Pro tip for anti-vaxxers: citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine

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When one of my sons was in the third grade, we had an argument about arithmetic, specifically division.

He had been struggling over his homework, trying to determine the answer to a word problem:

Whining that I don’t take your YouTube citation seriously is like whining that an MIT astrophysicist doesn’t take your styrofoam solar system model seriously.

If Jack has 18 pennies and wants to separate them into 3 groups, how many pennies will be in each group.

I pointed out that it was a division problem: 18 ÷ 3 = 6.

“No,” he wailed, “no it isn’t. That’s not the way my teacher explained it. You weren’t there. You didn’t hear what she said. You don’t know anything!”

I collected 18 pennies and put them on the table.

“Make 3 group out of these pennies and be sure each group has the same number of pennies,” I instructed.

It didn’t take him long to created three piles of 6 pennies each. He looked up at me with a shy smile and asked:

“How did you know?”

How did I know? I knew because I could draw on far greater arithmetic knowledge than he could. He knew very little about multiplication and division, fractions or percentages; and, of course, he knew nothing at all about algebra and calculus.

Arguing with anti-vaxxers reminds me of that episode because it is in many ways like arguing with 8 year olds. Their knowledge base is incredibly limited; their ability to go beyond basic sources of knowledge is profoundly restricted; and, on top of that, they have literally no idea how little they know.

Anti-vaxxers get incredibly frustrated arguing with me and for many of the same reasons that my 8 year old got frustrated. They don’t understand that what they’ve heard and read represents just a tiny fraction of the knowledge on the topic; their ability to go beyond plain language sources of knowledge into the scientific literature is profoundly restricted; and, on top of that, they have literally no idea how little they know.

They are proud of their “knowledge” garnered from websites, Facebook pages and YouTube videos. They don’t understand that citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine. No doubt Highlights Magazine is filled with lots of accurate information about the solar system, for example, and perhaps after reading the magazine you could build a solar system model using string and stryrofoam balls. But that doesn’t make you an astro-physicist.

Whining that I don’t take your YouTube citations seriously is no different from showing up at an MIT astrophysics class and whining that they don’t take your styrofoam solar system model seriously. The other astrophysics students would laugh at you and your lack of both knowledge and sophistication. Anti-vaxxers should understand that when you cite YouTube, those who have advanced knowledge of these topics are laughing at you for the same reason: you are merely displaying your lack of both knowledge and sophistication.

Most 8 year olds, when told by authority figures that Highlights Magazine or a third grade classroom don’t represent the limits of knowledge on a topic, will generally accept that when they know more, things will look different. In contrast, most anti-vaxxers, when told by science authorities that the websites, Facebook pages and YouTube videos that they’ve seen don’t represent the limits of knowledge on the topic of vaccination, refuse to accept that if they knew more, things would look very different.

Partly that’s because defiance of authority is an integral component of anti-vax advocacy. They literally believe they know more than authorities. That makes about as much sense as the third grader who thinks he knows more about division than someone who took college calculus. And most of the gambits favored by anti-vaxxers sound as foolish coming out of their mouths as they would if a 3rd grader berated his teacher.

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining to the teacher: “Just because you have a degree in mathematics doesn’t mean you know more arithmetic than me”?

Ridiculous, right? And it’s equally ridiculous for anti-vaxxers to whine: “Just because you have a degree in medicine doesn’t mean you know more immunology than me!”

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining: “You might have a fancy degree, but I bet you didn’t learn any division in your math PhD program”?

Hilarious, right? And it’s equally hilarious when anti-vaxxers whine: “Medical schools only spend one day on immunology!”

Can you imagine a 3rd grader whining: “You’re just a shill for the math textbook industry?”

Sounds idiotic, right? And it’s equally idiotic for anti-vaxxers to whine to nearly all the doctors, research scientists and public health officials in the world, “you’re just a shill for Big Pharma.”

It can be charming when 3rd graders fail to understand how little they know about a topic despite the fact that they’ve completed 2nd grade. It’s not charming when someone with a only a high school diploma or an undergraduate degree in art fails to understand how little he knows about immunology.

It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect, first described in a classic paper Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments:

…[T]hose with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.

Anti-vaxxers suffer from this dual burden. Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it.

They need to understand the depth and breadth of their own ignorance. Citing YouTube merely confirms their profound ignorance.

2,701 Responses to “Pro tip for anti-vaxxers: citing YouTube is like citing Highlights Magazine”

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  2. Mike Stevens
    January 11, 2017 at 5:34 pm #

    Yes, it’s a cost benefit analysis looking at the short term consequences of vaccination.
    I cited it for the evidence on the case numbers of zoster, which Cia didn’t accept.
    Like I said, you can prevent or mitigate morbidity from zoster, and the increase will be a short to medium term one only, then it will disappear entirely.
    😉

    • Leslie
      January 12, 2017 at 3:03 am #

      That link says: “Mathematical modelling based on these results predicts that, by reducing circulating VZV, universal varicella vaccination will lead to a significant increase in zoster, which can last up to 50 years.”

      How is an increase in shingles that can last up to 50 years considered short to medium term? Furthermore, there is only speculation on your part that it will disappear entirely as the chickenpox vaccine is not 100% effective.

      • Mike Stevens
        January 12, 2017 at 3:33 am #

        The vaccine is 98-100% effective.
        Herd immunity requires around 93% vaccination. Exceed that and chickenpox could disappear completely.
        No chickenpox, no zoster.

        • Leslie
          January 12, 2017 at 4:13 am #

          The vaccine does not have a 98-100% effectiveness rate. Furthermore, Merck insert claims it is only effective for 10 years. So unless the entire global population is vaccinated for it, older children and adults risk contracting it when it is far more dangerous for them. And they would then still have the shingles risk as they age.

          This study confirms about 80% effectiveness with breakthrough incidences in previously vaccinated. The study also cannot confirm long term effectiveness of 2 doses. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064040#t=article

          • Mike Stevens
            January 12, 2017 at 5:03 am #

            Your study was one which was instrumental in the introduction of a second dose of varicella vaccine being given.
            The efficacy figures for 2 doses were exactly as I stated.
            Didn’t you realise your citation referred to only one dose? I guess not. Perhaps you should have read it more carefully.

            98% efficacy after 10 years:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14872179
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/203/3/312.long

          • Leslie
            January 12, 2017 at 6:09 am #

            “Results from this controlled study of the effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine indicate that administration of 2 doses was highly effective in preventing varicella in the first 2.5 years after implementation of the 2-dose schedule to prevent disease.”

            That doesn’t state 98% efficacy after 10 years as you claim. It also doesn’t say that 2 doses is confirmed to stop breakthrough chickenpox. It’s just conjecture:

            “A second dose of vaccine may be important not only to prevent breakthrough varicella and continuing transmission of the virus, but also to potentially lower the subsequent risk of developing zoster by decreasing latent infection with wild-type VZV. It will be important to continue to monitor the effectiveness of 2 doses of varicella vaccine over time.”

          • Mike Stevens
            January 12, 2017 at 9:46 am #

            “That doesn’t state 98% efficacy after 10 years as you claim.”

            It does. I cited 2 studies to back up my claim of 98% vaccine efficacy.
            This is what the first one concluded:
            “The estimated vaccine efficacy for the 10-year observation period was 94.4% for one injection and 98.3% for two injections (P < 0.001). Measurable serum antibody persisted for 9 years in all subjects."
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14872179

            The second said >98% efficacy after 2.5 years.
            Give it time….

          • Leslie
            January 12, 2017 at 11:08 am #

            Estimate = guess not proof

      • Dr Kitty
        January 12, 2017 at 8:09 am #

        Why is why the UK has implemented universal Zoster vaccination for the over 70s, with current cohorts of 70, and 79 year olds being vaccinated with an eventual plan of universal vaccination at age 70.

        Once this has bedded down, and the majority of the elderly population is vaccinated against shingles, with the majority of the population aged 20-70 having immunity to chicken pox from childhood, I fully expect the Varicella vaccine for children to be introduced on cost effectiveness grounds.

        https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/547250/Shingles_table_GP_poster.pdf

        • Leslie
          January 12, 2017 at 10:22 am #

          When did the UK start enforcing compulsory vaccinations of all its citizens?

  3. Who?
    January 6, 2017 at 3:51 am #

    Well cia will be delighted with this strengthening.

    Four children, and two others all in the last week. Let’s hope they are all okay.

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/sixth-person-diagnosed-with-meningococcal-20170106-gtnbw2.html

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      January 8, 2017 at 8:20 am #

      I hope so, but it’s highly unlikely. Meningiococcal meningitis is highly fatal.

      • Who?
        January 9, 2017 at 3:10 am #

        All crossed for them. There has been no further news, which I’m hoping is good news.

  4. moto_librarian
    January 3, 2017 at 2:46 pm #

    I’m just going to say this. Anyone who comes here claiming that their child is very healthy who then states that said “healthy” child has had whooping cough, H1N1, other strains of flu, bronchitis, and the chicken pox is both a liar and a bad parent.

    • ciaparker2
      January 3, 2017 at 7:05 pm #

      After training her immune system by going through many contagious illnesses over many years, she’s very healthy now. She hasn’t had any illness in the last two years. She’s sixteen now. That’s the purpose of the formerly universal childhood diseases, to train the Th-1 cellular immune system.

        • Mike Stevens
          January 3, 2017 at 7:15 pm #

          Cia doesn’t care about children dying of diseases in Africa, Shay. She told us so before. Hell, she doesn’t even care about kids dying in the USA… “450 deaths a year from measles is no big deal”, and “I couldn’t care about deaths from pertussis” were the phrases, according to memory.

          • shay simmons
            January 3, 2017 at 7:16 pm #

            She was ok with a pertussis mortality rate of 1 out of 200 cases.

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 8:51 pm #

            That’s in the youngest newborns in the first three months of life, in whom the disease is uncommon. They could be saved if they were treated with vitamin C when the disease occurred.

          • Who?
            January 4, 2017 at 12:07 am #

            Pesky dead babies messing with your belief system!

          • shay simmons
            January 4, 2017 at 2:38 pm #

            Except that there is no body of evidence supporting the use of intravenous vitamin C for pertussis.

          • Heidi
            January 4, 2017 at 3:07 pm #

            Question: if vitamin C and other homeopathic crap worked, then why, oh, why doesn’t evil big pharma lobby to make it an actual drug? Surely if they worked, as big and greedy as they supposedly are, they could make it where one has to have a prescription for vitamin C or essential oils or whatever else and be rolling in profit!

          • Dr Kitty
            January 4, 2017 at 5:36 pm #

            No, they can be saved if their mothers get a pertussis booster in pregnancy, so that is now the recommended course of action.

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 7:18 pm #

            I also recall, in one of her many screeds about measles, that cia said she could “live with ” 450 deaths from measles annually in the US. What a freaking ghoul!

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 8:52 pm #

            Freaking ghouls who could care less about the one in forty American children now diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

          • Chris Preston
            January 3, 2017 at 8:59 pm #

            Freaking ghouls who could care less about the one in forty American children now diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

            Autism is not caused by vaccines.

            I don’t understand why you feel so compelled to display your ignorance of medical issues all over the internet. Surely once or twice would be enough.

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 10:53 pm #

            It is caused by vaccines. It seems that denying the obvious once or twice would have been enough.

          • Polak
            January 3, 2017 at 11:20 pm #

            http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/ VACCINATION does NOT cause Autism.

          • Chris Preston
            January 4, 2017 at 12:16 am #

            It is caused by vaccines.

            You are completely wrong. There is simply no evidence from well constructed studies that there is any link between vaccines and autism.

            This study from Taylor et al. 2014 is a meta analysis of 5 cohort studies including 3198 subjects reported as having ASD among 1.25 million subjects and 5 case control studies including a further 2459 subjects with ASD. It found no correlation between vaccines and ASD. This meta analysis demonstrates that the probability of vaccines causing ASD is minuscule, otherwise the correlation would have been detected. Indeed with a study of this size we can with 95% confidence state that the proportion of children with ASD where vaccines could have been responsible must be less than 1 in 1800. For all practical purposes, the scientific research demonstrates that vaccines do not cause autism.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 3:49 pm #

            It’s caused by organic food, cia.

          • momofone
            January 4, 2017 at 3:49 pm #

            Don’t be silly. It’s caused by breastfeeding.

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 9:47 pm #

            So THAT’S what’s wrong with my kids! J/K

          • ciaparker2
            January 4, 2017 at 4:57 pm #

            Your supposition explains a lot about you.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 5:20 pm #

            But there is evidence… A clear correlation exists, and the link has biological plausibility.
            You prove it is not organic food, would you?
            Have big organic farma done safety studies to prove it doesn’t cause autism? Any controlled trials, or long term studies?

          • January 25, 2017 at 4:57 pm #

            BIG WHOLEFOODS, worth $20 billion dollars. But they are not doing it for the money…… They are doing it so the sheeple eat healthy.

          • Roadstergal
            January 4, 2017 at 5:56 pm #

            Where’s the randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial showing that it isn’t, cia?

          • Who?
            January 4, 2017 at 7:03 pm #

            Exactly.

            Cia should put up or shut up.

          • ciaparker2
            January 5, 2017 at 9:15 am #

            What would I do without your humor to leaven my day? I’m off for a root canal on icy roads, so I could use it.

          • Heidi
            January 5, 2017 at 9:37 am #

            What?! Mainstream dentistry?! Did you try oil pulling and grass-fed butter first?

          • Azuran
            January 5, 2017 at 10:32 am #

            A root canal huh? What you trust Big Dental? Did you know your dentist gets paid for doing this? And you trust him?
            I hope you won’t take any analgesia, after all, they inject you with chemicals that can have side effect. It affects your nerves, and nerves to straight to your brain, it’s going to cause you brain damage
            Also, dental fillings are made with chemicals!!!!!! That they put directly in you mouth, so that you are constantly eating chemicals!!! And if you bite your tongue, it’s going to go straight in your bloodstream!!!

          • Heidi
            January 5, 2017 at 10:58 am #

            Real dentistry for her because it HURTS, but if her daughter has a cavity, she is Cia’s homeopathic guinea pig.

          • moto_librarian
            January 5, 2017 at 3:02 pm #

            I hope you didn’t have novocaine or gas!

          • Acleron
            January 5, 2017 at 3:46 pm #

            Homeopathic Novocaine, obviously. She’d better ask for the Hg content of the metal in the drills, the few parts per trillion will obviously necessitate extra chelation.

          • sabelmouse
            January 5, 2017 at 1:13 pm #

            that site IS funny, or maybe ridiculous is the right word.

          • sabelmouse
            January 5, 2017 at 12:26 pm #

            don’t it just?!

          • Azuran
            January 4, 2017 at 3:56 pm #

            There is no evidence that it is.
            You are the one ignoring the mountain of evidence that vaccines do no cause autism

          • Roadstergal
            January 4, 2017 at 9:33 pm #

            And yet, unvaccinated autistic children are running around out there.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 5, 2017 at 1:57 pm #

            Interestingly, that plot is done so to emphasize the correlation, but I can tell you, the similarity is even more dramatic if you make the right hand scale (the autism cases) max out at more like 32600. If you do that, the curves basically lay right on top of each other (there is a little separation at 2007)

            It looks like this. You can barely even tell there are two different curves there

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9416e3cc438f52313693c24402141e3e7200da725d942191a52c9321dd5c0b8b.jpg

          • January 5, 2017 at 2:10 pm #

            Nice chart. However I’m willing to bet my house that ciaparker will not understand that correlation and causation are two COMPLETELY different things.

          • Polak
            January 3, 2017 at 9:00 pm #

            And your proof?

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 10:51 pm #

            You know that’s a lie, bee!

          • Nick Sanders
            January 3, 2017 at 11:39 pm #

            None of the children diagnosed with autism have been diagnosed with autism caused by vaccines.

          • Who?
            January 4, 2017 at 12:06 am #

            Children with autism are, by definition, alive. Even if your nonsense were true, there would be more children alive than dead. Since infection is deadlier than injection.

          • moto_librarian
            January 4, 2017 at 10:13 am #

            So would you rather that your child be dead or autistic?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 4, 2017 at 10:38 am #

            So would you rather that your child be dead or autistic?

            But that’s not even the question. Since vaccines don’t cause autism, you don’t have that trade off.

          • moto_librarian
            January 4, 2017 at 12:08 pm #

            Oh, I know that. But given that we are unable to convince her that they don’t, I just want to hear her say that a dead child is better than an autistic child. That removes all doubt that she is indeed a terrible person.

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 2:12 pm #

            I hear what you’re saying. The problem is, it’s a false comparison. It just plays into those AVs hands to say that. Then they get into some sort of a huff about making them choose between death and autism.

          • Heidi
            January 4, 2017 at 2:37 pm #

            She is indeed a horrible person. She uses all her spare time to rail against her daughter’s autism, instead of accepting and loving her daughter for who she is. I can’t imagine my own parents deciding something was a “flaw” in me and spending all their waking hours angry about it. I can’t imagine doing that to my own son. Her daughter doesn’t deserve to be treated and regarded so poorly.

          • Azuran
            January 4, 2017 at 10:38 am #

            we care about both VPD and autism.
            Thing is, we know that autism isn’t caused by VPD. Scientists are not ignoring people with autism, there is lots of research on autism going on.
            You, and anti-vaxxers like you, with your constant nagging about vaccines, are actually slowing down that research and causing huge wastes of money on making more and more studies proving it’s not caused by vaccines.
            So really, if you cared about those 1/40 kids, you’d stop trying to slow down research on autism.

          • Polak
            January 4, 2017 at 3:12 pm #

            Sorry Cia

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 1:57 pm #

            I know autism is caused by homeopathy.
            So stop promoting it.

          • Polak
            January 4, 2017 at 3:17 pm #

            You have been given many links by many posters which state that VACCINATION does NOT cause AUTISM. The question is,have you EVER bothered to go to any of those links and read them? And if not,is it because you are afraid to be shown up as WRONG.

          • maidmarian555
            January 4, 2017 at 4:08 pm #

            Just twelve days ago you posted:

            “Well, I disagree. All humans are called to live compassionately, showing concern and love for their fellow human beings as well as all other sentient beings, in thought, word, and deed. Only saints can do so perfectly, most of us must try to balance what we owe to others and what we owe to ourselves and our families. But those unable to understand the feelings of others, and don’t care about this spiritual blindness in themselves, are handicapped. And no, I don’t think they are as good as those who feel and demonstrate compassion selflessly and responsibly. You may call my standards arbitrary, but they are not. They are not endlessly flexible and not everyone lives up to them. It’s like saying that someone paralyzed and in a wheelchair is as good an athlete as an Olympic champion. Obviously not true. Someone who is unable to understand or care about the feelings of others is simply not as good a human being as someone who does.”

            You made this statement in reference to people on the spectrum. So let us not pretend that you’re some sort of saint who is here arguing your point to “defend” those with autism selflessly. You’ve made some of the most unpleasant statements I’ve ever had the misfortune to read about people on the spectrum. You don’t get to call other people ‘ghouls’ when you openly express sentiments like those I’ve quoted above.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 5, 2017 at 10:49 pm #

            I almost replied Cia. Caught myself.

          • January 4, 2017 at 1:01 pm #

            Maybe she is Mother Teresa, reborn? As Mother Teresa didn’t care about kids getting HIV either. (evidenced by her continual rejection of contraceptives)

      • FallsAngel
        January 3, 2017 at 7:11 pm #

        Explain the Th-1 system in your own words.

        • Mike Stevens
          January 3, 2017 at 7:12 pm #

          All she knows is the phrase “original antigenic sin”. They aren’t her own words either.

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 8:50 pm #

            Of course they aren’t my own words. Was it Dr. James Cherry who first introduced the concept of original antigenic sin? The pertussis germ produces a toxin called ACT, but production is only started once the infection is underway. The old DPT had some ACT in it, but the DTaP doesn’t have any of it. The absence of ACT in the vaccine means that giving the vaccine programs a permanently deficient response to the pertussis germs onto the hard drive of the immune system. It does not and cannot include any instructions on how to deal with ACT, and without such instructions, the immune system is unable to deal effectively with the real deal. Permanently unable. Meaning that even after going through the natural disease, as millions do even if they get a pertussis vaccine every week, they can’t produce the permanent immunity they would have had they never gotten the pertussis vaccine. It is thought that a similar process also occurs with measles and the measles vaccine, but I haven’t read any details on that.

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 9:12 pm #

            Snort, snort!

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 10:58 pm #

            New information for you , was it?
            http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/hilarys-desk/whooping_cough_and_chameleons

            ACT is
            Adenylate cyclase toxin. Once a whooping cough bacteria
            has landed up attached to cells in the bronchi, a gene switches on which
            produce this toxin which acts like a forcefield. This toxin stops the immmune
            system from recognising the bacteria straight away and gives the bacteria about
            a two week advantage until the immune system wakes up to the fact it’s been
            duped. This is one of the crucial “antigens”. In natural immunity the body
            reacts very strongly to ACT, and produces very high levels of immunity to it.
            The next time a person meets whooping cough, the body very quickly throws the
            kitchen sink and the whole house at the whooping cough bacteria, and clears it
            rapidly from the system.

            (Addition December 2013: In
            May this year, for the first time, ACT during infection and in vitro
            manufacture was cultured, and Eby 13 is the first real
            study on ACT, even though they have known it’s crucial role
            for some time).

            Original Antigenic
            Sin. When a person gets an infectious disease for the
            first time, the body responds to WHAT it sees, WHERE it sees it. The body forms
            immunity on the basis of THAT experience. The immune system assumes that the
            next time that same thing comes around, it will come again, in the same form
            and place. HOWEVER, if a person’s immunity to a vaccine creates different
            pathways from natural immunity, that causes a problem. The body still sees “the
            thing” but the different immunity doesn’t work against the thing in the same
            way as it should.

            In the case of natural whooping cough immunity, ACT or adenylate cyclase toxin,
            forms the basis of the initial immune response, and that front line immune
            response is crucial for removing the bacteria on reinfection. No vaccine
            can have ACT in it, because it’s made in the body, as part of the disease
            process and it seems vaccine manufacturers were not able to the whooping
            cough bacteria to excrete ACT in the vaccine substrates, because most articles
            which test recipients of the whole cell vaccine, find only low ACT
            antibodies. And the newer acellular whooping cough vaccine doesn’t have
            ACT in it at all. The immunity created from an acellular vaccine misses
            this step out, and immunity from the old whole cell vaccine showed levels of
            ACT antibodies which were much much lower than that triggered by a natural
            infection.

            (Addition December 2013
            addition. Original antigenic sin has been confirmed by a recent study in
            2013, by Warfel. So when a vaccinated person
            contracts pertussis again, the bacteria can get a good hold, because there is
            no front line ACT defence, to stop the bacteria from attaching, and starting an
            infection. After a vaccine in which there is no ACT, the immune system
            will NOT respond to ACT in the future, because the programme has been set by
            the first contact which was the needle, not the bacteria. And here is the proof
            in Table 1:

            After the disease, and
            convalescence, on re-exposure, there was no carriage and therefore no
            spread. During infection baboons spread whooping cough for 30 days.
            After “immunity” from acellular vaccine, pertussis was spread for 35
            days, and after “immunity” from whole cell vaccine, pertussis was
            spread for 19 days.

            So the vaccinated are much more
            of a danger to babies and the general public, because while the vaccine may (or
            may not) prevent serious symptoms, because the person thinks nothing much is
            wrong, they will continue going to school, work, or whatever while infecting
            all those around them. That doesn’t happen with immunity from the
            disease. Natural immunity does NOT result in spreading on subsequent
            contact with the bacteria.

            Which is probably the reason why
            in Sweden, up until 2000, clinical infections were primarily been in the 3 – 11
            age group, whereas now, infection ages are starting to spread outside of those
            age ranges. /end Dec 13 addition)

            An
            “epitope”
            is part of the antigen.
            Imagine the whooping cough bacteria is like a jig saw puzzle. Imagine an outside
            envelope, genes , toxins and other stuff. Each different bit, is a “linked
            epitope”, and all the epitopes which are “linked”, are the bits which put
            together make up an antigen.

            So the expression “Linked
            epitope suppression” is actually a very devious way of
            describing original
            antigenic sin. Worse, “linked epitope suppression”
            has been reframed to give it a slightly different meaning as well. What
            they are saying is that because the vaccine presents different epitopes to the
            disease, it gives a different immunity. They say this
            means that the usual immune system patterns essential to natural immunity
            – are suppressed, because the body responds to the antigens which
            were in the vaccine, and not the real ones presented in the bacteria.
            “Suppression” though, infers that the vaccine “suppresses” the proper
            immune response – but this isn’t true. The proper immune response can’t happen,
            because the initial programming was all wrong in the first place. It
            isn’t suppressed. It just… doesn’t happen.

            And unfortunately, unlike a computer, you can’t reboot, or reinstall immune
            system programming to correct the glitch. Once the programming is set by the
            vaccine, that’s how the programming stays from that point on, and that’s why it
            is and should be called…. “original
            antigenic sin”.

            Original antigenic
            sin, is a very graphic term and it’s no wonder it’s been
            removed from their vocabulary, because it implies a man-made problem.

            Now that you have these terms, perhaps you can follow the rest of the blog. PT stands for pertussis toxin.
            (You can look up the other abbreviations yourself if you have the need)

            The first mention of “original antigenic sin” was in a paper written in 2004 by James Cherry
            for whom pertussis vaccine has been his life long baby

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 11:01 pm #

            Good Grief, cia, what’s gotten into you? You sure are being nasty tonight.

          • kilda
            January 3, 2017 at 11:09 pm #

            erm, this makes exactly zero sense:

            “ACT is Adenylate cyclase toxin. Once a whooping cough bacteria has landed up attached to cells in the bronchi, a gene switches on which produce this toxin which acts like a forcefield. This toxin stops the immmune system from recognising the bacteria straight away”

            and later

            “In natural immunity the body
            reacts very strongly to ACT, and produces very high levels of immunity to it.”

            so does ACT dupe the body into not recognizing the invader, or does it produce a very strong immune reaction? You kind of have to pick one of those things.

          • ciaparker2
            January 4, 2017 at 12:01 pm #

            It takes about two weeks during which ACT uses its strategy to evade detection of the pertussis pathogen before the immune system realizes what is happening and then mounts resistance to it. In the meantime, the cilia in the airways have been broken off by the toxin, making it much harder to cough up the mucus in the lungs, causing the prolonged severe coughing fits to expel it, and the many weeks first of coughing, then of fighting the germs, and finally recovery with permanent immunity if no pertussis vaccine had been previously received which permanently programmed a response which didn’t include ACT.

            Go read what Dr. James Cherry has written about it.

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 2:08 pm #

            This James Cherry?
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long
            “In contrast to diphtheria and tetanus, there is considerable
            misunderstanding about pertussis epidemiology and disease manifestations
            in adolescents and adults as well as which pertussis
            antibodies and their serum levels relate to protection. . . . Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis
            cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization
            is relatively short-lived. This is not so; in fact,
            IgG serum antibody titers to B. pertussis antigens in adults who were previously vaccinated are higher than in adults who were primed by disease.. . . Finally, infection and illness occur in persons of all ages and immunity after infection or immunization
            is relatively short-lived, making the ultimate control of pertussis difficult.”

            Plus much, much more! I do suggest you read primary sources rather than woo-meisters’ interpretations of same.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 3:44 pm #

            Worth repeating… James Cherry:
            “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 4, 2017 at 3:54 pm #

            Hoisted by her own petard….again….

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 8:21 pm #

            The Pertussis Vaccination gave my child Pertussis. It sheds. Many people are walking around “Shedding” the diseases due to the Vaccinations which causes them to spread. 99% of the MMR outbreaks are people already Vaccinated with the MMR Vaccine. It doesn’t work, but it does cause Autism. Your not much smarter than a Baboon. You are an ugly, ignorant Registered Nurse now aren’t you??

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            January 4, 2017 at 10:15 pm #

            Really? How was it diagnosed? Wait, don’t tell me; you diagnosed it yourself.

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 11:25 pm #

            MD made that statement to me. Another one of my children had seizures from the MMR per the ER MD it was the MMR Vaccination. After that I told my PCP no more Vaccines at our next unnecessary well child check. He locked the patient room door, threatened he would have my child taken away, call the state on me, and with one hand grabbed my child and in his other hand was a Vaccine he Forced into my child and made my child very sick. Good thing I had Lipo. Vit. C and black charcoal!! That abuser assaulted my child and he should have gone to Jail!!! Take your Vaccine ideology and shove it, you know where!!!!

            Vaccines caused me injury as well.

            But, on another note I am really good at diagnoses.. I knew I had Lyme disease for years told over 30 MD’s asking for help and testing over a 9 year period. Most of them were Harvard IDIOTS!! I also told them a Surgeon left something in me from a previous necessary surgery for 4 YEARS and I was right.. Again, IDIOTS just like you!! Conventional Medicine is the “kiss of death”..

            Get this Harvard Women…. I use all natural medicine that has cured and healed my body and supported and improved my IMMUNE System… Do you know what that is? Amazing what all natural “Chinese Medicine” can do. Colloidal Silver, Oregano Oil, Lipo. Vit. C etc saved my life. You conventional medicine doctors are evil patient predators that has lead to the 2nd leading cause of death in America aka Harvard Idiots ERRORS.

            So your a Harvard MD who can’t hold an MD job and blogs for a living. Get real.. You elites think you control people and you do the most harm. Shut up and learn something…

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            January 4, 2017 at 11:30 pm #

            You expect me to believe that nonsense?

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 11:50 pm #

            Of course not. You haven’t practiced Medicine in years… You don’t have a clue what’s really going on. You’re a stay at home mom who blogs for a living pretending to be an MD. I on the other hand have worked in the Medical Field for over 20 years. I see what’s going on. I see the physician practices contracts too… I see their push for productivity by keeping people sick… Unnecessary Surgeries to fill the O.R. The 40k bonuses for fully vaccinating 100 kids and boy don’t those doctors want that money…. I see an increase in patients dying from Candidas Disseminated… Is that not sad….. They jack these kids and patients up on Antibiotics and never tell them they need to take a Probiotic. They, themselves take Probiotics, but won’t even take a few minutes to teach it to their patients and instead watch them die of Candidas Disseminated. Most MD’s don’t Vaccinate their own children. The list goes on and on and on. I see Vaccinations not being stored correctly at PCP’s offices before. I see Surgeons botching surgeries on multiple young patients, OB Surgeons and nothing done to stop it. They don’t care about Vaccine injury either.. It just makes more patients for them. Bottom Line: Vaccines Cause Injury. We should all be looking at what we can do to change that. I bet your husband is an MD. You like those Vaccine 40k incentives for Vacations…. No worries, no big deal that you most likely ruined some kids life by giving him Autism. You are a prime example of MD’s ignorance.

          • momofone
            January 4, 2017 at 11:57 pm #

            *You’re. It’s you’re. If you’re going to go on and on about how ignorant people are, at least use the correct word.

          • momofone
            January 5, 2017 at 12:09 am #

            No, she actually is an MD. You’re the one pretending to be one: “But, on another note I am really good at diagnoses.”

          • momofone
            January 4, 2017 at 11:41 pm #

            So it took you nine years to find someone who would finally say what you wanted to hear.

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 11:56 pm #

            No it took 9 years for them to finally test me for Lyme which was positive. Idiots…

          • momofone
            January 4, 2017 at 11:57 pm #

            So do “normal balanced” people come in throwing around threats to doxx people? Because that seems completely ABnormal and IMbalanced to me.

            Also, I’m not in the medical field, but I’m flattered you would think so.

          • momofone
            January 5, 2017 at 12:05 am #

            Gosh, Piece, it seems like part of your original comment has disappeared. Surely you didn’t delete it?

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 5, 2017 at 10:37 am #

            Lyme doesn’t work like that; its not malaria

          • MaineJen
            January 5, 2017 at 11:22 am #

            Okay, this is clearly a poe

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 8:08 am #

            He locked the patient room door, threatened he would have my child taken away, call the state on me, and with one hand grabbed my child and in his other hand was a Vaccine he Forced into my child and made my child very sick.

            https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder888/400x/55770888.jpg

          • Chris Preston
            January 4, 2017 at 11:46 pm #

            The Pertussis Vaccination gave my child Pertussis. It sheds.

            You are a complete and utter ignoramus. The pertussis vaccine is acellular. Go and look that word up. It means without cells. There is absolutely no way outside of the ravings of complete fantasists that the pertussis vaccine could give a child pertussis.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 5, 2017 at 8:28 pm #

            I dunno… I think maybe he has sheds on the brain seeing as how he likely lives in one.

          • shay simmons
            January 5, 2017 at 11:03 pm #

            She’s smart enough to know that the pertussis vaccine can’t shed because it’s acellular, that most outbreak victims are unvaccinated, and that the MMR doesn’t cause autism…which makes her smarter than you are.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 5, 2017 at 4:23 pm #

            This is what James cherry said:
            “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 2:52 am #

            Cia’s “own words” include a lot of talk about “force fields” and “hard drives”.
            Perhaps she has a children’s science encyclopaedia to hand, or some book on the science of Star Wars?

            Cia, can you explain why pertussis infections were asymptomatic in baboons who were vaccinated?

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 10:59 am #

            We’ll clearly these are not cia’s own words. It doesn’t sound like her prose and the formatting is a bit screwy.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 1:08 pm #

            She is channeling Hilary Butler.

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 1:37 pm #

            Ahh! I don’t believe I know who Hilary Butler is! I’ll have to look her up.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 2:44 pm #

            She is the “beyond conformity” link she gave somewhere.
            A rabid antivaxer from New Zealand.

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 4:05 pm #

            And “they” say all the kooks live in the US!

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 8:15 pm #

            Ohh look it’s Mike Stevens… How ya doing???

          • FallsAngel
            January 4, 2017 at 7:21 pm #

            I don’t think you know any more about computers than immunology.

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 8:13 pm #

            Your correct ciaparker2… All these ugly ignorant people throwing around insults are in bed together. They are a team that trolls and pushes propaganda… They don’t want truth coming out. One is a very, very ugly Registered Nurse aka FallsAngel. Her bed buddy is Reality022, Mike Stevens and a few others here.

            FYI: Ugly Trolls mentioned above = Keep it up and I will expose your names with your comments “Publicly”…..

          • ciaparker2
            January 4, 2017 at 9:19 pm #

            Thank you, Piece, I appreciate your efforts to bring the truth to light!

          • Roadstergal
            January 4, 2017 at 9:31 pm #

            Put up or shut up, cia. Organic food sales and exclusive breastfeeding rates both correlate very well with the rise in autism diagnoses, so show us your own ‘gold standard’ research proving those aren’t the cause.

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 11:30 pm #

            You are welcome. I enjoyed reading your information. I have Lyme and what your saying is accurate.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 5, 2017 at 10:40 pm #

            Truth? The truth is I have sat with mothers that would lay their lives down to have their children vaccinated. Truth is vaccines have an armed perimeter as they are valued commodities, we never had protection for ourselves. Truth is vaccine preventable diseases are in the top 5 cause of childhood mortality globally.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 10:44 am #

            Globally means millions of malnourished children in the Third World. Their parents must try to make the best choice under the circumstances, which may or may not mean accepting any or all of the vaccines on offer for them.
            Children in the First World are at close to zero risk of dying from any VPD, with or without vaccines. And we must make the best decision for our children under our circumstances. As a group, completely unvaxxed children are much healthier than vaxxed ones, although on an individual basis that may not always be the case.
            Any mothers who would lay their lives down to have their children vaccinated are not in possession of all of the facts, which are readily available online and in many books.

          • MaineJen
            January 6, 2017 at 4:51 pm #

            …so it’s not just a nasty rumor. You really *don’t* care about kids in other countries.

            Not only ignorant, but racist.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 5:21 pm #

            As a group, completely unvaxxed children are much healthier than vaxxed ones

            No, they aren’t.

            http://www.biotech-now.org/health/2017/01/new-study-highlights-tremendous-social-value-of-childhood-vaccination

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 5:58 pm #

            Really all boils down to what you mean by ‘facts’ doesn’t it, Humpty?

            A person who has never heard of PANDA, but then rushes off and googles it, decides her child probably has it, then proceeds to advise people on this site about how to deal with it, might not be the best person to be reciting the value of facts.

            And I can’t even go into the whole strep throat (I think we call it tonsilitis) scarlet fever circus.

            I guess if you can’t muster some compassion for that poor child of yours it’s ridiculous to expect you have any to spare for those actually less fortunate.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 6:54 pm #

            nwmt

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 7:13 pm #

            Sure, sure.

            I can see it would be embarrassing for you to have your positions summarised in such a brief yet accurate format.

            Anyone who thinks making a child ill, deliberately, then refuses care for that child, is mentally unwell.

            How did that dentist visit go? Did you take the pain relief?

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:24 pm #

            Seems like your time is worth so much, you wouldn’t spend so much of it writing paragraph after paragraph of bullshit, over and over, then only suddenly decide that it wasn’t worth your time when you get called on the complete and utter indefensibility of your nonsense.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 7:07 pm #

            “Children in the First World are at close to zero risk of dying from any VPD, with or without vaccines.”
            Only since vaccines were introduced, Cia. Before that, in the USA alone, over 10,000 kids died each year from the infections which subsequently have been prevented by vaccinating.
            You want us to return to that era. You are sick in the head.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 7:17 pm #

            Measles was not a threat in the First World in the twenty years or so before the vaccine. Everyone got it, including you and me. No one worried about it. Pertussis was not a threat in the First World either by mid-twentieth century. In Sweden, even though they didn’t give the vaccine from 1989-1997, and vaccine writer Arthur Allen says that 60% of Swedish children in those years got pertussis, there was an average of less than one death a year from it.
            I want to return to the era before autism and rampant autoimmune disease. In the ’60s there were millions of happy, healthy, bright, polite children everywhere. Nearly all of us got measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox, and no one had ever heard of autism. 30 students per class, and all of us could speak, reason, remember, read, and write. No aides or paras in any classroom. Now there are autistic kids everywhere, paras in every classroom, and our society has no idea at all how it’s going to support them. As you said yourself, only 10% ever have a full-time job.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 7:44 pm #

            I went to school in the sixties, with a bunch of kids who spent most of their time on the verandah outside the classroom, or in the principal’s office, because of their bad and disruptive behaviour. Mostly boys. They could have done better with some of the help you describe.

            The rate of full time work is going down for everyone, due to the effects of globalisation and mechanisation. There are plenty of university graduates ,with professional degrees, who can’t get work.

            You want to return to something that never existed.

          • kilda
            January 6, 2017 at 8:38 pm #

            the autistic kids back in the 60s were largely diagnosed with mental retardation, because autism was not well known at the time and was greatly underdiagnosed. And they weren’t in your classroom because back then kids with any kind of special needs were in separate classes, and often separate schools.

            Prior to 1975 children with special needs did not even have a right to free public education under federal law, and many of them didn’t get to go to school.

            the autistic and otherwise disabled kids still existed then, you idiot. It’s just that the concept of putting them in regular classrooms with aides to help them was not a thing yet.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 6, 2017 at 9:07 pm #

            Hell, my MIL got a lot of flack in the early 80s from older family members for sending Dem to regular school rather than blindy school. Kids (and adults) who had any number of things were hidden away until quite recently

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 9:50 pm #

            Well, idiot, look at the statistics of this study by North Dakota scientists in 1987 who looked at the educational and medical records of every single last child in North Dakota and found an autism rate of three in 10,000. Your narrative was crafted by vaccine companies to try to keep suspicion away from vaccines for as long as possible. Idiot.

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html

            A Prevalence Study of Pervasive Developmental Disorders in North Dakota
            Article in Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 26(5):700-3 • October 1987

            To determine prevalence rates for the pervasive developmental disorders (PDD) in North Dakota, all relevant health and service providers were asked to provide names and records of all patients who had autistic symptoms. All identified patients were seen by the authors for a comprehensive evaluation. Of North Dakota’s 180,986 children, ages 2 through 18, 21 met DSM-III criteria for infantile autism (IA), two met criteria for childhood onset pervasive developmental disorder (COPDD), and 36 were diagnosed as having atypical pervasive developmental disorder (APDD) because they met behavioral criteria for COPDD before age 30 months but never met criteria for IA. The prevalence rates were estimated at 1.16 per 10,000 for IA, 0.11 per 10,000 for COPDD, and 1.99 per 10,000 for APDD. The combined rate for all PDD was 3.26 per 10,000 with a male to female ratio of 2.7 to 1. Results are discussed in relation to previous prevalence studies using other diagnostic criteria.

          • Azuran
            January 6, 2017 at 9:19 pm #

            My mom has a 55 years old autistic cousin. Of course, back when they were kids, she was ‘retarded’ and had ‘mental problems’. She was only diagnosed with autism around 15 years ago.
            Oh, pertussis was not a treat? Two babies died of it last year close to where I live.
            Yea, the 30 students in my class in high school could speak. But half of the 30 student in the special need class couldn’t. Yea, we had one of those.

          • Acleron
            January 7, 2017 at 8:57 am #

            Vaccines cause impoliteness in kids? You are unhinged.

          • shay simmons
            January 7, 2017 at 6:17 pm #

            “I want to return to the era …”

            When children died, were maimed, or spent weeks in bed due to diseases we can now prevent. Well, that makes you a pretty $hitty person, parker.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm #

            And when children spend their lives screaming in agony from the pain of their autistic enterocolitis, when they are trapped in silence and loneliness because the language center of their brain was destroyed by vaccine encephalitis and they can neither understand nor produce language, when they spend hours lining things up or pounding on doors, trapped in a brain damaged by vaccines, unable ever to converse with a friend, read a book, think about God and the nature of life, travel the world thinking about their place in it, work in a fulfilling job serving other human beings or the natural world, enslaved by an immune system screwed up by vaccines and torturing them with autoimmune disease, they have you to thank for their parents not having had the information they needed to make an informed vaccine decision. And they made the wrong one. Thank you, Shay, for maiming and destroying the lives of not only the millions of autistic children towering up into a tsunami which will not be deniable much longer, but those of their immediate and extended families.

          • shay simmons
            January 7, 2017 at 6:34 pm #

            There’s a slight problem with your melodrama, parker — you can’t prove that a) there is an autistic “tsunami,” or b) that it was caused by vaccines.

            You are a liar, a sadist, and a fool.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:53 pm #

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-978-impossible.html
            Bear in mind that the autism rate has gone up just since he wrote this update, and is now at one in forty kids in the US. Just read yesterday figures on how the autism explosion in Scotland is beginning to melt down social services, as it will soon do everywhere. I don’t know what’s going to happen when the taxpayer realizes that it’s going to be a question of either quadrupling his taxes or letting the autistic starve or get run over on the streets.
            As for being caused by vaccines, read the book The Age of Autism, the anthology Vaccine Epidemic, Evidence of Harm, When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hep-B Vaccine and Autism, and Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? Or dozens more, but these are among the best. There is no doubt.

          • shay simmons
            January 7, 2017 at 7:28 pm #

            This is what your “among the best” Buttram says is really vaccine encephalitis.

            “The autopsy revealed bleeding around the brain, in the eyes and in the spinal column. There were bruises on the sides of his head. Another thing that the autopsy showed was four broken ribs. These fractures had started to heal, and therefore indicated a pattern of physical abuse prior to the date of death. The father admitted to holding the baby by his feet and hitting him shortly before he died.”

            You are even more loathsome than I thought, parker.

            https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-antivaccine-lie-that-just-wont-die-shaken-baby-syndrome-is-really-due-to-vaccine-injury/

          • Nick Sanders
            January 7, 2017 at 9:33 pm #

            So many problems that don’t exist…

          • shay simmons
            January 8, 2017 at 5:50 pm #

            The era before autism? Go read up on King George VI’s brother, Prince John.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 6:22 pm #

            Prince John had epilepsy. He was able to speak coherently and express himself. He did not have classical Kanner’s autism, which is what we mean when we talk about children having autism. The first cases of autism were caused by the smallpox vaccine: a number of children who were developing normally got it, lost their language, and started doing crazy things like picking up hot coals with their bare hands. We know this from the records of Bedlam Asylum, where many of them were taken.

            After that, the first cases of Kanner’s autism were in Kanner’s time, the ’30s and ’40s, when he described children who had reacted to the mercury-containing diphtheria shot with symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism. Some reacted to the mercury-containing fungicides which their fathers were developing for the first time. Later, many children would get autism as a result of vaccine encephalitis, which can be caused by any vaccine.

          • Empliau
            January 8, 2017 at 6:53 pm #

            In Heaven’s name, stop dropping Kanner’s name as if it meant you understood the history of autism. He hired people who had been working with Asperger in Vienna and changed the definition of autism – blaming so-called refrigerator mothers for their children’s difference – instead of the wide continuum of difference Asperger saw. Asperger was publishing on, and treating children with, autism years before Kanner “discovered” it.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:59 pm #

            Complete garbage, yet again Cia.
            Do you have a book of Antivaccine Faerie Tales as your source?

          • shay simmons
            January 8, 2017 at 7:08 pm #

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_John_of_the_United_Kingdom

            Citations needed for every single one of your statements.

            Kanner didnt invent autism; he simply gave it a more accurate diagnosis.

            And not only did the smallpox vaccine in the days of Bedlam not contain mercury, the symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are quite different.

            There is so much else that’s laughably untrue about your post (autism went away, simply vanished, until Kanner showed up? Only the children of men working with fungicides were autistic.?).

            Why do antivaxxers always lie? And not only lie, but tell such whoppers?

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 7:20 pm #

            Obviously the smallpox vaccine had no mercury. When it caused autism, it was because it had caused vaccine encephalitis, which is the most common cause of autism now.
            Dr. Kanner said in 1943 that autism was so strange, with such distinctive symptoms, that if it had existed anywhere before, someone would have recorded it, but no one ever had. He was unaware of the dead files at Bedlam Asylum, later uncovered by the authors of Age of Autism. But Dr. Kanner diagnosed the first cohort of autistic children, all born in the 1930s, mercury having been put in the diphtheria vaccine in 1932.
            Other than a few children damaged by vaccine encephalitis from the smallpox vaccine in the early nineteenth century, there was no autism until mercury in vaccines in the ’30s.

          • corblimeybot
            January 8, 2017 at 7:36 pm #

            Haaaaaa hhhaaaaa haaa, there is just no hope for someone who displays this level of idiocy with every word they say.

          • shay simmons
            January 8, 2017 at 7:44 pm #

            Citations needed for all of these claims.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 5:37 am #

            Sigh….more lies and disinformation from Cia.

            I have told you several times before, Cia…. When Kanner gave a presentation to the annual conference of the National Society for Autistic Children at their first conference in 1969, he said:
            “I never discovered autism. It was there before.”

            Why do you persist in lying that he felt it was a quite new phenomenon?

            Vaccines do not cause autism. If they did you would be able to point us to a substantial body of verified research that confirms the association and the causation. That you have never done.

            PS: Please read “Neurotribes”. It is an objective account of the history of autism, and has won many literary awards.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 15, 2017 at 6:42 pm #

            Funny how so many vastly different things apparently all cause the same symptoms. It’s almost as if it’s being pulled out of someone’s ass.

          • ciaparker2
            January 15, 2017 at 7:00 pm #

            It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism. It would be interesting to differentiate how the types of autism caused may be different. For instance, mercury poisoning can cause hand and arm flapping, a well-known symptom of autism. I was very sad and it contributed to ending my denial of my daughter’s autism when I saw her run at the playground flapping her hands in the air as she ran. What I am not sure of is whether vaccine encephalitis in the absence of mercury could also cause hand and arm flapping. Obviously both cause a certain type of brain damage which we call autism. But it is possible that some symptoms are only found with mercury poisoning, others maybe only with vaccine encephalitis in itself. Future scientists will study this and we’ll find out (once the current situation controlled by the pharma industry ends).
            Mercury is mercury. It can cause autism. Victims of mercury disasters from fish and grain contaminated with mercury have shown these same symptoms. Dr. Kanner’s first cohort of autistic children displayed similar symptoms whether their poisoning was from diphtheria vaccine mercury or from fungicide mercury.
            However, symptoms like shyness, social awkwardness, or strange behavior, even seizure disorders like epilepsy, are not enough on their own to establish a diagnosis of autism. You have to establish a pattern of severe abnormality in language development or use, in social interactions, and in repetitive, nonfunctional behaviors (stims and obsessions), a certain number of them, on which to base a diagnosis of autism.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 15, 2017 at 7:24 pm #

            It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism.

            Nope.

            For instance, mercury poisoning can cause hand and arm flapping,

            Wrong twice over. Firstly, mercury doesn’t cause that. Secondly, similar symptoms wouldn’t mean it caused autism even if it did. For comparison, about a million different things cause a fever, but that doesn’t mean they all cause the flu, which has fever as well known symptom.

            http://vaccine.fyi/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/mercury-poisoning-autism-they-are-nothing-alike-comparison-of-diagnostic-signs.jpg

            What I am not sure of is whether vaccine encephalitis in the absence of mercury could also cause hand and arm flapping.

            “Vaccine encephalitis” isn’t an actual thing, so there’s nothing it can or can’t cause.

            Obviously both cause a certain type of brain damage which we call autism.

            Again, wrong twice over: Autism is not “a type of brain damage”. And neither mercury nor imaginary encephalitis cause it.

            Future scientists will study this and we’ll find out (once the current situation controlled by the pharma industry ends).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZl-kQ3JFNI

            Victims of mercury disasters from fish and grain contaminated with mercury have shown these same symptoms.

            No, they showed symptoms very different from autism.

            Dr. Kanner’s first cohort of autistic children displayed similar symptoms whether their poisoning was from diphtheria vaccine mercury or from fungicide mercury.

            They weren’t poisoned.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 15, 2017 at 8:01 pm #

            “It has been recognized for a long time that both mercury and vaccine encephalitis can cause autism.”

            Recognised by whom, Cia?
            You? Your phalanx of antivax cronies?

            When you show that this is a genuine medical problem, by citing some valid peer-reviewed science on the subject, then you might have something to go on. Til then, stop spamming the lies all over the internet.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 7, 2017 at 6:34 pm #

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4f16becc50471aece34a44ae54bc70649cbd432a48c4e49b0dcca486cb00215a.gif

            Yup, tons of malnourished in the Third World. Was not aware the US was classified as Third World yet; but give it time.

            Piss off with your sanctimony.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 11:12 pm #

            Your point being? Drs. Greenfield and Ditchek, who published Whole Child, Healthy Child in 2001, wrote that pediatric flu deaths were uncommon: that flu was very rarely dangerous to healthy children, and they didn’t recommend that healthy children get the flu vaccine. It wasn’t that NO deaths occurred, but they weren’t common. These doctors said that injury from the vaccine was more common than injury from flu for this group; Dr. Ditchek said he had seen a case of Guillain-Barré paralysis caused by it.

            Every parent must make the decision for his or her own family. It’s possible that even a healthy child might conceivably die of flu; also possible that he will be killed by the flu vaccine, as Kaylynne Matten was. Piss off with your vast, pharma-sponsored scorn for those damaged or killed by vaccines. We are very real.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 8, 2017 at 10:48 pm #

            First; Kaylynne Matten, cause of death undetermined. If you know something the Vermont medical examiner does not, you should give them a call.

            Second; over a year ago I asked you what science, or evidence could convince you to reconsider your position on vaccines. You replied, if you recall, none. Science, like life, is a learning adventure. Being proven incorrect (or just wrong) is an invitation to learn something knew. This excites scientists and students of life alike.

            With your response I knew two additional things about you; you are not half as smart as you think, and you need our pity more than our scornful words. I really do feel badly for you.

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 2:56 am #

            “What science could convince you to reconsider your position on vaccines?” you ask.
            How about the science that shows the rates of autism, seizure disorder, SIDS, and autoimmune disease in unvaccinated population. i am tired of hearing how all those disorders are temporally related to vaccines and would have happened anyway. Such BS and totally not backed up by science.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 14, 2017 at 9:47 am #

            A novel, yet not intellectually sound dichotomy.

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 11:06 am #

            novel.? This argument is the foundation of anti vax position that the safety studies are flawed. How would you research cancer incidence as a result of smoking if everyone smoked? It would be very easy to say that some people get cancer because of their genetics.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 15, 2017 at 6:40 pm #

            How would you research cancer incidence as a result of smoking if everyone smoked?

            By comparing the cancer rates in those that smoked more to the rates in those that smoked less.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dose–response_relationship

          • Jack Sprat
            January 23, 2017 at 10:09 pm #

            Jen, sorry for the delay, something about having a life gets in the way.
            Current safety studies, to the best of my knowledge, are not flawed. If you have some information that is contrary please send it along. What knowledge science has provided confirms vaccines are safe and there is no causative relationship between vaccines and autism. Can we at least concur on that?

          • Nick Sanders
            January 14, 2017 at 10:07 am #

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342

            There’s SIDS. I can link to info about some of the others later, but it’s a bit more extensive, and I need time to do it properly. Time which I don’t have at the moment.

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 10:53 am #

            Unfortunately this study does not give statistical data on the SIDS rate in unvaccinated infants. You assume that the SIDS rate is the same in vaxxed and unvaxxed, but your assumption is not backed by science.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 14, 2017 at 11:02 am #

            No, I assume the SIDS rate is half in vaxxed, compared to unvaxxed, based on the study. Why on earth would I assume it was the same?

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 11:32 am #

            This paper analyzes case studies and their temporal relationship to vaccination. How can case studies show statistical information of the incidence of SIDS in unvaccinated populations? I think this is pretty basic science. I wouldnt try and prove epidemiology or incidence to you by using case studies of vaccine injuries.

          • jen
            January 15, 2017 at 12:56 pm #

            No, these studies compare SIDS rates percentages per year to vaccine uptake percentages per year. Non of the studies in this metaanalysis look at unvaccinated rates of SIDS. These studies remind me of that book, Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

          • Azuran
            January 14, 2017 at 11:21 am #

            It said the SIDS rate in vaccinated infants is half the rate of those unvaccinated. Do you even read?

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 11:26 am #

            This study is comparing temporal relationships. It does not say that the children were not vaccinated.

          • Azuran
            January 14, 2017 at 2:33 pm #

            And have you provided a study showing that SIDS rate is higher in vaccinated children?

          • jen
            January 14, 2017 at 8:16 pm #

            Yes I have read these studies. The conclusions are based on years when vaccination uptake was reduced compared to the SIDS rate of that year. The authors use the 1980’s to 1990 and 1990 to 2007 as comparisons. The problem I have with these studies is that in 1991 there are 2 other variables that influence SIDS vs vaccine uptake. In 1992, the back to sleep program started. Also two other changes occured that same year. The DTap was intoduced to replace the DTP and the diagnosis of SIDS was modified to include new diagnostic codes. Codes added were, SUID, sudden unexplained infant death, and accidental suffocation. Naturally, adding new codes are going to reduce SIDS diagnosis.

          • Azuran
            January 14, 2017 at 10:46 pm #

            And again, do YOU have any proof that SIDS is more common in vaccinated babies?
            Because everywhere I look, it always either conclude that there is no link or that vaccination appear to lower the risks.

          • jen
            January 15, 2017 at 12:52 pm #

            Its not my job to conduct studies for someone else’s product.The bully’s that harass me to get these injections need to prove safety. Otherwise, I will not participate. Basic, common sense science should not be to much to ask for.

          • Azuran
            January 15, 2017 at 10:11 pm #

            Except that you don’t have a shred of evidence to even justify your fear of SIDS.
            So, basically, you are saying that until we have a double placebo study comparing the rates of every single existing diseases between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, you will never consider vaccine safe.
            And you want us to believe this is actually an open conversation about vaccine safety?

          • shay simmons
            January 16, 2017 at 1:01 pm #

            Its not my job to conduct studies for someone else’s product

            It’s called burden of proof. You make a claim, you provide the corroboration.

          • Azuran
            January 14, 2017 at 10:15 am #

            How about YOU back up your claim by science?
            We have actually backed up our claims a lot. (you just don’t want to bother reading them)

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 5:49 am #

            His point is crystal clear, Cia.
            Paediatric flu deaths are uncommon, but not vanishingly rare as you would have us believe, and Jack provided you with the hard evidence confirming this fact.

            Quoting what a couple of quack doctors said in their book 15 years ago about flu is not a rational counter to the evidence presented.

            You are the one dismissing over a hundred child deaths from flu every year as “no big deal”. You are a heartless, inhumane, callous individual.

            “Piss off with your vast, pharma-sponsored scorn for those damaged or killed by vaccines. We are very real.”
            Nobody has expressed scorn for anyone damaged by a vaccine. Anyone in that situation has my full sympathy.
            However, don’t be at all surprised if people are scornful when you blatantly lie and blame vaccines for every ill known to mankind, or when you invent fantasy scenarios blaming vaccination for the autism your daughter has because she suffers a genetic Neurexin-1 gene deletion and also had prenatal brain oxygen starvation (as you have told us)

          • Nick Sanders
            January 4, 2017 at 10:02 pm #

            Star Trek was meant to be a message of acceptance, peace, and hope. “Patterning [your] life” after it doesn’t mean one is schizophrenic, it means one try to be inclusive and uplifting, ffs.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 5, 2017 at 10:34 am #

            We aren’t trolls. I’ve never been to your antivax sites. *You* came *here* to bother us.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 7:08 pm #

            Please, expose mine would you.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:24 pm #

            Mine to. Go on, do it.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 7:40 pm #

            Yes, mine too.

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 8:09 pm #

            Your nose bleeding yet from all the drugs you snort???

          • Acleron
            January 4, 2017 at 8:22 pm #

            I see the intellectual arm of the antivaxxers has arrived.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 2:36 am #

            You don’t get permanent immunity after natural pertussis infection, Cia.
            I must have proven that to you like 30 times now?

          • January 4, 2017 at 2:46 am #

            That’s the coin slot slug detector in action. She doesn’t like it, so she’s incapable of remembering or processing it.

        • ciaparker2
          January 3, 2017 at 8:44 pm #

          The immune system has two branches. The baby is born with the Th-2 system predominating, the major weapon of which is antibodies, and which makes the development of autoimmune reactions more likely. The Th-1 system is the cellular immune system, and its major weapon is the white blood cells. The task of the baby’s first year is to develop an immune system favoring the Th-1 cellular immune responses. Exposure to the childhood diseases favors the optimal development toward favoring the Th-1 system. Vaccines skew development to favor the Th-2 system.

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 9:11 pm #

            Snort!

          • Piece2016
            January 4, 2017 at 8:09 pm #

            You snorting drugs now FallsAngel? You have got to be the sickest freak ever. Your a drugged out Registered Nurse. oh my, my…. So you and Reality022 are bed buddies who no nothing… Your a wonna be Nurse that no one likes. An ugly, ugly person….. Good thing we don’t work at the same Hospital, you would be gone!! Fired…

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 11:54 pm #

            Tell it to Jack Spratt.

            You should be ashamed.

          • MaineJen
            January 4, 2017 at 10:28 am #

            NOPE

          • Roadstergal
            January 4, 2017 at 4:54 pm #

            “The immune system has two branches.”

            It has way more than that, no matter how you slice it.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 5:38 pm #

            Any knowledge she had of biology stopped at 9th grade.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 5, 2017 at 7:23 pm #

            To give you your due, Cia, you have acquired some knowledge about pertussis and the
            vaccine, and you may have some areas of knowledge that exceeds what some doctors have. But your snippets of information and your “facts” are distorted by being viewed through your biased antivaccine magnifying lens. You seem to have cherry-picked bits of information and misinterpreted them, or selectively favoured them, despite there being fuller information available elsewhere which you have not seen, or that you have deliberately ignored because of your extreme “confirmation bias”.

            It is as if you have been asked to complete a jigsaw of a well known person, and because you think that he must be an evil dictator, you specifically search for pieces
            that come from a moustache, and conclude that the person must be Stalin or Hitler (when the completed jigsaw actually reveals a picture of Ned Flanders).

            Regarding pertussis and the vaccine, one useful source of more recent information I have used has been the supplement on Pertussis in the Journal of Infectious Diseases in 2014. The link to the journal with full text articles is here, I hope you take the time to read it because I know you are intelligent enough to understand much of it, despite not having a medical background. I hope you don’t just scan it for “quote mining” purposes when you catch sight of something that you think you can use to push an antivaccine POV.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/209/suppl_1.toc

            The other useful article I refer you to is a review on T cell responses to Bordetella pertussis infection and vaccination, from 2015. The full text article is here:
            http://femspd.oxfordjournals.org/content/femspd/73/7/ftv051.full.pdf

            Perhaps I can use these comprehensive sources to disabuse you of some of your notions.

            1. The immune response to natural pertussis infection is cleared is not durable
            or “permanent”
            , and many papers exist to demonstrate this. Reinfection often happens despite primary natural wild-type pertussis infection occuring.

            Estimates of natural immunity vary between 4-20 years (although I know you like to quote the single paper that supports your contention it is more than 30 years – Wearing & Rohani). I favour real-world demonstrations of how durable immunity is, rather than a mathematical modelling exercise. Citations include Wendelboe 2005, Hallander 2011, Acosta 2015, Wirsing von Konig 1995, Miller 1997, Versteeg 2002.

            James Cherry, who you have frequently quoted as an expert in pertussis (when it suits
            you) also stated: “Another myth relating to pertussis is that immunity after pertussis cough illness is lifelong, whereas immunity after immunization is relatively short-lived. This is not so.”
            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/6/663.long

            2. The initial response to infection is via both cell mediated and humoral arms of
            the immune system. Regarding T cell responses. adaptive Th1 responses tend to predominate, as you say. In fact, not just a Th1 response, but a Th17 response occurs. Vaccines induce varied responses, with wP predominantly inducing Th1 and Th17, and aP inducing a mixed Th1/Th2 and Th17 response. I agree that the wP vaccine mimics natural infection more closely, which may be one reason it tends to be more effective (though not more durable than the aP vaccine in terms of preventing primary infection). The aP vaccine adaptive T cell response is shifted more to the Th2 end of the spectrum, but Th1 response still occurs. Here I refer you to Gustaffson 1996, as I know you like Swedish studies.

            3. What is extremely relevant is that T cell responses after aP vaccine can be boosted by natural exposure, and shift to a robust Th1 profile. You seem to disbelieve this, since you say that once aP vaccine has been given, there is “original antigenic sin” and future encounters with pertussis will not induce protective immunity. You are wrong.
            Evidence for this comes from several sources, including Zepp1996, Ryan 1998,
            Edwards 2014, Ausiello 1997, He 1998.

            4. It is clear that duration of immunity depends in some part to whether people get natural boosters from exposure to circulating pertussis. This is an important point, and not really touched upon. In communities with a fair bit of pertussis, there will be natural boosting of aP vaccine induced protective immunity, with a switch to Th1 profiles. What will happen if there is very little circulating pertussis is that the duration of aP induced immunity will drop off, and that aP boosters may not restore a fully protective immune profile in the vaccinee. I agree better vaccines are needed (but aP is as good as we currently have, and because it is not perfect, that is not a reason to throw it out of the window.

            5. Various strategies are being examined as to how to improve vaccine induced
            immunity. These evolve, as evidence is accrued. Vaccinating pregnant women seems effective in averting infant pertussis, but we don’t know if it restricts the immune response in the infants once they start their own vaccine shots from 2 months. Timing is crucial. Altering the schedule might be needed.

            Using aP monocomponent vaccine as a booster has merits – not everyone needs
            the DT part of the vaccine – but then there is still the issue of predominant Th2 responses.

            Giving one dose of wP vaccine has been considered. Reintroduction of this would
            be bound to send many antivaxers screaming “blue murder”, but you will see the logic for this, and since most cases of “vaccine encephalopathy” were due to Dravet’s syndrome, and not the vaccine, it may be considered to be of more benefit than harm.

            You are aware of the trials of live attenuated vaccine such as BPZE1, which are encouraging, and we shall have to watch this space. It seems very effective and very durable in animal models, and phase 1 human trials have been completed.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067348/

            Protein conjugated vaccines are another avenue of research.
            http://www.pnas.org/content/111/9/3213.full

            You mention Adenylate cyclase toxin. It is possible that the addition of new antigenic components to the current vaccines may induce a more complete protective response. There have been discussions about adding an inactive form of ACT to the vaccine – this has been discussed by the 64 member expert panel convened in Bethseda, Maryland in 2013 (see ref in the JID source).

            You seem to think vaccines that induce responses to ACT cannot be used – you are wrong. This was first shown back in 1990, and is the subject of current research:
            http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/32/3/medmicro-32-3-173.pdf?expires=1483661672&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=1C1955CDDEE4161A0EC645D9EE6F6390
            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264501983_Adenylate_cyclase_toxin-hemolysin_relevance_for_pertussis_vaccines
            http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/15474718/Adjuvanticity-of-native-and-detoxified-adenylate-cyclase-toxin-of-Bordetella-pertussis-towards-co-ad
            http://iai.asm.org/content/74/12/6797

          • FallsAngel
            January 5, 2017 at 8:43 pm #

            Yes, I think cia probably has more knowledge about pertussis and its vaccine than SOME proctologists, urologists, nephrologists like Suzi Humphries, maybe some neurologists. I don’t know about you, Mike, but when I was in nursing school in the late 60s/early 70s, we didn’t spend a lot of time on CDs. Then again, pediatrics, where the bulk of CDs are, was my last clinical and I couldn’t wait to be done and outta there. Plus, there was no big anti-vax movement in Pittsburgh at that time. I learned most of my stuff when I worked in public health/peds.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 2:27 am #

            Indeed. She still knows less than medically trained and experienced people about most medical issues. Her vast ignorance about treatment, clinical aspects of the diseases and her approach and attitude to diagnosis, therapy, risk assessments etc is legendary.
            In her case, a little knowledge about some vaccines is a dangerous thing.

          • shay simmons
            January 5, 2017 at 9:30 pm #

            I’m almost positive you’ve given her all of this information before…good luck.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 10:05 am #

            She is quite ineducable, really.
            Cognitive dissonance and Dunning Kruger… A powerful combination.

      • Jack Sprat
        January 3, 2017 at 10:20 pm #

        Cia, you know my line of work, and where I do it. I am beginning to mist up as I type this because since we last communicated several months ago, I have attended the mass incinerations of approx 1600 child corpses. The number one non-HIV related culprit is influenza (tied with pneumonia.)

        You and your arrogant self righteousness are the problem, you … I do not have the words for it, you. When we first exchanged I was cordial and patient; always trying to glean from you what I could.

        Hold an infant as they gasp their last breath. Hold two, comfort 12 that die in the same day. Have no words to express to their mothers as the line approaching our gate exceeds 2 miles. Watch the small cooking fires lining the path punctuate the night sky. Awake to the wails of the mothers realizing their child passed in the night.

        I go collect the corpses before the heat of day.

        I am sick of you Cia. Sick to death. Vaccines save lives. There is no discussion.

      • Azuran
        January 3, 2017 at 10:41 pm #

        Oh 16, so yea, we got a full picture of her health through her life. It’s not like she has another 60 years or so of life ahead of her to get other illnesses.

        And you think your kid is healthy because she had all those disease? I’ve got like 1/10th the number of disease your kid had, and I’m 10 years older. How you explain that?

      • kilda
        January 3, 2017 at 11:04 pm #

        gee, that’s so kind of all those viruses, to exist just to train our immune system. And here I thought their purpose was to reproduce themselves. Guess I forgot we humans are the center of the universe.

      • N
        January 4, 2017 at 2:49 am #

        My big one is 9 and he was not ill for two years either. Before that, a lot of colds, ear infections, scarlet fever – treated with antibiotics (!!!) hand-mouth-foot, stomach flues, vaccines,… Now he is perfectly healthy.
        Oh, but he needs braces for his teeth, and probably glasses not long from now.

        • momofone
          January 4, 2017 at 9:25 am #

          If you’d just let that scarlet fever take care of itself, he probably wouldn’t need braces or glasses!

          • N
            January 4, 2017 at 1:37 pm #

            Yes that’s what I thought too. But than again, my little one is just 2 now, had not yet scarlet fever and probably needs glasses. Would that be a vaccine injury than? I mean, there is always a “logical” explanation for everything. It can’t be genetic after all.

          • momofone
            January 4, 2017 at 4:29 pm #

            Definitely a vaccine injury…unless he was born by c-section?

          • N
            January 5, 2017 at 2:24 am #

            Damnit, I knew it was the C-section!

          • N
            January 5, 2017 at 6:51 am #

            Can I still save him from those mean glasses with Vit C? Hey, Vit C to cure damages done by C-section. That is completely “logical”!

          • momofone
            January 5, 2017 at 7:16 am #

            It’s always the C-section!

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:53 am #

            If your eyeballs aren’t squeezed *just so* during passage through the birth canal, they will obviously be malformed and require glasses!

          • N
            January 6, 2017 at 12:14 pm #

            Yes, the squeezing, and something with bacteria in the vagina. The eyes surely need those too, to develop a strong immune… I mean seeing-system.

          • Roadstergal
            January 6, 2017 at 1:16 pm #

            Fun fact, the eyes are an immune-privileged site… keep bacteria outta there!

      • January 4, 2017 at 2:20 pm #

        And after the Black Knight’s training he was the bestest swordsman in all of Camelot. Here’s his training in progress. As you can see, by the end of training he is quite accomplished.
        So, this is how it’s done, eh chia?
        What could possibly be wrong with this ciaparker2 approved method of training?

        youtube(dot)com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4#t=1m46s
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4#t=1m46s

        • shay simmons
          January 4, 2017 at 3:47 pm #

          I have two German Shepherds that I train (obedience & therapy). I keep wondering if parker uses a choke chain or a martingale on her daughter’s immune system.

      • Roadstergal
        January 4, 2017 at 4:54 pm #

        I go for well over two years between illnesses; I get a common cold every three to five years during the cold season, and that’s it. And I was fully vaccinated. Hell, I’m old enough that I didn’t get the MMR – I got separate M, M, and R. I had a bigger antigenic load, more shots, and less sophisticated vaccines than kids have today.

        I call victory for my shitty anecdote over your shitty anecdote, because 16 is pretty damn young to call lifetime health. :p And I got all of that without having to go through any then-VPDs! My youth was full of playing outside, not stuck inside with ‘many contagious illnesses.’ That’s a pretty shitty thing to do to a kid.

        It’s kinda funny how you use phrases like ‘train the immune system’ which are more apropos to vaccination. “Here, boy! See this? Smell this? If you see this or smell this in the future, attack it!”

        • shay simmons
          January 4, 2017 at 7:10 pm #

          For some reason I imagine the immune system’s reaction would be similar. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c16a9932f7d15972cfc4d79c7f417d609b9d2200a0f4db26b6dd3ab9a3bfc30.jpg

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 7:37 pm #

            Did Zogby and Van bequeath you their photo memes before they were compelled to leave?

          • shay simmons
            January 6, 2017 at 7:43 pm #

            That’s my cat, Parker. He is as trainable as any immune system.

        • ciaparker2
          January 6, 2017 at 7:36 pm #

          Vaccines damage and confuse the immune system. They trick the immune system into making the desired antibodies, but in the process cause a lot of dangerous and unwanted processes.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:46 pm #

            Citations or it didn’t happen.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 8:10 pm #

            Aah so antibodies are created, according to cia.

          • Roadstergal
            January 6, 2017 at 8:36 pm #

            You can repeat it all you want, baby doll; it doesn’t make it true.

            Still waiting on those ‘gold standard’ studies showing that breastfeeding and organic food consumption don’t cause autism. The correlation is way better than for any component of vaccines, and while there are plenty of unvaccinated autistic children, I am unaware of any autistic children who consumed no breastmilk or organic produce.

      • NinjaMama
        January 5, 2017 at 12:03 am #

        So, what you’re actually saying is that despite your neglecting to ensure that she received basic preventative health through childhood, your teenage daughter is healthy. Thank your lucky stars. Let’s hope it stays that way, or that she doesn’t kill someone else’s child in the process.

        • ciaparker2
          January 5, 2017 at 8:53 am #

          No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that uninformed people, encouraged in their ignorance by the medical industry which profits so greatly by the ideology, think that sickness, any sickness, is bad and must be avoided at all costs if at all possible. That all symptoms of any disease must be suppressed at all costs. And that’s the way to raise fragile children with weak immune systems, or at least half of these children, victims of the reigning paradigm, will develop neurological disease (autism, seizure disorders, etc.) and/or autoimmune disease (asthma, allergies, diabetes, bowel disease, etc.).

          The more intelligent way to raise children is to breastfeed them until self-weaning for its thousands of benefits, to give them healthy, preferably organic, food so their nutritional status is good, and to avoid vaccines, antibiotics, and drugs whenever possible. Sometimes common sense dictates accepting these measures, which is some cases can be lifesaving. But at this time they are all way overused, and it has led to our current health debacle.

          This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by practice. It does not mean deliberately exposing your child to Ebola or diphtheria. Newborns should be sheltered at home and parents must be very conscious of the need to protect them from germs. As they grow, their immune systems develop and should be gradually allowed to encounter contagious diseases in their everyday life. The formerly universal childhood diseases furnished ideal opportunities for the formation of the child’s immune system: measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox were very beneficial diseases for healthy children to get during childhood. Other diseases like pertussis, flu, rotavirus, and hep-A are also beneficial for children to go through. Meningitis germs are in most people most of the time, and they achieve permanent immunity to them by adulthood. Breastfed children are protected from the strains of meningitis their mothers have been exposed to, through placental immunity and breastfeeding. Children who are not breastfed, especially if they are in daycare, are at higher risk of contracting meningitis, which, in its clinical form, is always a very serious disease and conventional medical treatment (antibiotics) must be sough immediately if symptoms of meningitis present. The parents of these children should research the meningitis vaccines and decide if the risk of the vaccines (considerable) is worth it to prevent the risk of meningitis (not inconsiderable). And by using the words considerable and not considerable, I’m not suggesting that I think the obvious answer is to refuse the vaccines in the case of children at risk. The fewer vaccines the better, but I think if a child were only to get the DT series after the age of two and the Hib series, maybe Prevnar, after the age of four months, he would be at low risk of dangerous reactions. But not no risk.

          My daughter has benefited from my allowing her to get and go through the natural diseases I mentioned.Your comment is just typical of the prevailing meme promoting the production of weak and damaged children.

          • Who?
            January 5, 2017 at 9:27 am #

            Total fantasy.

            Quick question-is all the homeopathy, chelation etc free? If no, is it sold to you by the same people who presrbe it? If it is, how is that appropriate?

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 5, 2017 at 10:30 am #

            organic is merely a marketting term. Salt can never be organic and all kale and twinkies are.

          • MaineJen
            January 5, 2017 at 11:13 am #

            There is clearly no getting through to you. You’re still repeating the same talking points, no matter how much evidence to the contrary you’re presented with.

            Just know that you are 100% wrong. We know it, and I think deep down, you know it, too. You’re too far down the rabbit hole to admit it.

          • JGC
            January 5, 2017 at 11:51 am #

            I’d say diseases that have a demonstrable ability to kill you or result in serious and often permanent adverse consequences following recovery (you know, things like influenza, measles, pertussis, hep C, etc.) are by definition bad.
            Avoid at all costs? Perhaps not. Avoid at reasonable or no cost, for example by implementing public health vaccination programs which protect both those vaccinated and those who for medical reasons are not viable candidates for infection via herd immunity? Hell yes.

          • JGC
            January 7, 2017 at 1:10 pm #

            Are you saying that becoming infected with a fatal disease is a good thing, nick?

          • Nick Sanders
            January 7, 2017 at 9:29 pm #

            So, who’s paying you to post here?

          • Roadstergal
            January 5, 2017 at 6:32 pm #

            “The more intelligent way to raise children is to breastfeed them until self-weaning for its thousands of benefits”

            Like food allergies. And I’m sure that a kid who is wholly uninterested in the breast before 6 months-1 year is ‘self-weaned’ and not just on a ‘nursing strike’ and is to be starved until it’s willing to suck on only boob juice, yes?

            “to give them healthy, preferably organic, food ”

            I’m a big fan of carbon, myself, but some rather nice flavorings are inorganic.

            “This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by practice.”

            Exactly! So, tell me. If your kid wants to learn to walk on a tightrope, do you string one over the Grand Canyon to start, or do you string one 2 inches above the ground in the back yard? If your kid wants to learn to ride a bicycle, do you start her on a strider, or do you clip her into a velodrome bike with no freewheel and push her off on a track? Giving her vaccines is PRACTICE FOR HER IMMUNE SYSTEM. Safe practice. Effective, reliable practice.

            Hey, I ride motorcycles. Come on, I’ll put on you on a race-prepped GSXR1000 and put you in a race in the open class. It’s the best way to start!

            “The formerly universal childhood diseases furnished ideal opportunities for the formation of the child’s immune system”

            Ideal opportunities for kids to be permanently disabled and/or die, and for a lucky few to get some degree of immunity (not lifelong, for the most part).

            “Breastfed children are protected from the strains of meningitis their mothers have been exposed to, through placental immunity and breastfeeding”

            Placental immunity provides transient protection by passing systemic Ig (mostly IgG flavors) to the baby. They get that transient protection no matter how the baby is fed, because placental transfer happens when the baby is attached to the placenta and the placenta is attached to the mom, when the kid is in utero and isn’t being fed anything – I’d have thought that was obvious from the name, but apparently your density approaches neutron star territory. Breastfeeding provides no systemic immunity, because whatever random IgAs make it into mom’s breastmilk aren’t systemic, VPD-preventing antibodies. Placental immunity lasts only a few antibody half-lives – hence the vaccine schedule.

            “I think the obvious answer is to refuse the vaccines”
            Because you are a dumbfuck who is a shining star of Dunning-Kruger.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:47 am #

            What’s funny is you thinking that you’re intelligent because you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 10:54 am #

            “This means recognizing that the only way for children to develop
            strong, healthy, resilient, competent immune systems is to learn by
            practice.”

            You simply do not understand how the immune system works, or what it’s for. If your child has miraculously never been exposed to anything (an impossibility, but let’s go with it for a minute) and one day gets exposed to smallpox, s/he will mount the same immune response as if s/he had had 500 serious infectious diseases. The immune system knows how to work! It doesn’t have to be “trained”.

            You have some nutty idea that if your child has survived measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, diphtheria and pertussis (for example) s/he will survive smallpox when exposed.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 6:51 pm #

            I read your link. This was the very worst that it said about measles:

            “The measles virus is highly contagious and is spread through the air by someone who is unwell with the disease,” Dr Tobin said.”

            Yes, it is very contagious. That’s why 99% of children before the vaccine GOT natural measles. Nearly EVERYONE got it, including me. Everyone born before 1958 is PRESUMED to have had natural measles. But no one back then worried about it. You got it, got a high fever and rash, spent several days in bed, and then the vast, vast majority got well and went back to school. And got the many benefits of measles: permanent immunity, a stronger cellular immune system, developmental strides, the ability to protect future infants in their most vulnerable first year through placental immunity and breastfeeding, and protection from many diseases, including cancers, in later life.
            Being very CONTAGIOUS in no way makes it a malignant disease. It just means it’s easy to catch if someone near you had it.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 7:10 pm #

            I don’t think it was the case that no one worried about it, but they realised they couldn’t do anything to stop it happening.

            There is no ‘permanent immunity’, particularly now people are living so long. My parents, in their 80s, have just had boosters for a number of illnesses they both had in the 1940’s-why? Because they don’t want to get them again. They both had whooping cough, and are appalled by the thought of having it again.

            Breastfeeding does not provide immunity. Having a mother who is immune does, to some extent.

            And of course being very contagious is not what makes it serious, it is the miserable and potentially dangerous, even potentially fatal, illness itself that is the problem. Extremely contagious plus horrible illness is a bad combination, easily avoided by vaccination.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 7:12 pm #

            …The many benefits of measles?
            Death, SSPE, encephalitis, tracheobronchitis, cancrum oris, pneumonia, otitis media, gastroenteritis, deafness, blindness, immune suppression for 3 years after infection, etc?
            Take a hike, Cia.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 7:22 pm #

            A few children had these complications, but the vast, vast majority did not. Now let’s look at the possible adverse reactions to the MMR, from the package insert:

            Body as a Whole Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability. Cardiovascular System Vasculitis. Digestive System Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea. Endocrine System Diabetes mellitus. Hemic and Lymphatic System Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy; leukocytosisImmune System Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history. Musculoskeletal System Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia. Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of infection with wild-type rubella and vary in frequency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in adult females and least in prepubertal children. This type of involvement as well as myalgia and paresthesia, have also been reported following administration of MERUVAX II. Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild-type rubella infection and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic joint symptoms. Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities. Nervous System Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see CONTRAINDICATIONS);subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS); acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transverse myelitis; febrile convulsions; afebrile convulsions or seizures; ataxia; polyneuritis; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia.

          • sdsures
            January 6, 2017 at 7:33 pm #

            Oh noes! I’m on doctor-monitored aspirin 900mg for my severe migraines. (Spent last night in the ER when they and my triptan failed to work. The doctors were very good to me and gave me IV fluids, antiemetics and painkillers when it was clear I couldn’t swallow anything. Pretty wiped out today. History of hydrocephalus along with the migraines means we do not screw around with a non-responsive severe migraine in case it is shunt-related.)

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 8:28 pm #

            Hoisted on your own petard again, cia!
            “Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild-type rubella infection
            and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated
            from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic
            joint symptoms. Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints
            are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates
            for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in
            children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions
            tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a
            matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls,
            the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen
            in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these
            reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal
            activities”

            So the vaccine ONLY RARELY causes the symptom of arthritis caused by the disease. Indeed, everything you listed with the POSSIBLE exception of transverse myelitis can also happen with the diseases, and happens with greater frequency and severity!

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 8:39 pm #

            So between one in four and one in eight women who get the rubella vaccine get chronic arthritis from it. Well, who cares about them?

            The Rubella Vaccine and Arthritis:

            Cooper, L.Z., et al. “Transient arthritis after rubella vaccination.” Am J Dis Child 1969; 118:218-225.

            Spruance, S.L., et al. “Joint complications associated with derivatives of HPV-77 rubella virus vaccine.” American Journal of Diseases in Children 1971; 122:105-111.

            Swartz, T.A., et al. “Clinical manifestations, according to age, among females given HPV-77 duck rubella vaccine.” American Journal of Epidemiology 1971; 94:246-51.

            Weibel, R.E., et al. “Influence of age on clinical response to HPV-77 duck rubella vaccine.” J. of American Medical Association 1972; 222:805-807.

            Thompson, G.R., et al. “Intermittent arthritis following rubella vaccination: a three year follow-up.” American Journal of Diseases of Children 1973; 125:526-530.

            Chantler, J.K., et al. “Persistent rubella infection and rubella-associated arthritis.” Lancet (June 12, 1982):1323-1325.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Prolonged arthritis, viraemia, hypogamma-globulinaemia, and failed seroconversion following rubella immunisation.” Lancet 1984; 1:1475-1476.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Postpartum rubella immunization: association with development of prolonged arthritis, neurological sequelae, and chronic rubella viremia.” Journal of Infectious Diseases 1985; 152:606-612.

            Tingle, A.J., et al. “Rubella-associated arthritis. Comparative study of joint manifestations associated with natural rubella infection and RA 27/3 rubella immunisation.” Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 1986; 45:110-114.

            Institute of Medicine. Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines. (Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1991).

            Benjamin, C.M., et al. “Joint and limb symptoms in children after immunisation with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.” British Medical Journal 1992; 304:1075-78.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 9:00 pm #

            Yes, dipstick cia, and 7 in ten women get arthritis from rubella DISEASE! Who cares about them? Not you! You think whatever happens from disease is just fine!

            Now which is more, 7 in 10, 1 in 4, or 1 in 8? Let’s do this in percents. 70% get arthritis from rubella DISEASE. 12.5% to 25% get arthritis from rubella VACCINE. This is tough, think. Show me your work. Hint: Using the worst figure for the arthritis from the vaccine vs from disease, about three times as many adult women get arthritis from the DISEASE!

            “Arthralgia and arthritis occur so frequently in adults that they are
            considered by many to be an integral part of the illness rather than a
            complication. . . . Arthralgia or arthritis may occur in up to 70% of adult women who contract rubella, but it is rare in children and adult males.”
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/rubella.html

          • Mike Stevens
            January 7, 2017 at 3:52 am #

            And I’d say that a few children had these complications after vaccination, but the vast, vast, vast majority did not.

            So, right back at you.

            But let’s contrast the relative frequency of complications post MMR to those experienced in a country like the UK or USA with measles.

            If one million kids are given vaccine (MMR):
            1000 will have a febrile convulsion.
            30 will get thrombocytopenia.
            10 will get a severe allergic reaction.
            1 will get encephalitis (ADEM)
            None will get autism/SIDS/epilepsy/whatever.

            If one million kids get measles (in Europe or USA, in the 21st century):
            200 will die.
            100,000 – 200,000 will be ill enough to need hospitalisation.
            90,000 will get otitis media.
            80,000 will get gastroenteritis.
            50,000 will get primary viral or secondary bacterial pneumonia.
            5000 will have a febrile convulsion.
            1000 will get thrombocytopenia.
            1500 will get encephalitis (ADEM or SSPE), 100 -150 of whom will die and 300 of whom will have residual brain damage.
            1000 will get various other problems such as hepatitis, myocarditis, or miscarriage if caught in pregnancy.

          • Who?
            January 7, 2017 at 4:16 am #

            This is very interesting, but I’m pretty sure not worth cia’s time.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 7, 2017 at 8:59 am #

            30 vs 1000 getting thrombocytopenia. Yeah, it really sucks to be those 30 but i’d guess they’d have gotten it from either virus or vaccine.

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 7:29 pm #

            And as for measles causing immune suppression for three years, once again I’ll point out again the Peter Aaby study which showed that natural measles infection greatly IMPROVED survival in the subsequent four years:

            It has been assumed that
            measles infection may be associated with persistent immune suppression and
            long-term excess mortality. However, few community studies of mortality after
            measles infection have been carried out. We examined long-term mortality for measles
            cases, sub-clinical measles cases, and uninfected contacts after an epidemic in
            rural Senegal.

            Exposed children developing
            clinical measles had lower age-adjusted mortality over the next 4 years than
            exposed children who did not develop clinical measles (P<0.05). Sub-clinical
            measles cases tended to have low mortality and compared with uninfected
            children, exposed children with clinical or sub-clinical measles had lower
            age-adjusted mortality (mortality ratio (MR)=0.20 (0.06-0.74)). Controlling for
            background factors had no impact of the estimates. When measles infection is
            mild, clinical measles has no long-term excess mortality and may be associated
            with better overall survival than no clinical measles infection.

            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11024418_Low_mortality_after_mild_measles_infection_compared_to_uninfected_children_in_rural_West_Africa

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:33 pm #

            As you are so fond of pointing out about the the dangers of illnesses, that’s in Subsaharan Africa.

            Also, you seem to ignore the parts where it says sub-clinical infections also decreased mortality, and were common in vaccinated children.

            That said, with an N of 184, this proves pretty much dick.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:54 pm #

            I have debunked your misinterpretation of the Aaby study several times before, Cia.
            It doesn’t say what you claim it says.
            YOU ARE A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:27 pm #

            Funny, because when I checked the link, the very worst it said was:

            “Serious and sometimes fatal complications include inflammation and pneumonia”

          • ciaparker2
            January 6, 2017 at 7:34 pm #

            I just looked at it again, and did not see this sentence. It doesn’t matter. Yes, complications sometimes occur and sometimes they can be serious and even fatal. Complication like ear infections, diarrhea, and bronchitis are relatively common and can be treated as they usually are. Pneumonia can occur in one in twenty cases, but is usually viral and self-limiting. When it is bacterial, it can usually be treated with antibiotics. Fatal complications are extremely rare. In 1960 there were four million cases a year of measles in the US, with an average of 450 deaths, a very low mortality rate. Now look at the adverse reactions to the MMR, and let the parents make the decision as to which they’d rather risk.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:46 pm #

            I just looked at it again, and did not see this sentence.

            It’s in the video at the top of the page.

            Complication like ear infections, diarrhea, and bronchitis are relatively common and can be treated as they usually are.

            Except that measles related ear infections have a significant chance of leaving the patient deaf, and diarrhea in the very young (the age group you are saying should be getting deliberately exposed to measles) often causes serious dehydration.

            Pneumonia can occur in one in twenty cases, but is usually viral and self-limiting.

            One in ten, and it’s the most common cause of measles related deaths.

            Fatal complications are extremely rare.

            About 1 to 4 in 1000, depending on on various factors. And given how many million children would get it each year with our population size, that’s a lot of dead kids. Plus, complications requiring hospitalization are at a rate of 1 in 4. Any parent that thinks a disease with that kind of chance of sending their kid to the ICU is “mild” is delusional.

            Plus, as said before, it can leave you deaf. And also blind, or with brain damage from encephalitis. So death isn’t the only consequence of note.

            In 1960 there were four million cases a year of measles in the US, with an average of 450 deaths

            450/4,000,000 = 0.0001125, or 112.5 in one million.

            Now look at the adverse reactions to the MMR,

            <1 in one million.

            and let the parents make the decision as to which they’d rather risk

            Anyone who picks the former after comparing is an enormous idiot.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 8:11 pm #

            I’ve got money on a nwmt response, if you get any response at all.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 8:24 pm #

            ” It doesn’t matter.”

            No, of course not. You can “live with” death!

          • N
            January 8, 2017 at 3:33 pm #

            Especially if death occures to other people. One can totally live with other peoples’ death.

          • momofone
            January 9, 2017 at 8:40 pm #

            Cia certainly can. And it hasn’t happened to anyone she knows, so obviously it doesn’t happen.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 10:40 pm #

            Weasel word of the day-‘usually’.

          • January 7, 2017 at 12:37 am #

            I’ve had pneumonia. It sucked. I was a healthy 15 year old, and I was in the hospital for 4 days and wound up with a permanent susceptibility to upper respiratory infections. If I get a cold, and I get one about every 2 years, I have to do some serious preemptive symptom control or I will get bronchitis, and then I will have to go to the doctor for breathing treatments and/or antibiotics to arrest incipient secondary infections. I will also have a hacking cough for at least two weeks.

            This is likely to continue for the rest of my life. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not a huge deal, but don’t you dare say that a 5% chance of pneumonia isn’t serious.

          • Polak
            January 6, 2017 at 8:42 pm #

            So you would like to go back to the days before measles vaccination,the point of my update was to inform everybody that this is the fifth case in four weeks and who knows when it will end and if any deaths result from this BENIGN disease http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-history-in-america.aspx

        • Mike Stevens
          January 5, 2017 at 4:18 pm #

          She is saying that, despite her sterling efforts to ensure her daughter gets ill (by deliberately infecting her with diseases, and by refusing her vaccinations)

          I wonder if Cia thinks it will benefit her daughter to acquire one of the oncogenes strains of HPV naturally.

          • January 5, 2017 at 4:36 pm #

            Maybe she’ll be blessed with ‘natural immunity’ to cancer? :-/

        • FallsAngel
          January 5, 2017 at 5:42 pm #

          cia would not care if her daughter killed another kid via VPD. The excuse will be “the mother did something wrong”.

          • MaineJen
            January 6, 2017 at 10:45 am #

            Started antibiotics too soon, most likely. Better to wait a few days, let the illness get really out of control, before starting treatment.

    • sabelmouse
      January 5, 2017 at 1:10 pm #

      what utter nonsense!

      • moto_librarian
        January 5, 2017 at 2:58 pm #

        No, it’s not. I’m sick of coddling parents who act like deliberately allowing their children to suffer VPDs that can and do kill are morally superior to those of us who vaccinate. Whooping cough and the chicken pox are miserable experiences that can and do kill people. You and cia deserve moral approbation and public shaming.

        • sabelmouse
          January 6, 2017 at 6:15 am #

          lifelong chronic illness is much worse.
          as is shingles.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:44 am #

            Which is why vaccines are so important. Pertussis can cause asthma and chickenpox is responsible for far, far more shingles than the vaccine.

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:07 am #

            trying stand up again?

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 8:09 am #

            Stand up to your lies, yes.

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:11 am #

            getting slightly funny.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 8:12 am #

            Don’t kid yourself; you’ve never been funny, just tiresome.

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:23 am #

            new level of comprehension issue that you have there.

          • Polak
            January 6, 2017 at 4:39 pm #

            Comprehension?look who is talking.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 8:04 am #

            But hang on, cia and her daughter are both chronically ill, as far as her story goes. They are always off for some treatment or other that, despite being both time consuming and expensive, doesn’t cure either of them. And cia has had shingles, more than once from memory

            That family are hardly a model for the benefit of no vaccination, surely?

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:06 am #

            you seem to have missed a bit. they’re both vaccine injured.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 8:09 am #

            No, they aren’t.

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:11 am #

            and hilarious!

          • Dr Kitty
            January 6, 2017 at 8:19 am #

            You get shingles from chicken pox, but not from chicken pox vaccination.
            Even people who have had chicken pox can have shingles prevented by shingles vaccination.

            In no way does contracting chicken pox stop you from getting shingles, so I’m not sure what your point is.

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:23 am #

            oh dear.
            getting regular, natural booster through interacting with chickenpox infected children is what keeps the shingles away.
            therefore, the chickenpox vax created a shingles epidemic.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 8:23 am #

            Prove. It.

          • Azuran
            January 6, 2017 at 8:32 am #

            Then why did one of my uncle, who had CP, who had children who had CP and who had grandchildren who had CP STILL for shingles?

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 8:35 am #

            o f..k! i’m here again!

          • Azuran
            January 6, 2017 at 8:37 am #

            That’s not really an answer to the question. Why does everyone I know who has shingle are people who had CP? And generally old people, who had kids who also had CP before there was a vaccine. Therefore had ‘natural boosters’ according to your theory?

          • sabelmouse
            January 6, 2017 at 11:07 am #

            no, it’s an exclamation at having made the mistake again of replying to someone in that cozy little community of yours where several people quite clearly just wait for someone to pounce on but none of you are shills.

          • Azuran
            January 6, 2017 at 6:50 pm #

            It’s a public internet blog. If you want to have a one on one conversation, go on skype or text them.
            You think that I would be able to go on an anti-vaxxer blog, make a comment to someone and expect that ONLY that person would talk back to me and that no one else would get involved? Get real.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 7:28 pm #

            Says the person who is “not antivaccine” but spends her time going on and on about how dangerous vaccines are.

          • Acleron
            January 6, 2017 at 9:25 am #

            So you need a ready supply of suffering children.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:43 am #

            Anti-vaxxers also need a supply of suffering children, otherwise they have no purpose to their existence. That’s why I dislike them so much: they depend on and glorify in human suffering.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 6, 2017 at 9:11 pm #

            I prefer to make children suffer via essay exams and broccoli for dinner

          • N
            January 7, 2017 at 3:02 am #

            What? Essay exams and broccoli for dinner? Are you kidding? You are so meeeeeaaaaaaan!

            (I make mine suffer by forcing them to do homework and stopping them at eating chocolate and cake only.)

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 9:54 am #

            Think about this sabel. You’re proposing that kids should get sick with chickenpox and its attendant risk of shingles, in order to prevent shingles in older people who already had chickenpox? First of all, there’s some doubt to this HYPOTHESIS, not theory, and secondly, if no one got chickenpox, no one would get shingles. Well, very few. The rate of shingles in people who’ve received the vaccine is way less than that of people who had chickenpox disease.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 6, 2017 at 10:08 am #

            Does varicella have a non-huma reservoir? If not, we could eventually eliminate the damn thing, then we wouldn’t even have to vaccinate for it, and there would be no shingles at all.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 10:28 am #

            To answer your question, no.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:42 am #

            Of course, you have to believe that vaccinations actually prevent diseases, and not say that better hygiene and spontaneously weakened viruses are what eliminate things like smallpox.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 6:43 pm #

            Grandma:
            “I’d hate to get shingles. I refuse to get the vaccine to prevent it, and so I insist my grandkids become “natural boosters” and suffer chickenpox, despite the risks to them, and the possibility that I’d still get shingles anyway. I’m a really selfish old cow, aren’t I?”

            Works for Sabel, clearly.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:45 pm #

            The vaccine is only 50% effective at best, and close to not effective at all in those over 80. So Grandma is up a creek if she’d rather not get shingles. Does the vaccine lobby give a damn about Grandma? Just as much as they do about innocent children, meaning not at all.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:44 pm #

            100 people a year die of shingles in the UK, far more die of it here. So you’re advocating a sacrificial practice, killing hundreds of adults every year (very few of whom would have gotten shingles before the vaccine), in order to feel justified in making everyone get the vaccine and then boosters for life, to prevent a mild, beneficial disease.

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 8:07 pm #

            You know, cia, you have driven me over the edge. Your post is bullshyte! There, I said it!

            Post a citation for the deaths! Also post a cite for this blather “ery few of whom would have gotten shingles before the vaccine”. You did see Mike’s post that shingles cases are increasing in the UK where they don’t vaccinate for chickenpox?

            Also a cite for this hogwash about lifelong boosters. If you say “bent” you’ll be exposing yourself for the fraud you are.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 8:18 pm #

            It’s in H. Bedford, D. Elliman, Childhood Immunisation: The Fact, Health Promotion, England, 2001.
            Read what I cited. Or google it for yourself. Everyone recognizes that shingles used to be rare, but dozens of studies have established that the varicella vaccine is behind the huge increase in shingles cases. Look at the many studies I cited.
            How many foolish parents in the UK get the varicella vaccine from private doctors?

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 9:11 pm #

            You’re such a lying liar, cia! I put your reference in my browser, I got an abstract and an “opportunity” to pay $10.00 to get the article. Anyway, here’s the abstract: “As vaccine-preventable diseases become less common, concerns about
            possible adverse effects of vaccines take on greater prominence. Often
            it is assumed that because an event has been noted to follow
            vaccination, it is due to the vaccine. This may lead to a ‘vaccine
            scare’ followed by a reduction in uptake and resurgence of disease. Yet
            when the situation is examined properly, it is usually found that there
            is no causal connection between the vaccine and the adverse event. In
            this article, we describe how vaccine safety is assured and some of the
            scares that have arisen in the past.”

            So it doesn’t look like it says anything of the kind.

            And LOL, google it for myself. You have no evidence. You’re in the basket of deplorables!

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:50 pm #

            Lifetime risks for shingles in the UK is 25%, Cia.

            Does that sound rare to you?

            Please reply to my question.

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 9:14 pm #

            No, you’re lying again. In the US, about 96 people die of shingles annually. The population of the UK is about 1/5 that of the US. If the rate is the same there as here, that means about 20 people.

            Again, citation for “boosters for life”.

          • Jonathan Graham
            January 8, 2017 at 7:13 pm #

            Also if I remember the King study correctly (which was one of the earlier studies to suggest that post-infection exposure == prophylaxis) prior to the varicella vaccine there were small numbers of shingles cases in children under twelve. After the vaccine was introduced the number of cases dropped to pretty much zero.

            So not only are we talking about the risks of chickenpox on the younger generation but the vaccine doubters also seem to think it’s ok to inflict shingles on the young as well.

          • Dr Kitty
            January 6, 2017 at 10:20 am #

            Or you know, the elderly people at risk of shingles could get the shingles vaccine, rather than young people being put at risk of by making them catch chickenpox.

            You know that chicken pox can cause encephalitis, pneumonitis, cellultis, necrotising fasciitis, sepsis, cerebellar ataxia, dehydration and coagulopathies?

          • Sarah
            January 8, 2017 at 4:15 am #

            Surely you mean that epidurals cause all those things?

          • moto_librarian
            January 6, 2017 at 10:39 am #

            No, that theory has been discredited.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:41 am #

            I consider it quite natural to provide healthcare to both the young and old, including vaccinations.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:49 pm #

            I don’t. My daughter and I, already disabled by vaccines, wear rubber bracelets which say No vaccinations. But please, I do encourage you to get them all. Every year. Every month once they ratchet it up to that.

          • Who?
            January 7, 2017 at 8:39 pm #

            Enjoy that tetanus when you get it-or rather, enjoy your daughter getting it.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 10:57 am #

            There’s no evidence that that’s so, sabel.
            http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20131202/chickenpox-vaccine-not-responsible-for-rise-in-shingles-study-says#1

          • Madtowngirl
            January 6, 2017 at 12:38 pm #

            No. It has been well-observed that having had chicken pox “naturally” makes you much more like to develop shingles.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 6:19 pm #

            Why is shingles increasing in the UK, which doesn’t vax?
            Why did what you call the “shingles epidemic” start in the US before vzv vax was introduced?

          • sabelmouse
            January 7, 2017 at 7:56 am #

            because we’re not machines, nor is the planet. and yes, you must puzzle this out yourself.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:45 pm #

            So, you can’t answer the questions.
            Thought not.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:39 pm #

            The vaccination can cause shingles in recipients.

            Goldinart GS, King PG, “Review of the US universal varicella vaccination program,” Vaccine 2013, Mar 25; 31(13): 1680-94. Program not effective, cost-effective, and caused a large rise in shingles.

            Goldman, GS, “Cost-benefit analysis of universal varicella vaccination for the US taking into account the closely related herpes-zoster epidemiology,” Vaccine 2005 May 9; 23(25): 3349-55.
            Goldman, GS. “The case against universal varicella vaccination,” Int J Toxicol 2006 Sep-Oct; 25(5): 313-17.
            Goldman, GS, King PG, “Vaccination to prevent varicella; Goldman and King’s response to Myers’ Interpretation of Varicella active Surveillance Project Data,” Hum Exp Toxicol 2014 Aug; 33(8): 886-93.
            Chickenpox vaccination program neither effective nor cost-effective.
            Wu PY, Wu HD, et al, “Varicella vaccination alters the chronological trends of herpes zoster and varicella,” PloA One 2013 Oct 30; 8(10): e77709
            Vaccinating children against chickenpox increases the risk of shingles in teens and adults.

            Thomas, SL, Wheeler JG, Hall AJ. “Contacts with varicella or with children and protection against herpes zoster in adults: a case-control study,” Lancet 2002 Aug 31; 360(9334): 678-82.
            Adult exposure to children with chickenpox protects against shingles.
            Yih WK, Brooks DR, et al, “The incidence of varicella and herpes zoster in Mass. as measured by the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) during a period of increasing varicella vaccine coverage, 19998-2003. BMC Public Health 2005 Jun 16; 5: 68.
            Davies EC, Langston DP, et al, “Herpes zoster ophthalmicus: declining age at presentation,” Br J Ophtahlmo 2015 Jul 15.
            Chickenpox vaccine program decreased cases of chickenpox but increased cases of shingles and lowered the age of infection.
            Ogunjimi B, Willem L, et al, “Integrating between-host transmission and within-host immunity to analyze the impact of varicella vaccination on zoster,” Elife 2015 July 11; 4: e07116.
            Jardine A, Conaty SJ, et al, Herpes zoster in Australia: evidence of increase in adults attributable to varicella immunization? Epidemiol Infect 2011 May; 129(5): 658-65.
            Success of childhood chickenpox vaccination program is causing an increase of shingles in adults.
            Patel MS, Gebremariam A, Davis MM, Herpes zoster-related hospitalizations and expenditures before and after introduction of the varicella vaccine in the US. Infect Control Epidemiol 2008 Dec; 29(2): 1157-63.
            Large increase in hospitalization rates for severe cases of shingles, also large increase for required care, after chickenpox shot introduced.
            Brisson M, Gay NJ, et al, Exposure to varicella boosts immuity to herpes zoster: implications for mass vaccination against chickenpox, Vaccine 2002 Jun 7; 20(19-20): 2500-7.
            Edmunds WJ, Brisson M, et al, Varicella vaccination: a double-edged sword? Commun Dis Public Health 2002 Sep; 5(3): 185-86.
            Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an epidemic of shingles in adults.
            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct 25; 32(52): 7175-78.
            Kelly HA, Grant KA, et al, Decreased varicella and increased herpes zoster incidence at a sentinel medical deputising service in a setting of increasing varicella coverage in Victoria, Australia, 1998 to 2012. Euro Surveill 2014 Oct 16; 19(41): pii=20926.
            It’s not ethical to increase cases of shingles in adults and the elderly by reducing cases of chickenpox in children.
            Chun C, Weinmann S, et al, Laboratory characteristics of suspected herpes zoster in vaccinated children. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2011 Aug; 30(8):719-21.
            Weinmann S, Chun C, et al, Incidence and clinical characteristics of herpes zoster among children in the varicella vaccine era, 2005-2009, J Infect Dis 2013 Dec 1; 208(11): 1859-68.
            Children vaccinated against chickenpox are getting shingles from the virus in the vaccine. Putting details in here for Mike, who said it was only one case. Some of the vaccinated children are getting shingles from the wild varicella strain. Other vaxxed children are developing herpes zoster from the vaccine strain of the varicella virus. The vaccine and wild strains may be in the process of genetically recombining to cause some laboratory confirmed cases of herpes zoster in children who were vaxxed against chickenpox.
            Oh SH, Choi EH, et al, Varicella and varicella vaccination in South Korea. Clin Vaccine Immunol 2014 May 21 (5): 762-68.
            Vaccine in S Korea is ineffective and causing increased cases of disease.
            Merck & Co., Inc. Zostavax, prescribing information, Initial US approval 2006, revised Feb 2014. The shingles vaccine can cause serious adverse events and its long-term efficacy is unknown. Those over 80 who got it had twice as many adverse reactions as those who didn’t. Congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, respiratory infections, and skin disorders increased. After it was licensed, arthalgia, myalgia, anaphylaxis reported. Sensory loss and ophthalmic zoster. Considered 51% effective in adults over 60, but recipients only followed for development of shingles for median of just 3.1 years. For those over 80, vaccine not more effective than placebo.
            Lai YC, Yew YW, Severe autoimmune adverse events post herpes zoster vaccine: a case-control study of adverse events in a national database. J Drugs Dermatol 2015 Jul 1; 14(7): 681-84.
            Fried, RE, Herpes zoster. N Engl J Med 2013 Oct 13; 369: 1765-66 (letter)
            Shingles vaccine significantly increases risk of developing arthritis, alopecia, and other serious adverse events.
            Lal H, Cunningham AL, et al, Efficacy of an adjuvanted herpes zoster subunit vaccine in older adults, NEJM 2015 May 28; 372: 2087-96.
            New shingles vaccine contains AS01B – an adjuvant with unknown long-term effects.

          • moto_librarian
            January 6, 2017 at 10:36 am #

            Getting the chicken pox is what causes shingles, genius. And yes, chronic illness sucks. I have severe asthma, probably caused by lung damage from a bout of pneumonia when I was 5. Do you know what’s even worse? Getting the whooping cough or the flu when you have asthma. I just ran into a colleague who had the whooping cough last year and now has serious asthma as a result. You should stop talking about things that you don’t understand.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:39 pm #

            Asthma is usually caused by the pertussis vaccine, at a time when pertussis is no longer dangerous except for a small number of the very youngest newborns, who rarely get it anyway.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 7, 2017 at 7:17 pm #

            May I be the first to call “BS” on the asthma / pertussis vaccine correlation?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 7, 2017 at 7:54 pm #

            Actually, BS on the asthma/pertussis connection was called days and days ago. Chia pet just ignored it, and tucked it away to pull it out later.

            Same old recycled nonsense

          • Jack Sprat
            January 7, 2017 at 7:57 pm #

            Damn

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 7, 2017 at 8:04 pm #

            Yeah, it’s an old thread that is getting repetitively boring.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 8:10 pm #

            McKeever TM. Vaccination
            and allergic disease: a birth cohort study. Am J Public Health 2004 June; 94(6): 985-89. Those who got DPPT or
            MMR much more likely to get asthma and eczema. DPPT children FOURTEEN times
            more likely than unvaxxed children to get asthma (hazard ratio 14) and 9.4
            times more likely to get eczema. MMR children 3.5 times more likely to get
            asthma and 4.6 times more likely to get eczema.

            Hurwitz EL, Effects
            of DPT or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory
            symptoms among children and adolescents in the US. J Manipulative Physical Ther 2000 Feb; 23(2): 81-90. Vaxxed
            children twice as likely to get asthma and 63% more likely to be diagnosed with
            allergy-related respiratory symptom in previous 12 months.

            Odent MR, et al. Pertussis
            vaccination and asthma: Is there a link? JAMA 1994; 272(8): 592-93. (letter) 446 children around 8 years old
            who had gotten only breast milk in the first six months and nursed for over a
            year. In the 243 children who had gotten a pertussis shot, 10.7% had asthma,
            compared with 2% of those not vaxxed.

            Bersen RM, Nagelkerke NJ, et al. Reported pertussis infection and risk of atopy in 8- to 12-year-old
            vaccinated and non-vaccinated children. Pediatr
            Allergy Immunol 2008 Feb; 19(1): 46-52. Children vaccinated against
            pertussis were significantly more likely than unvaccinated children to develop
            asthma, hay fever, and food allergies. This study evaluated an association
            between pertussis infection and allergic diseases by dividing 1,882 8-12 year
            old children into two groups that were either pertussis-vaccinated or pertussis
            unvaccinated in the first year of life. Pertussis-vaccinated children were more
            than twice as likely as petussis unvaccinated children to have asthma
            (OR=2.24), hay fever (OR=2.35), and food allergies (OR=2.68).

            Kemp T, Pearce N, et al. Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy?
            Epidemiology 1997 Nov; 8(6): 678-80.
            In New Zealand, researchers investigated 1,265 children and discovered that of
            those who received diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and polio vaccines, 23% had
            episodes of asthma while 30% had consultations for other allergic illness.
            Children who did not receive these vaccines had no recorded asthma episodes or
            consultations for allergic illness.

            McDonald KL, Huq SI, et al. Delay in DPT vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood
            asthma. J Allergy Clin Immunol
            2008 Mar; 121(3): 626-31. Getting the pertussis vaccine later than recommended
            greatly decreased incidence of asthma. 11,531 Canadian children were the
            subjects. In those children who did not get the vaccine at two months old but
            delayed at least two months, the risk of asthma was reduced by half. Risk
            declined even further in children who delayed all three initial doses. In those
            who started at two months old, asthma at seven years old in 13.8%. Those who
            started at three months old, 10.3% got asthma. Those who started at 4 months
            old, 9.1% got asthma. Those who delayed
            more than four months of age, 5.9%. (This obviously means that the thousands of
            children who die from asthma every year died because they got the pertussis
            vaccine very early, meaning when recommended by the medical industry.)

            Bremmer SA, Carey IM, et al. Timing of routine immunizations and subsequent hay fever risk. Arch DIs Child 2005; 90: 567-73.
            Children who delayed pertussis, MMR, or BCG shots beyond the recommended age
            (by the medical cartel) were significantly less likely to develop hay fever.
            Two large UK databases of more than 116,000 children examined to look at how
            timing affected incidence of hay fever. Those who delayed the first DPT shot
            until after 1 year old had a 40% reduced risk of developing hay fever compared
            to children vaxxed by 5 months of age as recommended (OR=0.60). Those who
            delayed MMR until after 2 years old had 38% reduced risk of developing hay
            fever as compared to children vaxxed by 14 months of age as recommended
            (OR=0.62). Children who got BCG shot before second birthday had a much greater
            risk of hay fever compared to children who never got it or got it later
            (OR=1.34).

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:44 pm #

            You wouldn’t be the first.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 8, 2017 at 8:16 am #

            Totally explains my father’s terrible asthma since about 1948

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 12:03 pm #

            Did he have the DPT, which started to be given in the US in 1948? Or another one of the pertussis vaccines which were tried over a couple of decades before the DPT? Or the diphtheria vaccine, which started to be given in the early ’20s in the US, and which caused many severe conditions, especially after mercury was added to it in 1932?

          • Nick Sanders
            January 8, 2017 at 1:27 pm #

            You are seriously going to argue against the diphtheria vaccine? Does your idiocy truly know no bounds?

          • FallsAngel
            January 8, 2017 at 1:33 pm #

            No, it doesn’t. Next she’ll tell you diphtheria has decreased in virulence (tell that to all the people in the former Soviet states who got it when the Soviet Union broke up, or the parents of that dead little boy in Spain), that if a child dies from it, the parents are at fault for giving fever reducers, or not keeping the child in bed long enough or some other such piece of witchery, etc.

          • N
            January 8, 2017 at 3:30 pm #

            And vit C will cure everything. You forgot that.

          • Simone Reilly
            January 13, 2017 at 2:04 am #

            I hope you fucking get a disease and die

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 8, 2017 at 9:21 pm #

            He’s German born

          • Montserrat Blanco
            January 9, 2017 at 5:53 am #

            Inmunization against diphtheria in Germany started in 1940s, later than in the USA. In any case, can you please show us a paper published on a scientific journal sustaining your claim about asthma? Because there are reports about asthma in ancient Egypt papyrus of about 3000 years old, so its existence is previous to vaccines.

          • moto_librarian
            January 9, 2017 at 9:34 am #

            Tell that to a colleague who is in his 50s and was diagnosed with asthma after a confirmed case of pertussis. I can assure you that pertussis would land me in the hospital, quite possibly the ICU. You’re a selfish liar.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 10:40 am #

            Is shingles worse than the flu? I never heard of it killing 40 million people like the Spanish Flu did.

            I have a chronic illness. It’s not the cursed life that you seem to imagine it to be.

          • FallsAngel
            January 6, 2017 at 6:41 pm #

            No, shingles isn’t worse than the flu, usually. (There’s always that disclaimer!) But the pain has been known to drive some to suicide.

          • Gæst
            January 6, 2017 at 6:46 pm #

            Good thing we have a vaccine, then.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:38 pm #

            Shingles was rare before the vaccine caused rates in adults to skyrocket. My parents (like everyone else) had had chickenpox, and they never got a case of shingles. I never heard of it when I was growing up. I read that in the UK a hundred people a year now die from shingles. I haven’t read how many in the US, but it must be at least 500 a year. When before the vaccine, there were 100 deaths a year from chickenpox, 50 in children, 50 in adults.

          • Jack Sprat
            January 7, 2017 at 6:43 pm #

            “O’er ladies lips, who straight on kisses dream, which oft the angry Mab with blisters plagues, because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted are.” Shakespeare

            You may also wish to re-read the writings of Hippocrates, as shingles were well described.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 11:03 pm #

            That would be cold sores, not shingles.

          • Who?
            January 8, 2017 at 12:46 am #

            So now you’re an expert on Shakespeare as well? Does your virtuosity know no bounds?

            Your hubris certainly does not.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 11:46 am #

            **

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 11:52 am #

            What is your educational level again? Let’s look at the text: Mab, midwife to the fairies, plagues ladies’ lips with blisters. Cold sores, or fever blisters, ARE caused by a form of the herpes, or chickenpox virus, but are a different strain of the virus than that which causes herpes zoster, or shingles. Zoster means belt, because the lesions occur along a nerve in a line, often encircling one half of the body like a belt. Cold sores usually cause blisters on the lips, but may occur on any mucus membrane. I had a friend who said her mother periodically got cold sores on her arm, so I guess they’re not always on mucus membranes.
            So please explicate the text so as to support the contention that the blisters with which Mab plagues ladies’ lips are really shingles, or herpes zoster. Jeez, the quality of pharma shills is falling off more every day, snark and nastiness being the only required skills.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:38 pm #

            “Cold sores, or fever blisters, ARE caused by a form of the herpes, or chickenpox virus, but are a different strain of the virus than that which causes herpes zoster, or shingles.”

            Wrong again, Cia.
            Cold sores are due to Herpes simplex type1/2 virus, which is different to chickenpox virus.
            Chickenpox virus is Varicella zoster virus, and is exactly the same virus as the shingles virus.

            VZV, Herpes simplex, CMV, EBV, and HHVs etc are all viruses of the Herpes virus family.

            Please familiarise yourself with the facts before attempting to show off your poor knowledge of the subject.

          • momofone
            January 8, 2017 at 11:29 pm #

            Shill argument = no other argument of substance to be offered.

          • ciaparker2
            January 9, 2017 at 12:02 pm #

            I have put up dozens of scientific studies and irrefutable arguments. I submit you and your only upvoter so far, Dr. Amy, are unable to counter my points and so resort to attempting pitifully to play the victim card. Whatever.

          • Zogby
            January 9, 2017 at 5:48 pm #

            https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52946030.jpg

          • momofone
            January 9, 2017 at 7:27 pm #

            You have posted loads of BS-infested woo. And I assure you I am not a victim, yours or otherwise.

          • swbarnes2
            January 9, 2017 at 7:51 pm #

            Your arguments have hardly been irrefutable, and your citations usually don’t say what you claim they say. Which makes you a dishonest person for citing them as if they supported you.

            For instance from your McKeever paper:

            “Results. We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.

            Conclusions. Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema.”

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448377/

            It’s hard to say which drives which, your extreme unshakable vanity, or a thorough, bone-deep dishonesty. The truly irrefutable argument is that you post lies, and don’t feel the normal human shame at being caught.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 10, 2017 at 9:46 am #

            “I have put up dozens of scientific studies and irrefutable arguments.”

            No Cia, you have put up some scientific studies, but have deliberately and maliciously misrepresented their findings or meaning.
            You have also put up numerous citations to non scientific sources and “books” written by quacks, which you seem to think pass muster as valid, peer-reviewed scientific sources, for some reason.
            You have not put up “irrefutable arguments”, in fact every comment you have posted has been filled with fallacies, disinformation or plain lies.
            I have refuted most of these whenever I have read them, using appropriate, verified and valid medical sources and references.

            Quite why you feel you are the purveyor of scientific facts here is beyond understanding. Your lack of insight, and extreme Dunning Krugerism is legendary.

          • FallsAngel
            January 10, 2017 at 10:25 am #

            Who are you to ask about educational level? You won’t tell us when you last took a science class!

          • Gæst
            January 7, 2017 at 6:47 pm #

            Oh what a load of crap. You don’t have a single citation for your figures. Just get the damned shingles vaccination and stop yapping.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:59 pm #

            New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT) by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government’s 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.

            Goldman’s research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.

            Dr. Goldman’s findings have corroborated other independent researchers who estimate that if chickenpox were to be nearly eradicated by vaccination, the higher number of shingles cases could continue in the U.S. for up to 50 years; and that while death rates from chickenpox are already very low, any deaths prevented by vaccination will be offset by deaths from increasing shingles disease. Another recent peer-reviewed article authored by Dr. Goldman and published in Vaccine presents a cost-benefit analysis of the universal chicken pox (varicella) vaccination program. Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases among adults aged less than 50 years, presenting society with a substantial additional medical cost burden of $4.1 billion. This translates into $80 million annually, utilizing an estimated mean healthcare provider cost of $280 per shingles case.

          • Gæst
            January 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm #

            Where’s your evidence that shingles kills more people than chickenpox? Because you’re asking to sacrifice children to chickenpox by advocating ending the chickenpox vaccine. Dead children. I’m not willing to kill children based on one idiot’s internet research, are you? I know the CDC isn’t down with it.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 7:10 pm #

            Read these studies. Chickenpox used to kill fifty children a year and fifty adults in the US, out of a million cases. For the other 399,900 cases a year, it was a benign and beneficial disease. I”m glad I had it and glad that my daughter had it. These studies focus on the dangers that introducing the vaccine have brought in greatly increasing shingles cases which are deadly a lot more often than chickenpox.

            Goldinart GS, King PG, “Review
            of the US universal varicella vaccination program,” Vaccine 2013, Mar 25; 31(13): 1680-94.
            Program not effective, cost-effective, and caused a large rise in shingles.

            Goldman, GS, “Cost-benefit
            analysis of universal varicella vaccination for the US taking into account the
            closely related herpes-zoster epidemiology,” Vaccine 2005 May 9;
            23(25): 3349-55.

            Goldman, GS. “The case against
            universal varicella vaccination,” Int
            J Toxicol 2006 Sep-Oct; 25(5): 313-17.

            Goldman, GS, King PG, “Vaccination
            to prevent varicella; Goldman and King’s response to Myers’ Interpretation of
            Varicella active Surveillance Project Data,” Hum Exp Toxicol 2014 Aug; 33(8): 886-93.

            Chickenpox vaccination program neither effective nor cost-effective.

            Wu PY, Wu HD, et al, “Varicella
            vaccination alters the chronological trends of herpes zoster and varicella,”
            PloA One 2013 Oct 30; 8(10): e77709

            Vaccinating children against chickenpox increases the risk of shingles in
            teens and adults.

            Thomas, SL, Wheeler JG, Hall AJ. “Contacts
            with varicella or with children and protection against herpes zoster in adults:
            a case-control study,” Lancet
            2002 Aug 31; 360(9334): 678-82.

            Adult exposure to children with chickenpox protects against shingles.

            Yih WK, Brooks DR, et al, “The
            incidence of varicella and herpes zoster in Mass. as measured by the Behavioral
            Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) during a period of increasing varicella
            vaccine coverage, 19998-2003. BMC
            Public Health 2005 Jun 16; 5: 68.

            Davies EC, Langston DP, et al, “Herpes
            zoster ophthalmicus: declining age at presentation,” Br J Ophtahlmo 2015 Jul 15.

            Chickenpox vaccine program decreased cases of chickenpox but increased cases
            of shingles and lowered the age of infection.

            Ogunjimi B, Willem L, et al, “Integrating
            between-host transmission and within-host immunity to analyze the impact of
            varicella vaccination on zoster,” Elife
            2015 July 11; 4: e07116.

            Jardine A, Conaty SJ, et al, Herpes
            zoster in Australia: evidence of increase in adults attributable to varicella
            immunization? Epidemiol Infect
            2011 May; 129(5): 658-65.

            Success of childhood chickenpox vaccination program is causing an increase
            of shingles in adults.

            Patel MS, Gebremariam A, Davis MM, Herpes
            zoster-related hospitalizations and expenditures before and after introduction
            of the varicella vaccine in the US. Infect
            Control Epidemiol 2008 Dec; 29(2): 1157-63.

            Large increase in hospitalization rates for severe cases of shingles, also
            large increase for required care, after chickenpox shot introduced.

            Brisson M, Gay NJ, et al, Exposure to
            varicella boosts immuity to herpes zoster: implications for mass vaccination
            against chickenpox, Vaccine 2002
            Jun 7; 20(19-20): 2500-7.

            Edmunds WJ, Brisson M, et al, Varicella
            vaccination: a double-edged sword? Commun
            Dis Public Health 2002 Sep; 5(3): 185-86.

            Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an
            epidemic of shingles in adults.

            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella
            zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical
            perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct
            25; 32(52): 7175-78.

            Kelly HA, Grant KA, et al, Decreased
            varicella and increased herpes zoster incidence at a sentinel medical
            deputising service in a setting of increasing varicella coverage in Victoria,
            Australia, 1998 to 2012. Euro
            Surveill 2014 Oct 16; 19(41): pii=20926.

            It’s not ethical to increase cases of shingles in adults and the elderly by
            reducing cases of chickenpox in children.

            Chun C, Weinmann S, et al, Laboratory
            characteristics of suspected herpes zoster in vaccinated children. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2011 Aug;
            30(8):719-21.

            Weinmann S, Chun C, et al, Incidence
            and clinical characteristics of herpes zoster among children in the varicella
            vaccine era, 2005-2009, J Infect Dis
            2013 Dec 1; 208(11): 1859-68.

            Children vaccinated against chickenpox are getting shingles from the virus
            in the vaccine. Putting details in here for Mike, who said it was only one
            case. Some of the vaccinated children are getting shingles from the wild
            varicella strain. Other vaxxed children are developing herpes zoster from the
            vaccine strain of the varicella virus. The vaccine and wild strains may be in
            the process of genetically recombining to cause some laboratory confirmed cases
            of herpes zoster in children who were vaxxed against chickenpox.

            Oh SH, Choi EH, et al, Varicella and
            varicella vaccination in South Korea. Clin
            Vaccine Immunol 2014 May 21 (5): 762-68.

            Vaccine in S Korea is ineffective and causing increased cases of disease.

            Merck & Co., Inc. Zostavax,
            prescribing information, Initial US approval 2006, revised Feb 2014. The
            shingles vaccine can cause serious adverse events and its long-term efficacy is
            unknown. Those over 80 who got it had twice as many adverse reactions as those
            who didn’t. Congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, respiratory infections,
            and skin disorders increased. After it was licensed, arthalgia, myalgia,
            anaphylaxis reported. Sensory loss and ophthalmic zoster. Considered 51%
            effective in adults over 60, but recipients only followed for development of
            shingles for median of just 3.1 years. For those over 80, vaccine not more
            effective than placebo.

            Lai YC, Yew YW, Severe autoimmune
            adverse events post herpes zoster vaccine: a case-control study of adverse
            events in a national database. J
            Drugs Dermatol 2015 Jul 1; 14(7): 681-84.

            Fried, RE, Herpes zoster. N Engl J Med 2013 Oct 13; 369: 1765-66
            (letter)

            Shingles vaccine significantly increases risk of developing arthritis,
            alopecia, and other serious adverse events.

            Lal H, Cunningham AL, et al, Efficacy
            of an adjuvanted herpes zoster subunit vaccine in older adults, NEJM 2015 May 28; 372: 2087-96.

            New shingles vaccine contains AS01B – an adjuvant with unknown
            long-term effects.

          • Who?
            January 7, 2017 at 8:01 pm #

            The answer to 1,000,000 less 100 doesn’t start with a 3.

            Who?’s life hacks: if there is a catastrophic error in the first paragraph, stop reading.

          • Sarah
            January 8, 2017 at 3:56 am #

            Even leaving aside the numbers for a minute, your conclusion is bollocks. You’re basically defining any case of chicken pox that doesn’t kill as benign and beneficial. Given that some cases didn’t confer immunity and some others came with serious non-fatal complications, that is an untenable argument.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 7:05 am #

            I am interested that you posted this, Cia:
            “Scientists knew that vaccinating children for chickenpox would cause an epidemic of shingles in adults.

            Luyten J, Ogunjimi B, Beutels P, Varicella zoster virus vaccination under the exogenous boosting hypothesis: Two ethical perspectives, Vaccine 2014 Oct 25; 32(52): 7175-78.

            Points:
            1. Have you bothered to read the study? I assume not, because it says absolutely nothing about an “epidemic” (your term).
            2. If you haven’t read the study, why do you pre-suppose it supports your viewpoint?
            3. If you do read the study (please do), you will find it discusses the various ethical dimensions to chickenpox vaccine viz a viz the impact on the epidemiology of shingles in the elderly. It proposes that contractualism is a more valid approach than utilitarianism in this instance.

            4. When you have read the study, I’d be delighted to discuss it with you, as I think it is very interesting.

          • FallsAngel
            January 8, 2017 at 12:29 am #

            She’s lying. Here’s my post from three hours ago:No, you’re lying again. In the US, about 96 people die of shingles annually. The population of the UK is about 1/5 that of the US. If the rate is the same there as here, that means about 20 people. Now I think any death is sad, but if you can “live with” 500 deaths annually in the US from measles pre-vaccine, what’s your issue with 20 from shingles, most of whom are immunocompromised and/or elderly?
            https://www.cdc.gov/shingles/s
            Again, citation for “boosters for life” needed.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 1:07 pm #

            I ordered the book which another book reported had said that 100 a year died of shingles in the UK. I’ll put up a citation from it as soon as I get the book. Mike may have access to it now.

          • FallsAngel
            January 8, 2017 at 1:14 pm #

            I don’t believe your books. Don’t bother.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 6:09 pm #

            I already ordered it. I remembered what book I had seen the 100 a year dying from shingles in the UK (it’s a UK book), and found the section where it said it, then looked at the footnote to see where the author had gotten it, and it said that book. I looked for the book on Amazon, found it cheap (in the UK), and ordered it. It will be interesting to me to see what it says on that and other topics. And it will be good to have the official source of the figure.

          • FallsAngel
            January 8, 2017 at 6:15 pm #

            Well, obviously it’s a lie. Mike already refuted it. And remember, the UK does not vaccinate against chickepox! Those people are supposedly getting all this “natural boosting” from being around people with chickenpox.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 6:24 pm #

            Mike refuted it without knowing the source or what years we’re talking about? Mike is gifted with omniscience and infallibility? Makes sense for benighted people with a god-shaped hole they seek to fill, even if they have to do so with charlatans.

          • FallsAngel
            January 8, 2017 at 6:27 pm #

            In case you missed it: http://disq.us/p/1f3bn8x

            You’re the charlatan BTW, cia.

          • Polak
            January 8, 2017 at 10:56 pm #

            I don’t post on RAW,was mistakenly banned.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:47 pm #

            Do keep up, Cia.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 6:58 pm #

            What book Cia?
            I suggest you read the reference I gave you instead. It cites info taken from official morbidity and mortality data.

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 7:02 pm #

            You didn’t give the number of deaths per year, just the rate per 100,000. So how many deaths per year?

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 7:09 pm #

            Here is the table from the paper, Cia.
            Case fatality ratio is in the last column.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/51d0e63fe5062ee6fa5c06c837609b7705a08c02c716dd0f39557a021561f5d1.jpg

          • ciaparker2
            January 9, 2017 at 5:20 pm #

            Don’t you know the number of fatalities? As in 100 a year? I don’t want the case fatality ratio at this time.

          • ciaparker2
            January 11, 2017 at 2:56 pm #

            So 20 deaths a year from chickenpox and 37 from shingles. And that’s without the varicella vaccine being recommended. So if it WERE recommended, you would see a steep increase in the number of people dying from shingles. I know you would like to just write off the current generations subject to getting shingles for the rest of their lives and enforce 100% varicella vaccine compliance. without worrying about the many who have severe reactions to the vaccine, even death, and the loss of the opportunity to get permanent immunity from the natural disease at an age when it is nearly always a trivial, mild, disease, but can be much more serious at a later age, and just figure out some schedule for mandatory boosters for life. One problem is that most people would not comply with varicella vaccine plus boosters for life: many would continue to get the mild, beneficial disease, but then be at increase risk of shingles, at that time much more likely to be fatal.

            No wonder the UK has not recommended the varicella vaccine for children. And no wonder that you were reluctant to put up this chart. I haven’t gotten the “Immunisation” book yet which said that the rate of shingles deaths in the UK was 100 a year, but got a notice that it had been sent.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 11, 2017 at 3:38 pm #

            “So 20 deaths a year from chickenpox and 37 from shingles. And that’s without the varicella vaccine being recommended. So if it WERE recommended, you would see a steep increase in the number of people dying from shingles.”
            You really know how to lie and twist the facts, don’t you, Cia?
            There is no evidence there would be a “steep rise” in shingles cases after introduction of varicella vaccination in infants.
            You previously used the term “skyrocket”, implying a very sharp rise, yet as I showed you, the overall numbers in the US of shingles continued to rise very slowly at the same rate, and age specific incidence ratios (which account for a rise in the overall numbers of old people) showed no increase.
            So based on the USA experience it would be very unlikely there would be a steep rise. Yet you are confident in speculating there will be, and cite your fevered imaginings as “fact”. Well, sorry, that is not fact, that is speculation.
            Did you even bother to read the article I cited?

            …No, obviously.
            It was a cost benefit analysis, and it calculated there would be an increase in zoster cases with infant vaccination, but never stated cases would rise dramatically or “skyrocket” as you claim.
            Please temper your hyperbole and restrain your urge to diss vaccinations at every turn.

            Do you realise that there are other options for mitigating the possible rise in zoster cases? There is zoster vaccination, which would reduce incidence by at least 50% (and the newer vaccine is 88% effective), and the vaccine seems extremely safe with few problems other than local reactions after 4 year follow up.
            Shingles also responds to antivirals – early recognition and treatment will lessen morbidity (and any mortality) considerably. (To borrow your own words regarding infections, any deaths will be due not to the infection but due to the incompetence of doctors not intervening quickly… right?).

            “And no wonder that you were reluctant to put up this chart. I haven’t gotten the “Immunisation” book yet which said that the rate of shingles deaths in the UK was 100 a year, but got a notice that it had been sent.”
            I wasn’t reluctant to put up this chart. I put it up specifically for you to see as soon as I sourced the paper. It clearly confirms zoster deaths average 37 per year in the UK, not 100.
            In other words it conclusively shows you are wrong, yet again.

          • ciaparker2
            January 11, 2017 at 4:30 pm #

            https://www.prlog.org/10394035-cdc-centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-or-centers-for-data-censorship-and-propaganda.html

            “Furthermore, important data from the VASP project that is entirely absent, include (1) shingles cases in the Antelope Valley population
            aged greater than 50 years demonstrated a statistically significant increase of 27.5% from 316 reported cases in 2006 to 403 cases in 2007 (giving a rate ratio of 1.275 with 95% C.I. of 1.1 – 1.5); and (2) additional data from the VASP
            project for the period from 2000 to 2002, years during which Goldman served as the Research Analyst for the VASP, indicate a statistically significant 56.1% increase in shingles among adults aged 20 years and over, with 237 cases of
            shingles reported in 2000 and 370 cases reported in 2002 (giving a rate ratio of 1.4 with 95% C.I. 1.2 – 1.7).

            Next, consider the fact that the current CDC study reports the shingles incidence rate among unvaccinated children who have had a history of natural or wild-type “varicella” disease is 239 cases per 100,000 person-years (95% C.I. 193-295). This rate assumes there was 100% enumeration of reported shingles cases (which rarely occurs in surveillance studies). After applying capture-recapture to the reported cases of shingles, the ascertainment-corrected rate is approximately double, or over 400 cases per 100,000—a shingles rate typically found among adults aged 40 years and older.

            This result has foreboding consequences for adults who also have had a previous history of natural “varicella” disease (usually when they were children).
            Their cell-mediated immunity is declining in the absence of exogenous (outside) exposures (boosts) to children with chickenpox, and this is
            demonstrated by the increases in reported HZ cases among adults from data collected from the same VASP project.

            The conclusion of the current CDC paper is overstated and misleading: “Varicella vaccine substantially decreases the risk of herpes zoster among vaccinated children and its widespread use will likely reduce overall herpes zoster burden
            in the United States.” While the paper’s conclusion does include the statement, “The increase in herpes zoster [shingles] incidence among 10- to
            19-year-olds could not be confidently explained and needs to be confirmed from other data sources”, additional data from the same VASP project during the same study also demonstrate large increases in HZ incidence rates among adults in all age groups except those over 70.”

            “Conclusion: The VASP/CDC’s selective and clearly
            misleading interpretation of the reported data should not dictate the
            conclusion, let alone attempt to guide the national policy for a vaccination
            program that currently requires a booster varicella vaccination and a shingles
            vaccine (that serves to boost older adults, some of which previously received
            natural boosting through exogenous exposures in the community). Mass
            vaccination of children provides at best 70 to 90% immunity that is temporary
            and of unknown duration and is shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult
            population where “chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times
            more risk of hospitalization compared to children.”

            So steep rise in shingles cases caused by the varicella vaccination, obviously including increase in deaths therefrom, in order to prevent a harmless, beneficial childhood disease. Hey, rather than try to vax everyone from cradle to grave, including boosters and shingles vaccine, WHY don’t we just go back to letting children get chickenpox? It was never a problem when I had it, never a problem in the ’70s or ’80s? So why not go back to a time when it WASN’T A PROBLEM? OK, sure, vaccine profits take a hit, but let’s be democratic and let ALL sectors in society cast our vote democratically? Vaccine damage from Varivax, boosters, and the shingles vaccine, lack of benefits from getting the natural disease, greatly increased rate of shingles, lifelong uncertainty as to vaccine effectiveness and duration, people getting often very severe cases of chickenpox outside the childhood years when the vaccine fails, OR NONE OF THE ABOVE?

            I got natural chickenpox at seven, and C got it at nearly two. No problem. I’ve had shingles twice, but, as I’m SURE you realize, I would NEVER take the shingles vaccine. Why have I been put in this danger? Neither my parents (who had both had chickenpox) nor anyone I ever knew or heard of had shingles before the vaccine. And now I’ve had it, twice, and I sometimes hear about people getting it. My Iranian friend got it five years ago, and it was extremely painful both while the lesions were present and then for an entire year from post-herpetic nerve pain. She was thinking about getting the shingles vaccine: I told her the dangers of it, obviously, but also told her that those who have a severe case are more likely to have another one, and I could not tell her either to take or to refuse the vaccine (I also told her how ineffective it was, and that it could cause congestive heart failure). I asked her a couple of weeks ago if she had gotten the vaccine, and she said no, she hadn’t. But why should she be put in this position?

            You weren’t reluctant to put up the chart? I asked you several times what the number of cases was, and you only replied with statistics as to rate, not brute numbers. How could you not be reluctant to put up figures showing how much more dangerous shingles was than chickenpox?

          • Mike Stevens
            January 11, 2017 at 4:58 pm #

            Sigh… An attempted takedown of an article on shingles which has to be published in the “non journal”, Medical Veritas?
            Was it sandwiched between the articles about how HIV doesn’t exist and how exposure to television turns people gay…?
            And citing “not a doctor” Goldman…?

            There is still no evidence for your claims shingles has “skyrocketed” following vaccination against VZV. As has been pointed out, there will be a slight increase, then after several decades, cases will vanish entirely, forever (as long as vaccination continues)

            Lifetime risk of shingles is already 1:3 in the USA.
            Of course, in your own tiny mind, because your 2 parents didn’t get it, that means it didn’t exist! And because you hadn’t heard of shingles when you grew up, that is proof yet again it didn’t exist!

            Of course I wasn’t reluctant to put up the chart, you fool.
            It proved you wrong, so I put it up as soon as I came across it.

            Again, I am astounded by your deceit and lack of insight and any notion of logic. You describe shingles which kills around 100 elderly people with multiple comorbidities in the USA each year as “dangerous”, but label diseases like measles “benign and beneficial”, when it killed 450-500 kids each year, and brain damaged thousands?

            Can you explain why you are so irrational?

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 11, 2017 at 5:25 pm #

            My personal rule is “be very skeptical of anything that has truth in the title.” Even if it is Latin

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 7:05 pm #

            This book. It’s in H. Bedford, D. Elliman, Childhood Immunisation: The Fact, Health Promotion, England, 2001. Do you have it? I ordered it, I’ll look at the section on shingles when it comes.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 5:21 am #

            You may be interested in the studies of the newer zoster vaccine.
            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1603800#t=articleDiscussion

            It was highly effective (88%).
            Here is a cute video from the NEJM on it.
            http://www.nejm.org/do/10.1056/NEJMdo005084/full/?requestType=popUp&relatedArticle=10.1056/NEJMoa1603800

            Over 4 years, only one death was thought to possibly be linked to trial vaccine intervention out of 14,000 participants:
            …a 90-year-old participant with preexisting thrombocytopenia had acute myeloid leukemia diagnosed 75 days after the first dose of HZ/su and died from neutropenic sepsis 97 days after vaccination, without having received the second dose.”
            Rather a tenuous link, but that shows you how seriously these people take vaccine safety trials. As per trial protocol, any “event” in thise elderly population over the 4 year trial period was recorded as an adverse event, such as a fall or a fracture as well as medical events. And of course, there were statistically no more events/side effects reported in the active vaccine group compared to placebo.
            Placebo was normal saline (0.9% NaCl solution).

            “No safety concerns associated with HZ/su were identified in the current trial. The overall incidences of potential immune-mediated diseases, serious adverse events, and deaths were similar in the vaccine and placebo groups. One death in the HZ/su group was considered by the local investigator to be related to the vaccination; however, serious adverse events considered by the investigators to be related to vaccination were similar in frequency between the two study groups. In addition, reported serious adverse events were consistent with general expectations for this older population.”

          • FallsAngel
            January 9, 2017 at 8:43 am #

            Thanks for that info. I’ve seen a little about this vaccine. This is great!

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 1:39 pm #

            You need to look at the
            Green Book, free online, or this article, Cia.

            You are wrong (again). Less than one in a thousand die, (0.0-0.06) but the rate is higher in the very frail older group.

            “Mortality data were extracted from the Office of National Statistics (2001–2005) database (ONS 2005). Mortality due to herpes zoster is low until the age of 85 (0–0.5 deaths per 100,000 per years), and then it increases to 4.3 per 100,000 per year (average 2001–2005) ( Table 1 ). This corresponds to a case fatality rate of 0.36% in the oldest age group.”

            Estimating the cost-effectiveness of vaccination against herpes zoster in England and Wales

            A.J. van Hoek, N. Gay, A. Melegaro, W. Opstelten and W.J. Edmunds
            Vaccine, 2009-02-25, Volume 27, Issue 9, Pages 1454-1467, Copyright © 2009 Elsevier Ltd

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 4:11 am #

            “Goldman’s research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.”

            Then please explain why shingles was so common, despite the very high prevalence of chickenpox prevaccine and constant “natural boosting”.

            “Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases”

            It is accepted that there may be more shingles in the coming decades. But after the current cohort of chickenpox vaccinees have grown old, there will be hardly ANY cases of shingles since the older people will never have had chickenpox.

            Finally, why is not-a-doctor Goldman having to publish a medical paper about vaccination in a toxicology journal?

          • ciaparker2
            January 8, 2017 at 1:12 pm #

            I don’t think it would be justified, but everyone must make his own decision. The herpes zoster vaccine has caused congestive heart failure and many other serious adverse reactions, including death, as well as not being very effective: only 50% effective in those in their sixties, and close to 0% effective in those over 80. While most people don’t die of shingles at any age, though some do.

            Those who were not near children with chickenpox would have been at higher risk of shingles. Did your father ever get it? Has your mother ever gotten it? My parents never got shingles. I’ve had it twice, but would NEVER take the shingles vaccine.

            I think it would be better to let chickenpox (and measles and mumps) come back, and just go back to the way things were before 1995 in the US, before the vaccine. Trying to market the vaccine, the pharma pushers said that kids missing an average of one day of school and a parent having to miss work to stay home with him was the biggest reason to get the vaccine. At that time everyone knew what a trivial disease it was for the vast, vast majority.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 1:17 pm #

            Once again, you fail to provide any coherent response to what are highly relevant questions which were raised by your last effort at posting.

            Cia, how about you address the issues before going on some waffle expedition again?

          • corblimeybot
            January 8, 2017 at 1:36 pm #

            I come back to check on this blog after a hiatus, and the first thing I see is Ciaparker2, Lying Tool Supreme dropping straight nonsense in the comments. Sigh.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 8, 2017 at 3:53 pm #

            Welcome back.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 4:58 am #

            Yeah, some things never change.
            Every single comment Cia posts contains errors, and often deliberate outright lies (as she constantly repeats errors I have spent considerable time and effort correcting her on before).
            Welcome back to Cia Whack-a-mole county.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 4:56 am #

            What a goldmine of misdirection and misinformation you are Cia.

            “The herpes zoster vaccine has caused congestive heart failure and many other serious adverse reactions, including death”

            The Zoster vaccine is only extremely rarely linked to serious side effects, and heart failure is so vanishingly rare that I cannot find a verified report of it anywhere. There is no verified death following the vaccine that has been reported either. You are just making up garbage, as usual.

            In fact, suffering shingles is an independent risk factor for having strokes and cardiovascular events like a myocardial infarction.
            So vaccination against shingles may reduce the incidence of these events – another side benefit from vaccination!
            https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/04/shingles-vaccine-may-protect-you-2-ways/

          • Dr Kitty
            January 9, 2017 at 6:37 am #

            Given that the Zoster vaccine is given to people in their 70s, many of whom have histories of ischaemic heart disease and who are at high risk of developing CCF, it would be interesting to see the study which proved conclusively that the Zoster vaccine CAUSED CCF, rather than being a preceding correlating event.

            Cia, would you like to post it?
            You made the claim, I’d like to see your evidence.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 7:17 am #

            I think Cia is referring to the product insert for Zostavax, which she has “quote-mined”.

            “Fifty-one individuals (1.5%) receiving ZOSTAVAX were reported to have congestive heart failure (CHF) or pulmonary edema compared to 39 individuals (1.2%) receiving placebo in the AE Monitoring Substudy; 58 individuals (0.3%) receiving ZOSTAVAX were reported to have congestive heart failure (CHF) or pulmonary edema compared to 45 (0.2%) individuals receiving placebo in the overall study.”

            What she doesn’t mention is
            1. The differences were not significant, and
            2. The events are not “causal” but are, according to trial protocol, merely events recorded in the post vaccination period without any judgement being made on causality.

            Cia is intelligent enough to know/realise this; but she is deceitfully reposting this information to implicate the vaccine in causing death and serious harm. She knows that those tactics (i.e. to lie) work well down at Age of Autism and the other antivaccine internet cesspits she frequents, but they don’t work anywhere where the factual cold light of day can shine upon them.

          • Roadstergal
            January 11, 2017 at 5:18 pm #

            This is the standard anti-vaxxers hold. Unless a vaccine actively PREVENTS anything negative that might happen to someone in a given age group, no matter how unrelated, it’s not good enough.

          • Azuran
            January 7, 2017 at 6:48 pm #

            Oh, again with how if it didn’t happen in your family, it just doesn’t happen.
            I told you, my great uncle had shingles, yet he was exposed multiple times to CP through his life when his own kids and grandkids got it. How do you explain that?

            You might want to do at least a minimum of research. The number of Shingles death in the US is around 100 per year. And the possibility of a link with vaccination has been studied and found unlikely, because
            -the rate of shingles started to raise before the vaccine was introduced
            -The increase rate didn’t sped up when vaccination was started
            -Countries that don’t vaccinate for CP also have an increasing rate of shingles
            And although shingles is rare in children, children who are vaccinated against CP are less likely to get it than those who got CP

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 4:19 am #

            Cia had shingles herself, she told us.
            Despite her claims that her chickenpox resulted in permanent immunity, the virus was latent in her nervous system, and reactivated.
            She then deliberately infected her daughter with material from the pustules.

          • Empliau
            January 8, 2017 at 2:08 pm #

            CP needs to learn that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. None of her grandparents got it – great, but that doesn’t make it rare. In my family I have a 66% incidence in grandmothers. Honestly, is there a logical fallacy CP doesn’t not only embrace but also cleave to in the face of evidence, anecdote, and just plain logic?

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 4:22 am #

            “Shingles was rare before the vaccine.”

            Please define “rare”.
            Is something that affects 10% of the population defined as rare in your book?

            If so, autism is extremely rare, even by your 1:50 estimation.

          • Erin
            January 8, 2017 at 7:40 am #

            The chicken pox vaccine is not on the UK vaccination schedule so if you are correct in stating that a 100 people a year die of shingles in the UK, all those people likely had chickenpox at some point previously and were most definitely exposed to it.

            My Mother had shingles a few years ago, she had chickenpox as a child as did her siblings. I also had it as a child so she was exposed to me whilst I was ill.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 8, 2017 at 3:54 pm #

            Lifetime risk of shingles (before chickenpox vaccine was introduced) is 25%, Cia.
            That is 1:4

            Please tell us again how 1:4 is “rare”, yet 1 in a million is “common”?*

            *the risk of a serious/life threatening reaction to vaccines.

          • Polak
            January 6, 2017 at 8:56 pm #

            I can attest to that,Had shingles for six weeks and the pain was unbelievable.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 6, 2017 at 6:32 pm #

            False dichotomy, moosey, and you know it.

          • Who?
            January 6, 2017 at 6:58 pm #

            I wonder what the trade-off would be?

            Say you could choose-either get an acute illness with a known death rate, or have a chronic lifelong illness with known symptoms and a known trajectory?

            I wonder at what point on the death-rate scale sabel would choose the chronic illness instead?

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 4:47 pm #

            Shingles? Yes, that’s what you get from having chickenpox disease. You’re much less likely to get it if you’ve been vaccinated. Good point, sabel!

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 6:35 pm #

            But the current shingles epidemic is BECAUSE of all the vaccinated children. Adults are no longer getting the natural boosters they need to prevent cases of shingles from appearing. Thank you, varicella vaccine, for killing so many adults now with shingles! It’s one of the main reasons the UK hasn’t recommended the vaccine.

          • Empliau
            January 7, 2017 at 8:19 pm #

            I’m an introvert who’s verging on recluse, and even in my limited circle of acquaintances, I can again show you contrary evidence. My husband’s grandmother and my grandmother both had shingles in the late 1980s, before the varicella vaccination was available. Painful as all goddamned getout. No natural booster protected them. Everything you say is demonstrably wrong …

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 11:05 pm #

            No one has said that it didn’t exist before 1995. It was much less FREQUENT before the vaccine.

          • Empliau
            January 8, 2017 at 1:41 am #

            Two out of three grandmothers (one of mine died quite young). Doesn’t sound infrequent to me.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 6:33 am #

            Ah yes, but if chickenpox vaccination had been around, then 13 of your grandmothers would have got it.

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 9:14 pm #

            That is untrue. Rates are rising in countries that don’t vaccinate against cpx.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 6:19 am #

            Rates have been rising gradually in the US, or have even been stable, according to some sources. Hardly the “epidemic” Cia imagines there is.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/abf7b9c66f1ab5e49a8221290749700eb4cdf8eb96b741f5eac0ca4500d8c3bb.jpg

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 6:06 am #

            Again, you trot out the lies and disinformation Cia.

            “But the current shingles epidemic is BECAUSE of all the vaccinated
            children.”

            No-one is calling the gradual rise in cases as an “epidemic”. That term exists only in your own imagination. Cases were rising prior to the CP vaccine introduction, and are continuing to rise at the same gradual rate, as evidenced by the references below.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/191/12/1999.long
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897984

            Shingles is rising because we have an aging population. It is rising in countries which do not vaccinate against chickenpox, like the UK.

            “Adults are no longer getting the natural boosters they need to
            prevent cases of shingles from appearing.”

            That is a partial truth. Yes, there is less natural boosting, but it is wrong to claim as you and your crony Sabelmouse do that shingles was rare in the prevaccine days because natural boosting kept it at bay. Shingles has always been common, and in the US one in 3 people will get it in their lifetime. (Even you got it, twice!). This demonstrates that natural boosting is of rather limited value.
            It is more logical to get artificial boosting through a vaccine, than to expect one’s grandchildren run the risks of having chickenpox just to serve grandparents up with a “natural” vaccination. I hope you never become a grandparent, if you are such a selfish and heartless person.

            “Thank you, varicella vaccine, for killing so many adults now with shingles!”
            Your statement is odd. Are you saying shingles kills many people? If so, then surely you would want to eradicate chickenpox virus from everyone, so no-one can ever suffer it again? Oh no, you don’t… you want one in 3 of us to carry on getting this supposedy lethal problem for all eternity? How illogical can you be?
            A temporary rise in shingles numbers will be followed a few decades later by a reduction in cases to nearly zero, if every child gets vaccinated. That is a worthy goal.

            “It’s one of the main reasons the UK hasn’t recommended the vaccine.”
            Amazing how you cherry-pick your justifications wherever you find them, huh Cia? The JCVI in the UK recommend a lot of things about vaccination, and you disagree with virtually every single one. But then they put a hold on chickenpox vaccine until more evidence that the cost benefits of vaccination are clear, and you suddenly start singing and dancing, shouting “See! They don’t do it in the UK, so they must be right!”.
            Surely anyone with a few brain cells can see how perverse this claim of yours must be.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 9, 2017 at 6:28 am #

            Show us on this chart where the epidemic of shingles started after the chickenpox vaccine was introduced, would you Cia?
            Maybe there is something wrong with my vision today, but I just am not seeing it…

        • ciaparker2
          January 6, 2017 at 9:55 pm #

          We had whooping cough and chickenpox. Not that bad. We have also experienced severe vaccine injury (MS and autism, my father paralysis). I can ASSURE you that vaccines can and do kill or disable people. You are quite right. We do deserve moral approbation, and I don’t mind public shaming by shameless reprobates like you and your cronies here.

          • Roadstergal
            January 6, 2017 at 10:31 pm #

            Oh, well, if you _assure_ us, how can we possibly doubt? 😀

          • Azuran
            January 6, 2017 at 10:35 pm #

            I had all the vaccines, Not that bad.
            I even got an additional 3 doses of rabies vaccine and nothing happened.

            And again, nobody here is claiming vaccines don’t have side effect. However, you are deluded about what is and isn’t a side effect and how common they are.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 7, 2017 at 4:36 pm #

            Your assurance is worthless.

          • shay simmons
            January 7, 2017 at 7:00 pm #

            I can ASSURE you that vaccines can and do kill or disable people.

            Assurance is not proof.

          • ciaparker2
            January 7, 2017 at 7:02 pm #

            I just suggested a list of about five basic books with truckloads of proof as to vaccine damage and autism. But again, you want the vaccines, please, go ahead and get them. All of them.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 7, 2017 at 7:22 pm #

            Book. Have. No. Accuracy. Oversight.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 8, 2017 at 7:20 am #

            What you haven’t heard that Sacoridia’s Green Riders have been using magic to overcome the 2nd Empire would-be revolutionaries? True story

          • shay simmons
            January 7, 2017 at 7:24 pm #

            Would those be the studies by Gary Goldman, a computer scientist (not an MD, immunologist or epidemiologist)? The Gary Goldman who can’t get his work published in any journal with an impact factor higher than 1.7?

            This Gary Goldman?

            http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2014/03/950-neil-z-miller-gary-s-goldman.html

          • FallsAngel
            January 7, 2017 at 8:35 pm #

            Especially coming from her!

          • Daleth
            January 12, 2017 at 9:27 am #

            Assurance is not proof.

            Wait, even if it’s in all-caps? 😉

          • shay simmons
            January 12, 2017 at 10:49 am #

            And from such an unimpeachable source.

          • moto_librarian
            January 9, 2017 at 9:35 am #

            The only potentially plausible vaccine reaction is paralysis, but Guillan Barre is typically of limited duration. In the absence of proof, I simply don’t believe you. MS and autism are not caused by vaccines. Period.

          • ciaparker2
            January 11, 2017 at 4:32 pm #

            nwmt

          • Nick Sanders
            January 11, 2017 at 4:55 pm #

            And yet, you’re still here, day after day.

          • Simone Reilly
            January 13, 2017 at 2:04 am #

            Piece of shit male

          • Mike Stevens
            January 12, 2017 at 3:44 am #

            Cia will now say “nwmt”, code for “I can’t answer you”.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 14, 2017 at 11:01 pm #

            Looks like you called it.

          • Zogby
            January 9, 2017 at 11:07 pm #

            https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52946030.jpg

          • ciaparker2
            January 11, 2017 at 4:31 pm #

            Hey, Z, glad to see they didn’t confiscate your photo memes when they let you go! They’re so cute!

          • Zogby
            January 9, 2017 at 11:09 pm #

            https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52946030.jpg
            ..

          • JGC
            January 10, 2017 at 1:41 pm #

            cia, how exactly did you factually established that the injuries you believe were caused by vaccines actually were caused by vaccines? Describe the method.

            The conclusion is founded in something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, I trust.

    • Gæst
      January 6, 2017 at 10:37 am #

      Seriously. I mean, sure, in the “can I go to the public playground” sense, a child between such illnesses is healthy. But a child who has caught all of those illnesses is not a particularly healthy child. My vaccinated kids have had none of those, after all – nor have they “contracted” (ha ha ha!) autism.

  5. Sue
    January 3, 2017 at 12:48 am #

    Is Dr. Amy Tuteur still licensed as a physician. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine reports that her license expired in 2003.. correct me if I am wrong……..

    • Who?
      January 3, 2017 at 12:51 am #

      Read the box in the top tight hand corner of this homepage.

    • Empress of the Iguana People
      January 3, 2017 at 4:12 pm #

      Someone should tell my husband’s doc that he can no longer share his opinion after he retires in February. Only *current* people count. Except you don’t believe David Gorski or Steve Novella, either.

    • attitude devant
      January 3, 2017 at 7:00 pm #

      Sue, please pick another name! We have a wonderful Aussie FP who comments here (very pro-vax) and Sue is HER name. Her valuable opinions should not be confused with your nattering

      • ciaparker2
        January 3, 2017 at 7:06 pm #

        Good point. I saw the other Sue’s comments and was taken aback. I thought at first that the Sue I knew would never say such vile things. Then realized that it was another Sue.

        • Mike Stevens
          January 3, 2017 at 7:35 pm #

          Yes, “this” Sue does say some pretty vile things, I agree.

          • ciaparker2
            January 3, 2017 at 8:52 pm #

            Yes, that Sue does, doesn’t she?

          • Mike Stevens
            January 4, 2017 at 2:40 am #

            Tell us Cia, do you think this Sue knows “more than 99.99% of doctors” like you claim to do?
            Perhaps your similarities run deeper than just being able to post a Gish gallop of utter scientific garbage, and you both are pretentious, insufferable egotists with an overdose of Dunning Kruger syndrome too?
            Maybe you are starting to channel Rene?

  6. Amy Tuteur, MD
    January 2, 2017 at 8:35 pm #

    I’m proud to see my website becoming a black hole for anti-vaxxers. They seem inexorably pulled here to waste hours arguing with regular readers who think they are morons. Every minute an anti-vaxxer spends here is a minute that he or she is not babbling nonsense to vulnerable parents who might not understand just how ignorant anti-vaxxers are. Awesome!! Keep up the good work everyone!

    • Sue
      January 3, 2017 at 12:26 am #

      Oh don’t you believe it Miss MD,, wishful thinking though.. Lol

      • Polak
        January 3, 2017 at 12:29 am #

        Getting desperate now stooping to the moderator for someone to talk to as everybody else is giving you the flick.

        • Sue
          January 3, 2017 at 12:34 am #

          Oh poly poly give me the flick..it seem the moderator wanted to join her bunch of dumb and dumber followers.. how sweet.. but yes hope you are right and all are all giving me the flick.. but I bet they won’t

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 12:36 am #

            You can’t bear to leave, as you said yesterday…

          • Sue
            January 3, 2017 at 12:46 am #

            Try me.. But does AMY TUTEUR, MD want anyone to leave as she is more interested in keeping people here.. did you not read her post..
            I found a little song about her..
            There was an ex-OB called Amy
            Whose hobby is midwife DeFamy
            She never has facts
            Her thinking is lax
            Like Wax and like Pang, she’s to Blamy

          • Polak
            January 3, 2017 at 12:52 am #

            Actually we love you here,you provide us with great comical comedy.Seriously have you ever considered doing stand up comedy?Judging by your performance here,you would be a hit,you know with that funny thing that you have with the English language and all.

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 12:54 am #

            I think the language thing may be substance induced. Either that or the early shift of Sue is a better speller and grammarian.

            I agree she’s hilarious.

          • sdsures
            January 14, 2017 at 10:23 am #

            Her poetry is worthy of the Vogons.

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 3, 2017 at 4:16 pm #

            well, that particular “paragraph” is not standard English.

        • FallsAngel
          January 3, 2017 at 9:52 am #

          I like your new name, Polak!

          • Polak
            January 3, 2017 at 3:06 pm #

            thanks,did it to upset Ron and Sue

      • MaineJen
        January 3, 2017 at 11:45 am #

        No one here is impressed by you.

        • Sue
          January 3, 2017 at 1:03 pm #

          Oh really I am very sad about that.. that will keep me up at night.. But I guess sharing toxic info and supporting vaccine damaged children is something to celebrate.. OMG are you for real MaineJen.. or should I call Jen the unwise…

          • MaineJen
            January 3, 2017 at 1:24 pm #

            Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

          • Sue
            January 3, 2017 at 1:31 pm #

            Oh Jen the unwise.. well you are posting to me what does that say about you Jen.. It is funny how the insults keep coming but none of you are willing to ignore me,, you know the old saying stick and stones.. But vaccines do hurt me…..

          • MaineJen
            January 3, 2017 at 3:18 pm #

            You’re trying to trick me into giving something away. It won’t work… XD

          • Empress of the Iguana People
            January 3, 2017 at 4:15 pm #

            Bless you, dear. It only hurts for a minute. Unlike having pertussis, which hurts for weeks and weeks.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 3, 2017 at 1:39 pm #

            What is it with you and nicknames? You sound like you’re in freaking elementary school.

          • Al Mather
            January 3, 2017 at 2:31 pm #

            Close…it’s drunk Australian.

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 5:35 pm #

            The publican is checking the kangaroo’s ID before providing service at the bar. We know it isn’t yhe kangaroo’s driver’s license because he can’t look the publican in the eye.

            That’s it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            January 4, 2017 at 2:09 pm #

            Isn’t the fact that it isn’t the kangaroo’s picture on it a little more obvious?

          • Who?
            January 5, 2017 at 9:05 am #

            You have to roll with it.

            Just spent a few days visiting our son who lives in an accessible bit of the Outback, there were wild kangaroos where we were running his dog, a few minutes walk from his house. Amazing to see them.

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 5:05 pm #

            Yes she has some Aussie tics, and the more she bends the elbow, the more her spelling and grammar deteriorates.

          • maidmarian555
            January 3, 2017 at 5:16 pm #

            Last night she claimed to be neither Australian (after repeatedly calling me a Pom and telling me to go watch some Coronation Street) nor drunk (despite the fact her posts were becoming increasing difficult to decifer). I am not convinced she was telling the truth on either count……

          • Who?
            January 3, 2017 at 5:30 pm #

            Given her reputation for veracity, we can draw our own conclusion on both.

          • maidmarian555
            January 3, 2017 at 5:35 pm #

            In fairness I am pretty impressed that she has managed to out-batshit some of the other posters that have been appearing here in the last couple of weeks. Every time I think the bar has been lowered as far as it can possibly go, someone new comes along to prove me wrong.

          • shay simmons
            January 3, 2017 at 6:56 pm #

            I must respectfully disagree. No one could possibly out-batshit parker.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 3, 2017 at 7:06 pm #

            It’s pretty close…

            She’s not that ex-florist from near Perth, Australia, who pretends she is an immunologist, is she? What was her name again?

          • FallsAngel
            January 3, 2017 at 7:09 pm #

            Angela Something.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 3, 2017 at 7:37 pm #

            Angela Coral Eisenhauer, that’s it!

          • kfunk937
            January 4, 2017 at 5:05 pm #

            Ang has recently returned to disqus, btw. She’s accumulated some *interesting* new hypotheses WAGs on how MTHFR mutations definitely and without a doubt affected her, her mental health and pregnancies. At some point since last we saw her, she also discovered Lymie woo, where she’s become mired in what I’d label the saddest corners of the interwebz. Oh, and she now endorses Morgellon’s too.

            Classic crank magnetism compounded with Dunning-Kruger on an escalation. And possibly a manic tear.

            Unfortunately, none of this has restricted or derailed her enthusiastic and prolific hatred of DTaP and its presumed (by her) association with microcephaly. She is currently “educating” the commentariate at this Zika linked to birth defects article at sciencemag, where she has once again left the majority of the comments.

            Any readers here who’re unfamiliar with ang and/or interested in refuting her claims are invited to have a look. After reading 100s of her comments, I think that she represents a sad, but oddly fascinating case. Often I lack the oomph to respond to her myself and rather than directly engaging, may comment about her comments instead. Chicken? Mebbe. But also hesitate to poke a stick at something best handled with care.

          • MaineJen
            January 5, 2017 at 12:11 pm #

            Oh, my…Morgellon’s. Yeah, I’m not gonna touch that one…

          • shay simmons
            January 5, 2017 at 9:57 pm #

            Ang has recently returned to disqus,

            If you mention it, it will come.

          • shay simmons
            January 3, 2017 at 7:18 pm #

            Angela Something Something. But I don’t think it’s her, she hasn’t asked us the time in Mumbai yet.

          • Zogby
            January 4, 2017 at 1:15 am #

            FYI, that’s Sue Rope
            https://www.facebook.com/sue.ropenehennessy

            She’s a frequent commenter at Vactruth

          • Box of Salt
            January 4, 2017 at 1:46 am #

            Zogby “She’s a frequent commenter at Vactruth”

            Is she more coherent over there, or is her foray onto this site special?

          • maidmarian555
            January 4, 2017 at 7:44 am #

            Ah, NZ. That makes sense (unlike 90% of her posts).

        • ciaparker2
          January 3, 2017 at 8:54 pm #

          I am.

          • moto_librarian
            January 4, 2017 at 10:03 am #

            Of course you are.

          • Azuran
            January 4, 2017 at 10:41 am #

            Wow, doesn’t take much to impress you.

          • shay simmons
            January 4, 2017 at 2:36 pm #

            You’re impressed by the incoherent ramblings of someone who has yet to offer a single fact to back up her gibberish.

            Why?

      • moto_librarian
        January 3, 2017 at 2:33 pm #

        I don’t know, Miss Sue, do you have any actual accomplishments in life beyond breastfeeding and childbirth? It’s so adorable when some amateur immunologist starts referring to a grown as woman with a medical degree as “Miss MD,” but I guess that’s all that you’ve got in your arsenal since you never bothered to do anything with your own life.

    • Mike Stevens
      January 3, 2017 at 11:15 am #

      Always ready to oblige when I can, Amy.

    • Leslie
      January 12, 2017 at 6:27 am #

      Do you realize how condescension toward patients by medical professionals is feeding the rising distrust in the Medical Establishment? The rampant God complex in traditional medicine is why so many people are moving to Alternative Health providers. I have spoken to so many retired doctors who are saddened by how the profession is turning into an “us vs them” mentality toward patients.

      • Who?
        January 12, 2017 at 7:27 am #

        ‘People hate that doctors know more than them, and would therefore prefer to be advised by someone as ignorant as themselves.’

        Fixed it for you.

  7. FallsAngel
    December 31, 2016 at 11:55 pm #

    Happy New Year, everyone!

  8. Amy Tuteur, MD
    December 31, 2016 at 12:56 pm #

    What’s the difference between natural immunity and vaccine induced immunity?
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6639094b51c7dca05219820f88f74a1565184adc0d8ade45f55f254d330f9512.jpg

    • ciaparker2
      December 31, 2016 at 5:45 pm #

      I’ll bet you haven’t read Dr. Suzanne Humphries’ Dissolving Illusions either. If you were to read it, you’d discover that death from contagious disease killed many thousands of children in the nineteenth century with the rise of industrialism, crowded dirty factory towns with malnourished, overworked laborers who succumbed easily to contagious disease. Smallpox, pertussis, measles, diphtheria, and scarlet fever were huge killers then. Smallpox suddenly evolved to become much less virulent after the US outbreak in 1897, and within a few years became much less common and much less dangerous, killing few and often being mistaken for chickenpox. The vaccine for it was always filthy and dangerous, and killed or disabled millions, huge numbers of vaxxed people dying of smallpox (or vaccine reactions). Dr. Humphries discusses how all the former killers became much less virulent and in most cases also much less prevalent before the vaccines for them were developed. Pertussis evolved to become much less virulent almost a hundred years ago, before the vaccines were marketed. Diphtheria became less common and less virulent as well, though the vaccine may have played a significant role in reducing deaths from it. Measles evolved to become much less virulent, until by the ’50s it had become a mild, routine childhood disease with a very low mortality rate. Before the vaccine. Scarlet fever never had a vaccine routinely given for it, as those they tried killed so many. The disease itself evolved to become much less common and much less virulent, until now scarlet fever is very rarely seen. Strep throat is common. Were scarlet fever to come back it could be treated by antibiotics the way strep throat is, no need for a vaccine.

      Trying to push people into getting vaccines by the use of shallow memes is unsatisfactory, and brushes off the huge percentage of children (and adults) being severely injured, even killed, by vaccines. Every parent must research the issues very carefully, each disease, each vaccine, and consider how common each VPD is in his area, how serious is might be, and both the most common form it takes and the most severe. Then research the adverse reactions most often reported for each vaccine, and carefully make an appraisal of which diseases might be an actual threat to their child, and if there are better ways than vaccines to protect him. There are homeopathic nosodes available for every VPD, and they are safe and effective. If the answer is no, then consider the vaccine. I’d say to consider the DT after the age of two, and consider the Hib and Prevnar vaccines only if the child won’t be breastfed for at least a year, will be in daycare, and only after the age of four months. Bearing in mind that the vaccines have caused a lot of severe reactions, even death, but meningitis has too. Not necessary to worry about it in children over two years old.

      • FallsAngel
        December 31, 2016 at 10:30 pm #

        A couple of points from this Gish-gallop:

        There is no evidence that these diseases are getting milder. Humphries is insane, and has NO published research to support this nuttery.

        Scarlet Fever has not become less virulent; it occurs as a complication of strep throat. If the strep is properly treated with antibiotics, SF usually does not develop. You don’t seem to “get it” with SF, but what else is new?

        These nosodes are disgusting and unsafe. Good Grief, cia! You’re worried about the purity of vaccines. Nosodes start out as evil concoctions of all sorts of bacteria and viruses, then are watered down to nothing, but the garbage in them may not be killed.

        YOU HAVE NO MEDICAL EDUCATION OR TRAINING, AND WON’T SAY WHEN YOU LAST TOOK A SCIENCE COURSE. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS RECOMMENDING ANYTHING RE: VACCINES.

        • Mike Stevens
          January 1, 2017 at 6:44 am #

          Ahhh, but as she has often said, she “knows more than 99.9% of doctors” with their medical and postgraduate degrees, so she must be a cheenius!

          • FallsAngel
            January 1, 2017 at 9:28 am #

            Well, yeah!

          • ciaparker2
            January 1, 2017 at 9:59 pm #

            I put up a passage which said that most children have achieved immunity to the bacteria which cause scarlet fever by the age of ten.

        • ciaparker2
          January 1, 2017 at 8:05 pm #

          Not true. It is independent of strep throat, though the viruses are related. I put up quotes by doctors the other day who testified that pertussis and measles had evolved to become a lot milder than they had been. Of course they have gotten milder. And from the lot who always says that the dose makes the poison, and 50,000 ppb of mercury is inconsequential (when it is a lethal dose), how can you say on the one hand that the nosode is diluted down to nothing (but the energy remains) and then that it could be poisonous?

          • FallsAngel
            January 1, 2017 at 8:14 pm #

            cia, you are really full of it and I think you know that “it” is preceded by “sh”. Scarlet Fever is a complication of strep throat, and neither are caused by a virus, they are caused by the Group A beta hemolytic strep bacteria.

            “Scarlet fever is caused by an infection with group A streptococcus
            bacteria (usually strep throat). The bacteria make a toxin (poison)
            that can cause the scarlet-colored rash that gives this illness its
            name.

            Not all streptococci bacteria make this toxin and not all kids are
            sensitive to it. Two kids in the same family may both have strep
            infections, but one child (who is sensitive to the toxin) may develop
            the rash of scarlet fever while the other doesn’t.

            Usually, if a child has this scarlet rash and other symptoms of strep throat, it can be treated with antibiotics. So if your child has these symptoms, it’s important to call your doctor.” http://kidshealth.org/en/parents/scarlet-fever.html

            Lukers: Please, please PLEASE do not listen to this ignoramous.

            No “energy” remains in these stupid nosodes, but the bacteria or viruses may remain in the solution.

          • ciaparker2
            January 1, 2017 at 10:02 pm #

            Yes, it can be treated with antibiotics, but I put up several passages by physicians which say that if you start the antibiotics too soon, then the patient won’t develop the antibodies which will provide permanent immunity. If you go totally bats if your child has an infection and you just can’t wait even two days to start the antibiotic, well, then you have a child like the new vulgar commenter who says her son has had scarlet fever nine times in the last year. Wow, talk about not learning from your mistakes.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 1, 2017 at 8:21 pm #

            “Virus”.
            …lol.

            This people is the person who claims to “know more than 99.9% of doctors”, and she doesn’t even know that Streptococcus is a bacterial infection, and not a virus.

          • ciaparker2
            January 1, 2017 at 8:56 pm #

            Sorry, slip of the tongue. I did, however, say that strep patients should wait for two days before starting the antibiotic, which would obviously only be effective because it is a bacterial infection.

          • momofone
            January 1, 2017 at 9:09 pm #

            Bull. Shit.

          • Mike Stevens
            January 1, 2017 at 8:25 pm #

            If you think vaccines contain a lethal dose of mercury, where did all the dead kids go?
            95% or more have had vaccines.
            Are the only ones alive and with autism the unvaccinated ones?

          • ciaparker2
            January 1, 2017 at 8:57 pm #

            When I say lethal I