Which is greater: antivaxxers’ stupidity or their heartlessness?

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It’s truly one of the great existential questions of the 21st Century. Which is greater: antivaxxers stupidity or their heartlessness?

Antivaxxers latest attempt at “reasoning” involves viciously attacking a mother whose baby died of suffocation, claiming that it must have been a vaccine injury instead.

Anti-vaxxers demonstrate their derangement.

As this article on Romper explains:

On the morning of July 3, Jordan DeRosier posted on Facebook that her infant son, Sloan Valor DeRosier, had unexpectedly died. She wrote a touching message …

One day later, DeRosier shared her son’s cause of death on Facebook. Not because she wanted to, but because she wanted her followers and those who commented on her post to know the correct circumstances that led to Sloan’s death. And vaccines were not to blame.

DeRosier bravely explained:

He was last laid down to bed with this blanket made by his great-great grandmother, and one other blanket, a grey one he had been attached to since birth. They took the grey one he had been found with his head in. He had pulled it through the crib rails somehow and gotten himself stuck in it. You never think it will happen to you. You never think it will be your baby. Please do not put your babies to bed with a blanket. Please. He was 7 months old, I thought because he was crawling, standing on his own, and climbing, that he would be fine with a blanket. This is the face of immense, unfathomable grief, the face of longing, of heartbreak, of self inflicted GUILT. I will NEVER stop feeling responsible. I will relive this for the rest of my life knowing EXACTLY what I could have done differently. Please learn from my world shattering mistake.

That’s why we counsel parents about safe sleep practices, including:

  • Always put babies on their back to sleep for naps and at night…
  • Keep babies near, but in their own crib …
  • Don’t let baby sleep or nap in the same bed with anyone else … Another person, no matter how small, could roll over and smother the baby.
  • Use firm mattress and a tight-fitting sheet in your baby’s crib…
  • Don’t put toys, blankets, pillows, or bumper pads in the crib. These things could make it hard for your baby to breathe.

It couldn’t be clearer; blankets pose a suffocation hazard to babies. The mother put the baby to sleep with a blanket; the baby was found suffocated with his head trapped in the blanket. It’s tragically straightforward.

But not according to antivaxxers:

The grieving mother wrote:

To those who keep commenting and messaging trying to blame vaccines for our sons [sic] death- stop… I will not allow anyone to try and place blame where it does not belong.”

How did antivaxxers “reason” their way to blaming vaccines? In theIf fervid, conspiracy obsessed minds, the “logic” is obvious. A vaccinated baby died; the death must therefore have been caused by vaccines. Never mind that there was no temporal association with vaccination; never mind that the baby was trapped in the blanket; never mind that the baby died of suffocation, not fever or encephalopathy.

It’s yet another example of the breathtaking stupidity of antivaxxers, but it is also an example of their mind boggling heartlessness. How vicious do you have to be to write to a grieving mother in the wake of her baby’s death in order to promote your favorite conspiracy theory? Who does that? Only people who are desperate for validation of their stupidity.

No doubt the antivaxxers thought they were sharing their knowledge. In reality they were merely demonstrating their derangement.

  • Mariel Mariel

    A cure for hbv and all manners of diseases, email: medlab36 gmail.com

  • Who?

    Just a word here in defence of the stupid.

    We’re all a bump on the head, or a few moments too many without oxygen, away from being stupid.

    Stupid is on the list of things that can’t be helped, and just as we should be careful about praising talent, we should be mindful of deriding stupid.

    Vicious is a choice. Lots of smart people are vicious. Deliberately, with motive.

    Assuming that someone vicious is also stupid is like assuming they are also mentally ill: it makes it easier for decent people to place the vicious in the world around them. It’s a patterning exercise.

    And it gives the stupid who are also decent human beings a bad rap.

    • Charybdis

      One of my favorite book passages EVER is from Black Beauty, as it addresses this in a fashion:

      “Only ignorance! only ignorance! how can you talk about only ignorance? Don’t you know that it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness? — and which does the most mischief heaven only knows. If people can say, `Oh! I did not know, I did not mean any harm,’ they think it is all right. I suppose Martha Mulwash did not mean to kill that baby when she dosed it with Dalby and soothing syrups; but she did kill it, and was tried for manslaughter.”

      “And serve her right, too,” said Tom. “A woman should not undertake to nurse a tender little child without knowing what is good and what is bad for it.”

      “Bill Starkey,” continued John, “did not mean to frighten his brother into fits when he dressed up like a ghost and ran after him in the moonlight; but he did; and that bright, handsome little fellow, that might have been the pride of any mother’s heart is just no better than an idiot, and never will be, if he lives to be eighty years old. You were a good deal cut up yourself, Tom, two weeks ago, when those young ladies left your hothouse door open, with a frosty east wind blowing right in; you said it killed a good many of your plants.”

      “A good many!” said Tom; “there was not one of the tender cuttings that was not nipped off. I shall have to strike all over again, and the worst of it is that I don’t know where to go to get fresh ones. I was nearly mad when I came in and saw what was done.”

      “And yet,” said John, “I am sure the young ladies did not mean it; it was only ignorance.”

      That’s the whole passage, but it is the first paragraph that really states it.

    • Gæst

      Good point. Often when I say stupid, what I really mean is someone who is capable of knowing better, but chooses not to. That’s not the same thing as mentally ill. It’s not what I’d call vicious, either, but there it would help to have a separate term.

      • Nick Sanders

        Generally, that’s referred to as “willfully ignorant”.

  • Christy

    How interesting that on a post about the heartlessness of anti-vaxers here comes a troll who, among other drivel, tries to exonerate child abusers.

    • Ima Skeptic

      No, I am not. There are child abusers who are guilty and there are children who have died as a result of vaccines whose parents were wrongly convicted of Shaken Baby Syndrome. Is that too much for you to understand??

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        vaccines don’t create shaken baby syndrome. sheesh.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          If this one keeps it up, I’m going to post random book quotes at it.

          • Ima Skeptic

            It’s reported as a possible reaction to vaccines in some vaccine package inserts. Do you know what a manufacturer vaccine package insert is??

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            “How old are you?” he asked.

            “I am ten,” answered Mary, forgetting herself for the moment, “and so are you.”

            “How do you know that?” he demanded in a surprised voice.

            “Because when you were born the garden door was locked and the key was buried. And it has been locked for ten years.”

          • Ima Skeptic

            You are way off topic there slick!!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            The few books she had read and liked had been fairy-story books, and she had read of secret gardens in some of the stories. Sometimes people went to sleep in them for a hundred years, which she had thought must be rather stupid. She had no intention of going to sleep, and, in fact, she was becoming wider awake every day which passed at Misselthwaite. She was beginning to like to be out of doors; she no longer hated the wind, but enjoyed it. She could run faster, and longer, and she could skip up to a hundred

          • Heidi_storage

            The thing that bothers me about this book–and about “Heidi,” too–is that fresh air seems to be touted as curing serious conditions. Now, you could argue that Colin’s just a bit of a hypochondriac, but Klara in “Heidi” actually gains the ability to walk on fresh air, goat milk, and Heidi’s cheeriness.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Aye, that is true. Might make it more appropriate for this purpose, though, lol

          • N

            Fresh air! See? That’s the reason we don’t neeeeeed vaccines! That’s the reason our ancestors the cavemen were never ever ill, and never ever died except of very old age! It’s because they had a lot of fresh air. It cures everything! EVERYTHING!

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Along similar lines was the story where the heroine’s tears cured her love’s blindness. One of those mad-wife-in-the-attic types. Either by Austen or one of the Brontes, I think.

          • shay simmons

            Rapunzel.

            Please…Jane Austen was way too much of a cynic to write something like that.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, if you’d ever been to a Victorian-era industrial city (try modern Beijing for a taste), you’d believe in the curative powers of fresh air, too. Giving the lungs a break from poisonous soup could cure some people who looked pretty darned sick. Won’t cure cancer, but, combined with good nutrition, it might even produce a tuberculosis remission.

          • coffee_drinker

            When I read the secret garden (in my childhood) I thought it was more about overcoming depression… not ‘fresh air curing serious conditions’. The fresh air was a metaphor?

          • KQ Not Signed In

            The Secret Garden.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s reported as a possible reaction to vaccines in some vaccine package inserts.

            Like hell it is.

            Do you know what a manufacturer vaccine package insert is??

            http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/package-inserts-understanding-what-they.html

          • Anyone who reads package inserts would never take any medication, for any reason, ever. If one person in ten million develops green freckles, it MUST, by law, be described on a package insert as an adverse reaction. In fact, I have, in front of me, a package insert for Pramin, an anti-nausea medication. It gives, as possible adverse reactions, “nausea and vomiting”.

          • TKnyc

            And yet you are willing to treat yourself and your children with supplements, vitamins, herbs, and alternative remedies that are untested, unregulated… they don’t come with package inserts.

          • Eater of Worlds

            You should post quotes from the yearly worst sex in fiction awards. https://literaryreview.co.uk/bad-sex-in-fiction-award This one wasn’t a winner, but it’s worth reading “He jerked off with the determination of someone within sight of Everest’s summit, having lost all his friends and Sherpas, having run out of supplemental oxygen, but preferring death to failure.”

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            lol. Funny, but I’m enjoying a century old kids’ book. 🙂

          • Roadstergal

            I love this.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Staying off topic is safer for you since you don’t know jack shit about vaccines.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            It seemed almost like being shut out of the world in some fairy place

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
          • Charybdis

            And you want us to believe that you do?
            Well, bless your little heart!

          • shay simmons

            Have some sweet tea, darlin’. How’s your mamma and them?

          • Charybdis

            I’d rather have a cold Co’Cola and set a spell on the porch. Mama’s doin’ jes’ fine and is fixin to go out and tend her tomaters. 😛

          • StephanieJR

            We could turn this into a book club; post a chapter to each bullshit response, at least that way there’s something worth reading.

            (I may join in with Watership Down)

          • Heidi_storage

            Please do. It sounds like a most interesting book, but I am too cheap just now to buy it.

          • Gene

            Get thee to the library!

        • KQ Not Signed In

          I see what you did there.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            yeah, i had to add different numbers of periods to actually cut and paste, lol

          • KQ Not Signed In

            I know, because it wouldn’t let me add “I see what you did there” every other time lol…

      • Christy

        I’m confident that I know a good deal more about vaccines than you do.

        • shay simmons

          My cat knows more about vaccines than s/he does.

      • shay simmons

        Yes, it is too much for a rational person with a conscience to understand how someone could claim Shaken Baby Syndrome is caused by vaccines. This is what some of your fellow travelers claim is a vaccine injury:

        I want you to think about a dead baby. This baby was ten weeks old when he died. The autopsy revealed bleeding around the brain, in the eyes and in the spinal column. There were bruises on the sides of his head. Another thing that the autopsy showed was four broken ribs. These fractures had started to heal, and therefore indicated a pattern of physical abuse prior to the date of death. The father admitted to holding the baby by his feet and hitting him shortly before he died.

        http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/07/the-vilest-antivaccine-lie-that-wont-die/

  • Roadstergal

    I usually enjoy feeding the trolls, but the combination of “Won’t someone speak for the child murderers!” and rampant Gish galloping is making this one a lot less fun.

    • KQ Not Signed In

      This one is a particularly nasty example, and a tedious one. I saw the same comments repeatedly copy/pasted by that poster, in multiple threads below. I never once saw the commenter so much as acknowledge anyone else having a point, or that they were repeating themself. it was very tedious.

    • Ima Skeptic

      There are child abusers who are guilty and there are children who have died as a result of vaccines whose parents were wrongly convicted of Shaken Baby Syndrome. Is that too much for you to understand??

      • Empress of the Iguana People

        vaccines don’t create shaken baby syndrome. sheesh..

        • Ima Skeptic

          Do you really believe all the vaccine marketing shills and trolls on the internet? Normal people don’t.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Mr. Craven read the letter twice before he put it back in its envelope. He kept thinking about the dream.

            “I will go back to Misselthwaite,” he said. “Yes, I’ll go at once.”

            And he went through the garden to the villa and ordered Pitcher to prepare for his return to England

          • FormerPhysicist

            I adore that book. This is fun.

          • Azuran

            Normal people actually don’t think pharma shills are a thing.

          • Christina Maxwell

            What would you know about normal people, ‘Gwendolyn’?

          • American guest

            I am probably going to regret posting this. But here goes. I worked in the pharmaceutical industry for thirty years. I’ll be the first to admit, it is a very corrupt industry, that pulls in over a trillion USD in sales and corporate subsidies on the line every year. Drug companies have an insane amount of power and political clout in American society.

            But one thing they do not have is a profit motive to make vaccines. Zero. None. No company is making any money worth talking about producing vaccines. Honestly, they are difficult to produce, difficult to store and ship, and more of a pain in the ass than they are worth, financially. Many are sold at a loss. The truth is, there are a handful of modern pharmaceuticals that are kept in production only because it is an issue of ethics and human rights. To stop producing vaccines, and bring back the disease epidemics of old would be devastating. The public outcry would be too great.

            So my question for you is, why are the conspiracy theories always about these fifty year old vaccines (like MMR) that nobody is making money off of?

            If the antivaccine community is so concerned about drug company conspiracies, why aren’t they mad that certain life-saving medications for cancer patients cost thousands of dollars per dose, and that is price is almost entirely pure profit for the drug company?

            Why on earth does nobody ever formulate conspiracies about the Big Pharma companies best sellers? Here, let me give you a hint: vaccines are not on the list. On that list, there are statin drugs, atypical antipsychotics, pain killers of all varieties, and many antidepressants that should have been pulled from the market years ago, but they are still being sold because THEY MAKE BANK, that’s why.

            So, seriously…where is the logic here? Where is the “healthy skepticism”?
            Why are vaccines, of all things, considered suspect, over all of the other pharmaceutical products?

          • American guest

            Sorry about the typos in this. I posted while severely jetlagged and wrestling with a very uncooperative autocorrect program.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            No worries

          • N

            I think I can explain. Wait, I’ll put my tinfoil hat on, it will help me think… and pretend I’m an antivaxxer. So, it does not matter if vaccines don’t make money for Big Pharma. As vaccines are responsible for EVERYTHING ELSE. See? Vaccines cause every other illness. Ok, give everyone vaccines and don’t gain any money directly. But than they will all have cancer/autism/shaken baby syndrom/broken legs/allergies/whatever-you-want-to-put-in-here and THEN Big Pharma can make big money with all their other baaaad and eeeevil medications. When everyone (at least everyone educated through Dr. Google) knows that if we replaced vaccines with garlic, ginger and coconut oil combined with fresh air, no one would be ill anymore. And those who got ill anyway would be cured immediately. And if not, well, not everyone is mend to live…

      • Roadstergal

        If you caught cowpox, would you consider yourself vaccine-injured?

  • TwinMamaManly

    You are aware that pretty much ANY medical procedure or treatment can carry a risk of death? And how can a medical misadventure be referred to as a “disease”? It’s nonsensical.

    • Who?

      Being alive carries a 100% risk of death.

      Go and play quietly, do, the adults are speaking.

      • TwinMamaManly

        As in, Imaskeptic’s very valid points? No, I’m afraid the lunatics are in charge of the asylum in this comments section.Its just a pity we can’t quarantine you all on an island so you can all die of measles, mumps, polio, tetanus, whooping cough and a general level of f**king stupidity and complete inability to recognise the mountain of scientific, proven, peer-reviewed evidence in front of them.

        • Ima Skeptic

          I’m one of the few people left in America that has real natural immunity that equates to real herd immunity. It is my natural immunity to these diseases that protect people like you.

          • Charybdis

            Would you like to test that theory with some smallpox?

          • Ima Skeptic

            Absolutely.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Charybdis, people like you are hypochondriacs of the worst kind.

          • Charybdis

            How about you explain that statement to the class? Or, more to the point, why do you think I’m a hypochondriac? Hmmm????
            (This should be stunning)

          • Ima Skeptic

            You are pathophobic to the extreme. How many vaccines do you think you’ll need to feel “safe”? The human body contains about 100 trillion cells, but only maybe one in ten of those cells is actually human. The rest are from bacteria, viruses and other microorganisms. And there is no end to the vaccines big pharma can create and get mandated for the whole country or whole world. It’s an excellent business model if you are in to marketing vaccines.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            There was so much to talk about. It seemed as if Colin could never hear enough of Dickon and Captain and Soot and Nut and Shell and the pony whose name was Jump. Mary had run round into the wood with Dickon to see Jump. He was a tiny little shaggy moor pony with thick locks hanging over his eyes and with a pretty face and a nuzzling velvet nose. He was rather thin with living on moor grass but he was as tough and wiry as if the muscle in his little legs had been made of steel springs. He had lifted his head and whinnied softly the moment he saw Dickon and he had trotted up to him and put his head across his shoulder and then Dickon had talked into his ear and Jump had talked back in odd little whinnies and puffs and snorts. Dickon had made him give Mary his small front hoof and kiss her on her cheek with his velvet muzzle.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Gish Gallup bullshit everywhere now that you have outed yourself as a troll.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            The bulbs in the secret garden must have been much astonished. Such nice clear places were made round them that they had all the breathing space they wanted, and really, if Mistress Mary had known it, they began to cheer up under the dark earth and work tremendously

          • momofone

            Oh, the irony.

          • Sue

            An anti-vax numpty flew in
            His or her comments, quite dim
            “Where’s your science?” he/she implored
            While others remained bored
            With cut-pastes from Mr or Ms Pseudonym.

          • Heidi_storage

            Love that book, even if it has a tad bit of racism.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Victorians, sigh. we humans learn from our mistakes, but sometimes much too slowly.

          • Tad bit? I love it too, but it’s more than a little lol.

          • Heidi_storage

            Hey! Martha even says blacks are people, too! Whaddya want, for Pete’s sake?

          • Charybdis

            I am not pathophobic, I work in a biohazardous area. I have had the usual childhood vaccines (those that were required in the late 60’s and 70’s), plus the smallpox inoculation (Mom insisted). I had the live polio vaccine on a sugar cube, got chickenpox the old fashioned way (it was horrible, and I now have had shingles twice due to that “natural” chickenpox infection) and have been kept up to date on my DTaP, because I’m a klutz. I got the Heb B vaccine because of my job and get the flu shot every year because it is provided by my employer. Oh, and in 4th grade I got an gamma globulin shot because my brother came down with hepatitis A.
            I work with human bodily fluids every day, so I use universal precautions to protect myself. Hep B is transmitted through bodily fluids, so I got the Hep B series to protect against that. Have had my titers checked and I’m good.
            My son got all the currently required childhood vaccines and is going for his second HPV vaccine next month. So, no. Not afraid of pathogens, but I have had several family members who have been immunocompromised for differing reasons, plus some medically fragile children attend DS’s school. It’s a simple decision. Plus, I don’t want my son to have to suffer any of these diseases. He had chickenpox at 9 months old, too young for the vaccine. So now, he gets the virus laying dormant in his nervous system, just waiting to ambush him in the form of shingles. Plus he has some scarring from the chickenpox as well.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Even “good” titers don’t prove immunity. Explain primary and secondary vaccine failure.

          • Charybdis

            Some people don’t seroconvert when they have a VPD. There is a regular poster here whose oldest child has had whooping cough 3 times, despite getting the vaccine AND having the disease, so he doesn’t seroconvert. Same with people who have had chicken pox more than once in their lives. In the case of being vaccinated this would be considered “primary” failure. But what about the poor souls who have had the “natural” disease and still don’t have immunity? That’s not a vaccination failure at all.
            Secondary failure is considered to be contracting a milder form of the illness when exposed/infected instead of not developing it at all. This happens with the flu vaccine and sometimes with the MMR, if I’m not mistaken. So you still get sick, but it is not nearly as severe as it would have been had you not had SOME immune response to the vaccine.
            Titers DO indicate the body has developed antibodies to an antigen.
            Anything else?

          • Azuran

            still better than no titters. Do you only do things if you are absolutely 100% guaranteed it will work?

          • Sue

            Explain body failure after life-threatening vaccine-preventable infections. Oh, and sero-conversion failure after surviving “natcheral” infection.

          • Eater of Worlds

            People can get shingles after being vaccinated. You’re less likely to get it because the strains in vaccines are less likely to reactivate. That doesn’t mean 100% though. Another reason is that when you’re exposed to chicken pox in the wild (the kids you bumped into at the mall have chicken pox) your system gets an immunity boost from the pox exposure. Except that’s becoming increasingly rare in the US, so you don’t get the immunity boost and that can increase the chances of shingles. I still would prefer to have had the opportunity for a chickenpox vaccine.

            Have you thought about getting the vaccine anyway? Apparently the shingles vaccine is just a stronger chicken pox vaccine, and if you get shingles after the vaccine it can last a shorter time and be less painful. I’m assuming it works by the bump in exposure causing a greater immune response, similar to how you’d get the response in the natural exposure way I described. Your doctor can give it to you, but your insurance might not pay if you don’t fit the age ranges. Getting shingles repeatedly at a young age might be enough reason for insurance to cover it.

          • Charybdis

            I asked about the shingles vaccine because of the two bouts of shingles. No dice. I’m not old enough.

          • TwinMamaManly

            And BOOM! Smack down on Ima Skeptic.

          • Azuran

            It’s a terribly bad business model. treating illness is much more profitable than making vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders
          • TwinMamaManly

            Give me ASD any day after watching that, and its not fatal….

          • Roadstergal

            What’s funny is that vaccines make it possible to be _less_ pathophobic. If you’re vaccinated against the real nasties, you can be more blasé about the rest. We’ve all heard the stories of the parents who don’t vaccinate their kids against tetanus – and therefore have to be extra-careful to protect them from dirt and limit their play outside. I was vaccinated against tetanus, so I could go to town in the grass and dirt outside; thanks to being protected against all of the relevant VPDs at the time, I was _more_ free to interact with the benign prokaryotes around us.

          • Azuran

            How about tetanus?

          • MWguest

            How about ebola?

          • Azuran

            So…..if you are one of the few people with natural immunity, and only natural immunity provides ‘real’ herd immunity, how can you actually achieve herd immunity if there is only a few of you?
            I don’t think you know how herd immunity works.

          • TwinMamaManly

            And where did you acquire said immunity? Kale smoothies with a shot of placenta?

          • MWguest

            You’re your own herd? Trying to follow the “logic” here.

          • momofone

            I wondered the same thing.

          • moto_librarian

            Natural immunity wanes too, dumbass.

      • TwinMamaManly

        After reading further Who?, I think we may actually be on the same side here. I am staunch pro-vaxx, that comment was intended to be a response to Imaskeptic but didn’t get properly attributed – in relation to that ridiculous list of every single disease, ailment, condition known to mankind being attributed to vaccines.

        • Who?

          Disqus will make fools of us all…

      • Ima Skeptic

        I’ll live longer without vaccines.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          vaccines don’t create shaken baby syndrome. sheesh

        • TwinMamaManly

          So you have a direct line to God now?

  • TwinMamaManly

    So where did you get your medical degree? Science degree? Biology degree? ….. crickets

    • Azuran

      From Boston University School of Medicine. It’s right up there, top right corner.

      • TwinMamaManly

        Sorry that was meant as response for Ima Skeptic not general comments. Pro-vaxx and science and medical fraternity all the way here! Apologies. Keep fighting the good fight please – stoopid vs. science.

        • Ima Skeptic

          Vaccine shills and trolls have hi-jacked the word “science” and bastardized it!!!

          • TwinMamaManly

            “Shills” and “Trolls” AGAIN Ima Skeptic – we’re up to…5?

        • Azuran

          ah, seems like disqus is messing up again…..it does that

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      “I have a master’s degree….in SCIENCE!”

      • TwinMamaManly

        Sorry that was meant as response for Ima Skeptic not general comments. Pro-vaxx and science and medical fraternity all the way here! Apologies. Keep fighting the good fight please – stoopid vs. science.

        • Ima Skeptic

          The gold standard for science would be using valid control groups such as the totally unvaccinated population. There is no gold standard of science applied to vaccines. At all. Its basically bunk.

          • TwinMamaManly

            I think you have to, hands down, be the stupidest anti-vaxxer I’ve ever encountered. If you used the unvaccinated population most of you would be dead or disfigured or disabled or infertile – then again maybe you’re genius, most of the stupid would be reduced by natural selection.

          • MWguest

            “…the stupidest anti-vaxxer I’ve ever encountered…”
            Considering the field, this is an impressive distinction.

          • Nick Sanders
          • We’ve done that. It’s amazing. In the real world, we compare disease rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts. Shockingly, as vaccine rates rise, disease rates fall. Every. Single. Time. Every. Single. Place.

          • kfunk937

            Would you like to be randomised into the placebo control group for this RCT?

          • FallsAngel

            What kfunk said, plus – it is against the Helsinki accords to withhold a proven therapy for research purposes, e.g. a proven, licensed vaccine. New vaccines are tested against placebo, replacement vaccines are tested against the approved version, e.g. Gardasil 9 was tested against Gardasil 4.

          • Who?

            So would you put yourself or your child into this study, knowing you/child might get the vax?

            No? Sit down and be quiet.

          • Roadstergal

            Nobody has ever done the gold standard test for seatbelt use. It’d be easy – all you’d have to do would be to recruit balanced cohorts to be randomized into either seatbelt or non-seatbelt use, then rammed into a wall in a car. This would answer the lingering question of whether seatbelts work – and are worth the well-documented seatbelt injuries – once and for all. Will you sign up for this trial? I’m having a mite bit of trouble getting it through an IRB, but having willing participants lined up might help.

      • SciGuy

        Did you earn it studying the nooth grush on your toothbrush?

  • Roadstergal

    Her babies were whisked away! How will they bond??

    • TwinMamaManly

      My babies were whisked away – basically because they would have died otherwise and spent the first few weeks in high level Newborn ICU – and we bonded just fine.

  • Jesus baby

    Here’s a Vaxxed interview by Polly Tommey of a poor woman who blames herself for her daughter dying from acute leukemia, believing she caused it by giving her Gardasil. Tommey let’s her go right on believing it and completely exploits her.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH_d9qcZeIg&feature=youtu.be

    • Sue

      This is devastatingly cruel.

      The poor girl had leukaemia diagnosed relatively late, and died of sepsis during treatment. Thankfully, acute leukaemia in children is now almost always curable.

      How awful to re-inforce this woman’s terrible guilt that she “gave” her the cancer. These people are despicable.

      • Ima Skeptic

        You are a troll with absolutely no science.

        • Amazed

          Funny than a parachuting anti-vaxxer murderer insults regulars by calling them trolls.

          Rush back to the abandoned island that you belong. And take all other anti-vax waste with you.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Back up your claims with some science or you can’t be taken seriously. Vaccine marketing propaganda just doesn’t cut it.

          • Sue

            Hands up everyone who wants a fly-in, anonymous anti-vaxer to “take them seriously”? Anyone?

            Sorry, pet, nobody put their hand up.

          • Ima Skeptic

            You lied about the theories of Vitamin C being disproven.

          • Sue

            Oh? Show us the evidence that I “lied”. Something more recent than last century, please.

          • TwinMamaManly

            Honestly, are you that stupid and insensitive that you would equate that ridiculous “theory” with a poor mother who is being misinformed and misled that her daughter’s tragic death was directly attributable to something she did?

        • TwinMamaManly

          Because anti-vaxx sociopolitical ideology = science?

        • Charybdis

          Then what, exactly, are you?

        • Christina Maxwell

          And you, madam, are a moron with absolutely no brain.

    • Ima Skeptic

      Even more alarming, Dr Theresa Deisher, lead scientist and SCPI founder noted that, “Not only are the human fetal contaminated vaccines associated with autistic disorder throughout the world, but also with epidemic childhood leukemia and lymphomas.”
      http://soundchoice.org/SCPIpressrelease092014.pdf

      • Sue

        EVEN MORE alarming, Theresa Deisher combines pseudoscience and religion to spread misinformation about vaccines.

        https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/aborted-fetal-tissue-and-vaccines-combining-pseudoscience-and-religion-to-demonize-vaccines-2/

        • Ima Skeptic

          ScienceBasedMedicine is another vaccine marketing blog. They aren’t credible.

          • Sue

            “Ima Skeptic” is another anonymous anti-vax numpty.

          • Ima Skeptic

            You are just another cheep internet vaccine marketing shill and troll. You’ve proven that repeatedly.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            “No,” he answered. “They daren’t.”

            “Why?” asked Mary.

            “Because I should have been afraid you would see me. I won’t let people see me and talk me over.”

            “Why?” Mary asked again, feeling more mystified every moment.

            “Because I am like this always, ill and having to lie down. My father won’t let people talk me over either. The servants are not allowed to speak about me. If I live I may be a hunchback, but I shan’t live. My father hates to think I may be like him.”

          • Sue

            I don’t “cheep” much, but I do tweet.

          • TwinMamaManly

            If you keep saying “shill” and “troll” I am sure your credibility will increase

          • Azuran

            If you write it three times while in the dark, a vaccine injured troll comes out of the computer screen and vaccinate you!!!!

          • Who?

            none of Sue’s very valid points addressed, I notice.

            you aren’t getting any smarter avoiding that homework.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I’m still waiting for Sue to show me the science on how Vitamin C was disproven to be related to Shaken Baby Syndrome in relation to vaccines. She needs to provide valid sources, citations and references. Not some vaccine marketing blog.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            He lay thinking a few minutes, as he had done before, and then he spoke again.

            “I think you shall be a secret, too,” he said. “I will not tell them until they find out. I can always send the nurse out of the room and say that I want to be by myself. Do you know Martha?”

            “Yes, I know her very well,” said Mary. “She waits on me.”

            He nodded his head toward the outer corridor.

          • Ima Skeptic

            And you are another vaccine marketing shill and troll. Well done for outing yourself.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            “Were they?” said Mary. “How many things she knows, doesn’t she?”

            “Eh!” said Martha. “It’s like she says: ‘A woman as brings up twelve children learns something besides her A B C. Children’s as good as ‘rithmetic to set you findin’ out things.'”

            “How much would a spade cost—a little one?” Mary asked.

            “Well,” was Martha’s reflective answer, “at Thwaite village there’s a shop or so an’ I saw little garden sets with a spade an’ a rake an’ a fork all tied together for two shillings. An’ they was stout enough to work with, too.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Who was the poster I used to respond to by quoting sections of Lost Princess of Oz?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It was Brooke, I remember

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Hope you didn’t mind me burgling your idea. 🙂

          • Sue

            I’ve discussed the clinical features of scurvy already. It just seems this anti-vax numpty didn’t understand. Anti-vaxers generally don;t have any clue about clinical diagnosis.

            That’s how they come up with the old trope “Polio hasn’t gone – it’s just been re-named!” Sigh.

          • Charybdis

            And all your “sources” are impeccable, with no slant or bias to them?
            *Pats head* Aren’t you cute?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            You say that like its a bad thing, dear. Although the pcp docs there only “sell” vaccines to their patients through their insurance like docs everywhere.

      • Jesus baby

        You should read your own link some day. Deisher claims the human cell line WI-38, which is used to grow viruses for the MMR and chicken pox vaccines, is contaminated with human endogenous retroviruses HERVs). Not sure why she believes that, but Gardasil isn’t manufactured with human cell lines. It’s grown in yeast. So suck it.

    • Ima Skeptic

      And before you call Dr. Theresa Deisher a “quack” you need to know what the word “quack” means. The word “quack” began as the code word for “competition”. That is all it means. It doesn’t mean you are, or ever were, wrong about anything. It’s just not the damning slur you think it is.

      • Sue

        I don’t know what Theresa Deisher has to do with this terrible interview video, but I do have some interesting information about the term “quack”.

        According to my source, “Quack, in the sense of a medical impostor, is a shortening of the old Dutch quacksalver (spelled kwakzalver in the modern Dutch), which originally meant a person who cures with home remedies, and then came to mean one using false cures or knowledge.”

        I also learned about Theresa Deisher:
        http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/24/more-horrible-antivaccine-science-from-theresa-deisher/

        Thanks for visiting, “Ima”. ANother great learning opportunity – not from what you said, but what you didn’t say.

        • Ima Skeptic

          ScienceBlogs is a vaccine marketing blog. Can you find anything less biased?

          • Sue

            Teenage troll – don’t you have any homework to do?

            FYI, David Gorski is a surgical Oncologist. You are indirectly correct, though – vaccines are part of science-based medicine.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Without using valid control groups such as the totally unvaccinated population, you don’t have any science. You have a religion. You hi-jacked the word “science” and bastardized it.

          • Azuran

            No one used a control group made of real, living, humans to test seatbelts.
            No babies are used while testing car seats.
            Therefore, we have 0 proof of their safety or efficacy.
            Because the ONLY way to ever test anything requires human sacrifice.

            Or you know, maybe you are just stupid and there are A LOT of other ways to test vaccines.

          • Roadstergal

            Ha, I made my comment above without seeing yours down here… not that it’ll read them or understand.

          • TwinMamaManly

            How about the Australian Vaccination-skeptics Network? I mean, that is an absolutely unbiased, skientific, completely without political agenda (mis)”information” website! (LMAO)

        • Ima Skeptic

          Are you also marketing vaccines on the internet with ScienceBlogs?

      • mabelcruet

        Languages change and evolve over time: the meaning of words changes and evolves over time. Unlike anti-vaxxers, who don’t evolve, don’t change and don’t grow or learn.

    • Heidi_storage

      Poor woman! That’s hideous.

  • Ima Skeptic

    As the self-proclaimed expert on vaccines, can you tell me if all those innocent parents of Shaking Baby Syndrome were ever released from prison?!?
    On PubMed.
    “Elevated blood histamine caused by vaccinations and Vitamin C deficiency may mimic the shaken baby syndrome.”
    “The findings of subdural hematoma and retinal hemorrhages in infants, without any documented history of major trauma, do not always indicate child abuse. A combination of ascorbate depletion and the injection of foreign proteins can cause a very high blood histamine level, leading to capillary fragility and venular bleeding. This can be prevented by the administration of vitamin C.”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15050101
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987704000441

    Caffey Revisited — “A Commentary On The Origin of Shaken Baby Syndrome”, C. Alan B Clemetson, MD.
    http://www.jpands.org/vol11no1/clemetson.pdf

    “Shaken Baby Syndrome, Abusive Head Trauma and Actual Innocence: Getting It Right”
    https://www.scribd.com/document/194393563/Drs-Squier-and-Barnes-and-Wisconsin-Law-Report

    • Katie Brockie

      This sounds like an attempt to defend baby killers.

      • Roadstergal

        It is overtly and aggressively a call to exonerate baby killers. It’s a Thing with them. Anti-vaxxers have not a shred of humanity.

      • MI Dawn

        Oh, Ima does defend them. After all, babies don’t die from being shaken and thrown against a wall. It’s all due to the vaccines.

        Ima: tip: any time you use a article from JAPANDS, you lose automatically.

    • Sue

      What an ignorant comment.

      First, Dr Amy is not a “Self-proclaimed expert on vaccines”, but, having medical training, she holds far more expertise on immunology that those who have never studied it.

      Next, your comment also shows a lack of understanding of forensics. The are multiple indicators of shaking trauma – not just a single clinical finding. As in medical diagnosis, forensic diagnosis involves integrating a combination of elucidating details of the history, physical examination and tests. Then, the person has to be criminally convicted. The combined systems aren’t perfect, but they are much more accurate than anti-vaxer pseudo-science.

      FYI, Vit C deficiency manifests as clinical scurvy – not isolated capillary fragility. Children do not present with subdural and retinal haemorrhages in the absence of other signs of scurvy, which include gum disease, pain and swelling over bones and joints. If it progresses to capillary fragility, this is seen as sub-periosteal and subcutaneous (skin) small bruises (petechiae) scattered over the body.

      Author Clemetson is a retired English obstetrician who developed a theory about Vit C in the 1960s, around the time that Kalokerinos was also postulating Vit C deficiency for a range of conditions. Modern science has disproven these theories.

      Antivax numpties know nothing about clinical diagnosis, and therefore can make ignorant and tragic errors.

      • Ima Skeptic

        Modern science has disproven these theories? Please provide references, sources and citations for that.

        • Sue

          You want “references, sources and citations” when all you do is cut-paste from conspiracy sites?

          Very amusing.

          Go study medical history taking, anatomy, physiology, pathology, histology, haematology, and then we can talk.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Do you know how to find PubMed? Peer-reviewed studies? I don’t believe you do. And I don’t believe what you are claiming.

          • Sue

            PubMed? I even read hard copy medical journals!

            Ever opened one?

            ANd what makes you refer to all that stuff from the 60’s and 70’s? The internet didn’t exist then – science has moved on.

            Can’t you cut-paste from something more current?

          • Ima Skeptic

            I don’t believe anything you are saying. Not one thing.

          • Sue

            Waaaaaa! Pseudonymous anti-vax numpty doesn’t believe me. 🙁

          • Nick Sanders

            So, you’re saying you think the internet existed in the 60’s and science hasn’t discovered anything new since then?

          • Ima Skeptic

            All you know how to do is waste other peoples time. A troll’s purpose is to be given more credibility than he/she deserves, and to suck people into useless, pointless, never-ending, emotionally-draining, ranting discussions full of verbal loops and “word labyrinths”, playing people against each other, hurting their feelings, and wasting their time and emotional energy. That is YOU.

          • Christina Maxwell

            Oh the irony!

          • TwinMamaManly

            If your feelings are hurt and your time is being wasted, Ima Skeptic, why are you here? Are you offended that your stupidity and wilful ignorance is being pointed out by people far smarter and more educated than yourself? Perhaps this is your time to now go back to your anti-vaxx echo chamber and be reassured by your fellow wilful ignoramuses.

      • Ima Skeptic

        Amiel (1975) described striking increase in cerebral vascular permeability in mice within 24 hours of intravenous infusion of Bordetella pertussis vaccine. This declined within 48 hours but remained at a fractionally higher level at 7 days. The effect was increased by a second administration of pertussis vaccine 24 hours after the first and suggested that changes in cerebral blood vessels may be involved in the evolution of encephalopathy attributed to Bordetella pertussis vaccine in man.

      • Ima Skeptic

        Hiller (1972), an Australian formally qualified roentgenologist, demonstrated that Caffey’s misunderstood bizarre fractures are in fact caused by scurvy, even though he did not explain what actually caused scurvy in small babies.

        • TwinMamaManly

          Eat an orange. FACT.

        • Nick Sanders

          I have to explain this to so many people, that maybe I should open a school or something, but putting the word “fact” in all caps next to a statement doesn’t actually make it factual. I realize it’s a very common misconception, and I have no idea how it got started, but just because a lot of people believe in it, that doesn’t make it true.

      • Ima Skeptic

        “The mistaken diagnosis of child abuse. A form of medical abuse?”
        “We report ten cases where allegations of abuse were lodged against parents because the treating physicians in the emergency room mistook life-threatening illness or postmortem artifacts for inflicted injury. In all cases the families were from the inner city, and with two exceptions the involved institutions were small hospitals without pediatric personnel present in the emergency department. Although the histories related by the parents were in all cases truthful and consistent with the results of physical examinations of the child, the involved physicians failed to make a correct diagnosis.”
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4036918

        • Sue

          ” treating physicians in the emergency room mistook life-threatening illness or postmortem artifacts for inflicted injury. ”

          Emergency physicians were treating people POST-MORTEM? Pull the other one.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I’m not interested in your word games.

          • Sue

            But we’re all interested in de-bunking your nonsense.

          • Ima Skeptic

            You need to come up with some science if you want to be taken seriously.

          • Sue

            That’s really funny, false-name.

            As a practicing medical specialist, I am already “taken seriously”. Do I need some anonymous anti-vaxer to take me seriously? Not so much.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I don’t believe you practice anything but trolling the internet telling lies in order to market vaccines.

          • Sue

            You also “believe” vaccines can cause “Gulf War SYndrome”. Should we therefore care what you, anonymous person, believe or don’t believe? Nope.

          • TwinMamaManly
          • David W

            Upvote X100
            You made my day!

          • Charybdis

            Then what, pray tell, do YOU practice? We have a wide range of folks here, from MD’s, pathologists, immunologists, statisticians, Ph.D’s, RN’s, CNM’s, DVM’s, chemists, a wide range of biologists, mathmaticians, teachers, professors and well educated, well-read folks who have excellent reading comprehension skills.
            Then we have the parachuting, occasional posters who will argue with an immunologist about how immunity works. Will insist that breastmilk will protect your baby from VPD’s. Nope. Passive immunity doesn’t work that way. That the fact that you have to receive booster shots at certain intervals somehow “proves” that vaccines don’t work. Wrong again. That herd immunity is a bald-faced lie. Nope, nopety, nope. That vaccinated people “shed” viruses., like the unvaccinated don’t trot around spreading/shedding bacteria and viruses all over the place. The “I stay home when I’m sick and I keep my kids home when they are sick” trope is full of holes as well. You are contagious and spreading viruses for up to 21 days BEFORE they show symptoms that would cause them to think themselves “ill” and stay home. During the incubation period (when you are contagious but not showing symptoms), you breathe, sneeze, cough, eat, drink, lick, touch, kiss, share food/drink with others (don’t say you don’t, you are not a hermit, nor do you live in a sterile bubble) and can shed viruses into the environment, endangering others because YOU DON’T THNK YOU ARE SICK YET. Please explain to the rest of the class how you don’t think this happens like this.
            You should absolutely have the right to refuse vaccination, as you can refuse any medical treatment you don’t desire. But you have to live with the consequences of that decision: not being allowed to enroll your child in school, not being able to enroll them in daycare, being excluded from grandma’s house because she is currently undergoing chemo for cancer and her immune system is not up to par, not being able to visit friends with newborns, people actively avoiding you and your child/children when you go out wearing your Vaxxed movie shirt and people getting angry when you and your little disease vectors put a medically fragile person at risk for diseases, like the nurse who was going to lie about getting the flu vaccine so she could work in the NICU. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

          • Christina Maxwell

            More irony! must be World Irony Day, and possibly a full moon as well.

          • Charybdis

            Yep, Full moon last night.

          • rosewater1

            By who? You? Your friends?

          • TwinMamaManly

            Well you shouldn’t try to use(cut and paste) such big scary words then Ima Skeptic you might lose.

          • Charybdis

            Nor are we interested in yours, but you still continue…..

      • Ima Skeptic

        Caffey (1965) admitted that he was not a formally trained paediatric roengenologist.
        Guthkelch (1971) wrote:
        “Subdural haematoma is one of the commonest features of the battered child syndrome, yet by no means all patients so affected have external marks of injury on the head. This suggests that in some cases repeated acceleration-deceleration rather than direct violence is the cause of the haemorrhage, the infant having been shaken rather than struck by its parent. Such an hypothesis might also explain the remarkable frequency of the finding of subdural haemorrhage in battered children as compared with its incidence in head injuries of other origins and the fact that it is so often bilateral.”

        Just as Caffey, Guthkelch failed to provide any factual evidence for his speculation and simply accepted some of Caffeys’ terminology.

        Recently, Guthkelch went into damage control by claiming that he was misinterpreted and even went to some court hearings to tell the judge that other, natural, causes played the main role. No mention of vaccines as the primary “natural” cause. Considering that tens of thousands of innocent parents and other care givers are serving long prison terms and others are still being accused of SBS, a non-existent invalid syndrome Guthkelch is responsible for, it is too little too late.

        • Sue

          Forensic medicine has progressed a lot since the 1960’s, or since anyone used the term “Roentgenologist”.

          Don’t you watch TV?

          • Ima Skeptic

            You are playing games.

          • Sue

            Fun, isn’t it?

            I was assuming “Ima” was playing too. Nobody could seriously think that stuff was accurate.

          • Ima Skeptic

            Prove those theories were disproven by coming up with the science. Otherwise, you can’t be taken seriously.

          • Sue

            (Whispered hint: I’m not waiting for some fly-in, pseudonymous anti-vax numpty to “take me seriously”.)

          • Heidi_storage

            Oh, now we’re playing “repeat our responses”? That game’s a bit more tiresome, but I can play, too:

            What is “science”? I’d love to hear your definition. My own quickie definition (subject to correction by all of the scientists on this site) is “the systematic observation and explanation of natural phenomena.” Also, what is “those theories [that] were disproven”?

            Finally, do you accept Hill’s criteria of causation, which would strongly support the notion that vaccine introduction caused the steep decline of diseases such as polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, and rubella (as well as many others)?

            “Skeptic” ain’t the same as “smart.” Our host here bases her skepticism upon evidence, even when the presentation is more polemic or anecdotal. I cannot say the same for you and your fellow “vaccine skeptics.”

          • Heidi_storage

            I thought the game was “come up with a non sequitur as a response.” After all, “You are playing games” doesn’t really address your point about the progression of forensic medicine, or terminology, does it?

      • Ima Skeptic

        You seem to believe correlation IS CAUSATION when vaccines are correlated to a decline in some diseases but you don’t believe correlation is causation when a vaccine is correlated with injury or death. That just doesn’t make sense. You need to lose those double-standards. It proves confirmation bias.

        • Sue

          I don’t “believe” when it comes to science, I look at the evidence.

          Since I am trained in both pathophysiology and in the critical review of medical research, I understand disease causation. No double-standards – just understanding.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I don’t know you. Prove those theories were disproven with some actual science.

          • Sue

            “I don’t know you” says fly-in, pseudonymous anti-vax numpty.

            Come on, admit you are a bored teenager trolling. We can’t stand the suspense.

          • Heidi_storage

            What is “science”? I’d love to hear your definition. My own quickie definition (subject to correction by all of the scientists on this site) is “the systematic observation and explanation of natural phenomena.” Also, what is “those theories [that] were disproven”?

            Finally, do you accept Hill’s criteria of causation, which would strongly support the notion that vaccine introduction caused the steep decline of diseases such as polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, and rubella (as well as many others)?

            “Skeptic” ain’t the same as “smart.” Our host here bases her skepticism upon evidence, even when the presentation is more polemic or anecdotal. I cannot say the same for you and your fellow “vaccine skeptics.”

          • TwinMamaManly

            And….BOOM! Smack-down on Ima Skeptic!

      • Ima Skeptic

        “Antivax numpties”? That’s uncalled for. Vitriol doesn’t make you correct about anything.

        • Sue

          “Numpties” is definitely called for. Your comment called for it. It’s not vitriolic, but descriptive.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I don’t believe you know the first thing about science. Only dumbasses still vaccinate their children. Straight from mainstream media news. “Parents with higher levels of education have more concerns over vaccines, whereas those with lower levels of education don’t…. and many of those with a background in science are questioning the safety of vaccines”
            https://www.facebook.com/9NewsMelbourne/videos/1853727611557558/

            Contrary to popular belief, it’s actually the very well educated who are refusing vaccines. More educated parents are less likely to vaccinate, which contradicts the misconceptions of many health professionals who profess that parents don’t vaccinate because they are under-educated, poor or misinformed. That’s a fact. If folks are smart, they will try to find out what those educated people know that they don’t know.

          • Sue

            Actually, there are several different socio-economic profiles of people who “question vaccines”.

            There are definitely some who are relatively well-educated, but not in science.

          • MI Dawn

            Gee, Ima. I have a MSN, my ex has a BS in Pharmacy. We fully vaccinated our children. My eldest has a MS in Public health, her husband has a PhD in Public Health. They plan on vaccinating their children according to the CDC schedule.

            The very well educated are NOT all refusing vaccines. Only the ones who suffer from Dunning Kruger.

          • mabelcruet

            You might need to explain Dunning-Kruger. Ima only seems able to post cut ‘n’ paste propaganda from anti-vaxxer sites and might not be able to work the google machine.

          • MI Dawn

            Oh, she can use google. She just has no idea how to interpret anything with multi-syllabic medical terms nor how to read a research article. She regularly gets her behind given to her when she appears on SBM. I assume she came here thinking the women who post here are stupid and would believe her medical articles that are almost as old, or older, than I am.

            (Hint, Ima: medicine changes as things are discovered that improve outcomes. That’s why we do research. And we can change our minds when science proves what medicine “thinks” is wrong. Look up ulcers. Medicine has changed how those are treated. Research did that. NOT quackery.)

          • mabelcruet

            Yes, I was taken by the age of the papers she’s referencing. Does she not understand that these papers stay published and available, even when there are more recent data, and more recent papers that demonstrate the conclusions are erroneous or incomplete? Very few medical or scientific papers are retracted, and generally they aren’t retracted because the conclusions reached were superceded by more recent data, but because there were issues of probity, scientific misconduct, plagiarism or failure to declare conflicts of interest (and surprise, surprise, Wakefield’s paper fell into this category-data falsified, conflicts of interest etc).

            Having older papers and research still available allows us to see how the science progresses over the years, and how new concepts and new treatments are built on older work. It’s all part of transparency-it doesn’t mean that the conclusions reached in the papers from the 50s, 60s and 70s are still accurate or correct. For a true picture, you would need to follow through to far more up to date literature for the answers. But of course, that would show something that doesn’t fit with anti-vaxx propaganda, so they stick with the geriatric papers.

          • TwinMamaManly

            No, its the ones who are educated just enough to think they are smarter than the experts because they can navigate Google

        • rosewater1

          Pot meet kettle.

        • momofone

          You’re right, of course. “Shills and trolls” is so much less vitriolic. Thanks for keeping it dignified.

      • TwinMamaManly

        Seriously Sue, you need to stop being so logical and rational….having legitimate, facts-based responses with references might cause the Anti-Vaxxers heads to explode

      • shay simmons

        They also don’t present with fractured ribs.

    • CSN0116

      Awwww you copy/pasted from FB.

    • Roadstergal

      “As the self-proclaimed expert on vaccines, can you tell me if all those innocent parents of Shaking Baby Syndrome were ever released from prison?!?”

      For the readers who have been blissfully ignorant of this particularly vile bent of anti-vax propaganda, anti-vaxxers look at babies with clear signs of physical abuse that have been diagnosed post-mortem with Shaken Baby Syndrome, and say “Vaccine injury!” Literally nothing in the world kills babies other than vaccines, in their fevered imaginations, so therefore child abuse isn’t a thing. Anti-vaxxers are first in line to defend child abusers who kill their babies.

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/07/the-vilest-antivaccine-lie-that-wont-die/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/05/using-the-lie-that-sbs-is-a-misdiagnosis-for-vaccine-injury/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/08/using-sbs-as-misdiagnosis-for-vaccine-injury-again/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/27/here-we-go-again-blaming-shaken-baby-syndrome-on-vaccines/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/04/here-we-go-again-the-vile-tactic-of-blaming-shaken-baby-syndrome-on-vaccines-part-2/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/11/05/here-we-go-again-the-vile-tactic-of-blaming-shaken-baby-syndrome-on-vaccines-part-3/
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/04/here-we-go-again-the-vile-tactic-of-blaming-shaken-baby-syndrome-on-vaccines-part-3-2/

      Orac goes over SBS way better than I could (I’m an immunologist, far more of an ‘expert’ than the anti-vax paracheuters, but I defer to the experts in the field on SBS – not that you need to be too much of an expert to note the extensive physical trauma on Alan Yurko’s baby, a pet cause of anti-vaxxers).

      “I want you to think about a dead baby. This baby was ten weeks old when he died. The autopsy revealed bleeding around the brain, in the eyes and in the spinal column. There were bruises on the sides of his head. Another thing that the autopsy showed was four broken ribs. These fractures had started to heal, and therefore indicated a pattern of physical abuse prior to the date of death. The father admitted to holding the baby by his feet and hitting him shortly before he died. I now want to you to form an opinion of the father. If you are the sort of person who opposes vaccination, you would see this man as a hero. You would see him as a martyr to the cause and would try to get him released from prison. In a breathtaking demonstration of what it can mean to believe that the end justifies the means, the anti-vaccination liars have adopted Alan Yurko as a symbol that they can use to frighten parents into refusing vaccination for their children. You can read a loathsome justification for this murderer at http://www.woodmed.com/ShakenBabyAlan.htm. “

      • Ima Skeptic

        I never said child abuse didn’t exist. Don’t be putting words in my mouth there slick!!

        • Roadstergal

          I noted that within 30 seconds of me posting my comment, the anti-vaxxer was already showing as writing their comment, meaning it read the first sentence and couldn’t be arsed to do more. If you take the time to read its Gish gallops, realize that you’re doing more effort than it’s willing to go to. It will glom onto one sentence of yours and run with it.

          Also, realize that you’re engaging with someone who wants people who beat babies to death to be pardoned and released.

          • Ima Skeptic

            There you go putting words in my mouth again. You are so blind by vitriol your brain no longer functions.

          • Sue

            So you admit to being an anti-vax numpty?

            Your cut-paste skills are admirable, but scientific knowledge, not so much.

          • Ima Skeptic

            I’m still waiting on your science, I can’t believe anything you are claiming.

          • Sue

            The anonyperson who cut-pastes about vaccine inserts that allege that vaccines cause Gulf War SYndrome says “I can’t believe anything you are claiming.”

            HAAAHAHAHAHA.

            Come on, admit it. You really are a bored teenager, trolling, right?

          • Ima Skeptic

            You couldn’t find anything on PubMed if your life depended on it.
            “One candidate cause of Gulf War illness is vaccination against infectious diseases including medical counter-measures against biological weapons. One influential theory has suggested that such mass-vaccination caused a shift in immune response to a Type 2 cytokine pattern (Th2), which it was suggested was accompanied by a chronic fatigue syndrome-like illness. This article critically appraises th…is theory. We start by examining epidemiological evidence, which indicates that single vaccines are unlikely to be a substantial cause of Gulf War illness, but that there was a modest relationship with multiple vaccines, which was strongest in those vaccinated while deployed to the Gulf. ”
            “Immunological dysfunction, vaccination and Gulf War illness”
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1569620/

          • Sue

            Pro-Tip: Gulf War SYndrome is not an actual illness.

            I don’t “find things on PubMed” – I “search the medical literature”.

          • Ima Skeptic

            You lied about the theories of Vitamin C being “disproven”. What else have you lied about??

          • Sue

            You already made that allegation before, bored (and boring) teenager.

            Please supply current-century valid evidence that I “lied”, or retract.

          • kfunk937

            You couldn’t be arsed reading even to the end of the abstract, could you? The authors concluded that a review of epidemiology did not support the Th2 bias hypothesis, and neither did their own in vitro results.

            Citing a paper that doesn’t support your assertion? Typical.

          • Ima Skeptic

            The physicians (alleged experts) never even read the manufacturer’s vaccine package inserts. Unless physicians and patients are allowed to read the manufacturer’s vaccine package inserts, they aren’t going to know what a vaccine injury is or even looks like. Look at this list of possible vaccine reactions listed on vaccine package inserts. This was combined from many vaccine inserts:
            *Abdominal pain/cramps *Allergic reaction *Allergies *Alzheimer’s *Anaphylaxis *Angina *Apnea *Arthralgia *Arthritis *Aseptic meningitis *Asthma *Atopic dermatitis *Attention Deficit Disorder(A.D.D) *Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) *Autism Spectrum *Autoimmune Disease *Bell’s Palsy *Bipolar disease *Blindness *Bowel Problems *Brain Damage *Brain Inflammation *Bulging Fontanel *Cancer *Cardiac Distress *Cardiomypathy *Cerebral hemorrhage *Cerebral palsy *Chicken pox *Chills *Chronic Fatigue Syndrome *Collapse/ Shock *Coma *Confusion *Congestive Heart Failure *Conjunctivitis *Constipation *Convulsions *Coughing *Crohn & Rsquo’s Disease *Cystitis *Deafness *Death *Dementia *Demyelization *Development Delay *Diabetes *Diarrhea *Dizziness *Throbbing in Ear *Earache *Eczema *Eczema Vaccinatium *Encephalitis *Encephalomyelitis *Encephalopathy *Epilepsy *Erythema *Multiform Fatigue *Fever *Fibromyalgia *Flu * Guillain barre syndrome (GBS) *Gulf War Syndrome *Hallucinations *Headache *Heart attack *Hemolytic anemia *Herpes Zoster *Hib Disease *High Blood Pressure *High-Pitched Screaming *Hives *Hyperactivity *Hypotension *Hypotonic/ Hypo responsive Immune system problems *Indurations *Inflammatory Bowl Disease *Influenza accidental/inadevent *Insomnia *Intussusceptions *Irritability *Itching (prurtis) *Jaundice *Joint Pain *Learning Disabilities *Lethargy *Liver Damage *Loss of Appetite *Loss of Eye Contact *Loss of Speech *Lupus *Malaise *Measles *Memory Loss *Mental Retardness *Mercury Poisoning *Mesotheloma *Mononeuropathy *Multiple Sclerosis *Mumps *Muscle Aches *Myopericarditis *Nausea *Neurological Damage *Neuropathy *Nodules *Optic Neuritis *Orchitis *Otitis Media(inner ear infection) *Pain at Injection Site (unusual or prolonged) *Paralysis *Pervasive Development Disorder (P.D.D) *Polio *Polyneuropathy *Prolonged Crying *Psychotic Behavior *Radiculoneuritis *Rash *Redness at the Injection Site *Regression *Respiratory Distress *Respiratory Infection *Retinal Hemorrhage *Retinitis *Rhinitis *Rosella *Rubella *Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD) *Schizophrenia *Screaming *Seizure *Seizure Disorder *Sepsis *Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS) *Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) *Shingles *Shock *Shortness of Breath *Skin Disorders *Sleepiness *Small pox *Sore arms *Sore throat *Stiff neck *Stroke *Sub acute Sclerosing Pain *SV-40 related Cancer *Sweating *Swelling at the Injection Site *Swollen Lymph Nodes *Tenderness, localized *Thrombocytopenia *Transverse myelitis *Urticarnia *Vaccinia *Violent Behavior *Vomiting *Weakness

          • Sue

            What is it about anti-vax numtpies and vaccine packet inserts?

            In all other contexts, Big Pharma is an evil industry that is poisoning everyone and lying to everyone.

            But, put every symptoms ever reported after use of a substance (causation unproved) onto a piece of paper, and they fully believe that every single one is caused by that substance.

            And, the same list, with the little asterisks, is copied from site to site, all over the anti-vax world.

            No originality, these sheeple.

          • rosewater1

            Pretty sure that this might have been covered in all the years of school and clinical training they go through. No? You know better than them? Of course you do.

          • Heidi_storage

            Dang! Those pharmaceutical companies did SUCH a good job covering up their heinous deeds…widescale fraud, conspiracy, etc to promote the safety of vaccines…but they made one mistake! They listed a bunch of the side effects on the package insert!

            Oddly, none of my children have developed any of these symptoms. Know what else they haven’t developed? Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, illness caused by rotavirus, polio, tetanus, diphtheria, whooping cough, chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, pneumonia caused by H. influenzae….

            One of them did catch flu as a baby, before she could be vaccinated against it. I wish that hadn’t happened.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Ima Skeptic

            I don’t know how the medical industry, mainstream media and bought politicians ever expect to redeem themselves. If the government and the medical industry thinks lying about, or omitting, the risks of vaccines is going to instantly make all the vaccine injuries and deaths in the world disappear, they are out of their mind. How long ago was it that a physician pulled out manufacturer vaccine package insert and discussed how SIDS, autism, and cancer were listed as adverse effects reported in studies for said vaccine?? Adverse effects are sometimes referred to as “iatrogenic” because they are generated by a physician. Iatrogenic disease is defined as a disease that is caused by medical treatment and is now the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA. Vaccination is a medical intervention that carries a risk of injury or death. The right to informed consent to any medical intervention that can kill or injure you or your child is a basic human right. All physicians who refuse to read and share manufacture’s vaccine package insert information with patients should be reported to the Medical Board and sued for negligence. All of them!!

          • Ima Skeptic

            The medical industry works 24/7 to make Iatrogenic disease the 3rd leading cause of death in America. It takes real skill. Iatrogenic disease is defined as a disease that is caused by medical treatment and is now the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA. And you are working overtime to help them become the leading cause of death in this country. No unvaccinated people are dying of measles in our country but they are dying at the hands of physicians. Can you say “Pharmageddon”??

          • Sue

            Nobody is dying in measles in the wealthy world because of medical treatment.

            I know the word ‘troll’ is over-used, but you have to wonder whether this poster isn’t just having fun stirring things up. Surely nobody could really think this way. Could they?

          • Ima Skeptic

            Where is your science?!?

          • Heidi_storage

            Where, oh where, has my little science gone…oh where, oh where could she be?

          • mabelcruet

            Personally I think someone has been set some homework from school-maybe an social experiment in how to troll online, or how to manipulate social media commentators. I think Ima is doing quite well-I’d give him/her a B+. The spelling and grammar in their posts is maybe a little too perfect for most true anti-vaxxers; he might need to dumb it down a tad to give it a real anti-vaxx flavour.

          • rosewater1

            They could and do. But I think most trolls absolutely enjoy the attention.

          • TwinMamaManly

            Pharmageddon sounds distinctly like a marketing department made it up. The Anti-Vaxx marketing department. Kind of like how you accuse the actual medical fraternity and science/research industry of marketing a pro-vaxx message. “Pot, meet kettle”.

          • mabelcruet

            I think it sounds like an awesome movie idea. Chris Pratt plays a community pharmacist who uncovers a plot where two competing pharmaceutical companies plan to release drugs into the water supply, but unknown to the companies, the drugs will interact and kill everyone. No one will listen to him, and he’s written off as a conspiracy theorist, so he experiments (with his sidekick shop assistant Bradley Cooper) to come up with a drug that will neutralize both drugs, because if he doesn’t…..PHARMAGEDDON!

          • TwinMamaManly

            And the drug is discovered to be…kale smoothies!

            Don’t forget the sequel – THE VACCINATOR (played by Schwarzenegger) -in a post-apocalyptic world populated vaccinated zombies, Chris Pratt tries to continue the work of the hero researcher Dr Andrew Wakefield in order to save mankind. Its an Anti-Vaxxers wet dream.

          • mabelcruet

            And the third part of the trilogy, entitled ‘We Told You So!’

            The last remaining humans who manage to evade the vaccinated zombie hordes find their way to an encampment, high in the Appalachian mountains. But they can only be admitted if they can remember the Anti-Vaxx Commandments:

            1. Correlation equals causation
            2. It is ALWAYS the vaccine’s fault.
            3. Thou shalt honour the Prophets Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy and keep their name holy
            4. Vaccines are evil and detested by the gods, therefore their name shall not be spoken of
            5. Thou shalt bear false witness against vaccines at every opportunity

            But when they get in to the compound, they are searched and if any have a BCG mark, they are thrown back out to the ravening zombies. Unfortunately, in that brief time they spent in the unvaccinated compound, one of them, unbeknownst to the survivors (because they wouldn’t recognise it anyway) carried measles into the group, and the last shot is of piles of spotty bodies, gleefully being scoffed by zombies.

          • Charybdis

            But, but, but, what about World War Z? Where diseases are the ONE thing that causes the zombies to pass you by like they don’t even see you as food?

          • rosewater1

            And your solution for this alleged catastrophe is? Or are you just here to play Chicken Little and tell us the sky is falling?

          • Charybdis

            Isn’t that a song by Def Leppard?

          • KQ Not Signed In

            I needed that laugh! You have now ruined that song for me. It might need the full Weird Al treatment – except these knuckleheads wouldn’t understand it wasn’t actually supporting their “arguments”

          • KQ Not Signed In

            WOW. This is the stupidest thing I’ve seen so far today.

            Granted, I haven’t read the news yet, but still. Impressive.

          • Nick Sanders

            I can’t wait until iatrogenic death is the leading cause of death in the country. Our life expectancies will be the highest they’ve ever been and out death rates the lowest.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Here’s Gwendolyn, lecturing the rest of us from her perch atop Mount Stupid. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5955bb5a6624389a5c713da859751fa21030d5b888f0e6db6d556615065fdb93.png

  • Dr Kitty

    In terms of safe cots, something like this:
    http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/childrens-ikea-products/baby/cots/flitig-cot-beech-medium-blue-art-60226138/
    at least removes the risk of baby’s head getting trapped between the bars.

    • Sue

      Sounds like the baby somehow pulled a blanket between the slats and got their head stuck in the blanket. There have been many advances in cot safety – pity not every event can be anticipated and mitigated.

    • Valerie

      It seems like that would be safe, but I can imagine how babies can get trapped between the flexible mesh walls and the mattress. Cribs are quite vigorously regulated here in the US- crib walls must fit snuggly against the mattress and pass a lot of durability tests, so I don’t think mesh-walled cribs can be sold here.

  • moto_librarian

    Anti-vaxxers are the dregs of humanity. You have to be the lowest form of life to treat a grieving parent in this manner.

    • Ima Skeptic

      The incident happened over 10 years ago. Not last week.

      • mabelcruet

        Can you actually read? Sloan DeRosier died this month, July 2017. His mother was getting messages from anti-vaxxers claiming her son died of vaccination and she then posted how her son died in response to their false claims. This ‘incident’ (if that is how you feel an extremely sad infant death should be referred) happened a few days ago, not 10 years ago.

      • Charybdis

        This happened July 3, 2017. This was, in fact, THIS current week. Not last week, not last month and not 10 years ago.

  • fiftyfifty1

    Wow. This is a real lesson for me. As a family physician, I counsel families all the time about safe sleep practices, but truthfully I do it at the first couple of visits and then stop. I guess I’ve been like her, assuming that once a baby can not only roll, but also sit, stand etc. that the risk is past. Clearly I was wrong. It didn’t occur to me that will the increased mobility there also comes the increased strength to do something like pull a blanket between crib slats.

    So I thank this mother for what she posted. I am so, so, very sorry that the knowledge she shares came at such a terrible price. I wish her and her family all the best.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Its so hard to tell when stuff is no longer a worry. When can I let her keep an adult-palm sized stuffed animal? When can I let her keep her beloved Snoopy, who’s just a little smaller than her head? When does water become more important than milk? There are guidlines, but they’re fuzzy and it’s a bit of a guessing game to me.

      • Gæst

        I still don’t know when I can stop cutting up grapes and hot dogs.

        • Nick Sanders

          I’d say wait until middle school, just to be safe.

    • swbarnes2

      I didn’t know that a baby could even stick their head through a modern crib.

      • Aine

        If I understood correctly, it wasn’t that the baby’s head got stuck in the bars. Rather the baby manouvered the blanket in some way that it caught in the cot bars and the baby got caught up in the unyielding blanket.

        What a horrible tragedy and how brave of the parents to think of trying to prevent its reoccurrence in the midst of their pain. My absolute sympathies to them. And they should know that I have just this evening moved my seven-month-old’s crib to be absolutely sure there is no way he can grasp anything outside it. Thanks to this post, that is a potential tragedy averted.

        Anybody trying to hijack this awful tragedy for any purpose should be ashamed of themselves. How can they look at themselves in a mirror?

    • Sue

      We have come a long way with injury prevention, but we will never have an adverse event rate of zero.

      I agree that the mother is to be commended for resisting the temptation to look for external blame in what must be an almost unendurable tragedy. Not every event can be anticipated and prevented, however.

    • mabelcruet

      I never fail to be surprised at the way in which babies can manoeuvre themselves once they have some independent mobility. Some cases of mine: a 3 month old died whilst in a broken cot. The cot side was lowered and couldn’t be kept in a raised position so the parents had tied it midway with plastic ties. The baby was found half over the side with the top edge of the side wedged under his chin, almost like a hanging death. We think the older child in the house (3 year old) had tried to get the baby out of the cot but couldn’t quite lift him, so just left him there. We had a baby die wedged down the side of a bed and the wall-the baby rolled and the gap between the bed and wall was wide enough for his body but not his head, so the mechanism of death was like hanging again. The parents knew he could roll, but put pillows round-he just rolled on top of them. Another rolling death-a baby rolled off the parents bed and landed head first into a waste basket that had been lined with a plastic bag. A cot death-the baby was in a very large old cot, the parent had bought a new mattress which was far smaller than the cot and the baby got wedged between the edge of the mattress and the cot sides. A baby had been put to sleep balanced on a pillow in the parents bed, high up and away from mum who was also in bed. He rolled off the pillow and ended up under mum.

      All horrible, awful accidents. All families who will never, ever forgive themselves for putting their baby in an unsafe position even though they didn’t realise it was unsafe. They thought they were doing their best for their baby. And anti vaxxers want to compound their grief by making false claims? Scum sucking bottom dwellers-I’d say they should be ashamed of themselves but they have no insight, no intelligence or self awareness of how evil and vicious they are.

      • mabelcruet

        Actually, that first case probably doesn’t belong in the list. But I suppose its an awful example of how babies can die-it would never have crossed parents minds that this could have happened with their toddler being responsible for the death of a baby (responsible in the loosest possible sense, because there is absolutely no way the toddler could be blamed, obviously).

        There’s so much parents have to be wary of-I expect most parents are on top of issues like garden ponds, or open fires, or keeping household chemicals out of reach, but in the UK there have been numerous deaths of toddlers and children caused by the cords on window blinds, and deaths caused by children eating detergent pods that look like big sweets. We’ve had children die after pulling furniture over onto them-bookcases and chests which weren’t fastened to the wall but the parents didn’t realize their child could pull over such an apparently large piece of furniture.

        And how far should the criminal justice system go with these families? Should the parents be prosecuted for child neglect for failing to see these hazards?

        I was badly burnt as a child on an electric bar fire (way back in the early 70s) and needed skin grafting, extensive surgery and a prolonged hospital admission (and follow-up for many years). Were my parents responsible for that? Probably, yes. Should they have been punished for it? I don’t think so-I doubt it crossed their minds that their child would have done what they did.

        You can plan for most things, but I don’t think anyone would be able to accurately map and then ameliorate every single possible hazard in every home.

        • TwinMamaManly

          I am constantly surprised by the things my kids do to hurt themselves, I’ve got 3 under 4 and my house is about as baby proofed as it can be, but still, sh*t happens despite my best efforts.

  • Zornorph

    It would make just as much sense to blame it on ‘fan death’ than vaccines.

    • Kerlyssa

      vaccine injury as cultural disease. interesting.

      • TKnyc

        Yeah, I wanted to ask. Are there vaccine injuries in say Korea or Japan? Fan deaths happen only in Korea, but I could be wrong

  • Empress of the Iguana People

    what a nightmare all around,

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    How awful. It’s one of those things parents fear all the time, and I’m sorry it happened. Another sad lesson about safe sleeping practices. It’s heartbreaking.

    And screw to those who are trying to make it about vaccines. Moreoso to those actually bringing her into it. You want to speculate it was vaccines, do it on your own. For her, all that she needs to hear is your sympathies, not your dumbass conspiracy crap.

    • LaMont

      Vaccines are the *only thing* that kill children. If you post about sleep practices, VPDs, accidents, or cancer you’re just playing into Big Pharma’s hands by letting them off the hook. <– their thought process?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        If you post about sleep practices, VPDs, accidents, or cancer

        ….child abuse, shaken baby syndrome…

      • MaineJen

        Because no children ever died before vaccines.

        Oh wait

  • KQ Not Signed In

    What? Why? How? What? WHAT?

    How do they even…what…? WHAT?

    I don’t…WHAT?

    WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?

    What a terrible, tragic story. My heart aches for this family.

    • Charybdis

      Yeah, they’re nasty little buggers (the anti-vaxxers, not the parents). Her Facebook post about this is HEARTBREAKING. I read the whole thing; there is absolutely NO mention of vaccines or illness regarding Sloan, not a whisper of anything of that nature, so I don’t know how anti-vaxxers caught wind of this, much less how they have the ginormous brass balls to even suggest/implicate/insinuate a vaccine injury.
      Someone get the pitchforks and the torches ready. Or the napalm, as pitchforks and torches might not be enough.

    • moto_librarian

      I saw the exact same thing happen when a friend posted about another friend’s infant who died of SIDS. It was just repulsive. I was not sparing in my assessment of this person’s character, and I did indeed tell her exactly what she could do with herself.

      • Ima Skeptic

        You seem to believe correlation IS CAUSATION when vaccines are correlated to a decline in some diseases but you don’t believe correlation is causation when a vaccine is correlated with injury or death. That just doesn’t make sense. You need to lose those double-standards. It proves confirmation bias.

        • Sue

          “Ima” – you posted the exact same commment to me, up-thread.

          Have you not learned keyboard use, other then “cut” and “paste”?

      • Ima Skeptic

        The physicians (alleged experts) never even read the manufacturer’s vaccine package inserts. Unless physicians and patients are allowed to read the manufacturer’s vaccine package inserts, they aren’t going to know what a vaccine injury is or even looks like. Look at this list of possible vaccine reactions listed on vaccine package inserts. This was combined from many vaccine inserts:
        *Abdominal pain/cramps *Allergic reaction *Allergies *Alzheimer’s *Anaphylaxis *Angina *Apnea *Arthralgia *Arthritis *Aseptic meningitis *Asthma *Atopic dermatitis *Attention Deficit Disorder(A.D.D) *Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) *Autism Spectrum *Autoimmune Disease *Bell’s Palsy *Bipolar disease *Blindness *Bowel Problems *Brain Damage *Brain Inflammation *Bulging Fontanel *Cancer *Cardiac Distress *Cardiomypathy *Cerebral hemorrhage *Cerebral palsy *Chicken pox *Chills *Chronic Fatigue Syndrome *Collapse/ Shock *Coma *Confusion *Congestive Heart Failure *Conjunctivitis *Constipation *Convulsions *Coughing *Crohn & Rsquo’s Disease *Cystitis *Deafness *Death *Dementia *Demyelization *Development Delay *Diabetes *Diarrhea *Dizziness *Throbbing in Ear *Earache *Eczema *Eczema Vaccinatium *Encephalitis *Encephalomyelitis *Encephalopathy *Epilepsy *Erythema *Multiform Fatigue *Fever *Fibromyalgia *Flu * Guillain barre syndrome (GBS) *Gulf War Syndrome *Hallucinations *Headache *Heart attack *Hemolytic anemia *Herpes Zoster *Hib Disease *High Blood Pressure *High-Pitched Screaming *Hives *Hyperactivity *Hypotension *Hypotonic/ Hypo responsive Immune system problems *Indurations *Inflammatory Bowl Disease *Influenza accidental/inadevent *Insomnia *Intussusceptions *Irritability *Itching (prurtis) *Jaundice *Joint Pain *Learning Disabilities *Lethargy *Liver Damage *Loss of Appetite *Loss of Eye Contact *Loss of Speech *Lupus *Malaise *Measles *Memory Loss *Mental Retardness *Mercury Poisoning *Mesotheloma *Mononeuropathy *Multiple Sclerosis *Mumps *Muscle Aches *Myopericarditis *Nausea *Neurological Damage *Neuropathy *Nodules *Optic Neuritis *Orchitis *Otitis Media(inner ear infection) *Pain at Injection Site (unusual or prolonged) *Paralysis *Pervasive Development Disorder (P.D.D) *Polio *Polyneuropathy *Prolonged Crying *Psychotic Behavior *Radiculoneuritis *Rash *Redness at the Injection Site *Regression *Respiratory Distress *Respiratory Infection *Retinal Hemorrhage *Retinitis *Rhinitis *Rosella *Rubella *Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD) *Schizophrenia *Screaming *Seizure *Seizure Disorder *Sepsis *Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS) *Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) *Shingles *Shock *Shortness of Breath *Skin Disorders *Sleepiness *Small pox *Sore arms *Sore throat *Stiff neck *Stroke *Sub acute Sclerosing Pain *SV-40 related Cancer *Sweating *Swelling at the Injection Site *Swollen Lymph Nodes *Tenderness, localized
        *Thrombocytopenia *Transverse myelitis *Urticarnia *Vaccinia *Violent Behavior *Vomiting *Weakness

        • Sue

          Vaccines cause “GULF WAR SYNDROME”??

          Hilarious.

          I’m now more convinced this is some bored teenager, trolling to cause mischief.

        • Steph858

          Hey, Ima! How DARE you call yourself a Skeptic?! I was nodding along with all your posts right up until I saw this one I’m now replying to. You claim that vaccines can cause, among other things: Chicken pox, Small pox, Flu and Measles.

          See, a TRUE skeptic would never say such things: a TRUE skeptic knows that diseases are NOT caused by pathogens. Rather, the presence of pathogens in patients suffering from certain conditions is a SYMPTOM of those conditions, NOT a cause. A TRUE skeptic knows that the REAL cause of disease is the build-up of toxins in a patient’s body which inevitably results from living a modern lifestyle.

          Saying that a patient can contract an allegedly infectious illness such as Flu from a vaccine is admitting, albeit indirectly, that these illnesses fulfil Koch’s third postulate. This admission plays right into the hands of Big Pharma who don’t want you to know that Germ Theory is A LIE! We’ll all know that you’re secretly a shill for Big Pharma when you refuse to admit that AIDS is really caused by vitamin deficiencies and there’s no such thing as HIV.

          Skeptic? Pah! Come back when you’ve finally figured out why the Illuminati needed to fake the moon landing. THEN you’ll have earned that title, not a moment before.

          • TwinMamaManly

            Yes “modern life” causes me high-pitched screaming, chills, sweating and liver damage (by alcohol) when I realise I have to share oxygen and society with people as dumb as anti-vaxxers

          • Roadstergal

            Brava! Right down to the caps!

      • Ima Skeptic

        I don’t know how the medical industry, mainstream media and bought politicians ever expect to redeem themselves. If the government and the medical industry thinks lying about, or omitting, the risks of vaccines is going to instantly make all the vaccine injuries and deaths in the world disappear, they are out of their mind. How long ago was it that a physician pulled out manufacturer vaccine package insert and discussed how SIDS, autism, and cancer were listed as adverse effects reported in studies for said vaccine?? Adverse effects are sometimes referred to as “iatrogenic” because they are generated by a physician. Iatrogenic disease is defined as a disease that is caused by medical treatment and is now the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA. Vaccination is a medical intervention that carries a risk of injury or death. The right to informed consent to any medical intervention that can kill or injure you or your child is a basic human right. All physicians who refuse to read and share manufacture’s vaccine package insert information with patients should be reported to the Medical Board and sued for negligence. All of them!!

        • MI Dawn

          Ima: you’re not a skeptic. You may like the name, but you really aren’t one. You just take the less intelligent side of the antivaxxers.

          Yes, vaccines have risks. However, the package insert is, as it’s been pointed out to you many times, a LEGAL DOCUMENT, not necessarily a medical one. Otherwise, you’d need to explain to me how a vaccine can cause auto accidents and broken limbs. And, you’ve obviously not READ the insert as none of them give “SIDS, autism and cancer” as adverse effects. They all state that those effects *have been reported* in relation to the vaccine. But, like the VAERS database, those are reports.

          Go back to your echo chamber where everything bad is caused by a vaccine.