Death, death and more death in a freebirth group

Grim reaper. Halloween

It’s not unusual for new mothers to seek out other new mothers for support. They share information and experiences about birth, breastfeeding, sleeping and the awe of having created a new life.

In contrast, in freebirth groups they share information about their dead babies. It’s not really surprising that there are lots of deaths in freebirth groups since freebirth (also known as unassisted childbirth or wild pregnancy) is birth without medical assistance of any kind. Even so, I’m surprised at just how many deaths there are.

How many babies have to die preventable deaths before these women wake up to the harm they are causing?

Several weeks ago I shared a story about a recent freebirth death of baby Journey Moon:

So the surges keep coming every day, but still no baby. Just making me more and more tired and my body ache everywhere. Nothing I could do would ease the pain but I tried so hard to stay positive.

My water broke the evening of the 4th and was discolored. Since I was 42 weeks I thought it was normal. But as the days went by it got more foul smelling and turned a sick poop color which was constantly leaking and the baby stopped moving on the 6th.

I woke on the 7th with so much pain and pouring meconium that Chris and I agreed it was time to transfer.

Not surprisingly, Journey Moon was dead.

The widespread publicity about that death did not stop another mother from letting her baby die at freebirth.

As Katie Paulson reported on Patheos, the mother reached out to her freebirth group after 6 nights of prodromal labor and 48 hours of ruptured membranes.

At this point, the mother is beginning to doubt her choice of moving forward with the labor at home. However, the group cheers her on, encourages her that the issues are normal, and provide suggestions to help the labor progress…

The mother seemed to be satisfied with the responses she received from her friends in the group. After a few exchanges, the mother left the conversation. Then the group went completely silent. For more than two days, members bumped the thread, tagged the mother, and tried to get her to respond to ensure she was ok.

She was okay but her baby was born dead.

Freebirth is an incredibly fringe practice yet there have been two deaths in just a few weeks. But that’s not all. In this particular freebirth group of only 400 members, 3 others immediately responded with stories about the deaths of THEIR babies.

5B07BFBA-0686-411E-AECC-5E10D3352513

It has been 4 years since my daughter was born sleeping… I’m here if you need to talk.

And:

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I lost my daughter at 8 hours old 11 weeks ago to group B streptococcus.

And this:

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We will be praying for you! My son died shortly after birth in June…

Notice a theme? Lots of women have let their babies die in a cult-like devotion to a bizarre practice that has no parallel in other times, places and cultures.

I know that freebirthers are emotionally immature: supremely egotistical, reflexively defiant of authority, unwilling to admit mistakes, incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions and entirely devoid of any empathy for their suffering babies. Even so, they should be capable of learning. The only question is how many babies have to die preventable deaths before these women wake up to the harm they are causing.

  • MaineJen

    For the last time, we are NOT going to visit your stupid blog and listen to you crow about how you danced upon the grave of a baby who didn’t have to die.

  • Azuran

    Seriously, you brag about this ‘one little death’ helping with your book sales and now flouce boldly to go dancing and signing?
    A baby is dead, you freaking monster

  • Eater of Worlds

    I wouldn’t be surprised. Sending death threats seems to be the thing to do these days when you disagree with anyone’s actions or opinion. The only reason that the president doesn’t get them is because you can be arrested for that.

    • Farmer MD

      I think if she is going to make such allegations, she should show some SS.

  • Eater of Worlds

    The woman is now complaining that people are giving her shit online for her actions. I don’t condone the threats of any kind, from the death threats to minor things, but I can’t really disagree with those who say she’s the reason her baby died. I just don’t agree with how they are attacking her.

    Articles on the mother

    For your tabloid needs: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6368205/Woman-branded-baby-killer-daughter-died-free-birth.html

    Less tabloidy: https://www.thedailybeast.com/she-wanted-a-freebirth-at-home-when-the-baby-died-the-attacks-began?ref=scroll

    Non tabloidy: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2018/10/13815/

    • Anna

      The accusation seems to be being made that its the people who exposed the story that were sending the death threats and there is zero evidence of that.

  • space_upstairs

    Well…after reading a good chunk of this thread, it’s impressive how deep the faith of the devout conspiracy theorist can get, to conclude that it is no worse for an up-until-then healthy term fetus to undergo a brutal stillbirth than to be brought into this world as a live baby who will allegedly end up feeble and miserable due to exposure to modern food and medicine. I do not consider myself feeble and miserable in general, but it cannot technically be proven that I would not have been smarter and free of seasonal allergies and bad days had I not been exposed to my mother’s epidural, formula after 3 months, vaccines or conventional food. Therefore, there is no way to win an argument with such people, only to have personal quiet confidence that they could no more win an argument with you.

  • Heidi

    OT but I am not digging Disqus responses. I accidentally hit “angry” when trying to scroll in my phone and it can’t be undone. Facebook lets you undo reactions.

  • Cynthia

    I think this calls for what I call the “orange pylon” approach.

    At some point, the rabbit hole of crazy is just way too deep, and they aren’t getting out. The best you can do is put up some orange pylons to warn others so they don’t fall in.

    Quoting her directly “Hilary Clinton is a Luciferian child molester who likes to eat children” and pizzagate should warn anyone of the type of “advice” that she is likely to provide.

  • Hillary Clinton is a Luciferian child molester who likes to eat children.

    It would have been open season on the worlds children if she was POTUS and John Podesta was Secretary of State.

    The Clinton Foundation is the hub for the worldwide sex trafficking of children.

    These are facts.

    https://bloggingmothersmagazine.com/2018/08/25/pizzagate-citizen-journalism/

    • Heidi

      Family separation, Hatchlet. . .

    • MaineJen

      Wow, um………

      Get help.

      • namaste

        Okay, we are clearly trying to reason with an off-the-rails nutcase.

        • RudyTooty

          Just catching on now?

    • namaste

      Lady, you need a psychiatrist. In a major way.

  • Google #Frazzledrip

    I dare you…

  • MaineJen

    Wow um…at this point, maybe facebook should at least step in and shut this group down? They are, after all, dispensing medical advice that is resulting in multiple deaths.

    • Daleth

      Seconding this. What are the mechanics of such a shutdown? Does a FB member (member of FB, not necessarily member of the group) have to make a complaint?

      • rational thinker

        They might not be able to shut it down. Theses people will just start with the constitution and freedom of speech and violation of rights.

        • KQ not signed in

          Free speech does not mean freedom from consequences .

          The first amendment does not apply to Facebook. Facebook is a privately owned company. That said, they might refuse to act due to “negative publicity” which is not related to the constitution.

          • RudyTooty

            FB might refuse to act because they’re in the business of making money.

          • rational thinker

            youre probably right

          • Sarah

            Absolutely. There isn’t a right to free speech on facebook.

        • Daleth

          Free speech is completely irrelevant on social media. It just means that the government can’t outlaw speech. Facebook can ban whatever it wants.

    • RudyTooty

      Some suggest that Facebook was instrumental the Rohinga genocide.

      Pretty sure FB doesn’t give two shits about a few freebirthers.

      Not disagreeing with your sentiment, but there’s a fairly good argument that FB is a death machine. In general.

      • KQ not signed in

        Oh, I wasn’t suggesting Facebook WOULD do anything. Just that they COULD.

        I think they WON’T though.

    • Azuran

      If enough people report them, they could shut it down. It’s unlikely that the people who monitor facebook are just going to randomly stumble upon this group, since there are bilions of fb private groups.
      But even if they did shut the group down, the admins will just make another group. If they shut that one down, they’ll make another one. If they ban an admin, someone else will make the group. If their account gets ban, they can just make another one with a new email address.
      It’s really not going to do much.

      • Farmer MD

        They have left FB and started their own private platform, charging $108 for the pleasure. Freebirth isn’t so free after all.

        • Heidi

          I’m curious if they could actually be held culpable in the event of another birth gone sideways now that they are charging. Seems like the legal rules might change when they are taking money to offer advice.

  • BeatriceC

    OT: MrC’s daughter had her baby yesterday! He’s perfect. There were some worrisome moment’s the previous two weeks, and he arrived via scheduled CS. The gestational mom, the other mom, and baby are all doing well. He’s a tiny peanut, at just under 7 pounds, and we really couldn’t be more thrilled to be grandparents. We got to be his first visitors. MrC stood next to his daughter’s bed while she was holding the little squish and just couldn’t speak for several minutes. While we were there, he needed a diaper change and I asked if I could do it, and they said yes. I don’t know if they realized it, but changing the diaper of an hours old squish is something I never got to do, since all of mine were rushed away to NICU, so them letting me do that was a wonderful thing.

    • Griffin

      How lovely! Congratulations!

    • Chi

      Wonderful news, I’m glad he arrived safe and sound. I hope he continues to grow and thrive and have many more wonderful moments with his doting grandparents 🙂

      All the best to you and your family.

    • demodocus

      Congrats again! I suspect you’re gonna love grandma status 🙂

    • Box of Salt

      Congratulations to the whole family!

    • Mazal tov, Granny!

    • StephanieJR

      Congratulations!

    • BeatriceC

      Thank you all! We are quite smitten. Hopefully the new family should be going home tomorrow. I think we’re visiting again this afternoon. We got to be his first visitors Saturday evening and we were so very thrilled.

      • rational thinker

        congratulations

      • rosewater1

        Belated congratulations to you and yours!

  • HailieJade

    I honestly just can’t wrap my head around the fact that “freebirthing” is even a thing. It makes absolutely zero sense on any level whatsoever, and spits directly in the faces of every single woman who has ever given birth since the dawn of time, literally since homo sapiens jumped down from the trees and started walking upright on two legs. Homebirth is bad enough but at least I can kind of see the reasoning behind it (however fatally flawed) but to not be attended by *anyone*, not even some hippy dippy hairy midwife you met at yoga??

    The only conclusion I’ve reached is that it’s simply a product of our times. Modern humans really are so spoilt and lead such a sheltered, comfortable existence compared to 99.99% of humans who have ever existed before now, that we now have the “luxury” of being able to pull thoroughly dangerous stunts like giving birth unassisted, something our ancestors would have been utterly horrified by, all for the sake of feeling “special”. Our g-g-g-great-grandmothers didn’t have the time to worry about feeling unique- they were too busy trying to keep their families alive during the famine/war/plague etc. Now everyone wants to feel unique and special, but unfortunately not everyone has the brains to actually do anything genuinely unique or special (I mean we can’t all be Stephen Hawking!) So those people freebirth and end up with dead babies.

    So yoo-neek, guys!!

    • Box of Salt

      But HallieJade, if you succeed at freebirthing, you get to lord it over the rest of us for the rest of your life! Just see Jenny Marie Hatch’s comments and her linked blog! You’ll get to brag about it forever!

      And your kid can, too!

      Because obviously the most important thing in a 16-year-old boy’s life is that fact that his mother decided to brag about how he was born! For all sixteen years!

      • HailieJade

        LOL! 😉 As I said, people not smart enough to actually do anything special but with an over-inflated sense of self importance latch onto freebirth and milk it for all it’s worth for as long as they possibly can because they know, deep down, it’s the only thing they’ll ever actually achieve in life. And I guess as the years go on they convince themselves that being able to say “My mum freebirthed me!” is the equivalent or better than “My mum works for NASA” or “My mum writes award winning scripts for Hollywood” to the average teenage boy. Pure delusion.

        • One of the greatest joys in my life is hearing updates from parents who I influenced to have a freebirth! I would have considered influencing even one family to give birth alone a win, but the fact that I have influenced thousands of couples to give birth autonomously has been one of the greatest accomplishments of my life as a childbirth educator.

          The love, light, and peace that emanates from these families never stops!

          Conversely I have watched the utter destruction and malevolence that erupts as mothers melt down from obstetric birth trauma into post partum depression, anxiety disorders, detachment from babes, and neglect of older children and parental responsibilities while she attempts to cope with birth rape.

          The neverending ripples from her being drugged, needlessly cut, sutured, and bullied by nursing staff flow out into society with this tidal wave of disability, destruction, and devastation that contributes to the breakdown of the family and the ripping of the fabric of our humanity.

          Quite a legacy!

          You bet your ass I am proud of breaking free from the birth plantation.

          It has been one of the signature accomplishments of my life.

          Enjoy your medical slavery…

          I am FREE!

          • Sue

            “Childbirth educator”

            “PhD”

            This person has delusions of grandeur.

          • Griffin

            narcissism
            noun
            excessive interest in or admiration of oneself.
            PSYCHOLOGY
            extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one’s own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
            PSYCHOANALYSIS
            self-centredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder.

          • Ummm…

            I am the first one to admit that I am a psycho, I wrote a book about it: https://www.amazon.com/Mothers-Journey-Healing-Partum-Psychosis-ebook/dp/B002KAO6V2

            The only question at this point is why ignorant dolts like you believe all the pap that Dr. Amy is selling?

            Talk about delusion. She wonders why mothers are not born with a zipper on the tummy to allow ob’s to just unzip for $30,000.00 and zip back up good as new.

            Ack!

            A certain divinity is achieved when a child is born in a gush of orgasmic hormones instead of being infused with adrenaline and terror as mother is traumatized and needlessly tortured.

            But rock on bro. You duped know it alls can just keep blindly following this most disgusting pied piper all the way to hell.

            I know what I know and I understand exactly how beneficial this lifestyle is to families.

          • Sorry, I assumed you were a male…

          • I’ll never understand this continual demonizing of medical intervention as scary and terrorizing and torturing. It’s like… it’s only scary if you don’t understand it. It’s like being afraid of the dentist. I mean most people would rather have Novocaine and a skilled hand than try and free-drill their cavities. Why is the idea of an epidural or a C-section so frightening? If a woman says “I’m looking forward to my hospital birth. I feel safe with all the doctors and technology,” where is the rationale for trying to make her NOT want what she wants?

          • LaMont

            In the Bible – god heals. Trying to involve humanity’s *learned* skill as opposed to giving up your life into god’s hands is seen as inherently sinful. That’s the rationale, at least here in this fundie hellscape this comment thread is in.

          • Sarah

            I completely agree with your last point, but having had a CS myself and found it non-drastic, I do see why people aren’t keen on the idea of having their abdomens cut into. For most of human history, that has had pretty negative connotations! And safe surgery really is such a recent advance for us as a species. No great shock that a bit of that residual mentality would be hanging around still.

          • Oh I’m not at all knocking the people who don’t want one for themselves. Fear can be a very visceral thing. I just don’t understand why people insist on trying to change the minds of those who AREN’T scared, to INSTILL a irrational fear where none already exists.

          • Sarah

            No, I don’t get that either.

          • RudyTooty

            Have you considered that our beliefs might be based on our own thought, reasoning, training, understanding of science, and a grasp of common reality instead of merely on words written on someone’s blog?

          • Griffin

            I wonder if Jenny Marie is having some sort of mental breakdown. When I quoted the definition of narcissism, she agreed that she is well known for being mentally unwell, and provided a link to some book she wrote about it.

            Her bizarre paranoid phraseology reminds me strongly of when my normally reasonable bipolar cousin went off her meds.

            Or maybe she just refuses help.

            I’m not sure she can understand anyone, let alone understands that her advice and actions are reckless and dangerous.

            Of course we should continue to push that she accept responsibility for her actions.

            I feel very concerned about people like Jenny Marie. Left unchecked, women like her will cause their acolytes and their babies terrible harm.

            Please, Dr. Tuteur, keep pressing on this issue.

          • RudyTooty

            I think the realm of freebirthers used to be dominated by people with extreme beliefs who only exposed themselves to others with similar extreme beliefs – and stayed in those enclaves.

            With our ability to communicate and spread propaganda online, this message (and others) becomes less extreme seeming, and more normalized.

            Someone like Emilee Saldaya just seems like your average granola-eating, kombucha-drinking yoga instructor – and therefore more trustworthy than your religious wingnut libertarian neighbor.

            Jenny Marie may be having some mental health issues – and I hope she is okay. Yes, her behavior is similar to others who are entering an active phase of BPD. I don’t know that that’s the case or not. Who knows what brought her here.

            As far as who makes a stronger persuasive case for giving birth at home unassisted – I think it’s the crunchy so-called feminists with Freebirth Society and Indie Birth who are the most compelling to ‘average’ people.

            And they recruit affluent people who can afford stylized births, complete with professional photographers – every time they do something at home that is reckless – but where the baby survives – they create stunning pieces of visual and emotional propaganda to go with it.

            Those are the people who frighten me.

          • rational thinker

            After seeing all her posts I think she is looking for attention or is seriously ill to the point of paranoid delusions maybe due to years of untreated bipolar. My husband was in a church cult and they would tell him he did not have mental illness and if he did that jesus already healed him. When I got him out of there he was in serious trouble mentally. I think that may be what is happening here.I am worried for people that have to physically be around her.

          • Griffin

            Me too.

          • rational thinker

            She reminds me of allison dixley

          • I refuse to be shamed for grasping my freedom and instead of slunking away into my circle of friends to whisper how evil Dr. T is, I choose and have chosen over the years to respond when challenged about my lifestyle choices.

            The past few years my blogging efforts have been devoted to child trafficking and I have not spent as much time on birth activism. That being said, I wholeheartedly support and endorse Emilee Saldaya and her efforts around the promotion of Freebirth. I also love Indie Birth and Ancient Art midwifery.

            I have struggled mightily with mental illness. I am not ashamed of that either and have openly shared my stories on many forums.

            As a survivor of gang rape, incest, and ritual abuse who was sold a couple times for sex as a toddler, admittedly, I have issues.

            But I also have a voice and some clarity on who behaves as a cult, with groupthink, severe neverending consequences for those who are non-conformists, and a top down CONTROL over women’s bodies and minds.

            Hint… The Obstetric profession is a cult. A very expensive, soul shattering cult.

            As I said, I am free and if even one person is influenced by a few comments on Dr. T’s blog, THAT is why I take the time to respond to her blatherings.

            I also would like to have my grandchildren’s parents enabled to choose what is best for them, up to and including freebirth.

            Twenty years ago a few of us birth activists were wondering if we were going to lose normal birth completely.

            I am much more optimistic because of the increasing popularity of freebirth and homebirth all over the world. It has been joyful to witness this next generation of moms grasping their sexuality.

            Each baby born free is a miracle.

          • Who?

            Aah…the smell of burning martyr in the morning.

          • Cynthia

            Each baby born alive and well is a miracle.

            I know the devastation I felt after a late miscarriage 20 years ago.

            A year later, the depression and anxiety magically disappeared and were replaced by utter joy as my first baby was born and I heard her first cry. Her birth was perfect. A planned c-section enabled me to have that moment of pure bliss. Another c-section with her sister ended with gratitude as I realized that there was no way that a vaginal birth would have gone well with a complete breech presentation and a cord wrapped 3x around the neck. These are my miracle kids, alive and healthy and bringing me joy every day.

          • Box of Salt

            Jenny Marie Hatch “I have . . . some clarity on who behaves as a cult, with groupthink, severe neverending
            consequences for those who are non-conformists, and a top down CONTROL over women’s bodies and minds.”

            Yet, in another comment you posted that you are a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

            I don’t believe you have as much clarity as you believe you do.

          • You are an Anti-Mormon hater. As much hate as I have experienced for my birth choices and for being an anti-vaxxer, it does not even come close to the hate I have experienced for being LDS.

            Just pretend I am an acceptable minority. It might make it easier for you to accept the bigot you are every time you look in the mirror.

            Cult? My faith is all about learning correct principles and governing myself, thankyou very much.

            You gals in the epidural/antidepressant cult should take a step back and really think through the long term consequences of your choices on the babes you gestate.

          • Box of Salt

            Jenny Marie Hatch “take a step back and really think through the long term consequences of your choices”

            Back at you.

          • Who?

            JMH has Jesus for that. She believes she’s on the right side of the rapture-or whatever her brand of protestantism calls it-so consequences aren’t a big thing for her.

            I got a smile out of the notion that she thinks that ‘governing myself’ is really what’s going on.

          • You think you know more about my beloved faith than I do?

            I have read The Book of Mormon dozens of times. I know what my baptismal and temple covenants mean and every day I work hard to stay true to the things I have promised to do.

            No one is holding a gun to my head forcing me to attend church every week, fulfill my calling as ward choir director or compelling me to live my life centered around the teachings of Jesus Christ.

            But there are tens of thousands of women who have been bullied and court ordered into having c sections, forced meds, chemo, and the whole gamut of medical procedures all done in the name of “health” with courts, lawyers, police, prisons, and guns backing up those legal documents.

            You are so caught up in the medical death cult, you cannot see the forest for the trees.

            Do you understand how many people needlessly die each year because of properly prescribed meds?

            My religion is everything to me.

            My apostasy from the church of modern medicine, a blood cult that runs off the pelvic goldmine attached to mothers wombs, was one of the greatest choices of my life.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Are all the Mormon women who avail themselves of modern medicine Bad Mormons then? Because most of them do to some extent. My best friend’s Mormon sister-in-law just had a baby. In a hospital. (They’re both doing great.)

          • MaineJen

            I personally know a Mormon woman with 4 kids who had NO interest in natural birth. Epidurals for every one. I guess she’s just “doing it wrong.”

          • Sue Donym

            The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints endorses modern medicine. Elder Dallin H. Oaks said, “Latter-day Saints believe in applying the best available scientific knowledge and techniques. We enlist the help of healing practitioners, such as
            physicians and surgeons, to restore health.” The
            current prophet is a world-renowned heart surgeon. At age 95, former president Gordon B. Hinckley chose to have chemotherapy to treat his cancer.

            Church curriculum for women says, “A woman should visit a doctor or a health clinic as soon as she suspects that she is pregnant. Doctors
            and nurses are trained to recognize problems that may arise during pregnancy. Therefore, it is wise to have regular checkups.”

            In 1978 the First Presidency issued an official statement which said, “We urge members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to protect their own children through immunization. Then they may wish to join other public-spirited citizens in efforts to eradicate ignorance and apathy that have caused the disturbingly low levels of
            childhood immunization.” That statement is still Church policy. The Church has donated millions of dollars and volunteer hours to provide vaccinations for children throughout the world, including the US.

            And yes, the Church supports the judicious use of medication for depression when prescribed by a physician.

          • swbarnes2

            Okay, but it’s not hard for a person to decide that something their religion frowns on has to be bad science, and that their favorite form of quackery really is scientifically valid. I’m sure Catholics who refuse to give abortions to women whose pregnancies might kill them, and think that birth control pills don’t work really think they are working in accordance with best medical practices and scientific beliefs.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Rates of antidepressant use are actually really high among LDS…not casting aspersions, just pointing out that many who share your religion are also in the “antidepressant cult.”

          • Griffin

            “I have struggled mightily with mental illness. I am not ashamed of that”

            You certainly don’t need to be ashamed of your mental ill-health but have you considered that your mental illness means that you are not thinking rationally and that you are therefore a danger to others?

            A pertinent example here is that you advocate freebirth despite the fact that even homebirth (at least SOMEONE is there) in the USA associates with a 4-fold greater risk of death for the child. Do you not see your advocacy for such a dangerous practice as being irresponsible and very cruel to the babies? Do you not have enough of a conscience to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong in your thinking?

            “As I said, I am free and if even one person is influenced by a few comments on Dr. T’s blog, THAT is why I take the time to respond to her blatherings.”

            I hope you continue to comment because with your every response, you make it clear that you are deranged and irresponsible. The vast majority of women care deeply that their baby is born healthy and alive, and they will know from your comments and our responses that freebirth is a very dangerous cult practice that is driven by mentally unwell women.

            “The Obstetric profession is a cult. A very expensive, soul shattering cult.”

            You are PROJECTING your own motivations onto the obstetric profession. No one considers it a cult, in fact, the vast majority of human society embraces it gladly for saving the lives of women and babies. YOU belong to a cult, not us.

          • Farmer MD

            Your comments and conduct do more damage to the call for Freebirth than any efforts against it could. I’m sure your light just shines on the cold faces of babies born dead for no reason whatsoever. Your love and light is not ever going to be enough to fill the void you have helped create. The cold, lonely noise when a dead baby doesn’t cry. The crushing realisation that you are holding a dead baby and it’s your fault, and people like you, the cheerleader, the women who claim false expertise are nowhere to be found. No accountability. The parents are left alone in silence. Deafening silence. No baby. No support.

            You are selling a dream weaved on a bed of lies. Saying we won’t help when things go wrong is blatantly false, another lieyou tell in the pursuit of another dead baby. You like anecdotes so much, I can tell you from experience, we help. Where are you? Nowhere to be found. Just as Emilee washed the blood and merconium from her hands, she ran so fast she pushed this mother away before the baby was cold. For any woman who may currently be Freebirthing and feeling scared, you are right to feel scared, not because you now know you need help, we will help you, don’t let your baby die or yourself or your wife because you think we will take your baby and you will be charged, you won’t. It’s not illegal to Freebirth. It’s an unnecessary risk, you are allowed to want a live baby.

            So yes I want to stop the ridiculousness that is Freebirth, not free choice. Stop lying. Stop telling woman that mummy intuition is all they need. It’s simply not true. You are not empowering women, you are killing babies. As evidenced by your traumatic past, you want women to suffer. You want them to pay with their babies lives for the sins of women who didn’t protect you. You’re a dangerous woman and the need to stop you overrides any sympathy that I may of had for you.

          • You know nothing about what motivates me, armchair psychiatrist.

            Because I have articulated the freedom argument many, many couples have broken out of your mind numbing cult and have healed the broken and disabled parts of their bodies and brains that resulted from interfacing with the medical birth machine.

            So many young mothers leave your hospitals having experienced extreme trauma and some go on to experience profound levels of PTSD.

            And as you scientists claim to “be waiting with open arms to heal” the homebirths that are less than ideal, we in the freebirth movement are also contributing to the healing of bodies, minds, and marriages as couples work through past birth traumas and learn for themsleves the principles of autonomous birth.

            Next time you cash your comfortable paycheck think about all the babes who didn’t properly bond with Mom, who weren’t breastfed, who landed in the NICU because of too many meds and remember, it was TOXIC assembly line birth that contributed to all that wreckage.

            Emilee Saldaya is a HERO, because you know what?

            If she is to blame for one fetal death then she also gets the credit for the hundreds of children who have been born perfectly at home to ecstatic parents who listened to her podcast or joined her facebook group.

            Your self righteous sanctimonious posture is typical of the “if only you would have come to us, NONE of this would have happened” MD professionals who have lived deliciously off the money generated by the hospital birth cult.

            It is an interesting choice of words to compare a proponant of feebirth to a sinner.

            Last time I checked the Ten Commandments Thou shalt not promote Freebirth was not number 11.

            Robert Mendelson had it right when he compared your profession to a church, with accompanying sacraments and blood sacrifices.

            And commandments, bloody commandments, the first of which is…

            Thou shalt not give birth at home…

            Or all these bright eyed and bushy tailed young nurses and doctors with $75,000.00 in student loans may not be able to free themselves from indentured servitude to the government and I may not be able to enjoy my blissful retirement!!!

            Cut the sanctimonious crap about concern for babies and tell the truth… you are worried about being able to pay your bills if even ten percent of families choose homebirth over what you are selling.

            I preach personal responsibility and owning your own life.

            Freebirthers are not afraid of birth.

            We are deeply concerned about an overwhelming legalistic machine waiting to pounce with lawyers, courts, judges, police, social workers, jails, prisons, CPS, and the complete and total destruction of our lives and marriages when all we wanted was a gentle birth at home and the right and privilege of nurturing our own children without busybodies stepping in to frustrate us at every juncture.

            Me… dangerous?

            Ha!

          • rosewater1

            So one fetal death doesn’t matter? As long as there are babies who live?

            You have no soul.

            Nor do you have ANY idea of what goes on in a NICU.

            Yes, you are dangerous. But with your tripe about sovereign births, etc. you are becoming a parody-albeit a dangerous one.

            You are a attention whoring fearmonger.

          • The only tool I have at my disposal is language and a screaming fast internet connection.

            Your side has all the money, power, credentials, authority, reputation, and will to lord it over Families with your arrogance and threats of Medical Neglect.

            Based on the blowback my family has experienced since 1991, the powers that be consider those of us who educate parents on their legal rights around bodily integrity ARE the biggest threat to their bottom line.

            This debate is not about dead babies dumbass, it is about FREEDOM!

            ANY conversation about Rape Culture has to include the coercive powers of the medical profession to compel moms to submit to the whole gamut of medical interventions waiting for her in an obstetric birthing suite.

            Here are my thoughts on Rape Culture: https://youtu.be/vR1lmJFYjAM

          • MaineJen

            “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” Lying to people about the dangers of birthing at home, alone, far from help.

          • Dr. Amy’s censors are now kicking in.

            Nobody gets to respond to a DOCTOR, who must have the final word on everything.

            So this comment hit the spam folder…

            You know nothing about what motivates me, armchair psychiatrist.
            Because I have articulated the freedom argument many, many couples have broken out of your mind numbing cult and have healed the broken and disabled parts of their bodies and brains that resulted from interfacing with the medical birth machine.
            So many young mothers leave your hospitals having experienced extreme trauma and some go on to experience profound levels of PTSD.
            And as you scientists claim to “be waiting with open arms to heal” the homebirths that are less than ideal, we in the freebirth movement are also contributing to the healing of bodies, minds, and marriages as couples work through past birth traumas and learn for themsleves the principles of autonomous birth.
            Next time you cash your comfortable paycheck think about all the babes who didn’t properly bond with Mom, who weren’t breastfed, who landed in the NICU because of too many meds and remember, it was TOXIC assembly line birth that contributed to all that wreckage.
            Emilee Saldaya is a HERO, because you know what?
            If she is to blame for one fetal death then she also gets the credit for the hundreds of children who have been born perfectly at home to ecstatic parents who listened to her podcast or joined her facebook group.
            Your self righteous sanctimonious posture is typical of the “if only you would have come to us, NONE of this would have happened” MD professionals who have lived deliciously off the money generated by the hospital birth cult.
            It is an interesting choice of words to compare a proponant of feebirth to a sinner.
            Last time I checked the Ten Commandments Thou shalt not promote Freebirth was not number 11.
            Robert Mendelson had it right when he compared your profession to a church, with accompanying sacraments and blood sacrifices.
            And commandments, bloody commandments, the first of which is…
            Thou shalt not give birth at home…
            Or all these bright eyed and bushy tailed young nurses and doctors with $75,000.00 in student loans may not be able to free themselves from indentured servitude to the government and I may not be able to enjoy my blissful retirement!!!
            Cut the sanctimonious crap about concern for babies and tell the truth… you are worried about being able to pay your bills if even ten percent of families choose homebirth over what you are selling.
            I preach personal responsibility and owning your own life.
            Freebirthers are not afraid of birth.
            We are deeply concerned about an overwhelming legalistic machine waiting to pounce with lawyers, courts, judges, police, social workers, jails, prisons, CPS, and the complete and total destruction of our lives and marriages when all we wanted was a gentle birth at home and the right and privilege of nurturing our own children without busybodies stepping in to frustrate us at every juncture.
            Me… dangerous?
            Ha!

            In reponse to Farmer MD who said:

            Your comments and conduct do more damage to the call for Freebirth than any efforts against it could. I’m sure your light just shines on the cold faces of babies born dead for no reason whatsoever. Your love and light is not ever going to be enough to fill the void you have helped create. The cold, lonely noise when a dead baby doesn’t cry. The crushing realisation that you are holding a dead baby and it’s your fault, and people like you, the cheerleader, the women who claim false expertise are nowhere to be found. No accountability. The parents are left alone in silence. Deafening silence. No baby. No support.
            You are selling a dream weaved on a bed of lies. Saying we won’t help when things go wrong is blatantly false, another lieyou tell in the pursuit of another dead baby. You like anecdotes so much, I can tell you from experience, we help. Where are you? Nowhere to be found. Just as Emilee washed the blood and merconium from her hands, she ran so fast she pushed this mother away before the baby was cold. For any woman who may currently be Freebirthing and feeling scared, you are right to feel scared, not because you now know you need help, we will help you, don’t let your baby die or yourself or your wife because you think we will take your baby and you will be charged, you won’t. It’s not illegal to Freebirth. It’s an unnecessary risk, you are allowed to want a live baby.
            So yes I want to stop the ridiculousness that is Freebirth, not free choice. Stop lying. Stop telling woman that mummy intuition is all they need. It’s simply not true. You are not empowering women, you are killing babies. As evidenced by your traumatic past, you want women to suffer. You want them to pay with their babies lives for the sins of women who didn’t protect you. You’re a dangerous woman and the need to stop you overrides any sympathy that I may of had for you.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            According to Disqus you have a low reputation so it autonomatically sends many of your posts to spam. I pull them out.

          • Thanks! Good to know…

          • Who?

            So by what genius do you know when medical help is needed-as you concede it sometimes is?

            Or do you leave it to the mama then blame her for ‘giving in’ when everything ends up fine, or ‘leaving it too late/missing a vital sign/trusting the wrong ebil doctor’ when it doesn’t?

          • Mothers have intuition about their children and we encourage them to use it.

          • swbarnes2

            The story that touched off this thread sure shows your point. This mother had so much intuition, she let her baby die despite days of obvious signs that something was wrong.

          • Who?

            Oh but according to JMH this mother really wasn’t doing freebirth right, or she might not even be a real person who was pregnant at all.

            Journey Moon’s death is, according to JMH, evidence of nothing.

          • None of us have any guarantees in life.

            Doctors demand that I as a woman of faith transfer all of the trust that I have in my Savior Jesus Christ and trust THEM to make certain all will be well with me and my children.

            The trust birth crowd wants me to also replace my faith in Christ with a wobbly hippyish faith in the birth process.

            I reject both paradigms.

            I am always working to refine my listening skills as a mother to learn how to be of the most help to my children.

            Four of them are adults, but I still have that inner knowing when something is off in their lives.

            My biggest frustration when I was pregnant and nursing my babes was that I OFTEN left my various interactions with medical people in tears because just about everything they wanted and expected me to do went against everything I felt guided by my intuition to do.

            As I divorced myself from their influence, and really from the influence of all well meaning busy bodies who were more than happy to tell me how to live (like my own mother), I found a level of satisfaction and happiness in my parenting that was truly joyfull.

            Parents today are WAY too willing to listen to so called “experts”.

            I trust the advice of a mom who has raised a large healthy happy family WAY more than any doctor or midwife.

            I ache for any mom who has a poor outcome no matter where the birth takes place.

          • Who?

            It’s a shame you left the doctor’s surgery crying, makes me wonder how you were going in, as most of us are not at our sparkling best when at the doctor, or otherwise we wouldn’t be there.

            Doctors don’t want to tell you how to live. They advise, and tell you in words of one syllable or less what may be the ramifications of choosing to not take that advice. They won’t give you another thought once you walk out the door, which is as it should be.

            You are one of those well-meaning busybodies, just, in fact, like your own mother.

            Save your aching for the baby who stewed to death in an amniotic sac full of meconium and pus. The mother got what she wanted, then what she chose: just not in the way she imagined.

          • I was mostly referring to my various trips to the pediatrician, when I was talking about tears…

            I still HIGHLY question the narrative of that “stewed to death for DAYS” story.

            I am officially calling it a hoax.

            Does anyone know that gal in real life?

          • Who?

            Surely your children’s trips to the paediatrician? And why would hearing things you knew going in you were going to disagree with make you cry? Your ultimate decision to not go was far more about your own comfort than your children’s health.

            I doubt you will find this material compelling, but I share it for completeness: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2018/11/15339/?fbclid=IwAR0VyCDtpPoeEx7hMsc4AYfja5s_B3ka6JbaY3V9J5qMclXZ-EnDJbwMAlY

          • I did NOT know going in that I was going to disagree.

            When I was a young mom I was all in with drugs and surgery.

            But back then, in the late 80’s, the idea that there was an alternative to antibiotics for croup was a big fight between me and a pediatrician I went to.

            She wanted to force an antibiotic and I wanted to use a few herbal remedies first.

            Tears.

            Extended breastfeeding?

            Tears.

            Tandem nursing?

            Tears.

            Co-Sleeping?

            Tears.

            I finally gave up in frustration and stopped the well baby visits with my third child.

            And guess what?

            My children lived!

          • Who?

            So why go to the doctor before trying your herbal remedies? Or why not have the appointment, take the kid home, try the herbal remedies, then if the kid isn’t better in a few days, fill the script and administer the antibiotics.

            You went in to the doctor knowing better, and wanting to be told you knew better, then got all tetchy when you weren’t validated.

            I’ve never in my life walked into a room seeking advice and walked out in tears. I’ve often walked out not excited by the advice, but that’s no reason for a tantrum.

            Your kids survived-have a cookie.

          • I did not have a freaking tantrum, I left weeping tears of frustration that every good and positive thing my mothers intuition was telling me would be good for bonding with my children was dangerous and potentially deadly.

            Frustrated tears are not a tetchy meltdown.

            When I decided to go solo with my fourth pregnancy I felt this overwhelming calm take over my life.

            That quiet confidence has been steady now for 22 years.

            I suppose I despise the medical profession the most for messing with parents abilities to bond with their babes.

            The long term devastation is real and deadly.

          • Who?

            ‘Weeping tears of frustration’ is exactly what a tantrum is. Exactly. Children tantrum when they are frustrated ie can’t cope with the inputs, which is exactly what you did.

            The more interesting question is, why so frustrated? If you learn that something you think is important is potentially deadly, the healthy way to go is to rethink it. By all means have a tantrum first if it helps you, but then get your big girl pants on and decide if the risk is worth it. Your way is to deny the validity of the input.

            Of course you felt calm when you decided to block out and ignore everyone who disagreed with you.

            We agree that the devastation is real-but I’m concerned about dead babies, and children exposed to illness and injury by parents who can’t take advice because their own identity is so very fragile. For you, it’s all about what you went through.

            By the way, back to the very great inconveniece of Journey Moon for a moment-do you still say she (and maybe her mother) never existed?

          • No, I understand she is a real person and that a baby died.

            I question the narrative, the set up of Emilee, the screen grabs, the snoops gathering evidence, and the media rollout.

            You know the whole if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…then it is probably a complete psychological operation designed to malign and denigrate freebirthers who demand our rights of autonomy and self determination which creates a problem for the medical profession because you have this worldwide army of doctors and nurses who are being trained to do birth with drugs and surgery and here is this large group of moms proving that what you are teaching about birth is hokum.

            I get it.

            We are a finanacial threat to your bottom line.

            And at the end of the day it is ALWAYS about the money…

          • Who?

            This should be a featured comment.

            Anyone wondering if freebirth is for them, would surely be put off by your dismissal of the dead baby and launch into conspiracy theories.

            I hear Emilee is charging now, so on that one point there may be a grain of reality.

          • Well, let’s see how far the media blitz goes.

            That will be the tell of what is really going on.

            You guys should get Jim Acosta to cover this important story. He has tons of street cred as a legitimate journalist and word on the street is that he now has some free time.

            Bwa ha ha haaaa….

            https://youtu.be/6d2hubDwoOw

          • MaineJen

            ….so now we’re a psy op?

            Lady, do you understand that you’re about a centimeter away from standing in front of a giant map with red strings pinned on?

            We’re people. And honestly, you freebirthers are such a small community. If so many babies weren’t DYING, we wouldn’t bother ourselves about you at all.

          • Azuran

            Oh classic, so now you are denying the existence of the dead baby.

          • MaineJen

            TL/DR

          • Cynthia

            But she gave herself a PhD in mothering! /s

            Never mind the fact that I could do the same – after all, I’ve had kids too, who are quite awesome.

            I don’t do that, though, because I realize that a sample size consisting of one mother and 3 teens is not exactly data. I know what worked for us, and also know that I’m not an expert on what is likely to work for other people. That’s where actual evidence and studies are useful. Real evidence, like the kind of studies that get published in peer-reviewed medical journals. Not Jennie’s kind of “evidence”, which seems to consist of believing the Pizzagate hoax (the one that nearly got perfectly innocent people killed) and spreading paranoid posts claiming that perfectly ordinary things indicate pedophilia and cannabalism.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Okay, fine, so you think medicine and hospitals are evil. But why on earth would you advocate for unassisted birth? In my observation, most women who get into homebirth without medical intervention are attracted to the idea because they want to be “traditional” or “natural.” Unassisted birth can make no claim to being either one. Birth attendants of some kind have been part of the birthing process in every culture and in every time period because people recognize that birth can be dangerous and requires support from people who have specialized knowledge. The midwives of hundreds of years ago certainly did not have the knowledge and tools that we have now but they were the best society could offer women. Women have never birthed alone. Nobody has ever thought this was a good idea. Why do you?

          • As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I have been taught that these last days before the second arrival of Jesus Christ are going to be somewhat chaotic.

            See Matthew Ch. 24.

            As I prepared for mothering my family I combined reading scriptural prophecies with parenting books and felt guided by the Holy Spirit to learn Mothering self reliance.

            As I carefully weaned from the medical profession I learned many things that have helped me in the quest for complete autonomy. When my fourth child was three I again felt guided by the Holy Spirit to write. I started with my first essay Family Sovereignty.

            I believe Dr. Amy’s old blog Homebirth Debate was started in response to that essay as it had a tremendous amount of traffic back in the day (1999 to 2005).

            After writing my first book which details how I healed from a challenging psychiatric illness using natural healing, I wrote several more books.

            Elijah Birth was written for Dads who are reluctant to assist with a Freebirth after conducting a survey of parents who birthed alone.

            A Lotus Birth is the journal of my fifth childs pregnancy and birth.

            I also organized our second husband/wife conference in Colorado in 2001.

            And I have blogged and participated in chatrooms and on comments sections for many years.

            Here are my books which go into great detail about WHY I and moms like me get into Freebirth: https://www.amazon.com/Jenny-Hatch/e/B00BUK1XPK/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

            I believe Dr. Amy is a real person, but I believe her blog is run by pharmaceutical interests who perceive natural childbirth educators like me (I was certified as a Bradley Method Educator for eight years) as a threat to their profits.

            Before believing any claim of dead children on the web the cautious and curious would be well served to verify if the families in question actually exist.

            If the moms were really pregnant.

            If the story has been verified by two or even three witnesses.

            I have been on the web for over 22 years and the level of sock puppetry and fakery around the birth wars are right up there with the worst hoaxes that have been conducted by the scientists.

            The dude who managed to get millions of women eating horse piss to balance her hormones bragged that with the right marketing campaign he could get the American Woman to eat encapsulated horse shit.

            Ya’ll are being played.

            Dr. T has been useful at times to provide perfect counterpoint to our arguments.

            But at the end of the day, she (and her team of slanderers and libelous bloggers) is a great big fat nothing.

            Cheers!

            Jenny Hatch

          • MaineJen

            So, you freebirth because you are preparing for a post apocalyptic off-the-grid world.

            I think we’re done here.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Mormons are big on emergency preparedness. I think that her psychiatric illness plays into this and creates this end of times world that she’s waiting to have happen.

          • kilda

            ok, ma’am, enjoy your paranoid delusions. But I think you might not be quite as healed from that psychiatric illness as you think you are.

          • Uh, what? I continually read the Bible cover-to-cover. (Just finished Hosea, about to embark on Joel.) In the Bible, women giving birth are generally attended by other women, and the process is portrayed as painful (Genesis 3; lots and lots of prophetic references) and far from safe (see Rachel in Genesis and Eli’s daughter-in-law in 1 Samuel). I’m really confused where you get all this freebirth stuff, and–let me check out Matthew 24 again–nope, nothing about weaning oneself from the medical establishment in there. Temple destruction, tribulation, plagues, second coming, be watchful–nothing about the evils of having babies in hospitals.

            I also don’t think Luke the Beloved Physician would endorse your wholesale condemnation of doctors and nurses.

          • Read verse 19.

          • If we’re going to take that verse as pertaining to general and times and not the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, then maybe we should all be on birth control….

          • Cynthia

            Nice that you apply all that skepticism and concern for truth online to produce blog posts calling Hilary Clinton a Satan worshipping pedophile cannibal.

          • I Think you have some serious problems and hope you get help with them. Paranoia and delusional behavior is not the least of it.

          • Eater of Worlds

            I’m positive she did not cure her psychiatric illness with natural methods, which I am assuming included essential oils.

            It’s sad when you see someone so ill who needs medical care but isn’t getting it, and her family seems to accept the situation instead of fighting for her to get the care she needs. Maybe they feel they are protecting their children, or don’t even realize that their partner is as ill as she is.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            None of this really answers my question. Yes, you gave me a list of books you have written but I am a busy social worker (most people are busy somethings…) and don’t have time to sift through your entire bibliography. It also costs money. Are you able to articulate the basic reasoning behind your views in shorter format than multiple books and without the requirement that people spend money to hear it?

            What confuses me about it is the insistence on no birth attendants. I don’t think homebirth is a good idea and I think it’s an even worse idea without the support of a medically trained midwife but at least I understand the ideology behind it. These women think it is a better choice to give birth in a way they believe is more similar to the way women did it for many generations before modern medicine because they believe that the “natural” or “traditional” way is superior and that medical intervention does more harm.

            But no attendant at all? No midwife at all? Again, nobody ever did this. Because women knew that birth was dangerous. This was commonly accepted hundreds and thousands of years before there was any internet for any stories, true or false, about stillbirths or maternal deaths to spread around on. Lots of people have family stories about babies and mothers who died during birth that they heard from their elders. Old literature and folklore is full of stories about the danger of birth because those stories spoke to women’s realities. Many cultures and religions have some kind of figure or deity who can be appealed to confer protection upon women giving birth because these cultures and religious groups knew how dangerous it was. Catholic women since the Middle Ages prayed to St. Margaret, patron saint of women in childbirth in hope that it would help. Why did they feel compelled to do that if birth was so safe?

            I find that people who reject medicine tend to be very into the idea of traditional wisdom. Why reject the traditional wisdom of generations upon generations of women who knew that birth was dangerous enough that some kind of specialist was needed to try to help the woman through the process? Every culture had midwives. Every culture. Why are the Old Ways not good enough for you?

            I get that you believe we are in end times and I infer that you believe that it’s important to learn independence and off-grid living because things could get “chaotic.” Even assuming that is true and we all end up in a situation where we don’t have modern technology and hospitals anymore, do you think human beings wouldn’t still develop specialized skill sets to meet certain needs? They did long before modern hospitals and technology, why wouldn’t they still? Why wouldn’t there be midwives and birth attendants in the “chaos?”

          • My Dissertation is 10,000 free words sharing why.

            https://jennyhatch.com/2009/11/20/dissertation-on-motherhood/

            Would you invite a sex expert on your honeymoon?

            Why not?

            We know and believe based on our personal experience that birth works best when it is private, sacred, celestial, and done in the privacy of our own bedrooms using the same forms of arousal that created the child.

            The hormones flow best when mom is with her lover.

            Period.

            End of story.

            That is the truth.

            Having an expert around messes with everything, EVERYTHING!!!

            I do not know how to be any more clear.

          • MaineJen

            Oh my GOD

          • Who?

            I know right-it’s a fetish, I think.

            Generally I’m pretty comfortable with anything someone wants to do in private with other consenting adults.

            But bringing a baby into your sex-play is borderline child abuse, I think.

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            1.) Your partner can be around when you are giving birth even if you are being attended by a doctor or midwife. I wouldn’t want third parties around while having sex but birth is not sex.

            2.) If having experts around ruins everything, do you think that all of the women of past societies, all of whom considered it necessary to be attended in birth by the “experts” of their times were wrong? That is a real question and that is the question I have asked from the beginning which you haven’t answered. If you do believe that all those women of past generations were ruling their births by having midwives, where do you get the data that no attendant is best? It is highly experimental. Again, no society did it this way. Attendants have always been the norm. My female ancestors did not freebirth and neither did yours—at least not on purpose.

          • I have not decided anyone was wrong.

            Women tend to birth how they live.

            And I did not go looking for evidence from the past when making my own choices.

            I do not really care about being popular, loved, accepted by people like you and/or held up as some oddity.

            I just want the freedom for me and people like me to give birth privately without being thrown in prison if something goes wrong, as it sometimes does.

            From your persistent questions I get the feeling that you, like so many hundreds of people I have chatted with over the years, want me to offer you “proof” that what I promote as an ideal way to welcome children is the best.

            I do not have that proof.

            No scientific studies, no historical records, just anecdotal birth stories.

            We freebirthers work in the faith realm, although not everyone practices a religion.

            I spent seven years studying and teaching childbirth and had three hospital births before I felt comfortable doing my own prenatal care and giving birth alone.

            My husband has never really felt comfortable with it, but his posture is that it is my body and I should have the freedom to do what I want, but he would never encourage anyone else to do it.

            I do not know how to answer you satisfactorily because it feels like you want me to magically whisk away all of YOUR concerns.

            Only you can do that.

            It took many years of effort for me to work through my own terrors and my fourth child and I both almost died after my first freebirth.

            Please, I have nothing more to offer than the reams I have already written.

            At some point you are just going to have to sort it out in your own mind.

          • Who?

            You do you, no problem with that.

            You say though that you are not affected by others, but you have also said that you work to influence others to follow your path, and you are proud of that work. I wonder if you would continue to be proud, and would announce your involvement, if your influence resulted in a death.

            I wouldn’t prosecute a woman whose baby died during a freebirth, because I believe women have bodily autonomy. For the same reason, I think a woman should be able to have a termination any time she wants one.

            However, I think anyone planning a freebirth should be prepared to refuse all medical care once their baby has died. That would show a real commitment to freebirth. Having your baby die for a planned lack of medical care, then accepting medical care yourself, is utterly contemptible.

          • All of the free birthers I know understand that certain situations call for medical intervention.

            We trust that we will be guided by our mothers intuition to seek out whatever level of care is needed in any given situation.

            MOST of us have great success with our births.

            And we claim our rights of self determination to be the ones to decide how much or how little care we receive from doctor or midwife.

            If professionals choose to deny care for the mom or the baby on any level because they disagree with her choice to stay away from prenatal care etc… that is OK.

            My doctor refused to assist with a potential botched home birth with my last pregnancy.

            And I get it.

          • Who?

            So you’re good with the dead baby lottery?

            I guess so long as you get your orgasm, who cares about a dead baby or two?

          • I guess you get your epidural your good with a dead baby or two?

            Do you have any clue how many mothers have been paralyzed by epidural drugs?

            How many babes have had to be in the NICU for weeks or months because of too many labor meds?

            And some of those babes died!

            I guess you are OK with the iantrogenic morbidity that leaves some moms and babes PERMANENTLY damaged when a hospital birth goes bad, as it does sometimes.

            Freebirthers demand our rights of self determination and control over our own bodies and minds.

            And in a society where it is legal to have your child dismembered and sold for parts by Planned Parenthood into the third trimester, WE are NOT the parents who should be shamed and singled out for societal rejection just because we reject the medical model of birth.

            You realize your are a shill right?

            Defending an industry that has lots and lots of blood stained in a never ending smear all over the babes who have passed through the seemingly sanitized halls of a hospital.

            When a Mom has an orgasm during crowning, guess what? The blood around her uterus is quickly and perfectly redirected out from the womb and into the rest of her body making the fetus ejection reflex possible and the loss of blood during parturition minimal.

            To accept that FACT you have to know a thing or two about basic female physiology and function.

            The OB’s are so lost in their IGNORANCE of the ideal way for the baby to be expelled from the womb, that of course they have resorted to forceps, drugs, surgery, and all of the bells and whistles of an obstetric delivery suite and the costs associated with that type of childbirth.

            I got into freebirth because I believe and know it is the easiest and most logical way for the baby to be born.

            And the science around the hormonal exchanges between mom, baby, and dad are all indicative of WHERE the ideal place to have a baby is.

            In a bedroom!

          • Epidurals don’t leave masses of dead and maimed neonates and mothers.

            https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD000331.pub4/full

            Home births in the United States do.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24662716

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Yes, smart women birth smart and self absorbed women birth self absorbed!

          • space_upstairs

            Frankly, although I still think her ideas are way off base, I actually don’t think Jenny Marie is simply “self-absorbed” and hoping to win higher status for how she birthed her last two children, although I generally agree that a lot of today’s popular parenting fads are way too status-motivated and that status often factors in to birth decisions. In Jenny Marie’s specific case, though, she admits to suffering from mental illness and abuse. I’m starting to see the conspiracy theories that motivated her to freebirth her last two children – basically, the notion that modern food and medicine are key causes of all modern physical, mental, and social ills, and thus the solution to these ills is to stick with home remedies and organic food – as a genuine article of faith she clings to in order to try to save her children from suffering and herself from further suffering.

            As practical and realistic as it may be, it may just be too depressing for her and those like her to contemplate that perhaps how she birthed her last two children will have nothing to do with how healthy and well-adjusted they grow up to be, and that perhaps her own suffering could be best (but imperfectly) managed with the help of a little modern psychiatric medicine rather than completely cured someday if she continues on the path of bodily purity. Who wouldn’t want a complete cure or perfect prevention over practical and imperfect management, after all?

            The problem is, the sources of the popular faith in the possibility of complete cure and perfect prevention are very likely to be even less trustworthy (if the history of food and medicine in the 1800s and how today’s mainstream rose to power and prominence amidst rampant adulteration and fraud by smaller businesses back then is any tell) than those who refuse to make and indulge such promises.

          • Fearful women give birth covered and motivated by fear and faithful women understand that birth is a supernatural experience that is covered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

          • Chapter and verse, please? And no, 1 Tim 2:15 and 1 Cor 11:12 don’t say what you’re saying.

          • My own personal revelation from the Holy Spirit, which as a sovereign daughter of God I claim the privilege to receive.

          • Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Wow, your “dissertation” is 10 000 words? Shit, ONE CHAPTER of my PhD dissertation is longer than that. And I wrote 6 chapters, I think. Am I supposed to be impressed?

            Also, if you want to find my dissertation on the internet, you need to go through the Proquest Dissertations Abstracts, the repository for legitimate PhD theses in the US. Or you could request it through an inter-library loan service.

            Don’t come to me with a bullshit phd. I don’t fall for it.

          • Well… I bet more people have read and been influenced by my dissertation than yours…

            As I said in the intro to it:

            Written by Jenny M. Hatch: For her Doctorate in Motherhood.

            Note: Since there is no Criteria, University Curriculum, Certificate, or acknowledged academic cap and gown that could be used to designate myself as a Doctor in the Philosophy of Motherhood, I went out and bought myself a new apron, and offer the words of this dissertation combined with the pictures of my family as evidence and proof of my credentials as a PhD MH!

            *Message to any person who has come across this Dissertation –

            We Mothers have to know what we are about. Since the world, especially the education establishment, largely holds the daily work we do in contempt, we need to stake our claim and stand tall, confident, and clear on what our efforts mean, not just to us, and our families, but to society as a whole. For anyone who is thinking about becoming a parent, please carefully consider the words that follow.

            If you count up the hours spent reading, practical skills mastered, and recognize the contribution to society the amazing gift of yet another gently birthed, nurtured, and nourished child to be enjoyed by all who come in contact with him or her and decide you too deserve to receive the coveted PhD MH, go ahead, start putting those little letters after your name.

            Welcome to the Motherhood branch of Academia!

            Get a new apron, have your husband get you pregnant, throw out all your high-heeled shoes, and happily welcome another blessed child into your home. We have a certain stereotype to proudly thrust in the faces of all who judge us…..it is BAREFOOT AND PREGNANT!!! I can think of few blessed states to be in than barefoot and expecting another blessed child into our home. So I happily project this supposedly derogatory cliché’ of Motherhood and combined with the PhD MH letters after my name, will gladly defend this dissertation in any forum at any time.

            Who said only the hallowed halls of academia and the ivory towers of the Ivy League have the right to bestow Advanced Degrees upon the heads of individual men and women?
            What do those little letters mean?

            To me, the designation PhD MH is a very “tongue in cheek” attempt to quantify and validate the work we are accomplishing in our own homes. If reading this introduction to my dissertation has given you a laugh and helped you to gain some perspective on the value of this important work, then I have accomplished my goal.
            Jenny Marie Hatch PhD MH
            *That name does look official, doesn’t it? Kind of makes you think I know something…Well, I do know something, I know how to make a healthy baby*

            Funny thing…

            Whenever I have debated phD feminists about their dissertations they are always reluctant to share their man hating marxist drivel with me, yet here I am a non-conformist free thinker outlining the parameters of a new way to live family life completely divorced from government money, pioneering a new paradigm shift in what it means to be a woman in the 21st century and I PROUDLY share my thoughts in any forum that allows me to speak.

            And just for the record I have been banned from just about every chat room I have ever participated in and am highly censored on the web.

            Now, why do you think that is?

          • AnnaD2013

            Gross.

          • rosewater1

            And if the mom doesn’t HAVE a lover? If she is choosing to be a single mother? If her spouse is dead? Serving overseas on the military? What then?

          • demodocus

            This could so easily have been my mother. She and Dad had sex one last time while they waited for the results. Dad wasn’t expected to live through November. My sister was born in February. As it turns out, he was the 1% who lived, but he was too sick to do much for a long time. Fortunately, Grandma was able to be there, and Grandma is awesome.

          • Why do you care what my opinion is on the topic of moms who are alone?

            I am here defending parents rights to give birth however they desire.

            As Gloria Lemay famously said back in the day…

            “If a woman wants to give birth in a shack out in the woods with a baboon as her attendant she should have the right to do so.”

            Single moms can birth however they choose.

          • Azuran

            You are entirely missing our point. No one is is claiming that women should be forced to birth a certain way. We certainly don’t think that homebirth should be banned and the pregnant woman should be chased down to be brought to the hospital against her will.
            What we don’t support is the rampant misinformation in the homebirth movement about the risks it poses in general, individual risks assessment and when a transfer is advised.
            Journey’s mother had 100% the right to birth alone at home, attended by a baboon or a goldfish if she wanted.
            But when she was showing very obvious signs that things were going badly, she had the right to be told the truth that things were looking bad and that she should consider a transfer for her baby’s safety. She still had the right to ignore those warning and stay home. But she had the right to receive real, accurate, medical information. Not the lies she was fed in her closed facebook group.

            If a Doctor or a nurse had told Journey’s mother what the people in the group told her, they would be sued for millions, stripped of their right to practice and possibly even face criminal change of gross negligence causing bodily harm.

            What matters is that mothers in homebirth group are often not told the truth or are straight up being told lies and fantasies. And when you don’t have the truth, you are not making an informed choice.

          • Who?

            JMH is a busybody who thinks she’s right with God.

            She also thinks facts are hurtful, as opposed to just hard to hear sometimes.

            She lacks the imagination to understand that not everyone is as black and white as she is-so if you don’t 100% support, or just shut up, you are, by definition, 100% against. That’s why there can be no disagreement in the groups she supports, because disagreement means disunity and disunity is death: not literal death, of course, just loss of pride, which amounts to death. The actual death of a few babies unfortunate enough to be conscripted into the sideshow can’t be helped.

            It’s a narrow world view, but it works for her.

          • Truth?

            The whole American medical birth machine has demonized and dismissed lay midwives as dangerous to families for over two hundred years.

            The media has screamed how deadly and dangerous birth is since the old radio soap operas of the early part of the 20th century.

            Why is it that so many tv shows, soaps, nightime soaps etc are set around hospitals?

            Is there an unholy alliance between pharma companies, the news industry, and media content creators to PUSH a certain lifestyle on families?

            Teaching parents their lines…you know?

            ie “That epidural was better than the sex that got me pregnant!”

            Or the most popular:

            “All that matters is we have a healthy baby”

            The whole culture screams at families how dangerous birth is.

            And even so Emilee Saldaya has a freebirth group with 6,000 moms, growing exponentially all over the world, and Dr. Amy has what, MAYBE fifty readers? 75% of whom are paid shills, propagandists, busybodies, and snoops.

            Stalkers who infiltrate private groups to monitor pregnant moms and call the police on them when they are “too stupid” to listen to the PROFESSIONALS.

            Who the hell has time for that?

            You do realize these invasions of privacy around health care choices indicate a police state where you do in FACT want every mother monitored and compelled by law to OBEY.

            Look in the freaking mirror.

            And ask yourself how it feels to be a warden in the medical police state.

            And then…get the fuck out of our bedrooms.

          • Who?

            Actually, your bible makes a pretty good case that birth is painful and deadly, but I’m sure you know that. Funny you seem to have left out those bits in your quotes.

            ‘All that matters is that we have a healthy baby’: what a shocking statement!! Oh the horror that in the only time in history that this is taken for granted, it is a goal for most people.

            No one wants people compelled to have their baby any particular way. I have no problem with homebirth, freebirth, orgasmic birth or whatever. I have a problem with people who pretend that if a healthy baby is the desired goal, homebirth or freebirth are the most likely ways of achieving it.

          • You are a liar.

            “No one wants people compelled to have their baby any particular way.“

            That is exactly what Dr. Amy wants. She has bullied home birthers for many years. Do you actually read this blog?

            And we simply have a difference of opinion on how to create a healthy family.

            No pretending or pretense. I KNOW how to create a healthy child without anyone’s help. I have done it twice now.

            End of story.

            And one little death anecdote on a Facebook chat is not going to change anything. In fact, if this is a psy op I really have to thank all of you for helping to get the word out to the uninformed. It really helps our book sales. When people even hear about Freebirth it changes them.

            So thanks!

            Part of being healthy is financial freedom.

            The excessive costs associated with allopathic birth have to be a prime consideration when deciding how to budget and plan, especially if the family decides to live on one income.

            If moms decide to invest the healthcare dollars into healthy food, kitchen tools, a small herb garden, a prenatal aerobics class, and my personal favorite form of prenatal care, pregnancy massage, I believe that investment will pay sound dividends in terms of a healthy child over and above what can be expected from a mom who just does her pee cup/ultrasound routine with a professional.

            We never really expect to be embraced by the system. For obvious reasons.

            But could you cut the crap about us being stupid, naive, and a threat to our children?

            It annoys the hell out of me.

          • Who?

            ‘…one little death…’

            That contemptible remark represents the gulf between you and Dr T.

          • Azuran

            Doing something twice without negative consequences does not mean it is safe.
            And how to be healthy is not a matter of opinion, its about science and fact and your opinion means nothing
            Sure, you might have a homebirth and be fine. That doesnt change the fact that both you and your baby had a bigger chance to die. Its good that you didnt die, but thats just dumb luck, like driving drunk and not crashing, it doesnt mean its safe.
            You can refuse vaccination and never have problems, but that doesnt mean it was safer. Not vaccinating means you are more at risks of catching the diseases and more likely to have complication. If you didnt get sick, again, that was luck.

            If you want a massage while pregnant, go for it, it certainly feels nice. But until you can provide scientific evidence that it reduces breech birth, prevent GD and pre-eclampsia, then it is absolutely not safer and healthier than routine prenatal medical care. You are just deluded.
            And when you share those delusion and convince other women to forego proper medical care by lying that massage therapy is proper healthcare and will guarantee them better outcome, then there is a problem.

            Health care is not about your beliefs. Your beliefs are not grounded in any science and are actually dangerous and propagating those lies is hurting women and babies

          • Who?

            The irony is that apparently there is no ‘wrong’ way to do it.

            Baby dying or being injured seems to be a feature, not a bug.

            And any woman who dies or is permanently injured does double duty as a martyr to the cause, as well as proof that the medical profession that couldn’t bring them back from the dead, or repair the damage caused by neglect or incompetence, is hopeless.

            It’s actually the perfect confidence scam.

          • Would you please, most cordially, shove your science up your ass?

          • Azuran

            What a very intelligent and thought out answer, very convincing arguments and evidences you are presenting.

          • namaste

            Sure, as soon as you come up with a better method for establishing objective, verifiable reality that exists completely independently of our “beliefs,” and by design corrects for the conitive biases they cause.

          • Who?

            JMH claims to have flounced, having had her feelings hurt by her very own words.

            It is not recorded whether or not said flouncing was preceded by a tantrum.

          • rosewater1

            I do hope that many, many people read that post. One little homebirth death. I’d venture to say that Journey Moon was wanted and loved, and is very much missed. Each little homebirth death is a life that never got a chance to live.

            You prattle on about respecting other women’s choices. Please stop. You don’t. Your words denigrating women who choose to birth in hospital are insulting and, in several cases, downright lies. You want to give birth at home? Have at it. I don’t know of any way homebirth or freebirth could be outlawed. How would you enforce it?

            But like it or not-and I’m sure you don’t-not every woman CAN birth at home. It is not safe in cases of a transverse lie. A cord prolapse. A placental abruption. Shall I go on?

            What is gained by talk of how horrid hospitals are and how they should be avoided? Why make people scared to seek the help that they might really need? Journey Moon might be alive today.

          • Azuran

            Seriously in what imaginary world do you live in, paranoid much.
            This isnt an online popularity contest, no one cares who had more follower ( but id point out that over 95% of birth happen in hospital, so the vast majority of women have no interest in homebirth and even less in freebirth) and no one here is being paid.
            YOU came here, remember.
            If anyone is acting like a paid shill its you

          • Empliau

            I am curious about why you would say “get the fuck out of our bedrooms.” Sadly, I know far more about your orgasms than I ever wanted to. And before you say “then you shouldn’t be reading my posts” – you are the visitor here.

          • MaineJen

            That reminds me. My shill check is late.

          • VeritasLiberat

            Well, as another member of the Church of Jesus Christ, your ideas seem bizarre and unjustified. Most Church members accept modern medicine. Back when Utah was still the pioneer land Deseret, church leaders sent folks back East to study medicine and whatever midwifery knowledge was state of the art back then. If you have access to doctors and hospitals and don’t take advantage of that – if you are expecting God to help you when you will not help yourself – you are tempting the Lord. All for the sake of getting high on birth.

          • VeritasLiberat

            And as for the whole notion of “orgasmic birth”: if you MUST masturbate, at least use something other than your infant.

          • Piss off…

          • momofone

            What a Godly response.

          • Goddesshood is in the far, far distance as I make my walk towards exaltation.

            If you hadn’t noticed I am the pit bull of the Freebirth Movement.

            All of the amazing Freebirth Moms are the Goddesses.

            Take your Alinsky four and shove it up your ass:

            https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/04/13/12-ways-to-use-saul-alinskys-rules-for-radicals-against-liberals-n917872

          • o.0 “Lisa” is a goddess, who labored for 8 days and bore a dead baby who didn’t have to die? Lady, you are messed up.

          • Who?

            More the Foghorn Leghorn…

          • momofone

            Classy.

          • Kelly

            I bet she doesn’t vaccinate either even though the church is pro vaccination and has made statements saying so.

          • MaineJen

            “gush of orgasmic hormones” Oooooooh dear. 😮

          • Excuse me, but this retired certified nurse midwife [career spanning 50 years] and mother [career spanning 38 years] is telling you that you are absolutely clueless.

          • LOL

          • Cynthia

            A certain divinity is achieved when mother and baby come through childbirth alive and well.

          • My grandeur is no delusion…

            I know who I am and whose image I was created in.

            Dr. Amy on the other hand believes she EVOLVED from pond scum.

            https://jennyhatch.com/2008/02/22/whose-your-daddy/

          • Who?

            We all evolved from pond scum-whether or not you believe it.

            Some of us have risen above and beyond, is the difference.

          • I am a fool for Jesus.

            Whose fool are you?

          • Emilie Bishop

            Hi, I’m also a Christian. I love Jesus. I just spent an hour of my Sunday morning teaching 3-year-olds about Him. I’m not here to debate religion with you but to say that equating your faith in God with your aversion to medical assistance in childbirth makes no sense to plenty of us who believe the opposite–namely that science and medicine are ways God chooses to heal us and our proper response is one of gratitude. Believe what you want, but I’ll stick to my belief that God wants babies and mothers to live and has allowed medical advances to make that happen.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Add me to the list of people who love Jesus, and who think that C-sections, antibiotics, and vaccines are among the niftiest things we humans, thanks to the intelligence He gave us, have developed.

          • Sarah

            Jesus said tell you to stop embarrassing him.

          • rational thinker

            What you offer is not education in any way shape or form.The term birth rape is offensive to those of us who have actually been raped.

          • RudyTooty

            Do you get joy from hearing about people’s babies dying at freebirth? Does Journey Moon’s death give you any pause or grief at all?

            They trusted birth – they trusted the process – they held out for **days** in order to acheive the bogus and mythical experience that you are describing.

            The baby died.

            Is that something that makes you proud? Really, truly?

            It hurts my heart that people could be so deceived.

            The metaphor you use as a white lady – about ‘the birth plantation’ – is ridiculously offensive and ignorant.

          • HailieJade

            It’s common knowledge that modern medicine is worse than chattel slavery! As if any slave would choose being treated in a modern hospital with access to effective pain relief and antibiotics over staying in the fields picking cotton in the sun until the day he died. Come on now…

          • RudyTooty

            It is really so ridiculously offensive, that I can’t joke about it.

            Her carelessness with this metaphor reveals her white privilege, and her white obliviousness.

          • yentavegan

            I was deluding myself in thinking that Jenny Marie Hatch was a “sock puppet”…but alas she is the real thing.

          • HailieJade

            Sometimes the only option is to laugh, because otherwise you just cry, knowing such people actually exist….

          • The unrelenting gloat in the above post is the tell. Dr. Amy DELIGHTS in dead homebirthed children.

          • Who?

            Well, let’s assume that’s true. I don’t think it is, but let’s assume it.

            The outlet for that delight is telling the world about these deaths. In your head, that is so Dr T can glorify herself, for being right about homebirth, and I can see that from your perspective that interpretation makes a lot of sense.

            You think homebirth is a fantastic option and some kind of strike against a machine you believe is out to destroy families. Therefore, a homebirth death to you, is a real problem. Because if too many people hear about it, they will want to know why, and how, it happened. That might lead to all kinds of uncomfortable questions you would rather not face, let alone answer.

            That means, for you, the best response when a baby dies at homebirth is to either claim the parents ‘did it wrong’ somehow (though given you claim medical care is almost never needed and birth is just great done naturally, that’s a rocky path for you to try to navigate); or that it didn’t happen at all, as you are claiming (or sidling around claiming) with baby Journey Moon.

            Assuming you care about families and babies at all (again, an assumption for the purpose of the conversation) which is the more respectful response? To acknowledge the death, or hide or deny it?

            Usually when someone dies in a violent and unexplained way, family and friends want to know what happened, if there are lessons to be learnt, if anyone should be held responsible. But the homebirth/freebirth community don’t do that-or at least not with their own.

            Dr T is behaving more like family to these babies than their own families ever did-taking an interest in their welfare, and shining a light on the neglect they suffered on the most vulnerable day of their life. She is a great friend to the unborn of the undecided and unsure: those somewhat impressed by your story but with doubt about how true it can be.

          • Dr. Amy (and her minions) believe homebirth families whose children die should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

            Ten years ago on a blog written by an anonymous blogging doc named Dr. Crippen, a wholesale campaign was launched to lobby for a medical neglect law that would put the fear of God into any couple that dared to give birth alone.

            The four major OB societies tied to the US, the UK, Canada, and Australia all came out with denunciations for Freebirth.

            And the media gave them breathless coverage in many print and online journals.

            You know how Freebirthers responded?

            We figuratively told them all to go fuck themselves while we orgasmically pushed our babies into our lovers hands.

            I wrote a few choice words in these blog posts:

            https://jennyhatch.com/2007/07/13/freebirth-a-message-to-obstetricians-from-jenny-hatch-physician-heal-thyself-2/

          • Sarah

            Some of us don’t, or not for decisions made while the baby is still inside the mother anyway. I still think you’re an irresponsible stupid sack of shit, though.

          • kilda

            ah, here it is. you’re annoyed that your blog traffic is down. Perhaps the reason people here aren’t clicking over to your site is because it’s pretty obvious to all of us that you’re irrational at best, untreated bipolar at worst, and we see no need to click over to read more of the crazy you have already spewed here.
            Seriously. Psychiatric medicine. It is a thing that could do you great good. Go look into it.

          • Who said my blog traffic was down? My blog continues to grow and shine brightly despite being completely shadowbanned all over the web.

            I said Dr. T’s traffick is down markedly from years past based on the click overs of the past few days.

            People LOVE to read what they perceive as cray cray.

            I don’t need the Skeptical hag to drive my traffick.

          • momofone

            So did you learn the name-calling from Jesus, or did you come up with it on your own?

          • To be fair, Jesus could call people some very harsh things–whitewashed tombs full of uncleanness comes to mind–but as I recall, he mainly directed his criticism toward religious leaders.

          • Who?

            I don’t think families who allow their children to die at homebirth should be prosecuted. However, if someone claiming to be an expert is ‘assisting’ and that person oversees the death, I believe that person should be investigated and if they have overstated their skills or experience, or lied, they could be prosecuted.

            Perhaps traffic to your site is down because you are a bit out of fashion now compared with the Instagram generation-you could find a stylist to tone things up for you if you thought that would help.

            Was that your flounce?

          • No. I don’t flounce. I like to chat with anyone who appears to be interested in a real conversation, especially about birth.

            And I tend to fight back when people attack or treat me with contempt.

          • rosewater1

            No, I don’t believe that parents who choose freebirth or homebirth should be prosecuted. If they have any shred of conscience or a soul, living with it will be enough.

            I do, however, support that homebirth attendants who ignore obvious distress should be prosecuted. And I’d include Emilee Saldaya in this.

          • Azuran

            As it should be.
            My work as a vet is a huge part informed consent. Owners can decline everything they want. Even if declining treatment means a certain death to their pets.
            Owners dont get sued for declining treatment.
            But its my job to properly explain what is going on, what is medically necessary and why, the different treatment options and the up and down of each choices, including not treating.
            If i dont do that, or if i give wrong advices, such as ignoring signs of illnesses, then i can get sued and lose my liscence. And i treat dogs and cats. Not pregnant women and their babies.
            If you want to give any kind of medical advices or support, then u need to be held accountable for what you do.

          • RudyTooty

            That’s an interesting way to see it.
            In my opinion, she is concerned, and is using this platform to prevent unnecessary deaths. She would be delighted in seeing homebirth/freebirth deaths become rare.

            You, on the other hand, actively encourage people to participate in birth practices that result in dead homebirthed children.

          • HailieJade

            Funny, because the only person I see “gloating” on here is you. Talk about projection!

          • HailieJade

            Wow. “Birth rape”? “Birth plantation”? Congratulations, you’ve managed to belittle both the experiences of actual rape victims AND the horrors of slavery in just one short comment. Impressive!

            Just waiting to see what kind of trivial non-issue you’ll try to compare to the Holocaust now…

          • Heidi

            If she’s not a Holocaust denier. . .

          • HailieJade

            Either that, or she’s one of those “Christians” who compares 6-week abortions to the Holocaust. Both equally offensive and tone-deaf!

          • Desiree Scorcia

            Pretty much all the homebirthers i know divorced…

          • SOBfollower

            OMG! Are You For real??

          • Whitney

            Okay, so I am a woman who did feel legitimately violated following the birth of my daughter. The midwife attending the birth felt the need to immediately pull out my placenta, causing it to tear (surprise, surprise), then she forced her entire hand up into my uterus multiple times searching for the missing pieces. This did negatively impact me for close to a year.

            On the other hand, I’m fully aware that had I chosen to attempt “free birth”, my beautiful daughter who is my absolute everything probably would not be here with me now. I’d been in labor for close to 24 hours before I even dilated enough for them to admit me. Shortly after I got a bed, my waters started leaking with meconium. I needed pitocin to progress.

            I can say without a doubt that MY biggest accomplishment is actually having the privilege to raise my daughter and bring her up to be a good, God fearing woman. How she came to be is absolutely irrelevant and I’d do the exact same thing a million times over if it means having her here with me. My marriage is also as strong as a marriage can be. Yes, we had some hard times during that year, but a marriage can far more easily overcome a fist in the vagina than it can a dead baby.

          • MaineJen

            “…the fact that I have influenced thousands of couples to give birth autonomously has been one of the greatest accomplishments of my life as a childbirth educator.”

            I think it makes you a menace. How do you feel about all of the deaths coming out of the facebook group referenced in this post?

          • momofone

            If I were an educator, and that many of my students failed, I would not be hawking my “accomplishments.”

    • I don’t want to write an essay, but there’s an aspect of freebirthing I cannot understand, apart from all the other dangers: it’s impossible for even a lithe, flexible woman to twist herself into a position where she can control the birth of her own baby’s head and avoid vaginal laceration. The manipulations of the birth attendant are essential in maintaining flexion of the head so that the smallest diameter presents in a gradual manner so laceration is avoided.

      • HailieJade

        Nonsense! Lacerations don’t happen to women who “trust birth” properly! Or if they do, they’re the kind of tiny, insignificant tears that you barely even feel, magically heal perfectly and become “battle scars” from your perfect, warrior-mama birth. /s

        • demodocus

          I didn’t know battle scars were regularly minor. /s

          • HailieJade

            In the alternate universe these nutters live in, birth is both easy and painless AND also the greatest accomplishment and biggest battle you will ever fight in your life. Just like breasts and vaginas are totally not sexual and only for feeding or birthing babies, until suddenly they are totally sexual when a doctor is “fingering” you during a medicalised birth or Ina May Gaskin is sexually assaulting- whoops! I mean “guiding you to your orgasmic birth”… It all depends entirely on which narrative they’re trying to push that day, and who they’re trying to promote/demonise.

          • Eater of Worlds

            Just a flesh wound, tis but a scratch.

        • You’ve obviously never seen the shredded perinea I have occasionally encountered during my career, even when the most highly skilled practitioner has been conducting the delivery.

          • HailieJade

            It’s something I hope to never encounter for as long as I live! That’s why I’ve always said if I had ever fallen pregnant, it’d be a simple choice between elective C-section, or abortion.

      • I think the issue is that if a person admits it helps to have any hands – even her own – trying to control the baby’s head to avoid injury, it would raise the question of “wouldn’t trained hands be better than untrained hands?” The only way they can believe this nonsense is to take it to the extreme.

  • Kq

    You are correct. I am unsurprised.

  • Desiree Scorcia

    I know people IRL who are like this Jenny Marie character. I wish, for their sakes and the sake of their families and especially their children, that there was effective help for them.

    • RudyTooty

      I don’t know that I’ve met anyone quite this extreme IRL – but close.

      I know and have met MANY people IRL who are sympathetic to the idea of homebirth and curious about it for themselves.

      I worry about them getting sucked into an echo-chamber and making risky choices based on bad information.

      Those Instagram outdoor birth photos are very beautiful.
      Who wouldn’t want that kind of fairy tale?

    • Yeah I have an aunt who went down the Pizzagate rabbit hole and got stuck there. (Q-Anon follower.) She’s gone all anti-vax and anti-doctors and all this crazy stuff and the only thing I can be thankful about with all this is that her kids were already tweens when she went batty, so they were born safely and vaccinated properly. She’s poisoning their brains with “everyone is out to get us” crap, but we can hope they wise up in their late teens and don’t spend the rest of their life prepping for a war with the reptilians and the Illuminati. *Sigh.*

      • Heidi

        It’s hard to understand for sure. It’s like people, there’s plenty of real shit going down to be really upset about! We have voter suppression, family separation, people clearly linked to overt racist groups in the administration, etc. but I guess it’s no fun if it’s out there in the open.

        • space_upstairs

          I think people choose conspiracy belief on the basis that it makes them feel unique and enlightened and gives them hope of saving themselves if not the world from a threat only they can see. I met such a person once, and he hoped to solve all problems of science and technology by claiming real science and technology were just a conspiracy and the right maverick mind(s) could set it all right with some time and key people believing them. I think Jenny Marie hopes in a similar vein that by rejecting modern food and medicine since the birth of her 4th child, she will spare her youngest two kids from all the suffering she went through. It is more hopeful (if arguably less realistic and fruitful in practice) to believe mental illness and social and economic problems have a simple cause and solution – the (im)purity of the origin of what we put in our bodies to sustain our lives – than to see them as linked to diverse and often uncontrollable factors.

  • Amazed

    Good news here: there has been an increase in the number of people who get their flu shot. Like, threefold increase. Granted, a threefold increase of a small number is still a small number but it’s here. I was lazy and didn’t go to buy my bottle in time, so I did have some difficulties in finding one but hurrah, it’s done now. And this time, I didn’t even get a swollen arm which is my trademark reaction to just about every vaccine under the sun.

    • RudyTooty

      Thank you. This is positive news. Grateful to hear it.

    • At the same time a baby has died of measles in Israel because his parents opposed vaccination.

      • Amazed

        RIP, little one.

        I’ll never know why such things happen in first world countries. No, scratch this. They don’t happen in third world countries at all. People there are usually in a hurry to lay their hands on a vaccine.

  • Amazed

    Anyone having had some time to kill or desire to bang their head against the wall and dedicating some time to the ramblings of Jenny Marie Hatch, a self-proclaimed PhD, recently? What do we owe the honour of her visit to? Has she been ignored by the “birthing world” lately and came here to fill the void?

    • I deeply admire and respect Emilee Saldaya and despise Dr. Amy with a white hot flame of never ending rage.

      I am here to chat with anyone who is interested in talking with someone who promotes and defends Freebirth.

      If you will kindly pull your head out of your rectum, perhaps we could step away from flinging poo at each other and have a real conversation.

      • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild

        the only one who flings poo is you, JM.

        • Dr. Amy is DEFINED by her poo flinging.

          She daily writes the words that mock, belittle, and dismiss a large grouo of people who are divorced from drugs and surgery around childbirth and baby care.

          Your presence on this comment section is evidence that you endorse and are comfortable with her hateful positions.

          I despise her (and the 12 guys who play her on the web.)

          She is in fact a psychological operation designed to help medically traumatized parents cope with what happened to them in a delivery room in America.

          She divides and conquers by daily writing the words that will shame parents who just want what is best for their children by staying away from drugs and justifies the morbidity that accompanies each surgical birth.

          • Sue

            Wow – this person’s ugly, hate-filled “white hot rage” is very unbecoming for a person who claims to be promoting “healthy families”.

          • Madtowngirl

            I’m sure that Jesus would be proud. That whole “love thy neighbor” only applies to women who freebirth.

          • Griffin

            Psychological operation?? And who are the 12 guys?? Are you OK there, Jenny Marie?

            I had three elective surgical births without pain, either before or after. They were all wonderful blissfully happy experiences. Each resulted in a healthy contented baby and a thrilled, healthy and painfree me.

            You seem to think you speak for all women, you even seem to think that you are the glorious incarnation of how women should be.

            Sadly for you, you don’t speak for me: I want to give my child the best chance at life, not risk it out of careless vanity.

            Frankly, I think the vast majority of women, on hearing your delusional ranting, would back away slowly and carefully, for fear of triggering what seems like a very unstable bomb about to explode.

          • Who?

            I thought the 12 guys might have something to do with the apostles? Then I wasn’t so sure.

            Then I saw a butterfly…

            It’s entirely possible we’re overthinking JMH.

          • Bugsy

            bingo.

      • namaste

        If you are interested in talking with someone who “Promotes and defends freebirth,” you have come to the WAAAAAAAY wrong place. I seriously doubt you will find even one of us who doesn’t think “Freebirth” is anything other than stupid, irresponsible, and deadly.

        • If you refuse to engage in a conversation as to why an increasing number of couples are choosing to give birth alone at home, but instead choose like Dr. Amy to judge, insult, dismiss, and hate those of us who do, you are nothing more than a BIGOT.

          https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigot

          I do not give a rip how you choose to give birth, why all of the rejection for those of us who choose the sovereign path?

          • rational thinker

            You mean the stupid path

          • Stupid and gullible are the parents who believe an induction followed by epidural, forceps or c section followed by baby formula, vaccines, and early detachment from Mom who goes back to work at three weeks post partum is BETTER than spontaneous natural birth, breastfeeding, natural healing, long term bonding with mom AND dad, and full attachment.

            Chemical parenting leads to lifelong mental illness, attachment disorders, and divorce not to mention financial insolvency.

          • Desiree Scorcia

            So you’re philosophically pro-freebirth, but do you actually think it’s as safe as hospital birth? Or do you just not care?

          • Azuran

            Except that my labour never started after my water broke. And then I started having a fever and my baby was too large and didn’t fit.
            Would be have a stronger bond today if I just waited until I was leaking meconium and she no longer moved for over 24h before going to the hospital?

          • demodocus

            Interesting hypothesis. Mom used nothing but the hospital bed when she had us. She and Dad were active parents, and hippie that she was, the only medicine we got regularly was vaccines. Yet all three of her children battle depression. Granted, that’s an anecdote, but where do you get that last paragraph from? How good were the studies?

          • Box of Salt

            Jenny Marie Hatch

            “who goes back to work at three weeks post partum”

            Have you been promoting policies that would provide paid leave for mothers who need paid work to support their families to prevent such situations? Have you voted for legislators who support such policies?

          • Nope.

            I do not believe the government should dictate anything related to mothering.

            Honest to goodness mothering means Mom quits her job to cook, clean, and nurture the infant ideally for at least three years for proper bonding.

            If couples desire this lifestyle they should live in a small space, drive one car, and do things like cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, and washing their own cloth diapers to save money.

            That is what we did and I had the privilege of staying home to care for my own five children not because of any stupid law but because I knew how important it was to my children.

            Government doesn’t have anything to do with healthy family living.

          • Bugsy

            “I do not believe the government should dictate anything related to mothering.” followed by “they should live in a small space, drive one car, and do things like cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, and washing their own cloth diapers to save money.”

            Good to know that the government shouldn’t dictate parenting but a random lady whose only expertise – as far as I see it – is having her own kids can.

          • Kq

            Chemical parenting?

            Wow. And I was already marveling at psyop.

            You’re quite a piece of work.

          • Box of Salt

            KQ “Chemical parenting?”
            I use chemicals when I parent. The specific chemicals I use are proteins and carbohydrates, plus lipids and minerals. Some of those may be considered vitamins.

            And I have no problem with the occasional use of beta lactams to kill off the bacteria trying to harm my children, or stimulating their immune systems to produce antibodies in advance of infection.

            Maybe Jenny Marie can explain what I just posted.

          • Kq

            I dunno. Sounds “ICKY”

            Also, did you get your Pharma Shill check? I keep calling but my last payment is late.

          • Box of Salt

            KQ, I think Dr Amy forgot to put me on that list of 12 guys.

          • rosewater1

            Why yes, of course, all women should stay pregnant until spontaneous labor happens. A baby doesn’t need a working placenta.

            Why yes, all women should birth vaginally. Not every woman needs a whole pelvic floor or to be able to pee and poop normally. Not to mention, some babies aren’t meant to live…so why care of some of them die.

            Why yes, all women should breastfeed exclusively. What does it matter if not all of them get enough to eat?

            Why yes, all moms should stay home with their children. What does it matter if their families have enough to survive?

            Pity you weren’t around 50+ years ago when my Mom had a twilight sleep, forceps birth with me. She didn’t want to breast feed. She went back to work when I started in school full time. We would have been close. Oh, wait…

          • HailieJade

            Well your comments are just so typical of a twilight-birthed, bottle-fed baby of a working mum! Maybe if your mum had done everything JMH and her freebirth disciples teach, you’d be smart enough to know she’s right!!

            I mean look at me- my mum had a natural, drug-free birth, stayed at home and breastfed me till I was three. And I… am all for epidurals, working mums and exclusive formula feeding. Huh.

          • rosewater1

            I know, right? What’s wrong with us?

          • StephanieA

            Last time I checked you can’t bond with a dead baby. I’m also guessing you don’t really understand attachment theory. I really don’t understand how dense you have to be to think that a spontaneous labor ending with a dead baby is BETTER than an induction that results in a healthy live baby?

          • Griffin

            Honestly, I hope you stick around for a while, because your comments are so revealing of the deranged and narcissistic thinking that leads free birthing women to place their babies at such a heinous risk. Chemical parenting? Sovereign path? Please, keep the gems coming.

          • Kq

            Right? This deserves its own drinking game.

          • rox123

            Babies that would have been happy & healthy if given birth to in a hospital are now dead because of freebirth echo chambers. Have you no conscience?

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Why wouldn’t you at least advocate for midwife-attended births then, since that’s how birth actually worked before the advent of modern medicine?

            Also, short maternity leaves suck. I take it you’re advocating for a policy of longer, paid maternity leaves then?

          • No. I am advocating for mothers to get back in their kitchens and nurture their families.

          • MaineJen

            No thank you. I quite enjoy my career. My husband quite enjoys cooking, so he gets to do that. 🙂 Have I blown your addled mind yet??

          • I suspect you eat children, too, you monster. And vaccinate.

          • MaineJen

            Yes, truly, we are among the hordes who will perish in flame. It was fun while it lasted!

          • Heidi

            Of course, her husband is the one to prepare them. I mean, it’s a bit bad to eat children but to have a man in the kitchen. . .well, that’s unforgivable!

          • You do you. I do not care…

          • MaineJen

            LOL! Clearly you care a great deal, or you wouldn’t keep coming back.

          • rosewater1

            My mother “getting back in the kitchen”-which she would have like to do, by the way-would have meant that my family wouldn’t have had money to live on.

            Since, as I said, we were quite close, please try again. Stay at home moms doesn’t mean they are the only ones who can nurture.

          • At any rate, your mother didn’t flood your mind with wrong and harmful notions….

          • Cartman36

            You do realize that mental illness has existed since long before epidurals, forceps, formula, or c-sections, right?

          • Azuran

            Because you lie to women about the risks, and as a result babies die preventable death.
            I totally support the right of a woman, or anyone else for that matter, to refuse medical care for themselves. And that include during pregnancy and birth, up until the baby is born.
            BUT, one has to be properly informed about the risks of their path. When you are not provided with medically accurate information, you are not able to make a fully informed decision. And when you give people false information regarding the risks they are taking, then you are taking away their autonomy and ability to make informed decision by yourself.

            Medical care isn’t about your opinion. It’s not a discussion about whether blue or purple is the prettiest, or what kind of cake tastes better. There are medical fact, those are scientifically proven fact and those are true. If you hide those fact, or lie about them, then you are no better than those OB you despise and are hurting women.

            Giving birth unattended has a higher risk of death for both mother and baby. If you have strep B, it can infect and kill your baby. Every day over 39-40 weeks increases the risks of stillbirth. Having prolonged ruptured membrane increases the risks of infection. Meconium in the amniotic fluid is a sign of fetal distress and can cause infection an death. Foul smelling amniotic fluid is definitely not normal.
            All those things are fact.
            If women are not made aware of those things, nor properly counselled about when it would be appropriate to get medical care. Then they are denied the ability to make proper, informed choices for themselves.
            A facebook group where the rules actively prohibit telling a woman she should seek medical help, no matter what is going on, is a bad thing and it hurt women’s medical autonomy.
            Journey’s mother had the right to refuse medical care, even after she started having obvious signs that things were wrong. But she was never told that things where wrong, and by denying her accurate information about the severity of the clinical signs she was experiencing, she was denied the right to actually make a choice.

          • monojo

            Nobody wants to engage in a conversation with you because your offer is not in good faith. In your comment above that you deleted, you stated that the freebirth group is being targeted by psy-ops. You had an unassisted childbirth and it worked out for you. Instead of concluding that you were lucky, you concluded that UC is safe. Dead babies in the UC group doesn’t fit with your idea that UC is safe, so you decide that they’re not real. So yeah, not surprising that nobody wants to have a conversation with a person with faulty reasoning and who is also so heartless as to deny the death of a baby.

          • AnnaPDE

            Because you’re literally killing not-quite-yet-born babies in torturous ways in these “sovereign path” ego wanks. And then encourage others to do so as well, plus keep life-saving advice from them when it’s obvious things are turning fatal in real time.

            And for some unfathomable reason, a lot of people find it despicable to cause babies to die when they could be born perfectly healthy, and reject the people who do so. Weird, huh?

          • Cartman36

            Jenny, can you help me understand how you correlate freebirth with being “the sovereign path”. I’m a Christian as well and I don’t understand or see any connection between the two.

          • MaineJen

            I notice that you have studiously avoided talking about Journey Moon. Why?

          • Daleth

            I do not give a rip how you choose to give birth, why all of the rejection for those of us who choose the sovereign path?

            Because the “sovereign path” is dramatically more likely to kill healthy, full-term babies than the alternative is. Your “path” kills babies who would’ve lived if you’d chosen any other path.

            It isn’t bigoted to think that something deadly is a bad idea.

            It isn’t bigoted to think that someone who chooses to do something obviously dangerous is making a bad decision. If your “sovereign path” involves driving around with your baby lying on the passenger seat instead of buckled into a car seat, I’m going to judge you just as much, and for the same reason.

          • Sarah

            That would be because we care about your babies.

            I’m not arsed what you all choose to do to yourselves when you give birth at home with no adequate care provider, that’s your problem. Your kids, however, don’t get a choice about the risks they’re exposed to through what you do.

          • You worry about your own babies…

          • Sarah

            I did, that’s why I didn’t freebirth them. And I also worry about yours and those of other women as stupid as you are. For which I do not require your permission. Don’t like it? Oh well!

          • Daleth

            why an increasing number of couples are choosing to give birth alone at home

            In part it’s because people like you are lying to them about how dangerous it is, and lying about how beautiful/empowering it is, and lying about what giving birth in hospitals or in well-staffed (read: with CNM’s) birthing centers is.

            If those couples knew the truth, a significant chunk of them would avoid your “path” like the plague.

        • Who?

          I’m actually fine with people choosing ‘freebirth’, if that’s truly what they want. What I don’t care for is the curation around it-you’ll see that JMH is now saying that Journey Moon’s story isn’t real, so it can be removed from the freebirth narrative.

          And I would also like to see a commitment from the parents to seek no help at all, including for the mother, once the baby is confirmed dead. If mother is prepared to die in agony as the baby does, then that, in my opinion, is commitment.

          Anything else is just Instagram opportunities.

          • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

            For someone to even imply that the sad and horrific story of Journey Moons death by freebirth is untrue is Insane. It is the final injustice for a tiny dead baby.

      • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

        Flinging poo? Baby Journey Moon died in an embriotic sac filled with pus, poo and Strep B. That poor baby struggled for the last days of her life while her stupid mother even after noting she had foul smelling discharge did nothing. Being coached by another moron and following what the moron was telling her was as surely manslauter as a mother rolling over onto her newborn baby while co sleeping. Unfortunately in the good ole USA a full term baby who,hasn’t been born yet has no rights. How unfortunate that Journey Moon isn’t able to tell those who let her die about the horrific struggle she had that ended her life that never began outside the womb.

      • RudyTooty

        I have no interest, but thank you for the offer.

        I’m probably one of few here who believe people have the right to do stupid shit (like freebirth), if thats what they want.

        I will argue that it’s recklesss and dangerous though.
        Because it is.

        But go ahead and do it. Knock yourself out.

    • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

      Hahaha

  • Desiree Scorcia

    It was the forums at mothering magazine that first opened my NCB deluded eyes. I was on the forums at the nest with my first, hundreds and hundreds of women due each month . one baby died after being born extrememly prematurly. One. It was one a month at mothering. Like clockwork, the born sleeping and candle and angel wing emoticons . It was a horror show. But trying to convince them that ttis wasnt right was like screaming into a void.

    • RudyTooty

      The mothering forums were terrible.

      I’m afraid Facebook is even worse.

    • The true horror show is the never ending wreckage lying in the wake of allopathic medicine: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0E6B187DD4F940AD

      Some of us felt motivated to take personal responsibility for our lives and own our births…

      • namaste

        Fuck taking personal responsibility for your birth. How about taking responsibility for the life of your child? You know, ostensibly the entire point of the pregnancy?

        • I take my responsibilities as a mother incredibly serious.

          Do you? Are you willing to live with the long term consequences of your choices?

          You know? Birth injury from too many drugs and procedures.

          Autism from too many vaccines?

          Digestive ailments from not breastfeeding?

          Emotional illness from not being properly bonded with Mom?

          Educational deficiency from a child never reaching full genetic potential because Mom and Dad were too dumb to understand the long term side effects from antibiotics and GMO foods?

          We could play this game all day long…

          • Desiree Scorcia

            “Educational deficiency from a child never reaching full genetic potential because Mom and Dad were too dumb to understand the long term side effects from antibiotics and GMO foods?”

            This is great. If you’re just playing, 2 points for this one. If you’re serious and questioning the genetic potential of kids of dumb parents because of antibiotics and GMO, -2 points.

          • Kq

            I just got whackadoodle bingo.

          • mabelcruet

            Dammit, I missed out. I had chemtrails, the Illuminati and Beyonce is a giant blue lizard on my bingo card.

          • Heidi

            I am very sure she believes in chemtrails.

          • Heidi

            And Google says she has a blog post Beyonce to Sasha Fierce: Symbolic Occult Rebirth. Bingo!

          • Azuran

            I see you are still on the vaccine cause autism bandwagon…get your head out of your ass

          • I see I am talking to the last five people on the internet who have never heard of the CDC Whistleblower William Thompson and have never watched the documentary Vaxxed.

            You pro medical people are so freaking gullible. Defending the most JUNKY of junk science.

          • Box of Salt
          • rational thinker

            Do you also think we should be giving autistic children bleach.

          • Okay Jenny, here’s your new-thing of the day to learn: People who disagree with you don’t disagree because they haven’t been exposed to the same information you have. We’ve seen the videos. We’ve read the articles. We just came to a different conclusion than you did after consuming the information. You’re not arguing with people who haven’t seen Vaxxed. You’re arguing with people who watched it, and weren’t convinced. I know it seems like “it’s so obvious” once someone points it out, that for you once you saw the information it clicked and you knew that vaccines are evil, but not everyone gets that click. Some people watch it and just wind up thinking “Wow. How does anyone believe this video?” You need a new tactic besides just telling people to watch or read things they already watched or read and found absurd.

          • Heidi

            I don’t think she’s trying to change minds. I think she’s trying to get clicks for some money. I’m sure meager amounts of money but I think she hopes to profit off her “cray cray” (her words) more than she hopes to convince people to freebirth or believe in Satanic, child eating cults.

          • Yeah I made the mistake of clicking her link about Dr. T denying the sexuality of birth, hoping to maybe read some kind of rebuttal, her explaining how Dr. T was wrong, etc… but it was like 500 words and most of it was the quote from Dr. T. She didn’t actually say anything ABOUT it… so… including that article in her argument was all for the clicks. It doesn’t support anything she said.

          • Thanks for pointing that out.

          • namaste

            As a matter of fact, yes, because science has repeatedly demonstrated that all that stuff is bullshit.

          • Karen in SC

            I was totally chemicalled up by my mother who even smoked, drank and wore a maternity girdle before giving birth to me in twilight sleep and feeding me formula. I managed to have a high Mensa qualifying IQ and have a science degree. My story is similar to many, surely among them is Bill Gates and dozens of Nobel Prize winners.

          • Heidi

            “Educational deficiency from a child never reaching full genetic potential because Mom and Dad were too dumb to understand the long term side effects from antibiotics and GMO foods?”

            Huh? That is an exceptionally dumb sentence.

          • Sue

            “We could play this game all day long”

            Except that spreading misinformation is not a “game”.

            It astounds me that someone who professes to live a life of faith can spew such hatred.

          • namaste

            Your choices suggest otherwise.

          • rational thinker

            My honor roll student son never had a drop of breast milk even though I had an overactive supply. He is now a junior in high school and his IQ is 120 sofar.His IQ had nothing to do with anything you mentioned.Most likely his IQ is 120 because mine is 130. Having a smart child has more to do with the intelligence level of the parents and not breast milk.

          • rational thinker

            You know what I did to my poor child last week. I took him to a licensed MD and he got six shots in one visit. I know I should have my child removed from my custody immediatly.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            I’m sure CPS is going to be calling any day now. /s

          • Bugsy

            Lol…I’m pretty sure my 6-year-old wanted to call CPS on me last Friday after I brought both kids to the GP for their flu shots.

          • rational thinker

            By the way you dont get or develop autisum you are born with it.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            The only people qualified to judge your parenting are your children when they grow up. Those are the only opinions that matter. My 18-year-old (a planned birth center birth) came at 35 weeks, went to the hospital to have her life saved, went on to breastfeed 2.5 years (after a little formula before my milk came in to stabilize her blood sugar while she was fighting for her life in the NICU).

            She is a brilliant, beautiful young lady. She has autism. She wants to be a mathematician. We have a close bond despite her only being with me for 5 minutes before she was taken to the NICU. Her opinion about my parenting is that I did some things right and some things wrong. None of her opinions have anything to do with her early medical treatment or method of feeding. Her autism makes her life more difficult, but she’s alive and healthy, unlike many babies who have died from vaccine-preventable diseases.

            My other two teenage kids are neurotypical despite having the same vaccines. They both have said they think I’m a good mom, except my bad memory pisses them off, and I have a really close bond with them. My 15-year-old boy talks about his feelings with me and goes to me for advice. I went back to work pretty early with both of them.

            My other kid is an independent and compassionate girl, who can read a 300 page book in a day. She also got formula before my milk came in too, because she was not satisfied getting only colostrum for 4 days, and I cared about her feelings more than sticking to dogma. Kids don’t give a rat’s ass about how you birthed or fed them. They want to be listened to, loved, and taught how to navigate the world.

            Life and parenting aren’t black and white. Parenting doesn’t have a formula, where if you put x inputs in, you get y factors out. My nephew was born by c-section and never got a drop of breastmilk because he was a surrogate baby, and he went to daycare at 6 weeks. He is every bit as amazing, bonded, and emotionally and intellectually intelligent as my kids. How dare you imply otherwise because he wasn’t birthed and fed according to your rules. I feel sorry for your kids, because they’re growing up seeing your example of a rigid, judgmental world view, where only your way is the right way.

            You need to reflect on your disrespectful and cruel attitude, or you’re not going to be welcome in your grandchildren’s lives unless their parents do exactly what you think they should do.

          • My children are all mightily embarrassed by all of my activism, my tourettes which pops up at the most inconvenient times, and my passion for right wing politics.

            I would never presume to tell them how to live, how to vote, or what to believe.

            And they would be the first ones to say that is the truth.

            I raised them to be free thinkers and did the best with what I had at the time to give them a good start.

            Do you believe I hate my daughter who was vaccinated or my daughter who was born by c-section?

            Again, it was Dr. Dumbass who started this fight with her post. Not me. Not us freebirthers.

            I don’t care what sort of outcomes you get as a parent, but it is for damn certain that snoopy know it all busybodies think they have a right to take a homebirth tragedy and use it for their own financial gain.

            All we want is to be left alone.

            And if one of our kids dies, let us bury our dead in peace.

          • Heidi

            You want peace? Sure. . .

          • Cynthia
          • AnnaD2013

            Yes but freebirth babies often die from causes easily prevented by modern medicine and giving birth in hospitals.

            So which is it? You want freebirth or you want a live baby? ‘Cause too often you can’t have both.

          • Please, tell me how many people you personally know who have had a freebirth?

            And the evidence that ANY of those people’s babies died?

            I conducted a large survey of parents who birthed alone in 1997 and none of the babies died, no c sections, and one mom had a transfer for a retained placenta.

            Again, evidence that your claim that all these dead freebirthed children are magically being offed by their medically neglectful parents?

            What evidence?

            Do you even know anyone who has had a solo birth?

            Your smug assumptions around my lifestyle choices and breezy dismissal that I am a threat to my child could EASILY be flipped back upon the heads of those moms who starve themselves while they are pregnant, use toxic meds while in labor, and do not even consider the long term consequences of a planned medically unnecessary c-section.

            Talk about dangerous and deadly!!!

            You know nothing about the Russian roulette parents play every freaking day with their children’s precious minds and bodies when they mindlessly dope them up with pitocin, epidurals, psychiatric meds, vaccines, antibiotics, and junk food.

            The wreckage is real.

            So what is it?

            You want your drug addled pregnancy and birth or do you want a healthy baby?

            Cause you can’t have both.

          • Azuran

            That survey seems very biased to be.
            After all, if you specifically asked for people who birthed alone, those who had transfer (and therefore didn’t birth alone) probably didn’t answer to your question. And those who lost a baby are also probably unlikely to want to answer.
            A survey is not proper science.
            Basically you asked: Hey, everyone who birthed alone, without any complication, please tell me you birthed alone, without complication. And then you get smug because everyone who answered your question birthed alone without complication.

            That’s not how you make statistics or how you evaluate the risks of something.

          • Who?

            Depends on why you want the statistics and what risks you are actually evaluating, of course.

            I can imagine that JMH’s methodology is perfect for her purposes.

          • Who?

            So if doctors are so terrible, why do freebirthers ever go to them?

            Why did you have an OB at all once you had decided to go it alone-for your last two children, if I am reading your febrile rantings here accurately: I won’t be rewarding your efforts to drive traffic to your website, so don’t bother linking.

            And why is it okay, when the baby has already died for lack of medical care, for mother to accept care for herself that she refused for her child?

          • AnnaPDE

            So tell me, if you were to neglect your kids to the level that they’re suffering serious injuries and harm, are the people who tell you to stop doing so “busybodies” who should be minding their own business?
            If you’re putting your kids in dangerous and easily avoided situations, e.g. deliberately drive them around without seatbelts because for some reason your ideas on freedom hinge on sitting in a car unrestrained, would it be scaremongering to point out that yes, you’re endangering their lives?
            There’s a limit to parents’ rights to do as they like with their kids, and that’s because they’re not property but human beings with their own rights. We’re not going to “let [you] bury your dead in peace” if it was your deliberate actions that actively got the kid killed — we’re going to try to prevent you from killing more babies. Because, and this might surprise you, killing babies is wrong, even if they are your own babies.

          • AnnaPDE

            Unfortunately the babies that die in this charade don’t even get to grow up to tell the people who let them die just how horribly bad and irresponsible their decisions were.

          • Who?

            And the ones left with brain damage, or who are otherwise permanently injured, just get lost.

            The same parents who refuse vaccinations because they ’cause autism’ but are quite fine with injuries related to low oxygen at birth.

          • Daleth

            Are you willing to live with the long term consequences of your choices?You know? Birth injury from too many drugs…

            Are you willing to live with the long-term consequences of your choice not to believe in the same god as me? You know? An eternity in hellfire…

            Actually I don’t believe in that god, but here’s my point: you’re describing your own religious beliefs, but you’re using language that suggests you think that those beliefs are objectively true.

            Nope. They’re not. But thanks for sharing your religion with us. I think I can safely speak for all of us here when I say none of us are interested in converting.

      • Desiree Scorcia

        No, babies suffocating to death is definitely worse than a profession that heals billions.

      • Amazed

        Yet the only ones who own “your” births (hint: it’s your babies’ births, but I’m sure it’ll pass over your self-enchanted head) are those who don’t end up killing their babies.

        • Parents make choices every day that either contribute to a healthy baby or ensure that the child will have health issues and may even suffer death.

          I have noticed that the moms who take the least responsibility in terms of nutrition, exercise, drug use, and smoking/drinking while pregnant are the most likely to sue the doc when a baby dies.

          Midwives are almost never sued by the couples who retain their services, it is almost always the local doctors association that files the lawsuit when things don’t go as planned.

          Why is that?

          Hmmm… maybe it has something to do with taking personal responsibility.

          Those five babes who died over the years because home birthing Mom and Dad did not have a 21st century NICU in the kitchen do not justify forcing all mothers into the hospital to be monitored during labor.

          Maternal mortality and morbidity rates continue to climb in America and a few of us prefer being outside of all of that madness.

          • Who?

            Because midwives (or birth hobbyists, as I like to call them) have no insurance and no money and therefore aren’t worth suing?

            I wouldn’t want to force anyone into hospital to give birth if they don’t want to go, but I’d be a lot more impressed with their passion for it if, after their babies die, the mothers then refused medical care for themselves. That would show real commitment to the cause, don’t you think?

          • rational thinker

            Maybe cause the couples are so brainwashed that in thier minds the midwife can do no wrong.

          • E.C.

            A medical malpractice lawyer won’t take a case on contingency against someone with no insurance. Homebirth midwives don’t have insurance, because insurance companies aren’t stupid enough to issue it to them. Thus, parents whose babies die from homebirth would have to pay out of pocket to sue the midwife.

          • AngelGirl803

            Those “5 babies” you refer to: one died four years ago. The other 4 died within the last 6 months, all within your tiny 400 member group. Since I have no idea how many actual babies were born in this time period, or if that is an accurate description of the only children who died, I’ll spare you the horrific percentages that actually adds up to, but surely even you recognize that there is something off about this…

            I’d honestly like to know what accredited University or College that you got your “PhD” from, what field it is in, what years you attended the classes, and if you offer paid coaching to these parents?

            Also, I just want to say I disagree with most of this doctor’s oversimplified assertions that all babies should be born in hospitals, with more medical interventions. However, I also wholeheartedly disagree with having NO treatment at all for these expectant mothers. What is your objection to some middle ground? Can’t you support at least testing for the most common of these issues, like blood pressure, infections, and the baby’s positioning, and if all is ago, allow these mothers to home-birth? What is the opposition to just making sure the mothers are healthy, before recommending a natural birth? Is listing warning signs of a medical emergency really considered interfering or pressuring a mother into care? What is your objection to letting them have informed consent? I don’t mean pressure or harassment, but just just information, to increase the odds the baby is healthy?

            Even you must admit, the odds are horrible in your community, considering the recent 4 deaths of newborns in the community. It seems that as this fad grows, it would increase the likelihood of healthy babies, if you at least provided no-nonsense information or tips on when a home-birth is is dire of medical intervention? It would in turn, increase healthy babies, while also increasing interest in natural births, while also limiting the harm (moral or legal) to your community leaders?

            I honestly just want to understand why informed consent is frowned upon in this movement.

          • Cartman36

            Jenny, can you provide just one example, in the U.S. where a “local doctors association” filed a lawsuit on behalf of a patient against a midwife. Just one (must be from a real news source.

            Edit… I’ll wait

      • Sue

        This person’s blog reports the following event:
        “I have not had a pelvic exam since Andy was born almost eighteen years ago and I found myself in the ER after his homebirth with a busybody ER doc up to his elbows in my business”
        https://jennyhatch.com/2014/07/14/views-from-cedar-mountain-on-a-perfect-full-moon-night/

        SO much for taking “personal responsibility”. I’m sure the ED doctor could have thought of more enjoyable things to do too.

        • rational thinker

          If he was in fact up to his elbows then she probably had a retained placenta which is very dangerous.

          • Inverted Uterus…

          • MaineJen

            And it would have been SO much better to leave that untreated. I’m sure the ER doc was just doing what he was doing for shits and giggles, not to save your life.

      • rational thinker

        Then you need to also take responsibility when a baby and/or mother dies because of your rhetoric.

        • Who?

          They die because they did it wrong, doncha know? Like, according to JMH, Journey Moon’s parents.

          Just like the supplements/cancer cure/live forever alternative health/’medicine’ industry.

          If it wasn’t so utterly banal, it would be amusing.

  • yugaya

    Jenny Hatch is the idiot who has awarded to herself “a Doctorate in motherhood” https://jennyhatch.com/2009/11/20/dissertation-on-motherhood/

    I got nothin’.

    • yugaya
      • RudyTooty

        I didn’t read all 151 pages – but I did skim her obstetric history.

        It’s like a bad recipe book for *how to make your attempt at killing yourself and your baby in labor and birth.”

          • RudyTooty

            OK

          • I’m glad you found childbirth sexy? But it’s not for most people. It hurts, and most people don’t want to associate sexual arousal with their babies for obvious reasons. There’s a lot of blood, feces, screaming, tears, mucus, and generally gross bodily fluids, plus the placenta is a big bloody meatbag, plus you’re bleeding lots afterwards. You do you on the sexy stuff, I don’t judge fetishes, but please recognize that it is way outside the norm. Much further outside the norm than BDSM and scat play, for instance.

          • BeatriceC

            I’m into some really kinky shit, and even I don’t find anything sexy about childbirth.

          • Yeah, I’m pretty sure people who feel sexy giving birth are the outlayers, and good for them, because I’m sure that makes it a bit more pleasant, but lets not pretend everyone would feel that way if they were told to. Most people feel anything BUT sexy when they’re in acute abdominal pain.

          • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

            There is another crazy freebirther who has a blog somewhere on the internet. She blogged how she used her vibrater during labor, especially during contractions. She blogged how she orgasmically rocked back and forth as she vibrated like mad during each wave. She has other children who I pray didn’t have to witness that horror scene or they will be sexually scarred for life. I just can’t imagine feeling any kind of sexual feelings while trying to push a baby out.

    • Dr. Amy and her sidekick Antigonos and I go waaaayyy back.

      I have written a few blog posts dedicated to her rants.

      Cackling about dead babes: https://jennyhatch.com/2009/12/12/dr-amys-cackling-about-dead-babes-in-colorado/

      • RudyTooty

        What should the response be to dead babies?
        What’s an appropriate way to respond when a wanted, loved, full term, healthy baby dies?

        • Who?

          That it wasn’t meant to live. JMH and co are very big on what is ‘meant’, which roughly translates to ‘what works for their narrative this week’.

          Her efforts to excise the Journey Moon story from the ‘true’ freebirthers’, is a case in point.

          • RudyTooty

            I was hoping she would respond to my question herself.
            She has been virtually incapable of answering any of my questions with anything other than a link to her blog.

            “Thou shalt not kill” is a directive from her Bible.
            I’m wondering how she incorporates this commandment into her worldview that promotes lethal freebirth activities that kill babies.

            If I were a religious woman, I would be fearing my journey to eternal hell for my sins.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Thou shalt not kill” is a directive from her Bible.

            This is true, but it didn’t apply to fetuses. The Bible gives explicit instructions about what to do if someone kills a wanted fetus–the penalty is a fine paid to the woman’s husband for loss of property. Exodus 21:22-23.

          • Guest

            Don’t forget Numbers 5:11 is the details for an abortion if the husband thinks his wife messed around.

          • RudyTooty

            Do you suppose this is her reasoning?

            Or perhaps:

            The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.
            I bear no responsibility for my actions or ignorance.

  • My son Ben was Freeborn at home 16 years ago.

    His birth has proven to be an epoch in my life. As we celebrated last week the warm gushes of light and love that accompanied his entry into our home enveloped me once again, as it does every year around his birthday.

    Emilee Saldayas podcast and facebook groups have been so breathtakingly successful that it was only a matter of time before a planned psyop was conducted against her and her efforts.

    Dead babies result from all sorts of births, but be skeptical of the OB chortling about them on the internet. Mischief at a ridiculous level is possible with web anonymity. Ya’ll are being played by the biggest poser of them all.

    Hugs and Kisses Dr. T.

    It’s been a while.

    Jenny Hatch
    http://www.JennyHatch.com

    My freebirth poscast interview: https://m.soundcloud.com/user-754199824/a-mother-whose-done-it-all-the-tale-of-jenny-hatch

    • Who?

      So ‘what’s a few dead babies’ is your view? So long as a mama is safe and unhindered in her choice to have stinking meconium running down her legs for days while her baby slowly and agonisingly dies inside her?

      Do you all hate her now for saving herself, or is her baby dying enough to give her rock star status in this world you have built?

      ‘psyops’ lol.

      • I seriously question this birth story and the parents profiled as they are a complete bastardization of who we are and what we believe. This type of mischief is only possible on the internet. And no doubt, Dr. T and her minions are being paid ungodly amounts of money to spread the fakery far and wide.

        But you keep on eating it up. Obviously you have no clue what is best for children.

        Drugged, blue, preemie toxic babes are ICKY!

        • RudyTooty

          Dead babies are far worse.

        • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

          Dead babies are also born blue and they are not born sleeping. They are born dead. A sleeping baby can be woken up, a dead baby cannot. Many parents do everything right yet for some reason their babies die. I feel sorry for those parents. Freebirthers who ignore every sign that something is wrong and their baby is dying, then does die, have no sympathy from me. The dead infant had the misfortune of being born to parents who’s ignorance and stupidity caused their death. My heart bleeds for them and their unfulfilled life.

        • Who?

          So now you are saying this story isn’t a real one? Interesting.

          So you would rather have a dead baby than a live one, if the live one is born ‘drugged, blue, preemie toxic (whatever that is)’?

          Says it all, really.

        • rosewater1

          Hmm. Interesting. My cousin’s oldest son was a preemie. His mom abrupted after a fall (AFAIK-I was young when it happened and this is my guess). He survived…but he is deaf.

          In fact, he thrived. He is married and a father himself.

          Is he icky?

          I used to flex work in a NICU. Were those babies icky? Someone should have told all the people who worked so hard to save them. Not to mention their parents, who sat for hours a day, weeks, sometimes months on end, at the bedside.

          • Ozlsn

            Icky is one of the last words I would use for premature babies*. Drugged, well quite often – especially when they are struggling to survive and using so much energy to breathe that keeping them highly sedated is helpful. Blue – again, not infrequently, especially as the PDA is closing. Bradys are some scary shit, and blue is a hell of a lot better than grey though. (It’s a worry when you realise that you’re thinking that it’s “just” blue, all good.) Toxic? Yeah I have no idea what she’s even trying to get at, other than trolling obviously.
            Words I would use for prem babies include fighters, fortunate, tough, and lucky. Because they were able to get medical assistance to survive. Because their mothers sought help from medical professionals when their pregnancies started going wrong rather than asking facebook groups for advice. Because their mothers were shit scared that their babies would die, and fought and tried so hard to keep their pregnancy going to keep their child in utereo as long as they could, as long as it was safer for their baby to be in utereo rather than in NICU. Because in the end all their mothers cared about was them being alive and well and safe. Because even though they might have thought they would have a vaginal birth the mode of delivery mattered a hell of a lot less than being able to eventually bring their baby home.

            *OK after a poonami they are pretty icky. Like term babies in fact, but smaller. And if they time it right they get a whole new humidicrib to sleep in!

          • Jessica

            I have a friend whose baby was born at 24 weeks. She barely looked like a baby — all skin, impossibly tiny, impossibly fragile. She left the NICU 2 months ago pink, chubby, and smiley. Why? Because her mom had good doctors who recognized HELLP syndrome, she had steroids before her emergency C-section, she had months of top quality care in a Level IV NICU (including a transfusion, IVs, and “unnatural” feeding). And she is alive today and doing well. It is literally the least “icky” thing I can think of.

          • Bugsy

            I’m a preemie as well. Never needed to be drugged as a newborn or child. Graduated from the Ivy League summa cum laude undergrad, and received my graduate degree from Stanford….I now work my a** off with my own (successful) business while also raising two young sons.

            …but I guess all of that is in spite of my being an icky preemie.

            I can’t imagine her thoughts on my own icky drugged children, since they’re both products of IVF.

        • Box of Salt

          Jenny Marie Hatch “ICKY”?

          Are you sure you are the mother of a sixteen year old, not yourself a sixteen year old? Or maybe a six year old? Your comment shows that level of emotional maturity.

        • BeatriceC

          Glad to know how you feel about my children. All five of mine and my partner’s teen and adult children would also be glad to know you consider them “icky”. You really are a disgusting excuse for a human. And I’m quite certain you’ll go back to your echo chamber and tell them all how mean we are, but leave out the fact that you just told all the mothers of premature infants how gross our babies are and implied that they weren’t worthy of life.

    • yugaya

      My daughter will turn 16 next month. As *we* celebrate her birthday, I will be remembering all the many moments that make her who she is now, not how she was born.

      You are an egotistical vagina-for-brains narcissist, and I pity any child of such selfish idiots.

      • Who?

        Our Ben turned 26 earlier in the year. He’s achieved so much personally and professionally: to reduce a human being to the sum of how they exited mum’s body, and who was there when it happened, is just pathetic.

      • And you are under the never ending spell of a Big Pharma psy op called The Skeptical OB: https://jennyhatch.com/2010/05/18/dr-amy-in-complete-denial-about-the-sexuality-of-childbirth/

        • yugaya

          Jesus idiot are you that desperate for clicks? You think anyone in their right mind is interested in opinions of automisogynist who equates *getting impregnated “by your husband” and shoving a baby out of a vagina with a decade of academic education?

    • rosewater1

      No children here; the right man and right circumstances never made it possible. I am still sad about this; I wanted them very much.

      I do, however, have 3 beautiful nephews and an equally beautiful niece. All hospital born. The last was a c/s for breech. HOW they were born matters little to them or to anyone who loves them. We all rejoice that they are here.

      The oldest will become a father for the first time in December. I have ultrasound pictures of my great niece on my phone. I love her already. Her c/s is scheduled; the doctor recommended it and her mom is fine with that.

      I am glad your son is healthy and happy. Truly, I am.

      Nothing and no one will stop women free birthing, IMHO. But stories like that of Jpurney Moon-and Emilee Saldaya’s complicity and reaction to it-should be known far and wide. Should you choose to roll the dice with your life and the life of your child…you need to know the consequences.

      No one has to do a psyops on anyone. The internet and their own choices are doing a fine job of this.

    • Amazed

      My niece was born all naturally in the hospital not three years ago. Yesterday, her mom called to brag how the kid decided to amuse herself in her pediatrician’s waiting room by lecturing everyone around about numbers. The mothers of older children were very impressed. Then kid proceeded to “read” from her Barbapapa book to the other kids, explaining to them that Barbapapa was lonely and that was why Francois brought him over to the doctor and so on.

      The thought of bragging how the kid was born never crossed my SIL’s mind. She’s proud of how the kid is shaping out to be, with the active input of many, not the act of it exiting her nether regions. But then, she’s a mother and you… you are a birther, no matter how many “Professor”s you might add single-handedly to your uneducated ass.

    • Griffin

      “Dead babies result from all sorts of births, but be skeptical of the OB chortling about them on the internet.”

      I’m certainly not chortling. In fact, laughter couldn’t be further from my mind. I felt aghast and chilled when I read your insouciant dismissal of the babies who are so carelessly killed by you and your murderously narcissistic ilk.

      Poor Ben. I hope at least he has a father around who has tried to compensate for the heinous ignorance and self-absorption of his monstrous mother over the last 16 years.

      • Who?

        If Jenny is actually mistaking the sounds she’s hearing for chortling, she’s even more deranged than her remarks indicate.

        Or maybe she doesn’t know what ‘chortling’ is, but liked the sound of it for an insult?

        • Griffin

          Yes, it is very revealing that she thinks we are LAUGHING at the horrible deaths of Journey Moon and the most recent little girl. Clearly, she thinks birthing is a competition between women: it’s the liberated advanced women who dare bravely to freebirth versus all the rest of us finger-wagging earthbound scaredy-cat women. So every freebirth death, she sees as a point for the finger-waggers, rather than as a horrible preventable tragedy.

          And because she thinks we are as immature, deranged, and narcissistic as she is, she thinks that we jeer and mock when we read of yet another freebirth death.

          It’s truly chilling.

          • Chi

            You don’t know the meaning of the word ‘humble’.

          • Sincere? Most humble and SINCERE apology ever offered to a fake blogger…

          • Chi

            I seriously doubt you’re capable of being sincere either. Especially when you’re unwilling to entertain any viewpoint other than your own.

            You can try to deny all you want, but Dr Amy is just that. A doctor. She doesn’t automatically lose the title because she’s retired. And you have issues with her tone? Fine. But if you were an OBGYN who saw babies dying in homebirths (both midwife and unassisted), babies who otherwise would have survived if they’d had timeless access to medical care, you’d be pissed too.

            In this modern age with all the technology at our disposal, healthy term babies should NOT be dying. But they are, because people like you convince mothers that doctors are the enemy and then cheer them on, even when things are going catastrophically wrong and the baby ends up dead.

            And then you refuse to acknowledge the death, spouting such bullshit as ‘babies die in hospital too’, ‘it was God’s will’ or some other such shit and silence those poor grieving mothers and bury their babies twice because hearing about a preventable death ‘spreads fear’.

            God forbid another expectant mother hears about a baby dying and thinks it might happen to her too, which, given the ‘safety’ of homebirth, it just might.

            So fuck you, fuck your tone policing. Whether you acknowledge it or not, there is blood on your hands.

    • Desiree Scorcia

      My first was born, healthy and screamimg, by emergency csection .When the doctor held her up, i saw the face of God. I can describe it better than that in a comment, but it was a moment when the veil lifted .My second, a planned section, just lit the room with the kind of joy that courses through your body and you can feel. Also felt like heaven reaches down for just a second.
      It’s sad that you don’t understand that ALL births are miracles.

      • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

        My first was born in less then 45 minutes after a few pushes. I thought to myself “this is it”? Labor was so easy and basically painless. Then I went into labor with my second child. Arriving at the hospital I was almost 10 centimeters dialated but there was a huge problem. My son had passed meconiom and was in severe fetal distress. His head was basically stuck and he was too big to be born naturally. After an emergency c section my almost 11 pound baby was born looking as if he went ten rounds with Mohammed Ali. He was alive and healthy and that’s all that mattered. My doctor said that in the olden days one or both of us would have been dead. I had two more children and they were born by planned c sections. For those women who say birth is their choice it’s so unfortunate that their babies have no choice. For those babies who do die because of their mother’s negligence my heart goes out to the babies who never got to live their life.

    • RudyTooty

      I don’t know what’s “breathtakingly successful” about groups that promote birth practices that increase the unnecessary deaths of people’s children.

      A strange idea of success.

      Babies dying preventable deaths is a gross failure, the encouragement of it is psychopathic.

        • RudyTooty

          Is your website traffic down?
          Or is your link infested with malware?

          Not interested, but thanks.

        • rational thinker

          We dont care you narcissist

          • Obviously you do you irrational non thinking nube for Big Pharma…

          • Sue

            It must be a slow day in homebirth numptyland when a person tries to ply their trade on a science-based blog.

            And the self-conferred Ph(ony)D? Hilarious!

          • rational thinker

            Have you heard the term even bad attention is still attention. Thats why you came here for attention be it good or bad cause you have a giant ego that needs feeding, thats a rational thought.

    • MaineJen

      LOL! Does your 16 year old son know his mom still talks in minute detail about his birth on the internet?

      • Barbara Cronin-Chanda

        Maybe she can invite his peers over and they can sit around the campfire singing Hallelujah as she rehashes his birth story to them all. I’m sure he would be quite proud to have his teenage friends listen to Mama tell the tale of his birth. My kids would be mortified.

    • moto_librarian

      HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Silly me – on our sons’ birthdays, we have parties for them and serve cake and ice cream. I’m finally able to go weeks, even months, without thinking about the severity of the complications that I suffered from an all natural delivery (thankfully, in a hospital with a real midwife). Of course, we are able to have these birthday celebrations because we all lived, thanks to modern medicine. I suppose Jenny figures that I could have chewed on a bit of my placenta to end the pph and stitched my own cervix back together with a needle and cotton thread. Only a narcissist makes a child’s birthday all about her. I’m almost sad for you if this is your greatest achievement in life.

  • namaste

    God, what the actual fuck is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!!!!!!

    • rational thinker

      Low IQ, mental illness maybe both im not sure

  • I read a statement like “four years ago my baby was born sleeping ” and I want to vomit.

    • Emilie Bishop

      I loathe that phrase. Granted, I haven’t had the trauma of a stillbirth, but that phrase has always felt disingenuous, no matter what the circumstances. When my father-in-law died a few months ago, I asked my son’s preschool and Sunday school teachers for advice on how to tell my son about his grandpa. They all said don’t use euphemisms, especially likening death to sleep, because he needs to understand death is different. Yet grown women insist on using the same euphemism. Naming things for what they are helps with processing. Giving them nicknames is a form of denial.

      • Alli

        I’ve heard those terms used by parents who’ve lost term babies in hospital despite availing themselves of all the medical attention they could find, and I can understand it could be a comfort for them to speak of it that way. They’re adults, they understand death, and if that’s how they cope, then that’s what matters. But when you’ve deliberately courted disaster, it is nauseating for sure.

    • rational thinker

      I dont like it either I think they just have a problem saying born dead cause that is reality and they dont want to deal with reality. My nephew was born literally sleeping, the doctor woke him a 30 seconds later then he opened his eyes for ten seconds then went back to sleep it was so cute and funny. That is “born sleeping” a big difference from born dead.

      • Who?

        Saying the baby is ‘born dead’ is bad for the brand, pure and simple.

  • RudyTooty

    You recently said, Dr Tuteur, that what changes someone’s mind is the death of a newborn.

    Do you think with these comments that they are starting to reveal the deadliness of this unassisted birth movement? Or will they continue to bury these babies twice? Will a moderator eventually delete these comments?

    It makes sense, that something as tragic as the death of a newborn would be powerfully persuasive, and therefore be something that would be actively concealed by these groups – in the case of Freebirth Society – they were deleting comments and mentions of risk and death as fast as they could.

    Midwives are notorious for doing this as well.

    They only want to propagate their own propaganda, not the truth. They actively censor the truth and the reality around the risks of home birth / unassisted birth.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      For the second case described above, the mother refused to come back to post to the group because she didn’t want to spread fear. She was afraid of being chastised if she came back – not chastised for her irresponsible behavior, but for fearmongering.

      They absolutely are burying these babies twice.

      So whether or not loss parents are allowed or not, they very clearly feel as if they are not. Former group members feel unwelcome if their baby dies.

      Can’t you just feel the love?

      • Griffin

        God, it’s all so awful.

        It’s the gathering of the Narcissists United Club. Also known as the Cognitive Dissonants All Together Association. Or the Maternal Sociopath Organization.

      • RudyTooty

        Group members only get love if their stunt births produce more propaganda (live born babies in harrowing circumstances) for the promoting mission.

        IF the birth was chronicled with professional photography – even better.

  • sdsures

    The only good thing about these babies dying in “freebirth” is that they are spared life as being the child of such selfish, moronic women.