When it comes to survival, vaccinated children are the fittest

Little boy gets a vaccination

Everyone knows that evolution works by survival of the fittest. Anti-vaxxers seem a bit confused on this point. One of the resident anti-vax trolls on this blog, ciaparker2, illustrates the problem.

Cia says:

On the one hand, weak babies and children stand a much greater chance of surviving to reproduce now than was formerly the case, which may or may not be good for them. On the other hand, the survival of the weak damages the vitality of the species, while the survival of the fittest, natural law, enhances it.

What Cia and other anti-vaxxers fail to understand is that on the cusp of 2018, vaccinated children ARE the fittest.

Fitness is measured by surviving offspring, not surviving genes.

Cia and her anti-vax friends are confused about genes, fitness and natural selection.

Genes are the units of inheritance. Many genes correspond to specific traits like hair color or height. Genes can change over time because of mutations. Each time the DNA of a gene is duplicated, there is a small possibility of error, a mutation. Most errors have no impact on the animal that inherits them. Some mutations are harmful, leading to the early death of the animal. A very few mutations are beneficial; they give the animal a greater chance of surviving to reproduce.

Evolution works by natural selection, also known as “survival of the fittest.” The animals that have the greatest number of surviving offspring are the “fittest” for that environment.

Based on her comment, Cia seems to think that children who survive when they haven’t been vaccinated are fitter than those who survive because of vaccination. Therefore, vaccination decreases the overall fitness of the population.

Let’s try a thought experiment to show Cia and other anti-vaxxers the error of their “reasoning”:

Imagine a lion and a man meet on the savannah and the lion outruns the man, brings him down with his superior strength, kills the man, and eats him.

Who is fitter for the environment of the savannah? The lion, right? The lion has survived with the ability to have more offspring and the man is dead and can reproduce no more.

If a lion is fitter than the average man, how much fitter will it be compared to a man who is below average?

Imagine the same lion meets a different man who is weak, slow and nearsighted, but this man has a gun. The man aims the gun, shoots the lion and eats it.

Who is fitter in the scenario? The man, right? He survived and can go on to reproduce and the lion can’t.

What’s the difference between the two disparate outcomes? It’s the gun, right?

Possessing guns increased the fitness of the man and since his descendants have guns, too, their fitness will also be increased. That’s why there are a lot more people today than lions.

Although it looks like technology is more important than genetics, that’s not really the case. Strictly speaking, it isn’t the gun that increased the man’s fitness, it is the genes for intelligence that allowed people to invent guns. Despite the fact that lions are still bigger, faster and stronger, people are smarter and that makes them fitter. Have guns “weakened” the human genome? Have they deprived the human species of vitality? Hardly.

Vaccines are like guns.

Those who are smart enough to get them are fitter. The “vitality” of their descendants is increased. Technology doesn’t weaken the human genome; it makes those who possess technology and utilize it fitter than those who don’t. Therefore, vaccinated children are fitter than unvaccinated children.

Remember, fitness is measured by surviving offspring, not surviving genes. The lion’s genes may “stronger,” but it is just as dead when shot by the gun as it would be if humans had doubled in size, speed and strength and overpowered the lion that way.

It’s pretty obvious that children who die of disease are unfit by virtue of the fact that they can never reproduce. Back when vaccine preventable illnesses routinely carried off millions of a children each year, the children who survived were fitter than those who died. But now that vaccines can prevent death, the children who survive without vaccines are no fitter than those who survive because of vaccines. And the children who die of vaccine preventable disease because their ignorant parents withheld those vaccines are the least fit of all.

Human beings have become the most numerous large animals on the planet. We have spread to and mastered nearly every place and climate. We didn’t outcompete other animals with size, strength or speed; we outcompeted them because of intelligence. Vaccines, like all technology, doesn’t “weaken” the underlying genome; it’s the manifestation of our superior intellect. In other words, it’s a product of better genes.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    The function of the site is compromised when comments exceed 2000 so I’m closing the comments now.

  • Jack Sprat

    I’m going to add a new dimension, and thanks AT for not capping the comments yet. It did not take much digging to establish a more complete picture of this misfortunate sequence of events.
    From the CDC, Postexposure prophylaxis (PEP) : “Although the cost varies, a course of rabies immune globulin and four doses of vaccine given over a two-week period typically exceeds $3,000.” $10,000 is typical.
    This is beyond the financial capacity of the family. Does your opinion of the father’s initial response change? What component of health care failed? Mostly smart people here… GO

    Edit: The father initially stated the child fussed about needles. Could this be his deflection from “we couldn’t afford it?”

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      I would happily go massively into debt to save my child’s life, no question. And I dare say that is exactly what they have done with the hospitalisation, but without the happy outcome.

      I blame a country which is wealthy enough to give everyone free healthcare, but prefers to spend the money on armaments, and on a wholly unnecessary layer – the insurance business, and its profits – between consumers and providers.

      • Jack Sprat

        Thanks Tigger, as would I. This family has no assets to leverage, father is a temp worker.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          In that case, almost anywhere else in the civilised world his family’s healthcare costs would be borne by the state, even in countries such as the one I live in where wealthy people are expected to pay something towards the costs at the point of delivery. And even that is capped.

          • FallsAngel

            Again: https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/medical_care/programs.html
            Our health care system is a mess, but we’re not *that* heartless, at least not most of us. If they really couldn’t afford it, they probably qualify for Medicaid.

          • kilda

            yes, he would have gotten the shots regardless. No hospital would have turned away a child exposed to rabies for inability to pay. Just as, you’ll notice, the hospital he was admitted to accepted him and provided lots of very expensive care (unfortunately it was too late).

          • FallsAngel

            Thank you!

      • FallsAngel

        Before you start blaming any country, look at this: https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/medical_care/programs.html

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          So, they could have had the life-saving treatment for free; and if they had followed the doctor’s advice and taken little Ryker to a hospital, they would have discovered that.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Edit: The father initially stated the child fussed about needles. Could this be his deflection from “we couldn’t afford it?”

      Why? Because a bad excuse is better than a good one?

      • Jack Sprat

        Not arguing, simply putting it out there.

    • FallsAngel

      I just posted this elsewhere on this very forum, however, given how screwy Disqus can be, I’ll post it again here. There are programs for people who can’t afford the vaccines. Big bad “Big Pharma”, Sanofi and Novartis, have such assistance programs.
      https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/medical_care/programs.html

      And hey, there’s always “Go Fund Me”. They’re doing it now: https://www.gofundme.com/ryker-roques-medical-bills

      • Jack Sprat

        Fair enough, thank you. Father did not graduate from school, has minimal education. How would he even be aware of such programs? Again I’m not arguing, simply trying to put a frame of reference around this. After all, it was just a little scratch.

        • FallsAngel

          I would presume the people taking care of him would know how to get the father in touch with the programs. The father also had a computer and knew how to use it. There is no excuse for waiting two weeks to get care.

  • Tigger_the_Wing

    I want to know what gave me the autismz!

    After all, if it wasn’t genetic from my father and his father, why am I autistic, and my youngest sister – born twelve years after me, and in a different place – is also autistic, and yet the two intervening siblings, born in the same place I was (same room, even) aren’t autistic? ‘Tis a right puzzle, that! It couldn’t have been vaccines, because I’m much too old. I got the diseases.

    Oh, and then we have to explain why my sons, and my youngest sister’s sons, are on the spectrum, as are some of my grandkids, despite being born in different places and even different countries.

    • Roadstergal

      It’s amazing how different vaccine schedules with different antigens even within vaccines for the same disease all cause the same sort of autism-spectrum in a family over time! It’s kind of like how vaccines do that with Type 1 Diabetes, isn’t it?

  • Jack Sprat

    Unfortunately, Rykar Roque has succumbed to rabies.

    • Chi

      Awww. Poor little Ryker. That’s a horrible way to die and I feel so bad for his parents.

      But at the same time, I feel a bit angry at them because sometimes you have to do things in your children’s best interest, and those things may make them cry. You just gotta suck it up and deal.

      If they had gotten him the shots, it’s entirely probable that poor child didn’t have to die.

      • FallsAngel

        A “bit” angry at the parents? I’m hopping mad at them for allowing a sobbing child to dictate his treatment.

        • Chi

          I was trying not to be overly insensitive. They have just lost their child.

          But then, I feel like they’re cut from the same cloth as stunt homebirthers who end up with a dead baby and say ‘I didn’t think it would happen to me’.

          • FallsAngel

            I hear you. Every death is sad, and the parents meant well, but they made a very foolish decision. This isn’t a decision you leave up to your kid.

        • Roadstergal

          It was just such a sequence of fail. Put something dangerous within reach of a six-year-old and tell them not to touch it?

          If they had gone ahead and gotten the kid the vaccine after that, it’s a ‘whew, that was close, very important lesson’ – but then to let the kid die from it??

          • FallsAngel

            Doesn’t surprise me that much. I’ve seen parents back off getting their kid(s) immunizations because the child(ren) put up a fuss about getting a shot.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            When I had my first kid, I was surprised by the sheer visceral reaction I had to getting her vaccinated. I knew intellectually that it was absolutely the right thing to do, but there’s something in one’s gut about holding a kid down while someone stabs them with a needle full of germs that messes with you on an instinctive, hind-brain level, or so it was for me, at least. Fortunately for DD, I am capable of higher levels of thought than the solely instinctive. 😉

          • AnnaPDE

            Something exciting and cool, to boot, such as a bat.

            I mean, leaving a kid alone with some broccoli and strict instructions not to put it in their mouth is how you get vegetables into them…

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Depends a bit on the kid–at this point, I can tell Miss 3-year-old “don’t touch X,” and she won’t touch it. I suspect that her brother will not be so reliable at 3, though.
            In any case, I would bloody well NOT put a bat (?!?!!!!!!) within either kid’s reach (suppose the damn thing recovered enough to flap out of the bucket and scratch/bite?), and if they did somehow go behind my back and mess with it…? (Or, somewhat more likely, if an older kid messed with a bat after being told “if you ever see a bat, don’t touch it”…)
            TBH, I’d consider it a bit of a learning experience: “I told you not to mess with bats. Rabies–cue brief, age-appropriate explanation–is why, as I explained before. Because you did, we have to get you shots. They won’t be fun, but they’ll be a hell of a lot more fun than dying of rabies *cue another brief, age-appropriate explanation of what it’s like to die of rabies.*
            These parents, I’d cheerfully prosecute for some sort of criminal neglect. “Oh, you don’t want shots? Then I guess you magically won’t get rabies.”
            What a HORRIBLE way for anyone to go, much less a six-year-old child.

          • kilda

            this was basically like leaving a loaded gun near the kid and saying don’t touch it – just playing out in much slower motion. 🙁

          • Who?

            And as we know, when adults do just that, it is widely agreed that the living adult has ‘suffered enough’ ie that the death caused by their negligence has caused them so much grief that they should not be punished for it by the legal system.

            That disrespect for children makes me rage.

          • FormerPhysicist

            I’m not a big fan of the legal system or the prison system. I can’t see what good it will do anyone to arrest, try, and jail the parents. It’s not about them ‘suffering enough’ for me, it’s that it just doesn’t serve any purpose. They aren’t a continuing threat to anyone because of this. And it doesn’t help Ryker either to show this ‘respect’.

          • kilda

            it does make me wonder just how bad their judgement is and how that will affect any other children they have. They showed massive and repeated bad judgement: bringing a sick bat home, leaving it where a child could get to it, not taking said child for immediate medical care when he was scratched by it.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Perhaps not prison, but if negligent parents were given community service and regular supervision by a child welfare officer, it would send a message to all other parents that this behaviour is not acceptable, and that society takes the responsibility to do right by vulnerable people seriously.

          • FallsAngel

            Yeah, and that’s not the worst of it. The kid cried at the idea of shots, so the parents didn’t take him in for care. That’s what really gets my hackles up!

          • MaineJen

            I’ve been on the receiving end of enough tantrums that I can….like…KIND OF get it? When the stakes aren’t high, sometimes you have to pick your battles.

            But, when the alternative is death??? No, you don’t give in.

            I have to think there was a healthy dose of “it won’t happen to us. Bad things only happen to other people.” Now where have we seen that before?

          • StephanieJR

            And maybe a dash of ‘can’t be bothered’; it’s kinda dangerous, but you don’t think it’s that big a deal, kid doesn’t really need the shots, too big a fuss to make, we don’t have time to go, etc. And now they’ve lost their little boy.

          • Bored Now

            One of the reasons I talk to vaccine critical folk on the internet is because I find it gives me insight into the various ways we can end up acting irrationally. Evidence suggests that they knew rabies was a possibility. So I really wish I knew how they rationalized this.

            Did they actually not know that rabies is the almost perfect killing machine? Are there websites that say: “Rabies isn’t so bad”? Did a 6% chance (percentage of bats with rabies) seem like a good time to roll the dice?

          • shay simmons

            Well, our buddy ros (remember her?) has gone on record as stating she would only seek homeopathic treatment if she were exposed to rabies.

          • Bored Now

            …and Ron Roy said that he could withstand rabies on his diet alone. This boys death is on their conscience since they could have easily cured him….. Unless of course they’re both talking through their asses.

          • shay simmons

            Ron claims he can cure anything with diet alone, remember?

          • Bored Now

            I wonder if he will decline to comment on how he could have effected a cure.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            That sounds positively suicidal, but then I’ve never lived in a country that had endemic rabies, so I’m very fortunate not to have to consider the consequences of a bite or treatment (unless I had been bitten when on holiday). Also, I’ve always lived in countries where the government has taken on most of the responsibility for providing healthcare, so cost hasn’t ever been a consideration either.

          • FallsAngel

            I may be going out on a limb here, but I’d say that rabies is such a public health emergency that the govt would pick up the cost of the vaccines here, too.

            Well. . . I guess I don’t have to worry about my limb breaking; here is some info from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/medical_care/programs.html
            For those who won’t open links, yes, the drug companies (Big Pharma) does have programs for people who can’t afford the rabies vaccines.

          • shay simmons

            This is an individual who pops up whenever homeopathy is the topic of discussion. I don’t know their current location but she has mentioned that she used to live in Africa.

            She is a true believer.

          • FallsAngel

            I gave in plenty on clothes, foods (yes, you can have a bag of chips 10 minutes before dinner), etc, but I was in charge for health care, and my kids never gave me much flak about it.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I was always completely honest with my kids about vaccination. I told them that it would hurt for a count of three, but not very much and only in the place where the needle went in, and then it would stop hurting forever – and that was a lot better than getting really, really sick and hurting all over, all day, every day, for at least a week.

            Edited to add:

            When they got old enough to be smart-arses, I’d be mocked because they didn’t get anywhere near ‘three’ before it stopped hurting.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I am trying to understand. Above there are a bunch of comments about whether they could know that bats carry rabies.

            But doesn’t the fact that they refused to get the kid shots because he didn’t like needles indicate they knew rabies were a risk? If they didn’t know about rabies, why were they concerned about getting the kid a shot?

          • kilda

            yes and they knew enough to tell him not to touch the bat in the first place. It really seems like they knew enough to be properly scared but just somehow weren’t.

          • Roadstergal

            The story I read said that they called – I wasn’t sure if it was the hospital or their doctors’ office, but some legit medical center – and were told about rabies and to come in for the shots. So, utterly inexcusable.

          • kilda

            wow. yes, if that’s true, then that really is inexcusable. Honestly, if someone told them that, and they still didn’t do it, I think they should have charges filed against them. That’s even more culpable than the idiots who let their child die of meningitis while treating it homeopathically.

          • FallsAngel

            Good questions, and I think you know the answers. Certainly if the dad googled “bat bites” he came across the information.

          • Yeah, one screwup is understandable, and I wouldn’t want to beat up parents for a lapse in judgment; persisting in it to the point where you don’t get proper medical treatment, though, is pretty awful.

          • Claire Secrist

            Basically how I feel. A surprising number of people don’t know that bat bites can transmit rabies. The fact that Dad let the kid come into contact with the bat is bad, but not the primary parenting failure here. He googled what to do about bat inflicted wounds. He knew that vaccination was the only choice. They decided to wash the wound and call it a day. That’s where it becomes inexcusable.

          • kilda

            that’s what blows my mind. Right now if you google rabies and bat, all that comes up is 1000 articles about this poor child. But I can’t imagine that when he googled something like “child scratched by sick bat” he didn’t see a whole bunch of pages telling him to get his child seen by a doctor immediately. I don’t understand how he could do that google search and conclude that washing it out really well was a viable option.

          • MaineJen

            Who knows? He may have come across some loony page like our friend Cia would consult, saying “people can develop rabies antibodies naturally, all you have to do is wash out the wound, pharma shillz are just trying to sell you vaccine” etc.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s a nonzero chance that Cia Parker has a body count.

          • Claire Secrist

            He totally saw all those articles and ignored them.

            But anyone who doubts people’s ignorance about rabies should ask around. You’re going to find people who don’t know that bats are even mammals

            /Former science museum employee and recipient of post exposure rabies shots

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            i wonder if there was a bit of an epidemic in my area when I was little with the bats, because I was under the impression that bats might have rabies was common knowledge. Ah well.

          • Roadstergal

            I got that hammered into my head at a young age, as well. Dogs and bats. Hm, I wonder if it was a Midwest thing?

            Which is a pity, because I love bats. 🙁

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            not with my family; we’re Connecticuters

          • FormerPhysicist

            Raised in VA. Knew that bats can have rabies. Also knew to get information and treatment if ANY animal bites or scratches you.

          • momofone

            Same here, except I’m in the South. It was drilled into us never to approach animals we didn’t know because of rabies.

          • FallsAngel

            Pennsylvania, too! Also here in CO where I now live.

          • MaineJen

            I recently went to an ID seminar on rabies…that is some Scary Shit. There are cases all the time where a bat is found in someone’s bedroom (flies in through a window), and they are given the vaccine series because there’s basically no way of knowing whether they’ve been bitten or scratched in their sleep, especially if it’s a young child or a disabled person who’s unable to speak. Bat teeth are like little needles, and they often leave such a tiny mark (or no mark at all!) that you wouldn’t think anything of it.

            Bottom line: do not touch a bat. Like, ever.

            I never liked bats to begin with. Now….NOPE

          • Roadstergal

            Noooo, they’re adorable! 🙁 Especially little bat puppies!

            Stupid rabies.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuvaos1WHTk

          • MaineJen

            It’s the fingers. I just…I can’t

          • StephanieJR

            Sky doggies!

            I would love to pet a fruit bat, in a wildlife centre or something. They’re so cute.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            One of my favorite summertime activities is to sit in the lawnswing and watch the bats swoop by.

            Last year had bats move into the bathouse.

          • MaineJen

            I agree, I like watching bats fly, because they eat mosquitoes, and mosquitoes suck. And because they fly far, far up in the air 🙂

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Bats around us will swoop down to under 10 feet. They’ve never come close to my head, but they’ve flown over.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            For a second there I thought it said “bathhouse”. Oops.

          • Amazed

            Yeah. I didn’t know bats can transmit rabies. I don’t know which animal can transmit what. This is why I always go with the safe side – go over to the hospital and freaking ask!

            For the record: I did know a dog that bit me could have inflicted me with rabies. That’s why I headed over to the hospital, the needle and so on.

          • Ooh, scary! Yikes.

      • Jack Sprat

        We call it adulting. Some times you get tired of adulting, however it is singly the most important job you can have; and there is no day off.

        • Claire Secrist

          It comes down to exactly this. They had a responsibility, they were told the seriousness of the risk, and they chose this path.

          • Jack Sprat

            And it sucks.

      • Claire Secrist

        The odds approach 100% that he would have survived. It’s. It’s not just probable, it’s almost certain. They signed his death certificate.

      • Kerlyssa

        i’m taking a bit of solace in that the treatment used for symptomatic rabies meant that he wasn’t awake and suffering, at least

    • FallsAngel

      I hate to upvote that!

      • Roadstergal

        Yes. “Thank you for delivering the information, but fuck, that information…” 🙁

    • Box of Salt

      I am so sorry for the boy and his family.

    • Namaste

      I can’t say I’m surprised. The Milwaukee Protocol may be the only thing we can do, but it’s still a real long shot. I am trying very hard to show a modicum of understanding to the parents, but i have to admit, it isn’t easy. They really dropped the ball. I’m sure they know that, though, and I’m sure they will be haunted by that knowledge for the rest of their lives.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      Poor, poor lad. I’m heartbroken. I knew there was very little chance of saving him, but I wanted desperately for him to be the exception.

      I’d like to shake those parents so hard – and keep shaking them. And then shake all the parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids, and show them all the tiny coffins their selfish attitude fills.

    • Amazed

      Poor little guy. And for what? To spare him some crying? Does someone think that he did not cry when he was hooked to all those machines in the hospital?

      I want to slap his parents right across their murdering faces. These monsters killed their child. End of story.

  • Jack Sprat

    So close to 2000! Come on now!

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      2053! I expect it’ll be closed when AT wakes up.

  • I will take 40C any day of the week! Right now we’re dropping to about -5C and you’d think the world is ending 🙂

  • Tigger_the_Wing

    LOL. Nearly woke hubby!

  • John Snow

    vaccines = autism

    • Nick Sanders

      assertion ≠ truth

    • Roadstergal

      Well, I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m convinced.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        Must be because he upvoted his own comment, yes? That’s always convincing.

    • Claire Secrist

      How many clowns can fit in this car, anyway?

      Hopefully you have a point. Not everyone is a bigot against people with autism, so we fail to see what point you’re making even if that hilariously discredited nonsense were accurate.

    • Jack Sprat

      Is it raining in Palm Beach today?

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      Wrong. It’s autism = vaccines.

      https://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4033

    • Azuran

      You know nothing, John Snow.

    • namaste

      It’s spelled Jon Snow, not John. Just so you know.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        Not if he’s named after the English Doctor who was ‘one of the fathers of modern epidemiology’ as Wikipedia puts it, but yes, the English newsreader, brother of Peter Snow, is Jon.

        • Who?

          I think namaste may have been making a Game of Thrones reference…

          JS is wrong, whoever he is referencing.

        • namaste

          I was thinking along the lines of the Game of Thrones character, which I assumed he was referencing.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Ah, sorry; I haven’t read those books.

        • StephanieJR

          I just love watching Jon Snow dance.

    • Who?

      Well, now you put it that way….

      I can confidently ignore you.

    • ciaparker2

      Absolutely right about that. Vaccines = autism, murder, seizure disorders, cancer, asthma, allergies, Kawasakis, PANDAS, retardation, but the purveyors of the mandated poisons will not stop until they’ve forced them into every last person in the world. Literally the last persons in the world.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        Which is why, with increasing numbers of vaccines, the population of the world has plummeted in my lifetime…

        No, wait. It has actually trebled and people are healthier than they’ve ever been, and living longer. Much longer. But you won’t respond to this, because it blows your assertions out of the water.

      • Roadstergal

        I’m sticking with my theory from the other day. Starving her newborn to the point where her pediatrician was shocked was a turning point for Cia Parker. She either had to realize that she did a bad thing that has real negative consequences, despite meaning well – or build a narrative where everything she did was right, and it was all the fault of… the vaccines, yes, that was it! And she now is so invested in this narrative that all she can do is double, triple, quadruple down. If you’re trying to make starving a baby look like a minor act, you have to believe the people who don’t agree with you are literally tossing babies in furnaces…

        • Daleth

          Starving her newborn to the point where her pediatrician was shocked was a turning point for Cia Parker. She either had to realize that she did a bad thing that has real negative consequences, despite meaning well – or build a narrative where everything she did was right, and it was all the fault of… the vaccines

          I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Cia, can you forgive yourself for nearly starving your baby? You didn’t mean to do it, you didn’t know you were doing it, you loved him and meant well. Can you forgive yourself?

          You don’t have to spend your life being angry at something. You don’t have to choose between being angry at yourself or being angry at “Big Pharma.”

          People make life-altering mistakes. There are people whose mistakes killed an innocent person, or more than one innocent person. Yours didn’t, but it was life altering. But can you forgive yourself, please?

    • The Vitaphone Queen

      Anti-vaccine rhetoric = ableism

      • ciaparker2

        You remind me of the rabbit owner here who said, that if her rabbit had a disabling reaction to the myxo vaccine, that’s all right, she’d love her anyway. No thought to her own guilt in making the decision which resulted in her disability. Oh, sure, I crippled you, you can no longer hop around and are in great pain because of my mistaken decision to vax you. But that’s all right, I screwed up, I love you anyway.

        You seem to now be admitting that vaccines do horrendous and permanent lifelong damage to a large percentage of those who get them. True. But you seem to be saying That’s all right, we’ll love them anyway. Sure, we’ll be glad to see our taxes quadruple to feed, house, clothe, protect, and entertain the millions of those brain-damaged by vaccines, or who suffer horrendously from autoimmune conditions caused by vaccines. WE don’t care if we robbed you of your ability to use or understand language or maintain friendships or employment. WE will say to our dying breath how great you are despite our having deprived you of everything which makes life worth living, so we don’t have to say that WE are criminals who disabled you for our own profit.

        So far you’re just asserting your great love for those disabled by vaccines, but without yet coming forward with actual provisions for their care and safety. And you haven’t yet put the decision as to whether or not to risk the enormous dangers of vaccines into the hands of well-informed parents.

        • The Vitaphone Queen

          Even if I had children OR pets who were vaccine-injured, I WOULD STILL LOVE THEM. So yes, I am like StephanieJR.

          • ciaparker2

            You’re really that dense? The question is, that if you’re drunk and carelessly shoot someone in your yard thinking it’s a burglar, and it turns out to be your child, does it really matter if you still love the child or not? You caused his death or serious injury by your reckless behavior. OBVIOUSLY you continue to love your child. But you killed him because of your criminal negligence.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            There is a difference between drunkenly shooting your child (or anyone else) and VACCINATING YOUR CHILD. Vaccines SAVE LIVES.

          • FallsAngel

            Don’t bother with her. She’s obviously gone off the rails. The rest of us know what you’re saying.

          • Box of Salt

            She’s already in the process of disengaging this discussion: see her bragging about how many commenters she’s blocked.

          • ciaparker2

            And FA is one of them.

          • FallsAngel

            I’m crushed!

          • ciaparker2

            OK. Iron deficiency can cause death. So it’s a good idea to give iron supplements to those who may be deficient. But is it a good idea to give triple the recommended dose every day for ten years? If you were to do so, you would be negligently doing something which is going to kill the person you’re giving it to. You meant to save his life, and instead you kill him.

            Vaccines can save lives. Agreed. But not as often as the medical establishment says, and vaccines also very often cause severe damage. The immune system always reacts to vaccines with inflammation: if it didn’t, no antibodies would be produced. But this inflammation is often excessive, especially if the baby is very young, has gotten a lot of other vaccines, or is genetically more vulnerable to vaccine damage than most. And it often causes inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), causing stroke-like damage, inflammation of the digestive tract (bowel disease), or inflammation of any other organ or body system. And it often sensitizes the immune system to vaccine ingredients, resulting in any of hundreds of autoimmune diseases.

            Every parent has to research the vaccines available and the incidence and seriousness of the vaccine-preventable diseases in his or her time and place. Remembering, of course, that some diseases might/would come back if a lot of people stopped vaxxing for them. It is a complex decision, but since their child’s life and mind are riding on their decision, they have to buckle down, research it carefully, and make a decision. Remembering that nearly all doctors have decided to play along with the pharma companies’ lying propaganda. Not everything they say about vaccines and VPDs is false, but a lot of it is, and it’s up to the parents to research it, and not believe anything medical professionals say without independent verification. The childhood diseases are GOOD for children to get naturally, meaning measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox. They should deliberately be offered to schoolchildren at the end of the school year to let them get natural and permanent immunity. Offered, not forced. A different disease every year. Maybe measles first grade, chickenpox second grade, mumps third grade, and rubella fourth grade. Diseases like flu, hep-A, rotavirus, and pertussis are rarely dangerous in the well-nourished developed world, and parents should be taught appropriate ways of nursing children who have them, with no fever reducers. A and C as appropriate. Homeopathic remedies in the case of threatened complications. Most children have immunity to local kinds of meningitis by the age of five, but parents must know the symptoms of meningitis and get conventional medical treatment with antibiotics as quickly as possible if these symptoms manifest. Parents must consider their own circumstances and make a choice. Hib only if the baby under 18 months old is not breastfed and is in daycare. I think the DT is good for most children to get after two years old. The polio series only if polio came back here, and no compulsion: it remains true that even during the worst of the polio outbreaks, most children got immunity from subclinical polio, or just got a flu-like illness and never permanent paralysis. I personally would get it for my daughter if polio came back, but would leave it to the parents to decide in their own cases. No hep-B for any child but those born to infected mothers or those with a close family member who had it (although in that case the family might just choose to be very careful about not letting the children have contact with infected blood). No HPV vaccine, which is very dangerous.

          • Azuran

            And how do you think ‘offering’ to infect kids is going to turn out? Those kids will be contagious and they will contaminate the kids whose parent’s have declined to infect, or babies in parks or supermarket.

          • ciaparker2

            Did I mention polio as one of the harmless childhood diseases I’d want to deliberately give children? Please give the passage in which I said that. I did not. I said that polio was usually harmless, and that I would not force parents to get it for their children if that were their well-informed choice. I said that IF polio came back I’d give the vaccine booster to my daughter, but would not force others to do the same.

            Yes, the kids would be contagious. I said the end of the school year so they could stay home for a few weeks. Everyone in the community would be informed as to this practice, and everyone could take the measures that seemed appropriate to him. Vaccine boosters if they chose. Take the chance of getting the usually harmless diseases, nurse them correctly, and get their benefits, if that’s what they chose. Keep young babies sheltered at home for their protection, treat with high-dose IV vitamin C, homeopathic, and naturopathic remedies as appropriate. The childhood diseases I mentioned were all viral, so in the absence of bacterial complications, antibiotics would not be called for.

          • Azuran

            You still think that even OFFERING people to contaminate their child with polio should be a things. That is absolutely disgusting.
            And it doesn’t matter if it’s the beginning of the summer PARENTS WORK They send their kids to summer camps, kids go outside and play with one another during the summer. People can’t take weeks off to keep their kids home. You can’t ask everyone who might be vulnerable to stay inside for weeks because it’s the time of the year where we purposefully infect kids. You’d be forcing MILLIONS of people to lock themselves inside their homes and stop going to work for weeks, ALL AT THE SAME TIME every single week. You’d destroy the freaking economy!!!

          • ciaparker2

            I did not say that. Read it again. I said that people should be offered to have their child deliberately given the natural diseases measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox (one at a time). I did not say polio. I said that if polio came back, people should know that it is usually harmless. And that is true. There seems to be an anatomical susceptibility to developing a crippling case. But I certainly recognize how devastating it could be in those cases. I said that I’d get the vaccine booster for my own daughter if it came back here, but would let others choose for themselves, since the polio vaccine, like all others, CAN be very dangerous, even fatal.

          • Roadstergal

            Why don’t we have polio here anymore, Cia?

          • Jack Sprat

            Me thinks you be blocked too.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m sure I am. It’s still useful to expose Cia Parker’s nutbaggery for the nutbaggery it is.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I did not say that. Read it again. I said that people should be offered
            to have their child deliberately given the natural diseases measles,
            mumps, rubella, and chickenpox (one at a time). I did not say polio. I
            said that if polio came back, people should know that it is usually
            harmless. And that is true.”

            You have said that before Cia.
            This is what you claimed:
            “Natural diseases are harmless and beneficial and should be encouraged, as they confer permanent immunity and avoid the need for dangerous vaccines which all cause encephalitis which causes stroke-like lesions in the brain, causing autism in the majority of children who get them.
            I favour the option of letting children get the various diseases naturally, starting with measles, pertussis, mumps, rubella, polio and Hepatitis, and letting them get strains of meningitis bacteria which are harmless in children and build up immunity against later invasive infection.”

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            If vaccines cause autism in the majority of children who get them, why isn’t the prevalence >90%? 😀

          • Mike Stevens

            Well she won’t say but I suspect she thinks it just hasn’t manifested properly yet.
            The vaccines all cause “encephalitis”, which causes damage to the language and cognitive areas in the brain, which causes autism.
            So that would mean we all have autism.
            And that’s before we even get to the evil toxins like saline, sucrose and of course extremely heavy metals like Aluminium are taken into account!

          • ciaparker2

            Boy, you’re non compos mentes. Are you a native speaker of English? I said that the program I propose would be advertised by all the media, and everyone in the community could choose whether to get the vaccines for the diseases or take their chances with maybe getting them. I SAID I’d offer to give all first graders natural measles at the end of the first grade year, all second graders chickenpox, etc. What would be at the same time every single week? In a short time, everyone susceptible would either have had the vaccines or the natural diseases and have permanent immunity.

            I don’t care what they choose. But the greatest benefit for the greatest number of children would be for them to get the natural diseases, and everyone would have to work out how to deal with the temporary inconveniences. They would all be a LOT easier to deal with than a lifetime with autism.

          • Claire Secrist

            Hey real quick, explain again why anyone here is supposed to take you seriously when you spend all your free time doing this. I’m starting to believe your daughter doesn’t exist, because I couldn’t fit care for a disabled person into a full time schedule crapping in comments sections.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            She posts way more than I do, and I spend my life mostly in bed with nothing else to do but go online. Arthritis flare-up making it impossible for me to crochet at the moment.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            If you don’t care what they choose, why are you pontificating on a subject about which you remain woefully undereducated?

            People already get to choose; vaccination isn’t compulsory. Your comments show that you really do hate that 95%+ of people think that you lot are nuts, and happily get themselves and their offspring and pets vaccinated against diseases.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You’re obviously no Latin scholar. It’s non compos mentis. Don’t criticise another person for your own faults.

            When I was a kid, and those diseases were rampant because we didn’t yet have vaccines available, they didn’t dutifully restrict themselves to one year group of children. They’d sweep through the entire school.

          • Mishimoo

            Don’t be silly Azuran – she probably expects women to stay at home and nurse the children, not both parents! It would still mess up the economy, but at least her goal would be achieved: women out of the workforce, out of fulfilling work, and back home where they belong.

          • Azuran

            Also stupid to think that this would all die off after 2-3 weeks, those kids you infected would be contagious, they would infect other people, who would infect other people and on and on and on. It wouldn’t die out after 1-2 weeks, you’d cause an epidemic that would last months every single year.

          • ciaparker2

            Stupid not to realize that in a short time, a few months, in many cases, everyone susceptible would have been exposed to the disease(s) and either gotten a clinical or subclinical case. That’s the way diseases work, they burn through a population and then die down, because there aren’t many people still susceptible around. And then, yes, every few years there would be another outbreak, and the new children would get it. Just the way it used to be. And everyone would get the stronger, better-trained immune system conferred by the natural diseases. But yes, everyone afraid of the diseases would know that they should get the vaccine for them and take their chances with that.

          • FallsAngel

            You don’t know a damn thing about epidemiology, parker. The incubation period for measles, you dope, is up to three weeks. Why were these diseases endemic in the US prior to vaccine, if your program works? Please explain in great detail.

          • Mike Stevens

            Her programme of “natural infection”, would, according to data produced by JAMA, mean that there would be the following each year:
            https://www.drclaudiaanrig.com/research/JAMA%20Historical%20Comparisons%20of%20Morbidity%20and%20Mortality%20for%20Vaccine-Preventable%20Diseases%20in%20the%20United%20States.pdf

            Measles… 440 deaths
            Mumps …..39
            Diphtheria..1822
            Pertussis….4000
            Rubella…….17
            Cong Rubella 2000
            Tetanus……472
            Acute Hep A 137
            Acute HepB..237
            HiB…………..1000
            Pneumococcus 6500
            Varicella…….105

            Grand total = 16,769 deaths each year.
            I leave out Polio, because she seems to have changed her mind about that one now.

            Of course, she says that none will die, because she will personally ensure they all get Vitamin C, homeopathy, avoid fever suppressors and are nursed in darkened rooms.

          • FallsAngel

            As cia has said, she can live with that.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t even want to know about the long term disability numbers…

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Which sick adults is she volunteering to nurse?

          • Mike Stevens

            Just pray you never get ill…

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m laughing again, but having to suppress it. Pain keeping me awake, but hubby is sleeping.

          • momofone

            Just make sure that vitamin C is administered via IV and everyone will be fine.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Just so long as it isn’t vitamin K. For some reason, giving that life-saving vitamin is anathema to the cult.

          • Nick Sanders

            The C stands for “Cure”, the K stands for “Kill”. I thought everyone knew how vitamins were named!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            What the hell is the point in having a trained immune system if you’ve already had the diseases?

            The point of vaccines, as people keep telling you, is to train the immune system without taking on the risks, the suffering and the damage of the actual full-blown diseases. Oh, and avoiding death and disability, of course. How does dying make a baby’s immune system stronger?

          • Who?

            Do keep up Tigger: it’s so you maybe won’t get cancer you probably would not have got anyway, decades down the track.

            Only the poor, brown or otherwise disadvantaged usually die, and cia is unconcerned with those people. And anyone rich and white who dies is just unlucky, and also a victim of modern medicine’s failure to pull miracles out of a hat, and cia doesn’t care for unlucky people either.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            It’s amazing how many people my age and older I know, who got cancer despite having had all those diseases. It’s almost as if cia is… shhhhh… lying.

          • Claire Secrist

            Cia thinks valid babies don’t die.

          • Roadstergal

            You sure do push homeopathic crap a lot. By Cia Parker logic, that means you’re getting kickbacks from Big Placebo.

          • Mike Stevens

            Your entire family seems to be incredibly unhealthy, and prone to recurrent diseases and infections, Cia.

            Could your aversion to vaccines be in any way connected?
            (Well that as well as your repeated deliberate attempts, sometimes successful, to infect your poor daughter with infections).

          • joe

            “polio was usually harmless,”Yeah tell that to my three schoolmates that died of Polio in 1954.

          • Who?

            What an absolute disaster for those children and their families and classmates. And what a traumatic thing for a community to go through.

            Look out for cia saying they must have been poor/brown/undernourished or otherwise unworthy of life. Because those, according to cia, are the only people who die of vpd, and their deaths are okay.

          • joe

            Once again sir, you hit the nail on the head, and yes we all know Cia.

          • Acleron

            People survive Ebola, therefore it is harmless. Sheesh

          • Mike Stevens

            In fact, Cia is on record somewhere saying ebola is not dangerous (except to a select few unfortunates who are black or poor or something). She cites the lower case fatality rates from more recent outbreaks as indicating the virus has become non-pathogenic.

            Whilst there is some biological drive to evolve in this manner, it does not happen over months or even years, as Cia thinks, it takes decades/centuries to happen.

          • Acleron

            I suspect the lower fatality rate is more to do with the heroic efforts of the local health care workers. The after effects of Ebola, if survived, is nothing to enjoy either as Pauline Cafferkey would endorse.

          • shay simmons

            I suspect the lower fatality rate is more to do with the heroic efforts of the local health care workers.

            Many of whom paid the ultimate price, including high-ranking public health officials.

            http://www.who.int/features/ebola/health-care-worker/en/

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Your daughter caught EV-D68, coughed for over a month, and lost some of her hearing due to meningitis, and all you can say is ‘otherwise completely recovered’?! How on Earth can you be so heartless? This is a girl who is already suffering, and you brush off a dreadful bout of illness, resulting in further disability, as if it were nothing?

            I sincerely hope that the meningitis was ‘diagnosed’ by you, and is as imaginary as the vaccine reaction you invented to blame for her disability. Poor girl.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            It was only a -little- hearing loss. Most of the time Cia doesn’t even notice. /s
            (Truly, Dem and I don’t think about mine often, since my good ear works just fine.)

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “She had mild hearing loss in one ear as a result of meningitis associated with the illness, otherwise completely recovered.”

            That’s a keeper..

          • FallsAngel

            This is the first time we’ve heard about this! The story is ever-changing.

          • ciaparker2

            I am so happy to see so many avatars with “This user is blocked” beside them.

          • Box of Salt

            ciaparker, it’s really brave of you to ignore those who disagree with you.
            /sarcasm.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You do realise that you are the only one who sees that, right? Everyone can still see what you have typed, everyone can still respond, and everyone but you can read the responses. The only person remaining wilfully ignorant is you.

          • Who?

            No, no she doesn’t realise that. She thinks she has made them disappear.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Thanks for the laugh!

            “Abracadabra!”

          • Mike Stevens

            Here is another one Cia.
            And you’ll never know what I am saying about you…..

          • Proponent

            Funny that..

            ciaparker2 can figure out how to block someone on Disqus.

            But.. everything else (change your avatar, post an image to a discussion, *and and..) … is beyond her abilities and comprehension of this e-platform.

            … …

            ( *Recall her claims of being ‘stealth blocked’ and her comments being removed by ‘one of us’ … till ‘she clicks them back in’ from her profile page.)

          • Roadstergal

            Do parents also have to research and decide for themselves about whether a week without food is good for a newborn? Or do you just take that as read?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            What a lot of drivel. You have, yet again, failed to provide an iota of evidence for any of your claims concerning the dangers of vaccination. HPV is perfectly safe – millions upon millions of doses have been given, and it protects against several cancers.

            If you prefer anecdotes to verifiable, repeatable data, though, what about those ‘adverse events’ during the clinical trials? What researchers know, but Cia won’t admit, of course, is that an ‘adverse event’ is not a ‘side effect’. All adverse events are recorded during a clinical trial, for completion. The researchers need to know who got sick and/or died for any reason, so that their records are accurate. I looked at the data for one HPV trial, during which several participants were injured and some died. Not one was caused by the vaccine – they were caused by vehicular accidents, falls, even gunshot. But I suppose that, if you are Cia, dying by gunshot must be the fault of the vaccine; so I wonder what she’d make of the fact that there were fewer gunshot deaths amongst those who received the vaccine than amongst the controls?

          • FallsAngel

            Another flag and downvote. Knock it off, cia, or get off the computer.

          • momofone

            “But you killed him because of your criminal negligence.”

            As you do if you fail to protect him or her from preventable harm, as in with vaccines. I am sorry you are guilt-ridden about your situation with your daughter, truly. But you at this point are so far beyond rational thought that I am concerned for your well-being. Please get help.

          • ciaparker2

            There is a difference in degree. If you wet the concrete while watering the garden and someone slips on it, that’s quite different than if you shoot him while drunk based on mistaken identification.

            If you have researched the vaccines and know how often they disable as a group or one vaccine in particular does, and you refuse it because the disease is not common or has not been dangerous in your area, then you have made a well-reasoned decision, and no one can do more than that.

          • Roadstergal

            Why do you talk about ‘research’ when you’re incapable of reading even the M&M section of a paper?

          • momofone

            The issue is that you have not researched vaccines, and you have disregarded the opinions of those who have in favor of quackery.

          • ciaparker2

            Tell me the vaccine you have in mind, and let’s discuss it. You cannot say “vaccines” as a monolith: the diseases are by no means equal in seriousness or frequency, and the vaccines by no means equal in risk or necessity. Saying vaccines monolithically as though all were safe and necessary, and every child should get all seventy recommended doses and every adult the seventy some-odd recommended for THEM, is what has landed us in our present state of millions crippled mind and body by vaccines.

            And EVERY PARENT had better bear in mind that there are legions of pharma shills, employed or benefitting by the vaccine industry in some way, including most doctors, who are going to push them to give their child ALL seventy doses by 18, and over half of them are going to be severely damaged by them, starting with asthma and/or allergies, but working up quickly to autism in one in 36. They’d better talk to those who remember 1987 (before the Vaccine/Autism Epidemics) and find out just how fearsome it was to live back then, how often children died of contagious disease, and also how many had autism and/or autoimmune disease. How many had to eat gluten, casein, grain, corn, soy-free because of bowel disease the way one in ten children has to do now.

          • momofone

            Sorry, no.

          • ciaparker2

            So you are afraid to take up the challenge I have offered, to specifically discuss any vaccine you like as to its risks and benefits, as well as those of the disease it is meant to prevent. We cannot discuss facts if you are unwilling to do so. I urge you again to give me a vaccine, or give me a vaccine-preventable disease, and I can give you all the facts about them which a parent should know before consenting to the vaccine. Or anyone else here at this site.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “So you are afraid to take up the challenge I have offered, to
            specifically discuss any vaccine you like as to its risks and benefits,
            as well as those of the disease it is meant to prevent.”

            Alright.. here’s two of the diseases and their respective vaccine that you ‘recommend offering to children/parents’.. along with their associated risks..

            https://teamvaccine.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/side-effects-chart2.jpg

            … …

            Oh, and.. no bare assertions. Back your stuff up.

            Now.. go..

          • ciaparker2

            OK. My thrice-vaccinated baby (DTaP) got pertussis anyway at eight months old and gave it to me. It was very unpleasant coughing ten coughs per breath, and it lasted a long time, but it wasn’t dangerous and we both completely recovered. When she got the DTaP booster at 18 months, it erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. The new DTaP continues to cause asthma (one in nine), allergies, seizure disorders, SIDS, and autism. And it is miserably ineffective.

            Sweden didn’t give the pertussis vaccine from 1989 to 1997 because the vaccine was so dangerous, but prolific pro-vaccine author Arthur Allen says in Bucking the Herd that 60% of Swedish children got pertussis in those years, but statistics show that there was less than one death a year from it. Because pertussis evolved to become much less dangerous than it had been in the nineteenth century.
            Dr. Justus Strom, 1960, “It may be questioned whether universal vaccination against pertussis is always justified, especially in view of the increasingly mild nature of the disease and of the very small
            mortality.”

            Dr. Douglas Jenkinson, 1995, “Most cases of whooping cough are relatively mild. Such cases are difficult to diagnose without a high index
            of suspicion because doctors are unlikely to hear the characteristic cough, which may be the only symptom. Parents can be reassured that a serious outcome is unlikely. Adults also get whooping cough, especially from their children, and get the same symptoms as children.”

            “During the 1960s and 1970s, two leading European
            physicians, Dr. Justus Strom of the Hospital of Infectious Diseases in Stockholm, Sweden, and Dr. Gordon Stewart, professor of community medicine at the University of Glasgow, Scotland, began to question the use of mass vaccine programs in their respective countries, especially when the natural course of pertussis HAD BECOME MILDER in both countries, and the death rate from pertussis was very small. In addition, the neurological complications from the vaccine seemed to be more widespead than
            anyone imagined.” (What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization, Jamie Murphy, p 72-3)

            “In 1977, Dr. Stewart reported that pertussis declined in incidence and mortality in Glasgow, during epidemic years from 1900-1957 (i.e., before the vaccine was introduced in the UK). (Gordon Stewart,
            “Vaccination Against Whooping Cough: Possible Implications for Assessment of Vaccine Efficacy,” Lancet, March 20, 1982: 668)

            “In a study comparing different aspects of pertussis in vaccinated and unvaccinated children, in family, school, and hospital settings during 1974 and 1975, Stewart revealed that there was no difference between the duration of illness, the severity of illness, the general incidence of whooping cough, or the number of primary and secondary cases of whooping cough in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.” (ibid 74)

            ” Sir Graham Wilson, the senior doctor responsible for the control of infectious diseases in England and Wales, said: ‘Whooping cough has now such a low death rate that the advisability of continuing vaccination against this disease must be seriouslyquestioned, particularly when there is reason to believe that vaccination has played little part in bringing about its fall.’ (Wilson GS, “The Hazards of Immunisaton, the Athlone Press 1967, 281) At the same time as the start of the scare, Professor George Dick, a senior UK doctor and immunization expert, wrote in 1974, “I am not entirely convinced that the community benefit of
            whooping cough vaccination outweighs the damage which it may be doing.” (Dick G, “Convulsive Disorders in Young Children,” Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, 1974, 67; 371-2) (in The Truth About Vaccines, Dr. Richard Halvorsen, p

            “…an epidemic of whooping cough hit the Shetland Islands in 1974. The same proportion of immunised children caught the infection as unimmunised children, suggesting the vaccine offered no protection at all.” (Ditchburn RK, “Whooping cough after stopping pertussis immunization,” BMJ 1979; 1: 1601-3)

            “Furthermore, during the 1978 epidemic, a period of high notification, only one in twenty unvaccinated children were reported to have caught whooping cough, the remainder apparently escaping the disease. Even Professor Elizabeth Miller, the government immunisation specialist at the
            Health Protection Agency, conceded in 1980 that not only were more cases of whooping cough notified in the 1978 outbreak, but, even allowing for this, the
            death rate was lower than in previous epidemics. (Miller E, “Whooping Cough Notifications,” (letter) The Lancet 1980; 718) In other words, even
            at the time, health officials were admitting that whooping cough was becoming less of a killer disease despite the drop in vaccination.” (Halvorsen 100)

            “…mortality rates from pertussis were declining even
            before the advent of the vaccine. Indeed, in the US, infant mortality from pertussis declined 70% from 1900-04 to 1935-9. In England and Wales, infant
            mortality from pertussis declined approximately 90% from 1918 to 1948 before widespread use of the vaccine. ..The decline in pertussis-related mortality
            prior to the institution of widespread immunization has led some researchers to argue that pertussis vaccine is currently superfluous and that it should be
            abandoned except for high-risk groups.” (Mortimer, “Pertussis Vaccine,” 82, in Plotkin and Mortimer Vaccines)

          • ciaparker2

            On measles:

            http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/low-fatality-rate-in-european-measles-outbreak-cdc-report/#.VkVL3rnluUk

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1522578/pdf/amjphnation00499-0004.pdf

            http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

            http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/measles-perspective/

            http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles

            In 1960 in the US, 99% of children got natural antibodies to measles by 18. There were four million cases a year, with 450 deaths. Measles, like pertussis, had become a lot less serious than it had been in the nineteenth century, and it became a routine relatively mild disease of childhood that close to all children got and no one worried about. The high fever it caused trained the immune system in both specific and non-specific protective functions which did a lot to ensure the child’s good lifetime health, even protection from many kinds of cancer.
            Yes, pneumonia occurred in one in twenty cases, but it was usually viral, meaning mild and self-limiting. When it was bacterial, it could usually be treated with antibiotics. The other complications like bronchitis, diarrhea, and ear infections, were usually mild and could be treated as they usually are. Dr. Michaela Glockler said in the 2004 edition of her book A Guide to Children’s Health that based on her own experience in treating many children with measles and that of her colleagues, it was not true that one in a thousand measles patients got encephalitis. She said it was really only one in 10,000, one in 15,000 toddlers, that NOT giving fever reducers would PREVENT it, and that the prognosis was usually good for complete recovery.

            Complete bed rest during fever, enough fluids to prevent dehydration, giving the appropriate dose of vitamin A (even for well-nourished patients) prevents most complications, no fever reducers, and staying home to recuperate for two or three weeks after the day the rash appears, will ensure a successful measles recovery.

            When infectious diseases of childhood are not mismanaged by the administration of antibiotics, or by suppressing fever, the diseases prime and mature the immune system and also represent developmental milestones.
            Having measles not only results in life-long specific immunity to measles, but also in life-long non-specific immunity to degenerative diseases of bone and cartilage, sebaceous skin diseases, immunoreactive diseases and certain tumours as demonstrated by Ronne (1985).
            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/01/29/measles-vaccines-part-ii-benefits-of-contracting-measles-by-dr-viera-scheibner-phd/

          • Proponent

            Sorry.. once again, do not pass GO..

            I posted this link above, I’ll post it again now.. scholarly, peer-reviewed articles/research.

            Please edit out your nonsense (links 404’ing for example.. <bare assertions (<– recall that was in my original post that you are responding to here)), thanks.

            … …

            Or.. once again..

            Maybe.. just maybe.. you can reduce your wall of text into something that actually supports your stated position of; 'the risks of the vaccines outweigh the risks of being infected with the disease'.

          • ciaparker2

            The interested reader must evaluate my information as he sees fit. I’m not interested in whether you accept it or not. Measles and pertussis are relatively mild diseases for the vast majority of those who get them. Measles confers many benefits, and it may be that pertussis does at well. It is MUCH better to get either or both of them than to be damaged for life, even killed, by the vaccines. The interested reader can easily find the statistics for himself. Five years ago, over 48,000 Americans were diagnosed with pertussis, most of them vaxxed. There were twenty deaths, many of them in young newborns. In the measles outbreaks in the US in the last decade, including the infamous Disneyland one which was really just business as usual, there has been one death, of a severely immunocompromised woman who was vaxxed. Both the MMR and the DTaP frequently cause autism, as in my daughter, but since Pharma does not wish to keep statistics on this, it is hard to tell, but the autism rate according to the CDC itself is now one in 36 children, up from three in 10,000 thirty years ago. Almost all of them caused by vaccines.

          • momofone

            Wow. You must have made quick work of the urgent translation and homeschooling you had to do (instead of responding to a legitimate question).

          • Who?

            Google translate-just pop your words in, and publish the nonsense that it spits back. All in a day’s work for cia, I’m surprised it took as long as it did.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “The interested reader can easily find the statistics for himself.”

            And yet.. you didn’t. In near a half dozen posts since the gauntlet that *you* threw down.. wonder why..

            … …

            Grade: F

            Additional comments: The student fails to grasp the rudiments of virology, epidemiology and immunology. And demonstrates extreme difficulty in staying focused with any of the subject material provided.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I can’t watch that, but thank you for posting it.

            Back in the mid-eighties, in the UK, there was a ‘vaccine scare’. People – including doctors – were convinced by anecdotes that the DTP vaccine was causing epilepsy, and GPs refused to give it (they used DT instead) to family members of anyone who had seizures. Despite my begging (on the grounds that if the pertussis vaccine could cause seizure in the vulnerable, how much worse would the disease be?), my GP and his colleagues refused to vaccinate my daughter against whooping cough because her aunt and one of her brothers had absence seizures following theirs.

            When my daughter was a toddler, the inevitable happened. With too few people being vaccinated, there was an epidemic. I have never been so frightened for my child’s life as I was while I was nursing her through whooping cough. It was a horrible time, and it went on, and on, and on…

            To this day, more than three decades on, I cannot bear to see a baby struggling for breath.

          • shay simmons

            The interested reader must evaluate my information as he sees fit.

            It’s crap. Next?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Dr. Michaela Glockler said in the 2004 edition of her book A Guide to
            Children’s Health that based on her own experience in treating many
            children with measles and that of her colleagues, it was not true that
            one in a thousand measles patients got encephalitis. She said it was
            really only one in 10,000, one in 15,000 toddlers, that NOT giving fever
            reducers would PREVENT it, and that the prognosis was usually good for
            complete recovery.”

            That’s what she said in the 2004 edition of her book.
            As you well know, in later editions of her book she retracted those claims.

            When I pointed this out to you, you claimed that she must have been bribed to do so by BigPharma.
            Lie, lie, lie, I’m gonna lie until the day I die…. Cia Parker’s MO.

          • Nick Sanders

            You forgot, old data is good, new data is bad.

          • Mike Stevens

            Indeed. The other remarkable claim was that Dr Glockler said her encephalitis claim of 1 case in 10,000 cases of measles was based on her own observations and that of her practice partners, which begs the question… how many hundreds of thosands of measles cases did they see in order to arrive at an estimate of encephalitis that was statistically robust? 100,000? 400,000?

            Here is what she says now about encephalitis:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0a3ad1ec637c8e24532906222b378793f0546e92a6a4efbf2148ee82f6142e31.jpg

          • Nick Sanders
          • Proponent

            You ignored my requests. Which were..

            “Oh, and.. no bare assertions. Back your stuff up.”

            First paragraph of your post is an anecdote, for example.

            … …

            And by “back your stuff up”.. I am referring to scholarly, peer-reviewed articles/research.

            Not books.. not rapid responses to a medical journal and and … please edit your post.

            Or.. maybe.. just.. maybe

            You could actually address the issue of these two diseases/vaccines and their associated risks/benefits and condense your mish-mashed, wall of text to something cogent for the readers..

            i.e. The risk of death from measles and that of the vaccine are..

            Go..

          • Who?

            Don’t hold your breath.

          • ciaparker2

            You want to do another one? I’ve got to translate and do homeschooling now, but I”ll be glad to do another one with you as soon as I have time. Or with anyone else brave enough to do so.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “You want to do another one?”

            You haven’t presented anything that supports your stated position. Which is.. the risks of these vaccines outweigh the risks of acquiring the diseases.

            … …

            Have to give you an F, for your efforts, thus far.

            Just the evidentiary facts, ma’am, according to the current body of medical information/research … thanks.

          • Mike Stevens

            “So you are afraid to take up the challenge I have offered, to specifically discuss any vaccine you like as to its risks and benefits, as well as those of the disease it is meant to prevent.”

            Then: “I’ve got to translate and do homeschooling now…”

            Usual Parker prevarication… she can’t answer; someone called her bluff, so she plays for time.
            Funny how she has to “translate” at really inconvenient moments in time, yet she always has loads of time to spend disseminating lies on the internet.

          • Peter Olins

            Homeschooling? What steps have you taken to ensure that your bitterness and cynicism don’t damage your child further?

          • Jack Sprat

            Far too late Peter. Elsewhere in this thread Cia states her daughter questioned her physician about mercury etc. Poor child.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m sure she homeschools to keep her daughter from ever being exposed to an alternate viewpoint or novel way of thinking.

          • FallsAngel

            I think cia’s daughter is in special ed, plus cia does this “homeschooling, e.g. teaching her about how bad vaccines are. I am not making this up; supposedly the DD had a conversation with her doctor about vaccine injury.

          • kilda

            which still puzzles me because I could swear she said her daughter was nonverbal.

          • FallsAngel

            I know. The story keeps changing all the time on just how disabled this child is.

          • Claire Secrist

            I’m sure Cia has a pip of an explanation for why her nonverbal, I mean verbal, child, is still damaged and truly autistic. This probably explains why sometimes she thinks verbal autistic people aren’t reeeeally autistic, and other times she does.

          • Claire Secrist

            No one believes you are doing anything else with your time but blithering in comment sections. There’s positive proof that you do this way too much to be homeschooling, translating, or caring for a sick child. I don’t know what’s happening to you kid while you so this. She’s probably accustomed to disgusting you so much that you spend all your time online posting her personal medical history to prove why she’s worthless.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I have two grandkids who are a less than a year older than her daughter. Both, like all my grandchildren, are fully vaccinated. Neither has had a fraction of the illnesses that her daughter has struggled through, and both are very fit and healthy.

          • FallsAngel

            Exactly! And low platelet count can occur with measles disease, as well, so it’s not a complication just of the vaccine. I couldn’t find a rate, but I have read it’s more common with the disease than the vaccine.
            https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/measles/symptoms-causes/syc-20374857

          • FallsAngel

            Well, whadda ya know? Seek and ye shall find: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2011/04/acute-thrombocytopenic-purpura-mmr-and.html
            “We have, then, a known risk of thrombocytopenic purpura following MMR
            vaccination. It occurs at a rate of roughly 2-4 per 100,000 doses. . . Now we get to the question that I asked Dr. Jay: what is the rate of
            acute (or idiopathic) thrombocytopenic purpura following natural
            infection? Information on the rate of ATP following infection was a bit
            more difficult to find.(Note: I found that to be the case as well.) Yenicesu, et al. (2002), found that following viral infection, ITP occurred about 13.3% of the time. Likewise, Rajantie, et al.
            (2007) found that thrombocytopenic purpura occurs more frequently
            following natural infection than after immunization, and that
            vaccien-associated TP is generally mild and resolves within 6 months in
            about 90% of cases. Ünal, et al. (2009), also describe mumps as a cause of ATP. Tucci, et al.
            (1980) discovered subclinical thrombocytopenic purpura in 55% of
            children with measles, 25% of children with mumps and 30% of children
            with rubella, among other viral causes.

          • momofone

            “We cannot discuss facts if you are unwilling to do so.”

            Precisely.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            “I urge you again to give me a vaccine, or give me a vaccine-preventable disease, and I can give you all the facts about them which a parent should know before consenting to the vaccine.”

            Translation: “Name a disease, or the vaccine associated with it, and I’ll pull out some rectally-sourced Gish gallop which bears no resemblance to reality.”

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            As a dietitian, I counsel patients with inflammatory bowel disease, celiac disease, and food allergies. The prevalence is nowhere near one in ten. It is closer to 16 per 100,000, which, if you can do the math, is much less than one in ten. I don’t know where you pull your numbers from, but mine come from Statistics Canada.

          • ciaparker2

            Well over 90% of autistic kids have bowel disease, and one in 36 children now has autism. Check the schools. A huge percentage of them have gotten the necessary doctor’s recommendation that they eat gluten-free, casein-free, etc.-free, lunches at school, and every school has a gluten-free meal available, though only for those who have the doctor’s permission. So if you can do the math, if every school, with five hundred to one thousand students on average, has a large enough number to have gluten-free meals to give every eligible student, right there it’s many times more than 16 per 100,000. I submit that you’re just another pharma shills benefitting in some way by propagating the pharma narrative exonerating vaccines.
            Talk About Curing Autism has a four-week menu plan on their website for eating gluten and casein free on foodstamps. Because, again, most autistic children have bowel disease, most chronic constipation, some chronic diarrhea, autistic enterocolitis in other words, and they all benefit greatly on this diet. When I put my daughter on it in 2011, it stopped her chronic, permanent, severe, painful constipation which didn’t respond to high fiber or any of the other usual remedies, but within two days the diet COMPLETELY stopped the constipation. She also takes digestive enzymes before every meal and probiotic coconut yogurt or SCDophilus at night.
            Doctors now have been told to evaluate for bowel disease every time they make an autism diagnosis (now in at least one in 36 American children). And many other children have it as well, even if they were lucky enough to escape the autism. And it is another aspect of the vaccine damage: chronic inflammation of the GI system.
            In the ’80s, there was not gluten-free anything in any store. Now EVERY store has several aisles of gluten-, casein-, grain-free, soy-free, etc. etc. food. Because SO MANY are now gluten etc. sensitive or allergic who never were before. My daughter is one. If she deviates from her diet, it makes her constipated for several weeks, and it’s back to Miralax, Colace, Natural Calm, Milk of Magnesia tablets, and Smooth Move tea. Megadoses. But once she’s back on the diet, it settles down.
            Are you a dietitian who retired thirty years ago, perhaps? Before the Vaccine Epidemic?

          • ciaparker2

            Just found this on irritable bowel syndrome. Just one of the many kinds of bowel disease. Johns Hopkins says here that 15% of adults have it, and it’s organic.

            Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), which is classified as a functional gastrointestinal disorder, is a chronic condition of the lower gastrointestinal tract (Figure 1) that affects as many as 15% of adults in the United States.
            Not easily characterized by structural
            abnormalities, infection, or metabolic disturbances, the underlying mechanisms of IBS have for many years remained unclear. Recent research, however, has lead to an increased understanding of
            IBS. As a result, IBS is now considered
            an organic and, most likely, neurologic bowel disorder.

            https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/_pdfs/small_large_intestine/irritable_bowel_byndrome_IBS.pdf

          • ciaparker2

            This is a book I got nearly three years ago with the reasons causing the bowel disease, how frequent it is in the autistic, and how the Specific Carbohydrate diet (grain-free, but permits homemade yogurt fermented for 24 hours to predigest the lactose) benefits autistic children and others with these conditions. If you will look at any of the many websites dedicated to the SCDiet, GAPS, or Paleo diets (why do you think so many have gone on the Paleo diet and say it completely resolved their bowel disease?), you’ll see how extremely common these problems are these days. They weren’t before the Vaccine Epidemic.

            The SCD for Autism and ADHD: A Reference and Dairy-Free Cookbook for the Specific Carbohydrate Diet

            Raman Prasad, Pamela Ferro, Nilou Moochhala

            Also this one, which I’ve used a lot. Also has very interesting explanations as to the cause of these diseases.

            The Kid-Friendly ADHD & Autism Cookbook, Updated and Revised: The Ultimate Guide to the Gluten-Free, Casein-Free DietApr 1, 2012

            by Pamela Compart and Dana Laake

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            How many books is that now that you’ve tried to ‘shill’?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Tigger_the_Wing

            From https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gaps-diet/

            “If you listen to your desires for food, you will be able to digest that food and it will only do you good because you ate it at the right time, when your body asked for it.”

            Hell, no! I get cravings for pork pie – how would indulging them help me digest something like that? I’ve been on a GF diet for almost a quarter of a century, after my lifelong inability to reach a normal weight was tested and diagnosed as Cœliac disease. And I’ve been meat-free for almost ten years, when creeping spasticity in my colon made it impossible for me to digest meat. Despite two surgeries, I got blockages if I tried eating it – I’d far rather forego certain foods than risk ever having that again.

          • Nick Sanders

            If I listened to my desires for food, I’d weigh about 100 lbs more than I do (which is already too much), and my blood would be nothing but cholesterol and sugar.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            If I listened to my cravings, I’d be back down to skeletal in no time flat, not to mention the horrible gut pain in the interim. That’s the thing about a GF diet – if you have Cœliac disease it doesn’t help with weight loss as the woosters seem to think, it helps with weight gain.

          • shay simmons

            And beer. Let’s not forget one of the most important food groups.

          • Heidi

            I would surely weigh a lot more on the GAPS diet. I noticed from their own website that patients can only “handle a few tablespoons of animal fat per meal.” Like, um, fat has 120 calories a tablespoon. A few tablespoons alone is enough calories for one meal, and I guess one is supposed to increase their intake to several tablespoons. I’m pretty sure animal fat, despite what the Paleo/GAPS/caveman/whatever similar quack diet, isn’t exactly loaded with an abundance of micronutrients. Of course, if they end up gaining weight or not losing weight, I’m sure it’s all the toxins their body has accumulated and for $59.99 you can buy some detox supplement!

            I tried low carb a few years ago and a damn nut flour muffin, which the GAPS lady suggests, a small muffin at that, ended up clocking in like 700 calories. And I was still hungry. After I lost the initial water weight, I didn’t lose anything and felt like crap. It definitely did not improve my mental health running around with a blood sugar in the 50s.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            There’s no evidence behind the paleo diet. If people lose weight and feel better on the paleo diet, it’s because they’ll eliminated a lot of processed, junk food. They would have done just as well following the healthy plate model (1/4 plate healthy protein, 1/4 plate high fibre carbohydrate, 1/2 plate vegetables and fruit – more veggies than fruit, and at least two kinds) without needing to eliminate entire food groups!

            The GAPS diet is absolutely ridiculous, with no evidence backing it up. You don’t need to combine pH as the diet recommends – if your body isn’t capable of regulating its pH, you’ll end up in the hospital, because you will be very ill. The SC Diet is ridiculous as well. Instead of trying to explain why, here’s a good explanation from a fellow RD, MPH:
            https://www.celiac.ca/pdfs/blood%20test-rev.pdf

          • ciaparker2

            Showing that you know nothing about autism and bowel disease. Totally don’t get it about the autoimmune reaction to carbohydrates. Casein resembles gluten very closely, which is why these sensitivities or allergies usually go together. Read about Kelly Brozyna’s daughter Ashley here:

            https://www.thespunkycoconut.com/category/recovering-ashley/

            and learn how she dealt with her painful bowel disease and some of her symptoms of autism by using the Paleo diet. And, as I said, every member of her family has benefitted from it, not just the autistic child. Celiac, failure to thrive and digest food, ADHD, Ginger is the only family member without issues addressed by the Paleo diet.

            When I first put my daughter on the GFCF diet in 2012, the pediatrician thought it was a bad idea, that she would have nutritional deficiencies. But I did it anyway, and within two days her painful severe permanent constipation was normalized. My neighbor had recommended a very high-fiber breakfast cereal, and I bought it, but my daughter continued to have severe problems, even taking a lot of remedies like Miralax, Colace, Milk of Magnesia, Natural Calm, and Smooth Move tea every day. I was worried about taking her off of all high-fiber everything, I thought she’d never find relief that way, but I was wrong. As soon as she was off the gluten and casein, she was normal. It was literally two days from the time she started the new diet. A year later I put her on the grain-free diet and she did even better. Read the website Pecanbread.com or TACA (Talk about Curing Autism) for more on how these diets help those with bowel disease, which includes virtually all autists.

            For those with chronic diarrhea, there are many sites which explain the progression to follow. First, nothing but cooked chicken or ground beef, homemade chicken soup, cooked carrots and zucchini, cooked apples and pears, bananas. After a few days you work up to the next level if there are no problems, adding the recommended foods for that level one at a time, and stopping at the recurrence of bowel problems, going back to a simpler level. The book I recommended yesterday, The SCDiet for Autism etc. includes a version of this plan, versions of which can be found all over the Internet now, because it is so effective, healing conditions once thought incurable. Prasad, the co-author of that book, has written other cookbooks in which he describes his own bowel disease and how much he suffered from it, and how he was healed by the SCDiet.

            The SCDiet was designed by a woman, Elaine Gottschall, whose daughter nearly died of her bowel disease, and no one had any idea how to treat it. And the diet cured her, allowing her to live a normal life (except for the dietary restrictions). The specific carbohydrate diet (only carbs allowed low-carb fruits and vegetables, simple carbohydrates, not complex or starchy) has cured many thousands of people with bowel disease. I spoke on the phone once with Lucy, author of Lucy’s Cookbook (which we use constantly): she said she had been on the diet herself for over thirty years, and it had completely healed her bowel disease, and she felt no desire to even try to go off of it. Kelly Brozyna said the same, that she no longer even wishes she didn’t need to follow this restrictive diet, that they’re “good.”

            Many parents of autistic children swear by the GAPS diet (Gut and Psychology Syndrome), and how it has alleviated psychological (organic) symptoms of their autism as well as their bowel disease. It is very easy to google it, read reviews of these cookbooks on Amazon, visit the hundreds of websites and forums devoted to these diets, bowel disease (now at well over 10%, as you saw in what I posted earlier), because of AUTOIMMUNE VACCINE DAMAGE.

            That’s the great thing about the Internet: we’re no longer at the mercy of crooks and liars, or those who simply haven’t kept up with the times, but can inform ourselves and find solutions.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            While I may not be an expert in nutrition issues commonly found among those with autism, my clinical nutrition resource, Practice-Based Evidence in Nutrition, collects the evidence from scientific papers written by people who are experts in their fields. Those with expertise in nutrition for autism have indicated that there is currently insufficient evidence to recommend a gluten-free or casein-free diet for those with autism.

            As for the paleo diet, the SC diet, and the GAPS diet, I can easily dismiss those as ridiculous diets. As a registered dietitian with a graduate degree in public health, I know how to critically evaluate diets and how to critically read and analyze any scientific literature pertaining to them. None of those diets have any validity whatsoever. They are pure bunk, and the SCD and GAPS prey on people like you, stating that you need to buy supplements to properly follow the diet, and of course, you need to buy their books and other resources as well. Whereas my services as a dietitian are free to anyone living in my city – the provincial government pays my salary. I’m not trying to sell anything, and it would actually be considered unethical for me to sell supplements. Yet the purveyors of these diets have no problem selling supplements, which would be considered unethical for any real health care provider.

          • Roadstergal

            “You don’t have to be a registered dietician to recognize these diets as bunk, but it helps.”

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I know a lot of autistic people and only one – me – with gut problems, because I’m cœliac and have EDS.

            Something can be a neurological disorder without being any other neurological disorder, or autism; it just means that it has something to do with the nervous system, and not all nerves are the same.

          • kilda

            thank you! such a simple concept, which cia is unable to comprehend.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Irritable bowel SYNDROME is not inflammatory bowel DISEASE. I realize they both have bowel in them, but otherwise, they are completely different, with only having symptoms affecting the bowel in common.

            IBS, while it can severely affect a person’s life, doesn’t come with any underlying pathology of the small or large intestine. IBD does. Both are partially treated with diet, but the difference in the diets required for each is rather large. Plus in IBD, diet in remission is different from diet when the disease is not in remission.

            From what we now know of IBS, it seems that some individuals with IBS are sensitive to certain FODMAPs that are present in foods. Figuring out which FODMAPs cause issues, with the help of a dietitian to ensure the diet is still adequate, can help many people. However, there is also a large psychological component to IBS, with many individuals reporting increased symptoms with stress, worry, etc., so learning stress management techniques is very important for those individuals.

            Out of the thousands of patients I’ve seen as a dietitian, I’ve had exactly two patients with autism. In both cases, their parents consulted me because their children had issues with certain food textures, not because of any bowel issues. Naturally, those parents wanted to ensure their children were consuming enough calories, from a wide enough variety of foods not to cause deficiencies. There is some fascinating research now being conducted on the relationship between gut flora and autism, but it is still very preliminary. We also don’t know if one influences the other or causes the other, or if they just both happen to occur at the same time. It’s interesting research, but there remains a lot of work to be done before we can link one with the other.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s why I said it was one of many kinds of bowel disease. My daughter has gotten the flu, I can’t look up anything right now.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “My daughter has gotten the flu, I can’t look up anything right now.”

            Yeah, darn those homeopathic flu nosodes.. worthless and utterly ineffective.

          • ciaparker2

            I got this year’s influenzinum for emergencies, but haven’t used it. It’s better for your immune system and general health to go through natural illnesses periodicially.

          • I’m sorry about your daughter’s flu. The worst 5 days of my 4-year-old’s life were when she caught flu at 7 months old. (It was toward the end of the flu season, so we didn’t get her vaccinated at 6 months. That was a mistake.) She couldn’t tolerate any Tamiflu, so all the poor bug got was fever reducers, water, and snuggles. My daughter’s immune system is pretty good and she was sick for less than a week, no complications, but I’m not especially anxious to see her lying feverish and suffering for the sake of “general health,” which I always thought meant “a lack of sickness.” Also, repeated bouts of flu sound rather like repeated rounds of Russian roulette–she might become very sick indeed and need a hospital, or even die.

          • ciaparker2

            My daughter had a low fever of a little over 100 twice, then 99 at bedtime, and seems fine today. She threw up the night before last, so I think she was sick. Her immune system is very good, she breast fed for years, until self-weaning, and had pertussis at eight and nine months old despite having had three DTaPs, and had chickenpox at nearly two. Many stomach flus and bronchitis a couple of times. EV-68 over three years ago. Two months after that she had a cough that lasted over a month. Now she’s rarely sick, had had nothing in the last three years, although it’s good to get sick sometimes to keep your immune system in practice. Apart from the massive brain damage done by the hep-B at birth, given without permission and against my express wishes, and the DTaP booster at 18 months, which caused her low-verbal autism, she’s very healthy (sarc intended).

            Health means a fast, competent response by the Th-1 cellular immune system to invading threats, which uses generalized responses and non-specific immunity. It means no chronic conditions and no cancer. Vaccines stimulate the Th-2 humoral, antibody-based, specific immune responses, which favor the development of autoimmune responses. That’s why parents should only accept a vaccine which is demonstrably necessary under the circumstances, a real and present threat which is usually very serious or fatal, not a just-in-case situation.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Was that whooping cough diagnosed by the same person who diagnosed her vaccine reaction? It isn’t possible to get whooping cough at eight months and then at nine months – the original infection lasts for at least three months, so I expect that she didn’t get a formal diagnosis.

          • Good, I’m glad she’s better. Doesn’t sound like she had flu, thankfully.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you. I’m glad too.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            “It’s better for your immune system and general health to go through natural illnesses periodicially.”

            Does the same apply to natural food poisoning? If not, why not?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            So, the only thing as useless as homeopathy is homeopathy kept in a cupboard. Right.

          • Roadstergal

            I mean, it’s not any _less_ effective in the cupboard.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Indeed, it should have been more effective if she didn’t actually take any.

          • Actually, it might be more effective; you have to succuss it against the side of the cabinet, and then the memory in the molecules will make your whole kitchen protected.

          • Jack Sprat

            Influenzium. Influenzium?

          • Roadstergal

            Emptium Walletum.

          • Jack Sprat
          • Roadstergal

            Processed sugar??

          • Jack Sprat

            Yet protected, for stability, by the feared and deadly Aluminium. Shudder. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ab49a6b0b8311b58c5ecdc34e57dc632893e2a779e538510bf4a3de5aa1afc49.jpg

          • Acleron

            It’s a homeopathy nosode so presumably starts with some mucus from a flu sufferer diluted sufficiently to ensure nothing is there, the claims for it are:-

            “strengthen the body and increase its resistance to the season’s flu viruses,
            protect against cold & flu symptoms such as body aches, nausea, chills, fever, headaches, sore throat, coughs, and congestion,
            enforce the flu vaccine’s action if you have opted for the flu shot,
            deal with aftereffects of the flu, and
            alleviate adverse effects of the flu shot.”

            The normal crazy claims.

          • Jack Sprat

            So you’re now shilling for BIG HOMEOPATHY! The numbers I see indicate annual revenues in excess of 7,000,000.00; but they’re not in it for the money.

          • Claire Secrist

            My kid had a very attenuated flu because of flu shot cross protection and the fact she got medical care. You’d rather your daughter suffer, I’d rather mine stay out of the hospital and feel better soon. Priorities.

          • Bored Now

            I got this year’s influenzinum for emergencies, but haven’t used it.

            So your plan in an emergency, like someone near death with the flu. Is to give them a 9C dilution of the virus they already have by the billions in their body? Or is it if you see the viruses coming. If so, do you wait until you see the whites of their capsids?

          • shay simmons

            do you wait until you see the whites of their capsids?

            You win the Internetz.

          • Mike Stevens

            “My daughter has gotten the flu, I can’t look up anything right now.”

            I’m genuinely sorry for her Cia. Of course you should be caring for her rather than waste your time on the internet. Anyone with an ill child would want her to be better…
            [Tell us again how when she was a newborn you left her constantly screaming in pain from a serious illness and unable to feed for 4 days, but kinda forgot to call a doctor to see her or to take her to the ER…]

            Of course your daughter got flu- there is a lot of it about and she hasn’t been vaccinated. Did you deliberately infect her with the flu, so she could “strengthen her immune system”? I am sure that with extra intravenous vitamins and homeopathy she will bounce back very quickly, leaving you with time on your hands to be a menace to society by spreading lies and antivaccine propaganda on line.

            I hope she doesn’t suffer any febrile episode with her flu. You do know how these trigger oxidative stress, and how with her underlying hereditary Neurexin-1 gene deletion she sustains brain damage each time this happens?

            It must be a big dilemma for you… Give a fever reducer to stop her getting worse brain damage, or let the flu and the fever run riot to “strengthen her immune system”. I’m glad I don’t have to make that decision. I sincerely hope for your daughter’s sake that you make the correct decision, but if previous experience is anything to go by I am sure you won’t.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            Goodbye, Cia. I wouldn’t wanna be ya. Or be your daughter.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s amazing how often people confuse IBD with IBS.
            Of course, Cia is no exception. She always gets the “wrong end of the stick”, and has little proper medical knowledge.

          • shay simmons

            Have you any evidence that parker has ANY proper medical knowledge?

          • Mike Stevens

            Nope, she has absolutely none. She did biology to grade 9 I recall.

            She’s fairly bright, but terribly biased and suffers terminal cognitive dissonance and significant Dunning Kruger syndrome traits.

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t have time to say much, I have a long proofreading to do. But I found this, which indicates that 12% of people have antibodies to gluten in their blood (I had said 10% had bowel disease), while 29% test positive in fecal samples. I have a book by Dr. Thomas which says that when he started medical practice thirty-five years ago, almost none of his child patients were gluten-sensitive (meaning they had no bowel disease), while now a large percentage of them were. I’ll have to look it up to get the percentage. So what is making so many people gluten (and casein, which closely resembles gluten) sensitive? You have to have an antigen appear in your bloodstream to be sensitized to that and similar substances, and vaccines are the absolutely ideal tool to do that. And nearly everyone has foolishly sensitized themselves to myriad common substances by taking large numbers of vaccines. My daughter, like nearly all autistic kids and 10% of kids in general, has to stick to a restrictive diet which is a pain, or she gets a recurrence of her bowel disease, even though she takes a digestive enzyme capsule before eating ice cream at Baskin Robbins as a reward or pie or cutout cookies during the holidays. We’ve tried many gluten-free recipes for making them, but none is good.

            “There are tests that measure the presence of anti-gliadin IgA (a gliadin antibody) in the blood and in the stool. Antibodies in the blood mean that gliadin made it through the intestinal lining into the blood, where the body mounted a defense against it; antibodies in the stool indicate the presence of antibodies in the gut, where the body has mounted a defense. Gut antibodies, however, come before blood antibodies. For that reason, fecal antibody tests are regarded as more accurate for testing gluten sensitivity, because blood antibodies only show up after significant intestinal damage has allowed gliadin to pass through. You could test positive for fecal antibodies and negative for blood antibodies if your intestinal lining remained fairly intact.

            One study found that around 12% of healthy people’s blood samples tested positive for antibodies to IgG. Fecal tests, however, indicate that around 29% of healthy people test positive. If the fecal antibody tests are accurate and reflective of gluten sensitivity, that’s nearly a third of Americans!

            https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-common-is-gluten-sensitivity/

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Just a quick glance at the chemical formulas makes me wonder how on Earth gluten and casein could be similar.

            Gluten:
            C24H27N5O9

            Casein:
            ‎C38H57N9O9

            Looking at 3D pictures of them online makes them look even less alike.

            Could you please link to the actual papers which support your assertions?

          • kilda

            they both have Cs and Hs and Ns in them of course! And they have 2 syllables and end in an n.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Oh, silly me – they both have nine oxygen atoms! That makes them totally the same!

          • Roadstergal

            “(and casein, which closely resembles gluten)”

            Nope.

          • Mike Stevens

            Perhaps “Dope” would be more appropriate?

          • Roadstergal

            I think Cia is breaking Disqus – that comment posted accidentally, and then it took 5min to edit it. :p

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s not even her own words, it’s a copy and paste from the blog she linked at the end of her post. Here’s the study, which says nothing like what the author claims:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16835287

            Side note, I’m not even sure how one could have “antibodies to IgG”, given that IgG is a class of antibodies. I can only imagine that it would lead to death in a rather spectacular fashion.

          • FallsAngel

            “Side note, I’m not even sure how one could have “antibodies to IgG”,
            given that IgG is a class of antibodies. I can only imagine that it
            would lead to death in a rather spectacular fashion.”

            Yeah, I picked up on that, too. That’s what happens when you don’t know what you’re talking about. Proof positive for cia!

          • Roadstergal

            It’s a thing – rheumatoid factor is (typically) IgM-class anti-IgG. Some single-digit percentage of the healthy population is positive, and it’s an active area of research.

          • MaineJen

            We use “antibodies to antibodies” as reagents at work (fluorescent tags, to test for the presence of antibodies), but I doubt this is what cia meant.

          • Claire Secrist

            “I don’t have time to say much” apparently means “I have time to make multi hundred word comments hundreds of times a day”

          • Roadstergal

            To be fair to her, she actually doesn’t say much in those hundreds of words.

          • Who?

            Does someone pay you for proofreading?

            Never mind your outlandish attitudes to health, the thought of you proofreading as a commercial activity is flatout alarming.

          • Actually, unless she’s sneaking in “corrections” such as “vaccines maim and murder,” it sounds like a pretty harmless activity. Proofreading merely checks two versions of a document to ensure that one matches the other.

          • Who?

            If that’s all she’s doing, then apart from her patchy attention to detail, you’re probably right.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            That’s hardly a peer-reviewed journal article or a legitimate source of health information.

            My clinical nutrition practice guidelines (they require a login and password, so I can’t link to the resource) states that as of January 2018, there is insufficient evidence to recommend a gluten-free or casein-free diet for individuals with autism, unless they also have celiac disease (for gluten) or a milk protein allergy (for casein). The only universal recommendation for individuals with autism is to ensure that their iron levels are regularly checked, as iron deficiency is very common due to picky eating.

            IgA tests for celiac disease are only about 90% accurate: https://www.celiac.ca/pdfs/blood%20test-rev.pdf

            Only about 2% of the population has antibodies to milk protein (casein) and 4% have antibodies to gluten or wheat (reference: Practice-Based Evidence in Nutrition, a site that requires an account to access).

          • Roadstergal

            IBS = IBD? I guess having a broken leg and having milk leg is the same affliction, because they both have ‘leg’ in them?

          • Mike Stevens

            What else do we expect from a scientific ignoramus?
            She probably confuses toxicity from mercury with the late Queen singer.

          • Nick Sanders

            Laxative megadoses? Are you *trying* to dehydrate her?

          • Mishimoo

            Every comment Cia leaves regarding her daughter’s health points more and more towards factitious disorder imposed on another (Munchausen’s by proxy).

          • momofone

            I’ve wondered this myself.

          • Claire Secrist

            The kid has to suffer. She dared to be disabled and fuck up Cia’s ego. Anyone who has had to take large doses of laxatives knows that it feels frigging awful.

          • Roadstergal

            I’ve never had large doses of laxatives. I’ve tried a small dose when I was on opioids post-op, and it was HORRIBLE. I stuck with the stool softeners the doc gave me and got off of the opioids quickly. I can’t imagine megadoses. 😮

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve had a colonoscopy. I was quite willing to trample to death anyone who got between me and the bathroom door during the lead up. I shudder at the thought of having been on a solid diet at the time.

          • Empliau

            Have you read Dave Barry’s piece on his colonoscopy? My favorite line is “There are times when you wish the commode had a seat belt.” (of the prep, naturally) (although there’s nothing natural about that prep. I had to stop drinking it when I started vomiting, but I was cleaned out anyway.)

          • FallsAngel

            Doctors now have been told to evaluate for bowel disease every time they make an autism diagnosis

            Document.

          • Mike Stevens

            As you can see below, you’ve been “Parkered”; namely thrown a GishGallop of misquoted, irrelevant, inappropriate and incorrect information which has been mangled through the filter of Cia’s biased brain.

            Don’t expect her to reply to questions, and if challenged she’ll either swamp you with enough irrelevant word salad to feed a nation of vegans, or disappear from sight. The former is liklier.

          • Jack Sprat

            God damn right we benefit from vaccines; with our good health!

          • Proponent

            On the upside..

            This discussion is nearing it’s close, anyways, Jack.

            I believe Dr. Tuteur will shut things down soon. As the magic number of comments (2000) is being approached which will cause issues with the site possibly crashing.

            So..

            ciaparker2’s e-pulpit from which she spews her nonsense here will be gone shortly.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            True. And while this has nicely distracted me from my endo pain, I should probably get back to doing some real work.

          • kfunk937

            Sometimes I think the best reasons to engage are to keep them busy here (wherever here is), such that they don’t go off spewing some other place where (a) there’s less push-back, or (b) we’re unlikely to’ve picked it up atall.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            The prevalence of autism is not one in 36. Here in Canada, approximately 1 in 94 children is diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. And since it is a spectrum, some of those individuals are extremely high functioning, like my friend who works as a computer programmer and makes a six figure salary. See https://www.autismontario.com/client/aso/ao.nsf/web/Info+about+ASD?OpenDocument

          • ciaparker2

            Can’t you google anything yourself?

            “In the highest reported percentage ever for autism prevalence in the United States, a recently released survey of parents by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) puts the rate for autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) in American children at 2.76 percent, or 1 in 36.

            A November 2017 data brief reporting the new numbers culled information from the National Health Information Survey (NHIS). The survey was conducted 2014-2016.

            According to the NCHS, the new numbers do not represent a statistically significant increase in autism prevalence over the three-year period. In 2014, the rate was 2.24 percent for American children.

            Looked at another way, though, the 2.24 percent number placed the autism rate at about 1-in-45 children; the 2016 figure represents an autism rate of 1-in-36 children. The prevalence rate for 2015 was 2.41 percent, or 1-in-41.5 children.”

            http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=39581

            Yes, it is a spectrum. But in 1987, it was only three in 10,000 anywhere on the spectrum, and now it’s one in 36. Among the autistic, about one-third are non-verbal, another third are low-verbal (like my daughter), and one-third are high-functioning, but most have difficulty in relationships or even engaging normally with people, and few are self-supporting. Schools are foundering under the burden. And it’s caused by vaccines.

            A Prevalence Study of Pervasive Developmental Disorders in North Dakota
            Article in Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 26(5):700-3 • October 1987 with 7 Reads
            DOI: 10.1097/00004583-198709000-00014 • Source: PubMed

            1st Larry Burd

            2nd Wayne W Fisher
            40.38 • University of Nebraska Medical Center

            3rd Jacob Kerbeshian
            Abstract
            To determine prevalence rates for the pervasive developmental disorders (PDD) in North Dakota, all relevant health and service providers were asked to provide names and records of all patients who had autistic symptoms. All identified patients were seen by the authors for a comprehensive evaluation. Of North Dakota’s 180,986 children, ages 2 through 18, 21 met DSM-III criteria for infantile autism (IA), two met criteria for childhood onset pervasive developmental disorder (COPDD), and 36 were diagnosed as having atypical pervasive developmental disorder (APDD) because they met behavioral criteria for COPDD before age 30 months but never met criteria for IA. The prevalence rates were estimated at 1.16 per 10,000 for IA, 0.11 per 10,000 for COPDD, and 1.99 per 10,000 for APDD. The combined rate for all PDD was 3.26 per 10,000 with a male to female ratio of 2.7 to 1. Results are discussed in relation to previous prevalence studies using other diagnostic criteria.

            http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2965024-3/abstract

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709650243

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            It is quite rude to keep quoting stuff without linking to it. Readers therefore have no idea whom you are quoting.

            I must say, though, that it is fascinating that you trust the CDC when it comes to statistics showing autism prevalence rates, but not when it comes to statistics showing the safety of vaccination.

            In case anyone is interested, the data are here:

            https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db291.htm

          • shay simmons
          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Autism is not caused by vaccines. The increase in prevalence is due to increased diagnoses, as we understand ASD better and better. For instance, two of my friends who work as computer programmers, and who are in their 40s, were NOT diagnosed as children, only as adults. One of them was only diagnosed after one of his children was found to have autism.

            I’m not in the U.S., so I’m quoting Canadian figures, as that is my reality. The reality is that, in Canada, the prevalence of autism in children is one in 94. About 1% of the Canadian population (children, teenagers, and adults) has ASD.

            I have no idea where your figures come from and if they are reliable. Mine come from reliable government statistics and legitimate non-profit organizations working in the sector.

            See https://www.autismontario.com/client/aso/ao.nsf/web/Info+about+ASD?OpenDocument

            And even the 1 in 94 is an estimate. We don’t have hard numbers

          • Who?

            Oh dear, buckle up for a tutorial from cia about how she never met a rude or stupid child her whole life until she starved her baby.

            Or something.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Exactly! My husband was in his early fifties, and I was 49, when we got diagnosed at the same time as one of our sons.

            The vast majority of autistic people born before the early 1990s don’t have a formal diagnosis, especially if they are women.

          • Claire Secrist

            Cia doesn’t think anyone with an autism spectrum condition qualifies as a full human being. They’re all subhuman to her. She does not think they have jobs or friends, or that they are able to enjoy the arts. She also thinks that her definition of a real person is the one everyone should abide by. You’re up against one of the nastiest bigots you’re ever going to deal with re:autism.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Indeed. That’s bloody obvious. As it happens, I’ve yet to meet a proselytising member of the pro-disease child haters cult who isn’t ableist, racist and bigoted.

          • Nick Sanders

            Not just anyone with autism, anyone with any kind of mental handicap, or even just a lower IQ than she deems acceptable. To her, we are of “lesser moral worth” because we cannot consider morality as deeply as she can. Not that she actually displays any consideration of morality, or knows our actual intelligence, let alone our concern for doing right by others.

          • Nick Sanders

            Mostly her statistics come from someone’s rectum. I asked numerous times for the source of her 1 in 36 claim, but my requests were never even acknowledged.

          • Who?

            Aren’t you blocked? Or have you not yet joined the exclusive club?

            I must say the thought of being blocked by cia almost tempts me to sign up for a disqus account.

          • Nick Sanders

            She claimed she was blocking me. Since she thought that was done by clicking on someone’s avatar, I’m not sure if she ever accomplished it or not.

          • Heidi

            I also recall Cia claiming high functioning, verbal people who’ve been diagnosed with autism do not count as really autistic. So if one is to use cia’s standards, the number is much lower.

          • Nick Sanders

            Depends on the day. Sometimes we’re “not that autistic if we can talk”, other times, we’re “without empathy because of our autism, and unconcerned about those who have it worse, and just want to revel in our disease” or something like that.

          • Claire Secrist

            And of course it’s hilarious she even says the part about “you can’t be that autistic if you can talk”. She thinks any level of autism renders a person in permanent deficit of basic humanity. She’s explicitly said so. She doesn’t think it matters if we can talk. We still aren’t people, we’re just subhumans who can so a parlor trick.

          • Bored Now

            …and our vaccination program is easily as or more aggressive than the US depending on the province.

            One of the things I find interesting about the vaccine critical folk like cia is how enormous they seem to think the effect size of whatever problem they are currently blaming on vaccines is.

          • FallsAngel

            From what info I can find, no province in Canada recommends Hepatits A vaccine for all kids, while the US does. Other than that, for most provinces, the schedules are pretty much the same as the US.

          • FallsAngel

            And, all Canadian provinces recommend Meningitis C for 12 month olds, British Columbia also gives it at 2 months. So basically the same number of vaccines, but a couple different ones.

            ETA: Link- https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/provincial-territorial-immunization-information/provincial-territorial-routine-vaccination-programs-infants-children.html

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Yes, different provinces and territories do things slightly differently, depending on the epidemiology of the diseases in that particular area. Since health care is basically paid for by the province (it’s a lot more complicated than that, but that’s what it comes down to), they do a cost-benefit analysis and decide who needs to be vaccinated for what, and when.

            For those interested, here’s a long document about why the hepatitis A vaccine is only given in situations deemed high risk:
            https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/update-recommended-use-hepatitis-vaccine.html

            There’s a similar one for hep B.

            I was vaccinated for neither hepatitis A or B as part of routine vaccinations, but I was vaccinated against both when I was travelling to areas of the world where I could be at risk for infection. Those I had to pay for out-of-pocket, as travel immunizations are not covered, at least in the province I lived in at the time. Then when I started working as a health professional, I had to have my titres for both tested, to prove that I had sufficient immunity. I was also vaccinated against rabies. Had to have my titres checked for MMRV as well. Sadly the varicella immunity was acquired “naturally” which in my case meant being very ill, as I had pox in my mouth and down my throat and couldn’t eat or drink. Then I had the “pleasure” of experiencing shingles as a young adult (extremely painful, couldn’t sleep for pretty much several weeks until my doctor finally prescribed some decent painkillers) – it’s not just seniors who develop shingles!

            Interestingly enough, one of my good friends who serves in the Canadian Armed Forces has been vaccinated against anything and everything – he’s quite a bit older than myself and deployed for the first time during the Gulf War as a young Lieutenant. He’s the healthiest person I know – no chronic illnesses, blood pressure that’s better than mine, still running marathons in his 50s, and overall still deployable! And he’s had more vaccines than anyone I know. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but they haven’t done him any harm!

          • FallsAngel

            Hep B is a part of every province’s vaccine schedule now. The US used to only give Hep A to “high-risk” groups but changed their policy at some point in time. (Too lazy to look it up right now.)

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Right. I had forgotten that, as I don’t actually vaccinate any patients myself! I was thinking about the fact that not all provinces vaccinate for Hep B at birth (although some do). Here in Ontario it’s in grade 7. I know the people designing the schedules use the best evidence available to them, and that’s really what matters.

          • Bored Now

            You’re right. I forgot it’s only for risk groups right now (which in provinces like Vancouver includes all Native children). I’d say IMHO it’s not unusual for a doc to mention the A/B combo vaccine as an option though. Depending on where you are you can get it for $10-$20 a shot. Since the parent is probably going to vaccinate for B anyway.

          • Roadstergal

            With the popularity of piercings and tattoos these days (sorry, I’m Exhibit A), the HepB shot is an even better idea…

            Actually, if you do acupuncture – well, I mean, don’t do that, but that’s another way you can get HepB, so the shot is a good idea.

          • Bored Now

            Good point. My wife and I both had the combo shot before we went to Malawi. We had the kids vaccinated similarly before we took them to China.

          • Jack Sprat

            And we have good beer too!

          • Bored Now

            Sadly I’m more of a scotch man. The greatness of Canadian beer is somewhat wasted on me.

          • Jack Sprat

            They combination of good beer, and fine single malt scotch is something I am passionate about. The scotch was kept in the barn over the holidays. I love my family but not much.

          • Claire Secrist

            Haha I missed how funny this is. She told an MPH to Google facts about public health.

          • shay simmons

            Canada is not the US, parker. Reading comprehension fail.

            Again.

          • Verna Lang

            If you are maintaining that vaccines are responsible for the increase in the diagnosis of autism in the US, then you should also be crediting vaccines with reducing the number of children diagnosed with intellectual disability. Or you could just look at the graph and conclude that more children are given the more accurate diagnosis of autism rather than ID. Those kids now have a much better chance of being helped in a regular school environment rather than a restricted ID setting. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a3f279008705caead9f04c6d11ef87ae2ade268f04dfd71c2ef0e2cdba34d018.jpg

          • Azuran

            What about if your child gets hurt from a vaccine preventable illness that you didn’t vaccine against?

            Both have risks, we all agree on that, but the risks of vaccines are actually close to nothing compared to the risks of the illness. You are just wrong and deluded about the risks of vaccines.

          • ciaparker2

            Name the illness you think this applies to.
            Parents need to be well-informed. There is no 100% guaranteed choice which will always prevent all suffering from either a disease or a vaccine reaction. That’s why I cautiously recommend the DT vaccine (it’s no longer available as just the T, but the DT is less reactive than the T, and although diphtheria is gone, it would be bad if it came back). I very cautiously recommend consideration of the often-dangerous Hib vaccine for babies between six and eighteen months old who are in daycare and not breastfed. The disease had BECOME very dangerous by the ’80s before the vaccine (it hadn’t been very dangerous before that time, and it’s also true that we don’t know what would happen if it came back). One in two hundred babies got a serious case and one in a thousand died of it in the years right before the vaccine. Still not a huge number, and the vaccine IS dangerous, so I’d have to let the parents decide. Polio I’d recommend, but only if it came back here. Hep-B only if the mother had it. The other vaccines I don’t recommend, while every disease can occasionally kill or disable, I don’t recommend the others because either the vaccines are MORE dangerous, and/or the diseases are usually mild or beneficial for the vast majority.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            One in two hundred babies got a serious case and one in a thousand died of it in the years right before the vaccine. Still not a huge number, and the vaccine IS dangerous, so I’d have to let the parents decide.

            Do you honestly think that 1 in 200 serious cases of HiB (that is, 5,000 per million) are even remotely equivalent to a less than 1 in 1,000,000 chance of a vaccine reaction? And that a death rate of 1 in 1,000 (1,000 per million) is ‘not a huge number’ compared to zero deaths from vaccination? And that makes vaccines more dangerous? How?

            That is unbelievably evil. You are a perfect example of why I call people like you ‘the pro-disease child haters cult’.

          • Bored Now

            I don’t recommend

            Why are your recommendations worth anything? I mean just take a shufti at this

            the diseases are usually mild or beneficial for the vast majority.

            So that is, according to you sufficient reason to recommend avoiding vaccination. As long as a disease is mild or beneficial for the vast majority that is good reason to take this course of action..

            You would have a hard time pointing to a vaccine in the current schedule which doesn’t have mild side effects AND is beneficial for the vast majority. So your logic also says it’s also recommended to vaccinate. Since these are mutually exclusive options you have effectively shown that your rationale is inconsistent. It’s just cherry picked based on your own prejudices.

          • ciaparker2

            Every vaccine often causes very severe and permanent damage. So you need to agree to very few vaccines and only the most necessary ones in your time and place. The childhood diseases are actively very beneficial to go through naturally and are nearly always relatively mild. It used to be that most people had subclinical immunity to all of them by middle childhood, so, again, I don’t care what people choose. Natural immunity is better, but diseases like tetanus and diphtheria are so severe that I think the DT series (no pertussis) is a good idea after the age of two. However, tetanus was never common, never over a couple thousand cases a year (50% death rate before the vaccine), and diphtheria has been eradicated (unless it came back), so refusing even these vaccines would pose minimal risk and no risk of vaccine reaction.

            Those who don’t want to consider my recommendations are free to reject them. I don’t care. It’s their life. If they listen to you and your colleagues, their child stands a very high chance of getting autism, a seizure disorder, or any number of autoimmune diseases. A MUCH higher chance than that of having a disabling or fatal case of ANY of the VPDs. If that doesn’t faze them, if they get off on the religious ecstasy of the vaccine narrative, and don’t care about disabling their child for life, they are certainly free to do so.

            Even getting the DT series poses some risk of disability or death. So it is an important decision that parents must make carefully. As I said, I’d recommend careful consideration of the HIb vaccine for babies between six and eighteen months old who are not breastfed and are in daycare. The vaccine is dangerous, but under those circumstances, I think the disease is more dangerous.

            I don’t have to be dogmatic. I fully recognize that vaccines are always dangerous, and also that most of them are effective in preventing the targeted disease for a limited length of time (the pertussis and flu vaccines are very IN-effective and not ever worth taking the risk for). It’s up to parents to decide in which cases they judge the particular disease to be MORE dangerous to their child at his age and his time and place. And there are also homeopathic nosodes which are very effective at preventing all the vaccine-preventable diseases and which are, unlike vaccines, always safe.

          • Roadstergal

            “Every vaccine often causes very severe and permanent damage. ”

            Aaand there go the goalposts. They really are getting comically OTT, though. Pretty soon it will be “The presence of a vaccine in city limits will often kill puppies in that city.”

            “always safe”

            You can overdose on water and die. It’s happened.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            So, to you, a 50% chance of death from tetanus (and what an utterly hideous death it is) is ‘minimal’ risk?

            No risk of vaccine reaction, true (as if avoiding a slightly sore patch on your arm is more important than avoiding a gruesome disease); but then dying from pneumonia avoids an allergic reaction to antibiotics – so, according to your logic, we shouldn’t treat respiratory diseases either.

            Despite being asked over, and over, and over, and over again, you have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever for your astonishing assertion that “childhood diseases are actively very beneficial to go through naturally”.

            By the way, vaccine-induced immunity is natural – no magic involved.

          • Jack Sprat

            Okay, more BS from the bovine queen. Her statements have been sufficiently debunked here and across the world wide web, that it is pointless to continue with her. I am posting with the hopes of hitting the 2000 post mark quickly, and closing this thread.

            Have a great day.
            JSprat

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Perhaps we can take it in turns posting links to useful sites for the lurkers to read?

          • StephanieJR

            If you enjoy cute bunny pictures (and information about care), go here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rabbits/

            If you like reading about unsolved mysteries, go here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/

            And if you fancy a laugh, check these out:

            https://satwcomic.com
            http://www.cakewrecks.com
            https://wtfduolingo.tumblr.com

          • Bored Now

            Those who don’t want to consider my recommendations are free to reject them. I don’t care.

            Sorry if this was unclear. My question was: Why are your recommendations worth anything at all? Why do they have even the most microscopic likelihood of avoiding harm?

            I don’t have to be dogmatic.

            Well is there a point that you stop?

          • ciaparker2

            If you don’t care for my recommendations, don’t read them. Many ARE interested in my recommendations, being concerned about the massive crime being committed by the erstwhile trusted authorities, now robbers who care nothing at all about severely damaging or killing our children.

            You’ve thrown in your lot with the criminals. Fine. Do proceed as you like (at this time).

          • Bored Now

            If you don’t care for my recommendations

            I find it interesting that you can’t answer the question I’ve posed. Surely you must see that whether people like your opinion or not is the most worthless kind information you could possibly provide. Right?

            So, if it isn’t too much trouble. Can you tell me WHY are your recommendations worth anything at all?

            Many ARE interested

            However since you won’t answer this question to them. The people who are interested can’t be people who examine your recommendations critically. Right? Everyone here who examines your opinions in a critical fashion gets told nonsense like

            You’ve thrown in your lot with the criminals.

            . So therefore the only people you can interest are those without critical faculties. Which, is pretty unethical. Right?

          • ciaparker2

            I have spent thousands of hours studying many books on vaccines, vaccine-preventable diseases, and vaccine damage, including autism, since my daughter was vaccine-damaged. I know a lot more about these issues than most people, and I am not a client of the pharma industry in any way, so I am unbiased. I back up everything I say with outside sources, many of them from scientific studies or statements of physicians or scientists, many of them from those who have studied the issues independently, whether their family has been personally vaccine-damaged or not.

            Again, I don’t care a single thing about whether you approve or agree with anything I say. You are clearly one of the pharma defenders, and every word out of your mouth will redound to its benefit.

            Since all you want to do is bully me, I am blocking you.

          • Box of Salt

            ciaparker “I am unbiased”

            Wrong. Your are biased because you believe that “[your] daughter was vaccine-damaged.”

            You cling to that idea as if it were gospel truth, and you will allow no information to change it. That is biased.

          • ciaparker2

            I saw my daughter react to the hep-B vaccine with encephalitic screaming syndrome. I saw her lose her only words as soon as she got the DTaP at 18 months, when she said not another word for another year and a half. She was diagnosed with autism at 20 months, two months after the shot that erased her words.
            And what happened to her has happened to millions of other children, same symptoms, same result. You say it’s normal for a baby to scream constantly and inconsolably for four days and nights, when those who care identify it as vaccine-induced vaccine encephalitis, which often causes severe brain damage and autism. You say it’s normal to have started saying two words (delayed but progressing) and then have them disappear forever as soon as she got a shot. Sure it is. Totally normal to have your language erased.

            Do you realize how clearly dishonest your view is? And it really doesn’t matter: everyone now knows children whose language was erased by a vaccine (usually the MMR, sometimes other vaccines, as in our case, any vaccine can cause encephalitis), and they soon regress into autism.

            I found this website last night, with a lot of links related to vaccine encephalitis. We don’t need doctors to mediate for us between our experience and reality. Doctors have shown how craven or what industry slaves they are. We’re finding our own way. And we recognize industry liars when we see them.

            INFOPAGE: Encephalitis
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalitis
            INFOPAGE: Vaccine Inserts
            http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm
            STUDY: Deep sequencing reveals persistence of cell-associated mumps vaccine virus in chronic encephalitis
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27770235
            “The previously healthy proband developed fatal encephalitis after exposure to the live attenuated measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.”
            STUDY: Human IFNAR2 deficiency: Lessons for antiviral immunity
            http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/7/307/307ra154
            STUDY: Sudden infant death following hexavalent vaccination
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24083600/
            STUDY: Relative trends in hospitalizations and mortality among infants by the number of vaccine doses and age
            http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0960327112440111
            STUDY: Infant Mortality Rates Regressed against number of Vaccines
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/
            STUDY: Simultaneous sudden infant death syndrome
            http://www.greenmedinfo.com/…/simultaneous-sudden-infant-de…
            “This study reports a significant increase in the incidence of sepsis evaluations, respiratory support, and intubation after immunization of premature babies in the NICU.”
            STUDY: Differentiating Sepsis From Adverse Events After Immunization in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit
            https://jamanetwork.com/…/jamapedi…/article-abstract/2300374
            INFOPAGE: When the CDC Pertussis VIS says, “Lowered Consciousness,” It Means Hypotonic-Hyporesponsive Episode
            http://mainevaxchoice.org/…/when-the-cdc-pertussis-vis-say…/
            ARTICLE: The Vaccine Did It: Mutated MMR Mumps Virus in the Brain of a Child Caused His Death, British Researchers Confirm
            http://www.greenmedinfo.com/…/vaccine-did-it-mutated-mmr-mu…
            “Boys vaccinated as neonates had threefold greater odds for autism diagnosis compared to boys never vaccinated or vaccinated after the first month of life.”
            STUDY: Hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and autism diagnosis
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170
            STUDY: Adverse Events following 12 and 18 Month Vaccinations
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3236196/
            http://holisticlifemama.com/7-reasons-decided-not-vacci

          • Heidi

            No one is saying your daughter crying inconsolably for four days is normal. What we find abnormal is you didn’t seek medical attention for your daughter in a timely manner, especially considering your daughter had an eventful birth. We know that when you did go to the pediatrician, the pediatrician was shocked at how much weight she lost.

          • ciaparker2

            Because I had never heard of vaccine encephalitis, and did not know that its major symptom was constant, inconsolable screaming for three hours or more. My mother told the doctor, and he brushed it off as colic (which never occurs in the first week of life, and does not interfere with feeding). But because I didn’t know, hadn’t read it, the hospital staff didn’t tell me any symptoms to be on the lookout for, didn’t give me the vaccine information sheet, I couldn’t think of any reason my healthy baby would be screaming for sixteen hours a day for four days and nights.

            The doctor should have thought of it, should have asked questions about it, should have ordered a brain scan, but he didn’t. I doubt HE was aware of the existence of vaccine encephalitis.

            There are federal and state laws requiring free and informed consent to vaccines. But I recently found out that they do not apply to hospitals, which are allowed to give any shots they want to without permission. And so they’ve given the hep-B vaccine to millions of babies without permission and without warning the parents of the symptoms of vaccine encephalitis caused so often by it. Patti White at the congressional safety hearing on the hep-B vaccine in 1999 testified that the sudden avalanche of autism in Missouri kindergartners starting in 1996 (the hep-b vaccine for all newborns started in 1991) had been caused by this casual giving the very dangerous vaccine to all newborns (often without permission). So the parents of thousands of autistic Missouri kindergartners had had their newborns suffer from vaccine encephalitis, and they missed the diagnosis too. Because we are all taught that newborns cry a lot, and no one tells us that if it’s constant and inconsolable for over three hours, that means it’s vaccine encephalitis. Go on, go out there and take a survey of how many parents of newborns were warned about encephalitic screaming syndrome, quite common since 1991.

            And Merck promised to take out the mercury in 1999, at that hearing, but continued to sell already-existing mercury-containing stock until the expiration date in 2002. And so they gave my infant a mercury-containing vaccine to which she reacted with both vaccine encephalitis and mercury-poisoning. When I had made a special trip to the pediatrician a month earlier only to tell him I didn’t want her to get that vaccine.

            You lot play good cop bad cop. Half of you say it was abnormal and I should have realized it, the other half say it was obviously only colic and obviously no big deal. And then Mike Stevens flips a coin to decide which ploy he’ll use that go-round.

          • FallsAngel

            You don’t know what vaccine your daughter had. You’ve said that yourself many times over. You claim the hospital doesn’t have a record. I think it’d be funnier than heck if you found the record and she had a thimerosal-free dose.

          • kilda

            you needed to be told that constant inconsolable screaming for days was cause to take your baby to the ER? What the hell kind of parental instincts were you using? If she really did scream nonstop for days, you shouldn’t have had to be told anything about any particular diagnosis to take her in and say please look at my baby.

            which is why I don’t think she really did.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s right. I did not know it. I had always heard of parents saying that their babies kept them up all night with their crying. I thought that I was seeing why so many said that. If I had read or heard or if some medical professional had told me that constant, inconsolable screaming was the marker of a medical emergency, then I would have rushed her to the ER.

            But this scenario was new in 1991. My daughter was born in 2000, but unfortunately my large number of baby care books had all been written before the hepatitis-B vaccine began to be given at birth, and we first started to see large numbers of newborns scream constantly and inconsolably for hours on end, and we first started to see autism all around us. It would certainly have been helpful if, since the hospital took it upon itself to give a dangerous vaccine soon after birth to every single last newborn, without permission and WITH mercury, to have given us warning of the symptoms of the vaccine encephalitis which had become so common. If it even knew it itself, it should certainly have explained that the differences between harmless colic and disabling or fatal vaccine encephalitis were the following: colic never starts before the third week and it does not interfere with feeding. If it starts in the week after the hep-B vaccine was given without permission, especially between three and five days after the vaccine was given (in our case it was nearly four days), and if it interferes with feeding, then that means a medical emergency and bankruptcy and eternal shame for the negligent medical facility, and for the doctor who had promised not to give the hep-B vaccine after birth. But they care NOTHING about the bankruptcy and loss of reputation if it’s a question of saving an infant’s life and mind! The hospital should have known about the safety hearing in May 1999, which found that the vaccine was dangerous and should never be given with mercury. It should have known that it was giving newborns the shot WITH mercury even a year later, should have known it was dangerous and that many infants would react to it.

            But all you’re programmed to do is tear up the victims and defend the vaccine industry and its minions. You know what that makes you: I need not say it.

          • kilda

            then you, my dear, have piss-poor parenting instincts.

          • ciaparker2

            And the doctor, nurses, and hospital were criminally negligent, both in giving the vaccine without permission, without giving me the vaccine information sheet, and without any verbal indication of what severe symptoms indicating a vaccine reaction would look like. Criminally criminal in giving the hep-B vaccine WITH mercury and WITHOUT prior notice to or permission from the parents, twelve months after the congressional safety hearing which found it was very dangerous and should never be given with mercury. I’m sure Capital Region Medical Center got it at a cut rate as Merck was trying to unload all its mercury-containing stock at a huge discount. I’m naming names. Capital Region Medical Center and Dr. Douglas Boudreau. If they want to sue me, I WELCOME it, because then I could have a jury hear my case. Criminally criminal in giving it despite Patti White’s congressional testimony that the huge new numbers of autistic kindergartners in Missouri in 1996 were totally owing to their encephalitic reactions to the hep-B given at birth starting in 1991.

          • Bored Now

            cia, you really can write volumes when you want to. However I’d rather like to hear what specifically makes your opinions better than nothing.

            So far your list is:

            – You have spent thousands of hours reading books however there was either no concern to the quality of the information in them or you didn’t mention how you decided which books contained the highest quality information. So you could have easily been studying only the lowest quality information. Right? Which would likely lead you in the wrong direction. Right?
            – You do not directly benefit from vaccine sales — congratulations you’re just like everyone else here.
            – You think you know more than most people — no offense but this describes an awful lot of people on the internet.
            – You support your statements with opinions from experts, articles, and stories from people but it seems that because of the wide variety of opinion expressed from these sources it doesn’t seem likely that you are going to have a better than average opinion here. So your opinion could be in the wrong direction. Right?

            Have I missed anything? I think you can understand why these don’t necessarily make your opinions useful. Is there anything else?

          • FallsAngel

            we first started to see large numbers of newborns scream constantly and
            inconsolably for hours on end, and we first started to see autism all
            around us.

            Who’s this “we”, cia. I worked in pediatrics through all those years, and “we” saw no such thing.

          • I’ve said this before, but I saw nonstop screaming with my second kid–until we gave him a bottle of formula and I stopped trying to shove a (bleeding) boob in his mouth. This was all on the first day of life, though.

          • Roadstergal

            Cia Parker’s story sounds so much like every story I’ve heard on this site of delayed milk production – screaming, refusing the boob, and losing weight in the first week. 🙁 🙁 Her poor kid, on so many levels.

          • Agreed. We cannot know what really happened, since our information consists only of what Cia tells us, but it sure sounds like much of this distress was caused by insufficient intake. Whether this episode has aught to do with the child’s language difficulties I cannot say.

          • Heidi

            The one consistent thing about Cia Parker’s story is you’ll always find an inconsistency from what she’s said before. I keep reading she already knew the Hep B vaccine caused autism so she told her doctor she refused it for her daughter. Then we read she total had no idea about this fake encephalitis syndrome that causes autism she pulled either out of her butt or one of her quacky books so totally thought it was normal for her baby to cry inconsolably for 16 hours a day and refuse to nurse. Okay, so she claims the vaccine was given against her knowledge. I am not sure I can believe that, but seriously, even if she didn’t think her daughter was given the Hep B vaccine, I still don’t understand why she didn’t seek medical care. If one doctor seems too dismissive, what’s to stop her from seeking a second opinion? Or going to the ER? I generally trust the medical establishment and despite an Ask-A-Nurse telling me to take a Zyrtec for a serious allergic reaction to sulfa and that I didn’t need medical care, I decided she didn’t comprehend everything I was telling her or I left out some relevant information or maybe she was doling out bad advice but whatever the case, I sought ER treatment. With my child, I do not hesitate as much as I do with myself. I am supposed to believe someone like Cia would have followed her doctor’s supposed advice that everything was absolutely fine?? The person who goes against doctors’ advice all the time? Who was already going against established medical advice by refusing the Hep B vaccine? Who was already giving credence to anti-vaxx conspiracy theories? The person who won’t protect her dog against heartworms despite knowing she lives in an area where heartworms are everywhere?

            Then she pulls this 1 out of 36 children is autistic which can’t actually be found from a valid website; it seems to be more like 1 in 88. But she also claims high functioning, verbal individuals with autism do not count as actually having autism. I’ve read that approximately 25% of those with autism are non-verbal. So I’m guessing the reality is something more like 1 in 352 meet Cia’s diagnosis as really having autism. Her daughter is sometimes portrayed as being verbal and able to call Cia on the phone and beg to be taken home or tell the doctor all about mercury in vaccines or her words were erased forever and her life will never be worth living.

            Cia also claims to have MS, and that I do generally believe. But supposedly it has zapped her of all energy and she can’t function. Except somewhere, she manages to read and promote dozens of bullshit books, comments dozens of times a day on this blog alone (and her average comment is a few dozen sentences). She is also on chelation therapy to rid herself of the mercury she believes is the root of her MS but I haven’t seen that she’s claimed her MS is getting better. One would think you’d gradually get better with this miracle treatment, but I guess after seven years, it just magically dissipates.

            And I’m not sure how Cia knows her daughter was given the Hep B vaccine. That story changes from they have no record of it, to she waited too long to take it to court, to hospitals can do whatever they want to your baby without your knowledge or consent. I kind of believe Cia’s daughter never got the vaccine.

          • Box of Salt

            ciaparker, you view everything from the point of view of vaccine damage. This is by definition biased.

            I am not dishonest for pointing that out.

          • Bored Now

            We don’t need doctors to mediate for us between our experience and reality

            You might need a statistician or two. 🙂

          • kilda

            again, just one more time for the sake of stating the truth, the vaccine did not erase your daughter’s language. She didn’t have language. She was a 4 year old whose only “language” was two almost identical grunting sounds. The fact that she was diagnosed with autism 2 months later doesn’t mean the vaccine made her autistic. It means that someone finally got around to diagnosing her with the autism that she quite obviously already had. Because otherwise she’d have had actual words at age 4, not grunts, and way more than 2 words. She didn’t become autistic 2 months after that shot. She just got *finally* diagnosed.

          • Jack Sprat

            Bored Now is now a member of a marginally undistinguished club. Cheers to Bored Now

          • Who?

            So where did the drugs you had in hospital for your MS come from, if not the pharma industry?

            Since you claim to be not a client in any way.

          • Roadstergal

            Ah, but she doesn’t take disease-modifying treatment for her MS, only steroids for symptomatic treatment. Which… aren’t made by pharmaceutical companies, somehow?

            Nobody tell her that a lot of pharma companies have hopped onto the gravy train of manufacturing supplements…

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            So you read books by people who make money by selling books to people like you. That does not make you an expert. The books you read were by people with one intent: to make money. In writing those books, they will often reference scientific studies, but those are either old, poorly done, or do not reach the conclusions that the book authors claim. Or else they are in vitro or animal studies, which do not always translate to human studies. These authors know that people, like you, will latch onto the studies, without actually reading the original papers themselves, and without the ability to critique the papers even if they read them.

            My question for you: why are the tiny majority of studies that support your view valid, and the vast majority of the scientific literature out there that contracts your view, invalid? Of course, there are good studies and bad studies, but when the overwhelming evidence does not support your view, how can you claim that scientific studies support your position? Surely the vast majority of researchers, health professionals, research institutes, public health agencies, publishing houses, and graduate students aren’t all pharma shills? Even pharmaceutical companies don’t make enough to pay off almost every single person who would need to be involved in this conspiracy.

          • ciaparker2

            I told you what happened. And it does not fit into your preconceived notions of reality. My daughter suffered horribly for years. The doctor did nothing and did not care. I put her on the diet I had read about and it healed her. No more sobbing from pain and crying for me to get her at school, no more backed up toilets, no more constipation. This is called reality.

            The pharma companies are running scared. They have to deny that their products cause autism and autoimmune disease, including bowel disease. They have billions of dollars to fund studies that will come up with the desired results, known as “pharma-funded.”

            I don’t think our pediatrician was paid by a pharma company, but I think what happened to my daughter was outside what she was taught in med school, and she preferred to stay on safe ground rather than become curious and venture out into today’s reality. Because it would have led her to renounce Pharma Reality if she were honest.

            It is beyond my view. I saw a survey of autism parents several years ago, rating about a hundred different therapies, supplements, vitamins, etc., as to whether they had improved their children’s condition. I looked at it looking for the items which had gotten over 70% helped, to see what might help my daughter (and, again, we have to help each other, all doctors are allowed to say is, Well, ABA therapy is the only one with proven results and the only one we can recommend). The only two remedies which got over 70% were mercury chelation therapy and the gluten-free, casein-free, or Paleo/grain-free diets.

            So we have you and your colleagues saying Well, our pharma-funded study found that the diet did not help at all, while hundreds of independent studies show that it DID, and MIlLIONS of people, both autists and typical people with bowel disease, have learned that the diets HEAL their condition. And so that’s why there are literally hundreds of websites devoted to some form of the gluten-free diet. People have learned that they work, and that the medical profession really, really doesn’t care.

          • momofone

            You just said your daughter was normal for years. You are completely unreliable, and I expect that your daughter pays the price daily for your ignorance and your arrogance.

          • ciaparker2

            We were talking about bowel disease. She had normal bowel function until the high fever the summer she was seven. She was autistic from the beginning, since she suffered vaccine encephalitis from days four to eight after birth, which did severe brain damage. She was delayed but saying two words by 18 months old: both were erased forever as soon as she got the DTaP booster at that time, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later.
            What vultures you are. How in the world did they manage to find this large a pack of vicious hyenas?

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, you started waving a large piece of rotting meat about.

            Except you’re the one eating it while we’re all trying to tell you how bad it smells.

          • Heidi

            How were her words lost forever when you were claiming your daughter called you from school and begged you to take her home?

          • Claire Secrist

            You’re using your daughter as a tool to forward a conspiracy theory agenda, exposing her medical history to the entire world, and describing people like her as useless and subhuman. I promise you that vultures and hyenas are exponentially better parents than you are, in light of these facts.

          • rosewater1

            YOU came here. YOU opened an account. YOU posted your story. No one hacked into your life and spread your information.

            When you post anything on the internet you give up ownership. People can-and do-say what they like.

            It’s very simple, Cia. If you don’t like what we have to say-and you clearly don’t-GO AWAY.

            If you want to be an anti-vax advocate, go somewhere else. Start your own blog. Clearly you aren’t getting what you want from people here.

            Just as we have no power to tone police your comments, you don’t get to do that for us. You give your opinion. We give ours.

            At least that’s how it works until Lord High Cheeto Head decides we don’t get to do that anymore…but that’s a different topic altogether.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Cia, how did -you- find us? Know what? Mom always avoided the snakes at the zoo because they creeped her out, so we went to look at the nice elephants, bison, and zebras. Go find a nice scrapbooking blog.

          • kilda

            yes, we’re the ones who reject anything that doesn’t fit into our preconceived notion of reality. Sigh.

          • Bored Now

            So we have you and your colleagues saying Well, our pharma-funded study found that the diet did not help at all, while hundreds of independent studies show that it DID, and MIlLIONS of people

            How do you know that the reality isn’t that the strong evidence is what is pointing against the diet and it’s the weak evidence (small studies, animal models, cite papers, personal testimonies) which are pointing away from it.

            Do you really not think it’s possible or even expected for millions of people to be wrong about their experiences?

          • Bored Now

            I have spent thousands of hours studying many books on vaccines

            Aren’t there opinions which are diametrically opposed championed by various books? How do you know you are reading the correct books? Isn’t it reasonable that someone can, in this case spend a lot of time reading the wrong books and therefore have a worthless opinion?

            I know a lot more about these issues than most people

            Isn’t this is only based on the principle that you believe yourself to be right and everyone opposed to you is wrong?

            , and I am not a client of the pharma industry in any way, so I am unbiased.

            Can’t someone be exceptionally biased and not a client of the pharma industry or vice versa?

            I back up everything I say with outside sources

            You haven’t presented a single source supporting your claim that you’ve read the correct books, studies, and have the capacity to properly interpret them. Doesn’t make sense that you could cite dozens of sources but if you are reading the wrong papers and books (or simply reading them incorrectly) and still have an opinion that is worthless?

            statements of physicians or scientists

            Again aren’t there physicians or scientists with diametrically opposed views on this? How are you ensuring you are reading the right people?

            Again, I don’t care a single thing about whether you approve or agree with anything I say.

            …and again why do you keep coming back to this point? Isn’t it entirely irrelevant. Even if every person on the planet loved your ideas. Couldn’t you still be wrong? Couldn’t everyone in the world hate your ideas and you still be right?

            Since all you want to do is bully me, I am blocking you.

            Aren’t you the one demanding that if people don’t accept your opinions — entirely without reason as to why you are someone to be listened to — you will call them criminals or other names or just block them?

            That kind of sounds like you’re the bully here.

          • Nick Sanders

            She’s not a client of the pharma industry, except for all the medicines she buys.

          • Roadstergal

            Cia Parker most definitely _is_ doing work to benefit the pharmaceutical industry.

            My own company alone makes treatments for cervical cancer and liver cancer, both of which are far more prevalent in the absence of HPV and HepB vaccination. We have an influenza pipeline, as well. We make a lot of money off of people convinced not to vaccinate by Cia Parker!

            If she’s not getting paid, she’s working for free for Big Pharma.

            Me, I’d be happy if we lost our market for treatment of the downstream effects of VPDs. We have other things to work on that aren’t getting adequately addressed at the moment.

          • shay simmons

            Since all you want to do is disagree with bully me, I am blocking you.

            FTFY.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m curious who these alleged people are. Apart from Sabelmouse, I see very few people ever chiming in to support you or even upvote your posts.

          • Box of Salt

            Nick, on this site there’s Nonsheep, who chimes in to post along the sames lines as cia’s viewpoint, and we had someone named Judith for a few days, too.

          • Jack Sprat

            What happened to ilon (?) or SuzNorken? Can’t say I miss them

          • Roadstergal

            Who was that guy from Switzerland who said that the aluminum in vaccines causes Alzheimer’s, and that Switzerland’s low uptake of MMR was therefore a great thing, even when we pointed out to him that Switzerland has the highest Alzheimer’s rates in western Europe?

          • Jack Sprat

            Geez, I have no clue. Don’t you sciency peeps keep track of those things?

          • swbarnes2

            His handle at the time was Barzini, or something like that.

          • Roadstergal

            That was it! The Amazing Barzini!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            But Nonsheep hilariously thought that Cia is pro-vax, and had a go at her.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Unless you are a licensed health professional, you shouldn’t be recommending anything.

            Modern vaccines are not dangerous. Yes, vaccine reactions do occur, but they are extremely rare.

            In my province, in 2016, there were 19 serious events post-vaccine reported, which means 2 serious effects for every 1 million vaccine doses administered. That’s very rare. And nowhere near the prevalence that you claim!

          • ciaparker2

            And why is that? I told you, our pediatrician was against my putting my daughter on the GFCF diet. I asked her what to do about the severe chronic constipation, and she said everyone was different, and some people were just constipated all the time. My daughter was normal until a summer flu in 2007: after that she had bowel disease. A homeopath told me that the high fever had pulled stored vaccine mercury from her bones, initiating the syndrome. But allopathic physicians don’t care anything at all about the suffering of those who don’t fit into their accepted categories or what they were taught in med school. My daughter would call me sobbing from school to come get her, she was in such pain from the unalleviated constipation. Our toilets were always backed up and would overflow onto the floor. She would only “go” once or twice a week, and then the bowel movements were the size of tennis balls, extremely painful to pass and painful when they didn’t pass. And the doctor didn’t care, had nothing to recommend.

            Two days into the GFCF diet, as in the case of millions of other autistic children, she was cured. I told the doctor and she was surprised, but otherwise not interested. So much for ministering to and healing the sick.

            High-fiber, Metamucil, extra water, raw fruits and vegetables, did nothing at all. Yeah, taking a LOT of Miralax etc. alleviated the symptoms, but not the underlying condition. The diet DOES.
            So you’re yet another medical professional who doesn’t care about the sick if they don’t fit into your preconceived notions. Just like all those who react severely to vaccines with autism, ADHD, learning disorders, seizures, asthma, allegies, peanut allergy, paralysis, bowel disease, diabetes, and every autoimmune disease there IS just don’t fit into your preconceived category of VACCINE GOOD, NO HURT ANYONE.

            You’re paying no attention. At this time over half of American children have suffered disabling reactions to vaccines. One in 36 now has autism, up from three in 10,000 in 1987 and 0 in 1900. And so increasing numbers of parents are turning away from received dogma and allopathic physicians, because you’re killing and maiming millions of people and don’t care.

          • Nick Sanders

            My daughter was normal until a summer flu in 2007

            The daughter who allegedly lost her, by your own admission, extremely limited vocabulary after a pediatric vaccine, had to be put in speech therapy, and didn’t talk again for years?

            A homeopath told me that the high fever had pulled stored vaccine mercury from her bones, initiating the syndrome.

            So a professional liar made up a whole bunch of nonsense, and that convinced you to abandon all reason and evidence?

            My daughter would call me sobbing from school to come get her,

            Your non-verbal, homeschooled daughter?

          • Who?

            That little thought experiment is well beyond cia’s ability. It requires her to assume she has made an error of judgment, something she cannot envisage.

        • Roadstergal

          Cia Parker, with all of your biochemistry knowledge, how is it that you didn’t know that formaldehyde is a natural product of metabolism, present in all of us at far greater concentrations than in vaccines? With all of your claimed knowledge about all things medical, how is it that you don’t know the difference between a symptom and a disease?

        • StephanieJR

          I am typing with one hand, because the other is preoccupied with petting my bunny. My sweet, snuggly bunny, whom gives me lots of kisses and cuddles everyday, and falls asleep in my arms, dreaming happy dreams, regularly. She is a spoilt brat of a bun, content and bright. She is one of the best things in my life. I love her. And I will always protect her. That includes protecting her, and other rabbits, from people like you.

          You can insult me all you like. I can take it. But how dare you talk about my rabbit like I’m harming her. How dare you talk about her as if I don’t try to do my best by her, as if I have not spent sleepless nights and many tears on her, worrying about her health. How dare you insult us by insinuating that I will damage her when I would do almost anything to keep her as healthy as I can as long as I can. So long as she has a decent quality of life, I will keep her.

          Amy is four. I hope she lives to twelve, maybe even longer. She will be an old rabbit at some point, perhaps deaf and/or blind, with arthritis or a stroke. Do you really think that by that point, I will have stopped loving her? That disability makes her unworthy of love? My gran is becoming disabled by her health problems; do I stop loving her because of that?

          I will never feel guilty for vaccinating her. I would feel far more guilty if she caught myxomatosis or RVHD1/2 if I had the chance to protect her and didn’t take it. I will always have rabbits, and I will always vaccinate them. It’s the right thing to do.

          You know nothing. You don’t know us, you don’t know Amy. You don’t know any of the things she likes to do. You don’t know how a disability would affect her. Different degrees of disabilities affect different rabbits. Some can cope better than others, true. I’m probably going to end up with special needs rabbits in future, from age, hopefully, if nothing else. I will love them, protect them, and advocate for them.

          Your spreading lies about vaccines, autism, and other assorted ‘damages’ is disgusting. And extremely dangerous. You risk millions of lives, not just from not vaccinating children, but from not vaccinating your animals against rabies, perhaps the most dangerous and terrifying disease there is. You deny vaccinations for rabbits, too, which is yet another horrible thing (on top of the ablism, racism, eugenics, and defense of child abusers); getting the correct information to properly care for rabbits out there is hard enough without your lies.

          I could spend an entire evening doing my best to tear you down. But I have a soft, fuzzy, cuddly bunny in my arms, full of love. I won’t stop dispelling and deconstructing your lies, since you have nothing better to do with your time than being a horrible fuckface, but mine is better spent caring for the ones I love.

          • ciaparker2

            I have never said or thought that disability makes one unworthy of love. I put up a link to a forum where rabbit owners were grieving over their rabbits having severe reactions to the myxomatosis vaccine. I’m saying that you need to research both the disease in your particular area and the vaccine: its effectiveness and its dangers, before getting any vaccine. If you put pleasing your vet over your rabbit’s welfare, I think that shows lack of love for your rabbit.

            My vet said that there were a lot of parvo cases here, but in the poor area of town. She said there are a lot of cases of heartworm disease. I accepted two parvo vaccines of the type recommended by Dr. Jean Dodds and have not so far accepted heartworm medication for my dog. I have gotten her blood tested twice to see if she had heartworms. I think that is the safer course under our circumstances. I may or may not have made the right decision about the parvo vaccine. I may or may not have made the right decision about the heartworm medication. So far she hasn’t gotten parvo or heartworms.

            I don’t know what your circumstances are. It sounds as though yours were a house rabbit, which I think is the only appropriate choice for a pet you love. How often do possibly myxo-carrying mosquitoes get into your home and bite people and pets? If they do so often, and if myxo is a serious problem among pet rabbits in your area, I’d say the vaccine was probably justified. But if you live in a home in which mosquitoes are rare to absent, and if myxo isn’t a big problem in pet rabbits in your community, I’d say that the vaccine would be more risk than benefit.
            It is not a matter of My vet says to get these vaccines, so that’s what I”m going to do, no need to research it. There are millions of parents who regret having done this.

          • Who?

            I wonder what your doctors and professional advisers think of being named in your ranting and raving posts. Great for their professional reputations.

            And so long as it’s only the poor folk whose pets are dying, it’s no biggie, amiright?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You were told that you had misinterpreted the discussions on that rabbit forum by StephanieJR who has been a member for years and years, so at this point, by repeating what you said before, you are blatantly lying.

          • StephanieJR

            But that’s the crux of it, isn’t it? To you, disabled/differently abled people are not actual people. Your daughter wasn’t the one you wanted. Either through her genes, difficult birth, starvation, or all three, but in no way vaccines, your child was disabled. Most people don’t want a disabled child. Fine; I will never be in that position, so I won’t judge them for their initial responses, but most people get over it. They help their child and do their best to change the world for them.

            You never did. You decided that your own child was so abhorrent, that since she was very much not what you wanted, that because you didn’t deserve this, someone did this to her. Someone damaged her, that it wasn’t genetics or chance or whatever; it was on purpose. So you pull up this great conspiracy, that there must be a reason behind it. That millions of babies are being damaged for profit. And that you are the sole voice of reason, the whistleblower, the champion. You crusade so valiantly, fighting against your enemies.

            But it’s all lies, Cia. You have been told repeatedly all the ways in which you are wrong; an inconceivable fact, I know. There is no great conspiracy. VPDs are dangerous. Vaccines save lives. These are true. But you don’t believe it; you double down, spouting nonsense, screaming about shills, about killing babies. You make a spectacle of yourself, a shrieking shrew, chattering bullshit and flinging accusations all over the place.

            All because you hate your daughter. That’s the heart of it; she’s autistic, so she must be disabled; she’s disabled, so she must be worth less. She must be disgusting, subhuman, nothing. Your contempt for the disabled come through with every vitriolic word; your bigotry shines a light on your true feelings. I’d be impressed if I wasn’t horrified.

            You’re still not listening to me – I’ve told you that I’m a member of that forum more than once. That that forum post only shows ONE rabbit dying, and not even necessarily because of a vaccine reaction. No one else reported their rabbit having that adverse of a reaction. The only panic was to get the sick rabbits back to the vet quickly enough for treatment; rabbits are so fragile, it is far better to be safe than sorry with them. I have never heard of another death in my years there. I have heard of more deaths from preventable diseases.

            Thank you for implying that I’m too stupid to think for myself and blindly follow my vet’s advice – that’s really telling. I first knew about myxomatosis from reading ‘Watership Down’, actually, called the ‘White Blindness’ by the characters, spoken in horrified words and visceral images, which certainly makes an impression. Because of my deep interest in rabbits, I read up on it, about the skin lesions and tumours; the suffering and the painful death. How it was deliberately introduced to Australia and France to exterminate wild rabbits. Long before I ever talked to a vet, I knew how dangerous myxomatosis was, and that if I wanted a rabbit, I would protect them from it. The vaccine would not cause damage. The disease, which mostly comes from all kinds of biting insects, would almost certainly cause death.

            And let’s not get started on rabbit viral haemorrhage disease, because as much as I’d love to see you try and be an ‘expert’ on that, my bunny needs to go back for her supper, and you’ve bored me enough for one evening.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I would put it slightly differently: I’d say that the vast majority of parents would prefer that that their child didn’t ever have to cope with a disability, because it can be tough; but if their child did have a disability, the parents would pull out all the stops to mitigate the worst effects. Pretty much the way you feel about your gorgeous rabbit. It’s because we put the child (and you put your rabbit) uppermost in our thoughts, not the disability.

            In other words, most parents would say “I don’t want my child to be disabled”, thinking only of the child, whereas people who think like Cia think only of themselves when they say “I don’t want a disabled child.” as if kids are a commodity.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Aye. We discussed this, my husband and I, since we couldn’t be 100% sure there wasn’t a genetic component, plus I’m a bit older so my children run a higher risk of things like Down’s. We -know- how life can be more complicated because of disability and we definitely hoped our child(ren) wouldn’t be affected by any, but if they were, oh well, we’ll figure it out together.

          • StephanieJR

            Thank you for rephrasing that; I was a little rushed and not too sure of the exact way to put it, but you’ve covered my point exactly. Nobody wants their child (or pet) to suffer, so they change the world, not their child; well, at least they should.

            Most people daydream what their future will be like; their future spouse, future child. You don’t think that your kid will be different from your imagination. You raised them to be like you, after all. You don’t really account for how different this person you created can be from you. You don’t think they’ll be born/become disabled, or be born LGBT, or just plain be not you. Some parents tend to put their imaginary child in front of their real child.

            Growing up, I always heard ‘be yourself’ or ‘different is good/special’ a lot as a kid, and now I’m beginning to think we need something to tell some parents. ‘It’s okay that your kid won’t be you’ or something.

          • Cat

            Can’t believe I’m venturing onto the dreaded vaccine thread, but I was touched by your comment. Several of my friends and family work or have worked with kids with SEN. From what they’ve told me, all of the parents that they come into contact with have some degree of grief for the things that their kids probably won’t have in life, but the parents who have managed to adjust their goals and are dedicated to helping their kids be the happiest, most fulfilled possible versions of themselves are a joy to work alongside. At the other end of the scale, some parents just get stuck at the stage of “I have three post-graduate degrees, how can I possibly have a child who isn’t smart like me?” , and it’s painful/heartbreaking to watch because they either get hung up on a series of weird dietary fixes and natural remedies which they think will be a complete “cure”, or they wind up losing it with the teacher at parents’ evening because if the silly bitch would only get her teaching right, their son will be back in mainstream in a year and can go to university and be a doctor after all.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Stupid question, while agreeing at large with your comment: what’s SEN?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Special Educational Needs.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Thanks!

          • Cat

            PS Please keep up the Watership Down references – it’s my favourite book!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            “Nobody wants their child (or pet) to suffer, so they change the world, not their child; well, at least they should.”

            See, this is why I find cia’s comments so abhorrent. She does want her child to suffer, presumably because of a need to punish the poor girl for not being the child she had planned for. Then she attempts to rationalise her cruelty by inventing a scenario under which protecting her daughter would be bad, and passes the blame for her daughter’s suffering onto an imaginary nefarious plot by other people. That way cia gets to be nasty, but it’s always someone else’s fault.

            The fact that she cannot keep up the pretence that she is the real victim – she can’t keep herself from expressing her loathing for people she considers to be sub-human – is a dead giveaway that she’s a sociopath.

          • Roadstergal

            Every so often, I notice another bit of slime that Cia has posted that I missed the first time around.

            “My vet said that there were a lot of parvo cases here, but in the poor area of town. ”

            Only those dirty poors get diseases, eh?

          • kilda

            yes, only poor dogs get diseases. they should just get jobs.

          • FallsAngel

            Just like only poor people die from VPDs.

          • kilda

            you know that your classism has gotten toxic when it extends to dogs.

          • Heidi

            I missed the poor part of town, too. She’s awful.

          • FallsAngel

            Ditto; ditto.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            I think Cia needs to work for several months, or longer, in a vet practice, to truly understand what vaccine-preventable illnesses look like in animals. I always wanted to be a vet. Then I worked one summer in a veterinary practice. Seeing animals die of vaccine-preventable illnesses, in pain and suffering, not always being properly cared for by their owners, made me think twice about being a vet. Seeing animals being euthanized, because their owner could not afford to treat them, convinced me that I couldn’t be a vet. Seeing a dog die of parvovirus, when there is a perfectly good vaccine out there for it? Heartbreaking. Seeing an owner having to make the decision to put their beloved cat to sleep due to severe heart worm that can’t be treated in cats, but only prevented? Heartbreaking as well. After that summer, I went into dietetics.

        • Claire Secrist

          I wish I reminded someone of a rabbit owner. Rabbit people are the best.

          • StephanieJR

            Mostly because we’ve been brainwashed into serving the bunnies. They are soft and cute and demanding!

        • Helen

          Vaccines, oddly enough, do not damage millions of people and rob them of all the various things you claim that they do. Vaccines merely inspire the body to do something it does naturally, which is to make antibodies against things. Our bodies make antibodies against so many, many different things, including all sorts of air-borne pollen and proteins shed by the animals and plants around us. And all the various bacteria and viruses we encounter.

          An allergic reaction is an _abnormal_ reaction to something. We all have normal reactions to these things.

          If a vaccine — which is specific to some very dangerous and damaging bacteria and viruses — could cause autism, then autism is first caused by flowering plants and pets in the home, and the very food we eat. Autism comes in with our very first breath, and is triggered in every breath we take until we die. Autism comes with our food and our water. But since this is not true, it cannot be true that vaccines cause autism.

          All vaccines do is encourage our bodies to make antibodies against a disease they haven’t met yet. And the amount of antigen in each vaccine is thousands of times less than what you breathe in when you walk beneath a flowering tree.

          • ciaparker2

            It IS odd, isn’t it? Allegedly there are many children now who, if they even breathe in a particle of peanut dust, die. Now how could that POSSIBLY be? My daughter and I consume peanut butter all the time with no ill effects. I think they’re lying about having a peanut allergy. And all those wimps who SAY they are allergic to eggs, berries, fish, chocolate, etc., etc., one might almost say that there are SOME attention-seeking liars who claim allergy to every single substance in the world. Come now. It’s never happened to us, so couldn’t possibly have happened to them.
            Autism comes with vaccines, when the vaccine’s antigenic ingredients (and it doesn’t have any other kind), alarm the immune system when they suddenly appear in the blood having somehow snuck past the first-defense system, the natural filters and specialized immune system bodies in the respiratory and alimentary tract, starting in the mouth and nose. They would normally filter out most pathogens and send an early alarm so the rest of the immune system can prepare to receive the threat. But when they’re injected straight into the body, the entire immune system goes into a tizzy, initiating what are usually last-ditch defenses attempting to save a life. Massive amounts of white blood cells are released. Inflammation is always the first response of the immune system to a threat, and so, after a vaccine, many areas become inflamed, including the brain (encephalitis) and the gut (bowel disease). The capillary beds become blocked by the massive numbers of white blood cells, and blood flow is blocked, causing these areas to become oxygen-deprived. And leakage of blood into the brain. Resulting in stroke-like damage to the brain (autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, and learning disorders).
            The immune system is sensitized to any or many of the vaccine ingredients, so that when it sees any of these substances again, or anything resembling them, it goes on the attack, even though it is attacking its own systems, severe injuring or even killing its own host. Resulting in asthma, allergies, diabetes, paralysis, bowel disease, PANDAS, or any one of myriad other autoimmune diseases. With the release of every vaccine, scientists discover many new autoimmune diseases, only developed in reaction to weird ingredients in the new vaccines.
            I urge the sincere reader to read Dr. Richard Moskowitz’ new book Vaccination. It is excellent, and goes into great detail on all these subjects, and also includes descriptions of what happened to many of his own patients as a result of their vaccinations. Horrible consequences, heart-breaking. This is what vaccines often do. Any vaccine you take, you are literally risking your life, health, and mind. A very big risk, not inconsequential as shills like to say. Read it and make up your own mind.

          • Roadstergal

            “Antigenic ingredients.”

            Sporfle.

            Someone who isn’t blocked ask Cia to briefly say, in her own words, what an antigen is.

          • Helen

            I think that author pulled all that shit out of his ass and fed it to you. No, that’s not how it goes. Not one whit.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I don’t know if I’m one of the blocked commenters but here goes…

            What do you think an antigen is, Cia?

            Edited to add: In your own words, please – not a copy-and-paste from somewhere on the internet.

          • StephanieJR

            Wait, people with allergies are attention seekers now? I thought it was because of the vaccines?

          • ciaparker2

            Sarcasm goes right over your head, doesn’t it?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m astonished. Virtually every sentence in that comment is a lie. However did you manage that?!

            You’ve said that people should get diseases to strengthen their immune system. I got the diseases, because there wasn’t a vaccine.

            Guess what?

            I have autoimmune disorders, allergies and asthma. Why? Because too ‘strong’ (hyper-reactive) an immune system causes immune-related disorders.

            If you were right, no-one over sixty would have any of those disorders you blame on vaccines – yet we have them in the same proportions, or worse, than younger people.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD
    • Jack Sprat

      I just read this a few hours ago, horrible.

    • Claire Secrist

      That child deserved better.

    • Empress of the Iguana People

      Rabies? oh god, that poor kid.

    • FallsAngel

      I’ve seen this too, thankfully, not with rabies, but with other vaccines. Parent wants to skip vaccine because child is afraid of shots.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        My step mother saw it with tetanus. Don’t know if the kid lived or died. Actually, I think it was outright vaccine refusal, not hesitancy because of fear of shots but the kid paid the price.

    • ciaparker2

      Now you should also put up the photos of the thousands of babies killed by vaccines.

      • Jack Sprat

        The BS asymmetry:
        “The amount of energy required to refute BS is an order of magnitude larger than to produce it.”

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          We need a handy river to re-route, but I have a feeling that there isn’t one large enough on the whole planet.

      • Claire Secrist

        Stop it, you fucking ghoul. This child will die in agony because he didn’t get a round of vaccines.

      • Claire Secrist

        The fact that you can look at that child’s face and keep up your bullshit, just reinforces that you truly are a psychopath and a pathological narcissist.

      • Claire Secrist

        Please come explain why this kid’s death is acceptable to you because he’s not an Alaskan trapper.

        • Roadstergal

          Original antigenic sin, of course. That’s when you make antibodies to an apple.

          • Nick Sanders

            Only if you’re Christian; for Jews, it’s making antibodies to figs.

      • namaste

        Oh for christ’s sake, you’re the one who made the claim. If you’re such a fucking expert, YOU find them and put them up. A lazy response such as nwmt or “It’s tuteurs job to provide balance” shall be taken to mean “I can’t, because they are non-existant and I don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground.” Happy hunting!

        • Jack Sprat

          BOOM!

      • MaineJen

        You first, cia.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          She won’t, of course; because she’d be hard-pressed to find even one.

          • Acleron

            But, but, there are all her relatives, all her friends, all her neighbours and just about everybody she’s met who have suffered from vaccination. Are you saying these aren’t real?

      • MaineJen

        And also, fuck off. Seriously. If you can look at the photo of that child and still insist “But the vaccines!!!1!” you really are too gone for help. You have MS, your daughter has the NRXN-1 gene deletion, none of it is the fault of vaccines, you are a loon, the end. I’ve had it up to here with this shit.

        • Who?

          I know, right-she’s so sad and sorry about her daughter, so sad and sorry for herself, but faced with someone who has had exactly what she would ‘recommend’ (her word) she has nothing. Not a word of sympathy or compassion.

          • Box of Salt

            Who?
            The amount of cognitive dissonance and guilt that ciaparker must deal with on a daily basis must be overwhelming. If her misleading words weren’t so dangerous to others who might take her seriously, I’d feel really sorry for her.

          • Who?

            I feel the same way. Her head cannot be a happy or comfortable space. And one can only imagine the life she is giving her daughter.

            But lots of people deal with what she does, and much, much more, without spreading dangerous lies with an air of authority and confidence.

          • Nick Sanders

            Given her sudden rampage of shouting about vile murderers and blocking people, I’ve genuinely wondered if she’s in the midst of some mental health crisis that she’s refusing to medicate.

        • namaste

          She clearly lives in the realm of “Alternative facts.”

      • The Vitaphone Queen

        This child contracted RABIES. RABIES!!! How dare you.

        • ciaparker2

          How dare YOU? One fact does not cancel out the other. Many people, both children and adults, have died in great pain from contagious disease. Many people, both children and adults, have been maimed for life and even killed by vaccines. Both are true. You want to use the first as a weapon and deny the second, because pharma $$$ is the most important factor in your calculations. Every person, every parent, must carefully research both sides for every individual vaccine and vaccine-preventable disease before making a decision on way or the other. Do you now promote giving every human being in the world the rabies vaccine once a year in order to try to prevent anyone’s ever dying of rabies again? Without ever counting the number maimed or killed by the vaccine itself? Or by the cumulative effect of the huge number routinely given both to children and adults if they are willing to accept them (or even if they aren’t, if pharma coercives are strong enough)?

          • momofone

            It must be exhausting, Cia, to maintain such a level of willful ignorance.

          • ciaparker2

            What must be exhausting is keeping up a happy face, concentrating on all those pharma dollars, while tossing babies into the furnace.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            What ‘pharma dollars’? How on Earth can you keep a straight face whilst accusing everyone who disagrees with you (at least 95% of the human race) of being paid by one industry and of ‘tossing babies into the furnace’? Listen to yourself. That comment is totally unhinged. What furnace? Whose babies?

            I bet you believed in the child sex ring being operated in the basement of a building which doesn’t have a basement.

          • Nick Sanders

            I could definitely use some shillbucks. I’m tired of living with my parents because I don’t make a living wage.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m so sorry. It’s really tough at the moment to get a job almost everywhere. No employer wants to pay more than the absolute minimum they can get away with, whilst their cronies in the home-letting business are equally greedy, asking rents that take almost all the meagre income people can get.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            Who is tossing BABIES into a FURNACE?!

          • FallsAngel

            Flagged and downvoted.

          • Jack Sprat

            As Cia spins madly out of control (and she can’t see this), can we just ignore her and perhaps she may move along? A long shot I know, however I don’t know if this has been tried.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I can understand how you feel, but I feel that it is important to show other people how unhinged people like her actually are, so they don’t fall for her lies. Every time I feel like giving up, I remember that there are new parents, and parents-to-be, out there who have heard the lies and are understandably nervous. By consistently pointing out the fallacies, the lying, the paranoia, the immorality and the total lack of evidence of the pro-disease child haters cult, whilst presenting easily-understood and supported evidence in favour of vaccines (which are probably the greatest single healthcare discovery so far), we are preventing a great deal of suffering and saving lives.

          • Jack Sprat

            I would hope that the nature of AT’s article when combined with her previous tripe, any sensible reader would have already established, for themselves, what a moronic loon Cia is. If you were to have a quick poke about the weeb, you will find more posts and blogs about her (psychological ailments) than by her.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Thank you for that information. I had no idea that she was so widely known; unlike her, I don’t go poking about trying to find dirt on other commenters, I just respond to the comment in front of me. I apologise if I trod on any toes. Well, I apologise anyway – sorry for making an unwarranted assumption.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            A long SHOT! *cymbal crash*

          • Nick Sanders

            See my earlier comments regarding what’s-his-name and itchy scabs.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            SHUT. UP.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s right. Try as hard as you can to silence those speaking for the vaccine-devastated, speaking to warn parents that the life they save may be their child’s.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            And YOU’RE trying to silence those speaking for this poor little RABIES-devastated boy.

          • Roadstergal

            Au contraire – the more Cia Parker talks, the more obvious it is that she’s the epitome of D-K rank ignorance.

          • Who?

            Oh yes, look how silenced you are-on a public forum, for free, ranting and raving like a lunatic, comparing vaccinating a child to shooting it on a dark night, and blocking people you don’t agree with.

            And not a word from the moderator about your wild accusations of child murder etc. Which is fine by me: the more spittle stained your ravings, the safer are the children of parents who think they might consider your ‘recommendations’.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Your questions show how wrong you are about how the whole vaccine thing works. If pharmaceutical companies all over the world were all in a conspiracy with one another instead of actually being in competition, I have little doubt that they would be pushing vaccines on everyone for diseases they are unlikely to encounter. But they don’t, do they? There are good reasons why every human being isn’t vaccinated against rabies, not the least of which is that many of us live in countries where rabies is already extinct.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Many children and adults have died in great pain due to vaccine-preventable diseases, if they did not receive the vaccine, or if they contracted the disease before vaccines were available. That part is true.

            However, the number of people actually injured by vaccines is tiny in comparison. Yes, some people do have negative reactions to vaccines. No, vaccines do not cause autism, MS, or any of the other diseases you have mentioned. There are rare cases of true vaccine reactions, however, that are more serious than just a sore arm or a bit of a fever. See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-vaccines-are-dangerous/ for a nice summary of the evidence that doesn’t require knowledge of how to critically analyze the scientific literature.

          • Acleron

            Scientific American is just another pharmaceutical journal except, of course, when a Brazilian editor sneaked in a prohomeopathy article, then it was a purveyor of Da Trooth.

          • ciaparker2

            More pharma industry sources? No, thank you. Read Dr. Richard Moskowitz’ Vaccination for a stunning overview of how often vaccines maim and kill in today’s world. Hot off the press.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            It must be very strange to live in your world, where you believe everyone is out to get you. You do realize the only health care professionals who says vaccines are harmful are those who make money by selling books, supplements, videos, and other merchandise to people like you? The rest of the scientific community is not part of some great, evil conspiracy. The fact that you believe so is astounding! Vaccines have saved far more lives than they have harmed.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, she doesn’t realize that, and she prevents herself from realizing that, because it would interfere with what she wants to believe.

          • Azuran

            But he’s also a Doctor, so he was educated by Pharma. Why then should we trust him? So was Andrew WAkefield BTW, What’s to say that the whole ‘vaccine cause autism’ thing isn’t a conspiracy by big pharma to sell more expensive vaccines and detox cures?

          • Mike Stevens

            …More sources from self-serving quacks who have written a book to sell entirely for personal profit and who will say anything to boost sales?
            No thank you.

          • FallsAngel

            F and D.

      • shay simmons

        Try finding any.

      • Mike Stevens

        It would take quite a long time to track down even a couple of dozen confirmed instances, Cia.
        Yet, in the 24 hours that have elapsed since you blocked me, 280 kids have died from measles, just one single vaccine-preventable disease.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      That poor lamb. Look at what he’s going through now. How is that easier for him than getting the vaccine that could have saved his life?

    • The Vitaphone Queen

      He’s so sweet!!! ❤️

    • Nick Sanders

      For those of you who haven’t heard yet, this poor boy has since died.

      https://nypost.com/2018/01/15/6-year-old-boy-dies-of-rabies-after-touching-bat/

      • FallsAngel

        How sad!

      • Mishimoo

        I have no decent words. It was preventable, it was a ridiculous mistake to make (putting a sick bat in a bucket and expecting a child to leave it alone), and my heart breaks for both Ryker and his family. The ‘if onlys’ are going to haunt them for the rest of their lives.

        • Claire Secrist

          That’s very kind hearted of you, but I find it hard to not be very pissed with his parents. They were given medical advice to get the shots, and they failed him, and he’s dead. I’ve had to make very grueling medical decisions for my kid, and she’s hated them, but she’ll live to tell the tale. They knowingly gambled with his life.

          • Mishimoo

            Oh, I’m furious with them, I just can’t phrase it more strongly than I did without a lot of swearing. I am agog at the sheer thoughtlessness of their actions, but I also feel very sorry for Ryker and any surviving siblings.

  • MaineJen

    Did anyone else listen to the podcast S-Town?

    I feel like we may be dealing with someone who has inadvertently poisoned themselves, and is suffering the consequent delusions.

  • The Vitaphone Queen

    Anyone besides me got major lulz out of Cia’s “GO, IMMUNE SYSTEM” speech in all caps?

    • MaineJen

      I get lulz every time cia opens her mouth

      • The Vitaphone Queen

        Well, duh!

    • Heidi

      I was singing it to the tune of “Go, Gadget, go.” Inspector Gadget was my favorite cartoon from 7 to 10.

      • MaineJen

        Go go Gadget T cell!!

      • Roadstergal

        That is now stuck in my head.

        • Heidi

          Hoo hoo!

    • Mike Stevens

      She’d really like to have written it in bold, but she can’t html.

  • Mike Stevens

    At this point, is anyone else wishing that Cia would take a dose of her chelation therapy for her “mercury poisoning”?

    • Roadstergal

      But she said yesterday that mercury-poisoned people don’t get cancer!

      • Heidi

        Well, I guess I’m off to eat my weight in swordfish and tuna!

        • Mike Stevens

          No need to eat your own body weight.
          Cia was “poisoned” by 225mcg ethylmercury in vaccines.
          You can get the same toxic effect from a mere 3 portions of blue fin tuna.

          • Heidi

            Between my yearly flu vaccine and getting sushi 3 or 4 times a year, I guess I could smoke a pack a day, visit the tanning bed and no worries if the US gets nuked, I won’t get cancer!

          • Roadstergal

            Not to mention that you get the much more pervasive and toxic methylmercury with fish. It must prevent cancer so much better!

        • joe

          Egads! But But what about the MERCURY

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Well, mercury poisoning would be a small price to pay for no cancer!!!!!

            Er…

            Perhaps not.

      • Mike Stevens

        Hah!
        Yes she did.
        Which is why she should be recommending everyone gets vaccinated with multidose flu vaccine …to prevent cancer.

    • shay simmons

      No, because I am thinking of the impact of these self-destructive episodes on other person in her household.

    • You’ve seen from her posts that she does poison herself with chelating agents, while avoiding drugs that might help her genuine medical condition. I feel sorry for her–yes, in spite of her abhorrent wish to kill off millions of children, and in spite of her contempt for people with differences or disabilities. (Not as sorry as I feel for her daughter, but still.) Imagine how awful it must be to build oneself such a prison of misery!

  • Roadstergal

    I’ve mentioned it before, but I managed to have a brief career as a sex worker without getting HPV or HepB (or anything else, for that matter). A little luck and a lot of condoms. :p And now my student loans are all paid off and I’m a respeddable woman again…

    But yeah, I laugh at moms who sniff that THEIR daughters are NEVER going to grow up to do that because they’re just BETTER. :p It beats flipping burgers and brewing coffee for making ends meet.

    • My only issue with it is that it’s illegal (in the US), and being illegal means being really vulnerable. If prostitution and other sex work was entirely legal, while I wouldn’t be thrilled if a hypothetical daughter of mine chose that career, it’s also not my life!

      • Roadstergal

        I agree with you on that – I know it’s a contentious issue, but illegality doesn’t help mitigate exploitation. 🙁

  • shay simmons

    (quickly changing the subject)…

  • attitude devant

    Gottaluvya SOBers who are dealing with Cia. I have had it up to here with not-too-bright people who consider themselves more educated than us poor sheeple. She’s not going to change. She knows EVERYTHING. You don’t. She is the SOB manifestation of Dunning-Kruger.

    • Who?

      And now she’s adding embellishments to the baby story-apparently she did supplement on the doctor’s instruction, but it didn’t help.

      If she wasn’t out peddling dangerous nonsense I’d feel sorry for her.

      Apparently she’s blocked me. Guess I must have been getting to her.

      • Acleron

        Being blocked by her has the advantage that you can correct her lies and ignorance without a vacuous stream of nonsense.

        • Jack Sprat

          Is that why Who?’s name is in gray, cuz he’s blocked?

          • Mishimoo

            No, Who? is a regular who hasn’t signed up for a Disqus account, so their name isn’t blue like those who have.

          • Jack Sprat

            thanks

          • Who?

            Which is why, I think, cia can’t block me. She could try ignoring me-as I helpfully suggested-but that seems to be beynd her.

          • shay simmons

            She is not exactly computer-savvy.

          • kfunk937

            Thank d_G for , not that cia could employ it. She does however inhabit it for long stretches of time.

            I’m still chuckling over her trying to “nail it down” because she can’t figure out comment threads.

          • Jack Sprat

            If there was one person that could read the manual…

          • Who?

            Savvy at all.

            It’s such a lovely intellectual exercise. She blocks people, to her, they don’t exist because she can’t see them. But they are still there, doing their thing. And when she can’t block, she struggles to resist looking, and responding.

            If proof was ever required that cia doesn’t care to learn anything new, her enthusiasm for blocking is the proof.

          • Acleron

            She went through a phase of issuing screenfuls of nonsense then immediately replying to herself with ‘Nail it down’. Apparently, she was under the delusion that unless she did her magic incantation her original text would disappear into the aether.

          • shay simmons

            And when her posts go missing, it’s never because Disqus has quirks — it’s because someone is censoring her.

          • Acleron

            No. If you block someone, it means you cannot see his/her comments. I would imagine the majority of fact based rationalists have been blocked by an antivaxxer at some time. Parker has said she has blocked me as well. I know one such in the homeopathy brigade who made a great deal of having banned someone but then foolishly showed a screen shot of her own computer to try and prove some point. Her browser tab showed she had logged in as a guest to monitor that person’s comments. Hilarity followed but they skins like rhinoceroses.

      • shay simmons

        Pointing out the discrepancies in her stories was so mean of you.

      • attitude devant

        yes indeed

    • Mishimoo

      Honestly, it’s for my own amusement. It has the fortunate side-effect of making me think about my own writing and how to strongly support my points (I have assessments due in a few weeks, and was struggling with writer’s block).

      • attitude devant

        AD here. This computer won’t let me log in

        I have to agree that reading Dr. Amy on these pages has made me much more skilled at supporting my positions.

      • Who?

        Is that similar to procrastination? I do it a lot, seems to help me to clear the mind and then work under some time pressure.

        • Mishimoo

          Exactly! In this case, it’s helping take my mind off a pending assessment and concentrate better on the other ones. I feel stuck because I like using the marker’s feedback to improve my work, so reading/commenting here is helping to prod my brain into concentrating elsewhere.

        • Mishimoo

          Update: I got a high Credit (72%) for the assessment I thought I’d fail because it wasn’t up to my usual standards! My husband caught gastro with an unrelenting headache + fever, middle kid got a less nasty version, and I had a mild version while I was writing an evaluative report, so I’m pretty damn happy with the mark.

          • Who?

            Well done! Great achievement, particularly in the circumstances. Nothing like getting a good result when you are under pressure.

            Sorry about the gut bug-there seems to be a bit around, I feel like what the Brits are now calling the Australian flu hasn’t quite finished with us yet.

            I’ve decided it is too hot for me to garden so am getting on with the new year clean and re-jig of the house, which is very satisfying. My crepe myrtles are looking stunning all of a sudden, so all my gardening efforts before Christmas are rewarding me now!

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks!! Oh, I love crepe myrtles. They’re so beautiful, I’m glad yours are putting on a good show. Decluttering and rearranging the house and working on the garden take up the bulk of my plans for uni break, so I’m looking forward to starting that after Australia Day.

          • Acleron

            Grrr to both of you, it is 11 am here and the freezing fog has finally evaporated leaving a damp cold day /moan

            Actually I’m glad someone is living in sunnier climes.

          • Mishimoo

            I’ll happily swap with you! It’s going to be ridiculously hot and humid over the weekend, thank goodness for air-conditioning.

          • Nick Sanders

            There’s ice on the roads and more freezing rain on the way, so I had to take the day off from work today. Oh woe is me…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            We had ice and snow, and I still went to work.

            Got home and pulled out the snowblower. Not because there was all that much snow (about an inch) but I got that dang snowblower and I’m going to use it!

            I’ve shoveled enough snow in my life.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s cool and foggy right now.

            It was cool and foggy yesterday.

            It was cool and foggy in August.

            It’s always cool and foggy.

          • Who?

            Cool and foggy sounds delightful, though not great in August when it is meant to be summer.

            Right this second the light in my heavily shaded back garden looks beautiful, but in a couple of hours the sun will be so fierce things will look bleached out. And it will be properly hot later: 35 celsius with high humidity.

          • momofone

            We had a snow day here. We’re not set up for snow and ice, so everything just stops when we have it. No more on the way though. 🙁

          • Mishimoo

            Enjoy snuggling up with a book and a hot drink, I envy your weather. (The heat and humidity wreak havoc on my joints.)

          • Who?

            Stay safe and warm-we keep seeing reports of blizzard, mud slide and who knows what else. Feels like we are all having an extreme end of year/start of new year.

            This weekend may be aircon and tennis/netflix-there should be something good on. My irish ancestors did not set me up to be able to be outside in the Australian summer!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            My irish ancestors did not set me up to be able to be outside in the Australian summer!

            Ditto. In fact, Australia nearly killed me – and, to add insult to injury, the diagnoses kept me there for an extra five years. I wasn’t allowed to fly without surgery; and (given my other health issues) no-one would operate until the risks of not operating exceeded the risks of operating (10x the possible death risk compared to other people).

          • Who?

            Lucky us for having you for that time, though I can see the hostage scenario is not the best, particularly when at the time you wouldn’t have known how long it would go on for.

            Hope things are on the upswing.

            And to all of you in the dangerous cold-stay safe and warm!

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            Me likey crepe myrtles too. 😛

          • Who?

            Very satisfying-you should be able to make good progress with kids back at school.

            It’s actually too hot to do anything much in the garden but water at the moment-my neighbours have just planted the loveliest hydrangeas, in full flower, but I fear they will not cope with the weekend ahead so soon after planting.

            Enjoy the aircon and good luck with the rest of your study!

          • Mishimoo

            It is far too hot to plant anything! I need to do some pruning and turn over some beds for the autumn veggies. Those poor hydrangeas!

            Also, I just read the feedback for my report: the marker inferred that I have internalised misogyny and gave me a feminist reading list. I held the hypothetical female manager to the same standard as a male manager, instead of deciding she was a victim (how is that feminist?!).

          • Who?

            It certainly is. We have retreated to the aircon and netflix.

            So interested in that feedback. My daughter is an engineer, and recently participated in assessment and training that revealed that she has an unconscious bias against mature aged professional women. Mummy issues aside, it seemed like an extraordinary assessment. Perhaps your experience sheds some light on the thinking: she’s not accustomed to thinking of people with power, money and influence as victims, regardless of their gender or anything else about them.

            Happy house rejig. I keep opening cupboards just for the pleasure of looking at them.

          • AnnaPDE

            Haha, but now I’ve made it rain for us by finally getting the family into the pool. And then out again because the thinder sounds a bit close. So now my toddler is happily running around dressed in a towel and shouting “Thor hammer bang!”

          • Roadstergal

            That’s amazing. 🙂

          • Mishimoo

            Hope you coped okay with today’s heat. We saw 40°C, thank Science for air-conditioning!

          • Azuran

            Wanna trade places? Here it’s -40°C.
            There is ice on the inside of my windows and doors.

          • Who?

            My that’s cold-hardly fit for humans to be in at all.

            Stay safe and warm!

          • Who?

            We got to very high 30s, and apart from a quick walk with the dog and a coffee on the way home, stayed in the aircon all day. Saturday night was so horrible I slept on the couch in the aircon, for the first time ever. It was bliss.

            Almost cool this morning, so back into the spring cleaning!

          • Mishimoo

            Glad you all coped pretty well with it too! We finished the back-to-school shopping, and now I just need to finish assessments. 1 down, 3 to go.

          • Acleron

            Congrats.

            I have found it is often the case that the more you know about a subject, the more self disparaging you can be about an exam/assessment before the result is out.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks!
            It certainly seems that way – I’m definitely more critical of my work than my lecturers.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Congratulations! Nice score!

            So sorry about the gastro stuff, though. That sucks.

          • Mishimoo

            Thanks! I was genuinely surprised but it.
            Gastro is the worst and I am so glad my kids are protected against some types thanks to the vaccine. It has made their childhood much easier than mine!

      • Claire Secrist

        I just think it’s fun, too.

      • ILoveJellybeans

        Its definitely fun, and a way to develop better writing skills.
        .
        Plus I have learned a hell of a lot and mostly gotten over my fear of needles.

    • kilda

      I usually try to stay out of these kind of conversations, because it’s like banging my head against a wall. I’d have more success explaining physics to my cat. But sometimes it’s too hard to watch someone spout so much wrong information about something I know a lot about.

      • Acleron

        teaching physics to your cat is not all futile, at least it likes the attention. These people are dangerous, people who do not understand the issues need to know the factual side.

        • Acleron

          ETA Any animal that can make a four point landing from any orientation at least knows the laws of conservation of angular momentum.

          • MaineJen

            Every Cat Ever: “I….MEANT to do that”

          • Acleron

            Thank you, that produced a much needed belly laugh on this dreary day.

        • Mike Stevens

          I just hope for her cat’s sake Kilda’s surname isn’t Schrodinger.

      • Charybdis

        I prefer banging my head against a wall, because it feels so good when I stop. Cia doesn’t stop, much like the Energizer Bunny.

        • Claire Secrist

          The Energizer Bunny believed in the laws of physics, I think. He’s clearly smarter than Cia.

          • Charybdis

            I think my socks are smarter than Cia.

          • Heidi

            Mine are. They’re called Smart Wool after all.

          • Roadstergal

            Dammit, you beat me to it! 😀 😀

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            What about the Duracell Bunnies? Aren’t they a more apt comparison for Cia? (I need to watch the first Energizer Bunny commercial again, where he leaves all the Duracell ones in the dust.)

      • Roadstergal

        I love immunology to tiny little bits, because it’s such a fascinating story of evolution and dead viruses and messing around with our DNA endlessly in truly crazy ways. So I love talking about it, even with someone who refuses to listen.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          And there are always the ‘lurkers’:
          the people who don’t know enough about the subject to feel entirely confident arguing against the nonsense without further information, so it is good to be able to provide links to the information they need;
          and those who read this blog to find out which side has the better arguments, and it is good to be able to counter the nonsense for their sakes.

          • maidmarian555

            I have learned so much from BTL debates/arguments here. There are a lot of incredibly smart people who explain things in a way that I wish I had been taught in school. I may have actually paid attention in my science classes then instead of merely attempting to melt stuff on the Bunsen burners for four years….

        • Acleron

          You might like this
          https://youtu.be/Q4QS62qMImw

          • Roadstergal

            I will check it out at lunch!

          • Roadstergal

            It’s a really cool video to explain complex concepts in an approachable way. Thanks for sharing it!

          • Acleron

            With knowledge comes understanding, with understanding comes beauty. I can imagine that after he worked all that out he drove down that road appreciating both the beauty of the flowers and the beauty of four dimensional environmental landscapes and the intricacies of the genetic control of the colour. And now he has passed that onto everyone else. Living in this age is wonderful.

        • MaineJen

          I’m seriously considering moving across the country just so we can be BFFs. 🙂

          • Roadstergal

            *bashful kick*

            I’m trying to make a move to a different country happen, though. The only thing keeping me here is how much I love my group…

  • Roadstergal

    Tangentially – because I was living in a country with suboptimal vaccination this summer, I had my measles/mumps/rubella titers tested to see if I needed a booster. I still have sturdy horking Ig responses to all three, at 41 years old. Vaccination, bitches.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      Well done! I keep having to get pertussis vaccination, because my immune system cannot remember how to fight it for any sensible length of time – despite my having had whooping cough naturally three times.

      • Kerlyssa

        i had to retake calc 2 twice- i feel a deep empathy w your immune system.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          I’m sorry, that must have sucked. Calculus seems to be one of those tricky things that you either ‘get’ immediately, or struggle with.

          Please don’t feel empathy with my immune system, though; if most people have an immune system which works as a well-disciplined regular army, mine would be the berserker militia, out of control most of the time, and usually drunk in the pub when needed. When finally dragged out to do battle, they flail around doing more damage to me than to the bug they’re supposed to be fighting.

          • shay simmons

            That almost sounds like a Terry Pratchett quote.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            That is a wonderful compliment. I’d love to be able to write like he did.

            I do miss that man. :'(

          • Kerlyssa

            …see, now my study-brain is feeling even more empathy w your immune system…

          • Roadstergal

            I am in love with this comment. 😀

      • MaineJen

        That just can’t possibly be true, Tigger…you must have gotten the *wrong kind* of natcheral pertussis those three times.

    • ciaparker2

      When I was pregnant eighteen years ago, I was tested for rubella antibodies, and because I had a subclinical case when I was a child, I still had antibodies to rubella decades later. I had measles at six. Maybe mumps, I don’t know, I probably had them. Natural diseases, ladies (we vaccine critics are classier than drug pushers), and you get a stronger immune system and cancer protection too!

      • momofone

        Except when you don’t. As I’ve stated before, I had measles and rubella and chicken pox, and horrible cases of each. Natural diseases, to be sure, as was the cancer I also developed.

        • Empress of the Iguana People

          I’m sure all my great-grandmothers had natural diseases, but that didn’t prevent Great-Grandma G dying of cancer in the mid 1960s or Great-Grandma C in the mid 1920s.

          • ciaparker2

            You will notice that in no case does the cancer risk go down to zero. But it goes down a lot the more childhood febrile diseases you had.

          • momofone

            You may not be aware of this, but “cancer” is not one disease. If you could be more specific about which types that would be helpful.

          • ciaparker2

            Sorry about your mind too. Do you guys all sit up all night at the asylum typing lunatic comments?

            In a group of 300 women with OVARIAN cancer and 300 living in the same neighborhood without and another 300 hospitalized for other conditions, the incidence of ovarian cancer was much lower in women who had contracted measles, mumps, rubella, or chickenpox in childhood, 53%, 39%, 38%, and 34% respectively. Newhouse, M., et al, Ä Case-Control study of Carcinoma of the Ovary,” Brit J of Prev and Social Medicine 31:148, 1977.

            Another group comparing 603 European and Israeli MELANOMA patients with 627 matched population controls found that those who had had flu, pneumonia, and almost any other febrile disease were much less likely to develop melanoma than those who had not, in proportion to the number of infections they reported. Ko(umlaut)lmel, K., “Infections and Melanoma Risk, “melanoma Research 9:511, 1999.

            Another group of adults with GLIOMA, a brain tumor, were compared with 414 matched controld, showing that glioma patients were much less likely to have had chickenpox. Wrensch, M., “Does Prior Infection with Varicella-Zoster Virus Influence Risk of Adult Glioma?”Am J of Ep 145:594, 1997.

            And the one you were asking about. 379 patients with many kinds of cancer and the same number of matched controls found that adults with a history of having had measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, or scarlet fever were 20% less likely to develop GENITAL, PROSTATE, GI, SKIN, LUNG, OR ENT CANCER if they had had one febrile disease in childhood, 60% less likely if they had three or four of them, and 76% less likely if they had had more than four. Albonico, H., “Febrile Infectious Childhood Diseases in the History of Cancer Patients and Matched Controls,” Med Hypotheses

          • Chi

            Yeah. No.

            That study was done 40 years ago. A LOT has changed in medical science since then, so either put up something relevant from the last decade, or shut the fuck up.

            Also, my mother had most of these so-called benign diseases and STILL got a Hutchinson’s melanoma – which is a skin cancer, and then breast cancer a few years later.

          • Mike Stevens

            What is the reduction in cancers from vaccine as opposed to having no vaccine and no natural illness, Cia?

            Oh, you don’t know…?

          • Mike Stevens

            So it’s fever that gives protection, rather than specifically mesles infection?

            Well, isn’t that good, …because fever is a side effect of vaccination.
            One can expect all vaccinated kids to have similar reductions in cancer then, can’t we?

          • FallsAngel

            Don’t encourage her!

        • ciaparker2

          If you get more than four of the diseases, it lowers your cancer risk by 80%, but not 100%.

          • momofone

            That’s interesting. Would you mind sharing your source for that?

          • ciaparker2

            In a group of 300 women with ovarian cancer and 300 living in the same neighborhood without and another 300 hospitalized for other conditions, the incidence of ovarian cancer was much lower in women who had contracted measles, mumps, rubella, or chickenpox in childhood, 53%, 39%, 38%, and 34% respectively. Newhouse, M., et al, Ä Case-Control study of Carcinoma of the Ovary,” Brit J of Prev and Social Medicine 31:148, 1977.

            Another group comparing 603 European and Israeli melanoma patients with 627 matched population controls found that those who had had flu, pneumonia, and almost any other febrile disease were much less likely to develop melanoma than those who had not, in proportion to the number of infections they reported. Ko(umlaut)lmel, K., “Infections and Melanoma Risk, “melanoma Research 9:511, 1999.

            Another group of adults with glioma, a brain tumor, were compared with 414 matched controld, showing that glioma patients were much less likely to have had chickenpox. Wrensch, M., “Does Prior Infection with Varicella-Zoster Virus Influence Risk of Adult Glioma?”Am J of Ep 145:594, 1997.

            And the one you were asking about. 379 patients with many kinds of cancer and the same number of matched controls found that adults with a history of having had measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, or scarlet fever were 20% less likely to develop genital, prostate, GI, skin, lung, or ENT cancer if they had had one febrile disease in childhood, 60% less likely if they had three or four of them, and 76% less likely if they had had more than four. Albonico, H., “Febrile Infectious Childhood Diseases in the History of Cancer Patients and Matched Controls,” Med Hypotheses 51:315, 1998.

          • momofone

            I’m sorry; anything more recent than two decades ago?

            Also, based on a quick read, my cancer was not any of types mentioned.

          • Box of Salt

            To be fair, the citation for melanoma is only 19 years old.

          • Mishimoo

            Only!
            I feel uncomfortable using anything older than 5 years, unless it is a relevant, scholarly text for the subject (even then I am a bit iffy about using it). It is just plain embarrassing to use something 19 years old in relation to fast-moving fields like immunology or oncology, especially when combined with subpar referencing skills.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, how clever of you ***. First eliminate those who had the diseases naturally, and then say that research using those in an earlier generation is completely invalid, and new research is, however lamentably, impossible, because you eliminated most of the potential study subjects.

            Again, science is science. These scientists carried out well-designed, professional studies which show how beneficial the childhood diseases are, the Aaby study showed how extremely beneficial natural measles was for five years after having it, and these other studies show how extremely beneficial all the childhood diseases are for the rest of their lives.

            You may only feel comfortable using pharma-sponsored studies, but parents researching the vaccine decision had better go much further afield than that.

          • Mishimoo

            Sorry, I’m going to have to mark you down due to the following points:
            – Lack of understanding in regard to the scientific process.
            – Low information literacy levels
            – Idolisation of scientists and refuted claims (see above re: scientific process).
            – Run-on sentences, repetitive vocabulary, contradictory concepts, and unnecessary emotion.

            Effort: 2/10
            Content: 0/10
            Clarity: 0/10

          • ciaparker2

            Yeah, what are you *** going to say? I have shown how vaccines destroy lives, while the natural childhood diseases are extremely beneficial, cut mortality to 20% of what it is without measles, and cancer rates slashed by having had the childhood diseases. But you have to say something insulting, so pat yourself on the back for having contributed to the destruction of human health.

          • Mishimoo

            My apologies, I neglected to score you on reading comprehension: 0/10.
            You did not prove any of those claims, hence the mark you received for content and subsequent failing grade for reading comprehension. Additionally, constructive criticism and feedback are not the same as an insult.

          • ciaparker2

            The four studies I posted in addition to Aaby’s proved that the natural childhood diseases greatly reduce the incidence of cancer and other causes of mortality. Pretty bad when the abysmal teacher can’t read herself, but Big Ph is scratching the bottom of the barrel these days.

          • MaineJen

            No one is listening to you.

          • Mishimoo

            Cia, insulting me will not alter your grade. Your arguments are lacking in content, clarity, and effort. Your reading comprehension is also rather poor. Please refer to the above remarks and consider how to improve your levels of information and science literacy.

          • Azuran

            seeing as the vaccines are different and the schedule is not the same, it actually makes perfect sense that older studies are no longer valid.
            Science is science, and science is not static, it is always moving forward.
            Please, put up the studies that those parents made.

          • Nick Sanders

            Aaby study, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12443670

            N = 215
            single local population

            Contradictory studies,
            https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/182/9/791/96333
            N ≈ 1,000,000
            multiple clustered populations across 62 countries

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4823017/
            N > than I can estimate
            national population data from 3 countries

            Verdict: Aaby study overruled.

          • kilda

            I regret that I have but one upvote to give.

          • momofone

            True. A youngster compared with the 40-year-old study from 1977.

          • ciaparker2

            One problem is that there have been ever fewer children getting these diseases, thanks to vaccines. Thank you, vaccines, for preventing mild, beneficial diseases and increasing the number of often-fatal cancers, autism, seizure disorders, and autoimmune diseases of every kind. How do you suggest they do such research once there are no longer any groups of people who have had the diseases? They could use me, I guess, as one, I had measles, chickenpox, and rubella as a child, maybe subclinical mumps. I had pertussis as an adult when my thrice-vaccinated eight-month old baby got pertussis anyway and gave it to me. Also hep-A, rotavirus, and a number of flus as an adult.

            However, facts are facts, science is science. The facts have clearly shown that those who went through the natural childhood diseases have much less cancer and other serious conditions, and the more diseases they went through naturally, the lower the cancer rate drops.

            What kind of cancer did/do you have?

          • momofone

            “However, facts are facts, science is science.”

            And as soon as you share some, we can discuss it.

          • ciaparker2

            I did. So sorry that all the vaccines you’ve gotten have destroyed your mind.

          • momofone

            Your absolute failure to grasp facts and/or science at all, in addition to your total lack of basic human decency, lead me to end this conversation.

          • Who?

            Classy.

          • Claire Secrist

            You’re such a clown show. Fighting an delusional war against science and public health in internet comment sections. Spending so much time doing so, that you clearly think it’s meaningful action. It’s possible to be severely mentally ill, very stupid, and a complete asshole at the same time,and boy are you the exemplar of that fact.

          • ciaparker2

            Better a clown than a lunatic like you and your colleagues.

          • Claire Secrist

            Oh shit, a professional internet commenter and racist thinks I’m crazy. Whatever will I do with the shame? Whatever will I do with the heartache? However will I carry on? Someone hug me. I promise I won’t shed too many vaccine cooties.

          • Who?

            I know. It’s like when some man on the internet speculates you might be ugly and have no sex appeal: the horror!!!

            Consider yourself hugged, btw.

          • Chi

            You don’t have a fucking shred of logic in your entire body, do you?

            The reason there is less cancer in your age cohort, is probably something to do with the fact that those illnesses KILLED off a good chunk of those who would have gotten cancer, had they lived past childhood. Just because YOU survived, doesn’t mean others got through scott-free. Some died, some were maimed for life. You were lucky, that’s it.

            Cancer is a disease mostly of old age. Yes there are childhood cancers, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

            Because people live longer now than they ever have before, it stands to reason that more people get cancer.

            Logic.

            Also, my mother was born in 1959. She STILL had measles, mumps, rubella and she STILL got breast cancer 6 years ago. So fuck your ridiculous theory.

            Instead of coming on here and spouting your ignorant and idiotic parroting of every anti-vaxx trope that ever existed, I suggest you get off the internet, find yourself a decent therapist and start getting yourself some fucking help so you stop referring to yourself and your poor daughter as ‘damaged.’

            Your daughter deserves someone to love and advocated for her, not someone who looks down on her as lesser and broken, because do you honestly think she doesn’t know, underneath it all, how much contempt you have for her and her condition?

            Fuck off and get some help. Seriously. You’re not going to convince ANYONE here that the shit you spout is worth taking seriously, so why bother?

          • ciaparker2

            Showing that you know nothing. In 1960, the mortality rate from measles in the US was one in 10,000 cases. Dr. Alexander Langmuir provided charts showing that in children between three and ten, it was less than one in 10,000 cases. In the UK in the ’80s, it was one or two per 10,000 cases. 99% of children in 1960 were seropositive for measles antibodies from natural measles. Four million cases a year. 450 deaths. And children were much healthier then, except that there WERE a lot who had disabling or fatal encephalitic reactions to the DPT. Pertussis had stopped being a serious disease before 1950. Sweden stopped giving the vaccine for seventeen years, 1989 to 1997, 60% of Swedish children in those years got pertussis (Arthur Allen, “Bucking the Herd,”), yet there was less than one death a year from pertussis. Chickenpox and mumps have never been serious diseases.
            I was a baby boomer. Everywhere you went there were smiling, laughing, polite, friendly, intelligent, normal children. No aides in any classroom, a tiny number of MR children at my school, no autism. Thirty children per class, and all could speak, read, write, sit quietly, and interact with each other and the teacher politely and productively. I only knew one girl who died, and she died of cystic fibrosis, nothing contagious. Everyone got measles and chickenpox. Everyone I ever knew had had measles as a child and recovered just fine.
            Now over half of American children have been severely damaged by vaccines. One in nine with asthma, one in two an allergy (skin, food, or respiratory), one in ten bowel disease, one in ten ADHD, one in 36 autism, one in twenty a seizure disorder, one in 200 diabetes, one in six a learning disorder. These conditions were very rare to non-existent when I was a child. In the ’60s the only shots were DPT and polio. In the ’70s they added M, M, and R. But autism was only three in 10,000 in 1987, then started upwards with the Hib and hep-B vaccines added around 1990. Then more and more vaccines, with more and more vaccine damage. And needless. I’d go with the DT series after two years old for healthy children, Hib only for children in day care and not breatfed, and polio only if it came back. No more. They’re not necessary and are much more dangerous than they are beneficial. And now the autism rate is one in 36. And no one has any idea how our society is going to take care of so many disabled young people for the rest of their lives.

          • Chi

            1) Asthma is more likely genetic, and more likely due to pollutants in our environment, NOT a vaccine reaction.

            2) The reason you didn’t see aides in your classrooms is because the children who were autistic or ‘special needs’ were often punted into different schools/classrooms and of course you never saw them. Now aides are in classrooms because the education system is trying to be more inclusive, which you seem to think is a bad thing.

            3) Cite some sources for the numbers you are spewing, else I’m going to assume you pulled them out of your delusional, lying ass.

            4) DTaP is MOST beneficial for those children under 2 because it is children under the age of 1 who are most likely to die from pertussis. But hey, survival of the fittest right?

            5) Diabetes has more to do with genetics and the fact that the diet of most Americans is rather appalling in that there is added sugar in pretty much everything. NOT the fault of vaccines, the fault of the sugar producers who lied and buried research that said sugar was responsible for the obesity epidemic, and pointed the finger at fats instead.

            You are trying SO hard to blame vaccines for everything, but the reality is, the only correlation between those diseases and vaccines is only in the heads of you and other anti-vaxx morons.

          • kilda

            >>No aides in any classroom, a tiny number of MR children at my school, no autism. Thirty children per class, and all could speak, read, write, sit quietly, and interact with each other and the teacher politely and productively.

            Oh for God’s sake. Because children with severe MR and autism were mostly institutionalized back then, not sitting in your classes, and children with milder special needs were in separate, special education programs. They didn’t start putting special needs kids in mainstream classes before the 1980s, genius.

          • Who?

            They used to be called Opportunity Schools here, and all closed by the end of the 70s. As a child I wouldn’t have known such a thing even existed, but there was a big one near us with really beautiful trees in the grounds, I always wanted to go there just for that reason, but couldn’t. It was never really talked about, certainly not in front of the children.

            There were always a number of unsettled kids in my primary school classes-late sixties to mid seventies-in retrospect probably dyslexic or a bit of adhd. These days they would go off for classes with the specialist teacher, or be supported by a teacher’s aide to stay in the mainstream classroom.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Blind schools these days are almost all kids with multiple disabilities; I only know one just blind person under 45 who went to one rather than getting mainstreamed.

          • ciaparker2

            There were some institutions, but not many, and they were expensive, and paid for out-of-pocket by parents who could afford them. Bridget Muncie, in Kanner’s first autistic cohort, was in two different institutions, paid for by her professional parents. In fact, no one had ever heard of autism back then. Rainman was the first inkling for most people. Now everyone knows families with autistic children, but they were never there before (well, apparently three in 10,000 American children in 1987, but no one I knew had ever heard of it). I never heard of any child institutionalized for mental disability. Now it’s one in 37 American children with autism. There would have had to be THOUSANDS of institutions all over the country to hold that many, and, again, most people could not have afforded them. And what happened to them? A lot of people would like to assure the safety and well-being of their autistic family members now, but there are not nearly enough institutions to meet the need, and they all have long waiting lists.

          • kilda

            there were state institutions all over the country, and back in the 1950s, parents of special needs children were routinely advised to put their children in them. Parents who kept their kids at home were the exception. Most parents relinquished their severely disabled kids to the state and walked away.

          • ciaparker2

            So look at the North Dakota study. The researchers asked for the medical and school records for every single child in North Dakota in 1987 (and then later did a recount to make sure they had been 100% accurate), and met personally with each one diagnosed with autism or something similar, and found only three in 10,000 children there had it. The others were all normal. They looked at the records for EVERY child, institutionalized or not. Very, very few had autism. At today’s rate, there would be 278 children with autism in every 10,000. So it’s 93 times more common now than it was thirty years ago, a serious, permanent lifelong disability which prevents the autist from ever being independent or self-supporting.

            Autism wasn’t even mentioned in college textbooks on psychology, because, again, it was very, very rare even in the ’80s. Only started picking up with the addition of more and more vaccines, starting around 1990.

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/10/back-when-autism-was-a-rare-life-long-institutionalized-disorder-1991.html

            “As I always do whenever I find old medical books, I immediately look for Autism. I wonder what they had to say at the time the book was published and if they can shed any light on it. As I mentioned in a post not that long ago, I have a 700 page book published in 1994 by the American Academy of Pediatrics referred to as the authoritative guide on all things developmental, birth to age 5, that doesn’t even have the word in it. Apparently, they didn’t think Autism was an important developmental problem at the time, in spite of the fact they changed the criteria to supposedly make it more encompassing that very year. (That’s what we’re told anyway.)

            Interestingly however, my psychology book published 3 years earlier did indeed mention Autism. That’s the picture of page 618 (click image to enlarge) and this is what it says:

            “Autistic disorder is rare, occurring in fewer than five children per ten thousand births, but with few exceptions (Lovaas, 1987), it leads to a life of marginal adjustment, often within an institution.”

          • namaste

            “Keeps the autist from ever being independent or self-supporting”

            Tell that to a few of my autistic friends, who lead perfectly normal, productive lives. Hell, tell it to some of the autistic people who are regular commenters on this blog. Tell that to the classmates I had in grad school who were autistic and graduated with honors. Jesus, tell that to Temple fucking Grandin. You know why autism appears to be on the rise? The definition of autism keeps changing as we learn more and more about it. Autism is poorly understood. It is constantly being re-defined and re-classified, and people who were not previously understood as having been autistic now fit the diagnostic criteria for the disorder. That, and there’s a certain level of over-diagnosis. The brain is a massively complex organ that we are only just beginning to understand. Our knowledge and understanding of autism changes every day. That’s the nature of science. It’s constantly in motion. And before you come out with some sort of drivel about how I don’t know shit about autism, consider this: My B.A. is in psychology, and my Masters is in Social Work with a concentration in mental health. I’m pretty sure I know what I’m talking about.

          • Jack Sprat

            Am I the only bothered by her use of the word “normal?”

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, heavens no. You should see how disparagingly she describes people with autism when she isn’t talking about her daughter.

          • Jack Sprat

            Which is why you (Cia) never knew of or heard of those children; much similar to daughters that “went to live with their aunt.”

          • Roadstergal

            That’s a good parallel. I remember a pregnant girl at my high school, and there was some tsk-ing by some older folk about how when they went to high school, there weren’t pregnant girls. Of course, the change wasn’t that the girls were getting pregnant – it was that they were continuing to get an education!

          • Nick Sanders

            Rainman is based on a guy who isn’t even autistic, and is a horribly defamatory portrayal of people with mental disabilities.

            Also, you still haven’t supported your claim that diagnosis rates are 1 in 37.

          • Roadstergal

            Man, I haven’t thought of that movie in decades. I vaguely remember it making me uncomfortable… I’ll have to look that up.

          • Nick Sanders

            It had some heartwarming moments, but man, did it ever treat Raymond as unable to walk and chew gum.

          • Caylynn Donne

            So Template Grandin doesn’t exist? Born in 1947, and she has autism. She’s made use of her differing abilities to understand animal behaviour in a way many neurotypicals can’t:
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

            Also autism was officially described in 1908, and earlier than that, it was just called by other names (usually some sort of mental disorder or disease).

            There were thousands of institutions for atypical individuals in the past. We started closing them down in the 80s and 90s. Sadly some people couldn’t function outside of an institution and ended up homeless on the streets.

          • ciaparker2

            Read The Age of Autism and Denial. Temple Grandin got and reacted to the DPT. My brother and I reacted to it too, with vaccine encephalitis, and grew up with Asperger’s. The DPT was introduced in the US in 1948. The first autistic children, identified by Dr. Kanner, reacted to mercury in fungicides or in the diphtheria vaccine, added as a thimerosal preservative in 1932.
            Read A Shot in the Dark for more information about the horrible brain damage often done by the DPT.

          • MaineJen

            OH MY GOD she won’t stop.

          • Nick Sanders

            Thank you, Ronald Reagan, for being an utter bastard…

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Here in Canada it was the various provincial governments of the time who were responsible. In 1976 there were 16 institutions in the province of Ontario that housed more than 10,000 people with developmental disabilities, including those with autism. Now, families with severely affected children often have nowhere to turn.

            When I was working with an organization that provided healthcare to marginalized populations, a number of my clients were homeless. A good number of them had developmental disabilities or similar impairments. Integration into the community has been good for many, but it certainly left some people with nowhere to go.

          • ciaparker2

            My elementary school, Halle Hewetson in Las Vegas, had two classes for each grade, K-6, with thirty students per class. So about 420 students. There was a very small special needs class with four or five students mentally retarded children. At today’s rates, there would have been eleven or twelve autistic students. Per school. I never heard anyone say that they had a relative in a special school for the mentally-handicapped. Why don’t you look it up and tell me how many students were in special schools for the autistic or otherwise mentally handicapped in Las Vegas in the mid-’60s? At that time autism was only in less than three in 10,000, see North Dakota study. Dr. Kanner, who identified it in 1943, said it was so unusual and distinctive (echolalia, pronoun reversal, inability to socialize, etc.) that if it had existed before, someone would have described it, but no one ever had.

          • Nick Sanders

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#History

            “A few examples of autistic symptoms and treatments were described long before autism was named. The Table Talk of Martin Luther, compiled by his notetaker, Mathesius, contains the story of a 12-year-old boy who may have been severely autistic.[216] Luther reportedly thought the boy was a soulless mass of flesh possessed by the devil, and suggested that he be suffocated, although a later critic has cast doubt on the veracity of this report.[217] The earliest well-documented case of autism is that of Hugh Blair of Borgue, as detailed in a 1747 court case in which his brother successfully petitioned to annul Blair’s marriage to gain Blair’s inheritance.[218] The Wild Boy of Aveyron, a feral child caught in 1798, showed several signs of autism; the medical student Jean Itard treated him with a behavioral program designed to help him form social attachments and to induce speech via imitation.[219]”

          • ciaparker2

            The feral children and deaf children had no language because they had never been around humans to activate their inborn language circuits or were not able to hear the language in order to activate them. Autism occurs when a child with normal care and hearing cannot use his language circuits because of structural damage (usually by vaccines).

            Read Denial. Also The Age of Autism. You will see that autism was new with vaccines (although there were probably some children who had had encephalitis from non-vaccine causes who had it as well). There were reports described in The Age of Autism of some children who reacted to the smallpox vaccine with autism, one little girl lost her language and started acting crazy, picking up hot coals from the fire. And they dumped them in Bedlam.

            Current rates are one in 36 in the US. (Also newly very high in the UK and Scotland.) If they had always been this high, there would have been thousands of descriptions of people with it, hundreds of characters in books, albeit minor characters. Historic records of autistic people in ancient Rome, the Middle Ages, the frontier. But there are not. Because autism was new with vaccine encephalitis.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not wasting my time on books by cranks. Show me peer-reviewed papers or stop pushing nonsense.

            And back up your damn 1 in 36 claim already.

          • Azuran

            And I went to elementary school in the mid 90s, all classes were also 30 people, everyone could talk and read and nobody had a learning condition…….Because all the children with handicap went to the ‘special’ school.
            We used to shun and hide them. That’s why you didn’t see them.
            It’s really unbelievable that you think that what you personally see or didn’t see is a good indication of how the world works. You are so close minded.

          • Mike Stevens

            “It’s really unbelievable that you think that what you personally see or didn’t see is a good indication of how the world works.”

            She has a distressing inability to see how irrationally she views the world, too.
            She has personally seen 5 of her own friends develop cervical cancer, yet despite personally “seeing” this, she still concludes that the only people who get cervical cancer are promiscuous drug users.

          • Roadstergal

            I went to a different sort of grade school in the ’80s (it was called an ‘experimental laboratory school’). It was experimenting with, among other things, mingling ‘special needs’ children with more mainstream children to help the former integrate better, and to make the latter more aware of people with special needs and how to work with them. We had a _lot_ of Down’s Syndrome kids with their helpers, and kids with attention deficit disorder (not sure what they called it at the time, but that’s definitely what it was); they had special arts and music programs to try to engage those kids. My bus rides were manic.

            But that’s because I was at a school that was specifically trying to reverse the trend of isolating and hiding the ‘imperfect.’

            You weren’t, and now that you know they exist, you’re horrified. You little snowflake.

          • If she had gone to such a school as you did, might not her current fear and loathing of people with special needs have been greatly mitigated?

          • ciaparker2

            Gee, you also know nothing. Autistic children are language-impaired from the vaccine encephalitis. That means they have stroke-like damage to the language center of their brain. And that means that they understand very little of their native language, English in this case. I’m well aware, after twelve years of IEP meetings for my autistic daughter, about the modern laws mandating full inclusion for special needs students. It’s really just laziness and avarice. My daughter was included, but therein lay nothing but frustration, boredom, and a sense of vast inferiority. Everyone else understood the texts and could answer questions. My daughter couldn’t. Until I started teaching her English as a Second Language four years ago, she had never even said There it is! Here it is! She picked it up right away and started using it after my instruction. For the first time that week at the store I said What aisle is the toilet paper in? And she pointed and said There it is! I misplaced my purse, she found it, and, because prepositional phrases were also at the beginning of the Connect ESL book, she was able to say for the FIRST time, It was in the garage! She was thirteen years old, in the seventh grade, and had never independently said either of these things. And yet at school they wanted her to write a report on Benjamin Harrison, when she had the use of almost no grammatical structures or vocabulary over a two-year old’s typical level.

            She constantly disrupted class asking the teacher loudly Are you a cat? (after we had practiced the structure of questions in English). She had a para who told her what to write on her class work, but she could do NONE of it independently because it was way, way over her language abilities. She had been in language therapy at school from kindergarten on, but it did NOTHING for her, just friendly questions like What’s your favorite book? What’s your favorite toy? What did you do over Christmas break? Year after year after year of friendly questions, but since she had had her inborn grammatical language neural circuits broken by the encephalitis, she had never been able to use what she should have had to be able to access and use language. I asked if she could be in the special ed class. They said no, because she had been tested as having a normal IQ. And there were already ten students in the special ed class, and it would hold no more. (An illegal statement, obviously.) And that the special ed students had to use the same grade-level textbooks as the typical students, they were supposed to be “modified” for the special needs students, but it’s been twelve years now, and I haven’t see a single page of modified work given to my daughter. They decided to isolate her in the autism classroom (which was only used for one or two hours a day) with a para to do online PLATO seventh-grade coursework. And it was four months before they tested her on what she had learned, and she got Fs in everything. She hadn’t understood or learned a single thing. A few months later she was so lonely, frustrated, and unhappy that I took her out of school (she wanted to try again the following year, when she started ninth grade and high school. She still does nothing productive and learns nothing, but it’s something different with friendly people). We’ve always done homeschooling several days a week, and that’s how she’s learned what she’s learned. We’re on the Great Depression now. She has to just memorize the answers to about sixty questions per question sheet (six weeks of work).

            Down’s syndrome children are known to be friendly, cooperative, and helpful. Autistic students are usually not. Their brain damage is different from that of DS.

            I tried to get my daughter to go to Spanish club and a couple of afternoon school dances, but she was completely uninterested and didn’t want to go. To integrate you have to understand the situation and what people are saying and doing around you, and for that you have to have language. She was in girl scouts for seven years, but isolated, no one was friendly to her and she couldn’t participate much. She did therapeutic horseback riding for three summers, but it was boring, two sidewalkers at all times, another leading the horse, and just walking, no trotting, cantering, or galloping, and she got tired of it. I taught her to swim over seven summers, and she swims well now. We go to the roller skating rink once a week, I read while she skates. She’s good at baking and can bake many things completely unassisted from beginning to end. But she’s bored, lonely, and unhappy most of the time.

            My daughter has never been interested in music either. She loves her cats, but has never even looked at the books on cat care for children that I’ve gotten her. Not interested in doing cat puzzles or coloring in cat coloring books. Not interested in reading children’s novels with cats as the main characters. Or anything else. She was hyperlexic, knew how to read at four without ever having been taught (I was too), but has never read anything for pleasure. Her encephalitic brain damage prevents her from following story lines, so she’s not interested in books or movies, she can’t follow them, so it’s boring and makes her feel inferior to others.

            I’m giving her a homeopathic remedy made from the hep-B vaccine which damaged her, four different levels of potency. When we have made as much progress as we can with it, I’ll get a similar series made from the DTaP which erased her only words and led her to be diagnosed with autism two months later. And three weeks ago, when I lit the Advent wreath and sang carols, for the first time in almost eighteen years, she sang WITH me. The FIRST time she had ever sung. And she knew all the words and the tunes. I think it was the homeopathic clearing remedy, it was the only thing different.

            My daughter is brain-damaged from vaccines. She IS imperfect. She can understand very little language and very little of what is said and done around her. And she’s not interested in it either. Probably from long years of frustration, but since our society is not trying to teach the autistic the structures of language, no progress is made. You have to have command of the structures even to think about, store, and remember your experienced reality in your mind. And it’s a gradual progression over years to be able to use concepts and use them to think about more complex situations. School has done NOTHING for her. Literally NOTHING. She hasn’t learned one single solitary thing there. She has NO friends, because, again, if you can’t talk to others, well, then they can’t talk to you either. What can you do without language? No songs, no movies, no books, no magazines, no Twilight, no Game of Thrones, just a sort of endless, boring twilight.
            Horrified? You have told me NOTHING of interest or value. Autism is NOT like Down’s syndrome at all. My daughter has normal intelligence, but is isolated in a world with more language than she had before we started studying it specifically four years ago, but way way way below the level of typical seventeen year olds. Like my mother, who got Alzheimer’s from vaccines (and my father was paralyzed by them). My mother was ultimately paralyzed by Alzheimer’s (vaccine mercury poisoning), and just lay in bed, unable to read, watch TV, talk, or move her hands or arms. And she existed in that twilight hell for years before finally dying and being released into eternal life. My daughter is in a similar state, intelligent but completely isolated from the world, not by deliberate cruelty on anyone’s part, but by the broken language structures caused by the vaccine encephalitis. I’ll continue working to help her progress for the rest of my life. I wish they hadn’t given her the hep-B shot they gave her at the hospital when she was born, without permission and despite my express wishes, I said that I had read that the shot often caused autism and I did NOT want it for my daughter. But they gave it to her at midnight, without asking. So, live and learn. So what if my daughter’s life was destroyed? Would you say that someone who was run over by a truck, their legs cut off, with severe brain damage was imperfect? Or severely injured? If you would, then that is also what my daughter is. And she is. Because of vaccines.

          • MaineJen

            “Autistic children are language-impaired from the vaccine encephalitis. That means they have stroke-like damage to the language center of their brain. And that means that they understand very little of their native language, English in this case. ”

            Amazing. Every part of what you just said was wrong.

            Honestly, you show such naked contempt for your daughter, I feel more sorry for her by the day.

          • Empliau

            Upvoted for Last Jedi reference!

          • Mishimoo

            Based on cia’s comments, (and visible contempt for her daughter) I’m starting to be concerned that it might end up like the Blancharde case. That is, if the daughter actually exists.

          • Nick Sanders

            Encephalitis and strokes are very different and do not resemble each other. Neither cause autism, nor do vaccines.

            Further, homeopathy is worthless, and I really, honestly wish your daughter had been taken away from you and placed with someone who loves her for who she is rather than putting her through hell for being “damaged”.

          • ciaparker2

            Encephalitis causes swelling of the brain, which causes blockage of the blood vessels and hemorrhaging in the capillary beds. The massive outpouring of white blood cells caused by the vaccine inflammation also blocks blood flow. Like strokes. My daughter has been diagnosed with language aphasia, which can be done by either strokes or encephalitis. One kind of strokes causes hemorrhaging. They are very similar.
            You know nothing about homeopathy or how many it has helped. I’m not interested in anything you say about this or anything else.
            Since you have nothing productive to contribute, why don’t you just get out of the way?

          • Nick Sanders

            https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9637/829d1e055c7e62d39bd8bc3a69952bef03b3.pdf

            “Widespread immunization against encephalitis and other diseases has brought a marked decrease in their occurrence,”
            “Language and speech impairments develop mostly in children with severe encephalopathy (generally those with hypoglycaemia or elevated intracranial pressure), and in cases of long-term nutritional deprivation (Walther & Ramaekers, 1982). These deficits might be a manifestation of global cerebral damage rather than injury to a specific area of the brain, given the wide range of risk factors associated with language. …(Pennington, et al., 2004).”

            Edit: oh, and there are no white blood cells in the brain, so it would be impossible for them to block blood flow inside it.

          • Roadstergal

            Hypoglycemia and nutritional deprivation – such as happens when you starve a newborn for days?

          • ciaparker2

            My daughter nursed enthusiastically in the first days of her life, until the vaccine reaction started Tuesday evening, May 9, 2000, after the vaccine had been given Friday night at midnight, May 5. Classic time for that vaccine reaction to start. Babies can’t nurse while the vaccine encephalitis lasts, because of the pain. She lost one pound two ounces in the first two of the four days of her screaming, I’d have to get my old calendar to see how much it was the second two days. When the reaction stopped late Saturday afternoon, May 13, she once again nursed lustily, and quickly gained back the weight she had lost.

            The doctor had brushed it off as colic, but colic never occurs in the first week of life and does not interfere with feeding.

            Sure, go ahead and try to paint me as a monster. Anyone reading can see the truth.

          • MaineJen

            So wait. She didn’t get adequate nutrition for the first 8 days of life?

          • ciaparker2

            Well, language disability is the number one indicator of autism, now in one in 36 American children. Up from three in 10,000 in 1987 and 0 in 1900.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Autism is a highly variable neurodevelopmental disorder[19] that first appears during infancy or childhood, and generally follows a steady course without remission.[20] People with autism may be severely impaired in some respects but normal, or even superior, in others.[21] Overt symptoms gradually begin after the age of six months, become established by age two or three years,[22] and tend to continue through adulthood, although often in more muted form.[23] It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive behavior.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

            Emphasis mine.

            And I wanna see your source from those numbers, because they are utter bullshit.

          • ciaparker2

            To determine prevalence rates for the pervasive developmental disorders (PDD) in North Dakota, all relevant health and service providers were asked to provide names and records of all patients who had autistic symptoms. All identified patients were seen by the authors for a comprehensive evaluation. Of North Dakota’s 180,986 children, 2 through 18, 21 met DSM-III criteria for infantile autism (IA), two met
            criteria for childhood onset pervasive developmental disorder (COPDD), and 36 were diagnosed as having atypical pervasive developmental disorder (APDD) because they met behavioral criteria for COPDD before age 30 months but never met criteria for IA. The prevalence rates were estimated at 1.16 per 10,000 for IA, 0.11 per 10,000 for COPDD, and 1.99 per 10,000 for APDD. The combined rate
            for all PDD was 3.26 per 10,000 with a male to female ratio of 2.7 to 1. Results are discussed in relation to previous prevalence studies using other
            diagnostic criteria.

            http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2965024-3/abstract

          • ciaparker2

            The North Dakota study, the one above that produced 3.3 kids per 10,000 with autism, used the DSM-III criteria for autism. Today, we use the DSM-IV criteria for autism. Is DSM-IV radically more expansive than DSM-III? Let me ask a different question: was DSM-III so narrow as to miss 96.7% of the kids who today have an autism diagnosis?
            There’s only one way to know, let’s look at the actual DSM-III criteria for autism:

            DSM III (1980): Diagnostic criteria for Infantile Autism

            A. Onset before 30 months of age 



            B. Pervasive lack of responsiveness to other people (autism) 



            C. Gross deficits in language development



            D. If speech is present, peculiar speech patterns such as immediate and delayed echolalia, metaphorical language, pronominal reversal.



            E. Bizarre responses to various aspects of the environment, e.g., resistance to change, peculiar interest in or attachments to animate or inanimate objects.



            F. Absence of delusions, hallucinations, loosening of associations, and incoherence as in Schizophrenia.

          • ciaparker2

            http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/09/autism-not-really-on-the-rise-967-impossible.html
            Link for above quotation.
            They keep redefining the diagnostic criteria for autism to try to dilute it and pretend that is has always been around, but they and everyone else knows that that is false. It was new with vaccines. See Denial, by Olmsted and Blaxill.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Excuse my French, but fucking Age of Autism?! If there is one site competing with Auti$m $peak$ for bigotry against autistic people, it is that one.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, we use the DSM-V. You’re doubly out of date.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Sorry to correct you, but it is the DSM-5. No, I don’t know why they dropped the Roman numeral system.

          • Mike Stevens

            “prevalence rates were estimated”

            Cia, I thought you categorised any study that used the word “estimated” as being garbage.
            Have you suddenly changed your tune?

          • Nick Sanders

            Congratulations, that is utterly worthless on every level.

          • ciaparker2

            Now they have diluted the definition, like they did the original Verstraeten study after Simpsonwood, to try to keep people from realizing the truth. But twenty years ago, to diagnose autism, you used a check list of symptoms (there has never been a clinical test). You had to check off five or more in the language disability category and then three in either that of impaired social interactions or repetitive manias. The language impairment was obviously the most concerning symptom.

            I have given you the sources of my figures. Read Denial and The Age of Autism (book), meticulously documented, and the North Dakota autism study in 1987. I gave you the link to it.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, they refined their definition of an emerging field of study based on new information. That’s what medical science does.

          • Mike Stevens

            Your daughter has an NRXN-1 gene deletion, Cia.
            Probably involving CNTNAP2.

            This causes autism, with specific problems in language, and other neurological features which afflict her and your family.
            It’s genetic.
            https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/cntnap2

          • ciaparker2

            It does not directly cause autism. It requires an additional environmental trigger to result in autism, as you well know. Like a vaccine. Now give me your studies on how the gene deletion causes four days and nights of screaming syndrome, which then stops and everything seems to go back to normal. And how the gene deletion causes the loss of language when another vaccine is received (the DTaP booster in this case). The genetic difference causes SUSCEPTIBILITY and RISK, but does not directly cause autism. It is the vaccine trigger which does.

            “Neurexin 1 (NRXN1) was recently implicated as an autism susceptibility gene. The association is intriguing because it interacts with neuroligin-3 and SHANK3, two other genes previously found to generate risk for autism and mental retardation, at synaptic junctions to help regulate synapse formation. Dr. Gusella and his colleagues plan to examine NRXN1 in samples from AGRE and samples collected by collaborators for mutations or variations that could disrupt its function and determine if it plays a role in a larger proportion of autism cases. In addition, since the samples will be clinically well characterized, there is also an opportunity to establish a more robust correlation between genetic variation and clinical presentation. What this means for people with autism: This study could determine the impact of NRXN1 variation on autism risk and a better sense of its frequency in the autism community. Understanding how these variants affect protein function and synaptogenesis could shed light on the underlying disease mechanism.”

            https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/grants/role-neurexin-1-gene-susceptibility-autism

          • MaineJen

            An additional environmental trigger…like oxygen deprivation during birth? Like calorie deprivation during the first week of life?

          • Mike Stevens

            Exactly.
            Or the trigger of febrile infections like chickenpox (from Cia deliberately infecting her child)
            [But they aren’t needed anyway for the NRXN-1 gene deletion to cause autism]

          • kilda

            I’m sorry to break this to you also, but your daughter did not lose her language when she got the DTaP booster, because she didn’t have any. From your description, she had two barely distinguishable grunting sounds that she used when she got excited by seeing a playground or a dog. That’s not language.

            The reality you don’t want to face is that your daughter was already *severely* delayed and autistic at that point. And the reason for those delays was not the HepB vaccine she got as a newborn – it was the gene deletion which she has, possibly exacerbated by hypoxia during birth and early calorie deprivation.

            You have built yourself a very elaborate fantasy world to live in because you don’t want to face this simple truth.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh yes, that other bastion of “fuck the damn autistics”, Autism Speaks.

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh but it does directly cause autism, Cia.
            Animal studies in NRXN-1 gene deletions have demonstrated identical synapse interference, and none of the animals needed some other trigger such as a vaccine to do it.

            If you are concerned about vaccines triggering problems, then you’ll be hypothesising that they induced oxidative stress through fever, I imagine…?
            Well, the stress induced by natural infections would serve as a greater trigger.

            Have you ever thought that by deliberately infecting your daughter with chickepox that you might be triggering oxidative stress, causing mitochondrial dysfunction and triggering further neurexin-1 mediated neuronal synapse defects?

            Not only has your daughter got autism from a genetic basis, but you may have triggered progression by deliberately provoking oxidative stress.

          • kilda

            >>swelling of the brain, which causes blockage of the blood vessels and hemorrhaging in the capillary beds. The massive outpouring of white blood cells caused by the vaccine inflammation also blocks blood flow.

            Again, no. I am a neurologist, and you don’t know what you are talking about. Aphasia is a symptom, not a diagnosis, and yes it can be caused by strokes or by other processes in the brain. But the things you are talking about – blocked blood vessels, hemorrhaging, would show up on an MRI. Anyone who told you otherwise doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, C has never had a brain scan, so I don’t know what it would show. That’s one of the problems with autism, it occurs usually years after the vaccine insult was incurred, and often the physical evidence is no longer present. I have had two MRIs which showed the brain lesions of MS (caused by brachial plexus neuropathy from a tetanus vaccine reaction, no, I should say that the paralysis was a symptom of the reaction, but it works out to be the same). But the lesions disappear between attacks.

          • kilda

            then they aren’t lesions of MS, dear, they’re something else. MS lesions don’t come and go, although MS symptoms can. Oh, and a brachial plexus neuropathy can’t cause MS. That makes exactly as much sense as saying that stubbing your toe gave you appendicitis.

            Regarding autism, the type of damage you are talking about (stroke damage) is still visible years after the brain insult occurs. It doesn’t go away.

            This might be a good time to admit you don’t know nearly as much about the brain, its diseases, and its imaging as you think you do. Because you’re arguing with a board certified neurologist and you’re looking pretty foolish.

          • Mike Stevens

            Thanks for confirming what I have been trying to tell her for a couple of years.
            She is obsessed by the idea that every illness (most of them neuropsychiatric) in her family is the result of vaccines- doesn’t matter which one.
            “Tetanus could cause brachial plexus neuropathy? Oh That will be the cause of my MS then, won’t it, since the word “nerve” is linked to both conditions!”

          • Mike Stevens

            “This might be a good time to admit you don’t know nearly as much about the brain, its diseases, and its imaging as you think you do. Because you’re arguing with a board certified neurologist and you’re looking pretty foolish.”

            That won’t stop her.
            She argues with me about every infection and vaccine, and I am a UK Infectious Diseases specialist.
            She once told me she “knew more about Hepatitis B than did the CDC, the WHO and the AMA put together”.
            Seriously.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            She once told me she “knew more about Hepatitis B than did the CDC, the WHO and the AMA put together”.
            Seriously.

            Does she know more about ISIS than the generals, too?

          • Mike Stevens

            She thinks so, yes.
            But then I possibly know more about them than the generals.. 😉

          • Roadstergal

            She probably _does_ think she’s a really stable genius…

          • Jack Sprat

            cuz she knows one end of a horse from another? Doubt it.

          • shay simmons

            She thinks she knows more about the Koran than Muslims do, so…

          • Jack Sprat

            Good grief, what an exchange she and I had on Islam. The racism is strong in that one.

          • shay simmons

            #middleclasswhitelivesmatter.

            Nobody else’s, though.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I love Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion, when it makes posers look stupid. Usually it means I have learned something.

            Thanks, kilda, for your insights.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, the physical evidence does not fade. Brain damage is permanent and visible, because the brain has extremely limited regenerative capabilities. If it’s happened, it’s there forever.

          • kilda

            exactly. I’m not disputing that your daughter has abnormal language function, clearly she does. I agree that the *function* of the language areas of her brain is not normal. But it’s not due to any kind of “structural damage” or “stroke-like damage.” It’s just not, that’s not how brains, strokes and brain imaging work.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia has stated her daughter has Neurexin-1 gene deletion, and she also had perinatal hypoxia from a true knot in the cord necessitating emergency C-section because of suspected fetal hypoxia. Apgars were low at both 1 and 5 minutes.

            She thinks inconsolable screaming is a cardinal diagnostic sign of encephalitis, even in the absecence of any of the other diagnostic criteria. She self-diagnosed it in her infant. Never took her to a doctor or the ER.

            Maybe you can talk some sense into her, but I doubt it, and it really probably isn’t worth spending too long wasting your time on her.

            Me? I do it because I am part time, and I like countering antivax garbage as a hobby.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            As it happens, because his lack of hearing, one of my twins did have a brain scan as a tiny infant. It showed a huge, fluid-filled ‘hole’ in the centre of his brain, and the neurologist told me that he couldn’t predict how disabled he might be. Some months after his surgery at four months of age which gave him some hearing, he had another scan – which showed a normal brain. As I understand it (being a non-medical person) the excess fluid had drained away, the compressed brain tissue had ‘bounced back’ and, far from being brain damaged, he’s a highly intelligent young man who just happens to be autistic and hard of hearing.

          • Azuran

            Autism doesn’t occurs after years, signs start being visible pretty early, you don’t become autistic at 7 years old. You said yourself that your kids was already extremely delayed by the time she was 18 months, which obviously didn’t happen overnight. She very clearly had been falling behind for months.
            And brain damage caused by encephalitis doesn’t ‘go away’ If your daughter was brain damaged by vaccine, it would show on a scan. You didn’t get one because you know it would show nothing because autism is genetic and she isn’t vaccine damaged.

          • Mike Stevens

            Heavens.. she has now been told about strokes by a Neurologist, and about encephalitis by an ID Physician.
            We should bill her for our expertise…

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I get aphasia with migraine. I was diagnosed with hemiplegic migraines by a neurologist in Adelaide. As a result of frequent hospital visits with stroke-like symptoms, I have had more CT scans and MRIs of my brain than I would care to count. No damage whatsoever, zilch. And I’m most definitely autistic.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m an Infection Specialist who oversees a couple of studies our NHS Trust is doing on encephalitis.
            I’ve explained at length to Cia about the difference between strokes and encephalitis. One would think she’d be grateful for the personal tutorial, but no, she knows more than I do about encephalitis, according to her.
            She is ineducable, and willfully ignorant.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m an autistic who has had, at different times and for different reasons, both an MRI and a CT scan of my brain, neither showed any sign of encephalitic or stroke damage, but hey, what do I know about any of this?

          • Jack Sprat

            According to CIA, you could no longer be autistic?

          • MaineJen

            Have you taken any homeopathic nosodes recently? I hear they can reverse the brain damage. /s

          • Roadstergal

            I’m sure he’s had some glasses of water…

          • Nick Sanders

            But I didn’t thump them against a Bible first, so I never got the magic powers.

          • Who?

            That is a really critical step-does it have to be King James version though? I wonder what happens if you hit the water with the wrong sort of bible?

          • Nick Sanders

            Someone should organize a study for that; although the only method I can think of to blind it without adulterating the books is to use translations that the proofers don’t speak.

          • Who?

            But even when we get that bit right-does homeopathy work on atheists? Or people of creeds other than christianity? Does the water need to be hit with a book from the user’s creed? What if it’s a creed without a book?
            Gaaahh!!!

          • Acleron

            It doesn’t matter, you get exactly the same effectiveness.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Roadstergal

            What if you use a Koran?

            Or a Torah? Does the Old Testament count, or do you need the New?

            What about a Book of Mormon?

          • MaineJen

            Then you get the wrong sort of cancer, obviously.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s for lipomas. Get your woo facts straight! (J/K)

          • So, question for Nick or any other person (autistic or not): Cia says her daughter lacks empathy. It seems to me that I heard that autistic people don’t actually lack empathy, but that some forms of it could be impaired and that it’s mostly difficulty with expressing empathy that’s the problem. I know it’s exceedingly difficult to make a blanket statement about “autistics” since the range of ASD is enormous and diverse, but I simply haven’t got the background knowledge to comment intelligently on this sort of thing, though it seems interesting to me. Do you have any recommended reading?

          • Nick Sanders

            For me at least, it’s about which definition of “empathy” one is using.

            By the definition of “ability to recognize and comprehend the emotions of others by observation”, yeah, I have significant trouble with that when someone isn’t making a simple, overt display such as laughing, scowling, or crying.

            By the definition of “concern for the feelings and well-being for others” I don’t wish to brag, but I’m of the opinion that I have a good amount, and frequently one of the things I see in descriptions of other autistic people by those close to them is “s/he’s got a big heart”.

          • Do you think this sounds reasonable? (And again, I know you can’t speak for others, but I’m sure you know more about the matter in general than do I.)

            https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the-darkness/201705/is-autism-really-empathy-disorder

          • Nick Sanders

            There’s a paragraph I feel is a bit too “fluffy clouds”, and I personally think I’m good at “the ability to understand, describe or express one’s emotions”, but mostly it’s pretty accurate.

          • Jack Sprat

            Thanks for expressing that.

          • Who?

            I am going to use my kindest typing fingers here, but how about this:
            *cia lacks empathy
            *the girl is cia’s biological child
            *that biological child has been raised, at close quarters, by cia

            Is is just possible that the apple may not have fallen too far from the tree? Whether you believe in nature or nurture, that ties the girl’s ‘lack of empathy’ up in a pretty bow.

          • shay simmons

            Take everything parker says about her daughter with a heaping tablespoon of salt. She changes her story about as often as ahes does her underwear (as my old first sergeant would say).

          • Chi

            I can only speak for what I’ve observed in my daughter (who admittedly is on the mild end of the spectrum and so not as bad as Cia’s daughter).

            My daughter currently has no problem with RECOGNIZING emotions on people’s faces. Probably because her father and I did our best to make those connections with examples in the movies she was watching, or with her peers at Playcentre.

            I think where the disconnect happens is that while she can recognize a given emotion (happy, sad, angry etc) she currently doesn’t know how to RESPOND. For example, if I see someone who is sad, my instinctive response is to touch them in some way (take their hand, hand on their shoulder, or hug if that’s what they want).

            But because my daughter isn’t good with physical contact with people she’s not really familiar with, it can make it tricky for her to know what to do. But she can learn. So I’ve been trying to teach her responses that are appropriate, but also within her comfort levels to give. So instead of offering a hug, I encourage Alexis to talk to the person and tell them she’s sorry they’re sad, or maybe offer them a toy to help them feel better etc.

            I get so sick of people saying autistic people lack empathy. They DON’T. If anything, in a lot of cases, they feel TOO MUCH and that is what becomes overwhelming. We need to stop writing off their inability to respond/communicate as ‘that’s just how they are’ and figure out what they’re comfortable with and then TEACH them how to respond, but still be comfortable doing so.

            But again, I can only speak from my experience, others might have different experiences from further up the spectrum.

          • Thanks. I hope my kids and I will learn enough not to behave like utter snots toward people with differences and disabilities.

          • Nick Sanders

            From what I know of you and they, you’re doing fine.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            My daughter currently has no problem with RECOGNIZING emotions on people’s faces. Probably because her father and I did our best to make those connections with examples in the movies she was watching, or with her peers at Playcentre.

            It is perfectly possible for a person with autism to learn to recognize emotions in faces by memorization and general learning. But they have to actually be taught to do so. Good for you for doing so with your daughter.

            As for what to do after sadness is recognized, I think you’re taking a good approach there too. Words kind of are the magic doorway into the neurotypical world for people with asperger’s/mild autism.

          • At least homeopathy isn’t harmful like MMS, which is what I’m afraid she’ll resort to when the sympathetic magic doesn’t work. It sounds like she’s working hard to help her daughter be functional, which is good, but I don’t think that ultimately overcomes the harmful attitude that her daughter is this broken thing, or the stupidity of seeking out worthless remedies.

          • kilda

            things that make no sense in your rant above:
            1. no, children with autism don’t have stroke-like brain damage. You know how we know that? Because stroke-like brain damage shows up on CTs and MRIs. You can actually see it. No such findings are seen in kids with autism.
            2. if she can’t understand language, how the heck can she read? and if she can’t communicate, how would you know she can read?

          • ciaparker2

            When she was almost three, she could say Ay, EE, EE, EE, EE, Eh, EE, and I realized she was saying the alphabet without consonants. She also said uh, oo, ee, oh, ay, and so on, counting to twenty without consonants. When I was playing the piano when she was four, she said the name of the song I was playing, and I was surprised, as I had never said it. I turned to another page and she could read that song title too. In our homeschooling, I got the basic reading books for young children, Little bear and Frog and toad, and she could read them all. We then went on the all the Dolch readers, and I helped her on the words she couldn’t read. She could read, but she couldn’t tell you what had happened, or say anything at all about the books. And she wasn’t interested in them. She latched onto certain manias, like Curious George, she liked the images, but could never follow or understand the stories.

            It is common in autistic children to be hyperlexic. I don’t know what it means. But it’s one thing to be able to mechanically read and another to understand what you read.

            OK, she has been diagnosed with aphasia, a language disability, and inability to understand story lines is one of the symptoms. It can be caused by strokes or by autism. It is a form of brain damage. I always say stroke-like, because the structural damage to the language center of the brain is the same. I told her current language therapist (more friendly questions, not grammatical structures) about what we’ve done, and she said my making her just memorize the answers to questions was called error-free learning, and is one of the methods used ot help stroke victims recover the use of language.

          • Jack Sprat

            And here I was thinking she was non-verbal at four years of age. Huh, learned something new.

          • FallsAngel

            The story changes from day to day. This conversation with the doctor just came up recently.

          • Who?

            Like the supplementing (or attempted supplementing) we’re now being told about.

          • MaineJen

            So she reads and responds to stories, but has trouble verbalizing her thoughts. She sounds like a delightful child, regardless. She deserves a mother who is going to meet her where she is, and love her no matter what.

          • Mike Stevens

            She deserves a mother who does not spend $100 a week on chelation and homeopathy remedies for her own “vaccine induced mercury neurotoxicity”.

            She deserves a mother who would have put that money into a Trust fund to guarantee her future.

          • shay simmons

            She deserves a mother who does not think she is irrevocably damaged and will never have any kind of life.

          • Mishimoo

            She deserves a mum who actually cares about her as an individual person and not as an extension-of-self. She deserves a mum who acknowledges her interests and effectively utilises them in the learning process, instead of disregarding them as ‘manias’. She deserves a mum who actively advocates for her well-being instead of using her as a pawn.

          • Claire Secrist

            I truly mourn for that child. Anyone who has has a toxic narcissist for a mother or father knows too well what’s it’s like to be a tool in your parent’s ego games.

          • Kerlyssa

            imagine having your entire life summed up like this by your own mother. jesus. and of course, nothing has changed but the homeopathy, because the daughter is an inanimate lump of clay. holeeeeee shit i am getting flashbacks

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m so, so sorry, for you and Cia’s daughter.

          • kilda

            >>I always say stroke-like, because the structural damage to the language center of the brain is the same.

            but that’s what I’m saying – it is not. I’m sorry, because clearly you wish to believe this, but people with autism don’t have “structural brain damage.” Damage to the language center of the brain would be CLEARLY VISIBLE on an MRI. And you don’t see it in cases of autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            …Typical language processing disorder as found in NRXN-1 gene deletions, which, surprise, surprise, is what you told us your daughter has.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, as you have yourself stated on several occasions, your daughter has a neuronal synapsing defect affecting the speech and language areas of the brain (caused by a Neurexin-1 gene deletion), compounded by a possible peripartum hypoxic brain damage event caused by her having a true knot in the umbilical cord which necessitated emergency C-section but still left her with low Apgar scores after delivery.

            Stop pretending she had neonatal encephalitis. She had none of the diagnostic features, nor any of the requisite tests to confirm the problem.

          • ciaparker2

            You should read Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: Vaccine Encephalitis and Autism. And Dr. Buttram’s Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? And you will see that C’s symptoms were EXACTLY those of vaccine encephalitis.

          • Nick Sanders

            Thank you for reminding me that you defend child killing abusers, I had managed to let that bit of horribleness slip from my mind.

          • MaineJen

            There’s just so much horribleness to choose from, with Cia

          • Mike Stevens

            Why would I read a book by someone who knows nothing about encephalitis, or why read a book written by a quack snake-oil salesman, who again knows nothing about encephalitis?

            “Vaccine encephalitis” is another ridiculous neologism fabricated by you and your antivax cronies.
            They find some symptom, add the word “vaccine induced” in front of it and declare they have defined a new entity.
            Fortunately medical science knows better in this case.

          • FallsAngel

            Yet last summer your daughter had a conversation with her doctor about vaccine injury.

          • ciaparker2

            Conversation? She was obviously worried about it, and spontaneously said Is there mercury or aluminum? That was all. She couldn’t say “in the anesthesia,” and she couldn’t say anything else. I said that there wouldn’t be mercury, but there might possibly be aluminum in something used. The surgeon said he didn’t know, and that was that. You call that a conversation? She said four words. She HAD learned the structure of a question in English because of the ESL work we’ve done.

          • Jack Sprat

            Now why/how would she even have awareness of mercury or aluminium, save for indoctrination! The more that Cia writes the more concerned I am for her child’s physical and mental well being. She has previously stated she has blocked me, if that is in fact the case, can somebody else please bitch-slap her?

          • Who?

            Apparently I’m blocked too, so it won’t be me. That poor girl.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You bitch, Cia. You treat your daughter like some kind of puppet, to be filled with your fears, instead of an autonomous human being who should be treated with respect. That poor young woman. My heart bleeds for her.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Autistic children are language-impaired

            Let’s start with just that phrase. I’m autistic and I’d bet small amounts of money that my verbal SAT score was higher than yours. Not all autism has overt language defects associated with it. It’s called “Asperger syndrome” or “social (pragmatic) communication disorder”. You should have no problem finding it on google.

          • Claire Secrist

            Co-signed.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Ditto. Like my own autistic children, I was an early talker and a fluent reader by the time I was two. Autism is a different way of experiencing the world, and has the same range of abilities in different subjects as allistic people do. Some autistic people have speech and language delays, some are advanced, the majority fall somewhere in the middle, just like everyone else.

            You know what helps autistic kids develop language? Having an empathetic adult in their lives who talks to them with respect.

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            That reminds me of what Mom told me was the main reason why we moved from one town a year after moving there. I’d lost half my hearing in the interregnum and the school wanted to put me in special ed classes. Thing is, at 4 I was already learning to spell. I could write my full 9 letter first name

          • FallsAngel

            At the time kids with attention deficit disorder were called “hyperactive”. In my day, in grade school in the 1950s, they were just called “naughty”.

          • shay simmons

            And were tied to their desks.

            (Anecdote from an in-law).

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ve debunked this serving of dishonest word salad many times before, Cia.
            Your repeating the lies won’t make them true.

          • ciaparker2

            The reader is free to research it for himself. I stand by what I have written.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The reader is free to research it for himself. I stand by what I have written.”

            OK, let’s start with your first claim.
            In 1960, the mortality rate from measles in the US was one in 10,000 cases.
            That is what you think Langmuir stated. But it was only an estimate (and we know how you hate that, don’t we Cia) made by extrapolating data from Atlanta.

            http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.52.Suppl_2.1
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe43dec28fe2879905a0c8100aaa487e5d0f298ee468aa5880e0c98241b3b90e.jpg

            Note that the data are estimates of measles morbidity in Atlanta, then factored by looking at mortality rates overall and deriving a further estimated case fatality rate in the bottom chart.

            Further note that the peak of measles morbidity is in 3 year olds, meaning half the burden is below this and half above.
            Note that the case fatality in under 3 year olds is not 1:10,000 (10 per 100,000) as you claim, but much higher (around 20-30 per 100,000).
            This age related mortality is affecting half of the measles population (under 3 yr olds).

            Claiming the overall case fatality was 1 per 10,000 (10 per 100,000) is (1) a lie,
            (2) an estimate anyway (and you said you don’t trust those).

            Shall I go on with the rest of your wall of disinformation?

          • ciaparker2

            OK, look at the official UK statistics for incidence and death from measles for every years since the War. In the ’80s it was one or two death per 10,000 cases, while Dr. Langmuir had found that for the US in 1960 it was one death per 10,000 overall, but less than one per 10,000 cases in children between three and ten. It was two in 10,000 for two years olds, and as high as four in 10,000 in children in the first year, in whom it was rare because they were protected by placental immunity and breastfeeding.

            http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

            The unavoidable bottom line is that measles had reached its lowest death rate ever by 1950. Measles was VERY beneficial to long term health, and not dangerous in well-nourished, healthy children who were well-nursed. It was a terrible mistake to introduce the measles vaccine.

          • ciaparker2

            I just looked at the UK statistics, for 1960 it says:1960: 159,364 (cases reported)
            31 (deaths)
            That works out to 1.956 deaths per 10,000 cases. What can I say? A little higher than in the US. Still recovering from the War, I guess. And Atlanta was in the heart of the Deep South, where mortality was higher because of the widespread malnutrition.
            But we’re arguing over small differences in reported measles fatalities. Regardless of how you cut it, mortality from measles was very low there as well as here.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Mike Stevens

            Why is it Cia that you think even 2 kids per ten thousand dying from measles is something to be cherished and hoped for if you ever get your wish to “bring back measles”?
            In the USA this would mean you’d kill 600 kids every year. And you call that low mortality?

            You are a repugnant, sick psychopath.

          • Mike Stevens

            “But we’re arguing over small differences in reported measles fatalities.”

            But you keep lying about the “small” differences, Cia.
            Langmuir’s own extrapolations and estimates put the case fatality at around 2 per 10,000.
            So please stop claiming he said the case fatality was one per 10,000, will you?

            “Regardless of how you cut it, mortality from measles was very low there as well as here.”

            You are truly certifiable.
            To have one child die for every 5,000 with the disease is not “very low mortality”, Cia.
            That would be 600 dying each year in the USA.

            Very low mortality is what you see with conditions like autism, or the reactions to vaccines (less than one life-threatening reaction per million vaccine shots.

          • Who?

            Cia’s view is that a few dead folk are a small price to pay for all her feelings being vindicated.

          • joe

            Why don’t you stop spreading misinformation? You have been corrected and proven wrong so many times that it’s laughable. For example, you state that over half of American children have been damaged by vaccines, WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?

          • Kq

            You have to go find it yourself; she doesn’t have time to fritter away on backing up her claims. There are other people she has to call classless shills.

          • tomonthebay

            She stated that? That is absolutely delusional.

          • Claire Secrist

            Oh I forgot you also are ableist and hate people with different abilities or disabilities. You’re certainly a crackerjack piece of rotting sewage, aren’t you?

            The funny thing about this is, you’re completely disabled with some sort of paranoia and delusion rich mental illness, but you think people with autism should be eliminated at all cost. Including if you have to institute murder-by-medical-neglect to get there. Meanwhile tons of people on the spectrum are a lot happier with life than you are.

          • Kerlyssa

            well, unless cystic fibrosis kid died of a vpd, since the lungs are compromised and active management and prevention of lung infections are about the only reason people w CPD live so long these days. /hmm

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Liar, liar, pants-on-fire, Cia.

            No autism? Codswallop. I’m an autistic baby-boomer, married to an autistic baby-boomer. You have the most ridiculously narrow, blinkered memory of school. At that time, only what used to be called ‘low functioning’ autism was diagnosed, and those children weren’t sent to mainstream schools, with the assumption that they wouldn’t be able to cope. The autism rate has always been the same – it’s not our fault that only now are people actively looking for autism, especially now that they realise that autistic girls and women present very differently to autistic boys and men. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was almost fifty. Yes, there were autistic kids at your school, and dyslexic kids, and kids with ADHD. But you are such a narcissist that you wouldn’t have noticed if any of your classmates were struggling.

            Oh, and I knew four children in my school who died of VPDs. I knew deaf and physically disabled children and adults who had been disabled by VPDs. That poor kid with CF who died, almost certainly died of a VPD, not the CF.

          • FallsAngel

            The cancer death rate is decreasing, cia. Rates have risen slightly over the years, with increasing life expectancy.

            The facts have shown no such thing, and I agree with Mike that you are certifiable. I have lost patience with you.

          • ciaparker2

            They counted how many diseases each person had had and how many of them later got cancer. Are you contending that people back then had a different and more accurate method of counting than we have now?

          • momofone

            I’m contending that your ability to comprehend is impaired.

          • Azuran

            Counting didn’t change, but our diagnostic testing sure got a hell of a lot better. So many cancers where probably not properly diagnosed, and therefore not counted, back then.

          • Acleron

            Cancer was also a taboo disease, I don’t know why but it was often not admitted.

          • ciaparker2

            It wasn’t that long ago. Probably is the only word you can use, but have nothing to support it. Most people are not diagnosed with cancer until they realize that they have symptoms. Early screening for breast cancer is no longer recommended for low-risk women. Early screening for prostate cancer isn’t either. Actually thirty years ago MORE women went for routine mammograms and men for prostate screening than do now.

          • Azuran

            Oncology has changed A LOT over the past 20 years. We are definitely better at diagnosing cancer.

          • FallsAngel

            That first study is hilarious. It was done in 1977, meaning the vast, VAST majority of the patients were born before 1957, mean they were immune to measles, mumps, chickenpox and probably rubella by virtue of having had the diseases! Out of 300 women, there were probably no more than 15 (5% who hadn’t had the first 3, and no more than 45 (15%) who hadn’t had rubella. No wonder the numbers are so skewed, the sample size is too small!

            My own daughter had a bad case of flu that turned into pneumonia, and guess what cia? She also had melanoma. Talk about correlation =/= causation!

            In 1997, anyone over 17 years of age US born was presumed immune to chickenpox. The vaccine had only been out for two years at that point. Another FAIL!

            Any adult in 1998 over the age of ~40 (when cancer typically develops) had measles, mumps, chickenpox; about 85% of them had rubella. What a crock!

          • ciaparker2

            The diseases do not reduce cancer risk to zero. But they DO greatly lower risk.

          • Mike Stevens

            Like the vaccines do.

          • FallsAngel

            You’re full of shite.

          • Nick Sanders

            Even if they actually did reduce your chance of cancer, which I doubt, that’s not how cumulative percentage changes work.

          • shay simmons

            I had said 80 but I see that it is 76%.

            And where, exactly, did you see this? Citation needed.

          • Box of Salt

            the citations are in her reply to momofone, and the 76% comes from a Medical Hypotheses paper from 1998. She didn’t post links.

          • MaineJen

            What the hell are you blabbing about? Where are you getting your numbers? WHY SHOULD ANYONE TAKE MEDICAL ADVICE FROM YOU?

      • The Vitaphone Queen

        Classy? YOU?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.

      • Claire Secrist

        So true to your eugenicist rep, to assert one’s level of class is a marker of personal value.

        • ciaparker2

          Yes, it is. And you don’t have it.

          • Claire Secrist

            I don’t care about arbitrarily created class distinctions. You might think you’re upsetting me by saying I have no “class”, but it’s hard to care about that kind of snipe when I don’t think class means anything about a person’s value. You don’t get it because you’re a racist and hate poor people, I know. Poor thing. Can’t shit your way out of a paper bag.

      • Who?

        Yes, dismissing dead babies is classy.

        Talking about people with disabilities as though they are dead is super classy.

        Everyone here knows just how classy you are, and more to the point, what class of person you are.

        • ciaparker2

          As you callously dismiss the MILLIONS of babies brain-damaged for life by vaccines and the THOUSANDS killed by them. Yes, of course everyone recognizes me for what I am, and I am glad that it is so obvious.

          • Who?

            Interventions have risks-no one is saying vaccines are perfect or that no one has ever been injured by a vaccine.

            Your frank callousness towards those who die of vaccine preventable diseases, and your viciousness towards your own child, who you neglected most cruelly if she did really scream piteously for days as a tiny baby, are your story, told in your own words.

          • ciaparker2

            Anyone who wants vaccines can get them. Anyone who doesn’t want them does not have to. It is our human right.

            The suffering caused now in developed countries by vaccines is many times greater then that which would be caused by the VPDs even if no one vaxxed for anything. You are just a shill. I tell people to inform themselves about both the diseases and the vaccines before vaccinating. They are free to act as they like as long as they are well-informed, which very few are.

            Pertussis and measles used to be dangerous diseases, but it has been at least seventy years since they were dangerous in developed countries. All the vaccines can disable or kill. There are two sides to consider.

            What a vile person you are to mention my poor baby. No mention of the doctor who screwed up in several ways, including just brushing it off as colic (which never occurs in the first week). The following week he was shocked at her weight loss, and recommended I stop breastfeeding. I didn’t, and she quickly gained back the weight she had lost during the encephalitic screaming syndrome. No mention of my or my mother holding her constantly the entire time. You don’t care about anyone but your pharma employer.

          • Who?

            She was yours to care for-leaving her to scream (in somoene’s arms or not) for days was abuse.

            You can block me, but I’m still here. Just because you can’t see me doesn’t mean I don’t exist.

          • shay simmons

            What a vile person you are to mention my poor baby.

            Says the poster who drags her daughter into the conversation every. single. time.

          • shay simmons

            Downvoted and flagged for shill accusation.

          • momofone

            Your poor baby? Your baby LIVED, unlike those of a dear friend of mine, whose TWO babies died of pertussis.

          • ciaparker2

            Were they treated with high-dose IV vitamin C? If they had been, they would have lived.
            I did not have hep-B. I didn’t want the vaccine for my baby, and she didn’t need it. It was just for pharma profit, her mind ruined for life for financial gain.

          • Nick Sanders

            How does Vitamin C prevent death by pertussis? I want a mechanism of action.

          • ciaparker2

            Look it up. I’ve got other things to do. You’re just going to contradict every word out of my mouth. I say I gave my baby one bottle a day of Similac, you’re going to say No, you didn’t, you gave her Enfamil.

          • Nick Sanders

            Burden of proof: your claim, your job. I asked you because the suggestion was ludicrous, and without a plausible mechanism, it should be dismissed out of hand.

            Further, I’m not concerned with the particulars of your anecdotes, I’m after verifiable data. As such, I haven’t said a damn thing about your story’s consistency, because it’s irrelevant.

          • Claire Secrist

            In fact, you don’t have anything to do but freak out on multiple websites serviced by disqus. Please don’t insult our ability to read time stamps.

          • momofone

            “I can’t provide a mechanism of action because it doesn’t exist.”

          • MaineJen

            Clearly, you don’t.

          • rosewater1

            You brought your baby into this. You. You can’t take the heat? Stay out of the kitchen.

            Even you have acknowledged that the diseases you refuse to vaccinate against can kill. They could have killed your child. They will likely kill other children.

            And what is your answer to that? To dismiss those who die and sling mud at people on this site who dare to disagree with you.

            Yes, I know, we’re all mean nasty pharma shills. So what does that say about you that you soil yourself by associating with us even in this way?

            You are no better than all the people on this site that you disparage. No. Better.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m discussing encephalitis (autistic) brain damage, so I have to talk about what happened to my daughter. Say what you like, I don’t expect human decency from anyone here.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, what you are doing is lying and refusing to address the many ways you have been proven completely incorrect.

          • rosewater1

            You could have done that without identifying her as your child. No one would have known. But then you couldn’t have written all the righteously indignant words that you’ve spilled all over this site. And you seem to enjoy the attention you are getting. Even though it is almost all negative.

            And as for human decency? I’ve seen precious little of it from you. Your remarks about others-who have brought up illnesses or deaths from vaccine preventable diseases-have been horrid. You clearly see yourself as superior to all of us. Your words say otherwise.

            I’ve been lurking on this site far longer than my comments might indicate. I’ve seen that respectful disagreement doesn’t get the vitriol that you inspire. Why is that, do you think?

            You came here spoiling for a fight. You found it and then some. If you’d come in determined to be adult and polite? Well, you’ll never know.

          • Azuran

            So, your baby cried for days, lost a lot of weight, and your doctor told you to supplement, meaning he believed your baby was not getting enough milk.
            This looks a lot like you had delayed milk production. Much more credible than your self diagnosed vaccine encephalitis.

          • ciaparker2

            My baby nursed lustily for the first few days, but could not nurse for the pain once the reaction had started. She would take one suck, then turn her head away with another scream. When the doctor said I should stop breastfeeding, I DID supplement, but continued breastfeeding. That hadn’t been the problem, as soon as the reaction ended Saturday afternoon, she again nursed lustily and quickly gained back the weight she had lost, and I stopped giving her formula. She nursed very well for years and was very healthy, except for the language and developmental delays caused by the vaccine brain damage.

          • Roadstergal

            You starved her to the point where a pediatrician was ‘shocked’ (your word) at the weight loss. It takes a lot to make a pediatrician express shock. Why did you let her lose weight so drastically before supplementing? Why did you let her scream in hunger when you clearly weren’t making enough milk yet?

          • ciaparker2

            I WAS making a lot of milk, and she drank it from Friday to Tuesday evening. But it is well known that with vaccine encephalitis, the baby is incapable of feeding.

          • Nick Sanders

            The complications of a non-existant syndrome are not well known.

          • Jack Sprat

            Touché

          • ciaparker2
          • Chi

            Oh FFS.

            ANYONE can publish a fucking book Cia. I could publish a book on the conspiracy in the aviation industry, even though I am not a pilot, or engineer or anything and STILL get it published.

            Just because those books are written by cranks who say the things you want to hear does NOT mean they are correct or true, especially when the MAJORITY of established epidemiologists, researchers and GPs in general disagree with that bullshit that vaccines cause shaken baby syndrome.

            Also, yes, there is a SMALL chance that some vaccines CAN cause encephalitis as a side effect. I know that when I had my daughter vaccinated, I got a sheet that told me that if I saw any of the symptoms listed, to bring her back ASAP.

            If you were so SURE that your daughter was having an encephalitic reaction, why did you not PHYSICALLY take her back to the practice/ER and get them to look at her?

            Because you cannot diagnose encephalitis by crying alone. As others have pointed out to you NUMEROUS times, babies cry for a LOT of reasons because that is their only way to communicate. If you’d taken your daughter to the doctor and actually had encephalitis properly diagnosed, I’d have a lot more sympathy for you.

            Instead, what I think is that you’ve read something about encephalitis somewhere on the internet (probably in the hive of scum and villainy known as Age of Autism) and decided THAT’S what it was after the fact and changed your narrative to fit, in order to blame vaccines.

            Having a child with special needs is hard. And heartbreaking. But you need to get the fuck out of the denial stage of grief and start accepting your daughter for who she is. Because do you honestly think hearing she ‘can’t’ do things is healthy for her. You really really really need to STOP focusing on what she ‘can’t’ do, and encourage her in what she can, even if it is only a few things.

            But hey, you’ll probably ignore me and carry on your miserable, bitter way. Take care, I hope you find peace and acceptance someday and actually find how to be happy.

          • ciaparker2

            There is a VERY GOOD chance that any vaccine will cause encephalitis as a side effect. Read the books. Congress thought highly enough of Judy Converse’s horrible experience to invite her to testify at the hep-b vaccine safety hearing in May 1999. But no, YOU know better, and don’t care if every single last child in the WORLD reacts to vaccines with encephalitis, autism, learning and behavioral disabilities, and seizure disorders. No one who benefits from their association with pharma companies gives a damn about the children injured, and so of course they are going to deny the truckloads of scientific evidence and studies.

          • Claire Secrist

            Fact presented to you : Anyone can publish any book about anything, without a single qualification related to the subject matter.

            Your response: REAAAAD THE BOOKS I LIKE

            You know what I don’t get? If you really are onto some kind of medical revelation, why do you spend all of your time commenting in websites? It’s a pretty horrible form of information desemination. I never see you on the news. I never see your works in the paper. I mean, I know it’s because you’re a horrible person and a crank who probably alienates everyone in real life. But surely you think you know why comment sections are your preferred mode of communication.

          • ciaparker2

            Dr. Harold Buttram had no qualifications? Judy Converse was only a hapless, innocent, victimized parent, but she is has a degree in nutrition and was trained to accept all the vaccine propaganda. Till she saw the light the hard way, and was invited to testify before a congressional committee about her experience with vaccine encephalitis, autism, and medical ignorance, greed, and incompetence.
            Blocking you. You know nothing and all you want to do is bully others.

          • Jack Sprat

            Welcome to the club Claire

          • Jack Sprat

            Some time ago I arranged Cia access to a collective of researchers, at her local University. It was set for a non-confrontational social setting for her comfort. Do I need to tell you that she would not take me up on it?

          • Nick Sanders

            No. I am not going to read your swill. To think doctors would confuse encephalitis for blunt force trauma is an insult to the intelligence of every semi-literate person on the planet.

          • So when you followed the doctor’s advice to supplement your baby got better? You’re not exactly contradicting the hypothesis that you were unintentionally starving your baby for several days.

          • ciaparker2

            I never gave her more than one bottle a day. I gave her Similac, but the doctor said to give her Enfamil. I couldn’t imagine that there was any important difference between the two brands, he probably got pharma kickbacks from Enfamil. I gave her one bottle from that time, a week and a half after she was born May 5, until October, the last thing at night, hoping it would make her sleep through the night. It didn’t. She would wake several times a night to nurse, for a long time, and I was glad to do it. To this day, she’s never had an ear infection or diarrhea, and I think it’s from the years of nursing.

            After four weeks I bought and read Dr. William Sears’ The Baby Book, and as soon as I read about co-sleeping, I got up and got her out of her crib next to my bed, and slept with her until she was seven. I also carried her around with me in a sling. I loved the concept of attachment parenting. I produced a lot of milk and she drank avidly, often choking because there was so much milk she couldn’t swallow it.

            My milk came in on Tuesday, the day that the reaction started in the evening. She had nursed avidly for the first few days (born on Friday morning, we went home from the hospital Monday morning, I could have gone home on Sunday, but there wasn’t enough staff to check us out), stopped during the reaction, as I said, she would suck once, then turn her head away to scream again. I held her constantly and was continually trying to tempt her to eat. And once the screaming stopped Saturday afternoon, she nursed avidly again, days before the doctor suggested that I supplement. It wasn’t for lack of milk, it was the horrible pain from her swollen brain as the severe brain damage was unfolding.

          • I’m accepting everything you’re saying here as true, but it still sounds like she went several days without drinking much. I’m sorry no one told you to take her to the ER to be evaluated for severe dehydration and hypoglycemia.

          • Who?

            Cia sought no help for her. But she and her mother greatly inconvenienced themselves by nursing the child the entire time she screamed, so that must count for something.

            The bottle of formula a day that has come to light in the last couple of hours-if it is real-probably saved the child’s life.

          • ciaparker2

            No, it didn’t. My milk had come in Tuesday, and I was producing a lot of milk and after the reaction stopped on Saturday, several days before the one bottle a day of formula started, she was nursing a lot. The doctor was unaware that what he had brushed off as colic (which doesn’t interfere with feeding) was really vaccine encephalitis, because of his negligence.

          • Who?

            For you to effectively block me, you should also exercise sufficient self control to ignore me. As I said yesterday, I don’t stop existing just because you don’t like what I say.

          • Who?

            A couple of hours ago you posted-in response to Azuran:

            My baby nursed lustily for the first few days, but could not nurse for
            the pain once the reaction had started. She would take one suck, then
            turn her head away with another scream. When the doctor said I should
            stop breastfeeding, I DID supplement, but continued breastfeeding. That
            hadn’t been the problem, as soon as the reaction ended Saturday
            afternoon, she again nursed lustily and quickly gained back the weight
            she had lost, and I stopped giving her formula. She nursed very well for
            years and was very healthy, except for the language and developmental
            delays caused by the vaccine brain damage.

            So what was it-formula plus attempted breast during screaming, or formula only after screaming ended?

            Either this account, or the earlier one to Azuran, is factually incorrect, or maybe both are. Not that it matters, except for your already shot credibility.

          • ciaparker2

            I tried to block you, but clicking on your avatar doesn’t bring up a page where I could block you.

            She screamed from Tuesday evening to late Saturday afternoon. She started formula on Tuesday the following week, but just one small bottle a day. She was nursing fine. The doctor didn’t say I should stop breastfeeding until that Tuesday, the week after the reaction. You just don’t know how to read for comprehension. Nowhere did I say that the doctor suggested I give up breastfeeding while the reaction was ongoing.

          • Who?

            You say an awful lot cia, a frank reading of the two items I referred to displays an inconsistency. Perhaps they were different, but in the comments I read, undifferentiated Tuesdays, or perhaps it is just your trumpian need to be always right.

            Others have had the same interpretation as mine, so perhaps your storytelling is at fault.

          • Mike Stevens

            You claimed you never saw a doctor, Cia.
            You said that later on after the event you asked a doctor who rightly said your daughter probably had colic.

            You are changing your story yet again, to make yourself appear less negligent and incompetent than you were.

            In other words, you are lying again…

          • Roadstergal

            She restricted intake for a starving neonate, assuming (wrongly) that the baby was getting enough milk from her. Whether it was delayed production (sounds like it, she was just assuming the kid was getting enough because Breasts Are Perfect And Nacheral) or some other issue, the baby was clearly starving.

            The kid had a rough start to life, and cia made it rougher.

            You know, with as much time as cia parker spends posting walls of text – somewhere, deep down, she knows it. A woman who truly believes this bullshit would just shrug all of our comments off, but she keeps at it. She knows that she starved her baby, but that contradicts her self-image as The Bestest Mom, so she’s massively invested in this narrative.

            When you look into that abyss – when the pediatrician shows you that your baby is starving, dropping weight to a scary degree – you have to make a choice to acknowledge what happened and to try to make up for it, or to construct a narrative that absolves you of blame. And in Trumpian fashion, to over-shoot – to make you the bestest, smartest mom who ever did the best thing for her baby in the face of a Massive Evil Conspiracy.

          • ciaparker2

            Do you guys get thousand dollar bonuses for the most vicious lies you can make up?

          • Jack Sprat

            For no other reason.

          • Roadstergal

            I don’t need to make anything up. You’re the one who told us that you let your baby starve for a week.

          • Acleron

            Why would any company pay anyone to make up lies about Parker or for any antivaxxer?
            Even in their greatest of ‘successes’, bringing injury and death to societies in Minnesota, Italy and Wales …, they make no impact on pharmaceutical companies profits. Any small dip in vaccine profits are vastly outweighed by profits in treating those who suffer their idiocies.

          • Charybdis

            Do you?

          • ciaparker2

            I’m sorry too. I am SO sorry I didn’t take her to the ER. I didn’t know at that time that the constant, inconsolable screaming was the major symptom of vaccine encephalitis. I would have had the absolute best case in the world, the doctor had just come to my hospital room on Saturday morning to apologize for having forgotten to tell them that I had come to his office a month earlier only to ask him not to give her that vaccine, and he had agreed. Dr. Douglas Boudreau if you want to ask him yourself. (I’m assuming you have connections which might override patient confidentiality, but I’ve told Mike I’d give him permission to talk to Dr. Boudreau about it.) I don’t know what would have happened, they never did figure out at the hospital that what happened to Judy Converse’s baby was vaccine encephalitis. But if I had had it on the record, when she was later diagnosed with autism, I would have had the best case in the world. And might have gotten stricter regulations on the use of the vaccine, and might have saved the lives and minds of thousands of children.

            But I didn’t. I didn’t know. The only thing I could think of was colic, which I knew didn’t happen in the first week. I kept calculating to see if maybe she had been born post-term and was really close to three weeks old. I also thought, Wow, I always heard about babies crying all night and keeping their parents up all night. I never knew they meant it so literally. One night, after having been up awake with her for several days and nights with no sleep, I just had to lie down on the bed, with her on my stomach. And I fell asleep. I woke in a panic, thinking Oh, no! She’s on her stomach, she might have died of SIDS! Little did I know that that was the least of my worries, and even when the screaming stopped and she nursed well again, that our problems had only just begun.

            I will wish to my dying breath that I had taken her to the ER. And then sued. But I didn’t.

          • Azuran

            What a ridiculous excuse. According to you, your baby cried endlessly for days and you did nothing. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t know that it was ‘vaccine encephalitis’ (even though it wasn’t) You don’t need to know WHY a newborn is crying endlessly to know that it’s not normal and seek emergency help. I don’t need to know ‘why’ my newborn has a fever to know that it’s an emergency.

            Your baby was hungry. It really sucks and I’m sorry for both of you that you didn’t have the support to realize it was going on. And it’s likely your child would still be autistic anyway, since it’s genetic and not brain damage. You are just trying to blame the vaccine because you can’t take responsibility.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So she was suckling well but then getting frustrated and screaming. Probably because nothing was coming out. You started supplementing and low and behold a few days later she was back to normal, nursing well and gaining weight. Almost as though the formula helped. Probably because she was starving!

          • Who?

            Oh you’ve read it wrong. Apparently the supplementing only happened after the screaming stopped.

            Those goalposts are a positive hazard, all the moving!

          • Azuran

            Funny, my baby did exactly the same thing, nursing extremely well for the first few days, then sucking once then turning her head away to scream. And screaming endlessly for hours.
            Because I had no milk and she was hungry.

            Get over your stupid vaccine brain damage. You made that up.

          • MaineJen

            The *suffering* caused by vaccines in developing countries?
            Fuck. Off.

          • Roadstergal

            Why did you knowingly starve your baby?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Where are these millions of which you speak? Are you seriously claiming that every vaccinated child is ‘brain-damaged’, even though it is obvious that there is nothing wrong with them? Or are you claiming that autism is brain damage, instead of a natural variant in brain-wiring, like being hyper-social is a natural variant?

            “Yes, of course everyone recognizes me for what I am, and I am glad that it is so obvious.”

            I’ve never seen anyone so proud of being a sociopath.

          • FallsAngel

            Actually, that’s the mark of a sociopath.

          • StephanieJR

            With none of the charm. There are serial killers that hold better conversations.

          • Bugsy

            <– Yes.

            When I was a new mom, I was caught up in the fears of vaccines and how they'd harm my son. I kept hearing of thousands and thousands (or in this case, "millions") of vaccine-injured kids. I figured that there obviously must be some truth in it for there to be such extensive concerns on the subject.

            …however, I tried to look at the statement critically, without buying into the echo chambers. While I kept hearing about these kids anecdotally, I didn't know of any personally – nor did I know anyone who knew of anyone whose kids were legitimately diagnosed with a vaccine injury by a medical professional. The more I actually spoke to other parents as well as medical professionals, the more I realized that the hearsay wasn't a part of reality for anyone I knew.

            Acknowledging this discrepancy went a long way in encouraging me to vaccinate. Both my son and his younger brother are 100% full vaccinated, articulate and curious little men…although I will admit that it doesn't mean either of them like getting prodded with a needle!

          • Jack Sprat

            I wish I could hug you!

          • Bugsy

            Awww, thanks!

          • Nick Sanders

            A flaming loon.

          • Who?

            It interests me that, for one so passionate, cia has no perspective at all on how she appears to others. Mostly, when one wants to persuasively make a point, one thinks about one’s audience. Clearly, cia’s audience is not this crowd, so is it the other anti-vaxxers, most of whom drop in then abandon her?

            Or is it the wondering lurker, trying to make a decision about vaccines for their children? Because if it is that group, her coming across as a spit-stained lunatic is quite positive for the future of vaccination.

            We all admire passion-but obsession is not healthy, or good.

          • shay simmons

            Yes, of course everyone recognizes me for what I am,

            A child abuser and a sociopath.

          • Jack Sprat

            As you ignorantly dismiss the billions of lives spared thanks to vaccines. Yes, of coarse everyone recognizes you for what you are; a very sad, lonely woman.

          • tomonthebay

            “MILLIONS of babies brain-damaged for life by vaccines and the THOUSANDS killed by them”?????? That is outright delusional.

          • ciaparker2

            Really? It’s one in 36 damaged with autism by vaccines in the US now, one in ten ADHD, one in six learning disorders, one in twenty seizure disorders, one in nine asthma, one in two allergies (respiratory, food, or skin), one in 200 diabetes, one in ten bowel disease, and many with less common vaccine-derived disabilities. You do the math. Over all the years and countries in which vaccines have been used. Although obviously we now have the highest rates ever due to the 70 doses of vaccines routinely given between birth and 18.

          • tomonthebay

            Except there is no good evidence that vaccines are responsible for any of those things.

          • ciaparker2

            Only pharma-sponsored evidence.

          • tomonthebay

            That is simply not true.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Mike Stevens

            “Only pharma-sponsored evidence.”

            Complete BS Cia. Virtually none of the epidemiological and ecological studies demonstrating no link between vaccines and autism are “pharma-sponsored”.
            Do you even know what the term means?
            Can you define it for us?

            Your knee-jerk reaction, like every antivax whackjob I have ever encountered, is that any study you don’t like you try and smear with the label of being “pharma-sponsored”.

            As an example, could you indicate how you think a study like this one is “pharma-sponsored”?
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25562790

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Fucking bitch. Autism isn’t ‘damage’, it’s a normal neurological variation, and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines, which has been demonstrated by studies of millions of children worldwide.

            Let’s ignore your rectally-sourced figures, and look at the facts. Again. A lot of people with disorders like asthma and allergies are particularly vulnerable to VPDs – now that there are vaccines, they no longer die in infancy from the diseases, hence more survivors. This has been explained to you over and over again – you simply move to another page, or another part of the same page, and reiterate the same ableist garbage. Why do you hate asthmatics and people with epilepsy so much? Why do you hate learning so much? Why do you hate so much?

          • Nick Sanders

            You have yet to back up your numbers.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes it is.
            When you are idiotic enough to believe that every ill known to mankind… cancer, epilepsy, obesity, asthma, autism etc is due to vaccines, then of course you end up thinking vaccines are evil.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Yes, of course everyone recognizes me for what I am”
            Of course everyone recognises you for what you are Cia, …the problem is that you don’t.

        • ciaparker2

          nwmt

          • Who?

            And yet you keep answering me, and this comment, you have responded to twice.

          • FallsAngel

            Too funny. It’ not worth your time when you’re losing the argument.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        My paternal grandmother was killed by tuberculosis when my father was a teen. A few years later, as TB was killing him, his life was saved by those new-fangled antibiotics. A few years after that, when I was born, I was vaccinated and never had to risk catching the disease.

        In what way was my late grandmother, dead in her thirties so she didn’t even get to see her own children grow up, stronger than I am? I’m still alive at sixty, thanks to modern scientific medicine, and virtually certain to see my grandchildren reach adulthood.

        I had all the then-common childhood diseases (as they used to be called) and yet, as I said before, my immune system cannot remember how to make antibodies to pertussis (despite my having caught it three times) and needs regular reminders in the much safer form of vaccines. Guess what? Catching those diseases didn’t stop me getting ovarian cancer (luckily caught at the pre-cancerous stage, unlike my poor aunt and great aunt) asthma, autoimmune disorders, or three different heart disorders, two of which started after getting glandular fever. The other one is a result of my being born with a connective tissue disorder. Oh, and I was born autistic, and don’t think you can blame my autism on that BCG – in the UK, it was generally given to teens, and I am far from being the only autistic person of my generation.

        • Who?

          Tigger, I think you will find you don’t count-for a start, the cancer you got is bound to have been the wrong kind.

          In fact, the only stats in cia’s picture are those she deems vaccine injured-all the rest of us present factors her theory doesn’t account for, therefore, for her theory to be correct, she is compelled to exclude those considerations. And, sadly for her, she has built a life around her theory being correct.

          And yay for seeing your grandchildren grow to adulthood-what a gift!

        • FallsAngel

          cia will come up with something you did wrong to get the ovarian cancer. I’m glad you’re here!

      • FallsAngel

        The cancer protection thing is at best an urban legend (IOW, crock of s***).

        • shay simmons

          There is a small (homeopathically small) bit of fact hiding in that claim*.

          But while the story is dramatic – a 49-year old US woman’s myeloma blood cancer seems to have completely disappeared following treatment – the actual science is a lot more complex than simply injecting her with an armful of measles. A number of the stories implied that the woman had been treated with an extremely high dose of the regular measles vaccine, but we need to be absolutely clear here:

          This treatment did not involve a standard measles vaccine or virus – the researchers used a genetically modified virus, and there’s no evidence that the regular measles or MMR jab can cure, prevent or cause any type of cancer.

          In fact, we’ve been here before – the approach is similar (although different in certain key respects) to the modified HIV-type virus used to successfully treat a young girl with leukaemia. Overblown headlines about her treatment also flew round the social media world before the scientific truth had got its boots on.

          It’s also similar in that this is just one single success story from a very early stage trial, and a lot more work needs to be done to prove that it could be a safe and effective treatment for cancer.

          http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2014/05/16/could-measles-cure-cancer-uh-not-exactly/

          (*and like all facts found in antivaxx proclamations, sitting in a corner and crying from loneliness).

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Wait, what? The anti-vaxxers are using CART therapy to “prove” that “natural” virus infection prevents cancer? That’s…not even wrong. It’s just word salad. I sincerely hope I misunderstood something.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m trying to think of a parallel. Cars get you places, and have a metal shell, and tea tins have a metal shell, ergo you can use a tea tin to get from SF to LA in less than a day?

          • Acleron

            And when you show how this is impossible, they will just redefine ‘get to’.

      • shay simmons

        If measles protects against cancer, parker, why would there be any cancer patients over the age of 60?

        • Daleth

          If measles protects against cancer, parker, why would there be any cancer patients over the age of 60?

          Shay, I think I love you. 🙂

          • shay simmons

            Parker, alas, is not likely to take that inconvenient fact into consideration.

          • Roadstergal

            They all got the wrong type of cancer. Or didn’t eat correctly. Or didn’t get the proper duration and quality of breastmilk. There’s always something they Did Wrong.

          • shay simmons

            Yep. Parker has informed me in the past that my youngest brother became deaf from the measles because my mother didn’t give us the right vitamins.

          • momofone

            I’m sure if he’d had IV vitamin C, his hearing would have been fine. (eye roll)

      • shay simmons

        we vaccine critics are classier than drug pushers

        You and “class” don’t inhabit the same grid square.

        • Box of Salt

          They don’t inhabit the same grid.

          • shay simmons

            Yes, but in my case it’s a handy artillery reference.

      • MaineJen

        Good god, are you still here? Listen, lady, I’m going to need you to stop claiming that Natcheral Diseases protect against cancer, okay? Not only is it demonstrably untrue, but it’s cruel to make a claim like that.

        • joe

          I am living proof that natural disease DO NOT provide protection from cancer.

      • Roadstergal

        Au contraire. I’m fully vaccinated and never had cancer. Therefore, by cia parker logic, vaccines prevent cancer. 🙂

        Actually, from where I’m sitting, vaccines prevent food allergies, asthma, and obesity, and all sorts of other chronic conditions.

        • Mishimoo

          Anecdotal, but the pain and inflammation I experience from my joint issues noticeably decreases for at least a week after a vaccine. It’s awesome!

      • attitude devant

        Ha. I had rubella as a child (this was before the vaccine was available) and still test non-immune. So there.

      • Mike Stevens

        Worth asking again, seeing as how you failed to answer…

        If measles protects against cancer, parker, why would there be any cancer patients over the age of 60?
        [Hat tip to Shay]

        • ciaparker2

          Gee, I’m so glad I blocked him. I guess you probably noticed that the childhood diseases prevented cancer down to, what was it?, 76% of them with over four childhood diseases? Does it say 100%? Let me look again.

          No, it does not. And now that those who had the vaccines rather than the childhood diseases are reaching the age of high cancer risk, we’ll see what the cancer rates do. Presumably go up a lot.

          • shay simmons

            Of course you’re glad you blocked me. You block anyone who backs you into a corner on your taradiddles.

            I wonder how much longer Mike and kilda are going to last.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’d kinda want her to block me, but I also take a rather perverse pleasure in rubbing her face in the evidence, and seeing how far she will go to squirm away from accepting it.

          • Mike Stevens

            According to you the crucial factor in reducing future cancers by a limited degree is experiencing childhood febrile illness.
            You must be pleased then that so many vaccines are given to kids these days, as they will induce a fever in many of them.

            “And now that those who had the vaccines rather than the childhood
            diseases are reaching the age of high cancer risk, we’ll see what the
            cancer rates do. Presumably go up a lot.”

            Which vaccines though, Cia? I mean, we’ve been giving diphtheria, pertussis, polio, smallpox etc for many decades now. There are 70 year olds who had them. I guess we will see cancer rates rising for the last few years…?
            In fact …No.
            As the vaccinated cohorts reach old age, cancer rates will drop, since vaccination reduces cancer.
            Just as the data/evidence says.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6699e8e6d6023a0cbf6775f6962593f32c47fdf30cb58d16e1c19e09cdccb384.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            You didn’t notice the frequent repetition of “childhood diseases”? Sometimes listed as measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, sometimes with pertussis, hep-A, scarlet fever, flu added on? I haven’t seen that anyone has looked at the effects of having diphtheria, polio, meningitis, and tetanus have on long term survival. Also true that in the old days nearly everyone got subclinical immunity to all of them without ever suffering from the clinical disease. But on the other hand, having subclinical measles turns out to greatly increase serious diseases in later life, while a good clinical case prevents them. I’d say we need to do some more studies. However, those we have were just a matter of counting, hard to see how you can gainsay the results.

            I count up the childhood diseases I had every time I read about these studies. Measles, rubella, chickenpox. Just three for sure. How many did you have? For sure measles and chickenpox. Aren’t you glad your children had chickenpox? Although the vaccine isn’t given there anyway, is it? And your son had scarlet fever. Did he have it for at least two days before starting antibiotics?
            We’ll see about the cancer. My parents never had cancer, except for skin cancer. They had several of the childhood diseases. Nor did any of my grandparents have cancer. Just heart attacks and strokes eventually. Also true that I read that mercury-poisoned people don’t get cancer.

          • Kerlyssa

            the effects of tetanus. on long term survival.

            tetanus.

            jesus h, duders, jesus h.

          • momofone

            Maybe someone should study the effects of rabies on long-term survival too. I’ve heard that having it decreases cancer risk tremendously.

          • MaineJen

            Maybe we could start having rabies parties, to make sure all of our children are exposed. Or tetanus parties. What say you, Cia?

          • FallsAngel

            That would be quite the party, with dogs, bats, raccoons, etc biting everyone there!

          • Sounds like one of Bosch’s cheerier paintings.

          • MaineJen

            No one Bosch painted ever got cancer. FACT.

          • FallsAngel

            OK, I was at a lecture this afternoon and as usual, my mind started to wander. I have planned the perfect party.

            Invite 1-2 people each with flu, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, diptheria, pertussis, polio, and meningitis. For HPV, invite the same number of infected people as “guests” that you want to infect. Start with drinks and appetizers. Since people with measles usually feel like heck, and can infect someone within 15 minutes, they may leave at that point. I don’t know how long it takes to infect someone with flu; I’m pretty sure I got it after being exposed to someone at church (who later showed up at the office where I worked) for an hour. Everyone else should stay for the whole party. The polio patients should er, defacate during the party and not clean up too well. Sorry if that’s TMI, it has to be said. Show a movie, and serve lots of beer, wine and other alcoholic beverages to “loosen up” the attendees. Encourage sharing of drinks. After the movie, dim the lights, bring out the blankets, and commence the HPV exposure. Then usher in the rabid animals and encourage the biting. After that, have the attendees walk on a few rusty nails. They won’t even notice the pain after being all bit up.

            Cia can supervise.

            ETA: I forgot hepatitis A and B. For Hep A, just serve some food prepared by someone with the disease. For B, have some needles and syringes, and teach blood drawing, encouraging sharing of the needles. Just mix ’em all up each time, and do 3-4 blood draws.

          • Roadstergal

            My god, can you imagine how radiantly healthy everyone will be afterwards?

          • Charybdis

            I’m thinking that the measles folks can leave even earlier, since the virus lives for two hours in the air after someone infected coughs or sneezes. For Hep B, you can have your choice of sexual contact (double up with the HPV!!) or sharing a needle whilst injecting recreational pharmaceuticals. You could also offer Rotavirus if you were feeling particularly generous.

          • Perfect! Only make it a pool party, because that’ll be easiest for polio transmission.

          • FallsAngel

            Good idea!

            ETA: No showers before swimming.

          • Mike Stevens

            She’s angling for an HPV party for her daughter.

          • Kerlyssa

            Milwaukee Protocol= immortality? It would be irresponsible not to speculate!

          • Yes, well, let’s see how many of the–what is it, 5? 6? survivors ever of rabies develop cancer.

          • Roadstergal

            Even if all of them do, that’s still the overwhelming majority of rabies sufferers who never went on to get cancer. That’s way more effective than those 70%-ish numbers she was pulling out for measles!

          • Nick Sanders

            Funny how all those other diseases spontaneously developed lessened virulence in the early twentieth century, when the one that might benefit the most from doing so didn’t…

            I wonder why that might be?

          • FallsAngel

            You beat me to it!

          • MaineJen

            Effing TETANUS. I can’t.

          • Nick Sanders

            Pictured, a man very excited about how much longer he’s going to live:
            https://image.pbs.org/video-assets/pbs/gross-science/188865/images/mezzanine_920.jpg

          • Charybdis

            Isn’t opisthotonos wonderful?/s

          • ciaparker2

            You shills are really the bottom of the barrel. You will notice that I always recommend that parents give the DT series careful consideration after the age of two years. My father saw a man die of tetanus at his father’s doctor’s office when he was a boy.

            I read in Plotkin and Mortimer’s Vaccines that many, possibly most, unvaccinated people show evidence of immunity to tetanus from subclinical exposure. Take it up with them, why don’t you?

          • Namaste

            Apparently someone forgot to mention my “Shill” status to Merk, because I haven’t gotten a dime. Perhaps you will be kind enough to let them know I’m on their payroll? I have 130 grand in student loans to pay off.

          • Heidi

            I probably reply more on breastfeeding issues and formula. I have yet to receive a dime from Abbott, Mead Johnson or Perrigo. I thought surely by now I’d be making at least 5 figures! All I got was some coupons. Disappointing!

          • Azuran

            Yea, my maternity leave ends next month. As someone who works with vaccines and is therefore a very high level shill with more knowledge of the hidden truth than the average shill, you’d expect I’d be blackmailing big pharma to keep paying me to stay home with my kid.

          • MaineJen

            “I always recommend” YOU don’t get to recommend anything. Your opinions are worth less than nothing.

          • momofone

            What qualifies you to recommend anything?

          • Empress of the Iguana People

            Her anger and attitude?
            I recommend listening to your (genuine) doctors, unless Mehmet Oz is one of them. I can, however, recommend a nice sock yarn or sweater yarn or quilting fabric brand or pattern company.

          • sabelmouse

            and many cases of tetanus occur in the vaccinated.

          • Claire Secrist

            How many times have people tried to explain to you what rates are? It’s just willful idiocy at this point. This comment is so stupid, that people need no other information to determine you’re a lost cause idiot.

          • Jack Sprat

            Beat me to it, but so much better crafted than my response.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I agree with Jack Sprat – I spent half an hour metaphorically banging my head on the keyboard and sitting on my hands so that I wouldn’t type what I really, really wanted to say.

            Thank you so much for your polite response, so my rude one is redundant.

          • Someone recently upvoted a months-old comment of mine in which I expressed incredulity that someone could think that 1.5 per 1,000 is LESS than 71% of 2 per 100,000. In fact, the commenter accused me of being poor at math! Mind you, I found calculus hard, but rates and absolute vs. relative percentages are not difficult concepts.

          • sabelmouse

            do i know you? it’s stupid to ask how often a so called vpd occurs in the vaccinated? why is that?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You do realise that this comment illustrates nicely what Claire Secrist says?

            You don’t understand rates.

            Let’s take one hundred and ten children; 100 vaccinated against a particular disease, 10 not. There is an outbreak. Eighteen vaccinated children go down with a mild form of the disease, nine unvaccinated children get the full-blown disease.

            You would no doubt claim that the vaccine didn’t work because twice as many vaccinated children caught the disease, whereas what really happened was that 90% of the unvaccinated kids got a bad dose of it and only 18% of the vaccinated ones merely got a mild version. And that is what tends to happen even to someone like me, whose immune system is dodgy and doesn’t manage to get full immunity to some diseases. A person with lowered immunity is going to be protected from getting the full-blown disease, if we catch it at all – which is very unlikely if almost everyone around us is vaccinated.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s probably too complicated of math for her.

          • sabelmouse

            vaccine still don’t work as advertised.
            and pretty selfish of you to demand others take risks for you.
            vaccinate yourself all you like, i’d rater take my chances and just came through the aussie flu ok despite my chronic health issues.
            not that it was pleasant.

          • Who?

            So let’s get this straight-you weren’t vaccinated against the flu, and you got the flu. No surprises there. It made you really sick, no surprises there. You probably passed it on to others, perhaps even others who were really at risk from it ie the elderly, the pregnant, the immune compromised. Unfortunately, no surprises there either.

            Aren’t you a big damn hero. Let me scramble around and find a bravery award for you.

          • sabelmouse

            i am elderly. and chronically ill.
            sure, a 10% working flu shot would have helped all those, especially those who’s immune system was compromised by previous flu shots.
            of course i stayed home, unlike so many people.

          • Mike Stevens

            And did you stay home during the incubation period, when you were infectious to others but asymptomatic?
            …Naw.

          • Who?

            And since she is elderly her social and contact networks are likely to be those most at risk from the flu. Lovely.

          • Azuran

            Actually, it’s pretty selfish of YOU to not want to take on an incredibly ridiculously slim risk for other, more vulnerable people.
            If your actions only put you at risks, we wouldn’t give a damn, but as it turns out, if you get the flu, you might give it to a baby or an elderly, or someone with a weakened immune system and kill them.

          • Claire Secrist

            I’ve had fun snarking at you before. I just tend to forget my disqus log ins and end up making new ones. Unlike you and cia, I have things occupying my time besides disqus. So you do know me. Anyway, thanks for trying to distract from your issue with understanding rates. Hilariously immature and transparent as always.

          • sabelmouse

            who’s regularly posting on skeptical castle? not me.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “who’s regularly posting on skeptical castle? not me.”

            Let’s do a quick fact-check, shall we?

            Frequented Communities:
            AlterNet
            Patch
            Ethics
            The Skeptical OB
            Resilience

            … …

            Oops.. lying in plain sight..

          • Roadstergal

            Most car crashes involve sober drivers. Therefore, sabel always drinks before driving.

          • Heidi

            I think she’s guilty of taking a few nips while internettin’ too.

          • Nick Sanders

            I was wondering when you were going to chime in with something stupid.

          • shay simmons

            Yes — let’s all stop wearing seatbelts because half of all drivers wearing seatbelts get injured anyway.

          • FallsAngel

            That is an outright lie. file:///C:/Users/home/Downloads/p4220(4).pdf
            “Almost all cases of tetanus are in people who have never been vaccinated, or who completed their childhood series, but did not have a booster dose in the preceding 10 years.”

          • Mike Stevens

            “and many cases of tetanus occur in the vaccinated.”
            Citation required, as well as a definition of “many”.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I always recommend that parents give the DT series careful consideration after the age of two years.”

            I am sure there is a massive audience, waiting with bated breath and hanging on every word, just to see what medical recommendations Professor Parker, Spanish translator and grade 9 biology pupil, will come up with next.

            “I read in Plotkin and Mortimer’s Vaccines that many, possibly most, unvaccinated people show evidence of immunity to tetanus from subclinical exposure.”

            Nope….
            What they likely stated was that you could find evidence of prior exposure which was later detectable through measureable antibodies.
            But here is the thing.. Antibodies to naturally acquired tetanus are NOT PROTECTIVE against subsequent infection or clinical disease. They do not prevent toxin formation and release. This is why you always vaccinate people against tetanus after the event if you ever see a case (we saw lots in Africa) and the reason for that is that you want to stimulate the production of anti-toxin antibodies, which WILL protect against clinical tetanus disease.
            Which is why the vaccine is a “toxoid” vaccine, like the diphtheria one (to counter the effects of toxin).

            Tetanus is another example of a disease where natural infection provides NO immunity, yet vaccines will.

            A few years ago I helped run a multinational, multicentre study of C. difficile toxoid vaccine in our NHS Trust, designed to lessen or eliminate the toxin formation if someone got C. difficile infection. The results weren’t great (and no, Pharma have not lied about the results and produced a lucrative vaccine which would not work…which is what you assume always happens with vaccine trials, don’t you?)
            https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01887912

          • ciaparker2

            OK, this is what they stated. Second edition, p. 63, in the chapter of tetanus. “Debate continues over whether humans can develop antitoxin against tetanus in the absence of vaccination or disease. ..Studies in the developing world and some developed nations using other generally acceptable assay (e.g., enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and passive hemagglutination) have shown substantial proportions of some reportedly unimmunized populations in Brazil, China, Ethiopia, Indian, Italy, Israel, Spain, and the USSR with detectable levels of antitoxin. (There are many footnotes included here and elsewhere.) Specifically, up to 80% of persons in India and up to 95% of persons in a group of Ethiopian refugees had levels of antitoxin suggestive of protection. Such studies have been criticized because the absence of vaccination cannot be completely ensured and because of the assays used. ..Testing methods may not be specific at low levels of detection. Nonetheless, this information suggests that at least in some areas of the developing world, asymptomatic colonization – presumably of the intestine – or infection with C. tetani occurs, leading to the production of antitoxin. In the developed world, this phenomenon has not been adequately studies. Serosurveys in the US have found 25% or more of reportedly unimmunized individuals to have circulating antitoxin, although negative immunization histories are perhaps more likely to be unreliable. Overall, even if natural immunity occurs in some populations, it cannot be relied on to control tetanus.”

            IN other words, many unvaccinated people have been shown to have circulating tetanus antitoxin which IS protective against tetanus. 80 – 95% in unvaccinated populations, to be exact.

            I would say a little humility would be appropriate here, Dr. -. And my audience would probably trust my recommendations more than yours, as I can back them up with my well-informed judgment completely unrelated to pharma promotion. In this case, good wound cleansing is the most important measure, and has prevented many cases of tetanus, but about half of tetanus cases are from things like splinters, or even from unknown injuries. Since it is so terrible a disease, often fatal even now with the best of hospital care, and always possible. I don’t like it when people say well, tetanus was declining even before the vaccine. That’s really not true, and it has disappeared because nearly everyone has gotten the vaccine series as a child, and the protection usually lasts at least forty years, much longer than the ten they say. Even though there aren’t many horses around anymore, there are still many mammals which can carry it, and the spores survive in the soil for decades, can be blown by the wind nearly everywhere. The vaccine has produced severe reactions, even death, and is not always effective, but it nearly always is. I think if all a two-year old got (not earlier) was the DT series, he would be unlikely to react adversely to it or develop autoimmune disease as a result. So even though most unimmunized people in virgin populations at least have protection from tetanus, as Plotkin and Mortimer say, it is not a certain phenomenon. However, those who want to refuse the vaccine are, of course, free to do so, and it is unlikely that they will get tetanus.

          • Nick Sanders

            Overall, even if natural immunity occurs in some populations, it cannot be relied on to control tetanus.

          • Who?

            That, Nick, is the money shot.

            cia really is a menace, I hope her ‘audience’ is small.

            And as for her calling for others to show humility, I may throw up into my own scorn.

          • ciaparker2

            Can you not read? I said, above: “So even though most unimmunized people in virgin populations at least have protection from tetanus, as Plotkin and Mortimer say, it is not a certain phenomenon.” Did you not understand what I said?

            Most people in such populations are protected. Not all. Those for whom certain protection is important should be vaccinated. Did you not see my lengthy explanation of why I think that in most cases I would recommend that parents seriously consider the DT series for children older than two years old?

          • Nick Sanders

            https://medium.com/the-method/tetanus-once-a-vaccination-success-story-now-making-a-comeback-c789063c3dc7

            Birth and delivery is a particularly dangerous time for women and infants as there are ALWAYS open wounds (cutting the umbilical cord for example, or the dreaded episiotomy or tear between the vagina and anus) and fecal contamination occurs frequently, unsanitary and unhygienic conditions occur in many places women deliver babies around the world!

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/child/tetanus-indepth-color.pdf

            The World Health Organization estimates that 58,000 newborns died of tetanus in 2010.

          • Mike Stevens

            Ok, so serosurveys have detected antitoxin in various populations.
            For once I will grant you that I was unaware of any significant data showing this (I don’t know as much about all aspects of infection as the authors of reference texts on it do), and I am quite capable of admitting that. I am sure if you scoured the books you’d find something else I didn’t know.

            Let me point out at this juncture that you could do with a dose of eating humble pie yourself, Cia, seeing as how you claimed to know more about infections such as Hep B as the CDC, WHO and AMA put together, and know more about MS than any neurologist, but refuse to back down even when shown you are wrong.

            But those tetanus data come with the caveat that the authors are unsure how many of the sampled population may have been vaccinated in order to get that immunity (a rather relevant point, no?), and they conclude: “Overall, even if natural immunity occurs in some populations, it cannot be relied on to control tetanus.”

            So, in true Cia Parker fashion, you have plucked out only the information that accords with your own ideas, and ignored their primary message about natural tetanus immunity, and you claim :“those who want to refuse the vaccine are, of course, free to do so, and it is unlikely that they will get tetanus.” …Well, it is not unlikely if they actually do get infected with Tetanus bacteria…

            By the way, I am surprised to find yet another example of you saying the presence of antibody in a sample survey is evidence that people have had the infection. Recall how you denied this when we spoke about Hep B core antibody?

          • ciaparker2

            I believe what I believe, but you also know that when I realize that I have been mistaken, I also freely admit it. In the areas you mentioned, I do not believe that I am wrong.

            So we’re back to whether scientific studies done thirty years ago were reliable then or now. I think it is a ridiculous, hubristic claim to make that we are so much smarter now, with much more sophisticated instruments in absolutely every realm of knowledge, that everything scientists discovered over hundreds of years is rubbish thanks to our new-found sophistication. If circulating tetanus antitoxin was found in unvaccinated populations as attested in the dozens of footnotes to myriad studies thirty years ago, then it simply cannot be said that this is wholly inapplicable to facts on the ground today. Just as it is ridiculous to assert (although I understand that the pharma-sponsored crowd has to try to say it), that the many studies showing how beneficial natural measles and, to a lesser degree, all the other febrile illnesses, are for long-term health), are trash for us moderns now.

            In your heart you know how corrupted the CDC, WHO, and AMA have become, how joined at the hip they are to vaccine companies. And, that being the case, it is necessary to examine carefully every claim they make which protects pharma interests. Of course much of what they say is true, but if it has an angle of financial profit for them, then that is the view they will go to all ends to promote. Contemptible, often criminal, but there you go.

            And I recognized at the end of my comment that the natural immunity cannot be relied on to prevent tetanus. That’s why I said that it must be left to the choice of the people involved who are as fully and honestly informed as possible. I would CERTAINLY tell them about the man my father saw die in agony of tetanus in his father’s doctor’s office on the banks of the Mississippi in Louisiana (more tetanus in the deep south). I would CERTAINLY tell them about the newborn you described dying of tetanus, and would CERTAINLY tell them it was an extremely bad practice to put cow dung on the umbilical stump, a recipe for causing tetanus and an agonizing death. But I would ALSO tell them the percentage of people in these studies, and, if possible, in their particular community, who had natural immunity to tetanus. And I would tell them of the cases in which a vaccine containing tetanus had caused anaphylaxis and death or death or disability from other adverse reactions. I believe that the tetanus vaccine (without mercury) (can you tell me how to bold with html? I tried cutting and pasting your bold into a comment to see if writing in the middle of it would make it bold and I could erase the rest, but it didn’t replicate in bold to start with), is usually very safe and effective in preventing tetanus. But wow, having finished Moskowitz’ book and starting to look at (it’s too dense to read straight through) Vaccines and Autoimmunity, I am more aware than ever of how dangerous and unpredictable it is to give anyone any vaccine, and how the effects can play out, building on each other, over a lifetime. There are pros and cons. It is not that vaccines are good, harmless, safe, effective, so get all of them! And helpless, illiterate people in Third World countries have as much a right to accurate information as we do, and the dignity to be given a choice based on their experience and what they learn.
            No, I don’t recall saying that the presence of antibody in a sample survey did not show that they had had the infection. I believe I said that the sample was not honestly chosen, being purposely flooded with older teens who had started IV drug use and unsafe sex, and adopted children from Southeast Asian countries with a high prevalence of hep-B in children. The only study of confirmed hep-B based on serostudies showed that less than one child under ten years old in 100,000 had hep-B, or 360 a year. If there are any studies showing how many of them died of it, it would be of interest to me.
            As for the uncertainty as to whether the people with natural immunity to tetanus had been vaccinated, I can only say that a study of people who definitely had NOT been vaccinated would be of great interest. Maybe in Taliban country, although I would not have the scientific curiosity to venture there. Or maybe there are still virgin populations in the Amazon region.

            And no, I haven’t pored over texts looking for something you don’t know. When was it that I told you that they had said that brachial plexus neuropathy could start the same day as vaccination? Maybe two years ago? I could look on Amazon to see when I bought Vaccines. At the time I found that passage, I looked at the rest of their article on tetanus and saw what I put up last night about natural immunity to tetanus. It wasn’t until yesterday that it came up as a topic under discussion, and I remembered what I had read, and I got out Vaccines last night and looked for it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, this is a perfect example showing that you are nothing but a thoroughly dishonest and deliberately deceitful whackjob.
            But thank you for showing “your audience” that you are totally impervious to facts, evidence and reason.

            To recap, you claimed that unvaccinated people were immune to tetanus through natural exposure, citing a well respected major text on vaccination, Plotkin and Mortimer’s book called “Vaccines”.

            I called you out, suggesting you probably misinterpreted what they said, because there is no natural immunity to tetanus, and that this text dated from 1988, the 2nd edition of their book.

            You then cited the text, which pointed out there was a debate about this and which indicated that varied populations across the globe had antibodies to tetanus toxin indicating possible natural exposure, and immunity. You told me I should be “humble”, and crowed about my lack of knowledge, obviously delighted that you had finally found what you thought was a slam dunk moment where you had exposed my lack of knowledge on vaccines.

            I replied that I might indeed have been wrong, and was suitably humbled, but said I’d have to check for myself. Having done so, I went and checked the latest edition of their book (7th edition) which has been updated to explain that the previous idea that one could now get natural immunity to tetanus was discredited, and they went on to explain exactly why (the main reason being that previously measured levels of antibody (using old assay techniques) turned out not to be protective, and the levels recorded were equivalent to that seen with non specific binding, in other words they were “false positives”).

            Simply put, the authors confirmed that there is no naturally acquired immunity to tetanus (just exactly like I said).

            So, instead of showing a degree of humility yourself, having had the tables completely turned on you, what do you do?
            You double down on your shameless dishonesty, say that you only believe the comments written 30 years ago, and insist that the recent evidence is unreliable.
            You are quite something, you know…

          • Acleron

            ‘levels of antitoxin suggestive of protection.’

            in ParkerWorld becomes

            ‘circulating tetanus antitoxin which IS protective against tetanus’

          • Bored Now

            IN other words, many unvaccinated people have been shown to have circulating tetanus antitoxin which IS protective against tetanus.

            Nope. Your source says that it’s suggestive of protection. “suggestive” is one of the weakest words you could use in a scientific context.

            my recommendations

            Why? What possible way do you have to talk about the statistical likelihood of various negative outcomes? If you can’t, what good are your recommendations generally speaking?

          • FallsAngel

            Thank you, thank you, thank you, Bored Now for saying that. You’ve joined the choir. cia has absolutely NO health care background, which is obvious from her posts. Here, she thinks the only way one gets tetanus is by being around animals, particularly horses. That would be funny if it weren’t so dangerous.

          • Bored Now

            No worries. I’m not a health care professional of any kind so I don’t give health care advice either. 🙂 All I can do is point out when statistical evidence is strong or not. Cia can’t do either of those things. If she really does advise people, she is being negligent.

          • FallsAngel

            We’ve told her that before, too. Keep saying it. Maybe some day it will sink in. At a minimum, the lurkers need to hear it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Hope Judith got her booster….

          • Mike Stevens

            No, Cia. That is what the 2nd edition of the book 1988 edition stated.

            Here is what the latest (7th) edition of the book states:

            Natural Immunity.
            There has been debate over whether humans can develop
            circulating antibody against tetanus in the absence of vaccination, an idea that is now considered discredited.413 In the era before active immunization and standardization of the neutralization test, humans colonized with C. tetani were rarely and inconsistently found to have antibodies to toxin and other C. tetani antigens.81 84 86 88 The majority of subsequent studies purporting to show “natural immunity” did not use an in vivo toxin neutralization assay, the definitive method of testing for biologically active antibody that correlates with clinical protection (see “ Assessment of Immune Responses ” later).
            Rather, using in vitro assays (e.g., enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay [ELISA] and passive hemagglutination), often with inappropriately low immunity thresholds, investigators reported that substantial proportions of allegedly unimmunized populations in Brazil, China, Ethiopia, India, Italy, Israel, Spain, the former Soviet Union republics, and the United States had detectable levels of antitoxin.394 395 396 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 However, in most of these studies, detected antibody levels were 0.01 IU/mL or less, far too low to be distinguishable from nonspecific binding. “Naturally immunized” subjects failed to demonstrate the rapid rise in antitoxin characteristic of an anamnestic or “booster” response in the first week after administration of high-dosage TT (100 or 250 limit of flocculation [Lf]) in the one study assessing immunologic memory.415 Also, the prevalence of seropositive people in these studies did not increase with increasing age as would be expected from a theoretically cumulative exposure.413 414 Finally, vaccination histories were not confirmed and may have been inaccurate.395 396 413 421

            In case you think I am making it up, here is a screenshot of the article below.

            Now, will you admit YOU were wrong?
            In your own words…. I would say a little humility would be appropriate here, Cia.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c8343e990bf92fd911cfec81db3a0867ef84e079e902f0bbc8331fc357c17a0.jpg

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t you know? Old information can never be supplanted, new data is just a trick to make you think Big Pharma isn’t killing us all.

          • ciaparker2

            Mike, look who has joined Stanley and Plotkin in the revision of the seventh edition of Vaccines:

            Plotkin’s Vaccines, 7e Jun 20, 2017

            by Stanley A. Plotkin MD, Walter Orenstein MD DSc (HON), Paul A. Offit MD and Kathryn M. Edwards MD

            I would have bolded the Offit part, but, as you say, I don’t know how to do it. But I know he is a lying pharma shill, and nothing he says can be believed. He concocted a spiel to try to discredit the truth described in earlier editions.

          • kilda

            gotta love it. So the 2nd edition is gospel truth and the 7th edition of the very same book is pharma propaganda.

          • ciaparker2

            You, of all people, should be well aware of the pharma corruption which became universally invasive around 1990 (the vaccine and autism epidemics exploded simultaneously and not coincidentally at that time). The second edition was from the days of medical and scientific honesty (1988), the seventh from the days of pervasive corruption and lies focused only on selling vaccines and other pharma products.

          • Roadstergal

            Ah, 1988. The days of medical and scientific honesty. Halcyon days, we all remember them well, before all of the scientists became Evilfied.

            So you trust vaccine science and the vaccines that were developed – prior to 1988?

          • ciaparker2

            No. I said science and scientists were more honest before the Vaccine/Autism Epidemic, and the freedom from liability for vaccine injury post-1987. The vaccines were still dangerous. Most of the gruesome brain injuries and deaths caused by the DPT were before 1988. All the SV49 cancer cases originated in polio vaccine contaminated before 1988. All the children (and adults) maimed or killed by the smallpox vaccine occurred before 1988. MMR caused a lot of disability pre-1988. But these bad tidings came as a shock to those responsible for them, a big surprise. And even then, come to think of it, there was a lot of chicanery and corruption. All I can ultimately say is that post-1988 you really can’t believe much of anything that vaccine scientists say.

          • Roadstergal

            You said it was the days of “Medical And Scientific Honesty.” So you believe statements of scientists and conclusions drawn pre-1988 are fundamentally reliable?

          • Mike Stevens

            You can always tell when Cia is lying…
            …Words appear on your screen.

          • Acleron

            Parker is unable to argue that she misrepresented the 2nd edition or unable to rebut the facts in the seventh edition falls back on the only argument the antivaxxers know. ‘He/she/it is a shill’ pathetic.

          • Mike Stevens

            And, Cia, hoisted on her own petard, desperately uses the “I saw the word Offit somewhere so this has to be wrong” ploy, only for it to backfire spectacularly…

            Who wrote the tetanus chapter, Cia?
            Hint… 5 respected authors, none of them Paul Offit.

          • Nick Sanders

            Can I call it or what?

          • ciaparker2

            Just found this. Could you look up the study referenced? The really important question is how many people with natural antitoxin ever developed tetanus or diphtheria. It’s also true that there are many people without antibodies who are yet immune to certain diseases, having non-antibody-based immunity. Offit, of course, is a congenital liar. I would like to see proof that the levels of antitoxin which he claims are too low to be protective are REALLY too low to be protective, as in they had them but got tetanus anyway. And it was NOT rare: it was 80% in India and 95% in Ethiopian refugees, the majority. Why did Plotkin and Mortimer in the days before pharma corruption really took off around 1990 give the evidence in Vaccines that many unvaxxed people seemed to have natural circulating antitoxin at levels they believed to be protective? What were the levels of tetanus occurring in these unvaccinated groups?

            “Then there was the study in JAMA Nov 19, 1982, Volume 248, No 19, in which a large number of the unvaccinated Amish showed serological evidence of immunity to both diphtheria and tetanus.

            (Incidentally, the same was thought about rabies (that there is no natural immunity), until a recent study showed that in Alaskan trappers who had never had any vaccine, they too had antibodies. Poof goes that theory)”

          • Nick Sanders
          • Acleron

            Lol, she still lies about it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia.
            In the 1980s, when these studies were done using what are now considered to be inappropriate assays, one million babies died from neonatal tetanus each year.

            Got that?
            ONE MILLION.

            Why do babies get neonatal tetanus? …because they do not get protective antibodies from their mothers during pregnancy.

            You would have us believe that most people (which would include women) have protective levels of antitoxin antibodies, acquired from natural exposure.

            Please think for one moment… try, really try…
            If most mothers are immune, why did millions of babies get tetanus and one million die every year?

            The mothers weren’t immune, of course. God you are as thick as pigshit.

          • Nick Sanders

            But it was down to an estimated 58K in 2010, so the disease must have sensed it was killing too many people and decided to reduce it’s virulence! It’s the only explanation that fits my worldview! /s

          • ciaparker2

            Tetanus protection was age-dependent, becoming much more adequate with increasing age. Why are you falling apart at being challenged? I have said only that parents must be completely informed before making the vaccine decision. It looks as though a large percentage of unvaccinated people in the Third World have tetanus immunity from natural exposure. Why is that so threatening? It remains true that babies who have dung smeared on their umbilical stumps are at high risk of tetanus. I do not deny it.

            I don’t know why mothers don’t give their own immunity to their babies. They don’t protect babies from pertussis either, I assume because original antigenic sin prevents them from getting transferable immunity from their vaccines. I don’t know what would be the reason in the case of tetanus. But truth is truth, and it is worth seeking. In this study, using very sensitive instrumentation for measuring tetanus natural antitoxin, over 98% of the subjects had some, 30% had over 0.001, the level considered protective. Two small girls and one adult did not. The older the subjects, the higher their level of immunity. I make no recommendations as to what should be done with this information, but it is interesting and surprising, since the general belief has been that natural immunity is not possible. You have no right to insult me because you would rather that what is true not be true.

            “We believe our data contribute much needed information

            about the prevalence of immunity and the age at which

            immunity is acquired, since we had the opportunity to study

            a larger population and use the very sensitive ELISA

            technique. We could better identify the population that

            might have been thought to lack antibodies if different, less

            sensitive techniques were used. We found that over 98% of

            our study group had measurable antibodies. In only three

            subjects were no antibodies demonstrated. Two of these

            were females less than 2 years of age, and the third was a

            30-year-old male. Increasing titers were noted with greater

            age.

            Although only 30% exhibited more than the accepted

            protective titer of 0.01 IU/ml (7), the percentage of those

            considered protected was age dependent, increasing substantially

            from 10% in the first decade to an average of 29% in the

            11- to 60-year-old group to 63% in the group over 60 years of

            age. Natural immunity to tetanus is gained, as in many other

            diseases, through adequate, repeated, and prolonged antigenic

            stimulation that sensitizes the immune system. The

            opportunities for achieving immunity increase with age, and

            this is well reflected in our data. It may be hypothesized that

            repeated exposure over many years to the tetanus bacilli

            (perhaps by growth of the bacilli in the tissue or by colonization

            of the digestive system), with relatively small amounts

            of toxin produced, may ultimately both immunize and provide

            a booster to the individual. Since the tetanus bacilli are

            ubiquitous, it is not unexpected that in primitive cultures

            where women and men perform agricultural tasks resulting

            in repeated exposure to soil, the tetanus immunity is not sex

            dependent.”

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC261948/pdf/iai00115-0275.pdf

          • Nick Sanders

            Average of 30% until you are over 60? Fuck that nonsense; even if there is natural protection, it clearly sucks.

          • Who?

            And I wouldn’t have thought 63% is great odds anyway, given the seriousness of the illness.

          • ciaparker2

            Truth is, once again, truth. I have made no prescription but that everyone involved has a right to know the truth. In one study 95% of Ethiopian refugees were shown to have natural tetanus protection. That is not negligible. I recognize that babies are in danger from tetanus, but ONLY if they have cow dung with tetanus spores rubbed onto their open umbilical stump. The solution to that one is simple. Do NOT rub tetanus spores into a child’s open wound. Or use unsterile scissors to cut the umbilical cord.

            The tetanus shot is usually safe, but not always. It has killed outright or disabled in a number of cases. I got a tetanus booster when I was nineteen which paralyzed both arms starting the same day for several days, brachial plexus neuropathy, probably, but not certainly, from the mercury in the vaccine added to all the vaccine mercury I had already gotten and stored in my brain. And it caused my sometimes paralyzing multiple sclerosis. For me and those like me, it is a BAD idea just to waltz in and casually ask for a tetanus booster. Mercury is no longer used in more than trace amounts in current tetanus boosters in the US (probably). It is probably still used in the full amount in tetanus vaccines given in Africa. Everyone should be informed of all the facts which we currently know before taking any vaccine and be allowed to make a choice.
            It is criminal MALFEASANCE if you do not tell prospective vaccines all the facts before giving them the vaccine.

          • Nick Sanders

            Truth is that DTaP causes none of those things, not a single one.

          • ciaparker2

            From Vaxtruth:

            “This is about deception.

            As I was reading the comments following the article referenced above, one commenter made the claim that there is no “credible” evidence that the DTap causes brain damage. (NB: And Nick Sanders wasn’t around at that time, but his fellow —s were.)

            WHAT??? That’s a big fat load of…. well, you know.

            So, I did what I always do when people claim the DTap is safe and effective. I hopped on over to the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health’s list of vaccine manufacturer’s inserts. My intention was to respond to Mr. Uniformed (or more likely, Mr. vaccine manufacturer employee) with the link to the Tripedia insert and a very pointed comment about the fact that on page 11 of said insert, Sanofi Pasteur themselves listed encephalopathy, seizures, SIDS and autism among the adverse reactions that were temporally associated with the administration of the vaccine. The Tripedia insert states that these adverse reactions were included “because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.”

            Well… Guess what?

            When I got to the webpage, the Tripedia insert was gone. POOF!

            Like it never existed.

            Thankfully, I have some pretty awesome friends who are old hats at researching the truth about vaccines. One of them (I love you, Dawn H.) had the foresight to take a screenshot of page 11 of the Tripedia insert.

            In this instance, it actually would have been okay if Dawn didn’t have the screenshot, because I have the insert printed out; as I’m sure many of my vaccine-saavy friends have also done.

            Page 11 of the Tripedia Vaccine Insert from Sanofi-Pasteur.

            The point of this post is this: When you are conducting your research regarding the safety and efficacy of vaccines, you need to be sure you have that information archived somewhere.

            You never know when it will disappear. Like it never existed in the first place.

            My question: So, Sanofi Pasteur… now that you’ve made the insert go away, does that mean all those children who died from SIDS or who have lifelong brain damage as a result of your vaccine also disappeared?

            Of course they didn’t. The proof is in their grieving parents.

            Shame on you. And shame on all of those who work so hard to make the evidence disappear so parents won’t have the information they need to make informed decisions about whether or not to use your products.

            Parents: Do your research. Save the evidence. Trust No One.

            NOTE: Within minutes of posting this article, I was directed to this link, which still lists SIDS, Encephalopathy, and autism among the reported adverse reactions to Tripedia. Please SAVE this informaion – screenshot it – or print it out. You don’t know when it will be gone.

            NOTE: This is another site where the Tripedia insert is still available.

            EDIT: (8/13/2012) – Since I wrote this post on Saturday (2 days ago), several people have notified me that Tripedia was discontinued in 2011. Some of those people have postulated that the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health may have removed the Tripedia Manufacturer’s Insert for this reason. If that’s the case, I would like to know why they still have TriHIBit and ActHIB inserts on their site. Both of these (actually they are the same insert, listed separately in two places) give instructions for combining the ActHIB vaccine for Haemophilus Influenzae type B with the Tripedia vaccine, for one injection containing FOUR vaccines: Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis and HIB. Is it really the case that Tripedia was discontinued? Or is it just no longer being made available UNLESS it is combined with the HIB vaccine? Is this another case like what happened when it was suggested that the MMR vaccine may be causing autism, and may be safer if separated? That suggestion was followed by the manufacturer’s decision to STOP making the separate vaccines available at all. They removed the choice so there could be no comparisons between children who received the vaccines separately vs. those who got the MMR. Is history repeating itself now, with Tripedia?

            ActHIB and TriHIBit inserts BOTH say to refer to the Tripedia insert for information about adverse reactions. The insert for ActHIB and TriHIBit tells the reader NO LESS THAN SIX TIMES – “refer to the Tripedia insert” – yet when you go looking for it on the Bloomberg site, it’s not there. Why? If they are not going to list the information where you can find it, they need to include the Tripedia adverse reactions in the ActHIB and TriHIBit inserts. If they fail to do that, it does indeed look like they are trying to hide the facts that their vaccine is responsible for the deaths and lifelong severe injuries of children. For ease of reading, here is the information from the Tripedia insert:

            • As with other aluminum-containing vaccines, a nodule may be palpable at the injection sites for several weeks. Sterile abscess formation at the site of injection has been reported.3,36

            • Rarely, an anaphylactic reaction (ie, hives, swelling of the mouth, difficulty breathing, hypotension, or shock) has been reported after receiving preparations containing diphtheria, tetanus, and/or pertussis antigens.3 …

            • Arthus-type hypersensitivity reactions, characterized by severe local reactions (generally starting 2-8 hours after an injection), may follow receipt of tetanus toxoid.

            • A few cases of peripheral mononeuropathy and of cranial mononeuropathy have been reported following tetanus toxoid administration, although available evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relation.37

            • A review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found evidence for a causal relationship between tetanus toxoid and both brachial neuritis and Guillain-Barré syndrome.37

            • A few cases of demyelinating diseases of the CNS have been reported following some tetanus toxoid-containing vaccines or tetanus and diphtheria toxoid-containing vaccines, although the IOM concluded that the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.37

            *** Adverse events reported during *post-approval* use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, AUTISM, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.2”

          • Nick Sanders

            Cherry picking for the win!

            although the IOM concluded that the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.

            Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.

            https://www.factcheck.org/2017/11/debunking-false-vaccine-claim/

          • ciaparker2

            Not always possible, but usually. When you have thousands of children reacting the same way, with convulsions, explosive diarrhea, vomiting, screaming, and death, within a short time of getting the vaccine, then it is obvious that it was the vaccine which did it. But we all know that you do not care about babies being killed as long as your employer gets his $$$. I’m blocking you. You are despicable.

          • Nick Sanders

            And you’re a paranoid nutter.

          • Roadstergal

            Interestingly enough, “Explosive diarrhea” and “Vomiting” are words that come to mind at your massive copypaste from Vaxtruth.

            The sign of someone who knows what they’re talking about is that that they can do high-level summaries of a topic in lay language that’s easy to understand, that they can also do deeper dives with appropriate use of more technical language, and that they can then get into reasonable discussions with other experts in the field.

            The sign of someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about is that they use big words that they don’t quite understand, fooling people who _really_ don’t know what they’re talking about, but making their lack of understanding abundantly clear to anyone with half a clue.

            See: sovereign citizens discussing the law, and Cia Parker talking about anything biological.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, vaxtruth is deceptive. Actually, it’s crap.

          • Bored Now

            Thankfully, I have some pretty awesome friends who are old hats at researching the truth about vaccines. One of them (I love you, Dawn H.) had the foresight to take a screenshot of page 11 of the Tripedia insert.

            Why wouldn’t you just google? I found several sites with copies of the insert in one go. Why bother making up stories about companies trying to hide something?

          • Mike Stevens

            ” Why bother making up stories”
            …That’s her raison d’être.

          • Bored Now

            Quite. I really don’t get how people convince themselves of some kind of conspiracy at work. Tripedia has been off the FDA list of approved vaccines for how long now? Why wouldn’t some websites remove documents for vaccines people in the US aren’t going to get?

          • MaineJen

            “From Vaxtruth” your argument is invalid

          • FallsAngel

            Truth is, once again, truth.

            That’s funny coming from one of the biggest liars in the anti-vax crowd. Well, they’re all liars, but you keep pushing this “shill” business with absolutely no evidence.

            In one study 95% of Ethiopian refugees were shown to have natural tetanus protection.

            And this study knew it was “natural” protection how? Ethiiopia has about 90% coverage for 3 doses of DTP vaccine, and about 95% for 1 dose.
            file:///C:/Users/home/Downloads/immunization_eth.pdf

            It is criminal MALFEASANCE if you do not tell prospective vaccines all the facts before giving them the vaccine.

            Coming from an unlicensed lawyer who dispenses MEDICAL advice w/o any health care background.

          • Nick Sanders

            You tried to load a file from your computer and it didn’t work, but otherwise, good points.

          • FallsAngel

            Thanks. You can paste that into your browser. It’s just documentation of vaccine levels in Ethopia. I guess cia thinks Ethopia is a “shithole country”.

          • Mike Stevens

            “In one study 95% of Ethiopian refugees were shown to have natural tetanus protection.”

            A blatant lie.
            The study presumed that as many as 30% [not 95%] had protective levels of antibody acquired through natural exposure to tetanus bacilli, but the study used a standard ELISA technique, and more recent evidence has demonstrated that protective levels as determined by this assay are at least an order of magnitude higher than earlier claimed.
            None of the Ethiopian subjects acheived anywhere near these levels.

          • MaineJen

            “I don’t know why mothers don’t give their own immunity to their babies. They don’t protect babies from pertussis either, I assume because original antigenic sin prevents them from getting transferable immunity from their vaccines. I don’t know what would be the reason in the case of tetanus.”

            You. Don’t. Know. What. You’re. Talking. About.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, I’m glad your paranoia and deluded thinking are here for all to see. You realise that your comments expose your lack of knowledge, not just of biomedical science and immunology, but also of basic biology. You don’t know much about how to critically appraise a paper, either.

            Tell me, why is it that any paper, no matter how poor, how old, how discreditied, or conflicted is championed by you as marvellous and the end to all debate on a subject when you think it endorses your views?

            For those interested in your latest gishgallop of bad evidence, let me distil it down for observers:

            Cia, desperate to prove that natural immunity to tetanus exists, despite the books she told us were definitive on the topic contradicting her, now cites a paper she dug out about antitoxin levels in Ethiopians. She claims that minute levels of detectable antitoxin prove that asymptomatic natural infection happened, and provides protective levels of immunity.

            She thinks that because the assay used (ELISA) was “highly sensitive” that this means the test is “highly accurate”. What she doesn’t appreciate is that a highly sensitive assay is not an accurate assay, since it has a relatively high proportion of false positives (like this one did).
            She ignores all the evidence indicating that an in vitro neutralisation test is now considered to be the gold standard, because in vitro assays like ELISA greatly overestimate antitoxin levels, and lacked specificity, likely due to a high degree of non-specific antibody binding. The study she cited does not appear to have set up their assays with appropriate internal negative controls using immunoglobulin (a common mistake) to adequately calibrate the assay.

            Studies have quantified the level of protective antibody as judged by the vastly more accurate and specific neutralisation assays at more than 0.16 IU/ml. Non-specific binding is thought to be responsible for low level readings on ELISA assays up to 0.01IU/ml.

            In the paper Cia cited, 30% of subjects had levels greater than 0.01 IU/ml, but the range was very narrow, with an average titre of 0.007 and an SD of 0.002 IU/ml, with a range from 0.002 to 0.023 IU/ml.

            Only a complete idiot would be unable to appreciate that these levels in no way represent levels of protective immunity, but then, as we already know, Cia is a complete idiot.

            Review on immunity to tetanus, with explanation of the assays and protective levels:
            http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/43687/1/9789241595551_eng.pdf

          • Mike Stevens

            “Incidentally, the same was thought about rabies (that there is no natural immunity), until a recent study showed that in Alaskan trappers who had never had any vaccine, they too had antibodies. Poof goes that theory”

            Actually that’s not news to me Cia. It’s been known for some time that some humans and animals can express markers of viral infection/exposure but have never developed clinical rabies. This is incredibly unusual.
            I suggest at this point you get out a dictionary and look up the word “unusual”. It does not mean what you think it means (“often” or “always”).
            The hypothesis is that some strains of rabies exhibit an attenuated form of infection, remaining in peripheral nerves and not migrating to the CNS.

          • Claire Secrist

            Isn’t it funny how she never is shaken in her delusion that she knows a damned thing?

          • ciaparker2

            it’s only unusual because few people in today’s world handle wild mammals which might be carrying rabies, and so are never exposed to the virus. If we lived in a hunter-trapper culture, I’d imagine that a large percentage of those working in the field would have acquired immunity to rabies. As many of those working with farm animals have probably always acquired immunity to tetanus. I had read years ago that many animal populations had developed natural immunity to rabies, that it was only in conditions of stress that rabies reemerged.

            There are a lot of topics here which it would be very interesting to research. Keep careful records of which workers had acquired antibodies and how many of them at any point developed a clinical case of the diseases. I don’t know how we will ever find out, though, since there wouldn’t be any money in it.

          • Roadstergal

            You’re very good at asserting things as being ‘probably’ and ‘I’d imagine’ true with zero evidence.

            Is that why you think it’s fine to starve a baby for a full week? You’d imagine that they’re probably fine with that, and it would be very interesting to research, there’s just no money in it?

          • Nick Sanders

            Also as “we now know” and “we realize” when nobody but her fancies any such foolish thing.

          • Claire Secrist

            Let’s just tell children in India who die of rabies contacted from feral dogs, that it’s their fault for not being Alaskan trappers. That’s obviously where you’re going with this.

          • ciaparker2

            Mike,

            I found this, doubtless one of the studies referred to in the second edition. Offit says that these early studies considered a titer of 0.001 to be protective, when that was obviously much too low according to his modern superior knowledge. Not true, In this Israeli study, the titer of natural tetanus antitoxin found in 30% of the subjects was ABOVE 0.001.

            INFECTION AND IMMUNITY, Apr. 1985, p. 267-268 Vol. 48, No. 10019-9567/85/040267-02$02.00/0

            Copyright © 1985, American Society for Microbiology

            Naturally Acquired Immunity to Tetanus Toxin in an IsolatedCommunity

            HAIM MATZKINt* AND SHARON REGEV

            Epidemiology Branch, Medical Corps, Israel Defense Force, Israel

            Received 23 August 1984/Accepted 11 January 1985

            Literature on natural immunity to tetanus is scarce. We examined antitetanus antibody levels with the
            enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay in 200 people living in an isolated community and clarified the influence of age and sex on immunity. In 197 subjects, antitoxin antibodies were measured. No sex differences were noted, and 30% had protective levels (above 0.01 IU/ml). The percentage of those considered protected was age dependent.

          • Roadstergal

            What did you think of the materials and methods section, Cia?

            Particularly, the neutralization tests to determine whether or not they were measuring protective antibody?

            What did you think of their negative controls?

            Why did these paragons of natural immunity end their paper by saying “one should note that it is imperative to implement immediate immunization in these countries?” These were pure-as-snow, pre-1998 scientists!

          • ciaparker2

            What do you think pharma employees are going to say? Did they have any cases of tetanus occurring in those with natural immunity? Or was It a just-in-case scenario? And did you mean pre-1988? 1998 was well into the Totally Corrupted Pharma era.

          • MaineJen

            Lurkers, notice her response to a direct question, which would be easy for anyone with knowledge of immunology: “Shills! All of you, shills!!!11!”

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, they were pre-1988. That’s your Time Of Honest Vaccine Scientists – so that combined with their non-pharmaceutical employee status (If you Stand With Israel, surely their military is un-impeachable?) and funding should make them the most honest scientists who ever honested…?

            Again, what did you think of their M&M, particularly the work they did to show whether antibodies were neutralizing or not, and their negative controls?

          • Mike Stevens

            Can you answer the questions, Cia, seeing as how you are such a genius expert in all matters infective…

            1. What is your opinion of the methodology?
            2. What did you think of the negative controls?
            3. Why did the authors of this paper that YOU cited in support of your claim say that it was imperative that it was imperative to initiate tetanus vaccination in the country concerned?

            Please answer, and not deflect.

            Oh and finally…
            4. Why do you think the authors are pharma employees?

          • ciaparker2

            The Wicked Witch of the West commands me to dance? Go to hell.

          • Jack Sprat

            just say “ouch” and be done with it.

          • Roadstergal

            We’re just asking you to share your immunological wisdom with the rest of us. That’s what you’re all about, isn’t it? Showing that you’re smarter? So go ahead, show us. Show any lurkers why they should believe you over posters with demonstrated experience in this area. If you have the knowledge, you should be tripping over your own shoes to show it.

          • Claire Secrist

            Nice, people who ask you to support your argument are hellbound in your mind. That’s hilarious.

          • Claire Secrist

            All I can say is your PhD must be fictional or from a clown college, because you can’t handle pretty basic cross examination of your arguments. You have never defended a thesis.

          • FallsAngel

            This from someone who considers “pantload” a vulgarity!

          • Mike Stevens

            All she did was ask you a civil question. As you don’t know the answer, you could just give your usual “nwmt”, like you always do when you realise your ignorance and incompetence is exposed.

          • ciaparker2

            I’m blocking you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Even if you block someone, other people reading can still see them pointing out how bad your arguments are.

          • Who?

            It’s all about cia’s feelings, not about anyone else. If she can’t see Mike, Mike does not exist.

            Easy to see how she has fallen down the woo rabbit hole with that level of critical thought.

          • Mike Stevens

            She’s on a blocking spree…!
            Head in sand, fingers in ears, saying “La la la la I can’t hear you!”

          • Who?

            Block away: we all still exist, everyone can still see what we post, and-this can’t be stressed enough-you are still wrong.

          • ciaparker2

            And everyone can see what pharma-employed liars you are, what rabid shills you are, vicious, going to any lengths to tie the babies down and kill them (as long as you get paid first), and everyone can see how many children you have maimed, and everyone knows of many you have killed. You think you are going to get away with it forever?

          • Who?

            What a sad, tired, broken response. Still no compassion for the child.

            And why would anyone pay a single cent to have you discredited? Your spittle stained, eugenicist, self loathing rants are your advertisement, and they don’t look good. No one in their right mind would be influenced by what you write on these forums.

            The blocking is just the icing on the cake, as you literally blank out anything that doesn’t fit your world view.

          • ciaparker2

            Oh, yeah, MUCH better to disable the child for life, with no speech, no ability to communicate, no ability to have friends, have a job, get married, travel, go to a party, buy a house, be able to support him or herself. Much better to leave him wheezing for breath if he inhales one molecule of peanut dust, or steps out in the cold and has an asthma attack which kills him, dies in a diabetic coma, dies of SIDS, dies in convulsions, all these are MUCH better than avoiding cancer by being sick with measles for a week. Or having itchy spots for a week. Much, much better to have children whose immune systems have been destroyed by vaccines, or go into vicious autoimmune attacks because their immune system has been confused by vaccines, much much better to do anything it takes to bring those pharma dollars rolling in. You trample on children’s lives and grind their faces into the dirt, you hypocritical avaricious bloodthirsty nullity.

          • Who?

            I don’t know a single child or adult in the state you describe. Why is my anecdata less valid than yours?

            A hypocrite believes one thing and does or espouses another, so I’m not that; avaricious, laughable; bloodthirsty, oh please. I’m not the one indifferent to the sight of a child with rabies.

            And if I’m truly a nullity-you claim to have some class of law degree, and if you do you should know what that word truly means, as I do-why waste your time arguing with me?

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            Where did you get your crystal ball? Autistics will never get married? Buy houses? Support themselves? Hahahahaha.

          • ciaparker2

            Over 90% are unemployed. A third cannot use language at all, another third are low-verbal and cannot use language to communicate at more than a rudimentary level. The high-functioning third have great difficulty forming and maintaining relationships, because they cannot put themselves in another’s place (empathize, compromise, share experiences, opinions, and feelings), because encephalitis often short-circuits the neurons which usually permit understanding of narratives which link one event or idea to the next. Very few high-functioning autists are married because they cannot use the higher-level skills of compassion, understanding, and compromise in a relationship. Even those high-functioning or Asperger’s individuals who are employed full-time (very few of them), usually have jobs which pay very little, since they have difficulty engaging appropriately with other people. So you tell me. How many people who cannot use or understand language very well, many of them at all, who cannot go to college because they can’t understand higher-level language, cannot get a well-paying job because they cannot use language or deal appropriately with other people, cannot maintain interpersonal relationships, much less marriage, how many do you think there are who can do all these things well enough to achieve the normal activities I have mentioned, which, before the Age of Autism, almost all human beings in the developed world did, enjoyed, and were proud of?

          • Namaste

            Sources please……

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            Will you please stop allistic-splainin’ to me?

          • ciaparker2

            Meaning that you cannot rebut anything I have said because you now it’s true. But, as I said, you don’t care anything at all about how many are maimed by the practices you so vociferously defend.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “Meaning that you cannot rebut anything I have said because you now it’s true.”

            ciaparker2: “Over 90% are unemployed.”

            Incorrect..

            Drexel University | Autism Outcomes | “National Autism Indicators Report: Transition into Young Adulthood”

            … …

            Next?

          • ciaparker2

            What a wonderful response you have provided to the wilful ignorance of what’s her name!

            “Overview

            Young adults with autism have a difficult time following high school for almost any outcome you choose – working, continuing school, living independently, socializing and participating in the community, and staying healthy and safe. To complicate matters, many of these youth begin their journey into adulthood by stepping off a services cliff. Access to needed supports and services drops off dramatically after high school – with too many having no help at all.”
            It was Mike Stevens who said that less than 10% of autists work full-time (obviously the high-functioning end), with 40% being employed part-time doing something (with frequent turnover and at minimum wage, which does not permit independent living for anyone). So 50% not employed at all doing anything, completely dependent on the taxpayer.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: ‘I was wrong to post that figure and will not admit it. In fact, I will attempt to deflect away and/or shift my error onto someone else.’

            … …

            And as I wrote previously..

            Next?

          • ciaparker2

            Take it up with Dr. -. It was his figure. Thank you so much for the text which supports my statement that the autistic have been disabled by vaccines in such a way that they cannot do any of those activities which most of us feel make life worth living. What’s her name was crowing that of COURSE they can speak, go to college, get jobs, get married, have children, etc. etc. When of course very few can.

          • Proponent

            You.. didn’t.. read.. the.. report.

            Obviously.

            Here’s some more food for thought for you, ciaparker2..

            “Employment is the primary transition goal of students with disabilities as they prepare to exit high school, and the majority of parents of youth on the autism spectrum believe that their children will transition into work.”

          • ciaparker2

            They (we) hopefully BELIEVE it, but unfortunately it doesn’t usually work out that way. Now give us the actual figures for how many non-verbal and then, separately, the low-verbal, achieve full-time and, separately, part-time employment, and whether the latter earn minimum wage, a living wage, or a normal salary, and how many are in sheltered workshops which don’t even offer minimum wage. Actual figures for real employment for all the different groups (non-verbal, low-verbal, and high-functioning), whether it’s full or part-time, and how many hours a week the average is for part-time employment and how much each group gets paid. And how many in each group are able to live independently, meaning get and pay for an apartment, either themselves or seeking help, handle their finances, pay taxes if applicable, handle household emergencies either themselves or calling a repairman, handle transportation either themselves or calling someone, prepare a grocery list and buy, store, prepare healthy, complete menus, keep their clothes clean and mended and replaced as needed.

          • Heidi

            How many people in general actually make a living wage, Cia? Why isn’t the minimum wage a living wage to begin with? Why is it nearly impossible for those born into poverty to escape it in the US? You’re the one who voted for Trump.

          • Claire Secrist

            The aggressive consolidation of wealth into the hands of the most upper of classes, and the systematic stripping of the rights of workers, certainly has nothing to do with how hard it is for anyone to make a living wage. It’s because they’re inferior genetic specimens. Just ask Cia. Who thinks shes self evidently superior and proves it by commenting online all day about how she thinks her daughter is worthless.

          • Mike Stevens

            90% of adults on the ASD spectrum are employed, Cia.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            When software giant SAP announced in 2013 that they were aiming to employ 700 autistic people, we all wondered who they planned to replace the other 80,000 with.

          • Nick Sanders

            I only work part time because my boss has spent months refusing to give me full time hours despite my repeated requests. I would be glad to work full time, but apparently having mental health issues does not exempt one from America’s “screw the worker” corporate culture, even if one works for a non-profit.

          • Claire Secrist

            She’d have to be purposefully rejecting reality she can observe with her own eyes, if she believes that 90% of people on the spectrum are unemployed.

            It’s interesting though, because it just shows how sick her value system is. A person’s employment status is a pretty artificial indicator of their value. Stay at home moms and dads aren’t considered employed. A bad economy can make you unemployed. The whims of hiring managers aren’t the arbiter of human value.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Codswallop. It’s because you made a wall of text filled with utter nonsense and vicious lies about autistic people. Virtually every autistic person I know has been in full employment, many earning far more than you can imagine. Many are now retired, of course, because I’m getting on in years as are most of the people I know. I’ve been happily married to my equally autistic husband for 38 years; his autistic father sadly died just before his 60th anniversary, but my parents are still happily married after over sixty years together.

            Come to think of it, it is mostly the non-autistic people I know with the failed relationships.

          • Claire Secrist

            I’m happily married and have a well loved and adored child, I’m in grad school, the poet laureate of my state thought I was a talented poet when I studied under him, I’m a lifelong artist, etc etc etc. I also don’t spend my life railing against the human worth of disabled and differently abled people in internet comment sections. But keep asserting bullshit about people on the spectrum, even when you’re literally talking to people whose existence proves you’re an idiot.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            Wow. You know very little about autism, at least the high functioning end of the spectrum. I have two good friends, both diagnosed with autism as adults (as they are in their 40s now, and when they were young diagnoses were only made for the most severe on the spectrum). Both of them have very high-paying jobs as computer programmers (since their neurotypical brain is quite useful in solving certain types of programming problems). One of them is married, with two children, one of whom is also on the spectrum. Neither of these individuals had trouble getting through school, university, and securing high-paying jobs. They both clearly don’t have problems making friends, since I count among them (and there is a group of us, that get together every so often, so they have more than one friend).

            One of them has been offered a promotion, but he’s smart enough to realize that he does not have the skills to manage people. But as a high-end, in-demand programmer, he makes six figures (granted, those are Canadian dollars, but he lives a good life.)

            Those are anecdotes, of course, but clearly illustrate you don’t know the slightest thing about those with high-functioning autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            Autistics?
            Over 90% are gainfully employed. Only 5% lack language ability beyond 3rd grade and only 2% cannot use language to communicate at more than a rudimentary level. High-functioning autistics are frequently able to form and maintain relationships, despite acknowledged lower levels of empathetic cognition. Genetic influences are paramount in determining these outcomes.
            Read “Neurotribes: The legacy of autism and how to think smarter about people who think differently” by Steve Silberman.

            How’d I do Cia?

          • Nick Sanders

            Hi. One of my favorite pass-times is reading; if you care to ask I would love to tell you about some of my favorite novel series. My social difficulties have little to do with being unable to compromise, share my thoughts, or put myself in another’s place (I just spent the afternoon roleplaying with my friends), but the fact that I’m a shy nerd with a dislike of crowded spaces and loud noise, more commonly known as “everywhere that’s good for making friends”. I’m not married because I don’t have space in my life for a relationship between dealing with shit from people like you and my complete lack of financial stability. I engage with people fine most of the time, but I get paid very little because American wages are an embarrassment. I mean, I tried to get a STEM degree, but I was so used to not having to study to pass my highschool classes that I didn’t buckle down like I should have, which combined with some really unfortunate luck in the health department meant I didn’t pass (here’s a tip, don’t stay in the oldest dorm building on campus or you might end up with an infection from the black mold in the AC vents and spend the day of a major test coughing up multi-colored sputum and wishing you were dead).

            Anyway, long story short, you’re full of shit and you should know that.

          • Claire Secrist

            Co-signed in a thousand ways. As for myself, my workplace took full time status away from me when I was caring for a family member with a serious but temporary health problem.

          • Namaste

            Okay, you haave officially gone ‘round the bend. If you can prove any of those bullshit, looney tunes stipulations, by all means, do so. If not, you’ve demonstrated that you would be well served by a 72 hour hold and a dose (Or several) of Haldol.

          • ciaparker2

            Too bad they did away with debtors’ prison, or you would be there rotting for the rest of your life for running up $120,000 in debts which you had no means of paying. So now you’ve sold yourself to the devil and are taking his wages. You will one day regret having sold your soul.

          • Namaste

            Real mature. Resort to an ad-hominem attack. If you can back up your claims, DO IT.

          • namaste

            If you can back up your claims, DO IT!

          • Acleron

            Get help.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You went round the bend with the previous comment on this thread, and now have gone over the cliff with this one. Seriously, as Acleron suggested, get help. When you are accusing people of outrageous and impossible behaviour (tying babies down and killing them?!) and then claiming to have potentially damaging information about anonymous commenters and posting it (I don’t believe a word, of course, not with your track record of blatantly lying), you have stepped over every line there is. Attempted doxxing, even if a failure, is nasty.

            If you are fishing for a ban, I hope you don’t get one. You have made it obvious to people who might have been on the fence that your position, as well as being demonstrably false, is so immoral that you have no compunction about flinging wild accusations at people for simply stating verifiable facts. So your vile comments are a wonderful teaching aid.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “You will one day regret having sold your soul.”

            Huh.

            Too bad you don’t have one, ciaparker2.

            … …

            And if you need reminding.. I am right here to tell everyone of how you trolled lilady R.N.’s online memorial at Skeptical Raptor and stated that ‘you had prayed for her to suffer in the afterlife’.

            Amongst your other vile posts and comments.

          • Acleron

            It’s the sort of person who would tell freshly grieving parents that their babies death was their fault because they allowed the baby to be immunised.

          • kfunk937

            Yes and no. I still can’t quite bring myself not have a stern pity for, e.g. Munchausen by proxy parents (although that does not approach how strongly I feel about protecting their innocent victims). It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be held accountable, just that somehow they were terribly broken, themselves. Prevention is of some interest, IOW.

            They so often seem to have become lost causes.

          • Proponent

            I do agree with you, K.. for the most part.

            Sincerely.

            … …

            There is some ‘madness to my method’, though.. particularly, where ciaparker2 is concerned and at times. Think.. B.F. Skinner and operant conditioning..

            “Behavior which is reinforced tends to be repeated (i.e., strengthened); behavior which is not reinforced tends to die out-or be extinguished (i.e., weakened).”

            In this instance.. moralizing.

          • kfunk937

            When I saw your reply, floating all by it’s lonesome, outta context, my first thought: “Ouch. Her, or me?” ‘Cause I know I moralise.
            😉

          • Namaste

            Aaaaaah, and the truth comes out. The language you use suggests that your anti-vaxx stance is an article of faith rather than science. “Big Pharma” is Satan, the source of all evil. Vaccines are His demons. You, however, have cast yourself as one of Nature’s (God’s) elect, on a crusade to purge the world of evil. Therefore, questioning those articles of faith causes the same blow to your ego as would be caused by calling into question the beliefs of the Catholic church to a devout paritioner, Well, I’ll give you points for grandiosity, just nothing for critical thinking. Which, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not the same thing as a reflexive defiance of conventional wisdom.

          • Acleron

            Isn’t it always religious? The moment facts are ignored and lies are continuously exposed, how can it not be religious, belief without facts, arrogance etc?

          • FallsAngel

            No. Antivaxers span the philosophical/religious spectrum. There are few organized religions that oppose vaccines.

          • Acleron

            It is a religion in itself, belief without and in spite of evidence, leaders who are blindly followed, lying because it is the right thing to promulgate the belief, ostracism of apostates, the in/out group mentality and books (web sites mainly) that are worshipped. They don’t have churches, yet, but then new religions don’t. I you are religious then that might offend you but if you are you don’t evangelise like these folks.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            I don’t know a single health care professional who “ties babies down and kills them.” Not one. I don’t even know of a single one who would want to do anything to harm a child; most of them are trying to do the exact opposite. I’m in Canada, where we have a single-payer health care system, so you can’t accuse us of being pharma shills – the government pays our salaries. Most people working in health care aren’t exactly well-paid either, especially the allied health team members and RPNs. Physicians and nurse practitioners make good salaries, but they are only a fraction of the health care providers out there.

          • FallsAngel

            Flagged and downvoted as harassment. Enough is enough, cia!

          • Mike Stevens

            And everyone else can see our responses to you which provide further evidence that you are a deranged nutcase, as if your own posts were not proof enough.

            But you won’t be able to see what we say about you, will you Cia?

          • Bored Now

            So call me curious cia. How much of that do you actually believe in some internally consistent sense. How many of the people here who make reasoned posts generally in favor of vaccination would happily take some amount of money in exchange for some act which we knew for a fact caused the death of children.

            For example, if you actually believe anything you’re saying. You should have an idea of how much these folk get paid. If so, how much is it? Is it $10/year? or are they paid tens of thousands per year?

          • Who?

            The entire thing is preposterous. Seriously, it is just about impossible for anything to be done without someone knowing about it, and conspiracies work only when there are very few participants who have a lot to lose by breaking trust.

            The idea that these multi gazillion dollar companies-most of which have a nice earner in alternative medicine that has none of the dreary rules and regulations that so stymie actual drugs-are paying a bunch of people with too much time on their hands to respond to lunatics like cia defies reason.

            Apart from anything else, her lunacy really doesn’t need any rebuttal, it would be kinder to just let her rip but sometimes it’s just fun to see how far she will go.

          • Bored Now

            Agreed. But I confess I’m curious how deep this rabbit hole goes. Most people who spout these things really don’t appear to believe this on anything but a surface level. That is, they believe it enough to say it and hear it without tripping up whatever critical facilities they have left.

            However they haven’t really thought about it not just the amount of secrecy required but exactly how the recruiting process works, how much time is being put in (most of these folk seem to overestimate how much time it takes to respond to their nonsense) or segment of the population would actually be willing to exchange that much time for that little money.

          • FallsAngel

            I think cia actually believes the garbage she posts. I also think she’s currently having some sort of a melt-down. She says her daughter has the flu, maybe she’s really stressed out. Not excusing her, just sayin’.

          • Bored Now

            I definitely believe that cia believes something negative about people who post reasoned arguments against her. I’m just not sure what. I suppose I expect people who really believe they’ve found of nest of dangerous sociopaths wouldn’t settle for just being catty with them on the internet.

            But perhaps you’re right and her more extreme statements are the result of stress.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            She has claimed her daughter gets a lot of illnesses – you’d think that she would have worked out by now that her aversion to protecting the poor girl from disease is what is causing the stress. Perhaps she is always stressed.

            I have a friend with MS, and that is also stressful.

            But I believe the greatest cause of her stress is her frustration that we cannot see the world from her paranoid and delusional point of view. It appears to me that she is so utterly convinced that she is right, not only can she not accept any education on the subject but she cannot understand why we don’t fall at her feet and thank her for educating us.

          • Mike Stevens

            She seems to have become more aberrant and hyperactive of late than usual. Perhaps it is as you say.
            But my patience with her is at an end. I have spent more hours than I care to remember explaining in great detail and with utmost patience the medical principles behind many biomedical, epidemiological and clinical aspects to vaccines and infections, but she has never accepted once that I was correct about anything or that she might be mistaken on anything, even completely uncontroversial issues. Her response – to block me. I’m done showing her any sympathy or patience, frankly.

          • FallsAngel

            Yes, I was at that point the past few days as well, for the same reasons.

            If I could change one thing about cia’s worldview of disease, I wish she would admit that the vaccine preventable diseases, all of them, are serious. If I could change two or three more of her points of view, I’d like to see her agree that disease causes way more harms than vaccines, and that she does not know more than the CDC, the WHO, and everyone else.

          • shay simmons

            I wish she would admit

            Yes, and I’m going to wish for a million dollars and a sable coat.

          • shay simmons

            I hope her daughter is ok. Can you imagine being sick and having parker as your care provider?

          • FallsAngel

            No! Poor child is probably miserable as cia won’t give her any fever reducers. When I had the flu, Tylenol really helped me feel better. I could tell when it was wearing off.

          • FallsAngel

            She probably blocked you, like she did the rest of the pro-vax people.

          • Claire Secrist

            The spirit of Christmas really does live in our hearts all the year round. What a blessing for Mike. What a gift to everyone who reads your interactions with him, and realizes you blocked him because you couldn’t beat him

          • momofone

            “What a gift to everyone who reads your interactions with him, and realizes you blocked him because you couldn’t beat him.”

            I wish I could upvote this more than once. Because you couldn’t beat him, Cia. You blocked him because you couldn’t beat him. Your arguments are weak and illogical, and his are sound. You must know that on some level, or you wouldn’t need to block him.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Oh, good. That means he can continue to refute your nonsense and you won’t be able to see it!

          • Acleron

            Mike is going to be seriously pleased about this.

          • The Vitaphone Queen

            The Wicked Witch of the West? *does Rainbow Dash laugh*

          • kfunk937

            Cia, how would you feel if your daughter got to interview Steven Colbert on national television like this non-verbal autistic adult did?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Offit says…

            Offit says…… Absolutely nothing whatsoever on the topic.
            He didn’t write the chapter on tetanus, Cia.
            If you wish to credit the 5 authors, look their names up.

          • ciaparker2

            Offit directed the radical change between the earlier editions and those published after he joined the team. Give me a break.

          • Roadstergal

            That whole dealio about ‘neutralization’ is the concise way of getting at what I was rambling about above – the true test of a protective Ab is not just that it binds to tetanus toxin, but that it neutralizes its activity.

            And ‘nonspecific binding’ is all about having appropriate controls – which is something we’ve gotten better at since the ’80s.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, the surveys done over 30 years ago did not have appropriate laboratory controls for their assays, and they did not establish vaccination status of those they sampled, so they had no group of “unvaccinated” and naturally exposed persons to compare against “vaccinated” controls.

          • Who?

            Now that’s just mean, using an up to date edition of cia’s source.

            She certainly has the confident demeanour, I quite see how she sucks in the less well informed and resourced.

          • Mike Stevens

            It gets worse.
            When checking her source, I encountered several antivaccine websites disseminating exactly the same old misinformation.

          • ciaparker2

            So Offit said “humans colonized with C. tetani were rarely and inconsistently found to have
            antibodies to toxin and other C. tetani antigens,” but that turns out to mean 30% in the Israeli study, 80% in India, and 95% in Ethiopian refugees. Would you call that rare? And Offit said all these earlier studies showing natural immunity had been discredited because they had thought that titers of less than 0.001 were protective, when the colossi of his world had realized that that was too low, they had to be ABOVE 0.001 to be effective. And then going to one of those earlier studies, it turns out that they HAD titers ABOVE 0.001. It LOOKS as though Offit were just counting on no one’s noticing his lie.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m still very curious about what you think of the methodology on the Israeli study. What did they do well? What did you find convincing about their data? I know you’re a protein assay master, so enlighten us.

            Or, here, an easy one. Tell us, in your own words, a very brief outline of a properly controlled experiment to detect the presence of protective antibodies in some samples of human serum. It’s obvious from your posts how much immunology you know, so go on, tell us.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s certainly inconsistent.

          • Roadstergal

            Since you can’t understand basic science, this is a bit of a lost cause, but I’ll do it for the lurkers.

            (This is highly oversimplified, but it gets the gist.)

            Levels of antibody is just one data point. Almost every macromolecule we vaccinate against has tons of epitopes (bits that an antibody can recognize). Not all of these are in functional areas (that is, block some essential activity).

            One of the challenges of vaccine development is to make sure the response is of _neutralizing_ antibodies. You can have a high titer of antibodies (lots of them floating around), but they react uselessly or not sufficiently. Vaccines are developed to generate protective responses. Your ‘natural’ immune system hasn’t figured that out in some cases (like tetanus).

            Another example is influenza. The ‘head’ of the most common antigen is variable, which is why you need a new shot every year; however, the stem is fairly constant. Once in a while, a seasonal flu vaccine elicits an anti-stem response, and the person then has broad influenza immunity. That’s a big thrust of work right now – to ‘guide’ the response towards the stem.

            Levels of antibodies is like the frequency of your words. You can use a lot of words – and not have them mean anything (see: Cia Parker).

            Here, this is a nice little epitope mapping paper from The Days When Cia Trusted Science… *sepia filter* It’s a little klunky, because we have way better tools now: Infect Immun 45(3) p604-609

          • FallsAngel

            Who cares what you recommend? Tell your “gentle readers”, cia, what are your health care credentials?

          • ciaparker2

            I, unlike anyone else here at this time, get no kickbacks from the pharma industry for lying about their products. The gentle reader may consider what information I give in this impartial light.

          • FallsAngel

            You lie, cia. Please show evidence that anyone on here is getting a “kickback” from the pharma industry. That’s just hilarious!

            And do answer the question, love.

          • Caylynn, RD, MPH

            I receive no “kickbacks” from the pharma industry. As a PhD student, it would be wonderful if I could supplement my income, but sadly, kickbacks are not part of my funding package.

          • Roadstergal

            Big Pharma gets way more money from treating preventable diseases than preventing them with vaccines. If you’re not getting pharma kickbacks, you’re doing volunteer work for them.

          • Charybdis

            I had chickenpox; a bad case. I had pox EVERYWHERE, hair, groin/crotch, feet, EVERYWHERE. I remember the itching and sitting in a baking soda bath. I was not pleased to catch the disease and now I have had shingles twice, thanks to that “mild childhood illness” and will be vulnerable to shingles for the rest of my life. And shingles is PAINFUL, plus I developed a secondary staph infection with my last bout with shingles.

            DS had chickenpox at 9 months old, too young for the vaccine. We have NO idea where he caught it, but now he will be vulnerable to shingles in later life, because of the dormant herpes zoster virus just biding its time in his nervous system. He has recently completed his HPV series to prevent contracting and/or spreading HPV-related cancers in any future sexual partners.

            You spout nonsense and doubling down on nonsense just makes you look gullible, irresponsible and uninformed.

          • Mike Stevens

            Kids get lots of infections Cia.
            You wouldn’t know the names of most of them. They are multiple viruses and bacterial infections, usually of little great consequence since they won’t kill you.

            They cause fever. They would, according to you, prevent cancer.
            Vaccines cause fevers too. They would, according to you, prevent cancer.

            Thank god we have a means to kid the body into thinking it has had an infection that might otherwise have killed it, and ensure the body still gains the long term benefits of having the immunological and pyrogens response, via vaccination.
            …GO VACCINES!

          • ciaparker2

            Except that these days most parents have been trained to fear fever and give Tylenol (Pamol?) as soon as a fever appears, which completely negates their beneficial effect on the child’s immune system.

            You do as you like. I bought the book Vaccines and Autoimmunity, eighty dollars, 350 pages of detailed scientific facts showing how vaccines damage the immune system in thousands of different ways, resulting in serious autoimmune diseases. We’re not ever going to get another vaccine.

            GO, IMMUNE SYSTEM, METICULOUSLY HONED OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS OF EVOLUTION, TRIAL AND ERROR, TO BEQUEATH THE MOST PERFECTLY-TRAINED GROUP OF PROTECTIVE TECHNIQUES IMAGINABLE, BUT EASILY SCREWED UP BY MISCONCEIVED INTERVENTIONS LIKE VACCINES!

          • Mike Stevens

            “GO, IMMUNE SYSTEM, METICULOUSLY HONED OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS OF EVOLUTION, YET STILL UNABLE TO PREVENT INFECTIONS KILLING TENS OF MILLIONS OF HUMANS EVERY YEAR, UNTIL YOU GOT A HELPING HAND FROM VACCINES!!!”

            …..FTFY
            My pleasure…

          • Roadstergal

            “PERFECTLY TRAINED”

            Ah, yes. There is a very good way to train an immune system to respond to a specific pathogen.

            You ‘show’ it the antigens that are specific to that pathogen, to generate an immediate recall response when it’s exposed to the actual pathogen.

            That is, vaccinate.

            Question for you, cia. If you have a natural cowpox infection, do you have a vaccine injury?

          • momofone

            I think I’m going to try clicker-training my immune system. It’s definitely NOT perfectly trained at the moment, but surely if I time the clicks just right….

          • Acleron

            Try the stick and carrot approach, mind you only a non GMO organic carrot.

          • ciaparker2

            But have you also trained it to ignore and always completely detoxify the mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, ethylene glycol (antifreeze), neomycin, and foreign proteins in the pathogens and the cell culture? And have you trained it to recognize that this is an invasion completely unheard-of in millions of years of evolution, which bypasses the filtering systems of the skin, respiratory, and digestive systems, and just shoots the pathogens and all the foreign toxic material straight into the bloodstream, with a fast track to the brain and vital organs? Have you trained it to rein in its inflammatory responses to only the minimum level needed to cause the formation of antibodies? Have you trained it in the use of all the immune mechanisms which would have been practiced in combatting the natural infections, which would have given the child non-specific as well as specific immunity for life, and considerable protection from cancer and heart disease?

            Or have you invented a way to train it to respond with excessive inflammation of many systems (including the brain, encephalitis) and with aberrant responses to harmless substances which resemble vaccine ingredients you sensitized it to?

            Cowpox turned out not to prevent smallpox, and most smallpox vaccinations didn’t even include cowpox, but rotting, disgusting exudations of all types of animal abscesses. There were tens of thousands of deaths of appropriately vaccinated people who died of gangrene, syphilis, TB, leprosy, injection site infections and cancers, withered limbs and paralysis, and smallpox itself. And just plain anaphylaxis. The vaccine encephalitis caused the first cases of autism, normal children who reacted to the smallpox vaccine with losing their language and acting crazy, and who were dumped at Bedlam. Thousands of people rioted in the streets of many European cities protesting the mandatory vaccination laws which had killed so many of their children and neighbors.

          • Who?

            This borders on the unwell.

            Bedlam, indeed.

          • Roadstergal

            Yep, your body can handle all of those trace amounts of those substances and more. Those might be scary sounding words to you, but they’re just compounds to people who actually know anything at all. Especially formaldehyde – we make more of it just existing on a daily basis than is in every vaccine we get. You didn’t know that? You don’t know very much biology.

            Completely unheard-of for millions of years! Except for every single cut, scrape, and other break in the skin, but come on – we all know well that no cave-dwelling early hominids ever experienced an insult as great as a 22-gauge break in the skin! You heard it here first, Cia Parker wants everyone to know that mammalian skin was completely unbroken until the advent of vaccines.

            So is someone who has been infected with cowpox vaccine-damaged? Here, let me be specific. Was James Phipps vaccine-damaged?

            And since you keep ducking the question, why did you starve your baby when she was screaming in hunger? Starvation causes brain damage, Cia.

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Roadstergal

            In what language does “I’ve run out of bullshit” acronym out to “NWMT”?

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s always your response to getting backed into a corner. Pick up and run away. You can spend hours here back and forth, up until someone really, really nails you, and suddenly you don’t even have time to use words.

          • Who?

            Prove it by no longer engaging here.

            Right now this forum occupies prime real estate in your head.

          • Acleron

            Parker displaying her normal zero knowledge of physiology and toxicology.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            And history.

          • kilda

            >>straight into the bloodstream, with a fast track to the brain and vital organs?

            oh my God. There’s this thing called the blood-brain barrier, which means that nothing in the bloodstream has a “fast track to the brain.” I realize that vaccines don’t go straight into the bloodstream, but even if they did, the bloodstream is the exact opposite of a fast track to the brain.

            please, someone, make the stupidity stop…

          • ciaparker2

            But many of the pathogens as well as vaccine ingredients like mercury and aluminum can and do pass the blood-brain barrier, and are stored there indefinitely, causing many severe health problems. I’ve been struggling for years to chelate out the stored vaccine mercury in my brain which caused my MS. The vaccine toxins are also stored in the bones, kidneys, and liver, and other organs too. Look it up and you will see that both vaccine mercury and aluminum pass the blood-brain barrier.

          • Azuran

            Anti-vaxxers have so much obsession about things passing the blood-brain barrier.
            Just because it passes it, doesn’t mean that it’s damaging the brain, or it’s actively pumped through it in higher concentration and stored in the brain.

            There is a very simple reason why your attempts at getting mercury out of your brain has not cured you of MS. That’s because MS isn’t caused by mercury in your brain.

            I looked it up and while the cause of MS isn’t known, it’s largely believed to be auto-immune.

          • ciaparker2

            The brains of Alzheimer’s victims have been shown to be riddled with aluminum and mercury deposits, while those of healthy people are not. Many autistic children have been shown to be sky-high in mercury. You are obviously free to believe what you want, but the truth is that these metals devastate the health of those with the genetic reduction in detoxification capacity, often deficiency in glutathione production.
            Many people have been cured of MS and other diseases by chelating out the mercury. I just asked the other day at the health food store if magnesium malate chelates aluminum. The girl didn’t know, I’ll have to research it more. I’m not going to get sucked into another vortex: I have written extensively about my MS symptoms being identical to those of mercury poisoning, and how taking agents known to pull out stored mercury has caused series of severe mercury attacks with sudden severe vertigo and vomiting, sweating, complete loss of balance. Attacks which last for two months and then subside until I take another chelating agent. I’ve tried five different ones, the only thing in common their ability to pull mercury from the brain, and they’ve all set off another series of attacks. The Andy Cutler mercury chelation protocol seems to be the mildest and the best. However, it takes a long time to chelate all the mercury out. When I started over five years ago, I read that it takes an average of seven years to pull it all out in the case of multiple sclerosis. As you may know, even the most infinitesimal amount of a substance which causes an allergic reaction can cause devastating, even fatal, symptoms, as in a peanut allergic child (from the Hib vaccine) inhaling one molecule of peanut dust and dying of it.

          • MaineJen

            If you are taking supplements that cause sudden vertigo and vomiting, you’re poisoning yourself.

            How much are you paying to poison yourself every few months?

          • swbarnes2

            No, they haven’t. You just can’t stop lying. You literally can’t. And ironic that someone who talks so much about brain damage has done this to herself willingly.

            http://www.alzheimer.ca/en/Home/About-dementia/Alzheimer-s-disease/Risk-factors/Aluminum

            “Some studies show increased levels of trace elements of aluminum in the brains of people with dementia, while others do not.
            Studies have not found an increased incidence of dementia in people with occupational exposure to aluminum.
            Tea is one of the few plants whose leaves accumulate larger trace element amounts of aluminum that can seep into the brewed beverage. However, there is no evidence that dementia is more prevalent in cultures that typically drink large amounts of tea.
            Unfortunately, earlier animal studies focused on one animal that is particularly susceptible to aluminum poisoning, which has led to incorrect conclusions about the general effects of aluminum on the body.

            Current research provides no convincing evidence that exposure to trace elements of aluminum is connected to the development of dementia.”

          • ciaparker2

            Yeah, pharma research, the most common kind, exonerates ALL of their vaccine ingredients of ever doing any harm to anyone. While trustworthy, impartial studies show how dangerous they are. Please feel free to offer yourself as a test subject and ask to be loaded up with as much mercury and aluminum as they care to administer to you.

          • swbarnes2

            An honest person would cite one of these “trustworthy impartial studies”.

            Did you read the part about how people exposed to more aluminium don’t get more dementia?

            Of course not. An honest person would have done so, but you have trained your brain to respond joyfully to lies and sh*t. Far more damaging to you than any environmental exposure you’ve ever had, but you did it to your self gladly.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Yeah, pharma research, the most common kind, exonerates ALL of their vaccine ingredients of ever doing any harm to anyone.”

            Quite untrue.
            Sanofi pulled their Dengue vaccine following research they had done showing a possible risk of vaccinated individuals getting Dengue.

            So again, just more of the routine antivax, anti-pharma, Parker propaganda.
            LIES, in other words.

          • Mike Stevens

            Can you show that this research was Pharma-funded please?

            Your claim, your burden of proof.

            But you won’t reply, will you…. because you know you are lying again.

          • StephanieJR

            If tea contains aluminium, and aluminium causes dementia, the Brits are fucked!

          • Heidi

            I think tea also contains quite a bit of fluoride. So I guess all Brits are totes brainwashed but only by propaganda the antivaxxers and the like don’t like. How fluoride can target the brain so specifically is a mystery to me.

          • MaineJen

            Huh…you’d think our teeth would be better then

          • MaineJen

            *the more you know*

          • Acleron

            We are already, Brexit.

          • Roadstergal

            Breast milk contains lots of aluminum. Is that why Cia Parker starved her newborn daughter? To keep her aluminum levels low?

          • Azuran

            Make up your mind, does mercury and aluminum causes autism, MS or Alzheimer? It can’t be all 3 at the same time.

            So, you took ‘mercury removing agents’ and had some kind of reaction. I think you had a reaction to whatever shit you have been pumping in your rectum.
            The fact that you still have MS and still have reactions to the chelating agents (which should lessen as you go, since they should be pulling out less mercury each time) seems to be proving my theory.

            Aluminum has been looked into by researchers on Alzheimer and shown not to be the cause. They have moved on to something else.

          • Are you taking anti-MS drugs, too, I hope?

          • ciaparker2

            No. They wanted me to take one when I was hospitalized for nearly a month with a paralyzing attack, but I refused. And then one, I’ve forgotten which, was taken off the market because it killed several people. I

          • Well, I hope the lack of treatment doesn’t hurt your quality of life too much. Being hospitalized for nearly a month does not sound good.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you. My quality of life is not very good, I’m often dizzy, wobbly, and weak. With no energy. I realized that the mercury poisoning also caused mito disorder (nothing better than mercury at causing it), so I hope when I get all or most of the mercury out I will be better. And the permanent severe insomnia is the worst, started… well, I can’t go into it now.
            The hospitalization was strange: my left arm and leg gradually became completely paralyzed and stayed that way for nearly a month, didn’t respond to the IV steroid treatment. They thought I wouldn’t recover the use of my arm and leg, but I was sure I would, and I did. But I didn’t feel dizzy during that attack, and I was able to read in bed at the hospital, a little hard because I couldn’t use my left hand to hold the book. My parents came every day to visit me, and my boyfriend every other day, several other friends came as well. It could have been worse.
            I’m afraid of pharma drugs. They’re all dangerous, and it would be for life. But I appreciate your sympathy.

          • Mike Stevens

            “The hospitalization was strange: my left arm and leg gradually became
            completely paralyzed and stayed that way for nearly a month, didn’t
            respond to the IV steroid treatment. They thought I wouldn’t recover the
            use of my arm and leg, but I was sure I would, and I did.”

            This is just more of your false memory/confabulation/cognitive dissonance, Cia.

            IV steroids are usually fairly effective for acute exacerbations of relapsing/remitting MS. Smetimes full neurological recovery results, sometimes a neurological deficit remains. It takes several weeks for the steroids to do their stuff, so a full response in “nearly a month” is quite consistent with the benefit from steroids.

            So what do you do? Instead of attributing your successful recovery to the steroids you got, you have twisted the tale around to make it appear as though you only got better through sheer will power, and that the steroids were a failure.

            How typical of you.

            PS: How old were you at the time of this attack?

          • Who?

            Why go to hospital though? Why take the steroids?

            It’s like those wretched home birthers who let their baby die inside them then rush off to hospital demanding to be saved.

          • Azuran

            For someone who has so much health problem and so little energy, you sure spend a lot of it here spouting nonsense and telling lies.

          • Mike Stevens

            The IV steroids seem to have done the trick (usual response time is 3-4 weeks). Of course, as you can see below, Cia says the steroids were a failure, and her own willpower overcame the attack.

            It’s reminiscent of cancer survivors attributing their cure to the kale smoothies they drank, and not the surgery and adjunctive chemotherapy they received.

            Typical Alt-Med state of mind.