Zika virus tragedy offers a history lesson for anti-vaxxers

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Brazil is experiencing a massive increase in a rare, devastating birth defect.

The journal Science notes:

Brazil is facing a disturbing spike in a severe birth defect called microcephaly. Babies are born with heads that are far too small, a sign that the brain failed to fully develop. Doctors there have reported nearly 3000 cases since July 2015—more than 20 times the usual rate. Scientists are scrambling to understand what is going on. The leading theory so far is that the condition is caused by a little known mosquito-borne virus called Zika that surfaced in Brazil in March and is quickly spreading through Latin America…

What is microcephaly? The CDC updated its page on microcephaly only last week:

The developing Zika crisis gives us a window into what the crises of smallpox, diphtheria, polio, rubella and other diseases were all about.

Babies with microcephaly can have a range of other problems, depending on how severe their microcephaly is. Microcephaly has been linked with the following problems:

Seizures
Developmental delay, such as problems with speech or other developmental milestones (like sitting, standing, and walking)
Intellectual disability (decreased ability to learn and function in daily life)
Problems with movement and balance
Feeding problems, such as difficulty swallowing
Hearing loss
Vision problems

Zika virus is a flavivirus related to the viruses that cause yellow fever and dengue. It was identified 70 years ago in the Zika jungle of Uganda, and is spread by mosquitos. Until recently, it caused few outbreaks among humans. It hasn’t been definitively established as the cause of the epidemic of microcephaly in Brazil, but there is considerable evidence pointing in that direction; the working hypothesis is that infection of pregnant women in the first trimester can lead to microcephaly. At the moment there is no treatment for it and no vaccine.

It is devastating, it is spreading, and it is cause for alarm for pregnant women and anyone who cares about and for them … and it offers a history lesson for anti-vaxxers.

The anti-vax movement rests on several fundamental premises:

Vaccine preventable illnesses were prevalent because of poor sanitation.
They weren’t that bad.
Natural immunity to disease is preferable to vaccine induced immunity.
Vaccines cause more health problems than they prevent.
Vaccines exist just to enrich pharmaceutical companies.

The developing Zika crisis gives us a window into what the crises of smallpox, diphtheria, polio, rubella and other diseases were all about: devastating diseases, easily transmissible, with no effective treatment and no way to prevent them.

Are you afraid of Zika virus as it heads to the US? That’s how parents felt about smallpox, diphtheria, polio and other diseases a century ago. They could strike any child, at any time, and permanently maim or kill the child. Those diseases were bad, very bad, just like Zika induced microcephaly.

Do you think sanitation is going to protect you from Zika virus? You shouldn’t unless you think sanitation is going to protect you from mosquito bites. Parents in the early 1900’s knew that sanitation was not going to protect their children from smallpox, diphtheria or polio, either.

Do you think we should just let everyone get infected because natural immunity is better than anything a vaccine could produce? Are you willing to risk the health of your unborn babies rather than try to create a vaccine to protect them? Parents in the early 1900’s weren’t willing to gamble, either.

If a safe vaccine could be developed, would you refuse it and take your chances with Zika virus? Probably not, right?

Do you think that Zika virus induced microcephaly is a minor problem being hyped solely for the benefits of the pharmaceutical companies that will ultimately produce a vaccine? No? Then perhaps you can understand why a century ago parents didn’t feel that way about smallpox, diphtheria or polio.

We are watching a viral scourge unfold in real time. I have no doubt that we will eventually develop a vaccine for Zika. We’ve done it many times before; there’s no reason we can’t do it again. And I have no doubt that if vaccination for Zika virus becomes routine in order to protect the health of future generations, there will eventually be anti-vaxxers wailing that the vaccine is unnecessary, that the disease is caused by poor sanitation, that “natural” immunity is better than vaccine induced immunity and that microcephaly isn’t really that bad at all.

In the meantime anti-vaxxers might want to consider that their fundamental premises, which don’t apply to Zika virus, don’t apply to other vaccine preventable diseases, either.

  • rattrap22

    Zika has been around for 70 years in 1947 it was patented by The Rockefeller Foundation.Two recent events should have drawn attention to the “humanity loving elites” a flu pandemic that started in South America not Europe and an African Zika virus with modified structure …which even though studied intensely the WHO couldn’t tell us the systems and properties right away.We have all heard the speeches where Bill Gates tells us we will be forced medicated by his loving genetic material carrying mosquitos.Viruses usually dont travel well across the equator but the Zika sure did break out fast…hhhmmmmmm

  • Nick Sanders

    It’s interesting to watch to conspiracy theorists with incompatible delusions argue about which of them is awake and which is the sheep. Does anyone else want popcorn?

  • me

    it also shows that a travel ban could have helped

    The Obama administration is more worried about giving the mosquitoes jobs and hugs

    • MaineJen

      A travel ban to the country that is about to host the Olympics? Yeah, that would have worked out great.

      • me

        yes it would have stopped the spread into the USA

        I will be boycotting the Olympics this year

        I will not be watching a single second

        • MaineJen

          How *do* you enforce a travel ban on mosquitos? Demand to see their tiny passports?

          • me

            lolol have nothing but you have to say something

          • Roadstergal

            Mosquitos suck.

          • guest

            Build a giant mosquito net and make them pay for it!

      • guest

        You are aware that a travel ban would mean no imports/exports, yes? Have you looked at how our food supply would be affected by that? Medical supplies to other countries? How many people would be out of a job if the US instituted a complete travel ban?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      So you want a travel ban to the US then? Zika mosquitoes have appeared in Florida. Due to global warming, not human travel.

      • me

        From what i have read the ppl have brought it here
        Then a local mosquitoes bites them and spreads it

        It would not be here if ppl did not bring it here

        • momofone

          I would love to see what you have read. Would you mind sharing your sources?

    • TonesOfLife

      So Zika has been around for 70 years and only recently linked to microcephaly and other birth defects?

      http://www.who.int/emergencies
      http://www.foxnews.com/health/

      While larvicide (insect fetus growth inhibitor) has only been tested in Brazil for the last 2 years:

      http://www.techtimes.com/artic

      I’m guessing growth defects are caused by the ladder.

      Wake up! It is a scam for 1.1 billion tax payer dollars..They will
      continue to spray Miami and other citizens with poison in the fight to
      control mosquitoes and scare us until they get their money. And then, it will all disappear. Except the affects of the poison.

      • me

        first you should ask

        How did it get to the USA?
        Someone went to another country and brought it back. In the past they banned travel to countries with infectious diseases which protected the people from patient number 0

        However in today’s PC world protecting the people is dead last in priorities.
        Being a selfish prick is how most people in the USA are today.

        • TonesOfLife

          It doesn’t matter. It could have always been here and they never had an reason to use it to scare us.

          As stated clearly by many. In general it has no symptoms.

          George Orwell, Kennedy and many since have tried to warn us of the power of our modern societies advances in the wrong hands.

          Watch Kennedy’s speeches before he died (1961 – 1963). There is a sinister force above us. Secret societies. Its not a joke.

          Wake up

        • Azuran

          Not implementing a travel ban is not a PC things. In today’s world, stopping all form of traffic to an entire country or a part of the world is not something easily done and can have very important economic consequences.
          As it turns out, there has not been any kind of Ebola epidemic in the USA, only a few, quickly controlled isolated cases. So clearly a travel ban was not necessary.

          • me

            It is 100 Percent PC

            someone somewhere would cry foul and the liberals would jump on-board until they got it then they would blame everyone else

          • Azuran

            so tell me, should the entire world have just stopped all travelling in or out of south america when the zika epidemic started? You do realize this would probably cause the worst economic recession even, right?
            It’s not PC. Ebola was never a real danger for the USA or any other first world country. There was no need for a travel ban.

          • me

            tell me doctor putz

            Oh wait you are not a doctor
            I am not a doctor but my dad and many of his friends, my friends are.
            They were scared to death and if they had to take a patient with ebola they would have walked away.

            Ebola is a real danger but thank god it was stopped before it got far

            Zika got to South America from Africa
            It came from south America from south America

            I am sure you have a burger to flip until they replace you with a machine

        • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

          Mosquitoes get into the US via a variety of methods, for instance the Asian tiger mosquito is thought to have arrived in the US in 1985 in a shipment of tires. That mosquito is one of the ones that transmit West Nile virus. Unless you are going to close off international trade, the arrival of invasive species is impossible to completely prevent.

          Yes overuse of pesticides can be bad, on the other hand we no longer have hundreds or thousands of people in the States dying of malaria every year.

          According to the WHO in 2015 there were 214 million cases of malaria worldwide, and over 400,000 deaths. The mosquito eradication efforts of the late 40s and early 50s did help eliminate the main malaria vector, at least for a while. (yes I realize there are big downsides, I am old enough to remember the trucks that would fill our neighborhood with a fog of pesticide, good times)

          As to travel to countries with infectious diseases, it would help if people traveling (from the U.S. for instance) would be up to date on all their recommended vaccines. One of the worst recent measles outbreaks was amongst the Amish in Ohio, a young man went to the Philippines to do mission work , caught the measles, did not realize it , brought it home and spread it to his unfortunately under vaccinated community. 383 cases.

          • me

            enjoy your ebola or zika

      • Monkey Professor for a Head

        Bloody ladders causing growth defects. Typical example of man messing with nature. If we were meant to reach high up things, God would have made us taller.

        • Charybdis

          What about stepstools?

          • momofone

            They’re just the innocent-seeming precursor to the ladders. Smaller, cuter, no one thinks about what they REALLY are.

        • TonesOfLife

          Whats funny is. Logically it works both ways. I could be making fun of the irrationality to assume a poorly done scientific study is enough evidence to make the link which now allows untested poisons to be sprayed in our communities… You know, just as crazy as it would be to blame a ladder.

          Alternatively, it works as I mean it and as you assumed I did.

          Cheers!

          • Azuran

            Hey, I believe we are all in favour of using less pesticide. The problem is, whatever we do, it’s never to your kind’s liking. We use sterile mosquitoes? OMG GMO GOING TO INJECT US WITH GMO STUFF
            We want to do a vaccine?
            OMG VACCINES TO KILL OFF ALL OF THE POOR PEOPLE

            If you had half a brain, you’d actually see the answer to your question about microcephaly is easy. Zika was indeed around for 70 years. On another continent, where almost everyone was infected at a young age, because the virus was everywhere. So it was unlikely that a pregnant woman would be infected for the first time in her first trimester. It happened, but not at a high enough rate for people to notice the link with birth defect.

            Now in south america, no one has ever been infected, no one is immune, so anyone who is infected is likely to develop zika, and a larger portion of those newly infected people will be pregnant women. The rate of birth defect is the same, but the sharp increase in infected pregnancy woman resulted in a far larger number of birth defect, which made the connection noticeable.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            There’s also similar virus that is pretty much endemic to the U.S. that can cause similar birth defects if caught by a fetus in utero: cytomegalovirus

            http://www.cdc.gov/cmv/overview.html

            Premature birth,
            Liver, lung and spleen problems,
            Small size at birth,
            Small head size, and
            Seizures.

            “Babies born with CMV can have brain, liver, spleen, lung, and growth
            problems. Hearing loss is the most common health problem in babies born
            with congenital CMV infection, which may be detected soon after birth or
            may develop later in childhood.”

        • TonesOfLife

          What’s funny is either word works to my point.
          Cheers!

  • spinneywebber

    A report
    from the Argentine doctors’ organisation, Physicians in the
    Crop-Sprayed Towns,[1] challenges the theory that the Zika virus
    epidemic in Brazil is the cause of the increase in the birth defect
    microcephaly among newborns.
    The Physicians commented: “Malformations detected in thousands of
    children from pregnant women living in areas where the Brazilian state
    added Pyriproxyfen to drinking water are not a coincidence, even though
    the Ministry of Health places a direct blame on the Zika virus for this
    damage.”

    Pyriproxyfen is a relatively new introduction to the Brazilian
    environment; the microcephaly increase is a relatively new phenomenon.
    So the larvicide seems a plausible causative factor in microcephaly –
    far more so than GM mosquitoes, which some have blamed for the Zika
    epidemic and thus for the birth defects. There is no sound evidence to
    support the notion promoted by some sources that GM mosquitoes can cause
    Zika, which in turn can cause microcephaly. In fact, out of 404
    confirmed microcephaly cases in Brazil, only 17 (4.2%) tested positive for the Zika virus.

  • spinneywebber

    There is no epidemic in Brazil: only 404 cases of microcephaly, and only 17 of them had Zika. In the US there are 25,000 cases of microcephaly per year. It has many causes…
    the truth about the hype that is the Zika virus panic:
    http://www.sott.net/article/311701-Jon-Rappoport-on-The-Corbett-Report-The-truth-about-the-Zika-Virus

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    I have to close the comments because they are crashing the site. Sorry for the inconvenience.

    • Nick Sanders

      You seem to have left them open, because spinney is still here.

  • Tony

    1. Mosquitoes are not just in Brazil, but microcephaly is only in Brazil.
    2. Microcephaly is not associated with Zika for 50 years.
    3. Brazil has NEW vaccination (Tdap) program for pregnant mothers.
    4. Only 2 Brazilian doctors suggested a link (Zika-Micro)

    Not sure I want that vaccine given to my pregnant wife.

  • GoldFever

    You’re right about (2) things:

    1. “It hasn’t been definitively established as the cause of the epidemic of microcephaly in Brazil” If fact, only (6) cases of microcepahly in Brazil can be aassociated with Zika. Currently the US has 25,0000 new cases of microcephaly per year.

    2. We “anti-vaxxers” , or “free thinkers” depending on your mental state, will definitively be refusing unwarranted, untested, and unconstitutional vaccines. Get used to it, it’s not up for discussion. #MyBodyMyChoice

    • Azuran

      So long as you don’t go around crying when you or your children are put in quarantine during an outbreak or are refused access to certain places and services because your choice is putting other vulnerable people at risk, do whatever you want.

      • GoldFever

        You don’t understand. Many of us don’t accept that refusing vaccines puts others at risk. Nor do we accept that all vaccines are safe and effective. That’s why we don’t put what we consider toxins into our bloodstreams. Nor will we accept or allow forcible quarantines. So feel free to believe whatever the government or the pharmaceutical companies tell you, just stay off my doorstep.

        • Roadstergal

          “That’s why we don’t put what we consider toxins into our bloodstreams”

          Well, you’ll be happy to know that no vaccines are injected into your blood streams.

          And that vaccination prevents actual toxins from getting into your bloodstream.

          • GoldFever

            Thank God you’re not my doctor….do your muscles not contain blood vessels?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Your misunderstanding of the situation is no reason to allow you to endanger others.

          • GoldFever

            Back at ya.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Unfortunately that doesn’t work for you because I am educated in this field

          • GoldFever

            I quiver and yield

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No need to quiver. Hopefully you will do real investigation and learn the error of your ideas.

          • GoldFever

            Sage advice for us all.

        • Azuran

          Some things are just not up to personal beliefs. Facts are facts and are not up for you to decide. The truth is that you are putting people in danger, your beliefs are wrong.
          For example, following your logic, I could decide that I don’t believe that speeding in a car is dangerous, nor that seatbelt saves lives. And therefore I should be allowed to drive at whatever speed I want, wherever I want. Without having me or my children have seatbelt. And don’t the police dare give me tickets for this. Nor will I accept them or allow them to pull me over for this. Because it is MY belief. Feel free to believe whatever the government is telling you about safe driving.

          • GoldFever

            We both believe speeding is dangerous, we don’t both believe vaccines are safe. Some things are up to personal beliefs, like what I am willing to put in my body. The difference between you and I is that you are trying to tell me what I should do with my body, I have a problem with that.

          • Azuran

            Whether or not god is real is up to personal belief.
            How you raise your kids is up to personal belief.
            Your decision to get an abortion is up to personal belief.
            Your decision to get a vaccine or not is up to personal belief as well.
            But the efficacy and safety of vaccine is not up to your personal belief.
            Vaccine are safe and effective, that is a fact and it has been proven multiple time by science. Your ‘belief’ of their safety is irrelevant, you are simply wrong on that matter.
            You are still free to not get it. But you are taking a risk and putting your life and others life in danger by making that choice. That is a fact, and your ‘belief’ on that matter is worthless. Therefore, you have to face the consequences that come with your choices, such as quarantine and such.

          • GoldFever

            “Whether or not god is real is up to personal belief.” Not to God it is not. Do you really, honestly believe that?

          • Azuran

            Until you can show me any scientific proof that he does or does not exist, yes, belief in god is a personal belief.
            But you are just trying to avoid the real point of this conversation: That vaccine have been scientifically proven to be safe and effective. And that your ‘personal belief’ on the matter does not change de truth.

          • GoldFever

            No, you were displaying relativism….I just believe truth is absolute. Your belief in the safety and effectiveness of all vaccines does not make them so. And I don’t concur that all vaccines have been “proven”. In fact, my studies have shown me that many of them are unsafe, ineffective, and sometimes toxic.

          • Azuran

            Care to share those studies?

          • GoldFever

            Not really, any more than I care to know what you have read. Let’s face it, the information is out there and easily vetted. There’s no “one source” for this. The truth is there for all with the eyes to see it. I think more folks are lead by their political and spiritual world views anyway. But you have to admit….only one of us can be right about this, truth is absolute.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wait, wait, what? You have a picture of the cover of Atlas shrugged yet you believe in God? Pick one dude.

          • GoldFever

            You’re right, she was an atheist…..still wrote a great book, but you could sense her frustration with putting mankind on the throne.

          • Nick Sanders
          • GoldFever

            That’s ridiculous, we can admire Rand’s Libertarianism without adopting her whole world view. I worship Christ, not Rand.

          • Nick Sanders

            Jesus and libertarianism are dramatically at odds.
            http://biblehub.com/luke/6-30.htm

        • Nick Sanders

          Look, if you don’t want vaccines, there’s a very simple solution: imitate your idiot hero Galt and go found your own little society away from the rest of us.

          And then enjoy your epidemics, and don’t expect any help.

    • 25,000 cases of microcephaly a year represents 1-2 cases per 10,000 births. This figure is pretty consistent with the rate in the UK.

      The rate in Brazil has just shot up to 20 cases per 10,000 births.

      Numbers are useless without relevant context.

      • GoldFever

        Here’s some relevant context:

        1. Brazil uses more pesticides than any other county in the world, some of them banned in 22 other countries.
        2. In late 2014, the Brazilian Ministry of Health announced the introduction of the Tdap vaccine for all pregnant woman in Brazil. This was prior to US licensing, and prior to any tests for safety and effectiveness for pregnant woman.
        3. Genetically engineered mosquitoes were released in 2012 in Brazil to combat dengue fever…courtesy of Oxitec via generous grant money supplied by Bill Gates. The Zika virus outbreak occurred soon after….not an automatic correlation, but worthy of investigation with all the unknown variable surrounding GM.

        • 1. If pesticides are found to be relevant, that would indeed be terrible and alarming news. I’ll wait for some evidence of a link to this outbreak.

          2. The exact same vaccine has been used in the UK since July 2014, No microcephaly spike. The vaccine has been used throughout Brazil, the spike is limited to only one small area.

          3. The mosquitoes were released some way away from the main area being affected by microcephaly.

          Here’s some context for you to consider:

          Your mention of Bill Gates as if this is somehow relevant to anything marks you out as someone with only the slimmest grip on reality.

          • GoldFever

            My mention of Bill Gates if very relevant if you dare to grasp the reality of his eugenics pedigree. And Juazeiro is pretty damned close to Penambuco if you’re trying to link Zika to microcephaly.

          • “Eugenics pedigree” = zero grasp on reality

          • GoldFever

            “”Eugenics pedigree” = zero grasp on reality” = reflex cognitive dissonance

          • Using long words that you saw written somewhere else but don’t really understand does not make you appear more intelligent

          • Nick Sanders
          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Stolen

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          The mosquitos that were released are al males. The release close to the outbreak was in 2011. The release in 2015 was far from the area. The TdaP vaccine in the same one used in many countries and has never caused a spike in microcephaly cases. Pesticides should be looked at if they are a type not used safely in other areas that are not effected by the outbreak.

        • Charybdis

          The TDaP vaccine has been given to pregnant women in their third trimester for years. Years and years, and in numerous countries. There have not been any other spikes of microcephaly attributed to the vaccine. So, nice try.

          The GMO mosquitoes are males and they produce non-viable offspring. Since they are males, they do not bite people and cannot be a disease vector. Female mosquitoes, who DO bite people mate once. Mating with the GMO male produces non-viable offspring, thus reducing the mosquito population without having to resort to pesticides, repellents, etc. Strike two.

          Zika is new to the Americas, so the people don’t have any immunity/resistance built up from years of exposure. So, yes, a new virus is going to run rampant through a vulnerable population (Remember last year when Ebola hit West Africa?) who does not have experience with the infection protocols.

          Zika is a flavivirus, related to Yellow Fever, Dengue Fever and West Nile Virus. These diseases can and do cause microcephaly.

          So, in the entire scheme of things, the vaccine has been proven safe and effective in pregnant women – see the millions and millions of women who receive the TDaP in the third trimester of pregnancy and go on to have non-microcephalic babies. The GMO mosquitoes released to help control the population of Zika (and other mosquito-borne illnesses) are male and do not bite, so they cannot be a disease vector. The females mate once and if they mate with a GMO male, the resulting offspring are non-viable and do not reach adulthood to continue the cycle.
          Zika is a new virus to the Americas, and as such, is the newest variable in a picture that was overall fine until the virus showed up. So yes, it is the hypothesized cause of this whole shebang. Could it be something else? Possibly, but the evidence is strong that the Zika virus is at fault.

          Find Green Fish’s post…s/he did a fabulous job of summarizing the important points in a neat and concise manner.

          There will be a quiz later.

        • Nick Sanders
      • Dagfinn Klausen

        Assuming that ultrasound is a normal routine in a pregnancy in UK, USA and most of the Western World – may we assume that a potential mother and father would prefer an abortion, if a birth-defect is expected?

        Knowing that ultrasound and abortion is unavailable to pregnant mothers in Brazil – how would this impact Your statistics?

        Have You thought about this fact?

        • Azuran

          and you think that ‘abortion due to microcephaly’ are not going to be counted towards microcephaly cases?

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Absolutely – if not, it would be fraudulent.

            But, pleas enlighten me. Zika VIrus, microcephaly and abortion have all been around for more than 50-years.

            I gave a potential explaination that, in my mind, makes some sense. Do You have a similar one?

          • Sigh. Mosquito numbers have changed. The climate has changed.

            http://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/10795562/zika-virus-cdc-mosquitoes-birth-defects

            Climate change and globalization may help diseases like Zika spread
            The simplest explanations seem to escape you so you make up ever more complex reason which don’t make any sense.

          • Charybdis

            But there is a good plan to help reduce the mosquito population, and as a result, reducing ALL mosquito-borne illnesses. The GMO male mosquitoes released to breed with the females and make non-viable offspring. The GMO mosquitoes are male and do not bite people, so they cannot be a disease vector.

            But you don’t like that idea either. WHO recommends using DDT to spray for mosquitoes. How about that idea?

          • Azuran

            I do have some as well. Zika has been around, true, but in africa and Asia. Since the virus was endemic there, most people were infected before they were old enough to be pregnant. So the number if microcephaly cases were lower, because the number of pregnant women getting infected was lower.
            In brazil, it is a totally new disease where no one has immunity, so a huge number of people, including pregnant women, are infected all at once. Causing a huge spike in microcephaly cases that is a lot easier to notice.
            Also, 50 years ago, medicine and technology was far from what it is today. Especially in Africa and Asia. So it’s not surprising that no one would make an association between zika and microcephaly in those country 50 years ago.
            Even today, medical information is hard to obtrain in many parts of the world, were very few people have access to prenatal care or even basic medical care. There are still places in the world were cleft palate is believed to be a sign of demonic possession and people are banned from their village. So of course, getting valid information of microcephaly rates is impossible.

        • It doesn’t affect the statistic of a sudden 20 fold increase in microcephaly at all.

          That was a ridiculous comment

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            So, the outbreak, in Your opinion, is definitely not connected to the Zika Virus. It is neither connected to the Tdap vaccine. And now You indicate that some million GMO developed mosquitos have not been released into the nature?

            What about the colorful pictures of the 200.000 army-personnel, that spray the country side with pesticides? Do You suggest they are Photoshopped? They seem quite real to me.

            So, after a good couple of hours, to and from, we are stuck with no clue of what is going on. This I find strange!

          • When did I say Zika wasn’t connected? Are you making stuff up again?

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            So, You claim that Zika is connected – but Your own statistics claims otherwise?

            May be I have You all wrong – if so bear with me.

          • No they don’t. That’s you making stuff up.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            This is simpler than You are making it. To avoid confusion; Is, in Your opinion, is Zika connected with microcepahly, or is it not?

            Yor claim, suggesting it should be blamed on the climate, I find quite interesting. If You substantiate it, You will find me being quite impressed.

          • Now you’re just being deliberately obtuse and are clearly not reading (or understanding) the informative material being presented to you

            Not worthy of any more time. Your point that the vaccine might somehow be to blame has been thoroughly discredited and at the same time you, personally, have been shown to lack sufficient understanding to have anything of merit to add.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Very few things in life can be so easily put into a binary equation.

            Does congenital rubella syndrome cause birth defects? Yes. But under this type of binary logic if one pregnant woman gets infected with rubella in the first trimester and their child does not display the signs and symptoms of congenital rubella syndrome then that would be congenital rubella syndrome causes birth defects as no. However, we know thatsthat’s that’s not true.

            Does rubella cause birth defects? There is an extremely high possibility but I can’t say yes with 100% certainty. That’d be dishonest and warping the truth.

            Zika may end up being the same way. Does it cause microcephaly? Right now the answer is learning more towards being a good possibility of yes but not with a 100% rate of “success” or certainty.

            Life would be easier if everything fit tidily into simple yes or no equations but the universe likes it’s multiple variables.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Few things in life, are black or white, or yes or now.
            This debate, however, seems to being inflicted with some strange “virus” of exactly this kind.

            About Your claims, that I, personally, find quite reasonable; They seem to just having been countered by WHO, which is of a different opinion than Yours. WHO just deemed Zika Virus, a World Wide threat.

            Myself, I have been of the conviction, that this Zika Virus is just another artificial scare, which is an opinion, that none of this Forums skilled participants, regrettably, have been able to change.

          • Azuran

            They made it a ‘worldwide threat’ in order to get the international community to help with research, funding and such. Not because they fear it’s going to affect the whole planet.
            They did the same thing with Ebola, and there was never any worry about it going worldwide.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Except this kind of dismissal as an artificial scare is exactly why Ebola blew up in West Africa. People didn’t respond to it like the proper threat if is and allowed it to get a foothold while the health response was it wouldn’t be that big of a deal, Ebola had been around in Centrap Africa for the last forty years and hadnt spread, the risks have been exaggerated, we’ll deal with it if it becomes a problem.

            Well it did become a problem. A big one. And seemed to not get the proper response it deserved until it became a risk to more well off white people. I’d rather not see a similar scenario with Zika when complacency to the risks and sluggish response is the biggest enemy in a disease outbreak.

            The possibility between a link of vaccines and the microcephaly cases appears to be one of the first risk factors investigated. So if it were not the culprit after testing it would be logical to move on to another suspect. Vaccines had not shown the connection to microcephaly that could explain the dramatic increase. To continue to waste resources while the true culprit remains at large and uncontained would be ridiculously irresponsible.

          • Nick Sanders

            What the fuck are you on about?

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      No, I cannot get over the fact that you are endangering children because you were misinformed. You don’t have to listen to reason but that doesn’t mean we will stop speaking it

      • GoldFever

        I’m not asking you to stop speaking anything, but what you call reason…I call foolishness. Many of us see vaccines as potentially endangering children, you don’t have to listen to reason either, but that doesn’t mean we will stop speaking it.

        • A reasonable person has evidence on their side. You don’t have the evidence to support you. Therefore, you are the one without reason.

          Just parroting back “no you’re not speaking reason” is incoherent rambling unless you can explain why the other person is not being reasonable.

          • GoldFever

            Just holding a mirror, if that bothers you perhaps try a different hair style.

          • You missed the point: what I complained about was not my reflection, but you thinking you are in a position to hold up a mirror at all.

            Hope the imagery isn’t too confusing for you.

          • GoldFever

            I’m not confused, you’re scared of your reflection.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I am sorry you cannot see reason

    • Nick Sanders

      Point one: So, you don’t realizes diseases are tracked as cases per 10,000 people, and not as raw numbers? If the rate goes up, which it has 20 times over in Brazil, that’s what causes concern.

      Point two: You’re not free thinkers. If you were actually thinking, you wouldn’t reject all evidence.

  • Charybdis

    I heard on the radio this morning that WHO is recommending using DDT to deal with the mosquitoes. I wonder how the Natcheral, WHO-revering woo crowd is dealing with that little tidbit of information.

  • demodocus

    On the positive side, I am now able to keep DTap and TDaP straight

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Wow. There really do seem to be a wide variety of conspiracies going on here. First we have the old classic, vaccines. It’s the DTP. Or, no, it’s the DTaP. No, it’s specifically the tetanus, diptheria, and pertussis vaccine being given in Brazil during pregnancy. (Sorry, I have completely lost the plot on which of the variants it actually is.) Or maybe it’s the GMO mosquitoes. Or maybe it’s the Rockefellers trying to make money off of the word “zika”. Or at least on people buying the virus. Hard to say exactly what Dag, below, means.

    In short, it’s everyone and everything except the new flavivirus which is infecting the Americas for the first time. Because viruses are completely harmless and introducing a virus into a new population has never done that population any harm. America is a case study for how harmless new diseases are. Nature is good. Especially if you’re a naturopath who makes their money off of “natural” “treatments”.

    • Dagfinn Klausen

      Why not treat Yourself with a couple of Prosac´s, and give it another try? It´s really not that complicated.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        See what I mean? Now we’ve got SSRIs involved. (Actually, didn’t someone down thread bring SSRIs up as another suspect?) Really flailing about for any other suspect, as long as it’s “unnatural”. Try cell phones next. They’re an evergreen, like vaccines.

        Also, “you” and variants thereof are not capitalized in English. I take it it is in your first language?

        • Dagfinn Klausen

          Like I said, it is not very complicated.
          “It may not be Zika Virus that gives Brazilian Children their birth defect”.
          Please try harder to search for the facts, instead of using energy on diversions…

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Fine. It may not be the Zika virus. What’s your alternative hypothesis and what is the evidence for that hypothesis? What are the consequences if you are wrong and we ignore Zika?

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Why ignore Zika?
            There is a test for Zika Virus developed in Germany. By making this test mandatory for all pregnant Brazilian women, we may be able to prove any correlation with microcephaly.
            If this suggestion is wrong, I will be thankful for You telling me.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            How reliable is the test? What are its false positive and false negative rates? Does it test for the virus or antibody? Does it cross react with dengue or other viruses? What happens when someone was infected with the virus but has cleared it (i.e. can you pick up past infection)?

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            These all seems like very good questions. If You follow this link, You may get some, but probably not all, the right answers.
            https://www.rt.com/news/330737-zika-virus-test-germany/

            As the correlation between Tdap and microcephaly seems to be close to 100%, while preliminary results of similar correlation with Zika virus seems to be quite low – do You think WHO should recommend postponing, or use another vaccine, until it can be deemed safe?

          • DaisyGrrl

            The Tdap vaccine is routinely given to pregnant women in other countries without ill effect. There’s already been several discussions in this comment thread about why the Tdap vaccine is almost certainly not the source of the microcephaly cluster seen in Brazil.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Sorry, I have not registered that.
            But I have registered that the mandatory Tdap vaccine in Brazil is new and different from the one used in other countries.
            Your claim does not seem to make any sense to me. Pls help!

          • DaisyGrrl

            The Tdap in Brazil is manufactured in Brazil under license from GSK by a non-profit manufacturer that was set up by the government to facilitate access to quality vaccines. The vaccine used in Brazil goes by the trade name Boostrix and is for all intents and purposes identical to the vaccines produced elsewhere for GSK. Many women around the world receive Boostrix in their third trimester and there has been no link between the vaccine and birth defects.

            For far better explanations, Green Fish and Mariana are commenters in this thread who have fully explained the source of the vaccines and why it is extremely unlikely that the introduction of the vaccine is the source of the birth defects.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Thank You for taking this debate to a serious level. Based on Your feedback, I would like to suggest a theory. If the Tdap Vaccine never was a problem, and the Zika virus never caused a problem – what about the combination?

            By the way, do You have a link to any statistical information and facts about this specific vaccine? Inlet and registered side-effects?

          • Having been caught out on all the numerous errors of fact you’ve been making, you’ve now resorted to just making things up that can’t be immediately disproved.

            Just to be clear about correcting one of your previous errors: Boostrix has been given routinely in the UK to pregnant women since July 2014.

            http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/whooping-cough-vaccination-pregnant.aspx

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Thank You for joining the discussion. Appreciate that.

            But sticking to the facts. There are two different vaccines being distributed in Brazil, that are from two different vendors, and with different content.

            Now You introduce a third one. Is it for the purpose of confusion? If not, please subject to me the content of the UK version, so that it may be compared to the two others, and potentially be proved or disproved.

            Let me also remind You, that we are trying to have a serious debate going here. Making up allegations may be acceptable – if You are capable of backing them up with facts.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So “OK, maybe it’s Zika but damn it, it STILL has to vaccines!!!!!!”

            That reminds me of the vaccines and autism nonsense. I’ve pointed out in the past that, at least in the beginning, the temporal association of MMR and the onset of autism symptoms warranted an investigation to see if there was a link. And said investigation was carried out, and there was found to be none. Great. Question asked and answered, right?

            Nope, not for anti-vaxxers. Because it always has to be the vaccine, they switched. Well, it’s DTaP. Or Hep B. Or chicken pox. Despite the fact that there is not the nary of a hint that any of these have any association with autism, and, in fact, completely contradict the temporal association that was the basis for blaming MMR, it must be a vaccine, it doesn’t matter whether they contradict themselves (as has happened in this thread).

            Of course, there is still the little problem of how a 3rd trimester vaccine is going to cause an effect that happens in the 2nd trimester, but you know, when it HAS to be the vaccines, such things are never a problem.

          • Excellent point – I’d forgotten the vaccine was delivered relatively late in pregnancy!

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Hey,

            I just got a great idea.
            What about not making the Tdap vaccine mandatory? The pregnant mothers of Brazil could, on an individual basis, decide whether they volunteer for a project, where they accepted to receive, either the Tdap Vaccine or a Placebo?
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_trial

            Both groups accept to be tested for Zika, scientifically timed, during the Project.

            The cost, in my opinion, should be covered by the producing companies of the Tdap Vaccines, Sanofi Pasteur of France and GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) of the United Kingdom, collectively with Rockefeller Foundation, who, supposedly, owns the rights to the Zika Virus.

            If not, money is already being poured into “fighting Zika” from all WHO loyal Governments of the World!

          • Nick Sanders
          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So, according to the link, a DNA based test. Which means that it will only show something if there is active viremia. If a woman is infected in the first trimester and clears the virus, it will be negative, no matter whether the virus has damaged the fetus or not. If she is infected in, say, week 4 and tested in week 8, it will also most likely be negative, leading to a false reassurance. An antibody test would be much better for demonstrating a past infection, but the currently available test cross reacts with dengue. Not to mention the continued lack of any statement about false positive/negative rate.

            What is the hazard ratio for receiving versus not receiving the Tdap and having a microcephalic baby? Nearly 100% of women who had microcephalic babies also drank water and breathed oxygen. Perhaps water is the culprit.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Thank You. So no testing, and continue Tdap vaccination is, in Your opinion, the right thing to do.
            And if You are wrong – what will be the consequences?

            Do You have a solution, that You think would be a good one, I would very much like to hear it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Again, if there is any evidence that the Tdap is the culprit then it is reasonable to consider stopping vaccination. That’s why I asked about the hazard ratio of microcephaly. If there were a HR of, say, 2.5 with a 95% CI of 1.5-3.5 then it would certainly be reasonable to stop vaccination or use another formulation.

            Stopping vaccination is not benign either. Tetanus is a near guarantee of death and not a pretty death at that. Pertussis can be deadly and is certainly nearly always uncomfortable in infants. Diphtheria used to kill a lot of kids. Pregnancy is immunosuppressive and infectious diseases in pregnancy can be dangerous during pregnancy even if the same conditions are mild in a non pregnant adult. It makes sense to ensure that pregnant women are protected.

            Finally, there is the infamous breast milk protection. Breast milk can’t provide passive antibody protection if the mother does not have antibodies against the condition. Again, vaccination to stimulate the immune response and encourage vigorous antibody production makes sense. (Not that breast feeding is a great source of antibodies, but it does provide some.)

            Anyway, all that must be balanced against whatever risk of side effects there might be. What is the evidence that the Tdap is involved in microcephaly? It has been given in multiple other countries without any increase in microcephaly. What mechanism of action could produce microcephaly? What is the epidemiologic evidence that such an association even exists?

          • Roadstergal

            “Breast milk can’t provide passive antibody protection if the mother does not have antibodies against the condition. ”

            It can’t provide passive antibody protection to VPDs, period. These protective IgGs have to be passed through the placenta – in late pregnancy.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s an RNA test, since Zika is an RNA virus. RNA falls apart if you look at it sideways. The quality of a sample will have a substantial effect on your ability to detect the virus.

            And as mentioned above, it’s RUO. So it’s had no evaluation of sensitivity, specificity, stability, LLoQ, LOD, etc.

          • Roadstergal

            That’s an RUO assay.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Strange, It seems different from the mandatory one, used in Brazil. It looks like this.

            Why another shot every pregnancy? Do You have an answer?

          • Roadstergal

            What I provided was a pic of the Zika test that you said should be made mandatory, which is a terrible idea given the type of assay. You don’t seem to know anything about them.

            Protecting baby and mom from tetanus, pertussis, and diphtheria, to answer your question. A booster pumps up specific antibody production.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            Sorry, having to do some “Ave Marias”…

          • Nick Sanders

            Why another shot every pregnancy? Do You have an answer?

            Because tetanus kills babies.

          • Nick Sanders

            As the correlation between Tdap and microcephaly seems to be close to 100%

            So is the correlation between having a pulse and microcephaly, or eating Brazilian cuisine and microcephaly…

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It may not be Zika virus, but it is not male mosquitos that were released in 2011 close to the area or male mosquitos released in 2015 far from the area. It is also not a vaccine that has been used safely in pregnant women in many countries for many years and never caused a spike in microecephaly cases.

          • Roadstergal

            They can’t tell the difference between a reasonable, but unproven hypothesis (Zika) and whatever WAG strikes their fancy.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But it MUST be vaccines.

          • Dagfinn Klausen

            I fully agree. Your claim seems logically probable, and all facts considered, reasonable.

        • Roadstergal

          “Try cell phones next”

          WiFi, too. You could probably find a correlation between WiFi access in Brazil and microcephaly.

      • LibrarianSarah

        Surprise, surprise another antivaxxer outs themself as an ablest bigot. Yup you are so much better than those icky crazy people who need to take medication; you eat organic food.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Also note that despite the temptation to think and/or say otherwise, the anti-vaxxers who have posted do not appear to be stupid or uneducated people. There have been, for example, few spelling or grammatical errors in the various posts, apart from Angela’s abuse of periods, which appears to be more a style than a lack of knowledge about how to use the language. Dagfinn has a few issues in terms of grammar and spelling, but he also doesn’t appear to be a native speaker so I’m inclined to give him credit for knowing English and not disparage him for the occasional usage error.

      I’d say that it all suggests a problem in our science education, but, well, who is “our”? I’m fairly certain Dagfinn is European, Angela is claiming Australian, the osteopath looks to be US-American. It looks like an international problem.

      Again, following the money is useful. Who has a vested interest in making people believe that “allopathic medicine” is dangerous? Perhaps, those who practice other forms of “medicine”? Those who have enough money to bribe the US Congress (among other national legislatures) into passing laws that allow their “medications” to be marketed without being proven safe and effective, perhaps? This whole “you’re a big pharma shill” thing just feels an awful lot like projection at times.

  • Dagfinn Klausen

    There is now a test for Zika Virus available from Germany. As Tdap vaccine is mandatory for pregnant Women in Brazil, so should this test be, so that any correlation between Zika and microcephaly can be properly documented. If this is not recommended by WHO, we can be quite sure that the vaccine is the suspected cause.

    https://www.rt.com/news/330737-zika-virus-test-germany/

    By the way, is everybody aware that Zika Virus is registered Trademark of Rockefeller Foundation, and is available for sale on Internet?

    https://www.lgcstandards-atcc.org/Products/All/VR-84.aspx?slp=1#history

    What I, personally, expect, is that WHO will recommend mandatory test for all travellers (royalty to Rockefellers), until there is a vaccine for Zika Virus (more royalty), and last but not least, there will be political pressure to allow abortion in Brazil, which today is illegal (population reduction/control). WHO may also suggest Zika is sexually transferrable and ask that people abstain form having sex (population reduction/control). The best of all, is that Brazil will experience lost income from tourism. As Brazil is part of BRICS, this will be an extra, “well deserved”, treat for TPTB…

    • DaisyGrrl

      Claims that the Tdap vaccine is to blame have been thoroughly discussed and dismissed elsewhere in the comments.

      The reason the Rockefeller Foundation is listed as the depositor of the Zika virus samples available for sale is because the virus was first isolated at the Yellow Fever Research Institute, an institute run by the Rockefeller Foundation. That doesn’t mean that they get royalties from every sample of the virus sold (someone with more knowledge of how biological samples work will have to chime in on how this all works financially). While it’s possible they might, they’re definitely playing a long game if that’s the case. The virus was discovered 70 years ago, so anyone involved in the discovery won’t be alive to profit.

      The test you linked to was developed by a company called Genekam, who will be the company that earns money from the sale of the test (not the Rockefeller Foundation). Finally, the company that develops a vaccine will be the one to profit from the sale of the vaccines (very unlikely that the Rockefeller Foundation will develop the vaccine).

      The test for Zika will be very helpful in determining whether there truly is a causal link between the virus and the birth defects. Scientists are still months away from confirming that there is a causative relationship, although there are many reasons to be looking very closely at Zika as a possible cause. Should the link be established, there is no guarantee that anyone will develop a successful vaccine.

      As for the population control theories…wow. The best way to reduce the birthrate seems to be through a combination of higher maternal education levels (and thus earning potential), contraceptive availability, and reducing infant and child mortality (if the kids will likely all live, no need for spare kids to support you in old age). Reducing child and infant mortality are primarily achieved through vaccination, sanitation, and proper nutrition. If population control is the end game, way better to use the methods I describe rather than wait for a virus to appear in a new area and hope you can pin some birth defects on it.

      • Dagfinn Klausen

        I am not sure You are quite right about the Trademark part. I would assume Rockefeller Foundation will collect royalty on a product or product name that they have the rights to.

        And about the rest. It is no secret that there are powerful interests within the “DrugIndustrialComplex” that have an ambition to reduce population of the World. They are actually quite open on this issue.

        If You suggest I am wrong, I recommend a quick research on the issue.

  • spinneywebber

    Brazil Revises Birth Defect Count in Zika Investigation
    by Associated Press
    “New figures released Wednesday by Brazil’s Health Ministry as part of a probe into the Zika virus have found fewer confirmed cases of a rare brain defect than first feared…
    Six of the 270 confirmed microcephaly cases were found to have the virus.”

    Wow, only 6 cases of microcephaly had Zika.
    Let’s everybody panic and rush into judgement, cause we all know priority #1 is to SPREAD FEAR.

    • Who?

      Oh Slimy, you’re back, spreading fear, and stupidity.

      The usual I see-blah lies, blah drama, blah fairy tales. Blah, blah, blah.

      It’s ‘toe the line’, dummy. Homonyms occasionally trick even the most accomplished writers, so someone like you must make that mistake all the time.

      You and Avinalaff-the discredited osteopath (tautology, I know, but humour me) with the vulgar turn of phrase-turn out to have a lot in common. Both obsessed with others’ nether regions.

      Delightful, and a wonderful advertisement for the antivax brand.

      • spinneywebber

        your ego has by far outstripped both your IQ and your usefulness, and your sense of humor has withered into the meagerest of specimens, worthy of pity, almost, if it weren’t for your meanness.
        stick to the issues I pointed out and spare everyone the lame ad hominem attacks.
        Your pathetic way of squirming out of saying anything of substance is getting very dull.

        • Who?

          Oh honey are all your fee-fees hurt?

          Is the mean lady kicking your useless arse and pointing out that you are a sad sleazy old nobody who can’t even write a simple sentence straight?

          You started with the personal remarks, sunshine. If you can’t hack it, don’t play.

          No point tackling what you sweetly call ‘issues’-as your proudly flaunted functional illiteracy indicates, you can’t actually learn, so why would anyone assume you know anything about anything?

          • spinneywebber

            I have wasted enough time on you sister.
            I really feel sorry for anyone who has to put up with you on a daily basis.

            Bye Bye.

          • Who?

            So this is the flounce.

            I’m so proud.

            I’ll tell my fab husband and intelligent, attractive and professionally successful children that a sad sleazy old nobody whose entire thinking is ‘vax is bad’ thinks I’m insufferable.

            We’ll all spend 5 seconds laughing at your pathetic life, and get on with our awesome ones.

            Mind the door on your way out!

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Reference, please. Simply typing something and attributing it to the AP proves nothing. It’s already been amply demonstrated on this thread that anti-vaxxers have no problem with writing deceptive posts and outright lies to make their points.

      • spinneywebber

        uh…any idiot knows if they type in a sentence or two into a search engine the Associated Press article will come up plain as day.

        How’s this, a link straight to NBC news for you:

        http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/brazil-revises-birth-defect-count-zika-investigation-n505486

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Congratulations on being able to type from a secondary source correctly, even if you don’t know how to cite or interpret results.

          A few bits that you left out: Confirming the presence of Zika is described as a difficult process. The virus is confirmed in 6 cases, but it is not ruled out in the others, as you seem to assume. See this article for a more complete discussion of the test, the uncertainties, and the potential for a more reliable test that could settle the question. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/brazil-may-be-close-to-a-more-reliable-test-for-the-zika-virus/2016/01/29/b174f828-c6a1-11e5-b933-31c93021392a_story.html

          • spinneywebber

            as I said, I’m sure they’ll come up with a more “reliable” test.
            That is, one that more reliably gives them the answer they seek.
            The way you gullible morons eat it all up and with such relish savor the steady diet of FEAR they feed you is really something to behold.

            Hey, be sure to “get your flu shot!”

          • Who?

            Is this the flounce?

            If so, can he stick it?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Well, that’s silly. If all “they” wanted was a test that would give them the answer they want, why bother to do a test at all? Just make up the answers, like Wakefield. So much less work and bother! I’m going to have to bring this up at the next Pharma Shills United meeting. Nothing more annoying than an inefficient conspiracy. Why, the money they spent on the new test could be lining my pockets!

          • Who?

            I’ll second any motion you propose on that topic!

          • spinneywebber

            you watch too many movies, reality is a lot messier, it takes time to get everyone on the same page with the team message.

      • Who?

        He’s channelling The Donald-talk crap with confidence, cry that all his fee-fees are hurt by the mean lady, rinse and repeat.

        He’s sooking below that I’m unkind to him, just because I pointed out that he’s a sleazy ignoramus who can’t write a lucid sentence.

        This one is nearly busted.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Yeah, but I think he’s right to move from attempts to argue the evidence to straight ad homs: He’s much sounder on ad homs than on data.

          • Who?

            He is. And considering he started with the rude remarks-he cast nastursiums at my flawless undies, more than once-I have no problem alerting everyone to his proclivities.

            I don’t even have to make it up!

            Did you see his pathetic little whine below?

          • spinneywebber

            6 out of 270: 2%
            be very afraid of Zika

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Well, at least the math is right, if incomplete. 6 out of 270 confirmed in a disease where the identification of the causative agent is notoriously difficult and the epidemiologic evidence strongly suggests a connection. Could it be wrong? Sure it could. Could it be the vaccine, any vaccine? Nope. It’s also not chemtrails, 9-11, or cell phones. Sorry.

          • spinneywebber

            “epidemiologic evidence strongly suggests a connection”…2%

            heroic attempt to spin it your way, but convincing it is not.

            “identification of the causative agent is notoriously difficult”

            yeah, because the virus is so harmless they never bothered to develop a test for it. Most people who get it aren;t even aware they have it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Why is it not convincing? Are you not convinced by the clustering? Is the temporal correlation of the arrival of Zika not convincing? What is your alternative hypothesis and how does it better explain the data?

            So you believe that drug companies are evil and in a conspiracy with regulatory agencies all over the world to inoculate pregnant women with dangerous chemicals…and that they are able and willing to develop diagnostic tests based strictly on the severity of a condition. With no reference to the incidence or geographic distribution of the problem (bluntly, whether it occurs in the “first world” where they can make a lot of money off of it or not.) Very trusting of you.

          • Azuran

            Was it a double blind study? No? Then using your own standards it proves nothing.
            If you refuse to admit that vaccine are safe because there was never a double blind study, then you cannot accept Zika as being safe without the same level of scientific evidence.

      • Dagfinn Klausen

        Recognising Your name being one of the best I have seen in any discussion, may I suggest You upgrade Your profile with a relevant photo?
        Putting Your name into the StartPage search engine came up with this one. Assume the dog´s name is Computer.
        Enjoy.
        PS! If You decide to use it, there may be a fee to be paid…

    • Basic error here is assuming that Zika will be present in all the children born with microcephaly.

      The evidence suggests the virus causes defects when the mother gets it in the first trimester. So by birth, or by the time any tests on the children are done, the virus would have been cleared.

      Also, NOBODY, is claiming that Zika is to blame for EVERY microcephaly case. Normal rates are around 1-2 in every 10,000 births. It is the sudden increase that has got people worried.

      Simple explanations which you appear to have totally overlooked in your efforts to sell a non-existent conspiracy.

  • califmichele

    zika virus is a flavivirus related to the viruses that cause yellow fever and dengue. It was identified 70 years ago in the Zika jungle of Uganda, SO WHERE’S ALL THE CASES FROM 70 YEARS? Did you know in 2010 Genetically Modified Mosquitoes were released? What I’m looking for is when did the Health Dept in Brazil start requiring women to get Dtap vaccines while pregnant? Vaccines have been tainted previously. What are these ‘Scientist coming up with to kill us’?

    released in Cayman Island, Malaysia and Brazil

    In 2009 and 2010, Oxford-based company Oxitech released 3 million GM mosquitoes OX513A on the Cayman Islands, a British Overseas Territory. Information about these releases was only published a year later, and questions have been raised about the legality of the procedures under UK and EU legislation.

    In December 2010, GM mosquitoes were released in Malaysia, and in February 2011 in Brazil. The release of 16 – 24,000 GM mosquitoes OX513A (My1) in Malaysia took place at a moment when the public was left to believe that the trials were postponed.

    According to GeneWatch future releases are aledgely planned in countries like Panama, India, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam and the USA.

    last updated: February 2012
    http://www.econexus.info/topic/ge-mosquitoes

    • Rachele Willoughby

      Have y’all ever noticed that you can tell trolls from regular commenters without even reading their rambling, badly punctuated posts?

      • kellymbray

        I look for the massive use of CAPS!

      • spinneywebber

        haha, I’ve had to hold my tongue over Azuran’s multiple grammatical errors…I’d rather not nit pick such details.

        • Who?

          I may die laughing.

          You wouldn’t know a properly parsed sentence if it came and politely introduced itself.

          It’s ‘nitpick’, just so you know for next time.

    • Azuran

      Seeing as we had nowhere near our current medical knowledge and technology nor the means to share health information quickly and effectively 70 years ago. It’s totally reasonable that cases of microcephaly caused by zika 70 or even 30 years ago would not have been recognized as such.

    • Nick Sanders
    • yugaya

      GMO spelled backwards is OMG. I have to check what mosquito spelled backwards is, but I bet it means something too. Connect the dots…

      • Roadstergal

        “GMO spelled backwards in OMG”

        I regret that I have but one upvote to give this comment.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        OTIUQSOM? I’m pretty sure that’s the trade name of someone’s, probably Merck’s, newest drug. Might work better if you cheat and call it Otiqusom though. I’m guessing it’s an insomnia treatment, but you never know with trade names.

        • Who?

          Did you not get the memo? It was all over shillmail the other day.

          Perhaps in the spam folder?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Go out of town for one little job interview* and what happens? I miss all the good stuff!

            As a side note, if I ever write a zombie story, Otiquosom is definitely going to be the thing that causes the zombie plague.

            *Ironically, an actual pharma company job. Which I probably didn’t get because, despite what the conspiracy theorists think, pharma does in fact have standards.

          • Who?

            Good luck!

    • Boris Ogon

      SO WHERE’S ALL THE CASES FROM 70 YEARS?

      Zika has generally had a sylvatic life cycle. There have only been three notable outbeaks: the Yap Islands (which was pretty small), French Polynesia (much larger, with a Guillain-Barré signal), and now, basically, a giant amount of virgin soil.

      Now one gets to see what happens on a really large scale. Moreover, there’s an open question whether ZIKV—which is all set for purifying, synonymous substitutions thanks to the host–vector cycling—has happened onto a form with more extensive viremia.

      • Azuran

        that and 70 years ago people were otherwise occupied with things like WWII. I doubt they cared much about microcephaly in Africa/asia.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Wait, you lost me. Too many random accusations. Is it the vaccines or the genetically altered mosquitoes? And if I get bit by a genetically altered mosquito, will I gain mosquito related superpowers?

      • DaisyGrrl

        You only get superpowers if you live in the Marvel Universe. As was pointed out to me in the first days of this thread, the GMO mosquitoes are males, and thus do not bite.

        I think the developers of the genetically altered mosquitoes did it on purpose to ensure we can’t get any sweet, sweet superpowers.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Curses! Foiled again! I was hoping to gain the ability to fly and whine in a high pitched tone that drives people mad just listening to it.

          • DaisyGrrl

            The high pitched whining has been perfected by the anti-vaxxers parachuting into this thread.

            Instead, you should get a superpower that allows you to fly around and sting people with a dose of common sense.

    • The information about the introduction of DTaP to Brazil is not hidden or secret. It happened late 2014.

      This, by the way, was about 4 months after that same vaccine became routine for pregnant women in the UK. Yet not microcephaly spike has occurred.

      Australia has had a big push to vaccinate pregnant mothers recently, and a very vociferous anti-vaccine lobby failed to identify or “reveal” any spike in birth defects.

      The vaccine is clearly not to blame,

  • LibrarianSarah

    So what fresh pit of hell was this article reposted?

    • Madtowngirl

      I’m wondering this, myself.

      • kellymbray

        Judging by the total lack of intelligence, arrogance, and perseveration even the the face of complete debunking……I would save VRM and their cult.

  • Who?

    I’ve been asleep for many hours, and it’s really hot, and we woke up this morning to the news that zika is now an international health emergency.

    I’d like to ask our anti-vax (or, as those who feel they are developing in sophistication style themselves, vaccine pro-choice) visitors to think for a moment about the ramifications of what they are saying for thousands of pregnant women, and the parents of babies afflicted with microcephaly or GBS.

    The anti-vaxxers are attacking those women for following medical advice. They claim to be attacking Big Pharma or whoever their boogey man du jour is, but in the end it is the mothers who feel those attacks.

    My understanding of anti-vaxxers, developed over years of paying attention to their efforts at communication, is that they are driven by fear, and by the need to be part of a community that they strongly identify with. One of the ways they build this identity is by attacking outsiders.

    One of the outcomes of this is a total lack of empathy for anyone who doesn’t follow their script to the letter.

    This is what we’re seeing here.

    It’s times like this I wish I believed that what goes around comes around.

  • Megan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPT_vaccine

    Here is a primer on DPT, DTaP and Tdap.

  • Nick Sanders

    Just remember, despite Avinalaff calling Rachele a transexual, we’re the trolls. The parachuters are saints of unsullied virtue.

    • Rachele Willoughby

      For the record, I object to “transsexual” being used as an insult in general not so much it’s application to me personally. Not cool, dude.

      • Nick Sanders

        Indeed.

      • yugaya

        Pitiful even.

      • Who?

        Quite right too.

        It is far more pejorative of the person using it than the person they think they are describing.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        It’s a bit like “that’s so gay” or “that’s so retarded” in that respect. Grrrrr.

    • Megan

      And don’t forget, we’re all actually the same person, only with a few hundred different aliases.

      • Rachele Willoughby

        And *so much* free time.

        • demodocus

          not to mention fast typing skills

          • Nick Sanders

            And the ability to shift between dozens of accounts and IP addresses in seconds.

          • demodocus

            I assume there are several open windows

      • Bombshellrisa

        And we are all getting PAID or otherwise rewarded. (Anyone else have their shill money lost in the mail?)

        • Megan

          Yeah, WTF?? I want my pay, or at least some free diapers for my kids.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I would settle for some shoes for my two year old. Guess who somehow kicked off his shoes during a tantrum at Target? Yes, my son. The only pair that fit him too. I had no idea his was missing shoes until we got home. Yeah, this is after we bought boxes of diapers and the other necessities for him. Maybe I can cash in my shill points for kids shoes cause man, those things are expensive

          • momofone

            I’m not sure if I’ve reached shill-level qualifications, but my son sure could use some new shoes. It’s a month until payday, so if Big Money could come through soon, it would be much appreciated.

          • Bombshellrisa

            My Buy Nothing friends came through, and good thing. If you are on that (Facebook, local to your area) it can really help with those times when you need something and would like it to be free.

          • Megan

            Oh yes, my daughter loves to kick off shoes. So far we’ve been lucky enough to notice it when it happens but I’m sure we’ll lose a pair eventually.

          • BeatriceC

            I quickly learned why high tops were the shoes of choice for parents of toddlers for generations when my kids were little. The hassle of getting them on once was worth not having to put them back on every 7.2 minutes and losing them every second day.

        • BeatriceC

          Mine is lost as well. I wish it would show up so I could buy a new car instead of entering into week two of diagnostics and gremlin chasing in my 11 year old minivan. Walking everywhere or borrowing MrC’s SUV (which I hate with an unbridled passion) sucks. Thankfully almost everywhere I need to go is within a mile of my house, with the notable exception of the hospital the boys are treated at, but still, I’d like a running car. This is getting old.

    • demodocus

      i always assumed trolls reproduced assexually

      • Nick Sanders

        Well, I know orks grow from fungal spores, so maybe.

      • Who?

        It’s the less revolting option to think about, certainly.

      • kellymbray

        Like a slime mold?

    • Who?

      They really have the Donald Trump Thing going, don’t they. The moment they say something, it becomes true forever more, and if it turns out to not be correct, they bluster and repeat and the cycle starts again.

  • Liberty & Justice For All

    Wait.. I thought they claimed autism is genetic.. Now it’s caused by Zika?!
    How convenient. And the new vaccine for it almost ready. Anyone swallowing this crap?

    • Nick Sanders
      • Roadstergal

        Jesus, that really demonstrates the knowledge of the anti-vaxxers, doesn’t it. Like we needed more.

        • Avinalaff

          Just like the knowledge of the vaccine luvvie

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Everything you say is so spectacularly nonsensical I don’t know whether to be offended or amused.

          • Who?

            Be depressed.

            He is the best of his tribe, why else would they have sent him.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        In fact, autistic children tend to have slightly larger than average head circumferences. Also, microcephaly is a description of a phenomenon, not a specific disease so every case of microcephaly is not associated with zika. As the confusion about the case of VWMD below shows.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          On a side note, it wouldn’t shock me if the whole larger head circumference/autistic kids connection is why kids born via CS are slightly more likely to have autism–not because the CS caused the autism, but because the larger head circumference made a CS more likely.

    • Avinalaff

      Well Megan is, you know those Brazilian women were all given the DPT vaccine, whilst they were pregnant, and was no safety data for its use on pregnant women, well there is now, 2,400 babies full of it.

    • Who?

      It’s Donald Trump!

      Speaking crap with authority!

      I thought you were busy trying to dupe a bunch of evangelical christians into voting for you for president despite your venal worldly ways.

  • scott summers

    This lady is sipping the kool aid. The birth defects are being caused by the tdap vaccine. This is a cover up. Zika has never been linked to birth defects. Tdap is classified as a class c drug with proven birth defects in animals.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Boris Ogon

      Boostrix is Pregnancy Category B.

      • Avinalaff

        Boris is a dork, catagory A

        • Nick Sanders

          So, he’s been clinically demonstrated safe for pregnant women?

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Go Boris!

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Boris: the acetaminophen of men.

          • Roadstergal

            Aceta_men_ophen, baby. (Oh, all of the oral dosage jokes…)

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Acetaminophen can be introduced into the body by a number of routes. (Double entendre? I don’t know what you mean.)

          • Boris Ogon

            I have no idea how to take this. I have not come to bind all your glutathione, promise.

          • Who?

            I don’t either, but note that you don’t seem like an antivax moron with an attitude problem, so it’s probably a compliment.

          • kellymbray

            Are we talking to the osteopath again?

          • demodocus

            that’s for his partner to know

    • Rachele Willoughby

      At least this one got the name of the vaccine right.

      • Avinalaff

        Depends where you live, it is also called the Dpt. Zika has been around for 70 years, no one has mass injected pregnant women with Dpt until the 10 month period before this event.
        It’s a wrap

        • Nick Sanders

          Nope, DPT is a different vaccine.

        • Megan

          DPT is not the same as Tdap (or even DTaP). Why should we listen to anything you say if you don’t even know the difference between the vaccines.

  • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

    IF big pharma , WHO, CDC, FDA, had been honest, instead of recommending vaccinations, which has led to this horrific situation of siblings and mums and dads being vaccinated carriers INFECTING, their own babies, and everyone else…with whooping cough………. they would merely have had all acellular pertussis vaccinated family members tested to see if they were carriers of pertussis, before bub was born, and treated it with antibiotics…………….. HOW SIMPLE IS THAT? In 5 years, only 3 out of 10 vaccinated are still possible carriers, after 10 years no vaccinated carriers. Luckily the vaccine fails after an average of 2 years…….. After 10 years is 100% failure in everyone………… no more vaccinated carriers.

    • Rachele Willoughby

      Why do you use so many periods? Did punctuation kill your father?

      Also, we discussed this down below. Not that you read or understood anything we wrote. One. More. Time:

      Even *if* you can extrapolate the animal studies to human beings and assume that parents were infecting their own babies even though they themselves were asymptomatic they still had to catch the disease from somewhere. The vaccine did not give it to them. They caught it from an infected individual but showed no symptoms. Without the ebil vaccine they would have simply caught the disease and passed it onto their infants that way.

      • Avinalaff

        Hey Rachele, have all Racheles got bit tits or are you an exception? Have you got a strap on dick?

        • Rachele Willoughby

          I have a real dick thank you very much.

          • Nick Sanders

            Bigger than theirs, too, I’ll bet.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Well, since we’re all the same person, I suppose you’d know.

          • LibrarianSarah

            But is it a bit dick?

        • Who?

          Having a laugh.

          Got that right.

        • demodocus

          They don’t call me Strapper for nothing

    • Avinalaff

      Well they are all assholes, like the vaccine luvvies above and below.

      • Nick Sanders

        Says the person whose argument was “Boris is a dork”…

        Edit: and is now asking about women’s breast sizes and sex toy usage. Classy.

        • Rachele Willoughby

          Hey, I thought that one scored some points. I mean, the sentence is appropriately punctuated *and* makes logical sense. Who could ask for more?

  • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

    Why are people pretending zika is damaging, when there is absolutely no evidence, not even causal? while ignoring the fact, all these babies got vaccinated before birth,,,,,,,, mothers all got vaccines dtap from MAY.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Why are people trying so hard to deny that zika is real and damaging, both fetuses and adults? It seems to be a thing that people deny the reality of viral disease from general anti-vax “natural immunity is better and no one ever died of small pox” claims to “HIV is fake and was invented by the CIA/Merck/the KGB/whoever else I can blame” to “there is no ebola, it’s all malaria.” Why is it so important to people to deny infectious illness this way? Do they feel safer somehow? I don’t mean to be snarky, though I’m sure I am being: It’s clearly something deeply psychologically important to a lot of people a lot of the time.

    • Roadstergal

      Perhaps because emerging and mutating diseases in a changing world is a scary thing, and it’s easier to pretend it’s not so?

      Also, the Look At Me I’m Smarter Than The Experts, which never fails to appeal.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Doesnt scare me, thats what we have immune systems for….. anyhow what mutating diseases? Do you mean measles now being called atypical measles, that is spread amongst the vaccinated?…………….. 1200 vaccine damaged babies per month, however, surely should be investigated, rather than ignoring that fact, and saying 2 (TWO), were caused by zika?

        • Nick Sanders

          Do you mean measles now being called atypical measles, that is spread amongst the vaccinated?

          No matter how many times you say this, it means nothing without proof.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            I’m sure there’s a laymen’s blog somewhere that says so.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Plenty of references out there, but lets just concentrate on pertussis acellular vaccine, ie whooping cough, the vaccine that is a failure, in use since mid 90s.
            It is well documented that in measles outbreaks, those infected are much more likely to be vaccinated, than not vaccinated. but as measles is not deadly, it is not that relevant, except that the vaccine is useless.
            Pertussis vaccine failure, however, IS CAUSING BABY DEATHS…. and trying to vaccinate a baby before birth, well look what happened in Brazil?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Rachele Willoughby

            “Plenty of references out there…” but you won’t provide any because, reasons? Or is it because you know we’ll just mock you when it turns out to be a bunch of blogs?

          • Azuran

            Could you be bothered to link to documents about how the measles outbreak touched mainly vaccinated kids?

          • Roadstergal

            It’s the same mathematical ignorance that leads Angela Coral Eisenhauer to drive drunk everywhere, because numerically speaking, far more sober people get into automobile accidents.

            Since the vast majority of those exposed were vaccinated, many vaccinated children got infected. However, if you looked at exposure vs infection, you were massively more likely to be infected if you hadn’t been vaccinated, of course. It’s just that for all the noise they make, parents who like their kids to be sick are still a fringe movement.

          • Azuran

            I expected as much, I just wanted to show some proof of her claims

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Or just look thru all the references on my fb page……… if you dont want to search.

          • Nick Sanders
        • Roadstergal

          “Doesnt scare me, thats what we have immune systems for”

          Totally, that’s why congenital rubella syndrome didn’t exist in the pre-vaccine days.

          Do you get bonuses for excessive ellipses use, like punch cards for sandwiches?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Whats excessive ellipses and punch cards and sandwiches got to do with the horror of the magnitude of deformed babies, being born, because of being given a trial vaccine before birth? 4,000 now, and another 1200 a month, until the last affected will be born in July……………… do you actually grasp, the absolute horror, of what pharma have done? Can you imagine, all those other vaccinated in pregnancy women, just waiting, hoping it wont be them?

        • Rachele Willoughby

          And, really, who needs contact lenses? That’s what we have eyes for. Body systems never need help from modern medicine.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            ?????? sorry what has contact lenses got to do with anything? Um sorry contact lenses and vaccine damaged babies in Brazil??? um?

          • Rachele Willoughby

            I’m going to be generous and assume that you’re being purposefully dense (for your own amusement perhaps? I don’t know your life) and really do understand the meaning of allegory and sarcasm, even if you refuse to admit it.

          • Who?

            Nothing you’ve said is relevant to anything other than in your fevered brain.

            It’s busy but unproductive in there.

            Look up Cleveland, it’s a city.

        • Azuran

          My immune system tried to kill me whenever I had breastmilk as a baby. Obviously, immune systems are not perfect, maybe you shouldn’t trust it 100% to protect you against everything.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            It’s because your mother had an epidural, I’m sure. You body didn’t want any of that nasty big pharma drug milk.

          • Azuran

            Yea, except she didn’t. But it’s probably my future epidural that travelled back in time, just like the vaccines do.

    • Madtowngirl

      Because they think everyone, especially ebil big pharma and ebil government, is out to get them.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Who are “”they””? please elaborate.

        • Rachele Willoughby

          You. She’s talking about you. And your wordpress “references”.

          Also, that other guy, but I think he’s gone now. And that weird chick who thinks polio is a conspiracy.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm thats not wordpress. “The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) immunization schedule was updated in January, 2013 to recommend that a dose of Tdap vaccine be administered to all pregnant women during each pregnancy whether or not they have received the vaccine previously.

            … There have not been definitive studies on the efficacy and safety of this vaccine. … The Tdap vaccine contains aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 and may contain traces of thimerosal. Polysorbate 80 (also known as Tween 80) has been shown to cause infertility in animals.

            Parenteral injection of aluminum has been shown to cause neurotoxicity. Thimerosal contains 50% mercury by weight. Mercury is a known neurotoxin and carcinogen. Formaldehyde is a human carcinogen and highly toxic to all animals.

            … Is it safe to infect Tdap in a pregnant female? Nobody knows. Again, no studies have been done to ensure that the vaccine is safe.”

            ― David Brownstein, MD

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            All these pregnant women got dtap, and you trying to blame a mossie, do you know how absurd you all sound, ie the owners of this blog?

          • Nick Sanders

            Quit talk to yourself.

          • Charybdis

            TDaP. Again, it is TDaP.

            And do you know how barking mad you sound, spouting nonsense, moving goalposts, etc?

            No? Of course not. *pats head*

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            sorry, just shorter than writing acellular pertussis vaccine. and it isnt TDaP or TDaP Apparently it is Tdap does it matter? …………….
            The report specified the Tdap produced by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) of the United Kingdom as the one to be used. GSK has a technology transfer agreement with Brazil’s Butantan Institute for the production of the Tdap vaccine5 in Brazil.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            DTaP and TDaP are different vaccines. DTaP and TDaP are different vaccines. DTaP and TDaP are different vaccines. DTaP and TDaP are different vaccines.

            The fact that you honestly don’t know the difference after having it explained to you over and over in the simplest terms possible calls into question not just your qualifications but also your intelligence.

          • Roadstergal

            Maybe she doesn’t realize that the order of letters in words is important.

            I remember a comedian many years ago – “I played cello for the London Philharmonic Orchestra, but they fired me because I’m dyslexic and kept telling people I worked for the PLO.”

          • Boris Ogon

            In Portuguese, the relevant vaccine is “dTpa.”

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Good to know.

          • Megan

            Thank you for that. That is useful.

          • demodocus

            All the pregnant women in my area have gotten TDaP in the last couple of years; Have you heard of the massive microcephaly outbreak in Cleveland?

          • demodocus

            (There isn’t one)

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Should I have? Wheres Cleveland? Never heard of that country.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            I thought you knew how to Google? You might want to quietly go do that real quick before you embarrass yourself (even more).

          • Azuran

            huh, my brain. Your comment is so stupid, it gave me an aneurysm

          • Roadstergal
          • Nick Sanders

            Fuck yes, that was a great show.

          • Avinalaff

            They all shrank

          • Who?

            Just because it can’t be said often enough, and sometimes even The Donald needs correction: the brains don’t shrink, they just don’t grow.

            I get that you have contempt for knowledge, and you wear your vicious ignorance with pride, but you will sound less stupid if you avoid getting every single fact utterly, completely and hopelessly wrong.

            Oh actually what do you care? Why let the facts get in the way of your grand obsession of the moment?

          • demodocus

            Did I say country?

          • momofone

            Do you know how absurd “mossie” sounds when you use in it a context in which you’re trying to impress the masses with your superior knowledge?

          • Nick Sanders

            Especially since mosquitos can spread all kinds of nastiness: dengue, yellow fever, west nile, and the greatest killer in human history: malaria.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Is it really the greatest killer in human history? I would have guessed diarrheal illnesses. Though I don’t know that much about malaria.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve read that estimates for it’s death toll range as high as half of all deaths ever.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Wow. That’s crazy.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Is that counting or not counting the people who died of RBC mutations that are prevalent because they protect against malaria in heterozygous state but kill in homozygous? Mosquitoes are responsible for sickle and sickle is one of the most ridiculously evil diseases ever.

          • Nick Sanders

            I do not know.

          • Who?

            To be fair ‘mossie’ is an entirely reasonable Australian contraction for ‘mosquito’. Pronounced ‘mozzie’.

            Unfortunately it is being used by a joke with a keyboard, so I can see you’d find it unsettling.

          • momofone

            The joke with the keyboard is the part that got to me. It just seemed to contribute to the ludicrousness in that moment. (I’m married to a Kiwi, so have heard it and never found it objectionable before, though I’m happy to say my husband isn’t a raving lunatic either.)

          • Who?

            So pleased you’re not married to a raving lunatic!

          • Nick Sanders

            Not a single one of them got DTaP.

          • Boris Ogon

            All these pregnant women got dtap [sic]

            I take it this is based on the “mandate” asserted by the idsent blog. There’s just one problem: a quick examination of the original document (PDF) promptly reveals that it is merely a recommendation, preferably administered during the third trimester, which would eliminate any association with microcephaly.

            I know, thinking is hard.

          • Megan

            “preferably administered during the third trimester, which would eliminate any association with microcephaly”

            I tried explaining this to her earlier. She couldn’t even understand basic fetal development, even in chart form or how Tdap is administered after a severe microcephaly would develop. Good luck; if it doesn’t confirm her bias, she isn’t interested.

          • Avinalaff

            Problem is that when you think Boris, you fart

          • Rachel

            Why are the cases clustered then?

          • Nick Sanders
          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So yeah, about 50% mercury by weight (atomic weight of mercury is 200, so more tha 50% in fact). But I don’t think it means what she thinks it means.

          • Roadstergal

            Table salt contains more than 50% chlorine by weight. Chlorine is a highly poisonous gas. I’m sure the salt is what caused the birth defects.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            The first paragraph you quoted comes from the link you provided. The other three paragraphs come from… your fevered imagination?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            No comes from David Brownstein, MD, as written at the bottom.

          • Nick Sanders
          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            “”””individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.”””” FDA report, if you dont believe its true heres the reference, in case you missed it…. http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

          • Nick Sanders

            I never said I didn’t believe it, I said it doesn’t generalize to other vaccines. And since you claimed other vaccines are the problem, the burden of proof is on you.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t see Brownstein mentioned anywhere on that page.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            We. Already. Talked. About. This. C’mon, work with us here.

          • Avinalaff

            Same with Paul Offit, here is a video of Paul Offit rationalizing on the failure of vaccines.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18JmieM8SFc

          • Nick Sanders
          • Rachele Willoughby

            Reference please.

          • Avinalaff

            Better take an aspirin

          • Boris Ogon

            Thimerosal contains 50% mercury by weight.

            Boostrix doesn’t contain thimerosal.

          • Avinalaff

            dick

          • Azuran

            so, someone shows you proof and your answer is ‘dick’? How mature.

          • Who?

            Is Avinalaff removing his own remarks-they might put off his clients at the osteopath place-I won’t call it a clinic, as no health care goes on there.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Note that the statements made after the link to the FDA, above, do not contain the words that are printed after it in the comment. At no point does the linked press release make any statement about the safety of Tdap in pregnancy. At no point does it discuss thimerosal or aluminum. Or any other vaccine ingredient. The only thing it discusses is the possibility that the acellular vaccine clears the bacteria more slowly than the whole cellular vaccine. About 6 weeks versus 3 weeks in baboons. Hard to know how to extrapolate that to humans but being vaccinated for at least 6 weeks before being close to newborns seems prudent. The rest of it is total nonsense that ACE made up.

          • Nick Sanders

            Also, neither the FDA nor CDC have any authority in Brazil.

          • Avinalaff

            the job of the idiots on this site is to keep people in bullshite loops, they have no interest in anything useful. they are like those pantie salesmen who blog “i just got this great pair of …….” to up sales.
            Don’t post any links to papers that diss them, they get them taken down, like what happened to wikipedia. Just point out the fallacies in their statements, keep them out of the loop

          • Nick Sanders
          • Who?

            Don’t be so hard on your fellow anti vaxxers.

            Do you get any clients as an osteopath, btw? I don’t call them patients, because your field is a joke.

        • Nick Sanders

          You, Spinny, Graceds, sabelmouse, Avinalaff, Kaja, flow, lifebiomedguru, Randal, Ruth. There’s more, but I’m getting tired of scrolling down. Is that enough to qualify as a “they” for you?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Is it relevant? Do you actually have any opinion on the article, that a vaccine should be produced, to fight a disease caused by a vaccine disaster? Or a mythical mossie, or the other theory, the women all drank out of the same coke bottle? Anything, anything logical? Any normal sort of rational response?

          • Nick Sanders

            You have not at all proved a vaccine caused this, so stop acting like you have.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Actually, “the women all drank out of the same coke bottle,” is the *least* crazy thing you’ve suggested today.

          • Avinalaff

            Rachele, get your tits out, your opinions have no sale value

          • demodocus

            Tits are only for nursing. Didn’t you hear? We have a whole blog post about it.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Well, if I was lactating, then maybe I could use my liquid gold to fix his stupid.

          • Who?

            He’d probably still be obnoxious though.

            Breastmilk can’t fix everything.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Blasphemy!

          • Who?

            Oh I know.

      • Avinalaff

        No, they are fuckwits and business men. this does not make for a good doctor. Swine flu was the same, a big pile of media medical bullshite, and they made a lot of money out of it.
        Since when was big pharma a charity and any warmongering government a philanthropist – did you believe in ‘weapons of mass destruction then Madfuckwit?

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      Here is a reference for you, basically no mosquito can possibly spread a virus that fast……….. they have a life cycle, they need to breed, to spread, to bite, impossible for all the women to have got bitten the same week, to start the first 1200 per month, and steady, victims….. Impossible. https://idsent.wordpress.com/2016/01/23/jumping-the-gun-on-the-zika-microcephaly-connection/

      As for the microcephaly zika connection……….. there IS NO CONNECTION………………….. As for all your other comments, they certainly are not relevant, and no one on this thread so far has mentioned HIV, nor malaria, nor ebola…………. so dont know where you got all that nonsense from, not this discussion. So why try are you trying to include stuff that is not relevant to your discussion, that you believe zika is rea and damaging foetuses? There is nothing that even implies Zika is damaging adults?

      • Charybdis

        No single mosquito can. But they bite numerous people. Not real sure how disease vectors work, are you?

        Large numbers of mosquitoes carrying the Zika virus have shown up in Brazil. These mosquitoes bite people, transmitting the virus. These people now have the virus. Other mosquitoes who don’t carry the virus bite the infected people. Now the mosquitoes are infected and can spread the virus to the people they bite. See how it works?

        • Nick Sanders

          Also, people aren’t stationary objects.

          • Bombshellrisa

            ((I had to like this because I read it as my two year old came running over with something. Turns out letting your Mickey and Minnie Mouse car take nose dives off the coffee table is bad for the characters. He was handing me the heads of both Minnie and Mickey, they fell off. He then took off like a whirlwind and is rearranging everything.))

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          Do you know how absurd that sounds? NO Zika, all of a sudden beginning October BANG 1200 a month affected babies………… Are they superfast mosquitos in Brazil, flying great distances, and infecting all these women, all starting the same week?

        • Avinalaff

          zika has been around for 70 years most people have a flu like event and recover. Not ever has small heads been associated. it is not relevant. But what is relevant is that during the pregnancy, for the first time ever, all these women had been given a vaccine the Dpt, and it is not even supposed to be given to pregnant women.
          Can you not work that out? No because you are a vaccine luvvie

          • Nick Sanders

            They also got the virus for the first time ever, because until now, ZIKA HAD NEVER BEEN IN BRAZIL. Flaviviruses are known to cause birth defects, TDaP (not DPT) has been used for decades without any such incident.

          • Rachel

            Pregnant women throughout the whole country received the vaccine. And by the way they received the Tdap vaccine. Not the Dpt. But anyhow.
            How then do you explain the clustering of microcephaly cases? Wouldnt the microcephaly cases be spread to all parts of the country? In equal numbers if it was caused by the vaccine?

          • Charybdis

            I. Will. Say. It. Again. No pregnant woman received the Dpt. Or the DTaP. Those are different vaccinations indicated for different populations. If they were given DTaP or Dpt, then their doctors need some remedial education.

            TDaP is what was given, and has been given to women in the third trimester of pregnancy for years. There has not been an outbreak of microcephaly cases like this after vaccination. For as long as that vaccine has been recommended/given, you’d think we’d have heard something about it by now. But no.

            Zika virus is new to Brazil, so the population of the country does not have any exposure to the virus, so there is no single or herd immunity already in existence in Brazil. So the virus is spreading quickly and Brazil is seeing some aftereffects like the outbreak of microcephaly.

            The Zika virus is the only new variable in the equation, can you not see that? Of course not. Much like allergies, you suspect the newest variable to the culprit, until proved otherwise. TDaP given for years to pregnant women in the third trimester to boost their immunity and provide some passive immunity to the baby until they can get their own vaccinations. No microcephaly outbreak with that step. Ooh, look! A new mosquito (for this area) is around now. it is discovered that the new mosquito carries a virus not seen in this part of the world before. After the mosquitoes show up, then they start having the microcephaly issues on a large scale. Seems to be basic, sound logic on where to start looking for answers.

            Please take notes and pay attention. There will be a pop quiz later.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        • Avinalaff

          I think you have lost this nymbot

    • Avinalaff

      I think more than your nym got ate. why can’t you look at the data and process? Why are you in vaccine failure denial?

  • yugaya

    Dr Tuteur can you make a new post on this please? The onslaught of antivaxxers and +1500 comments are killing my browser.

    • Rachele Willoughby

      No, Yugaya. The *stupid* is killing your browser. Have you tried rubbing some raw garlic on your keyboard?

      • DaisyGrrl

        I recommend treating the keyboard homeopathically. Dump a glass of water on the keyboard and it will clean up all the comments!

        • Roadstergal

          Homeopathic stupid for keyboard treatment – would that be typing one stupid thought out?

          • Nick Sanders

            Not diluted enough.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Hilarious, this thread is livening up a bit! yugaya, you losing control? a bit? Rachele, love the reply! If he/she so stressed, can always just stop posting,
            Here is the link again, the one from FDA that clearly states “”””individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.””” http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm
            THUS THE REASONING BEHIND VACCINATING BABIES BEFORE BIRTH> Mothers/fathers/ siblings that have been vaccinated with the failed acellular pertussis vaccine, in last 10 years, can and do carry pertussis, without showing signs of illness, AND DO INFECT THEIR OWN BABIES. Cant vaccinate a newborn baby, it kills them, so how do you try and hide the fact THOSE VACCINATED WITHOUT SYMPTOMS ARE KILLING BABIES? You either stop vaccinating, and all the vaccine fails in 10 years, no more vaccinated carriers, and throat swab family members just before baby is born, to see if they are carriers…………… OR HIDE THE FAILURE AND ATTEMPT A NEW UNTRIED UNTESTED THING, VACCINATED BABIES BEFORE BIRTH? Which one makes the most money? They expected baby deaths, ie called miscarriages, I dont think they anticipated the absolute obvious blunder they have done, trying to hide a vaccine, that is such a failure, it is presently the direct cause of more pertussis baby deaths, than ever before known in history.

          • Nick Sanders

            http://i.imgur.com/sHOTeWY.jpg

            Yeah, showing one vaccine can allow people to be carriers does not prove that all vaccines are such.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Actually, the study in question didn’t even do that. The press release is on a study in baboons.

          • Nick Sanders

            I thought you knew I was a baboon. Didn’t you notice my brightly colored ass pads?

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Not bright enough. This is why you’ll never attract a quality mate.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            You do realize that had these mothers been unvaccinated they would have simply *caught the disease* (and passed it to their infants) instead of becoming carriers.

            The vaccine does not create or spread the disease, it simply allows the vaccinated to carry it asymptomatically.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            No, if GSK, WHO had been honest, instead of recommending vaccinations, JUST to keep the cycle of vaccinated carriers going, AND INFECTING, their own babies, and everyone else……….. they would merely have had all acellular pertussis vaccinated family members tested to see if they were carriers of pertussis, before bub was born, and treated it with antibiotics…………….. HOW SIMPLE IS THAT? In 5 years, only 3 out of 10 vaccinated are still possible carriers, after 10 years no vaccinated carriers. Luckily the vaccine fails after an average of 2 years…….. After 10 years is 100% failure in everyone………… no more vaccinated carriers.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            But the disease would still be running rampant through the population. I’m not sure how your “solution” helps anyone.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Pertussis is a mild disease in kids, regardless of 100% being vaccinated in china, and 95% in parts of Australia, pertussis is still RUNNING RAMPANT…… The vaccine is making sure, it stays running rampant. Stop vaccinating, within about 8 or 10 years no more vaccinated carriers…….. Those still with vaccine immunity, are the dangerous ones, as they have no signs of infection, so they go near babies… they dont just spread pertussis once, for 8 weeks, EVERY time they get re infected (even by another symptomless carrier), they spread it again for 8 weeks, they are pertpetual carriers of pertussis………. until finally between 0-10 years, the vaccine fails, and they get pertussis themselves………. This vaccine is not working, even amongst those vaccinated, it lasts an average of only 2 years……………………… so what solution do you have rather than just stop using the vaccine?

          • momofone

            A dear friend of mine had two babies who died of pertussis, many years before the vaccine was available. Such a mild disease.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Maybe she didn’t feed them enough organic foods.

          • Azuran

            Nah, the vaccine travelled back in time to shed on those kids.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            I specifically said IS MILD IN CHILDREN, DEADLY IN BABIES……….So attempting to prevent a mild illness in children, by vaccinating, actually means they are protected themselves, but then able to infect babies, and they have absolutely no symptoms of disease. Mild in children……. I guarantee a lot of the kids coughing around you are 1. Fully vaccinated for whooping cough and 2. Have whooping cough. Health departments dont even bother to count it now… doctors dont bother to send kids for testing….. Why bother? 30,000 verified infected, mean at least another 30,000 who dont realise their mild cough is actually pertussis, and another 30,000 still with vaccine immunity, but infected and spreading pertussis, without symptoms?
            If all I do in this thread, is get people to stop and think, and get a throat swab, if they have had acellular vaccine in the last 8 years…………. so they dont kill a baby…………. that will be great…. vaccinated carriers have no symptoms, but can easily get a throat swab………….

          • Charybdis

            It is my understanding that they do not do a throat swab for pertussis. It is a nasopharyngeal swab or aspirate. So, definitely more uncomfortable and difficult than a strep swab.

            Procedure fail.

          • BeatriceC

            Yes, it’s a nasopharyngeal swab. My oldest thought it was one of the most uncomfortable medical procedures he’s ever been though, and this is a kid who’s had over a dozen orthopedic operations ranging from “mild” (tumor removal) to major (skeletal reconstruction).

          • momofone

            It’s not necessary to shout. I can read lowercase just fine, thanks.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Kids in the outbreaks in Australia, didnt even suspect pertussis, they went out and about……….. just some of them were still coughing after 4-6 weeks, so they got tested……….. Any kids coughing near you, when you go out and about, are more that likely suffering pertussis, is mild……….. The vaccine was meant to protect babies, because they couldnt be vaccinated, and what happened? Everyone now can be either, a vaccinated carrier, or a vaccination failure, who has pertussis anyway?

          • Charybdis

            Pertussis CAN be mild, but most of the time it is not. It can, and has killed babies and children for decades (at least). And it can be caught multiple times,so if you have a milder case, perhaps your vaccine (or naturally) acquired immunity has help moderate the body’s response.

            But somehow, that is a fail in your book.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            KILLS BABIES, in kids aged 6-12, mild illness, not deadly………….. however if those kids hadnt been vaccine failures and kept vaccinating for it every 2 years, they would be virtually lifelong carriers, spreading it to babies………… and babies die. As for number of baby deaths? More now than ever before in history,,,,,,,, all in vaccinated populations……… Never happened when the old whole cell vaccine was in use……….. vaccination rates have GONE UP, not down. Once you have had real pertussis, you dont get it again…………………… Catch it multiple times? Rubbish. The only ones catching it multiple times are the vaccinated carriers, as they just “”carry it”” over and over, and dont catch it until their own vaccine fails in average of 2-3 years.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            My son and I both had bad persistent coughs last fall. Not whooping cough, but > 2 months of coughing (I still have some of it).

            And it sucked royally. It was awful. We brought him to the doctor twice to try to get something to help it, because it made life unbearable for us.

            That would be a mild pertussis. No thanks. It sucked.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            But did you DIE?!?!!?!!?!???

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            2 months of coughing, you are now totally and lifelong protected from pertussis…….(did you get a pertussis test? if not how do you know it wasnt pertussis?)……. You and your son will never ever be symptomless carriers infecting newborn babies…………….. Real awful, but didnt kill you like it does newborn babies, that vaccinated carriers pass on to babies, without even knowing.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            We weren’t test because it wasn’t sever enough to suspect pertussis.

            But dumbass, I don’t care if it didn’t kill me. It sucked. It “made life unbearable for us.”

            And you don’t care. You are tied up in your little delusions that you would rather people suffer.

            You get whooping cough and YOU live through. How dare you wish it on me and my family! What an asshole.

          • Nick Sanders

            Pertussis immunity does not last indefinitely.

          • BeatriceC

            I refuse to reply to a troll, so I’m picking you to reply to.

            My oldest son would vehemently disagree with the idea of pertussis being mild, even the form that the doctor declared to be mild. His “mild” case at age 14 was horrible enough that he still freaks out a little bit every time he gets a little cough because of how painful and scary even mild pertussis really is. He’s 16 now.

          • demodocus

            Tell Pres. Garfield that his baby’s pertussis was mild. Sure, his other kids survived.

          • demodocus

            I think the baby in question was actually a toddler

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Mild disease in kids, can you not read? Deadly in babies. That is why it is so horrific, that vaccinated siblings (that dont need the vaccine protection), are infecting their own babies, because these siblings are vaccinated carriers?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            And somehow the magic natural immunity didn’t protect the child from dying. Amazing, that. I’m sure that Garfield’s children didn’t receive vaccines. If they had perhaps the toddler wouldn’t even have gotten pertussis, much less died of it.

          • Azuran

            So, let’s pretend for one second that you stupid theory about vaccine shedding carrier is true.

            In your fantasy, the older siblings are asymptomatic carriers. They give their illness to the baby and the baby dies. So we should stop vaccinating them.
            But do you realize that what would happen then is that we would have siblings who are actively sick, who would still give their illness to the baby (because they would start being contagious long before you realize they are sick) and the baby would still die. But now you’d have 5 other sick kids to take care of while you mourn your baby. How is that better?

          • Nick Sanders
          • yugaya

            Angela I bet you’ve shoved a few natural food remedies into places and it totally worked amirite?

        • demodocus

          Toddlerboy did that like 4 months ago. Totally cleaned up my Skype box. …and everything else.
          On a related note, he hasn’t stolen my tea since.

        • BeatriceC

          MrC tried that with unsweetened iced tea about a year ago. Thankfully my laptop survived, unlike several years prior when the redheaded wonder child dumped orange juice on the keyboard of my old laptop.

      • yugaya

        My naturopath IT tech says pouring yogurt into the disc drive gets rid of infection naturally. :)))

        • Roadstergal

          What about a squirt of breastmilk?

          • yugaya

            Yes! I forgot! Breastmilk cures everything, even poverty according to Lancet!

          • Madtowngirl

            I’m broke! Someone get me some breast milk, stat!

          • Charybdis

            Maybe we can ask Amazed’s SIL, who is pumping and dumping to send us some. Or, HEY!!!!! Save it for Treasure’s college fund.

          • demodocus

            Treasure could always save the frozen extras and sell it on EBay

        • Azuran

          Magnets are also super effective

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          Your naturopath is full of shit!

          ~*My*~ naturopath says onion discs. Has to be red, though.

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          This conversation is so stunningly ???? Ummm? Troll technique 3. make lots and lots of alias’s and talk nonsense to yourself…………. haha cracking me up!!!!!

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, I’m so stunningly bored that I made several dozen different discus profiles, gave them all different activities and reading habits going back several years, just so I could troll you here today in this one comment section.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Well, time travel is a proven* side effect of vaccines so I guess it’s possible.

            *because Angela said it.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            You keep accusing us of being trolls but you’ll notice than none of us has parachuted over to *your* blog to cause trouble.

            You’re in *our* playground. Why would we make up fake identities to play in our own sandbox?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because I want to be Godzilla and smash through the sandcastles.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Touche

        • BeatriceC

          Wait, I use a MacBook Air. No disc drive. What should I do now?

          • demodocus

            Tape the onion slice onto the back and rub garlic on the front

  • Avinalaff

    This is a bullshit article. We all know those Brazilian women were vaccinated whilst pregnant in the 10 month period preceeding the births with the DPt vaccine. There is no safety data for using this vaccine on pregnant women, zika virus has been around for year and not caused this. The whole thing is a PR exercise to divert the blame.

    • Megan

      How original. No one has mentioned this enlightening viewpoint yet. /sarcasm

      • Avinalaff

        Well, you don’t get out much do you? Have a look around, there is more beyond the myopic world of the vaccine luvvie.

        • Rachele Willoughby

          What are you even talking about? Did you mean to reply to some other comment perhaps?

    • Roadstergal

      Yes, all of the parachuters have come in to tell us about the magic time-traveling vaccine that has a grudge against a very specific geographical area within Brazil.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Hello Roadstergal, a new one on the thread,,,,,,,, so what is your theory, mythical mossie, all the women drank out of the same coke bottle, the fact they all got dtap in pregnancy, or of course, the fact Brazil uses 20% of the worlds horror pesticides, all by itself?

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          which other alias did you just parachute from?

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Yes, *we’re* the pseudonyms. The four of us just hang around during all the other non-trolly times having long conversations with ourselves under the several *hundred* profiles that regularly comment on this blog.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            If we are all the same person though, I get to be Bofa.

          • Roadstergal

            Sorry, you’re me. Remember to pick up some tofurkey tonight on the way home.

          • demodocus

            Oh, and some ice cream! we’re still pregnant!

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Strange, when I woke up this morning I thought that we were menstruating. How awkward.

          • Roadstergal

            Not if you have my IUD.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s gonna hurt like hell to be coming out of our penis.

          • demodocus

            C-section dude. That’s what the did in Junior when Aahhnold was pregnant

          • Nick Sanders

            You can c-section period blood?

          • Roadstergal

            I thought we had delivered and were successfully breastfeeding? I guess it’s not my turn to be Dr Kitty. 🙁

          • BeatriceC

            Dr. Kitty is a time traveling version of me, I thought. Now I’m confused.

        • Roadstergal

          “a new one on the thread”

          No, actually.

          I don’t quite get the rest of the word salad, but if you’re the site phlebotomist that has been under-drawing our Cytochex, stop doing that.

        • Nick Sanders

          How about the outbreak of a flavivirus in a population with no prior exposure? Flaviviruses are known to cause birth defects.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      Come on, it was written by a gynaecologist!! Read the whole thread and comments, they are rippers!

    • Nick Sanders
    • Charybdis

      TDaP. Not DPt. Make a note of that, we are tired of correcting people.

    • Boris Ogon

      Oh, look, it’s Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, with yet another new pseudonym.

      • Oh come on now! He’s had this account for 6 weeks now. That’s pretty good for him!

        • Boris Ogon

          I haven’t been paying much attention to Disqustink.

        • Boris Ogon

          Hey, wait: "joinedAt":"2016-01-15T21:28:28".

      • Who?

        Is that who it is? I’ll tell my friends.

        Even assuming osteopathy was a thing serious people took seriously, who would let a tits and bums obsessed sleazebag like this guy touch them with his disgusting hands?

        • Boris Ogon

          Even assuming osteopathy was a thing serious people took seriously, who would let a tits and bums obsessed sleazebag like this guy touch them with his disgusting hands?

          It’s even worse: his pseudonyms have disparaged his wife’s profession (and possibly race; I’d have to look back), as well as theism, despite his being a member of the Brentwood Catenians. He also has made an ass of the first water of himself under his own name by posting antivaccine gibberish at… the Rotary Club, his membership in which he otherwise advertises with pride.

          The first two could be ascribed to a truly pathetic attempt to pretend that he hadn’t been caught dead to rights some time ago (indeed, he’s spent plenty of posts asserting that he is not “Mr. Hill” [sic]), but once it all gets packaged up, including his choosing pseudonyms such as “fingerblaster” and “ladycum,” one’s well into “do not be alone in a room with this person” territory.

          • Who?

            Ickity ick ick.

            If osteopaths had professional standards he’d be disbarred: yet another reason to avoid osteopaths.

            Poor wife.

  • prudentplanner

    If
    1) there aren’t any serious consequences for non-pregnant women with Zika,
    2) the disease will become endemic,
    3) once the initial infection is over then the body has ‘beaten’ the virus,
    Then aren’t people protected by natural immunity now? (Its a real question – i’m not being intentionally anti-vax).

    Wouldn’t intentionally infecting non-pregnant people (before they get pregnant) protect them from the worst consequences of ZIKA…. Zika parties for all the teens!

    I guess we would have to know if there were any lingering effects on people who get the virus or women who are pregnant after recovering from the virus.

    • demodocus

      pre-teens, if the area is like my home town.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      Excellent comments, yes one would think, if this virus is new, and spreading rapidly, the best thing to do would be TO NOT KILL IT, as they have already told women not to fall pregnant till 2018, let everyone get zika……………which will happen by 2017, as it is spreading as rampantly as they say, and everyone will always have natural protection………… All it causes is a mild flu like illlness, never killed anyone previously.

      • Avinalaff

        Zika is not a new virus, it has been known about for 70 years. What is new is that those Brazilian women got the DPT vaccine whilst pregnant. If they started doing that in the West we would probably see the same awful result

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          Yes, Avinalaff,,,,, but the post from prudent planner is excellent……… I recommend you re read it…………. IF zika is a new virus, spreading so rapidly that so many people must have got bitten, for 1200 women a month, since October ONLY are now having disabled babies, this virus i must therefore be very very rapid……….. There is no problems in the literature that says there is a problem if you get bit, while not pregnant………… Surely the best thing to do, would be to not vaccinate, let the mossie give everyone natural immunity?
          As for vaccinating pregnant women in the WEST, they started that in 2014, however, most western women get scans, ..The USA has just passed a major milestone, the late term miscarriages ( dtap? flu vaccine?), have just passed the rate of neonatal deaths……………. and that doesnt even account for the terminations, due to vaccine damage.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Nope. Zika only arrived in South America in the 2010s. Sorry, try again.

      • Rachele Willoughby

        “…as they have already told women not to fall pregnant till 2018…”

        Simple enough. It’s not like Brazil is a devoutly catholic, anti-birth control, anti-abortion country. We’ll just tell all the wimens to keep their legs closed for two years.

    • Roadstergal

      “Natural” immunity is unreliable. A vaccine with an appropriate booster schedule would give more consistent immunity.

      An epidemic in French Polynesia raised the possibility of neurological risks of ‘natural’ infection to adults.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Vaccine immunity effectiveness statistics are totally reliable…… Pertussis vaccine at full vaccination works in 8 out of 10, after 5 years, it is working in only 3, after 10 years is a total 100% failure. Yep they are reliable, wherever you use the vaccine, those results are Totally reliable! Also totally reliable, is the fact, during an outbreak, all those still with pertussis immunity, due to the vaccine, actually carry the disease without symtoms, and spread it, even to newborn babies…………… RELIABLE, STATISTICS………… THEY DONT CHANGE. As for natural immunity, well that reliably goes from mother to infant in antibodies and breadmilk, unlike vaccine immunity………………. Such a shame, vaccinated mothers, no symptoms, now infecting their own newborns, and having absolutely no real immunity to pass to their infant…………… BUT THEY HAD THE SOLUTION! Vaccinate the babies, before birth, so their own mothers dont infect them! They could more easily, just admitted the failure of the vaccine, and stopped vaccinating,,,,, in 2010, when they knew the problem. By now, after 6 years, near 90% of the vaccines would have failed, and those mothers, and siblings, WOULD NO LONGER HAVE BEEN VACCINATED SYMPTOMLESS CARRIERS.

        • Nick Sanders

          Capslock doesn’t turn lies into facts.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Oh boosters, yep for pertussis and mumps, you need to vaccinate every two (2) years…………….. as for measles, it is spread amongst the vaccinated now anyway, cant vaccinate for a disease caused by the vaccination?

        • Nick Sanders

          as for measles, it is spread amongst the vaccinated now anyway

          Prove it.

    • yugaya

      “Wouldn’t intentionally infecting non-pregnant people (before they get
      pregnant) protect them from the worst consequences of ZIKA..”

      No. A vaccine would though.

      • Avinalaff

        No, not having the DPT vaccine whilst pregnant would stop it, that is the only diff between these poor Brazilian women – zika virus has nothing to do with it

        • yugaya

          Idiocy galore. DPT vaccine was/is not given in Brazil whilst pregnant.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Zika is mosquito borne. You don’t want to encourage anyone to get bitten by as many mosquitoes as possible in the hopes of getting zika resistant because mosquitoes carry quite a number of other diseases as well.

      The disease is not endemic to the area. It is an invasive species, sort of like small pox a while back. While most people appear to recover from zika with few consequences, a certain number have neurologic sequelae, including a GBS type picture. Not something you want to risk.

      • Monkey Professor for a Head

        Also since Zika is transmitted only by a certain species of mosquito which only lives in specific parts of the world, you would have to worry about non immune people moving into affected areas.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Not to mention the mosquito moving into new areas as global warming continues. Which they are. There are now Aedes mosquitoes in Texas and reports of Dengue fever. Zika is not endemic to the Americas. Remember what happened last time a non-endemic virus showed up in the Americas? It’s only a matter of time before it hits the continental US and Canada as well.

        • Avinalaff

          Or if you are pregnant don’t get the DPT vaccine like those Brazlian women did, it has no safety data for use on pregnant women, but it has 2,400 parcels of data now.

    • Azuran

      Except that not 100% of the people will have the disease before they get pregnant. Even if the disease become endemic
      Remember how, before the chickenpox vaccine was a thing, people were super careful about not infecting adults who had never gotten it before (because apparently it’s worst in adult, not sure if it’s true, but people thought of this) The point it, despite chickenpox being endemic, not 100% of people had in before becoming adult.
      Or rubella. It was endemic, and most people got it as kids, but it was not uncommon for pregnant women to not be immune and be infected and have babies with birth defect.
      Today we also still have the 5th disease, which is also endemic, but is still being screened for in pregnant women at risk of exposure because many are not immune and it can cause abortion or birth defect.
      So no, hoping for women to be infected before pregnancy is not a good way to go.

      • Charybdis

        Ask Mishimoo about how chicken pox affect adults…

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Not 100% of people will have the disease before pregnancy, but geez, if it is spreading so rapidly, 4,000 in 3 months….. now how many must have been bitten, in this scenario? In another two full years, most people would have been bitten, surely? Using pesticides and vaccines, Not 100% of zika will be wiped out with all the pesticides either?? and vaccines only work in 8 out of 10 people anyway……. As for the analogy with chicken pox, this is spread, rather “shed”” by the vaccinated. This is common knowledge, so how could vaccination, prevent adults from catching chicken pox, that have never had it? Vaccinations, are making sure everyone has chicken pox. My daughter had to vaccinate all hers at once, as there is no point just vaccinating one child, as that vaccinated child, spreads it to everyone. Three schools in Australia, had this problem,, some kids went and got vaccianted, and everyone else at the school caught chicken pox off of them.

        I had chicken pox as a kid, so did all my kids, no one ever got it as an adult pre vaccine…………………… Rubella, well if mums got that as kids, before pregnancy, it was never a problem………. So why would it not be good to get naturally immunity from having zika, which is a lot less mild than the flu, as they are saying not to have babies until 2018 anyway?

        • Avinalaff

          Zika is a diversion – check out the info on those Brazilian women being given the DPT vaccine whilst pregnant in the 10 month lead up to these births. The DPT vaccine has no safety data for use on pregnant women, but they do now. Zika virus has existed for 70 years prior to this event and never caused this before. What is new is that the women all got the DPT whilst pregnant. It is a diversion, just like Polio

          • Nick Sanders
          • Rachele Willoughby

            Polio was a diversion? Sorry, I’m just trying to picture this. Like government agents sneaking through open bedroom windows in the dark, paralyzing little kids…

            It was a much simpler time.

          • Charybdis

            Yes, in a different continent. It is new to Brazil, so *no one* has any immunity to it. Remember your history, please. When the Europeans came to the New World, they brought all sorts of diseases with them, things that they had had and developed immunity to, but the Native Americans/South Americans had no immunity as they had never been exposed. That ended badly for the Native Americans.

            And, again. It is the TDaP that is given to people over 7 years old, including pregnant women; not the DTaP.

            Look up a Green Fish post. They give a lovely explanation of this whole thing.

      • Avinalaff

        The risk to pregnant women for chickenpox infection is absolutely minimal, you are projecting a disproportionate risk stat to make a flawed point.

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          And I grew up when we all got chicken pox, my kids all got chicken pox, adults never got infected! Everyone was well and truly immune by about age 8. Never ever heard of avoiding adults so they didnt catch chicken pox! Of course we stayed home, if parents wanted their kids to catch it, they sent them around to play… Gosh we certainly were not sick in bed or anything! And best thing, no one got shingles!

          • DaisyGrrl

            When chicken pox went round my neighbourhood, an infant developed encephalitis as a complication from chicken pox. He was hospitalized for quite a while, and the two biggest worries were whether he would survive, and whether he would sustain permanent brain damage.
            Chicken pox is not a joke and I know adults who never got the disease as children. They were told to stay away from children who were ill.

          • Rachele Willoughby

            I grew up when we all got the chicken pox too! Funny, my dad got it right along with us. Now, we can argue all day about what makes an “adult” and whether or not he really was (or is) one but he *was* 23 at the time.

          • Azuran

            My uncle got shingles. He’s 80 and was never vaccinated for chickenpox or shingles.
            Also, you might want to check out real chickenpox statistic. The actual rate of exposure is 90% at 12 years old. not 100% at 8

          • Charybdis

            I had chickenpox. In my hair, under my fingernails, everywhere.

            I also had an outbreak of shingles a few years ago and I’m not old enough for the shingles vaccine. Mom and Dad both had chickenpox as kids and have both had episodes of shingles.

            Your point, exactly?

        • Nick Sanders

          Prove it.

        • Azuran

          I never talked about chickenpox in pregnancy. I simply used it as an example that en endemic disease does not equal 100% of protected adults

        • yugaya

          Minimal risk to pregnant women? You idiot: “Pregnant women who get chickenpox are at risk for serious complications. For example, 10-20% of pregnant women who get chickenpox develop pneumonia, with the chance of death as high as 40%.

          If a pregnant woman gets chickenpox while in the first or early second trimester of pregnancy, there is a small chance (0.4 – 2.0%) that the baby could be born with birth defects known as “congenital varicella syndrome.” Babies born with congenital varicella syndrome may be of low birthweight and have scarring of the skin and problems with arms, legs, brain, and eyes.

          Newborns whose mothers develop chickenpox rash
          from 5 days before to 2 days after delivery are at risk for chickenpox shortly after birth, with the chance of death as high as 30%.” http://www.cdc.gov/pregnancy/infections-chickenpox.html

    • demodocus

      Rubella was endemic when and where MIL was a kid. Either she didn’t develop much immunity or she never caught it until she was pregnant with kid #1. Fortunately, he’s only blind from birth.

  • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

    Oh yeah, they already have a vaccine that prevents zika causing microcephaly, called water……………….. the microcephaly will stop come July, they removed the vaccine end of December………… still got all those vaccine damaged babies coming………… Or if you are a gynaecologist, you might be needed for all the vaccine damaged babies that mothers may be forced to terminate……………. Viva Brazil!

    • DaisyGrrl

      Abortion is illegal in Brazil with exceptions only for rape and to save the mother’s life. While there are those pushing for changes in the law, virtually no one will be terminating their pregnancy due to this.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Thanks DaisyFrrl……….So sad………. well there will be 1200 a month until July………………… perhaps that is why it is so obvious the damage…… In USA, vaccinated women, would have scans, and would mostly terminate, but seeing as for the same amount of births, per year, Brazil only had 150 of these babies per year, but USA as like 1500 (?) or more…….. it would not be so noticed in USA< as the obvious vaccine damage. (and in USA it is suggested, not pushed).

        • Megan

          Just curious, why do you believe that this epidemic of microcephaly has only happened in northeastern Brazil when Tdap has been administered to pregnant women in many nations for years now, (including the US)?

  • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

    Hilarious, 3,000 cases since July, be specific Amy, The first were end of October………… 4,000 cases since 1st November! Before that? about 10 a year? More than 20 times usualy rate? Um lot more than that “””” It hasn’t been definitively established as the cause of the epidemic of microcephaly in Brazil, but there is considerable evidence pointing in that direction; “”” um like zero evidence pointing in that direction? Be honest here 2 had signs of zika, probably 5 had signs of infulenza, 2 has signs of cp… etc etc….. HOWEVER 4,000 OF 4,000 got dtap in utero………. Can you see the elephant, totally ignored, for some strange reason?

    Your quote…..””Do you think we should just let everyone get infected because natural immunity is better than anything a vaccine could produce? Are you willing to risk the health of your unborn babies rather than try to create a vaccine to protect them?””” a vaccine for what?????? A vaccine CAUSED THIS………… I think your credibility as a scientist/doctor.gynaecologist? just went out the window……….. or you need training in pathology, like I have.

    • Megan

      If you really worked in the field, you’d know that Dtap and Tdap are two different vaccines. Dtap is only given to children up to age 7. Adults get Tdap.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        forgive me, I dont give the vaccines, ………………I will be specific then the failed vaccine is :: the acelluar pertussis vaccine, in general use since mid 1990s…………. the same vaccine, in a lot of different mixes…… Dtap dtap or Tdap…….. In this instance in Brazil, the mix was the GSK mix, manufactured in pernumbucco (?) on licence. Doesnt matter if adults get it, or kids, the basic same acellular pertussis vaccine: the vaccine fails in EVERYONE after 10 years (thank god!)……… then no more vaccinated carriers…… The average length of time the vaccine actually works is 2 years. Just stop the vaccinations, NO MORE VACCINATED CARRIERS, NO MORE BABY DEATHS, NO NEED TO VACCINATE BABIES IN A WEIRD EXPERIMENT, BEFORE BIRTH.

        • demodocus

          Lots more blind/deaf babies due to rubella?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Lots of dead kids from measles and pneumonia from the immunosuppression that measles causes even after recovery.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      You cannot even make a coherent sentence and you are telling people to they need training in pathology? You are lost

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        You score two. (See my how to be a troll above) You can do better. 1. Mock the person and; 2. also ask a question. Well done, in only two sentences!

        A gynaecologist knows as much about microbiology, as I do about gynaecology. For this writer to seriously expect credibility for this nonsense piece of writing, is beyond me.

        • Megan

          What about all the commenters here? Are you assuming they don’t know anything about microbiology or immunology? As Bofa always says, remember Pablo’s first law of the internet…

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Sorry, you are a much better troll than me. I concede.

        • Who?

          Everyone’s been mocking you for hours.

          If you’re too stupid to pick that up, well…

          Hope you could spare that ellipsis!

      • yugaya

        She claims to be a pathologist. On her facebook page she is ( and nowhere else) : ” I am a Pathologist, a Chemical Analyst, and a Horticulturalist…”

        https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10152975019336857

    • Dagfinn Klausen

      Dear Angela,
      There is now a test for Zika Virus available from Germany. As Tdap vaccine is mandatory for pregnant Women in Brazil, so should this test be, so that any correlation between Zika and microcephaly could be properly documented. If this is not recommended by WHO, we can be quite sure that the vaccine is the suspected cause.
      https://www.rt.com/news/330737-zika-virus-test-germany/

      By the way, are You aware that Zika Virus is registered Trademark of Rockefeller Foundation, and is available for sale on Internet?
      https://www.lgcstandards-atcc.org/Products/All/VR-84.aspx?slp=1#history

      What I, personally, expect is that WHO will recommend mandatory test for all travelers (royalty to Rockefellers), until there is a vaccine for Zika Virus (more royalty), and last but not least there will be political pressure to allow abortion in Brazil, which today is illegal.

  • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

    In 2010, outbreaks of pertussis happened worldwide. 1996 (new vaccine accellular pertussis) + 4 (birth + 4 years of jabs) + 10 years (100% failure of vaccine) = Wow 2010………………. Total vaccine failure. Worse, all the vaccinated kids tested for pertussis, who showed no symptoms, were found to be carriers, spreading the disease, everywhere. What to do? cant bring back old vaccine, too many side effects. Try revaccinating everone around a newborn (cocooning theory), well, all the mums and dads, whose vaccine had totally failed, and they were no longer carriers, suddently got a rejab, and they could be vaccinated carriers again…. so now not only siblings but mums and dads (vaccinated, and fine), were giving their own babies pertussis (which they carry in their throats, without getting ill themselves). FAIL, MORE BABY DEATHS. Next, what to do? Cant vaccinate babies at birth, as it kill them………….. So the greatest medical test in history, lets vaccinated babies, before birth………… So vaccines arrive Brazil May, pregnant women all get vaccinate, BANG november 1200 a month vaccine damaged babies…………
    all the references are on my fb page
    Yes I work in the field, I used to believe in vaccines, but damn, WHEN ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO TO STOP INFANT PERTUSSIS, WAS TO STOP USING THE FAILED VACCINE, and instead murder and deform so many………… Yes pharma, are satan themselves. Every pharma company has been fined for fraud, some many times over, all in the last three years…………. And people still trust them? 4,000 babies now, all vaccinated at 20 weeks gestation with dtap, 2 out of 4,000 apparently had a zika infection? Anyone spote the elephant in the house?

    • yugaya

      “Yes I work in the field”

      Bwahahahahaha. Sure you do. You clearly “do your own research” into vaccines.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Albany, Western Australia, first outbreak of whooping cough en masse in this city. I ran the Western Diagnostics Collection Centre in the City centre. The doctors began sending the kids in for testing, because they had been coughing for an average of over 4-6 weeks. The doctors at first did not suspect whooping cough AS ALL THE VICTIMS WERE FULLY VACCINATED, WITH THE ACELLULAR PERTUSSI VACCINE. The kids had been going to school out and about for an average of 6 weeks, no one over 12 got sick (ie vaccines pre 1998, obviously worked, yes the whole cell vaccine, used previously)………. No one under 6 got sick, I believe the vaccines are given from 2 months to about age 4. Outcome of these observations, and further testing, by the health department, showed that at full vaccination, the acellular pertussis vaccine gives immunity to 8 out of 10, after five years, only 3.5 are still immune, due to vaccine, after 10 years, it is 100% falure IN EVERYONE. Thus 1998 (birth) + 4 years last vaccine, plus 8 years == near 100% of all the kids who got born 1998 all had pertussis, aged 12 plus a smattering of younger kids. Luckily no babies got infected. so that is my research, pure observation, plus positive pathology tests, on the kids who all had pertussis, all fully vaccinated.
        Worse, was the discover after further testing, that kids still with vaccine immunity, were in fact, not ill BUT CARRYING THE BACTERIA IN THEIR THROAT AND SPREADING INT. This they do for about 8 weeks, just dont have any signs of illness…………….. worse, they dont just do this ONCE< they do it, over and over, so the carriers, keep infecting other carriers, infection goes round and round, and everytime the they are exposed, they again carry the illness and spread it for another 8 weeks…………… Has no one noticed? There are more baby deaths now, due to the vaccine failures, than ever before in recorded history…. I believe 30,000 had pertussis last year USA? You can say another 30,000 would have become carriers, no symptoms, and another 30,000 wouldnt have been ill enough to even know they had pertussis………. (After all, the power of the myth, that the vaccine protects them, is just that)…….

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          Oh, date was 2010…………… All they had to do was stop vaccinating, what did they do, revaccinate everyone, so now, in 2016, the revaccinated ones born around 1998, who no longer could be carriers, as the vaccine had long since failed, AGAIN become carriers, so now mothers and fathers, no symptoms, infecting their own babies….. Blaming a mythical non vaccinated lurker in the corridors of maternity> How absurd.

          • yugaya

            Like I said – bwahahahahahaha: ” I am a Pathologist, a Chemical Analyst, and a Horticulturalist…”

            https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10152975019336857

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Oooh. I see she’s also into AIDS conspiracy theories, chemtrails, homophobia, and…actually, I have no idea what the bit about Zoloft is all about. Plus she blames Merck for Zoloft, a drug manufactured by Pfizer, which I don’t get, but at that point, whatever. And that was just in one short FB post.

          • yugaya

            Yeah she is a bingo.

          • Nick Sanders

            On multiple cards, it sounds like.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Not sure she’s playing with a full deck.

          • Megan

            Then we are definitely trying too hard…

          • Charybdis

            Because some immunity wanes over time does not mean the vaccination has failed. This is why we get booster shots. I just got my TDaP booster, as it had been 10 years since my last one. I had to get a second Hep B series, since my titers had dropped too low.

            It seems to be all or nothing with you folks. One vaccination means protection FOREVER. If the immunity wanes over time (titers drop), then the vaccine has “failed”. Kind of like a commercial here: “if one piece of kale could prevent heart disease forever, or if one sit up could lower blood pressure permanently…” do it once, never have to do it again as the benefits are immediate and permanent.

            Right. Teh crazee and teh ignoranz is burning.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Note that “natural” immunity to many diseases fades over time as well. Before the vaccine, pertussis was not considered a “one and done” illness but rather something that a child got again and again.

          • Charybdis

            True. A strike against their beloved “natural immunity is better, stronger and full of magic sparkles” tenet.

          • Megan

            I’m trying to think of any treatment, “natural” or otherwise that is a one time deal and works forever….

          • Nick Sanders

            Amputation?

          • DaisyGrrl

            If I ever get appendicitis again, they removed the wrong thing.

          • Roadstergal

            Even vasectomy isn’t 100%.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    There is a corporate conspiracy causing the microcephaly cases in South America, but it’s not vaccine manufacturers. It’s oil companies. And car companies. And every other company–including, I suppose, pharma–that contributes to global warming. Warmer weather=more mosquitoes=greater spread of mosquito borne diseases. If the anti-vaxxers really want to wake up and stop being sheeple, they’ll start attacking global warming, not wasting their time on a non-existent association and a series of disproven claim about vaccines.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      2 out of 4,000 babies had zika…………. 4,000 of 4,000 were part of a trial to vaccinate them before birth, with a vaccine, that given at birth kills them……….. Helllooooo??? I aint an antivaxxer, I am pro truth, and when a vaccine fails so badly, that all the outbreaks, and baby deaths, due to whooping cough, ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF A CRAP VACCINE…………… I dont shove my head in the sand. 1200 babies per month, same deformity, all got dtap before 20 weeks gestation???????? All the reports, real scientific reports, including FDA, and CDC, and Brazil Health, all on the net.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Um, source, please? If “all the reports” are on the net and you’ve read them, surely it couldn’t be too much trouble to cite them?

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm final paragraph the only part of direct relevance that eveyone can understand “”individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.”””” This paper was written end of 2013.
          note my clear name, and reference to fb……. all my stuff is listed on my timeline there………. but if you dont do facebook, will list some here.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I don’t think you quite understood your source. First, the conclusion was based on an animal model, albeit another primate. Second, the animals in question who received the acellular vaccine cleared the bacteria within 6 weeks, as opposed to the 3 weeks that an animal that received the whole cell vaccine. The trade off here is the potential for more reactions with the cellular vaccine versus the probably longer clearance with acellular. There’s an interesting argument to be had about the risk/benefit ratio of each, but the answer is clearly NOT that either vaccine is not protective. Third, the press release explicitly mentions a number of reasons that the increase in pertussis cases may be occurring, including increased reporting/recognition. Another problem is likely that in the past adults were not vaccinated and if there is waning immunity, which it appears that there is, adults can harbor and pass the bacteria to infants. This is why pertussis has been added back to the adult vaccination schedule. Not explicitly mentioned but clearly a factor is the decreased rate of vaccination during childhood, but it is clearly a factor as well.

            And I’m sorry, but your facebook page is not a credible source.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Strange that, 4 Western countries, NZ, Australia, UK, Canada, etc all had thousands of pathology reports, real people, real tests, thousands and thousands…….. what did FDA do with this urgent information,,,,,,,,, waited three years, scraped up some funding and bought some baboons…………… Yes USA< you are friggin baboons. And very clever, mark it "'press release" then forget to release it………….. As for testing how great the whole cell was, why? that got banned 20 years ago………. just to muddy the water perhaps Clear as a crystal is the final paragraph """"""""""""individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.""""""""""" As for my fb not being a credible source, if you dont believe your own FDA, who do you believe.
            That paragraph is VERY, VERY CLEAR. Only a fool, tries to interpret that in any other way. THOSE VACCINATED, EVEN THOUGH PROTECTED, BECOME INFECTED WITH BACTERIA WITHOUT GETTING SICK, AND SPREAD IT TO BABIES??? hELLOOOO??? ANYONE HOMMMME????

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So you deliberately, as your only link supporting your claims, used the one group that is in on the conspiracy and provides misleading information? Um…okay. If Australia has clearer data why didn’t you cite it? Or data from the UK or Canada or one of the other mysterious “western countries” you mention?

            I more or less believe “my own” FDA. (I love the claim that it’s mine for a number of reasons that wouldn’t be funny to anyone else.) However, I don’t believe your conclusions from your misreading of the work. The paragraph at the end of the statement is their conclusions, which are, appropriately, conservative. The conservative approach is to assume that there is slower clearance of the bacteria with use of the acellular vaccine and counsel people to make sure that they are at least 6 weeks out from vaccination before being exposed to infants who have not completed their vaccination series.

            Also, what does this have to do with microcephaly? Nothing you have presented so far has in the least supported the claim that the DTaP causes microcephaly?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Ah, this is where it gets interesting, I will continue the sequence of events/
            2010 outbreaks of pertussis, in fully vaccinated children, in 4 or 5 Western nations (inc USA).
            Feb 2013, CDC recommend revaccinating anyone likely to be around a newborn. This is called cocoon theory. More baby deaths, theory did not work. Increased the number of vaccinated carriers.
            October 2013? FDA complete the Baboon Study, but somehow dont release it to the press.
            They have now absolute proof, that those vaccinated, when exposed to pertussis, carry it for weeks, and spread it, without any signs of illness (oops that is why revaccinating people, actually created more carriers).
            2014, rise of pertussis in Brazil (and everywhere else).
            Brazil decides that all pregnant women should get the vaccine. A manufacturer in Parmburccco (?) (GSK vaccine is chosen), produces the vaccine, and women begin getting vaccinated in May 2015.

            Now why, suddenly decide to vaccinate pregnant women, with a vaccine, even the manufacturer very clearly states, has not be tested in pregnancy, and should not be used, unless necessary (UMMM?? all pregnant women get it?)……… why do this??
            KNOWN: anyone vaccinated in last 10 years, can and will be a carrier if exposed to pertussis. And a pertussis outbreak in Brazil?
            Newborn babies can not be vaccinated as it kills them.
            Mothers can not pass “”vaccine””antibodies onto their own offspring, unlike real antibodies.
            Every baby being born, therefore can catch pertussis from anyone vaccinated, but is able to get protection from own mothers maternal antibodies or breastmilk
            If a vaccine kills newborn babies, if given at birth, like what did they expect to happen vaccinating them before 20 weeks gestation? Miscarriage, or if the vaccine thing works, NO ONE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT THE VACCINATED ARE THE ONES SPREADING PERTUSSIS.
            Sad thing? if the pharma, and CDC, and FDA, WHO, instead of bureaucratic bumbling, had just stopped vaccinating with this failed vaccine in 2010. By now, only 3 out of every 10 vaccinated, would still be capable of being carriers, in another 5 years NO VACCINATED CARRIERS…………….. Damn no profit in admitting your vaccine is an abysmal failure, and causing the biggest outbreaks of pertussis, and baby deaths, in history.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            First, only someone who did not understand how medical research worked would call a non-human animal study “absolute proof” of anything. Second, the reason the number of cases is going up is multifactoral, including greater recognition and more people failing to vaccinate. Third, you didn’t even slightly address the question: What evidence do you have that the DTaP or any other vaccine has the slightest thing to do with microcephaly?

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          Atypical vanishing white matter disease with microcephaly and hepatosplenomegaly provoked after diphtheria pertussis tetanus vaccination

          Article type: Research Article

          Authors: . Gowda, Vykuntaraju K | Vignesh, Sukanya | V. Madivala, Bhaskar | Mamatha, | Prahalad Kumar, | Premalatha Ramaswamy and, | Sarala H. Gowda,

          Affiliations: Department of Pediatric Neurology, Indira Gandhi Institute of Child Health, Bangalore, Karnataka, India | Department of Pediatrics,drknvraju@hotmail.com, drknvraju@yahoo.co.in

          Abstract: Vanishing white matter (VWM) disease is a rare leukoencephalopathy. Normal development in early childhood with regression of milestones after trauma or infection is typical clinical presentation. We are reporting a child with atypical VWM disease. A 1.5-year-old female child presented with fever followed by altered sensorium and convulsions following first booster dose of diphtheria pertussis tetanus vaccination. Her development was normal till 1 yr of age. Her weight and head size were below 3 standard deviations. She had hepatosplenomegaly. Her routine investigations including cerebrospinal fluid examination were normal. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of brain shows diffuse white matter signals changes (hyperintensity on T2-weighted and hypointensity on T1-weighted images) involving the subcortical “U” fibers sparing basal ganglia.Based on MRI findings we diagnosed as VWM disease.

          Keywords: Vanishing white matter disease, whole cell DPT vaccine, hepatosplenomegaly, microcephaly

          DOI: 10.3233/JPN-140659

          Journal: Journal of Pediatric Neurology, vol. 12, no. 3, pp. 167-170, 2014

          Received 21 August 2014

          |

          Accepted 21 August 2014

          |

          Published 2014

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            PubMed returns “no results” when these authors are entered. Furthermore, the claim that it was received and accepted on the same day is ridiculous. That is impossible for a peer reviewed journal. Something went wrong in your attempt to provide a reference.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Also, VWMD is a genetic disorder. More rapid degeneration can be provoked by fever, so in principle a bad vaccine reaction could provoke a worsening, but a full blown infection with an active pathologic organism would be far more likely to.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Well apparently in the article I quoted the child got it after dtap vaccination. Oh well I agree all the microcephaly in Brazil is obviously not genetic, so cant be VWMD, just interesting that the specific patient in that reference was fine, until after she got dtap vaccination.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Except that you didn’t quote the article, you posted the abstract with no further comments. And the abstract can not be found in PubMed which means either it was not published in a peer reviewed journal or you made a mistake when you copied the reference. I am entirely willing to believe that you made a transcription error and I’m certainly not going to judge you for that, but I would like a legitimate link to a peer reviewed article before taking the claim in the least seriously.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        https://idsent.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/tdap-vaccinations-for-all-pregnant-women-in-brazil-mandated-in-late-2014/

        dap Vaccinations for All Pregnant Women in Brazil Mandated in Late 2014

        “The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) immunization schedule was updated in January, 2013 to recommend that a dose of Tdap vaccine be administered to all pregnant women during each pregnancy whether or not they have received the vaccine previously.

        … There have not been definitive studies on the efficacy and safety of this vaccine. … The Tdap vaccine contains aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 and may contain traces of thimerosal. Polysorbate 80 (also known as Tween 80) has been shown to cause infertility in animals.

        Parenteral injection of aluminum has been shown to cause neurotoxicity. Thimerosal contains 50% mercury by weight. Mercury is a known neurotoxin and carcinogen. Formaldehyde is a human carcinogen and highly toxic to all animals.

        … Is it safe to infect Tdap in a pregnant female? Nobody knows. Again, no studies have been done to ensure that the vaccine is safe.”

        ― David Brownstein, MD

        https://idsent.wordpress.com/2016/01/23/jumping-the-gun-on-the-zika-microcephaly-connection/

        https://idsent.wordpress.com/

        https://idsent.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/tdap-vaccinations-for-all-pregnant-women-in-brazil-mandated-in-late-2014/

  • Kaja Knudsen

    It’s not the Zika-virus causing the birth defects. It’s probably the new vaccine that was introduced to pregnant women. The zika-virus has been around for 70 years, never caused any birth defects in new born babies.

    • Who?

      Read the several other comments to the same effect by your anti-vax buddies, and the responses-at this point we’re pretty much amusing ourselves-collect your hat and pants at the door, and go and waste someone else’s time.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Sorry I dont understand what you are saying Who? What do you believe is causing all the birth defects? Vaccine damage, pollution, or mossies?

        • Charybdis

          I urge you to find Green Fish’s excellent post on this. Green Fish, in an extraordinarily patient manner, posted, re-posted and re-posted ad nauseum about this. It is an excellent summary. Try that first. Then, please continue to spout your nonsense.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      The zika-virus has been around for 70 years

      Well, sort of. It’s true that it was first identified 70 years ago, but at that time it was a rare virus found only in one part of the world. Zika is an “emerging virus” meaning its range is spreading. It only reached South America in the 2010s. (Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26684466)

      Few human cases were reported prior to 2007 and neurologic symptoms including GBS and microcephaly have been reported since the upswing in cases.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        sorry you link doesnt work, you may need to try posting it again………… there have been many human cases reported since 1947, when zika was first isolated, no deaths, no microcephaly………… Yes GBS and microcephaly, both vaccine injuries………. all reported post October 2015, NONE reported prior to this……….. Vaccines were given starting May 2015. Anyone with references that prove differently, I would appreciate the link……….. just fb them to me, if it doesnt work here……….. Or email even angelaoffer@hotmail.com Much appreciated 🙂

        • Megan

          GBS is a vaccine injury???

          • Charybdis

            On what planet?
            Edited to add that this is in response to the original statement that GBS is a vaccine injury, not to Megan.

          • Megan

            On Angela’s planet, apparently…

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            I forgot troll technique when desperate, list yourself as another name, and suddenly back up yourself in everything you say…………… ahaha! I seen it all before, disquis is brilliant for that. Had one person, trying to be three once, they got muddled up and forgot which alias they were using…. so Hello Charybdis / Megan alias

          • Megan

            I can assure you we are different people which can easily be verified by the moderator by checking our IP addresses.

          • demodocus

            We’re all Dr. Amy under different accounts, so of course I, i mean *she*, will say we’re different people.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m Dr Amy! And so’s my wife!

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            *stands up*

          • Charybdis

            Um, we are two different people. And you are exhibiting trollish behavior. So, nice try.

          • demodocus

            Megan and Charybdis are both regulars, so how are *they* trolling when you’re the newbie here?

          • Megan

            Oh you know what? I just realized she may have meant Guillan-Barre. I thought she was talking about Group B Strep. Seeing as this is an obstetrics blog…

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            OK if it isnt vaccine damage, what causes it, when did it first apprear in the medical literature? Give me some references. The research will do you good.

          • Megan

            Are you referring to Gullian-Barre or group B strep? The abbreviation can be for both.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            1859, according to wikipedia, backed by the following reference: https://books.google.ca/books?id=rwxAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA486#v=onepage&q&f=false

            Few vaccines used in 1859.

          • Charybdis

            And a nice cup of tea and a lie down will do you good.

            GBS is (at least here on this site) taken to mean Group B Strep as a default understanding. If you mean Guillian-Barre Syndrome, please spell that out. Because Guillian-Barre IS a possible side effect of some vaccinations.

          • Megan

            Though the most common cause of Guillain-Barre is actually infections themselves.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Back in the early 70s, the Swine Flu vaccine was pulled because it was found to be associated with Guillain-Barre syndrome. The link was solidly established.

            Quiz time:
            How many total cases of Guillain-Barre were caused by the Swine flu vaccine:
            a) less than 50
            b) 50 – 100
            c) 100 – 250
            d) 250 – 1000
            e) more than 1000

            (I’ve done this quiz before, so if you’ve seen the answer, please don’t tell)

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Tsk. You’re absolutely right. Embarrassing formatting error on my part. Try this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26684466

    • yugaya

      We should go through all the comments and count how many idiots popped in to grace us with that same antivaxx nonsense. Scroll down, you may learn something for real. Like the fact that the new vaccine is not new at all, that Zika is new in that region and that microcephaly caused by that and similar viruses is well documented.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Hello yugaya please, do tell me where you got any references to microcephaly being caused by zika? It may well change my opinion, if you can find such a study……….. I have been unable to find any, anywhere. Even the recent reports about zika, state that there is no clear evidence zika is the culprit………… All the reports I have read, say Zika causes a mild illness in about 1 out of 5 who contract it, never ever caused any microcephaly anywhere. Some believe the microcephaly is caused by the fact Brazil uses 20% of the worlds pesticides, many of which are banned everywhere else in the world……..
        but if it was a mossie, or pollution, strange how all the mycrocephaly babies had vaccines given while in utero….. Brazil started this in May, when the vaccines arrived…… first babies like none, then BAM 1200 a month……….. please explain YOUR theory, how zika mossies, managed to infect all these 1200 babies each month beginning in May?
        Now a vaccine, to prevent vaccine damage? Interesting.

        • yugaya

          Try CDC and local health authorities in Brazil for the most current and factual information. Although all of the information they are painstaikingly gathering and all of the expert surveillance of this that is going on at the moment is wasted on an antiaxxer idiot of your caliber.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      Absolutely………. I should have seen this coming! I work in pathology, I tested lots and lots of kids, during first pertussis (whooping cough) outbreaks in 2010. dont need to be a rocket scientist, all were aged 6-12 all fully vaccinated………. ie the old vaccine of pre 1998 worked .. these children all born from 1998 onwards, got the new acellular vaccine. Other obvious thing, it fails in EVERYONE after0-10 years. So 1998 (born) + 4-6 (last vaccine for wc) + 5-10(failed in near 100%)………. yep the first kids with whooping cough… Vaccine failures, 2010. All the kids with first trial vaccine + many other failures = outbreaks. Worse, the Western Australian Health Department actually did throat swabs, and tested the fully vaccinated kids WHO DID NOT HAVE PERTUSSIS (WC)………. They were all healthy BUT CARRYING THE DISEASE IN THEIR THROATS, SPREADING IT, ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPTOMS……….
      Yes, siblings with no symptoms, whatsoever, were infecting the newborn babies in their families.
      What did GSK, Sanofi Pasteur do? 1. Stop vaccinating, and all vaccinated carriers would be gone in about 5 years….. 2. Try jabbing everyone around a newborn to see if that would work? Yep they tried number 2, which by 2016, means that the vaccinated parents, whose vaccine had long since failed, and could no longer ve a symptomless carrier, AGAIN BECAME SYMTOMLESS CARRIERS…………….. MORE BABY DEATHS!
      Next, oh shit moment…………………… what do we do “”cocooning “”didnt work” abysmal failure, now MORE vaccinated carriers.
      Cant vaccinate babies at birth, as it kills them…………….. They could of course just stop vaccinating with failed vaccine? No, they started vaccinating babies BEFORE BIRTH< so they could not get whooping cough from their own mothers, fathers, siblings, and any other family member, who had been vaccinated in about last 5 years. Well what do you expect giving babies in utero, a vaccine that kills them at birth? Few deaths, ah, call it miscarriage……….. they didnt expect all these poor vaccine damaged babies………..
      Brazil, first big scientific run, all the women got the vaccine in May onwards…………. BAng, October 1200 vaccine damaged babies per month…………………. Zika? hilarious, how could a mossie, suddenly infect everyone in the same month? and of course, despite seasons, keep infecting 1200 babies per month, until they all will be born by end July………. (they withdrew the suspect vaccine in December)…… ie all the vaccinated mothers now, will have given birth by July…………

      I never believed in Satan, I do now, it is called profit hungry, murdering pharma companies, who blame a damn mosquito. Wonder if the mothers get a refund on the failed vaccine?

      • momofone

        I’m curious about your work in pathology. What exactly do you do?

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          While working for Western Diagnostics I took the tests, from blood tests, to skin scrapings, to throat swabs, all of that. In State Health, I worked in microbiology, haematology, and also the usual phlebotomy collections and other samples. Sometimes worked in biochemistry……………. What other information do you need, anything specific? In all the time I worked there, never saw any whooping cough, until 2010………. seemed all the kids aged 6-12 had it…… And yourself, what do you do?

          • momofone

            So you’re a phlebotomist?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Funny how much fudging you can do.

            I mean I can say the same things. I work in pathology! And hematology! And infection control! And microbiology! And pharmacology!

            …except that I’m just a registrar with no credentials taking CNA classes, the most basic of healthcare classes. I put the pathology reports into the electronic medical record system so they can be tracked, attached to the patient, and billed. I just copy exactly what’s on the paper into the correct fields. I don’t need to know what it means.

            I also register people for lab work. So technically I’m in hematology too! Except I do the same thing as above and it’s all clerical work and primarily demographic verification.

            I’m learning how to do proper hand washing, patient bathing, and bed care in my CNA classes. I’m totally in infection control and microbiology!

            So I don’t really take the “I work in the field!” seriously either. Not without licensure, certification, or at least being able to specifically state which of those they hold. And a quick Google search of her name yields no results except blog posts and restaurant reviews. Even CNAs have their names entered I to a state database in the US. Maybe she should address that “elephant in the house” as she put it.

            I don’t know anything about medicine on a professional level. You want insight into how a good electronic medical record system works and what that huge consent form says and means, I’m your girl. Actual lab experience? I followed a very specific set of steps to help measure nitrogen content and fecal coliform bacteria in water samples in high school and couldn’t tell you a damn thing about the molecular processes. I know nothing outside of what I can learn from books that I’d like to someday refine in actual classes. But until then, I’m just a clerical worker with an interest in medicine.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Hello momofone, I mean DelphiniumFalcon Why the savagery? All that 7 paragraphs of venom, and you just suddently arrived on the thread??? Hilarious! Oh I’m a chemical analysist too, fertilizer and water analysis…………. As for the poo in the water sample,ok if you really did that in high school, tell me how to tested it?

          • momofone

            I can assure you that DelphiniumFalcon and I are not the same person, but I’m honored that you’d get us confused.

          • demodocus

            No, no, no, no. It’s Delphi-Megan-Who?, Mariana-Charybidis-Nick, and Dem-Bofa-Yugaya! Get it straight. Sigh. So hard to teach newbies who wander onto our blog who’s who.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            hello alias no 3. how ya going demodocus? you been lurking here for 23 minutes, ah so it is YOUR BLOG….. sorry for intruding! 🙂 What is your view on microcephaly in Brazil?

          • Megan

            Funny, her Disqus posting history shows she’s been commenting on this site for at least months, and on this article alone for days.

          • Azuran

            and I leave for 1 hour to do some cleaning and I come back to this….Can’t they manage intelligent discussion for like 5 minutes before accusing us to be fake pharma shill aliases?

          • Megan

            Oh yeah, not only are we shills but we’re all the same shill!

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            …your rather extraordinary lack of reading comprehension stretches my already tenuous suspension of disbelief that you’ve been involved in anything more complex than directing crowds when it comes to health care work. Even then I have serious doubts regarding your capability to do that.

          • demodocus

            I’ve been a regular commenter for months, and a regular lurker who didn’t say anything for a couple years before that. You’re the one who wandered in here (a blog about obstetrics) to tell the regulars how stupid we all are and how we’re really just one or two people.

          • BeatriceC

            I’m kinda sad I got left out of that string.

            Of course, I tend to shy away from confrontation and haven’t had much time to devote to the internet in the last few days, so I suppose that might have something to do with me not being a real part of this beyond-epic length comment section.

          • demodocus

            Sorry, B, I knew we had a 4th shill. Need at least 1 on duty all day, after all 😉

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            …aaaaaand I’m gonna pull out this old chestnut. Try actually reading my post again. Slowly. Especially the part where I said just because I performed the tests doesn’t mean I have any inkling of how they work. A lesson you should learn and well.

            And I’ve been on this thread for days. And this site for I think about a year now. Your know that if you weren’t so absorbed in your own hero narrative that only you are seeing yourself as the brave victim beset by such awful trolls. But you’re not. You’re a stunningly effective example of the Dunning Krueger effect. If I want to know about lab procedures, I wouldn’t be asking you. I’d wait for Roadstergal or someone similarly experienced in lab work beyond looking through the windows and using a point and shoot test that requires zero skill or understanding.

            And why so much venom? Because people in my family died from small pox and measles. Young. One from small pox at only a few weeks old around 1903 in the rural west, far from any “interventions.” On ky dad’s side my grandfather had mumps at 19 and believed he was likely infertile. My mom and dad were terrified of polio as small children. My mom’s sister had meningitis as a small child and went from 20/20 vision to legally blind practically over night. My mom has horrible scarring from the chicken pox that she caught as a teenager in the 1970s. She had so many pox so close together my grandparents were initially afraid she’d somehow contracted small pox and was going to die. Forty years later and she’s still self conscious and trying to even out her skin tone with the depigmented areas. And if it weren’t for people like you, my future children would only be reading about polio, measles, and diphtheria in history books as diseases of the past. So, yeah, I get a little snippy with people like you who talk out of their ass about things they have never experienced. But please continue to make an idiot out of yourself so I can be thankful that even with the fears of the risk/benefit ratio of vaccines my family has been in support of not seeing another family member injured or dead from a disease they could prevent.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6565df89fde1a2a10d2eb91cf69623ec442a297f69751f090f5476f1c5fbfedb.jpg

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            You said you followed the steps, finding out if the water had coliforms in it, do you not remember, if you had to use a test tube? Did you use a bunsen burner? Do you remember if you did the test yourself? You told me you knew the steps………. In ever asked you to explain anything….. if you had ever done the steps, as you claim, surely you would remember something….. you remembered it was coliforms in water……….. where did the water come from????….. If you cant even remember that, you are full of bs, just as the old bs about how everyone in your family would all be dead and disabled from polio by now…………. fraud, ABYSMAL FRAUD, OUT AND OUT FRAUD. So enjoy your rants, they are all about as likely as you testing coliforms in water……………the lengths that pharma trolls go to, is absurd……………..

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            It involved prepackaged premixed chemicals, a Bunsen burner, agar plates, and I was fourteen.

            That does not a water treatment specialist make. Which is entirely my point if you had any ability to comprehend writing that isn’t your own.

            And for the love of all things sacred and holy would it kill you to type like an adult with proper spacing and puntuation? Attempting to read your posts is harder than reading L337 speak back in the early 2000s.

            Fuck, and they say autistics like myself have a damaged theory of mind. I’m not entirely convinced you don’t subscribe to the philosophy of metaphysical solipsism.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Can I cut and save… your story is so,so, well amazing. All that death, disease and destruction in one family…………especially the chicken pox bit, never ever heard of anyone being so scarred, can you post a picture? do tell me where the small pox was in 1903? Someone had mumps at 19, everyone in that era usually got mumps as young children, how come he didnt get it as a child? and believed he was infertile, was he? Oh no he couldnt have been, he was your grandfather 🙂 Sorry if I am a weee bit skeptical….. People now get mumps at age 19 etc, as they all get the mumps vaccine as kids, and it wears off, after a few years, (thats why Merck got fined so much for the fraud)..Mom and dad terrified of polio? everyone was, but now we have Life support, dont need iron lungs anymore……my goodness, no one died of the flu ? You forgot to list that deadly disease. And an aunty who went blind overnight from meningitis, goodness. big family, of just damn unlucky?
            And if you registered people for lab work, hahaha you would know that isnt all haematology……….. try again, you are such a poor pharma troll…………..

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            You are just a superb example of human compassion, aren’t you? You want me to trot out their personal medical records? Call up my mom and say “Hey mom, some self proclaimed “pathologist” on the internet doesn’t think chicken pox scars. Can you take a picture of your skin that you’re spray tanning to hide the depigmentation that you’re still really uncomfortable about to show to the entire internet?”

            And my grandfather grew up in a very small community in rural Utah that even still is rather isolated. A lot of Utah is. I’d tell you which town but I really don’t want you knowing who I am since I’m not convinced you’re not the type to ship me anthrax spores. But the town is still small enough with so little population movement that the people there would still probably know who he was which would easily lead you to me. No thank you. My grandfather didn’t catch mumps until he was drafted into the Korean War and was exposed to a ton of other young men at boot camp pulled from all over thr state. It did prevent him from being shipped overseas to the actual fighting though.

            The infant who died was in Utah as well in a mining town with a lot of transient workers that came and went quite often.

            I’ve had enough. I’m done humoring you. I never thought brain damage could be contagious but damn if you aren’t making the good college effort.

            And because you seem to lack the ability to not take everything literally, no, I’m not actually saying brain damage is contagious. I leave you with one last meme.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Oh and because you just LOVE sources, smallpox was unfortunately alive and well in the State of Utah in the early 1900s. Unless you believe the public records were in league with big pharma alllllll the way back in 1900.

            https://books.google.com/books?id=iAZQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=smallpox+epidemics+in+utah&source=bl&ots=khBiKz-sqF&sig=Ra9wekR4CSkNAepX08Vwth2YKfw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj66yHktfKAhUMy2MKHcbWBSoQ6AEIMjAH#v=onepage&q=smallpox%20epidemics%20in%20utah&f=false

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Ah well, I am sure those mothers in Brazil, arent real happy about all those vaccine injured babies. 1200 a month!! As for mumps, vaccine is failure, so now kids getting mumps as young adults going to college. (instead of when little, when it wasnt a problem)… THATS WHY MERCK GOT SUED FOR FRAUD. Pertussis vaccine, well just allows those vaccinated to carry it around like typhoid mary, and infect their own babies……….as for mealses and chicken pox vaccine, those vaccined, spread that everywhere. So yes, I call your bullshit, and raise it one.

          • Nick Sanders

            So many claims, so few citations.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I got a dog begging me for a walk in the two feet of snow and when a 100 pound dog demands something by forcing themselves into your lap, you’re inclined to listen.

            Pretend I typed this out and then some for you as I’m short on time and breathing space.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b2879504313af44e605647a650168c19729be64fd8f891b3c297d2d51d1f634.jpg

          • Nick Sanders

            Why are you talking to yourself?

          • Azuran

            Maybe she got mixed up in her multiple aliases?

          • Charybdis

            You filter 10 ml of water (whatever water you are testing: tap, runoff, storm sewer, sanitary sewer, holding pond, holding tank, water fountain, swimming pool, whatever) through a vacuum filter using a filter marked with a grid. You then place the filter onto a growth medium in a small petri dish and incubate it for 24-48 hours. You then count colonies on the grid and do some calculations to arrive at the concentration of coliform bacteria in the sample.

            Some coliform bacteria have a metallic green sheen to them.

            It has been 20 years since I had to do environmental science like this….but I remember at least that much. With a bit of review, I could tell you the type of agar needed, exact temperature of the incubator and how the calculations are done.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            That only took you 45 minutes to find out, well done!

          • Medwife

            Aw, I did that too! So nice to meet a fellow microbiologist! Of course I’m also a geneticist. (Ran gels in college. Is that a thing people even have to do any more or does a machine take care of it?) I have so many talents it’s truly hard to keep track of them all.

          • Roadstergal

            OMG, I was having a Kids These Days chat with a friend about how they all use pre-made gels and nobody does microwave-and-pour anymore.

            I used to pour huge RNAse protection gels, and super-low-percentage ones to separate IgMs.

            Seriously, though, the improvement in lab techniques has been amazing. I’m particularly pleased how little the Kids These Days use radiation in the lab. It’s great.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Oh how long ago? The gels in the petri dishes, how long ago, did you do all this stuff by hand? 1925 perhaps?

          • Rachele Willoughby

            Naw, they totally still made us microwave and pour two years ago when I took it.

    • Azuran

      The zika Virus was around in asia and africa. Not south america.
      No one in south america was ever exposed to it before.

    • Nick Sanders
  • spinneywebber

    Gee, I guess it’s not Zika after all, time to find another scapegoat to cover the vaccine manufacturers asses:

    “Brazil’s Health Ministry said only
    six of the 270 confirmed cases were found to have the Zika virus – with
    two being stillborn and four live births, three of whom later died.”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419738/Brazil-270-4-120-suspected-microcephaly-cases-confirmed.html#ixzz3ysPTFJ5z

    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    • Azuran

      But if the whole point is to hide the fact that it’s a vaccine injury. Why would they let the media report those findings? After all, the whole medical community and government are all part of a big conspiracy. Aren’t they? How are they going to make money from their new zika vaccine if they let people know it’s not Zika?
      Why would they waste valuable time and money letting someone ruining all the effort they put so far to blame the Zika virus.
      Or could it be that the medical community is actually made of honest people who are really trying to find the cause of this problem to prevent future harm to babies.

      • spinneywebber

        so….sounds like you’re a little disappointed it’s not Zika.
        OK, so you were wrong, but look on the bright side, hopefully it will be some more controllable cause, like a vaccination that can simply be stopped.

        • Who?

          You don’t do irony do you?

          • spinneywebber

            yes…like the irony of a vaccination causing microcephaly, then a bunch of internet dweebs fall for the vaccination cover up story blaming a hertofore harmless virus, and then demand a vaccination for said virus.
            Irony.

          • Who?

            That’s not irony.

            And it isn’t true either.

          • spinneywebber

            uhh…irony…yes, it is.
            duh.

          • spinneywebber

            besides, what are you & Azuran anyway, why do you keep butting in and answering his threads? Are you like a tag team on championship wrestling?
            or are you the same pharma company paid troll/hack?

          • Nick Sanders

            Didn’t I already say that to him?

        • Azuran

          I actually don’t believer the daily mail much so no, my stance hasn’t changes since no real proof of anything definitive has been shown so far.

          And you have a misunderstanding about us. We believe in science. If ever, real scientific evidence showed a real link between vaccination and some other problem, we would accept it and totally accept a change in vaccine recommandation to prevent that problem from happening. But for now, there has yet to be any scientific evidence linking zika to the vaccine.
          Unlike what you think. I don’t get money from big pharma and I don’t live in a place where I have to worry about Zika. I have nothing to gain or lose from it, not matter what the cause is.

          And beside. A broken clock will be right twice a day. If you go on and on and on all your like about how every single illness on earth is somehow the fault of vaccine, eventually you are going to be right (which will be totally accidental) it will not make you a martyr nor will it erase those other 10 000 times you were wrong.

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          Absolutely, well said spinneywebber.
          They vaccinated in utero, in an attempt to cover up the fact that newborn babies, are being infected by vaccinated carriers…..(abysmal vaccine failure, causing more baby deaths, than known in modern history)……….. If it had worked, the newborn babies would no longer have been catching whooping cough from close vaccinated family members (who have no idea they are carriers)………………. Epic fail, what do they do? Blame ISIS? nah, blame a mossie, win/win GSK, can sell more useless vaccines, to magically stop the zika (which will stop in July anyway), so a definite success, and Monsanto, doing a dive in stock prices, due to a very seedy history (sorry for the pun), can make lots and lots more pesticides, to kill they mythical mosquito. Only problem with the plan? Internet, wise people actually can speak with other wise people, and share the truth.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Imagine the damage the truth is doing to the second biggest industry in USA, drugs…. (1st is war)……… Measles vaccine now known to spread measles, Mumps vaccine got Merck a few million in fraud fines, as it is a total failure. As for the abysmal failure of acellular pertussis vaccine, in use since mid 90s? The reason for whooping cough vaccine, remember, is to protect those who cant be vaccinated, the newborn babies. Anyone else, whooping cough is mild. Imagine the damage to that whole vaccine industry, when it is found that THE VACCINE failure is THE ONLY CAUSE OF BABY DEATHS. And all they had to do, to stop it, STOP USING THE FAILED VACCINE.

    • Who?

      Isn’t the zika test terribly unreliable?

      And anyway, they are manufactured by Big Pharma (cue scary noises) so you can’t believe the results.

      Unless of course they suit your narrative, right?

      And btw if you believe what you read in the Daily Fail, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.

      • spinneywebber

        unbelievable.,,you’re in love that much with the Zika cover up that even now you will cling to it?

        • Who?

          How do I know what caused it.

          Smart people who know way more about it than me think there is at least a strong and credible link to zika.

          i’m not in a position to disagree with them.

          And then a slimy antivax nut comes along frothing at the mouth, talking about shrinking heads-they don’t shrink, they just don’t grow-and I’m supposed to believe that, backed up by the authority of the Daily Fail?

          Do try to be a serious human for one moment.

          • spinneywebber

            sorry, you’re imagining all your villains are the same person, putting many words in my mouth (as usual).
            just slow down, take a deep breath…you’ll be ok.
            like I told your homey below, even though it means your favorite theory is most conclusively WRONG, it’s a good thing. Much better if this problem is shown to be caused by something more controlable, say by simply stopping vaccination.

          • Who?

            You may as well all be one person, one tedious person.

          • spinneywebber

            once again, you actually sound disappointed it’s not some uncontrollable raging virus we all need to be scared of.
            Kind of shows your hand, don’t you think?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Well I am a credible person, and the zika theory is one of many, just as credible as that one that said all the women drank from the same coke bottle?
            Much more serious, is perhaps their area is suddenly polluted (ah but not all in one geographical area), OR of course could be that dtap WAS given to ALL THE MICROCEPHALIC babies in utero? Is perhaps that theory at least as credible as all the women drank out of the same coke bottle? Nah OK you believe the coke bottle theory.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Well they have managed to test for zika since 1947, so dont see why the test would not be accurate in 2016?

        • Nick Sanders

          Isolating a virus in a research lab is not the same thing as testing for infection in doctor’s office.

        • Azuran

          This comments shows clearly how much you don’t know about medical testing and research.

          • Roadstergal

            I totally missed this comment (easy to do, with her prolific word-barfing). She doesn’t even know what an IVD is and that there isn’t one for Zika?

    • Nick Sanders
      • spinneywebber

        So, Zika isn’t to blame after all, you were sooooo wrong, all that hot air spewing nonsense & disinformation about a harmless little virus, such a waste of energy…quick, time to bait & switch.

        • Who?

          No one knows yet whether or not it’s zika, for now it is one thing being considered.

          Most people who aren’t raving anti vaxxers think it isn’t the vax, unless the vax can travel back in time.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            What do you mean travel back in time…. They started vaccinating in May, the babies started being born vaccine damaged October? That is in all the references……………. ie 6 months, ie 24 weeks later???

        • Nick Sanders
      • yugaya

        Quoting Daily Mail ought to become the next internet fallacy.

        • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

          yugana do you actually have any information or anything for this debate/discussion……… or you only learnt no. 1 in how succeed in paid trolling 1. is mock everyone who disagrees with pharma fraud. No I give you 2. use big words that say nothing …………

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Protection: Residents run away and others cover their faces as municipal workers spray insecticide in Recife

            so as for the Daily Mail, yes hilarious………. the residents apparently running away, are sitting laughing at the two men dressed like astronauts, (they are in white today, they were in bright yellow a couple of days ago, in a different article)……. look at all the photos and the captions, they are hilarious…………….. look at the absolute NON PANIC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, while the two men in white, try and look serious!

            Obviously the locals know there aint no problems with the mossies! hahaha! Notice how none are in long sleeves………………….. etc……………. these pictures are entertaining………….

    • Megan

      Even if the Daily Mail article is true, I’m not sure how this makes any difference for you and your argument regarding Tdap. I have said all along that I am willing to consider other causes besides Zika (or a cofactor alongside Zika), but it’s still not possible that a vaccine given in third trimester can cause severe microcephaly. I don’t think any of us here are that attached to Zika as a theory that we can’t consider other things as a cause, but they have to make chronological sense.

      • DaisyGrrl

        What if I discover a way to time travel? Are we allowed to abandon chronology then? 😉

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        Wasnt given third trimester, that is the recommendation previously (the coccooning theory, which failed)……. that is still the recommendation, I believe in USA> Those in Brazil were given the vaccine pre 20 weeks. Anyhow, I posted a reference to a child who got microcephaly after birth, after being given dtap…………… so if it can have that affect in a born child, seems to me it could happen any stage of pre birth gestation.
        All my references, are up the top of this thread, including the dtap microcephalic girl.

        oh heres that direct link http://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-pediatric-neurology/jpn00659 microcephaly in India

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          First, I still have grave doubts about this publisher. They are not listed on PubMed and don’t appear to be doing much in the way of peer review prior to publication.

          Nonetheless, taking the article at face value for the moment, I would point out a couple of things. First, the couple who had this child was consanguineous, a risk factor for rare recessive diseases. Second, she was not microcephalic at birth. Third, although her head circumference was 3 SD below normal, so was her weight. She was failing to thrive already. It is unclear to me when she began to fail to thrive, but the article notes that she met developmental milestones until 12 months then failed to meet further milestones. She presented after the vaccine at 18 months. Fourth, she was vaccinated with the whole cellular vaccine, which is more likely to provoke a febrile reaction, not the acellular vaccine that you’re claiming is the problem. Fifth, she recovered from this episode, more or less, only to die after a further non-vaccine provoked febrile illness.

          In short, the case report is one of a syndrome that is almost nothing like what is going on in central and South America, in a child who was vaccinated with a different vaccine than the one you say is causing the problem, and clearly demonstrated that it was fever, not vaccination, that caused problems in her body.

          What made you think this case supported your argument?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Thats interesting too. I just came across it, and found the link interesting…. If a child can develop microcephaly, after birth, from any vaccine.. or any reason…………..well obvious a child can develop it any time in utero. As for claiming the whole cell was not a problem………… IT WAS NEVER EVER GIVEN TO PREGNANT WOMEN. So is mostly irrelevant when discussing Brazil…….Whole cell has always been a problem, thats why they dont use it any more. It caused more disabilities and deaths, than any other vaccine up to the time it was scrapped. I just dont see the need to compare the whole cell (which worked and prevented whooping cough for 50 years) and hasnt been used for 20 years, to the new vaccine….. also I have never ever heard of fever causing microcephaly,,,,,,,,,,,,, The article clearly links microcephaly to the vaccine given…..I think the article is still very relevant, did you purchase the full article?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Although the title of the article described the child as having “microcephaly” the article itself sounded like the head was proportionate to the body size (though it’s hard to tell because the details weren’t given: Further evidence that the article was at least not well peer reviewed, possibly not peer reviewed at all.) It sounds like a classic case of VWMD, with an accelerated phase possibly induced by a vaccine related febrile illness. No one is denying that vaccines can produce fevers. If anyone had any idea that that child carried the genetic mutation for VWMD, they would probably have recommended against vaccination with DTwP because it relatively frequently provokes fever. Unfortunately, we lack adequate genetic engineering techniques to replace the broken gene and therefore these children can’t yet be saved.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Oh well too late now, she got microcephaly…. not peer reviewed? It was published in Journal: Journal of Pediatric Neurology, vol. 12, no. 3, pp. 167-170, 2014 what do you mean by not peer reviewed? Obviously didnt go past GSK or Sanofi Pasteur!! hahah, they didnt pay for this research….. Are you saying that all the women in Brazil, actually have a genetic mutation, in their babies, all 4,000 of them? And of course the 1200 per month that will be born until around July……… And that is why they reacted so badly to the pertussis vaccine given to them in utero? Interesting idea….. but not really relevant. If that many babies, have a genetic code, that reacts badly with a vaccine given in a trial in pregnant women, still was a bad idea, surely?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I see no particular evidence that the journal in question, despite its impressive sounding title, is peer reviewed. It is not listed in PubMed. The link you provided claims that the article was accepted the same day it was submitted, which is not consistent with peer review having been performed unless the “submitted” date was for a revision that did not need repeat peer review (and the vast majority of journals document it if a submission is a resubmission.)

            The Brazil cases are not VWMD, with or without microcephaly. The article, at best, demonstrates that a vaccine which produces a fever can provoke acceleration of a genetic illness which causes inevitable cognitive decline, but can be worsened by fever. In short, it is completely unrelated to what is going on in Brazil with the only common point being that the word “microcephaly” was used in both cases. Probably misused in the case report, as it happens.

        • Megan

          Cocooning initially referred simply to vaccinating mothers postpartum. When that was found ineffective, they expanded the recommendation to all those that would be around the newborn. It was then expanded to include vaccinating pregnant women in their third trimester to confer passive immunity to the newborn.

          And again Dtap is a different vaccine than Tdap and it is only given to children up to age 7. it is not given to adults, pregnant women or otherwise.

          As Green Fish has posted repeatedly, the recommendation for Tdap in pregnancy is the same in Brazil as in the USA, to be administered between 27 and 36 weeks of pregnancy. If you have some document that these recommendations were ignored en mass, enough to increase the rate of microcephaly 20-fold, please do share them.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Thanks Megan, thankyou for the information. Yes you must have the same reference as this…….. I will have to look for the reference I had that said around 22 weeks to give the vaccine. Of course, all anyone seriously interested in finding the real cause, would just find the vaccination records for the women……………or ask them. https://idsent.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/tdap-vaccinations-for-all-pregnant-women-in-brazil-mandated-in-late-2014/
            And of course, you seem to be assuming, for some reason, that giving the vaccine after 27 weeks, would prevent microcephaly, why do you assume this??????http://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-pediatric-neurology/jpn00659 It is possible to develop this due to the vaccine AFTER BIRTH

          • Megan

            Because severe case of microcephaly that are present at birth originate in the first trimester when CNS development occurs. It is possible for microcephaly to develop after birth due to genetic defects or craniosyntosis, but that is not what we are seeing in Brazil. We are seeing severe microcephaly present at birth and often able to be seen on ultrasound late in second trimester.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Microcephaly can develop at any stage, of the growing baby……and as you say, even after birth…… If you have proof that these women had microcephalic babies BEFORE their dtap vaccine, that would be very relevant………… but you dont…………… So all of you information, is just your guesses……… and are you an expert in the field? If so references appreciated.

          • Charybdis

            And you don’t have proof that the women DIDN’T have microcephalic babies before their TDap vaccine either. How prevalent is ultrasound in Brazil (serious question…I would think it would be common in the wealthier areas, but not so much elsewhere, but I don’t know)?

            That sort of information would be relevant as well.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Charybdis Thankyou, exactly, you just at least admitted all the microcephalic babies got TDap. I wasnt the one saying microcephaly only occurs in first trimester, that was Megan….. your other alias…………… you should have replied as Megan

          • Charybdis

            I most certainly did NOT say that. You were implying that the TDaP caused the microcephaly after the mother was vaccinated. I was stating the flip side to that, that the mothers who had microcephalic babies did not know that their baby had that condition when they got the vaccination in the very late second or third trimester. And the birth defect of mictrocephaly does occur in the first and early second trimester when the nervous system is developing. You know, why it is important that women get enough folic acid to help prevent spina bifida and other neurologic defects that occur early on in the pregancy.

            Nick Sanders posted a lovely pictographic timeline of embryonic and fetal development further downthread. You might take a look at it. It has pictures so it should be easy to follow.

            And the BABIES did not get the TDaP vaccination,. Their mothers did. Please try to keep these things straight.

            And Megan and I are not the same person.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Look at the chart above, blue, CNS development, weeks 20-38? Are you confused? The picture is above………….. Clearly says CNS development week 20-38? Your chart, your reference?

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Actually a spot on chart, my baby got heart damage from me taking zoloft in pregnancy, HLHS and I had stopped taking it by week 8.. was that period week 5 til 8………… so CNS damage, yep I would trust the chart, week 20-38

          • Megan

            No the chart clearly doesn’t say that. It says major morphological developments occur before week 20 (dark blue) and minor/functional developments occur after that (light blue). You are just incapable of reading or understanding the chart. But go ahead and keep making yourself look silly.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            CNs damage, blue line…………. the babies are born alive, just have microcephaly……… nah chart is fine.

          • Megan

            I will say it one more time: Read the caption. There is a difference between the dark and light blue lines.

            Dunning-Krueger is strong with this one. Reminds me of Abby Reichardt math…

          • Charybdis

            Maybe s/he’s color blind.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            Dunning-Kreueger Abby Riechardt math? sorry I dont follow? Seems quite clear to me CNS damage weeks 20-38 if you want to call mycrocephaly minor, I dont care………….

          • Megan

            Then what, pray tell does the dark blue line that stretches from weeks 3-20 mean to you? I’m truly interested in your complete inability to interpret the chart.

            Oh and Dunning-Krueger you could easily google. Abby Reichardt math is something you’d only get if you actually read this blog regularly, you know, like all of us other “trolls.”

            Pathetic.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            So why is all that relevant? PLEASE focus and stay on topic…….. you mentioned it, so you give me references, you refused to google yourself previously, I had to type in ALL the references that actually are on topic, proving that even FDA admit that the acellular pertussis, causes those vaccinated to become carriers of pertussis, without symptoms, infecting babies….MY references and notes are ON TOPIC>>>> Why would I read a blog regularly, my speciality is in the failure of the acellular pertussis vaccine, and the fraud being told that a mossie has caused all the baby damage in Brazil.

          • Megan

            Here’s the summary since you can’t seem to follow it. Cases of severe microcephaly like we are seeing in Brazil, occur during early fetal development. The chart shows that major CNS development occurs between weeks 3 and 20 (regardless of how you’d like to interpret the chart, that’s what it says). If you’ve ever been pregnant or known anyone who has, you’ll know that CNS development certainly doesn’t happen in the second half of pregnancy just by looking at an ultrasound, even if you can’t read a chart; it’s easy to see brains in a fetal skull at a 20-week anatomy scan, in fact they are routinely measured. As stated in the other citation I provided for you (which of course, you completely ignored), microcephaly can be seen n a late second trimester ultrasound and sometimes as early as 18-20 weeks on ultrasound. Tdap vaccine is recommended to be given in weeks 27-36, after major CNS development has happened and microcephaly can be seen on ultrasound. This is not difficult.

          • Charybdis

            Read the fine print at the bottom. The CNS starts developing very early, that is why folic acid supplementation is important in women who want to become/are pregnant. That is when the major morphologic defects occur. Just because major ones occur there does not mean they always arrest the development of the rest of the CNS. If something is causing the development of the brain to be inhibited, it would be here, in early pregnancy.

            Minor and functional developments occur later in pregnancy, as shown by the graph. Note the difference in the blue bars. The dark blue sections encompass the major development periods, the light blue sections indicate the minor/functional development periods.

            Please read ALL the words on the page before claiming you know what the material said.

          • Megan

            Here you go. i wandered all the way down thread to find the nice graphic Nick so kindly provided. It’s just basic embryology. You could find it in any textbook. I’m sure embryology isn’t a part of phlebotomy training.
            http://www.personal.psu.edu/mgv5030/blogs/pla/environmental%20toxins%20and%20fetal%20development.jpg

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            OK Hello Megan………….. very pretty chart, so what am I meant to be looking at?

          • Megan

            You asked me to chow you about CNS development and when it occurs. There you go.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            That fetal growth restriction can happen all the way through pregnancy, and the CNS, develops from week 20-38? Yep a vaccine given mid pregnancy, isnt a good thing……….. no sorry think you misunderstood… anyway, great chart, thankyou!

          • Megan

            Can you not read? The caption says: “Dark blue bars indicate time periods when major morphological abnormalities can occur, while light blue bars correspond to periods at risk for minor abnormalities and functional deficits.” In other words, major morphological abnormalities for the CNS occur up to week 20 and minor abnormalities and functional deficits occur during weeks 20-38.

          • Roadstergal

            “Can you not read?”

            About as well as she can write.

          • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

            “”””Because severe case of microcephaly that are present at birth originate in the first trimester when CNS development occurs. “””””””””””” sorry that is your quote Megan, your chart says the cns developes weeks 20-38?

          • Megan

            No it doesn’t. You aren’t reading or understanding the chart. See my reply to you below and read the caption.

          • Megan

            “Why is fetal ultrasound recommended?

            Fetal ultrasound is generally performed in pregnancies between 18-20 weeks of gestation to assess fetal anatomy as part of routine obstetrical care. Although microcephaly and intracranial calcifications are typically detected during ultrasounds later in pregnancy, these findings might be detected as early as 18-20 weeks gestation. Microcephaly and intracranial abnormalities have been demonstrated in pregnancies with known Zika virus disease. Hence, additional ultrasounds might provide an opportunity to identify findings consistent with fetal Zika virus infection and offer pregnant women the option of amniocentesis to test for Zika virus RNA.”

            http://www.cdc.gov/zika/hc-providers/qa-pregnant-women.html

          • Megan

            “How is microcephaly diagnosed prenatally?

            Microcephaly can be diagnosed during pregnancy with ultrasound. Microcephaly is most easily diagnosed by ultrasound late in the 2nd trimester or early in the third trimester of pregnancy.”

            http://www.cdc.gov/zika/hc-providers/qa-pregnant-women.html

          • Megan

            There are more Q&A on US for diagnosis of microcephaly but for the sake of brevity, I cam not going to copy and paste them all here. You can read them at the link I provided.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      Amazing that, isnt it? But 4,000 out of 4,000 all got dtap before 20 weeks gestation…………. Vaccine manufacturers heaven! The sus vaccine got removed in December, so babies will be born until July………… this new ubeaut vaccine could be water, it will suddenly work like a miracle come July!

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        So then why isn’t microcephaly appearing in the US or Canada or Australia or any other place with a high vaccination rate but few or no reported cases of Zika? Your claim that the DTaP is inadequately effective has a certain grain of plausibility, though not anywhere near the amount that you seem to believe, but the claim that it’s related to microcephaly isn’t even based on a good temporal or geographic correlation, much less a biologically plausible causative mechanism.

  • flow ir in

    https://brazilianshrunkenheadbabies.wordpress.com/about/

    anti vaxxers really need to do what?

    Vaccines may well have CAUSED this

    • Megan

      “anti vaxxers really need to do what?”

      1) Read through the comments first before copy and paste commenting the same damned nonsense over and over again.

      2) Cite real sources (though now at least we can see where Spinner was quoting his BS from)

      That’s a start anyway…

    • Green Fish

      OK, one last time, then I’m off to bed.

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5, 7 and 8.
      (It’s a mercury-free vaccine btw.)

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TdaP a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So,now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TdaP and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This TdaP for pregnant women thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier than September/October 2015 if they were due to TdaP.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TdaP. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TdaP this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TdaP you have to bend the timeline so much, and you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t work as a theory.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a big population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TdaP, it just doesn’t work.

      PS: The name of that blog you linked to is just awful and really insensitive.

      • kfunk937

        Thank you, Green Fish.I thought about copy-pasting your excellent reply, just in case you’d turned in for the day, but here you are!

      • Rachele Willoughby

        You should start numbering them. Just for the sake of curiosity.

      • lifebiomedguru

        It could well be both. Mutations in a specific gene called Toll-like receptor adaptor molecule 1 (TICAM1) causes a Herpes Simplex infection to lead to encephalomyopathy. The effect of TdaP could be similary. As part of their VIID program, researchers at IPAK (ipaknowledge.org) are finding similarity between TICAM1 and the B. pertussis hemagglutin antigen – this could be a case of molecular mimicry leading to new and unknown neurological damage due to TdaP. This will be published soon and will need to be followed up. Knock out TICAM1, you’ve got a problem with microglial activation. As for your point that the timing does not fit, well, the initial months’ uptick in microencephaly may well not have registered sufficiently. The program effects kick in as patients are vaccinated and numbers grow over months. The study of this vaccine had 117 and 115 patients in two groups – insufficient to see safety effects when Zika infection rates are not 100%. And, as for the extent of microcephaly seen, when viral infections occur in the 3rd trimester, hird trimester of pregnancy, the risk of transplacental transmission is highest, as is the rate of growth of the brain in utero, and at 35 week’s the baby’s brain is about 2/3 of what it will weight at 39 weeks – 1/3 is A LOT of brain growth to lose out on due to any factor. There is also the possibility of rubella-like p53 involvement directly from Zika not involving TdaP, but these have to be looked into. THe press has gone bonkers and publishes press articles stating that the link between Zika and microcephaly is CONFIRMED… yet what do they know about interactions such as those being studied? Nothing.

        • kellymbray

          Why don’t you mention IPAK is your company and that you have a financial conflict of interest in this subject?

      • flow ir in

        i agree, the name is just awful.

        I posted not to blame the microencephaly on tdap, but more for the issues it raised about a virus being the cause. Did all zika viruses spontaneously mutate? Why have we not seen this before?

        The ‘causative’ link – saying zika virus was found – isn’t causative at all, by the same measure we could say oxygen or water were to blame, since they were all found in the brains of the babies.

        My bet is that there are a few different factors coming into play.

    • crazy grad mama

      Oh yeah, that source looks legit.

    • yugaya

      One of the comments on the link you posted:

      “Amazing, you are spot on. I noticed a few of the Dtaps are made using
      monkey cells (Vero) so it could be Zika virus from the shots.”

      Vaccine research really needs to focus on coming up with a vaccine against being THAT stupid.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Who?

      Such a professional, appropriate and kind website name.

      What sort of twisted human calls it that, and then what sort of broken toy opens it, looks at it, and spreads it around?

      Yet again, the antivax compassion deficit comes out for all to see.

      • flow ir in

        ad hominem , the #1 tool of the pro-vaccine morons.

  • crazy grad mama

    We really need to be playing Anti-Vax Bingo on this thread. I find it works best as a drinking game.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      Do want us all to die?! Our livers won’t be able to take it!

    • Who?

      I’ve been playing for days.

      Ran out of bingo cards.

      Now I’m just doing it for the lols, as the young ones would say.

    • BeatriceC

      I’m not south of the Cow Key Channel bridge in the Florida Keys. My tolerance for alcohol isn’t strong enough for that game.

      (To explain, I rarely drink more than one beer at a time, and then it’s only when I go out, which is maybe once or twice a month. The one lone exception is when I’m in Key West, when apparently my Irish roots come out and I can drink like a fish).

    • demodocus

      Sadly, a few of us are stuck with water and juice

  • Randal

    They keep telling you that vaccines are safe and you believe them. They keep telling you that vaccines are proven effective and you believe them. I feel so sorry that you don’t do the research for yourself and question what Corp MSM tells you!

    • yugaya

      They keep telling you that vaccines are not safe and you believe them. They keep telling you that vaccines are not proven effective and you believe them. I feel so sorry that you “do the research” for yourself and think you are somehow magically qualified to google-evaluate the safety of vaccines.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      You should stop letting people lie to you. Misinformation doesn’t give you they special knowledge they told you it would

    • Neya

      Do you know how many women in Central and South America would be lining up to get a Zika vaccine to save their kids?

    • Nick Sanders

      Go play outside kid, the adults are busy.

    • crazy grad mama

      Does it ever occur to you that we have “done our research”? That having explored all the data, we have concluded that anti-vaxxers are full of shit?

      • BeatriceC

        “anti-vases”

        Hmmmm, can an ant-vase hold anything? Or is this a topological condition similar to the donut/coffee cup example that’s so common?

        And this is why scientists don’t let mathematicians play in their sandboxes very often.

        • crazy grad mama

          LOL. Typo has been fixed.

      • demodocus

        thats pretty much what i said to the naturopath who lurks at my local knitting shop to shut her up

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        You score two …………. Two questions. No information given though……….. Can you provide references.? What research have you done?

        • crazy grad mama

          Oh sweetie, I’m not going to write a dissertation for you. You can do a search on PubMed just as easily as I can.

      • spinneywebber

        same goes for you “I believe everything the mass media tells me and I’m very very scared of my fellow citizens who haven’t submitted to the fascist dictates of the vaccination authorities” types.

        hint:
        “research” doesn’t mean taking your daily spoon fed vaccination hype like a good complaint boy/girl.
        You actually have to do a little work and go out and look for the dissenting research, because they are not going to spoon feed it to you in your daily news feed.

        • crazy grad mama

          Oh, you’re so precious. Do you know how to read a medical journal? Do you even know where to find them?

          • spinneywebber

            why exactly am I supposed to be defensive?
            Most of the crowd here simply regurgitates their daily news feed, direct from the fascist Pharma talking points.

          • crazy grad mama

            You didn’t answer my question, dear. Can you find medical journals? I’ll even give you credit for reading article abstracts.

        • Nick Sanders
          • spinneywebber

            link spammer

          • Nick Sanders

            Better than nonsense spammer.

          • spinneywebber

            I guess that depends on the links, doesn’t it?
            One man’s nonsense is another man’s bread & butter, apparently.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, nonsense is indeed your bread and butter, thanks for finally admitting it.

          • Who?

            He probably feels better too.

          • spinneywebber

            your creativity index in the humor dept is really down there, low teens (out of a hundred).

    • Amazed

      OK, I’d want to get educated. Help me out of my ignorance. Tell me where to look for real information.
      Start with showing me your degree in immunology.

      • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

        You only got 2 out of 5. try harder. You are not earning your wages, or not thinking, one or the other.

    • Medwife

      Don’t stay up too late at night crying for us.

    • angela coral eisenhauer (fb)

      HOW TO BE A PHARMA TROLL. 1. Mock whatever anyone says if it doesnt back up the pharma mantra 2. Claim to be doctors, or scientists (keep in mind some doctors, ie in one article, was actually a doctor of dinosaur bones ) This one at least is a gynaecologist, not sure of the immunology connection? 3. Use as many big, big words as possible 4. Demand to see proof ie “”show me your degree in immunology”” 5. Ask lots and lots of rhetorical questions……………..

      and of course I only quote references that are up to date, verifiable, and even now, the FDA report someone is questioning? Good god, FDA passed this rubbish vaccine.
      Plenty of my posts throught the thread, oh and I use my own name,

      • The Computer Ate My Nym


        Use as many big, big words as possible

        Big, big words that someone who works “in the field” should be able to understand without any difficulty at all. We use them for the reasons that Randall Munroe’s “Thing Explainer” makes clear: It is often actually easier to explain something using the correct technical terms than to explain the same thing in simplified language. And if we’re talking to someone who is claiming to be an expert, why not use the easier, if more technical, terms rather than going through the trouble of trying to talk in lay terms?

      • Nick Sanders

        2. Claim to be doctors, or scientists (keep in mind some doctors, ie in one article, was actually a doctor of dinosaur bones )

        Compared to the antivax “doctors” who often have shit like English degrees?

  • Randal

    Vaccines are from junk science! Do the research! Why are the vaccinated getting the very diseases they were vaccinated against? The vaccines believers will pay for their being duped with their heath or lives!

    • yugaya

      Vaccines are from science! Real scientists do the research! Why are the antivaxxers getting the very diseases they were not vaccinated against and spreading them? Because that is how VPDs spread! The antivaxxers will pay for their being duped with their health or lives!

      http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/29/inenglish/1435559306_461811.html

    • Neya

      Do you know what research is? I spent 15 years measuring fluid mechanics properties of fins. I may not do pharmaceutical research, but I can promise you that my bar for research and the bar for research most commenters have here is much higher than yours.

    • Nick Sanders

      Why are the vaccinated getting the very diseases they were vaccinated against?

      They aren’t.

      • Megan

        Raise your hand if you’ve never gotten any of the VPD’s you were vaccinated for…

        • Nick Sanders
        • Azuran

          The only childhood disease I ever had was chickenpox. But that was before there was a vaccine for it. Back when having chickenpox was a rite of passage for kids and chickenpox parties were a thing.

          Now, in only 10 years with the vaccine, the number of doctor visits for chickenpox dropped 70%.
          Clearly, in anti-vaxxer’s mind, that is nothing but a coincidence, as our hygiene and nutrition has obviously increased dramatically in the last 10 years.

        • demodocus

          I have no idea if my mother-in-law was vaccinated for Rubella, if she’s the unlucky percentage, or if her cancer at 12 wiped out her immunity… But she’s the only one I know.

          • Megan

            The first Rubella vaccine was released in 1969. So it would depend when she was born whether she likely received it or not.

          • demodocus

            ’53,

        • Who?

          I had measles, and mumps as a kid. Before the vax was available.

          Both were entirely miserable.

          My fully vaxxed kids have had no vpds, thank goodness.

        • momofone

          I had rubella and measles (I think that was pre-MMR?) as a really little kid, and chicken pox, before the vaccine was available. Nothing I was vaccinated against though.

        • fiftyfifty1

          I’ve been vaccinated against the following:
          Tetanus
          Diphtheria
          Pertussis
          Measles
          Mumps
          Rubella
          Typhoid
          Hepatitis B
          Hepatitis A
          Influenza
          Polio

          The only one I have ever had was influenza. The match that year was only partial. My older child, despite being vaccinated, brought it home from school and I got it. My husband and other child (also vaccinated) did not. I was heavily exposed to pertussis when my unvaccinated younger siblings had it. But I didn’t get it. None of the older, vaccinated, sibs got it.

          • Who?

            What use are all these anecdotes to Slimy Spinney and Randal and sabelmouse and the rest of them?

            They have FACTS, FACTS I SAY.

            That will prove all the healthy happy not sick people wrong WRONG WRONG.

          • Megan

            Ditto for me, though the prevnar and menactra are on my list too. I have gotten the flu but nothing else I’ve been vaccinated against. Had chickenpox but that was before Varivax existed. Honestly, I wish there were more things I could be vaccinated for.

          • Megan

            Oh and let me add, chicken pox was absolutely miserable. Skin lesions everywhere (and I mean, ahem, everywhere) and it kept me out of school a week. I still vividly remember it.

          • Who?

            OMG-a confession?

            Slimy and his mates will be all over you to say that this PROVES vaccines DON’T WORK.

          • Megan

            Yeah, they don’t quite value nuance. It’s all black and white for them.

          • Who?

            You can see the attraction: certainty is soothing to a particular kind of person.

          • yugaya

            Well at least he and those like him won’t ever sit next to me for fear of vaccine shedding.

            I consider it a nice little bonus really to being protected against plethora of deadly diseases.

          • Who?

            This is very true. I always encourage the anti-vaxxers to stay well away, entirely for their own benefit of course.

          • yugaya

            All of the above vaccines I think, plus smallpox and tuberculosis. Because vaccines are not given on recommended schedules that are ” one size fits all”, and in each country local health authorities make sure that the vaccine schedule reflects the needs of the population.

          • Charybdis

            All of the above, including TB and Smallpox. DS caught the chicken pox when he was 9 months old, too young for the vaccine. THAT was fun. His pediatrician says he’s the only one of his patients in his age group that has had the chicken pox and the scars to prove it.

          • Mishimoo

            My 3 vaccinated kids were perfectly fine when I went down hard with Chickenpox. I am still so glad we had them vaccinated, it would have been so much worse if they’d been sick too.

        • Mariana

          Never got any of the diseases I was vaccinated against… The one year I missed flu shot I got it.

          I guess big pharma heard I didn’t get the shot and plotted to infect me on purpose… (Either that or working around sick people did the trick)

          • Who?

            Prolly the former, or maybe you didn’t eat enough kale or whatever the super food du jour was that year.

        • BeatriceC

          My oldest son did get pertussis in spite of being vaccinated. He received his last shot in the summer of 2012 and actually got the disease in 2014. Pertussis, however, is well known to be a tricky little bugger to vaccinate against as the protection wears off, just as with the actual disease. That’s the only time either I or any of my children had a VPD we’d been vaccinated against. My oldest also got the chicken pox, but he got it when he was a toddler, before it was a required vaccination (1999), and his pediatrician didn’t mention it, or I’d have given it to him. The other two got the shots even though it wasn’t mandatory until some time later.

          • Who?

            That’s rotten, poor kid.

            My kids somehow hadn’t caught chicken pox and they had the vax the moment it came out, well before it was compulsory.

            I still have the scars from when I had it.

          • BeatriceC

            That kid gets everything that looks at him sideways from three miles away. He’s vaccinated against everything he’s eligible for.

          • Amazed

            In the biggest mommy forum around here, a recent question was how to treat scars from chicken pox. Mom was asking for her own scars, 20 years after the fact.
            As a woman of certain vanity, I think the shot is worth it even for purely cosmetic reasons.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            My Mom still has scars and depigmented spots all over her face and body forty years after she had it as a teenager. She looked like a burn victim according to family who was there.

            Makes you realize how lucky so many of us are to avoid even that.

          • Amazed

            Oh yes. I already threw a pity party here that adults don’t get the shot here. I’ll have to wait until I travel to somewhere they’ll be willing to give it to me.
            Still waiting to get the flu. You know that the flu shot gives you the flu, don’t you? My patience is wearing thin.

          • Megan

            Oh, you don’t want the flu. It’s really no fun at all…

          • Amazed

            Shut up. I’m not listening to any stupid doctors here. I have done my research, you Big Pharma big shill.

          • Megan

            You got me. I’m a shill for big pharma, big formula and big obstetrics (is that a thing?) Still waiting on the paychecks though…

          • Who?

            I have a scar on my forehead above the bridge of my nose and just between my eyes, slightly to one side. I have a couple on my legs too.

            I’ve had them for so long they are just part of me, and the one on my face is less obvious than a freckle.

            But yes, why not avoid them, and the miserable illness that caused them, if possible.

            My sil had it as an adult, while she was working as a hospital pharmacist. Drama re which patients she may have given it to before she had symptoms, and she was sick for weeks.

          • Amazed

            Yeah, it’s quite possible to end up with next to non scars at all. But it’s also possible to get quite a few ones and get self-conscious about them. Even if luck is on my side, I see no reason to trust it AND get the rest of them symtoms as well. I hate being sick. I’m just weird this way.
            I also hated being forced to do maths but I recognize it was for my own good. Unless someone succeeds in convincing me that getting sick is for my own good as well – and they’d better be damned persuasive – it’s a big no no no, nopity no.

          • Who?

            I was lucky, obviously. DF’s mum below, has terrible ones by the sound of it.

            Why risk any of it?

          • momofone

            I have scars all over my wrists and along the underside of my eyebrows. They’ve faded, but I’m glad my son won’t have to deal with them, or with the misery of the illness itself. I had it in the middle of summer, in the deep South, and there was no place on my body not covered, including my throat, inside my nose and ears, and inside my eyelids.

          • Amazed

            Sounds horrible. Why risk any of it?

          • momofone

            But I have Natural Immunity, which is of course totally superior to manufactured immunity. Lucky for me, right?!

          • Medwife

            I remember having them on my tongue. Ow, ow, ow.

          • BeatriceC

            One of my sisters had them on the inside of her eyelids. It was probably as painful as any medieval torture device.

          • momofone

            Oh, awful!

          • Medwife

            I have one in the same place! It’s a little souvenir of what might have been the sickest I’ve ever been, knock on wood. I’m so happy to vaccinate my kids from chicken pox.

          • Who?

            I was very young, I just remember being insanely itchy and mum putting lotion on, distracting me, and being sad and frustrated that I still needed to scratch.

            It must have been hard for her looking after me and worrying that my younger brother (one only at the time, she may have been pregnant I think) would get it.

            But hey, what’s a few sick kids and distraught exhausted parents when there is unfounded fear to spread!

          • Gene

            My spouse has one in the center of his forehead and the center of his stomach. He was a teen. I dont have any, but I was only 5.

          • Megan

            That’s why I feel so thankful that my pregnancies have given me legitimate insurance-covered reasons to get frequent Tdap boosters. It is tricky to vaccinate against. The studies I have read show immunity for 2-3 yeas on average and very high vaccination rates are required for herd immunity. Now, the antivaxxers would say that’s an argument to just not bother vaccinating but personally, I think that means Tdap should be paid for every 5 years.

        • Amazed

          I raise my hand.
          I also never got the chicken pox and I feel so cheated that I didn’t get to enjoy its numerous benefits. I was weeping green tears when I was reading Melanie’s Marvelous Measles. Never got this one either.

          • Nick Sanders

            I got taken to a pox party when I was a toddler. I’m actually kind of pissed, because only a few years later, the vaccine came out. Now I’m at risk of shingles and I didn’t have to be.

        • Medwife

          I was going to wave my hand around but I did get the flu last year after having gotten the shot. Can’t win em all. And actually it was not lab confirmed and was gone in a couple days, so I don’t really know.

        • Box of Salt

          I shall wave my hand, and my kids’. One of them was recently exposed to chicken pox at school . . . and no pox! On the other hand, the same kid did get H1N1 about 2 weeks before the vaccine made it to our area.

          • spinneywebber

            Your child likely has limited immunity, as it has been shown that so called “immunity” from vaccination wanes at an unknown rate, beginning from a few years after vaccination.
            This means your child will be susceptible to contracting Chicken pox as an adult, which is too bad, because the disease, while being harmless for most children, is much worse for adults.
            Someone who contracts the disease in childhood is conferred lifetime immunity, on the other hand.
            You made the wrong choice for your child.
            Sorry.

          • Nick Sanders

            Shown where?

          • spinneywebber

            For one thing, as I keep saying, the burden of proof is on the vaccine manufacturer to show it works, not the other way around.

            I have wasted too much time already spoon feeding you info any idiot who knows how to use google can find in 10 seconds, such as the quote below regarding the low rate of effectiveness/short duration of the measles vaccine (according to Dr. Gregory Poland, editor-in-chief of the journal Vaccine, and professor of medicine and founder and leader of Mayo
            Clinic’s Vaccine Research Group).
            learn how to use google.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wow, you start off talking about the burden of proof then demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the concept.

        • lifebiomedguru

          My son developed mumps after MMR…

          • yugaya

            …as in really diagnosed by a qualified physician, or the usual biomedguru self-diagnosing bullshit?

          • Megan

            If that’s really the case, then God for herd immunity as provided by everyone down thread who did seroconvert.

          • Megan

            *thank God

        • spinneywebber

          I have never gotten the flu vaccine and have not gotten the flu – does that count for something?
          I also was allowed to get chicken pox and mumps as a child and so have lifetime immunity, unlike the unfortunate ones who got only a few years of immunity from a vaccine, and who will likely play a part in spreading it in a future outbreak because they think they have immunity but don’t.

          • Who?

            I’ve had mumps twice.

            I’ve since had the MMR, and haven’t had it again.

            Coincidence? I don’t think so.

          • spinneywebber

            case closed.
            who (has her pants in a bunch) has conclusively proven the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine with her word of mouth anecdotal evidence.
            very, very impressive.

          • Who?

            Oh Slimy it’s you! All you antivaxxers look the same, I’d forgotten you even existed.

            Can I just say how pathetic it is that some sad little man is (still) obsessed with anyone else’s Reg Grundys to such an extent.

            I thought you’d agree I’d aced it, since I used exactly your logic.

          • Azuran

            well, you refuse to accept science and have yet to produce any scientific evidence of any of your claims. So really, there’s nothing else to do but to mock you with stupid unproven claims. After all, that’s all you have to offer yourself.

          • Who?

            And they are so touchy about it.

            Considering the name calling and personal remarks they toss around, while not answering sensible questions, the skins are very thin.

          • Nick Sanders

            unlike the unfortunate ones who got only a few years of immunity from a vaccine, and who will likely play a part in spreading it in a future outbreak because they think they have immunity but don’t.

            http://i3.cpcache.com/product/159703855/citation_needed_decal.jpg?height=225&width=225

          • Bombshellrisa

            People who have gotten the chicken pox can get it twice. Once was enough for me and is what prompted me to make sure my kids get vaccinated.

      • spinneywebber

        Here’s just one example of an outbreak in a school with 100% vaccination compliance. Why didn’t you know this?
        Ask yourself that question.
        “From December 9, 1983, to January 13, 1984, 21 cases of measles occurred in Sangamon County, Illinois.* Nine of the cases were confirmed serologically. The outbreak involved 16 high school students, all of whom had histories of measles vaccination after 15 months of age documented in their school health records.

        The affected high school had 276 students and was in the same building as a junior high school with 135 students. A review of health records in the high school showed that all 411 students had documentation of measles vaccination on or after the first birthday, in accordance with Illinois law.

        This outbreak demonstrates that transmission of measles can occur within a school population with a documented immunization level of 100%. This level was validated during the outbreak investigation.”

        • Nick Sanders

          Oh look, 30 years ago something happened, therefore, it’s happening today. Whatever. I wonder what the Soviets have to say about this?

          • spinneywebber

            just one example of many of the vaccinated getting sick.
            You are much more of an idiot than I thought if you are going to try to argue that that is not an ongoing issue.
            Come on, loser, an outbreak among 100% vaccinated!
            That means a vaccinated person was the SOURCE of the illness, and then spread it to his/her 100% vaccinated peers.
            Herd immunity my as$.

          • Nick Sanders

            Which is why they introduced a booster. The world is not static, things have changed. It’s a phenomenon called “time”. Maybe you should have your parents explain it to you.

          • spinneywebber

            sorry dude, you can’t spin your way out of this one, the science just doesn’t back you up. According to Dr. Gregory Poland, editor-in-chief of the journal Vaccine, and professor of medicine and founder and leader of Mayo Clinic’s Vaccine Research Group:
            “…the immune response to measles vaccine varies substantially in actual field use. Multiple studies demonstrate that 2–10% of those immunized with two doses of measles vaccine fail to develop protective
            antibody levels, and that immunity can wane over time and result in infection (so-called secondary vaccine failure) when the individual is exposed to measles.

            For example, during the 1989–1991 U.S. measles outbreaks 20–40% of the individuals affected had been previously immunized with one to two doses of vaccine. In an October 2011 outbreak in Canada, over 50% of the 98 individuals had received two doses of measles vaccine… this phenomenon continues to play a role in measles outbreaks.

            Thus, measles outbreaks also occur even among highly vaccinated populations because of primary and secondary vaccine failure, which results in gradually larger pools of susceptible persons and outbreaks
            once measles is introduced.

            This leads to a paradoxical situation whereby measles in highly immunized societies occurs primarily among those previously immunized.”
            Let me spell all that out for you:
            With the low effectiveness and short duration of conferred immunity offered by today’s vaccines, herd immunity is a myth.

          • Nick Sanders

            90-98% effectiveness is low?

          • spinneywebber

            pure bullshi$t $pin with dollar $ign$ because that$ what it’$ all about, i$n’t it?
            If a 100% vaccinated population can originate (be the source) and spread a disease among themselves, then you haven’t really accomplished anything, have you? You’re just basically making up a bunch of meaningle$$ number$.

          • Nick Sanders
    • Azuran

      Funny, I never got the measles, never got whopping cough, never got polio, never got diphtheria or tetanus. Nor do I know anyone who ever got it.
      I’ve personally seen, in my career, a big 1 case of a vaccinated dog getting parvo, despite seeing 2-3 cases a week for 3 years. Never saw any vaccinated cat with panleukopenia. Never seen a case of distemper.
      So, where are all those vaccinated people who have VPD?

    • Mariana

      And polio just got tired of killing little kids and went away? Sure… That’s more likely…

  • Randal

    I can’t believe how easily duped people are! MSM says its Zika and you buy it. Dtap is linked to microcephaly not Zika! These mothers had the newly mandated Dtap earlier that year. Reasonable people want the truth! Why not look at all the possibilities? Why not consider vaccines? Because the paid Trolls convince you of lies! Do the research.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      No, I am not convinced by trolls like you. Sorry

    • Megan

      Funny, Dtap is only given to kids aged 2 months through 7 years. Not sure how that’s causing microcephaly.

      • yugaya

        Maybe vaccines can travel back in time and cause damage to babies that never received them. I’m sure Randal is looking into that possibility too. 🙂

        • Who?

          That’s exactly what happened. I just wish we had a measles vax that did the same thing-no more Disney outbreaks!

          • PeggySue

            Yes! Yes!

        • PeggySue

          I think actually the vaccine in question has to be So Spectacularly Ebil that it *turns into mercury* AND shrinks the babies’ heads after they have formed.

      • kellymbray

        This is the latest BS from VRM. They are blaming the TDaP given to pregnant women in Brazil for the microcephaly.

        It is always the vaccine all of the time, even when it is not. They are nothing but crazy cult members worshipping their leader Joel Lord.

        • Megan

          Yeah, i was just pointing out that Tdap and Dtap are different vaccines given to completely different age groups.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Green Fish

      I guess you mean TDap and not Dtap.

      So let’s do this again:

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5, 7 and 8.

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TDap a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So,now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TDap and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This TDap for pregnant women thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier than September/October 2015 if they were due to TDap.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TDap. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TDap this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TDap you have to bend the timeline so much, and you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t work as a theory.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a big population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TDap, it just doesn’t work.

      PS: Please post a link clarifying that Dtap (or maybe TDap?) is connected to microcephalus when administered to pregnant women.
      Or whatever other kind of connection you meant.
      People come here and claim that all the time and we haven’t seen a single scientific source yet.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        It’s actually TdaP because the diphtheria portion is reduced.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    They keep coming back for more!

    • Megan

      And not bringing anything original either… I admit I’m getting a bit worn out. I already have one toddler to deal with.

    • Who?

      They do not.

      Dumb as a box of hammers, and mean with it usually.

      However, if left unchecked their’s are the only voices.

      Anyway it’s really hot and there isn’t much else to do.

      • Mishimoo

        Which is exactly why I usually argue with the ones in my FB friends list, though I haven’t had the energy lately. If only they’d all move to an island like they keep threatening!

        It’s so freaking humid today, it’s ridiculous. The rain went around us so I’m going to open the windows and hope for a breeze.

        • Who?

          It is unbelievably unpleasant here. I don’t know that the rain is helping, it is just hot everywhere.

          We have a bit of a breeze but I fear it won’t last.

          Hard on the kids just back at school too.

          Can anyone suggest a country where February is pleasant? I may emigrate.

          • demodocus

            Maybe some of those pacific island nations?

          • Who?

            Nah, we are hours from them, they are having a way worse time than us. I have come to the view that February is foul everywhere.

            Happy to be offered options.

          • Megan

            It was 60 degrees and sunny here today. Of course last weekend we got two feet of snow, so…

          • Who?

            Exactly. Extremes is what Feb is all about. And nothing fun like Christmas to look forward to.

            Right now snow sounds great though.

          • BeatriceC

            There are times when I really miss North Dakota. Surprisingly to anybody who knows me, winter is one of those times. It’s 50-something F here right now and I’m burrowed under blankets, but I miss being able to drive a few miles to city-maintained cross country ski trails, or outdoor ice skating arenas, or the main dyke that gets used as a sledding hill, and so much more.

          • Who?

            Sounds good. I do like a cold clear winter’s day.

          • BeatriceC

            I don’t know how it is these days, but when I lived there, Fargo, ND was an amazing place to live and raise a family. The parks and recreation department was the best of any place I’ve ever lived or even heard of.

          • demodocus

            Yeah, us too.

          • momofone

            75 and beautiful here today, but tomorrow and Tuesday we’re expecting tornadoes/hail/etc., then back into the 30s.

          • Mishimoo

            Plus they seem to have Zika too, unfortunately.

          • Mishimoo

            If there was steady work out there, we’d move to Stanthorpe or Applethorpe because they generally have cooler weather and are still close enough to visit family.

          • Who?

            True, though they are hotter than us today, maybe less humid though.

            But the food is good.

          • Mishimoo

            Which is one of the attractions, plus I could grow so many things. If we didn’t have to think about family, we’d give serious consideration to either Tasmania (despite the summer temperatures) or Cornwall.

          • Who?

            Tassie is very nice. Not great for kids education wise unfortunately, but really stunning and pretty nice weather most of the time.

            Terrible the fires in the World Heritage area down there, they don’t seem sure it will ever regenerate.

          • Mishimoo

            The fires are awful! The loss of all of those plants and animals is a horrible shame.
            If I were given to conspiracy theories, I would be questioning how many of those were deliberately lit.

          • Who?

            Horrible thought.

            I haven’t heard that anyone’s been killed this time, which is a good thing.

          • BeatriceC

            If you can live with the crunchy, woo-crowd, SoCal is gorgeous in February (though not so much today with El Nino doing his thing). August and September, on the other hand, can get a bit miserable.

        • PeggySue

          We are waiting for what is supposed to be a raging blizzard. I hope it is NOT a raging blizzard as I have to work tomorrow.

          • Who?

            Stay safe, those blizzards are terrifying looking.

          • Mishimoo

            Hope it’s a lot lighter than expected! Stay safe.

        • Bugsy

          Still wishing I’d convinced my old anti-vaxxer friend and her husband to move to the south pacific when she said they were considering it. Never mind that they had no visas, related jobs, overseas health insurance or financial resources. The practical aspects are irrelevant when you can escape toxins and chemicals!!

          • Who?

            Tough on the locals though. Your friends would have wanted the most up to date medical care, supplied by english speaking staff, in a brand spanking new hospital.

            No, mebbe and absolutely no way.

            Friends went on holidays to one of those countries, and their boy-young-was stung by a particular venomous fish crittur.

            Anyway, the local treatment was amputation before it all went way too wrong for them to fix.

            Quick phone call to medical insurer, consultation between doctors and advice taken about time windows and emergency care, and the child was whisked back to have the sting removed and the drug treatment he needed to recover.

            A local child-and the parents-would have known to not swim/paddle there. That local child would have lost at least his foot though, depending how long it took to get the amputation.

            All the world is not benign.

          • Bugsy

            I completely agree…the irony of is is that they’re people who decry modern medical care from the safety net of the very care they criticize. It would be interesting to see how they would react when their entire safety net – even if it’s one they don’t believe they need – were to be removed.

    • Charybdis

      They get knocked down, but they get up again!

      • Nick Sanders

        Yeah, but less “Tubthumping” and more one of those inflatable punching clowns.

        • Charybdis

          True, they are a bunch of Bozos, aren’t they?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        And we’re pissing the night away…

      • Who?

        Just exaclty like those clown toys with a weight in the bottom.

        Hold on a second….

  • DelphiniumFalcon

    One more!

    • spinneywebber

      there have been plenty of whistleblowers, you not paying attention isn’t proof of much.

      • Azuran

        You know what real whistleblowers have? Proof. You still haven’t showed any.

      • yugaya

        Here’s one supposed CDC insider talking about “experimenting on people in third world countries” and claiming that she has first hand insider knowledge of that. Problems with her bullshit claims ( only some of them):

        – Poland is not a third world country and never has been
        – Czechoslovakia, another “third world country” in which vaccines are illegally tested according to her ceased to exist in 1993.
        -HPV vaccine was approved in EU in 2007.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ–PQBgam8

        ” you not paying attention”. Oh but I am, which is why I know that someone with such poor grasp of basic facts probably did not even finish high school, let alone work as an expert for CDC.

        • Who?

          Where is bringing actual facts into this going to end?

          Poor old Slimy Spinney will have to find something else to do if you start showing his whistleblowers are opportunistic wannabes with an axe to grind due to their own ignorant unprofessionalism.

          • yugaya

            There’s something called professional register. If you are an active professional, especially at high expert level, your language use will reflect your education and your vast professional knowledge in many little linguistic details as well as in overall tone.

            The woman speaking in that video pretending to be a research scientist reflects such profound stupidity that I truly fear for the sanity of anyone who falls for this bullshit.

          • Who?

            I didn’t listen, but I believe you.

            I had a job interview the other day, for a senior professional role, with a woman who was so rude it was embarrassing, especially for her boss who was in the room. Another case where the professional register is a good barometer of what is being said.

            They are a great employer, but I sincerely hope they don’t offer it to me as she and I are not going to get on.

        • spinneywebber

          you trot out one example and discredit them and think you’ve proven something?
          That’s called a straw man argument, it don’t fly.
          Here are some links you can not bother to read and then “debunk” them all so your buddies here on this chatboard can all pat you on the back and call you a hero (but that doesn’t make you honest):

          Reality Check: CDC Scientist Admits Data of Vaccines and Autism Was Trashed

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnS-xJCG6i4

          Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

          Government Cover-up of a Mercury / Autism Scandal

          http://www.globalresearch.ca/vaccinations-deadly-immunity/14510

          • Nick Sanders
          • Who?

            You quoted her.

            Backing down from your reliance on her now?

          • Azuran

            Anti-vaxxer logic:
            All studies that show there are no link are fake and wrong.
            1 study show a possible link. In your face vaccination.

            1 study does not make science. In order for the results of your studies to be valid, others must be able to reliably replicate your results. Which has not been the case with vaccine and autism.

          • Who?

            Exactly. Everything they agree with is gospel, everything they don’t agree with is utterly and for all time wrong.

            Which is why I find the reliance on whistleblowers so interesting. They go from devil incarnate to the saviour with a stroke of the pen, no interest in motive, standing with the original organisation, nothing.

            Anti-vaxxers are like drowning people gasping for air. Any support, no mattter how sketchy or polluted, will do for all time.

          • yugaya

            “you trot out one example and discredit them and think you’ve proven something?
            That’s called a straw man argument”.

            Actually it isn’t because the argument you were making was “There’s been plenty of whistleblowers” = proof.

            Since you failed to provide example(s) – which is poor argumentation btw – I dissected the one example out of plenty I’ve ran across in the past as proof that this one out of plenty = pure bullshit.

            As for the example you finally managed to grace us with, I realise that this is well above our paygrade but here you go: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/did-a-high-ranking-whistleblower-really-reveal-that-the-cdc-covered-up-proof-that-vaccines-cause-autism-in-african-american-boys/

          • Who?

            Along with irony, grammar and semantics, he doesn’t have much of a grasp on rhetoric.

            Though we knew that anyway.

      • Who?

        You still here?

        How extremely tedious.

        One minute they’re devil spawn, the next they are peerless and unimpeachable speakers of truth. That moment is the moment they are sacked, or leave under their own steam to go on the altie speaking circuit, for a fee. What could possibly be wrong with that picture?

        Resist your usual prolixity, if you can.

  • Graceds

    Perhaps pesticides might be a cofactor?
    Pesticides in paradise: Hawaii’s spike in birth defects puts focus on GM crops
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/23/hawaii-birth-defects-pesticides-gmo

    Brazilian agriculture, world’s top consumers of pesticides
    “Brazil became in 2008 the world’s top consumer of agriculture pesticides (ahead of the US), and continues to use a range of dangerous pesticides banned in other countries…”
    http://en.mercopress.com/2009/04/18/brazilian-agriculture-worlds-top-consumers-of-pesticides

    • Azuran

      I’m pretty sure those investigating the causes are already looking at all those things you came up with. They just have better things to do than bother us with ‘what if’ every 2 minutes.
      The main reason the possible link with Zika has been mediatized so much is because of it’s potential risk for travellers. They’d rather be safe than sorry. But Zika isn’t the only thing they are investigating.

      • Megan

        “The main reason the possible link with Zika has been mediatized so much is because of it’s potential risk for travellers. They’d rather be safe than sorry. But Zika isn’t the only thing they are investigating.”

        That and because Zika is a flavivirus and other flavirviridae are known to cause microcephaly, e.g. West Nile virus.

  • Graceds

    Have the mercury problems from Brazil’s goldmining been eliminated as a cofactor?

    • yugaya

      Yes the *mercury problems* have been ruled out, CDC is about to update the public – it’s HAARP.

      • Graceds

        Nice non factual response, yuga.
        Pertinent to nothing.

        • Ruth Shoemaker

          “That boy’s making more noise than a couple of skeletons throwin’ a fit on a tin roof” F. Leghorn

        • yugaya

          Non-factual wild theories do not deserve anything else as a reply.

          P.S. We ain’t buddies, gracie.

          • Graceds

    • Nick Sanders

      Since the symptoms of mercury poisoning are very well known, I’m going to say, yes.

  • Graceds

    “But the World Health Organization and others have stressed that any link between Zika and the defect remains circumstantial and is not yet proven scientifically. And the new figures were a reminder of just how little is known about the disease and its effects.”
    http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-more-research-needed-zika-microcephaly-051422758.html;_ylt=AwrSbDgR9axWcWUAWwdx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByNzdqbzZjBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw–

    • Green Fish

      BBC has a nice information snippet on the Zika virus here:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03g0d7b#play
      (starts at 1:09).

      In this they put the first cases of microcephaly at October 2014, not 2015. I don’t know if it is a typo or not.

      But
      anyway, the language of the program is easy to understand, they explain
      very nicely why a link between Zika and microcephaly is not proven yet,
      but why it it is suspected and how science goes about finding out what
      causes it.

      So yeah, science requires more information than what is known now for a proof that it is the Zika virus. But they do have strong reasons to suspect that it is indeed the case.

      • Graceds

        Understood, I would be taking precautions if I lived there, thanks for the link.

  • lifebiomedguru

    Odd that in 2014 Brazil started mandatory Tdap vaccination. We’ll see who has learned a lesson here.

    • Green Fish

      It’s like a never-ending conga line…

      OK:

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5, 7 and 8.

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TDap a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So, now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TDap and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This whole TDap thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier if they were due to TDap.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TDap. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TDap this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TDap you have to bend the timeline so much, and you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t work as a theory.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a big population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TDap, it just doesn’t work.

      • yugaya

        I applaud your endurance.

      • spinneywebber

        In accordance with the principal of first do no harm, just stop vaccinating pregnant woman with vaccines laced with mercury, for christ’s sake.
        Then do a follow up study comparing rates of microcephaly with vaccinated vs unvaccinated mothers with Zika.
        Until that happens everything else is just hot air.

        • DaisyGrrl

          There is no mercury, or thimerosal, in the version of the Tdap used on the women in Brazil. You need to stop making stuff up.

          • spinneywebber

            you are so full of sh$#t!

            I looked it up on the CDC web page…
            YES, the Tdap distributed in Brazil and many parts of the world DO have thimerosal.

          • Nick Sanders

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

            Tdap (Boostrix)

            formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, polysorbate 80 (Tween 80), Latham medium derived from bovine casein, Fenton medium containing a bovine extract, Stainer-Scholte liquid medium

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I looked it up on the CDC web page..

            Notice how nicely Nick Sanders provides the link AND the content that shows that it is not an ingredient?

            You might want to start trying that – granted, it would mean you can’t just make it up, so I realize that will be a problem

          • Nick Sanders

            Being honest is for shills and sheeple.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Okay, I’ll try to make this easy for you. The Tdap used in Brazil is the one developed by GSK (Boostrix). As Nick Sanders kindly pointed out, there is no thimerosal in said version of the vaccine.

            Now it’s your turn to either provide a link that proves Boostrix is not the vaccine being used or a link that proves GSK is lying about its vaccine ingredients.

            If you can’t do either, you need to shut up.

          • Nick Sanders

            I just checked the table, it’s not in any of the vaccines that contain acellular pertussis.

          • Who?

            He runs away when actual, you know, facts are pointed out to him.

            He’s playing with himself upthread.

          • spinneywebber

            You’re right, I confused the influenza vaccine recommended for pregnant women (which was most likely given in Brazil in conjunction with the Tdap) with the Tdap. That is listed on the CDC website as containing thimerosal, and is, contrary to any kind of common sense, also recommended for pregnant women here in the US.
            My bad, I confused the two in that post, so in this instance I was full of sh#t. No more full of sh#t, however, than anyone who recommends injecting the sh#t that is in any vaccine into the bodies of pregnant women. The science is just not there proving it is doing NO harm, which is my criterion….call me old fashioned.
            As I side note, I still wouldn’t speculate with any degree of confidence, based on what you read in GSK press releases, exactly what is, or is not, in the vaccines they manufacture in Brazil. I’m sure they see it as open season on testing whatever they want as proper oversight is lacking.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            In the US they give pregnant women the single dose injection. So, wrong again

          • Megan

            Yup. Only multi dose vials have any preservative.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, you were wrong, again, but we should believe you anyway, because you claim studies don’t exist, even though they do. Just give it up already.

          • Who?

            Well done owning up to your mistake! We’re already having a good influence on you.

            Do explain, in detail-you can draw on both semantics and grammar, once you work out what they are-how to prove a negative.

            And if you must swear, just do it, mealy mouth is so unattractive.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            you are so full of sh$#t!

            You know, before accusing other people of being full of shit, you better have your ducks lined up. Nick has thrown down a challenge. He has provided information from the CDC website that contradicts your claim.

            I looked it up on the CDC web page..

            So given the contradictory information that has been provided, you better provide a link to support your assertion or admit that you have lied. The only question is, did you just make it up or are you parroting nonsense you have heard from some other place?

            While you really have no credibility here in the first place, this is where it all comes to a head for all to see. Your bluff has been called. Unless you can back it up, then it will be unequivocal that you have no credibility at all.

            Personally, I’d recommend you take the coward’s approach and just delete your profile and start over. That will delete all your comments you’ve made.

          • spinneywebber

            you’re all running for cover because your Zika as$ covering story for your Pharma-masters is falling apart:

            Medics probing head-shrinking birth defects in Brazil say just SIX cases from 700 babies examined tested positive for Zika virus

            Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419738/Brazil-270-4-120-suspected-microcephaly-cases-confirmed.html#ixzz3ysaniZsy

            Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

          • Who?

            It’s not.

            You keep popping up, we keep shooting. Not seeing anyone here running for cover.

            Bring it on Slimy. I have a feeling we’ve seen your A game, and it is hopeless.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Charybdis

            A Minbari!!!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            That’s not a CDC reference.

            Whoops.

            Remember, YOU said

            I looked it up on the CDC web page…

            You lied.

            Everyone now knows that you lied.

          • Green Fish

            Apparently you didn’t look at the link I provided, so I post it again:
            http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
            Look at page 6.
            This is mercury-free vaccine.

            You can double-check here:
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

            Using expressions like “sh$#t” won’t further your cause.

            The vaccine does not contain mercury, the timeline between the start of this vaccination program and the first statistically significant occurrences of microcephaly don’t match (see my earlier posts).

            And during the Zika outbreak in French Polynesia they used “neurological defects” and “cerebral malformations” to cover all kinds of different defects.
            http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/zika-microcephaly-Brazil-rapid-risk-assessment-Nov-2015.pdf
            (bottom of page 5)

            They are revisiting this data right now to filter out the microcephaly cases:
            http://terrance.who.int/mediacentre/presser/WHO-RUSH_Zika_virus_presser_28JAN2016.mp3
            (WHO press conference)
            In case you don’t want to listen to at all, here is teh short version:
            http://www.wmdt.com/news/health/urgent-zika-virus-microcephaly-connection/37683730

            For easy but a little longer reading:
            http://www.tahiti-infos.com/Zika-les-etudes-sur-des-malformations-cerebrales-chez-des-bebes-ont-demarre-fin-2014_a141371.html

            So let’s try it with linking to scientific sources or at least news sources that let us look at their sources. and without name calling, OK?

            In the end what all want is that people don’t get hurt. For that we discuss and pool knowledge.
            If there was any chance that harm was coming due to the vaccine I would totally be in favour of stopping its administration, a deep research on what happened and there and a severe punishment for the people responsible.

            But so far you have only presented us with theories about why the vaccine could be behind this that don’t match the timeline of the events, don’t match the contents of the vaccine nor the trimester of pregnancy it was administered in.

            I tried to give you links for everything by providing proper sources (and not just copying and regurgitate stuff that was written on blogs).

            Go directly to the sources, read them for yourselves and see if they really make sense with what is happening.
            And if the blogs don’t want to give you sources, or the sources don’t match, ask yourself why.

            I give you the benefit of doubt that you actually want to know more, that you actually only want to be informed better, and that you’re not too lazy to read through scientific studies and scientific websites yourself.

            So let’s not attack each other but research as much as we can on the internet and provide properly sourced information for each other. 🙂

          • Who?

            He won’t look, ever.

            It will disturb his ‘knowledge’.

          • spinneywebber

            Newsflash:

            Medics probing head-shrinking birth defects in Brazil say just SIX cases from 700 babies examined tested positive for Zika virus

            Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3419738/Brazil-270-4-120-suspected-microcephaly-cases-confirmed.html#ixzz3ysUoHqHD

            Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

            In other words, Zika has nothing to do with this outbreak.
            Best correlation is still with the newly introduced phenomenon, vaccinating pregnant women. Microcephaly can develop after birth, of course it can develop in the third trimester.

            The vaccination was manufactured in Brazil, who knows what they put in it.

            I smell too many rats to count.

          • Nick Sanders

            Microcephaly can develop after birth,

            Not congenital microcephaly, fucking moron.

            The vaccination was manufactured in Brazil, who knows what they put in it.

            http://i.imgur.com/BNYQOIE.jpg

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Actually the problem where an infants head stop growing after birth is a genetic issue

          • Nick Sanders

            I wasn’t saying post birth microcephaly didn’t happen, but according to Wikipedia, it’s a separate classification from microcephaly occurring in the womb.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcephaly

          • yugaya

            “The vaccination was manufactured in Brazil, who knows what they put in it.” Nice little whiff of xenophobia there mates!

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          There is no possible way that a vaccine given in the last weeks of pregnancy could cause this problem. There is no evidence that ethyl mercury causes microcephaly. There is no reason to waste time on a untenable idea

    • Mariana

      Tdap was made mandatory in 2014, true. But it has been commonly given to pregnant women prior to delivery for decades. Ideally you receive that vaccine in Brazil every 10 years, or if you get pregnant and you have not received within 10 years. I got vaccinated while pregnant with my first in 2010, and it was common practice already. My doctor told me to get vaccinated at 7 months pregnant.

      Also, the vaccine is given in the whole country, not only in the northeast

      • sabelmouse

        for decades?

        • Mariana

          dtp has been given to children in the state of São Paulo since 1968.
          I remember vaccination campaigns against tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis for pregnant and women of childbearing age when I was around 15 (I’m 37). I received that at 11, 21 and 31 (when pregnant with my first).

          So yes, decades.

          We are a poor country, but we are very good with vacciantuon.

          And no, parents don’t worry about “vaccine damage”, we worry about measles and other preventable diseases…

          • sabelmouse

            but not decades to pregnant women, that’s relatively new.
            does your country keep track of who gets killed or damaged by vaccines or is that just ignored/denied as it is most everywhere?

          • Who?

            Blah blah blah.

            Does any country keep track of people killed or injured by vpds? That’s a much smaller job than it used to be, thanks to vaccination.

            You people are the dizzy limit.

          • sabelmouse

            yes they do. and it weren’t vaccines that shrunk that job, it were nutrition and sanitation/better overall living conditions.

          • Who?

            Really.

            So what dramatic change in sanitation/nutrition since the late nineties has caused the dramatic fall in the cases of chicken pox since that time?

            Be specific.

            I bet you don’t get around to responding to this one.

          • sabelmouse

            we were talking about mortality/ negative outcomes, not incidence.

          • Who?

            What absolute nonsense. A person can’t die or be permanently injured by chicken pox if they never catch it. Why, since the late 90s, have fewer people been catching it, and therefore being sickened or killed by it.

            Explain what changes in sanitation/nutrition have caused the dramatic fall in cases of chicken pox since the vaccine became available.

          • sabelmouse

            doesn’t change the fact that we were talking about negative outcome NOT incidence.
            mediocre job trying to cover your ignorance.

          • eggman2

            Chicken pox is a stupid little disease that doesn’t kill anyone that is well fed. A person that is well fed shouldn’t even get sick from such stupid little diseases. Stupid people that believe in VACCINES are the ones that bring stupid comments like yours to the light of day.

      • spinneywebber

        drug company back-peddling…you have no proof of this, most likely just made it up or were directed by your drug company masters to start spreading that rumor to cover their asses.

        • Azuran

          You have no proof of anything you claimed since you came on this blog.Most likely you just made it up yourself.

        • Nick Sanders
        • Mariana

          Yes… As a efl teacher I stand to make millions from drug companies. .. sure…
          The only reason I got into this discussion is that I can’t stand a bunch of people who most likely have never set foot in my country debating our health issues as if they were experts.
          I never claimed to be a specialist on epidemiology. I’m writing here is from my own observation and memories.

          But worry not… The money the drug company paid me to come here is over, I’ll just go back to teaching…

          • yugaya

            Mariana it is a known FACT that all EFL teachers are paid huge money by Big Pharma. If you see more than one commenting on a vaccine blog – it’s PROOF!

            *waves to colleague*

          • Mariana

            *waves back!*
            I never comment on the Internet… But this is so entertaining I might try it again.

            The only problem is that I’m not always sure if people are being sarcastic or not.

          • Megan

            Yeah, this is the only blog I post on at all, yet apparently I’m a shill too. Funny that we’re all vaccine shills who frequent an blog about obstetrics…

          • BeatriceC

            Hmmm. Maybe I picked the wrong subject to teach.

          • demodocus

            Did you forget to pay your dues to Pharma again?

          • spinneywebber

            if you really live in Brazil, you should be very wary of imperialist for profit pharmaceutical companies testing their latest sh#t on you, they love to do that.
            Your quarrel belongs with them, not people working to prevent them using you all as guinea pigs.
            Remember Henry Kissenger, the US’ favorite statesman, calls most people south of his border “useless feeders.”

          • Who?

            Or perhaps worry about slimy nobodies who peddle fear for their own amusement. Or financial gain.

            HK hasn’t been on deck for quite a while. And you might think of him as a statesman-sounds about your speed-but not everyone agrees.

          • Nick Sanders

            You can’t even get the quote right, why the hell should anyone listen to your claptrap?

            There is literally nothing any government anywhere stands to gain from destroying it’s own population. Unless you think shrinking the tax base, labor force, military recruitment pool, and economy are something they’d want to do, because rational people love not just shooting themselves in the foot, but jumping on landmines.

        • Rachele Willoughby

          Wow… that’s… um… crazy even for an antivaxxer. Are there some medications you should take?

    • Nick Sanders
      • spinneywebber

        I clicked on your link and it is so absolutely lame I have to quote it for the people who won’t bother.
        His case boils down to this:
        First, he says “There are several problems with this idea.”
        and goes on to list only two (non) problems! Several=two in his world. OK, clearly he has no axe to grind. (sarcasm)
        “The first is that Zika virus
        was a rare virus in humans until very recently. Also, further analysis
        of the outbreak in French Polynesia has shown an increase in neurological defects
        in babies during that time.”
        First of all, Zika fever is a relatively mild disease of limited scope, with
        only one in five persons developing symptoms, and with no fatalities. In other words, the actual rate of infection is is not easily known, so he has no business asserting that, especially since no one has been running around the equatorial region testing for it.
        It is also important to note that “neurological defects” aren’t microencephaly, and more importantly, this has no bearing on the issue at hand if no comparison is made regarding vaccination practices in French Polynesia. Were those pregnant women vaccinated as well? He doesn’t say.

        His second problem: “Another problem is that the Tdap vaccine
        has never been associated with microcephaly and Brazil has had a 20-fold increase in cases since the outbreak began.”
        I don’t know what he thinks this proves, but when there is a 20-fold increase in a disease associated with mercury poisoning in fetuses (NY Times), and it begins about 10 months after a new program of injecting pregnant woman with vaccinations laced with mercury, it actually implicates the vaccination program.

        The obvious prudent course of action would be to stop vaccinating the pregnant woman and see if it goes away.

  • Ruth Shoemaker

    I smell a rat. There is certainly a lot of hoopla about the dangers of the before now mild Zika virus and the need for a worldwide vaccination program. The lack of data that ought to be in evidence before such a concern makes me wonder. All these tragic but localized cases of microcephaly in northeastern Brazil where pregnant mothers were mandated to receive the vaccine Boostrix developed recently after a WHO sponsored technology transfer between GSK and the Butantan Institute in Brazil ought to be examined. After all, it’s a complicated process and higher than normal concentrations of endotoxins can result from imperfect chemistry. If there is blame here you won’t hear it from the WHO, GSK or Butantan, who by the way, just received a commission from the government to produce a vaccine against Zika. Go figure.

    • yugaya

      “All these tragic but localized cases of microcephaly in northeastern
      Brazil where pregnant mothers were mandated to receive the vaccine
      Boostrix developed recently after a WHO sponsored technology transfer
      between GSK”

      Wut? And next time – bother to read the comments, all that bullshit you just posted has been turned inside out and dismembered already. Multiple times because you idiots just keep copy/pasting the same sources.

      • Ruth Shoemaker

        Everything I put down was researched by me and is accurate. Look for yourself.

        • yugaya

          “Researched” by you? You research vaccines? Where, in your basement?

          I’m so glad none of my neighbours have such deadly hobbies.

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            immature

          • yugaya

            You claimed to be “doing your own research” of vaccines – in order to do that, besides extensive and relevant scientific training and education, you do need a BSL-4 facility.

            Or if you’re and antivaxxer idiot, you will think that googling shit up is totes the same thing.

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            my my

          • Azuran

            You a the one who claimed that you researched something yourself and that it was accurate without any kind of review of your findings by anyone and without actually posting your research.
            That’s the argumentative level of a 3 years old.

        • Charybdis

          Researched by YOU!?!? Where is your peer review? Where is your data? Where are charts and graphs? Powerpoint presentation?

          You sure as hell won’t take our word on anything relating to this subject, yet you INSIST that we take your word as gospel? Because it has been “researched by me and is accurate”?!?!

          *Deep breath*
          BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          *Gasp*
          BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

          • Nick Sanders

            See, this is why I just post that video of Mandark.

        • Azuran

          So, in what medical paper are you publishing the result of your study? Was it peer reviewed?

        • Nick Sanders
    • Green Fish

      Here we go again:

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5 and 8.

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TDap a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So, now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TDap and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This whole TDap thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier if they were due to TDap.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TDap. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TDap this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TDap you have to bend the timeline so much, and you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t make sense.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a big population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TDap, it just doesn’t work.

      PS: Could you please link to a source that a commission(?) has been given to create a vaccine?
      The last information I have is that after a proper research has been done whether the Zika virus is really responsible for the microcephaly cases, and if that points to Zika, there will be tests with general anti-virus medication.

      • Ruth Shoemaker

        Possible bad batch and Google Butantan for new Zika vaccine developement.

        • yugaya

          Expert amidst alert! Please do link your research papers that collaborate your theories.

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            It’s all at your fingertips. Get to work.

          • yugaya

            No thanks, I’m not an idiot and that is why I don’t “do my own vaccine research” via keyboard.

          • Charybdis

            But if your are simply DYING to prove us all wrong, why don’t you post your links or a summary of their findings along with a citation? We will not do your work for you; if you are insisting that certain things are true, then you’d better be ready to back up those claims and engage in some debate about the findings.

            For a group that INSISTS that people educate themselves, pull their collective heads out of the sand and SEE THE REAL TRUTH!, you are certainly reticent to share this earth-shattering, paradigm-changing information.

            Perhaps we need a decoder ring, secret handshake or some such.

          • Nick Sanders
        • Green Fish

          OK, I did that.
          And it doesn’t back up your claims.
          http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-zika-idUSKCN0V30U6
          Or is the “commission” you’re talking about that Butantan as a state-owned nonprofit needs money to do research?

          Other drug companies like GSK apparently aren’t sure if they want to join in because of the “uncertain commercial prospects”.

          So, the Zika virus should not be investigated by a non-profit institution in the area where the outbreak is happening? Or what is it you want to say?

        • Green Fish

          And about the possible “bad batch”:
          It would still have to administered in the 1st and 2nd trimester.
          The timeline still doesn’t match (see my longer post above).

          • yugaya

            That’s the first thing health authorities look into – the possibility of a contamination incident. No link and that possibility has been investigated and found to be zero possible.

          • Graceds

            There is that.

        • Azuran

          You do realize that every single vaccine batch has a lot number right. If it was a faulty batch, then all women affected would have received the same lot and they would have noticed that.

          • Graceds

            I don’t know if it is different in Brazil, but in the US they deliberately spread out the lots so “hot lots” won’t be as easily noted.
            That happened after several children died.
            “In 1978-79, eleven babies were found to have died within eight days of a DPT vaccination. Nine of the eleven had been vaccinated with the same lot of pertussis vaccine, Wyeth #64201 and five (four from the same lot) had died within twenty-four hours of vaccination.”
            (From A Shot in the Dark).
            This is a copy of the Wyeth memo.
            http://www.ageofautism.com/images/2008/08/11/wyeth79photo_3.jpg

          • Azuran

            They don’t do it deliberately. Vaccine lots will be spread around the country depending on who purchases them at the same time. If 10 facilities around the country make a purchase at the same time. 1-2 lots will be separated and sent to those location. If those 10 facilities happen to be in the same state, those same 1-2 lots will all be sent to that same state.
            And the example you just pulled out proves one thing: They are able to track their vaccine properly. So If the microcephaly was caused by a faulty batch, they would have seen it already.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            …you’re using a meme from Age of Autism.

            As an Austic woman I’d really like to know when the Hell people like you are going to stop using people like me as your personal boogymen. Because I’m not the picture of woe and lack of ability to live on my own that you want me to be. A lot of autistics aren’t, actually.

            Life is hard enough for people like myself when people whisper behind our backs or say things right to our face because they think all autistic people are invalids so I can’t possible be autistic saying we’re violent, incapable of empathy, better off “cured”, and the worst thing that can happen to a child.

            I’m rather happy with who I am not because of my autism but it is something that contributed to the person I am. I’d appreciate if ableist like yourself wouldn’t commandeer our lives for your little crusade of anti-science.

            So if you’d like me to even remotely take you seriously, you won’t use sources from Age of Autism, Autism Speaks, or any other organization whose goals are to present autistics as inherently broken human beings.

          • Graceds

            I am using noone.
            I pointed out the policy in the US and the supporting document.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Your picture is hot linked from age of autism. I’m autistic, not stupid.

          • Graceds

            It is a photo of a Wyeth document.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Right click and check the source. It shows hotlinks in my inbox.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Unless you’re not checking the sources of your documents.

          • Graceds

            http://www.epi.alaska.gov/bulletins/docs/b1979_06.htm
            Here is some more info about the hot lot.
            I peruse many sources for information.

          • Megan

            OK, but so what? What does the recall of a lot of DPT vaccine (a different vaccine from the Tdap that everyone’s been discussing) in 1979 have to do with anything? What is your point?

          • Graceds

            People were discussing the possibility of a bad batch of a Vaccine(s).
            I commented on that.
            What is your point, other than to be rude

          • Megan

            Actually, you were discussing the possibility of a bad batch. Vaccine lots are tracked. As has already been addressed by other commenters, if that was the issue, it would be known already. What’s really rude is to lie about your sources.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your thoughts.

          • sabelmouse

            i keep wondering who megan is.

          • Megan

            I am a regular person. Not exactly sure what your trying to imply.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So your example demonstrates that, when confronted with a bad batch, those powers that be admit it and try to resolve it.

            How does that support the claim that the government is covering up a vaccine problem?

            Moreover, who discovered it was a bad batch in the first place? Hint: it wasn’t a bunch of blowhard anti–vaxxers.

            You morons are so desperate to throw shit against the wall, you don’t even realize that it contradicts your entire premise.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your thoughts.

          • Neya

            And the cases in Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, and the rest of Central America? Where they caused by the same batch of vaccines?

          • Graceds

            I didn’t say any were caused by a single batch of vaccines.
            Or even vaccines in general.
            Calm down.
            It’s a discussion.
            Exchange of ideas.
            Asking questions.
            Even getting a few answers.
            It’s all good.

          • Neya

            So, does it mean that you are putting the bad-vaccine theory to rest?

          • Graceds

            I don’t think it’s important to anyone but you.
            You seem to have an agenda.

          • Neya

            An all-encompassing agenda that is going to take my mechanical engineering career to new heights.

          • Graceds

            Best wishes on your career.

          • sabelmouse

            i am pretty sure of that.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Cut the crap.

            Don’t come in here with the wide eyed, innocent “But I’m just asking questions!” when even the briefest perusal of your posting history shows you’ve very clearly made up your mind where you stand on vaccines.

            Maybe you parachuting “questioners” should try hiding your true color-I mean posting history.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your wide eyed thoughts.
            My stance on vaccines is pro choice.

          • Neya

            Well, it matters a bit more to me because I am South American.

          • Graceds

            I wish you the best.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            And yet don’t seem to check them very well.

            Sorry if it’s petty but once someone uses a site like Age of Autism, intentionally or not, I find it hard to take them seriously.

          • Graceds

            Being petty is your privilege.

          • momofone

            It isn’t petty to expect some degree of discernment in choosing sources, and in making sure those sources are credible.

          • Graceds

            As I did.

          • momofone

            You clearly believe you did, but that does not equal having done so.

          • Graceds

            We’re each entitled to an opinion.

          • momofone

            Has that been challenged?

          • Nick Sanders

            But not to your own facts.

          • Graceds

            Why are you so frightened?
            I assumed there was no connection between Zika and vaccination before coming to this site, but the attempts to smear everyone who comments is making me think otherwise.

          • Nick Sanders

            Sure you did, that’s why you immediately launched into talking about how bad vaccines are, and are like a dog with a bone, despite having been shown repeatedly that it’s completely impossible for this to in any way related to TDaP. But not, you’re just a neutral observe who’s “just asking questions”.

          • Graceds

            I do ask questions.
            I make no apologies if that offends you.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Megan

            Right here it is:

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/08/by-dan-olmsted.html

            It certainly didn’t come from your basement.

          • Graceds

            Your dislike of ageofautism doesn’t make the Wyeth document not a Wyeth document.
            This is the story of a family damaged by a “hot lot.”

            http://karenkain.com/my-letter-to-the-oregon-state-officials/

          • Megan

            I didn’t comment on age of autism at all. I’m simply showing that you’re lying about your sources.

          • momofone

            Follow the link, and you’ll see that it is from ageofautism.

          • Nick Sanders

            As another autistic person, I wish Age of Autism and Autism Speaks would burn to the ground.

    • Megan

      Boostrix has been around for over 10 years. It is not new at all.

      • yugaya

        Some people seem to have just learned to read ( albeit barely), maybe that’s why everything is so new to them.

      • Ruth Shoemaker

        Not the product produced by Butanan and distributed in Brazil.

        • Megan

          Can you show it’s different? It has the same brand name, which is copyrighted .

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            A cook a book does not make. Get it?

          • Megan

            Nope. And clearly you can’t back up your assertions.

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            have you looked yet?

          • yugaya

            Looked where for what? Proof you’re spouting nonsense? Try scrolling down through comments.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            You came koolaid manning in here shitting assertions all over the place. The burden is proof is on you.

          • BeatriceC

            I’m stealing this meme.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Google Logical Fallacy Ref. There are tons of them. I especially like the Godwin’s Law ones.

          • Medwife

            “Too many Hitlers on the field!” I believe? I love these.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Yes, that one! I had to bite my cheek not to laugh out loud, very loudly, in a very public place when I first saw it.

          • BeatriceC

            I just want you to know I burned dinner on account of those memes. I’m sure I can blame you somehow.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            But was it totally worth it is the question!

          • Megan

            I’m happy to look at whatever citations you have to back up your claims. Just as soon as you provide them…

          • Nick Sanders

            Because manufacturers are all hilariously incompetent.

          • yugaya

            The GSK/Butanan Institute bit is dug up from previous vaccine conspiracy theories. they’ve been barking up that (wrong) tree for years while failing to understand the basics: http://entente-health.eu/Networking_Area/Staff_Exchange/Hosting_Organisations/TTO/Instituto-Butantan.kl

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            Three new agreements were recently signed between international laboratories and the Butantan Institute for the development and production of vaccines against human papillomavirus (HPV) and hepatitis A with Merck Sharp & Dohme (MSD) and against acellular pertussis with GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) through technology transfer. Excerpt from:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4080994/#pntd.0002862-Ho1

          • Megan

            “Technology transfer is a complex, multifaceted, and delicate process that involves not only transferring basic knowledge but also techniques for quality control and quality guarantees, the domination of regulatory processes, clinical studies to guarantee the adequacy of the products, and the capacity to adapt to local conditions, all done while renovating and updating production facilities to international quality standards. The Butantan Institute industrial complex was installed in 1998 and inaugurated in 2007; it is capable of producing vaccines against various influenza virus subtypes, such as H1N1, swine flu, H5N1, and avian flu. Just four years later in 2011, the Institute delivered the first lot of vaccines against influenza entirely produced in Brazil and received a certificate of good production practices from the Brazilian National Agency of Public Health (ANVISA) in 2012. This was the first successful technological transfer completed in Brazil between Sanofi-Pasteur and the Butantan Institute [26]. Three new agreements were recently signed between international laboratories and the Butantan Institute for the development and production of vaccines against human papillomavirus (HPV) and hepatitis A with Merck Sharp & Dohme (MSD) and against acellular pertussis with GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) through technology transfer.”

            That means that the companies who make the vaccines in other countries are teaching them at the Butantan Institute how to make the SAME VACCINE in their own country. They are not new vaccines. That’s why it’s called “technology TRANSFER.”

    • Mariana

      Butantan is one of the most respected institutions in Brazil, they are also government owned and not for profit… So they can’t get a “commision”. They have been producing vaccines and medicine for snake bites (sorry, don’t know how to say this in English) for decades. The vaccines the pregnant women received in the northeast is the same as the one given in the southeast (central govermnet program). And we don’t have as many cases of microcephalic babies in the southeast, where the zika virus has only very recently arrived. We do have the mosquito and dengue fever, so now that the virus is here we think it’s going to spread fast,

      • kfunk937

        Medicine for snakebites: Antivenin (or anti venom or antivenene).Unsurprisingly, the antivaxxers have yet to explain how TDap travels backward in time to cause microcephaly.

        • Mariana

          Thanks!

        • crazy grad mama

          Unknown side effect of vaccines: time travel.

          • kfunk937

            Does that mean I can retire my TARDIS?Waitaminute. Somebody please quick file a new VAERS report on this adverse effect! Add to the scientific literature documenting such rare but serious injuries as displaying stigmata and walking on water, not to mention turning into Wonder Woman or The Hulk.

          • crazy grad mama

            The best part about VAERS is that we could actually file this report.

      • Graceds

        So the northeast had more microcephaly?

        • Mariana

          Yes, as far as we know the northeast concentrate most of the cases of microcephaly. That is how then Connection between zika and microcephaly was first made. Zika appeared first in the northeast. The perversity is that this is the poorest region in Brazil… The one with worse living conditions and medical care. We just don’t know what will happen to those babies and how they will be cared for.

          The government is now giving out mosquito repelant to pregnant women at pre natal appointments in hopes of avoiding zika (and dengue)

          • Ruth Shoemaker

            It’s also where the highest uptake of Butantan’s Dtap has been distributed.

          • yugaya

            “It’s also where the highest uptake of Butantan’s Dtap has been distributed.”

            Source for that claim:

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I hope Ruth remembers that pictures of her butt are not permitted

          • Who?

            Amen to that.

          • Graceds

            Thanks for your response.

    • Nick Sanders
    • spinneywebber

      you’re right.
      This chat board is an echo chamber of drug company issued talking points to cover their asses.
      Despite the mutual love-fest, the debate is not going very well for them though.

      • Nick Sanders
      • demodocus

        Actually, we’re shills for the obstetricians. You did notice the point of the blog past this basically one-off post?

        • Megan

          We’re multipurpose shills. Don’t forget that we’re all formula manufacturer shills too!

          • demodocus

            Oh, of course! How could I have forgotten

          • PeggySue

            What I want to know is, where are my checks from all these folks I’m shilling for.

          • Who?

            Slimy Spinney said he knows for a fact they can’t afford to pay us, we just are tagging along.

            A bit like an anti-vaxxer relying on herd immunity, really.

        • spinneywebber

          which is why it’s so shameful you are all shilling for a product when even its manufacturer makes no claims of its safety:
          “”Pregnant Women:
          Adequate human data on the use of BOOSTRIX® during pregnancy are not available.”
          Shameful….first do no harm my a#$.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Who?

            I love that film.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            If you cared about first do not harm you would stop advocating for a position that endangers everyone

          • demodocus

            Dearie, I *am* a pregnant woman. I will be getting the TDap in several weeks just like I did 2 years ago with her big-headed big brother. Because I trust my ob and pcp more than i trust random persons on the internet. Not that you believe me

      • Who?

        But do tell us more about vaccines injected into the bloodstream.

        And then go and respond to Green Fish who has helpfully posted some material for you to read.

        But you can’t, can you?

        You have nothing but trivial rudeness and wrong assertions.

        • spinneywebber

          what part of

          “Pregnant Women:
          Adequate human data on the use of BOOSTRIX
          ®
          during pregnancy are not available.” (manufacturer’s information)
          do you not understand?

          And exactly why are you so gung-ho in favor of jabbing pregnant women (and their fetuses) with an entirely untested substance?

          Oh, and, by the way, be sure to read my newsflash on the FACT that only 6 of the 270 confirmed cases of microcephaly tested positive for Zika virus.
          I guess your pet theory was wrong.
          Better start working overtime to come up with a new cover story for your Pharma-masters, ause it’s looking worse for their vaccination programs.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Who?

            That information is available, you just don’t agree with it.

            Me gung-ho? Certainly not. I’m very cautious, which is why doing all possible to protect tiny vulnerable babies from pertussis, is important.

            Your newsflash is based on an unreliable test, which if it went the other way you would be deriding all around town, and reported in the Daily Fail.

            Your position relies on flaky evidence, from flaky people, and is communicated by a slimy fake.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Rubella is a mild, self limiting disease that is highly teratogenic

    • Who?

      It’s not a rat, it’s the rancid odour of Slimy Spinney, and Randal and sabelmouse and all the other self appointed Big Smells from anti vax world out to play.

    • kellymbray

      Have you ever taken a college level chemistry class? No? Why am I not surprised?

  • Tee Joy
    • yugaya

      It’s 2:13 PM where I live. Why do you think I need to wake up?

    • Azuran

      Just woke up.
      So……someone is selling zika virus? Well yea, if you want to study virus, you need viruses. Where do you think research facilities get their samples? Get your head out of your ass.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      There are many reasons to patent viruses. For control purposes so they cannot be obtained by just anyone. For availability purposes so that they are available for everyone qualified to study. Also so that one company cannot hold the patent and control all the research. Stop being paranoid

  • Green Fish

    BBC has a nice information snippet on the Zika virus here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03g0d7b#play
    (starts at 1:09).
    In this they put the first cases of microcephaly at October 2014, not 2015. I don’t know if it is a typo or not.
    But anyway, the language of the program is easy to understand, they explain very nicely why a link between Zika and microcephaly is not proven yet, but why it it is suspected and how science goes about finding out what causes it.

  • demodocus

    Just ran across this blog article and thought the regulars might find it interesting. http://themadvirologist.blogspot.com/2016/01/debunking-myths-surrounding-zika-virus.html?m=1

  • spinneywebber

    The theory linking Zika to microcephaly is largely based on the fact that they found the Zika virus in a baby with microcephaly following an autopsy of the dead child. The virus was also found in the amniotic fluid of two mothers whose babies had the condition.
    However, as many on this thread like to point out, correlation does not imply causation.
    In late 2014, the Ministry of Health of Brazil announced the introduction of the Tdap (Tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis) vaccine for all pregnant women in that country as part of its routine vaccination program. The Tdap vaccine used in Brazil contains the mercury preservative Thimerosal.
    NY Times:
    “Microcephaly is rare, and it has many other causes, including infection of the fetus with rubella (German measles), cytomegalovirus or toxoplasmosis; poisoning of the fetus by alcohol, mercury or radiation.”

    A new study found that primates that received just ONE vaccination containing thimerosal had significant neurological impairment when compared with those who received a saline solution injection or no injection at all.

    And we’re supposed to all be afraid of the Zika virus now?
    Yeah, right.
    How about a study comparing the offspring of unvaccinated pregnant women with Zika to the offspring of vaccinated pregnant women with Zika?
    As they just introduced the program in 2014, there are sure to be many who have not complied and were not vaccinated, should be easy to do.
    You can be sure no one will fund that study, and if somebody bothers and links the vaccine with the microencephaly, their study will never see the light of day. The rabid vaxxers would never allow it, they have to be right at all costs.
    Sad day for medical science.

    • Who?

      Do tell us more, much more, about how vaccines are injected into the bloodstream, and share all you know about semantics and grammar (don’t worry readers, that won’t take long, though he may divert into remarks about ladies’ underwear).

      Mind you, if his understanding of those topics is as sketchy as his understanding of vaccines, we’re in for a laugh. Unfortunately he is afflicted with prolixity, so it won’t be quick.

      Smart, thoughtful people who are seeking answers will read what various posters have to say, and compare the thoughtful and measured remarks from the people actually concerned about and interested in zika with your vaccine obsessed reactivity, pettiness and silly little rudenesses, and they will make their own judgments.

      • demodocus

        Yeah, he’s not one of the people i’m listening to. I’ll be receiving my TDap in a couple months, and in the profoundly unlikely event that my daughter’s head did shrink a little, well, then she might be closer to 50% than her brother was.
        oh, childbirth is going to hurt again…

        • Charybdis

          Can you request a CS? It is exchanging one type of risk for another type, but you wouldn’t have to push a large-headed baby out of your nether regions again.

          • demodocus

            I dunno. I suppose part of it will be the more technical results from the anatomy exam. I also have an echocardiogram at the end of the month; i’ve been short of breath under mild exertion since i was 4 or 5 weeks pregnant. Couldn’t that have an effect, too, depending on the results?

          • Charybdis

            I would think so. It might play into the “CS for mother’s safety” camp. I mean, if you are getting short of breath under mild exertion, can you imagine how bad it would be if you were pushing for an extended period of time?

          • demodocus

            trying not to freak my crazy self out more than necessary just now by imagining labor.

      • spinneywebber

        pants still in a bunch?
        Why am I not surprised you object (by avoiding the issue – clear politician tactics) to a study that would either show you’re wrong or right?
        Only an idiot objects to studying something to learn more.
        Zika virus…always been there.
        Vaccinating pregnant women…just introduced in 2014.
        Gee, I wonder which it might be?

        • Nick Sanders
        • Azuran

          The virus has not always been ‘there’. The virus came from asia/africa and was only introduced in south america in 2015.
          In south america, it is a totally new virus where virtually 100% of the population is susceptible and has no immunity to it.
          It makes sense that in asia/africa, you don’t see that many cases of microcephaly due to the virus, since most people are likely to have been exposed and develop immunity during their childhood. They are unlikely to be exposed for the first time during a pregnancy.
          But in south america, nobody is immune. This allows the virus to spread faster, since basically everyone who is infected will develop the disease and therefore allow for more people to be infected, and all the pregnant women who are exposed are at a very high risk of developing the disease because they have never been exposed to it before.

    • DaisyGrrl

      Okay, so a couple of problems with your theories. First, if the Tdap was introduced nationally, why are the microcephaly cases in a geographically defined area that also neatly fits over the geographic area of known Zika cases? What is your theory, that these women received a bad batch, that these are the only women in Brazil who consented to vaccination, or that doctors in this part of Brazil are ignoring all the guidelines and exclusively vaccinating in the first and second trimester? I would expect that if the problem were in the vaccine, we’d see a wider geographic spread for the index cases and more proof that the doctors are as stupid as you’re claiming. Women would be coming forward in droves demanding compensation from the doctors and the government of Brazil would be heavily pushing the drug company to pay damages.

      You bring up thimerosal. Assuming, for one moment, that I agreed with your argument that thimerosal is the worst thing ever, can you provide a link that demonstrates these vaccines contain thimerosal? Because my understanding is that Brazil was using GSK’s vaccine, which doesn’t contain thimerosal.

      Also, I’d love to read the study about thimerosal and primates. Can you provide a link or a citation? Thanks.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Sullivan ThePoop

      They discovered the Zika virus many ways. Not just through autopsies. Microcephaly is quite common in countries with high rates of infectious diseases like African countries. Which could be why microcephaly was not identified in Zika outbreaks in African countries. Brazil has a low rate of microcephaly so it was easier to spot there. The rest of your post is just nonsense.

    • Neya

      And, how about the cases in the rest of South and Central America? Were they caused by the same vaccines? I get it now. That must be why Panama is advising women not to get pregnant until 2018. That way they can inject them with terrible vaccines. sarcasm.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        This is a great point that I have been meaning to mention. All the talk of the mandatory vaccines in Brazil fails to address the cases in other countries in South America? They didn’t have the change in vaccination recommendations. So why are they being affected?

        Hmmm, what could be something that could affect all the region….?

      • Azuran

        Dont you get it? It’s all part of their plan to control population!!!!! You give people a vaccine causing birth defect, which scares the population into not having children anymore. (sarcasm)

  • Green Fish

    Looks like in a few months the situation in Columbia will give us more data concerning a link between Zika and microzephaly:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35450644
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/zika-colombia-numbers-1.3427235
    🙁

    • yugaya

      The sad part is the more evidence and science happens, the bigger the conspiracy theories get.

  • Megan

    I seriously wish that the anti-vax parachuters would:

    1) Read the comments before they post the exact same comment that 10 others have already posted (and already been refuted).

    2) Stop confusing DTaP with TDaP. DTaP is given to children, not adults/pregnant women. TDaP is given to adults and pregnant women in their third trimester.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I seriously wish that the anti-vax parachuters would:

      1) Read the comments before they post the exact same comment that 10 others have already posted (and already been refuted).

      Then again, it’s fitting. I mean, anti-vaxxers spew the same old garbage over and over as if we’ve never heard it a hundred times before. They all think that they have some great privileged information as if they are clever or something. In contrast, it’s crap we’ve heard over and over…

      • Megan

        That’s true. Their biggest skill is copy and paste.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          No, their biggest skill is spamming the internet with their drivel. It’s like these morons do searches for anyone who mentions vaccines so they can parachute in with their nonsense. How do all these losers suddenly find their way into SOB? These aren’t people who are looking for Zika information, they are coming here because the blog mentioned it, and they have to swarm.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      Or use this handy primer before shitting all over the thread. That’d be nice too.

    • Bombshellrisa

      Also stop referring to vaccines as being “injected into the bloodstream”. Anyone who mentions “bloodstream” as a route for a Dtap/Tdap (or other vaccine) is not someone who is “researched”, “educated” or “informed”.

      • spinneywebber

        OK, Bill Clinton, master of medical semantics.
        the vaccine that is injected ends up in the blood stream where it does it’s thing so there is no difference. Why are you quibbling about some detail that no-one cares about?

        • Who?

          It isn’t semantics. Explaining things clearly matters, and you don’t know what you are talking about.

          • spinneywebber

            Now don’t go gettin your pants all in a bunch, it’s just that most people, when talking about a vaccine, if someone says it was injected into the bloodstream, they understand by the context that the vaccine was injected and ends up in the bloodstream. I mean come on, who ever heard of a nurse asking you to find a vein on their kid’s arm in order for her to mainline the vaccine?

            OCD much, grammar princess??

          • Who?

            It’s not grammar either.

            You were wrong. Again.

            And your response to being wrong isn’t the appropriate, and endearing ‘oops, I’m a goofball’, it’s ‘you’re ocd, you knew what I meant, boo hoo I’m a pathetic sook who doesn’t know anything but you should all listen to me.’

            Just while I’m continuing to set you straight, my underwear is, as always, immaculate and in perfect position. The only one with anything in a bunch is you, and my good nature and good taste prevents me from specifying what tiny tiny part of your crapulous anatomy that might be.

          • spinneywebber

            Wow, it really is in a bunch.
            Good luck with that.
            And the OCD grammar thing.
            (and being wrong about vaccines)

          • Who?

            It’s great this is so near the top.

            One of the best things you antivax nuts do is scare the uncertain back into the arms of science with your arrogance, your incapacity to learn, and your moral and intellectual shallowness.

            You have helped some fence sitter to decide to do the safe, the right, the responsible thing, and vaccinate, so as to not be like you.

            And for that, which is a monstrous failure for you, I salute you.

          • spinneywebber

            there you go again…
            “Vaccinate – because it’s the right thing to do and because I believe in it. (and I’m hoping it will help me get my pants out of a bunch).”

          • Who?

            It is the right thing to do. Not that your moral, intellectual or social conscience is capable of understanding that.

            Your obsession with underwear is bordering on the unwell. I guess when you don’t see something often it becomes very interesting.

            If you are hoping to get banned, and all your silly comments deleted, you’ll need to do a lot more than that.

          • momofone

            Last night my son and I watched Home (the movie). Spinney reminds me a lot of the Boov leader, Captain Smeck. “I am the leader, and I said this, and it’s TRUUUUUUUUE!”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Don’t drink the lemonade!!!

        • Charybdis

          But words do matter. And vaccines are not “injected into the bloodstream”. That gives an incorrect picture of what happens and invites people to draw improper conclusions.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It’s a logical fallacy known as “poisoning the well.” It’s an attempt to make them sound sinister and evil so to influence opinion.

            Saying intermuscular is right, but doesn’t make vaccines sound evil

        • Nick Sanders

          Actually, site of injection is very important for how the injection is processed by the body. And vaccines are not intravenous injections, they are intramuscular.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, it actually “does it’s thing” in a draining lymph node. When you are eating something do you say you are putting it into your bloodstream? No? That is not semantics. It is an important distinction

    • Marek Slivanský

      And AFAIK, in Brazil TDaP was compulsory given to pregnant women in their 1st and 2nd trimester.

      • Marek Slivanský
        • yugaya

          Please quote the original (and preferably official) source that says “in Brazil TDaP was compulsory given to pregnant women in their 1st and 2nd trimester.”

          Hint: you can’t

          • Marek Slivanský

            It is mentioned on a some sites which I read at first:
            https://www.google.cz/search?q=tdpa+pregnant+brazil+22+weeks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=KSOuVrObHIPMyAPQpbUg

            But as I digged further I found the recommendation 27-36 weeks valid also for Brasil.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, you read it on anti-vax sites and believed it. That’s why you have a problem

          • Marek Slivanský

            Why are you so offending? I don’t have a problem, just being curious.

          • yugaya

            Those are all second, third and umptieth hand antivaxx sources mostly in English.

            I will welcome ANY link to Brazil official, institutional source even in original language that says ” “in Brazil TDaP was compulsory given to pregnant women in their 1st and 2nd trimester.”

        • Nick Sanders
          • Marek Slivanský

            Thanks for the link, inspiring reading.

      • Who?

        You know wrong.

        Not that any amount of information to the contrary is likely to convince you.

        • Marek Slivanský

          I’m seeking information about both points of view to make a picture by myself.

          • Who?

            Read Greenfish’s comments below.

            Ignore Spinney whoever, he is a moron.

            And if you really want to learn, suggest don’t assert, and read before diving in.

          • Marek Slivanský

            I’m new to Disqus – is there a way to expand whole discussion? I’ve clicked “Load more comments” at least 10 times without any luck to find Greenfish’s or Spinney’s comments :/

          • demodocus

            Probably because all the parachuters are about to blow up this one.

          • yugaya

            You may want to pick up some art lessons then .

      • Marek Slivanský

        Protecting pregnant women is especially critical, Dr. Sonja Rasmussen, a public health specialist and editor of the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report,
        told the meeting. Getting the measles-mumps-rubella (M.M.R.) vaccine
        before pregnancy and the flu shot and tetanus-diphtheria-pertussis
        (TDAP) vaccine during pregnancy “is a two-for-one benefit that protects
        both mothers and their babies,” she said.

        http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/03/pregnancy-is-the-best-time-for-some-vaccines/?_r=0

        Vaccinating pregnant women? WTF!

        • Who?

          Read what smart people who know all about it have to say. Green Fish would be a great start.

          • Marek Slivanský

            Arright, he’s not “GreenFish” but “Green Fish”. Got it.

          • Who?

            Spinney is a moron. Who can’t say something in two words where 10 come to him.

            Save your time and sanity.

        • Megan

          There are very sound reasons for vaccinating pregnant women and the two vaccinations routinely given in pregnancy (flu and Tdap) have been shown to be safe during pregnancy. MMR is not given during pregnancy because it is a live vaccine (In fact, live vaccines are contraindicated in pregnancy), but it is important to have prior to pregnancy to prevent congenital rubella and its consequences. Tdap is given late in pregnancy to confer passive immunity to the baby so they don’t get pertussis when they are a newborn and are very susceptible to dying from it or its complications. Flu can be dangerous in pregnancy and there is also some passive flu immunity provided to the baby when mom gets vaccinated during pregnancy.

          I have received both flu and Tdap vaccines during this pregnancy and I feel thankful that my pregnancy gives me an excuse to boost my own pertussis coverage in addition to protecting my unborn baby and my family.

        • yugaya

          “Vaccinating pregnant women? WTF!”

          Yes – to protect both them and their unborn babies. Isn’t science amazing?

          • lifebiomedguru

            Yes, science is amazing. But vaccinating pregnant women to induce an immune reaction is crazy. The #1 adverse event from vaccines is febrile illness. Pregnant women should avoid it from vaccines for the same reason they should avoid getting infections. And they should certainly avoid thimerosal – so why does the CDC insist that pregnant women, but no one else, receive flu vaccine with thimerosal?

          • Nick Sanders

            You know what’s crazier? Letting babies die of easily preventable illnesses.

          • Marek Slivanský

            BOOSTRIX (TDaP used in Brazil) prescribing information:
            Safety and effectiveness of BOOSTRIX have not been established in pregnant women (8.1)

            https://www.gsksource.com/pharma/content/dam/GlaxoSmithKline/US/en/Prescribing_Information/Boostrix/pdf/BOOSTRIX.PDF

            Me being a pregnant woman, I wouldn’t risk it..

        • Charybdis

          “Vaccinating pregnant women? WTF!”

          Care to explain exactly WTF you mean by this?

      • Megan

        Do you have a citation for that? The recommendation for Tdap is between 27-36 weeks and it’s no different in Brazil. Regardless, Tdap has been shown to be safe if all trimesters if needed to be given earlier. A simple pubmed search for “Tdap safety pregnancy” shows this. The only reason one would give Tdap earlier than the recommended window is if mom needed it, say in the case of a puncture wound and tetanus coverage that isn’t up to date. Otherwise it is given in third trimester, not to protect mom (though that’s a nice side benefit), but to create passive immunity to pertussis for the baby.

      • yugaya

        ” in Brazil TDaP was compulsory given to pregnant women in their 1st and 2nd trimester.”

        False. Lie. Not true. Brazilian society of obstetricians recommendation is clear on the timing of the vaccine and it is the same as everywhere else – between 27 and 36 weeks of gestation: http://www.febrasgo.org.br/site/?p=10763

        It was not “compulsory given to pregnant women” btw. If a vaccine is on recommended schedule it does not mean that the police drag people in handcuffs to have them vaccinated.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        No, dTaP is given at 36-37 weeks.

  • SageThinker

    Hmm, i thought this might be about the hypothesis that the Dtap vaccine given to pregnant mothers in Brazil in the correct timeframe to be a cause of microcephaly might be the actual cause of the condition. But it’s not. It’s an anti-anti-vaxxer polemic.

    • yugaya

      Sage Thinker?

      Oh well. We’ve had worse. In fact, I believe we have some on this very blog.

      • SageThinker

        Anything useful to say?

        • Nick Sanders

          How about this: the Tdap doesn’t cause microcephaly, and even if it did, the timeframe is not correct.

        • yugaya

          You first. There’s already almost 800 comments regarding the crap you introduced yourself with.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Sage lead a rat pack of rabid anti-vaxers.

      • Rabid anti-thinkers is more like it.

        • Who?

          They think and think and think, but unfortunately it is unproductive as they are in a loop of nonsense, and the exit sign has been boiled down for a soothing poultice/infusion.

        • IT

          Urrgh…that was an incredibly lame pun.

    • Green Fish

      As people apparently don’t read previous comments and post the same thing again and again, I now just start reposting the short answer I wrote earlier:

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5 and 8.

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TDap a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So, now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TDap and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This whole TDap thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier if they were due to TDap.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TDap. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TDap this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TDap you have to bend the timeline so much, you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t make sense.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TDap, it just doesn’t work.

  • Nick Sanders
  • Nick Sanders
  • spinneywebber

    Cognitive dissonance:

    “Flu vaccine effectiveness study signals ‘no protection’ this year in Canada”
    This year’s flu vaccine offers little or no protection in Canada against becoming sick enough to require medical care.
    “I would say overall it’s signalling no protection,” said lead author Dr. Danuta Skowronski, an influenza expert at the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control.

    But by all means, “get your flu shot, everyone!!”

    • Azuran

      You clearly know nothing about why it didn’t work.
      There are a ridiculous number of strains of flu and they are constantly changing. Flu’s ridiculous tendency to mutate is why it caused so many massive epidemic in the past.
      It takes months to make a vaccine and the strains causing epidemics are constantly changing. If you wait for the epidemic to start before you start producing the vaccine, the epidemic will be over before the vaccine is ready. So you have to start production even before the epidemic starts.
      In order to produce a vaccine, epidemiologist looks at the various active strains and try to predict which ones are most likely to cause the bulk of the epidemic.
      Last year their prediction was wrong. So the vaccine was effective, but not against the most active strains. It happens. Doesn’t make all vaccination (or even flu vaccination) useless.

      • spinneywebber

        You clearly don’t understand cognitive dissonance…you admit the vaccination amounts to nothing more than a “prediction” that has been shown to be often wrong, as predictions often are in the real world, yet you still claim it is sound science to mandate everyone gets jabbed with this year’s “prediction,” because it just might work, by golly.
        That has nothing to do with science and everything to do with companies forcing an ineffective, harmful (because you have to admit a certain number of people will be harmed) product to be injected into the whole population so that they can make a profit.
        This is aside form the FACT that no one knows the consequences of mass vaccinating year after year after year…..

        You have to understand, I wouldn’t even be here if it weren’t for the ASSAULT that is being threatened on the population by the concept of mandatory vaccines.
        You are free to think whatever you like, advise, recommend, but by no means am I willingly giving my consent to the drug company/government alliance to decide what treatments I will be forced to endure.

        • Azuran

          Annual flu vaccination is prediction based on epidemiology. Just like predicting the weather. There is a lot of science behind it, but it’s still not perfect. Like I said. You cannot decide that ALL vaccination is useless because Annual Flu vaccination is not perfect.

          And no one is forcing you to get your flu shot. Don’t get it if you don’t want it. But at least have the decency to stay at home when you are sick so you don’t infect someone with a weaker immune system than you.
          And even if it is not 100% effective. It does reduce the number of cases. It has more benefits than risks, which is why it is still recommended.

          We have been vaccinating for decades, yet no one has seen any negative effect from it. But they are still monitoring. If something eventually comes forth, they will change their recommendations. Just look it up, there have been multiple of cases where medication was found to be responsible for unknown side effect. Those medications where removed from the market and the pharmaceutical companies were held responsible when they hid information. Why do you think they are not being monitored nor held responsible?

          • spinneywebber

            I am not lumping all vaccines together, people who use the defamatory phrase “anti-vaxxers” do that.
            You are clinging to a belief…”No protection” ( Dr. Danuta Skowronski, an influenza expert at the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control) means NO PROTECTION!!
            You can’t understand “no protection” and then say:
            “It does reduce the number of cases. It has more benefits than risks, which is why it is still recommended.”

            “No protection” means it does NOT reduce the number of cases. NO protection means it does NOT have more benefits than risks.

            Do you understand that your reliance on the system to hold pharmaceutical companies responsible is misplaced?
            Are you even aware that pharmaceutical companies, through lobbying, have indemnified themselves to any risks associated with their products? By law, in the US tthey cannot be sued or held financially responsible for any death/dimemberment/harm caused by their products.
            That means they are not being monitored and they will not be held responsible.

          • Azuran

            no protection for ONE YEAR it offers variable degrees of protection each year. The reduced number of cases and death from the overall vaccine still make it worth it even if last year it wasn’t effective.

          • spinneywebber

            As I have said, most vaccines, and the flu vaccine in particular, have never been shown by double blind study to be safe & effective. You can not therefore reasonably accuse me of being unreasonable for refusing vaccines.
            I have shown you clear evidence of one year where the flu shot was shown to offer NO PROTECTION.
            Yet you continue to take the side of those who insist that we should all be forced to get the flu shot.
            You can talk till you’re blue in the face about how much you BELIEVE it is effective, for me the only issue is whether I or anyone or anyone’s children should be FORCED by law to get a state/drug company mandated vaccine.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            I’m not forcing you to get the flu shot. No one is ever going to force you to get the flu shot. I never even got it myself. (I’m basically just too lazy and procrastinate too much and always miss out on the vaccination campaign)
            I still recognize the science and the fact that it has more benefits than risks, even if the protection it gives is sometimes low.
            And that I’m the idiot for not getting it. When I was sick with the flu during Christmas, I didn’t go to a party because my uncle, who is taking chemotherapy for lung cancer, was there. If I had been vaccinated, I probably wouldn’t have been sick at all.

          • Megan

            Where has anyone here argued for mandated vaccination? That hasn’t been mentioned in this post or any of the comments at all( except by you). If that’s your big argument, I think you’re on the wrong post.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m considering doing it out of spite, at this point.

          • Megan

            Disqus may blow up if you do…

          • yugaya

            If I mention that I live in a country with mandatory childhood vaccination schedule and 99% coverage rates will they finally run away and never come back?

          • demodocus

            Isn’t your government full of communist fascists? 😉

          • yugaya

            No, it’s a democratically elected bunch of anti-communists who claim to be anti-fascists too, but technically share power with extreme right wing.

            Normalcy is being clusterfucked where I live politically ATM, but that’s what the democracy part is for, and hopefully we’ll vote them out for good next time.

          • demodocus

            I’m hoping that for certain of our current candidates and political leaders.

          • spinneywebber

            Vaxxers need to be aware of the many new vaccines in the pipeline and the push for legislation making vaccines mandatory by law.
            This is a fascist development and runs contrary to medical ethics (AMA Code of Ethics) as well as everything this country was founded on.
            Spreading fear is always how governments move to take away your rights.
            They are spreading false information to incite vaxxers to be hostile against anti vaxxers because they are afraid of them spreading disease.
            Cowardly and fascist.

          • Megan

            Name one place where vaccines are truly mandatory.

          • Megan

            (In the US, I mean)

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The military.
            Health care professions can be pretty close. For damn good reason, of course

          • Azuran

            Yea, how dare the government ask that people taking care of micropreemies, cancer patients taking chemo or sickly old people be properly vaccinated to avoid infecting them with diseases that might kill them.
            What’s next? They are going to ask us to wash our hands????

          • Megan

            That’s true. I should have been more clear; I meant anyplace where it’s truly mandatory for the general population, eg a widespread mandatory vaccination program in a state.

          • yugaya

            Wow. this Godwin took a while.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Been waiting to pull this one out too!

          • Nick Sanders

            You just get crazier the longer you talk, don’t you? I can’t wait to hear you start rambling about Agenda 21 and FEMA death camps.

          • kellymbray

            “Vaxxers need to be aware of the many new vaccines in the pipeline”

            I doubt you could name any of them. Most are not for infectious diseases.

          • spinneywebber

            already did that.

          • Medwife

            I BELIEVE you should go fuck yourself if you let you and your family get a nice safe ride on herd immunity while you endanger vulnerable members of our society.

          • spinneywebber

            No that’s exactly the kind of ignorance I’ve come to expect from the herd mentality.
            Herd immunity is a myth invented to cover the asses of the vaccine manufacturers since their vaccines don’t work.
            It has been shown conclusively that vaccinated people can be carriers of the disease and vaccinated people have been shown to infect others, including being the source of outbreaks, even among populations that have been vaccinated 98-100%.
            Only an idiot could read that and still be afraid/hostile/threatening to people who think differently and choose not to vaccinate.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Peer researched please.

          • Who?

            So you don’t believe in herd immunity and assert that vax goes into the bloodstream?

            That’s the money shot, doubters. He has no idea what he’s talking about.

          • spinneywebber

            Who “pants in a bunch” is now throwing wild punches as if they mean anything.
            Your choice of words is very telling, by the way:
            doesn’t “believe.”
            See what’s wrong with that picture?
            You’re selling religion, sister. I prefer not to “believe,”
            I prefer evidence.
            As I said, since outbreaks have been shown to originate, propagate, and spread among 98-100% vaccinated populations, your belief in herd immunity is worthless.
            A vaccinated individual contracts the disease, then spreads it among his/her vaccinated peers… not the picture they like us all to see…yet it has happened and it has been documented.
            Your belief is worthless.

          • Who?

            ‘Believe’ was carefully chosen.

            You’ve asserted that vaccines are injected into the bloodstream; this is a wrong belief.

            You’ve asserted there is no such thing as herd immunity-not that you always get the name right, but that aside-another wrong belief.

            You’re quoting 30 year old numbers, selectively. Hilariously, those numbers come from organisations whose publications about today’s numbers you would decry as ‘pharma shill’ materials.

            My belief is irrelevant, since vaccines protect against illness, save lives and protect those with immune deficiencies.

            They protect freeloaders like you too.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Um, nobody’s forcing you to get the flu shot. I chose to get it annually because the benefits outweigh the harms and I don’t want to spread deadly diseases to people less able to handle them.

            But like I told you earlier, feel free to try and sign up for one of these trials. And feel free to decline the rabies vaccine if ever you are told do get it. You’ll die, but I guess that’s better than being a pharma shill.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Hyperbole much?

    • Roadstergal

      Chemtrail shill. You should be ashamed of yourself.

      • spinneywebber

        “Get your flu shot!!”

        • Who?

          Don’t absorb hospital time with your illness if you don’t bother getting immunised against it.

          Or is big pharma good enough to save you when you do get sick?

          • Charybdis

            *clap, clap, clap*. (And I don’t mean gonorrhea)

            Upvote this!

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I did, thank you

          • spinneywebber

            I didn’t, have never, actually, and have never been healthier, haven’t been sick in years…people dropping like flies with the flu all around me, many of whom “got the flu shot.”
            My own personal anecdotal experience, for what it’s worth.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It’s worth nothing

    • guest

      Yes, get it. It’s well known that the flu shot is a gamble every year, since we have to make an educated guess which flu strains will be most active. But it’s a gamble you can’t lose: Either you don’t get the shot, and you have a high risk of getting the flu, or you do get the shot and avoid getting the flu, OR you do get the shot but it doesn’t work that year and you get the flu. But there’s no negative to getting the shot – it might work or it might not, but if it doesn’t you’re no worse off than if you didn’t get it. But if you *do* get it, you might avoid getting the flu and avoid passing it on to immunocompromised and fragile people.

      You seriously can’t lose. Get the flu shot, people.

      • spinneywebber

        Your assumption that there is no risk associated with the flu shot directly contradicts the manufacturer’s warnings, hence you are a fool:

        Serious problems following a flu shot can include the following:

        There may be a small increased risk of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after inactivated flu vaccine. This risk has been estimated at 1 or 2 additional cases per million people vaccinated. This is much lower than the risk of severe complications from flu, which can be prevented by flu
        vaccine.

        Young children who get the flu shot along with pneumococcal vaccine (PCV13), and/or DTaP vaccine at the same time might be slightly more likely to have a seizure caused by fever. Ask your doctor for more information. Tell your doctor if a child who is getting flu vaccine has ever had a seizure.

        Problems that could happen after any injected vaccine:

        People sometimes faint after a medical procedure, including
        vaccination. Sitting or lying down for about 15 minutes can help prevent fainting, and injuries caused by a fall. Tell your doctor if you feel dizzy, or have vision changes or ringing in the ears.

        Some people get severe pain in the shoulder and have difficulty moving the arm where a shot was given. This happens very rarely.

        Any medication can cause a severe allergic reaction. Such reactions from a vaccine are very rare, estimated at about 1 in a million doses, and would happen within a few minutes to a few hours after the vaccination.

        As with any medicine, there is a very remote chance of a vaccine causing a serious injury or death.

        • Who?

          Did you read what you posted? The risk of GBS from the jab is less than the risk of getting it after the flu.

          A child getting any of those illnesses will run a temp, and if they are going to have a seizure, will have it then on top of the illness.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          There has been no increased risk of GBS from any seasonal influenza vaccine since the 1970s. The NVICP pays out for GBS because since the antigens in the flu shot changes so much every year it is cheaper to pay claims than to test every single flu shot formulation for an increased risk.

          • spinneywebber

            big pharma apologist

  • gjyaffe

    A vaccine would be nice, IF there is anything there for it to prevent. Consider the following article (link below), which suggests the possibility that the outburst of microcephaly might be CAUSED BY A VACCINE, one that the government mandated be administered during pregnancy, without thorough advance testing.

    http://yournewswire.com/is-zika-virus-or-the-dtap-vaccine-causing-birth-defects-in-brazil/

    Note that decent epidemiology – IF CONDUCTED – will reveal the answer. Things to examine:
    1. If the Zika virus as been around for quite some time, why would infection with it cause microcephaly only now? What new factors came into play?
    2. As infections with the Zika virus spread to other nations than Brazil, i.e., places where the TDAP vaccine is not mandated during pregnancy, are the rates of microphaly that occur in different populations with different vaccine exposure the same or different?
    3. Brazil could easily suspend the TDAP mandate and observe what happens to the microcephaly rate.

    Mind you, I’m not arguing for or against any particular finding. I’m arguing for decent science, that’s not subject to political or corporate influence.

    • Nick Sanders

      This is like the third time someone has posted this nonsense, you are not adding anything we don’t already know is false.

    • Medwife

      You are a dipshit. Because it would be brilliant for BRAZIL of all places to suspend their TdAP mandate just prior to the Olympics in Rio? Hell, they should ADD some. Like cholera.

    • Green Fish

      And again:

      Contrary to believe the Brazilian doctors aren’t complete morons.
      Here, this is the information they received:
      http://www.cve.saude.sp.gov.br/htm/imuni/pdf/IF14_VAC_DTpa.pdf
      Look especially at page 5 and 8.

      Doctors are told that the vaccine CAN be administered at any time during pregnancy but it is explained very clearly why it should only be done at the end of pregnancy. They had the clear recommendation to only administer it during the third trimester.

      Of course, to make the TDap a suspect in the microcephaly cases it is necessary to have it administered during first and second trimester as the severe cases of microcephaly we see cannot be caused by a vaccination in third trimester.

      For that you would need doctors IN MASSES have disregard the orders for this vaccination program. (Brazilian doctors
      are actually very experienced when it comes to vaccination programs.)

      So, now if you have these two things – suspicion against the TDap and the believe that doctors in masses administered the vaccines to pregnant women in their first and second trimester, your theory still falls flat.
      And you know why?

      Well, look at the paper I linked to again. This whole TDap thing started in October 2014. And even if you say that it might have taken a few weeks to get started, and you take November 2014, the microcephaly cases would have started much earlier if they were due to TDap.
      The timeline doesn’t fit.

      Look, I would be more than happy if it actually was the TDap. I would love to believe it and I’m willing to follow up on any shred of information that is posted here.

      If it was the TDap this whole thing could easily be stopped.
      Brazil could hold the Olympic Games without having to fear that visitors or participants don’t come.
      The opposition could blame the government for harming the population.
      The government could get money from the vaccine producer for their unsafe product (and money would be very welcome).
      It would be a WIN-WIN-WIN for everybody!

      But to even consider the TDap you have to bend the timeline so much, you have to add things like doctors giving the vaccine to women in 1st and 2nd trimester in masses against what they were told.
      It just doesn’t make sense.

      On the other hand we have here the first major outbreak of the Zika virus in a population without immunity. This has never happened before.

      And as people move around the virus spreads much faster than it would in a population that doesn’t leave their villages at all.

      The virus is of the same family and genus as the West Nile Virus.
      You know, the WNV that can also cause microcephaly if the woman gets infected during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.
      (If the infection occurs, it is a chance for microcephaly, just like in many other virus infections during pregnancy a bad outcome doesn’t occur in 100% of cases).

      The timeline fits with the outbreak of Zika.

      So we have one thing that fits, and another thing that has to be bent trying to somehow make it fit.
      As much as I’d like to point to the TDap, it just doesn’t work.

      • Who?

        You’re very patient, and anyone not sure about what to think of all this will benefit from reading what you’re posting.

  • spinneywebber

    All together now, everybody sing “All we are saaaaying…..is give informed consent a chance”

    AMA Code of Medical Ethics – Informed Consent
    “The patient’s right of self-decision can be effectively exercised only if
    the patient possesses enough information to enable an informed choice. The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment.
    A physician cannot withhold information merely because he or she thinks the information may cause the patient to refuse a specific treatment. In other words, a physician must disclose information that a reasonable person would want to have for decision making, even though that information may cause the patient to refuse treatment that the physician believes is in the patient’s best interest.”

    • Nick Sanders

      Quit spamming, dumbass.

      • spinneywebber

        “All we are saaaaying…..is give informed consent a chance”
        Come on now, it’s a beautiful notion adopted by the AMA since it’s inception, are you such a “dumbass” that you disagree with informed consent?
        Truly a dumber ass has never been born.

        • Nick Sanders

          I disagree with you repeating the same lie over and over.

          • spinneywebber

            “All we are saaaaying…..is give informed consent a chance”

          • Who?

            Trouble is no educated thoughtful person could say out loud the nonsense you spout, and even if they could, it would only make proper sense if they were wearing a tinfoil hat, so no one would listen anyway.

    • demodocus

      I prefer “Total Eclipse” from Handle’s Samson. “Why dost thou deprive, thy prime decree? No sun, no moon, all daaaaark, all daaark to meee. Sun, moon, and stars, all dark to me.”

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    For our anti-vaxxer friends:

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      If I may add to this:

      • Azuran

        It’s like trying to play any game with a 3 years old. They make up their own rules as they go, then they don’t follow their own rules and declare themselves the winner.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          It really is. Except I’ve met three year olds with a more coherent grasp of how to pose a convincing argument. We should totally make Dinosaurs.

      • SageThinker

        Boomerang right back at you. Funny how projection works.

        • It has been a while since you’ve been on an anti-vax bender, Sage. What happened pal, are you on new meds?

          • hyperzombie

            So do vaxx’s harm the gut microbiome? What is his issue with vaccines?

          • SageThinker

            Fuck off dude.

          • SageThinker

            Been a while since you stalked me, stalker man.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          Please go back to your psychology 101 class. I don’t think you learned enough ways to pretend to understand human thought processes. I’ll wait.

          • SageThinker

            Wow wow wow… ok then….

    • Bugsy

      That is absolutely beautiful.

    • spinneywebber

      AMA Code of Medical Ethics – Informed Consent
      “The patient’s right of self-decision can be effectively exercised only if
      the patient possesses enough information to enable an informed choice. The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment.
      A physician cannot withhold information merely because he or she thinks the information may cause the patient to refuse a specific treatment. In other words, a physician must disclose information that a reasonable person would want to have for decision making, even though that information may cause the patient to refuse treatment that the physician believes is in the patient’s best interest.”

      • Nick Sanders

        No information is being withheld.

        • spinneywebber

          to use your phrase, “dumbass”:
          The issue I’m addressing is mandatory vaccines and how our right to refuse them is being trampled upon.
          Aside from the other issue that information is indeed being withheld:
          “Dumbass” doesn’t appear to be aware that there have never been double blind trials showing the effectiveness and safety of most vaccines, and that the “science” he’s been sold by the snake oil salesmen pharmaceutical companies is mostly bought & paid for by themselves.
          In any other industry the clear conflict of interest would be obvious to everyone and they would be suspect of collusion.

          • Nick Sanders

            The issue I’m addressing is mandatory vaccines and how our right to refuse them is being trampled upon.

            So, you’re addressing a non-issue. Got it, stop wasting everyone’s time.

          • Who?

            Who is subject to mandatory vaccination?

          • Nick Sanders

            You are? Why aren’t you sure? :p

          • Who?

            Funny…

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Requiring vaccination for school admission is no more trampling on your rights than not allowing children to bring guns to school is trampling on the second amendment

          • spinneywebber

            and now you’re clouding the issue with gun rights?
            move of desperation.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, I am pointing out how ridiculous your argument is. I can see it went over your head

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Any of you anti-vax clowns know what “cognitive dissonance” is?

    • demodocus

      SOmething only we have, Doc. Natch!

    • spinneywebber

      You, good doctor, in using such playground bullying tactics (name-calling, ridiculing) have forgotten your American Medical Association Code of Medical Ethics:

      AMA Code of Medical Ethics – Informed Consent
      “The patient’s right of self-decision can be effectively exercised only if
      the patient possesses enough information to enable an informed choice. The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment.
      A physician cannot withhold information merely because he or she thinks the information may cause the patient to refuse a specific treatment. In other words, a physician must disclose information that a reasonable person would want to have for decision making, even though that information may cause the patient to refuse treatment that the physician believes is in the patient’s best interest.”

      As I pointed out to a vet below, unfortunately you have been inoculated against any opinion that goes against your pharmaceutical company funded (through the university you attended and the journals you read) “education,” otherwise known as drug company induced brain-washing.
      Modern medical science has accomplished some incredible things, but it has also made some pretty big gaffes, especially in the past couple decades where iatrogenic death rate in the US (death caused by doctors) has been shown to be as high as 783,936 a year. That’s 84,059 more deaths than those caused by heart disease in 2001 and 230,865 more deaths than those caused by cancer. Those numbers may be 20 times higher, since only 5 to 20% of iatrogenic deaths are reported for fear of lawsuits and because codes for reporting deaths due to drug side effects and other medical errors don’t even exist in many cases.

      Sorry, your white coat doesn’t give you a monopoly on scientific thought, if anything it simply reveals your bias.

      • Azuran

        How about showing some evidence of your claims?
        Actually you might even start by explaining what you claim is. Because you don’t really make much sense.
        Do you have any proof that me, or anyone else for that matter, is getting money from big pharma.
        Or any proof that we are withholding information from patient and what information we are withholding and why?
        And I’ve already pointed out below that those numbers are medical death are not possible.

        • spinneywebber

          My claim was that your education and the journals and research you read is hugely biased because it is largely bought & paid for by the same companies whose products you sell.
          Doctors who insist/bully patients on vaccination without disclosing the risk/benefit ratio and letting them make their own choice are withholding proof.
          Doctors who disseminate faulty research, even out of ignorance, are withholding information, albeit unknowingly, but patients assume they are knowledgeable and trust them, so if they have not done their research are a spreading faulty research it amounts to the same thing.

          “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.”
          Dr. Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of the Lancet

          “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of the New England Journal of Medicine”

          Dr. Marcia Angell, a physician and longtime Editor in Chief of the New England Medical Journal

          • Azuran

            and again. Show some proof of what you are saying.
            Do you think that every single time a new study comes out, all medical professionals instantly change their practice? We know about how unreliable many studies can be. Or how the huge majority of them cannot be transposed on the real world.
            When something new comes out, we make note of it, than either observe as more studies are being done or make new and better studies ourselves that will either confirm or infirm what the first study showed.

          • spinneywebber

            When we’re talking about any treatment, the burden of proof is on the medical profession to show it is safe & effective.
            I don’t have to prove it is not safe & effective in order to refuse said treatment. That is how the system was designed and that is how it is supposed to work.
            I have, however, already shown that the studies used to justify these treatments are hugely flawed.

            Now, the drug companies in collusion with government are trying to change that by creating the first MANDATORY (read: fascist) treatment by law.
            Whose side are you on?
            Do you believe in the principle of informed consent?

          • Azuran

            And each and every single medication out there has been proved to be safe and effective at doing what they are claiming. And even after they have been approved, they are still being monitored closely for any side effect that might not have been seen during the testing phase.
            You are just refusing to accept those studies like a baby. But that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
            And no one is forcing you to get vaccinated. You still have the choice not to get vaccinated. No on is going into your house to hold you down while a doctor gives you a shot.

          • spinneywebber

            Since 1986 with the passing of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. Congress gave legal immunity and protection to U.S. pharmaceutical companies who
            manufacture vaccines. Today, you can no longer sue the manufacturer of a vaccine if you are injured or if someone is killed by that product.

          • Nick Sanders

            No they didn’t, stop lying.

          • spinneywebber

            boy, you’re getting desperate.
            You’re denying easily verifiable truth, like the FACT that

            since 1986 with the passing of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury
            Act, Congress gave legal immunity and protection to U.S. pharmaceutical
            companies who
            manufacture vaccines. Today, you can no longer sue the
            manufacturer of a vaccine if you are injured or if someone is killed by
            that product.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            You will still receive a financial compensation. They just made it so you can’t sue the companies into bankruptcies because intelligent people understand that no vaccine will ever be 100% safe (even though they are close enough) because the vaccines are saving a lot more lives then they are causing harm. It’s all about risk/benefits and informed consent.

            Whenever I have any kind of reaction that could even remotely be caused by a vaccine (basically anything wrong with any pet I vaccinate in the next 48h after the vaccine, including puppies known to be car sick vomiting in the car on their way back home after getting a vaccine) The company covers 100% of the cost of treatment of that pet without asking any question. Talk about immunity and not taking responsibility.

          • spinneywebber

            first you claimed that they could be sued and that was our ‘Protection” from faulty vaccines.
            Now that I’ve informed you that’s not the case, that we have no such protection, you are changing your tune.
            Any manufacturer can claim they are serving the greater good (car companies, cell phone manufacturers…) and demand immunity from poorly designed products that kill people.
            Wrong argument, you’re never going to win that one.
            Better change your tune again.

          • Azuran

            You are simply refusing to see what the ‘immunity’ really is about.
            There is a difference between having a recognized complication following a vaccine and having an injury following a faulty vaccine or faulty administration of a vaccine. They can totally still be sued if they hide any kind of information regardless the safety or potential risks to their vaccine or if they produce faulty vaccine.
            Someone earlier actually posted to you a very nice resume about the whole immunity thing. You should read it.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            This is a good thing for everyone and other countries are fighting to have the same system. You are so lost

          • spinneywebber

            …and you have your head in the sand if you don’t know tht state after state has been passing more & more legislation requiring vaccination.

          • Charybdis

            You can always decline vaccination. People do things AMA all the time. Just be willing to accept the consequences of your actions and not bitch to high heaven about it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Stop lying.

  • Nick Sanders
    • Who?

      Well yes.

      And since none of any of that has any oversight, who knows what people are actually taking.

    • sabelmouse

      but pharma is so much more than vaccines. but the non poison medicine market will grow.

      • demodocus

        Except there is no regulation of supplements, so occasionally it really does have poison in it.

        • sabelmouse

          better than all the time,eh 😉

          • demodocus

            Digitalis at the correct dose saves lives. Foxglove in your herbal tea could be very dangerous. Because no one was paying much attention to how much of what goes in. So maybe it was only 1 plant mixed among 70 peppermint plants and spread among heaven knows how many teabags. Or maybe it’s nearly all of this teabag.
            Agatha Christie’s books are full of medicines used improperly to kill people. ‘Cause she actually worked with the stuff during WWI.

          • sabelmouse

            and where and when did this happen then?

          • demodocus

            I’m not sure if she work