Autism, bleach and pre-rational beliefs about illness

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Yesterday I came across one of the most appalling examples of medical child abuse that I have ever read.

[pullquote align=”right” cite=”” link=”” color=”” class=”” size=””]Dosing an autistic child with bleach is the modern day equivalent of beating the demons out of her.[/pullquote]

Hi everyone I NEED HELP!

My daughter is 7 years old been on cd [chlorine dioxide: bleach] for 4.5 months and began her third pp [parasite protocol] this month. A week ago I began double dosing because she hits her head and gets irritated when her little sister speaks loudly, which causes her to want to head butt her.

I did 38 drops a couple of days ago and she seemed fine and my husband, forgetting, gave her 36 drops on the first day of pp. So yesterday I did 38 drops and she kept going to bathroom and refused to eat. I was a little concerned when she didn’t want to finish her lunch and kept and eye on her.

When dinner time came, I have her mebendazole [anti-parasite medication] she started gagging so I gave her some almond milk and had her sit on the couch. After 5 minutes I gave her her late bite of dinner and not eneve a minute passed when she threw everything up…

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Yes, this woman is dosing her autistic daughter with BLEACH. Why? Because a quack declared that autism is caused by parasites and that ingesting bleach and bleach enemas can kill those parasites. This was posted in a Facebook group that has thousands of members dedicated to treating autism with bleach.

You don’t need to be a physician to know that bleach is toxic and these parents are literally poisoning her daughter. This is the worst kind of medical child abuse imaginable and sadly her ignorant parents are abusing her not because they don’t care about her but because they do. They, like many people who lived before the existence of science, are laboring under pre-rational beliefs about health and illness. They are following in a long tradition of ascribing psychiatric and neurological illness to demons and seeking to drive the demons out. They’ve just dressed it up with the thinnest veneer of science, calling the demons parasites and poisoning the child to drive them out instead of beating her or burning her.

Human beings love stories. They tell stories to remember, stories to teach and stories to explain. Prior to the advent of science, there was often no way to explain illness — particularly neurological and psychiatric illnesses — and stories of demonic possession were often invoked. It seemed the perfect explanation for otherwise health individuals behaving in strange ways. Not surprisingly, since suffers were perceived to be invaded by demons, the “cure” involved driving demons out.

Such immature cognitive errors — ascribing disease to paranormal phenomena — are understandable in the absence of science, but, tragically, many people revert to these immature cognitive errors when confronting diseases for which the scientific explanation is still incomplete. Autism is such a disease and many parents are still in the grip of pre-rational beliefs about it.

Poisoning autistic children with bleach to drive out the parasites is only the worst of these pre-rational beliefs. Though vaccine-refusing and vaccine-hesitant parents boast that their “research” shows that vaccines cause autism, this is just another thin scientific veneer over the pre-rational belief that autistic children have been possessed by demons; in this case the demons are vaccines. And for some parents, driving out the demons involves spending vast amounts of money on useless “detoxing” treatments. Vaccine refusal and hesitancy aren’t the result of being educated; they’re the result of being superstitious.

Psychiatric and neurological illnesses like autism aren’t caused by demons — whether those demons are paranormal beings, parasites or vaccines — and therefore they can’t be treated by beating demons out of children or killing parasites and they can’t be prevented by refusing vaccines. Those practices are nothing more than medical abuse and neglect.

  • paminap

    what kind of “MD” doesn’t know the difference between ‘bleach’ (~3-6% sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), + small amounts of sodium hydroxide, hydrogen peroxide, and calcium hypochlorite) and chlorine dioxide (sodium chlorite + acid)? A fraud.

    • MaineJen

      “Chlorine dioxide is used as a bleach at pulp mills, which make paper and paper products, and in public water-treatment facilities, to make water safe for drinking. It has also been used to decontaminate public buildings…The EPA has set the maximum concentration in the drinking water at 0.8 milligrams per liter (mg/L) for chlorine dioxide and 1.0 mg/L for chlorite ion…If you were to eat or drink large amounts of chlorine dioxide or chlorite, you might experience irritation in the mouth, esophagus, or stomach. Most people will not be exposed to chlorine dioxide or chlorite in amounts large enough to damage other parts of the body, but if you were, you might experience shortness of breath and other respiratory problems because of damage to the substances in blood that carry oxygen throughout the body.”

      https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=580&tid=108

      How high do you think the concentration of chlorine dioxide is in the bodies of these children whose parents give them 38 DROPS of the stuff at each “treatment?” (Hint: a lot damn higher than 0.8mg/L)

      • PeggySue

        MaineJen is totally right. Totally.

    • Karen in SC

      Both those solutions contain sodium ions and hypochlorite ions, with the hypochlorite being the oxidizer in commercial bleach.

    • Who?

      What kind of parent submits their child to enemas of bleach? What kind of ‘medical’ adviser advises such quackery, and lauds the subsequent mucous discharge as worms?

      The cruel kind.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      A rose by any other name smells as sweet. Don’t put roses up your kid’s butt either. Enemas do NOT cure autism. Enemas are NOT a substitute for vaccination. etc.

  • The Vitaphone Queen

    I know, this is old, but AUTISTIC RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!

    • It’s worth repeating, as every now and again we get parachuters who demonstrate contempt for autistic people and clearly regard them as subhuman.

      • The Vitaphone Queen

        My 2018 New Year’s resolution is to join the Autistic Self Advocacy Network. They have a chapter in my area.

  • Vasiliki Vasiliki

    This goes for the people that believe that autism and other diseases can be cured with bleach etc: If you have any children and force the “treatment” on them, I pray that you have your children taken away from you. I think that government across the planet should make this “treatment”, illegal and it should also considered child abuse and child endangerment. You obviously have the mentality of a nazi back in the 1940’s when they would commit atrocities against people with disabilities in the concentration camps. You should be arrested and thrown into a dark dark hole or better yet I do hope that your children realize what you are doing to them and to their bodies and do the same thing to you as it is torture.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Please STOP posting “rabbit facts.” It’s a juvenile response and it clogs up the comment sections with nonsense.

  • Seeing Clearly Media

    Autism is nothing to be proud of, you are not autistic you have autism autism is a wall trapping the real you.

    • Mishimoo

      Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

    • Nick Sanders

      I’m not “proud” of autism any more than I’m proud of brown hair. It’s not trapping the real me, it’s part of the real me.

      Get over yourself and stop thinking you know us better than we know ourselves.

      • Gatita

        Most of the autistic people I know are pretty cool, though. Maybe not something to be proud of but super interesting to see the world from their perspective.

    • Azuran

      Thats just really stupid. Thats like saying ‘you are not blind, you have blindness’
      Having autism makes you autistic. Just like having blindness makes you blind.
      And autism is mainly genetic, saying that autism is a wall trapping the real you is like saying that down syndrome is a wall trapping the real you. The real you is autistic just as the real me is hypermetrope.

      • Valerie

        There are subtle differences in ways that people talk about disabilities that make it more respectful discourse. One of those (controversial) bits of etiquette is to put the person before the condition (eg children with autism vs autistic children). I think that’s what OP was getting at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language

        • Heidi

          I think you give OP too much credit.

          • Valerie

            Yeah, I did! Horrendous.

        • And most disabled people abhore this practice as it erases our identities and experiences.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I won’t disagree with this, but the child Azuran was talking to did not mean this. The kid is an ablist.
            That said, my husband usually says “I’m blind” rather than “I have a visual impairment,” as a kind of shorthand. Having hung out with the guy for 21 years, I tend to as well.

          • I’ve been reading down thread with my jaw hanging open that it’s possible for a kid to be so uneducated and ignorant in the 21st century.

          • William Mclaughlan

            Years ago this condition, like Turettes did not even exist, where did they both come from ?Now there are tons of syndromes and conditions.

          • Years ago people often simply died of conditions we now often take for granted because there were no treatments.
            Others were kept away from the general populace in institutions because they were “different” and their families may have felt shame. Now most of society has moved on and no longer shame people or their families for disabilities or health conditions. Just a few small minded bigots still wish to place blame on people, their families or their actions or question the medical advances which help everyone.

          • William Mclaughlan

            Thank You for ecplaining

          • Dr Kitty

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6-phosphate_dehydrogenase_deficiency

            This is an interesting case in point.
            The Ancient Greeks knew some men got very sick and even died if they ate Fava beans. They didn’t know why, assuming it was a judgement by the gods, or that beans were unclean, or that beans were taboo for men.

            Now we know it’s G6PD- an X-linked genetic condition that trades off improved survival from malaria with increased chances of suffering haemolytic anaemia triggered by various things, one of which is eating a lot of Fava beans.

            In the same way it is probable that all of the “new” syndromes and conditions (Gender dysphoria, Tourette’s, Autism etc) have been present for millennia, but have been framed differently by the dominant culture (insanity, demonic possession, a gift from the gods, shamanic powers, moral turpitude, imbecility etc- whatever was in style at the time).

          • Roadstergal

            It’s shocking! It’s just like how all these planets came into being once telescopes were invented!

          • Dr Kitty

            Years ago there were lots of witches and people who spoke in tongues or communed with the devil or who were possessed by evil spirits.

            Where did they all go?

            Perhaps the emergence of syndromes and conditions along with the massive reduction in rates of demonic possession and witchcraft might be correlated in some way?

            The fact that modern democratic countries no longer routinely execute and torture “witches” and “the possessed”may also be relevant.

            Who can say?

          • kilda

            Tourette’s was first described in the medical literature in 1825.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Your neurotypicality is a wall trapping the real you. If only there were a cure!

    • momofone

      Autism is nothing to be ashamed of. Willful ignorance is.

    • Roadstergal

      Still waiting for you to tell me, in your own words, what a biomarker is.

      • I’m not getting any responses at all from newbabytroll. Apparently being openly atheist makes me anathema.

    • StephanieJR

      Congratulations, buddy, like a cockroach you keep coming back, and I am the rolled up newspaper of Rabbit Facts!

      Did you know that rabbits can be easily litter trained? They like to go in the same place, so with a litter tray, some patience and a little time, they can get the point and control their toilet habits. The tray can be lined with bunny safe litter, or newspaper.

      Did you also know that rabbits are quite clean animals, but they often have a strange definition of tidy? They just love to rearrange things into a messy state.

      And guess who needs her cage cleaned tomorrow? That’s right, Amy! And guess who’s going to print out your comments and give them to her rabbit to piss and shit on? That’s right, me! That’s all that your words are worth. That is the level of contempt I hold for you.

      To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, finally fuck off to whatever wretched hive you came from.

      • *ahem* Wretched hive of scum and villainy, please.

    • demodocus

      You are not grammatically incorrect; you have incorrect grammar.

  • Russell Jones

    A few years back I learned about some huckster named Jim Humble, an ex-Scientologist who claims to be a billion-year-old god from the Andromeda galaxy and sells bleach as a cure for cancer, autism, etc. Ingesting the bleach (or shoving it up the backside of an autistic child) is a “sacrament” in Humble’s religion. It’s almost as though he was trying to set up a First Amendment defense to any prosecution arising out of injury or death from using his product.

    It’s all quite lulzy, until a story like this highlights the ghastly truth that there are in fact parents desperate and/or stupid enough to buy into this garbage.

    • > It’s almost as though he was trying to set up a First Amendment defense to any prosecution arising out of injury or death from using his product.

      That is literally the point.

      • Russell Jones

        Yes, I know. The “It’s almost as though” statement was a lame attempt at sarcasm on my part. 🙂

        It’s worth noting that the defense in question ultimately wasn’t enough for Jim Humble, who last I heard had left the U.S. and was living like a king in some banana republic where “extradition” is just a funny American word.

  • Seeing Clearly

    If you are part of the autism pride cult do not lecture anyone on autism because what you are really lecturing people is not about autism, but rather it’s about pride and we have too much of that pride in the world as it is we don’t need more.

    If you are anti-cure disclose your bias of you are pro-cure disclose your bias I am pro-cure because I don’t believe in illness or defects.

    • Nick Sanders

      Fuck right off and go away already.

      • Seeing Clearly

        I don’t embrace your offended spectrum disorder, go see someone who knows how to cure you.

        • momofone

          But according to you, that would be you.

          • Seeing Clearly

            I haven’t demonstrated offended spectrum disorder

            Signs of offended spectrum disorder include profanity, trolling or distracting off topic comments and hypocrisy or saying I am bad and you are better for being a certain way when you yourself is that way as well and more.

          • momofone

            You have claimed to know best what should happen and to whom, what is righteous and unrighteous, what is pride and what is humility.

            Now that I have a sense of your age, that makes sense; in high school it’s typical for people to have a sense that they know exactly how to solve problems, even–maybe especially–those others have tried to solve for generations. You may indeed be someone who figures out those things, but not now, and not until you can entertain lines of thinking other than your own and approach your own beliefs and perspectives critically, which you are not currently doing. For future reference, though, “common sense” is never an acceptable response to a request for evidence. It’s important to be able to support your own claims, and if you can’t, or if your best support is “common sense,” you need to re-evaluate those claims.

    • momofone

      You think in terms of “anti” or “pro” because you haven’t the mental flexibility to think in any way that isn’t black and white.

      Thank goodness for your self-avowed humility; I don’t know how you’d stand yourself without it.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      There is no cure. There are work arounds but there is no cure. And for the love of little green apples, it certainly is NOT bleach enemas.

      • Seeing Clearly

        Just because we don’t have the knowledge or resources or dedication or commitment to curing people who have medical induced disabilities like autism doesn’t mean a cure is not possible now I am not saying the cure would be bleach however all data indicates lifestyle and environment and health go hand with hand.

        • Who?

          What medical act or omission induces autism?

          What are the ‘medical induced disablilities like autism’ to which you refer?

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          Autism happens in the womb, and tends to run in families. Lifestyle be damned.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Which data would those be? Perhaps you’d care to share some citations to back your claim?

        • Nick Sanders

          There is nothing “induced” about autism, medical or otherwise.

        • Charybdis

          Medical induced disabilities? How do you define such? What is on that list, if you don’t mind sharing your infinite wisdom?

          • Seeing Clearly

            Medical disabilities are disabilities caused by a medical cause.

            That was very obvious is that how brain dead the population has become?

            Thank you for asking even if it wasn’t very polite.

          • Charybdis

            Redundant imbecile is redundant. Let’s have an example of a “medically induced disability”, not just a definition of the words themselves.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            One does not define a word by using that word. If you need help, I recommend the Encyclopedia Brittanica

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t you hate Humpty Dumptys?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            More like mildly irritated, though I’m sure I’d be a lot more irritated to have this chit in -my- classroom.

          • Heidi_storage

            Upvoted for Alice reference.

        • StephanieJR

          Congratulations, I’m back with more insults and Rabbit Facts!

          Did you know that rabbits are quite adaptable, and can conquer various environments? They are more tolerant of cold than of heat.

          You don’t seem to be tolerant of anything, really. Not tolerant of people different than you; of people smarter than you; of people more mature than you; of people disabled or gay or just plain different. Intolerant and prejudiced and bigoted. Don’t forget self righteous.

          Well, who the fuck died and left you in charge? Who appointed you the arbiter of all that is supposed to be? Who decided that some snot nosed little brat with shit for brains was the one to lecture us all on how to treat other people?

          You must be on the highest horse I ever did see. Mighty big horse, mighty big fall. Just you wait and see.

          I wonder, what’s going to happen when your parents grow old and fall ill? When age wears down their bodies and their minds, will you gleefully encourage them towards quack cures that could kill them, or will you shut them away in a horrible home to forget about them? Once they are past certain abilities, do you erase their worth and existence, too?

          And, although I am not quite mean enough to wish it on you, what if, one day, you fall ill or are in an accident, and you become disabled? There are no guarantees in life. Anything could happen at anytime, and no lifestyle choices or healthy diet or prayer can change that.

          Child, cease your babbling and listen. You may actually learn something.

        • Eater of Worlds

          You sound like those Republicans who said that if people took care of themselves, they wouldn’t have pre-existing conditions and they wouldn’t have to worry about affording insurance that covers that.

          You’re saying that lifestyle determines your health. Which it can, but so many illnesses and disabilities happened for reasons beyond your control. You sound as stupid and as mean as those GOPs who were trying to deny healthcare to the sick and to women.

        • rosewater1

          Medically induced? Says who?

    • StephanieJR

      Congratulations, I’m back to offend you with more Rabbit Facts!

      Did you know that rabbits sleep up to eight hours a day, usually as hour long naps? They can also sleep with their eyes open. They are most active during the morning and the evening, when there is less predators around.

      Did you also know that I really fucking hate you, you vile twatbucket? And that I’m having fun hunting you down and pissing you off, because the more I make you lose control, the more you reveal your true nature, the less likely anyone sees you as anything less than a self righteous, egocentric, bigoted sack of shit.

      I love watching you throw a tantrum and toss your toys out of the pram. The more you shout, the less sense you make.

      Your position was already weak; continue to spiral. It’s fun.

      • namaste863

        woo hoo! Keep em coming!!!!!

      • Seeing Clearly

        I am an ablist in the sense that I favor ability not disability, I am pro-cure in the sense that I don’t believe in accepting an issue or illness I like to make things right you know fixing things.

        I am not ashamed to disclose my values, it is part of being transparent.

        I don’t believe in discrimination of people who are afflicted by disability, however people who are proudly disabled I see as an abomination to be pitiful against.

        I think what you are doing is very wicked, you have shown your true colors you are full of hatred against people that hold different values than you and instead of having a productive conversation on why we value what we do you spam me and troll me and worse yet, you acutely are proudly doing it it is shameful on your behalf and I think you owe me an apology I most likely will not receive.

        Again I don’t support discrimination against someone for something they can’t control, but if you can control it and it’s your will to be disabled just know I don’t concent to paying your welfare.

        • StephanieJR

          Congratulations, you prove my point by immediately jumping on the defensive. You clearly are an ableist, but I never said that; so you do you, buddy, and keep on showing your true colours.

          Did you know that rabbits can be very affectionate? They really are so sweet, snuggling and grooming each other. I hit the jackpot with Amy; she loves to cuddle, will sit and lick my hands for ages, and has even fallen asleep in my arms. Aww.

          I don’t think you could get a rabbit to be affectionate with you. I bet they’d run away from you in fear. They know better.

          • Seeing Clearly

            I defined ablism as embracing ability not disability, the original google definition is discrimination against disabled people.

            There is a difference in the two.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You don’t get to define the word. It already has a definition: Ableism – a set of practices and beliefs that assign inferior value (worth) to people who have developmental, emotional, physical or psychiatric disabilities.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          You’re right about us not apologizing for thinking you are a grade-A jerk.

          When a minority group says they are proud to be themselves, they’re really saying “You cannot make us feel ashamed to be who we happen to be”.

          My husband is not especially “proud” to be blind nor am I about being “deaf” but we sure as hell don’t appreciate some fool telling us we ought to be ashamed to not be chasing every quack nostrum some jerk comes up with.

          Go away, you prejudiced git.

        • MaineJen

          ” people who are proudly disabled I see as an abomination to be pitiful against”

          That’s horrendous.

          Here’s the thing, doll: we are under no obligation to respect or tolerate beliefs or values that are actively harmful.

    • Heidi_storage

      So do you have any relatives on the spectrum?

      • Se Clearly

        Knowing the rate of autism is 1 in 45 or worse what do you expect me to be an outsider?

        • Heidi_storage

          But I’d really like to know.

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        I don’t have any genetic relatives on the spectrum. My cousin is technically my step-cousin, though we don’t make the distinction usually.

        • Heidi_storage

          Oops, I meant to ask our high school guest. Disqus fail!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            🙂 I knew that. I was just noting that it does happen from time to time. Our high school guest probably misses quite a lot.

          • StephanieJR

            And I actually have a few on my grandmother’s side; some nieces, nephews, grand nieces and nephews, second cousins, and most closely related, potentially (I don’t think it’s been confirmed yet due to other family dramas) my uncle’s granddaughter.

    • namaste863

      Sigh. Silly child. I think you will find as you grow older is that part of becoming an adult is discovering that you understand far, far less than you think you do.

    • proudaspie

      So by pride you mean demanding to be treated like equal people, not disease ridden freaks? Because that is all you are painting me and mine as – people who are diseased and too stupid to know that we need help from saviors like you.

      Guess what, asshole? I spent YEARS in therapy because of people like you. I had no self esteem, was suicidal and was hitting myself and almost removed myself from this mortal coil twice. Friends and family managed to find me in time and rush me to the hospital. I found mentors, went to one of the top rated public universities in the country, and have led an incredibly successful life. Which I know pisses you off because you’d rather have us all dead because we don’t fit what you call perfect. You make me sick.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Please stop clogging the feed with nonsense.

  • StephanieJR

    Yay!

    I shall send you some bunny kisses; Amy has plenty to spare.

    It’s like being gently tapped by a warm, wet sponge.

  • mabelcruet

    There is a book listed on Amazon about this, called ‘Healing the Symptoms known as Autism’ by a total loon. The reviews are…well, read the reviews. Apparently autism is caused by chronic Lyme disease and bleach cures that as well, and its no more harmful than drinking lemon juice in lemonade. So, autism is actually congenital infection with Borrelia burgdorferi. Glad that’s clear.

    • Chi

      Kerri Riviera right? She really IS a complete whack-a-doodle.

      What’s also very insidious is the way they refer to autism. They call it a symptom, meaning it’s part of a larger ‘disease’. And even people who still go to doctors know that a lot of the time, especially in viral diseases, doctors recommend things to control symptoms, thus symptoms can be managed and even ‘cured’.

      Which of course is their whole marketing ploy. “Doctors don’t know what causes it but WE do and we CAN cure it.” When really all they’re doing is basically poisoning poor children to the point where they don’t have the energy for their ‘abnormal’ behaviours and thus are considered ‘cured’.

      Not to mention that parents who subscribe to this bullshit are ALSO more likely to have their autistic kids on extremely restrictive diets to ‘heal’ their guts which means the poor babies are already malnourished so I can’t imagine what it’s like drinking this shit and having it shoved up their asses daily.

      I am so sad and so angry right now. The thought of doing something like this to my daughter makes me physically ill. What is WRONG with people????

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      But…I was born in Louisiana. How did I get congenital Lyme disease in a state where it isn’t endemic? Not to mention why didn’t the dozen or so antibiotic courses I’ve taken throughout my life kill it?

  • Mishimoo

    I hate that this is even a thing, it is very obviously child abuse and it should not be happening. Autistic kids and people are not changlings; no amount of torture will bring them ‘back’, and it is absurd that people still buy into that narrative instead of accepting their children as people.

    It’s not just autism either – my brother-in-law has Crohn’s Disease and a natural health practitioner tried to convince him to ‘detox’ with this wonderful supplement that will cure him! You just add MMS to water, and slowly increase the dosage. Remember: “The stronger the metallic taste in your mouth, the more toxins are coming out! Bloody stool just means it’s working well!” Oh, and of course she was very friendly and caring, with plenty of other things to sell him so that he doesn’t undo the detox…

    • MI Dawn

      Yes, this MMS protocol is what they are doing.

    • Seeing Clearly

      @Mishimoo

      In regards to accepting your child for who they are, by labeling them autistic you are already not accepting your child for who they are and by accepting a child as being autistic it makes matters worse because now what you are basically doing is recognizing your child is in a state of disease and then accepting the disease as part of your child.

      Either you are autistic and need a cure or you are not autistic and don’t need a cure.

      • Nick Sanders

        As an autistic person: get bent.

        • Se Clearly

          I see symptoms of offended spectrum disorder, this disorder happens when you subscribe to a lie and the lie you subscribe is exposed and you are proven foolish.

          I can help you towards a cure for offended spectrum disorders if you want.

          • Nick Sanders

            Man, and you call getting replied to with bunny facts trolling. Take a hike, loser.

          • Claire

            Oh look. One of those hardcore badasses who thinks they’re insulting someone by calling them “offended”. It’s hard to be 15.

      • LaMont

        I’m pretty sure that things on a “spectrum” don’t have a *binary* “you’re either this or that” situation going on, pretty much by definition.

      • StephanieJR

        Congratulations, you are now subscribed to Rabbit Facts!

        Did you know that rabbits eat their own poo? They graze on plant matter, process it once, eat it direct from the source, then digest it again and do the normal poos about the place.

        And the amazing thing is, they still manage to be better people than you! Isn’t that neat?

        To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, stop being a fucking twat.

        • Seeing Clearly

          Stephanie,

          I see symptoms of the offending spectrum disorder, this disorder happens when you subscribe to a lie and the lie you subscribe is exposed and you are proven foolish.

          You are a troll showing signs of offending spectrum disorder, you need to be cured before you are allowed to comment.

          The offended spectrum disorder impairs your ability to have a productive conversation.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, you continue to miss the point.

            I suppose I am trolling you. I also suppose you haven’t figured out why. Why have I spent the last several hours racking my brain to come up with insults wrapped in fact? Why have I spent the effort, you ask, in continuing to, what was it, offend you?

            Well, because you offend me, with your disturbing and terrifying subscription to the lies you speak about autism and people with an autism spectrum disorder. You offend everyone whom you categorise as different or diseased; I’m not too clear on what you actually believe, as I haven’t bothered to waste the brain cells reading the baseless claims you cry.

            Why should I give a flying fuck about what you have to say? Why should I swallow anything I despise? Why do we need to ‘cure’ autism? Oh wait, autism doesn’t really exist, according to you, despite the existence of several commentators whom happen to be on the autistic spectrum. Your attempts to erase them is rather despicable and not without notice, by the way. And your blatant and clumsy projections. ‘Offending spectrum disorder’, really? Come on. Don’t be so stupid.

            Why can’t we, as in everyone, adapt, and make the world a little easier, a little kinder? Why can’t we offer help, accept when it’s not required, and just leave them be?

            I do not presume to speak for people with autism. (I may or may not ‘have it’ myself; I’m fairly certain my brain is not ‘neurotypical’, but as I am without an official diagnosis, I won’t claim it; I do have several distant relatives on the spectrum, possibly including a young second cousin). But I will always do my best to speak out against abhorrent and wrong ideas.

            You can dismiss me all you like. You can plug your ears and raise your voice; I’ll just raise mine louder. I’ve spent my life quiet and shy and without the words. No more.

            You say I’m not giving you a productive conversation; I don’t care for any conversation with you. Quite frankly, I shall be delighted once you turn around and run away with your tail between your legs. All you seem to be doing is talking bollocks and upsetting people.

            Fun Rabbit Fact: did you know that rabbits have almost 360 degree vision? Because they have eyes on their side of their head, they can practically see from all directions, except for a small blind spot in front of their nose.

            I think my bunny rabbit sees more clearly than you, with your blind spot the size of Texas.

            I also think she is far better company than you, and far kinder to people whom are different.

            Amy is soft and fuzzy and cute. You are awful, horrendous and ignorant.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Stop beating around the bush get to the core of this.

            I assume that the reason for your behavior is because you are offended that I am saying autism is an abomination (a bad thing) first of all of you see autism as an LGBTQ style identity where I identify as something I am not because that is who I want to be or whatever it may be that is your problem, but autism is not an identity it was never meant to be because if it was an identity people would choose to be autistic just like you choose to be gay I am not saying those are sane choices but that is what would happen if autism was an identity of queerness.

            and if I completely missed the point tell me how I am ignorant and how I am lot saying the truth because ultimately that is not my intentions I want truth not ignorance and the ignorance I see is coming from people like you.

            (Hypocrites and bigoted but they are too backwards to acknowledge that)

          • Nick Sanders

            The list of things you don’t know about psychology continues to expand unabated, I see.

          • Empliau

            Autism is an abomination but we are hypocrites and bigoted.

            Nurse, a new irony meter, STAT!

          • Heidi_storage

            Do you have relatives on the spectrum?

          • Nick Sanders

            We can only hope not, for their sakes.

          • Heidi_storage

            That was one of my two reasons for asking–I would not want someone with such contempt for autistic kids to be in charge of one; she might endorse MMS enemas. My other reason was simple curiosity as to whether she’s known anybody autistic. What are the statistics–1 in 68? That’s more than many ethnicities. She will have to learn to live with people on the spectrum, however uncomfortable they (you) make her.

          • Seeing Clearly

            This should tell you something))))) an autistic person that acutely wants a cure http://autismgadfly.blogspot.com/?m=1

            Not everyone wants acceptance for autism or disability.

          • proudaspie

            Ooh, one whole person out of tens of thousands. I am on the spectrum, as is my BIL and I am friends with lots of others who are ASD. Not a one of us wants a cure, because it’s not a fucking disease. Our brains are just different. And you are a hateful, disgusting person who looks at us and thinks we all need to be sterilized, quarantined and institutionalized because we don’t fall into the narrow parameters of what you consider normal.

            And now I am damn proud to be an Aspie because I sure as shit don’t want to be anything like your hateful self. If you are “normal” then I am proud to be one of those horrible disease carriers you think I am. Austims FTW!

          • Young CC Prof

            OK, great, some autistic people want a cure. Still, no cure exists, nor is it likely to exist anytime soon, as there are no avenues of research that even suggest cures are possible.

            More to the point, the fact that the child MAY want to be cured in no way justifies poisoning a child with bleach, without any evidence that it can even help. These parents are so horrified by autism that they will try anything, not matter how painful or risky to the child, on the mere suggestion that it might help. THAT is the problem.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My husband would love to be able to see our faces, but he doesn’t go chasing every faith healer and quack cure so he can be “normal”

          • Who?

            I’d like to be taller. But wishing will not make it so, and therefore I muddle along with my stumpy-bum-itis and yet manage to lead a worthwhile life.

            You may find that others who, unlike yourself are not perfect, whole and whatever else that little catechism of yours was, manage to also lead worthwhile lives. Perhaps by minding their own business quite a bit of the time.

            You should try it, see what you think.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Eating healthier makes you taller.

            Mind your own business is code for let me continue walking in my wicked ways comfortably.

            This is a public forum we are all allowed to have dialogue as long as we are not off topic or profaning or spamming or trying to distract others like some are in this comment section.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            “Eating healthier makes you taller”? I’d love to see a proposed mechanism of action for that one.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My grandma lived on a farm in the 30s and 40s. She barely cleared 5 feet.

          • Who?

            Not at my age it doesn’t.

            Second para-exactly. Thankfully your wicked ways are not my responsibility.

            The first part of your third para is correct; if you put a full stop at ‘dialogue’ it would be perfect. Dr T gets to decide what can be on here, not you.

            If you don’t like what goes on here, stop reading. For your purposes, that would fix it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So, there are autistic people who support looking for a cure. There are others who don’t. Weird. Almost like autistic people are individuals with a variety of views on their condition as well as other issues.

          • Who?

            Likely that fella in the mirror.

          • Heidi_storage

            That would explain a lot. Self-loathing is a terrible thing.

          • StephanieJR

            Oh honey, don’t you start with the LGBTQ (and I and A – as in Asexual – as in me, the Ace, the Ally), because if I can put up with my brother’s bigotry and get him turned around into a halfway decent, accepting person, you are child’s play. I’ve been stubborn since I was small, I’ve argued with people far more interesting and intelligent than you.

            I hate to see your attitude towards people both gay and autistic.

            Or towards disabled bunny rabbits.

            (I think I once heard of a book called All Cats Have Asperger’s? I propose that All Rabbits Have Anxiety)

            But that is tomorrow’s battle; my bunny wants her pellets and her bed, and I need to hop in the shower.

            ‘Night, all.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Hating the abominable is a productive or healthy use of bigotry.

          • Chi

            Well at least you admit that you’re a bigot >_>

          • Seeing Clearly

            I am a bigot against every kind of unrighteousness, never ever had an interest in hiding that.

            And there is nothing wrong with by bigotry, as I am bigoted against what is wrong in the first place.

          • Chi

            Actually there is a LOT wrong with bigotry. It means that you aren’t open to other ideas, other points of view. It means that you believe your position is right and everyone else is ‘abnormal’.

            It’s a very narrow-minded view of the world and I feel sorry for you. But I also need to ask, why are you even here? It’s clear that no one here is interested in your ‘views’ and you’re NOT looking for opinions that differ from your own.

            So why are you still here?

          • momofone

            And–let me guess–you are the arbiter of unrighteousness, right?

          • Seeing Clearly

            Wrong.

          • momofone

            Please do enlighten us then. How do we know what meets the righteousness standard and what doesn’t?

          • Se Clearly

            Good question, I personally read the bible however, I don’t think you are required to in order to know what is good and what is evil.

            I will try to answer this question however I humble myself due to the fact that this is a very complicated question.

            We discern right from wrong in a similar sense that we can discern between what is beautiful and what is not, for example, would you call a baby beautiful or a skeleton inside a dark cave, beautiful how about a forest fire vs a lush green grassy land how about a dead forest vs a lush one which one is beautiful?

            If you say it is a matter of opinion you are acutely wrong, there is a reason why you don’t see skeletons and knives and pictures of Lucifer in wedding parties or elementary schools.

          • momofone

            That may be the most rambling non-answer I’ve read in a while, and that’s saying something. So basically your beliefs are the determining factor?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You read The Bible, but you don’t capitalize it like any other book title?

          • namaste863

            Okay, Almighty Knower of Good and Evil……name me ONE characteristic behavior Autistic people display that the Bible says is morally wrong or “abominable.” Just one. I sure don’t see a Commandment that says “Thou shalt not find loud noises upsetting, or Thou shalt not repeat back what someone else says in order to connect with them.”

            And beauty is in the eye of the beholder, dipshit. One person might find a lush valley beautiful AND a forrest fire a different kind of beautiful. Some find the desert beautiful while others find it desolate. Some find beauty watching a performance of Swan Lake, while it bores others to tears.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, I hope I’m still annoying the shit out of you with Rabbit Facts!

            Did you know that, when they’re very happy, rabbits do a fun little dance called a binky. It’s so great to see! It’s comprised of running very fast in random directions, stopping suddenly, leaping into the air, with a few twists and jumps thrown in.

            And oh look, there are videos! Hooray!

            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-Z_jxNqhI

            (I hope I did that right)

            Wasn’t that nice? I don’t think anyone could have anything bad to say about bunny binkies. I’d dare say it’s a form of beauty; a beauty of joy.

            I bet you could drudge up some words about it, though, from your underground layer of seething hatred. You proclaim yourself the bastion of Right, of Correct, as you shut own, erase and censor anyone Different. You cannot accept anything other than your own narcissistic claims of Normal. You screech and slaver at our Wicked Evil, as if you can exorcise and cure us through a computer screen. As if we want or need a cure.

            Fuck that noise, you indescribable wanker.

          • Azuran

            It absolutely is a matter of opinion.
            I personnaly find nature very beautifull. Nature is neither good or evil, it just is. And there os beauty in many things. A forest fire is part od nature and can be beautifull. I find praying mantis very beautifull, but they are deadly little things. I lived through a severe ice storm, the pictures are breath taking.
            Love is beautifull, no matter if its a man and a woman or two men or two women.
            Ive also seen ugly babies. And extremelly beautiful drawing of demons.

          • You’ve … never seen pictures of Goth weddings, have you? It’s an aesthetic that I’m not personally fond of, but they have some awesome costumes and banners full of knives, skulls, and sometimes the devil. The wedding is no less valid or full of love for their aesthetic choices, either.

          • MaineJen

            I don’t know. I think the skeleton and the other inner workings of the body *are* inherently beautiful, because they are the stuff of life. It would be beautiful to find a skeleton deep inside a cave, to be the first one in centuries to see the evidence of life that once was.

            Forest fires *do* have a kind of terrible, destructive beauty to them, the same way hurricanes, tornadoes, and tidal waves do. As do “dead,” swampy forests (which are never, never entirely dead).

            You know how, the more you come to know certain people, the more you gradually admire and love them, the more beautiful they become? Until, finally, they are the *most* beautiful in your eyes, and you can’t understand how anyone could think they are ugly?

            Of course you don’t know. Because you’re a child, and a child can’t know those things. You clearly know nothing of love, or life. If you did, you’d understand the subjectivity of beauty.

          • namaste863

            You know, the newest Sesame Street character is autistic. I recommend tuning in. It might teach you about autism in a way your teeny, tiny, closed-tighter-than-a-hermetically-sealed-chamber mind can grasp.

          • Mishimoo

            Well, you’re a well-rounded bigot, I’ll give you that. Is there a single group of people you don’t hate? Perhaps you shouldn’t engage with others online, it can’t possibly be good for your blood pressure.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        And then there are the days when I wonder whether there is any cure for neurotypicality. It seems a very virulent brain problem at times.

      • Mishimoo

        It must be wonderful to live in your world, where everything is so simple and clear-cut; all black and white with no shades of grey and you are a Hero for condescending to tell us poor misguided people the Truth. Unfortunately, the real world isn’t like that, autism isn’t a dragon to slay, and you’re merely a troll who condones the abuse of vulnerable children. My condolences to your family and everyone who has the misfortune of coming into even the briefest contact with you.

      • Young CC Prof

        To see “clearly” why you sound like a terrible person, let’s try replacing “autistic” with, for example, deaf.

        Pretending your deaf child can hear makes you a terrible parent, while acknowledging and working with the truth is part of being a decent parent. Some forms of deafness are treatable medically, but some are not, and children who are not cured are still valuable people with, potentially, a high quality of life.

      • rosewater1

        When you are diagnosed with autism-or your child is-it’s a fact of life. Wishing will not make it not so.

        In the interest of full disclosure…I don’t have children. Make of that what you will.

        But it seems to me that when you have a child, you don’t just love and accept the parts of them that you like and fit into your comfort zone. You need to accept all of them. That is what you are going to get. It’s your legal responsibility for the next 18 years and your moral responsibility for the rest of your life.

        if this mother wants to seek alternative treatments to deal with her child’s autism, go for it. We are each a laboratory of one. Some of what she tries might help. But clearly the bleach treatment isn’t working, and unless she’s flat out lying, it’s hurting her child. Is staying the course with this that important to her?

        It seems like she is so focused on the “cure” that ‘she’s forgetting the child-the children-who need their mother. And that means more than enemas.

        • Seeing Clearly

          I don’t condone this parent bleach scandal, the motivation might be good, however the action is clearly wrong.

          I am not a parent yet, however if I was I would only love my children for their perfections not there defects because that is how it should be if we loved defects not only are we neglecting to fixing the defects but rather full on praising them and I think this is wrong.

          Acceping the good and the bad doesn’t convert the bad to good.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Congrats! You’ve subscribed to blindy facts:

            Those with visual impairment are currently having a debate whether blind children should learn Braille. Screen reading programs such as JAWS and the greater accessibility of audio books has diminished the demand for Braille books. On the other hand, there are advantages to being able to read the words to yourself. For one thing, your ability to spell is improved when you actually see spellings. For another, there are plenty of circumstances in which physically reading is preferable, such as reading your children a bed time story or reading a book in the library, or finding the bathroom.

          • StephanieJR

            May I ask what JAWS is, exactly? And does it help whilst reading the novel JAWS?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            lol, it might. JAWS is a screen reading program that is mostly developed for the workplace. Demodocus has been using it for ages. You can change the voice and the speed, so reading the novel JAWS as a chipmunk would be pretty funny.

          • Nick Sanders

            When I went to the campus OSD back in college, one of the people in there frequently was a legally blind girl. On all the student use computers in there, she had JAWS cranked up to super motormouth speed. I would sit down at a computer, and the second I moved the cursor over a program icon, it would read the name at approximate infinity words per minute. So, for example, “Windows Internet Explorer” would treat me to “WinwsinrntXOR” in about half a second. She could understand this rapid fire gibberish perfectly, why I was struggling to make out if an actual human language had been used.

            It was fairly impressive.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            lol, Demodocus can do that too. Practice I guess. Our home computer is set slightly slower than that (only a mere billion words per second).

          • MayonnaiseJane

            And it likes to break regularly, then requiring the assistance of a sighted IT professional to make it work again. I hope whatever the home-oriented screen reader is, it doesn’t break down so much. It’s not a good accessibility device if it constantly needs repair specificaly by a person who does not have the disability it’s made to assist with.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Dem has plain old JAWS at home. He can update it himself and it generally behaves itself at home. From what I’ve heard, JAWS is one of the better screen readers available. He’s also one of the people who beta-test new VI programs for his job.

          • I was giving our organization’s JAWS user the benefit of the doubt… it’s possible that SHE keeps breaking it.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Its also possible that she’s got a buggy one or that Dem is simply techy enough to work out the bugs without my help. Except that time he managed to completely erase audio from the computer. That took talent. *snort*

          • Also possible. But I say that as if she’s singular. We technically have TWO Jaws users. The one who has constant trouble with it only has light/dark sense, but the one who doesn’t have any trouble has sufficient residual sight to “click on the green blob please.” I figured she was able to wrangle JAWS when it gets out of hand because of that remaining sight.

            You want to talk inept tech and I could tell you the story of the time my father managed to uninstall DOS out from UNDER Windows 95 while leaving Windows 95 intact (as indicated by the fact that all our settings and preferences were still there when DOS was put back on it by the guy at the computer shop.)

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            LOL

          • Seeing Clearly

            You have also been diagnosed with offended spectrum disorder which has become an epidemic as evident in this comment section.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Do you ever laugh at your parents’ yearbook pictures? This is your version of those.

          • Seeing Clearly

            My parents didn’t go to high school because they migrated from another country I will not name for privacy reasons.

          • Dr Kitty

            They must be so ashamed of you.
            Parading your ignorance for everyone to see.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You’ve seen pictures of other people’s parents’ high school pictures, yes? Haven’t you ever seen styles from the ’80s and ’90s?

          • StephanieJR

            And here I was going to give you the ultimate insult a Scot can give a person: call you English.

            But even that is unfair to the English.

            (I kid, I kid; I actually am more English than Scottish, technically)

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            :p

          • MaineJen

            So insult. Much clever.

          • Azuran

            Why not both?
            Raising bilingual children is all the rage these days. Surely knowing braille as well as usung new technologies can only be positive.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Both is a given if you’re a Braille user, unless you have zero access to modern technology

          • Eater of Worlds

            My blind friend gave up on Braille. She tried for years and years and years and years to learn it, and never got to anywhere near proficiency in reading it. She was so happy that technology improved to where it became easy to use something other than Braille.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Did she go blind as a young child? Granted, it took my sister years to be able to read print proficiently

          • Eater of Worlds

            Born with it due to albinism. She has a guide dog, her eyesight is pretty bad even for those with albinism.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Must have been very frustrating for her.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Even with special glasses that run 500 a pop and screen readers and page enlargers nothing is ever clear. She has a bad case of nystagmus, her eyes are constantly moving and as a result they aren’t focusing on the same thing at the same time. This video shows what it looks like, but hers is much more severe than this woman’s. Her eyes more more quickly and more…sharply, I guess you’d say https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAZIE-QcYuo

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Dem’s do that too, although at a slower rate,

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, you you have been selected to Rabbit Facts Ultra Service, specifically tailored to horrid gargoyles!

            Did you know that male rabbits use pee to mark their territory? I have been pissed upon numberous times by overexcited bucks.

            I can honestly say I’d rather douse myself in that fine perfume than spend any time devoted to listening to your nonsense, particularly as you get progressively more prejudiced, but unfortunately I was blessed with the reading comprehension you so sorely lack, so I feel I must attach cute bunny pictures as a brain palate cleanser.

            This is Amy, and she will piss on people I don’t like.

            And I really don’t like you.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9846ac96ee05df38279000318fa4aacb6d4de84ae7dc83d73dfc12c3205454f7.jpg

          • Dr Kitty

            I love that you think you can choose how you love your children. It doesn’t work like that ( really, it doesn’t: you’ll think they are the cutest, smartest, most delightful children ever born, despite objective evidence to the contrary).

            Newsflash: you will love your children wholly, viscerally and unconditionally, whether you like it or not.

            If, at some point, you make a conscious decision to reject your child, for whatever stupid reason, that’s on you.
            It is 100% not on your children, who will deserve to be accepted and loved as themselves, whatever that might mean.
            You’re a dick.

          • Box of Salt

            Dr Kitty “It is 100% not on your children, who will deserve to be accepted and loved as themselves”

            I’m pretty sure Seeing Clearly is already on the wrong end of that.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I hope s/he matures a lot before then, but being a Young Christian, probably not. Generally, only fundie protestants refer to themselves that way. Because Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, and Mormons are just not Christian, or are Christian-Lite. And Fundies tend to marry early

          • Seeing Clearly

            I follow God not men for men is wicked and that is what makes the world horrible.

          • People can be evil and horrible. They can also be wonderful, altruistic, and amazing. Humanity runs the gamut; most of us are somewhere in between, and no one is all the way at one end or the other of the spectrum. If you think people deserve the blame for the bad things they do (and I would agree with you on that), then they also deserve the credit for the good things they do.

            Children are never going to be perfect, because people are never perfect. Children are small, still-developing people. If you can’t love your children and love their flaws, then why the hell are you going to be a parent? Unconditional love doesn’t say “I love you but not how your brain works”. That’s not unconditional love- that’s not love at all. If you tell an autistic child that you love them but not their autism, you’re telling them that their brain is broken and wrong and you don’t actually love who they are. Don’t do that.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Men are wicked or man is wicked.
            But you don’t follow God, unless he’s speaking directly to you. You follow your version of our faith’s understanding of The Bible.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Seeing Clearly

            If I have a baby girl and she wants to be a boy should I love the girl or the make belief boy?

            I would love the girl not her dysphoria.

          • The boy isn’t broken. Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and the treatment is to transition. You think you should love the make-believe girl, not the son-in-a-girl’s-body that you have? That kind of “love” makes people kill themselves because it feels like hatred- see Leelah Alcorn. If you tell someone that you don’t love who they are, but what you want them to be, it’s not love at all.

          • Who?

            Love the child. Work it out from there.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You love your child, even if you don’t always understand them. But work *towards* understanding your child.

          • Azuran

            Than you will only love a lie that doesnt exist and lose your very real boy.

          • Mishimoo

            While I agree with you completely because that is my experience with my kids (and indeed, the experience I see with non-abusive parents); I think you’re being a little generous about this person’s nature given the opinions/behaviours they have displayed here. I do not doubt for a second that if they reproduce and have a child that doesn’t measure up to their arbitrary standards, they will abuse or neglect them.

          • Se Clearly

            Part of loving your children is making sure they are not autistic or have any other illness, lead them the way they should go which is one that doesn’t embrace disability or disorder or disease or is neglected to a cure towards the listed above.

            Unconditional love is not accepting your child’s flaws, but embracing your child where he does go in and helping him where he fails.

            Do not spare the rad and spoil the child a spoiled child doesn’t make it far in life.

            Do not applaud your children for being bad reject your children if they are bad reject anyone if they are bad bad is always worthy of rejection and the people who do bad must repent.

            Being autistic or LGBT or queer is insanity and problems nothing to be happy and accepting about.

          • Who?

            How could you ‘make sure’ of any such thing?

            You can choose to deny, deflect and not engage, but even if you choose to not see something, that something remains real.

          • momofone

            Part of maturity is having some sense that you don’t know everything. You have no clue what you don’t know. This post, maybe more than any of your others, starkly illustrates your lack of maturity. I have no idea what brought you here or what you expect to achieve here, but my hope for you is that you go grow up and come back when you can discuss rather than issue proclamations that only highlight your lack of experience.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            God, I hope you grow up -before- you have kids.

          • Azuran

            You CANT make sure your kid isnt autistic. Thats not how any of this works.
            I hope you stay in school, you obviously need it

          • Azuran

            Of course youa are also homophobic. Such maturity you have.

          • Charybdis

            “if they are bad, reject anyone if they are bad bad is always worthy of rejection and the people who do bad must repent”.
            Right then. Show of hands, everyone!!! Do we reject Se Clearly here?
            Unanimous decision. Rejected, you are.
            Speaking like Yoda, I am…

          • Seeing Clearly

            I wasn’t proven bad, plus your morals are backwards so you see good as bad and bad as good.

          • Box of Salt

            Se/eing Clearly,
            If you are truly voicing your thoughts rather than adopting a particularly annoying internet persona, please find someone outside your own family and religious organization who can help you resolve your issues about your own imperfections.

            What you are doing here, posting these comments anonymously on an internet forum, is not a constructive activity for you.

          • MaineJen

            Okay, I don’t care if you’re a kid. Your views are crap. They’re hateful. Some day, you will realize that.

          • Nick Sanders

            Insanity? You don’t even know what the hell insanity is, so don’t go flinging about extremely loaded terms. Try actually LISTENING to people for once, instead of trying to dictate other people’s lives and thoughts to them.

            I’m not insane. LGBT people are not insane. Proclaiming people you don’t understand insane is not rational, not conducive to conversation, and frankly, utterly disgusting. You’re not some enlightened beacon of reason and morality, you’re an asshole who doesn’t even have the sense to realize how much of a complete jackass you are.

          • Heidi_storage

            Not how parenting works. Every child deserves to be and to feel safe and loved, no matter their characteristics. Of course you try to help them overcome weaknesses, but the overarching frame is not love for “perfections” (as if any child were perfect) or for defects, but for the child.

          • Azuran

            Then you would be a terrible parent. You dont love your kids only for their perfection.
            And again: many things CANT be cured. What are you going to do then? Some things cant be fixed.

          • Heidi_storage

            I don’t want to derail the thread with too much theology, but God showed his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. But perfection does not occur this side of Heaven. Moreover, I recall no passages where Christ rails against those who are afflicted, but many where He berates those who are hard-hearted.

            Modern medicine is wonderful. I love its ability to extend life and improve quality of life. I cheer for advances in scientific and medical understanding. It is bizarre, however, to equate sin and disability as you seem to be doing.

          • Christy

            I wish I could upvote this about 1,000 more times.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            “I would only love my children for their perfections not there defects.”

            Do you love your parents? Do you love what they taught you? If so, you love their defects.

            Moreover, I suggest that you do some reading about the Dunning Kruger effect, since you are afflicted by it. You think you know about love? You are no different from the four year old who thinks she knows about math because she figured out how to add. She doesn’t know what she doesn’t know, either.

          • Charybdis

            No child is perfect. Hell, no PERSON is perfect. If we only loved people for their perfections, everybody would be in an un-loved state. Or, more to the point: how does one define perfection? What makes the cut and what doesn’t? Who does the deciding? Is it a committee, panel, or a single person? What makes them fit to make the determination of what “perfection” is?
            Ever heard of Hitler and the Aryan race belief? How’d that work out for everybody? Ethnic cleansings? Genocides?

      • Dr Kitty

        Is English your first language?
        Are your drunk?
        Have you finished High school?

        I have to ask, because having read your posts, I can’t assume you’re a sober adult who knows what they’re saying.

        • Seeing Clearly

          I have never done drugs, I can speak English and I am currently in High School but I learn most of my things doing independent research because the mind learns better I don’t exactly know why but I can speculate.

          In regards to all this covfefe nonsense I have to put up with because of the anti-cure cult of insanity I am courageous and honorable to even be here facing all this hatred towards me simply because I believe in health not illness and promote a cure to mental health problems and all illnesses.

          • momofone

            In high school. Of course you know it all! That will change if you let it, and I hope you will.

          • namaste863

            HIGH SCHOOL?!!!!! I hate to say it, but dude, it shows. You clearly have neither the maturity or the life experience to even approach issues that most adults would find difficult to wrestle with, let alone to try to argue with adults. Think twice before trying.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Excuse me, I have no tattoos I haven’t tasted a drug, I don’t cuss, I don’t play video games or watch TV I don’t eat junk food and basically I am a Young Christian that wants to make the world a better place even if the world doesn’t want to be a better place and resists being a better place.

            I am pretty mature just admit it unless you can give real proof that I am not mature, sorry to say but age doesn’t tell you about maturity.

          • Who?

            Oh honey.

            Too good to learn from your teachers, you turn to a fairy tale for comfort.

          • Dr Kitty

            Let’s see, lots of us, just by reading your posts, worked out that you are a child.
            Thus, you are not mature, because actual grown ups know that you are a child without needing to be told.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I’m a Middle-Aged Christian. And let me tell you sweetie, my minister father and my seminarian sister would have a very long conversation with you about your foolishness.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Tell me more.

          • Dr Kitty

            Nobody needs to tell you anything, pet.
            You need to read more.
            Not sites and sources you like and agree with- challenge yourself, go to sites with a Skeptical or Humanist philosophy.
            Challenge yourself.

            Look at BMJ, NEJM and other medical journals.
            Go and see what the smart people are talking about.

            Expand your horizons, without supervision or direction.
            Just read stuff.

            You seem awfully sheltered.

            Come back in six months and tell us how that went.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Seeing as how I’m a teacher and generous that way,
            Dad and R both have their own life long difficulties. Dad’s a bad asthmatic and R is dyslexic. They’re both cancer survivors, my sister’s first bout when she was about your age. Sure, they prayed, but they also had chemo. Chemo without prayer is far more successful than prayer without chemo.
            Dad’s asthma could be eased by certain things, such as *not* living downwind of a bunch of factories or too near high traffic areas, and not smoking, but his lungs are crappy. R’s dyslexia can’t be cured but she was able to learn workarounds so that she can live a fairly ordinary life.
            One of Dad’s favorite sayings is “God helps those who help themselves” and likes to retell the joke about the man who refused rides from a pickup, a canoe, and a helicopter as his area was flooding, saying God would save him. He died and when he got to Heaven he asked God what happened, and God told him that he tried by sending a pickup, a canoe, and a helicopter. However, Dad would tell you that if someone came by telling you this anchor would save your life from a flood, you’re a fool.
            Not everything has a cure yet. It’d be nice if there were, but that is still a long way off.
            No one here is romantacizing disability. Many of us live with one sort or another. People come in here, saying things like you’ve been saying, who tell us outright that we aren’t righteous enough or that we are too gullible or that we are paid shills for the pharmaceutical/formula industries. Should we be ashamed to have a disability? We say no, we shouldn’t. We can still make a contribution to the world.
            For heaven’s sake, child, you are scolding a bunch of adults who handle their disabilities with aplumb about how to view their disabilities. Don’t you see how that’s rude? Don’t you see how uncharitable it is? Pride may goeth before a fall, but we aren’t really talking about pride, or about being offended. You’re an amateur at the latter and we’ve all lived quite long enough and most of us have suffered one way or another enough to try to keep a rein on hubris.
            Oh, and about ablism? That word already has a definition, as Dr. T. said, and your attempts to make it mean something else are inadequate, to say the least.

          • StephanieJR

            Can I give you a High Five Of Pure Awesomeness? Because you very much deserve it.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Awe, shucks. Learning s/he’s an idiot kid rather than an idiot adult does kick in my teacherly instincts. Not that s/he’s liable to believe me. sigh.
            S/he really does need to get out more and see more of the world. Philosophy’s all fine and dandy but you have to have some sort of connection with other people’s experiences to not sound utterly absurd.

          • StephanieJR

            I’m in my twenties and know I have still much to learn.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Me too. Thus the difference between us and our high school guest. “Sophomoric” seems especially apt.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Oh, and I quite like to play Tetris and have the occasional cookie.

          • Roadstergal

            And I have fuckin’ tattoos. 😀

          • Box of Salt

            Seeing Clearly “unless you can give real proof that I am not mature,”

            Here you go, from the same comment: “I have no tattoos I haven’t tasted a drug, I don’t cuss, I don’t play video games or watch TV I don’t eat junk food”

            In other words, you have NO life experience.

            To make things clear for you: No life experience = no maturity.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, thinking cussing, playing video games, watching TV, and eating junk food are signs of immaturity are, ironically, possible signs of immaturity. As is your complete refusal to comprehend that the world might be different for other people.

            Side not, your life sounds extremely boring. You might want to loosen up a bit. Don’t do drugs, obviously, but, watch a show, play a game, have a bag of chips, something other than just bragging about how damn superior you are on the internet.

          • momofone

            Your barometers for maturity (tattoos? cussing? junk food?) are meaningless. Though I know it pains you to hear it, age does frequently reflect maturity (or the lack thereof).

          • Azuran

            You should open that tv a little. It might open you to the world.

            If you think that maturity means no tv, tattoo, pot or videogames, then you arent mature.

          • Heidi_storage

            Pride is a terrible sin. And it betrays a certain lack of maturity to insist on one’s own maturity. Go ahead and make the world better, but before you do remove the 2-by-4 in your eye. Remember: You are a sinner, and your abstention from smoking, drinking, and drugs cannot earn you salvation. Also remember that God loves and values those with imperfections (i.e., all of us). He doesn’t wrinkle His nose in distaste at autistic people, as you seem to be doing, nor value them any less than He does you.

          • MaineJen

            Oh sweetheart. Give yourself 10 years.

          • I’m amused that the worst things you can think of are drugs, tattoos, cursing, junk food, and TV/video games. Like, seriously? I do all of the above except tattoos (never found a design I liked enough to permanently ink it on myself), assuming that alcohol counts as a drug. I don’t think I’m a horrible, wicked person!

            And, you know, if someone doesn’t do any of the above, whatever. They live their life, I live mine. Not everything has to be a Moral Issue. Sometimes it’s okay to just like different things and have different hobbies and interests.

          • Box of Salt

            I just got a tattoo in honor of our friend Seeing Clearly.

            Granted, it’s a temporary tattoo featuring the mascot of our local baseball team, and it’s been sitting around my house for a few years since my kids somehow acquired more of them than they could possibly wear at a game.

            Since I’m not on Disqus and cannot upvote, I also would like to thank you for your insightful comments throughout this comment thread.

          • StephanieJR

            It’s been my plan for years to, one day, get a rabbit tattoo. Probably once I’m mature enough to not regret a permanent design.

            When I do, I shall cackle madly in remembrance of this rather long conversation.

          • Box of Salt

            StephanieJR, on behalf of my daughter I would also like to thank you for all the Rabbit Facts and especially photos. I suspect that if she ever gets a real tattoo, like yours it will be a rabbit.

          • StephanieJR

            Oh, it is my most humble pleasure. Virtual hugs, wee wifey and lassie.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Son, you might feel mature but you have no idea who you are talking to. I am 40, have lived in different countries, have worked in different countries, I do have a son, hold an MD and a PhD and have been near death because of serious health issues a couple of times. You are a young Christian in high School telling people with actual experience of parenthood how to parent their children. I could be your mother. The point is: I do not tell other parents what to do. When you have a child and some life experience you do not tell other parents what to do unless it is really harmful for the kid because you know better.

            Mature? You have not lived on your own. You have not paid your own bills. You have no idea what it is like to keep a job you dislike just to pay the bills. You have no idea what it is like to arrive to a new place and start to make your own living. You do not know what it is like to choose between your health and the health of someone you love. You do not know what it feels like to find out the love of your life is dead.

            When you have had some of those experiences come back and tell me something about parenting… if you still have the courage to do so. I lost my will to give life lessons somewhere between my near death experience and my moving to a town where I knew nobody.

          • Empliau

            Beautifully said. Thank you.

          • Seeing Clearly

            I didn’t come here to argue either I came here to have a civilized and rational conversation and then I am faced with all this hatred towards me simply because i don’t promote the false narrative that disability is a natural and good thing.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Right there it shows how very young you are. Disability is never a bad thing, nor is it a good thing. It is just something that is, and people have to deal with the consequences of it. Having a disability is like having a particular eye color, it’s just something that exists. Given that almost 20% of people in the US have a disability you should really take a look at what you’re calling people who are disabled.

          • Heidi_storage

            Oh it makes me feel so much better to know you’re in high school. Teenagers can often take very cruel positions without knowing why they’re cruel, and you have time to learn how to treat people who are different from you with the respect, dignity, and compassion due to other human beings.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Autism is not a difference it is a disease though just like being blind is not a difference it is a disease.

            I love diversity we have black and white skin blue eyes and all I am simply not choosing to embrace a disease for example being blind or having blisters in your skin or having a mental illness as part of being different when in reality it is more like your difference is at jeopardy.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Being blind is not “a disease”. Blindness can be caused by several diseases as well as physical accidents. The disease that gave my husband cataracts was over 42 years ago, before he was even born. Then he developed glaucoma as a complication of the removal surgery 41 years ago. We do not glorify the glaucoma. We accept it as part of our life that cannot yet be changed, except for the worse, and move the heck on.

          • Heidi_storage

            But difference of any kind confers benefits and detriments. Blue eyed blonds are more susceptible to skin cancer; summer babies tend to be healthier than winter babies; intelligence has some heritable factors; and so on.

            What you keep saying when you say that autism must be cured is that all the autistic people in the world who cannot be cured are inferior to neurotypical people. That, in a sense, these people SHOULD NOT EXIST, for if they were not autistic they would not be who they are.

            Do you see how this is hurtful?

            And do you also see where that line of thinking leads to some dark places? At the very least, it involves denigrating large swathes of people who have some mood disorder, mental illness, physical imperfection, or other disability. It inhibits seeing them in their humanity, with their own unique needs and rights and accomplishments. At the very worst–well, let’s not get into Godwin’s Law.

            You want to study the cause(s) of autism? Great. More information is always useful. But when considering the plight of a 7-year-old child who is having bleach shoved into her butt until she is sick, think to yourself of the dangers of trying to “cure” instead of learning to accept and to help this girl navigate the world.

          • Azuran

            Overall, basically everyone has some kind of mental or physical deficit or difference. No one is entirely mentally and physically perfect.

            I need glasses. Thats not normal. Is it a disease? I guess it is. But there’s nothing i can do about it. They dont yet do surgeries for what i have.
            Do you think my difference in eyesight shouldnt be recognised and accepted? That i shouldnt have been allowed to sit in front so that i could read the boards at school? That surgical mask or sunglasses adapted to those who need glasses are an abomination? I dont embrace my need for glasses, but i accept it as who i am and a part of me that im gonna have to deal with all my life.

            Should i spend my life refusing to wear glasses and cry for a cure?

          • Dr Kitty

            Ah, you’re a child.

            So I can attribute all your nonsense to the fact that your frontal lobe isn’t yet fully functional…and you’re not that bright (because babe, your grammar, spelling and syntax SUCK).

            I don’t think anyone has the energy to HATE you- I think amused disdain is the most you can hope for.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Kid, why don’t you go back to practicing for the basketball season if you want pats on your back. Or volunteer in your area’s food bank. Or tutor smaller kids. Something that would actually make a difference.

            I don’t even hate the man who abused me all through my teens, much less you. Not worth the emotional output.

            Whatever “research” you’ve been doing will not give you the grade you think you deserve if you handed that paper to -me-, nor would any of Dr. Amy’s other teacher regulars, never mind the PhDs and MDs you are trying to “school.”

            You don’t believe there aren’t cures for everything? Fine, work on finding a cure for something that doesn’t yet have one. I suggest getting good grades and working on your research skills while you are still a child in high school, because you have a long way to go to improve your critical thinking and researching skills.

          • Box of Salt

            So, Seeing Clearly ” I am currently in High School but I learn most of my things doing independent research”

            Are you being home schooled?

          • Se Clearly

            Unfortunately no, The schools in my area are really crappy. This generation is being wasted.

          • Box of Salt

            Se Clearly “This generation is being wasted.”

            That’s clear from your own spelling of your ‘nym.

          • Azuran

            If 100% of the people around you are the problems, then you are the problem.
            If YOU are the best your generation has to offer, than i fear for our future

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Thankfully, the teens I know are not so annoyingly condescending.

          • Heidi_storage

            I fear that I was, though thankfully never did think that autistic people were inferior to neurotypical people. I had compassion for others, I think, but also a woeful lack of perspective because of my inexperience (and I went to public school).

          • Charybdis

            And you aren’t helping it any.

          • Seeing Clearly

            How am I not helping it, I am helping it right now I am very outspoken against drugs and profanity and sicknesses and all sorts of stuff I am doing what if we all did would make the world a much better place.

          • Profanity isn’t a big deal. It’s cathartic, actually. Drugs aren’t generally a good idea, but used in moderation some of them aren’t that bad either. Marijuana and alcohol are only very mildly harmful. Tobacco, heroin, cocaine, and the like are worse, and things like PCP are pretty awful. Legalizing or decriminalizing most drugs would go a long way towards reducing the harms we associate with drug use- people who became addicted could get treatment, and you wouldn’t have to make criminal contacts to get your intoxicant of choice.

            No one likes sickness, but how you define “sick” makes a big difference. Being LGBTQIA, being non-neurotypical (on the autism spectrum, ADD/ADHD, etc.), those aren’t sick. They are different from ‘standard’, but that’s not a bad thing necessarily. It’s better for all of us if we as a society bend to make our society work for people who are hyper-sensitive to noises and bright lights and touch, and then use their talents in jobs or arts where they can be really productive. It’s better for all of us if we welcome love without judgment between consenting individuals, and let people determine who they are instead of forcing it upon them. Different is not wrong.

            You’re being very judgmental. You’re being very hateful. You’re telling all the autistic commenters here, of which there are many (though I am not one of them), that they are sick and wrong and bad and you think they should be “fixed”. That’s just mean, and you should stop it.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Haven’t you noticed my desire for a rational conversation and people keep mocking me with hatred of my beliefs.

          • momofone

            Your ability and experience are not commensurate with your desire. When they are, feel free to come back.

          • Box of Salt

            Seeing Clearly,
            the problem is that your stated beliefs are not rational.

            Please take the comment I posted just before this one seriously.

          • You don’t seem to have much desire for rational conversation, not from our end. You don’t cite your sources. You don’t have evidence backing up your assertions. You have directly insulted all non-cis, non-hetero, non-neurotypical individuals, and by extension all of us cis, het, neurotypical people who love them as they are. People aren’t mocking your beliefs per se- they are showing you in various ways (some polite, some rude, none wrong) that your beliefs are wrong and hateful. They hurt people. That’s not okay.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Rational conversations and beliefs rarely go hand in hand.

          • rosewater1

            Oh the irony in this statement!!!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I take it you are anti-oxford comma.

          • Azuran

            We are not anti cure. But there is no cure for autism and IF it can be cured, it could take decades.
            What should we do about it until then? Ignore those who are autistic? Lock up all those with any kind of disability? point at them and call them defective and tell them to go cure themselves? Refuse to recognise their difference and condemn them to a life i the street?
            Thats not going to help anyone.
            And there is nothing wrong with diagnosing autism. There is no cure for alzheimer, should we stop diagnising it? Should we close all nursing homes because they are working ‘with’ people with dementia and alzheimers instead of telling them to get over it and be normal?

            You are nothing but an ignorant kid. Come back in 10 years or so, when you’ll have some real life experience.

          • In your independent research- do you ever consider sources? Are you giving the same weight to a mommy blog as a research paper published in an independent, reputable journal? I recommend you stick to Google Scholar for information, since that has a much lower signal to noise ratio- in other words, it’s much more likely to be correct.

            The Internet knows everything. That means it holds a ton of wrong information, misinformation, and deliberate lies alongside its truths. If you don’t know how to sift fact from fiction, you’re not going to learn much from unfiltered searches.

          • MaineJen

            No. It doesn’t take courage or honor to argue with more knowledgeable people online. In your case, all it takes is an unhealthy degree of self-righteousness and a heaping helping of Dunning Kruger.

      • namaste863

        Okay, you do just that, since you are so goddamn perfect. I hope you have fun paying for the lifetime of therapy bills for your kids when they inevitably discover that they are their own human beings with their own thoughts and emotions who don’t fit within your narrow parameters of acceptability. Asshole.

      • Charybdis

        No amount of “non-labeling” or “recognizing your child in in a state of NON-disease” will make those on the autism spectrum normal, neurotypical, healthy, whatever you want to call it. Nor will wishful thinking, praying or believing in “miracle cures” or “miracle therapies”.
        Because my elder brother has been, is now and will forever be autistic. And let me tell you, it sucks on ice.
        And here’s a bit of anecdata for you: my brother was an early walker and talker (9 months). I was born 6 days after his first birthday and he stopped talking right around then. His autistic traits began to be noticeable at that time. So, you see, I am responsible for his autism. Before my birth: Fine and dandy. After my birth: stopped talking, repetitive behaviors commenced, etc. So it is clearly MY fault. That makes about as much sense as what you are blathering about.

        • Seeing Clearly

          When I said we shouldn’t label people autistic I was implying a healthy person with a nerdy personality being stigmatized as being autistic, actually autistic people or people who are dysfunctional should be healed and cured.

          In regards to it being your fault you have an autistic child it depends, however we live in such an industrial toxic damaged environment, we simply can’t avoid every toxin and cell tower, unfortunately so there will be cases of illness until we collectively stop our insanity as a whole.

          • Charybdis

            How good is your reading comprehension? I never said I had an autistic child. I said I have an autistic BROTHER.
            Years of therapy, medications and a year’s turn in a hospital has not “healed” or “cured” him. He is still as autistic as he was when we were children. He has better coping mechanisms than he used to and can usually control his frustrations and stimming until he is alone or at home and has not had a true meltdown in quite some time. However, the pacing, hand flapping, grimacing and biting of his hand/wrist has not “been cured/healed” any more than his odd body language and flat affect when he speaks has.
            He is what he is. He is gainfully employed, has two college degrees and is fairly self sufficient. He lives with my parents and pays them rent. He drives, attends church, does all the things that people do. Does he think he needs to be “healed” or “cured”? I have no earthly idea. I think in some ways he would like to be more”neurotypicial” so he could date, get married, have kids, etc (although being neurotypical is NOT a guarantee that you get to do those things and being on the autism spectrum does not guarantee that you WON’T do those things), but it’s the way he has been since his earliest memories. It’s a part of what makes him who he is. I don’t think it defines him any more than my red hair and green eyes defines me.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Nerds are not automatically labeled autistic. I know because all my friends and I are nerds, only one is even close to the border of ASD.

        • Seeing Clearly

          It has been suggested Global Warming is playing an indirect role in the autism and chronic illness epidemic.

          • momofone

            This is why it is so important to be able to evaluate the credibility of your sources. “It has been suggested”? By whom? When? Where? How was it studied? Under what circumstances? With what degree of confidence were conclusions drawn? What are the credentials of the people conducting the study? (This is huge, and a place I believe you will go off-track entirely.) Have the findings been replicated? Where were the findings published? (Again, huge in terms of credibility.) There are many additional considerations; vague attribution is as credible as gossip (and frequently amounts to same).

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Its also been suggested that something in the water is making the frogs gay and that there is a child brothel being run by Secretary Clinton in the imaginary basement of a real pizzaria. Check your sources, honey.

    • Heidi_storage

      It’s kind of odd, really; parents of children with Down Syndrome don’t try to rip off the extra chromosome, but love their children and accept them for who they are, while trying to maximize their potential. (Of course, I do realize that a number of expectant parents abort fetuses with Down Syndrome, which may “select” for those parents who are willing to come to terms with their children’s limitations.) I don’t think I’ve ever heard of parents trying to poison their kids with Down Syndrome in the name of “fixing” them.

      • Se Clearly

        @ Heidi Storage

        I think that is odd as well, I acutely think it is backwards.

        I acutely believe we should rip out the extra copy of a chromosome because it is both a mutation, something you shouldn’t have inherited and is also causing diseases by impairing the ability of the cells to function better.

        We rip out tumors and even extra body parts that are a result of mutations so why not rip out mutant disease causing DNA as well when or if we can?

        Humans are not meant to have extra chromosomes that is not natural or normal and is usually the result of unhealthy sperm or eggs caused by toxins or something.

        Therefore, I wholeheartedly believe we should be interested in curing all defects and diseases and illnesses down symptoms no exception autism and ADHD no exception.

        • momofone

          “caused by toxins or something”

          Sources?

          • Seeing Clearly

            Common sense not sources.

            Toxins cause diseases including DNA mutations it is a widely acknowledged fact.

            Just about anywhere you go except the social justice warrior website will tell you DNA mutations and illnesses are caused by toxins.

          • momofone

            That is not an acceptable answer. Either quote your sources or admit that you can’t, and you made the claim because it fits with your beliefs/what you’ve been told/you think it sounds credible.

          • Who?

            ‘Common sense’ and ‘widely accepted facts’ in one post.

            We have reached peak tinfoil.

          • StephanieJR

            Heh, I actually have a picture of Amy with a mini tinfoil hat. Conspiracy Theory Bunny has no time for this horseshit.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af2dcc278992101f0cd3672510d61c4176279a48fa50516ebccdafee260b44ac.jpg

          • Mishimoo

            Sounds like you tried spouting ableist rhetoric on Tumblr, got owned, and are now just a wee bit bitter about the whole thing.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          You simply cannot remove a chromosome from every cell in the body. Or add ones to those with Turners.

          • Seeing Clearly

            I never said we can yet, however if we could that would be the right choice to make.

            People shouldn’t have mutations or defects, it isn’t normal if I chopped off your leg, would you want your leg back if yes, then why don’t you want people who aren’t even born with a leg due to e birth defect caused by a toxin to be able to obtain a limb that is the epitome of insanity and hypocrisy donate a leg today like really you would help typicalize a body while making yours diverse.

          • Azuran

            Look kid, no one here is dreaming to have a disability. No one wishes for their kids to have down syndrome, to be blind or to have any other kind of disease or disability.
            But reality doesnt care. Those things happen and often you cant do anything. So when faced with a situation that you CANNOT change, all you can really do is accept it and learn to work with it and make best of the hand life gave you.
            No amount of yelling for a cure or self pity is going to solve anything.

          • Eater of Worlds

            https://www.elixirgen.com/news-and-events/2017/3/8/new-down-syndrome-therapy-discovered

            Apparenty you can restore some cells to normal. So they would be more like people with mosaic Down Syndrome.

            A baby got some treatment and improved http://health.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/baby-with-down-syndrome-improves-after-stem-cell-treatment/56697617

          • Seeing Clearly

            Thank you for sharing, people say medical disabilities or illness like autism are special and beautiful and I think they have it backwards I think the beautiful thing is acutely seeing your child completely recovered from autism or Down syndrome when we have the medical advancements to cure Down syndrome there are people who have always been in a wheelchair and once they can walk again with a cure is one of those moments that as a parent I could imagine the beauty to finally see your child as a healthy and functioning state again I think that is what true beauty looks like seeing your child healthy for the first time not seeing your child struggling with a medical affliction that is a nightmare not a blessing.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Never once in my life have a heard someone say that the actual medical disability or illness is beautiful. Many, many times I have heard people say that a child with autism or Down syndrome is beautiful. They say that because it is true. All children are beautiful, regardless of them having a severe illness or some type of disability that is visible through how they look or how they behave.

          • Seeing Clearly

            The child is beautiful not the disease.

            The disease is not part of the child it is what is destroying and burdening the child.

            The disease doesn’t make the child more beautiful or is what is beautiful.

            A cure is one of the biggest dream a disabled person should have.

          • Eater of Worlds

            You have just made the most ableist statement I have heard in a very, very long time. Your statements are full of rancor and prejudice. Any child of yours who was not perfect would have a terrible time growing up in your household, and it would sadly be taught the same things you are spouting right now especially if they have any sort of disability.

          • momofone

            So now you also know what other people’s dreams should be?

          • Seeing Clearly

            Yes I stand by what I said, failure or disease or anything that is not good shouldn’t be anyone’s dream.

          • momofone

            You don’t get to choose that (or anything else) for other people. To be frank, at this point in your life you don’t even have your own clear ideas about your own dreams; you know what you’ve been taught and you claim it as your own. At this point it’s all theoretical; you don’t have the life experience to apply at this point. I hope that you will take the opportunity to challenge what you’ve been taught and arrive at your own perspectives, but I have a feeling you seek out people who think and believe as you do, which does not bode well for your future maturity and self-awareness.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Who dreams of loosing some of their abilities? But this is rarely a choice that is given to anyone. Go to bed, child, and in the morning take a long walk and talk to people you don’t normally talk to. More importantly, listen to what they are telling you.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Those who have Body Integrity Identity Disorder! I don’t think it’s officially recognized by the DSM (it might be in the new version) but people have gone as far as packing their leg in dry ice to kill the tissue and have it amputated. It seems like most people with this want to lose a leg. There was a documentary on this woman, you might find it on YouTube.
            And yeah, it’s the Daily Fail but it has her name and everything you need for a quick glimpse http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366260/Body-Integrity-Identity-Disorder-Chloe-Jennings-White-58-disown-legs.html

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Yeah, I’ve heard of them. They are definitely different.

          • Who?

            Who decides what’s good?

            If the answer is based on your skyfriend’s semi-autobiographical ghost-written novel, it’s a bad answer.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            my former pastor would probably like the term “skyfriend” and she’d use it unironically. 🙂 She uses The Bible to justify her social justice tendencies. That woman is liberal as hell. Our high school friend would probably not consider her a Christian, though.

          • MaineJen

            Geez. I remember being 17 and thinking I knew everything.

            The real world is going to be a shocking surprise, kid.

          • Dr Kitty

            So..:
            You don’t have a disability, or know anyone with a disability, do you?

            That’s not necessarily something to be proud of.
            PS: I’m a doctor. I have a disability. It’s not an affliction or a nightmare.

            You are the antithesis (it’s a big word, look it up) of everything I want my children to be as teenagers.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, this is my last Rabbit Facts comment tonight! Shall we play again tomorrow, my delusional child? Or will you finally scurry back under the rock you crawled out under from?

            Did you know that rabbits, like other pets, and indeed humans, can be disabled? I have made friends with other bunny slaves online, many of whom have a special needs rabbit. I have heard of blind rabbits mapping their homes in their head to navigate their environment. I have heard of deaf rabbits learning hand signals to understand their human. I have heard of rabbits that cannot walk due to arthritis or being paralysed still interacting with the world, still full of sass and love (one bun I knew of in particular was quite lively and active despite not moving). I have heard of rabbits with a head tilt that adapt and thrive in spite of quite a severe condition. I have heard of rabbits with only three legs still continuing on with their lives, playing and loving and being naughty.

            I know each of their owners knowing their rabbits so well, so deeply, that they know when their rabbit has a quality of life, when they have that spirit to not just live, but to go beyond expectations. They accept their rabbits; in fact, I know of some that take in disabled bunnies, so that they can be loved and cared for. All these rabbits are lovely and sweet and full of love.

            If these rabbits are worthy of acceptance, of love, of being seeked out and nursed for all their lives, why not people? Are you really so heartless that you would seek to destroy and erase these people, many of whom do not view themselves as disabled, or accept that they are but not as a limitation?

            I can’t believe I have to state the obvious, but: disabled people are people too. Someone with autism, someone blind, someone deaf, someone paralysed; they are as much a person as you are. Even if you are a rather poor example of a person.

            Begone, fowl child, so that you may seek correct knowledge from your betters. Or at least shut up about it.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Disabled people have biological deficits in organization or matter or functionality and while they are not less of a spiritual human the reality is they are burdened ans need a cure— the ultimate help is the help that eradicates the problem.

          • Box of Salt

            Seeing Clearly, “the ultimate help is the help that eradicates the problem.”

            You are now advocating eugenics.

            Are you really a high school kid or are your hiding behind that ignorant persona so you can continuing trolling this site?

            May your “Young Christian” god have mercy on your soul.

          • momofone

            I daresay you have no idea what “the reality” is for people with disabilities.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            What part of Dr. Kitty telling you she’s a medical doctor and disabled has failed to sink in? She’s been disabled from childhood, but her “burden” didn’t stop her from being a doctor in active practice. Would she like it if her disability were to magically disappear? Probably, but it ain’t going to happen any time soon.
            Whatever happened to everyone having their own cross to bear? Did Jesus say this is too heavy, I’m just going to lie down in the street?
            Seems to me that you need more practice at being a good Christian.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t remember anything like that, but I do seem to recall something being said about eyes and beams and specks.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Jus’ talking her/his lingo.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            hmm interesting, ty.

          • Eater of Worlds

            I have an online friend with a child with DS, and is also a journalist who writes on disability issues. He is a medieval historian, just left his teaching job at one university for a staff position at another university because the state he got the job offer in is so much better for people with disabilities and he felt that his son had a much better chance of having a good life as an adult there. The new state spends so much more money on people with disabilities, and more were in true group homes rather than being institutionalized or put in “group homes” that were only that in name but were just another institution.

            Anyway, he was talking about how close we are to being able to use gene therapy to turn off DS and the implications of that. If this is done to an adult with DS, and they suddenly have fewer intellectual limitations, how are they going to cope? Will they still be the same person? Will they be angry that it only worked to gain some more cognitive ability instead of all of it? What implication does this have for every child with DS? What about the parents who can’t afford it, or for those who are wards of the state? What about the parents who have moral or religious objections to changing their children, or are afraid of it hurting their children instead of helping them?

            It’s not as easy as waving a magic wand and there, you’ve taken away DS from everyone who has it and the world is perfect now.

          • swbarnes2

            I don’t think we are that close at all. We’re talking about having to carefully and only partially knock down about a thousand genes, in cells in every tissue and organ in the body. Not happening anytime soon. And it wouldn’t be a “cure” anyway if given to fully developed adults.

          • Eater of Worlds

            He’s talking “close” as it is a real possibility of it happening in the future instead of it all being theoretical, especially with that girl who was treated as an infant. And yeah, I know it wouldn’t be a cure for adults, but what if they were able to do something that decreased the intellectual disability part? He was talking about the what-ifs of this situation.

          • mabelcruet

            I think we’re getting a bit closer with cystic fibrosis-gene therapy is definitely moving in the right direction for that.

          • mabelcruet

            I’m not sure how much of that to believe. Babies with Down syndrome are hypotonic (a bit floppy with low muscle tone) for the first few months, and they generally are a bit slower with their motor skills and development, but they do generally pick up and manage walking and running and everything else. So how much of the improvement after stem cells was due to stem cells, and how much due to normal (albeit slower and delayed) development?

          • swbarnes2

            How can you tell that the baby would not have improved to that extent with no treatment? I mean, the baby got stronger. I think we’d expect that to happen regardless.

            The method looks a hell of a lot like magical thinking. They just injected cultured stem cells willy nilly, and expected them to magically go where they needed to go?

        • StephanieJR

          Congratulations, Rabbit Facts is gifting you with even more information, you stupid tosser!

          Did you know that rabbits can suffer from a myriad of health issues? From dental problems, mostly because of the breeding of flatter faces for cuteness, to digestive issue, such as GI or gut stasis, where the poor bunny gets a tummy blockage and needs to see a vet to be healed or will die, to horrible diseases such as VHD and myxomatosis.

          But guess what? That’s right, pet bunnies can be vaccinated! Hooray! They don’t need to suffer and die horrible deaths.

          My sweet Amy has had some gut issues. My previous rabbits had dental problems. They have never been in perfect health or perfect behaviour. They don’t need to be cured of defects.

          I wish there was a cure for your pig headedness, though. Your sheer determination in clinging to these insane theories is worrying. I wonder if you are suffering from having your head up your arse, you silly little fucknugget.

          • namaste863

            Oh my fucking god, this clown is still in High School. Apparently he/she got a hold of Mommy’s iPhone and decided to try to join the adults in mature conversation. No wonder. Jesus Christ, we have been expecting a child to comprehend adult issues.

          • seeingclearlymedia.weebly.com

            All I see is someone who was walking in darkness responding to the light.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Why are you discriminating or segregating/cherry picking what diseases should be cured and which one need acceptance I say cure them all they are all bad diseases by definition is an affliction and no affliction is good so I say cure them all cure Autism cure down symptoms cure Cancer cure bad vision cure them alllllllllllllllllll I mean all.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            By God, yes, kid, we get to “cherry pick” which diseases currently have a cure, because some diseases do not yet have a cure. There is no cure for a dead nerve. Sure, if the damage wasn’t too bad, it can partially regenerate, but nothing will ever restore my hearing because it’s been too long since the nerve went dark. No amount of proper life style could’ve fixed it, and my parents tried everything medically possible back then. Until they can make new nerves, which is still in the realm of Sci Fi, I’m going to go through life with a purely decorative ear.

          • Azuran

            We are not cherry picking. Not all diseases are curable. There is no cure for autism. What good do you think it would accomplish for people on the spectrum or anyone else with an incurable disease or disability to spend their whole life doing nothing but pitying themselves and crying to be cured?
            Dont you think its better to help them have their place in society, be as independent and productive as possible

        • Azuran

          Seriously, you dont understand the difference between a surgery to remove a tumor and removing an extra chromosome from every single cell in your body? (And you’d probably need to remove the extra chromosome extra early in the pregnancy, so it doesnt affect development)

          Maybe you should do high school biology again.

          • Who?

            Perhaps he needs to start attending the high school he says he should be going to, rather than edumacating himself at home with his skyfriend’s ghost written semi-autobiographical book of fairytales and associated resources.

            Yes, dear reader, Se Clearly is an infant. Or says he is.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Probably hasn’t started yet. I pray for her/his teacher.

          • MaineJen

            “Excuse me teacher, that’s not what it says in the BIBLE”

        • Charybdis

          Then what about spontaneous mutations or point mutations that occur during cell mitosis/meiosis? Or are a result of thymine dimers?

          • Seeing Clearly

            They shouldn’t occur, the body kills its own cells when they mutate just like we prosecute our own people and citizens when they commit a crime, it is not normal for DNA mutations to occur, it is bad for DNA mutations to occur cancer is the result of DNA mutations Down Syndrome is the result of DNA mutations.

            You can lower your risk of DNA mutations to almost nothing by living a healthy lifestyle.

            No mutation is spontaneous, something went wrong with the cell.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            There are dinosaur fossils with evidence of cancer. Don’t remember them eating nothing but burgers and french fries.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Empress of the Iguana People

            There are dinosaur fossils with evidence of cancer. Don’t remember them eating nothing but burgers and french fries.

          • Charybdis

            It IS normal for mutations to occur. They happen all the time. That’s why genetics is A Thing. It’s why you don’t breed blue merles to blue merles, white dogs/cats are often deaf, the vast majority of calico cats are female and some Angus lines have extra legs.
            Things aren’t as simple as dominant vs. recessive genes (Mendelian traits) in a lot of traits. Some are, like cleft chins (dominant), cheek dimples (dominant) and freckles (dominant). Things like hair color, eye color, and the ability to roll your tongue are non-Mendelian traits and are controlled by a number of genes.
            New things come about via mutations. The Rex cats (curly haired cats) were a genetic mutation. Hairless breeds of dogs and cats were a genetic mutation. Red hair was a genetic mutation.
            Mutations happen all the time, mostly they are transcription/translation errors, but they do happen. Why? Because no system is perfect and performs flawlessly every time.

          • Charybdis

            It IS normal for mutations to occur. They happen all the time. That’s why genetics is A Thing. It’s why you don’t breed blue merles to blue merles, white dogs/cats are often deaf, the vast majority of calico cats are female and some Angus lines have extra legs.
            Things aren’t as simple as dominant vs. recessive genes (Mendelian traits) in a lot of traits. Some are, like cleft chins (dominant), cheek dimples (dominant) and freckles (dominant). Things like hair color, eye color, and the ability to roll your tongue are non-Mendelian traits and are controlled by a number of genes.
            New things come about via mutations. The Rex cats (curly haired cats) were a genetic mutation. Hairless breeds of dogs and cats were a genetic mutation. Red hair was a genetic mutation.
            Mutations happen all the time, mostly they are transcription/translation errors, but they do happen. Why? Because no system is perfect and performs flawlessly every time.

          • Box of Salt

            Seeing Clearly “Down Syndrome is the result of DNA mutations.”

            No, it’s not. Down Syndrome is the result of flawed meiosis.

            Learn some biology.

            “lower your risk of DNA mutations to almost nothing by living a healthy lifestyle”

            Would that healthy lifestyle include never going outside into sunlight?

          • Heidi_storage

            Uh…apoptosis isn’t remotely like prosecuting those accused of a crime, spontaneous mutations absolutely do happen, and something like 1/3 of cancers are just pure, plain bad luck and cannot be prevented. Our bodies aren’t perfect.

            Also: There is no such thing as a lifestyle that is purely beneficial in every way. Example: folic acid given in the preconceptional and periconceptional period lowers the risk (not prevents, but lowers the risk) of neural tube defects, which can lead to a range of mild-to-horrendously awful birth defects. There is some suggestion, however, that it may–MAY–raise the risk of autism. If this is true, then you’ve got a tradeoff.

            Sunshine has health benefits. It is also a carcinogen.

            Exercise is generally good for you, unless you overdo it, but it can cause injury ( ask any jogger).

            Water is good for you, unless it’s contaminated, but too much can kill you.

            Vitamin deficiences are bad for you. Vitamin overdoses are also bad for you.

            Cruciferous veggies like broccoli are full of nutrients. They’re also great at retaining harmful heavy metals.

            Fruit has lots of good fiber and vitamins, but is sugary and can be acidic.

            Etc. Bottom line: Reducing health risks is a fine goal…but it can easily be perverted into a cruel religion without basis in reality, in which every misfortune is the sufferer’s own fault.

          • MaineJen

            Oh sweetie. No.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            That’s…not how mutations work. Not any of it. Not at all.

        • MaineJen

          “unhealthy sperm or eggs caused by toxins or something”

          Wow, you are just awful.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          “Extra body parts”? Do I want to know what you’re talking about?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            probably the odd person born with 6 fingers or something.

      • Seeing Clearly

        I am against aborting however in favor of a cure in other words don’t kill just heal.

        • Heidi_storage

          But you can’t edit out that chromosome. So what do you do with your child? How do you treat your child? Is this child “abominable” because of her trisomy? Would your Down Syndrome child want you to change her genome?

          Anomalies like Trisomy 13 and 19 are a bit different, because of the lethality and severity of disability. But people with all sorts of “conditions”–genetic or otherwise–are still comfortable in their own skin, still finding life worth living, and still deserving of dignity. They don’t need to be “fixed” to be considered valuable human beings.

          • Nick Sanders

            Apparently you get out some *very* tiny tweezers…

          • mabelcruet
          • Mishimoo

            That is so awesome!! CRISPR is such a cool thing, I just hope that it continues to be used appropriately.

          • Heidi_storage

            Very cool! It would be awesome to be able to prevent genetic diseases.

        • Dr Kitty

          So…
          You’d carry a foetus affected by anencephaly or Edwards to term , deliver them, and have them suffer pain and suffering, when the alternative is to terminate the pregnancy at a point before they could feel pain?

          Sadist.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I just looked up Edwards Syndrome on wikipedia, which says median life expectancy of live births is 15 DAYS?! That’s grim.

          • mabelcruet

            Some babies with Edwards (trisomy 18) and Patau (trisomy 13) can survive longer-even years, especially if the genotype is mosaic (having a mixed population of cells with some having the normal chromosome complement of 46 and the others having 47). But generally it’s a pretty dire prognosis and a very painful existence. In Edwards, they get muscle contractures so their limbs are stiff and twisted, they frequently have respiratory and cardiac defects so they need ventilation or get very short of breath, they have muscle spasms and seizures, and feeding difficulties. So the babies end up with wires and tubes everywhere and on monitors. And they often have gut problems, particularly omphalocele, where the abdominal wall hasn’t formed properly and the liver and intestine are exposed and bulging outside the body.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Thank you for sharing.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Something like 15% make it passed a year, right?
            Dad beat the odds, too, living 35+ years after given hours to live with his cancer. (probably where my most interesting sister got her resistance from)

          • mabelcruet

            Given your family history, I bet there is a genetics researcher out there who would love to analyse each and every one of you-you’ve enough odd cancer issues to keep a scientist investigating for years.

          • Mishimoo

            Kind of off-topic, but the cancer/research discussions from you two are part of why I contacted my local university about body donation. My dog has thyroid adenocarcinoma and there are only a few things published on it. So I’ve organised that she’ll be necropsied, samples will be preserved for future research projects, and there is good chance of a published case study coming out of it.

          • mabelcruet

            That’s lovely-horrible that your poor dog is unwell, I hope he’s not in pain. But the more we can find out about medical issues, for humans and animals, the better we do for future patients. I’m always humbled by the number of parents who consent to allowing the baby’s tissues to be used for research when I do an autopsy-they have the option to have the tissue samples returned to them, or just retained as part of their medical record, but the majority give consent for the tissue samples to be used for research. The worst thing that could happen to parents has happened to them, and they don’t want it to happen to anyone else-its pure altruism at a time when no one would blame them for saying no.

          • Mishimoo

            It’s what I wanted for my miscarriage, so it just makes sense and I really appreciate hearing your opinion on it. The parents who consent to research samples are absolutely amazing.

            Hailie doesn’t seem to be in pain at the moment – that’s one of my deciding factors for euthanasia, along with seizures or aggression. I’m reasonably certain that there is a secondary brain tumour, which will become painful as things progress. She’s lethargic, has mild ataxia that worsens with sensory input, mild incontinence that we’re managing with old towels (the nappies make her unable to walk), enlarged lymph nodes, and weight loss. The cats like to groom her and snuggle, which is new. I felt sorry for the vet who called to go over details because she was audibly excited about the donation, but felt bad about her excitement. I’m sad to be losing Hailie, but knowing that she might help other dogs (and people) makes it a bit easier.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            *keep a scientist -happily- investigating for years, lol

          • mabelcruet

            Given your family resistance, there’s probably money to be made. Imagine finding the Empress of the Iguana People Gene that protects against cancer, do some jiggery-pokery with the DNA (not sure that’s quite the right technical term), retro-insert it into everyone, and everyone gets resistance! You’d have to trademark yourself though-one of the cases we studied in ethics was John Moore and his ‘stolen’ spleen, a university used his spleen to create a cell line for cancer treatment, and it was ruled that he had no financial interest in it as he had consented to it being disposed of by agreeing to the surgery. And of course, Henrietta Lacks and her immortal cell line.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My genes haven’t yet been put to the test (knock on wood), and my sister’s kind of done with all that. Dad died shortly before my baby was born, so R and I are Dad’s only known adult biological relatives. (He was adopted). I may mention it to her at some point, but with our maternal grandma’s funeral this week, it’s probably not a great time. She did give her miscarried fetus for science. Specifically something to do with the birth control she was using when that baby was conceived.

          • mabelcruet

            Oh, I’m so sorry-I didn’t mean to come across as flippant or disrespectful, especially when you’ve got so much going on. But what a lovely thing for your sister to do-I see this quite a bit in my job. When parents consent to an autopsy on their baby, very many of them give consent for the use of the tissue samples in training or research, I’m always amazed and humbled by how many agree. It’s so incredibly altruistic, no-one would blame them if they said no, and yet they don’t. It’s such an awful time for them, and yet they are thinking of others and want to help so that one day no other parents have to go through this.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            It’s okay, you came across as nerdily fascinated. The baby was lost not long before she became pregnant with her son.

        • Spamamander, pro fun ruiner

          I have a child with Down syndrome.

          If I could “fix” her, so to speak, you’re goddamn right I would. Not because she’s “bad” in any way, shape, or form, but if she could navigate the world without the intellectual limitations and potential health problems I would move heavens and earth for her to do it. I

          But I can’t. It’s genetic. So I do everything humanly possible to ensure she has the easiest time and you will never meet a more loving person.

          During my third pregnancy, my 18 (ish) week u/s showed cysts on the brain. They could be absolutely harmless, or they could be a symptom of trisomy 18 (Edwards syndrome). It’s considered “incompatible with life”. I had an immediate amniocentesis and waited 2 harrowing weeks for the results. My then-husband and I agreed we could not continue a doomed pregnancy, if I made it to term the infant would never attain consciousness and have a short, likely painful existence. It was horrifying to consider ending the pregnancy. We saw him on the ultrasound. He had a name. We’d have to go to another state, and find the funds for the surgery. But we couldn’t have his siblings watch him come into the world just to die.

          Thank dog, it came back 46,XY. I have a healthy son who is turning 18 in a couple of days. But never, ever spout off platitudes about ‘cures’ and bullshit when you’ve never had to experience it.

          • Box of Salt

            Spamamander – Brava!

      • Mishimoo

        Sorry to ruin your faith in humanity some more, but unfortunately, trying to ‘cure’ Down Syndrome with quackery is a thing. Thankfully, it’s with expensive supplements and not bleach!

        Here are two links about it:
        http://www.cdadc.com/ds/downsyndromeglyconutrients.htm and https://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Mannatech/mannatech00.html

        • Spamamander, pro fun ruiner

          Piracetam was really big right when I had my daughter. I went to a Down syndrome support group and it seemed like all anyone talked about was Piracetam and high fiber diets. (A healthy amount of fiber is good for people with DS who may have low bowel motility, but it’s not going to help cognitive function!)

          • Mishimoo

            Ah, but you’re forgetting the magical gut-brain link! 😉

        • Heidi_storage

          Oh, dear, farewell to another illusion. At least it isn’t as popular as “curing” autism.

      • mabelcruet

        I recall reading about a big controversy regarding Down syndrome. Some parents were requesting plastic surgery to make their child look less different-changing their eyes for example. In Down syndrome the tongue can be quite big and interfere with speech and swallowing, so surgery can be done to help that, but there is no medical reason that their eyes needed surgery, it’s purely cosmetic to make the child more ‘normal’ looking. And other parents were saying that cosmetic plastic surgery was unethical and it signalled that the child was ‘wrong’, and this was just to make them fit in with the rest of society, rather than society accepting them as they were.

  • Petticoat Philosopher

    I don’t have anything snarky to say. I can’t even muster anything angry to say. Stuff like this just makes me want to curl up and cry. That poor little girl…

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    I notice that the date on this post is July 9th. Was there any follow up? Did the child survive?

    • Heidi_storage

      Most probably. “Child dies after being administered bleach enemas” would be on the news. Poor kid.

      • Pfruit

        I’m an ER nurse.

        I am sorry to inform you that it would take about 5+ kids all dying of bleach enemas before anyone would find it newsworthy, at least in the US.

        I’ve seen far worse done to kids and it’s hard enough to get CPS to take notice, let alone media.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Oh, FSM, this kid is going to die if someone doesn’t stop the parents. (Note that the father is giving her bleach too.) And all because she doesn’t like her sister being loud. Why not try to teach the sister to be gentle with the autistic older sister and teach the older sister ways to cope with the younger sister’s noise (including getting out of the room when little sis needs to yell)? Instead of torturing the kid.

    • Mishimoo

      Hell, even giving the older sister some ear protectors would be a good option if they don’t care enough to teach the younger sister to be considerate of others. Poor girl 🙁

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Ear protection sounds like an excellent option.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          “Sounds”. That was unintentional.

          • Heidi_storage

            Ba-da-bing!

        • Mishimoo

          My eldest daughter’s friend uses ear protectors to help him deal with the noise overload at school, and I think it’s a great idea. We currently have a spare pair that my youngest uses when he wants to play the recorder loudly so that it’s not painful for him. (And I must add – I am rather impressed by his volume and sound/tone control when he can’t find the ear protectors.)

  • Rebekah Britton

    Bleach is actually sodium hypochlorite. Chlorine dioxide is a stronger oxidation agent than NaClO. I cannot believe that parents who are afraid of chemicals in their food and vaccine knowingly dose their children with a toxic, corrosive chemical that is far more dangerous than the trace amounts of what they call ‘toxins’ in food and vaccines.

    • Eater of Worlds

      They are probably using MMS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement instead of a bottle of Clorox from the laundry section of your local store. Which is still toxic. This solution is really popular with some preppers and some quiverful families for whatever reason, especially the non-vaxxers.

  • Ocean water? She took a poisoned, dehydrated, and potentially starving child and gave her salt water? THAT KILLS PEOPLE!

    • Heidi

      Maybe it was that Sonic beverage. I know it wasn’t for reals. I think it’s something called Quinton. Sounds pretty quacky.

      • Uh, what even? I feel bad I even clicked on the link to their website to read it. It does say it’s seawater with some plankton or algae or something in it, though, so I think it’s still salt water.

  • WhatZeezeesaw

    These people are engaging in child abuse. Full stop.

    The worst of it?

    They will also post pictures of the “parasites” that apparently they’re eradicating… which if you know anything remotely about anatomy, you’ll recognize as… intestinal lining. These people are literally dissolving their children’s intestines because their child is wired differently.

    • shay simmons

      Which is why I have no sympathy for them when a total stranger identifies them on FB and calls CPS.

      • WhatZeezeesaw

        Same here, same here.

    • Seeing Clearly

      Hello Whatzeez and all,

      I think Autism is a very dangerous label to give to children because it is not backed up by medical biomarkers aka a root cause so parents who are desperately looking for answers to the gap of mystery and they often get conned.

      And no autism is not just different brain wiring.

      • swbarnes2

        Migraines and depression don’t have medical biomarkers either. Lots of real medical conditions don’t. Autism is a real condition, therapy can help non-neurotypical people function better in society, even though it can’t “cure” them.

        • Seeing Clearly

          While depression and migraines MAY not have a biomarker it turn out they do have A MARKER ( a cause ) for example, are your bills paid in the case of stress and are you eating well and living a healthy lifestyle.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            A “biomarker” or a “marker” (whatever you may mean by that) and a cause are not even remotely the same thing. BCR-ABL is a biomarker for CML, but it is not the cause. We don’t know what the cause is for the most part. Must be a fake disease, eh?

          • Seeing Clearly

            Physiological behavior is caused by how you interact with the environment in religion this is considered your morality.

            This behavior mentioned above can be fixed (cured) with discipline and things regarding morality not medical procedures.

            Mental illness has to do with your brain having a disease that can be detected and fought with treatments and if medicine is advanced enough it can medically be cured.

            We will do well to be able to distinguish between the two.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            *Blinks several times.* Is it just me or did “seeing clearly” just declare leukemia to be a mental illness curable with better morality? I’m sure that would be news to Sadako Sasaki.

          • Seeing Clearly

            @ The Computer,

            I was taken out of context, FYI no I did not declare leukemia to be a mental illness curable with morality.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Then please clarify what you did say, because I have no other way to interpret your comment in the context of mine.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, I got more fun Rabbit Facts!

            Did you know that rabbits are naturally nervous animals? As they are at the bottom of the food chain and often preyed upon, they approach their environment with caution, often bolting at the first signs of hostility.

            Seems they have a tad more sense than you, ya buggering jobby.

          • Chi

            Except mental illness is never really ‘cured’. It can be MANAGED with both medication, therapy and coping techniques, but it never just goes away and stops being a problem.

            Curing and managing are two very different things.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Maybe ppd, but that’d be about it, I think.

          • Nick Sanders

            Some other cases of depression are also temporary. I had a bout that lasted several months during my third year of college that eventually ended and has never returned, thank God.

          • Chi

            Except if they clear up over time, are they cured or do they just spontaneously resolve?

          • BeatriceC

            Situational depressive episodes are a thing, but aren’t classified as major depressive disorder. Perhaps they should be, as I know many people who are dealing with situational depression or anxiety benefit from medications, and even more benefit from talk therapy.

          • BeatriceC

            PPD isn’t really cured, but self-limiting in many cases. Granted it’s a really long self-limitation, but still, once hormones completely return to normal, which can take months to years depending on duration of lactation (if any lactation at all), many women report their symptoms disappear entirely. Other women find that PPD is just the start of a lifelong journey with depression, and yet others find their existing depression to change in nature or severity in the postpartum period.

            Technically the DSM-V doesn’t have a PPD diagnosis. It’s “Major depressive disorder with postpartum onset”. I don’t think that’s entirely accurate based on what I said above.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            TY for the clarification.
            My depression was already life long, but by god the hormones have taken it to scary places.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I like markers, but I like colored pencils better. 🙂

          • BeatriceC

            I’m just now getting back to this post. Anyway, my kids’ bone condition is the same way. We know that a mutated allele at EXT-1 and/or EXT-2 confirms a positive diagnosis, but we have absolutely no clue why and how that causes the osteochondromas to grow.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, by popular demand, Rabbit Facts are here to stay!

            Did you know that rabbits are herbivores? They eat an exclusive diet of plants; in the wild, mostly grass, roots, and leaves. As pets, unlimited Timothy hay, a small amount of commercial pellets, and a few fresh greens daily

            It seems you mainly diet upon a dire feast of misinformation and utter batshit theories with absolutely no evidence, sense, or thought. I wonder if this build up of stupid has caused you some health problems of your own, namely your notable lack of any self awareness. What a pity.

            To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, piss off and stop being a gobshite.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Tell me what the cause of migraines is.

      • Heidi_storage

        What do you think we should call autism? Children aren’t magically going to improve because they haven’t been “labeled.” I suspect there’s historically been a huge waste of potential because children were written off as “odd,” “different,” or “retarded” without any attempt to understand what was going on, and what we can do to help them negotiate the world.

        • Seeing Clearly

          Hello Heidi, In regards to what we should call autism the best answer to that question is to call it for what it is in other words, to just be honest and call the children out for its traits that could be potential symtops of something unhealthy infecting the child ex. Anti-social or non-verbal or cognitively impaired, we don’t need a fancy, however deceptive and unscientific labels such as autism, which is a one size fits all label lets say the autism spectrum has 50 symptoms and you only need 3 to be deemed autistic well by you telling me you are autistic I don’t precisely know what is wrong with you because autism is literally like blurry vision it doesn’t help you understand what is wrong with you it instead confuses you even more.

          We need to be relying on truth and facts not opinion, the DSM is not rooted in science in other words nothing backs it up it is literally disorders made/named from thin air.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Did you know that there is no biomarker (or bookmarker) for lung cancer? It’s true. Lung cancer is clearly not a real disease. You can have one of more than 50 symptoms and still be diagnosed with it. Heck, you can have no symptoms at all and be diagnosed with it. You can have ALK or EGFR or RAS mutations and still get the same diagnosis. Such a fake disease!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Not to mention that when people have ALK mutations, sometimes doctors call it lung cancer, sometimes they call it lymphoma. Fake diseases. No other explanation. Totally impossible for more than one genetic or epigenetic problem to lead to a given disease or for a single genetic error to cause different effects depending on where it lands.

          • Claire

            You are offending the living hell out of people who know people with autism, and who know what they’re talking about. My kid is on the spectrum and your masturbatory pseudointellectualism disgusts me.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Hello Claire, I will not apologize for my dialogue, however, I am open to hearing about what specifically is offending you out of the things I say and where you see a flaw.

            I am all about things being right if I see an imperfection I will put my interest in fixing it.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, I’ve got all evening to deliver more Rabbit Facts!

            Did you know that rabbits are extremely social? It’s true. They can live in warrens with hundreds of other rabbits, with a unique social structure. A neutered male/female bonded pair of rabbits is what most commonly recommended to keep. They can be very affectionate with each other, grooming and sleeping together happily. Rabbits, however, are also extremely territorial, fighting off rivals and outsiders, often to the death.

            You, meanwhile, seem to be exhibiting quite the talent of alienating everyone here with your idiotic lies. Oh my. I believe you are on the outskirts of this warren.

            To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, hauld yer wheisht and boil yer heid.

          • namaste863

            More rabbit facts!

          • Just FYI, you are currently my favorite person. Scottish insults and random facts about fuzzy bunnies? Winning!

          • StephanieJR
          • mabelcruet

            Is that the top or bottom of bunny feet? I thought they had little jellybean foot pads like cats (can you believe I’ve never once been up close and personal with a bunny-I’m missing out on fluffy snuggles!)

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, you are now offered some Rabbit Facts!

            Did you know that, despite popular portrayal, rabbits do not have pads on their feet, but extra fluffy fur to act as a shock absorber? This is why you should never house a bunny in a wire bottom cage, especially a rex rabbit, as improper flooring can lead to a condition called sore hocks, where there are inflamed and painful wounds on the feet.

            Those are Amy’s back feets, although it’s upside down for some reason.

          • mabelcruet

            Fluffy feet! I wish my cats had fluffy feet like that-but their little pink jellybean toes are cute in their own way. Do rabbitses have claws/toenails?

          • Who?

            So you can identify perfection, or think you can.

            Revealing.

          • Empliau

            Nomad, is that you?

          • Nick Sanders

            Do me a favor, stop talking before I roll my eyes out of my head.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, here we go again!

            Because of their digestive system, rabbits cannot vomit. They can’t expell any fur balls, and they do not need to be fasted before anaesthetic.

            Which leads me to ask a question; is your arse jealous of the shite that comes out your mouth?

            To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, stop being a fanny.

          • Heidi_storage

            Hmmm. I am hoping that you don’t subscribe to the MMS treatment. Best I (a nonexpert) can tell is that we don’t know what causes the sensory/communication/cognitive differences in autistic people, but genetics is a much likelier culprit than parasites.

          • namaste863

            Says somebody who never took a class on the DSM in their life and has no idea how it actually works.

            And before you say “Neither have you,” as a matter of fact I’ve taken 3.

      • Nick Sanders

        http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38955872

        The study uncovered early differences in the part of the brain responsible for high level functions like language – the cerebral cortex – in children who went on to be diagnosed with autism.

        Dr Heather Hazlett, one of the researchers at the University of North Carolina, told the BBC News website: “Very early in the first year of life we see surface brain area differences, that precede the symptoms that people traditionally associate with autism.

        Sounds like a biomarker to me.

      • StephanieJR

        Congratulations, you are still subscribed to Rabbit Facts!

        Did you know that, much like ignorance, rabbits are excellent at multiplying? Two rabbits can have up to a hundred babies in year.

        Due to their large numbers, rabbits can be very destructive. Just look at what they did to Australia! Unfortunately, I believe that they have burrowed into your brain and are nibbling away at your intelligence. Oh dear, there wasn’t much to start with really, was there?

        To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, quit being a bawbag.

        • Seeing Clearly

          @StephanieJR

          Regardless if this trolling is a symptom of being offended or not what I don’t appreciate your trolling (distracting, non productive and off topic content) can you please stop ultimately I can care less if you do but for the sake of not polluting the comments with spam I ask you to please stop.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Did you know that projection is a recognized psychiatric problem? Stephanie’s comments are amusing and informative. I ask her to not stop*.

            *Yes, infinitives can and sometimes should be split in English.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, you are bestowed with a picture of the Great Diva Amy, the rabbit, the legend, my bunny:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/efb9d091cef6f0c98b5eb6a6a690f325c774ba9363a4499edfb9aa9d3fd6bcff.jpg

          • Nick Sanders

            Squishy bunny puddlekins, I wub dem!

          • StephanieJR

            She is my smooshy, squidgy, fuzzy wuzzy, cutie patootie, chubby wittle bunny.

            Fun Rabbit Fact: does have a extra bit of skin around their necks called a dewlap, to pull fur from when nesting. They have inbuilt neck pillows for naps!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0a84de01fa3810496e084cc0387a1f57e9a0fd5d2095780ee9a339e2bf4c86ac.jpg

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            It’s the oft mentioned bunny! I’m so excited 🙂

          • StephanieJR

            You a bunny picture, you get a bunny picture, everyone gets a bunny picture!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55edb90ff270940f04fdd02f0ebd341907c5f517c6dcddf8f303775b321db901.jpg

          • Charybdis

            Bunneh Butz!!!
            She’s gorgeous. I see why you are a bunny slave.

          • Melissa Wickersham

            Adorable bunny!!

          • StephanieJR

            Thanks!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Bunny!

          • Melissa Wickersham

            Very cute bunny!!! Very adorable.

          • Seeing Clearly

            You are a fool.

            This is trolling first hand the spamming of off topic posts to distract.

            @StephanieJR

            If you want to comment on bunny facts go to a bunny blog

            Ultimately, I know you are trolling me because I don’t believe autism is a beautiful or good thing that needs to be accepted, I can have a productive conversation about this but I don’t appreciate your spamming.

          • Claire

            She’s info-jamming you because you’re a hateful dipshit. She is keeping the rest of us from feeling the full brunt of despair that cruelty and bigotry like yours exists. I am so unhappy my smart and sweet child will have to face monsters like you.

          • StephanieJR

            Amy wishes to send you and your darling child sweet bunny kisses; she also hopes you enjoy the picture I just took of her, happily nibbling on the sticks I got her today.

            Fun Rabbit Fact: rabbits teeth never stop growing, they need to chew continuously to wear them down. And they will chew just about anything!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/06c453a14e3f75d793d1bff8b862adbce6b88b25b62294cea8d47bbb771b78f3.jpg

          • namaste863@gmail.com

            Omigunness,so pretty!!

          • Nick Sanders

            I can have a productive conversation about this

            No, you can’t. You are absolutely incapable of it, because that requires reasoning abilities and the ability to understand others, as well as willingness to accept you might be wrong. You’ve demonstrated a complete lack of all three, so at this point, the only useful communication any of us can have with you is to attempt to get you to leave.

          • Seeing Clearly

            Why are you belittling me in a disabling way saying I can’t do stuff notice how you twist everything around to con people into your cause who acutely buy into your crap.

            First of all I have demonstrated both the reasoning abilities and abilities to understand others as well as the desire to have a productive conversation.

            Not understanding you is one thing and not buying into your crap is another.

            You can say I can’t but let me tell you you can have a productive conversation if you desired to just put your ideologies and preconceptions aside and learn the truth for once even the side you are mever told so that you might see the whole picture and your fruits be shown.

            By the way your rant was nothing more than a rant of nonsense.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You are belittling Nick and all the other folks on the spectrum. You also seem to have a thing against people with disabilities in general.

          • momofone

            Oh ok. And your calling another poster a fool is not belittling?

            I’m betting you’re not even in high school.

          • momofone

            “You can say I can’t but let me tell you you can have a productive
            conversation if you desired to just put your ideologies and
            preconceptions aside and learn the truth for once even the side you are
            mever told so that you might see the whole picture and your fruits be
            shown.”

            Oh, the irony.

          • Charybdis

            Ever think of the spamming you are doing?
            Random, interesting facts trump adolescent pontificating.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, I don’t give a shit!

          • Empliau

            Who are you to tell anyone what they can post? As it says in Molesworth, ‘Can it be Stalin?’ I’m a fan of Rabbit Facts – and I don’t appreciate your ‘nym. Did you think you’d show up here and enlighten us? That we’d see the errors of our ways from your posts? It takes a troll to show up and lecture a community, and one hell of an immortal rind to lecture people on the spectrum how they should feel about a ‘cure’.

          • Seeing Clearly

            @Empliau

            I can tell people to post productive comments and shame people who post spam if I want because that is the reputation I want to have and that is one of productivity towards positivity and a cure is something positive and if you have a problem with me being pro-cure and promoting a cure and lecturing on a cure then too bad it’s either me or you in this setting and I pick me.

            I never came here to accommodate anyone’s ego or to agree with anyone for the sake of agreeing I came here to demand facts and truth and I will not put up with the lies and the deception and the evil deeds and backwards do you understand that?

            I value a cure because I value perfection and health and ability and order and functionality and purity.

            If you have a problem with my values too bad because I am not going to change my values from good to evil to accommodate your wickedness and evil deeds.

          • Box of Salt

            Seeing Clearly “I value perfection and health and ability and order and functionality and purity”

            Borg?

          • Mishimoo

            Can’t be part of the Borg – they take on everyone, upgrade them, and integrate them into the community.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Even if a cure for autism existed, it would -not- be sips of bleach.

          • Who?

            So anyone not labelled autistic is perfect, healthy, able,ordered, functional and pure?

            And anyone who disagrees with your take on this is wicked (in the bad way) and intent on evil deeds?

            Oh please.

          • Empliau

            My wickedness and evil deeds – mercy. And here I thought I was just having a quiet morning. Have I been committing atrocities without noticing?

            I have a problem with your values of perfection, health, ability, order, functionality, and purity.

            Perfection is unreachable.
            Ability is inherently subjective.
            Order is frequently totalitarian, and you are welcome to enjoy it in your own life but you have no right to demand anyone else subscribe to your concept of it. Functionality is, like ability, inherently subjective. Purity: say what? Sexual, chemical, moral? I can never see this word without thinking of Ivory soap and ill-advised teenage chastity campaigns.

            I have a problem with your word salad. Too bad? No, I am fine with that.

        • mabelcruet

          Bawbag is such a Scottish word!

          • StephanieJR

            Aye, it is. Most of these I’m minding myself, or asking my mam about, but a few I’ve looked up. I’m trying to be creative rather than outright crude.

          • mabelcruet

            Have you read any Christopher Brookmyre? That’ll expand your Glaswegian swearie vocabulary!

          • StephanieJR

            My brother’s a fan, and I do mind reading a couple a few years ago. We’re highlanders, and both my gran and mum are very Scottish.

          • Dr Kitty

            Bam.
            Heid-the-baw

            I can’t think why these are suddenly at the forefront of my mind…

          • maidmarian555

            My (Scottish) OH comes out with it sometimes, it never fails to make me laugh!

      • Eater of Worlds

        Good god. There are so many diseases out there that are diagnosed by exclusion. There is no blood test that tells you, no x-ray, no MRI, no CT scan, no PET scan, nothing. So much of medicine is a guessing game it would blow your little mind.

        • Dr Kitty

          It’s why SC is still going to school and being taught by people with bachelors degrees… and not actually earning money from treating people after several years of college, multiple professional exams and years of clinical experience..

          I don’t listen to my eight year old’s theories about how to treat sick people (more sweeties, less medicine, no naps), why the hell would I listen to some high school student who can’t form a proper sentence?

          And FFS- being a Christian with no tattoos isn’t a qualification.

          One of my dear friends from uni is in the process of doing serious heart failure research which may revolutionise treatment of the condition-and he’s a gay man who has more tattoos (and probably more partners) than I’ve had hot dinners!!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Hey, some of us have masters! (some states require a masters by a certain point, others that you start work on one by a certain point) Your point’s taken, but remember getting a PhD is pretty pointless in the US. Teachers tend to be considered glorified babysitters and are paid accordingly.

      • Who?

        So how do you know it is not ‘just different brain wiring’ if, as you assert ‘it is not backed up by medical biomarkers aka a root cause’?

      • Roadstergal

        Oh, please, tell me what a biomarker is, in your own words. I’m dying to hear.

  • mabelcruet

    Well she’s not wrong, it will cure the child’s autism. Hard to be autistic when you’re dead.

    Poor, poor child-what has she done to deserve an egg donor like this? I refuse to call that poisoner a mother.

    • Seeing Clearly

      I don’t condone the mother’s actions, however I think we are facing a bigger problem looking at the greater picture and that problem is that autism is not backed up by a bookmaker aka a root cause it is just random traits listed in a book psychiatrists thought where undesirable.

      So parents are left with confusion and look for answers and get conned by snake oil salesmen.

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        Not everything *has* a biomarker. There is no marker for post partum depression, but without medicine I cannot block out the suicidal thoughts that pop into my head 4 dozen times a day.

      • StephanieJR

        Congratulations, you now have a lifetime subscription to Rabbit Facts!

        Did you know that bunnies are cute? They have fuzzy squishy faces, long, floppy ears, round bums and fluffy tails.

        Did you also know that you are an arsepiece? It’s true. What a shame.

        To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, stop talking shite.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        “A bookmarker”? Okay, so I know that was a typo and/or autocorrect fail, but I can’t help but find the idea of needing a bookmarker to make a medical diagnosis hilarious.

      • mabelcruet

        I agree, its a deeper problem, and not just for conditions like autism.

        Medical research and medical knowledge moves very slowly, with very small steps, usually building on work that has gone before. There are really no massive world-shaking breakthroughs or paradigm shifts, its empirical, its little tentative steps or new interpretation of data. With evidence based medicine being considered the ethical approach (i.e. a treatment that has been shown to work), most medical treatments can appear to be quite cautious, and very slow. I don’t work in the pharmaceutical industry, but the time frame for getting a drug through development and trials is years, not months, and this can be hard for patients to accept.

        I was a medical student from 1986-at that point, HIV and AIDS has just made it into the medical syllabus (although there was still some discussion over whether to call it HIV or HTLV). In the 30 years since then, there have been billions of dollars spent on research, huge numbers of researchers involved, huge numbers of patients going through trials. The prognosis for people with HIV has changed out of sight, but we still don’t have a cure as such, and that is for a condition with an enormous public profile and a heck of a lot of funding behind it. Medical practice moves slowly, but patients don’t. They can’t wait years for a treatment to come along, and I can understand completely why people get frustrated with conventional medicine and turn to CAM-unfortunately some CAM practitioners don’t act ethically and instead promise miracles. For an individual with a condition, whether its mental, physical or whatever, they want and need answers, and sometimes conventional medicine can’t give them that. CAM practitioners shouldn’t use that to offer dangerous ‘treatment’ like bleach enemas though, but they do, and they take advantage of a patient’s (or parents) fears and worries in a way which is unethical and downright evil at times.

  • namaste863

    I’m not going to lie. When I first read this, my thought was “Yeah, right, this has got to be satire. Nobody would possibly be stupid enough to ingest bleach. Everyone knows that if you find it in the same aisle as oven cleaner and silver polish, it is not something you want in your body.” So I did a little digging. Dear god, this is actually a thing. That people do. And that people give to their kids. And it makes them crap out burned chunks of intestinal lining. Call CPS.

    • Heidi_storage

      Unfortunately, I have heard of this practice on Science-Based Medicine and Respectful Insolence. I hope the mother will call Poison Control, whose operatives are very nonthreatening, and that she takes their advice.

    • proudaspie

      I have known about this going on for over 15 years. The bleach enema is not a new thing and it has been gaining in popularity. As a proud Aspie with an autistic BIL, I want to pour a whole gallon of bleach down the throats off the asshole parents who do this and give the children to parents who see them as people and not burdens.

      • Heidi_storage

        I’m sorry. A lot of the content you see online has to be hurtful.

        • proudaspie

          It is. That’s why I can’t belong to any mom groups because there is always the ableist assholes who talk shit about their autistic kids. So I am a mom with zero support outside my husband because my in-laws and parents are all too far away because my husband is in the military and we are stationed away from them.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            hugs. People often operate with our brains in park. sigh. I have an acquaintance who, despite being married to a blind person and being friends with a blind couple, couldn’t figure out how a blind parent can tell when a diaper needs to be changed. And she was just being a ditz, not an a-hole.

          • proudaspie

            I have two Master’s degrees and hold down a job where I make $250,000 a year. Yeah, I suck on social cues and can’t make eye contact but people who know me understand and people who don’t just think I’m quirky. My BIL is a lot like me, with a Master’s degree and he just accepted a higher paying job at a Fortune 100 company. We also both volunteer in our communities. So acting like we are some sort of drain on society makes me stabby. Bet he and I contribute more than those bitches.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            My (blind) husband has a masters and supports us on his salary, too, though it’s rather less than yours. That masters is in philosophy, so we knew money was never his primary motivator, lol.

          • proudaspie

            I wanted to make big bucks so I got degrees in business and accounting, and have been in my fields for 15 years. Thus the big salary numbers. What can I say, I love money 😛

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Because you have cents? ;p
            My boyo is a serious ditz, bless him. He does well at his job, though.

          • Heidi_storage

            That sucks. Whenever I see something in, say, HuffingtonPost about life with autism, it’s always written by a neurotypical parent with a child on the spectrum. I wonder to myself what that child would tell me if she could, and what she’ll think of posts like these when she can find them. (“She” used as generic pronoun; I can’t stomach a singular “they.”)

  • jumpygiraffe

    And yet if you mention the bleach protocol for eczema, which actually has been tested and studied and used successfully for some people, a lot of them go all nuts because it is just Clorox and not natural. I actually had someone say they would never allow their child to go anywhere near any chemicals like this, so I guess their kid has never been in a pool.

    • Gæst

      We had a pool when I was a teen, and I found that if I splashed pool water on my face every day (or swam), I saw a decrease in acne.

  • Steph858

    Ascribing this woman’s (she does not deserve to be called a mother) actions to pre-scientific ignorance is far too generous. A pre-evidence-based-medicine exorcist trying to treat mental illness had no way of knowing any better. This sick abuser has access to all the resources she needs to know that giving her daughter bleach will cause nothing but harm.

    • mimbletonia

      Agreed! People hundreds of years ago were doing their loving best with the knowledge & info they had available. This is… this is dangerous, bad-faith, idiocy.

  • MaineJen

    Has anyone reported this group or any of its members to the authorities? I’m completely serious. They’re poisoning their children. This is not OK.

    • Heidi_storage

      Alas, it does not appear that these enemas are illegal–though perhaps that may change, and people do occasionally report these crackpots to CPS. (My Google search history is now sullied with “are bleach enemas illegal.” I am so sad that the answer is not “Of course they’re illegal, you monster.”)

      • fostermom

        It’s not illegal but it is easily grounds for removal by CPS. This is clearly medical negligence and I am sure there are other charges that could be brought. And you can bet your ass that most judges would hear the reason for removal at the 48 hour hearing and flip their shit on the bios.

        -Foster parent for 10+ years now

        • Heidi_storage

          I bow to your superior knowledge. My fear was that the kid would be kept in the home, and that the mother would then lie about her practices and avoid contact with reputable health care professionals, which could be lethal for the child.

          • fostermom

            With that online posting, that would be enough evidence to take the child for 48 hours and get them a medical exam. The first hearing is always 48 hours after the initial intake of the child, and if the charge is anything to do with something a doctor could check out, CPS will take them to the hospital to do so, or the emergency foster parent. Plus this girl is 7, so she hopefully would voice her pain to the social worker, or the worker could hopefully see the repercussions physically to this child. Because there has got to be some easily spotted evidence with forced enemas, throwing up and lack of eating.

            Never a case like this, but have had some munchausen by proxy kids in my home. I have found that judges seem to be more strict on medical “treatments” that children either do not need or are not even real treatments.

          • Poogles

            “Plus this girl is 7, so she hopefully would voice her pain to the social worker”

            Someone mentioned she may be non-verbal.

          • fostermom

            Crap, I missed that part. Still standing by my initial comment that the FB post is enough to warrant detaining the child. Apparently investigations due to FB posts have increased. Which pleases me, as if you are going to be an abusive parent, it’s nice to announce it to the world so they can take your child away from your asshattery.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Still standing by my initial comment that the FB post is enough to warrant detaining the child.

            I know that in our state, there is an initial screening of the report in the state office, before it is sent to local (county) offices. While the bar for removal by CPS is high, it is about safety, and if there is reason to think the child is being endangered, they will remove. Yes, the initial hearing is pretty quick (that 48 hours is as good as I know). In fact, the local judges keep their 1 pm time slot open for this purpose.

            Apparently investigations due to FB posts have increased.

            There has also been a backlash, with complaints that most reports based on social media are due to vindictiveness. However, it’s also somewhat of a strawman – CPS is not investigating because kids don’t get enough iPad time. As I said above, there is a pretty high bar for removing a child, and it has to do with safety.

  • Madtowngirl

    This is sick. Sick, sick, sick. If YOU wouldn’t drink bleach, why in the hell would you put it up your child’s anus?

    • MI Dawn

      Many of these families treat everyone, including themselves, with the CD protocol. It’s nuts.

      • Madtowngirl

        I mean, doesn’t it occur to anyone that this might be harmful when they start bleeding during bowel movements? Uuuuuuuugh.

        • Mishimoo

          Bleeding seems to be regarded as a good thing in some circles; in others, it’s a sign to go back a step or stay at that level of ‘detoxing’. Like in homebirth, it seems to be written off as a variation of normal. It’s ridiculous and dangerous.

        • mabelcruet

          Bleeding means its working, the dangerous humours are leaving the body. It’s back to the ancient Greek theories of medical humorism from 2000 years ago. Obviously, this is hidden knowledge that today’s medical professionals refuse to accept and it’s all part of the Big Pharma/Big Medicine conspiracy to keep cures from patients, so those non-sheeple who educate themselves are able to access these rarefied treatment protocols and thus prove themselves better than the rest of us. I mean, not wanting your kid’s innards to ulcerate, haemorrhage and rot? How primitive are you?

  • mimbletonia

    Ohmigod, I’m going to throw up. That poor little girl. That poor, poor little girl.

  • LaMont

    OTish: I will admit I am getting more and more frustrated and confused by religious leaders (read: Christian leaders) trying to get in on the health care debate on the pro-healthcare side. They often say “Jesus would heal people,” but according to their faith *god/Jesus does heal people*, so why do we need healthcare from humans? Where do we start transgressing against god’s will in our fight back to health? Is it at “keeping people with chronic conditions alive”? Is it at “managing, preventing, and terminating pregnancies”? It’s *certainly* before the acceptance of gender confirmation surgery to them. In the Bible, negative health outcomes are correlated with sin, and positive health outcomes with god’s favor (see every time some barren woman finally pops out a kid b/c god decided she was cool/necessary finally). I’m annoyed that people are trying to normalize viewpoints that explicitly and implicitly use the just-world fallacy to justify letting people die or suffer. On the flip side, I do appreciate that people of faith sometimes *do* worry about worldly outcomes for real people and follow a more enlightened perspective of biblical teaching. I just wish we didn’t consider “faith” a good thing in itself. It is often, if not inherently, an obstacle to goodness. You see in this story what happens when people accept storylines without evidence.

    • Madtowngirl

      It kind of depends on what type of a Christian one claims to be. There are many who swing the the “faith healing” side, while others freely believe that God gave humans the ability to treat diseases, and thus, should. Most Christian teachings believe that life begins at conception, but you’ll find that many Christians also do not believe that abortion should be made illegal. Unfortunately, the ones that shout the loudest are the ones who have the most cognitive dissonance.

      Oddly enough, there are some that say the Bible says that “personhood” begins at birth. They’re pretty far left, though.

      • LaMont

        Well maybe god gave us the ability to treat and cure disease, but what about people who are ungodly and thus don’t deserve help? That accounts for the “I can turn away the children of LGBT parents” doctors. I just wish that so many Christians wouldn’t weasel out of this with the No True Scotsman fallacy. Their religion not only allows for this, but seems to mandate it. Liberals in particular would NEVER accept someone saying “well, *my* version of America is good, so criticizing America isn’t something I have to engage with and is in fact hateful to me,” but they absolutely believe this is true of Christianity and Islam. Religions of peace, love, and life can do no wrong! Jews, however, should be constantly vetted for proper liberal purity despite being by far the most Democratic-voting religious group in the country (more than atheists!). Sigh.

        • Madtowngirl

          Oh, you’re not wrong. I agree with you, they do a lot of weaseling and justifying and backpedaling. I grew up in a very Catholic household, with friends who did this all the time.

          At the risk of brushing against the No True Scotsman fallacy though, it is incredibly interesting how different the views of Christians can be, depending on what denomination (or non) they are apart of. Or even within the same denomination! For example, I have seen some very hateful things said about LGBT persons by Catholics, but then a priest at my own college was accepting of all people, arguing that Jesus said “love thy neighbor,” not “love thy straight, cis, white, Christian neighbor.”

          But I digress. A lot of bullshit has been done in the name of religion, and it should be called out.

        • Petticoat Philosopher

          Yeah, as a progressive Jew, this drives me crazy and is sort of scary. Like, if I can’t count on the left to not treat me with suspicion, who do I have, because I sure don’t have the right. Obviously not all or even most left/liberal people do this but it’s common enough for me to find it disturbing and I’ve been noticing it more and more lately, which as me on edge.

          And yet Christianity always seems to get the benefit of the doubt. (I wouldn’t say that’s true of Islam though. Yes, progressives are more likely to defend Muslims because they are very threatened in America–that’s a good thing. But you will get people professing “progressive” positions who are so knee-jerk against “All Religion”–which is a category so broad it’s basically meaningless–that they’ll happily parrot right-wing attacks on Muslims.)

          I wouldn’t say that Christianity “mandates” things like anti-LGBT discrimination though. I mean, it’s not like there’s actually a lot of scriptural basis for it, and LGBT-affirming Christian positions are as legitimate as anti-LGBT ones, as far where the arguments come from. That’s great. I obviously want Christians to be LGBT-affirming. I just wish that so many LGBT-affirming Christians didn’t then act like their interpretation of Christianity is The Real Christianity, when the homophobic conservative Christian hoards that are the biggest enemy of LGBT rights in the US seem pretty damn real to me, and certainly are real enough to the people they directly harm. And I wish so many liberals didn’t basically back them up because, in America, Christianity is basically assumed to be essentially good as long as you’re A Real Christian.

          What’s so wrong with saying “My interpretation of Christianity is better because it’s morally right and doesn’t harm innocent people” instead of “My interpretation of Christianity is better because it’s The Real Christianity.” Every person who identifies as Christian is a Real Christian. Some folks really need to deal with the fact that that never stopped anyone from also being a Real Asshole.

          • As in many things, I think that Christians could take a page from Jews on this one. I think that ultra-Orthodox Jews are complete and total assholes on many things, and they get a whole lot of things wrong. I would never say they weren’t Jewish, though. And, conversely, they think I’m horribly wrong about things, off the derech, and I make them sad, but they wouldn’t say I’m not Jewish either.

          • LaMont

            That’s the benefit of being in a tribal religion – I’m a Jew because my parents are Jews, and their parents were Jews, etc. It has nothing to do with my statement of faith, which… I don’t have one. I’m an atheist “Secular Jewmanist” (coined by an awesome friend) 🙂

            Meanwhile, Christians look at Westboro and the KKK and say “That’s not Christian”, Muslims look at ISIS and say “that’s not Muslim,” which is like – YES THEY ARE

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Secular Jewmanist, I love it! I don’t consider myself secular exactly, but I am non-theistic. The categories are complicated and not at all discreet but, if you’re Jewish, you probably get that. 😛

            I do look at Muslims saying “That’s not Muslim” differently. It’s not that I think they’re right, but they’re under so much threat here and the extremely powerful right (and some of the not-right) defines Islam by its worst elements. So I can see where that defensive stance comes from. Liberal and moderate Islam is so erased. I know a lot of people, and they’re not all necessarily uneducated people, who seriously don’t understand that there is any Islam anywhere that isn’t horribly oppressive of women. Or that a woman wearing a hijab wasn’t necessarily “forced.” Christianity has cultural bias in its favor and, plus, even people who are very anti-theistic always know at least some self-identified Christians that they know aren’t extremists. Christianity is just way more culturally familiar to people here.

          • LaMont

            Oh I am 100% on board with focusing more on Christianity, especially in the US since they’re religiously oppressing everyone else (and themselves), but it *has to* be possible to believe that everyone deserves respect, good faith, and freedom to practice their religion *and* that fundamentalism is still a problem for many faiths including Islam. When you have the SPLC literally declaring “being an outspoken ex-Muslim” as equivalent to “being a KKK leader” we have a problem.

          • Cynthia

            Some of them would recognize your mother’s status but deny any connection between your social and political views and your Judaism.

            It took me a fairly long time to realize how that worked. Individuals might be embraced as Jewish souls who don’t know any better, like a child raised by wolves (“stolen child” is the language used) and that welcome can come across as extremely warm and open. St the same time, you only get respect for different viewpoints or paths (“derech”) if it falls within certain parameters. So, the same rabbis that might embrace the tattooed biker who never entered a synagogue will throw a fit and toss an Orthodox rabbi like Avi Weiss out of their club for pointing out that there isn’t actually anything in Jewish law that prevents a woman from being a rabbi, just tradition.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            lol, yeah, that “warm, open welcome to the wayward Jews” is the campus Chabadnik approach. God, it’s soooo creepy. (Though I sometimes enjoy messing with them a little bit.)

          • Cynthia

            Full disclosure: I don’t mind campus Chabad, as long as everyone goes in with their eyes open and knows what they are all about. Girl 1 is in touch with them on her campus-to-be, we know the rebbetzin’s mother well and for a number of reasons, we want and need their services for her. Girl 1 is very familiar with Chabad, so it is comfortable for her but she’s also very aware of what she does and does not agree with.

            My concern is with bait-and-switch techniques, making it seem that everything is wonderfully open and tolerant, but then having very different treatment and expectations for those who get more seriously involved. I’m also perfectly fine with seeing them as one particular path and branch within Judaism, which has some aspects that I find unique and compelling, but I’m not okay with anyone pretending that they represent the one and only authentic and historical approach. And yeah, it may be sad but the Lubavitcher Rebbe was in his 90s when he died in 1994, the death occurred in hospital and can be easily confirmed, and no, I don’t think that he just disappeared to hang around with Elvis and Jesus, making random appearances and waiting for a good time to come back.

            My personal ideal (my MIL calls it “your religion”, in a nice way but sort of suggesting that we’ve got our own cult) is taking the best of that warm welcome, but clearly separating it from any upselling, and saying “what if we actually made the religion as good as the outreach image?” In a roundabout way, I suppose that’s exactly what Shlomo Carlebach (minus the creepy allegations) did and what Jewish Renewal did, and then Renewal influenced the Jewish Catalog and the Havura movement, so you do have some of the positive aspects that filtered into some liberal streams in odd ways.

          • Charybdis

            I agree with this. As long as people are getting mired down in the details and using those against each other.
            Broad strokes: God sent His son to be born a human. Jesus (the Son) taught a new way of being (Spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law) which angered the Letter of the Law followers (Pharisees and Sadducees). He hung around with questionable folks (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes) and performed miracles (water to wine, Lazarus, casting out demons into swine). He became the scapegoat sacrifice for human’s sin. He was crucified, died and entombed and rose from the dead in triumph over sin and death. To get into heaven, you have to acknowledge Jesus as the Savior. This is the very basic foundation of Christianity.
            The pesky details: For communion/Eucharist: Do you use real wine or grape juice? Catholics, Lutherans and Orthodox use real wine. Baptists, Southern Baptists use grape juice, because drinking alcohol is a sin. To dance or not to dance? Is Saturday or Sunday considered the Sabbath day? Obsession with “purity culture”; is it A Thing or not? Is smoking considered a sin? Is sex for procreation ONLY? Never mind the more fringe practices like serpent handling and strychnine drinking to “prove” you are right with God, speaking in tongues, etc.
            People get so damn hung up on these details that they forget the basic foundation of their faith is the same. People will argue forever over the details, (Was Jesus married? Should clergy be able to be married? Is alcohol consumption really enough to come to blows over? Why do you consider dancing to be evil? Why can’t nuns serve the same duties as priests?) because these details are where their personal preferences/thoughts/ideas gain traction. Maybe you watched your alcoholic father die young from liver failure, so you feel alcohol is Bad In Any Quantity. You *might* be more inclined to fall in with the “Alcohol is a sin” group who use grape juice for communion. Doesn’t mean that you are right about the alcohol and it doesn’t mean that you are wrong about it either. It just means that *that* particular way of thinking resonates with you, that’s all. And people tend to gravitate towards like-minded individuals and groups to associate with. Just watch out for the echo chamber effect.

          • Roadstergal

            While I generally agree with you (and I’m an atheist since as long as I can accurately remember), I do appreciate people like The Slacktivist actually going through the text – the translations, the context, the conflicting mandates, and it’s been very interesting for me.

            It’s close to what you’re saying about Real Christianity, but it’s more “The bible doesn’t say what you’ve been told it says, and sound bites lose critical context, and therefore those people who are being horrible and claiming to be The Real Christians are not making their case” which I think is a worthwhile exercise.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Oh yeah, I love the Slacktivist! But one of the reasons I love him is that instead of just going “Those people over there are not Real Christians!, I’m not like that, #notallChristians” he actually engages with those people and points out why their arguments and positions are flawed. His perspective seems to be not “You don’t count” which is dismissive of all the people conservative Christians hurt but “You’re wrong and I’m going to tell you why.”

          • LaMont

            Since the Bible is so malleable, though, I feel like it’s hard to land a “you’re wrong” argument. *Maybe* people on the fence (like, say, a devout parent of an LGBT kid) sees an “out” in those arguments and ends up moving to a more tolerant place, so that’s very good. But in general, “you’re wrong” seems *very very* tricky to try on a real believer.

        • Cynthia

          Christianity is a really broad umbrella, and different groups can have entirely different world views and even go to war over differences. So, I’m not really sure how much a more rational or compassionate group can really do about assholes and Whackadoodles.

          I appreciate support for necessary causes. Period.

          I do think that this point is pretty relevant though when it comes to support for denominations that do medical harm as well as good, or groups that assume that good Christian parents shouldn’t face scrutiny by the state ever, or that assume that Christians automatically make better parents and caregivers. So, while it might be nice that the Catholic Church does some valuable work, that is compromised by the fact that the same work can cause lack of access to sexual and reproductive health services. Setting up a hospital is good but having it as the main hospital when you won’t give a woman with an ectopic pregnancy methotrexate is not. Doing foster care in Texas might be good but agencies taking public funds while excluding non-Christian families is not.

          • LaMont

            What I think compassionate/liberal/moderate religious people can do is join atheists in a secular approach to public policy. You shouldn’t support healthcare only because god told you (tho that’s fine), but because it’s a public good that anyone, with any religious background, can understand, with evidence visible to all. You can support institutions, like hospitals and foster care organizations, that operate without a religious mandate, and question the overreach of religion into other areas of life. Articulating compassionate viewpoints with a primarily or solely religious context is catnip to the fundies who will return with “well, no, god actually said [something terrible and probably racist]”. We need to break down religious walls that keep women from accessing healthcare, children from accessing proper science-based educations, and more.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            I think a lot of liberal Christians in particular frame their beliefs that have policy implications in religious terms because they are trying to reach more conservative people, or people who may be on the fence and reason that they will respond to religious language. How well that works is its own question but it seems to work at least some of the time and I’m glad for them to do it because it’s not like I have access to those people. (The issues I have with the waya lot of them tend to do it I have already stated, but I don’t necessarily want them to stop, I just would rather they’d abandon all the No True Scotsman crap.)

            It’s also not at all contradictory to believe that looking out for the public good is a religious imperative, in the sense that people may see it as an important moral teaching of their religion. So it doesn’t have to be either “God wants this” or “Because it’s a public good.” A lot of liberal theists believe that a well-functioning, compassionate society is what God wants and so civic feeling and religious feeling are almost one and and same for them. (That’s not my personal framing but it seems to be a common Christian and Muslim one. I’m Jewish and I consider myself religious in a lot of ways, but I’m not a theistic Jew. And Judaism is much less focused on faith in God than Christianity. What individual Jews believe or don’y believe about God doesn’t even come up all that much unless someone brings it up, in my experience. However, I certainly see working for social justice as an important Jewish teaching, with or without God, so my Judaism definitely informs my actions and priorities.)

            Also, plenty of religious people can be as big on Church/state separation as atheists. In the case of religious minorities, it’s not just a principle, it’s really in our best interest too. The Catholic chokehold on a lot of services is a pretty good example of this (and this is not to knock a lot of individual Catholic social justice activists who do a lot of amazing work, but the encroachment of oppressive Church teachings into essential services is dangerous), as is stuff like the Hobby Lobby ruling. A secular government is best for everyone, religious or not–only people who belong to the most privileged and powerful religious group in a society can afford to not see that.

          • Cynthia

            I see it as a matter of audience.

            There are some valuable and essential conversations that I see, where even people within the more conservative religious movements will discuss, debate and challenge harmful ideas. [Also, don’t push these internal challengers away, even if you don’t agree with their views 100%. They have more access and therefore more ability to bring change that someone with total ideological purity. If I look at someone like Sheila Gregoire at To Love, Honor and Vacuum, she is changing the conversation in evangelical circles on things like sex and relationship dynamics in marriage, plus she’ll call out irresponsible homeschoolers and encourage positive parenting instead of painful punishments. She has the sort of following that someone like me wouldn’t have. Nobody is going to invite me to Focus on the Family radio. Do I agree with all of her pro-life views or her reluctant support for Trump (she didn’t vote)? No, but her audience doesn’t need convincing on those issues, and is able to move the conversation on the other stuff.]

            Then, there are the PR campaigns, explaining to outsiders that horrible thing done doesn’t REALLY reflect the true religion X. They may have a point, but really, they need to be making it to those who are doing asshole things in the name of religion X, and in some cases, letting people know that they are doing this internal work (to the extent that it doesn’t compromise it).

        • Juana

          WTF happened to “the strong don’t need the doctor, but the weak do”? (freely worded)
          How can one claim to be Christian and ignore Jesus’ most basic teachings?

    • Sarah

      See, recent posturings of Pastor Patrick Mahoney re the Charlie Gard case.

      • LaMont

        Ugh the Charlie Gard case makes me see red: when it comes to poor people accessing reliable treatment they’re all “doctors aren’t slaves!” but when it’s parents demanding unreliable treatment, it’s all “doctors need to do whatever the parents want, regardless of best practices and the patient’s well-being!”

  • Empress of the Iguana People

    Hades be merciful! Autism is not cancer and bleach is not chemo. The only theraputic value bleach has is making sure your hospital sheets are clean.

    • Heidi

      I feel pretty sure there’s a large overlap in people who will administer bleach to their child but would run far away from a bottle of Clorox to use in laundry or for household cleaning. :-

      • MI Dawn

        Yep. They deny deny deny that this is bleach.

    • namaste863

      Or as a disinfectant. If memory serves Medecines Sans Frontieres bleached the ever loving shit out of everything during the ebola outbreak a few years back. I think their staff stood in pans of the stuff every time they entered or exited a treatment facility. Pans were placed in the doorways. Granted, that was a low resource setting. Another fun fact: it also apparently ruins the luminol reaction and the gunshot residue test.

    • Seeing Clearly

      Empress,

      What are you implying by saying autism is not cancer are you implying that Autism is not as bad as cancer or that autism is not bad at all?

      Please elaborate.

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        I’m implying that they don’t function in anything like the same manner. Autism is a lifelong variation in the brain and like sight comes in degrees, some of which would be no hindrance at all even in the Paleolithic. Some of which would have been a death sentence back then but not now. Autism cannot be cured but people with autism can usually learn how to operate with us neurotypical folks. None of the therapies that work involve poisons. Some cancers, however, can be cured by very carefully dosed poisons known as chemotherapy and radiation.

        As for the rest, several of our posters are on the spectrum and they will tell you their area of the spectrum at least is no where near as bad as cancer. My cousin is doing very well even if he is on the spectrum. My mother died doped up to the gills so she wouldn’t be in agony from a 2 month battle with pancreatic cancer.

        Is autism bad? I did not say so. It makes life more complicated, certainly, especially for those furthest away from neurotypical. Whether that’s bad is a matter of opinion.

        • Nick Sanders

          You. Rock.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            aw, shucks

      • StephanieJR

        Congratulations, Rabbit Facts is following you everywhere!

        Did you know that rabbit fur is very soft? Particularly with rex and angora breeds, which are also generally docile and snuggly. So sweet!

        I bet cuddling you would be like touching a particularly venomous snake covered in diseased needles. Ouch!

        To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, stop being a bampot.

      • Dr Kitty

        Of course autism isn’t as bad as cancer!

        One is just a different way of processing things, the the other is uncontrolled mitosis!

        Here’s something you may not know-GCHQ and the British Secret Service have a very high rates of ASD employees. Deliberately. People with ASD think “outside the box” and are often very good at cracking codes and working things out that their neurotupical colleagues struggle with.

        Being pragmatic, rather than ableist assholes, the British secret service employ the best person for the job and so have a lot of neuroatypical employees.

        • Se Clearly

          If autism is a different way of processing things then what’s up with the “D” in ASD.

          Diversity is not a disorder and autism is called a disorder or lack of order in the mind so yes I support a cure towards disorders which autism is considered as being.

  • Guest

    I’m I reading that right that her child is throwing up, so losing fluids, and her response is to do enemas??

    I have 2 autistic kids. These “treatments” make me see red. For one thing, my children do not need to be cured. They need help navigating this world that’s not made for them. They certainly do not need to be bleached, tortured, or abused.

    On a completely different note, has anyone here heard of PANS or PANDAS? Some friends of ours have a kid who they think has that and honestly, I feel like it’s something made up. This kid has almost the exact same unusual behaviors as one my kids. I have no idea why they went in this direction versus autism. But I mean, I only know my kids. Is PANDAS really a thing?

    • swbarnes2

      Looks like a real thing…doesn’t mean that it isn’t a quack diagnosis for some:

      https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/pandas/index.shtml

      • MI Dawn

        I have some (very non-woo) friends who had a nephew diagnosed with PANDAS, and another set with a son who had PAN and PANDAS ruled-out. It’s one of those diseases that really hard to diagnose – is almost a diagnosis of eliminating everything else. Unfortunately, it gets co-opted by the woo crowd for almost anything.

        • Guest

          I just find it so peculiar. In our friends’ case, it began with behavior reports from day care and then elementary school, and being baffled (but never doing any kind of behavior evaluation or screening for ASD, ADHD, OCD, etc). Their nephew came down with strep at some point and then got his diagnosis. Our friends then acted on that since I guess their kid and their nephew had similar behaviors, but their kid never had strep. Their pediatrician went along with it all and said that she must have a strep infection that’s not showing up on the strep test (and hold all future vaccines! Of course!). I mean, how can someone have a strep infection that isn’t detectable by the strep test? And is just always there? This is what I find so unbelievable – and perhaps this is where the co-opting by the woo crowd begins? (I get all caught up on this because this is my husband’s best friend from growing up, so I want them to be happy and I want us to actually be able to have our kids play together. But they don’t deal with the behavior side of whatever their kid does, at all. It sucks when both her and my kid are “unfriendly” to each other, but only my kid gets in trouble and gets any strategies on how to deal, and she has it reinforced that everyone else is to blame.)

          • Young CC Prof

            Whether PANDAS is real or not, the theory does not involve an ongoing infection, but a neurological injury from one bout of strep infection, perhaps one that wasn’t recognized at the time. There’s no reason that the child would continue to test positive for strep.

          • Guest

            Ok, that clarifies quite a bit. Perhaps I misunderstood what they meant when they were talking about how they never realized she had strep. I’m still confused about the continuation of antibiotics, though, and stopping vaccination, and no further therapies (though, to be fair, I found it to be pretty hard to determine what best practices are and how to get the appropriate therapy for my kids. Anyone living in a state that doesn’t have good laws protecting access to these therapies, or underfunded school systems, are even worse off at finding the help their kid needs).

          • Young CC Prof

            Yeah, that part suggests this doctor is not evidence based at all.

    • kilda

      it’s a controversial diagnosis. some neurologists believe in it, many don’t.

    • Seeing Clearly

      If your children do not need to be cured then why are they labeled mentally handicapped specifically autism?

      No illness needs our acceptance and when you are falsely labeled ill, you should speak up, however when you are ill you should get a cure if available but more importantly you should want a cure.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        Don’t confuse what you think every should want with what you imagine you would want.

      • Nick Sanders

        I sometimes wonder to myself, “If a ‘cure’ were available, would I take it?”. Sometimes, particularly on bad days, the answer is a nearly unhesitating “yes”, but usually, I’m more concerned about whether I would still be “me” afterwards. Because this isn’t just some sort of infection or physical handicap, it’s a different brain functionality, and it’s part of who I am, for better or worse.

        • Seeing Clearly

          Hello Nick,

          In regards to what the cure will do yo your individuality I think you are absolutely right to have that question and I will do my best on bringing you the answer.

          First of all you are not alone in having this thought, surprisingly, people at some point often have similar thoughts in similar situations for example a poor person who has little might be afraid of becoming wealthy because it will change who they perceive themselves as being, this also happens to people who experience physical disabilities and obviously mental disabilities or illnesses.

          I like to discern and judge based on the paradigm of good and bad by that I mean is what I am going to be putting myself a good thing or a bad thing and quite frankly, if you hold the basic value that everyone should be entitled to a complete, functioning and healthy body that the answer to that question is already yes a cure is the right choice to make.

          Back to is the cure going to take away my individuality, I acutely see it more as the disease or illness or impairment is what takes away your individuality and the cure is getting rid of the layer of paint that covers your true color, beauty and potential.

          Do what you sincerely believe is right and don’t be afraid to question if what you’re doing this right as you come across more information and grow in wisdom.

          • Nick Sanders

            Way to completely miss the point of what I said.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, my hatred for the dangerous, disgusting bullshit you spew forth sustains me in bringing you even more Rabbit Facts!

            Did you know that rabbits live in underground burrows called warrens? They are quite adept at excavation and will often dig to the detriment of the environment; they are not, however, as good as you at digging yourself into a hole.

            To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, take your vile, incomprehensible rhetoric and shove it up your arse, you unmitigated cockwaffle.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          And clearly, we see a prat.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          By the lenses in front of my eyes and my lasik covering insurance, I say that I would not, but if someone would provide some external aids to help with some of the problems (i.e. a display on my glasses that would give me a rough idea of the likely emotion of the person I’m talking to), I would leap to take them.

      • StephanieJR

        Congratulations, Rabbit Facts is getting sick of your shit but is still faithful in bringing you information!

        Did you know that rabbits can be quite intelligent? They are often symbols of tricksters, such as Bugs Bunny, and can be crafty and cunning. They are easily litter trained and can be escape artists.

        You, however, cannot tell your arse from your elbow, or facts from pseudoscience.

        To unsubscribe from Rabbit Facts, stop being a knob.

        • Empliau

          I am enjoying Rabbit Facts. I suggest they be a regular feature.

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, you are presented with some Rabbit Facts as a trial period!

            All domestic rabbits are descended from the European Rabbit, Oryctolagus cuniculus. When most people think of rabbits, they think of these.

            There are Cottontail rabbits in the Americas, of the genus Sylvilagus, which are actually hares. Rabbits, hares and pikas are lagomorphs, not rodents.

            Domestic rabbits have been used as meat, fur, and more recently companion animals. A healthy, neutered and well looked after rabbit can live eight to twelve years.

            The females are does, the male are bucks, and the babies are kits, or kittens. ‘Rabbit’ used to be the name for the young, and ‘coney’ or ‘cunny’ for the adults. You can see why they changed it.

            Would you like to be presented with more Rabbit Facts?

          • Empliau

            Always. I was dismayed that something as awesome as Rabbit Facts was being administered, it seemed, as a corrective. Some of us enjoy the wide spectrum of knowledge in these comments. (I am among the top five fans of cowbell as offered by Mel.)

          • StephanieJR

            Congratulations, Rabbit Facts is a subscription open to all! We have two options: Pleasent or Corrective. Pleasant is on request, Corrctive is for trolls and halfwits.

            Rabbits can be very attention seeking and annoying. For example, I am typing with one hand as I apply pets with the other to my rabbit, Amy, in response to digging the couch. She has me trained well.

            Rabbits are great house pets, although they do need a lot of space and care. They do best in a bonded, neutered, mixed sex pair.

          • BeatriceC

            This is awesome. Perhaps we can have a whole series. You can do Rabbit Facts. I can do Parrot Facts. Azuran (I think I spelled that right), could do general animal facts or fascinating vet facts or something like that. We could keep the trolls busy for weeks.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            I can do random blindy facts. 😉

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Blind adults typically do not need to be helped across the street, especially the ones under 60. They may well have literally crossed said street 1000 times without anyone’s help.
            Blind people can in fact be competent parents. Their fail rate is about the same as among sighted folks. One does not need sight to tell when a diaper needs to be changed.

          • Empliau

            Yes please to Parrot Facts!

          • BeatriceC

            Well, then welcome to Parrot facts!

            There are over 350 species of parrots. They are of the order psittaciformes. All parrots share a couple of common traits, most notably a curved beak and zygodactal feet (four toes, two pointing forward, two pointing backwards). Because there are so many species, their size, plumage, and habitats vary wildly. The smallest parrot is the buff-faced pygmy parrots, which weighs an average of 10g, and the largest is the kakapo, which can weigh up to 4kg. In captivity, the smallest parrot commonly kept as a companion is tie between the parrotlet and the budgie, both about 30g, and the largest commonly kept companion parrot is the hyacinth macaw which can weigh up to 1.5kg.

            Thank you for subscribing to Parrot Facts.

          • Empliau

            Yay! Keep them coming!

          • BeatriceC

            I will save them for trolls for the most part, but with random parrot facts here and there as requested.

          • StephanieJR

            I would love Parrot Facts! I still have plenty Rabbit Facts, or can expand on previous ones (keeping it simple as an introduction for now), although I’ve started to run out of different ways to call trolls idiots. Well, it doesn’t have to end with an insult all the time; just the ones that really piss us off.

  • Heidi

    Just curious – what is H7? I know these quacks promote crap like “vitamin B 17,” but I’ve never heard of this.

  • Heidi

    That poor, poor child is being tortured and abused. This is horrific! To me, it’s scarier than someone who abuses their child with the knowledge that it is abuse. It hasn’t even occurred to this woman to take the child to the ER. Even some child abusers take their children to the ER.

    • LaMont

      People like this are determined that ER docs would be a death sentence.

  • Resident

    This is horrifying

  • mostlyclueless

    Under normal circumstances I think stupidity is its own punishment, but this child is in serious danger. Have authorities been notified?

    • Lilly de Lure

      I agree – this is one for the child protection people rather than the internet, Dr Amy can you (or have you already) pass the original post (with all the identifying info) along to the relevant offices?

  • lawyer jane

    OMG. They are torturing her.

    • And very well might kill her, or scar her alimentary tract and lower intestines so there is irreparable damage. She needs to be removed from that environment immediately and her parents arrested, at the very least for attempted GBH, and possibly attempted murder.

      • LaMont

        This will be hydra-esque – as soon as there are martyrs to this cause, people will entrench and more people will be drawn in. Worth chopping off heads, but beware the proliferation after…

        • Sheven

          Language will be key, I think. “Torturing.” “Abusing.” “Agonizing.” “Scarring.” Stay away from “controversial,” or “attempting to treat.”

          Good intentions don’t matter when you’re torturing a child. It doesn’t matter what they want to do, it matters what they are doing.