Dead babies? Hilarious!

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Australian midwife Lisa Barrett is standing astride a pile of tiny dead bodies and … laughing. Apparently dead babies are hilarious.

Barrett has presided over the death of at least six babies, the five I wrote about earlier this week and a sixth that remains unnamed. You might have thought that would have sobered her. You’d be wrong. She was recently arrested for manslaughter in the deaths of two babies under her care. You might have thought that would finally sober her. Wrong again.

Even among a group of women notorious for their callousness and narcissism, Lisa Barrett stands apart.

As a condition of her bail, Barrett was required to take down her website Homebirth: A Midwife Mutiny. Instead she redirected it to the photo above. It’s a picture of comedians Laurel and Hardy. Barrett title the phot “silenced” and, in case that was too subtle for you, named the page “Lisa Be Quiet!”

Well she certainly showed us, didn’t she? The rest of us may be horrified and grieved by the preventable death of six babies, but Barrett thinks the dead babies are a joke. The only thing she’s worried about is her “right” to let babies die.

Barrett herself appears to be widely despised within the midwifery community, not because of the dead babies, but because of her personality. Nonetheless, she does have some defenders.

Consider this overwrought verbiage from American “traditional birth attendant” midwife Maryn Green in The Time Has Come For Women To Stand Up And Speak:

This blog post is in support and solidarity of Lisa Barrett; a mentor and friend who is being persecuted in Australia for supporting women in birth. Lisa is/was one of the most genuine, humble and brilliant women I have ever met. I want her to know, from across the world, that she is supported and loved. Midwifery is the worse for her not in it, and the price we will pay for her persecution is huge.

Who cares about dead babies? Certainly not Maryn. In a 1200 word piece Green doesn’t mention even one of the dead babies even once. Why would she? She cares only about herself and her sister midwives.

We see our sister midwives being hunted, being chased, searched, thrown in jail, their phones being tapped. It’s enough to scare most people from even considering midwifery as a hobby, much less a full time passion. We see “her,” Lisa Barrett, persecuted and we shrink back in fear.

How could homebirth midwives be so callous? All too many of them bear a striking resemblance to sociopaths.

WikiHow has an illustrated guide to spotting a sociopath. It’s a bit tongue in cheek, but the basic characteristics are all there.

1. Someone is dead or severely injured and the homebirth midwife has no remorse.

Look for a lack of shame. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse… If the person is a true sociopath, then he or she will feel no remorse about hurting others …

Most obstetricians, midwives and obstetric nurses are devastated by an obstetric death. There is tremendous grief, anxiety and soul searching. Could we have saved that baby or mother if we had done something different? Did we make a mistake? Providers may give up obstetrics in the wake of a death. If they feel they are responsible, some will go so far as to commit suicide.

Many homebirth midwives respond in the exact opposite way. They can give a long exposition about their legal woes without once mentioning the fact that a baby is dead, let alone mentioning the name of the baby or the circumstances of the death.

There is no soul-searching, no root-cause analysis. The death is dismissed with a callous, “Some babies are meant to die.” or “Babies die in the hospital, too.”

I’ve never seen a clearer expression of homebirth midwives’ bone chilling lack of concern for dead babies than this quote from Geradine Simkins, former President of the Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA), the organization that represents homebirth midwives, in From Calling to Courtroom; A Survival Guide for Midwives:

You know, babies die; it’s part of life. And only those entrenched in the bio-technical model think that that it doesn’t, or shouldn’t happen. I have traveled extensively in other countries, mostly developing nations, and people understand this reality elsewhere. I once arrived at the house of a midwife in another country the morning a baby had died in a homebirth. I found that the family had embraced the midwife and was so grateful to her—because the mother did not die. They were understandably sad about the baby, but families expect that a baby might die. A mother dying is considered beyond tragic. It’s a matter of perspective.

2. The homebirth midwife refuses to accept any blame and lashes out at any attempt to hold her responsible.

When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead.

Or worse, she is likely to cry “persecution,” setting up Facebook pages and fundraising campaigns to solicit support and money.

Want to get money from other homebirth advocates? Just let a baby die!

A homebirth midwife who is alleged to have presided over the death of a very premature baby after insisting that homebirth would be fine, interfered with an ambulance crew trying to rescue a hemorrhaging mother, lied on medical records, and MAY HAVE MULTIPLE DEAD BABIES BURIED ON HER PROPERTY, is the beneficiary of a fundraising campaign.

An unlicensed homebirth midwife who was arrested for presiding over a homebirth death AND prostitution received enough donations to “free” her that she could make bail, and then violated the terms.

There appears to be no death so appalling and no circumstance so egregious that homebirth advocates will not rally to support the midwife … not the parents.

3. Homebirth midwives do not learn from their mistakes.

Sociopaths do not learn from their mistakes and repeat the same ones again and again.

Homebirth midwives learn nothing from a disaster or death, refuse to accept any blame and lash out at any attempt to hold them responsible. Inevitably, some will go on to preside over additional deaths. The average obstetrician may lose 1 or 2 term babies in a 40 year career encompassing thousands of births. There are quite a few homebirth midwives who have lost 2 or 3 babies in less than a decade, encompassing 100 or 200 births, if that. Lisa Barrett has lost at least 6 babies from 2007-2012.

MANA, the Midwives Alliance of North America, which represents homebirth midwives has LITERALLY no safety standards, so there is no teaching about safety. There’s no reason to have safety standards when safety is not important.

4. Homebirth midwives have no compunction about lying to protect themselves.

Sociopaths are perfectly comfortable going through their lives telling a series of lies. In fact, true sociopaths are uncomfortable when they are telling the truth. If they are finally caught in a lie, then they will continue to lie and backpedal to cover up the lies.

Indeed From Calling to Courtroom includes advice on lying in specific situation.

In the future my motto is, “No witnesses”…  For those midwives who do carry Pitocin, I would advise them to never admit it to anyone who has the ability to testify (that is, anyone except your husband). If a midwife ever feels the need to inject Pitocin or administer any kind of drug, such as Methergine, she should refer to such substances as “minerals.”

5. Homebirth midwives are emotionally manipulative.

Sociopaths understand human weakness and exploit it maximally. Once determined, they can manipulate individuals to do just about anything. Sociopaths prey on weak people and often stay away from equally strong people; they look for people who are sad, insecure, or looking for a meaning in life because they know that these people are soft targets.

 

There are just the highlights of sociopathy, but even a quick perusal suggests that homebirth midwifery (and doctors who support homebirth midwifery) has more than its share of sociopaths. These are people who preside over deaths and serious injuries of babies and mothers, but express no remorse, refuse to accept any responsibility, consider efforts to hold them accountable to be “persecution,” lie repeatedly to protect themselves, emotionally manipulate clients and refuse to learn from their deadly mistakes.

But even among a group of women notorious for their callousness and narcissism, Lisa Barrett stands apart.

  • Amazed

    Little health coach couldn’t take being told that she was wrong in a healthy way. What a surprise!

    Anyone thinks she’ll change the garbage she spews to pregnant women? Yeah, me neither.

    • Who?

      You guys had fun while I was sleeping!

      • Amazed

        I needed my fun. I spent the day working on a long rambling text of politics and such and I had to take it in slices because it was almost unreadable. She was a great distraction.

        I’m sorry I didn’t take screenshots, though. You would have appreciated it. Especially when she insisted that she was looking at the text of the Birthplace study which showed, you know, a clear lead for homebirth. And talking about deadly PPH was obviously sensationalist language.

        • Who?

          Sorry to have missed it! No doubt she’ll pop up again though.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      one can hope, but probably not. sigh.

    • yugaya

      She’s just the usual birth quack, although claiming to have a legitimate therapist degree based on taking a free futurelearn course is quite a new low.

      There’s a book coming out too: “Featuring cutting-edge research” :)))
      http://www.hypnobirthingcoventry.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/7394?opendocument&part=5

      • Sarah

        I wish she’d told us where in the UK they offer routine induction at 40+4. Wanted to know that. Whether true or otherwise!

        • maidmarian555

          I expect any woman who’s been forced to go over a week past term because ‘policy’ would too! I’m fairly sure if that were true they’d have lots of women queueing up to give birth at that hospital.

  • maidmarian555

    Did Kelly delete all her comments?! Wow. That’s rude.

    • Madtowngirl

      Yep, looks like a dirty delete occurred.

    • Kq

      Cowards gonna coward. I mean, it’s either that or accept that she was…. GASP CLUTCH PEARLS wrong. Maybe. A little.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Both in this one and the next one.

  • StephanieJR

    Medical care is not a ‘hobby’. No one in any country should expect their baby to die. What is wrong with these people!

  • Kelly Palmer

    Following this debate with interest. I’m a doula in the UK and things seem to be very different here – my understanding of a ‘woman-centred birth’ is one where the woman has all the information she needs to make an informed choice. Where the woman and her baby are nurtured and protected. Whether that is in hospital or at home, evidence based and compassionate care is key. Home birth is as safe as hospital birth here (where there are no complications) and I’m wondering what’s made the difference?

    • Amazed

      THere are many factors in play but the main one seems to be the one you gave: homebirth midwives in the US and Lisa Barret in Australia knowingly take on high risk mothers, i.e. there are complications.

      BTW, home birth in the UK rates better than home birth in the US but its safety is equal to the safety of hospital birth only in strict conditions that are never followed in real life. IOW, homebirth as it should be is as safe as hospital birth. Homebirth as it is? Not so much.

      • Kelly Palmer

        I agree with your first point; midwives here are all trained to the same standards whether attending home or hospital births. Home birth isn’t recommended in high risk situations, though it is of course the woman’s choice, but she should be made fully aware of the risks. And doulas and TBAs don’t seek to take a midwife role; we’re there to support the mother emotionally and the ideal is all caregivers are working together and respecting the woman’s and the baby’s needs. However your second point I’m afraid is simply untrue. The NHS itself has published stats that show where there are no complications, homebirth is as safe as hospital birth for subsequent babies (risks are slightly higher with first babies) in terms of mortality, infant and maternal. And rates of unnecessary intervention and birth trauma are far lower with a homebirth, so in some cases its actually safer. ‘Homebirth as it is’ is generally excellent here. You may be thinking of freebirthing, where women choose to give birth with no medical caregiver present. I wonder do you have birthing centres in the US? Many UK and European women choose these as a safe and great way to get the best of a homey non-clinical environment with medical care close at hand if needed. Rates for our birthing centres are excellent.

        • Amazed

          “Slightly higher with first babies”? It’s two times higher, actually. Is this “slight” to you? And the NHS which, BTW, aims to limit medical expenses, has published stats where all homebirths that actually took place were cleansed from all reasons that should have prevented being approved for homebirth in the first place. These stats would only have any meaning if they were followed by actual adherence in life to the same lines that were used to choose the homebirths included in the stats. But they weren’t. And your clarification “where there are no complications” render the rest of your post meaningless because no one can guarantee there would be no complications. Not in advance. And first babies are especially tricky. 40 percent of their mothers transferred so they didn’t get this lovely intervention-free birth anyway. Some of them got – I suppose – belated interventions and dead babies out of the deal.

          Birthing centres in the US are as different as the two types of midwives in the US and their stats reflect it.

          Your post sounds like you’re equating receiving interventions that in hindsight were not needed with not receiving interventions when they were needed (“slight” risk of a dead baby) and this premise is so very wrong. An episiotomy? A c-section? You can recover from that. I find it very hard to believe that you can recover from a dead or permanently damaged baby just as easily.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I agree. Infant loss is by far the worst outcome. I have been a -highly qualified – perinatal therapist for longer than I have a doula and infant loss is terrible. I’m not a diehard NCB advocate. Sometimes NCB is the best option, sometimes it is not. Each case is different. I advocate for evidence-based, compassionate care. My only issue with intervention is as you say when its not necessary, and I’m not equating the two. When necessary C-sections are lifesavers and to be applauded. We don’t routinely do episiotomies here; they’re considered unnecessary in the majority of cases. That’s based again on solid evidence. Where I say ‘no complications’ perhaps that would be better phrased as ‘classed as low-risk’. In those cases, where women have been classed as low-risk in advance, homebirth is indeed generally safe. The stats I’m looking at show a 3.8% increase in risk for first-time babies, totalling the risk at 9 babies in 1000. The overall risk is slight, though for many mothers and for myself personally, too much of a risk to take – that’s an individual choice. The Birthplace Study in 2011 is independent of the NHS, the stats are sound. I find the differences between midwives in the US confusing as we don’t have that here. I’m not on this post to argue but rather learn about the differences between the UK and US. I’m seeing real vitriol from both sides (completely natural birth vs highly medicalised) and don’t really understand it? That happens here too, but I think its less polarised.

          • Karen in SC

            Almost all interventions are given so a vaginal birth can be achieved. So I’m not sure you can ever make more than a correlation to rate of c-sections. For example – labor stalling at 8 cm for 4 hrs. Only if you randomized into three groups of 1. going to a c-section or 2. expectant management or 3. Give pitocin could you determine a cause and effect. Many in Group 2 will still end up with a c-section. Maybe a lot more than you would think Ms. Interventions Cause C-sections. Group 3 would have both. Then look at outcomes – timely c-sections save babies and save brain. Crash sections occasionally fail to save the baby or brain.

          • Karen in SC

            In the United States
            Of the 1,751 deaths within a year of pregnancy termination that occurred in 2011 and were reported to CDC, 702 were found to be pregnancy-related. The pregnancy-related mortality ratio was 17.8 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2011.
            Considerable racial disparities in pregnancy-related mortality exist. In 2011, the pregnancy-related mortality ratios were
            12.5 deaths per 100,000 live births for white women.
            42.8 deaths per 100,000 live births for black women.
            17.3 deaths per 100,000 live births for women of other races.
            The graph below shows percentages of pregnancy-related deaths in the United States in 2011 caused by
            Cardiovascular diseases, 15.1%.
            Non-cardiovascular diseases, 14.1%.
            Infection or sepsis, 14.0%.
            Hemorrhage, 11.3%.
            Cardiomyopathy, 10.1%.
            Thrombotic pulmonary embolism, 9.8%.
            Hypertensive disorders of pregnancy, 8.4%.
            Amniotic fluid embolism, 5.6%.
            Cerebrovascular accidents, 5.4%.
            Anesthesia complications, 0.3%.
            The cause of death is unknown for 5.9% of all 2011 pregnancy-related deaths.

          • Kelly Palmer

            Thank you for this. Is there any evidence explaining the disparities between race?

          • Kelly Palmer

            I said unnecessary interventions can cause adverse outcomes. You misquoted me. Personally I would prefer a C-section to a forceps delivery. Unnecessary C-sections however are less safe than low-risk vaginal births. The key is the word ‘unnecessary’. I’m struggling to understand the strong position against natural childbirth on this site. Its not always achievable. I had an induction (leading to unassisted delivery) for my third baby as it was necessary. It was still a great birth. I’m not anti-intervention, but they can be overused. Without the woman being given the full info. Surely when a natural birth is both advisable and wanted, that’s a good thing too?

          • yugaya

            “I have been a -highly qualified – perinatal therapist” What kid of credential is that? Are you a licensed medical professional who can legally provide prenatal care? Are you a licensed therapist who can legally provide treatment? Or are you just using another oversized doula fancy name to sell your crap?

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m not sure what the personal insulting is about? I have done none. And I sell no crap as most of my doula work is charitable and with vulnerable women – largely at hospitals or birthing centres. And yes, I am a licensed therapist at postgraduate level, trained at one of our top universities, specialising in perinatal care, fully insured and accredited, thank you. I trained as a doula purely because of seeing the damage birth trauma causes. Having a friendly female face around makes a difference. I’m not a midwife and NEVER try to take on the midwifes role. Or the obstetricians. Can I ask why there seems to be such vitriol aimed at doulas on this site?

          • Amazed

            For how long have you been reading this site? Why are you so quick to decide that it’s vitriol against doulas, instead of something that you wrote?

            One of our most cherished contributors here is a doula. Doula Dani. Sadly (or happily, depends on PoV), she hasn’t appeared for a while. With three toddlers, it’s hard for her to find the time for us.

            I’d recommend reading a bit more on a site to gather the spirit and so on before accusing people of being mean. That’s the spirit of true British midwifery leaders. Sheena Byrom’s specialty.

          • Kelly Palmer

            For a few weeks. And have noticed a definite trend towards anti natural birth most certainly and anyone who ever advocates it (a lot of doulas). I do find the tone often sensationalist and unnecessarily aggressive so far, yes. And I’m really interested to understand why. To be clear, in my profession my main goal is always the mental and emotional wellbeing of the woman. Hence why I can fully agree that infant loss is the worst possible outcome, yet still be concerned about the trauma caused by unnecessary intervention. And the undeniable links to PND, which I have worked with for many years. It is an issue. I realise there are many more, and some often conflict.

          • Amazed

            How is your search of Sheena Byrom going? Because if you agree that infant loss is the worst possible outcome, you wouldn’t have been here berating us for sensationalising real risks as you tout homebirth as equally safe for low risk women which it isn’t. You would have joined us in being terrified at the warped value system of the flower of the UK midwifery.

            Oh, and spare me the “between a woman and provider” thing. You didn’t think so when you were writing about a low-risk woman like my mother. Low-risk women can happily have homebirths without it being between them and their provider but when a clear indication for a c-section arises – oh, let them discuss it!

          • Busbus

            Hi Kelly P., I had two home births that were medically uneventful (although, as I later realized, they were not low-risk, which came as a shock since no one had properly explained the dangerous impact of certain factors to me). However, the pain was unimaginably brutal both times – I am in a different, nonrational universe where I want to die to make this stop kind of brutal – and in the end quite traumatic. I ended up with PPD (PND) and looking back, I wonder whether my untreated pain (and some other factors during birth) contributed to it.

            I am writing this to emphasize that it is necessary to keep a truly open mind about birth technology when it comes to helping women through labor and pp. Ideology had no place in mental health.
            After my second child was born, I could practically “smell” the NCB-assumptions in certain people (lactation consultants, various professionals, but also acquaintances) and it just rendered me mute. I don’t think I ever confided in or spoke openly to any of them. I was already depressed, and their assumptions felt like guilt-inducing accusations to me, like I had already failed their motherhood criteria. Sometimes I secretly hated them while smiling and nodding and trying to get away. I was not in a good place, but the feeling that so many people were seeing their ideology (and looking to affirm it) instead of seeing me, and that whatever I said would be reinterpreted to fit their preconceived notions, was toxic.

            How many of the women you’ve worked with did not share their true feelings with you because they felt that you already “had the answer,” or because it can be really hard to voice feelings that do not fit the NCB-narrative to someone who believes in it?

            It’s important to understand that interventions that seem to have been unnecessary in hindsight are just one side of the coin. Interventions that would have been needed but weren’t done can be just as problematic psychologically, and medically speaking, the effects of not performing a needed intervention are frequently devastating.

          • yugaya

            “I am a licensed therapist at postgraduate level.”

            You sure? A life coach? A Mindfulness based CBT diploma? You kidding me?

            https://www.centreofexcellence.com/shop/mindfulness-based-cbt-diploma/

          • yugaya

            “This course is certified by the IANLPC (International Association of NLP & Coaching) and the IAHT (International Alliance of Holistic Therapists), both of which are internationally recognised organisations. The IAHT certify personal development, health, fitness and nutrition courses. The IANLPC is a global support network for NLP Professionals and coaches, including the fields of Life Coaching, Hypnotherapy Business Coaching, Leadership, Nutritional, CBT, Personal Development and Holistic Therapy.”

            LOLZEEE.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I also hold a BA Hons in Social Studies from Warwick University, a Postgraduate Diploma in Perinatal Mental Health also from Warwick University and a Psychotherapeutic Counselling Level 6. I wonder at your need for personal attack. Can I ask your credentials and background please?

          • yugaya

            Has our guest gone with the wind and taken all of her comments with her? I was about to ask about “Postgraduate Diploma in Perinatal Mental Health also from Warwick University”

            All I’m finding that fits that description is this: https://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/med/about/centres/wifwu/training/

            “Requirements:

            This free online course is aimed at everyone who has an interest in promoting the well-being of their own baby, or the parents and babies they work with. You do not need any prior knowledge of infant or child development, just a desire to learn about parents and babies, and the way that early interaction shapes later development. The course is based on the latest research in the field and you will be introduced to key concepts relating to infant psychology and attachment.

            Course available at:

            http://www.futurelearn.com/courses/babies-in-mind

          • swbarnes2

            I think she scrapped her Discus account. I’m trying to load it, but it won’t load (Could just be Discus, I guess)

          • yugaya

            ” The overall risk is slight,” No it is not because we do measure perinatal mortality in per thousands, and the increase in risks associated with homebirth is called excess mortality. As in completely preventable. And in that category, each and every single death is one too many. RCOG has a target campaign called “Each Baby Counts”.

            They don’t find more dead babies to be just a “slight” problem – it is their focus to save each and every one of them.

          • Amazed

            How can you define which C-sections are necessary in advance? Is only a life-saving C-section ever needed? Do you think a c-section for breech with no other indications is ever needed?

            The Birthplace study is extremely biased. And studies – not anecdate – show that British midwifery does have a problem. Personally, I think the problem isn’t this much the skills of midwives but their management. When the Kathy Warwicks of the world are doing their best to turn preventable deaths into job opportunities and pity fest for poor midwives, the profession has a problem. If the boss sings, you sing along.

            You might agree that infant loss is the worst outcome but let’s be fair. When midwives who rank as high as Sheena Byrom mock these babies and their parents, I find it hard to believe that they see infant loss as a bad outcome at all. And they are the face of the UK midwifery.

          • Kelly Palmer

            For a C-section for breech with no other indications – its between the woman and her caregivers, quite honestly. I would say that’s very individual. I’m not familiar with Sheena Byrom – do you have a link?

          • Amazed

            Just type her name in the search box of the blog. You aren’t obliged to read the “ridiculous” posts themselves. But you will find the links in the many posts devoted to this good and great, safe UK midwife. Perhaps you’d want to chat to her about infant loss with the same zeal you’re chatting to us about evil interventions.

          • Kelly Palmer

            Not evil, no. Simply, unnecessary intervention is linked with adverse outcomes. I’m not into sensationalising on either side.

          • Chi

            Specifics please. WHICH interventions do you define as unnecessary? And WHAT are the ‘adverse outcomes’ of said interventions?

          • yugaya

            Well you are then a typical bullshit doula who is stepping out of her doula scope because you know, globally, a CS for breech is medically indicated.
            Has been for almost two decades now. Is linked with immense improvements in perinatal mortality for breech babies.

            It’s not “individual”. There is no CS for breech that is “unnecessary”.

        • Charybdis

          Hospitals here in the US DO offer things like a homey, non-clinical appearing environment. Jacuzzi tubs for labor (no water deliveries, though), birthing balls, dimmable lights, ability to play the “birth playlist music” of your choice, being able to labor and deliver in a number of positions, walking during labor, effective pain relief in the form of epidurals or IV/IM pain meds, and a number of comfort measures so prized by the homebirth crowd.

          IV or heplock for quick delivery of medications/fluids/blood if needed and fetal monitoring, either continuous (either by wireless or wired monitoring equipment) or intermittent monitoring (15 minutes out of every hour or some such). These are not unreasonable requests, as they are for the safety of the mother and baby.

          No one is forced onto their backs, strapped down, given twilight anesthesia, shaved or given enemas anymore. The NCB crowd really needs to tour/examine hospital maternity floors more often than every 40-50 years. The hospital picture they paint is decades out of date.

          • Kelly Palmer

            That sounds amazing; I’m guessing its pricey though? Is that available at all levels of care? I don’t believe monitoring is at all unreasonable and I get some very anxious clients who will actually ask for extra monitoring! I explain my position on NCB vs medical below; I don’t believe it has to be either/or.

    • Charybdis

      But what do you do in a home birth when things go awry? Shouder dystocia is not predictable, neither is cord prolapse. Placental abruption isn’t predictable either. So how are potential complications like these addressed in a “woman centered birth” as you describe it? Are they even mentioned as potential complications? Or do you rely on the old “the hospital is only 5-10 minutes away, so there will be PLENTY of time to get you to proper help if things start to go south!” trope?
      Midwives are decidedly NOT risking out women who should be risked out. Why is that? You should have a proven pelvis to even consider attempting a home birth, no GD, history of macrosomic babies, HBAC, etc. These things don’t seem to be being addressed, so as not to “scare” the woman or cause her to doubt her body.
      Why is that?

      • Kelly Palmer

        I believe these things are being addressed? I don’t believe in holding info back from a woman – that completely negates the concept of informed choice, which I believe is crucial. Those things are predictable in some cases (shoulder dystopia more likely with GD which would be classed as high-risk). Women are always made aware of the risks and asked to consider travelling times. I’m hearing on this site that homebirth should never happen, which I think is as wrong as the opposite view.

        • yugaya

          No these things are not being addressed because midwives in UK attending homebirths paid by NHS are actively enabling their clients to go against medical advice and risking out criteria. Like this post term HBA2C: https://web.archive.org/web/20160628203110/https://www.treeoflifedoulaphotography.com/my-journey-to-birth-story-of-hba2c/ The midwife who attended it has now moved from independent to working for a local trust, and she is running around the internet stating how breech vaginal births will be attended in the local stand alone MLU where she works while following “HANDS OFF BREECH” bullshit protocols that she and her enablers are introducing there. You know which midwife is the world *expert* in midwifery world for that HANDS OFF BREECH bullshit? It’s Lisa Barrett, and her vaginal breech homebirth death rate is 10%.

          UK homebirth midwifery is unfortunately as bad now as Lisa Barrett was on her best behaviour day.

          • Kelly Palmer

            Have you experienced UK homebirth midwifery? Because I believe it – and have seen it – to be excellent. You’re referring to one woman here, who is certainly not the norm for NHS midwives. The majority of NHS midwives stick very, very closely to both medical advice and NICE guidelines.

          • maidmarian555

            I was one of four women in my hospital’s induction unit who got to experience the consequences of “excellent” UK homebirth when the midwife responsible for our care was pulled off to attend a homebirth. Leading to a break in care for all of us whilst we waited for the evening shift to come on. That break in care caused problems for me- it’s all well and good talking about how great it is for the women who get to enjoy their homebirths but when labour wards are already chronically understaffed it’s not necessarily the best use of an overstretched system. Which is part of the conversation that always seems to be missed when I hear people talking about UK homebirth.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m with you on this. Understaffing and lack of continuity of care is a huge issue here that needs to be addressed.

          • Amazed

            By having more women have homebirths?

          • Kelly Palmer

            That’s not what I said?

          • Amazed

            I know. But at the moment, you can have either more homebirths, or better staffed maternity wards. Your encouragement of more women to have homebirths leaves mothers like maidmarian unattended. There simply aren’t enough midwives as it is.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I don’t believe I said anything about encouraging more homebirths. At any point. I said its a relatively safe choice here.

          • yugaya

            “Have you experienced UK homebirth midwifery?”

            Do not move the goalposts.

            “I believe it – and have seen it – to be excellent”

            Another logical fallacy – your anecdata is worthless when compared with what the findings of recent investigations that found it to be more than lacking. Also you should go and read MBRRACE reports and the findings in them of systematic failure to summon higher level of care and consultants, or the systematic failure to adequately assess maternal and neonatal conditions that require immediate action. This is a blog on which such doula “I’ve seen it with me own eyes” bs does not fly.

            “The majority of NHS midwives stick very, very closely to both medical advice and NICE guidelines.” Citation needed. Documenting that the opposite is true see the MBRRACE recommendations in the reports I mentioned. They are rather specific.

          • Kelly Palmer

            Do you have a link to the report? I shall read it.

          • yugaya

            Don’t be intellectually lazy. After all, you are the birth *professional*.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m reading reports. I’m not finding the data you’re referring to, so I’m asking you to signpost me to it.

          • yugaya

            In that case you need to read with more comprehension. Here are the findings regarding maternal deaths due to PPH:

            Key recommendations regarding maternal deaths from hemorrhage in UK:

            Antenatal care and abnormal results

            -Underestimation of blood loss in smaller women

            -Communication, Ownership, Leadership and Teamwork (the main problems identified with
            communication involved •disagreements in estimated blood loss in three women •lack of communication of concerns regarding blood loss in
            five women •not escalating to a senior when their condition deteriorated in two women)

            -Recognition of haemorrhage and the deteriorating woman.The severity of the situation was not recognised in11 women (61%).

            -Inadequate observations were a feature in seven deaths.

            – Abnormal observations were not escalated in five women.”

            Hmmmm. Sounds awful lot like systematic failure to monitor and escalate high risk situations, doesn’ it? Like you know, primary birth attendants ( midwives in UK in most cases) are you know, not “medicalized” enough and are ignoring safe care protocols?

            And that is just one major cause of preventable deaths. Now go and read and use your brain this time to understand what you are reading.

        • swbarnes2

          “Asked to consider?” Are women given the relevant information? Like “A severe PPH could kill you in 10 minutes” Or “If anything compromises the fetus’s connection to your body, it won’t be getting oxygen until its born”?

          • Kelly Palmer

            Sensationalist language like that wouldn’t be used no. But risks legally have to be fully explained yes. However risks for severe PPH and lack of oxygen to foetus are small. Correct facts should be given and the woman can make her mind up based on those.

          • swbarnes2

            Is what I said inaccurate? The risk of a car crash is small, would you have medical personnel tell parents its okay not to use car seats?

      • American guest

        Forgive my ignorance here. I am very confused by this thread. Perhaps someone can explain.

        I was under the impression that midwives in the UK were medical professionals, with training similar to nurses, and usually worked out of hospitals or clinics. I thought that they just offered standard prenatal and birth care, and were not associated with the natural childbirth movement as it is understood in the United States.

        Are there different types of midwives in the UK? Would a midwife who was called to attend a homebirth be different than a midwife who attends births in a hospital?

        • Poogles

          Generally speaking, you’re not off-base – UK midwives are pretty much the same as CNMs in the US and work in hospitals and birth centers, as well as attend homebirths. Unfortunately, the ideology of the NCB movement has been showing up in UK midwives with increasing frequency, leading to more dead and damaged babies and mothers.

          • yugaya

            The problem in UK is that the vile, deadly cult of natural childbirth has infiltrated the entire system. Morecambe Bay were deaths due to same kind of ideological recklessness that Lisa Barrett or the worst fake CPm midwives in USA display, and they all happened with midwives in a hospital.

    • swbarnes2

      Yes, and driving with no seatbelt is just as safe as driving while wearing one if there are no accidents.

      Unless you can point to a woman and be 100% sure that she will suffer no complications, she’s better off in a hospital. Can you predict with 99.999% certainly which women will not suffer a complication?

      • Kelly Palmer

        As explained below, by ‘no complications’ I mean ‘has already been classified as low risk’. I believe the choice – informed choice, so fully aware of all risks – should be the womans.

        • swbarnes2

          Low risk is not the same as no risk. Low risk women do suffer complications. If there are no complications, a woman does just fine with a taxi driver, or no one at all. There are a few cases previously described on this board where a a death might have been averted if the woman had chosen to try to freebirth, and then gone to the hospital when she felt something was wrong, instead of staying put at the urging of the midwife.

          • Kelly Palmer

            So is the general consensus on this site that no woman should ever have a homebirth? Genuine question.

          • Sarah

            It certainly is not. Plenty of us would never think to generalise about what no woman should or shouldn’t do.

          • Kelly Palmer

            Certainly not the general consensus or certainly not a homebirth?

          • Sarah

            Certainly not the general consensus.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m glad. Though a little confused then at the attacking.

          • yugaya

            No true Scotsman.

            At this point I’m thinking you are going after homebirth bingo.

          • Kelly Palmer

            ??

          • yugaya

            Look it up. Your “genuine question” is another logical fallacy.

            A what point will you stop to think for a moment about why is it that your argumentation is so extremely faulty? And will you be able to figure out that it is because you are argumenting a faulty set of beliefs?

          • Kelly Palmer

            Can you please explain what it is about my beliefs (and you are clearly making an assumption about these) that you believe are faulty?

          • yugaya

            You are using faulty logic to argue your points. Either you are incapable of using adult critical thinking skills, or your personal beliefs and biases are screwing up your ability to reason and argument. Given the loaded language and use of parroted homebirth points, my money is on the latter.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I would agree a woman should follow her feeling. That is a shocking example of midwifery care.

    • yugaya

      “Home birth is as safe as hospital birth here” No it isn’t. It is just being sold as such. If you are about to quote the composite outcomes from The Birthplace Study as evidence, I strongly urge you to read past entries on this blog about what the data in it actually says, once you make a clear distinction between a dead baby as outcome and a baby with a boken bone that is alive.

      • Kelly Palmer

        Thank you I’ll look at this.

        • Kelly Palmer

          Getting underneath the sensationalist language, the main issue seems to be with home VBACs. I’d agree risks are high here, I’d never personally advocate a home VBAC. A VBAC is high-risk. That’s very different from, say, a woman with a third baby who is low-risk and has had previous low-risk natural deliveries. In her case, a homebirth would be as safe as a hospital birth.

          • swbarnes2

            Even if she has a complication?

          • yugaya

            No, the main issue is with UK midwives encouraging women to have all sorts of high risk OOH births against medical advice – on a recent blog about UK midwifery we had a UK midwife come and brag how they enabled a woman who should have been risked out of waterbirth in MLU to have one. The comments on that blog ended up as a perfect testament of the ignorance and intentional ignoring of the risks in order to have women experience a dim lights wonderful waterbirth at all costs.

            Because priorities.

          • Kelly Palmer

            That’s one UK midwife. Who is very definitely not the norm. Most midwives here are actually very medicalised.

          • yugaya

            “That’s one UK midwife.” Oh FFS. Morecambe Bay was also one bad apple? No, it was a rotten crop poisoned by adherence to deadly ideology of natural childbirh.

          • yugaya

            “Most midwives here are actually very medicalised.”

            ZOMG. You say that as if..as if it’s something….bad? That licensed HCPs are operating within the boundaries of safe care guidelines of modern medicine?

            Puke. And so fucking predictable.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I didn’t say it was bad. And again – why the personal insults?

          • yugaya

            You didn’t say that most midwives in UK adhere to current safe care guidelines. You used loaded language and said how they were “medicalized”.

            Also: noting that your biases are vomit-inducing and predictable is not personal insults.

          • yugaya

            ” In her case, a homebirth would be as safe as a hospital birth.” Nope. There is still increased risk of ending up with a dead baby.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m afraid not. Risks are not significantly different in such a case. That is what our medical establishment says. We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (though of course not without its issues). Before you cite the ridiculous comment about the NHS wanting to save money, we would argue the US health system makes a hell of a lot of money out of inductions, assisted delivery and C-sections.

          • yugaya

            Kelly citation needed. Go back to actual data in The Birthplace Study and look up rates of dead or stillborn baby as outcome in any midwife-led care setting for multiparas.

            “That is what our medical establishment says.” No, that is not what RCOG says.

          • Kelly Palmer

            OK, I’m looking at the Saving Babies Lives report 2013. Endorsed by the RCOG,NHS, MBBRACE and RCM. I’m not finding the data you’re pointing me to.

          • yugaya

            LOL. “I’m not finding the data you’re pointing me to.” Perhaps because my previous comment pointed you to The Birthplace Study for the data? And not for composite outcomes please.

          • Kelly Palmer

            This takes all of the data from the Birthplace Study, as well as others, into account. Why would I quote the Birthplace Study at you when you are adamant is it flawed? Can I ask, as you have asked me, what your ‘credentials’ and also biases are here?

          • yugaya

            I’m not adamant that data in The Birthplace Study is flawed at all. The real data in it, not the fancy press releases with composite outcomes. FFS. How many times do I have to repeat it? Search this blog if you are that lazy, dr Tuteur has both written about it and linked the full reports with all the numbers fully disclosed.

          • Kelly Palmer

            The RCOG supports homebirth in uncomplicated pregnancies. And it supports the Birthplace Study. And I’m reading the Birthplace Study as we speak. I am not finding anything that backs up your assertions. I have read Dr Tuteurs posts and I’m sorry, many of the statements she makes are inaccurate, wildly so. I am interested to know your position on childbirth, and where this comes from?

          • yugaya

            You are reading the actual full report Birthplace Study and failing to compute the actual outcomes and rates? Are you sure?

            http://www.netscc.ac.uk/hsdr/files/project/SDO_FR4_08-1604-140_V03.pdf

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m sorry. I see nothing here that backs up your assertions. Homebirth is generally incredibly safe. This is clear. Rates of stillbirth for first-time mothers are higher, but incredibly small still. Rates of neonatal death ARE THE SAME. The fact there is so little difference I think says more about the unsafe nature of hospital birth. Surely, if your viewpoint is correct, hospital births should be significantly safer than homebirths? Are you fully aware I wonder of the rates of poor perinatal mental health directly resulting from traumatic hospital birth? The scaremongering here is shocking. Women have the right to birth where they choose, and should be given the full information so they can make their minds up from that. I’ve read some of your earlier posts. You regularly insult people in an incredibly childish and antisocial manner and refer to midwives as serial killers. I wonder at your motivations.

          • Homebirths are supposed to be the lowest risk ones only. Hospitals take all the rest. The same outcomes, when one group is high risk and one group is low risk, means that the low risk group is doing something horribly wrong.

          • Amazed

            I recommend checking your eyesight, then, Or your reasoning abilities. Or simply admit that you’re here for the homebirth bingo, now that you have come to bleat about traumatic hospital birth.

            The results are clear. Sorry, but you’re way off your league. Still, out of curiosity, what do you make of Table 37? Other than, “We should exclude them because they were higher risk!” despite the fact that your beloved homebirth midwives have taken them in life and not the perfect circumstances you seem to think reflect practice?

          • Kelly Palmer

            You will find this is what the RCOG says. Home birth is supported for uncomplicated pregnancies. https://www.rcm.org.uk/sites/default/files/home_births_rcog_rcm0607.pdf

          • yugaya

            Supported? Yes as in it’s a choice within ethical boundaries. Deemed as just as safe as hospital? Nope. Recommended by RCOG? Not even for lowest risk women among which “some” will have ethically acceptable outcomes same as VBAC with increased rate of baby deaths is still an ethically acceptable choice. They actually recommend more alongside MLUs instead of homebirth or freestanding MLUs quite openly and directly.

            https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/news/rcog-statement-on-bmj-home-birth-study/

          • Kelly Palmer

            The results showed that for women who had previously given birth, adverse outcomes were less common among planned home births (1 per 1000) than among planned hospital births (2.3 per 1000). The rate of postpartum haemorrhage was 19.6 per 1000 for a planned home birth compared with 37.6 per 1000 for a planned hospital birth.

            For women having their first baby the rate of severe outcomes for a planned home birth was 2.3 per 1000 compared with 3.1 per 1000 for a planned hospital birth. The rate of postpartum haemorrhage was 43.1 per 1000 for a planned home compared with 43.3 per 1000 for a planned hospital birth.

            ?? You just quoted this at me. This portrays planned home birth as less associated with adverse outcomes. I’ll leave this there.

          • yugaya

            It’s a Dutch study. Did you skim over the many points made on why the Netherlands is in far better position to endorse homebirths as a safe enough option? Did you miss the part where the president of RCOG stated how this study gives leverage to having more alongside MLUs in UK and not more homebirths?

          • Kelly Palmer

            I’m sorry. The evidence I’m looking at doesn’t support your assertions. In fact the exact opposite.

          • yugaya

            You are looking up birth blogs instead of looking at actual outcomes in the actual study. Not the composite outcomes where a dead baby is the same as a baby alive but with a broken bone. Not composite outcomes where not breastfeeding is the same as a 4th degree tear.

          • Kelly Palmer
          • yugaya

            AIMS? Are you insulting on purpose? do you understand the difference between digest opinions and actual numbers in the Birthplace Study itself?

          • Amazed

            What would you say about a 29 year old second time mother who has had a successful vaginal birth more than 24 hours ago aided by forceps, is slender and healthy, well-fed, a baby’s weight could not be tracked due to the lack of ultrasound machine but her first birth was that of a 9 pounder? Would a homebirth be as safe as a hospital birth for her?

          • Kelly Palmer

            Personally, I would want the ultrasound before making that decision.

          • Amazed

            There is no ultrasound. The hospital doesn’t have one. But midwives have ascertained that the baby is head down. Is she a good candidate or not?

          • Kelly Palmer

            There would always be an ultrasound given here. That should be standard care and if its not available that’s a serious failing. Without the ultrasound, I wouldn’t personally have a homebirth no. I’d go for a midwife-led birthing centre, most likely.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I also wouldn’t class assisted delivery as a good outcome for a vaginal birth. Forceps are used less and less often here unless absolutely necessary. I personally would have a C-section before a forceps delivery. So in this case I would want to know what led the mother to end up with an assisted delivery in the first birth.

          • Amazed

            She was classified as low-risk. In your words, as safe at home as in hospital. And she would have died. She had one of these PPH that can kill a woman in under 10 minutes and since she had been bleeding for about five before a cleaner found her, she lost her pulse (or blood pressure) as the doctors and midwives fought to save her.

            The fact that PPH happen on such a small scale would have been no comfort for me, her first child, or my brother who was born that day. Or my father who was so traumatised that he refused to have more children since he was terrified of ending up a single father. But keep talking of sensationalist language, do not let anedcata stop you. After all, the risk was so small. If she had stayed home, she would have been 100 per cent dead, though.

            A midwife-led unit nowadays? Perhaps they could have saved her life. Perhaps.

            FYI, the reason she had a vacuum birth (my mistake, not forceps) was my huge head.

          • Kelly Palmer

            I am sorry that happened to your mother. But she didn’t choose a homebirth. If a woman is aware of the risks of PPH – and they should legally be told these when they ask for a homebirth – and still choose a homebirth, that is their choice and it should surely be respected.

  • Charybdis

    Yeah, she’s a real piece of work. She’s the midwife who confidently stated the following:

    We were all gobsmacked when Lisa reported that she’d found a statistic about the average amount of days between twins being born as 47 days….. It seems that many twins are born prematurely, and when one comes out early, they do their best to keep the second one in for as long as possible. She’d also bounced what was happening off some trusted advisors, and they all agreed that while I was healthy, and the baby inside was healthy, there was no ‘normal’ time for twins to be born. In fact, in the days before hospital births became the norm, it was not uncommon at all for twins to be born days or even weeks apart. It’s only since birth has entered the treadmill of a hospital schedule that the second twin has only been allowed half an hour to make their own entry, before the birthing woman is induced to bring them on.
    Plus, the first twin delivered had a short cord that was cut and clamped, but the cord kept filling with blood, which puzzled them because why would the cord from the already delivered twin continue to fill with blood while she was waiting 24+ hour for the second to be born?
    What is WRONG with these people?

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      If it were common, why do we hear about it whenever it happens? Fools.

    • Melaniexxxx

      This is just… insane. Interval delivery is RARE af and usually only attempted as a desperate measure to save one bub in labours of extreme prematurity

  • Ozlsn

    Delurking to say that the Australian midwives I know have a problem with Barrett because of her lack of professionalism (resulting in dead babies) and because it brings the entire profession into disrepute. The fact they don’t like her personality is more a bonus reason to dislike her. I found the comments on the Australian College of Midwifery’s facebook page under their statement about the case very revealing – at least one was lambasting the ACM for moving “towards professionalism and away from woman-centred practice”. Most midwives I know and deal with would not consider those mutually exclusive, it’s really only the fringe who seem to regard any and all medical intervention as non-woman-centred. The other revealing comment was from someone planning a home vba2c, who was being “forced” into looking for illegal midwives or freebirthing because she couldn’t find a midwife willing to take her (I know, right? You’d think she was high risk or something.) Mind you she also had a bit of a rant about the broken capitalist maternity system on her blog… on her doula/hypnobirthing business page. OK then…

    • swbarnes2

      I think what they really mean is “not centered on how amazing me, the woman, the midwife is”. Professionalism is about skills and training and results, not making the practitioner feel good about what they do.

  • MissKate

    I say let her keep digging herself into a bigger and bigger hole. This will undoubtedly be used against her in court to show complete lack of remorse and hopefully work towards increasing the sentence.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD
  • namaste863

    Oh, and one more thing; If she has traveled extensively through developing countries she should damn well realize that bitching and moaning about her “Birth experience” is pretty much the epitome of first-world entitlement.

  • Melaniexxxx

    Injecting substances that can have serious side effects into wimen and lying about it? Calling them minerals? These disgusting people have NO ethics and despite all their flailing rhetoric NO resoect for womens autonomy. Who are the evil paternalist bastards in birthing, again? Certainly doesnt look to be OBs

  • namaste863

    So let me get this straight- we are fortunate enough to live in high-resource settings in an era when if a baby is dying in childbirth we have the technology and resources to do something about it, and we’re supposed to just…..what? Sit on our hands and say “Oh well, shit happens?” How does that make even the most remote bit of sense? Do these idiots even register the fact that they are dealing with human lives? That babies aren’t pets, that they grow into adults? And health care is NOT a fucking hobby! Quilting is a hobby! Archery is a hobby! Being a healthcare practitioner is a sacred trust. I’m a mental healthcare worker, and not a day passes that I’m not aware of the weight of responsibility I carry on my shoulders, that I am holding people’s well being in my hands. Frankly, I don’t see how any healthcare provider couldnt. If they don’t, it means they aren’t taking their job seriously and have no business practicing.

    • Cat

      Besides, the possible outcomes aren’t just “healthy baby” or “death”. Some of my friends and family work with people with severe special educational needs, quite a high proportion of whom suffered brain damage during birth. For the most part, their families loved them very much, but it clearly wasn’t an easy ride. It wasn’t just a case of going “hey, shit happens, let’s just have more babies and forget about it” – the consequences of a birth-gone-wrong were going to be with them, and any other children that they had, for the rest of their lives.

    • Mel

      I offer a new hobby for people who want a nice, long-term hobby.

      I live in the lower peninsula of Michigan. It’s been glaciated a few times. There is bedrock somewhere below the glacial moraine, but we only know what is in difference places based on things like well and gas drilling.

      What we really need is someone who is willing to dig some random test holes. Just need to move all the gravel/sand off the bedrock, then start breaking into the bedrock with a pick while identifying each bedrock layer as you progress.

      Lot of pointless exhaustion exercise, lots of tedium obstacles to overcome and plenty of hallucinations euphoria to be had!

    • Roadstergal

      “That babies aren’t pets”

      I wouldn’t stand for someone to treat pets as callously as these women treat babies.

      • BeatriceC

        I could be induced to violence if somebody treated my birds half as badly as these sorry excuses for humans treat babies.

        • StephanieJR

          I once knew a woman whom took her rabbit to get neutered, and the vet accidentally broke his back legs. I’m pretty sure my reaction to that would have lead to an arrest. I can’t imagine having your baby treated like that.

          (I’m not entirely certain what happened to the vet; but we had a whip round for the bunny and sent him and his sister a load of toys and treats. He got his legs fixed, but sadly died some time later)

  • Mel

    “You know, babies die; it’s part of life. And only those entrenched in the bio-technical model think that that it doesn’t, or shouldn’t happen.”

    The belief that healthy term babies should live through labor and delivery is a feature of modern life, not a bug.

    • Heidi_storage

      I think it’s rather nice that we try to get preemies to survive labor and delivery, too…not to mention mothers with HELLP and such, right?

      • Mel

        Yes, ma’am. 🙂 I will concede that I am biased on that point since I like being alive and find my son to be absolutely delightful.

        My mind is still being boggled that Barrett’s death rate for second-coming twins and breech deliveries was as bad as white, male 26-week preemies with prenatal steroids.

        That’s insane.

        Absolutely freaking insane that a strapping term breech baby boy born at 40 weeks into Barrett’s hands has the same damn chance of death as my pop-bottle sized son did at 26 weeks gestation.

        • Heidi_storage

          It certainly is insane, and tells you a heck of a lot about the value of homebirth midwives like Barrett vs. actual medical professionals with lots of helpful resources at their disposal.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Yes, ma’am. 🙂 I will concede that I am biased on that point since I
          like being alive and find my son to be absolutely delightful.

          Yeah, this is what I notice. They are awfully casual about the deaths of other people’s babies.

          Most of the mothers (and parents) I know are willing to do almost anything to protect the lives of their babies. We hear about those who eschew any sort of prenatal testing. Expecting parents I know and talk to are more to the point of wanting MORE testing with MORE reassurance that all is well. There are those that sneak their own doppler scopes (normally only available through a prescription) so they could check their baby’s heartbeat every day, just to make sure it is ok.

          I mean, even though first semester miscarriage is relatively common (like 1/3, right?) and generally unavoidable, there are still lots of women who are devestated by it. I know a couple who got divorced due to miscarriages (she was devastated, he wasn’t, they couldn’t cope together). Tell these women that there is nothing wrong with some babies dying. Yeah, right.

          The saddest part is when these monsters convince women that it is ok that their babies have died. As I describe it, they have sacrificed their baby at the altar of natural birth. It’s an honorable gesture! Natural birth is their god, and sometimes their god needs a death sacrifice.

          Fuck them and their cult.

          • Sarah

            Give them their due, plenty of them are awfully casual about the deaths of their own babies too. I’ll hear many things against Ina May and Janet Fraser, but let nobody say they took any more care with the welfare of their own kids than they did with anyone else’s.

    • Roadstergal

      She runs together ‘doesn’t’ and ‘shouldn’t’ so airily.
      The whole purpose of ‘shouldn’t’ is to encompass a ‘does’ situation that needs to change.

      They just take ‘does’ and ‘should’ as equated. Childbirth is insanely painful, and therefore it should be. Babies die in childbirth, therefore they should. Actually working to change a bad thing is anathema to their mindset.

  • usually quiet

    “You know, babies die; it’s part of life. And only those entrenched in the bio-technical model think that that it doesn’t, or shouldn’t happen. I have traveled extensively in other countries, mostly developing nations, and people understand this reality elsewhere.”

    That’s odd. My grand mother was a nurse midwife in one of those so-called developing nations. Her work took place with no access to modern drugs or hospital care. She delivered thousands of children during her career, and she grieved every_ single_one that was lost. I also think that she would have been deeply offended by the notion that her countrymen would consider life so cheap.

    Maybe the families Lisa Barrett met did not weep in front of a stranger and a tourist over the death of their children out of a desire to grieve privately. Perhaps they accepted the death of children because they were not offered the choice of life-saving interventions for their child, and not because they had rejected the medical establishment. This is the reality of living in poverty, not the reality of modern childbirth.

  • yugaya

    This Australia independent midwife is defending Lisa Barrett: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=921511518001759&id=148213008664951

    Also fits sociopath description because she describes giving birth to a stillborn baby at home and burying the baby somewhere at her farm as lovely experience, while comparing hospital births to animal slaughter:

    ” The baby died in utero at approximately 6 months of age and I birthed
    it and buried it alone on our farm. It was a calm and easy birth.”

    ” When I was having my babies I noticed a phenomenon that occurred when I went in to the hospital system. In pregnancy and labour you have a heightened sense of smell. Even though I was aware of the dangers of the hospital system but had to go there because a midwife was not
    available, as I entered the smell, had a familiar comfort that was not one of remembered experience ………it is my belief that my long period of time in the hospital was a bonding of that to the system and those in it and has been confirmed by animal husbandry practices on the farm where babies are deliberately separated from their mothers and in their abandonment seek “other mothers” …on a farm it is the farmer who fatten them for slaughter. ……..sometimes the mother does not recognize them, when she is only separated for hours. This research has been well tested in laboratories with rats and mice and by the famous Pavlov experiments of subconscious conditioning. Are obstetricians quietly aware that if they condition women to believe that hospitals are the only safe place to birth that the babies subconsciously will bond too? (A difficult bit of research to undertake!!!!! Who would fund it?)”
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3AyiVb9KGFm0oJ%3Awww.aph.gov.au%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2Fwopapub%2Fsenate%2Fcommittee%2Fclac_ctte%2Fcompleted_inquiries%2F2008_10%2Fhealth_leg_midwives_nurse_practitioners_09%2Fsubmissions%2Findivid%2Fsub636_pdf.ashx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=hu

    • yugaya

      “You can never legislate against human error or incompetence.”

      Yes we can, and that is why Lisa Barrett is now finally facing jail.

    • Madtowngirl

      That is disgusting. And it pisses me off even more that she’s trying to use her religion to justify dead babies. This is why I rarely admit my own beliefs – because of crackpots like this.

      Good on the responses tearing her a new one.

    • Young CC Prof

      So is she that saying that she loves her children so little that a few hours of separation in a hospital can wreck their bond?

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        SO according to her theory if you kid is in the NICU you will never never bond properly and your kid will never love you as much as a homebirth kid will who spends every minute with their mother…

        • Ozlsn

          I had a premmie baby. This magical bonding hour bullshit shits me to tears. I didn’t hold my baby for 12 days, then not again for another 20 days. His father held him for the first time at 33 days. And you know what, he still bonded. Despite being in NICU for nearly 18 months, he still bonded to the point that I joke about never being able to go to the toilet in peace. If Gaye Demanuele hadn’t been so damn busy making sure Caroline Lovell had the magical bonding hour then she might have noticed her bleeding to death in the wading pool – and perhaps her daughter would have had more than one hour of bonding with her mother in total. So. Much. Hate.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I am sorry that you had a difficult time when your baby was bien. I am a preemie mom myself and know how hard it is. And yes, for dime reason my not-held-right-after-delivery son seems to be extremely well bonded to us except when I drop him off at daycare (aka the funniest place in the world). He is so well bonded that when he loses sight of one of us for two seconds he shouts his heart out.

          • Amazed

            It makes me smile every time I read about your son. So happy he’s fine now and thanks for letting us know!

            Amazing Niece (soon will be a year and five months old) only met her father when she was 7 days old. She currently sings Daddydaddydaddydaddy all day long when she isn’t chatting about other things. Last week, they were visiting my mum and while her mum was tying her shoes, she lost sight of Daddydaddydaddydaddy and went back to look for him because he might have chosen to stay with Granny! Very unbound, this one.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            I think the AP toddlers don’t get to actually go through (what i think of as) normal sepration anxiety at 6 or 8 months. I have only my own experience to guess from. Until she was about 7 or 8 months old my daughter didn’t seem to mind all that much when we left but starting then she would have a crying clinging meltdown. She would stop 5 minutes after we left and would be very happy when we returned home. She learned that Mom and Dad sometimes go somewhere but they always return, SHe had great care-takers and she loved them. I think AP moms can tend to teach their toddlers that Mommy is the only source of well anything in life(food, warmth, attention, etc) which probably makes them super clingy for a while.

            Maybe once they are exposed to school and friends and do more with their dads, they learn that other people besides Mom are also sources of food, affection, fun, games and attention.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i dunno. My kids are being raised fairly similarly, except that K1 had all my attention for 2 years and K2 has always had to share. K1’s was super mild, in part because he has only met one stranger he didn’t like. He’s also my snuggle bunny. K2 wants to be near her parents all the time, but doesn’t have to be held all that much. Unless STRANGERS are near. And -everybody- who isn’t mom, dad, or K1 is a scary stranger.

          • Cat

            I do blame AP ideology for scaring mothers into believing that the normal toddler daddy worship phase is evidence that they’ve failed to bond with their child. In my case, it was grandparent worship (in dad’s absence) but I still got quite depressed over my toddler’s failure to demonstrate an exclusive attachment to me, even though the rational part of me recognised that that wasn’t a healthy thing to aspire to. I still worried about the birth, my failure to EBF, babywear, etc etc. I’ve come across other mothers online who seemed to think that a temporary preference for another caregiver means that the kid’s broken and the solution is to have more, have a perfect birth and not let the other parent anywhere near them.

          • Nick Sanders

            They what? That’s scary.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            *hugs* My much younger brother even latched on to me for a while, lol

          • Amazed

            I am happy that unnatural NICU gave you a living baby. And yes, I hate, hate, hate what happened to Caroline Lovell.

          • Ozlsn

            I still can’t believe Demanuele hasn’t been charged yet. It was truly appalling, and so far the only “consequence” has been her voluntarily giving up her registration. Still if SA can get there with Barrett there’s hope the Victorian DPP will as well.

          • Sarah

            I didn’t see one of mine for the first 15 hours. She’s fucking glued to me as we speak, whereas the one I did skin to skin with and breastfed straight away is in the garden on the slide. Thus, being in special care makes kids more bonded. There you go, science.

      • StephanieJR

        Y’know, that happens with bonded pairs of rabbits sometimes, if one goes to the vet and comes back smelling funny and they start fighting.

        Guess what the solution is?

        That’s right, rebonding! I think humans are generally more advanced than bunnies. If they can bond after a seperation, surely we can.

    • Empliau

      She calls her baby born at six months “it”? WTactualF?

    • Roadstergal

      They keep talking about how homebirth is better because it’s more comfortable. And yet, she notes that the hospital made her feel comfortable – and had to spin that into a _bad_ thing.

  • MI Dawn

    Comment posted at Maryn’s site:

    I have a suggestion. How about, you know, *real* training and *real* licensing, the need to keep education current, the need to have the guts to say “I shouldn’t be taking care of this pregnancy” when the mother or baby is at risk. How about malpractice insurance to give money to the families who now have to bury a wife, a mother, a baby. Heck, how about just good standard guidelines? Don’t point to MANA, they don’t have any. Wonder why the ACNM won’t accept lay midwives? Training, education and guidelines.

    I wouldn’t let a “guy who knows about cars” fix my breaks; I want a trained mechanic. I’m putting my life and my children’s lives into his/her hands. I want them to KNOW what they are doing and do it right.

    In the same way, I don’t want someone whose “hobby” is being a midwife. I want someone who freaking knows that I’ve got severe pre-eclampsia (with abnormal symptoms) and gets me into the hospital and induced, with appropriate medications to keep me from seizing and dying, because my body didn’t “KNOW”, at 36 weeks, that it shouldn’t try to kill me.

    • Amazed

      The comment isn’t there. I bet it will never be published.

      • mabelcruet

        Seconded. They exist in their own little echochambers, deleting all comments that don’t show 100% support. Its the same with anti vaxxers, militant lactivists, Big Pharma conspiracy theorists. No debate, no discussion, no criticism of The Message, no contrary opinions allowed.

      • MI Dawn

        That’s why I cross post, any time I say anything that might upset the poor special snowflakes, whether it has to do with DEM or antivaxxers… They can clap their hands over their ears and sing “la la la, I can’t hear you” but the comment is out and this just shows what cowards they are.

    • Chi

      You forgot to mention how malpractice insurance also pays out for babies that live, but are damaged as a result of the birth process.

  • Karen in SC

    North Carolina/South Carolina “midwife” Christine Strothers had a post term death under her care later found to be a homicide by an inquest. She closed the birthing center, as it had been under fire for a few (few!) recent term deaths, but she is still attending homebirths. I witnessed her testimony and she felt no remorse.

    • yugaya

      She is a sociopath too because a T-shirt that she wore to a recent birth had the slogan: “Midwife by day deadly ninja by night”.

      • Wearing a clever shirt does not make one a sociopath.

        • Poogles

          But with it having been found that a post term death under her care was a *homicide* and then wearing a midwifery shirt describing herself as “deadly” (in any context) is pretty questionable at the very least.

          • In poor taste, certainly, but a shirt does not make one a sociopath.

            Her actual actions, however…

        • Sarah

          That’s not a clever shirt.

          • Says… you.

            Sorry for having a sense of humor.

          • Sarah

            You should be apologising for having a shit one. Although I still wouldn’t forgive you.

          • My sense of humour may be dark, but it ain’t “shit”. You’re overreacting to a TSHIRT. If you dislike it, fine, but don’t take your issues out on me.

          • Sarah

            If you think that was funny, then yes your sense of humour is shit. Not dark, just shit. You’re overreacting to being told something you think is funny is actually not. Don’t take your issues with that out on me.

          • And now you’re projecting your overreaction on to me.

            Stop that.

          • Sarah

            I’m afraid the time when you could have complained about overreacting and projecting has been and gone, what with you starting ish because someone pointed out to you that something you think is clever, isn’t.

            It’s ok though. You might have caused this, but I’ll be the one to get the last word.

          • And you’re still going on…. jeez, Sarah, shut up, it’s just a shirt!

          • Sarah

            I’m going on exactly the same amount as you are, since we have made the same number of posts on the matter. If it’s just a shirt and so unimportant to you, you’ll shut up yourself.

          • Go back up and re-read my initial post on the subject.

            You will see that I also said that her actions may well be indicative of sociopathy.

          • Sarah

            Which has nothing to do with whether the t-shirt is funny, whether the sense of humour of anyone who thinks it’s funny is shit, or whether you have no business telling anyone else they’re going on when they have made the same number of posts on the matter as you have.

          • Who?

            I’ve stayed out of this one, but you seem cranky so I’ll pile on.

            The humour in lines like the one that started this exchange is the unlikely, yet somehow entertaining, juxtaposition. So if it was a fluffy kitten by day, ninja by night, that might be funny. Overdone, and not original, true, but funny.

            Because kittens are fluffy and fun but they can scratch you if they want to, or if you annoy them, or for no reason.

            Real midwives are all about life affirmation. And they are far too busy to change uniforms.

            This is rather different from the homebirth hobbyists who kill and injure babies and mothers with arrogant incompetence. They repeatedly and predictably get aggressive to protect their turf from ebil doctors who want to give appropriate medical care. Not so much ninja as murderous lunatic, out in the open for the whole world to see.

            Which is why this ‘joke’ fails.

          • Right, but simply wearing a jokey shirt does not make one a sociopath, which was my original point before Sarah decided to get all high and mighty over it.

          • yugaya

            How about that same midwife who was found guilty of HOMICIDE still attending homebirths, high risk ones included? Or is that also not sociopath enough for you? Maybe it’s just her ( yours too) idea of being “jokey”?

          • I agree, that may be an indication of sociopathy.

            I don’t think anyone here is qualified to make that diagnosis.

          • yugaya

            Oh right. How do YOU prefer we call them then? We sure can legally call Christine Strothers, CPM a killer because she was found guilty of homicide. We can note down that she is happy to wear “jokey” deadly midwife by night tshirts to subsequent (including high risk) homebirths that she is more than happy to attend thus displaying consistency with being dead set on repeating the same homicidal *mistakes* again. We should also acknowledge that she further displays no signs of remorse and is happy to identify herself as “birth junkie” and make a profit while doing that. https://www.carolinabirthjunkies.com/cbj-merchandise

            But yeah, we are not qualified to call her a sociopath. How about a sociopathic killer? Am I allowed to call her that?

          • Killer, yes, as she’s been convicted.

            Sociopath, no, unless you have evidence that she’s been diagnosed as such by a professional.

            You really are overreacting to a simple statement of fact.

          • yugaya

            No she hasn’t been convicted. The death she caused was determined to be manner of death: homicide during a coroner inquest. No criminal charges were filed and there was no criminal trial, so it is a murder for which the killer walks away free.

            You are being petty about shit you are clueless about.

          • You’re projecting again.

            Stick to the FACTS, please, and stop armchair diagnosing people.

          • yugaya

            Says the person clueless about all the facts I’ve presented about the behaviour of this midwife following the deaths over which she presided. Oh yes, did I mention that she has already presided over multiple deaths? But god forbid anyone labels her a sociopath or her behaviour as sociopathic.

            How about you try nitpicking at something you at least know something about in the future?

          • How about you STFU and re-read my initial comment.

            I very clearly said that her behavior may be an indicator of sociopathy.

            Now get over yourself, sweetie — you’re literally throwing a fit over a shirt.

          • yugaya

            I’m throwing a fit? You are qualified to armchair diagnose like that?

            Jeeesus.

          • Who?

            There’s also a difference between a joke in bad taste, and just plain bad taste, which is what that tshirt is, in context.

          • Yeah, the shirt was in poor taste, obviously.

            But making a joke in poor taste is not an indication of sociopathy.

            Why are you all so determined to engage in armchair diagnosis when none of you are qualified?

          • yugaya

            Overreacting to a shirt that says “deadly ninja by night” being worn to another birth by midwife who was found guilty of HOMICIDE death of baby Daxton, who was born to die due to her negligence during night?

            http://www.honestmidwife.com/daxtons-father-testifies/

          • Over. Reacting.

            All I said was that a jokey shirt doesn’t indicate sociopathy, and you and Sarah got all up on your high horses and started flinging insults immediately, rather than considering that maybe, just maybe, I have a point.

            Grow up.

          • rosewater1

            It’s been considered. And you don’t. At least not the point you’re trying to make.

            At the very least she is guilty of poor taste in clothing. Given the circumstances…if that is her idea of a joke…she may well be a sociopath.

            I have a dark sense of humor. And I don’t find her shirt one bit funny.

            Your comments show a real lack of sensitivity and compassion.

            And before you respond with some version of “they started it!”…don’t. Just don’t. You made a choice to respond as you did.

          • You’ll also note, please, that I never said I thought it was funny.

            I simply made a statement of fact and was attacked for it.

          • Who?

            What a powerful need to be right.

          • You’re directing that at the wrong person, honey.

            I’m not the one sitting here insisting I can diagnose someone as a sociopath based solely on a shirt.

          • Who?

            Not sure the tshirt was the critical factor. Could even be a red herring, or perhaps a random distraction.

            But hey, pick on the triva, that’s fine. Helps with misdirection from the point of the article, which is that homebirth hobbyists are bad folk to buddy up to, particularly if you are pregnant and want to give yourself, and your baby, the best chance of what most of us would consider an optimal outcome ie everyone alive, with minimal damage to brains and other organs or body parts.

          • Heidi_storage

            Hey now, everyone, let’s not forget we’re all fellow shills of the pharmaceutical/medical industry! (Or possible sockpuppets.) Let’s not endanger our precious hive-mind, echo chamber rapport over a shirt!

          • Nuh uh. I’m out, if people are going to go on the attack for making factual statements.

            Now please, somebody provide evidence of this person’s alleged sociopathy. Not your opinions. Actual evidence, as in, show me where, in her medical records, she has been diagnosed as a sociopath.

            If you can’t do that, STFU.

          • rosewater1

            Make sure to stick your flounce.

            And YOU seem to be getting plenty upset yourself.

            Oh, and you used clever as a synonym for jokey? Well, aren’t you just a precious little thing.

          • Upset? Nah. Annoyed. And outta here, because you all completely FAIL at logic and reading comprehension.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a30494ac29f47a7d648749b8f1e7ca8ea09c628883f404ab07adaa0dd6a546fb.jpg

          • MaineJen

            “Nuh uh!” “Yeah huh!” What are you, five?

          • Heidi_storage

            Oh, I’m certainly not arguing the point one way or another; just trying to inject a little levity into the discussion. (Maybe that wasn’t such a good idea considering that the whole argument began over whether a t-shirt is funny, not funny, or evidence of sociopathy. Oops, sorry.)

            I have enjoyed so many comments from you, and from Yugaya, and from others on this forum. It just seems a shame that this particular thread has caused so much acrimony, regardless of who’s right in the matter.

          • I’m tired of being treated like the bad guy.

          • rosewater1

            Yes, poor you. It must have sucked to make that statement and then face the consequences.

            And no, you didn’t say that you thought it was funny. You thought it was clever. That’s ever so much better.

          • “Clever” was used as a synonym for “jokey”.

            Please just get over yourselves, already. You’re literally throwing a fit over a simple statement of fact.

    • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

      She’s still active apparently: https://www.carolinabirthjunkies.com/

      Note the name.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    You know, babies die; it’s part of life. And only those entrenched in the bio-technical model think that that it doesn’t, or shouldn’t happen.

    Yeah, crazy isn’t it. Thinking that babies shouldn’t have to die if we can help it.

    Forgive me for not being willing to sacrifice my kids at the altar of natural birth.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    There is no soul-searching, no root-cause analysis. The death is dismissed with a callous, “Some babies are meant to die.” or “Babies die in the hospital, too.”

    This always reminds me of the movie MASH

    Duke Forrest:

    Dammit, Henry, Frank Burns is a menace! Every time a patient croaks on him he says it’s “God’s will” or somebody else’s fault.

  • mabelcruet

    That Maryn is just as bad-Barrett is being prosecuted for causing the death of babies, she’s not being persecuted for supporting women. If she wanted to support women, she should have done her job professionally and safely, and not played fast and loose with babies lives. Maryn’s blog is a disgraceful example of two-faced sociopathy-pretending to be caring for women on the one hand, whilst merrily slaughtering innocents on the other and taking no responsibility for it whatever. Evil bitches, evil.

  • Cody

    “…a hobby…” Who considers midwifery a hobby?! Don’t answer this question. I don’t want to know.

    • Madtowngirl

      Sewing is my hobby. I guess that makes me qualified to stitch up patients!

      • LaMont

        I suppose that if we’re in a war zone together and I need something stitched up ASAP, I’d come to you over a rando. Other than that, I’m afraid I need to go with the fancy doctor people. Depending on what rate you’re offering, of course 😉

        • Roadstergal

          If you don’t like her rates, suture self. 🙂

  • LaMont

    Wait, only sheeple think the *death of healthy term infants* SHOULDN’T HAPPEN? Yeah, I’d be okay with people continuing to struggle to make sure that never happens. There are things where “close enough” is fine. Here, I’d be okay with spending energy and resources making sure that doesn’t happen. Ever.

    I’m having another Vorkosigan Saga moment, recalling Cordelia’s comment about how Barrayaran women must have felt so strange about their pregnancies, “not knowing if there was life or death at the end of them.” Of course, Barrayar would be ideal for these murderer midwives – only the strong survive!

  • mabelcruet

    Just how stupid is she? Is she getting any legal advice at all, or does she believe herself to be immune from any adverse action (her comment about thinking it had ‘blown over’ is telling). Surely this is contempt of court, or a breech of her bail conditions? They just seem to exist in their own little bizarroworld echochamber, don’t they? Completely outside a normal frame of reference and behaviour.

    • Sarah

      She’s probably legally advising herself.

      • moto_librarian

        Her “attorney” probably practices law as a hobby.

        • KQ Not Signed In

          Dang it, you beat me to it.

        • Amazed

          I wish but alas, this isn’t likely.

      • mabelcruet

        I looked up the book linked in the post ‘From Calling to Courtroom-A midwives survival guide’. It gives advice on what to do if you’re arrested. It says specifically you must have an attorney. That attorneys spend at least 6 years in law school and years developing their expertise, and you absolutely cannot do this (defend yourself) without one. Honestly, there’s a whole chapter about it.

        So how come they recognise the expertise, training and experience of lawyers, but think that you can become a professional midwife by watching half a dozen births and doing classes in aura channelling, laying on of hands and navel gazing?

        • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

          Cuz birth is Natural and midwives are just there to “catch” babies coming Earthside! NO need to know how to do proper newborn resus or admit that some women’s pregnancies are beyond one’s skills to safely deliver!

          • mabelcruet

            Ugh, you’ve just triggered a particularly nauseating memory. Sheena Byrom once twittered some drivel about how it is said that when a woman labours, her spirit leaves her body to travel to the stars to usher her baby’s soul to the world. And then all her mother goddess wymym power followers starting agreeing they were all beacons of love and light to help guide new life into being.

            Thanks a bunch, InnerCrone!

          • KQ Not Signed In

            I read this like four times but I swear all I my brain took in was BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH PINK FLUFFY UNICORNS DANCING ON RAINBOWS

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Sorry!!! They just make me so mad it’s either be snarktastic or cry. There are so many women in my family and my husbands family that would either have dead/damaged babies or who would be dead themselves without modern obstetrics and advances in neonatal medicine and to these people, birth is too “medicalized” it’s like saying dental medicine and orthodontics are too medicalized, we should just let peoples teeth rot naturally and not fill cavities cuz they’re “natural” No one needs braces, if you can’t eat properly or close your mouth due to severe over bite or something oh well, too bad for you some teeth were just meant to rot.

          • Empliau

            Before I stopped (for reasons of spending time with what remains of my sanity) reading mothering dot com, I saw post after post either asking how to heal, or claiming to have healed, cavities and regrow enamel *naturally*. I think bone broth figured largely in these thrilling accounts, although my memory is hazy due to the headdesking.

          • Mel

            I never went through labor with my son so does that mean he doesn’t have a soul?

            I mean, we got him baptized, but since he was so tiny the priest did a shortened version that omitted the normal exorcism just before the baptism so we know that he’s still got a smallish demon*. But we figured he just came with a soul.

            We can all make up our own mythologies; I prefer mine to be harmless to women and children.

            *Well, it started as an imp. It’s a demon now. If it gets to be a gremlin, we might see about having a welcoming ceremony that includes giving godparents and that exorcism he missed. But Damien has been a nice addition to the family and we’ll miss him when he’s gone so as long as he obeys the basic rule that he only gets the body when Spawn’s asleep, we’ll keep him.

          • Amazed

            If Amazing Niece is a reliable indicator, Damien will stay at least until all the teeth are safely visible. Hmm, perhaps that’s the explanation why I still feel the green demon taking a hold of me when I have a headache AND I have forgotten to buy coffee in advance. I never cut two fifth teeth. Currently in braces to make room and acquire science ones. But does it mean that my Damien will leave?

            Anyway, I think you can keep yours. He’ll be helpful for the times you think your teething child has turned into a demon.

          • mabelcruet

            If the demon apparates when they’re teething, what is it that materialises during the Terrible Twos’? Beelzebub?

          • Who?

            My little sample of two is that the permanently slightly grumpy person (now aged 25) sailed through nappy rash and teething no trouble, but the sunnier child (now 22) was miserable with both.

            Their temperaments remain unchanged, he puts up with a lot without more grumbling than usual, she is generally cheerful but quite finely balanced. She has gained some equanimity in recent years, but the basic positions hold.

          • Sarah

            Ew.

          • Roadstergal

            That’s a pretty shitty way to describe being out of your mind with pain.

        • Karen in SC

          Because Planet NCB is aka as the Planet of Infinite Irony and Hypocrisy.

  • MI Dawn

    I might leave a comment on Maryn’s blogpost. But if I do, I’ll also take bets as to how long it’s left up there. She only mentions if babies die, people want to know why (though she puts it that people want someone to BLAME…of course, we want to blame the midwife who didn’t act properly and screws all the GOOD midwives). Then a commenter actually has the guts to be callous, indeed – she’s more concerned about the midwifes than the “let one baby die and the axe falls”….

    • MI Dawn

      Comment left today. Let’s see if it stays.

  • MichLaw

    Maryn Green wrote, “It’s enough to scare most people from even considering midwifery as a hobby.” What kind of health care provider considers their work a hobby? That says it all for me.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Even people who garden for a hobby show more sadness when their marigolds die than that.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        “Some flowers weren’t meant to live.”

  • moto_librarian

    “We see our sister midwives being hunted, being chased, searched, thrown in jail, their phones being tapped. It’s enough to scare most people from even considering midwifery as a hobby, much less a full time passion.”

    You know, very little shocks me from the NCB camp anymore, but this turn of phrase from Maryn Green is jaw-dropping. Being a healthcare practitioner isn’t a “hobby.” I think it’s important to be passionate about your work, but I’m equally uncomfortable with the idea of midwifery being a “full time passion” as well. You are responsible for the lives of women and babies. The idea that this could ever be considered a “hobby” is unbelievably ignorant and callous.

    • Comrade X

      It’s incredible, isn’t it? Like I could just wake up one morning, watch a coupl’a YouTube videos and decide that Open Heart Surgery was going to be my new “hobby” and that anyone who tried to stop me practicing my hobby was oppressing me. Like, what???

      • Ozlsn

        But if you’re an open heart surgery junkie should anyone be allowed to stop you? I mean, it’s your calling, your passion, your need to be seen as a wonderful heroic saviour, and hey, if a few people die, well they were going to anyway, right? I mean who can know when someone will die of septicemia, right? Those years of training only make you a tool of the capitalist medical system when true open heart surgeons use intuition and healing energies to channel the warrior within the patient for a truly transformative experience. /sarcasm

        I’m starting to think I should set up shop, that was fun.

    • mabelcruet

      And the sheer guff about there should be no criminalization of midwives, regardless of outcome. These women would be the first to scream obstetric violence and rape if an obstetrician did an episotomy or a vaginal examination, they would be demanding the medic got chucked in prison, throw away the key. And yet they think they can preside over the manslaughter of a perfectly healthy innocent baby and there not be any investigation?

      Doctors are held to a higher standard of behaviour than lay people-doctors have been referred to the General Medical Council and struck off, prevented from practising medicine-for ‘crimes’ unrelated to patient care, like being drunk in public, or getting banned from driving because of speeding, or public indecency, like exposing themselves in public. This is because it shows a reckless disregard for the rule of law and brings the good name of the profession into disrepute. The GMC don’t care if you’re the best surgeon in the world-if you wave your willy at someone, you’re out. But these women think that manslaughter should be ignored? That killing a baby should be ignored and not investigated?

      Mistakes happen-and in the medical world, and the professional nursing midwifery world, these are investigated and analysed and hopefully learnt from and improvements made and retribution dealt as needed. But these birth hobbyists think they should be given a bye? They can slaughter a few babies and think they should be allowed to carry on because they are ‘supporting women’? No, you’re not supporting women. And if you carry on knowing you can’t do the job properly, knowingly destroying families and killing babies by your hopelessly poor standards, that makes it deliberate murder, not manslaughter.