therapeutic value. The entire class will take place outside where students will observe planting patterns; patterns for energy and growth; how to establish their own gardens; proper replanting; when to harvest the herbs; identification of plants; and folk history about their uses and preparation for home use.

      Herbs and Muscle Response Testing Natural Health Educator
      (1st year) This class will include how to classify herbs as bitter, aromatic, astringent, mucilaginous, and nutritive. We will cover the properties and uses of single and combinations of herbs throughout the world and their benefits. Included is the technique of muscle testing, which helps determine which organs and systems are most troubled and how to assist the body with supplementation.

      Herbology II *
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      In this class, students will learn to make herbal preparations, including hot and cold infusions, syrups, tinctures, salves, and understand how planting and harvesting according to moon phases increase benefits. An in-depth study of the heating and cooling patterns of herbs includes how these procedures apply to each person’s individual needs.

      Herbology III *
      Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year)
      In this 3rd-level class, students will bring together all aspecis of herbology: identifying, growing, transplanting, harvesting, drying, preparing, and applying. Students will be able to go from the field to the remedy while understanding each aspect of the process. Twenty key herbs will be studied in detail..

      Herbology IV
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      This course will focus on the survival foods and emergency medicines of herbology. Bringing students to the field once again, we will identify edible grasses, roots, and berries that are essential for every advanced herbology student to understand. Applications of poultices will be practiced and the doctrine of signatures will be studied in detail.

      History of Naturopathy Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year) The history of medicine itselp encompasses all disciplines and philosophies. We will explore the roots of naturopathy and other forms of medicine to ascertain their similarities and when and where differences in philosophies occurred. Understanding the history of naturopathy allos advanced students to feel more confident in their chosen path.

      Holistic Approach *
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      The holistic philosophy and approach to true and abundant health are detailed in this class, bringing all the different assessment techniques together. Students will learn how to educate clients to facilitate healing and take charge of their own health; how to best blend therapies to fit the lifestyles, personalities, and abilities of the people who come to you.

      Homeopathy I
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      This class will include an explanation of homeopathy; how homeopathy works on the vital force within the body; and what the different strengths or dilutions of homeopathic remedies mean. Included also are single homeopathic remedies for emergency situations and common ailments. Cell salts will be introduced.

      Homeopathy II *
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      This class includes constitutional homeopathy; remedies for specific health concerns; what to do about inherited weaknesses; and how to use more potent remedies. The cell salts portion will include a detailed explanation of our tendencies for deficiencies in these elements; how deficiencies can cause great imbalances in the body; and how and when cell salts should be used.

      Homeopathy III *
      Natural Health Practitioner
      (3rd year)
      Students will learn how to bring homeopathy into a vital part of the naturopathic program. Focus will be on influenza, its history and proper treatment. Several key homeopathics that match specific constitutional types will be covered. Students will also have the opportunity to make a remedy and participate in a “proving.”

      Homeopathy IV *
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      A continuation of Homeopathy I through III, this class covers the clearing of genetically inherited miasms of the family tree. Like the peeling of an onion, students will trace back through the original diseases of mankind to today’s major health concerns. In addition, students will learn to use advanced naturopathic technology to create their own isopathic remedies.

      Iridology
      Natural Health Educator
      (1st year)
      This class will teach the science of iris analysis. Students will study the fibers of the eye to determine tissue weakness and the body’s predisposition to weakness. Numerous iris slides will be studied and manual observation of other students’ irises and your own will be part of the training.

      Live Food and Healthy Eating
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      This class will cover the preparation of food without destruction of the extremely important enzyme content and nutritional value. Students will observe and actually practice sprouting seeds, growing fresh greens, composting, juicing, and preparing unique meals. Creating meals with high levels of nutrients for total cellular repair in the body is the focus. Best of all, the food prepared will be consumed by students! Students will be introduced to eating according to their Blood Type and its benefits.

      Magnets and Polarity Therapy
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      As a living being, we are subject to the magnetic pull and polarity of the earth. If this polarity is thrown off course by emotional trauma, accident, or injury, the entire healing system of the body can be slowed or even shut down. Learn the use of magnet and polarity therapy to bring the healing system into balance.

      Meridian Work and Light Healing Touch
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      Students will learn what meridians are and how they affect the body, both physically and emotionally, location of meridians and how to clear blockages. In Light Healing Touch, students will learn about the main energy centers located throughout the body (chakras) and how touch can promote healing physically, mentally, and spiritually. These techniques are especially helpful to those in the dying process or those who are in too much pain to be touched.

      Nutrition
      Natural Health Education
      (1st year)
      This class will include a complete discussion of vitamins and minerals; nutritional levels of foods; food sources of vital nutrients; advantages of fresh foods over processed foods; what elements we really get from foods; the RDA and how to use it; proper food combining for better digestion; remedies for digestive disorders; suggested food group ratios; and digestive times for various foods.

      Parasitology
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      Oh, those nasty critters! Parasites are involved in nearly every disease state. Identifying them and facilitating their evacuation is often more challenging. This course will teach muscle-testing skills to identify type and location of parasites, bacterias, and viruses, as well as remedies and techniques for getting rid of them. Samples are welcome!

      Reflexology
      Natural Health Education
      (1st year)
      The unique technique of reflexology can be used on the hands or feet. Each foot contains 7200 nerve endings that can be traced back to every organ and tissue of the body. This class will teach you how to work on the feet by using specialized thumb and hand techniques. This skill is a must for Massage Therapists and Naturopathic Therapists alike. Includes the history of Reflexology; theory and practice; meridians and nerve tracts; what you can tell about the body systems through the feet; oils that can be used.

      Sclerology
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      Advancing the study of Iridology, this class will include observation of numerous eye slides to learn the new science of Sclerology. Students will be able to determine in the first few moments of analysis which direction the client’s naturopathic program needs to go. Scleras are more easily seen and give very current information, including parasite types and location.

      Sound Therapy and Color Therapy
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      Healing can be as subtle as a vibration of light or sound. This unique class will introduce you to the art of using sound and light in a therapeutic manner to return the body to a peaceful and harmonious state where healing can be easily achieved. This class includes lots of “ears- and eyes-on!”

      Vaccines and Environmental Poisons
      Natural Health Therapist
      (2nd year)
      Discussion covers the important truths & deceiving myths about vaccinations, how to identify certain toxins in the environment and most importantly, how to antidote them. Remedies include homeopathics, herbs and essential oils to remove nerve contaminants (such as mercury) and how to protect the body from vaccine and environmental poisons, as well as support the body in health.

      Environmental Poisons II
      Certified Naturopath
      (4th year)
      This class will take an in-depth look at many of the environmental poisons we are exposed to on a daily basis and how to counter the effects & promote healing. We will learn how & why such things as fluoride, artificial preservatives & sweeteners, noise, & cellular pollutants affect the body and how to protect, preserve, and maintain health despite true environmental challenges.

      • areawomanpdx

        OMG, it’s like a CPM of quackery. Meta-quackery?

      • Houston Mom

        The school is “accredited” by a different group than the more official schools. They claim to be incorporated in DC but the phone number is in NV as is their corporate registration. http://www.anmab.org/ANMAB_MEMBER_SCHOOLS.html

        They give their own exam for their own made up credential http://www.anmcb.org/examinationlocationinfo.html

      • yugaya

        “Vaccines and Environmental Poisons
        Natural Health Therapist
        (2nd year)
        Discussion covers the important truths & deceiving myths about vaccinations, how to identify certain toxins in the environment and most importantly, how to antidote them. Remedies include homeopathics, herbs and essential
        oils to remove nerve contaminants (such as mercury) and how to protect the body from vaccine and environmental poisons, as well as support the body in health.”

        That’s like, outright quackery, right?

      • lilin

        Advanced Oils and Advanced Flower Remedies!
        Well, it’s a good thing they have a course on “death and dying,” because their patients are going to need it.

        • Kelly

          It makes me think that they are going to Hogwarts.

          • Nick Sanders

            Except at Hogwarts, magic actually works.

          • Kelly

            Yes, yes it does.

      • Valerie

        Is this where Madam Pomfrey did her training?

        • FrequentFlyer

          I doubt it. Madam Pomfrey’s potions worked.

        • Linden

          More like Gilderoy Lockhart school of medicine

          • namaste863

            ROFLMAO

        • namaste863

          Except Madam Pomphrey got the job done.

      • Houston Mom

        The naturopath she consulted with, Sarah Mokma, is also a product of the same school Dexter attended. A regular quack factory. They also all seem to be pimping Nature’s Sunshine products. It’s a Utah based multi-level marketing company. These are the tools she would have had at her disposal to treat the Dexter children http://www.rootedwell.com/services.html

        The school has regular get togethers for their MLM activities http://naturopathicinstitute.info/nite/alumni/

      • Sue

        “Glandular SYmphony:
        Body typing will be discussed as well as the need for essential fatty acids.”

        Essential fatty acids are called ” essential” because….?

        MASSIVE eye roll.

      • Tiffany Aching

        So glad they have a course about death. Might come very handy indeed.

    • Liz Leyden

      In Vermont, Naturopathic Doctors can be PCPs. They can accept Medicaid. They can write prescriptions. They can provide “medical” exemptions for parents who don’t want to vaccinate. They can even do home births.

      Last May, a baby delivered at home by a naturopath ended up transferred to the hospital with respiratory distress. He died of GBS pneumonia 7 hours after birth. Even though naturopaths are allowed to write prescriptions, they can’t give IV antibiotics. The naturopath lost her “Naturopathic Childbirth” endorsement.

      https://www.sec.state.vt.us/media/702338/Robens-Angela-DOCKET-2015318.pdf

      • Bugsy

        Eeck. I’m GBS pos this time around, and your post serves as a fantastic reminder of why I will be getting my a** to the hospital as soon as I go into labor sometime this week. Antibiotics in a drip-feed, here I come!

      • lilin

        Oh my god.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    OK, I haven’t had a chance to read any of the comments, but this is a joke, right? Total Poe, it has to be.

    Nobody can be that stupid. Kids are coughing until they puke through the night, but hey, at least they didn’t have a shot?

    No, this isn’t serious. Total scam.

    • Nick Sanders

      I have known far too many idiots to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

    • demodocus

      For a poe, she’d have to be world class.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        She talks about the kids puking through the night as something to be proud of. That’s not serious, no way.

        • demodocus

          or flipping nuts.

        • lilin

          It’s the fucking smarm that gets to me. “Sleep is for parents who drug their children.” LOOK AT ME! I AM THE MARTYR.

          • Who?

            The shine on the badge is something fierce. She must be polishing it like crazy between the pukes.

          • Mariana Baca

            Also, there is nothing wrong with parents giving kids needed drug — it doesn’t make them drug pushers. It makes them good parents. If the parent is sleep deprived because the kid is too sick to sleep, the kid is likely also just as sleep deprived and in hell.

        • yugaya

          Puking through the night and waking up in sheer fear and exhaustion went on for months Bofa. For months her children struggled to breathe. And she says on her personal fb profile this:

          “My kids did not suffer. There was no abuse. Their immune systems were being stimulated and were being challenged in their on the job training.”

          • Megan

            She’s delusional. I hope she doesn’t kill one of the kids with her stupidity. I am scared for them.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, it has to be complete bullshit. No one is that stupid.

            This is a complete and utter Poe. Has to be.

    • Trixie

      If she’s a Poe she’s put a whole lot of work into it and is really in it for the long game. She’s got real websites and Facebook pages and reviews from real people and she appears to be an actual real person.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        No, I think this is exactly what it is. It’s a complete set up. Whoever the author is is a complete satirist.

        • Trixie

          No, her two partners are also real people with real Facebook profiles, with real spouses, etc. These are real people, not to sound stalkerish. If they are Poes, they’re Poes using their real names and having invested years and years into their Poe profiles.

      • carbonUnit
  • Nick Sanders

    Each person is entitled to their beliefs and logic or training.

    And there is the problem, writ large.

    • Who?

      The actual problem is not her belief, logic or training, it’s the bizarre and abusive lengths to which she takes it. On other defenceless people, who can’t say no or get away.

      And again, where is the children’s father. That guy needs to either pick a side or revise the side he’s picked, before someone dies.

      • Chi

        What gets me, is that her eldest is 9. From my experience as a Cub leader, 9 year olds are pretty switched on and rational. So I find it VERY hard to believe that the 9 year old WASN’T telling mummy that she didn’t feel good. Which makes this woman even more disgusting because it means she was deliberately ignoring her daughter’s feelings in order to push her ideals.

        What kind of parent DOES that? How the HELL can you ignore a 9 year old who is coughing till they puke and telling you that they don’t feel well?

        • Nick Sanders

          The quote above has her saying the eldest is six and a half.

          • Chi

            Oops, yeah. Even still, 6 is old enough to remember this horror and to communicate their distress.

  • yentavegan

    I guess when these children acquire chlamydia as young adults,, their strong immune systems(thanks Whooping cough) will take over and they will be able to fight that off too without drugs.

    • Houston Mom

      I’m sure mom has a tincture for that.

      • Azuran

        Just pour bleach on the genitals.

        • yugaya

          Bleach enemas fix EVERYTHING. Naturally of course.

        • Gozi

          Or you can do what they did for my uncle when he was a child having “spasms”; just rub garlic on the bottom of their feet. Of course, their family were poor, black farmers during the Jim Crow days of Mississippi, so they had little choice.

  • Esther

    What gets me every time about stories like this is the alt-med trope how *they* treat the real root cause of the problem, whereas conventional medicine only covers up the symptoms with evil chemicals. Well, the root cause here was clearly the pertussis bacterium which had taken up residence in her kids’ respiratory tract. Tell me again how homeopathy and enemas were addressing that root cause?

    • lilin

      I’m guessing the answer is, “Ummmmmm toxins! Natural immune system! And also toxins!”

  • Kids have probably permanent damage to lungs… Thanks mum…

    • yugaya

      Older kids are traumatized for life – enduring months of health agony at such early age is something that stays with you forever.

      It’s an accusation in itself how nowhere in her victory lap blog she mentioned thinking about the kids and their long term emotional well-being and how it will be impacted by what those kids suffered.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        I had a single strep throat infection that was toxin positive and destroyed a good amount of the lymph tissue in my mouth and throat. So, afterward I got a lot of ear infections, strep throat, and then started getting tonsillitis at 9. I remember vividly hallucinating with fevers from the tonsillitis. It was quite traumatizing. I just wanted to edit to add the original strep throat infection was treated appropriately

        • Hoter

          This sequale is typical of a child who is vaccinated heavily, given antipyretics too for any malade. It is a shame your physician mismanaged everything before this event. It kind of explains why you are so psychotic about people who have done it properly. Thank you for telling us some of the truth

          • Fallow

            Are you the parachuting nutjob of the moment? It’s hard to tell due to how incoherent your comment is.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Funny, I was not vaccinated heavily and no one mismanaged my treatment. My daughter who was vaccinated much more than me had a typical course of strep throat and never got it again because it wasn’t toxin positive . You couldn’t know the truth because you are so deluded that you only see exactly what you want to see.

          • kfunk937

            I had a kid come in to the clinic I worked in (in the 90s) with full-blown scarlet fever. He was not vaccinated. Scary. We don’t do that for SF here in the states, but still.

          • Kathy

            So, your theory is no one ever had bad strep throat before vaccines? So, the Plague of Athens never happened? Or was everyone in 5th century BC Athens vaccinated?

          • Hoter

            Not at all Kathy. I wouldn’t take too much stock of ancient anecdotes, people have enough trouble with the bible

          • Kathy

            Unlike some of the Bible stories, there is scientific proof of the Plague of Athens. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19787658

          • Hoter

            “Despite Thucydides’ careful description, in the past 100 years, scholars
            and physicians have disagreed about the identification of the disease.” Kathy the myth purveyor

            Well that was an informative link, we only have the anecdotal descriptions and nothing scientific. Bit like the swine flu pandemic myth.

          • Kathy

            ” Based on clinical symptoms, 2 diagnoses have dominated the modern literature on the Athenian plague: smallpox and typhus.”

            Kathy for the slam dunk

          • Hoter

            “dominated modern literature” means nothing. Before we went to war with Iraq, the modern literature was peppered with lies about weapons of mass destruction. You cannot base an argument on an ancient anecdote, especially one based on modern medical opinion with all its biases and myths to boot.

            Once the world was definitely flat and people died who questioned it, it was a sphere then and still is.

            Anyway, modern RCT’s gold standard or EBM doesn’t allow clinical pictures to dominate evidence.

            And you point was?

          • Kathy

            Nice word salad. Totally meaningless.

          • Hoter

            You choose to believe in historic anecdotes – quite remarkable really, that is sad and utterly pointless

          • Kathy

            Evidence is the opposite of anecdote. Perhaps you would benefit from a local community college science course?

          • Hoter

            What so they can ‘retrain me’ to think like a septic and settle.

          • Kathy

            Well, perhaps English class would be a wise choice, too.

          • yugaya

            “Anyway, modern RCT’s gold standard or EBM doesn’t allow clinical pictures to dominate evidence.”

            That’s what happens when stupid goes for big words it knows not the meaning of.

            RCT is not a universal “gold standard” for vaccines. It would be inhuman and unethical to conduct them for existing vaccines that are already part of recommended immunization schedule.

          • Hoter

            Lookie like we hav anudder contendo for a TEFL course. It wud seem that most of theese supportas cunt spel nuffin. Yay RCT

          • yugaya

            Sorry, I only teach TOEFL courses. And your anglocentrism and bigoted ignorance that results from it were already noted in my previous reply.

          • Hoter

            That is an interesting septic sponge. No one knows what caused the plague of Athens because no one took a swab. There are lots of theories but no conclusive evidence to support a diagnosis. Strep throat has been around since the dawn of time. Vaccinations have never got rid of strep throat, it is such a common diagnosis any sane MD wouldn’t even raise their eyebrows.

            http://www.emedicinehealth.com/strep_throat/article_em.htm

            “Strep
            throat is most common in school-aged children and teens, with a peak
            incidence between 5 to 15 years of age. It is estimated that
            approximately 15% to 40% of cases of sore throat in this age group are caused by Streptococcus spp bacteria.”

            I don’t know where you get your myths on strep throat but if vaccination was supposed to get rid of it how do you account for it being the commonest associated bug in sore throat.

            More evidence of total vaccine failure, thanks, I enjoyed reminding myself of these facts.

          • Kathy

            I cited my sources.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            My father had a strep throat, unvaccinated, no antibiotics and almost died of rheumathoid fever. He has long term damage to his heart. Could you please provide an explanation???

            I did take antibiotics and antipyretics during strep throat infections, and was vaccinated agaisnt a lot of things. I have had a cardiac MRI and various other heart tests and all have proven to be perfect.

            I am very interested in your explanation.

          • Kathy

            Also, and I realize this is just an anecdote, but I was vaccinate more than most children in the 1960s, having lived in developing countries, and never once got strep throat even though my brother had it several times. Never had any throat infections, ever, not once in my 49 years.

      • Chi

        Exactly. I’m willing to bet that her eldest was TELLING her that she didn’t feel good. And that her middle child was TERRIFIED when he couldn’t breathe.

        What kind of parent ignores their children’s feelings like that to push their ideals? It’s disgusting.

  • Who?

    Did she heal it, or did the illness run its course and the children survived it?

    What a horrible, horrible woman.

    • Angharad

      She said it took 120-150 days for each child to make a full recovery, so 17-21 weeks! Pertussis is called the 100 day cough, so either her “remedies” actually made things worse or her children had a rough time because of their age. Or both.

      • Tiffany Aching

        Many essential oils are known allergens and can be very irrtating to the respisratory tract, so it is pretty likely that she made it worse.

  • Linda Rosa

    Another case where ideology trumps humane treatment of children. Grandpa needed to report crazy mom and feckless dad to CPS.

    • somethingobscure

      Right?? I mean this sounds pretty obviously like child abuse to me. It’s nuts that anyone would do this, let alone broadcast it to the world like its something to be proud of. She should be locked up, or at least the kids should be taken from her care. This is not sane, humane, or remotely acceptable behavior of a parent.

      • Chi

        What scares me is the number of commenters on the original blog post who were thanking her for sharing her story and saying that it means THEY can beat it naturally too.

        Stupid propagating more stupid. It really scares me that people are SO entrenched in this ‘natural is good above all else’ bullshit that they’re willing to risk their kids lives on it.

  • Gatita

    Munchausen by Proxy. Fucking terrifying. I hope her father calls DCS on her eventually.

    • Karen in SC

      I’m sure her father, the vet, will someday realize he treats his patiently more humanely.

  • hmmm

    Ghoulish, just ghoulish. To watch children suffer and all it does is reinforce the worldview that visited this upon them in the first place. Clearly, if a kid had died, that would have nothing to change her mind either. I wonder what future suffering awaits these children. This woman cannot learn, so they will suffer whatever her philosophy dictates.

  • somethingobscure

    This is fucked up.

  • areawomanpdx

    Most of what I want to say has been said already. Suffice to say, this woman is a negligent asshole of the first degree and should be on the nominating list for Worst Parent of the Year. But not much has been said of her claim she is a “Board-certified Naturopath.” First of all, i don’t think this designation exists. But it was mentioned below that she is a naturopathic student and not even a full-blown quack? Surely there is someone out there concerned about her fake pretend qualifications? I mean, they went to the trouble of making the qualification up, and there are some sort of basic requirements to call yourself that, aren’t there?

  • An Actual Attorney

    People who make me wish I believed in Hell.

    • Nick Sanders

      If you want, I can do a little extra believing for you.

  • Sarah

    Jesus wept. This is the worst thing I’ve ever read on here.

    I can rationalise the birth stupidity to a degree, because that does involve the mother’s body and what she wants to do with matters. I can’t say I like it when someone insists on UBA3C or whatever, but she has the right to do it and I am quite clear that what she wants must take primacy. This, though, is unbelievable. Getting the children vaccinated, or even as a bare minimum giving them antibiotics after they contracted it, wouldn’t have involved this woman doing anything at all with her body. It is inexcusable.

    • lilin

      Save a few tears for her broke-spine husband who sat back and watched his kids suffer because Mommy Dearest wants a blog post.

      • Chi

        Yeah if he’d had some friggin spine he would have loaded those kids in the car and taken them to a REAL doctor. Instead he let her take them to a naturopath who was quite happy to stroke her ego and empty her wallet.

  • Ash

    I think a lot of the naturopath’s original post can be summarized as “ME ME ME ME ME.”

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Yeah, apparently it was very difficult on her, but for the children it was just an immune building exercise

      • Trixie

        It was so HARD for her to get her NAPS.

        • sdsures

          Poor diddums.

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Check out her post about forcing her 3 year old to have a tongue tie cut, even though there was no medical reason to do so and the doctor recommended against it. The child was screaming and crying.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20151015085716/http://likemindedmamas.com/revision-day-a-post-on-lip-tonugue-ties/

    ——

    It was September 18, 2014. The day we would travel to Shelby Township, MI in order for two of my children, Lucien and Emilia, to have an interview with Dr. Annette Skowronski, DDS, FAGD. The four of us, my husband, Scott, Lucien, Emilia and I left the house at 5:45am. My oldest, Madilyn, stayed home with my mom, who the kiddos affectionately call Tayta. We packed the cooler, toys, the potty chair and naturopathic remedies including homeopathics, essential oils, flower remedies, tinctures and stones.

    Tonya, her husband, Adam, and son, Bryce, closely followed behind. Stephanie and her husband, Adam, and daughter, Elise, were steady in leading the caravan. Yes, all three of our families went, except Madilyn.

    It was 8:56am and we had arrived at our destination. Our interviews began. We were to go last. So we took a seat in the waiting room as the others went first.

    Though she had already had her lip and tongue tie revised in January, Elise went first. Elise had a class 1 tongue tie (to the tip) and a lip tie that went unnoticed for 14 months. Her revisions were done at 16 months. Eight months have gone by since Elise’s first revisions. There has been visible reformation of the tissue that was once the “Lip tie”, and there is asymmetry with Elise’s tongue movements, which have affected her speech development. Stephanie had many concerns, especially for cranial structure development, as well as how the reattachments are impairing speech.

    Dr. Annette’s words were, “No repeat revision necessary at this time. It would be traumatic for her and me. If we were to do it now, Elise would have to be sedated. We will re-visit a second revision when she is between four and six years old.” Trying to have a two year old sit still and cooperate even for 30 seconds is challenging. Elise has a class 2 tongue tie at this time which will have to wait until she can cooperate. This was disappointing news, but, Stephanie always has an optimistic philosophy of “all things for a reason.”

    She then interviewed Stephanie. Dr. Annette called her tongue tie a class 2 and stated that she would do it… IF Stephanie Really Wanted the procedure done. To which Stephanie said, “Oh Yeah! I want to experience the sensation of complete mobility of my tongue. I have lived too long wondering about my crowded teeth formation and chronic headaches.” Stephanie also wanted to be able to experience the procedure. She wondered what Elise went through. She wondered what the other young infants, toddlers, and children felt during this procedure and wanted to be able to verbalize it to parents and families.

    Bryce was next. Dr. Annette stated, “His mouth looks great. I wouldn’t do a revision on this kiddo.” This was actually surprising news to Tonya, her husband and us. There was so much commotion in the waiting room, that we were not able to really process this information properly in the heat of the moment.

    Next up was Lucien, my three year old. She looked at me and began asking her series of questions. Let’s be honest, I hadn’t really prepared for being drilled with questions on why I wanted my son and daughter lasered. I just expected her to want to do it. Doctors want to do procedures, they want to take your money, right? Not this doctor. She said three times during the interview with Lucien, “My job is to first do no harm.” And then she proceeded to tell me, “There is a slight tie, but I don’t think it needs to be done, really. What are you thinking?” We then had a conversation about why I thought it was necessary in my world of Naturopathy. This tiny piece of excess tissue, is NOT supposed to be there. This tie could cause life-long problems, that I did NOT want to be responsible for. As we talked, I believe she realized that I was not the average patient and she understood my concerns were vast, with these midline anomalies. Though she didn’t agree with everything I said, she agreed to do the revision.

    Last to be interviewed was my six month old daughter, Miss Emilia. Dr. Annette said right away how nicely her tongue moved in and out of her mouth and doubted that there was any tie. As she began the interview questions, I was much less formal than I had been with Lucien. I said, “Look at the shape of her tongue when she sticks it out. The heart shape is a concern for a tie. The lip does not flare, it simply tucks under, creating a hindrance for adequate suction for nursing.” As Dr. Annette began examining Emilia, she said, “This girl fooled me. There is a definite tie on both the lip and tongue. Can I observe her latch?” I immediately placed her to my breast. To which Annette responded, “This isn’t her typical latch, is it?” I nodded. She asked me to unlatch and latch again. I did. She stated how shallow the latch was and told me that I was some sort of a breastfeeding hero as many women would not be comfortable bearing through the pain that latch must have created in the beginning. I shook my head NO and said, “I am no hero, I simply know what is best for my kids. I will always do the right thing for them.” After about 10 minutes of her observing “Nursing Emilia” she stated, “I agree that she needs a revision.” Well shoot I thought to myself. She interviewed five cases and was only truly sold on Emilia needing this procedure. How can this be? She is not forcing, pressuring or even suggesting in the slight that this procedure need be done to the other four. Amazing.

    My heart was strong as I prepared for what was next. . . the actual procedure. I gave both children homeopathic chamomilla, smeared Lucien with Valerian Root Essential oil, gave him catnip and chamomile tinctures and then rubbed a generous amount of diluted clove oil on Emilia’s mouth. She was up first whilst we waited for Lucien’s remedies to kick in.

    She was swaddled, safety glasses were placed on her eyes and I was there to hold her. Dr. Annette was swift and steadfast in her craft. She didn’t spend more than 20 seconds on the tongue and quickly moved to the lip to which she spent a maximum of 15 seconds there.

    Again, I want to be honest with you… watching your baby be hurt is heartbreaking. I did NOT enjoy this process. It was painful for me to watch. It brought tears to my eyes. I did not enjoy this.

    My emotions began to take over. I wanted the laser away from her, now. I grounded myself. I asked for angelic assistance from Mother Mary, Arch Angel Raphael, and Arch Angel Gabriel. I immediately felt my strength return upon breathe of prayer. And the procedure was done. I picked her up, comforted her and gave her homeopathic hypericum (for nerve pain) and aconite (for shock). She began to calm within seconds. I placed her to breast and she soon fell asleep. I am thankful for the working remedies.

    I walked out to the waiting room to find Lucien nearly asleep in Scott’s lap. The remedies were working for him as well. I passed Emilia off to Adam (Tonya’s partner) and he cuddled her during her slumber.

    It was Lucien’s turn. He only had the tongue to be revised. I was nervous. The TV was turned on as a distraction for him. Cartoons turn the kid into a zombie. Scott sat down in the chair. Lucien sat on his lap. I gave him a Selenite crystal shaped in a heart (one Tonya gave me for my birth alter). I smeared his mouth with diluted clove oil. The glasses were placed on his face. Scott wrapped his legs around Luciens’ legs and began the bear hugging in order to hold his appendages from creating a problem. The suction was turned on. Everything was fine.

    Then the “Assistant Lady” tried to place the suction in his mouth and he began to FREAK out. He immediately clamped his mouth shut and began screaming. Nothing was happening. As Dr. Annette sat patiently with the laser in one hand and the tongue holder in the other hand, she simply talked to him in a gentle, calm and loving voice. She was truly the only one in the room not in panic mode. After about 90 seconds of Lucien clamping his mouth shut and screaming, Dr. Annette was able to slip the tongue lifter in his mouth and begin working. Roughly 20 seconds later, she was finished. Everything stopped. Scott released the bear hug. I gave him homeopathic hypericum and aconite. Within seconds he was laughing at his cartoon, saying he didn’t want to leave. Seriously? I couldn’t believe it. I thought he would have ran out of there like Speedy Gonzales! Or better yet the Road Runner! Nope he was calm and collective now that it was over. Wow, my remedy recommendations really do work!

    We headed for the waiting room. I sprayed Lucien and Emilia with Five Flower Remedy. Though three weeks of doing mouth exercises every 4-6hrs lay ahead of us, we were finished with the procedure.

    Now, it was Stephanie’s turn. She seriously dumped 10-15 drops of clove bud oil under her tongue and swished it around until Dr. Annette was ready. As I watched the procedure being done, Stephanie’s breathing seemed super shallow as if she were scared or in pain. I tried my Doula moves on and told her to breathe deep and just relax. When the procedure was finished, she said, “Dude, I couldn’t feel anything! My mouth was numb. I was just trying to not swallow all of my bloody spit.” She’s amazing!

    It was a Long Day. I am glad we did it. I am glad it’s done.

    Emilia’s latch has improved in positioning and suction. Lucien’s speech is already better. Emilia has been flicking, projecting and playing with her tongue’s new found movement.

    The last couple weeks have been interesting. I have a sweet little boy who is healing, and a young infant who is healing. It has definitely been harder on Lucien. This is another confirmation to me as a Mother and as a Naturopathic Doctor, that if the ties are present at birth, the best time to revise is, as soon as possible. It is a Big Deal. It is not something to not do if your baby can breastfeed.

    Dr. Annette really tried to talk each patient out of having the procedure done. She wanted to be certain there was a “good” reason that it be done. But once again folks, I stress this is not simply a matter of being able to successfully breastfeed of not. These ties create life-long ailments.

    It inhibits movement of the tongue.

    It creates misalignment in incoming teeth.

    It creates dysfunction of jaw movement and therefore the skull and therefore the brain and ultimately the entirety of the nervous system including the viscosity and flow of the cerebrospinal fluid.

    It occurs in the location of the energetic wells for placement of the governing and central meridian lines, which means an interruption in proper flow of “chi.”

    Ties are considered “Midline Anomalies” Tongue and Upper Lip Ties are midline anomalies which occur along the vertical axis of the body. Midline anomalies can involve the brain, spine, heart, genitals and midline of the head and face.

    In all honesty, I believe every tie should be revised. Having a tie is a hindrance in many ways. Research and anecdotal evidence are clearly showing the benefits of releasing these ties. They relate to how the restricted ties might affect breastfeeding, introduction of solids, airway development and function, digestive health, orofacial development, dental health, posture and pain, and speech development.

    In fact, I am so passionate about connecting the dots with a variety of professionals across the globe that Emilia and I (and my Mother, to hang out with Emilia while I am in session) to Montreal, Canada during October 7 -10, to take part in the “International Affiliation of Tongue-tie Professionals”. This summit allows for interpersonal communication among the professionals being faced with how to handle these ties, including; dentists, pediatricians, midwives, lactation consultants, nurses, medical doctors, craniosacral therapists, neonatologist, chiropractors, and I will be the first NATUROPATHIC DOCTOR. I am very excited to be a part of growing awareness on this topic.

    • Trixie

      Holy shit. And sprayed them with cheap brandy instead of giving them real pain relief.

    • Squillo

      WTF?

    • LizzieSt

      So she thinks circumcision is an evil form of child abuse, but also that babies should have their tongues cut without anesthetic.

      Isn’t this woman just charming?

      • mythsayer

        No joke. If he kid is born with a tongue tie, isn’t that the way the kid was meant to be?

    • sdsures

      The word “revision” is also used in neurosurgery, referring to putting in a shunt for hydrocephalus or replacing it. In babies, the whole procedure (insertion, in the video example) takes about 10 minutes, but it’s still major surgery performed under general anesthesia. I’ve had several revisions in my life, and they tend to take about an hour.

      What I’m getting at with regard to the above post is the quote: “I believe all tongue ties should be revised.”

      “It creates dysfunction of jaw movement and therefore the skull and therefore the brain and ultimately the entirety of the nervous system including the viscosity and flow of the cerebrospinal fluid.”

      No, it bleeding doesn’t! (I’m screaming at Heather, not you.)

      That gives me the creeps. Imagine a neurosurgeon saying this. The best surgeons are the ones who do everything possible to AVOID cutting into you, because of the risks of any type of surgery. It’s a risk-benefit thing. That’s why programmable shunt valves have gained in popularity, because before they came along, you’d need to surgically revise shunts if they stop working, and now, the surgeon can use an external magnet to adjust the pressure setting, no scalpels involved.

      The adjustment of a programmable shunt is an uncomfortable experience because the surgeon has to press the external magnet adjustor tool against the one inside your head, very firm pressure, to make sure there’s a connection. Once the doohickey is adjusted, he checks it again, to make sure the “setting” remains good. My last surgical revision in Canada before moving to the UK was putting in a new programmable shunt because, in neurodude’s words, “it wasn’t holding the charge”. In other words, the damned thing wouldn’t stay on the setting he wanted it to.

      • Sue

        Tongue tie affects “viscosity and flow of the cerebrospinal fluid”??

        Where do they get this nonsense?

        • sdsures

          Maybe I should tell it to my neurologist next time I see him, just to give him a giggle.

        • sdsures

          Well, you know how Heather Dexter thought enemas would speed her unvaxxed kids through pertussis?

          Maybe crunchies are obsessed with butt-holes.

    • areawomanpdx

      Oh, lawdy. Her “speech” to the doctor about breastfeeding through the pain of the tongue tie latch, (“I am no hero”) belies what we all already know … It is all about *her.* This woman needs a psych eval.

      • mythsayer

        She will always do the right thing for them…unless the right thin is getting them antibiotics. If those are involved, then it’s better to let them suffer for months.

        What I find amazing is that she doesn’t think antibiotics should be given out like candy. Not “not ever” but just “not like candy.” Soooo…if having her kids suffer for months isn’t a good reason to give them out, when WOULD a good time be? Would she get them if her kids came down with the plague, like that teenager in Oregon just did? I’m guessing not, since she thinks that the world managed to live through the plague several times. Never mind that it wiped out half of Europe a few times.

    • demodocus

      My kid accidently ripped his lip-tie partly open and only cried for a couple minutes. Without any aconite.

      • Nick Sanders

        I had my lower one sniped when I was a teen, because it was dragging my gums down off my front teeth. Bet I had a good doctor, and sane parents, so they gave me some kind of liquid oral sedative 24 hours in advance, then novocaine and nitrous during the procedure. All I could feel was a tugging in my mouth while I watched the pretty colors inside my eyelids pulse to the music he had on.

      • demodocus

        Tripping while eating an apple can be dangerous.

    • Trixie
      • Bugsy

        Thanks for sharing. It reminded me to book #2’s circumcision for next week.

      • rh1985

        How can she be against circumcision because she thinks it is painful and abusive and unneeded, yet think it’s ok to hold down a screaming toddler to have an unneeded tongue tie clipping with no anesthesia?

    • Nick Sanders

      This woman is insane. And I notice no matter how much the doctor defies her stereotypes, she refuses to let them be dented for long.

    • Who?

      So-assuming this is not some complex hoax-this is the same woman who wouldn’t get her children antibiotics when they were really sick with whooping cough, but would insist a doctor perform laser surgery for a non-problem on the same children?

      This is all about her, isn’t it? She’s the hero, victim of this story, with the kids for props.

      And where the hell is their father?

      • Wren

        Scarily, he’s right there too.

        • Who?

          But in his head, where is he? Scared of her, scared of losing her? Did he challenge her over the whooping cough, as she says he did, or is that her adding a bit more drama to the story?

          He’s either as nutty and dangerous as she is, or lazily complicit.

          • Wren

            They are equally possible. Heck, maybe he’s nutty and scared.

          • Who?

            Fair enough.

            Those poor kids.

          • Charybdis

            Or just beginning to fully grasp exactly how dangerous and deranged she is. Wondering how he hadn’t *really* noticed how batshit crazy she had become. Scared of having to explain to a doctor how things were allowed to get SO bad before saying something.
            Maybe he’s a submissive and she’s the dominant in the relationship. She has him in a sexual thrall and he is helpless to act on his own accord. She hypnotized him. She’s drugging him or he’s a victim of domestic violence. Maybe he really doesn’t care.
            Who knows, could be anything.

    • mythsayer

      Tongue tied are natural and therefore shouldn’t be “fixed.” These people have no idea how hypocritical they are. They are simply insane.

      She actively seeks to hurt her children. It’s amazing.

      And amazing that when she wants a doctor to do something the doctor is wrong for being hesitant, but you know that if she had a hospital birth, those evil doctors would be pushing every intervention on her in hopes of converting her to a CS.

      I have some kind of connective tissue disease and I’ve seen piles of doctors. In my experience, doctors are overly hesitant. They don’t want to do procedures or diagnose things unless they are pretty sure of something. But these crazies will never believe that.

    • AirPlant




      DUDE. I haven’t felt this horrified since I found out about Rachael Dolezal.

      • Nick Sanders

        Will I regret finding out who that is?

        • AirPlant

          Go ahead and Google. It is like a horrifying, hilarious train wreck that simultaneously manages to be deeply offensive and yet somehow not at all offensive.

    • Sue

      “Dr Annette” is a quack dentist:
      ” Our office offers a variety of natural dental products, for children and adults, that do not contain triclosan, sodium lauryl sulfate, peroxide, gluten, saccharin or other harmful detergents. Most of these products are also fluoride free. These products range from xylitol based toothpastes, rinses, chewing gums, oral/nasal sprays and mints/candies to probiotics.”
      http://www.dr-annette.com/

      • Houston Mom

        “Dr. Skowronski is also an advocate of a naturopathic methods for preventing and treating disease.”

      • Megan

        You know it’s bad when even a quack dentist doesn’t think your kid’s tongue tie should be treated…

      • Who?

        I fell into the clutches of a real dentist ie had the dentist qualifications and was a member of the professional association, who was into all this nonsense. Who knew there is no standard of care for dentists to apply to their patients?

  • Lemongrass

    Does anyone who is familiar with the process know how likely it is that she will face some sort of consequence from this story going viral and people reporting her to CPS?

    • LizzieSt

      Every state has different laws, but this case definitely falls under medical neglect.The mother would be more likely to face consequences if someone close to her, who actually observed the children, made the report. We can hope that someone will do that, now that this story has been made public.

  • sdsures

    Can bloggers like Heather not be arrested/prosecuted for child endangerment?

    • Lemongrass

      I think they can be. People have already allegedly contacted CPS. She gave out her full name and location on the blog.

      • sdsures

        I don’t know whether to applaud, gawk helplessly, or laugh that she has done that,

  • Lemongrass

    What the hell is up with these people’s obsession with enemas anyway? How is an enema going to help with pertussis? Christ on a cracker. Those poor children.

    • sdsures

      Paging Dr Freud.

    • rh1985

      and they were probably dehydrated from vomiting, too.

    • Andrew Lazarus

      They don’t believe in the Germ Theory of Disease, but the Filth Theory. And the enema will get rid of the filth.

    • carbonUnit

      It’s like trying to fix your car by flushing soot out of the exhaust system.

  • So I’m wondering if she quarantined herself and her kiddos to at least prevent the spread of pertussis to those who do not fare so well? You know the immunosuppressed and very young babies who are known to have a significant fatality rate from the disease. I get that individuals have the right to make their own choices around their own bodies – but that right ends when it infringes on the rights of others…so unless a person is willing to endure months on end of quarantine, vaccination is the price to pay.

    • Anj Fabian

      Well…sort of…kind of…not really…

    • Ash

      The original article says that the son did gymnastics class outside while having active symptoms

      • Nick Sanders

        What. the. HELL?

    • yugaya

      She is a doula and childbirth educator so no, she was actually directly and deliberately exposing pregnant women and babies to pertussis.

      • Bugsy

        In…fur…i…a…ting.

    • Sarah

      Of course she didn’t. Do you even need to ask?

  • Roadstergal

    Would you like a sadistic asshole cookie, Heather? You’ve earned it.

    • sdsures

      I was thinking more of a criminally negligent cookie.

      • Roadstergal

        Criminally negligent would be a nice official cookie to be handed. For the informal cookie – she’s LOOKING at her children suffering, extremely, over an extended period of time, and thinking, “Oh, that’s neat, let’s watch our baby go through that, too. It’ll make me super cool online.” Someone send her husband a copy of The Psychopath Test.

        • sdsures

          And a Kickstarter fund for a good divorce attorney…or a really good psychiatrist.

    • lilin

      Throw in a “spineless craven weakling” cookie for her husband.

  • Liz Leyden

    What was stopping the kids’ father from taking them to urgent care?

    • Trixie

      Well she did move out with the kids at one point.

      • Lemongrass

        Interesting. Where does she say that? I must have missed it in the post.

        • Trixie

          It’s in the whole original post, which she took down, but I know someone who saved a screenshot.

        • Ash

          naturopathic diaries has a screenshot of the original post in full. THe mother took the kids to her parents’ home for two weeks.

        • Trixie

          “I packed up all of our remedies and the kids and headed to my parents home for about 14 days. Let me just tell you that was the best thing I could have done. I had four extra hands most of the time to help juggle kiddos. I was also able to take a nap each day.”

          • Lemongrass

            Ah ok, thanks!

          • sdsures

            She’s REALLY patting herself on the back, isn’t she?

          • An Actual Attorney

            Why didn’t her parents intervene? If my kid ever shows up with grandkids in that state of medical neglect, grandkids to hospital and kid can suck it.

          • Who?

            Upvote that, and me too.

          • lilin

            I would say that, at this point, he has a really good case for getting primary custody.

    • Blue Chocobo

      Divorce is expensive and bitches be crazy.

      Not the best excuse, but an honest one.

      • Liz Leyden

        I’ve been close to 2 cases of medical neglect. Both were about single mothers using the kids as a pawn to stick it to the father, who lived in a different state.

        As a teen my sister ended up needing her wisdom teeth extracted. Mom refused to consent, despite Sis’s blinding headaches. My sister finally got her wisdom teeth out the week of her 18th birthday, and my father aid for it. He also took my little sister, who was 15, to the dentist, and consented and paid for the resulting root canal. He’d moved out a few years earlier, but that was one sign that leaving us in the care of a woman with untreated bipolar disorder and a martyr complex was not a good idea.

        I attended my first college when my state had a dual-enrollent program that allowed high school students to take college classes. (I didn’t qualify because I went to Catholic school and my town refused to participate, despite the community college about a mile from the public high school). Some of the college students blatantly pursued the high schoolers, and vice-versa, which made my on-campus job interesting.

        Anyhoo, I met a girl through my job whose father lived in another state. She developed tonsillitis so bad she had trouble swallowing, and her mother refused to treat it, saying “That’s your father’s job.” Finally, she went to dinner at her friend’s house. Friend’s Mom was a RN, noticed the swallowing problem, looked at the girl’s tonsils, and called Mom. Mom knew about the problem, but refused to get it treated. Friend’s Mom finally said “She needs to go to the ER. You can take her, or I can take her. Which will look better to DSS?” That woke Mom up. The girl ended hooking up with one of my colleagues and moved out of Mom’s house.

        In a nutshell, it really is all about the Mom, even if the child suffers.

      • Nick Sanders

        Also, society, and especially these nutjobs, have beaten it into us that, in matters of care and wellness, “mother knows best” and that anyone who disagrees, even the father, is almost certainly wrong.

        • Megan

          This is why today I told my husband if I ever went absolutely batshit crazy and did this kind of thing to our children to forget about me and take them to the doctor! (I seriously doubt that’d ever happen though). I even gave him permission to call CYS on me.

    • sdsures

      There is a post on FFF about when couple’s first child was losing weight, in an alarming fashion. Mom was EBFing, and had lots of milk in quantity…but it was of too poor quality to nourish the baby. The baby shrank and grew lanugo to keep itself warm.

      Finally the dad couldn’t stand it any longer and got the child to hospital, where they FFed it. Eventually the kid gained back the weight and survived.

      The mom did the same to the second child, only this time the dad intervened much sooner.

      There is no way for either parent to know the quality of the breastmilk was poor without having a hospital test it, right? (That, and your child is f***ing shrinking!)

    • Chi

      I strongly suspect that she threatened to call the cops and have him arrested for kidnapping if he attempted to take them to urgent care or something to that effect.

      Seriously wouldn’t surprise me if that was the case. Because unfortunately, because of the whole mother knows best BS, it’s very hard for men to get custody of their kids, particularly if they’ve been arrested for kidnapping. And all she has to say is that he hit her and that’s another layer of trouble.

      It sounds like an abusive relationship, with her as the abuser.

  • Amy M

    Oh and the antibiotics! Sure they shouldn’t be handed out like candy, but when someone is suffering a severe bacterial infection, that seems like a prudent time to take them. If she refused them for pertussis, what would she take them (or give them to her kids) for? Is she not aware that people still die of pneumonia, even in the US?

    • Liz Leyden

      The crunchy types in my area swear by garlic for infections.

      • Amy M

        Ugh. Well I guess if you eat enough garlic, people will stay away from you and you won’t be exposed to disease?

      • Houston Mom

        My brother used to eat the stuff raw to prevent colds. He carried a head of garlic and a kitchen knife in with him everywhere. He forgot about it at the airport until he had to explain his garlic therapy to the TSA agent who found the knife in his backpack.

      • demodocus

        Considering the garlic in my house, none of us should ever be sick. At least we’ve never seen any vampires about 😉

      • Who?

        Well if they are gobbling it raw no one will come near them which surely helps with the infection control.

    • Medwife

      You have to start antibiotics early in the course of the disease for it to do any good. http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/clinical/treatment.html So for the first one, that ship had sailed. The other two, especially her poor baby, could have been helped with antibiotics.

      • Sue

        At least treating the other two might have saved transmission to the baby.

        What an imbecile this person is!

  • Squillo

    While we are aware that this is all part of the territory of speaking our truths, our system wasn’t ready to withstand the ambush of attacks.

    See, you guys should have been exposed to harsh criticism as young children. That way you would have developed superior natural immunity.

    • Nick Sanders

      Zing!

    • lilin

      This is the best thing.

  • Amy M

    I’m sure someone’s already pointed this out, but isn’t it true that those 3 kids are NOT guaranteed lifelong immunity from pertussis, despite having had it? What good is “natural” immunity if it doesn’t protect any better than vaccine-induced immunity?

    • Liz Ditz

      You are correct, Amy M, surviving pertussis only confers immunity for about the same period as immunization.

      “A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4-20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4-12 years. Further research into the rate of waning of vaccine-acquired immunity will help determine the optimal timing and frequency of booster immunizations and their role in pertussis control.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15876927 Also see http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pert.html#vaccines

      • Kesiana

        …ouch.

        That woman has NO IDEA how INSANELY LUCKY she is that her family didn’t suffer anything like the O’Marra family did. They had diphtheria, not pertussis, but eight of their nine children died between April 14 and May 5, 1903.

  • Mel

    “We hadn’t slept longer than 2 hours in months. UGGGGGH. Sleep, it’s for the select few parents who probably drug their kids or lock them in their rooms. How I just wanted to sleep for six hours straight for just one night, it would have been miraculous. ”

    My sympathy for your lack of sleep is minimal compared to my compassion for your terrified, gasping, coughing until vomiting children.

    My parents never had that problem; they vaccinated us. Dumbass.

    • Elizabeth A

      Yeah, imagine the nerve of us bitches who look at our coughing, puking children and think “we can do something about this.” Who head for the ER the first time the baby turns purple, because oxygen is important. Look at the miracles we can have, because we stand on the shoulders of giants – of parents and doctors who came before us and said, basically, “fuck this suffering and dying shit, we can do better.”

      Yeah, we do get to sleep at night. Not only because we tuck our precious babies in and walk away (not all of us do that, even, although, ftr, it can really be a life-saving strategy). Also because we sleep the sleep of the just.

      • KarenJJ

        It takes a village. And in my “village” are some excellent doctors and medical professionals.

    • Blue Chocobo

      I proudly and gleefully “drugged” my kids with a select few vaccines, and haven’t been up all night with pertussis…ever. The miraculous part isn’t the 6 hours straight sleep, it’s the way the immune system responds to vaccines, making so many illnesses obsolete.

    • demodocus

      Croup was bad enough, and we took munchkin to the ER. By midnight

      • sdsures

        Scary! Hope he eventually recovered OK.

        • demodocus

          It’s been a year. He got croup a few more times last fall and winter, and is sort of borderline with his current cold. That last time the doc prescribed some anti-wheezing medicine, too. Scary but not pertussis scary.

          • sdsures

            *sympathetic fistbump* Having gunk in your lungs is not fun. Even though I get my flu shot every year, I usually get the flu, and it goes straight to my lungs, likes it there, and decides to stay for a while hang up curtains. My asthma just means my lungs are grottier during flu season.

    • Taysha

      My kids are neither drugged nor locked and I sleep great. Hell, even better when I can give them antibiotics when they’re sick and I don’t wake up every couple of hours to check on them.
      This whole thing makes my heart ache for those children. I can barely stand hearing my daughter cough (viral, just checked, again) and she feels pity for HERSELF when her kids are choking?

    • lilin

      That’s the line that put me over the edge. Before reading that I could believe that she was dangerously deluded. After reading that I could see that she’s just pure evil wrapped in a self-righteous martyr-complex.

    • Bugsy

      Yep. The select few of us who have kids who prefer sleeping in their own big-kid beds and sleeping through the night. I guess my son’s enjoyment of his own bed shows how much of a failed mom I am.

    • Wombat

      Note how neither she nor her husband got WC…. guess who else’s parents vaccinated them!

      • Sue

        That’s it! Of course she wouldn’t have acknowledged this.

  • Trixie
  • Squillo

    Unbefuckinglievable. And of course, the children’s father’s job was to support Heather, not to protect his children from her narcissistic idiocy. (He’s just the sperm donor, after all.)

  • Mel

    How did people survive the past plagues? Very poorly.

    My grandmother Turnbull nearly died during the 1918 flu epidemic. She was 18 months old. Her mom and grandmother took turns holding at upright so she could breathe, 24 hours a day, for 7 days.

    My Nanna Rose was crippled from polio.

    My husband’s grandfather nearly died of whooping cough. He was an infant, too. Honestly, his lungs never really healed.

    What did Grandma, Nanna and Grandpa do? Vaccinated everyone of their damn kids – and getting a smallpox vaccine makes the modern vaccines look quick and easy by comparison.

    Fuck that shit.

    • demodocus

      Dunno whether MIL is among the small percentage of folks for whom the vaccine didn’t work or if her cancer when she was 12 wiped out an earlier immunity, but she did catch rubella when she was pregnant and my 30-something spouse was born with cataracts.

    • Mel

      Plus, why the hell did she keep the baby in the house once the other kids were sick? Thirty seconds on Google makes it pretty clear that pertussis is nasty for all children – but scary bad for infants.

      • Charybdis

        Because she was a cosleeping nursling that needed Mama by her side at all times. You know, when she wasn’t having to clean up snot vomit and calm/soothe her non-breathing purple children.

        • Mel

          And presumably carrying microbes from the snot and vomit back to her infant.

          • Anj Fabian

            But didn’t her magic breast milk protect her baby?

            (pure snark. I know it doesn’t help against respiratory illness.)

          • Sarah

            Maybe if you inhale it.

          • Ash

            Per the naturopath “the best way to clear the lungs is through the rectum.” So…

          • Sarah

            She appears to charge money for advice that’s no less sensible than that, so why not?

          • Trixie

            I mean, I guess if you reach FAR enough…

          • sdsures

            *gigglesnort*

      • Angharad

        Because she thinks it’s a good thing for them to develop natural, non-antibiotic mediated, maximum suffering immunity.

    • Trixie

      My Grandpa had actual pertussis as a child. When I reminded him to check with his doctor to make sure he was up to date on his pertussis vax before my nephew was born, he was like, “What? We still have pertussis? Why on earth would we still have pertussis?” I had to explain it to him and he was enraged. He also was already up to date on his vaccines 🙂

      • Who?

        Mum tells horror stories of when she and her siblings had pertussis in the late 40s-one after the other.

        She, like your Grandpa, is outraged by these stories.

    • LizzieSt

      My great grandfather died of tuberculosis in a sanatorium in 1927. He was 34.

      My mother’s cousin caught polio the year before the vaccine came out. She survived, but her spinal cord had to be fused together.

      I bet all of our families have stories like this.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Yup. My great aunt died of TB at age 16 in a sanatorium.

      • Kesiana

        Can’t remember if I’ve ever shared this before, but when I saw the back of a family birth certificate from 1952, I had to scan it.

        (Edited for coding screwup.)

      • Liz Leyden

        I recently saw “Call the Midwife’s” 2013 Christmas special. One subplot includes a polio outbreak. The vaccine was available, but not widespread.

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      Granddad lost both of his parents to the 1918 flu. His parents were relatively recent immigrants, with minimal family here. He was the youngest of five and was about 12, but since he was the only boy he was then responsible for taking care of his older sisters.

      • kfunk937

        Yeah, I had some friends back in the 80s who were, at that time, in their 80s, who never married, because all the eligibles in their cohort had pretty much died (combination of WWI and flu, but mostly the flu). It ripped through young healthy adults like wildfire.

    • Kelly

      The saddest part about this was that parents back in the day were traumatized by their kids getting sick. This lady is not traumatized but seems to be energized by it. She is sick.

      • KarenJJ

        All those parents that witnessed life-threatening illnesses in their children who would have done anything, would hate to be used as an example to justify this woman’s delusions.

      • They knew back then that their kids could die. She seems completely oblivious to that fact.

    • Mariana Baca

      Even in the middle ages they understood the concept of quarantine and it was the only effective protective measure at the time. It is requires no medicine, and this woman could still not manage to separate her healthy children from her sick one.

  • Trixie

    I hope the husband has a wake-up call from this experience and takes whatever steps are necessary to protect his kids against future abuse at the hands of this woman.

  • Ani

    CPS needs to be called. Even though it’s long after the fact, anyone who would do this to their children unrepentantly should not be in custody of their children.

    • Fallow

      Some commenters on other sites discussing this, have indeed called CPS. Poor kids. CPS should have been called a long time ago.

    • kellymbray

      I have contacted CPS and so have others.

  • sleuther

    This is child abuse. Pure and simple. And she put so many other people at risk if she was indeed working as a homebirth doula or whatever.

    However, I just want to add my two cents re naturopaths that NOT ALL NATUROPATHS ENDORSE THIS NONSENSE. I see one who is sensible and understands enough about Western medicine to know when non-naturopathic treatment is needed. What this woman did should be illegal if it’s not already.

    • Ash
    • Roadstergal

      “I see one who is sensible and understands enough about Western medicine”

      No such thing. There’s just medicine that’s been shown to work, and medicine that hasn’t (or has been shown not to work). I work with plenty of scientifically minded people from India, China, Vietnam, and Japan, so no racist tropes, please.

      • sleuther

        Okay, well, no racist tropes here – I see an MD for most health concerns but my endocrinologist refused to prescribe natural thyroid T3 – he insisted on synthetic thyroid, which wasn’t working – and the only person who would work with me on this was a Naturopath. I finally have a life again where I don’t need to sleep 14 hours a day and I feel like a human being.

        I don’t think doctors are TEH DEBBIL but I do think that for some people in some circumstances, natural remedies can help. I certainly wouldn’t seek out a naturopath’s help for cancer, but for energy levels and wellness, I don’t mind trying something different to see if it works.

        • sleuther

          (and my family is all vaccinated!)

          • Sue

            Another very comprehensive article here:
            Treatment With Thyroid Hormone
            http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/er.2013-1083

            Here is a relevant extract:

            “E. Effects of combination treatment with T3 and T4

            T3 has a half-life of only 1 day in contrast to the long 6- to 7-day half-life of T4. Wide fluctuations in serum T3 levels can be observed after its administration (26). Given its short half-life, 3 daily doses of T3 are usually required to obtain physiological and stable circulating T3 levels (27). A modest 16% rise in FT4 with no change in FT3 levels can be observed in the first 4 hours after l-T4 administration (379). In contrast, a marked rise of 42% in FT3 levels can be detected within the first 4 hours (T3/T4:T4 = 6.24:4.63 mU/L, P < .001) after l-T3administration. Moreover, mean exposure to FT3, calculated as AUC is higher (l-T3/l-T4:l-T4 = 1148:1062, P < .0001) during l-T3 treatment (379). In addition, high FT3 levels can persist during chronic l-T3 treatment with potentially dangerous consequences on the heart and the onset of thyrotoxic symptoms (379).

            Several randomized controlled studies have evaluated the effects of combination therapy withl-T3 and l-T4. Several of these studies have had a parallel design, and others were double- or triple-blinded controlled studies with an appropriate crossover design (26). Three meta-analyses have evaluated the effects of combination treatment with l-T3 and l-T4 vs l-T4 alone (380–382). The l-T4/l-T3 combination therapy had no advantage when compared with standardl-T4 monotherapy in the meta-analysis performed by Grozinsky-Glasberg (380) on 11 RCTs, including a total of 1216 hypothyroid adult patients. In this examination, bodily pain, depression, anxiety, fatigue, QOL, body weight, total serum cholesterol and triglycerides, serum LDLs, and high-density lipoproteins were not different during treatment with l-T4 alone and during combination therapy with l-T4 and l-T3 (380).

            Similar results were reported in the meta-analysis by Ma et al (381) published in 2009, which included studies on a total of 1243 patients. l-T4/l-T3 combination therapy was not superior tol-T4 monotherapy in terms of psychological and physical well-being with no statistically significant differences in the other variables. The third of the meta-analyses, by Joffe et al (382), on 9 controlled studies found no considerable differences of combination l-T4 plus l-T3therapy vs l-T4 alone on psychiatric symptoms."

            It might be useful to get all your providers to review this paper and give an opinion on the evidence it presents.

          • sleuther

            Thank you. This is very interesting!

        • Trixie

          Uhh…eating a bunch of pig thyroids is pretty imprecise and a naturopath is in no way qualified to determine if your hormone levels are safe. You need an endocrinologist. You could be doing permanent damage to yourself. Please don’t do that.

          • sleuther

            Uhh… I had an endocrinologist. I wasn’t converting T4 to T3 so even though my TSH levels were within range I had zero energy. Why do you assume that the naturopath isn’t qualified to look at lab results? He is actually much more concerned with the full bloodwork (including reverse T3 and other numbers that I never heard mentioned at the endo’s) and is ordering much more frequent blood tests than the endo ever did, and adjusting the dose accordingly.

          • Trixie

            Because a naturopath isn’t a medical doctor who didn’t go to medical school and has no idea what the hell he’s doing. You can actually do long term damage to yourself if your levels are too high. You need an endo. If you don’t like the endo you had, get a different one. But go to a real endo. Your naturopath could also be missing more serious health problems like, god forbid, thyroid cancer. You need a real doctor.

          • sleuther

            I’m not saying I’ll never go to the real endo again (no endo’s in my area prescribe T3, so I’m expecting a dressing-down when I next speak with him. A friend of mine in L.A. got her endo to prescribe Cytomel with her levothyroxine and saw marked improvement, lucky her.) My levels actually *were* too high at the beginning of treatment, we reduced the dosage and now they are fine and will be checked again next week at Quest Diagnostics.

            I suppose there is some element of risk in pursuing this option, but I believe that the risk is warranted because it’s nice to, like, have a life again when my endo would not believe what I was saying (which was that I wanted to at least TRY T3 to see if I felt better on it.) All I know is my experience. And like I said, I expect to be lectured next time I go to the endo. But I couldn’t live like that any longer with no energy. We all make choices. I’m good.

          • Trixie

            There’s a BIG element of risk in having a person with no medical training prescribe thyroid hormones. Risk like permanent cardiac damage. I really hope you’ll stop seeing this quack and find another endo that you like better. I am honestly frightened for you.

          • sleuther

            He’s not a quack, but if I could find an endo who would work with me, I’d probably prefer it. Do you recommend calling all the endos in my county to find one who prescribes T3? (I somehow doubt they’d give that information out over the phone.)

          • Trixie

            He is by definition a quack. He’s a person who is not a doctor pretending to be a doctor and treating something he’s not qualified to treat.

          • sleuther

            Okay, we can agree to disagree on that.

            Do you have any recommendations for actually finding an endocrinologist to work with who’s okay with Cytomel treatment? I’m not being facetious, I’m asking an honest question. I don’t want to go to 10 different endocrinologist appointments just to get that one bit of information. I don’t think endos are bad people but I do think that there are things about my condition that are either not well understood by the medical community or glossed-over as just whining.

          • Trixie

            No, we can’t agree to disagree. He’s a quack. An incredibly dangerous quack. Nowhere in any naturopathic training is anyone trained on prescribing thyroid hormone replacement therapy. He’s basically just googling shit and taking your money.

            Nor do I think you should doctor shop for the treatment you think you need which you may or may not actually need. If you are unsure perhaps you should start with a regular family practice doctor who could refer out as necessary.

          • sleuther

            Yes, well I tried that approach and basically just got prescribed Synthroid. Which doesn’t work for me anymore (ever since I had kids, something happened.) The naturopath’s treatment makes me feel a lot better (no more brain fog, much more energy.) I will, however, be sharing my lab results with the endo and I will be honest with him about what I’m doing.

          • Trixie

            Well, that’s a great start. There could be something more serious going on here. I understand it’s frustrating and I understand you’re feeling better. But you could be harming yourself in the process. What exactly is the naturopath prescribing you?

          • sleuther

            It’s natural desiccated pig thyroid. It’s a supplement not a drug (naturopaths cannot prescribe drugs in my state.) I’ve had Hashimoto’s thyroiditis since age 15. Synthroid worked until I had kids, but after that I was tired ALL. THE. TIME. Getting my Synthroid dose correct after both pregnancies was tough and it took about a year – I needed a dose that is not manufactured. Ended up on a split dose of 150 mcg alternate days with 137 mcg. And even on that, I was TIRED. Crazy tired.

          • Trixie

            Consider that it’s impossible to precisely measure the dosage from desiccated pig thyroid.

          • Nick Sanders

            Supplements are drugs. Well, at least ones like this that contain actual active ingredients, as opposed to useless filler.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Respectfully, what you have to say doesn’t make sense from a physiologic standpoint, and also is not backed by scientific studies.

            This idea that Synthroid did work for you, but that your body can no longer convert it, but yet your TSH is still normal, has absolutely no basis is physiology. It’s not true that the thyroid system is “not well understood by the medical community”, the pathways have been well elucidated. And well controlled trials have been done looking at added T3. Certain patients may swear by it but when they enter randomized double blinded studies no difference is found.

            Do you really believe that a naturopath knows more about thyroid pathways than an endocrinologist? That somehow nearly all endos refuse to prescribe T3 out of ignornace or stubbornness, but all naturopaths have special info that the endos have somehow missed and so they all prescribe it? The reason endos won’t prescribe it is because they know it is total bunk. They are not going to waste a patient’s money prescribing a remedy that has been proven not to work, all the while wasting a patient’s precious time and possibly their long term health because the real reason behind their fatigue is ignored. There are many, many reasons for fatigue, including serious ones. Including serious ones that naturally wax and wane.

          • sleuther

            I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Really, I do — I am generally not a person into ‘the woo’ (or the ouroboros of woo, as someone pointed out up-thread – I really loved that one). It took a LONG time of me feeling REALLY, REALLY BAD to get up the courage to look at other options for my thyroid. I had two – TWO! – sleep studies done at the hospital, and they ruled out Sleep Apnea but did diagnose me with Idiopathic Hypersomnia. Which is basically Latin for ‘you’re lazy’ (okay, not really, but pretty much.) The only treatment offered was Ritalin, and I don’t want to start with that (and to his credit, the pulmonologist offered it but didn’t seem too keen on it either and seemed relieved when I said I didn’t want it.)

            The naturopath didn’t just focus on the thyroid – he also tested my Vitamin D and iron levels, both of which were very low. Which was surprising to me, because I’d been to my GP several months ago and got diagnosed with Low D and she put me on supplements, which I took religiously for eight or nine months, and come to find out they weren’t even making a dent in the deficiency according to the lab work (the naturopath uses Quest Diagnostics, same as the GP.) He put me on a high-dose D twice a week to be taken with something containing healthy fat, which I cleared with the GP and she was actually on board with that. Plus iron twice a day. And some of the stuff he tested was actually fine – cortisol for example.

            Anyway, I can’t argue with what’s working, but I do want to return to my Endo and present him with what is actually WORKING for me (T3), and if I can get him to prescribe Armour or NatureThroid (which are drugs not supplements) OR use a combo T4/T3 therapy like Synthroid with Cytomel – I’d do that in a second. But I doubt he will listen because “Synthroid is the accepted treatment.” Even though not everyone converts T4 to T3. I feel like no one understands what I’m going through with this and I don’t want to live the rest of my life as a zombie. Thanks for reading. This felt good to write.

          • Sue

            Here is some additional information:
            http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/MTP2.9781936704637.ch59

            “There is discussion in the lay press indicating that administration of T4 alone gives insufficient T3 for many of the tissues resulting in decreased quality of life. However there are very few scientific, peer reviewed studies supporting this hypothesis. Approximately 20 million Americans are hypothyroid and the vast majority is being treated with levothyroxine alone. The significance of this clinical problem would be high if T4 administration alone is inadequate for these patients. Endocrinologists, also, are frequently put in a difficult position when patients read the lay literature and ask for additional T3 when they are taking T4. “

          • sleuther

            thanks…. I clicked through and read it. Very interesting.

          • Sue

            ” I don’t think endos are bad people but I do think that there are things about my condition that are either not well understood by the medical community”

            Do you think there’s some secret science or evidence that has been hidden or not understood by conventional medicine?

          • Sue

            sleuther – why should your endocrinologist “believe” a suggestion that goes against their knowledge and expertise? Wouldn’t they be negligent to do so?

            People feel better for all sorts of reasons – validation of their symptoms, a sympathetic ear – even placebo “remedies” like homeopathy. We all want to feel that we are being taken seriously, but that doesn;t mean that our self-diagnoses are always correct.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “including reverse T3 and other numbers that I never heard mentioned at the endo’s”

            Because it’s all bullshit.

          • Sue

            Sorry, sleuther – but I have to agree with the others. What degree of specific training does your naturopath have in relation to the assessment, diagnosis and treatment of thyroid disease, compared to an endocrinologist?

            Can your naturopath;s diagnosis be verified?

            “Tiredness” and “wellness” are common and multifactorial. It’s natural to want a treatable cause, but it’s also sensible to be cautious about the validity of the diagnosis.

            In short, if a naturopath disagrees with a specialist endocrinologist, it;s likely that the former is wrong, not the latter. There isn’t any special science that is being hidden.

        • Taysha

          Devil’s advocate – it’s actually a real thing to need natural T3. The compound is manufactured under the name Armour and it contains T3 and T4.
          It’s difficult to get doctors to diagnose it, but I know several women currently using it because synthroid did not control their thyroid issues (under endocrinologist care, I might add)
          You may want to take the evidence to your endo (I’m assuming you’re in the US, since I know most people have a hell of a time getting that prescribed there).

          • sleuther

            Thank you, Taysha. I appreciate your words of support and encouragement!

          • Taysha

            I would, like most people, prefer endocrinologist support for any treatment. I have heard from women on this medication, but mostly in Europe as the FDA has not approved it. I fully believe it’s not for everyone and the people I know are very special cases.
            Whether you are in the same category as them, I can’t say, but please make sure you’re monitored regularly by an endocrinologist.

          • kfunk937

            You may want to take the evidence to your endo

            But the “evidence” appears to be lacking altogether in your comment. Do you have any? Let’s say, some high-quality peer-reviewed studies? That would really help. Thx.

    • Trixie

      All naturopaths endorse woo. Avoiding actual medical treatment is always dangerous. Naturopaths DON’T know enough about “western” medicine AKA evidence-based medicine to refer out. That’s bullshit and it’s dangerous.

    • Bombshellrisa

      “What I offer is unique to other birth attendants, in my training and ability to utilize various natural modalities in addition to the standard doula training, these modalities can be options prior to the necessity of medical interventions. Included in my birth kit are; essential oils, herbs, tinctures, floral essences, homeopathics, tuning forks, and more.” I thought doulas were not supposed to be giving medical advice. I know, I know, herbs and tinctures aren’t technically “medicine” but still, she believes that they are going to treat something and help avoid interventions. All that for $800!

      • Houston Mom

        Tuning forks? That’s one I haven’t heard before.

        • Mel

          Based on a google search of “tuning forks natural modalities” I guess you whack a tuning fork and hold it against an acupuncture point for general soothing.

          Probably not harmful, but not very useful either.

          • Trixie

            Actually our doctor demonstrated once an old method of determining whether there was fluid in the ear by holding a tuning fork against the head. It was kind of neat.

          • Katia

            Yes, I seem to recall something like that in my physical assessment class all those decades ago.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_test I presume that would be the Rinne and Weber tests. They’re used to differentiate between conductive and sensorineural deafness. But of course that makes sense Grima science point of view, unlike the woo listed above.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Damn autocorrect- Grima should be “from a”

          • Empliau

            A new science based on Lord of the Rings villains sounds about right. If they have flower essences, can Grima science be far behind? Sauron labs, Morgoth grants …

          • Houston Mom

            http://supernalliving.com/2013/07/24/tuning-into-sound-therapy/ This person is claiming the sound could induce labor. Someone else said it makes our bodies puff (?) nitric oxide which will destroy bacteria & viruses. http://www.biosonics.com/Nitric-Oxide-and-Tuning-Forks.html It is best understood as part of the “energy healing paradigm” according to the folks at Biosonics.

          • demodocus

            If tuning forks induce labor, why aren’t women in chorales and orchestras told to avoid going to practices when pregnant? *eye roll*

          • An Actual Attorney

            “sound could induce labor” — kind of like the “brown note”?

          • Blue Chocobo

            But not ultrasounds. Those cause unnecessarians and autism and turn your breast milk into Enfamil.

          • kfunk937

            Ugh. Just can’t.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            I dunno. Granted, I’ve never been in labor, but I suspect that if I were and someone tried touching me with a buzzing tuning fork, that fork would require an enema to remove.
            On the other hand, shoving that tuning fork to its ultimate location probably *would* relieve some of my pain, or at least distract me, so win-win!

      • Tuning. Forks.

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m glad you understand that this was child abuse, but there is never a time for naturopathic medicine.

    • Sue

      Rather than seek out a naturopath who “understands” western medicine, why not go to a provider who is actually trained in it?

  • OttawaAlison

    I had pertussis mildly for 3 months when I was 7 (I had been vaccinated). It was actually misdiagnosed as asthma at the time. We only later on learned that another girl who had been diagnosed as “asthmatic” at the same time as me in my class was told she had been misdiagnosed – it most likely had been pertussis.

    It still was not a walk in the park, I coughed constantly.

    • Gatita

      My husband and got pertussis five years ago after our vaccinations presumably wore off. It was hell, absolute hell. Coughing over and over all day until I could barely sit up and my diaphragm and stomach muscles ached. You know who didn’t get it? My kid. Because he was recently vaccinated. You’d better believe I’m getting boosters going forward.

  • Are you nuts

    Is a patient with pertussis contagious the whole time they have symptoms? I wonder how many other people they infected.

    • Esther

      No, only for about the first 3 weeks of symptoms. But she had 3 children…

  • Stacy48918

    I would just like to point out that it was a veterinarian between that first called her on her shit. 😀

    Yes, this is abuse.

    • Houston Mom

      How is that these poor kids had no one in their lives to call CPS and report the neglect? If I did something that stupid to my kid, I know there would be multiple calls to CPS on my son’s behalf. Except my husband would have made sure he had his shots, and no way in hell would he just stand there all mealy-mouthed and tell me he was “worried” while our son coughed and puked for months. Awful parents and extended family. This idiot is studying to be a naturopath so she can export her kids’ misery to other families.

      • Stacy48918

        I’m willing to bet they homeschool…

        • Trixie

          Correct, she stated in the original piece that they homeschool.

        • Charybdis

          Yep. They homeschool. The boy was going to his gymnastics class/lesson the entire time he was coughing, hacking, puking and turning purple. Because, you know, it wasn’t contagious at that point in time. And fresh air and exercise are the best medicine for kids. ( All according to her original piece).

          There. Are. NO. Words. For. This. Wait, I found the words: (%&*$&#^@!!! (that’s cartoon swearing :P)

      • demodocus

        if I felt strongly enough, my husband would probably go along with me even if he disagreed. The only exception is spanking (which I don’t feel that strongly on anyway.)

        • Mel

          My husband wouldn’t go along on something that is making the kids suffer. He would have made the appointment to go see a doctor, gotten the kids medical help, and if I refused to get counseling – because this would only happen if I was severely mentally ill – taken our hypothetical kids and left.

          • demodocus

            He takes “not forcing” to an extreme. And he’s scarily easy to gull. He’s himself and I love him, but it’s a darn good thing I have common sense.

        • Houston Mom

          My husband would give on minor things, like he hates variegated and tropical plants. If I insisted on planting variegated gingers in the front yard, he would give in and only fantasize about killing them. If I had insisted on no vaccinations or doctor visits, he would just have taken the kid himself. I’ve never been questioned about my husband’s consent to any vaccines or treatment when I’ve taken our son by myself.

      • LizzieSt

        This is what makes me angriest of all. Someone could have put a stop to this at any time. At the very least, they could have filed a report. But from what I’ve read, it seems that no one dared to.

        And if I ever tried to pull this nonsense, my husband would have thrown the kids in a taxi (hopefully not infecting the driver) and taken off for the nearest emergency room.

        Happily, he’s the son of a nurse and I’m the daughter of a doctor, so we know better.

    • Trixie

      Sure, because vets see dogs die of bordetella all the time!

    • CharlotteB

      I’d take my kid to a vet before I’d take him to a naturopath. I’d also rather see a vet than a CPM if I were in labor away from a hospital.

      • Stacy48918

        No way! Haha. I know my limitations. Someone wants me to attend their labor, I’m calling 911 and punting their ass so fast! LOL.

        • Elizabeth A

          Your version of punting involves getting better trained care providers involved. This makes you more useful than a lot of midwives.

  • Catherine Emerson

    She’s a doula – she was swimming in pertussis while operating a home birth business. She should be in jail. http://myearthmother.weebly.com/about-heather.html

  • k_cayte

    I couldn’t finish reading that. I would do anything so that my children wouldn’t have to suffer pain. I can’t prevent every spill and tumble, but I sure as heck can prevent 6 months of agony with a simple vaccine.

    • crazy grad mama

      This. Every time my kid bonks his head (and he’s learning to walk right now, so it happens fairly regularly), part of me feels like I’ve failed as a mother. I just can’t even conceive of deliberately inflicting months of illness.

  • fiftyfifty1

    “Heather could have alleviated her children’s suffering AT ANY TIME during these 6 months. All she had to do was to take them to a real doctor and get antibiotics”
    No, actually not. Once the whooping phase of pertussis has started it is too late, the antibiotic will not fix the cough. The damage is done, and it takes months to heal (if you don’t die first). The reason antibiotics are given is to keep it from speading to others. If she had treated her older kids immediately and put the baby on prophylactic antibiotics, she could have at least spared the baby.
    My mom and aunt did this. My 2 youngest sibs got whopping cough and gave it to my young cousins. The youngest cousin landed in the ICU and has breathing problems to this day. Luckily my mom became anti-vax after the point in time when I had already received my pertussis series, so I didn’t catch it.

    • Anj Fabian

      I assumed that someone would have beaten me to this point.

      The reason that vaccinating for pertussis is so important is that the window for effective antibiotic treatment is very early and very narrow.
      By the time the symptoms are obviously more than a simple cold, the window of opportunity may have passed.

    • Fallow

      What is done to ease the suffering of pertussis patients? Can anything help them feel less horrible, at least?

      • Anj Fabian

        Once the opportunity to use antibiotics effectively has passed, you can treat the symptoms only.

        But you can do a lot more than leave them to cough until they vomit!

  • Megan

    Just got an email this morning reminding physicians that we should t dismiss antivaxxing families from our practices per the AAP. When these people as so cavalier about their own kids’ health, how are you supposed to protect other children in your practice?? I know they say “educate” them but studies have shown these people refuse to be educated. What is one, as a responsible HCP supposed to do??

    • Karen in SC

      reserve the last couple of appointment slots just for them, maybe?

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        How is that fair? Most working parents try to get those late in the day appointments so they don’t have to miss even more work.

        And as for making sure to schedule the unvaccinated away from the vaccinated, how would that even work? Most pediatrician’s offices have one big waiting room with magazines, books and sometimes toys to keep the kids busy. Are the doctors staff going to have the time to disinfect the waiting room chairs, tables, etc. between groups of patients?

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Not just that, but airborne viruses like measles and CP can stay alive and airborne for hours.

          • Trixie

            And can’t hepatitis B live for even longer than that?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Yes. Days and days.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Thank you, I remember my daughters Dr would ask people who suspected their kids had chicken pox wait in the car and the doctor would come to them. They did not want a case of CP loose in their waiting room.

        • Megan

          Plus that would require the front desk staff to keep track of who doesn’t vaccinate and I guarantee that would fail. The bigger problem for me is, I work for a large health system so I don’t get to call any shots (no pun intended). The only thing I could do is dismiss patients. And that probably wouldn’t go over well if a pattern was noticed by the higher ups or as soon as any family complained. It would not be “good customer service.”

    • demodocus

      Make sure to schedule folks you know are compromised quite a bit away from the unvaccinated?

    • Liz Leyden

      A separate waiting room? Just-before-lunch and end-of-day appointments?

      • Ash

        So now every practice has to pay to add a room to their clinic just for unvaccinated patients?

      • Katia

        The office where I worked had two sides to the waiting room, sick and well, but patients didn’t always observe that. One time, I called a teen back with suspected pertussis and he was sitting on the well side near a newborn! His mom said, “We don’t know if he really has pertussis yet”. What the Hey? He was sick and coughing! Also, not everyone sick has a VPD. Kind of unfair for the strep cases to have to sit with the pertussis patients.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          One time, I called a teen back with suspected pertussis and he was
          sitting on the well side near a newborn! His mom said, “We don’t know
          if he really has pertussis yet”. What the Hey? He was sick and
          coughing!

          “Hey, dumbass. If you are here because you think you are sick, go to the SICK waiting room.”

          The well-waiting room is for authorized patients only. If you have to ask, you aren’t authorized.

          • Katia

            It was too late by then; I was taking him back to the doctor, out of the waiting room.

    • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

      Give them a choice: Get caught up on their vaccines(with strict timetable), or find another doctor. It’s not fair to possibly expose other peoples babies to VPD that they are too young to be vaccinated against.

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      What our (really big) ped practice did was this: kids who aren’t vaxxed and who are coming in with what sounds like a VPD are told to come in on a certain day. No other patients go to the office that day, and the office gets professionally cleaned to medical standards afterwards.
      From what I understand, the sheer annoyingness of “I’m sorry your kid has what certainly sounds like pertussis, but we can’t see them until next Friday because we have to reschedule all of our other appointments that day and arrange to have the office scrubbed down afterwards” significantly reduced the non-vaxxed client load. No, it wasn’t terribly fair to the non-vaxxed kids that they’d have to wait, but there was no way in hell that the ped was going to have them expose newborns in particular to, in the most recent case, pertussis.
      (I have no idea if this is particularly feasible, having never run a medical office; I just offer it as what the ped’s office told me they did with such kids.)

  • Megan

    “Then last week, the story found itself in the hands of those who are out to destruct.”

    Actually, Heather it’s pertussis that is out to destruct. But you were more concerned with the destruction of your ego than your children.

    These people make me sick!

  • kilda

    OMG. How did people get through the Spanish flu? and the Black Plague? The disease whose other name was the Black DEATH? Here’s a hint – most of them didn’t. That may possibly be the stupidest thing anyone said ever.

    • An Actual Attorney

      Ppl still get the plague. Just with antibiotics and modern medicine it can usually be cured.

      • Katia

        There were two deaths from plague this year in Colorado.

    • Fallow

      There is a cemetery in my hometown that was specifically created to bury victims of the Spanish Flu. I’m sure it’s one of many.

      • kfunk937

        The town I was born in mentions it specifically on their webpage. They had 3 or more deaths per day, in a town of only 3.000 people. Horrifying.

  • Angharad

    This made me sick to my stomach. I can’t even imagine wishing such a horrible experience on helpless children. I notice her suffering was limited to waking up in the night, probably because her parents had her vaccinated to keep her safe.
    This is the ugly flip side of antivaxxers who think diseases aren’t that bad or just don’t know how terrible vaccine preventable diseases are- she knows and she thinks it was worth it.

    • That’s what I was thinking: she and her husband didn’t get sick. Why? THEY (presumably) HAD THE FUCKING VACCINE.

      This is horrifying.

      • Anj Fabian

        They probably associated with other home schooling, non vaccinating families.

        That’s the problem…when your particular herd doesn’t have immunity, your herd can become an endemic source of communicable illness for the larger community.

        • Amy M

          My babies were born pre-term, in the winter. I live in a high-vaccinating area, but one of my fears was that I’d run into someone with pertussis out in public or something and my babies would die. I shouldn’t have had to worry about that, there’s a goddamn vaccine.

      • Sarah

        That’s what I thought. This sort of thing would be Darwin in action, but these absolute fucking idiots make sure the children are the ones to suffer not themselves.

        • Hoter

          This just isn’t true. I was vaccinated for whooping cough and got it. Look at how many kids have atopy now, research shows us that you are 5x more likely to have asthma if you get the whooping cough vaccine – how many parents are told that. When I was a kid, hardly anyone had asthma, now schools are full of atopic kids, inhalers and epi pens. It is the same in the country and the city, so it isn’t environmental, those studies have been done. Stop repeating a septic meme about suffering children – it is bullshit

          • Sarah

            Your face is bullshit.

          • Hoter

            all you have is a flawed appeal to emotion to sell this snake oil, there is no science, just paid for nonsense and you should be ashamed of it.

          • Sarah

            I sell cake oil.

          • Wren

            a) It is well known that whopping cough immunity wears off, whether achieved through vaccination or surviving the disease.

            b) Kids who are vaccinated generally see doctors more and are more likely to be diagnosed with asthma and allergies. Mild asthma and allergies often go undiagnosed for years even with regular doctor visits.

            c) There is both better awareness and more acceptance of allergies and asthma. I know kids I went to school with who didn’t want anyone to know they had asthma, while kids now don’t have that same desire to keep it quiet.

  • LizzieSt

    Dear. God. This story nearly made me cry. What a damned narcissist.

    This is medical neglect of the worst kind.

    The worst part of all (well, not as bad as the untreated pertussis, but almost) is that there were people around this woman (her husband and father) who realized that this was wrong………and yet they did nothing. You’ve heard the phrase “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”? It came to my mind here.

    • yugaya

      The worst part is that Heather Dexter is a doula and childbirth educator, who has “assisted over 75 couples in Natural Childbirth Education. She has had the privilege of being invited to assist 50 couples in both the home birth and hospital birth settings as a doula and birth advocate. ”
      http://myearthmother.weebly.com/about-heather.html

      Hopefully these hospitals will be informed of her unvaccinated status and the way she put all of their patients at risk deliberately and will prevent her from attending births there in the future.

      • Roadstergal

        Can hospitals do that? A doula is basically a ‘friend of the family’ who’s just there for the ride as far as the hospital is concerned, yes?

        I mean, they struggle to get effin’ _nurses_ to stay vaccinated. 🙁

        • LizzieSt

          Uh huh. I had a coworker who refused to get the flu shot because her mother’s cousin’s aunt’s sister’s dog’s cat’s mailman’s best friend developed Guillain-Barré syndrome after being vaccinated.

          Eventually it was put-up-or-shut-up and she had to either agree to be vaccinated or wear a mask while seeing patients. She chose the flu shot.

          She was a social worker (giving all of us a bad name!) not a nurse, but still. She could have passed on influenza to some very vulnerable patients.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I had a coworker who refused to get the flu shot because her mother’s cousin’s aunt’s sister’s dog’s cat’s mailman’s best friend developed Guillain-Barré syndrome after being vaccinated.

            The original swine flu vaccine was associated with GBS. Do you know how many cases of GBS resulted from that vaccine?

            1) Less than 50
            2) 50 – 250
            3) 250 – 1000
            4) 1000 – 5000
            5) More than 5000

            Upvote when you have your answer in mind.

          • LizzieSt

            You mean the 1976 swine flu? I believe the answer is 1.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yep. There were somewhere on the order of 18 – 36 more cases of GBS among the vaccinated than normal.

            So a couple dozen cases of GBS.

          • kfunk937

            And how many cases result from the actual infection (flu)? Give you a hint, it’s more than the vaccine.Please feel free to present high-quality, peer-reviewed studies to the contrary.Basically, there’s more risk of bad stuff from actual diseases (that we can prevent) than there is from any infinitesimal risk from vaccination.

          • the wingless one

            The NICU nurses at the hospital where my son was born were amazing, but there was one nurse that had to wear a mask at all times, she said it was because she was not vaccinated. I was in too much of a fog at the time to ask but I assume it had to be because she couldn’t get vaxxed right (allergies maybe?)? Would a NICU really allow a nurse who just didn’t want to be vaxxed to continue working with medically compromised newborns?

        • Liz Leyden

          I’ve been an RN for 7 years, and my new employer is the first one to actually provide free flu vaccine for employees. The 2 vaccine clinics I worked for provided discounted vaccines, but not free ones. Assisted Living charged employees for flu shots. The Home Health company encouraged employee flu shots, but did not provide them. Nursing Home Hell might have, but I didn’t stick around long enough to find out.

          • Katia

            That’s the way it used to be. Now, with ACA compliant insurance, immunizations are covered with no co-pay or deductible, no matter what type of “High D” insurance you have. Too many people assume their insurance doesn’t pay when it does.

          • kfunk937

            Every hospital I’ve ever worked in has provided flu vaccines for free to all employees. Mine was a goldstar (requiring it) and would place those who refused into non-patient-contact positions, and the whole face-mask thing. In my state, nurses don’t seem to have a thing with antivax. I still don’t “get” the antivax nurse thing.

  • demodocus

    Blindsided, she says. She’s blind, all right. Just because antibiotics have been overprescribed doesn’t mean they should never be prescribed, and vaccines’ risks are no where near what certain sections of the internet make them out to be.

  • Karen in SC

    That woman is vile and disgusting and so is anyone that believes that their child should suffer from pertussis.

    • Chi

      All in the name of building so-called ‘natural’ immunity.