Take the Dr. Amy Anti-vax Challenge

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I don’t know about the rest of the pro-science community, but I’m getting mighty tired of anti-vaxxers swooping in to websites and Facebook pages, defecating all over them with absurd claims about the dangers of vaccines or their components, vomiting random scientific citations they haven’t even read and then declaring they’ve “proved” their claims.

Therefore, I’m offer the Dr. Amy Anti-vax Challenge.

I’m asking for the same standard of proof that any scientists would consider the minimum to support an extraordinary scientific claim.

It’s pretty simple really:

  1. Make a claim
  2. Provide 3 citations from peer review journals to support it
  3. Provide relevant quotes from the papers (not the abstracts)
  4. Situate the studies within the preponderance of the scientific evidence
  5. Explain why your citations take precedence over scientific consensus

Anti-vaxxers are desperate to be taken seriously by the rest of the world. Here’s the perfect opportunity to show that their claims have scientific merit.

If they’re truly “educated” and have done their “research,” it shouldn’t be hard at all.

I can’t wait to see what they’ve got!

  • Diet dee

    I believe that this is the answer to the challenge
    The Aluminum compounds in vaccines are a risk factor
    This presentation bybDr Suzanne humpries makes the case for it
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PWP6e2CYPo8
    It appears that the safe aluminum is based oral adult exposure.
    What about injected aluminum compounds?
    When all is injected the aluminum can be carried by macrophages to the organ were inflammation may occur. This may lead to allergies, auto immune diseases and more.
    Take your time pause video and look up the cited studies.

    • Charybdis

      Barzini already tried that one. Scroll down and peruse the comments as we aren’t going to repeat for a new posting of the same crap.

    • Nick Sanders

      I have repeatedly shown you studies on the safety of aluminum vaccines, even in infants. Please don’t post bullshit like “It appears that the safe aluminum is based oral adult exposure.”

      • Diet dee

        I have read some links but some of the detailed information is pay walked
        Such as this
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122
        It dealt with the pharmakenetics of aluminum in infants.
        If a non essential toxic metal is supposedly safe I want the details.

        • Roadstergal

          So pay for it. Something you consider so critical, and you’ll let a few bucks keep you from the real information? Better yet, go to the local university and find a PK scientist. They’ll be able to pull up the paper under their institutional subscription and walk you through it.

        • swbarnes2

          Why don’t you prove that you tried to read this paper by quoting the last two sentences of the abstract?

          Then go to a library and READ THE PAPER.

          Do you sincerely think that you know more about toxicology and pharmacokinetics than the authors of this paper?

          For instance, can you give us the high school level explanation of what this equation represents?

          R=29.3e^-0.595t + 11e^0.172t + 6.5e^-000401t

          A bit further down, the paper says “Because this set of differential equations includes a non-constant coefficient, k10(t), the exact solution is non-tractable. Therefore, we utilized numeric Runge–Kutta type methods to solve the set of differential equations numerically”

          So why don’t you start with a description of the Runge-Kutta type methods? Anyone competent to critique this paper shoudl be able to understand the math in it well enough to do that.

          When you fail to respond, we will know that your desire to intelligently address the contents of this paper are a sham.

          • Diet dee

            I’m not claiming to know more than anyone. The pay walled study was referenced in a study that Nick cited. I believe that this same study was referenced by dr humpries in the YouTube video regarding the safety of aluminum in vaccines. Are you mad because I’m trying to read the proof posted by pro Vaxxers?

          • swbarnes2

            No, we are made because you are pretending you want to read it, but aren’t actually going to, and wouldn’t believe a word it said if you did.

            The proof is that you can’t quote the abstract, which is freely available. The whole thing is freely available at a library.

          • Diet dee

            “For the general population of infants, who receive less than the maximal dose, the risk is even lower.” I found it (Googled the title rather than trying to get it via pubmed}
            I must admit that i don’t understand the math presented in the article. The interesting thing is that they didn’t want to bother testing Al on infant monkeys. Also this study was was discussed and rebutted by Dr Humphries in the video i posted start at 53:00 and listen for about 15 minutes.

          • swbarnes2

            So you didn’t read the paper, because that’s NOT the last sentence of the abstract. Everything I said about your dishonesty is now proven. If there had been primate data included, you’d be wondering why there was no rodent data.

            Do you want to show some data on the effects of diphtheria toxin in human infants? Or tetanus toxin?

            No, of course you don’t want to talk about any of that, because you are fundamentally dishonest, and your vanity trumps your concern over things that have been proven to harm children.

          • Sonja Henie

            “Do you sincerely think that you know more about toxicology and pharmacokinetics than the authors of this paper?”

            Of course she does!

          • Neil.

            Steady Sonja by bladder is about to go.

          • Ron Roy

            It always does anyway. lol

        • Michael McCarthy

          “I have read some links but some of the detailed information is pay walked
          Such as this”

          You obviously didn’t try very fracking hard to look for the entire paper, surprise. I found not one, but 2 links, simply by googling the title. Bozo.

          • Sonja Henie

            Lying liars lie lots! (dee, not you!)

          • Michael McCarthy

            Yes, they do

        • Nick Sanders

          If you don’t feel like paying for access, and I don’t blame you for that, the whole thing happens to have been posted for free here:
          http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/FDA-aluminum-paper.pdf

          Honestly a little surprised that an antivax site would undermine themselves like that, but whatever.

          • Diet dee

            Thank Nick!! When the antivaxxets rebellion happens you will be spared

          • Ron Roy

            Not by me!

    • Lolz Humphries.

    • shay simmons

      Why is there nothing in PubMed under Dr Humphries name?

    • At the risk of being redundant:
      americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html

      • Ron Roy

        This site is further proof of what I’ve been saying. Any doctor or scientist who dares tell the truth about the harm caused by vaccines risks losing his, license. job, tenure and his reputation. It take a real HERO to go against the MEDICAL MAFIA. Unfortunately there are more sheep than lions in the medical and scientific community as evidenced by those on this blog who support the MEDICAL MAFIA.

    • Wren

      Please at least try posting something new.

  • Amazed

    OK, guys, help me out here. Are you seriously answering him , explaining why the aluminium – oh gawd, neurotoxin, neurotoxin! – in vaccines isn’t deadly for newborns? For real? I’d think that for someone so enamoured with anecdoctal evidence, he’d take the anecdotal evidence of all those babies who, you know, LIVED to become toddlers, teenagers and adults seriously.

    Perhaps not anecdotal enough for him, I’ll grant you that, but why are you indulging the troll?

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m not anymore, I just told him I’m done until he puts up something of major substance.

      • Amazed

        Good for you. And no, he won’t, but I suspect you already know this.

        • Nick Sanders

          The amount of swearing involved in my declaration may have hinted at such knowledge, yes.

      • Roadstergal

        He’s just playing games with this aluminum business. He’s already made it clear that he’s against vaccinations that contain no aluminum adjuvant. So he’s just a contrarian who delights in pretending he knows more than he does.

        I posted the link to a very good study of exposure and distribution of Al in diet and vaccines in infants, and the vast margin between that and toxic levels. He won’t read it – he’ll find something in the abstract to glom onto as a reason to dismiss it.

        • Nick Sanders

          I’ve posted two studies showing that vaccines containing aluminum are safe, and he’s still asking me to give the explicitly toxic dose. When the answer to “How much is dangerous?” is “Way more than we are using.”, I don’t really understand why the exact quantity matters if there’s no plan to try to push the limit.

    • Azuran

      Honestly. I’m bored, and since I can call idiots to their faces at work, this is a good enough alternative.

      • Amazed

        OK, I can understand that. I am a little cranky and in no mood to tolerate anything, in RL or the internet. It’s my fourth day with dental brackets and damn it, it hurts. Clearly, it’ll take time for the inside of my cheeks to get the memo that those new things are here to stay.

    • Roadstergal

      I dunno, man. He still hasn’t proven to me that the aluminum in breastmilk isn’t deadly for newborns.

    • More ‘using him as a conduit to expose the nonsense for the lurkers’.

    • Linden

      I came to this thread rather late, and have come to the conclusion that Barzini is just a straight up liar and a troll. I don’t think he is a parent: parents at least express some concern for children’s well-being, even if it is the misguided, “too many too soon” flavour of concern. How many adult people in Switzerland have had no vaccines? And the nonsense with the baby and the ld100 of aluminium clinched it. He’s not a parent. Not even Brooke is that level of callous and obtuse. Troll.

      Nevertheless, I’ve learnt a few things on this thread, so thanks for your replies everybody!

      • Nick Sanders

        From what I can tell, he’s not asking for the LD100, but the exact dose at which toxic effects begin. “We start noticing markers at X and we’re at Y, which is under X” is not good enough because “there might be effects we aren’t noticing” and “that doesn’t seem like much of a margin” (don’t ask me why 62% of maximum safe amount is too close, makes me curious if he thinks going 62% of the speed limit is driving too fast). So until he knows the exact number to the nanogram, he can’t be sure it’s safe, evidence be damned.

        • swbarnes2

          My link provided a figure for the minimum risk level, as set by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, Barzini didn’t even look at it. Not even to say “Hey, this is behind a paywall, I can’t read it”. Every

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, I mentioned his double standard before. When we want info about his claims, we’re supposed to find it ourselves, without so much as a hint. We he wants info about our claims, we have to explicitly spell it out for him, a citation isn’t good enough.

          • Roadstergal

            And even when we do explicitly spell it out, he just decides we aren’t right.

        • Roadstergal

          And he wants one ‘this is the deadly level’ number. LD50 is a stupid number to him, because all organisms have identical responses at a given level.

  • Wren

    I have learned something new from this whole thing with Barzini. I knew there had once been a suspected link between aluminum and Alzheimer’s but I didn’t realise how long ago and how thoroughly it had been studied and rejected as a potential cause. This potential link has been studied since the 1960s without any evidence of causation being found. That’s a significant amount of time. There may be a few researchers still trying to find evidence of this link, but Alzheimer’s

    • Barzini

      Yeah, and remember, there’s aluminium in breast milk (20000 times less) – so that makes it all OK

      • Roadstergal

        I’m still interested in how Switzerland, with its low uptake of the MMR vaccine, has some of the highest AD rates in Europe.

        OMG, I just figured it out. Barzini is in Switzerland. Switzerland is the headquarters of Roche. Roche makes Tamiflu and has some more anti-flu drugs in the pipeline, all of which are WAY more expensive than a flu shot. Also, they have a few (very expensive) drugs approved for cervical cancer, which you can reduce the risk of with the HPV vaccine. Of course Barzini is anti-vax! He gets that sweet pharma CHF!

      • Heidi

        But you are taking your children to get the MMR, right? No aluminum adjuvant in it. You’ve been told this a week or two ago.

        • Barzini

          No, personally we avoid all vaccinations – I was never vaccinated either

          But I’m not telling other people to do that, or arguing that opposition on this site – purely a personal thing based on anecdotal evidence which I agree shouldn’t be used at sites like this one

          • Roadstergal

            “based on anecdotal evidence which I agree shouldn’t be used”
            Ah, if only you had stopped right there.

            Hey, are you going to send some money to CA to help pay for that expensive outbreak your ‘personal thing’ helped cause?

          • Barzini

            No – I won’t be doing that

          • Roadstergal

            Well, that’s pretty lame of you, but that’s to be expected.
            Noticed you still haven’t addressed the disconnect between your avoidance of those horrid toxic vaccines, and the fact that you’re not seeing the fruit in the form of elimination of AD. Or even a reduction to the level of the European average.

          • Barzini

            I guess we would have to do a study into health outcomes between children who have never been vaccinated and those who have followed the recommended schedule

            Shame such studies don’t exist

          • Azuran

            If you think that making a study comparing ‘health’ between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids is something that is doable and would have valid results, you are an even bigger idiot than I thought.
            There are probably hundreds of different parameters that define health. You can’t make 1 study about ‘health’. There are just too many confounding variable.

            But you are just grasping at straw and asking for the impossible because you have nothing and will simply never accept that vaccine are safe and effective. How about YOU show some actual evidence that vaccination has a negative health impact on society in general?

          • Barzini

            I don’t have the money or expertise to do such a study, the government does

          • Azuran

            And they have done many. And came back with the conclusion that vaccines are extremely safe, very effective and saves thousands of life every year.

          • Barzini

            I’d love to have the links to these studies

          • Azuran

            Come on, we both know you wouldn’t even read them. You already admitted that you are not vaccinated out of feelings.
            Just go look at basically every single study out there about vaccines. There are thousands of those.
            You could start by the ones people have been linking to you those past 10 days.

          • Roadstergal

            Studies exist looking at all manner of specific health outcomes between decently matched vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. Vaccinated children consistently come out equal or better.

            What I’m asking you is:
            -You postulate that the MMR vaccine contains toxic components that are a substantial contributor to AD.
            -Given that, Switzerland, with its low MMR uptake that you brag about, should have very low to no AD to make up for the increased measles infections.
            -So why does Switzerland have so much AD, if your postulates are correct?

          • Barzini

            I’ve never postulated anything about the MMR

            You’re just making stuff up now

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, you did, luv. You kept bringing up your mistaken beliefs in the other thread about how AD is caused by aluminum (even though it isn’t), and that the enlightened Swiss choose not to expose their kids to the aluminum in the MMR (even though there’s none in there).

          • Barzini

            There’s no aluminium in the MMR – I’ve known that for years

            You’re making stuff up

            Most Swiss people choose to vaccinate with the MMR, but coverage is lower than in most (maybe all?) Western countries

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            nice abstract

          • Nick Sanders

            You said such studies don’t exist. Clearly they do.

          • Barzini

            How do I see the study

            Where the non vaccinated children completely unvaccinated ? Or only unvaccinated for those vaccines?

            Did they look at things like chronic disease, autism etc?

            genuine questions

          • Sonja Henie

            And round and round we go again, Marco!

          • Barzini

            he’s given you an abstract – and you’re happy

            You have no idea what the safety level is for injection of aluminum in a new born baby – and you don’t seem to care

            Are you seriously a nurse?

          • Sonja Henie

            Who says I have “no idea”? Just like that lie you told about me last night, that I compared breast feeding to vaccination, when in point of fact, I’m a little late to that party, I have said NOTHING about the safety level of AL for a newborn.

          • Azuran

            Autism? ffs that horse is long dead buddy.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “How do I see the study”
            have you heard of Google?

          • Nick Sanders

            He doesn’t even need to do that, he just has to click on the link in the upper right of the page.

            And pony up $40 for 1 day access, but that’s not my problem. I aimed to prove the study existed, not use it to prove health outcomes, at least in this particular instance.

          • Wren

            It’s not like he even bothered to read the study Jonathan linked for him a bit ago. That literally took just clicking the link but was too much bother.

          • Michael McCarthy

            Well, I suggested Google because that paper is available for free, but I get where you are coming from.
            Unrelated, but I think Dr. Tuteur needs to do the world a favor and show him the door. This thread has become a nightmare because of 1 user.

          • Nick Sanders

            It is? Can I ask where, because that would be very useful for me.

          • Michael McCarthy
          • Sonja Henie

            None of your questions are genuine, Marco. See that’s the problem with all this playing dumb, obtuse, etc. Some of us just don’t believe you any more when you say you’re being sincere.

          • Barzini

            I don’t get the Marco thing

          • Azuran

            It’s ok. you don’t really get much anyway.

          • Barzini

            I get that you have no idea what the safe limit for injecting aluminum into a one day baby is

          • Azuran

            Because it’s not something that we need to determine that something is safe.
            We know vaccines are safe. We don’t need to know how many dozens of vaccines we can give on a newborn. They get 1, and we know that’s safe.

          • Sonja Henie

            http://www.politico.com/blogs/new-hampshire-primary-2016-live-updates/2016/02/republican-debate-marco-rubio-obama-knows-what-hes-doing-218877
            ” Marco Rubio went into repetition mode during Saturday night’s debate, going back to the same line over and over again to defend against comparisons to Barack Obama.

            “Let’s dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing,” the Florida
            senator said. “He knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s trying to change this country.”

            Rubio would go on to reiterate that argument, nearly word-for-word, several times over the course of a single exchangewith Chris Christie, who said that Rubio’s inexperience mirrored
            Obama’s. “This notion that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing…” Rubio continued again before Christie interjected to accuse Rubio of being overly scripted.

            You repeat over and over, “neruotoxins”, “injecting babies with . . . “, “aluminum”, etc, etc. It didn’t work for Marco, and it’s not working for you.

          • Sonja Henie

            You know, Marco, we have plenty of information on the health outcomes of kids who weren’t vaccinated. We know they DIED of vaccine-preventable diseases at a way higher level than vaccinated kids. We know they have as much autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            What did you expect, he’s a victim blamer.

          • Azuran

            So, after all this, you come out as being an anti-vaxxer just ‘because’.

          • Sonja Henie

            Same as most of them, really.

          • MaineJen

            Of course you do.

          • Barzini

            well yeah

          • Jonathan Graham

            purely a personal thing based on anecdotal evidence which I agree shouldn’t be used at sites like this one

            …or even in your own life.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, I’ll think it over once you get back to me with what the safe injection limit for aluminium is in a new born baby on its first day of life

            I presume you know

          • Jonathan Graham

            What does that have to do with your own irrationality?

          • Barzini

            I’d like to know the safe limit for injecting aluminum into a new born baby before injecting aluminum into a new born baby – call me crazy, but that’s the way I role

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well what I’m saying is that you claim you have anecdotal information which you are allowing to change your actions. That’s kind of the definition of irrational.

            Probably around 400 mcg is acceptable if we are talking about cognitive function.

          • Barzini

            Where’d you get the (probable) 400 mcg limit from?

            This is exactly what I want to know?

          • Jonathan Graham

            There was a study[1] done on IV hydration for VLW infants comparing standard solutions (25 mcg/dl) and Al depleted solutions. They compared cognitive outcomes at corrected post-term age of 18 months. Doses of ten days had comparable neurological outcomes, greater than ten days had reduced neurological outcomes.

            In ten days a child would have had VLW child would have had close to 400mcg. Considering that VLW children are a population at risk of having reduced neurological development. It’s reasonable to consider that an upper bound for normal weight children.

            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Barzini

            OMG

            That’s it, seriously

            You are comparing a hydration solution (with only 0.5% of aluminium being absorbed), with injecting a new born baby

            This is insane, this is why you are sure it’s OK to inject 250mcg of aluminium into a new born baby?

            And you call yourself a proponent of science based medicine

          • Jonathan Graham

            You are comparing a hydration solution (with only 0.5% of aluminium being absorbed), with injecting a new born baby

            It’s intravenous hydration. That’s what the IV part means. Same as being injected – well an IM injection probably has slower release. So this is probably “worse” in that you are getting more, more quickly.

            This is insane, this is why you are sure it’s OK to inject 250mcg of aluminium into a new born baby?

            Because at-risk children can take twice as much without risk of lowered neurological outcomes.

            And you call yourself a proponent of science based medicine

            I’m someone who can do the math yes.

          • Barzini

            Missed the IV part…..

            Do you really think this study (involving 10 days of an IV solution) is what should be used to justify injecting 250mcg into a new born baby on its first day of life?

            250mcg is 63% of 400mcg – a limit above which children started showing signs of neurological damage

            I imagine mcg per kg is highly important – well the weight is obviously lowest in the first day

            Are we not cutting things a bit fine here? We are also not exactly comparing apples with apples…

            What surprises me even more is how hard you are having to work to prove this

            Why is there not ample proof at your finger tips? I mean this is pretty damned important and a common question….

          • Jonathan Graham

            Do you really think this study (involving 10 days of an IV solution)

            It would help if you read the study. It didn’t involve 10 days – it looked at all the durations in the sample. Those having ten or less days of exposure showed equivalent neurological outcomes at 18 months to those without any exposure.

            is what should be used

            It’s not what is being used, you asked for a value and I assumed you wanted an evidence based one. I rather suspect that people who formulate vaccines use other modeling techniques.

            250mcg is 63% of 400mcg – a limit above which children started showing signs of neurological damage

            Nope. 400mcg is the value I gave as a limit. It’s not a threshold beyond which children showed signs of neurological damage. Children who are already at a significantly elevated risk of reduced cognitive outcomes showed comparable cognitive outcomes at exposures less than 450mcg to those who had background exposure. If you were to adjust for birth weight the average child would be closer to 850mcg.

            Are we not cutting things a bit fine here?

            Nope. At-risk populations are often used as boundary cases in medical studies.

            And also not exactly comparing apples with apples?

            You asked for an injected dose of aluminum. I gave it to you.

          • Sonja Henie

            The hydration fluid, genius, is often given parenterally.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Specifically, in this case is was IV. Pretty comparable to IM.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “You are comparing a hydration solution (with only 0.5% of aluminium being absorbed), with injecting a new born baby”
            hey fücktard. Why would you presume that only 0.5% of an IV solution Al would be absorbed?

          • Sonja Henie

            Because he’s stupid. And Marco/Barzini should know better than to argue with Jonathan about math.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “And Marco/Barzini should know better than to argue with Jonathan about math.”
            should know better. Then again, this is the person that has been arguing for over a week about the “safe dose of Al to be injected into a newborn baby” despite being told that there is no Al and compounds are not elements.

          • Nick Sanders

            Out of curiosity, why do you call him “Marco”?

          • Sonja Henie

            LOL! I explained this once, but knowing Disqus, you probably didn’t see it. Remember the Republican presidential candidates debate when Marco Rubio kept saying “Barack Obama knows exactly what he’s doing” over and over, and it bombed with the public?

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh! I thought it had to do with the game of Marco Polo he has us playing.

          • Sonja Henie

            That could be another alternative.

          • Jonathan Graham

            What would “absorbed” even mean in that context? Absorbed where? It’s in your veins man! 🙂

          • Michael McCarthy

            Yeah, I don’t know where he was going with that. I assume he lived under the false pretense that a hydration solution was administered orally.

          • Jonathan Graham

            If I had a nickle for every time some nutter didn’t read the study…

          • Michael McCarthy

            well, nickels don’t go very far. How about $1? The sad part it he didn’t have to read the study to know it was IV, it’s right there in the title.

          • Wren

            There are enough of them he could probably make a tidy sum just from nickels. Especially if he gets one each time Barzini claims something that clearly is wrong while citing a study he failed to read.

          • Michael McCarthy

            You’d need 20 nickels just to buy a lotto ticket. (of course, your odds of winning on that ticket are far greater than Barzini grasping any concept which has been presented)

          • Wren

            Yeah, but Barzini must’ve earned him well over that by now.

          • Michael McCarthy

            I don’t know about Barzini, but he’s probably earned a few bucks from Ron Roy and Lowell Hubbs.

          • Barzini

            didn’t realize it was IV, fair enough

            so what’s the safety limit? around 400mcg?

          • corblimeybot

            “IV’ is in the first line of his comment.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “didn’t realize it was IV”
            I guess you can’t fucking read. It is in the title of the paper, moron.
            “ALUMINUM NEUROTOXICITY IN PRETERM INFANTS RECEIVING
            INTRAVENOUS-FEEDING SOLUTIONS”

          • Barzini

            So what’s the safety limit in your opinion ?

            Do you have an opinion now?

          • Michael McCarthy

            I’d say read the paper, or read what Jonathan wrote, but as we’ve established you can’t fucking read.

          • Sonja Henie

            Maybe someone can read it to him.

          • Michael McCarthy

            I’m not even sure that would help.

          • Azuran

            So, You give absolutely nothing to your babies unless you know the absolute lethal dose to a newborn?
            You do realize that NO ONE tests lethal doses in newborn right?
            Those are extrapolated from animals, adults, children and accidental overdose.
            We don’t know the exact lethal dose or the upper safe limit of a LOT of medication out there. What is really important is that we know the therapeutic window and know that there is a relative safe zone around it to prevent accidental intoxication. We don’t purposely kill people to figure out exactly what dose is lethal.

          • Barzini

            What are the limits of the window?

          • Azuran

            Therapeutic window has nothing to do with toxicity BTW. But for aluminum, the window at which it is accepted in any form of medication is 0.125 and 0.85 mg. Vaccines call in the lower interval of this.

          • Who?

            You are crazy.

            I hope when you have responsibility for another human life you are more thoughtful about it than your behaviour here indicates. Since you are so safety conscious I assume the child will never be put into a motor vehicle, which carries with it a clear and immediate risk of death and injury every time you do it. A risk of death and injury far greater than vaccines. I take it The Pregnant One doesn’t travel by car either. Why would you risk it?

            Or are cars just sooo convenient-how else do you show off to your friends and neighbours, and get to the health food shop across town where you can buy the speshul natcheral snowflake food for yourselves, to keep you healthy?

            At least the little one will have half your genes-assuming your partner is playing nicely-so he/she will have some chance of ‘getting’ you and your freeloading ways.

          • Azuran

            Are you a new born baby on it’s first day of life? If not, then there is no problem with you getting your shots.

          • Barzini

            We will hope fully have just such a baby in a little over 5 months time

          • Azuran

            And you think your little snowflakes is different than the milions of other baby who got the hep B and didn’t suffer any aluminum related reaction?
            What if your baby needs an NICU stay, are you going to refuse all treatment because we don’t know the exact dose at which all his medications are going to be lethal to a newborn?

          • Barzini

            Two completely different things

            The fact that many countries don’t give hep b vaccines to new born babies illustrates that perfectly

          • Azuran

            The fact that they don’t give it is not a sign that they consider it dangerous. Nor does it prove anything regarding aluminum

          • Barzini

            It’s obviously a sign that they don’t consider it to be that important

          • Azuran

            Maybe it’s less prevalent in their country. We have already discussed how different country have different population and different diseases to control.

          • Barzini

            cool story bro

          • Azuran

            you are really science illiterate is basically everything arent you.

          • Wren

            The US does not give BCG. The UK does for certain populations where the risk is higher. Is that because the US isn’t concerned about TB? No! It’s because they consider the risk in the US.

            The UK gives Hep B at birth to babies at higher risk. It just isn’t on the routine schedule because most babies in the UK are not at particularly high risk and the NHS prefers not to spend unnecessarily.

          • Sonja Henie

            I was thinking the exact same thing about BCG. The US and the Netherlands are the only two countries in the world that have never used BCG, even on at-risk groups. It may be used on a very individual basis here in the US.

          • Wren

            It would have made moving to the UK easier. Instead I had to prove, at Heathrow Airport, that I did not in fact have TB. An x-ray at the airport was a strange thing, especially while my new British husband was waiting for me. Personally, I think it is ridiculous as I had spent most of the previous 2 years in the UK without having to do that, but it was required so I did.

          • Sonja Henie

            You wouldn’t want one of those ugly scars! I know a smallpox vaccine scar isn’t considered unattractive here, but those BCG scars get all keloid-y.

          • Barzini

            I totally agree

            My point is that anyone deciding to not give the hep B vaccination to a newborn baby can hardly be accused of being a loon

          • Wren

            That depends on the risk of the baby being exposed to Hep B. If the mother is positive, then yes, not giving it would be on the loony side.

          • Barzini

            Yes, but not recommending it in general is fine for many countries

          • Wren

            Each country weighs the benefits for its own population, considering endemic diseases, travel patterns bringing in new diseases and costs of treatment and vaccination.

          • Barzini

            By the way, one of the pro vaxer posters here believes any level above 400mcg of aluminum is dangerous and could start to cause neurological problems – and that’s for much older babies and over a period of 10 days

            So this 250mcg number is really starting to scare me

          • Jonathan Graham

            Awww it’s so cute when you’re outed as an idiot. You asked for a limit below which it is safe. I gave you that and the study that supports it.

          • Wren

            No it isn’t for older babies! It is for premature, very low weight babies.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “and that’s for much older babies and over a period of 10 days”
            Is lying your second tongue? Since when are “pre-term infants” much older?

          • Azuran

            That depends on why you refuse. If it’s based on aluminum, then yes, you are a loon.
            But then again, you already said that you didn’t give any vaccine, even those without aluminum. Making you a loon anyway.

          • Sonja Henie

            Two completely different things my derriere! What’s in an injection of prednisone, or whatever steroid they use on NBs in teh NICU? How about Lasix? Those are only a couple that I can think of that this kid got.

          • Wren

            Every country gives some new borns Hep B. It just isn’t on the routine schedule in every country. If the mother is Hep B positive, the vaccine will be given. If another member of the household is Hep B positive, the vaccine will be given.

          • Barzini

            Every country ‘sometimes’ gives the hep B to a new born baby – many countries rarely give it

          • Wren

            It is given when the risk is seen as high enough to make it worthwhile. In some countries, that is rare. In some areas of those countries, it may still be common. In the US (where you do not live anyway), the decision was taken to put it on the routine schedule as the risk was felt to be high enough.

          • Sonja Henie

            Gosh, yes! My friend has a baby in the NICU. He’s doing better now, about 6 weeks old, but he was getting all kinds of meds at first, including. . steroids!

          • Sonja Henie

            That’s nice.

          • Nick Sanders

            I feel rather sorry for the baby.

          • Nick Sanders

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/skepticalob/take_the_dr_amy_anti_vax_challenge/#comment-2888513840

            For specific Ld50’s for vaccine adjuvants, I’m having trouble getting precise numbers. Aluminum hydroxide is a commonly used one, with an LD50 of 1100mg/kg for Intraperitoneal injection and >5000 mg/kg for oral administration, so intramuscular injection would be somewhere between the two. My guess would be around 3000-4000 mg/kg. With an an average birthweight of 3.5 kg, that would be 10.5 to 14 grams to have an LD50 dose. Obviously, you’d want much lower than that, but the amount in vaccine doses is between 0.125 and 0.85 mg. So even the most “aluminum heavy” vaccine is about 1/12353rd the lower limit of the LD50. Which means, even if for safety you wanted only 0.1% of the threshold, it would be less than a tenth of that upper cap.

          • Barzini

            LD50 is the dose at which 50% of people die

            I’m talking about the safe dose – the dose at which a doctor will not go over

            I presume you know but have been keeping it a secret

            Also, only 0.5% of orally consumed aluminium is even absorbed – so divide by 200

          • MaineJen

            He literally just told you.

          • Barzini

            LD50 is the dose at which 50% of people die

            Are you saying that the safe dose is something a lot less than the LD50?

            Also, only 0.5% of aluminium is absorbed by the GI tract when consumed orally

            100% is absorbed when injected

          • Azuran

            still doesn’t matter when the 100% is still lower than the lethal dose.

          • Barzini

            Only 0.5% of orally consumed aluminum is absorbed

            I cannot believe you are using the LD50 rate – it actually beggars belief

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            What world do you live in where LD50 testing is performed on people? I don’t think I want to visit it.

          • Azuran

            He is still asking for the dose at which aluminum is lethal, despite me pointing out multiple time that finding it would require killing a baby. He doesn’t seem to mind.

          • swbarnes2

            If you’d read my link, you’d know that was a lie. Al is not instantaneously and completely absorbed when injectetd. It’s a bald-faced lie. You chose to lie because you don’t understand the difference between truth and falsehood. You are fundamentally dishonest, you literally don’t understand the concept of not making things up. Every single post you make without having read my peer-reviewed link with all the answers so your questions proves that you are incurably dishonest.

          • Nick Sanders

            Which is why I said that if you wanted to stay at 1/1000th of the number at which 50% of people die, you’d still be less than a 10th of the maximum amount with the most “aluminum heavy” vaccine.

          • Barzini

            Did you divide by 200 to account for the fact that only 0.5% of orally ingested aluminum is absorbed

            You do realize that the death rate and the injury rate of toxic substances are wildly different things?

          • Nick Sanders

            That doesn’t fucking matter, because I estimate the LD50 for intramuscularly injected aluminum, and used that for the calculations.

            Meanwhile, I’m done. Until you actually prove there is some sort of fucking harm from aluminum as it is currently used, you get nothing more. It has been demonstrated over and over that current usage is safe, in several different ways, yet you keep claiming “neurotoxin neurotoxin!”. Lay down some fucking proof, damn you, or shut the hell up. And no, speculative research about a possible Alzheimer’s link is not proof. I want rock fucking solid demonstrated causation of some sort of concrete harm, and nothing fucking less. I’m tired as hell of your shitty fucking runaround, asswipe.

          • Barzini

            I want proof that you know what the safety limit dosage is for injection of aluminum into a new born baby – not some garbage based on the LD50 limit

            I don’t think that’s some crazy demand

            Look’s like you’re right, we should end this now

          • Azuran

            You don’t think that killing baby is crazy?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            lethal dose are calculated in LD50 you dumbass.

          • Barzini

            We aren’t talking about the lethal dose

          • Azuran

            And NO ONE calculates the maximum dose that you can give to someone without risking killing it. It’s not something that is calculated in toxicology.

          • Wren

            LD50 is how the safe dose is determined.

            And if you’re gonna get picky, orally consumed aluminium absorption varies by compound. It can be up to 5%, and potentially higher depending on other contents of the stomach.

          • Nick Sanders

            You do not divide by 200. That’s absurd. I listed the oral LD50 dose.

          • Barzini

            That’s the dose at which 50% of people die

            We’re interested in the limit at which neurological damage starts to occur in a one day old baby

            These are two wildly different things

          • Nick Sanders

            So? You have yet to provide any evidence such harm is occurring.

          • Barzini

            Do you accept that such harm will start occurring at a certain level?

          • Azuran

            As we said from the start: At some level, yea, EVERYTHING is toxic at some level.
            But as far as aluminum goes, it’s not something that has been seen to happen with the curent dosage. So, not a valid reason to object vaccination.

          • Barzini

            There’s quite a big difference between water toxicity and aluminum toxicity

            Sure, everything is lethal at a certain dose, but no one is adding drops of water to neurones in petri dishes to see if damage occurs

            We know for an absolute fact that aluminum can cause neurone damage

            So knowing what the safe limit (or if there even is a safe limit, how do you study if there was a tiny bit of neurone damage?) is for aluminum would be very very nice to have

          • Azuran

            And lets say you eventually have the number? What do you do with it?
            We already know that the levels in vaccines are safe. So the vaccines would not change, nor would any other medication, because they are all safe.

          • Roadstergal

            Adding drops of water to neurons in a dish will absolutely kill them in short order.

          • Azuran

            And even IV water can absolutely lead to serious brain damage.

          • Roadstergal

            Ouch, what sadist would put straight water in an IV?

          • Azuran

            Probably barzini. After all, he need to know the precice lethal dose of water in order to allow his kids to drink it.

          • Roadstergal

            Hey, water can cross the blood-brain barrier.

          • Barzini

            As far as I know, there’s no research being carried out between a link between water content in vaccines and brain disorders like alzheimers – I think you get what I’m saying even if you disagree

            We know aluminum causes neurological damage – so the question is what is the limit for a one day old baby ?

            Is 250 mcg nothing to worry about

            In another study talked about on this thread, an amount at somewhere over 400mcg caused ‘observable’ damage in premature babies

            Well at least that’s something

            I would like to have a limit for a regular one day old baby

          • Roadstergal

            It’s not a matter of opinion. The AD/Al connection has been debunked.

            Given that 400micrograms was shown to have no negative effects – ‘nothing to worry about’ – in premature babies, 250 in term babies is hardly on my radar.

            With all this time you spent typing, you could take a moment to read the paper I posted three times over.

            I know that three times probably doesn’t help if you don’t know PK and modeling. But if you won’t trust those who do, go take some classes. You’ll need some more basic biology and chemistry – your bio and chem is demonstrably weak – and then advanced courses in tox and PK.

            Until you have that, go with the experts..

          • Barzini

            At a level somewhere over 400mcg observable neurological damage started to occur in pre-term babies

            Therefore, 250mcg should be fine in a new born baby

            That’s one risk I won’t be taking – but you go ahead

          • Roadstergal

            There’s a certain level of skull compression that causes severe neurological damage in neonates.

            Until you can prove to me where that limit is, I’m not going to support vaginal births.

          • Barzini

            You do what you want

            I’m not injecting a 250mcg dose of aluminum into a new born baby

          • Roadstergal

            You don’t have to. Trained HCP administer vaccines.

            And you are, of course, in full support of all of the vaccines that don’t have Al adjuvants?

          • Barzini

            Nope, but we’re talking about this just now

            Ain’t no trained HCP giving my one day old baby the Hep B vaccine either unless he/she can provide some evidence about what the safety limit is and that no neurological damage will occur

          • Roadstergal

            So you’re just a blowhard who is being disingenuous and getting his kicks out of arguing on the Internet in the ‘No, _you’re_ toxic!’ toddler model.

            We’re saying it’s safe for you to stand in 1 foot of water when it’s clearly been shown that standing in 2 feet of water won’t drown you. If you’re convinced that 1 foot of water can somehow reach up to your nose when 2 feet didn’t, that’s an interesting reality.

            Especially when 1 foot of water is all it takes to keep the predators away.

          • Barzini

            So in this study, aluminum caused neurological damage in pre-term babies
            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

            The damage occurred at a level of somewhere above 400mcg

            This was observable behavior damage, I’d also be interested in studying if other less obvious damage occured

            Nevertheless, the feeling is that 400mcg should be fine for normal babies

            Is that seriously the logic we are using? And that’s one fine margin of error seeing as the HepB contains 250mcg

            You go ahead and take that chance, I won’t bother

          • Charybdis

            This is all a moot point for you, since you didn’t vax your kids and aren’t vaxxed yourself. You don’t believe in vaccination and are just moving heaven and earth to try and get someone to listen to your “concerns” about aluminum adjuvants.

          • Wren

            And when my child had a fever I gave paracetamol at a recommended dose even though high doses cause damage and can be fatal.

            Gee, it’s almost like the concentration/amount matters, rather than just what the substance is.

          • Azuran

            The ‘risk’ has already been taken by millions of newborn. And they suffered no reaction from aluminum.

          • Nick Sanders

            We know for an absolute fact that aluminum can cause neurone damage

            Prove it.

          • Barzini

            This study showed ‘observable’ neurological damage in premature babies exposed to a limit of somewhere above 400mcg

            Conclusion: In preterm infants, prolonged intravenous feeding with solutions containing aluminum is associated with impaired neurological development

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Nick Sanders

            Provide evidence that harm is occurring at the present level.

          • Barzini

            Do we test for that? No we don’t…..

            I know aluminum is a neurtoxin, but I don’t know at what point is starts causing damage due to a lack of tests

            Here is one study that recorded observable neurological damage caused by aluminum among pre-term babies

            Conclusion: In preterm infants, prolonged intravenous feeding with solutions containing aluminum is associated with impaired neurological development

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Nick Sanders

            Vaccinations are not prolonged intravenous feeding. Provide evidence that the current levels are causing harm.

          • Barzini

            I’ve provided evidence that aluminum causes neurological damage in babies

            I would now like to know what the safety limit is a regular one day old baby

            Hardly the request of a crazy person

            I wish we had such tests

          • Nick Sanders

            You haven’t so much as skimmed that link, have you? It utterly refutes your claims in multiple places.

          • swbarnes2

            This paper shows that babies who got the aluminum depleted fluids were more likely to have neuromotor problems. You would know that if you read it. It’s there in black and white, table 4.

            But you didn’t read it, because you are dishonest.

            And honest person would also note that Tetanus toxin is also a neurotoxin, but you seem to be fine with babies have as much of that as they can stand if they get infected with tetanus.

          • Wren

            Have you finally read the study?

            Doesn’t say what you kept claiming, does it?

            It does, however, say that whether the aluminum (given to premature babies of low birth weights at a relatively high dose over at least 10 days) will cause long term effects on intelligence is unknown. You did read that part, right?

          • Barzini

            as long as the damage isn’t long term we should just relax?

          • Wren

            Nope. But we can certainly relax at levels lower than damage being seen.

            Oh wait, you can’t, can you, because you believe some secret damage is being done and not seen on any tests at the time or 18 months later. In fact, damage has been done for the last 70 plus years that aluminum has been used in vaccines and we just haven’t been able to detect it yet.

            Of course, that is why you cannot vaccinate. And some other bogus reason is why you cannot vaccinate with any vaccine that does not contain aluminum. But you are not an antivaxer. Nope. Not you. You are just joining your buddies Sears and Wakefield in calling for safe vaccines, right?

          • Wren

            So, did you read the study?

            Did you realise you were completely wrong before about what it said?

          • Wren

            There is an established safe level. It is well above that of the Hep B vaccine.

            And using “first day of life” is nicely emotional, but you do realise that babies are not all equally developed at birth. Barring a close relative with Hep B (like the mother), micro-premies would not be vaccinated. Those healthy full term babies? Go for it.

          • Barzini

            What is the safety level?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’ve already shut you down on this one Barzini. Why are you continuing to feign ignorance?

          • Barzini

            Is it 400mcg? in your opinion?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Define “it”?

          • Barzini

            400mcg limit?

            based on a study over 10 days on much older children?

            as opposed to one-off vaccination on a new born baby?

            you aren’t filling me with confidence

          • Jonathan Graham

            based on a study over 10 days

            Nope, read the study.

            on much older children

            Nope. In fact these children were about half the birth weight of your average newborn.

            as opposed to one-off vaccination on a new born baby?

            Which would be a lower risk.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, I need to read the study

            So what’s the safety limit then?

            400mcg? So if a baby accidentally received the Hep B twice it could be bad news?

            Should there not be better studies to base this all on?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Should there not be better studies to base this all on?

            You have a study which shows that a level much higher than the one you are pretending to be afraid of. Shows no difference in neurological outcomes.

            I guess you’re just sore that you were shut down so hard.

          • Wren

            Read the danged study!

          • Wren

            How many people need to give you a number?

          • Barzini

            I’ve been given a number once by Jonathan Graham

            He linked to a study which suggested a number of 400mcg – above which neurological problems started

            This was for much older babies over a period of 10 days

            The Hep B vaccine gives 250mcg in one dose to a baby in its first day of life

            I’m actually even more scared of the HEP B vaccine than I was a few hours ago

          • Jonathan Graham

            400mcg – above which neurological problems started

            Nope. It was a limit below which there were no indications of a difference between two groups of high risk infants. One with no injected aluminum.

          • Wren

            No it wasn’t!

            It was for much smaller, premature babies who were born at less than 34 weeks gestation. This meant they were not fully developed and weighed less than half what an average new born baby weighs.

            Please, please try reading the links you are given. That information was literally in the first few sentences.

          • Enjoy freeloading off the responsible portion of society.We’re the ones keeping you and your special snowflakes safe.

          • Barzini

            You’re also the ones injecting new born babies with 250mcg of aluminium – gee thanks

          • Does your self-proclaimed lack of expertise include the high school chemistry-level explanation of compounds vs elements?

          • Barzini

            oh look, a huge straw man

          • Azuran

            Almost as huge as your aluminum lethal dose in newborn

          • Barzini

            A number which you have admitted to not knowning

          • Azuran

            Are you ready to kill your baby to find out?
            Because we won’t know until someone dies for the answer

          • Barzini

            Hep B isn’t given to new born babies in many countries – I guess they are all loons also

          • Azuran

            You didn’t answer the question. If you want to know, you need to kill a baby. are you ready to do so. Or are you going to concede that it is absolutely unacceptable to do so.

          • Roadstergal

            Perinatal infection is 4% of total infections, but 24% of chronic infections. Birth is the worst time to get HepB, childhood second-worst (4% total, 12% chronic). But this is all just the noise of the teacher from Peanuts, to you. “Aluminum!” “Blood-brain barrier!” Terms you don’t really understand, but clutch like talismans.

          • Charybdis

            LABORATORY ANIMALS: Chronic Exposure or Carcinogenicity/ Aluminium hydroxide was not carcinogenic after daily ip administration to mice for 4 months at dosages up to about 200 mg aluminium/kg/day.
            [Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives; WHO Food Additives Ser 24: Aluminum (1989). Available from, as of June 4, 2004: http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v024je07.htm **PEER REVIEWED**

            LABORATORY ANIMALS: Chronic Exposure or Carcinogenicity/ Aluminium hydroxide and aluminium phosphate have been widely used as vaccine adjuvants with a good safety record for several decades. The recent observation in human deltoid muscle of macrophage aggregates containing aluminium hydroxide spicules and termed Macrophagic Myofasciitis (MMF) has encouraged research on aluminium salts. This study was conducted in order to further investigate the clearance of aluminium at the vaccine injection site and the features of induced histopathological lesions. Two groups of 12 monkeys were immunised in the quadriceps muscle with Diphtheria-Tetanus vaccines, which were adjuvanted with either aluminium hydroxide or aluminium phosphate. Three, six or twelve months after vaccination, four monkeys from each group were sacrificed and histopathological examination and aluminium assays were performed on quadriceps muscle sections. Histopathological lesions, similar to the MMF described in humans, were observed and were still present 3 months after aluminium phosphate and 12 months after aluminium hydroxide adjuvanted vaccine administration. An increase in aluminium concentration, more marked in the area of the lesions, was also observed at the 3- and 6-month time points. These findings were localised at the injection site and no similar changes were observed in the distal or proximal muscle fragments. /Investigators/ conclude from this study that aluminium adjuvanted vaccines administered by the intramuscular route trigger histopathological changes restricted to the area around the injection site which persist for several months but are not associated with abnormal clinical signs.
            [Verdier F et al; Vaccine. 23 (11): 1359-67 (2005)] **PEER REVIEWED** PubMed Abstract
            LD50 Rat ip 1100 mg/kg bw
            [Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives; WHO Food Additives Ser 24: Aluminum (1989). Available from, as of June 4, 2004: http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v024je07.htm **PEER REVIEWED**

            LD50 Rat oral >5000 mg/kg bw
            [European Chemicals Bureau; IUCLID Dataset, Aluminum hydroxide (21645-51-2) (2000 CD-ROM edition). Available from, as of June 15, 2004: http://esis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/ **PEER REVIEWED**

            Dietary aluminum intake is normally about 3 to 25 mg daily, of which about 15 ug or about 0.1% is absorbed. However, about 0.1 to 0.5 mg of the cation may be absorbed from a standard daily dose of an aluminum-containing antacid. In persons with normal renal function, this leads to about a doubling of the average concentration of aluminum in plasma, which is normally 5 to 20 ug/L ; however, in some persons it may be increased tenfold. Aluminum is eliminated in the urine, and the renal clearance has been estimated to be 5.6 mL in persons with normal renal function. Plasma concentrations rise in renal failure, and values in excess of 300 ug/L have been reported. The accumulation of aluminum may not be simply the result of a decreased glomerular filtration; uremic patients often have hyperparathyroidism, and parathyroid hormone has been shown to increase aluminum absorption in rats. /Aluminum-containing antacids/
            [Gilman, A.G., L.S.Goodman, and A. Gilman. (eds.). Goodman and Gilman’s The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics. 7th ed. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., 1985., p. 982] **PEER REVIEWED**
            The rate of excretion /of aluminum/ in the urine is assumed to be 20-50 ug/day, which equals intestinal absorption. Administration of 2.29 g aluminum hydroxide raised excretion from 16-300 ug/day.
            [Rom, W.N. (ed.). Environmental and Occupational Medicine. 2nd ed. Boston, MA: Little, Brown and Company, 1992., p. 466] **PEER REVIEWED**

            Two male volunteers administered a single dose of (26)Al-labeled aluminum citrate (aqueous solution) or aluminum hydroxide (colloidal suspension in water) directly to the stomach using a pediatric feeding tube; there was a 3-week interval between dosing. These forms of aluminum were used because it was suspected that they would be either relatively bioavailable (citrate) or relatively nonbioavailable (hydroxide). Based on analyses of (26)Al in the blood (collected at 1, 4, and 24 hours after dosing) and excreta (urine and feces were collected for 6 days), the absorbed fractions were determined to be 0.5% for aluminum citrate and 0.01% for aluminum hydroxide.
            [DHHS/ATSDR; Toxicological Profile for Aluminum (July 1999). Available from, as of May 21, 2004: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp22.html **PEER REVIEWED**

          • Do you understand the use of that term? This is not a strawman. There is no elemental aluminum in vaccines. None.

          • Barzini

            And I never claimed there was – hence the straw man

          • You are concerned about aluminum safety. Aluminum is an element. There is no elemental aluminum in vaccines. So who’s the one with the strawman?

          • Azuran

            You have still to provide the shadow of an evidence that this is harmful to babies in any way.

          • Barzini

            No, I want you to prove that this is a safe amount

            That’s how things work

          • Azuran

            It has been giving to millions of babies. And 0 of them have died from aluminum poisoning. 0 of them have any kind of side effect related to aluminum.
            I believe that is proof enough that the amount in vaccine is safe.

          • Wren

            Don’t forget, it has been used for well over 50 years. We have third and fourth generations being vaccinated with vaccines with aluminium adjuvants now. Still no indications of harm.

          • Wren

            Actually, that isn’t how it works. What you can do is prove it is not harmful. That’s how things work.

          • Charybdis

            Nope. We have sixty years of evidence that aluminum adjuvants in vaccines are safe. YOU are the one claiming all sorts of harm from adjuvants, so YOU are the one who has to provide that evidence.

            Waiting, sweetheart. Waiting.

          • Sonja Henie

            “President Obama knows exactly what he’s doing” X 10.
            How’d that work out for you, Marco?

          • Nick Sanders

            Micrograms, 1/1000th of a milligram, which are themselves 1/1000th of a gram. So, 0.00025 grams. Gee, it’s almost like you are picking the unit just to make it sound big.

          • Charybdis

            And they aren’t dying in droves, nor are they having any neurological issues. What now, Skippy?

      • Wren

        I already knew there was aluminium in pretty much any diet humans can eat. Not shocked.

        And yes, an equivalent amount of breastmilk has less aluminium. Of course, babies take in breast milk way less often than they take in vaccines. If babies were injected 8 times a day or more for even a week I’d be concerned. They aren’t though.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        What are you suggesting? That the dose makes the poison?

        • Barzini

          I’m saying that ingestion and injection is the same and the fact that there’s aluminium in breast milk means its cool injecting it into babies in radically higher amounts on their first day of life

          It took me a while to come round, I apologise for that, but I’m there now

          • Azuran

            You are still missing the point. It doesn’t matter if the injected dose is ‘radically higher’ than the ingested amount. If both of those amount are below the toxic dose, than they are both perfectly safe.

          • Roadstergal

            I ate radically more eggs yesterday than I have eaten today.

          • Barzini

            Careful now, does makes the poison remember

            Perhaps you should start handling your eggs with special gloves and dispose of any waste in specially constructed bio containers

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            So what does of aluminum makes the poison when injected into new born babies?

          • Azuran

            Well, if you want to know so much, inject your baby with it, and when it dies, tell us the dose. You are just so obsessed with it. You want to know? Go kill a baby and find out, because that that ONLY way you will ever know.

          • Sonja Henie

            That was over the top, Marco.

          • Azuran

            He’s been asking for the lethal dose even though I’ve told him multiple time that it would require that we kill people. Yet he stills demands it.

          • Sonja Henie

            I thought I was replying to him. It’s still not cool to talk about killing babies though.

          • Nick Sanders

            More than what’s being injected, so what does the exact number matter? Do you not drive under a bridge if you don’t know the exact clearance, or do you just ask “Is it taller than my vehicle?”

          • Barzini

            So scientific, is that what science based medicine is come to – bridge comparisons

          • Roadstergal

            I linked to the PK/exposure paper in the other thread. Read the whole thing, then get back to us.

          • Roadstergal

            Your snark is actually quite on point – it would be absurd for me to treat something so very commonly consumed as if it were somehow highly hazardous with no evidence at all.

          • guest

            Those bucks ought to put a stop to those poison-concocting does, then.

          • Barzini

            What’s the toxic dose limit for aluminium by injection for a new born baby?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Very obviously, it is far lower than the doses used in vaccines (although what vaccines are actually given to newborns by injection? The first sets of shots usually comes at 2 mos).

          • Roadstergal

            HepB. Which I’m sure Barzini didn’t give to his kids, because a virus that can live on surfaces for months and can cause liver cancer just isn’t worth protecting against.

          • Barzini

            Plenty countries don;t give the Hep B vaccination to new born babies

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            So what’s the safe limit for injection of aluminum into new born babies?

            I presume you know

          • Barzini

            Wait a minute, you mean you don’t know the limit?

          • Sonja Henie

            Hepatitis B is frequently given at birth.

            Oops! I see Roadstergal already said this, but it does bear repeating so I’ll leave it.

          • corblimeybot

            Just keep wailing “newborn baby” over and over; it’s totally not an meaningless appeal to emotion.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            This is like the third time I’ve said this in the past week, but why in hell do you morons keep making straw arguments?

            Seriously, that is all you have.

          • Barzini

            I’m saying that I’m on board and that I now think it’s a good idea to inject 250mcg of aluminium into a new born baby

            The argument that breast milk also contains aluminium was what really brought it into perspective for me

            Before, when Dr Paul Offit (who made millions of dollars from vaccination) claimed that injecting a child 10,000 times would be perfectly safe, I was somewhat suspicious

            But not anymore, I would now be perfectly willing to inject my own child with 250mcg 10,000 times – I’ m convinced, I’m one of you, I have seen the light

          • Nick Sanders

            You keep bringing up Offit. He invented something that saves tens of thousands of lives a year. It is only fair that he be rewarded for that. Given various estimates for the value of a human life range from $50,000/year to $9.1 million apiece lump sum (http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1808049,00.html and http://www.theglobalist.com/the-cost-of-a-human-life-statistically-speaking/ ), one could actually argue that he was grossly underpaid. I’m not going that far, but I will say I have no problem with him having gotten the payment he did.

          • Barzini

            I’ve no problem with anyone making the money they deserve

            I’ve a problem with someone who makes millions from vaccines working at the CDC

          • Nick Sanders

            I repeat, did he make the money concurrently with his time at the CDC?

          • Barzini

            Yeah, it’s all kosha

          • Sonja Henie

            Offit doesn’t work at the CDC; he works for the University of Pennsylvania.

          • corblimeybot

            Yeah, I’m fine if the guy made money off his lifesaving work. I’m glad someone gets compensated for doing something good once in a while.

      • Michael McCarthy

        “there’s aluminium in breast milk (20000 times less) “
        You, uh, may want to check your figures there.

        • Barzini

          Breast milk contains an average of 23 mcg of aluminium / litre http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu

          An average serving for a new born baby is 0.1 litres http://www.parents.com/baby/fe

          So in one serving, a baby consumes 2.3mcg of aluminium

          But only 0.5% is absorbed – I have taken a figure for drinking water as an approximate
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm

          So we must multiply 2.3 by 0.005 to get 0.012 mcg – an amount which is consumed gradually over 10 minutes
          http://www.parents.com/baby/fe

          On the other hand, the Hep B vaccine (given on first day of life) contains 250mcg of aluminium

          So, 250/0.012 = 20,833 times more aluminium in the vaccine than breast milk, with regard to what is absorbed by the body

          • Michael McCarthy

            Like I said, check your math. If 5% is absorbed (not 0.5%), you are off by a factor of 10. The rather deceptive presentation assuming children only receive 0.1L breast milk ever, or that it being gradually consumed makes a hill of beans difference, notwithstanding.

          • Barzini

            It’s 0.5% not 5% – I provided a link

            A typical serving of breast milk for a new born baby is just under 0.1 liters

          • Michael McCarthy

            #1, you still haven’t learned how to post a working link, you moron. #2 it doesn’t matter what a SINGLE SERVING of breast milk is because they aren’t consuming a single serving.

          • swbarnes2

            Umm, no. 0.1 liter is 100 mL. There are 30 mL to the ounce, newborns drink less than an ounce at one feeding.

          • Barzini

            I gave you a link, look it up

          • swbarnes2

            Your link is broken. Some might think deliberately. I’m sorry, but there are way too many parents here who know perfectly well that very very few newborns drink 3 oz of milk in one sitting. If you meant to say that EVERY
            SINGLE DAY, babies get that much Al, you would have said so.

          • Sonja Henie

            And about 8 feedings a day. Though it really is less than 3 oz the first few days or so.

          • Barzini

            Here’s the link I took it from http://www.parents.com/baby/feeding/solid-foods/feeding-portions-menu/

            The less it is, the bigger the difference between breast milk and vaccination

            It’s actually in my interest to accept your number

          • Wren

            You did not. You chose to believe breast milk absorption was equal to water absorption. Given the radically different make up of breast milk and water, I would not be so certain of that.

            I also like that you chose breast milk, which has a far lower aluminium content than formula. Almost like you were choosing the lowest possible option.

          • Barzini

            I chose breast milk because I have been repeatedly told that the fact breast milk contains aluminum means fears over aluminum vaccination are misplaced

            The 0.5% number is an estimate – I admitted that

            I’m generating a ball park figure for discussion purposes

          • Sonja Henie

            Formula contains aluminum too, at much higher levels. You can look it up yourself. I’m sick of you, Marco.

          • Barzini

            I agree – soy milk has the highest

            I can do another calculation for soy milk if you want – it will still be a big number, but not as big

            The breast milk comparison has been made many times – it’s also what is recommended to be fed to babies

          • Wren

            But you are insisting we all use your ballpark figure.

          • Barzini

            It’s a rough number to show how ridiculous it is when people compare drinking breast milk with vaccination with regard to aluminum absorption

          • Wren

            You have 100% failed to provide any information on absorption from vaccination, so really your comparison shows nothing.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “The 0.5% number is an estimate – I admitted that”
            Keep on lying.
            Barzini Michael McCarthy • a day ago
            It’s 0.5% not 5% – I provided a link
            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/09/take-the-dr-amy-anti-vax-challenge.html#comment-2889733632

          • MaineJen

            100 ml? I hope you’re joking.

          • Barzini
          • swbarnes2

            Sigh. (emphasis mine)

            http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm

            “The risk to infants posed by the total aluminum exposure received from the entire recommended series of childhood vaccines over the first year of life is extremely low, according to a study by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)….Vaccines containing an aluminum adjuvant have a demonstrated safety profile of over six decades of use and have only uncommonly been associated with severe local reactions…Aluminum is found naturally in large quantities in the environment, often consumed through drinking water or ingesting certain foods, such as infant formula. Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.

          • Barzini

            What’s the safe dose for injection of this proven neurotoxin into new born babies?

          • swbarnes2

            The safe dose is lower than the dose that children get in vaccines: (emphasis mine)

            ” There is no evidence for neurotoxic effects in humans who may be exposed to aluminum following single, episodic injections”

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X11015799

          • Barzini

            A other poster here has just told me that the safe dose is ‘probably’ 400 mcg

            Are you saying that there is no limit?

          • swbarnes2

            Read the paper I posted. Figures 3 and 4 will answer your question.

          • MaineJen

            Stop. They are quoting cited sources and you’re being deliberately obtuse.

          • Barzini

            No, he just said it;s probably 400 mcg – I have asked for the source and received no reply

            The other guy says there is no limit

            I presume you know the safety limit for injecting aluminium into a new born baby but that you’re keeping it to yourself

          • MaineJen

            I know the upper limit for my tolerance of your trolling. I just reached it.

          • swbarnes2

            As long as that limit is higher than the amount that babies get through ALL their environmental sources, the exact number is irrelevant. But the paper I linked to has a chart of the MRLs. An honest person would have looked already and seen it.

          • Barzini

            Can you provide again?, I missed it in all the noise

          • swbarnes2

            Sigh.

            ” There is no evidence for neurotoxic effects in humans who may be exposed to aluminum following single, episodic injections”

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X11015799

            Since you already admitted that you don’t accept vaccines with zero aluminium, what exactly do you think is the point in you reading this paper? You are a vain person who isn’t going to stop believing that you know better than scientists or doctors. Its all about your vanity, the safety of children isn’t really your concern. If it was, you’d be harping on the stats for neurological damage from the infections that vaccines prevent (hint, tetanus toxin is an extremely potent neurotoxin).

          • Barzini

            I’m in a discussion with another poster on this thread who believes the limit is around 400mcg

            Above this limit he believes neurological damage could be possible – and that’s not in a new born baby

          • swbarnes2

            So you won’t read my link, the EVIDENCE there, even though I posted it twice at your request, because of what someone else wrote.

            That’s not honest behavior.

          • Barzini

            So here’s the study provided by the other poster where children started showing signs of neurological problems after 400 mcg

            So one of you is wrong

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

            There was a study[1] done on IV hydration for VLW infants comparing standard solutions (25 mcg/dl) and Al depleted solutions. They compared cognitive outcomes at corrected post-term age of 18 months. Doses of ten days had comparable neurological outcomes, greater than ten days had reduced neurological outcomes.
            In ten days a child would have had VLW child would have had somewhat more than 400mcg. Considering that VLW children are a population at risk of having reduced neurological development. It’s reasonable to consider that an upper bound for normal weight children.
            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10…

          • Wren

            Try reading this link. The children involved were very low weight infants born prematurely, at less than 34 weeks gestation. They are of a much smaller size than your average new born and far less developed.

          • swbarnes2

            Sigh. This really embarrassing for you. Sometimes, two different studies will say slightly different things. (especially if, as in this case, they are studying two different populations!). This is not a horrible problem, and it doesn’t mean that you throw up your hands, declare that facts are meaningless, and that it’s okay for you to leave your children vulnerable to deadly diseases for no good reason. Honest people don’t think like that.

            Honest people who scream over and over again how injection is SO much different than ingestion should not simply slide over the difference between a one time injection and days and days of IV administration either.

            My link cites the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, so that’s a better figure to go by then mangling math in a paper that’s not directly answering the question.

          • Barzini

            The other study shows babies having neurological damage as a result of aluminium – are you saying they made a mistake ?

          • swbarnes2

            It is futile to talk to someone who is not honest. Until you deal with the paper I presented, you are not honest. As long as you stand firm on not vaccinating with vaccines that have NO aluminum, you are not honest in continuing this conversation.

          • Roadstergal

            He doesn’t vaccinate with vaccines that contain no aluminum at all. He’s a disingenuous contrarian.

          • Barzini

            I don’t have time to read it right now – but I promise I will – and thanks for the link

            What do you think about the other paper that shows neurological damage in babies in levels some where above 400mcg?

            What do you think about the FDA limit of 5mcg/kg/day?

          • MaineJen

            Take it…to the limit

          • Charybdis

            One more time!

          • Who?

            So you have hours and hours to post, but no time to read?

            Could you understand it if you did make the time to read it in between feverishly beating the keyboard?

          • Nick Sanders

            I think that’s for long term IV exposure, which works differently because a constant intake is harder for the body to clear than a quick spike.

            Also:
            http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, we’re saying you’re making a mistake.

            The other study showed no difference in cognitive outcomes at 18 months in highly vulnerable populations. This dose is much greater than the Heb B shot. Ergo the Heb B shot is safe for normal weight children.

            The problem with your interpretation of the > 10 day group as having decreased cognitive function due to aluminum is that:

            i) Like any test there are false positives and like a lot of tests they are geared to be more specific than sensitive. That is they are better at ruling things IN more than ruling things OUT.

            ii) The differences are significant but aren’t necessarily large. The means of both groups qualify as normal.

            iii) They are all VLW infants who are on IV hydration. Which means the > 10 day group is more ill than the 10 day or less group. So this would likely create a biasing effect toward lower scoring outcomes.

            (Again if you had decided to read the study you would know all this)

            So while this study shuts down your idea about Hep B. It doesn’t really say much about normal weight children on higher doses.

          • Sonja Henie

            Good job at interpreting the study, Jon, but I doubt it will penetrate his thick skull.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I think it’s pretty clear that he’s being deliberately ignorant.

          • Wren

            I’m not sure he is.

            I mean, he is deliberately misinterpreting things, sure. But does he have the knowledge to be deliberately ignorant here or is he just actually that ignorant? He seems incapable of reading a study and figuring out what it says and clearly lacks both basic biology and chemistry.

          • Roadstergal

            At some point, though, he has to go back to where he said he’d read the cited papers, and either try to read them and not understand a word (we can see very well from his attempt to read the preemie paper that he doesn’t know how to read papers), or know that would be the outcome and deliberately avoid them. So on some level, he’s being quite deliberately ignorant. Stupid, as well, but the ignorance is the deliberate part.

          • Wren

            I think he has probably tried to read them, failed to understand them but not even realised that.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well the thing that is a red flag for me is that he sets up a standard of evidence: “injected isn’t the same as consumed” and then when it is met all of a sudden the standard changes. That said I’m hardly an expert in the psychology of trolls…

          • Nick Sanders

            And he keeps trying to use his “0.5%” in cases where it is either already factored in by default, such as oral toxicity data, or where it’s completely inapplicable, such as injection reaction analysis. Case in point:
            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/skepticalob/take_the_dr_amy_anti_vax_challenge/#comment-2889777434

          • Sonja Henie

            There’s the remote possibility that he is really that ignorant, but it’s doubtful. He’s a Swiss who writes English well, so there’s that.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Sure anything is possible. Understanding trolls isn’t exactly a hard science.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It’s reasonable to consider dosages lower than 400mcg safe in normal weight children. The other study says:

            There is no evidence for neurotoxic effects in humans who may be exposed to aluminum following single, episodic injections

            There is no contradiction.

          • Barzini

            Cool, give your one day old baby the 250mcg of aluminum

            Based on what you have posted here today, I am actually even more wary of the vaccination for one day old babies now

            If we do establish the safety limit I would be very interested in seeing what it is and how it was arrived at

          • Jonathan Graham

            Cool, give your one day old baby the 250mcg of aluminum

            You mean give them the Hep B vaccine. I would have if it was available. I gave both my kids the hep A/B combo instead.

          • Charybdis

            You don’t give a damn about the safety and safety limit. You don’t vax your kids and, if I remember correctly, you aren’t vaxxed yourself. So this is just theoretical, a thought experiment for you. Even if there was a study/studies done, you wouldn’t read them. Just like you haven’t read a single thing any of us have posted.

          • Wren

            He won’t read the other link either. He claims it involves “much older children” when in fact it involves premature babies born prior to 34 weeks gestation.

          • Azuran

            He’s not saying the limit is around 400. He’s saying that they showed 400 is safe for premature baby. Which says nothing about the actual limit on normal newborns, it might be 450, it might be 800.
            You really understand nothing.

          • Barzini

            450 isn’t much above the 250 in a hep B vaccine – I hope it isn’t 450

            Gee, maybe we should work out what it is

          • Roadstergal

            It is, actually. It’s a lot above. It’s a lot above an amount shown to be safe in fragile premature babies.

          • Azuran

            By killing a baby?

          • Roadstergal

            We have rather good modeling, actually, that means we don’t have to. But The Amazing Barzini won’t read the paper.

          • Azuran

            Probably because it’s modeling. that’s not good enough to him.

          • Barzini

            No, the lethal dose is far above the dose at which neurological harm starts to occur (far far above)

          • Azuran

            So…..we should inject babies until they start having neurological signs?

          • Barzini

            Ah, so you admit that they will start to have signs of neurological damage – a breakthrough at last

          • Azuran

            Are you having an imaginary argument in your head? Because you clearly are making things up that I haven’t said.
            I’m the one who said that dose makes the poison, and that everything has a toxic dose. So of course, if you hook babies to IV aluminum, eventually they are going to get intoxicated by it.
            My point it that
            -We know the dose we use are safe
            -It’s useless to know exactly at what dose they start having signs
            And doing such a thing to babies is freaking maniac!!!

          • Charybdis

            Reading comprehension fail!

          • corblimeybot

            Explain why you won’t use vaccines without aluminum. You’ve dodged that question about ten times, unless Disqus is hiding the one time you tried to explain that nonsense.

          • Roadstergal

            “We’re talking about aluminum at the moment” was basically his response. In other words, his reasons for not vaccinating with all of the non-Al-containing vaccines must be even stupider than the reason he’s giving for skipping the HepB vaccine.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So let me get this straight, you’re concerned about a dosage very much lower than a known safe (for a particular outcome) dosage? On a group of people who are really, really vulnerable to that outcome?

            So your thinking is what? If the dose is too much lower than a known safe dosage it could cause harm?

            I think you better lay off the cough syrup there Barzini.

          • Barzini

            That doesn’t sound like a big enough factor of safety for me

            The study you linked to was for observable damage

            There’s every chance that damage occurred at a lower level that wasn’t detected

            Anyway, my point is that we shouldn’t be trying to work this out, the information should be there

            And by the way, many pre-term babies are given the Hep B vaccine

          • Roadstergal

            “That doesn’t sound like a big enough safety factor for me.”

            Based on what? Your extensive study and experience in biostats, immunology, PK, or tox? Or your Mommy Instinct?

            You could try reading more than one paper, you know. That’s just one data point among many. We’ve supplied you with more.

          • Jonathan Graham

            The study you linked to was for observable damage

            Absolutely not. If you ever decided to read the study you would know that. There is only evidence of reduced markers.

            There’s every chance that damage occurred at a lower level that wasn’t detected

            Nope. There is a statistically bounded chance that either there’s a change in Bailey score that is not detectable (which means it has to be super small) or a chance that some kind of cognitive outcome is not detectable by Bailey. Go ahead and let me know about that. The group that didn’t get the aluminum had a wider CI than the group that did. Which also tells us that it’s unlikely that we are looking at an accident of statistics. In fact even the change in score between the > 10 day group is small.

            Anyway, my point is that we shouldn’t be trying to work this out, the information should be there

            Sorry but that’s not your point. Your point was what is safe? I told you, supplied evidence. You can’t seem to deal with the rather well supported fact that hep b is safe.

          • Charybdis

            Moved on to Hep B now, has s/he?

            The desperation is just sad. 🙁

          • Roadstergal

            Yeah, he didn’t know to start with that there isn’t aluminum adjuvant in the MMR, so he had to jump to the (most excellent) HepB shot. There’s a vaccine that prevents certain types of _cancer_ in the population most likely to get the chronic, cancer-associated form of HepB, and noooo don’t do it!

            BTW, multiple studies in multiple countries have independently identified acupuncture as a risk factor for HepB (which, of course, makes sense). It’s just funny notfunny to me that the Venn diagram of the strain of woo that wouldn’t vaccinate with the strain of woo that is onboard with acupuncture is probably highly overlapping.

          • Charybdis

            But they soak the acupuncture needles in breastmilk before using them, don’t they? No reason at all to worry about potentially catching Hep B from acupuncture. Or some moxibustion will sterilize everything, right?

            I wonder if Barzini is aware that there is aluminum in tattoo ink. And that has a permanent residence UNDER YOUR SKIN!! Where there is eternal exposure to teh aloominums!!

          • Roadstergal

            He’d probably smugly state that he doesn’t tattoo his newborn, either.

            (I have so many tattoos. And have had all of the vaccinations I’m eligible for, including the HepB series… it’s a wonder I haven’t caught all of Teh Alzheimer’s already!)

          • Charybdis

            True, you don’t tattoo your newborn, but if s/he has tattoos, has family members with tattoos or allows his kids to get tattoos, then Barzini should raise holy hell with them and get his/hers removed posthaste.

            Because you now have aluminum-containing inks injected with a needle under your skin where they will stay, an innocuous pictorial tribute silently leaching aluminum into your system forever!

            Or piercings. What about the piercings and HepB?

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, The Amazing Barzini doesn’t care about other people. In fact, other people doing things he disapproves of are a great way to smugly look down on them. He’d be all “Oh, if _you_ want to expose your kids to toxic aluminum in tattoos, go right ahead…” But the fact that his beloved Swiss low vaccination rate caused a painful and expensive outbreak in CA? Nah, fuck y’all.

            Yeah, I have a lot of piercings, too. I make sure the sites I go to have an autoclave with a current inspection certificate, and remove the needles from the autoclave bag with the indicator changed where I can see it, but I still am much more at ease knowing my immune system is prepared to shut that M-F down the moment it sees it.

          • corblimeybot

            Every chance? There is every single chance that secret, hidden, undetectable damage was done?

            So what you really mean is “Oh shit, I look wrong, time to blither. If the damage was undetectable, that just means people weren’t looking hard enough. YEAH, that sounds good!”

          • Azuran

            so….now we should also kill the babies to analyses their brain for damage?

          • Michael McCarthy

            wouldn’t it be easier (and a lot more satisfying) to kill Barzini and look for brain damage?

          • Roadstergal

            You don’t have to look hard.

          • Wren

            How do you propose that is done? You clearly know so much more than the men and women who have studied, trained and now work in research in this area. What is you undoubtedly ethical and practical method to find the exact top end of safe aluminum administration?

            Or is this just an attempt to claim that since that exact point isn’t known, no aluminum is the only safe option?

            What exactly is the maximum safe dose of paracetamol for a newborn? Remember, this baby is just born, on his or her first
            day of life. You cannot simply go by a safe, therapeutic dose. You must know the exact maximum safe dose or you cannot give paracetamol at all. The same applies to any other medication, of course.

          • swbarnes2

            Barzini, some amount of photonic radiation is lethal, so unless you know what that amount is off the top of your head RIGHT NOW, shut off all the EM radiation in your area. Just get away fro ALL of it until you know how much is safe. Unless you know the maximum safe amount of oxygen that you can breathe, you need to stop breathing RIGHT NOW.

          • corblimeybot

            Have you addressed why you’re terrified of aluminum (which has had no demonstrable effect in millions of vaccinated children), but chill about tetanus?

          • Roadstergal

            He’s shown he’s 100% cool with hepatitis B and measles, also.

          • Charybdis

            Dude, I posted that info last week for you and it kicked off your “injection is not ingestion” bout of repetitive verbal vomit.

            http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/video/there-difference-between-aluminum-injected-vs-ingested#.V9ccCfkrLIU
            …there’s logarithmically so much more aluminum that you ingest that you actually have far more aluminum in your circulation because of what you eat and drink than you would ever get from vaccines.

            Aluminum is incorporated into some vaccines as an adjuvant. The purpose of formulating vaccines with adjuvants is to increase the immune response to the antigen (the component of the vaccine that stimulates the immune system to make antibodies). When FDA evaluates a vaccine for safety and effectiveness, an adjuvant such as aluminum, is considered to be a part of the vaccine, rather than a component that is licensed separately.
            Federal Regulations for biological products (including vaccines) limit the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg. For example, the amount of aluminum in the hepatitis B vaccine given at birth is 0.25 mg. Aluminum is found naturally in large quantities in the environment, often consumed through drinking water or ingesting certain foods, such as infant formula. Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.
            Updated aluminum pharmacokinetics following infant exposures through diet and vaccination.”
            Vaccine 29 (2011) 9538-9543
            doi.org/10.1016/j.vaccine.2011.09.124

            During the first 6 months of life, infants could receive about
            4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. That’s not very much: a
            milligram is one-thousandth of a gram and a gram is the weight of
            one-fifth of a teaspoon of water. During the same period, babies will
            also receive about 10 milligrams of aluminum in breast milk, about
            40 milligrams in infant formula, or about 120 milligrams in soybased
            formula.
            . Most of the aluminum that enters the body is eliminated
            quickly. Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters the
            bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food is
            absorbed through the intestines into the blood.
            However, once aluminum is in the bloodstream, it is processed
            similarly regardless of the source. Approximately 90 percent is
            processed by binding to a protein called transferrin, and about
            10 percent is bound by citrate. Once bound, the majority of
            aluminum will be eliminated through the kidneys, a small amount
            through bile, and a small amount is retained in tissues of the body.
            About half of the aluminum in the bloodstream is eliminated in less
            than 24 hours and more than three-quarters is eliminated within
            two weeks. The ability of the body to rapidly eliminate aluminum
            accounts for its excellent record of safety. . The small quantity of aluminum retained in the body
            accumulates over time. Most of the aluminum that accumulates
            (50 to 60 percent) settles in the bones, some in the lungs (about 25
            percent) and some in the brain (about 1 percent). The remaining
            quantities are distributed in serum, skin, gastrointestinal tract, lymph
            nodes and glands. In fact, low quantities of aluminum can be found in most organs.
            By the time children
            become adults, they will
            have accumulated between
            50 and 100 milligrams
            of aluminum. Almost
            all of that accumulated
            aluminum comes from
            food. For aluminum to be harmful, two criteria must be met: People must
            have kidneys that don’t work well or don’t work at all, and they must
            receive large quantities of aluminum for months or years. In these
            situations, a lot of aluminum enters the body and not enough leaves the body. The quantity of aluminum in vaccines is tiny compared with
            the quantity required to cause harm. Here’s another way to think
            about this: All babies are either breast-fed or bottlefed. Because
            both breast milk and infant formula contain aluminum, all babies
            have small quantities of aluminum in their bloodstreams all the
            time. The amount is very small: about 5 nanograms (billionths of a
            gram) per milliliter of blood (about one-fifth of a teaspoon). Indeed,
            the quantity of aluminum in vaccines is so small that even after an
            injection of vaccines, the amount of aluminum in a baby’s blood does
            not detectably change. In contrast, the amount of aluminum in the
            bloodstreams of people who suffer health problems from aluminum
            is at least 100
            times greater
            than the amount
            found in the
            bloodstreams of
            healthy people. Delaying vaccines increases the time during which children
            are susceptible to catching vaccine-preventable diseases. Certain
            diseases, such as whooping cough and pneumococcus, still occur
            commonly in the United States. Given that aluminum is common in
            food and water, delaying vaccines will not significantly lessen a child’s
            exposure to aluminum; it will only increase the child’s chance of
            suffering a severe and potentially fatal infection.

            Influenza is the 7th most deadly disease in the United States, right behind diabetes. Every year, 55,000 adults and children die from the flu and pulmonary complications derived by the flu, while severe adverse reactions to the flu shot are 0.00000001%, so why not vaccinate? Also, remember the concept of herd immunity discussed above. Not vaccinating against the flu means exposing more people to the virus for a prolonged period of time, including immune compromised individuals. An immunized person that comes in contact with the influenza virus clears the infection in 24 hours. A non-vaccinated person is infected and contagious for almost a week, often asymptomatically at first, which dramatically increases spreading of the disease. It is also important that the flu vaccine is taken yearly.

            There.

          • Ron Roy

            Only .05% of any ingested aluminum gets into the bloodstream as opposed to 100% in vaccines. Plus the blood brain barrier is not fully developed in newborns.

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove it.

            Edit: I just noticed, that number shrunk again. First it was 5%, then it was 0.5%, now it’s 0.05%.

          • Charybdis

            Citation for that claim; that the blood/brain barrier is not fully developed in newborns?

            Most of the aluminum that enters the body is eliminated
            quickly. Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters the
            bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food is
            absorbed through the intestines into the blood.
            However, once aluminum is in the bloodstream, it is processed
            similarly regardless of the source. Approximately 90 percent is
            processed by binding to a protein called transferrin, and about
            10 percent is bound by citrate. Once bound, the majority of
            aluminum will be eliminated through the kidneys, a small amount
            through bile, and a small amount is retained in tissues of the body.
            About half of the aluminum in the bloodstream is eliminated in less
            than 24 hours and more than three-quarters is eliminated within
            two weeks. The ability of the body to rapidly eliminate aluminum
            accounts for its excellent record of safety. . The small quantity of aluminum retained in the body
            accumulates over time. Most of the aluminum that accumulates
            (50 to 60 percent) settles in the bones, some in the lungs (about 25
            percent) and some in the brain (about 1 percent). The remaining
            quantities are distributed in serum, skin, gastrointestinal tract, lymph
            nodes and glands. In fact, low quantities of aluminum can be found in most organs.
            By the time children
            become adults, they will
            have accumulated between
            50 and 100 milligrams
            of aluminum.

            If you are having trouble reading the above information, you might get someone to help you sound out the big words. Or read it to you so you can concentrate on absorbing the meaning of the passage.

          • Ron Roy

            And these studies were conducted by the same people ( the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA ) who approved of these 35 drugs that were later banned because of serious side effects and deaths:http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005528 I think I’ll believe my sources over yours.

          • Jonathan Graham

            the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA

            Out of curiosity Ron. How many people do you think work for all the labs and universities that do work for pharmaceutical companies and the FDA? Five? Ten?

          • Ron Roy
          • Jonathan Graham

            So you think there are what twenty people in total who work for those groups? Maybe thirty?

          • Ron Roy

            I thought I told you to do the math? Ok I’ll help let’s say ( just ) 30 and let’s say those 30 were department heads. How many people under their control would dare go against their commands or wishes? So 30 could turn into hundreds if not thousands.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I thought I told you to do the math?

            What I’m asking is what you think. Not what actually exists.

            So 30 could turn into hundreds if not thousands.

            So thousands? The 1.3 million papers published each year are initiate, managed and completed entirely using a few thousand? That’s your position. Right?

          • Ron Roy

            No but the approval of drugs and vaccines are approved by a handful of people.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You weren’t talking about approval. You were talking about the studies that were conducted. See it’s right here:

            And these studies were conducted by the same people

            So again. How many Ron? 50 people? Thousands? How many to produce the 1.3 million papers published each year?

          • Ron Roy

            Papers ah yes you mean the papers written by ghost writers that are then attributed to scientist that are paid for the use of their names.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Again, how many people do you think are creating these 1.3 million published papers. Anytime you want to answer that question I can continue tearing you a new one.

          • Charybdis

            Really? You are claiming that department heads “control” people and are such martinets and egomaniacs that those working for them will have no choice but to bow to their wishes and demands? Even if they have a favorite “pet” theory/belief, they generally don’t insist that EVERYBODY bow to their quirks. Stringent lab rules, testing procedures and protocols, sterilization standards, universal precautions, use of vent hoods, incubators, storage of flammables and other hazardous materials, clean room policies, etc, THESE are the things where there is no leeway and noncompliance with these things is not tolerated.

            My Organic Chemistry professor in college was obsessed with nitrites and nitrosamines and would occasionally go off on a tangent about them. However, *his* thoughts and feelings about them were not part of the curriculum. He covered them in class appropriately and THAT material was on the test. He did not test us on *his* beliefs/concerns/obsession about nitrates and nitrosamines. Nor did he inspect lunches or expect his TA’s and lab assistants to shun those compounds.

            My Biochemistry professor wore latex gloves when lecturing and writing on the chalkboard because he hated the feeling of chalk on his hands. He did not claim that chalk was poisonous or otherwise harmful in the classroom situation. He just didn’t like the feeling of chalk and chalk dust on his hands and claimed that it dried them out. He did not insist that students wear gloves if they used the chalk, nor did he insist that his TA’s wear gloves if they were covering the lecture that day.

            Science really doesn’t work the way you think it does. New discoveries are NOT automatically dismissed, nor are they rushed out in publications for the general public, they are tested over and over for repeatability, reproducibility and reliability so that a consensus can be reached about the findings.

          • Ron Roy

            There’s a revolving door in between the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies. FDA employees either tow the line or get fired.

          • Who?

            ‘…toe the line’

            I think you’re a little febrile. You would of course be delighted to be febrile, being a fan of serious illness (admittedly though, mostly in others, usually in children).

            Let’s see if you can manage to humbly acknowledge a simple error this time, or whether you again start diverting attention and blaming others.

          • Ron Roy

            Ooooo I made a grammatical mistake you on the other hand have made a mistake far greater in supporting the harming of our children through vaccines. I’ll live with my mistake they won’t through yours.

          • Who?

            So now you’ve acknowledged your error, not with humility, but hang around, you might continue to grow.

            Still can’t resist the swipe though, can you.

            I don’t support the harming of children through vaccines, I support vaccination as a powerful tool in public health, for adults and children. Many people are alive and well today thanks to vaccines, who would otherwise be dead or permanently injured.

            You see things differently. In that, you are wrong.

          • Ron Roy

            What did you say? Oh sorry I started reading but you put me to sleep.

          • Nick Sanders

            If you can’t stay awake through 4 short paragraphs, you really aren’t mentally equipped to read studies, much less analyze them.

          • https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47c29f769b1ab0c4d296892f82d1daafcb6eceec275bb6b2f0af965360a00baf.jpg

            I dunno the exact number but I do know that if you add up the Big Seven competing pharma companies’ employees alone…you get to….I dunno the number…but I do recall it being a group of people roughly the same size as the population of Detroit.

            So this conspiracy is equivalent to the entire population of Detroit hiding a secret from the rest of America. May I just remind readers that there was one particular president who couldn’t hide an affair from the public eye and there were only two people in that room.

          • Ron Roy

            9 up votes from three people quite a trick. Makes you look good though.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I rarely look at my upvotes. Are you trying to claim that some of them are sockpuppets?

          • Ron Roy

            Yes.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Am I supposed to be controlling that somehow? Shoo sockpuppets! Shoo!

            Happy?

          • Michael McCarthy

            “9 up votes from three people”
            What is the distribution set? 3-3-3, 4-4-1, 4-3-2, 5-3-1, 5-2-2, 6-2-1, 7-1-1?

          • Charybdis

            That is certainly your perogative. However, you DO realize that your tinfoil hat is made of aluminum, right?

            And that Alcoa is in bed with both the Illuminati AND Big Brother in a huge mind-controlling, subversive and altogether BAD menage a trois?

          • Ron Roy

            Tin foil hat? What the… Oh darn you’re looking in the mirror again! I wanting for you to comment on all those SAFE drugs that were taken off the market. You know the ones that were as rigorously tested as vaccines. But but vaccine are perfectly safe. NOT!

          • Charybdis

            Vaccines have a 60+ year history of safety. Very few people have a legitimate, serious reaction to vaccines and these are the people who have a valid reason for vaccine exemptions. Things like redness at the site of the injection, mild swelling at the site of injection, low grade fever, feeling achy/ under the weather for a day or two and tenderness )at the site of injection are NOT vaccine injuries. Those are known effects of receiving a vaccination, and fairly common.

            And drugs are not the same as vaccines. To borrow one of the anti-vaxxer’s favorite ploys: we aren’t discussing drug safety/efficacy. Drugs are given over a time period (3x/day antibiotics for 10 days, Lortab every 4-6 hours as needed for pain after surgery, etc) or chronically as maintenance medication (beta blockers, diuretics, insulin, depression and anxiety meds, etc). Drugs are in your system much more regularly and for a longer period of time than a vaccine, so dosages are different and exposure to the compound is over a longer period of time.

            Vaccines are used to prime the immune system against specific disease-causing viruses and bacteria. They are tiny doses, exquisitely formulated to trigger the needed immune response with a minimum of exposure. They have been researched and continually improved over time so they are very safe. The safety record is there, but it is not 100%. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, so it is up to you to weigh the risks for you and yours.

            But nice try with the red herring. Drugs are not the same as vaccines in makeup, use and length of exposure.

          • Ron Roy

            The moral character of those making of those making drugs doesn’t change when they make vaccines. If their able to put unsafe drugs on the market they will and do put unsafe vaccines on the market. Drug companies are able to absorb the lawsuits from bad reactions to drugs but could not from vaccines so they bribed our politicians into having the Federal government accept the liability.

          • Charybdis

            How about a citation for that? “Ron Roy’s personal beliefs and willful ignorance about science” is not an acceptable citation for your claims.

          • Ron Roy

            VICP

          • Ron Roy

            Let me correct you. The 60 year history of vaccines could be made into a horror movie.

          • MaineJen

            A horror movie in which scores of healthy people fail to contract measles, polio or tetanus! OH MY GOD 😮

            In which every child can reasonably be expected to live to adulthood. THE HORROR

          • Who?

            Oh MaineJen you’re looking at it all wrong. What’s a few dead people when all rr’s feelings and freedoms are at stake?

            Surely a few dead people are a small price to pay for rr to feel good about himself?

          • Nick Sanders

            An unrelenting scourge has already wiped out a once thriving race, another hovers on the brink of extinction, and now they’re coming for YOU!

            From the makers of Sanitation and Antibiotics, comes VACCINE! “No germ is safe.”

          • Once-thriving = smallpox.

            Hovering = polio.

            Coming for you = measles.

            ?

          • Nick Sanders

            The third was non-specific, because movie advertisements are trying to attract as many viewers as possible. The first two you got right, though.

          • Charybdis

            Here you go:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4267212/

            Careful examination of relevant literature shows that many of the most cherished concepts of the blood-brain barrier are incorrect. These include an almost mythological belief in its immaturity that is unfortunately often equated with absence or at least leakiness in the embryo and fetus. The original concept of a blood-brain barrier is often attributed to Ehrlich; however, he did not accept that permeability of cerebral vessels was different from other organs. Goldmann is often credited with the first experiments showing dye (trypan blue) exclusion from the brain when injected systemically, but not when injected directly into it. Rarely cited are earlier experiments of Bouffard and of Franke who showed methylene blue and trypan red stained all tissues except the brain. The term “blood-brain barrier” “Blut-Hirnschranke” is often attributed to Lewandowsky, but it does not appear in his papers. The first person to use this term seems to be Stern in the early 1920s. Studies in embryos by Stern and colleagues, Weed and Wislocki showed results similar to those in adult animals. These were well-conducted experiments made a century ago, thus the persistence of a belief in barrier immaturity is puzzling. As discussed in this review, evidence for this belief, is of poor experimental quality, often misinterpreted and often not properly cited. The functional state of blood-brain barrier mechanisms in the fetus is an important biological phenomenon with implications for normal brain development. It is also important for clinicians to have proper evidence on which to advise pregnant women who may need to take medications for serious medical conditions. Beliefs in immaturity of the blood-brain barrier have held the field back for decades. Their history illustrates the importance of taking account of all the evidence and assessing its quality, rather than selecting papers that supports a preconceived notion or intuitive belief. This review attempts to right the wrongs. Based on careful translation of original papers, some published a century ago, as well as providing discussion of studies claiming to show barrier immaturity, we hope that readers will have evidence on which to base their own conclusions.

            Keywords: blood-brain barrier, blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier, embryo, fetus, newborn, permeability, tight junctions, transporters
            Go to:
            Introduction
            The very first studies of barrier properties in embryos clearly demonstrated the intactness of the interfaces between the blood, brain and cerebrospinal fluid1. Thus Wislocki (1920) injected a guinea pig embryo with trypan blue (Figure ​(Figure1A),1A), the same dye, which was first used by Goldmann (1909; 2013 see below). Wislocki (1920) observed that in the embryo, as in adult animals, the dye stained almost all of the tissues of the body, with the notable exception of much of the brain.

            Figure 1
            Figure 1
            Early demonstration of blood-brain barrier phenomenon in developing brain. (A) Mid gestation guinea pig embryo injected with trypan blue (Wislocki, 1920). Note lack of staining of brain and spinal cord as previously described in adult animals injected …
            Even earlier than this Weed (1917a,b) injected an approximately isotonic solution of potassium ferrocyanide, a small molecule about the same size as sucrose, into the neural tube of E19 and older pig embryos. Weed’s results showed that in an E19 pig embryo the potassium ferrocyanide (demonstrated by the Prussian blue reaction) remained entirely within the fluid filling the neural tube (Figure ​(Figure1B).1B). This suggests that even this early in development, shortly after neural tube closure, the central nervous system (CNS) is separate from the rest of the embryo.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and as demonstrated (as opposed to Ron Roy’s sources which are just flaky unsupported claims) here[1]. IV aluminum in much, much, much more vulnerable infants. Shows no evidence of cognitive problems at doses much higher than those in vaccines. Since as you have already admitted Ron. The poison is in the dose. You can consider yourself corrected. Welcome to the world where people think instead of just google for things that agree with them.

            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Ron Roy

            Why does your god Paul Offit refuse to debate Boyd Haley PhD on the topic of aluminum toxicity in vaccines?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Sadly I am not any kind of authority on Paul Offit. However again your point that your that aluminum as given in vaccines has neurotoxic effects is refuted[1]. As you say the poison is in the dose. So you now know that whatever level of aluminum is neurotoxic your concerns about vaccines are misapprehensions. I look forward to you never making this claim again. 🙂

            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Hahaha! Good luck with that request. He will continue to resist all facts, changing only when his hoard of scientific illiterates moves on from aluminum to squalene, formaldehyde, aborted baby parts, SV40, monkey puss, etc. Just like they did with “mercury.”

          • Jonathan Graham

            He can resist all he wants. However that paper effectively destroys the “Oh if you inject this is completely different” argument. Ron wouldn’t dare read a study so I guess he’ll have to wait for someone to post a critique to whale-to. 🙂

          • It’s only a matter of time. But as long as Shaw and Tomljenovic continue to get funding, this trope will continue.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Could be. Shaw’s research is crappy and if he wanted to do serious work on aluminum toxicity I’m pretty sure he’s burned all his bridges by now. The irony there is that makes him a slave to people who are willing to fund research with his predetermined set of outcomes.

          • That is ironic. But somehow, this bias is ignored, while a respected MD like Offit is vilified for just the misguided perception of impropriety.

          • Ron Roy

            Why is it whenever a reputable scientist PROVES ANYTHING that shows vaccines do cause harm ” the research is crappy “? Many scientist have said that aluminum in vaccines is harmful. If we were to rely on credentials ( something you and your cohorts use against me ) your credentials are no better than mine when compared to Shaw’s or other trained scientists.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Why is it whenever a reputable scientist PROVES

            Well that’s the problem Shaw didn’t prove anything in any useful sense of the word.

            ‘ the research is crappy “?

            Because it is. I can give you a long list of the problems with any of Shaw’s papers I’ve read.

            Many scientist have said that aluminum in vaccines is harmful

            Many scientists believe that the earth is less than 12,000 years old. So you need to weigh the scientific evidence. Not just find a piece you agree with. That’s the different between you and me Ron. You have zero clue how to weigh evidence.

            your credentials are no better than mine when compared to Shaw’s or other trained scientists.

            Sorry Ron whatever Shaw is I’m still miles above you in terms of being able to weigh statistical data. Which is a large part of modern medical science.

            It is well understood that the amount of variability in terms of statistical knowledge in the scientific community is wide. Shaw is probably on the shallow end of that pool. In fact it’s interesting how people who suck at math – Thompson, Shaw, Hooker and are scientists. Tend to support the ideas that there’s some problem with vaccines.

          • Ron Roy

            Johnny I’d rather suck at math than suck at having a conscience and I’m light years ahead of you on that.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’d rather suck at math

            You do.

            than suck at having a conscience

            Ron, you sit here and pontificate every day based on evidence that you either know is wrong or evidence that you should know that you don’t understand.

            It’s kind of hard for you to lecture on having a conscience because it’s pretty unconscionable to deceive people the way you are doing.

            Not only that but you go (or claim to) and convince other people – like your daughter. You may not realize this but I can easily change my mind on vaccines – or just some vaccines. If the right evidence comes along. However you can’t. You’ve deceived all these people and now you’re stuck. What would you do if you were shown undeniable evidence of you being wrong…go apologize to your daughter “Oh remember when I blamed you for you child’s problems. When apparently I was stupid, ignorant, blowhard”. Nope, you’re going to try your darnedest to keep believing what you already believe. Because that’s pretty much the only choice you have.

          • Ron Roy

            Johnny you will never change your mind concerning vaccines. Your arrogant pride will never allow you to do so no matter how much proof is shown to you.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Johnny you will never change your mind concerning vaccines.

            Demonstrably false. I originally thought that pandemrix was unassociated with narcolepsy but now I consider that to be a position reasonably supported by evidence.

            Your arrogant pride

            The only one displaying that here is you. For example painting a journal article that you haven’t read as biased. Is pretty arrogant. 🙂

            no matter how much proof is shown

            Demonstrably false. I’ve already set out for Lowell a clear set of criteria for convincing me of anything. Although you could start by showing me evidence that isn’t exceptionally low-quality.

          • corblimeybot

            I don’t know, Ron Roy. Jonathan really doesn’t come off as an arrogant jerk in his comments here. He comes off as confident, that’s true. He also speaks with a fluency that even outsiders to the subject matter can recognize. You don’t exude fluency, though.

          • Nick Sanders

            A conscience really should tell you not to throw baseless insults around so often…

          • Wren

            A conscience should stop you from promoting suffering and potential death for children who could easily avoid it.

            You may have one, but I’m doubtful it is fully functioning.

          • Ron Roy

            Gee I was just thinking the same about you.

          • Wren

            Hmm…VPDs killing many, many people and many more suffering through them vs a few shots in childhood with at worst far fewer deaths and long term complications. Yep, clearly mine is the worse position.

          • corblimeybot

            I’m undereducated in math, to the point you could say I suck at it. But a lot of what Jonathan is saying can be basically understood just by employing a bit ‘o’ logic.

          • Wren

            “Many scientists have said” is meaningful to you but “the scientific consensus is” is not? So a number greater than 3 or 4 is big, but 90% of all the scientists in the field is small?

          • corblimeybot

            This is what Ron Roy means by sucking at math, I guess.

          • Ron Roy

            “the scientific consensus is” Science in this day and age is bought and paid for. Scientific results can no longer be trusted as being the truth. Whoever calls the tune ( the MEDICAL MAFIA ) pays the fiddler. Very few doctors or scientists will have the courage to go against the MM because if they do it would be professional suicide.

          • demodocus

            Considering only the independently wealthy can afford to have no one pay them, your point’s moot.

          • Jonathan Graham

            As you have agreed several times Ron. Scientific Journals – even major ones – have no problems publishing science that is critical of vaccines or pharmaceuticals.

            You admitted this ages ago. So it’s pretty unethical to keep pretending you didn’t.

          • Wren

            It is much easier to dismiss scientific evidence by creating conspiracy theory to deny it.

          • Ron Roy

            Scientific evidence is a scam. Drug companies manipulate experiments in order to enrich themselves. Today’s scientist( for the most part ) have sold their souls to the highest bidder.

          • Wren

            As I said, multinational conspiracy theory.

          • Sonja Henie

            Great post, Wren, I may remember that one. A bit of free advice, Ron Roy isn’t worth arguing with.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Just like they did with “mercury.” And those questioning the safety of injecting mercury were proven right.So yes let’s move on to, I choose, aluminum.

          • Proven right???
            *Citation needed
            *Ageofautism, mercola, whale are not acceptable sources.

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, proven. When thimerosal was taken out of vaccines in the US and everything that they blamed on thimerosal… continued to happen at the same or an increased rate.

          • Therefore: aluminum.

          • Ron Roy

            Yes they are. Just because they don’t fit into your idea of the truth doesn’t mean they are not credible sources.

          • Ummm, no. They are considered non-credible sources because…wait for it…they’re not credible.

          • shay simmons

            Your optimism is a shining example to us all.

          • Ron Roy

            Aluminum in vaccine is toxic. Sorry to disappoint you.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Jonathan Graham

            …but as you’ve admitted it’s not neurotoxic in the doses delivered in vaccines. Right?

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Ron Roy

            Wrong! nejm great BIASED source. Try again.

          • Jonathan Graham

            As I’ve stated it’s pretty close to impossible for that article to be biased. If you read it, you would realize. However you didn’t…so you don’t.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Let’s make something clear:

            You agree that the scientific literature, including that published in the nejm, shows that aluminum is not toxic in the doses delivered in vaccines, right? You just contend that the literature is corrupted by Big Pharma.

            Is that a correct assessment of your position?

          • Ron Roy

            The poison is in the dose ( you conveniently for got this ) AND how it enters the body. I used snake venom as an example. Drink it nothing happens inject that SAME amount your dead. If, according to you, there is no difference in between ingested and injected why aren’t all vaccines given orally?

          • Who?

            Well venom isn’t poison, for a start.

            But why let the facts get in the way of your little fantasy?

          • Ron Roy

            ”Well venom isn’t poison, for a start.” I doubt that the scientific definition of venom would matter to anyone who was just bitten by a venomous snake. But why let a little common sense get in the way of your fantasy?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’ll just point out that about 0.1% of snakebite victims in the US die. So while few would deliberately get bitten it’s not as deadly as you were making it out to be – more TV show education I guess.

            It’s particularly entertaining how some of you Americans taser each other when bitten.

          • Ron Roy

            Ok Johnny if it will make you happy lets use the venom from the Inland Taipan inject it your dead swollen it NOTHING will happen. The same goes for almost any substance.

          • Jonathan Graham

            inject it your dead swollen it NOTHING will happen.

            Ron, that is barely an English sentence. So I don’t know if you are just too worked up or what here but just for reference here’s what I said:

            I’ll just point out that about 0.1% of snakebite victims in the US die. So while few would deliberately get bitten it’s not as deadly as you were making it out to be – more TV show education I guess.

            As there are probably few inland Taipei’s in the US. Perhaps you can phrase your response in a way that actually has something to do with my post.

            As I mentioned earlier injection/ingestion primarily changes the body dose. 0.3mcg/dl is going to be pretty much the same regardless of the entry.

          • Ron Roy

            I corrected my grammar thanks for pointing it out. It was fair of you to do so because I’m constantly pointing out your mistakes in science. How does the entry change the dose? If I swallow an ounce of venom vs injecting it an ounce is still an ounce.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m constantly pointing out your mistakes in science.

            Ron, I doubt you could point out one non-trivial thing you even KNOW about science.

            How does the entry change the dose?

            It changes the dose of toxin that reaches your bloodstream. The change depends on the composition of the toxins. Some are destroyed by your gastrointestinal system, some are simply attenuated. For example a tetrodotoxin is attenuated by a factor of four.

          • Who?

            But it would matter to someone who swallowed an ounce of snake venom. Unless they had holes in their teeth, or broken skin on the way down, or maybe a gut bug of some sort, it wouldn’t get to where it would act.

            Which is why, here in Oz, it has been recommended for decades to not suck out the venom. Not only is it ineffective-the better path being to firmly bind the wound and get to hospital asap-but it’s dangerous for the person who does it if they don’t have perfectly intact teeth and inside of the mouth. I understand the protocol was to spit it out.

            ‘Common sense’ hey-so patronising. The sum of all your prejudices.

            I saw you managed to humbly acknowledge and correct a sentence structure error pointed out to you. Well done!!!!

          • Jonathan Graham

            The poison is in the dose ( you conveniently for got this )

            I just said that…are you forgetting things again?

            AND how it enters the body.

            That just changes the dose. So again you agree that the level of aluminum in vaccines is highly unlikely to be neurotoxic.[1] Right?

            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Ron Roy

            WRONG! Again I reiterate the nejm is EXTREMELY biased. Pharmaceutical companies,medical journals,the FDA, NIH ,CDC the AMA ,oh and we can’t forget the paid agents of these organizations like you, are all part of the…… ready? …… The MEDICAL MAFIA.

          • Jonathan Graham

            WRONG!

            ROFL. Did you read the study? Nope. So therefore this opinion has no basis. There’s a pretty good reason I’m saying this can’t have pharmaceutical bias. You should probably read it.

          • corblimeybot

            Snake venoms (which can be quite different than one another, although you don’t seem to realize this) are made of compounds that are labile under certain circumstances.

            Unlike you, I won’t pretend to have chemistry education that I don’t actually have. But I kind of suspect that the average snake venom is more labile than the aluminum or mercury compounds used in vaccines. So comparing them seems kind of bullshitty on its face.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m gonna go out on a limb, and say that vary few infants are drinking their intravenous-feeding solutions.

          • Indeed, it goes “directly into the bloodstream.” It’s right there.

          • Charybdis

            Apparently you don’t know how digestion works either.

          • Ron Roy

            You’re the one who doesn’t. Prove to me that swallowing snake venom is deadly. Citations please.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why should he?

          • Ron Roy

            To back up his mouth.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why would a debate with Boyd Haley “back up his mouth”?

          • Ron Roy

            Are you really that ignorant or are you pretending? Offit says vaccines are safe Haley says they’re not.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, and so does Jenny McCarthy. I don’t think Paul Offit debating Jenny McCarthy serves any purpose, either.

            Boyd Haley, as a “credentialed scientist,” knows damn well that the way science progresses is through the publication of studies. The only ones who think “debates” do anything are loons.

            Haley should attend toxicology conferences where discussions about vaccines are taking place, and he can debate the issue all over. But he won’t do that, because he will get laughed out of the room. Because he’s a loon.

          • JGC

            That wouldn’t be the same Boyd Haley who is entry #737 in the Encyclopedia of American Loons, would it? The one who refers to autism as “mad child disease”, and who was injecting autistic children with an industrial chelator until the FDA forced him to stop illegally marketing the chelator as a medical treatment?
            That Boyd Halely?

          • Nick Sanders

            “Mad child disease”? I want to wring his neck…

          • Ron Roy

            Ah yes the Encyclopedia of American Loons. The place where many honest doctors and scientists are relegated to because they dare buck the MEDICAL MAFIA. Not a very credible site.

          • Charybdis

            That’s the one! Ron Roy’s hero and pin-up boy!

          • Sonja Henie

            You know, maybe we’ve been wrong all along. Maybe it’s not deliberate. Maybe Marco/Barzini is really that dense.

          • Mike Stevens

            You want to propose a toxicology study on human infants giving escalating doses of compounds until they establish the threshold for toxicity?
            Good luck with your ethics submission on that one, Barzini.

            We know the vaccine doses are safe because at that dose they are demonstrably safe and without toxicity, and higher doses were not shown to be toxic. We wouldn’t want to do studies giving higher and higher doses, all for nothing.

          • Ron Roy

            Yeah great source the FDA the enforcement arm of the pharmaceutical companies.

          • Daleth

            Barzini, you seem to have omitted some key facts! How surprising! For instance, how much of the aluminum adjuvant in the HepB shot is “absorbed” vs. cleared from the body? And given that newborns typically eat at least 10-12 times a day, isn’t it a little disingenuous to compare the amount of aluminum in ONE SERVING of breastmilk to the amount in a shot?

          • Ron Roy

            Aluminum from vaccines 100% absorption rate and 28 days later there is still some in the body. How much of that aluminum goes to the brain.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Ron your idea that aluminum has any neurotoxic effect as delivered in vaccines has been blown away so many times it’s not funny. Including yesterday.[1]

            400 mcg of aluminum fed to a very low birthweight infant. No difference in cognitive outcomes. Perhaps you need to get back to shilling for the homeopaths?

            [1]http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Ron Roy

            You like all your cohorts have been miseducated it’s time for you to upgrade you’re education: http://www.globalresearch.ca/vaccinations-dilemma-unsafe-at-any-dose/5523299

          • Who?

            Upgrade your (not you’re) own education.

            Idiot.

            Thanks for the laugh though.

          • Ron Roy

            I’ve corrected one of ( your ) shill’s Jenny Higgs on spelling / grammar before ( let’s see what name does she go by now?emmmmmmm..oh …(.No marbles ) so does that make her an idiot?

          • Charybdis

            Is it that you CAN’T learn or you WON’T learn?

          • Ron Roy

            Gee I was going to ask you that. With all the evidence that vaccines are not safe or effective you still defend them. Why is that? Don’t bother answering I know $$$$$$$$$.

          • Charybdis

            I wish that I got paid the big bucks for believing vaccines work and are safe. Tell me, do you believe water is wet and the sky is blue?

            I guess yours is a case of willful ignorance. Good luck with that.

          • Ron Roy

            Some days the sky is wet and the water is blue.

          • Roadstergal

            As I keep noting, I get monetary compensation for disseminating neither the facts around the safety and efficacy of vaccines, nor those around the safety and efficacy of washing one’s hands after answering Nature’s call.

            What are the relative risks of vaccination vs hand washing? I wouldn’t be surprised if the latter comes out worse – the summary statistics around bathroom injuries always make me go “Really??”

          • Ron Roy

            I can and do lean. It’s you that refuses to learn.

          • Who?

            You lot are so predictable. I do wish an interesting, thoughtful, intelligent antivaxxer would come along to play. This is honestly like shooting fish in a barrel.

            When caught out in a clear and obvious error, which is a simple enough one to make, you don’t ignore the challenge, which is what a smart person recognising a little trap would do, or say ‘oh, my bad’ which is what a normal person would do.

            No. You rant and rave about someone else’s (supposed) exact same error, and then impugn that poster’s values.

            Divert, divert, divert.

            It’s a nice model for how you respond to challenges, and a useful standard from which to judge the values behind what you’re doing. Which aren’t much.

            You’re once an idiot for whinging about someone else’s lack of education while writing sloppily, and twice an idiot for not being able to ignore the bait.

            Gonna go for three times?

          • Ron Roy

            Terrible comeback! C- on that one.

          • Who?

            I win.

            Bored w you now.

          • J.B.

            I was just thinking of the current outrage machine I’ve been seeing against 1/1,000,000 increased cancer risk and that’s so minimal, etc…I should set them on this lot and let them argue their extremes!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Ron, I provided you a study that actually tested the claim you presented in that web page and found it to be incorrect.

            Believing baseless claims is actually a downgrade. Too bad you can’t tell the difference.

          • MaineJen

            ALuminum is always present in our blood small amounts. It’s in the food you eat. The usual daily dietary intake of aluminum is 5-10 mg, most of which is filtered out by your kidneys and then excreted, but a small amount will remain in your blood at non-toxic levels (up to 6ng/mL) unless you are a dialysis patient, in which case the level will be higher.*** Having aluminum “present in the body” means absolutely nothing. Come at me when you have evidence that aluminum is present at actual toxic levels.

            ***Source: Mayo Medical Lab http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/8373

            Fun fact: nephrologists recommend that their patients waiting for kidney transplant are fully vaccinated, including the hep B series. Even in dialysis patients who cannot fully clear dietary aluminum from their bodies, immunization is recommended. Your argument is invalid.

          • Nick Sanders

            I think you should list the amount of dietary aluminum in mcg, since Barzini insists on doing that to inflate the appearance. So, don’t say 5-10 mg, say 5000-10000 mcg. It makes the contrast to his “250 mcg” clearer.

          • Ron Roy
          • MaineJen

            LOL, yeah, that looks totally legit:

            “Articles by:
            Dr. Gary G. Kohls
            Disclaimer: The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible for any inaccurate or incorrect statement in this article.”

            Do you have anything with any actual data, from someone who’s not a loon?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yawn, already refuted Ron. Thanks for playing.

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199705293362203

          • Ron Roy

            nemj another journal owned by big pharm.

          • Jonathan Graham

            As usual you haven’t read anything, and wouldn’t have an answer if you did.

            However if you HAD read the article it would be pretty close to impossible to claim that this is somehow biased toward pharmaceutical companies. Do you need a hint?

          • Charybdis

            He would like to buy a vowel.

            Or a modicum of rational thought.

          • You’re a joke. Now you’re questioning the credibility of the NEJM? I think you’re missing the “mo” from the beginning of your name.

          • Mike Stevens

            Brill!

          • Mike Stevens

            Which pharma company owns the NEJM?

          • shay simmons

            “Globalresearch is an anti-“Western” website that can’t distinguish between serious analysis and discreditable junk — and so publishes both. It’s basically the moonbat equivalent to Infowars or WND.
            While some of GlobalResearch’s articles discuss legitimate humanitarian concerns, its view of science, economics, and geopolitics is conspiracist — if something goes wrong, the Jews West didit! The site has long been a crank magnet: If you disagree with “Western” sources on 9/11, or HAARP, or vaccines, or H1N1, or climate change, or anything published by the “mainstream” media, then GlobalResearch is guaranteed to have a page you will love.” Rationalwiki.

          • Ron Roy

            Says Irrationalwiki.

          • Ron Roy

            Debate with Boyd Haley, on the toxicity of aluminum in vaccines, your mentor Doctor Paul Offit has refuse to many times:http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/dachel-media-update-dr-boyd-haley-refutes-dr-paul-offits-vaccine-science.html

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            With good reason.

            It does no good to debate with loons. The problem that scientists have when they debate with cranks is that scientists are honest, and stick to facts. Cranks have no qualms about rattling off an endless string of complete made-up bullshit. People who actually know the truth are pretty much left speechless at the extent of total bullshit, and to counter it all would take far longer than anyone has time for. Moreover, in a debate setting, spending time countering it just comes off as defensive.

            BTW, lest you think I’m projecting, I’m not. This approach is so well known that it has a name: the Gish Gallop. Creationist Duane Gish was an expert at it. And it is the same approach that every crankaloon wants to use. That’s why they call for these bullshit “debates.”

            They want to debate? Easy, show up at a scientific conference. Do some research and make a presentation. That’s where plenty of debates take place. Let Haley do that.

          • Charybdis

            False Equivalency doesn’t help either. The crazies are given equal time with the scientists/researchers/people who know the truth and people think that the crazy side is somehow equal, but opposite to the science side. Which is SO not the case, but in the “interests of being fair and balanced” they put an opposing side/viewpoint right alongside the science. This leads people to believe that both sides have equal studies, data, etc, when it is JUST NOT TRUE.

          • Ron Roy

            Why is it when well credentialed scientist disagree with the safety of vaccines all of a sudden they’re called loons etc.? I’ll answer that for you: it’s the power of the pharmaceutical companies at work. They will try and destroy anyone who tries to expose their vaccines and drugs for what they really are.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why is it when well credentialed scientist

            Boyd Haley is not a toxicologist, he is a PhD chemist.

            Which makes him no more credentialed to disagree with the safety of vaccines than I am.

            I am also a PhD chemist, and I say Boyd Haley is a loon.

            Do you accept that, or do you dismess the opinion of a “credentialed scientist’?

            And I have no connections with pharmaceutical companies.

          • Ron Roy

            Dr Boyd Haley is also a biochemist and biochemists are routinely hired as toxicologists. So yes he is more credentialed and qualified than you to disagree on the safety of vaccines. Boyd Haley, Ph.D. received a doctorate in Chemistry/Biochemistry at
            Washington State University. He was an NIH Postdoctoral Scholar in the
            Department of Physiology, Yale University Medical School from 1971 to
            1974.He has been a professor and Chairman of the Department of
            Chemistry at the University of Kentucky since 1996. In the past 17
            years, Dr. Haley has emphasized studies on the biochemistry of
            Alzheimer’s disease. His research in the biochemical aberrancies
            in Alzheimer’s disease also led to his identifying mercury toxicity as
            a major factor, perhaps even a causal factor for this disease. He was
            one of the first to propose that the organic-mercury preservative
            Thimerosal in vaccines was the most likely toxic agent involved in Gulf
            War Syndrome and autism related disorders. In the past few years, Dr.
            Haley has testified before numerous government agencies on the effects
            of mercury toxicity from dental amalgams and vaccines.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Dr Boyd Haley is also a biochemist

            ..who, if you look at his publication history has not one paper about toxicology unless you count his hate-on about mercury. His thesis wasn’t on toxicology either.

            Boris Derjaguin is one of the most renown (in the actual sense not in the way the people who are vaccine critical often pile on adjectives in order to make people sound more impressive) Russian physical chemists. He was fooled by the polywater experiments. Boyd isn’t a tenth of the chemist Derjaguin was. So it seems reasonable that Boyd has at least Boris Derjaguin’s capacity to be fooled.

          • shay simmons

            Boyd Haley also has a direct financial interest in keeping the mercury-poisoning myth alive, but hey, that’s inconsequential.

          • Jonathan Graham

            OSR#1 is hard to find now. I should ask my local chelation quack if it’s still around.

          • Nick Sanders

            Man, polywater… That was an impressive lesson in basic cleanliness protocol.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Dr Boyd Haley is also a biochemist and biochemists are routinely hired as toxicologists

            Organic chemists are also routinely hired by the polymer industry, but although I am an organic chemist, I don’t know squat about polymers. Being an organic chemist does not make me an expert on polymers, and being a biochemist does not make Boyd Haley an expert on toxicology.

            You don’t understand how expertise works, do you? Biochemists CAN BE experts in toxicologist (I know toxicologists who are biochemists), but being a biochemist is not sufficient. To be an expert in toxicology, you actually have to study toxicology.

            And as far as I know, his claims about mercury and Alzheimers are not at all accepted by the vast majority of toxicologists OR biochemists. You know, real, credentialed toxicologists.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, that 1997 paper where they made rats breathe mercury and found it affected their tubulin? Revolutionized the field, that did.

          • Ron Roy

            ”And as far as I know,” You know very little. But that aside if Haley doesn’t know what he’s talking about why doesn’t Offit debate him publicly and show the world that he’s wrong?

          • Charybdis

            Perhaps because it would create a false equivalency by portraying the two sides as equals. Which they aren’t. And to be clear, Offit is the right one and offering a “toxins, toxins everywhere” anti-vax shill and conspiracy theorist crank as some sort of “equal” who is able to effectively debate a topic is giving the general public the wrong message.

          • Jonathan Graham

            but that aside if Haley doesn’t know what he’s talking about why doesn’t Offit debate him publicly and show the world that he’s wrong?

            A lot of reasons…
            i) Haley is less than a nobody – Offit debating him would raise Haley’s profile even if Haley lost.
            ii) Debate and science are two orthogonal skills. Someone can be a skilled debater, know almost nothing about what they are talking about and still convince people.
            iii) Offit probably has better things to do with his time.

          • Ron Roy

            Haley is less than a nobody? Johnny if that’s the case I cant even think of a word that could properly describe how low you fit in the scheme of things. Haley’s credentials exceed those of Offit’s by a mile:http://herballure.com/Authors/BoydHaley/index.html

          • Roadstergal

            “Dr Boyd Haley is also a biochemist and biochemists are routinely hired as toxicologists”

            If they have the requisite training and experience. “Tom has two feet, and people with two feet are routinely hired as bus drivers.” Erm, helpful but not sufficient.

          • Ron Roy

            He does have the requisite training and experience and if he doesn’t ( he does ) why won’t Paul Offit debate him. Seems to me if Haley doesn’t know what he’s taking about it would be a way to silence him forever.

          • Jonathan Graham

            He does have the requisite training and experience

            There is simply no evidence that he has ANY toxicology training or history of working in the field. Again you would know this if you read his publishing history. Instead you make things up. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            Citations please.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How do you do citations for “no evidence”? That’sounds stupid.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Read his publication history. It’s not hard to find.

          • Wren

            I’m guessing that all of his toxicology publications have been supressed by the evil pharma corporations who have still allowed him to publish BS all over the place except in scientific journals.

          • kfunk937

            Indeed. Including ones like this, wherein they conclude that lower mercury levels in autistic childrens’ hair (first haircut) means that the test is invalid, rather than their hypothesis.

          • shay simmons

            You left out “Dr Haley markets a kit for testing children’s hair for levels of mercury, and used to sell a home chelator until the FDA made him stop.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But such impeccable credentials!

          • Ron Roy

            If honesty is a credential I’m guilty!

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s only a conflict of interest when people who disagree with Ron do it!

          • Ron Roy

            And doctor Gallo the discoverer of the HIV virus invented the HIV blood test which made him very wealthy. So your point is? The FDA stopped him not because his home chelator didn’t work they stopped him because drug companies don’t want any competition. All your comments concerning Haley has nothing to do with the fact that he made Offit look bad, concerning his stance on aluminum in vaccines, and Offit refused to debate Haley publicly. Hale is far more qualified than Offit concerning the toxicity of aluminum in vaccines.

          • shay simmons

            The difference is that Dr Gallo actually discovered something that worked. Haley is a pure con artist.

          • Ron Roy

            Gallo’s theory was destroyed by Peter Duesberg PhD. and because of this the MEDICAL MAFIA tried to destroy him. He was a god and called the world’s foremost retro-virologist until he made a mistake ( not really ) and went against the future potential profits of the MEDICAL MAFIA. Every aspect of the medical community is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies.

          • Wren

            You have a real problem with reality, don’t you?

          • Ron Roy

            No that’s your department.

          • Wren

            As is made clear by the fact you require a massive, multinational conspiracy to support your beliefs.

            How exactly does one fall so far down the rabbit hole that even lack of evidence for your belief is evidence for it?

          • corblimeybot

            You’re really shitty to compare Dr. Gallo to fucking Haley.

          • Ron Roy

            Actually Gallo is a pos.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Why is it when well credentialed scientist disagree with the safety of vaccines all of a sudden they’re called loons etc

            Already proven wrong and agreed to by you Ron. Scientists/Journals have had no problem publishing critiques of vaccines when the evidence supported it. Rotashield and Pandemrix are two examples.

            Since you agree that major journals do publish articles critiquing the safety of vaccines. I think you can agree that your argument here is refuted and you will never use it again. Right? Anything else would be unethical…which you are…but try to change ok?

          • Ron Roy

            They publish negative articles when the proof is so overwhelming that if they didn’t it would become obvious that they are biased. It’s called controlled opposition. They pretend to be objective when in reality they’re not.

          • Mike Stevens

            Wrestling with a pig, as they say.

          • Daleth

            Um, no.

          • Ron Roy

            Um, yes.

          • Wren

            Evidence? You do have some, right?

            I mean actual, peer reviewed studies. That’s a plural. More than one, and non-overlapping authors please, just to reduce the risk of bias.

            While you find those, I will point out that there is always some aluminium in the body. Yes, only a small amount from ingestion is absorbed, but we do eat every day, often many times per day (especially infants). While that small percentage that is absorbed is mostly eliminated quickly, it is not instantaneous and a small amount will remain in the body.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Evidence? You do have some, right?” Why can’t any of you get original and stop using the same sound bites. Hey wait …. thanks I’ll use this one in the future.

          • Wren

            I know. It’s so hard to understand why people want evidence rather than just accepting your word for it, isn’t it?

          • Ron Roy

            Many people take my word for it.

          • Charybdis

            How much do you pay them to agree with you?

          • Ron Roy

            $0.00

          • Ron Roy

            Peer reviewed ah yes those articles / papers written by ghost writers ( employees of pharmaceutical companies ) that are then signed by well know scientists for cash. Yeah very reliable sources of information. Whoever call the tune pays the fiddler.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Just so we’re clear, you agree that consensus of scientific studies agree that vaccines are safe?

          • Ron Roy

            No I don’t. Many scientists don’t agree but those who don’t are relegated into obscurity. Medical journals ( how many time do I have to say this? ) are biased towards the pharmaceutical industry.

          • Wren

            The question was about the consensus of scientific studies. If those that disagree are either unpublished or relegated to obscurity, that would leave a consensus that does agree.

          • Wren

            Many people believe stupid things.

          • Ron Roy

            Yeah you’re living proof.

          • Wren

            You’re right. I once believed that “natural birth” was really important and C-sections were terrible except in the worst of cases. I once believed that I could know as much about the things I “researched” on the internet as the scientists who spent their lives actually researching them. I once believed that breastfeeding was all important and baby wearing was the only way to go.

            Then I learned more and now know better.

            It’s sad that you are unable to learn and grow out of your unevidenced beliefs.

          • Ron Roy

            C sections ARE at times necessary however everything else you said is wrong. You were once right but you’ve gone to the dark side.

          • Wren

            Hey, you accept one piece of reality! Maybe you could work towards some more.

          • Ron Roy

            Aluminum is bad enough but there’s also all the other ingredients in vaccines that can and do cause problems. It’s not nice to try and fool mother nature.

          • Wren

            It’s not nice to try and fool mother nature?

            I assume you have an equal problem with insulin to fool mother nature’s attempts to kill off diabetics.

            I’m pretty sure mother nature did not create the internet. You are fooling mother nature’s intent that we only communicate with those within hearing of our voice. How dare you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Uh, none.
            The tiny amount of aluminium retained in the body is in the bones, Ron.
            How come you, as the world’s foremost expert on aluminium pharmacokinetics (along with Barzini) don’t know that?

          • Mike Stevens

            Particularly a shot that is given 3 times in the first 6 months of life, yet a baby will take around 8,000 feeds in the first 6 months of life.

  • corblimeybot

    Visited my grandmother this weekend. She’s in her mid-80s. She told me how she got measles and pertussis back to back as a child. As soon as she got over measles, she immediately got pertussis. She developed pneumonia from the pertussis. That’s about when she became a “sickly” child who had persistent health problems. (And her family was doing fine financially when she was a child, so her living situation was clean. Can’t blame sanitation.)

    Not too long after that measles and pertussis barrage, she got scarlet fever that damaged her heart. (Now that we know that measles makes kids more vulnerable to disease for an extended period of time, that seems like it might be relevant.) She pointed out chickenpox scars she still has 80 years later. She told me how amazing she had thought the polio vaccine was.

    I told her how terrified I had been, that my child would contract measles, pertussis, chickenpox, and so forth before she could get her own shots. She said, “But she wouldn’t have, right? They have vaccines for all of those now?” Essentially asking why was I worried, since the other kids were obviously getting their shots. I told her that wasn’t so obvious in some communities around where I live.

    No surprises here: She has never heard of anti-vaxxers, and had no clue why anyone would possibly be one.

    • Ron Roy

      Gee I had the measles, scarlet fever, mumps,and chickenpox as a child and I have no health problems. My mother cooked delicious but not healthy meals. A staple was meat and potatoes.If your grandmother would have had a better diet she would not have been sickly.

      • Amazed

        Hey, Rob Roy wannabe! Do take Barzini, the number thing and all your fellow loonies and go find yourselves a place in the heaven of humblebragging and benign childhood illnesses that only infect a percentage of a person. You have no place among normal people, not when you ridicule the plight of those who were damaged by a VPD.

        And now to the normal people around here: Perhaps if all those wee littwe kiddis anti–vaxxers weep for because they got all kind of diseases, from autism from falling from their tricycle a day after vaccination and hurt tweir poow wittle awms had better diets, they would not have been so damaged by vaccines. After all, the vast majority of those who undergo vaccinations are not just fine but finer. Healthier. Only those who live with abusive parents who don’t feed them the right way have adverse reactions.

      • demodocus

        Good for you. My mother was not a meat and potatoes cook, still lost half my hearing to scarlet fever.

      • Azuran

        Perfectly healthy kids died of those disease all the time, It was not at all only the sickly or unhealthy kids that did.

        But even IF it did, you are saying that anyone who is not 100% healthy deserve to die? My grandmother’s cousin just deserved to die of polio?
        Wow, you fail so much at simply being a human being.

      • MaineJen

        WOW. Great job there. You turned “I was lucky not to have any lasting complications from those illnesses, as others did” into “Your grandmother’s diet was obviously substandard” in 10 seconds flat. Great job.

        In other news, my mom and all 3 of her siblings got measles, mumps and chicken pox during the course of one winter and all missed months of school, but luckily none of them had any lasting ill effects. My mother went on to get all 4 of her children fully vaccinated, because she is not a fool.

        The only such illness I had as a child was chicken pox. I still have painful scars on the back of my scalp and on my torso. I got both of my children vaccinated for chicken pox and everything else. Because I’m not a fool.

      • corblimeybot

        Fuck you to hell and burn hard while you’re there, you useless fucking dipshit.

        My grandmother has always been kind of a health nut, as long as anyone can remember. Her family was pretty well-off when lots of people’s families were not, and she had access to good food because of that good fortune. My great-grandmother was an amazing cook and didn’t just make them a meat and potatoes diet. You don’t know shit. You’re a useless fuck with no life.

        • Ron Roy

          lol

      • corblimeybot

        And you know what’s really funny about your idiocy, you piece of talking shit?

        My other grandmother grew up in some of the the worst poverty imaginable. She had to get massive vitamin shots as a young adult, because of her years of severe malnutrition. She lived with dirt floors and outhouses. Her sister died of a gastrointestinal illness at age 5 or 6. She was eating significantly worse than “meat and potatoes” a lot of the time.

        Guess what? She survived her childhood diseases without consequences. They never caused her long-lasting problems. She never coped with them for the rest of her life, the way my well-off, well-fed grandmother did.

        Tell me, you disgusting asshole. Why did she do so well, and my other grandmother suffered so much? This grandmother was eating a abysmally nutritionally poor diet for her entire childhood. The other one had doting parents with money and cooking skills. How does your morally bankrupt theory figure into that?

        • Joe

          Trust me,you will NEVER get a straight answer from RON,he is the king of dodgers.

          • Ron Roy

            Joe go to bed.

          • Joe

            Still have not answered my question.dodger.Yes I will go to bed when it suits me,dodger.

          • Ron Roy

            I thought the Dodgers were a baseball team???

          • Joe

            You thought wrong AGAIN,you are the king of dodgers,still having trouble with English I see? I will help you here,if I meant the baseball team I would have spelled it with a capital D but I spelled it with a small d because I was referring to you,so off to school to brush up on your English,then we can talk about vaccination.

        • Ron Roy

          ”She survived her childhood diseases without consequences. They never
          caused her long-lasting problems.” Thanks for making my case. Vaccines for the innocuous diseases are not necessary.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Innocuous”? Wow, you’re even more full of shit than I thought.

        • sabelmouse

          individual constitution, psychological effects. so many different things.
          and of course exceptions to every rule.

          • corblimeybot

            No, you goddamned moron. No. How are those delusional of anti-Orwellian rebellion grandeur treating you today, anyway?

      • Linden

        This is a poe, right? Please tell me this is a poe.

        • Amazed

          Let me reply. You won’t like it, though.
          This guy has been a constant presence at Naturopathic diaries. He believes what he says.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I first met Ron Roy when he was going around challenging people to debate him in his home town. The loser would pay for the others expenses. I stepped up to that plate and started trying to discus terms how we run the debate, how we do the vote, who gets to vote.

            ….and he stepped down.

          • Joe

            Yeah I also challenged him on another Forum,but he ran away

      • Roadstergal

        “Gee I had the measles, scarlet fever, mumps,and chickenpox as a child and I have no health problems.”

        I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that. Going through all of those VPDs seems to have severely affected your reasoning ability – and turned you into a bit of an asshole.

        • Ron Roy

          ”and turned you into a bit of an asshole.” Only towards those who advocate the harming and killing of babies through vaccines. I fight dirty to protect the innocent.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, you’re so noble. Yawn.

          • Ron Roy

            Thank You ( sarcasm )

          • Charybdis

            Legitimate citations for “the harming and killing of babies through vaccines”, if you don’t mind.

          • Wren

            Yes, you fight to protect those innocent VPDs that might otherwise be eradicated like their brother (sister?) smallpox.

          • Ron Roy

            Brush upon the real history of the smallpox vaccine then get back to me.

          • Nick Sanders

            What part of the history would you care to know about? Insufflation, variolation, vaccination, or the complete lack of smallpox in the modern world?

          • Wren

            The “real” history? Where would I find that? Which peer reviewed research?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I fight dirty to protect the innocent.

            Are you confessing that you lie now?

          • Ron Roy

            ”Are you confessing that you lie now? ” No Johnny I haven’t taken up your bad habit .

          • Jonathan Graham

            What is fighting dirty then if not lying to people?

          • Nick Sanders

            Victim blaming and conspiratorial accusations, for a start.

            The lying is just a side business, purely unrelated to fighting dirty. 😉

          • shay simmons

            You don’t fight dirty, you flat-out lie.

          • corblimeybot

            You aren’t protecting shit. You’re ranting like a maniac on the internet.

          • Who?

            Mind you don’t drop that white hat you’re affecting!

            Little grammar lesson for you right there.

            You’re welcome!

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Gee I had the measles, scarlet fever, mumps,and chickenpox as a child and I have no health problems

        For being so healthy, you were sure sick a lot.

        • Ron Roy

          Bad start had to learn the ” secrets ‘ to health by myself doctors did know the ” secrets ”.

      • Nick Sanders
      • Who?

        Goodness you’re an unpleasant piece of work. Victim blaming now to add to your collection.

  • Al

    Haha, I already tried this a few months ago. I couldn’t find any evidence or published (legitimate) research. I was doing it in an effort to prove the anti-vaxxers wrong. As a nursing student, I have access to dozens of research journals. I decided to humor the anti-vaxxers and look for their “research.” Nada. Zilch. And what they were citing was total junk. It is a damn shame that these people do not know how to assess research for quality and reliability or how to determine if so.ething is a credible medical website. Their overconfidence in their ignorance is so dangerous!

    • DigMed

      Why don’t you go on to medical school? No knock on nursing, mind you, but I judging by your comment I’d say you’re well-suited for it.

  • Anthrax

    Any medicine or anything you put into a body has an effect, and always risk to side effect. Everyone knows that, silly whabbit!

    • Nick Sanders

      That’s true. Vaccines, however, have some of the lowest risks of side effects of anything around.

      • Roadstergal

        I had a higher risk of side effects from bicycling to work this morning.

        • Azuran

          My risk of developing thromboembolism from sitting down to write this comment is probably higher than my risk of having a vaccine reaction.

        • Jonathan Graham

          …and those people who drive cars?! Are they crazy? They are so much more deadly than vaccines.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      True enough. Which is why doctors ask you things like whether you have any allergies or prior bad reactions before you get a vaccine. 99% of the time, even if you have it’s irrelevant, but, as you say, 1 time in 100,000 or a million it can matter. Vaccinating everyone who can be vaccinated is especially important for those rare people who cannot be vaccinated safely.

    • Gene

      I know someone who had encephalitis from the flu. I mentioned it to someone once and they responded, “the flu shot?” No, the flu. “You mean the vaccine, right?” No, influenza. The illness. “As a side effect from the vaccine?” No you twit! She never got the shot! And now she has permanent brain damage. From the flu.

    • Wren

      Definitely true. It applies to bacteria and viruses too. I’m currently fighting all the crappy side effects of a cold virus.

  • Here’s a quick reference guide for anybody new to this discussion:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e32073e17216e6d6198a2a7aea3b41f1ca3b3689a76dee9277e7793f53d6a1c.jpg

    • Sonja Henie

      Please note, those of you dumping on nurses on the Dunning-Kruger thread, there’s only ONE RN on this list!

      • You, my friend, have no worries of ever being included on such a list!

      • corblimeybot

        I hope I didn’t seem like I was dumping on RNs (with my comment about the nurse who said depression wasn’t real and etc). I’m actually a big fan of nurses. Commence personal anecdote:

        During my hospital admission for severe preeclampsia and other fun stuff, I was super screwed up on the magnesium and lack of sleep, and really had no idea what was going on. The nurses got me through that mess. They brought me seemingly thousands of popsicles. A nurse coached me while I pushed. A nurse fed my baby right after she was born, because I was so sick and so exhausted and my husband was freaking out. That same nurse noticed the next day that I’d lost enough blood that I needed a transfusion – and she was the ONLY one who noticed that. Another nurse teamed up with two or three OBs to talk me into taking the blood I needed. I still fondly think of all of these nurses. I remember their names. They were truly great.

        I also proctor the NCLEX exams at work. Nurses are largely a delight to proctor, if you can believe such a thing could be “delightful”. There are definitely exams that attract people who are harder to proctor than others (no idea why), but nurses are way up there with the best of them.

        I really respect nurses in general. That’s why it surprises me so much when I meet one who is godawful! I have had such a high success rate with nurses.

        • Sonja Henie

          No, not you.

          Thanks for the kind words. In every group there are a few “bad apples”.

    • Barzini

      I was going to judge for myself what these people had to say

      Howevr, now that you’ve warned me that they are loons and put their heads in a power point box underneath a critical banner I won’t bother, I’ll just listen to the CC from now on and never listen to the opposing side again

      • Before you bother checking out the other side, it’s always a good idea to know the credibility of those giving you your information.

        This is not an argument with two equal sides. It is the great majority of the scientific and medical community vs. a fringe group of pseudoscience-spewing quacks and mint bloggers with doctorates from Google U.

        • Barzini

          Thanks, I won’t even look now, I’ll trust the CDC and the FDA from now on

          Whenever anyone doubts what they say, I’ll come them a ‘loon’ also

          • Hypothetically…if you were worried about the CDC and FDA being corrupt, you could look to see what other countries say.

            Look for evidence, Barzini, not middle ground.

          • Barzini

            Such faith

          • Nope. I look for evidence.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why wouldn’t you? Can you talk about the people in the CDC and FDA who are involved and some of their positions?

          • Barzini

            I’m convinced, when someone says something now, I’ll first consult the CDC, if they say the person is a loon, I’ll not listen to them

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You didn’t answer my question. When it comes to public health, why wouldn’t you consult the CDC and FDA? I don’t know about you, but I’must not an expert in immunology. So why shouldn’t our first source be those who are?

            I’ve asked and you didn’t answer: do you know who are those in the CDC that make their recommendations?

          • Barzini

            I do consult official sources like the CDC and FDA but I don’t slavishly accept everything they say either

            I think corruption is rife in our society, whether it be at the level of politics, finance, arms production or health and peer reviewed science

            So I’m skeptical, and when a whistle blower, journalist or researcher speaks – I listen

            But of course I also listen to what the official sources (eg CDC) have to say and I would also tell others to listen to the official advice

          • Wren

            So you do believe, or at least believe in the possibility, in a world wide conspiracy present in nearly every country to promote vaccines when they are not safe?

            You believe the miniscule number of “whistle blowers” who often have stories that contradict each other over the many thousands of researchers, experts, health care systems and national agencies that have found vaccines to be safe and good for public health?

            Do you understand that is what you are saying here?

          • Barzini

            What are you talking about?

            Nearly all of the leading anti-vaxers are promoters of vaccination, they are simply calling for the removal of certain vaccines (eg Wakefield with MMR), the removal of certain ingredients (eg mercury. aluminium) or a less heavy or more spaced out vaccine schedule

            They aren’t claiming that vaccines are part of some evil depopulation agenda

            There’s no need to believe in some kind of evil James Bond style world wide conspiracy, when a product is brought to market and starts generating billions of dollars per year, you’re damned right I think corruption could exist in an ability to keep the product in the market for as long as possible

            I said I listen to whistle blowers – and I hope you do too, doesn’t mean I believe them unquestioningly

          • Wren

            Let’s start with Wakefield, who was intending to bring his own, competing vaccine to market. His study was withdrawn and he has been struck off the medical register here in the UK for the unethical work he did on that study. You feel he needs to be listened to? I certainly do not.

            Mercury has been removed from all but the multidose flu vaccine over a decade ago. Why is it even still being brought up? It’s removal failed to decrease autism rates, by the way, which is what the anti-vaxers claimed would happen.

            Aluminum has been addressed over and over here. No evidence has ever been found that aluminium in vaccines is problematic.

            Why space out the schedule? You prefer keeping infants vulnerable to disease for longer?

            Why a “less heavy” schedule? Again, you prefer children be vulnerable to disease? Do you realise that the US schedule now actually involves a smaller antigen load than the schedule 40 years ago? And that the total antigen load is likely less than your average toddler comes into contact with in a single day?

            A little note on spacing schedules: the UK actually gives many vaccines younger than the US. This includes pertussis. At 4 I saw my baby sister hospitalised for pertussis and she was lucky to survive. Her doctors believed that her partial immunisation (she was too young to be fully vaccinated) helped her to survive. Imagine how incredibly happy I was to find that, as we lived in the UK rather than the US where I grew up, my baby could be fully vaccinated for pertussis months earlier. Both of my children were vaccinated the day they were old enough.

            You believe that there is enough corruption to keep vaccines on the market worldwide, under a number of different health care systems and public health systems run by a variety of governments but it is not some world wide conspiracy? The NHS would gladly drop the cost (in time and money) of vaccination if it were not effective. Do you believe this corruption extends to the many, many studies showing vaccine effectiveness and failing to find a link between vaccines and the many illnesses they are claimed to cause? If not, why are the studies showing vaccine effectiveness and no links? If so, how is this not a huge, worldwide conspiracy?

          • Wren

            And just FYI, people who are claiming that current vaccines are not safe (despite many studies), cause autism (despite many, many studies) and they are just working for safer vaccines are pretty much anti-vaccination.

            They may be for some theoretical, impossible to achieve 100% safe for all people at all times vaccine, but they are not for vaccines in reality and are certainly not promoters.

          • Barzini

            Two of the most famous anti-vaxers I can think of are Wakefield and Sears, both of them vaccinate their own children and Sears even vaccinates other children

            They both continually say they are pro-vaccine and tell people that they should vaccinate

            If they actually secretly want people to stop vaccinating they are going about it in a funny way

          • Wren

            Sears also gives lessons in how to avoid vaccination, advises parents who don’t want to vaccinate to hide in the herd and provides medical exemptions based on false information for cash. He is currently being investigated by the CA medical board and is ethically extremely dubious.

            Wakefield, well, I’ve already addressed him.

            Both use antivaccine fears to enrich themselves and stroke their egos. Neither would be known by anyone if not for their stoking the fears of anti-vaxers.

            The very fact they vaccinate their own children while scaring others away from vaccines shows their character.

          • Barzini

            I’m not a fan of them, but their message is very consistent, they are pro vaccination but believe their are safety problems with vaccines

            I’m not arguing that they are correct, but there’s simply no way that you can argue that they secretly want people to stop vaccinating – they don’t

            There are actually people out there who do want an end to all vaccination – they are perfectly honest about it

          • Wren

            “Safer vaccines” is a ploy used by a large segment of anti-vaxers. See, it looks bas to say they don’t care if babies and children die, suffer complications or just plain suffer through illnesses, so arguing against vaccines altogether is a harder sell. Just saying they aren’t safe enough allows all the anti-vax rhetoric (including fears around aluminium, your fave) while avoiding criticism of a pro-disease position.

          • Barzini

            A ploy for what? You make it sound like it’s a secret strategy of some kind……

            BY all means attacks these guys for being wrong, but I don’t get why you think they secretly want to stop people vaccinating

            Sears even has his own vaccine schedule

          • Wren

            Money. Money. Money.

            Sears sells books, has a medical practice that caters to anti-vaxers and yes, has his own based on no research at all vaccine schedule. Two actually. They both leave children unprotected for extended periods, have no medical research supporting them and he uses anti-vax misconceptions and fears to sell his book, his schedule and himself.

            Wakefield’s career as a doctor is non-existent. He makes a living fighting the current vaccine schedule.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wakefield also had the most blatantly obvious conflict of interest possible short of accepting a bag full of cash in Trafalgar Square in broad daylight.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Ask Sears for evidence that his vaccine schedule is safer than the CDC version, and he admits there is none. HE says it. This is your hero?

            And I can’t believe you can fawn over Sears while dismissing Offit for making money. How much money has Sears made from peddling his crap?

          • Barzini

            For the last time, I don’t support Sears

            I am simply saying that he is obviously not secretly trying to bring an end to vaccination

            He vaccinates his own children, other children and even has a vaccine schedule

            He believes in vaccination – if you can’t understand this incredibly simple point then do me a favor and stop replying

          • Maud Pie

            Assuming, for sake of argument, that Sears vaccinates his own children (I have no knowledge of the veracity of that statement)–that does not negate the overwhelming evidence that he crusades to undermine public confidence in vaccines with false claims about their safety, that he undermines public health by touting an alternate schedule that does no good and that harms children by delaying protection, and that he aids and abets parents who reject vaccines for non-medical reasons. If he does indeed have his own children vaccinated, that does not boost his credibility. Quite the opposite: it means that he protects his own kids while encouraging suckers to leave their kids unprotected.

            You really need to learn to recognize a self-serving disclaimer when you see one. “I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m only anti unsafe vaccines ” is a self-serving disclaimer when the speaker is misrepresenting safety concerns.

          • corblimeybot

            Let’s find out what he believes if he’s stripped of his ability to practice medicine. Let’s find out if he keeps paying mushymouthed lip service to medical consensus when he doesn’t have to in order to keep his job.

          • Nick Sanders

            You don’t support him, you just spent days posing a video of him and asking “Well what about this guy?!” despite having his claims refuted several times.

          • Sonja Henie

            And supporting many of is positions.

          • Charybdis

            Barzini has no grasp of nuance, subtlety and “reading between the lines.” S/he’s about as deft as a sledgehammer and paints everything in broad strokes.

            They are using their status as “medical professionals” (and I use that term loosely) to cater and pander to people’s fears about “vaccine safety”. There is already a long track record of vaccine safety and improvements in vaccines over the years. They are safer now, and contain less of the infective agent than they have in years past, thanks to adjuvants which actually make vaccines safer.

            But Barzini is trying REALLY, REALLY hard to sound reasonable about all this. “Wakefield and Sears are PRO vaccination, they just want safer vaccines!” “They vaccinated their own children and vaccinate people every day! How can they be anti-vax when they are doing that?” etc. S/he just comes across as a straw-clutcher who is moving the goalposts at every single opportunity.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Wakefield forged his results and performed unethical medical procedures on children without proper informed consent. All in the service of getting his own version of the MMR on the market and replacing the current MMR. Aren’t you in the least concerned with his money motives?

          • Barzini

            Aren’t you the least concerned with the fact that Dr. Paul A Offit of the CDC has made millions of dollars from vaccines ?

          • Nick Sanders

            He was a member, not even the chair, of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. I’m curious who you think would have been a better member.

          • Barzini

            Maybe not a guy who made millions of dollars from vaccines

          • Nick Sanders

            Had he made that money at the time he served on the CDC committee?

          • Sonja Henie

            I know. Here’s some information.
            http://kwomblescountering.blogspot.com/2009/09/paul-offits-mythical-millions-v-2-by.html

            He did not vote to approve Rotateq, the vaccine he and two others invented.

          • Sonja Henie

            Offit doesn’t work for the CDC.

          • Nick Sanders

            He was a member of the ACIP, although I’m having trouble finding out when and for how long.

          • shay simmons
          • Barzini

            Oh look, it’s the person who thinks drinking breast milk and being vaccinated is the same thing

          • Sonja Henie

            Me? What are you talking about Jagoff?

          • Sonja Henie

            Take a flying leap.

          • Barzini

            yeah, cause ingestion is the same as injection

            keep saying it, maybe it will become true

          • Sonja Henie

            You are the most ignorant poster I’ve seen here in a long time. Try this, if you can read it. Maybe you can get someone to read it to you.
            https://vaxplanations.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/239/

          • Sonja Henie

            You know ass*hole, maybe you can post a quote of mine where I said that.

          • Sonja Henie

            When did I say that, Jagoff? Post a quote.

          • Wren

            No, why would I be?

            This is the field he worked in pretty much his entire working life and he is the co-creator of a vaccine that has saved many, many infants’ lives.

            Are you concerned his co-creator has made millions (assuming that even is in the correct range)?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Not particularly, no. Offit produced honest data ethically and got a vaccine licensed based on it. Which bit should I be concerned about? Also he’s with CHOP not the CDC. But I suppose opposing the big, bad government makes you feel better than admitting that you’re harassing a pediatrician who spends his time saving children.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So I’m skeptical, and when a whistle blower, journalist or researcher speaks – I listen

            A journalist? Why would you listen to them?

            And whistleblower? There are the occasional claimed “whistleblowers” but seemingly, nothing they say pains out. But make no mistake, Bob Sears, Andy Wakefield, Sheri Tennpenny and Suzanne Humphries aren’t “whistleblowers.” They are standard quacks.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, Brian Deer was a journalist, and he ripped Wakefield a new one.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But despite Deer’s efforts, the real backlash against Wakefield didn’t come until his paper got retracted.

            You could certainly credit Brian for that, but even there, it was not until someone legitimate stepped up that people took it seriously.

          • Roadstergal

            Sadly, though, I think the public at large finds Wakefield’s massive financial COI more relevant than the science. Or perhaps just more understandable?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Perhaps. But I noticed a huge change in attitude when the paper got retracted. You could talk about all the problems with the paper, but not until the journal said “No more” that it got taken seriously.

          • Linden

            I’m not sure the CDC has a loon list. How could they keep track of all the stupidity? And there is no cure for stupid. I’d rather they continued working on disease control.

          • Barzini

            Concern about pumping aluminium into a new born baby = stupid ?

            What is the dose limit for injection of aluminium into a new born baby anyway?

          • Wren

            I suppose it is far more likely that the CDC, the FDA and their equivalents internationally are all a part of some grand conspiracy than it is that anti-vaxers are wrong.

          • DigMed

            That’s your usual m.o. anyway so no surprise there.

          • Sarah

            Course you will love. Anyone who believes that, I have a rather lovely seafront property in Derby I’d like to sell you.

      • How about you check out their research first?

        It’s easy: All you have to do run an author search for them in Pubmed.

    • Ron Roy

      You got it wrong these people are HEROES and I’ll add to that list of heroes doctors and scientist who dared risk all they have and dare go against the MEDICAL MAFIA:

      Doctors and Scientists with Concerns About Vaccines

      Shizuo Akira, MD, PhD

      David Amaral, PhD, MIND Institute, UC-Davis

      François-Jérôme Authier, Professor, PhD

      David Ayoub, MD, Radiologist

      Anne-Catherine Bachoud-Levia, PhD

      Toni Bark, MD

      David S. Baskin, PhD

      Denis Bedoret, PhD

      Russell Blaylock, MD, CCN, former clinical assistant professor of
      neurosurgery at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson,
      MS. and is currently a visiting professor of biology at Belhaven
      University, Jackson, MI

      Mary Ann Block, DO

      T. Bobrowicz, PhD

      Kenneth Bock, MD

      Marie-Françoise Boissea, PhD

      Subbarao Bondada, PhD

      Jeff Bradstreet, MD

      Pierre Brugierese, PhD

      Julie Buckley, MD

      Thomas Burbacher, MD

      Fabrice Bureau, PhD

      Rashid Buttar, DO, FAAPM, FACAM, FAAIM

      Stephanie F. Cave, MS, MD, FAAFP

      E. Cernichiari, PhD

      Pierre Cesaroa, PhD

      Lakshman Chelvarajan

      T. Chen, PhD

      Xavier Chevalierf, PhD

      Shiv Chopra, MSc, PhD

      Stephanie Christner, DO

      T. Clarkson, PhD

      John Barthelow Classen, MD

      Cevayir Coban, PhD

      Maryline Couettea

      Andy Cutler, PhD (research chemist)

      Jeffrey Dach, MD

      Josep Dalmau, MD, PhD

      Vicky DeBold, PhD, RN

      Jamie Deckoff-Jones, MD

      Christophe J Desmet, PhD

      Mary Catherine DeSoto, PhD

      Richard Deth, PhD

      J.G. Dórea, PhD

      Peter Doshi, PhD Johns Hopkins School of Medicine

      M. Duszczyk, PhD

      Steven Edelson, MD, Director of the Autism Research Institute in San Diego

      (The late) Mayer Eisenstein, MD

      (The late) Frank Engley Jr. PhD

      Håkan Eriksson, PhD

      Christopher Exley, PhD

      Carl Feinstein, MD

      Peter Fletcher, PhD, former Chief Scientific Officer, at the UK Department of Health

      Lisa Freund, PhD

      Paula A. Garay, PhD

      Robert F. Garry, PhD

      Thomas V. Getchell, PhD

      Romain K. Gherardi, Professor, head of the department of Histology,
      Henri Mondor hospital, Paris, Neuropathologic and Clinical activities at
      the Neuromuscular Disease Reference Center, and is coordinator of
      the Department of Neurosciences INSERM

      Beatrice Golomb, PhD, MD

      Jay Gordon, MD

      K.S. Grant, PhD

      John Green, MD

      Boyd Haley, PhD

      Richard Halvorsen, MD

      Diane Harper, MD, MPH, MS

      (The late) Bernadine Healy, MD

      Martha Herbert, MD, PhD, Professor of neurology at Harvard Medical

      Laura Hewitson, PhD

      Robert T. Hitlan, PhD

      Amy Holmes, MD

      Brian Hooker, PhD

      Mady Hornig, PhD

      Suzanne Humphries, MD

      Mark Hyman, MD

      Philip Incao, MD

      Ken J Ishii, PhD

      Emmanuel Ittie, PhD

      Dr. Jill James, PhD

      Bryan Jepson, MD

      Archie Kalokerinos, MD

      Jerry Kartzinel, MD

      Matthew S. Kayser, MD

      Marcel Kinsbourne, PhD

      Kouji Kobiyama, PhD

      Sheldon B. Korones, MD

      Arthur Krigsman, MD

      Pierre Lekeux, PhD

      A. Lerner, PhD

      N. Liberato, PhD

      S.X. Lin, PhD

      Andrew D. Livingston, PhD

      Yushu Liu, PhD

      Brian J. Lopresti, PhD

      Kurt M. Lucin, PhD

      Patrick Maisona, PhD

      M. D. Majewska, PhD

      Jennifer Margulia, PhD

      Thomas Marichal, PhD

      N. Scott Mason, PhD

      A. Kimberley McAllister, PhD

      Jaquelyn McCandless, MD

      Susan McCreadie, MD

      (The late) Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, MD

      (The late) John Menkes, MD, Former head of pediatric neurology at
      UCLA Medical School. Menkes was also director of pediatric neurology at
      the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles. In addition, he was a
      member of the Forum for Vaccine Safety with the National Institute of
      Medicine.

      Joseph Mercola, DO

      Claire Mesnil, PhD

      K. Meyza, PhD

      S. Midha, PhD

      P. Mierzejewski, PhD

      Donald W. Miller, Jr. MD

      Richard Moskowitz, MD

      Elizabeth Mumper, MD, Associate professor of clinical pediatrics at the University of Virginia

      Devi S. Nambudripod, MD

      Meryl Nass, MD

      C. Nelson, PhD

      E. Newell, PhD

      Raymond Obomsawin, MSc, PhD

      Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD

      Keiichi Ohata, PhD

      M. Olczak, PhD

      Dr. Mehmet Oz

      Larry Palevsky, MD

      Elodie Passeria, PhD

      Michael S. Petrik, PhD

      Jon Poling, MD

      Diana Popa, PhD

      Massroor Pourcyrous, MD

      Sandy Reider, MD

      (The late) Bernard Rimland, MD

      Aviva Jill Romm, MD

      Robert Rowen, MD

      Catherine Sabatel, PhD

      E. M. Sajdel-Sulkowska, PhD

      Bob Sears, MD

      Martyn A. Sharpe, PhD

      Chris Shaw, Professor, PhD

      DD Shen, PhD

      K. Vijendra Singh, PhD

      Yehuda Shoenfeld, MD, FRCP

      Peter Siesjö, PhD

      Ken Stoller, MD

      Carol Stott, PhD

      Arnold J. Stromberg, PhD

      Z. L. Sulkowski, PhD

      Louise Swarbrick, PhD

      Rena C. Tabata, PhD

      Sherri Tenpenny, DO

      Paul Thomas, MD

      Jaime Tomko, PhD

      Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD

      Anju Usman, MD

      Eva Vanamee, PhD

      Chiara Villac, PhD

      Andrew Wakefield,

      John Walker-Smith, Professor

      Judy Wilyman, PhD candidate

      Margaret C. Wong, PhD

      Tony Wyss-Coray, PhD

      V.C. Yang, PhD

      Amy Yasko, MD

      Edward Yazbak, MD

      Judy Van de Water, PhD, Immunology, UC Davis

      Chiara Villac, PhD

      Walter Zahorodny, PhD, Assistant Professor of Pediatrics, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey

      A. M. Zavacki, PhD

      • Wren

        I always wondered if the bad guys saw the villains as heroes.

        Question answered.

      • Roadstergal

        So, was Wakefield a hero for trying to profit off of fearmongering of the MMR by selling his own separate jabs, or was he a hero for drawing blood from kids without ethical consent and laughing about it later?

        • Linden

          Drawing blood from kids at a *birthday party* for money without their parents’ knowledge or consent. And he’s not ashamed of it. He is an utter turd.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I’m guessing this is one of those random “lists of doctors opposed to vaccination” that gets thrown around?

        Oooo, there are 500 health professionals who have signed the list!!!

        At one time, I was starting to create a list of all the doctors who support vaccination. Starting with our local pediatrics clinic and going from there.

        Alternatively, you could do the vax version of “Project Steve” used to counter the creationist list.

        We could make call it Project Paul, in honor of Paul Offit, and make a list of all the pediatricians named Paul that support vaccination.

        It would dwarf this silly list.

        • Ron Roy

          Very few are courageous enough to risks their licenses, jobs, reseach ( bribes ) grants to tell the truth. As in all wars only a minority stand out.

          • Nick Sanders

            A research grant is a bribe is it? So, how exactly do you expect to do an investigation if you have no money to pay for equipment, supplies, workers, and subjects?

        • Oh, there’s so many possibilities. Project Edward, Project Paul, Project Sarah.

          And Project Blossom for animals.

      • Jonathan Graham

        What is it with vaccine critical people and enormous spam posts?

  • 655321

    There has never been a study between vaccinated children and unvaccinated children. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying. How is it possible to claim vaccinations improve immunity when this has never been studied?

    • Nick Sanders
    • Nick Sanders
      • 655321

        BS. I knew that would flush out some liars. Post the methodology of the study, not just snap shot meme. Ridiculous. And chew on this.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE9ZrybFDBw&app=desktop

        • Nick Sanders
          • 655321

            Laughable. Your unvaccinated group is maybe 90 people? This is troll material.

          • Nick Sanders

            Your claim was not about sample size, it was that anyone who said a study had been done was lying. I demonstrated it was not a lie.

            Beyond that, the relative group sizes in the study were proportional to the estimated population percentages in the country where the study was conducted.

          • 655321

            Your point is irrelevant. 90 cases does not mean anything statistically. And it is a lie to trying to use that is not relevant. You are lying again.

          • Sonja Henie

            Do you support Wakefield?

          • 655321

            Nice try at a straw man, but this discussion has nothing to do with Wakefield.

          • Sonja Henie

            His sample size was 12!

          • 655321

            You are trying to deflect the topic. I don’t know much about Wakefield, sorry, can’t help you.

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, I’m not deflecting. I’m discussing sample size.

          • Charybdis

            You did not specify “statistically significant” or a minimum sample size in your original attempt to sound like you know what you are talking about. You said that studies had not been done and anyone who said otherwise was a liar.

            Numerous people have posted links to studies that have been done about vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children, thus proving both that A: Studies HAVE been done and B: Your childishness is showing.

            If you want specifics, state your criteria in your initial post/challenge. Oh, and don’t move the goalposts. It isn’t cricket to do so.

        • Hahaha! Ok, so this discusses thimerosal as a causative agent in autism. So please explain for me and the other readers here why there hasn’t been a sharp reduction in autism over the past 15 years since thimerosal has been removed from all childhood vaccines? I’ll wait.

          Also, as far as I’m concerned, Dr. Boyle b-slapped that clueless fear-mongering, misinformation-spewing d-bag.

          • 655321

            Lol, look who threw a loose screw, you ok? The point here is no tests have been done. That’s a fact. You can spin circles screaming about thimerosal and whatever else on your pinwheel, but you can’t escape the facts.

          • Some clueless dbag presented a bunch of antivaxx tropes to congress, and I’m supposed to g.a.f?

          • 655321

            LOL, if he lied, he’s in prison. You’re a true idiot.

          • Hahahaha! If somebody lied on The House floor, they’re in jail!!!11!!! You’re beyond hilarious!!!

          • Nick Sanders

            You don’t have to lie to be wrong. FSMP said “clueless”, not “dishonest”.

          • 655321

            Whatever, you’ve attempted to lie at least twice and come up short, your opinion has no credibility.

          • Nick Sanders

            Aren’t you just a bundle of fun? I’m the one putting my money where my mouth is, yet you say I’m the liar?

          • 655321

            Ha, at least you’re funny. You made a claim, which was not backed by your link, is that all the money you got? If so, you’re homeless.

          • corblimeybot

            It’s really interesting how anti-vaxxers can imitate all the components of debate and discourse, but can’t use them correctly. They’re like five year olds in dad’s shoes, all the while yelling “PROVE YOUR CLAIM” and “CITATIONS PLEASE”, like they know what that even means.

          • 655321

            I could do this all day, but unfortunately only the people pushing these products have some financial incentive to do so, and the rest of us have to actually earn a real living. Catch you next time, hopefully you won’t be as easy to debunk.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Ivan Forsch

            Really? I enjoy bitch-slapping assholes like you just for sport.

            But you ‘re saying I could actually get paid for it?

          • Ivan Forsch

            In Burton’s case, it’s arguably both.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t know who Burton is, so I can’t comment specifically.

          • Ivan Forsch

            Former Congressman Dan Burton (R-IN) is the man questioning Colleen Boyle of CDC in the troll’s Youtube video.

            Who is Dan Burton? This should explain:

            Congress Hearing on Vaccines is a Farce of Dangerous Anti-vaccine Quackery
            http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html

          • Ivan Forsch

            He’s no longer Chairman of the Committee and no longer a Congressman.

            That’s how it works

          • Azuran

            Well, yea, congress is like the top brains of the country put together. Look at this snow ball, how can global warming be real????

          • Hahaha, exactly!

          • 655321

            Those are BS links. Post the studies with the methodology used or ask your mom to make you some lunch. Real adults are busy here junior.

          • I posted all these links for you already this week. gfy.
            Oh, and I wish I was that young, skippy.

          • 655321

            Is f@*king yourself common where you live? And you’re full of crap, you have not posted links to those studies anytime recently.

          • Mike Stevens

            The methodology used the PRISMA guidelines.
            You’d know that if you read it.

            Do you have a problem with them?

          • Ivan Forsch
          • Barzini

            From the first comment below the article:

            “ok I took the time to read 2 of the studies. The first study I read was the German 2011 study. Several problems, the first one being that the vaccinated were determined by being any child that has received at least 1 vaccine. It is clearly obvious that a child that has received one vaccine may not demonstrate the same results as a child who has received the full vaccination schedule. Secondly, the vaccinated totalled 13,359 children while the unvaccinated control group was 94 children.

            errrrrrr, quality study, not?

            The second study I read was the Phillipine 2011 study. This was done for children born between 1 May 1983 and 30 April 1984, which included a total of 6 vaccines. This is VASTLY different from the vaccination schedule we see now!!!!!

            If you are going to provide scientific evidence, I suggest you don’t follow the behaviour of exactly what you criticise anti-vaxxers for. Perhaps you should actually read the studies you’re linking to?”

          • Nick Sanders

            Those group numbers were representative of the relative population sizes of the vaccinated vs unvaccinated in Germany. Only 0.7% of the population is unvaccinated, so a random sampling of that population should have approximately the same ratio, which is what happened.

          • Barzini

            Is that how you would conduct a study into health outcomes between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes.

          • Barzini

            The following is taken in part from Public Testimony of Dr. Heather Rice at the Vermont Department of Health hearing on Act 157, 10/19/2012:

            No true prospective, randomized and controlled study of health outcomes of vaccinated people versus unvaccinated has ever been conducted in the U.S. by CDC or any other agency in the 50 years or more of an accelerating schedule of vaccinations.

            However, a German study published in 2011 compared the health outcomes of 94 unvaccinated children versus 13,359 vaccinated children (Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 February; 108(7): 99–104.”Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents; Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS).”

            Because the number of unvaccinated children included in the analysis is so small, statistical evaluation is nearly impossible.

            Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 Feb;108(7):99-104. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2011.0099. Epub 2011 Feb 18.

          • Nick Sanders

            Government agencies are not the only ones capable of conducting studies, you know.

          • Who would volunteer for a double-blind study?

          • Barzini

            So let’s not test

          • Doesn’t answer the question.

          • Ron Roy

            Who ever said thimerosal was the ONLY substance in vaccines that caused autism?

          • Charybdis

            Really? Do tell. What else was implicated, other than the thimerosal?

            *whistles and waves* Hey, guys! Come join me for some revisionist science history story time! Ron Roy is gonna explain it ALL to us!!!!

          • Who?

            It’s the choice of one’s parents that causes autism. Call me a victim blamer, I dare you.

          • corblimeybot

            This bullshit is honestly delightful, but you’re parodying yourself and anti-vaxxers in general.

          • Sonja Henie

            Most AVs at one time or another.

          • All the antivaxx cranks before they were forced to move their goalposts over to aluminum. I believe we’ve collectively decided that after that trope dies a slow death that it’s a toss up between dead baby parts and monkey puss.

          • Nick Sanders

            Sorry, my money is on squalene or polysorbate 80.

          • Ooh, squalene is a good call!!!

          • Ron Roy

            Squalene. Glad you brought that up. GULF WAR SYNDROME.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Read the report. It does not support your claim. That doesn’t surprise me.

          • Mike Stevens

            Never used in any vaccines given to gulf war combatants, Ron.

          • Ron Roy
          • Mike Stevens

            Nope. That showed rests for squalene antibodies were supposedly found in veterans, not that squalene was in any vaccines. Since squalene is a common additive to various substances in food and cosmetics, this is not unexpected.
            No vaccines had squalene as an adjuvant, although lab testing showed one lot of anthrax vaccine had trace levels at concentrations a million times lower than would be needed at adjuvant levels- thought to be due to fingerprint oil residue on a glass vaccine vial.
            http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/80n0208/80n-0208-c000037-15-01-vol151.pdf

          • Ron Roy

            Wrong again Mickey. Yeah quote the most UNBELIEVABLE source the FDA. Try this one:

            http://veteransfamiliesunited.org/wp-content/uploads/file/squaleneII.pdf

          • Mike Stevens

            That’s the same authors.
            Tell us then and NAME the vaccines that you claim had squalene adjuvant.
            I have $1000 for a charity of your choice for every one.

          • Ron Roy

            Anthrax vaccine. Make the check out to the Salvation Army.

          • Mike Stevens

            Anthrax Adjuvant = aluminium hydroxide.
            http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/05n-0040-bkg0001.pdf

            My money stays where it is.

          • Ron Roy

            Then why didn’t the general public come down with the same symptoms. It was ONLY people in the military at the time of the Gulf war that came down with those symptoms.

          • Mike Stevens

            Maybe because…. The symptoms comprising “GWS” are actually multi factorial, and have nothing to do with the (non-existent) squalene in anthrax vaccine?

          • Ron Roy

            Nice try at trying ( notice I said trying)to defend the indefensible.

          • Mike Stevens

            Got that proof squalene is in anthrax vaccine yet, Ron?

            Why not?
            Finding that difficult, all of a sudden?
            Remember there is $1000 going begging.. Why so shy to collect?

          • kfunk937

            OT: cia has decided to lecture me on encephalitis from her boundless education, training, and lo! even personal experience, on the Bob Sears Gives Bad Advice story. I expect more skidmarks up and down the comments…

            head::desk

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia thinks she is an encephalitis expert.
            She read about it in the Merck Manual, and misapplied one of the listed features on the symptom list to her recollection of her own daughter’s problems as a neonate. She made an impossible “self”diagnosis of encephalitis, despite her child having virtually none of the clinical features or typical history, having no specialist examination and none of the investigations necessary to establish the diagnosis. Her child never saw a doctor, despite being near deaths door, according to Cia.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “head::desk”
            Would that warrant a neuro eval from Dr. Bob?

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, since getting hit in the head with a hammer apparently doesn’t…

          • Michael McCarthy

            well, a desk is bigger so maybe that presents more danger in his mind?

          • shay simmons

            Snap.

          • Sonja Henie

            And also, anthrax vaccine is rarely given to members of the general public here in the US.

          • Nick Sanders

            Maybe it had something to do with being in the Gulf?

          • Ron Roy

            If you would have read what I posted you would have seen that even those military people who were not deployed ( stayed in the US) got the same symptoms.

          • Nick Sanders

            Since I can only read the abstract, what with the full text being behind a paywall, I can’t examine the methodology. And I have some questions, for example what was the sample size of their group of “veterans who didn’t deploy but showed symptoms”. Since I can’t see the answers, your link is interesting, but hardly conclusive.

          • shay simmons

            Exposure to the oil field fires is one possible contributor.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15508886

          • Wren
          • Ron Roy

            Anthrax vaccine.

          • Mike Stevens
          • Wren

            So Ron Roy, can you tell me about the use of squalene in the human body?

          • Ron Roy

            Here do a little research it’s easy you know:http://www.scienceforlife.eu/tekst%20what%20is%20squalenel.htm

          • Wren

            The human body requires squalene, yet you believe a tiny amount (not even detectable with normal assays) is a huge problem.

          • Mike Stevens

            Mmmmm… Ice cream!!!!!

          • shay simmons

            You forgot the peanut oil.

          • Who?

            ‘Who ever said any substance in vaccines caused autism?’

            Fixed it for you.

          • Ron Roy

            See the movie Vaxxed. Fixed it for you.

          • Who?

            boring.

          • Nick Sanders
          • #Wakefraud #crapumentary

          • @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus:

            Can you explain to @disqus_ruSIKtVC0i:disqus what needs to happen for that to avoid COIs.

          • Wren

            Well, if it’s in a movie that disagrees with scientific consensus in multiple countries and heavily features a discredited and unethical struck-off doctor, it must be true. That’s how I determine what is true at all times.

        • Ivan Forsch

          He cut the witness short before she could answer.

          The studies haven’t been done by CDC. They’ve been conducted in other countries.

        • Ahem.

          That link from the comment is the study itself.

          Why not just read the methodology for yourself?

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, that link was a third study, in addition to the two in the image. One that almost no one seems to care to address when I link it.

            I wonder why…

          • Thanks for the correction.

        • Sonja Henie

          You know, that’s in the anti-vax manual, isn’t it? Show me the methodology! Yet you guys post all matter of woo, and we’re supposed to accept it without question. What a bunch of hypocrites, among other things.

          • 655321

            You have a copy of that anti-vax manual? I misplaced mine?

          • Sonja Henie

            It’s Babs’ website! All this crap comes from there!

          • 655321

            Babs? Was wondering if you could lend me your vac-shill manual? Should I go to snopes or skelptical to download it?

          • Sonja Henie

            Babs Loe Fisher. I’m sure you have it bookmarked.

          • 655321

            NVIC?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      You’re behind the times. I debunked your “argument” back in 2009:

      http://www.skepticalob.com/2009/10/latest-argument-of-vaccine.html

      • Barzini

        Is that the one where you compare injecting neurotoxins into a baby’s body with wearing a seat belt?

        • Azuran

          For god’s sake. You are still going on about that neurotoxin crap of yours? Have you read absolutely nothing people have been telling you for the past week?

          • Barzini

            What’s your catch phrase again: ‘Dose makes the poison’? Is that it?

            Ah man, makes me laugh just typing it out….

          • Azuran

            well maybe you want to have some basic class in toxicology. Because it totally does. It’s practically the most basic principle of toxicology.
            Or are you actually going to pretend that dosage is absolutely not important?

          • I’d like to add some basic classes in chemistry to that.

          • Barzini

            Yeah I get the concept

            But come on, there is currently investigation being carried out into a potential link between alzheimers and other disorders and aluminium and mercury

            No one is looking into a potential link between these disorders and drinking too much water

            There is a reason for that

            Sure, everything can eventually be toxic – but you know exactly what people mean when they say (for example) that mercury is highly toxic

          • Wren

            Do you get that compounds are not elements? And that safety levels of various compounds and elements have been established?

          • Ron Roy

            No they haven’t.

          • Wren

            Oh? That’s rather surprising since I know both the UK and the US, and I would imagine pretty much all developed countries at least, have very clear safety levels for various types of exposure to many, many elements and compounds. These are used to help determine guidelines on health and safety, procedures for accidental exposure and, yes, determining the therapeutic dosage of medications including vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s the primary principle of toxicology.

          • Barzini

            Yeah I get the concept

            Come on, there is currently investigation being carried out into a potential link between alzheimers and other disorders and aluminium and mercury

            No one is looking into a potential link between these disorders and drinking too much water

            There’s a reason for that

            Sure, everything can eventually be toxic – but you know exactly what people mean when they say (for example) that mercury is highly toxic

          • demodocus

            Of course it does. My toddler would get very sick from the dose of tylenol I was taking after I gave birth to his sister.

          • LaMont

            I mean, I eat tuna relatively frequently (not excessively), so apparently I’m already dead from mercury poisoning. It’s been nice knowing all of you 🙂

          • Nick Sanders

            How do you take yours? Steaks, sushi, or canned?

          • LaMont

            Canned/tuna salad. So, slightly less mercury-laden than steaks/sushi, iirc. But if dose doesn’t matter…

          • Nick Sanders

            I just wanted to ask, because earlier this year, I found that ground cardamom makes for some amazing tuna salad.

          • Barzini

            Around 0.3% of mercury is absorbed into the GI tract when consumed orally

          • Barzini

            No doubt you believe there’s no difference between ingestion and injection either

          • Mike Stevens

            There isn’t a difference in the aluminium compounds AFTER sbsobtion into the blood stream, whether the original source be inhalation, mucosal exposure, ingestion, infusion or injection.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, but approximately 99.7% isn’t absorbed when consumed orally

          • Mike Stevens

            99.5%, more like.

            Anyhow, I am glad you finally accept that 1mcg of a 200mcg oral dose is the same as 1mcg of an injected dose.

          • Barzini

            I’m prepared to accept that – but I admit I don’t know

            The vaccine is after all designed to create an immune reaction, drinking some formula milk isn’t

            the vaccine also comes in one ‘punch’ whereas drinking formula milk would be a more gradual affair

            Just questions, I admit I don’t know

          • Wren

            Again, IM vaccines will not enter the bloodstream in one “punch”.

          • Mike Stevens

            Read Mitkus then, and consider yourself more knowledgeable.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122

          • Charybdis

            The vaccine is given all in one go, but it the amount is something like 1-2 cc’s. A bottle of formula is not a “more gradual affair”. A baby, depending on age, will drink anywhere between 2-8 ounces of formula per feeding, numerous times a day. The baby will suck down the formula in

          • Barzini

            So let’s do some calculations

            Breast milk contains 23 mcg of aluminium / litre (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10067727)

            An average serving for a new born baby is 0.1 litres (http://www.parents.com/baby/feeding/solid-foods/feeding-portions-menu/)

            So in one serving, a baby consumes 2.3mcg of aluminium

            But only 0.5% is absorbed, so we must multiply 2.3 by 0.005 to get 0.012 mcg – an amount which is consumed gradually over 10 minutes

            On the other hand, the Hep B vaccine (given on first day of life) contains 250mcg of aluminium

            So, 250/0.012 = 20,833 times more aluminium in the vaccine than breast milk

            Also, remember the breast milk is consumed gradually over 10 minutes remember
            Also, remember the vaccine is designed to cause an immune reaction and is delivered in one go

          • Wren

            Does going through the liver remove aluminum?

            How quickly is the aluminum from the IM injection (remember, it’s not directly into the bloodstream despite Sears’ claims) absorbed into the bloodstream? In what form does it enter the bloodstream? Is it bound to other molecules or free to enter tissues as it moves around the body?

            What about aluminum absorbed from ingestion? Is that bound or free?

            And is Hep B on the Swiss schedule? Or are you using this example you worked out all on your own because it is commonly used by anti-vaxers in the US where it is on the schedule and on Sears’ website?

          • Barzini

            Unbelievable that that’s all you have to say

            Over 20000 times more in the vaccine than in a serving of breast milk

          • Azuran

            So what? If I take a 500mg motrin, that’s probably also a >20 000 time the amount of ibuprofen I would have ingested in a single serving of food. It’s still not going to kill me. (and yet it’s still probably more dangerous than the aluminum in vaccines)

            You still have 0 evidence that the small amount of aluminum in the vaccine has caused harm to even 1 baby. It has actually been studied a lot and no one has ever been able to show that the aluminum in vaccine has caused any kind of negative health effect.
            Get over it.

          • Barzini

            At least you’ll stop saying thinks like ingestion = injection and ‘there’s aluminium in breast milk’

            At least that’s a start

          • Azuran

            I’ve actually never said either of those things.
            I said that once it’s absorbed, the body doesn’t care where it came from. All that really matters is if the absorbed dose is a toxic dose. And it isn’t the case with vaccines.
            Mainly my point has been from the start that you have 0 evidence and are just a dumbass without any real understanding of science.

          • Barzini

            What’s the toxic dose limit via injection for aluminium for a new born baby?

          • Azuran

            Much higher than that in the vaccine. You don’t have it either, so you have no reason to actually be so worried about it.

          • Barzini

            You don’t know the limit?

          • Azuran

            As far as I can tell, no one know the limit, because injecting people with product until they become intoxicated is unethical.
            But it also means that no aluminum related adverse effect was ever noted after a vaccine. For what I could find, the only cases of aluminum intoxication happened to people with terminal renal failure on artificial dialysis and taking huge dose of oral anti-acid containing aluminum. And the toxicity happened because they are unable to excrete aluminum (because the kidneys are actually extremely good at doing it). Healthy people do not have that problem.

          • Barzini

            Not only do you now know the limit, you’re not sure if there even is one

            OMG, this is insane

          • Azuran

            Wow, you really don’t know how science and ethics work do you.
            We COULD find the toxic dose. It would require that we freaking kill people. Now THAT would be insane.

            Another way to figure out a toxic dose would be to analyse medical cases of people with intoxication and figure out at what dose do people start having clinical signs. But here’s the thing…….there are no cases. Normal people don’t get aluminum poisoning because unless your renal function is nonexistant and you take huge doses of it, it’s impossible to intoxicate yourself with any kind of food or medication that we have around.
            Yet you would have us panic over something that never freaking happened, despite the millions of doses of vaccines we have given so far. Now that’s what I call insane.

          • Barzini

            We now the toxicity limit for a huge range of substances

            Are you actually claiming that aluminium is somehow special?

          • Azuran

            Indeed we do, But we don’t know the limit of a lot of them. Aluminum is not special, it just fall into the category of those things that are just so not toxic, that we have no way to figure it out without killing someone.

          • So let’s say the vaccine is 2 ccs to be favourable to Barzini and to be nice to Barzini, we’ll say the formula is 2ccs.

            We’ll assume a formula fed baby because Googlefu says formula feeders feed less often. “Most newborns who are formula-fed feed every 2 to 3 hours. As they get bigger and their tummies can hold more milk they usually eat every 3 to 4 hours.” http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/formulafeed-often.html

            So let’s say baby feeds roughly every 3 hours which works for either. So that’s 8 feedings a day.

            So we’re looking at 16 ccs of formula per 24 hours.

            Now, tote up the aluminum and then compare to this:

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent-compliant.html

          • Wren

            Well, 99.7 to 95%.

            Now tell me what happens if say 100 mg is ingested and .3 mg is injected.

          • Barzini

            100mg ingested? How would that happen?

          • Wren

            I’m throwing out numbers. Use mcg if that makes you happier.

            You are happy to ignore the fact that the aluminium in a vaccine is not elemental aluminium up to this point, but now think the fact it is used to increase the immune response will matter?

            The IM injected aluminium will also not enter the bloodstream all at once. Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream.

            Assume the same composition and the same amount. Do you believe that the route of administration (IM injection or ingestion) would matter? If so, why?

          • Barzini

            I don’t know, I’d like to know the answer also

          • Wren

            No. The answer is no.

          • Barzini

            Thanks for clearing that up, I can get back to the football now with my mind at ease

          • Wren

            The method of entry really does not matter once a compound is in the bloodstream. The body cannot tag it as “IM entry” or “Digestive system entry”. If you end up with the same amount of the same compound in the bloodstream, route does not matter.

          • Barzini

            I’m reading something on a pro vaccine forum where they say the following:

            “The difference between ingestion and injection is that all the ingested matter that enters the blood through the gastrointestinal system goes through the liver before entering the heart and spreading to the entire body. On the other hand, a substance injected to a limb enters veins that lead directly to the heart, not passing through the liver, and so at least partially enters all parts of the body unfiltered by the liver. Hence there may be a difference in whether the substance actually makes it to organs such as the kidneys or the brain.”

            No idea if it’s true or not, but it’s in line with how I would imagine things to be

          • Wren

            All blood gets filtered through the liver and kidneys. Yes, through the GI tract will go through the liver earlier, but that is irrelevant to the blood-brain barrier. Aluminum is primarily excreted through the kidneys though, which is why aluminium toxicity is rare outside of those with renal problems.

          • Wren

            How new do you think aluminium adjuvants in vaccines are?

          • Barzini

            What is this, some kind of cryptic test? – if you have something to say say it

            It would be a lot quicker that way

          • Wren

            I want to know. Do you believe this is a new thing in vaccines, say the last few years? Something that has been in vaccines for 20 years? Something that has been in vaccines for 50 years?

            You seem to feel it has not been sufficiently studied, so I wonder how long do you think researchers have had to study it?

          • Barzini

            There have been major concerns about vaccines for decades

            The Japanese government stopped DPT vaccination for 2 months in 1975, and, when vaccination was resumed, the vaccination age was lifted to 2 years

            That kind of thing has been going on pretty regularly, removal of vaccines, changes in age, etc…

            I personally have no idea, but it’s fair to say that controversy has always surrounded vaccination

          • Wren

            Oh, controversy has always surrounded vaccination, and there have been changes.

            Japan now gives the DPT at the same time as the rest of the world, so in infancy.

            Aluminium has been used as an adjuvant since the 1930s. It has a very long history of safety. It was basically of no interest to anti-vaxers until they needed something to replace the mercury fears.

          • Wren

            Which vaccines contain aluminium adjuvants?

            Are you willing to give those that do not?

          • Wren

            I really would like to see Barzini answer this.

          • demodocus

            you are one repetative dude. Obviously there is a difference, or vaccines would all be oral. The amount of mercury found in tuna and swordfish , however, is FAR higher than ever appeared in a vaccine.

          • Barzini

            Here’s my rough calculation for aluminium in breast milk and the hep B vaccine

            Breast milk contains an average of 23 mcg of aluminium / litre http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu

            An average serving for a new born baby is 0.1 litres http://www.parents.com/baby/fe

            So in one serving, a baby consumes 2.3mcg of aluminium

            But only 0.5% is absorbed – I have taken a figure for drinking water as an approximate
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm

            So we must multiply 2.3 by 0.005 to get 0.012 mcg – an amount which is consumed gradually over 10 minutes
            http://www.parents.com/baby/fe

            On the other hand, the Hep B vaccine (given on first day of life) contains 250mcg of aluminium

            So, 250/0.012 = 20833 times more aluminium in the vaccine than one serving of breast milk, with regard to what is absorbed by the body

          • Barzini

            Yeah I get the concept

            But come on, there is currently investigation being carried out into a potential link between alzheimers and other disorders and aluminium and mercury

            No one is looking into a potential link between these disorders and drinking too much water

            There’s a reason for that

            Sure, everything can eventually be toxic – but you know exactly what people mean when they say (for example) that mercury is highly toxic

          • demodocus

            since there’s no mercury in my kids’ vaccines, that point is moot.
            Plus, thirmesol (sp?) is a mercury compound, not the element, even my high school chem class pointed out that sodium is explosive in water and sodium chloride is table salt.
            And even straight up, do you also eschew all larger fish, ’cause all the big predators are on the list of food to limit when pregnant because of elemental mercury contamination.

          • Barzini

            Ah the old ingestion = injection dodge

          • demodocus

            Ah, the old poisons are less poisonous if eaten dodge

          • Box of Salt

            Attributed to Paracelsus, 16th century. It’s not exactly a new concept.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, I get the concept

            But it’s the continual use of this statement to justify injecting certain ingredients into babies that just amazes me

            Or the idea that because aluminium is abundant in mother nature under certain conditions, that means its OK to inject it into children as long as the amount is under a certain level

            And the whole injection is the same as ingestion argument – come on

          • Barzini

            Yeah I get the concept

            But come on, there is currently investigation being carried out into a potential link between alzheimers and other disorders and aluminium and mercury

            No one is looking into a potential link between these disorders and drinking too much water

            There’s a reason for that

            Sure, everything can eventually be toxic – but you know exactly what people mean when they say (for example) that mercury is highly toxic

          • Mike Stevens
          • Why?

            You do know you can die of water intoxication?

          • Box of Salt

            Water intoxication: in case you thought it was made up
            http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14

          • Barzini

            Let me know when we start storing water in bio hazard containers

          • Barzini

            Funny how researchers aren’t investigating a link between disorders like alzheimers and H2O consumption, but that they are investigating a link between such disorders and aluminium and mercury

            You should contact them and tell them that it could be H2O

          • Mike Stevens
          • They’re aware, thanks. But please learn some basic chemistry.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You know you can die from too much water, right? It’s well known.

          • Barzini

            Jeez, we should start transporting it around in bio hazard containers like we do with mercury

            Thanks for that

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            No, BECAUSE THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON.

            Kind of the point that everyone is making, that you keep missing;.

          • Barzini

            And of course we have those dose levels all perfectly calculated don’t we? And we understand perfectly what the safe dose is for each age group…..and all those people claiming it makes sense to not give lots of doses at once and not too early in life – man they are all just ‘loons’, ‘human waste’ and ‘whackos’

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            Mercury is no longer in vaccines, so stop bringing it up. It’s just showing you a being a stubborn baby.

            And
            funnily enough, every single research I’ve done on aluminum and
            Alzheimer pretty much says the same thing: It had been studied a lot in
            the past because people thought there was a link (after someone injected
            it DIRECTLY in a rabbit’s brain…), no concrete link was found in
            studies, the vast majority of the experts believe that if there is a
            link, it’s too small to be of any real value.
            Aluminum being
            absolutely everywhere in life, there is no real way to measure exposure
            to do proper studies and it’s practically impossible to reduce exposure.

            No one even mentions vaccination as a possible cause or as something that should be stopped, because even stopping vaccination
            would not reduce your lifetime exposing by anything significant, and
            would not reduce your risk.
            You are just obsessing over something
            absolutely insignificant because you are an anti-vaxxers trying to hold
            on his fake beliefs.

            As for your question between ingestion and
            injection. There is indeed a difference. Which is bio-availability. Or
            the % of an ingested or injected substance that will be absorbed into
            the body and therefore be able to have an effect.
            But do you really
            think that researcher don’t factor it in when they do their studies? Of
            course they do you idiot. And once a product is absorbed in your body,
            it doesn’t matter where it was absorbed from.

          • Barzini

            So what is this bio availability %? Genuine question, I’d like to know…..

          • Azuran

            Look it up yourself. It’s not like you are actually interested in actually learning something, so I have no reason to waste time trying to educate you.

          • Barzini

            You don’t know it either then – so your approach is to assume that it’s all been worked out

            Fair enough, I guess that’s what most people do

          • Azuran

            My approach is that bioavailability is a totally basic principle of pharmacology. So yes, people who are evaluating the potential effect of any kind of product will factor it in. Because it’s the first thing you do when you study the pharmacology of a product.

            Do I know what it is personally? No, because I’m not a vaccine or aluminum researcher. But I trust that those who are know what they are doing and wouldn’t be anywhere near as dumb as you. So yes, they take it into consideration.

          • Barzini

            So when people say things like ‘there’s more aluminium in breast milk’ you agree that unless we know the bio availability % between ingestion and injection, such statements are not really helpful

            From what I can tell around 0.3% of orally ingested aluminium is absorbed by the GI tract – by all means don’t take my word for that

          • Wren

            Except that you can, if you choose, research that information. Yes, more aluminium will enter the bloodstream from an IM injection, but a vastly larger amount is ingested such that the amount of aluminium in the bloodstream from ingestion is far higher.

          • Barzini

            From what I can tell, around 0.3% of aluminium is absorbed by the GI tract when consumed orally, with the rest excreted as waste

          • Azuran

            And it turns out that the aluminum in the vaccine is also quickly excreted out of the body without actually doing anything to it.
            There are 0 proof out there that there was ever any harm done to anyone by the aluminum in the vaccine and tons of studies actually done on it that showed no ill effect. But here you still are, after 1 week, shouting ALUMINUM!!!! without any real reason.

          • Wren

            Be fair. He’s shouting ALUMINIUM!!!!

            (This is the one word where I struggle with the British spelling.)

          • Barzini

            Let’s try and discover the bio availbility % for injection – I can’t find it yet

            Then we can determine whether those people saying things ‘there’s more aluminium in milk’ have any idea about what they’re taking about or not

          • Wren

            Do you honestly believe you are the first person to consider the bioavailability of aluminium in vaccines? Do you honestly believe your google searches are somehow superior to the study of those who have spent their lives on this?

            If you find that aluminium salts used in vaccines do not remain in the system for long periods, do not lead to more aluminium in the bloodstream than is taken in via food, drink and other normal daily activities, and are not toxic at the doses used, will you change your views on vaccination or simply go looking for another reason to refuse vaccination?

          • Sonja Henie

            I know the answer to that one! It’s “B”, look for another reason!

          • Azuran

            you are still going on and on about irrelevant crap.
            The ONLY thing you have, is that someone out there is researching to know IF aluminum is related to Alzheimers.
            There are 0 conclusive evidence of it so far. And yet you are extrapolating a not yet proven, maybe unexistant link, to claim that vaccination is dangerous despite the fact that it’s widespread use has not resulted in any kind of aluminum related illness.

          • Wren

            Well, now he or she has added concerns over the vaccine court in the US. Why? I have no idea as he or she claims to live in Switzerland where that doesn’t even apply. I have a feeling Barzini has found an anti-vax site and will just bring in each argument in turn, regardless of how bad the argument is.

          • So…that leaves 0.97% of orally ingested aluminum is NOT absorbed by the GI tract – what does this tell you?

            You should be looking at alum though.

          • Barzini

            it tells me that 99.7% of orally ingested alumium passes through the colon and exits the body as waste

          • And what does THAT tell you?

          • Wren

            Oh, I absolutely believe it has all been worked out. Bioavailability is hardly a new concept and is considered in any medication.

          • Barzini

            Genuine question, what is it for injection?

            It looks like only 0.3% of orally consumed aluminium is actually absorbed by the GI tract

          • Wren

            Actually, that varies by the aluminium compound. Aluminum citrate, for example, may have 5% absorption.

          • Nick Sanders

            Haven’t you heard? All aluminum, regardless of compounding, ionization, or oxidation state is completely identical. And harmful at all doses.

            Unless you swallow it.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Funny how researchers aren’t investigating a link between disorders like alzheimers and H2O consumption”

            Funny you should say that, because I’m a physician and when an elderly person shows up confused, excess water consumption is definitely in the differential. It’s actually fairly common. The old person (typically female) sips on water all day and at the same time doesn’t take in enough food. Old kidneys are not super efficient and so during urination, normal body stores of sodium are flushed away causing hyponatremia, which causes the memory problems. It’s considered a form of psychogenic polydipsia.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, you know what I mean

            There are no researchers out there adding H2O to petri dishes containing brain neurons

            We don’t carry water about in bio hazard containers

          • fiftyfifty1

            “There are no researchers out there adding H2O to petri dishes containing brain neurons”

            Exactly, because they know that free water is toxic to cells. Brain cells in particular are very sensitive to excess water. Brain cells can demyelinate and even literally explode if the osmolality is not perfect.

          • Barzini

            Jeez, we better start carrying water around in bio hazard containers and wearing special gloves when handling it

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Jeez, we better start carrying water around in bio hazard containers and wearing special gloves when handling it”

            Well, luckily all organisms, from the simplest bacteria and algae to the most complex animals and plants all have evolved complex systems to mitigate the potentially toxic effects of water. In our case, it is the kidneys, and they work night and day to prevent water poisoning. Humans can exist without kidneys, but only if they strictly follow an extremely limited water intake diet and even then they need to detoxify from the water at least 3 times per weeks hooked to a sophisticated artificial filter to pull off the water. It’s called dialysis and if you had no kidneys you would die within a week without it.

            As for wearing the special gloves, good news is we already have them! Animals have heavily keritinized skin coated with sebum to repel water and thus protect body cells in case water gets on them.

          • corblimeybot

            Rather petulant response.

          • Wren

            Why?

            It’s entirely true. Pretty much everything can be toxic at the wrong dose. Many of those same things are required for life at lower dosages.

          • Barzini

            I’ll start carrying water around in bio hazard containers then, like we do with mercury

          • Biohazard containers like this one?

          • Barzini

            My high school had a special procedure in place to deal with thermometer breakages which included evacuating the class room of all children and contacting a special department to correctly deal with the waste……

          • Still doesn’t look much like a biohazard container to me.

            Did it ever occur to you that it might have something to do with the fact that both thermometers and lightbulb breakage end with broken glass over the floor?

          • Barzini

            My high school didn’t have any special procedures in place for breaking glass bottles, the classroom certainly didn’t need to be evacuated in the case of broken glass, in fact the child would probably clean up the mess themselves, and the teacher certainly didn’t need to contact a special department to make sure the broken glass was disposed of correctly

          • So?

            You were a … high-schooler in high school and an elementary-schooler in elementary school. Of course you don’t need to evacuate a room full of teenagers for broken glass!

          • Barzini

            You literally just asked me in the comment above whether the class had to be evacuated because of broken glass?

            Of course it didn’t (it was because of the contents of the thermometer) but that’s what you asked

          • Wren

            Yes, liquid mercury is considered hazardous waste, and schools like to ensure the safety of children (and cover themselves from liability) above all else.

            How much mercury is in a thermometer?

            What form is that mercury in? Compound or element?

            What are the symptoms of mercury toxicity from the form in a thermometer?

          • Or even the same thing via different routes.

            A child between one and three needs about 1.3 (American) liters of water a day per this: http://www.babycenter.in/x1016988/how-much-water-should-my-toddler-drink-every-day

            That’s about 43.95823 us fl oz . Round up and you get 44 U.S. fl. oz. That’s 1301.24 cubic centimetres.

            And babies and toddlers can drown in as little as around 5 centimenters of water. http://www.capt.org.uk/safety-advice/keeping-your-child-safe-drowning

          • Amazed

            I’m sure Azuran is happy to have made you laugh. We were all laughing so hard here last week with your pathetic knowledge of basic, middle-school maths and biology. I mean, you really, really couldn’t understand that a percentage of a person could not be infected by measles and you thought there should have actually been 4 000 people sick with measles to get the two cases that your fellow anti-vax parent murdered. Such ignorance is truly stunning. The fact that you still think you’re competent to discuss anything to do with science at a grown-up level is… astounding.

          • Barzini

            Such faith in an obviously untrue story is what amazes me

            Whatever made up nonsense do you believe in?

          • Maud Pie

            Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, killed John F. Kennedy. Shakespeare’s plays were written by William Shakespeare. The World Trade Center towers collapsed because terrorists crashed planes in into them. Jack the Ripper was not a member of the royal family. No Munchkin extra committed suicide during filming of the Wizard of Oz. Elvis Presley is dead. Paul McCartney is alive.

            There’s a full week of catch phrases to make you laugh.

          • Barzini

            Well three towers collapsed, but there were only two planes

            So straight away, there is a major problem in your logic

          • demodocus

            Have you never seen something large falling on something smaller?

          • Barzini

            That’s not what happened in this case, not even close, WT 7 fell much later and was never hit by a plane or a building

            Looks like you have no idea what you’re talking about

          • Heidi

            http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/nyregion/22wtccnd.html?_r=0 Here you go, Barzini. Not that it will convince you. If it doesn’t, fine.

          • Barzini

            Yeah I’ve no problem with that version

            Nothing to do with being hit by a plane though

          • demodocus

            Not quite, no, but isn’t that the effect? Debris from the falling buildings damaged the 3rd and set fires that damaged it more.

          • Maud Pie

            You have an amazing capacity to outdo yourself.

          • Barzini

            He said three buildings were hit by two planes – obviously impossible

          • corblimeybot

            PACK IT IN, EVERYONE. If you weren’t tired of talking to Barzini before, he’s just handed you the clearest evidence yet that he is not worth your time.

          • Wren

            Ooh, boy.

            I get it now.

          • Nick Sanders

            WTC 7 was hit with debris when the North Tower collapsed. This may shock you, but when a 110 story building falls down, it doesn’t do so in a neat pile.

          • Sonja Henie

            Of course he hasn’t! He knows everything!

        • No.

          Read this and try again:

          https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/09/14/the-rules-of-logic-part-7-using-consistent-reasoning-to-compare-apples-and-oranges/

          Now, Barzini, you know full well there isn’t a neurotoxin in there or even neurotoxic ingredient in vaccines because dose makes the poison.

          That is a knowingly false statement from you i.e. a lie. Why do you persist in lying about this?

          • Who?

            Because he has a lot of feelings. And his feelings are more important than logic, reason or silly old science.

            It is impossible to reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themself into.

            Barzini’s position is devoid of reason, therefore applying reason to it is bound to fail. It isn’t that he’s lying so much as there is no such thing as an objective fact in the space he is occupying.

            It’s useful though to debunk his nonsense as it appears in case there is anyone lurking, on the fence, wondering about all this. Maybe they can be reasoned out of antivax before falling into it.

          • Diet dee

            how much injecte aluminum(the kind in vaccine} does it take harm a 1 year one?

          • Nick Sanders

            More than is in a vaccine.

          • Diet dee

            a citation would be nice?

          • Nick Sanders
          • More than there is in a vaccine or humanity wouldn’t survive being pricked by roses.

            However, compounds aren’t elements. Take some basic chemistry courses, Diet Dee.

          • Ron Roy

            But compounds are made up of elements and the synergistic effects can be deadlier than the individual element. Take some basic chemistry courses.

          • Wren

            What chemistry courses would you recommend? Personally I have a minor in chemistry and have taken a number of chemistry and biochemistry courses. Additionally, I have taken an intro pharmacology course.

            How about you?

          • demodocus

            I suspect that I have more chemistry than him, and I switch majors after a year.

          • Ron Roy

            Then why do you consistently get everything WRONG ?

          • Simply put, Ron? You are wrong about Wren being wrong.

          • Wren

            Please show me exactly what I have consistently gotten WRONG.

            Then maybe you could answer which basic chemistry courses you recommend, and add in which you have taken?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because you’re living in an alternate reality.

          • Of course, compounds are made up of elements.

            The synergistic effects can be deadlier or safer than indvidual elements – the point is that you can’t look at explosive sodium and gas-mask-requiring chlorine gas and decide that sodium chloride is a white powder that explodes in water and gives off poisonous fumes but conversely, you can’t look at carbon and note that it’s generally safe and look at how safe oxygen is if you’re careful not to set it alight and then come to the conclusion that carbon monoxide is safe.

            Compounds need to be judged as compounds and not as elements. Doing otherwise is a basic mistake that undermines anything else you have to say about chemistry.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But compounds are made up of elements and the synergistic effects can be
            deadlier than the individual element. Take some basic chemistry
            courses.

            Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion rears it’s ugly head….

            Yes, molecules/compounds can be more dangerous than the elements/ions from which they are formed. Or not.

            That’s why it makes no sense to assert that something is dangerous just because it contains mercury. Lots of mercury containing complexes are dangerous. Lots of mercury containing complexes are not dangerous. It’s not mercury vs not mercury.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Yes, molecules/compounds can be more dangerous than the elements/ions from which they are formed.” So you agree it’s a possibility.Mercury there a lot more to any vaccine than mercury
            You think vaccinating kids is a good thing that means you approve of having kids
            injected with horse blood, rabbit brain,dog kidney,monkey kidney, chick
            embryo,chicken egg protein, duck egg, pigs blood, calf and fetal bovine serum,
            tissue from aborted fetuses and the DNA that it contains, aluminum, thimerosol (
            a form of mercury ), squaline,( which has not been approved by the FDA and is
            the leading cause of Gulf War Syndrome), peanut oil, glycerin, MSG, phenol,
            polysorbate 80, streptomycin, formaldehyde, sodium borate,canine kidney cells,
            oh last but not least Simian Virus 40 which contaminated the original polio
            vaccine. Simian Virus 40 is a cancer causing virus and that was the 40th virus
            they found in that vaccine! Most cancerous brain tumors are caused by SV40. That
            virus is now part of our genome and there’s no way to get rid of it! If there are no problems associated with vaccines, then why did
            Congress pass the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986? The reason is
            because Pharmaceutical companies were being sued so much, because of all the
            deaths and injuries caused by vaccines, that they would have to stop making
            vaccines so they “convinced ( bribed ) Congress into passing a law whereby the
            government accepts the liability! One of my best friends was a practicing
            microbiologist for 32 years and he admitted that our bodies don’t just produce
            antibodies against the viruses in the vaccine but also the ingredients in the
            vaccine. Gee I wonder where all the allergies are coming from? The greatest
            killer of pre-teens is leukemia I wonder what causes that? etc.etc.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Jonathan Graham

            Gee I wonder where all the allergies are coming from?

            Not vaccines. You can see that just by the increase in peanut allergies. It’s simply doesn’t match any increase in vaccination. Not to mention that we’ve had a lot of success in reversing them.

            The greatest killer of pre-teens is leukemia

            Not leukemia. Most common cause of death for 0-14 is congenital abnormalities. Next is low birth weight. Then birth trauma. Then other physical injuries and then road traffic accidents.

          • Mike Stevens

            Like the synergy between sodium and chlorine?

          • Nick Sanders

            Or iron and oxygen!

          • Sonja Henie

            Oooh, big gotcha question, eh?

          • Diet dee

            I would like a some sort of number per body weight for example. Some vaccines cause brain /neurological damage. Aluminium seems to be the suspect so what is an unsafe dose?

          • Sonja Henie

            No vaccines cause brain damage. Since you’re interested in this issue, why don’t you look it up yourself.

          • Nick Sanders

            Some vaccines cause brain /neurological damage.

            Citation, please.

          • Wren

            Well, I suppose if you don’t die from a vpd in childhood, go on to be old enough to drive, get in an accident and end up with brain damage an argument could be made that the vaccine led to that. I’m still not sure I’d use the word “caused” though.

          • Diet dee

            Didn’t talk about brain inflammation before? The chicken pox vaccine insert lists a number side effects.

          • Nick Sanders

            Side effects or adverse events?

          • Wren

            And what are the potential complications of chicken pox? At what rate do adverse events occur from vaccination? At what rate do complications occur from the disease?

            When you only consider the risks on one side, you cannot form a reasoned opinion.

          • Sure.

            Now,how does that compare to the chicken pox itself?

          • Diet dee

            I’ll take the rash and risk of shingles down the road instead of brain/nervous system damage.

          • Sigh.

            You need to compare ALL of the risks of chickenpox to ALL of the risks of the vaccine and ALL of the relevant incidences if you’re going to come to a reasoned decision. You also need to know the difference between adverse events, adverse reactions and side effects.

            Do you?

          • Diet dee

            adverse events = Lawyer speak for side effects.

          • Then you will need to explain why global infant mortality is going down as vaccines go up – of course this alone doesn’t prove that vaccines are responsible for the decline – it just shows the problem with your reasoning. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d7a0eddd469d70f442fc9138566d6c4bb8c4ef72dad3f9fcb1be19987a0e16c9.gif https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33e1b37eb7b5e8eb7232b71222fe95848215e84c12f4a4622d4e22251b14aba9.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/95e25c72c9da10f780a72073158784ca3e4b0bcba989270c90d96945733e575a.jpg

          • Diet dee

            Curious what is the mechanism for protection? How Are vaccine protecting child from SIDs. Are officials finding evidence of VPD in dead infants? Seems un related. CDC claims that it’s mostly due to children sleeping on there back maybe something similar is happening around the world. I’m going to guess that infant mortality has been dropping for 100 plus years as our health care improved. Countries definitely purchase drugs and vaccines from corrupt pharmaceutical companies with the intention of helping them. But there have definitely been some bad drugs permitted on the market and in the end the universal health care system must step in again.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            Well, yes there have been some bad drugs. There have also been some bad alternative medicine, some bad mothers, some bad food, some bad pretty much everything.

            As to how vaccines are related to SIDS, try looking for research on this. Yes, the back to sleep campaign has been very successful, but that does not mean other things have had no effect. SIDS is a diagnosis when no other cause is found. Perhaps those babies who are immunised see doctors or other health care workers more frequently. Perhaps small signs of potential problems are picked up on just a few of those visits, leading to treatment preventing those problems form becoming deadly. Or perhaps parents who vaccinate are also quicker to seek treatment from health care professionals for their children. Lots of options.

          • Nick Sanders

            Incorrect.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The risk of varicella zoster encephalitis is higher than the risk of vaccine induced encephalitis. Which is one of the reasons that the vaccine was developed in the first place: to reduce the number of people who get brain damage from chicken pox.

          • corblimeybot

            Tell that to my friend who got shingles in her eye.

            I guess you don’t know that shingles can and does cause nerve damage, then? When I had shingles, I was given medication to prevent it from giving me post herpatic neuralgia.

          • Daleth

            A friend of my husband’s had absolutely debilitating postherpetic neuralgia after he got shingles. When the neuralgia hit it was so bad he couldn’t do anything but lie there. When I get into the right age range I’m definitely getting the shingles vaccine.

          • Charybdis

            Shingles sucks on ice. I’ve had it on my back, down my leg and on my foot. The shingles on my foot got a secondary bacterial infection. I’ve had the chickenpox and am too young for the shingles vaccination. If I could have had the varicella vaccination, I would have opted for that instead of chickenpox and shingles.

            Shingles HURTS. There’s no two ways about it, and it can cause lingering neuralgia. NOT a fan of the “natural chickenpox” or “natural immunity”. Give me the shots anytime over being sick and having repercussions years and years later.

          • Wren

            Well, which of the various aluminum salts are you asking about? Or are you another claiming the compound doesn’t matter and all aluminum will act the same?

          • Diet dee

            some aluminium gets retained in organs after injection i would like to know how much in considered harmful to development?

          • Wren

            Some aluminum also gets retained in the organs after eating. Are you equally concerned?

          • Diet dee

            No ingested Aluminum is 99%filtered and excreted in a day. The injected stuff gets an express ride to the internal organs and it take longer to excreted with some people

          • Wren

            Evidence? Citation? And that 1% that is left? What happens to it? Does the form of aluminium matter?

          • Diet dee

            http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview#a4
            No known physiologic need exists for aluminum; however, because of its atomic size and electric charge (0.051 nm and 3+, respectively), it is sometimes a competitive inhibitor of several essential elements with similar characteristics, such as magnesium (0.066 nm, 2+), calcium (0.099 nm, 2+), and iron (0.064 nm, 3+). At physiological pH, aluminum forms a barely soluble Al(OH)3 that can be easily dissolved by minor changes in the acidity of the media.[2]

            Approximately 95% of an aluminum load becomes bound to transferrin and albumin intravascularly and is then eliminated renally. In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. Only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as by intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, does aluminum have the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]

          • Wren

            Nice cut and paste. Would you care to answer in your own words?

          • Diet dee

            When I said it my own words? You wanted a citation. Now you want my own words again? Injected aluminum can be bad if your kidneys can’t get rid of it then bad stuff can happen more more aluminum the greater chance of bad stuff happening.

          • Wren

            If your kidneys can’t get rid of it.

            Extremely important in this discussion. We are not discussing people on dialysis or otherwise facing renal failure. Even if we were, prior to a kidney transplant vaccines are recommended.

            So, we can now dismiss your argument as irrelevant.

          • Diet dee

            Infant/toddler renal function may not be up the task of removing the Al

          • swbarnes2

            Stop making shit up and provide evidence. From peer-reviewed papers about relevant scenarios.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            You have evidence of that, I presume. Or is this just a wild guess?

          • Diet dee

            Yes do but it not worth it to prove that an adult’s renal function is better than a 6 month old!!

          • Azuran

            So, you don’t have evidence.

          • Wren

            That isn’t what I asked for evidence for. Do you have evidence that an otherwise healthy infant or toddler’s kidneys are not up to the task of removing the aluminum?

          • Sonja Henie

            And all of her arguments.

          • Sonja Henie

            LOL!

          • swbarnes2

            Since a one time injection is not an intravenous infusion, and most newborns don’t have renal dysfunction (and we likely don’t give vaccines to babies that do have renal dysfunction) citing this as evidence of your claim is dishonest.

          • Diet dee

            If you bypass the GI tract as in vaccines. You risk accumulation of aluminum. Actually intermuscular injection is worse than IV

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Really? How much aluminum is cleared through the body via first pass metabolism in the liver?

            Also, care to expand on your completely unsupported statement about IM being “worse” than IV?

          • swbarnes2

            Making things up is dishonest. Show proof of accumulation with such small amounts, show clinical problems associated with that quantity of accumulation, or you are a liar.

          • Nick Sanders

            On what basis do you make the claim that it is worse?

          • Sonja Henie

            That’s horse-puckey!

          • Diet dee

            Notice the part that state aluminum is retained when the GI tract is bypassed. That would include everyone getting an injection. If they have poor renal function then aluminum will accumulate even if the GI tract isn’t bypassed

          • swbarnes2

            An honest person would have already linked to the studies showing that a vaccine’s amount delivered in a single injection of Al detectably accumulates, and causes measurable symptoms of clinical import. You are not honest.

            You do know that transferrin is in the bloodstream, right? What does your link claim that transferrin does to aluminum?

          • Diet dee

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318414/
            its long but is sugests that AL injected into the muscles can end up in the brain
            Concerns about long-term biopersistence of alum largely depend on the ability of alum particles to reach and exert toxicity in remote organs. This ability has been suggested by several studies (64–67). The reference study on aluminum hydroxide biodisposition used isotopic 26Al-enriched alum injected in the rabbit muscle: 26Al was weakly eliminated in the urine (6% on day 28) and was detected in lymph nodes, spleen, liver, and brain (13). Whether 26Al was still in particulate form or in soluble form was not explored. The fate of particulate material was explored in mice by our team. We successively performed i.m. injections of alum-containing vaccine, fluorescent latex beads, and fluorescent nanohybrids coated with precipitated alum (5). These materials were quickly captured by macrophages, a large proportion of which cleaved the injected muscle, mainly within immune cells, reaching the draining lymph nodes. Particle-laden cells then escaped the lymphatic system to reach the blood circulation, presumably via the thoracic duct. In so-doing, they were able to reach distant organs such as the spleen and liver and, much slowly, the brain. Recombinant chemokine injection and the use of genetically modified mice showed that systemic biodistribution of particles crucially depends on the monocyte chemoattractant MCP-1/CCL2. Into the brain, particles were mainly found in microglial cells. In accordance with good overall tolerance of alum, brain penetration was extremely low in normal conditions. However, brain translocation was significantly increased in case of altered BBB or after systemic and/or cerebral increase of the MCP-1/CCL2 signaling (5). Expression of this chemokine is subjected to significant interindividual variations related to age, genetic, and environmental factors. We have identified selective increase of circulating MCP-1/CCL2 in CFS/ME patients with MMF (45). The imbalance between the huge number of vaccinated individuals and the relatively low number of MMF cases suggests crucial involvement of individual susceptibility factors in intolerance to alum. Genetically driven MCP-1/CCL2 production might represent one of these factors (5).

            Thus alum and other poorly biodegradable materials taken up at the periphery by phagocytes circulate in the lymphatic and blood circulation and can enter the brain using a Trojan horse mechanism similar to that used by infectious particles (68, 69). Previous experiments have shown that alum administration can cause CNS dysfunction and damage (70–72), casting doubts on the exact level of alum safety (73).

          • Sonja Henie

            Lying liars lie lots. They get addicted to lying.

          • Barzini

            Yeah good one

            Funny how there is currently significant investigation being carried out into a possible link between aluminium and mercury and a whole range of disorders, including alzheimers

            But that no one is investigating a possible link between such disorders and drinking too much fresh water – even though dose makes the poison

          • Chi

            Do you know the difference between an element and a compound? Do you know the difference between ethyl and methyl?

            Do you know what a heavy metal is?

            Which of these is a heavy metal?

            a) ethyl-mercury
            b) methyl-mercury
            c) aluminum

            I’ll give you a hint. It ISN’T a OR c.

            That’s right, aluminum ISN’T a heavy metal. Our body processes it and flushes it like it does all other waste products. Probably something to do with the fact that aluminum is one of the most abundant metals on the planet.

            Also the aluminum in vaccines isn’t elemental aluminum (you know, the stuff soft-drink cans are made of?) It’s a COMPOUND. Which means the body breaks it down and excretes it once it has done its job of attracting the attention of the immune system.

            Also, there is more aluminum in breast milk than there is the entire vaccine schedule put together.

            Lastly. Ethyl-mercury, aka thimerosol isn’t even in ANY vaccines on the schedule and hasn’t been for over a decade. The ONLY vaccine that still has thimerosol in it is the multi-dose flu vaccine vials. If you’re that squeamish about a tiny dose of non-elemental, non bioaccumulating mercury then you can request a single-dose vaccine which is thimerosol free.

            I suggest you learn some basic chemistry before you come around blogs like this spewing the crap you’ve picked up from the likes of mercola and natural news.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Why isn’t ethyl-mercury a “heavy metal”?

          • Chi

            Because it doesn’t accumulate like methyl-mercury does. A heavy metal is any metal that accumulates and builds up in the body and causes heavy metal poisoning.

            Gold, silver, methyl-mercury these are all heavy metals. Ethyl-mercury is broken down and excreted, pretty much the same way the aluminum phosphate is. Can’t remember the exact process but then it’s been a while since I did my university level organic chemistry.

            And anyway, ethyl-mercury is a moot point as it is no longer used in any of the vaccines on the schedule.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Where did you get that definition for “heavy metal”?

          • Chi

            I know that from a chemistry point of view, heavy metals are those with a particularly dense atomic weight.

            However anti-vaxxers like to use the term ‘heavy’ metals to try and justify why thimerosol and aluminum phosphate are ‘neurotoxins’. So yeah I could have phrased that better. I should have put ‘according to anti-vaxxers heavy metals are…’

            Sorry, I realize that comment made me look like a derp. I blame lack of sleep due to toddler having a tummy bug >_<

            But see, unlike an anti-vaxxer I admit when I said something stupid and correct said error. And unlike most anti-vaxxers I did both high school and university level chem and biology (but only first year papers which should still be enough to grasp basic principles like compounds vs elements).

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            From a chemistry point-of-view, organometallic complexes are not metals, heavy or otherwise.

            Do you actually have a source for that definition or are you pulling it out of your ass? Because while I admit that bioinorganic chemistry is not my area of expertise (my PhD is in organic) I have same experience with organometallic complexes and your usage is not consistent with anything I have ever heard.

          • Chi

            -headdesk- Oh man I’m an idiot. Of course the heavy metal definition applies to ELEMENTS aka pure mercury, gold, silver.

            Organometallics are compounds.

            Stupid thing is I know that. I know ethyl and methyl mercury are compounds.

            I’m just going to quietly remove my foot from my mouth and go sit in the corner. Kay?

          • Mike Stevens

            Your Google fu misleads you, Barzini.
            Very high doses of aluminium used in haemodialysis caused a form of dementia in patients with renal failure. And by high, I mean high… Like tens of thousands of times the normal intake.
            This led to some people wondering if aluminium in lower doses than that (but higher than normal intake) were linked to dementia.
            They researched it, and found that no, this is not a risk factor. The science community has already been there and done that. Although there is still the odd maverick researcher who try to show this, to keep their grant money flowing, I guess.

          • Again, compounds aren’t elements.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The aluminum/Alzheimer’s connection has been investigated thoroughly and declared extremely unlikely. Furthermore, the incidence of dementia is decreasing as the number of vaccines increases. Yeah, correlation does not equal causation but lack of correlation is some evidence against causation.

        • Mike Stevens

          More people have died from using seat belts than from the injections, Barzini.

          • Barzini

            The comparison of putting on a seat belt with injecting a pharmaceutical product into a baby is completely ridiculous

          • Mike Stevens

            You are right. One is more dangerous.

          • Barzini

            At least one is free to sue the manufacturers of seat belts

          • Mike Stevens

            You can sue manufacturers in federal court for production defects, and there is a no fault compensation scheme funded by manufacturers for any adverse reactions.
            Why do you need anything else?

          • Barzini

            Come on, you know what I mean

            You can’t file law suits against vaccine manufacturers in the same way that people can with other pharmaceutical products (eg accutane)

            An immunity deal was done with the government

          • Wren

            Was a “deal” done with your government?

            Are you equally concerned about other laws in the US?

            Or are you just parroting antivax points?

          • Sonja Henie

            He’s a parrot, that’s for sure. Then when we really lean on him, he agrees that we’re right, but. . . .

          • Mike Stevens

            The antivaccine activist, Barbara Loe Fisher, negotiated a no fault compensation scheme. This cuts out virtually all the legal agro and paperwork, and plaintiffs costs are covered.
            What’s not to like?

          • Barzini

            Yeah awesome

            Giving manufacturers immunity from consumer lawsuits – fantastic, let’s do that for all pharmaceutical drugs

            Wish we had done that with cigarette manufacturers

          • Wren

            What exactly do you find wrong with the system, one that operates in a different country to the one you live in?

            Manufacturers are not immune from all consumer lawsuits. There is a no fault compensation scheme they pay into that pays out for standard known vaccine injuries and provides a method for claiming for previously unknown injuries. It places a lower burden of proof on the plaintiff than going through the civil court system as well.

          • Wren

            Do you know why this system was created?

          • Mike Stevens

            There are many, many plaintiffs who would be delighted were that the case.
            What happens in your country?

          • Sonja Henie

            Barz might not know, but his country also has a similar program. They’ve had it since, hold on, 1970!
            http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/89/5/10-081901/en/
            https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/20071012/index.html
            *I can’t read this second link, but maybe Barzini can.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “*I can’t read this second link, but maybe Barzini can.”
            If you are using google chrome, when you open it there should be a symbol at the right hand side of the URL bar which you can click on to translate it.

          • Sonja Henie

            Thanks. I don’t know if I’m that interested in the nuts and bolts of the Swiss vaccine injury compensation program. It’s good to know they have one, and had it long before the US. You’d think it would take the wind out of Barz’ sails, but it won’t.

          • Barzini

            Such schemes are common around the world – without them vaccine manufacturers would be reluctant to sell vaccines

          • Mike Stevens

            Nice sources!

          • Barzini

            There are also many many cigarette manufacturers which would be delighted were that the case

          • kfunk937

            Can’t you be arsed looking anything up? Here’s a primer on the history of US tobacco litigation, including the 1998 settlement with US states of a minimum $206 Billions over the first 25 years.

          • Michael McCarthy

            psst, check your link.

          • kfunk937

            ~blush~
            TY. The “embed” got that pretty blue colour, even with the hole in it.

          • Mike Stevens

            At present if someone gets lung cancer, they would have to sue the cigarette manufacturer for causing their cancer. Currently, that particular claim would fail.
            Plaintiffs claiming cigarettes caused their cancer would be thrilled for a no fault compensation which guarantees them damages just for submitting a claim.

            If one has a defined table injury, the same applies to vaccines. Plaintiffs don’t even have the burden of proof of causation to deal with.

            I doubt the tobacco producers would be pleased with that system applying to lung cancer, where they end up paying for all the no fault compensation claims that would be automatically granted.

          • JGC

            The only thing they don’t like is that ASD’s aren’t on the list of table injuries or otherwise recognized by the NVICP as a vaccine injury.

          • Daleth

            Good lord. Ok, since you claim to be living in a foreign country, let me–as an American lawyer–explain how the hell this works. Long story short, we have a special system for alleged vaccine injuries that makes it MUCH EASIER to win your lawsuit than it would be in any other type of lawsuit.

            Here’s how:

            Want to file a normal lawsuit for injury or wrongful death? Say, against a car manufacturer? Ok: hire a lawyer, go to court, and present evidence that (1) the manufacturer did something wrong; (2) you got hurt (or your spouse got killed, etc.); (3) the reason you got hurt (killed, etc.) is because the manufacturer did something wrong, and not for any other reason; and (4) how much the injury or death is worth, in dollars (for instance, how much salary you lost and will lose in the future, etc.).

            Want to file a lawsuit for alleged vaccine-related injury or death? You literally don’t even need a lawyer, although having one makes the process easier for you. But all you have to prove is:

            (1) you (or your kid, etc., whoever you’re suing for) got X vaccination on Y date; and

            (2) within a set amount of time after that vaccination–or for some vaccinations, ANY time after it, even many years–you/your kid/etc. experienced any one or more of the health problems listed here:
            http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf

            See the difference? You don’t have to present any evidence at all that the vaccine caused the health problem. You just have to show that you got the shot and then experienced the health problem. If you do that, the case is over and YOU WIN.

            Now that you understand this, do you still have a problem with it?

          • Barzini

            The vaccine companies are extremely happy with this arrangement

            I have the same system in my country, many other countries have the same system – I’m not attacking the US

          • Daleth

            The vaccine companies are extremely happy with this arrangement

            So are the people who were injured (and those who only think they were injured) by vaccines. They’re extremely happy because it’s so incredibly easy to win in vaccine court, compared to any other court on earth.

            So it’s kind of a win-win situation. I’m still unclear as to what your problem with it is.

          • Barzini

            Companies can not be brought to court in the same way they can for other products – they are effectively immune

            As long as they pay the tax on each dose, they know they will not face any law suit which could cripple them

            I see this as a bad thing, the threat of such law suits plays an important role

          • Wren

            They can still be brought to court for poor standards in manufacturing or falsifying data to bring a new vaccine to market. They just cannot be brought to court for the rare adverse effects of vaccination. If they could, they would stop manufacturing vaccines after the first lawsuit or two, which would lead to devastating effects on public health.

            It is a lie to say they cannot be sued. They simply cannot be sued for adverse effects of correctly produced vaccines.

          • Sonja Henie

            And I will point out that it is harder to win such a personal-injury suit in regular court. “Vaccine Court” has some no-fault table injuries, and in other cases the evidence is much less than required in civil court.

          • Wren

            Are you even in the US?

          • Mike Stevens

            Switzerland, he said.
            Land of vaccine deniers and measles epidemics.

          • Wren

            That’s what I thought.

            I have no clue whether one can sue vaccine manufacturers in Switzerland. The US has set their own rules on that.

          • Barzini

            No

          • Sonja Henie

            No, he says he lives in Switzerland. Of course, you can’t believe a word any anti-vaxer says.

    • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild

      Uh, so you haven’t noticed all the people not getting polio or small pox anymore?

      • Barzini

        There’s plenty of emotional videos and pictures from both the vax and anti vax sides as you well know

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQqzi8_PWk

        • Nick Sanders

          It’s not an appeal to emotion, it’s showing the factual consequences of these diseases. Pretty much every one of those claims about HPV or another vaccine paralyzing people has been shown to not actually have been caused by the vaccine at best, and outright faked at worst.

        • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild

          Yes, but only the pro-vaccination ones are fact based.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s not even an appeal to emotion. “We have evidence X will happen. X is objectively bad for [reasons].” In this case X is the return of vaccine preventable diseases, and the reasons are that they have a high likelihood of causing disability, disfigurement, and sometimes death. While they are emotional subjects in this scenario, you don’t have to feel emotional about them to rationally conclude that they should be avoided.

          • Barzini

            The brain washing is strong with this one – such faith

          • Barzini

            So the girl in the wheelchair is lying?

            Because vaccines never cause injuries? That’s seriously your argument?

          • DigMed

            That’s the straw-man fallacy that people with no valid argument frequently revert to in order to get out of an untenable, self-inflicted tight spot.

  • Barzini

    I agree that this challenge is a fair one. I also admit that I lack the knowledge to partake.

    However, I notice that the question is: Prove that vaccines are more harmful than beneficial.

    I do actually know quite a lot of anti-vaxers where I live (Switzerland) – almost 100% of them agree that vaccination is beneficial, they are campaigning for safer vaccines, more spaced out scheduling, no triple jabs, no mercury/aluminium, the ability to sue vaccine manufacturers, better testing, etc…..

    I eventually got round to seeing Vaxxed last night – I wasn’t that impressed by the film – but even they are only concerned with safer vaccines, not stopping vaccination.

    I also saw another film called Trace Amounts recently – I agree it was flawed also, however that film is also only calling for safer vaccination.

    People like Susan Humphries and Christopher Shaw also appear to be calling for safer vaccination, not an end to vaccination.

    • Nick Sanders

      “Safer vaccination” is a dodge. Vaccines are safer now than they were 30 years ago, in another 30 years they’ll be safer still, but even that will not be enough to satisfy them. No amount of improvement will. They’ll just keep on moving the goalposts, all while holding up that tissue paper thin screen of “I just want safer vaccines, I’m not anti-vaccine”.

      • Barzini

        I don’t see how it’s a dodge….

        A person who campaigns for the removal of mercury from vaccines and then opts for a mercury free vaccine is doing just that – they aren’t dodging anything

        A person who is anti MMR but pro individual vaccinations is just that

        A person who thinks the schedule should be more spread out, or that certain vaccinations shouldn’t be given until after 24 months is hardly anti vaccination

        A researcher looking into the possibility of a link between disorders like alzheimers and aluminium from vaccines is simply doing their job

        None of these people would be able to meet the conditions set out in the challenge above – nor would they be interested in doing so

        • Nick Sanders

          You don’t see how it’s a dodge because you haven’t been following the issue. To take your first example, the people who campaigned for “mercury”-free vaccines didn’t start vaccinating or even ease up on the anti-vaccine rhetoric when the USA removed thiomersal from the childhood vaccination schedule, they just moved on to other ingredients and kept on chanting the same claims.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, now they’re greatly focused on aluminum, which some of them think is actually a preservative. Aluminum was in all the vaccines it’s in all along, when they were ranting on about mercury. Some of them are still ranting about mercury.

          • Aluminum is the new mercury. Next up: Aborted baby parts.

          • Mike Stevens

            Monkey pus!!!11!!
            Never forget the monkey pus!

          • Nick Sanders

            I thought it was monkey kidneys, or in the case of one particularly deluded rambler I saw several years ago, monkey balls.

          • Mike Stevens

            Kidneys….pus….whichever….
            Antivaxers don’t draw distinctions between these, indeed they probably don’t realise they are different.
            Just as long as it sounds scary, they will borrow the term.

          • Barzini

            I know parents who opted to give their children individual vaccines as opposed to the MMR, I know parents who followed a more spaced out schedule (with full acceptance from their doctor), I know other parents who waited until 24 months as opposed to 15 months for some vaccines, I know others who always opt for the non-mercury vaccines when possible

            I presume you do to…..

            I also know parents who believe in chemtrails, lizard people and that vaccines are part of a depopulation agenda – I get the impression you are focusing on this latter (and miniscule) group when discussing anti-vaxers

          • Amazed

            I know a certain poster who screams, “Aluminium, aluminium, beware aluminium!” and childishly retorts, “You can inject yourself with neurotoxins, no one is stopping you!” each time he’s bombarded with facts. Somehow, I don’t think he’s the authority on discussing who is a fool and who isn’t.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            And yet some countries have a more delayed schedule compared with the US

          • Nick Sanders

            Name. Them.

          • Barzini

            What? Seriously? You think every country in the world has the same vaccine schedule?

          • Nick Sanders

            No, but I think industrialized countries have generally comparable schedules. And I will continue to think so unless shown evidence otherwise. It is not my job to verify your argument for you.

          • Barzini

            I agree they are generally comparable, but they aren’t the same are they?

            Each country looks at the data and decides accordingly

            Some countries were quicker than others to remove thimerosal, some countries removed the MMR, etc….

            I remember reading that a child in the US is likely to have more than double the number of vaccines than one in Denmark – I don’t know what the figures are, or if that is true, I will look when I have the time, but they are obviously not the same are they?

            So scientists in each country make different recommendations for a whole bunch of reasons

          • Azuran

            the US is a very large country with a lot of different climates and a lot of tourism. Which means that depending on where you live in the country, you are more likely to be exposed to different kind of disease.
            Denmark is a very small, very northern, isolated country.

            Their need in vaccination are obviously going to be very different and not actually based on ‘safety’

          • Sonja Henie

            The only country that “removed” MMR was Japan, and promptly had a rubella epidemic with 40+ cases of congenital rubella syndrome. The birth defects from CRS are permanent and may be devastating. They gave a vaccine called “MR” and then mumps separately, however, they induced the fear (FUD) and people weren’t getting anything. They’ve just recently been declared rubella free again, due to an effort to get people vaxxed. I posted the entire schedule of the European Centre for Disease Control and Prevention for your edification a few days ago. It has the schedule of every country in Europe except Russia. You obviously didn’t open it, afraid to, eh? It might involve “Dissolving Illusions” for you, right?

            Denmark has one of the lighter schedules in Europe. I see you didn’t mention say, France or Germany, Canada, Australia or the UK, which have schedules more like ours. In fact, some of those countries use vaccines that the US doesn’t use! You have links to all of these. Look at them, why doncha?

          • yugaya

            Russia has the same childhood vaccination schedule as the rest of Europe, and it’s mandatory like in many other countries here
            .

          • Sonja Henie

            Good to know. It’s not on the schedule I have.

          • yugaya
          • Sonja Henie

            Thank you! While I don’t read Russian, I get the point!

          • Barzini

            I agree with all that, I’m not trying to demonize the US – I was pointing out that each country has a different schedule, some lighter, some heavier, some with or without certain vaccines

            Do you believe that Denmark is being irresponsible?

          • Azuran

            The ‘CDC’ equivalent of any individual country (which is composed of a huge number of specialists in various medical fields) evaluating the risks of different disease in their own country is on a whole different scale than one individual parent deciding on which vaccines should be given at what moment to their child. The parents have no education nor enough information to make such a call.

          • Sonja Henie

            No, I did not say that.

          • Kerlyssa

            And do you understand why they have different schedules? Hint: a hell of a lot more goes into designing the schedules than the chemical makeup of the vaccines.

            Eh, who am I kidding. You’re still touting thimerosol removal as being for health concerns, rather than the misguided attempt at appeasing the conspiracy theorist parents that it was.

          • Nick Sanders

            more spaced out and less heavy vaccination schedules

            And yet some countries have a more delayed schedule compared with the US

            I agree they are generally comparable, but they aren’t the same are they?

            Put the goalpost back where you fucking had it, I’m tired of this bullshit.

          • Daleth

            I remember reading that a child in the US is likely to have more than double the number of vaccines than one in Denmark – I don’t know what the figures are, or if that is true

            Not true. Scroll to Denmark at the link I posted, which for your convenience I’m posting again here.
            http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx

            The only differences I see between the US and Denmark are:

            – Shots we give at 2, 4 and somewhere between 6 and 15 months are given in Denmark at 3, 5 and 12 months.

            – They sadly don’t require the rotavirus vaccine. That’s not even a shot–it’s just an edible liquid, with none of the supposed chemical concerns you’ve mentioned–and it spares babies and their families a lot of misery, as well as saving lives. Sad that they don’t have it in Denmark.

            – They don’t require the chicken pox vaccine. Also sad, since it spares children and their families a lot of misery and saves some lives (chicken pox can kill a perfectly healthy child, and that still happens in countries like the UK where they don’t give the vaccine: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2987974/Parents-heartbreak-baby-boy-dies-chickenpox-caught-big-brother.html)

            – They don’t give Hep B to all newborns, only those in higher-risk groups.

            – They do require the HPV vaccine for girls.

            So that’s two shots they don’t require that we do require (Heb B and chicken pox), one edible liquid they don’t require that we do (rotavirus), and one shot they do require that we don’t (HPV).

            There is no way an honest person can claim that American kids get “more than double” the vaccines as Danish kids. Not even close.

          • Barzini

            This is really useful

          • Daleth

            Glad to help.

          • Barzini

            I eventually tracked down the article I was looking for, it basically claims that kids in the US have an average of over 40 shots by 24 months while those in Denmark have an average of just 21

            http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/janak/080605

            What do you think?

          • Wren

            It is absolutely not 40 shots.

          • Barzini

            Yeah, I agree it sounds too high

          • Wren

            Count them on the link you gave. It just plain is not 40 shots. The MMR, for example, is 3 vaccines in one shot, not 3 shots.

          • Barzini

            I think it’s vaccines that are being counted – not shots

            So the MMR would = 3 vaccines I presume

            But I agree that 41 sounds too high

          • Wren

            What number did you come up with, even counting separate vaccines rather than separate shots? Remember, this was by 2, not by adulthood.

          • Barzini

            I’m struggling to understand the table actually – that’s why I was asking what people thought

            I make it a maximum of 32 – but I’m pretty I’m reading it wrong

          • Wren

            By 24 months (so not those given from 2 years onward) that table shows 21, with another 3 given at 2 years. This is actually approximately 34 vaccines (influenza may vary depending on how the birthday sits relative to flu season). What is often ignored is that there is far less antigen given per vaccine now than a generation ago, leading to kids today getting less antigen in total.

          • Barzini

            and is that counting each MMR as 3 vaccines?

          • Wren

            Yes. And also counting the DTaP as 3.

          • Wren

            I should add, I counted the PCV as a single vaccine, but it does have antigens to somewhere between 7 and 13 strains.

          • Sonja Henie

            The PCV given these days in the US has 13 strains. But, the polio has 3. Rotateq has 5. Basically, these anti-vaxers don’t know what they’re talking about when they count “vaccines”.

          • Wren

            Oh, I know that. I was just making it clear I was only counting separate diseases, not separate strains.

            I wasn’t about to look up which countries give which PCV vaccine, which is why I left it at 7-13.

          • Sonja Henie

            I’m not really disagreeing with you, I’m just pointing out how dumb the anti-vaxers are. They are prime examples of Dunning-Kruger. I think all PCV is now 13 strains, but I’m not positive either.

          • Wren

            Denmark routinely has fewer vaccines. That is true. HepB, for example, is only given in certain populations. The chart used in your link is deliberately truncated to leave off HepB.

            The UK also gives Hep B selectively, and BCG selectively. Chicken pox is also given on the NHS in certain situations. It is very possible for a UK child to receive over 30 vaccines by 24 months too.

          • Barzini

            According to this link: http://everythingbirthblog.com/2011/05/delayed-vaccination-schedule-fact-sheet/

            The CDC recommends 26 doses during the first year of life

            I’m not saying this is a good site, I’ve just been trying to see what the number is

          • Wren

            That link did not show 40 shots, or even 40 vaccinations by 2 years of age. One chart did make it appear that there were way more by ticking the box for a number of ages possible for a single dose.

            I also happen to know that Hep B is given to some newborns in the UK, with subsequent doses given when due. It is not currently given to all newborns. Chicken pox is also not given routinely, which is due more to the cost to the NHS than anything like concerns about safety.

          • Nick Sanders

            At 24 months, I count at most, 30 doses, if they get 3 doses of rotavirus, 4 doses of Hib, and 2 doses of each of three separate annual flu vaccines. More likely, they’ll get one of the brands of Hib vaccine that’s only 3 doses, and 1 dose each of two annual flu vaccines so, 24/25. (Rotavirus has only two brands, one is 2 doses the other 3, so as far as I know, it’s a tossup)

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf

          • corblimeybot

            It’s hilarious that you think it’s self-evident that that number would sound too high. I can’t see the problem in being effectively protected against VPDs, so it’s just a big shrug to me.

          • Azuran

            I would add: Proof that they have a lower rate of vaccine complication.

          • Barzini

            I’m not claiming that

          • Azuran

            Then what’s the point of saying that people are right to ask for alternative schedule if there is no proof that it’s better?

          • yugaya

            So why bring it up then? Some people drive drunk. I don’t see you argue how we should all be looking up to them.

          • yugaya

            Barzini mind the goalposts – you claimed that some unnamed countries have a more delayed schedule than USA. Name those countries and let’s look at the differences.

        • Azuran

          But those people are still uneducated fools who are propagating false medical information and that are doing useless, potentially dangerous things that are not supported by science.

          How is getting 3 separate vaccine better than having 1? That’s 3 time the ingredients and 3 times the risk of an allergic or adverse reaction.

          There is no proof that spacing out vaccination reduces the risks. It just lets your kid be more vulnerable all the time.
          Sure, when face with either spacing vaccine or no vaccine at all, doctors are going to agree to spacing them.
          But those people, while somewhat better than complete anti-vaxxers, are still uneducated fools.

          • Barzini

            I think ‘uneducated fools’ is exactly the type of language we don’t need

            We have removed mercury from most vaccines for children now – were the scientists, researchers and doctors calling for that uneducated and fools?

            Are the scientists, researchers and doctors in countries which have different, more spaced out and less heavy vaccination schedules to the US uneducated and fools?

            Are researchers looking into potential links between aluminium and mercury and disorders like alzheimers uneducated and fools?

            I really don’t think so. I think they could be wrong, or over cautious, but I really don’t see how they are uneducated or fools.

            Many of the parents who believe their child was injured by a vaccine obviously are uneducated (in terms of science). However, I still wouldn’t call them fools and, as we know here, some of them are actually correct – in some cases their children really were injured by vaccines…..

          • Azuran

            As we told you multiple time already. We removed thiomersal although there wasn’t any valid scientific reason to do so in an effort to make anti-vaxxers feel better. It changed absolutely nothing. And anti-vaxxers didn’t change their mind.
            The people who figured a way to make vaccines without it are not fools.
            But anti-vaxxers who asked for it for no reason and still refused to get vaccines after it was done are indeed fools.

            There are a lot of way to make equally safe and effective vaccine schedule. Any individual country or doctor could decide to make one specific schedule following the general standard, depending on the type of vaccines and prevalence of illness they have. They are not fool.
            But a parent who comes in demanding X specific vaccines given in Y specific schedule because their birth yoga instructor told them it was the safest one is indeed a fool.

            Research into Alzheimer really have nothing to do with it. You need to change your disk about that one.

          • Barzini

            During the proceedings held to determine whether to remove mercury from vaccines, a number of leading scientists said it should be removed on the record

            These people are certainly educated, and it seems highly unlikely they are fools

            I posted one such quote before on the other thread

            This determination to paint every single person who doesn’t agree with you as uneducated and a fool is tiring

          • Azuran

            As tiring as you posting those videos all the time and your constant talk about aluminum?
            I never said those scientist were fools. I said anti-vaxxers are uneducated fools and I stand by it 100%

          • Please take a chemistry course.

          • Nick Sanders

            Are the scientists, researchers and doctors in countries which have different, more spaced out and less heavy vaccination schedules to the US uneducated and fools?

            And which countries would those be?

          • Barzini

            Every country has a different schedule, the US seems to give a higher average number of vaccines per child than most others

            From what I remember it gives some vaccines at an earlier age, while some countries removed thimerosal before or after the US also – just as you would expect, it varies by country

          • Nick Sanders

            I asked for specifics, not this mealy-mouthed “seems to”.

          • Barzini

            Go find them then, you know as well as I do that the schedule and the contents of the schedule varies by country, how could they not?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Daleth

            To help you out, or really to help you discover that this garbage some antivaxxers fed you about more vaccines being used in the US is garbage, here’s a European Union government website where you can look up the vaccine schedules of all EU countries:

            http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx

          • Sonja Henie

            Actually, it wasn’t scientists, researchers and doctors calling for the removal of thimerosal. It was parent activists. I believe we discussed yesterday how the WHO disagreed with this removal, as it raised the price of vaccines.

            As has been repeated over and over again, most countries have vaccine schedules similar to that of the US. They all seem to “bundle” the vaccines, not spread them out more. I have not found that to be the case in any country.

          • Sonja Henie

            ETA: The US, Australia and a number of countries in Europe start Hep B at birth, then the other vaccines at 2 months. Many other countries including Canada start everything at 2 months. Some few start everything at three months. No one starts later than that, not even Japan.

          • Amazed

            “We” don’t need?

            YOU don’t need it. Because you think you and the likes of you are caring and intelligent and not the moronic freeloaders that you are. What WE, on the other hand, don’t need is validating your illusions. We already saw how talking to you as if you were a rational human being went – you kept throwing tantrums and scream “aluminium, neurotoxins, youtube, rinse and repeat”.

            What WE need is to make you understand that your choice isn’t a respected, rational and accepted one.

          • Michael McCarthy

            “There is no proof that spacing out vaccination reduces the risks”
            But there is evidence it is more harmful

        • Charybdis

          For about the gazillionth time, VACCINES DO NOT CONTAIN MERCURY. THEY HAVEN’T FOR 15+ YEARS WHICH WAS WHEN IT WAS REMOVED AS A PRESERVATIVE.

          The only vaccine that still contains thimerosal is the flu vaccine that is kept/marketed in a multiple dose vial. That’s it. That’s all. Nearly all vaccines are in single dose vials these days, so there is no need for a preservative. To reiterate: SINGLE DOSE FLU VACCINES DO NOT CONTAIN THIMEROSAL.

          Now for the aluminum salts you are so upset about. Live, viral vaccines such as the MMR, rotavirus and varicella DO NOT contain aluminum salts as adjuvants. The vaccines that contain the aluminum adjuvants are: Hep A & B, DTaP, HiB and pneumococcal vaccines and HPV vaccines.

          So now that it has been proven that the MMR does not contain aluminum adjuvants or thimerosal preservatives, what exactly is the main concern regarding the vaccine?

        • COMPOUNDS STILL AREN’T ELEMENTS!!!!!

          If the campaigner doesn’t understand that (because again, a 9th grader is expected to understand that), they have no business campaigning against global scientific and medical consensus.

      • Sonja Henie

        Barzini should be more concerned about “safer cigarettes” than “safer vaccines”. It’s funny what lengths these smokers will go to justify smoking, yet worry about a trace ingredient in a vaccine.

        • Barzini

          You do realize that’s not actually me?

          But I would certainly be all for safer cigarettes, and such things do actually exist

          • Sonja Henie

            The H*ll safer cigarettes exist! It’s so funny the lenghts smokers will go to justify smoking! No, I didn’t know it was not a picture of you.

          • Barzini

            I’m not a smoker, hate it…..

            But some cigarettes are less unhealthy than others

          • Sonja Henie

            Snort!

          • Barzini

            Surely you agree that low tar cigarettes are less dangerous than high tar ones?

            Governments around the world have been putting pressure on tobacco companies to reduce tar levels for that very reason

          • Azuran

            Yea sure, a 1900% increase in lung cancer is so much better than a 2000% increase.

          • Barzini

            Exactly my point

            I’m not claiming smoking isn’t dangerous – I claimed some cigarettes are more dangerous than others

            You’re not even disagreeing with me

          • Azuran

            Actually, I am. This was sarcasm.
            Both are incredibly dangerous and the slight decrease in risk is actually totally meaningless.

          • Barzini

            A slight decrease in risk means it is safer

            Just as how it’s safer to drive at 100 mph than 110 mph

          • Sonja Henie

            No, I don’t agree and nor does the National Cancer Institute.
            http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/tobacco/light-cigarettes-fact-sheet

          • Barzini

            They are claiming low tar cigarettes aren’t healthier because people suck on them more or something

            Whatever, per gram or cm or however you want to measure it, high tar cigarettes are more carcinogenic

            If you absolutely had to smoke 20 cigarettes a day for some reason, then it would be better to smoke a low tar cigarette than a high tar one – obviously both are dangerous

            Governments around the world have been forcing cigarette producers to lower tar levels for that very reason, along with other measures such as no TV advertising, etc…..

          • Sonja Henie

            Give some proof that “(g)overnments around the world have been forcing cigarette producers to lower tar levels for that very reason”. Now.

          • Barzini

            The maximum tar level per cigarette in the EU was reduced from 12mg in 2002 to 10mg in 2006 for starters…..

            Such reductions are being seen worldwide, there are many examples which I can’t be bothered looking for

          • Sonja Henie

            Interesting about the EU. You can’t be bothered with anything else because you don’t have anything.

          • Charybdis

            Surely you can agree that vaccines with low aluminum salt content are less dangerous than ones with higher aluminum salt content?

          • Barzini

            Absolutely

          • Charybdis

            I don’t think you do, mainly because you continue to harp on “aluminum! neurotoxin! No vaccines for me and mine!”. It you thought it was safe/r now, you wouldn’t be bitching to high heaven about it.

      • yugaya

        It’s a hypocrisy- you all go ahead and vaccinate for the sake of the herd immunity, but my speshul snowflake is too speshul for that.

        Not all antivaxxers are stupid, some are just completely selfish.

      • Azuran

        Seriously, vaccines are the safest of all the tools of modern medicine.
        Honestly, more people die from adverse to birth control, antibiotics, AINs and basically every other medication out there. any kind of anesthesia or surgery is more risky than the entire vaccination schedule.
        And here they are, complaining that vaccines are not safe enough. But they sure as hell don’t seem half as concerned about the risk of anything else.

    • yugaya

      He saw some movies. Not very good movies, mind you, but it’s the vaccines. He believes.

      Dr Tuteur FTW.

      Barzini – you clearly lack the capacity to understand why leaving this comment in reply to this challenge is a perfect example of the antivaxx ignorance.

      • Barzini

        I agree the films are flawed and unimpressive, I made that clear

        I was pointing out that even those films aren’t telling people not to vaccinate – they are campaigning for safer vaccines

        • Azuran

          Vaccines are probably the safest of all the medical product and procedure. And we ARE constantly trying to make them even safer. But it’s not a process that can happen overnight, it takes years, even decade to make sure a new product is safe and effective.
          If they were truly concerned about safety, they would campaign about something else.

        • Amazed

          Meanwhile saying that current vaccines should not be used. Which means – gasp! – not vaccinating.

          What your cherished Fakefield and other youtubers are saying is that they want the perfect vaccine. Which cannot be invented. But I get the feeling that you already know this. The perfect vaccine, or we aren’t vaccinating!

          • Barzini

            Wakefield vaccinates his own children

            Sears vaccinates both his own and other children – what are you talking about?

          • Sonja Henie

            Playing this little game again, eh? Just keep repeating your point, Mario.

          • Barzini

            You’re the one playing games, you continue to insist that someone who vaccinates his own children is telling people to stop all vaccination

            However deluded or evil he may well be, he obviously is campaigner for ‘safer’ vaccination, not ‘no’ vaccination

          • Sonja Henie

            He’s full of BS. He’s just been indicted for this phony vaccine exemption he wrote. He’s contributed to the FUD movement about immunizations. He says in this article: http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-adv-vaccines-doctor-bob-20140907-story.html
            “At a conference this year in Rancho Mirage, Sears told a roomful of
            pregnant women, new mothers and healthcare professionals that vaccines work well and are responsible for the nation’s low disease rate, something parents who don’t want to immunize can take advantage of.” In other words, he’s condoning “hiding in the herd”. And he made this inane comment just a few months before the measles epidemic in his home area.

            Lesser known is that he runs a “cash only” practice, meaning he does not take insurance. Why? Because his practices are so much at odds with the standards. But he gets to charge his patients, probably $200 or so a crack, for each visit they make to carry out his “alternative” schedule, plus for the vaccines. He also has an online supplement shop. What a swine you are defending. He’s not into “safe vaccines”; he’s into “safe bank account for Dr. Sears”.

          • Barzini

            I’m not defending, I don’t know anything about him apart from a few articles

            I’m pointing out that he is not telling people to stop vaccinating, I’m pointing out that (like Wakefield) he wants safer vaccines

          • corblimeybot

            He DOES NOT CARE about “safer vaccines”. He cares about running a woo empire under the auspices of his MD training.

            You’ve admitted he’s a fraud and an asshole, but you’re willing to give him a break because he agrees with this particular nonsense belief of yours. Think about what that makes you sound like.

          • Sonja Henie

            You sure as h*ll are defending. This “safe vaccines” shtick is a crock, as we’ve previously discussed. Dr. Sears knows better; he’s just in it for the money.

          • Sonja Henie

            You are aware by now, I’m sure, that Sears is now facing disciplinary action from the CA medical board. He could lose his license.
            http://www.ocregister.com/articles/sears-728409-medical-board.html

          • Nick Sanders

            You keep bringing up Wakefield. Someone who wants safety does not perform invasive testing on kids without the approval on an ethics board. He can say whatever he likes, but his actions show him out.

        • MaineJen

          “Safer vaccines” is an anti vax dog whistle. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something.

          • Barzini

            The leading anti-vaxers like Wakefield and Sears vaccinate their own children – what are you talking about?

        • Sonja Henie

          These films, or rather the people in the films, are telling people not to vaccinate now.

          • Barzini

            Wakefield? Sears? They both vaccinate their own children…..

            Sears vaccinated other children also as part of his job and even has his own vaccine schedule – they obviously aren’t telling people to not vaccinate

          • Sonja Henie

            Have you read Sears’ book? He’s a crank and a quack. He’s also getting indicted. It’s a damn bout time! http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oc-vaccine-doctor-20160908-snap-story.html
            He does tell people they can skip the MMR-in Southern California with all its tourists! Then the pr*ck tells parents to keep quiet about it and “hide in the herd”.
            “His stance has been criticized by fellow pediatricians for misinforming parents about the in-depth testing of vaccines and downplaying the dangers of vaccine-preventable diseases.”

          • Barzini

            Yes, but he does vaccinate both his own children and other children

            He is therefore obviously not against vaccination

            So to claim he wants safer vaccines is true – by all means argue that he is a quack or deluded, but don’t claim that he secretly wants to end vaccination – he obviously doesn’t

            The same is true for Wakefield – he has a problem with some vaccines, not vaccination

          • Azuran

            He has a problem with the safety of the safest of all our medical product out there, and the one that saves more lives.
            We are already working all the time to produce safer vaccines. He’s perpetuating the false believe that vaccines are unsafe and scaring parents away from them.

          • Nick Sanders

            Like I said, it’s clear Barzini is willfully ignorant of anything that contradicts their stance.

          • scotty perey

            Telling parents not to vaccinate but admonishing them not to tell *other* parents not to vaccinate so as to enjoy the socio-medical benefits of the other parents’ vaccinations! I was blown away when i read about that in Dr. Offit’s book, and *so* glad to see this guy in the hot seat finally. Thanks for the link, this was the first I heard of it. The bulk of the comments in the LATimes piece are pretty disheartening, but I guess that’s still par for the course, sadly. (Although I do see there is a new clever little epithet being presently volleyed at all of us “vaxtremisits” ha ha…)

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          And at what level of safety do you think these people will be satisfied?

          • Barzini

            I really don’t know…..

            If someone recommends avoiding having a bunch of shots on the same day, but instead spreading them out, or putting some off until (for example) after 24 months, then it looks like they believe it would be safer to do that

            Even if wrong, it doesn’t sound like the ramblings of a crazy fool or an uneducated moron

          • Azuran

            If you cannot provide any kind of scientific evidence to support your claim, then yes, making that claim anyway makes you an uneducated fool.

          • Amazed

            Perhaps not a crazy fool. An uneducated moron, though? Absolutely. While they whine and tremble over their poor wee chiwdwen taking too many shots at once in their pewfect fwagile wittwe bodies, did they think of contacting the VPDs and ask them to kindly leave their children alone while they, with their vast Google education, deem it’s safe to give them the shots needed to protect them and everyone around them?

            Once again you try to paint that as educated. As not moronic. It is uneducated and moronic.

          • Charybdis

            Because we all encounter bacteria and viruses singularly, one at a time, in a prescribed order. Because cross-contamination never happens, nor do kids eat, drink and be merry in a sterile bubble. Nobody ever sneezes or coughs without covering their mouth/nose and viruses and bacteria can’t survive in the air or on surfaces for a long period of time. Parents don’t share bites of food or sips of beverages with their kids and babies and toddlers don’t drool or chew on their toys, nor do they tend to their runny noses.

            *Obviously* germs are not spread in such a manner.

          • Amazed

            Careful here, Charybdis. You’re talking to the guy who thinks that 4 000 people need to get measles to account for 2 cases of SSPE. The guy who thinks that 0,3% of a person can be infected with measles.

            He might not get your sarcasm.

          • Charybdis

            Yeah, s/he didn’t get how one teenager with measles could infect 6 other younger children in a waiting room. Thought that claim sounded “suspicious”.

            Maybe we should ask if s/he has heard of Typhoid Mary. Asymptomatic carrier, infected large numbers of people despite not getting sick herself. Wonder how that jives with the anti-vax mindset.

          • Azuran

            Obviously Typhoid Mary had been vaccinated with a special GMO vaccine and just shed it everywhere.

          • Charybdis

            REALLY? They had teh evil GMO’s way back then? Who knew?

          • Azuran

            of course. That’s why they ‘quarantined’ her. She was a valuable test subject for their depopulation plan and they wanted to study the effect of their ‘vaccine’ 😉

          • There is no evidence to back any advantages to doing this. That’s just a myth put forward by “Dr.” Sears and whacko politicians. The vaccine schedule was not arrived at randomly. Nor should it be dismissed with evidence to show there would be any advantage. There are obvious disadvantages, as the child is unprotected for that much longer during a period when they are highly susceptible.

          • swbarnes2

            Do you have any EVIDENCE that it’s safe to have multiple shots instead of one? Or are you just telling us what you wish were true, and pretending that you know the facts?

            Do you have any evidence that it’s safer for a child to be wide open to measles infection for longer than the CDC recommends? Because when you delay shots that’s what you are supporting and advocating for.

          • Nortonsb@tcd.ie

            Well how about you personally then? You’ve been spinning the “Safer vaccine” angle, what rate of adverse events would vaccines need to have before you are willing to vaccinate?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Barzini

            From the same article:

            “Vaccination is important and protective. But it cannot be forced; a parent must give consent”

          • Nick Sanders

            Show me one vaccination that has happened in the USA without consent.

          • Barzini

            my point is that he advocates vaccination – he isn’t going around telling people not to vaccinate, he isn’t going around telling people that vaccination is more risky than VPD diseases

            Therefore he wouldn’t even try and reply to the Dr Amy anti-vax challenge – neither would the vast majority of anti-vaxers

          • Nick Sanders

            He “advocates” vaccination, yet he wrote an exemption without getting a medical history, authored an opinion piece opposing SB277 on incredibly flimsy grounds, and sells a book touting his own custom vaccination schedule that evenhe admitted has no evidence to back it up. At this point I must conclude that you are willfully ignoring hypocrisy and double dealing by any of the people who enable your bullshit.

          • Barzini

            There are plenty of people who oppose SB277 but who vaccinate their own children

            The fact that he promotes a vaccination schedule surely proves that he advocates vaccination?

            How could someone who promotes vaccination take part in the challenge detailed above? The challenge above is only for people who do not vaccinate ever…..

            This guy vaccinates his own children and the children of others and even has his own vaccine schedule – he’s pro vaccination

          • Charybdis

            No, he is not pro-vaccination. He believes that recently vaccinated people (children included) can infect others by “shedding”. At a town hall meeting where Dr. Sears was speaking about SB277, there was a caveat to attending: No recently vaxxed people/children were welcome because of fear of infection by “shedding”.

            Which is SO not a thing with all but live polio vaccines.**

            **oral, live polio vaccines *can* be shed in the feces and *might* be a consideration, but we use the Salk version (dead, inactivated virus).

          • Barzini

            He vaccinates his own children and other children and even has his own vaccination schedule – on what planet is this man campaigning for an end to vaccination?

            He is campaigning for ‘safer’ vaccination

          • Charybdis

            Bullshit. He is NOT campaigning for safer vaccination. He panders and caters to the anti-vax crowd, sells medical exemptions for vaccines to people who are not his patients, without having seen the child in question and encourages them in the mistaken viewpoint that vaccines are not safe. He indulges their vaccine paranoia and says things like “recently vaccinated children not welcome at the anti SB277 town hall meeting where he was speaking because of “shedding” and that there would be unvaxxed folks placed in danger by this non-existent “shedding”.

            Sell the “he’s for SAFER vaccination” tripe elsewhere. We aren’t buying.

          • Barzini

            You’re totally wrong, and what’s funny is that you know you’re wrong

            You know that he vaccinates not only his own children, but also the children of other parents, you also know that he even has his own vaccine schedule

            And yet, for some reason, instead of accepting that he is obviously pro vaccination (albeit in a certain way), you are determined to paint him as being someone who wants people to stop vaccinating

            I don’t support this guy by the way, the only time I’ve heard him speak was in Vaxxed, and he came over as being phony and insincere

            But I still don’t get why you think he wants people to stop vaccinating – he vaccinates his own children for goodness sake

          • Charybdis

            Nope, I’m not wrong about Dr. Sears.

            Haven’t you ever heard of “Do as I say, not as I do?”

            Your disconnect is in the “delayed vaxxers are not anti-vaxxers, not really. They just want to do it their way or ignore years of studies and safety and efficacy and space vaccinations out or insist on non-combination shots”. It is a bait-and-switch tactic. That’s all. Keep people sidetracked onto a minor detail, or something that has already been dealt with and keep stirring the pot. Agitating by moving the goalposts: “Thimerosal has MERCURY and it is in VACCINES for the love of Pete! It goes into your BABIES bloodstream!” Umm…no, not any more. Thimerosal has been removed from all childhood vaccines and has been gone for 15+ years. Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream, they are injected into large muscles like quadriceps or the gluteus maximus. “Huh. Okay, but what about aluminum and the fact that the MMR is 3 vaccines in one? THAT has got to be dangerous or bad somehow, doesn’t it? Yes, yes, I think so!!”

            And again I repeat: “Do as I say, not as I do”. Or they claim that they vaxxed their kids before they were “enlightened”, but they don’t go in for that anymore. Know better, do better, that sort of tripe.

          • Who?

            What is he ‘even’ has his own vaccination schedule?

            How to measure the arrogance of a person who takes the most powerful tool in the hands of modern medicine, and tinkers it the better to flog it to the gullible people?

            And how to measure the gullibility of the people who buy it from him, and the people who use this mark of his arrogance as proof of his bona fides?

        • Mike Stevens

          “Look at all the side effects people report from antibiotics! We should never ever give anyone antibiotics to treat infections… We must wait until they are 100% side effect free!

          “…What? I am against antibiotics? Who, me?
          Absolutely not… I am just for “safer” antibiotics.”

          • Azuran

            And safer surgery. No surgery should ever be done until we have 100% safe anaesthesia and surgery procedures.

            And the same should be applied to every single medication out there.

          • Mike Stevens

            Stone Age medicine here we come!

          • Barzini

            It’s generally agreed now that we vastly over prescribe antibiotics

            Many doctors try to not prescribe antibiotics unless absolutely necessary, others prescribe them at the drop of a hat

            Many people try to never consume antibiotics unless it really is essential to do so

            Other people practically demand antibiotics from their doctor as soon as they have had the flu for more than a few days

            Even when taking them, many people try and take them for a minimal amount of time – advice often varies wildly depending on what doctor you have

            One doctor I know always prescribes a probiotic with antibiotics, another thinks it’s a waste of time

            There is also growing concern about what long term impact antibiotic usage has on gut health and a whole range of disorders, it’s possible that the side effects of antibiotics may actually be far higher than previously thought

            Just like with vaccines (eg look at the difference between Denmark and the US), there are different opinions as to what is the ideal path to follow

            Is the Danish government anti-vax because it recommends a less heavy vaccine schedule than the US? Are Danish scientists ‘loons’, should every country in the world adopt what the CDC mandates?

            Or, just like with antibiotics, is it possible that there is no fixed optimum route to take and that it is possible to take a number of different paths?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Mike Stevens

            QED.
            Way to go proving my point, Barz.

          • Barzini

            Good to see we’re on the same page

          • Charybdis

            If people are demanding antibiotics for the flu, then they are terribly misinformed and doctors who prescribe antibiotics for the flu are part of the problem.

            The flu (influenza) is a viral illness. Antibiotics don’t work on viral illnesses. What they need, if it is caught early enough, is TamiFlu, an antiviral drug.

        • Who?

          It’s the same strategy as grocery companies in Australia are using to avoid the government officially working out what anyone who regularly grocery shops knows but can’t prove-they are running a cartel.

          They say they want an enquiry, but it is desperately important to Talk About It, to get it right. So for years, we Talk About It, which avoids anyone, in a formal way, actually looking into what is going on.

          The anti-vaxxers want no vaccines until they are completely safe, despite nothing being completely safe and vaccines being way safer than most everyday activities.

          And then anti vaxxers call for a double blind study, but would not let their precious children be in it, unless they are sure the child won’t get the vax. And of course, if it’s known, then it isn’t blind. Yet again, freeloading.

          • Barzini

            Who are these anti-vaxers you are talking about?

            Wakefield (surely the most notorious anti-vaxer) vaccinates his own children, Dr. Sears (another notorious anti-vaxer from the US) not only vaccinates his own children, he also vaccinates the children of other people and even has his own vaccine schedule……

            How can you possible claim that these people are telling people to stop vaccinating?

            And yet here you are claiming they don’t vaccinate……what else do you believe in that has no basis in reality ?

          • Charybdis

            Dr. Sears MADE UP his own “vaccination schedule” that he himself admitted that there was no “safety basis” or other basis for his “delayed schedule”.

            Other than he is pandering to and selling vaccine exemptions to the anti-vax crowd and it gets him business.

          • Barzini

            Agreed, but he is not telling people to stop vaccinating is he?

            He is a deluded quack and evil, but he is campaigning for ‘safer’ vaccination not an end to vaccination

          • corblimeybot

            Watch what happens if he really loses his ability to practice medicine. He’ll drop all pretenses pretty fast so he can keep his followers. Here are some doctors on Twitter discussing Dr Sears appearing to already make preparations to do just that: https://twitter.com/IDDocHymes/status/774077834956386304

            I know people who use his nonsense “delayed” schedule on their kids. And they do it because they believe the complete bullshit that people like you believe about vaccines. Bullshit that Dr. Sears makes his LIVING off selling to gullible people.

            When these kids I just mentioned end up in the doctor’s office or ER for some unknown condition, they have to get worked up a lot more intensively for the diseases they weren’t vaccinated for yet. That produces real suffering for those children. But the suffering of children is so unimportant to anti-vaxxers.

          • corblimeybot
          • corblimeybot
          • Who?

            So people who broadcast fictions, sell products, including their time, around how to avoid vaccine injury, aren’t encouraging others to not vaccinate? Oh please.

            I didn’t mention either Wakefield or Sears, though you are right they are outrageous anti-vaxxers and Wakefield is responsible, due to his lies about MMR, for every measles death in the UK since the early nineties. And the Sears clan is largely responsible for VPD deaths in their neck of the woods, too. I bet they are all very proud of themselves.

            There are plenty of anti vaxxers who wander in here calling for double blind studies, but who say they would not allow their own child to participate, in case they were vaxxed.

            Don’t bother to try gaslighting me, you’re an amateur. You’d have to be way more subtle and sophisticated to be anywhere near managing it.

          • Barzini

            You are claiming that men who vaccinate their own children want people to stop vaccinating…….go and sit down and have a think

            There really are anti-vaxxers out there who believe all vaccines should be banned – you can detect them because they say things like ‘I believe all vaccines should be banned’ – they represent an incredibly small percentage of the anti-vaxx movement and they don’t include guys like Wakefield and Sears, or just about anyone else who has a public profile

          • Who?

            This is an interesting take on it-you’re using an appeal to authority ie ‘these guys are doctors, take them seriously’ alongside distancing your authority figures from the most extreme members of the anti-vax movement.

            Wakefield and the Sears are responsible for probably hundreds of deaths, directly as a result of what they peddle.

            They might be a tiny proportion, but they have a huge profile and they carry weight. Just like your pet nephrologist turned homeopath-Humphries, is it? And Ben Carson.

            The anti-vax movement must truly be desperate. A few doctors on side, and they are milking their authority-while it is still there-for all it’s worth.

          • swbarnes2

            Dr. Sears makes money hyping up totally made-up fears about vaccines, that’s why he is “anti-vax”. He sells books that cater to the vanity of the rich who think that any health measure that is good enough for poor people is unsuitable for their precious little snowflake. Selfish people like you, who think that their child purity is worth a thousand immuno-compromised children’s lives.

          • Ivan Forsch

            Sidebar:

            LA Times reports today that Bob Sears may lose his license over improper medical exemption he wrote for a preschooler.

            http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oc-vaccine-doctor-20160908-snap-story.html

    • Sonja Henie

      “Prove that vaccines are more harmful than beneficial.”

      Prior to measles vaccine for example, there were 450-500 deaths annually in the US from measles. The measles epidemic of 1989-91 saw a death rate of about 3/1000 cases, higher than expected. There have been NO documented deaths due to measles vaccine, and only a few documented cases of serious “vaccine injury”.

      I could do this with every vaccine, but you’d just put up some more discredited movies, books and links from anti-vax cranks. You have no interest in learning the facts. None whatsoever.

      “Safer vaccination” is a code for anit-vax. Until such time as vaccines are deemed safe by these people, most of whom have NO science background, they’ll continue not to vaccinate. Humphries, RFK (the brains behind “Trace Amounts”) and Shaw are cranks.

      • Azuran

        And that’s only death, it’s not even factoring in all the lifelong sequels of VPD.

    • Susan Humphries and Christopher Shaw are well-known antivaxx cranks. Please google their names and research their reputations.

      • Chris Preston

        It is almost as if someone is only looking for confirmation of their existing views.

      • 655321

        Humphries was a board certified nephrologist….what are your credentials again?

        • Nick Sanders

          Well, knowing that nephrology has nothing to do with immunology is a pretty good credential. Not believing in homeopathy, i.e. magic, is another.

          http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/783-suzanne-humphries.html

          • You saved me thew trouble of posting that link (again!). I’ll post some more for this troll to read, or more likely, for a concerned lurker to check out.

          • 655321

            So you’re referring opinion based blogs as justification of your ad hominem attacks on someone who is without question more intelligent, more experienced, and more qualified to make statements on this subject than yourself….not surprising.

          • How is a nephrologist-turned-quack homeopath more qualified than I am to discuss vaccines?

          • 655321

            My garbage man is more qualified to discuss vaccines than you. He’s aware there have been no real safety tests.

          • Nick Sanders
          • 655321

            There are no studies between vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations. No safety studies using true placebos. You can’t post as many links as you want. Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true.

          • Sonja Henie
          • 655321

            Quit posting BS.

          • Barzini

            Are you seriously posting google search page results as some kind of evidence?

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes. You would too if you’d look at it!

          • Barzini

            Is that seriously the evidence you are basing vaccine safety off for vaccinated and non vaccinated populations?

            I’m new to this particularly sub debate, I had actually presumed that there just must have been many large scale studies performed.

            Is this seriously it? a google search page result? OMG, it’s actually worse than I thought…

          • Barzini

            I can’t believe you think posting a google search page result is evidence of something

            The guy above is asking for something very basic – if you don’t know whether such studies exist just admit it

          • Sonja Henie

            If you’d open the *A(&(F& link, you’d see that it references many studies. Not to mention this information has been posted many times over. It is a LIE that there are no such studies. Give this one up, Barz. You’re going to make a fool of yourself, or rather, more of a fool than you already have.

          • Barzini

            I’m not arguing there are no such studies

            I’m asking for a link to one

            The guy above has asked you many times to provide a link and you haven’t done so, the best you’ve done is to provide a google search page result – if I had done that from an anti-vax perspective you would have quite rightly derided me

            Provide a link or admit you don’t have one – I’m actually shocked that you don’t seem to have this information at your finger tips – I never thought of asking about it, I presumed it must have existed in abundance

          • Maud Pie

            She posted a link to a list of links. If it’s too much effort for you to click on one and then the other how were you able to type the comments demanding a direct link?

            I feel sorry for librarians who have to deal with you. Barzini: I want information on measles. Librarian: Books on infectious diseases are right here on this shelf. Barzini: Don’t show me books, I want the information!

          • Who?

            Barzini’s been humble bragging for days about his lack of ability in reading the science-it’s all about his feelings, remember???

            He just has a feeling vax is bad, so it must be.

            Therefore, when someone posts a link (or indeed, many links) showing reasons why vax is not bad, in fact why vax is good, well that doesn’t address his concerns. It just reinforces his persecution complex about what he can’t read and understand proving him wrong, wrong, wrong.

            He is sooooo extremely tedious.

          • Barzini

            Sure, whatever, you don’t believe what you just wrote, no one reading it believes it

            But if it makes you feel good, keep doing do it

            The day people on an evidence based medicine site start accepting google search page results as proof that certain studies exist is a sad day

          • Sonja Henie
          • Barzini

            There’s two possibilities:

            1) You actually think those links are of the type of studies requested by ‘655321’ above

            2) You are just pasting random links to random studies to create noise

            I’m done with this, if these are the studies you are relying on, you are seriously deranged

            655321 asked you for something incredibly simple, you have replied with utter BS

          • Sonja Henie

            Good. Please sign out and GTH out of here. You’re nothing but a troll.
            655321 never likes any studies anyone pro-vax links too. He always finds some design flaw. He’s got his head in concrete and so do you.

          • Nick Sanders

            I find it interesting that when I ask you to back up one of your claims, I’m told to go find it myself, but when you want more info on someone else’s claim, you insist on being spoon fed.

          • Barzini

            If you are claiming that the health outcomes for vaccinated and non vaccinated children has been studied, then you should have some studies at hand that have convinced you of that fact

            If not, the default position is to assume the studies haven’t been made

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve posted three.

          • Google Scholar Page.

          • Barzini

            Plenty of google scholar page links to papers claiming mercury and aluminium cause autism

          • So? Compounds aren’t elements.

          • Sigh.

            “Yes, and you can find them at this specific google scholar page.”

          • Barzini

            Did you look through the links? None of them were even close to providing what was being asked for

          • Yup.

          • Maud Pie

            She’s not posting the search page results as evidence of the content of the studies, but as evidence of the items that can be found when conducting a Google search.

            Illustration: You go to a bookstore and tell the employee you want to learn about evolution. She leads you to the science section. Would you say to the employee (A) I can’t believe you trying to tell me I can learn about evolution by looking at the spines of the books on the shelf; or (B) Thank you. I will now look at the books and their table of contents and bibliographies and select the books that will start me on my endeavor to learn about evolution.

            Pay attention to context and nuances.

          • Barzini

            That’s ridiculous – you can type anything into google and get thousands of hits

            Most of the results generated by her search are completely worthless, in fact they all probably are

            Imagine you went on an anti vax site and demanded evidence that vaccines can cause autism and all someone did was tell you to type in ‘vaccines cause autism’ on google

            You would quire rightly deride that person

          • Maud Pie

            If you can’t work out all the ways in which your response is disingenuous, I can’t help you. I’m not a remedial reasoning teacher.

            The core problem, of course, is that you are not approaching this in a spirit of good faith and intellectual honesty. You tenaciously cling to your pose that you’re not anti-vaccine, you’re just a concerned parent who is so protective that the evidence-base risk-benefit analysis isn’t good enough for you, that you are so smart and so concerned that you’ve conducted your own, much better r-b analysis. And you purport to be completely open-minded to criticism of your approach.

            You’re not fooling anyone, except yourself and maybe some of the anti-vaxx cohort. You’ve been pointed to numerous resources, been offered numerous explanations as to why Sears, et al are not credible. You have not approached these responses with an open mind. All you’ve done is blown them off with the same threadbare anti-vaccine cliches, wrapped in a thin layer of smugness poorly disguised as artless naïveté.

            It’s like trying to argue with a whack-a-mole.

          • Barzini

            6553321 asked for a double blind, placebo controlled safety test for a childhood vaccine

            Do they exist or not?

            I admit to not knowing if they exist or not, I presumed they did

            What Sonja Henie provided to his simple request was utter garbage

          • Daleth

            Try googling these, for starters:

            “Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial of Inactivated Poliovirus Vaccine in Cuba” NEJM

            “Efficacy of 23-valent pneumococcal vaccine in preventing pneumonia and improving survival in nursing home residents: double blind, randomised and
            placebo controlled trial”

          • Barzini

            Those studies look interesting, but they don’t seem to anyway offer an insight into the health outcomes for children who have followed the CDC vaccination schedule and non-vaccinated children – which is what 665321 (or whatever his name is) was asking for

            If a double blind placebo study is impossible for ethical reasons (but giving untested vaccines is ethical?), there must surely still be a way to perform a study on unvaccinated and vaccinated children (not for one specific vaccine but for full CDC program vs. non vaccinated)

            I actually presumed such data was out there

          • Nick Sanders

            No double-blind placebo tests ≠ untested. Not all vaccines have gotten a doublinded placebo trial, but even the ones that didn’t have still ben tested. Usually through a positive control trial.

          • This.

            @Yoda79:disqus r

          • Sonja Henie

            As we knew, you wouldn’t like these studies. Why bother with you? I’ll repeat what Maud Pie said (with her forbearance, I hope) “The core problem, of course, is that you are not approaching this in a spirit of good faith and intellectual honesty.” That absolutely clinches it!

          • Barzini

            and you are?

          • Maud Pie

            Forbearance freely granted!

          • Sonja Henie

            You know, jagoff, you should look up the Helsinki protocols. You cannot withhold a proven intervention for the purpose of experimentation. So when the new Gardasil 9 was being developed, it had to be tested against the Gardasil 4. When Gardasil 4 was being developed, it was tested against saline because there was no HPV vaccine at the time.

            665321, that jagoff, has been posting on these forums, also on NPR vaccine forums (probably why they closed their forums down, LOL!) and has asked for this stuff repeatedly. He has also been shown the data, repeatedly, as have you. I’m sure you’ve read about the German kids study, where the unvaxed kids differed from the vaxxed only in that they had more vaccine preventable diseases. Then there’s the Philippine study, which showed that the vaxxed kids had higher scores on intelligence tests. And so forth. Am I going to look for these studies for you or him? Not on your life! You’re too arrogant, you aren’t acting in good faith, and you’re pretending to be naive.

          • Barzini

            The following is taken in part from Public Testimony of Dr. Heather Rice at the Vermont Department of Health hearing on Act 157, 10/19/2012:

            No true prospective, randomized and controlled study of health outcomes of vaccinated people versus unvaccinated has ever been conducted in the U.S. by CDC or any other agency in the 50 years or more of an accelerating schedule of vaccinations.

            However, a German study published in 2011 compared the health outcomes of 94 unvaccinated children versus 13,359 vaccinated children (Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 February; 108(7): 99–104.”Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents; Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS).” (pdf of article – reply#1 – reply#2 – reply#3 ). Because the number of unvaccinated children included in the analysis is so small, statistical evaluation is nearly impossible.

            Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 Feb;108(7):99-104. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2011.0099. Epub 2011 Feb 18.

          • Barzini

            Those studies would be completely and utterly destroyed by sites like science based medicine

            Unfortunately, such sites only turn their attention to the deficiencies in ‘certain’ studies

          • Sure. The one true study is a myth.

          • Nick Sanders

            On what grounds would they be destroyed?

          • Ron Roy

            Journal of Pediatrics and the NEJM now those are great sources of unbiased information, NOT! Two of many medical journals controlled by the drug industry.

          • Polio field trials, for that matter.

          • *Sigh*

            If vaccines are proven to work: Unethical, thanks to denying protection to the unvaccinated group.

            If vaccines cause catastrophic injuries …it’s unethical to expose the vaccinated group to disastrous vaccine injuries.

            But….

            Efficacy and safety of an oral live attenuated human
            rotavirus vaccine against rotavirus gastroenteritis
            during the fi rst 2 years of life in Latin American infants:
            a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled
            phase III study

            Methods: 15 183 healthy infants aged 6–13 weeks from ten Latin American countries randomly assigned in a 1 to 1
            ratio to receive two oral doses of RIX4414 or placebo at about 2 and 4 months of age in a double-blind, placebo-controlled
            phase III study were followed up until about 2 years of age. Primary endpoint was vaccine effi cacy from 2 weeks after
            dose two until 1 year of age. Treatment allocation was concealed from investigators and parents of participating
            infants. Effi cacy follow-up for gastroenteritis episodes was undertaken from 2 weeks after dose two until about 2 years
            of age. Analysis was according to protocol. This study is registered with ClinicalTrials.gov, number NCT00140673
            (eTrack444563–023).

            http://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/128395/Linhares_Alexandre_C.pdf?sequence=1

          • Barzini

            This is looking at the effectiveness of a single vaccine at doing what it was designed to do – that’s not what’s being asked for

            We’re not asking for proof that (for example) a chicken pox vaccine reduces incidence of chicken pox

            We’re asking for proof that a child who follows the CDC vaccine schedule (around 40 vaccines by the age of 6) doesn’t have worse health outcomes than a child who is completely unvaccinated other as long a time frame as is possible to test

            One of the key concerns regarding vaccination is that of cumulative damage from repeated exposure to ingredients like aluminium

          • Then you don’t need to worry, Barzini. Compounds aren’t elements.

          • Efficacy and safety of an oral live attenuated human
            rotavirus vaccine against rotavirus gastroenteritis
            during the fi rst 2 years of life in Latin American infants:
            a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled
            phase III study

            That is double-blind and randomised.

            It is unethical to test vaccines again which are proven, regardless of whether you are personally convinced or not. Even if you’re sure they’re dangerous, still unethical. There is a way to compare health -retrospective studies.

            However, there are confounders. Epidemology to the rescue!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8988160b0ef8678b1253af43add2ff6030d29d1fbd8f61601b844dffcb78290.png

          • Barzini

            Come on, those studies are not what is being asked for

            Let’s just admit that they don’t exist – I agree that doesn’t somehow prove we should stop vaccinating

          • It is a double-blind study of efficacy and safety of a particular vaccine.

            As for general health…

            You know the ethics for both together.

            You also know that the point is to get as close a match as possible.

            Also, parents know whether their children have been vaccinated or not so logistically impossible.

            On their own? No.

            Tog https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8988160b0ef8678b1253af43add2ff6030d29d1fbd8f61601b844dffcb78290.png er, they get us somewhere close.

          • Sonja Henie

            “I agree that doesn’t somehow prove we should stop vaccinating”

            Then what is the issue? What made you rant on about this FOR DAYS now? Is the point harassment of pro-vax people?

          • Barzini

            I just want you to admit that such studies don;t exist

          • Sonja Henie

            The H*ll! Why, if it doesn’t matter, did you make such an issue of it?

          • Barzini

            Of course it matters

            If it doesn’t matter to you, as a nurse, then that’s something I find incredibly scary

          • Sonja Henie

            When all else fails, attack, attack, attack.

          • Barzini

            We choose not to study the health outcomes of vaccinates and unvaccinated children

            I find that bizarre to say the least

          • Wren

            We do, but not with a randomised double-blind study because withholding the known benefits of vaccines is not ethical.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Amazed

            “Let’s just admit that they don’t exist – I agree that doesn’t somehow prove you should stop vaccinating.”

            Fixed that for you. After all, if WE stop vaccinating, leeches like yourself won’t have anyone to mooch from. And then it won’t be, “Aluminium, neurotoxins, bad, blah-blah!” but “Tetanus, diphteria, tuberculosis bad!”

          • Barzini

            If I had interest in mooching off of you I’d be sending my kids to a school with a high vaccination rate

            I deliberately do the opposite ( a private school with a very high level of non vaccinated kids)

          • Sonja Henie

            Nothing is what you ask for. We get it. You just hook a new victim each go-round. Pretty soon every pro-vax poster on Disqus will be disgusted with you. Till then, you’re having fun, right?

          • Barzini

            It’s a simple request

            A study that compares overall health outcomes for children who have never been vaccinated in their lives with children who have had all CDC recommended vaccines

            If it doesn’t exist then fair enough, but quit linking to studies that don’t even try to provide such an analysis

          • Sonja Henie

            G(o) F(ly) Y(our kite)

          • Barzini

            Yep, that’s the kind of response one usually gets one asking for vaccine safety studies – either that or links to completely random studies

          • Sonja Henie

            You hare not asking for vaccine safety studies. You’re asking for a comparison study of vaxxed vs unvaxxed kids, information that has been given to you many times over in many different ways.

          • Barzini

            The links you provided were completely ridiculous – as you well know

          • Sonja Henie

            That is a good synopsis!

          • JoeFarmer

            Bravo!

          • Nick Sanders

            Not Google. Google Scholar.

          • Sonja Henie

            Thank you, Nick!

          • Barzini

            plenty papers claiming a link between aluminium and mercury and autism on google scholar – no idea if they are credible or not but they’re there

          • Charybdis

            So you are saying that if testing on a subject or a paper about a subject exists at all, then it MUST be right, or MUST carry the same weight as repeatable, verifiable, evidence driven papers?? Are you familiar with “False Equivalency”?

            It’s like getting your news facts from trash tabloids like The National Enquirer. Just because they are published in an attractive manner, look “professional”, have attention-grabbing headlines like “New breast implants are filled with helium to better provide patients with the perky, gravity-defying stripper boobs all women want!” and are placed next to more reputable magazines at the checkout stand means that people will unconsciously (or consciously, for all I know) believe that the trash rags are on the same par as Newsweek, Time, or hell, even Cosmopolitan.

            Let’s say a talk show/news report does a segment on vaccines. They get an M.D. to interview about vaccinating in general and why it is a good idea, maybe a developer/researcher to talk about testing protocol, research methods, etc and maybe a CDC/NIH official to talk about how this vaccine will help decrease the incidence of Zika (let’s say) and will help untold numbers of women of childbearing age avoid the damage Zika does to a fetus during pregnancy. The news folks feel as if they must address the opposite view as well, or else they are not being fair and impartial. So they get Modern Alternative Mama, Sears, and Mercola to talk about the woo they peddle, how vaccines are BAD, how you can hide in the herd if you don’t vaccinate and that essential oils, herbal supplements and the right diet will keep you safe from Zika and it’s devastating side effects to fetuses (feti?).

            Because this garbage is being given equal air time and/or a voice to rebut proven scientific facts, and those espousing the misinformation/pseudoscience are treated as “experts”, those watching can get the idea that the two sides are more-or-less equal viewpoints and that their arguments carry the same weight as years and years of scientific research, testing and reporting.

            Just because crap science/pseudoscience is out there and been published does not mean it holds water. False Equivalency is a thing and you are being crippled by it.

          • Sonja Henie

            Thank you, Maud!

          • Maud Pie

            You are most welcome!

          • Obviously not.

            Google Scholar.

          • Nick Sanders

            Then stop lying, and I won’t have to keep repeating myself.

          • 655321

            Lol, lying about what? Oh wait, it was you who was caught lying twice…..nice try.

          • Randomised double-blind placebo-controlled study on adverse effects of rubella immunisation in seronegative women

            We used a randomised placebo-controlled, double-blind design in a community setting. 636 women were enrolled and, after 90 women dropped out, 546 healthy women aged 18–41 years, who were rubella seronegative on routine screening were immunised parenterally with either monovalent live attenuated (RA27/ 3 strain) rubella vaccine (n=270) or saline placebo (n=276) in the postpartum period. Outcome measures were the occurrence of acute and persistent or recurrent joint manifestations (arthralgia or arthritis) at 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12 months after immunisation. Occurrence of muscle pain (myalgia), and neurological symptoms (paraesthesia) was also assessed at the same times.

            http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(96)12031-6/abstract

          • You are clearly not qualified to judge who is and is not qualified to discuss anything related to actual science and medicine. Go back to your bubble where people don’t mushroom stamp you for every asinine post you write.

          • 655321

            Lol, wtf is a mushroom stamp? Oh, I had to look it up because I’m not an on-line loser who posts 24/7 using multiple usernames from his moms basement.

          • *yawn*
            just pathetic.
            oh, and gfy.

          • 655321

            You have sexual issues. no joke.

          • Sonja Henie

            Is that supposed to be your highest level retort?

          • JoeFarmer

            @moderator: Can you show this türd the door, please?

          • oh, and gfy.

          • Sonja Henie
          • 655321

            You actually posted a working link? Problem is, it doesn’t contain the information being discussed. Thanks for playing.

          • Charybdis

            Then by all means, go have your discussion with him. The two of you can bask in each other’s aura of smartness you think you exude. You might have more luck impressing him with your version of “teh smartz.”

          • Who?

            He must love doing the run past your house. Perhaps he just agrees with you to get away faster?

          • Mike Stevens

            She’s got a YouTube video.
            In antivax land that’s equivalent to a PhD in vaccinology from Harvard.

          • Also, the blogs are all well-sourced, so, I’m happy to use the opinions of these qualified individuals to counter your misguided opinions on a well-known quack.

          • 655321

            Well sourced by other blogs? You’re a comedian.

          • Mike Stevens

            She’s an antivax loon.
            And before you ask, I’m a UK infectious diseases specialist, so I am more experienced and qualified in the relevant field than she is.

        • Mike Stevens

          Was.
          And since when has nephrology got anything to do with vaccines?
          Why would anyone but an idiot assume an epidemiologist could do your brain surgery, or a liver specialist treat leukaemia?

    • Trace Amounts is not merely “flawed” but it makes a really basic mistake – that of confusing compounds with elements. 9th graders are expected not to do that.

      • Sonja Henie

        Well, I seriously doubt that Kennedy took a science class past 9th grade.

      • Barzini

        Yeah, and the second half of the film, where he relapses into sickness again, and reckons it was exposure to mercury via a smashed light bulb – that was pretty bizarre