Anti-vaccine parents and the package insert paradox

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Hey, anti-vaxxers, help me out here!

You’re big fans of vaccine package inserts, right? You’re constantly waving them in parents’ faces insisting that they “reveal” the “truth” about vaccine dangers, right?

So why do you ignore the package insert when it talks about the benefits, efficacy and safety of vaccines?

You’re big fans of vaccine package inserts, right? So why do you ignore the package insert when it talks about the benefits, efficacy and safety of vaccines?

According to Stop Mandatory Vaccination:

The risks for each vaccine are stated right on the vaccine package inserts but these inserts are not given to parents or even to adults considering the suggested vaccines for them. It is also doubtful that the doctor or nurse dispensing the vaccine has fully read the product insert

A full list of contraindications and adverse events listed in the package inserts is available on the Immunization Action Coalition website. While the incidence of any particular adverse reaction listed on the insert may not be unacceptable in the eyes of the manufacturer or the CDC, every parent has both the duty and right to know what they are so that they can decide whether the benefit outweighs the risk for their child or themselves. (my emphasis)

The folks at Stop Manadatory Vaccination, seem to believe that package inserts are so important because they are:

  • Accurate
  • Filled with valuable information
  • Scrupulously honest

Let’s take a look at the package insert for the MMR (mumps, measles, rubella) vaccine. It includes nearly two pages of possible vaccine side effects. Nothing is too small or too rare to be listed.

Looks scary, right?

But there’s more!

According to the package insert, the MMR is highly effective!

Clinical studies of 284 triple seronegative children, 11 months to 7 years of age, demonstrated that M-M-R II is highly immunogenic and generally well tolerated. In these studies, a single injection of the vaccine induced measles hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) antibodies in 95%, mumps neutralizing antibodies in 96%, and rubella HI antibodies in 99% of susceptible persons.

According to the package insert, the MMR has been extensively tested!

Efficacy of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines was established in a series of double-blind controlled field trials which demonstrated a high degree of protective efficacy afforded by the individual vaccine components. These studies also established that seroconversion in response to vaccination against measles, mumps, and rubella paralleled protection from these diseases.

According to the package insert, the MMR dramatically improves public health!

The impact of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination on the natural history of each disease in the United States can be quantified by comparing the maximum number of measles, mumps, and rubella cases reported in a given year prior to vaccine use to the number of cases of each disease reported in 1995. For measles, 894,134 cases reported in 1941 compared to 288 cases reported in 1995 resulted in a 99.97% decrease in reported cases; for mumps, 152,209 cases reported in 1968 compared to 840 cases reported in 1995 resulted in a 99.45% decrease in reported cases; and for rubella, 57,686 cases reported in 1969 compared to 200 cases reported in 1995 resulted in a 99.65% decrease.

The package insert mandates scrupulous attention to safety, acknowledges risks, emphasizes informed consent and asks for detailed explanations of any adverse reactions:

The health-care provider should inform the patient, parent, or guardian of the benefits and risks associated with vaccination. For risks associated with vaccination see WARNINGS, PRECAUTIONS, and ADVERSE REACTIONS.

Patients, parents, or guardians should be instructed to report any serious adverse reactions to their health-care provider who in turn should report such events to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services through the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System …

In fact, if you read the entire package insert, you would almost certainly opt to vaccinate your child!

See the paradox?

You claim that package inserts offer vital, scrupulously honest information about vaccines. They do.

So why aren’t you vaccinating?

  • Hens Zimmerman

    First of all, thanks for opening the discussion and your blog. I am in general an atheist, very much against all kinds of “magical thinking” including homeopathy, etc.

    But here’s the thing: the mere title of this blog post lumps together all the vaccines as if they are either a) all good or b) all bad. This is exactly what I found very disturbing in the discussions I found when we got our baby, now 6 years ago. I went to the talks of the anti-vaccine folks, and found to my relief that the spokes person invited us all to do our own research and ask questions where appropriate. So when the cards from the Dutch RIVM came in, inviting us to insert lots of vaccines in our little girl, I tried to do my own research. From the beginning it was clear for me that I wanted to vaccine at least against polio, because I found several cases in the Netherlands in recent years. So our option became: DTP or DKTP (where K stands for “whooping cough” or Bordetella pertussis). Now, DKTP was widely available and free of charge, where as DTP had to be ordered and was not free of charge. So I asked our family doctor if there was really a good reason to vaccine against Bordetella pertussis. The RIVM (the Dutch institute concerned with the vaccine program) admitted that the K in DKTP was for a bacteria that was not seen in the wild anymore, because the Bordetella pertussis had evaded the vaccine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88555/). They also agreed the “whooping cough” was only very rarely a serious threat for very young infants, and by the time we were in the running for the vaccines the actual threat was very debatable. Especially because the vaccine did not yield an immunisation against the bacteria (because of the mutation that was now seen). So my wife and I bought the DTP vaccine to avoid inserting unnecessary stuff into the veins of our lovely baby girl. You see, I’m super glad it’s 2016 and I’m all for vaccines, but I find it disturbing that the discussion is always very unscientific: you’re either for or against. Even those in the know ridicule those who doubt the effectiveness of a single vaccine. In fact, when I was doing my own little google research 6 years ago I found that the scientific community has not done enough research on the effectiveness of combined vaccines (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005530.pub3/abstract;jsessionid=B44955282F1765F9532AA3B163EA9D4E.f01t03) with some papers even claiming a less effective approach in combining vaccines. Our family doctor agreed the standard combination vaccines are free because they are mass-produced and sponsored, even though the K part is not preventing against bordetella pertussis as good as it could be if the newer strains were used. I personally would find it great if the discussion would be less black or white. A bit of openness would be very welcome. Is it cheaper to use a gazillion DKTP injections that are already produced or would it be better for our children if the vaccine against ‘whooping cough’ was actually up to date? Same for the HiB vaccines: the WHO agrees that it does not immunize infants against the NTHi strains of haemophilus influenza.

    • swbarnes2

      You don’t stop vaccinating just because the vaccine is less effective than we wish it were. It’s better for a kid to have some resistance than none at all.

      http://www.rivm.nl/en/Documents_and_publications/Common_and_Present/Newsmessages/2015/Concerns_over_whooping_cough_despite_modifications_to_vaccination_programme

      “Whooping cough can be extremely serious, sometimes fatal, for babies who are not or not fully vaccinated. In order to better protect this risk group, three changes in the pertussis vaccination schedule have been implemented:…The RIVM monitoring of whooping cough data in the Netherlands shows that these changes have indeed led to fewer cases of pertussis in 6-month-old infants up till 8-10 year-old children.”

      Your paper doesn’t say what you think it says. Strains drifting does not equal “evading” the protective effect of the vaccine.

      I’m sorry, but your baby was already being exposed to hundreds of antigens a day. One more would have done no harm, and would have given her SOME protection from a deadly disease. You chose instead to leave her absolutely wide open to a potentially fatal infection.

  • Nick Sanders

    I’m starting to wish I actually did work for Big Pharma. Then, at least I’d get paid for putting up with these idiots, plus I might not have had to pay $90 for an off-hours clinic to confirm that, yes, I sure do have an ear/sinus infection, so I could get some Augmentin.

    Why does the really obvious stuff always have to happen on the weekend when my regular, much less expensive, doctor’s office is closed?

    • Azuran

      I sure as hell wouldn’t mind getting all those ‘bonuses’ I’m supposed to get from Big Pharma for vaccinating.

    • Charybdis

      You just need to diffuse some essential oils, rinse your sinuses with a Neti pot containing a mixture of green tea, chicken soup and kale. If you could find a chunk of placenta to toss into the mix, it would make the rinsing mixture an order of magnitude more potent. Ask your chiropractor to align your chakras and drink plenty of homeopathic water. That’ll fix you up in no time.

      (please don’t tell me I need to specify this is sarcasm)

      • Monkey Professor for a Head

        Don’t forget the breastmilk. Squirt that stuff right up there!

      • JGC

        But how many C do I dilute it to (with vigorous shaking, of course) before I squirt it up my nose?

  • Maud Pie

    Barzini’s repeated demands for someone to respond to the YouTube videos he links has given me an idea. Perhaps someone with more entrepreneurial spirit and ambition could take this up: a personal debunking service. You can charge an hourly rate to watch the videos, prepare a point by point response, educate the client on all the background information necessary to understand the debunking, and explain, in a way the client can understand, why the video is pseudoscientific rubbish. It’s a tedious task to do all this for free on Disqus, but monetary compensation might provide the incentive.

    • Charybdis

      It sounds like a great idea, but for one thing. Even when the points are evaluated and debunked using scientific studies, education and citable papers/articles, etc, the questioner is no more likely to agree with the debunking/rebuttal than they were before.

      They are bound and determined that vaccines are somehow shady/bad medicine and no amount of rational education and explanation of the science involved will make any difference to them.

      Look at Barzini: Aluminum is a neurotoxin! Responsible for Alzheimer’s! Aluminum is in vaccines! Inject babies with known neurotoxins! Mercury is STILL in vaccines! Ingestion is not injection!…yada, yada yada, ad nauseam. Not knowing that some illnesses are viral and some are bacterial and that antibiotics have made great strides in our ability to fight and cure bacterial illnesses, but that antibiotics don’t work for viral illnesses. Not recognizing or accepting that adjuvants make vaccines safer because a much smaller amount of the virus or part of the virus (proteins, usually) can be used and the adjuvant helps the body produce the required immune response. Not realizing that ethyl mercury and methyl mercury are NOT the same thing, nor caring that they are different when it is pointed out.

      Numbers of us have rebutted/debunked Barzini’s claims, but s/he doesn’t care. We have said it different ways, posted links to peer-reviewed journal articles, posted links to places like CDC, FDA, NIH, etc that spell out vaccine ingredients and potential side effects, provided quick thumbnail summaries of how the immune system works, pointed out flaws in his logic, explained why the paragons of science he references (Humphries, Sears, etc.) are considered quacks and that their work is highly questionable.

      Barzini doesn’t care about all that. Nor do a lot of anti-vaxxers. If rational scientific evidence doesn’t convince them, then nothing will. Until/unless they themselves or a close family member/friend catches a VPD and suffers greatly from it or dies. Then it *might* start to maybe sink in that vaccines are a good thing.

      • Maud Pie

        You are right, of course, but at least the debunker could earn some money. Woo believers are always transferring their money to charlatans, but with this scheme some money would be diverted away from the quacks.

        • Charybdis

          True. I don’t know who would have the patience for it, though.

          • Maud Pie

            I sure wouldn’t, that’s why I’m proposing someone else do it.

    • Barzini

      I would personally be willing to pay money for such a service

      I fully admit that I’m biased, but I’m genuinely trying to learn what both sides have to say

      • Sonja Henie

        It doesn’t seem that way to me. You have only presented “evidence” from anit-vaccine cranks such as Humphries, Sears, et al, and articles that support your opinions.

        • Barzini

          Christopher Shaw is a ‘crank’ ?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Absolutely. Try to find some scientific evidence that hasn’t been spoon fed to you by anti-vax cranks. Please cite appropriate papers THAT YOU HAVE READ and quote the relevant sections (not the abstract).

          • Wren

            Or just stop hand waving away the explanations you have been given here.

          • Barzini

            I posted the links to those papers to see if anyone was familiar with them or had an opinion on them and also simply as proof that research is currently being performed into a possible link between alzheimers and other disorders and aluminium

            It seems unlikely that everyone involved in such research is a ‘loon’, ‘human waste’ or a ‘snake-oil salesman’

          • Wren

            Even if there is a link, the aluminium in vaccines is of a far lesser amount than aluminium obtained through food. It is not a reason to forgo vaccination. Yes, I know you believe that somehow aluminium injected IM crosses into the brain when ingested aluminium does not, but you have not provided evidence to support that claim.

          • Amazed

            When has this particular piece of human waste ever produced any research? I mean research and not “research”.

          • Sonja Henie

            The heck that’s your reason for posting this tripe! That’s another typical anti-vax meme, to try to be oh-so innocent! Not buying it, not from you.

            There may be one or two non loon, human waste, snake-oil salesmen who get involved in such research, but once they found out what’s going on they either cross over or leave.

            BTW, I just noticed your picture shows you smoking a cigarette. Are you a lung-cancer denier as well?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not science. Please provide appropriate quotes from relevant papers (not abstracts) and place them in the context of preponderance of scientific evidence.

          • Charybdis

            Crank, quack, charlatan, snake-oil salesman, sham, fraud, mountebank, flimflammer, take your pick.

          • Sonja Henie
          • Barzini

            It’s an interesting article and I agree that research funded by anti-vax groups is likely to generate results which question vaccination

            However, it works both ways

            Ultimately, the article supports my growing belief that the peer reviewed journal process is flawed

          • Sonja Henie

            Your growing belief, LOL! That’s another anti-vax meme! Keep it up Barz! You like to show your bias.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not science. Please provide actual science.

          • Of course it’s flawed, Barzini. Perfection is not possible in the real world….it’s kind of like democracy in that respect. And peer review is only the first step, anyway.

    • Michael McCarthy

      “explain, in a way the client can understand”
      Printing pop-up books is probably expensive on a case by case basis.

      • shay simmons

        I don’t think there are enough crayons for it, either.

      • Maud Pie

        I wish I had thought of your pop-up book simile when I posted this. “In a way that they can understand ” is a pretty weak way to get my meaning across.

        Just to clarify, this was a tongue in cheek suggestion to counter the anti-vaxxers’ whiny “but you didn’t explain it to ME” whenever someone links to sources that debunk whatever charlatan video du jour they are currently spouting.

        • Michael McCarthy

          “In a way that they can understand ” is a pretty weak way to get my meaning across.”
          Nah, it was fine.
          The old “you didn’t explain it to me” seems less pervasive than “you’re not listening to me” or “you’re an idiot and you don’t know what you are talking about”, IMO (although those responses are likely a result of their own failures in understanding).

    • yugaya

      “Barzini’s repeated demands for someone to respond to the YouTube videos he links” Damn, I seem to have missed all the fun.

    • Sue

      We do that for free:

      https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfScienceInMedicine/

      Most people posting silly stuff don’t intend for it to be de-bunked – we provide that service anyway!

  • Amazed

    Damn it! I am turning into the thing I despise most: those who say the right thing but don’t do it. I still haven’t found the time to get my boosters and I really should. Too much work, going on avacation, being unwell… I have to remedy the situation next week.

    I still found the time to get my flu shot, though.

    Such threads make me think my SIL is a really smart cookie. Whenever faced with people lecturing on how dangerous vaccines are, she just asks, “What do you do for living?” Mind you, she doesn’t follow doctor’s recommendatons to a T. But she sure as hell isn’t fooling around with Amazing Niece’s health when it truly matters. A deviation from the purees that the doctor says Amazing Niece should eat when the kid won’t have them? Not a big deal. Possible tuberculosis and measles? Big, BIG deal.

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m working on getting my boosters. Turns out there had been a bit of a snafu with my current GP getting my records from my pediatrician (I’m only 30). But I have paper copies to take with me next time I go; which is gonna be soon thanks to this stupid sinus infection.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD
  • FormerPhysicist

    Just took my 3 kids in for flu shots. Didn’t read the insert. I expect them to be brain-dead zombies tonight. (Actually, I do, but that’s because I haven’t kicked them off youtube today …)

    BTW – I have reverted to referring to the disease as influenza, to distinguish it from idiots who talk about “the stomach flu” being over in 24 hours and no big deal.

    • Nick Sanders

      Last few times I’ve had the “stomach flu” it may have only lasted 24-48 hours, but it was certainly a big deal. Not only is it abject misery on a scale I rarely ever experience, I’m often so violently ill that I begin to genuinely worry about electrolyte imbalances.

      • FormerPhysicist

        Stomach flu can mean so many things … I think my circle uses it to mean any illness that includes vomiting (at all).

        • Sonja Henie

          Agree with this and with your first post. I don’t know where/when/how influenza got conflated with gastroenteritis, but many people certainly think they’re one and the same. Kids do tend to vomit/have diarrhea with just about every illness, at least mine did, but the PRIMARY symptom of influenza is cough and body aches. I do everything I can to distinguish them when I talk to parents. I think that’s the reason for so many flu shot “failures”.

          • kfunk937

            I have really fond memories of my dad passing a fake cell phone for emergency (filled with faux medicine, in the form of sweet-tarts) in through my front door with the prescription I couldn’t pick up myself for intractable vomiting (to the point of mild, coffee grounds sign) and diarrhoea. It was either food poisoning or a stomach-virus. I remember thinking at the time that my body would be found in a noxious pool of embarrassing liquids, and feeling some embarrassment because of that. I didn’t blame him, mind you. He’d a history of a weak stomach dropping infants when they even spit up in the past. There was no way he wanted anywhere near a potentially contagious event, nor anything resembling one.

      • Amazed

        Same here. About 16 miserable hours (followed by 10 days of being off colour). Just about a month ago. It was a big deal even without the fact that it put a stopper on my spa vacation that I had planned to start about 3 hours before the “stomach flu” arrived.

    • Chant de la Mer

      I don’t know what’s worse, people confusing a stomach bug with the flu or confusing a cold with the flu. No your little cough and runny nose is not the flu, if you didn’t feel like you were run over by a truck and dying it’s probably not the flu.
      Caveat, if you had a flu shot and still catch influenza that might make it milder and similar to a cold.

  • Barzini

    Not sure who has the time, but I’d appreciate hearing the opinion of anyone who’s interested in this youtube presentation from Dr. Suzanne Humphries:

    I saw it a while ago and managed to track it down, I feel like it’s a good introduction into fears over aluminium in vaccines (obviously only an introduction)

    Trojan Horses and Clusterbombs: Dr Suzanne Humphries on aluminum in Finland

    https://youtu.be/PWP6e2CYPo8

    • Nick Sanders
      • Barzini

        Yeah read that already – what do you think about the presentation?

        • Amazed

          What do you think of the court rulings against ex-Dr Andrew Wakefield?

          To answer your question: I think the woman is human waste. I also think it’s pathetic how you scramble to hide behind the authority of a loony doctor while disparaging the vast majority of doctors who do support vaccination.

          Doctors are a great thing, as long as they say what your pathetic little mind craves to hear, and all others are not trustworthy, huh?

          • Barzini

            No you’re the one that only listens to certain doctors and calls the others ‘human waste’

            I don’t do that

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            Yeah, what do you think about what shes actually says? That’s what interests me…..

            Are these guys crazed loons also?
            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Sonja Henie

            Youtube is not evidence. Sorry, Barz. Produce something peer-reviewed. Oh wait, it’s a conspiracy! That’s why these guys can’t get their stuff in peer-reviewed journals, right?

          • Barzini

            It was a genuine question, I would like to know what people here think about what she says

          • Roadstergal

            Give me a paper and I’ll read it and tell you. I’m not going to review a random YouTube link; that’s not science.

          • Nick Sanders

            What’s sad is that those 2 videos and one link are all he has. In contrast, I responded with something different each time, most of which were either published studies or cited published studies. Fat lot of good it did, though.

          • demodocus

            is s/he posting the same 2 videos over and over? a bit spammy, that.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yep. One by Suzanne Humphries, one by Bob Sears. And refusing to consider that they might be lying, since when shown studies that differ from what they are saying the response has been “Nuh-uh! Check the video!”

          • Barzini

            OK, but this is exactly why your message isn’t getting through

            Instead of engaging people who are below you in terms of scientific knowledge, instead of generating information for their level of understanding, you just dismiss and insult and demand scientific papers from people who have probably never even looked at one in their entire lives

            Your approach isn’t working

          • Nick Sanders

            Except Roadstergal isn’t doing outreach, she’s responding to a person who came to a doctor’s blog and started shitting all over the place as if they knew more than the modern medical community.

          • Barzini

            I’ve repeatedly said I’m no expert and repeatedly asked you to for a critique of some anti-vax information

          • Nick Sanders

            Which you have been given.

          • Barzini

            must have missed that

          • Roadstergal

            And we’ve given it. We’ve shown you that your understanding of aluminum and its distribution and effect on the body are incorrect. We’ve shown you that your understanding of methyl and ethylmercury and their distribution and effect on the body are incorrect. And you just keep posting the same link to the same YouTube video.

          • Barzini

            Which you refuse to watch or give any opinion on – one person even refuses to watch anything on youtube because it’s not peer reviewed – what????

          • Roadstergal

            Your brain is definitely addled.

            I can’t watch YouTube at work.

            That should not hamper you from giving us evidence for your positions – or even just stating them clearly.

          • demodocus

            its like some jobs will let you look at discus but not youtube or something

          • Azuran

            Because any smart people know that you don’t get your medical information on freaking youtube. It’s totally unregulated and has 0 oversight or any kind of peer reviewing procedure.
            You can, basically, find whatever YOU are looking for. Which is not how finding scientific information is supposed to work.
            I can probably find a video out there explaining why the center of the earth is actually made of cheese.

          • Wren

            But you are the one claiming to have evidence, though the best you can provide is a YouTube video. You are dismissing the scientific evidence, and those who do understand it.

          • Barzini

            You won’t even tell me what’s wrong with the video

            Are these guys loons?

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Nick Sanders

            He was lying by the second sentence, so, yes, definitely a loon.

          • Barzini

            could you just for once, one single time, tell me why?

          • Nick Sanders

            He claimed vaccine ingredients have not been tested for safety. I have shown you multiple studies testing both ingredients and entires vaccines for safety over the last few days.

            If you connect those two statements and find the problem, I’m not really sure how you’ve managed to get on a computer and post as much as you have.

          • Barzini

            Could you please tell me what’s wrong with the video (other than it being on youtube and the presenter being ‘human waste’)

            This is the type of question regular people want answered

            This is why people are heading towards CAM

          • Wren

            A YouTube video just plain is not how science is done. If you have concerns about vaccines, discuss them with your doctor, a trained medical professional who is there to address your medical concerns. Why would you even believe something on YouTube? If the claims on the video were credible at all, the correct forum to present them would not be YouTube. I don’t even need to view the video to know that the claims are not credible because they go against current scientific consensus and are not being presented in a scientific setting, to face peer review from others who understand the claims, but being presented on YouTube to people who have no understanding of the science.

            Most “regular people” understand that they are not as knowledgeable about subjects as experts who have devoted their lives to study in that area. If they develop concerns about vaccines, perhaps from seeing antivax claims, they consult people with more knowledge than themselves to address those concerns.

          • Barzini

            You don’t know what the video is about, this is incredible – this is exactly why you are losing patients to CAM

            Of course peer review is essential for investigation, bringing drugs to market etc… – but to not even listen to a doctor because he expresses himself via video is just insane

            I don’t operate at that level and neither do the vast majority of other people

            I’m off, it’s been an interesting experience, but I’ll look elsewhere from now on for the answers to my questions

          • Wren

            The last time I watched a doctor take his case to the public on vaccines when he was going against the scientific consensus it was Andrew Wakefield. He caused so many to believe in the vaccine-autism link, a link that has failed peer review in a huge way. His “science” was so far outside of ethical boundaries that he has been struck off the medical register here in the UK and his paper has been withdrawn.
            I really do not care what level you “operate at” except that that level appears to be incapable of understanding the science of vaccines and simultaneously incapable of understanding that you lack that understanding.
            The majority of people can at least grasp that those who spend years, decades even, studying a particular subject have more knowledge than those who do not and do not believe that they know more than the experts. Anti-vaxers do not make up the majority.

          • Mike Stevens

            I dipped in the video, wasting 15 minutes of my time, and told you what was wrong.
            Can you now have the courtesy to spend a couple of minutes of your time telling me what you think of those specific claims she made and whether you still believe them despite the clear evidence she is a liar?

          • Roadstergal

            You’re the one saying the existing outreach is just plain wrong. If you’re going to argue the basic science, you have to understand the basic science. If you don’t want to understand the basic science, don’t argue it with professionals. You can’t have it both ways.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, there’s a growing movement against regular medicine, especially vaccination, but also a host of other medications

            There’s a shift towards CAM – which I agree is nonsense mostly

            This haughty attitude has a lot to do with it, people who refuse to watch a presentation because it’s on youtube are not going to get their message across

          • Roadstergal

            That’s not my only haughty stance. I also make it a point to only fly on a plane that has a licensed pilot, rather than a guy who’s seen some YouTube videos. I’m super elitist.

          • Barzini

            I’m pretty sure a pilot would look at a video on youtube about flying if asked to, especially if teh video was by a pilot

          • Nick Sanders

            If said pilot was well known in the aviation community for saying de-icing was dangerous and should be forgone, and had been addressed multiple times over the years, I doubt said hypothetical pilot would have any more patience for them and their videos than we have around here for your videos.

          • Who?

            And what’s more, no one would fly with him because dirty planes fall out of the sky, inarguably.

            Whereas, if Barzini’s kids get sick, he can blame everyone else and get an extra star on his martyr badge for having to look after them. He’d be the victim, of course.

          • Mike Stevens

            If it was from a pilot who had never flown a plane himself, I doubt it.
            (Humphries has never done a single piece of vaccine research in her entire medical life)

          • Who?

            Sooo fancy.

          • Daleth

            This haughty attitude has a lot to do with it

            Wait, it’s “haughty” to decline to waste your time absorbing misinformation from sources that are known to be incompetent and not evidence based? In my book that’s not haughty, it’s just smart.

          • Barzini

            Thousands of concerned parents, the vast majority of whom are well educated and compassionate, disagree.

            Your approach simply turns such people away, towards woo

          • Daleth

            What approach would turn “concerned parents”/antivaxxers towards reason and science? If you can point me to an approach that works, I’ll gladly use it.

          • Barzini

            Well imagine a parent goes to a doctor and says she watched an anti vax film

            There are two ways to react:

            1) Say that the person who made the film is a loon and human waste and that you refuse to watch it or discuss it and that you will only respond to information that has been peer reviewed

            2) Watch it, make a list of the untruths, and explain why they are untruths

            I’d go for option 2

          • Daleth

            I’ve tried option 2, Barz. It doesn’t work. That is, it makes the “concerned parent” retreat from the particular point that I’ve explained is false, but it doesn’t actually reduce their belief that SOMETHING SOMEHOW is bad about vaccines.

            Case in point: 15 years ago antivaxxers were flipping out about thimerosal, so we pointed out that there was absolutely no evidence anywhere in any study (other than the couple that Dr. Wakefield faked) that showed any connection between thimerosal and autism.

            Antivaxxer response: “But it’s mercury! And mercury is bad! It must be causing problems! Do more studies and in the meantime, we’re not vaccinating!”

            Scientists’ response: “Ok, we’ll take the thimerosal out of all the childhood vaccines just so you KNOW FOR SURE that there’s nothing you even incorrectly believe to be causing autism in childhood vaccines.”

            Antivaxxers’ response: “Ok cool, but damn, it was about time…. and… OMG BUT THERE’S ALUMINUM! YOU’RE CAUSING AUTISM!!!!!!!!!! There is no other possible explanation for all this autism–it’s GOT to be something in the vaccines, and since there’s no more thimerosal, we’ve decided it must be this other compound that’s still there!”

            Science: “But there’s absolutely no scientific evidence anywhere from any study that this compound causes autism, and a basic understanding of chemistry tells you that this form of aluminum wouldn’t be expected to cause any harm even in large amounts, much less in the trace amounts found in vaccines.”

            Antivaxxers: “We don’t believe you! There MUST be something dangerous about vaccines! You guys are just shills for Big Pharma!”

            …it just goes on and on and ON. There is no reasoning with people who have simply decided to believe something despite massive evidence to the contrary. You might as well try to persuade a Jesuit not to believe in God.

          • Barzini

            I don’t know, there were plenty of scientists, doctors and researchers against mercury also – not just conspiracy theorists

            But I appreciate your general point, I can see how it’s not easy

          • Charybdis

            Yet again, there is no mercury in vaccines anymore, except in multi-dose vials of flu vaccine. So you can stop worrying about the mercury issue now.

          • Barzini

            Fully aware of that, however the fact that there was is of concern, the fact that many researchers have concerns over other ingredients like aluminium is of concern

            Obviously not to you, but to some people – I don’t see these people as loons, especially as some of them are respected doctors, researchers, etc…

          • Nope. There isn’t. It’s alum.

          • Nor has there ever been mercury in vaccines in any case. Barzini needs to learn basic school-level chemistry concepts before commenting on them if he wishes to have any realistic hope of sounding like anything other than an ignorant fool.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13cac82ab2ea5425fff43de06449adf2512b01fe06e01730e8a5835124baa99f.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1fcb1603d18e932fad27c48fdb553b465ae80fc4c14b43fc1f3f0ab6e2663f58.jpg

          • Wren

            You are yourself a prime example of why option 2 does not work. Plenty of the untruths in your videos, and your comments themselves, have been explained as untruths. You either ignore the explanation altogether or insist it is false.

          • Nick Sanders

            The film is just short of 2 hours long, and as I said, the first lie happens at roughly 1 minute. That’s two hours to watch it, and a few more to catalogue all the errors as they are profuse, and several more after that looking up the studies that prove them wrong and writing up the whole breakdown of the film.

            To quote Alberto Brandolini, “The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.”

          • Mike Stevens

            I did option 2 for you.
            I showed she was talking out her backside.
            Good enough?

          • Charybdis

            Nope, not even close, sorry. Perhaps it is your perception of what she is saying. /sarcasm

          • Nick Sanders

            Your cheerleading for woo sure doesn’t help.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh I though YOU were cheerleading for woo.

          • Charybdis

            But when you stubbornly refuse to even think about or consider things that are said/posted/cited, things like the level of aluminum in a vaccine is very small and been proven safe over 60+ years of testing and use, you repeat over and over “Injecting aluminum = guaranteed Alzheimers!!! Not safe! See discredited doctor’s videos on the YouTubes!!” this is when we start to get testy.

            There is a world of evidence (citable, even) that we have provided information from and links to, but you keep tossing out the same two or three things in response (I can’t even call it a rebuttal). Not working, dude.

          • Okay. Do an experiment for me.

            First, watch this:

            https://youtu.be/ODf_sPexS2Q

            Second, watch this:

            https://youtu.be/xn2jB_s-8VM

            And here comes the practical part. Please add a little sodium chloride (it will be marked in your cupboard as “table salt.”) into some boiling hot water (hot water from the kettle will do) and stir it throughly.

            Once you’ve breathed some of the salty-steam in … please come back and report whether the table salt behaved like either of the videos.

          • Sonja Henie

            Why? She’s a quack. That’s well documented! If you want to learn about vaccines, you don’t Google anti-vacccine practitioners.

            Here, try this: http://immunize.org/

          • Barzini

            Still waiting for you to tell me what is wrong about what she is saying

          • Roadstergal

            OK, if you’re not going to give us any papers…

            Give us a concise list of her points. If they’re the same as yours, we’ve already addressed them, but, you know – we’re nice. Benefit of the doubt, and all.

          • Barzini

            If you get the time let me know….

          • Roadstergal

            Do you not understand the points you’re trying to make?

          • Sonja Henie
          • Sonja Henie

            More: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/16/dr-suzanne-humphries-and-the-internation/
            “Polio virus was not responsible for the paralysis in the first part of
            the 20th century.”

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Suzanne_Humphries
            “Suzanne Humphries is a nephrologist (kidney doctor) who has recently (as of 2011) become a vocal proponent of pseudoscience and quack medicine. Humphries has been involved with the International Medical Council on Vaccination, a front group for vaccine hysteria, and is a signer of the organization’s anti-vax Project Steve petition. She has written several blog posts and done several podcasts and interviews insinuating that kidney failure is caused by vaccines.
            Humphries uses this purely anecdotal, unstudied, “feeling” of vaccines’ role in kidney disease to try and justify why her complete lack of training in any relevant field of immunology or vaccines doesn’t disqualify her as an “expert” on the topic.”
            Plus much more.

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html
            http://sparkonit.com/2013/12/30/misconception-about-vaccines-a-review-on-dr-suzanne-humphries-claims/
            “The claims on vaccination made in video by Dr Suzanne Humphries are unsupported by any scientific evidence and sound more pseudoscientific, backed up by emotional phrases to convince people how bad vaccination is, it will easily fool people and make sense to those who are unaware of how vaccines work.”
            That’s you, Barz!

            http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/suzanne-humphries-bad-advice-on-the-polio-vaccine/
            “Israel’s Ministry of Health has been monitoring the sewers since 1988 as an early warning system for the presence of the poliovirus. In June 2013 wild poliovirus was found in the sewage in some of Israel’s southern cities. Testing discovered wild poliovirus in several children who were previously vaccinated with IPV.

            Ratherthan wait until the first case of paralysis or death from polio, the Israeli Ministry of Health, acting on guidance from the World Health Organization (WHO) for situations like this, decided to vaccinate all children under the age of 9 who have already been vaccinated with two doses or more of the Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) (the only one givento children since 2005) with the Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV), a live, attenuated vaccine.The goal was to prevent spreading the virus to those unvaccinated because they are too young or too ill or because of their parents’ choice, or those in whom the vaccine wore off. The decision sparked a controversy in Israel, with even parents who are usually pro-vaccine
            concerned and parents who are anti-vaccine vocally opposed.

            Dr. Suzanne Humphries is an M.D. who now rejects conventional medicine in favor of “holistic” medicine, including homeopathy. She is also an anti-vaccination activist. Dr. Humphries took it upon herself to warn Israeli parents not to vaccinate their children with OPV, undermining the Ministry of Health’s efforts to prevent an outbreak of this dangerous disease.

            Dr. Humphries’ first approach to Israeli parents was on a June 30, 2013 Youtube video with problematic, unreliable claims. For example, Dr. Humphries claimed polio epidemics were caused by widespread use of DDT, ignoring both the New York epidemic of 1916 ,which preceded widespread use of DDT, and the fact
            that the claim has been thoroughly debunked. Worse, Dr. Humphries’ video tries to convince parents that polio is not
            dangerous; while most people who contract the disease will not have those symptoms, polio can cause paralysis or death. The CDC says “Estimates of the ratio of inapparent to paralytic illness vary from 50:1 to 1,000:1 (usually 200:1).”

            She knows more than the World Health Organization, eh, Barz?

            And, she is on the list of the Encyclopedia of American Loons.
            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html

            “You see, not only are vaccines unnatural, they are “disease matter”,which, I suppose, is a compelling point for anyone who swears by the laws of medieval alchemy.

            You know, a real sign of quackery is claiming you know more than all the other authorities in a particular field.

          • Reality022

            She’s an effing mental case, IMO.

          • Ron Roy

            ”That’s why these guys can’t get their stuff in peer-reviewed journals, right?” No it’s because peer reviewed journals rely on the advertising dollars of the pharmaceutical industry and they will not publish anything that will hurt their bottom line.

          • Azuran

            *rolling my eyes until they make a 360*
            No, it’s because they are crap study made with shitty scientific method.
            There are a LOT of studies that were published out there that go against the ‘bottom line’. Stop thinking everything is a conspiracy.

          • shay simmons

            The nasal flu vaccine getting short shrift from ACIP being only the most recent case in point.

          • Heidi_storage

            Wrong, wrong, wrong. The editors’ and journals’ bottom lines don’t depend on what they publish, and pharma companies have absolutely NO power to compel editors to publish anything. Editors love publishing novel stuff, as long as it looks legit.

          • Reality022

            Sears?
            Quack, quack, quack, quack!

            Readers note his claim to fame is his “alternative vaccine schedule”. When asked about any evidence for his “schedule” [being safe and effective] his answer was – “There is very little to no evidence.”

            Viz:
            www(dot)reddit(dot)com/r/IAmA/comments/1728o9/iama_coauthor_of_the_baby_book_edition_everything/

            itsajelly 99 points 3 years ago*
            “Dr. Sears, what evidence do you have to support your alternative vaccine schedule? Do you think it’s possible it validates parents’ fears about vaccines rather than alleviates them?”
            .
            DrBobSears[S] 76 points 3 years ago
            “There is very little to no evidence.
            .
            Now there’s a guy who has some credibility and isn’t just pandering to his irrationally frightened patients by giving them his own, personal, untested schedule that he doesn’t even know is safe or effective.

            He should lose his license.

          • Barzini

            Here’s a quote from Dr. Paul Offit:

            “Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity. It is found in all tissues and is also believed to play an important role in the development of a healthy fetus”

            I still listen to what he has to say

          • Sonja Henie

            Give a flippin’ source.

          • Who?

            That youtube video again, wait and see.

          • Reality022

            Oh look!
            Barzini is shown that Bobby Sears’ main claim to fame was pulled from Bobby’s colon and wiped onto the pages of the book he’s selling and Barzini’s response is to ignore that fact and change the subject – just like all the other anti-vaccine cultists.

            How unusual.

            Sears should lose his license because he is recommending an untested protocol that he admits hasn’t been shown to be safe or effective. He may be recommending a schedule that does a great deal of harm.
            His schedule may cause teh autismz and teh autoimmune diseases. Sears doesn’t know and doesn’t care just as long as he sells books and office visits.

            It doesn’t get sleazier than that.

          • Daleth

            That quote is, as I recall, not from Offit but from his employer, the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. Whoever said it, they’re right. Aluminum is the third most common element on the planet earth (oxygen is #1) and it is found naturally in so many plants and animals that the average adult ingests 7-9mg every single day.

            And the average exclusively breastfed baby ingests 7mg of aluminum from its mother’s milk in its first six months of life. In other words, babies get almost twice as much aluminum from breastmilk as they do from vaccines, since following the CDC vaccine schedule results in a baby getting 4.4mg of aluminum adjuvants in its first six months.

            Then once the baby starts cereals and other solid foods, it gets far more aluminum in its diet. Vaccines don’t even come close to delivering the amount of aluminum that a normal toddler would eat in a week.

            One source (there are many other reputable sources for these facts):
            http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum#.V8rN_q4deHk

          • Barzini

            The old ingestion is the same as injection defense – hilarious

          • Daleth

            The old ingestion is the same as injection defense – hilarious

            Explain to me how it’s not, Barz. Neither ingestion nor injection delivers anything straight into the bloodstream. Neither injection nor ingestion keeps the substance in question from reaching the brain. Since time immemorial people have been killed by poisons that they “merely” ingested. Eating cyanide, for instance, will shut down your respiratory system so you suffocate to death.

            As for neurotoxins, eating badly prepared puffer fish–that is, ingesting the neurotoxin it contains–shuts down your nervous system, paralyzing and killing you within a couple of hours (see link below). The same is true of botulism–that’s another neurotoxin that can kill you within a couple of hours of your eating it.

            So can you explain, using non-quack sources, what you think the big difference between ingestion and injection is?

            Puffer fish:
            http://hubpages.com/food/Why-Japanese-Fugu-Sushi-Can-Kill-You
            “The very moment you consume tainted puffer fish, the tetrodotoxin poison… immediately attacks the nervous system… which prevents your neurons from communicating with each other and more importantly with your brain.”

          • Mike Stevens

            The end result of both is aluminium in the systemic circulation.
            The only difference is how it got there in the first place.
            Are you really this stupid?

          • Sonja Henie

            I think we know the answer to that.

          • Wren

            Doesn’t Sears actually advise those who choose not to vaccinate or choose to follow his delayed schedule to keep that decision quiet, so their kids are still protected by herd immunity?

          • Reality022

            Why yes, yes he does.
            Intentionally undermining public health efforts – another reason his license should be pulled.

          • Amazed

            Ah yes, you have your kids just walk around like human bombs proclaiming that healthy children should not be bothered by preventable diseases. Besides that being a lie, you blatanty show your regard to those who aren’t this fortunate. There is none.

            But you don’t call others human waste! What a lovely soul you have! You won’t call that even when you and your little disease vector sicken and perhaps kill them.

          • Barzini

            I have no problem with preventing preventable disease – just not by injecting neurotoxins

          • Sonja Henie

            Don’t break your neck falling off your high horse!

          • JoeFarmer

            No one will ever accuse you of being smart, Nilweenie.

          • Azuran

            Except that our ‘certain doctors’ are basically 99% of all doctors, immunologists, pediatrician and every kind of health care provider.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Barzini – given that Suzanne Humphries is a total loon (see Nick’s link about), I put no stock in anything she says.

          And yes, Nick “read that already.” He is very familiar with Humphries. He already knows that she is a quack, and therefore has the link explaining it handy.

          For pete’s sake, you actually think you are telling us stuff we haven’t heard a hundred times already? You have said nothing new. We’ve heard it all before.

          • Barzini

            And yet you still think injecting children with neurotoxins is a good idea

          • Sonja Henie

            What neurotoxins are you referring to?

          • Barzini

            Aluminium

          • Sonja Henie

            PRATT.

          • Barzini

            Jeez, now it’s clear, I’m gonna start injecting

          • Nick Sanders

            On this page alone, it’s starting to feel like.

          • Wren

            Please tell me how much aluminum/aluminium the average baby ingests in their first year. Go ahead and give it for both breastfeeding and formula feeding. Then tell me how much is injected in vaccines.

          • Barzini

            You don’t inject breast milk or tuna

            It doesn’t get past the blood brain barrier

            I eat apple pips, but don’t inject cyanide

          • Nick Sanders

            Ingestion vs injection makes no difference to the blood-brain barrier. And mercury from tuna absolutely does get past the blood-brain barrier.

          • Barzini

            A vaccination is deliberately designed to cause a massive immune system response – it’s a completely different story

          • Roadstergal

            *buzzer* Incorrect, sir or madam.

            A vaccine is very specifically NOT designed to cause a massive immune system response. It is designed to cause a small, targeted response to create memory.

            Have you considered taking a biology course?

          • Barzini

            Either way, it’s a lot different to eating a tuna sandwich

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, it’s much better for you.

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, that is true. Tuna has methylmercury, which is an actually-harmful form of mercury that gets to the brain readily. See my link above. A vaccine is orders of magnitude safer.

          • Barzini

            OK, I’ll keep eating tuna and you keep injecting babies with mercury

          • Roadstergal

            That is, again, toddler-level logic. “X is way safer than Y.” “Well, no, as you can see from the evidence, Y is safer because of these reasons.” “Well, FINE, I’m just going to KEEP DOING X!”

          • Sonja Henie

            There is no thimerosal in any routine childhood vaccine.

          • Barzini

            Why not?

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, cute little trap, eh? Because acitivists insisted that Thimerosal in vaccines caused autism. The research never supported that, the WHO strenuously disagreed with removing it b/c it made vaccines more expensive, something the wealthy anti-vax parents never have to worry about, but the rest of us do, especially back then when insurance wasn’t required to cover vaccines, and autism rates have gone up if anything since it was removed. Happy?

          • Who?

            Because it was removed in a misguided attempt to appease people like you. That attempt failed.

            When people have a powerful need to be speshul and natcheral, reasoning with them is a waste of time.

            As you are demonstrating here today.

          • Reality022

            So your anti-vaccine disinformation was blown out of the water by Roadstergal and your response is to ignore it with a handwave and then babble some juvenile taunt?
            What a seeker after TRVTH you are!

          • Nick Sanders

            Define “massive”.

          • Roadstergal

            The kind you get from a measles infection?

          • Barzini

            bigger than big, but not as big as monumental

          • Roadstergal

            So – about _this_ big?

          • Barzini

            a little bit bigger, but you’re about right

          • Roadstergal

            _This_ big was a femtometer. So just a little bigger than that – yes, sounds about right.

          • Nick Sanders

            Am I on Candid Camera? Did I wander into some sort Marx Brothers skit without being told? Please tell me you don’t consider that an actual answer.

          • Reality022

            Barzini picked up her crayon and scrawled, “A vaccination is deliberately designed to cause a massive immune system response…”

            Don’t understand this vaccine/vaccination stuff at all, do you?

            Here’s what you should have scribbled –
            “A vaccination is deliberately designed to cause an massive adequate immune system response. Some vaccine antigens do not trigger an effective level of immune response so smart/genius scientists have figured out how to achieve the desired immune response through the use of adjuvants.”

            The facts compared to your delusions are, as you say, “a completely different story”.

          • Barzini

            adjuvants made from proven neurotoxins

            Go for it, have a double dose

          • Azuran

            Oh I would totally have a double dose. Because it’s totally safe you idiot.

          • Charybdis

            Adjuvants made vaccines safer. Know why? Because adjuvants made it possible to use less of the infective element in the vaccine because the addition of an adjuvant helps the body develop the appropriate immune response to a small portion or inactivated portion of the actual disease causing agent.

            You think it is safer to inoculate someone with a live, active virulent version of these diseases?

          • Mike Stevens

            That would be a different story, yes.
            So why talk about it when you are meant to be discussing aluminium?

          • Wren

            Vaccines are not injected into the brain. They are also not injected into the bloodstream.

            Babies and toddlers often end up with small cuts in the mouth (teething/teeth plus learning to move lead to falls, accidentally biting themselves, etc) so breastmilk or formula would certainly come in contact with the bloodstream.

          • Sonja Henie

            Also, breast milk is digested and the products of digestion get into the blood stream. I know you know this, but Barzini doesn’t seem to understand that’s how babies grow!

          • Roadstergal

            Orally administered methylmercury from seafood gets in the brain. Eg:

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653505004637?np=y

            FFS.

          • Azuran

            Cyanide is still totally super toxic when you eat it dude. So why are you eating a known poison?

          • Roadstergal

            It’s almost like… the dose makes the poison…

          • Sonja Henie
          • Mike Stevens

            0.5% of ingested Al is absorbed into the bloodstream.
            It can go anywhere that injected Al goes.

          • Good job that’s not in vaccines then. Compounds aren’t elements.

          • Who?

            Where can that kind of talk possibly lead? Barzini isn’t susceptible to silly old science. What about all his feelings????

          • Lurkers.

          • Michael McCarthy
        • Nick Sanders

          I think Humphries is a splendid example of ultracrepidarianism and should shut up about things she clearly knows jack shit about.

          • Barzini

            Would you class the presentation as complete nonsense? Genuine question…..

            What about the researchers who are investigating a hypothesis that aluminium causes alzheimers – are they loons also?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d class pretty much everything Humphries has ever said about vaccines, and a few other topics, as complete nonsense. And she is not one of those researchers.

            But hey, tell me when a toddler develops Alzheimer’s won’t you?

          • Barzini

            If you ever get round to telling me what she gets wrong let me know – I am genuinely interested in what a staunch pro-vaxer like yourself thinks about it (I’m fully aware of the dangers of biased information)

            But please no more of what you think about the person

          • Nick Sanders

            I did, twice.

          • Barzini

            You really didn’t – I genuinely would like to know what she gets wrong – I fully admit I’m no expert

          • Nick Sanders

            Both of my links contain explicit information on what she gets wrong. FFS. It’s like you are completely unwilling to do any but the most shallow observation on this:
            Homeopathy.
            Ignoring and even twisting evidence.
            Outright making shit up.

          • Mike Stevens

            There is this too.
            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/08/anti-vaccine-parents-and-the-package-insert-paradox.html#comment-2873913760
            Almost everything she claims to be factual falls apart on closer examination.

          • Who?

            It’s been done to death. It was investigated in the 70s and got nowhere.

            That said, we know more, we do better.

            Since no one young enough to have had modern vaccinations is old enough yet to be in line for AD, I take it you aren’t suggesting a link there?

    • Reality022

      Suzy Humphries seems to be completely ignorant of vaccines and immunology. Take a look at this howler of an error/lie that is a very fundamental concept and is very fundamental knowledge:

      www(dot)vaccinationcouncil(dot)org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/
      “Herd Immunity.” The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination, Suzanne Humphries, MD
      Quoting Humphries loondrool:
      “Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk.”
      Bzzzt!
      Wrong!
      No passive immunity from breastfeeding:
      www(dot)ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pubmed/8886155
      Measles antibodies in the breast milk of nursing mothers.
      “Our result suggests that very little level of measles antibody is passed through the breast milk.”
      and:
      Immunity, breastfeeding, and the timing of measles vaccine
      “Doesn’t breastfeeding give baby antibodies? Wouldn’t that prevent measles? Or can breastfeeding interfere with the MMR vaccine?”
      “Breastmilk does contain antibodies, but they’re a different kind of antibodies. They’re not the IgG antibodies that circulate in the blood, they’re IgA antibodies that concentrate more in body secretions, including nasal mucus and breast milk. These IgA molecules don’t interfere with vaccines. They provide modest protection against mostly gastrointestinal infections (think diarrhea and vomiting illnesses)—which makes sense, because the breastmilk IgA molecules are swallowed. They don’t make their way into the blood, or at least not very much—like other proteins, if you swallow them they’re mostly torn apart during digestion. Breastmilk IgA provides just a little protection against infections that are caught via the respiratory tract, including the common cold and measles.”

      IgA – which is not the type of antibody found circulating in blood. It is promptly digested like other proteins.
      Suzanne Humphries is an idiot.
      .
      The next part of her moronic quote:
      “Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity. One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant.”
      Bzzzt!
      Wrong again! She’s broached 2 topics and is idiotically wrong on both.
      Mothers with MMR induced antibodies do pass on transplacental passive immunity:
      www(dot)ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pubmed/14646978
      Passive acquired immunity against measles in infants born to naturally infected and vaccinated mothers.
      Protective antibody titers were detected in 50% of infants from group I and only 18.2% in group II (p<0.02).
      ***Note Group II is vaccinated.
      CONCLUSIONS: Passive acquired immunity in infants born to mothers who have had measles lasts longer than in infants born to vaccinated mothers. Nearly two thirds of infants (65.4%) in the 7th month of life did not have sufficient maternally derived neutralizing antibodies to protect against measles. Our data suggest that the recommended age for the first dose of measles vaccine during measles epidemics should be lowered to 9 months, with re-vaccination at 12-15 months.
      The conclusion? Both groups passed along passive immunity. Immunity from mothers who had wild measles lasts longer.
      .
      www(dot)ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pubmed/9178461
      Passive immunity against measles during the first 8 months of life of infants born to vaccinated mothers or to mothers who sustained measles.
      Neutralizing antibody titers of 47 infants whose mothers sustained measles (measles group) and 70 whose mothers were vaccinated (vaccine group) were compared at birth, 4 and 8 months of age. All children had antibodies at birth and 88% at 4 months. At 8 months, 49% had antibodies in the measles group and 15% in the vaccine group (P < 0.001).
      .
      etc., etc., etc. Suzy is an ignorant alt-med twit or a liar. Take your choice.

      Why anyone would take advice from this demonstrable medical moron is beyond me.
      Any questions?

      • Mike Stevens

        And the clinical correlate to that evidence is the observational finding that despite breast feeding being almost universal in the third world for around 2 years for each infant, they are the ones with a massive burden of infant measles cases and deaths.

        If breast feeding prevents measles, what measles-mimicking disease are these kids dying from? Dengue? Smallpox? Green monkey disease? Loony redspot syndrome?

    • americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html

    • Heidi_storage

      Barzini is boring. “Watch this awesome video! Aluminium is VERY BAD, but only when injected! There might be a tiny risk of Something Bad happening when you get a vaccine, so I ain’t doing it! You are poopy heads because you won’t watch the awesome video!”

      Repeat dozens of times, and there ya have his entire argument (and source list), folks. And if that doesn’t convince you that vaccines are dangerous, then…you are probably a reasonable human being.

      • Barzini

        Keep on injecting those neurotoxins, no one is stopping you

        • Azuran

          Well, I don’t know what you have been injecting yourself with. But whatever it is, judging from your comments those past few days, it sure has been affecting your brain.

          • Barzini

            “There’s no question that mercury does not belong in vaccines.

            There are other compounds that could be used as preservatives. And everything
            we know about childhood susceptibility, neurotoxicity of mercury at the fetus and
            at the infant level, points out that we should not have these fetuses and infants
            exposed to mercury. There’s no need of it in the vaccines.”

            “Mercury in Medicine – Are We Taking Unnecesary Risks?” Hearing Before the Committee on Government
            Reform; 106th Congress; July 18, 2000; page 212 ; Serial No. 106-232 (Testimony of Dr. H. Vasken Aposhian,
            Professor of Molecular and Cellular Biology, and Pharmacology, University of Arizona)

          • Daleth

            And that’s why we removed thimerosal from childhood vaccines, fifteen years ago. No childhood vaccine given in the US since then contains any thimerosal at all. The only vaccine a child could get with thimerosal is the flu shot, but the flu mist nasal spray is also available and contains no thimerosal, and in any case the flu shot is not required.

            Wow! It’s amazing how autism rates plummeted after we took thimerosal out of vaccines! …oh wait…

          • Barzini

            Yeah, and the number aluminium vaccines has increased over the same time

          • Azuran

            But since mercury and aluminum are not the same thing, the effect would not be the same. It would have a different effect. Which we have not seen either.

          • Barzini

            sure, it’s all hunky dory, proven neurotoxins being injected into babies – awesome

          • Azuran

            Like we said again, and again, and again. Dose matter. You obviously have 0 open mindedness, why are you still wasting your time here? You are not interested in learning anything.

          • Sonja Henie

            Spammy repetition.

          • Barzini, if it’s proven….

            All you have to do is tell us, with cites:

            1)At what dose is the chemical neurotoxic
            2)At what dose is it in the product

            Why can you not do this?

          • Sonja Henie

            Has it? Please document!

          • Charybdis

            You can vaccinate aluminum?

          • Sonja Henie

            Also, thimerosal-free flu shots are available. There is no vaccine, for kids or adults, that does not have a thimerosal-free version.

          • Azuran

            As Daleth said. Even though we had no proof whatsoever that it did anything dangerous, we still removed it because of idiots like you who don’t understand science. And yet, after we removed it, absolutely nothing changed. Proving us right and you wrong. And yet you are STILL going on about it.

          • Barzini

            Is the guy who made the quote below an idiot also? and all the other doctors and researchers who recommended the removal of mercury? They were all idiots?

            And yet you have faith in a system that has so many idiots in influential positions?

            “There’s no question that mercury does not belong in vaccines.

            There are other compounds that could be used as preservatives. And everything
            we know about childhood susceptibility, neurotoxicity of mercury at the fetus and
            at the infant level, points out that we should not have these fetuses and infants
            exposed to mercury. There’s no need of it in the vaccines.”

            “Mercury in Medicine – Are We Taking Unnecessary Risks?” Hearing Before the Committee on Government Reform; 106th Congress; July 18, 2000; page 212 ; Serial No. 106-232 (Testimony of Dr. H. Vasken Aposhian, Professor of Molecular and Cellular Biology, and Pharmacology, University of Arizona)

          • 9th grade chemistry failure. Next.

          • Barzini

            And these guys? These guys are idiots also?

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Azuran

            Yes

          • Barzini

            Well how can you have faith in an establishment that has so many idiots in it?

          • Azuran

            Well, for one, Dr. Sears is considered an idiot by his own establishment.
            There are idiots everywhere. Which is why we rely on peer review and the scientific method.
            And a youtube video is neither.

          • Azuran

            and I can’t believe you are STILL posting those same stupid video.
            Talk about a one trick pony

          • Barzini

            still waiting for a critique, that’s why

          • Azuran

            Oh we told you many time: It’s full of lies, not worth of consideration.

          • Mike Stevens

            Its a long video, so I just dropped into it at random.
            (see below)
            This was interesting.
            The first study she cites (Flarend) is a study on 6 rabbits, 5 of which got IM adjuvant injections. It does not say what Humphries says it says. It actually is supportive of the safety of vaccination with aluminium adjuvants, and the authors say so. The increase in Al levels in serum was 0.8% after IM injection, and these levels dropped subsequently. The lowest levels of Al were in the brain, with extremely low levels of retention.

            The second study is on human infants (Movsas), and again doesn’t say what Humphries says it says at all. In fact it never concluded aluminium is not excreted at all – it demonstrated that serum levels of baseline aluminium did not rise at all following injection. If this is the case, then how is it dangerous?

            The last study is by Priest, who used aluminium citrate injection (not an adjuvant). Less than 1% remained detectable afetr 48 hours.

            So none of these papers support Humphries calims. In fact, I’d say her misrepresentation of them was so gross that it amounted to professional misconduct. She is certainly wilfully lying.

            I don’t really want to fisk the other 110 minutes of this execrable video, thanks. on minute was enough to show me what a charlatan and devious quack this woman is.

          • Barzini

            Thanks, exactly the kind of info I was looking for

            She also mentioned how incidence of scarlet fever has plummeted despite there being no vaccine – without mentioning that it is treated by antibiotics – that sounds very dodgy also

          • Mike Stevens

            Scarlet fever incidence changes periodically. Vaccines have nothing to do with it, no, but did you know that it has dramatically increased in the last few years?
            https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-rising-scarlet-fever-across-england

            How would Humphries interpret that I wonder….. a disease incidence rising because there is no vaccine?

          • Barzini

            I’m agreeing with you, I was pointing out how she deliberately avoided mentioning antibiotics – ie she insinuated that the decline in incidence was somehow natural

          • Mike Stevens

            I understand.

          • kfunk937

            I’ve only ever seen one case, about 20 yrs ago in a walk-in clinic. And I didn’t recognise it immediately when I saw it, even though my late husband had Rheumatic Fever as a child, before antibiotics.

            From what you’ve written before, the UK is getting pasted with a scarlet fever. It’s only a matter of time before it happens in the US, I suppose.

          • Mike Stevens

            My son had it earlier this year..

          • Kq

            I had it as a child, twice in rapid succession.

            This was because I’d successfully argued (at about five) that I was a big girl and could take my medicine ALL BY MYSELF. And then my mother spied and found I was dumping my antibiotics down the drain all week.

            That’s one of two spankings I ever got in my life. The worse punishment was the second round of scarlet fever. I’m nearly 40 and I remember it VIVIDLY.

          • corblimeybot

            My brother had scarlet fever when we were kids, about 25 years ago. His teacher thought he was exaggerating how bad he felt, and made him walk home from school covered in vomit.

          • Yep, another dodgy thing they like to try and pull is this:

            “Diseases were going down before vaccines. [Mortality (i.e. Death) graph goes here]

            Also, watch for cherry-picked incidence graphs.

          • Reality022

            Gee, she’s one of their “strongest” advocates and it seems she is either a complete ignoramus or a sleazy self-serving liar… or both.
            And her research publication record is unimpeachable (only in that it is also unfindable).

            The “experts” the anti-vaccine cult has on hand to defend their delusions are a laughable, motley crew of quacky, misfit unknowns and bat-sh!t crazy crackpots.

          • It’s so awkward when someone actually takes the time to view their “evidence.” Thanks for taking one for the boiler room team 🙂

          • Reality022

            Bob Sears spam, repeated on this discussion endlessly by Barzini.
            Spam.

            Reported as spam.

          • Barzini

            sure it’s spam, hilarious, the quicker you get me banned from this forum the better

            If a neuro scientist tells me injecting aluminium into mice causes brain damage – I’m concerned

            If you’re not then fine, keep injecting

          • Azuran

            You know that injecting basically anything directly in the brain is going to cause brain damage right.
            Like we’ve told you many many time DOSAGE MATTERS

          • Nick Sanders

            Reminds me of a “study” that I sometimes see cited as “proof” MSG is harmful because it causes lesions on neurons. What the people citing leave out it that the procedure used was to soak neurons directly in a 10% solution of the stuff. It’s hard to think of something that wouldn’t cause damage under those circumstances.

          • Azuran

            Yea, It’s like that viral video on youtube of someone pouring snake venom into blood and it turns all gooey and they are like ‘This is what it does inside your body!!!!!’
            Not saying snake venous isn’t super bad, but Blood is a super fragile substance. You can probably make it do the same thing with a lot of other relatively harmless product.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, for the cytotoxic venoms that is what it does inside your body. But you are right that blood is not the right substance to show it with, since you can get blood to go all nasty just by vigorously stirring it.

          • Or mixing it with specific different blood, for that matter!

          • Or like the cola project they did at school to show how much cola rots teeth when lots of the class was either losing baby teeth themselves or had younger brothers and sisters who were. Except…the cola-tooth was bathed overnight and most of the next day while it was in the flavoured water/weak juice for less than 5 hours. This was bullshit and I knew it at the time and I was like ~8-10.

          • Azuran

            so, you are actually trying to get yourself banned?

          • Mike Stevens

            “If a neuro scientist tells me injecting aluminium into mice causes brain damage – I’m concerned”
            Can we see that study or paper, please?
            Remember to ensure that the mice got the same dose of aluminium per Kg as human infants would, and not more, won’t you…

          • Barzini

            Here are a couple of his papers on Pubmed:

            Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/

            Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

            Here’s another from the Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry
            http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf

          • Azuran

            and yet, here we all are. not suffering from the complications those mice had. The study itself acknowledge that we don’t see the same sign at all in humans. They even hypothesize that a lot of other or concurrent factors could be at play here, like perhaps the fact that we aren’t mice. (Tylenol is extremely toxic in cats, for example. I hadn’t stopped taking it because it kills cat. Because I’m not a cat.)
            At most, they recommend more testing. Nothing else. They don’t recommend we stop vaccination.,

          • Barzini

            So you agree we should do more testing?

          • Azuran

            I have no problem with more testing. However, there is probably already a lot of testing out there.
            You think we wouldn’t have noticed it Alzheimer was way more frequent in vaccinated people?

          • Wren

            I figured it out! Barzini is a mouse! This is why he refuses to be vaccinated for human diseases at human doses. It all makes sense now.

          • demodocus

            andd then there’s chocolate and garlic! 2 of my food groups

          • Kq

            Ahhh, the four food groups. Garlic, chocolate, cheese and carbs.

          • Mike Stevens

            Ah, those would be papers by the “neuroscientist” Christopher Shaw, the ophthalmologist and antivaccine activist.

            Luck you didn’t cite the papers of his that have been withdrawn, such as the one in Vaccine.

            He seems to have done experiments in mice using (over 2 weeks) around 5 times the dose a human infant would receive in 5 years.
            Do you think that’s an honest comparison?

          • Maybe he’s spent too much time on vaccinepapers! Shaw. Tomljenovic. Derp.

          • Sonja Henie

            “If you’re not then fine, keep injecting”

            You are certainly not impressing ME by repeating the same tripe over and over, Marco, or Barzini.

          • Sonja Henie

            Thanks for reporting.

          • Ron Roy

            Can’t stand the truth can you?

          • Charybdis

            No, we just don’t suffer fools gladly.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Ron Roy

            All journals that are financed by drug companies. Evil power at it’s best.

          • Heidi_storage

            Sigh. I’ve actually worked on the staff of a medical journal, and reputable journals are not tools of Big Pharma.

            First of all, ad revenue (from drug companies and others) is only one source of financing for journals, and it has been falling precipitously in recent years owing to changes in the publishing industry and increasing restrictions. In the main, journals tend to be financed by the membership fees of the organizations who own the journal. For instance, part of the membership fee for the AMA goes toward producing JAMA.

            The peer review/manuscript acceptance process is carried out entirely separately from the ad inclusion process, and the editors are always extremely careful to ensure that an ad is not accidentally given advantageous placement (i.e. a birth control ad next to a birth-control article).

            All authors, reviewers, and editors must disclose all affiliations, study funding sources, and potential conflicts of interests.

            Studies that are financed by pharmaceutical companies are always given an especially careful scrutiny. If the reviewers or editors believe that the authors have overstated their results (especially in the Conclusion or Discussion), they make the authors edit the offending portion. All claims of novelty or other exceptionalism (e.g. “the lowest-dose estradiol available”) must be backed up with a literature search of PubMed, the Cochrane database, and other databases. All clinical trials carried out after 2005 must have been registered in a database such as the NIH’s ClinicalTrials.gov.

            Ghost authorship, honorary authorship, dual publication, and other authorly shenanigans are not looked upon kindly, and are grounds for suspension or banning from publishing in the journal.

            The peer-reviewed journal is most definitely not perfect, but the reputable editors’ ethical standards are WAY higher than those of the alt-med sites that are financed by herbal supplements, homeopathic “remedies,” dubious devices, and other witchcraft that people DIRECTLY HAWK to their gullible readers without any oversight whatsoever.

          • Azuran

            and ‘journals’ of anti vaxxers are better because????

          • Charybdis

            Because they know the TRUTH that the government, doctors, Big Pharma, and all rational people are keeping hidden as a way to OPPRESS the masses and maintain control over everyone!!!! *Insert maniacal laughter here* /sarcasm

            Those “journals” ego-stroke them, praise them and laud their so-called “intelligence”. They make them feel smug, superior and delighted to be included in an exclusive club, sorry, ECHO CHAMBER that infinitely repeats the incorrect information to reinforce these bad ideas. They feel special, one of the “elite”. Teh FEELZ trump actual science, every time.

          • Maud Pie

            You nailed it. They also bolster themselves with the Pollyanna offensive that anyone who doesn’t believe teh big pharma Eeevull conspiracy must be a naively optimistic ignoramus. That deters lots of people from challenging their conspiracy theory.

          • Ron Roy

            That’s easy to answer big money and power vs little or no money and certainly no power. Drug companies control almost every aspect of disease care and they oppose anything that will keep people healthy and that’s why doctors practice disease care and not healthcare. The few that do are persecuted by people like yourself.

          • Nick Sanders

            Drug companies are way smaller than oil companies. If oil companies can’t buy off the climate community, how did drug companies afford to buy off all the doctors?

          • Ron Roy
          • Mike Stevens

            Where’s mine then?

          • Azuran

            Anti-vaxxers journal still have 100% of the power to decide what will and will not make it inside their journal. So they can absolutely post anything that agrees with their view and block anything that doesn’t.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d love for you to show me where the National Academy of Sciences is financed by drug companies.

          • Ron Roy

            That’s easy. They’re financed indirectly through foundations like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Bill and Melinda Gates have invested heavily in drug company stocks sooo . You see how one hand washes the other.

          • shay simmons

            Still making this claim when you are completely unable to provide documentation to support it?

            Oh, wait. That’s par for the course with you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Bill and Melinda Gates also have souls and give a damn about the less fortunate. Snide insinuations are not evidence.

          • guest

            Funny, because they don’t seem to give a damn about destroying public education. My working hypothesis is that they do not have souls.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not in the mood to come up with some snippy way of asking, so I’ll just be straight: What in the hell are you talking about?

          • Well, explain to me what a soul is in ways we can test for then we’ll see.

          • Michael McCarthy

            Don’t strain yourself doing those mental gymnastics.

          • Ron Roy

            It was no strain at all thank you.

          • Please take some basic chemistry courses and get back to us.

        • Sonja Henie

          You seem to belong to a school of debate that says to just keep repeating your so-called “point” over and over again. I have some experience with such people. I will just say, look at what happened to Marco Rubio when he tried that. His opponents made a fool of him, not that they had to try hard!

          • Maud Pie

            I’m wondering if Barzini and my XH attended the same argument clinic. The repeated chanting with emphasis on some emotion laden phrase was his trick as well. Injecting NEUROTOXINS. ALUMINUM is a NEUROTOXIN. Vaccines cause LIFE CHANGING INJURIES. It’s like trying to reason with a pull-string talking action figure.

          • Sonja Henie

            Well, my present husband, 36 years and counting, said just recently he learned that technique in HS debate. I have beat him at his own game a few times.

          • Who?

            Perhaps he made a fool of himself, they just provided the stage and props….

    • Sonja Henie

      No pro-vax person is interested in what Suzanne Humphries thinks. She’s so far out, she’s out.

  • Barzini

    The reason I don’t vaccinate is because there’s a really small chance that a vaccination will cause severe life changing harm

    Whilst the chances of this are very low, we don’t understand why it happens yet

    Seeing as I’m perfectly healthy – I just don’t feel like taking that risk

    If you want to, that’s fine by me – go for it…..

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      But the risk of being harmed by the disease is much higher than the risk of being harmed by the vaccine. So if you care about the wellbeing of your children, you would vaccinate.

      • Barzini

        I agree – but the risk of potential contraction of disease is a future and still very unlikely possibility (especially if one is already healthy, eating well, etc…)

        Whereas, the other risk, while far smaller, is right now and has potentially very severe consequences

        I personally don’t fancy taking that risk, so I don’t

        I understand why you do though and that’s fair enough

        • momofone

          I think eating well and staying healthy (to the degree to which one gets to choose health) are very reasonable things to do. I’m curious about how they help if one is exposed to measles, or pertussis, or other vaccine preventable illnesses though.

          • Barzini

            No guarantee of course – but the stronger we are, the stronger our immune systems are,

            No I don’t have any peer reviewed studies to support this controversial and far out opinion

          • Sue

            Of course you don’t – because it’s nonsense.

            Prior to widespread vaccination, essentially every child got measles, mumps and chicken pox – even the uber-healthy. Most recovered, some didn’t.

            (Wait – have I missed your tone? Or are you being serious?)

          • Barzini

            Yeah I’m serious, a healthy person has less to worry about than a weak person when it comes to things like chicken pox

            Are we actually having this discussion?

            Imagine a perfectly healthy child and one who is close to starvation – who would be more likely to be the most severely affected by chicken pox?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            I guess parents of vaccine damaged children should just suck it up and be glad their kid took one for the team

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, I mean, that’s what you are saying these parents should do for you…

          • Barzini

            yeah, it’s like they’re native Americans and I’m General Custer with infected blankets, that’s exactly what it’s like……

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s not a completely disingenuous massive exaggeration of what I said. Nope, not at all.

          • Who?

            It’s interesting you see the parents as victims.

            Another nail in the coffin of your values and character.

          • Barzini

            In what way is a parent of a vaccine injured child not a victim?

          • Who?

            In what way is the actual injured person not the primary victim? You jump to sympathise with the parents, while bemoaning these imagined injuries to the children.

          • Barzini

            Imagined?

            Of course the injured person is the primary victim, but I feel pretty damned sorry for the parents also – as I presume you do to, no matter what the cause of the injury was.

            The fact that we often compensate parents of children who are injured by medical procedures (including vaccines) also supports that outlook

          • Amazed

            Do you feel sorry for Micha and Natalie’s parents as well? The kids who died because a like of you chose not to vaccinate their kid yet demanded that they be treated as if he couldn’t be possibly treated like a disease-carrier and brought him to a waiting room full of babies instead of arranging a private visit out of a building with vulnerable people?

          • Barzini

            You have evidence of this? Or are you merely repeating an anecdote from a biased source?

            You are claiming that six babies were infected with measles due to being in a waiting room with a teenager with measles – that’s one hell of a potent infection rate

            You are then claiming that 2 of these six babies developed SSPE and died

            The last time I checked it was thought that 1/2000 measles cases develop into SSPE

            This is some incredible stuff

            Sounds like anecdotal evidence to me – which remember is completely worthless in the world of science based medicine

          • Amazed

            Bullshit. I did have a reason not to believe your ability to judge someone as intelligent and sensitive.

            Listen, leech, unless you go with your kids in an isolated cave, you’re mooching off everyone else’s sacrifices. That’s a fact. Not sorry that you feel insulted. Since you are so happy to put others at risk and even tacitly admitted that you care not a whit about the not perfectly healthy people your special snowflakes might kill or maim, I consider it fair that you are a little miffed at your special status not being admired.

          • Barzini

            Inject away, have a double dose for all I care

            I deliberately send my kids to a school with an incredibly low vaccination rate – that’s the opposite of moochin

            If I was moochin, I would move to California, lie about vaccine history, and select a school with 100% vaccination rate

          • Amazed

            Really? Your kids never go outside? You never take them to the park? They never ride the bus?

            School is just one tiny part of mooching.

          • Amazed

            Oh, and by the way your hypocrisy is showing. Zero compassion, hmm? Only one kind of parents are victims. I guess those kids are less dead because they were killed by someone like you.

            Glad to have this one proven. I knew you were just hot air.

          • Barzini

            unsupported anecdotal evidence – looks like you have more in common with those ‘deluded mothers’ than you’d like to admit

          • Nick Sanders

            You are claiming that six babies were infected with measles due to being in a waiting room with a teenager with measles – that’s one hell of a potent infection rate

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

            In epidemiology, the basic reproduction number (sometimes called basic reproductive ratio, or incorrectly basic reproductive rate, and denoted R0, r naught) of an infection can be thought of as the number of cases one case generates on average over the course of its infectious period, in an otherwise uninfected population.[6]

            Disease Transmission R0

            Measles Airborne 12–18

          • Barzini

            I presume this teenager was in a waiting room with these babies for a few hours at the very most

            Is the infectious period for measles not something like three week?

          • Nick Sanders

            That… that’s not what infectious period means at all… uhm, are you sure you’ve ever read anything about disease? Anything whatsoever?

          • Barzini

            No, I admit I don’t know

            What does the 12-18 number refer to? The number of people infected per?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, that’s exactly what it means, the average number of other people a single infected person passes the disease on to.

          • Barzini

            OK, but over how much time? How long is the person with measles infectious for on average?

            I thought it was at least a week, but I admit I don’t know

          • Nick Sanders

            From roughly 4 days before the rash appears to about 4 days after it appears.

            http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/transmission.html

          • Barzini

            Thanks…..

            So there are 192 hours in 8 days
            That means that on average 0.1 people per hours are infected if we assume an R0 of 18

            So, if the teenager was in a waiting room for 3 hours, we would expect him to infect 0.3 people

            Instead, according to this anecdote, he infected 6 people = 20 times more than expected

            Then we are told that two of the babies developed SSPE and died – I remember hearing that on average 1/2000 measles cases become SSPE

            These stats seem extremely suspicious

          • Nick Sanders

            If “people infected” were some kind of constantly running computer program, sure. But people sleep, go off by themselves, and spend time with the same people they’ve already exposed. They aren’t just constantly parading past new people, accruing infection percentages.

            For SSPE, the exact numbers are hard to pin down, but the CDC put it at between 4 and 11 per 100,000 in the US between 1989 and 1991. That doesn’t mean a single outbreak has to hit 100,000/11 for there to be a chance of a person getting SSPE. It means out of all the people who get measles ever, roughly that many will get SSPE. Some will be from small outbreaks with higher than average numbers, as in this case, while others may be from larger outbreaks with lower than average rates of incidence. That’s the thing about mean averages of the whole, subsets rarely match it perfectly.

            Further, the risk of SSPE is higher in children who catch measles before two.

            http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html
            https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001419.htm

          • Barzini

            Yeah I agree with all that

            However I deliberately took the maximum R0 of 18 and I also assumed that they were all in the same room for 3 hours (which seems unlikely, it was probably less than an hour), in addition there was no physical contact, sharing of saliva etc….

            Obviously we don’t know, but the stats seem suspicious

          • Nick Sanders

            The only thing suspicious is your understanding of how infection works. And your really dodgy math.

          • Sonja Henie

            “Further, the risk of SSPE is higher in children who catch measles before two.”

            And infants under a year cannot be vaccinated against measles except in extenuating circumstances.

          • Sonja Henie

            Are you an engineer? Because they come up with stuff like that. Now mind you, some of my “best friends” are engineers, e.g. my father, two cousins on my father’s side, my husband’s two brothers, my son-in-law and my son-in-law to be, just to name a few. Plus, my husband does engineering work although his degrees are in physics. He’s not quite so nuts as the others, either. He tends to think I know what I’m talking about.

            If the teen was in the waiting room for 3 hours:
            1) That’s a pretty badly run office
            2) How many people he exposed depends on how many other people were there in those 3 hours. He exposed virtually all of them. Some of them were vaccinated; some were partially vaccinated (you get a dose at 12-15 mo and again at 4-6 years in most states); some, as in the babies under 12-15 months were unvaccinated. Newborns lose what little protection they have from their moms in 3-5 months, and breast feeding does not confer any additional immunity.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, it’s a very basic calculation

            However, the stats are very suspicious – that someone infected six other people in an hour or so, with no physical contact, and that two of them then died?

            That’s pretty damned crazy and the very definition of unsupported anecdotal evidence that people round here are usually so suspicious of

          • Nick Sanders

            “no physical contact”

            It’s an airborne disease! :slams head against wall:

          • Barzini

            I don’t mean it’s spread by contact, I mean that the guy never picked up the baby or went very close to it

            yes, I know it’s airborne

            If it was his baby sister and he was carrying her around and playing with her – there would be a greater chance of infection than if it was some random person a few meters away across the room

          • Nick Sanders

            You really have no clue how far droplets can travel, huh? “A few meters” is nothing. And that’s if he and the other people were rock still and never moved around the room at all during those 3 hours. They almost certainly got up a few times and moved around, if for no other reason than to keep their legs from aching.

            http://www.slate.com/articles/video/video/2014/04/mit_sneeze_study_new_research_shows_sneezes_can_travel_up_to_200_feet.html

          • Barzini

            Yeah, come on, even so, the closer you are, the more likely you are to spread infection

            I well remember learning in school about how Florence Nightingale reduced infection in her hospitals by moving beds further away from one another

          • Sonja Henie

            I worked in a pediatrics office. We sometimes had 20 people in the waiting room, a number of them under 12 months, most of the kids under 5 (most under 3, really) meaning only partially immunized, and a few old enough to be immunized but refuseniks.

            I’m not sure what outbreak you’re referring to above, and due to the vagaries of Disqus, I can’t find the original post. Would you be so kind as to fill me in?

          • Barzini
          • Sonja Henie

            Those are both about SSPE, a late effect of measles. Why don’t you believe them? Because Suzi told you SSPE is some made up disease?
            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/sspe-a-deadly-and-not-that-rare-complication-of-measles/

          • Barzini

            You can see how the stats seem suspicious

            The fact he infected six people in an hour or so is already incredible, the fact that two of them got SSPE (around 1 in 2000 cases) is even more incredible

          • corblimeybot

            Doesn’t really seem suspicious at all. Measles is terrifyingly contagious. Clusters of bad outcomes like SSPE can appear for all sorts of reasons, including chance. Data clumps sometimes. And that’s much more likely than “it’s a conspiracy!”

          • Barzini

            Well vaccines can also cause damage, especially ‘hot’ vaccines which generate clusters of injuries

            And yet the anecdotal evidence from these cases is dismissed with scorn on these pages

          • Charybdis

            What the hell is a “hot” vaccine?

          • “Bad batches.” They’re talking about manufacturing defects (sueable for, btw) in the same way that anti-vaxxers define vaccine injuries though.

          • Who?

            ‘These pages’ are not the be all and end all. Go back and play with your little friends who will comfort and support you in your ignorance and selfishness. You’re trying to pull the wrong crowd.

            See you at the hospital when you bring in a child demanding they be cured of a vpd your vanity left them open to contracting. We might even get a chorus of ‘doctors are so meeann’ at the same time.

          • Nick Sanders

            Hot?

          • Who?

            No, Nick, not hot, ‘hot’. Totally different.

            Do keep up!!!

            Though to keep up with this one you might need a bump on the head.

          • Sonja Henie

            You’ve got the facts all conflated. Although infecting six people in an hour is hardly incredible.

          • Barzini

            Well neither does being injured by a vaccine containing aluminium – but on these pages any mother that claims that is ‘deluded’ and any doctor that claims that is ‘human waste’

          • Nick Sanders

            Except measles is well documented to be one of the most contagious diseases around, while aluminum adjuvants have been repeatedly studied for safety, with good results.

          • Charybdis

            The measles virus stays airborne for up to two hours after someone with measles coughs or sneezes, which is highly likely because some of the early symptoms are a cough, runny nose and fever.

            The virus can also live for two hours on contaminated surfaces. And by “contaminated” I mean sneezed on or touched by a used Kleenex. If you have no immunity to measles ANY CONTACT with someone who is infected has a 90% chance of giving you the measles.

          • Nick Sanders

            I spend 4 hours in a waiting room once. granted it was a private practice family GP’s (or maybe a ped, it was a very long time ago, and I was still in elementary IIRC) office and I recall them having a ton of people there that day. Way, way more that I usually saw when I went.

            Thank goodness there were Lincoln Logs so I didn’t go insane.

          • Reality022

            Even an engineer would not make these grade school mistakes.
            I think you are dealing with a child or an adult who avoided math and science like the plague during middle school and high school.

            Edited to add: Or a chiroquack or a naturopathetic or an inaccustickurist.

          • Sonja Henie

            Obviously he never took a statistics course.

          • Reality022

            From looking at his maths babbling it is obvious she never took algebra… or at least never passed it.

          • Amazed

            You don’t need to take a statistics course to recognize his limitations. There was clearly a great failing in the educational system of the great wealthy Switzerland with this one. And I assume he still came out with an elementary school diploma.

            Horrible.

            Statistics courses are for more complex things.

          • Irène Delse

            My dad is a statistician. He likes to tell anecdotes of educated people, even math teachers sometimes, totally misunderstanding statistics.

          • Amazed

            I have no doubt it’s true. I totally misunderstand statistics as well and I am educated. That’s why I don’t really argue statistics. I am not competent. The thing is, it isn’t really stats that B. misunderstands. Is it really statistics to know that percentages and plain numbers calculate different things? I was taught this when I was 11 or 12, at school. Is it really statistics to know that if you want to see who gets sick more often, it’s percentages of vaxxed and unvaxxed that you should compare?

            And, which is more shocking, does one need stats to know that you cannot infect a part of person? I mean, maths part. One tenth, one hundredth… I’d think it’s plain old common sense. Sure, POCS is a part of stats, the way it is a part of literally every other science field. But that’s a part every college student – I am being generous here, since I’d actually expect it from every high school student – should understand. I am not talking about values and other complex issues. It’s evident, IMO.

          • Irène Delse

            I see what you mean. Percentages if more middle-school level math skills, IIRC. And then there’s basic human biology, like the concept of the internal environment of the body.

          • Amazed

            I take insult at this! *I* avoided maths and science like the plague every day at school. Was still infected with some because I am not an idiot and couldn’t avoid being infected. Somehow, I ended up knowing how you infect people and that you can’t infect a tenth of a person.

            My take is that Barzini is just a fool.

          • Reality022

            Behold the arrogant ignorance of the anti-vaccinationists.
            What are you? 13 years old?
            Chee-rist! Go back to middle school.
            The system isn’t linear nor is it continuous. Look up those terms applied to functions and systems.

            The R0 is an average of the population reproduction.

            The “teenager” isn’t uniformly and continuously and homogeneously infecting folks at a rate of 0.1 per hour.
            He may go 3 days without infecting anyone then meet with some friends and infect 5 of them.
            A child of 2 may not infect anyone by virtue of staying at home for those 8 days of sickness. Someone else is going to make up that 2 year old’s 18 victims to give the average R0 of 18. That means a teen may infect 10+ at one sitting.

            It is just an average.

            Readers who understand Jr. High math note the arrogant ignorance of the anti-science, anti-vaccine activists.
            … and the Dunning-Kruger effect on display. They’re so dumb they don’t realize they’re dumb.

          • Charybdis

            What. The. Fuck. Is. This.?

          • Nick Sanders

            I wish I knew. I’d love to know how one is supposed to infect tenths of a person. Or maybe I wouldn’t, because then I might just go mad.

          • Ironically, this is sort of how herd immunity works. If everyone creates less than 1 additional case…disease goes kaput.

            This is vastly oversimplified of course

          • Who?

            Somehow I don’t think that’s quite what Barzini’s number salad was intended to show…

          • Yep – It’s the same kind of irony as when we get to point out what natural immunity to rubella can do after a rant about MMR causing autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, I totally see how infection rates could drop to less than one in aggregate. But the idea of infect 0.3 people because it was a limited time interval just strikes me as bizarre. Like I said, it reminds me a of a computer program’s progress bar.

          • Yeh. I got distracted by the lack of knowledge of how measles works.

          • Amazed

            Barzini clearly thinks that you can infect just the leg of a person or something. Nothing this important. Certainly nothing producing consequences that an intelligent caring person like himself should be held accountable for.

          • Who?

            I think you’ll find all B cares about his all his rights. And maybe his freedums.

            Consequences and responsibility are for the poor and non-elite.

          • That’s because you’ve missed how measles works. The measles particles were there for 5 hours (3 hours + the extra 2 measles would have been viable for in the airspace)

            And the fact that he would have been contagious just about for about four days prior to becoming symptomatic.

            The measles SSPE rate assumes patients older than 2 since kids younger than that are at a greater risk of complications such as SSPE – infants are not older than 2.

          • Damo

            Yeah, you forget that the teenager was exposed to babies. It is not like the virus knows how many people it has infected and then stops when it gets to its magic number. We are talking about averages v. reality.

            I do agree about the bit about anecdotal evidence, though.

          • Sonja Henie

            Why have you been posting all this anti-vax crip-crap if you don’t know anything about it?

          • Barzini

            I don’t think expressing a concern about injecting a known neurotoxin into babies is ‘posting anvti-vax crap’

            I provided a few links which I fully admitted were only introductions in a quest to actually learn something

          • Sonja Henie

            You’ve posted much anti-vax crap on these boards.

          • Barzini

            I’m familiar with anti-vax ‘crap’ from places like facebook – I don’t think that’s what I’m doing here

          • Sonja Henie

            A “learning quest”, LOL! I suggest you look at Dr. Offit’s stuff on the CHOP website instead of visiting the website of a known quack and falling in love with her.
            http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center#.V8nte610osI

          • Barzini

            This guy isn’t a fan of Offit

            https://youtu.be/dmjxuGIc06g

          • Sonja Henie

            Who’s he?

          • Barzini

            He’s the guy that invented chemtrails, in his spare time he’s a flat earther

            There, no need to listen to what he says now

          • Sonja Henie

            Figured as much.

          • Sonja Henie

            LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! youtube!

          • Barzini

            It’s a doctor, he’s saying stuff, it was recorded, we can see it thanks to youtube

            you’re expressing yourself via Disqus – LOLOLOLLOLOLOLL

          • Sonja Henie

            Lots of doctors have opinions. I have opinions. That doesn’t mean they’re all correct.

          • Barzini

            Amen to that

            What do you think about this guy? Or do you still refuse to watch anything on Youtube?

          • Sonja Henie
          • Who?

            With you now: Doctor you agree with, paragon of virtue and to be obeyed at every turn.

            Doctor you disagree with: dangerously misguided fool.

            Good to know.

            So here’s the question: if your child, despite its wealth related good health is unfortunate enough to catch an illness a vaccine would have prevented, will you take said child to the doctor? Will you insist on asking said doctor loads of questions about their views on vaccines etc before allowing treatment for child?

            Or will you just insist that a passing medical professional FIX IT because you’re so wealthy and healthy you deserve the best and your child, by extension, does too?

          • Barzini

            It works both ways, doctors who question the safety of aluminium are ‘loons’ and ‘human waste’ according to commenters here

            I’ve got no problem with doctors, but I have a lot less faith in them than I did 10 years ago

          • Amazed

            You have a great problems with doctors. Doctors who don’t stroke your ego as an intelligent, caring, better parent.

            That’s what Sears built his model of profit upon – stroking parents’ vanity and as expected, you’re in awe with him. Undoubtedly you take his advice of “hide in the herd but don’t tell the herd you’re hiding” as a great revelation.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, this is the first I’ve heard of Boyd Haley, and within minutes of looking him up, I hated him.

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/10/737-boyd-haley.html

          • Barzini

            Here’s a quote from Offit:

            “Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity. It is found in all tissues and is also believed to play an important role in the development of a healthy fetus.”

            Big LOLs

          • Sonja Henie

            Let me tell you, bub, Offit knows way more about kids than Humphries.

          • Barzini

            I’m sure he does know a lot, it’s what he tells people that I’m concerned about

          • Azuran

            And here you miss the most basic rule of toxicology. It’s the dose that make the poison. EVERYTHING is toxic in high enough dosage. I can easily kill someone with water or oxygen, table salt or even by giving them blood.
            Yes, posting about ‘injecting a known neurotoxin’ IS posting anti-vaxx crap. You just showed up how uneducated you actually are.

          • Sonja Henie

            You don’t have to be around measles very long to catch it if you’re not immune. I don’t know the exact time period. AND, the virus can linger in the airspace for two hours after the person leaves. Measles is pretty much the most infectious disease on earth.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, I agree

            However, these stats are still pretty incredible

            I feel like you wouldn’t normally accept such dubious anecdotal evidence

          • Sonja Henie

            It’s not anecdotal, you idiot! These are the stats from numerous studies. I happen to know this stuff. It was my JOB to know it!

          • Sonja Henie

            I feel like you’re trying to insult me.

          • Charybdis

            The incubation period for measles is 14-21 days. This is the period after you have been exposed to the virus but before symptoms develop. Once the first symptoms of fever, cough and runny nose develop, the person is then contagious. This is the time that some will go to the doctor, thinking they have the flu or some other upper respiratory issue. The rash does not show up until 4-5 days after the fever, cough and runny nose develop and they continue to be contagious until 4-5 days AFTER the appearance of the rash.

            Transmission of the measles virus is airborne and it can stay airborne for two hours after an infected person coughs or sneezes in an airspace. Or if they wipe their eyes/nose/mouth and touch a surface, it can be caught for up to two hours.

            The unvaxxed kid who went to the doctor with what turned out to be measles sat in the waiting room, probably coughing and sneezing, with a runny nose, thus spraying the entire waiting room with virus-laden droplets. Measles is so contagious that 90% of those not immune to it will catch it from someone who does. These unvaccinated babies, too young for the MMR vaccine, breathed in the virus-laden drops so recklessly sprayed into the air by this unvaxxed kid and subsequently came down with measles. Two died as a result.

            Incubation time of 14-21 days BEFORE symptoms start. Symptoms of fever, cough, and runny nose show up 4-5 days BEFORE the spots show up. The patient is contagious from the time the fever starts until 4-5 days AFTER the spots show up. That is plenty of time to spread the disease around to vulnerable people. Especially since the spots show up late in the game to announce that this upper respiratory bug is, in fact, the measles.

            So an infected kid sitting in a waiting room for even 30 minutes can infect a lot of people.

          • Sonja Henie

            You are really ignorant (no that’s not an ad hominem, it’s stating a fact) if you think that because the incidence is 1/2000 that there have to be 2000 cases to see a case of SSPE.

          • How about Baby Riley, for that matter? Baby Riley was too young to be vaccinated for pertussis. His parents thought they could take some small amount of solace by donating his organs (not enough, obviously.) but sadly, the actual real toxins in pertussis infection meant they couldn’t. How many deaths is this in terms of lost opportunity costs from the toxins besides the original death?

          • Sue

            Parents of kids who have genuine (rare) reactions to vaccines are generally much more rational – and supportive of vaccination – than anti-vaxers who blame all manner of irrational conditions on “vaccine damage”.

            If no-one ever “took one for the team”, there would be no team.

          • Charybdis

            Define “vaccine damaged” for us please. Those people who have had, or whose children have had a genuine, adverse vaccine reaction are a very, very small percentage of the population.

            Some people will have a bad reaction to a vaccine. Someone has to be the statistic and there are ways to report and recover damages from a true adverse reaction. These are the things that will win you a legitmate medical exemption from vaccinating, so these people truly need the herd immunity to stay safe from VPD’s.

          • Barzini

            Luckily I don’t need to ‘win’ an exemption – luckily I live somewhere where the right to decide is sacrosanct – here’s hoping it stays this way

          • Charybdis

            Oh, it is not mandatory here. You have the right to refuse vaccines. Nobody is being strapped down and injected against their will. You do, however, have to live with the consequences of your choice, and this is the part that causes all the squawking, belligerence and indignation.

            You can choose to not vaccinate your children. That’s your choice as a parent. In doing so, you will not be allowed to enroll in public school, as well as some private schools. You will not be welcomed in places like hospitals and nursing homes (visiting friends or relatives in the hospital or Grandma and/or Grandpa in the nursing home) and maybe even activities like Scouting (not sure if they ask about vaccination status). You (general) then scream to high heaven about how your rights are being trampled on and you are being oppressed and “forced” into vaccination. Not so. You are simply being held accountable for your decisions and that is what is pissing you (general) right the hell off.

            There are rules. If you choose not to follow the rules, then you don’t get to play. Or, you can ignore the rules (not vaccinate), but when you are caught (trying to enroll kid in kindergarten, say), you then have a conniption if a “personal belief exemption” is not accepted as a valid reason for not vaxxing. Medical exemption signed by a doctor, no problem, enroll away. “I don’t believe in them” or “it is against my religion”, sorry. No school for you.

            You just don’t like the consequences of your choice.

          • Barzini

            Thankfully I live in a country (Switzerland) with a far higher standard of living than the US and where no one cares if you are vaccinated or not – schools don’t even think of asking

          • Charybdis

            Bully for you, but if nobody cares if you are vaccinated or not in your neck of the woods, why do you care about what is required or not in the US?

            Do you travel? Vaccines are required for out-of-country travel. To go to Europe, US travelers are required to have: MMR, DTaP and a current flu shot. France also requires Hep A & B and rabies. Russia also requires Hep A and Japanese Encephalitis and Turkey requires Typhoid and rabies. To go to South America, you are required to have: Hep A & B, Typhoid, rabies and yellow fever. Asia requires: Adult polio booster, tetanus, diphtheria, Hep A and yellow fever. Obviously SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE is concerned about outsiders bringing in diseases…

            Strangely, if you are traveling to the US (not immigrating), vaccines are not required to enter the country.

          • Barzini

            I’ve never been vaccinated and have been to most of those countries

          • Charybdis

            But if you are in the Schengen area of the EU, you don’t have to use a passport to move from country to country and they don’t/won’t check for immunizations.

          • Barzini

            I’ve been all through South and Central America, quite a bit of Asia and North America and a little bit of Africa

            Never had to have a vaccination or prove I had had one

            The only one I can think of is Yellow Fever – technically you need to have that before going to a few countries, although I think enforcement is lax

          • Box of Salt

            And thank goodness you live in a country that hasn’t experienced any outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases over the last decade or so!

            Oh, wait. Geneva, 2011 http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20395

            Then there’s 2006-2009, with 4415 cases reported http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19443

            And that outbreak spread to the United States: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/03/22/peds.2009-1653
            “In January 2008, an intentionally unvaccinated 7-year-old boy who was unknowingly infected with measles returned from Switzerland, resulting in the largest outbreak in San Diego, California, since 1991.”
            How is it that you can think allowing children to suffer preventable diseases is a higher standard of living?

          • Barzini

            The health outcomes here are better in just about ever measurable way – although that’s probably mostly to do with wealth

            Whatever, just to repeat, I’m not against vaccinations, I just want safe vaccines

            Injecting kids with aluminium isn’t an option for me

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            well now I should show you a pic of a baby severely harmed by a vaccine next to a distraught mother

            but I won’t, because it would just be an appeal to emotionalism

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, I stopped giving a damn when you moved from bad arguments to victim blaming. You can fuck yourself, for all I care.

          • Barzini

            Sorry, I must have missed the bit where I blamed dying for children for being sick

            I’ll make a note to improve my character

          • Who?

            Good luck finding that one-in-a-million picture!

          • Sue

            But you won’t find one, just like you couldn’t find any evidence for your other assertions.

          • Barzini

            Are you serious, there are thousands

          • Who?

            Oh dear the ‘poor people don’t matter’ trope. How tiresome.

            And predictable. You can’t imagine a world where you’re not part of the (self styled) elite, can you?

          • Sue

            “a healthy person has less to worry about than a weak person when it comes to things like chicken pox”

            Nope. I’ve seen strong, healthy people die from varicella pneumonities and respiratory failure. Sometimes, the immune response to the infection causes more harm than the organism itself.

            Measles commonly causes encephalitis, and rarely delayed SSPE.

            Mumps can cause sterility in men.

            We’re not talking about people “close to starvation” – we’re using vaccination to minimise morbidity and mortality across the whole population.

            For someone with such strong ideas, you don’t seem to know much about this stuff.

          • Amazed

            A perfectly healthy baby should just suck the chicken pox because you so choose? OTHER people’s perfectly healthy baby?

            I guess you don’t worry about those not perfectly healthy kids and adults you knowingly or unknowingly expose to your little disease vectors either.

            The two German kids who died because a pair of assholes like yourself prided themselves on their perfectly healthy child didn’t hesitate to rush the kid into a waiting room full of babies when their special healthy snowflake had measles were perfectly healthy babies as well, by the way. I guess you feel indignant that I call them assholes.

          • Barzini

            You are engaging in wild anecdotal stories

            Remember, anecdotes aren’t allowed round here

            If they were, I would provide you a never ending supply of them from the tens of thousands of mothers all around the world of vaccine injured children

          • Amazed

            No anecdote, sorry. And since the words don’t come from deluded mothers, they bear more weight than the tripe you promote.

          • Barzini

            ‘deluded mothers’

            Just look at the language you use – even though you know that vaccine injury does actually happen

            I fully admit that the typical anti-vax site is full of nonsense – but so are your posts, you are engaging in exactly the same emotional and anecdotal hysteria that they are, just from the other side

            I suggest you stop insulting concerned parents and find a way to address their concerns – or just leave them alone, but definitely drop the abuse

          • Charybdis

            My son had chickenpox when he was NINE MONTHS OLD. He was perfectly healthy, well fed, got plenty of sleep, all things that your ilk tout as being uber-preventative for illnesses.

            No idea where he caught it. None whatsoever. Nobody in his small, private day-care (him plus 2 other babies) had chickenpox or had come into contact with the chickenpox. The other 2 babies were not old enough to have received the vaccine either, nor did they develop the chickenpox after DS was diagnosed.

            His was not a particularly bad case, but he has scars from the chickenpox. He caught it because someone who didn’t vaccinate their child for chickenpox let their little disease vector out and about during the incubation period where they can infect others BEFORE THEY THEMSELVES GET SICK and are kept at home (hopefully). His pediatrician says that DS is the only one of his patients who actually got the chickenpox, because of the vaccine and the fact that it is 98%+ effective when given 2 doses.

            His practice group does not allow anti-vaxxers at all. They will not risk the health of babies and children who may be too young for a vaccination or those who are immunocompromised or have a valid medical reason to NOT vaccinate (allergies, adverse reaction, etc). I was quite pleased to hear that.

          • Barzini

            I’m not arguing against vaccination – I got chicken pox also

            I’m arguing against vaccines with things like aluminium in them

            I want safer vaccines, not no vaccines

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, he’s being serious. He actually believes this tripe.

          • momofone

            Of course you don’t. I wonder why.

        • Linden

          You’re very bad at weighing up risks.

          You’re also massively bad at figuring out that viruses can kill and harm your children even if they are previously healthy and well fed.

          You also don’t seem to know that the likelihood of catching VPDs are much higher when you live in a neighbourhood of idiots like you.

          Not only that, catching, say, measles, doesn’t make you stronger, it makes you weaker:
          http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-measles-vaccine-protects-against-more-than-just-the-measles/

        • Who?

          ‘…(especially if one is healthy, eating well, and surrounded by socially responsible people unlike myself)’

          Fixed it for you.

          That was a lot of weight on that ‘etc’ there.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Amazed

      The reason you don’t vaccinate is because you’re a leech. As simple as that.

      • Barzini

        Charming – hell of a lot of leeches where I live in that case (Switzerland)

        I’ll tell all these perfectly intelligent and caring people who also have concerns about vaccination safety that they are actually conspiracy loons and leeches – that’ll surely bring them over to your side

        It’s this utter contempt being shown to caring parents which is fueling anger and distrust – I’d adopt a different strategy if I were you

        Lowest measles vaccination rate in Europe last time I checked, schools here don’t even think to ask if your kid is vaccinated

        You best not come here on holiday either, or many many other countries in the world

        • Amazed

          Tell them whatever the hell you want.

          You want to mooch off our herd and then you want us to applaud you on the wisdom of your choices? It’s amazing what sensitive souls anti-vaxxers have. Everyone should cater to them, taking the risks AND being careful not to upset their fragile fee-fees.

          Your appraisal of someone as being perfectly intelligent and caring doesn’t carry much weight. It’s just that the person making it is incompetent, you see.

          • Barzini

            Trust me, I don’t want to mooch of your herd, if I did I’d live in a state where vaccination is mandatory for school children – I would never live in such a state

        • Maud Pie

          You are really laying on the self-righteousness thickly. Your self-serving characterization of yourself as intelligent, caring, etc does not persuade anyone outside your anti-vax cult. The most charitable descriptors I can use are misguided and gullible.

          If you truly had your children’s best interests at heart you would seek the most objective and most scientifically reliable information. Instead, you just chant over and over your catch phrase “life-altering vaccine injury” to rationalize your travesty of a risk benefit analysis.

          • Barzini

            I know a lot of people who don’t vaccinate, I can guarantee to you that they are caring and intelligent – wrong perhaps, but definitely caring and intelligent

          • rosewater1

            Some truly awful and misguided things have been done in the name of love. Not vaccinating because you love your children does NOT give you a free pass.

          • Barzini

            Feel free to inject your baby with aluminium, I’m not going to

            Here’s an abstract from a PubMed paper

            “Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

            You can also search ‘aluminium’ and ‘Alzheimers’ in Pubmed – lots of hits

            Or more specifically, you can go to:

            Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, Volume 29, Number 2 / 2012, pages 255-273

            Injecting aluminium, no thank you

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini
    • Dr Kitty

      The tiny risk of catching VPD only remains tiny if herd immunity protects you.

      You depend on other people to take risks that you aren’t willing to take in order to be protected. Which is selfish and opportunistic.

      Which works provided fewer than 10% of a population feels as you do.

      As soon as a large minority stop vaccinating, herd immunity disappears, VPD comes roaring back and the tiny risks of vaccination suddenly become less scary than the real risk of VPD.

      As for your “healthy people have nothing to worry about”- the worst chicken pox complications I have seen have been in previously healthy people.

      • Amazed

        “She stands before us like a living child.”

        Those are the words engraved over Olivia Dahl’s grave. She was a healthy child. She still died of measles.

        • Fleur

          So sad. Roald Dahl was one of my favourite authors as a child. I also loved Michael Rosen’s comic poetry, especially his poems about his son, Eddie, as a toddler. I was gutted a few years back to read that Eddie Rosen died of meningitis as a teenager. I gather that his father, for obvious reasons, now campaigns for vaccination against preventable diseases.

      • Barzini

        I agree, that’s why I’m hoping the research into safer vaccines bears fruit

        As soon as they are available I’ll reconsider

        • Charybdis

          All right, I’ll have a go. Safer how, exactly? Seriously. People keep trotting out that tired old line, but don’t have any concrete ideas on how to go about it.

          Vaccines are already very safe. They are not 100% safe, but nothing is 100% safe. They have a long record of safety testing and will even be proactive in asking you if you are allergic to certain things or if you have ever had an adverse reaction to a vaccine. When I got my Hep B series, I had to stay in the doctor’s office being monitored for a half hour after the first shot in case I had a reaction.

          If you do have an adverse reaction, then you can get a medical exemption waiver, due to your adverse reaction. Mind you, this generally includes things like severe allergic reactions, not “The injection site was sore, I ran a low-grade fever for a day or so and I didn’t feel very well” or “I got a headache and felt achy for a day or so”.

          So then, what are your ideas on how to make vaccines 100% safe? It’s a cop-out if you claim it is “someone else’s problem to figure out, you know, those Big Pharma Scientists whose job it is”. Present a possible solution or you are just bitching to be bitching.

          • Barzini

            I’d start with taking aluminium out

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why?

            It’s not causing any problems, and it has benefit to have it there. So why take it out?

          • Barzini

            Well that’s why freedom and choice are great things

            You are free to inject yourself and your family with aluminium (and ethyl mercury in some cases) and I’m free not to

            Awesome, enjoy the ride

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Oh please. Why don’t you answer my question?

            YOU said you’d take out aluminum. I asked you why. It’s a simple question. You must have some reason why you think aluminum should be taken out, besides “freedom.”

            Of course, it means putting your ignorance on display.

          • corblimeybot

            He’s a genius who’s about to rock the entire world of medicine with questions that no one has ever, ever heard of. He is smarter than the thousands of people who have devoted their careers to creating safe and effective vaccinations. It’s this guy right here. We’ve all been waiting for this legendary hero, and finally he arrives.

          • Heidi

            Well, to be fair he’s going to have to share his legendary hero status with Brooke, Laura J and Diet Dee. He and Diet Dee can head the Cabinet of Googling Study Abstracts that Don’t Say What I Think They Do or Were Rejected or Withdrawn by Any Reputable Scientific Journal.

          • rosewater1

            I’m honestly curious…were you vaccinated as a child?

          • Barzini

            It’s a neurotoxin…..

            Here’s an abstract from a PubMed paper

            “Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

            You can also search ‘aluminium’ and ‘Alzheimers’ in Pubmed – lots of hits

            Or more specifically, you can go to:

            Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, Volume 29, Number 2 / 2012, pages 255-273

            Injecting aluminium, no thank you

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            And sodium is spectacularly explosive. Does that mean you don’t use table salt?

          • Barzini

            You’re making flippant comments whilst serious researchers are investigating the strong possibility of a link between alzheimers and aluminium

            Try searching for ‘alzheimers’ and ‘aluminium’ on Pubmed – lots of hits
            or
            Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, Volume 29, Number 2 / 2012, pages 255-273

            Fell free to inject yourself and your family with aluminium – I’ll wait until we know more

          • Charybdis

            The amount injected is far below the toxic level. You will absorb more aluminum from eating and drinking than you will from getting vaccines.

            The amount of aluminum in the vaccines a baby gets in it’s first year is 4.225 mg, total. A baby will ingest 7-ish mg of aluminum if it is EBF, ~38 mg if EFF and ~117 mg if it is eating soy formula in the first six months of life. So for one year, it is 14 mg Al if EBF, 76 mg Al if EFF, and 234 mg Al if using soy formula as opposed to 4.225 mg in all the required vaccines.

            4.225 mg is lower than all of those “Aluminum in baby’s food” levels that people AREN’T concerned about.

          • Barzini

            There’s huge difference between eating a substance and injecting it as an adjuvant designed to stimulate the immune system

            The fact that researchers are also working on a hypothesis that aluminium causes alzheimers is also of concern

            I’m going to wait, more work obviously needs to be done…

            You go ahead and inject your family with aluminium though

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            There’s huge difference between eating a substance and injecting it as an adjuvant designed to stimulate the immune system

            But the paper you keep citing over and over doesn’t make that distinction, so this is nothing more than special pleading.

            Yes, they are different. That doesn’t mean that one is necessarily better or worse.

          • Charybdis

            The problem is in the absorption and elimination of aluminum. 4.225 mg of aluminum in the required vaccines in the first year of a baby’s life is not “super absorbed” or otherwise more potentially harmful than the aluminum that is consumed in food and drink or is present in antacids, cosmetics, etc.

          • Barzini

            When you eat aluminium, on average 99.7% is eliminated as waste – none of it passes the blood brain barrier

            When you inject aluminium, 100% stays in the body (in rabbits 6-22% comes out over 28 days, but immediately it all stays in) – the forced immune response results in the aluminium crossing the blood brain barrier

            Eating and injecting isn’t the same

          • Nick Sanders

            Quick question: is aluminum a cause or a consequence of Alzheimer’s?

          • Barzini

            No idea, I do know it’s a neurotoxin and crosses the BBB when injected as a vaccine

          • Nick Sanders

            You still haven’t sourced that claim about the blood-brain barrier.

          • Barzini

            I got it from a youtube presentation by doctor Suzanne Humphries – I’m not sure where she got it from (I assume she didn’t make it up)

            You need to fast forward to 48:05

            Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/PWP6e2CYPo8

            You need to fast forward to 48:05

            Here is another link related to what we are talking about: http://vaccinepapers.org/debunking-aluminum-adjuvant-part-1/

          • Nick Sanders

            Humphries is a nephrologist. Asking her about the blood-brain barrier is like asking a dermatologist to set a broken bone for you. Or asking a cardiologist for advice on chemotherapy.

          • Barzini

            What is it about the presentation you disagree with?

            Or is it just who it’s by that concerns you?

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, there’s the fact that it’s 110 minutes long, and the first lie comes out at around the 1 minute mark. That’s a pretty bad sign right there. And she follows it up by stating two very mistaken beliefs in less than 30 seconds.

          • Charybdis

            You know what they say about assuming….

          • Barzini

            I would genuinely like to know the truth on this

          • Heidi

            Have you researched the people who did this research, Shaw and Tomljenovic? Looks like they used cell lines to do their “research” which according to people who know a lot more than me about such stuff, isn’t going to have the same reaction the real human body does. Bodies flush out toxins effectively, cells in a culture don’t. They also used a concentration much higher than what the aluminum concentration would be after injection, and they cultured blood cells, not muscle cells where real injections are given.

          • Barzini

            Inject away then

            My concerns have not been taken away by your six line Disqus reply

          • Heidi

            So the answer is no, you haven’t, and you can’t be bothered to.

          • Barzini

            There are many many papers investigating the link between aluminium and alzheimers

            Aluminium is a proven neurotoxin – I’m not going to start injecting it because of your reply above

            I don’t even know who you are

          • Heidi

            I’m not asking you to inject anything. I don’t care if you know who I am. I have something to tell you: you are on the internet in a public blog and I can see what you type! I can then respond. That’s just how it works. You could merrily go about your non-vaccinating ways and I would never know, but you came here for some reason.

          • Barzini

            Cool, keep on injecting that aluminium into yourself and loved ones

            I’m not going to, not because I’m a Chemtrail believing loon – but because I’m a concerned parent who thinks injecting aluminium (especially into a baby) is insane

            Let’s leave it there, good luck

          • rosewater1

            And we don’t know who you are!!! What’s your point?

            You surely didn’t think you’d come here, say your say, and we’d all agree with you?

            Anyone who looks in ONE discussion here can tell what sort of reception they may get when they post.

            If you don’t WANT people to debate your choices, challenge your assertions, etc. then why are you here?

          • Barzini

            fair point, I agree

          • Nick Sanders
          • Nick Sanders
          • Charybdis

            What adjuvant would you use in it’s place? Because unless you are going to use a less safe vaccine (one with the entire bacteria/virus instead of a small part of the germ) you need an adjuvant to help boost the body’s immune response so that it will recognize the virus/bacteria.

            Plus, not all vaccines contain an aluminum adjuvant.

          • Barzini

            I’m not going to inject myself with aluminium full stop

            If we come up with a safer option, I’ll certainly look into it – there’s a lot of research in this area, I look forward to a time when we know more

          • Charybdis

            Again, unless you are offering a potential solution, you are just bitching to be bitching and not actually helping to solve the perceived problem.

            What would you like to see used as a safe, effective adjuvant to replace aluminum in vaccines?

          • Barzini

            No idea

            Doesn’t mean I’m going to start injecting aluminium

            If so one comes up with an alternative, I’ll look into it

          • Charybdis

            You make it sound like they pump you full of liquid aluminum like the way they pumped Wolverine full of liquid adamantium to reinforce his skeleton.

            So it is “someone else’s job/responsibility” to reformulate vaccines that have already been proven safe and effective for decades? You, of course, are TERRIBLY CONCERNED about the amount of aluminum in current vaccines, but aren’t concerned enough to try and find an alternative, or even suggest a place to start?

            Right.

          • Barzini

            You want me to design a new adjuvant for vaccines – seriously?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            When you eat aluminium, 99.7% is eliminated as waste – the o.3% that stays doesn’t cross the blood brain barrier

            When you inject aluminium in a vaccination, 100% stays (6-22% is very gradually eliminated over 28 days in rabbits, but it all stays at first) and it crosses the blood brain barrier

            There are serious researchers investigating this – keep the pics and memes for facebook

          • Nick Sanders

            Sources, please.

          • Charybdis

            People aren’t rabbits.

          • Barzini

            ban all animal experimentation?

          • Charybdis

            Nope.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            So you’re satisfied?

            I’ll await the development of the research into the link between aluminium and alzheimers

            But you go ahead

          • Nick Sanders
    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Ahh, more anti-vaxxer “logic” like this:

      • Barzini

        Here’s an abstract from a PubMed paper
        Abstract from Pubmed

        “Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

        You can also search ‘aluminium’ and ‘Alzheimers’ in Pubmed – lots of hits

        Or more specifically, you can go to:

        Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, Volume 29, Number 2 / 2012, pages 255-273

        Injecting aluminium, no thank you

        • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            FDA – you serious?

          • Nick Sanders

            Knee-jerk FDA rejection – are you?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I notice you ignored the “pubmed” references that Nick posted below that said the same thing. Let me quote from one of them

            Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum modeled using the regulatory MRL. We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that contain aluminum adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the benefits of using vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any theoretical concerns.

            If you are in love with “pubmed” then that addresses your concern.

          • Barzini

            Just to be safe, I won’t be injecting myself with neurotoxins just yet

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why? As this paper describes, “the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum”

            And that is for INFANTS, much less for adults. Did you know there is currently more than 30 mg of aluminum in your body? Adding a couple of mgs in a vaccine is not going to affect anything (which you can understand if you know anything about chemical equilibrium)

          • Roadstergal

            The Great Barzini himself cited a paper in this thread showing that the aluminum burden of vaccination is negligible for _pre-term_ infants.

          • Barzini

            Eating and injecting aluminium is completely different

            When you inject it as a vaccine it crosses the blood brain barrier for a start

          • Roadstergal

            You have stated this baseless assertion many times now. Give a citation, or even basic biological plausibility, because it’s lacking that right now.

          • swbarnes2

            Okay, then you should have no problem sequestering your potentially infectious self away from the world. Because the rest of use have a right to be safe too.

          • Barzini

            I live in Switzerland – no one cares here, schools don’t even think of asking, everyone respects one’s right to decide

            Very healthy country Switzerland by the way

          • swbarnes2

            “Switzerland suffered a three-year measles epidemic which finished in summer last year, in which there were more than 4,400 cases, with 339 hospitalisations and one death. ”

            http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/measles-is-still-a-sore-spot-for-the-swiss/8736280

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3929760/

            “In Switzerland, clusters of pertussis must be reported to the government, and current incidence of pertussis is both high (2012: 94/100’000) and increasing”

            So not so healthy after all.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, it’s got one of the lowest measles vaccination rates in Europe, that’s why

            I’m not against vaccination, I just want safe vaccination – which for me means no aluminium for a start

            Yes I would rather take the measles risk than the aluminium one

          • Roadstergal

            It has one of the lowest measles vaccination rates in Europe – and yet one of the higher rates of Alzheimer’s Disease, above the overall average for Europe:
            http://www.alzheimer-europe.org/Policy-in-Practice2/Country-comparisons/2013-The-prevalence-of-dementia-in-Europe

            Explain that one, since by your logic, it should have far less AD as a tradeoff for all of the preventable suffering and death due to measles.

          • Charybdis

            That should definitely NOT be happening in Barzini’s world because ALUMINUM!!!!

            If the Swiss are not OD’ing on aluminum in the vaccines because they have the lowest measles vaccination rate in Europe, then how are all those people developing Alzheimer’s?

          • Sonja Henie

            No aluminum in measles vaccine, Barz!
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/adjuvants.html

          • Roadstergal

            Switzerland – the place that gave California one of our recent measles outbreaks. Patient 0 caught it on a trip over there.

            ETA citation:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308208

          • swbarnes2

            Right, a thousand babies can be hospitalized, but what matters is that Barzini keeps himself pure. There will always be something in a vaccine in an infinitesimal amount that will make him sacrifice any number of babies to avoid it.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, Switzerland has one of the lowest measles vaccination rates in Europe, so I guess it’s to be expected

            I’m not against vaccination, I want safer vaccinations

          • Roadstergal

            Define ‘safer.’ And don’t go back to your factless bleating about aluminum and AD, because you manage to keep nicely high rates of AD in der Schweiz despite all of the measles.

          • Barzini

            Safer as in less dangerous

          • Roadstergal

            It’s not dangerous by any definition of the word that reasonable people use. Trace amounts of materials that even the body of a pre-term infant doesn’t notice, lots of downstream positive effects – humanitarian and economic. Hey, we’re done!

            Stop sending measles over here, BTW. That’s definitely very dangerous by any definition of the word.

          • Barzini

            These guys disagree

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Roadstergal

            Dear sir or madam.

            For the umpteenth time.

            I can’t watch YouTube videos at work, and one of the reasons for that is that YouTube videos are not how science is done.

          • Barzini

            Truly bizarre – you are attacking a medium

            Is the internet OK? Or does it have to be leather bound books?

          • Roadstergal

            Any human with a working brain should have been able to figure out by now that after a: multiple requests for PubMed or direct links to papers and b: multiple uses of PubMed and direct links to papers ourselves, that PubMed and papers are generally considered a productive opening to discuss science.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s like they’ve never heard of workplaces filtering web usage.

          • Who?

            But are you in favour of less dangerous measles?

          • Barzini

            yes, that would be nice

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, Jenny McCarthy!

          • Botulin Toxin and all….

          • Roadstergal

            So ‘very healthy’ means susceptible to measles – and with ~1.73% of the population having Alzheimer’s Disease according to Alzheimer Europe, which is about the rate in the US (1.6%, by my back-of-the-envelope jotting).

          • Who?

            ‘Very wealthy country, Switzerland…’

            Fixed it for you. Wealth goes a long way to helping with health. Not so much for vpds, but for all that background health you crow about, being wealthy is very useful.

          • Barzini

            exactly, it’s almost like there’s a link between poverty and illness

          • Sonja Henie

            Plenty of measles in Europe. “An airplane ride away”.

    • rosewater1

      I’ve never quite understood this logic.

      There are a great many things that we eat & drink, activities that we do that COULD cause life changing harm. But yet the vast majority of people still engage in them.

      If you follow this logic out to its logical conclusion, what sort of life will you live? What will you do?

      Many people alive now-myself included-have no idea how good we have it. We are incredibly privileged to live the lives we do and to have the scientific/technologic/medical advances that we take for granted.

      Ever take a walk in an old graveyard? It’s an education. All those graves where the birth and death years are so tragically close. SO many of those people would have given anything for vaccines to save themselves and their loved ones.

      And yet so many thumb their noses at medicine. I don’t understand it.

      • Barzini

        I simply wouldn’t equate doing a potentially dangerous activity like driving with injecting aluminium (a proven neurotoxin) into a baby

        Here’s an abstract from a PubMed paper

        “Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

        You can also search ‘aluminium’ and ‘Alzheimers’ in Pubmed – lots of hits

        Or more specifically, you can go to:

        Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, Volume 29, Number 2 / 2012, pages 255-273

        Injecting aluminium, no thank you

        • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            This paper claims that about half the aluminium is eliminated within 24 hours – completely untrue in the case of vaccination

            It also crosses the blood brain barrier – unlike when eating

            When eating, only 0.3% stays in the body, none of which crosses the BBB

          • Nick Sanders

            The link sources multiple published studies, you source, well, you haven’t sourced any of those claims yet.

          • Barzini

            Rabbit studies show almost all of AL is retained 28 days after IM injection (Flaren 1997 PMID 9302736)

            Human babies did not excrete AL at all (Movsas 2013 PMID 23856981)

          • Roadstergal

            Dude, can you even read? The paper didn’t say babies don’t excrete Al. It said there was no significant CHANGE in Al in serum or urine after vaccination in 15 pre-term infants.

            The short version of that paper was ‘even in preterm infants, the Al bolus in vaccination is too minor to worry about.’

            BTW, all of those infants received breast milk. Guess what’s a very common element found in breastmilk?

            9302736 is a standard PK paper. They labeled the Al in the vaccine because it would have otherwise been lost in the far greater background of environmental Al, which they even call out in the Discussion.

            You Science very poorly.

          • Barzini

            the aluminium in breast milk isn’t injected and doesn’t cross the Blood Brain Barrier

          • swbarnes2

            Umm, you know that people apply breastmilk to eyes to clear up clogged ducts, right? Are you going to be consistent and argue that that’s an unacceptable toxin exposure?

          • Barzini

            no, I’m just not going to inject myself with aluminium

          • Roadstergal

            You’re a one-trick pony. “Inject with aluminum! Inject with aluminum!” Despite all the evidence from actual scientists that this is not an issue. If you’re so thoroughly immunized (with copious adjuvant) against reality, at lest be _entertaining_.

          • Barzini

            Seeing as it’s a neurotoxin – yeah, I do kind of feel the need to keep saying it

            Is this guy an actual scientist?

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Roadstergal

            I dunno, does he/she have any papers I can look at to make that determination? I can’t watch YouTube vids at work, but I can read papers. (Also, too, YouTube is not the place for science. I have never cited a YouTube video in a publication.)

          • Nick Sanders

            You should do your best to find a way to work a TMBG video into something at some point.

          • Roadstergal

            The British Journal of Phamacology has no sense of humor. (Humour?)

          • Barzini

            I agree Youtube isn’t the best way to do this – but it’s a good introduction

            I don’t get the impression she’s a crazed loon, but that’s what others here seem to think

            I think she is affiliated with this site: http://vaccinepapers.org/debunking-aluminum-adjuvant-part-1/

            There’s quite a bit of info there which I’m pretty sure she fully supports

          • Roadstergal

            Actual papers, please. Even just one. Give us a bone.

          • Charybdis

            Aww, c’mon Roadstergal! The link he posted has the word “papers” in the title!

          • Barzini

            Of hers? No idea…..

            I think that site I gave you a link to sums up her thinking

            I don’t even care about this woman or know who she is, it’s more what she says in this presentation that I was interested in hearing a critique of – I understand you don’t have time for that

          • Roadstergal

            So you have no idea of any of the science around your assertions.

            And you won’t take the time to learn the science.

            And you won’t trust people who have taken the time to learn the science, do research, and publish.

            Hell of a way to run a railroad.

          • Barzini

            That’s why I came here, provided some links and asked what you think

            I am literally doing what you claim I’m not doing, I’m asking what you think in order to improve my understanding

            So far I’ve been told that this woman is ‘human waste’ a ‘loon’ and that every she says is ‘complete garbage’

            I could of got that from facebook

          • Roadstergal

            You have one YouTube video and a self-made web page as your sources for believing in this woman in the first place. You don’t see a problem with that?

          • Barzini

            Absolutely, that’s why I was hoping someone would be able to tear her apart and I would learn something

            I’m concerned about the safety of injecting aluminium and mercury, I’m going to stay that way for just now

          • Roadstergal

            Fortunately, you aren’t doing any injecting when your kids are vaccinated. It’s done by a HCP, who uses a formula that has been heavily studied both pre- and post-licensure and is subject to GMP manufacturing rules. It’s one of the safest things you can put in your body. Far safer than any ‘supplement’.

          • Nick Sanders

            I remember seeing someone doing the math and demonstrating it was safer than food, at least when comparing numbers of major vaccine reactions to major food allergy attacks on a incidences per exposures basis. I really wish I still had the link to that, it was interesting stuff.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m sure it’s safer when it comes to minor reactions, too. Some friends of mine were talking about going out to eat a few weeks ago, and getting so sick from the food that most of them were up all night barfing. Can you imagine if that were a vaccine AE? There’d be hell to pay.

          • Nick Sanders

            You also left out about a dozen, give or take, published studies on the safety of aluminum.

          • swbarnes2

            But you think that putting aluminum in a baby’s eyes is fine? Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

          • Barzini

            I had a tuna sandwich yesterday – and yet I don’t want to inject babies with mercury – wow go figure

            When eat apples I eat the pips, and yet I would never inject myself with cyanide either – crazy eh

          • swbarnes2

            But applying a chemical to the eye is not at all the same as eating it. Can you just say if you think it’s okay to put any amount of mercury, aluminium, or cyanide into a baby’s eyes? Sine you are so fond of yes-no questions, this should be a cinch.

          • corblimeybot

            The mercury in tuna is a lot worse for you than the tiny amount of mercury in the flu shot. Not just by dose (which is much greater), but by the type of mercury.

          • Barzini

            Sure it is

          • MaineJen

            …you do realize you just proved our point for us, don’t you?

          • Roadstergal

            …he says with zero evidence whatsoever.

            The papers you cite refute your own stance.

          • Charybdis

            Vaccines aren’t injected into the bloodstream.

          • Barzini
          • Charybdis

            Vaccines are NOT. Injected. Into. The. Bloodstream. Ever. No IV is used, nor is a heplock. Nobody is mainlining vaccines. They are injected into muscles, usually in the hip, butt or arm, and sometimes the thigh.

            IM does not equal IV or even SubQ.

          • Sonja Henie
          • Sonja Henie

            The body treats any aluminum that gets into the bloodstream, including via the digestive tract, the same way.

          • Barzini

            Not true……

            Fast forward to 48:05 in this video for a brief overview

            https://youtu.be/PWP6e2CYPo8

          • Sonja Henie

            Humphries is a quack. Read this if you dare, it will challenge your faith in your Goddess Suzanne: https://vaxplanations.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/239/

          • Barzini

            What did you think of her presentation, what parts were bullshit?

            I don’t care about ad hominen stuff

          • Nick Sanders

            Pointing out that she believes in unscientific nonsense is not an ad hominem.

          • Sonja Henie

            Humphries doesn’t know what she’s talking about! Her “evidence” goes against all known scientific evidence.

          • Those are claims.

            What we asked for was *evidence*.

          • Barzini

            Nope

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes. The body doesn’t know if it was injected or ingested, once it gets into the bloodstream.

          • Barzini

            These guys disagree

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Sonja Henie

            Youtube? Are you kidding. I started it before I knew it was youtube, and to even waste almost three minutes of my life watching something from an anti-vaxer “researcher” I have to watch a commercial about “sleep number beds”? No thanks.

          • Barzini

            Youtube is a medium by which information is spread, it’s a medium

            Usually people attack the person, you are actually attacking the medium

            What about the internet? Is that OK? Or does it have to be a leather bound book?

            Here’s another Youtube video (oh the horror): https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s a medium without peer review. Or quality control of any kind beyond profanity and copyright filters.

          • Barzini

            You only read articles that have been peer reviewed? and yet here you are, under a non-peer reviewed article

          • Roadstergal

            …citing peer-reviewed literature, copiously.

          • Nick Sanders

            I never said I only read peer-reviewed articles. But when a peer reviewed publication and one without any sort of quality assurance whatsoever disagree, I trust the peer-reviewed one.

          • Barzini

            The guy has something to say, why not listen for a few minutes and tell me what’s so crazy about it?

          • Charybdis

            Allow me to explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

            In our neck of the woods, the Drs. Sears are a multi-generational peddlers of the woo and are well-known to be sellers of medical exemption/waiver forms to those who are not their patients. They are also big proponents of NCB, EBF, AP, and co-sleeping/bedsharing.

            Quacks, misguided and misinformed.

          • Charybdis

            Everybody has something to say, even the crazy homeless guy who stands on the corner of the intersection up the street and yells all day about the little man inside his brain who controls his thoughts and actions. Oh, and the robot overlords this little guy works for and reports to. And that that old VW over there is actually a Transformer because he saw it shift yesterday.

            What’s so crazy about that?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I still need to make my YouTube video that says, “Everything in the video the other person posted is bullshit.”

          • Roadstergal

            If you make it, we will cite it frequently.

          • Roadstergal

            You’re quite bad at building straw men. We’ve said many times that peer-reviewed research online is just fine and dandy, and are even using that ourselves. One article to read, that’s all we’ve asked, and you’re spending your time doing a little Swiss version of burning man.

          • Sonja Henie

            It needs to be a peer-reviewed study that’s been accepted as accurate by scientific consensus.

          • Barzini

            You are unwilling to listen to something that hasn’t been peer reviewed?

            What? Seriously? This is crazy……

            I’m genuinely interested in your opinion, tell me why he’s a loon

            You have no chance of alleviating the fears of concerned parents if this is your approach

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sonja Henie

            Don’t tell me how to do my job. Who is this loon? I probably know about him.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s Bob Sears.

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, God! I’m not being sacrilegious, I’m calling on Him for help! Y’know, Barzini, we all know Dr. Sears. He’s a quack.

          • Barzini

            Who cares who he is, it’s what he says that’s important

          • demodocus

            Quack is not the same as jerk. By definition, people should take anything a quack says with a huge grain of salt.

          • Charybdis

            I don’t think even Lot’s wife would give enough salt for this job.

          • Sonja Henie

            WEll, he could be an actor reading a script written by an English major. But OK, it’s Sears. Here’s a little bit to read about HIM: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/08/dr-bob-sears-profiled-a-cynical-vaccine-averse-pediatrician-who-accepts-no-blame-for-the-results-of-his-antivaccine-message/

          • Barzini

            more ad hominem

          • Nick Sanders

            You don’t seem to understand what an ad hominem is. It does not mean “any criticism whatsover of the arguer’s character”. It means when such is done irrelevantly. Pointing out that a person making medical claims is a known liar and swindler is not an ad hominem. If we were to claim he were a tax dodger, or a devil worshiper, or a wife beater and therefore we should not listen to his medical claims, that would be an ad hominem.

          • Barzini

            If an anti vaxer refused to engage with Dr. Paul Offit or address any of his points and instead endlessly attacked his character and the fact he made millions from a vaccine patent – I would call that unfair play

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sonja Henie

            You beat me to it. How’s this, Barz? He’s a snake oil salesman (he sells supplements) and a charlatan!

          • Sonja Henie

            He’s a public figure. And a jag!

          • Barzini

            more ad hominem, lots of it around here

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, stick it!

          • Who?

            And that’s the money shot, ladies and gentlemen.

            So long as the message is what Barzini wants to hear, so long as it soothes his anxieties and supports his view of himself as very special, very wise, and therefore very very safe in a wild and dangerous world, he’ll take it.

          • Barzini

            I mean it his words which should be engaged with

            By all means criticize his words

          • Who?

            People have been telling you why his words are wrong, but you don’t like what they say.

          • Azuran

            Did you use Wikipedia for your school project too?

        • Roadstergal

          Ooh, an abstract. Here’s a whole paper:
          http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlepdf/2004/em/b314329p

          “The levels of aluminium in the brains of patients with renal failure are much higher, but considerable controversy exists concerning the presence or absence of elevated levels of aluminium in AD patients. This controversy has been detailed by Bjertness et al.,96 who undertook a further study designed to avoid many of the methodological deficiencie in previous studies. These authors reported aluminium levels in the brains (plus liver and femoral heads) of 92 confirmed AD patients and controls. Using well-controlled GF-AAS analyses they reported the following aluminium levels in normal and AD patients: brain frontal cortex (1.8 ¡ 0.7 vs. 1.7 ¡ 0.7 mg g21 dry weight); brain temporal cortex (1.4 ¡ 0.3 vs. 1.5 ¡ 0.5 mg g21 dry weight); liver (2.0 ¡ 1.3 vs. 2.0 ¡ 1.2 mg g21 dry weight); head of femur (2.4 ¡ 1.6 vs. 2.2 ¡ 1.0 mg g21 ash weight). The authors conclude that there is no elevation of bulk aluminium in either the brain or the body of AD patients. Neither was a correlation found between bulk aluminium concentrations and the number of the senile plaques and neurofibrillary tangles that are characteristic of the disease. Yokel et al.64 suggest that brain aluminium is inconsistently raised during Alzheimer’s disease. As a result of these studies and others it is now generally accepted that there is no causal link between aluminium and AD.108–109”

          • Barzini
          • Sonja Henie

            If you think that’s compelling, you’re hopeless.

          • Barzini

            Maybe – I don’t think calling concerned parents ‘hopeless’ is the way forward though

          • Sonja Henie

            You’re not talking as a concerned parent. You’re talking as a vaccine authority.

          • Barzini

            I’ve said the exact words ‘I’m no expert’ many times here

            I’m, very very far from being an expert on this topic, I’ve never claimed otherwise

            Still not gonna inject myself with aluminium

          • swbarnes2

            This “I’m no expert” is a humblebrag that everyone here sees through. You are claiming to understand the relative risks of vaccination better than the world consensus of doctors and scientists.

            You are “no expert”; but your vanity will not allow you to speak the truth, that your understanding of science is that of an ignorant child. Every time you copy-paste your links, you prove that you don’t even understand your own citations! It’s embarrassing for you, really. But your ego will not allow you to let go of the delusion that you know what you are talking about. You say you want to know more? Delusion. Your vanity and ego won’t allow it. You are going to flounce out of here still believing every single bit of shit you believed when you started, despite multiple people giving you multiple explanations and citations proving that you believe horseshit.

          • Azuran

            Basically, you are saying: I know nothing about this, but aluminum is scary to my uneducated mind. So I’m going to avoid it because I know nothing about science.
            Sounds about right.

          • Nick Sanders

            Remember, he’s Just Asking Questions!

          • Charybdis

            How about willfully ignorant?

          • Mike Stevens

            You are not a concerned parent.
            You are a concern troll.

    • swbarnes2

      Sigh. If you infect a child with measles, that could cause severe life changing harm, but you just don’t care about that, do you? Your purity, and your vanity are more important.

      • Barzini

        No, my not injecting myself with aluminium is what’s more important

        • swbarnes2

          But the small chance of killing a child is not worth considering? Yup, nothing here but vanity.

          • Barzini

            as soon as you come up with a way of me preventing VPD without injecting neurotoxins into babies I’ll be on your side

          • Roadstergal

            We have. Vaccines. There is nothing even vaguely neurotoxic at the dose and route of administration used.

            That’s the ‘answer to your question.’ It’s not the fault of reality that you don’t like it.

          • Barzini

            Best tell those researchers working on the hypothesis that aluminium is linked to alzheimers – they are wasting their time, if only they had spoken to Roadstergal first

          • Roadstergal

            I posted a link to a paper with some of the research and links to more of it showing contrary evidence to the aluminum->AD link, and some of the issues with the assays that earlier research that supported that hypothesis used. Did you read it? Did you even read the straightforward excerpt I posted?

            You keep talking about ‘questions,’ but you have not answered mine. If the aluminum in vaccines causes Alzheimer’s disease, why is the rate of AD so high in your country – higher than the European average – where vaccination is so low – lower than the European average?

          • Barzini

            Well there seems to be differing opinions out there, I don’t think that anyone who decides to hold off from vaccinating aluminium can be considered a ‘loon’ – wrong perhaps, but not a loon

            My instincts tell me to hold off, learn more, and see what developments occur – hardly an insane approach

          • Mike Stevens

            Why do you drive a car, Barzini?

          • Who?

            I reckon it’s a control freak thing. He drives because it is super-convenient-and how else will he get around to all the speshul shops that sell the natcheral things that keep everyone healthy and illness free?

            But here’s the catch. He can’t imagine either causing an accident himself, or not being able to avoid one if a dangerous situation arose. Therefore, in Barzini’s world, driving is very safe, because he controls it.

            If he chooses to allow his children to be vaccinated, he loses control. What if something bad happens then? If he chooses to not allow them to be vaccinated, in his mind that is doing nothing. And if he does nothing and something bad happens, then that can’t be his fault, right?

            His ‘logic’ (ahem) is well off, but we know that already.

            Add the bonus of all the shiny martyr badges when the kids do get sick, and you have all you need for a red-hot anti vaxxer. With a healthy dose of faux victimhood thrown in, like a dodgy set of steak knives with a crappy online kitchen appliance.

            If only they weren’t so entirely predictable.

          • Enjoy freeloading your immunity from the rest of responsible society. Science doesn’t give a flying F about your “instincts.”

          • Barzini

            “Much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. … science has taken a turn towards darkness.”
            Editor in chief of the Lancet; Dr Richard Horton.

            “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines.”
            Former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine; Marcia Angell.

            Does science give a fuck about these people’s instincts?

          • Nope. And you’re taking those quotes out of context. When science is wrong, it is self-correcting. Just look at Wakefraud. If a claim is made, and can’t be reproduced, it will not enter into the scientific consensus. Negative data is important problem is that you are anti-science without the justification to back your feelings. That’s probably not a good place to be, but your call.

          • Nick Sanders

            None of the people you’ve linked to are even remotely involved in such research. Nor are, to my knowledge, the actual researches suggesting that vaccination is part of the problem let alone that it should be avoided.

          • Barzini

            Lots of hits on pubmed – it would take a long time to go through them all

            Safe to say, in my opinion, it’s not a crazy position to want to know more

          • Nick Sanders

            Lots of hits, fine, but what do those hits say?

          • Barzini

            Here’s a Youtube version: only a few minutes, hope you’ll go against your principles juts this once

            https://youtu.be/_b6tqVSdotE

          • Nick Sanders

            No, I asked what the PubMed hits say, not what Bob “Buy my book!” Sears said.

          • Barzini

            Better than Dr. Paul (buy my vaccine) Offit

          • Nick Sanders

            You may have noticed, but I haven’t sourced a single thing from Offit. Not because I have anything against him, but because I have more than one note I can sing.

          • Sonja Henie

            Offit does not hold the patent on the rotateq vaccine.

          • Daleth

            Merck holds the patent (employers basically always own the patents on inventions created by their employees), but it so happens that Merck, being a German company, abides worldwide by German law with regard to employee inventions. And German law, unlike US law, requires companies to compensate employees above and beyond their salaries for inventions they make that are expected to benefit the company.

            That being said, German companies usually pay a lump sum to each employee-inventor before the invention goes on the market, as opposed to paying them an ongoing royalty for each sale after it goes on the market. Assuming that’s the case with Offit, which it probably is (employers have every reason in the world to prefer lump sums over royalties, and frankly employees usually do too), then he’s already been paid for that invention–he was probably paid way back when the patent was filed, or around that time–and so he does not profit from the continued use of the vaccine.

            That’s in sharp contrast to Dr. Sears, who does profit from every single sale of any of his books; in fact, his heirs will continue profiting from every single sale of a Dr. Sears book until SEVENTY YEARS after his death. (See US and EU copyright law for further details.)

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, that’s pretty much what I’ve read about Offit.

          • Compounds aren’t elements.

            Next?

          • swbarnes2

            Vanity. We know the aluminium doses in vaccines are extremely tiny, far smaller than what a baby is naturally exposed to, and we know that getting it by vaccine is not different enough from any other route of exposure to matter. You don’t want to know “more” about any of that. You want to just SAY that you want to know more, while refusing to accept one tiny fact that anyone has given you.

            The proof that you don’t want to know more is that you can’t even make yourself learn enough to summarize the contents of your videos. You’ve refused to stand behind one single claim in them, I don’t even think you know what they say, and I don’t think you even care. what they say. They are just props for your vanity.

          • Barzini

            You think all anti-vaxers are like that? Seriously?

            I think you want to believe anti-vaxers are like that – I guarantee you that’s not the case

          • Nick Sanders

            Where did swbarnes say “all”? They quite clearly said “you”.

          • swbarnes2

            No one believes that. Your vanity will win out, there will always be some reason why you have to defy the people who actually know what they are talking about so you can feel superior. There will always be someone on youtube telling you that learning facts the hard way is for suckers, that you can learn better than all the experts by watching just the right YouTube videos. There will always be some reason why a simple tiny effort that promotes the general welfare is too great a burden for a special snowflake like you to bear.

          • Barzini

            I know a lot of anti-vaxers here in Switzerland – all decent people, I’m probably biased, but hand on heart I’d say they are above average in intelligence and empathy

            Your preconceptions are not only wrong but counterproductive – you are simply fueling the divide and the hate

          • swbarnes2

            But my way saves the lives of children. Your way leads to pertussis and measles, and child death. And like I say, your vanity is fine with that. There probably isn’t any amount of child death in your country that would get you to reconsider.

          • Barzini

            Does my way lead to scarlet fever?

          • demodocus

            There is no vaccine for scarlet fever, and are you saying my parents were poor parents for letting me catch it and loose all the hearing in one ear?

          • Barzini

            Why has the incidence of scarlet fever plummeted then?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because the bacteria that causes it responds extremely well to antibiotics.

          • Charybdis

            Scarlet fever is caused by a streptococcus infection. Bacteria. Most VPD’s are viral.

            The incidence of scarlet fever has plummeted because we have developed antibiotics and will use them at the beginning of a strep throat infection. This stops the bacteria from reproducing, this stops the infective process and you recover. Scarlet fever results from an untreated or undertreated strep infection,

          • Barzini

            Thanks, I learned something

          • If you didn’t know this 6 days or so ago….do you *really* think you are qualified to overturn decades-long global scientific and medical consensus?

          • Specifically, scarlet fever is a complication of toxin a positive strep throat.

          • Charybdis

            I was keeping it simple because complex doesn’t seem to compute.

          • Mike Stevens

            You are really stupid, aren’t you?
            Why is scarlet fever increasing in the Uk?

          • Antibiotics.

            Next question?

          • Mike Stevens

            That would be why there are regular outbreaks of measles in Switzerland too.
            Yes, you and all your “decent” friends can celebrate while your actions cause children to suffer brain damage and death.
            Good for you! (GFY)

          • Sonja Henie

            I really like that “Good for you” response! Mind if I steal it?

          • Mike Stevens

            my pleasure!

          • Kq

            Ooooh, all the “decent people”! Big talk for someone who discards science because someone somewhere used the phrase “human waste”

          • Charybdis

            How do you feel about Botox and ergotamines?

          • Barzini

            No one is trying to inject them into my body, I’m neutral on those ones

          • Charybdis

            They are both treatments for migraines and are injected although I think there is an ergotamine nasal spray.
            Botulinum toxin (Botox) and Ergot are WAY, WAY more dangerous than aluminum. Or to use your buzzwords, they are neurotoxins. Although I think ergot is more a mycotoxin…..

          • Who?

            Oh yes but if Barzini needed those that would be different, because that would fix his pain right now. Just like I’m sure he drives, which is far riskier than being vaccinated, because it is soooo convenient.

            In his world view, it’s only the kid that gets sick, so what does he care. Added bonus, he can carry on with his ‘caring parent’ schtick by martyring himself to the care of the child.

          • Barzini

            Well I’ll try and avoid injecting them into myself also – thanks for the warning

          • Mike Stevens

            Who is trying to inject you, Barzini? And with which vaccines?

          • Dose matters.

          • We have. Vaccines.

            Toxic depends on dose.

          • JGC

            Barzini, your evidence that any of the ingredients found in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination would be what, exactly?

            I mean, you do actually have some–right?

    • Mike Stevens

      “The reason I don’t vaccinate is because there’s a really small chance that a vaccination will cause severe life changing harm”

      The reason I vaccinate is because there is a far greater chance that a vaccine preventable disease will cause severe life changing harm.

      Do you eat, Barzini? Have a bath? Drive a car?
      Don’t you know all of life’s actions have a “really small chance of severe life changing harm”?
      Why are you so duplicitous and contrary? Shouldn’t you at least be consistent in your choices?

  • Dr Kitty

    Every single medication has “headache, rash, intestinal upset and nausea” listed as side effects.

    There is a commonly used medication for fungal nail infections (which are cosmetically unappealing, but not harmful) that has “permanent alteration of sense of taste or smell” as a listed side effect. I ask people if they are sure that having feet that look nicer in sandals is worth that rare risk, and the answer is almost always yes.

    There is a medication for restless legs that has “sex addiction and pathological gambling” as listed side effects, again, people seem willing to take the risk they’ll lose their life savings at the racetrack if it means they get a good night’s sleep.

    You’d be amazed at what people are willing to risk, or what side effects they will put up with, if they have a medication that works.

    As anyone who prescribes oral contraceptive pills knows- people are weird and what suits one person will cause completely intolerable side effects for another. I have patients who can’t take the same brand of birth control as first degree relatives.

    • demodocus

      I’m pretty sure that “people are weird” explains a great deal :p

    • Stephanie Rotherham

      My mother has restless legs, and I remember those listed side effects; I’m not sure if she’s still on that medication, but she never did gamble away all our money at the bingo hall…

    • Charybdis

      I have restless legs that started during pregnancy and is still bothering me 12+ years later. It sucks. However, the medication I take to control it so I can sleep has never made me gamble away the house payment, insurance payments, private school tuition, etc. Nor has it turned me into a sex addict. It is worth that “risk” to be able to sleep at night.

      However, the Topamax I tried to help prevent migraines TOTALLY screwed up my taste buds while I was taking it. That stopped after I quit taking it.

      • MI Dawn

        Yeah, restless leg started for me during my first pregnancy and has bothered me intermittantly since then, getting worse in the past few years. Kid is nearly 29…

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I suspect a lot of people draw the line at “anal leakage” though

    • kfunk937

      There is a medication for restless legs that has “sex addiction and pathological gambling” as listed side effects

      Do you recall the medication, perchance? I’d like to look at the physician’s insert to ascertain whether this is possibly listed in adverse events (during clinical trials). All sorts of weirdness has to be recorded and is then reported, e.g. walking into a doorjamb, drowning, or MVA (unrelated to intervention).

      • Michael McCarthy

        Ropinirole (Requip)

        • kfunk937

          Oh, okay. Dopamine agonist, so it makes sense. Thanks.

          When I saw your reply, at first I mistook it for an answer about the homeopathic prep you mentioned, and was gonna set off alarums!! warning about actual, mechanistically probable medicines with effects, somehow showing up in homeopathy. Whew! Good thing I didn’t embarrass myself. (Yet. Today.)

          • Michael McCarthy

            funny thing, I did take Requip at one time, when it was prescribed I was required to sign a form about those side effects. It never really addressed the RLS, it did make me an intolerable bitch (or so I was told)

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      In my pharmacology exams I made sure that I put nausea and vomiting down as a side effect for every single medication, as I figured I was bound to be right. Well, except for maybe anti emetics, although it’s probably listed as a side effect for most of them too.

  • Megan
  • Melaniexxxx

    “It is also doubtful that the doctor or nurse dispensing the vaccine has fully read the product insert…”

    They’ve never been a bored as hell medical student sitting in on a clinic have they….

    • MI Dawn

      Yeah…or a bored as hell nursing student. I read many pages of the PDR back in the day (Of course, partially because we had to…our instructors were well known for asking us questions about medications being dispensed out of the blue – which could cover anything).

  • Fleur

    Yeah, the whole “it’s all in the package insert” line of argument never made sense to me either. So, there’s a hugely successful global conspiracy to suppress the truth that vaccines are dangerous. Yet, after having paid off the CDC, various politicians and every mainstream medical professional in the world, the conspirators’ arrogance led them to make one small but critical mistake: they left the evidence that vaccines are dangerous in plain sight in the package insert where anyone could find it if they wanted. But they would have gotten away with it, if it weren’t for those meddling antivaxxers!

    • Damo

      Every evil villain has to give away the plot before they off the good guy.

  • Sue

    Ironic, isn’t it?

    Big Pharma is absolutely not to be trusted, except for when they declare all possible reported adverse effects, in which case they are totally reliable.

    Funny people, these vaccine deniers.

  • MB

    I have this really elaborate theory that this is somehow Darwinian. Take a very long drink (or whatever it is you do) and stay with me here: Because our ability to adapt our environment before our bodies have had a chance to adapt over the course of millenia, evolution for us has changed. A certain percentage of the population who although are otherwise generally functioning in society, have these “deal breaker” intellectual flaws (for the sake of brevity, call these intellectually flawed people, oh, I don’t know, ‘Idiots’). For example: Anti-vaxxers. They are out to exterminate their own offspring. Or, for example Homebirth or the deep skepticism and avoidance of modern, life-saving medical techniques and medicine. It seems counter-intuitive to evolution; in fact, you might even call it de-volution. But it is not. Evolution’s response to stay relevant for our species is to create these flaws, so that we destroy ourselves, because at this point, maybe population control is what our species really needs to survive. It’s unfortunate in the case of anti-vaxxers, that their innocent offspring and those immuno-suppressed or infants too premature for all of their vaccinations to be delivered are innocent bystanders of these de-volutionary lunatics.

    • Sue

      Either that, or we survive IN SPITE of anti-vaxers, not because of them.

    • Irène Delse

      Or, in short, the anti-vaxxers and their families have a greater chance to “win” at the Darwin Awards.

  • guest

    Slightly OT, but we have an incidence of meningitis at my place of work. Read the insert, don’t read the insert: VACCINATE YOUR KIDS.

  • MichelleJo

    Heard this somewhere ~ I was circumcised when I was a week old and the effect was so bad that I couldn’t walk for a whole year afterwards.

    • guest

      All those walking newborn baby girls should have woke us to this fact sooner.

    • Sue

      I like to tell the story of my daughter’s development after vaccination.

      When she received her first vaccine, she could only babble and was totally dependent. After each vaccine, her motor and cognitive skills continued to improve. Following her HPV, she has excelled in Latin.

      Correlation or causation?

      • Mike Stevens

        My daughter started to walk within a day of getting her MMR.
        Try telling me that’s a coincidence!

  • momofone

    OT but hoping for some thoughts: I went to a training last week that was supposed to be on the topic of brain-based therapy. About thirty minutes in, the presenter used the term “big pharma” and proceeded to spend the remaining two days referring to pharmaceutical companies as “drug cartels.” (No bias there, right?) Then he got to “leaky gut syndrome.” I’m not a doctor, but for some reason I think I recall reading (here, if I’m not mistaken) that that is a crock. (I’ve used the search function here but have not found anything, so I could be wrong.) At that point I did all I could to not visibly roll my eyes, and as he proceeded to talk about “toxins” from the gut that pollute the brain, I seethed. Am I off-base, or is this pure woo?

    • J.B.

      Almost certainly woo. It can be quite strong in parents of kids with some psychological and developmental disorders.

      • momofone

        He was also a proponent of fecal transplants for restoring gut bacteria following antibiotic use. It was a waste (ha ha) of two days.

        • Gatita

          Fecal transplants are a thing and useful but not just because you took flagyl for ten days.

          • momofone

            I saw a few sources that said in the case of C. difficile they are useful, but he seemed to be promoting them more casually.

          • Gatita

            Also, in the hospital there are procedures to prevent infection/disease from fecal transplants. I’m guessing that isn’t happening when you do homefecaling. **gag**

          • Roadstergal

            It’s pretty much only C diff. There were rumblings of them being useful for IBD, but the trials didn’t pan out.

            The thing is, the microbiome is dysregulated in IBD, clearly – but how much of that is cause, and how much effect?

        • Barzini

          yeah, cause antibiotics don’t cause any harm to gut flora

          • momofone

            I’m fairly certain there are less drastic options than fecal transplants. But thanks for your input.

          • Barzini

            No doubt there are, so let’s ridicule

          • momofone

            I’m sorry; I didn’t realize I needed your permission to make a statement. I’ll be sure to check next time.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You seem to have no idea of the absolute or relative risk of various outcomes.

          • Barzini

            I know that fecal transplant isn’t woo – it’s offered by genuine and caring doctors in a number of circumstances

            After a small round of anti biotics (eg 3-10 days) is probably not the time for a fecal transplant – but after a 12 month round (eg to treat acne, or a myriad of other conditions) or even longer – sure it could be a useful procedure

          • Nick Sanders

            Any genuine procedure becomes woo when used in a situation where it offers no benefit.

          • Sue

            Faecal tranplantation is evidence-based for treatment of pseudomenbranous colitis from Clostridium difficile infection – nothing else.

            So, no, your “sure it could be a sueful procedure” is wrong – again.

            For someone who seems to know so little, you certainly proclaim a lot. I wouldn’t trust someone with so little medical knowledge to make significant decisions about child health.

    • Heidi_storage

      I believe it is pure woo. See this discussion from Science-Based Medicine.

      https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/leaky-bowel/

      “[B]ecause of an almost complete lack of supporting basic science and few therapeutic clinical trials showing no effect, virtually no physician who has an understanding of the gastrointestinal physiology gives the disease credence.”

      • Gatita

        Isn’t leaky gut implicated in celiac disease, though? Like real celiac disease? I read a theory that gluten molecules are passing out of the intestine and into the gut which triggers an immune response. Sounds plausible? But IANADr

        • Heidi_storage

          Another quote from the page: “Alterations in intestinal permeability can occur in patients with inflammatory bowel disease, sprue and other diseases. But as is often the case in pseudo-medicines the concept is used with less-than-perfect accuracy….”

          I gather that it’s sort of like how the term “yeast infection” means something different when real doctors use it than when alt-med naturopathy types use it.

          • Roadstergal

            We use ‘leaky gut’ in IBD research to refer to increased intestinal permeability, but yeah, not the woo stuff.

    • Sean Jungian

      @heidi_storage:disqus beat me to it but in the SBM blogs do a search of Orac’s blog “Respectful Insolence” I’m pretty sure he deals with the quackery that is “leaky gut”.

      Anyone referring to pharmaceutical companies as “drug cartels” should be taken with a big grain of salt, IMO.

      • momofone

        It was pretty ridiculous overall.

    • Sue

      Like much of pseudo-science, “leaky gut” takes a skerrick of science and misapplies it widely.

      Increased gut permeability IS a thing. Essentially, the gut lining separates the outside world from the body tissues, but allows absorption of needed nutrients. The cellular structure of the gut mucous lining includes so-called “tight junctions” between lining cells, which are dynamic structures, opening and closing under a range of influences. The more precise term is “gut permeability”.

      Unfortunately, most pseudoscientists wouldn’t know a tight junction if it jumped out from under the microscope and hit them in the head.

      Here is a good reference from the journal Gut 2006:
      Alterations in intestinal permeability
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856434/

    • MI Dawn

      “Leaky gut” is pure Andrew Wakefraud woo. Try Respectful Insolence or Science-Based Medicine; you’ll find lots on it there. 🙂

      • Spamamander

        Orac is the man… well, clear plastic box with lights.

  • Gatita

    All this goddamned drama over vaccines. My kid got his shots, cried a bit (not even every time, just some that I guess were especially painful) and that was it. I’m so annoyed by this issue.

    • Barzini

      Do you accept that a very small number of children are severely harmed by vaccination and that we don’t yet understand why this is?

      • Nick Sanders

        Since that is a two part question you get two answers:
        1.Yes, literally less than one in a million have a severe reaction.
        2. No, we know why. Most are caused by pre-existing but undiagnosed immune problems or by allergies to one or more components of the shot that triggered the reaction.

        • Barzini

          Thanks for your honest reply

          I would personally find it difficult to lament any parent who didn’t want to take that risk for their own child

          It’s a very small risk – but it’s a risk

          Even if committed to taking this small risk for the greater good, I still don’t see where this enjoyment of ridiculing anti-vaxers is coming from – we’re talking about concerned parents who love their children

          • Sue

            The ridicule arises from frustration. Many of us have started with polite inquiry, which has been met with raving lunacy about how vaccines don’t work at all and are part of some sort of world-wide conspiracy.

            For many of us, futher frustration occurs from having seen re-emergence of previously controlled vaccine-preventable diseases.

            Run this discussion a few hundred times, and sometimes snark sneaks in.

          • Barzini

            Well double your informational efforts – I don’t think authoritarianism is the answer

            If reasonably well educated people (true in my experience) are more convinced by Natural News than the US government, then there’s a problem somewhere

          • Sue

            I’ll double my “informational efforts” if you agree to halve your misinformational efforts. Deal?

            If you are convinced by Natural News, though, my informational efforts are likely to be lost on you.

          • Amazed

            Your experience clearly doesn’t include acquaintance with the fact that informational efforts don’t work on the likes of you. Ridiculing your ilk is the last resort we have. You’ve already decided to be happy campers… err, freeloaders. No reason to let you think it’s acceptable by accommodating you.

            Since no one will vaccinate your kids by force, no one will shut our traps by force. Deal with it. Or, you know, admit your hipocrisy or better, start making better judgments.

          • Barzini

            Fair enough, as long as one’s right to decide is respected, I guess a bit of abuse isn’t such a big deal

            Good luck, hope it works out for you

          • Sure, I am against jailing people or holding them down.

            On the other hand, I think deciding the herd’s grass is only available if you want to be part of the herd is just fine.

          • Barzini

            Thankfully just about every other country on the planet disagrees

          • Not on the value of vaccines, they don’t!

          • Barzini

            I also respect the value of vaccines, I just want ones without neurotoxins like aluminium in them

          • No, you don’t respect the value of vaccines. They haven’t put alum in there for funsies! And the word you want is neurotoxic – toxins best describes natural immunity to diptheria and pertussis. And wittering on about toxic chemicals without telling us a) at what dose they are toxic and b)at what dose they are in the product still means that either a)you’re clueless or b)you’re trying to scare us. Compounds still aren’t elements.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13cac82ab2ea5425fff43de06449adf2512b01fe06e01730e8a5835124baa99f.jpg

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1fcb1603d18e932fad27c48fdb553b465ae80fc4c14b43fc1f3f0ab6e2663f58.jpg

            This video is simplified to ~8th grade level, you’ll have to correct the Wittgenstein’s ladder afterwards. Compounds still aren’t elements.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8a5d46efbb816ee8da2bfa11f6ff57eac7284757460c409ed95f67c7b0027343.jpg

            https://youtu.be/ztkNLWFgYH8

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13cac82ab2ea5425fff43de06449adf2512b01fe06e01730e8a5835124baa99f.jpg

          • Sonja Henie

            What No balls said!

            Barzini, are you aware that No balls is a resident and citizen of the UK? Have you seen the immunization schedule for the European countries, including your own? Take a look: http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx

            Canada: http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/healthy-living-vie-saine/immunization-immunisation/schedule-calendrier/infants-children-vaccination-enfants-nourrissons-eng.php

            Australia: https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/subjects/immunising-your-children

            Also, some countries in Europe actually REQUIRE some vaccines and exact legal punishments, e.g. fines/imprisonment, if they don’t.

          • Natural news cannot manage basic chemistry.

          • Double the informational efforts?

            You mean like…getting every goverment in the world, every major health org in the world, the consensus (no, suz, that’s not unanimity before you butt in) of relevant science and medical men and women.

            Oh wait..that’s already done.

          • Barzini

            Well you’ve done your best, now let people decide, most will go with the consensus – some won’t

          • Damo

            Reasonably well-educated people are not informed by Natural News that much actually. Most people I know aren’t concerned at all about the site.

          • Sonja Henie

            What Sue said!

          • Sue

            Barzini – what is the incidence of those “life changing” events you refer to, and how do they compare with the long-term complications of all the vaccine-preventable diseases?

            (Or do you just rely on the protection of the herd, and hope that everyone else keeps vaccinating?)

          • Barzini

            I don’t fancy sitting down right now and injecting myself with something that may ruin my life

            If you do, then go for it

            I have no idea what the incidence is, I have been repeatedly told that I must inject myself to protect school children with compromised immune systems – no idea what their incidence either

            Why not provide this information clearly if it is so important

          • Sue

            He has “no idea what the incidence is”. Of course.

            The information IS important, and is freely available from a multitude of reliable sources.

          • Nick Sanders

            They mean autism. So the incidence is zero.

          • Why do you keep ignoring the risk diseases can do?

          • Barzini

            I don’t, that’s why I’m hoping for safer vaccines

          • Define ‘safer’ as you understand it.

          • Barzini

            no aluminium for a start

          • Azuran

            Geez, you still on about that?
            Alright. Explain to me how you can understand that eating apple pips, which contain cyanide. Which is TOTALLY something that can kill you if you eat a relatively small quantity of it. Is not going to kill you because the dose is too small to matter.
            But yet you can’t understand the EXACT SAME THING about aluminum in vaccine?

          • Barzini

            Ah, the old ingestion is the sames as injection defense – funny stuff

            Inject away, just leave me alone, that’s all I ask – but you can’t can you

          • Barzini

            From what I’ve read, less than 1% of aluminium stays in the body after ingestion, with the rest being eliminated as waste

            The same source claimed that injected aluminium stays in the body for far longer and that there is a cumulative effect with other vaccines

            I don’t know if that’s true, it came from an anti-vax source

            What’s your opinion?

          • Well…let’s see, a few questions that will help us decide what to think spring to mind:

            1)Have you/your sources corrected for the fact that people eat more?

            2a)What *kind* of injection are your sources talking about? IM, IV or SC? If they’re talking about IV then it’s nothing to do with vaccines. IV may also be phrased as “Intravenous” or “Straight into the bloodstream.”

            2b) Are they comparing vaccines or are they comparing parenateal (sp?) nutrition which happens far more often.

            2c)Are they comparing like-to-like (for example, are they looking at the actual Kiggs study or the useless study-survey hybrid thing?

            3)Do your sources give you actual links to their sources so you can check to see if they have quote-mined/cherry-picked? Or at least PMID index numbers.

            4)Do your sources fling out evidence-free shill gambits willy-nilly?

            5)Do your sources make any of the following really basic mistakes:

            5a) Claiming compounds are elements.

            5b)Failing to count from 0 to 100 without skipping any of the numbers in between? Failing 5th grade maths.

            5c)Committing any of the major logical fallacies?

          • Wren

            why don’t you try to find that information yourself? When those here have tried to show you, you ignored that.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not science.

          • Barzini

            That’s why I’m asking……

            That’s why I’m not just hanging out on some anti-vax site, I am literally here on a science evidence based medicine site asking what you think about this information

            I’m fully aware that anti-vax sites are biased

          • Wren

            Why would aluminium injected IM (as vaccines are) stay in the body longer? What mechanism do you think would allow the body to distinguish how aluminium entered the body after it is in the bloodstream?
            A larger percentage of injected aluminium (which isn’t actually aluminium, but an aluminium salt but we will ignore that for now) will enter the bloodstream than ingested aluminium, but more aluminium is ingested than is used in vaccines. This is where dose matters.

          • Damo

            I have no problem if you don’t want to get vaccinated–that is fine. My problem is when people like Ron Roy start poster utter nonsense that some gullible person believes is true and then doesn’t vaccinate their children because of it.

            That is why there is hostility. We are not talking about concerned parents–we are talking about someone who gets joy out of lying about something so important.

          • corblimeybot

            Sorry about the debilitating irrational aluminum phobia, CBT is good for that.

          • Barzini

            People like you used to say the same about mercury – you’re damned right I have a phobia about injecting neurotoxins into babies

            “There’s no question that mercury does not belong in vaccines.

            There are other compounds that could be used as preservatives. And everything
            we know about childhood susceptibility, neurotoxicity of mercury at the fetus and
            at the infant level, points out that we should not have these fetuses and infants
            exposed to mercury. There’s no need of it in the vaccines.”

            “Mercury in Medicine – Are We Taking Unnecesary Risks?” Hearing Before the Committee on Government Reform; 106th Congress; July 18, 2000; page 212 ; Serial No. 106-232 (Testimony of Dr. H. Vasken Aposhian, Professor of Molecular and Cellular Biology, and Pharmacology, University of Arizona)

          • Compounds still aren’t elements….

          • Sonja Henie

            Thank Goodness you came over here, No balls.

          • Good news! You’ve already got your wish! Compounds aren’t elements.

          • Charybdis

            It doesn’t start out as ridiculing. It starts out with someone making some sort of claim about vaccine safety or asking what they think is a smart question. It gets addressed/answered by several people here. This blog is NOT an echo chamber where people with pet theories come to have their brilliance and “secret knowledge” praised and reinforced with others who have the same mindset. We have a huge range of people of all professions who post here, although a lot of them are in the health/allied health professions. Immunologists, RN’s, CNM’s, MD’s, attorneys, med techs, analysts, statisticians, SAHM’s, LGBTQ’s, LC’s, etc post here, so there is a HUGE range in the scope of people’s knowledge and experience.

            So, a question is asked by a new person or parachuter. Question is then answered; in your case, NEUROTOXINS in vaccines!! Why aren’t people up in arms about this?!??! Numerous people have answered that question and provided numerous citations to papers, abstracts, etc from peer-reviewed sources. This is not enough for you. You keep harping on outdated “facts” (Mercury in vaccines! Um, not anymore. Thimerosol, a preservative containing ethyl mercury, has been removed from vaccines because they are a single dose now, you don’t have to use a large vial of the vaccine to pull multiple doses from.) and refusing to listen to cited rebuttals to your claims.

            Then the conversation drifts into the “disease incidence has decreased because of better sanitation and disinfection, not because of vaccines” territory. Your question about scarlet fever is a perfect example. Cases of scarlet fever have declined because of the advent of antibiotics. A strep infection is caught and treated with antibiotics usually fairly early in the infection. After 24 hours on antibiotics, you are not considered contagious anymore. Antibiotics have done wonders for the bacterial infections, although we are running into bacterial resistance to the current antibiotics. This is known and is being researched to develop new antibiotics. In Germany (I think it was), they have discovered

        • Ron Roy

          One in a million? I live in a town of less than 10,000 people, and that includes the inmates from a state and federal prison, and I can remember at least 100 cases ( I made a list) of people and animals having severe reactions to vaccines. I had three deaths on my list but I was just recently reminded of a fourth.

          • Azuran

            And do you have actual medical records that concludes those death are caused by the vaccines? Because just ‘I heard about it on the internet’ means absolutely nothing.
            On the meantime. While I have yet to see even 1 dog or cat either die or have a life threatening complication from a vaccine. I have treated thousands of pets for VPD and seen over a hundred either die of the diseases themselves or die of long term complications of those diseases.

          • Ron Roy

            Newspaper articles on two.

          • Daleth

            Post ’em. We’re all ears.

          • Azuran

            So, you only actually got 2. Not 100. You got two. That’s all.

            And what you have are newspapers article, not medical reports, not coroners reports. Not medical cases reported in a medical journal. You got two NEWSPAPERS article. Which are probably very sad parents trying to understand why their kids died and are blaming the vaccines. Newspaper are such good sources of medical material after all /s

          • Ron Roy

            The doctors that treated these people ADMITTED ( did you SEE that? ) ADMITTED their problems were do to the vaccine / vaccines they received.

          • Nick Sanders

            Gee, seems like you would have started with that, and documentation of these admissions, rather than burying the lede.

          • Mike Stevens

            Haven’t “seen” anything yet, Ron.
            But if you post a pic of the articles then we will all be able to see it.
            You can do that, and prove you aren’t lying, can’t you?

          • Ron Roy

            Searched for them. Online articles were not available. Will however go to the local historical society and see if they can help. Who knows this may open a can of worms, for the better. concerning the harm of vaccines. Thanks.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not science.

          • Ron Roy

            Science, science emmm. Ah yes science the trash put out bt those who are paid by the drug industry yes science.

          • Ron Roy

            I replied to this but my comment was deleted. What is it that you fear people will know. Every time I get deleted I post the discussion on Facebook so people will see how the system is rigged,

          • Ron Roy

            Two DEATHS out of four, three confirmed by ready….gasp! DOCTORS. the others I guess were either not reported to any newspaper or were not sensational enough. Nice try though.

          • Azuran

            so, let’s say you had 2 deaths. (which I still don’t believe, since your source is a newspaper article)
            You say 2/10 000 because that’s the amount of people in your city. But you are not the one who decides the denominator. What if those 2 deaths where the only one in your entire state in the last 5 years? or the only one in the 5 states around in the last 5 years? That’s not 2/10 000.
            How many more deaths do you think we would have if no one of that entire state had been vaccinated?
            That’s the whole point of vaccination. You think we don’t know about side effect and the (actually low) risk of death. We do. But we understand that without vaccines, the death tool and long term sequels of those VPD would be hundreds if not thousands of time higher.

            I see it every day. In the last 15 years, putting together all of the vets of my clinic. There have been 1 case of anaphylactic shoc that resulted in death. We get around 1 mild vaccine reaction per month, that resolve with only Benadryl. On the other hand. Taking only my own clinical experience of the past 3½ years. I’ve diagnosed VPD over 500 times, Had to put down over 200 pets because owners couldn’t afford the very expensive treatment and had at least 30 more died despite treatment.

          • Ron Roy

            Yeah right the only two in the entire state. Nice try. Don’t you have a smidgen of a conscience?

          • Who?

            Well you want no vaccines, which, the numbers tell us, will lead to many more deaths.

            Try a different tune, hey? Not only are you off key and dull, but your lyric is moronic.

          • Ron Roy

            Vaccines have cause far far more harm than good if any good at all.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …as evidenced by no high-quality research.

          • Azuran

            Do you have any proof that there were more than 2 deaths in the state? (otherwise you are just letting your emotions talk)
            I do believe you are the one without a conscience. Many MORE people would be dead of permanently damaged without vaccines.
            Of ALL the things we do in life, vaccines is probably the thing with that saves the most life.
            We are constantly working to make vaccines even safer and safer, so that that 1 in a million kid doesn’t die anymore. But you would have us go back in a time when kids got sick all the time and died in tropes.
            You have 2 possible death by vaccine in your sate? Well last year, 2 babies in MY state died of whooping cough. And there were only 600 cases. Imagine how many more babies would have died if no one was vaccinated and we had thousands of cases every year.

          • Heidi

            I’ve known one dog to have a vaccine reaction, it is an Italian greyhound, and it had a mild seizure a few minutes after the vaccination. The dog doesn’t have any long-term effects. On the other hand, not being a vet, I know of many dogs that have died of parvo, our local pound had to euthanize every single dog because of a parvo outbreak, and personally had two kittens from a shelter succumb to panleukopenia (despite receiving treatment).

          • Azuran

            I didn’t even include the local shelters and pet stores in my numbers. They are basically in a constant kennel cough and infectious rhinotracheites epidemics. They don’t get much puppies. But we put down 2-3 litters of paleukopenia positive kitten that people dumped on their front door every month during summer.

          • Ron Roy

            Two DEATHS out of four, three confirmed by ready….gasp! DOCTORS. the
            others I guess were either not reported to any newspaper or were not
            sensational enough. Nice try though.

          • Mike Stevens

            So post an image of the articles here please, Ron.
            That should be easy, unless you are lying.
            Feel free to black out identifiable parts of the newsarticle.

          • Ron Roy

            I have to thank you AGAIN. A friend of my son and I, a former meat cutter / butcher told my son and I it was common for him and his co-workers to have to cut tumors from cuts of beef before putting them in the display cases. He said ” those tumors were where the beef cattle had been injected with vaccines and antibiotics”. At this point in his life he was raising his own meat because he swore he would never buy store meat again. If you want I can give you his phone number?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            That’s not scientific evidence. Please present scientific evidence.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ll make sure my doctor doesn’t give me any cow vaccines, then.

          • Nick, we’ve told YOU about Dr. Doolittle THREE TIMES already. When are you going to learn?

            😉

          • Nick Sanders

            Have you seen his rates? I can’t afford not to see him!

          • Ron Roy

            Yeah you do that. If you really want to stay healthy avoid all vaccines.

          • Ron Roy

            Or any other vaccine if your smart. Ok I guess you’ll get vaccinated. Oh and thanks for deleting many of my comments I take it as a compliment because I know I hit a nerve.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You shouldn’t. I’m deleting them because they’re repeats.

          • Ron Roy

            No there not you’re deleting them because you fear and deny the truth. But that’s ok I use that as ammunition to prove that there’s a concerted effort to hide the truth. Feel free to delete.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t have the power to delete comments.

          • I’ve got a better idea. Link us to this vet’s research.

            But hang on, Ron Roy! However did this tumour happen in the skin or muscle (Varying mixes of that … depending on how much gristle there is… well, it is what beef *is*, after all) when according to you lot, vaccines are shot “straight into the bloodstream”?

          • Mike Stevens

            Fascinating.
            This would be a medical/veterinary revelation if it were true.
            Vets and health inspectors would be falling over themselves to get this discovery into the published journals, and make a name for themselves.
            But it doesn’t seem to have happened. Strange that.

          • Charybdis

            That would be wonderful, thank you. Then we can check out your claims ourselves since you refuse to put your money where your mouth is about all your claims.

          • corblimeybot

            Why would we want the phone number of a butcher without medical training, who has a conspiracy theory to spew?

          • Nick Sanders

            Crank calling him with the right questions might lead to some very interesting rants.

          • Azuran

            No thanks. I also happen to know people who worked in butcher house. Funny, they never saw anything like your ‘friend’ is describing. I didn’t see anything of the sort while doing my own rotation training in a butcher house.
            Did your friend had any kind of medical knowledge to be able to diagnose cancer? Did he sent those ‘tumors’ to a pathologist to have them conformed as cancer?

            Cattle farmer are also very careful to avoid giving injections in the muscles BTW. Because although it doesn’t cause cancer, it does causes inflammation and possible scarring. That will result in part of the meat being removed from the line. Nnot that it is dangerous to eat in any way or anything. people are just used to very aesthetic looking meat. They won’t buy meat that looks damaged in any way.)

          • Damo

            “If you want I can give you his phone number?”

            Yeah, I would like his number.

            Was he the one administering the vaccines? Otherwise how would he know?

          • Jonathan Graham

            ”those tumors were where the beef cattle had been injected with vaccines and antibiotics”

            …and meathead sent those tumors to a pathologist who confirmed it right? Oh, he didn’t?

          • Damo

            Still waiting for this guy’s number. I would love to ask him about his experiences.

          • How about letting us read his research?

          • Ron Roy

            It’s funny ( not really ) that the adverse effects these people had are listed in the package inserts that come with the vaccines as possible side effects. Oh but it can’t be the vaccine regardless of what it says in those inserts. Yeah right. Deniers deniers deniers.

          • Azuran

            You just don’t understand how the listing of side effects works. They will list ANYTHING that happened to ANYONE after they had a vaccine or a drug in the list of possible side effect, without any proof that it was actually caused by the vaccine or drugs.
            I work with vaccine company and they are ridiculously generous with compensation for basically anything that could possibly happen after a vaccine/drug, without any need for me to provide any proof.
            They give monetary compensation when a puppy that is known to be car sick gets car sick on the way home after a vaccine.
            I’ve even seen another company who actually did a double blinded placebo study on their new drug to see if it caused vomiting. The placebo group vomited just as much as the drug group, but they still had to vomiting as a possible side effect because some dog vomited. And they still offer a new dose of the medication, free of charge, if the dog vomits.
            Vomiting is listed as a side effect of my most used anti-vomiting medication. Because some dogs will keep vomiting even with the medication, they had to list vomiting as a side effect.

            Also, I’m still waiting on the physical proof of those ‘100 severe vaccine reaction’

          • Damo

            The irony of this comment on this discussion about this article is killing me.

            You aren’t really this daft, are you?

          • Please can you show us where these adverse events are listed as side effects on the actual package insert?

            Not adverse events, not adverse reactions but actually listed as side effects?

          • Nick Sanders

            I have no knowledge or concern for the reaction rates of animal vaccines. They are almost certainly not held to the same safety standards as human medications.

            That said, thanks for demonstrating that you don’t know how statistics work.

          • Ron Roy

            ”you don’t know how statistics work.” An overused sound bite. There are two versions of statistics the one put forth by people like you and your employers and the real statistics that you, your cohorts and the companies you work for try and hide and constantly refute.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, I mean “statistics” the branch of mathematics, not “the statistics of this data”. Here’s a free starter lesson: distribution is rarely uniform.

          • And your evidence anyone here is being paid is *what*? You do have some, don’t you? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6df0b23b2288545f97082e2fccd26a5badf138101afd08f310b05f6781b8a638.jpg

          • Ron Roy
          • Nope, not a doctor. And I asked for evidence someone here was being paid.

          • Wren

            I’m not. Many here are not. Even if your link had anything to do with reality, it fails to explain the doctors outside the US who receive absolutely no payments, freebies or benefits from pharmaceutical companies who still promote vaccaintion.

          • Sonja Henie

            I seriously doubt that ANYONE posting here is being paid to post, and I doubt that there are many paid by “Big Pharma” at all, in any capacity. As far as the “freebies” if anyone thinks a mouse pad or a pen is likely to influence a doctor to prescribe a vaccine or not, they’re crazy!

          • But it would be nice to see evidence just once. I almost *want* there to be a pharma shill … just to spoil the perfect record anti-vaxxers have of not even being right once.

          • shay simmons

            Ever notice how everyone Ron knows is sick, dying or dead?

          • Nick Sanders

            Honestly? I don’t care about what he says enough to have noticed. I have, however, noticed that many of the more adamantly insulting antivaxxers claim to know unbelievably large numbers of people who are more profoundly disabled than anyone I encountered while attending an exclusively special education school.

          • Heidi

            I worked with intellectually disabled individuals in a group home setting. Most of them were non-verbal, most of them had fairly severe physical disabilities, too. Not one of them was vaccine injured. One of the 8 individuals was autistic – the kind that anti-vaxxers consider legitimate autism and he was by far the highest functioning person among the eight and he was verbal. His mother says she noticed differences between him and her other children from the day he was born. His parents definitely don’t blame vaccines. I never heard of one person that the organization I worked for served who had a vaccine reaction to blame. It was either genetic, chromosomal abnormalities, or the result of being born very prematurely. Worked on a med surg floor for a couple of years and the ER for a year and still never met one vaccine injured person. I did witness a non-vaccinated family come down with measles in the ER, though. I knew of people who had permanent paralysis in their limbs from polio and sterility from mumps. So yeah, it’s pretty strange Ron Roy and other anti vaxxer know all these vaccine injured people and animals.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            There’s a clear correlation here – knowing Ron is hazardous to your health!

          • Heidi

            Strange, Ron Roy, I have lived in a city with a few million, in a city with a population of about 30,000, and currently a city with a little over 200,000 and the only vaccine reaction I know of is in an Italian greyhound. Then again they are notorious for stuff like that. The dog is fine.

          • Ron Roy

            I had a business where I was in contact with hundreds of people every day and they knew I had an interest in vaccines. Do the math 19 years X hundreds of people. That’s why I found out about how many people and animals had been affected by vaccines. I still get calls from a few people concerning vaccines. A lot of my customers were health professionals that were more than happy to give me information not just about vaccines but bad reactions to different medications.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not science. Not even close.

          • Ron Roy

            The ” science ”of today is about as believable as the tooth fairy. Most of today’s science is nothing but falsehoods perpetrated by the pharmaceutical industry to peddle their poisons. Any scientist that dare tell the truth that would in any way harm the profits of the MEDICAL MAFIA risks loosing everything he or she has. That’s the way the system works folks.

          • Mike Stevens

            What are the VAERS numbers for the deaths?

          • Ron Roy

            How in the hell should I know this was over a span of 20 /30 years but bear in mind these are only the cases I was made aware of.

          • So you live in a town of less than 10,000 people? Okay, let’s say you live in a town with 9000 people to make the maths easy.

            So that’s 1.11111% and you have to add in the animals to get to less than <2%. As evidence that vaccines are dangerous, this is really rather pathetic.

          • Michael McCarthy

            Well, it appears Ron has shot himself in the foot. Should we call a doctor?

          • Well, he’s scored an own goal so we should probably call in a professional football coach too…just to be safe.

          • Michael McCarthy

            that is probably the only scoring Ron ever does. ba-dum-tss

          • Ron Roy

            ”Ron has shot himself in the foot.” Aha either just a coincidence ( a familiar sound bite or you’re Thomas Mohr using a new alias.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Ron has shot himself in the foot.” Aha either just a coincidence ( a
            familiar sound bite or you’re Thomas Mohr using a new alias.

          • Michael McCarthy

            well, I am familiar with an actor named Jay Mohr. No Thomas Mohr here. Maybe the problem is that you have a familiar habit of shooting yourself in the foot?

          • Mike Stevens

            I blame the inbreeding.
            Is your town in West Virginia, or Kentucky?

          • Ron Roy

            I’ll be happy to forward your comment to the state governments of those two states. In answer to your question I live in Berlin NH.

          • Mike Stevens

            Please do. I am sure they will sit up and take notice, seeing how it is you sending them random stuff culled off the internet.

          • Sonja Henie

            Hey, now, my friend! I grew up in a county that shares a common border with West Virginia. Cut those people a break! They have mandatory, no exemption but medical vaccine laws!

            Said in a friendly manner!

          • corblimeybot

            Yeah, my grandfathers family is from West Virginia and I’ve done his family tree. There’s no inbreeding; there aren’t even any cousin marriages as far back as I could go. My grandfather was a pro-science, pro-vaxx, pro-modern-obstetrics*, somewhat-pro-choice veteran and educator with a Ph.D. He came from a dirt poor coal mining town no bigger than a football field.

            Stereotypes aren’t nice.

            *because he saw my grandmother nearly die of preeclampsia twice in the 1950s, and had a preemie son that barely survived.

          • Mike Stevens

            Dang! Knew I’d probably step on someone’s tootsies!
            But I couldn’t have chosen a nicer person’s…

          • Sonja Henie

            Look up Beaver County, Pennsylvania!

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m gonna say something I’ll regret in a minute…

          • Michael McCarthy

            PA has some interestingly named places. Like Intercourse. (oddly enough, an Amish community)

          • Sonja Henie

            Hey, there’s Beaver, the county seat; Beaver Falls, my hometown; Big Beaver, where my father’s father’s family had their farm; South Beaver, the Beaver River, the Little Beaver Creek, and probably a few more Beavers as well.

          • Nick Sanders

            Sounds like Beaver Fever.

      • Ron Roy

        A very large number are harmed it just doesn’t happen all at once. Problems can and do manifest themselves days, weeks, months or even years later.

        • Azuran

          define ‘a very large number’ what % of children are actually permanently ‘harmed’ by vaccines?

          • Ron Roy

            Historically an exact percentage is hard to pinpoint however….. Lets start with the small pox vaccine in the early 1900’s: In the Philippines after 6 years of forced vaccination against smallpox they had an epidemic where the death rate was three time greater that it would have been in a normal epidemic. The same thing happened in Germany, Italy, Japan and parts of England. Now lets fast forward to the original polio vaccine that was contaminated with 40 different micro-organisms one being a cancer causing virus ( Simian Virus40 ) which is now part of our genome. Fast forward again people in India that were vaccinated against polio came down with what is called Acute Flaccid Paralysis, which is far deadlier than polio. You do the math.

          • Azuran

            Got any proof of that that isn’t ‘vaccinenews’?
            And also. If your best example of why vaccine in bad happened over 100 years ago. you might want to reconsider your position.

          • Ron Roy

            100 years 90 years 80 years 70 years 60 years 50 years 40 years 30 years 20 years 10 years. The whole history of vaccines is deplorable.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            The anti-vaccine movement has been around for nearly 200 years and in that time they’ve amassed a perfect record: they haven’t been right even once! Apparently you’re continuing the tradition.

            Part of the problem is that you don’t seem to understand what constitutes evidence. The MINIMUM condition for scientific evidence is a peer reviewed scientific paper or government collected scientific data. Even that evidence is only worthy of consideration; it doesn’t mean it’s true.

            If you can’t offer scientific evidence THAT YOU HAVE READ (the entire paper, not the abstract), you aren’t worth paying attention to since your personal beliefs are not a substitute for scientific evidence.

          • Nick Sanders

            Smallpox gone.
            Polio all but gone.
            Measles on the way out.

            What an utter travesty!

          • Ron Roy

            Amazing as to what a good diet and hygiene will do.

          • Nick Sanders
          • JGC

            And your evidence establishing that it was good diet and hygiene, rather than an aggressive vaccination campaign conducted by the World Health organization, that is responsible for the eradication of smallpox would be what, exactly?
            Oh, that’s right. You don’t have any.

          • Ron Roy

            And your evidence that it was vaccines? Oh sorry you don’t have any.

          • Azuran

            Wow, you really are dumb if you think there is no evidence that it’s thanks to vaccine. There is a freaking mountain of evidence everywhere.

          • Ron Roy

            Didn’t get that on vaccinenews. Never even heard of it but thanks for the tip. I could list about 30 or so websites with the info you want but you wouldn’t look at them anyway but again thanks for an idea. I’ll post them on Facebook. again thanks.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In other words, you have NO scientific evidence.

          • Idiot. Of course, AFP is far deadlier than polio since it contains “polio and other AFPs.”

            That’s like saying “wild animal attacks kill more people than tiger attacks.” Um, Duh.

          • Mike Stevens

            Some people here assert that everyone is damaged by vaccines – ie 100%.
            That’s how far they’ve crawled down the rabbit hole.

          • Azuran

            Meh, 100% is nothing. I’ve seen some argue that the damages lasts for 3-4 generations

          • I’ve seen TAVs post claims that it lasts 7 generations.

          • Azuran

            you have to wonder how they figured that out. That’s basically going back to the very firsts vaccination ever.
            Good luck finking someone whose ancestors didn’t get any kind of vaccine for the last 7 generation.

          • “Good luck finking someone whose ancestors didn’t get any kind of vaccine for the last 7 generation.”

            I think that’s the point, Azuran.

          • Azuran

            yea, but to claim that it ‘last 7 generation’ then you need people who are vaccine free for 6 generation and showing signs of vaccine damage.

          • Only if you’re testing hypothesises and conforming them to what the data says. If however, you’ve started with a conclusion and are attempting to wrap the data around it….

          • Michael McCarthy

            “If however, you’ve started with a conclusion and are attempting to wrap the data around it….”
            That reminds me of a pair of shoes I simply had to have once- Italian leather, hand sewn, marked down from $500 to $75. Post purchase, I realized the outfit choices to go with said shoes were both limited and nearly impossible to find. (although they did get a lot of compliments at an HRC fundraiser)

  • Dr Kitty

    I have decided that #2 will get his MMR/Men B/Hib/Men C/ pneumococcal vaccination at 13 months and 3 days. This is the 12-13 month vaccine.

    This is because my sister is getting married when he is 12 months and 28 days old and I don’t want to deal with a feverish, rashy baby during the long weekend of the wedding.

    Both he and his sister are grumpy pumpkins for 48hrs after vaccination, and she got a delayed measly type rash a week after her first MMR.

    I’m fully aware of possible side effects, but I’m not skipping it altogether!

    • Sue

      And, thankfully, the feverish crankiness generally reflects a healthy immune system, reacting to the antigen, which probably means they will effectively sero-convert.

      • Barzini

        Yeah, fever in babies is awesome

        • Nick Sanders

          A short term fever sure beats a trip to the hospital for an acute infection.

          • Barzini

            All of the anecdotal evidence I have come across with regard to vaccine injury involves babies having a fever

            Usually the fever breaks and everything is OK – sometimes it doesn’t and things aren’t OK (ever again)

          • swbarnes2

            And sometimes kids get measles and are never okay again.

            That scenario is a lot more likely with measles than with vaccines.

          • Sue

            “sometimes it doesn’t and things aren’t OK (ever again)”

            Huh? They have a fever for the rest of their lives? How does that work?

            I have looked after hundreds – if not thousands – of kids after benign febrile convulsions. ALmost all of them have been from infections – not immunisations. I have never seen a fever that didn’t resolve – how is that even possible?

          • Barzini

            Well even your fellow commentators here admit that vaccines do cause severe life changing harm very occasionally

            In such cases, the child typically has a high fever which goes on for longer than normal (ER| visit etc.), except, when things calm down, the kid is ‘broken’

            It’s rare, but it happens, most kids deal with it, but some don’t

            Thousands of these anecdotes out there if you’re interested

          • Sue

            Again, “Barsini”, you have no idea what you are talking about.

            Nobody here as accepted that “the child typically has a high fever which goes on for longer than normal (ER| visit etc.), except, when things calm down, the kid is ‘broken’ ”

            What is “longer than normal”? In what way are they ‘broken’?

            Real vaccine reactions do exist – but they don’t break children.

            There are local reactions, allergic reactions, very rarely Guillain-Barre’ syndrome. High fever may cause a benign febrile convulsion – but these are much more common from simple viral or bacterial infections.

            What type of reaction are you referring to, and what is the real evidence of vaccine causation?

            Anecdotes, I am aware of. Anti-vax land is overflowing with them. Evidence iof causation s different.

          • Such as?

        • Steph858

          Especially when it’s caused by naturally acquired measles!

    • Sonja Henie

      That sounds perfectly fine to me! At out office, we gave MMR at 15 months, anyway. When we inquired, after the Disney outbreak, if we should give it sooner, the state health dept. said no, that 15 mo was/is acceptable. We gave Hib and Prevnar (pneumococcal) at 12 months, which in effect meant when the patient first came in after the first birthday.

  • Madtowngirl

    But, but, but, if I actually read, I can’t use my privileged status to deny any “toxins” to my special snowflake!

  • Heidi_storage

    I responded to this comment from a dear friend who is, alas, a rabid anti-vaxxer and avid believer in essential oils and the notion that Big Pharma is trying to keep secret the all natural prevention/cure for cancer.

    I said yes, I had read the package insert. (Which I had.) Which should have stopped the conversation.

    Unfortunately, a bunch of my friend’s Facebook friends jumped in, telling me all about the children they personally knew who had turned autistic and became “different children” after their shots.

    There is no arguing with anti-vaxxers.

    • Mel

      Ask her how she feels about pennyroyal essential oil for treatment of morning sickness. Or the use of orange oil before working outside. Or wintergreen for anything.

      • Heidi_storage

        People actually drink an abortifacient tea for morning sickness?

        • FormerPhysicist

          I guess it could cure morning sickness.

          • Mel

            I thought about adding an afterthought that it probably also prevent autism prenatally, but that seemed a bit dark even for my dark sense of humor…..

          • Mariana

            I had a friend who drank that tea for morning sickness then lectured me about getting a full-body massage in my first trimester. She went on and on about how the massage could be too rough and kill my baby, or too relaxing and cause the baby to slide out (how’s that even possible? I’m not a toothpaste tube…). But the tea was all natural… And therefore ok. (The massage was natural too if you think of it… A real, natural person was going to rub me with oil)

        • Mel

          I’ve seen it for sale before without a pregnancy warning…..

      • Mrs.Katt the Cat

        Oh god wintergreen! It’s my go to oil for explaining what EO’s really are and why they should be used with caution.
        As one who is weirdly sensitive to salicylates, I have had many “please don’t use that because I don’t want to die today” conversations with “Oh, but this is *therapeutic grade*” salespeople who just, don’t, understand that the more *pure* it is, the faster I am going down.

        • An Actual Attorney

          What’s wrong with wintergreen? I wouldn’t buy the oil. I like the gum flavor. And that the lifesavers spark when chewed.

          • Charybdis

            I can’t abide the wintergreen…to me it tastes like a penny or some other metal has corroded in my mouth. It definitely has a metallic tang to it. Spearmint (peppermint has an underlying bitterness to me) and cinnamon are the big winners here.

            But the sparking Lifesavers thing is neat to do/see.

          • Mrs.Katt the Cat

            It is almost pure methyl salicylate. Even the teensy bit used in gum flavoring effects my ability to breathe.
            And is acts basically like aspirin, pain relieving and blood thinning.

          • Irène Delse

            And it stands to reason that it has the same kind of side effects as aspirin. Including deadly ones.

          • Mrs.Katt the Cat

            You would think that to be a reasonable assumption, then you must be a reasonable person 🙂
            Not everyone is. I once had to explain this concept to a nurse? (CPA? I forget what they did but it was real medicine enough for them to know better)- who swore they would never take an aspirin because Meds, oh but slathering on straight wintergreen was great and could I give them a massage with it? They didn’t believe me when I told them it was the same thing with a higher chance of accidental overdose.

          • *frantically googles ‘wintergreen’ and ‘hemophilia’*

            Huh. Interesting.

          • An Actual Attorney

            Breathing would be definitely important!

      • corblimeybot

        I was once researching death records for my grandfather’s rural town around the turn of the 20th century. I found a record for a woman whose cause of death was “oil of wintergreen poisoning”. I never was an EO believer, but I hadn’t known until that point that people used enough of it to kill themselves.

      • Monkey Professor for a Head

        But it’s natural and therefore totally safe right? Just like cyanide and botulinum toxin.

        • Irène Delse

          Or the pollen allergy that tried to kill me when I was a kid. Asthma is no fun.

        • Beth

          ooh, and lead! And mercury. And arsenic. And lightning, sharks, tigers, venomous snakes, smallpox, pneumonia and falls from heights. All totally natural and safe!

          • Mariana

            Opium too! Totally plant based! You could even make it organic if you wanted!

          • Nick Sanders

            Hell, it’d take a lot of work, but you could make an organic blend of opium, alcohol, and cocaine. If that’s not enough, through in a little digitalis and belladonna extract!

      • MI Dawn

        OMG. This is what happens when amateurs start playing with herbs….

      • Well, I suppose it would *technically* work even if it’s a bad idea for other obvious reasons.

    • Gatita

      Of course they became different children after their shots. Kids are changing from day to day at that age, both physically and behaviorally. Goddamn, folks, use your brains.

      • Megan

        My kid took her first steps shortly after her 12 month vaccines. I have not yet reported to VAERS…

        • Bombshellrisa

          Mine decided to pull out every tissue in the Kleenex box at auntie’s house. Also to try a bite of everything grandma offered at the dinner she made for our birthdays. Must prove that vaccines cause children to be be curious and experimental with their palates.

        • Sue

          Mine scored 100% on an international Latin test after her HPV vaccine. Haven’t reported that to VAERS either, but I love skiting about it here!

        • corblimeybot

          OMG MINE TOO BE STRONG MAMA

        • Barzini

          Do you accept that vaccines do sometimes (yes very rarely) severely harm children?

          I presume you do, so are these flippant comments not a bit insensitive – there really are parents out there whose lives have been destroyed by what you are joking about

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Curiously, the parents of the rare children who have been harmed are generally not anti-vaxxers. Anti-vaxxers are often people who prefer to think that their children’s genetic diseases or disabilities were caused by vaccines despite the lack of evidence.

          • Barzini

            I’m pretty sure parents of children damaged by vaccination think twice about vaccinating their other children – I certainly would

          • Sue

            What sort of “damage” are you referring to, Barzini?

            If it’s allergy, the shots can easily be given in hospital, with pre-treatment. Plenty of smart parents, who care about their kids, don’t want them to get vaccine-preventable diseases, and understand that allergy can be managed.

            If you’re talking about something like GBS, it is more likely to occur after a viral infection like influenza than a vaccine.

            And, if you’re talking about genetic or developmental disorders, see Dr Amy’s comment above – these are not vaccine reactions.

          • Barzini

            every so often kids are severely harmed by vaccines – I know you guys don’t dig anecdotal evidence, but there are thousands of anecdotes out there, from all countries

            The official figure tends to be 1/1,000,000 – well at least they accept such damage occurs

          • Nick Sanders

            You know what there aren’t anecdotes of? All the times people didn’t catch a disease thanks to being vaccinated, because it’s hard to remember something that didn’t happen. But epidemiological data can still track it, and it’s staggering.
            https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/pb.414643305272351.-2207520000.1459792714./1041838359219506/?type=3

            https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/pb.414643305272351.-2207520000.1457386072./881748448561832/?type=3

            https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/a.414675905269091.96547.414643305272351/1204165926320081/?type=3

          • Barzini

            I dunno man, it’s 8 am in Europe bro, I have to stop this now and hit the sack, I won’t say the CDC picture has convinced me, but I’ll definitely look at it the next time someone tries to inject me with neurotoxins

          • 1)At what dose is the chemical in question neurotoxic (the word you actually want)

            2)At what dose is the neurotoxic chemical in the product?

            Without those bits of info, there’s no reason for us to believe you are anything other than a)clueless or b)trying to scare us.

          • Actually, no, the official figure is “who knows? It occurs so rarely.” Going off compensated NVICP claims though, you get to 0.71 in a million.

          • Sonja Henie

            Correct. And many of those are “table injuries”, that is, no fault.

      • corblimeybot

        I always wonder if some of them are responding to their child turning into a toddler, by claiming it was the vaccines that took away their precious, agreeable baby. Not the normal process of growing up and experimenting with independence and control.

      • Sue

        Yep. And virtually all kids grow and develop positively after each shot.

    • Irène Delse

      Oh, gosh, essential oils… The drugstores in my neck of the woods have been taken over, or something very like. Recently, I was perusing the EO display while the employee was filling I’m my prescription. Half the items were something used in the perfume industry (lavender, cedar, geranium) and half of the rest could be described as foodstuffs (lemon, sweet orange, peppermint)… Bonus point for those items employed for perfume *and* as food, like cinnamon!

      • Sue Ieraci

        And, they seem to forget that the word “essential”, in this case, is the adjective from “essence”, not essential as in necessary!

        • Irène Delse

          Good point! It’s how they’re extracted, not what they do.

    • BeatriceC

      The cancer cure suppression conspiracy pisses me off the most. It strikes way too close to home. MrC is a retired research scientist and worked in “big pharma”. His first wife died of cancer. So what they are saying is that this wonderful man is cold and heartless enough to allow his own wife, his first true love and college sweetheart to die, leaving their then-13-year-old twin daughters motherless, all to keep up the pretense of a cure for some undisclosed amount of money. Yeah. No. He would have done anything in the world to keep her from dying.

    • Kelly

      Oh, is this why my kids become screaming monsters around the age of one? My youngest has decided that she wants to stand in front of my face and scream until my ears start ringing. I need to invest in some heavy duty ear plugs.

      • BeatriceC

        Get the earplugs. You will need them in 12-13 years when they start slamming doors and blasting ear splitting music.

    • Mariana

      You’d think that ir the science didn’t convince them, the implausibility of such huge secret (the cure for cancer) being hidden for so long would do the trick. In a world where secrets tend to leak sooner or later (legally or illegally), how could they keep this under wraps for so long?

      But then… I have a coworker who is sure the sun orbits the Earth…

  • Mel

    I’m sure if you really wanted to read the package insert and you ASKED the medical professional giving the shot, they could give you one of the package inserts.

    HOWEVER……

    The medical inserts are written for consumption by medical professionals with at least 4 years of college (or the equivalent of grade 16+) training in the medical field (for RN/BSN) and many more years of training for PA, NFP, DO, MD. D.PHM, etc.

    The fliers given to patients prior to vaccination are written at ~4th grade US (or ~10 years of age) reading level for a reason. Taking a whack at deciding your kid’s health from a insert that you are not able to read coherently is dangerous as hell.

    • Madtowngirl

      Don’t worry, if I can’t pronounce it, I don’t put it in my body. That’s why I stopped putting anything with dihydrogen monoxide in my body.

      • Roadstergal

        I’ve read some of the things the Food Babe puts under ‘can’t pronounce it, don’t eat it.’ How shitty is her speaking ability? They might take a moment if you’re unfamiliar with the words, but they’re fully pronounceable…

        • Heidi

          Has she ever looked at the CHEMIKILLZ that are in either an organic or conventional piece of produce? I mean, a lot of them sound like anti-freeze ingredients to me!

        • Sean Jungian

          Her speaking manner is abysmal. She talks like a young teenager, lots of “ucky mucky poo-poo-caca” baby talk, lots of “Awesome!”s and just a limited vocabulary especially for a 30-ish college graduate.

        • BeatriceC

          I’m terrible trying to pronounce words common in biology and chemistry. I seriously have to practice them so I don’t make a fool of myself. Thankfully I have a resident scientist who helps me and keeps me from looking like an idiot.

          Edited to add: autocorrect is doing a fantastic job of making me look stupid instead.

        • Sue

          Ha ha. I suspect, then, that my diet will be much more varied than hers!

        • demodocus

          And then there’s the obvious speech impediment thing. I couldn’t pronounce anything with an S correctly for years. No spinach or lettuce for me!

          • Heidi

            Don’t eat spinach! It has oxalic acid in it, and they use oxalic acid in toilet cleaners! It’s like sprinkling Bar Keeper’s Friend on your yoga mat steak!

          • “Parcel-snips” until I was about nine.

      • Heidi_storage

        I try really hard not to put ANY chemicals in my body, but dang, it’s hard to hold my breath constantly so as not to allow in any oxygen and nitrogen in! Especially that nitrogen, which I hear is absolutely ALL OVER the place in airplanes!

        • Beth

          bad news – even if you succeed in holding your breath constantly, carbon dioxide will appear in your bloodstream and build up to dangerous levels. Must be because of all the toxins we’re surrounded with all the time.

          • Heidi_storage

            Time for some chelation and a coffee enema plus juice cleanse, I guess.

          • Wait! There’s a complicated chemical called caffeine in coffee. Best stick to plain old water….

      • guest

        I don’t understand this criteria. If you’re educated in chemistry and medical science and *can* pronounce it all, does that mean it’s not toxic for you? What about the children of people who can pronounce it? (Does the lexicon of other areas of study come with the same risks? If you can’t pronounce “synechdoche,” does that mean it’s dangerous to read one?)

        • guest

          Should say “criterium.”

          • QuantumMechanic

            “criterion” 🙂

          • guest

            I tried. At least criterium is a real word.

      • Beth

        good call. too much dihydrogen monoxide can kill you. It’s clearly a toxin.

      • Mariana

        I love this reasoning… Is that why my toddler ate only bananas for 6 weeks? He couldn’t pronounce anything else?

        And don’t forget, statistics prove that 100% of those who drink water, die sooner or later. And those who never drink water are also at risk.

  • Irène Delse

    Package insert are magic. One of my siblings has “package insert syndrome”: if she reads the list of adverse effects in a package insert, she feels like she got at least one of them. She knows this and asked what she should do acid this. I suggested seriously to stop reading after the instructions for use.

    • Sue

      Nocebo effect.

    • Mariana

      I have that too! I don’t even need to take the medication to have the side effects once I read about them. And yet, I can’t keep myself from reading the inserts… It’s very useful for insomnia… I just read the insert from Valium and go back to bed (lol).

  • moto_librarian

    I recently started a new asthma medication. It actually had two inserts. One was a “quick guide” about how to prime and use the inhaler. The other was the typical, exhaustive insert. Guess which one I read?

    • MB

      I give you props for reading even one of them. I probably would’ve tossed both and asked my doc or the pharmacist to just give me the cliff notes. “What do I gotta do to not die on this shit?”

      • An Actual Attorney

        My dad likes to read the PDR. He’s not a doc. He’s a PhD astrophysicist. He just reads it.

        • BeatriceC

          MrC reads them all. But he’s a PhD biophysicist.

          • An Actual Attorney

            MrC has autism right? Pretty sure my dad’s on the spectrum. Never diagnosed, but he’s an astrophysicist who reads the PDR. to relax, didn’t talk until he was 3 and then busted out with full sentences, and basically I know the man who raised me.

          • BeatriceC

            Yes. He’s autistic. Sounds like he and your dad have a lot in common. I’m not sure about his early years, but he doesn’t talk much now. When he does he either stutters his way through it or gives a mini dissertation. There’s really no in between. At the moment we are in “not talking at all” mode, mostly because I’m pissed at him for being an asshole earlier today. But what he did is completely related to his intrapersonal skills, or lack thereof, because of his autism, which had the unintended effect of causing emotional harm. This is not something he understands well. But put a drug insert in front of him and he will be an expert in ten minutes!

          • Reality022

            What BeatriceC isn’t telling you is that her husband is also wearing his pHARMaShill Decoder Ring™ so he can decipher the seekrit eevyil instructions Big Pharma has hidden in the inserts.

            I’ll bet you can hear a muffled “Nyah-ah-ahhh!” when he’s finished reading.

          • Mariana

            I read them… And have a degree in teaching. My sister is a pharmacist, she has a big book with all the inserts of all drugs sold in our country (enormous volume). I can’t stop reading it when I go visit… (Ok, I’m crazy).

            It was useful once to find a allergy medication that was listed as B risk for pregnancy… I had horrible hay-fever for a month and could barely function from lack of sleep, but my ob/gyn would not let me take my usual medication. The allergist was too scared to prescribe anything… No one seemed to care I had a 2 year old at home to keep alive as well. I found a drug, the allergist said it would world, the ob/gyn let me take 3 doses and I got much better. They gave me my usual medication as soon as I returned to the room after the csection.

          • BeatriceC

            I do occasionally read them if I get bored enough. Though usually those are times when I’m stuck on the toilet without my phone and I’ve already read all of MrC’s industry journals that month (yes, he keeps back issues on a bookshelf in the bathroom…scientists are just weird.)

      • moto_librarian

        To be fair, this has got to me the most complicated inhaler that I have ever used, and I’ve actually had to read the instructions several times. The good news is that it seems to be working as well as the much higher formulation that I was taking as part of my control regimen.

    • Clorinda

      I read them. My background is primarily history but I like to read. I read almost compulsively. But when you do read a lot, it is amazing what you can pick up. I wouldn’t treat or diagnose anybody, but I can understand the basics of the clinical trials and studies and results they list in the inserts, and I can read the percentages of adverse events/effects that actually happen. I also happen to like breathing myself so I accept a certain level of risk in order to live a normal life.

  • LaMont

    All they understand are the numbers zero and 100. That’s why they can’t parse this. Risks? Not zero! Holy shit! Efficacy? Not 100! Scam!!!!

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I assert that the vast majority of those who insist we “read the inserts” have never actually read a single insert, and have only read what someone has said about them on the internet.

    • Sean Jungian

      “Read the inserts” is just another tenet of the faith in the Antivaxx religion.

      • Roadstergal

        And much like fundamentalists in America with the Bible, few have actually read the source material rather than culled excerpts.

  • Miss Nice

    Aren’t those things also written by Big Pharma and/or the CDC (government), the two organizations that we shouldn’t trust?

    • Amy

      It’s all about SELECTIVE trust. Big Pharma and the CDC can’t be trusted when it comes to saying that vaccines and GMOs are safe and effective, but if we’re talking about lowering c-section rates, promoting breastfeeding, or looking at risks of something the crunchies don’t want to do, no matter how small those risks are, all of the sudden Big Pharma and the CDC become world-renowned experts.

      (Kind of like how doctors are morons, and don’t get sufficient training in med school on nutrition or natural remedies– certainly far less than SAHMs trolling Google, but if Jay Gordon, Aviva Romm, or anyone with the last name Sears speaks up about anything, they’re experts because– you guessed it– they’re doctors!)

      • Tokyobelle

        I agree with your sentiment, but I’ve been thinking of late about how I am guilty of citing some organizations as irrefutable, and vehemently disagreeing with some of their other stances. Admittedly, it’s a bad position. For example, this entry on Breastfeeding by the NIH (Medline is their online library https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000636.htm ) states that you will produce enough milk for your baby, but I know from my personal experience that I didn’t. This was a verified fact by my healthcare team, and at 13 hours old, at 8:30 at night the Ped on call was called in from home to convince me that I needed to give a bottle to my baby stat, as his labs were not good. I clearly was not nor did I ever go on to produce anything for my baby, but this article from the NIH says otherwise… Like I said, I realize I’m being fully hypocritical here…

        • Barzini

          your anecdotal evidence is completely worthless to those who comment here – just as worthless as a mother claiming her baby changed drastically shortly after vaccination

  • Sullivan ThePoop

    Another thing they love to go on about is that the old DTaP vaccine Tripedia listed autism and SIDS as an adverse event. If you read the entire insert instead of just the warning and adverse events you can see that in a double blind placebo controlled study in Germany the rate of SIDS was considerably less in those vaccinated with Tripedia than the background rate.