Stop laysplaining vaccination to me!

Female doctor making stop sign with her hand

Pro-tip: Don’t bother telling me what doctors do or don’t learn in medical school; I went to medical school and you didn’t.

Don’t bother telling me how many “unhindered” vaginal births obstetricians have seen; I’m an obstetrician and you’re not.

And for the love of all that is holy, stop laysplaining vaccination to me!

Your belief you know more than physicians reflects your ignorance of science coupled to your extreme gullibility, fortified by your utter lack of self-awareness.

What’s laysplaining? It’s my new term for the annnoying behavior of a layperson (typically an anti-vaxxer or alternative health advocate) who “explains” disease, prevention or treatment to a medical professional in a condescending, overconfident, oversimplified and inaccurate way.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your treasured belief that you know more about vaccination than physicians reflects your ignorance of science coupled to your extreme gullibility, fortified by your utter lack of self-awareness.

You’re like the second grader who having mastered addition and subtraction declares that calculus is a plot by math professors to oppress students. There is no possible way for a second grader to understand the substance, utility and necessity of calculus; he or she must accept the word of those with expertise in higher math.

Similarly, there is no possible way for a layperson — EVEN YOU — to fully understand the substance, utility and necessity of vaccination; most adults, being more mature and self-aware than second graders, understand that they have to accept the word of those with expertise in medicine, immunology and epidemiology.

No, you’re not Galileo or Darwin, who ushered in great paradigm shifts in science and neither are the quacks you follow on Facebook. Both Galileo and Darwin were scientists, fully trained and completely up to date with contemporary scientific literature.

Both were engaged in basic scientific research and made extensive, mind-numbingly detailed observations of the natural world before articulating their theories.

Both PUBLISHED their findings so that other scientists could critique them and potentially reject them.

They didn’t declare the result of their research and expect anyone to blindly accept it. They understood that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and they provided it.

They did not “trust” their intuition and they didn’t expect you to trust yours.

And critically, they didn’t attempt to monetize their findings.

To my knowledge — feel free to correct me — in the entire history of medical science there has never been a lay person who caused a paradigm shift. You’re not going to be the first one and neither is the quack you follow on Facebook.

But wait! Doctors can be wrong, so maybe they’re wrong about vaccination.

Yes, doctors can be wrong, and other doctors — not laypeople — might subsequently correct them.

Prior to the germ theory of disease, doctors were unaware that they could transmit microscopic pathogens from cadavers to live patients. Semmelweis, through careful observation and experimentation, proved they could. Laypeople did not make that discovery, nor did they adopt Semmelweis’ recommendations until the medical profession as a whole had done so.

How about the debacle that was thalidomide? Doctors prescribed it to pregnant women, not understanding that the medication could cross the placenta, and children suffered severe limb defects as a result. But the connection between thalidomide and limb defects was not discovered and explained by laypeople. It was discovered by Frances Kelsey one of the first female physicians (also a pharmacologist) at the FDA.

So don’t tell me how measles was “disappearing” before the vaccine was licensed; I studied epidemiology and you didn’t.

Don’t tell me adjuvants are toxic; I studied both immunology and toxicology and you studied neither.

Don’t tell me that Dr. Bob Sears agrees with you; I read the scientific literature and didn’t see his name accompanying his published findings.

Don’t tell me vaccines “shed” or herd immunity doesn’t exist; I’ve practiced medicine and you haven’t.

Please, please stop laysplaining vaccination to me! You aren’t dazzling me with your knowledge; you’re merely confirming what I knew about you already: you are deeply ignorant of science, thoroughly baffled by statistics, and setting a new standard for both gullibility and lack of insight.

F3A37AF3-E836-42E0-BE57-457F85327F4D

  • Risha Trethewey

    I get the maddening frustration of being talked down to by laypeople, but I don’t believe the world of MD’s is exactly monolithic about vaccines. We live in the Information Age and it is easy to find conflicting opinions from qualified people on many different subjects. The Information Age is wonderful and terrible for this reason.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      It is about as monolithic as it could be. There is virtually no physician or public health official who questions the benefits of vaccines. The few that do so tend are generally trying to monetize their point of view.

  • Jack Sanders

    I understand the frustration, but this “because I’m a doctor and you’re not” clearly isn’t working (and we live in a country where “I don’t get it”and distrust in experts is shaping all sorts of policy). Is there not a simple, clear way to debunk antivax arguments without just saying “because I’m educated and you’re not?”

    If people don’t understand it, explain it. I still have yet to see a single news story clearly explaining why antivaxxers are wrong.

    • rational thinker

      People don’t listen if you are nice Dr tutuer has tried nice in the past and it does not work. Using a angry tone is sometimes the only way people listen especially anti vaxxers. Thing of a comparison like Madonna and shock value, It gets peoples attention. This article is mostly aimed at people sitting on the fence. When the anti vax morons show up and make fools of themselves it helps you see how dumb and crazy, these liars are. Then the target person on the fence will then (more often than not) go get their kids vaxxed immediately and the article with the angry tone has served its purpose.

      • Jack Sanders

        I’m not talking about nice or not nice. People don’t listen if you condescend. It’s like telling someone “because I said so,” without explaining it.

        There’s a terrifying Netflix documentary on Flat Earthers — and the terrifying part is that their arguments start to make sense if you don’t have a lot of scientific literacy (nonsense starts to make as much sense as sense). It ties into all sorts of conspiracy theories — they don’t trust expertise and think they’re being lied to (and treated like idiots).

        So they turn to their own senses and what they can actually confirm. So we get Trump denying global warming because of a cold snap, or people thinking vacines and autism must be linked because they don’t know how else to explain increases in autism diagnoses.

        • Jack Sanders

          BTW, I’ve made similar comments on Dr. Jen Gunter’s blog and she hasn’t published them. Just saying that there are no links to autism and vaccines doesn’t make sense to people who don’t understand what that means, how that’s known and who think that doctors and pharmaceutical companies are only saying this because they’re making money from vaccines (sure, alternative medicine makes people money too, but it’s not part of the establishment).

          Clearly, ignoring this isn’t working.

  • Quote, Petey. It is simple. search my sentence and post the source. Can you do that or is that too much for you ?

    • Peter Harris

      If it’s so simple, produce a link now.

      But of course, like all your other claims, this too is false.

      • Nope, Petey. Your claim of copy past, your burden of proof. Where is it ? Not even able to do that ?

        • Peter Harris

          The burden of proof is your yours, in particular today, your claim that you had many patents.

          You could not produce one, which goes to show, you lie about everything.

          No peer reviewed studies, and no patents

  • Jeff Cooper

    Dr. Tuteur, where have you been all my life!? I loved this article and look forward to more brilliance. I fight the vaccine battle every single day. I tell parents that my superpower is snatching children from the jaws of death and I do that with vaccines.

    • MaineJen

      Love your Starfleet uniform!!

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Ironically, the ones who have lost their respect for nature are any-vaxxers. (Disturbing image)

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3f79f4c097157ee1fdb034e2c3da5210d89cdf599153fd2677336d2f2d72876c.jpg

    • Sally Ketchum Ladd

      What a ridiculous and irrelevant comment. That looks like a child with leprosy (for which there is no vaccine). And WTH do vaccines have to do with nature? They’re the anathema to nature.

      • space_upstairs

        It’s one of the last known cases of smallpox, which was part of Nature’s fury against humanity until it disappeared after widespread vaccination. But surely you would say smallpox either wasn’t eradicated with vaccines or smallpox vaccination predates Big Pharma and therefore doesn’t count.

        • demodocus

          Nature is one mean mother

      • Mike Stevens

        Hah, well HELLO! …you are telling the experts what a case of smallpox looks like?

      • Who?

        Ignorant and arrogant.

        Someone should post that picture and your ignorant and incorrect diagnosis everywhere you appear on social media.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD
        • Peter Harris

          ResearchGate??

          Hilarious!

          The Facebook for wannabe researchers.

      • rational thinker

        Its not irrelevant its actually very deep and brilliant. Now I am done here. Good luck everyone.

      • MaineJen

        I do hope someone screenshots your response to this before you flounce. It is clearly smallpox, and you clearly have NO idea what you’re talking about. Sally, I’m going to level with you: you are out of your league here. You’ve given me a good chuckle, but I’m done too.

      • StephanieJR

        What about a disease which was found in nature, but specifically engineered to be incredibly infectious and deadly? I’ll admit, I’m no expert in anything, and everyone here has already talked to you about human diseases/vaccines and tried to make you see sense, and that doesn’t seem to have worked, so let’s see if talking about rabbit diseases and vaccines help. If there’s one thing I do know, it’s bunnies and their care.

        Myxomatosis (or myxi) is a particularly agonising disease; in rabbits, it’s main symptoms are tumours around the head and genitals, blindness and fever, with possible further bacterial infections, including pneumonia. It causes death within two weeks. There is no cure, only palliative or euthanasia. It mostly affects Europeon rabbits, including domestic pets. It’s spread by insects such as fleas and by direct contact.

        Myxi was first discovered in 1896 in Uruguay, where it spread throughout the local wild populations; in 1950, it was deliberately released in Australia as a solution to the out of control, and environmentally devastating, wild rabbit population there. It was very effective, taking the number of rabbits from 600 million down to 100 million in two years. In 1952, on an estate in France, it was again released in an area where it did not naturally exist, and again reduced the rabbit population by 90% (in two years). It then spread to Britain a year later, and was encouraged as a rabbit extermination method, and may have killed up to 99% of the population in one outbreak.

        One thing about rabbits is how easy they are to study, and this includes when they develop a natural immunity and genetic resistance. Myxi now kills 50% of infected rabbits. That’s your natural immunity, in an adaptable animal that lives fast, breeds fast, and dies young.

        So let’s take a look at the rabbit calicivirus, also known as rabbit viral haemorrhage disease (RVHD), of which there is two strains, one older, one newer. Again, it mainly affects Europeon rabbits, of which all domesticated rabbits come from. It’s symptoms are convulsions, fever, paralysis, cramps, bleeding from the nose and eyes, and internal bleeding, with blood clots in major organs, such as the heart and lungs. But scarily, most rabbits show no symptoms at all, and simply die within five days of contracting the virus, which is spread by direct contact, insects, or by the wind. It can survive for up to 215 days without a host. It has a mortality rate of about 90%.

        Strain 1 was first discovered in 1983 in China, where fourteen million rabbits died in nine months. It spread throughout Europe and Asia. Once introduced to Australia, in 1995, it killed ten million rabbits within eight weeks. (This outbreak was accidental, though it was under research for its use of population control) In 2017, a specialised strain was deliberately released, intended to better survive certain environments.

        Strain 2 is relatively newer, first appearing in France in 2010, increasing in attention in 2016. I’ll be honest here and say that most of what I know about it is anecdotal; multiple reports from rabbit owners all over Europe and Britain detailing that it is far more infectious and deadly than strain 1. Multiple outbreaks devastating wild populations, many poor bunnies dropping dead with no clear explanation, and confirmed cases a hundred miles away from where I live. Rabbit immunity towards RVHD is variable, but does not seem to last beyond one generation.

        These viruses did start out in nature, but were quickly made to be even more deadly by human intervention, and deliberately released in areas they were not native to control rabbit populations.

        Thankfully, there are vaccinations available for all three viruses; one which contains myxomatosis and RVHD1, and another of RVHD1 and RVHD2.

        I have a rabbit. Her name is Amy. I love her very much, so of course I got her vaccinated. She gets boosters every year, and takes it like a champ. She’s more put out by the car drive to the vet’s and back. I can’t be paid by Big Pharma, as I highly doubt the conspiracy has reached this low a level. I’m a pretty crappy shill to only be talking about bunnies. I sat and wrote this wall of text out of a desire to educate. I’m not an expert, but I’ve done a little research. A little, enough to understand that I need to protect my bunny.

        I really wonder how you’ll spin this one!

        • space_upstairs

          Let me guess. “Viruses that kill 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 or more, ok, that’s one thing. But viruses and bacteria that kill only 1 in 500 or 1 in 1000 and they were probably sick anyway because of other shots they got for diseases with low mortality rates? That’s just selling for the sake of selling, moron. And are you sure the shots for your rabbit aren’t going to give her some kind of rabbit autism, Parkinson’s, or Alzheimer’s that would ruin the quality of her life?”

          • StephanieJR

            I’d laugh if it wasn’t so accurate. It’ll be a new level of insanity to claim animals can ‘get’ autism, but I wouldn’t put it past them…

            (As for quality of life – this bunny is so spoilt, sometimes I’ll hold and squeeze her water bottle for her so she can drink faster. I changed an old pillow she has from a too firm one to a softer one. She’s such a velcro rabbit, she shoves her head under my hand to get petted, and regularly climbs onto my lap and sleeps in my arms. I don’t think she can get much more attached!)

          • Mike Stevens

            “It’ll be a new level of insanity to claim animals can ‘get’ autism, but I wouldn’t put it past them…”
            Oh it’s a real thing, don’t worry.
            There is no bottom in the vast pool of antivax wingnuttery.

          • FallsAngel

            My cats are autistic. /s

          • Chi

            Apparently all cats have Asperger’s, according to the adorable picture book my parents got for my autistic daughter.

          • My first dog was on the dog autism spectrum if such a thing exists. She was aloof and cat-like even as a puppy, unlike her littermates who ate the same food and received the same shots and clamored for attention from potential adopters.

            Almost like that was …just how she was born.

          • StephanieJR

            Oh sweet zombie Jesus. There really is no end to it, is there? People that stupid actually exist.

      • Daleth

        And WTH do vaccines have to do with nature? They’re the anathema to nature.

        Oh, not at all. Vaccines are humans doing exactly what nature does, but more elegantly.

        We observed that in the case of some horrible diseases, once a person gets that disease, they become immune to it. We figured out why that happens (their body reacts to the disease by creating antibodies, which remain in the blood and prevent future infections). We then created vaccines that do the same thing, with the same thing (the original viruses), but do NOT cause disease.

        In other words we watched how nature works and then created something, out of the same raw materials, that provides the benefits that nature provides, but without the downside.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Oh, not at all. Vaccines are humans doing exactly what nature does, but more elegantly.

          Yeah, you would think that “stimulating your immune system to prevent the onset of disease” would be the naturowhacko wet dream?

          And, as opposed to something like garlic, this actually works.

          It’s the same with the nutty vitamin K refusers. I though vitamin supplements were all good? The same people who will take 2000 mg of vitamin C twice a day for….everything will refuse vit K shots for their baby.

      • tomonthebay

        Vaccines are anathema to nature? My head is spinning from the stupidity encompassed in that remark. Vaccines are based on the natural principles of immunology and take advantage of them to protect us from pathogens.

        • Logic Contradict

          Not natural. It’s based on the immunological theory of the danger/damage model in a limited sense.
          The immune system forms a specific response to damages associated with diseases and subsequently memorizes the antigens associated to the disease. The vaccine leverages this phenomenon, but only works in the presence of damage, which is the reason why most subunit/inactivated vaccines require the addition of an adjuvant.

          Since the adjuvant causes damage in a different way than natural disease, the immune response is different/limited.

          But sure, we take advantage of the danger/damage model to make vaccines work, but there is also a tradeoff. The immune system cannot differentiate between a disease-related antigen vs any other antigen. They only know whether to classify an antigen as dangerous based on the antigens associated to that damage.

          One of the fundamental problems with vaccines is the issue of contamination. Many contaminant antigens due to the manufacturing process subsequently make their way into the vaccine and are absorbed onto aluminum adjuvants. It is well known that it is impossible to 100% purify disease antigens. Filtration methods only work so far as to remove particles that are antigen/viral size or larger.

          The anathema to nature is that our immune systems are potentially being misprogrammed to be sensitized to many non-disease antigens. You can tell because our society has had a significant increase in immunological issues over the past few decades.

          • tomonthebay

            Nonsense. There is no “misprogramming” going on.

          • You are wrong. The immune system diffetentiates between self and non self if the stimulus is large enough to trigger an immune response. Whether that rund presents a disease vor not is completely irrelevant. In a vaccine, the immune system reacts to all present antigens – exactly as it is designed for. One antigen happens to be the disease antigen.

          • Logic Contradict

            DNA released from dying host cells mediates aluminum adjuvant activity

            https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.2403

            alum causes cell death and the subsequent release of host cell DNA, which acts as a potent endogenous immunostimulatory signal mediating alum adjuvant activity.

            Vaccine Adjuvants: Mode of Action

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728558/

            alum stimulates the induction of uric acid (12), which is produced normally as a damage-associated molecular pattern (DAMP) by injured cells. Released uric acid is then internalized by and activates APCs via the inflammasome, thereby providing a downstream, secondary immunostimulatory signal in response to immunization with alum-containing vaccines

          • Logic Contradict

            "the immune system reacts to all present antigens - exactly as it is designed for. One antigen happens to be the disease antigen."

            Do you know how incredibly dangerous this is?

            https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/20170113080336/http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/BloodVaccinesandOtherBiologics/VaccinesandRelatedBiologicalProductsAdvisoryCommittee/UCM319573.pdf

            Small amounts of residual cell substrate DNA unavoidably occur in all viral vaccines as well as other biologics produced using cell substrates

          • First an immune system reacts to all antigens that are not identified as “self” or it is not trained to tolerante – which is the case with certain food proteins.

            Second, adjuvants are not antigens.

            Third, in order to trigger an immune response, a certain antigen burden is needed. Traces are not sufficient.

          • Logic Contradict

            And how does the immune system differentiate which ones to tolerate and which ones to not tolerate?

            I never said adjuvants were antigens. Antigens can be practically any substance, proteins, lipids, polysaccharides, DNA, etc.

            And what antigen burden is required?

          • Ever heard of clonal selection ?

            Quote “Antigens can be practically any substance, proteins, lipids, polysaccharides, DNA, etc.”

            Nope. The have to have a certain size and certain properties.

            Re no claim that adjuvants are antigens. The why did you mention Al antigens ? Al salts are adjuvants, so what is it now ?

          • Peter Harris

            And what sizes and properties would they be Thomas?

            It’s funny, you talking about immune system, when in the past, you have shown your complete ignorance on this subject.

          • Verbatim quotes, Petey. You can do that and failure to do so proves that you are lying, Pete.

          • Who?

            You’ll get crickets, tears or a personal attack, based on Petey’s previous style here.

            But I imagine you already know that.

          • Yes, and I reply with his connection to child p*n.

          • Peter Harris

            Again Thomas where is the proof to back up your sick and twisted lies?

          • Oh, you need a memory booster ? You wanted it, you will get it and be exposed yet another times.

            Here is the threat:

            “If you really are Thomas Mohr, it would be so easy to find your peers, and
            show them pictures of you with little boys and little girls.

            After all, you have clearly demonstrated, the powers of photo shopping.”

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/naturopathicdiaries/naturopathic_medicine_has_too_much_quackery/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=comment_date#comment-4140818404

            and here the admittance to have access to the necessary templates:

            “You are an idiot aren’t you, it’s very simple, your picture is on the
            Internet. And because you are overweight and obese, fitting a body will
            not be difficult. I may not have the technical/software skills to undertake this, but I know who to contact for such a job.”

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/naturopathicdiaries/naturopathic_medicine_has_too_much_quackery/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=comment_date#comment-4140847493

            Petey, what is wrong with you ?

            This is how verbatim quoting works, Peter Harris, naturopath in Brisbane.

          • Peter Harris

            And which website does this nonsense come from Thomas?

            I bet you cannot say.

          • In fact, Petey, I can. It is the original disqus post you posted, Petey.

          • Peter Harris

            And which website would that be?

            A criminal website, that you run with somebody going by the name of Britt Marie Hermes?

          • So you call disqus a criminal website, Petey ?

          • Peter Harris

            Hahaha, you are so stupid, you’d much prefer to make yourself look stupid, than actually read what I said.

            I didn’t mention disqus, I meant the dodgy website you run with Britt Marie Hermes.

          • Who?

            He won’t like that.

            He also considers himself quite the expert on Australian architectural features.

          • Peter Harris

            Just like your complete ignorance of biochemistry…

            “Aside that, feeding silica water to your son is akin to feeding sand to him. Has the same effect.”

          • Peter Harris

            And forth, clearly, you have no understanding of what you’re talking about, and you have no understanding of the humoral immunity versus cell-mediated immunity.

          • Can you explain it Petey ? What is a DAMP in connection with humoral immunity ? What is the mTOR pathway ? What would a typical PAMP be ?

          • Peter Harris

            First time us, you need to understand the difference between Cell mediated immunity via antibodies, humoral immunity… and your copying and pasting is not convincing.

            And why are you posting your gibberish at 2:30 a.m. Austrian time, when you should be asleep or socialising with friends?

          • So you do not know what a DAMP is. Let me lecture you, you clown: It is a Danger Asociated Molecular Pattern. You also do not know what a PAMP is. It is a Pathogen Associated Molecular Pattern. The latter would f.i. be LPS (I bet you don’t know either what that is). Fact is, Peter, you have no idea whatsoever how the immune system works.

          • Peter Harris

            Again Thomas, and this time, no copy and paste from simple English Wikipedia.

          • Petey, it is you who quotes simple English Wikipedia. DAMP is not even mentioned therein.

          • Peter Harris

            What on earth are you talking about?

            Have you considered the difference between humoral immunity versus cell-mediated immunity?

            No, because you’re a fool and a fake researcher.

          • Well, Petey, both distinguish between self and non self, Petey. Cell mediated immunity via antibodies, humoral immunity via PAMPs and DAMPs. I bet you do not know what that stands for.

          • Peter Harris

            Once again, your obfuscation and delays in answering a simple question on the immune system, proves you know nothing about the immune system, other than your copy and paste from Simple English Wikipedia.

          • Mike Stevens

            Thank you, LogicContradict, for that wonderful example of “layspaining” in all its unfettered glory!

          • JGC

            Adjuvants work by ‘causing damage’–who knew?

            Here I thought they bound to toll-like receptors, receptors for costimulatory ligands, etc, initiating endocytosis, antigen processing, etc. leading to a TH1 or TH2 response in the vaccinated individual.

            Instead it seems they give the immune system the equivalent of a punch in the nose

          • Logic Contradict

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5712329/

            “The depot hypothesis is today more or less abandoned, and instead replaced by the assumption that ABAs induce an inflammation at the injection site. Induction of an inflammatory response is consistent with immune activation initiated by recognition of molecular patterns associated with danger or damage (DAMPs), and the latter are derived from endogenous molecules that normally reside intracellularly. When extracellularly expressed, because of damage, stress or cell death, a sterile inflammation is induced. In this paper, we report the induction of DAMP release by viable cells after phagocytosis of aluminium-based adjuvants.”

          • JGC

            As the citation you provide indicates, “ABAs induce an inflammation at the injection site”–they don’t cause damage at the injection site–by (as I indicated in my previous response) binding to toll-like and other receptors.

            This produces a molecular signal pattern associated with damage, rather than a molecular signal pattern which was caused by damage.

          • Logic Contradict

            The point is damage signals are still being generated. You’re welcome to provide citation to support your claims. I think we’re arguing the same thing here.

            I cited other sources as well:

            DNA released from dying host cells mediates aluminum adjuvant activity
            https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.2403
            alum causes cell death and the subsequent release of host cell DNA, which acts as a potent endogenous immunostimulatory signal mediating alum adjuvant activity.

            Vaccine Adjuvants: Mode of Action
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728558/
            alum stimulates the induction of uric acid (12), which is produced normally as a damage-associated molecular pattern (DAMP) by injured cells. Released uric acid is then internalized by and activates APCs via the inflammasome, thereby providing a downstream, secondary immunostimulatory signal in response to immunization with alum-containing vaccines

            The immunobiology of aluminium adjuvants: how do they really work?
            https://www.cell.com/trends/immunology/fulltext/S1471-4906(09)00248-8
            infiltrating phagocytes will find an unlimited diet of particulate Al Adj at the injection site and will ‘eat’ until they die, thereby releasing various damage-associated-molecular-patterns (DAMPs). The next line of phagocytosing cells will thus encounter an environment rich in both particulate Al Adj and DAMPs; this would increase the possibility of activation of the Nalp3 inflammasome, and the production of IL-1B, and thus, induction of inflammation and increased recruitment, activation, and maturation of immune competent cells

          • JGC

            My mistake! I had thought the claim you originally made and were trying to support was that adjuvants worked by actually causing damage.

            Glad to have cleared up that misapprehension.

          • Logic Contradict

            Judging from the responses I got from other posters, it seems that they don’t really understand immunology as much as you do.

        • Peter Harris

          And what’s your historical precedent there Tommy Boy?

  • Daleth

    The first link says that an autopsy determined the girl died from a Benadryl overdose (or, to be exact, an overdose of the main ingredient of Benadryl). If you google “benadryl overdose death,” tons of articles and medical-journal case studies come up. People have even used Benadryl to commit suicide.

    So is there any particular reason you think that article is evidence that the HPV vaccine can kill?

    I’ll await your answer before wasting time reading any of your other links.

  • JoyJoyJoy

    I see your point and agree somewhat. But you are being a little condescending. I’m currently pregnant and had an OB nurse try to shut me down with a similar line of reasoning on something I disagreed about. Except that I’m a registered medical laboratory scientist with a PhD in pathobiology. You don’t know everything either. Luckily, my OB knows I have the knowledge and training to make some of my own decisions. But I wanted to just have a “no, let me explain some science to you, you little twerp,” to that nurse.

    • FallsAngel

      Talk about condescending, Ms. PhD.

      • JoyJoyJoy

        I basically matched her tone.

        • FallsAngel

          Well that was real helpful, I’m sure.

          • Logic Contradict

            You’re certainly not helpful. What was the point of this whole exchange anyways? Your input was completely unwarranted.

          • momofone

            Oh, the irony.

          • FallsAngel

            Calling a nurse a twerp is helpful? I know, Joy-Joy-Joy didn’t say it, she just thought it. It’s going to be a long pregnancy with that attitude, and it may be that some day during that pregnancy, may need the skills and knowledge of this nurse she thinks she’s so much smarter than.

          • Who?

            I know right, what a way to live.

            Being the smartest person in the room is irrelevant if you’re the one needing help.

          • FallsAngel

            Thank you!

          • Mike Stevens
          • AnnaPDE

            So have we now arrived at the oh so popular “nurses know everything, in particular better than doctors or scientists specialising in the given topic” point in this forum?

            Then let’s just remember that a good proportion of the “baby stomachs are 5ml”, “lactation never fails”, “brick dust diapers are fine”, “your splitting headache and massive blood pressure are just FTM hysteria” nurses often encountered by posters here are numerous and real. And these are just the baby-related examples.

            Nope, sorry. It’s one thing to say “stop laysplaining” to someone who is clearly clueless, talking out of their ass, while you actually have scientific training and know your stuff. It’s quite another when your knowledge is rudimentary and you don’t even recognise a valid concern.

          • FallsAngel

            Wow! Someone doesn’t like nurses!

            Who said that? What “valid concern” did this Joy-Joy-Joy express? None. But she pulled an “appeal to authority” and called the nurse a “twerp” in her head. Again, it’s going to be a long pregnancy.

          • AnnaPDE

            I don’t have anything against nurses — but I don’t assume by default that they are particularly competent, or know more about a given topic than someone with a basic science background — because out of the sample that I’ve seen, most didn’t. That includes my ICU nurse family member who is moronic to a level that I would rather have a heart attack alone than with her around, and the various L&D nurses that I had the not so great pleasure of encountering when my son was born. The average lay person at least takes symptoms somewhat seriously and asks for help quickly, instead of dismissing them in a patronising voice and not even noticing when things go south.

            I have also had my share of nurses laysplaining that weighted feeds are bad, that it’s impossible for a non-nurse to understand the measurements, and that they therefore won’t let me use the locked-away hospital scale to check my son’s breastmilk intake. (The fact that I’m a maths PhD and work as a data scientist did not change anyone’s mind, don’t worry.) Guess whose kid was accidentally starved as a result.

            So no, I would not assume per se that the nurse in Joy-Joy-Joy’s case had any leg to stand on when it came to actual knowledge about some specific topic that Joy-Joy-Joy happens to be an expert on. And I’m fed up with this idea that a reference to post-graduate science qualifications are “false authority” compared to what a general nurse learns.

          • FallsAngel

            You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder about nurses.

          • AnnaPDE

            Not with nurses themselves. With them I’m just a bit wary, and very relieved when I come across one who knows what they’re doing.

            What I get pissed off by is this baseless veneration of the supposed massive knowledge of any random nurse, which is taken to trump any patient’s, regardless of actual expertise.
            It’s the exact post-factual mindset with which a CPM certificate plus a few hours of obsessive googling is taken to be superior to Dr Amy’s medical degree by your typical lactivist, homebirth CPM and anti-vaxxer.

          • FallsAngel

            Give it a rest.

    • Mike Stevens

      And when your infant starts decelerating on the fetal heart rate monitor, you’ll be wanting to scream “Sorry I called you a twerp, just please come here and help me, please!”

      • JoyJoyJoy

        Actually, I take great comfort and pleasure in the knowledge that she is an office nurse and will be nowhere near me when I’m labor on the labor and delivery floor at the hospital. She is incompetent, rude and unprofessional.

  • Matthew Leo

    I do wish doctors learned more statistics in medical school, or before they enter medical school. Or if they teach statistics in medical school, I wish doctors remembered it more. When I’ve discussed doing tests with doctors I have yet to meet one that remembers enough about conditional probabilities to understand when a test is unlikely to be useful or even might be misleading. Call it mathsplaining if you like.

    Of course the anti-vaxxers are even worse.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Was there any specific test that you were worried about?

  • Here is a sound strategy: Belittle your target audience by comparing them to second graders and by bashing their intelligence throughout the entire article. I am sure they are all thoroughly convinced now. The United States is not the be all and end all of science. There are other countries, in scandinavia for example, that believe it is not necessary to vaccinate children nearly as much as they are in America. I am not anti-vaccination by any means, but when we moved to scandinavia, the doctors were astonished at the number of vaccinations our 3 year old had already received. Scandinavians have their own peer reviewed research and contradict American doctors on many issues. I am not saying that one system is better than the other. But clearly, both systems can’t be right in their methods. Another example is the clear overuse of antibiotics in America. The Danes limited the amount of antibiotics prescribed, and have effectively reduced the number of super-bugs circulating. And if you ask a Dane’s dentist about the use of silver fillings versus plastic, they rely on completely different data that states silver fillings cause teeth to crack over time. This is why the Danes use plastic instead of metal for teeth fillings. Again, completely different research conducted by another group of scientists. You don’t have to be a doctor to see conflicting peer review studies in action. I think it is healthy to have a bit of skepticism.

    • Shanna Kamin Flaschka

      Let me just give you a little example that might mean something to you, since you insist on layspaining in spite of reading an article that shows how ignorant that is. (Or maybe you didn’t read?)

      Several years ago, I was studying in London and became violently ill with salmonella poisoning. I was taken to the ER by ambulance. Instead of giving me some Ciprofloxacin, a basic antibiotic, I was sent to a hospital for infectious diseases for 5 days. In England, they also limit antibiotics. I was in pain for 5 days until they finally decided that the salmonella wouldn’t go away on its own and gave me Cipro.

      I was better almost immediately. Don’t laud a culture for doing things differently because different isn’t always better. And the fact is, despite having different views from American doctors about WHEN to administer such medicine, the doctors in England still knew the science enough to recognize its use.

      In short, you are EXACTLY the person the author is discussing.

      • I never said I was against vaccinations. Perhaps you didn’t read what I wrote. But considering your rude and condescending response, I am very happy to know that you suffered when you got sick in England.

    • Andrew Forber

      I think there may be some confusion about who the “target audience” is, or should be.

      If anti-vaxxers were susceptible to logic or facts they wouldn’t be anti-vaxxers. I can’t read the author’s mind, but the anti-reality crowd are not the true targets of this article.

      Since it’s pretty clear that the nutbar crowd is going to keep believing the delusional BS despite all of the facts and the overwhelming scientific consensus, no column like this is going to change their minds. However it might persuade someone who is on the fence. Public humiliation and ridicule might convince an anti-vaxxer to shut up just a little bit, thereby saving lives of children and other innocents. Other rational people might be encouraged to publicly take on and ridicule the people who are contributing to the problem.

      In that light it is a public duty to do whatever one’s talents lead one to do to prevent the spread of the mental contagion of anti-reality. I think this was a good article.

      Belittle away! Is that rude? Possibly. But bear in mind that these people Are. Killing. Children.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        Thanks! That’s exactly what I had in mind!!

      • StephanieJR

        I read somewhere that internet articles like this one, about certain topics, are not actually about arguing with the other side; it’s about convincing the silent lurkers, whom don’t have hardcore beliefs but may be on the fence. Hearing anti vaxxers callously talking about dead children like this should take any decent person aback, and perhaps cause them to evaluate their owns thoughts on the subject. You’ll never win with some people, but if others come away with a new opinion, it’s worth it.

      • I don’t necessarily agree. I have personally met a lot of these people, and many of them are Trump supporters. Public humiliation and finger wagging only encourages people to double down on their beliefs. It’s basic psychology. The only thing that will change the movement is when more of their children grow up and speak out against their stupidity, such as that kid Ethan Lindenberger is doing now. And even if they themselves don’t change, their children will. I believe in the end, the truth always comes out.

    • Daleth

      when we moved to scandinavia, the doctors were astonished at the number of vaccinations our 3 year old had already received

      I think your memory may be playing tricks on you. Here’s a link to Denmark’s recommendations on childhood vaccines (you mentioned Danes, so I assume that’s the Scandinavian country you meant):
      https://www.sst.dk/en/disease-and-treatment/vaccination/childhood-vaccination-programme

      They recommend all the biggies: diptheria, tetanus, whooping cough, polio, haemophilus influenzae type b, pneumococcal, measles, mumps, rubella, and HPV.

      We only recommend three vaccines that Denmark doesn’t have on their schedule: hep B in infants, rotavirus (which prevents gastrointestinal infections), and chicken pox. Sweden and Norway, BTW, do recommend the Hep B shot for infants, and Norway also recommends rotavirus. Links:
      https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-public-health-agency-of-sweden/communicable-disease-control/vaccinations/vaccination-programmes (Sweden); https://www.fhi.no/en/id/vaccines/childhood-immunisation-programme (Norway). And rotavirus vaccine in Norway: https://www.fhi.no/en/id/vaccines/childhood-immunisation-programme/vaccines-in-CIP/vaccine-against-rotavirus/

      We only recommend three more childhood vaccines than Denmark, two more than Sweden, and one more than Norway. Clearly they do NOT have radically different views on vaccination than we do or think that kids shouldn’t receive “nearly as many” vaccines as they do in the US.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Damn, Pablo’s First law of Internet Discussion rears it’s ugly head!

        Not much response to your post from Aquaman. Then again, what response could there be other than, “Whoops, my bad….:

      • Actually, it’s not the just number of vaccines as much as it is the time they are received. And by the way, 3 MORE vaccines is quite a difference. When we moved to Denmark, my daughter was only 2.5 years old and at that age, the Danish children do not receive nearly as many vaccinations. They are spread out over a longer period of time and given at an older age. Some would argue that having too many vaccinations at once is not a good idea. I can only speak from my experience in Denmark. You are reading your information on Google, so your points are moot.

        • Azuran

          However, what another cherry picked country does is not proof of anything. There is no proof whatsoever that there is any aditionnal risks from giving more vaccine together or over a shorter period. Thats really the only thing that matter. Unless you can provide proof, whatever danemark decided to do does not prove there is a risk.

          • I am not anti-vaccination. I am just against the condescending and ineffective rhetoric used by the author.

        • Daleth

          it’s not the just number of vaccines as much as it is the time they are received

          In this case it’s the same thing. The vaccinations Denmark doesn’t routinely give happen to be Hepatitis B, rotavirus, and chickenpox, all of which are given long before age 2 1/2 in the US and other countries that recommend them.

          In Norway, by age 2 1/2, your daughter would’ve long since gotten all but one of the vaccines kids get in America. Even if you somehow believe that vaccines cause health problems, can you seriously argue that it’s the chickenpox vaccine kids get in the US — which is the ONLY difference between US and Norwegian vaccine programs — that makes the difference? I mean, come on.

          • I don’t believe vaccines cause health problems. Did you read what I originally wrote? I am not anti-vaccine. I had a problem with the tone used by the author of the article.

        • MaineJen

          Where does a mansplainer get his water?

          • From your rotting vagina.

          • MaineJen

            Incorrect!

          • MaineJen

            From a well, actually

    • Deadpool

      Listen, Waterboy. When I want a medical opinion, I’ll ask a doctor. Or maybe Michael Phelps.

      • From one super hero to another, if I wanted to hear from an asshole, I would have farted.

        • Deadpool

          Let me know what website you got your insult from. We should both use the same list to be fair.

          So for now: There are some remarkably dumb people in this world. Thanks for helping me understand that.

          • Upvoted you both for funny insults.

          • You are just figuring out now there are dumb people in this world? Who is the stupid one again? I suspect there are a lot of things you don’t understand about the world. The art of trolling, clearly being one of them.

          • Deadpool

            That was the worst pep talk, ever.

            Also, the fact that it took you two days to come up with, makes me question your intelligence.

          • I don’t get alerts for Disqus since this account was registered via guerilla mail so I must be logged into the platform as Aquaman to view responses. You can keep beating the dead horse about my intelligence. I may have been called a lot of things in my life but stupid is not one of them, so the sentiment while amusing, fails to trigger any childhood insecurities if that is what you were hoping for. Your speciality appears to be in medicine. My expertise is in cyber forensics. Poor Aquaman did not know that when I hijacked his profile. You have at least taken some steps to obfuscate your identity which makes it harder to dox you. It’s a shame though, I have read through many of your posts and can see that you and I actually agree on most things. Like you, I am pro vaccination, but you overlooked that with your original ‘waterboy’ comment, which might have offended poor Justin if he were here to defend himself.

          • Deadpool

            I just like insulting people. Especially anti-vaxxers. And anti-vaxxers pretending to be superheroes, more than most. Which is what your original comment looked like.
            .
            .
            .
            .
            .
            Fish-breath.

          • I have to admit, you have a great sense of humor.

    • Daleth

      when we moved to scandinavia, the doctors were astonished at the number of vaccinations our 3 year old had already received.

      As I pointed out downthread, with cites to Scandinavian vaccine recommendations, when you moved to Denmark your 3-year-old had received a grand total of three more vaccinations than Danish kids: two shots (Hep B and chicken pox) and one oral (rotavirus).

      And I mention Denmark because Scandinavia is not one monolithic thing: if you had moved to Sweden, your daughter would only have received ONE more vaccination than Swedish kids (we routinely give the chickenpox vaccine, Sweden doesn’t; but they do recommend Hep B, rotavirus, and every other vaccine we do for little kids).

      Why are you exaggerating the differences between the US and “Scandinavia”?

      • I don’t think I was exaggerating. But I do think you are overemphasizing my own words and making a mountain out of a molehill. My whole original point was about the rhetoric used by the author and showing how it preaches to the choir and causes anti-vacciners to double down against vaccines. But if you want to focus on the other aspects of what I wrote, all I can say is that the Danes take a more moderate approach to medicine, in general. They don’t shoot up your children with a whole bunch of vaccines all at once like they do in the states. They spread it out over longer time periods. My daughter will be turning 6 this year and she just finally got the rest if the shots that should would have gotten by the time she was 4 in America. Does it make a difference? Who knows. But the Danes use different studies and have a whole different rational over here. That includes the limited use of antibiotics. They don’t normally give children or adults flu vaccines in Denmark either. I was shocked to find out that I had to make a special request for a flu shot for my child. The mentality is very different in Denmark. I can’t speak for other countries. But when I question they doctors they cite different research that often contradicts the studies found in the U.S. This goes for dentistry as well. They don’t allow the use of silver filling in Denmark, for example. So the Danes err on the side of caution in all things regarding medicine. Which is a reasonable approach in my opinion.

  • StephanieJR

    I go on holiday for a couple of weeks and come back to a horde of idiot anti vaxxers descending upon us! Anyone care to catch me up on their latest bullshit, or is it just more of the same bleating ignorance?

    • Who?

      Sadly nothing original.

      Demanding double blind studies they wouldn’t participate in, all their feelings, complaining about tone, the herd isn’t real, etc.

      At least Peter Harris, the sexual harrasser turned Australian architecture expert, hasn’t appeared.

      Hope you had a great holiday!

      • StephanieJR

        Thought not. They need to get some new lines.

        And thank you, it was good!

    • rational thinker

      Same shit different day. 🙂

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Same old, same old!

  • McAllister Bryant

    This is what we call the MDeity complex. Now, I agree fully with your position about anti-vaxxers but damn…that line about condescending and overconfident is dripping in irony.

    Two things I have learned in life…Anti-vaxxers, much like climate science deniers are idiots. But I also learned that not everyone with a PhD or MD is quite as smart as their mother told them they were.

    Chill a bit. Look up “bedside manner”. Auto correct tried to make that “bedside manor” which would be a great name for a retirement home for Docs.

    • space_upstairs

      See, that’s the problem. Everyone has been told by their parents/teachers/someone that they are smart. Everyone is awash in information and convinced they can interpret and judge it well. Everyone is overconfident. Dr. Amy matching the tone of her most avid opponents may not win anyone over, but neither, in my experience, does modeling a more measured confidence. I tried the latter extensively here, to the point of admitting my cognitive biases and that my layperson opponent may even be smarter than my PhD self, to an alternative health fanatic a while back. How did it go? Mockery for my admitted biases, continued attempts to convert me to an alternative health worldview, and the use of my polite tone as a weaponized example to mock and dismiss others whose doctorates are actually in a health-related field (and thus are more authoritative than I for talking about health science – I only count myself as authoritative about science in general) for their lack of it.

      In short, the problem runs far deeper than any single blogger with a condescending tone, and cannot be remedied by polite and humble arguments. Something about today’s culture – the self-esteem movement running for over 40 years and thus fostering arrogance in at least 2 generations since childhood and 3 since young adulthood, social media Internet search and their dependence on niche marketing – does not encourage respect for authority or for one’s neighbor in general, and certainly not for one’s own limits.

    • Amazed

      Chilling up a bit and explaining that anti-vaxxers are good parents who will be won over if shown the wrong of their ways gently has proven to be ineffective.

      I’m not impressed with people coming here to condescend and use irony on Dr Amy. I’ve seen “chilled”, polite, respectful blogs discussing the same topics Dr Amy does. They barely get a comment. You seem to think yourself just as smart as your mother told you but you failed at the first test – check and see the results before bashing.

      Look for Ellen Mary, a regular commenter at Dr Amy’s blog. She’ll be happy to tell you how angry and disrespected she felt here thanks to her birth choices, I’m sure. Many of us have argued, lashed out, whatnot at her when she commented here. She was sure it was just Dr Amy and us being mean. But something of what was being said stuck to her mind and she went to have her baby at hospital. Had baby’s life saved because of this. Very happy with the result. And she isn’t the only one.

      Dr Amy’s tone works because anger makes it harder for people to just shrug what she writes off. They keep coming and for some, things stick and sometimes, a life is saved.

      As to anti-vaxxers, I don’t see what your suggestion is. Let’s see: is the problem that we have measles epidemics all over the world? Or that Dr Amy is “mean”? You seem to think it’s the second one and it’s such a sad thing to observe.

      There are lives at the stake and you come here to scold someone about their TONE?: For real?

  • Megan Elizabeth Hume

    This is well written, but still garbage. The average doctor is not a medical expert, and it is absolutely possible that a person who is not a medical professional can have as much or more understanding of vaccination or disease than any randomly selected doctor.
    I have had to explain not only what a vaccine contraindication was to my former doctor, but also how to pronounce the word.
    One study found that “Physicians knowledge of contraindications was low.”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1508536/

    • rational thinker

      Dr. Amy is not any average MD she is an OBGYN that is a specialist or expert in obstetrics an gynecology so try again. Also it sounds like your former doctor was being polite and trying not to laugh in your face if that even ever happened. Anyway even if she was just an MD she would still be considered an expert and they better be an expert that is what they went to college so long for!

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        She hasn’t practiced in years–I’m guessing she left the profession before or not long after the 1986 law that gave Big Pharma blanket immunity for vaccine injuries.As such, she is out of touch.

        • rational thinker

          It is rather funny that you don’t consider Dr. Tuteur a credible source because she is retired and not practicing. Then you people praise Andrew Wakefield who is a non practicing ex physician because his license was REVOKED and believe everything he lies about.

          • mabelcruet

            Wakefield was extremely lucky not to have been charged with criminal assault. He took blood samples from children (at a party, not even in a hospital setting) having obtained ‘consent’ from their parents under false pretenses. That constitutes assault-he harmed children for no purpose, because he falsified the results he got from those children.

        • Nikalix
    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      If you bothered to read the article you cited, you would know that the problem is that physicians tend to think that things that are not contraindications are and therefore miss opportunities to vaccinate.

    • JoAnna K.

      This is it, the dumbest comment I’ve read today!

      • Derullandei

        Agreed. She somehow managed to cram two errors into the very first sentence. And then it went downhill from there.

    • MaineJen

      “The average doctor is not a medical expert?”

      If you are kidding, that’s a good one.

      If you’re serious…no, you can’t possibly be serious.

  • Sally Ketchum Ladd

    Here’s what one of your medical colleagues — a pediatrician who actually practices medicine — has to say about the risks of vaccines.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LB-3xkeDAE&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

    • rational thinker

      Why do you people always resort to the supposed insult of actively practicing medicine? Nobody here is insulted by it probably not even Dr. Amy. She did not lose her license she is retired a big difference. Being retired does not mean you don’t keep all your medical knowledge or keep up to date with current studies. Come up with a better one next time please we hear it so often.

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        Why do you people fail to research facts before you comment? She left medicine years ago to raise her 4 children, so she hasn’t practiced in years. I doubt she even knows that vaccines being pushed pregnant women haven’t even been tested for this group.

        • rational thinker

          Wow

          • Who?

            Exactly. I didn’t realise there was a slideshow involved.

            Gamechanger!

            Eyeroll.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            This is what you pro-vax people do… ask for proof and when it’s handed to you on a silver platter you don’t even look at it.

          • space_upstairs

            Want to know why? The very names of the websites you link raise our red flags for “conspiracy theory and ideological bias against mainstream medicine” just as you would almost surely never read a link to the FDA or the CDC because those raise your “in bed with Big Pharma” red flags. Note that this blog is called The Skeptical OB, where “skeptical” is generally code for “does not believe in the supernatural and generally trusts the greater body of mainstream science even if it conflicts with certain political or religious viewpoints.” Many if not most of us sympathize with the political left here, but beg to differ when the cause of fighting corporate corruption requires dismissing offhand even the best and largest studies of mainstream science or, as in your case, denying that they can possibly be the best and largest studies because they conflict with our politics. We have what maybe we’ll grudgingly admit is an ideological bias in favor of mainstream science. Your ideological bias, which surely you would just call self-evident truth, is driven by your anti-big-business politics. We speak different languages. We are talking to brick walls. Your cause is lost on us commenters, and ours is lost on you.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            The slideshow to which I linked was produced by a PEDIATRICIAN, you ignoramus.

          • space_upstairs

            Not all pediatricians are considered equally authoritative by people with our ideological bias. In particular, no pediatrician trusted by someone who trusts Vax Truth and Age of Autism and the like is likely to be trusted by “skeptics.”

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Oh, but a “retired” ranting gynecologist is authoritative? What a joke. And again you have demonstrated how you trolls and pro-vaxxers operate: Demand proof and when the proof is presented, say it’s not — no matter what the source. I’m done with you.

          • Who?

            Promise?

            You’ve been flouncing for days now…

          • space_upstairs

            Better that way. Your cause is lost on us. And by the way, a retired OB is not my only source, but I bet all my other sources will raise your Big Pharma red flags, so I won’t bother to list any. I am currently listening to your pediatrician’s link and, well, understanding that there are dissenting voices in the science that stoke fears does not require agreeing with them as this doc seems to but most docs and researchers don’t. I will let people in the field decide when or if the extraordinary evidence comes in to prove the current risk-benefit analyses wrong. Even if that’s 50 years away.

          • Mike Stevens

            The one who is “ranting” is you.
            …Step back, take a deep breath and calm down, Sally.

          • Who?

            You keep saying you’re done.

            Just like you don’t know smallpox from leprosy, and you don’t know what ‘disinterested’ means, I don’t think you know what being done means.

          • momofone

            Dr. Tuteur is an OBSTETRICIAN/GYNECOLOGIST, but you don’t seem to give that much thought. I’ll leave the name-calling for you.

          • Logic Contradict

            What do those disciplines have to do with immunology and vaccines?

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You figured all this out of the result of your amazing “research”?

          Wow, you are amazing! You were able to read her bio at the top if page.

          I now to your impressive insight!

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            More than @ra@disqus_R1vlVWDrFW:disqus did in the way of research!

          • rational thinker

            Ummm.. I did not have to research why she retired I know she left to raise 4 children. Yes retired is the right word because she did not return to practice afterward. Being retired does not make her less credible.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Ummmm, I beg to differ. Being retired from practicing medicine for many years takes you away from seeing the effects of administering medications and vaccines on actual patients. She also is clearly completely disinterested in the existing abundance of science showing vaccines are neither safe nor effective, unlike the pediatrician who presented the slideshow for which I posted a link above.

          • momofone

            Sally, I’m curious about your qualifications for evaluating scientific studies. Would you be willing to share them?

          • fiftyfifty1

            “She also is clearly completely disinterested in the existing abundance of science…”

            Disinterested doesn’t mean what you think it does, LOL! It means “Not influenced by considerations of personal advantage.” Synonyms of disinterested are unbiased and objective.

            So you got that right, Dr. Tuteur is disinterested in the science of vaccines. She (unlike your slideshow pediatrician) is not looking to profit from anti-vax pseudoscience. She is objective and unbiased.

        • Mike Stevens

          Right… so Amy knows nothing about medical issues in pregnancy because she is a retired OBGYN???
          …And you, who probably flunked grade 8 biology, think you know more than she does???

    • Sally Ketchum Ladd

      So where are your comments on this fact-based slideshow by a pediatrician who respects his patients and their concerns, @AmyTuteur:disqus??

      • JoAnna K.

        Sorry friend the burden of proof is on YOU if you are going against all established medical science proven over and over again across the entire globe.

        • Sally Ketchum Ladd

          Really? Are you just parroting what you’ve been told or have you actually done any serious research? Here’s a link to more than a thousand studies linking all manner of illnesses and chronic conditions to vaccines
          https://www.learntherisk.org/studies

          • momofone

            I’m interested in reading your research. Could you point me to it?

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            What research, specifically? I have a library of hundreds of links on this topic.

          • momofone

            Oh, I thought you meant you conducted research–you know, since you were so focused on having “done serious research”! You meant you read a lot of things that you agreed with. Thanks for the clarification.

          • Logic Contradict

            How’s that any different from you lot agreeing with “scientific” blog sites?

          • momofone

            It isn’t about agreeing with scientific blog sites; it’s about being able to read and evaluate scientific studies with accuracy, which seems to be a challenge for many people.

          • Logic Contradict

            Yes, though I think a lot of science is lost of the provax crowd, because they take a bunch of MMR/autism studies and use that to conclude that vaccines (as a whole) are not associated to autism, for example. How that is a scientifically valid position to take based on a study where you are comparing a vaccinating population vs a vaccination population (the only difference being the MMR) is beyond me. Since all those scientific blog sites do this, I assume that they can’t properly evaluate studies either, lest they spend literally ALL their time attacking any study that questions the holy grail of vaccines and its safety.

          • Brian

            Good grief LC! Science shows vaccines don’t cause autism, (and not just MMR or thimerosal). I’ve explained this to you over and over and over again, but you’ve refused to learn.

            It’s not that everyone else fails to understand science…

          • swbarnes2

            Sigh. Here’s a hint. If we can’t find a link to your “research” on NCBI, everyone here laughs at you for being a stupid baby.

            Are you a stupid baby? Can you show that 10 of your wonderful links that both claim what you say they claim, and are grown-up research, and not baby drool?

            Just give us 10 links, and they should all start with http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov…like

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30120069

            Safety and immunogenicity of a pentavalent meningococcal conjugate vaccine containing serogroups A, C, Y, W, and X in healthy adults: a phase 1, single-centre, double-blind, randomised, controlled study.

            The adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted NmCV-5 vaccines were well tolerated and did not produce concerning adverse effects and resulted in immune responses that are predicted to confer protection against all five targeted serogroups of invasive meningococcal disease.

            Now, there is some garbage that has abstracts on NCBI, but if you want to be taken seriously start by sourcing everything you cite from there.

            I you can’t do this, we will understand it’s because you have nothing but garbage behind you.

          • Mike Stevens

            “…have you actually done any serious research?”
            Ahhh… the perennial whine from the antivaxers who claim to have done their “research”. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/980dddd330dc769e81c1c09bab616b753eab1f3fe777c18d80d7c2d31a09f1cb.jpg

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        What are my comments?

        1. You have a pathological, irrational fear of vaccines.
        2. That is allied to, and abetted by, a complete and thorough-going ignorance of immunology, statistics and epidemiology.
        3. You are astoundingly gullible.

        Pro-tip: citing a YouTube video is the scientific equivalent citing Highlights Magazine. It reflects childlike lack of knowledge, experience and maturity.

        • Sally Ketchum Ladd

          YouTube is simply a medium for the presentation of information. The slideshow was produced by a PEDIATRICIAN, which you would know if you had even bothered to look at it!

          • Mike Stevens

            A crank is a crank, irrespective of professional origins.

  • Vaccines are not tested for adverse effects of injected mercury,
    nor for injected aluminium in connection with brain damage and autoimmune conditions,
    nor for risk of infertility and brain damage due to injected polysorbate,
    nor for potential dangerous health consequences of injected foreign DNA,
    nor for carcinogenic properties,
    nor for long-term side effects,
    nor for dangerous interactions between ingredients – especially when several vaccines are administered within a short period of time,
    nor for ….
    – but vaccines are safe?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      There is no stupidity quite like the stupidity of anti-vaxxers. Thanks for dropping in to illustrate that!

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        You’re a disgrace to your former profession and a hateful human being.

        • rational thinker

          You are just demonstrating the point of the article.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Go away, troll. I’m tired of you.

          • rational thinker

            You do realize you are the guest here right?

        • sabelmouse

          i agree!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Says the ignorant freeloader trying desperately to boost her own ego at the expense of infants and immunocompromised children!

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Says the doctor who hasn’t practiced in years and hasn’t observed the destruction of health from vaccines pushed on patients by doctors who promised to “First, do no harm.”

            Sorry, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I throw myself or my children on the sword to ostensibly “save” infants and the immunocompromised with unproven and unavoidably unsafe vaccines. And where is the research showing how many are “saved” by fake herd immunity anyway?

            This is still a free country, and we are all entitled to informed consent for medical treatment. God help us if Big Pharma triumphs and we are all forced to be injected with whatever toxins our corrupt government decides are “safe.”

            And as far as ego goes, your blog is one giant ego-boost for yourself.

          • rational thinker

            Oh so you are a conspiracy theorist too then?

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Is gyphsphate poisoning of our food a conspiracy theory against Monsanto? Were lung cancer deaths from smoking a conspiracy theory against Big Tobacco in the ’50s and early ’60s? Was the poisoning of the water supply in Detroit a conspiracy theory against the local government? Is climate change a conspiracy theory against Big Oil? People who are outraged by such greed and corruption in other industries turn a blind eye to Big Pharma, which is corrupt to the core and has bought and paid for the medical industry, (including the CDC), the mainstream media and the government in this and other countries.

            Wake up, sheeples! You are being poisoned from every direction!

          • space_upstairs

            There are people – including right-leaning anti-vaxers who distrust government more than corporations – who do think climate change is a conspiracy theory against Big Oil. They would call you a sheep for actually thinking Big Oil is bad, and surely the more nerdy among them will claim science on their side. As for the ills of the drug industry, I would look for those more in stuff like Viagra and pain medicines (think Vioxx, addictive opioids) than in vaccines. I am not blind to bad practices in Big Pharma or Big Ag, I just think they are not *entirely* ill-willed and that their primary ills are not in vaccines or genetic engineering but in rushed-to-market pleasure and pain drugs and monopolistic tendencies, respectively. Big businesses, after all, can actually succeed with quality products and not just with cartoon villainry.

          • Nikalix

            “Wake up, sheeples!”

            And there we have it.

          • mabelcruet

            Chem trails. 7 foot tall lizard people. Elvis is still alive, and Beyonce is a clone.

    • You see how this “doctor” responds to you? Wow I’m glad she isn’t practicing anymore

      • MaineJen

        Where are you all coming from?? Shoo! Shoo!

        • rational thinker

          I know they are worse than fucking seagulls.

    • rational thinker

      Did you know that there is more mercury in one can of tuna than one vaccine. Go pretend to be “educated” somewhere else.

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        Research ingestion vs injection, troll

        • rational thinker

          “research” “troll” is that the best you can come up with?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      …Could you present some evidence of this? Any evidence?

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        If you’re so interested, do your own research. You can start at nvic.org

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          So, that would be a “No, I have no evidence to present, just posturing” then. Thanks.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            No, that would be a “I can’t sum up 23 years of research in a comment on a blog.” I have literally dozens of links to science showing vaccines are not proven safe nor effective. If you are truly interested in knowing more about why, I am more than happy to share links. Just not interested in wasting my time debating with trolls and close-minded people.

          • rational thinker

            Then post the links.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            I’ve posted plenty of links in multiple threads here. Now go do your homework, troll.

          • rational thinker

            Go grow a brain moron.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            No one said you have to produce all the evidence. Just any evidence. Come on, if you really have that much data surely you could post just one little source or argument. And yet you haven’t. Almost as though…

            And no, I’m not interested in your links. I want your analysis of the data. Let’s make this easy: Pick one adverse event and one vaccine. What is the evidence that the vaccine causes this AE? Is the risk of this AE worse than the risk of the infection the vaccine prevents? In short, give a brief risk/benefit analysis. It’s very, very easy and if you can’t do it, it’s because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Look at the pediatrician’s slideshow I posted above. He cites multiple clinical studies.

            Why don’t you prove vaccines are safe and effective? I want your analysis of the data. Let’s make this easy: Pick one adverse event and one vaccine. What is the evidence that the vaccine doesn’t cause this AE? Is the risk of this AE worse than the risk of the infection the vaccine prevents? In short, give a brief risk/benefit analysis. It’s very, very easy and if you can’t do it, it’s because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            As I said before, I’d like to see your interpretation of the data. Pick a vaccine and a risk that makes you consider that vaccine unacceptable. Evaluate the evidence and provide your conclusions. A link is pretty much meaningless without at least some hint of what in the link you find significant.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            I don’t need a homework assignment from a troll; that exercise is meaningless (as you know) because THERE ARE NO VALID SCIENTIFIC STUDIES ON VACCINE SAFETY & EFFICACY BASED ON THE CURRENT CDC RECOMMENDED SCHEDULE!

            As I said before, I’d like to see your interpretation of the data. Pick a vaccine and the double-blind-placebo-controlled studies that make you consider that vaccine to be safe and effective. Evaluate the evidence and provide your conclusions.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            YOU ARE STILL A GULLIBLE FOOL! It must be true because I used all caps.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            I know the truth is that vaccines are injuring and killing people, including infants, just as I know the sun will rise tomorrow from the East. You are an obnoxious, unscrupulous, has-been physician who makes a living by insulting people for their personal choices about what they will permit to be injected into their and their children’s bodies. All this without so much as a shred of science to back up your claims about vaccine safety & efficacy. Maybe that’s why Science Based Medicine dumped you. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/dr-tuteur-has-decided-to-leave-science-based-medicine/

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Still an ignorant, gullible fool! Thanks for the example of how you do “research.” SBM didn’t dump me; I dumped them. There was nothing wrong with what I wrote for them. It’s still on all the site nearly a DECADE later.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            It was clear from that post that you two didn’t get along. I suspect you were given an ultimatum to shape up or ship out, or permitted to quit to save face.

            We also don’t know what posts of yours they may have kept (and edited) and what they trashed.

            I am thankful I never ran into a lunatic like you in a medical setting. You did the world a favor by “retiring.”

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In other words, you just make things up to suit your own biases.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Wrong again, doctor do little. I make inferences based on the information I have.You, on the other hand, simply parrot Big Pharma propaganda aimed at fear-mongering. I wonder how much you’re getting in stipends from the Pharma mafia to spread their lies.T hat post on Science-Based Medicine’s sure was damning; it’s pretty apparent they would no longer tolerate your unscientific rants.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But basing conclusions on the information you have is nonsensical when the information you have isn’t even a fraction of the information available. Ignorant people make faulty inferences. Thanks for demonstrating that!

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Did I say I came to a conclusion? Your comprehension skills need work. I said I inferred; that does not necessarily imply a conclusion. Based on the information I have, I am postulating that you are a schuyster.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Look up the definition for inference. Every dictionary that I checked includes the word “conclusion” in the definition. But, hey, if you’re going to make things up, I suppose you might as well make up definitions, too.

            Thanks so much for dropping by! Some readers might think that this piece exaggerated the ignorance, gullibility and lack of self awareness of vaxophobes, but you made it clear that I wasn’t exaggerating at all!!

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            There are several interpretations of the — as there are for many words in the English language — one being “the process of deriving the strict logical consequences of assumed premises.”

            Now you’re in my area of expertise… and unlike you, I am actually active in my field. Peace, out.

          • Ricardo Alviano

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • Mike Stevens

            “Now you’re in my area of expertise.”
            What would that be…how to lie?
            (I disagree anyway, you are pretty hopeless at that.)

            PS: your quoted definition of “inference” supports Amy’s interpretation, not yours.

          • momofone

            Now it’s all so clear.

          • rational thinker

            “Shame on you for your heinous contribution to the murder and injury of countless babies and others.” No, that would be Andrew Wakefield

          • fiftyfifty1

            “just as I know the sun will rise tomorrow from the East.”

            So you reject Copernicus too?

          • space_upstairs

            Even as an astronomer I would find “the Earth will spin eastward on its axis until its shadow no longer blocks our view of the Sun tomorrow” a bit cumbersome. And sadly, and perhaps not surprisingly, there really are people who reject Copernicus (geocentric Flat Earthers). It seems to be a new fad on the Internet. I tend to think they just do it for attention and sport, to show that they can out-debate us astronomers. They don’t seem to want to influence public policy by, say, cancelling Mars missions.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            1) It is genuinely fascinating to me how many of Dr. Amy’s commenters have such varied, educated backgrounds. I wonder where else one could essentially walk into a person’s living room and have discussions with such people? Yet another reason I love the commenters here. 🙂
            2) I wish I could say I didn’t know this, but a not-inconsiderable number of the geocentric flat earthers are found in the particularly wacky branch of Catholicism in which I grew up (cue standard disclaimer of “These were NOT your average bunch of Catholics”). You see, a Pope once upon a time said that Copernicus was wrong. Ergo, he was wrong, and if you agree with the scientific consensus that, well, the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa, you’re a eeevil heretic and therefore Not To Be Believed. Sigh.
            (The one bright side to growing up with the crazy people I mention is that I could dine out on those stories for years…)

          • space_upstairs

            Hmmm…I had read that Flat Earthers often don’t have other weird beliefs, but for those who do, it makes sense that fundamentalist Catholicism would be one.

            By the way, are any of those fundamentalist Catholics monks or nuns, or would they prefer to be? From what I understand, Catholics in Copernicus’s time thought it better to not have sex at all than to make lots of Catholic babies. Sex in marriage without birth control was a mere concession to human frailty. If they do not see family life as a mere second best to monasticism or (for eligible males) joining the clergy, they are more akin to today’s fundamentalist evangelical Protestants or Jews than to yesterday’s Catholics at least on that issue

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            In theory, this particular bunch tends to subscribe to the notion that religious life is far preferable to married life. However, they run into a bit of a problem there in that most monasteries, seminaries, and religious orders are, well, sane, and tend to do a fair bit of screening to try to weed out those who aren’t pre-admission. (Off the top of my head, for example, the Dominicans of St. Cecelia in Nashville are a very conservative order, but they are also a *very* well-educated group of nuns–like, a disproportionate number of them have advanced degrees in education/science/et all, and wouldn’t tolerate this sort of nonsense gladly.)

          • space_upstairs

            Too “religious” to be monastics…that’s a hoot. I have heard, however, of monastic orders (or prominent members thereof) in Catholicism being more progressive than the Pope, and thus more in line with lay Catholics, on matters such as condoms. Also, the Vatican does have an observatory and Catholic universities do have astrophysicists, so clearly your average monk, nun, or cleric would not reject Galileo, Kepler, and Copernicus.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Oh, according to them, even the vast majority of the conservative orders, never mind the more liberal ones, are heretics and whatnot and to be shunned. Sigh.
            I should state once more that the people I am describing make up a ridiculously tiny fraction–like, I would estimate well, well under 1%–of Catholics. They’re just very vocally nutty!

          • Ricardo Alviano

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

          • JGC

            “I know the truth is that vaccines are injuring and killing people, including infants, just as I know the sun will rise tomorrow from the East.”

            From what evidence have you determined this represents the truth? More critically, have you any evidence the risk of being injured of killed associated with routine childhood vaccination equals or exceeds the risk of being injured or killed conferred by remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases the vaccines on the schedule protect against?

            According to the World Health Organization, measles alone killed 139,000 people worldwide in 2010. Do you have any evidence demonstrating measles vaccines killed 139,000 people or more worldwide in the same year? In ANY year since the vaccines were introduced?

            Do you even understand the concept of ‘relative risk’?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Comparing vaccine injury to the sun rising? That’s a hoot.

            Let’s see… for the sun rising, we can tell where and when to the minute/degree/second for every day for the next million years. For vaccine injuries, we get stories of “my baby got vaccinated and BOOM, 6 months later, stopped talking!”

            Yeah, that’s really comparable….

          • MaineJen

            We’re done, guys. She has “literally dozens of links.”

            Clearly, that negates my entire career in immunology, in which I learned not only that vaccines work, but the intricate and complicated science explaining HOW they work. Our immune systems are adaptive and flexible and just all around amazing, and more complex than you can possibly imagine.

            But clearly, you are possessed of superior knowledge and have much to teach me. By all means, pass me one of your “links.”

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Your education was compromised by Big Pharma’s pervasive influence on the medical industry. You clearly weren’t taught about the many risks of vaccines.
            https://www.collective-evolution.com/2018/09/02/renowned-doctor-slams-medical-school-says-we-have-an-epidemic-of-misinformed-doctors/?fbclid=IwAR0vVrJoNqiExyQpAzBB-KJkqg0ZXxhgMpR9dy1DNpdg0zPztExHeEUTrnI

          • MaineJen

            “Founded by Joe Martino 2009, CE has grown to become one of the world’s most popular conscious media outlets that provides readers and viewers an opportunity to expand their consciousness, unlock their potential and reshape their everyday way of being.

            CE’s unique formula merges consciousness and spirituality with all aspects of life and events we experience on a regular basis.”

            Sounds like a totally reliable source! I’m convinced.

          • rational thinker

            OMG is she serious?

      • Deadpool
    • Sally Ketchum Ladd

      No, they are not. Unfortunately the masses have been hypnotized into believing vaccines have saved us all. Really? Look at the health of our kids now vs. 30 years ago! I thank god I learned the truth before I injected my kids with Big Pharma’s lethal cocktail of toxins & foreign DNA.

      • MaineJen

        *Inspects own children and all of their classmates, observes that they are not suffering from measles, polio, diphtheria, or indeed even chicken pox*

        *Remembers having chicken pox herself 30 years ago, but not measles, polio or diphtheria*

        *Visits graveyard from 100 years ago; young children dead of measles, diphtheria etc*

        • Sally Ketchum Ladd

          I am now 62 and had the measles at age 12 as well as chicken pox at age 7, and survived to enjoy lifetime immunity from measles and a bolstered immune system. And FACT: All childhood diseases had dramatically declined in the U.S. prior to the widespread use of vaccines due to improvements in our standard of living. Why do you think diseases like roseola disappeared, even though there is no vaccine for this disease?? If you did any research outside your Big Pharma bubble you would know this.

          • MaineJen

            Our patients don’t know anything about a big pharma bubble. And yet, their immune systems continue to respond to vaccination, producing antibodies and protecting them from disease. They are required to be fully vaccinated before they undergo transplant, necessitating immunosuppression, which prevents their bodies from producing new antibodies. That’s why it’s crucial that they be protected from exposure to disease.

            It’s almost like…science works, whether you believe in it or not.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            There is no valid science on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. If it doesn’t exist, it can’t “work.” Your personal observations and interpretations don’t constitute “science.”

          • MaineJen

            *Looks around for people dying of smallpox*

          • MaineJen

            BTW, you may be interested in this article, about how measles infection can weaken your immune system for years.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908915/

            “As viral RNA persists, there is a shift to a T-helper 2 CD4+ T-cell response that likely promotes B-cell maturation and durable antibody responses but may suppress macrophage activation and T-helper 1 responses to new infections…MV-infected dendritic cells are unable to stimulate a mixed lymphocyte reaction and can induce lymphocyte unresponsiveness through expression of MV glycoproteins.”

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            You may be interested in this compendium of research regarding the benefits of acquiring the wild measles virus: http://www.greenmedinfo.com/keyword/health-benefits-measles-infection

          • MaineJen

            I’m “interested” that you think GreenMedInfo is a reliable source of information. The most recent article cited on that page is from 2013 and the abstract doesn’t mention measles.

            **My mistake, it does mention an inverse association with history of measles infection. Which doesn’t mean anything.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Typical pro-vaxxer response intended to deflect attention away from the facts. What the hell difference does it make who curates the links if the research is valid? There are a number of links to articles on measles benefits, two of them from 2009 and 2013, respectively. You have something more current that refutes this research??? If not then admit the benefits exist.

            I’m not interested in playing these games. I provided valid, credible information. If you don’t want to engage in a serious debate then don’t waste my time.

          • MaineJen

            I’m not playing games. I read the whole article. The lower rate of measles infection in the affected Sudanese children is an interesting footnote, and is listed among a score of other factors. The authors of the paper come to no definite conclusion as to what is causing the Nodding Syndrome, but lack of measles infection doesn’t even merit a “need for further study” in their conclusions.

            That you could make it through that whole, heartbreaking article, and your only takeaway is “It’s the vaccines!!11”, I really don’t know what to tell you.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            You mention one link. Oy. I guess I have to spoon-feed you the research. I’ve spent enough time educating you. If this doesn’t satisfy you then clearly you have no interest in learning the truth:

            Studies showing the reduction of cancer risk, heart disease and Parkinson’s for those who contract measles:

            Wild Measles: Glaser et al also found that lymph cancer is significantly more likely in adults who were not NATURALLY infected with measles, mumps or rubella in childhood [In J Cancer 2005; 115(4): 599-605].
            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijc.20787/full
            Wild Mumps: Researchers investigated whether mumps might engender immunity to ovarian cancer through antibodies against the cancer-associated antigen MUC1 abnormally expressed in the inflamed parotid gland. Mumps reduced the risk of ovarian cancer.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951028/
            Wild Measles: Adults are significantly protected against non-breast cancers — genital, prostate, gastrointestinal, skin, lung, ear-nose-throat, and others — if they contracted measles earlier in life. [Med Hypotheses 1998; 51(4): 315-20].
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9824838/
            Measles infection [naturally] decreases the risk of Parkinson’s.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/4061437/
            Wild Measles: Montella et al found that contracting measles in childhood reduces the risk of developing lymphatic cancer in adulthood [Leuk Res 2006; 30(8): 917-22].
            http://www.lrjournal.com/article/S0145-2126(05)00466-2/abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16406019/
            Wild Measles: Alexander et al found that infection with measles during childhood is significantly protective — it cuts the risk in half — against developing Hodgkin’s disease (OR = 0.53) [Br J Cancer 2000; 82(5): 1117-21].
            http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v82/n5/full/6691049a.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10737396/
            Measles to the Rescue: A Review of Oncolytic Measles Virus.
            MV Clinical trials are producing encouraging preliminary results in ovarian cancer, myeloma and cutaneous non-Hodgkin lymphoma, and the outcome of currently open trials in glioblastoma multiforme, mesothelioma and squamous cell carcinoma are eagerly anticipated.
            Aref S, et al. Viruses. 2016.
            http://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/8/10/294 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5086626/
            Wild measles and mumps protect against heart problems. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26122188

          • Mike Stevens

            Tell me, if measles virus has these benefits, then live vaccine virus would do the same.
            All your studies looked at measles versus no measles.
            Your claims can’t be made for the post vaccine era. Where are the studies comparing these outcomes for a measles-infected group versus a vaccinated group?

          • Zornorph

            Since having measles is so beneficial to health, may I assume you have ensured that your children contracted it so they can reap the ‘benefits’?

          • Daleth

            Why do you think diseases like roseola disappeared, even though there is no vaccine for this disease??

            Uh, roseola didn’t disappear:

            “Roseola is so common that most children have been infected with roseola by the time they enter kindergarten.” https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/roseola/symptoms-causes/syc-20377283

          • Azuran

            wait wait wait wait wait…..You think ROSEOLA has disapeared? Seriously?
            Virtually EVERYONE gets roseola as children. Serological studies shows and almost 100% positivity in kids.
            Sounds like someone is really lacking in education here.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, the stupid antivax propaganda tropes and lies keep getting rolled out.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Again, didn’t say it disappeared; I said it declined without the help of vaccines due to improved living standards.

          • MaineJen

            “Why do you think diseases like roseola disappeared, even though there is no vaccine for this disease?? ”

            Sound familiar?

          • Mike Stevens

            Roseola is a common viral infection in kids.
            It has not “disappeared”.
            You may be thinking of scarlet fever – a disease much beloved by antivaxers everywhere since they think they can claim “it went away on its own and there is no vaccine for it!”
            However there are 2 things wrong with that claim. Firstly, it didn’t go away on it’s own. It is a complication of Strep throat, which itself has declined somewhat because of widespread antibiotic use.
            And scarlet fever has not gone away at all; in fact it has made something of a comeback (15,000 cases in the UK in 2016, my son being one of them).

            “FACT: All childhood diseases had dramatically declined in the U.S. prior to the widespread use of vaccines due to improvements in our standard of living.”
            So let’s get this straight… you claim there was no measles, and no chickenpox prevaccine because of improved standards of living?
            But prevaccine, everyone got these.
            FACT. Even you got it. So did your family live in abject squalor? (Pray tell…)

          • MaineJen

            My daughter was hospitalized at age 4 for scarlet fever complicated by staph infection (scalded skin syndrome). Yeah, it still happens.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Just not nearly as often as it did before our standard of living improved in the U.S.
            https://www.learntherisk.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/diseases-declined-graph-post-card-web-thumb.png

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Never said the aforementioned diseases disappeared; I said they dramatically declined before vaccines were introduced. https://www.learntherisk.org/diseases/?fbclid=IwAR1IUSv9RK2IMumjo8ugM_hSsmAqxu-hldf2FGEMzhfKZhI-K2w2rKE-duM

          • Mike Stevens

            OK then
            Please show me that measles, chickenpox, mumps and rubella had “dramatically declined” prevaccine.
            You won’t be able to… they were near-universal. Their prevalence was unaffected by living standards or sanitation or nutrition.
            Everyone got them, even you did, as you admit.

            If I had a dollar for every antivaxer who claimed these diseases were mild and how everyone got hem and everyone “survived” getting them in the prevaccine era, I’d be typing this from my yacht in the Bahamas, not in a dingy hospital back office having completed a long and trying clinic list.

            PS: Do you want to tell me about “Roseola” too, and how that has “dramatically declined”? Feel free…

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Yes, many got them — but the vast majority survived unscathed, myself included, and gained lifetime health benefits with a bolstered immune system. Today we have traded questionable “protection” for chronic illness — a boon for Big Pharma!

            Did you bother to read the article I linked to??? Measles was included in the chart demonstrating this decline. I don’t have time to do your homework for you and dig up every little factoid you demand. Do your own research; the stats are readily available for all those diseases.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sally, you made a patently ridiculous claim (that all infections had dramatically declined prior to introduction of vaccination).
            You probably did that because it seemed a neat little “sound bite” to throw out while promoting your untenable antivaccine position.

            But you were found out, and shown to be quite wrong in your claim.
            Now there are only 2 explanations for why you tried to mislead people…
            1. You were ignorant of the facts, and mistakenly thought you were telling the truth, or
            2. You were deliberately lying, knowing all the time that what you said was false.

            Of these two options, if I were you I’d prefer to have fallen back on #1. Being ignorant of something is not an awful situation – I’m ignorant about many things, like 1950s pop music, medieval history, US presidents etc. It can be corrected.
            But you seem to have plumped for option #2. Not a good look.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Uh, HELLO! Look at the link I posted to support my statements. Here it is again. Read it and weep:
            https://www.learntherisk.org/diseases/?fbclid=IwAR1IUSv9RK2IMumjo8ugM_hSsmAqxu-hldf2FGEMzhfKZhI-K2w2rKE-duM

          • Mike Stevens

            Well HELLO! yourself….
            …Yet another lying antivaxer who confuses mortality with incidence.

            If I had a $10 for each time you folk deliberately did that, I’d be a millionaire.

          • space_upstairs

            What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…unless it’s “unnatural” and mass-marketed by big business, apparently, then it’s a probable cause of every weakness you can think to whine about.

          • Nikalix

            The link support your statement only by comparing MORTALITY rates for diseases that it want to falsely claim disappear without a vaccine to MORBIDITY rates for diseases it want to show declined on their own.

            Why do you think the article you link to does something so stupid ? Do you really think that it’s somehow an honest mistake ?

            Do you start to see your problem ? When you are using logically flawed and outright dishonest sources to back up your claims then it’s probably time to rethink your position.

          • JGC

            “Today we have traded questionable “protection” for chronic illness — a boon for Big Pharma!”

            Sally, your evidence demonstrating that routine childhood vaccination is causally associated with chronic illness would be–well,, what exactly? Be specific.

            I mean you do actually have some–right?

          • Sixteenfire

            Sally your survivors bias is showing because your forgetting about how measles ravages immune systems and can cause dangerous immunosuppression for up to 3 years post infection. Or about subacute sclerosing panencephalitis which is caused by the measles infection and can kill people 10 years after their initial infection. I have taken care of adults who were otherwise healthy tell they got measles and required very invasive cardiac support to survive. Sally you having had measles does not make you an expert it does not increase your knowledge of the disease if anything because you lucked out it makes your experience dangerous to others.

          • Mike Stevens

            Here is one disease you claim had “dramatically declined” prevaccine….
            Oops! …maybe not. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4055a9177397f0f854b30b142c2bfc67ef7edca9568e87acebca4329f2d68840.jpg

          • demodocus

            Scarlet fever has not gone away. And I’ll have words with anyone who implies that my childhood home’s sanitation wasn’t up to snuff. Middletown, Connecticut in 1982 wasn’t exactly London, England in 1544

          • JGC

            “I am now 62 and had the measles at age 12 as well as chicken pox at age 7, and survived to enjoy lifetime immunity from measles and a bolstered immune system”

            Good for you–you were lucky. My maternal uncle would have been have enjoyed lifelong immunity if he had also survived, rather than dying as a child as the result of contracting measles.

            Fortunately my children will enjoy that same immunity without first having been placed at risk of death thanks to the development of safe and effective measles vaccines.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Unfortunate, but had your uncle been born post-50s he likely would have survived. Or maybe he was otherwise immune-compromised. And no, your children will not enjoy the same immunity. Vaccine “immunity” is not lifelong, not nearly as powerful (if at all), and you do not gain the other health benefits conferred by contracting the wild viruses.

          • MaineJen

            DO tell me more about immunity. I’m fascinated.

            Do you know the difference between a monocyte, a T cell, and a plasma cell? Do you know which one produces antibodies?

            Do you care? Or do you just want to tell someone else that their family member was likely immunocompromised and that’s why they died?

          • Logic Contradict

            Monocytes can differentiate into dendritic cells and macrophages. They sample by the environment, especially during times of inflammatory responses, to determine the DAMPs causing it. They process the pathogens and break it down into antigens, transport themselves to the lymph nodes to perform antigen presentation, activating and maturing lymphocytes (B/T cells).

            T cells can be helper T cells or killer T cells, which aid in cell-mediated immunity. For example, killer T cells can detect infected cells and destroy them (something antibodies do not typically do).

            B cells are your “plasma” cells. Once they are matured/activated, they can become memory B cells and they can produce antibodies.

            It’s an oversimplification, this is a lot more complex a topic and I’m pretty sure your questions were rhetorical in nature anyways.

          • Mike Stevens

            ”Unfortunate, but had your uncle been born post-50s he likely would have survived.”

            So, you accept that survival would relate to medical advances? That contradicts what you were saying earlier.

          • JGC

            “Unfortunate, but had your uncle been born post-50s he likely would have survived”

            If he been born long enough post-50’s that he was able to be vaccinated against measles sure. Otherwise he’d have been playing the same game of chance as those born after 1950 but prior to vaccination–at the time he died the mortality rate wasn’t significantly different than it is today (2.1 deaths per 1000 infections rather than 1 death per 1000 infections).

          • Eater of Worlds

            Did you know that childhood deaths from infectious diseases went way down when measles vaccine was introduced? Even deaths from diarrhea and pneumonia dropped by half.

            Wanna know why?

            Because having measles makes you much more likely to get sick from anything else. By vaccinating, we saved millions of kids from worse cases of everything else.

            That’s pretty awesome, even if you have to get another shot 30 years later.

            I’d rather have another shot from something that can save me from dying from something else floating around in the air.

            https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Why do you think diseases like roseola disappeared, even though there is no vaccine for this disease?”

            Roseola disappeared? What can you possibly be talking about? I am a practicing physician and see cases on a regular basis. It is extremely common. Luckily, unlike measles, it is extremely unlikely to lead to complications. I mean there are very rare case reports of, for example, children immunocompromised by chemotherapy developing roseola encephalitis, but healthy children do not. This is unlike measles, where even totally healthy children can die of measles pneumonia or contract measles encephalitis and sustain permanent brain damage.

    • sabelmouse

      true, but apparently this is negated by you saying it 😉

  • Lenore Daguanno

    Any ‘doctor’ who says science is settled refusing to acknowledge new peer reviewed published research, of which there is plenty on this subject now, is NOT worthy of her medical license. She knows full well vaccines have not been safety tested in clinical placebo trials yet CDC recommends them to everyone including PREGNANT MOTHERS. They were deemed ‘unavoidably unsafe’ by Supreme Court in 2011. The vaccine inserts list death,disease, among others problems as possible side effects. FACTS.

    • space_upstairs

      Unavoidable because we have to choose between the risks of vaccines and those of communicable diseases running rampant. As for not accepting new research: I am an astrohysicist. I acknowledge new research sayng dark matter and dark energy may not exist. But I do not “accept” it until this research becomes more numerous and/or more robust than that which says that 96% of the substance of the cosmos is a mystery. Same with doctors and research on vaccines.

      • Sally Ketchum Ladd

        In your research you might want to learn to spell “astrophysicist.” And what research have you done on vaccines?

        • space_upstairs

          Sorry, my spelling tends to be crap typing on a phone (and frankly, typing in general…proofreading my papers is a long process). I just fixed it. And though I don’t know vaccines as a field, I know how research works better than a layperson, I dare say, even if I make more typos than laypeople do. When certain research is not widely accepted or just not done, rarely is it a matter of cognitive bias alone. The risk of chronic disease from vaccine ingredients, for instance, is likely not researched in part due to lack of plausibility given the dose of these ingredients per set of vaccines.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            What utter nonsense. There is absolutely no justification for injecting 72 doses of 16 vaccines into children between birth and age 18 without double-blind, placebo-controlled studies demonstrating this is safe.

          • space_upstairs

            What has been demonstrated is that vaccines usually drastically reduce the risk of infectious disease. As for raising the risk of chronic disease, 72 shots sounds like a lot, but how does that total compare to exposures to similar substances in food, water, air, etc.? Over the course of a lifetime, almost surely far less. Also, a lack of placebo control can be explained in part by ethics: to deny well-proven protection against infectious illness in the name of seeking a vague hypothetical risk of chronic illness may be considered unethical. One other thing: certain vaccines with strong side effects are typically only given to individuals with high risk of germ exposure. Think yellow fever, smallpox, rabies. These are not given to everyone, only to military personnel and the like or people bitten by animals (and their cats and dogs that bite and are bitten by other animals often).

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Demonstrated how?? You cannot demonstrate vaccines are safe and effective without double-blind, placebo-controlled studies of the current CDC recommended schedule. As you pro-vaxxers love to say: correlation does not equal causation.

          • space_upstairs

            Well, the correlation between vaccines and a drop in infectious disease rates is very strong, and can be combined with theoretical plausibility of mechanism to convince most people, even in the field, of probable causation. Also, I can talk anecdotal evidence, a favorite among alternative health promoters: I got lots of vaccines, including Tdap and flu boosters while pregnant, and my daughter and I are fine…unless you wish to blame my stalled labor resulting in an elective C-section and whatever it is that will kill us someday on vaccines. I think there are too many good candidates for other causes of both: genetics for big babies plus my small hips for the C-section, universal human genetics and the usual lifestyle factors acknowledged by mainstream doctors for the future chronic diseases. But it sure would be nice if one simple, small consumer choice like avoiding mainstream medicine (including but not limited to vaccines) and/or food could prevent all that, right? I can understand why you want to believe vaccines cause chronic illness and insist that only an expensive rehash of basic science could just maybe prove you wrong. Similarly, we have just as good reasons (most of us would say better ones, but without those studies you demand I cannot convince you of that) to believe that vaccines are mostly worth any chronic disease risk for the promise of not catching every nasty bug that used to plague our grandparents’ generation (who, by the way, still died/are dying of chronic disease despite so many fewer shots).

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd
          • CJ

            So, I reviewed your first link from vactruth, and you are correct, all of the studies they referenced are listed at the end of the article. The oldest study is from 1926, the newest from 2011. Of the 25 references, 21 are older than 1980; there is one from 1990, one from 2006, and two from 2011.

            Your references are wildly out of date. Science and medicine have advanced significantly since the 1980s, let alone the 1920s, and most of the sources are from pre-1960.

            As for the two articles from 2011, they’re from the vactruth website, they’re not even peer reviewed evidence. You claim to be informed and are attempting to use science to justify your irrational fear of vaccinations, but you can’t even grasp the science or research methods that are used. If you want to use science, then use it; provide recent (not more than 10 years old) peer-reviewed evidence from reputable journals that show vaccines are dangerous. You want to “science”? Then do it. Until then, just call me a troll and be on your way. You’re making a fool of yourself.

          • Deadpool
          • MaineJen

            HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA OMG

          • Mike Stevens

            Why do you think listening to a video of an antivaccine propagandist journo is “educating” oneself?

          • rational thinker

            POLIO

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd
          • rational thinker

            Okay these links are not reliable as a source of information. At this point you are embarrassing yourself BADLY. If you do think these sites are scientific then you have demonstrated you have no knowledge of science. You may get away with this on other blogs but you wont here. Do you have any idea how many real doctors and scientists are on this comment section?

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            And of course that’s EXACTLY the response I expected from a troll. There are plenty of clinical studies included in my links or cited within articles linked to. But of course you didn’t really even look for those.

          • rational thinker

            “Troll” is the response I expected even though the troll in this situation is you. You are the one parachuting in here to “educate” us with your beliefs and your ignorance.

          • Ricardo Alviano

            TROLL!!!!!

          • MaineJen

            When’s the last time you saw someone die of smallpox?

          • Who?

            Would you agree to your or your child participating in such a study, aware that might mean that you or the child would receive all the vaccines?

            No?

            Then stop calling for it.

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            Nope! Because I know that vaccines would harm my kids in one way or another. However, there are plenty of people (sheeples) who would be willing — just as there are for many other clinical studies.

            Furthermore, if you want to try to prove the current CDC-recommended vaccine schedule is safe based on scientific data, you cannot start with the presumption that it’s safe! This defies all logic and scientific protocol. There is also the opportunity to analyze epidemiological data to ascertain the overall health of vaxxed vs. non-vaxxed.

          • Who?

            So who would you suggest should be the participants in this trial you call for? I think it’s a ridiculous idea, and wouldn’t want to participate because I wouldn’t want to risk missing out on vaccines.

            If you think such a trial is a good idea, who should be in it?

          • Sally Ketchum Ladd

            LOL. You are clearly a troll. Buh-bye!

          • Who?

            Well you were easy to dispose of.

            Don’t forget to tell your friends!

          • rational thinker

            See classic, she could not answer your question so she resorted to name calling.

          • MaineJen

            *Makes a first-ever visit to a blog*

            *Calls regular commenters trolls*

          • Box of Salt

            Double blind for 18 years? Best of luck with that, Sally Ketchum Ladd.

            P.S. You need to subtract out IPV from your list of 16. Let us know if you don’t understand why.

          • JGC

            All new vaccines are subject to such testing. I’m sure you understand why it would be completely unethical to test new vaccines developed to replace existing vaccines against placebo rather than the version of the vaccine currently in use.

            That said, can you provide to any evidence demonstrating that the risks associated with vaccinating according to the CDC”s recommended childhood schedule–however many there are and whatever the time period over which they are given–are equal to or greater than the risk associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the diseases they protect against?

        • sabelmouse

          what they mean id ”pharma” approved.

        • momofone

          I will ask you the same thing. What research have you done–as in conducted–on vaccines, and where could we read your studies?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      There are few people more ignorant than lay people who think they understand vaccine research. Thanks for dropping in to demonstrate it!

    • rational thinker

      So does a box of Slim fast or Atkins food products. I love the “insert” argument but please get a new one.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Okay, name a vaccine that has a particularly ominous package insert and let’s talk about it.

  • Lenore Daguanno

    She forgot the part where Dr. Semmelweis was horrendously ridiculed and shunned. His ideas completely discarded by DOCTORS who thought they knew everything. He was never vindicated until after he died. He was tried and convicted by same shameful deep level of arrogance and condescending attitude as this doctor, who seems to know everything.

    • space_upstairs

      As I explained to another below: germ theory was new in Semmelweis’s day and so he could not be vindicated until decades of extraordinary evidence proved the germ theory of communicable disease correct, and specifically that disease-causing germs could be passed from the dead to the living via doctors. How can scientists not immediately accept ideas so obviously right, you ask? Two reasons. One, the bad one, cognitive bias. The other, the good one: far more paradigm-challenging ideas turn out wrong than right, and too few studies have reliable results, so every new idea is wrong until proven right. What is cruel in criminal trials is necessary in science.

  • Travis Holley

    Augusto Odone and Lorenzo’s Oil. That is one of the situations where a layperson came up with a solution to a medical problem. He received an honorary doctorate for it though…. That doesn’t change the validity of your argument because Augusto studied relentlessly concerning his son’s condition so in a way he went through a mini-med school.

    • Sally Ketchum Ladd

      I have also studied relentlessly for the past 23 years, but all one has to do is open their mind and spend a few hours to learn that the fox is wreaking havoc in the henhouse.

      • sabelmouse

        same!
        and professionals who disregard ” first do no harm” can not be trusted.

      • fiftyfifty1

        But have you done a randomized, double blinded, controlled trial of the fox and the henhouse? If not, there is no valid way for you to draw that conclusion…

      • Nikalix

        So you have studied relentlessly for 23 years and yet you make the mistake of interchanging mortality and morbidity rates ?

        With such knowledge at your disposal how could you do such a rookie mistake ?

        • Who?

          She also confused leprosy and smallpox.

      • Boreal
    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      And what’s the evidence that LO is helpful? IIRC, the clinical trials weren’t all that encouraging.

    • MaineJen

      That’s…that’s a movie

      • Travis Holley

        Based on a real life person, whose real life son, suffered from a real life illness. And he created a real life treatment that showed some, yeah, I know, I said some, benefit for the condition.

  • Lisa

    I can certainly understand the frustration in this article. If I had someone tell me that their diagnosed Bipolar Disorder was a plot hatched by big pharma I would be respectfully concerned. However, may I give one professional opinion to another? This article seethes with anger, hubris and condescension. Now, on the one hand, anger is reasonable, particularly when it leads to medical decisions that kill the very young, elderly and weak. But if you’re a doctor of any kind, you’ve signed up to work with the public, and you need to do so ethically. And that means with self-awareness. Even when people are saying things to you that make smoke come out of your ears. In my profession, it’s pretty much mandatory to be supervised throughout your career. That way you always have someone to talk to when your client reminds you of your mother and it’s really getting in the way of their therapy. And when things get too disturbing, it’s expected that you will seek therapy. Most therapists have their own therapist their whole life. I think this should be the norm for every medical professional. If you’re ever looking at a patient and thinking “you’re an idiot” – get to a therapist and work those feelings out. Because it’s not compassionate toward them – something you’ve taken a oath to be- and not healthy for you.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Sadly, there are many, many doctors who are extremely respectful and compassionate toward anti-vaxxers … and they are ignored. It may be time for some of us to try something new especially because anti-vaxxers suffer from the delusion that they have educated themselves about vaccines.

      • I believe the more angry and condescending you make yourself out to be, the more those that question or protest vaccines are more likely to dig their heels in and refuse to listen to such people. That’s the way I get.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          That’s the way all ignorant, immature people get!

          • Raymond Brun

            We’re hoping that you doctors through government make vaccines mandatory. After all governments works through/with science and logics can prevail and overcome madness (it is madness imo), I’m a layperson in all these department as well but that’s my 5 scents.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “Most therapists have their own therapist their whole life.”

      LOL, no. Only the Freudians and Jungians from what I can tell.

  • someone

    How many people die per year due to medical error?

      • Amazed

        What they don’t get is that one needs to ask themselves a simple question: how many of these people would have lived without any access to medicine? Because mistakes this severe don’t usually happen to your average healthy Jane who went in to treat her average cold. I have experienced medical errors and while one has affected my overall health (a freaking surgeon standing in for an ORTHOPEDIST who did not offer me adequate follow-up in the wake of taking the plasters off my broken foot), none of these killed me. Why was this? Why, because I’m a healthy person who doesn’t need any aggressive treatment, so although there was a mistake, it couldn’t be as bad as to kill me.

        People who die due to medical error are overwhelmingly in bad health and/or critical condition. Healthy and relatively mildly sick people don’t die due to medical errors, usually.

  • Griffin

    So, I can finally see Steve’s list of “verifiable evidence that someone’s child went to sleep and never woke up 12-48 hours after a vaccination”. Disqus WAS playing up after all.

    I can’t open the first (Fox News) link because of regional issues but I can open the next, which goes to a site called the Healthy Home Economist (HHE). The author has an MGA from University of Pennsylvania and is now running a site “devoted to teaching families about the effective, practical application of traditional, ancestrally-inspired diets and evidence-based wellness”. She sells her books on diet, natural remedies, and living green and has a “shopping list” page that hawks the products of other sites called Conscious Food, Wholesome, Pure Food for Better Health, etc.

    I poked around a bit on the HHE shopping page and it was… well, interesting. Clicking on the Meat and Seafood section took me to a site called Epic, which promotes the paleo diet and sells jerky (US$50 for 8 pieces [64 g]), pork rinds (US$16 for 70 g), clothing bearing their logo etc. It must be doing quite well because it has 26 managers and directors who are collectively called The Wolfpack, including one guy who is from “the sacred motherland of Austin TX” and – rather alarmingly – has “a purebred bloodline and passion for betterment”. I invite you guys to check out Epic’s The Wolfpack page: I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a large collection of bizarre people before. Epic also sells bone broth for an eye-watering US$42 for 400 ml.

    The HHE doesn’t mind people using formula when it’s not convenient to breastfeed but of course it has to be homemade because commercial baby formula contains “>50% sugar”, “lacks any quality, nutrient dense ingredients”, is “fortified with synthetic vitamins/minerals”, “lacks enzymes, completely dead product”, and is “devoid of beneficial bacteria”. She hawks a homemade baby formula kit from Radiant Life (Ancient Wisdom for Modern Health), which costs US$174 for a 37-day supply. It is based on raw milk, which is NOT included in the price.

    Anyway, onto the HHE’s post on the poor little baby who died shortly after a vaccination. The report is based on a 2013 article in the Indian newspaper The Mumbai Mirror. The child was 1 month old and had a cough when she received the Hep B, DTP, and oral polio vaccines. She died several hours after the vaccinations. The HHE rails at the “negligent, incompetent medical staff” for vaccinating a sick child. Then, revealing her ignorance, she says, “Apparently, Ayushi’s situation is far from unusual. Many Indian children receiving a large number of routine vaccinations at one time are sick, malnourished and may even live in shocking conditions without access to clean water”. Um. Those are EXACTLY the people who desperately need vaccines, and as soon as possible, as soon as they can mount an immune response to the vaccine.

    In fact, I suspect that the baby had not received the recommended vaccinations at birth since oral polio is normally given at birth in India (along with BCG and the first dose of DTP and Hep B).

    In her post, the HHE also mentions another case where Stacy, a Belgian 8-week-old (born 1 month premature, a twin) with a slight cold, was vaccinated against rotavirus, pneumococcal disease, DTP, polio, Hep B and HIB. Seven days later, she developed a high fever and was hospitalized for observation (while receiving an unspecified “medicine”). Unfortunately, in the next few hours, she developed signs of pneumococcal meningitis and/or septicemia and died despite 3 hours of resuscitation attempts. The traumatized parents claim the pediatrician first stated the baby had gastro but that it “wasn’t serious”; the nurse was indifferent to the child’s needs; and that a request by a pediatrician for a spinal tap and a specific antibiotic was denied by the head pediatrician.

    The mother mentions seeing a homeopath for the other twin soon after Stacy’s death. Both parents are utterly convinced that the vaccines overwhelmed their already sick child and made her susceptible to the devastating effects of an invasive Streptococcus pneumoniae infection. They believe that the Belgian authorities, including doctors, are secret agents of a money-making scam that fills their own coffers and those of big pharma.

    Of course, as an immunologist, I know that the much more likely possibility is that the child was infected with S. pneumoniae (which is ubiquitous) 4 days after the vaccinations (3 days is the usual incubation time for S. pneumoniae). Her slight cold and the fact that she was 4 weeks premature may have made her less able to fight off the infection. The Prevnar vaccination didn’t have enough time to produce a sufficient response to the bug because it takes 3 shots to build full immunity to S. pneumoniae: the first vaccine only primes the immune system, it does not generate a quick and effective immune response by itself.

    It’s a sad case, like that of Ayushi. The authorities did make a mistake: the parents demanded an autopsy, which they claim was denied. The reasons are not clear but in my opinion it should have been performed to calm suspicions of a cover up by the authorities.

    Going back to the HHE’s report of Stacy’s case, she again displays her lack of understanding of basic vaccinology.
    (1) She thinks it is “shocking” that a baby gets vaccinated against 8 diseases in one day – when babies are exposed for the first time to literally thousands of bacteria and viruses every day; heck, for every human cell that makes up our body, we bear 10 bacteria on and inside our bodies
    (2) She calls Prevnar (pneumococcal conjugate) “a dual vaccination for meningitis and pneumonia”, making it sound like it is two vaccines in one. I wonder what she’ll make of the fact – if she ever learns it – that Prevnar is actually based on THIRTEEN S. pneumoniae strains!
    (3) She says, “The pediatrician told Stacy’s parents that she was fine and probably just suffering from gastroenteritis, which she was already vaccinated against”. Yes, the baby was vaccinated against rotavirus but gastro can be caused by bugs other than rotavirus. (In any case, I doubt the pediatrician suspected gastro because the parents say the exams showed signs of pulmonary and blood infection.) Also, like Prevnar, the rotavirus vaccine is only effective after several vaccinations. The HHE also makes the same mistake with Prevnar – she says “Cause of death was recorded as meninigitis, again, an illness she was vaccinated against”. Yes, 1 week earlier for the first time.

    A quick look at Steve’s other links suggests they are more of the same: morally corrupt people making hay off the terror and pain of parents whose child has died soon after vaccination. These ignorant profiteers don’t want to see that it is a coincidence because by deliberately inciting and promulgating mistrust of authorities, they drive people to buy their products, which promise “wellness” and safety. It’s disgusting.

    • MaineJen

      “Purebred bloodline and a passion for betterment” is scary on all kinds of levels 😮

      • rational thinker

        Yeah that one freaked me out a little, sounds like a serial killer, or a Nazi.

        • demodocus

          Nazis, making serial killers out of ordinary bigots since 1933

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I didn’t go through all the links, but I did notice that several of them were about vaccines that were given improperly (one needle used four times!) In another, the story was about a girl who died 4 days after a vaccine against HPV. The follow up to the story was that the autopsy showed that the death was due to a cyst in the brain. The medical care may have been substandard* and arguably malpractice, but it had nothing to do with the vaccine. Which makes sense when you think about it: 4 days is too late for an acute allergic reaction and too soon for an IgG mediate autoimmune event.

      *It’s hard to tell for certain from just the newspaper report and a bad outcome does not necessarily mean poor care, but it really sounded like they should have admitted her to the hospital at least.

    • rational thinker

      Thanks for checking that out for us I really haven’t had time to do it.

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      “Epic also sells bone broth for an eye-watering US$42 for 400 ml.”
      Bloody hell, I’m in the wrong racket. Time to fire up the crockpot!

      • Griffin

        The HHE also spruiks an “organic” slow cooker. Honestly, the whole site reeks of con-artistry. It’s bald-faced plucking of decadent prats with more money than sense. It seems that all you need to do to part a fool from his money is to mash up elements of real information and knowledge, sprinkle the mix liberally with the key rich idiot bait terms (organic, microbiome, ancestral, non-toxic etc), and add a large dose of conspiracy theory. Do all of this in a serious authoritative way and you’ll soon have the prats lining up to throw money at you.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          Sigh. If it weren’t for these damn ethics…

  • Chi

    NONE of those are anything REMOTELY resembling a credible source on vaccination safety of effectiveness.

    ETA: Also I realize now that you’re reposting the parachuting antivaxxer’s list.

  • Amazed

    17 confirmed cases this far. My niece can’t be vaccinated – doctors advise against it in her case. My friend’s preterm baby was about to get her measles shot but no such luck. There are no more doses. They’re on the waiting lists. Both mothers are very, very concerned. And I place no trust in anti-vax parents’ integrity and care for others. Last month, a bunch of kids got sick because they went to a birthday where the mother had not cared to call beforehand and say that her kid was VERY ill. SIL only realized it when after the party, she went to pick up Amazing Niece.

    Anyone thinks anti-vax parents are going to refrain from rushing their kids to the doctor with clear measles symptoms without caring who is in this waiting room?

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      Oh my gosh. When it comes to making mom friends, I don’t care if you breastfeed or bottlefeed. I don’t care if you use cloth or disposable diapers. I don’t care if you feed your kid Cheetos or carrot sticks. But so help me, vaccination is one deal breaker, and the other HUGE deal breaker is not letting me know when your kid is sick.
      Before Christmas, I was watching an extra kid for a while. I explained very carefully to mom that I couldn’t take the kid if she was sick by late November because we were going to visit family, including my DH’s grandmother who is recovering at 80-something from cancer surgery and pneumonia, for the holidays.
      Kid arrives in early December and has a cough. I let mom know. “Oh, whoops! DH must have thought it was just allergies!”
      I was bloody furious. Sure, it was “just” a cold, but my really lovely grandmother-in-law hasn’t gotten to hold my youngest kiddo yet. *looks sad* Why? Because Baby Books The Third was still sniffly when we were out there, and there was no freaking way I was handing his adorable self and his rather less adorable germs over to Abuela and her questionable immune system.
      (Mind you, she go to see him, at least, because when she came over I passed him off to someone else, changed clothes, hugged her, and had Baby Books held up at the end of the room so she could coo at him. Not really the same, though…)

      • Amazed

        Definitely not the same!

        I saw pictures from said birthday. Poor birthday girl looks really miserable. I was ready to shake this mum. Hard. One possible explanation is that this was an expensive party and they didn’t want to lose the money and eat their expensive cake on their own at home but first, when one throws a party in a flu season, they should do a very careful calculations and take all ifs into account. And second, the money all these parents spent to treat their kids and possibly themselves had certainly matched the money given for the party.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          When last heard from, she was having a difficult time finding the time to sit down and write due to her responsibilities at her (personally owned) art gallery plus the three concerts she’s attended in the last couple weeks. So, I’d say she’s doing very well, and thanks for the good wishes. 😀
          As to your last, that poor kid! And that’s also why the most $$ I spend on a kid’s birthday party is ordering in some pizza and grabbing a variety of decent beer and wine…sigh.

          • Amazed

            A funny note: Recently, Amazing Niece stuck her baby with black magnets all over. Baby had chicken pox, you see.

            Sad thing is, she took better care of her sick baby than many adults do. I mean, chicken pox parties? Are you kidding me?

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            That’s kind of how I got it. I was hired to watch a gaggle of kids while the parents discussed homeschooling vs using a school a group of them, not a one of ’em with any educational background, natch, had founded. Several of the kids had chicken pox, including the host family’s kids. No one batted an eye about this because “everyone has to have it sometime.” And, of course, they were all more Catholic than the Pope, so nobody vaxxed their kids for varicella. I was one very sick 13-year-old not too long thereafter.

          • Amazed

            I’ve never got it. We don’t have the vaccine here either. The kid next door has it right now. I mean, it’s lterelly 10 meters away from me, in the opposite flat. Today, both kids were crying because they could hear me from behind the door and they knew their mom was coming to me. They wanted to visit me but while they’re always welcome, their varicella is not, especially when I’m no longer 13. Fortunately, their parents are not keen on blessing people with their chicken pox either.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Oh, geez. For heaven’s sake, stay healthy! I have no doubt you know this, but chicken pox is contagious for some time via droplets, IIRC.

      • My brother didn’t tell us he was sick until we’d driven 1.75 hours to see him. “I have a cold,” he said, and sat and stared like a zombie. We all came down with flu starting a day or so after the visit. Grrrr! My brother is nearly 50! He should know better!

  • Griffin

    Maybe we should replace the word “herd” in “herd immunity”. It seems to inflame people like Steve, maybe it makes them feel they are not important enough. I guess I wouldn’t like to be referred to as if I am cattle by people who seem to know things I can’t understand. What about “group immunity”?

    • mabelcruet

      But then they’ll object in the grounds that they aren’t part of the group, they aren’t sheeple and are better than the rest of us who don’t think deeply enough and just accept the propaganda blindly.

      Maybe ‘population immunity’?

      • Griffin

        Sounds good. It’s so broad and unspecific, surely nobody could take exception to it?

        • mabelcruet

          Someone somewhere will complain. But I think we do need to get another term that reduces the ‘animal’ feel of the word herd.

    • Box of Salt

      Community immunity.
      It even rhymes.

      • rational thinker

        Sounds great ill vote for that one

      • Griffin

        Yes, catchy

  • Steve Spiller

    VACCINES ARE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. HERD IMMUNITY. GOTTA PROTECT THE HERD. VACCINES ARE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. HERD IMMUNITY. IMMUNOCOMPROMISED PPL HAVE TO BE PROTECTED. VACCINES ARE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.

    Talk about an echo chamber…

    • Griffin

      Did you delete your post with all the sources containing verifiable evidence that someone’s child went to sleep and never woke up 12-48 hours after a vaccination? Or did Disqus eat it? Can you repost?

      • Amazed

        Would it be OK if I do it for him? I don’t know how it is for other people, but I can still see this post. I haven’t refreshed in a while, though.

        Oh, I see rational thinker has already done this. I can’t open even one page, though. They’re all non-existing or not allowed to see for my region.

        I’ve never seen a bunch of links that are ALL unavailable to me.

        • Griffin

          Yes, please. Maybe take a screenshot as well. rationalthinker reposted it I think but I can’t see the repost either.

          • Amazed

            In fact, I can only see her repost. I mistakenly took it for the initial post. Sir Brave bravely (and dirty) deleted, after all.

            Try to refresh and look for rational thinker’s post again. If not, I will post the links for you. But they’re all literally unavailable to me. I don’t know why. And many of them don’t even come in my address bar with their full names.

          • Griffin

            Weird. Are you in Europe? I am, and when I clicked on Steve’s first link (the Fox News link), I got “not available in your region” and then the whole thing disappeared. Same with rationalthinker’s repost. Is it something to do with Europe’s right to disappear net censorship law? Can anyone from the US still see rationalthinker’s repost?

          • Amazed

            Yes, I’m in Europe. I wonder what’s going on. Usually, I can open the US links just fine.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I was in a math forum the other day, and they all kept saying things like, “2 times 2 is four!” and “26 – 12 = 14”

      Talk about an echo chamber!

      • sdsures

        ‘I was in a math forum the other day, and they all kept saying things like, “2 times 2 is four!” and “26 – 12 = 14″‘

        Ohhh-kaaaay… O_o

  • Griffin

    Hmmm, a laysplainer who doesn’t believe measles can kill people in developed countries has parachuted in. The unmannerly attitude suggests he/she is not looking to exchange ideas in good faith. Not worth the effort really.

    • Steve Spiller

      I actually believe it can kill people. Malnourished people. Much like the common cold can kill malnourished people.

      • MaineJen

        You are a goddamn parody of yourself.

        • Steve Spiller

          Thanks for adding such quality commentary to the discussion, MaineJen.

          I’m actually surprised you didn’t go with your ever effective and often-used “cough*racist*cough” response this time.

      • Griffin

        Since you were not rude, I will reply:

        The unvaccinated 7 yo daughter of Roald Dahl, the writer, died of measles encephalitis. From her photos, she was well nourished. This is what her father wrote:

        “Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old.

        As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

        “Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

        “I feel all sleepy, ” she said.

        In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.”

        • Steve Spiller

          Again, I’m not disputing that children have never died from measles. Especially back before the 1950s. Of course some children died, but those rates had been drastically reduced before a vaccine was ever introduced due to improvements in sanitation and things like running refrigerators in every household.

          Now imagine if nobody believed Dahl and called him crazy for suggesting that measles killed his daughter like they do to people who’s children went to sleep and never woke up 12-48 hours after a vaccination?

          • Griffin

            Sanitation, better nutrition, and fridges indeed helped reduce the rates of all sorts of diseases. People are also now less likely to die from diseases like measles because of better medical responses to them. But vaccines are necessary to prevent epidemics from bursting out and killing the vulnerable among us – the young babies, the immunosuppressed, the ones with underlying medical conditions, the frail elderly.

            With regard to your second paragraph, can you provide verifiable evidence that someone’s child went to sleep and never woke up 12-48 hours after a vaccination?

          • Griffin

            I’m still interested in seeing verifiable evidence that someone’s child went to sleep and never woke up 12-48 hours after a vaccination.

          • Pudel

            When my daughter was 7 weeks old (not vaccinated as 8 weeks was first vaccination) she stopped breathing and had to be resuscitated. Fortunately she survived. She is 17 now. We rang her Godfather the next day, he asked if she had a strep throat, and he believed many SIDS cases were due to an underlying infection. (He is a paediatric emergency physician. This theory has since been bought up in medical journals.) A couple of days later she came out in a rash and was diagnosed with Rubella. But all that aside in the month after this episode, I suddenly had the best sleeping baby out. I was waking her to feed. She slept for 12-14 hours every night for 4 weeks, and was being woken during the day for feeds. At 12 weeks this child started waking every 3-4 hours at night and it all changed. I believe this was due to the missed SIDS, and or the Rubella. Did not bother me, other than sore boobs. She has since been fully vaccinated as I believe the risks of vaccination are well out weighed by the benefits.

          • Who?

            What’s a few dead kids, amiright?

            And those folks do exist these days. The delightful (and now renamed) Australian Vaccination Network accused a mother whose baby died of whooping cough of lying about it.

          • JGC

            the numbers have become drastically reduced, because the number of people who contract a measles infection has been drastically reduced via the introduction of routine childhood vaccination against measles.

            The risk of dying should you contract measles, on the other hand, has not: measles still causes the same 1 death per every 1000 infections it has for much of the 20th century (including the 1950’s).

            And that incidence rate doesn’t reflect the additional deaths caused by SSPE post-infection, or the risk associated with having your immune memory wiped out for a period of 18 months to two years, placing you at increased risk of contracting infectious diseases other than measles.

          • Azuran

            Your example on Dahl is not actually appropriate.
            Measles has lot of clinical signs which allows us to diagnose it. So it’s likely that before dying, his daughter had clinical signs of measles, possibly saw a doctor who diagnosed this as measles, and then she died after showing neurological signs. There are a lot of signs that point to this being secondary to measles. And such a progression of measles has been seen multiple time. So it’s not a wild guess, it’s the best possible explanation from the information available at the time. (And if someone could to back in time, take sample from the girl and give proof that it wasn’t actually measles, we’d probably agree with them and accept this new conclusion provided that their proof was scientifically sound)

            Now you compare this to: My child had a vaccine, and suddenly died 12-48 hours later. You don’t point out any kind of logical progression of anything to reach that conclusion. You say it’s vaccine, I say it’s the banana they are that day (But most likely, it’s SIDS or something else). And the actual thing is that we didn’t call those people crazy. There was initial plausibility for this hypothesis, so we did what we needed to do: We investigated the claim.
            There have been a lot of studies of vaccines over the decade. The death rate of kids are not any higher in the 24-48 hours following a vaccine. We give millions of dose each years, if it had such an effect, it would be easy to see. The sad thing is, some kids unfortunately die untimely death and statistically, some of those deaths are going to be close to vaccines or some other kind of unrelated event.Those people are not being taken seriously anymore because we know it’s not what killed their child, because we already investigated and disproved their hypothesis.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        If we could get a vaccine for the common cold that was half as effective as the one for measles, I would be all over it. In a heartbeat.

        • Steve Spiller

          Good for you. I wouldn’t. You are free to do whatever you believe is beneficial.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            True. I mean, you have an MBA, so you are really smart. For a moron.

          • Steve Spiller

    • rational thinker

      Steve and paleo guy should be best friends.

      • MaineJen

        Yeah. The “malnourished” thing sounds awfully familiar.

      • Steve Spiller

        I keep hearing about this paleo guy. He does sound like a pretty cool guy, actually. I’d welcome an introduction.

  • Amazed

    Three more cases of measles here. Last morning, there were zero. Now, we have five confirmed, two in the freaking capital. Lucky us.

    • Steve Spiller

      5 cases!!! AHHHHHHHHH.. THE HORROR!!!!!! We are all gonna DIE!!!!!!

      • rosewater1

        5 cases=5 people WHO DID NOT NEED TO GET SICK.

        It’s rare, but measles can be fatal.

        • Steve Spiller

          It’s rare, but pimples can be fatal. Let’s mandate Accutane.

          200,000,000 cases of pimples = 200,000,000 people WHO DID NOT NEED TO GET PIMPLES.

          • rosewater1

            Sigh. Is that all the argument you have? Pimples?

            You want to gamble? Go right ahead. I hope it works out for you.

            If any of those 5 people are children, it would be nice for such a concerned parent as you not to belittle their suffering.

            But, I suspect that is asking too much,.

          • Amazed

            At least one is a child. With a vaccinated older sibling. Who didn’t get sick. Surprise, surprise.

          • Steve Spiller

            So… There is a possibility that this was likely a vaccine strain of the measles that was shed onto the younger sibling… Surprise, surprise.

          • MaineJen

            Please stop talking about things you don’t understand. You’re hurting my brain.

          • Steve Spiller

            I will if you stop talking about medical journals pulling studies as if you understand how businesses behave the way that they do. That hurts my brain.

          • Amazed

            Are you a naturopath, Stevie boy? You seem to know much about how businesses act. A naturopath, a homeopath, or just Andy’s buttlicker? What are you?

          • Steve Spiller

            Andy’s buttlicker? Lol. I feel like i’m debating a bunch of elementary students.

          • rosewater1

            And golly we’re lucky that a wise one like you is here to school us!

          • Steve Spiller

          • rosewater1

            As fascinating as all this is, I must excuse myself.

            My father is in the hospital, recovering from c diff and surgery for a perforated bowel. After reading what you have to say, clearly I have things to tell the people caring from him. Who cares if they are medically trained?

            Then I’ll need to call my nephew and tell him that his wife clearly doesn’t need the doctor visits and therapy that she’s getting to recover from a massive stroke 2 brain surgeries.

            And they don’t need to take my great niece to any more well baby visits, right?

          • MaineJen

            My husband went through a Hartmann’s and then a colostomy reversal because of ruptured diverticulitis. 6 years later he’s completely recovered except for a ginormous scar. Wishing your father the same!!

          • kilda

            aw, you think what you’re doing is “debating?” adorable.

          • rosewater1

            Hmm, why don’t I believe you? Like most of your ilk that show up on this site, you’ll stick around until something or someone else distracts you.

          • Amazed

            Please, Jen, do take one for the team. He just literally wrote that he doesn’t care if two kids are going to live or die. Let him keep talking. Let his words stay and expose anti-vax mentality.

          • MaineJen

            But….the stupid. It burns us.

          • Amazed

            Be brave. Please. Else, things like, “Vaccines were invented in 1942 and in 1943, there were already autistic children!” will keep spreading. Yes, I personally saw this one.

          • rosewater1

            And gee, pity that BOTH of them didn’t get sick with this harmless disease, right?

          • Nikalix

            Show me one documented case of measles transmitted through shedding.

            https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-myth-of-vaccine-shedding/

          • Steve Spiller

            Well, since the measles is safest to contract as a child, I suspect all 5 of those kids will go on to live long healthy lives.

            Lol the measles is harmless people. Unless, of course, you live in Bangladesh.

          • MaineJen

            cough*racist*cough

          • Steve Spiller

            Yes, because it’s racist to point out a country’s poverty level.

          • rosewater1

            You suspect they’ll live long healthy lives? Okay, I’m satisfied. And I’m sure the parents will be too.

          • Steve Spiller

            I couldn’t give a fuck less.

          • Amazed

            Please, please, Steve, keep talking. Thank you so much for revealing what your anti-vaxxer ilk is like – heartless scums. Please keep demonstrating it for eternity.

            You couldn’t give a fuck less if these kids live or die. Thank you for your honesty.

          • Steve Spiller

            Well, I can say with 100% certainty that none of those 5 kids will die, and so I couldn’t give a fuck less if those parents happen to believe that their children’s lives are at all at risk. It’s ppl like you who should feel ashamed about fear mongering everyone over a mild illness to the point where they actually think their lives are threatened.

          • rosewater1

            Excuse me??? 100% certainty? I’ve worked in the medical field for close to 15 years. I have NEVER heard ANY medical professional say anything “100%” in terms of a patient’s health. But you’ll say it?

          • Steve Spiller

            Where are we? United States? Yep. 100% certainty.

          • rosewater1

            No. Not 100%. Not ever. And you know that. You are clearly enjoying the stir you are causing, and doing everything you can to fan the flames. Including posting utter nonsense.

          • Amazed

            Hey, now we know why Olivia Dahl died from complications after measles! She wasn’t in the United States!

            For the record, as many of the regulars here know, I’m not in the United States either. As much as it pains homeopaths, naturopaths, lactation “professionals”, and anti-vaxxers, Dr Amy’s site reaches people all over the world.

          • Steve Spiller

            I’m fully aware that idiots exist all over the globe. That fact doesn’t “pain” me at all, actually. I figured as much.

          • rosewater1

            THAT I knew from your first comment. Thank you for saying it. It’s the most honest statement you’ve made.

      • MaineJen

        Wow. You’re an awful person.

        • Steve Spiller

          And you’re wildly unintelligent.

      • Daleth

        5 cases!!! AHHHHHHHHH.. THE HORROR!!!!!! We are all gonna DIE!!!!!!

        Come back and talk to me after your kid becomes one of the five. Right now, you seem to have no problem with other people’s children dying or suffering permanent brain damage. If it were your own kid I think you might change your tune.

        • rosewater1

          Don’t you know that “some children aren’t meant to live? Or have fully functioning brains?”

          • Steve Spiller

            Why do I get the feeling that your brain isn’t fully functioning?

          • MaineJen

            Don’t even talk to him, rosewater. “He has an MBA.”

          • Steve Spiller

            Yep, don’t try to talk to be about business! My understanding of business is far too complex for a lay person.

          • MaineJen

            I don’t give a FUCK about business. I just think it’s deplorable that you don’t care about children getting measles, a disease we had effectively eradicated in this country until you idiot anti-vaxxers decided your little snowflakes didn’t need shots any more. I also think it’s deplorable that you’ve effectively written off “malnourished” and “impoverished” children in other countries, who still die of measles because they can’t get the vaccine that you turned your nose up at for your little snowflakes.

          • Steve Spiller

            Actually, rates of MMR vaccination in many of these malnourished countries are higher than they are in many parts of North America, yet, ppl still die. Well hmmm.. That’s odd. I thought vaccines were the reason death rates declined in North America??

            “Measles vaccination rates in parts of Africa surpass those in North America”

            “That said, in 2000 an estimated 600 African children died from measles every day. Despite improved vaccination rates, the figure still stands at 400 a day, according to GGA’s researcher, Kate Van Niekerk.”

            https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/07/measles-vaccination-rates-africa-surpass-north-america

            It has NOTHING to do with vaccines and EVERYTHING to do with sanitation.

          • MaineJen

            That’s…not what the article says. DO you actually need to be able to read, to get an MBA? Or do you just need to be a Six Sigma black belt?

          • Steve Spiller

            That is EXACTLY what the article says, actually. Lol I literally copy/pasted those quotes from the article. What do you mean that’s not what the article says?

            Ignorant much?

          • MaineJen

            Well, “Steve,” the article (not a scientific article BTW, just a puff piece from the Guardian, which I’m sure you know isn’t a medical journal, being an important businessman and all) doesn’t specify WHICH African countries still have 400 children dying per day of this ‘harmless’ illness. So we don’t know if the countries with close to 100% vaccine uptake are the same countries with the high death rate.

            Africa is a huge continent, you see. With many different countries. What DO they teach in MBA school?

          • Steve Spiller

            Wait.. Africa has many countries??? I had no idea!! Lol. You’ll weasel your way out of anything that flies in the face of your beliefs. It’s cool. I’m glad I was able to introduce that information to you.

          • Nikalix

            You claim that :

            “Actually, rates of MMR vaccination in many of these malnourished countries are higher than they are in many parts of North America (near 100%, actually), yet, ppl still die.”

            And you support that with an article that talk about some countries having high vaccination rates while other countries still have measles mortality. And nowhere in that article does it actually compare vaccination rate and mortality for a single country. Making your whole argument completely meaningless.

            The fact that you act like a child when this is pointed out to you just show that you are not interested in facts, or you would actually use sound arguments.

          • Steve Spiller

            The US has a 91% vaccination rate, while in Canada, which is currently experiencing an outbreak in Toronto, it is 84%, according to a UN estimate. A 95% rate is required for so-called “herd immunity”.

            The GGA survey indicates that some African countries are now achieving near 100% vaccination rates, up by 39% since 2000.

            The survey shows that 16 countries in Africa, including Tanzania, Morocco, Libya, Mauritius, Eritrea, Gambia and Egypt have almost 100% vaccination rates, and five others – Zimbabwe, Algeria, Kenya, Botswana and Lesotho, have higher rates than the US.

            In 2000, WHO reported that 60% of the 777,000 measles deaths worldwide occurred in occurred in sub-Saharan Africa. With improved communication, social mobilisation, counselling and funding, however, measles deaths were reduced by 91% by 2007. At the time, WHO’s director general of health, Margaret Chan, described the trend as “a major public health success and a tribute to the dedication of the countries in the African region.”

            That said, in 2000 an estimated 600 African children died from measles every day. Despite improved vaccination rates, the figure still stands at 400 a day, according to GGA’s researcher, Kate Van Niekerk.

          • GDL

            The Guardian article makes it clear that some parts of Africa (19 countries) have achieved better rates than USA. The ones dying from measles are in the parts (remainder of the 55 countries) with less effective vaccination.

        • Steve Spiller

          Lol… I am not worried about the measles in the slightest. I don’t succumb to the fear mongering like most ppl do.

        • demodocus

          people don’t always die from Russian Roulette, either…

      • rational thinker

        No most likely the children of the ignorant idiots who did not vaccinate them are gonna die. I do not find it a joking matter.

        • Steve Spiller

          Find me an unvaccinated child who died from the measles in the USA in the past 20 years. I’ll wait.

          • MaineJen

            Well you see, Steve, most children in the US are vaccinated for measles, because their parents aren’t morons. So there haven’t been many cases of measles in the US in the past 20 years. Until now.

          • Box of Salt
          • Steve Spiller

            … a list of supposed measles deaths. That is not a list of unvaccinated children who died of measles. Nice try though.

          • Griffin

            I’ll let the Americans give you a case in America. I live in Western Europe, which has excellent medical care, nutrition, sanitation etc. Because the Italians allowed their measles vaccine coverage drop from 95% (needed to prevent outbreaks) to 91%, cases have gone up from 850 in 2016 to 4885 in 2017. Twelve died in 2017-2018. Here is a list of the dead:

            “Among those measles deaths in Europe, there have been at least twelve measles deaths in Italy (five in 2017 and seven in 2018, among just 7,697 cases), all either unvaccinated or partially vaccinated, including:

            a 6-year-old boy with leukemia who caught measles from an intentionally unvaccinated sibling (2017)
            an intentionally unvaccinated 9-year-old girl with chromosomopathy, which is not a contraindication to getting vaccinated (2017)
            a 16-month-old girl with chronic medical problems who caught measles while hospitalized for persistent fever and a subsequent bleeding disorder (2017)
            a 27-year-old woman (2017)
            a young patient who died of measles encephalitis (December 2017)
            a 25-year-old unvaccinated mother
            a 10-month-old unvaccinated boy who likely caught measles when he had been hospitalized for an RSV infection
            a 38-year-old
            a 42-year-old unvaccinated man who was immunocompromised
            a 51-year-old in Sicily
            a 29-year-old in Sicily
            a 23-year-old with leukemia in Trieste who had received one dose of the measles vaccine (October 2018)

          • Steve Spiller

            You name all of these immunocompromised people and I’m supposed to take that as a reason to get my kids vaccinated? 12 immunocompromised ppl in a population of 60 million die and you think that’s going to convince me that the measles is dangerous. For christ sake, these ppl couldve just as easily been killed by the common cold.

            I mean seriously, use your heads!

          • MaineJen

            Again………reading

          • rational thinker

            Again don’t understand what someone is saying.

          • Griffin

            You don’t seem to understand: the reason there is not more than 12 dead in 2 years is because of high immunization rates. If the measles coverage rate drops further in Italy, many, many more than 12 will die.

            Measles also has long term effects on those who survive it, such as subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, where there is progressive brain inflammation that is pretty horrible and often fatal. Approximately 1 in 600 measles-infected babies will develop it. There is no cure.

            And by the way, those 12 poor Italians did not have to die. They would not have gotten measles if the Italians had kept their vaccination rates to 95%.

          • MaineJen

            Did you catch that dirty delete? He just tried to post a few dozen links to “prove” his case…from Fox News and Cafe Mom, to name a few. LOL

          • Griffin

            Did he delete? I tried to open the first one but then it disappeared. But one of my posts from today has also disappeared, maybe Disqus is playing up? I would hope though that Fox News and Cafe Mom are not his only sources.

          • rational thinker

            the list is still on my screen I haven’t refreshed page in awhile

          • MaineJen

            I”m super interested in the Cafe Mom one. I’m sure it’s super informative.

          • rational thinker

            I know right

          • MaineJen

            AGE OF AUTISM

            I *almost* feel a little bit sorry for him. And then I remember that thing about him not caring if kids live or die.

          • rational thinker

            was this the list I just reposted down below?

          • MaineJen

            Yep

          • rational thinker

            yup looks like he deleted it, I don’t think he will be back

          • Griffin

            Damn, it WAS there but now I can’t see it.

          • rational thinker

            I reposted it its down below

          • Griffin

            His latest comment in all caps and his aggression towards us suggest he is a fearful person, hence all the anger. I actually kind of do feel sorry for him, despite his cruel indifference to preventable deaths.

          • Pudel

            I once nursed a young man who developed SSPE he died. Contracted measles at 9, healthy enough kid otherwise, symptoms started at about 19 dead by 21. His parents blamed themselves. They had not gotten him vaccinated due to emigrating from Greece to Australia and the general upheaval this causes to a family.

          • Who?

            Yes the immunocompromised should just suck it up, isn’t that right?

            If ‘using your head’ is what got you to this point, I’ll pass, thanks all the same.

          • AnnaPDE

            Yes, that’s exactly why. Because you are part of society and don’t get to kill others, especially vulnerable others, through reckless decisions.

          • Raymond Brun

            Seriously 🙂
            Im assuming the list from Griffin is accurate.
            These particular beings died of a disease that vaccine avoids deaths from.
            On the other hand, can you make a list of those who died of this vaccine ?
            Anything else would not be logical.

          • Pudel

            I know of one who died in Australia 20 years ago due to Sub Acute Sclerosising Panencephalitis, a side effect of measles. Mortality is very high for this one, fortunately it is a rare side effect. I would say that Australias health system would be equal to the US.

  • Steve Spiller

    Ironic that you praise Ignas Semmelweis in this piece while labeling all doctors who speak out against vaccines as quacks… You do realize that during Ignas’ time, they labeled him a quack for his beliefs as well and even through him into a mental institution, right? Didn’t acknowledge that he was actually right until after he passed. Why do I get the feeling that Andy Wakefield is essentially a modern day Ignas Semmelweis?

    • space_upstairs

      Because you’ve never had or known someone with smallpox or polio? 😉 Seriously, paradigm shifts are rarer than most laypeople think, as is being discussed here. If the current best guess is wrong, there are usually good reasons behind it, and only time and good science can tell who the next paradigm shifter is.

      • Steve Spiller

        Oh, I completely agree. These shifts are rare and only time will tell. However, I strongly disagree with the assertion that “there are usually good reasons behind it”. What exactly was the good reason behind labeling Ignas Semmelweis a quack for suggesting that washing your hands between surgeries was safer and would reduce mortality rates?

        • space_upstairs

          Probably that germ theory was kind of new then (or not fully accepted yet – consider all those who still thought TB was linked to artistic temperaments) and that germs in dead bodies that could make living people sick had not yet been discovered.

          • Steve Spiller

            So you are saying that the good reason is because his theory wasn’t yet widely accepted or understood by the majority? Lol. Yeah… No shit.

          • MaineJen

            His “theory” isn’t accepted because he’s a liar and a fraud. Next!!

          • Steve Spiller

            Yea and so is Ignas Semmelweis!! He’s a liar and a fraud and should be thrown in a mental institution!!!

            Sound familiar?

          • space_upstairs

            And the reason it wasn’t accepted was the lack of decades of extraordinary evidence to prove him and Pasteur right. Even the best ideas need evidence.

        • Steve Spiller

          You know what, actually, you are correct in stating that there are usually good reasons behind it. Here are a couple good reasons we are where we are today with regards to vaccinations…

          https://qz.com/1540673/merck-is-all-but-ready-to-vaccinate-the-world-against-hpv-and-make-billions-in-the-process/

          http://fortune.com/2019/02/05/pfizer-pneumonia-vaccine-treatment-shot-prevnar-13/

          “In 2014, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommended the immunization for adults ages 65 and older in addition to young children, typically those under the age of 2, and adults with certain chronic conditions. And that sent the profits on Prevnar skyrocketing to $23.4 billion since just 2015.”

          So yes, I take that back… There usually are good reasons behind labeling these doctors who go against the grain quacks. In this situation it goes like this… Get CDC to put your vaccine on the childhood schedule or broaden it’s recommendations = profits soar. Ruin any doctor who dare threaten those profits and potentially raises issues that would cause the CDC to remove those recommendations by labeling them quacks.

          • space_upstairs

            There are always bad reasons mixed in with the good ones. But the good reason to accept vaccines today is that there is far more and better evidence that they effectively control contagious diseases than that they frequently cause chronic ones.

    • rational thinker

      My daughter is autistic she needs constant supervision 24/7. She is 14 years old and still in diapers, and partially verbal. Now let me tell you my opinion about Wakefield. He is a lying, manipulative, money grubbing piece of shit and if there is a hell that’s exactly where he is going. I find it disgusting to praise someone with that amount of blood on his hands. Have a nice day 🙂

      • Steve Spiller

        So… Let me get this straight. Because your daughter is autistic and you think that Andy Wakefield is a piece of trash, then it must be true!!? Because people with autistic children are all knowing and have all the answers? Is that your point? Lol.

        Yeah. Makes tons of sense. Almost as much sense as this article.

        • rational thinker

          You just proved what a massive moron you are. You did not understand anything I said. I have met some morons before but wow you take the cake.

          • rational thinker

            Ok I am going to explain my original comment slowly so you can understand it. First I always have to state the severity of my child’s autism so people know it is the severe kind because nowadays due to mistaking other conditions for autism (like Jenny Mccarthy’s son), and because laypeople like yourself not realizing the difference between an ASD and full blown autism. So even though my kid has autism my point obviously was that I would be the first one to say vaccines DO NOT cause autism. You are born with it you do not develop it, and actual autism is more rare than you think and has more do with genetics than anything else. Now the other thing that I clearly stated that this was my personal opinion of Wakefield, so you need to brush up on your reading skills.

    • MaineJen

      So Semmelweis had a paper retracted because his methods were proven shoddy and his data fabricated? Semmelweis was set to profit off of an alternative treatment he just happened to be developing?

      Oh…no. That was just your boy “Andy.”

      • Steve Spiller

        Andy had his paper retracted because medical journals are under pressure to appease the entities which fund them, much like news stations. If you don’t want to believe that, I can’t help you. One must understand the economics of science to understand how this works. Unfortunately, without a business degree, you are merely a lay and couldn’t ever possible understand how or why the world works this way. I have an MBA and I really wish you people would stop LAYSPLAINING to me about how medical journals run their businesses!!!

        • MaineJen

          Oh hey! I work in immunology. I sincerely wish YOU would stop trying to laysplain immunology to me. Vaccines work. Bye.

        • rosewater1

          Ahh, it’s a CONSPIRACY!

          • Steve Spiller

            Are you laysplaining to me? I have an MBA and honestly i hate when people laysplain to me like they have a clue how businesses behave.

        • Daleth

          Andy had his paper retracted because medical journals are under pressure to appease the entities which fund them

          Is that also why “Andy” lost his medical license? ….*crickets*….

          Here’s why the Lancet retracted Wakefield’s fraudulent article:

          “as Britain’s General Medical Council ruled in January, the children that Wakefield studied were carefully selected and some of Wakefield’s research was funded by lawyers acting for parents who were involved in lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers. The council found Wakefield had acted unethically and had shown ‘callous disregard’ for the children in his study, upon whom invasive tests were performed.” More details at the link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831678/

          FYI the Lancet, founded in 1823, has been owned by the Dutch company Elsevier since 1991. Elsevier is funded by tens of thousands of subscriptions from med schools, medical and scientific professionals, etc. Did you research that before posting, or did you just assume that general economic models you learned studying Wal-Mart or McDonald’s or IBM while doing your MBA also applied to the Lancet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier#Market_model

          • Steve Spiller

            I have an MBA. Stop laysplaining please. You don’t understand how businesses behave.

          • MaineJen

            Yes, and as we all know, MBA is the end-all, be-all of terminal degrees. You have the best education. The best expertise. The best words. Bigly.

          • Steve Spiller

            You aren’t allowed to question professionals in their field of expertise. I’m just following the logic of this entire article.

          • Daleth

            I have an MBA. Stop laysplaining please. You don’t understand how businesses behave.

            Did you ask if I have an MBA? Did you ask if I have a business background? Funny how you just assume you are the only qualified person here.

  • Nyte Shayde

    I can’t applaud loud enough.

  • guest

    So, my daughter, who is 14 mos, had to have her 12 mos vaccines postponed due to illness. I brought her in for her vaccines today, and the doctor told me that they are out of MMR and several others. We have been waitlisted. The measles outbreak here in WA state has pushed thousands of unvaccinated families to suddenly come in to pediatrician offices and demand vaccines.

    I am angry. My family has painstakingly kept up our vaccination schedule in an area with notoriously low vaccination rates. I remember being scared for my newborn and other babies because my neighbors were buying in to the antivax thing 100% and I had seen babies with pertussis when I worked as an orderly. I really wondered if the herd immunity that might protect them was just gone.

    Now my daughter is in fragile health and cannot get her MMR vaccine because these people suddenly realized “oh shit, measles is real” and came in demanding immediate care for something they neglected for so long. Not because it was the right thing to do, but because they are scared for themselves. I am glad they are getting vaccinated, but this seems like a bandaid on a bigger problem. Will they keep up with their shots, or will they just go back to not caring when the outbreak is over?

    • Nyte Shayde

      I don’t know where you are, but if you’re in the Puget Sound area, Pac Med currently has the MMR vaccine as well as Providence, Mary Bridge, and Seattle Childrens.

  • doninkansas

    I LOVE YOU!!! I am not a doctor, but I have worked in healthcare for 40 years. I go so tired of people who have no medical training of any kind trying to correct health care professionals with their pet cures they read about online or their ______. (fill in the blank) told them is the TRUTH.

  • Heidi

    So…. um….. can I borrow that picture on the bottom and make posters for my office and exam rooms? Because I’m dying to laminate the angry pointing woman and the definition of laysplaining. This is fierce.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Absolutely!!

  • drcrj

    While many see this as “angry” and “arrogant,” I completely sympathize with the frustration and fury at seeing headlines about ACTUAL PEOPLE DYING because of the anti-vaxx nonsense. At what point, tone police, is the author justified in expressing the fact that she’s at wit’s end? After the 10th utterly preventable death in her city? After the 100th? After the 1000th bit of hate mail she gets for being part of a “Big Pharma” conspiracy? The rage is understandable… and necessary.

  • Fred Francis Down

    Whilst I fully understand the doctor’s frustration at being challenged by lay people with a totally superficial knowledge, attitude plays into the hands of the a the anti-vaxers, who see doctors as arrogant.

    Medical doctors are not the sole possesors of medical knowledge. I graduated with an honours degree in genetics and my first job on graduation was working for the Medical Research Council in the UK, working in the field of exercise physioogy. Most of the people in the team were not medical doctors but physiologists.

    As for medical advances made by non medical people.
    Pasteur – germ theory of desease – vaccines etc was a chemist.

    • GDL

      Pasteur was also a physicist. But he was dean of science at Lille university (where he started working on fermentation) and director of scientific studies at a prestigious French education establishment. His work in Chemistry etc is not evidence that he was some sort of layperson when it came to biology. And this was in 19th Century.

      • Fred Francis Down

        I am not trying to pass Pasteur as not a layperson in biology, my point was that he was not a medical doctor.

        • GDL

          My apologies, I edited in haste and lost what I was aiming for. Pasteur was a bit of a polymath, came at microbiology through his work on fermentation. And his discoveries aided and developed the germ theory and thence he moved into study of diseases.

    • rational thinker

      I don’t think the post is arrogant I sense the tone of the piece is more venting and fed up.

  • OGF of Zolin

    Thank you, a million thank yous.

  • Ken Milne
  • Ken Milne
  • Craig Iedema

    Climate Change Deniers would fit into this category also.

  • Amazed

    First two cases of measles here. A woman and a child. Both unvaccinated, of course. The kid has an older sibling who has been vaccinated but for this child, the mother read much, knew better and did better. Naturally!

    Excuse me, I’ve got an urgent need to puke.

  • Peter Olins

    “Laysplaining”!
    I hope it catches on. It succinctly captures a whole domain of ignorance and behavior.

  • Rosalind Dalefield

    The connection between thalidomide and phocomelia was not discovered by Frances Kelsey. It was discovered by Australian OBGYN William McBride.

  • Rosalind Dalefield

    Also, they should stop telling this Board-certified toxicologist, with over 20 years’ professional experience, that vaccines are “poison” or contain “toxins”. No they are not, and no they do not.

    • sabelmouse

      what do YOU call mercury, aluminium, and so on?

      • Daleth

        What do YOU call hydrogen? We all know hydrogen is incredibly dangerous. It’s incredibly flammable. It’s poisonous. And yet you feed it to your children every day!

        Yes! You feed them a substance that is literally TWO-THIRDS HYDROGEN every single day! You immerse them in this toxin every day at bathtime! What do you think H2O means? Two hydrogen molecules + one oxygen molecule. Poison!

        So. My point is, you don’t understand what’s actually in vaccines. It’s not mercury; it is (or rather WAS, since with the sole exception of the flu shot thimerosal stopped being used in any childhood vaccines almost 20 years ago), a COMPOUND containing mercury. Just like water is a compound containing hydrogen.

        Compounds do not have the same properties as their constituent elements. Giving your kid a glass of water is not at all the same as giving them a glass of hydrogen.

        • tomonthebay

          Don’t forget the dangers of pure oxygen.

      • Ros Dalefield

        Mercury (which is not present in the great majority of vaccines), and aluminium are elements; metals to be more precise. You can find them in the Periodic Table. Like most chemicals they are toxic at certain doses, but those doses are much, much higher than the exposure from vaccines. Furthermore aluminium in particular is ubiquitous in the environment and the diet, and you are exposed to it at much higher levels from sources other than vaccines.
        A toxin is a poison synthesized by a living organism, so Hg and Al are not toxins, even at doses in excess of the toxic threshold.

        • sabelmouse

          goodness, and we were so scaired of dropping thermometers when i grew up!
          should have been afeared of t measles instead.
          so what about injecting vs food/breathing ectr 😉

          • JGC

            “goodness, and we were so scaired of dropping thermometers when i grew up! ”

            You are aware that thermometers when you grew up did contain elemental mercury and not thimerosal, I trust.

      • JGC

        Elements.

      • tomonthebay

        I call them natural elements. What do you call them?

        • sabelmouse

          toxic to humans.

          • tomonthebay

            Like ALL substances, it depends on the dose. Pure oxygen is toxic too sabel darlin’.

          • Actually, it is very toxic and a cancerogen. How toxic is easily imaginable via the fact that cells possess several redundant mechanisms to keep oxygen in a bound state.

          • Peter Harris

            And what so-called “redundant mechanisms” would they be Thomas?

          • The SODs for instance, Petey.

          • Peter Harris

            Where’s your link Thomas? And where is your understanding?

          • sabelmouse

            luckily outside of human interference we’re not likely to have any of those.

          • Boreal

            They’re in your blood, naturally occurring, Einstein.

      • Boreal
        • sabelmouse

          lol. or maybe LOL!

          • Boreal

            Your laughter betrays your extreme ignorance.

          • sabelmouse

            more lulz!

          • Boreal

            Are you a Dunning-Kruger or Trump U grad?

          • sabelmouse

            out of ideas, ain’t ya!

          • Boreal

            I have plenty of ideas and the critical thinking skills to explore them. Lulz is correct. I am lmao at your ignorance, troll.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Minor correction: I think you mean Frances Kelsey.

    • Rosalind Dalefield

      No, she means Australian OBGYN William McBride. He was the one who identified the link between thalidomide and phocomelia.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Good point. Kelsey rejected the application because it was incomplete and lacked rigor, not specifically because of the embryo-fetal risk. Random trivia: The thalidomide application was her second since being hired by the FDA and was given to her because it was an easy one.

        • Rosalind Dalefield

          That is correct. However, she did not identify that thalidomide was teratogenic. That was McBride. He was awarded a CBE and the Order of Australia for his work.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I heard the other day that even Jay Gordon is now telling people to get vaccinated.

    • rational thinker

      Holy shit I never thought that was possible. This is the guy who reportedly saw autism happen in his office many times after kids got the MMR. I always thought he was the worst one out of all the quacks.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        It’s kind of strange. He was one who constantly argued that measles was a mild disease, so there was no reason to worry about it.

        Of course, he also justified it by referring to the Brady Bunch measles episode, so he was pretty dumb in doing so even in that way.

        But with the outbreak in the northwest, apparently he’s decided it’s not worth it.

        • Who?

          It must be making for some interesting conversations in his office.

          Because once the cornerstone is removed, the edifice starts to look a little wobbly.

          700 dead of measles in The Phillipines. I guess they were poor. Andrew Wakefield has a lot to answer for.

          • Steve Spiller

            Lol… The Philippines* is a developing country ravished with poverty. The people there are severely malnourished and of course many won’t survive even some of the most mild illnesses. The fact that you think people dying from measles in the Philippines* says anything about the severity of measles is just laughable.

          • space_upstairs

            One in 500 *healthy* people who catch the measles will suffer severe complications. The rate for severe complications from the vaccine is closer to one in 500,000, as is the risk of (getting measles in a developed country – 1 in 1000) x (complications if you get the measles – 1 in 500). If people stopped vaccinating, everyone would get the measles again and we’d be back up to 1 in 500. Which sounds rare, but it’s way higher than your odds of hitting the lottery.

          • Steve Spiller

            You may want to check your statistics. Even the CDC claims that before the measles vaccine was introduced that the rate of sever complications was very low. But sure… Whatever you say!

          • Daleth

            Even the CDC claims that before the measles vaccine was introduced that the rate of sever complications was very low.

            Uh, what? Quote from the CDC:

            “As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.

            About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.”

            https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            And 498/499 of those who don’t suffer “severe complications” will be miserable with a fever and nasty itchy rash for more than a week, and will be stuck at home. If they are kids, that means they can’t go to daycare, and their parents will have to take a week or more off of work. If that parent makes $50K a year, it only costs them about a thousand bucks.

            But, oh, I know, a low-grade fever for maybe a day and soreness at the injection site for those 498 kids would be SO much worse than getting the disease….

          • space_upstairs

            The irony of anti-vaxers is that if a vitamin or herb could legitimately claim to do what even the most dicey mainstream vaccines (e.g. flu) could do for common illnesses, they would almost surely take the vitamin or herb in a heartbeat. So it’s not a question of effectiveness, it’s a question of market niche. Vaccines are marketed to the common man and therefore must be no good.

          • MaineJen

            cough*racist*cough

          • Steve Spiller

            Racist? For merely pointing out a fact that a country has high levels of poverty? Lol. Whatever you say.

          • Daleth

            The fact that you think people dying from measles in the Philippines* says anything about the severity of measles is just laughable.

            How about America, then? Before the vaccine came out in 1963, about 500 people a year died from measles and another 1000 suffered measles encephalitis, which often causes permanent brain damage. Also, about 48,000 people a year had such severe cases that they were hospitalized.

            Bear in mind that the population then was half what it is now, so those numbers these days would be 1000 deaths, 2000 cases of encephalitis and 96,000 hospitalizations, every single year.

          • Who?

            What’s a few dead, poor, brown kids?

            I don’t know if it makes you a racist, or just an ignorant dullard with an attitude problem.

            Oh and I see you have an MBA? I’ve avoided getting one because I knew they’d go out of fashion, as they have, but you do you.

    • Christopher Hickie

      Jay Gordon is an opportunistic lying sack of you know what. He should have lost his license for going on the news to tell people not to vaccinate during multiple SoCal measles outbreaks as well as his anti-vaccine web page and his “Vaccines?” DVD you can buy on Amazon.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Oh, I know it, Chris.

        He is all about self-grandizing. He needs to do something to get back in the spotlight.

        I’ve considered him nothing but a joke for years, and my only engagement with him (when I did that stuff) was mockery.

      • Peter Harris

        While you are busy smearing others, real crimes and corruption is going on, right in front of you, and you say nothing!

        Clearly, you are the sack of s*** in this debate!

        Examples of fraud cases.

        $3 billion GSK settlement. On 2 July 2012, GlaxoSmithKline pleaded guilty to criminal charges and agreed to a $3 billion settlement of the largest health-care fraud case in the U.S. and the largest payment by a drug company.[8] The settlement is related to the company’s illegal promotion of prescription drugs, its failure to report safety data,[9] bribing doctors, and promoting medicines for uses for which they were not licensed. The drugs involved were Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label, non-covered uses. Those and the drugs Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex were involved in the kickback scheme.[10][11][12] The government investigation of GSK was launched largely on the basis of information provided by four whistleblowers who filed two qui tam (whistleblower) lawsuits against the company under the False Claims Act. GSK settled the whistleblowers’ lawsuits for a total of $1.017 billion out of the $3 billion settlement, the largest civil False Claims Act settlement to date.[13]
        Pfizer $2.3 billion settlement: Pfizer settled multiple civil and criminal allegations for $2.3 billion in the largest case of pharmaceutical and health care fraud in US history. The drugs involved were Bextra (an anti-inflammatory drug), Geodon (an anti-psychotic drug), Lipitor (a cholesterol drug), Norvasc (anti-hypertensive drug), Viagra (erectile dysfunction), Zithromax (antibiotic), Zyrtec (antihistamine), Zyvox (an antibiotic), Lyrica (an anti-epileptic drug), Relpax (anti-migraine drug), Celebrex (anti-inflammatory drug), and Depo-provera (birth control).[14]
        Merck $650 million settlement: Merck settled a nominal pricing fraud case in which the company was accused of taking kickbacks and violating Medicaid best price regulations for various drugs.[15][16]
        United States et al., ex rel. Jim Conrad and Constance Conrad v. Forest Pharmaceuticals, Inc, et al. involved a drug manufacturer selling a drug, Levothroid, that had never been approved by the FDA. These allegations settled for $42.5 million due to multiple whistleblowers stepping forward to provide detailed information on the alleged fraud. The collective reward to the relators in this case was over $14.6 million.[17][18]

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_fraud#Types_of_fraud

  • Christopher Hickie

    Hey…I went to med school and vaccinate children. Thank you!

    • rational thinker

      Thank you, for saving lives every day by giving vaccines to children.

  • mabelcruet

    I think research methodology is an area some of these activists really don’t understand. The papers they quote tend to be fairly geriatric, and of course cherry picked to suit. I don’t think they understand that scientific progress is made by testing and re-testing hypotheses, and that negative findings are just as important as positive ones, and that just because something has been published doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s still current. Papers aren’t generally withdrawn if their conclusions are later found to be erroneous (generally papers only get withdrawn when there are issues regarding probity, falsifying data or similar fraud, like Wakefield). But just because an article is still available, that doesn’t mean it still holds true-science progresses, and we can see how it progresses over time. We don’t just say stop, we don’t need to do any more research on this, we know all there is to know. Off topic a bit, but I can only think of one trial where it was halted because the results were so spectacular that to continue it would put infants at risk-it was a huge neonatal hypothermia brain cooling trial to reduce the risk of hypoxic brain damage. Those babies who were randomised to the cooling arm did so much better than those who weren’t cooled that it was considered unethical to carry on and instead give everyone cooling.

    I started med school in the mid 80s, and we were most definitely taught about immunology, nutrition, breast-feeding and everything else that some of these groups claim we know nothing about. And that knowledge gets revised over time-we don’t just stop learning once we graduate. We have to show ongoing professional development, life long learning. And nurses and loads of other health care professionals have to do the same (and lawyers and accountants and various others do it). The way some of these activists group tell it, it’s like we stop thinking immediately after graduation and just coast along, and nothing could be further from the truth. We are always questioning and learning and taking new knowledge on board.

    • Griffin

      I agree, anti-vax people (and others of their ilk) do NOT understand the scientific process. I think it’s because they don’t understand – or don’t want to believe – that WE AND THEY are all emotional lizard-brained beings. They operate from fear, they want to be in control. I get it. It’s not easy to be a human.

      Yet the scientific process is the best approach that we have to get to rational decision-making despite our prejudices and self-centered impulses. Because we are humans, the scientific process is corruptible, definitely not a perfect process but like Churchill said about democracy “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried.”

      The balast of knowledge takes a long time to acquire, and yes, the acquisition never stops. I agree with Dr. Tuteur that at a certain point, when there is wilful ignorance that is putting other people’s lives in danger, one needs to make clear that the ignorant ARE ignorant. A little while back, I said to a laysplaining acquaintance, “Bacteria are not viruses. They are NOT the same thing. Therefore, antibiotics – which btw target BACTERIA – don’t work on viruses. You are NOT a doctor, please don’t give such irresponsible advice.” It was said with some unsmiling emphasis. It didn’t go over well with the laysplainer or her husband but I do know the target of the laysplainer went and got a real doctor’s opinion after that.

      “Laysplainer” – it’s a good term, I like it. It’s a shortcut for an exasperating and difficult-to-handle type of person that abounds these days. By labeling it, maybe we can more effectively tackle it.

    • Sue

      I was also in Med School in the early 80’s and like you, I learned a huge amount about the anatomy, physiology and pathology of the immune system, infectious diseases and how vaccines work (“medical students only get one hour on vaccines”), and the anatomy, biochemistry, metabolic pathways and clinical functions of all the macro- and micro-nutrients (“doctors only get one hour on nutrition”).

      For specialist training, we not only had to learn research methods but also had to publish or present original research.

      I’ve lost count of the amount of times some random person on social media, who never went anywhere medical school, has lectured me about what I learned there, and since.

    • OGF of Zolin

      They also have no conception of levels of evidence. To them 3 anecdotes is impossible to fathom as anything but a compelling “series of cases”.

  • rational thinker

    This reminds me of the guy in the paleo diet discussion he was certain he knew so much more than anyone else, it was more arrogance than intellect with him.

    • space_upstairs

      Like Mabelcruet mentioned, he didn’t seem to fully understand science as a process and why paradigm shifts are slow to happen. He thought that because he read lots of research that supported his pet ideas, he could prove them right, and a paradigm shift in nutrition and medicine was well under way. He did not account for cognitive bias, which I tried to model for him by showing my cards, but knowing of cognitive bias usually only helps you see it in other people, and if you see it in yourself it’s just the tip of the iceberg and does not stop you from engaging in it.

      • rational thinker

        What shocked me most about him was how he kept implying he was smarter than everyone else even after finding out he was arguing with two real scientists. So out of curiosity a few weeks after the conversation with him on the paleo post I tried to find out if this was a one time thing or if this was a habit. I found out he trolls old posts of anything anti paleo. He turns up on blogs that are months or years old to preach about his paleo diet, and anyone who did not agree with him he called dumb or anti intellectual.

        • space_upstairs

          I’m not surprised he made a full blown hobby out of it. Anyway, though I am a real scientist, I admit to being as far from the field of nutrition and health as possible, which worked against me in the debate along with admitting my own cognitive biases. (I should have known that there was no way he would admit his, knowing what I do about them.) Yet I’m sure a sensible health researcher would have backed me up in my debates with the crank engineer about dark energy and the like, on the basis that most scientists respect the work behind the “mainstream” of other fields and usually of their own (unless, perhaps, they dedicate themselves to challenging the paradigm of their own field and are deep in their own cognitive biases).

        • demodocus

          My personal favorite was that kid who was arguing with Mabel about something in the development of neonates.

          • mabelcruet

            I still maintain he was trying to get us to do his homework assignment for him…

      • mabelcruet

        Scientific progress is generally made in a series of teeny tiny baby steps. In my own speciality of pathology, we have a technique called immunohistochemistry-immuno stains are a great way of identifying the cell of origin in tumours. Knowledge of where the tumour originated helps with treatment decisions. When immuno was first developing, the papers produced were all ‘tumour X is positive with stain Y’, and it was hailed as the absolutely last word in diagnosis, and it was going to revolutionize how pathologists work, and we wouldn’t need to know anything about tumour morphology anymore because all we would need to do is throw brown stains at the tumour and see what sticks.

        But as more and more work was done and we realised that there is cross reactivity and aberrant expression, so we now end up with ‘if immuno for X, Y, and Z is positive, and A and B stains are negative, then it’s tumour C. But if XY and Z are positive, and A amd B also positive, and D negative, then it’s tumour E’. It’s not a revolution at all, it’s a useful tool. But if you go back to those first papers, it’s very different from what we hoped.

        There’s very few ‘big ideas’ and paradigm shifts in medicine, just very slow incremental plodding. I realise how frustrating this can be for people seeking cures, but the fact is that we aren’t hiding the cure for cancer, or the way to everlasting life. And when there are big headlines saying the gene for disease X has been found, we are still many, many years away from that being actually useful from a patient treatment point of view. It’s unethical of doctors to promise cures where no cure exists, but that’s what some of the alternative therapy practitioners do, and for a scared and desperate patient, looking for answers, that’s very attractive.

        • space_upstairs

          Indeed, and progress is often 2 steps forward, one step back. For instance, in astrophysics at the end of the last century, we finally knew the cosmic geometry at the expens of going from not understanding 85% of the substance of the cosmos to not understanding 96% of it. Unfortunately, science history and jounalism make paradigm shifts sound far more common and easy than they really are.

        • MaineJen

          Ugh. Ask me about C4D staining…or better yet, don’t :/

          • mabelcruet

            There’s far too many CD stains-I lose track of them completely. Thankfully they aren’t going to be sacking pathologists imminently, immuno stains are a very strong diagnostic tool but have to be used carefully. In paediatrics, we have a group of malignant tumours that all look similar, so they are called small round blue cell tumours (ecause they all look like small round blue cells, obviously). There are some morphological differences in the cells and the background that help to identify the type, but because they have an embryological origin, there’s a lot of cross reactivity with the various stains, even those tumours that originate in wildly different tissues. We have a standard panel of stains that covers all the possibilities, but diagnosis is a combination of morphology and staining patterns. If we have a trainee with us, and I’m feeling really cruel I ask them to put the stains in order of preference based on morphology (like, imagine you only have the ability to do one single stain, so based on the morphology, which stain do you choose that will be the most helpful?) I don’t want them to rely completely on immuno because it can trip you up on occasion, especially in this age group.

            I wish the immuno was prettier though-its dull brown or blue. The old special histochemical stains were so much more colourful.

  • Who?

    Off topic but a fine example of laysplaining.

    I love makeup and skincare. Had a ‘free’ facial with a skincare company, which left me with an allergic reaction to the products and chemical burns on my face.

    Got that all medically treated (hydrocortisone cream to clear the swelling and damage under my eyes, antihistamines for the itching and burning, all kinds of lotions and unguents to heal, moisten and protect).

    Went back to the provider of the facial for a chat, told her I’d been to the doctor. She said that doctors (even dermatologists) aren’t really ‘trained in skin’ in the same deep and thorough way as her and her team, so it was a bit misguided of me to rely on their input rather than coming back to her.

    Then went on to suggest I spot-test some products. When I told her I recently put on their sunscreen and had to wash it off after 5 minutes due to itching and burning, she changed the subject.

    So take that, doctors!

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Have you considered reporting this company to your country’s regulatory agency? In the US (other countries vary), “supplements” and “natural” medicines aren’t regulated as closely as actual medications, but even there, a product that causes chemical burns sounds like something that should and could get shut down.

      • Daleth

        Good idea. Also, it sounds like the facial provider was trying to give you medical advice. Does she have a medical license? No? Well then, that’s against the law.

  • attitude devant

    My least favorite laysplaining is when people tell me doctors don’t study nutrition. Ummmmm…..yes we do, and who are you to tell me what I learned in medical school?

    • Sue

      Same. I tell them that I learned everything from the anatomy of the salivary glands to the physiology of gastric acid secretion, the metabolic pathways of all the macro and micro nutrients and the clinical deficiency and toxicity syndromes.

      What we don’t learn at medical school is dietetics – how to design an individual diet for a patient – because we collaborate with dietitians, who do their entire training on that. Just the same as we collaborate with physios rather than give our own physical therapy – but we do learn anatomy and clinical examination, and diagnose musculoskeletal conditions.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      My personal favorite is “They don’t teach anything about prevention/they only teach you how to treat the symptoms not the underlying disease in medical school” one. Because apparently smoking cessation, treatment of hypertension, aspirin, and cholesterol management don’t treat the underlying cause of heart disease, chemotherapy only treats the symptoms of cancer, and vaccines have nothing to do with preventing infectious disease.

  • space_upstairs

    Splaining usually refers to the more privileged claiming to know more than the less privileged, and I think misinformed laypeople are only equally privileged to trained professionals given that we are all of the aspirational class. But I know what you mean: the Dunning-Kruger is so strong in some people. I knew an engineer who tried to convince me that adopting his favorite crank physics hypotheses would revolutionize my field, and I was a sucker for the conspiracy that says there are forms of energy we don’t understand and perpetual motion machines are impossible. Some people, though no more privileged than we are, are so inflated by the privilege they have that they cannot admit to important limits to their knowledge or especially to limits to the very knowability of things. Shouldn’t we have those flying cars by now? They forget that Skype was sci-fi 50 years ago.

  • tracit

    Agree with everything except this: “Similarly, there is no possible way for a layperson — EVEN YOU — to fully understand the substance, utility and necessity of vaccination; most adults, being more mature and self-aware than second graders, understand that they have to accept the word of those with expertise in medicine, immunology and epidemiology.” There are plenty of laypeople that can and do understand this. And no one should blindly accept the word of experts on anything. It’s ok to question experts, but you have to be able to accept what they tell you when it is based on evidence and science. No one knows everything.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “There are plenty of laypeople that can and do understand this.”

      I would challenge you to find me a layperson who truly understands the biology behind vaccinations. I have never met anyone with less than a masters degree in immunology or a related field who comes even close.

      “And no one should blindly accept the word of experts on anything.”

      Really? I do on a regular basis. If the pilot says we have to deboard the plane due to weather, I accept his word. When the teacher tells me my daughter would benefit from a math tutor, I hire one. When Pete from the gas station tells me my car needs a repair, I get it done. When the lady who cuts my hair tells me a certain style won’t look good with my hair type, I believe her. No further explanation demanded. As a doctor, I am always glad to explain my reasoning behind any advice I give. I am consistently rated by patients as being an excellent communicator. But know this–the explanation I give is at best the cartoon version of the totality of what I know. Patients may think they “really understand” when they are done talking to me, but their sense of understanding is largely an illusion. How could they possibly understand the nuances of complex medical decision making?

      • tracit

        If, by truly understands, you mean the nitty gritty minutiae of the biology of vaccines, then sure. No one without years of education is going to get there. I took “fully understand the substance, utility and necessity of vaccination” to mean the ability to understand the general why and how of the biology of vaccines. Most people can and do understand that. And the next level of understanding is also within the reach of plenty of laypeople.

        And I don’t blindly accept the expertise of pilots, and neither, I think, do you. I have looked into the statistics and am well aware that flying is safer than driving. I also know enough about the functioning of modern airplanes to feel safe trusting my life to the pilots. That’s not blind acceptance. I’ve had enough life experience to make me suspicious of anyone who wants me to take their word for anything without explanation or questions. If a teacher tells me my child needs a tutor, I’m going to ask some questions before hiring a tutor. Ditto for the gas station guy and the lady who cuts my hair. None of that is blind acceptance. If you are willing to make those decisions without questions, you are a more trusting soul than I am.

        And given how stupid you apparently think all of your patients are, I’m glad you’re not my doctor, regardless of how excellent your communications are rated.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          I would argue that trying to understand the biology of vaccines in general is not something that the average lay person should spend a lot of time on, at least not past learning the basic concept of “give a weakened or dead antigen to teach the immune system how to deal with it”. Instead, I’d suggest learning more details of the specific vaccine you are considering whether to take or not. “Vaccine” is a generic word, much like “medicine” or “food”. There is a major difference between, say, the flu shot, the small pox vaccine, and the various experimental melanoma vaccines, even though they are all, technically, vaccines.

          • Daleth

            I would argue that trying to understand the biology of vaccines in general is not something that the average lay person should spend a lot of time on, at least not past learning the basic concept of “give a weakened or dead antigen to teach the immune system how to deal with it”.

            Here’s how I explained it to my preschoolers:

            “Your blood is full of tiny superheroes and whenever you get sick, that means tiny bad guys got in, and your superheroes are fighting to kick them out. When we take you to get shots, every new shot teaches your superheroes a new kung fu move to kick the bad guys out. They also learn new kung fu moves every time you get sick. The reason you guys get sick more than we do is because we already got all our shots and we got sick as kids just like you, so our superheroes know a lot more moves than yours do. But yours will catch up. Anyway that’s why you have to get shots.”

            I also taught them that when their superheroes kick the bad guys out, they sing, with gusto, the chorus to Queen’s “We Are the Champions.”

            It’s basically true, right? They understand it, they sing the Queen song when they’re sick, and they’re very stoic about getting their shots because they understand the purpose.

            And I agree with you — I don’t think most adults outside the healthcare field are going to understand vaccines any better than my kids already do. The adults will use different vocabulary and probably won’t sing the Queen song, but their understanding isn’t really any deeper.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            I am going to unashamedly steal quite a lot of this to help me in explaining shots to my kidlets. 😀 Thank you!

        • Sue

          I am also an experienced clinician who is considered to be a good communicator, and who sees it as my role to interpret and explain symptoms and signs on the basis of my understanding of how the body works. I have learned the clinical sciences in exquisite detail, and the explanation I give can never encompass all that detail.

          Like fiftyfifty, I don’t pretend to have the same understanding of the law, or aeronautical engineering, or motor mechanics – and the people I consult for these services understand that I will never equal their knowledge and understanding. I don’t feel offended by that judgement – I just don’t have their training or experience.

          So, your accusation of “given how stupid you apparently think all of your patients are, I’m glad you’re not my doctor, regardless of how excellent your communications are rated.” appears to be way off the mark.

          My motor mechanic doesn’t think I am stupid, but he does know that I don’t know enough to second-guess his expertise, no matter how smart I am.

          Expertise is not the same as intelligence.

          • Daleth

            Expertise is not the same as intelligence.

            That is a KEY point. I think a lot of antivaxxers and other anti-science or anti-intellectual types have a chip on their shoulder about their own intelligence, and they take any suggestion that they might not know enough to understand XYZ scientific subject as a personal attack.

            They like disagreeing with doctors because in their view, that means they’re smart. When we say, “That’s not your area of expertise” or “internet research is never going to teach you as much as med school” or “I’m not sure you know enough about immunology to have a valid opinion,” and they hear, “You’re not smart enough!” Hence the defensive, stubborn response.

          • tracit

            The last two sentences of the last paragraph struck me as extremely condescending. Yes, doctors have lots and lots of education that I and other non-doctors will never have. That does not in any way, shape or form mean that I (and other non-doctors) cannot understand “complex medical decision making.” There is a distinct tendency of people who consider themselves experts in anything to get the attitude that “regular” people just can’t understand their topic. And, while it’s true that “regular” people won’t likely ever reach the same level of expertise, it’s dangerous nonsense that “regular” people can’t understand it.

            I want to be very clear here. I am not an anti-vaxxer. I am not anti-science (I have a biology degree). I am, however, anti-the expert god complex.

          • fiftyfifty1

            It’s not a god complex, it’s reality. Even in closely related fields (like other subspecialties of medicine) I would be flying blind. It’s not that I’m stupid, it’s that there is just so much complex knowledge. And that knowledge is not just a bunch of “minor details” or “minutiae” as you call it above. Knowing that “lift” exists is not enough to keep a plane in the sky. Knowing that adjuvants exist is not enough to be able to argue their relative merits. The devil is absolutely in the details. In terms of medical decision making, I am no paternalist. Patients make the final decision based on their own complex lives and values. But their medical understanding is never complex. It is always simplistic (just as my understanding of any field other than my medical subspecialty is simplistic.)

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Funny, your comments struck me (and other physicians) as remarkably and inappropriately condescending to us!

          • Peaches

            I would agree with Amy. Your response is very defensive and seems to come from some experience with a physician that either intentionally or unintentionally insulted your intelligence. Try not to be so defensive and untrusting of physicians’ advice. It is not a personal affront to you. I am in anesthesia and I trust my specialist colleagues on their advice about their field of expertise, in most cases, without “checking up” on whether it fits with current research. I am never going to know what they are imparting to me for advice and knowledge of their treatment to the extent that they are after residency, fellowship and clinical experience has provided for them. Have a little faith in this system!

          • tracit

            My attitude comes from many experiences with experts of all stripes being mistaken on things they claimed to be much better at than I. I used to be a trial lawyer – there are a LOT of “experts” who are anything but. And “experts” are human – they make mistakes just like everyone else. In addition, my dad almost died twice due to mistakes by doctors who didn’t want to be questioned about their “expertise.” No one will ever get anywhere with me by saying I should accept what they are saying just because they are an expert. In fact, that statement will make me question their expertise more closely – it’s the only way for me to figure out if they actually know what they are talking about. Most people are capable of understanding a lot more than “experts” give them credit for. There is a peculiar blindness to the capabilities of outsiders that comes from studying and working in a particular field for a long time. It comes with the territory, and is one of the prices paid for gaining expertise in the first place.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How would you feel about a layperson told you how to litigate cases and declared that his reading on Google made him qualified to advise you since he “knew” you had only spent 30 minutes in law school on the principles of evidence?

          • tracit

            I never said anything like that. You are conflating me with the people you are upset with. I have been very consistent about my position. I distrust anyone who says that I should blindly trust them because they are experts, for very good reasons. And I think most people with expertise in any one area are blinded to varying extents to the capabilities of those outside their profession. I never had any problem discussing legal questions with my clients, as I never thought I knew everything. It was their life and the consequences of the choices we made would fall on them – they had every right to ask me questions until they understood what the situation was. I saw us as a team, not as an expert and a lackey.

          • Peaches

            By all means, question experts when their advice seems not to fit the situation. I feel sorry for you because you have not the insight into the fact that you are soured by these experiences of yours. To question all experts is a hard way to live life…

            Have a little faith that we are not all the same!

            Please stand back and look at part of the reason these experts are this way… It is not to make you look bad but because we are human and make mistakes, it is a matter of survival, of a way to do our job. If we were wishy-washy when we gave advice or said it with any lack of confidence, do you think we would be effective at our job. Do you think we could continue to function after a mistake or a bad outcome? whether it was our fault or not? Whatever you do (biology, lawyer?) you could not function effectively being questioned continuously… This job is demanding enough!

          • Daleth

            I used to be a trial lawyer – there are a LOT of “experts” who are anything but

            I am a trial lawyer and if you’re talking about expert witnesses, I know exactly what you mean — but that’s a whole different ball game. An expert witness certainly does have greater-than-layperson knowledge about the subject matter in question, but they’re paid to support the argument of the litigant who hired them.

            They’re absolutely not being paid, the way a treating physician is, to provide as-objective-as-possible medical advice based on the patient’s condition and the latest research. If vaccine-injury cases were tried the way most civil cases are, an antivaxxer could fly in some hippie MD to testify as an expert that vaccines caused her kid to become autistic. That quack would be an expert witness, but I don’t think it’s what any of us are talking about here when we say “expert.”

            I just want to be sure we’re all on the same page when we use the word “expert.” The standard for qualification as an expert witness under Rule 702 is not nearly as high as what most of us, speaking plain English, have in mind when we say “expert.” And the role of an expert witness is to be biased in favor of the litigant who hired them. So could we leave expert witnesses out of the discussion, in order to make sure we’re all talking about pretty much the same thing when we say “expert”?

          • Griffin

            “I am, however, anti-the expert god complex.” While I can only speak for myself, I’ve been on this site for 6 years: I suspect NO ONE here supports unquestioning belief in experts. There is a reason this site is called The SKEPTICAL Ob.

            You earlier said a PP was not seeing the wood for the trees, but in fact it is you who misses the forest here. You do not see that Dr Tuteur and we commentators have been struggling for years with how to approach the anti-vax/ free-birth/ attachment parenting people respectfully but in a way that improves the outcomes of the ones who cannot speak in this story. Namely, the children, and the underinformed/ misled/ lied-to women who are dragged into bizarre birth/ child-raising cults that harm them while others profit from their misery.

            It’s not easy. You should read more on this site before assuming single statements represent the whole.

          • Griffin

            “I am, however, anti-the expert god complex.” While I can only speak for myself, I’ve been on this site for 6 years: I suspect NO ONE here supports unquestioning belief in experts. There is a reason this site is called The SKEPTICAL Ob.

            You earlier said a PP was not seeing the wood for the trees, but in fact it is you who misses the forest here. You do not see that Dr Tuteur and we commentators have been struggling for years with how to approach the anti-vax/ free-birth/ attachment parenting people respectfully but in a way that improves the outcomes of the ones who cannot speak in this story. Namely, the children, and the underinformed/ misled/ lied-to women who are dragged into bizarre birth/ child-raising cults that harm them while others profit from their misery.

            It’s not easy. You should read more on this site before assuming single statements represent the whole.

        • Sarah

          Out of interest, how does not blindly accepting the expertise of pilots look in the situation fiftyfifty mentioned, ie the pilot saying it’s not safe to fly due to weather?

          • tracit

            And we have the winner of the “missing the forest for the trees” award. Still, I’m going to answer, if only to avoid being accused of dodging. First, it’s a crappy example of blindly taking an expert’s word for something. Even if I disagreed with the pilot, it’s not like I could do anything about the situation, so I really have little choice in the matter. Second, I generally follow the weather in my departure and arrival locations when traveling, so I’m already aware that there’s an issue before the pilots say anything. If I’m not sure about it, I ask questions. Again, not blindly taking any expert’s word on anything.

          • Sarah

            How interesting that it only became a crappy example when someone asked a question you found inconvenient.

          • tracit

            It was always a crappy example. That’s why I mostly skipped over it the first time. Hence, the “forest and the trees.”

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I agree that “trust me I’m a doctor (or lawyer or engineer or CEO)” is not a good argument. And the point of science is that anyone can do it: the data don’t care who you are. However, it takes a lot of time and effort to learn immunology, medicine, and epidemiology. So, yeah, question, but be aware that there is a lot of data back there that it’s going to be difficult to understand completely unless you are willing to invest a lot of time and effort into learning it.

      • tracit

        I agree, but the original post only said “fully understand the substance, utility and necessity of vaccination,” not “fully understand every minor detail of the immunology, epidemiology and biology” of vaccines. I think the former is well within the reach of many, if not most, people. I have a degree in general biology and I feel that I have a good understanding of the former. Do I understand every detail of how every individual vaccine was developed, works, doesn’t work, etc.? No. But that’s not what the OP said, and it’s not what I was responding to.