Homebirth, like most of alternative health, is about two things. Not mother and baby; don’t be silly! It’s about defiance and denial.
Homebirth especially is about defiance. Women routinely risk their baby’s lives — the greater the risk, the better — while flaunting their transgressiveness before their peers. That’s why there are so many Facebook groups built around the specific complication they are defying. Groups like Ten Month Mamas and its secret section.
Hi everyone! This group was recommended to me because I am currently 44+2. I’m excited to look through the posts and see if I can find some like minded support.
If she was looking for like minded, self-absorbed idiots, she came to the right place!
[pullquote align=”right” cite=”” link=”” color=”” class=”” size=””]The mother piled risk factor on risk factor until they eventually crushed the life out of her baby.[/pullquote]
The group is headlined with a typically moronic quote from killer pretend midwife Gloria Lemay, who has more deaths to her name than anyone even knows.
Attending births is like growing roses. You have to marvel at the ones that just open up and bloom at the first kiss of the sun but you wouldn’t dream of pulling open the petals of the tightly closed buds and forcing them to blossom to your time line.
Awesome advice for gardening. Idiotic for childbirth. That’s because for every week beyond 40 weeks that babies stay inside the womb, the risk of stillbirth rises … and rises … and rises. The risk of stillbirth doubles at 42 weeks, triples at 43 weeks, and continues to rise beyond.
If you wanted to use a gardening analogy, you might analogize to plants that get root-bound. Both the root-bound plant and the postdates baby grow beyond the size of their sustenance. It both cases they sicken and eventually die.
In the world of homebirth, more complications and greater idiocy are worth more atta-girls. One week after her initial post, Mom informs the group that in addition to extreme postdates, she’s added on prolonged rupture of membranes. Why not? She’s already had an unassisted pregnancy (no medical care by anyone) and plans an unassisted birth (no medical care by anyone). Mom gets her atta-girls.
But wait! There’s more. There is meconium in the fluid and Mom thinks the baby is transverse! More atta-girls.
Finally, three days later, the mother consents to induction!
But as she knew, the baby was already dead.
On July 28th [my partner] and I brought Earthside our sweet Angel baby. We discovered her heart had stopped beating before birthing. Unfortunately we had to say Goodbye in the same breath as Hello and were able to bring her home in our hearts, but not our arms…
Who could have seen that coming?
Anyone with a shred of common sense.
Unassisted pregnancy and birth have appalling rates of perinatal mortality. Postdates increases the risk of death, Prolonged rupture of membranes increases the risk of death. Meconium increases the risk of death. Transverse lie increases the risk of death. Put them all together and what do you get? A dead baby!
But as this mother piled risk factor on risk factor until they eventually crushed the life out of her baby, she was cheered on by women who are so privileged that they have forgetten that childbirth is dangerous and so immature that they think defiance marks them as authentic.
This baby did not have to die. She was killed by her mother’s choices and the group of like minded fools who supported her.
I agree there is a point when enough is enough, and other risks besides stillbirth (although all evidence appears solely anecdotal) that mean intervention may be the best option at a certain stage.
But what Data do you have to back up your rhetoric?
Data from Oxford University in the real world consistently shows the risk of stillbirth goes DOWN after 42+ weeks- https://www.aims.org.uk/journal/item/induction-at-term
This has been shown every year between 2004-2016 for both Stillbirths and Neonatal deaths
What do these women do to prolong their pregnancies for weeks beyond the due date? I know that some of them ultimately try to jump-start their labor by abusing castor oil, but how do the stave off natural labor in the first place?
What makes you think that they do? It’s completely “natural” for some women to go postdates, just as it is for some women to deliver prematurely. It’s just dangerous to do so either way; obgyns still have problems staving off premature labor, but no woman need ever go beyond dates with induction and cesareans available.
I’ve heard so many stories about women trying to stay pregnant for longer than normal, I had to wonder if they are doing something to prolong pregnancy.
If a pregnancy is normally 40 weeks, long, and there are four weeks in a month, you are basically pregnant for 10 months, anyway. 44 weeks would be 11 months, and I personally know women whose babies couldn’t survived being that long overdue. A woman in my family went almost a month overdue, and the baby has health problems: fragile bones, reproductive organs that didn’t mature properly.
Gack–why would anyone want to stay pregnant so long? Seriously, why?? It is unfortunate that the woman in your family had such problems; going postdates is now entirely preventable, which I think is a very good thing.
Well, yes. This is why I can’t understand women whose GOAL is to go seriously past their due date.
I went post dates with both of my kids and hated it. Anyway by 8 months this shit is getting old real fast and you get really uncomfortable. The only women who want to go past their due date are women like the ones on ten month mamas. The reason is purely for BRAGGING RIGHTS that’s it and its pathetic.
I know that some of the readers here read the “Without a Crystal Ball” blog over at Patheos (we’ve seen each other there). She covers a lot of this type of stuff (and has quoted Dr Amy in some cases). She had a recent story about one of the 10 month mama things where the baby was lost
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2019/01/10-month-momma/
The story is as sad as you can imagine, and also as obvious as you would expect. Gee, everyone told her to get induced at 42 weeks (even her homebirth midwife), she refused, the loons cheered her on and the baby died. Who didn’t see that coming?
As a result of pushback, it led to one of the facebook groups shutting down.
Katie Joy has kind of picked up the slack of reporting homebirth/stunt birth disasters. Because she does it in a more general community, the stories aren’t as routine as they are here, and since it draws a more general readership, the response is typically what you would expect: this is really stupid.
It reflects the fact how the stunt birthers are really still the fringe element.
I should have explained more. Ok bragging rights usually happen when you have a bigger than normal baby vaginally anything over 8 pounds you can brag about as long as it is not a c section. Going post dates can mostly get you a bigger baby so you can brag about it you get extra points if you give birth at home post dates. If baby does tear you apart don’t tell anyone that cause your vagina is supposed to “know what to do”. so extra points for an intact vagina. This explains why they stay home after being in labor for 2+ days sometimes with visible meconium= If baby is born at hospital you lose points so that’s why they stay home as long as possible or until their own life is in danger cause they always want to save themselves but not so much the baby. Also half the time this is a VBAC delivery so extra points! The baby being alive would be a nice bonus but it is not necessary. If the baby does not make it don’t worry about it cause this will just make your “healing homebirth” in one year all the more special but only if the next baby lives. Anyway after you are done burying the child you can go online to bury the baby a second time and brag about how you got your VBAC. No I am not exaggerating they do this all the time.
Yeah, this bragging about natural body functions is something I got over when I was, oh, in my teens? I mean, it’s basically bragging about who can crap the biggest turd.
It’s kind of like the growth chart for kids. I’ve seen parents brag that their kid is in the top 90% in “head circumference.” Huh I mean, I can understand being proud of their weight gain, because it shows they are eating well and likely healthy, but head size? It’s a bizarre thing to take pride in.
When I was first getting involved in parenting/birth groups, I heard about a woman bragging that her first baby was delivered when she was only dilated 8 cm. I was like, huh? How is THAT supposed to be an accomplishment of any sort? I didn’t realize that delivering a baby while not completely dilated was supposed to be a goal. Then again, not surprisingly, this woman apparently lost her next baby on a miscarriage because of an incompetent cervix. Gee, who could have seen that coming?
Maybe they think big head = smart baby. There’s a huge amount of scatter in any head-size vs intelligence correlation, though. And you know what else is correlated with big heads? The dreaded (in crunchy parent circles) autistic spectrum conditions. Oops!
She must have had a small baby if she delivered at 8cm or most likely she was lying.
I just concluded she was living in an alternate reality of some sort, so wasn’t worried about quibbling over in which realm.
Not fully immune to the propaganda, I briefly lamented not being able to vaginally bear my own big full-term baby as my mother had done with equally big me. Since then, I’ve been fully content to get out of the hospital without diapers for me and shoulder dystocia for baby. Too bad more of these people can’t do the same, and in fact would apparently prefer adult diapers and shoulder dystocia to…omg…high-tech birth like the commonfolk have.
I don’t think a lot of these women realize how much a big post dates baby can badly injure your vagina.
Yes and no. Every month but February is a little over 4 weeks, working out to 13 weeks to every 3 months. So 40 weeks is 9 months, 1 week ish
My MIL went 41 and 42 weeks with her boys, and my mother swears my sister was a month late. They were not trying at all; they just didn’t go into labor.
It just happens. There is no way you can go post dates intentionally it just happens and is pretty common.
Both my pregnancies went to 40 weeks plus 10 days. At that time we were allowed to go to 42 weeks, then induction was recommended. I went into spontaneous labour both times, 6 hour labours, both biggish babies with mec, both fine. Thanks goodness.
My ‘normal’ cycle was 42-45 days, so whether that affected the actual dates I don’t know.
In some ways I’m glad the baby didn’t make it, what horrible parents to be born in to. People like this infuriate me, no things were not better without hospitals and birthing centers. No things were not better when women went into the fields and had babies unassisted. There was a reason our ancestors needed midwives. Hopefully this woman learns from her mistake and doesn’t try this again with another pregnancy.
Used to be, ignorant people kept a low profile. Nowadays, ignorance is a proud badge of political defiance. If you can endanger others by showing your ignorance, so much the better for your ego.
While I agree that these women need some serious schooling, I find the tone of your article very insulting. Your extreme bias and holier-than-thou attitude is a far cry worse than the mere ignorance of the members of Ten Month Mamas. YOU know better, they don’t. Act like it. Please stop embarrassing your colleagues and conduct your articles with some degree of professionalism. Nobody can truly take you seriously if all of your arguments boil down to childish insults. It is incredibly hard to believe that you went through probably an entire decade of higher education to obtain the title of MD yet learned so very little about basic human decency and maturity.
You agree with the message but not the tone? Why do I find this hard to believe? Ah yes, because exposing these ignorant, heartless babykillers for what they are, instead of crooning gentle reassurances in their ears is far worse than the fact that these disgusting pieces of work killed a baby.
Let me guess: you’re a member of the cult but after seeing that we were not impressed with your accessories, you decided to play it the voice of reason, aka the tone troll, like the brave mama you are and the rest of you brave mamas are. Sorry, it doesn’t work this way.
Shoo off, vermin!
ETA: Over the time, I have come to believe that babykilling bitches can be reached more easily when you call them stupid and uneducated which they are, not when you call them babykillers which they also are. It’s the first thing that moves them. The affront to their inflated self-image. Priorities, people! Priority No 1: Vanity.
Conclusion: they should be mocked. Reasoning and appealing to children’s health (even their own children’s!) won’t deter them but the idea that people might think them stupid may just to the miracle.
There have been blogs with nicer “tone” – What Ifs and Fears Welcome, Is Homebirth Safe?, Safer Midwifery for Michigan. No one ever read those or if they did, left no comments and they are now basically archived. Being nice about these issues doesn’t work.
She’s not talking to patients, she’s talking to others.
Their “mere ignorance,” which includes -not- listening to whoever their doctors would be, is getting babies killed who would have lived if their mothers had followed medical advice. There’s nothing “mere” about ignorance when a person has had opportunities to learn otherwise and endangers another life nonetheless.
What’s your opinion about that couple who starved their baby to death on homemade vegan “milk”?
…against babies needlessly dying…
…about sacrificing babies for the sake of ideology…
So just to get this straight: Dr Amy not being nice is worse than dead babies.
Just fuck off.
THIS.
Oh, that’s right. We should all be more concerned about Dr. Amy’s “tone” rather than the fact that these idiots are more interested in sticking it to the medical profession than ensuring the health and safety of their babies. But please, tell us more about human decency and maturity.
You know that for these folks, there is nothing worse than not being addressed as the goddesses of birth AND wisdom they believe they are. To them, Dr Amy is an heretic.
Your extreme bias and holier-than-thou attitude is a far cry worse than the mere ignorance of the members of Ten Month Mamas.
Worse in what sense? Their “mere ignorance” has killed three babies so far this month. Dr. Tuteur’s know-it-all attitude hasn’t killed anyone, and may have saved some lives. In my book it’s pretty clear what’s “worse” here, and it’s not Dr. Tuteur.
It is not ‘mere ignorance’. These women are not lacking information. They have all been given the information by their own Doctors and OB. But they decided that they knew better than experts, chose to ignore the scientific evidence, silence and ban everyone who tries to bring real information and convince other women to follow in their dangerous step.
This isn’t mere ignorance. It’s wilful defiance.
So, just to clarify, are you seriously arguing that Dr. Tuteur’s tone is more egregious than the behavior of these people–which, by the way, resulted in the deaths of at least two babies?
The more I read this, the more incredulous I become. I would suggest you stop embarrassing yourself with such ridiculously misdirected outrage. What if you used it instead TO HELP STOP THE DEATHS OF BABIES DUE TO RANK IGNORANCE? You could even ask nicely if you think it will help.
I’m a sensitive soul. When I first started reading here I was sometimes put off by Dr. T’s tone. But then I realized something. She’s talking about babies being hurt and dying for entirely preventable reasons!!! Is there a better reason to be harsh?
I first came here expecting to find out that I had misunderstood. My first encounter with Dr Amy’s writings on homebirth was when Janet “My hospital birth was traumatic, my stillbirth was not” Fraser. I came here, fully expecting to see that my English had gone rusty due to the late hour. Instead, I picked up my jaw from the floor and started cheering on each of Dr Amy’s harsh, truthful words.
Hell, these are not patients! She’s here as a blogger, not these women’s obstetrician! She is allowed to be harsh as these loonies strive to win birth goddess points by risking their babies.
OT: what fraction of tone trolls are actually legitimately tone trolls, as opposed to pretending to be tone trolls, but actually disagree with the message and not just with the tone? I bet it’s at least 50/50 in terms of them being disingenuous.
And for hit-and-run tone trolls, I suspect it is a lot higher than that.
You know, I’m not too bothered when someone gets angry about a needless death, especially that of a child. I happen to think you’re not angry *enough* at the willful ignorance that brings about these deaths. That’s right, “deaths” plural, because we’ve seen this happen over and over and over and these idiot midwives continue to practice with no oversight and no consequences. Because a few women somewhere don’t want to be bothered with antibiotics and such.
This reminds me of a certain presidential administration being more angry at *how we found out* about a scandal than at the scandal itself.
Exactly!
Sigh.
A friend had an accidental home birth, this was her third child and things progressed a lot quicker than she expected. She was very lucky that her doctor was able to attend as the child had been partially strangled by the umbilical cord and needed oxygen (which the doctor had).
“Unassisted” pregnancy is attempted (in this case successful) infanticide. Had her baby been born, she’d have found some other stupid way to risk it’s life. Either through being an antivaxxer or by withholding required medications. This woman is a murderer, and the group that egged her on are her accomplices.
I don’t mean to be pedantic, but when women say “unassisted”, they don’t mean with a lay midwife (here), they mean something even worse. They mean no help at all, even poorly-trained help. And there are whole groups of women who think that’s a good idea, too.
Bunch of morons.
Yes, it is moronic for a group of adult women with no medical training to repeatedly assure a postdates woman with multiple risk factors that she should continue to wait it out at home. Glad we agree!
Aren’t they!
What an apt description of a coven of babykillers!
What’s the harm in “alternative” medicines/therapies they ask.
Sh*t like this.
Let’s call it for what it is: Narcissism. The one-up(wo)man ship in the when it comes to childbirth is insane.
You know what “the ultimate birth experience” is? Both mom and baby surviving a process that in the wild, before modern medicine, had a very high death rate. Everything beyond that is noise.
Oh God this is heartbreakingly awful. The blind leading the blind.
Oh God this is heartbreakingly awful. The blind leading the blind.
I’ve seen one blind man leading another. The first was very familiar with the route. They both used their canes, though, because you never know when something’s going to be on the path.
You know … that group is like the mob in the street yelling “JUMP, JUMP!” to someone on a ledge.
Like those “pro ana” groups that cheer lead anorexics to starving themselves to death. Sick, disgusting, and completely insane.
I am all for being self reliant and not promoting doctors and their lying schemes. But there is a line to draw. Centuries ago, women did often give birth “at home” or wherever they might be at the time. But they didn’t go into it foolishly. They truly did know what they needed to know. If they didn’t, someone was around that did. But the babies and mothers were always at a high risk. Being immersed and having to know things out of necessity is a far cry different than “pro choice”. In today’s world, there is no need to place yourself or a baby in such risk. But foolish women are doing such things. It disturbs me that babies are being aborted or endangered. But even more, I am sickened that any woman on Earth would think it’s an entitlement to do so. It is like someone saying “I have the right to be a murderer. It is my life”. But murdering implies doing something that is immoral that affects others. And you DO NOT have the right. Like it or not. Having your baby (or not) effects someone else. And if your brain was in the right shape, you would certainly care about how it effects others. And you would care even more about the baby. My wife had three. And I was close by for every one. And we worried every second of the way. Ready to consider all opinions and get all the help we could find to help those babies come into this world alive and well. I don’t care much for how the medical industry lies to people, avoiding cures just to make money. But for delivering babies, doctors made all the difference. It is a character thing most of all. You have to avoid the crackpots who don’t belong in surgeries. We had one like that. Wife almost died because of that idiot.
A few things: cures *would* make money for whoever developed them, so implying that cures are disincentivized in the medical community is silly. If that were the case, why did we wipe out polio, smallpox, etc?
Also, as you’ve seen, pregnancy is a massive risk to a woman’s body. She has the right (entitlement, as you nastily put it) to decide if she takes it, particularly since the vast majority of people cannot afford a surprise extended hospitalization for pregnancy-related causes. Since you’re so into saving all these lives, would you require organ donation to people who will die without it? Or is it only when women want to withhold their uteri that you call it “murder”? Yes, “murder” implies something bad, but we *do not consider refusing to gestate murder* so… yeah, I don’t want to give people the right to murder, I want to give people the right to withhold their bodies from serious health risks if they wish to.
Also, how do you want to deal with miscarriages? Legal investigations for all of them, or just for the ones that happen to poor, single, or non-white women? Would women have to prove innocence or would it be assumed? Just wondering.
Amen, amen.
So my guess, once the baby is popped out, by your “logic,” it is moral to not take them to the doctor for vaccines, well-checks, sick visits, etc. because “not promoting doctors and their lying schemes”?
It was standard practice back then for women to write farewell letters to their children and update their will in case they died.
If they had property and knew how to write, of course.
This is in no way similar to abortion.
“I don’t care much for how the medical industry lies to people, avoiding cures just to make money.”
Huh?
Doctors only made a difference for delivering babies? Who makes all the difference for serious infections, broken bones and heart attacks?
Oh – wait. You must be a twelve-yr-old boy trolling. Come on – admit it.
I can almost understand the attitude of “Doctors are screwing us to make money” in a country where you pay through the nose for healthcare, except here in the UK, where healthcare is free, the doctors use exactly the same treatment plans and medicines.
Doctors are not out to make money, they join the profession to save lives. If you in America were bold enough to offer universal healthcare, you would also see a huge increase in the health of the population and a large reduction in spending on health. Per head of population, the USA spends double on healthcare compared with the UK.
I hate it when anti choicers insist on regaling us with their thoughts.
Yes they do. And they choose to use my story of seizing and almost dying at the hospital as “proof” that hospitals are evil. I hadn’t even had any “interventions” yet except being put in a wheelchair. Pretty sure being in a wheelchair did not make my blood pressure spike to deadly levels.
Oh yeah, they also blame my prior use of an epidural during the birth of my first as a reason my second birth three years later went wrong. Because they have to find some way to blame the hospitals.
That doesn’t even make any sense. I’m sorry you were judged by idiots.
The internal strategy is obvious: complications like yours scare the living daylight out of them, therefore they must rationalize that those complications are _caused_ by something that they are unaffected by (such as “being in hospital”, because they’re homebirthers) – so if they avoid the cause, they’re safe.
Not that this makes their silly reasonings any better (especially in your face)…
These facebook groups can get crazy. Finally someone has acted on that Autism chlorine private group and one mother is being investigated in Britain for abuse. Daily Fail, but better than nothing (maybe) for reporting http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4767618/Mother-investigated-using-bleach-cure-son-s-autism.html
Hideous! The pictures of damaged intestinal lining were horrific.
No, they do support this. They may claim they don’t because a dead baby doesn’t look good, but this is exactly what they support. This outcome is the logical conclusion of the philosophies they push: Nature knows best & Doctors are out to get you.
I support homebirth and minimal intervention under very strict circumstances. I don’t support reckless disrespect for the safety of mother and baby.
Why is this all about you?
Seriously, what does the specific level that you personally support an ideology that led to the death of (yet another) baby have anything to do with anything?
It was a response to another comment.
Mothers and baby will die needlessly even under “strict” circumstances. What is really reckless is to choose to be far away from life-saving technology, in the name of vanity, which what every planned homebirth is.
I don’t really support homebirth itself. But I support bodily autonomy and the right for everyone to make their own decision about their bodies. No matter how dangerous and stupid. So I can’t oppose a mother’s right to have a homebirth.
Making prenatal care or hospital birth mandatory isn’t something we should allow.
That said, one should own the consequences of their choices and actions.
That woman made her own choice, and she killed her baby, and I hope that she realizes it and remembers it every time she’ll see a baby/child for the rest of her life. Same goes for those idiots who cheered her on instead of properly counselling her.
I didn’t say I wanted homebirth to be illegal, but it should be characterized as reckless, because it is.
Oh it absolutely is. Having the right to make your own medical decision doesn’t mean we can’t criticize her. If they don’t like being called stupid and reckless, then they shouldn’t be making stupid, reckless decision.
I disagree, but the point I was trying to make is that this attitude is so far overboard.
Are you willing to go on record as affirming that driving with a child not in a carseat is “not reckless”? Do your homebirthing friends skip carseats too?
I have had three OHIP funded homebirths and I was well-cared for by my university educated midwives who followed appropriate protocols. I saw a doctor when I needed to.
I am a doula, as I have mentioned before. I only support homebirth clients who have a registered midwife and are seeking out appropriate medical care.
As for car seats, I follow local regulations just like I do when I’m giving birth.
The entire point of my original comment was to say that among those of us who aren’t always in agreement with all of the opinions stated on this blog, the behaviour of this woman is baffling and I certainly don’t support it.
I think the people with the most outlandish views are often the loudest unfortunately.
My
second son Vanya was a homebirth. Some might say we were lucky because
it went off without a hitch. We think it was because we were as well
prepared as it was possible to be in that situation. We had a registered
midwife in attendance and also my ex-wifes sister who was an RN in the
local hospital’s maternity ward, as well as a doctor on call. We never
needed to call him.
This woman has learned a horrible lesson…It will change her in the long run.
Of course you were lucky. My first child’s birth was going along swimmingly until my previously normal blood pressure spiked to 200 over something or other, 4 hours into labor. Did your midwife and your SIL have the tools with them to deal with pre-eclampsia?
No, you were lucky. I had an ideal pregnancy with my second after a near perfect pregnancy and birth with my first. Suddenly after arriving at the hospital, right before they hooked me to an IV my blood pressure spiked, I started seizing and died on the operating table during my emergency c-section. If I hadn’t been in the hospital I would have not been brought back and my baby would have died as well.
So anyone who does a homebirth on purpose is idiotic and those who succeed are lucky. I did add “on purpose” as I know two moms who went from barely contracting to baby wanting to come out right now and ended up having unintentional homebirths while their husband was on 911 on speaker.
I’ve been assisting births for fifteen years. From my (anecdotal) experience, the only times the code button has been pushed were with previously low-risk pregnancies. The two whose babies almost died were fine, healthy, with no risk factors until something went terribly wrong (in one case, a true knot, in the other, an abruption). Without constant monitoring, the true knot baby would have died for sure (because we wouldn’t have known she crashed when she descended and the knot tightened). These things happen to low-risk pregnancies all the time. Why would anyone risk that at home? I will never understand it.
I was coded with my third baby and was far from low risk. I’d had multiple preterm births and was actually hospitalized at the time for multiple risk factors. They only reason I’m still alive is that the anesthesiologist on call that night had a gut feeling and hung out in or near my room between his other patients and happened to catch things when they went from “not good, but still okay”, to “holy shit, she’s dying, get the baby out” (pre-eclampsia progressing quickly to eclampsia), and he was able to start barking out orders and getting me in the OR within seconds. Less than ten minutes after he hit the first alarm my tiny 24 week preemie was born, handed off to the NICU team, and they were able to save my life.
I am so glad you and your baby survived! I hope it didn’t seem like I was saying that nothing bad happens to high-risk patients. I was just saying that low-risk patients can become high-risk very quickly during labor and birth.
Good doctors have good intuition. My mom is an OB and had a patient who was a young, healthy primip who suffered a uterine rupture after a normal vaginal delivery. The first signs were really vague (No obvious bleeding, no dramatic BP drop). She rushed her to an OR and saved her *and* her uterus. I asked her how she knew so early. She said she just knew. But she’d been a doctor for thirty years at that point.
Thanks. And I didn’t take it that way. Just providing an example of a high risk patient who coded. And of course most of the women who have catastrophic complications are going to be low-risk, because the overwhelming majority of pregnant women are low risk, so their much smaller rate of complications still adds up to a much higher raw number.
I was the stereotypical glowing earth mother goddess both pregnancies. Had no issues including no morning sickness or any of the other stuff big or small. Baby #1 pretty much fell out of me after two pushes with no tears and I had a very easy recovery. #humblebrag
My doctor came to apologize after I was alert enough to have a conversation. I told him that this is why I picked a hospital birth, because one never knows what will happen. I was alive, baby was alive, and I would undergo a complete recovery. Decided against #3 after that though!
Just wondering, is there any correlation between morning sickness severity and delivery/pregnancy complications? I’m not sure I see why there should be any relationship at all.
As far as I know, morning sickness is at least partly hereditary (I saw some news headlines indicating research along those lines). My mother claims to have had none in two single pregnancies. I had one twin pregnancy with very mild morning sickness. The only other things I’ve seen about health and morning sickness are connected to lack of morning sickness in the first trimester being linked to miscarriage, but I think it’s a pretty weak link.
The only significant correlation I know about is that very high beta-hCG, associated with very bad nausea, can be a sign of molar pregnancy:
http://brochures.mater.org.au/brochures/mater-mothers-hospital/molar-pregnancy
That sounds like a friend of mine…she was young, healthy and had a beautiful pregnancy, a very tough but unmedicated birth…and then her daughter wouldn’t take a breath on her own for fully 10 minutes.
She was in a hospital, so her baby was resuscitated and suffered no ill effects. At home, the baby would have died.
10 minutes without air and no brain damage?! Those must be some amazing doctors.
Well this was at a high level NICU hospital, they had a crash resus team in there within minutes, and they were bagging her to she was getting oxygen. The doctors were concerned enough about oxygen deprivation that they were running brain scans days later, and they gently prepared my friend and her husband for possible effects, both immediate and down the road.
That baby is now about to enter 2nd grade, so it was a happy ending!
That sounds like a friend of mine…she was young, healthy and had a beautiful pregnancy, a very tough but unmedicated birth…and then her daughter wouldn’t take a breath on her own for fully 10 minutes.
She was in a hospital, so her baby was resuscitated and suffered no ill effects. At home, the baby would have died.
All births with good outcomes are lucky. It’s a gamble every time. But hospital births minimize the risks.
You were lucky. That’s all. And a doctor on call? I find it hard to believe. The doctor took a day off so they could wait to see if your ex-wife would need them?
The woman in question doesn’t seem like she had learned a damned thing.
And what of those who were “prepared” like you were and the baby died? There are countless stories like that here.
I know a woman who had three children at home with only an LPN in attendance (ie, a really unqualified person). The kids were fine, thank God, and so was she. This is because most births do go well, and not because she was specially prepared. If something had gone wrong–and make no mistake, it does sometimes–her kids (and maybe she) could easily have died or suffered severe injury.
I am very glad you wouldn’t try a homebirth in the circumstances described above. Homebirth with a term, head-down, singleton fetus showing no signs of distress and a low-risk, multigravid mother who lives close to the hospital…is still considerably riskier than a hospital birth, but it isn’t as risky as the situation Dr. Tuteur has presented.
I need brain bleach. I looked at their webpage. They use a picture from a 1963 (!!!!!) medical book to state the risk of stillbirth doesn’t go up till 42 weeks. That information is from a 1958 study….4 years older than I am! And they all claim, the poor special snowflakes, that they can’t find any studies that show anything differently. Of course you can’t, precious. More evidence shows that the risk begins to rise at 40 weeks, goes higher at 41, and really jumps at 42. You don’t want to SEE that evidence. You want the fictitious stuff that supports your little unicorn farts world.
But they’re such critical thinkers, don’t you know!
You do know that FULL TERM is up to 40weeks 6 days, right?
You arent post term until 42 weeks. According to ACOG anyway who Im assuming all of you holier than thou, perfect little patients follow.
And you didn’t comprehend what I said, obviously. I talked about stillbirth risk increasing starting at 40 weeks and really jumping at 42 weeks. I said nothing about ACOG or how post-dates is defined. As a CNM, I’m quite aware, snowflake. Go find your echo chamber and sulk.
lol
I belong to the facebook group in the above article. It is a fantastic group with critically thinking women providing support to mothers who gestate longer. The extracted face-book posts in the above article appear to me to be copy and pasted to create a false narrative and misinform people. I do not consider this site to be credible and the perspective to me appears to malicious in its intent. Lies and misinformation do not protect mothers and babies. Truth and information make for educated families, and THAT serves to protect mothers and babies. May any mother coming to this page find the ability to discern the good from the bad.
A baby died.
Critically thinking women wouldn’t be encouraging a very post date unassisted birth of a potentially transverse baby after prolonged rupture of membranes and meconium in the fluid.
Please explain what is this ‘false narative’
And you talk about education. Have you told this poor mother that she had multiple concerning risks factors and that continuing with Unassisted birth had high risk? Was she ever properly advised that she needed medical help?
Huhhh
Did not a baby die?
A group of mothers who are so desperate for natural child birth that gestate beyond 40 weeks?
What are we missing?
Well Mark, what you’re missing is that in the Twilight Zone that is uneducated and high risk home birth the baby is merely a prop for super-goddess-mother. Whether the baby lives or dies is irrelevant; what matters is that the goddess-mother gave birth on her terms.
And you will be helping in that effort by keeping a record of this baby’s death intact, so everyone can read it? You do that by providing a record of every baby death that happens in your group, so people can judge for themselves if what you are supporting is safe?
It’s a fantastic group of women who are so fricking into their own self-aggrandizement that a baby died because it was way too overdue. Point out our lies and misinformation. Are you talking about the *medical fact* that stillbirth is FAR more common after 41 weeks gestation? That this mother was ruptured, with meconium and possibly a transverse lie and NO ONE in your group suggested she consult a physician instead of a bunch of know-nothing strangers on the internet?
A BABY DIED!
I don’t think “critically thinking” means what you think it means.
Oh, God. Fuck off. There needs to be a name for whatever disease you people have.
Sociopathy? Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorders?
Whatever, anyone who thinks that the pregnancy itself is the be-all and end-all, and the actual baby is just a prop, is not right in the head.
Care to explain in what possible way the article above creates a false narrative and is misinforming people, or did you just pop in to post a completely unfounded and ignorant remark?
False narrative? What’s false about it?
*crickets*
Lies and misinformation do not protect mothers and babies, eh? The irony and lack of self awareness would be amusing if there weren’t a dead child. Instead it’s just painful.
Oh, ho, you are just like our President and his “alternative facts”. Every time someone reports the reality you scream “fake news” don’t you Sarah?
Actually, no, she doesn’t. Sarah is a regular commenter here. She was being sarcastic.
Could you clarify what ‘the reality’ is here? It’s not immediately obvious what you’re talking about.
Also, he might be your President but he’s not mine. I don’t have one.
I will repeat myself from below:
So you were one of the people who encouraged someone with numerous risk factors to avoid medical care and cheered her on as her baby died inside of her? How is that humane? How is that thinking critically? How is taking a screenshot of your words misleading or creating a false narrative- did you, or did you not, cheer this woman on as her baby died?
Take ownership of your actions. Take responsibility for your group. You helped cause this unnecessary death and the grief that follows. If you don’t learn something from it, then no, you don’t actually care.
>”I belong to the facebook group in the above article.”
Lovely. Were you part of the rah-rah brigade that contributed to that baby’s demise?
>”It is a fantastic group with critically thinking women providing support to mothers who gestate longer.”
Unsubstantiated pontification noted.
>”The extracted face-book posts in the above article appear to me to be
copy and pasted to create a false narrative and misinform people.”
Do you have anything to back that up, or are you attempting to hand-wave away some uncomfortable truths? Never mind. The answer is painfully obvious.
>”I do not consider this site to be credible and the perspective to me appears to malicious in its intent.”
It’s hard to imagine why you think anyone might care about your “perspective” or what you consider “credible.”
>”Lies and misinformation do not protect mothers and babies. Truth and
information make for educated families, and THAT serves to protect
mothers and babies.”
On that we can all agree, though your capacity to distinguish “lies an misinformation” from “truth and information” appears to be severely addled by what amounts to a religious belief.
>”May any mother coming to this page find the ability to discern the good from the bad.”
Amen to that. 🙂
You’ve accidentally included a quote from a regular in there.
HA HA HA HA HA
Killers, every one of you.
The truth is that accurate information could have saved this child’s life. Your member could have had a few days in the hospital, roughly a week of feeling crappy, and six weeks or so of recovery–with a living daughter. Now she has to go casket-shopping. Any harshness on this page absolutely pales in comparison to this great evil, that a family sustained a preventable loss and now must bury a child. And we nasty, mean commenters would like to see future deaths prevented, and THAT is our “malicious” perspective.
Maria – does your group share information about the risks of post-dates, the increased risk of stillbirth and the risks of the degenerating placenta? If not, what is the group for?
I find it interesting that a baby is dead and your response is trying to prove that you’re still smart.
Oh no, someone who thinks it’s a good idea to give birth past 44 weeks doesn’t consider this site to be credible? What devastating news. Pass me the smelling salts.
(hands pearls to Sarah, pushes over the fainting couch and gives fan and smelling salts to her)
Oh, my, my, my! Ah do beeleeve Ah may FAYNT! (Said in an exaggerated Scarlett O’Hara fashion, naturally)!
sarcasm, for those not sarcasm-literate.
You won’t know critically thinking if it bites you in the giving murderous advice behind.
Your post was very revealing to me. It makes clearer what this group is. A gathering of women with limited reasoning abilties who consort to assure themselves that they are smart.
Did I mention limited humanity and compassion as well? A baby died, you monster. A baby died and you rushed here to assure us how smart are you?
If there has ever been a case of a coven of criminally stupid, you and the rest of your deadly advisors are it.
A “coven of criminally stupid”. Love this, gonna use it often!
Please do!
You all aren’t thinking critically enough. If you were to truly a bunch of smart ladies, you’d think, hey, I am not a medical doctor who specialized in OB/GYN so I’m totally out of my scope and really don’t know that much about pregnancy. Instead you are stupid and arrogant enough to think you know more than those OB/GYNs and somehow so totally more special than all the women and babies who didn’t survive childbirth before it was medicalized.
You don’t spread information and truth. If you did, you would encourage a mother to be informed about her baby via prenatal monitoring, speaking and consulting with actual experts in the OB field, not encourage her to birth unassisted when she was supposedly very post-date, tell her to get her butt to the hospital when her water had broken without productive labor, tell her how bad of an idea it is to attempt vaginal birth with a transverse lie.
I suspect you might throw a few dollars this woman’s way via a GoFundMe page, delete her Facebook comments, and never learn from this experience. You all wanna play doctor, I think you all should start facing the consequences an actual doctor would have faced if they gave such STUPID, heartless, death-causing advice.
Your group is actually a group of selfish fools who risk their kids’ lives so they can show off for randos on facebook. You’re not educated or logical in the least.
HOW ON EARTH did she think she was going to birth a transverse baby unassisted? Her vagina was just going to “surge” 18-21 inches wide to accommodate? Was she going to do an external version on herself? Reach into her own uterus to turn the baby manually?
Fucking idiot. But then, she seems to think it’s a revelation that medicines are drugs, so yeah.
(Mind you, I also don’t trust her to accurately know which way her fetus is lying, but if you think the baby is transverse GO TO THE HOSPITAL.)
I was wondering the same thing. If a baby is consistently malpositioned like that, isn’t there usually a reason? i.e. cord entanglement, short cord etc?
I don’t know. My daughter spent some time transverse, but she was A) a twin, B) small for her gestational age, and C) turned head down by 35 weeks.
Most babies are breech/transverse at a particular stage. By 32 weeks the baby has ususally turned to vertex.
Yeah, I just meant my daughter stayed that way a little late and it wasn’t because of cord problems. But it was also carefully monitored.
Actually, the mom did say elsewhere that the cord prolapsed. And yes this is a definite risk with transverse or breech lie and ruptured membranes.
I have no words. That poor baby.
Was the prolapsed cord the trigger for the woman to go to the hospital? I thought that was an “OMG, baby might die in the next few minutes” emergency development.
Yes, it is a “death in a few minutes” emergency. That may well be why the baby died.
But I thought the mother made a big deal about consenting to be induced with Pitocin?
I dunno, I think she was induced after the baby’s death was discovered?
I somehow doubt that any OB would recommend an induction for a women supposedly at over 45 weeks, without any pre-natal care, with membranes that broke 3 days ago with meconium in the fluid. And definitely not if the baby was transverse or she had cord prolapse.
The only way an induction makes sense is either if the mother refused a c-section and the cord prolapsed after the induction or if the baby was already dead, so they could afford to not do a crash c-section.
*Oh my god*
SHE HAD A PROLAPSED CORD?
How did she expect, even with all these risk factors, for the baby to live without oxygen? Sweet weeping Jesus.
Sometimes. But often, there’s no apparent reason. [Pelvic shape and placental placement also affect how a baby can present]
Cord issues can cause weird positions, of course, but sometimes the baby gets “wedged” in a little (not really, but that’s the best way to describe it) and it’s easier for them not to move. Those babies will sometimes respond to external version (ouch) or other baby spinning efforts (I haven’t read much about their effectiveness), but as they get larger it’s way more difficult for them to switch around.
Is that right? My baby had an interesting presentation, I can’t remember at the moment what the doctor called it but it made giving birth SUPER fun. /s She also mentioned that he had a short cord. I wonder if the two were related.
Possibly occiput posterior (sunny side up)? A baby facing up instead of down can make the pushing stage very difficult.
I finally remembered. She said he was partially asynclitic.
Oh, ouch. Asynclitic babies are very hard to deliver! Did he come out the usual exit?
He did eventually. Luckily I had a skilled and experienced OB. He made it out just before the deadline she set for using a vacuum. Thank goodness! I still think my maternal request c-section would have been better overall but all’s well that ends well and we’re both happy and healthy now.
Eighteen months ago today, actually. <3
Oooh! I’m impressed. (I assume you mean she didn’t use the vacuum…usually it’s impossible to attach a vacuum to an asynclitic baby because when you try to attach it, you get ear instead of head). Either way, I’m glad you both made it through okay.
She didn’t. She said she was considering it. It’s all a little hazy but I know at some point there she called extra people in, I assume the NICU team.
He had several risk factors; older Mom with gestational diabetes, partially asynclitic presentation, decels when labor first started, hypoglycemia in the first couple of days after birth, but he seems to be right on target developmentally. He just turned 18 months yesterday and this morning he started using 2 word phrases!
Also, a sweet little face!
Thank you! He’s the most amazing little person. I’m completely unbiased of course.
What matters is that mother can boast that she did everything ‘right’. She probably figured that the baby would turn on its own, thereby glorifying the mother and proving her divine awesomness as the perfect mother, and proving everyone else who gets C-sections for transverse babies are losers.
It’s all about vanity.
Notice the link someone in the FB group provided to Spinning Babies. Because apparently someone is actually under the impression you can resolve transverse lie by having mom sit or stand a certain way.
Reading that name, I’m imagining mom climbing on a giant pottery wheel.
Reading it makes my head spin, but I don’t think that’s the goal.
I get a different mental picture; one that includes Rumplestiltskin, a spindle and spinning wheel.
When I first saw that website, I thought it was going to be about women on exercise bikes while pregnant.
Yeah, but generally people recommend that BEFORE labor starts, and they go in for prenatal checks where they can find out if it worked. She was reported being IN LABOR with a transverse baby and people are posting the link to that website.
You can stand on your head or hang by your ankles, using bungee cords, from the ceiling, but if a baby is really a transverse lie that won’t change the situation. Moreover, if membranes rupture, there’s an excellent chance of a prolapsed cord — or a prolapsed arm.
Yes, but at least before labor starts spinning babies is pretty harmless woo. But after? No way!
heh, that was me. armfirst.
My son was transverse and I did manage to spin him twice, once with the postures from the spinning baby website, once with acupuncture (done to my small toes). The problem was he always flipped back. Both times I felt him move around and the next day my doctor examined me and said he seemed to be head down. My doctor was a no-nonsense kind of doctor (the best kind!) and she said I could try those two techniques if I wanted, but she didn’t expect anything to come of it.
When I was 39 weeks we scheduled a maternal request csection, I was very uncomfortable and had a lot of pain on my ribs (ive had one for my first when I was 40 weeks 6 days, which my doctor considers as the limit of “wait and see”). My baby was in true transverse lie, with his head under my ribs. It took the doctor a while to pull him out and he was born butt first (through the csection).
Im glad my doctor humored me in my attempts to flip the baby, she knew I would not hurt him by laying down with my feet up or having someone poke my toes with tiny needles). At the time I really wanted to have a vaginal birth and she afforded me the chance to try. I felt heard and respected, and that counts for something. At the same time, I knew she would intervene and be honest to me if needed.
Do tell how needles in your toes made a baby change positions in your womb.
I don’t think it had anything to do with that, I really think he just changed positions on his own and that happened to coincide with the day I had a wonderful massage and a bit of acupuncture. I was once naive enough to believe it was the needles, but I know better now. I was glad to have tried that then, even if it didn’t do anything. The massage was still wonderful, and I still believe being more relaxed is not a bad thing, pregnant or not.
Hi, Mariana. Thanks for sharing your story. You were sensible to take medical advice while trying the other things, and I’m sure you’re right that the baby moved on his own – not because of your posture or needles.
My concern for others less rational than you is that they can be convinced about the acupuncture and NOT seek competent medical care.
Thanks for posting. Ordinarily a transverse lie is a way station to a breech or vertex presentation. Only if the breech or the vertex is not fitting into the pelvis do we see a persistent transverse lie. So, as you have learned, if the baby is not able to move into and stay in a more favorable position, there’s little you can do to influence the situation.
I often wonder why all these ‘babies know how to be born!’ people think we can help babies position themselves better. Seems inconsistent.
I’d wager that she sought medical help because she was in pain and/or worried about her life.
She wanted an unassisted birth but the baby was transverse lie? A baby in that position cannot be born vaginally, period.
If she had no prenatal care, how could she possibly know accurately what the gestational age was? Dating from LMP is only moderately accurate; and she could not have known how much postdates she was.
I was pretty darn regular when we were trying to conceive Spawn. LMP dating put gave me a due date (and a date of conception) that was two weeks earlier compared to the date based on when I got a positive ovulation test on my OPK. If I had made it to term, I would have thought I was at 42+0 when I was at 40+0 based solely on LMP.
Since I’m old enough, we got an NT test that confirmed that Spawn’s age fit the OPK date not the LMP date.
my babies register a bit off size too, when embryos. And we know -precisely- when my IVF babies were concieved. That’s why I was so annoyed with the variable due dates with the younger one. How the heck can you have variable due dates with FET after IVF?!
That is frustrating and would driven me nuts as I am a planner.
I’m not much of one, especially when depressed, which I was and am. Plus, the one that was most off was the nurse midwife who saw me at the intake for my ob’s office. (i’d already gotten a confirmation ultrasound from the Clinic) I went with the Clinic’s number, because, duh, they’re the ones who did the FET.
I have had two babies that dates were changed based on ultrasounds because I ovulated a week later than normal. It also took me a week longer to find out I was pregnant and so I was not surprised with either that dates were changed. I can’t believe people when they don’t get prenatal care or good prenatal care on how far along they are. My periods are pretty consistent too but about twice a year, they can get wonky.
I have really irregular cycles. I can go anywhere from 6 weeks to 6 months between cycles, so they always chose a due date based on an early ultrasound instead of relying on LMP. I conceived my 5th on a 5-month cycle. Can you imagine the kudos I’d get in that group for a 14 month pregnancy?
I don’t understand the mentality of babies “knowing” when to be born. The preemie twins I just saw? Pretty sure they didn’t “know” to be born 3 months early. If babies knew when to be born, we would have no need for size 2.5 endotrachial tubes. Prematurely wouldn’t be a “thing”.
I’m sure this mother and her family just spent the previous ten months eagerly awaiting the arrival of that little girl. Another life lost, sacrificed on the alter of natural childbirth.
My three dead babies (late second trimester miscarriage due to unstoppable preterm labor) and the three surviving but also premature babies who spent between 10 days and 6 months in the NICU certainly didn’t know when to be born. Either that or these people are saying that my babies were stupid and didn’t deserve to live or deserve to have a healthy start in life.
Oh – but when something goes wrong, it’s not because the baby didn’t know when to be born, it’s because of some evil “intervention” or something else the mother did – taking medication, exercising too much, or not enough, not believing strongly enough….
Hey doesn’t stillbirth actually start going up in week 39?
Yeah, but not by a lot; the risk remains fairly similar for 39 and 40 weeks, goes up at 41 weeks, then really takes off after 42 weeks.
Thanks. Just wanted to make sure I had facts right.
http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/06/routine-induction-at-39-weeks-natural-childbirth-advocates-are-spluttering.html
It goes up earlier than that, but before then, there is a tradeoff with prematurity-related risks.
Looks like the FB group found this post. We’ve already had one dirty delete, from “Tribe for Mamas” who tells us Dr. Amy’s article “stinks of ignorance.”
I happened to still have it on my screen and so I capped it for posterity. Someone better cap the gem below calling us inhumane… https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6157d38e0328e295da84c824e2c4ad9e9b5d2085c33c040afe69ddb6fabcd1b9.png
Oh wait, I already did. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9aa5af88dc8ded175e0a68bdf7ef6e4dfd1d2c44d38b64d06ae058013d1ab295.png
Thanks
I hate those dirty deletes so much – it’s so emblematic of the entire attitude they have in this movement. If you don’t like it, or it contradicts you, or if it makes you look bad, or if it’s got actual facts in it, DELETE.
It annoys me enough that I switched to my phone and used data to make sure I uploaded it.
That’s cute. Nothing’s more humane than causing the soul-wrenching grief of a bereaved parent. /s
The dirty deletes show that they realize their culpability in this and other deaths/maimings. If they truly stood on principle (as horrific as it is) they’d leave it there. They’d be proud of it. Warrior Mama did her best, but Nature decided that baby wasn’t meant to be.
If indeed that is right and true, they’d defend it whole-heartedly. They know it isn’t. They also aren’t quite dumb enough to know that one day this could result in a lawsuit or accessory to manslaughter charges and because they’re oh so brave, they’re covering their craven asses as best they can.
But alas, the Internet is forever.
I have had reason to obtain a court order for the content of messages on Facebook. Now granted, that’s not quite the same as deleted posts, but it’s not that much different either. The most difficult part of that whole process was obtaining the court order. Once the judge signed the order, FB took just a couple days to cough up the requested content.
(Upvoting for the info getting and stuff)
I would LOVE to pick your brain about some of these egregious pages such as “Modern Alternative Mamas”, where she specifically bullies any poster who suggests legitimate medical evaluation or follow up.
My knowledge of those things is fairly limited. My reason for needing FB message content was for something unrelated to mommy boards.
LOL! The internet never forgets.
This article stinks of ignorance
Awful.
And babies are NOT roses! Shit goes wrong, you are out a freakin’ flower! I’ve bought flowers and didn’t shed a tear when they wilted. I threw them in the compost. I would never do that to my child!
Good grief. This is just nuts. And the language…not “I was stupid and so my baby died” but “…brought Earthside our Angel”. Well, lady, if you had been caring, you would have a live baby because you would have sought out needed medical care long before this.
11 days from her first post at possibly 44+ weeks to delivery. Is this a fricking competition for longest pregnancy? It’s obviously NOT about having a live healthy baby!
Ugh, I wanna scream, your baby was always Earthside, not some magical, spiritual womb universe! And because it was on Earth, it goes by Earth rules. You aren’t guaranteed a pregnancy that results in a healthy baby without intervention. But with monitoring and needed intervention that some smart, caring Earthers developed, most likely you will have a healthy baby.
When we say some one is “expecting” we mean they “expect” to have a live child, rather than a dead one, as opposed to having a velicioraptor.
Now I’m picturing a woman giving birth to a velicioraptor… 🙂
That would be kind of awesome, actually. 🙂
But do you give birth, or lay an egg?
Eggs.
Am I really the only one who’s seen the movie Carnosaur? Cause that’s the plot of the whole movie.
Come on.
Nope. Haven’t even ever heard of it. Sorry. I just have a vivid imagination. And no, I wasn’t thinking of the woman laying eggs… 😀
The only fertile female in my house lays eggs.
Clever girl…
I’m actually quoting someone I ran across on FB who objected to using “expecting” to mean someone was pregnant.
There are times when poetic language is the only thing people can do to lessen their grief. I totally understand that. But when you’re in a group that has developed a whole language to soften the fact that babies are often born dead THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.
Somehow I hope it’s a horrible prank.
I’ve seen a picture of the mother with the clearly dead baby.
What was the reaction by the group?
Probably sympathy that she had to be induced. No one cares about a dead baby.
Noone cares about a dead baby??
I’m actually a member of that “careless” group and all i can say is that between their views and yours they are definitely more humane than anything your disgusting comment has shown.
If you all really cared about women giving birth to healthy children, you would have encouraged her to seek medical attention LONG before that baby died. It was a TOTALLY UNNECESSARY death. You all were cheering her on with her extremely post dates pregnancy instead.
I don’t know who posted that so I can’t say whether I was cheering her on. Stillbirth can happen whether the baby is 16,24,40 or 45 weeks along. The lady who posted this isn’t even a Doctor. Maybe do some actual research before judging. The stillbirth was in no way the mothers death.
Her baby was lying transverse, she had ruptured membranes with meconium and self reported being over 44 weeks pregnant. Can you honestly say you would have supported her going unassisted?
Apparently. Unless something has a 0% or 100% chance of happening, you can’t relate phenomena at all! Knowing that something happens 98% of the time under some circumstances but 0.05% of the time under other circumstances should not play into your understanding at all! Unless it’s certainty, it’s all mysterious and indescribable.
Stillbirth can happen at any time. After 40 weeks, though, the risks go up and up. It is more likely to happen at postdates. So you’ve got postdates, transverse lie, ruptured membranes, and meconium … do you honestly think that this woman had a low risk of bad things happening? Do you really think she should have avoided medical care for days?
Sure sounds like a doctor to me.
The risk of stillbirth varies depending on the time of gestation. It is not the same at 38, 40, 42 or 45 weeks.
If the woman had been followed by a doctor, her baby would absolutely still be alive.
A road accident can happen whether you’ve had no alcohol, or some, or a lot, but if I were a part of a facebook group dedicated to cheering on someone who was going to get behind the wheel of a car eight beers in and three days later I found a baby was dead because of it, I’d take a look at myself. You know this is wrong. You can stop contributing to risky behavior that leads to more deaths. This choice is under your control.
Stillborn can happen anytime, sure.
Past due delivery increases the risk of stillborn.
“Maybe do some actual research before judging.”
Excellent suggestion. Please get back to us after you do.
And auto fatalities can happen whether drivers are drunk or not. Does that make drunk driving safe? Do drunk drivers who inadvertently kill their own children bear no responsibility for their deaths?
True, it wasn’t the mother’s death. It was a baby who if it were mine would have been evicted weeks ago, as doctors recommend and probably -not- have died. Driving in inherently a little dangerous. I could get in an accident and my baby die, even with her car seat. However, the odds increase with every ounce of beer I have before we head out.
I know that “the stillbirth was in no way the mothers death” is a typo/autocorrect fail, but it’s a telling one.
As long as it is only the baby in danger, you people are content to cheer her on. As soon as it’s the mother’s life you’re risking, shit gets real. You are willing to sacrifice the baby for the sake of a natural birth, but not yourselves.
She is in fact a doctor, with a long career and is still asked to speak at ACOG.
You are not a doctor.
Stillbirth can happen at any GA, sure. Keep repeating it the next time you flop your toddler in the backseat and sit behind the wheel to take a good ride while drunk. After all, kids die while in their car seats and driven by sober drivers.
If she would have an induction at a hospital or a CS at 41 weeks the baby would be alive today. Yes, the mother would have had to endure some days in hospital, an IV, and maybe surgery. She chose to avoid those things to get the vaginal birth she wanted and was cheerleadered by the group’s members. I would not be able to live with that knowledge. I have risked my own life and of course my long term health to keep my son away for as many side effects as possible. In my case it was worth it. The mother in this case might have a different view, she might value most the vaginal birth over her baby’s life. In my opinion that speaks volumes of who you are, what type of person and what type of mother you are. And people that encourage that kind of behaviour is in my opinion absolutely careless, and I say careless because I do not write insults online.
And yes, I still hate my CS scar. But I value my son’s neurological development (absolutely normal so far at almost three years old) much more.
Now, please, call me inhumane, ill-informed or whatever you want. I will take that as a compliment.
You doctors and your edumacation don’t know as much as my mommyblogger!
Glad your boy’s doing well 🙂
Stillbirth can happen whether the baby is 16,24,40 or 45 weeks along
A baby is dramatically more likely to be stillborn at 42+ weeks than at anywhere from 34-40 weeks. That’s because the placenta isn’t designed to sustain a baby that long; it’s supposed to last the length of the pregnancy, and the longer the pregnancy lasts, the more women will experience a failed placenta and thus a stillbirth.
the lady who posted this isn’t even a Doctor.
When a doctor, lawyer or engineer retires, they are still a doctor, lawyer or engineer — just not a practicing one. And they will always know more about their field than a person who never became a doctor, lawyer or engineer in the first place.
I think you meant to say “The stillbirth was in no way the mother’s FAULT”, but it came out as “The stillbirth was in no way the mothers death”. Freudian slip, perhaps?
Dr. Amy IS a doctor, she is simply retired. You don’t lose your M.D. status by retiring, you know.
Stillbirth can certainly happen at any time, however I think the dividing line between miscarriage and stillbirth is something like 22+ weeks. It should NOT be happening at 45 weeks along, because the baby should be born by then. Risk factors increase dramatically after 41 weeks, placentas age and become less effective as time goes by. How long can you go in a low oxygen environment and/or how long can you hold your breath? Why would you, the baby’s mother, choose to put your baby in an increasingly hostile environment where infection is a real possibility, circulation is jeopardized and oxygen levels are dropping? Especially if the amniotic fluid contains meconium? How would you feel if your nose and lungs were filled with water from a septic tank? Why would you actively choose that for your baby? Are you going to let them chew on the mushrooms they found in the yard? Stick their fingers into electrical outlets? Chew on electrical cords? Play with your cleaning supplies? Play with plastic bags? Because there is no difference in rolling the dice that your baby won’t be harmed if you let them chew on the TV cord and going postdates (40+) weeks with your pregnancy.
Incidentally, I myself am not a doctor but still am capable of synthesizing information and coming to reasonable decisions based on the information I have. (I do have some math/logic background which helps parse things.) Intelligent people who navigate their own lives should have a level of literacy regarding things like health, finances, civics, hygiene, etc. Not expertise, but enough critical thinking to engage and realize when expertise is called for. It’s just a pet peeve of mine when people use that appeal to authority – yes, doctors deserve *extra* respect in health matters but “not a doctor” isn’t a reason to disregard someone’s discussion, nor is it an excuse to be a complete dipwad on basic, settled science.
Yes, fetal demise can happen at any point up to and including delivery. Here’s the difference, your group of uneducated mommies encouraged this woman to keep on going despite the fact that there existed several high risk factors. There is no difference between your page and a group of people on the street encouraging strangers to give a drink of water rather than chest compressions to a person in cardiac arrest. Wrong is wrong period.
Stillbirth cannot happen by definition before 20 weeks of gestational age, O educated one. And sure, stillbirth can happen at many ages of gestation, even if the mother has top-notch care. But in this case, even positing that the mother’s choices did not cause the baby’s death is like pointing out that that drunk driver who was pulled dead from his car MIGHT have died of an unrelated health issue.
How convenient that you can’t remember. That doesn’t absolve you of your culpability in this.
My “culpability” – Are you being serious?!
Fuck off, Troll.
Says the person whose made a total of 3 comments on this blog ever to someone whose been a member of this community for years. If you cheer on dangerous practices, then yes, you are morally culpable in the death of this child.
They can indeed. They can happen rather more often at 40 weeks than 45, though.
“actually a member” AKA “part of the problem”
“Humane” would not encourage her in behavior that directly killed her baby
People on THIS board care about a dead baby. We DON’T value some ideology over the health, life and safety of mothers and babies.
Furthermore, we’ve witnessed many, many deaths through the natural birth/homebirth movement here on this board, and we’ve seen how the groups branded as “support” react when a baby dies.
1. They declare that “some babies are meant to die” even if there were clear indications of distress or the situation was entirely preventable. LIKE THIS ONE.
2. They praise the mother for her bravery in the choices that she made against medical advice that are often directly causal to the baby’s death – so long as she continues to toe the party line and never wavers that she was 100% right no matter what.
3. They venerate and worship and crowdfund for any “warrior midwives” involved, no matter how many deaths she has presided over and/or caused.
4. They harshly turn on the mother should she waver at all in her faith or questions her choices and the wisdom thereof, or if she GOD FORBID changes her mind or learns something from the ordeal.
5. They scrub all evidence of it ever having happened.
Time. After. Time. The same reactions to a dead baby.
Oh, but you are one of the people cheering on the sidelines of these deaths! You already know the drill! Thanks for reminding me:
6. They howl that we are MEAN and Dr. Amy is MEAN because how DARE anyone EVER say a death was senseless or ANY choice is foolish, reckless, dangerous, stupid, ignorant or selfish MEAN MEAN MEEEEEEAAAANNN
Really? So you were one of the people who encouraged someone with numerous risk factors to avoid medical care and cheered her on as her baby died inside of her? How is that humane?
Take ownership of your actions. Take responsibility for your group. You helped cause this unnecessary death and the grief that follows. If you don’t learn something from it, then no, you don’t actually care.
I don’t get what’s humane about encouraging women to risk the death of their children rather than seek out prompt medical care for post-dates pregnancies.
Where was your care for the baby when you where all cheering up for her to go so overdue?
When a new post date member comes into your group, will you tell her about how that baby died? Will you tell her that going post date can kill her baby?
What’s humane (or remotely intelligent) about encouraging women to risk their babies’ deaths to boost their egos? Oh, right, nothing!
Impossible, given what they’ve cheerleaded.
I am really sorry a baby has died.
That being said, one should not encourage dangerous behaviours that increase the chances of someone dying. You do not encourage drunk-driving, you do not encourage crossing motorways without traffic lights and crossways, you do not encourage your friends to take heroin. And you should not encourage women to have unassisted pregnancies, because that is a risk factor for stillbirth, you should not encourage unassisted birth because that is a risk factor for stillbirth and mother’s death and you should not encourage going postdates, not seeking assistance when there is meconium present and prolonged rupture of membranes for the same reason.
Encouraging said behaviours is the same as encouraging drunk-driving. I am sorry by the people that died on a car accident while drunk. I have looked after drunk drivers as patients and my care was the same as with any other patient, but I would never defend drunk-driving and much less encourage that behaviour.
If this is not being humane, I really have a very different definition.
Sure, you guys have some care. You care about just how long you can stay pregnant, baby be damned! You care about avoiding doctors and hospitals at all cost, baby be damned! You care about encouraging women to do stupid, DEADLY shit just like you! I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think your group is owed much humanity.
You know who lost out? The baby! Surely, you all are sure to highlight that going postdates can result in a dead baby? No, you all aren’t. Next woman that comes along you’ll do the same crap.
How is it humane to cheer someone on to do something that will injure or kill a powerless bystander?
So you are concerned for the mother but not the baby
What is so special about a natural child birth, that you are increasing the risk to the baby?
Now, let’s see…
Humane includes being fair to others. Every word typed by the members of your group is a lie, exluding the “the”s. Perhaps.
Humane includes valuing other people’s lives. You showed zero consideration to this baby’s life. You actively encouraged the outrageous woman who gave birth to endanger it.
You’re just a bunch of murderers by proxy and this is a fact. Lesson over.
To my fellow commenters here: please, can we stop pretending that the deadly advisors who drew the short stick and had a baby die were not deadly advisors in the first place? I really can’t understand this attitude, that all loss mothers from such groups are little innocent souls who were tragically misled but are generally as white as snow? With the speed they do deletes over there, we have no way of knowing just how many babies of other women these loss mothers helped kill before their own babies died which somehow seems to turn them into poor mommies and nothing else even at this site.
Please. That’s how they do it in the hospitals and that’s right. You have a dead or injured baby – you don’t judge their parents. You don’t tell them they are responsible or partly responsible. But this isn’t a hospital. Do we really need to pretend that all these women are solely victims with no agency and cheerleading death of their own?
They are equally responsible, every one of them who encouraged this woman to go on with an unassisted labor. Hopefully one day we will see a time when uneducated people like this can be prosecuted.
If your group is truly humane why didn’t anyone suggest this mother get an actual MD evaluation? Childbirth is not playtime for little girls who still live in Fantasyland. Things can go wrong, and when they do babies and mothers can die quickly. This baby may have survived and thrived had there been medical intervention; I have no patience for a group of uneducated people cheering one another on the path to another dead baby.
Your actions and words prove otherwise.
Such an unnecessary death, that poor baby. The placenta must have turned to stone at this stage.
I’m sure the homebirthers will dismiss it with ‘some babies are meant to die’.
Since she had no monitoring whatsoever, I’m wondering if she really was 45 weeks pregnant or if that was an incorrect estimate. The rest of it, though, ugh. I can’t fathom taking those kinds of risks with my child’s life. She privileged her own experience over the life of her child.
I did wonder that. 45 weeks would be pretty uncommon, no?
Uncommon but really not impossible.
Well, if she had no prenatal care, her dating could have been way off. Even with a regular cycle, dating by LMP ONLY, [without comparing estimated gestational age with fundal height, for example], cannot necessarily give a really accurate EDD.
I wonder if this woman was a primigravida. Oh, I see she’s not. So she feels she knows everything.
True. But there have been well documented pregnancies of over 300 days gestation ( medically, the longest was 325, IIRC, but a woman supposedly had a 375 day pregnancy in 1945 from her LMP and positive pregnancy test.
Always remember what the state of obstetrics was in 1945. No Ultrasound, no fetal monitoring, and you can get a positive pregnancy test for conditions other than pregnancy [btw, human chorionic gonadotropin was undiscovered in 1945, rabbits were injected with the urine of pregnant women and then examined.] The 375 day “pregnancy” can be explained in other ways. I wouldn’t rely too much on that statistic.
No, but sufficiently so that I’d probably want verification from someone who understood the basics of biology for any individual case. Given that she apparently did her own prenatal care, I suspect I’ll remain disappointed.
God almighty, It’s events like this that caused us to invent and use obstetrics, no matter what the free-birthers believe.
Totally agree!
Well that’s horrific.
Indeed. It’s unbelievable, except that it’s not unbelievable at all. The thinking behind this is beyond me; the belief is maintained through such a prolonged period.