Vaccination is far more baby friendly than breastfeeding

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There’s a simple thing that every mother can do to keep her baby as healthy as possible. That’s why we should have a ten step hospital based program to support it.

No, it’s not breastfeeding; it’s vaccination, which saves a thousand times more lives in practice than breastfeeding ever could in theory.

No mother would refuse to vaccinate if she only understood the benefits and got the proper support.

Therefore, it is a thousand times more important to promote vaccination than to promote breastfeeding. No mother would refuse to do it if she only understood the benefits and got the proper support. That’s why I propose an immediate overhaul of the Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative to promote vaccination instead of breastfeeding.

The Ten Steps to Successful Vaccination are:

  1. Have a written vaccination policy that is routinely communicated to all health care staff.
  2. Train all health care staff in the skills necessary to implement this policy.
  3. Inform all pregnant women about the benefits of vaccination.
  4. Insist that every mother sign a vaccine contract that emphasizes that anything other than full vaccination on the CDC schedule threatens baby’s health.
  5. Mandate frequent visits by a vaccination consultant to provide constant support for vaccination.
  6. Help mothers initiate all recommended injections within one hour of birth.
  7. Show mothers how to obtain vaccinations even if they are separated from their infants.
  8. Accept no refusal to vaccinate unless medically indicated.
  9. Encourage vaccination on demand by the pediatrician.
  10. Foster the establishment of vaccination support groups and refer mothers to them on discharge from the hospital or birth center.

Wait, what? Some mothers think there are legitimate reasons not to vaccinate their babies? There are no legitimate reasons; it’s just a sign that they haven’t received enough vaccination support from hospital personnel, their peers and society at large.

Wait, what? Some mothers think that vaccination harms their infants? Who cares what they think? Public health officials have spoken on the issue of vaccination and mother’s observations of their own infants are irrelevant.

Wait, what? Some mothers think this is an issue of personal freedom? It most certainly is not. Vaccinating a child does not simply protect that child, but it provides a measurable benefit to society.

Lack of peer support for vaccination is a serious problem in and of itself. There are webpages and Facebook groups that encourage parents not to vaccinate or to diverge from the CDC schedule. Such webpages and Facebook groups must be ruthlessly suppressed along with public shaming of anyone who doesn’t support routine childhood vaccination.

Let’s face it: those who vaccinate according to the CDC schedule love their children more than those who do not. Only a lazy, selfish mother would listen to anti-vaccine quacks instead of the CDC.

I even have a motto for the NEW Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative:

Breastfed Is Good,
Fed Is Better, but
Vaccinated is BEST!

Why waste time promoting breastfeeding when we could be promoting vaccination and saving far more lives?

  • Demaris Forsythe

    There are no “poisons” in vaccines. Immune system disorders are NOT caused by vaccines, so stop lying about it. Your child can be infectious for measles 4 days before a rash shows up. You can choose not to vaccinate, but you do not have any right to put others at risk for diseases. You are not special. You are not entitled. And vaccinated children are not putting your little snowflake at risk, either, because not one outbreak of disease has been caused by shedding. You continue to ignore the mountains of evidence that show vaccines are safe.

  • ukay

    Where to start even with such a sequence of bs?
    You do realize though that your daughter profits massively from other people „poisoning“ their children? The doctor put their patients first by protecting them from you harming them.

    • Who?

      I doubt ME gives a moment’s thought to anyone but herself and the special little snowflake/s she has spawned. Why on earth was she taking the poor child to an actual doctor, rather than one of the woo-meisters generally preferred by the anti-vax crowd? Was she looking for the martyr points?

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    There’s no stupid like anti-vax stupid. Thanks for dropping in to demonstrate it.

    • Demaris Forsythe

      She has been sent masses of evidence and continues to lie about vaccines on public pages.

  • Chila

    Fed is the bare minimum of what a child deserves. Vaccinated is not best above nourishment, You’ve lost your marbles, I suggest you go find them before writing another blog, confusing other mothers whom have also lost their marbles and believe the things you write.

    • Azuran

      She is comparing the benefits of vaccination and breastfeeding, not feeding.
      Indeed, fed is best. And this can be done with either breastmilk or formula or even a mix of the two. The point is: The health benefits of vaccination (vs not vaccinating) are way superior than those of breastfeeding (vs formula feeding)
      Hence, if you really care about the well being of babies, people should spend more time promoting vaccination than breastfeeding. Doing so would save more lives and result in healthier babies.

      • sabelmouse

        ha ha ha!

        • Azuran

          Please, do find evidence that properly prepared formula has killed more babies than vaccine preventable disease.

          • Roadstergal

            Find evidence that properly prepared formula has killed even one single term infant.

          • sabelmouse

            ”properly” prepared formula [leaving out nestle in the 3rd world] killing less than infections diseases [which ones]. the bar is low!

  • Special K

    You know, truthfully, this article is a BENEFIT to anti-vaxxers. If you don’t know what to expect from your doctors, how you’ll get bullied, what rights you have and whether they are limited in any way…if you don’t know, here are ALL of the points of reference for your research. There is not one single sentence, not one line that isn’t such a stunning violation of indivual rights and liberty, and I understand exactly why. If all one learns about vaccines on the way to a medical degree is relative to the short white part of a pinky fingernail compared to the rest of the body of science, and if it’s absolutely nothing more than “vaccines have saved the world, vaccines = gooood,” then there are 2 definitions I can imagine to define this pitiful doc for such confident bloviating dangerous, demonstrably blatant lies and absurd disregard for freedom and liberty…it can’t even be the money…it’s willful ignorance or abject stupidity.

  • Special K

    Bahahahaha!!! It’s PARODY!!!!! Get it???

    • Julia JAG

      You’re right… and I fell for it. But rereading this twice, it’s obvious. No one can be THAT stupid!

  • Marcie Ellyn

    What a disgrace you are to your profession but more so to women and mothers. Do you recall your Hippocratic Oath to FIRST DO NO HARM? I suppose in your case, we can call it the Hypocritical Oath. You plainly disregard the observations of parents who have witnessed the changes and regression in their children first-hand, calling for public shaming when our concerns are voiced. Many babies do not even survive their multiple vaccine load, succumbing to the poisons injected into their bodies that medical “professionals” deem acceptable~ even though they are not allowed in building materials! Vaccines are the cause of many “SIDS” deaths that should be called VIDS- Vaccine-Induced Death Syndrome! Babies are found unresponsive with blood, fluid, or foam oozing from the mouth, nose, and even eyes or ears. In most cases, the infant had received vaccines within hours or days; however, they are VERY rarely listed in the death report.
    The actual vaccine inserts that are warnings FROM THE MANUFACTURERS that *SIDS* and ~Autism~ are known side effects, also warn:
    THIS VACCINE IS TO BE GIVEN ALONE!! These shots have never been tested TOGETHER for safety, yet the schedule packs them in with 8 at once in an infant that may only weigh 10 lbs at two months and even YOU have stated that any deviation from the schedule is a “threat to the baby.” They are also not tested for mutagenesis, carcinogenesis, nor fertility or birth defect outcomes! How you can go on boasting about their safety is questionable at best.
    The hundreds of thousands of parents who are alarmed about vaccines are not ignorant nor are we uneducated. On the contrary, we actually know more about vaccines than most doctors since doctors are bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies, even receiving training and text books authored by big pharma… I have been studying vaccine injuries for 15 years now, and natural medicine for 24 years. Lots of college, but one interesting course was Communicable Diseases. The media and people like you are terrorists. Simple word that uses inflated fear tactics to create unreasonable fright about a rather benign illnesses when there are THOUSANDS of actual terrifying pathogens out there. However, “Vaccine Preventable Diseases” top the charts of terror, instilling fear and misinformation about mild childhood illnesses. No one has died from Measles in over a decade nor “Polio” in over 35 years. (Untrue, as it is still around but renamed). But shots KILL and injure many more each year than the illnesses they do not even guarantee immunity for.
    Aside from belittling and demeaning parents with direct experience in losing a child to death or Autism, you minimize the effects of breastfeeding, the one very best way to protect your newborn with everything you’re immune to naturally. Mothers’ milk is created at each feeding according to these infant’s immediate needs, and if you truly believe pushing vaccines is more important than pushing nursing, then you really HAVE disgraced the Hippocratic Oath.
    Please, if you truly believe this hype, learn something new. Watch Vaxxed, in which a Senior CDC Scientist admits fully the cover-up of the Autism caused by MMR. It has always been true, they just buried it. Knowing this, and knowing what we have seen in our own children, you should either resign working with children or be honest with yourself that you have LOTS to learn. The TRUTH to learn! Otherwise, you’re a huge disappointment and generally RUDE person. It’s people like you that make people not trust doctors!
    My two older kids were vaxxed until o witnessed am MMR reaction that nearly killed my 4-yr-old. He also nearly died after birth, the Vitamin K shot and vaccine did him in, we were very lucky! They were both sick all their lives, colds, infections, skin problems, mental illness… My second two, unvaxxed, are both perfectly healthy. My 4-yr-old has never had a sick visit to a doctor, never even had antibiotics. She has the intellect and vocabulary of an adult! Your notions are outdated by roughly EIGHTEEN YEARS when Dr Wakefield was wrongly accused of errors and inaccuracies in his Autism/gut link. Here’s to science and revelations and anecdotes outweighing coincidences!!

    • N

      Did you read all the comments? All your points were addressed by all the regular commenters here.
      And my first son is fully vaxxed, breastfeed for years, a lot ill with colds ear infections antibiotics…. speeks like an adult since he is 2.5 years old. High IQ. Really lazy at school but still no problems following the teachers. Reads 1 Harry Potter in 2-3 days at age 8.
      My third baby is fully vaxxed, still breastfed at age 2 now, almost not ill compared to his older siblings, but speaks like a baby compared to the other two. But than again, he sings since he is 13 months old, and even strangers can recognise his melodies…

      • sabelmouse

        doesn’t everybody read 2000 comments before comment? did you?

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          She’s been popping in since the count was much lower, so I’d guess yes. I have.

        • Demaris Forsythe

          Nah. I ALWAYS skip yours.

    • Box of Salt

      Marcie Ellyn,
      You’ve been had.

      “My 4-yr-old has never had a sick visit to a doctor, never even had
      antibiotics. She has the intellect and vocabulary of an adult!”

      You need to meet more adults.

      • Who?

        Well if that post of Marcie Ellyn’s is an example of her understanding of adult communication, I’d have to agree with you.

        • kfunk937

          What is it with these folks and wall-o-text?

          • Who?

            I’d call them prolix and anti-vax…

          • momofone

            It’s the ALL CAPS that gets me. Lowercase obviously indicates a lack of conviction, but all caps? Who can argue with that?

      • FallsAngel

        Too funny!

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        I’m never impressed by “never had a sick visit/day off sick” Just because you stuck to your normal routine doesn’t mean you *should* have.

    • Nick Sanders

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342

      CONCLUSIONS:

      Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

    • Mike Stevens

      Gish gallop time I see, Marcie.

      Presumably when you say your 4 yr old has the intellect and vocabulary of an adult you must mean that you have the intellect and vocabulary of a 4yr old.

      It shows.

    • Marcie Ellyn,
      Did you know that paragraphs are now legal in all 50 states?
      Use them.

      • Demaris Forsythe

        She can’t. She is uneducated and happy to remain so.

    • Proponent

      Nice! I just might get my Christmas Pharma Shill bonus after all!

      C’mon.. daddy needs a new Lambourghini Veneno..

      http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/685/a9c.png

      • Mike Stevens

        Aspirations to be Batman?
        Neat.
        My shill checks only cover me up to a Beamer 5 series.

        • Proponent

          But.. but.. it’s gorgeous!

          And take a look at those specs!

        • EEJIT

          Gee I had to settle for a Peugeot 407 never mind I may get a raise.

          • shay simmons

            Sigh. I’d settle for a new bike.

    • Proponent

      Marcie Ellyn: “These shots have never been tested TOGETHER for safety, yet the schedule packs them in with 8 at once in an infant that may only weigh 10 lbs at
      two months and even YOU have stated that any deviation from the schedule is a “threat to the baby.” They are also not tested for mutagenesis, carcinogenesis, nor fertility or birth defect outcomes! How you can go on boasting about their safety is questionable at best.”

      Have a read for yourself..

      FDA | “Vaccine Product Approval Process”

      And more to the point..

      Vaccinate Your Baby | “Too Many Vaccines?”

      “Finally, all vaccines are subjected to concomitant studies before they are approved for use, meaning that all new vaccines must be tested in conjunction with existing ones to ensure there are no negative interactions. Regulatory agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are careful to look for any side effects associated with concomitant use before approving a new vaccine.”

      “A handy list of papers, proving how comprehensively vaccines are tested before they can be licensed” can be found at:

      Just the Vax | “Vaccine Trials: Methods and Best Practices”

      … …

      Oh and since you are here.. was just going to have an apple for a snack, as it’s looking like it’s going to be a late dinner.

      Could you provide the studies/research showing apples not to be ‘mutagenesis, carcinogenesis, nor contributing to fertility or birth defect outcomes’?

      Thanks.

    • Sue

      It’s always good when the anti-vaxers drop in, because it illustrates their way of thinking for readers who have never witnessed it before.

      All the usual tropes are here:
      Poisons injected into little bodies, autism, cover-ups, BIG PHARMA, Vaxxed, TRUTH, Vitamin K, Wakefield “wrongly accused” bla bla la, with a good measure of UPPER CASE! And all in ONE PARAGRAPH!

      Educate yourselves!
      Do your research!

      From people who are, at best, self-educated, and have never done any real research.

      Or, straight from the AntiVaxxers’ Handbook, paragraphs 3, 4, 5a, 11, 17, 24a and b, 26 and 31.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Demaris Forsythe

      You’re so full of shit. Your kids aren’t vaccine-injured, you idiot.

    • Demaris Forsythe

      You have cited zero evidence to back up your hysterical claims. Your child didn’t have a vaccine injury at all. You have been completely unable to show evidence that you ever petitioned NVICP. You can’t even provide a diagnosis you received from an M.D. that a vaccine ever harmed any of your children. The vitamin K shot didn’t “do him in” or even close to it. You’re just making up a story so you can get hair-pats and sympathy.

      • Nick Sanders

        Look it’s one thing to tussle with the person making new comments full of lies but leave the older posts alone. Grave digging is uncool; plus I really would rather not have these people come flooding back in here and clogging up the comment feed with more nonsense.

        • Demaris Forsythe

          Are you an admin?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            The only admin is Dr. T. One could also argue that it’s her job to tell off Nick if she feels it necessary. Generally, though, we don’t resurrect long dead posts

          • Demaris Forsythe

            I don’t get it. Who’s “we?”

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            The regulars

          • Demaris Forsythe

            And that makes you special because? I’ll respond to anyone I choose whenever I wish. Unless you are an admin, your input is irrelevant.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Maybe I’m a jerk; Ukay certainly thinks so. God knows I hate myself, so you’re in good company. Nick has been kind to me, so I tend to stick up for him.
            Soo, what makes you special in getting to stalk some ludicrous antivaxxer to random places on the internet?

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Who says I’m special?

          • ukay

            The in- group trying to regulate behavior by invoking internet seniority.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Oh, so they’re the cool kids, then?

          • Nick Sanders

            No; just a regular offering friendly advice.

          • ukay

            It is pretty uncool to tell somebody where to comment, regular or not. Just ignore it if you don’t like it. Wonder what happens if I don’t take the friendly advice…someone comes to my house to have a friendly discussion of what WE don’t do?

            P.S. Marcie Ellyn came back earlier and commented anew.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            This twit has been posting nonstop on FB with her bullshit. I’m in FB jail at the moment, so if this is the only place I can hand her her ass, so be it.

          • Who?

            ‘…I will come here and make a goose of myself while imagining I’m handing Dr T her ass…’

            Fixed it for you .

          • Demaris Forsythe

            You can’t read, dear. I’m handing that idiot antivaxxer her ass.

          • Who?

            Aagh my bad. Reading on the phone, not reading the entire thread, sorry!

            It’s usually me teasing the anti-vaxxers too.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            No worries. I’m a big fan of Dr. T.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          ME started it by resurrecting this thread herself, two days ago, with this comment:

          http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/10/vaccination-is-far-more-baby-friendly-than-breastfeeding.html#comment-3765071784

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            okay. My mistake

          • Nick Sanders

            At the time I made this comment, I was aware that an antivaxxer had made new replies on this post, although I did not realize it was the same one who had posted a year ago. That’s why I phrased my statement the way that I did.

  • Tori

    This lady gets bonuses for vaccinating and providing false articles

    • FallsAngel

      Who? Dr. Tueter? She is not working in medicine any more! You’re barking up the wrong tree.

      • moto_librarian

        She also wasn’t a pediatrician, so I’m wondering how many kickbacks she would have gotten for vaccines. SMH.

  • Tori

    This is a bunch of horse shit ! Fuck vaccines and their thernisol mercury and detergents and chemicals ! They will NEVER PUT ANY OF THAT CANCER CAUSING PANCREAS EATING BRAIN MALFUNCTIONING AUTISUM CAUSING BULLSHIT IN MY KUDS NOT NO WAY NO HOW

    • Box of Salt

      What’s a “KUD”?

      • N

        And what about a pancreas eating brain? And the malfunctioning autisum that causes bullshit???
        Those are the real vaccine injuries.

    • momofone

      What’s “thernisol”?

    • Roadstergal

      Your pancreas definitely ate your brain.

      • N

        Oh, is the pancreas eating brain? Or is it a brain that eats pancreas? Perhaps my english is not good enough to understand Tori correctly. But her english seems also a bit vaccine damaged, one could think.

    • SCENE: Some bar/coffee shop in Amsterdam:
      “Waiter! I’ll have whatever she’s having.”

  • Terri Willcocks

    “Let’s face it: those who vaccinate according to the CDC schedule love their children more than those who do not. Only a lazy, selfish mother would listen to anti-vaccine quacks instead of the CDC.” When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser – Socrates

    • Heidi

      Whoooosh That’s the sound of satire going right over your head.

    • Silver Silvie

      Slander? “Only a lazy, selfish mother would listen to anti-vaccine quacks instead of the CDC, they dont love their children as much as mothers who do vaccinate..” That, right there is slander..

    • Mike Stevens

      It’s only slander if it’s untrue.

  • Terri Willcocks

    Where are studies showing that vaccines are either safe OR effective? They don’t exist because they’ve never been done. Now let me present you with a list of studies showing that vaccines do major irreversible damage: http://yournewswire.com/30-solid-scientific-studies-that-prove-vaccines-cause-autism/

    • Heidi

      Dan Bland already posted that pile of drivel. Late to the game, I’m afraid.

    • Azuran

      Sorry, somebody already posted that stupid link and we already laughed at it.

  • Anonymous

    As far as studies regarding the connection between autism and vaccines. If you think the studies weren’t bought to protect the manufacturers your nuts. If they aloud even one connection between the two it would be lights out for the vax company’s. Sooo.. dollars are paid results come back as directed. These are billion dollar institutions that have their interests in mind, not yours or your child’s. Look, vaccines started out ” not bad” , as time went on they became evil. Money has distroyed it. I say if you want to inject your children with poison go for it, trust your doctor. If you don’t, dont. The arguement doesn’t hold weight.

    • Azuran

      And why, with all the advancement we have made in science, would we have made vaccines worst and less safe?
      What is the logic behind that. Even with pharmaceutical companies wanting to make money, what would they gain by making vaccines more and more dangerous on purpose and then waste money to cover up? They don’t need to make vaccines dangerous, vaccines have proven their benefits.
      Since there is no ‘cure’ or effective treatment for autism, what would the pharmaceutical companies gain by changing vaccines to make them cause autism?

      • Mike Stevens

        Stop it, Azuran.
        You know the antivaxers don’t “do” logic.

        • Terri Willcocks

          You clearly demonstrate that you are basing your opinion on what you’ve heard and have not done a shred of investigation and research for yourself. That’s logic?

          • Mike Stevens

            Terri, if you read some of my comments you might appreciate I have indeed done investigation and research on infections and vaccines (some of it has even been published in the medical literature..!)

            Can you explain the antivax “logic” that Azuran discusses and explains in the comment above for me then, seeing how you appear to find some?

          • Who?

            I wonder Mike if part of the problem here is the use of language. When Terri says ‘research’, she means talking to her twenty best online friends in their closed facebook page, while reading whatever anti-vax du jour items she can get her hands on.

            When you say ‘research’ you mean study, as part of your life’s work, with the rigours of professional practice and study to both guide and limit you.

            Totally different things.

          • David W

            Terri, Mike has actually done research. Not what anti vaxxers “think” is research. The logic error is yours.

          • momofone

            “That’s logic?”

            No, that’s irony.

      • Marcie Ellyn

        Sick people are lifelong customers!! Why would they NOT want people sick? Follow the money, it’s a simple flowchart.

        • Azuran

          Oh yea, and how does that work with my public healthcare?
          The government pays for the vaccine, then they pay for any vaccine reaction (and any health problems that may require any kind of care, whether or not it’s vaccine related) Then, if you get chronically sick, they pay you welfare if you can’t work, medical treatment, medications etc.
          And the government gets it’s money from taxes. Meaning that the more sick or damaged people there are. The less money they make and the more money they have to spend. Making your own population sick does not have any benefits.
          And even in the USA, you think that private medical insurances companies would let this happen? They fight ALL the time to refuse to pay treatment and tests. And they’d just let the vaccine companies do whatever they wanted and make them lose money treating all those sick people?

        • Heidi

          So did big pharma send you this way? Maybe they are soooo sneaky they’ve got a bunch of anti-vax shills to encourage people not to vaccinate! I guess it’s like the Nigerian scammers where the supposedly native English speaker strangely uses horrible grammar and awkward wording and/or implausible situations that any reasonably skeptical person could spot it was a scam a mile away. However, that’s intentional in order to only attract the super-gullible. No point on reeling someone in who would realize soon enough it was a scam. So is it big pharma’s goal to increase the amount of vaccine preventable illnesses to make all the money? One in 20 children will get pneumonia if they get measles. Those antibiotics, fluids, and probably even meal replacement shakes big pharma makes won’t run cheap! Big money there! I guess the iron lung makers are needing some money, too. Baby and children casket makers aren’t doing so well these days either now that most children live through childhood. You know, I’m just following the money.

    • Nick Sanders
  • Medicalmommie87

    What a load of bs. So because I refuse to watch my other three children suffer while their intestines stop working, they spike high fevers, seize repeatedly, randomly stop breathing, stop talking, go back in diapers, slam there heads into the wall over and over again, scream non-stop for hours, have numerous stomach issues, among a million other symptoms from vaccines like their two older brothers did makes me a bad Mother who does not love them? You are a disgrace to your profession. Spreading false information and pushing a product at all costs. Trying reading a few unbiased studies, or better yet actually talk to your damn patients. They are real people not just a number.

    • Azuran

      If your kids really had such a reaction from vaccine, I expect they saw a doctor that confirmed it was a vaccine reaction. In such a case, getting a medical exemption should be easy.
      There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who has a legitimate medical exemption­. If anything, when school and daycare are demanding that kids get vaccinated, they are doing so to protect YOUR children who cannot be vaccinated.
      So since your kids apparently can’t be vaccinated, you should be happy that those who can are expected to.

      • Terri Willcocks

        The problem is, the vaccine companies and the doctor cannot, by law, be held accountable for the vaccine damage. And you cannot know if YOUR child will be adversely affected until AFTER the shots are given. There are thousands of children suffering irreversible damage every year and those parents are up the creek without a paddle, trying to help their children on their own.

        • Azuran

          Then I guess you never use any medication and will never have any kind of medical procedures.
          Because guess what, all of those have risks, and those risks are known. And when possible complications happens, you cannot held the vaccine company or the doctor ‘accountable’. Because those were the risks of the procedure.
          Now you can sue in case of a medical mistake, or if the vaccine company or doctors tries to hide possible risks and complications. But that’s not the case with vaccines, you just have to look at the vaccine insert, you people like it so much.

      • Marcie Ellyn

        It is still not easy to get medical exemptions, and not all doctors will relate symptoms to vaccines even when it’s plain as day. Just because there has been a previous injury does not ensure exemption, and sometimes the sibling is the injured one. With genetics, I’m not willing to take the risk of another near death experience or worse!

        • Azuran

          Define near death. Because near death means emergency hospitalization. Which means easily obtainable medical exemption. Maybe you didn’t get one because it wasn’t near death and wasn’t caused by the vaccine.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            BINGO!! She won’t even reveal what diagnosis she got from an M.D. She’s just lying.

  • Anonymous

    it really boils down to money and control. Do you really think they care about your child’s welbieing? Of course not. It’s a buisiness, a huge one at that . The so called out breaks at Disney world last year of measles…. all vaccinated children. Think what they tell you too and you’ll never have to worry about anything omg . Christ!!! They hand out flu vaccines at every drug store in America for free! Now why would they do that? Cirtinly not because they want you safe and sound, where’s the money in that?! No no, it’s because the manufacturers of the vaccines are heavily invested in the, drum roll please …. you guessed it, your new government run health care system. They also know if you get that free flu shot there’s a fantastic chance you will get sick from it in the near future, sick enough to have to go to the doctor and spend boat loads of money. Much more so than the cost of the free shot and administration. I mean it’s freaking beautiful!! Money folks! Tons of money in fear!

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Viagra and cholestral meds, yes, vaccines, no. And how much do they make when a person is sick enough to get hospitalized?

    • maidmarian555

      Please explain how this theory works in countries with universal healthcare like the UK and Canada. If the NHS paid for a vaccine which was going to end up costing far more in terms of vaccine-reaction, why on earth would they do that? Why would they spend money that was going to cost them a fortune in the future? Your conspiracy theory makes zero sense.

    • Azuran

      Funny, the Disneyland measles outbreak caused a small epidemics in my region as well. And the cases were all in unvaccinated children. You might want to check out the source of your claim that it only affected vaccinated people.
      And really, your entire post is nothing but paranoid conspiracy theory that makes 0 sense.

      • Terri Willcocks

        Unfortunately, there are too many “sources” posting their own stats on this outbreak. But the MOST important point is that nobody died because guess what, it’s not a life threatening illness! More kids are damaged by the vaccine than helped by it.

        • Azuran

          Measles kills about 1/1000 cases. Nobody died in that outbreak because there weren’t enough cases. But without vaccines, probably 90% of all kids would get measles in their lives. How many kids is 1/1000 of all kids?

          • FallsAngel

            Actually, nobody died in the Disney outbreak because nobody died, thank God! There was an outbreak in Washington state that same year and one person did die, even though there were only 5 cases. The one death per thousand is an overall average. https://www.verywell.com/measles-outbreaks-2633845

        • Mike Stevens

          “Unfortunately, there are too many “sources” posting their own stats on this outbreak.”

          Exactly…and you antivaxers are looking at invalid sources (or just making stuff up – I can’t tell which).
          The official stats are quite clear, and are available here:
          https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm

        • FallsAngel

          Actually, nobody died in the Disney outbreak because nobody died, thank God! There was an outbreak in Washington state that same year and one person did die, even though there were only 5 cases. The one death per thousand is an overall average. https://www.verywell.com/measl

        • MaineJen

          …did you just say that measles isn’t a life threatening illness?

          “Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
          In 2015, there were 134 200 measles deaths globally – about 367 deaths every day or 15 deaths every hour.
          Measles vaccination resulted in a 79% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2015 worldwide.
          In 2015, about 85% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
          During 2000-2015, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 20.3 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.”

          http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

          • Who?

            I think you’ll find Terri does not concern herself with people unfortunate enough to not be born wealthy and American. When wealthy American people get measles, they probably are pretty much okay, what with all that high quality healthcare for a price.

            Poorer people, or people from places where high quality healthcare is not available, not so much. But then they don’t live on unicorn sparkles, so aren’t they really, in Terri’s eyes, just getting what they deserve?

            Terri has a nasty case of what we in Australia refer to as ‘I’m alright Jack’. If you’re a kind person, you could think she assumes everyone else is too. If you’re a realist, you know she just doesn’t care.

    • Mike Stevens

      “The so called out breaks at Disney world last year of measles…. all vaccinated children.”

      This lie is easily disproved. Please see below. Overall, out of the 63 cases in the outbreak for whom the vaccination status was known, 49 were completely unvaccinated (78%) and 5 were incompletely vaccinated (8%).
      Only 7 cases (11%) had been fully vaccinated.
      But I guess that in the era of Drumpf, a lie is not only acceptable, but routine (dare I say mandatory?) when trying to sway peoples’ opinions.

      https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm

      Among the 110 California patients, 49 (45%) were unvaccinated; five (5%)
      had 1 dose of measles-containing vaccine, seven (6%) had 2 doses, one
      (1%) had 3 doses, 47 (43%) had unknown or undocumented vaccination
      status, and one (1%) had immunoglobulin G seropositivity documented,
      which indicates prior vaccination or measles infection at an
      undetermined time. Twelve of the unvaccinated patients were infants too
      young to be vaccinated. Among the 37 remaining vaccine-eligible
      patients, 28 (67%) were intentionally unvaccinated because of personal
      beliefs, and one was on an alternative plan for vaccination. Among the
      28 intentionally unvaccinated patients, 18 were children (aged <18
      years), and 10 were adults. Patients range in age from 6 weeks to 70
      years; the median age is 22 years. Among the 84 patients with known
      hospitalization status, 17 (20%) were hospitalized.

    • Heidi

      Flu vaccines are not available for free at the drugstores in the US. You are certainly wrong about that. If you have insurance, thanks to Affordable Care Act, it does have to cover the flu vaccination, but otherwise you do have to pay out of pocket. But you know, most of us do pay for our health insurance so I wouldn’t call it free. https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/healthcare-clinic/price-menu.jsp You may be able to take advantage of a vaccination drive but they are not free anywhere and everywhere!

  • Anonymous

    I feel every American citizen has the right to see what Mr. bill Gates and spouse has to say about vaccinations and population control. Ted confrances and live interviews

    • momofone

      And that’s because Bill Gates is such an expert on … operating systems?

    • moto_librarian

      Yeah, how wrong of him to point out that people in the developing world will have fewer children once they can feel confident that all of their children will live to adulthood. You are such an idiot.

  • innate1

    “No, it’s not breastfeeding; it’s vaccination, which saves a thousand times more lives in practice than breastfeeding ever could in theory.”
    The operative words: “in theory”, should actually read “in theology”

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      True. Most religions are very paternalistic and many of the more religious want women to stay at home and tend the babies.

  • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

    Apparently, @disqus_s58KH3CnWX:disqus took his ball and went home. Too bad…

    Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism

    [snip]

    Conclusions and Relevance

    In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.

    Wait! There’s more:

    One More Study Shows Vaccines Don’t Cause Autism

    And, as if that wasn’t enough:

    New Meta-analysis Confirms: No Association between Vaccines and Autism

    Analysis of 10 studies involving more than 1.2 million children reaffirms that vaccines don’t cause autism; MMR shot may actually decrease risk

    You’re welcome, Dan.

  • Dan Bland

    I’m growing a little tired of being attacked on this page so I doubt I’ll stay much longer. They keep asking for peer reviewed articles and when I give them what they want they immediately attack the article or the authors or yours truly. So why should I even bother anymore?
    Here’s 30 articles proving the vaccine/autism connection. Let’s see how they react to this?

    http://yournewswire.com/30-solid-scientific-studies-that-prove-vaccines-cause-autism/

    • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

      “So why should I even bother anymore?”

      Why did you bother in the first place?

      • Mister Atoz

        As a fan of devastating one-liners, I tip my virtual hat to you, sir.

        • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

          Thank you, my good friend @onlythe_lonely:disqus .

          Coming from you that is a compliment, indeed!

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Ohh, are you going away, then? Whatever shall we do for entertainment now? Eh, no worries, we’ll find something.

    • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

      “Here’s 30 articles proving the vaccine/autism connection.”

      The very first article cited, Autistic Disturbances of Affective Contact by Leo Kanner, Johns Hopkins University, 1943, has only one (1) incident of the word “vaccination” (or any derivative), and it is not used in a context of “proving the vaccine/autism connection.”

      If the first “article” is that easily disproven, then all 30 are suspect.

      • Azuran

        The second one is about implication of environmental toxicity. Now unless bees are now vaccinating us with their stings, I don’t think it has much to do with proving vaccines causes autism.

      • Who?

        I do hate pedantry-not that I’ll let that stop me indulging-but didn’t our Dan say there never used to be any autism back in the good old days? So however in the world a non-time travelling author from 1943 could have written anything on autism is, according to Dan’s own lights, more than a little troubling.

        Also, while I’m on a roll, I don’t know that there was too much vaccination in 1943 either.

        A person with a less kind world view than mine might even think Dan doesn’t read a single thing he copies and pastes.

        • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

          “A person with a less kind world view than mine might even think Dan doesn’t read a single thing he copies and pastes.”

          A most reasonable and – if I may add – logical conclusion, my friend. 🙂

    • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

      “So why should I even bother…”

      In relation to the anti-vaxxer’s “dedication,” @disqus_0oY51KTEMo:disqus once posted:

      “It’s not like anyone is going to read their ridiculous little cut&paste jobs.”.

      That leads directly to four questions no anti-vaxxer has ever been able to (honestly) answer:

      1. Can you prove that you’ve stopped anyone from vaccinating their child with what you’ve written here or what you’ve copied and pasted here?

      2. Can you prove that you’ve changed the opinion of anyone who has read what you’ve written here or what you’ve copied and pasted here, as it relates to vaccination?

      As to this question, I have never seen a single poster, on any issue, post “I’ve changed my mind on said issue based solely on what you’ve written here or what you’ve copied and pasted here.”

      Never.

      3. Can you prove that you’ve changed the position of a single law-maker as it relates to his/her position on vaccinations, based on you’ve written here or what you’ve copied and pasted here?

      Finally – and this relates to all three of the above questions

      4. Can you prove anyone is reading what what you’ve written here, or what you’ve copied and pasted here, other than the people who have Up voted your comment and/or are replying to your posts?

      In other words, I wonder who the anti-vaxxers believe is the audience for their “efforts.” I have read anti-vaxxers who have implied, explicitly or implicitly, that what they’re doing they are doing for all those numerous people lurking and reading their comments, and that they’re trying to counter what the realists (or, pro-vaxxers, if you will) are saying, again, for all the people lurking and reading the comments.

      Now, I happen to believe that the only people who read Internet message board comments (at least beyond the first several comments on a newly-posted thread) are people who are already decided on an issue, one way or the other, and are passionate about the issue again, one way or the other. I don’t believe that there are people who are genuinely undecided about an issue who seek the comments/opinions of anonymous Internet posters to help them make up their minds. Certainly not a lurking audience of any real measure. And that’s especially true when the inevitable flame wars erupt within the comment section.

      @disqus_0oY51KTEMo:disqus also posted,

      “Which just goes to show that it’s not about debate or convincing. Rather it’s a quasireligious demonstration of her loyalty to the cult”

      It would be intellectually refreshing if the anti-vaxxers would, just once, admit that all their effort is merely their demonstration of fealty to the cause.

      A Disqus poster once wrote, as to the reason he posts comments:

      “I used to hit the bag to work out stress. Now I just mock morons on Internet message boards. Easier, I can get back to important things more quickly, and I don’t need to break out into a sweat.”

      Hard to disagree with that assessment. Plus, for me, I get to read word gems mined and written by people like @disqus_0oY51KTEMo:disqus .

      But I am under no delusion that I am posting to untold hordes of lurking and undecided people, and am not looking to change anyone’s mind on an issue.

      • kfunk937

        You make some excellent points. Sometimes it seems a finger-in-the-dike issue on both sides of any given issue or perspective. I see it now even in attempting to add some balance to political discourse, at least in the instance of fake news. As might be expected, most is rejected itself as “fake news.” It’s especially frustrating when dealing with the so-called “alt-right” due to their explicit goal of flooding discourse with memetic warfare.

        That said, I’ve had a few (a very, very few) encounters that ended in rapprochement and a changed opinion to one more evidence-based. Woo hoo! Can I prove it? Absolutely not, because encounters are fleeting and who knows? Anyone on the interwebz could easily be a dog.

        • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

          @kfunk937:disqus, I always enjoy your comments and contributions to a discussion.

          You never disappoint, my friend!

          • kfunk937

            Likewise, and thank you. I was also pleased that you mentioned Gabby as we’ve been missing connections lately. Inspired me to go catch up with at least one side of the conversation on some articles I’d missed.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          That said, I’ve had a few (a very, very few) encounters that ended in
          rapprochement and a changed opinion to one more evidence-based.

          Yep, this happens, but it results from actual discussion. It doesn’t come from flooding it with cut-and-paste bits from other websites and youtube videos.

          • kfunk937

            True dat. In all cases, it began with establishing some area of shared reality, a soupçon of empathy, and maybe some Socratic teaching. And none were meme warriors.

        • Linden

          If it helps at all, I got led to quite a few skeptical websites due to an article I read in Private Eye (UK political satire/humour magazine) about Andrew Wakefield which uncritically reported his claims.
          I was interested, but didn’t know anything about the subject. For all I knew, there could be something in it (this was before AW’s conflicts of interest and sleaziness came to light, along with large scale research refuting his claims).
          I went and read up on responses from official sources, and people who appeared to know what they were talking about. Through them, I found Respectful Insolence, SBM, Pharyngula and our own Dr T.
          To be fair to Private Eye, the next year they published the full story in a special report, which wasn’t quite titled, “We Messed up, sorry”, but had that basic message.
          More than can be said of almost every other major UK paper.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’m growing a little tired of being attacked on this page so I doubt I’ll stay much longer.

      I hate the phrase “don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out” but then again, I don’t care, let it hit you for all I care, just so long as you leave.

      • Nick Sanders

        I don’t want his butt cooties on the door.

    • MaineJen

      Will he stick it this time? The crowd waits…

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      They keep asking for peer reviewed articles and when I give them what they want they immediately attack the article or the authors or yours truly.

      It’s known as reading and analyzing the data. Just posting a link to an article, peer reviewed or not, does not prove your point. It has to contain convincing data that support your hypothesis. And stand up to attack.

      • sdsures

        I think Dan mistakes “attack” for “reasoned and thorough review of articles he provides, and then debunking them with science”.

    • Mike Stevens

      Dan, most of the articles do not mention vaccines, or autism, or deal with unnamed toxins, “toxins” found in the air but not in vaccines, or “toxins” from elsewhere not found in vaccines such as methyl mercury, or deal with theoretical scenarios in animals…. The list goes on.

      Can you pick your “best” paper that as you say “proves the vaccine/autism connection”, and we’ll take things from there?

    • shay simmons
      • Who?

        But has he failed to launch? Only time will tell…

  • Dan Bland

    You people promoting giving babies formula need to be sure you use distilled water rather than from the tap.

    • maidmarian555

      Where have you got that from?? Recommendations regarding what type of water (as in tap vs bottled) to use vary quite wildly from country to country. Please do tell me oh great wise one why you think bottle-feeding mums shouldn’t ever use tap water.

      • Dan Bland

        There are many reasons. But the first two, in my opinion are the chlorine and fluoride found in tap water. Both are members of the halogen family of elements which are the most reactive of all the elements. Chlorine is added to the water to kill bacteria so what do you think it’s doing to the microbiome bacteria in that baby’s intestines? Plus C-section babies do not get their mother’s intestinal microbiome because babies get that when they pass through the birth canal. Did you know that C-section babies are more prone to autoimmune diseases? Both vaccines and Babies born by C-section are related to autoimmune diseases so the cause lies in the gut in my opinion.
        Fluoride is a known neurotoxin and endocrine disrupter and since babies only weigh a few pounds they are getting the highest dose of all. Premature babies and low birthweight babies are even more susceptible to fluoride.
        There’s also lots of other contaminants that water gets as it passes through all those pipes before it gets to your faucet. Since fluoride is so reactive it actually causes lead to be leached from some pipes.

        • maidmarian555

          You do understand that bacteria is a very bad thing for small babies don’t you? And that (using your own argument) if we were to stop treating our water that it would contain much more bacteria than it currently does? And are you also aware that in countries such as the UK (which is where I am from) that tap water is much, much more rigorously tested than bottled water? That it has to meet much higher standards than anything you can buy in a bottle off the shelf? In addition, fluoride levels (and I’m not qualified to talk about that so I’m not even going to tackle it) in tap water also vary wildly from place to place. I live in the south of England. Do you have any idea how much fluoride is added to water where I’m from? I’m going to guess you don’t know but you’re quite happy to try and scare me by banging on about it. How can you offer generalised advice to people when you clearly have no expertise on something as important as infant feeding? It’s not something you can generalise with and by offering potentially incorrect information, if somebody actually listens to you then you could make their baby sick. That’s really not ok.

          • Dan Bland

            I said use distilled water. I said nothing about stop treating water.

          • maidmarian555

            Well you will have to forgive me but I think I’ll continue to get advice on feeding my son from my GP and local Health Visiting team. You know, rather than some random guy online who posts links to articles claiming that vaccines are part of a government conspiracy to give us all robot brains…..

          • shay simmons

            Why used distilled water when tap water is as safe or safer?

          • Sean Jungian

            Does this guy just trot out different worn old woo tropes every day?

          • maidmarian555

            Sure looks like it. I am waiting for tomorrow’s exciting instalment on eating organic food and evil Monsanto.

          • Sean Jungian

            I might have a bingo if he calls GMOs “Frankenfood”!!

          • Dan Bland

            I spent 36 years breeding wheat. We can talk about that too if you want or you can go play bingo.

          • Azuran

            I hope you never used any kind of fertilizer or pesticide. Since those are far more dangerous than vaccines

          • Dan Bland

            Since we’re on the subject of pesticides, did you know that vaccines have been tested positive for glyphosate?

          • Sean Jungian

            Prove it, as we keep saying. That single very flawed study only reported in NaturalNews and other disreputable scaremonger sites doesn’t count. Published papers showing results, please.

            Also, please show where glyphosate is harmful to humans.

            Show your work. I’ll wait.

          • Mike Stevens

            Don’t hold your breath though!

          • Dan Bland

            It’s not very dangerous to people but I wouldn’t go sticking my hands in it or drinking it if I were you. But it’s the most widely used pesticide ever. It is being sprayed directly onto food crops and in some cases several times during the growing season. So it is getting into the food you eat and once in your intestines the microbiome is exposed to it and many of the bacteria down there have the same metabolic pathways as plants causing dysbiosis which can be horrific as in the case of C. diff.

          • Sean Jungian

            I sure don’t see any proof there. I see a lot of your opinion and conjecture But no proof.

          • Dan Bland
          • Heidi

            Written by USRTKer. Lolz.

          • Dan Bland

            The EPA and the EU need to do more research on gut ecology then make their allowances.

          • Heidi

            Well, okay. They gonna do that with all pesticides ever, including ones allowed in organic farming? Do we sit around and starve while we wait? That ain’t gonna work.

          • Dan Bland
          • kfunk937

            Samsel and Seneff? Pull the other one, why don’t ya.

          • Heidi

            Dan, I am not going to let me and mine starve because of a poorly done study on fish. Still didn’t answer my actual question!

            They gonna do that with all pesticides ever, including ones allowed in organic farming? Do we sit around and starve while we wait?

          • EEJIT

            While Seneff has degrees in electrical engineering and computer science,
            she has no training in medicine, healthcare, or biology. It is even
            less clear what training Samsel has or what degrees he might have been
            awarded. One must wonder what makes a self-described independent
            scientist and computer science/artificial intelligence laboratory
            scientist qualified to talk about celiac disease.

          • Dan Bland

            So you don’t trust peer reviewed studies. Heck I don’t blame you after learning that the CDC lied about vaccines and autism I don’t either.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “…the CDC lied about vaccines and autism I don’t either.”

            When all you have are lies then lying’s all you can do.

          • EEJIT

            Vaccination DOSE NOT cause Autism AND Seneff and Samsel are a joke.

          • Dan Bland

            Seneff was involved in creating the ability of computers to understand your voice. If she’s a joke then I bet you’re the only one laughing.

          • EEJIT

            She is a joke relating to Medical matters

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “Seneff was involved in creating the ability of computers to understand your voice.”

            Well then, hand her a scalpel and let her start brain surgery. /snark

          • Dan Bland

            No one said she was a doctor.

          • Azuran

            Oh, but you trust her to do research on celiac disease?

          • Dan Bland

            She’s a genius.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “She’s a genius.”

            Almost everyone is a genius about one or two things.

            Almost everyone is familiar with several things.

            Everyone is ignorant about most things.

            The key is knowing which category one falls into given a specific subject.

            You and the charlatan you call a genius fail in that regard.

          • Dan Bland

            Ok you have an opinion.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “Ok you have an opinion.”

            There are opinions based on logic, facts and scientific reasoning.

            Then there are opinions based on junk science and “feelings.”

            My opinion falls into the former category.

            Your opinions, as expressed on this page, clearly fall into the latter.

            You’re welcome.

          • Azuran

            Oh yea, where did you get that. And again, being a genius doesn’t mean she’s a valid source of info on celiac disease.

          • Dan Bland

            And you are????

          • Azuran

            I’ve never claimed to be a genius nor have I claimed to be a reliable source of info on celiac disease.
            I’ve only said that she wasn’t a credible one either.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “No one said she was a doctor.”

            “Charlatan” would be a better descriptor.

          • If that’s a qualification for medical research then I want the medical advice of the real experts.
            I want the guys who coded Dragoon Gnatchurally Speeking™. (spellink correct)
            They’re the ones who can speak authoritatively on this subject, not that Jr. Varsity 2nd stringer – Steph Seneff. What does she know? She’s never produced voice recognition software that was viable like the Dragoon guys.

          • StephanieJR

            And, even if in a parallel universe, vaccines did cause autism, AUTISM IS NOT A FUCKING DEATH SENTENCE (not yelling at you, EEJIT, but it needs to be said). You can smell the bloody ableism coming off Dan, can’t you? Absolutely reeks.

          • 655321

            No, this post is the joke.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You know what sucks as much as being on the autism spectrum? Being deaf, blind, and/or lame because your parents were too afraid of autism to get you vaccinated. At least *my* hearing loss is from a disease without a vaccine

          • 655321

            How many people do you know that are “deaf, blind, and/or lame” because they were not vaccinated? Thought so. We are seeing a generation of youth being disabled because of vaccines. Nice try.

          • maidmarian555

            My cousin is deaf from congenital measles. I went to nursery with another little girl who is deaf from measles. I also had a French teacher at school who walked with a stick after contracting Polio as a child. I’m only 36.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            measles or german measles? (just curious)

          • maidmarian555

            I believe regular measles (for both). There is a possibility I could be mistaken and that it was German Measles but the family has always referred to my cousin’s deafness as ’caused by measles’ (not that it’s, frankly, something everyone wrings their hands about regularly. We were curious as small kids as she was ‘different’ but I don’t think I’ve asked any questions about it for well over 20 years).

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Interesting (at least to me). ty

          • maidmarian555

            No problem. Now I will have to ask my mum and make sure I’m not mistaken! The girl I went to nursery with (that lost her hearing) definitely had regular measles. My mother still tells the story every time anybody talks about not vaccinating their kids (and she’s involved in a super-scary Jesus cult so it does come up with her peers). She’s staunchly pro-vax and despite the fact she’s utterly bonkers in many other respects, I am grateful that she’s given me that at least.

          • maidmarian555

            In addition, that’s just anecdotal. Despite requesting anecdotal evidence, you don’t know me. I’m just some random commenting on a discussion board on a blog. I don’t necessarily expect you to believe that I know people who’re living with the consequences of VPD. I am sure (if you were so inclined) you could have a look at some actual medical textbooks. Or historical accounts of what happened when these diseases were much more prevalent pre-vaccination. I’m sure that other commenters could point you in the direction of some if you were interested. Just because you haven’t seen something with your own eyes does not make it less true. For example; I’ve never been to Australia. I am certain that it exists. I don’t need to get on a plane and travel there to be sure about that.

          • 655321

            If you have the textbooks detailing the disease rates prior to vaccination, you must have seen the precipitous decline in nearly all infectious disease, including the diseases no vaccines were developed for, before vaccines were introduced.

          • maidmarian555

            You can take your strawman elsewhere thanks. That response has precisely nothing to do with my previous statement. Nice try though!

          • 655321

            Lol, do you even know what a straw man is?? If pointing out a fundamental flaw in your statement is a straw man, what does it say about your statement to begin with? You can’t make this stuff up.

          • maidmarian555

            I know exactly what a straw man is. I made a statement regarding the fact that I felt it was highly unlikely that you would be interested in listening to anecdotes from online strangers regarding the effects of vaccine preventable disease (when you originally made the statement “How many people do you know that are ‘deaf, blind and/or lame’ because they were not vaccinated” to which I responded as I know several). I suggested that you could (if you were interested) do some research if you wanted to know about the potential long-term effects of such diseases, and that a good place to start might be via medical text books. Your response was (and I quote):

            “If you have the textbooks detailing the disease rate prior to vaccination, you must have seen the precipitous decline in nearly all infectious disease, including the diseases no vaccines were developed for, before vaccines were introduced”

            A strawman is where you create a false argument against something the original poster did not argue. Please show me in my original comment where I did the following:

            A. Claimed to personally own any medical textbooks
            B. Claimed to have read any medical textbooks
            C. Made any claims about the decline in infectious disease rates or why those declines may have happened

            I understand that you clearly think you’re super-clever so this should be easy for a genius such as you. Please show me where the fundamental flaw in my original argument was (as you completely failed to even respond to the point I was actually making). Off you go, I wait with baited breath……

          • 655321

            So after having your statement legitimately called into question, you don’t try to support or explain the flaw, you resort to ad hominem….

          • maidmarian555

            Haha! Bravo for that attempt. A- for effort (although you don’t get full marks as simply rolling through the lexicon of debate doesn’t get you extra points I’m sad to say). Which part of my statement were you ‘legitimately’ calling into question? If you were referring to your thinly veiled attempt to damage my credentials by calling into question how many medical textbooks I’ve read on vaccination then that won’t work. You can’t damage somebody’s credentials when you’re questioning credentials they never claimed to have I’m afraid.

          • 655321

            Not at all, your statement “historical accounts of what happened when these diseases were much more prevalent pre-vaccination” is the statement under question, as it both highly questionable as well as the foundation of your post.

          • maidmarian555

            No it isn’t. Taking any statement out of context can easily skew any argument. You are fully aware that I was questioning the truth of your original statement that somehow not having seen or known anybody who is deaf, blind and/or lame as a result of VPD would diminish the position that these diseases (as in measles/rubella/polio in particular) cause these particular consequences. I *have* seen such consequences but I don’t expect you to believe the word of a random on an online post regarding that truth. And so we go back around in a circle because you keep trying to question credentials that I have never claimed to have. Are you honestly saying that you don’t believe that VPD can cause deafness, blindness and lameness or not? As I have already stated, I do not expect you to rely on the anecdotes of strangers and I am sure that if you were interested, you could ask somebody with actual medical credentials (as in NOT ME) for some pointers on where you could read up about this. You’re the one denying conventionally accepted medical advice and knowledge. Not me. I strongly suspect you’re trying to argue with me precisely *because* I’ve made it clear I’m no doctor and you think that I’m going to behave like some idiot anti-vaxxer and pretend that because I read quite a bit and have some good anecdotes that this would even vaguely compare to the kind of argument somebody with comprehensive medical training could give you. Sadly for you, I am not ashamed of the gaps in my knowledge. We all have them. The difference between somebody like you and I is that I’m prepared to admit where mine are and defer to people who are specialists in their given subjects on any topic. I know I don’t know everything. That’s good with me. Feel free to keep trying to make me look stupid because I’m not a doctor though. I strongly suspect (and hope to fuck) that you aren’t either.

          • 655321

            You’re making huge, false assumptions. Your posts are full on emotion, and very light on fact, and you accuse me of trolling. I never posted infectious disease never has sequalae, at the same time, you are avoiding the fact that vaccinations can and do cause those same sequelae. I am not trying to make you look or feel stupid, it’s unfortunate that other peoples opinions and facts that do not support your opinion upset you.

          • maidmarian555

            You said:

            “How many people do you know that are “deaf, blind, and/or lame” because they were not vaccinated? Thought so. We are seeing a generation of youth being disabled because of vaccines. Nice try.”

            I have questioned this position. Several times. You keep trying to pick apart bits of my responses when more than one of us replied to this very post because we know people who are living with the consequences of VPD. Rather than concede that it was a ridiculous stance to take (because either you believe those of us saying we have seen these consequences OR because there’s no way in a million years you’re going to buy the anecdotes of strangers), you’ve instead attempted to deconstruct my position and use repeated strawman arguments to try and make me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about. You either think VPD don’t cause these consequences (in which case your original statement was deliberately misleading and spiteful, just to make a point) or you do (in which case I have no clue why you’re continuing to try and argue with me).

          • maidmarian555

            In addition, of course I’m emotional. I’m a new(ish) mum who has a baby who’s too small to have had his MMR yet. When I see people downplaying the very real risks of diseases like measles, mumps and rubella, it terrifies me. I worry every day I take my son out of the house that we’ll run into some unvaccinated idiot who will make him sick because they’ve been sucked in by the anti-vax movement.

          • Box of Salt

            655321
            “you are avoiding the fact that vaccinations can and do cause those same sequelae”

            Please list those sequelae. And please note the severity observed for disease, and for vaccine.

          • Nick Sanders

            Good luck getting a source out of them

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps someone who posts from various sockpuppet accounts merits being called a “troll”, Herbert?

          • Mike Stevens

            Don’t worry, not a snowball’s chance in hell that Herbert has any medical knowledge, let alone medical qualifications!

          • maidmarian555

            I can see that…..I am astonished that these people keep on refusing to listen to other people with actual medical knowledge though. This thread has been an enormous learning curve for me. I’ve (obviously) heard of the anti-vax movement but I didn’t know it had moved so far past the ‘MMR causes autism’ narrative that I thought formed the bulk of their argument. I had no idea this had stretched as far as ‘Vitamin K injections also cause autism’ (which as far as I can see has become a thing because Vitamin K is administered via injection as it’s obviously not a fucking vaccine) but there ya go……I regularly get into debates with my peers online about an enormous variety of topics from politics to feminism to veganism to basically anything it’s possible to have an opinion on. Amongst that community (who all have very different opinions on many different things and who have a wide variety of education level from being ‘kicked out of school’ to PHD level) there is no argument about the efficacy of vaccines. I feel like I’m playing the most depressing, utterly bizarre version of whack-a-mole that I’ve ever played here. I (perhaps naively) did not know that people were applying the same rejection of experts that they’ve been embracing in politics to their own medical care. It’s mad. Completely mad.

          • 655321

            Ah, that be would be incorrect. Your medical qualifications, whatever they may be, do not impress me. You have used circular pharmaceutical talking points and lied by omission in this forum for at least a year as far as I can tell, pushing the vaccine agenda for whatever motives you have, either financial gain, denial and guilt, straight up ignorance, or legitimate sociopathic tendencies, it doesn’t really matter. The cool part about reading your posts is that you give a nice summation of the deceptive propaganda campaign being used by the pharmaceutical industry to attack individual and family rights.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you claim to have “medical” qualifications, Herbert?
            …You wish.
            What are they… A diploma mill course in naturopathy?

          • Heidi

            He’s a reanimator!

          • 655321

            Herbert? Heidi?

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh 655321, you have forgotten who you are pretending to be already?

            I meant “Herbert”, as in “Herbert West”, one of your other sockpuppets commenting from the same IP address.

          • Mike Stevens

            Calling you “super clever” is now an ad hominem?
            Lol.

          • Mike Stevens

            “you must have seen the precipitous decline in nearly all infectious
            disease, including the diseases no vaccines were developed for, before
            vaccines were introduced.”

            There you go conflating death with incidence again, Herbert… Tut tut!
            Do you really think that diseases such as chickenpox and measles had a “precipitous decline” before their vaccines were introduced?

            Look at this article if you want a history refresher:
            http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/209448

          • 655321

            Your article is exactly what you pharma shills love to push….leaving out disease rates and mortality rates prior to vaccination. Measles and chickenpox…2 mild childhood diseases which for 1 we have traded autism, the other increasing rates of shingles and long term other adverse effects remain unclear.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Your article is exactly what you pharma shills love to push….leaving
            out disease rates and mortality rates prior to vaccination.”

            My article dealt with disease rates, Herbert, or didn’t you bother reading it?
            Of course you wish only to talk of mortality, since that suits your fallacious argument better, but it won’t wash on people who know for a fact that disease rates did not come down for pretty much all of the vaccine-preventable childhood illnesses in the prevaccine era.

            All of the airborne infections were either the same or increasing prevalence (measles, pertussis, meningitis, pneumococcal pneumonia, rubella, mumps, diphtheria, chickenpox etc) and some of the enteric diseases like rotavirus diarrhoea were also very prevalent (hygeine can only do so much when you have an infant cr4pping all the time).

            Your claim (“you must have seen the precipitous decline in nearly all infectious disease, including the diseases no vaccines were developed for, before vaccines were introduced.”“) is demonstrably wrong, but you are either too stupid to see it, or too entrenched in antivax cognitive bias to accept it.

          • Azuran

            How easy you forget the past.
            Before we had a vaccine for chicken pox, 90% of kids got it before age 12. That’s hardly a ‘precipitous decline’
            And the vaccine came out in the mid 90s. Please, explain to us what massive improvements we made to sanitation.

          • 655321

            Chicken pox=mild childhood disease. Chicken pox vaccine=increasing cases of the more dangerous shingles.

          • Azuran

            Tell that to the 70 canadians who died each year of chicken pox. Sure, not much, but still MUCH higher than those who died from the vaccine. And that’s without factoring the huge economic impact it had, the cost of treatment and possible hospitalization.
            And you might want to look up shingles more seriously, you kinda have it backward. (which isn’t really surprising, considering you have everything backward when it comes to vaccines)

          • 655321

            70 out of how many cases? Get real. As you vaccine folk like to say, vaccine reactions are rare….well on the flip side, chickenpox complications are astronomically small.

          • Azuran

            Unless you can show me 70 people a year who died following the CP vaccination. Then obviously the vaccine is better.
            And that’s only death. It doesn’t count the massive economic impact that CP had.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Exactly. There are basically no deaths from the CP vaccine, so 70 a year is 70 unnecessary deaths. But fuck’em. They deserved to die.

          • 655321

            Way to avoid the fact that the complication rate is infinitesimally small. And we don’t know the actual rate of adverse vaccine events following the vaccine, the studies have never been done. Mighty convenient.

          • Azuran

            The rate of complication from the vaccine is even smaller than that of CP. So those 70 death are 70 people that didn’t need to die. That’s the point. And the reason you can’t really do a study to know the death rate of a vaccine? Because it is so freakishly small, that you basically have to give the vaccine to the entire population of the country to get any statistically significant number.
            But there is such a thing as continuous monitoring. We have very good information on the risks of complications or adverse effect of vaccination.

          • 655321

            The rate of complication from the vaccine is even smaller than that of CP. Source?

          • Box of Salt

            655321/Herbert Here you go: 10 years of vaccine surveillance in the US (1995 – 2005).

            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/Supplement_2/S170.long
            “There were 25,306 adverse events
            reported (52.7/100,000 doses distributed); 5.0% were classified as serious (2.6/100,000 doses distributed).”

            Do you want me to look for the disease stats? Or could you share those yourself since you’re so sure it’s a mild disease.

          • Box of Salt

            Reply to myself: not much luck finding any info on complication rates, but there is this:

            http://www.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/chickenpox/possible-complications.html

            Personally, I believe that temporary pain or stiffness of the joints (common vaccine complication) is better than a bacterial infection of the skin (disease complication, specific to chicken pox) or dying from Reye syndrome.

            And it was chicken pox that taught me what Reye syndrome is after one of my sister’s classmates died of it.

          • 655321

            Sorry boxxy, going by VAERS alone is not accurate. Do you even understand how VARS works?

          • Box of Salt

            655321, it’s Box of Salt. Making fun of someone’s screen name show a lack of confidence in your own argument.

            ” Do you even understand how VARS works?” Actually, I do. One of my kids is in it. It means that the 5% of unverified events reported in the paper is probably an overestimate.

            How about if you link to your sources with numbers?

            But since I know you’re not going to, I’ll add this from the discussion section of the paper (with apologies if the line breaks are bad):
            “Before the varicella vaccination program in the United States, ∼100 children and adults, most of whom were healthy, died
            each year from varicella [source: NEJM 2005]. In contrast, since implementation of the varicella vaccination program, deaths due to varicella have declined substantially. By 2001, varicella as an underlying cause of death had declined by 92% among children 1–4 years of age and by ⩾74% among
            all
            age groups <50 years.

          • 655321

            Reported adverse events…..

          • Box of Salt

            655321, And it took you five days (six if we count from Azuran’s comment) to come up with . . . NO references?

            Good work, 655321 /sarcasm

          • 655321

            Boxxy, sorry I have a life outside of this forum, references for what exactly? You are using REPORTED adverse events. Reported adverse events may be as low as1%.

          • 655321

            So you’re not going to attempt to back up your statement that more people die from CP than from the vaccine?

          • Azuran

            Even if I did, you wouldn’t care.
            But do you have any kind of proof that the CP vaccine kills more people? Because really, YOU are on a pro-vaccine blog. YOU are the one who parachuted here. YOU are the one trying to fight against science and change our minds.
            I have nothing to prove to you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wrong on both counts.

          • 655321

            Says the guy who throws temper tantrums fits when called on his inaccuracies.

          • Nick Sanders

            Piss off, I’ve thrown no temper tantrums or fits, and you’ve yet to show one single shred of evidence for anything, so take your ad hominem and stuff it.

          • 655321

            Hmmm, ‘piss off’, ‘stuff it’, if posting on these forums gets you so emotional you want to consider something less stressful.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Go away, Herbert

          • 655321

            Sucks when no one is buying your BS, eh?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i’m just going with international scientific consensus.

          • Nick Sanders

            Mild invective is hardly a tantrum.

          • Box of Salt

            Herbert/655321 “Chicken pox vaccine=increasing cases of the more dangerous shingles.”

            Maybe. At least that’s the UK’s excuse for not using the vaccine.

            Here in the US, most of the next generation isn’t likely to have to worry about shingles since they will have never had the disease that causes it in the first place.

          • Mike Stevens

            If you are saying there were “precipitous declines” in all infectious diseases prevaccine, how do you explain the high frequency/near universality of the following infections in the prevaccine era:
            Measles
            Mumps
            Rubella
            Pertussis
            Rotavirus
            Chickenpox

            And please explain why it was that in the prevaccine era, the incidence rates of other infections was stable or even increasing (until vaccination caused them to plummet)
            Pneumococcal pneumonia
            Invasive HiB
            Invasive Meningococcal disease
            Polio
            Diphtheria
            Smallpox

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My husband is blind because his mother caught rubella early in her pregnancy. I am deaf because there is no vaccine for scarlet fever. So that’s two right there.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            I know several. I’m the physician for an adult group home. We have many patients who are blind and/or deaf and also have mental retardation as a result of congenital rubella syndrome.

          • Box of Salt

            PrimaryCareDoc, thank you for your work.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Thanks, but the real credit goes to my patients, who were dealt a shitty hand through no fault of their own, but persevere with dignity and bravery every day.

          • Box of Salt

            “the real credit goes to my patients”

            Thinking about that has added a little bit of brightness to my day. Thank you again.

          • Azuran

            Well, My grandmother needs special shoes because polio left her with one leg slightly stunted. It’s not that bad, her cousin got it at the same time as her and died.
            And yet, the only autistic person in my family is 55 years old. So yea, I know people who have been damaged because of VPD, and no one who is vaccine injured. And I’m not saying that I don’t believe it was caused by vaccines, I mean that absolutely 0 people have every claimed to me that they had a vaccine injury in real life.
            The only other autistic person that I know personally was also completely unvaccinated when she was diagnosed so….

          • Mike Stevens

            Since I have worked as a doctor, some of it in the tropics in the 1980s, I “know” of very many such disease-damaged people.
            On a personal basis, my uncle died on his 1st birthday from “cerebrospinal fever”, aka bacterial meningitis (which is now vaccine preventable), my grandmother died of influenza, my sister is partially deaf after otitis media complicating measles, and we have many friends with fairly similar stories.
            I can’t tell you of how my child was afflicted by mumps encephalitis, or pertussis pneumonia etc, because we took the decision to fully vaccinate all our family, and they have remained free of serious infections.

          • 655321

            If you are or were a medical doctor, this explains your desperate attempt to use cognitive dissonance to clear your conscious of the guilt you have for damaging so many children. Finally makes some sense.

          • maidmarian555

            Or, of course, dead. I have no idea why, even if they honestly believe that vaccines could potentially put you on the spectrum, how that even vaguely compares to the enormous multitude of consequences from vaccine preventable diseases. And if you don’t vaccinate, you face *all* of those consequences.

          • EEJIT

            You do have Evidence that I am being paid?

            I suppose that you would not even consider that I really believe that vaccination is a good thing and I am posting here in my own time UNPAID by anyone to spread the word that vaccination is good.

          • shay simmons

            So you don’t trust peer reviewed studies.

            When they’re published in open-access journals (because quality journals try not to publish nonsense studies) by unqualified researchers? That would be a “no.”

            https://scholarlyoa.com/2015/01/08/anti-roundup-glyphosate-researchers-use-easy-oa-journals-to-spread-their-views/

          • shay simmons

            ” Stephanie Seneff is a 65-yr-old computer scientist in the Department of Artificial Intelligence at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Like [her co-author] Samsel, Seneff has magically become an expert in glyphosate biochemistry and human disease while maintaining a career in artificial intelligence. Seneff’s last eight articles have also been published in the journal Entropy, which means she and her coauthors have spent $10,816.00 to publish in the last two years.”

            “Anti-Roundup (Glyphosate) Researchers Use Easy OA Journals to Spread their Views,” Jeffrey Beall, op cit. and

            “Glysophate Pseudoscience,” Paul Strode, https://mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/glyphosate-pseudoscience/

          • Daleth

            So you don’t trust peer reviewed studies.

            Did you happen to notice who published that Seneff and Samsel article you posted? Ahem… here ya go: “Interdisciplinary Toxicology: The Journal of Institute of Experimental Pharmacology of Slovak Academy of Sciences.”

            Wow, impressive! Especially considering that they accept 90% of the articles submitted to them! That figure is proudly displayed right here (where it says “Rejection Rate: 10%”):
            https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/intox

            “Peer reviewed” doesn’t mean much if they accept NINETY PERCENT of the articles they get.

          • Sean Jungian

            Well, of course, do I even need to mention that HuffPo isn’t what we call a medical or scientific journal?

            In any case, that article has a link to a PowerPoint presentation by Narong Chamkasem, Southeast Regional Laboratory, U.S. Food and Drug
            Administration given at a meeting, which will take someone with more chemistry and biochemical knowledge than me to unravel. http://www.nacrw.org/2016/presentations/O-27.pdf

          • kfunk937

            It’s kind of strange that nacrw would include slides representing blog entries written by a RTKer and MAM, both of whom have been highly criticised on the science and fear mongering. Who knows what was said about them, it may’ve been something like “as you can see, some people are inordinately worried for no good reason.” Still it’s probably a good thing that residues researchers intend to continue. It remains to be established, however, that there is any real cause for concern regarding negative health effects in the amounts present.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Just like citing YouTube.

            Pro tip for anti-vaxxers: citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/12/pro-tip-for-anti-vaxxers-citing-youtube-is-like-citing-highlights-magazine.html

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “…citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine.”

            Excellent flashback to kindergarten.

            Thanks, @AmyTuteur:disqus ! 🙂

          • kfunk937

            OMG, Dan! Don’t you know that Moms Against Monsanto proved that there’s glyphosate in breast milk??? Doesn’t that scare you???

          • FallsAngel

            Good Lord-the Huff Po! I admit I read it for entertainment, but not for “real” news. They do have a reputation for being anti-vax.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Dan Bland

            That only proves that there are idiots in this world. I didn’t watch it.

          • Azuran

            Oh, so OUR youtube video aren’t good enough for you, but you expect us to watch yours?

          • kfunk937

            Xkcd on gut fauna, for your edification: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/gut_fauna.png

          • Sue

            Brilliant!

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s one of my favorites. I particularly like the hover text.

          • Azuran

            Oh, and please, show me the study that showed what kind of measurable effect it had.
            Did you know that almond contain trace amount of Cyanide?

          • StephanieJR

            And apple cores! I freaked out a girl in high school I didn’t like when I told her that.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “I spent 36 years breeding wheat.”

            I sure they couldn’t do it without your help.

          • J.B.

            So you mean you selectively bred crops? Next you’ll be talking about genetic engineering, you.

          • maidmarian555

            Whoops, my mistake, that’s today. Maybe tomorrow will be natural birth and chemtrails?

          • kfunk937

            He’s already done “CS deficient in vaginal flora,” so we can only hope for more.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes.

          • Sue

            They all read from the Anti-Vax Handbook, Sean.

            He just threw out #4, page 2, #11, page 4 and a couple from page 7.

          • FallsAngel

            “You do understand that bacteria is a very bad thing for small babies don’t you?” I agree with you, maidmarian555, and the funny, and I mean laughable as well as ironic, thing is that many AVs tell us increased sanitation is why the incidence of diseases went down, NOT vaccines. Now old Dan-boy is telling us the sanitation is bad.

          • maidmarian555

            I wish they would make up their minds! Sanitation is good when arguing about vaccines but terrible when arguing about formula. I mean, WTF??!

          • J.B.

            Plus a formula fed baby is broken anyway so who cares?

        • shay simmons

          But the first two, in my opinion

          Well, there’s your problem. The rest of us prefer to deal in facts.

        • RudyTooty

          I’m just going to share my perspective with you, Dan, and you can take it or leave it. (I assume you’ll leave it). But one way I evaluate on an emotional level if a source is legitimate or not (and yes, emotional response is a rather crude measurement tool), is whether the source BORES THE SNOT OUT OF ME.

          If it’s boring me to tears, it’s probably not trying to hook me by emotionally manipulating me into believing it’s true, and so I’m a little bit more partial to believing it – on an intellectual level, anyway.

          http://fluoridescience.org/fluoride-topics/infant-formula/

          • Dan Bland

            Your source is highly biased.

          • RudyTooty

            Which of your sources have not been?

          • Dan Bland

            Latest research shows no significant improvement in tooth decay with fluoridated water. The practice of water fluoridation is archaic, effectiveness is questionable, extremely inefficient, expensive and also causes health problems.

          • RudyTooty

            Citation.

            For the “latest research.”

            This is not my area of expertise. But a person very close to me is. I may have to consult her for further resources. I know she would be interested in the latest research.

          • momofone

            Please cite your sources.

          • RudyTooty

            I do feel the need to fess up that I do have some personal expertise in believing certain myths because I was enshrouded in a group of “like-minded people” who constantly fed me conspiracy-theory drivel such as 1) vaccines cause death, if not death, then autism, 2) fluoride causes mind control, 3) home birth is safer that hospital birth, 4) organic food is superior due to its lack of chemicaly-ness, and those chemicals are evil, 5) homeopathy works, 6) essential oils work, 7) aliens are real.

            Dan, I feel like we could be in play group together, or maybe hanging out at the organic-wood fired sauna at our friend’s organic farm. If not you, someone very much like you. I have heard everything you’d said and more, and have even uttered some of the same things you’re saying myself. (Not confessing which ones, because I’m positively embarrassed.)

            To wrap up: I got real with science, and what science is and what the scientific method is fundamentally, and I figured my way out of that mess. So I still have hope for you.

            That said, I admire your tenacity.

          • shay simmons
        • Sue

          “since babies only weigh a few pounds they are getting the highest dose of all. ”

          Pro Tip: Babies weighing “a few pounds” only drink a few ounces.

          Keep going, Bland Dan – you;re digging yourself deeper and deeper.

      • RudyTooty

        Flint, MI. Don’t use the tap water.

        • maidmarian555

          Oh for sure. There’s plenty of places where to do so would be really, really dangerous. My point was that it varies depending on where you are. Where I live, the advice is to use tap water as it’s safer than bottled. He is just dispensing ‘advice’ randomly without considering that the safest option in one place could be the most dangerous in another. I don’t think he understands that the world is really big.

          • RudyTooty

            Oh, I’m just trying to cross the divide (the abyss??) and play a little bit. Maybe Dan lives in Flint. Then his comment makes perfect sense.

          • maidmarian555

            If he’d have replied with that then I would have kind of understood his position. Instead I got a rambling load of nonsense about C-sections, chlorine and fluoride. In fairness I’m no scientist so I’m not really qualified to confirm it’s *definitely* nonsense but I’m pretty sure my GP would have warned me about feeding my c-section *gasp* and formula fed *gasp* baby using tap water if it was full of dangerous chemicals…..

          • RudyTooty

            It was a rambling load of nonsense, wasn’t it?
            Shifting goalposts came to mind.

            I thought we were discussing the safety of vaccines. Sigh.

            And I will concur, that there are places where the tap water is not safe to drink. And especially not safe for infants to drink. I can’t say all tap water is unsafe, because that is untrue.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            my NICU grad gets tap, though we do boil it. Mommy and Daddy get tea, the grandduchess gets formula

          • kfunk937

            Pretty sure it’s Georgia, although there are a lot of “Hard Knocks” High Schools around.

            Oh, and we may add JFK assassination conspiracy to his collection.

          • Dan Bland

            Tap water varies around the world. I think we can all agree on that. Distilled water is much less variable. It costs less than 2 bucks per gallon. I’d say that’s a pretty good investment for the health oh your baby.

          • maidmarian555

            Distilled water from where? How would I know it’s safe? Who tests it to ensure its safe and free from bacteria?

          • Dan Bland

            Well distill your own then if you’re that paranoid.

          • RudyTooty

            But few of us are that paranoid. Maybe it’s because we’re drinking from the tap.

          • maidmarian555

            You are aware that the entire anti-vax industry that you’re so fond of is built entirely on the paranoia and fear of parents? I’m astonished that you would find the idea of a new mum being paranoid about her baby surprising.

          • Dan Bland

            The pro-vax industry dwarfs anything anti-vax. The people that are concernened about the safety of vaccines are not only parents who have experienced their children regress into autism but also ordinary citizens like me, scientists, medical professionals and just normal good people who don’t have a horse in the race.

          • maidmarian555

            Ah. So “normal people” and “ordinary citizens” who are pro-vax but ‘don’t have a horse in the race’ *aren’t* good people? Uh huh.

          • EEJIT

            Hi Dan,can you point me to a site where it is proven that vaccination causes Autism?

          • Dan Bland

            1. CDC scientists colluded to cover up a relationship between the timing of the MMR vaccine and autism in African Americans that was first discovered in November of 2001. Rather than reporting the results to the public, all data regarding this relationship were destroyed at a secret meeting held some time in August/September of 2002. This fact has been affirmed via an affidavit given by Dr. Thompson to Rep. Bill Posey in September, 2014.
            2. Dr. Thompson attempted to warn the CDC Director at the time, Dr. Julie Gerberding, regarding this relationship, prior to the February 2004 Institute of Medicine meeting on vaccines and autism. Rather than allowing Dr. Thompson to present the information at this meeting, Dr. Gerberding replaced him as a speaker with Dr. Frank Destefano, current director of the CDC’s Immunization Safety Office, where he presented fraudulent results regarding the MMR vaccine and autism. Dr. Thompson was put on administrative leave and was threatened that he would be fired due to “insubordination.”
            3. When Dr. Thompson attempted to leave the CDC later that same year, he was given a $24,000 retention bonus. Dr. Thompson’s impression of the timing of this bonus, in light of disciplinary actions taken against him earlier that year, is that CDC officials were “buying his silence” through controlling his actions as a CDC employee.
            4. Dr. Thompson has published two papers linking thimerosal exposure in infant vaccines to tics in boys (Thompson et al. 2007 and Barile et al. 2012). CDC fraudulently maintains on their website that “There is no evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.” (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/). The tic result was also affirmed in the earlier CDC publication by Verstraeten et al. (2003) and the Andrews et al. (2004) publication.
            5. CDC pressured Dr. Thompson to downplay the tic result of his analysis in his 2007 paper. He was instructed to deemphasize the tic result by the CDC’s Chief Science Officer, Dr. Tanja Popovic, by emphasizing that the “major finding of the study” was “there is NO associations (sic) of thimerosal exposure with the great majority of the outcomes.” Dr. Popovic also instructed Dr. Thompson to interpret any negative outcomes as “chance findings.”
            6. CDC also pressured Dr. Thompson to withhold publication of his 2012 paper which reported a relationship between thimerosal and tics. Dr. Ed Travathan, head of the CDC’s National Center for Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, stated in an April 27, 2009 memo to him that the analysis was sound except for the tic results and that they should be omitted from the publication. Since the tic result was the only result that had a consistent negative relationship with thimerosal exposure, it seemed that Dr. Thompson’s superiors were specifically concerned that thimerosal’s safety and use not be questioned. As an epidemiologist, Dr. Thompson was justifiably concerned and critical of the CDC’s action to approve the paper for publication only after the CDC took the extraordinary step of adding an expert in tics to water down the paper to state, “This finding should be interpreted with caution due to limitations in the measurement of tics and the limited biological plausibility regarding a causal relationship.”

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “CDC scientists colluded to cover up a relationship between the timing of the MMR vaccine and autism in African Americans…”

            No they didn’t.

            And do you always copy-and-paste without so much as a cite or acknowledgement?

            Its either laziness or just plain intellectual dishonesty on your part.

          • Dan Bland

            Hell all you got to do is copy a little of that and paste it in a search engine and you too can find where I got it.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “…and you too can find where I got it.”

            So you’re admitting that you are intellectually dishonest.

            That’s refreshingly honest.

          • Dan Bland

            Have you never copied and pasted?

          • Azuran

            It is expected that someone who does a copy/paste also provides the source where he got the information.

          • kfunk937

            It is customary to cite one’s source completely and/or with a hyperlink/url, (a) so that you are neither plagiarising nor breaching copyright, and (b) so that readers may consult the original in situ such that the content may be verified. B is so that any misinterpretations and quote mining may be identified, whether intentional or not.

            It’s dishonest to do otherwise.

          • Mike Adams

            Bravo Karla!

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “Have you never copied and pasted?”

            Often… and with attribution and/or citation.

            You? Clearly not.

          • EEJIT

            Yes you have posted a story that all anti vaxxers post,also Dr Thompson did say that he recommends parents to continue vaccinating their children.

            Dan what I asked you is point me to a site that states vaccination causes Autism.thank you.

          • Dan Bland
          • EEJIT

            OOPS, Sorry my mistake I meant a CREDIBLE site

          • Sean Jungian

            *smacks palm against forehead*

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            Focus for Health?

            Brian Hooker?

            The conspiracy circle is complete: Brian Hooker claims “The Man” has gotten to the “CDC whistleblower”

            Oops.

            Postscript: That’s how you copy-and-paste with attribution (in this case, with a citation).

            You’re welcome.

          • Sue

            If you put a bit of Bland Dan’s long cut-and-paste into any search engine, you can see where it’s been copied from one anti-vax site to another. These people know so little about what they claim to be knowledgeable about that they can;t even explain in their own words.

            And they call US ‘sheeple’!

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            The pro-vax industry dwarfs anything anti-vax.”

            Yeah. That tends to happen when scientific reality is opposed by voodoo medicine and Internet fake news and YouTube videos:

            The former grows strong based on a foundation of competence while the latter sinks into an abyss of its own making, reinforced by its own epistemic closure.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Ordinary citizens” like you voted for Trump. Need we say more?

          • Dan Bland said, “if you’re that paranoid”

            KaBoom!
            There goes another Irony Meter.

          • FallsAngel

            When I lived in rural Illinois, the recommendation was no well water until the baby was a year old, due to contamination of groundwater supplies with fertilizers. Mind you, this was in “Big Ag” country.

          • kfunk937

            Even now, for private wells, there are some health concerns including bacterial, viral (Hep A) and parasitic diseases, all of which may be expected to be more serious in infants. There’s also arsenic and the like.

            We had well water, too. It was delicious. The folks down the road were not so lucky and had foul-smelling, sulphurous water, although equally safe…or not.

    • Heidi

      Welp, if I based my opinions on observation alone, I’d conclude vaccines must include something that induces reading comprehension skills. Who is promoting formula?

    • MaineJen

      You were born in, what, 1950? Formula was used pretty routinely at that time. I sure hope it was made with distilled water.

  • Beth Schultz

    Breastfeeding does not come with the possible side effect of death.

    • shay simmons

      Breastfeeding and not vaccinating does.

    • Azuran

      It can.
      I had severe allergic reaction to breastmilk. It landed me in the hospital twice before they figure out what was going on. It could have killed me.
      And if you don’t have enough milk, either because your baby has latching problem or your milk takes time coming in, it can cause dehydration, hypoglycemia and other complications.
      Having an honest discussion about possible risks or complication isn’t anti-breastfeeding. Everything has risks and benefits and it’s important to mention them to help people make the proper choice.

    • Chris Preston

      This is a graph of infant mortality in the US from 1915-1997 from the CDC. Look at the rate in those early years. In those days, children were exclusively breastfed and yet they died in their thousands. Often those deaths were the result of contracting vaccine preventable diseases like measles and pertussis.

      Relying on breastfeeding and failing to vaccinate can indeed have the side effect of death.

      Breastfeeding with vaccination is a much better option.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7e3a3d7ad572bdaa4b82ad72c9a7e358f7b45b135be537c5cf9b66baf9994a32.gif

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      It certainly does. Up to 15% of women do not produce enough breastmilk to support an infant.

      If there were no formula, thousands of babies would die each year. If there were no breastmilk all but a few premature babies would survive.

    • Nick Sanders

      Sure it does. An infant could aspirate the milk.

    • Sue

      What is the quantified risk of death from vaccination? It’s likely to be less than for breast feeding – considering exclusively BF babies can die from dehydration or malnutrition, or smothering while falling asleep feeding, and death from vaccination is almost unheart of.

    • AnnaPDE

      It does. In addition to the cases mentioned before, babies sometimes suffocate with their little noses buried in mom’s breast. One of the reasons why it’s not a good idea to fall asleep with the baby still latched.

    • RudyTooty

      How many babies have died from unsafe positioning while breastfeeding?A particularly tragic one from a few years back was an infant dying while breastfeeding on a flight.

      There are numerous accounts of infants dying after being put to breast in the adult bed with the mother who falls asleep.

      So, yeah, I would say a side effect of breastfeeding is death.

      I think that’s a very accurate way to put it, actually.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mom-warns-about-dangers-of-co-sleeping-after-sons-tragic-death-214843215.html

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      My sister’s milk would have. She needed chemo so she’d live long enough to see her baby’s 6th month.

      • StephanieJR

        Are they doing okay now?

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          My nephew’s doin’ just fine. He’s 9. My sister is back out of remission, but is in a sort of holding pattern just now

          • StephanieJR

            I hope things improve.

  • Dan Bland

    Here’s another movie trailer about how a young engineer’s life was almost destroyed after a tetanus shot. His mental problems acquired from the shot almost drove him to suicide but instead he spent the next 10 years of his life researching and compiling evidence and producing a documentary on his experience.

    https://youtu.be/sqqiy8DhyH0

    • shay simmons

      Still unable to grasp the concept of Hierarchy of Evidence, one sees.

    • Azuran

      http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/10/letting-your-daughter-get-tetanus-is-child-abuse.html And he’s the story of a 9 year old who contracted Tetanus.

      • Dan Bland
        • shay simmons

          In addition to everything ELSE you don’t quite understand…mortality vs morbidity.

          • Dan Bland

            I bet vaccines eliminated the Bubonic plaque too. Man those vaccines are miraculous.

          • kfunk937

            What is bubonic plaque?

            If you’re referring to “the plague,” it’s a bacterial infection, treated with antibiotics. Like strep throat and scarlet fever, no vaccine required at present.

          • You’re right. Vaccination had nothing to do with “eliminating” bubonic/pneumonic plague.
            Death did.

            Once 30%-50% of the population of the afflicted areas of Europe had died of the disease there wasn’t a large enough population left to allow the continuation of the epidemic. It’s called herd immunity where the effective reproduction dropped below 1. viz: Re<1.

            Are you recommending we use the same method in the modern world? Are you an anti-vaccine eugenicist? How ghoulish of you.

          • Dan Bland

            We’ve been through the herd immunity theory. It’s BS. Most people my age are unvaccinated and a lot of us have never had many of the diseases. I myself have never had mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, and on and on and on. Keep your precious child away from me. I’m a walking time bomb.

          • Mike Stevens

            Herd immunity has kept you disease free.
            Don’t knock it.

          • Sarah

            I dunno, in this specific case that sounds like one reason to knock it…

          • Azuran

            Again with your own personal experience. Herd immunity is real. Your claim that it’s not is basically at the same level as claiming the earth is flat.

          • Nick Sanders

            You seem to think herd immunity requires 100%. It doesn’t. Some of the insanely contagious diseases like measles have a threshold of 95-98%, but most aren’t that high.

          • Dan Bland

            Now I’m a ghoul.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, if you oppose vaccines!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Dude, plague is endemic in the American west in the prairie dog population.

          • shay simmons

            You’d lose that bet…the bubonic plague is still around. Man, you’re ignorant.

          • Dan Bland

            You’re still a jerk. I doubt that’ll ever change.

          • kfunk937

            Ignorance and belligerence do not a good combination make.

          • Dan Bland

            Just giving them back some of their own stuff lady. I’d prefer you speak redneck though if you don’t mind. I rarely use the word belligerence.

          • shay simmons

            You’re still breath-takingly ignorant. I am positive that will not change.

          • Dan Bland

            Are all Merck employees jerks like you?

          • shay simmons
          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Dottie: “You know something? You’re not nice.”
            Ernie” “Ooooo, that one hurt. So long milk maids.”

          • Dan Bland

            That’s right and you’re not either. I keep adding people to the blacklist. You get no more responses.

          • MaineJen

            And yet, two comments down from here, you call Shay a jerk. You are the only one calling names; we are stating facts and poking gentle fun at someone who clearly is in way, way over his head here.

          • Dan Bland

            It must be rough being a jerk. Does your mother still love you?

          • Azuran

            Must be rough being as dumb as you. Does your mother still love you? I know mine would be very disappointed if I made such a fool of myself.

          • Dan Bland

            Listen lady I’ve been showing you evidence that vaccines are dangerous for 3 days. Not only that but also showed you evidence that the research saying vaccines are safe IS FRAUDULENT. There are now millions of families with autistic children and most of these children can’t live independently and it’s costing these families thousands and thousands of dollars to take care of them. I stand with those families and I get a little perturbed when someone who stands with Merck instead CALLS ME A FOOL.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes we all have been enjoying the “evidence” you have posted in the form of YouTube videos over the last couple of days.
            Thanks for cheering us up this cold December.

          • StephanieJR

            Nice to have a laugh, isn’t it?

          • Azuran

            And we have been showing you evidence that your evidence is faulty and provided better evidence to show that vaccines are safe and effective.
            Also, we don’t stand with Merck, We stand with science

          • momofone

            You have shown Youtube videos and any number of BS graphs and charts, and you have made excuses for not showing which studies are fraudulent and how that has been established, but you have not shown credible evidence of anything except your own obstinacy.

          • Gæst

            I’d rather be autistic than dead. Oh, and vaccines don’t cause autism.

          • Sue

            I don’t “stand with Merck” but the nonsense that the person posting as “Dan Bland” puts out suggests that he or she MUST BE A FOOL.

            When you mis-use big sciencey words in an audience where many people understand medical science, it does make you appear rather foolish.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “…I’ve been showing you evidence that vaccines are dangerous for 3 days.”

            And I could show you evidence that automobiles are dangerous for 3 years.

            Wouldn’t change the fact that, as of 2011, there were only 1.13 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (source).

            Using your “logic,” no one would ever again drive an automobile because they’re “dangerous.”

            I suggest you learn the meaning of the word “proportional.”

          • Dan Bland

            I suggest you go visit a family with an autistic child who they have to care for 24/7 and worry who will take care of him when they die.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “I suggest you go visit a family with an autistic child…”

            What does that have to do with anything?

            A link between autism and vaccinations has never been scientifically proven.

            Besides, the anecdotal evidence I’ve seen seems to contradict your anecdotal evidence.

          • Dan Bland

            I’ll tell you what has been proven. It has been proven that the CDC can’t be trusted in conducting research on whether vaccines cause autism or not. Why did they trash the data proving vaccines cause autism? Does the vaccine industry have puppets in administrative positions in the CDC? That’s what it sounds like to me.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “I’ll tell you what has been proven.”

            No you can’t.

            ” It has been proven that the CDC can’t be trusted…”

            No, that hasn’t been proven.

            “Why did they trash the data proving vaccines cause autism?”

            They did no such thing.

            “That’s what it sounds like to me.”

            That’s what it sounds like to you?

            It sounds to me like you need an appointment with your otolaryngologist.

          • Heidi

            Throwing papers in the trash can is NOT destroying data. I can print out my whole Disqus profile, shred it, and throw it in the recycling bin, but I’d sure be ignorant if I thought that erased what I’ve said.

          • Heidi

            Dan, I’ve been a care provider for a severely autistic individual. It still didn’t change my mind about vaccines. They don’t have anything to do with each other. The mother had several children and her autistic son wasn’t her first child. She noticed at birth he behaved differently. She didn’t blame vaccines at all. She doesn’t blame vaccines for any autism.

            As a first time mom, I don’t know that I would pick up on early signs of autism. I really have no other baby to compare him to.

          • Dan Bland

            If the baby didn’t show immediate symptoms after vaccinations then I bet it would be hard to make the connection that vaccines caused the autism but I have heard at least 50 testimonies in which parents tell of their babies getting vaccinations and then immediately start horrific screaming that doesn’t end, fevers, seizures, terrible bowel problems. They go back to the ER and the doctors say it’s nothing to worry about and give them Tylenol which I think makes the problem worse. These babies just continue to get worse and regress until finally some specialist much later diagnoses autism.

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “…it would be hard to make the connection that vaccines caused the autism…”

            It would be hard because it would be impossible.

            “…but I have heard at least 50 testimonies…”

            Perhaps you have some anecdotal evidence for your screed, but I have contrary anecdotal evidence.

            “…which I think…”

            The evidence right here in this very thread contradicts that assertion.

          • shay simmons

            It must be rough being stupid AND ineducable. Does anybody love you?

        • Azuran

          Not really helpful info.
          What would be more informative would be the evolution of the death rate of people who actually caught tetanus.
          And the prevalence of the disease, regardless of if they die or leave.
          Then you could also possibly compare the rate of vaccination in the affected people with the rate of vaccination of the whole population.

        • Mike Stevens

          What happened in 1950 to cause the tetanus deaths to drop suddenly, I wonder?

          Was the introduction to tetanus toxoid vaccine into the routine childhood immunisation schedule in 1949 anything to do with it?

          • Dan Bland

            Go get your boosters Mike and be sure to ask for extra aluminum and mercury. And human FETAL tissue on top.

          • kfunk937

            There is no fetal tissue in any vaccine, no tissue of any type, in fact. However, I do request extra thimerosal (NOT mercury) whenever my family gets their ‘flu shots. Sadly, there’s none in those either, because every provider we go to uses individually portioned vaccines, just like 70% of the US market.

          • Dan Bland

            I went to this page and searched for the word human and there were 20 matches. You can do the same,

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

          • Azuran

            You might want to read the first line under the title. The one that said that this list also includes the mediums used to create the vaccine and that those are then removed. Granted, they are present in ‘trace’ amount. Which means basically nothing, and we are not even talking about ‘cells’ we are talking about trace amounts of destroyed cells debris.

            And even there, what’s the big deal? Is it the human or foetal part that you are bothered with?
            I’m pregnant, I have foetal cells from my baby making it in my bloodstream. It happens to all pregnant women. And women pregnant with male babies aren’t becoming hermaphrodites or anything. Nothing very particular is happening. And you think the ‘trace’ amount in a vaccine is a worry?

            Or is it the human part? Hey, guess what also contain ‘human DNA’ Blood or plasma transfusion, corneal graft also.

          • Dan Bland

            It only takes trace amounts.

          • Azuran

            Then why am I not currently dying or my immune system isn’t killing my baby? I have more than ‘trace’ amount of baby in my bloodstream right now.

          • Dan Bland

            Lady you need help.

          • Azuran

            Why? Because I’m pointing out to you that having foetal cells in your bloodstream is a normal occurrence of pregnancy.
            You are the one who thinks that having even 1 foetal protein in my bloodstream is going to fuck all my immune system.
            Also, vaccines are not injected in the bloodstream, educate yourself.

          • Dan Bland

            Your bloodstream is performing a miracle but none of your baby’s antigens are entering your bloodstream. If they are prove it to me.

          • Azuran

            Dude, yes they are, it’s a normal part of pregnancy.
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707641895
            They tests genetic disease in baby by taking blood samples of mother. They can find out the sex of the baby or tests for Down syndrome with the mother’s blood.
            And cells themselves do contain a very large amounts of antigens.

          • MaineJen

            Actually I work in transplant medicine, Dan, and yes, female patients do routinely become sensitized as a result of pregnancy. Likely due to the fetal antigens/cells which do, in fact, linger in their bloodstream for years afterward.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Oh get your arrogant learnin’ and facts out of here, will ya!

          • Gæst

            Not only that, but there is evidence that these fetal cells hang around for potentially decades after the baby is born, and they may *improve* her health.

            http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/10/26/449966350/fetal-cells-may-protect-mom-from-disease-long-after-the-babys-born

          • Mike Stevens

            Can you answer her question please, and stop with the evasion?

          • MaineJen

            *Trace Amounts* Dun dun dunnnnnn

          • kfunk937

            Some vaccines, like the rubella vaccine, are cultured on a human cell substrate. However, cells are not tissue. Neither are present in the finished product. Even the Roman Catholic Church approves of vaccines that were produced using those cell lines (which are many generations removed from their source) because of the great value to saving lives and improving their quality by prevention of those diseases.

            Are you really this uninformed, or is this a put-on to get attention?

          • Dan Bland

            Listen lady cells…tissue…it doesn’t matter. All it takes is a protein……one protein….when the protein is injected directly into the bloodstream bypassing the majority of the immune system it is detected by antibodies and the antibodies do their job. Now if that human protein is similar to a protein in the body somewhere. That is when the antibodies are tricked and start attacking the body it is suppose to protect. When this happenes the result is an autoimmune disease.

          • Azuran

            *cough* blood transfusion.

            Also, weird how my body is not currently mounting an immense immure response to my baby’s cells right now.

            And no, one protein is not all that it takes. The body won’t start an immune response for one protein.

          • Dan Bland

            The simplest virions consist of two basic components: nucleic acid (single- or double-stranded RNA or DNA) and a protein coat, the capsid, which functions as a shell to protect the viral genome from nucleases and which during infection attaches the virion to specific receptors exposed on the prospective host cell.

          • Azuran

            And? What does that has to do with traces amount of pieces of foetal cells?
            Are you just spouting random facts and trying to use big words just to make yourself look smart?

            Also, The body won’t mount an immune response to 1 virus. If it did, we wouldn’t need adjutants and vaccines would contain even less viral material.

          • Dan Bland

            A virus is an antigen. Do you understand that? Made up of protein and nucleus acids.

          • Azuran

            Yes, but 1 antigen alone doesn’t not produce an immune response. The possible trace amounts of foetal tissues are not a big deal

          • Mike Stevens

            What is a “nucleus acid”?

          • A virus is an antigen in roughly the same way that a warehouse is carbon monoxide.

          • MaineJen

            OMG. *dying*

          • Dan Bland

            Update this lady with vaccines. She’s dying.

          • RudyTooty

            *dying*

            Since I’m a Thinking Mom, I can tell this means she’s laughing her behind off. (Figuratively, in case I need to explain this, too.)

          • MaineJen

            You got it, Rudy. I see your dilutional mind is up and running this morning!

          • RudyTooty

            I’ve diluted with coffee. That evil elixir that renders homeopathy ineffective.

          • MaineJen

            I haven’t diluted with nearly enough coffee for this BS.

          • Dan Bland

            Can any of you people here carry on a discussion without being so condescending?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, everyone. These snarky replies aren’t conducive to discussion. Dan can’t just cut and paste from anti-vax sites in response to snark and condescension. Stick to the script!

          • shay simmons

            Can you carry on a discussion without being so ignorant?

          • Dan Bland

            Prove to me the body won’t produce antibodies agains one virus. Cite your sources. I’ll treat you like I’ve been treated since I’ve been here.

          • Azuran

            Prove to me that it does

          • Dan Bland

            Good night.

          • Azuran

            Well, you see, YOU came here to try and educate us. So really, if YOU think foetal cells are a problem, it’s YOUR job to prove they are.

          • Dan Bland

            It has been proven that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases. Many of the payouts from the VICP were for autoimmune diseases. So…of all the ingredients in vaccines which one would you suspect to be the cause of the immune system attacking the body it is suppose to protect. I’d suspect the ingredient most similar to human tissue. For example, in the case of type 1 diabetes, I’d suspect the ingredient most resembling beta cells.

          • Nick Sanders

            It has been proven that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases.

            Proven by whom? When and where did they prove it?

          • kfunk937

            It has been proven that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases. Many of the payouts from the VICP were for autoimmune diseases.

            So, you should be able to cite them, right?

            And no, it has not been proven. One small working group has a pet hypothesis rejected for lack of foundation by the rest of the scientific community.

            Do you believe in chemtrails too? How ’bout lizard overlords?

          • Dan Bland

            You get no more responses from me either. I’ll only talk to the civil people here from now on.

          • kfunk937

            So you can’t list the names or case numbers? What a shock.

            I’ll only talk to the civil people here from now on.

            This from someone who vaguely threatened this blog’s owner. You do know that you continue to comment here at her pleasure, right? For the entertainment value you provide as an intellectual chew-toy.

            Much of what you espouse is not supported by evidence and some is frankly just made up from whole cloth. However, even weaponised ignorance is curable. Give it some thought.

          • shay simmons

            Says the a$$hole who started tossing out shill accusations yesterday the first time someone proved him wrong.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Do you believe in chemtrails too? How ’bout lizard overlords?

            He’s a truther, too, so I wouldn’t be surprised

          • kfunk937

            Yeah I saw that he’s a troofer. And displays concern for the purity of our bodily fluids (anti-fluoride) and seem okay with bringing back cholera (anti-chlorination). I’m unclear why he doesn’t hang out at NatchrulNoise or some other idiot’s blog?

          • (((Mr_Liberal ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ)))

            “It has been proven that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases.”

            No. That hasn’t been proven.

            Certainly not in any scientific understanding of the word “proven.”

          • Mike Stevens

            I can see that your amateur pseudoscientific take on immunity might go down well on websites frequented by scientific ignorami such as Age of Autism, but you seem to be struggling rather a lot here Dan, with your lame attempts to make sense.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Prove to me the body won’t produce antibodies agains one virus. Cite your sources.”

            The fact that small quantities of antigen do not evoke significant clinical immune responses should be prima facie evidence. This is why some vaccines require larger quantities of the attenuated virus than would be needed to cause disease if the virus were wild-type. And as Azuran has explained, many vaccinations also require adjuvants to enhance the immune response to the antigens, because it is suboptimal.

            There are many sources explaining how the immune response is dependent not just upon the type of antigen, the timing and the route of exposure, but also the dose. Immunoreactivity is dose dependent.
            PMID 9176709

            There are exceptions – prior sensitisation can lead to a situation where re-exposure to even tiny amounts of antigen can induce anaphylaxis. But that isn’t the scenario you are talking about.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Prove to me the body won’t produce antibodies agains one virus.

            So what if it does? That’s what the immune system is SUPPOSED to do – to create antibodies to remove pathogens.

            Our bodies are producing antibodies all the friggin time, against all sorts of things we encounter.

            I don’t get it. You act like that is a BAD thing?

          • shay simmons

            . I’ll treat you like I’ve been treated since I’ve been here.

            They keep asking him for evidence, the meanies.

          • shay simmons

            I’ll go with “spouting random facts” for $500, Alex.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Are you just spouting random facts and trying to use big words just to make yourself look smart?”
            Clearly.
            Dan’s copy pasting from some science text, without attribution.
            When he tries out the words for himself, he gets them wrong (eg “nucleus acid” instead of “nucleic acid”). He clearly hasn’t even done basic school biology.

          • MaineJen

            Look everybody! Dan has learned the fine art of copy-paste:

            https://quizlet.com/104179417/biology-flash-cards/

          • Dan Bland

            Look everybody Jen is a jerk.

          • momofone

            Look, everyone, Dan is a thief, trying to pass off non-attributed cut-and-pasted material as his own thoughts.

          • Dan Bland

            I did cut and paste a couple of times last night. You understood that so it should have been obvious what I was doing.

          • RudyTooty

            Aw shucks, I do it, too. I’ll own up to that.

            In fact this morning I just copied and pasted a meaningless graph and a youtube video. Totally guilty.

          • momofone

            That’s interesting, since your war cry all day yesterday was “cite your sources.”

          • Heidi

            Not really sure what you are even saying, but if you are saying is all it takes is only one human protein in the bloodstream to elicit an immune response that then develops into an autoimmune disease then woooah. What? I’m sure all of us have had others’ DNA make contact with our bloodstream. During intercourse microabrasions occur within the vagina. I’ve had sex and I never had an immune reaction.

          • Sue

            “Listen lady…” Hilarious!

            Why would anyone here listen to some numpty anti-vaxer trying to explain pseudo-immunology?

          • Dan Bland

            Jerk

          • Mike Stevens

            What proteins are “injected directly into the blood stream”?
            How does something which according to you “bypasses the majority of the immune system” evoke an immune response?
            Why is autoimmune disease not universal, if even a single protein will cause it? Why do those who get blood transfusions (who receive thousands of foreign human proteins directly into the bloodstream) not all develop autoimmune disease?

            If you come up with a bizarre pathogenetic hypothesis like you have, shouldn’t you have some evidence of biological plausibility?

          • Peter Harris

            And you do??
            Hilarious.

          • MaineJen

            “lady cells” LOLOLOLOL

          • Dan Bland

            Lady is a jerk.

          • RudyTooty

            Whence comes your knowledge?

          • shay simmons

            when the protein is injected directly into the bloodstream

            Which vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream, Dan? Name them.

          • Dan Bland

            you don’t deserve any more responses from me. Sorry buddy.

          • kfunk937

            No one, and I mean no one deserves your misguided misinformation posts, either.

          • shay simmons

            What an ingrate, to repay thusly the many people here who are trying to shine a light into the darkness of your ignorance.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Can you answer her question?

            Which vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream?

          • Sue

            I went to medical school and learned biochemistry, immunology and toxicology, and how to interpret scientific studies. Unfortunately, it seems that “Dan” can’t do the same.

          • Dan Bland

            Jerk.

          • Mike Stevens

            I sure will.
            Now, can you answer my question please?

          • Dan Bland

            What’s the difference in being punctured with a nail with the bacteria and being punctured by the booster. Shouldn’t you produce antibodies both ways?

          • Sue

            Thanks for visiting, Dan. Your contribution here shows how scienitifically ignorant anti-vaxers can be. It’s very instructive to passing readers.

          • Dan Bland

            Another jerk. Why are there so ,any jerks here?

          • shay simmons

            Why are there so ,any jerks many well-informed people who can correct my mistakes here?

            FTFY.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because you come in and act like we’re the problem after flinging insults left and right. We aren’t the jerks, you are.

          • Dan Bland

            You know antibiotics were discovered about that time. Maybe that had something to do with it,

          • Azuran

            The tetanus toxin doesn’t give a fuck about antibiotics, by the time you are diagnosed with Tetanus, even if you clear the bacterial infection with your antibiotics, the toxin is still present. It’s binding to the neuron is irreversible. You can only wait until the neurons heal, which takes weeks.

          • Dan Bland

            Well maybe people aren’t stepping on as many rusty nails now. Heck back then kids played outside and had fun. Now they’re glued to some computer.

          • Azuran

            Or maybe it’s because whenever someone steps on a rusty nails, they give a tetanus booster.

          • Dan Bland

            Why would they need a booster? Didn’t the rusty nail introduce the antigen?

          • Azuran

            Natural immunity to tetanus is actually not very good.
            And to get natural immunity, you have to be infected with freaking tetanus.
            With the booster, you get immunity without getting the disease.
            Tetanus is not a mild disease. Even today, it still has a death rate that can go as high as 10%. And those who make in through don’t have a mild case of ‘flu like symptoms’ We are talking full body paralysis and muscles spasms for weeks, tube feeding, possibly needing a ventilator to be able to breath, possible bone of breaking fractures. And then, multiple
            weeks of readaptation.

            I have seen what tetanus can do, it’s not pretty.

          • Nick Sanders

            Natural immunity to tetanus doesn’t exist at all. The toxin is so potent that a lethal dose is far less than what’s required for the immune system to learn to make antibodies to it. Only by denaturing the toxin and adding adjuvants can we get it to a level where the body will learn it and adapt to it. Without vaccines, there is no immunity to it at all.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, but the point of tetanus vaccine is not to provide antibodies against the antigen, but to provide antitoxin. The vaccine won’t prevent the tetanus bacteria releasing toxin, so to ensure there are adequate levels of antitoxin around to mop up what the tetanus would produce, a booster shot is usually given. A bit unecessary, I know, but many people say better safe than sorry.

          • Mike Stevens

            Maybe this chart, which you helpfully provided, might demonstrate that charts can prove anything!:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3709c58515a122706d00ca7f45d2d8ddc9ed5cbe338de92bf30980ae5b082b2e.jpg

          • RudyTooty

            Here’s a chart with the requisite evidence supporting it required for the Thinking Moms to believe it. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0694357cfa6d04766f82075ba94ab60670d0db57c63043ccfc5b9a2aef1e400e.png

          • Azuran

            As a future mother, I declare this as the truth. Which according to Dan, is all the proof needed.

          • N

            In the 80’s I played outside and had fun. Playing parc, grassland with cows, woods, a stream,…

          • sdsures

            Ditto – I lived on a farm.

          • Nick Sanders

            Kids were not glued to computers in the 50’s.

          • Mike Stevens

            Funny how kids “stopped stepping on rusty nails” just after the vaccine was put on the vaccination schedule, huh?
            I suppose the shot must have provoked a tremendous fear of sharp objects, and these were studiously avoided by all vaccine recipients.

          • MaineJen

            Dude. You’re embarrassing yourself.

          • Dan Bland

            In your dilutional mind maybe

          • RudyTooty

            Good morning, Dan! Let’s not abrogate the niceties.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_u3YRZb74w

          • MaineJen

            My dilutional mind is quite well developed, actually. I have to create serial dilutions for work every day. XD

          • RudyTooty

            A dilutional mind. That is so trippy.

            Coffee. Dan. Coffee. Or tea. Or Mtn Dew. Or ‘awaken’ essential oil blend $65/oz. Spit spot.

          • Azuran

            Or better yet: Coffiest. Breakfast and coffee in one!!! (beurk)
            Oh well, gtg see the baby doctor. For some weird reason she want’s to make extra sure it’s healthy before she start poisoning her with her vaccines :p

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Gotta get going early!

          • MaineJen

            Don’t forget the lady cells!

          • Mike Stevens

            Very fickle these docs. You’d think they actually wanted people to have healthy babies the way they sometimes carry on…

          • Dan Bland

            I suppose you’ve never misspelled a word before. Now she thinks she’s perfect too. Wow maybe we should all bow down before you and worship you.

          • MaineJen

            No, honey. See, “delusional” is a completely different word than “dilutional.”

          • kfunk937

            *dilutional*
            So you’re into homeopathy, too?

          • Sean Jungian

            I LOL’d. ^5

          • Dan Bland

            You are on the blacklist too. No more responses from me.

          • Azuran

            So, you come here to argue your nonesense with us and get mad at us for not taking your youtube video seriously, then you ‘blacklst’ us. That’s like, so 3 years old.

          • Mike Stevens

            He said he would turn off notifications and stop responding 2 days ago.
            Like everything else he said, it was a lie.

          • Sean Jungian

            Maybe he can’t quit us because deep down he knows we might just be on to something with this whole “vaccines are safe and effective” thing…

          • Sean Jungian

            BLACKLISTED! For shame, @MaineJen:disqus !!!

          • shay simmons

            Following a tornado, public health departments see a spike in demand for tetanus shots. After the tornado in Washington, IL in 2013 the Tazewell County HD put two RNs in a car with a supply of vaccines and had them follow the Red Cross vehicles around. They administered almost 300 vaccinations in the week following the tornado.

            I refer you to the Handbook of Bioterrorism and Disaster Medicine, p. 62.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            In 1950 kids were inside glued to their computers?

          • Dan Bland

            What?

          • Mike Stevens

            The drop in tetanus deaths occurred from the 1950s.
            Don’t you read the comments here, or do you just fire off abuse?

          • Mike Stevens

            Unlikely, seeing how the effect of antibiotics is virtually zero once someone has developed tetanus. You do know how tetanus kills people, I hope?

          • Sarah

            Horribly.

          • shay simmons

            Antibiotics were discovered in 1950? I wonder how sulfa and penicillin came to be so widely used 1939-1945. Perhaps the military medical establishment had a time machine?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            One of my goals at some point is to write a book that I will call “The Necessity that is the Mother of Invention,” about all the great scientific developments of WW2. Penicillin was discovered before WW2 (in 27, I think) but came to prominence during the war for obvious reasons (and not so obvious reasons, like to cure VD, being one of the main ones)

          • shay simmons

            Are you familiar with the US Army’s Borden Institute? Some fascinating stuff there. That’s where I learned everything I know about wound ballistics (which is not very much, admittedly, and pretty much limited to the 19th century).

            http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/

          • shay said, “pretty much limited to the 19th century”

            Learned a lot about the effects of the .45-70 405gr bone smasher/buffalo killer?
            Or maybe something more “traditional” like the 1861 Springfield with the .58 Minié ball?

            I happen to know someone who owns an original CW Springfield muzzle loader. Bought it back in the 1960s when nobody wanted them and they were giving them away.

          • shay simmons

            Mostly .58 and .52 caliber, with a little grape and canister thrown in.

            My father was in the NSSA (black-powder shooters, not re-enactors).

            http://www.n-ssa.org/

            The problem with original weapons is that they are rarely in good enough shape to actually shoot.

    • Mike Stevens

      You realise that in the scientific community YouTube videos aren’t regarded as evidence?

      • Dan Bland

        Ok mr scientist I’ll quit posting YouTube videos. I apologize.

    • FallsAngel

      Snort!

    • Gæst

      Ha ha ha ha ha! I mean, yes, that’s very sad that after he had a tetanus shot some bad things happened. But this video provides zero evidence that it was CAUSED by the vaccination.

    • MaineJen

      *Trace Amounts* *Fuzzy Focus* *Ominous Music* Dun dun duuunnnnnn

  • Dan Bland

    There are very few studies on vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. An experiment reported just this year is being discredited again and removed from the Internet. Why? Because of these conclusions:
    “A total of 415 mothers provided data on 666 children, of which 261 (39%) were unvaccinated. Vaccinated children were significantly less likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with chickenpox and pertussis, but significantly more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia, otitis media, allergies and NDDs (defined as Autism Spectrum Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and/or a learning disability).”
    Read more at http://www.wakingtimes.com/2016/12/01/first-ever-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-children-removed-web/#IMjzSBBOYF5eCSiG.99

    • shay simmons
      • Dan Bland
        • shay simmons

          Do you admit you were wrong and there are in fact a lot of studies comparing the two groups?

          • Dan Bland

            There have been a few and I think that’s what I said. You’re a jerk you know that?

          • shay simmons

            You’re an ignorant buffoon. I think I come out slightly ahead in this regard.

          • Dan Bland

            I picture you in one of those small cubicles in front of a computer being paid by Merck. I’d much rather be a buffoon.

          • shay simmons

            I’d much rather be a buffoon.

            Self-evident.

          • Dan Bland

            I didn’t say I was I said I’d rather be one.

          • shay simmons

            How nice for you that your preference has become reality.

          • Azuran

            Just the fact that you are loony enough to think that there are actually people paid by Merck to argue with you on the internet is proof that you are indeed a Buffoon

          • Heidi

            Yeah, I’m not sure how that shill theory plays out in their head. It’s not like any of them ever see the light and decide to vaccinate their children. It sure would be wasted money to pay shills to make internet comments!

          • Who?

            I find the shill argument crass. It posits that all provax people are insincere-only the pure of heart don’t vaccinate.

            Much easier to be happy when your bubble is up on some moral high ground you have built for yourself.

          • Sue

            “Dan” didn’t say he was a buffoon – but his or her comments have revealed it clearly. And repeatedly.

          • Dan Bland drooled, ” I’d much rather be a buffoon.”

            Mission accomplished.

          • Linden

            It’s good to be happy with one’s lot in life.

          • shay simmons

            “There are very few studies on vaccinated vs unvaccinated children.”

            http://disq.us/p/1eh9mx1

          • Mike Stevens

            3 responses to one comment?
            I think you are trying too hard not to be seen as a wimp.

          • Dan Bland

            You’re a wimp too. A dumb wimp to boot.

          • Azuran

            and after shill calling, we are now to the ‘no, you’re stoooopid’ level of argument.
            That is sure to convince people to take you seriously

          • Dan Bland

            How many studies have there been? Cite your sources. Did you count the ones I posted. How many have there been?

          • shay simmons

            Pubmed – 18,900, op cit.

          • Dan Bland

            That’s a search result man!

          • shay simmons

            Of course it is. What did you think? Are you unfamiliar with PubMed?

          • Dan Bland

            Pubmed is not necessarily a medical search engine?

          • shay simmons

            Okay, you’re unfamiliar with PubMed.

            Or you’re being dishonest/disingenuous. Dealer’s choice.

            “PubMed is a free search engine accessing primarily the MEDLINE database of references and abstracts on life sciences and biomedical topics. The United States National Library of Medicine (NLM) at the National Institutes of Health maintains the database as part of the Entrez system of information retrieval.”

          • Dan Bland

            It’s biology. I actually was searching for hessian fly resistance in wheat today and it was on pubmed.

          • shay simmons

            “Life Sciences and Biomedical” — or is reading for comprehension just another addition to the long list of things you can’t do?

          • Dan Bland

            I’m 66 and plowing you under the ground.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You don’t seem to realize that we are laughing at you. You aren’t convincing anyone of anything beyond your gullibility.

            Feel free to keep providing entertainment for the rest of us if you want to do so, but you are living in a fantasy world if you think anyone here takes you seriously.

          • shay simmons

            Except when it comes to, you know…facts n’$hit.

          • Dan Bland

            You’re a wimp.

          • shay simmons

            But a wimp who knows what PubMed is.

          • I’m not sure if being called a Weakly Interacting Massive Particle is an insult or not.

            I myself, am, of course, a Massive Astrophysical Compact Halo Object or a MACHO.
            Devilishly handsome too, if I do say so myself.

          • shay simmons

            It’s the uniform. We just can’t resist a man in uniform.

          • EEJIT

            Beaten and now reduced to name calling tut tut.

          • Dan Bland

            Just giving what I’ve been getting.

          • Azuran

            You know, you are the one who parachuted here. No one cares, just go. No one is going to follow you. And you sure as hell aren’t going to make any of the regular members leave.

          • Dan Bland

            You can take you list and shove it wimp.

            I’ve decided to give you a taste of your own snake oil medicine.

          • Mike Stevens

            Snake oil would serve as a great lubricant for that purpose, yes.
            Please feel free to keep up the supply.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Snake oil is a strange thing to call the treatments that are standard in medicine. But then we already know he’s hopeless

          • shay simmons

            Have fun with him, Doc…it’s 18F out and there’s an inch of new snow on the ground; time for me to go out and foreclose on/dispossess a few widows and orphans.

          • Sean Jungian

            What? Wait until next week, when it’s just a few days before Christmas. The orphan tears are extra delicious then.

          • shay simmons

            I feast on their lamentations BWAHAHAHAHA!

          • shay simmons

            “I’ve decided to give you a taste of your own snake oil medicine.”

            Let me know when you start posting evidence.

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps he doesn’t regard vaccination in children as “biomedical”?

          • shay simmons

            Doesn’t know what PubMed is – check.
            Doesn’t know what the scientific heirachy of evidence is – check.
            Doesn’t know what study design or IRBs are – check.

            EDITED TO ADD: Doesn’t know the difference between mortality and morbidity – check.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Dan Bland

            Watch this video to hear what Dr. Boyle from CDC says about vaccinated vs unvaccinated.
            https://youtu.be/dE9ZrybFDBw

          • shay simmons

            Argumentum ad YouTube? Let me introduce you to my little friend “Scientific Heirarchy of Evidence.” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/09b4855707d5596f2e6db462531aa2688f12ddae65c3f7c0cf7d45c3a133e0db.jpg

        • Azuran

          Source of those graphs?

          • Mike Stevens

            They are from an Internet survey among antivaccine parents.

          • Azuran

            No wonder he didn’t provide them

          • Sue

            And copy-pasted from one anti-vax site to another.

        • Nick Sanders

          Surveys are worthless. Statistical analysis or GTFO.

        • Sue

          What kind of a diagnosis is “herpes”?

          That word relates to a group of viruses – which range from herpes simplex to varicella-zoster, Epstein-Barr virus and even CMV. So which do you mean – chicken pox – or glandular fever?

          This is just a cut-and-paste list that is passed from anti-vaxer to anti-vaxer, like a herpesvirus.

      • Dan Bland
      • Dan Bland

        What about those?

        • shay simmons

          There are actually several studies comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated children…unlike your claim.

          Go to Google and type in “pubmed vaccinated vs unvaccinated.” You’ll get 18,900 results.

      • Dan Bland

        Either these are also fraudulent research reports or they are hand picking and only showing data that promotes YOUR opinion.

        • shay simmons

          You’re welcome to come up with the retractions/rebuttals — oh wait. You said yesterday you didn’t have time for that.

          Plenty of time to post memes, no time to actually come up with evidence.

          • Dan Bland

            I’ve posted evidence and you refused it exactly like the government and media.

          • shay simmons

            You’ve posted a couple of memes, and links to studies that either did not say what you think they said, or were retracted for shoddy research.

        • Azuran

          oh, but Wakefield’s study wasn’t fraudulent and you aren’t hand picking data that promotes your opinion

          • Dan Bland

            wakefield’s career was destroyed by the Vaccine industry. His data was not fraudulent. His data did not even conclude that vaccines cause autism

          • shay simmons

            wakefield’s career was destroyed by the Vaccine industry. his own greed.

            FTFY.

          • Azuran

            Wakefield’s career was destroyed by his own fraudulent action. He made a bogus study to make parent’s fearful of vaccines so he could sell his own. He got busted.

          • Mike Stevens

            You are right, his data didn’t conclude that.
            But he did.

          • He announced, at the press conference for his initial study, that vaccines cause autism. He has continued to say that ever since.

          • Dan Bland

            The mothers that approached him said their children became autistic because of vaccines. They contacted him because he was a GI surgeon, one of the best in the U.K., and their children not only had autism but horrendous bowel problems. He DID NOT conclude that vaccines caused autism but did conclude that further research was warranted.

          • Wakefield was approached by their attorney. He wanted some proof vaccines cause autism so he had Wakefield do the study. Fraud, unethical practices, lies. The study only concluded that some children with autism have gut issues. But, Wakefield announced, at the press conference, that vaccines cause autism. And he has kept saying it ever since.

          • Sue

            Wakefield was definitely NOT “one of the best in the UK” – he didn’t even conduct surgery, but did small-time research.

            He wrote up a descriptive study of twelve kids, and fudged some of the findings.

            He was never famous as a clinician, but he made himself VERY famous as a fraud.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The mothers that approached him said their children became autistic because of vaccines. They contacted him because he was a GI surgeon, one of the best in the U.K., and their children not only had autism but horrendous bowel problems.”

            The mothers who approached Wakefield did so because they were part of a legal aid claim against MMR run by Barrs Solicitors, who had also approached Wakefield and had employed him to produce evidence that MMR caused autism. The children had some bowel issues, but it wasn’t “horrendous” by all accounts. In fact some of the children had so little in the way of bowel problems that Walker Smith had to be persuaded by Wakefield to admit them for bowel tests. The ostensible reason in one child was that he had a raised level in his blood of one inflammatory marker (CRP) that might be linked with bowel problems, but is extremely non-specific. The normal range is around 1-4, and sometimes patients get levels of greater than 400. The child had a level of 6, and no bowel complaints.

            Wakefield was a GI researcher, rather than a surgeon, but not one of any note or repute. He did not perform open bowel surgery, only endoscopic procedures. Of course he is not able to practice as a doctor of any description now, having had he license revoked.

          • shay simmons

            Ever notice how the anti-vaxxers’ experts are always world-renowned and the leading expert on such and such?

          • Sarah

            Where on earth have you got the idea that he was one of the best GI surgeons in the UK?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Correct, Kathy.
            .
            Royal Free Press Release 2 days before the 28 Feb. 1998 publication of Wakefield’s fraudulent study in The Lancet:
            briandeer(dot)com/mmr/royal-free-press-1998.pdf
            Distributed to the press on 26 Feb. 1998
            Quote:
            “Dr. Wakefield said: “The study has identified a possible link between gut disorders in children and autism. In the majority of cases the onset of symptoms occurred soon after the MMR vaccination. We clearly need further research to examine this new syndrome, and to look into a possible relation to the MMR vaccine.“”
            .
            Yep. Wakefraud never implied that the MMR vaccine had anything to do with causing autism in his 1998 study. (/sarc)
            Note Wakefraud calls his work a “study” and also impugns the MMR vaccine days before the release and publication of his fraudulent study, putting the lie to both claims by the anti-vaccinationists that he said/did neither of these.

          • Sue

            No – Wakefield’s career was destroyed by himself.

            He was investigated by the independent regulator for misconduct. The GMC has nothing at all to do with industry.

            More anti-vax ignorance.

            Keep going, “Dan” – see if you can get the full house.

          • AnnaPDE

            You mean his career in gathering evidence in unethical ways, falsifying results and peddling his own vaccines after slandering the existing ones? Yeah, that one was destroyed by the honest parts of the medical community.
            His medical career, on the other hand, he managed to destroy all by himself.

          • Linden

            Wakefield’s career was destroyed because he paid children to give him their blood at a children’s party… without the consent of their parents.
            You’re against children being stuck with needles without their parents’ consent, though, right?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Brian Deer probably did the most to destroy Wakefield. He is a journalist, not part of the “Vaccine industry”

            (note: you should inform whatever source you copied and pasted that from that “Vaccine” should not be capitalized in this sentence)

          • Dan Bland

            I don’t care for grammar police either.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Hey, I figure if you can’t get anything else right, maybe you could at least get the grammar right. But then, to do that, the people you copy and paste from would have to get their grammar right.

        • Nick Sanders

          Or your source is wrong. Since, you know, it’s first sentence said that the study was the first ever comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated.

        • Mike Stevens

          Have you bothered to even look up any of these research studies, or did the claim “Fraudulent!” just get reflexley expelled from your antivaccine meme A-hole?

    • MaineJen

      Goodness sake, are you still here?

      • shay simmons

        “…and burbled as he came.”

    • shay simmons

      ” An experiment reported just this year is being discredited again and removed from the Internet. Why?” Because it was designed and conducted without the proper controls.

      • Dan Bland

        So are you saying all those mothers lied?

        • shay simmons

          What did the mothers have to do with the study design?

          You are familiar with how research studies should be designed, correct? You know what IRBs do, and all that?

          • Dan Bland

            The research was gathering info from MOTHERS.

          • shay simmons

            But they did not design the study, which lacked proper controls.

            Reading comprehension fail…again.

          • Azuran

            OMG that is the most biased and less reliable form of study EVER.

          • Rene?
            Is that you?

          • kfunk937

            Made me laugh, at least. (No comments in a week.)

          • Dan Bland

            My name is Dan.

          • Mike Stevens

            🙂

          • Gæst

            The study still needs to be *designed,* regardless of where the info comes from. IRB approval still matters. Unbiased questions matter. Etc.

        • Azuran

          Oh so, a mother says her child is vaccine damaged, that’s acceptable evidence for you.
          But we need double blind placebo studies on pregnant women to be sure they are safe?

    • Sue

      Here is a much better reference than “wakingtimes”, which shows that vaxed kids get less vaccine-preventable infections but no more asthma or allergies.

      https://thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/10/myth-no-studies-compare-the-health-of-unvaccinated-and-vaccinated-people/

      It’s really funny when the anti-scientists visit. They ply the same old tropes, as if we’ve never heard them before.

    • maidmarian555

      You know I’ve read about that study and was going to write a carefully crafted list of reasons, using numbers and logic as to why it might have been pulled before any part of it (other than conveniently for the authors, the “results”) was published. Then I read that article you posted, which started off talking about that research and then quickly descended into how vaccine makers don’t want us to know about vaccine injuries because the governments are going to replace our brains and souls with robots. I mean…..really?! You really buy that??! Wow.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        You really buy that??! Wow.

        He doesn’t believe muslim terrorists knocked down the WTC towers. He’s a complete nut.

        • maidmarian555

          Well at least that’s a conspiracy theory I’ve heard of. This robot brain one is a whole new world of batshit!

  • Dan Bland

    Please listen to this mother of an autistic child.

    https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn

  • MCR

    “Who cares what they think?” may be the key phrase in this article.
    My kids were vaccinated; but I know a lot of parents who either don’t vaccinate, avoid certain shots, or are deeply concerned about the decision. They don’t get real answers from their MDs, health services, or the manufacturers of vaccines. All they get are versions of Dr Tuteur’s approach: shame non-vaccinating parents, pressure them, sanction them. Small wonder if they become suspicious.
    Most parents I’ve met who are put in the “anti-vaxxer” category aren’t actually anti-vaccine. They have questions and concerns. Wouldn’t it be safer to give babies vaccines one at a time, instead of four or five in one shot? Is my baby’s apparently severe reaction really normal, or should I be concerned? I believe in immunization in general, but is such-and-such vaccine really a good idea? Are safety tests reliable if they’re done by the people who make money from the vaccine? Parents who ask these questions are not crazed, anti-medicine cranks – or not yet. But brush off and ridicule their legitimate concerns long enough, and they might be.

    • Erin

      So I had severe convulsions after the measles vaccination and my parents stopped vaccinating me.

      When I was discussing the MMR with my Doctors for my son, they told me that there was an increased risk that my son would react the same way that I did. They asked if I wanted to leave the MMR entirely, if I wanted to separate his vaccinations so that he had some then and the rest later (or never if that’s what I decided) or whether I just wanted to do it now and then monitor him carefully.

      I think it depends on your relationship with your Doctors and also the questions you’re asking.

      • Sue

        Also, febrile convulsions tend to be familial, and respond to the fever itself, not the source of the fever. So, convulsions are less likely from the vax than from measles infection.

    • Azuran

      Then ask those question to your doctor, you are totally free to do so. If your Doctor is not willing to answer your questions, maybe you want a different one, not necessarily because of his stance of vaccine, but because any proper doctor should answer their patient’s question. I answer every single question my clients ask me.
      But here’s some help.
      Combining vaccines is safer. Because each individual shot carries it’s own risk of anaphylactic shot and vaccine reaction. Combining shots into one also reduces the quantity of other chemicals. Although those are generally harmless at the dose given in vaccine, no one is going to say that giving less is a bad thing. Your immune system is more than able to react to more than 1 pathogen at any time. It has to fight many every single day.

      Yes safety tests are reliable. Not 100% of tests are done by the vaccine manufacturer or pharmaceutical companies. There is also continued monitoring for every single drug or vaccine out there. So people are constantly keeping an eye out for reactions that might have been missed in the safety tests. But then again, the same thing apply to everything. All drugs are primarily tested by the company that made them. All cosmetic products are also primarily tested by the cosmetic company that made them. Same thing with medical equipment, cars, baby furniture, cleaning products etc.

      People who are being brushed off are those who come in with their pre-concepted idea that vaccines are dangerous. They are not asking legitimate questions, are not engaging in discussion and from the beginning, they don’t have an open mind. Nothing will change their minds.

    • Azuran

      Also, you might have missed it, since you are not a regular of this blog. But this piece is actually a satire of the BFHI and the way they push breastfeeding, It’s not an actual pro-vaxxer piece.
      The ‘who cares what they think’ is not Dr. Tuteur’s view on vaccination. It’s a representation of the view of lactivists who think that everyone should breastfeed and that the feelings of the mother are not relevant in the decision.

    • Heidi

      Occasionally, we’ve had someone post under the guise of just wanting things clarified about vaccine safety. One particular poster comes to mind, a fellow who called himself Barzini. Everyone posted facts and evidence to him and initially most people were nice to him. He claimed he was really scared of vaccines because of the aluminum adjuvant. His dishonesty really came to light when asking him if he would get his children vaccinated with vaccines that didn’t include any aluminum compound since all vaccines do NOT include aluminum compounds. Hell no, he still wasn’t getting his children any vaccines. He was planning to attack from the very beginning. In fact, when I posted something to him, which only included information, no judgement or snark, and he exclaimed he didn’t even know who I was, as if it’s totally inappropriate to respond to someone on a public forum.

      I can’t speak for all doctors. I’m sure there are some that brush off patients’ and parents’ concerns when all they needed was clarification but it’s not all of them. It’s not any of my doctors. Heck, I was going to the Walgreen’s clinic on my own accord to get the flu vaccine and the nurse practitioner explained everything in super detail as if I was wary of it. I just kind of wanted to be jabbed and to be out of there.

      I have my doubts the anti-vaxxers who visit here had any intent other than to attack. The ones that parachuted in on this post were never to be heard from again. TMR sent them here only to fill her blog comment section with pathetic, factless, namecalling remarks. Maybe Dr. Amy’s approach doesn’t work for everyone. No approach will, though. Personally, I found Dr. Amy because I was researching the validity of “The Business of Being Born.” I believed that documentary at one point in my life. Personally, I have way more respect for her style than someone who was trying to be reeeeal nice and not hurt my feelings.

    • Sue

      I’ve seen people post here (and many other science-based sites) who initially present as “genuinely concerned” and “not anti-vax, just wanting safer vaccines” but, when presented with detailed evidence of safety and efficacy, retreat back to anti-vax positions, and won’t accept the anwers.

      I can imagine that, if “concerned parents” repeatedly question their immunisation provider but won’t accept their explanations, the relationship could break down.

      Just the same as if you consulted your lawyer or your motor mechanic but tried to tell them how to do their job – it can become frustrating.

  • Dan Bland

    So please tell everyone here what is causing the autism epidemic and don’t say better diagnostic methods because that does not account for the numbers seen on this meme. Autism diagnoses continue to rise and if you people don’t wise up and QUIT GOOSE STEPPING with your government the word catastrophe will be an understatement. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e0926ddb6b8f55fbdf613032d8c3af5c97587e78b38eb093826e1d6b0629221.jpg

    • shay simmons

      Actually, changes to the diagnosis do account for the numbers.

      “A new study suggests that changes to autism diagnosis criteria may be more to blame for rising rates of the developmental disorder than anything else.

      Since the 1960s, autism prevalence rates have skyrocketed from 4 in 10,000 children to a current reported rate of 1 in 88. The reason behind the rise, however, has remained unclear.

      Now researchers are shedding new light on the trend by applying current diagnostic criteria to data from a 1980s study on autism prevalence in what’s believed to be a first-of-its-kind analysis.

      The original study, published in 1989, looked at hundreds of Utah residents ages 3 to 25 who were suspected to have autism. Clinicians used DSM-III criteria to assess individuals as “diagnosed autistic” or “diagnosed not autistic” and ultimately found an autism prevalence rate of 4 in 10,000 in Utah at that time.

      But when a research team from the University of Utah applied current diagnostic criteria from the DSM-IV-TR to records from participants in the two-decades-old study, they found that most who were deemed to be autism-free at that time would receive the label today.

      “Autism Surge Due To Diagnostic Changes, Analysis Finds” by Shaun Heasley at https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2012/06/29/autism-surge-analysis/15957/

      • Dan Bland
        • shay simmons

          If you read the actual study instead of Dwoskin’s article, the conclusion states: “This study suggests diagnostic substitution cannot fully explain increased PDD prevalence during the 1990s within the United States.”

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26528457

          The Utah study (and one conducted in Denmark), if you bothered to read it, does not claim the rate is due solely to diagnostic changes. Both studies make a very good case that diagnostic changes have played a large part.

          http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/1919642

          And these reported rates will continue to fluctuate as diagnostic and reporting criteria change. The rate was affected in 2013 by changes to the DSM and again in 2015 when the CDC modified the questions asked in their survey.

          But hey — this is hard. “Vaccines did it” is easy.

          Edited to add: PDD includes but is not limited to autism.

          • Dan Bland

            I’m 66 years old and never knew anyone with autism and had never even heard of it until the movie “Rainman”. Better diagnostic methods may have accounted for a tiny portion of the increase in autism but anyone would have to be a lame brain that thinks autism isn’t skyrocketing.

          • shay simmons

            I’m 61 and never realized that I knew people with autism until about ten years ago when I began working in Public Health. It was then I was introduced to the staggeringly ignorant cult of the anti-vaxxers and started reading up on the subject.

          • Azuran

            Oh, obviously, if YOU hadn’t seen an autistic person, clearly that mean there wasn’t any.
            You know what? I’m 27, I have personally encountered 3 autistic people in my life.
            One is actually my mother’s 55 years old cousin.
            My best friend’s 19 years old sister, who was unvaccinated before she was diagnosed with Autism.
            And one time, a client at my job brought is 18 years old autistic son for his dog’s vaccine appointment.
            On a side note, I also have 1 client with phocomelia who is roughly around the same age as my mom’s cousin

            So, based on my own personnel observation of the world. Autism rates have only doubled between roughly 1960 and 2000. There is also NO WAY that the rate of autism is 1/68. Since my own observations do not come to such a high number.
            And the rate of phocomelia in the 1960s also appear to be exactly the same at the rate of autism was.

          • Heidi

            So? I’m 32. I only know of one person that I can confirm has autism. I probably know more people with autism but they don’t wear a label that says “AUTISTIC!”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’m pushing 50, and can point to at least three people I knew in my my class or the one behind me (40 kids total) that might be classified as on the spectrum these days. Back then, they were just sent to special ed school, or were considered among the LD, or called just plain weird.

          • MaineJen

            Are…are you for real? The sum total of your knowledge about autism is from the movie Rainman?

            You do know there are varying degrees of severity, don’t you? As well as more advanced diagnostic criteria. Those kids who (ahem) 60 years ago would have simply been labeled “lazy,” “delinquent” or even “retarded” may have been learning disabled or autistic, but no one knew what those words meant 60 years ago.

            I myself have known 2 people with autism…one was fairly severe, one was Aspergers. The severe one was diagnosed as a child, back in the 80s, as his symptoms were obvious. The Aspergers person was actually a colleague of mine; he was a little more direct/blunt than the average person, but once you learned to take that into account, he is one of the smartest people I’ve ever known. And a good friend.

            Broaden your horizons, Dan.

          • Dan Bland

            If you think my sum total knowledge of autism is from that movie then you need to pay attention. I’ve been commenting on this blog or whatever it is for 3 days.

          • MaineJen

            Apologies, I’ve been in and out of here during the past 3 days and I don’t pretend to have read all of your “contributions.” But from your comment above, it sounded like you were saying you never knew anyone with autism in all your 66 years, at least not until after you saw the movie Rainman.

            You are certainly not a scientist or researcher, and you don’t know anyone with autism. From what authority DO you speak?

          • Who?

            So only what you have personally seen or experienced exists?

            Interesting.

          • Sue

            “Dan” is 66 years old and there are many things he has never heard of – like the scientific method.

      • Dan Bland

        And the numbers keep increasing so I guess the diagnosis just keeps getting better and better huh?

        • shay simmons

          Citation needed for numbers keep increasing.

          • Dan Bland
          • shay simmons

            That’s a meme. No wonder you think the Vaxxed people “did their research,” if that’s what you call evidence.

          • Dan Bland

            Ok bud row you tell me what the numbers are?

          • shay simmons

            You’re unclear on the burden of proof, aren’t you? In a scientific debate, the person who makes an extraordinary claim has to pony up the evidence.

            Edited to add: by evidence, confirmed numbers up to and including 2015. With sources (“somebody on YouTube” is not a source).

          • Dan Bland

            I think you know what the numbers are. Any source will tell you how fast the epidemic is growing and it will continue to grow until you naysayers understand what the true causes are and I don’t blame it all on vaccines but they are a major piece of the puzzle and that piece will continue to become more significant as the numbers of vaccines, doses and boosters grow on “the schedule”.

          • shay simmons

            You are unable to provide any corroboration for your claim…just so we’re clear.

            Thanks. You’re running quite true to form.

          • Dan Bland
          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            And that tells us absolutely nothing about the cause. At least Nick’s graph is showing a correlation with something else.

          • shay simmons

            Years 2010 through 2015? My goodness me…CDC statistics (same source as your graph) says that autism prevalence has plateau’d.

            https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

          • Dan Bland

            Wow your CDC page says developmental disabilities are increasing too. Heck in 50 years American adults will be non functional because most Americans today believe everything your government tells you.

          • shay simmons

            Are you saying developmental disabilities are not increasing? Source?

            You also seem to think that no one is actively investigating possible causes for autism. Again, the CDC source is https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

            “Studies have shown that among identical twins, if one child has ASD, then the other will be affected about 36-95% of the time. In non-identical twins, if one child has ASD, then the other is affected about 0-31% of the time. [1-4]

            Parents who have a child with ASD have a 2%–18% chance of having a second child who is also affected.[5,6]

            ASD tends to occur more often in people who have certain genetic or chromosomal conditions. About 10% of children with autism are also identified as having Down syndrome, fragile X syndrome, tuberous sclerosis, or other genetic and chromosomal disorders.[7-10]

            Children born to older parents are at a higher risk for having ASD. [Read summary]

            A small percentage of children who are born prematurely or with low birth weight are at greater risk for having ASD. [Read summary]

            ASD commonly co-occurs with other developmental, psychiatric, neurologic, chromosomal, and genetic diagnoses. The co-occurrence of one or more non-ASD developmental diagnoses is 83%. The co-occurrence of one or more psychiatric diagnoses is 10%. [Read summary]”

          • Dan Bland

            No. I’m not. I’m saying autism and other developmental disorders are increasing. Most autism prevalence graphs show no plateau. They show exponential growth.

          • shay simmons

            The only graph you’ve shown stops at 2010.

            Edited to add: I think you believe “exponentially” is the same as “dramatically.” It’s not.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve never understood this line of thought. What good does any government gain, on any level, from having a nonfunctional citizenry?

          • Dan Bland

            Autoimmune diseases are increasing too.

          • shay simmons

            And are also being investigated.

          • Mike Stevens

            So are alien abductions increasing.

          • momofone

            “I think you know what the numbers are.”

            I’d say they have a much better grasp of “the numbers” than you do, with your speculation and your refusal to provide proof you claim to have.

          • Dan Bland

            Who? Who is they?

          • momofone

            Shay Simmons.

          • Azuran

            Wow, paranoid much

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i believe that is well established

          • shay simmons

            I’m a she, not that it matters 😉

          • momofone

            🙂 Thanks! I thought so but didn’t want to presume.

          • shay simmons

            It really shouldn’t surprise me that someone reads my profile, sees “Marine” and jumps to conclusions. I guess no one ever makes it as far as “knitter,” which is a whole ‘nother stereotype. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/251f766359a1ff06c2ec737f66a8a8b0c68461215327deb8388ffa828522aa37.jpg

        • Azuran

          And if it’s vaccines, why do the number keep increasing? It should have stabilized.

        • Sue

          Actually, the rise is levelling off.

          Anti-vax numpties don’t seem to get non-linear relationships.

    • Azuran

      Nice number, but even IF vaccines where the cause, how would you explain this kind of increase?
      Why are kids born in 2013 suddenly twice as likely to be autistic as those born in 2009? What changed between 2009 and 2013?
      Why are those born in 2009 twice as likely to be autistic as those born in 2001. What changed between those dates?
      And even between 1970 and 1975, What changed to cause this change?

      See, if vaccine where the cause, then there would be changes in the vaccine schedule to account for the constant change in rate.
      If the vaccine schedule stay the same, the rate of autism should stay the same, it wouldn’t raise like that.

      For example, we know cigarette cause cancer. Your risks of lung cancer is relative to your smoking habit.
      Take any group of smokers with a relatively similar smoking habit in any time, if the cigarettes are the same, the rate of cancer would be about the same. It’s not going to double every 5 years or so for no reason.

    • RudyTooty

      Oooh a meme!

    • Nick Sanders
    • Mike Stevens

      We’ve had 2015.
      So what was it then?

    • Sue
    • StephanieJR

      Call me a jerk, a bitch, or whatever the fuck you want, I have a thick enough skin, unlike you, you ableist piece of excrement. My rabbit eats shit and is a better than you. You’re dumber than an ant and I wish your father had used a condom.

      • Dan Bland

        Welcome to the blacklist

        • StephanieJR

          Hooray, I always wanted that! Best Christmas ever!

  • shay simmons

    I think #11 should be: “Employ no staff who do not support vaccination, and who do not vaccinate themselves and their families (MEs excepted).”

  • Dan Bland

    Here is the trailer for the movie VAXXED. All of you need to watch it and the full length documentary. It’s very obvious the government and media are trying their best to discredit it. The VAXXED team has been traveling around the country in a bus since the release of the movie and have gotten thousand of signatures of vaccine injured victims and of course most of these are ASD and these are the ones that the government refuses to compensate. I stand with these families.

    https://youtu.be/EdCU2DfMBpU

    • Azuran

      Oh yea, thousands of people signed, that’s definite proof. Because nothing is more scientifically accurate than asking parents if they think vaccine is the cause of their kid’s autism. That’s how science work.

      Hey, My dog hasn’t had any epileptic episode since I adopted him and vaccinated him. Clearly the vaccine stopped his epilepsy!!!! (And this statement is 100% as credible as all those parents who signed the vaxxed whatever)

      • Dan Bland

        Have you heard any of the testimonies of these parents? Have you? I’ve listened to at least 50. They all say the say thing. Immediately after vaccinations their child screams bloody murder for hours, they have seizures, fevers, horrendous bowel movements. They always take them to the ER where they always hear the same story. The vaccine didn’t do it. The baby will get better. But the baby doesn’t get better and as time passes the infant regresses until some specialist at a later time finally diagnoses ASD.
        I stand with those families.

        • shay simmons

          And often their testimony is mistaken. Read the Cedillo and Hooker decisions — what the families saw and what actually happened were not in the same grid square.

          • Dan Bland

            Thousands of parents can’t be wrong. They were with the children 24/7. Most doctors are still skeptical about vaccines causing autism but that’s going to change because now those thousands of parents have tens of thousands of citizens supporting them.

          • shay simmons

            Thousands of parents can’t be wrong.

            Actually, they can.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So if thousands of parents believed autism was the result of alien abduction that would make them right?

          • Dan Bland

            This deserves no response. You people are heartless.

          • shay simmons

            Supporting someone in a delusion an act of kindness?

          • Azuran

            Just realistic. People with grief are always trying to find a culprit. But it doesn’t mean they are right and it’s wrong to just give them a blank card about it.
            Yea, they are suffering, but it’s not because of the vaccine.

          • Jonathan Graham

            If they WERE claiming that it was aliens. Would we be equally heartless for not taking their ideas seriously?

          • Azuran

            Thousands of parents can ABSOLUTELY be wrong.
            The entire planet used to think that the earth was flat and that the sun went around the earth.

          • Nick Sanders

            Thousands of parents can’t be wrong.

            But millions can? Because even among laypeople, most people don’t think vaccines cause autism.

          • Sue

            “Thousands of parents can’t be wrong.”

            But essentially all the world’s GPs, pediatricians, immunologists, public health experts, infectious diseases experts, early childhood nurses and neonatologists can?

            Wow!

        • Azuran

          As much as I understand their pain for their children, Testimonies are not science.
          That same ‘thing’ they say is the thing that all anti-vaxxers say. It didn’t come out of a vaccum, they are not unbiased, their testimonies have been distorted by the anti-vaxxer propaganda.

        • RudyTooty

          Testimonials are very powerful tools; they’re compelling. That’s why every infomercial out there uses testimonies to peddle their ‘miracle’ diet pills and wonder copper bracelets.

          I understand why you, and other people, are moved by testimonials. We can be, and are, blinded by our own experiences. It is actually very easy for us to believe what we see before us. And it is very easy to be swayed by testimonials.

          That doesn’t mean we’re correct, only that we think we are.

    • shay simmons
    • MaineJen

      *snicker*

  • Jean massey

    When the manufacturers take full responsibility for any adverse events and advertise exactly what these may be expected truthfully —also publish the double blind scientific studies that prove their safety— I would consider the benifits of vaccination right now I do not trust you— the negative spin re breast feeding is contemptible

    • Who?

      Name me one product in the world that meets those requirements.

      By far the most dangerous thing any of us do on a daily basis is get in a private car and drive/be driven. Do car manufacturers come close to the standards you would set for vaccine manufacturers?

      Your inability to recognise satire is just a little embarrassing for you, btw.

    • Azuran

      Funny, my vaccine manufacturer actually take full responsibility. They pay 100% of the cost of any ‘possible’ vaccine reaction. I don’t even need to prove that it’s a vaccine reaction. Basically anything that happens in the 48h after a shot is given is covered. They pay treatment for car sick dogs who vomit in the car after their shot, because it ‘could’ be because of the vaccine. They even pay my emergency fees if the ‘reaction’ occurs outside of my open hours.

      If anything, you should be happy that the government has made the vaccine court. Because they are probably far more lenient than any vaccine company would be and give financial compensation way more easily. What would you prefer, going in a court system made by your government to make things more easy for normal people, or having to pay out of pocket to take a giant company to court?
      But here’s the thing, do you also expect ALL adverse reaction to ALL medications to be covered by the manufacturers?

      As for advertising what these adverse event could be. Hello!!!! Vaccine insert. You people love these so much. Every single proven or highly suspected possible vaccine reaction is on there. If there is something you ‘think’ is a vaccine injury and isn’t on there, it’s because there are no valid proof that it is a vaccine injury.

      As for the double blind scientific studies: Not ethical. As it would need children to be given placebo vaccines, putting them at risks of infection and death. BUT you can find those in animal research.

    • shay simmons

      I take it you don’t take any medications, OTC or otherwise?

    • Nick Sanders

      So, you’re saying that you trust them right now?

    • Sue

      I wonder if Jean massey ever gets in a motor vehicle, or eats a meal, without a written guarantee that the manufacturer will take 100% responsibility for any adverse event.

  • A

    Amy Tuteur has clearly not read the manufacturers packaging inserts not is familiar with the right to informed consent of a medical procedure. This is truly the bitchiest thing I’ve ever read about shaming Mothers. Here’s my thoughts (and my kid is vaccinated)
    1. Your policy should also ensure they are up to date on manufacturers risks not just CDC benefits.
    2. Your policy as a DR. Should ALWAYS be to put informed consent of medical procedures ahead of your practice’s agenda.
    3. All pregnant women should know that the manufacturers have not tested vaccination on pregnant or BFing mothers and recommends not vaccinating pregnant or breastfeeding women. THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDA AGAINST IT!!!!!
    4. Vaccines schedules are “recommendations” they are not law. Ladies, do not ever sign a “contract” stating you’re putting your kids at risk – especially since you are not putting them at any more or less risk whether you do or don’t vaccinate.
    5. Vaccine consultants – great, another billable hour. I’d rather have a patient advocate who is familiar with the US constitution.
    6. Key word “recommended”. Read the inserts before you have your child so you can give real informed consent.
    7. If the Mother wants to vaccinate
    8. Do not accept no? It’s not any of your business. If she says yes, give the vaccine. If she says no, drop the subject.
    9. Yes, if it has been requested.
    10. Because Parents of NB have time for support groups?

    You are a terrible example for proVaxxr’s

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
    • Azuran

      You put too much credit on the manufacturer, because you obviously lack any kind of real knowledge on how medicine and drug approval works.
      When a Pharmaceutical company wants to get a medication/vaccine approved, they get it approved for one specific use at one specific dosage and that’s the accreditation use it has. That’s what they are required to do. And then they put the medication/vaccine for sale, with the accredited use written on their insert. But that doesn’t mean that it’s the only possible use or way of using the medication.
      However, the manufacturers are requires to put their approved use, and nothing else.

      Here’s a concrete example.
      Im my work, I use Clavaseptin: It’s manufacturer approved uses are:
      -12.5mg/Kg twice daily for 7 days in dog for treatment of parodontal disese
      -12.5Mg/Kg twice daily for 7-14 days in cats for treatment of skin infection
      Clavamox, which is the exact same antibiotic yet recommends slightly different dosage. They also say the medication should never be used more than 30 days.

      Real live usage of both clavaseptin and clavamox are actually very different.
      Any dermatologist would lose his mind at using 12.5mg/Kg for 7-14 days for a skin infection. They recommend a minimum of 22mg/Kg for a minimum of 3 weeks, often as much as 6-8 weeks for deep skin infection.
      Bone infection also require a higher dosage for a minimum of 6-8 weeks.
      It’s also regularly used for the treatment of respiratory infection.
      And this despite the fact that the manufacturer recommends against this. Yet doing this isn’t malpractice, it’s proper practice of medicine.

      It doesn’t really matter that the manufacturers recommend against vaccinating pregnant women. It only means that they themselves didn’t test for it when they got their vaccine approved. After a drug or vaccine is approved, other people do more testing of different possible usage, and new recommendations or various possible use are found.
      But those do not change the accreditation of the medication/vaccine and are not shown on the manufacturers recommendation. In order to change those recommendation, the manufacturers themselves would need to do their own research on the subject and go through the accreditation process again. Something they have no actual need to do.
      Doctors don’t limit themselves to ‘manufacturer recommendation’ to decide how they should use a medication or what treatment they should give. They have access to vastly more up to date and adequate information.

  • Dan Bland

    If there is anyone here with an open mind you can hear Dr William Thompson’s voice in this video. He is highly remorseful for putting so many children at risk since the publishing of fraudulent data. Please listen.

    https://youtu.be/iTLEc3Jvtok

    • Chris Preston

      The trouble with Dr William Thompson’s voice in that video is that the audio comes from taped telephone conversations with Brian Hooker and has been edited by Hooker and Wakefield. We really can have no certainty that the audio in that clip represents exactly what Thompson thinks.

      Strangely, nothing has been heard from William Thompson since he issued this statement in August 2014, where he wrote:

      “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

      which I certainly agree with.

      • Dan Bland

        Too many of you are totally brainwashed and incapable of independent reasoning.

        • Chris Preston

          Too many of you are totally brainwashed and incapable of independent reasoning.

          That is probably a result of my research being done among the scientific literature and your’s being done on facebook and youtube.

      • Dan Bland

        Thanks for watching. But after reading your cooment maybe you need to watch it again

        • shay simmons

          Why does Thompson never appear in Vaxxed?

  • Amazed

    OT: Happy dancing in my house! Last Tuesday, I had a few bracket-y thingies changed and my TDaP booster, so I spent last week utterly miserable. Today, I have a normal use of my teeth and my arm has gone down to its normal size. I hate those first few days. I hate the fact that everyone around me has just some swelling in the arm for a day or two. I turn green with envy. And I’m supposed to have some sensitivity in my mouth for a day or two. I wish!

    However, I don’t refuse my vaccines or dental procedures because of that.

    • Mike Stevens

      When I get a shot, my son celebrates my status by punching me repeatedly in the deltoid region.
      I am thinking of asking if my next flu shot can be given into my bum.

      • Dan Bland

        There are more payouts from the VICP from flu shots than any other. FYI

        • Mike Stevens

          So? There are more flu shots given than any other vaccine.
          It’s pretty safe, I’m not worried.

      • Amazed

        I am due to have some blood drawn tomorrow. I was seriously considering asking them to do it after my usual waking time (which is about noon), provided that I haven’t had breakfast but I figured they wouldn’t be keen on the idea since it’s well after the appointed hours.

        One plus for the shots: you can go whenever you want.

  • Dan Bland
    • Azuran

      Yea……..So it’s the responsibility of the Doctor (you know, the ones who SEE the patients and give the vaccine) to inform patients of the risks.
      That’s basically the same thing for every medication I prescribe. It’s MY job to inform the owners, not the company who makes the drugs.
      For example, if I go do a parachute jump, it’s the freaking job of the parachuting instructor to tell me of the risks, not the job of the company that made the parachute.

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        *Snort* my kid’s peds office gave me papers explaining the risks for every vaccine she got today. They’re identical to the ones we got 2 months ago, including the flu which was a first for her but we got her brother’s flu shot the same day and they received the same version. AND they checked to see if I wanted to discuss any of it. Again.

    • shay simmons

      “The law permits them the right to not disclose known risks..”

      And yet, your lot waves those package inserts around like a flag.

      • Dan Bland

        How much is Merck paying you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself supporting an industry that has injured millions of children and has paid their lobbyists to make laws making them immune to lawsuits. These families with autistic children can’t even be compensated by the government so Merck has injured their child rendering them handicapped for life and they are left to care for them without any extra help from anyone. Again you ought to be ashamed of yourself supporting Merck instead of these families.

        • shay simmons

          Read my profile, Dan — you pay me. BTW, Merck is only one of dozens of pharmaceutical companies that produce vaccines, which makes you as believable as the anti-GMO nuts who use “Monsanto!” as their war-cry.

          Downvoted and flagged for shill accusation.

        • Azuran

          Oh, here comes the paid shill accusation.
          How much is Wakefield paying you?

  • stepho1
  • Dan Bland

    Here’s a brave Congressman explaining the fraudulent research at the CDC involving vaccines and autism.

    https://youtu.be/stYPSJIKwxQ

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Congressmen blathering about stuff they know nothing about doesn’t make them brave. Or do you also think women can “shut down” the process of procreation so they will not carry a rapist’s child?

      • Dan Bland

        He’s blathering about a whistleblower who is a SCIENTIST that knows more than you ever will. Why do you have to be so condescending? Is that how Merck instructed you to act when they put you on the payroll?

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          Nonsense. I instruct Merck, for I am the Empress.

          • Amazed

            Your magnificent majesty never ceases to amaze me!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Thank you, you get extra truffles in your stocking this year

          • Amazed

            I think I got them two weeks ago or so. I was told I was about to translate a historical novel I was hoping for next year. Thought you’d appreciate it, being a history teacher when you need to relax from the burden of reigning over an empire or something.

        • MaineJen

          Oh oh! We have a shill accusation!

          I call BINGO

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            We prefer Iguana People to Lizard Overlords

          • MaineJen

            I, for one, welcome our robot overlords.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My young grandduke -has- been pretending to be a robot off and on all day.

          • Dan Bland

            I have no idea what this person is talking about.

          • MaineJen

            That does not surprise me.

        • FallsAngel

          Thompson is a PhD psychologist. His JOB TITLE was “senior scientist” at the CDC. Still is, I guess. I believe he’s still employed there.

        • shay simmons

          Flagged and reported for shill accusation.

    • Nick Sanders
    • Mike Stevens

      Any explanation as to why Posey lied about what Thompson said?

      Here is what Posey claims Thompson said:
      ” I kept hard copies of all my documents in my office and I retained all the associated computer files. I believe we intentionally withheld controversial findings from the final draft of the Pediatrics paper.”

      This is what Thompson said:
      “I kept hard copies of all my documents in my office and I retained all the associated computer files. This included all the Word files (agendas and manuscript drafts), Excel files with analysis and results, and SAS files that I used to generate the statistical findings. I also kept all my written notes from meetings. All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today. I believe we intentionally withheld controversial findings from the final draft of the Pediatrics paper.”

      So why did Posey lie?

      • Dan Bland

        Why didn’t you embolden that last sentence?

        • Mike Stevens

          Because that was one sentence that Thompson did say.
          He was labouring under a misconception, and aggrieved that he had been shown to be wrong in his initial analysis.

          I bolded the bit that Posey deliberately left out (ie lied about) in his little rant before congress.

      • Dan Bland

        And you can bet your bippie it wasn’t the scientists that trashed that data it was their superiors that forced them to trash the data.

        • Mike Stevens

          The data wasn’t trashed. All of it remained on the CDC servers.

          • Dan Bland

            The data was trashed. Thompson was the only one that saved the data.

          • Mike Stevens

            Funny, because this is what Thompson said:
            “I kept hard copies of all my documents in my office and I retained all the associated computer files. This included all the Word files (agendas and manuscript drafts), Excel files with analysis and results, and SAS files that I used to generate the statistical findings. I also kept all my written notes from meetings. All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today.”

            Are you accusing Thompson of being a liar?

          • Dan Bland

            Are you?

          • Mike Stevens

            No, I think Thompson clearly spoke the truth when he said all the relevant research files remain on the CDC servers.
            But you are the one who suggests he was lying about this. I wonder what makes you think that?

          • Dan Bland

            Why did a US Congressman say they threw all the data away in a big trash can? In any event William Thompson is highly remorseful for his part in this. His exact words are, “I have great shame now”. Do you not believe him when he says this?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because he was trying to hype his story. Congressmen are not unassailable bastions of truth.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I am wondering, did Posey get his information directly from Thompson or was it filtered through someone else promoting the agenda?

          • Nick Sanders

            I think he got it through Hooker, but I’m not absolutely sure.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            That was my suspicion.

            In the end, you don’t even need to accuse Posey of being the liar, although it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch.

            “Are you suggesting that the congressman is lying?” “Yes, yes I am”

          • shay simmons

            The data was given to Brian Hooker by the CDC when Hooker requested it. It’s the same data he used in his (since-retracted) re-analysis of the Thompson et al study.

    • FallsAngel

      LOL, brave. Posey is a poseur.

    • shay simmons

      If he’s so brave, why did all of the Thompson documents sit in his office for two years, until two pro-science advocates – Matt Carey and Dorit Reiss – requested them and put them out on the Internet for everyone to see?

  • Dan Bland

    This pediatrician explains why you should avoid the Hep b vaccine.
    https://youtu.be/Mq2MeHDatzM

  • Dan Bland
    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Oooh, there are a group of “health experts” who are anti-vaccine!

      Just like there is a group of “scientists” who are climate change deniers.

      And there is a group of “scientists” who are creationists.

      Why do you cranks all use the same garbage? With millions of health experts in the world, we are supposed to be impressed because you found a few dozen who share your lunacy?

      You know what groups speak the truth about vaccines? The AMA, the AAP, the CDC, the FDA, the NIH, the Fraternal Order of Toxicologists (whatever they are called), the American Immunogy Society (or whatever it’s called). the WHO, and every other real, professional organizations. They aren’t just random Facebook groups.

      • Dan Bland

        What’s a crank? Lunacy ..what’s that? Most of the groups you mention rely on research from the CDC which has been proven to be fraudulent by one of the authors of the study. Should I start calling you some names now? I was a sailor once upon a time and I can really cut loose with some doozies.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          “Proven to be fraudulent”?

          You don’t know what that means.

          • Dan Bland

            When the scientists all sit around a large trashcan and literally throw away the data proving vaccines cause autism means the resulting publication is fraudulent.

            https://youtu.be/stYPSJIKwxQ

          • Nick Sanders
          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So “proven to be fraudulent” by a congressman? What are his scientific credentials, again?

          • Dan Bland

            If you people would pay the least bit of attention maybe we could get somewhere. The congressman is only revealing what the scientists did at the CDC that was fraudulent. Pay attention. Watch the video.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            His version of it, of course.

          • Dan Bland

            The whistleblower’s version. PAY ATTENTION.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            And an alternate version, one that actually reflects reality, is provided in Nick’s link below.

            But hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good propaganda story?

          • Sue

            Cranky old science-deniers who SHOUT and DEMAND ATTENTION are even more annoying than ordinary old science-deniers.

        • Mike Stevens

          If you were a sailor, can I quote my group of “nautical engineers” who can verify that boats cannot float?
          They include journalists, chemists, palaeontologists, and specialists in aero engineering, but oddly enough nobody who does any sailing.

  • Dan Bland

    Let’s see. There’s a lot of folks here calling others stupid, uneducated and other similar adjectives but according to research its people with the most education who are choosing not to vaccinate.

    http://www.seeker.com/anti-vaccination-parents-richer-better-educated-1770662854.html

    • Dave Burke

      >>
      but according to research its people with the most education who are choosing not to vaccinate.
      >>

      This is easily explained by Dunning Kruger Syndrome.

    • Azuran

      But is it people with the most education in relevant fields?
      All the vets I know vaccinate all their pets (and themselves and their kids)
      I’d be ready to bet a lot of money that the large majority of Doctors, pharmacist, epidemiologist, toxicologist and vaccine researcher are also vaccinated and vaccinate their kids.

    • MaineJen

      Perhaps they are not suffering fools gladly today. I know I’m not.

      I work in immunology; I don’t know a single person in my field who doesn’t “believe” in vaccination.

    • FallsAngel

      Over 95% of doctors get a flu shot themselves, as do 90+% of nurses and PAs.
      https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/wr/mm6538a2.htm

      • Dan Bland

        Most are forced to get them or lose their job.

        • MaineJen

          Yes, if they’re not vaccinated they risk passing the flu to any immunosuppressed patients. Do try and keep up.

        • Azuran

          You should go out and actually ask them how many of them didn’t actually want to get it.
          And still, No veterinarian has any obligation to get vaccinated for anything. Nor do we have any obligation to vaccinate our pets to keep our work.
          So why do we do it?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            (Because you’ve had to take care of a dog with parvo)

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Because, I, the Empress, hath ordered it. Mwahahahahahaha

          • Amazed

            Because you aren’t idiots?

  • Dan Bland

    Here is a good explanation of the fraudulent research at CDC on the vaccine/autism controversy. https://youtu.be/lnS-xJCG6i4

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      YouTube? You’re joking, right?

      • Dan Bland

        It’s a news clip.

        • Nick Sanders

          From some local affiliate. Big whoop. There are dozens if not hundreds of those across the country. The odds that at least one will pick the stupid side of some non-issue, either through sincere lack of knowing better or as a cynical ratings grab, are pretty close to 1.

          • Dan Bland

            It’s local because it’s an Atlanta station speaking about the CDC in Atlanta. The Networks or cable channels that lean way over to the left or right won’t touch this unless they are trying to discredit someone. Hang in there you may understand what’s going on someday.

        • Azuran

          Because the news is ALWAYS a credible source of real, verified information.

      • shay simmons

        At least he didn’t cite Whale To.

    • Sue
  • stepho1

    Good, I am so glad to see so many here who believe in vaccines! There are hundreds in the pipeline. Get ready, set, inject https://www.izsummitpartners.org/content/uploads/2016/05/4aa-1-Cappio-New-Vaccines-on-Horizon.pdf

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      This is a problem? My 6mo just got a series, including flu, this morning and besides the outraged crying, which ceased after a couple minutes, she’s back to her happy little self.

      • stepho1

        When 1 in has a developmental delay, 1 in 10 has ADD/ADHD and 1 in 30 has Autism, at my kids elementary. At the middle school 1 in 40, and at the local high school 1 in 60 and that is with an Autism charter school w/in 2 miles (over 200 kids). You should consider yourself as lucky that your kid is ok, mine was fine until the 18 month shots. Immediately after was treated for viral encephalopathy (ICU for 10 days), and now has the label of Autism.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          Autism and ADD/ADHD are not caused by vaccinations. I’m sorry your kid was sick, but he was already autistic. And my MIL is sorry that she *wasn’t* immune to rubella when she became pregnant with my husband (she is a survivor of childhood cancer, which wiped out her immunity). My husband is blind from birth from it. He had a dozen surgeries to try to fix it before he had his 3rd birthday.

          • stepho1

            No my kid was not already Autistic. 18 month check up, ahead of ALL milestones, speaking in 2/3 word phrase. My child regressed after receiving 9 vaccines in 1 day. Have you ever read a package insert!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Yes. and autism is not a side affect.

          • Dan Bland

            It’s not a side effect on the label now but it will be someday because IT IS A side effect.

          • Charybdis

            Autism. Is. Not. A. Side. Effect. Of, Vaccinations.

            We need Professor Umbridge’s Black Quill so that these folks can write this message until the message sinks in….

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s not what any worthwhile study on the matter has said.

          • Dan Bland

            Again, most of the studies you are calling worthwhile have been proven to be fraudulent.

          • Nick Sanders

            Proven by whom? And how did they prove it?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Robert Kennedy, of course. And he proved it in his article in Rolling Stone.

            Try to keep up, Nick.

          • Azuran

            And Wakefield study wasn’t?

          • Dan Bland

            That’s right. Nothing but governments and corporations destroying the career of a good man. Hopefully you’ll understand what’s going on someday.

          • Azuran

            Yea, I understand that you are delusional.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wakefield. A good man. Excuse me while I laugh until I fall out of my chair.

          • Dan Bland

            Take your humor to the home of an autistic child and see how much they laugh with you.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m autistic.

          • Mike Stevens

            Can you list all these studies, and then the proof they are fraudulent?

          • Dan Bland

            too much time.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            and yet you’ve been responding here off and on all day

          • Mike Stevens

            Is that a “No” then?

          • Dan Bland

            That means you ain’t worth that much of my time because you seem to be unable to understand that vaccines are causing the generation post 1988 to be the most unhealthy generation in this country for many decades.

          • Azuran

            and why would it affect only the generation post 1988? What happened in 1988? we have been vaccinating for a few decades before that.

          • Dan Bland

            There is not only epidemics of autism and autoimmune diseases but GROWING epidemics and they are growing exponentially.

          • Mike Stevens

            For someone who has “turned notifications off” so as not to respond to any comments, and as someone who doesn’t have the time to list all the “fraudulent” provaccine studies, you seem to spend a lot of time responding to peoples’ comments.

          • Dan Bland

            I’ll slowly wean myself off of this.

          • Sue

            I don’t think “Dan” knows what ‘exponential’ means.

          • momofone

            Gee, you’ve had time to post Youtube videos all day long, but posting studies and the proof they’re fraudulent is too time-consuming? I hear bullshit.

          • Nick Sanders

            Damn, hate when I get to the discussion late, post what I think is a smart-ass reply, and then find out someone beat me to it by most of a day. I can’t even blame ninjas, just myself for not reading two more comments down before saying anything.

          • Azuran

            You’d think someone like you, who pretends to be SO educated, would have all the proofs of his claim ready to be shared at a moment’s notice. After all, you are the one who came here.

          • Nick Sanders

            I know I keep a big list of links in a text file on my desktop, and many more in a dedicated bookmark folder.

          • Nick Sanders

            But you have plenty of time to link to youtube videos…

          • moto_librarian

            Encephalitis is a table injury, so you should have been compensated by NVIC if this happened because of the vaccine.

          • stepho1

            Yes, it is a table injury. NO doctor ever told us about the NVICP, I had to find out about it on my own. There is a 3 year window from the date of injury, which we missed

          • moto_librarian

            I don’t believe you. Federal law requires HCPs to distribute vaccine information sheets at the time of vaccination. Every single one of them includes information on the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The link takes you to the one for the MMR. http://www.immunize.org/vis/mmr.pdf

          • moto_librarian

            Funny how that stepho1’s comment disappeared right after I called her bluff…

          • moto_librarian

            You claim that your child was “immediately” in the ICU for ten days after vaccination. I find it mind-boggling that no one would have discussed his recent vaccinations in light of this. I have two children, all of whom have been fully vaccinated and I was given information sheets every single time that listed potential adverse affects, how to report them, etc.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            9 vaccines? Really? Which 9?

            If you knew anything about vaccines you would know that the NUMBER of vaccines is irrelevant. It is the antigens that produce the immune response and the number of antigens is what counts. In the last 30 years, though the number of vaccines has risen, the number of total antigens has FALLEN from around 3000 to around 150.

          • stepho1

            DTaP – formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, aluminum hydroxide, polysorbate 80,
            Fenton medium (containing bovine extract), modified Latham medium
            (derived from bovine casein), modified Stainer-Scholte liquid medium, HibB – aluminum hydroxphosphate sulfate, ethanol, enzymes, phenol, detergent,
            complex fermentation medium, Hep B – aluminum hydroxide, yeast protein, phosphate buffers, sodium
            dihydrogen phosphate dihydrate, FLU – thimerosal, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate, egg proteins, phosphate buffer, Prevnar – casamino acids, yeast, ammonium sulfate, Polysorbate 80, succinate
            buffer, aluminum phosphate, soy peptone broth, Polio -2-phenoxyethanol, formaldehyde, neomycin, streptomycin, polymyxin B,
            monkey kidney cells, Eagle MEM modified medium, calf serum protein,
            Medium 199 Hep A – aluminum hydroxide, amino acid supplement, polysorbate 20, formalin,

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            A vaccine label is not going to list “aluminum hydroxphospate sulfate” and “detergent”

          • stepho1
          • sdsures

            Or monkey kidney cells – do you even know the proper name for “kidney cells”?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Me, no, but then I didn’t know there was a specific name for them and most of the science i took a millenium ago was chemistry.

          • sdsures

            Distinct cell types include:

            Kidney glomerulus parietal cell
            Kidney glomerulus podocyte
            Kidney proximal tubule brush border cell
            Loop of Henle thin segment cell
            Thick ascending limb cell
            Kidney distal tubule cell
            Collecting duct principal cell
            Collecting duct intercalated cell
            Interstitial kidney cells

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
          • Charybdis

            Excellent list of ingredients. Now tell the class what each one is and what its use is.

            And those aren’t all antigens. This gives a lovely description of antigens and immunity.

            http://www.microbiologyinfo.com/antigen-properties-types-and-determinants-of-antigenicity/

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Here are the chemicals in an apple: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f2727fb801a7ec81670bf95dcd340d8a361e45b335c179d32b03391aa7fee58c.jpg

            Do those big words also scare you?

          • N

            n-i-c-o-t-i-n-a-thingy? Oh noooo. That sounds like cigarettes. People, we should stop eating apples, they are like cigarettes!!!! Aaaaarrrghhh!
            Who did this to apples? Conspiracy! Tinfoil hats!

          • Who?

            Tell us now, and tell us truly-you have shares in Big Tinfoil, don’t you?

          • N

            Oh no, you have blown my cover! Now I don’t get anymore pay checks. Aaaahhhh.

          • Mike Stevens

            Those aren’t antigens which stimulate immunity.
            They are chemicals, the vast majority of which are entirely harmless and the remainder are safe in the doses given.
            All chemicals sound scary to those ignorant as to what they are.
            Perhaps you could chill out with a nice cup of tea? Oh no, too many chemicals I guess.

          • Aaron Oakley

            Formaldehyde can be found in food up to ~300 to 400 mg/kg –completely natural. Glutaraldehyde leaves the body quickly as glutaraldehyde and/or its breakdown products.etc etc.

          • Renè

            Glutaraldehyde cannot exist in an aqueous solution as such. Whatever free glutaraldehyde remaining in vaccines has very likely been hydroxylated to glutaric acid.

            Glutaraldehyde leaves the body quickly as glutaraldehyde and/or its breakdown products.etc etc.

            Some of it is decaroxylated and liberated as CO₂ (as was determined in C¹⁴-labeled experiment) and some may be incorporated into glutaryl-coenzyme A.

            But it most certainly doesn’t leave the body as glutaraldehyde.

          • Charybdis

            My brother hit all his milestones early, early talker, complete sentences, etc, then after I was born, he stopped talking and had some regression. He was finally diagnosed with Asperger’s about 10-12 years ago in his late 30’s.

            By your logic, I should be the cause of his autism.

            More people are being diagnosed on the spectrum because understanding of the issue has improved, as have diagnostic tests and symptom criteria. See the delay in my brother’s diagnosis. He was PDD/NOS for YEARS. More kids are being diagnosed with ADD/ADHD for the same reasons, and the pressure for very young children to be expected to sit still, pay attention and be quiet so that the structured activity planned can happen is HUGE. And autism is present at birth, it is not “caught” or “caused by”. Autism is NOT a side effect or a consequence of anything said, done, eaten, drunk, ingested, injected, inhaled or applied topically.

            Correlation does not equal causation, and package inserts are legal documents, not instructions. Do you read the fine print on every single thing you purchase, agree to, sign, investigate, research, etc?

          • FallsAngel

            You did it!

          • FallsAngel

            9 vaccines at 18 months? Which ones?

          • Mike Stevens

            Good call…

        • Mike Stevens

          I’d consider something in your local environment if I were you, rather than blame interventions which we know do not cause autism.

          Can I ask what your child’s CSF PCR revealed?

        • Mike Stevens

          Yeah, those EMR emissions are a bummer. All that damage… Tut!

        • FallsAngel

          Viral encephalopathy, ie, caused by a virus. Which virus?

          I am sorry for your problems.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      You’re an anti-vaxxer and you’re not going to find much sympathy here.

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        trying to decide if that’s a typo or a pun, but either way, I am amused

      • stepho1

        sympathy, I don’t want your sympathy. You are the one who is going to be very sick after taking all of your vaccines!! If you read the link, ALL 125 new vaccines coming are for the adult population. ENJOY!!

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Did you really read that presentation? There are not vaccines for 125 diseases in the pipeline. There are 16 diseases listed. I, for one, will be super-exicited if they come up with a Hep C vaccine. THings like Ebola vaccines and RSV vaccines and C.Diff vaccines would not be given to the general population.

      • 655321

        Probably not going to find much intellectual honesty here either.

        • Nick Sanders

          Well, if you’d shape up or leave, that would be one more step toward intellectual honesty.

          • 655321

            Lol, says the poster who frequently melts down into temper tantrums.

          • Nick Sanders

            I get cranky when people spam this place with bullshit and ignore the rules of debate. I never claimed to be perfect. But that has nothing to do with my intellectual honesty.

          • 655321

            You get “cranky”? Are you a toddler?

          • Nick Sanders

            No, but I feel like I’m talking to them sometimes…

          • 655321

            Then maybe you try leaving your pack n’ play once in a while.

    • Nick Sanders

      Aw piffle, most of them are in Stage I or Stage II clinical trials, which means that they are very unlikely to go anywhere, statistically speaking. The vast majority of clinical trials at those stages end up dead ending, which is a shame, because I would love to see preventative measures for those diseases. From the chart on the third slide, only four have made it out of testing and into applying for FDA approval so far, and at least two of them are just treatments, not vaccines. The bar graph agrees with only two new vaccines up for approval.

  • Steven LeBlanc

    This is satirical right?
    I mean it must be,no one is this callous except those that are set to gain from the topic at hand.If you believe this garbage you have mental issues!

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      So you can’t rebut it, either. Hardly surprising since it’s true.

  • StephanieJR

    I’ve mentioned it before, but did you know that even ants vaccinate? Really- there’s a horrific zombie fungus that can infect whole colonies. Sometimes, when an infected ant shows up, the other ants groom it and share bits of the fungus. It’s been theorised that they are building up an immunity, so that next time the fungus shows up, they won’t get it (and at some point they kick Ant Zero out, where it gets up high and the fungus grows out of its brain and spores).

    So all the anti-vaxxers are literally stupider than ants. Fucking ants. How moronic must you be that ants are better than you at protecting their health?

  • Rob Bright

    The utter idiocy of this article (and its author) is stupendous. Considering she graduated in 1984 (an Orwellian irony???) I think it’s fair to say she desperately needs to return to school for some upgrading.

    • RudyTooty

      Excellent display of irony, sir!

    • RudyTooty

      Dr Amy discusses Orwell in today’s blog post, I suggest you hop on over and have a read.

      • Rob Bright

        Doesn’t surprise me. Looks like doublespeak and doublethink are both specialties for her.

        • RudyTooty

          Her “doublespeak” and “doublethink” are usually backed by scientific evidence.

          But, you know, believe what you feel is right. I’m sure you are.

          • Rob Bright

            Right. Because we all know doublespeak and doublethink are based on scientific evidence. (I see you’re a practitioner as well…)

          • RudyTooty

            The claims she makes that you call “doublespeak” – oh, for instance… that vaccines prevent more deaths than breastfeeding – are actually based on scientific evidence, not her feelings.

            I’m sorry you missed the meaning the first time. But that’s OK. We’ll keep correcting you. I know you’re trying to understand.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Thanks for helpfully demonstrating the point of my latest post: anti-vaxxers imagine themselves to be educated but they’re actually dumb as rocks.

      http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/12/not-much-thinking-going-on-at-the-thinking-moms-revolution.html

      • Rob Bright

        Back to school with you, you quack.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Wow, impressive retort … NOT.

          • Rob Bright

            Yeah, about as impressive as your lame ad hominem response, you antiscience, luddite.

          • RudyTooty

            Rob, pulling out all the stops!

            Seriously. Try a cogent argument. Or a fact.

          • Rob Bright

            Practice what you preach, Tooty.

          • RudyTooty

            I’m not even sure what the topic is at this point.

          • Charybdis

            That would be anti-science Luddite.

            But correct spelling and grammar seems to be a reach for so many these days.

          • MaineJen

            Aren’t you the one chiding her for graduating in 1984? Such a “clever” reference too. I don’t think you have a grasp of the meaning of ad hominem.

        • moto_librarian

          Ah yes, another Trump voter. Thanks for playing!

  • moto_librarian

    You’re so educated that you don’t even know that vaccines aren’t injected “into the bloodstream” – look up intramuscular and get back t us. Seriously, you are so willfully stupid.

  • momofone

    “My generation all had those “killer” diseases hun, and we are all still here!”

    I have no idea which generation you mean, hun, but I can assure you that my friend whose TWO babies died of pertussis aren’t “all still here!”

  • Sarah

    What the actual fuck! Lady you need to be educated. There are risks to vaccinating. Vaccines can and do harm and kill children. Breastfeeding actually works better than any vaccine at providing the baby with protection and if a baby gets sick a mother will naturally produce antibodies in her breastmilk to help baby fight that virus. It alone provides everything a baby needs to survive the first year of life when it comes to disease protection/ prevention and nourishment.

    • Azuran

      Funny, formula provided me with everything I needed to survive the first year. I also had 0 vaccine preventable disease and was actually a super healthy baby. I was never sick, unlike my breastfed brother who was just ALWAYS sick.

    • momofone

      Sources? Credible ones, please.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      You guys talk like most of my and the boomer generations were bf’d rather than formula fed.

    • Heidi

      Nah, actually by 6 months, that baby really needs an iron source.

      • maidmarian555

        Don’t forget the Vitamin D drops too!

    • RudyTooty

      Laughable. Every part of this, Sarah. Starting with: “you need to be educated.”

      Look toward yourself, first. Start there.

    • Daleth

      Oh lord. Sarah, I wish any of what you say about breastfeeding were true. It doesn’t protect babies against pertussis, measles, mumps, chicken pox, or any other vaccine-preventable disease. Even if mom has antibodies to those diseases–which she doesn’t, unless she’s vaccinated herself or had all those diseases already–they don’t enter her breast milk and they don’t get passed to the baby.

      The only thing breastfeeding protects babies from is diarrhea and vomiting, and even there, it only reduces that by a little bit: BF’d babies on average have one less bout of diarrhea and vomiting in their first year than FF’d babies do.

      I wish what you were saying were true because I assume you have kids that you think you’ve protected by BF’ing them. But you haven’t. They’re just as vulnerable to pertussis, measles, chicken pox, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetanus, etc. as any other unvaccinated kid.

    • Nick Sanders

      if a baby gets sick a mother will naturally produce antibodies in her breastmilk to help baby fight that virus

      How?

      It alone provides everything a baby needs to survive the first year of life when it comes to disease protection/ prevention and nourishment.

      Even if that were true, what about after that first year?

      • Sarah babbled, “…if a baby gets sick a mother will naturally produce antibodies in her breastmilk to help baby fight that virus.”
        Nick Sanders then asked Sarah incredulously, “How?”

        Elementary. Nick.
        Female breasts are “medical intuitives” and just sense the disease in baby through Breasticle ESP and then magically produce the correct antibodies through the power of Mammary Intention™. These magical antibodies are not destroyed by babies digestive system and not absorbed like regular old antibodies would be because, well, they’re magic.

        Ain’t female breasts and breast milk amazing?

    • shay simmons

      It alone provides everything a baby needs to survive the first year of life when it comes to disease protection/ prevention and nourishment.

      I guess that explains why for hundreds of years, exclusively breast-fed, unvaccinated babies died like flies from measles, whooping cough, smallpox, diptheria, flu…

      • N

        If breastfeeding did protect against all those illnesses in the past, what would have been the reason for developing vaccines? Oh, right, just for the money.
        But than, why did my first baby get all those colds and stomach flus? He was breastfed for years. Oh, right, that would be a vaccine injury as he is fully vaccinated according to schedule. See? There is no way out.
        Even my granny got Alzheimers apparently only because she probably got one or another flu shot during the last 10 years or so.

  • maidmarian555

    Also, if you’re going to go off on an enormous incoherent rant, it won’t make your non-argument any more convincing if you start insulting others and calling them stupid. Calling others dumb doesn’t make you more intelligent sadly. Which you might know if you were even a fraction as well educated as you’re pretending to be. (Top tip: Googling anti-vax nonsense isn’t really an education in any conventional sense either)

  • maidmarian555

    You are the one who is misinformed and by spreading these lies you are part of a problem that will directly result in the death and permanent injury of vulnerable people. The affects of vaccine preventable disease are many and well documented. Just because you personally didn’t die from one doesn’t make that fact any less true.

  • R

    How do you sleep at night?

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      pretty good, except when I have an illness. Fortunately, measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, tetnus, pertussis, and polio won’t be one of the illnesses that wake me or my kids up at night.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Why would I have any trouble sleeping. I’m not as uneducated and gullible as you.

      • 655321

        I suspect you get this question fairly often.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          she does get a lot of trolls here

  • Azuran

    Ah survivor biases. Of course 100 of those who had childhood disease and all still alive have survived. Because those who died are dead you idiot.
    My grandmother had a cousin who died from Polio. But she’s can’t tell you that, because she’s dead.

    • kilda

      right, it’s like saying World War II happened and we’re all still here! So clearly wars aren’t actually deadly.

      • Azuran

        Yea, I mean, all the WWII veterans have survived it. Not one of them died.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    The dead people aren’t still here, are they?

  • Heidi

    Oh, Karen, hun, you don’t have to inject an apple with aluminum or formaldehyde. An apple contains them NATURALLY, silly! Do you *even* do your research on the fruit you eat? Gah!

  • kilda

    ah, those manmade synthetic elements, aluminum and mercury.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Fusion is very hard to achieve.

  • Barb
    • kfunk937

      “In 2011 Shoenfeld and Agmon-Levin proposed a new syndrome as a way
      of grouping together a range of emerging autoimmune diseases with
      possible adjuvant-associated causes, Autoimmune/Auto-inflammatory
      Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants (ASIA). At present, there is no evidence
      to suggest that ASIA syndrome is a viable explanation for unusual
      autoimmune diseases. Since the initial paper, over 80 publications have
      discussed ASIA. This systematic review examines the research that has
      been done to investigate whether ASIA is a broad umbrella term with
      little clinical significance, or whether there is some underlying
      mechanism which could be utilised to reduce the occurrence of adjuvant
      mediated disease. Twenty-seven animal, epidemiological and case studies
      were reviewed. Unfortunately, a robust animal model of ASIA using
      biologically relevant doses of adjuvants has yet to be defined. It is
      also apparent that the broadness of the current ASIA criteria lack
      stringency and, as a result, very few cases of autoimmune disease could
      be excluded from a diagnosis of ASIA. The current studies involving
      human cases are so diverse, in both external stimuli and in resulting
      conditions, that there is currently a lack of reproducible evidence for
      any consistent relationship between adjuvant and autoimmune condition.”

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794485

      In other words, there’s a very small working group promoting this idea that has never gained any scientific consensus. It’s time to go back to the drawing board.

      • Dan Bland

        The guy you’re discrediting is known as the one of the world’s leading authorities on autoimmune diseases.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Your logical fallacy is “argument from authority.” Try again.

    • Nick Sanders

      Autism is not a demyelinating disorder. Nor do vaccines cause demyelination or autism.

  • Mommy Theorist

    There’s a typo in this drivel.

    • moto_librarian

      Yeah, I’ve noticed a lot of typos from the thinking moms camp.

  • I don’t think it is wise to compare vaccination to breastfeeding. It’s too divisive. Breastfeeding is good. Vaccinating is good. Feeding infants formula is good. There is no need to be divisive.

  • Dan Bland

    The media and government continue to lie to the public about the dangers of vaccines. Whenever proof is brought forward they try their best to discredit it as in this case,
    https://youtu.be/bNoL46dU4Vk

  • JYo

    You are insane. This blog post is absolutely ridiculous. Breastfeeding isn’t meant to save lives, it’s meant to provide nourishment for babies. Aside from that, it’s a bit tyrannical of you to even suggest suppressing people’s right to speak out against vaccinations, which are filled with harmful ingredients that have been proven to cause neurological issues, among other things. And, public shaming? I mean, really? Millions of parents in the United States, over the past few decades, have stopped vaccinating their children. So, you want to shame a growing amount of people who have a different way of thinking? These people see the problem with injecting too many vaccines into their babies and know that the diseases themselves aren’t as bad as they’re made out to be.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      says someone who likely doesn’t know the agony of seeing cataracts in their newborn’s eyes. My mother-in-law still feels horrible about catching german measles 41 years ago

    • Azuran

      The piece itself is actually somewhat a satire about the way breast milk is promoted in baby friendly hospital. And using vaccination as an analogy to paint how stupid it sounds. Not actually a piece about mandatory vaccination or suppressing people’s right.

      • RudyTooty

        I know, the satirical part really needs to be s-p-e-l-l-e-d o-u-t for these ‘thinking’ moms.

    • Prudence Dagg

      It does read a bit like satire, but the pressure to vaccinate is so intense (and Skeptical OB is so anti-natural in everything I’ve seen her write), it’s hard to know.

      • Nick Sanders

        She’s not anti-natural, she’s anti-useless risk. Many so called “natural” practices just happen to be made of nothing but useless risk with no upside.

    • moto_librarian

      The diseases are only less bad because of the advances of modern medicine. Fewer people die when they get a VPD in this country because of advanced care (ICUs, ventilators, medications, etc.). It’s unbelievably naive to think that these diseases aren’t serious.

    • RudyTooty

      Insane: I do not think this word means what you think it means.

  • Dan Bland

    I’ve already turned off notifications and probably won’t come round much anymore but here’s some articles for you to read.
    https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/220807175/126-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link

    • kfunk937

      So now blogger and “media consultant” Ginger Taylor is up to 126 now? Oh, my.

      124 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine-Autism Link. Or Not.

      Vaccines and Autism: A thorough review of the evidence.

      124 papers that DO NOT prove vaccines cause autism.

      You guys should really at least get your running total straight.

      • Dan Bland
        • kfunk937

          Vaxxed is the epitome of propaganda and autism is not brain damage. Why not try some reality for a change?

          • Prudence Dagg

            Autism is not brain damage…wow…I guess you haven’t had the care of someone who also had seizures, adult diapers, and/ or rages and aggression (screaming fits, etc.) due to autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m guessing you haven’t either.

          • StephanieJR

            Fuck you, ableist asshole, and every single one of your awful cohorts.

          • Dan Bland

            The epitome of propaganda has been governments for hundreds of years and YOUR government has been caught lying about the vaccine/autism subject at least 3 times. VAXXED has no reason to lie. The government and Merck make their decisions based on the hundreds of billions of dollars at stake.

          • Nick Sanders

            How much money do you think Vaxxed is making for the people in it? Because it certainly wasn’t done as an act of charity.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Wouldn’t they make more money from the diseases than the vaccines?

          • Dan Bland

            Now you’re on the right trail. But they make money from the vaccines then they make more money from over 100 autoimmune diseases. Think about how much money a type 1 diabetic spends his entire life.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            except vaccines do not cause diabetes

          • Dan Bland

            Old Reports, New Evidence of Vaccine Connection – Doctors started making reports in the medical literature as early as 1949 that some children injected with pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine (now part of the DPT or DTaP shot) were having trouble maintaining normal glucose levels in their blood. Lab research has confirmed that pertussis vaccine can cause diabetes in mice.

            As diabetes research progressed in the 1960’s, 70’s and 80’s, there were observations that viral infections may be a co-factor in causing diabetes. The introduction of live virus vaccines, such as live MMR vaccine which is made from weakened forms of the live measles, mumps and rubella viruses, has raised questions about whether live vaccine virus could by a co-factor in causing chronic diseases such as diabetes.

            One virus, the rubella virus, has already been shown to be associated with diabetes. Babies infected with the rubella virus in their mother’s womb, who are born with congenitally acquired rubella syndrome, often develop Type I diabetes. One 1980 study concluded that rubella virus can infect pancreatic islet cells and that the infection can severely reduce levels of secreted insulin. Another study in the 1980’s demonstrated that, after live rubella vaccination, the rubella virus can persist in the body of a vaccinated person for many years.

            Like rubella, mumps disease has been strongly associated with the development of Type 1 diabetes. Like the rubella virus, the mumps virus can infect pancreatic islet cells. And like the live rubella vaccine, there are persistent reports in the medical literature that some children develop diabetes after receiving live mumps vaccine.

            An accumulation of scientific research today suggests that Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease. Autoimmunity is created when the immune system malfunctions and attacks its own body. Genetic predisposition and environmental factors (such as a viral infection) are thought to be co-factors in the development of autoimmune disease, including diabetes.

            Because a vaccine artificially manipulates the immune system in order to make it act as if it has recovered from and is immune to a particular disease, some scientists are investigating whether vaccination can be a co-factor in the development of autoimmune diseases like diabetes. This research is particularly important for individuals who may have a genetic predisposition to autoimmunity, such as those with a family history of autoimmune disease.
            http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Diabetes/juvenilediabetes.aspx

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Type 1 is inherited. Kids are now able to live long enough to become parents and diabetic women to carry to term. Their kids are also more likely to get it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Autism isn’t an autoimmune disease…

          • shay simmons

            Everything’s an autoimmune disease to these idiots.

          • Azuran

            And again, why would my government, which pays for health care, be in this stupid conspiracy with the pharmaceutical companies? What’s in it for them? They pay for people to get the vaccines, and then pay for the treatment of people who get vaccine reaction? That’s madness. If vaccine were as dangerous as you claim they are, and if they caused as many illnesses as you claim they do, there is no way the pharmaceutical company would be able to give enough money from the vaccine to give back to the government to make up for it.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not nearly as much as someone who needs lifelong care due to paralysis from polio.

            Your claim is nonsensical on its face. If you expect anyone to do anything besides laugh at your prattling, you must provide the actual economic analysis. I’ll be waiting to see your math.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Are you the Dan Bland who is a 9/11 truther?

          • Dan Bland

            You bet your bippie I am and if you start a debate about that here you’ll regret it.

          • Azuran

            Well then, this settles how unhinged and unworthy of our time you are.

          • Dan Bland

            Ok but Muslim terrorists DID NOT make the THREE TOWERS collapse on 9/11.

          • Azuran

            And yet at the same time, I suspect that you do consider Muslims in general to be dangerous and generally supportive of terrorist and support a Muslim registry and a ban on Muslim immigration.

          • Dan Bland

            You have no idea who I am so don’t go telling me what I support.

          • Azuran

            And yet, you did not say I was wrong.
            But doesn’t matter, you are still a totally unhinged conspiracy theorist.

          • Dan Bland

            Thanks

          • Azuran

            And you still didn’t say I was wrong.

          • MaineJen

            Oh my god we’ve got a live one, folks!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I would no more argue with you about that than I would argue with people who believe in UFOs.

          • Mike Stevens

            Are you threatening the owner of this blog, 9/11 troofer?

          • Dan Bland

            No, why do you get so many no’s.

          • Mike Stevens

            Because I ask questions you cannot answer, that’s why.

          • Dan Bland

            When I say “regret it” I mean you will LOSE that debate with this TWOOFER.

          • shay simmons

            Crank magnetism at its finest.

          • Mike Stevens

            Commonest cause for type 1 diabetes is a viral infection in childhood.
            Vaccines could sort much of that out.

          • Dan Bland

            Vaccines have not only viral DNA but a lot of other stuff too including HUMAN FETAL TISSUE. Many of the ingredients of vaccines could be causing the immune system to be confused to the point of attacking the body it is suppose to be protecting.

          • Mike Stevens

            Vaccines contain human fetal tissue in the same sense that apple juice contains compost and earth worms.

          • Dan Bland

            Bottoms up

          • Mike Stevens

            As a doc with an immunology postgrad doctorate, I don’t recognise your claim there are over 100 autoimmune diseases from vaccination.
            There aren’t even 100 autoimmune diseases that commonly affect humans.

          • Dan Bland

            Quick search produced this but I have seen other sources say over 100.
            Depending on the type, an autoimmune disease can affect one or many different types of body tissue. It can also cause abnormal organ growth and changes in organ function. There are as many as 80 types of autoimmune diseases. Many of them have similar symptoms, which makes them very difficult to diagnose.Jul 22, 2015

          • Mike Stevens

            I know what autoimmune diseases do, thanks.
            How many are there?

          • Azuran

            ‘quick search’ Yea, that’s how research works.

          • shay simmons
          • FallsAngel

            That’s a good one.

    • 128 papers that don’t really say vaccines don’t cause autism. Did you read them? Any of them?

      • 655321

        Again, you can’t find what you’re not looking for. Even your statement itself is vague, “…papers that don’t really say..”-Not exactly scientific or compelling.

        • If they are looking at large populations of children with autism and not seeing 240% more autism in African Americans, then that is compelling evidence.

          • 655321

            You’ll have to ask Dr.Thompson, because Congress for some reason will not. He is one of the former CDC researchers who is claiming the CDC has committed fraud.

          • Dr Thompson is not the one who came up with the 240% statistic. That came from Brian Hooker, in his now-retracted paper wherein he did a poor analysis of the data. Because this is not his field. We’ve come full circle. The idea that there is more autism in African American boys is bogus.

          • 655321

            There are multiple former CDC researchers accusing the CDC of committing fraud.

          • No, there are not.

          • 655321

            Only someone with a financial interest in pushing your narrative would try to put a spin(or outright lie as you have just done) on former CDC researchers accusing the CDC of committing fraud.

          • I have no financial interest in anything related to vaccines. I just like to prove antivaxers wrong.

          • 655321

            How do you prove someone wrong by outright lying?

        • Read the papers in that list. None of them demonstrate vaccines cause autism.

          • 655321

            Any of the papers on that detail studies of vaccinated groups against non-vaccinated groups?

          • You posted a list of papers supposedly proving a point and you obviously read none of them. Do you own work. Don’t expect me to do it for you.

          • 655321

            ?? What list of papers did I post?

          • Good lord, read the whole thread. Dan B posted a link to a list of 138 papers. I commented on that. You then commented back. Why the heck are you commenting at all if you are not following what we are chatting about. We are chatting about the scribd link Dan B posted.

          • 655321

            You made a false claim, I corrected it. You are the one with the problem following the thread.

          • 655321

            You posted “You posted a list of papers supposedly proving a point and you obviously read none of them” which is either a lie or a mistake. You are the one who needs to follow the thread.

          • Ah, yes, I see, Dan posted the link, you merely commented on it. My apologies.

    • kfunk937

      So much for sticking the flounce.

    • Nick Sanders
    • MaineJen

      Promises, promises

  • Researching Mom

    You are an absolute danger to children. “Parents who vaccinate love their children more”? Wow!
    Class action lawsuit filed by doctors against Merck because of them falsifying efficacy data of MMR-II:
    http://freepdfhosting.com/24cea13c07.pdf

    Whistleblower lawsuit against Merck re: MMR:

    http://www.law360.com/articles/574389/antitrust-fca-claims-on-merck-mumps-vaccine-to-advance

    “Law360, Philadelphia (September 5, 2014, 6:12 PM ET) — Two lawsuits accusing Merck & Co. Inc. of lying about the efficacy of its mumps inoculation in order to keep competitors from bringing their own versions of the vaccine to market will move forward, after a Pennsylvania federal judge ruled in favor of whistleblowers and direct purchasers Thursday.”

    http://ahrp.org/former-merck-scientists-sue-merck-alleging-mmr-vaccine-efficacy-fraud/

    http://freepdfhosting.com/627a82b5ea.pdf

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-270B-2044

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      And how does that change the fact that vaccines save far more lives than breastfeeding. Oh, right; it doesn’t.

    • kfunk937

      No evidence in the Merck case has been presented to date. This post by a prominent law professor is much more recent, updated and thorough. The least you could do is to read it, before recycling the same nonsense.

  • maidmarian555

    Seriously, these people are contemptible monsters. There’s not much that makes me *actually* rage online (I mean I despair, but it doesn’t make me angry) but these people are potentially murdering babies at the alter of their anti-Vaxxed God. I am horrified.

    • Dan Bland

      You’re also misinformed

      • maidmarian555

        By whom? I have seen the actual effects of VPD. Please explain to me how I managed to invent in my own head due to misinformation how deaf my own fucking cousin is a a direct result of maternal measles.

        • Prudence Dagg

          Where did you see such effects? Have you done medical work overseas? The last measles death in the U.S. was over a decade ago. Since 1979, most cases of polio have been caused *by* the vaccine (not wild poliovirus). Like measles, mumps and chickenpox are almost always mild (though I did have mumps at 15, and it was unpleasant…6 days after receiving the MMR vaccine. What a funny coincidence).

      • RudyTooty

        Why do I LOL every time you post something?

        • Dan Bland

          Because you’re delirious.

          • RudyTooty

            Oh, I thought it was because you’re ridiculous.

  • Dan Bland

    Please listen to this brand man speak the truth about vaccines and fraud at the CDC. https://youtu.be/d–3q9PP3mA

    • FallsAngel

      Kennedy probably hasn’t taken a science class since high school. He has no idea what he’s talking about.

      • Dan Bland

        Are you scared to watch the video?

        • RudyTooty

          You’re funny.

        • FallsAngel

          I’ve read enough about Kennedy’s ideas to know I have better things to do with my time, like clean my toilet.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Do you think we don’t know who Robert Kennedy, Jr is, and what his claims are? Why do we need to watch the stupid video, his nonsense is available to see all over, and has been for years (didn’t he start with a big article in Time?)

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Rolling Stone. They retracted it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How bad does something need to be to get retracted from Rolling Friggin Stone?

    • Azuran

      Look, he’s talking in front of a microphone and he’s wearing a tie, which means that everything he is saying MUST be true.

    • Nick Sanders

      Old bullshit is old.

  • Dan Bland

    Please listen to this brave man speak the truth about vaccines and fraud at the CDC. https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

  • Jane Jones

    RUN from this “Dr” and this stupid, dangerous advice—RUN!!!

    • FallsAngel

      The current recommendation is a Tdap with each pregnancy. I’d RUN from a doc who didn’t recommend it! CDC, the ACOG and the American College of Nurse-Midwives ALL recommend this.
      https://www.cdc.gov/features/tdap-in-pregnancy/

      • RudyTooty

        More herbs and homeopathy. Go for it.

        • FallsAngel

          What nonsense!

          • RudyTooty

            Oh my gosh, it’s getting so disorienting around here! I thought you were agreeing with the previous poster and saying everyone should run from any group of people recommending Tdap. So very sorry.

            Lots of CDC conspiracy theorizing going on today. Forgive me for not reading more carefully.

            The delusion here today is thick, and I’m getting a little confused.

          • FallsAngel

            No prob. I thought you were anti-vax, and actually recommending herbs and homeopathy! So we’re even. My apologies as well.

          • RudyTooty

            I’m recommending them to idiots (ahem “thinkers”) who disagree science-based medicine. Herbs and homeopathy for everything that ails them: diabetes, stroke, prematurity, bone fractures, infection, hypertension, everything.

            If they’re going to hold scientific medicine in contempt, then they don’t get to use it. Use the bullshit. Use it away. Throw in some crystals and Reiki, too.

          • FallsAngel

            Great idea!

          • N

            homeopathy for bone fractures?? I would rather recommend skelegro. Wouldn’t you?

          • RudyTooty

            Skelegro. Is this some alternative medicine BS I haven’t heard of yet, because I’m misinformed? Sheesh.

            I’d rather stay ignorant, if you don’t mind.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Harry Potter magic potion, used to regrow bones in the Potter books

          • RudyTooty

            I’ve been outed as someone who hasn’t read Harry Potter!

          • Azuran

            But is magic ‘natural’ and ‘GMO free’?

          • N

            Potions are not vegan, that’s sure. For natural and GMO, I don’t know.

    • RudyTooty

      Hey, Thinking Moms!

      YOU CAME HERE. TO HER BLOG.

      Run: I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  • Warrior_Mama

    Honey, you are off the rails. This I particularly liked:

    Wait, what? Some mothers think that vaccination harms their infants? Who
    cares what they think? Public health officials have spoken on the issue
    of vaccination and mother’s observations of their own infants are
    irrelevant.

    Even if you believe in vaccinations as a parent, the above should concern you, very much.

    NO is such a powerful word. I use it often. Get infomed, people.

    • moto_librarian

      Then you won’t mind hearing us say “no” when you want to enroll your unvaccinated children in public school.

      • Warrior_Mama

        Good luck.

        • moto_librarian

          Will you also say “no” when your child gets whooping cough and needs evidence-based medical care to recover?

          • Simone Doggone

            Most whooping cough outbreaks are in the fully vaccinated.

          • maidmarian555

            Your really have no understanding or grasp of percentages, do you? The reason that outbreaks occur in larger numbers in vaccinated individuals is because MORE PEOPLE ARE VACCINATED. It’s a percentage game, particularly when so many people are vaccinated against diseases where the vaccines aren’t 100% efficient. What is undesputed is that if you aren’t vaccinated, you are raising the risks of becoming infected and spreading disease. By such enormous percentage margins that you should personally feel shame at how much risk you pose to the vulnerable within our society.

          • RudyTooty

            Penn & Teller explained this quite well.

            And they’re not scientists, so they should be legitimate sources for these “thinking” people.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No they aren’t. What’s the risk of getting pertussis if you are fully vaccinated? What’s the risk of getting pertussis if you are not vaccinated?

          • Amazed

            Dr Amy, you’re such a MEANIE! Old and senile as well.

            Now, get real. You’re dealing with people who basically overlap with the homebirthing idiots. 1 in 200 (deaths in breech birth) is not the same as 5 in 1000 at all since you’ll need 1000 breech babies to get this death rate, remember?

            You think they actually understand percentages?

          • sdsures

            Perhaps Simone is referring to babies who contract pertussis because they are too young to receive the vaccine, or their mothers did not get either the vaccine or the booster when they were pregnant? Dr Amy has written about and linked to many stories from parents whose babies have died from pertussis at a very young age.

            I’m not siding with Simone, merely pointing out a possible explanation for her reasoning. I don’t know who is more likely to get pertussis, but I and my family are UTD with all our jabs and plan to stay that way.

          • Azuran

            Let’s just do a basic math here to show you how stupid you are.
            You talked about the mumps vaccine being only 85% effective.
            So let’s say we have a random population of 100 person with a 90% vaccination rate.
            out of the entire population,
            -10 are not immune because they are not vaccinated
            -90 are vaccinated, 76 are immune, 14 are not.
            So yea, in absolute number, more vaccinated people are susceptible. However, while they represent 90% of the entire population, they represent only 58% of the susceptible people. While unvaccinated people, while only being 10% of the population, represent 42% of the susceptible people.
            Absolute numbers are meaningless in cases like this. You have to look at the proportion, it’s clear that unvaccinated people are responsible for a much bigger part of those epidemics.

          • Researching Mom

            Class action lawsuit filed by doctors against Merck because of them falsifying efficacy data of MMR-II:
            http://freepdfhosting.com/24cea13c07.pdf

            Whistleblower lawsuit against Merck re: MMR:

            http://www.law360.com/articles/574389/antitrust-fca-claims-on-merck-mumps-vaccine-to-advance

            “Law360, Philadelphia (September 5, 2014, 6:12 PM ET) — Two lawsuits accusing Merck & Co. Inc. of lying about the efficacy of its mumps inoculation in order to keep competitors from bringing their own versions of the vaccine to market will move forward, after a Pennsylvania federal judge ruled in favor of whistleblowers and direct purchasers Thursday.”

            http://ahrp.org/former-merck-scientists-sue-merck-alleging-mmr-vaccine-efficacy-fraud/

            http://freepdfhosting.com/627a82b5ea.pdf

            http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-270B-2044

          • Azuran

            So? Vaccine manufacturers where shown to be lying and declared guilty.
            You’d think that if there was a vaccine conspiracy, they would have gotten away with it.
            No one here is arguing that pharmaceutical companies are saints. But vaccines as a whole have been tested, proven safe and effective and have had clearly observable positive effects.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Most people who die in car accidents are sober. That just shows that drunk driving is not dangerous, right?

          • Nick Sanders

            No, most CASES are in the fully vaccinated. Most OUTBREAKS are in areas of lowered vaccination rates.

          • RudyTooty

            Homeopathy. It works on the same scientific principles as their arguments.

        • Nick Sanders

          It’s already happening, and more states will be following suit.

    • Linden

      I am informed. That is why my baby had all his vaccinations.
      You see, I’m not someone who thinks calling herself Warrior_Mama will somehow actually protect my child from vaccine preventable diseases.

      • Bugsy

        Me too. I debating not vaccinated my first son based on fears from the anecdotes I’d been reading online. I did myself a favour and decided I needed to get truly educated – took a class in epidemiology. I was stunned by how much I was letting my fear get in the way of doing what would truly keep him healthy. Both of my kids are 100% up-to-date and will remain that way.

      • Warrior_Mama

        IF you think your child is truly protected, then you are uninformed. And you’ve made your choice. Congratulations.

    • Nick Sanders

      Why should it concern me?

  • Susan Cosgrove

    Really?

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      I know, right? So many random people terrified of the largely imaginary “injuries” from vaccines have wandered into this 2 month old post to tell us all about how foolish we are.

      • Jane Jones

        There is absolutely nothing “Imaginary” about vaccine damage!!! It is REAL!!!

        • Azuran

          and there is nothing imaginary about death and permanent sequels from vaccine preventable diseases.
          The only difference it: Vaccine injury is MUCH less likely to happen

          • kfunk937

            And there is no fund to compensate those harmed by vaccine-preventable diseases.

        • Amazed

          The risk is real, that’s right. At a rate that is multitude of times smaller than the rate of the simple challenges of everyday life.

          You should be happy to keep your kids in their bubble and not place them at the much greater risk of leaving the house, riding in your car and so on. Why do you WANT schools to accept your kids anyway?

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          Oh, autism and ecsema are real but they ain’t caused by vaccines.

        • momofone

          Well, I wasn’t convinced, but then you used ALL CAPS, so I know it must be true.

        • Nick Sanders

          The fact that vaccines have rare negative effects, just like all medicines is real. However, most of the harm attributed to vaccines by charlatans and the lay people they have duped is completely imaginary. Look no further than the person on this page claiming vaccines cause demyelination for a perfect example.

  • Moishe Kahan

    Quackery of the year award winner

  • L. G.

    Wait, what? You’re nuts! You should be ashamed to be in the medical profession. Medicine is about PEOPLE, not profits.

    • moto_librarian

      You should be ashamed for not knowing that Dr. Tuteur is retired.

      • Warrior_Mama

        Then she’s gone senile, honey.

        • moto_librarian

          Do you have any accomplishments beyond birth and breastfeeding?

          • Amazed

            Of course not. She got a pair of working boobs and the proud claim to be a Thinking Mom. That simply erases the need of having brains to do thinking with. Good for her since she doesn’t own them,

    • FallsAngel

      Who’s talking about profits?

    • Nick Sanders

      Exactly. Which is why vaccines are so important. They save people better than pretty much anything else.

  • Nothippyjusthealthy

    The more controversy that she creates, the more she gets paid! Stay away from her troll casting and that will shut her down. Good bye!

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Let me post the link to this pro-vax site on my antivax Facebook page so that all my flying monkeys descend. Then let me complain that the owner of the provax site is being a troll, because she’s posting on the page that she owns. Then let me bitch about how my minions are giving her clicks and money.

      Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you a “Thinking Mom”!

      • Bugsy

        Where’s the “applaud” emoji when I need it?

    • RudyTooty

      Funny thing, she’s not controversial.

      Hurting your feelings is not controversial.

  • Adrian Lombardini

    There’s a special place in hell for people like you, Skeptical OB. Fortunately the tide has turned and your whole criminal industry will start to come down very soon.

    • moto_librarian

      That’s the other thing about the Trump mentality. It’s not enough to win (not that I think that you are, btw); the other side must be punished.

    • RudyTooty

      Like I said, only homeopathy and herbs for these people from here on out. K?

  • AnnT

    “Be Your Own Kind Of Mother”? Is that still allowed in California? And then her video says she wants women to push back against industries that are trying to monetize and goes on to talk about natural parenting organizations that invoke guilt to monetize?? How do others monetize from breastfeeding? She says you don’t need to feel guilty about using formula (which people have to purchase btw). “No one knows better than a mother,” she says. I guess she hasn’t talked to Paul Offit or Richard Pan. “Push back against anyone who tells you they know better than you.” I agree, but the twisted logic is pretty astounding. Does she realize the billions that vaccine-makers stand to make on vaccines that can’t possibly work on babies that can’t yet produce antibodies?

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Babies can’t produce antibodies? Citation, please.

    • Azuran

      Babies are 100% capable of producing antibodies from the moment they are born.
      They are even capable of doing so BEFORE their birth.

    • moto_librarian

      Some antibodies are passed to babies in utero via the placenta. Do you have any idea of just how ignorant you are?

    • swbarnes2

      How do you monetize breastfeeding? Selling pumps, selling supplements, selling books, selling nursing pillows, selling nursing-friendly clothes, selling consults.

      No one here is opposed to helping women who wish to breastfeed getting what they need, but it’s naive to pretend everyone is volunteering all of this out of the goodness of their hearts. An LC stands to make a lot more money selling her expertise and supplements and books to a woman endlessly struggling with breastfeeding than she will make if she says “Sounds like breastfeeding isn’t working out for you. Keep it up if you like, but your baby needs to be partially if not totally formula-fed.”

      And moron, vaccines DO work, which proves that babies DO make antibodies. As a trivial example, Hep B rates have dropped a lot more in the US than in Britain. Because we give Hep B vaccines to all newborns, Britain tries (and apparently is failing) at identifying who really needs one, so only some newborns get them.

  • moto_librarian

    I’m so glad that the “thinking” moms are parachuting in to illustrate how our country managed to elect an incompetent moron president. As Dr. Amy noted in a much more recent post, you illustrate the Trump mentality perfectly. Truth and facts are totally irrelevant. We have ample data showing the efficacy and safety of vaccines, but you don’t care. Only your feelings matter, your oh-so wise “mommy instincts.” At the same time, you are so self-absorbed and shallow that you don’t care about whether or not your uninformed opinions cause real harm. You certainly don’t care about strangers, but I would argue that you don’t even really care all that much about your own children. If you did, you would surely vaccinate them rather than expose them to the suffering and complications of VPDs like the measles and whooping cough.

    • Dan Bland

      There is no such thing as herd immunity. I’m almost 66 years old and most of the people my age are highly unvaccinated. So for the government to mandate vaccines on all kids won’t do a bit of good because of all of us dangerous old folks walking around. I’d like to see them try and mandate vaccines on my generation. That would be the funniest sight in the world.

      • moto_librarian

        So…you never had the measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, etc.? And even if you did, you do understand that your natural immunity decreases with time, making you susceptible to these illnesses. That’s why adults get boosters.

        • Dan Bland

          Vaccine protection (not immunity) fades much faster than natural immunity. That’s why they have boosters.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How much immunity to dead people have?

          • moto_librarian

            Explain shingles.

          • Mike Stevens

            Tell me how durable is natural immunity to tetanus, or typhoid, or pertussis if you would be so kind.
            I’m here to help if you get stuck on the science.

          • Dan Bland

            You tell me

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            I’ll tell you. There is NO natural immunity to tetanus. Natural immunity to pertussis lasts about 5-12 years, about the same as the vaccine.

          • Dan Bland

            Have you ever known anyone with tetanus? I know a man who almost committed suicide from the mental illness he got from a tetanus shot.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Yes, I have cared for someone with tetanus. What’s your point?

          • Azuran

            I’ve also cared for a dog with tetanus.
            You know, maybe that man you know was just mental ill from the start. Anecdotes are not significant in any way.

          • N
      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        How would YOU know whether herd immunity exists? What is your formal education in immunology, medicine or statistics?

        Imagining you understand vaccines because you read an anti-vax website is like imagining you understand structural engineering because you read House Beautiful.

      • moto_librarian

        I know my parents have had boosters for most of these things, and they had all of those illnesses as kids. My mother still remembers how terrible mumps was.

        • Simone Doggone

          I had the Mumps and it wasn’t pleasant, but came and went, as did my parents and siblings. You may be surprised that many experience Mumps without any symptoms at all ( asympyomatic) Google it. By the way Mumps vaccine claims it is only 85 percent effective, likely less. I was vaccinated and still got it.

          • RudyTooty

            n=1

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Google it. That’s how Thinking Moms do “research.”

          • Simone Doggone

            Primary doc. How many times I have seen doctors googling for their patients. Where do you find a medical journal? On Google then Pub Med etc.

          • moto_librarian

            Only a subset of articles and journals are available in PubMed. We don’t spend millions of dollars to license Elsevier, Wiley, etc., for nothing. As usual, you are ignorant.

          • Simone Doggone

            Well the ones I have read and the many links from scientists and doctors who have seen the light have been very informative.

          • moto_librarian

            Do you know why you can read those articles so easily? Because they couldn’t be published in any reputable venue!

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            No. I find a medical journal in my hospital’s medical library.

          • Simone Doggone

            And much of the information overlaps. In site is a very good site.

          • Mike Stevens

            You say “thinking moms” look to pubmed for their evidence on the Internet?
            Bzzzzz….

          • Azuran

            Oh my, ONLY 85% effective. Now I’m not a math expert. But I’m pretty sure a 15% chance of getting a disease is lower than a >90% chance. And then, IF I get the disease, if everyone around me has a 15% chance of getting it, instead of a >90% chance, it feels like a lot less people are actually going to get sick.

          • moto_librarian

            So? You didn’t get encephalitis, deafness, or meningitis. Congratulations.

          • Simone Doggone

            It is considered a mild childhood illness when kids get it. When adults get it ( which is what is happening now with poor vaccine immunity) it is more severe.

          • Amazed

            A lifetime of sterility is a mild childhood illness?

          • Mike Stevens

            How many adults have had it circa 2015, as opposed to adults who had it circa 1960?

            Hint… A whole lot less.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It is considered a mild childhood illness when kids get it.

            It is mild, expect when it isn’t.

            Hand/foot/mouth disease is also considered mild. However, it was awful for my kids. I’d have loved to have a HFM vaccine, so we could avoid that. Nasty, nasty.

            And still considered “mild”

            Take your “mild” illnesses and shove them up your ass.

          • Mishimoo

            My youngest had HFM a few weeks ago, I really wish we had a vaccine for it! It was a miserable time for us all because he had a mouthful of blisters, didn’t want to eat or drink (thank goodness for chocolate Nesquik), would only sleep on my side of the bed, and wanted to be held most of the day. Mild illness sure, but awful and exhausting nonetheless.

          • N

            A related illness: stomatitis. Imagine the same just worse. For a whole week my little one didn’t eat or drink. Only enough chocolate milk to not needing going to hospital. A whole week of horror and suffering, the worst we ever lived with our three kids! I wished there was a vaccine for that too!
            And two weeks later: HMF!

          • Mishimoo

            Oh no!! 🙁
            A few weeks from HFM for ours, and he has a fever + croup-type cough. Thankfully, his older sisters are fine.

          • N

            Oh no.
            Those must all be vaccine injuries. Our kids would just be healthy if we just breastfed them and did not vaccinate them.

          • Mishimoo

            It’s definitely because we didn’t do the full year of breastfeeding; nevermind what’s actually best for our children. The lactivists have spoken!

          • Who?

            HFM is feral and disgusting. My then 20 year old got it a couple of years ago. Banned from the labs at uni, miserable, spotty, sore. Then her poor boyfriend got it, he was miserably ill.

            I can’t imagine how awful it must be for little ones.

            Lucky Huz and I didn’t get it.

          • Mishimoo

            Your poor daughter and her boyfriend would have been miserable!
            HFM really is terrible. I know it’s mild compared to other things, but it’s still awful and I wish it was preventable. I had it twice as a kid, once when I was too young to remember and the second time when I was old enough to diagnose it myself from the Home Doctor book.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            So’s scarlet fever, yet i’m deaf since i caught it

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            In the meantime, I haven’t had even the unpleasantness of the mumps. Because I am vaccinated.

            You realize the point of vaccination is to avoid getting the disease, because, aside from being unpleasant, the diseases come with risks of additional complications, even permanent.

            I’m happy that my kids are likely to avoid getting the mumps at all, thank you.

      • maidmarian555

        You know what wouldn’t be funny. All of you unvaccinated morons passing on killer diseases like measles to my 7 month old unvaccinated baby.

        • Dan Bland

          Listen lady. I don’t think you understand. Are you saying that this moron is smarter than you? Most baby boomers are unvaccinated. Do you understand that? That’s a lot of people. Millions. And those millions are part of the herd in this country. Do you understand?

          • maidmarian555

            Yes I do. You’ve decided not to take on the minute *risk* of getting vaccinated at the expense of MY BABY. It’s not amusing. That’s a large group of people refusing to take minute risks at the expense of the actual health of small babies. Any baby under 1 yr old risks contracting measles, mumps, rubella et al from YOU. I hope you don’t have grandchildren. Also, baby boomers who so wish can be vaccinated. That’s a thing that responsible boomers actually do, believe it or not. You know, like my auntie with the child that was born deaf through maternal measles.

          • Dan Bland

            Since you vaccinate you might need this someday. https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

          • Amazed

            How low can you go?

            You, sir, are a disgusting pig. A typical anti-vaxxer, gleefully predicting death and disabilities on other people’s children and actively enacting it by pushing their (innocent) disease vectors on the unsuspecting public.

            Let me tell you what your grandchildren’s parents might need one day since they have the bad luck of being related to you or even brainwashed by you.

            https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2317548#

            Do you have the bucks to cough out when one day, leeches like you will be held responsible for the suffering they cause? Because one day, common sense will prevail.

          • Dan Bland

            This compensation program has already paid out over 3 billion and most Americans dont even know it exists. Once they find out, and I’m helping spread the word, the pay out will be much higher. It takes awhile for autoimmune diseases to manifest themselves so most folks have no idea that vaccines caused their maladies. I’m helping spread the word about that too.

          • maidmarian555

            Once again, you are blatantly ignoring the very real risk of injury via vaccine-preventable disease. My cousin is deaf thanks to measles. I went to nursery with a girl who could hear who is now 100% deaf thanks to measles, I know a guy with Parkinson’s who’s been told it’s likely occurred because of the brain damage he incurred as a child running insanely high temperatures because of measles. Nobody is compensating these people because measles is a vaccine-preventable injury. But good job encouraging people to put themselves at risk of these non-compensatable preventable injuries……

          • Mike Stevens

            The NVIC programme has paid out for around 5000 claims in 27 years.
            That’s one claim for every 1,300,000 vaccines given.

            That’s a highly reassuring safety record.

          • Dan Bland

            Most people don’t know about the program. One. Most kids aren’t diagnosed with the many maladies until months or even years after the vaccination so they don’t know the vaccine even caused the malady. I’ve studied this long enough to know that it takes time for an autoimmune disease to manifest itself enough to start showing enough symptoms to be diagnosed. Take for example Type 1 diabetes. It takes time for the immune system to destroy all the beta cells then even more time for sugar levels to get high enough to cause symptoms.

          • Azuran

            And if something as blatantly easy to diagnose as type 1 diabetes was caused by vaccines, it would be extremely easy to prove: Vaccinated children would have it more than unvaccinated children.
            They aren’t. Because one doesn’t cause the other.
            Or are you next going to talk about how vaccines can keep damaging you for 3 generations

          • Mike Stevens

            All persons who get vaccinated are given information about the NVIC – on the vaccine information statement.
            If they don’t bother reading it, that’s their tough luck.

          • maidmarian555

            Still not even acknowledged that vaccine-preventable diseases exist. You are contemptable. Those illnesses cause death and long-term disability.

          • Dan Bland

            There are over 100 autoimmune diseases and vaccine are most likely one of the triggers. These are lifelong maladies with mostly no cures.

          • Azuran

            Proof needed for that one.

          • Dan Bland

            I’ve already given proof.

          • Azuran

            A dude with a tie giving a speech

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            YouTube videos are the highest form of scientific evidence to Thinking Moms. You know that heirarchy of scientific evidence pyramid? For Thinking Moms, YouTube videos are at the top. Above double-blind trials and meta-analysis.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af20aa966d5da42db92a89a8a2466052d77444ee515ce7dab2d893f6da6061ea.png

          • Dan Bland
          • Azuran

            You know what they teach us at school? Beware of textbooks, it takes SO long to write them, that by the time they come out, half of what is in them isn’t accurate anymore.
            Got any actual double blind placebo study on a vaccine showing that those who received the vaccine had a higher rate of a specific disease than those who got the placebo?

          • Dan Bland

            One third of the book is a literature review of peer reviewed papers.
            In light of the discovery of Autoimmune Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants, or ASIA, Vaccines and Autoimmunity explores the role of adjuvants – specifically aluminum in different vaccines – and how they can induce diverse autoimmune clinical manifestations in genetically prone individuals.

            Vaccines and Autoimmunity is divided into three sections; the first contextualizes the role of adjuvants in the framework of autoimmunity, covering the mechanism of action of adjuvants, experimental models of adjuvant induced autoimmune diseases, infections as adjuvants, the Gulf War Syndrome, sick-building syndrome (SBS), safe vaccines, toll-like receptors, TLRS in vaccines, pesticides as adjuvants, oil as adjuvant, mercury, aluminum and autoimmunity. The following section reviews literature on vaccines that have induced autoimmune conditions such as MMR and HBV, among others. The final section covers diseases in which vaccines were known to be the solicitor – for instance, systemic lupus erythematosus – and whether it can be induced by vaccines for MMR, HBV, HCV, and others.

            Edited by leaders in the field, Vaccines and Autoimmunity is an invaluable resource for advanced students and researchers working in pathogenic and epidemiological studies.

          • maidmarian555

            You wanna explain to my deaf cousin how her situation that DEFINITELY happened because of measles is less important than your group of people that ‘might’ have contracted illnesses through vaccines?

          • Karen

            I have a deaf girlfriend. Her mother contracted measles while she was pregnant with her. Vaccines do not prevent people from getting the measles. What aren’t you getting! So are you blaming your Aunt because she didn’t get her shot?

          • maidmarian555

            In the early 50s? Before the NHS was properly established in the UK and healthcare was pretty patchy? No.

          • maidmarian555

            Or my buddy that has Parkinson’s because of the high temperatures he ran whilst SICK WITH MEASLES, why don’t you tell him that his suffering is less important (when the doctors know what caused his illness) than those who *might* have contracted illness from vaccines. I mean, go ahead, tell him his suffering is legitimate.,,,..

          • Karen

            Are you kidding? Parkinson’s disease does NOT come from the measles. It happens in a person who has abnormally low dopamine levels. Generating cells in the substantial nigra part of the brain that dies. Experts don’t know why those cells die. It has nothing to do with high temperature. Your crazy!

          • maidmarian555

            Yeah I guess his doctors just pulled that theory linking the two illnesses out their asses because they’re just paid Big Pharma shills and wanted him to go around telling people so that they’d get their shots….. *eyeroll*

          • Azuran

            So….you are mad that people are given compensation?
            That basically means that both the government and the pharmaceutical companies agree that there are risks, and that they are ready to pay compensation for the very few that where hurt. Because overall, vaccination saves so many lives.

            Why would the governments gets involved to promote ineffective, harmless vaccine and then GIVE MONEY to those who suffered consequences? And what about those country with public healthcare? They even pay for all the medical needs of those people you claim are ‘vaccine injured’

            If it was all a conspiracy, At that point, one of them would have had the brilliant idea of injecting saline. If vaccines are useless, why bother giving vaccines? Just inject saline, it’s way less costly to produce and preserve, with virtually 0 negative effect.

          • Dan Bland

            The pharmaceutical companies paid lobbyists to get congress to make a law so they couldn’t be sued by the vaccine injured. This is a government program paying all these poor people not the corporations who really injured them.

          • Azuran

            You do realize the USA is not the only country in the world, yes? You think the pharmaceutical companies make enough money out of vaccines to bribe every government out there?

          • Dan Bland

            The first MMR was causing meningitis in Canada so its use was canceled there. So the company sent the very same vaccine to the U.K. Under a different name. Same thing happened over there. So guess what the company did then? Sent the same vaccine to Brazil and other developing countries. They don’t care about you. All they care about is the almighty dollar.

          • Azuran

            I never pretended that they care. But hey, look at that, Canada banned a vaccine after it was proven harmful, so did the UK. Why do you think that has changed now?

          • Dan Bland

            Risks of Convulsion and Aseptic Meningitis following Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in the United Kingdom
            http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/6/704.full

          • Azuran

            Again, and?
            They found that one vaccine had a risk they considered to be too great (which was 1/100 000, still lower from your chance of dying of a VPD if vaccines weren’t around) and changed it for a better one.
            Which means that government ARE tracking down vaccine adverse effect and reacting accordingly when problems are found.
            And you think that if there was a link with autism they’d do nothing?

          • maidmarian555

            Urm. How’s that work in the UK then? Or Canada? We have vaccine schedules AND public health care. If the government were deliberately injuring our babies for profit then I guaran-damn-tee you it would be in the papers.

          • Mattie

            also… all the governments? Both the conservatives and labour, countless prime ministers, countless ministers for health. When does this start? Does Big Pharma own Eton and Harrow? Oh the humanity! /snark

          • maidmarian555

            They’re all at it! For apparently completely different reasons. But Big Pharma!! And…..eeerrrr……something…….

          • Azuran

            and both the republican AND the democrat. Because despite the fact that they never agree on anything and can’t ever work together to get shit done. They are both in this vaccine conspiracy cover-up.

          • Karen

            You really are ignorant!! Do you not realize that the pharmaceutical company makes billions and billions of dollars and every 20 years they push more and more vaccines on our children We have the most unhealthiest children today because of the amount if vaccines. Wake up woman!!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            The unhealthiest? Citation please.

          • Amazed

            We have living children. Even if they were the unhealthiest, it would still be better than dead. And it isn’t even true.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Clueless. Antivaxxers lobbied to get that NVIC created to make it easier to get money from vaccine companies. Heck, they don’t even have to prove that the vaccine caused the problem!

          • Karen

            How are those diseases different today than they were 50 years ago? Because doctors/cdc put the fear of God in parents today. For your information…vaccines do NOT prevent you from getting those diseases! You really arent too smart. Its been proven vaccines are INEFFECTIVE. Where do yiy even get your info from?

          • Azuran

            Where are you getting yours?
            The diseases are roughly the same as they were….except that they are gone, due to vaccination.
            Only childhood disease I got was CP, before there was a vaccine. Now weirdly none of my nephew or nieces got it. But my grandmother was left with slight leg deformities from polio. Which is not so bad, could have been worst, she could have died from it like her cousin did.
            I guess it’s also a coincidence then that 99% of the parvo cases I diagnose are in unvaccinated puppies.

          • Mishimoo

            New idea: let’s start locking antivaxxers in the same room as puppies receiving treatment for parvo. It’s not transmittable to humans so there’s no risk of them catching it, but they’ll certainly be pretty miserable because there is nothing quite like the smell or sight of a room full of parvo-infected puppies.

            (I’m joking, I’d never do that to the poor puppies)

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How would you know what vaccines do or do not do? What’s your formal training in immunology? Nothing, right?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            or your information…vaccines do NOT prevent you from getting those diseases!

            Then why don’t we get them anymore?

            Yep, just a coincidence that sanitation always improves right at the same time that vaccines come out.

            What was the big advance in sanitation in the 90s when the rotovirus vaccine came out?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Citation please.

          • Mike Stevens

            Most baby boomers had measles before the vaccine was introduced.
            Those born after the vaccine was available have had it.
            Either way, most people have immunity, either naturally acquired or via vaccination.
            Do you understand?

          • Dan Bland

            I haven’t had the mumps. Do you understand? I haven’t had Rubella. Do you understand?

          • maidmarian555

            Ive had rubella. It was *horrible*. Aside from the rash, I repeatedly vomited all over myself and ran a super-high temperature. I would not wish that disease on my 7month old baby at all.

          • Mike Stevens

            You’ve been vaccinated? Well done!

            Of course, if you haven’t been vaxed, but managed to avoid natural infection so far, then you can thank the protection herd immunity has provided for you. You are also in a small minority of people who have no immunity, either natural or artificial.

          • momofone

            A dear friend of mine had two baby boomer babies who DID die because vaccines weren’t available, and they contracted pertussis. One was her eight-month-old daughter. A year later, her six-week-old son died.

            Do YOU understand?

          • StephanieJR

            That’s so sad!

          • momofone

            It was heartbreaking to hear her talk about it. Her third child, born years later, was fully vaccinated. She never understood why anyone would not do it. It was not hypothetical to her.

          • N

            I had mumps, as in my time there was no vaccine against it. All I know is that my parents were not amused. Not at all. The fever got very high and wouldn’t go down, I wouldn’t take medicine, my throat swell a lot, or something like that… And they were on holidays in the south of Italy, it was very hot and no good doctors available…

          • N

            Just to add, my siblings got the vaccine and no mumps.

        • Bugsy

          Hugs. That was my fear with both of my boys as infants as well. My younger son just had his 1-y-o immunizations done as early as possible…we had them done the day after his birthday. (Would have had them done on his birthday, but it was a Sunday.)

          • maidmarian555

            It’s pretty terrifying. Part of me would like to just keep him indoors until his first birthday but I don’t think becoming total hermits would be very good for us either! The only comfort I can take from this thread is that it would appear the anti-vax movement seems to be much more popular in America than it is here so I’m unlikely to bump into any of these potential disease magnets. It does give me heart palpitations whenever we’re out and strangers lean in his buggy to coo over him though. You just never know.

          • Bugsy

            I completely agree. Whereabouts are you? I’m in Canada, originally from the states – and take comfort in knowing that despite all of the hoopla online, we only know 2 people who have actually declined vax for their kids.

          • maidmarian555

            I’m in the Uk. I know a couple of school friends that are anti-vax but nobody in my immediate circle or my family is. There have been a few (mercifully small) measles outbreaks here in the last couple of years though, there was one this summer at the Glastonbury Festival after some geniuses who apparently knew they had measles decided to attend. Which just shows how irresponsible these people are, they don’t care if they spread these diseases. It’s so scary when you have a small baby.

          • Bugsy

            I completely agree…it’d be one thing if anti-vaxxers completely shut themselves off from society. But the reality is most of them don’t. 🙁

      • Daleth

        Where did you get the idea that most people your age are unvaccinated? You got the shit vaccinated out of you as kids, with everything that was available at the time, and if you weren’t vaccinated against measles it’s because you’d already had the disease.

        You’re in my parents’ generation and when I had preemie twins and told the grandparents they couldn’t visit unless they were vaccinated or otherwise proven immune, it turned out they’d all had measles. They’d also all had every vaccine available when they were young. The only booster any of them needed was pertussis.

        And the vaccines they used in your generation were live viruses quite capable of actually causing the disease, so a single shot protected you for life against most things, unlike the safer vaccines we have these days–today’s vaccines are mostly dead or inactivated viruses, so they have far fewer side effects but they’re also weaker, which is why kids need 2-3 doses for full immunity.

        • Bugsy

          <.. What Daleth said. My parents are the same exact age as you – my mom just turned 66, and my dad is 67 – and everyone they know in their generation is vaccinated. They also ensured I was always UTD on my vaccinations, and instilled their importance in me growing up.

          • Daleth

            Seriously. That was–thanks to vaccines–the last generation in America where VPD were widespread (tens of thousands or more per year) and most people actually knew children who were permanently disabled or killed by them. That’s why parents rushed their kids to get vaccinations the minute they were available.

          • Bugsy

            Yes. And if that weren’t enough to convince me, I had a friend in grad school (also of the older generation) who had polio as a kid. It left him crippled, one leg shorter than the other. Talk about changing someone’s life.

          • StephanieJR

            I watched a documentary on the development of the polio vaccine the other week; it was very interesting, so many kids died before, and everyone wanted it once it was available. Thank Jonas Salk.

        • Dan Bland

          I had measles and chicken pox. I did not have rubella or mumps so you’d better keep your children away from me and most other folks my age. We are part of the herd, their word not mine, so there’s millions of us walking around making you paranoid. You poor thing.

    • RudyTooty

      You know what I want to say to these Trump voters, WITHOUT EXCEPTION: “When you break your leg, or develop diabetes or have a stroke or need any sort of medical attention at all: no science-based medicine for you. No FDA-approved medications. No trained physicians or skilled nursing staff. No sterile technique or accredited facilities.

      Just homeopathy and herbs for you, folks, all of you.

      • Simone Doggone

        As with all medical procedures, people just want a CHOICE. If you want to refuse any medical procedure you need to have the choice to do so without being harassed, threatened to have care with held, coerced or denied entry to school. Just because a healthy person refuses a procedure based on informed consent, should not mean they are refused proper health care.

        • moto_librarian

          Start promoting informed consent about breastfeeding. Then we can talk. Because the amount of misinformation and outright lies about breastmilk is astounding.

        • Azuran

          And people HAVE that choice. Vaccination itself is not mandatory.
          BUT, which choices comes consequences and responsibilities. Which is something the anti-vaxxers have a problem with.
          You refuse to have yourself or your kids vaccinated. That’s your choice, but yea, you might be prevented from getting into certain places. That’s how life in a society works. You can’t have it both way, you can’t have the butter and the money.

          • Simone Doggone

            A healthy preson should never be forced to take anything that openly admits risks, into their body to be able to attend public places. Pretty much the same as mandatory. The healthy person may never come in contact with the illness , nor develop it, nor spread it to others. You have the responsibility to stay home when sick and take care of your body. I agree with quarantines. Money making pharmaceuticals and their pushers; and backers stay out of it. People are letting their fear, and their bodies become a goldmine for those profiting from it, without proper safety studies being done.

          • maidmarian555

            So I should keep my baby indoors until he’s old enough to either be vaccinated or potentially fight off a disease like measles? Because you *choose* not to vaccinate yourself or your kids? Yeah, that seems reasonable. I mean, fuck his social development, right?! It’s somehow *my* responsibility as a mum to deal with your irresponsibility? Thanks for that…….

          • Simone Doggone

            So I should put my child at risk for you? What is the difference? There are plenty of risks to vaccination. Social development? Please at least watch Vaxxed and tell me about social development.

          • maidmarian555

            What *risk* do you claim you’re putting your children at risk of? If you refuse to vaccinate either yourself or your children you put my baby at direct risk of diseases that can cause death. That’s not being disputed here. Why shouldn’t *you* be forced to keep your family indoors when you are making a choice to take that risk on their behalf? Young babies learn and grow socially by being exposed to the world. Why should my son miss out on that opportunity because of *your* choices? (I’ve seen Vaxxed btw. It’s unsubstantiated horseshit).

          • Azuran

            there are not ‘plenty’ of risks. The risks are well known and are very small. The risks of dying or having permanent sequels from vaccines is lower than the risks of diseases themselves.
            And the difference: CHOICE. You made the choice not to take the ‘risk’ of vaccine, so you are the one who had to make the according sacrifices.

          • maidmarian555

            THIS^^

          • moto_librarian

            It’s called the social contract. I know that doesn’t mean anything to a completely self-absorbed person like you, but most of us try to do the decent thing. You really should be thanking us for helping to keep VPDs away from your special snowflakes.

          • maidmarian555

            And apparently some of us give a sh*t about other peoples children too……

          • moto_librarian

            It should bother you that by vaccinating my children, I’m actually doing more to protect your kids than you are.

          • moto_librarian

            I have asked this question and never gotten an answer, but I’ll ask again. What level of evidence would it take for you to accept that vaccines are effective and that the benefits outweigh the risks?

          • Amazed

            You are allowed to attend public places. That’s more than I would have agreed to let you have but fortunately for you and the likes of you, it isn’t my decision to make. You just aren’t allowed to foist your germ vectors and the diseases no one might yet know they’re carrying into specific places. Schools. Be pleased with that.

            I agree with quarantines as well. I would love to quarantine you and the likes of you on a lonely island.

          • Simone Doggone

            10,000 vaccines anyone?

          • Amazed

            What should that mean? I do not frequent the anti-vaxx holes your ilk dwells in, so I am not acquainted with all of the special specialties that make you feel special, so-called Thinking Mom.

          • moto_librarian

            I’m tired of selfish assholes. Plenty of illnesses are highly contagious before symptoms develop. If you cannot meet the basic public health requirements, no, you do not deserve to attend public school. You also can be legally required to adhere to quarantine during an outbreak.

          • Simone Doggone

            Actually many outbreaks are amongst the fuly vaccinated. Looks like they were more of a risk than I ever was. Why did they have to take the risk of being vaccinated then get the illness.

          • Azuran

            So I guess in life you never do anything unless it’s 100% safe, 100% effective and 0 risks?
            Those who are vaccinated are often less sick and less likely to have complications. So, still a win.
            Indeed, in a population where the vast majority of people are vaccinated, it’s entirely possible to have more vaccinated people get the disease. It’s just normal. But that’s far from always the case. In most cases, when you include all dieases, most cases affect unvaccinated children. And most death are on unvaccinated children.
            And if no one was vaccinated. That number would be even higher.

          • moto_librarian

            Aren’t you the person who posted that the MMR has an 85% efficacy rate? Has it occurred to you that this is why some people who have been vaccinated will still get it? The outbreaks always start with someone who has not been vaccinated, and the other cases are typically also unvaccinated or under-vaccinated (meaning people who haven’t had boosters).

          • Jane Jones

            Nonsense–you made that up!!!

          • Jane Jones

            Perhaps we should ask for a quarantine on the recently vaccinated—those shedding these diseases!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            only the rotovirus, so just don’t change my kid’s diapers for the next couple days

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            (she’s getting her 6 month shots tomorrow)

          • Azuran

            Which diseases, at what rates, what are the actual risks of this happening? go ahead, citation please.
            Also, why do you fear shedding so much more than the actual diseases?

          • Bugsy

            Yes. I took my two boys and our visiting exchange student to a birthday party at a local pizzeria a few months ago. Another mom brought her daughters, who had just gotten over “stomach flu.” It was a pizza-making party, and the kids used communal bowls of cheese and toppings to make their pizzas. Later that day, she amusedly posted on Facebook how her younger daughter was eating the cheese directly out of the bowl.

            At the party, she told a friend that she and her younger daughter were still “a little bit sick.”

            The next day, every single kid who shared that fucking bowl of cheese was sick with a norovirus-type bug. My entire family got it. Ever deal with vomiting from two little kids and your husband while also having it yourself? While also trying to entertain your poor exchange student and keep her healthy? The mom never once acknowledged it nor apologized beyond saying “gee, everyone is sick right now.”

            I unfriended her on FB. I’m tired of selfish assholes, too. And this wasn’t even a VPD.

          • Azuran

            Except that you can’t always know beforehand if you are sick or contagious.
            By the time my friend’s parent realized their youngest had CP, his older brother, me, my brother and my 3 months old sister where ALL already infected. And we have no idea where we got it from. We don’t know of anyone around us that had CP at that time.
            And again, EVERYTHING has risks. You have the choice, but you have to accept the consequences that comes with it. There are many rules that comes with living in a society. You don’t want to take the minuscule risks of vaccine? Your choice. But you don’t then get to impose the risks of your or your kids presence to other people.
            As you said, no one should be forced to take anything that openly admits risks. Well, unvaccinated kids are a risk. Therefore, other people shouldn’t be forced to be in their presence.

          • maidmarian555

            Also, you know why I fear measles? Because I KNOW PEOPLE THAT ARE DEAF because of measles. Several, in fact. AND THEY WERE THE LUCKY ONES. It’s a disease that KILLS PEOPLE.

          • RudyTooty

            Wait, vaccines are safe. You want vaccine safety? Or no vaccines? It looks to be like the latter.

          • Nick Sanders

            Complete sentences.

        • RudyTooty

          Trump voters don’t want choice. They elected delusion to the nth degree.

          And I understand that although Trump voters and anti-vaxxers have remarkable parallels in their belief structures, they may not be mutually inclusive.

        • Nick Sanders

          Choice is fine, but allowing people to lie to the people who are making the choices, without providing factual counters to that lie isn’t. Where did Dr. Tuteur propose taking away choices rather than addressing falsehoods?

    • Bugsy

      This. My boys have been sick this past week with run-of-the-mill colds. Nothing major, although decent fevers with them. And you know what? I would have done anything to make them feel better right then and there, even though the illnesses weren’t particularly bad. It saddens me to see them with any type of sickness or in any type of pain. To ignore legitimate and safe means of protecting our kids? Or worse…moms who intentionally expose their kids to chicken pox and other illnesses? I can’t even…

  • Dan Bland

    Bobby Kennedy, Jr is presently in a lawsuit trying to prove vaccines caused a child to get autism. He had the judge subpoena Dr. William Thompson but the Head of the CDC refused to let him testify. This case isn’t over and you can bet your bottom dollar he’ll win this case.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      So what? You are really getting desperate.

    • Azuran

      Even if he did win, that doesn’t actually prove that vaccine causes autism. Many people have won many cases on the premise that ‘while there is 0 proof that it did, it cannot be absolutely ruled out’
      Especially in emotional cases like these, where you have one poor guy and his son VS a really huge company that clearly can afford to pay money.

      • Dan Bland

        Most of the research on proving vaccines don’t cause autism is fraudulent. I suggest you go research these three CDC employees and former employees; William Thompson, Thomas Verstraeten and Poul Thorsen.

        • RudyTooty

          You’re funny.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          How would you know what the research shows. You obviously haven’t read it.

          • Dan Bland

            Here is one of the authors of many papers claiming vaccines don’t cause autism. Poul Thorsen – Psychiatrist
            Last update on January 14, 2016 under Uncategorized
            A Danish psychiatrist heavily entrenched in pro-vaccine propaganda with the CDC has fled America with over $2 million in embezzled, phony grants he created (using taxpayer dollars) as he scammed well-known US universities and the CDC. As first reported in April 2011 by Natural News editor Mike Adams, Dr. Poul Thorsen was indicted by a federal grand jury in Atlanta on charges of wire fraud, money laundering and defrauding research institutions of grant money. No doubt, Poul Thorsen is a wanted man, but nobody is “going after him” in his home town in Denmark (where he resides peacefully), because Thorsen is the “author” of the Danish Autism Study (complete myth) that attempted to prove vaccines and autism have no correlation; scientifically referred to as the “Denmark Study.” (1) After using fraudulent data to distort the truth about the human health dangers of being injected with mercury in vaccines, and more specifically the MMR vaccine combination, Thorsen, the lead investigator of the fraudulent study was catapulted by the CDC as a genius who had discovered something monumental, but it was all a big cover up so the CDC wouldn’t have to admit their own research, which found out about the autism/mercury link back in 2004. This link to autism was already FULLY exposed recently, and with it carries monumental controversy, ever since the lead CDC scientist Dr. William Thompson blew the whistle on MMR toxicity and autism, most especially at HIGH RATES for African American boys when given the mercury-laced toxic inoculation under age three. (2)

          • Mike Stevens

            So Thorsen is meant to have committed wire fraud and bought a Harley.
            And…?
            Does that invalidate all his prior scientific research?

            Next up… Natural News exposes the fraud that is the general theory of relativity….because Einstein had a speeding ticket.

      • Dan Bland

        Here’s Bobby Kennedy, Jr in front of Congress speaking on the dangers of vaccines and the fraudulent research at the CDC. https://youtu.be/d–3q9PP3mA

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          What are his science credentials? Oh, right, he doesn’t have any.

          • 655321

            “Science credentials” Are you kidding? What exactly are “science credentials”? Phraseology like that coming from someone who went to medical school is shocking.

          • RudyTooty

            Phraseology.

            Big word. Gold star.

          • 655321

            Bummer when ignorance gets called out sometimes, eh Rooty?. Not to mention it was a perfect example of the appeal to authority fallacy, a commonly used propaganda technique. Sorry if some these words are too big for you RT.

          • RudyTooty

            Ignorance. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

          • 655321

            You excel at not thinking.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Was that supposed to be incisive?

          • 655321

            Is your question scientifically credentialed?

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Speaking at some rally in DC does not equal “in front of Congress.”

        • RudyTooty

          OK so less than one minute into it he’s demonstrating to me his lack of knowledge of which he speaks.

          Methyl mercury is not ethyl mercury and behaves differently in the body.

          Just like methyl alcohol is not ethyl alcohol and behaves differently in the body.

          • Dan Bland

            I didn’t hear him say anything about methyl or ethyl. Thiomersal has been around since the early twentieth century. That’s how old it is. Another name for it was merthiolate.

          • RudyTooty

            Because he doesn’t know what the eff he’s talking about !! That’s why he’s fear-mongering about mercury. Because he cannot make the distinction between mercury compounds. Well, he could, but he’d have to educate himself, first.

            Good gravy.

    • RudyTooty

      Lawsuits aren’t scientific studies and don’t prove anything.

    • Mattie

      In Miracle on 34th Street the guy goes to court to prove that Kriss Kringle is Santa Claus. They got a reindeer as a witness. Still didn’t change the facts, or actually prove anything…even in the movie.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    This is where the anti-vax clowns are coming from:

    https://www.facebook.com/thinkingmomsrevolution/posts/1043258742450832

    • Azuran

      I love how in the comments, the FB page owner is saying that she ‘expect to do some blocking today’
      Because she can’t stand to have people go on her page and not agree with her.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        I suspect she’ll be blocking because she can’t possibly debate me; her ignorance would be glaringly obvious.

    • moto_librarian

      Amazing that these “thinking Moms” couldn’t find a post that was less than two months old. I guess it must be the breastfeeding part that got their attention.

    • RudyTooty

      Thinking Moms.

      Thinking: I do not think that word means what you think it means.

      • Mike Stevens

        Drinking Moms?

  • Amy Tuteur, MD
  • Nothippyjusthealthy

    Eventually the truth cones out that you and every other vax propaganda spouting person will crawl in a hole and hope that we don’t remember.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Right … just like … just like…

      Wait, when was the last time quacks were right and scientists were wrong? Never, right?

      • Nothippyjusthealthy

        And your a scientist? No.

        I guess quack = parents tired of chronically ill children with people like you just say TRUST US! I guess that means millions of quacks are here to speak up against pharma paid trolls.

        • moto_librarian

          Why don’t you quit pointing fingers at vaccines and look at more plausible issues? Like air pollution, environmental contamination, water pollution, etc.

          • Azuran

            Or just the fact that ‘sickly’ children just don’t die before the age of 5 anymore.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          I do so love it when people come to a pro-vax, pro-science page for the express purpose of causing drama, and accuse the owner of being a troll on her own page.

        • Mike Stevens

          That would be “you’re” presumably?

    • moto_librarian

      It’s people like you that explain why Donald Trump was elected president. Facts mean nothing to you; only your feelings matter. You also don’t care about whether or not anyone else gets hurt, even your own children. No decent parent would prefer to see their child suffer from whooping cough or measles when a vaccine is readily available.

  • Susan Moore Lewelling

    We did listen to a doctor. And the CDC, and all the pro-vax claims. That don’t make my grandson any less dead of encephalopathy 12 hours after being proclaimed perfectly healthy & on track for his age, oh and “routine” vaccines given to him. Yes, the ones that the package insert lists encephalopathy as a possible side effect. I guess the NVIC gave his mother a settlement just out of the goodness of their hearts, right?
    I honestly think this article should be consigned to The Onion.
    “Accept no refusal”? What about parental rights? This is not Nazi Germany!
    You disgust me and your license should be under review!

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      I’m sorry for the loss of your grandson. Did his parents read the consent form they signed listing encephalopathy and death as rare side effects of vaccines? No one is hiding the risks of vaccines. They DO cause rare cases of encephalopathy and death, but they DON’T caused autism or other purported “vaccine injuries.”

      The risk of dying of a vaccine preventable disease is 1000 times greater than the risk of dying from the vaccine for that disease.

    • Azuran

      I am terribly sorry for the loss of your grandson.
      But what are you proposing that we do? Stop ALL the vaccination? Let Measles, polio, tetanus, Diphtheria and all those other VPD that killed hundreds of thousands of kids every single year come back? That we stop all research on the AIDS vaccine and just let it keep going? That we shouldn’t have used vaccines to eradicate smallpox and let it kill of people?
      No health care professional out there is saying that vaccine reaction aren’t a thing that exist. We also fully acknowledge that sadly, some people will have bad reaction and might die. Which is exactly why most government have put program in place to compensate those who are legitimately hurt by vaccine. (We do believe that a very huge number of reported vaccine reaction, such as autism, are not founded)
      But overall, Vaccines are the medical tool that has saved the most life of ALL medical tools.
      Demanding that we stop vaccination because someone died is akin to saying we should remove seat belts and airbags from cars. Because in a few car crashes, people have been hurt or killed by their seat belts or airbags.
      We should also stop doing surgeries. Sometimes people die of surgical complications.
      We should stop using antibiotics, since some people can have allergic reaction.
      We should basically stop using EVERY medication out there, since they all pose a risk of harm.

      Again, I am sorry for your grandson, indeed nothing would bring him back. But refusing vaccination and fighting against it is not the answer.

      • Dan Bland

        This is proof that vaccines are not safe. It’s a form of Russian roulette. Governments shouldn’t be the ones compensating vaccine injuries. The multinational corporations should not be immune to lawsuits. They are the ones that should be paying these poor people. If you get run over by a trucking firm does the government pay your hospital bills? The only way to make vaccines safer is to hold the makers accountable.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          The only thing there is proof for is that gullible people imagine themselves smarter than the majority of doctors, immunologists, research scientists and public health officials.

        • Azuran

          Actually yea, if I get run over by a trucking firm, the government DOES pay for my hospital bills. Because public health care.
          If you want to take it that way, EVERYTHING in life is a form of Russian roulette. NOTHING is safe. It however happens that vaccines are one of the safest options out there. You have more chances of dying of basically anything other than a vaccine injury.
          And so I suppose, if you oppose vaccines, the SAFEST of all medical tool/medication/procedure, that you also oppose every other possible medical intervention. After all, all those other medical interventions are more likely to kill you than the vaccines.

      • Susan Moore Lewelling

        So his life is just “collateral damage”… an acceptable risk? Sorry, that is not acceptable to me. Especially with the push to make vaccines mandatory.
        There is NO amount of compensation that can replace a child’s life or the damage his death did to the rest of our family.
        Increased sanitation, better nutrition, clean drinking water, all these things were bringing down death/disease rates before vaccines became widespread.
        Make vaccines COMPLETELY safe for all, through acknowledgement of all the damage vaccines can do, research as to what is causing the deaths/injuries, safe vaccines-clean of dna, preservatives, heavy metals, etc, pre-vaccine testing, use of titer testing before vaccinating, and so many more things that can be done to make vaccines safe. but you(collective, not specific) have to let go of the Vaccines are God mentality. Im out, I have enough mental anguish to deal with to waste time arguing with brainwashed individuals. God Bless & have a great day.

        • Azuran

          And if we stop vaccination. All those kids who will die, will they also be ‘collateral damage’….an acceptable risk to prevent vaccine damage?
          I’m fully aware that nothing can replace a child. But life itself is a balance of risks and benefits.
          People are killed in car crashes all the time, we still use car. People die of medical complication from any medical procedures and medication all the time. But the benefits we get are worth taking those risks. And vaccines have basically the best risk/benefit ratio of basically anything out there.
          Vaccines will NEVER be completely safe. Nothing will ever be completely safe. There will always be a risk to anything.
          And vaccine researchers ARE constantly working to make vaccines always safer. They are taking vaccine reaction seriously, they are trying to figure out the cause. And as a result of all the research that has been done, and all the research that is still being done, vaccine ARE the safest medical tool around and they keep getting safer all the time.
          But it will NEVER be 0. There will never be 0 risks to anything.

  • LJA

    You deserve the worse possible hurt for posting such awful horrible untrue information. Pro or anti vax, how DARE you discourage breast feeding… shame on you…. shame….

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Sorry to disappoint you, but breastfeeding doesn’t make you a better mother than bottle feeding.

      • Simone Doggone

        Breastfeeding just helps provide natural protection and immunity, is perfect nutrition for your baby ( suiting to his/ her age, and immune requirements, natural probiotic included) avoids formula recalls, contamination, corn syrup, growth hormone in cows milk etc. Breastfeeding and immunity passed on by mothers is just not scientific enough to waste time on for this doctor. Her bag of injections and formula made by Abbot pharmaceuticals is all you need! No need to waste valuable coersion time promoting breastfeeding, and maternal nutrition. Just go to a pharmaceutical lunch and learn with your baby, formula and adult Ensure meal replacement provided.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Please provide the relevant QUOTATIONS from peer review scientific articles. Oh, wait. You don’t actually have any scientific data.

        • moto_librarian

          Ah yes! The predictable bagging on formula because it contains corn syrup. You do know that a major component of breast milk is sugar, right? And that hydrolized formulas use corn syrup as the sugar because babies that need it cannot digest that which comes from cows?

          Just once, could you geniuses read up a bit about immunity before claiming that breastfeeding is the only (or even preferable) way for a baby to gain it? For instance, breastmilk cannot confer immunity to whooping cough – those antibodies must come from the placenta, which is why a booster is recommended in the third trimester.

          • Simone Doggone

            Take a look at the ingredients, a lot more than corn syrup. You cannot compare a processed, heated sugar (candy) to a natural sugar. Like comparing sugar in apple juice to sugar in an apple.

          • moto_librarian

            Do you even know that most formula doesn’t have corn syrup in it? I had two children with serious allergies as infants. The sugar from corn syrup helped them grow and thrive.

          • Heidi

            But but. . .the ingredient list has multisyllabic words that aren’t easy to pronounce! They make Simone not feel so smart anymore. Can’t have that — she’s a thinking mom!

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            fructose = fructose

          • Heidi

            Regular formula has lactose in it, just like human breast milk. My son did quite well on it, too. He’s never been sick a day in his life! Must be that magical formula that magically makes antibodies just for him!

          • maidmarian555

            Sugar is sugar is sugar. You would understand this if you had even the most basic grasp of science. Or human metabolism. It really doesn’t matter how ‘worthy’ the source of the sugar is, it still has the same effect on the human body.

          • maidmarian555

            Apple juice is different to raw Apple because of the amount of finer contained in a raw apple. Not because of the ‘quality’ of the sugar.

          • Simone Doggone

            I just checked the package insert for dTap, Adecel, and it still states it has not been tested for safety or effectiveness in pregnant women.

          • moto_librarian

            You know why that is, right? Ethical considerations. The only method for determining the safety of medication or vaccines during pregnancy is by voluntary reporting. We know from other studies that vaccines are safe during pregnancy, but researchers cannot conduct a true randomized study that would be approved by an IRB.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Pro-tip: Just because the manufacturer hasn’t done the study, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done. Since you’re a Thinking Mom, I’m sure you’ll be sure to read these articles.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27686182
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27091823
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27013434
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27002930
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26765288
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26739731

            These six studies were done in 2016. This is just 8 months of studies published. If you want to go back even farther, feel free. I’ll save you some time- not a single one showed an increased rate of adverse effects in either mothers or babies.

          • RudyTooty

            Sigh. Who are you trying to convince, here, with your logic?

            For the record, I used to be in the cult of anti-vaccination (not really by choice), spent too much time there wearing a tin foil hat and diffusing essential oils while disregarding facts, and eventually I decided to believe the truth. Or at the very least, information backed by scientific evidence.

            So no matter what blather you throw out there, you’re not going to convince me. I know your fear-tactics and shaming, and I know your complete lack of basis in what many of us consider ‘reality.’

            But carry on if you must, I’m not sure who you’re trying to persuade/recruit.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Have you read my linked articles yet? Still worried about the safety in pregnant women.

          • sabelmouse

            oh dear!

        • Azuran

          Most maternal immunity is provided before birth, through the placenta. The rest is provided by the colostrum. A baby’s gut loses the capacity to absorb immunoglobulins after roughly 24-48h. Breastmilk only contain locally active immunoglobulin that will act in the baby’s gut only, it will never be systemically absorbed nor have any systemic effect. It will not offer any kind of protection against diseases that are transmitted by the respiratory system, the skin, eyes or even many disease that are absorbed through the gut.
          The passive immunity will only last a few weeks, regardless of if you feed formula or breastmilk. After that, you need vaccination to teach the baby proper immunity.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      I breastfed and I have no idea what you are talking about. Dr. A isn’t the least discouraging to me

    • RudyTooty

      I’m a certified lactation counselor. I don’t care who breastfeeds.
      So yeah, I DARE to encourage non-breastfeeding. Because I believe women have the personal autonomy to make that decision for themselves.

      How is discouraging breastfeeding threatening to you? Why do you care?

  • bev

    I can’t wait till the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study from Dr. Paul Thomas’s practice is published. He promotes a modified vaccine schedule within his own practice, and among those children who were vaccinated on that schedule there is no autism. However, early analysis is showing that the fully unvaccinated children in his practice are by far the healthiest. — Prof

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      You’re probably also waiting for the return on your payment to the Nigerian prince who sent you the email promising you millions if you’d just advance him some money.

    • Mike Stevens

      If Paul Thomas publishes any data in a peer reviewed scientific journal, then I’ll eat my shorts.

    • Mattie

      1. How many children? 2. What ages are they? 3. What is your definition of ‘autism’, it is a spectrum of various behaviours, many of which occur in children without an official diagnosis of autism? 4. Have any families left the practice before their children reached an age where ASD could be diagnosed and were any follow-ups done? 5. Have any of the families ever seen another doctor for diagnosis of ASD-like behaviours?

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Science is far too hard for anti-vaxxers. I haven’t seen a single citation yet, let alone a quote of relevant passages from peer review articles.

    • Dan Bland
      • moto_librarian

        I knew that I’d heard the name Shoenfeld somewhere before. Turns out, it was in a post at SBM about people claiming that the HPV vaccine could cause premature ovarian syndrome. This tells me pretty much everything that I need to know about that “textbook:”

        “Also not surprisingly, Reference 1 is an article by Lucija Tomljenovic and Yehuda Shoenfeld that claims that the HPV vaccine can trigger an autoimmune syndrome, part of whose manifestation is premature ovarian failure. These two are antivaccinationists we’ve met before. Shoenfeld is best known for having made up a syndrome that he calls ASIA (“Autoimmune/Inflammatory Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants”) for which no compelling evidence exists. He’s also known for having provided pseudoscientific reports to bolster antivaccine claims that vaccines cause autoimmune disease and being the scientific advisor for The Greater Good. Speaking of The Greater Good, Tomljenovic is known for working closely with Christopher Shaw, an antivaccine scientist who appeared in the film to proclaim that we’re all living in a “toxic” soup and that vaccines are part of that soup. Basically, they both publish lots of articles claiming that the aluminum adjuvants in vaccines (particularly Gardasil) are causing horrific health problems; they’ve even blamed Gardasil incorrectly for a death, as was reported by The Toronto Star in one of the worst mainstream news articles I’ve ever seen on Gardasil. Yes, working with other antivaccine scientists, Shaw and Tomljenovic have tried to show that Gardasil kills. It doesn’t.”

        https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-claim-that-gardasil-causes-premature-ovarian-failure-ideology-not-science/

        • Simone Doggone

          Actually the medical association came out with a statement acknowledging ovarian failure. Look it up.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            What medical association? The American College of Pediatricians? A sham organization created to be bigoted agains homosexuals? An organization with a couple of dozen members? That’s the one you’re talking about, right? The fake organization that’s really just a front for a hate group.

          • moto_librarian

            Reliance on fake news. The parallels are unmistakable.

          • moto_librarian

            Let me help you out with this one: http://www.snopes.com/pediatricians-association-admits-hpv-vaccine-cancer-link/ The American College of Pediatricians is NOT the American Academy of Pediatricians. Thanks for playing!

          • Simone Doggone

            Yes, one cares the other doesn’t.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            THere is no one or the other. There is just one real group- the American Academy of Pediatricians. The American College of Pediatricians is a front for an anti-gay hate group.

    • Simone Doggone

      Do you really need a peer reviewed article to prove common sense. We were given 2 breasts to provide nutrition to OUR babies, and provide protection and natural immunity for them. How arrogant of the medical community to say we should let all the care of our babies be given over to a pharmaceutical companies and doctors because “science” experiments” have proven they know what is best. What kind of world are we living in.

      • moto_librarian

        Why don’t you take a look at the PROBIT study and get back to us? For reference, the only proven benefits of breastfeeding a term infant in the developed world were 8% fewer colds and incidences of gastrointestinal illness in the first year. All of those long-term health benefits? Unproven. Probably because most of the breastfeeding literature is riddled with confounders, including socioeconomic status. SES is a very good indicator for long-term health and wellness.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        Yes, because common sense led people to believe the world was flat.

      • Azuran

        Virtually >99% of the cats and dogs I treat were breastfed. And guess what. Vaccines preventable disease like Parvo is still rampant and kills tens of thousands of pet each year. In my clinic alone I see on average 2-4 cases PER WEEK.
        ALL those puppies and kittens received passive immunity from their mothers. But passive immunity is not the magical thing you think it is. It’s far from perfect and it’s short lived.
        And in a human, that passive immunity is provided through the placenta and the colostrum. NOT breastmilk.
        So breastfeed if you want. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vaccinate.

      • RudyTooty

        Well if you don’t have any research to share with us, then your common sense is just that: Common (among your friends, anyway). But not necessarily accurate.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Common sense says the sun revolves around the earth and that the earth is flat. Common sense says that malaria is caused by foul air from swamps. Common sense says that hormone replacement therapy should be given to all women past menopause.

        TL,DR version: common sense is useless.

      • Mike Stevens

        Strawman.

  • Dan Bland

    Ever heard of the Vaccination Injury Compensation Program? If you listen to doctors like this one you may need it some day.

  • ACC

    Wow. Breastfeeding is one of the surest and safest ways to protect your baby from infection and illness, and this has been shown in study after study. No matter your views on vaccination, it is very concerning that a doctor would choose to throw that out in order to promote vaccination, another effective way to prevent childhood infectious disease. Shame on this doctor.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Actually, it’s not. The countries with the highest infant mortality rates have the HIGHEST breastfeeding rates.

      • DarkOne

        Site your source Dr.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD
          • DarkOne

            Can you cite the specific mention of mortality rates in breastfed countries vs non in this article or are you going to make me review the entire damn thing to find reference to your claim?

          • kilda

            what, reading is too hard for you?

          • DarkOne

            No, but I have a day job. I thought maybe the Dr. would kindly show me the facts. Funny because I’m seeing all kinds of information to the contrary. PMC, ect. I’ll review before further comment on this claim.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You give up! Not surprised.

          • DarkOne

            lol.. you wish. So, your saying there is a direct correlation between breastfeeding and high infant mortality rates right? No other causation in effect? In this case causation = correlation yes? Like I said, I’ll review this as I never looked at the data before. But at the onset, I am skeptical considering the list of high breast feeding countries are third world!

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            *you’re

          • Azuran

            The point is not that breast milk causes infant mortality by itself. But rather that if it had all the properties everyone keep saying it has, mainly protecting against all those infections, then the infant mortality of third world country wouldn’t be as high as it is. Overall, it’s one of the least helpful thing that will affect your child’s health, Access to clean water and safe foods in adequate quantities, health care, vaccination, basic hygiene and prenatal care are all way more important than breastmilk.

          • Mike Stevens

            Point is that in poor resource countries with poor nutrition, hygiene and health care, infectious disease is rife.
            Solving those deficiencies will help reduce the high morbidity and mortality that comes from the high rates of infection, of course.
            In these countries, breast feeding is almost universal. But it does very little to reduce morbidity and mortality from infection. The greatest impact it has is on infant gastroenteritis, where there is a clear effect, but it is pretty impotent against other infections such as pneumonia, meningitis, measles etc.
            That is why vaccination is essential.
            People who think breastfeeding is some magic potion that will protect a child from all ills for the first couple of years of life are sorely misled.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            I’m going to make you review the entire damn thing, including the charts, to find the data that proves my claim.

      • AAC

        By your logic, we should have the lowest infant mortality rates of the developed world since we have the highest vaccination rates. We sadly miss that mark by a lot. However, a lot of factors go into infant mortality rates, like, let’s say, health care, access to clean water, food, prenatal care, etc. So, neither correlation is probably accurate.

        Any doctor who says it’s better to vaccinate than breastfeed should have their license examined. They are both important and they are both a parent’s decision to make.

      • Simone Doggone

        Source? I am going to consider that poverty, malnutrition, sanitation and clean drinking water, were likely factors.

        • moto_librarian

          That must be why polio was eradicated in the U.S. prior to the vaccine…oh, wait.

        • Azuran

          Indeed they are, which means that breastmilk is not magical, nor is it the surest and safest way to make sure your baby stays healthy.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Yes. Therefore, things like adequate food, sanitation and clean drinking water are more important than breastfeeding. Hence, it contradicts your assertion that “Breastfeeding is one of the surest and safest ways to protect your baby from infection and illness”

      • sabelmouse

        how supremely ridiculous!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Yet true!

          • sabelmouse

            your comment.

  • Darkone

    This is the kind of Dr. TO STAY well away from folks. Even if you do vaccinate which is by all means your choice. This so called Dr. is a hardliner and very dangerous. Stay away.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD