Hate trumps love

img_1429

It is a sad day for our children, our country and our world.

  • sdsures

    This is so much like Brexit. A lot of minorities like me are scared over here, as well. ๐Ÿ™

  • Brooke Dunne

    Good article at The Guardian by Robert Reich

    Democrats once represented the working class. Not any more
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/democrats-working-class-americans-us-election.

    “What has happened in America should not be seen as a victory for hatefulness over decency. It is more accurately understood as a repudiation of the American power structure.”

    • swbarnes2

      But women, minorities, gay people…they are IN the working class, it’s the one virtue of the Democratic party that they ARE trying to represent those people.

      The guys who voted for trump are like this guy;

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arlie-hochschild/the-tea-party-a-sinkhole_b_11761616.html

      He thinks that treating oppressed minority groups fairly is some kind of attack on his honor. He thinks people are laughing at those like him for voting against his own interests…so he votes harder against his own interests. He’s trying to lobby for environmental protection, while voting for Tea Party politicians who want to destroy the EPA. There are no policies that can magically fix this guy’s situation, and the policies that would help are being offered by Democrats, but his pig-headedness demands that he spurn them, in order to keep black people from getting too much nice stuff.

      Hilary got a majority of the vote. Her policies were not anathema to the vast majority of anyone, it’s just that the majority racial group has a majority of people who will vote for a guy with a KKK endorsement.

    • Kevin

      Not being from the U.S.A. tell me what party do you think represents the working class.thanks.

  • MB

    Listen, some of you aren’t going to like this, and say it is just fodder for the right, but I was honest with myself, maybe you can be too.

    http://mostwatched.trendolizer.com/2016/11/viral-thread-everybody-needs-to-hear-this-credit-jonathan-pie.html

    When my mother in law told me she was seriously considering voting for Trump when Sanders lost the DNC, I should’ve listened. When my father admitted that he was going to vote for Hillary, but it was a serious moral struggle for him, I should’ve listened.

    There might be a fantasy floating around in your head right now, something like, “Oh, you want Trump, fine, now you have him! Wait until the world comes down around your ears. Then you’ll see.” I’ve had that fantasy. This sort of “fine, you want the world to end, have it your way you little brats.” But we can’t run away. We can’t back down. We have to engage in serious actual debate with these people.

    She may have won the popular vote, but he still snagged SIXTY MILLION voters, people! That ain’t peanuts. Some of those people are racist fucks. Some of them aren’t. And we have to ask ourselves WHY. And then we need to recover our composure and fight like fuck through the democratic process and civil disobedience and peaceful protest–all the oldest, most boring tricks in the book. We need to stop smashing windows or threatening to break off and form our own country. None of that is going to protect the weak or the vulnerable, though it may satisfy some sort of desire to let those that disagree with us wither under their own self-destructive choices.

    These are farmers that grow food for you, people! These are men and women that live in simple places. No skyscrapers, mass transit, no broadway, we’re lucky if we have a community theater or a library (that’s still open). These people are not all bad. Some of them are bad. Some of EVERYBODY is bad. We need to start bridging the divide, and we need to start doing it FAST. Every day we spend spitting in the faces of our own, is another day of action wasted.

    Anyway — I’m gonna take a break for a while, and try and get involved. Something offline. I don’t know what yet. So thanks, y’all for just existing and listening. This was a super helpful blog and still is. See ya on the flippity flip. Peace

    • Maud Pie

      I’m struggling with some of these thoughts. I also was having these smug thoughts before Tuesday. Like, “he’s going to lose in a massive landslide and then those people will see no one wants their ignorant, bigoted beliefs, and they’ll just slink home knowing that they can’t influence government…”. I’m feeling mortified, like I tried to stand up to a belligerent drunk in a bar only to find out that every else in the bar was his pal. My feelings are complicated by my awareness all along that Trump represented to me so many individuals I’ve despised in my life: my brother’s ex-wife, my bullying exFIL, the asshole neighbor who harassed my family for two years because he took umbrage when my then spouse objected to his reckless use of illegal fireworks, every sexist, racist, bullying lowlifes I’ve encountered. Even though I knew it was irrational to perceive the election as my chance for personal vindication, even though I had more than ample rational reasons to oppose the altright creature, that “we’re going to show them” attitude never left.

      My fantasy solution is to form a republic of nerdy introverts whose only conflicts are intellectual differences that are discussed calmly and logically. Well, duh, I know that can’t happen. MB is right in calling for a constructive response. I don’t know what that will be. I don’t know if it exists. But that’s what we’re stuck with.

    • swbarnes2

      100% of the people who voted for Trump thought that a KKK endorsement was not a dealbreaker. There’s no way around that conclusion. How do you bridge the gap between someone who thinks that “women, people or pussy?” is a legitimate topic of debate, and someone who think that the basic humanity of half the population should not be up for debate? What is the middle ground there that you think women should be accepting?

      You want to talk about who is really breaking windows, read Shaun King’s twitter feed.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    I just banned Verboten for being boring and repetitive.

    • Heidi_storage

      Good. He was clogging up the comments with pointless insults.

    • N

      Thank you. He had nothing to say anyway, besides insults and “yo I’m the man, I’m the best, I’m great!”

    • Nick Sanders

      Hallelujah. Thank you so much.

    • FallsAngel

      Thank G*d!

    • Kevin

      Well done.

    • Who?

      I need to exercise restraint myself…

      It’s just fun, poking to see what fresh nonsense comes out next.

      • momofone

        Same here.

        • Who?

          Well we are a weird sock puppet…

          He was a needy little spud too, offering little asides as olive branches then getting snippy when I wouldn’t take them.

    • 655321

      Because he wouldn’t toe the line in your pharmaceutical pushing echo chamber? No surprise.

      • N

        No, because he was boring and repetitive. And he had no respect for anyone but himself.

  • Who?

    I think our friend Verboten may be the president elect himself.

    He’s just announced ‘I am full of knowledge, bigly’. Okay, I made that last bit up, he didn’t say bigly…

    Apparently I am a dolt and a troll. I gave him some suggestions for more variety in his pejoratives, but he hasn’t taken them.

    • N

      I had the same thought already. What if Verboten was….
      But no, that can’t be true. Or could it?

      • Azuran

        That depends, is it 3 am wherever Trump is right now? If it is, then yea, it’s definitely him.

  • MB

    The baby was in his high chair eating last night, and I always chat with him while he’s eating, and he nods his head dutifully, while he eats. He’s fifteen months. He understands more than you would think, I think.

    I was saying something about the election, about what kind of man he should grow up to be, something like, eat your vegetables so you grow up strong, always look out for the weak, not like that Trump, I know he’s our president but blah blah blah. I was rambling, I couldn’t even remember what I was saying, but it ended on the line: “because we bleed blue in this house, we’re democrats, and that means–”

    And my husband touched my hand and said quietly, “should we be teaching him partisan politics?”

    And my eyes filled with tears. Because I’m supposed to be teaching him to know what’s right and wrong, not what’s blue or red. Or how will he ever know.

    I vacillate between this serious hate for this man and then this hate for this hate, like I’m so hypocritical. A week ago, I was walking around so smug like, when he loses, they’re all going to riot, those stupid losers. What the hell happened here. We were supposed to be safe. Nothing is safe.

    And now I have to teach my kid right from wrong. I think colors are easier.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD
  • Megan
    • MB

      I actually wish I could double upvote this. Damnit disqus!! My vote counts for two! I’m white, I’ll have you know! And I live in rural America!!

      • Heidi

        I’ve lived in rural America and I’m still surrounded by rural America here in Knoxville, I went to school with people who had to be on free lunch to eat, whose family worked hard and weren’t able to provide without government assistance. I’m sure it was a slap in the face to depend on social programs when they were working their ass off. These are some of the same people who either didn’t vote or voted for Trump. It’s hard to understand their support of the Republican party and especially of someone like Trump, but I don’t know, for whatever reason, there are some “liberals” who still think it’s okay to shit on people like this. I’ve experienced it myself. When I was in NY working at a huge law firm there was this one guy who every fricking day badmouthed the South for being backwards and racist. He had no clue that I was a rural Southerner because I didn’t come into work barefoot putting on a hillbilly spectacle for him. And it was super offensive because I could see racism in NYC every single day. NYC’s school system is the most segregated in the nation! Charlotte, NC was one of the first school systems to make actual efforts to integrate their schools. I kind of felt like, well, at least where I come from both the minorities and the white are poor together.

        I absolutely don’t think Trump is going to help any of America, don’t get me wrong! But I do think that Toni person mentioned something worth remembering. The election of Trump was an eff you of sorts to the faux, smarmy, elitist, white liberalism going around. On my Facebook, a big chunk of my friends think the biggest, most pressing issue is access to organic food and whether or not women breastfeed. I don’t think it’s ever occurred to them to have a conversation with a corn farmer from Indiana or a cattle farmer from Tennessee. Instead, they accuse them of poisoning the food system, being too stupid to know they are being taken advantage of by Monsatan, make mean-spirited jokes about their dental situation or accuse them of bestiality and that’s a-okay. It’s the new group that’s okay to mock.

        But me, I have no fricking clue how to go about not alienating a big chunk of our country.

        • MB

          My comment was more geared toward the fact that electoral votes are skewed to weight more heavily to rural areas, such that a vote in a rural area is worth more than that of an urban area.

          But —

          You know, I actually thought A LOT about this very thing that you’re talking about right here. The very reason I came to THIS place, in particular, was that feeling of alienation from liberal dems, that they had failed me in my motherhood and left me behind. I had this feeling that they wanted to control me and my body just as much or more than some Republican fundamentalist fighting tooth and nail to overturn Roe v. Wade.

          Because, let’s be clear — I will fight with foaming-mouth fury to protect Roe v. Wade, although those pressures to control my body are not exactly the ones that are affecting me most obviously and most pertinently. The liberal dems clucking their tongues and shaming me about the way I want to give birth or feed my baby or raise my baby or whatever else nonsense, that’s the shit that touches my life in the most negative and obvious way.

          Liberal dems failed me. So I get the anger. I truly TRULY TRULY do. But I don’t get fighting against it by electing a sociopath to the white house.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s so tough. I feel like liberal dems fail me in their embrace of pseudoscience. But on the other side, I AM a liberal dem. I try to make the party more towards my values, but it’s hard when I feel so alone in that, when all of my non-Republican friends want to just bitch about the parties once every four years, and not get involved with it in between to make it more of what it should be.

            I did find Clinton to be, by far, the least pseudo-scientific of the four candidate.

            The thought that I might be able to control my reproductive rights is enough of a bugaboo to the right for them to put aside all of their differences and work as a coalition. The environment, worker protection, child care, maternity leave, education, women’s health – these aren’t enough for the rest of us to band together and work on? It appears not.

          • MB

            It was so much bigger than Clinton. It wasn’t even necessarily Clinton at all. But it’s the underbelly of NBC’ers, crazy anti-vaxxers, the shaming, the absolutism of what’s right, when it comes to issues of no right and wrong, we’re talking about the inconsequential minutae of raising infants and issues of health like childbirth that literally have NOTHING to do with anyone else besides ourselves and our families. It’s these crazy attitudes that have been poisoning the well. And I think there was a lot of ignorance of the effect of these types of attitudes on the general populace and even their own supporters.

            I still voted for Clinton. I feel like it’s important to note that.

          • Roadstergal

            You know, I had no idea about this side of things before I got onto this page. I’ve been horrified by all that I’ve learned. But my friends and colleagues in general still just have no idea how much this is going on, and of the harm that’s being done to women.

            I think the woo NCB/EBF crowd flies under the radar a lot in the general political scene.

            I think it would have been really cool how having a mother in the White House might have changed that.

          • BeatriceC

            I had an idea, because things were just starting to get back when I was having my kids, but I didn’t realize the extent of how bad things had gotten.

          • MB

            Yeah, I agree.

          • Heidi

            Yes, I don’t get it either. And mostly, I just wanted somewhere to get my opinion out and was looking for any excuse to do it! ๐Ÿ˜‰

            I feel pretty alienated myself because of the things you said.

          • carovee

            Seriously? You think Dems are trying to control your body more than republicans? How? What choices were they trying to take from you? I mean lots of liberal dems can be insufferable in their opinions, but opinions are not policy. They are not laws that constrict what you can and can’t do.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            What choices were they trying to take from you?

            They are insisting that everyone get vaccinated before attending public schools!

            Oh wait, is that democrats doing that or republicans? Couldn’t be democrats, because they are all about pseudoscience.

            (and indeed, a lot of anti-vaxxers are liberals, but then again, those crying about vaccination requirements are conservatives/libertarians)

          • Amy

            Honestly, what I found in my experience with the crunchy crowd, and ultimately what drove me away from it for good, was that while it sucks liberal-leaning people in, the longer they stay the more likely they are to embrace Alex Jones-style paranoia. From there it’s only a short jump to conservatism. (And indeed, Jones was a huge proponent of Trump.)

          • Roadstergal

            And Wakefield. Trump is a big fan, and they met (according to Wakers) during the campaign.

          • Nat

            I think also that a lot of people forget that a huge faction of NCBers are actually evangelical right wing Christians. So when people whine about liberal democrats “failing” them and blab on about their midwives being “liberal entitled white women” they are whining about the wrong people!

          • MB

            My midwives risked the health of my baby and me in childbirth for an idealism through manipulation and downright lies. These women were not right-wing conservatives. They were liberal, entitled white women.

            Republicans want to repeal Roe v. Wade. Like I said, I will fight that vehemently. But me, personally, that’s not really affecting me at this juncture in my life the same way liberal democrat women entrenched in pseudoscience have.

            Those women could have very easily killed me or my baby. Mess with my baby, mess with me, you do have an enemy for life.

            Again, I voted for Hillary, because I don’t think the way to fight this idealism is by electing a sociopath to the white house. But yes, I think Dems not only tried to control my body, but succeeded in doing so, far more effectively than any Republican idealism was able to.

          • carovee

            But what do your midwives have to do with liberal democrats? Are they running for office? Have they taken over your local party? Are they dictating policy? I’m sorry that you were harmed by these women but they have almost zero voice within the larger democratic party. The only reason midwives get anywhere is most politicians aren’t aware/don’t care enough to bother opposing them. And that goes equally for republican and democrats.

          • MB

            Look, the liberal dems made me feel like I was doing everything wrong. I am a liberal democrat. That is the group I most identify with. Those same people made me feel like enough of a piece of shit, that I hadn’t measured up, that I felt put off by it. It’s just a feeling, and it’s mine. I own it.

            Clearly, I’m wrong though about my feelings about liberal democratic elitism within their own ranks.

            Lol. Seriously. Look at yourself.

            I know you’re hurt, but come on dude. I’m on your side. I’ve cried my eyes raw.

            I’ll be honest, I’m really tired of fighting. I feel like I’ve had one of the longest weeks of my life.

            So, sure, have it your way. They’re all ignorant racist fucks. All 60 fucking million of them and everything that is going to happen to us is all their fault and they deserve it.

          • MB

            I just also feel like I need to add this: they didn’t have to pass a law to take control of my body. They denied me informed consent. They lied to me about my particular risk factors that I specifically confronted them about–to my face. They provided me with sub-par pre-natal care. I mean, how the hell do you think I ended up here, on this particular blog? I’m seriously not attacking you, I just feel like it’s important to make this crystal clear. I came HERE because I felt like liberal dems really failed me not only in indoctrinating me to false science, but taking away my rights as a patient in the most vulnerable moments of my entire life. I was owed the right to at the very least know my risks and my choices.

        • carovee

          But what have Republicans done for those voters? What’s the point in saying “Ha ha, stupid liberal. You think I’m so dumb. Well I’m going to vote for someone who won’t give a damn about me or do anything to help me. That will show you whose smart.”?

          • Heidi

            Where I live they’ve voted Republicans in the House and Senate who are actually making many of the decisions that affect them. One, they (the politicians) support these people’s beliefs – Christian, pro-life, and even if they are screwing them over, they aren’t making them feel less than, even if they are treating them that way. They are still just as poor as they were yesterday even with a Democrat as president thanks to a Republican governor, Senate and House. Now, this makes me feel a little shitty saying this, but I don’t think a lot of people even realize how the government is run and blame Obama, for example, for the fact things aren’t great for them yet. I think maybe they see Hillary as the same and think it would be stupid to vote for more of the “same.” I, for example, didn’t gain anything for years after the ACA because of loopholes Republicans pushed for. My husband’s company didn’t have to pay for my birth control in 2013 because they got grandfathered in. Now, I personally support the ACA and we could afford to pay full price. I’m hoping something positive could come out of this shitshow and people can see it for it really is. But, my opinion, and that’s all it is, could be wrong about why a lot of middle America voted Trump. But there’s gotta be some reason they did despite it not being in their best interest.

          • Toni35

            In reality, they aren’t going to get anything real from Trump. They won’t get anything from any politician. I think most of them know that. What they did get was *heard*. I don’t think the impoverished whites in middle America mind being ruled over… They’re used to that by now. But Hillary Clinton (and many elitist liberals) outright mocked them (and have been doing so for decades). The sheer number of times I heard “uneducated white males” on election night was epic – would have made a great drinking game! That was her/their mistake. Trump, for all his faults, actually gave the illusion of giving a damn about their situation. Maybe sometime in the next four years you all can find a candidate that will at least pretend to give a crap about everyone. Not just the groups you decide are worth giving a crap about.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, won’t someone finally think of the white men?

          • Toni35

            Go ahead. Double down. Keep calling everyone in between the coasts stupid, redneck, racist troglodytes. How’s that working for ya?

            Oh, wait. I saw how that worked for you Tuesday night….

            Good luck with that.

            I’ll add that Trump did better with Latinos and Blacks than Romney did. And he got a pretty good representation on female votes too. I image there were even one or two college grads who voted Trump… Hmmmm…. Maybe everyone is tired of the wolf-crying SJWs…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’ve talked about this before.

            Clinton tried. She went to West Virginia and asked what could be done to transition their communities out of coal mining and position them for the future. You know how well that worked?

            They quoted her out of context and attacked her.

            Keep calling everyone in between the coasts stupid, redneck, racist troglodytes. How’s that working for ya?

            Trump gets praised for “telling it like it is” when he calls Mexicans rapists and Muslims terrorists. Clinton gets trashed for insulting white people.

            I don’t think racism is acceptable because it gets people elected.

          • Roadstergal

            Non-college-educated white males are indeed a substantial demographic. What else should they be called? Tim?

            “Maybe sometime in the next four years you all can find a candidate that will at least pretend to give a crap about everyone”

            Hillary gave many speeches and policy statements on workers’ rights, women’s rights, and initiatives for families. Like the child tax credit, which got approximately zero coverage:
            http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/10/hillary-clinton-releases-plan-help-children-deep-poverty

            But when she tried to talk to working people about policies to help working people, the airwaves would rather cover Trump, or an empty podium (equal intellectual contributions from each):
            http://theslot.jezebel.com/cable-news-chose-to-air-footage-of-trumps-empty-podium-1779601746

          • Toni35

            It wasn’t so much that the news people were calling non-college-educated white males what they are (and they almost exclusively used the term “uneducated” btw, which has a bit of a different ring to it), it’s that they failed to acknowledge that there were a good deal of female, non-white, and college educated Trump voters as well. They desperately want to make this all about race, sex, gender, and class. It’s insulting, really.

            Those in power typically attempt to stifle the voices of the minority. And for most (all?) of my life the liberals have had the power in the realm of social issues. Say or think anything that doesn’t 100% jive with the cultural viewpoint of the progressives and SJWs and you get screamed at for being a racist. So people stopped talking. But in the voting booth there isn’t anyone to scream at you. It’s one last place where your voice cannot be silenced, your freedom of thought and expression cannot be stifled. People are sick of being told what to think, what to say, and how to say it. Freedom of speech *includes* the right to express bigoted, racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, whatever-phobic thoughts. The liberals love burning and/or shitting on the Amercian flag. I detest that, but I will defend to the death your right to do it. I understand finding bigoted speech deplorable. But even the worst of it is protected under the first amendment. Call bigotry out, sure. But even when good, decent people who aren’t racist at all phrase something in a way that displeases you, or disagree with a premise, you silence them by screaming “bigot”. You on the left forgot what freedom of speech means. You do not have a right to never be offended.

            The people have spoken. And before you moan about the electoral college, let’s remember something. Our country is not, and was never meant to be, a democracy. We are a democratic republic. In a pure, majority rules democracy, Clinton would have won, yes. She got the popular vote. Just like if you ask two wolves and a lamb what they want for dinner… Bye bye lamb. We have the electoral college to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Most on the left are used to being “anti-establishment”. They identify with the lamb. But here’s the thing – you won the cultural war. You aren’t the lamb anymore. You are now the wolves. I imagine that will take you some time to get accustomed to. It may very well be your turn to be careful how you say things… Ironic.

          • Box of Salt

            Toni35 “The people have spoken. And before you moan about the electoral college, let’s remember something.”

            No, Toni: Pick one. You can’t have it both ways.

            If you want to go with the people, then Hillary won. If you’re going to back the Electoral College, don’t try to use the people’s voice to back you.

            If you’re going to champion the less educated, lower income mostly white men whom you think Hillary ignored and dispargaed to cost her the election, you cannot take away their voice via Electoral College.

          • Toni35

            The electoral college makes sure the working poor get heard at all. Otherwise those running for office would have but to secure the votes of the population centers and could ignore middle America entirely.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Still, won’t someone think of the white people?

            Let me ask you a question: so what if they did?

            What is wrong with catering to as many people as possible instead of land mass?

            You are just begging the question

          • Toni35

            The wolves, who outnumber the lambs, decide the lambs gets eaten, and the lambs don’t get any say in the matter.

            Pure majority rules democracy implodes upon itself. The tyrannical majority always wins, meaning as long as you can get 51% or more of the population to agree to something, that becomes law. Our founding fathers didn’t want this to be a democracy for that very reason. Democracies can be just as tyrannical as the worst dictatorships. If we were a pure, majority rules democracy slavery would still exist in this nation, women would never have attained suffrage here, and the progressive, liberal viewpoint would most certainly not be the majority voice right now. That’s why we are a democratic republic, NOT a democracy. It’s actually a very good thing, though I know you don’t think so at the moment.

          • Melissa Wickersham

            The election results this year indicate that the so-called “democratic republic” that you say we are is no longer going to be a “democratic republic” with a two-party system, but instead we will become ruled by one party who will persecute and abuse minorities and ethnicities who aren’t white, Christian, or conservative/right-wing.

            The last time that one party was in charge of all branches of government, the Great Depression occurred.

          • Box of Salt
          • Toni35

            Thank you for posting that… That explanation really makes it more clear where your side is coming from and I appreciate the perspective. I know for myself, as well as many others, the choice this cycle (and most every election cycle I’ve seen in my lifetime) has come down to the choice between what one percives as the lesser of two evils. I think people were willing to give Trump more leeway precisely because he was not a politician. Clinton has been in the political arena for 30 years. She is well versed in the art of talking out of both sides of her mouth, having dual personas; pleasing the Saudis and the giant corporations and pandering to the public seamlessly. I don’t trust him, but I trust her less. And a LOT of people felt the same way.

            This won’t be popular, and I’m prepared to be flamed, but a vote for Hillary was a vote for sexism. The only reason she got the nomination over Sanders was because the left was so enamored with the idea of electing the first female president, they failed to pick the best candidate. Bernie didn’t get nominated because he doesn’t have a vagina. Really, the Trump voters did everyone a favor – had Clinton won, she would have been not only our first female president, but also our last.

          • Nick Sanders

            I think people were willing to give Trump more leeway precisely because he was not a politician.

            I don’t intend this as an insult, but this is utterly unfathomable to me.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “I don’t intend this as an insult, but this is utterly unfathomable to me.”

            But this is how many, many, people actually feel. This hate of “career politicians” is what fueled Jesse Ventura’s win in Minnesota ~2 decades ago. Jesse was a loud-mouth former pro wrestler with a persona not unlike that of Trump’s.

          • Toni35

            I can understand it. Trump is a business man. Clinton is a politician. People don’t generally trust either, but politicians are generally viewed less favorably than businesspeople simply because of all their duplicity. They say what voters want to hear and walk the line of political correctness just long enough to get elected, then they turn their backs on the constituents and go back to dry humping corporations. Hillary Clinton owed a lot of people a lot of money for funding her campaign. Oh I know, we don’t actually SAY that, but come on… We know who paid clintons bills, and therefore where her real interests and loyalties lie. Trump largely funded his own campaign. The idea that he doesn’t “owe” anyone anything is especially appealing to the common man. The fact that he was indelicate, to say the least, only *helped* him. He didn’t sound like a career politician, with their vague non-answers and ultra PC language. He made mistakes. He got things wrong. He spoke simply, in the vernacular of the very same people who voted for him. That doesn’t automatically mean he is more in touch than Hillary is with the common man, but he spoke their language. He didn’t talk over them, nor did he talk down to them. He was someone they could identify with, at least a heck of a lot more than they identified with her.

          • Nick Sanders

            Again, it makes no sense, business people are just as duplicitous, if not more so, than politicians, especially if you are worried about corporations.

          • Toni35

            Not from the view of the general public tho. We encounter businesspeople everyday, and many of us ARE businesspeople. We know them, talk to them, deal with them every day. We work for them and with them. Politicians? Not so much. They are less relatable. The left often demonizes “big business” in the same way the right demonizes “big government”. But the common people, at least IMO, understand that big business never made any promises to the people – no one thinks they owe us anything or answer to us. The politicians are actually supposed to work for us, and answer to us, but all too often they don’t. And that’s why I think politicians are LESS trusted, generally, than businesspeople.

            I could be totally off base, but this is the sense I get, and explains why voters gave Trump more leeway on all his gaffs and his non-PC style.

          • Melissa Wickersham

            Excuse me, but how can the “common man” blue collar worker identify with Donald Trump? Trump is a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Trump is one of “the elite”. He will trample all over the rural blue collar worker class and the poor whites who voted for him.

          • momofone

            I definitely understand, but that is the perspective of a lot of people I know too. My husband believes that people voted for Trump because they are desperate for a change. My thought is the old “be careful what you ask for” thing.

          • fiftyfifty1

            I don’t think they chose Hillary because she is female, they chose her because she had “paid her dues” and it was “her turn”. The Clintons did a lot of favors for a lot of people in the party over the years. (Example: a senator in my state, when asked why he was endorsing Clinton when Sanders had crushed her in our primary talked about all she had done to help get him elected).

            Sanders, on the other hand, was never even a Democrat. He wasn’t a Dem team player. This outsider status is what made him an unattractive candidate for the Dem party, but what made him very attractive to many voters.

          • Toni35

            You’re probably very right. Refusing to even acknowledge the whole DNC scandal didn’t help the democrats either. A lot of people refused to “hold their nose and vote Clinton”. Those people likely would have voted Sanders.

          • Mark

            Perfect example as to why we have far too many superdelegates if we need them at all.

            The party apparatus has lots of influences w/o adding in superdelegates. At least the voters could of held your senator responsible for thwarting the will of his constituents. Not so for non elected superdelegates.

            But I find it doubly annoying when some people blame Sanders supporters for loosing the election. Actually three reasons.

            Their is no evidence of this being true.

            Sanders supported Clinton

            It is a bit rich to ignore the people who supported Sanders and when the complain of the process say, it is the rules,’take it or leave it. Oh my god, they left us?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Perfect example as to why we have far too many superdelegates if we need them at all.

            What the hell do superdelegates have to do with anything?

            Why shouldn’t the party “apparatus” have influence? As noted, Sanders was only a democrat of convenience (kind of like Trump being republican by convenience). Of course the party leaders are not going to jump up and down for him. Why should they?

            Then again, i disagree completely with fiftyfifty. Hillary wasn’t nominated “because she paid her dues.” She did it because she was and is formidable, has been her whole life. Even when she was first lady (or before), there were discussions of her being the first woman president. Not because she “paid her dues” but because DAMN she is good. She is a great public servant, and has been really good in public office. You can ask the people she’s worked with – democrat or republican. She does a great jub.

            This is why the republican machine went after her as hard as they did. For 25 years, they have been throwing everything they can at her, and it’s not because “she paid her dues.” It’s because they knew damn well that she has what it takes to be president.

            Remember, she was damn close in 2008, a lot closer than Bernie was this year.

          • Mark

            Hillary is a great candidate and I voted for her in the election.

            It does not change my opinion that the primary should be pretty much one person one vote. Maybe a much diminished superdelegates not fifteen percent.

            Does not change my opinion that the DNC should try to run a fair primary.

            I all for people endorsing and persuading the electorate. I am not for the party dictating to the electorate. I would say the same thing if I backed Hillary in the primary. Let her win on the issues not insider support.

            Say what you will, but don’t be surprised by the angry backlash of voters, life long democrats like myself who don’t insiders having thousands and thousands more voting power than I.

            Some more democracy please?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It does not change my opinion that the primary should be pretty much one person one vote. Maybe a much diminished superdelegates not fifteen percent.

            Clinton had more than 3 million more primary votes than Sanders. Superdelegate votes did not affect the outcome of the primary.

            If you want one person, one vote, then toss out the stupid caucuses, because those are the things that are out of whack. Just go to a straight primary vote.

            Of course, if you did that, then Sanders would have lost even worse than he did.

            Clinton won the primary because more people voted for her. As a result, she got more delegates. It had nothing to do with superdelegates. You got your vote, and it counted. Millions more voted for Clinton. That’s why she won.

          • Mark

            I never said she did not win.

            Yes, get rid of caucuses too. Yes she won more delegates and I have no evidence that the superdelegates or even the DNC playing favorites had any effect on the primary.

            Good thing Hillary and Bernie agreed to cut the superdelegates by two thirds in the future and I hope it will be passed by the majority.

            Meanwhile if I voted for Bernie and he won by a landslide in my congressional district and my congressman went the other way, how do you think that would make me feel. Would you not feel the same way if it happened in your district?

            What about the leaked e-mails showing the DNC actively campaigning against Bernie.

            I am not upset at the outcome so much as the process

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            What about the leaked e-mails showing the DNC actively campaigning against Bernie.

            And? What about it?

            Why shouldn’t DNC officials actively campaign for a candidate who is representative of the democratic party, as opposed to a guy who jumps in when it is convenient?

            Oh dear, the Democratic National Committee is actively campaigning for a mainstream democratic candidate!!!!!

          • Mark

            The DNC mission statement is to remain neutral during the primary.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            For democrats, sure.

            BTW, if the DNC was so “actively campaigning” for Clinton, why did it actually take “leaked” e-mails to find out?

            Apparently, their active campaigning wasn’t so obvious. Sure, they had their preferences, but if you have to look to private emails to find that, then I’d say they did a really good job of remaining neutral.

          • Mark

            Bernie was a democrat yes, and so was his voters.

            If the DNC wants to put a time frame saying you need to be a registered democrat for x years before running then fine.

            Agree to disagree then. Are views of party is just different.

          • Mark

            I suppose then that the apology that the DNC issued to Bernie Sanders, his supporters and to the whole democratic party was not necessary then.

            http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/dnc-apologizes-to-sanders-for-inexcusable-remarks-in-email-leak-226149

          • Mark

            In short do we have to wait till the superdelegates did change the outcome in order to complain?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            In short do we have to wait till the superdelegates did change the outcome in order to complain?

            If the RNC had a superdelegate system, Trump would have never been nominated.

            Are you so sure it is bad?

            These superdelegate complaints are a complete red-herring. Clinton also had superdelegate support in 2008, at least initially. But the superdelegates (including HRC herself!) ended up voting for Obama at the convention. Not an issue.

          • Mark

            Fine I get it. You don’t mind old party power and somewhat bias primaries. The party knows best. Fine, just say it.

            So for the Democratic members who voted for Sanders and are upset at this or even Hillary supporters who did not like what the emails showed should all just grow up. Put on your big boy or girls pants and deal with it. Fine.

            Sanders was a big boy and campaigned hard for Hillary.

            But please no complaining about third party candidates or people who sit out elections.

            In your Democratic Party where the DNC can actively support and bias the election for one candidate over another, don’t expect unity at the end of the process.

          • Empliau

            Are you aware (genuine question) that superdelegates were established because having the primary voters select a candidate resulted in 2 out of 3 elections being landslide losses in the electoral college? McGovern in 1972 and Carter in 1980. And Carter in 1976 ran against an unelected incumbent weakened by a strong primary challenger. The DNC is trying to get an electable candidate, not primarily to represent the will of the people, if that means they will lose.

          • Mark

            A fair response and an honest one. I much appreciate someone telling the truth than trying to hide behind disingenuous arguments, aka lying.

            Perhaps if the DNC ran a straight up fair neutral primary this would not of been such an issue. You know scheduling more debate and not during sports events.

            I do think they went to far. Also starting the campaign 400 delegates behind before the first vote is counted is not cool.

            I am sure the insiders feel as frustrated about the electorate as some in the electorate feel about them.

            I am happy it appears that two thirds of the superdelegates will be tied to the popular vote.

            Also you have to realize that if the will of the people is thwarted by insiders, some will go third party.

            Not me, but some.

            But good point. If only it were just that, if the superdelegates would also hold off announcing their preference till after their state voted it would be easier to take.

          • You do realize Clinton picked up more votes in the Democratic primaries than Sanders, right? She won that primary in part because of people like me, who thought she was the most qualified candidate.

            My choice was between a woman and a Jew. I was over-the-moon thrilled to be presented with two viable, experienced, diverse candidates, but in the end, their varied forms of diversity did not influence my vote. Pragmatism trumped idealism for me. Clinton had real plans, real details, real policies. Sanders sold dreams. That wasn’t good enough.

            You don’t trust Clinton? Congratulations. The 30 year smear campaign by the Republicans worked. There’s no reason to not trust her- as investigated as she has been, the fact that she’s been charged with no crimes probably makes her the cleanest politician this country has ever seen. She plays the game, and she plays it well, and she’s not a perfect person by any means. But to distrust her, when her public and private policy positions are so congruent, when she’s consistently rated as highly truthful by every fact-checking group … I don’t get that at all.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Hillary Clinton would have done more to help them than Trump ever would. If you think voting for the guy who’s going to screw you over instead of the woman who would have helped you will make liberals respect you, you are sadly mistaken. You’ve simply confirmed that what you perceive as contempt was warranted.

          • Verboten

            Hillary Clinton is a criminal and will be prosecuted. Thank you for showing your lack of judgment to the world.

          • Daleth

            Hillary Clinton is a criminal and will be prosecuted.

            Even the Republican, Trump-voting Director of the FBI said she’s not a criminal. And you know he would have loved to throw her in jail if he could have. So, no, sorry, there is zero factual basis for your highly unoriginal, tinfoil hat-wearing opinion.

          • Who?

            Verboten is a treat. Loves America to the death, but not his own.

            Thinks money will buy his future children a ‘silver spoon’.

            Thinks american companies will go down rather than just take themselves offshore if Trump closes off trading.

            And will cheerfully kill anyone who looks sideways at him, but won’t allow abortion.

            Apart from the last bit there, he’s pretty funny.

          • momofone

            ‘And will cheerfully kill anyone who looks sideways at him, but won’t allow abortion.”

            His respect for life–well, except for anyone else’s–is breathtaking to behold.

          • N

            And he wants to hang people again. Let’s go back to the middle age, or wild west.

          • momofone

            It’s almost as if he’s…regressive.

          • Azuran

            And then, after he forces a poor woman to have a baby she can’t afford to take care off, he sure as hell isn’t going to help her take care of that baby. Or give that baby proper health care, or help him get a proper education. Wouldn’t want that kid to be ‘sheltered’.

          • Verboten

            Yea, see reality is much different than what the media has been portraying. The only chance Clinton has of getting off is if Obama pardons her prior to Trump taking office, and even then, Obama can’t pardon her for new crimes that are ferreted out. Whether you want to believe it or not, Hillary is a criminal and she is not above the law.

          • Daleth

            Uh huh. I notice you still haven’t even named any actual crime that she supposedly committed, much less explained what she did that constitutes that crime.

          • Verboten

            Most of what I know about Clinton cannot be verified here. That aside, the email server was already a criminal offense, her bleaching the data is a criminal offense, her allowing Americans to die in Benghazi while she wrote a lie to give to the American people is an extremely grave criminal offense, the fact that emails are coming out that she intentionally colluded with the state dept. to hide details about her email server, pay-to-play politics, lies about the Clinton Foundation, letting 10,000 Haitians die, having the state dept. attempt bribing FBI agents…do I really need to continue?

          • momofone

            Backing up what he says is not Verboten’s strong suit.

          • Toni35

            Perhaps she would have…. If only she would have bothered to tell them that. Heck, she didn’t just refuse to acknowledge them, she openly mocked them.

            Ah well.

            Honestly – I don’t think the poor people in middle America really care about earning the respect of liberals. The idea is laughable. Unless you are a liberal, I guess. Then you expect them to automatically respect you and couldn’t possibly fathom them not giving two shits about what you think of them.

            As a registered Independent I was just as gob smacked by Hillary’s nomination as I was by Donald’s. You guys could have put up Bernie and won in a landslide…. Not sure what anyone was thinking this go ’round.

          • Box of Salt

            Toni35 “As a registered Independent I was just as gob smacked”

            My, you’re smug! Has it occurred to you yet that you have to live through the next four years just like the rest of us?

          • Toni35

            We’ve been through worse. My family, on my mother’s side, has been here since the late 1600s. Forgive me if I don’t have the vapors over a four year blip. We’ll be okay.

          • Box of Salt

            Toni35 โ€œMy family, on my mother’s side, has been here since the late 1600s.โ€ And youโ€™re suggesting the liberals are elitist?

            โ€œForgive me if I don’t have the vapors over a four year blip. We’ll be okay.โ€ You think your background and stated libertarian stance on politics are going to make your family immune to the consequences of having a bigoted, misogynist, mendacious braggart as commander-in-chief?

            And, again, youโ€™re criticizing liberals for being elitist?

            Newsflash, Toni35: youโ€™re not above it all.

          • Toni35

            Never said I was above anything. If he fails, he won’t be re-elected. I am above panic. That doesn’t do anyone any bit of good. He’s already showing signs of the moderate position I was hoping that he would. He may be a lot of things, but he’s not stupid. He’ll likely pleasantly surprise liberals as much as he pisses off conservatives. That’s what I was banking on. He admits, as most logical people do, that the ACA does have some good qualities that are worth preserving. He’s not going to build a literal wall between us and Mexico (did anyone ever really think that?!!). But he will try to come up with stricter immigration laws. I think all most people want to see is criminals deported. If you are here illegally and you commit a crime, you should get sent back from whence you came. Hopefully we’ll see serious reform of the tax code. Hopefully rebuilding our infrastructure will be more important to him than where people go pee. I know it’s easy to freak out – Obama extended executive power beyond what he should have, and now someone you don’t like is in power… And suddenly you are worried about overreach…. Hmmm

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            He will not be able to govern; he lacks the knowledge and the temperament for it. He will not be able to bring back jobs or erase the decline of the economic fortunes of blue collar workers. His supporters will get angry when they find out they were conned and to appease them he will give them hate.

            Look at the larger picture. The hard right have been gaining an ever larger share of the government for decades: more Representatives, more Senators, more governors, more state offices, more Supreme Court justices. They haven’t been able to address ANY of the economic grievances of the blue collar workers BUT even as their power increased steadily their favorite response has never changed; it’s always that the Democratic elites are at fault. You could purge the government of every single Democrat and nothing would change for the majority of Trump voters.

            Republicans trash the economy. Democrats repair it. Stupid, willful leaders (think W) mire us in wars and economic crises. This guy makes W look like Einstein.

            The irony is that people who voted for Trump stand to lose the most but they couldn’t see it. Who gets hurt in a recession? Who gets hurt when unemployment rises? It isn’t the liberal elite, is it? It’s the Trump voters. And they’re going to get hurt more than they can imagine.

            I hope that they can eat hate because when all is said and done, that’s what they’ll be left with.

          • Toni35

            I know your mind is made up. I never expected to be able to change it. I notice you ignored every point I made and instead gave me your leftist talking points. That’s entirely expected.

            Look, I’ve been a long time reader here, and I respect you, and your commenters. I was simply trying to give the viewpoint, as I see it, from where I live (semi-rural Ohio). Did the working poor and the middle class just shoot themselves in the foot? Maybe, maybe not. But even if they did, they didn’t do it because “zomg racism”. A lot of people who voted from Obama (many of them twice), ended up voting for Trump.

            If the left wants to win in 2020 they need to figure out why that is. Just offering up what I’m seeing in my neck of the woods.

          • Daleth

            Forgive me if I don’t have the vapors over a four year blip. We’ll be okay.

            Interesting. I guess when you say “we,” you’re not including black people, Muslims, gay people, the poor, etc. etc. etc.?

          • Toni35

            No I mean everyone. Trump has historically been pretty socially
            liberal. He has shown support for the LGBT movement. He hires women, and pays them based on merit. He has worked with numerous Blacks and was never accused of racism (until he ran against the democrats). People, in this country are more split on economic issues than cultural ones anymore.

            Again, we will be okay. The earth is not going to crash into the sun, despite what huff po might want you to think.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            He was accused of refusing to rent apartments to blacks. And my family’s been here since the early 1600s on both sides.

          • Toni35

            From what I understand, he refused to make his rentals section 8. If you think blacks are the only ones who participate in section 8 housing… Well… That says more about you than him.

          • Your understanding is flawed, or rather incomplete. Oh, Trump could very well have also refused to participate in Section 8 housing, but that’s not why he was sued by the Department of Justice. He implemented policies whereby black applicants were told the apartments weren’t available, and black applicants who did manage to get a showing were marked with a “C” (for colored) on their applications and refused based solely on their race. It doesn’t get much more textbook discrimination than that.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html

            Edited for accuracy on the letter put on the applications.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            That’s what I was referring to

          • Toni35

            So 40 years ago Fred Trump’s company (which 27 year old Donald Trump was president of at the time) was sued by the DOJ for discriminatory housing practices. They settled out of court, with no admission of guilt. That proves that Donald Trump is racist?

            Hillary Clinton was under federal investigation for using an unsecure server when handling classified emails, and even though it was found that she had knowingly used an unsecured server, was in a position where she couldn’t feign ignorance, and she destroyed evidence, they declined to prosecute. This mishandling of classified material was while she was Secretary of State just in the past few years. At the very least she was grossly negligent, they declined to prosecute only because of some bullocks about “lack of intent” (last I checked yu don’t need to intend to break a law to still be guilty, but I digress). By your standards, Hillary Clinton is clearly a spy.

            And let’s not forget the Defense of Marriage Act that her husband signed into law while he was POTUS, defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. Hillary herself opposed gay marriage, until it was politically convenient for her to support it. That makes her a homophobe, no? When called out on this inconvenient bit of flip-floppery, most liberals will start talking about people’s beliefs “evolving” and “growing” and that since she claims to support the LBGT movement now, she is NOT called out for being homophobic.

            If it is possible that Hillary’s views on gay marriage changed in the past 15 years, is it not ALSO possible that Trump’s views on race have also undergone some sort of evolution over the past 40 years? Or are only liberals allowed to change their minds?

          • Ah, Toni35, no. Fred Trump’s company, of which Donald Trump was CEO, was sued for discriminatory housing practices which were well-documented and did not end after the consent decree. The lack of an admission of guilt is standard for those sorts of things- everyone knows it means you are guilty, but the Feds are letting you off in return for you fixing it. Except, of course, the Trumps didn’t fix it, and just managed to avoid being caught for violating the consent decree by playing the justice system and running out the clock on the consent decree while the Justice Department was still gathering evidence.

            Clinton was under investigation for using an email server in the EXACT same manner as her predecessor, Colin Powell. Do you think he should be investigated too? He helped her set it up, you know. There are no laws against it, and while it was definitely not smart, there is no evidence that any sensitive information was hacked or handed over to foreign authorities. Unlike the official State Department email servers, I might add, since those are known to be insecure and infiltrated. Much of what was classified was done so after the fact, and points to our obsession with overclassifying things more than anything else. She is very clearly not a spy, because classified information never got out of the hands it was supposed to be in.

            DOMA was awful. No question. It was a travesty then, and it will always be a blot on her husband’s record. I fail to see why she should be tarred with it, though- she wasn’t really involved with it, because she’d been burned by trying to provide a health care plan previously. She was a homophobe in the past, but I believe people can change and grow when presented with evidence that shows their prior positions to be wrong. Is she a vanguard of change when it comes to LGBT issues? Absolutely not. Is she a supporter of LGBT rights now? Yes.

            That being said, I do require some solid evidence of change. Clinton has embraced the LGBT community, apologized for DOMA and DADT even though they weren’t her laws, and is actively involved in trying to make life better for LGBT folks. Trump, on the other hand? Trump called Mexicans rapists and tried to use Mexican descent to disqualify a judge from hearing a case of his. He wants to ban Muslims from entering the country. He used anti-Semitic rhetoric and imagery in his campaign. He referred to African Americans as “the African Americans”, which is a very dehumanizing way of talking about anyone. He gave credence to, and quoted from, and retweeted, from white supremacist websites and “facts”. So I could absolutely believe that Trump had changed his mind about race … if he’d shown one iota of evidence for it. If he admitted prior fault, apologized, and gave any indication that he’d learned something, that would be a good start. He didn’t, and he won’t, because he hasn’t actually changed.

            What makes you think otherwise, Toni? What evidence do you have?

          • Melissa Wickersham

            Toni, we will NOT be okay! The damage to science and health in America will be devastating. The Republicans will actively ignore global warming, pollution, and other environmental catastrophes.

            The human species will destroy itself if the damage to the biosphere is not stopped.

            The human species will destroy itself if global warming isn’t stopped or mitigated/lessened.

            The extremist conservatives, hard right-wingers and the Republicans will destroy the ecology and biosphere of the planet Earth. They will deny that humanity is causing mass extinctions.

          • MaineJen

            I assume you’re a woman, Toni. With Pence making the policy for the next 4 years, we may not have control over our own bodies for much longer.

          • Daleth

            Are you still feeling that way now that he’s named a white supremacist as his chief of staff?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You’ve been conned. You fell for the lies of a buffoon who considers blue collar workers to be losers. Sadly, the joke’s on you.

          • Daleth

            Heck, she didn’t just refuse to acknowledge them, she openly mocked them.

            Uh, when?

          • Roadstergal

            Yes. The alt-right neo-nazis who photoshopped Trump as Hilter gassing the daughter of a Never Trumper would have switched their votes to the Jewish guy.

          • Toni35

            You really think they decided this election?

            That’s why you lost.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “… would have switched their votes to the Jewish guy.

            No, not the neo-nazis. But they are not the average Republican. My parents are are both loyal Republicans. But they both stayed home on election night out of disgust. They would never vote for Trump. But they would never vote for Clinton either. They view her as deeply unethical. Back when Sanders was still in it, I asked my dad if there was any chance he would vote for Sanders if the other option was Trump. His reply was that he disagreed with every one of his policy positions, but that he was an honest, good man and that if faced with that situation he would vote for him. Not sure how many other people are like my dad, but I would guess a larger number than those who are neo-nazis.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, and don’t forget that he’s a self-described socialist. That’s would have gone over real well with the middle America moderates and conservatives.

          • fiftyfifty1

            ” he’s a self-described socialist”

            It does seem unlikely on paper, but in real life I think it is possible it may have worked. Like I wrote below, my dad, a middle America conservative, said he would vote for Sanders if the alternative were Trump. He did laugh and say something like “I can’t believe I’m in the position of seriously considering a hippie socialist, but I am.”

            Both he and my mother ended up staying home on election day.

          • Nick Sanders

            And that’s cool of your dad, but I have doubts that such an attitude is common.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “I have doubts that such an attitude is common.”

            I agree. “Loyal-Republican-Never-Trumpers-but-Willing to-Vote-for-Bernie-out-of-a-Sense-of-Morals” types can’t possibly be more than 1% of the population. But there might have been a few other 1% groups willing to vote for Sanders, and adding them up could have been enough. We will never know, it’s all Monday morning quarterbacking.

          • Toni35

            Maybe not. But plenty of Independents would have opted for Sanders. Not to mention a number of Sanders supporter who ended up voting third party (mostly Green) rather than for Hillary. My sister is in that camp. She voted for Jill Stein, but she would have voted for Sanders.

          • FallsAngel

            Sanders would never have been elected, IMO. First off, he wasn’t a Democrat until shortly before he decided to run; he hadn’t “paid his dues” so to speak. He’s gone back to being an Independent. I’m not all for supporting whoever the DNC decides to run, but you’ve gotta have a little more party loyalty than that!

            Secondly, his views were not examined like they would have been if he’d been the candidate to run against Trump. I can just imagine what Trump would’ve called HIM, probably something like “Communist Bernie”. I think Trump would have killed him, figuratively.

            I agree though, it’s all Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

          • FEDUP MD

            I’m a libertarian and my husband a Republican. If Sanders ran against Trump we would have voted for Sanders. I completely disagree with all of Bernie’s policies but I believe he is a good and principled man who wants what he thinks is best for the country. I have believed that about just about every candidate in my adult life to date, until now. Our current president elect has no principles or morals, and will say or do anything only in service of himself, not the country. I’d far rather we went the realm of socialism than a country where minorities are afraid for their lives.

        • FallsAngel

          I agree. And being from Pennsylvania, albeit the “progressive” part (Pittsburgh suburbs), I got fed up with all this “Pennsylbama” stuff too, not just from the candidates but from the media. Maybe even more from the media, really.

  • Pck

    So, the media spent 15 months creating the demon of Trump. Now they say everyone is scared of this demon Trump. Wow.

    • Who?

      The media reported what he said. Obviously many people liked it, believing they would never be coloured, or foreign, or poor, or gay, or have a grabbable pussy, and that no one they care about would either.

      Let’s see how that goes.

      • N

        I wonder too, how media could have invented all what he said. If they had done some weird cut and paste to create those sentences, someone would have noticed? No, he actually said things against women, poor, gay, coloured, immigrants, mexicans,… and even if he didn’t mean them, part of those who voted for him and believe they are superior because white, male, with a job, and a gun,… will think they have “their” man now in charge. And they probably think that now at least they are free to do whatever they want. And that could become a problem.
        Like Bofa on the Sofa wrote further down, “Black lives don’t matter and neither do their votes” as a grafiti on a wall, and worse things. Does the world really need more of that?

        • Who?

          Exactly.

      • Verboten

        To be real, people didn’t vote for Trump, they voted against Hillary.

        • Who?

          So Americans have done this to spite Hilary Clinton? I’ve heard the ‘it’s all the lefties’ fault’ thing so often, but it still makes me smile every time.

          Right wingers claim to be the grownups, with all the gritty reality at their fingertips, but they just can’t take responsibility.

          Pathetic.

          • Verboten

            Everyone is human, brother. We may joust back and forth, but in the end, we are stuck on this rock together. You should try to take olive branches more readily.

          • Who?

            You can shove your olive branch. Disagreement is healthy. I will disagree with your shallow, empty, greedy and immoral values as long as I live.

            You need not only to win, but to have everyone agree with you too. That will never happen.

            Go back to whatever fascist echo chamber you came out of. You can tell them all how you bested the regressives at Dr Amy’s site. Then they can come and read what you posted, and our responses. And if one or two start to wonder, and question, well that will be a good thing.

          • Verboten

            Oh, and I forgot to mention one other thing we voted against, the regressive left. Trump may be arrogant and boisterous, but he is about to become the American hammer. Your pathetic country is about to start paying for our defense of it, or you are on your own.

          • Who?

            You need access to our landmass and ocean for your satellites and defence. We’ll be just fine.

          • Verboten

            Haha, we don’t need anything from you. We can just take it.

          • Who?

            But will the people we help you protect yourselves from now allow you to take it? They have some pretty good weapons and capability of their own, you know.

            We might end up the meat in the sandwich, of course, but if you want to go to war (not you personally, of course, your life is far to precious to put on the line for the country you claim to love so much) then that will happen.

            But how to pay for it, since taxes are bad…

          • Verboten

            “But how to pay for it, since taxes are bad…”

            Spoken like the sheltered coward that you are. It is Americans that fight and bleed, not governments and bureaucrats. As we speak, American volunteers are fighting ISIS, doing the job Obama should have handled long ago.

            Anyway, the major threats to the USA are Russia and China. Seems like Russia wants to play nice and China is still developing her military and is not prepared for an engagement. The reality is that we are not going to decide military matters based upon the regressives idiots. As much as you deserve to eat your tripe, we are not going to put American lives at risk.

          • Who?

            Hang on, Obama was never a soldier.

            And yes, soldiers are volunteers, not conscripts, but they are paid, and housed, and educated, and given health care while they are enlisted. Perhaps they love it, perhaps it’s a steady job.

            Russia playing nice will be Mr Putin allowing Donald to apply his own lube. And China? They will eat America for breakfast the day they call in their loans. If Donald is the guy in charge when that happens, it’s on him.

          • Daleth

            Russia playing nice will be Mr Putin allowing Donald to apply his own lube.

            HIGH FIVE. Best comment ever.

          • Who?

            Well thanks.

            I’m enjoying Verboten. He’s now moved into selective quoting, so the endgame is quite close.

          • Verboten

            “Hang on, Obama was never a soldier.”

            Ah yes, the idiot doesn’t know the USA founded and funded ISIS and Al Qaeda. Beautiful. You can’t make this stuff up.

            “And yes, soldiers are volunteers”

            No, idiot, they are over there without US backing, of their own freewill. It’s like you live in a tiny box with leftist propaganda blaring in your ears.

            “And China? They will eat America for breakfast the day they call in their loans”
            They are free to show up and cash in whenever they want ๐Ÿ˜€

          • Who?

            They won’t show up. They will speak quietly to US banks, businesses and other key players, after many attempts at negotiation, and when there is no other choice. It will probably happen so quietly hardly anyone will notice until it’s done.

            The Chinese are far to subtle and elegant to come to the front door.

          • Verboten

            I love how people pull out the US debt as a problem. We can afford it. And, this is after a disastrous couple of decades.

            The Chinese hopefully will rise up against their leaders and join the modern world.

          • Who?

            Oh so debt is no problem now? Even government debt? Do get your story straight.

            The Chinese government is working hard to keep people happy, to avoid just what you are speaking of. You’d be smart to support them in that, unless you want another unstable super power in the world. And I wouldn’t be too sure the people of China would see the world quite how you do, so their joining of the modern world might not be as comforting an experience for you as you seem to imagine.

            Or is that just me being a spoilt regressive loser idiot (ie someone who disagrees with you) again?

          • Verboten

            “Oh so debt is no problem now?”
            If we halt regressive policies NOW we would handle the debt no problem.

            “The Chinese government is working hard to keep people happy”
            With mobile execution vans and the new 2 child policy. Yea, wonderful government they have over there. I actually like Xi, but they are comparing him to Mao, the great murderer of 80 million of his own people.

            As for “joining the modern world”, at least the people in Hong Kong are desperate for it.

            Oh, and, lol…
            “The U.S. Government gave a total of $23255200 to Canada in 2012.”
            http://us-foreign-aid.insidegov.com/q/30/1590/How-much-money-does-the-U-S-give-to-Canada

    • demodocus

      actually, i have thought he was a nasty man since his first divorce and bankruptcy

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Yeah, there is actually an important aspect missing to the discussions about Trump. Yeah, it’s true that he has no respect for women or minorities, but there is a bigger issue: he has no respect for ANYONE!

        Military? No respect at all. He knows more than the generals. POWs are losers because they got caught. Religious? Well, he doesn’t like the Pope, that’s for sure.

        Oh, I know. He has respect for the little man, right? The poor, down trodden middle american white folks who have suffered under Obama? Yeah, he has a lot of respect for hard working, small business owners. You know, the ones who he gets to work for him and then stiffs them when it comes to payment? He has so little respect for small businesses that he won’t honor contracts.

        The only people he appears to respect are Vlad Putin and the guy from North Korea.

        He is indeed a nasty person. It’s not just that he is racist or sexist, it’s that he has no respect for anyone other than himself.

    • MB

      LOLOLOL. If you take a video tape, and video tape Trump’s vitriol, and then publish that video tape of Trump’s actual words coming out of his actual mouth, is that really reporting???? I think you’re giving a little too much credit to the media, when they didn’t have to do a whole lot. I mean, Trump keeps crying about how the media is unfair. HE SAID THESE THINGS. HE DID THESE THINGS. HE PROMISED THESE THINGS that have people terrified. I watched the videos with my very own eyes! I heard his voice promise horrible things! I saw notorious KKK devotee (and former Grand Wizard) David Duke say he supported TRUMP and his policies. The media didn’t have to tell me to be terrified of Trump, all I had to do was listen.

      Oh, oh — but all that is really so unfair. What’s the next step, gag the media from FACTUAL REPORTING????? Haha, if there’s one thing we know about Trump, he hates facts.

  • baileylamb

    Okay stay with me. I’m trying to find my husband recession proof work abroad. This isn’t some whine by a sore loser or a brat. History, especially the American Race relations part, was my 2nd major. I’m black, and I know my family’s history well (they left the country for 4 years during the Civil War bc they, rightly were afraid of Confederate raids).

    I believe in America and democracy (ok democratic republicanism) but I’m not going to bet my kids life or fulfilling, happy, future on people actually preventing a slide in rights for people like me (or others). Sorry, not sorry, I know this country’s history too well.

    I could go on, but countless times in our history we’ve kicked out the onmigrants, and then restricted the movement and job opportunities of African Americans (and Native Americans). Some cities or counties have been islands of relative tolerance, bit I don’t want to live in a “green zone”.

    So if anyone has any leads you can contact me, and I truly hope this time is different, but I know my family stayed alive by leaving. Hopefully (and I do have hope) this will be the last time we will ever have to leave.

    • demodocus

      no leads but i wish you good luck

      • baileylamb

        Thanks.

    • Ophelia

      The most obvious answer is Mexico but for some reason no one who wants to turn the USA into Mexican wants to move there. Such a mystery.

      • baileylamb

        We are looking into Mexico.

      • baileylamb

        Also, you don’t understand my valid fear do you? Have you stopped seeing those who disagree with you as worthy?

        Believe you are close to a line, one day you may cross it and from there you’ll be surprised what you will approve of.

        I’m leaving bc I don’t have much hope that you won’t cross that line. Prove me wrong.

        • Octavia

          I crossed that line far ago when white children were demonized in schools built a land paid for by hard working when men simply for being white. It is love of my children, who will grow to be proud of their heritage at my hand, that motivates me.

          I hope they are equally merciless in defense of their own.

          • baileylamb

            Hey get a load of what people have empowered. A whiney historical illeterate ijit.
            Move back to Europe. Duh.
            @ Mods can we deport the neo nazi?

          • Octavia

            Lol! The best part is that Bernie would have won. Think about that.

            Keep calling us illiterate NAZIs for loving our heritage & offspring. That forged the nascent white identity in the first place. Do Israelis not love Jews above all else?

          • baileylamb

            Move, or regret it later. Move to Russia, but move while you have the chance.

    • N

      Perhaps the new place you find will please you more that the US and you don’t even want to go back.
      What would be your first choice?

      • baileylamb

        Whatever is best for my children.

    • Daleth

      Did you look into emigrating to Canada? It’s possible to immigrate there without having a job first, if you fit in certain educational/professional categories, and also like everywhere else it’s possible to get a job there and immigrate on that basis.

      I’ve always thought life must be better for black people in Canada because they never had slavery; they were the promised land that American slaves tried to escape to.

      • baileylamb

        Not true. Black ppl tried to immigrate after Jim Crow. Many brought land but after a few communities were set up Canada stopped letting Black American immigrate. At the time there were 7 million African Americans and like 8 million Canadians. Right now there are 40 million African Americans. Obviously we can’t all go to Canada.

      • Azuran

        I think life is probably better than in America for POC. But it’s obviously not perfect. We have racists and biggots here too.

        • Daleth

          Based on what facts do you think life is better in the US for POC? Have you looked up any of the following to compare the American vs. Canadian stats:
          – Poverty rates and income brackets among POC
          – Violent crime rates among POC
          – Police shootings among POC
          – Educational achievement rates among POC
          – Health measures among POC

          I could go on, but those factors would be a good start in trying to determine where life is better.

          • Azuran

            No I don’t, and have no plans of really looking it up as I was simply sharing my opinion. Mainly it’s based on the fact that basically every one here gets free healthcare (that also covers abortion and contraceptive) and way more affordable education, we have a much lower violent crime rate, a lot less police shooting and a lot less of gun violence.
            I think life in general here offers more support and opportunities than it does in the USA for lower income people. Which are indeed more likely to be POC. But I don’t think it’s perfect in any way.

          • Daleth

            Oh, I misunderstood–thought you were saying life was better in the US for POC. Which makes no sense.

          • Azuran

            XD
            I think it’s sadly something very hard to evaluate. It really depends on the neighbourhood in which city, in which province/state. A POC living in the most diverse city of the USA probably has it easier than one living in an isolated Canadian village full of racists. (because yea, we have those places as well) I don’t really think we can find the answer in statistics.

  • ~ liz ~

    It’s surprising how intelligent, educated people mistake a populist for a reactionary, or even a conservative. Set aside the caricature the media and the Clinton campaign painted for a moment. This is the ad that ran in PA, MI, and OH during the final days. This is the message that won.

    https://youtu.be/vST61W4bGm8

    • Nick Sanders

      Good lord, was the first half of that ever loaded with racist dogwhistling.

      • ~ liz ~

        Sure, Nick. Did you crib that from HuffPo?

        This is why Democrats lost. State houses, governorships, the U.S. Congress, everything; it was a rout. Instead of a cogent response it’s “oh there’s secret subliminal messages” that only special snowflakes can hear.

        • Nick Sanders

          No, I just watched it for the first time a few minutes ago. And as I did, I noticed that at the beginning, when he was talking about the good people, it was a bunch of white faces, then when he talks about the evil elite, it’s a bunch of foreign and non-white people being shown.

          Also, learn the difference between subliminal messaging and dogwhistling.

          • ~ liz ~

            I’m familiar with the difference, and I watched the same video watching for the same things.

            What normal people hear and see is anti-establishment, anti-corruption. Railing against this straw man you’ve created didn’t work, won’t work and that’s just fine. Please, don’t change a thing.

          • Nick Sanders

            Is it a strawman to point out he was endorsed by the KKK and American Nazi Party? I’m clearly not the only person who heard something.

          • ~ liz ~

            That might have some merit if Trump actively solicited those endorsements or advertised he was endorsed by those groups. He did not.

            For someone who’s usually quite logical, the obvious association fallacy surprises me.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s the point of a dogwhistle. To COVERTLY attract undesirable groups without OVERTLY soliciting them, so you don’t drive away people who dislike those groups.

    • Brooke Dunne
      • hyperzombie

        LOL

    • Squirrelly

      While there is nothing illogical about a hurting middle America wanting to reclaim jobs and give their families a bright future, what makes them think Trump can deliver? He is big on what he wants to do but very light on how. What little he economic platform he has discussed centers on massive tax cuts for the rich and the whole trickle down thing, his “six guys named Steve” economic advisor board was made up of Wall Street guys, and already the news is suggesting he is pulling in industry heads and lobbyists and banking people to flesh out his policies. Um, these are the same guys he just vilified in this ad?? Because magically now Goldman Sachs will have the interests of the little guy in mind? I don’t understand how anyone can imagine that Trump’s presidency will be anything except a windfall for corporations and the elite.

      • Who?

        Trump’s utter cynicism is his least attractive quality. He has ruthlessly lied to and manipulated people he will happily grind under his heel. It will be interesting who he blames when he fails to do what he has promised.

        • Squirrelly

          I don’t even think he lied. He has been signaling exactly who he is and what he plans to do with a giant gold flashing sign. Like in the debate he practically said I am going to help the rich by lowering their taxes.

          • Who?

            I take your point-but someone’s already been on saying they are not now planning the wholesale deportation of muslims from the US. Was the promise to do that a lie, or just a brain snap?

            Either way, he is entirely cynical.

          • Squirrelly

            He was walking back and forth on the Muslim thing even before the end of the campaign. I agree he is entirely cynical and self serving. And isn’t that what he was telegraphing to everyone the entire campaign? That he is uncommited to anything but his own interests? He has had no problem saying something on record only to retract it, also on record, moments later.

            I am doubtful he will follow through on some of his more logistically difficult ideas like the wall or mass bans or deportation. I do think he will fill his cabinet with industry insiders and special interests who will fill the giant gaps in his policy details with agendas that favor themselves.

          • ~ liz ~

            This is true. Trump said quite a few things during the campaign which are completely at odds with his public statements just a few years ago.

          • demodocus

            oh, he lied left and right, but they where so blatant for people who don’t have a kneejerk mistrust of the media

      • LeighW

        Why would they trust a man who’s time and time again screwed over everyone he could to make a buck.

        Yes things needed fixing, but when they saw a rat in the barn they didn’t hire an exterminator, they hired a demolitionist

        • Roadstergal

          “There’s a rat in the barn. Let’s hire a hippo to shit over everything and knock the barn down.”

          • LeighW

            And how the hell did he become Mr Family Values for the Christian conservatives? Adultery, divorce, 5 kids with 3 women, doesn’t pay taxes…

            If that were anyone other than a rich white man they’d be screaming that he was exactly “what’s wrong with this country!”

          • MaineJen

            “Oh but god chooses flawed people to do his work sometimes” or some shit like that. There’s always a way to justify it if you look through your bible hard enough.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Make no mistake, the so-called “values voters” in this election made it very clear what values they support.

            This election really exposed evangelical christians for the immoral hypocrites they are.

            I loved that survey of “how important is the moral character for President” by the NYT, comparing 2011 and 2016. Back in 2011, 70% of the fundy christians said it was very important. This year, it was only 30%. So much for standards, right?

            Meanwhile, for the atheists and non-religious? The value they put on moral character didn’t change.

            So telling.

  • niteseer

    My sincere wish is that Trump’s age, diet, and lifestyle practices catch up with him before he is ever sworn in. Failing that, any time in the next four years, the sooner the better.

    • namaste863

      then we get stuck with Mike Pence. That isn’t much of an improvement.

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        Pence is actually WAY worse in many ways, rabidly antiabortion, in March this year, he signed a bill that,required all fetal remains to be buried or cremated โ€“ including those that come from miscarriages โ€“ and introduced a ban on abortion for reasons of genetic anomaly.

        The bill, which was seen as too extreme even for Republicans, was branded โ€˜one of the most vicious omnibus anti-abortion bills the United States has ever seenโ€™ by the National Network of Abortion Funds.

        He signed off on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which gave businesses in Indiana the right to refuse
        service to LGBT people on the grounds of their religion.

        Pence even, at one point, proposed diverting crucial federal funds away from HIV treatment and prevention โ€“ investing, instead, in gay conversion “therapies”

        Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/09/who-is-mike-pence-donald-trumps-vice-president-6245492/#ixzz4PhluhZ00

        • Roadstergal

          And Pence is the president in any real way. Trump enjoys being The Big Man and letting his underlings handle all the details. The presidency will be no different. He wants adoring crowds and the White House and rides on Air Force One and trips to be feted in cool foreign lands.

          Ironically, considering his supporters’ rants, he wants to mooch off of the public teat.

      • Daleth

        It’s not an improvement at all. It would be much worse. Trump probably picked Pence as a life-insurance policy to deter opponents from assassinating him!

        • Who?

          Pence is a crusader who thinks he’s right with God.

          The worst kind.

  • Box of Salt

    No, Not OT:
    Tomorrow, Nov 11th, in the United States is Veteran’s Day – a holiday that commemorates those who served in “The War To End All Wars.” That war which we know call World War ONE.

    Regardless of where you live or how you voted in your most recent election, please show respect for those who put others before themselves and served.

    • Box of Salt

      ^NOW Call
      from teh queen of typos. Yeah I left that in there on purpose.

  • BeatriceC

    Here’s what I wrote on my Facebook page yesterday, inspired by what OK said to me earlier in the day:

    To my boys: You are wonderful young men. You’ve been raised to love, not hate. You will soon be adults; mere months for one of you. You are coming of age during a frightening time. But you are privileged. You are white, male, well educated, and middle class. Even when we were homeless, you enjoyed advantages a great many others can’t even begin to imagine. The hate we see openly expressed today will not affect you, but it will affect your friends. Be brave, my wonderful young men. Act with courage and conviction. Use your privilege to fight for what’s right. Speak openly about combating hate and be heard in a way your mother never will. Stand with your non white, non Christian, non straight friends. If you get arrested standing up for what is right, I will support you. If protests turn violent and you make the ultimate sacrifice, I will mourn you as a hero. You have overcome many challenges already in your young lives. Your greatest challenge is about to begin.

    They (verbally, to me, but not in writing because none of them are all that active on FB) responded “Challenge Accepted”

    • MB

      I just keep thinking about Hillary’s concession speech. She said, “It is ALWAYS worth it to do the right thing.”

    • Box of Salt

      Thank you, BeatriceC.

  • guest

    A group of us are trying to bring the #SafteyPin movement to the US. Same meaning, different country.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/good-news/2016/06/29/safety-pins-used-to-fight-racism-and-show-solidarity-with-immigr/

  • Madtowngirl

    I’m sorry everyone, I haven’t read through all the comments, but I posted a long diatribe on my site yesterday, and I’ll summarize it for you…

    I’m tired of people telling me to calm down. I have friends who are literally scared for their lives. A friend of mine was on his way to work, and encountered a man with sign saying, “Thank God Trump will help us get rid of fags.” My (legal) immigrant friends and family are being screamed at to “go back to Mexico.” My gay friends are rushing to get married before their right to do so is lost. Others are considering going back in the closet because they no longer feel safe being out.

    Until this shit stops, don’t tell me to calm down.

    • Gatita

      A-fucking-men

    • MB

      My husband works with two gay people at work. They both (separately) and without knowledge of the other confided to him that it’s only a matter of time before they start hauling away the gays and throwing them in detention camps or worse.

      • Madtowngirl

        That’s terrible.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Graffiti in North Carolina: “Black lives don’t matter and neither do their votes”

      Calm down?

      Really?

      • Madtowngirl

        Only upvoting for sentiment. That’s horrible.

      • MB

        It’s Nazi Germany, I tell you, the whole thing.

      • MaineJen

        The “PC culture has gone too far” crowd feel they can do anything now. Anything.

        • Maud Pie

          I’m a free speech advocate and I believe there are some legitimate complaints about instances of over-zealous applications of political correctness. I was a law student before sex positive feminism became a thing, and I was once shouted down when I argued that a male coworker’s viewing of porn in his own home on his own time did not constitute sexual harassment of female coworkers unless he did something that affected the workplace or his coworkers. But the Trump supporters aren’t attempting to engage in good faith dialogue about the line between truly offensive expression and envelope-pushing. They just want unabashed abuse without consequences.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          The “PC culture has gone too far” crowd feel they can do anything now. Anything.

          But don’t call them racists, because that will hurt their fee-fees.

          • baileylamb

            Exactly.

      • Verboten

        Where were you when BLM activists were marching in NYC calling for the deaths of the police?

        • attitude devant
          • Verboten

            I watched the video, genius. I really hate the millennials that have access to so much information but instead of looking up any core evidence, they rely on snopes and wikipedia.

            Watch the videos for yourself:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVkBV_uunoI

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Considering your interpretation of the Clinton recording about “laughing about keeping the child rapist out of jail” I don’t care what you have seen for yourself.

          • Verboten

            I could very well say the same thing about you, sociopath.

          • Who?

            You’re pretty grouchy for someone who identifies as a winner.

            But then, winning isn’t enough, is it? You want everyone to agree with you as well.

          • Verboten

            No, I just can’t stand the cowardice of evil. If your system is so wonderful, why don’t you just come out of the shadows with it?

          • Who?

            What?

            All we’ve heard from the Trumpets is how the world is now run by soft cocks and weirdos and he will fix it.

            Now the accusation is that those people are undercover?

            I guess it’s difficult to see your own conflicting positions brought to light.

          • Verboten

            I’m happy to see that your initial idiocy holds true in all of your comments.

          • Pck

            The media pushed the myth of the monster Trump for 15 months – they have to validate their efforts now.

          • Who?

            The media report his behaviour-should they not?

          • Nick Sanders

            What system? What shadows?

          • Verboten

            You don’t have a clue.

          • Nick Sanders

            Not my fault you’re being vague.

          • Verboten

            No, it is your fault for buying into popular hype and being unable to assert your intelligence to arrive at some semblance of the truth.

          • Nick Sanders

            Assert? Some semblance of truth? I asked questions, jackass, trying to find out what the hell you were talking about.

          • Verboten

            You hop into the middle of my conversation with someone else like you know something? Go play, kid.

          • Nick Sanders

            Like I know something? No, that’s why I asked a fucking question.

          • Verboten

            Go hop in somewhere else, jackass.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You don’t have a clue.”
            That seems to be your rote “reponse”… when you haven’t got a response, that is.

          • Verboten

            No, it is my response when the person doesn’t have a clue. Do keep up.

            You have no idea the world you live, you know nothing about society and what supports it, you have no idea about history nor who wrote it. You are a regurgitator of pop culture factoids i.e. a brainwashed idiot.

          • Guest

            “Men,” Colonel Cargill began in Yossarian’s squadron, measuring his pauses carefully. “You’re American officers. The officers of no other army in the world can make that statement. Think about it.”

            Sergeant Knight thought about it and then politely informed Colonel Cargill that he was addressing the enlisted men and that the officers were to be found waiting for him on the other side of the squadron. Colonel Cargill thanked him crisply and glowed with self-satisfaction as he strode across the area. It made him proud to observe that twenty-nine months in the service had not blunted his genius for ineptitude.

          • Mike Stevens

            Says the person who thinks all medical treatment works by “mimicking the human body’s defences”.
            Nuff said.

          • Verboten

            Oh yea, enough said. You have soundly proven you are a nitwit. Good job.

          • Guest

            “You see what I mean?” asked Clevinger. “He has antisocial aggressions.”

            “Oh, shut up,” Dunbar told Clevinger. Dunbar liked Clevinger because Clevinger annoyed him and made the time go slow.

          • attitude devant

            They are not calling for the deaths of cops, cf, the msnbc article. You’re just an asshole crank, and I’m an actual doctor taking care of actual pregnant women, so I’m just gonna sign off here.

          • Verboten

            You are an idiot, not surprised at all by your response. You literally have the truth in front of you, so you turn around and say you don’t see anything. Disgusting.

          • Who?

            Please don’t feel you need to waste your valuable time here.

          • Verboten

            Why? Because you said so? Think I’ll set up my tent here for awhile then.

          • Who?

            Great-better here than out where you might have some actual influence.

          • Verboten

            Oh, don’t worry, on the internet I can have more than one tent ๐Ÿ˜€

          • Who?

            My that’s impressive.

            Not just anyone can have many tents on the internet.

            ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • Verboten

            I like you, but I still don’t trust you ๐Ÿ˜€

          • Mishimoo

            They’re very in-tents?

          • Who?

            In tinfoil.

            Dealing w the yuge conspiracies.

            Bigly.

          • attitude devant

            Did you read the article? Those are not BLM protesters and the BLM has disavowed them. And I’m not a millenial. I’m old enough to be your grandmother.

          • Verboten

            I am happy that there are people that have disavowed that, but you are acting like no one has ever said ridiculous stuff under the banner of BLM.

            And, in my world, millennial = sheltered. So, you match my assessment.

          • LaMont

            One BLM person says something bad, and the whole movement is tarnished. “Some KKK lunatics” support Trump and he’s smelling like roses. Makes sense!

          • Verboten

            One BLM? What a moron! Haha, I love how blatantly dishonest you are. Makes for a good showing to the people.

          • LaMont

            Sorry, maybe it’s more than one. But your threshold for when to punish BLM seemed to be after the first one. Glad to clarify!

          • Verboten

            Oh, the idiot goes on and on…missing point after point…no surprises here. Just another pseudointellectual.

          • Azuran

            You can’t just randomly decide on your own to change the meaning of words. Millennial is not = sheltered. It has a real definition you moron.

          • Verboten

            It basically means sheltered. A strong, independent youth is never disparagingly called a millennial. This is the beauty of language, I can call you a balloon to make a point even though it is clear that you are not a balloon. You were acting like a millennial, so I called you one. Deal with it.

          • Mishimoo

            Ahahahahaha oh dear. No, that’s not how it works.

            I am a millennial by definition and I have been called a millennial as an insult because people would much rather judge based on appearance than talk to millennials and find out where they actually fit into society, let alone find out if they’re “strong, independent youths”. It’s an easy throwaway insult used by everyone from the media to bogans, and yet: you still can’t use it correctly.

          • Azuran

            I’m not actually the one you called a millennial. But it’s not like I expected you to be able to follow a conversation for more than 30 seconds. I am, however indeed a milenial.
            But if you had educated yourself in any way, you’d know that millennials are actually more liberal and much more open to the world. Which is totally the opposite of sheltered.

          • Verboten

            You clearly do not know the definition of the word sheltered.

          • Azuran

            I know the REAL definition. But I admit to not knowing what stupid unrelated definition you decided that it has.

          • Verboten

            No, you clearly do not know the definition. The entire regressive left is as sheltered as it gets. An entire generation raised by Youtube. I bet the phrase “dirt under your fingernails” means nothing to you…

          • Azuran

            It doesn’t, because I’m not American and it’s an American thing. I could pick up any phrase from where I live and it would mean nothing to you. Which means nothing about being sheltered (But as a millennial, open the the world, I checked out what it means)

            Please tell me how you think I am a sheltered person. I’m curious, reading all the stupid things you’d come up with would be so entertaining.

          • Verboten

            It is easy to determine who is sheltered and who is not. Anyone asking for a handout from the government is sheltered. You have no idea what it really means to work and produce something of value. You grew up spoiled and you think that the world should continue to spoil you. You are a sheltered brat.

          • Azuran

            As your loved Trump says: WRONG
            I grew up poor. My parents bought their first house when I was 5. Before that, despite my two parents working full time, we lived in shitty apartments and moved every year in shitty neighbours. And when I was 7 my parents went bankrupt and we lost everything.
            Despite all this, my parents were never on welfare. They worked hard for every single penny they earned.
            And after they got separated. I took care of my two younger sibling every single evening while my mom worked 2 jobs. Never receiving welfare.
            I worked hard through all my years of school, to get high enough grades to be accepted in vet school. I also had part time jobs during college and university. Still, I had to take loans. I’m also the first one in my entire family to ever go to university.
            As soon as I graduated, I got a job and i have been working full time ever since. Everything I own today was bough with money I earned while working. I pay all of my taxes. I’ve never been on welfare, and I get lots of dirt, blood and even feces under my nails, I have many scars on my hands and arms from working.
            My dad also gets more dirt under his fingernails in a week than you will ever
            get in your entire life. And yet he makes barely enough to get by, he never made enough to safe up anything for his retirement. When the time comes that he can’t physically keep working, I’m going to be financially supporting him, because no, the government is not going to give him a handout.

            So no, if anyone here is ‘sheltered’ it’s you.

          • Verboten

            Right, and what are your stances on the economy? Gun rights? Abortion rights?

            Your stance on the economy is the same as a spoiled brat, stealing in the name of “charity”. A proven method to destroy economies.

            Your stance on gun rights is to take guns away from free people, removing their ability to protect themselves. The stuff of fairy tales…criminals, unfortunately, do not believe in fairy tales.

            Abortion rights and the death penalty paradox. Kill the unborn baby, even up to the second before birth, but save the murdering rapists because execution is “heartless”.

            Yea, sheltered. Or, perhaps you have a mental illness?

          • Azuran

            That’s still not the definition of sheltered. Do YOU have a mental illness?

            First of: DUE DATE ABORTION ARE NOT A THING. Those are birth. You are an uneducated idiot if you thing those exists, I suggest you get yourself educated on the matter by someone else than Donald Trump. Late term abortion occurs when a baby has a congenital illness not compatible with life or when a mother’s life is at risk and the baby is not old enough to survive outside the womb (when the baby is old enough, they induce birth, they don’t abort) No one EVER had a late term abortion for fits and giggles.

            I support choice and reproductive right. It’s not up to an 70 years old dude to decide what I can and can’t do with my Uterus. It’s for me and my OB to decide together what is best for my health and my unborn child’s health. You want to reduce abortion? Make birth control more affordable and available. Which is what my country has done. And look at that, my country has not been swallowed by Satan or depravity since abortion was legalized. (legalizing gay marriage hasn’t change anything either)

            Gun control doesn’t mean taking all the guns away, it means having sensible rules about them. Both my parents are hunter, they have hunting rifles. We can have guns. But there is no intelligent reason whatsoever for someone to want to have assault rifles or have 15 guns in their house, or drive around with one in their cars. You don’t need to bring a gun with you at wall-mart. I need a licence to drive, why would it be stupid to have one to own a gun? And obviously people with criminal records shouldn’t be getting guns. Sure, criminals can still find a way, but it’s WAY harder for them if you can’t just buy a gun at Wall-mart, so fewer of them actually have guns and the guns they do manage to get are less dangerous. Waiting 24h before purchasing a gun is nothing outrageous. Oh, and look at that, OUR gun violence (and also police shooting) is basically nonexistent next to your. And we haven’t been taken over by ISIS either.

            The death penalty doesn’t work. I understand the emotions behind wanting it. But economically it costs more than life without parole, so few people are actually in death row that it’s not having an effect on prison overpopulation, and it’s also not effective in preventing crime. We don’t have it, and look at that, our crime rates are much lower than yours.

            You’ll have to explain what kind of stealing you are talking about in economy. I’m not stealing, and no one is stealing from me. Our economy is also doing better than yours last time I checked. Probably because our young adults are not buried up to their neck in student debts, and we don’t have ridiculous health care debts to pay off.

            All in all, I’d say my situation is so much better than yours.

          • Verboten

            1) I guess you didn’t watch in the debate where Hillary protected the notion of late-term abortions to the last second. I guess you also aren’t aware that one of the few votes Obama made as an Illinois state senator was in defense of partial birth abortion.

            2) We already have sensible guns laws. Furthermore, the 2nd amendment doesn’t exist so you can hunt.

            3) There are definitely deathrow cases where it is beyond any shadow of doubt. It is definitely a deterrent, and comparing crime in the USA with any other country is basically pointless as crime here in the USA is unique to superpowers.

            4) Raising taxes for welfare and entitlements is taking money from my pocket to put into other people’s pockets so you can feel good. Theft is not charity.

            5) Our young people are straddled with student debt because they are gullible idiots who didn’t think about what their degree was actually worth before partying away all of that loan money.

          • maidmarian555

            ‘Crime here is unique to superpowers’. You are aware that the Avengers wasn’t a documentary aren’t you?!?!

          • Azuran

            I absolutely did watch the debate. If you want to have real info on late term abortion, read this: https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2016/10/20/donald-trump-confuses-birth-with-abortion-and-no-there-are-no-ninth-month-abortions/
            Written by an actual OB who did late term abortion. Hillary is not a doctor, she made mistakes when she talked, but it was nothing compared to the level of stupidity and lie Trump said. I don’t care whatever Obama’s stance was and it’s irrelevant to this ‘discussion’

            2) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yea right, ‘sensible’ only to NRA nuts.

            3) But there are many other cases where it’s NOT beyond a doubt. MANY innocent people have been executed.

            4) I pay taxes too, Actually, I pay MORE than you. But I don’t mind. Because unlike you, I can see my own privilege and I’m not an egoistical bastard. People end up needing welfare for multiple reasons, most of them have not chosen this, and it’s not just about welfare, it’s also about education and healthcare. It a decision made by society. We have decided that children should not be let to die of cold in the street.

            5) Just going to roll my eyes at that one. The average American vet students get out of vet school with 10 times the amount of debt that I had. I don’t think their choice of degree was stupid of that they partied any more than I did.

            You are the one who is sheltered and cannot see the reality of the world around him

          • Verboten

            1) I’ve watched a barbaric late-term abortion in action, have you?

            2) Sensible only to NRA nuts? How so? Again, we don’t have guns for hunting, deary. The USA stands between you and a whole lot of hurt. You should consider that.

            3) Right, so we should be very careful and only execute when it is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

            4) You don’t pay more than I do. The USA has been shackled with taxes and regulations to pay for idiotic programs.

            5) The average American vet student can also go anywhere in the world and his/her degree will still be good. And, the degrees are going to continue to get more and more expensive the more we label it “free”.

            The USA is not Canada. If you were in the position on the map where we are and you had even half the number of immigrants that we have, your country would look wildly different. The USA takes in more immigrants than any other country on Earth.

          • Azuran

            Dude, we have the same veterinarian accreditation as you, it’s a North American accreditation, not a USA one. Anywhere your vets can go, so do ours. And no, it’s not everywhere in the world.

            Seeing as we are actually physically located between you and Russia, I don’t think you are actually standing between us and anything.

            Why are you bragging about your immigration while at the same time supporting someone who wan’t to build a wall, ban all Muslim immigration and doesn’t want to take Syrian Refugees?

          • Verboten

            Any degree in the USA is the same, all good everywhere. And, like I pointed out, the only reason why it costs so much is because we are stupidly trying to act like Europe.

            Uhm, haha, yea, we are really depending on the Canadian frontier to stop the Russians…lmao…

            Yea, we take in more immigrants than anywhere else, the least we can ask is that they be legal and actually want to live here not blow themselves up like they keep doing in Europe.

            You have no real idea of what is going on in the world. Pretty sad.

          • Azuran

            You think people are doing abortion on due date. Obviously YOU have no idea of what is going on in the world.
            You where saying that it’s normal for USA vets to have 10x the student loans because they had a ‘better’ certification. To which I told you we have the same certification. So tell me, why is it 10x more?
            Please compare how many people those immigrants have killed compared to how many people your own American citizens have killed.

          • Verboten

            You clearly have no idea how evil abortion is. Botched abortions where the child is born anyway, they will let the child die. At the very least, once the child is viable, if the mother doesn’t want the child, the child should be saved and put up for adoption.

            I already told you why our prices are sky-rocketing, regressive leftist policies. Hopefully we stop it. But, even in the state that it is, not so bad. Anyone in the USA can go to school, period.

            Again, the United States brings in more immigrants than any other country by a huge margin. We need secure borders. Want to hear something ironic? Mexico is considering building a wall on its southern border!!

            Also, the lawless inner cities are the direct result of more regressive leftist policies. These problems are easily fixed. You should watch Milton Friedman, if facts don’t trigger you.

          • Azuran

            But my country is way more liberal than yours. So shouldn’t my fees be higher than yours if it was the fault of regressive leftist? Anyone in Canada can go to school too. And even better, we don’t get out of it with 300k of debts.

          • Verboten

            You don’t have to defend the world nor deal with the largest immigration influx in the world. Social policies like what you have are only possible in the situation you are in. The USA cannot afford it.

          • Azuran

            What does that have to do with the ridiculous debts of your vet student? Absolutely nothing.
            You have a population that is much higher than ours. You just burned BILLIONS in a 2 years long election. You are building planes and tanks and letting them rust in fields. You totally could afford healthcare and free education. You are just really bad at deciding where you put your money. Practically every first world countries out there have public health care, affordable education, paid maternity leave and social security and they are doing absolutely fine. And you want us to believe that you are somehow a ‘special case’ and that all the other country are the ones who are wrong?

          • Verboten

            “You just burned BILLIONS in a 2 years long election”

            Yea, and we didn’t even notice. We are the richest country in the world.

            “Practically every first world countries out there have public health care, affordable education, paid maternity leave and social security and they are doing absolutely fine.”

            Yes, because we pay for your defense, give you money, and sweetheart trade deals. That is about to end.

            We also take in tremendous numbers of immigrants, both legal and illegal. You are comparing apples to oranges.

            “You totally could afford healthcare and free education”

            If it’s free, anyone could afford it, but it isn’t free, is it, genius?

            America is #1 in the world, and it looks like it is going to stay that way. Watch out, the free market is coming.

          • Azuran

            Also, people don’t abort past viability because they don’t want the baby. They do it because either the baby CANT live or is killing the mother. I see you didn’t bother to read the link I posted about late term abortion. Not that I expected you would.

          • Verboten

            If that is the only reason late-term abortions are occurring, no one I know would have a problem with it. Life of the mother is equally as important as the life of the unborn child.

            If you can agree that if a child is viable that we save it, the abortion fight is over.

          • Azuran

            If you had properly educated yourself on the matter instead of regurgitating whatever Trump and the Republican had told you, this discussion wouldn’t have needed to happen.

          • Verboten

            I am “regurgitating” what Hillary and Obama have said about abortion, dopehead.

          • Azuran

            Did you watch the debate? Because Trump said that babies where ripped out of their mother’s womb on due day. Not Hillary. Hillary said it was up to a woman and her doctor to make the best decision for themselves.

          • Verboten

            I don’t care to argue with you on these points. Late-term abortions don’t exist because we fight for them not to exist.

            If you can concede that at viability the unborn child is a person with rights and should be saved, that is the end of the argument. Now it is time to spread that solution and end this vicious debate once and for all.

          • Verboten

            Also, let us be very clear, to hold the nonsensical views that are divorced from reality as you do requires 1 of 3 things.

            1) You are naive/sheltered
            2) You have a mental illness
            3) You are an evil person

            Take your pick, I chose sheltered for you because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

          • Who?

            Donald, it’s you!

          • Azuran

            Actually I’m none of those things. I’m just Canadian.
            All of those things you think are SO impossible and will result in the collapse of the country are reality in Canada. And look at that, we are a pretty good country and we are living very well, we are also very liked around the world.

          • Verboten

            Do you know why America has been failing? Because the regressive left has decided that it should follow the rest of the West right into the ground. Now, that will change, but you are out of your mind if you think you can compare your tiny country to the greatest nation in the history of mankind. You are not safe because your countrymen are tough, you are safe because you live next to the most powerful military in the world. Your idiot views almost did away with USA the Great, which would have led directly to your country speaking some mixture of Russian and Mandarin.

          • Azuran

            Greatest nation in the history of mankind? Please get your head out of your ass.

          • Verboten

            What is the USA #1 in?

            GDP
            Military
            Number of Prestigious Universities
            Amount of Intellectual Property
            Most immigrants
            Founder of democratic republics in the modern era
            The current might and funder of the UN and NATO (yea, protecting all you sissys in Europe while you complain about the USA)

            Do I really need to continue?

          • Who?

            Pretty sure you’re mistaken-there is only one country in the world, Merica, and anything Mericans says goes, because they are the tough and powerful ones, or so Verboten’s world view goes.

            For him to admit otherwise would cause him to suffer one of those mental illnesses he despises as weakness.

          • N

            No, Azuran, if verboten says you are sheltered than you are sheltered. He knows. He is the man after all.

          • Melissa Wickersham

            I am either a Millennial or a Generation X-er.
            I was born in 1981, so what does that make me?

          • Kevin

            Looks like that stumped him.

        • Nick Sanders

          Where were you when the NC GOP was gloating about black voter turnout being down?

          • Verboten

            Well, it is obvious why they would celebrate the monolithic black vote being down. If it had been up, the GOP would have lost NC.

            That said, I hate the fact that everyone always brings it down to race, we need to rebuild our nation not fall for the same idiotic crap our ancestors did.

          • Nick Sanders

            Ever wonder why most minorities so overwhelmingly vote democratic?

            Edit: and they didn’t just celebrate it, they took steps to keep black people from voting.

          • Verboten

            You speak so loudly for having such an empty head.

            What do democratic policies lead us toward? The exact opposite of prosperity. Ever wonder why the black community has fallen apart? Democratic policies. Idiots, all of you.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, when the economy crashes from Trump’s protectionism, tax cuts, and defaulting on the debt, how are you going to pin that on the Democrats, since the GOP has both houses and the White House?

          • Verboten

            And, what are you going to do when the economy booms in spite of global attempts to press it even further down?

          • Nick Sanders

            Wake up?

          • Verboten

            Well, stocks already closed high today on hopes of Trump. Liberals think the economy is goddamned voodoo…go play, let the adults fix the country, you idiots can burn it after we are gone.

    • Verboten

      Your friends are idiots.

      • N

        Does that help you in any way? I mean, insulting people? What did Madtowngirl do to you? And how can you tell her friends are idiots, do you know them?

        • Verboten

          I read her post, I made a judgement. Care to hear my judgement about you?

          • N

            The good thing is, that most people here have learned in their lives to not immediately judge people and before all, not immediately insult them. Things you still have to learn…
            So, no, I don’t care to hear your “judgment” about me. Because it could lead me into wanting to tell you my judgment about you.

          • Verboten

            I come here special to beat on the idiots from the left. You are the dumbest crowd of people since the idiots from the Paris Commune.

          • Megan

            Perhaps you should go here:
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

          • Verboten

            You have supplied so much to the conversation, thanks!

          • MaineJen

            Perhaps you’d prefer Twitter.

            No really. Go there.

          • Verboten

            Don’t worry, this isn’t the only place I visit ๐Ÿ˜€

          • MaineJen

            Oh, I’m sure. I wonder how you find the time to be hateful absolutely everywhere, what with doing your own surgery and all. Must be exhausting.

          • Verboten

            No, hats off to you, stealing other people’s money while sitting on a couch stoned must be very difficult. Maybe you need a nap…and a cookie.

          • N

            Exercice, I say. A steel body. Sleep is for the softies. A real man doesn’t need that.

      • MaineJen

        What is wrong with you? And why are you here?

        • Verboten

          I’m here to ridicule the ludicrous hypocrisy and stupidity from the regressive left. You?

        • Pck

          Why do you assume there is something wrong with ‘verboten’.
          Just because he has a different opinion to you?
          Have you learnt nothing from the election outcome at all?

          • MaineJen

            He/she came here specifically to mock. Dare I say, to troll. Yes, I think there is something wrong with that.

      • LaMont

        Getting *yelled at* makes you an idiot? Where’s that “personal responsibility” you’re such a fan of, Verboten?? Why isn’t the YELLER who is TAKING ACTION responsible for what they do? Oh, because the yeller is on your side. K. (or maybe make that three Ks?)

        • Verboten

          “I have friends who are literally scared for their lives.”

          Yea, her friends are idiots, and judging by your defense, you also are one.

          Only an idiot would think that Trump is going to deport all minorities and stop gay marriage…seeing as he was pro-gay marriage decades before Hillary, has won awards for his minority hiring practices.

          Yea, I hope I run into you in a poker game, if you are this dumb on here, I bet you’d give up your wallet if I asked you the right way.

          • LaMont

            Trump has said that he would have done the same thing as FDR with the internment camps. He has said he would ban Muslims from entering America. He picked a VP who supports conversion therapy for gay people and has jailed women for miscarrying. He has said he would deport Mexicans and called them all rapists (you know, rapists, the people we can magically identify and summarily execute).

            But more importantly, his supporters’ acts of harassment and vandalism *are scary*. Whether you’ll be legally shipped out or not is one thing, but you are definitely at risk from the nearest angry white man with something to prove. Why do you refuse to believe when someone says “I was threatened and attacked.” Makes me *really confident* of your claims to believe rape victims who need abortions.

            And I don’t play poker, but I have won on a trivia-based game show once, so I think I’ll stick to my area of expertise (knowing lots of shit) and leave you to mis-defining words!

          • Verboten

            LMAO More uninformed, idiotic tripe!!

            Just go, you are too far gone. You are brainwashed to the max. Someday your kind will die off because you will eat yourselves. I cannot wait.

          • LaMont

            You do realize that people like me are on the whole *younger* than people like you, right? And… all the facts I said were true – Trump and Pence did say/do those things. People *are* being threatened and assaulted. Do you have any evidence about these claims being fabricated? I’d like to see it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            He’ll take the Pence approach and just deny it happened.

          • LaMont

            Bofa, can you advise me? This is the first time I’ve gotten into such a back-and-forth on this site and it’s fun like your sixth glass of beer is fun – I’m kind of spinning out here. What the hell is happening?!?

          • Mishimoo

            Oh, they realise that people are younger, they accused Attitude Devant of being a millennial earlier. It’s just that they think they’re perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them must be either outdated or immature.

          • Verboten

            No, you are wrong about nearly all of your facts, and the few that you are correct about you are framing like they are the end of the world. Who cares if Pence believes that you can “undo the gay”? There is no way he is going to try to force that on America.

            Also, I have seen more threats coming from the left than from anyone. There are fringe idiots from the KKK that support Trump, but the core of the regressive left is as insane as the KKK.

            Everyone that I know that voted for Trump wouldn’t even dare put a bumper sticker or yardsign out for fear that they would be met with violence. You people are out of your minds.

          • LaMont

            So, when Trump supporters feel threatened, that’s gospel truth. When Mexicans say they’ve been screamed at on the street and feel scared by that, they’re hysterical over-emoters. When gay people are upset to see homophobia in the VP office (and he DID institute anti-gay legislation in Indiana you dingbat), they aren’t allowed to be afraid. Do I have that right?

          • Verboten

            You should be afraid, very afraid. You are about to be put back to work. We are ending charity-by-theft, we are ending the sense of entitlement that the millennials feel, we are ending the bullshit.

            Time to eat your vegetables, kid.

          • LaMont

            Well, I have a job, used to have two in fact! I’d take another but there are only so many hours in the day!

          • Verboten

            What is your expertise in? Dish washing?

          • Who?

            I thought you approved of people working, and assumed you despised elites, and everyone likes clean dishes, so why disparage dishwashing as a job?

          • Verboten

            I do approve of people working, but I do not approve of people attempting to appear like they are something they are not, which that poster was doing. I’ve washed plenty of dishes for work, part of the path to success for everyone not born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

          • LaMont

            Test prep tutoring and data analytics pass muster with you? That a real set of jobs? How am I misrepresenting myself by saying I have a job if I actually have one?

          • Verboten

            Your word against mine. Guess that is a draw

          • Verboten

            Sure, I bet you work so hard and make so much money, which is exactly why you want to have taxes raised and be forced to pay for other people’s healthcare. Genius.

          • Who?

            Not everyone with a high income is greedy and self absorbed.

          • Verboten

            What does it matter if someone is greedy? Did they or did they not earn the money? When did theft become charity? No one is stopping you from paying extra taxes, and anyway, people who earn more do generally donate more to charity.

          • Who?

            Not wanting to have your property stolen isn’t greed. Not wanting to pay your share of tax is greed. Go find a low tax jurisdiction-you might find the roads a little bumpier than you’ld like.

          • Verboten

            I dont mind paying taxes when it is for roads and common defense. It sort of stops there. I don’t believe I should have to pay for other people to be lazy. No one works for free, if you want to collapse society, bring in socialism. History shows us this.

          • N

            Oh, well, I have a paid job. It is paid quite well. As I am not in the US. The same job in the US is paid like crap, or at least was, when Stephen King did it. He could not live with that job alone.

            Well, AND I do an unpaid volunteer job. So people do work for free. And I don’t think being lazy is the main reason for not working….

          • demodocus

            it still pays crap. What other jobs require a Masters and a second job tho pay for both rent and groceries?

          • N

            Around here teachers are really well paid. Enough for me to stay home with my kids and let my husband do the same job for a couple of years. A relatively big house and two cars, and still enough money left… It makes me sad that it is not the same everywhere. :-/

          • Verboten

            No, you do not have a good job if you think your children cannot be born with a silver spoon in their mouths. I love how every degenerate is convinced they have a good job…you can’t! A good job requires sound logic and intelligence, which you have nothing of!!

          • Who?

            You are wrong about what constitutes a silver spoon. Money is one element but it is so much more. Marrying in won’t do it either. But then if you had ever encountered true silver spoons you would know that.

          • Verboten

            Being snobby is not elite. Innovation, creativity, that is elite. Newton, Da Vinci, Galileo those are the elite. Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth is from wealth. I will be the elite and my children will continue my empire. (Admittedly sounds braggadocious, but the regressive left brings out the worst in me)

          • Who?

            Of course you don’t. And why should you pay to help people who are sick, or unlucky, or who happen to not share your values. Thing is, you are as big a sponger as anyone on welfare. Do you expect police, ambulance, the fire brigade when something bad happens? Do you want an entirely uneducated population, or do you think public schools are ok?

            You imagine you’ll. ever be unlucky.

          • Verboten

            Unlucky? Listen, idiot, I’m unlucky and I don’t expect you to pay for that. I don’t call the police, I don’t go to the hospital. I handle my own shit, unlike you whiny babies on the left.

            Theft is not charity, lazy regressive leftist.

          • N

            Yes Who?! Don’t you know? Verboten has his own gun, and he sure knows how to handle it. And surgery, he can do it all alone, should he need it. All he needs is a piece of wood to bite on after drinking some whiskey, whiskey also to disinfect the knife and he can do it. He can pull out all the bullets without a doctor.

          • Verboten

            Actually, I do come from a tough family that does their own surgery and their own stitches. Never really thought about it, but I guess we are a lot tougher than you pansies on the left.

          • rosewater1

            Yawwwn. I’m amazed you have TIME to post here if you are doing all that! Bless your little heart you are a busy bee, aren’t you?

          • Verboten

            Evil never sleeps, so I try to keep up.

          • MaineJen

            WTF.

          • Verboten

            Yea, I guess you idiots on the left don’t understand that a doctor is just a person doing regular things to fix the human body. No wonder you want free healthcare, you think it is magic! Lmao.

          • MaineJen

            HAHAHHAHAHAA I’m sorry. That was funny. Just a person doing regular things, huh? That’s awesome. Good luck with that.

            Got appendicitis? Just do some regular things to yourself. No biggie.

            Cancer? Regular things.

            Need a new kidney? Regular things.

            Yup. Simple.

          • Verboten

            You should take an EMT course, moron.

          • MaineJen

            How exactly would an EMT help with any of those things? An EMT exists in order to stabilize you so that you can be transported to an actual doctor, who can actually help you with those things.

            Call me a moron? Yeah, I have a job in the actual medical field. We help people with health problems. Like, actually help them, not scream at them that they should help themselves with their disease, which they have through no fault of their own. I went to school and took actual exams, and gained actual knowledge, to qualify to be able to do what I do.

            EMTs provide a vital service, but they’re not doctors. Neither am I. I wouldn’t presume to know how to do what they do, and neither should you.

          • Verboten

            Right, and the medical profession is pure magic…what tripe.

            I’ve taken an EMT course for personal knowledge, and as I’ve mentioned, my family handles its own medical issues unless it is a major operation. I’ve learned what is important to stay alive.

            You and the other regressive leftists have no idea how resilient the body is and how well it works to keep you moving. Real doctors understand that and they spend all day thinking up ways to utilize the wonderous systems that the body already contains. The medical profession is not magical, it is very organized and very logical…which is why you are not a doctor.

            If you can do it yourself, why pay someone hundreds of dollars an hour? Oh right, because the left is helpless and needs the government to be daddy.

          • MaineJen

            “Unless it is a major operation” So you agree with me. Cool.

          • Verboten

            I don’t know what you mistook my views for, but I am not against modern medicine. I am against having a welfare state, and I’m against the idea that modern medicine has all of the answers.

          • MaineJen

            Dude. You’re embarrassing yourself. Stop.

          • Verboten

            I’m not embarrassing myself. I’m not an idiot like you are. It is like being told I am poor by a beggar while I am holding a bag of gold. It’s actually perplexing.

            Maybe you’ve spent too much time out in the sun? Drugs? Mental illness?

          • N

            you’re embarrassing yourself – no I’m not – yes you are – no I’m not… You should really think about going to that argument clinic. I think you really need it.
            It is funny to read your insults. It is like kindergarden.

          • Verboten

            You are an idiot. That is not an insult, it is a fact that happens to be insulting. What is childish are your views on the world and the fact that you whine so much about someone calling you an idiot (which you are) while people throughout the world are suffering because of your boneheadedness. Shut up and go do something useful for a change.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Anti-intellectualism at it’s finest, isn’t it?

            Call me a crazy liberal, but I actually recognize the value of expertise.

            Odd how this moron thinks that someone needs to get an education to get a good job, but then when someone actually HAS a real education, then they are just people doing regular things.

          • N

            Verboten don’t need doctors for those things. He don’t get them. He probably eats the right things and exercices enough to steel his body. It is just us lefties who get those regular lefty-thingys.

          • Who?

            No those things only happen to weak people, not strong people like Verboten.

            Appendicitis is for wimps and weaklings.

          • Who?

            My bad!!!

            I love reading Verboten-he thinks he’s making thoughtful points by calling people who disagree with him silly names.

            Doing such a great job of making the US’s new masters look good!

          • Heidi

            Well, verboten, why even worry yourself about these silly politics and government? You ain’t using it so just keep your nose out of it, ya know. I don’t think anyone’s going to come looking for you out in your log cabin in the woods.

          • Verboten

            Oh yea *drinks koolaide* I forgot…I should just let you run the country into the ground *sips more koolaide* I’ll be just fine in my log cabin.

            Tasty drink you’ve got, but I don’t really like it. I’m here to stay.

          • Heidi

            Come on, Verboten, it was Flavor Aid. When you got almost a thousand people, you gotta cut corners somewhere.

          • MaineJen

            “When did theft become charity?” Ask Trump.

          • Verboten

            No, I’m asking the right people, the regressive left that wants to help people with other people’s money while they sit on a couch getting high.

          • N

            I was never high, not even drunk!

          • Verboten

            You should try it, you don’t have much else going for you.

          • Nick Sanders

            If you’re gonna defend Trump, it would do you better not to speak of silver spoons.

          • Verboten

            Nothing wrong with being born with a silver spoon in the mouth. My children will be.

          • Who?

            You wish. Like you, your children will be insecure nobodies with chips on their shoulders about the fantasy of others who want to steal their precious stuff.

            And if you are naive enough to think a person born without a silver spoon in their mouth can hope to ever amass enough wealth to give their children a true ‘silver spoon’ upbringing-as opposed to some white trash imagining of what that might be-I have a nice bridge I’d like to sell you.

          • Verboten

            Just because you will never be successful in the greatest country in history during the most exciting time in human civilization, does not mean everyone is in your same boat.

            Also, stop trying to steal people’s hard earned money and pretend that it is charity. Have some courage and be a real criminal at the very least, coward.

          • Who?

            Oh little man.

            I’m not American, and don’t live there.

            I have a successful professional career, as does my husband. We both attended elite universities, for free. We happily pay our taxes.

            Our now adult children were privately educated and attended elite universities, where they took out loans to pay their fees, and are now progressing in professional careers, living independently, paying off their loans (far less than they would be in the US) and saving to buy homes of their own.

            We own two homes, and have a nice pile of money to retire on in the next couple of years. We holiday overseas twice a year.

            All that said, we’ve never attempted to do surgery on ourselves, nor have we ever shot anyone or been shot. If that makes us soft, well I’ll have to live with that.

            Have a nice, if sad, narrow, bitter and empty, life.

            This is your cue to call me an idiot, I think??

          • Verboten

            Are you the same idiot telling me my children won’t be born with silver spoons in their mouths? There is a reason why you and your countrymen will never be considered the superpower in the world. You depend on the USA to keep the Huns out of your backyard. You are a spoiled, soft brat that has only amounted to something because of the enterprise of much more capable people.

          • momofone

            Much more capable people…like you?

          • Verboten

            Well, we certainly aren’t talking about you.

          • momofone

            That’s interesting, since you don’t know anything about me. You’ve made some sweeping, and grossly inaccurate, assumptions, but those are a reflection of you, not of me.

          • Verboten

            No, I can tell by your lack of logic that you have no chance of having been or ever being great.

          • momofone

            On what specific thing(s) are you basing that?

          • Verboten

            Basically, your entire life stance flies in the face of all we have learned as a species. That is what I am basing my judgment of you on. From guns to abortion, from economics to politics, from history to science, you simply do not know what is going on. This is sadly so common amongst what is now labelled the “regressive left”.

          • momofone

            I’m sorry; I must have forgotten we discussed those topics, particularly my “life stance.” You paint with an awfully broad brush (and you consistently miss your mark).

          • Verboten

            Point out where I am wrong, and I’ll own it.

          • momofone

            Point out where you’re right, and I will. That of course means backing up what you presume to know about my “life stance” and apparently opinions on many issues that I don’t recall having discussed with you or anyone else, so I’m fascinated to see what you come up with.

          • maidmarian555

            What planet do you live on? Germany is not a threat to anybody in Europe. WW2 ended a very long time ago. What are they teaching you people over there??!

          • Verboten

            The Huns were a barbarian nation that most likely originated nearby China, and though sometimes used in reference to the Germans, in this context it was clearly denoting barbarians. Do keep up.

          • maidmarian555

            Oh gosh. I’m so sorry for assuming you were making a reference to modern history as opposed to Attila the Hun. We’re not overly concerned about needing USA help to keep him out our backyard either…..

          • Verboten

            I harbor a slightly morbid view that we should remove American troops from the world over and unplug the phone. In 30 years, the entire world would be de facto American because everything else will have burned to the ground.

          • maidmarian555

            Ha! You’re assuming America won’t also be 20ft underwater if Trump goes through with his promises to tear up the Paris agreement. No amount of guns and phone unplugging will help you there I’m afraid….

          • Verboten

            LMAO The USA is not the major polluter in the world, dummy! LMAO

          • maidmarian555

            Whether it is or not right now is still utterly irrelevant to your 30 year phone unplugging plan if you start ramping up emissions. Seriously, what *are* they teaching you over there? Apparently not history, geography or science?!

          • Verboten

            Actually, it is you that does not understand history, geography or science…and certainly not politics. You have no idea what is going on in the world. It would take years to get you caught up on what is actually going on.

            Again, the USA is not the major polluter in the world. You have no sense of why these global carbon taxes are being pushed. Yes, we need to diminish pollution but not empower the completely corrupt and ineffective UN. China and India is who you should actually be concerned about, but you aren’t. Good for you.

            The history of this world is one of a fight for power. People like you have lived and died without seeing a battle, without understanding the price that is paid for you to live your spoiled life. This is why you want to take everyone’s guns away, because you have no sense of reality. This is why you complain about the USA, because you have no idea why governments even exist in the first place. History is not a fairy tale, child.

            As for science, if I am not mistaken, the USA is #1 when it comes to innovation. As the global environment worsens and the regressive left begins to wet itself, it will be innovators and entrepreneurs that save the day, as it always has in the past. Every shortage has been solved by innovation, every ailment, every problem to date.

            So, regressive leftists, keep wetting yourselves, just stay out of the way of people that mean to actually do something.

          • maidmarian555

            You’re making an awful lot of assumptions about me based on a handful of flip comments. You don’t know anything about me, my personal history or my age. I never said that climate change is not a global issue or that America is the only problem. I did say that America can turn her back on the rest of the globe all she wants, the consequences of unfettered emissions will be felt just as badly there as anywhere else. Elon Musk is only going to be able to take a small number of you (probably those pesky elites you Trump voters all so keen on sticking it to) to his Martian colony and unless your scientists can work out how to fit you all with gills so you can breathe underwater when the glaciers melt you’ll be as screwed as the rest of us.

          • Verboten

            We are not going to drown. If anything, we will loan you boats so you don’t drown.

          • Who?

            Your children won’t be. You might scrape some money together, but the silver spoon is way more than money, which you would know if you lived and worked with and for them as I do.

            And why would my country want to be a superpower? We have the US for that when needed. The rest of the time, we mind our own business.

          • Verboten

            You only get to mind your own business because of the USA.

            And, you have no idea who I am, what I’ve already accomplished and what is coming next. Don’t really care what you think about how my children are going to be because you are hilariously wrong.

          • Who?

            Sure, sure.

            And thanks for being there when we whistle.

          • Verboten

            We aren’t there because you whistle, we are there because we get to run the world. Thanks for being our serfs ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • Who?

            Pleasure.

          • momofone

            “And, you have no idea who I am, what I’ve already accomplished and what is coming next.”

            Likewise.

          • Verboten

            No, you really have no idea, and I do have a pretty good idea about you.

          • momofone

            I have no idea, and don’t care. You are not in a position to grant permission or approval or anything but your egregious judgment.

          • Verboten

            I’m not granting any type of permission. Your own myopic views limit you and your future.

          • momofone

            I love irony. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Verboten

            Yea, you probably think my views are myopic…cute…the actual word is holistic.

          • momofone

            “Yea, you probably think my views are myopic…”

            Look at you! Got it on the first try.

          • Verboten

            Yea, you are pretty sad. You take mainstream opinion hook, line, and sinker, and you think I am the close-minded one. Very sad. Meanwhile, in the real world, I am living with my eyes wide open.

          • momofone

            Again, I’m waiting to see on what you base this erudite opinion.

          • Verboten

            Waiting for you to publically denounce what I’ve accused you of. Until then, I am correct by default ๐Ÿ˜€

          • momofone

            Oh honey. That’s not how it works. You’re like the people who show up insisting on arbitrary numbers for c-sections, for example, and who then say, “Uh HUH. Prove me wrong!” You claim it, you back it up.

          • Verboten

            You are a laugh and a half. We are talking about you here not some statistic, genius.

          • momofone

            You can either back it up or you can’t.

          • Verboten

            You can either deny it or you can’t.

          • momofone

            Since you clearly are having trouble, let me help: What. You. Need. To. Do. Is. To. Show. What. I. Think. About. The. Topics. You. Listed. Guns, etc.

            For further help, here’s your quote: “From guns to abortion, from economics to politics, from history to science, you simply do not know what is going on.”

          • Verboten

            Right, you are the one that thinks guns are for hunting, right? Why? You grew up that way. What a wide open view of the world you have *rolls eyes*

          • momofone

            Please cite anything I’ve said about guns.

          • Verboten

            I really don’t know, and I really don’t care. If I’m wrong, point it out. I don’t work for you, you don’t pay me, I don’t have to do anything you say.

          • momofone

            Oh, wait, what happened to the badass who was sure s/he knew my “life stance”? Now, pressed to prove it, you can’t. Might want to quit talking out of your ass.

          • Verboten

            Why don’t you come out and tell us your life stance then, genius?

          • momofone

            Why would I need to? You’ve professed to already know it, along with my stance on guns, abortion, history, science, politics, and who knows what else. If I remember correctly (and I do) you even mentioned my upbringing.

          • Verboten

            Then tell me where I was wrong, genius. Until then, your word against mine. Guess that makes it a tie.

          • momofone

            Again, not the way it works. You claim to “know”; you show me how. Genius.

          • Verboten

            ::yawn:: I don’t care to drag up our old conversations, you were defending idiots, that makes you an idiot by association. Good day.

          • momofone

            LOL. I’d say that’s “uncle.” Good day indeed.

          • Verboten

            Nope, not even close. You are the one too cowardly to openly express your views for all to see.

          • momofone

            According to you, I already have. You just can’t seem to show where. It’s been a pleasure.

          • Verboten

            Nope, not according to me. According to me, I read you like a book and you still haven’t debunked that. Guess it stands. Good night.

          • Who?

            Was this your flounce? Can you stick it?

          • Verboten

            Thanks for revealing that this is your sock account, troll.

          • Who?

            So that’s a no, then.

            Sweet you think momo and I are the same person, I’m flattered.

          • Verboten

            Eh, worth a shot in the dark, don’t you think ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • Who?

            I thought you were going?

            Mind the door on your way out….

          • Verboten

            I’m not going anywhere. Telling one person good night is telling them I’m done with their nonsense.

            I love how much “power” you regressives think you have. All I can do is smile that Trump is now going to be the most powerful person on the planet. Cower, regressive, cower! ๐Ÿ˜€

          • Who?

            Shan’t.

            He’s a hiccup. The backlash after him will be a sight to see. If it wasn’t for all the misery his moment in office will cause the people who voted for him, and a bunch of other people, it would be fun to watch.

          • Verboten

            Don’t really care about your off-the-wall opinion.

            All Trump needs to do is secure the border, drop taxes, get rid of Obamacare and the TPP, maybe renegotiate a few trades deals, chase down corruption, and then pretty much get out of the way of the free market, and we will be good. If he does that, we will give him a full 8…heck, maybe 12 just to piss off the regressives even more.

          • Who?

            Sure-undo a couple of hundred years of business as usual. Easy. If you think US standards of living are way down now, wait until the cheap chinese goods you’ve mistaken for silver spoons, dry up, and no one will buy anything from you anymore.

            And 12 years is a revolution. You might just find a bunch of people start approving of having guns if a fascist revolution is your goal.

          • Verboten

            Oh, I cannot wait for the day that the regressives decide to take up arms against the republic. It will be like the zombie apocalypse…well, zombies are a bit smarter than regressives, so it won’t be much of a challenge.

            We already have the largest GDP in the face of heavy regulations and taxes. You have no idea what American enterprise can do.

          • Who?

            it won’t be against the republic, it will be against a coup initiated by Trump or his supporters. Government is so much more than one person. I’m sorry you relish violence against fellow citizens.

            If America is fool enough to breach treaties, no one will buy from them, or sell to them. For that reason, American companies won’t allow the government to do that, or they will take themselves offshore. Other countries won’t do business as usual with a non-player. Have a nice time swapping washers for the crap you can make out of belly button fluff and whatever your decimated manufacturing industry can put together out of spare parts.

            Your kids’ silver spoon lifestyle (or your sad false little simulacrum of it) will disappear in a puff of smoke.

            Wake up.

          • Verboten

            Fellow citizens? You mean the people that are constantly despising the republic? The people chanting for death to the police? Those are not Americans, they are lucky they have been relatively peaceful thus far.

            As for the 12 years, it was a joke, but if we did want it, we can overturn an amendment and make a new one. That’s how America works.

            “If America is fool enough to breach treaties, no one will buy from them, or sell to them.”
            Good, you will finally stop using Disqus, Facebook, Twitter, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Apple products and make something of yourself!

            You could drop me anywhere in the world without a cent in my pocket, not even a shirt on my back, and I would succeed.

          • Who?

            Sure.

            Whatever you say.

            So it’s a condition of US citizenship to agree with government now? You’ve been a non-citizen traitor for how long then, and will be until Inauguration Day. If that was a crime yet, you’d be in trouble.

            If you think any of the companies you mention won’t move whatever they need to (that they haven’t already) out of the US, you really should reconsider that bridge I was trying to sell you yesterday. Companies have no patriotism-they have shareholders.

            It’s sweet that you think cranky white guys can do well anywhere.

          • Verboten

            You are just another spoiled westerner. You are the exact problem we don’t need. You can have all our regressives, we will trade them for your sane people.

            “Companies have no patriotism-they have shareholders.”
            Exactly. If Trump’s economic advisor is any indication of what is coming, those corporates taxes are coming way down…just in time too, for me anyways ๐Ÿ˜€

            “It’s sweet that you think cranky white guys can do well anywhere.”
            Always the regressives bringing out race. NEWSFLASH: Your attitude and your actions are what define a person not the color of their skin.

            Anyway, it is quite telling that you would guffaw at that statement. Not a single one of my American friends would guffaw at that, they would counter with “I could do succeed without legs, jerkoff.”. And, here in America, we actually are diverse, the majority of my friends are “minorities” and none of us share your cowardly outlook on life.

          • Who?

            The shareholders need people to buy stuff. If Americans have no money, and the government won’t let them export, they will take their businesses overseas. There are low tax havens everywhere.

            I love how you classify your friends as ‘minorities’. How special they must feel. The countries you claim you could succeed in, you would be the minority: have you ever been the only white face in a foreign crowd, without your certainties and majority status to fall back on? Thought not.

            Joking about a revolution is grotesque.

          • Verboten

            How exactly do you think money works? We don’t need your money. The Chinese, Indians, Mexicans, South Americans, Africans, Middle Easterners, Russians etc will all buy our products. America is amazing at what she does. At the very worst, we will turn the damn place into a Hollywood set. Now, that’s at the very worst, mind you ๐Ÿ˜‰

            I put “minorities” in quotes because it is a regressive term. Skin color doesn’t matter in America as much as the media tries to pretend it does. Yes, there are some very racist parts of the country, but those parts of the country don’t like me much either, seeing as I am Jewish.

            And, I’m not joking, if the regressives are fool enough to take up arms against the republic, as a growing minority are threatening to do, I would gladly end their spoiled lives, as would many of my fellow Americans. This is the greatest country in the world, it is worth fighting for, it is worth dying for.

          • Who?

            Not if you don’t buy their’s they won’t.

            And in that case, the companies will move offshore, maybe to places all too ready to fill the low tax vacuum. There are no ‘American’ companies, except as an advertising line. There are multinationals whose responsibility is to their shareholders.

            Try having a coloured skin and see how you find racism. Try spending time in a country where people who look like you don’t run things. Your perspective might become more nuanced.

            Are you prepared to give your life, though, is the real question? Do you love America enough to die for her?

          • Verboten

            I’m prepared to give the lives of every stupid son of a bitch that tries to take down this great republic. ๐Ÿ˜€

            You are a spoiled westerner. Pathetic. So dumb you could barely survive if they cut off your healthcare!! HA!

          • Who?

            So you’re not prepared to die for that great country? Good to know. All talk.

            And I pay for my own healthcare, thanks for your concern though.

          • Verboten

            No, the American worker pays for your healthcare. The day you start having to pay for your own defense is the day your entitlements disappear. There is a reckoning coming. Better enjoy things while you can. Merry Christmas, indeed.

            Also, my stance is the stance of Patton, a great general that personifies true American spirit and grit. We will let the other sons of bitches die for their country or cause.

          • Who?

            I’m not american and don’t live there. So, no, the american worker doesn’t pay for my healthcare.

            Patton’s view is horrifying for a person whose job it is to send people into battle. But what’s a few men, right?

            Would you be prepared to give your life for your country? If not, all your bluster is a joke.

          • Verboten

            “I’m not american and don’t live there. So, no, the american worker doesn’t pay for my healthcare.”

            We pay for your defense, genius. We give you cush trade deals. You exist at our pleasure. You are very fortunate to have the USA as your direct neighbor instead of say Russia.

            “Patton’s view is horrifying for a person whose job it is to send people into battle. But what’s a few men, right?”

            Americans love to fight. The majority of our existence has been war. That is the way of the world. We happen to be pretty good at it. That’s the real reason the US Dollar has value.

            As for giving my life for my country, as an American, it is my duty to die for American principles. I would not give my life for a corporate war, I would not give my life for an imperialistic war. I would give my life for the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

          • Who?

            Well I’ll try to remember to bow east sometime. You don’t give us trade deals, you give us deals that work for both sides, most of the time.

            America is not some global benefactor, it is a key player, which many other key players fear will now become erratic and unreliable. Bad for America, and yes, bad for everyone else.

            I know loads of Americans, most love to argue, none love to fight. Most people who have ever had to fight have some respect for the risks and dangers. Your lack of respect for them indicates you are all talk.

            Your full throated patriotism is an inspiration.

          • Verboten

            You know regressives not Americans.

            The USA is the greatest nation that has ever existed. This is proven by our economic might, our military might, the might of our entrepreneurship, the might of our innovation.

            You are spoiled, no doubt about that, but you are only spoiled because of the might of America. Yes, so powerful we can rightfully take ownership of the entire hemisphere in which we exist.

            Your day of reckoning is coming. This is not going to stop in America, all of the world is waking up to the lunacy of regressive policies.

          • Who?

            Whatever you say. I’ll keep the light on so I don’t miss it.

          • Verboten

            Brexit was just the beginning and the election of Trump proves that. Cower, regressive, cower.

          • Who?

            And isn’t that going well.

            All that new money for hospitals-oh, not there, never was going to be there.

            All those foreigners not allowed in-oh, yes they are.

            All those beneficial trading relationships saved-no, they won’t be.

            All those big businesses keen to stay in the UK because it’s awesome. They’re already packing up.

            The people were lied to. Just like Trump has lied. The Brexit campaigners can’t deliver what they promised-Farage resigned immediately after the vote, that’s how good he felt about actually owning what happened. And the people who voted in favour are already getting restless.

            What a comforting analogy for you.

          • Verboten

            Farage is coming back because the bureaucrats are screwing it up, but the people have spoken.

            Regressives are so short-sighted:
            http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/09/that-post-brexit-sterling-tumble-is-as-the-economists-insisted-boosting-the-british-economy/#588aeee05331

          • Who?

            He resigned. At the outset. I’d want him back too-front and centre to share the blame and responsibility for the financial ruin an isolated England will face.

            Mind you he has his EU pension, so he’s okay. Or perhaps he won’t ever cash it in?

          • Verboten

            “the financial ruin an isolated England will face.”

            You are such an idiot.

            Anyway, Farage had been in the fight for 20 years. After all the death threats and mockery he received from the idiots, like you, he has earned a well deserved break…which he is using to spread the message WORLDWIDE.

            Cower.

          • Who?

            He quit. At the moment of his greatest victory. What kind of scared weakling turns away from the real challenge? The Nigel Farage kind.

            There’s a lovely moment at the end of ‘Mean Girls’ where Lindsay Lohan’s character realises that calling people names doesn’t make them wrong, it just obscures your thinking about them.

            England has no natural resources to speak of, and enjoyed a couple of centuries of success sucking its colonies dry, and then did very well in the new Europe. England will be gutted by this. Don’t tell me I’m stupid, tell me why I’m wrong.

          • Verboten

            Aren’t you underneath the British Crown, weakling?

            “Technically speaking, Queen Elizabeth is the Sovereign of the parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy of Canada.”

            Can’t defend yourself and don’t even have a country of your own. Cute.

          • Who?

            Not Canadian. You do get that there is a whole globe out there that has nothing whatever to do with the North American continent?

            We won’t need to defend ourselves-you’ll do it for us, at your expense, for your convenience. If Donald tries to get between the US military and what it wants to do, he’ll get a very bad strawberry indeed at his next meal.

            You’ll excuse me if I’m not out waving a little flag to welcome your boys when they arrive? I’ll probably have some proper work to do.

          • Verboten

            “Donald tries to get between the US military and what it wants to do”
            Trump will be the Commander in Chief. They will do as they are commanded to do.

            Trump has already threatened to disband NATO if the allies don’t cough up their fair share. You are no longer getting a free ride, weakling.

            Time to eat your vegetables, kid.

          • Who?

            Sure. Sure. The most powerful military force in the history of the world is going to bow down to a buffoon who can’t pay to keep them running and wants to do something that will ultimately weaken their power. You really need to think about that bridge I want to sell you, when you see a photo you’ll be in love.

            And I love my veges, and don’t see them as punishment.

          • Verboten

            Trump has the support of the veterans and the best generals, dolt.

            You aren’t going to like these vegetables, these don’t taste like chocolate, weakling.

          • Who?

            Ho hum

            All those homogeneous groups-Americans, generals, vegetables, regressives, minorities, foreigners…

            Not too many individuals in your world, are there?

          • Verboten

            Is this what you are resorting to after having your ass handed to you?

          • Who?

            You’re boring me now. I’m just jumping back to a thought I had earlier-you claim to love America, but only the kind of americans who agree with you. You spoke about all the minorities in America being much less unhappy than foreigners think they are. On what basis?

            All the generals support Donald? I find that surprising. I’ve met a few generals in my time, and they know an idiot when they see one, and they are smart enough to be scared of an idiot with power. They’ll be quietly working out how to deal with Donald giving an illegal order-we know he will, and there is no reason some underling should wear responsibility for that. Lucky for them, there are many ways to skin a cat.

            And you think that all vegetables taste bad? And that everyone who isn’t just like you thinks all vegetables taste bad? It was a mildly engaging analogy the first time you used it, now it’s just dull. Dull, dull.

          • Verboten

            “but only the kind of americans who agree with you.”
            Get this straight, if you make a move against the republic, you will pay in blood.

            I never said all of the generals and I stated clearly that they will not follow Trump if they are commanded to violate American principles.

            You are the boring one, I am full of knowledge, you aren’t giving me any fight anymore.

          • Who?

            Bye then!!!!

            But before you go-it is you, isn’t it Donald?

            ‘I am full of knowledge’. Classic.

          • Verboten

            Laugh away, dolt. I already have 4 degrees (bachelor psychology, masters in business marketing, paralegal degree, bachelor computer engineer). I own my own business and do consulting for 2 others…while working on an engineering PhD at night. Full of knowledge is an understatement.

          • Who?

            Pretty defensive. Why do you need to impress some random stranger on the internet?

          • Verboten

            I’m not trying to impress you, I’m telling you the truth.

          • Who?

            So you say. I still think you’re narrow minded and shallow without much grasp on rhetoric. Your choices of studies reflect those of someone with a fairly narrow focus and tendency to obsessiveness, traits which you have displayed again today.

            All that, you’re good at learning lists and you don’t sleep much. Doesn’t make you smart.

          • Verboten

            You are as pathetic as they come. If even 10% of what I said is true, I would be considered incredible, but the fact is that it is all 90% true, because I actually sell myself short. I also have a surveying degree and an EMT certificate. All of that, and I’m just getting started.

            American spirit trumps all of your idiotic nonsense. I’d say, let’s compete on the free market, but comeon, let’s be real, you wouldn’t make it one day if you were thrown on the streets with nothing much less be able to win a business competition.

          • Who?

            Collect your degrees and certificates. They don’t make you smart. They certainly don’t make you employable. Particularly if they are from low grade institutions in this tight job market.

            Be a business person, make a living at that. Doesn’t make you smart. Failing at business (like your hero Donald) doesn’t make you a bad person, either. Donald has other stuff for that. For some people who display the level of rigidity and lack of empathy that you do, self employment is a good choice. Saves you getting on with employers and coworkers. Romanticising business is a con, often promulgated by businesses that want to sell you stuff for your business, from mobile phones to coaching. Like Donald.

            What on earth is the American spirit? Human spirit fights on through horror-Americans romanticise that and make it their own, but it isn’t unique.

            You are craving to identify as part of something strong, and you can’t respect criticism of the symbol you have chosen. That’s part of the rigidity of your personality.

            Perhaps some wisdom will come to you, if you are open to it.

          • Verboten

            Only an idiot disparages educational and business acumen. However, I will admit, my degrees are not definers of intelligence. I have degrees because I am intelligent, I am not intelligent because I have degrees.

            Enough about me, let’s talk about you.

            You are the one that lacks empathy. Let me guess, pro-abortion and anti-death penalty? The quintessential regressive. Kill the innocent and protect the guilty. You’ve really thought out your position, hypocrite.

          • Who?

            I’m happy to keep engaging with you, but if you continue to call me
            names and be pejorative, I will stop. Your tone is disrespectful, and I
            will not post in response to you again if you persist. I’ve ignored it so far, but it’s time to draw a line. If you can’t respect that, then you and I have nothing further to discuss.

            Turning to your substantive points, I disparage neither. I just don’t hold either up as a measure of a human being.

            You apparently have some aptitude for learning lists. You are clearly not good at choosing, because you have chosen many things without finding one you are passionate about. Or perhaps you just don’t know yourself very well.

            I am pro choice. Why? Because I don’t see an alternative. A woman shouldn’t be forced to bear a child if she doesn’t want to, because of the risks to her health, life and future that entails. Ideally, good sex education, access to high quality contraceptive choices, and respectful relationships, limit unplanned pregnancies: I take it you wholeheartedly support all of that. And of course, situations where the baby has a condition incompatible with life, or where the mother’s life is in danger, should allow an abortion if the mother wants it. Perhaps you don’t mind abortion if the woman can pay for it?

            I’m really interested in the concept of innocence, which I take it underpins your objection to abortion-why do you value it so highly, when it is not earnt, but is a state of being? In eastern thought, innocence is earnt, not bestowed. Being earnt, it can’t be taken away. Remember that in certain cultures and religions even today, a raped woman is of lower value than her unraped sister, due to her loss of innocence, that she did nothing to cause. Respecting a bundle of cells over all else is perverse.

            I am against the death penalty because the legal system makes mistakes, and you can’t bring someone back to life when a mistake is discovered. I can see a place for it in certain very limited circumstances, but am not comfortable with opening that door in our current state of being. Also offences are an issue: there was a move afoot at one stage to introduce the death penalty for rape. Given the notorious difficulty of getting a rape conviction, it was always more about perception than reality. The issue of course is that where there is a death penalty for murder, and one for rape, that encourages the rapist to kill his victim, even if he otherwise would not. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

          • Verboten

            “You apparently have some aptitude for learning lists.”
            I cannot barely memorize, I have brain damage, everything I can do I do from the sheer power of creativity and logic.

            “You are clearly not good at choosing”
            The thing I failed to mention is who the majority of those degrees were for. They weren’t for me, I sell my logic on the market at a high price, but only to regressives (like you) to keep them down for life. I get paid, I get smarter, they hang themselves in the future because they don’t know anything and have a “degree”. I actually have more degrees if you put together all of the extra work I’ve done, but those were the complete degrees that I handed out to people.

            You are pro-choice because you cannot think for yourself and you are anti-death row because you don’t understand life. Anyone that calls an unborn child a “bundle of cells” is a blatant idiot and undeserving of my respect.

            Anyway, when you want to start boasting about having degrees, come to me, I’ll give you one, regressive lefty ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • Verboten

            “Don’t tell me I’m stupid, tell me why I’m wrong.”

            I do recall a certain olive branch being shoved. You’ll get no quarter from me.

          • Who?

            Oh now I get it. You were trying to give me a chance to graciously back down in the face of your might!!!

            And your might is expressed by the typing of drivel and calling me silly, childish pathetic names that betray your rage, impotence and frustration.

            And now you’re giving me no quarter-well, then. Can I suggest some appropriate and new pejoratives for you to use, I’m pretty bored with the ones you’ve been trotting out for days:

            Poo face

            Bum head

            Ratbag

          • Verboten

            You are an idiot. Fair and square. I am not at fault for telling you the truth, you are at fault for denying it.

          • Who?

            Sure, whatever you say.

            Thing is, you can’t stop me having an opinion. If you have the strength, you can ignore me and people like me. If you really thought you were right, and strong, and in control, you would ignore me. But somewhere in your head you know you’re not, so you can’t.

            So I win the game I’m playing. Every time you answer me, I win a little more. And the only way to stop me winning is for you to stop playing. I’ll stop when I’m bored. But could start again, anytime.

          • Verboten

            No, I want you to have an opinion. Discourse is how great ideas evolve. Even in your idiocy you say some things that are true and that make me think. I simply wished you would actually use your head instead of your arse to think.

            You act so helpless, but I know you aren’t. Sort of the paradox of this age, an entire generation with so much power at their fingertips, and instead of taking advantage of the moment, they are busy virtue signaling each other while engaging in hypocritical acts. Truly, the paradox of our time.

          • Who?

            How old do you think I am?

            It’s revealing you find some of my ideas ‘true’: not interesting, thought provoking, or challenging. You claim to want discourse, and you imagine telling me I’m a dolt, an idiot or that some ideas come out of my arse, is the way to do it.

            You are far too binary to be interesting. Glad to be making you think, but from what you’ve demonstrated so far I doubt you have the equipment to go far with that.

          • Verboten

            “How old do you think I am?”
            Somewhere between 12 and 60. (I know, I’m the best, don’t remind me.)

            I didn’t say much of what you said makes me think lol. You are still an idiot that doesn’t understand how the world came to be. I hope that, even if you don’t admit it, that you learned something today. I am harsh because I deal with trolls all day, but my final goal is freedom for all of mankind.

          • Who?

            I’ve learnt, again, that people who believe they know everything have little modesty.

            Your final goal is for everyone to agree with you, or to argue just long enough to make you feel good, then agree with you.

            That is not freedom.

          • Verboten

            “I’ve learnt, again, that people who believe they know everything have little modesty.”
            Oh, I don’t know anything, just infinitely more than you do.

            “Your final goal is for everyone to agree with you”
            No, idiot, I expect people to adhere to reality.

          • Verboten

            Also, Farage was a business man, if he takes the pension, fine, he earned it, but I don’t think he needs it, weakling.

          • momofone

            Likewise. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • N

            Oh no! We are all one again! Demodocus, where are you?

          • Who?

            Sure, sure-far too busy to look up what you’re quoting, are you, after two days here?

          • Who?

            What else do you want them for? To protect your sad little pile of pretend silver spoons from the marauders at the door? I assume you think it is a waste of taxpayer money to pay for prisons, preferring to shoot any criminals you see, while of course not identifying as a criminal yourself. Murderers are way less bad than silver spoon thieves, right?

            And if one of those marauders raped your daughter, you’d totes make her have the baby right, because it is innocent, even if you had killed its dad for being a rapist and failed silver spoon napper?

            How is anyone safe in a country where everyone can have a gun, or more than one? Here, you see someone with a gun, you know for a fact they are a cop or a criminal.

            Now you get to call me an idiot again.

          • Verboten

            ::yawn:: More idiotic tripe from a Disquster, no surprises.

            2nd Amendment exists to defend against the government and foreign invasion.

            Murderers and rapists should not be shot, they should be hung in the town square (Youtube would be fine).

            Rape is a special case concerning abortion as the mother is likely to become suicidal and also had the baby forced upon her.

            The definition of a free man on planet Earth is a man holding a gun. They don’t let slaves have guns for a reason.

            Idiot.

          • N

            Ad don’t forget the kindereggs. they are too dangerous for the Verbotens of the world. They must be shot immediately!

          • Azuran

            I like how you are accusing us of being ‘sheltered’ and having never worked for anything in our lives, while at the same time talking about how your children ARE going to be born with a silver spoon and you are going to make them spoiled little ‘sheltered’ brat who have never worked for anything they get.

          • Verboten

            No, they won’t be spoiled. They will be trained how exactly not to end up like you.

          • Azuran

            An actual Doctor with a stable job (and in her way to actually become an associate in the largest clinic of the county) owner of a house and already building a nice little retiring fund?
            Geez, yea you better hope they end up being the exact opposite of me.

          • N

            But you don’t have a gunnnnnn! You are nothing! Nothing but a slave!

          • Azuran

            Yea, I guess you are right. You are not free if you are not afraid of going outside your house (Bonus point if you don’t feel safe inside either) and you don’t have a gun pulled on you at least 3 times.

            Maximum freedom is achieved when your toddler accidentally shoots himself in the face.

          • N

            If you are a real cowboy, you are afraid of nothing. You can do your own surgery and stitches and all, if a bullet happens to penetrate your body. And if your toddler shoots himself, he just was not ment to live, or not strong enough! He should have been educated to have a body of steel. Ahhh you softy lefty!

            (I hope you know that I’m not serious.)

          • Azuran

            Wait………so I guess I AM a real cowboy XD
            I’m definitely not afraid. In fact, I’m SO much more courageous since I actually don’t have guns in my house. Not having a guns takes balls of steel. Actually, I think Verboten is the pussy, real ‘Men’ don’t need gun to feel safe.
            And I totally can do my own surgery and stitches. And clearly I can do it better than him. So two points for me.

          • N

            Upvoted ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Verboten

            Yea, you are not a doctor. I am not personally one, so I can’t ask any questions that would disprove your bogus claim, but I have friends that are doctors, I’ll text them and see what trip up questions they have for the liars on Disqus.

          • Azuran

            Dude, My profession is written on my profile. I am 100% a real Doctor. But you really are stupid if you think that there are ‘trip questions’ you can ask people to figure whether or not they are actual doctors.
            Or that if you actually DO have doctor friends, that they would have nothing better to do with their time then indulge your internet stupidity.

          • Verboten

            “Dude, My profession is written on my profile. I am 100% a real Doctor.”

            Wow, an idiot is born every minutes, and I happen to meet all of them. Trip up questions are on the way, expect them to arrive within 24 hours.

          • momofone

            Have you ever noticed that you seem to be the common denominator there?

          • Verboten

            “But you really are stupid if you think that there are ‘trip questions’ you can ask people to figure whether or not they are actual doctors. ”

            No, you are clearly not a doctor then. LMAO so sad, the regressive left, a bunch of spoiled whiny kids who have to lie about who they are (because they probably think everyone else lies about themselves too…LOL WE DONT).

          • Azuran

            You really are just sad. You are projecting your own insecurities on others.

          • Verboten

            Oh, lol, you are a vet. That isn’t a doctor. Nice try. I can believe you are a vet…’s assistant.

          • Azuran

            A veterinarian IS a doctor.

          • Mishimoo

            Not to mention: washing dishes properly seems to be a dying skill. (And is one of my pet peeves) Why pick on something that seems to be difficult for people to do to an adequate standard?

          • momofone

            I love the attempt at being condescending via “kid,” though it’s likely that the majority of the people here are considerably older than you.

          • Verboten

            Age isn’t about times around Sol, it is about having sound logic.

          • momofone

            Ah. Well, I hope you find some.

          • corblimeybot

            My husband and i work three combined jobs, you fucking tool.

          • Verboten

            Go get an education then.

          • MaineJen

            But not a medical education. You don’t need that. It’s just people doing regular things, after all.

          • Verboten

            Yea, more idiotic tripe from the left…

            I bet you think automechanics are also magicians.

          • MaineJen

            Keep digging yourself in. It’s quite entertaining.

          • Verboten

            Not digging, you are the one sitting on an ever-growing pile of BS.

          • N

            Yes, and before all, you know, we don’t neeeeeed doctors and hospitals, if we are tough enough, we can do everything for ourselves. You know, Verboten can stitch himself up if needed. I could have had my unassisted home cesarian, after all. I’m just too soft. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • LeighW

            “the sense of entitlement that the millennials feel”

            I love that argument.

            Did this generation pull those “entitlements” out of their asses?
            Are they wrong for wanting the same opportunities their parents had? Affordable housing, affordable education, a livable wage.

            But you got yours so f*ck everyone else.
            Just remember who’ll be wiping your ass and giving you your medication when you’re old and frail.

          • Verboten

            Do you know how hard my parents fought to earn what they had? You are spoiled out of your mind. Leave, we don’t need you.

          • LeighW

            Your parents, my grandparents. They were the great generation. You? Not so much.
            They stormed beaches to keep people like this from destroying lives.
            You invited him in and gave him the keys.

          • Verboten

            No, you invited in the enemy circa 1950 and you continue to spout the same tripe that you were trained to spout.

          • Guest

            Dunbar sat up like a shot. “That’s it,” he cried excitedly. There was something missing-all the time I knew there was something missing-and now I know what it is.” He banged his fist down into his palm. “No patriotism,” he declared.

            “You’re right,” Yossarian shouted back. “You’re right, you’re right, you’re right. The hot dog, the Brooklyn Dodgers. Mom’s apple pie. That’s what everyone’s fighting for. But who’s fighting for the decent folk? Who’s fighting for more votes for the decent folk? There’s no patriotism, that’s what it is. And no matriotism, either.”

          • Guest

            Yossarian shot skeet, but never hit any. Appleby shot skeet and never missed. Yossarian was as bad at shooting skeet as he was at gambling. He could never win money gambling either. Even when he cheated he couldn’t win, because the people he cheated against were always better at cheating too. These were two disappointments to which he had resigned himself: he would never be a skeet shooter, and he would never make money.

          • Verboten

            Yoss is pretty dumb if he thinks gambling is the only way to make money.

          • Guest

            “It takes brains not to make money,” Colonel Cargill wrote in one of his homiletic memoranda he regularly prepared for circulation over General Peckem’s signature. “Any fool can make money these days and most of them do. But what about people with talent and brains? Name, for example, one poet who makes money.”

            “T. S. Eliot,” ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen said in his mail-sorting cubicle at Twenty-Seventh Air Force Headquarters, and slammed down the telephone without identifying himself.

          • Verboten

            “Name, for example, one poet who makes money.”

            Such a good line.

          • MaineJen

            And you don’t understand one word of it.

          • Verboten

            Oh, sure, you are so much smarter than I am…lmao…

      • Guest

        It was love at first sight.

        The first time Yossarian saw the chaplain he fell madly in love with him.

      • Madtowngirl

        Get gud noob, your trolling skills are lame.

        • Verboten

          Just stating a fact. Anyone that honestly is scared that someone the USA is going to turn into a fascist country is out of their minds and hopped up on the lying media. Trump, for all of his flaws, has been pro-gay, won awards for hiring policies regarding minorities, and is well-known as a good host. The only people in danger are the corrupt politicians. We need to work together to clean out Washington, Republican and Democrat alike. Our country is going off the rails, we need lower taxes, secure borders, and sound trade deals. If Trump can deliver on those, and we the people handle the corruption, we can start winning.

          • momofone

            A good host? Who the fuck cares? This is not a Junior League party, FFS.

          • Verboten

            You are just another idiot. We don’t need you, go to Canada…wait, they won’t take you. Try Cuba.

          • momofone

            LOL. If I need your advice, I’ll be sure to ask.

          • Verboten

            No, it isn’t advice. It is me telling you that we don’t need you.

          • momofone

            “…go to Canada…wait, they won’t take you. Try Cuba.”

            Hmmm. Sounds advice-y to me. And of course exceedingly classy, in keeping with your overall tone.

          • Verboten

            Well, to be fair, Canada actually won’t take you.

          • momofone

            I’m not sure what your fixation is with Canada, or where you got the idea that I would even consider leaving. I’m not going anywhere. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Verboten

            Ah, lucky you live there already, Canada is much more strict on immigration than the USA is.

          • momofone

            Seems like you’ve investigated it quite thoroughly. Keeping your options open?

          • N

            Perhaps it is not an advice at all, but more a threat. “Leave before we throw you out, we don’t need you!”
            That is his tone overall.

  • Gatita

    Someone I work with shared this with me: “My niece in New York was spit on while on the subway the she was called an illegal and told to go back to her country. My niece doesn’t even speak Spanish, she’s 3rd generation.”

    That girl could be me. And New York is my home. And now people like me are refugees in our own country. I can’t stop crying.

    • BeatriceC

      sigh. This, more than any policy change he proposed, is what scares and saddens me.

    • momofone

      I am so sorry.

    • MaineJen

      People suck.

    • MB

      WTH is wrong with people?! The world has gone mad.

  • BeatriceC

    So I’ve had some time to think. I’m still horrified, but as far as policy goes, I’m not as scared as I was yesterday. The US government moves slowly. That’s infuriating at times, but a good thing in times like this. Many republicans are moving away from their party and have publicly disavowed Trump. I think some of those will come back into the fold, but some will think the damage has been done and won’t be so quick to just rubber stamp everything. Additionally, the pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies are making money hand over fist due to the ACA, and they’re traditionally strong republican lobbyists, and they will have a thing or two to say about repealing the ACA. The senate majority is extremely slim, and those moderate republicans might decide they’d rather piss off their party than piss off their people. Either way, they’re likely out of a job in two years, and it’s a lot easier for a politician to change parities than to re-enter the good graces of one that’s turned against them. So I think that while some damage will definitely be done, it won’t be as bad, or as fast, as I’d feared yesterday.

    That said, I’m still feeling the same way I felt yesterday in one aspect. While his policies are likely to be bad, I’m less scared of them than I am of the violence and hatred he’s incited in his followers. Living in California, and being a middle class white family, we’re somewhat insulated, but I fear for the people in other states who are not white, not middle class, not Christian, not straight. The damage that has already been done will take decades to fix.

    • MaineJen

      This is exactly what I told my son the other day. The president is not the king. He doesn’t make all of the rules by himself. I’m super nervous about the supreme court justices thing, though.

      • BeatriceC

        The SCOTUS has made some pretty bold and daring moves, even with Scalia still alive. I’m not fatalistic about them either. I think any fundamentalist conservative will face a challenge getting approved, with only small majorities in congress. It’s still very possible, but I think there’s hope for somebody a little less fundamentalist than most of us fear.

        And I really hope Ginsberg is just mean enough not to die for another four years. If anybody can hang on out of spite, it’s her.

        • MaineJen

          Notorious RBG!

    • MaineJen

      You can bet that I’ll be leaning hard on my Republican senator, Susan Collins. She’s one of the few remaining moderates. I haven’t agreed with every decision she’s made, but I think she could serve as a voice of reason for the next few years.

      • swbarnes2

        She’s in the party whose slogan is “Grab them by the pussy”. You have to judge a person by their choices, and that’s her choice.

  • MB

    I thought at first that Hillary won the popular vote, slim win though it was, but now I’m reading it could be up to 1 mil more votes. That’s crazy. I think all the re-districting might be one of the causes, although there are other issues too. It’s just a general ongoing, historical obsession with preserving rural values vs. city values.

    Rural America is being weighted with more priority than city-dwellers. How can their votes be worth more than someone that lives in say San Francisco? Why are those votes worth more than someone else’s? If California has 69X more people than Wyoming, why do they only get 18X’s as many electoral votes?

    The whole thing is bananas! It’s like giving some dude in Wyoming 2 or 3 ballots more than some dude in San Francisco, let’s ignore the fact that some dude in Wyoming is X% more likely to be white, rural dude vs X% in California that is likely to be non-white or gay or city-dwelling or I don’t know college-educated (though not necessarily).

    I just don’t understand why some people’s votes somehow have more value than those in the city. It should be 1 to 1. Popular vote is the only way this happens.

    • MaineJen

      I feel a sudden need to visit Comedy Central’s Screaming Booth.

    • Heidi

      Here in my part of Tennessee conspicious gerrymandering happens. I live in Knoxville in the city. The city dwellers are generally liberal, our city mayor is liberal, but segregation is still a very real fact. The county, however, is white and conservative. They’ve made sure minorities and liberals votes towards representatives really don’t count. This is how we end with embarrassments like Stacey Campfield, who is fortunately gone at least. To me, this electoral college thing is another form of gerrymandering.

    • Box of Salt

      This is why there is both a House of Representatives and a Senate.

      The rules are different: the Senate give equal weight to each state regardless of population.

      And the Electoral College is weighted by population (same as the House) as of the last census (now 2010).

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Trump’s victory was a surprise, but it’s not a mandate; he didn’t even win the popular vote.

    So here’s my question:

    Republicans thought it was perfectly acceptable to deny the legitimacy of Obama’s presidency despite the fact that he clearly won (blocking his appointments and legislation), shouldn’t we ALL be questioning the legitimacy of Trump’s presidency and vowing to block his appointments and legislation?

    • FallsAngel

      Two points:
      1. As Michelle Obama said, “When they go low, we go high” .
      2. We really don’t need to gum everything up for another 4 years, after 8 of this obstructionism.

    • Brooke Dunne

      I wonder if you stopped to consider how many of your readers are Republicans.

      The GOP controls the House, Senate, and the White House. That’s a mandate.

      • Box of Salt

        That’s a mandate? Only by George W Bush’s definition. And he too lost the popular vote.

      • baileylamb

        Gerrymandering does not a mandate make. Play stupid games win stupid prizes, or did you forget the past 8 years?

  • Alcharisi

    My wife and I are going to set up small monthly donations to a small slate of groups that will hopefully do some effective damage control. Can anyone on this board steer me toward a group working on climate change that ISN’T knee-jerk anti-genetic engineering or anti-nuclear power?

  • MaineJen

    I haven’t been on Facebook or watched/listened to the news in two days. I just can’t.

    I’m going to fight back against hate in the only way I can: by raising two kids who are kind, generous and open-hearted.

    • FallsAngel

      Actually, that’s probably a good idea (to stay off social media and the news). We didn’t watch yesterday until the evening local news at 9 PM. My daughter called me all upset, but she was going to work and listened to a podcast about gymnastics leotards on that way and that helped somewhat, she said. By last night, she was feeling a little better.

  • Pck

    The American people had the opportunity to express there wishes through the ballot box. The result is out and Trump won a fair democratic election.
    I cannot believe the absolute hypocrisy and sour grapes reflected in the media today.
    Absolutely pathetic, bizarre and hypocritical.

    • Empliau

      Hillary Clinton has 200,000 more votes than Donald Trump. As far as I can tell he is legally the president-elect because of the electoral college, but the wishes expressed through the ballot box were not for him but for her. Get your facts right if you’re going to judge.

      • Pck

        Nope, that is not how the electoral college works.
        Remember how livid you lefties were when Trump even suggested he would wait for the election to say if he accepts it.
        Isn’t that exactly what you are doing?
        Hypocrisy.

        • Empliau

          WTF do you mean? She has more votes “through the ballot box”. He has more electoral college votes. That means he won, but that does NOT mean that it represents the wishes of the people. Nobody (that I know of) is saying that we don’t accept the results of the election, but it is a misrepresentation to say that it represents the wishes of the people when he is 200,000 votes behind her.

          • Pck

            Sure.

          • Who?

            He represents and leads the US now. But his victory was hardly a landslide. Let’s hope his presidential acceptance speech is his true voice, not another one of his convenient personas.

          • CanDoc

            Yes! I listened and crossed my fingers, and thought the same thing.

        • CanDoc

          I absolutely accept the result: Trump will be president. But I recognize that the results are more nuanced than that; for example, Clinton won the popular vote, the urban vote, the minority vote, and women’s votes. But Trump recognized that there is a huge group of Americans who are hurting – really hurting – and worried about jobs, the future, immigrants (legal and not) damaging the future of America; this group includes most white rural men, but a decent segment of the population elsewhere, too. Many of them have racist and misogynist ideas, but many of them don’t – they’re just scared of the future and don’t want more of the same. You can’t blame them for voting to try to provide some perceived security for their future. Unfortunately, the “not-more-of-the-same” package includes a man who has said and done some very unsavoury things.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You know who doesn’t accept the Electoral college?

          Donald Trump, of course
          https://twitter.com/ABC/status/796707901259862017

          • Pck

            You mean president elect Trump.

        • MaineJen

          Tell me honestly that, if Trump had lost the electoral vote, he wouldn’t be screaming right now on Twitter that the system was rigged against him. Go ahead and tell me that with a straight face.

          • Pck

            But he won and you are all screaming.

    • Azuran

      Most people are not actually saying that the election was rigged or anything like that. They just can’t believe how so many people in their own country supported a lying, racist, sexist sexual predator.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      He didn’t win a demoncratic election; he won the electoral college. That’s a critical difference. He had fewer votes and has no mandate since the majority of people didn’t vote for him.

      • 655321

        Says the pro-Autism MD.

        • Heidi

          Says the pro-SSPE, pro-lockjaw, pro-meningitis, pro-dead children whose username refers to a fictional sociopath.

          • 655321

            At least you got the username correct. A 20% correct ratio is still a bad FAIL, unless you’re a pro ball player.

        • OttawaAlison

          What does that even mean? She’s for vaccination and understands that autism is a part of human diversity(and not caused by vaccination). 2 of my brothers are in the spectrum. My father most likely was too.

          • 655321

            Autism is not part of the human “diversity” any more than lung cancer caused by smoking is.

          • OttawaAlison

            A). Even if autism were caused by vaccines, that’s not an apt comparison.

            B). Probably some many highly intelligent people through history were on the spectrum.

            C). You’re just being a shitdisturber, bored I guess? Maybe go-away Troll.

          • 655321

            A) It is a very good comparison. Not all smokers get lung cancer, not all kids suffer catastrophic adverse vaccine reactions.
            2) Probably=Nothing. An opinion.
            3) If calling people out who post BS, lies, and push certain agendas for special interests makes me a troll, sign me up.

          • OttawaAlison

            Nope, still not as smoking kills half of its long term habitual users (as in some will have died before getting lung cancer from a stroke or heart attack.. this is personal my dad died from smoking).

            B). Well autism runs in my family, my grandfather was a highly successful lawyer with autistic tendencies. So yes, very much do. Hermits, people put away in asylums, this isn’t a new phenomenon. I studied history, if you believe that history is written by the victors, it’s not a shock that many people with special needs were left out and only the autistic people with superior ability are left in.

            C). This post is bemoaning the uprise in hatred and has nothing to do with vaccines and those who take studies like “mercury causes brain damage” and then use such studies out of context to make the conclusion that autism is brain damage from another kind of mercury that is rarely used in vaccines anymore (and when that is disproven finding another thing in vaccines that causes autism). So in this context coming on and spilling your vitriol is trolling.

            D). Most of us are devastated that a fascist asshole will be in power.

            E). But as I’m sure you’re one who is “always right and let’s stick it to the mainstream man”, this will be my last post to you because really, I’m not going to convince you of anything different.

          • Nick Sanders

            I repeat, go fuck yourself.

          • 655321

            Looks like someone is having a meltdown…you need a safe space because your precious snowflake feelings got hurt? Advice, if other peoples posts bother you that much, you should avoid making a fool of yourself online.

          • Nick Sanders

            Or maybe I just don’t like being compared to cancer. You can fuck off.

          • 655321

            No thanks.

        • Gatita

          As the mother of an autistic kid: Fuck you

          • 655321

            No thanks, I’m married.

        • Nick Sanders

          Go fuck yourself you ignorant, bigoted pig.

          • Mishimoo

            Thank you! That’s exactly what I was about to say on reading that nonsense.

          • 655321

            Lol, says the guy who actually cited thoughtscapsim hoping to be taken seriously.

    • MaineJen

      Ballot box: “We want Hillary.”

      Electoral college: “Nope.”

      Hillary supporters: “……….okay?”

      Trump supporters: “SOUR GRAPES”

    • Heidi

      Trump could have won the popular vote by 99% and I don’t have to think the American people made the best decision and I can feel whatever I want about it. Fact is he didn’t actually win the popular vote. Unfortunately in this election, the slim minority got their wish.

    • MB

      OMG–I literally, coffee just came out of my nose. Yes, please. Let’s respect the wishes of the ballot box.

      I don’t think you’d like the results if government process respected the wishes of the ballot box. Now that you have been informed, and you now know that Hillary won the popular vote, that is to say in other terms, MORE PEOPLE voted for her at the ballot boxes, are you going to revise your statement? If so, it should rather read “The American people had the opportunity to express their* wishes and then have those wishes declined”.

      How pathetic, bizarre and hypocritical that you talk about the chance to express wishes through the ballot box, and that is the absolute opposite of what has happened in reality.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Do you seriously expect us to believe that Trumpkins would have respected the outcome of the election of Trump won the popular vote but lost the Electoral College? They didn’t respect the outcome of the election of Obama and he crushed the opposition.

  • CanDoc

    The world is changing. I can watch it but feel like there’s nothing I can do about it… Brexit, Trump, radicalization of young French muslims, attempted coup in Turkey, election of Duterte in the Philippines…. so much hate, so much fear. My heart is broken.
    My American friends, I wish you unity and peace in the coming difficult years.

  • Sue

    From the other side of the world, many of us are worried that xenophobia, racism, super-walls and uber-borders will now be seen as having some sort of endorsement. Our efforts to oppose these need to be re-doubled.

    • N

      Upvoted! I would also Upvote Candoc! We probably can’t do a lot, but lets do what we can, and not loose all hope. …

  • Amazed

    How long do you think it’s going to be before Trump leads the way for removing the sanctions against Russia? The Crimea scenario will repeat itself soon enough. Guess I’d better go down our south coast over here while it’s still ours. Not that the north coasts are much better.

    I really wanted to see the USA one day but I guess it won’t happen now, right? Because, you know, I might decide to stay iilegally and single-handedly ruin your economics.

    Still, the Crimea scenario scares me more.

  • BeatriceC

    My son gives me hope. He’s just a few months away from being a legal adult. I’ve been moping about the house all day, not sure what to think. My son has wanted to talk about all this, off and on. He’s sad for his friends, but doesn’t know what he can do. He tells, me that even though he doesn’t know what to do, he has to do something, because he’s a middle class white male, and that’s the only type of person who apparently matters, and if he’s going to make sure that other people matter too, then he has to use his unearned position of potential influence wisely.

    My dearest hope is that there are more young men like him out there; that I don’t have the only one, and that his generation will pick up the pieces of this current disaster and build something truly wonderful.

    • Your son is what I hope mine will be in a few years.

  • New Mom

    This restores my faith in humanity-There are now anti-trump protests going on in cities all across the US. So far it’s been peaceful, although I am worried that the trump-loving gun-nuts might show up and try to stop them.

  • Amazed

    God! Just a few days ago, we had a measly 7 – you read that right, SEVEN – percent of people here recognizing the best chance to not sink (further) into the swamp of corruption and subjection to Putin’s Russia. That’s right, the people here elected president a fucking (very recently) retired general because you know, that’s just what we need, a heroic general defending us with his bare breast, I guess, from all but Russia because Putin just loves us so much and there’s no need to defend ourselves from him. Of course, he’s in Russian pay. I watched and I couldn’t believe. And then a friend told me, “You’ll see, they’ll elect Donald Duck over there. The world is REALLY this mad. And normal people will be as aghast as we’re now here.”

    Today, I woke up to a sarcastic Skype message from a friend, “Let’s congratulate each other, we got Trump!” That must have been the only occasion in some 15 years when I found myself fully awake without two cups of coffee. Somehow, I couldn’t believe that we’d be served TWO clowns within days of each other, yet that’s what I got.

    The silver lining? Here, less than a third of people voted for the general or his sister in mind ,the candidate for the ruling party. Over there, it’s the fact that Trump’s victory is by no means the will of the overwhelming majority of American people. There is still hope. There must be.

  • Maud Pie

    Thank you all so much for providing a community of support on this dark day. I especially thank the non-Americans for recognizing that half of us knew better, and many of us are horrified. I’ve had an atypical need to reach out to people today–I even spoke with strangers on elevators (in circumstances where I could be reasonably certain they didn’t vote for him). I am grateful I could come here for solace.

    • LaMont

      I did some elevator outreach as well. I keep recommending The Onion, b/c *they killin it* as per usual for dark days.

  • Mishimoo

    For people looking at migrating to Australia, here’s the 2016/2017 occupations list for skilled migrants: http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/article/2016/05/17/want-migrate-australia-2016-17-skilled-occupations-list-sol-announced

    Some of our outback areas are screaming for General Practitioners, there’s lovely scenery and the pay is amazing.

    • CandiO

      Oh my, apparently they have NP needs!

      • Mishimoo

        Yup! Nurse practitioners really help carry the load of care in our busy hospitals and often provide care in remote places where there are no doctors; we need more.

    • MaineJen

      I saw Medical Laboratory Scientist on that list. Score!!

  • StephanieA

    I am devastated. My two very young boys are Hispanic, as is my husband. NPR was discussing the possibility of Trump choosing 3 supreme justices and therefore being able to overturn Roe vs Wade. I started crying. Screw these white men thinking they have any clue what it’s like to be a woman, or a minority, or anything other than rich and white.

    Serious question- how are those of you handling family that voted for him? I love my parents and sister, but I feel so deeply betrayed by their support of him, especially since their grandchildren are Hispanic.

    • BeatriceC

      I don’t have any contact with my family of origin, but if I did, I think this would be the tipping point for cutting them off. I know one of my sisters wouldn’t have voted for Trump, but I think the rest of them would have.

    • Nick Sanders

      I can’t even bring myself to ask my dad who he voted for.

      • guest

        Me, neither.

    • Roadstergal

      I’m sure my mother-in-law would have happily voted Trump. Fortunately, she died last year. I should be more charitable, but I’m not.

      (FIL voted HRC.)

    • Houston Mom

      I’m ignoring it in my family but thankfully it’s confined to the in-laws. They are self involved and oblivious to the outside world beyond Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and QVC. One was dumb-founded that another family member was upset by her vote for Trump. She said it really didn’t matter much who was in the White House anyway. She always votes Republican that’s just who she is. She has never heard a tenth of the horrifying Trump history or explanations of how impossible most of his promises would be to implement. She is not capable of critical thought. What is the point of attempting a real conversation with someone like this anyway? She pays no attention to current events and after voting for Trump probably won’t notice him much again because she doesn’t think it’s important.

      • Empliau

        I wonder, if the story of Trump throwing out a disabled 12-year-old boy from one of his Florida rallies had got more press, would it have turned more people off him? In the immortal words of Hillary Clinton, “Who does that?”

        • Pck

          The election is over and Trump won.
          Move on.

          • Empliau

            Move on yourself, coprolite.

          • Pck

            Nice.

    • mdstudentwithkids

      My father and brothers voted for Trump. I am gay, with a wife, and two children (and one on the way). My father texted me this morning saying he is glad Trump won but not to worry because “he probably won’t do anything against gay people and I still support you.” I held it together until then, but at that point I had to run out of class and cry. I honestly don’t know how to handle it. I am sorry you have to deal with that, it is very hard.

      • N

        You know, there are places in the world where gay people are respected. A very little country in the middle of Europe has a gay prime minister… Don’t loose hope too much…

    • Megan

      My aunt voted for him, says she’s happy with her choice, used a racial slur about Michelle Obama and then said we should all try to get along. Whole lots of WTFery going on in my neck of the woods. I teach new doctors a lot as part of my job and many of them are foreign grads. They are terrified of the consequences of this election and their patients have felt emboldened to call them “rag heads” or worse. These are smart, caring people. Sorry if I can’t just sing Kumbaya and call it a day. Hate speech has been normalized by our president elect.

    • New Mom

      Some of my family is horrified that Trump will be president, but they didn’t vote because “Hillary is a crook and supports abortion”.

      My cousin(a cisgendered, straight, white male) announced that Donald Trump isn’t racist, or offensive to women. My husband pointed out to him that ” you -1.have a gay brother, 2. Have several family members who have been victims of sexual abuse. and it’s deeply hurtful to so vehemently support Trump given what he stands for.”
      my cousin responded by laughing and saying that none of that matters.

      My cousin is a state trooper.

      My husband told him that he doesn’t want him around our daughter because he doesn’t her growing up, seeing that attitude and thinking it’s normal. We’re worried that it would affect her self-worth.

      Aside from being scared for the future, I’m sad that this is tearing families apart. But I would much rather see their true colors and if need be, cut someone like that out of our lives.

  • Anna D

    I never thought that I would be so severely emotionally affected by the outcome of the election. As an immigrant, as a woman, as an American, I feel like today is a massive step back for all that was accomplished in the past few decades. I can only hope that there will be enough strength in our institutions to withstand for next four years with minimal damage.

    • Roadstergal

      I expect some pretty rapid gutting of the EPA, to start.

  • Irรจne Delse

    I’m so sorry. I’m not USian, nor do I live in this country, but if the ACLU or Planned Parenthood accept foreign donations, I’ll send some euros.

    • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

      I think they do, at least on the aclu.org Donate page they list State or Province and Country when you fill out the donation page. So does the Planned Parenthood page, I donate specifically to the PP of Middle and East Tennessee as that is where my Trump voting in-laws are from… I sometimes donate to my local one but since I live in small blue Northeastern state I figured the ones in the deep south need the help more.

      • OttawaAlison

        I’ve donated to American only charities before, it can be done.

  • New Mom

    This is horrific. I keep thinking it has to be a nightmare. My cousin is gay. I’m seriously concerned for his safety and the safety of his fiance. My husband and I both have family members who voted for Trump. They would vote for anyone who hates gay people and want to take away women’s reproductive rights.

    I’m really scared for the future. Feeling physically ill.

  • BeatriceC

    I had a serious “what if” conversation with my oldest son this morning. He will be 18 in six months. He’s utterly uninsurable if the ACA is repealed. He’s slightly better off than many, because he does qualify for SSI, but if he wants to get an actual job, which he does, he will no longer qualify for medicaid, which he does now through SSI. I dug out financial records and showed him how even as a child, when there were exceptions to pre-existing conditions denials, I was still paying in the neighborhood of $20-$25k per year on his medical care (double that, and that’s what I was paying for both kids), even after insurance. I explained to him that his likelihood of getting insurance as an adult without the ACA is basically zero and that he needs to start making decisions with that in mind. We discussed my reasoning for applying for SSI. I do qualify, but barely, and the actual monthly check is in the single digits, but I did it for the health coverage, not for the money. I explained to him that he’s going to have to make a similar decision. He’s probably going to continue to stay on SSI throughout college. Good. That will give him a cushion so he can finish undergrad. Hopefully by then we will know for sure what’s going to happen with the ACA.

    • Nick Sanders

      I have two pre-existing conditions, and so when the ACA gets repealed, I’m not going to be able to get insurance either. And I’ve already been turned down by SSI. I’m extremely scared.

      • BeatriceC

        I’m hoping that there are enough centrist/moderate republicans that appealing the ACA turns out to be not so easy. This is my last hope.

        • LaMont

          They’re too scared for their seats. Even if they don’t want to, they have to. They still remember Eric Cantor and what happens when you don’t cater to the crazy.

        • Nick Sanders

          With my recent job offer, I had been planning on shopping for a plan. Now I don’t think I’ll bother.

    • Mrs.Katt the Cat

      We’re currently on medicaid and assistance, haven’t tried to explain to my family that voted for Trump how that’s going to turn out for us . . . hopefully we can get back on our feet pretty quick.

    • Cody

      Oh what the fuck. That is so shitty. I don’t understand how people can vote against people like you. My daughter (we’re Canadian) just learned today that in other places, people have to pay for doctors and other medical care. She just about cried. To her this seemed like a horrible injustice and I had to agree with her.

      • N

        I from the middle of Europe can’t understand that either. How on earth are you going to pay every little doctor visit / birth of your children and god beware if it is a C-section / Surgery if needed / Cancer treatment, …. I mean a part one can pay, but the biggest part must be paid by some health care system? What are you going to do, if you have something treatable but no money? Just suffer in silence and die? Like in third world countries???

        • N

          I have a sponsored child in Africa, could I soon get one too in the US???

        • Anion

          If you have something treatable and no money, you walk into the nearest public hospital and ask for treatment. By federal law they must give it to you. You make payment arrangements later, and they will work with you on that.

          It’s not ideal, no, but it’s there. My late FIL had prostate cancer; that’s not why he died, because our local public hospital provided him with excellent treatment and care. He went into remission and remained so until his death from other causes (for which he also received care at that same hospital with no discussion of money until later).

          • Heidi

            Except people many times have the choice of completely bankrupting their families to pay their medical bills or dying. What’s billed to the out of pocket payer and what’s billed to insurance is a YUGE difference. It’s not even not ideal. It’s criminal.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wrong. They only have to treat you if it is life-threatening.

          • MaineJen

            And sometimes not even then. If you need a bone marrow transplant, your insurance limits the number of donors they can look at for you. If you need a kidney transplant and don’t have medicare or private insurance, they won’t even look at you.

            And if you do get your transplant, and you’re on medicare, your immunosuppressants are only covered for three years.

          • FallsAngel

            Exactly! And I don’t understand what you’re saying, Anion. Do you mean a clinic at a public hospital? Because ERs do not provide any non-urgent outpatient care. Many decades ago, when I was a nursing student, the hospitals associated with the University of Pittsburgh had “clinics” that took low income patients. Many public hospitals are just hospitals, with no outpatient care.

    • Anna D

      Terrifying article from VOX, how Trump’s possible next moves will decimate white middle and working class. http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/9/13572172/donald-trump-white-working-class

  • Our deepest sympathies on your election. It is heart wrenching – and aching, thinking of all that might well be lost. Small solace – the US of A is not it’s president, it is its people, and more people wanted Love to trump Hate – even if the distribution of those people wasn’t quite right to secure a win. This is beyond your control – do what is in your control, and work to make it a little less awful. There’s a tremendous opportunity to learn and to grow – I only hope the tuition cost does not prove to be astronomical. Amy – keep doing what you do, it is needed now more than ever.

  • MaineJen

    What broke my heart the most was having to tell my son when he woke up this morning. He is 7, and he was super excited about the election. I told him who won, and he said “Mom…but…WHY?”

    The real answer is: because this country is not what I thought it was.

    • momofone

      I had an almost identical conversation with my nine-year-old. He was so excited about going with me to vote, and so excited about hearing results (fortunately he was in bed when I saw results last night, so I was able to cry and rant some before talking to him). My son’s reaction was almost exactly the same as yours. He wanted to know why people elected someone who says mean things about people and makes fun of others and only cares about himself.

      I’m not even sad it wasn’t Clinton; I just wish it had been anyone but him.

      • MaineJen

        I just learned that she WON the popular vote.

        It’s 2000 all over again…only much, much worse.

        • momofone

          I can’t even find a word that fits how I feel.

          Disheartened/disappointed/discouraged feel inadequate.

        • demodocus

          the electoral college is lunacy

          • Bugsy

            The fact that my husband and I – who live in Canada but are absentee voters for Florida – have Democratic votes that are worth more than the Democratic votes of my parents, people who legitimately live in the U.S.

            Yep, I see nothing wrong w this picture.

      • N

        It is not understandable for kids. Don’t we teach them to not be mean, to be nice to everyone? To not make fun of other people? To share? To respect other peoples feelongs?? And yet with that attitude you can become POTUS???? Why should we be nice than to each other?

        • Houston Mom

          It is hard a hard thing to see evil rewarded like this. But I will tell my son that bad people are not always punished and good people are not always rewarded. We will still do what is right because it is right.

          • N

            Yes of course, what else can we do?

      • Gatita

        My 9-year-old cried and said, “We aren’t going to have the first girl president?”

        • Pck

          Because she is a criminal?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Only one of them is facing trial, of course. But hey, facts don’t matter anymore

    • N

      My almost 9 years old and my 5 years old where scared when i told them this morning that T could win and shocked when this afternoon kids in the school bus told them that T had actually won and will start war now with every country in the world (childrens view of things). We are in the middle of Europe here, and that is how far this goes. It must feel ways ways worse for all of you in the US. I can not even imagine how scared you and you children must be…

      • momofone

        My son said he’s going to a dig a bunker so we’ll be safe when Trump “destroys humanity.” Ugh.

        • Nick Sanders

          Is there room in that bunker for me? I can cookโ€ฆ

          • momofone

            If you can cook, I’m sure he can add a room.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d even share my videogames.

          • momofone

            You’re in.

      • Amazed

        If that’s any consolation, OUR almost elected president here (we’re voting on a ballotage in four days) isn’t opposed to getting us out of the EU. Eastern Europe here. A little more lunacy than the one you’re dealing with right now. And Putin has recently announced that he wants us back in his area of influence. Putin, the new USA president’s buddy. Lucky us, eh?

        Not that it’s a great comfort but it’s a little more crazy here. We actually voted an EXIT president. Sweet.

        I despair of the world.

        • N

          No, not comforting at all. Not Eastern Europe, but still Europe here. Loosing a country to Putin does not sound that good.

  • mabelcruet

    I honestly thought right up to the very end that it was somehow a huge big conspiracy/scam thing, to put up the very worst person you could have to make sure that HRC got in because no one in their right mind would contemplate him as a contender. It’s like Brexit, only much, much worse. I genuinely feel the world is far less safe and he frightens me. I can only hope that he’s going to be a figurehead and allowed to open buildings and preside over state dinners but that someone with at least half a brain is going to be the power behind the throne.

    • Roadstergal

      Unfortunately, the person with half a brain who is the power behind the throne is an establishment, conservative, evangelical, homophobic, misogynistic white boy.

      • mabelcruet

        Dear heavens, it couldn’t get any worse.

        The only thing to look forward to now is Kanye 2020.

        • Mishimoo

          The Rock also said that he would consider running, and he seems half decent.

        • Cody

          But he would be the greatest president of all time!!! All time!!!

  • MB

    I’ve been crying all day. My husband voted Hillary. He is devastated too…But, still, I don’t think he understands how it feels. How could he? He’s a white, heterosexual man. His rights aren’t about to be trampled on. I felt a little alone with my feelings. Nice to see other people out there that feel the same way.

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Up all night having literal panic attacks. So many of my patients are going to lose their healthcare coverage.

    • Mel

      *hugs*

      I don’t know what to do about that. I know a lot of people who are going to lose their coverage – but are completely unaware of that fact and I feel sick.

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        My daughter graduates in 6 months from college. She called me at 3 am crying while driving home from her job. She asked me if she should do some of her job search in Canada as she is already living in upstate NY. I told her it was probably not a bad idea as I will not be able to keep her on my insurance if they repeal/trash the ACA (I realize Canada has fairly stingent immigration requirements). I am sick and depressed but my LGBTQ and non-white friends and relatives are terrified. That I know some of my in-laws voted for Trump makes it worse. I think I will go donate to Planned Parenthood and the ACLU again.

        • Cody

          She’s young and has a college degree. She has a good chance depending on what her degree is in.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        The worst part has been hearing my white Medicare patients gloating about how Obamacare is going to be repealed. I really, really want to tell them to fuck off, and ask them why it’s OK for them to get gov’t guaranteed healthcare but not OK for anyone else to have that privilege.

        • Mel

          They should be careful what they wish for.

          Bush 2 got us into some deep debt problems while running Trump’s ideas of economics.

          At some point, we’re not going to be able to support Medicare+Social Security with non-existent taxes on an aging population not being replaced by healthy, young immigrants.

        • Houston Mom

          My Republican coworker who thinks Obamacare is awful doesn’t seem to realize that’s why her grown kids are on her insurance.

    • Amazed

      And most of those who oppose national healthcare coverage are so sure that they’d never need it. If the tables turn, if they need a prolonged and costly course of treatment, what are they going to do? But I guess that’s pointless in the face of, “Not MY money for those who can’t pay their own healthcare costs!”

      It can be any of us needing that at any given moment. Any of us. But no, let’s trumpet our superiority. We don’t NEED that coverage!

  • Megan

    Serious question to the Aussies here: Would a US D.O. degree be recognized in Australia? I pursued an osteopathic education because I specifically wanted to go into primary care and they train so many family docs but I realize my degree is not as portable as an MD because of the differences in what is an “osteopath” in other countries vs. in the US.

    • Puffin

      It’s starting to be recognized here in Canada (I think specifically BC and maybe Quebec acknowledge DOs) so you could consider that as well.

      • CandiO

        Any nurse practitioner jobs in Canada?

        • Cody

          A bit of a difficult time to be coming to Ontario as a nurse. We’ve had cuts for the last couple of years and it was a bit of trend for nurses to look for work in the US.

      • Megan

        My coworker recommended Winnipeg. Thoughts? I’ve only ever been to Toronto, Niagra and Montreal. At least Canada would be closer to family (though I loved loved loved Australia).

    • Mishimoo

      It’s on the list of skilled migrants for 2016/2017 (just released); here’s a link for the accreditation requirements. http://www.osteopathiccouncil.org.au/qualification_assessment.html

      • Sue

        Mishimoo (and Megan) – the osteopathic council in Aus covers osteopaths, who are more like chiropractors here (they do manual therapy – they don’t practice medicine).

        DO is now included under the list of recognised medical quals.

        • Mishimoo

          Oh awesome! That’s the information I was hoping for and couldn’t find, thank you!

    • Melaniexxxx

      I don’t know of anyone with a DO working in ‘medical’ primary care, osteopaths here are all trained as allied health clinicians.

    • Sue

      Hi, Megan

      The training of osteopaths in Aus is nothing like medical training, but the regulatory authorities here now recognise that DO has equivalence to MD, especially if you have conventional post-grad training.

      The list of medical schools recognised by the Australian Health Practitioners’ Registrationa Authority via the Australian Medical Council is here:
      http://www.amc.org.au/assessment/list-of-medical-schools
      (put US into field, you will get drop-down list).

      The pathway for international medical graduates into Aus is here:
      http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates.aspx

  • Empliau

    Bloody electoral college – a relic of eighteenth-century dealmaking with small and slave states. As of this moment, Hillary is ahead in the popular vote. There is a small margin of decency in the U.S., but it is undone by our fetishistic devotion to our Founding Fathers (sic. Sick as a dog …. apologies to dogs everywhere for dragging them into this.)

  • Heidi

    I’m not sure if I’m shocked. I grew up in possibly the most diehard conservative area of the country, northeast TN, so I was surrounded by this growing up. But I am deeply saddened and worried. There was always the little glimmer of hope the rest of the country wouldn’t be so reactionary and fearful and let something like this happen. I still hope it’s not as bad as it seems to me.

  • OttawaAlison

    I’m still in shock – just didn’t seem possible. I am still moving to the US next year barring disaster. I’ll be living in a Blue State and my husband has excellent insurance with his job, but I’m still worried for the people who don’t have blue eyes and blonde hair like me (heck My husband is a brunette, my daughter has his eye colour and my hair colour ), I’m worried for my LGBTQ+ friends, I’m worried for my daughter. I’m worried for the many immigrants my husband works with (and while my husband is an immigrant, he is white with a general Midwest accent that most Ontarians have – you cannot tell his first language is French). I’m worried for those who don’t practice Christianity. I’m worried for my disabled friends and those with pre-existing conditions.
    Years ago my mother said there would be an African-American in the Oval Office long before a woman, I hate that she was right. She hates that she was right 20 – 25 years ago.

    • OttawaAlison

      Just adding – I loved that the Obama was president and did tons of good, but my mom realized the reluctance to ever have a woman in power.

    • guest

      I said the same thing as your mother for years, mostly to my father who somehow truly believes that we’ve achieved equality already. I hated being right, too, and it’s got nothing to do with Obama. We could have theoretically elected our first black and female president in one and the same person, after all. It didn’t have to be like this. But I could see that it was.

      • OttawaAlison

        Michelle Obama needs to run in 2024. She’s squeaky clean and super smart and so many people love her.
        I’m also disappointed that the majority of white men and white women who voted voted for Trump.
        I keep being told that we’ve achieved equality too. I work in Diversity and Equity for a government agency, people don’t believe me that it’s tougher for a woman to get a head in the tech industry.

        • Empliau

          Why not 2020? Michelle asap!

        • Roadstergal

          I don’t know if you can be squeaky clean enough to not have a right-wing hate machine pore over every minute of your life and blow up everything they find.

        • guest

          I don’t think she wants to, though.

  • namaste863

    I learned two very important lessons last night: One, never again have faith in the…..sanity…..of the American people, and two: It’s 2016, and whether or not one is actually qualified to do a job is still beside the point…….as long as you have a dick.

    • momofone

      And are one.

    • Steph858

      As a Brit, I hereby declare on behalf of my country that we are willing to let bygones be bygones. The water has flowed under the bridge, and we are willing to take the states back under our wing. It’s not too late to rejoin us, and we promise to be benevolent colonialists.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        Promise to reinstitute teatime as well, and you’ve got my vote!

      • demodocus

        i dunno, there’s that brexit thing

        • Roadstergal

          And UKIP…

          • Steph858

            I would say “Well, UKIP is never going to get into power,” but given what happened with Trump saying that might jinx it …

      • namaste863

        Sure, why stop with ruining one country when we can ruin two?

  • Gene

    The sad thing is, I personally will likely benefit. I’m a rich Doctor, I’m white, I’m a US citizen. My tax burden will likely decrease. But I didn’t vote for me. I voted for my patients who need healthcare, for my childrens’ future, for everyone else who should be given the chance for health and happiness.

    Sadly, all the people who voted for Trump because their ACA premiums went up are going to be in for a rude awakening when the find that NO insurance is much more expensive.

    • Heidi

      I know we won’t be worst affected but I still worry for what the future holds for my son. Will he be drafted? When the people that thought they had so much to gain with a Trump nomination get nothing of what they wanted or needed, will anger and civil unrest make our schools and streets unsafe? My son could be gay or transgendered, and if he is, will this country be a safe and loving place for him?

    • Megan

      Me too. I’m sure my tax bill will be lower. But I was also voting for my children and my patients. I would be happy to pay half my salary in taxes if I knew that we would all have healthcare, maternity leave, education and childcare. Not a popular view in my area.

    • Mel

      Yeah, my mind is blown today. I’m worried sick about my Hispanic, African-American and LGBTQ+ friends – but I also realize that I have some power to protect them thanks to my melanin-deficient skin and eyes. My husband and I will probably end up about the same or slightly ahead under Trump’s economic plan.

      The people I can’t do anything to protect are my super-excited cousins by marriage. They really believe that Trump is going to magically change the economy so that they will have access to high-paying jobs with no post-secondary education or training. They can’t see that Trump’s plans will increase their tax burden, increase the cost of goods that are made overseas and will do nothing to increase their income.

      They are excited today, but I don’t think the next four years will be kind to them – and they can’t blame liberals anymore.

      • Roadstergal

        They always find a way to blame liberals. Bush and a conservative Congress shitcanned the economy, and Obama got blamed. Hell, blaming Hillary for ISIS was a winning strategy in this campaign.

        • Mel

          Yeah, but this time they are about to be betrayed by their alleged Savior.

          I never like watching people cut off their own noses to spite their faces – even if they made the choice freely.

        • BeatriceC

          My ex husband posted this morning about how this country got itself into this mess because the Democrats manipulate the Republican primaries so that the worst possible Republican candidate is put forth. I’ve never been so glad that he’s my ex husband.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh lord.
            Trump had the same advantage in the primaries that he had in the general – endless free publicity due to his reality-show antics.

    • Sue

      Well said, Gene. If we want a civil society, we raise public funds for those who need them.

  • Sean Jungian

    I’m shocked and stunned. Human rights in the U.S. took two steps forward the past 8 years – and now we’ve taken 20 steps back.

    Too shocked and numb to cry.

  • Spamamander, pro fun ruiner

    I cried myself to sleep last night. Still breaking into random tears this morning. My sister, who has been married to her wife for years now. My daughter, who is panromantic Ace. Me, who depends on the Medicaid expansion for my medications that keep me alive, without my antidepressants I wouldn’t be. My other daughter, with Down syndrome. Everyone I love and care about. And this country.

  • Guest

    I’ve been crying all morning. My husband is on disability and we make just enough to get by. We were covered under the ACA as a part of the medicaid expansion and its been literally lifesaving (he was actively suicidal when the coverage kicked in and we had no money for treatment). I’m pretty sure we’re going to lose our coverage now, and I’m devastated. We’re hopeful he can return to work, but there’s still no end date in sight. We don’t matter.

    And for my daughter, my friends and family of color, my immigrant friends, my LGBTQ friends, the people I love who have been told unequivocally – you don’t matter -I am so sick and sad.

    • Gatita

      I’m so sorry. My heart is breaking.

  • Roadstergal

    It’s really a beautiful day here, too stunningly gorgeous to be a day when half of my fellow Americans repudiated everything I stand for, from female bodily autonomy to multiculturalism to freaking vaccines.

    • Megan

      It was miserable and raining this morning in my neck of the woods; totally apropos.

      • Roadstergal

        I couldn’t believe how beautiful it was on the way to work. So stunning in the face of such a long, horrible night – it was surreal.
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22660913efdea3f6b81cf74d9fd7185745807fc94b5ddf720cefd0571e51b764.jpg

        • Empliau

          I turned off the TV and online news. I thought I would be better able to face the certainty of a Trump win in the morning. Best to get one more night of sleep.

          • Roadstergal

            I couldn’t do 2000 all over again and go to bed not knowing. Then I couldn’t sleep.

          • Megan

            Me too. Plus my baby was up all night. It’s like she knew. She wouldn’t stop crying. Beautiful pic, btw.

          • Roadstergal

            Wearing all black today.

          • Maud Pie

            I’m also dressed completely in black. Slightly O/T: my brother’s ex-wife, who has drunk more than her body volume of the Trump kool aid, asked me on FB why could I be so enraged by such a great man who loves America so much, yada yada. I bluntly responded “because I’m not a gullible idiot.” Blocking and unfriending her is the only good thing about today. Slightly more O/T: same ex SIL put her daughter in kiddy beauty contests and once asked if Mother Teresa was the pope’s wife. A stunning specimen of a Trumpbot.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh dear lord.

          • Megan

            I noticed for her concession speech, Hillary wore black as well. Wondered if that was on purpose…

          • Therese

            I think you missed what she was trying to express! It wasn’t the black that was relevant, it was the purple. Blue+red=purple. Her husband had a purple tie, so it definitely seemed like a deliberate choice, not a coincidence.

          • Dinolindor

            Wasn’t purple also a color for the women’s suffrage movement? White and purple?

          • Megan

            True!

          • Bugsy

            I blocked my one devout trump follower today as well. He had stalked me to another friend’s page – she had publicly posted an article about student protests in Seattle. He commented with how disrespectful the protests were.

            Rather than get into a discussion with this egotistical maniac about why a peaceful protest is actually a wonderful sign of democracy, I blocked him. Cleaned up my friends list nicely!!

          • Box of Salt

            Black pants, blue shirt.

          • MB

            Mine too. That was my first thought this morning. It’s like he knew what this all meant.

      • Heidi

        We’ve been battling wildfires here in Tennessee, which also seems totally apropos.

    • guest

      The sky is crying here. My three year old went out with the nanny and wanted to know why it’s so quiet today. It’s quiet because this neighborhood is extremely liberal and everyone is in mourning.

      • Verboten

        I was always wondering why I had this canoe…guess it was to enjoy a light river of regressive leftist tears. So beautiful, I think I’ll add a few tears of my own… *sniff*