Pro tip for anti-vaxxers: citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine

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When one of my sons was in the third grade, we had an argument about arithmetic, specifically division.

He had been struggling over his homework, trying to determine the answer to a word problem:

Whining that I don’t take your YouTube citation seriously is like whining that an MIT astrophysicist doesn’t take your styrofoam solar system model seriously.

If Jack has 18 pennies and wants to separate them into 3 groups, how many pennies will be in each group.

I pointed out that it was a division problem: 18 ÷ 3 = 6.

“No,” he wailed, “no it isn’t. That’s not the way my teacher explained it. You weren’t there. You didn’t hear what she said. You don’t know anything!”

I collected 18 pennies and put them on the table.

“Make 3 group out of these pennies and be sure each group has the same number of pennies,” I instructed.

It didn’t take him long to created three piles of 6 pennies each. He looked up at me with a shy smile and asked:

“How did you know?”

How did I know? I knew because I could draw on far greater arithmetic knowledge than he could. He knew very little about multiplication and division, fractions or percentages; and, of course, he knew nothing at all about algebra and calculus.

Arguing with anti-vaxxers reminds me of that episode because it is in many ways like arguing with 8 year olds. Their knowledge base is incredibly limited; their ability to go beyond basic sources of knowledge is profoundly restricted; and, on top of that, they have literally no idea how little they know.

Anti-vaxxers get incredibly frustrated arguing with me and for many of the same reasons that my 8 year old got frustrated. They don’t understand that what they’ve heard and read represents just a tiny fraction of the knowledge on the topic; their ability to go beyond plain language sources of knowledge into the scientific literature is profoundly restricted; and, on top of that, they have literally no idea how little they know.

They are proud of their “knowledge” garnered from websites, Facebook pages and YouTube videos. They don’t understand that citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine. No doubt Highlights Magazine is filled with lots of accurate information about the solar system, for example, and perhaps after reading the magazine you could build a solar system model using string and stryrofoam balls. But that doesn’t make you an astro-physicist.

Whining that I don’t take your YouTube citations seriously is no different from showing up at an MIT astrophysics class and whining that they don’t take your styrofoam solar system model seriously. The other astrophysics students would laugh at you and your lack of both knowledge and sophistication. Anti-vaxxers should understand that when you cite YouTube, those who have advanced knowledge of these topics are laughing at you for the same reason: you are merely displaying your lack of both knowledge and sophistication.

Most 8 year olds, when told by authority figures that Highlights Magazine or a third grade classroom don’t represent the limits of knowledge on a topic, will generally accept that when they know more, things will look different. In contrast, most anti-vaxxers, when told by science authorities that the websites, Facebook pages and YouTube videos that they’ve seen don’t represent the limits of knowledge on the topic of vaccination, refuse to accept that if they knew more, things would look very different.

Partly that’s because defiance of authority is an integral component of anti-vax advocacy. They literally believe they know more than authorities. That makes about as much sense as the third grader who thinks he knows more about division than someone who took college calculus. And most of the gambits favored by anti-vaxxers sound as foolish coming out of their mouths as they would if a 3rd grader berated his teacher.

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining to the teacher: “Just because you have a degree in mathematics doesn’t mean you know more arithmetic than me”?

Ridiculous, right? And it’s equally ridiculous for anti-vaxxers to whine: “Just because you have a degree in medicine doesn’t mean you know more immunology than me!”

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining: “You might have a fancy degree, but I bet you didn’t learn any division in your math PhD program”?

Hilarious, right? And it’s equally hilarious when anti-vaxxers whine: “Medical schools only spend one day on immunology!”

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining: “You’re just a shill for the math textbook industry?”

Sounds idiotic, right? And it’s equally idiotic for anti-vaxxers to whine to nearly all the doctors, research scientists and public health officials in the world, “you’re just a shill for Big Pharma.”

It can be charming when 3rd graders fail to understand how little they know about a topic despite the fact that they’ve completed 2nd grade. It’s not charming when someone with a only a high school diploma or an undergraduate degree in art fails to understand how little he knows about immunology.

It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect, first described in a classic paper Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments:

…[T]hose with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.

Anti-vaxxers suffer from this dual burden. Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.

They need to understand the depth and breadth of their own ignorance. Citing YouTube merely confirms their profound ignorance.

  • Mike Stevens

    Yes, it’s a cost benefit analysis looking at the short term consequences of vaccination.
    I cited it for the evidence on the case numbers of zoster, which Cia didn’t accept.
    Like I said, you can prevent or mitigate morbidity from zoster, and the increase will be a short to medium term one only, then it will disappear entirely.
    😉

    • Leslie

      That link says: “Mathematical modelling based on these results predicts that, by reducing circulating VZV, universal varicella vaccination will lead to a significant increase in zoster, which can last up to 50 years.”

      How is an increase in shingles that can last up to 50 years considered short to medium term? Furthermore, there is only speculation on your part that it will disappear entirely as the chickenpox vaccine is not 100% effective.

      • Mike Stevens

        The vaccine is 98-100% effective.
        Herd immunity requires around 93% vaccination. Exceed that and chickenpox could disappear completely.
        No chickenpox, no zoster.

        • Leslie

          The vaccine does not have a 98-100% effectiveness rate. Furthermore, Merck insert claims it is only effective for 10 years. So unless the entire global population is vaccinated for it, older children and adults risk contracting it when it is far more dangerous for them. And they would then still have the shingles risk as they age.

          This study confirms about 80% effectiveness with breakthrough incidences in previously vaccinated. The study also cannot confirm long term effectiveness of 2 doses. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064040#t=article

          • Mike Stevens

            Your study was one which was instrumental in the introduction of a second dose of varicella vaccine being given.
            The efficacy figures for 2 doses were exactly as I stated.
            Didn’t you realise your citation referred to only one dose? I guess not. Perhaps you should have read it more carefully.

            98% efficacy after 10 years:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14872179
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/203/3/312.long

          • Leslie

            “Results from this controlled study of the effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine indicate that administration of 2 doses was highly effective in preventing varicella in the first 2.5 years after implementation of the 2-dose schedule to prevent disease.”

            That doesn’t state 98% efficacy after 10 years as you claim. It also doesn’t say that 2 doses is confirmed to stop breakthrough chickenpox. It’s just conjecture:

            “A second dose of vaccine may be important not only to prevent breakthrough varicella and continuing transmission of the virus, but also to potentially lower the subsequent risk of developing zoster by decreasing latent infection with wild-type VZV. It will be important to continue to monitor the effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine over time.”

          • Mike Stevens

            “That doesn’t state 98% efficacy after 10 years as you claim.”

            It does. I cited 2 studies to back up my claim of 98% vaccine efficacy.
            This is what the first one concluded:
            “The estimated vaccine efficacy for the 10-year observation period was 94.4% for one injection and 98.3% for two injections (P < 0.001). Measurable serum antibody persisted for 9 years in all subjects."
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14872179

            The second said >98% efficacy after 2.5 years.
            Give it time….

          • Leslie

            Estimate = guess not proof

      • Dr Kitty

        Why is why the UK has implemented universal Zoster vaccination for the over 70s, with current cohorts of 70, and 79 year olds being vaccinated with an eventual plan of universal vaccination at age 70.

        Once this has bedded down, and the majority of the elderly population is vaccinated against shingles, with the majority of the population aged 20-70 having immunity to chicken pox from childhood, I fully expect the Varicella vaccine for children to be introduced on cost effectiveness grounds.

        https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/547250/Shingles_table_GP_poster.pdf

        • Leslie

          When did the UK start enforcing compulsory vaccinations of all its citizens?

  • Who?

    Well cia will be delighted with this strengthening.

    Four children, and two others all in the last week. Let’s hope they are all okay.

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/sixth-person-diagnosed-with-meningococcal-20170106-gtnbw2.html

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I hope so, but it’s highly unlikely. Meningiococcal meningitis is highly fatal.

      • Who?

        All crossed for them. There has been no further news, which I’m hoping is good news.

  • moto_librarian

    I’m just going to say this. Anyone who comes here claiming that their child is very healthy who then states that said “healthy” child has had whooping cough, H1N1, other strains of flu, bronchitis, and the chicken pox is both a liar and a bad parent.

    • ciaparker2

      After training her immune system by going through many contagious illnesses over many years, she’s very healthy now. She hasn’t had any illness in the last two years. She’s sixteen now. That’s the purpose of the formerly universal childhood diseases, to train the Th-1 cellular immune system.

      • shay simmons
        • Mike Stevens

          Cia doesn’t care about children dying of diseases in Africa, Shay. She told us so before. Hell, she doesn’t even care about kids dying in the USA… “450 deaths a year from measles is no big deal”, and “I couldn’t care about deaths from pertussis” were the phrases, according to memory.

          • shay simmons

            She was ok with a pertussis mortality rate of 1 out of 200 cases.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s in the youngest newborns in the first three months of life, in whom the disease is uncommon. They could be saved if they were treated with vitamin C when the disease occurred.

          • Who?

            Pesky dead babies messing with your belief system!

          • shay simmons

            Except that there is no body of evidence supporting the use of intravenous vitamin C for pertussis.

          • Heidi

            Question: if vitamin C and other homeopathic crap worked, then why, oh, why doesn’t evil big pharma lobby to make it an actual drug? Surely if they worked, as big and greedy as they supposedly are, they could make it where one has to have a prescription for vitamin C or essential oils or whatever else and be rolling in profit!

          • Dr Kitty

            No, they can be saved if their mothers get a pertussis booster in pregnancy, so that is now the recommended course of action.

          • FallsAngel

            I also recall, in one of her many screeds about measles, that cia said she could “live with ” 450 deaths from measles annually in the US. What a freaking ghoul!

          • ciaparker2

            Freaking ghouls who could care less about the one in forty American children now diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

          • Chris Preston

            Freaking ghouls who could care less about the one in forty American children now diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

            Autism is not caused by vaccines.

            I don’t understand why you feel so compelled to display your ignorance of medical issues all over the internet. Surely once or twice would be enough.

          • ciaparker2

            It is caused by vaccines. It seems that denying the obvious once or twice would have been enough.

          • Polak
          • Chris Preston

            It is caused by vaccines.

            You are completely wrong. There is simply no evidence from well constructed studies that there is any link between vaccines and autism.

            This study from Taylor et al. 2014 is a meta analysis of 5 cohort studies including 3198 subjects reported as having ASD among 1.25 million subjects and 5 case control studies including a further 2459 subjects with ASD. It found no correlation between vaccines and ASD. This meta analysis demonstrates that the probability of vaccines causing ASD is minuscule, otherwise the correlation would have been detected. Indeed with a study of this size we can with 95% confidence state that the proportion of children with ASD where vaccines could have been responsible must be less than 1 in 1800. For all practical purposes, the scientific research demonstrates that vaccines do not cause autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s caused by organic food, cia.

          • momofone

            Don’t be silly. It’s caused by breastfeeding.

          • FallsAngel

            So THAT’S what’s wrong with my kids! J/K

          • ciaparker2

            Your supposition explains a lot about you.

          • Mike Stevens

            But there is evidence… A clear correlation exists, and the link has biological plausibility.
            You prove it is not organic food, would you?
            Have big organic farma done safety studies to prove it doesn’t cause autism? Any controlled trials, or long term studies?

          • BIG WHOLEFOODS, worth $20 billion dollars. But they are not doing it for the money…… They are doing it so the sheeple eat healthy.

          • Roadstergal

            Where’s the randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial showing that it isn’t, cia?

          • Who?

            Exactly.

            Cia should put up or shut up.

          • Mike Stevens
          • ciaparker2

            What would I do without your humor to leaven my day? I’m off for a root canal on icy roads, so I could use it.

          • Heidi

            What?! Mainstream dentistry?! Did you try oil pulling and grass-fed butter first?

          • Azuran

            A root canal huh? What you trust Big Dental? Did you know your dentist gets paid for doing this? And you trust him?
            I hope you won’t take any analgesia, after all, they inject you with chemicals that can have side effect. It affects your nerves, and nerves to straight to your brain, it’s going to cause you brain damage
            Also, dental fillings are made with chemicals!!!!!! That they put directly in you mouth, so that you are constantly eating chemicals!!! And if you bite your tongue, it’s going to go straight in your bloodstream!!!

          • Heidi

            Real dentistry for her because it HURTS, but if her daughter has a cavity, she is Cia’s homeopathic guinea pig.

          • moto_librarian

            I hope you didn’t have novocaine or gas!

          • Acleron

            Homeopathic Novocaine, obviously. She’d better ask for the Hg content of the metal in the drills, the few parts per trillion will obviously necessitate extra chelation.

          • sabelmouse

            that site IS funny, or maybe ridiculous is the right word.

          • sabelmouse

            don’t it just?!

          • Azuran

            There is no evidence that it is.
            You are the one ignoring the mountain of evidence that vaccines do no cause autism

          • Roadstergal

            And yet, unvaccinated autistic children are running around out there.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Interestingly, that plot is done so to emphasize the correlation, but I can tell you, the similarity is even more dramatic if you make the right hand scale (the autism cases) max out at more like 32600. If you do that, the curves basically lay right on top of each other (there is a little separation at 2007)

            It looks like this. You can barely even tell there are two different curves there

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9416e3cc438f52313693c24402141e3e7200da725d942191a52c9321dd5c0b8b.jpg

          • Nice chart. However I’m willing to bet my house that ciaparker will not understand that correlation and causation are two COMPLETELY different things.

          • Polak

            And your proof?

          • Polak
          • FallsAngel

            You know that’s a lie, bee!

          • Nick Sanders

            None of the children diagnosed with autism have been diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

          • Who?

            Children with autism are, by definition, alive. Even if your nonsense were true, there would be more children alive than dead. Since infection is deadlier than injection.

          • moto_librarian

            So would you rather that your child be dead or autistic?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So would you rather that your child be dead or autistic?

            But that’s not even the question. Since vaccines don’t cause autism, you don’t have that trade off.

          • moto_librarian

            Oh, I know that. But given that we are unable to convince her that they don’t, I just want to hear her say that a dead child is better than an autistic child. That removes all doubt that she is indeed a terrible person.

          • FallsAngel

            I hear what you’re saying. The problem is, it’s a false comparison. It just plays into those AVs hands to say that. Then they get into some sort of a huff about making them choose between death and autism.

          • Heidi

            She is indeed a horrible person. She uses all her spare time to rail against her daughter’s autism, instead of accepting and loving her daughter for who she is. I can’t imagine my own parents deciding something was a “flaw” in me and spending all their waking hours angry about it. I can’t imagine doing that to my own son. Her daughter doesn’t deserve to be treated and regarded so poorly.

          • Azuran

            we care about both VPD and autism.
            Thing is, we know that autism isn’t caused by VPD. Scientists are not ignoring people with autism, there is lots of research on autism going on.
            You, and anti-vaxxers like you, with your constant nagging about vaccines, are actually slowing down that research and causing huge wastes of money on making more and more studies proving it’s not caused by vaccines.
            So really, if you cared about those 1/40 kids, you’d stop trying to slow down research on autism.

          • Polak

            Sorry Cia

          • Mike Stevens

            I know autism is caused by homeopathy.
            So stop promoting it.

          • Polak

            You have been given many links by many posters which state that VACCINATION does NOT cause AUTISM. The question is,have you EVER bothered to go to any of those links and read them? And if not,is it because you are afraid to be shown up as WRONG.

          • maidmarian555

            Just twelve days ago you posted:

            “Well, I disagree. All humans are called to live compassionately, showing concern and love for their fellow human beings as well as all other sentient beings, in thought, word, and deed. Only saints can do so perfectly, most of us must try to balance what we owe to others and what we owe to ourselves and our families. But those unable to understand the feelings of others, and don’t care about this spiritual blindness in themselves, are handicapped. And no, I don’t think they are as good as those who feel and demonstrate compassion selflessly and responsibly. You may call my standards arbitrary, but they are not. They are not endlessly flexible and not everyone lives up to them. It’s like saying that someone paralyzed and in a wheelchair is as good an athlete as an Olympic champion. Obviously not true. Someone who is unable to understand or care about the feelings of others is simply not as good a human being as someone who does.”

            You made this statement in reference to people on the spectrum. So let us not pretend that you’re some sort of saint who is here arguing your point to “defend” those with autism selflessly. You’ve made some of the most unpleasant statements I’ve ever had the misfortune to read about people on the spectrum. You don’t get to call other people ‘ghouls’ when you openly express sentiments like those I’ve quoted above.

          • Jack Sprat

            I almost replied Cia. Caught myself.

          • Maybe she is Mother Teresa, reborn? As Mother Teresa didn’t care about kids getting HIV either. (evidenced by her continual rejection of contraceptives)

      • FallsAngel

        Explain the Th-1 system in your own words.

        • Mike Stevens

          All she knows is the phrase “original antigenic sin”. They aren’t her own words either.

          • ciaparker2

            Of course they aren’t my own words. Was it Dr. James Cherry who first introduced the concept of original antigenic sin? The pertussis germ produces a toxin called ACT, but production is only started once the infection is underway. The old DPT had some ACT in it, but the DTaP doesn’t have any of it. The absence of ACT in the vaccine means that giving the vaccine programs a permanently deficient response to the pertussis germs onto the hard drive of the immune system. It does not and cannot include any instructions on how to deal with ACT, and without such instructions, the immune system is unable to deal effectively with the real deal. Permanently unable. Meaning that even after going through the natural disease, as millions do even if they get a pertussis vaccine every week, they can’t produce the permanent immunity they would have had they never gotten the pertussis vaccine. It is thought that a similar process also occurs with measles and the measles vaccine, but I haven’t read any details on that.

          • FallsAngel

            Snort, snort!

          • ciaparker2

            New information for you , was it?
            http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/hilarys-desk/whooping_cough_and_chameleons

            ACT is
            Adenylate cyclase toxin. Once a whooping cough bacteria
            has landed up attached to cells in the bronchi, a gene switches on which
            produce this toxin which acts like a forcefield. This toxin stops the immmune
            system from recognising the bacteria straight away and gives the bacteria about
            a two week advantage until the immune system wakes up to the fact it’s been
            duped. This is one of the crucial “antigens”. In natural immunity the body
            reacts very strongly to ACT, and produces very high levels of immunity to it.
            The next time a person meets whooping cough, the body very quickly throws the
            kitchen sink and the whole house at the whooping cough bacteria, and clears it
            rapidly from the system.

            (Addition December 2013: In
            May this year, for the first time, ACT during infection and in vitro
            manufacture was cultured, and Eby 13 is the first real
            study on ACT, even though they have known it’s crucial role
            for some time).

            Original Antigenic
            Sin. When a person gets an infectious disease for the
            first time, the body responds to WHAT it sees, WHERE it sees it. The body forms
            immunity on the basis of THAT experience. The immune system assumes that the
            next time that same thing comes around, it will come again, in the same form
            and place. HOWEVER, if a person’s immunity to a vaccine creates different
            pathways from natural immunity, that causes a problem. The body still sees “the
            thing” but the different immunity doesn’t work against the thing in the same
            way as it should.

            In the case of natural whooping cough immunity, ACT or adenylate cyclase toxin,
            forms the basis of the initial immune response, and that front line immune
            response is crucial for removing the bacteria on reinfection. No vaccine
            can have ACT in it, because it’s made in the body, as part of the disease
            process and it seems vaccine manufacturers were not able to the whooping
            cough bacteria to excrete ACT in the vaccine substrates, because most articles
            which test recipients of the whole cell vaccine, find only low ACT
            antibodies. And the newer acellular whooping cough vaccine doesn’t have
            ACT in it at all. The immunity created from an acellular vaccine misses
            this step out, and immunity from the old whole cell vaccine showed levels of
            ACT antibodies which were much much lower than that triggered by a natural
            infection.

            (Addition December 2013
            addition. Original antigenic sin has been confirmed by a recent study in
            2013, by Warfel. So when a vaccinated person
            contracts pertussis again, the bacteria can get a good hold, because there is
            no front line ACT defence, to stop the bacteria from attaching, and starting an
            infection. After a vaccine in which there is no ACT, the immune system
            will NOT respond to ACT in the future, because the programme has been set by
            the first contact which was the needle, not the bacteria. And here is the proof
            in Table 1:

            After the disease, and
            convalescence, on re-exposure, there was no carriage and therefore no
            spread. During infection baboons spread whooping cough for 30 days.
            After “immunity” from acellular vaccine, pertussis was spread for 35
            days, and after “immunity” from whole cell vaccine, pertussis was
            spread for 19 days.

            So the vaccinated are much more
            of a danger to babies and the general public, because while the vaccine may (or
            may not) prevent serious symptoms, because the person thinks nothing much is
            wrong, they will continue going to school, work, or whatever while infecting
            all those around them. That doesn’t happen with immunity from the
            disease. Natural immunity does NOT result in spreading on subsequent
            contact with the bacteria.

            Which is probably the reason why
            in Sweden, up until 2000, clinical infections were primarily been in the 3 – 11
            age group, whereas now, infection ages are starting to spread outside of those
            age ranges. /end Dec 13 addition)

            An
            “epitope”
            is part of the antigen.
            Imagine the whooping cough bacteria is like a jig saw puzzle. Imagine an outside
            envelope, genes , toxins and other stuff. Each different bit, is a “linked
            epitope”, and all the epitopes which are “linked”, are the bits which put
            together make up an antigen.

            So the expression “Linked
            epitope suppression” is actually a very devious way of
            describing original
            antigenic sin. Worse, “linked epitope suppression”
            has been reframed to give it a slightly different meaning as well. What
            they are saying is that because the vaccine presents different epitopes to the
            disease, it gives a different immunity. They say this
            means that the usual immune system patterns essential to natural immunity
            – are suppressed, because the body responds to the antigens which
            were in the vaccine, and not the real ones presented in the bacteria.
            “Suppression” though, infers that the vaccine “suppresses” the proper
            immune response – but this isn’t true. The proper immune response can’t happen,
            because the initial programming was all wrong in the first place. It
            isn’t suppressed. It just… doesn’t happen.

            And unfortunately, unlike a computer, you can’t reboot, or reinstall immune
            system programming to correct the glitch. Once the programming is set by the
            vaccine, that’s how the programming stays from that point on, and that’s why it
            is and should be called…. “original
            antigenic sin”.

            Original antigenic
            sin, is a very graphic term and it’s no wonder it’s been
            removed from their vocabulary, because it implies a man-made problem.

            Now that you have these terms, perhaps you can follow the rest of the blog. PT stands for pertussis toxin.
            (You can look up the other abbreviations yourself if you have the need)

            The first mention of “original antigenic sin” was in a paper written in 2004 by James Cherry
            for whom pertussis vaccine has been his life long baby

          • FallsAngel

            Good Grief, cia, what’s gotten into you? You sure are being nasty tonight.

          • kilda

            erm, this makes exactly zero sense:

            “ACT is Adenylate cyclase toxin. Once a whooping cough bacteria has landed up attached to cells in the bronchi, a gene switches on which produce this toxin which acts like a forcefield. This toxin stops the immmune system from recognising the bacteria straight away”

            and later

            “In natural immunity the body
            reacts very strongly to ACT, and produces very high levels of immunity to it.”

            so does ACT dupe the body into not recognizing the invader, or does it produce a very strong immune reaction? You kind of have to pick one of those things.

          • ciaparker2

            It takes about two weeks during which ACT uses its strategy to evade detection of the pertussis pathogen before the immune system realizes what is happening and then mounts resistance to it. In the meantime, the cilia in the airways have been broken off by the toxin, making it much harder to cough up the mucus in the lungs, causing the prolonged severe coughing fits to expel it, and the many weeks first of coughing, then of fighting the germs, and finally recovery with permanent immunity if no pertussis vaccine had been previously received which permanently programmed a response which didn’t include ACT.

            Go read what Dr. James Cherry has written about it.

          • FallsAngel

            This James Cherry?
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long
            “In contrast to diphtheria and tetanus, there is considerable
            misunderstanding about pertussis epidemiology and disease manifestations
            in adolescents and adults as well as which pertussis
            antibodies and their serum levels relate to protection. . . . Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis
            cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization
            is relatively short-lived. This is not so; in fact,
            IgG serum antibody titers to B. pertussis antigens in adults who were previously vaccinated are higher than in adults who were primed by disease.. . . Finally, infection and illness occur in persons of all ages and immunity after infection or immunization
            is relatively short-lived, making the ultimate control of pertussis difficult.”

            Plus much, much more! I do suggest you read primary sources rather than woo-meisters’ interpretations of same.

          • Mike Stevens

            Worth repeating… James Cherry:
            “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Hoisted by her own petard….again….

          • Piece2016

            The Pertussis Vaccination gave my child Pertussis. It sheds. Many people are walking around “Shedding” the diseases due to the Vaccinations which causes them to spread. 99% of the MMR outbreaks are people already Vaccinated with the MMR Vaccine. It doesn’t work, but it does cause Autism. Your not much smarter than a Baboon. You are an ugly, ignorant Registered Nurse now aren’t you??

          • Nick Sanders
          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Really? How was it diagnosed? Wait, don’t tell me; you diagnosed it yourself.

          • Piece2016

            MD made that statement to me. Another one of my children had seizures from the MMR per the ER MD it was the MMR Vaccination. After that I told my PCP no more Vaccines at our next unnecessary well child check. He locked the patient room door, threatened he would have my child taken away, call the state on me, and with one hand grabbed my child and in his other hand was a Vaccine he Forced into my child and made my child very sick. Good thing I had Lipo. Vit. C and black charcoal!! That abuser assaulted my child and he should have gone to Jail!!! Take your Vaccine ideology and shove it, you know where!!!!

            Vaccines caused me injury as well.

            But, on another note I am really good at diagnoses.. I knew I had Lyme disease for years told over 30 MD’s asking for help and testing over a 9 year period. Most of them were Harvard IDIOTS!! I also told them a Surgeon left something in me from a previous necessary surgery for 4 YEARS and I was right.. Again, IDIOTS just like you!! Conventional Medicine is the “kiss of death”..

            Get this Harvard Women…. I use all natural medicine that has cured and healed my body and supported and improved my IMMUNE System… Do you know what that is? Amazing what all natural “Chinese Medicine” can do. Colloidal Silver, Oregano Oil, Lipo. Vit. C etc saved my life. You conventional medicine doctors are evil patient predators that has lead to the 2nd leading cause of death in America aka Harvard Idiots ERRORS.

            So your a Harvard MD who can’t hold an MD job and blogs for a living. Get real.. You elites think you control people and you do the most harm. Shut up and learn something…

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You expect me to believe that nonsense?

          • Piece2016

            Of course not. You haven’t practiced Medicine in years… You don’t have a clue what’s really going on. You’re a stay at home mom who blogs for a living pretending to be an MD. I on the other hand have worked in the Medical Field for over 20 years. I see what’s going on. I see the physician practices contracts too… I see their push for productivity by keeping people sick… Unnecessary Surgeries to fill the O.R. The 40k bonuses for fully vaccinating 100 kids and boy don’t those doctors want that money…. I see an increase in patients dying from Candidas Disseminated… Is that not sad….. They jack these kids and patients up on Antibiotics and never tell them they need to take a Probiotic. They, themselves take Probiotics, but won’t even take a few minutes to teach it to their patients and instead watch them die of Candidas Disseminated. Most MD’s don’t Vaccinate their own children. The list goes on and on and on. I see Vaccinations not being stored correctly at PCP’s offices before. I see Surgeons botching surgeries on multiple young patients, OB Surgeons and nothing done to stop it. They don’t care about Vaccine injury either.. It just makes more patients for them. Bottom Line: Vaccines Cause Injury. We should all be looking at what we can do to change that. I bet your husband is an MD. You like those Vaccine 40k incentives for Vacations…. No worries, no big deal that you most likely ruined some kids life by giving him Autism. You are a prime example of MD’s ignorance.

          • momofone

            *You’re. It’s you’re. If you’re going to go on and on about how ignorant people are, at least use the correct word.

          • momofone

            No, she actually is an MD. You’re the one pretending to be one: “But, on another note I am really good at diagnoses.”

          • momofone

            So it took you nine years to find someone who would finally say what you wanted to hear.

          • Piece2016

            No it took 9 years for them to finally test me for Lyme which was positive. Idiots…

          • momofone

            So do “normal balanced” people come in throwing around threats to doxx people? Because that seems completely ABnormal and IMbalanced to me.

            Also, I’m not in the medical field, but I’m flattered you would think so.

          • momofone

            Gosh, Piece, it seems like part of your original comment has disappeared. Surely you didn’t delete it?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Lyme doesn’t work like that; its not malaria

          • MaineJen

            Okay, this is clearly a poe

          • Nick Sanders

            He locked the patient room door, threatened he would have my child taken away, call the state on me, and with one hand grabbed my child and in his other hand was a Vaccine he Forced into my child and made my child very sick.

            https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder888/400x/55770888.jpg

          • Chris Preston

            The Pertussis Vaccination gave my child Pertussis. It sheds.

            You are a complete and utter ignoramus. The pertussis vaccine is acellular. Go and look that word up. It means without cells. There is absolutely no way outside of the ravings of complete fantasists that the pertussis vaccine could give a child pertussis.

          • Mike Stevens

            I dunno… I think maybe he has sheds on the brain seeing as how he likely lives in one.

          • shay simmons

            She’s smart enough to know that the pertussis vaccine can’t shed because it’s acellular, that most outbreak victims are unvaccinated, and that the MMR doesn’t cause autism…which makes her smarter than you are.

          • Mike Stevens

            This is what James cherry said:
            “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia’s “own words” include a lot of talk about “force fields” and “hard drives”.
            Perhaps she has a children’s science encyclopaedia to hand, or some book on the science of Star Wars?

            Cia, can you explain why pertussis infections were asymptomatic in baboons who were vaccinated?

          • FallsAngel

            We’ll clearly these are not cia’s own words. It doesn’t sound like her prose and the formatting is a bit screwy.

          • Mike Stevens

            She is channeling Hilary Butler.

          • FallsAngel

            Ahh! I don’t believe I know who Hilary Butler is! I’ll have to look her up.

          • Mike Stevens

            She is the “beyond conformity” link she gave somewhere.
            A rabid antivaxer from New Zealand.

          • FallsAngel

            And “they” say all the kooks live in the US!

          • Piece2016

            Ohh look it’s Mike Stevens… How ya doing???

          • FallsAngel

            I don’t think you know any more about computers than immunology.

          • Piece2016

            Your correct ciaparker2… All these ugly ignorant people throwing around insults are in bed together. They are a team that trolls and pushes propaganda… They don’t want truth coming out. One is a very, very ugly Registered Nurse aka FallsAngel. Her bed buddy is Reality022, Mike Stevens and a few others here.

            FYI: Ugly Trolls mentioned above = Keep it up and I will expose your names with your comments “Publicly”…..

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, Piece, I appreciate your efforts to bring the truth to light!

          • Roadstergal

            Put up or shut up, cia. Organic food sales and exclusive breastfeeding rates both correlate very well with the rise in autism diagnoses, so show us your own ‘gold standard’ research proving those aren’t the cause.

          • Piece2016

            You are welcome. I enjoyed reading your information. I have Lyme and what your saying is accurate.

          • Jack Sprat

            Truth? The truth is I have sat with mothers that would lay their lives down to have their children vaccinated. Truth is vaccines have an armed perimeter as they are valued commodities, we never had protection for ourselves. Truth is vaccine preventable diseases are in the top 5 cause of childhood mortality globally.

          • ciaparker2

            Globally means millions of malnourished children in the Third World. Their parents must try to make the best choice under the circumstances, which may or may not mean accepting any or all of the vaccines on offer for them.
            Children in the First World are at close to zero risk of dying from any VPD, with or without vaccines. And we must make the best decision for our children under our circumstances. As a group, completely unvaxxed children are much healthier than vaxxed ones, although on an individual basis that may not always be the case.
            Any mothers who would lay their lives down to have their children vaccinated are not in possession of all of the facts, which are readily available online and in many books.

          • MaineJen

            …so it’s not just a nasty rumor. You really *don’t* care about kids in other countries.

            Not only ignorant, but racist.

          • Nick Sanders

            As a group, completely unvaxxed children are much healthier than vaxxed ones

            No, they aren’t.

            http://www.biotech-now.org/health/2017/01/new-study-highlights-tremendous-social-value-of-childhood-vaccination

          • Who?

            Really all boils down to what you mean by ‘facts’ doesn’t it, Humpty?

            A person who has never heard of PANDA, but then rushes off and googles it, decides her child probably has it, then proceeds to advise people on this site about how to deal with it, might not be the best person to be reciting the value of facts.

            And I can’t even go into the whole strep throat (I think we call it tonsilitis) scarlet fever circus.

            I guess if you can’t muster some compassion for that poor child of yours it’s ridiculous to expect you have any to spare for those actually less fortunate.

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Who?

            Sure, sure.

            I can see it would be embarrassing for you to have your positions summarised in such a brief yet accurate format.

            Anyone who thinks making a child ill, deliberately, then refuses care for that child, is mentally unwell.

            How did that dentist visit go? Did you take the pain relief?

          • Nick Sanders

            Seems like your time is worth so much, you wouldn’t spend so much of it writing paragraph after paragraph of bullshit, over and over, then only suddenly decide that it wasn’t worth your time when you get called on the complete and utter indefensibility of your nonsense.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Children in the First World are at close to zero risk of dying from any VPD, with or without vaccines.”
            Only since vaccines were introduced, Cia. Before that, in the USA alone, over 10,000 kids died each year from the infections which subsequently have been prevented by vaccinating.
            You want us to return to that era. You are sick in the head.

          • ciaparker2

            Measles was not a threat in the First World in the twenty years or so before the vaccine. Everyone got it, including you and me. No one worried about it. Pertussis was not a threat in the First World either by mid-twentieth century. In Sweden, even though they didn’t give the vaccine from 1989-1997, and vaccine writer Arthur Allen says that 60% of Swedish children in those years got pertussis, there was an average of less than one death a year from it.
            I want to return to the era before autism and rampant autoimmune disease. In the ’60s there were millions of happy, healthy, bright, polite children everywhere. Nearly all of us got measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox, and no one had ever heard of autism. 30 students per class, and all of us could speak, reason, remember, read, and write. No aides or paras in any classroom. Now there are autistic kids everywhere, paras in every classroom, and our society has no idea at all how it’s going to support them. As you said yourself, only 10% ever have a full-time job.

          • Who?

            I went to school in the sixties, with a bunch of kids who spent most of their time on the verandah outside the classroom, or in the principal’s office, because of their bad and disruptive behaviour. Mostly boys. They could have done better with some of the help you describe.

            The rate of full time work is going down for everyone, due to the effects of globalisation and mechanisation. There are plenty of university graduates ,with professional degrees, who can’t get work.

            You want to return to something that never existed.

          • kilda

            the autistic kids back in the 60s were largely diagnosed with mental retardation, because autism was not well known at the time and was greatly underdiagnosed. And they weren’t in your classroom because back then kids with any kind of special needs were in separate classes, and often separate schools.

            Prior to 1975 children with special needs did not even have a right to free public education under federal law, and many of them didn’t get to go to school.

            the autistic and otherwise disabled kids still existed then, you idiot. It’s just that the concept of putting them in regular classrooms with aides to help them was not a thing yet.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Hell, my MIL got a lot of flack in the early 80s from older family members for sending Dem to regular school rather than blindy school. Kids (and adults) who had any number of things were hidden away until quite recently

          • ciaparker2

            Well, idiot, look at the statistics of this study by North Dakota scientists in 1987 who looked at the educational and medical records of every single last child in North Dakota and found an autism rate of three in 10,000. Your narrative was crafted by vaccine companies to try to keep suspicion away from vaccines for as long as possible. Idiot.

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html

            A Prevalence Study of Pervasive Developmental Disorders in North Dakota
            Article in Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 26(5):700-3 • October 1987

            To determine prevalence rates for the pervasive developmental disorders (PDD) in North Dakota, all relevant health and service providers were asked to provide names and records of all patients who had autistic symptoms. All identified patients were seen by the authors for a comprehensive evaluation. Of North Dakota’s 180,986 children, ages 2 through 18, 21 met DSM-III criteria for infantile autism (IA), two met criteria for childhood onset pervasive developmental disorder (COPDD), and 36 were diagnosed as having atypical pervasive developmental disorder (APDD) because they met behavioral criteria for COPDD before age 30 months but never met criteria for IA. The prevalence rates were estimated at 1.16 per 10,000 for IA, 0.11 per 10,000 for COPDD, and 1.99 per 10,000 for APDD. The combined rate for all PDD was 3.26 per 10,000 with a male to female ratio of 2.7 to 1. Results are discussed in relation to previous prevalence studies using other diagnostic criteria.

          • Azuran

            My mom has a 55 years old autistic cousin. Of course, back when they were kids, she was ‘retarded’ and had ‘mental problems’. She was only diagnosed with autism around 15 years ago.
            Oh, pertussis was not a treat? Two babies died of it last year close to where I live.
            Yea, the 30 students in my class in high school could speak. But half of the 30 student in the special need class couldn’t. Yea, we had one of those.

          • Acleron

            Vaccines cause impoliteness in kids? You are unhinged.

          • shay simmons

            “I want to return to the era …”

            When children died, were maimed, or spent weeks in bed due to diseases we can now prevent. Well, that makes you a pretty $hitty person, parker.

          • ciaparker2

            And when children spend their lives screaming in agony from the pain of their autistic enterocolitis, when they are trapped in silence and loneliness because the language center of their brain was destroyed by vaccine encephalitis and they can neither understand nor produce language, when they spend hours lining things up or pounding on doors, trapped in a brain damaged by vaccines, unable ever to converse with a friend, read a book, think about God and the nature of life, travel the world thinking about their place in it, work in a fulfilling job serving other human beings or the natural world, enslaved by an immune system screwed up by vaccines and torturing them with autoimmune disease, they have you to thank for their parents not having had the information they needed to make an informed vaccine decision. And they made the wrong one. Thank you, Shay, for maiming and destroying the lives of not only the millions of autistic children towering up into a tsunami which will not be deniable much longer, but those of their immediate and extended families.

          • shay simmons

            There’s a slight problem with your melodrama, parker — you can’t prove that a) there is an autistic “tsunami,” or b) that it was caused by vaccines.

            You are a liar, a sadist, and a fool.

          • ciaparker2

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html
            Bear in mind that the autism rate has gone up just since he wrote this update, and is now at one in forty kids in the US. Just read yesterday figures on how the autism explosion in Scotland is beginning to melt down social services, as it will soon do everywhere. I don’t know what’s going to happen when the taxpayer realizes that it’s going to be a question of either quadrupling his taxes or letting the autistic starve or get run over on the streets.
            As for being caused by vaccines, read the book The Age of Autism, the anthology Vaccine Epidemic, Evidence of Harm, When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hep-B Vaccine and Autism, and Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? Or dozens more, but these are among the best. There is no doubt.

          • shay simmons

            This is what your “among the best” Buttram says is really vaccine encephalitis.

            “The autopsy revealed bleeding around the brain, in the eyes and in the spinal column. There were bruises on the sides of his head. Another thing that the autopsy showed was four broken ribs. These fractures had started to heal, and therefore indicated a pattern of physical abuse prior to the date of death. The father admitted to holding the baby by his feet and hitting him shortly before he died.”

            You are even more loathsome than I thought, parker.

            https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-antivaccine-lie-that-just-wont-die-shaken-baby-syndrome-is-really-due-to-vaccine-injury/

          • Nick Sanders

            So many problems that don’t exist…

          • shay simmons

            The era before autism? Go read up on King George VI’s brother, Prince John.

          • ciaparker2

            Prince John had epilepsy. He was able to speak coherently and express himself. He did not have classical Kanner’s autism, which is what we mean when we talk about children having autism. The first cases of autism were caused by the smallpox vaccine: a number of children who were developing normally got it, lost their language, and started doing crazy things like picking up hot coals with their bare hands. We know this from the records of Bedlam Asylum, where many of them were taken.

            After that, the first cases of Kanner’s autism were in Kanner’s time, the ’30s and ’40s, when he described children who had reacted to the mercury-containing diphtheria shot with symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism. Some reacted to the mercury-containing fungicides which their fathers were developing for the first time. Later, many children would get autism as a result of vaccine encephalitis, which can be caused by any vaccine.

          • Empliau

            In Heaven’s name, stop dropping Kanner’s name as if it meant you understood the history of autism. He hired people who had been working with Asperger in Vienna and changed the definition of autism – blaming so-called refrigerator mothers for their children’s difference – instead of the wide continuum of difference Asperger saw. Asperger was publishing on, and treating children with, autism years before Kanner “discovered” it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Complete garbage, yet again Cia.
            Do you have a book of Antivaccine Faerie Tales as your source?

          • shay simmons

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_John_of_the_United_Kingdom

            Citations needed for every single one of your statements.

            Kanner didnt invent autism; he simply gave it a more accurate diagnosis.

            And not only did the smallpox vaccine in the days of Bedlam not contain mercury, the symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are quite different.

            There is so much else that’s laughably untrue about your post (autism went away, simply vanished, until Kanner showed up? Only the children of men working with fungicides were autistic.?).

            Why do antivaxxers always lie? And not only lie, but tell such whoppers?

          • ciaparker2

            Obviously the smallpox vaccine had no mercury. When it caused autism, it was because it had caused vaccine encephalitis, which is the most common cause of autism now.
            Dr. Kanner said in 1943 that autism was so strange, with such distinctive symptoms, that if it had existed anywhere before, someone would have recorded it, but no one ever had. He was unaware of the dead files at Bedlam Asylum, later uncovered by the authors of Age of Autism. But Dr. Kanner diagnosed the first cohort of autistic children, all born in the 1930s, mercury having been put in the diphtheria vaccine in 1932.
            Other than a few children damaged by vaccine encephalitis from the smallpox vaccine in the early nineteenth century, there was no autism until mercury in vaccines in the ’30s.

          • corblimeybot

            Haaaaaa hhhaaaaa haaa, there is just no hope for someone who displays this level of idiocy with every word they say.

          • shay simmons

            Citations needed for all of these claims.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sigh….more lies and disinformation from Cia.

            I have told you several times before, Cia…. When Kanner gave a presentation to the annual conference of the National Society for Autistic Children at their first conference in 1969, he said:
            “I never discovered autism. It was there before.”

            Why do you persist in lying that he felt it was a quite new phenomenon?

            Vaccines do not cause autism. If they did you would be able to point us to a substantial body of verified research that confirms the association and the causation. That you have never done.

            PS: Please read “Neurotribes”. It is an objective account of the history of autism, and has won many literary awards.

          • Nick Sanders

            Funny how so many vastly different things apparently all cause the same symptoms. It’s almost as if it’s being pulled out of someone’s ass.

          • ciaparker2

            It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism. It would be interesting to differentiate how the types of autism caused may be different. For instance, mercury poisoning can cause hand and arm flapping, a well-known symptom of autism. I was very sad and it contributed to ending my denial of my daughter’s autism when I saw her run at the playground flapping her hands in the air as she ran. What I am not sure of is whether vaccine encephalitis in the absence of mercury could also cause hand and arm flapping. Obviously both cause a certain type of brain damage which we call autism. But it is possible that some symptoms are only found with mercury poisoning, others maybe only with vaccine encephalitis in itself. Future scientists will study this and we’ll find out (once the current situation controlled by the pharma industry ends).
            Mercury is mercury. It can cause autism. Victims of mercury disasters from fish and grain contaminated with mercury have shown these same symptoms. Dr. Kanner’s first cohort of autistic children displayed similar symptoms whether their poisoning was from diphtheria vaccine mercury or from fungicide mercury.
            However, symptoms like shyness, social awkwardness, or strange behavior, even seizure disorders like epilepsy, are not enough on their own to establish a diagnosis of autism. You have to establish a pattern of severe abnormality in language development or use, in social interactions, and in repetitive, nonfunctional behaviors (stims and obsessions), a certain number of them, on which to base a diagnosis of autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism.

            Nope.

            For instance, mercury poisoning can cause hand and arm flapping,

            Wrong twice over. Firstly, mercury doesn’t cause that. Secondly, similar symptoms wouldn’t mean it caused autism even if it did. For comparison, about a million different things cause a fever, but that doesn’t mean they all cause the flu, which has fever as well known symptom.

            http://vaccine.fyi/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/mercury-poisoning-autism-they-are-nothing-alike-comparison-of-diagnostic-signs.jpg

            What I am not sure of is whether vaccine encephalitis in the absence of mercury could also cause hand and arm flapping.

            “Vaccine encephalitis” isn’t an actual thing, so there’s nothing it can or can’t cause.

            Obviously both cause a certain type of brain damage which we call autism.

            Again, wrong twice over: Autism is not “a type of brain damage”. And neither mercury nor imaginary encephalitis cause it.

            Future scientists will study this and we’ll find out (once the current situation controlled by the pharma industry ends).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZl-kQ3JFNI

            Victims of mercury disasters from fish and grain contaminated with mercury have shown these same symptoms.

            No, they showed symptoms very different from autism.

            Dr. Kanner’s first cohort of autistic children displayed similar symptoms whether their poisoning was from diphtheria vaccine mercury or from fungicide mercury.

            They weren’t poisoned.

          • Mike Stevens

            “It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism.”

            Recognised by whom, Cia?
            You? Your phalanx of antivax cronies?

            When you show that this is a genuine medical problem, by citing some valid peer-reviewed science on the subject, then you might have something to go on. Til then, stop spamming the lies all over the internet.

          • Jack Sprat

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4f16becc50471aece34a44ae54bc70649cbd432a48c4e49b0dcca486cb00215a.gif

            Yup, tons of malnourished in the Third World. Was not aware the US was classified as Third World yet; but give it time.

            Piss off with your sanctimony.

          • ciaparker2

            Your point being? Drs. Greenfield and Ditchek, who published Whole Child, Healthy Child in 2001, wrote that pediatric flu deaths were uncommon: that flu was very rarely dangerous to healthy children, and they didn’t recommend that healthy children get the flu vaccine. It wasn’t that NO deaths occurred, but they weren’t common. These doctors said that injury from the vaccine was more common than injury from flu for this group; Dr. Ditchek said he had seen a case of Guillain-Barré paralysis caused by it.

            Every parent must make the decision for his or her own family. It’s possible that even a healthy child might conceivably die of flu; also possible that he will be killed by the flu vaccine, as Kaylynne Matten was. Piss off with your vast, pharma-sponsored scorn for those damaged or killed by vaccines. We are very real.

          • Jack Sprat

            First; Kaylynne Matten, cause of death undetermined. If you know something the Vermont medical examiner does not, you should give them a call.

            Second; over a year ago I asked you what science, or evidence could convince you to reconsider your position on vaccines. You replied, if you recall, none. Science, like life, is a learning adventure. Being proven incorrect (or just wrong) is an invitation to learn something knew. This excites scientists and students of life alike.

            With your response I knew two additional things about you; you are not half as smart as you think, and you need our pity more than our scornful words. I really do feel badly for you.

          • jen

            “What science could convince you to reconsider your position on vaccines?” you ask.
            How about the science that shows the rates of autism, seizure disorder, SIDS, and autoimmune disease in unvaccinated population. i am tired of hearing how all those disorders are temporally related to vaccines and would have happened anyway. Such BS and totally not backed up by science.

          • Jack Sprat

            A novel, yet not intellectually sound dichotomy.

          • jen

            novel.? This argument is the foundation of anti vax position that the safety studies are flawed. How would you research cancer incidence as a result of smoking if everyone smoked? It would be very easy to say that some people get cancer because of their genetics.

          • Nick Sanders

            How would you research cancer incidence as a result of smoking if everyone smoked?

            By comparing the cancer rates in those that smoked more to the rates in those that smoked less.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dose–response_relationship

          • Jack Sprat

            Jen, sorry for the delay, something about having a life gets in the way.
            Current safety studies, to the best of my knowledge, are not flawed. If you have some information that is contrary please send it along. What knowledge science has provided confirms vaccines are safe and there is no causative relationship between vaccines and autism. Can we at least concur on that?

          • Nick Sanders

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342

            There’s SIDS. I can link to info about some of the others later, but it’s a bit more extensive, and I need time to do it properly. Time which I don’t have at the moment.

          • jen

            Unfortunately this study does not give statistical data on the SIDS rate in unvaccinated infants. You assume that the SIDS rate is the same in vaxxed and unvaxxed, but your assumption is not backed by science.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, I assume the SIDS rate is half in vaxxed, compared to unvaxxed, based on the study. Why on earth would I assume it was the same?

          • jen

            This paper analyzes case studies and their temporal relationship to vaccination. How can case studies show statistical information of the incidence of SIDS in unvaccinated populations? I think this is pretty basic science. I wouldnt try and prove epidemiology or incidence to you by using case studies of vaccine injuries.

          • jen

            No, these studies compare SIDS rates percentages per year to vaccine uptake percentages per year. Non of the studies in this metaanalysis look at unvaccinated rates of SIDS. These studies remind me of that book, Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

          • Azuran

            It said the SIDS rate in vaccinated infants is half the rate of those unvaccinated. Do you even read?

          • jen

            This study is comparing temporal relationships. It does not say that the children were not vaccinated.

          • Azuran

            And have you provided a study showing that SIDS rate is higher in vaccinated children?

          • jen

            Yes I have read these studies. The conclusions are based on years when vaccination uptake was reduced compared to the SIDS rate of that year. The authors use the 1980’s to 1990 and 1990 to 2007 as comparisons. The problem I have with these studies is that in 1991 there are 2 other variables that influence SIDS vs vaccine uptake. In 1992, the back to sleep program started. Also two other changes occured that same year. The DTap was intoduced to replace the DTP and the diagnosis of SIDS was modified to include new diagnostic codes. Codes added were, SUID, sudden unexplained infant death, and accidental suffocation. Naturally, adding new codes are going to reduce SIDS diagnosis.

          • Azuran

            And again, do YOU have any proof that SIDS is more common in vaccinated babies?
            Because everywhere I look, it always either conclude that there is no link or that vaccination appear to lower the risks.

          • jen

            Its not my job to conduct studies for someone else’s product.The bully’s that harass me to get these injections need to prove safety. Otherwise, I will not participate. Basic, common sense science should not be to much to ask for.

          • Azuran

            Except that you don’t have a shred of evidence to even justify your fear of SIDS.
            So, basically, you are saying that until we have a double placebo study comparing the rates of every single existing diseases between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, you will never consider vaccine safe.
            And you want us to believe this is actually an open conversation about vaccine safety?

          • shay simmons

            Its not my job to conduct studies for someone else’s product

            It’s called burden of proof. You make a claim, you provide the corroboration.

          • Azuran

            How about YOU back up your claim by science?
            We have actually backed up our claims a lot. (you just don’t want to bother reading them)

          • Mike Stevens

            His point is crystal clear, Cia.
            Paediatric flu deaths are uncommon, but not vanishingly rare as you would have us believe, and Jack provided you with the hard evidence confirming this fact.

            Quoting what a couple of quack doctors said in their book 15 years ago about flu is not a rational counter to the evidence presented.

            You are the one dismissing over a hundred child deaths from flu every year as “no big deal”. You are a heartless, inhumane, callous individual.

            “Piss off with your vast, pharma-sponsored scorn for those damaged or killed by vaccines. We are very real.”
            Nobody has expressed scorn for anyone damaged by a vaccine. Anyone in that situation has my full sympathy.
            However, don’t be at all surprised if people are scornful when you blatantly lie and blame vaccines for every ill known to mankind, or when you invent fantasy scenarios blaming vaccination for the autism your daughter has because she suffers a genetic Neurexin-1 gene deletion and also had prenatal brain oxygen starvation (as you have told us)

          • Nick Sanders

            Star Trek was meant to be a message of acceptance, peace, and hope. “Patterning [your] life” after it doesn’t mean one is schizophrenic, it means one try to be inclusive and uplifting, ffs.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            We aren’t trolls. I’ve never been to your antivax sites. *You* came *here* to bother us.

          • Mike Stevens

            Please, expose mine would you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Mine to. Go on, do it.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, mine too.

          • Piece2016

            Your nose bleeding yet from all the drugs you snort???

          • Acleron

            I see the intellectual arm of the antivaxxers has arrived.

          • Mike Stevens

            You don’t get permanent immunity after natural pertussis infection, Cia.
            I must have proven that to you like 30 times now?

          • That’s the coin slot slug detector in action. She doesn’t like it, so she’s incapable of remembering or processing it.

        • ciaparker2

          The immune system has two branches. The baby is born with the Th-2 system predominating, the major weapon of which is antibodies, and which makes the development of autoimmune reactions more likely. The Th-1 system is the cellular immune system, and its major weapon is the white blood cells. The task of the baby’s first year is to develop an immune system favoring the Th-1 cellular immune responses. Exposure to the childhood diseases favors the optimal development toward favoring the Th-1 system. Vaccines skew development to favor the Th-2 system.

          • FallsAngel

            Snort!

          • Piece2016

            You snorting drugs now FallsAngel? You have got to be the sickest freak ever. Your a drugged out Registered Nurse. oh my, my…. So you and Reality022 are bed buddies who no nothing… Your a wonna be Nurse that no one likes. An ugly, ugly person….. Good thing we don’t work at the same Hospital, you would be gone!! Fired…

          • Who?

            Tell it to Jack Spratt.

            You should be ashamed.

          • MaineJen

            NOPE

          • Roadstergal

            “The immune system has two branches.”

            It has way more than that, no matter how you slice it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Any knowledge she had of biology stopped at 9th grade.

          • Mike Stevens

            To give you your due, Cia, you have acquired some knowledge about pertussis and the
            vaccine, and you may have some areas of knowledge that exceeds what some doctors have. But your snippets of information and your “facts” are distorted by being viewed through your biased antivaccine magnifying lens. You seem to have cherry-picked bits of information and misinterpreted them, or selectively favoured them, despite there being fuller information available elsewhere which you have not seen, or that you have deliberately ignored because of your extreme “confirmation bias”.

            It is as if you have been asked to complete a jigsaw of a well known person, and because you think that he must be an evil dictator, you specifically search for pieces
            that come from a moustache, and conclude that the person must be Stalin or Hitler (when the completed jigsaw actually reveals a picture of Ned Flanders).

            Regarding pertussis and the vaccine, one useful source of more recent information I have used has been the supplement on Pertussis in the Journal of Infectious Diseases in 2014. The link to the journal with full text articles is here, I hope you take the time to read it because I know you are intelligent enough to understand much of it, despite not having a medical background. I hope you don’t just scan it for “quote mining” purposes when you catch sight of something that you think you can use to push an antivaccine POV.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/209/suppl_1.toc

            The other useful article I refer you to is a review on T cell responses to Bordetella pertussis infection and vaccination, from 2015. The full text article is here:
            http://femspd.oxfordjournals.org/content/femspd/73/7/ftv051.full.pdf

            Perhaps I can use these comprehensive sources to disabuse you of some of your notions.

            1. The immune response to natural pertussis infection is cleared is not durable
            or “permanent”
            , and many papers exist to demonstrate this. Reinfection often happens despite primary natural wild-type pertussis infection occuring.

            Estimates of natural immunity vary between 4-20 years (although I know you like to quote the single paper that supports your contention it is more than 30 years – Wearing & Rohani). I favour real-world demonstrations of how durable immunity is, rather than a mathematical modelling exercise. Citations include Wendelboe 2005, Hallander 2011, Acosta 2015, Wirsing von Konig 1995, Miller 1997, Versteeg 2002.

            James Cherry, who you have frequently quoted as an expert in pertussis (when it suits
            you) also stated: “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

            2. The initial response to infection is via both cell mediated and humoral arms of
            the immune system. Regarding T cell responses. adaptive Th1 responses tend to predominate, as you say. In fact, not just a Th1 response, but a Th17 response occurs. Vaccines induce varied responses, with wP predominantly inducing Th1 and Th17, and aP inducing a mixed Th1/Th2 and Th17 response. I agree that the wP vaccine mimics natural infection more closely, which may be one reason it tends to be more effective (though not more durable than the aP vaccine in terms of preventing primary infection). The aP vaccine adaptive T cell response is shifted more to the Th2 end of the spectrum, but Th1 response still occurs. Here I refer you to Gustaffson 1996, as I know you like Swedish studies.

            3. What is extremely relevant is that T cell responses after aP vaccine can be boosted by natural exposure, and shift to a robust Th1 profile. You seem to disbelieve this, since you say that once aP vaccine has been given, there is “original antigenic sin” and future encounters with pertussis will not induce protective immunity. You are wrong.
            Evidence for this comes from several sources, including Zepp1996, Ryan 1998,
            Edwards 2014, Ausiello 1997, He 1998.

            4. It is clear that duration of immunity depends in some part to whether people get natural boosters from exposure to circulating pertussis. This is an important point, and not really touched upon. In communities with a fair bit of pertussis, there will be natural boosting of aP vaccine induced protective immunity, with a switch to Th1 profiles. What will happen if there is very little circulating pertussis is that the duration of aP induced immunity will drop off, and that aP boosters may not restore a fully protective immune profile in the vaccinee. I agree better vaccines are needed (but aP is as good as we currently have, and because it is not perfect, that is not a reason to throw it out of the window.

            5. Various strategies are being examined as to how to improve vaccine induced
            immunity. These evolve, as evidence is accrued. Vaccinating pregnant women seems effective in averting infant pertussis, but we don’t know if it restricts the immune response in the infants once they start their own vaccine shots from 2 months. Timing is crucial. Altering the schedule might be needed.

            Using aP monocomponent vaccine as a booster has merits – not everyone needs
            the DT part of the vaccine – but then there is still the issue of predominant Th2 responses.

            Giving one dose of wP vaccine has been considered. Reintroduction of this would
            be bound to send many antivaxers screaming “blue murder”, but you will see the logic for this, and since most cases of “vaccine encephalopathy” were due to Dravet’s syndrome, and not the vaccine, it may be considered to be of more benefit than harm.

            You are aware of the trials of live attenuated vaccine such as BPZE1, which are encouraging, and we shall have to watch this space. It seems very effective and very durable in animal models, and phase 1 human trials have been completed.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067348/

            Protein conjugated vaccines are another avenue of research.
            http://www.pnas.org/content/111/9/3213.full

            You mention Adenylate cyclase toxin. It is possible that the addition of new antigenic components to the current vaccines may induce a more complete protective response. There have been discussions about adding an inactive form of ACT to the vaccine – this has been discussed by the 64 member expert panel convened in Bethseda, Maryland in 2013 (see ref in the JID source).

            You seem to think vaccines that induce responses to ACT cannot be used – you are wrong. This was first shown back in 1990, and is the subject of current research:
            http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/32/3/medmicro-32-3-173.pdf?expires=1483661672&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=1C1955CDDEE4161A0EC645D9EE6F6390
            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264501983_Adenylate_cyclase_toxin-hemolysin_relevance_for_pertussis_vaccines
            http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/15474718/Adjuvanticity-of-native-and-detoxified-adenylate-cyclase-toxin-of-Bordetella-pertussis-towards-co-ad
            http://iai.asm.org/content/74/12/6797

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, I think cia probably has more knowledge about pertussis and its vaccine than SOME proctologists, urologists, nephrologists like Suzi Humphries, maybe some neurologists. I don’t know about you, Mike, but when I was in nursing school in the late 60s/early 70s, we didn’t spend a lot of time on CDs. Then again, pediatrics, where the bulk of CDs are, was my last clinical and I couldn’t wait to be done and outta there. Plus, there was no big anti-vax movement in Pittsburgh at that time. I learned most of my stuff when I worked in public health/peds.

          • Mike Stevens

            Indeed. She still knows less than medically trained and experienced people about most medical issues. Her vast ignorance about treatment, clinical aspects of the diseases and her approach and attitude to diagnosis, therapy, risk assessments etc is legendary.
            In her case, a little knowledge about some vaccines is a dangerous thing.

          • shay simmons

            I’m almost positive you’ve given her all of this information before…good luck.

          • Mike Stevens

            She is quite ineducable, really.
            Cognitive dissonance and Dunning Kruger… A powerful combination.

      • Jack Sprat

        Cia, you know my line of work, and where I do it. I am beginning to mist up as I type this because since we last communicated several months ago, I have attended the mass incinerations of approx 1600 child corpses. The number one non-HIV related culprit is influenza (tied with pneumonia.)

        You and your arrogant self righteousness are the problem, you … I do not have the words for it, you. When we first exchanged I was cordial and patient; always trying to glean from you what I could.

        Hold an infant as they gasp their last breath. Hold two, comfort 12 that die in the same day. Have no words to express to their mothers as the line approaching our gate exceeds 2 miles. Watch the small cooking fires lining the path punctuate the night sky. Awake to the wails of the mothers realizing their child passed in the night.

        I go collect the corpses before the heat of day.

        I am sick of you Cia. Sick to death. Vaccines save lives. There is no discussion.

      • Azuran

        Oh 16, so yea, we got a full picture of her health through her life. It’s not like she has another 60 years or so of life ahead of her to get other illnesses.

        And you think your kid is healthy because she had all those disease? I’ve got like 1/10th the number of disease your kid had, and I’m 10 years older. How you explain that?

      • kilda

        gee, that’s so kind of all those viruses, to exist just to train our immune system. And here I thought their purpose was to reproduce themselves. Guess I forgot we humans are the center of the universe.

      • N

        My big one is 9 and he was not ill for two years either. Before that, a lot of colds, ear infections, scarlet fever – treated with antibiotics (!!!) hand-mouth-foot, stomach flues, vaccines,… Now he is perfectly healthy.
        Oh, but he needs braces for his teeth, and probably glasses not long from now.

        • momofone

          If you’d just let that scarlet fever take care of itself, he probably wouldn’t need braces or glasses!

          • N

            Yes that’s what I thought too. But than again, my little one is just 2 now, had not yet scarlet fever and probably needs glasses. Would that be a vaccine injury than? I mean, there is always a “logical” explanation for everything. It can’t be genetic after all.

          • momofone

            Definitely a vaccine injury…unless he was born by c-section?

          • N

            Damnit, I knew it was the C-section!

          • N

            Can I still save him from those mean glasses with Vit C? Hey, Vit C to cure damages done by C-section. That is completely “logical”!

          • momofone

            It’s always the C-section!

          • Gæst

            If your eyeballs aren’t squeezed *just so* during passage through the birth canal, they will obviously be malformed and require glasses!

          • N

            Yes, the squeezing, and something with bacteria in the vagina. The eyes surely need those too, to develop a strong immune… I mean seeing-system.

          • Roadstergal

            Fun fact, the eyes are an immune-privileged site… keep bacteria outta there!

      • And after the Black Knight’s training he was the bestest swordsman in all of Camelot. Here’s his training in progress. As you can see, by the end of training he is quite accomplished.
        So, this is how it’s done, eh chia?
        What could possibly be wrong with this ciaparker2 approved method of training?

        youtube(dot)com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4#t=1m46s
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4#t=1m46s

        • shay simmons

          I have two German Shepherds that I train (obedience & therapy). I keep wondering if parker uses a choke chain or a martingale on her daughter’s immune system.

      • Roadstergal

        I go for well over two years between illnesses; I get a common cold every three to five years during the cold season, and that’s it. And I was fully vaccinated. Hell, I’m old enough that I didn’t get the MMR – I got separate M, M, and R. I had a bigger antigenic load, more shots, and less sophisticated vaccines than kids have today.

        I call victory for my shitty anecdote over your shitty anecdote, because 16 is pretty damn young to call lifetime health. :p And I got all of that without having to go through any then-VPDs! My youth was full of playing outside, not stuck inside with ‘many contagious illnesses.’ That’s a pretty shitty thing to do to a kid.

        It’s kinda funny how you use phrases like ‘train the immune system’ which are more apropos to vaccination. “Here, boy! See this? Smell this? If you see this or smell this in the future, attack it!”

        • shay simmons

          For some reason I imagine the immune system’s reaction would be similar. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c16a9932f7d15972cfc4d79c7f417d609b9d2200a0f4db26b6dd3ab9a3bfc30.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            Did Zogby and Van bequeath you their photo memes before they were compelled to leave?

          • shay simmons

            That’s my cat, Parker. He is as trainable as any immune system.

        • ciaparker2

          Vaccines damage and confuse the immune system. They trick the immune system into making the desired antibodies, but in the process cause a lot of dangerous and unwanted processes.

          • Nick Sanders

            Citations or it didn’t happen.

          • Who?

            Aah so antibodies are created, according to cia.

          • Roadstergal

            You can repeat it all you want, baby doll; it doesn’t make it true.

            Still waiting on those ‘gold standard’ studies showing that breastfeeding and organic food consumption don’t cause autism. The correlation is way better than for any component of vaccines, and while there are plenty of unvaccinated autistic children, I am unaware of any autistic children who consumed no breastmilk or organic produce.

      • NinjaMama

        So, what you’re actually saying is that despite your neglecting to ensure that she received basic preventative health through childhood, your teenage daughter is healthy. Thank your lucky stars. Let’s hope it stays that way, or that she doesn’t kill someone else’s child in the process.

        • ciaparker2

          No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that uninformed people, encouraged in their ignorance by the medical industry which profits so greatly by the ideology, think that sickness, any sickness, is bad and must be avoided at all costs if at all possible. That all symptoms of any disease must be suppressed at all costs. And that’s the way to raise fragile children with weak immune systems, or at least half of these children, victims of the reigning paradigm, will develop neurological disease (autism, seizure disorders, etc.) and/or autoimmune disease (asthma, allergies, diabetes, bowel disease, etc.).

          The more intelligent way to raise children is to breastfeed them until self-weaning for its thousands of benefits, to give them healthy, preferably organic, food so their nutritional status is good, and to avoid vaccines, antibiotics, and drugs whenever possible. Sometimes common sense dictates accepting these measures, which is some cases can be lifesaving. But at this time they are all way overused, and it has led to our current health debacle.

          This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by practice. It does not mean deliberately exposing your child to Ebola or diphtheria. Newborns should be sheltered at home and parents must be very conscious of the need to protect them from germs. As they grow, their immune systems develop and should be gradually allowed to encounter contagious diseases in their everyday life. The formerly universal childhood diseases furnished ideal opportunities for the formation of the child’s immune system: measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox were very beneficial diseases for healthy children to get during childhood. Other diseases like pertussis, flu, rotavirus, and hep-A are also beneficial for children to go through. Meningitis germs are in most people most of the time, and they achieve permanent immunity to them by adulthood. Breastfed children are protected from the strains of meningitis their mothers have been exposed to, through placental immunity and breastfeeding. Children who are not breastfed, especially if they are in daycare, are at higher risk of contracting meningitis, which, in its clinical form, is always a very serious disease and conventional medical treatment (antibiotics) must be sough immediately if symptoms of meningitis present. The parents of these children should research the meningitis vaccines and decide if the risk of the vaccines (considerable) is worth it to prevent the risk of meningitis (not inconsiderable). And by using the words considerable and not considerable, I’m not suggesting that I think the obvious answer is to refuse the vaccines in the case of children at risk. The fewer vaccines the better, but I think if a child were only to get the DT series after the age of two and the Hib series, maybe Prevnar, after the age of four months, he would be at low risk of dangerous reactions. But not no risk.

          My daughter has benefited from my allowing her to get and go through the natural diseases I mentioned.Your comment is just typical of the prevailing meme promoting the production of weak and damaged children.

          • Who?

            Total fantasy.

            Quick question-is all the homeopathy, chelation etc free? If no, is it sold to you by the same people who presrbe it? If it is, how is that appropriate?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            organic is merely a marketting term. Salt can never be organic and all kale and twinkies are.

          • MaineJen

            There is clearly no getting through to you. You’re still repeating the same talking points, no matter how much evidence to the contrary you’re presented with.

            Just know that you are 100% wrong. We know it, and I think deep down, you know it, too. You’re too far down the rabbit hole to admit it.

          • JGC

            I’d say diseases that have a demonstrable ability to kill you or result in serious and often permanent adverse consequences following recovery (you know, things like influenza, measles, pertussis, hep C, etc.) are by definition bad.
            Avoid at all costs? Perhaps not. Avoid at reasonable or no cost, for example by implementing public health vaccination programs which protect both those vaccinated and those who for medical reasons are not viable candidates for infection via herd immunity? Hell yes.

          • nick quinlan
          • JGC

            Are you saying that becoming infected with a fatal disease is a good thing, nick?

          • Nick Sanders

            So, who’s paying you to post here?

          • Roadstergal

            “The more intelligent way to raise children is to breastfeed them until self-weaning for its thousands of benefits”

            Like food allergies. And I’m sure that a kid who is wholly uninterested in the breast before 6 months-1 year is ‘self-weaned’ and not just on a ‘nursing strike’ and is to be starved until it’s willing to suck on only boob juice, yes?

            “to give them healthy, preferably organic, food ”

            I’m a big fan of carbon, myself, but some rather nice flavorings are inorganic.

            “This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by practice.”

            Exactly! So, tell me. If your kid wants to learn to walk on a tightrope, do you string one over the Grand Canyon to start, or do you string one 2 inches above the ground in the back yard? If your kid wants to learn to ride a bicycle, do you start her on a strider, or do you clip her into a velodrome bike with no freewheel and push her off on a track? Giving her vaccines is PRACTICE FOR HER IMMUNE SYSTEM. Safe practice. Effective, reliable practice.

            Hey, I ride motorcycles. Come on, I’ll put on you on a race-prepped GSXR1000 and put you in a race in the open class. It’s the best way to start!

            “The formerly universal childhood diseases furnished ideal opportunities for the formation of the child’s immune system”

            Ideal opportunities for kids to be permanently disabled and/or die, and for a lucky few to get some degree of immunity (not lifelong, for the most part).

            “Breastfed children are protected from the strains of meningitis their mothers have been exposed to, through placental immunity and breastfeeding”

            Placental immunity provides transient protection by passing systemic Ig (mostly IgG flavors) to the baby. They get that transient protection no matter how the baby is fed, because placental transfer happens when the baby is attached to the placenta and the placenta is attached to the mom, when the kid is in utero and isn’t being fed anything – I’d have thought that was obvious from the name, but apparently your density approaches neutron star territory. Breastfeeding provides no systemic immunity, because whatever random IgAs make it into mom’s breastmilk aren’t systemic, VPD-preventing antibodies. Placental immunity lasts only a few antibody half-lives – hence the vaccine schedule.

            “I think the obvious answer is to refuse the vaccines”
            Because you are a dumbfuck who is a shining star of Dunning-Kruger.

          • Gæst

            What’s funny is you thinking that you’re intelligent because you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet.

          • FallsAngel

            “This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop
            strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by
            practice.”

            You simply do not understand how the immune system works, or what it’s for. If your child has miraculously never been exposed to anything (an impossibility, but let’s go with it for a minute) and one day gets exposed to smallpox, s/he will mount the same immune response as if s/he had had 500 serious infectious diseases. The immune system knows how to work! It doesn’t have to be “trained”.

            You have some nutty idea that if your child has survived measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, diphtheria and pertussis (for example) s/he will survive smallpox when exposed.

          • Polak
          • ciaparker2

            I read your link. This was the very worst that it said about measles:

            “The measles virus is highly contagious and is spread through the air by someone who is unwell with the disease,” Dr Tobin said.”

            Yes, it is very contagious. That’s why 99% of children before the vaccine GOT natural measles. Nearly EVERYONE got it, including me. Everyone born before 1958 is PRESUMED to have had natural measles. But no one back then worried about it. You got it, got a high fever and rash, spent several days in bed, and then the vast, vast majority got well and went back to school. And got the many benefits of measles: permanent immunity, a stronger cellular immune system, developmental strides, the ability to protect future infants in their most vulnerable first year through placental immunity and breastfeeding, and protection from many diseases, including cancers, in later life.
            Being very CONTAGIOUS in no way makes it a malignant disease. It just means it’s easy to catch if someone near you had it.

          • Who?

            I don’t think it was the case that no one worried about it, but they realised they couldn’t do anything to stop it happening.

            There is no ‘permanent immunity’, particularly now people are living so long. My parents, in their 80s, have just had boosters for a number of illnesses they both had in the 1940’s-why? Because they don’t want to get them again. They both had whooping cough, and are appalled by the thought of having it again.

            Breastfeeding does not provide immunity. Having a mother who is immune does, to some extent.

            And of course being very contagious is not what makes it serious, it is the miserable and potentially dangerous, even potentially fatal, illness itself that is the problem. Extremely contagious plus horrible illness is a bad combination, easily avoided by vaccination.

          • Mike Stevens

            …The many benefits of measles?
            Death, SSPE, encephalitis, tracheobronchitis, cancrum oris, pneumonia, otitis media, gastroenteritis, deafness, blindness, immune suppression for 3 years after infection, etc?
            Take a hike, Cia.

          • ciaparker2

            A few children had these complications, but the vast, vast majority did not. Now let’s look at the possible adverse reactions to the MMR, from the package insert:

            Body as a Whole Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability. Cardiovascular System Vasculitis. Digestive System Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea. Endocrine System Diabetes mellitus. Hemic and Lymphatic System Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy; leukocytosisImmune System Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history. Musculoskeletal System Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia. Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of infection with wild-type rubella and vary in frequency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in adult females and least in prepubertal children. This type of involvement as well as myalgia and paresthesia, have also been reported following administration of MERUVAX II. Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild-type rubella infection and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic joint symptoms. Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities. Nervous System Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see CONTRAINDICATIONS);subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS); acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transverse myelitis; febrile convulsions; afebrile convulsions or seizures; ataxia; polyneuritis; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia.

          • Nick Sanders
          • sdsures

            Oh noes! I’m on doctor-monitored aspirin 900mg for my severe migraines. (Spent last night in the ER when they and my triptan failed to work. The doctors were very good to me and gave me IV fluids, antiemetics and painkillers when it was clear I couldn’t swallow anything. Pretty wiped out today. History of hydrocephalus along with the migraines means we do not screw around with a non-responsive severe migraine in case it is shunt-related.)

          • FallsAngel

            Hoisted on your own petard again, cia!
            “Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild-type rubella infection
            and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated
            from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic
            joint symptoms. Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints
            are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates
            for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in
            children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions
            tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a
            matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls,
            the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen
            in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these
            reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal
            activities”

            So the vaccine ONLY RARELY causes the symptom of arthritis caused by the disease. Indeed, everything you listed with the POSSIBLE exception of transverse myelitis can also happen with the diseases, and happens with greater frequency and severity!

          • ciaparker2

            So between one in four and one in eight women who get the rubella vaccine get chronic arthritis from it. Well, who cares about them?

            The Rubella Vaccine and Arthritis:

            Cooper, L.Z., et al. “Transient arthritis after rubella vaccination.” Am J Dis Child 1969; 118:218-225.

            Spruance, S.L., et al. “Joint complications associated with derivatives of HPV-77 rubella virus vaccine.” American Journal of Diseases in Children 1971; 122:105-111.

            Swartz, T.A., et al. “Clinical manifestations, according to age, among females given HPV-77 duck rubella vaccine.” American Journal of Epidemiology 1971; 94:246-51.

            Weibel, R.E., et al. “Influence of age on clinical response to HPV-77 duck rubella vaccine.” J. of American Medical Association 1972; 222:805-807.

            Thompson, G.R., et al. “Intermittent arthritis following rubella vaccination: a three year follow-up.” American Journal of Diseases of Children 1973; 125:526-530.

            Chantler, J.K., et al. “Persistent rubella infection and rubella-associated arthritis.” Lancet (June 12, 1982):1323-1325.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Prolonged arthritis, viraemia, hypogamma-globulinaemia, and failed seroconversion following rubella immunisation.” Lancet 1984; 1:1475-1476.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Postpartum rubella immunization: association with development of prolonged arthritis, neurological sequelae, and chronic rubella viremia.” Journal of Infectious Diseases 1985; 152:606-612.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Rubella-associated arthritis. Comparative study of joint manifestations associated with natural rubella infection and RA 27/3 rubella immunisation.” Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 1986; 45:110-114.

            Institute of Medicine. Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines. (Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1991).

            Benjamin, C.M., et al. “Joint and limb symptoms in children after immunisation with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.” British Medical Journal 1992; 304:1075-78.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, dipstick cia, and 7 in ten women get arthritis from rubella DISEASE! Who cares about them? Not you! You think whatever happens from disease is just fine!

            Now which is more, 7 in 10, 1 in 4, or 1 in 8? Let’s do this in percents. 70% get arthritis from rubella DISEASE. 12.5% to 25% get arthritis from rubella VACCINE. This is tough, think. Show me your work. Hint: Using the worst figure for the arthritis from the vaccine vs from disease, about three times as many adult women get arthritis from the DISEASE!

            “Arthralgia and arthritis occur so frequently in adults that they are
            considered by many to be an integral part of the illness rather than a
            complication. . . . Arthralgia or arthritis may occur in up to 70% of adult women who contract rubella, but it is rare in children and adult males.”
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/rubella.html

          • Mike Stevens

            And I’d say that a few children had these complications after vaccination, but the vast, vast, vast majority did not.

            So, right back at you.

            But let’s contrast the relative frequency of complications post MMR to those experienced in a country like the UK or USA with measles.

            If one million kids are given vaccine (MMR):
            1000 will have a febrile convulsion.
            30 will get thrombocytopenia.
            10 will get a severe allergic reaction.
            1 will get encephalitis (ADEM)
            None will get autism/SIDS/epilepsy/whatever.

            If one million kids get measles (in Europe or USA, in the 21st century):
            200 will die.
            100,000 – 200,000 will be ill enough to need hospitalisation.
            90,000 will get otitis media.
            80,000 will get gastroenteritis.
            50,000 will get primary viral or secondary bacterial pneumonia.
            5000 will have a febrile convulsion.
            1000 will get thrombocytopenia.
            1500 will get encephalitis (ADEM or SSPE), 100 -150 of whom will die and 300 of whom will have residual brain damage.
            1000 will get various other problems such as hepatitis, myocarditis, or miscarriage if caught in pregnancy.

          • Who?

            This is very interesting, but I’m pretty sure not worth cia’s time.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            30 vs 1000 getting thrombocytopenia. Yeah, it really sucks to be those 30 but i’d guess they’d have gotten it from either virus or vaccine.

          • ciaparker2

            And as for measles causing immune suppression for three years, once again I’ll point out again the Peter Aaby study which showed that natural measles infection greatly IMPROVED survival in the subsequent four years:

            It has been assumed that
            measles infection may be associated with persistent immune suppression and
            long-term excess mortality. However, few community studies of mortality after
            measles infection have been carried out. We examined long-term mortality for measles
            cases, sub-clinical measles cases, and uninfected contacts after an epidemic in
            rural Senegal.

            Exposed children developing
            clinical measles had lower age-adjusted mortality over the next 4 years than
            exposed children who did not develop clinical measles (P<0.05). Sub-clinical
            measles cases tended to have low mortality and compared with uninfected
            children, exposed children with clinical or sub-clinical measles had lower
            age-adjusted mortality (mortality ratio (MR)=0.20 (0.06-0.74)). Controlling for
            background factors had no impact of the estimates. When measles infection is
            mild, clinical measles has no long-term excess mortality and may be associated
            with better overall survival than no clinical measles infection.

            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11024418_Low_mortality_after_mild_measles_infection_compared_to_uninfected_children_in_rural_West_Africa

          • Nick Sanders

            As you are so fond of pointing out about the the dangers of illnesses, that’s in Subsaharan Africa.

            Also, you seem to ignore the parts where it says sub-clinical infections also decreased mortality, and were common in vaccinated children.

            That said, with an N of 184, this proves pretty much dick.

          • Mike Stevens

            I have debunked your misinterpretation of the Aaby study several times before, Cia.
            It doesn’t say what you claim it says.
            YOU ARE A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR

          • Nick Sanders

            Funny, because when I checked the link, the very worst it said was:

            “Serious and sometimes fatal complications include inflammation and pneumonia”

          • ciaparker2

            I just looked at it again, and did not see this sentence. It doesn’t matter. Yes, complications sometimes occur and sometimes they can be serious and even fatal. Complication like ear infections, diarrhea, and bronchitis are relatively common and can be treated as they usually are. Pneumonia can occur in one in twenty cases, but is usually viral and self-limiting. When it is bacterial, it can usually be treated with antibiotics. Fatal complications are extremely rare. In 1960 there were four million cases a year of measles in the US, with an average of 450 deaths, a very low mortality rate. Now look at the adverse reactions to the MMR, and let the parents make the decision as to which they’d rather risk.

          • Nick Sanders

            I just looked at it again, and did not see this sentence.

            It’s in the video at the top of the page.

            Complication like ear infections, diarrhea, and bronchitis are relatively common and can be treated as they usually are.

            Except that measles related ear infections have a significant chance of leaving the patient deaf, and diarrhea in the very young (the age group you are saying should be getting deliberately exposed to measles) often causes serious dehydration.

            Pneumonia can occur in one in twenty cases, but is usually viral and self-limiting.

            One in ten, and it’s the most common cause of measles related deaths.

            Fatal complications are extremely rare.

            About 1 to 4 in 1000, depending on on various factors. And given how many million children would get it each year with our population size, that’s a lot of dead kids. Plus, complications requiring hospitalization are at a rate of 1 in 4. Any parent that thinks a disease with that kind of chance of sending their kid to the ICU is “mild” is delusional.

            Plus, as said before, it can leave you deaf. And also blind, or with brain damage from encephalitis. So death isn’t the only consequence of note.

            In 1960 there were four million cases a year of measles in the US, with an average of 450 deaths

            450/4,000,000 = 0.0001125, or 112.5 in one million.

            Now look at the adverse reactions to the MMR,

            <1 in one million.

            and let the parents make the decision as to which they’d rather risk

            Anyone who picks the former after comparing is an enormous idiot.

          • Who?

            I’ve got money on a nwmt response, if you get any response at all.

          • FallsAngel

            ” It doesn’t matter.”

            No, of course not. You can “live with” death!

          • N

            Especially if death occures to other people. One can totally live with other peoples’ death.

          • momofone

            Cia certainly can. And it hasn’t happened to anyone she knows, so obviously it doesn’t happen.

          • Who?

            Weasel word of the day-‘usually’.

          • I’ve had pneumonia. It sucked. I was a healthy 15 year old, and I was in the hospital for 4 days and wound up with a permanent susceptibility to upper respiratory infections. If I get a cold, and I get one about every 2 years, I have to do some serious preemptive symptom control or I will get bronchitis, and then I will have to go to the doctor for breathing treatments and/or antibiotics to arrest incipient secondary infections. I will also have a hacking cough for at least two weeks.

            This is likely to continue for the rest of my life. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not a huge deal, but don’t you dare say that a 5% chance of pneumonia isn’t serious.

          • Polak

            So you would like to go back to the days before measles vaccination,the point of my update was to inform everybody that this is the fifth case in four weeks and who knows when it will end and if any deaths result from this BENIGN disease http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-history-in-america.aspx

        • Mike Stevens

          She is saying that, despite her sterling efforts to ensure her daughter gets ill (by deliberately infecting her with diseases, and by refusing her vaccinations)

          I wonder if Cia thinks it will benefit her daughter to acquire one of the oncogenes strains of HPV naturally.

          • Maybe she’ll be blessed with ‘natural immunity’ to cancer? :-/

        • FallsAngel

          cia would not care if her daughter killed another kid via VPD. The excuse will be “the mother did something wrong”.

          • MaineJen

            Started antibiotics too soon, most likely. Better to wait a few days, let the illness get really out of control, before starting treatment.

    • sabelmouse

      what utter nonsense!

      • moto_librarian

        No, it’s not. I’m sick of coddling parents who act like deliberately allowing their children to suffer VPDs that can and do kill are morally superior to those of us who vaccinate. Whooping cough and the chicken pox are miserable experiences that can and do kill people. You and cia deserve moral approbation and public shaming.

        • sabelmouse

          lifelong chronic illness is much worse.
          as is shingles.

          • Nick Sanders

            Which is why vaccines are so important. Pertussis can cause asthma and chickenpox is responsible for far, far more shingles than the vaccine.

          • sabelmouse

            trying stand up again?

          • Nick Sanders

            Stand up to your lies, yes.

          • sabelmouse

            getting slightly funny.

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t kid yourself; you’ve never been funny, just tiresome.

          • sabelmouse

            new level of comprehension issue that you have there.

          • Polak

            Comprehension?look who is talking.

          • Who?

            But hang on, cia and her daughter are both chronically ill, as far as her story goes. They are always off for some treatment or other that, despite being both time consuming and expensive, doesn’t cure either of them. And cia has had shingles, more than once from memory

            That family are hardly a model for the benefit of no vaccination, surely?

          • sabelmouse

            you seem to have missed a bit. they’re both vaccine injured.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, they aren’t.

          • sabelmouse

            and hilarious!

          • Dr Kitty

            You get shingles from chicken pox, but not from chicken pox vaccination.
            Even people who have had chicken pox can have shingles prevented by shingles vaccination.

            In no way does contracting chicken pox stop you from getting shingles, so I’m not sure what your point is.

          • sabelmouse

            oh dear.
            getting regular, natural booster through interacting with chickenpox infected children is what keeps the shingles away.
            therefore, the chickenpox vax created a shingles epidemic.

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove. It.

          • Azuran

            Then why did one of my uncle, who had CP, who had children who had CP and who had grandchildren who had CP STILL for shingles?

          • sabelmouse

            o f..k! i’m here again!

          • Azuran

            That’s not really an answer to the question. Why does everyone I know who has shingle are people who had CP? And generally old people, who had kids who also had CP before there was a vaccine. Therefore had ‘natural boosters’ according to your theory?

          • sabelmouse

            no, it’s an exclamation at having made the mistake again of replying to someone in that cozy little community of yours where several people quite clearly just wait for someone to pounce on but none of you are shills.

          • Azuran

            It’s a public internet blog. If you want to have a one on one conversation, go on skype or text them.
            You think that I would be able to go on an anti-vaxxer blog, make a comment to someone and expect that ONLY that person would talk back to me and that no one else would get involved? Get real.

          • Nick Sanders

            Says the person who is “not antivaccine” but spends her time going on and on about how dangerous vaccines are.

          • Acleron

            So you need a ready supply of suffering children.

          • Gæst

            Anti-vaxxers also need a supply of suffering children, otherwise they have no purpose to their existence. That’s why I dislike them so much: they depend on and glorify in human suffering.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I prefer to make children suffer via essay exams and broccoli for dinner

          • N

            What? Essay exams and broccoli for dinner? Are you kidding? You are so meeeeeaaaaaaan!

            (I make mine suffer by forcing them to do homework and stopping them at eating chocolate and cake only.)

          • FallsAngel

            Think about this sabel. You’re proposing that kids should get sick with chickenpox and its attendant risk of shingles, in order to prevent shingles in older people who already had chickenpox? First of all, there’s some doubt to this HYPOTHESIS, not theory, and secondly, if no one got chickenpox, no one would get shingles. Well, very few. The rate of shingles in people who’ve received the vaccine is way less than that of people who had chickenpox disease.

          • Nick Sanders

            Does varicella have a non-huma reservoir? If not, we could eventually eliminate the damn thing, then we wouldn’t even have to vaccinate for it, and there would be no shingles at all.

          • FallsAngel

            To answer your question, no.

          • Gæst

            Of course, you have to believe that vaccinations actually prevent diseases, and not say that better hygiene and spontaneously weakened viruses are what eliminate things like smallpox.

          • Mike Stevens

            Grandma:
            “I’d hate to get shingles. I refuse to get the vaccine to prevent it, and so I insist my grandkids become “natural boosters” and suffer chickenpox, despite the risks to them, and the possibility that I’d still get shingles anyway. I’m a really selfish old cow, aren’t I?”

            Works for Sabel, clearly.

          • ciaparker2

            The vaccine is only 50% effective at best, and close to not effective at all in those over 80. So Grandma is up a creek if she’d rather not get shingles. Does the vaccine lobby give a damn about Grandma? Just as much as they do about innocent children, meaning not at all.

          • ciaparker2

            100 people a year die of shingles in the UK, far more die of it here. So you’re advocating a sacrificial practice, killing hundreds of adults every year (very few of whom would have gotten shingles before the vaccine), in order to feel justified in making everyone get the vaccine and then boosters for life, to prevent a mild, beneficial disease.

          • FallsAngel

            You know, cia, you have driven me over the edge. Your post is bullshyte! There, I said it!

            Post a citation for the deaths! Also post a cite for this blather “ery few of whom would have gotten shingles before the vaccine”. You did see Mike’s post that shingles cases are increasing in the UK where they don’t vaccinate for chickenpox?

            Also a cite for this hogwash about lifelong boosters. If you say “bent” you’ll be exposing yourself for the fraud you are.

          • ciaparker2

            It’s in H. Bedford, D. Elliman, Childhood Immunisation: The Fact, Health Promotion, England, 2001.
            Read what I cited. Or google it for yourself. Everyone recognizes that shingles used to be rare, but dozens of studies have established that the varicella vaccine is behind the huge increase in shingles cases. Look at the many studies I cited.
            How many foolish parents in the UK get the varicella vaccine from private doctors?

          • FallsAngel

            You’re such a lying liar, cia! I put your reference in my browser, I got an abstract and an “opportunity” to pay $10.00 to get the article. Anyway, here’s the abstract: “As vaccine-preventable diseases become less common, concerns about
            possible adverse effects of vaccines take on greater prominence. Often
            it is assumed that because an event has been noted to follow
            vaccination, it is due to the vaccine. This may lead to a ‘vaccine
            scare’ followed by a reduction in uptake and resurgence of disease. Yet
            when the situation is examined properly, it is usually found that there
            is no causal connection between the vaccine and the adverse event. In
            this article, we describe how vaccine safety is assured and some of the
            scares that have arisen in the past.”

            So it doesn’t look like it says anything of the kind.

            And LOL, google it for myself. You have no evidence. You’re in the basket of deplorables!

          • Mike Stevens

            Lifetime risks for shingles in the UK is 25%, Cia.

            Does that sound rare to you?

            Please reply to my question.

          • FallsAngel

            No, you’re lying again. In the US, about 96 people die of shingles annually. The population of the UK is about 1/5 that of the US. If the rate is the same there as here, that means about 20 people.

            Again, citation for “boosters for life”.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Also if I remember the King study correctly (which was one of the earlier studies to suggest that post-infection exposure == prophylaxis) prior to the varicella vaccine there were small numbers of shingles cases in children under twelve. After the vaccine was introduced the number of cases dropped to pretty much zero.

            So not only are we talking about the risks of chickenpox on the younger generation but the vaccine doubters also seem to think it’s ok to inflict shingles on the young as well.

          • Dr Kitty

            Or you know, the elderly people at risk of shingles could get the shingles vaccine, rather than young people being put at risk of by making them catch chickenpox.

            You know that chicken pox can cause encephalitis, pneumonitis, cellultis, necrotising fasciitis, sepsis, cerebellar ataxia, dehydration and coagulopathies?

          • Sarah

            Surely you mean that epidurals cause all those things?

          • moto_librarian

            No, that theory has been discredited.

          • Gæst

            I consider it quite natural to provide healthcare to both the young and old, including vaccinations.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t. My daughter and I, already disabled by vaccines, wear rubber bracelets which say No vaccinations. But please, I do encourage you to get them all. Every year. Every month once they ratchet it up to that.

          • Who?

            Enjoy that tetanus when you get it-or rather, enjoy your daughter getting it.

          • FallsAngel
          • Madtowngirl

            No. It has been well-observed that having had chicken pox “naturally” makes you much more like to develop shingles.

          • Mike Stevens

            Why is shingles increasing in the UK, which doesn’t vax?
            Why did what you call the “shingles epidemic” start in the US before vzv vax was introduced?

          • sabelmouse

            because we’re not machines, nor is the planet. and yes, you must puzzle this out yourself.

          • Mike Stevens

            So, you can’t answer the questions.
            Thought not.

          • ciaparker2

            The vaccination can cause shingles in recipients.

            Goldinart GS, King PG, “Review of the US universal varicella vaccination program,” Vaccine 2013, Mar 25; 31(13): 1680-94. Program not effective, cost-effective, and caused a large rise in shingles.

            Goldman, GS, “Cost-benefit analysis of universal varicella vaccination for the US taking into account the closely related herpes-zoster epidemiology,” Vaccine 2005 May 9; 23(25): 3349-55.
            Goldman, GS. “The case against universal varicella vaccination,” Int J Toxicol 2006 Sep-Oct; 25(5): 313-17.
            Goldman, GS, King PG, “Vaccination to prevent varicella; Goldman and King’s response to Myers’ Interpretation of Varicella active Surveillance Project Data,” Hum Exp Toxicol 2014 Aug; 33(8): 886-93.
            Chickenpox vaccination program neither effective nor cost-effective.
            Wu PY, Wu HD, et al, “Varicella vaccination alters the chronological trends of herpes zoster and varicella,” PloA One 2013 Oct 30; 8(10): e77709
            Vaccinating children against chickenpox increases the risk of shingles in teens and adults.

            Thomas, SL, Wheeler JG, Hall AJ. “Contacts with varicella or with children and protection against herpes zoster in adults: a case-control study,” Lancet 2002 Aug 31; 360(9334): 678-82.
            Adult exposure to children with chickenpox protects against shingles.
            Yih WK, Brooks DR, et al, “The incidence of varicella and herpes zoster in Mass. as measured by the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) during a period of increasing varicella vaccine coverage, 19998-2003. BMC Public Health 2005 Jun 16; 5: 68.
            Davies EC, Langston DP, et al, “Herpes zoster ophthalmicus: declining age at presentation,” Br J Ophtahlmo 2015 Jul 15.
            Chickenpox vaccine program decreased cases of chickenpox but increased cases of shingles and lowered the age of infection.
            Ogunjimi B, Willem L, et al, “Integrating between-host transmission and within-host immunity to analyze the impact of varicella vaccination on zoster,” Elife 2015 July 11; 4: e07116.
            Jardine A, Conaty SJ, et al, Herpes zoster in Australia: evidence of increase in adults attributable to varicella immunization? Epidemiol Infect 2011 May; 129(5): 658-65.
            Success of childhood chickenpox vaccination program is causing an increase of shingles in adults.
            Patel MS, Gebremariam A, Davis MM, Herpes zoster-related hospitalizations and expenditures before and after introduction of the varicella vaccine in the US. Infect Control Epidemiol 2008 Dec; 29(2): 1157-63.
            Large increase in hospitalization rates for severe cases of shingles, also large increase for required care, after chickenpox shot introduced.
            Brisson M, Gay NJ, et al, Exposure to varicella boosts immuity to herpes zoster: implications for mass vaccination against chickenpox, Vaccine 2002 Jun 7; 20(19-20): 2500-7.
            Edmunds WJ, Brisson M, et al, Varicella vaccination: a double-edged sword? Commun Dis Public Health 2002 Sep; 5(3): 185-86.
            Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an epidemic of shingles in adults.
            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct 25; 32(52): 7175-78.
            Kelly HA, Grant KA, et al, Decreased varicella and increased herpes zoster incidence at a sentinel medical deputising service in a setting of increasing varicella coverage in Victoria, Australia, 1998 to 2012. Euro Surveill 2014 Oct 16; 19(41): pii=20926.
            It’s not ethical to increase cases of shingles in adults and the elderly by reducing cases of chickenpox in children.
            Chun C, Weinmann S, et al, Laboratory characteristics of suspected herpes zoster in vaccinated children. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2011 Aug; 30(8):719-21.
            Weinmann S, Chun C, et al, Incidence and clinical characteristics of herpes zoster among children in the varicella vaccine era, 2005-2009, J Infect Dis 2013 Dec 1; 208(11): 1859-68.
            Children vaccinated against chickenpox are getting shingles from the virus in the vaccine. Putting details in here for Mike, who said it was only one case. Some of the vaccinated children are getting shingles from the wild varicella strain. Other vaxxed children are developing herpes zoster from the vaccine strain of the varicella virus. The vaccine and wild strains may be in the process of genetically recombining to cause some laboratory confirmed cases of herpes zoster in children who were vaxxed against chickenpox.
            Oh SH, Choi EH, et al, Varicella and varicella vaccination in South Korea. Clin Vaccine Immunol 2014 May 21 (5): 762-68.
            Vaccine in S Korea is ineffective and causing increased cases of disease.
            Merck & Co., Inc. Zostavax, prescribing information, Initial US approval 2006, revised Feb 2014. The shingles vaccine can cause serious adverse events and its long-term efficacy is unknown. Those over 80 who got it had twice as many adverse reactions as those who didn’t. Congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, respiratory infections, and skin disorders increased. After it was licensed, arthalgia, myalgia, anaphylaxis reported. Sensory loss and ophthalmic zoster. Considered 51% effective in adults over 60, but recipients only followed for development of shingles for median of just 3.1 years. For those over 80, vaccine not more effective than placebo.
            Lai YC, Yew YW, Severe autoimmune adverse events post herpes zoster vaccine: a case-control study of adverse events in a national database. J Drugs Dermatol 2015 Jul 1; 14(7): 681-84.
            Fried, RE, Herpes zoster. N Engl J Med 2013 Oct 13; 369: 1765-66 (letter)
            Shingles vaccine significantly increases risk of developing arthritis, alopecia, and other serious adverse events.
            Lal H, Cunningham AL, et al, Efficacy of an adjuvanted herpes zoster subunit vaccine in older adults, NEJM 2015 May 28; 372: 2087-96.
            New shingles vaccine contains AS01B – an adjuvant with unknown long-term effects.

          • moto_librarian

            Getting the chicken pox is what causes shingles, genius. And yes, chronic illness sucks. I have severe asthma, probably caused by lung damage from a bout of pneumonia when I was 5. Do you know what’s even worse? Getting the whooping cough or the flu when you have asthma. I just ran into a colleague who had the whooping cough last year and now has serious asthma as a result. You should stop talking about things that you don’t understand.

          • ciaparker2

            Asthma is usually caused by the pertussis vaccine, at a time when pertussis is no longer dangerous except for a small number of the very youngest newborns, who rarely get it anyway.

          • Jack Sprat

            May I be the first to call “BS” on the asthma / pertussis vaccine correlation?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Actually, BS on the asthma/pertussis connection was called days and days ago. Chia pet just ignored it, and tucked it away to pull it out later.

            Same old recycled nonsense

          • Jack Sprat

            Damn

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, it’s an old thread that is getting repetitively boring.

          • ciaparker2

            McKeever TM. Vaccination
            and allergic disease: a birth cohort study. Am J Public Health 2004 June; 94(6): 985-89. Those who got DPPT or
            MMR much more likely to get asthma and eczema. DPPT children FOURTEEN times
            more likely than unvaxxed children to get asthma (hazard ratio 14) and 9.4
            times more likely to get eczema. MMR children 3.5 times more likely to get
            asthma and 4.6 times more likely to get eczema.

            Hurwitz EL, Effects
            of DPT or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory
            symptoms among children and adolescents in the US. J Manipulative Physical Ther 2000 Feb; 23(2): 81-90. Vaxxed
            children twice as likely to get asthma and 63% more likely to be diagnosed with
            allergy-related respiratory symptom in previous 12 months.

            Odent MR, et al. Pertussis
            vaccination and asthma: Is there a link? JAMA 1994; 272(8): 592-93. (letter) 446 children around 8 years old
            who had gotten only breast milk in the first six months and nursed for over a
            year. In the 243 children who had gotten a pertussis shot, 10.7% had asthma,
            compared with 2% of those not vaxxed.

            Bersen RM, Nagelkerke NJ, et al. Reported pertussis infection and risk of atopy in 8- to 12-year-old
            vaccinated and non-vaccinated children. Pediatr
            Allergy Immunol 2008 Feb; 19(1): 46-52. Children vaccinated against
            pertussis were significantly more likely than unvaccinated children to develop
            asthma, hay fever, and food allergies. This study evaluated an association
            between pertussis infection and allergic diseases by dividing 1,882 8-12 year
            old children into two groups that were either pertussis-vaccinated or pertussis
            unvaccinated in the first year of life. Pertussis-vaccinated children were more
            than twice as likely as petussis unvaccinated children to have asthma
            (OR=2.24), hay fever (OR=2.35), and food allergies (OR=2.68).

            Kemp T, Pearce N, et al. Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy?
            Epidemiology 1997 Nov; 8(6): 678-80.
            In New Zealand, researchers investigated 1,265 children and discovered that of
            those who received diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and polio vaccines, 23% had
            episodes of asthma while 30% had consultations for other allergic illness.
            Children who did not receive these vaccines had no recorded asthma episodes or
            consultations for allergic illness.

            McDonald KL, Huq SI, et al. Delay in DPT vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood
            asthma. J Allergy Clin Immunol
            2008 Mar; 121(3): 626-31. Getting the pertussis vaccine later than recommended
            greatly decreased incidence of asthma. 11,531 Canadian children were the
            subjects. In those children who did not get the vaccine at two months old but
            delayed at least two months, the risk of asthma was reduced by half. Risk
            declined even further in children who delayed all three initial doses. In those
            who started at two months old, asthma at seven years old in 13.8%. Those who
            started at three months old, 10.3% got asthma. Those who started at 4 months
            old, 9.1% got asthma. Those who delayed
            more than four months of age, 5.9%. (This obviously means that the thousands of
            children who die from asthma every year died because they got the pertussis
            vaccine very early, meaning when recommended by the medical industry.)

            Bremmer SA, Carey IM, et al. Timing of routine immunizations and subsequent hay fever risk. Arch DIs Child 2005; 90: 567-73.
            Children who delayed pertussis, MMR, or BCG shots beyond the recommended age
            (by the medical cartel) were significantly less likely to develop hay fever.
            Two large UK databases of more than 116,000 children examined to look at how
            timing affected incidence of hay fever. Those who delayed the first DPT shot
            until after 1 year old had a 40% reduced risk of developing hay fever compared
            to children vaxxed by 5 months of age as recommended (OR=0.60). Those who
            delayed MMR until after 2 years old had 38% reduced risk of developing hay
            fever as compared to children vaxxed by 14 months of age as recommended
            (OR=0.62). Children who got BCG shot before second birthday had a much greater
            risk of hay fever compared to children who never got it or got it later
            (OR=1.34).

          • Mike Stevens

            You wouldn’t be the first.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Totally explains my father’s terrible asthma since about 1948

          • ciaparker2

            Did he have the DPT, which started to be given in the US in 1948? Or another one of the pertussis vaccines which were tried over a couple of decades before the DPT? Or the diphtheria vaccine, which started to be given in the early ’20s in the US, and which caused many severe conditions, especially after mercury was added to it in 1932?

          • Nick Sanders

            You are seriously going to argue against the diphtheria vaccine? Does your idiocy truly know no bounds?

          • FallsAngel

            No, it doesn’t. Next she’ll tell you diphtheria has decreased in virulence (tell that to all the people in the former Soviet states who got it when the Soviet Union broke up, or the parents of that dead little boy in Spain), that if a child dies from it, the parents are at fault for giving fever reducers, or not keeping the child in bed long enough or some other such piece of witchery, etc.

          • N

            And vit C will cure everything. You forgot that.

          • Simone Reilly

            I hope you fucking get a disease and die

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            He’s German born

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Inmunization against diphtheria in Germany started in 1940s, later than in the USA. In any case, can you please show us a paper published on a scientific journal sustaining your claim about asthma? Because there are reports about asthma in ancient Egypt papyrus of about 3000 years old, so its existence is previous to vaccines.

          • moto_librarian

            Tell that to a colleague who is in his 50s and was diagnosed with asthma after a confirmed case of pertussis. I can assure you that pertussis would land me in the hospital, quite possibly the ICU. You’re a selfish liar.

          • Gæst

            Is shingles worse than the flu? I never heard of it killing 40 million people like the Spanish Flu did.

            I have a chronic illness. It’s not the cursed life that you seem to imagine it to be.

          • FallsAngel

            No, shingles isn’t worse than the flu, usually. (There’s always that disclaimer!) But the pain has been known to drive some to suicide.

          • Gæst

            Good thing we have a vaccine, then.

          • ciaparker2

            Shingles was rare before the vaccine caused rates in adults to skyrocket. My parents (like everyone else) had had chickenpox, and they never got a case of shingles. I never heard of it when I was growing up. I read that in the UK a hundred people a year now die from shingles. I haven’t read how many in the US, but it must be at least 500 a year. When before the vaccine, there were 100 deaths a year from chickenpox, 50 in children, 50 in adults.

          • Jack Sprat

            “O’er ladies lips, who straight on kisses dream, which oft the angry Mab with blisters plagues, because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted are.” Shakespeare

            You may also wish to re-read the writings of Hippocrates, as shingles were well described.

          • ciaparker2

            That would be cold sores, not shingles.

          • Who?

            So now you’re an expert on Shakespeare as well? Does your virtuosity know no bounds?

            Your hubris certainly does not.

          • ciaparker2

            **

          • ciaparker2

            What is your educational level again? Let’s look at the text: Mab, midwife to the fairies, plagues ladies’ lips with blisters. Cold sores, or fever blisters, ARE caused by a form of the herpes, or chickenpox virus, but are a different strain of the virus than that which causes herpes zoster, or shingles. Zoster means belt, because the lesions occur along a nerve in a line, often encircling one half of the body like a belt. Cold sores usually cause blisters on the lips, but may occur on any mucus membrane. I had a friend who said her mother periodically got cold sores on her arm, so I guess they’re not always on mucus membranes.
            So please explicate the text so as to support the contention that the blisters with which Mab plagues ladies’ lips are really shingles, or herpes zoster. Jeez, the quality of pharma shills is falling off more every day, snark and nastiness being the only required skills.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Cold sores, or fever blisters, ARE caused by a form of the herpes, or chickenpox virus, but are a different strain of the virus than that which causes herpes zoster, or shingles.”

            Wrong again, Cia.
            Cold sores are due to Herpes simplex type1/2 virus, which is different to chickenpox virus.
            Chickenpox virus is Varicella zoster virus, and is exactly the same virus as the shingles virus.

            VZV, Herpes simplex, CMV, EBV, and HHVs etc are all viruses of the Herpes virus family.

            Please familiarise yourself with the facts before attempting to show off your poor knowledge of the subject.

          • momofone

            Shill argument = no other argument of substance to be offered.

          • ciaparker2

            I have put up dozens of scientific studies and irrefutable arguments. I submit you and your only upvoter so far, Dr. Amy, are unable to counter my points and so resort to attempting pitifully to play the victim card. Whatever.

          • Zogby
          • momofone

            You have posted loads of BS-infested woo. And I assure you I am not a victim, yours or otherwise.

          • swbarnes2

            Your arguments have hardly been irrefutable, and your citations usually don’t say what you claim they say. Which makes you a dishonest person for citing them as if they supported you.

            For instance from your McKeever paper:

            “Results. We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.

            Conclusions. Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema.”

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448377/

            It’s hard to say which drives which, your extreme unshakable vanity, or a thorough, bone-deep dishonesty. The truly irrefutable argument is that you post lies, and don’t feel the normal human shame at being caught.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I have put up dozens of scientific studies and irrefutable arguments.”

            No Cia, you have put up some scientific studies, but have deliberately and maliciously misrepresented their findings or meaning.
            You have also put up numerous citations to non scientific sources and “books” written by quacks, which you seem to think pass muster as valid, peer-reviewed scientific sources, for some reason.
            You have not put up “irrefutable arguments”, in fact every comment you have posted has been filled with fallacies, disinformation or plain lies.
            I have refuted most of these whenever I have read them, using appropriate, verified and valid medical sources and references.

            Quite why you feel you are the purveyor of scientific facts here is beyond understanding. Your lack of insight, and extreme Dunning Krugerism is legendary.

          • FallsAngel

            Who are you to ask about educational level? You won’t tell us when you last took a science class!

          • Gæst

            Oh what a load of crap. You don’t have a single citation for your figures. Just get the damned shingles vaccination and stop yapping.

          • ciaparker2

            New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT) by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government’s 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.

            Goldman’s research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.

            Dr. Goldman’s findings have corroborated other independent researchers who estimate that if chickenpox were to be nearly eradicated by vaccination, the higher number of shingles cases could continue in the U.S. for up to 50 years; and that while death rates from chickenpox are already very low, any deaths prevented by vaccination will be offset by deaths from increasing shingles disease. Another recent peer-reviewed article authored by Dr. Goldman and published in Vaccine presents a cost-benefit analysis of the universal chicken pox (varicella) vaccination program. Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases among adults aged less than 50 years, presenting society with a substantial additional medical cost burden of $4.1 billion. This translates into $80 million annually, utilizing an estimated mean healthcare provider cost of $280 per shingles case.

          • Gæst

            Where’s your evidence that shingles kills more people than chickenpox? Because you’re asking to sacrifice children to chickenpox by advocating ending the chickenpox vaccine. Dead children. I’m not willing to kill children based on one idiot’s internet research, are you? I know the CDC isn’t down with it.

          • ciaparker2

            Read these studies. Chickenpox used to kill fifty children a year and fifty adults in the US, out of a million cases. For the other 399,900 cases a year, it was a benign and beneficial disease. I”m glad I had it and glad that my daughter had it. These studies focus on the dangers that introducing the vaccine have brought in greatly increasing shingles cases which are deadly a lot more often than chickenpox.

            Goldinart GS, King PG, “Review
            of the US universal varicella vaccination program,” Vaccine 2013, Mar 25; 31(13): 1680-94.
            Program not effective, cost-effective, and caused a large rise in shingles.

            Goldman, GS, “Cost-benefit
            analysis of universal varicella vaccination for the US taking into account the
            closely related herpes-zoster epidemiology,” Vaccine 2005 May 9;
            23(25): 3349-55.

            Goldman, GS. “The case against
            universal varicella vaccination,” Int
            J Toxicol 2006 Sep-Oct; 25(5): 313-17.

            Goldman, GS, King PG, “Vaccination
            to prevent varicella; Goldman and King’s response to Myers’ Interpretation of
            Varicella active Surveillance Project Data,” Hum Exp Toxicol 2014 Aug; 33(8): 886-93.

            Chickenpox vaccination program neither effective nor cost-effective.

            Wu PY, Wu HD, et al, “Varicella
            vaccination alters the chronological trends of herpes zoster and varicella,”
            PloA One 2013 Oct 30; 8(10): e77709

            Vaccinating children against chickenpox increases the risk of shingles in
            teens and adults.

            Thomas, SL, Wheeler JG, Hall AJ. “Contacts
            with varicella or with children and protection against herpes zoster in adults:
            a case-control study,” Lancet
            2002 Aug 31; 360(9334): 678-82.

            Adult exposure to children with chickenpox protects against shingles.

            Yih WK, Brooks DR, et al, “The
            incidence of varicella and herpes zoster in Mass. as measured by the Behavioral
            Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) during a period of increasing varicella
            vaccine coverage, 19998-2003. BMC
            Public Health 2005 Jun 16; 5: 68.

            Davies EC, Langston DP, et al, “Herpes
            zoster ophthalmicus: declining age at presentation,” Br J Ophtahlmo 2015 Jul 15.

            Chickenpox vaccine program decreased cases of chickenpox but increased cases
            of shingles and lowered the age of infection.

            Ogunjimi B, Willem L, et al, “Integrating
            between-host transmission and within-host immunity to analyze the impact of
            varicella vaccination on zoster,” Elife
            2015 July 11; 4: e07116.

            Jardine A, Conaty SJ, et al, Herpes
            zoster in Australia: evidence of increase in adults attributable to varicella
            immunization? Epidemiol Infect
            2011 May; 129(5): 658-65.

            Success of childhood chickenpox vaccination program is causing an increase
            of shingles in adults.

            Patel MS, Gebremariam A, Davis MM, Herpes
            zoster-related hospitalizations and expenditures before and after introduction
            of the varicella vaccine in the US. Infect
            Control Epidemiol 2008 Dec; 29(2): 1157-63.

            Large increase in hospitalization rates for severe cases of shingles, also
            large increase for required care, after chickenpox shot introduced.

            Brisson M, Gay NJ, et al, Exposure to
            varicella boosts immuity to herpes zoster: implications for mass vaccination
            against chickenpox, Vaccine 2002
            Jun 7; 20(19-20): 2500-7.

            Edmunds WJ, Brisson M, et al, Varicella
            vaccination: a double-edged sword? Commun
            Dis Public Health 2002 Sep; 5(3): 185-86.

            Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an
            epidemic of shingles in adults.

            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella
            zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical
            perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct
            25; 32(52): 7175-78.

            Kelly HA, Grant KA, et al, Decreased
            varicella and increased herpes zoster incidence at a sentinel medical
            deputising service in a setting of increasing varicella coverage in Victoria,
            Australia, 1998 to 2012. Euro
            Surveill 2014 Oct 16; 19(41): pii=20926.

            It’s not ethical to increase cases of shingles in adults and the elderly by
            reducing cases of chickenpox in children.

            Chun C, Weinmann S, et al, Laboratory
            characteristics of suspected herpes zoster in vaccinated children. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2011 Aug;
            30(8):719-21.

            Weinmann S, Chun C, et al, Incidence
            and clinical characteristics of herpes zoster among children in the varicella
            vaccine era, 2005-2009, J Infect Dis
            2013 Dec 1; 208(11): 1859-68.

            Children vaccinated against chickenpox are getting shingles from the virus
            in the vaccine. Putting details in here for Mike, who said it was only one
            case. Some of the vaccinated children are getting shingles from the wild
            varicella strain. Other vaxxed children are developing herpes zoster from the
            vaccine strain of the varicella virus. The vaccine and wild strains may be in
            the process of genetically recombining to cause some laboratory confirmed cases
            of herpes zoster in children who were vaxxed against chickenpox.

            Oh SH, Choi EH, et al, Varicella and
            varicella vaccination in South Korea. Clin
            Vaccine Immunol 2014 May 21 (5): 762-68.

            Vaccine in S Korea is ineffective and causing increased cases of disease.

            Merck & Co., Inc. Zostavax,
            prescribing information, Initial US approval 2006, revised Feb 2014. The
            shingles vaccine can cause serious adverse events and its long-term efficacy is
            unknown. Those over 80 who got it had twice as many adverse reactions as those
            who didn’t. Congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, respiratory infections,
            and skin disorders increased. After it was licensed, arthalgia, myalgia,
            anaphylaxis reported. Sensory loss and ophthalmic zoster. Considered 51%
            effective in adults over 60, but recipients only followed for development of
            shingles for median of just 3.1 years. For those over 80, vaccine not more
            effective than placebo.

            Lai YC, Yew YW, Severe autoimmune
            adverse events post herpes zoster vaccine: a case-control study of adverse
            events in a national database. J
            Drugs Dermatol 2015 Jul 1; 14(7): 681-84.

            Fried, RE, Herpes zoster. N Engl J Med 2013 Oct 13; 369: 1765-66
            (letter)

            Shingles vaccine significantly increases risk of developing arthritis,
            alopecia, and other serious adverse events.

            Lal H, Cunningham AL, et al, Efficacy
            of an adjuvanted herpes zoster subunit vaccine in older adults, NEJM 2015 May 28; 372: 2087-96.

            New shingles vaccine contains AS01B – an adjuvant with unknown
            long-term effects.

          • Who?

            The answer to 1,000,000 less 100 doesn’t start with a 3.

            Who?’s life hacks: if there is a catastrophic error in the first paragraph, stop reading.

          • Sarah

            Even leaving aside the numbers for a minute, your conclusion is bollocks. You’re basically defining any case of chicken pox that doesn’t kill as benign and beneficial. Given that some cases didn’t confer immunity and some others came with serious non-fatal complications, that is an untenable argument.

          • Mike Stevens

            I am interested that you posted this, Cia:
            “Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an epidemic of shingles in adults.

            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct 25; 32(52): 7175-78.

            Points:
            1. Have you bothered to read the study? I assume not, because it says absolutely nothing about an “epidemic” (your term).
            2. If you haven’t read the study, why do you pre-suppose it supports your viewpoint?
            3. If you do read the study (please do), you will find it discusses the various ethical dimensions to chickenpox vaccine viz a viz the impact on the epidemiology of shingles in the elderly. It proposes that contractualism is a more valid approach than utilitarianism in this instance.

            4. When you have read the study, I’d be delighted to discuss it with you, as I think it is very interesting.

          • FallsAngel

            She’s lying. Here’s my post from three hours ago:No, you’re lying again. In the US, about 96 people die of shingles annually. The population of the UK is about 1/5 that of the US. If the rate is the same there as here, that means about 20 people. Now I think any death is sad, but if you can “live with” 500 deaths annually in the US from measles pre-vaccine, what’s your issue with 20 from shingles, most of whom are immunocompromised and/or elderly?
            https://www.cdc.gov/shingles/s
            Again, citation for “boosters for life” needed.

          • ciaparker2

            I ordered the book which another book reported had said that 100 a year died of shingles in the UK. I’ll put up a citation from it as soon as I get the book. Mike may have access to it now.

          • FallsAngel

            I don’t believe your books. Don’t bother.

          • ciaparker2

            I already ordered it. I remembered what book I had seen the 100 a year dying from shingles in the UK (it’s a UK book), and found the section where it said it, then looked at the footnote to see where the author had gotten it, and it said that book. I looked for the book on Amazon, found it cheap (in the UK), and ordered it. It will be interesting to me to see what it says on that and other topics. And it will be good to have the official source of the figure.

          • FallsAngel

            Well, obviously it’s a lie. Mike already refuted it. And remember, the UK does not vaccinate against chickepox! Those people are supposedly getting all this “natural boosting” from being around people with chickenpox.

          • ciaparker2

            Mike refuted it without knowing the source or what years we’re talking about? Mike is gifted with omniscience and infallibility? Makes sense for benighted people with a god-shaped hole they seek to fill, even if they have to do so with charlatans.

          • FallsAngel

            In case you missed it: http://disq.us/p/1f3bn8x

            You’re the charlatan BTW, cia.

          • Polak

            I don’t post on RAW,was mistakenly banned.

          • Mike Stevens

            Do keep up, Cia.

          • Mike Stevens

            What book Cia?
            I suggest you read the reference I gave you instead. It cites info taken from official morbidity and mortality data.

          • ciaparker2

            You didn’t give the number of deaths per year, just the rate per 100,000. So how many deaths per year?

          • Mike Stevens

            Here is the table from the paper, Cia.
            Case fatality ratio is in the last column.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/51d0e63fe5062ee6fa5c06c837609b7705a08c02c716dd0f39557a021561f5d1.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            Don’t you know the number of fatalities? As in 100 a year? I don’t want the case fatality ratio at this time.

          • Mike Stevens
          • ciaparker2

            So 20 deaths a year from chickenpox and 37 from shingles. And that’s without the varicella vaccine being recommended. So if it WERE recommended, you would see a steep increase in the number of people dying from shingles. I know you would like to just write off the current generations subject to getting shingles for the rest of their lives and enforce 100% varicella vaccine compliance. without worrying about the many who have severe reactions to the vaccine, even death, and the loss of the opportunity to get permanent immunity from the natural disease at an age when it is nearly always a trivial, mild, disease, but can be much more serious at a later age, and just figure out some schedule for mandatory boosters for life. One problem is that most people would not comply with varicella vaccine plus boosters for life: many would continue to get the mild, beneficial disease, but then be at increase risk of shingles, at that time much more likely to be fatal.

            No wonder the UK has not recommended the varicella vaccine for children. And no wonder that you were reluctant to put up this chart. I haven’t gotten the “Immunisation” book yet which said that the rate of shingles deaths in the UK was 100 a year, but got a notice that it had been sent.

          • Mike Stevens

            “So 20 deaths a year from chickenpox and 37 from shingles. And that’s without the varicella vaccine being recommended. So if it WERE recommended, you would see a steep increase in the number of people dying from shingles.”
            You really know how to lie and twist the facts, don’t you, Cia?
            There is no evidence there would be a “steep rise” in shingles cases after introduction of varicella vaccination in infants.
            You previously used the term “skyrocket”, implying a very sharp rise, yet as I showed you, the overall numbers in the US of shingles continued to rise very slowly at the same rate, and age specific incidence ratios (which account for a rise in the overall numbers of old people) showed no increase.
            So based on the USA experience it would be very unlikely there would be a steep rise. Yet you are confident in speculating there will be, and cite your fevered imaginings as “fact”. Well, sorry, that is not fact, that is speculation.
            Did you even bother to read the article I cited?

            …No, obviously.
            It was a cost benefit analysis, and it calculated there would be an increase in zoster cases with infant vaccination, but never stated cases would rise dramatically or “skyrocket” as you claim.
            Please temper your hyperbole and restrain your urge to diss vaccinations at every turn.

            Do you realise that there are other options for mitigating the possible rise in zoster cases? There is zoster vaccination, which would reduce incidence by at least 50% (and the newer vaccine is 88% effective), and the vaccine seems extremely safe with few problems other than local reactions after 4 year follow up.
            Shingles also responds to antivirals – early recognition and treatment will lessen morbidity (and any mortality) considerably. (To borrow your own words regarding infections, any deaths will be due not to the infection but due to the incompetence of doctors not intervening quickly… right?).

            “And no wonder that you were reluctant to put up this chart. I haven’t gotten the “Immunisation” book yet which said that the rate of shingles deaths in the UK was 100 a year, but got a notice that it had been sent.”
            I wasn’t reluctant to put up this chart. I put it up specifically for you to see as soon as I sourced the paper. It clearly confirms zoster deaths average 37 per year in the UK, not 100.
            In other words it conclusively shows you are wrong, yet again.

          • ciaparker2

            https://www.prlog.org/10394035-cdc-centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-or-centers-for-data-censorship-and-propaganda.html

            “Furthermore, important data from the VASP project that is entirely absent, include (1) shingles cases in the Antelope Valley population
            aged greater than 50 years demonstrated a statistically significant increase of 27.5% from 316 reported cases in 2006 to 403 cases in 2007 (giving a rate ratio of 1.275 with 95% C.I. of 1.1 – 1.5); and (2) additional data from the VASP
            project for the period from 2000 to 2002, years during which Goldman served as the Research Analyst for the VASP, indicate a statistically significant 56.1% increase in shingles among adults aged 20 years and over, with 237 cases of
            shingles reported in 2000 and 370 cases reported in 2002 (giving a rate ratio of 1.4 with 95% C.I. 1.2 – 1.7).

            Next, consider the fact that the current CDC study reports the shingles incidence rate among unvaccinated children who have had a history of natural or wild-type “varicella” disease is 239 cases per 100,000 person-years (95% C.I. 193-295). This rate assumes there was 100% enumeration of reported shingles cases (which rarely occurs in surveillance studies). After applying capture-recapture to the reported cases of shingles, the ascertainment-corrected rate is approximately double, or over 400 cases per 100,000—a shingles rate typically found among adults aged 40 years and older.

            This result has foreboding consequences for adults who also have had a previous history of natural “varicella” disease (usually when they were children).
            Their cell-mediated immunity is declining in the absence of exogenous (outside) exposures (boosts) to children with chickenpox, and this is
            demonstrated by the increases in reported HZ cases among adults from data collected from the same VASP project.

            The conclusion of the current CDC paper is overstated and misleading: “Varicella vaccine substantially decreases the risk of herpes zoster among vaccinated children and its widespread use will likely reduce overall herpes zoster burden
            in the United States.” While the paper’s conclusion does include the statement, “The increase in herpes zoster [shingles] incidence among 10- to
            19-year-olds could not be confidently explained and needs to be confirmed from other data sources”, additional data from the same VASP project during the same study also demonstrate large increases in HZ incidence rates among adults in all age groups except those over 70.”

            “Conclusion: The VASP/CDC’s selective and clearly
            misleading interpretation of the reported data should not dictate the
            conclusion, let alone attempt to guide the national policy for a vaccination
            program that currently requires a booster varicella vaccination and a shingles
            vaccine (that serves to boost older adults, some of which previously received
            natural boosting through exogenous exposures in the community). Mass
            vaccination of children provides at best 70 to 90% immunity that is temporary
            and of unknown duration and is shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult
            population where “chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times
            more risk of hospitalization compared to children.”

            So steep rise in shingles cases caused by the varicella vaccination, obviously including increase in deaths therefrom, in order to prevent a harmless, beneficial childhood disease. Hey, rather than try to vax everyone from cradle to grave, including boosters and shingles vaccine, WHY don’t we just go back to letting children get chickenpox? It was never a problem when I had it, never a problem in the ’70s or ’80s? So why not go back to a time when it WASN’T A PROBLEM? OK, sure, vaccine profits take a hit, but let’s be democratic and let ALL sectors in society cast our vote democratically? Vaccine damage from Varivax, boosters, and the shingles vaccine, lack of benefits from getting the natural disease, greatly increased rate of shingles, lifelong uncertainty as to vaccine effectiveness and duration, people getting often very severe cases of chickenpox outside the childhood years when the vaccine fails, OR NONE OF THE ABOVE?

            I got natural chickenpox at seven, and C got it at nearly two. No problem. I’ve had shingles twice, but, as I’m SURE you realize, I would NEVER take the shingles vaccine. Why have I been put in this danger? Neither my parents (who had both had chickenpox) nor anyone I ever knew or heard of had shingles before the vaccine. And now I’ve had it, twice, and I sometimes hear about people getting it. My Iranian friend got it five years ago, and it was extremely painful both while the lesions were present and then for an entire year from post-herpetic nerve pain. She was thinking about getting the shingles vaccine: I told her the dangers of it, obviously, but also told her that those who have a severe case are more likely to have another one, and I could not tell her either to take or to refuse the vaccine (I also told her how ineffective it was, and that it could cause congestive heart failure). I asked her a couple of weeks ago if she had gotten the vaccine, and she said no, she hadn’t. But why should she be put in this position?

            You weren’t reluctant to put up the chart? I asked you several times what the number of cases was, and you only replied with statistics as to rate, not brute numbers. How could you not be reluctant to put up figures showing how much more dangerous shingles was than chickenpox?

          • Mike Stevens

            Sigh… An attempted takedown of an article on shingles which has to be published in the “non journal”, Medical Veritas?
            Was it sandwiched between the articles about how HIV doesn’t exist and how exposure to television turns people gay…?
            And citing “not a doctor” Goldman…?

            There is still no evidence for your claims shingles has “skyrocketed” following vaccination against VZV. As has been pointed out, there will be a slight increase, then after several decades, cases will vanish entirely, forever (as long as vaccination continues)

            Lifetime risk of shingles is already 1:3 in the USA.
            Of course, in your own tiny mind, because your 2 parents didn’t get it, that means it didn’t exist! And because you hadn’t heard of shingles when you grew up, that is proof yet again it didn’t exist!

            Of course I wasn’t reluctant to put up the chart, you fool.
            It proved you wrong, so I put it up as soon as I came across it.

            Again, I am astounded by your deceit and lack of insight and any notion of logic. You describe shingles which kills around 100 elderly people with multiple comorbidities in the USA each year as “dangerous”, but label diseases like measles “benign and beneficial”, when it killed 450-500 kids each year, and brain damaged thousands?

            Can you explain why you are so irrational?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My personal rule is “be very skeptical of anything that has truth in the title.” Even if it is Latin

          • ciaparker2

            This book. It’s in H. Bedford, D. Elliman, Childhood Immunisation: The Fact, Health Promotion, England, 2001. Do you have it? I ordered it, I’ll look at the section on shingles when it comes.

          • Mike Stevens

            You may be interested in the studies of the newer zoster vaccine.
            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1603800#t=articleDiscussion

            It was highly effective (88%).
            Here is a cute video from the NEJM on it.
            http://www.nejm.org/do/10.1056/NEJMdo005084/full/?requestType=popUp&relatedArticle=10.1056/NEJMoa1603800

            Over 4 years, only one death was thought to possibly be linked to trial vaccine intervention out of 14,000 participants:
            …a 90-year-old participant with preexisting thrombocytopenia had acute myeloid leukemia diagnosed 75 days after the first dose of HZ/su and died from neutropenic sepsis 97 days after vaccination, without having received the second dose.”
            Rather a tenuous link, but that shows you how seriously these people take vaccine safety trials. As per trial protocol, any “event” in thise elderly population over the 4 year trial period was recorded as an adverse event, such as a fall or a fracture as well as medical events. And of course, there were statistically no more events/side effects reported in the active vaccine group compared to placebo.
            Placebo was normal saline (0.9% NaCl solution).

            “No safety concerns associated with HZ/su were identified in the current trial. The overall incidences of potential immune-mediated diseases, serious adverse events, and deaths were similar in the vaccine and placebo groups. One death in the HZ/su group was considered by the local investigator to be related to the vaccination; however, serious adverse events considered by the investigators to be related to vaccination were similar in frequency between the two study groups. In addition, reported serious adverse events were consistent with general expectations for this older population.”

          • FallsAngel

            Thanks for that info. I’ve seen a little about this vaccine. This is great!

          • Mike Stevens

            You need to look at the
            Green Book, free online, or this article, Cia.

            You are wrong (again). Less than one in a thousand die, (0.0-0.06) but the rate is higher in the very frail older group.

            “Mortality data were extracted from the Office of National Statistics (2001–2005) database (ONS 2005). Mortality due to herpes zoster is low until the age of 85 (0–0.5 deaths per 100,000 per years), and then it increases to 4.3 per 100,000 per year (average 2001–2005) ( Table 1 ). This corresponds to a case fatality rate of 0.36% in the oldest age group.”

            Estimating the cost-effectiveness of vaccination against herpes zoster in England and Wales

            A.J. van Hoek, N. Gay, A. Melegaro, W. Opstelten and W.J. Edmunds
            Vaccine, 2009-02-25, Volume 27, Issue 9, Pages 1454-1467, Copyright © 2009 Elsevier Ltd

          • Mike Stevens

            “Goldman’s research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.”

            Then please explain why shingles was so common, despite the very high prevalence of chickenpox prevaccine and constant “natural boosting”.

            “Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases”

            It is accepted that there may be more shingles in the coming decades. But after the current cohort of chickenpox vaccinees have grown old, there will be hardly ANY cases of shingles since the older people will never have had chickenpox.

            Finally, why is not-a-doctor Goldman having to publish a medical paper about vaccination in a toxicology journal?

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t think it would be justified, but everyone must make his own decision. The herpes zoster vaccine has caused congestive heart failure and many other serious adverse reactions, including death, as well as not being very effective: only 50% effective in those in their sixties, and close to 0% effective in those over 80. While most people don’t die of shingles at any age, though some do.

            Those who were not near children with chickenpox would have been at higher risk of shingles. Did your father ever get it? Has your mother ever gotten it? My parents never got shingles. I’ve had it twice, but would NEVER take the shingles vaccine.

            I think it would be better to let chickenpox (and measles and mumps) come back, and just go back to the way things were before 1995 in the US, before the vaccine. Trying to market the vaccine, the pharma pushers said that kids missing an average of one day of school and a parent having to miss work to stay home with him was the biggest reason to get the vaccine. At that time everyone knew what a trivial disease it was for the vast, vast majority.

          • Mike Stevens

            Once again, you fail to provide any coherent response to what are highly relevant questions which were raised by your last effort at posting.

            Cia, how about you address the issues before going on some waffle expedition again?

          • corblimeybot

            I come back to check on this blog after a hiatus, and the first thing I see is Ciaparker2, Lying Tool Supreme dropping straight nonsense in the comments. Sigh.

          • Nick Sanders

            Welcome back.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, some things never change.
            Every single comment Cia posts contains errors, and often deliberate outright lies (as she constantly repeats errors I have spent considerable time and effort correcting her on before).
            Welcome back to Cia Whack-a-mole county.

          • Mike Stevens

            What a goldmine of misdirection and misinformation you are Cia.

            “The herpes zoster vaccine has caused congestive heart failure and many other serious adverse reactions, including death”

            The Zoster vaccine is only extremely rarely linked to serious side effects, and heart failure is so vanishingly rare that I cannot find a verified report of it anywhere. There is no verified death following the vaccine that has been reported either. You are just making up garbage, as usual.

            In fact, suffering shingles is an independent risk factor for having strokes and cardiovascular events like a myocardial infarction.
            So vaccination against shingles may reduce the incidence of these events – another side benefit from vaccination!
            https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/04/shingles-vaccine-may-protect-you-2-ways/

          • Dr Kitty

            Given that the Zoster vaccine is given to people in their 70s, many of whom have histories of ischaemic heart disease and who are at high risk of developing CCF, it would be interesting to see the study which proved conclusively that the Zoster vaccine CAUSED CCF, rather than being a preceding correlating event.

            Cia, would you like to post it?
            You made the claim, I’d like to see your evidence.

          • Mike Stevens

            I think Cia is referring to the product insert for Zostavax, which she has “quote-mined”.

            “Fifty-one individuals (1.5%) receiving ZOSTAVAX were reported to have congestive heart failure (CHF) or pulmonary edema compared to 39 individuals (1.2%) receiving placebo in the AE Monitoring Substudy; 58 individuals (0.3%) receiving ZOSTAVAX were reported to have congestive heart failure (CHF) or pulmonary edema compared to 45 (0.2%) individuals receiving placebo in the overall study.”

            What she doesn’t mention is
            1. The differences were not significant, and
            2. The events are not “causal” but are, according to trial protocol, merely events recorded in the post vaccination period without any judgement being made on causality.

            Cia is intelligent enough to know/realise this; but she is deceitfully reposting this information to implicate the vaccine in causing death and serious harm. She knows that those tactics (i.e. to lie) work well down at Age of Autism and the other antivaccine internet cesspits she frequents, but they don’t work anywhere where the factual cold light of day can shine upon them.

          • Roadstergal

            This is the standard anti-vaxxers hold. Unless a vaccine actively PREVENTS anything negative that might happen to someone in a given age group, no matter how unrelated, it’s not good enough.

          • Azuran

            Oh, again with how if it didn’t happen in your family, it just doesn’t happen.
            I told you, my great uncle had shingles, yet he was exposed multiple times to CP through his life when his own kids and grandkids got it. How do you explain that?

            You might want to do at least a minimum of research. The number of Shingles death in the US is around 100 per year. And the possibility of a link with vaccination has been studied and found unlikely, because
            -the rate of shingles started to raise before the vaccine was introduced
            -The increase rate didn’t sped up when vaccination was started
            -Countries that don’t vaccinate for CP also have an increasing rate of shingles
            And although shingles is rare in children, children who are vaccinated against CP are less likely to get it than those who got CP

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia had shingles herself, she told us.
            Despite her claims that her chickenpox resulted in permanent immunity, the virus was latent in her nervous system, and reactivated.
            She then deliberately infected her daughter with material from the pustules.

          • Empliau

            CP needs to learn that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. None of her grandparents got it – great, but that doesn’t make it rare. In my family I have a 66% incidence in grandmothers. Honestly, is there a logical fallacy CP doesn’t not only embrace but also cleave to in the face of evidence, anecdote, and just plain logic?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Shingles was rare before the vaccine.”

            Please define “rare”.
            Is something that affects 10% of the population defined as rare in your book?

            If so, autism is extremely rare, even by your 1:50 estimation.

          • Erin

            The chicken pox vaccine is not on the UK vaccination schedule so if you are correct in stating that a 100 people a year die of shingles in the UK, all those people likely had chickenpox at some point previously and were most definitely exposed to it.

            My Mother had shingles a few years ago, she had chickenpox as a child as did her siblings. I also had it as a child so she was exposed to me whilst I was ill.

          • Mike Stevens

            Lifetime risk of shingles (before chickenpox vaccine was introduced) is 25%, Cia.
            That is 1:4

            Please tell us again how 1:4 is “rare”, yet 1 in a million is “common”?*

            *the risk of a serious/life threatening reaction to vaccines.

          • Polak

            I can attest to that,Had shingles for six weeks and the pain was unbelievable.

          • Mike Stevens

            False dichotomy, moosey, and you know it.

          • Who?

            I wonder what the trade-off would be?

            Say you could choose-either get an acute illness with a known death rate, or have a chronic lifelong illness with known symptoms and a known trajectory?

            I wonder at what point on the death-rate scale sabel would choose the chronic illness instead?

          • FallsAngel

            Shingles? Yes, that’s what you get from having chickenpox disease. You’re much less likely to get it if you’ve been vaccinated. Good point, sabel!

          • ciaparker2

            But the current shingles epidemic is BECAUSE of all the vaccinated children. Adults are no longer getting the natural boosters they need to prevent cases of shingles from appearing. Thank you, varicella vaccine, for killing so many adults now with shingles! It’s one of the main reasons the UK hasn’t recommended the vaccine.

          • Empliau

            I’m an introvert who’s verging on recluse, and even in my limited circle of acquaintances, I can again show you contrary evidence. My husband’s grandmother and my grandmother both had shingles in the late 1980s, before the varicella vaccination was available. Painful as all goddamned getout. No natural booster protected them. Everything you say is demonstrably wrong …

          • ciaparker2

            No one has said that it didn’t exist before 1995. It was much less FREQUENT before the vaccine.

          • Empliau

            Two out of three grandmothers (one of mine died quite young). Doesn’t sound infrequent to me.

          • Mike Stevens

            Ah yes, but if chickenpox vaccination had been around, then 13 of your grandmothers would have got it.

          • FallsAngel

            That is untrue. Rates are rising in countries that don’t vaccinate against cpx.

          • Mike Stevens

            Rates have been rising gradually in the US, or have even been stable, according to some sources. Hardly the “epidemic” Cia imagines there is.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/abf7b9c66f1ab5e49a8221290749700eb4cdf8eb96b741f5eac0ca4500d8c3bb.jpg

          • Mike Stevens

            Again, you trot out the lies and disinformation Cia.

            “But the current shingles epidemic is BECAUSE of all the vaccinated
            children.”

            No-one is calling the gradual rise in cases as an “epidemic”. That term exists only in your own imagination. Cases were rising prior to the CP vaccine introduction, and are continuing to rise at the same gradual rate, as evidenced by the references below.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/191/12/1999.long
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897984

            Shingles is rising because we have an aging population. It is rising in countries which do not vaccinate against chickenpox, like the UK.

            “Adults are no longer getting the natural boosters they need to
            prevent cases of shingles from appearing.”

            That is a partial truth. Yes, there is less natural boosting, but it is wrong to claim as you and your crony Sabelmouse do that shingles was rare in the prevaccine days because natural boosting kept it at bay. Shingles has always been common, and in the US one in 3 people will get it in their lifetime. (Even you got it, twice!). This demonstrates that natural boosting is of rather limited value.
            It is more logical to get artificial boosting through a vaccine, than to expect one’s grandchildren run the risks of having chickenpox just to serve grandparents up with a “natural” vaccination. I hope you never become a grandparent, if you are such a selfish and heartless person.

            “Thank you, varicella vaccine, for killing so many adults now with shingles!”
            Your statement is odd. Are you saying shingles kills many people? If so, then surely you would want to eradicate chickenpox virus from everyone, so no-one can ever suffer it again? Oh no, you don’t… you want one in 3 of us to carry on getting this supposedy lethal problem for all eternity? How illogical can you be?
            A temporary rise in shingles numbers will be followed a few decades later by a reduction in cases to nearly zero, if every child gets vaccinated. That is a worthy goal.

            “It’s one of the main reasons the UK hasn’t recommended the vaccine.”
            Amazing how you cherry-pick your justifications wherever you find them, huh Cia? The JCVI in the UK recommend a lot of things about vaccination, and you disagree with virtually every single one. But then they put a hold on chickenpox vaccine until more evidence that the cost benefits of vaccination are clear, and you suddenly start singing and dancing, shouting “See! They don’t do it in the UK, so they must be right!”.
            Surely anyone with a few brain cells can see how perverse this claim of yours must be.

          • Mike Stevens

            Show us on this chart where the epidemic of shingles started after the chickenpox vaccine was introduced, would you Cia?
            Maybe there is something wrong with my vision today, but I just am not seeing it…

        • ciaparker2

          We had whooping cough and chickenpox. Not that bad. We have also experienced severe vaccine injury (MS and autism, my father paralysis). I can ASSURE you that vaccines can and do kill or disable people. You are quite right. We do deserve moral approbation, and I don’t mind public shaming by shameless reprobates like you and your cronies here.

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, well, if you _assure_ us, how can we possibly doubt? 😀

          • Azuran

            I had all the vaccines, Not that bad.
            I even got an additional 3 doses of rabies vaccine and nothing happened.

            And again, nobody here is claiming vaccines don’t have side effect. However, you are deluded about what is and isn’t a side effect and how common they are.

          • Nick Sanders

            Your assurance is worthless.

          • shay simmons

            I can ASSURE you that vaccines can and do kill or disable people.

            Assurance is not proof.

          • ciaparker2

            I just suggested a list of about five basic books with truckloads of proof as to vaccine damage and autism. But again, you want the vaccines, please, go ahead and get them. All of them.

          • Nick Sanders

            Book. Have. No. Accuracy. Oversight.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            What you haven’t heard that Sacoridia’s Green Riders have been using magic to overcome the 2nd Empire would-be revolutionaries? True story

          • shay simmons

            Would those be the studies by Gary Goldman, a computer scientist (not an MD, immunologist or epidemiologist)? The Gary Goldman who can’t get his work published in any journal with an impact factor higher than 1.7?

            This Gary Goldman?

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2014/03/950-neil-z-miller-gary-s-goldman.html

          • FallsAngel

            Especially coming from her!

          • Daleth

            Assurance is not proof.

            Wait, even if it’s in all-caps? 😉

          • shay simmons

            And from such an unimpeachable source.

          • moto_librarian

            The only potentially plausible vaccine reaction is paralysis, but Guillan Barre is typically of limited duration. In the absence of proof, I simply don’t believe you. MS and autism are not caused by vaccines. Period.

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Nick Sanders

            And yet, you’re still here, day after day.

          • Simone Reilly

            Piece of shit male

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia will now say “nwmt”, code for “I can’t answer you”.

          • Nick Sanders

            Looks like you called it.

          • Zogby
          • ciaparker2

            Hey, Z, glad to see they didn’t confiscate your photo memes when they let you go! They’re so cute!

          • Zogby
          • JGC

            cia, how exactly did you factually established that the injuries you believe were caused by vaccines actually were caused by vaccines? Describe the method.

            The conclusion is founded in something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, I trust.

    • Gæst

      Seriously. I mean, sure, in the “can I go to the public playground” sense, a child between such illnesses is healthy. But a child who has caught all of those illnesses is not a particularly healthy child. My vaccinated kids have had none of those, after all – nor have they “contracted” (ha ha ha!) autism.

  • Sue

    Is Dr. Amy Tuteur still licensed as a physician. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine reports that her license expired in 2003.. correct me if I am wrong……..

    • Who?

      Read the box in the top tight hand corner of this homepage.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Someone should tell my husband’s doc that he can no longer share his opinion after he retires in February. Only *current* people count. Except you don’t believe David Gorski or Steve Novella, either.

    • attitude devant

      Sue, please pick another name! We have a wonderful Aussie FP who comments here (very pro-vax) and Sue is HER name. Her valuable opinions should not be confused with your nattering

      • ciaparker2

        Good point. I saw the other Sue’s comments and was taken aback. I thought at first that the Sue I knew would never say such vile things. Then realized that it was another Sue.

        • Mike Stevens

          Yes, “this” Sue does say some pretty vile things, I agree.

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, that Sue does, doesn’t she?

          • Mike Stevens

            Tell us Cia, do you think this Sue knows “more than 99.99% of doctors” like you claim to do?
            Perhaps your similarities run deeper than just being able to post a Gish gallop of utter scientific garbage, and you both are pretentious, insufferable egotists with an overdose of Dunning Kruger syndrome too?
            Maybe you are starting to channel Rene?

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    I’m proud to see my website becoming a black hole for anti-vaxxers. They seem inexorably pulled here to waste hours arguing with regular readers who think they are morons. Every minute an anti-vaxxer spends here is a minute that he or she is not babbling nonsense to vulnerable parents who might not understand just how ignorant anti-vaxxers are. Awesome!! Keep up the good work everyone!

    • Sue

      Oh don’t you believe it Miss MD,, wishful thinking though.. Lol

      • Polak

        Getting desperate now stooping to the moderator for someone to talk to as everybody else is giving you the flick.

        • Sue

          Oh poly poly give me the flick..it seem the moderator wanted to join her bunch of dumb and dumber followers.. how sweet.. but yes hope you are right and all are all giving me the flick.. but I bet they won’t

          • Who?

            You can’t bear to leave, as you said yesterday…

          • Sue

            Try me.. But does AMY TUTEUR, MD want anyone to leave as she is more interested in keeping people here.. did you not read her post..
            I found a little song about her..
            There was an ex-OB called Amy
            Whose hobby is midwife DeFamy
            She never has facts
            Her thinking is lax
            Like Wax and like Pang, she’s to Blamy

          • Polak

            Actually we love you here,you provide us with great comical comedy.Seriously have you ever considered doing stand up comedy?Judging by your performance here,you would be a hit,you know with that funny thing that you have with the English language and all.

          • Who?

            I think the language thing may be substance induced. Either that or the early shift of Sue is a better speller and grammarian.

            I agree she’s hilarious.

          • sdsures

            Her poetry is worthy of the Vogons.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            well, that particular “paragraph” is not standard English.

        • FallsAngel

          I like your new name, Polak!

          • Polak

            thanks,did it to upset Ron and Sue

      • MaineJen

        No one here is impressed by you.

        • Sue

          Oh really I am very sad about that.. that will keep me up at night.. But I guess sharing toxic info and supporting vaccine damaged children is something to celebrate.. OMG are you for real MaineJen.. or should I call Jen the unwise…

          • MaineJen

            Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

          • Sue

            Oh Jen the unwise.. well you are posting to me what does that say about you Jen.. It is funny how the insults keep coming but none of you are willing to ignore me,, you know the old saying stick and stones.. But vaccines do hurt me…..

          • MaineJen

            You’re trying to trick me into giving something away. It won’t work… XD

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Bless you, dear. It only hurts for a minute. Unlike having pertussis, which hurts for weeks and weeks.

          • Nick Sanders

            What is it with you and nicknames? You sound like you’re in freaking elementary school.

          • Al Mather

            Close…it’s drunk Australian.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
          • Who?

            The publican is checking the kangaroo’s ID before providing service at the bar. We know it isn’t yhe kangaroo’s driver’s license because he can’t look the publican in the eye.

            That’s it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Isn’t the fact that it isn’t the kangaroo’s picture on it a little more obvious?

          • Who?

            You have to roll with it.

            Just spent a few days visiting our son who lives in an accessible bit of the Outback, there were wild kangaroos where we were running his dog, a few minutes walk from his house. Amazing to see them.

          • Who?

            Yes she has some Aussie tics, and the more she bends the elbow, the more her spelling and grammar deteriorates.

          • maidmarian555

            Last night she claimed to be neither Australian (after repeatedly calling me a Pom and telling me to go watch some Coronation Street) nor drunk (despite the fact her posts were becoming increasing difficult to decifer). I am not convinced she was telling the truth on either count……

          • Who?

            Given her reputation for veracity, we can draw our own conclusion on both.

          • maidmarian555

            In fairness I am pretty impressed that she has managed to out-batshit some of the other posters that have been appearing here in the last couple of weeks. Every time I think the bar has been lowered as far as it can possibly go, someone new comes along to prove me wrong.

          • shay simmons

            I must respectfully disagree. No one could possibly out-batshit parker.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s pretty close…

            She’s not that ex-florist from near Perth, Australia, who pretends she is an immunologist, is she? What was her name again?

          • FallsAngel

            Angela Something.

          • Mike Stevens

            Angela Coral Eisenhauer, that’s it!

          • kfunk937

            Ang has recently returned to disqus, btw. She’s accumulated some *interesting* new hypotheses WAGs on how MTHFR mutations definitely and without a doubt affected her, her mental health and pregnancies. At some point since last we saw her, she also discovered Lymie woo, where she’s become mired in what I’d label the saddest corners of the interwebz. Oh, and she now endorses Morgellon’s too.

            Classic crank magnetism compounded with Dunning-Kruger on an escalation. And possibly a manic tear.

            Unfortunately, none of this has restricted or derailed her enthusiastic and prolific hatred of DTaP and its presumed (by her) association with microcephaly. She is currently “educating” the commentariate at this Zika linked to birth defects article at sciencemag, where she has once again left the majority of the comments.

            Any readers here who’re unfamiliar with ang and/or interested in refuting her claims are invited to have a look. After reading 100s of her comments, I think that she represents a sad, but oddly fascinating case. Often I lack the oomph to respond to her myself and rather than directly engaging, may comment about her comments instead. Chicken? Mebbe. But also hesitate to poke a stick at something best handled with care.

          • MaineJen

            Oh, my…Morgellon’s. Yeah, I’m not gonna touch that one…

          • shay simmons

            Ang has recently returned to disqus,

            If you mention it, it will come.

          • shay simmons

            Angela Something Something. But I don’t think it’s her, she hasn’t asked us the time in Mumbai yet.

          • Zogby

            FYI, that’s Sue Rope
            https://www.facebook.com/sue.ropenehennessy

            She’s a frequent commenter at Vactruth

          • Box of Salt

            Zogby “She’s a frequent commenter at Vactruth”

            Is she more coherent over there, or is her foray onto this site special?

          • maidmarian555

            Ah, NZ. That makes sense (unlike 90% of her posts).

        • ciaparker2

          I am.

          • moto_librarian

            Of course you are.

          • Azuran

            Wow, doesn’t take much to impress you.

          • shay simmons

            You’re impressed by the incoherent ramblings of someone who has yet to offer a single fact to back up her gibberish.

            Why?

      • moto_librarian

        I don’t know, Miss Sue, do you have any actual accomplishments in life beyond breastfeeding and childbirth? It’s so adorable when some amateur immunologist starts referring to a grown as woman with a medical degree as “Miss MD,” but I guess that’s all that you’ve got in your arsenal since you never bothered to do anything with your own life.

    • Mike Stevens

      Always ready to oblige when I can, Amy.

    • Leslie

      Do you realize how condescension toward patients by medical professionals is feeding the rising distrust in the Medical Establishment? The rampant God complex in traditional medicine is why so many people are moving to Alternative Health providers. I have spoken to so many retired doctors who are saddened by how the profession is turning into an “us vs them” mentality toward patients.

      • Who?

        ‘People hate that doctors know more than them, and would therefore prefer to be advised by someone as ignorant as themselves.’

        Fixed it for you.

  • FallsAngel

    Happy New Year, everyone!

    • EEJIT

      All the best to you

      • FallsAngel

        Thank you, EEJIT!

    • momofone

      Happy New Year!

      • FallsAngel

        Thanks, momofone!

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    What’s the difference between natural immunity and vaccine induced immunity?
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6639094b51c7dca05219820f88f74a1565184adc0d8ade45f55f254d330f9512.jpg

    • ciaparker2

      I’ll bet you haven’t read Dr. Suzanne Humphries’ Dissolving Illusions either. If you were to read it, you’d discover that death from contagious disease killed many thousands of children in the nineteenth century with the rise of industrialism, crowded dirty factory towns with malnourished, overworked laborers who succumbed easily to contagious disease. Smallpox, pertussis, measles, diphtheria, and scarlet fever were huge killers then. Smallpox suddenly evolved to become much less virulent after the US outbreak in 1897, and within a few years became much less common and much less dangerous, killing few and often being mistaken for chickenpox. The vaccine for it was always filthy and dangerous, and killed or disabled millions, huge numbers of vaxxed people dying of smallpox (or vaccine reactions). Dr. Humphries discusses how all the former killers became much less virulent and in most cases also much less prevalent before the vaccines for them were developed. Pertussis evolved to become much less virulent almost a hundred years ago, before the vaccines were marketed. Diphtheria became less common and less virulent as well, though the vaccine may have played a significant role in reducing deaths from it. Measles evolved to become much less virulent, until by the ’50s it had become a mild, routine childhood disease with a very low mortality rate. Before the vaccine. Scarlet fever never had a vaccine routinely given for it, as those they tried killed so many. The disease itself evolved to become much less common and much less virulent, until now scarlet fever is very rarely seen. Strep throat is common. Were scarlet fever to come back it could be treated by antibiotics the way strep throat is, no need for a vaccine.

      Trying to push people into getting vaccines by the use of shallow memes is unsatisfactory, and brushes off the huge percentage of children (and adults) being severely injured, even killed, by vaccines. Every parent must research the issues very carefully, each disease, each vaccine, and consider how common each VPD is in his area, how serious is might be, and both the most common form it takes and the most severe. Then research the adverse reactions most often reported for each vaccine, and carefully make an appraisal of which diseases might be an actual threat to their child, and if there are better ways than vaccines to protect him. There are homeopathic nosodes available for every VPD, and they are safe and effective. If the answer is no, then consider the vaccine. I’d say to consider the DT after the age of two, and consider the Hib and Prevnar vaccines only if the child won’t be breastfed for at least a year, will be in daycare, and only after the age of four months. Bearing in mind that the vaccines have caused a lot of severe reactions, even death, but meningitis has too. Not necessary to worry about it in children over two years old.

      • FallsAngel

        A couple of points from this Gish-gallop:

        There is no evidence that these diseases are getting milder. Humphries is insane, and has NO published research to support this nuttery.

        Scarlet Fever has not become less virulent; it occurs as a complication of strep throat. If the strep is properly treated with antibiotics, SF usually does not develop. You don’t seem to “get it” with SF, but what else is new?

        These nosodes are disgusting and unsafe. Good Grief, cia! You’re worried about the purity of vaccines. Nosodes start out as evil concoctions of all sorts of bacteria and viruses, then are watered down to nothing, but the garbage in them may not be killed.

        YOU HAVE NO MEDICAL EDUCATION OR TRAINING, AND WON’T SAY WHEN YOU LAST TOOK A SCIENCE COURSE. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS RECOMMENDING ANYTHING RE: VACCINES.

        • Mike Stevens

          Ahhh, but as she has often said, she “knows more than 99.9% of doctors” with their medical and postgraduate degrees, so she must be a cheenius!

          • FallsAngel

            Well, yeah!

          • ciaparker2

            I put up a passage which said that most children have achieved immunity to the bacteria which cause scarlet fever by the age of ten.

        • ciaparker2

          Not true. It is independent of strep throat, though the viruses are related. I put up quotes by doctors the other day who testified that pertussis and measles had evolved to become a lot milder than they had been. Of course they have gotten milder. And from the lot who always says that the dose makes the poison, and 50,000 ppb of mercury is inconsequential (when it is a lethal dose), how can you say on the one hand that the nosode is diluted down to nothing (but the energy remains) and then that it could be poisonous?

          • FallsAngel

            cia, you are really full of it and I think you know that “it” is preceded by “sh”. Scarlet Fever is a complication of strep throat, and neither are caused by a virus, they are caused by the Group A beta hemolytic strep bacteria.

            “Scarlet fever is caused by an infection with group A streptococcus
            bacteria (usually strep throat). The bacteria make a toxin (poison)
            that can cause the scarlet-colored rash that gives this illness its
            name.

            Not all streptococci bacteria make this toxin and not all kids are
            sensitive to it. Two kids in the same family may both have strep
            infections, but one child (who is sensitive to the toxin) may develop
            the rash of scarlet fever while the other doesn’t.

            Usually, if a child has this scarlet rash and other symptoms of strep throat, it can be treated with antibiotics. So if your child has these symptoms, it’s important to call your doctor.” http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/scarlet-fever.html

            Lukers: Please, please PLEASE do not listen to this ignoramous.

            No “energy” remains in these stupid nosodes, but the bacteria or viruses may remain in the solution.

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, it can be treated with antibiotics, but I put up several passages by physicians which say that if you start the antibiotics too soon, then the patient won’t develop the antibodies which will provide permanent immunity. If you go totally bats if your child has an infection and you just can’t wait even two days to start the antibiotic, well, then you have a child like the new vulgar commenter who says her son has had scarlet fever nine times in the last year. Wow, talk about not learning from your mistakes.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Virus”.
            …lol.

            This people is the person who claims to “know more than 99.9% of doctors”, and she doesn’t even know that Streptococcus is a bacterial infection, and not a virus.

          • ciaparker2

            Sorry, slip of the tongue. I did, however, say that strep patients should wait for two days before starting the antibiotic, which would obviously only be effective because it is a bacterial infection.

          • momofone

            Bull. Shit.

          • Mike Stevens

            If you think vaccines contain a lethal dose of mercury, where did all the dead kids go?
            95% or more have had vaccines.
            Are the only ones alive and with autism the unvaccinated ones?

          • ciaparker2

            When I say lethal I mean causing severe permanent injury. Although a lot were killed by it as well. Did you read A Shot in the Dark?

          • momofone

            So you don’t know the definition of “lethal.”

          • Nick Sanders

            “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

          • FallsAngel

            That’s our cia!

          • Mike Stevens

            “When I say lethal I mean causing severe permanent injury.”

            If you are so ignorant, use a dictionary, Humpty Dumpty.

            “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean”

          • shay simmons

            Dead kids, hell…where did all of the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines go, since one of the joys of the military induction process is getting all your vaccinations up to date.

          • Acleron

            Quotes aren’t evidence and by you not even reliable.

            Thimerosal is not mercury and isn’t present in most vaccines.

            Nosodes don’t contain energy but can be easily contaminated because homeopaths, like you, do not pay much attention.

          • ciaparker2

            it used to be present in many, and from 1990, when the DPT, hep-B, and Hib series all had quite a bit of it, we saw the beginning of the autism epidemic. My daughter reacted with symptoms of mercury toxicity to the Recombivax she was given at birth in 2000, without permission, a YEAR after Merck recognized that it was dangerous and that it wouldn’t make it with mercury anymore. But it continued selling already existing stock until its expiration date several years later, clipping my infant on its way out and causing her autism. It is still present in about half of injected flu vaccines in full strength, 25 mcg per dose, as much as it ever had. Fluzone, for example. And those who foolishly get it every year accumulate quite a bit of it.

            Thimerosal is 50% ethylmercury by weight, and is more dangerous then methylmercury.

          • Acleron

            Thimerosal is neither mercury nor ethyl mercury, it is Ethyl(2-mercaptobenzoato-(2-)-O,S) mercurate(1-) sodium

          • FallsAngel

            About 70% of the US injectable flu vaccine is thimerosal-free.

          • Mike Stevens

            You don’t even know what hep b vax your daughter got, and since she received it one year after thimerosal was removed from it, it’s doubtful she would have got any.
            You are basing your conclusions upon speculative assumptions, which on all likelihood are incorrect.
            Nothing changes then, does it Cia?

          • Nick Sanders

            Ppb is a concentration, not a dosage.

          • shay simmons

            It is independent of strep throat, though the viruses are related

            Not true. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/scarlet-fever/basics/definition/con-20030976

          • Mike Stevens

            As Nick says, 50,000 ppb is a concentration, not a dose. The dose a baby would get, assuming your concentration is correct, which is doubtful, is in a 0.25 or 0.5ml solution injected into muscle.
            Is it “lethal” to the muscle? …No.
            So what would be the volume of distribution for that dose in a whole child?
            …10,000 times less, taking a 5kg infant as an example.

            So the 50,000 ppb gets diluted down to 5 ppb.
            Doesn’t sound nearly as scary now, does it Cia?

            And it’s not administered on a daily basis, which is how Mercury toxicity calculations are determined, but very intermittently every few months.

            So that knocks another 2 decimal points off, and you end up with a concentration over the 3 month period of 5 parts per 100 billion.

      • Mike Stevens

        What a lot of garbage.
        Will direct evidence that you are wrong stop you incessantly repeating it?

        Let’s try just this one of yours:
        “now scarlet fever is very rarely seen.”

        See here:
        https://www.gov.uk/government/news/increase-in-scarlet-fever-across-england

        Public Health England (PHE) has reported steep increases in scarlet fever notifications across England, with a total of 6157 new cases since the season began in September 2015. This is the third season in a row where the incidence of scarlet fever has shown a marked elevation.

        Around 600 cases are being notified each week at present with further increases expected as we reach the peak season, which typically occurs between late March and mid April.

        • ciaparker2

          I’ve never known anyone who had it, nor heard anyone say that they had known someone who got it. It is rare these days when it used to be very common and often deadly. Now it’s readily treated with antibiotics, so it’s no big deal.
          How old is your son? Where did he catch it?

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s clearly not “rare”, Cia, not when there are 1300 cases a month in England.

            One definition of “rare” would be neurological damage due to a vaccine injury… Now that’s rare, seeing as how it affects around 1 in a million.
            But scarlet fever rare? …Not so much.

            Again, we come down to your warped definitions of frequency.
            If something happens to one in a million, you call it “very common” should it be a vaccine reaction, but if it is due to an infection, you call it “extremely rare”, although the frequency might be the same.
            T’was ever thus with you antivaxers.

            PS my son is 20. He caught it in the uk. It followed a strep throat, proven on culture.
            If this site supported pics, I’d post one.

          • ciaparker2

            Let me see how common it is here. It really doesn’t matter since it’s so easily treatable. I told C the other day that she’d probably get strep throat one day, but that it was important to wait for two days after the beginning of the pain to start taking the antibiotic, otherwise your immune system won’t have time to make antibodies and you may get it again and again.

          • Mike Stevens

            It is treatable, but that wasn’t the point, was it?
            My point was to show how prevalent it was, and to stop you saying “it is very rarely seen”.

            Time will tell as to whether you stay honest on that particular score.
            Judging on past experience, I don’t have much hope.

          • ciaparker2

            Mike, you’re there and I”m here. You said you had had malaria and bilharzia. I don’t doubt that many people in certain countries do, but not here. Well, my father had malaria when he was twelve, before the mosquitoes were reduced somewhat with DDT. But that was before my time.

            I don’t know, did you have the EV-68 epidemic we had two years ago? If so, I never read about it. How about the H1N1 flu seven years ago, I can’t remember if I read anything about it in the UK. That was interesting, about a third of my eighty students got it that September and October, we got it in January. They were out for a few days, then back. The student clinic told them to not come even if they had it, as there was nothing they could do for it. My brother said he knew a number of people at work and at church who had been hospitalized with it, and several died. Don’t know what to say about that either, but my theory is that people dependent on taking prescription drugs for every little thing ruin their immune system, making them more likely to die from something like that flu. It was supposed to be more severe in young people, like the 1918 flu, but none of my thirty college students had a bad case of it. I had a really severe sore throat that lasted for over two weeks, and a really painful, hacking cough that lasted over a month. But, of course, I would NEVER have gotten the flu vaccine.

            If you can find anything about scarlet fever recurring in the US, please send it, I’d be very interested.

            How cool, are the demonic flying monkeys really gone?

          • ciaparker2

            Tried again. Is scarlet fever a reportable disease in the US? Can’t find any figures on it. Found this: The bacterial infection known as scarlet fever has been on the rise in Britain, with cases also increasing in parts of Asia.

          • momofone

            You are a moron. You don’t get antibodies that prevent you from getting strep again.

            Edited to add that my son has had scarlet fever at least four times in the past year, and ten or more times in the past three.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, Dr. Hayes says you do, but you have to give your body time to fight the infection on its own before taking the antibiotic.

            ” Most parents take their kids to the doctor a day or two after symptoms start; and by the time they make it to the pharmacy and give the medication, antibiotics just don’t make that much difference. If started earlier in the illness, they work better, but they may also keep your child from developing immunity to the infection and make her more likely to get strep throat again.

            http://www.chadhayesmd.com/infection-confessions-2-strep-throat/
            From Healthy Child, Whole Child, p. 285: “there is evidence that it if better to let the tonsils and the pharynx have the chance to build antibodies for stronger local immune protection in the future than to step in immediately with antibiotics.”

          • ciaparker2

            Just found this as well: “Ellen Wald, M.D., medical director of Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh, noted that too-early treatment with antibiotics may impair the body’s normal immunlogic response and open up the possibility of reinfection, and that this problem must be weighed against the benefit of possibly preventing rheumatic fever. One study showed that those children who were treated with antibiotics immediately upon diagnosis had eight times the recurrent rate of strep throat compared to those children who delayed treatment. (18) In the context of other studies cited in this chapter, it may be worthwhile to compare those who received delayed treatment with those who received no antibiotics. It may also be worthwhile to compare these groups with a group of people prescribed a homeopathic medicine.]

          • Daleth

            this problem must be weighed against the benefit of possibly preventing rheumatic fever

            Ok, let’s weigh it: On the one hand the kid will be cured but might (according to one small study) be more likely to get strep throat again and will not get rheumatic fever.

            On the other hand the kid will still need antibiotics in order to be cured, might according to one study have a reduced risk of future strep infection… but… she also might get a disease that will permanently weaken her heart and possibly lead to her early death at age 40-50.

            I’m going with immediate antibiotics, thanks.

            But if you prioritize avoiding normal medical care over avoiding your child’s early death(!?!), I can see why you might choose to delay antibiotics.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Quoting a reference without providing (or, ideally, linking to) the reference is ridiculous. We have no way to evaluate the quality of the reference, know if the quote you pulled is an accurate summation of the message of the reference as a whole, or even know for certain you didn’t make the whole thing up.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia cites doctors from the 1950s for her medical sources, if she bothers to do so.
            Usually she relies on Internet testimonials or reads stuff in books written by quacks.

          • momofone

            How long should he have been breastfed for it to be enough?

          • ciaparker2

            It’s best to let him nurse until self-weaning, he continues to reap lifelong benefits as long as he nurses, and the longer the better. At least two years, but my daughter didn’t completely give it up until five and a half, and a pediatrician who went to La Leche League at the same time I did, said her daughter also self-weaned at five and a half. With every child and every situation different, there’s no hard and fast rule, but the longer the better. Protection from meningitis lasts for at least seven years from the time the child is weaned, and there are thousands of other benefits too which last a lifetime, like reduced cancer incidence. You could give your son colostrum even now to improve immune function: they sell it as tablets at the health food store or on Amazon.

          • momofone

            He breastfed until he self-weaned. And though I find your idea about giving him colostrum quite amusing, I no longer have breasts, so I’m not quite sure how that would work.

            Edited to add that I absolutely will not be ordering woo-filled tablets on Amazon or anywhere else.

          • momofone

            What’s actually best is to have him seen by actual medical professionals who have a clue what they’re treating and how best to do that.

          • Azuran

            Colostrum tablets? from the internet? what the hell is wrong with you.
            First of all: How do you even know this colostrum has antibodies for ST or SF?
            Second: You lose the ability to absorb the immunoglobulin from the colostrum at most a few days after birth. So a kid can’t get any kind of systemic benefits from drinking colostrum.

          • ciaparker2

            Says the guy who insists the immune system makes all the antibodies needed to strep germs within hours, not days, of exposure.

          • Azuran

            Me? I never said that. No one here has been saying that.

          • Acleron

            I think she is referring to me. I said the immune system starts up before she is aware of the infection. We used to see an antibody response in five days but Mike Stevens says seven. On reflection we were dealing with Ascaris suum extracts which are known to give strong primary and secondary responses.

          • Azuran

            Well, indeed the immune system starts up very soon after an infection. Still, there is a huge difference between 5 days and ‘hours’ as Cia claims. (But she probably doesn’t know the difference between immune response and antibody production)
            It definitely probably varies with the type of infection. It’s generally averaged around 7 days to see a response and generally 10-14 to have a full response. but it’s probably longer or shorter for various diseases.

          • Acleron

            Who said that?

          • ciaparker2

            “Taking a daily colostrum supplement can help your immune system stay at its normal levels to fight off infection and disease. It has even been suggested that colostrum is an effective and practical solution to help your body maintain its natural immune system against influenza episodes6. This is due to the high number of immune supporting compounds and substances that occur naturally in colostrum including lactoferrin.

            Some of these substances, like IGF-1, Lactoferrin, and Lactoperoxidase, can be sufficient in a low concentration to support normal immune protection and provide nonspecific defense. Lactoferrin, a natural defense protein that is found in secretions like saliva, is particularly important because of its antibacterial, antiviral and anti-inflammatory properties.

            Colostrum can play an important role in intestinal and stomach health. In many instances influenza begins in the intestinal tract and it is here where colostrum provides support by providing in-situ protection. It is already documented that colostrum is used to help combat chronic diarrhea in HIV infection and diarrhea caused by rotavirus infection in children.6

            When taken consistently, colostrum provides immune support to help your body against infection resulting in fewer influenza episodes.”

          • Azuran

            Just out of curiosity. How to do provide a good enough supply of colostrum? Women make colostrum for what, for 1-2 days after giving birth.
            All of this is just stupid.

          • ciaparker2

            The colostrum sold commercially is from cows.

          • Gæst

            No. You get zero protection from meningitis from breastfeeding.

          • ciaparker2

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12352801

            Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2002 Sep;21(9):816-21.

            Long term enhancement of the IgG2 antibody response to Haemophilus influenzae type b by breast-feeding.

            Silfverdal SA, Bodin L, Ulanova M, Hahn-Zoric M, Hanson LA, Olcen P.

            Department of Pediatric, Orebro University Hospital, Orebro, Sweden. sven-arne.silfverdal@orebroll.se

            This study indicates the presence of a long lasting enhancing effect of breast-feeding on the antibody response to Hib in children, in particular on IgG2 Hib antibody production.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10569222

            Acta Paediatr Suppl. 1999 Aug;88(430):42-6.

            Human milk and host defence: immediate and long-term effects.

            Hanson LA.

            Department of Clinical Immunology, Göteborg University, Sweden. lars.a.hanson@immuno.gu.se

            There is also good evidence for enhanced protection for years after the termination of breastfeeding against Haemophilus influenzae type b infections,
            otitis media, diarrhoea, respiratory tract infections and wheezing bronchitis.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10195681

            Int J Epidemiol. 1999 Feb;28(1):152-6.

            Protective effect of breastfeeding: an ecologic study of Haemophilus influenzae meningitis and
            breastfeeding in a Swedish population.

            Silfverdal SA, Bodin L, Olcén P.

            Department of Paediatrics, Orebro Medical Center Hospital, Sweden.

            In a case-control study of possible risk factors for invasive HI infection conducted in the same area,
            1987-1992, breastfeeding was found to be a strong protective factor.

          • Gæst

            Nope, not one of those says that breastfeeding a child gives seven years of protection against meningitis. Read Dr. Amy’s posts here. The evidence for breastfeeding is that it may reduce ear infections and episodes of diarrhea for a very limited time in infants. The end. It does nothing else other than provide nutrition after that.

          • Mike Stevens

            Didn’t stop her getting pertussis, did it?
            Something wrong with your breast milk?

          • ciaparker2

            Interesting you should mention that. It’s because I got the DPT a number of times as a child, and original antigenic sin means that once you’ve ever had the vaccine, it programs a deficient immune response onto your immune system hard drive, and your body will never be able to achieve permanent immunity to pertussis even after having the natural disease (which I did at the same time C had it at eight and nine months old). If I had gotten the disease in earlier life, probably as a child, and gotten permanent immunity, then I would have had antibodies in my milk to give her. As it was, I didn’t. It’s well-known that breastfeeding doesn’t prevent pertussis as it does many other diseases which the mother has been exposed to. And the reason is the antigenic sin.

          • Mike Stevens

            But you told us the way to avoid infant pertussis is to isolate the child in quarantine with the mother and to breast feed.
            You seem to think breast feeding will prevent all disease (it didn’t work out too well as an infection deterrent in the centuries gone by, did it?)

          • ciaparker2

            I never have, realizing that women who have ever gotten the pertussis vaccine will never have the antibodies in their breastmilk. Breastfeeding is very important for thousands of other reasons, but not that of protecting children from pertussis.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, you are right (for once) – breast feeding will not prevent pertussis (nor will it effectively prevent many other infections).

            Women who have had natural pertussis have no maternal antibodies (they have disappeared by the time women usually have children).

            The best way to prevent pertussis in young infants (that is, before they can get vaxed and gain some of their own protection) is to stimulate passive antibody transfer from the mother during pregnancy, by giving all pregnant women a pertussis vaccination booster.

            This works very well, and has already shown its benefits, since becomming part of the recommendations in the USA and UK a few years ago. Here are just a few of the recent reviews/studies on it:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22012116
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23507974
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22495061
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25560127
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26366844
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25454988
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24799324
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23488311
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26374816

          • swbarnes2

            Explain the mechanism (cell types, gene pathways) by which this “sin” is propagated, or you are just flat out lying. You using stupid metaphors like “hard drive” is pathetic, and obviously very, very wrong.

            It’s sad, you started by lying about how making your child deathly ill was good for her, and now you are trapped. You don’t understand immunology. Not one little bit. But you are so fundamentally warped, you can’t stop making things up. You couldn’t even if you tried.

          • Gæst

            HA HA HA! Yes, whenever someone presents to a doctor with a viral or bacterial illness, the first thing they always ask is “how long were you breastfed?” because that has soooooooo much relevance to the disease at hand. Go on, now – stop writing nonsense comments and get back to reading Dr. Amy’s posts and following up with the links to credible sources provided here.

          • kfunk937

            Cia, you have quoted Chad Hayes, MD. Do you agree with his pro-vaccination advice as well?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Of course not. Clearly Chad Hayes, MD is part of the stupid medical establishment conspiracy, and Chia Pet know more than he does about everything.

            But if he says something she likes, she can still parade him around as an expert.

          • FallsAngel

            Always the mother’s fault, isn’t it cia?

            Lots in this Gish-gallop, but enough with the breast feeding, cia! Breast feeding is good for a lot of things, but it does not prevent strep. Good grief! Strep tends to be a disease of older pre-schoolers and school age kids. Now I know you breast fed for years, but most kids are done by 2 or so, even with “baby led weaning”.

          • Acleron

            You idiot.

            The immune system kicks off before you’ll ever see any symptoms and will be complete before the antibiotic stops the infection and the organisms and their toxins are cleared.

          • ciaparker2

            Then why did I find so many medical recommendations saying that you should wait a few days before starting antibiotics so you can get antibodies and permanent immunity? I just found in Glockler’s book that she says you should wait four days after the symptoms start before giving antibiotics for scarlet fever, for the same reason.

            Your insisting that the immune system must SURELY have had enough time by the time the antibiotics are procured when so many of those who take them quickly get the illness over and over again. while those who wait before taking them, don’t. Why would you want to bludgeon the immune system into submitting to your demand that it crank out the desired antibodies tout de suite, and if not, take that! Antibiotics! HOW ungrateful of it to then go and get scarlet fever/strep throat over and over again, when you KNOW that it had enough time!

          • Acleron

            Your information is so unreliable that I wonder if anything you say is correct.

          • momofone

            “Then why did I find so many medical recommendations saying that you
            should wait a few days before starting antibiotics so you can get
            antibodies and permanent immunity?”

            Because you don’t use actual medical sources?

          • ciaparker2

            Look at them. Several are actual medical sources. A lot of doctors take a more holistic view of illness than conventional ones.

          • FallsAngel

            I worked in pediatrics for about 40 years total, the last 11 years of my career in a pediatrics office. Never heard of it.

          • ciaparker2

            I can’t find the comment in which you said that your son has PANDAS. I’m very sorry, you’re in a difficult and frustrating position. I understand now why he has had nine bouts with scarlet fever in one year. And why he needs to take antibiotics so often. How terrible. I hope you will look at these links, you might find ideas that could help you. Not trying to be preachy, I’m very sorry that you are in this position. I understand that antibiotics are necessary for him at this time, but it would be good if you were able to try strategies that might improve the underlying condition of the damaged immune system and autoimmune reactions to the strep bacteria. I found a very good book last year on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet for autism, ADHD, Asperger’s, colitis, Crohn’s disease, etc., by Raman Prasad. It has really helped my daughter, who has autism and chronic bowel disease. I just looked, and it is also recommended for PANDAS. And I also found that the issue of giving probiotics is more complicated for PANDAS children than for most, but one of these links discusses the issues and strategies for giving probiotics in a way which won’t exacerbate the problem.

            I thought at first that the diet would be very hard to follow, but it’s really not that bad. Prasad’s book has very explicit instructions on how to set up your kitchen for it, with several weeks of sample menus. I also have books like Lucy’s Kitchen and all of Kelly Brozyna’s Spunky Coconut books, which are excellent. She has a daughter who, like mine, reacted to vaccines with autism and bowel disease, another daughter with just bowel disease, and she herself has celiac disease which she says is in complete remission as long as she sticks to the diet. She says that Ashley would go nuts if she even had a trace of casein, they would say she was on dairy like saying she was on drugs.

            One of these sources suggests supplements to work toward getting off of antibiotics while still treating PANDAS, and gives details on how it affected her autistic daughter with bowel disease (Regarding Caroline).
            http://www.regardingcaroline.com/goldenseal.html

            http://savingourpandas.org/diets-dont-work/
            (this says that they really do, but it’s hard to maintain the strictness required)

            The SCDiet for Autism, etc., Raman Prasad (I got it at Amazon)

            Against All Grain, Danielle Walker

            http://www.gapsdiet.com/
            http://www.pandashopeforhealing.com/Blog-Blog/2015/4/Can-Probiotics-Make-PANDAS-Worse

            https://www.facebook.com/GAPSDiet/posts/10150389104822840
            (comments specifically by parents using this diet to treat PANDAS in their children)

          • ciaparker2

            One more:

            http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/tag/pandas/

            Unsettling, reading the symptoms made me wonder if maybe my daughter has PANDAS too. Probably not, her general health is very good.

          • momofone

            I do appreciate your kind response and what I see as a genuine desire to be helpful. He is not as severely affected as many people, but certainly it’s a concern (and of course we don’t want the effects to worsen). His general health is excellent; the PANDAS-related issues flare when he has an active infection, but he is healthy and happy otherwise.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m glad to hear that. I hope that he will recover and leave the flare-ups behind. I have a nephew born with a strep B infection from his mother. Never diagnosed with PANDAS, but he had anger issues that now I’m wondering if maybe he did have it.

          • momofone

            In my son’s case, the emotional lability occurs during a flare, but isn’t present all the time. The primary issue is a variety of tics, vocal and motor. They do not go away entirely, but when we see them increase in frequency, we can set our clocks by them; he will have a sore throat and/or rash within 24 hours. He only rarely runs fever when he has an active infection, and when he does it’s low-grade, so that has never been a reliable indicator for him.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m sorry. I would feel helpless and hopeless if I were in your shoes. I guess I’m in similar shoes. My daughter gets very angry and insulting periodically. She used to say “I want you to die,” over and over. Said it to the teacher of her self-contained middle school class too, over and over, in a cold, chilling voice. Usually she’s cheerful and helpful. I’ve been teaching her English as a second language for three years: the vaccine encephalitis severely damaged the neural circuits in the language and social center of her brain and she was diagnosed with aphasia as well as autism last year: stroke-like damage to the language center of the brain. (Not trying to be confrontational about vaccines, just saying what has happened to us and what I am certain caused it.) So I started from the beginning, and it’s been pretty amazing, though very slow. Three years ago after doing exercises with these structures in the Cambridge ESL Connect series, she started saying, for the first time, THERE it is! and It was in the garage (first prepositional phrase ever, at 13 years old). When we watched E.T. she asked WHO is in the tool shed? (first independent use of “who”), and so on. The other day we talked back and forth about storing leftover food in the refrigerator, she was putting it away, and afterwards I thought Wow. I didn’t even notice at the time, but she was putting together sentences in a correct, logical way, which she was totally unable to do not that long ago. Acquiring the structures of language is letting her remember things and reason about them in a way she couldn’t before. I’m certain that if it were standard to teach autistic children ESL from the very beginning, basically ABA for language, it would recover them to a much higher level than is being done now. I convinced the local autism resource specialist, and he tried to start ESL instruction (called it something else) in high school, said that the traditional “chat” therapy was useless and did no good. He’s right there, the theory has always been that they COULD use language if they wanted to, after all, they’ve heard it all day every day for their entire lives, but it’s social anxiety that keeps them from understanding or formulating language. And that’s all wrong. It’s physical damage to the neural circuits in their brain, Noam Chomsky’s inborn grammatical brain structures which permit children to categorize and produce their native language.

          • momofone

            I’m sorry. That must be so hard.

            I don’t feel helpless or hopeless; we have been fortunate to have excellent care, and he is not as severely affected as many people are by it. I’m grateful to have exceptional doctors whose training and experience has enabled them to help us make decisions for his benefit.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m glad that that’s the case. I had seen the term PANDAS before, but didn’t know anything about it until you mentioned it and I read a little about it. The more severe cases I read about would be terrible to live with and have to figure out what to do.

          • Mike Stevens

            I wish your son the best. I hope you don’t rely on advice from medically ignorant individuals on the Internet for advice.

          • momofone

            Thank you. Nope–it’s Big Pharma all the way for us. It’s one reason I have so little patience for the ignorance.

          • Mike Stevens

            ..

          • shay simmons

            Anyone who cites the Drinking Moms Revolution forfeits any right to be taken seriously (not that anyone here took you seriously to begin with).

          • kfunk937

            Speaking of regardingcaroline torturingcaroline

            Those parents not only “treated” their daughter with restrictive diets, but also with chelation(!), HBOT and unnecessary antibiotics, antifungals, opiate antagonists, as well as banned/illegal adrenal extracts (recommended by a naturopath, natch). Then they resorted to homeopathic belladonna, only harmless because it contains no active ingredient.

            But there’s still hope! After all, despite years of torture with only modest improvement—all of which could be explained by her evidence-based treatments like sensory therapy, occupational therapy, and speech therapy—there’s always camel milk, which has been Caroline’s family’s latest attention-whoring effort to experiment on their daughter. And when that fails to magically rewire her brain?

            Well… They can always blame vaccines.
            ~snip~
            I know that “Big Pharma” isn’t the reason, and one day, Caroline will realize that, too. Caroline is being mistreated by parents who can not and will not accept that she is wonderfully, uniquely, beautifully special. Caroline’s parents are willing to stop at absolutely nothing, no matter the side effects and no matter the danger, in a sick and brutal effort to rewire the neurology that makes her an individual human being. One day, Caroline [will] know. [emphasis in original

            Why cherry-pick just the diet, when the whole cafeteria of woo is available? One more example of cia’s internal logic fails.

            Note: I do not recommend the cafeteria method, either.

          • shay simmons

            In a just world, these people would be locked up for child abuse.

          • momofone

            It only doesn’t matter if it doesn’t affect you.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t know anything about your son’s health but what you have mentioned, and I don’t mean to be flippant about a possibly immunocompromised child. But even if he is, it would be better when he gets sick to put him to bed and keep him there until three days after the fever is gone. There is some good advice at this site:
            http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/are-antibiotics-necessary-for-strep-throat/

            I think it would be beneficial if at all possible to keep your son in bed as long as he was sick, plus three days, but to wait several days before giving him an antibiotic. It’s necessary to stay well-hydrated, but I remember when I had strep throat I was the sickest I’d ever been in my life, and felt as though a knife were being pulled across my throat. Literally. I lost several pounds in a week, and was in the most excruciating pain. I couldn’t eat or drink. Not knowing your son, I’d have to say you’d have to go one step at a time, play it by ear, but to ask yourself at every step if it’s possible to wait a little longer to start the antibiotic. The longer you wait, the more likely it is that his immune system will become stronger and will make the antibodies that will protect him from the same germs in the future. Of course if there are any symptoms which might become life-threatening, you should take him to the ER.

          • momofone

            Thank you, but I’ll stick with professional medical advice.

          • momofone

            For him there is more to it than if you had strep (you can do whatever you choose, obviously; we will be going to the doctor). He has developed PANDAS as a result of group A strep. Your vision of the immune system is not a realistic one. You can choose to suffer, and to risk the other possible effects of strep, and unfortunately if your child/ren are minors, you can force them to suffer (however inhumane that is), but we will not force him to suffer in the misguided service of woo.

          • Mike Stevens

            Don’t listen to Cia. She embraces every quack medical notion going, from homeopathy to naturopathy, and declares she knows “more than 99.99% of doctors”, and she liberally dispenses her homespun medical advice.

            FYI, her family suffers the hereditary Neurexin-1 gene deletion, which impairs synapsing in the CNS – the direct cause of why her daughter has autism (but she also suffered prenatal cerebral hypoxia which necessitated Cia having an emergency c section, which was a contributory factor).

          • ciaparker2

            I said on the subject of vaccines and VPDs. Whom are you addressing with your exhortation? Don’t you think the reader can judge for himself whom he thinks sounds informed, and then research it himself to make up his mind on the issues?

            You are not telling the truth about what happened to me and to my family members. I’m glad I’m not you. How ignominious.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you still say you know more about vaccines and vaccine preventable diseases (interesting to see you call them that) than 99.99% of doctors?

            You could find 10,000 doctors, and you would know more than all of them except one?

            You are bat sh1t crazy Cia. You are quite deluded and spend your time confabulating on the Internet, convinced that your biased opinions hold some sort of medical validity.

            Tell me, do you think you know more about vaccines and infectious diseases than me?

          • ciaparker2

            Hard to say since you aren’t honest in what you say about them. I can’t assess what you would say if you were.

          • Mike Stevens

            That’s a non answer if I ever heard one, Cia.
            So, in summary, you say that only one doctor in 10,000 would know more than you do about vaccination and vaccine preventable infectious diseases.

            And you find it hard to say if you know less ar more than a doctor who has over 30 years clinical experience in infectious diseases, including tropical paediatrics, immunology and vaccines, who currently works as an infection specialist in an NHS hospital and does research on neuro infections like meningitis and encephalitis, and who has a postgraduate thesis MD in immunology?

          • shay simmons

            Hard to say since you aren’t honest in what you say about them

            What has Mike said about vaccines and infectious diseases that isn’t true? Put up or shut up.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You are not telling the truth about what happened to me and to my family members”

            Honestly Cia, I don’t think anyone could read your bizarre family history and tease out the minuscule slivers of any truth from the mass of lies.
            Tell us again how your uncle fell asleep in the sun for 2 hours and woke up with schizophrenia, because the sun had pulled Mercury out of his bones and it poisoned his brain. That one always tickles me.

            I have never “not told the truth” about your family…all I have done is repeat what you have told us, like your family having a NRXN-1 gene deletion, and your daughter having cerebral hypoxia at birth. People need to know that the autism she suffers is nothing to do with imaginary vaccine damage.

          • Mike Stevens

            I posted to you in error. I meant to respond to mumofone.

          • shay simmons

            Don’t you think the reader can judge for himself whom he thinks sounds informed,

            Yes, and it would not be you.

            You are not telling the truth about what happened to me and to my family members.

            He’s only repeating what you’ve told everyone, here and on other forums.

          • shay simmons

            I don’t know anything about your son’s health

            Plus, you’re totally unqualified to be dispensing medical advice.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You do know that the point of taking antibiotics for strep throat is to avoid making “natural” antibodies, don’t you? The antibodies the body makes against strep sometimes cross react with heart tissue and result in rheumatic fever years after the initial infection. Several of my relatives died in their 40s and 50s of this complication. It’s quite common.

          • Nick Sanders

            I knew untreated strep could cause heart problems, but I just assumed that the bacteria were good at crossing the distance between the esophagus and the heart. Thanks for this post, it taught me something!

          • ciaparker2

            It has become rare for it to do so. Rheumatic fever used to be a common complication, but it no longer is, even if you don’t treat it.

          • shay simmons

            Rheumatic fever is no longer a complications because it is prevented from happening by treating strep.

          • ciaparker2

            http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2006/01/27/why-has-rheumatic-fever-declin/

            In the US, the incidence of rheumatic fever has dropped dramatically over the past 4 decades (see figure). Was this due to a change in the population structure of S. pyogenes? Previous studies had suggested it was. To test this, Shulman et al.
            examined the M type of bacteria collected between 1961-8 in Chicago, and from Chicago and a number of other sites across the country between 2000-4. 2 types that are known to cause rheumatic fever (serotypes 1 and 12) had essentially
            identical percentages over the years and in various geographic regions. However, other rheumatogenic seroypes–3, 6, 5, and 14–were significantly
            decreased in the recent sampling compared to those found in the 1960s. Other nonrheumatogenic types, conversely, increased, including serotypes 2, 4, 22, and 28.

            So, this suggests that a decrease in rheumatogenic serotypes of S. pyogenes has played a role in the decreasing incidence of rheumatic fever in the United States over the past 40 years. However, rheumatogenic M types have decreased only approximately 2-5 fold, while RF has decreased
            approximately 20-fold–so we’re still not seeing the whole picture. These missing pieces become critical because a vaccine for S. pyogenes based
            on the M protein is in the works. Though this is a main antigen, it’s been tough to design a vaccine against it due to the fact that antibodies to the
            protein cross-react with heart tissue–an autoimmune reaction that results in the development of RHD. Though this disease is now rare in the US and other developed countries, it is still a scourge worldwide. Chronic RHD is estimated to exist in 5-30 million children and young adults; 90,000 patients die from this disease each year.

          • shay simmons

            Your citation does not contradict my point.

          • ciaparker2

            So please provide the study showing the incidence in the last forty years of rheumatic fever in the developed world in both patients who took antibiotics for strep and those who didn’t.

          • shay simmons

            You’re claiming there’s a big difference, parker, it’s up to you to prove it.

          • Acleron

            Good point.

          • ciaparker2

            Rheumatic fever as a result of strep infection has become very rare, with or without antibiotics. All sources agree that waiting until the third or fourth day of symptoms before starting to take the antibiotic poses very little risk of complications, but allows the body to make antibodies which will provide permanent immunity to strep throat/scarlet fever. All patients shouid be told this and be allowed to make their own choice. Instant relief and many future episodes of strep and antibiotic dependence, or wait a few days, take the antibiotic, and then never get strep again.

          • MaineJen

            You have NO IDEA what you’re talking about, Cia.

          • Mishimoo

            Tell that to the kids in remote communities who have their lives ruined by rheumatic fever complications…oh wait, they’re not white so you probably don’t believe they exist (let alone care about their wasted potential).

          • MaineJen

            Oh TCAMN, she doesn’t know what “cross react” means.

          • ciaparker2

            I found that it made a big come-back last year in China and the UK. Kind of interesting, twice as many cases in the UK as in China. I couldn’t find anything about its having come back in the US, just a lot of general articles, nothing about anything happening here now. One article said that six diseases were coming back here, measles, mumps, pertussis, scarlet fever, tuberculosis, and bubonic plague. Don’t know what to say. I’ve never known or heard of anyone who got any of the last three (in recent history). My great-grandmother in Posen, Prussia, left because both her parents and several of her siblings had died of T.B., and the doctor said she should move to a warm climate. So she moved to Houston, Texas, then Taylor. The first a blazing, humid, mosquito-ridden, tropical hell, and the second hot and dry. I would love to ask her how she managed in her crinoline and corset in 110 degree sodden Houston summers. She didn’t die of TB at any rate.

            I saw photos of a child with scarlet fever in Glockler’s book. I wish C would go ahead and get either it or strep throat, get it over with. M’s daughter P (the one who studied translation in Brussels last year) got strep throat six or seven years ago, when she was twelve, I think. I had it when C was four. Strep throat. Again, I’ve never heard of anyone’s getting scarlet fever here. I wish my parents were still alive so I could ask them about what they knew about it. The little boy in The Velveteen Bunny almost died of it, but that was a UK book.

            Did you see what I posted a few weeks ago from our speech therapist? Her husband is a doctor, and said that all the authorities at the Med Center had conferred at this new outbreak of mumps (seems like it happens every winter now, in a fully-vaxxed population). Very amusing. They said that it would do more harm than good to make doctors and professors take a third MMR (I wish they had elaborated on the “harm”), but they were going to recommend that all STUDENTS go ahead and get a third one. Wish C could get it.

            I just put up a lot of studies in one of my chickenpox comments (I added it in, so it wouldn’t get disappeared) which showed that the chickenpox vaccine has caused a huge increase of shingles in adults, at a tremendous cost in hospital care. That it was irresponsible to vax children since they always knew that this would be the price. I read a few years ago that 100 people a year in the UK died of shingles. Would be many more than that here, and sort of outbalances the small number who used to die of chickenpox.

            And you know perfectly well that vaccine damage is very common, damaging a full 50% of American children. I hesitate to guess how many over there.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            At the risk of boring those here who’ve heard the story before, my grandmother had scarlet fever.
            She recovered from it, too, being a rather healthy 12-year-old.
            Of course, it did cost her her hearing, and, as a result, her opportunity to attend high school, any career she might have had (no one hired deaf people back then, so she worked in a sewing sweatshop), quite likely much in the way of happiness (married the first guy who was interested so that she would have a roof over her head; he was a sadistic drunk).
            But hey, at least she didn’t take antibiotics for it! Goodness knows what sort of harm they might have caused!

          • FallsAngel

            Your story is not boring in the least. It bears repeating.

          • FallsAngel

            Why the H*E*double hockey stick would you want your kid to get scarlet fever and strep? You don’t get permanent immunity from either.
            http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Scarlet-fever/Pages/Introduction.aspx

            You are lying about the shingles/chickenpox vaccine connection. No one knows why shingles is increasing in adults.
            https://www.cdc.gov/shingles/surveillance.html
            “One popular explanation, now thought unlikely, is that the increase
            in shingles might be related to fewer chickenpox cases in United States children due to widespread vaccination against chickenpox. It is suggested that exposure to chickenpox disease may boost a person’s immunity to the varicella-zoster virus (VZV) and reduce risk for VZV reactivation in the form of shingles. Therefore, less exposure to children with chickenpox could in theory lead to an increase in shinglesin adults. However, this proposed explanation seems unlikely based on two CDC studies which found that shingles rates:
            started increasing before chickenpox vaccine was introduced in the United States, and
            did not increase faster after the routine chickenpox vaccination program started.
            Other countries without routine chickenpox vaccination programs, have observed similar increases in shingles rates.”

            Furthermore, most people with shingles are not hospitalized.

            Just take your daughter over to MU and expose her to mumps. I’m sure you’ll find it a lot of fun. Hopefully she won’t lose her hearing.

            What a lying liar you are!

          • ciaparker2

            You DO get permanent immunity, but you have to give your immune system a few days to fight it naturally before you start taking the antibiotic. If you run to the doctor and start taking the antibiotic right away, then your immune system has not had enough time to make antibodies, and yes, then you CAN get it over and over.

            I know most people with shingles are not hospitalized: I’ve had it twice, and my friend M had a bad case with severe pain lasting a year. We were not hospitalized, however. But many people are, and a certain number die of shingles.

            I WOULD take her to MU if I knew where there was anyone with mumps. But it’s a big campus, and there aren’t many cases of mumps, they just like to work themselves into a frenzy when there are a piddling few cases. Who all make a complete recovery very quickly. It’s a yearly thing now since the first outbreak in 2006. We were on campus this morning, but I doubt is we were exposed to the mumps virus.

          • FallsAngel

            No, you don’t get permanent immunity from either SF or strep throat. All my sources say it’s unusual to get SF a second time, but it can happen. Quit lying. And quit blaming parents.

          • FallsAngel

            Quit lying about the “shingles epidemic”. No one but you is calling it an epidemic.

            This response of yours “no one did when I was growing up” which you apply to many different diseases is nonsense. You don’t know the medical histories of everyone you grew up with. Not everyone broadcast every illness to the community. Plus, you were a child! Do you really think that you were told everything that was going on? Of course not. Your anecdote means nothing! Shingles is not a new disease. I saw patients with it long before the vaccine. It’s entirely possible that if you asked around, you’d find a lot of people who’d had it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Does anyone know how long it really takes to form an antibody to a novel antigen? I have the idea that the answer is longer than “a few days”, but I can’t find the reference I was thinking of (examination of how long it took to form antibodies against Rh in deliberately exposed people–yeah, that one should never have flown with an IRB but apparently it did).

          • Acleron

            We always reckoned on 5 days for appearance of measurable amounts of Ab but more modern methods could easily detect it earlier. Interestingly it seemed about the same in man, horses, goats, sheep and mice.

          • Mike Stevens

            IgM antibodies appear within about 5-10 days for most infections.
            Those aren’t the ones that confer longer term immunity though, those would be the IgG antibodies, which take a little longer.
            And then there are different targets for the antibody response… Eg is it against streptolysin, the bacterial components, or exotoxin?

          • shay simmons

            You DO get permanent immunity

            From strep throat? On what planet?

          • ciaparker2

            As I just said, when I went to a doctor with strep throat when my daughter was four, the nurse said surely not, I was unlikely to have strep because all adults have had it when they were younger and gotten permanent immunity. Again, the problem is that if you start taking antibiotics too soon after the beginning of symptoms, then your body hasn’t had enough time to make antibodies to the germs. And so it WILL get strep again if exposed to it again.

          • Azuran

            Ah, so if a medical professional tells you something that you like, it’s true. But if they tell you something you don’t like, they are lying and hiding the truth.

          • shay simmons

            The nurse — assuming you didn’t misinterpret her comment — was wrong.

            https://www.verywell.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-strep-throat-1191987

            There is no permanent immunity to strep throat.

          • FallsAngel

            It’s true that adults don’t get strep as often as school age kids for reasons unknown, but every nurse knows strep does not give permanent immunity.

          • momofone

            I had it over and over, from early childhood until I had my tonsils removed in my early twenties, so plenty of time for the magical immune response that should’ve taken place. I’ve only had it a couple times in the two-plus decades since, and got it from my son each time.

          • shay simmons

            I WOULD take her to MU if I knew where there was anyone with mumps.

            http://patient.info/health/mumps-leaflet

          • Mike Stevens

            Poor child, to have a mother who denies her vaccines and deliberately exposes her to all manner of infections.
            She is fortunate that so far she has been lucky, and not come to any great harm.

          • ciaparker2

            She is as healthy as a horse because not only was she breastfed for years, but she had pertussis and chickenpox, several flus, including H1N1, many colds and feverish illnesses when she was little, and the polio relation EV-68. Also several cases of bronchitis over the years. But she hasn’t had any illness since the EV-68 two and a half years ago.

          • Azuran

            She’s healthy as a horse!!!! she got ALL THOSE DISEASES!!!!
            Do you have some special personal meaning for the word ‘healthy’? Because I don’t think you know what it means.
            Honestly, Jesus that’s a lot of illness for a healthy person. I was breastfed 1-2 months. As a child I Got CP (only childhood vaccine I wasn’t vaccinated for) and gastro one time. In the last 15 years I got a possible flu twice.
            I appear to be much more healthy than your daughter
            (Also, you might be interested to know that horses are actually frail little things. We are weak AF and get complication all the time whenever they get sick.)

          • Mike Stevens

            That’s healthy?
            Unbelievable….

          • shay simmons

            She is as healthy as a horse because not only was she breastfed for years, but she had pertussis and chickenpox, several flus, including H1N1, many colds and feverish illnesses when she was little, and the polio relation EV-68. Also several cases of bronchitis over the years

            You don’t even see the problem here, do you?

          • The very picture of poor health!

          • shay simmons

            Nobody listens to you…you were dropped on your head as an adult!

            Comment va la caboche, btw?

          • Better than my car, at the moment. Lost my accessory belt tonight, so I parked it at the mechanic’s and left a key. The alternator was glowing when I pulled over, too, so I’m dreading the bill.

          • EEJIT

            You left a key? Gee Ken you might lose your car UNLESS you left the key WITH the mechanic,yes could be expensive.

          • I might have hit my head, but my brains didn’t fall out! I put it in the key drop. 😉

          • EEJIT

            Sorry not implying you lost your brains,I meant that you possibly forgot them in the ignition,YES I have done it.

          • Oh, I once locked my keys in the car at a motel in New Jersey. In the ignition. With the engine running.

          • Polak

            I can top that my wife double parked to let me out in front of my doctors surgery,she came out to help me,the drivers door closed in the locked position with engine running,took 40 minutes for our road service people to come to unlock the door.I can assure you we were not very popular.

          • Ooooh, not fun! I’ve taken to carrying two keys with me at all times. I used to use one of those magnetic boxes, but I just don’t like the idea of leaving a key attached to my car, unattended and accessible 24/7.

          • Polak

            Yeah I used to do that and actually it saved me once when I locked the keys in the boot YEAH in the boot.Wish I had it at the doctors,EMBARASSMENT

          • I’ve almost done that quite a few times, actually! It’s hard to train myself to never put the keys down.

          • Polak

            Changing my name to Polak, just to upset Ron and Sue

          • shay simmons

            You and Jennie are driving the rest of us crazy, you know that!

          • Polak

            You know it’s for a good cause,I love stirring up Ron and Sue.

          • shay simmons

            Ouch.

          • Could be worse! I priced out new alternators and it’s not the catastrophe I was nervous about.

          • shay simmons

            The last time I needed Sarge serviced was for a mice infestation (no kidding) and fortunately our insurance adjuster decided that this was covered.

            I was told by the mechanic that a few years ago GM decided to replace the protection on engine wires from a petroleum-based to a soy-based coating.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/88c43b7ae5764d2df49dcb20531575337c75c81413c0dff741d508a690d4640f.jpg

          • moto_librarian

            You know what? cia is a bad parent. Anyone who would rather let their child suffer from whooping cough, the flu, and chickenpox rather than vaccinate is a sadistic, cruel person.

          • moto_librarian

            Congratulations, genius! Yeah, she’s really healthy other than having suffered through pertussis, chickenpox, H1N1, other strains of flu, and bronchitis. Sounds like all that extended tit-feeding was great protection. I hope for her sake that she doesn’t develop asthma as a result of lung damage.

          • ciaparker2

            Children HAVE to go through many contagious illnesses to build their immune systems. My daughter hasn’t had any illness in two years. Because now she has achieved a strong and healthy immune system which will protect her for life.

          • moto_librarian

            She doesn’t have lifelong immunity to whooping cough. She’s also now at risk for the shingles. But please, blather on about lifelong immunity when you clearly know nothing about immunology.

          • MaineJen

            …until she’s exposed to measles or rubella

          • Heidi_storage
          • Heidi_storage

            Your definition of healthy is that she’s caught oodles of illnesses that people rarely contract nowadays? That’s…interesting.

          • moto_librarian

            Was H1N1 confirmed by a lab test? If so, did you even bother to ask about TamiFlu?

          • As healthy as a…chronically sick horse?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            if memory serves, i think horses are actually kind of delicate

          • Who?

            Never mind-you might get lucky and have her fall ill again.

            That’s desirable, right?

          • ciaparker2

            It is desirable to be sick from time to time. I’m sure you’ve read how much more common cancer is in those who haven’t had a cold in several years. Illness in most cases keeps the immune system up to snuff and gives it needed exercise and practice.

          • Who?

            So has the last couple of years put your daughter at increased risk of cancer? Goodness it’s fulltime isn’t it, infecting her, neglecting her when she’s ill, then fretting she isn’t getting sick again.

            Poor young woman.

          • shay simmons

            “My parents never had it, as no one did when I was growing up”

            This seems to be your litmus test — if it didn’t happen to you or someone you know, it doesn’t exist.

          • Mike Stevens

            You are lying about chickenpox and shingles, but you already know that, don’t you Cia?

          • shay simmons

            Crinolines went out of style in the early 1870’s (they were replaced by the bustle). How old, exactly, was your great-grandmother when she emigrated?

          • MaineJen

            “I saw photos of a child with scarlet fever in Glockler’s book. I wish C would go ahead and get either it or strep throat, get it over with.”

            I could show you some photos that would make you spill your essential oils.

            The more I read about your cavalier attitude toward this, the more I think that you just can’t be real. It’s not possible that you are a real human being and that you would wish that on your child.

          • ciaparker2

            Found this:

            Scarlet fever, which typically affects children aged 2 to 10 years, is rare due to exposure to S pyogenes by 10 years of age in most children. – See more at:
            https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/scarlet-fever#sthash.MTdUdEOv.dpuf

            So like with meningitis, nearly everyone develops immunity from sub-clinical exposure. I also read that it hasn’t been a notifiable disease in the US since 1970.

            So why would it be making a come-back in the UK? What about Scandinavia and the Continent (where fewer vaccines are requested)? Why wouldn’t young people there have developed immunity to S. pyogenes by the age of 10? (Bet the vaccine and drug epidemics are the cause.) Has the pathogen mutated? Most kids now DO have a much weaker immune system than they used to, gotta fight those natural diseases while you’re growing up to get a strong, flexible immune system for life.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you found a citation from 2008 saying scarlet fever is rare. Good for you. With the entire internet at your disposal, that wasn’t hard.

            But my point is that you said it was “very rarely seen”, which is clearly contradicted by the evidence of the recent surge in cases in the UK and elsewhere.
            The US has not kept data on it since 1970, so you won’t be able to use their info, will you?

            Leave it be Cia.
            I prefer it when you tell us about what quackery nostrums you are using to cure yourself…
            …When you pretend to be a doctor…not so much.

          • ciaparker2

            I think it is rare in the US. It seems to have come back in China and the UK, and it would be interesting to know why. Í looked in up in several books on natural health care, some from the US, one from the UK, one from Germany, and one from Italy. One book said that “strep throat” is not part of everyday language in the UK. But it is here. The book said that in the UK it was just called a sore throat. I’d like to know to what extent that’s true. Here many parenting magazines have frequent articles on how to distinguish a plain sore throat (one day, then a cold) from strep throat (much more serious). My US books had sections on strep throat, but not scarlet fever, and the European books had sections on scarlet fever, but not on strep throat. I’d like to know the reason for the rash and red tongue occurring fairly often there, but not here (or there would have been sections on it in the American books). You mentioned two or three years ago that scarlet fever had become much more common in the UK recently. So it’s been several years.
            I assume its not being a reportable disease means that it is not considered very important, maybe because it’s rare, maybe because it’s so easy to treat, which seems strange when they make such a fuss over chickenpox or mumps. It was the biggest killer of children in Europe for a few decades in the nineteenth century. I read one article yesterday that thought that this high death rate was because they were misdiagnosing it, saying it was scarlet fever when it was really something more serious. One of the doctors who wrote Healthy Child, Whole Child, said that his aunt died of it as a child in the thirties. The real reason is that it became less virulent on its own, like measles and pertussis. Several articles I looked at yesterday, like those from The Healthy Home Economist, talked about choosing to go through strep throat without antibiotics, and they did so.. So it’s not as dangerous a disease now as it was before. Very condescending to always assume that things before were just the same as they are now.
            I am genuinely interested in the topic, and am conversing politely. Are you?

          • maidmarian555

            No. The UK is not some funny little backwater where doctors don’t know the difference between scarlet fever and strep throat. Slightly different symptoms actually. Definitely making a comeback. Outbreaks in a number of regions, including where I live. Fun times having outbreaks of Victorian illnesses. Or, you know, NOT FUN AT ALL for the kids that get a disease we can’t protect them against with a vaccine.

          • ciaparker2

            Why so hostile? I did not question that it’s making a comeback in the UK. Why would that be? Again, not questioning that it has. Maybe no reason but the pathogen’s own natural history. Or maybe there’s a reason.

          • maidmarian555

            You said:

            “One book said that “strep throat” is not part of everyday language in the UK. But it is here. The book said that in the UK it was just called a sore throat. I’d like to know to what extent that’s true. Here many parenting magazines have frequent articles on how to distinguish a plain sore throat (one day, then a cold) from strep throat (much more serious). ”

            That infers we aren’t capable of understanding the difference between strep and a ‘sore throat’ here. Scarlet Fever is another box of delights entirely. We aren’t so dumb we can’t tell the difference.

          • ciaparker2

            I’ve never lived in the UK and haven’t heard people talk about it. I thought it might mean that for whatever reason scarlet fever was a lot more common there than it is here. It’s not common here, and I’ve never heard of anyone here having it. Do you have a UK book on child care which discusses strep throat as well as scarlet fever?

          • maidmarian555

            Nope. Not sure what it would prove if I personally had such a book though…. I am one person, not exactly indicative of the medical knowledge of an entire country. I’m not a doctor (have already mentioned this) so don’t have a house full of medical textbooks. Did have a Facebook feed full of friends lamenting the fact their kids had Scarlet Fever last year though. And the year before…..

          • ciaparker2

            So the appropriate next step would be to observe how long after the appearance of symptoms they started taking antibiotics. Find someone who waited three or four days and see if they get scarlet fever, or strep, again. Maybe they would: it may be that it has become the new norm to have weak immune systems. Many people have said, however, that by waiting several days and giving their immune systems time to make antibodies, that they never got strep (or scarlet fever) again. But we won’t know until a correctly designed study is done to look at the difference in these scenarios. When I went to the doctor with strep when my daughter was four, the nurse said surely I didn’t have strep, as adults have nearly always gotten it (and permanent immunity) when they were younger.

          • maidmarian555

            My friends just took their kids to the doctor and got advice and appropriate treatment that way. I don’t think any of them considered getting advice online from people who, not five minutes before, were saying they’d never seen nor heard of a case in their local area before dispensing medical advice on how to treat the same illness when it can have fairly serious long-term repercussions…….

            I also know people that’ve been diagnosed with strep here. Our doctors do know what that is and how to treat it. You can’t learn *everything* from random books you know. They can’t teach you everything, even if you are smart.

          • ciaparker2

            So what does it mean that most child care books here all have a section on strep throat but none on scarlet fever, and the European books I have have sections on scarlet fever, but not strep throat?
            And again, everyone has to go through a learning curve. It looks as though allopathic medicine has successfully created the belief that you need to take the antibiotic as soon as possible, and no one ever gets permanent immunity to strep/scarlet fever anyway, no matter what they do. Eventually some people will read sites like The Healthy Homemaker and many others, and give the idea of waiting a few days a try. And then they get permanent immunity while others get it over and over.

          • shay simmons

            And again, everyone has to go through a learning curve.

            Intelligent people listen to medical professionals who have already been through that learning curve.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, I really don’t care if they pat themselves on the back and then bemoan the fact that they get strep over and over and over.

          • shay simmons

            Their outcomes are far more likely to be positive than anyone who listens to a completely unqualified non-professional like yourself.

          • Empliau

            My mother had scarlet fever. Her immune system undoubtedly had maximum chance to respond to it, as she had it, and the rheumatic fever which followed it, before antibiotics were available. (Yes, my mom is old.) She also has a severe mitral valve prolapse that has been just tons of fun over the decades since: thank you, rheumatic fever! She has also had more than one lab-confirmed strep throat since then. No lifetime immunity, and it can’t be blamed on antibiotics. My n=1 disproves your contention. Don’t do this to your child.

          • ciaparker2

            I have said many times that the major killers of children in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in the US and UK were diphtheria, scarlet fever, measles, and pertussis. (Smallpox until 1897, after which the disease became less virulent.) I said the other day that one of the aunts of a doctor writing the child care book Whole Child, Healthy Child, died of scarlet fever in the ’30s. It was a very common and very serious disease at that time. Since that time, it, like measles and pertussis, has evolved to become much less dangerous, at the same time that nutrition, sanitation, and general living conditions have improved, strengthening resistance to the diseases.

            You cannot make decisions in 2017 based on what was true before before 1945. At this time, strep throat and scarlet fever are much less dangerous than they used to be, with or without antibiotics. Those who are immunocompromised are in a more difficult situation and must research the issue carefully before making decision. Those who are not immunocompromised may make a reasoned decision to not take antibiotics to treat strep throat, and will probably develop permanent immunity after one bout. A reasonable compromise would be to wait three or four days after the onset of symptoms before starting to take the antibiotic. It does not increase risk of complications, and gives the immune system time to make antibodies to confer probably permanent immunity. Taking antibiotics right away sets the patient up for getting recurrent cases of strep throat.

            A patient with either condition must be kept in bed and monitored, for at least three weeks. With or without antibiotics, a doctor should be kept informed of the course of the illness.

            I just put up a quotation from a science site explaining the probable reasons why rheumatic fever as a sequel of strep throat/scarlet fever has become very rare, with or without antibiotics. Different strains of the disease have become more prevalent. That is probably also the reason why scarlet fever has become common again in the UK and China: different strains of the disease.

          • moto_librarian

            Do us all a favor and Google “penicillin.” You might find that the date of its discovery has obvious bearing on this discussion.

          • MaineJen

            So *all* of these diseases just magically ‘evolved’ to be less deadly, all at the same time? WOW. You write like someone who skimmed a bunch of articles about immunology and infectious disease without really understanding them.

            Again I ask: where do you get off giving any kind of medical advice?

          • Heidi

            Kept in bed for three weeks for strep throat?! I can’t imagine missing three weeks of school for strep throat! I remember missing maybe 2 days of school for it?

          • Nick Sanders

            A reasonable compromise would be to wait three or four days after the onset of symptoms before starting to take the antibiotic.

            By your definition or “reasonable”, maybe, but not anyone else’s.

          • Simone Reilly

            I hope you die soon, nick

          • maidmarian555

            Yeah I still think if we get Scarlet Fever in this house that we’ll go and see the GP. Who will know what it is because (as I’ve already stated) doctors in this country know about Scarlet Fever, Strep and sore throats. I am a big fan of Dr Amy and the other commenters here. I would still get specific medical advice from my own GP. That’s not being disrespectful, it’s about using my brain and not assuming that because I read a convincing argument by an anonymous poster on a blog that I like that I should stop getting medical advice from conventional sources……

            I can’t tell you what medical textbooks or childcare books say about these illnesses in the UK. All I know is that we have doctors that know what these illnesses are and how to treat them. Your books won’t give you the kind of training and education the average UK GP gets. Sorry.

          • FallsAngel

            “So what does it mean that most child care books here all have a section on strep throat but none on scarlet fever, and the European books I have have sections on scarlet fever, but not strep throat?”
            Probably that Americans are quicker to take their kids to the doctor for sore throats. Not making a judgement here, just saying, a difference in parenting practices.

            “And again, everyone has to go through a learning curve.”
            Yes, and you are at the very bottom.

            “Eventually some people will read sites like The Healthy Homemaker and many others”
            I have several friends who were Home Economics majors in college. They, like me, get their medical advice from medical professionals.

          • momofone

            Unfortunately the nurse was wrong.

          • momofone

            You equate not having heard of anyone having it with it not being common. That’s flawed.

          • ciaparker2

            So give me some data. I looked but was unable to find any figures on how common scarlet fever was in the US. I found that it has not been a notifiable disease since 1970, which I think means that it has not been common since then or it would still be notifiable. It’s also flawed to just say with no evidence that, since it has become much more common in the UK recently, that that MUST mean that it’s become more common here as well. How common was It in the UK before the current increase? Has it increased in France? Germany? If so, why has it not been reported, and if not, then why not?

            Strep throat has been common here for at least several decades, I can’t say more than that. Again, never knew and never heard of anyone getting scarlet fever here. Obviously some have, but I don’t know how many or when these cases occurred. I read a book by Madeleine L”Engle, The Moon by Night, I think, with a character who had had scarlet fever and rheumatic fever, written in the early ’60s.

            If you have data, please share it rather than trying to mock every single word out of my mouth. That’s REALLY flawed, though I know it’s in your brief.

          • momofone

            Show me your data. You claim it’s “not common,” yet you don’t back it up. Conspiracy websites don’t count.

          • ciaparker2

            You think there’s a conspiracy to suppress all reports of scarlet fever here in the US? If it were common, there would be articles in magazines about it, sections in books on natural health care and child care. I found one entry in an American book by Mary Bove (Gaia). People would talk about it, you’d hear that so-and-so’s child had scarlet fever last week. You hear that people get strep throat, but I”ve never heard of anyone getting scarlet fever here.

            Are you going to try to say that bubonic plague is common here too? I found one article that said that bubonic plague was occurring again in the US (like two or three cases in Colorado). Is that common? Is it really common but there are no reports or articles about it? I don’t know, but that’s what I would call a conspiracy theory.

            So you look. Find out if scarlet fever is common in the US. Please give links if you find out that it is. If you can’t find anything, that’s prima facie evidence that it’s not common here.

          • momofone

            No, I think you are drawn to conspiracy theories and are unable to distinguish between those and credible sources.

          • Mike Stevens

            Scarlet fever is not likely to be common in the USA. The CDC stopped notifications for it in 1970, so it is unclear how common or rare it is.
            The fact that you are unaware of anyone with it means little… You have encountered dozens of people on line who have told you they have never seen a serious vaccine reaction too, yet that didn’t make you suddenly conclude it must be very rare, did it?

            Recall your original generalisation was that scarlet fever was “very rare”.
            I posted evidence that the UK had seen 1300 cases a week, making it not a condition I would call “very rare”.
            Yet you still refuse to accept it is making a comeback.
            Why? Because you claimed it disappeared because of improved hygeine etc (so admitting it has come back would somewhat burst your balloon, wouldn’t it?)

            PS: Can you give us an idea of the frequencies you use to decide something is “rare”, or “common”, Cia? Is “rare” one in a thousand, or a million? Is “common” one in four, or one in ten?
            You refuse to tell us, and I wonder why not?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i have never met a congenitally blind child. Therefore, they don’t exist. Or I could believe my blind adult friends who assure me they were blind toddlers. Some of them are only barely in their early 20s. *eyeroll*

          • Mike Stevens

            Why do you say measles became less virulent, when the USA data on 65,000 cases up to 2000 showed one in 330 died and one in 1000 got encephalitis (compared to fatality rates of one in 5000 or so in the 1960s?
            Are you aware that in 2011 in France there were 10,000 cases over 6 months, with Many deaths?
            Here is the French data from 2008-2011:
            “Although few measles cases were reported in France during 2006 and 2007, suggesting the country might have been close to eliminating the disease, a dramatic outbreak of >20,000 cases occurred during 2008–2011. Adolescents and young adults accounted for more than half of cases; median patient age increased from 12 to 16 years during the outbreak. The highest incidence rate was observed in children <1 year of age, reaching 135 cases/100,000 infants during the last epidemic wave. Almost 5,000 patients were hospitalized, including 1,023 for severe pneumonia and 27 for encephalitis/myelitis; 10 patients died. More than 80% of the cases during this period occurred in unvaccinated persons, reflecting heterogeneous vaccination coverage, where pockets of susceptible persons still remain. "
            https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/19/3/12-1360_article

            That’s a death rate of one in 2000, and encephalitis rate of one in 750, compared to your notion that encephalitis rates were 1:10,000 according to your quack source in the 1960s.

            How is that in any way less virulent?

          • ciaparker2

            In 1960 in the US the mortality from measles was one in 10,000 cases. In the UK in the ’80s, one or two in 10,000 cases. In Europe five years ago, three in 10,000 cases. I’d say that a figure of one in 330 is either lying or it shows how weak our children’s immune systems have become from the onslaught of vaccines, antibiotics, and pharma drugs they are battered with from birth. In the Disney outbreak two years ago, several hundred got it, and there were no deaths. Except possibly that severely immunocompromised woman who seems to have caught measles at a clinic, even though she was vaxxed for measles and should have been “protected.” In the UK, the same. In the Swansea measles outbreak, what was it? 900 got measles, only one death, a severely immunocompromised adult man, who had asthma, and was turned away by the doctor he asked to hospitalize him a few hours before he died of pneumonia alone in his flat. His mother said HE had gotten the measles vaccine and should have been protected.

            So, again, people have the choice of protecting their children’s health by refusing most or all vaccines and avoiding antibiotics and drugs whenever possible, and letting their children’s immune systems become strong from learning to deal with ordinary germs the natural way, or letting them sink into chronic ill health and disease by following the mainstream advice. And no, I don’t advocate leaving children with dehydration or difficulty breathing alone to cope with it: such cases should get conventional medical care.

          • Mike Stevens

            You lie Cia.
            Official notification data confirm measles has NOT got less virulent at all.
            Just accept the facts and cut out with the pathological lies.

            The young man who died in the Welsh measles outbreak was unvaccinated, as I have proven to you before.
            “He told his doctor he could not remember if he had received an MMR vaccination as a child and there was no record at the surgery of him having had it.”
            http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699
            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2352740/Father-died-measles-South-Wales-outbreak-inoculated-disease-child.html

            STOP LYING.

          • FallsAngel

            No, several hundred people did not get measles in the Disney outbreak, cia. The total was about 160, I believe. ~20% were hospitalized, and one does not get hospitalized here in the US unless one is seriously ill and needs care that cannot be done at home. The woman who died in Washington state was part of a different outbreak. She was immunocompromised, cia, the classic situation we talk about when jerky AVs ask “If your kids are vaccinated, why do you care that mine aren’t, nanny, nanny, boo boo”.

          • EEJIT

            http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-history-in-america.aspx Before measles vaccine was licensed in 1963, the CDC admits there was
            massive underreporting of measles cases and that “because virtually all
            children acquired measles, the number of measles cases probably
            approached 3.5 million per year (.i.e., an entire birth cohort).”,6,7
            Other doctors say it was more like 5 million cases of measles occurring
            every year. 22 In 1960, three years before the first measles vaccine
            was put on the market in the U.S., there were about 442,000 reported
            measles cases and 380 related deaths,8,9 among 3.5 to 5 million Americans.

          • moto_librarian

            Again, dumbass, better medical care for those with severe cases and secondary infections.

          • ciaparker2

            Only antibiotics for bacterial complications, which most cases of measles don’t have. So how do you account for the fact that sixty years ago in the US, at a time when 99% of children got measles, the death rate was one in 10,000 cases, and now it is higher than that? Mike put up something which said one in 300 some-odd cases, a thirty-fold increase, but that’s either a pharma lie or evidence that overreliance on vaccines, antibiotics, and other drugs has destroyed the immune systems of our children.

          • moto_librarian

            You are a bad mother. Shame on you for letting your child suffer from whooping cough, flu, and chicken pox.

          • ciaparker2

            So you’d rather she join the ranks of the majority of over-vaxxed, overmedicated American children and suffer from chronic autoimmune disease: asthma, respiratory, food, or skin allergies, or diabetes? Asthma in one in nine (highest rate ever), allergies one in two (peanut allergies one in fifty), diabetes one in 200 now, I think.

            Instead, she hasn’t had any illness in two years and has no autoimmune disease. No asthma, no allergies. Nothing. It would be better if she DID get at least a cold or flu so as to keep up her immune system.

            And she actually GOT the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, but because it’s a miserably ineffective vaccine to start with, and because infants just don’t get protection from vaccines because their immune system hasn’t developed enough yet, my baby got pertussis at a La Leche League meeting when she was eight months old (and gave it to me). But by that age it’s not dangerous, just a pain and long-lasting. I wish now that I hadn’t let her get any pertussis shots so she would have gotten permanent immunity after having the disease, but I was uninformed. And very unaware, it didn’t occur to me that it might be dangerous to take her to a La Leche League meeting with me.

            The mothers buying into this pharma crap aren’t bad mothers, but they’re gullible, uninformed mothers who have accidentally damaged their children for life.

          • moto_librarian

            My kids have never had whooping cough, the flu, or the chicken pox. Neither one of them takes any medication on a daily basis. Neither one is diabetic (helpful hint: most kids don’t have Type II diabetes), no allergies, no asthma. This despite being formula fed and having a mother with severe asthma that was caused by a severe bout of pneumonia when she was 5 years old.

          • ciaparker2

            But will they wind up dying of cancer, as half of Americans do now? Getting the childhood diseases as a child and feverish illnesses as an adult greatly reduces cancer incidence.

            Other than that, it’s playing the odds. Unvaxxed children as a group are healthier than vaxxed ones.

          • moto_librarian

            Yeah, when the average life expectancy is 78.74 years, you live long enough to die of something like cancer. As opposed to dying before age 5 of something like pertussis, polio, or the measles.

          • moto_librarian

            By the way, 39.6% of adults will be diagnosed with cancer. That’s not half.

          • momofone

            “Getting the childhood diseases as a child and feverish illnesses as an adult greatly reduces cancer incidence.”

            I’d like to see your sources for this. As I’ve pointed out before, I had the childhood diseases, and a miserable case of chicken pox, including febrile seizures. Amazingly I still developed cancer. Is it possible that improvements in health care have allowed many people to survive other illnesses long enough to develop cancer? (Mine was different in that I was young and it was caused by a now-known mutation in my family.)

          • Dr Kitty

            Cia, what would you like to die of should you reach the age of 85?

            Your choices basically boil down to heart attack and stroke (and advances in the last 25 years make that less likely), chronic lung disease if you smoke, cancer, dementia, pneumonia due to frailty or breaking a hip and lying on a floor for days before being found.

            Me, I’d personally rather die of cancer and have time to get my affairs in order and have a good death I had prepared for with midazolam and morphine running in a syringe driver and my family around me.

            A sudden death from a heart attack or stroke would deny me and my family closure and I would hate to die with dementia or alone after becoming frail and lonely.

            Obviously, YMMV, but it is pointless to pretend that you’ll live forever or that the alternatives to dying from cancer are much better. We’ve all got to die from something eventually.

          • ciaparker2

            No question. A heart attack. Which Is probably what I’ll have. The idea of dying of cancer horrifies me. No one in my family has had cancer other than easily treated skin cancers, so I may have genetic protection from it.

          • Mike Stevens

            “A heart attack. Which Is probably what I’ll have.”

            There is something you can do to prevent even that Cia, something which will be just as helpful as would be stopping smoking, controlling blood pressure and taking statins…
            http://heart.bmj.com/content/early/2016/09/29/heartjnl-2016-309983

            There is a large body of observational and clinical trial evidence that shows that influenza vaccine protects against AMI. Estimates of the efficacy of influenza vaccine in preventing AMI range from 15% to 45%. This is a similar range of efficacy compared with the accepted routine coronary prevention measures such as smoking cessation (32–43%), statins (19–30%) and antihypertensive therapy (17–25%). Influenza vaccine should be considered as an integral part of CVD management and prevention.

          • Dr Kitty

            Well, don’t take aspirin or statins, don’t treat your high blood pressure and take up smoking at the age of 80 and you’ll probably get your wish.

            Although I’ve seen enough fatal heart attacks to know that unless it was a massive and instantly fatal LAD obstruction, you are looking at a very painful and frightening death, probably with a period of angina and increasing fatigue first, maybe after a few minor heart attacks or strokes first.

            I’d much prefer to float away on a cloud of morphine after saying my goodbyes, finalising my will and making funeral arrangements. Of course, I live in the land of the NHS where whatever happens I won’t stick my loved one with medical debts.

            Relatives tend to adjust better after expected bereavements than sudden deaths, and I’d want to spare my family as much as possible too.

          • Who?

            I think we all know that cia has never heard of a heart attack going as you describe, and therefore won’t believe what you have to say on the subject.

            And she is documented as revelling in her family members’ suffering.

          • MaineJen

            “Genetic protection” from cancer?

            You have no knowledge of genetics or cancer.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Unvaxxed children as a group are healthier than vaxxed ones.”
            Citations needed.
            All available published evidence suggests the opposite is the case.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, Sweet Jesus, cia! Mike tore up that measles as a vaccine preventive study of yours months ago. You act like cancer is something new!

          • Mike Stevens

            “Getting the childhood diseases as a child and feverish illnesses as an adult greatly reduces cancer incidence.”

            No… Getting the diseases as a child reduced cancer incidence, because it increased child mortality.
            Living through to old age (thanks to vaccinations and medical advances) is the reason you see more cancer now. It is primarily a degenerative disease (although there are some forms of cancer which are caused by oncogenic viruses, which fortunately you can be vaccinated against!)

          • momofone

            “But by that age it’s not dangerous, just a pain….”

            Tell that to my friend whose eight-month-old daughter died of it.

          • FallsAngel

            ” So how do you account for the fact that sixty years ago in the US, at a
            time when 99% of children got measles, the death rate was one in 10,000
            cases, and now it is higher than that?”

            It’s MORE virulent, not less by that reckoning. Actually, I believe more babies get it now (percentagewise) than did pre-vaccine.

          • Acleron

            France is the country that Ullman claims has the best healthcare because of homeopathy. I wonder if that has anything to do with the unvaccinated rate.

          • Mike Stevens

            And probably why the complication rates and deaths were higher.
            100C Bryonium doesn’t do much for pneumonia.

          • MaineJen

            GAAAAAAAAA

          • Dr Kitty

            Several reasons.
            It remains notifiable in the U.K., by notification is only on clinical diagnosis, not on lab tests. I notify for anyone with the classical rash or strawberry tongue, as well as positive swabs. The increase in rate may be partially due to false positives.

            By pushing AGAINST the use of antibiotics for most sore throats, which are viral, and encouraging self care at home, we’re not seeing and swabbing strep throats in the early stages, but only once the rash and strawberry tongue or a clinical tonsillitis develops.

            I rarely send throats swabs myself- the lab turnaround is too slow to be clinically helpful. If it looks like strep throat or scarlet fever I’ll give antibiotics, because my priority it to keep the patient in front of me from developing strep related complications, and by the time they come to see me they are usually pretty sick and miserable.

            Regardless of whether you give antibiotics or not, most people only get Strep A once. Antibiotics are to prevent the sequel are and complications of Strep throats and Scarlet fever (PANDA, quinsy, cardiac damage etc etc) they do little to change the course of the sore throats itself.

          • MaineJen

            This is making me so mad I can’t even

          • FallsAngel

            “I’ve never known anyone who had it, nor heard anyone say that they had known someone who got it.”

            Well, that settles it.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I caught it when I was 4. Now I’m hearing impaired.

          • momofone

            You must be mistaken. Ciaparker has never known anyone who had it, and of course “it’s readily treated with antibiotics, so it’s no big deal.”

            (/sarcasm, of course)

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            True, I am a cartoon of a shill, after all, and therefore not a real person

          • EEJIT

            I thought it was Vitamin c

          • Mike Stevens

            No doubt Cia thinks that would be preferrable. I’ve never seen her recommend antibiotics before – as you say, she usually just says the potentially lethal infection (meningitis/malaria/typhoid/diphtheria/pertussis etc) will get better with homeopathy and vitamins.

          • Polak

            Mike the ignorance displayed by her blows my mind away.

          • Gæst

            I know someone who had it. Since she was a classmate, it means I was exposed to it.

          • FallsAngel

            I believe my husband had it as a kid. Must have been something his mother did wrong!

          • N

            My brother had it as a kid. He must have been one of the first generation to be treated with antibiotics. As the doctor said to my mother: Give this medicine, and if in 5 days he has no more fever and feels good again, he can return to school.
            Him returning to school after 5 days scared the hell out of our neighbour and my brother’s teacher as well. Who both thought he should stay in bed at least 2 weeks! The neighbour stopped every contact with our family after that.
            My own children, well the two older ones had it more than once. So, from my point of view I can not say that scarlet fever is so rare. And remembering the reactions of neighbour and teacher, it must have been deadly awful before antibiotics.

          • Madtowngirl

            A student of mine had it in 2008. I had to get tested immediately. It was quite serious, as she was an otherwise healthy individual.

          • MaineJen

            Read my comment above. *You have NO IDEA what you’re talking about*

          • moto_librarian

            Two of my son’s friends had scarlet fever last year.

          • ciaparker2

            In the US or the UK?

          • momofone

            Does it matter?

          • moto_librarian

            U.S.

          • corblimeybot

            My brother had scarlet fever in the 1990s. He was very sick, even with treatment.

      • EEJIT

        “Killed by vaccines” proof please.

      • EEJIT
      • Gæst

        You know what else killed thousands of people and had nothing to do with industrialism? Smallpox blankets given to Native Americans by white colonists. There’s no illusion that needs to be dissolved: Vaccines save life. (Not engaging in biological warfare also saves lives, of course, but disease doesn’t give a shit. If you’re not immune, it spreads as fast as it can, and it adapts to spread faster whenever it can.)

        • ciaparker2

          Not the smallpox vaccine.

          http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/wallace/S616.htm

          Smallpox was a terrible disease, but it evolved to become much milder in the US after the outbreak of 1897. A natural process, not brought about by the filthy, extremely dangerous vaccine.

          • Gæst

            Bullshit. That link is not to a credible scientific study.

          • ciaparker2

            It is a study contemporary to the tens of thousands of smallpox deaths in correctly vaccinated individuals in the England of the late nineteenth century. It is credible because it counted the numbers of the vaccinated and the number of deaths among them. Other studies showed that entire villages in Italy of 100% vaccinated people were 100% wiped out by smallpox. Those in the military in Italy had to get vaxxed every year, and the smallpox death rate among them was even higher than among civilians. There were huge demonstrations in the streets of many European cities of people protesting the mandatory vaccination laws which had killed so many of their children and family members. The smallpox vaccine often caused gangrene, withered limbs, cancer at the injection site, anaphylaxis, and syphilis, TB, and leprosy from the use of contaminated vaccination instruments. Many deaths from it. The Philippines had a low smallpox rate until the vaccination was introduced by Americans, and it immediately caused unprecedented huge smallpox outbreaks in which hundreds of thousands died of smallpox.

            Go read about it. The disease itself became inconsequential after 1897 in the US, becoming milder and less frequent until by 1920 it had a low death rate and was often mistaken for chickenpox.

          • Gæst

            No, that link is not a “study” – it’s a website. Not credible. You are a lunatic conspiracy theorist, and that would be fine if you weren’t advocating dangerous practices. Vaccines work. Period.

          • ciaparker2

            Wallace used accurate contemporary statistics to make diagrams to show the important trends in the smallpox epidemics in England in the later nineteenth century. I encourage the reader to look at it himself. I think that most vaccines work to prevent the targeted illness for an indefinite length of time. But they also cause vaccine encephalitis and neurological disease, sensitize the immune system to vaccine ingredients, causing autoimmune disease, depress immune function for at least a month after the vaccine, allowing dangerous infections to take hold, and prevent the immune system from getting the benefits of the natural disease. Everyone must inform himself as to the risks and the benefits of either getting or refusing the vaccines, and make his own decision.
            “(3) There are a few simple rules for getting at the truth in such statistics as we are now discussing. One is that we must take as long periods of time as possible; another is that we must use the largest populations available. Two other conditions are almost equally important; we must compare, when possible, equal periods before and after vaccination was introduced; and we must also compare the increase or diminution of small-pox with those of other diseases, in order to discover whether there is anything exceptional in the decrease of small-pox mortality which requires a peculiar cause to explain it.

            But the ever-varying figures in long columns are so confusing to most people, that it is impossible to make anything out of them, and to simplify them, averages have to be taken, showing the deaths every five or every ten years, and in other ways, so as to find out what the figures really mean, and even then, by altering the periods or beginning at different years, a very different result may often be shown.

            (4) By far the best way and that usually adopted by statisticians and mathematicians, is to draw out diagrams by which the whole course of the mortality from each disease or group of diseases can be seen and compared at a glance. From the various elaborate tables given in the Reports of the Royal Commission and from the annual reports of the Registrar-General, I constructed twelve diagrams, each showing the comparative rise or fall of small-pox mortality and other diseases in various places and under different conditions; and all these without exception demonstrate either that vaccination has no [[p. 8]] effect whatever, or that it tends to increase rather than decrease small-pox mortality. These are all given in my little book “Vaccination a Delusion,” which can be had from the National Anti-Vaccination League for 9d. a copy, or 10½d. by post.

            (5) As many people do not understand these diagrams I here give a part of one of them in a simplified form in order to render statistical diagrams intelligible to all, and it will serve to show what is the nature of the evidence against vaccination, and also how I prove that the statements made by the doctors and by the Royal Commissioners are not only misleading but absolutely untrue. [[note: diagram to follow originally filled p. 9]]”

          • Who?

            Pure fantasy

          • Gæst

            And which peer-reviewed journal was it published in? Oh, right – none. It was published as a pamphlet by an anti-vax group. So it remains entirely useless as evidence that the smallpox vaccine was not responsible for the eradication of the disease.

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps you need to read about the history of smallpox.
            Take your time – there are 980 pages…
            http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106.pdf

          • shay simmons

            “It is a study contemporary to the tens of thousands of smallpox deaths in correctly vaccinated individuals in the England of the late nineteenth century.”

            No, it’s a pamphlet published National Anti-Vaccination League in 19-0-freakin’-4.

          • Nick Sanders

            Studies mean nothing to CIA, only books (which any yahoo with enough money can publish) and anti-vax websites (available to all the yahoos without enough money to vanity publish a book).

          • kfunk937

            All the better if it’s from the 19th C., when miasma theory was still competitive with the then relatively recent germ theory of disease.

            Although to be fair, Alfred Russel Wallace was a well-regarded scientist and social activist of his time. He did have some quirks, like anti-vaccination and beliefs in spiritualism. Nonetheless, biology and evo are indebted to his work, and he should be given credit as a proto-skeptic for devising a simple disproof of flat-eartherism. Had he lived exceptionally long, perhaps he would’ve come around.

          • Gæst

            Sadly, you are right.

          • shay simmons

            A natural process, not brought about by the filthy, extremely dangerous vaccine.

            Wrong.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3758677/

      • EEJIT

        The fourth adult had been in contact with one of the earlier cases
        and had visited a number of locations on December 23 and 24 while
        infectious, including restaurants and shops in Leichhardt, Pyrmont and
        Neutral Bay, NSW Health said on Wednesday.

        The individual had also travelled on public transport on routes in the inner west.

      • MaineJen

        “Scarlet fever never had a vaccine routinely given for it, as those they tried killed so many. The disease itself evolved to become much less common and much less virulent, until now scarlet fever is very rarely seen”

        I’m going to use some foul language.

        My 4 year old daughter was hospitalized with scarlet fever this past summer. It was complicated by a secondary infection, and required some very heavy-duty antibiotics and a three day hospital stay. If those antibiotics hadn’t been available, we could have lost her. A hundred years ago, we WOULD have lost her.

        I don’t like to call names. But making a statement like that is the *height of ignorance.* Strep throat is very common, as is scarlet fever; it’s just not a killer any more because of modern medicine.

        You have NO idea what you’re talking about. None.

        You’re telling me I need to let my kids suffer even more contagious illnesses because it’s “better for them to have natural immunity.” I’ve seen enough suffering, thanks. I would love to tell you where you can stick your shitty advice, but I’m afraid you’d then take your advice elsewhere and share it with other parents.

        But rest assured, no one here is going to be adopting the “ciaparker vaccine schedule” any time soon. We like our kids alive, thanks.

        • ciaparker2

          I said several times that strep throat was fairly common in the US. I haven’t been able to find any figures on how common scarlet fever is here.

          And I really don’t care if you prefer causing autoimmune disease in your children and recurrent strep infections to a healthy child and permanent immunity to strep. Yes, someone with a scarlet fever should be under a doctor’s care. It would be better to wait a few days before beginning antibiotic treatment, but if it is a serious case, then I would recommend going ahead with antibiotic treatment.

          My daughter had a number of contagious diseases when she was younger, and, as a result, now she never gets sick. It’s been two years last month since she had any contagious illness, although she’s constantly exposed to them at school. I chose the path of letting her go through contagious diseases and supporting her with appropriate home remedies for them, in order to provide her with a healthy immune system. And it worked. I only got antibiotics once when she was six, when she had a sinus infection (diagnosed by me and confirmed by a doctor).

          • moto_librarian

            I wonder how your daughter feels about your brand of “compassion.” Did she enjoy the terrible body aches and high fevers of the flu? Did she enjoy coughing until she vomited from pertussis? Did she ever wonder if she was going to quit breathing in the midst of a coughing fit?

            Here’s a little clue for you. My sons are both fully vaccinated. And they were often sick with whatever germ du jour was going around daycare, but rarely get sick anymore. Our bodies do develop immunities through exposure, but unlike your poor daughter, my boys were spared gaining natural immunity to whooping cough, the flu, and the chicken pox because of readily available vaccines. They will also get their boosters on time because immunity wanes over time, regardless of how it is acquired. Your daughter will need boosters to protect her when her “natural” suffering, oops, immunity, wanes.

          • ciaparker2

            My father was paralyzed for the last three years of his life by a flu vaccine. Three years of misery, uncomprehending how such a thing could have happened to the best and kindest man in the world. Unable to use his legs or his arms; bedridden or propped up in a wheelchair. He would rather have gotten the flu for a few days to being paralyzed for three years. He would rather have been killed by the flu than being paralyzed for three years (then dying at the end).

            The authors of Whole Child, Healthy Child didn’t recommend the flu shot for healthy children. They said flu was very rarely serious in healthy children, and that giving them the vax to try to prevent it in adults was putting the responsibility on the wrong shoulders. I agree. Neither one of us has ever gotten a flu shot, and we never will.

            My daughter now has permanent immunity to the strains of flu she has had (including H1N1), and partial immunity when what she has had is reused in new combinations. So do I. We both have permanent immunity to chickenpox because we had it. We don’t need to ever get a booster anything because we have permanent immunity. I had measles at six, and have permanent immunity to that as well. I had rubella as a small child, and still had antibodies to it when I was pregnant.

            And, as I said, my daughter HAD three doses of DTaP, at 2, 4, and 6 months, but got it anyway at 8 months, as tens of thousands of children have. I WISH that I had not let her get any of them. The booster dose at 18 months erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later.

            Yes, she had coughing fits of ten coughs per breath. They were alarming. I had them too, frightening and very uncomfortable. I got tingling on my chest from lack of oxygen, unable to take a breath until the end of the fit. But I would rather get it nine times a year if she could be free of autism and I could be free of my vaccine-induced MS.

            Natural immunity to diseases like measles, chickenpox, rubella, and mumps does not wane. They are very beneficial in many ways, but one benefit is the permanent immunity they confer.
            How does my daughter feel that I slipped up and did not protect her sufficiently from the hep-B shot at birth which I had said I didn’t want her to get, as I had read it often caused autism? I should have demanded that she stay at my side every minute after birth. Should have told every person I saw that I didn’t want her to get the vaccine. Should have made everyone I saw sign a form saying that I did NOT give permission. They never asked for permission, just did it. And she reacted with vaccine encephalitis, screaming syndrome for four days and nights, and autism.

            So you love the concept of snowflake children, protected from every harsh aspect of life, never building up their strength by learning to take on hard or unpleasant situations. Not going to let your children learn to ride a bike or drive a car? Not going to submit them to the stress of cramming for an exam and going through the anxiety of taking it? Not going to let them study a foreign language, dance, music, sports, because the discipline and practice required are so grueling and often boring? Again, I don’t care, but seems crazy to me.

            I have a different philosophy of childrearing. If it were Ebola, I would be very careful to protect her from it. If it’s measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, pertussis, flu, rotavirus, or hep-A, then she needs to get them. I’ve had all but mumps (and may have had a subclinical case of that). And as a result, I am very rarely ill with any contagious disease.

          • Who?

            You live in a fantasy world.

          • ciaparker2

            I beg to differ. It is necessary to give the immune system the chance to develop and hone its skills for lifelong protection, by getting the milder of the contagious diseases (including measles and pertussis). And going through fevers with no fever reducer. It seems crazy to me to manically pump a child (or adult) full of vaccines, antibiotics, and drugs hoping to avoid any symptom of any sickness, ever. And then to plaintively ask what could have caused it when they develop neurological and autoimmune disease (or of any system in the body).

          • momofone

            “hoping to avoid any symptom of any sickness, ever.”

            Where did you get this idea? I have seen no one say they were trying to avoid “any symptom of any sickness, ever.” I don’t care about a runny nose or fever, but I damn sure want to prevent heart damage if possible.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t care about a runny nose or fever either, but apparently a lot of commenters here do. I put up a quotation from a link talking about the reasons why rheumatic fever has become an extremely rare complication of a strep infection. It’s because the prevalent strains of the disease have changed, so that the one associated with rheumatic fever is nearly gone. So when my daughter catches strep throat, I’ll pay attention, take her to the doctor, but not start the antibiotic until day 4 of the illness, giving her time to make antibodies before that opportunity is gone.

          • moto_librarian

            The flu is not just a runny nose and fever, asshole. H1N1 killed a lot of young, healthy, people. I would like to know whether or not it was lab-confirmed H1N1, and if so, what the doctors recommended be done. Would you wait four days to start medicine for strep throat? I wouldn’t, because it is incredibly painful, and I sure as shit wouldn’t make my children wait four days either.

          • Nick Sanders

            Was H1N1 one of those flus that was actually more dangerous to young, healthy people, or was that another recent flu strain? I just swear I remember there being a cytokine storm causing flu not to long ago.

          • Mishimoo

            Speaking of which, my sister is a teacher and every year has a few kids with heart damage from Strep in her class. Those are just the ones that are healthy enough to come to class, and she worries about them all year long.

          • Who?

            Horrid. And a number of the kids would probably have hearing trouble too?

            On a cheerier note:
            Happy new year!

          • Mishimoo

            Yup! Mix in some kids with behavioral issues as a result of abuse and/or FAS and it makes for a challenging teaching experience. She loves them all though, and I couldn’t be more proud of her.

            Happy New Year to you too, I hope your Christmas was fun!

          • Who?

            She’s really making a difference, well done her. Hope they are all staying safe up there. We’ve had a lovely break, back to work next week. Enjoy the rest of the school holidays.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks! She’s having fun, hoping to get a bigger place before term starts because she’s fostering 2 kids with her husband. Thankfully, the kids get along really well and think it’s funny that their families have had a falling out.

            We’re thinking of climbing a mountain tomorrow (depending on weather) but our holidays have been pretty relaxed too. Now for the school shopping!

          • swbarnes2

            No. The immune system doesn’t work like that. Its like putting a piece of sheet music in a player piano. “Teaching” the piano Fur Elise doesn’t mean it can play the Moonlight Sonata. The immune system isn’t an RPG where you get better by grinding.

            It just doesn’t work like that. Your kid suffered through preventable diseases, diseases that might have killed her, for no reason. You probably are not capable of admitting that you were wrong about that, you don’t seem to be capable of honestly admitting that you are wrong about any of the nonsense you have dropped here, but you are.

          • ciaparker2

            No. You’re wrong about that. Go look at the comparisons of the health of vaxxed and unvaxxed children. As a group,unvaxxed ones are far healthier.

            I have no idea what you’re saying. My daughter had encephalitic reactions to two vaccines which caused autism, aphasia, and bowel disease in her. You’re saying that she would have been much better off to get all the other vaccines on offer than to get mild diseases which she breezed through, and not get many others even though she hasn’t gotten the vaccines for them. This is insane.

            The “only” thing I did wrong was to permit her to get a single vaccine. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn’t. How creepy that you’d like to see how much MORE disabled she could have been had she gotten the MMR and varicella vaccines. Or Prevnar, rotavirus, flu, and hep-A. Or Gardasil, heaven forbid. Or Menactra. I guess that’s what vaccines do to your brain.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Go look at the comparisons of the health of vaxxed and unvaxxed children”

            Do you have some citations to point us to, Cia? How about a controlled trial of vax versus unvaxed showing the unvaxed were healthier?

            The only relevant trials comparing the 2 groups tend to show the vaccinated are healthier (eg KiGGS study, Phillipine study, Nigeria study etc)

          • shay simmons

            ” As a group,unvaxxed ones are far healthier.”

            Not according to the KIGGS study.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            maniacally? You are very silly.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sigh… So much disinformation and so many lies, Cia…. So little time to refute it all…

            “We both have permanent immunity to chickenpox because we had it. We don’t need to ever get a booster anything because we have permanent immunity.”

            Natural immunity to varicella is not “permanent”. How often do you need to be told this? It is incomplete, and unable to eradicate virus. That is why it is (with the extremely rare exception) only those who have had natural chickenpox who go on to develop Shingles, which is a relapse of varicella, with re-emergent virus causing disease. You even had shingles yourself, from which you deliberately infected your own daughter.

            “My father was paralyzed for the last three years of his life by a flu vaccine.”
            So you say, but that is merely wild speculation, and quite unlikely to be true. What was the medical diagnosis? Was it GBS? What tests did he have? What was his MRIB scan, and his LP result?

            “And she reacted with vaccine encephalitis, screaming syndrome for four days and nights, and autism.”
            We’ve done this about what 25 times now? She didn’t have vaccine encephalitis – you never even took her to a doctor, let alone the hospital or to a neurologist and she had no tests performed. Encephalitis does not complicate neonatal Hepatitis B vaccine. Your daughter’s autism stems from her hereditary Neurexin-1 gene deletion, which damages neuronal synapsing, particularly in the cortical language areas of the brain. That is why she got autism. It is recognised as a direct cause. She also suffered prenatal cerebral hypoxia by your own admission, and needed emergency C section for the true knot in the umbilical cord. Stop lying that she got “vaccine encephalitis”, would you?

          • MaineJen

            “It would be better to wait a few days before beginning antibiotic treatment, but if it is a serious case, then I would recommend going ahead with antibiotic treatment.”

            Here’s the thing, toots. NO ONE asked you for any medical advice. And you are certainly not qualified to give it. Did you hear me say that my daughter was seriously ill and may have died if not for antibiotics? Or do you just not care? I suppose you would have stood there in the emergency room and *argued* the doctors out of putting in that IV. “Oh, just wait a few days, doc. I’ve done my research, and Quacky McQuackerson MD says to wait 3 days before starting antibiotics!!!1!”

            Really. Where do you get off, offering diagnoses and treatment plans? Maybe I should have let my little girl suffer for a few more days with a rash so painful she couldn’t raise her arms, wouldn’t let us pick her up or touch her, and couldn’t fully open her eyes? So painful I could barely get clothes on her, or buckle her into her car seat? Was that good for her?

            You are sick.

          • Mike Stevens

            “And I really don’t care if you prefer causing autoimmune disease”

            You do know that Strep infection directly induces autoimmune disease, I trust?
            You must do, Cia, seeing as how you say you know more than 99.99% of doctors about infections…
            Just yesterday momofone had to tell you about PANDAS, which you had never heard of before. Strange for such an “expert” in infection, no?

            Why do you want people to get autoimmune diseases, Cia? I thought you were against them?
            http://ispub.com/IJRH/6/2/12159
            “Post streptococcal syndromes may manifest in multiple organs including the musculoskeletal, central nervous, urinary, integumentary, and circulatory systems. The commonly described post streptococcal syndromes include acute rheumatic fever, post streptococcal glomerulonephritis, post streptococcal arthritis, and pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders. Classically, these complications occur more often in children. “

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16225745
            “Group A Streptococcus can induce autoimmune disease in humans with particular involvement of the heart, joints, and brain. The spectrum of post-streptococcal disease of the central nervous system (CNS) has been widened recently and includes movement disorders (chorea, tics, dystonia, and Parkinsonism), psychiatric disorders (particularly emotional disorders), and associated sleep disorders.”

            Hey, maybe you and your family suffer from post strep autoimmune diseases, Cia? Ever wonder about that?

          • shay simmons

            Just yesterday momofone had to tell you about PANDAS, which you had never heard of before.

            Causing parker to wonder if her daughter had it. I pity that girl, I really do. It would be hell on any teenager to have a parent who kept latching on to the disease du jour. To watch your mother constantly speculating if some new syndrome caused your “damage” … I can’t imagine.

          • Roadstergal

            “And I really don’t care if you prefer causing autoimmune disease in your children”

            ‘Natural infections’ overall are a great way to create autoreactivity. When you have ‘natural infection,’ you have destruction of self cells, which can lead to autoreactivty through a variety of methods, all of which are related to an active and pressing immune response against a pathogen in the presence of the sort of tissue death that you only get with a ‘natural infection’ rather than vaccination.

            There’s a lovely review in NRI from back in 2002 on mechanisms, including discussion of autoimmune diseases mediated by your precious Th1 arm.

      • moto_librarian

        You are an idiot, and so is Humphries. The reason that those childhood illnesses weren’t as lethal had nothing to do with declining virulence and everything to do with medical advancements like antibiotics and ICUs. The fact that the number of cases did not decline until after vaccination began proves that point. As far as I’m concerned, you can take your good nutrition and sanitation and head out to the developing world. Let’s see how long you stay healthy over there.

        • ciaparker2

          Nonsense. The virulence of measles and pertussis had declined dramatically before the vaccines for them had been introduced. There has never been medical treatment for uncomplicated measles or pertussis.

          The virulence of scarlet fever also declined dramatically before the invention of antibiotics. See the quotation I just put up from a science blog about how differing strains of strep throat becoming more prevalent explain the changes in virulence, frequency, and reduction in the incidence of rheumatic fever.

          I lived in Mexico for several years, spending part of that time at a primitive mission near Querétaro. I remained very healthy, and people said I had a stomach of steel. Read Dissolving Illusions if you don’t recognize the importance of nutrition, sanitation, and living conditions in reducing mortality from contagious disease.

          • Empliau

            Yes, but my mom had scarlet fever shortly before penicillin was available (she is still alive). Why didn’t that dramatic decline save her? And why doesn’t she have lifelong immunity – is that available only to children infected with the modern, less virulent (your assertion) strep?

        • Gæst

          Or even just, you know, increased ACCESS to doctors by low-income families.

  • Empress of the Iguana People

    My favorite research is in hagiographies

    • kfunk937

      So you study Trump supporters’ tweets? 🙂

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        lol I don’t have a twitter account.

        • kfunk937

          You are arguably better off without, although an account isn’t necessary to view others’ posts. There is a guy curating before-and-after tweets of Trumpgrets, who’s set up an entire website (areyousorryyet.com) with the intent to continue throughout the term(s). You might enjoy–probably not the right word–seeing that all the befores would qualify as 140-character or less cult-of-personality contributions to hagiography, taken as a whole. 😀

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            *shudder*

  • Box of Salt

    Food for thought: DNFTT.

    (I apologize for my own lapse.)

    • Who?

      It’s just funny….

      • MaineJen

        Yeah, this one has to win some kind of prize. She’s *almost* as funny as the guy who didn’t believe in germ theory, and tried to tell me that “antibodies aren’t that important.”

        Good times…

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          But come on, it gives me an excuse to post this

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzY7qQFij_M

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            you’re enjoying my ill brain’s misconnections a little too much, lol

      • J.B.

        There’s one anti vaxxer then another then another. I wonder if this thread is going to break Disqus?

        • kfunk937

          One thread cia jumped into (an Aurora Sentinel editorial) grew to over 12,000 comments, as I recall. Not all her, to be sure, since a bat signal to others was joined by local anti-vax nimrods, but…blechh.

  • ciaparker2

    Seeing is believing. No media are guaranteed to be truthful or accurate, not books, magazines, news broadcasts, textbooks, blogs, “scientific” studies, or Youtube, and the person reading, listening, or viewing must always constantly perform an assessment of the information based on many means of evaluation. That being said, seeing something on Youtube often provides some cachet of authenticity by entities in the real world being enacted and portrayed on film. Trying to say that everything on Youtube is automatically déclassé and false is just another ploy to try to prevent the masses from realizing the truth about many issues which run contrary to the desired ideological memes. You might as well just say that everything published in Highlights magazine is false, which it is not.

    • shay simmons

      Says the poster who deliberately infected her developmentally disabled daughter with chickenpox.

      • ciaparker2

        nwmt

        • shay simmons

          Worth your time to deliberately infect your daughter with a painful and potentially lethal disease, though, wasn’t it?

          • ciaparker2

            That’s right. I wanted her to get chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella. Her getting pertussis at eight months despite having had three vaxxes for it was a surprise, but I’m glad we both went through it at that time.

            Painful and potentially lethal? Are you talking about the disease or the vaccine? I have MS from a reaction to a tetanus booster. She has autism and aphasia from an encephalitic reaction to the hep-b vaccine at birth, given without permission and against my expressed wishes, and to the DTaP booster at 18 months, which erased her only words. Also painful bowel disease.

            She breezed through the chickenpox: it caused a fever for one day and thousands of lesions, which didn’t seem to bother her at all, but after ten days or so she was completely well, just as I had been after getting it at seven. I’m still hoping she gets measles, mumps, and rubella. She is very rarely sick, after having a lot of colds, and stomach flus for the first five years. And as a result, she has an extremely healthy immune system, unlike most kids these days.

            Chickenpox potentially lethal? Yeah, before the vaccine, there were a hundred deaths a year from it, out of a million cases a year. Fifty in children, fifty in adults. But the vaccine has caused many severe reactions, including death. So you have the choice: get the disease, its permanent immunity, and a stronger, better-trained immune system, while taking a miniscule chance of death from the disease, or take the vaccine and risk any one of dozens of side effect, including death, and the knowledge that protection won’t be lifelong, and if you get it as an adult, it is often much more dangerous. I say natural chickenpox is better. You can say whatever you like, it doesn’t make any difference to me.

          • shay simmons

            You want your daughter to get measles, mumps, and rubella.

            Ladies and gentlemen, I posted earlier that there was something terribly wrong with parker. I rest my case.

          • ciaparker2

            And I rest mine. Anyone who would gibber so thoughtlessly ranks himself.

          • shay simmons

            Was that English?

          • Box of Salt

            shay simmons “Was that English?”

            Evidently. My 12-yo read the comment, and checked the online dictionary: gibber is in it.

          • shay simmons

            It wasn’t the “gibber” that made me wonder.

            But thanks.

          • Who?

            Exactly so. You say ‘what’s a few dead babies’ and everyone knows exactly what to think of you.

          • Who?

            What is it you went through when your daughter had pertussis? Dealing with a sick child, with an illness that you have said is minor and trivial. So no biggie for you then, right?

            Your emphasis on your experience of all this is telling. Perhaps when she does get measles, mumps and/or rubella, you can blog all about your experience? More publicity from someone else’s suffering.

          • ciaparker2

            Pertussis for the last fifty years has been a minor disease, only dangerous in a tiny percentage of the very youngest newborns. One in 200 newborns with it in the first three or four months of life may die. After that age, their breathing passages have developed enough to handle coughing out the mucus in the lungs, and it is a long, tiring illness, but not dangerous. Young infants should be kept sheltered at home and treated with high-dose IV vitamin C if they get it despite precautions. But again, even among the youngest, 199 out of 200 recover. My baby was eight months old when she caught it at a La Leche League meeting. At first it was like a cold, then became long coughing fits at night, ten coughs per breath. She coughed up sheets of slippery mucus at the end of each coughing fit. In between fits, she felt fine and nursed and ate normally. She coughed for over a month. After a week of her coughing, I started to cough, and I had it for over two months. And then we got well.

            It was alarming to watch her cough so many times without being able to take a breath, and I sat her up and tapped her back hoping to help her cough up the mucus. It was very unpleasant for me to cough so many times, it seemed as if I would suffocate before I was able to take a breath. But it wasn’t dangerous. These days, it’s just not a dangerous disease.

            This is what happened. You asked what I went through. Why do you say I want publicity from someone else’s suffering? I wouldn’t have described it if you hadn’t asked. It was unpleasant at the time, but not that bad. I want people to know the truth. She was saying two words, uh for up at the playground and uff for dog at the time she got the DTaP booster at 18 months, delayed by the vaccine encephalitis from the hep-b vaccine at birth but progressing. The booster erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later.

            So what’s worse? All parents need to know the facts and make their choice. The vaccine does nothing to protect young infants, whose immune systems haven’t developed enough to react as desired. The acellular vaccine is very ineffective anyway, only protecting half of toddlers and a quarter of school-aged children. Didn’t work at all in the case of my daughter, who had gotten it at 2, 4, and 6 months. The vaccine often causes asthma (one in nine American children now), allergies (one in three), seizure disorder (one in twenty), SIDS (Each year in the United States, there are about 3,500 Sudden Unexpected Infant Deaths http://www.cdc.gov/sids/aboutsuidandsids.htm) , or autism (one in forty). There are usually ten deaths a year from pertussis, most in young infants. Five years ago there was an outbreak in which 48,000 Americans were diagnosed with pertussis, most of them vaxxed, with twenty deaths, most of them infants. Vitamin C will effectively treat the disease even in the youngest infants.

          • shay simmons

            Pertussis for the last fifty years has been a minor disease, only dangerous in a tiny percentage of the very youngest newborns. One in 200 newborns with it in the first three or four months of life may die.

            Yes. Just a minor disease.

          • Who?

            What’s a few dead babies, right?

          • Mike Stevens

            But it’s ok, most of those who die are poor, or immigrants, so it’s “No big deal”, as Cia says.

          • Who?

            Or overseas, so not our problem…

          • Sue

            “One in 200 newborns with it in the first three or four months of life may die.”

            So, in a population where essentially everyone gets it, that’s a lot of dead newborns.

            The vaccine does NOT cause asthma, SIDS or autism – all of these have been disproven with good quality data. And Vit C – excess is excreted in the urine, and can cause kidney stones.

            Again, it;s useful for readers to see how little science or medicine anti-vaxers understand. Thanks for reminding us.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “But again, even among the youngest, 199 out of 200 recover. ”

            My mother and my aunt were anti-vaxers. Two of my younger sibs caught pertussis and gave it to my baby cousin. He ended up in the ICU. It’s true, he did recover…but with permanent lung damage.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            They must dispair of you, fiftyfifty, what with your medical education an all

          • fiftyfifty1

            They did despair of me. And the fact that another of my sibs became a doctor too. And the fact that all of us chose to get fully vaccinated upon reaching legal age, and fully vaccinate all our own children.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Family, sigh. We’d be delighted if minibard and/or the heir apparent became docs

          • FallsAngel

            If there were a vaccine that caused a serious reaction in 1 of every 200 recipients, you would be up in arms, literally1 Get real, cia, that’s a very high death rate.

            I want people to know the truth too. You have no medical background and you have no right to be posting any medical advice whatsoever. Your daughter was not saying words. Those were some utterances that you could understand. She was a little slow in talking.

            You give no citations for these percentages, because you just made them up, or read them on some woo website that you don’t want to disclose to us. Vaccines do not cause asthma, seizure disorders, SIDS or autism.

            The proper treatment for pertussis is antibiotics plus supportive care.

          • ciaparker2

            Antibiotics do nothing for pertussis once the cough has started, as the damage is caused by a toxin produced by the bacteria, which causes the cilia in the breathing passages to break off, and then it’s very hard to cough out the mucus. You just have to wait for them to regrow. Antibiotics may protect others from catching it, but do nothing for the patient himself, assuming he has no secondary bacterial infections.
            Vaccines already do severe damage to far more than one in 200, more like in half, starting with allergies and asthma, but then autism in one in forty.
            It’s totally up to the parents. They should shelter the child at home for the first few months, treat with high-dose vitamin C if it occurs anyway. If it were routinely used from an early stage, there would be no deaths from pertussis even in infants. If they let the child get even one ineffective, dangerous pertussis shot, it will mean he won’t get permanent immunity when he eventually gets pertussis, because of original antigenic sin. Better to shelter babies and just let older kids get pertussis, go through it, and get permanent immunity. The mortality in those over four months old, or even two or three, is close to zero.

          • FallsAngel

            You are wrong, cia, about antibiotics. The sooner the antibiotics are started, the better. The recommendation is to treat people 1 year of age and older within 3 weeks of cough onset, and infants within 6 weeks of onset. https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/clinical/treatment.html
            You are aware that pertussis usually lasts about 100 days.

            Vaccines do not cause autism.

            Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about re: original antigenic sin. You do not get permanent immunity to pertussis even with pertussis disease, and in some cases, vaccine immunity lasts longer than “natural” immunity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15876927

            There is no need for a baby to die because his/her parents are stupid.

            Quit lying. Merry Christmas!

          • ciaparker2

            2007 Cochrane Review found that using antibiotics to treat pertussis did NOT alter the clinical outcome. Yeah, using them as soon as the person was infected would help, but no one realizes that the apparent cold is really whooping cough (pertussis) for several weeks, and by then the antibiotics will do NOTHING for the person sick with it.
            No, there’s no reason for the baby to die, but parents must realize that dying from a reaction to the vaccine (including SIDS) is much more likely than its dying from pertussis, and will do NOTHING to protect the baby, whose immune system hasn’t developed yet. The baby should be kept sheltered at home, away from germs. Sick caregivers should use masks and gloves in handling the newborn. Vitamin C will cure pertussis at any age if given in high enough and frequent enough doses.

          • Nick Sanders
          • ciaparker2

            Gee, brought to us by the same people who just banned Tony Mawson’s new study showing that autism and autoimmune disease are three times more common in vaccinated than in unvaccinated children?

            http://www.naturalnews.com/042727_infants_sudden_death_vaccines.html
            See also Viera Scheibner’s study looking at infants’ breathing patterns before and after getting the DPT vaccine. In a large percentage of them, apnea, a temporary pause in breathing, was seen after the vaccine, but not before, and in a fair number the pause in breathing was permanent and caused their death from “inexplicable” SIDS.

            Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)

            Prior to the introduction of organized vaccination programs, ‘crib death’ was so rare that it was not mentioned in infant mortality statistics. In the United States, national immunization campaigns were initiated in the 1960s when several new vaccines were introduced and promoted. For the first time in history, most U.S. infants were required to receive several doses of DPT
            (diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus), polio, and measles vaccines.[6]

            By 1969, an …alarming epidemic… of sudden unexplained infant deaths impelled researchers to create a new medical term — sudden infant death
            syndrome (SIDS).[7] By 1972, SIDS had become the leading cause of post-neonatal mortality (deaths of infants from 28 days to one year old) in the United States.[8]

            In 1973, the National Center for Health Statistics, operated by the CDC, created a new cause-of-death category to document deaths due to SIDS.[9,10]

          • Nick Sanders
          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Let’s see you take Dr. Amy’s Anti-vax Challenge … if you dare!

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/09/take-the-dr-amy-anti-vax-challenge.html

          • kfunk937

            Cia, why is there no record of any study by Viera Scheibner on vaccines? The only thing indexed in PubMed, aside from an old article on caffeine use in pregnancy, is a comment complaining about how she was described in someone else’s article in 2003.

          • Mike Stevens

            You do appreciate that DPT vaccine is associated with a reduction in SIDS, I trust?

          • FallsAngel

            Please post your medical credentials. My link is from 2015, newer than yours and I’d like to see that Cochrane report before I believe you.

            Please stop this BS about vaccine injuries.

            Have a nice Christmas.

          • FallsAngel

            Hey, cia, I looked up the Cochrane review. Guess what? You lied again. You can’t even chalk this one up to not understanding big medical words. Here’s what they say in CONCLUSION: “Although antibiotics were effective in eliminating B. pertussis,
            they did not alter the subsequent clinical course of the illness. There
            is insufficient evidence to determine the benefits of prophylactic
            treatment of pertussis contacts.” They also said: “The result of the review should be interpreted with caution since this review is based on a limited number of trials and some of these trials involved small numbers of participants.”

            Now that was done almost 10 years ago. The recommendations for treating pertussis are still the same today.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s boiler-plate language to say that the results must be viewed with caution. As you saw, the study found that antibiotics did no good to treat the patient. From Dr. Sears’ The Vaccine Book, first edition, p. 30: “Is pertussis treatable? Yes and no. Antibiotics are used to kill the germ, so a person is no longer contagious. However, the damage to the airway caused by the infection produces weeks of ongoing cough, even after the germs are gone. If treatment is started right at the onset of the coughing fits, the disease course may be milder and shorter. But by the time anyone realizes a bad cough is actually pertussis, treatment might not help very much and the disease will just have to run its course. Infants who have severe coughing fits and turn blue each time due to lack of oxygen need to be hospitalized for several days to help support them through the fits.”

            The cough is caused by a toxin produced by the bacteria. The toxin breaks off the cilia in the airways that otherwise would push the mucus up to be coughed out. Once they’re broken by the toxin, they’re broken until they grow back several weeks later. In the meantime, it’s very hard for the body to cough out the mucus, which causes the violent coughing fits. And even if you take an antibiotic which kills all the germs, the cilia are still broken off, and you’re still going to be in for weeks of violent coughing fits. And the antibiotics make complications more likely. Better NOT to take any antibiotics, and just stay quiet at home until recovered. Vitamin C will treat it very effectively (though still can’t produce the miracle of instantly regenerating cilia), as will alternating Pertudoron 1 and 2.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Wrong and perfectly illustrates ignorance and gullibility.

          • ciaparker2

            So explain how giving an antibiotic to someone with pertussis would help them? The problem is caused by the toxin produced, and once the severe coughing has started, the damage to the cilia is done. Antibiotics will not make the cilia grow back any faster.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You are not convincing anyone of anything.

          • ciaparker2

            “Are you concerned about your vaccinated or unvaccinated child getting whooping cough? Well, you shouldn’t be terrified, if you know how to care for your infant and child when it happens. The reason you hear of so much dread and why there is so much fear mongering among the conventional medical community, is because they have no idea how to treat whooping cough. Pertussis bacteria is very tricky and part of its armor are several toxins. The toxin production is the major reason for the terrible symptoms. Conventional medical doctors never address this problem. They give antibiotics, which have never been shown to limit the duration or severity of the cough in well established disease.

            Vitamin C, in very high oral doses, will get you and your children through the weeks as your children develop lasting immunity that they can pass on to their young infants. Is vitamin C an instant cure? No, but the majority of parents who use it on their infected children report great relief. This includes very young infants. Most parents report a significant decrease in cough severity within the first 24 hours of proper dosing. This is because the primary issue of toxin neutralization is addressed by vitamin C.

            If you think that a vaccinated person cannot get whooping cough, in the most severe manner, think again. Most babies over the age of 6 months who get whooping cough are fully and “appropriately” vaccinated.”

            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/12/20/special-report-the-vitamin-c-treatment-of-whooping-cough-suzanne-humphries-md/

            I misguidedly let my baby get the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, and then she caught pertussis anyway at a La Leche League meeting at 8 months old (and gave it to me). It was unpleasant, long-lasting, and wearing, but not dangerous, and we eventually made a full recovery. But then when I let her get the DTaP booster at 18 months old, it erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. Is still very low-verbal and extremely impaired at 16, and will never be independent. The pertussis wasn’t that bad, but the autism has been and will continue to be for the rest of her life.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            More nonsense.

          • ciaparker2

            Could you be more specific as to what you judge to be nonsense?
            “In 2012, the most recent peak year, 48,277 cases of pertussis were reported in the United States, but many more go undiagnosed and unreported. This is the largest number of cases reported in the United States since 1955 when 62,786 cases were reported.”
            https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/fast-facts.html

            “Overall reporting of pertussis declined during 2013
            after a peak year in 2012. During 2012, 48,277 cases of pertussis were reported to CDC, including 20 pertussis-related deaths. This was the most reported cases since 1955. In 2012, second highest rates of disease after babies were observed in children 7 through 10 years old. Rates increased in teens 13 and 14 years of
            age.” https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks/trends.html

            “According
            to this Whooping Cough Fact Sheet, there were 255 deaths from whooping cough in the United States between 2000 and 2012, and 221 of those
            deaths occurred in infants under three months of age.” http://vaxtruth.org/2015/01/pertussis/

            “A very recent DTaP vaccine study from the Oxford Journal Clinical Infectious Diseases demonstrates at vaccine efficacy is shockingly low, and varies greatly with age: 41% for toddlers and preschoolers and 24% for elementary age kids. These numbers make the pertussis vaccine one of the least effective vaccines on the market. (source)”

            http://holisticsquid.com/was-the-whooping-cough-epidemics-caused-by-unvaccinated-kids/

            “We’ve had over 90% baby vaccination rates for whooping cough vaccines for over 11 years…since 2000, AND they’ve included even more shots since then for the adolescents at the time… and yet more, after 2000… AND here we are with whooping cough in EVEN higher numbers than it was before 1960? Don’t you think that’s absolutely astonishing?
            …Australia, which has had over a 95% whooping cough vaccination rate since 1990, is having the largest outbreak in their history since pertussis
            vaccination started. The same is happening in USA, and their rate of vaccination is even higher than Australia. So what do you think is happening
            there?” – Hilary Butler

            ” Vitamin C, in very high oral doses, will get you and your children through the weeks as your children develop lasting immunity that they can pass on to their young infants. Is vitamin C an instant cure? No, but the majority of parents who use it on their infected children report great
            relief. This includes very young infants. Most parents report a significant decrease in cough severity within the first 24 hours of proper dosing. This is because the primary issue of toxin neutralization is addressed by vitamin C.”

            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/09/07/vitamin-c-for-whooping-cough-updated-edition-suzanne-humphries-md/

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Everything you’ve said about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. You’ve provided no scientific evidence for your claims.

          • ciaparker2

            OK, if you want to leave it broadly-phrased, please see all the hundreds of studies in Neil Z. Miller’s recently-published book Critical Vaccine Studies, recent studies on every area of vaccine-caused damage. Also Dr. Meyer Eisenstein’s Make an Informed Vaccine Decision, with the most common causes of severe vaccine damage explained for each vaccine, with recent studies proving what he says cited. The Age of Autism or Evidence of Harm with hundreds of scientific citations showing exactly how mercury in vaccines causes autism and many other kinds of damage. Or Dr. Harold Buttram’s Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? demonstrating exactly how vaccines cause vaccine encephalitis, autism, seizure disorders, and other kinds of vaccine damage. Hundreds of scientific studies cited in each book.

            Or if you have a specific claim to make, please make it and I will refute it. Is Mike Stevens on vacation over the holidays? I would have thought he’d have been set on me by now.

          • Mike Stevens

            I take orders from no one. Refuting your nonsense is a pleasurable hobby of mine.

            I am disappointed you think books written by pretend doctors or quacks like Buttram or Scheibner or Eisenstein provide appropriate scientific evidence… Does that mean you will accept books written by abductees about their experiences as confirmation alien abduction is real?
            Don’t you think there should be a consistent standard require before scientific evidence is regarded as acceptable?

          • ciaparker2

            So one might almost say that you are biddable, that where I go, there you follow.

            What did you think of the study Anthony Mawson did showing that autism and autoimmune disease were three times more common in vaxxed than in unvaxxed children, banned from the Internet? Got thousands of views the few days it was up. It seems to be the case that facts on vaccine damage are automatically dismissed as nonsense by the pharma industry, which controls the media, legislatures, and academia as well.

          • Mike Stevens

            You may notice I have been commenting on this article on and off for about a week. You arrived here a few days ago, and say I have followed you here?

            Your paranoia is rampant, Cia.

            The Mawson paper appears to be very unsound methodologically, and being based upon a self-selected survey of parents, is prone to an unacceptably high degree of selection bias, which would work in favour of biasing results to indicate vaccines caused harm.
            No wonder it was never formally published, and removed after the preliminary stages.

            Of course, I understand in antivax propaganda conspiracy world, which you perennially inhabit, the paper was pulled because pharma entirely controls the media, legislature, academia, government, and religion.

          • FallsAngel

            “Your paranoia is rampant, Cia.”

            I hope I don’t stir up a can of worms here:

            Back when the Middle-Schoolers were haranguing a pro-vaxer, one of the accusations against him was that he was “following” a poor, benighted AVer from one vaccine thread to another. I pointed out that would be impossible, as this particular AV had a “private” comment history and that it simply stands to reason that people interested in vaccines will find vaccine threads.

            So yeah, that’s what happened this time, too (for cia’s enlightenment).

          • ciaparker2

            No, I hadn’t seen any comments by you here. I’m sure he’ll get another journal to publish it. Pretty groundbreaking study, I’d say. Mawson’s study wasn’t designed to be representative but only to obtain a “convenience” sample of unvaccinated children large enough to determine if statistically significant differences in health outcomes existed between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, given that self-reports are well accepted as a valid source of data. I’d say it’s more pharma bullying, determined to keep as many people as possible from learning the truth about vaccines for as long as possible.

          • Mike Stevens

            “No, I hadn’t seen any comments by you here.”

            So you say.
            Fact is your Antivax paymasters have instructed you to stalk/track me here and to disseminate their Antivax propaganda message.*

            *See how easily one can construe an evil conspiracy if one is paranoid enough?

          • shay simmons

            Neil Z. Miller’s recently-published book

            Did he get his information via aliens again?

            Dr. Meyer Eisenstein’s Make an Informed Vaccine Decision,

            That would be the late Dr Eisenstein who had one of the largest malpractice suits in the country decided against him?

            Dr. Harold Buttram’s Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis?

            Here’s what Harold Buttram is calling vaccine encephalitis – “I want you to think about a dead baby. This baby was ten weeks old when he died. The autopsy revealed bleeding around the brain, in the eyes and in the spinal column. There were bruises on the sides of his head. Another thing that the autopsy showed was four broken ribs. These fractures had started to heal, and therefore indicated a pattern of physical abuse prior to the date of death. The father admitted to holding the baby by his feet and hitting him shortly before he died.” Peter Bowditch.

          • Mike Stevens

            The nonsense relates to your slavish and delusional belief in vitamin C as a cure-all for all manner of infections.
            This belief is not founded in medical science, nor can you provide any valid medical citations to support its use, just fairy tales and testimonials, or anecdotes from quacks who wrote a book.

          • ciaparker2

            WOW, speak of the devil and he will come! Not thirty seconds ago I said you must be on holiday or they would have set you on me by now!

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes I saw that.
            Sorry I was late to the “refute Cia Parker’s idiotic antivaccine propaganda” party.
            My reptilian overlord masters failed to alert me with their usual “Batshill signal” in time to join in earlier.

          • This is not acceptable, Michael. Don’t let it happen again!

          • shay simmons

            We’ll cut your pay. What’s half of zero?

          • Mike Stevens

            You cad!

          • shay simmons

            Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Sorry, i’ve been ill, and the hatchlings did desire presents and fancy food this weekend

          • Mike Stevens

            Get well soon and best wishes!

          • FallsAngel

            You must be losing it, cia. Mike’s been posting regularly! He just didn’t get over here right away.

          • Mike Stevens

            Antibiotics help early in the course of the clinical illness (within the first 1-2 weeks). As the illness can last 3 months without early treatment, it’s viewed by doctors as being very necessary.

            It also eradicates bacteria, meaning your unvaccinated plague producer will not infect someone else’s vulnerable baby and kill them.

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, Mike, I said yesterday that if antibiotics were taken very soon after infection, they might stop the illness from taking hold. But also that very few people are aware that infection has taken place until the severe, long-lasting coughing fits have started, and then it’s too later for antibiotics to treat the person with pertussis. And I also said that they might treat a secondary bacterial infection, but usually there isn’t one.
            So the bottom line is that once the coughing starts, you can give large doses of vitamin C, preferably intravenously at the hospital in the case of a young infant, otherwise orally at home is fine. Young infants can be given respiratory support at the hospital. Older babies and everyone else can just tough it out and wait for it to end. C. coughed for over a month and I coughed for over two months. I remember feeling when a coughing fit was about to start that I was being zoomed up to the top of a five-hundred story building, about to be thrown off when the coughing started. I have since read that the mucus coughed up is thick and sticky, but that is not how I would describe it, it makes me think of paste. C. would cough up an entire sheet of clear, slippery mucus that covered the entire cloth diaper I wiped her face with. Two or three fits a night during the worst week. About ten coughs per breath. Very uncomfortable, and it seemed as though it were never going to end, but it is not a dangerous disease in those older than three or four months old. (And the booster erasing C’s words and her being diagnosed with autism two months later has been what REALLY is never going to end, many years after the pertussis did.)
            And antibiotics will not alter the course of the severe coughing once it has started, since, as I explained, the bacteria are not causing the coughing, but rather they produced a toxin which broke off the cilia in the breathing passages which push the mucus up to where it can easily be coughed out. Once they’re broken, there’s nothing you can do aside from the vitamin C and non-pharmaceutical supportive treatments.

          • ciaparker2

            Now, if you’re up to speed in the comments here, I’m sure you saw that several here are insisting that antibiotic treatment will favorably affect the course of the severe coughing even when begun after the coughing has started. Could you please correct this misapprehension? I see by your cagy phrasing that you regret that they have brought us to this pass, but so it goes.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’d say the scientific evidence for antibiotics shortening the clinical duration of pertussis if given after the paroxysmal phase of coughing starts is as robust as that showing Vitamn C shortens the duration of illness.
            Happy with that?

          • ciaparker2

            Very politic you are, in the worst sense of the word. Vitamin C will effectively treat any kind of disease, certainly pertussis. But admitting how effective it is is not in your brief, so you won’t admit it. But I thank you for admitting in a roundabout way that antibiotics will not favorably affect the terrible fits of coughing once they have started.

            Do you guys have an automated system to put ten upvotes on even the most inane comments for your team within five minutes of their being posted?

          • Mike Stevens

            I only see 2 upvotes after 1 hour.
            Paranoid conspiracist much?

            I am glad you admit antibiotics are as effective in late pertussis as vitamin C is. You seem to think that’s pretty effective.

          • ciaparker2

            Has V been suspended? Just wondering…

          • Mike Stevens

            ??

          • ciaparker2

            I said earlier that young infants should be sheltered at home, away from potential germ-bearers, and caregivers should use masks and gloves if necessary. Still not a reason to disable or kill older children or adults with the extremely ineffective, dangerous vaccine. And if you get it even once, you’ve lost your chance to get permanent immunity when you get pertussis. Better to NOT get the vaccine, GET pertussis at an age older than the newborn stage, and then get permanent immunity and the ability to protect future infants with placental immunity and breastfeeding (which women WON’T be able to do if they ever commit original antigenic sin by getting the vaccine).

          • momofone

            I’m curious–it seems as if you think people choose when their babies are exposed (“GET pertussis at an age older than the newborn stage … “). Generally people are not aware that they’re spreading illness, particularly to vulnerable people. Unlike you, most people have more concern for others and their well-being than that.

          • FallsAngel

            If you kill the bacteria, they won’t make the toxin.

          • Mike Stevens

            Do you see the two letters after Amy’s name Cia?
            They mean she is a doctor, and knows a darn sight more about medicine than you do.
            She doesn’t need to explain anti-microbial therapy to you. Go read a basic textbook on the topic.

            May I suggest you start here:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/296f5c8c23f38bfed59226fd5f65abb1a588870dd4351fab6396c97e2a5033bd.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            The only thing most doctors know about vaccines is what’s available for what diseases, and what ages are supposed to get them. They are told that serious reactions are one in a million, and so don’t even notice the serious reactions that occur on their watch. I think doctors these days are taught that measles, pertussis, etc., were killer diseases that were only quelled when the vaccines for them were developed. Not true. I know much, much more about vaccines than 99.99% of doctors, having the personal interest of everyone in my family having been seriously damaged by vaccines given by clueless doctors.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            And we have a winner, folks!!

            May I introduce ciaparker, Dunning-Kruger confident idiot of the year!!

            As Dr. Dunning said:

            “The incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.”

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/09/dunning-kruger-nation-and-the-disparagement-of-expertise.html

          • Acleron

            So far you have amply demonstrated that you know next to nothing about vaccines, immunology, general medicine and your maths is pretty poor as well. You have used your overwhelming ego and ignorance to harm your own daughter and you are trying to harm others.

          • MaineJen

            Want…to…comment…but…laughing…too…hard

          • shay simmons

            “I know much, much more about vaccines than 99.99% of doctors”

            Dunning-Krueger strikes again.

          • sabelmouse

            it ain’t hard for reasons explained in the comment.

          • shay simmons

            Dunning-Krueger strikes twice.

          • sabelmouse

            what’s it like pretending to be really stupid for money. unless you really are of course.

          • shay simmons

            What’s it like having nothing but lame-ass squeals of ‘shill’ to contribute?

            Flagged and down voted for shill accusation.

          • sabelmouse

            and that matters to me?

          • shay simmons

            We already know that facts don’t matter to you.

          • sabelmouse

            you post no facts.

          • shay simmons

            Says the poster who has yet to produce one.

          • FallsAngel

            Upvote X 1000!

          • FallsAngel

            “Dunning-Krueger strikes again.”

            Big time!

          • sabelmouse

            as meaningful as those you claim to have but removed a couple of years ago from your profile.

          • Mike Stevens

            What did I remove?

          • sabelmouse

            i know you’re super busy but…

          • Mike Stevens

            Well?
            I am trying to get the timing right on 5 separate oven cook items just now, but I always have time for you Sabel

          • shay simmons

            Six’ll get you ten sabel never answers Mike’s question.

          • Acleron

            That’s good odds for a dead cert.

          • shay simmons

            I’m feeling generous.

          • sabelmouse

            because it’s silly. context! talking to pros is like being locked in a school room with really stupid teachers giving busy work .

          • shay simmons

            Can you answer Mike’s question, or not?

          • FallsAngel

            I will point out I told you this a few days ago. If you kill the bacteria, they can’t make the toxin any more. Get it?

          • ciaparker2

            Please support your accusations of ignorance and gullibility. Bringing in a hired gun is not sufficient.

          • Mike Stevens

            Evidence of ignorance?
            …see comments in evidence. Thinks everyone is damaged by vaccines, which cause encephalitis in every recipient. Says she knows more about infections like Hepatitis than the CDC, WHO, and all the medical and pediatrician’s associations put together. (More Dunning Kruger than simple ignorance, but still indicative)

            Evidence of gullibility?
            …see comments in evidence. Thinks every silly anecdote or antivaccine fairytale she reads is fact. Believe implicitly on the curative powers of homeopathy and high dose vitamins. Has been paying quacks and homeopaths over $100 per week to cure her MS with no response over 12 years.

            I rest my case.

          • FallsAngel

            Hired gun my uh, foot, cia! I for one am glad it wasn’t just Mike and me this time refuting your nonsense. It’s been lonely and frustrating at times. The more who say “bollocks” or whatever, the better.

          • shay simmons

            Downvoted and flagged for shill accusation.

          • FallsAngel

            No, that’s not what the Cochrane review said. The bacteria did eliminate the Bordetella Pertussis. Dr. Sears is saying basically the same thing as the CDC. You have to treat it early. The CDC gave a 3 week window for people over 1 year of age, and a six week window for infants. Do you understand what that means? Now anyone other than you would take an infant in long before they’d been coughing for six weeks, probably also an older child before three weeks of cough.

            It is not better to stay home and do nothing, though we know that’s what you did with your daughter, then blamed the vaccines.

          • MaineJen

            Isolate infants until they can get the illness “safely?”

            Pardon my french, but fuuuuuuuuuck you.

          • N

            That would mean, mom can’t go to work, can’t go shopping, can’t go for a walk, can’t take older siblings to playing parks, nor to school, no contact with the working-out-of-house-dad, or other family members like aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents,… the whole family should stay isolated at home, be homeschooled. Wouldn’t that be realistic?
            And what am I going to do, if one of the older siblings gets his safe pertussis and coughs for weeks. I will have to nurse/care for that older child without antibiotics and any other medication, except homeopathy, than disinfect myself entirely, wear a mask and nurse/breastfeed my isolated baby? Who will be crying it out at that time, because he is alone a lot of time as I am caring for the pertussis infected sibling? What a cool situation that would be. And I already freaked out, when I had a stomach flu 2 weeks ago, for not wanting to give it to my children.

          • N

            No, the proper treatment for pertussis would be to wait and see… if the baby/child is meant to live. If he/she ate enough ginger and garlic and coconut oil, he/she can do it. If not, it is their own fault, or they were just not meant to live.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, I remember learning that in nursing school, not! (J/K, I know you’re one of the good guys!)

          • momofone

            Exactly. It’s just like snakehandling churches; if you die when you’re bitten, it just shows that your faith was inadequate.

          • momofone

            “But again, even among the youngest, 199 out of 200 recover.”

            You should tell that to my dear friend who lost two babies (!), an eight-month-old daughter, and one year later, her six-week-old son. I’m sure she would find it very comforting that MOST babies survive. You moron.

          • ciaparker2

            I always urge parents to research the issues very carefully before making the vaccine decision. Now read about the hundreds of babies born healthy, then killed or brain-damaged by the DTaP, hep-B, flu, or MMR vaccines (or others). At this time, babies are far more likely to be severely damaged or killed by vaccines than by the VPDs, but that doesn’t mean that it is not possible for a baby to die of a VPD. Parents must shelter young babies at home and take appropriate precautions, and breastfeed them until self-weaning. There are dangers on both sides. But the pertussis vaccine doesn’t work at all to protect babies, their immune systems are too undeveloped, but starting at two months rather than five months more than doubles their incidence of asthma at seven years old, and asthma kills thousands of children a year (Manitobe study).

          • momofone

            This was pre-vaccine. Her third child was born years later and was fully vaccinated as soon as possible. She (my friend) never understood why anyone would take such a chance, because she knew the real cost.

          • momofone

            If you’ve researched the issue very carefully, as you say, please post a link to your study/-ies. I’d be very interested in reading it/them.

          • Mike Stevens

            I told you before Cia, the Manitoba study was not representative, and the main problem was significant confounding. There was less asthma in those with delayed versus on time vaccination. That was because children with intercurrent infections were advised to delay vaccination.
            As we know (hygiene hypothesis), fewer intercurrent childhood infections means less asthma. So the dtap vaccine had nothing to do with the asthma.
            HOW MUCH LONGER ARE YOU GOING TO LIE ABOUT THIS STUDY?

          • ciaparker2

            Not representative? The subjects of the Manitoba study were 11,531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT.

            “Background

            Early childhood immunizations have been viewed as promoters of asthma development by stimulating a TH2-type immune response or decreasing microbial pressure, which shifts the balance between TH1 and TH2 immunity.

            Objective

            Differing time schedules for childhood immunizations may explain the discrepant findings of an association with asthma reported in observational studies. This research was undertaken to determine whether timing of diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus (DPT) immunization has an effect on the development of childhood asthma by age 7 years.

            Methods

            This was a retrospective longitudinal study of a cohort of children born in Manitoba in 1995. The complete immunization and health care records of cohort children from birth until age 7 years were available for analysis. The adjusted odds ratio for asthma at age 7 years according to timing of DPT immunization was computed from multivariable logistic regression.

            Results

            Among 11, 531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma was reduced to ½ in children whose first dose of DPT was delayed by more than 2 months. The likelihood of asthma in children with delays in all 3 doses was 0.39 (95% CI, 0.18-0.86).

            Conclusion

            We found a negative association between delay in administration of the first dose of whole-cell DPT immunization in childhood and the development of asthma; the association was greater with delays in all of the first 3 doses. The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.”

            http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(07)02379-2/abstract

            DR often cited studies purporting to show that vaccines do not cause autism which only included ONE, maximum TWO, completely unvaxxed children. And you think the Manitoba study was unrepresentative?

          • Mike Stevens

            It is not representative of studies looking at the role of vaccination in asthma, no.

            For starters, it doesn’t look at rates between unvaxed and vaxed populations, it showed that those who delayed getting their vaccination for DTP had a lower rate of asthma than those who got vaccines on time.
            In other words, it doesn’t establish that DTP causes asthma at all.

            The reasons for the delay in vaccination are crucial. Delay in vaccination is a marker for another variable entirely, namely experience of multiple infections in infancy, which we now know leads to a reduction in asthma manifestations through the hygiene hypothesis.

            The study is also unrepresentative in terms of its conclusions… The vast majority of the research in this area shows DTP vaccination was unrelated to incidence/prevalence of asthma, and many papers show it actually decreased asthma.

            Of course, you ignore all those studies, because they prove you wrong.
            We have been here before, Cia, often.

          • ciaparker2

            I’d say that if ten percent of children out of thousands who started the pertussis series at two months had asthma at seven, while only five percent of thousands who did NOT get it at two months old, but only started at five months old, did NOT have asthma at seven years old, that that shows that it was the vaccine that caused the asthma, as this study in fact showed.
            So let’s look at other studies.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, again you are looking at only a fraction of the available evidence on the topic of asthma and vaccines. It is not hard to do internet searches to find some paper with a limited number of subjects that suggests what you want to find – that is called “confirmation bias”, and you are highly prone to it.
            Scientists are taught to guard against this type of thinking, and consider the TOTALITY of evidence, and also give studies of highest methodological quality greater credence.

            If one looks at what the international societies who deal with asthma problems are saying, it is that vaccines do not cause asthma.
            The World Allergy Organisation draw that conclusion.
            http://www.worldallergy.org/professional/allergic_diseases_center/vaccination_and_risk/

            If one looks at expert reviews and metanalyses of other studies (the best studies are selected and their results pooled and reanalysed), you find that vaccines like DTP do not cause asthma.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372 (167,000 children)
            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308362
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181437

            By the way, you know Schoenfeld, the darling of the antivax community ever since he proposed vaccines caused a made-up illness (ASIA)?
            Even he doesn’t think much of the idea of vaccines causing allergic/atopic disorders such as asthma. Fancy that, huh?
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15167034

            “There is no evidence that vaccines such as Bacille Calmette-Guerin;
            pertussis; influenza; measles, mumps, and rubella; or smallpox have an effect on the risk of the development of atopy later in life….
            SUMMARY: Childhood vaccination remains an essential part of child health programs and should not be withheld, even from children predisposed to allergy. Vaccinations are safe, but special attention should be taken in high-risk individuals with anaphylactic reactions to foods, and in patients with autoimmune diseases.

          • Mike Stevens

            You forgot to tell the people here your real story, Cia.
            – That your family, you included, are afflicted with autism.
            – That your daughter was tested to have a genetic mutation of Neurexin-1, leading to a deficiency of the protein required for normal neuronal synapsing, and which is a direct cause of autism.
            – That you also needed an emergency C section since your daughter suffered cerebral anoxia from a true knot in the umbilical cord. Her APGAR scores were low at one and ten minutes, indicating significant clinical hypoxia (oxygen starvation).
            – That you decided yourself that your daughter had “vaccine encephalitis” after reading a book that suggested this could affect neonates (it doesn’t). You never even bothered to take her to a doctor, despite what you claim were 4 days of severe neurological symptoms.

            Go away, and take your lies with you as you leave.

          • ciaparker2

            My brother and I reacted to the DPT with vaccine encephalitis as infants, which caused us to grow up with highly-verbal Asperger’s. No one in my family had autism until this generation. My brother’s older son has Asperger’s, but finished college and won a lot of awards for mathematics. My daughter reacted to the hep-b vaccine at birth, given without permission, with four days and nights of screaming syndrome, vaccine encephalitis. Had developed two words by 18 months, both erased as soon as she got the DTaP booster, diagnosed with autism two months later. Later with aphasia, stroke-like damage to the language center of her brain. Damage, not congenital. My cousin has a daughter, one of twins, who reacted to vaccines with autism and is institutionalized for it. So three cases of autism (my nephew’s case is more severe than my brother’s and my cases were, and to this day no one else, including him, knows that he and I have Asperger’s) in the new generation. Thirteen cousins plus us in our generation, all typical enough to be independent and self-supporting. And this scenario has taken place in the families of millions, because autism only occurred (since the DPT in 1948) in three in 10,000. Now it’s one in forty. So that’s MILLIONS of families that were all normal, or maybe quiet and bookish, until THIS generation with the landslide of autism autism, severely affected, never independent, low- or non-verbal.

          • Mike Stevens

            Neurexin gene deletions are quite problematic in your family, I realise.
            I am sorry for your daughter.

          • ciaparker2

            And I had measles and chickenpox as a child. Maybe a subclinical case of mumps, I don’t know. Maybe we’ll both get it now that there are often outbreaks of it. As an adult I have also had pertussis, hep-A, rotavirus, and many flus. And I’m glad I got them all. They were all typical cases, not serious. But the MS from a reaction to a tetanus booster has been really bad.

            When I was pregnant I found out I had rubella antibodies, meaning that I had had it as a child and no one even realized it. And the antibodies were still protecting me during my pregnancy decades later.

            Sick patients should stay in bed and be well-nursed, well-hydrated, no fever reducers, appropriate vitamin, naturopathic, and homeopathic remedies. Even though the childhood diseases are usually mild, they should be respected and appropriate care given.

          • Who?

            I had measles and a child and was extremely ill for weeks. I had mumps twice as a child, the first time mildly, the second time seriously.

            Both were miserable, painful, debilitating experiences.

            Do explain how a ‘mild’ illness needs treatment at all? Let alone with unicorn sprinkles (aka ‘appropriate vitamin, naturopathic and homeopathic remedies)? Or are those to make you feel better, like you’re doing something?

            And what kind of person refuses pain and fever relief for a person in pain or with a fever?

          • maidmarian555

            I caught chickenpox from my brother at 16 (it was horrible. HORRIBLE). We don’t vax for that here (and I managed to catch it off him even though he was in hospital for an unrelated condition at the time and was put in isolation the second they realised he had it). Funnily enough, being a vaccinated household, when he got mumps some years before at 9, I never got it. And when I caught rubella at 12 and was the sickest I’ve been in my life (projectile vomiting out my nose. OUT MY NOSE!) he never caught that. And then these people come in here saying these illnesses are “no big deal” and “vaccines don’t work”. I say ha! Ha! Bullshit! They are a big deal (even if you’re left with no complications- and apparently complications don’t include scarring like the super-sexy permanent marks I’ve got all over my breasts from CP) and vaccines definitely do work! There’s no good reason to put your beloved child through any of that shit. At all. At all!!

          • Who?

            That is miserable. These diseases are miserable. I have a little CP scar right between my eyebrows, and one on my knee, but not too many others.

            My vaccinated 18 year old niece is recovering from whooping cough, having caught it in emergency when she was there with my brother after he was taken ill at home.

            She wasn’t too ill, but it disrupted her own training (she’s doing some pre-nursing courses) and has affected her final year at school. But hey, the unvaccinated family in the next cubicle had all their rights protected, so that’s the main thing.

          • Diet dee

            The Fever is the body s response to infection, reduce the fever and you might let that infection grow out of control, if you teat pain meds like candy you can damage liver or die.

          • Azuran

            I like how the only two option availlable to you are: ‘let them suffer’ or ‘give pain meds like candy’
            All of us, meanwhile, leave in the world of the intelligent people. Who understand that correctly treating pain and discomfort is an important part of treatment. No one is saying that meds should be given like candy.
            As for fever, sure, it’s a response of the body, doesn’t means it’s 100% positive, or even generally a good thing. A too high fever can cause damages.

            What do you think my patients do when they have a fever? They feel like crap, they stop eating, they stop drinking and just roll up miserably in a corner.
            When you treat the fever, in a matter of hours, they get better, they start eating, they start drinking and get more energy and generally heal pretty fast.
            If you don’t treat them early on, then they end up being dehydrated, they lose weight and are more likely to have important complication which requires much more aggressive treatment.

          • N

            Your patients are animals, I guess? I could write the exact same about my children. How funny.

          • Azuran

            Indeed they are ^^. Treating animals in a lot like treating babies and young children in some cases. They sure as hell don’t have a clue or care about what is good for them.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            That’s very much the case. Pediatrics is very similar to vet med.

          • momofone

            My son recently had his tonsils removed. The ENT emphasized the importance of pain management from the beginning. For one thing, it’s inhumane to let (or, in the case of some commenters, force) someone to suffer when there is a safe way to alleviate pain, and for another, as you said, people–and animals–whose pain is effectively managed are able to do other important things like eating and sleeping, which also affect recovery time. I will never understand how people choose misbegotten ideology over their children’s well-being.

          • N

            But but but, tonsils are important. They shouldn’t be removed! That is clearly a vaccine injury!!! See it is like with interventions at birth. Just one US will be enough to end you in an emergency c-section. AND just one vaccine will start a cascade of other interventions, like needing fever medication, or tonsil-removing!

          • ciaparker2

            A healthy immune system is the best thing you can provide your child, which means breastfeeding until self-weaning, nutritious organic food, and few or no antibiotics, drugs, or vaccines. And it is essential that the child go through a number of contagious illnesses, preferably as many as possible of the formerly universal childhood diseases, to develop and train his immune system. Surely you don’t want to produce snowflakes that melt at the first ray of sunlight that touches them.

          • Mike Stevens

            The ones with the snowflake kids are people like you Cia.
            Afraid they will melt if they ever come near a needle.

          • momofone

            You fucking presumptuous ass. My son developed a rare syndrome related to strep infection and does not have to be exposed to get sick. Again, you talk in generalities. I will be taking my medical advice from actual medical professionals rather than wanna-bes who like the sound of their own words.

          • Who?

            That’s it? If you stick to the packet directions, you’ll be fine.

          • Diet dee

            These drug cause about 40k deaths a year in the USA

          • Box of Salt

            Diet dee “These drug cause about 40k deaths”
            Please be more specific. Which drugs, and how many deaths each?

          • Diet dee

            “Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone.” (Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy”, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S)
            NSAIDs ARE ESTIMATED TO KILL ABOUT 40K A YEAR when otc use is factored in.

          • Nick Sanders

            And what percentage are caused by usage following the proper guidelines compared with those caused by misuse?

          • Box of Salt

            Diet dee
            (a) there’s more than one NSAID.
            (b) link please to The American Journal of Medicine
            (c) you can pry my ibuprofen out of cold dead hands. But then, you posted that you’re male, and as such you will never experience some of the conditions that ibuprofen treats very effectively.
            (d) see (c). Risk vs benefit. I benefit from appropriate use, improving the quality of my life and those around me, and will continue using it.

          • Who?

            Let’s assume that this is an accurate representation of a respectable piece of research-actual research, not you sweatily inputting nonsense to the internet style ‘research’.

            I thought you were all for the odd death in pursuit of one’s own views about quality of life?

            You’re quite happy for people-children, babies-to die of entirely preventable diseases, in order to satisfy their parents’ world view, but you have an attack of the vapours about adults dying from using drugs that demonstrably improve their quality of life while they are using them?

            You are a hypocrite, aren’t you?

          • Mike Stevens

            1. I say bring back Vioxx… It didn’t have those complications.
            😉
            2. NSAID gastrointestinal bleeding relates primarily to its regular use as an anti-inflammatory drug, not its occasional use as an antipyretic. Paracetamol/acetaminophen is the usual choice for that.

          • Diet dee

            Good ole’ Vioxx… whats the worse that could happened

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            What’s the relative risk of cardiac complications with Vioxx? How would you balance that against the decreased risk of polyps in high risk patients and the need for more options for pain control? Consider that some people went from Vioxx to opiate pain medications when Vioxx was pulled from the market.

          • Who?

            Exactly-if fully informed, including of relative risks, a patient can make an informed decision.

            No one knows if they are making a ‘right’ decision, ever. And what is the best compromise for each person is a very personal matter.

          • Diet dee

            this was the humor part of the discussion

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You do know that 1998 was nearly 20 years ago now, right? That things might have changed just a tiny bit, perhaps because the risks were highlighted and people considered the best methods for reducing the risk?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I had scarlet fever as a child. Seemed mild and no one, including me, realized I’d lost 50% of my hearing for several weeks.

          • Who?

            Mild, right?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i thought i had laryngitis, lol. Not that i knew the word

          • N

            My father in law is almost deaf now at not yet 80. Why? According to the doctors because as a child he had a lot of ear infections where nowadays children would get antibiotics. Back then, no antibiotics, but only the sort of care ciaparker2 talks about. No one ever thought he would get almost deaf because of it. Ha. I take antibiotics for my children when needed.

          • shay simmons

            “Appropriate care” is not vitamins, naturopathy, or homeopathic nostrums.

          • Who?

            But if it was only a ‘mild illness’, and the point was to give the ‘carer’ something to talk about on Facebook, describing how caring and wonderful they are, then absent the comfort buying this nonsense gives to the charlatans who sell it, little harm is done by giving them.

            For me the trouble is she refuses to provide medication that will actually help with the very miserable symptoms, pain and fever. But then someone feverish and in pain is more work to look after, so I guess it suits her better to keep the child in that state. More bragging rights.

            And then if the child really gets sick, martyr mother can get on and complain about the mean doctors, assuming she can drag herself away from her chorus line of supporters long enough to get some proper help.

            ciaparker2 really rubs me up the wrong way.

          • N

            I don’t like having pain and fever myself. How could I watch my children go through it, without helping?

          • Who?

            You wouldn’t, I wouldn’t.

            Only a fanatic, given the choice, would leave them to suffer.

          • ciaparker2

            You have to consider whether you prefer them to have neurological and autoimmune diseases from vaccines, plus the trauma of the shot itself, or whether you prefer them to have a healthy immune system for life, which will protect them now and in the future from many chronic diseases, including cancer, if they are allowed to go through a number of childhood illnesses and other febrile illnesses during childhood. You can’t protect them from all discomfort forever. Are you going to keep them from riding a bike (and taking some falls), driving a car, taking many stressful exams, eventually taking very difficult and stressful professional exams? Probably not, because that’s life. Better to go through illnesses well-nursed in a loving home than to go through life vaccine-damaged and immunodeficient.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Wrong and perfectly illustrates ignorance and gullibility.

          • momofone

            Bless your heart.

            I had measles, rubella, and chicken pox. I still developed cancer as a young adult due to a genetic mutation in my family. I even had febrile seizures during chicken pox, and even that did not protect me–imagine that! That’s because it’s BS. It sounds good, and it gives gullible people like you the idea that you have control over it all, but it’s pure BS. You can eat organic all day every day, and you can get now-preventable illnesses, and you can feel smug and superior as you watch your children suffer, and the shit can still hit the fan. I hope for your sake that it won’t, but I also hope if it does, that you get to someone who can actually help, and not someone who sees dollar signs from all the supplements they can sell you.

          • Who?

            Abject nonsense from beginning to end.

          • The trauma of the shot itself? 5 minutes of crying isn’t exactly trauma for a 2 month old. They cry longer and harder for being hungry, wet, tired, colicky, overstimulated, or just for no reason at all.

          • Who?

            She meant the trauma for her…

          • sabelmouse

            who says no helping? of course you’d nurse them appropriately.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Our kids have not had the measles, but did have hand/foot/mouth. It was so painful they couldn’t swallow. How would nursing help something like that if it happened with measles?

          • Who?

            To be fair to sabelmouse, I think the reference is to providing nursing care rather than breastfeeding.

            To be reasonable though, part of actual nursing care is doing what you usefully can, not just martyring mother in the style of cia, so providing some pain and fever relief would, for most of us, be standard. But if, as in sabel’s and cia’s cases, the point is not to comfort the ill but to earn supermother hero status, why would you?

          • sabelmouse

            measles has different symptoms. nothing compared to the above.
            nursing helps in different ways. to keep someone from getting worse /dying, or simply to make them more comfortable.
            the worst hing about measles these days is NOT being able to let kids watch tv/play games.
            they are likely to get bored unless they are used to entertaining themselves/like being read to/people will do that/similar things.
            i had hand foot and mouth together with my son when he was a year or so. we were both truly miserable.
            no other childhood illness my children, or i had was as bad.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, me too!

          • Diet dee

            they give vitamin A for measles treatment ,,, just saying

          • Azuran

            Not saying it can’t be part of a proper treatment. But vitamins alone are not a proper treatment.

          • N

            No, not vitamins, but fruit, you know. After all, an apple a day keeps the doctor away. … No wait, apples contain n-i-c-o-t-thingy, something like in cigarettes. Oh, no. We are doomed!

          • ciaparker2

            The only treatments for measles if there are no bacterial complications, and usually there aren’t, are vitamin A and herbal or homeopathic treatments. Vitamin A halves the mortality in malnourished children in Africa, and prevents complications in any measles patients. It would cut the death rate to close to zero if it were routinely given to all measles patients as soon as it were realized they had measles. Allopathic medicine has nothing to treat measles.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Wrong and a perfect illustration of ignorance and gullibility.

          • shay simmons

            Only if the patient has a pre-existing vitamin A deficiency — just saying.

          • ciaparker2

            But a California study showed that even many well-nourished American children with measles had a vitamin A deficiency because the disease uses up existing stores of vitamin A very quickly. But of course you would be unwilling to spend even the meager pennies a dose needed, two doses total, 24 hours apart, to provide life-saving vitamin A to measles patients. If it’s not a super-expensive, super-profitable pharma drug, bah, humbug!

            A 1992 California study found that half of children hospitalized with measles were deficient in vitamin A, while none of the uninfected controls showed any deficiency. “We studied 20 children with measles in Long Beach, CA, and found that 50% were vitamin A deficient. This frequency among presumably well-nourished American children supports evaluation of vitamin A status as a part of acute management of measles in the US.” Antonio Arrieta, MD, “Vitamin A Levels in Children with Measles Lonng Beach, CA,” The J of Pediatrics, July 1992, p 75.

          • shay simmons

            Your cite does not contradict my statement. It is also 25 years old.

          • ciaparker2

            What difference does it make? Why would well-nourished American children now be resistant to having their stores of vitamin A depleted by measles where they were often not resistant in 1992?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Could you please stop babbling nonsense? You are making a fool of yourself.

          • ciaparker2

            So again, what are you saying? That American children in 1992 were actually ill-nourished and so had vitamin A deficiencies when our entire society thought they were healthy and well-nourished? That at this time, when neurological and autoimmune disease is orders of magnitude more common in our children now than it was then (because of the vaccine epidemic), that NOW no one has a vitamin A deficiency, so even if they get measles, there’s no point at all in picking up a five dollar bottle of vitamin A tablets at WalMart to give to your sick child?
            I really don’t care at all what you do with your children. When I was a child, no one knew about how vitamin A prevented the complications of measles, which can occasionally be dangerous, and we all did fine anyway when we got measles. We were actually very well-nourished and lived in comfortable homes, so measles was just a rite of passage for us, which improved our immune functioning for life. But personally, if my daughter gets measles (God wiling, I knew enough to refuse the MMR for her even back in 2001), I would definitely give her the appropriate dose of vitamin A.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But the historical evidence and the evidence from other countries around the world shows that you are wrong.

            I’m curious. Why do you think the majority of scientists, physicians and public health officials around the world are wrong, but you, a layperson with no training in immunology are right? Why should anyone believe you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia has previously claimed to know more about Hepatitis B than the CDC, the WHO and the AMA put together!
            Thought you should know…

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            God willing? You’re hoping your kid *gets* measles? You are mad.

          • shay simmons

            My statement was that treatment with Vitamin A only works when the patient has a Vitamin A deficiency. Your cite doesn’t contradict that…at all.

          • Daleth

            Why would well-nourished American children now be resistant to having
            their stores of vitamin A depleted by measles where they were often not
            resistant in 1992?

            The bigger question is why would you want kids to be infected with measles instead of just getting the MMR shot, when measles–in addition to being a horribly unpleasant, highly contagious disease with potentially life-altering or fatal consequences–also makes many patients vitamin A deficient?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Wrong and perfectly illustrates ignorance and gullibility.

          • rosewater1

            My significant other (since I’m 50 & he’s 66 it feels ridiculous to call him my boyfriend) had heart surgery to repair his mitral valve right before the presidential election. Vitamin C was one of his post op meds. Along with Lasix, Labetelol, and Lisinopril. Even though he is very crunchy-eats all organic, sees a chiropractor and an acupuncturist, takes tons of vitamins, practices homeopathy-he followed instructions to the letter. His recovery is near flawless.

            Vitamins aren’t valueless. And they can be very useful medically. But they are NOT a panacea that will fix everything. And they sure as shit don’t replace modern medicine.

          • Mike Stevens

            For those who are deficient in it. Just saying.
            And vaccine would avert it in the first place. Just saying.

          • Diet dee

            Would vitamin deficienct immune system respond poorly to vaccine.

          • Azuran

            I raise you: I had Chicken pox (before the vaccine came out), and the Flu twice. That’s it. Otherwise, perfectly healthy, not taking any kind of medication.
            I never got any of those VPD disease and as a bonus, I’m immune (my antibodies have also been checked since I’m pregnant)

            Seems to me you are not that healthy.

          • FallsAngel

            No, to hear cia tell it she is terribly un-healthy! Autism, MS, God knows what else!

          • Who?

            All of which her homeopathy and vitamins couldn’t avert!!!

          • FallsAngel

            Right! She’s a poor advertisement for woo if there ever was one!

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s all that homeopathy she uses.

          • Sue

            It sounds highly unlilkely that your MS is “a reaction to a tetanus booster”, which is a toxoid.

            ANd “appropriate” naturopathic and homeopathic remedies”? That’ embarrassing.

            I call BS on both.

          • ciaparker2

            Both my arms were paralyzed starting the same day as I got the tetanus booster, lasting several days at that time. This is a well-known infrequent reaction to the tetanus vaccine. Later, when a high fever pulled the stored vaccine mercury from my bones, my severe permanent insomnia began, then the double vision, later the ataxia, dizziness, and numbness which were diagnosed by MRI as MS. In one attack my left arm and leg were paralyzed for a month. I’m working hard now to chelate the vaccine mercury from my brain and from my body, and hope one day to be cured of MS.

            There are many homeopathic remedies appropriate for any disease complications. It is not wise to use them for a normal course of any disease. For instance, bryonia will bring out a measles rash which is slow to appear.

            Well, I’m not embarrassed. And I really couldn’t care less what your opinion is of what I say. I hope to educate people new to this area, who are genuinely and rightly concerned about the dangers of vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Both my arms were paralyzed starting the same day as I got the tetanus booster, lasting several days at that time. This is a well-known infrequent reaction to the tetanus vaccine.”

            Utter garbage.
            The rare reaction to tetanus vaccine you describe (brachial neuritis) takes around 10 days to develop. It is unilateral, affecting the arm which received he vaccine shot.

            Your “bilateral, same day paralysis” is typical of a psychogenic reaction post vaccination.

            The rest of your comment is also garbage.

          • ciaparker2

            It is what happened to me, and a vaccine caused it. At the time it was no big deal, my roommate Karlene helped me in the cafeteria and to get dressed, and it wore off after several days.

            Ha ha! I bought a copy of Plotkin and Mortimer’s Vaccines a couple of months ago, second edition was the most I could afford, and it is too dense to just read through from cover to cover. But I JUST looked up the tetanus vaccine in it, and found: on page 77, “Several reports have documented instances of peripheral neuropathy hours to weeks after inoculation with tetanus toxoid (footnotes 299-302, I’ll copy them out if you ask me to). One patient had relapsing signs and symptoms after repeated doses of toxoid. …Although anecdotal, the reports are consistent with neuropathy as a manifestation of immune complex disease,..” On page 75: “The incidence and severity of adverse events, particularly local reactions, following administration of tetanus toxoid, may be influenced by the number of prior doses, the toxoid dosage, the presence of adjuvant..” I said a few weeks ago that that was my NINTH tetanus-containing shot: I reacted to the first with days of screaming (encephalitis), and eventually got eight by the age of eleven, when it shouldn’t have been more than six by the age of fifteen. And everyone in my family is exquisitely prone to vaccine damage anyway.

            So go look THAT up, Mike. Peripheral neuropathy has occurred from HOURS to weeks after injection! And, as I have said, it’s what happened to me.

          • Who?

            It happened after the vax, not because of it.

            I take it you think ‘…particularly local reactions…’ means more than a lump and a bit of local heat.

            Chances are you were experiencing symptoms before the vax that you were ignoring or putting down to insufficient doses of unicorn sprinkles.

            MS is a horrible disease-let’s not make light of it by pretending it is a vaccine injury.

          • Daleth

            Later, when a high fever pulled the stored vaccine mercury from my bones…

            Ethyl mercury (the type used in vaccines) is not stored in the body. Unlike methyl mercury (the type found in tuna and other fish), ethyl mercury does not bioaccumulate; it is rapidly metabolized, i.e., eliminated from the body.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylmercury

            So no, nothing “pulled the stored vaccine mercury from your bones” because there wasn’t any there to pull.

            By the way, how much later was the “later” you refer to? I’m just interested because I’m still curious why you decided there was a causal relationship between your tetanus shot and your development of MS.

          • ciaparker2

            “Tetanus vaccine manufacturers acknowledge in their own package inserts that neurological disorders such as Guillain-Barre syndrome (paralysis), brachial plexus neuropathies, and EEG disturbances with encephalopathy, have been reported following the shot. (Aventis Pasteur PI) In addition,’cases of demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system have been reported following some tetanus toxoid -containing vaccines or tetanus and diphtheria toxoid-containing vaccines.'”(ibid)

          • maidmarian555

            I take it you got an enormous payout from the vaccine companies then…..or did you just read another case and decide you had the same symptoms?

          • Mike Stevens

            Got it in one!

          • Mike Stevens

            It takes 10 days, Cia.
            Paralysis on the day of tetanus vaccination is likely to be psychogenic.

          • Juana

            I was vaccinated against rubella in my early teens. When I was pregnant, I found out that I had rubella antibodies, and the antibodies were still protecting me during my pregnancy decades later.

            My anecdote vs. your anecdote.

            Appropriate care is something that actually works. Like, you know, vaccines to prevent them in the first place.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Amazing! Me too! i got it as a small child and still had antibodies when pregnant at 39!

          • ciaparker2

            I’ve read that the rubella antibodies from vaccination last an average of nine years after vaccination. Everyone must be aware of the fact that vaccine immunity eventually wears off, and that the vaccine is dangerous, often causing arthritis in the vaccinee, which is sometimes severe and permanent. I’m glad I got natural rubella as a small child, also measles, possibly mumps.

          • maidmarian555

            You’re clearly incapable of recalling how horrible rubella is. If you were you wouldn’t wish it on anybody else. I had it at 12. I was violently ill. I remember it very clearly because of how sick I got. I am not glad I went through that at all. I am glad my vaccinated little brother didn’t catch it though. #justsaying

          • ciaparker2

            How unusual! All the medical sources say that it is a very mild disease in babies, children, and adults alike, causing at most a very mild rash, often imperceptible, and then permanent immunity. But then there are exceptions to every rule. I had my arms paralyzed by a tetanus shot, the beginning of my MS, which was a fairly unusual reaction.
            Again, I’d urge everyone to research the issues carefully before making the vaccine decision. There are extremely serious risks on both sides.

          • Mike Stevens

            You forgot the terrible arthritis that it causes, Cia.
            It’s worse than that caused by vaccine, and according to you, that is frequent and really bad, right?

          • Daleth

            I had my arms paralyzed by a tetanus shot, the beginning of my MS

            Forty years of scientific studies have shown that getting the tetanus shot is actually associated with a 33% LOWER risk of multiple sclerosis than not getting it. Here’s the metastudy on that:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16864810
            And I’m not aware of any studies that suggest any connection between getting the shot and getting MS.

            My intuition tells me that you got the tetanus shot at around the age when MS usually begins to manifest, right? That is, between ages 20 and 50, and particularly in the early to mid-30s (the average age at onset is 34)?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You are kind. My intuition is that the Chia pet is making it all up.

          • sabelmouse

            it might have been easier had you been younger. i barely noticed it, [ditto my children] at least it didn’t itch like the chickenpox. i had measles at 13 and fainted, had the doctor somewhat worried but i was ok after that.

          • maidmarian555

            I do doubt that. If I’d got it younger then I’d probably not remember it so well, nor would I have been able to articulate how awful I felt. Chickenpox was definitely itchier (I got that at 16 so also remember it well) but I didn’t suffer with the constant nausea like I did with rubella. Nor did I vomit so violently in the back of a car that I managed to get it over the top of the seat in front and all down the driver (who I would bet never, ever told a kid who told him they ‘didn’t feel too good’ that he wasn’t pulling over and it wasn’t far to go so they’d be fine ever again). I essentially had a ‘mild’ case. No hospitalisation, no long-term consequences. But it was horrible. And completely avoidable had my mother marched me to the doctor for my boosters the second I turned 12 instead of waiting until after I went to summer camp.

          • sabelmouse

            why did you get everything so late?and what do you mean booster? where you actually vaccinated?

          • maidmarian555

            Idk, this was in the early nineties. I had been already been vaccinated as a young child and was due an MMR booster (as far as I know). Which I got after I had rubella. I have no idea if that was the proper schedule at the time. I was 12.

          • sabelmouse

            have you considered that you might have had it so bad because you were vaccinated and got the illness anyways?

          • Acleron

            Or it might have been sabelmouse’s thought waves travelling back in time to make maidmarian555 feel worse. Both are equally likely.

          • sabelmouse

            awe,you’re trying to be funny and failing miserably.

          • MaineJen

            IDK, I think that was pretty darn amusing. What’s also amusing is how you’re tying yourself into absolute knots trying to account for maidmarian’s miserable experience of what is supposed to be a “mild” disease.

          • sabelmouse

            who’s tying themselves in knots?

          • maidmarian555

            No.

          • sabelmouse

            you should.

          • maidmarian555

            Just so I’m clear, rather than concede that even ‘mild’ cases of VPD can be pretty miserable experiences for those that suffer through them, you’ve come up with a wild theory that my personal experience of rubella was somehow caused by a vaccine I received in the early eighties? Years before I caught rubella? Wow. I’m sold. Funny how none of my doctors have ever suggested that, maybe I should get all my medical advice from random people online now……..

          • sabelmouse

            doctors rarely suggest anything negative about a vaccine.
            so you got something you were vaxxed for and shouldn’t have got, else what is the vax for?
            and it was worse than 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999 of all people who have had it.
            and you make out that’s simply because rubella is worse than most think?

          • maidmarian555

            Come on. I’ve had rubella and I had it later than a lot of kids get it. I remember it, many don’t. My personal experience was mild but miserable. You just completely invented a reason why that might be in your head because my personal experience doesn’t fit your narrative. Many illnesses are experienced in different degrees of severity by different people. You have no guarantee what your own will be like, nor that of your children if you don’t vaccinate at all. No vaccine is 100% effective. And they changed the schedule and the vaccine to the MMR for a reason. If I had to hazard a guess maybe it was because the old vaccines and schedules weren’t as effective as those we have now.

          • sabelmouse

            sure!

          • Daleth

            doctors rarely suggest anything negative about a vaccine.

            If you weren’t an ignorant antivaxxer, you would know that before giving you or your children any shots doctors give you PAGES of information on the potential aftereffects, side effects and complications of the vaccine they’re about to administer.

            Oddly, Mother Nature provides no such information re: the complications, side effects etc. of getting the actual disease. But you can get that info from doctors, too.

          • sabelmouse

            the only time i ever saw more that a small advertisement leaflet , if that , was when i asked my doctor for proper info on the then new meningitis vaccine and she gave me her own folder. it was about 100 or so pages and very informative and made clear that getting the vaccine for my children would be idiotic.
            most of the time i have not received more that a verbal ” all save and ok, don’t worry about it” , and that was after asking a lot of questions.
            this goes for myself, and my children in 3 different countries over a period of several decades.

          • Daleth

            this goes for myself, and my children in 3 different countries over a period of several decades

            Unless one of those three countries was the US, we are not talking about the same thing. I have no idea how things work (or worked decades ago) in the three unnamed countries you mention, but anyone who goes to a doctor in the US these days will get at least a full page of information, in newspaper-sized font (so it’s a good deal of information), about the risks and benefits of whatever vaccine they are considering getting.

          • sabelmouse

            no, they are germany, the netherlands, and ireland. but i’ve heard/read that from people in the usa as well.
            and these days? how long since it started?

          • Daleth

            and these days? how long since it started?

            I’ve been getting various vaccines (annual flu shot, boosters etc.) as an adult in the US since the 1990s and have never NOT gotten an information sheet at least one full page long, PER VACCINE.

          • sabelmouse

            1 whole page! wow!

          • Daleth

            It’s apparently more than you got, so can the sarcasm. And I’m referring to a single-spaced page in 10 or 12-point font, very often double sided.

          • sabelmouse

            double sided is strictly speaking 2 pages. yes, more than i got. but enough to call it INFORMED consent?

          • Daleth

            Of course.

            Have you heard of bullet points? Or lists? They enable concision and rapid transmission of information, like so:
            The risks of this vaccine include:
            * Risk (0.5% of recipients), risk (x%), risk (y%), risk (z%)….
            The benefits of this vaccine include:
            * Benefit (96.2% efficacy), benefit (x%), benefit (y%)…
            * Risk X is Z% more likely in patients who have yada condition, so this vaccine is not recommended for such patients.
            * Risk Y is somewhat more likely (0.x%) in yada type of patients, so discuss your medical history with your doctor before getting this vaccine.

            …and so forth. Believe me, the hospital’s lawyers wouldn’t let them hand these leaflets out if it were insufficient for informed consent. FYI the definition of informed consent is not “scare the living daylights out of everyone with extremely detailed, highly speculative risks, and make sure you use lots of medical terminology and long words with Latin roots so that readers are not just scared but also confused.”

          • sabelmouse

            most people don’t get vaxxed in hospital. and suing for vaccine damage is nigh impossible.

          • Daleth

            Doctors have lawyers too and I’ve gotten identical disclosure/informed consent forms from doctors in private practice as I have in hospitals.

            Suing for vaccine damage is actually incredibly easy–much easier, faster and cheaper than a normal civil lawsuit. You simply file a petition (you can do this yourself, no lawyer needed, though most people use a lawyer–and why not, since unlike almost every other kind of lawsuit, your attorney’s fees are covered if you win). Then you either (1) automatically win, if your injury is on the vaccine injury table (https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf); or (2) win the normal way people win in lawsuits. Here’s the process:
            https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

            Even if there weren’t a separate vaccine court (see process above), you wouldn’t sue the doctor who gave you the shot for the vaccine injury. Imagine that a batch of chemotherapy drugs go out that somehow got tainted during the manufacturing process by a lethal poison–you wouldn’t sue the doctor who gave you the drugs, you’d sue the company that made them.

            But where informed consent comes in is that you can sue a doctor for battery if they do something to you without informed consent. Not because you get a vaccine injury, but just because you had something done to you without consent.

          • Box of Salt

            Here in the US, the Vaccine Information Sheets (VIS) also include information on how to make a VAERS report, and how to contact the NVCIP. This information is on every single VIS for every single vaccine, and is give to every parent every single time. With 2 kids, I had so many copies of some of them I had to purge my files of the extras.

            In addition, if you’ve lost your sheet of paper, you can obtain a copy from the CDC website: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/index.html

            sabelmouse, trying to scare today’s new parents out of vaccinating their children with stories of outdated policies and information that you never understood correctly in the first place is unethical on your part.

          • maidmarian555

            A quick Google tells me that MMR was introduced in the UK to replace single vaccines in 1988 (I’d have been 8 at the time). Which may explain the schedule difference compared with what we have now and why I was due boosters at 12.

          • sabelmouse

            so you were vaccinated and got the illness anyways?!

          • Mike Stevens

            “…the MMR vaccine is dangerous, often causing arthritis in the vaccinee, which is sometimes severe and permanent.”

            Nonsense.

            Please define “OFTEN” for us Cia.
            Is it 5%, 20%, 60% of the time, or what?
            Please tell us, and give a citation to support your claim.
            If you do your reading, you will see that the reaction is unheard of in prepubertal girls, and is confined to older vaccinees only.
            It doesn’t happen following childhood MMR vaccination, in other words.

            And I hope you do realise that arthropathy from NATURAL rubella is far more frequent than from the vaccine?

          • FallsAngel

            This is a good reason to give the MMR to toddlers, rather than waiting until adolescence for the rubella portion.

          • Mike Stevens

            Indeed.
            Of course, Cia is an advocate of giving rubella vaccine to adolescent girls only. It’s as though she wants them to get arthritis, and wants women to get rubella in pregnancy.

          • ciaparker2

            Never said that. I advocate waiting until the girl has had time to get rubella naturally, and then, if she doesn’t have antibodies, to make sure she understands the potential problem and thinks about it. She might take the rubella vaccine or, better, the nosode. We may one day soon have the option of being deliberately infected with the disease, which is very mild for everyone except fetuses in the first months of development. Or the girl might choose to do nothing, which might be the best thing to do, it’s unlikely that she’d be infected by someone with rubella in the first months of pregnancy.
            I think it would be better to take the nosode, as it would not cause arthritis, but would prevent rubella.

          • Mike Stevens

            Homeopathy!!!!!
            It cures everything!!

          • MaineJen

            A nosode? You’d rather a kid be exposed to potentially infectious tissue or bodily fluids from a sick person? Best case: the homeopathic “remedy” has been diluted to the point that it is just water, in which case it will do nothing and the person gains no immunity.

          • Acleron

            Considering the expensive water and sugar companies’ lack of any quality control, could you trust them to wash away any infective material?

          • MaineJen

            Well, that would be the worst case: that the ‘cure’ would actually end up spreading the disease it’s trying to prevent.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Wait, now vaccines are responsible for arthritis? Goodness, is there any problem they don’t cause?

            They are like the Backsun from Winnie-the-Pooh

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Funny, it’s been nearly 40 years since I got the rubella vaccine and my immunity is still active, as demonstrated in my recent pregnancy

          • MaineJen

            It’s truly amazing how many of us were vaccinated as children, yet managed to retain our immunity into our 30s when we wanted to have children!

          • FallsAngel

            Well, you read that on some anti-vax pile. Since CRS has been virtually eliminated in the US, I think your “source” was full of it.

          • Daleth

            Natural rubella can also cause arthritis (see link below, or google it yourself). It causes arthritis in up to 70% of women who get rubella, which, of course, is way the hell higher than the rate of arthritis among vaccinated people.

            There is nothing special about “natural immunity” over the vaccine version, except that you usually will have lifelong immunity instead of needing boosters. That advantage comes at a high cost: you have a much higher risk of side effects (like arthritis), and rubella, unlike the vaccine, can cause miscarriages, stillbirths and the birth of severely impaired babies.

            https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/about/complications.html

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Rubella is indeed very mild in the born. Wrecks havoc in the first 3 months after conception. MIL thought it’d been a cold until she realized my husband had been born blind.
            It’s people like you who annoy us so much. Contrary to your likely opinion, not only can he wipe his own butt, he can also wipe both kids’ diapered butts

          • Azuran

            For that matter, Zika is a pretty milk to light disease. Many people don’t even know they get it, those who do generally have flu like symptoms.
            But it wrecks havoc in unborn babies.
            I bet Cia would find a way to argue against getting a vaccine for it.

          • Box of Salt

            “Zika is a pretty milk to light disease . . . But it wrecks havoc in unborn babies.”

            And as we learn more, it turns out worse that we originally thought:
            http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/12/14/negative-effects-of-zika-during-pregnancy-more-common-than-realized/#7836b85369f2

          • Mike Stevens

            Channeling Cia Parker…
            “Well of course, it only seems to affect poor, foreign people with dark skins. As healthy WASPS don’t suffer microcephalic babies, why develop a vaccine? And if we get it, I am sure homeopathy, avoidance of fever reducers, and mega doses of vitamin A will keep us safe. In fact Zika is beneficial… I wish we could all get it!”

            How’d I do?

          • Acleron

            8/10, you didn’t quite get that complete lack of compassion and empathy.

          • sabelmouse

            so you object to somebody having natural immunity to rubella?

          • Azuran

            Are you acting like an idiot of purpose?
            We don’t object to people having natural immunity per say. We object the idea that relying on natural immunity is better and that it should be the way to go.
            Sure, in some cases, it last longer. But, you have to actually get sick to get immunity. And you can never know when or even if you are going to get the disease in order to get the immunity.
            This makes natural immunity unreliable. Since it can leave you vulnerable to the disease at the worst time possible, like while you are pregnant.

          • sabelmouse

            and yet the person i replied to stated that rubella was very mild in the born.
            vaccines don’t always take and we don’t know how long their positive effect, if there is one , lasts. super reliable?
            apparently there ‘s a way to check before you get pregnant.
            some suggest that that being done in puberty would be better than vaccinating toddlers.

          • shay simmons

            some suggest that that being done in puberty would be better than vaccinating toddlers.

            And these “some” would be?

          • sabelmouse

            read more. inform yourself.

          • shay simmons

            So you can’t back up your claim?

          • DO YOUR RESEARCH! 😉

          • shay simmons

            Yes…sabel-speak for “I haven’t a clue!”

          • sabelmouse

            it’s a ridiculous question. if you were well informed you would know.

          • shay simmons

            You can’t back up your claim. Got it.

          • sabelmouse

            you can’t see past your script.

          • shay simmons

            Have you found that support for your claim yet, sabel? http://disq.us/p/1eqgqgr

          • momofone

            If you were well-informed you would have no trouble answering, with citations.

          • FallsAngel

            There is no country on earth that recommends that. “Some” must be “some anti-vax nutcakes”.

          • sabelmouse

            who was talking about a country?

          • FallsAngel

            I’m just wondering who these “some” are! I can’t find any recommendations to hold off on rubella vaccine until adolescence anywhere. You tell me, you’re the one who brought this up.

          • momofone

            “read more. inform yourself.”

            Translated: “Because I can’t offer anything to support my claims; I just prefer my ignorance.”

          • Mike Stevens

            The old recommendations were for girls to get vaxed for rubella at puberty.
            That didn’t work out too well, did it?

          • sabelmouse

            didn’t it?

          • Mike Stevens

            Nope.
            Reliance on voluntary vaccinating half the population only at age 12 meant rubella continued to circulate widely in the population.
            This meant pregnant women who might not be immune to rubella (because not all got rubella in childhood, and many skipped vaccination) continued to miscarry babies and give birth to brain damaged, autistic or severely congenitally deformed infants.

            Despite the advice to vaccinate adolescents in the uk from 1970, there were over 7000 miscarriages, terminations or CRS cases in the UK until MMR was introduced, since when cases plummeted significantly. Globally, there are still over 100,000 cases of CRS every year because of lack of widespread MMR vaccination.
            Antivaxers couldn’t care less about all these preventable cases of highly damaged babies, of course.
            https://www.sense.org.uk/content/congenital-rubella-syndrome

          • sabelmouse

            and certainly there is proof that rubella is what’s caused that, is there?
            or is it just the usual correlation used ?

          • MaineJen

            I’m sure you have a theory, which will prove more valuable than the established science of the past 50 years. Do enlighten us.

          • sabelmouse

            do you mean a hypothesis?

          • MaineJen

            Well, I was using the colloquial “theory,” as it doesn’t seem you’re terribly familiar with actual science. But sure. We’ll go with ‘hypothesis.’ It sounds much more attractive than “conspiracy theory.”

          • sabelmouse

            big logic fail, as is pretty usual for pros.

          • MaineJen
          • sabelmouse

            i guess you’ll eat today.

          • MaineJen

            Nope, they were late with my shill check again.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Derail attempt acknowledged.

            Now you could actually address the ducking question instead of being a pedantic dillhole.

          • Mike Stevens

            Proof that congenital rubella is due to rubella?

            Congenital rubella syndrome is a diagnosis that may be made clinically in most cases, seeing how the syndrome has very clear features.
            There is a slight chance that some other infections can mimic it, such as CMV, but it’s quite unlikely, and uncommon.
            Match that with a history of the pregnant mothers getting a rash during a rubella outbreak and the diagnosis is usually very straightforward.
            Obviously the diagnosis of all mothers opting for TOP having developed a rash is also straightforward – their previously negative serology and subsequent seroconversion to rubella is definitive.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My husband’s cataracts were sent to the CDC and there they found dead viruses trapped within the cataract matter. That’d be a hell of an unrelated correlation

          • sabelmouse

            did you mention this before? and is this done in all cases?
            and does that mean that those kids wakefield examined who had measles in their guts were vaccine damaged?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            wakefield is a defrocked fraud who wanted to push his own measles vaccine

          • sabelmouse

            do you really think that spouting this sort of ignorance will make people vaccinate?

          • Nick Sanders

            The Socratic method doesn’t work when the person or persons you are trying it on actually know what they are talking about.

          • sabelmouse

            i noticed that.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Mr. Wakefield has been struck off. This is true even if you think it was evil overlords behind it. Do I think it will convince you? No. Arguing with people about their martyrs is usually pointless, unless one’s point is to argue or to make suggestions to fence sitters. But then you think i’m a cartoon cut out of a shill’s sock puppet, so really i’m just earning my pay harassing you poor dear real people.

          • sabelmouse

            don’t argue then.

          • Azuran

            If anything, YOU shouldn’t argue. According to your own little conspiracy theory. Every comment you make is earning us money. You are making us rich. And if we truly are paid shill, then you have 0 chances of convincing anyone of us.

          • sabelmouse

            but you’re entertaining me.

          • Acleron

            Little?

            These conspiracy theorists have no idea of the tens of thousands of people who have to be in on the conspiracy or the hundreds of thousands of documents that need to be falsified to hide the conspiracy.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Can’t stop; I married a philosopher

          • sabelmouse

            2 became 1, eh?

          • Who?

            I think seeing how you and cia comport yourselves might make a few people think about whether they want to hitch their wagons to antivaxxers-grandiosity, ignorance, lack of empathy-what more could someone want in a cult?

          • sabelmouse

            IF that’s what people base such important decisions on vaccines are over because of pro shills.

          • Who?

            Really?

            So when you say you know more than 99.9% of doctors, you think anyone not already infected with your foolishness is impressed?

            You peddle wild, impossibly complex conspiracy theories, and you think you’re making a good impression?

            When someone shares an experience that doesn’t fit your narrative, you tell them not that you feel their pain but that they are wrong, foolish and at fault. Do you think that draws them and others to you?

            When you say ‘what’s a few dead babies’, as you and cia have both done, repeatedly, do you think no one sees your ruthless cruelty?

            Keep at it, please do.

          • sabelmouse

            doctors no next to nothing about vaccines, that’s easy.
            other than that;
            you seem to confuse with with a pro though.
            and no, it’s your kind that dismisses ”collateral damage for the greater good”.
            we are looking for better/the best overawe solution.
            you push vaccines, no matter what the short, or long term consequences.

          • Acleron

            Yeah, that’s why people spend significant parts of their lives researching, developing and testing vaccines for short and long term effects.

            Your efforts in this field are?

          • sabelmouse

            lol! long term effects. hilarious. next you say that they test them in combination.

          • Acleron

            Yes, both formally and in phase 4 studies.

            Carry on laughing inanely, it always suits you.

          • sabelmouse

            how far into the future do they look? 3 weeks, 2 months? 1 year?
            more laughs from you. i can always use those.

          • Acleron

            I’m not the one laughing like a fool, remember that’s you.

            Again, unlike you, I rely on passed experience and that tells me you are wrong on nearly everything you have commented on. It also tells me that vaccines are far safer than the diseases they prevent and that vaxxers are probably the most ignorant of posters in a scientific debate, but that is a close run thing with homeopaths.

          • sabelmouse

            and the funnies keep on coming. thank you.

          • Acleron

            If you think your lies about vaccines which are aimed at exposing children and adults to illness and death are funny, you expose yourself as lacking in compassion and empathy as much as Cia.

          • sabelmouse

            no, i find your [plural] nonsense funny. obvs!

          • Acleron

            So you don’t find your lies funny, neither does anybody else.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s about my amusement . what are you complaining about. you get to post.

          • Azuran

            And here you are, again trying to hold vaccines to an irrealist standard that nothing else actually has to uphold and that actually can’t be followed.

            Tell me, how long should vaccines be tested for ‘long term effect’ and in combination with how many other things before you are satisfied? And then, find any other medication that was tested for this long and with so much combination. Are you going to refuse any kind of medication that wasn’t tested for this much? What about the vitamin C that you people love so much? Have you tested it for 50 years, In newborn, through 3 generations and in combination with all other ‘natural’ remedies and medication to make sure it’s actually safe?

          • Acleron

            Don’t forget the effect on the environment of all that vit c they are peeing.

          • sabelmouse

            see my other comments.

          • Azuran

            Oh yea, sure, I’m going to plow through 1300 comments that spawn for over a week.
            Clearly someone as concerned as you and trying so hard to convince other people that vaccines are dangerous shouldn’t even blink at posting his proof whenever they are asked to do it.

          • sabelmouse

            don’t you know about profiles?

          • Azuran

            I do, but I’m still not interested in going through all the shit you wrote. You want to convince us that vaccines are bad? Get to it.

          • sabelmouse

            suit yourself. i don’t want to convince you of anything. i’m just being entertained by pro’s silliness.

          • Azuran

            Your life must be so sad if you have nothing better in life than parachuting here during the holiday.
            But hey, as long as you are here, you aren’t doing any real harm with your stupidity. No one here is going to fall for your crap.

          • sabelmouse

            awe, is that why you here 🙁

          • Azuran

            Except that I’m not a parachuter wasting his time like you, I’ve been a part of this community for 2 years.

          • sabelmouse

            what community?

          • Azuran

            The Skeptical OB community (you know, this very blog, on which you have been vomiting your stupidity for weeks now. Not really smart, are you?)
            I know in your paranoiac mind, we all all the same paid shill. But really that’s just because you have problems in the head.

          • sabelmouse

            i never pay attention to what site i am on. i must say, for that site you are surprisingly rational.
            i’ve encountered so much worse there, or maybe that was notsciencebasednonsense.
            of course you’re not ALL the same shill. as i’ve just said, some are worse than others.

          • Azuran

            You still think we are shill, while YOU are the one who came here. We aren’t the ones who came to your anti-vaxxer blog trying to change your mind.
            Why would we be paid shill? Who would pay us to hang around in a pro-science obstetric/parenting blog?
            Really, whenever any of you start accusing the others of being shills, it’s really because you have no argument. You are only hurting your own credibility with this claim.

          • sabelmouse

            shills are everywhere that vaccines are mentioned. who would pay you? there’s that humour again!

          • Azuran

            You need a mental check up. There are no shills. Everyone here are just normal people.
            Really, I’m generally an anxious person, but being paranoid like you must be exhausting.

          • sabelmouse

            i’m not paranoid though i do have 3 anxiety disorders.
            ok, you’re not a shill, just a deluded fanatic.

          • Azuran

            Actually, I’m a doctor who has personally seen the good of vaccination, the possible side effects of vaccination and the devastating consequences of not vaccinating.
            Hardly a fanatic. If anyone here is a deluded fanatic, it would be you.

          • sabelmouse

            a vet. most of those just follow orders as well. i’m just glad i found some good ones, one of whom has taken up homeopathy and this saved my cat.

          • Azuran

            Orders from who?
            Man you are deluded.
            Why am I not surprised to see you believe in the magical power of water. Here are news for you: Water didn’t save your cat. If it survived something after you gave him homeopathy, it’s because it wasn’t something that was going to kill him.
            (Also, be careful, many unregulated homeopathic products are actually not homeopathic, some even contain alcohol, I’ve seen many cases of cats and small dogs almost dying from this)

          • sabelmouse

            1. fip tends to be fatal.
            2. our cat was pretty close to death, the vet had given up. luckily his partner, who’d recently got into homeopathy came back from holidays just in time and suggested those as they had helped hers.
            3. i do trust both our vets to do their best and this one to know what remedies to get.

          • Azuran

            Did your cat have a biopsy from a lesion from one of his organ? Because FIP is extremely difficult to diagnose without it, if you didn’t get this done, maybe it wasn’t FIP.
            Could still be possible that your cat got lucky and is the one that survived. Please explain to me how water got rid of FIP?

          • sabelmouse

            no, no biopsy, just symptoms. explain why a cat who is starving to death, loosing his fur, retaining water everywhere, can barely walk or breath, has blood in pee, is given a few days to live, recovers. also i am quite amenable to the idea that it was my determination and power of thought.

          • Azuran

            So, you have no definitive diagnostic. Did it have blood work? Was it icteric? that ‘water’ was it analyzed to know what kind of liquid it was? Because really, so far your description doesn’t really convince me much. Especially in an older cat, since most cases of FIP are in cats less than 2 years old.
            -Cats let themselves starve all the time. Possible causes: Everything.
            -Losing fur: Not actually a sign of FIP. But could be anything also
            -Can barely walk: Basically anything that makes your cat weak. like electrolytes imbalance, fever etc.
            -Bloody pee: Any kind of infection of the bladder, the liver, Hemoglobinuria from any kind of cause, coagulation problems
            -Retaining water: hearth problem, liver problems, multiple kinds of cancer, hypoproteinemia.

            Really, FIP isn’t a disease you can diagnose with ‘symptoms’ And definitely NOT treated with homeopathy. Your cat got better because it was meant to. You think what? that you are the only one who has a pet who made a ‘miraculous’ recovery?

          • sabelmouse

            sure, my vet never thought to do any blood work, give any IVs and so on. those 2 stays he had at the vet were for what?
            long story short.
            cat had those symptoms, was given a few days to live after the vet did all he could.

            what would you have done?
            vet 1: cat’s life is over, deal with it .
            vet 2: try inexpensive remedies since all avenues are exhausted.
            i sure am glad vet 2 came back in time.
            you would have let my cat die/charge me a nice fee for euthanasia.

          • Azuran

            No, If I believed he had FIP, I would have recommended treatment for it (cortisone is also very unexpensive and has some proven benefits when treating FIP). I have diagnosed and treated many FIP patients myself, many of whom lived for months.

            Euthanasia is never the only option I propose.

          • sabelmouse

            months eh!
            well, neither did the vet, but the alternative was watching him starve.
            luckily we never had to make that choice.

          • Azuran

            Yea, months, but those where actually 100% proven cases of FIP.
            Like I said, your cat could have had something else, or maybe he’s part of the very lucky few who apparently don’t die.

          • sabelmouse

            sure, could be. had the conventional treatments worked they’d get the credit though.
            personally i think that my power of thought is in the running.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
          • Azuran

            Seriously, you want to know why I support vaccines?
            We had 2 puppies when I was a kid, my mom was young and uneducated and didn’t know they needed vaccines. They both died of parvo at 6 months.
            Since I’ve started working in the field, I have seen Parvo cases by the dozens. If not a couple hundreds, we get 1-4 per week in my clinic. I’ve seen dozens of puppies brought in too late and die. Or others dying at home or being put down because the owners where unable to pay for the treatment their pets needed.
            You want to know what all those cases had in common? Except for 1 case, all of them where either unvaccinated or missed their booster shots. It’s so rare for a vaccinated dog to get Parvo that when someone gets one, it ends up being a case study. And scientific evidence support this, the parvo vaccine is 99% effective.

            And that’s just parvo. Panleukopenia is also a huge killer of kittens, I’ve seen entire litters die, I’ve seen households lose multiple healthy adult cats in a week. All of which where also unvaccinated.
            I’ve seen many cats develop cancer or anemia because of feline leukemia virus.
            I’ve seen many dogs die or end up with permanent renal damage due to leptospirosis.
            We see at least a dozen cases of respiratory illnesses ever single week.

            Have I seen vaccine reaction? Yes, and I warn ever single client I have of this possibility. But they are rare (1-2 per months) and usually very light. Of all those pets that had vaccines reactions, most would have been fine without any kind of treatment, 99% of them can keep getting their shots, we give them anti-histamine and they are just find. Sometimes, we separate the shots, But so far I’ve never seen any pet have a 2nd vaccine reaction. Only 1 time in my career did I have a vaccine reaction severe enough for me to decide not to vaccinate again. Yet that pet was perfectly healthy in a matter of 20 minutes after the reaction, it has no sequels.
            I don’t have any pet with any long term sequels from a vaccine or vaccine reactions. Since my clinic was founded 40 years ago, they lost 1 cat to an anaphylactic reaction, 13 years ago. ONE, while giving tens of thousands of shots, over the course of 40 years.
            I see at least 1 pet a WEEK die from a VPD.

            When you’ll have spend 1 hour trying to get in IV catheter in a severely dehydrated puppy with Parvo while bits of it’s guts are literally coming out of both ends. Or just tell a parent, in front of their crying 6 years old, that it’s too late to save her new little kitty then, you’ll have the right to tell me I’m just ‘following orders’

          • sabelmouse

            so, vaccinate puppies for parvo but every year, for the rest of their lives?
            and have you ever made the association between skin issues, and chronic illnesses and over vaccinating ?
            our bingley is also fl positive. that didn’t help with fip but luckily homeopathics.
            of course we have no idea of his medical history prior to our adopting him at the age of 5, or 7.

          • Azuran

            Do you realize how totally biased and unlogical you are being? You are refusing vaccines because you think that they were not researched enough.
            Yet, we have EXTENSIVE research that shows that homeopathy DOESN’T work. We probably have double blinded placebo studies that show they are nothing but lies. Yet you believe in them

            Cats can have FeLV without any symptoms for years. Some never do. Doesn’t mean it’s because of homeopathy
            And vaccination standards are changing. Parvo is recommended every 3 years, that’s a well known fact, everyone knows it.
            The main ‘problem’ with this is that most shots are multi vaccines. Giving a shot is giving a shot, no matter how many diseases it protects for. Some shots still needs to be given once per year, So usually, Most vets will carry 1-3 kind of vaccines. Because keeping 10 different combination of shots is not something that you can do. If your pet is due for his shot for 1 of the disease, giving him the shot with only the disease or the one with all of them makes no difference. We also don’t have a reliable herd immunity, with a vaccine coverage generally around 50%. So while in human you can accept a 5-10% of people with a poor answer to vaccination, or waning immunity, the same 5-10% is not something you can afford with pets.

            There is also a lot of hype with measuring antibodies. Expect that it’s 100-150$ per disease, and you’d want to tests at least rabies, parvo and distemper. No one wants to pay for it.

            And there isn’t really reliable evidence that those disease are actually caused by over-vaccination.

          • sabelmouse

            i take it that you would have let my cat die.

          • Azuran

            Absolutely not.
            But hey, your cat would have had a water bowl and probably IV fluids under my care. How’s that for homeopathy?

            My point is: You are claiming homeopathy cured your cat of FIP. HOWEVER

            -You had no definitive diagnostic. It might not have been that. So your claim is meaningless.

            -There are extremely extensive researches that show that homeopathy doesn’t work in human. But you are choosing to ignore it, while arguing that we don’t have enough research on the effectiveness of vaccines.

            -There are NO research about homeopathy in cats that show any kind of effect or that it’s even safe. Yet you are ignoring this, while also arguing that we don’t have enough research on the safety of vaccines.

            Basically, I’m calling you a hypocrite.

          • sabelmouse

            you think he didn’t have a water bowl, or iv fluids? why would you assume that?
            you’re being close minded and sound like a proponent of what you claim not be a shill for.

          • Azuran

            I’m not being close minded, like I said, MANY studies have shown that Homeopathy doesn’t worth. ALL reported effects of homeopathy is due to the placebo effect.
            And I’m not saying your cat didn’t have a water bowl of IV fluids. I’m just asking: What is the difference between the water bowl, the IV fluids and the homeopathic drops you gave him?
            Now who would be paying me to tell you that homeopathy doesn’t work on FIP? We don’t vaccinate for it, there are no practical diagnostic tests for it, there are no very effective treatment for it. Who would profit from hiding a cure for FIP? Anyone who managed to came up with either a vaccine, a cure or a proper diagnostic test would make a LOT of money.

          • sabelmouse

            big pharma don’t like anything outside of it’s control.
            and YOU would have let my cat die.

          • Azuran

            No I wouldn’t. Like I told you, If I believed he had FIP, I would have given him a treatment that has actually been shown to improve outcome, unlike homeopathy.

          • sabelmouse

            so you think the vet who treated him conventionally didn’t do everything but then again you think that he just improved when he stopped treatment?

          • Azuran

            I’ve had many cases of ‘we are not entirely sure what he has’ which is followed by ‘let’s do a medical treatment and see how it goes’ Which was then followed by ‘Not much improvement……we’ve done everything we can do here, maybe he’ll do better at home?’ Followed by a recovery at home.
            It actually happens a lot. And it’s normal for it to happen even after you stop treatment. After all, if a treatment isn’t working, you stop it, since it’s not working, keeping it longer won’t work more.
            Your cat just got over whatever it has. It happens. I’ve had many cases. All without homeopathy. Your cat would have had exactly the same outcome without it.

          • sabelmouse

            it wasn’t a case of ”not much improvement” , it was a case of no improvement, ever closer to death’s door.
            so, are you saying that the conmed treatment actually made him worse and stopping that saved his life?

          • Azuran

            Again, I’ve seen cases that kept getting worse until they finally got better. It’s basically a regression to the mean. There where only 2 outomes. Either your cat would keep getting worst and die, or it was going to get better eventually.

            As for why he got better. Perhaps he just got better. But it’s possible that one of the medication he was on was making him nauseated. Which is why, when a medication doesn’t work, you stop it, to avoid possible negative side effects. Or your cat just had food aversion in the hospital. It’s frequent.
            It can be a lot of things. But it wasn’t magical water healing power.

          • sabelmouse

            he didn’t eat before he got here, that’s why we took him. and the apathy, and the high fever.
            i hope that you are not a real vet.

          • Azuran

            Man. Really you are hopeless.

            Fever alone is more than enough reason for a cat to stop eating.
            However, like I told you, cats are prone to anorexia, and often, even after you treated everything else. They might not want to eat in the hospital. Its a common problem­.

            So they tried treating your cat, it apparently didn’t work. (it happens) So you went home with it. And then it got better. That happens. I’ve seen it a lot. It just didn’t happen because of the homeopathy.

          • Azuran

            Man you are paranoid. If homeopathy worked, big pharma would be making the freaking homeopathy.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s cheap, there’s a rub.

          • Azuran

            Lots of medication are cheap. They do them anyway.

          • sabelmouse

            monopoly.

          • Azuran

            There are multiple different pharma company. There isn’t a monopoly.

          • sabelmouse

            that kind of medicine which has monopoly to the point where it can kill with impunity and claim absolute dominance.

          • Azuran

            Dafuq are you even talking about?

          • sabelmouse

            ok, lack of comprehension it is!

          • Azuran

            Oh, go ahead, explain, I’m all ear.

          • Acleron

            Homeopathy is big, but fake, pharma. It is a billions a year industry.

          • Acleron

            By treating with homeopathy, you were letting your cat die. It luckily survived your non treatment.

          • sabelmouse

            this makes no sense. the cat was dying after ”conventional” treatment failed, then survived after getting homeopathy. how hard is this to understand?

          • Acleron

            Simply because homeopathy is not treatment. The poor cat didn’t even get the comfy chat and expensive cup of tea.

          • sabelmouse

            nwmt

          • Azuran

            It doesn’t prove homeopathy works. We actually have very solid scientific proof that homeopathy DOESN’T work. How hard is it to understand?
            Like I told you, I’ve had MANY cases that had basically the same outcome as your cat: Didn’t improve with conventionnal treatment, were sent home with palliative care (without any homeopathy) and then got better.

            Cats are actually notorious for not eating and not taking care of themselves when they are hospitalised or stressed. Unless there is need for more aggressive treatment, we don’t keep anorectic cats in the hospital because we know they won’t eat here and will get better quicker at home.

          • sabelmouse

            sure, and 100+ years ago we had a solid understanding of micro entities NOT existing due to lack of senses/technology.
            but that couldn’t be it now because now science has become omnipotent.
            the cat didn’t become ill/stop eating at the vets. we went there because….
            you do tie yourself in knots.

          • Azuran