Let’s punish men for abortions!

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Apparently many conservatives believe that women should be punished for having abortions. I have a better, more just, more effective suggestion:

Punish men for abortions!

[pullquote align=”right” cite=”” link=”” color=”” class=”” size=””]Given their deep commitment to ending abortion, anti-choice politicians should welcome the plan to punish men with imprisonment and fines.[/pullquote]

After all, it’s the man’s fault; there’s no way a woman can find herself with an unwanted pregnancy without a man being responsible for it.

Christina Cauterucci at Slate wrote about the anti-choice beliefs of Trump supporters.

In an online survey, 39 percent of 2,000 self-identified Donald Trump voters reported that they thought women should be punished for seeking abortions if the procedure is ever banned in the U.S. A full 60 percent of those polled said abortion should be illegal; 18 percent of all the poll’s Trump voters said it should be illegal without exceptions for rape, incest, or to save a pregnant woman’s life…

Anti-choicers are enraptured with the notion of punishment for abortion:

Anti-choice legislators pass laws requiring women to listen to state-sponsored misinformation and wait days between requesting an abortion and getting one, revealing a fundamental mistrust of women’s capacity to make their own decisions. Laws in many states make women travel to clinics more than 100 miles away for multiple appointments, separated by days, costing them unnecessary time and money. Restrictions on when women can get abortions force some women to carry to term fetuses with no chance of surviving outside the womb. Women are charged with felonies and incarcerated in the U.S. for trying to induce abortions on their own.

But that’s so inefficient!! Why punish a woman for an unwanted pregnancy when she didn’t want it in the first place? It makes so much more sense to punish the man who made it happen.

Think of the advantages:

It is far simpler: All it takes is a simple paternity test on the products of conception. Quick! Easy! Painless!

It is foolproof: Let’s face it, there are lots of things that women can do to avoid being punished for having an abortion. The biggest problem with state abortion restrictions — requiring unnecessary ultrasounds, forcing women to listen to lies about abortion, or mandating two clinic visits instead of one — is that they can be evaded if a woman travels to another state. But if all she has to do is name the father and bring back the products of conception for testing, we can punish the appropriate man every time!

It is true justice: Women don’t create unwanted pregnancies; men do. Punishing women for having abortions is like punishing women for getting stabbed. Ethics demands that we punish the man who did the stabbing not the victim, right? By the same reasoning, ethics demands that we punish the man who caused the unwanted pregnancy, not the woman who is, in truth, the victim of the unbridled sexual appetites of a man.

It will be much more effective: Women who get pregnant through rape or incest can’t avoid getting pregnant, but the men who commit those crimes could certainly avoid them if they chose. How better to prevent rape and incest in particular, and unwanted pregnancies in general, than holding the perpetrators to account?

How would we punish the men we identify in this way?

A long prison term is the obvious choice, at least ten years at minimum!

On their way to prison they should be forced to walk a public gauntlet of abortion protesters and be subjected to vicious criticism. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Beyond that, their names should be published so that everyone they know should witness their shame; a large fine in on release from prison wouldn’t be remiss, either!

I know it sounds harsh, but if we are really committed to ending unwanted pregnancies that result in abortion, this would go a long way toward making men take responsibility for their irresponsible behavior.

To kick off the campaign, I suggest that all male anti-choice politicians, publicly confess to any abortions they have been responsible for in the past and submit their DNA to be used in the event that they cause future unwanted pregnancies.

Anti-choice male politicians should publicly acknowledge their part in unwanted pregnancies (if any), serve the prison time and pay the fines, setting an edifying example in the process.

Given their profound commitment to ending abortion, anti-choice politicians should greet the plan to punish men for abortions with unrestrained enthusiasm.

Of course, if they reject such a plan we’ll be left to conclude that anti-choice politicians don’t want to prevent abortions; they just want to punish women for having sex.

  • Ayr

    I don’t know about the laws in other states, but the one here in GA makes exceptions of rape, incest, danger to the mother’s life, and an infant that is so seriously disfigured it cannot not survive outside the womb. It also punishes the doctors who perform the abortions outside these parameters, not the woman. If a woman miscarries or the baby dies in the womb or is still born there is no punishment involved as long as the woman does not intentionally miscarry or do something that will knowingly endanger the child and kill it. Other states have much more strict laws and I do not know the ins and outs of them, but from what I understand GA’s is one of the least strict.

  • Elizabeth

    This is a very well-written and extremely reasonable argument and I agree entirely.

  • rational thinker

    I thought this was perfect for this post. An example that we need to stop teaching abstinence only in schools and we need to start teaching them about having safe sex and using protection. when kids are not educated about sex they believe stupid crap about sex other kids tell them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0UZPm20BOw

  • Casper

    It’s not a question of punishing after the fact. It’s a question of preventing conception, and how does the dad step up after conception.

  • Stanley Hoffmann

    The Author is obviously a very sad and dark hearted person with a very limit scope of experience and IQ.

    • Elizabeth

      This is a very intelligent lady who has made an excellent point.

  • blueefficacy

    A man is responsible for the unwanted pregnancy.

    That’s modern feminism in a nutshell: Give women agency when it’s convenient, remove it when it isn’t.

    Of course, abortion is 100% the woman’s choice, so let’s punish the man. Especially in the cases where he would have saved his child’s life and raised it on his own, if he could have! That will show those toxic men.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Whine, whine, whine!

    • Daleth

      A man is responsible for the unwanted pregnancy.

      Well, he just is. The man is ALWAYS responsible for an unwanted pregnancy. The woman is often, but not always, responsible (if she was raped, obviously she’s not). He had agency; he chose to have sex (or to rape someone), knowing it could result in pregnancy.

      Do you really think he ever should NOT be responsible? Even though he had agency and freely chose to have sex or to rape?

      abortion is 100% the woman’s choice, so let’s punish the man

      Look, he’s either on the hook for 18 years of child support (or more — it’s not uncommon for child support orders to include college tuition), or he’s on the hook for causing a woman to need an abortion. Which do you prefer? Because it sounds to me like you’re thinking for some weird reason, he should get off scot free.

      • blueefficacy

        An abortion, where it’s legal, lets a woman off scot free. My point is men have no such option anywhere.

        • PeggySue

          Ohfergodsake, of course they do, they simply disappear and unless the woman has the money to pursue them, that’s it: no paternity test, no child support, no nothing. Do you honestly think that for every pregnant woman there is a man in the background ready and willing to step up to the responsibility for having sex?

        • Daleth

          No such option? Do you even realize that it’s only in the last 40-50 years that divorced men have been pretty consistently required to pay child support, and only much more recently that men who fathered children with girlfriends and mistresses were?

          Take a moment to do the math and compare 40-50 years to the entire length of human history.

          And then re-read the phrase “pretty consistently.” There are still plenty of men who just up and disappear, and others who purposely work under the table so their wages can’t be garnished even when the mother does know exactly where they are.

          But back to the point. What “option” do you think men should have? Should they have the legal power to force a woman to get an abortion she doesn’t want? Are you fucking kidding me?

        • Cristina B

          What, exactly, are you whining about? The fact he has no choice in that pregnancy? He can *choose* to have a baby with someone who wants to be pregnant.

        • Azuran

          You seem to be forgetting that if the woman gets an abortion, BOTH her and the man are off ‘scot free’ not just the woman.
          So either they are both free or they both have responsibility toward the baby they created.

          Sure, it would be very nice to live in a world where pregnancy requires both party to actively want a baby. But that’s not how biology works. Although not perfect, the current system is basically as close to equality as it is possible to get.

  • The sad medical reality is that early termination is far safer than pregnancy. Pregnancy kills, especially if you are non-white.

    • blueefficacy

      Biology is raysis!

      • PeggySue

        Spell check is your friend. So is reality.

  • Christopher Harper

    I am a Christian, though I am having a crisis of faith. I am anti-abortion (in certain cases, like using it as a form of birth control) but I live in REALITY and know that not everything is simply “black or white”. There are even various shades of gray. This is what those “holier than thou” Americhristians cannot or REFUSE to UNDERSTAND! They are so “pro-life” yet support the death penalty! I am NOT a “liberal” or a “CONservative” but IMHO it’s the CONservatives who are the biggest HYPOCRITES! They claim they want a smaller gov and more INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, right? Then in that same breath want to pass a law giving a woman the DEATH PENALTY if she has an ABORTION (which is her RIGHT, INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM and all of that) They are modern day Pharisees! They don’t care about PEOPLE, they care about POWER and LEGALISM! Final tip, if you REALLY want to piss one off ask them about the GENOCIDE and INFANTICIDE God either DIRECTLY or by PROXY committed in the OT! LOL! They’ll turn into the Grinch when he was thinking up a LIE to tell Little Cindy Lou Who, who was no more than two, as he stole the Christmas tree and gifts! ROFL!

    • MaineJen

      Firstly, I doubt that abortion is anyone’s first line of birth control. (Too expensive, at the very least). Usually it’s a result of birth control failing. Regardless, it’s none of anyone’s business.

      Secondly…I don’t think anyone is expecting these extreme laws to stand the way they are. These laws are designed to be outrageous, and to be challenged all the way up to the supreme court. Now that Kegstand Kavanaugh tips the balance of the court more conservative, there is a chance that Roe v Wade could be partially or completely overturned. That is the ultimate goal.

      And abortion will ALWAYS be available to the daughters and mistresses of the ultra wealthy politicians who are pushing these laws. Because stopping abortions ISN’T WHAT THEY’RE REALLY TRYING TO DO. They’re trying to control and oppress women, full stop.

      • Christopher Harper

        If you say so:

        https://www.liveaction.org/news/writer-says-she-used-several-abortions-as-her-form-of-birth-control-because-actual-birth-control-made-her-sick/

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1238612/Girls-using-abortion-birth-control.html

        Girls using abortion as birth control and having up to FOUR terminations by the age of 18

        https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/02/abortion-as-birth-control/459960/

        Many of these women were Russian emigres who used abortion as a form of birth control.

        https://groundedparents.com/2015/02/05/foiling-fallacies-women-who-use-abortion-as-birth-control/

        Abortion is birth control. Expensive, invasive birth control, but birth control, nonetheless. I am 100% pro-choice. No exceptions. If a woman chooses to terminate every unplanned pregnancy she experiences, I support her. Even if she chooses to not use other forms of contraception or abstinence in order to prevent pregnancy. Even if she has lots of unprotected sex. Even if she should “know better” or should “be more responsible.” Terminating an unwanted pregnancy IS responsible

        Yep. You’re right. I just made all of this up. Didn’t bother reading the rest of what you posted. I PERSONALLY know FIVE women in NYC who have had SEVENTEEN ONE-SEVEN ABORTIONS between them! How? I used to work in a clinic in Queens as a medical assistant. So please, continue to tell me what you ASSUME. I will tell you what I KNOW as a FACT!

        • MaineJen

          Well if you’re against abortion as a Christian, you must be 100% in favor of free and easy access to contraception and comprehensive sex education in schools. Because that’s how you prevent unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions.

          Although, I must say, from the way you talk, your problem seems to be not so much abortions, as the women with the temerity to HAVE abortions.

          • Christopher Harper

            No, I think you’ve misunderstood what I mean. But, FIRSTLY, I want to APOLOGIZE for my rudeness. Sincerely. I am a Christian, yes, but I am a Christian with a serious crisis of faith. I do not condone abortion as birth control. Even in the case of rape I’d rather the child be given up for adoption…BUT, that’s NOT the real world. Most women don’t want ANYTHING to remind them that they have been violated. The choices we make MEN and WOMEN are between us and our God (if we believe). I’d love to have more sex ed as well as contraceptives. Some are really harsh like Depro. But it all comes down to a woman’s choice. It doesn’t matter what I say, what you or any political party says… If abortion is made illegal we will be set back 150 years. A lot of back alley bleed outs. Nobody wants that. I’m neither liberal or conservative, personally I’m sick of politics because they all say the same things. Again, please forgive my rudeness…peace

          • rational thinker

            Nobody uses abortion as birth control. Its expensive and not really something women want to do multiple times.

          • Alia

            In modern US that’s probably true. But in former Soviet block countries back in the 1970s and 1980 it was true. Contraception for women was hard to get and not very good, men did not want to use condoms, you do the math.

            In fact, when my mum came to the OB to confirm her pregnancy with me, the OBs first question was “you want me to set up your pregnancy records or an abortion?” She was then in her late 30s and most women her age did not want any more children.
            Now in Poland the tables have turned, abortion is illegal apart from few exceptions (foetus unable to survive, mother’s life and health or rape) and even then it’s hard to get. Thankfully, our neighbours in Slovakia and Germany have different laws and employ Polish-speaking staff in their clinics near the borders (that was sarcasm, just in case.)

          • FormerPhysicist

            Ok, I still can’t believe that any sane woman would want to use abortion as primary birth control. While I’m sure there are women in the US who have had “excessive” numbers of abortions, I still doubt that they are setting out to not use other methods of birth control and just preferring to have abortions. And if they are, I declare them not sane and in need of serious mental health counseling (despite the problems of a tautological definition).

          • Alia

            I agree with you. I’m only saying that in some countries in some eras abortion _was_ treated as primary birth control because – paradoxically – it was the easiest to get (in communist Poland it was available free of charge without much hassle, the same goes for Soviet Russia).

          • FormerPhysicist

            I completely agree with you, and am not disputing facts about the former Soviet Union and iron bloc countries. And not judging any women who did anything. But this thread started with someone complaining that now, currently, in the US, in NY, women are willfully using abortion as primary birth control. I doubt his conclusions about their desires, and should he be correct that there exist 5 women in the US that use abortion as primary birth control, I doubt those 5 women are mentally sound.

          • Inmara

            I can attest to what Alia wrote – in former Soviet Union abortion indeed was used as a form of birth control due to lack of other options. My mom has had several of them, and at that time the procedure was not very safe, so she miscarried one wanted pregnancy at 6 months later. Probably in some parts of modern Russia a reliable birth control is still not that accessible and women resort to unsafe sex (pulling out etc.), resulting in higher than average abortion numbers. Meanwhile in Baltic countries number of abortions has steadily declined since 1990s and now is a fraction of former amount.

          • AnnaPDE

            It’s less a question of “want” and more a “have another option”. Just like Inmara and Alia’s mums, my grandma had multiple abortions in the early 50s in Hungary. And just like with Inmara’s mum, one of these procedures made it really hard for her to stay pregnant when she and my grandpa finally had the means to bring up a child.

            Contraception was basically unavailable at the time because the birth rate was supposed to grow by government decree. The pull-out and rhythm methods don’t exactly work, so lots of women got pregnant in a situation when they weren’t able and willing to bring up kids: Not enough housing, lack of schools, general insecurity regarding how long this “peace” thing will work out… the demand for abortion was massive, and while it was technically banned, it was still more readily available than before-the-fact contraception.
            Not exactly wonderful for anyone.

          • rational thinker

            There was one disgusting trashy girl I knew who had 3 kids (all were eventually were removed from her custody) and she got pregnant every other month. Abortion was money she did not want to spend so anytime she got pregnant she would go in a hot tub for a long time so she would miscarry. She eventually got the youngest kid back then he was removed from her custody the same day for drunk driving with him in the car. She got him back for a total of 12 hours.

          • rational thinker

            Yes I did mean modern US, sorry I should have specified.

            Does anyone know about how women could get or did get an abortion in Ireland in the past 90 or so years?

            Families would often send girls that were even suspected (without evidence) of having sex to work in the Magdaline laundries which was probably worse than prison. Secretly having an abortion would possibly be a way to avoid being sent to a Magdaline laundry.

          • Cristina

            “I do not condone…”
            “I would rather…”

            You spelled “I support women’s choices” wrong.

          • LaMont

            Unfortunately, there is indeed a perfectly coherent religious argument against both abortion *and* contraception, because either way you’re preventing the incarnation of a soul that should have existed as a result of that sex act. God plans for all of those people to exist, planning your pregnancies is always a contravention of His plan. I hate this idea that Christianity just *has to has to has to* be good. It doesn’t. There are tremendous harms here.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Did you read your own links? The Atlantic link had a couple of people accusing others of using abortion as birth control, without any specific verification. As for the Daily Mail link, a child has four abortions, presumably due to at least statutory rape and the ONLY problem you see with it is that she’s had “too many” abortions?

        • Heidi

          Seventeen one seven abortions between five women! Why were you being such a fucking creep that you randomly chose five women to work out the number of abortions they had altogether?. That’s fucking weird of you, and that’s all we need to know about you.

        • Daleth

          You may know some numbers as a fact, but you’re still making assumptions. If a woman has three abortions, does that mean she’s “using abortion as birth control” (i.e. not using birth control and just aborting every time she gets pregnant)?

          Or does it mean she’s in an abusive relationship and her boyfriend/husband sabotages her birth control (hides her pills, refuses to wear a condom, and/or rapes her)?

          Or does it mean she’s as fertile as most young women are (remember, back in pre-birth control days, having 10-20+ pregnancies in a lifetime was normal for women), and as sexually active as many young women are, so when her birth control fails, she gets pregnant? Remember that depending on the method, birth control fails between 1% and 15% of the time. And that’s when you use it CORRECTLY without fail.

          Or does it mean she has medical or financial obstacles that prevent her from using hormonal birth control, so she relies on men to wear condoms, and sometimes they refuse? Or she’s been raped — more than once, even (I know several women who’ve been raped multiple times)?

          Before you answer, please tell me how you know. Because you don’t; you’re assuming.

        • Daleth

          PS: Think about the links you’ve posted. The Atlantic one is just a quote from a woman who expressed her belief that when she was sitting in the waiting room before her medically necessary abortions, some of the other women waiting there “were Russian emigres who used abortion as a form of birth control.”

          How the hell would she know? She doesn’t even say she ever spoke with them, and in the conversations she overheard, they just “discussed their nails, their hair, and other trite subjects as though it was just another day.” (Was she really expecting women to bare their souls in a doctor’s waiting room, for all the assembled strangers to listen in?).

          She didn’t know anything about these women. She was just assuming, as you were, Christopher.

          The Daily Mail article also makes the same assumption you did: that if a woman has multiple abortions, it must mean she’s not even trying to prevent pregnancy with birth control. And frankly that article was even worse than your post, since it was talking about teenagers, who have a lot more trouble getting birth control than adults do — sometimes their parents forbid it, they often can’t even afford condoms, and honestly, sometimes the reason they keep getting pregnant is because dad or stepdad or mom’s boyfriend keeps raping them.

          You have no idea what is motivating these women. Please stop projecting your assumptions on them.

          • rational thinker

            I completely agree that if a teen has already had 3 or 4 abortions before she is 18 then there may be sexual abuse/rape going on and inflicted on her by a close family member.

        • rational thinker

          None of these links are reliable evidence to support your assumptions. I would suggest that you always research things for yourself in things like science and medical journals. Also just because people post something on face book does not mean it is fact even if they themselves really believe it to be true and sadly these days not everything in a news paper is true either. Most of the people who spread bullshit on face book or twitter or in opinion sections of newspapers have a degree from google university and so they are never a reliable source.

          Always check to be sure any information is actual fact and not just very bias personal belief before spreading it.before spreading it.

          • Christopher Harper

            These are EXAMPLES only. That’s all. They are just examples to show that yes, SOME women do have abortions as a form of birth control. As far as real life, working in Queens at South Jamaica Medical as a young medical assistant back in the mid 1990’s I saw FIRST hand women get referrals to abortion clinics. I knew how many abortions some had because I had access to their charts. For some reason this seems extremely DIFFICULT for some people responding. Perhaps they could come out of their bubble and see that the world is not black or white. There are even various shades of gray.

          • Heidi

            So yes, we get it, you were going through medical records to find women who had abortions, decided to pick 5 women who had multiple abortions and count them as some “example.” That’s not how it works. Again, that’s creepy and inappropriate. You weren’t looking through their charts out of sincere concern that maybe they were being raped by a family member or possibly were being trafficked or exploited.

          • momofone

            Creepy, inappropriate, and if I’m not mistaken, criminal, if you had no reason to look in their charts?

          • Heidi

            I am clueless about the rules in the 90s but I know it’s a HIPAA violation now.

          • Christopher Harper

            Again…EXAMPLES…ONLY

          • momofone

            Faulty examples, as rational thinker explained.

  • Cat

    I was just wondering if anyone can suggest ways in which I can help support abortion rights in the US? I’m UK-based and already donate to a couple of local charities which support reproductive rights, but I’ve been horrified reading the news the last couple of weeks and wish I could do something to help out, however insignificant.

    • mabelcruet

      Northern Ireland currently has the same sort of restricted access to terminations that has been passed in US states. Women here can only get a termination legally if their physical health is at risk. Mental health doesn’t count (in theory it does, but the law requires a woman to be examined by 2 perinatal psychiatrists in order to determine if her mental and psychological well being is going to be harmed by continuing the pregnancy, and we don’t have two perinatal psychiatrists in the region, so it’s a de facto ban). You can’t get a termination on the grounds of sexual assault, incest, or fetal abnormalities. If you can afford to pay, then you can go to England/Scotland and have the termination there in a private facility. You have to pay all costs, travel, accommodation etc, so it’s £2000 or so generally-because it’s illegal here, the regulations currently don’t allow public money to be used to pay for women to access one elsewhere . If you don’t have that sort of money, then you have to have the baby. Our laws here are already exactly the sort of dystopian hand maids tale level of misogynistic and religious fanaticism that is causing some much revulsion in Alabama.

      The Abortion Support Network is always looking for volunteers. This is a charity which helps women access termination of pregnancy-as well as donations, they are looking for people who might consider hosting a woman from Northern Ireland when she comes over-if you live close to a regional airport and a suitable clinic, they need women who can provide a room for the night, a supportive shoulder, even just picking her up at the airport and taking her to the clinic will reduce her costs. It’s sadly a very necessary charity. Having seen the problems and issues here first hand, if these laws are enacted in Alabama and elsewhere, that’s going to create so much misery and hate.

      • rational thinker

        In the US before there was roe v wade I know a lot of women had died or completely lost their fertility from having illegal “back alley” abortions. Or they were using wire coat hangers on themselves to end the unwanted pregnancy. Is that also something that some Irish women have had to resort to because termination is so restricted? I know Thailand has had problems due to illegal abortions also.

        • mabelcruet

          Banning abortions won’t stop them, it will only stop medically safe and regulated abortions.

    • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

      Any of these organizations could use your help –

      https://yellowhammerfund.org/ provides funding for anyone seeking care at one of Alabama’s three abortion clinics and will help with other barriers to access (travel, lodging, etc.).

      https://abortionfunds.org/about/ – This is a national network that will help you connect with a local abortion assistance organizations that can help with financial, travel and other aid to people seeking an abortion.

      Also:

      The Clinic Vest Project provides free clinic escort vests to groups that service facilities that support the full range of reproductive health options including safe and legal abortion.

      ARC Southeast helps Southerners and their families navigate the pathways to access safe, compassionate, and affordable reproductive care by providing financial and logistical support and building power in our communities through advocacy, education, and leadership development.

  • Russell Jones

    Well, yeah, but men have a God-given right to stick their Johnsons wherever they goddamn jolly well please, and to do so 100% consequence-free. Brings back memories of decades gone by, when dumbass MRAs and proto-MGTOWs were demanding that the courts create a “Roe v. Wade for men.” Since women can opt out of an unwanted pregnancy via abortion, men must be allowed to opt out of paying child support. This result, our intrepid dumbasses argued, was mandatory per the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The “argument” got exactly the treatment you’d expect it to get in the courts.

    Anyhoo, the two SCOTUS justices Trump appointed — Gorsuch and the rapey alcoholic manbaby — are fellow travelers with Thomas in rejecting totally the legal theory on which Roe and its progeny are based. What the constitutional right to privacy will look like in the not-too-distant future depends on what John Roberts and Samuel Alito want it to look like. That’s kinda terrifying.

    But hey, rich dudes will always be able to get safe abortions for their daughters, wives and mistresses, whether through concierge rich folk doctors who are generally above scrutiny or by sending their daughters, wives and mistresses on “vacations” to civilized countries.

    • blueefficacy

      Makes sense to me. Women are immune to consequences for careless sex insofar as they are willing to kill. Why can’t men be too? I’ve never heard a convincing argument as to why a man should be forced to pay a woman for a child he doesn’t want, when a woman can simply kill a child SHE doesn’t want.

      • Daleth

        Why can’t men be too?

        Because it’s not their body. Pregnancy does not happen in their bodies, it happens in women’s bodies.

        The right we’re talking about here is the right to control your own body.

        The right to abortion is not about any supposed “right to kill a fetus just because it’s genetically yours.” That right doesn’t exist. An infertile woman using a surrogate doesn’t have the right to force the surrogate to have an abortion; she’s in the exact same situation that a man usually is in the abortion debate.

        The only reason anyone has the right to choose abortion (or not choose it) is because the pregnancy is happening inside their own body.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Women are immune to consequences for careless sex

        How is getting pregnant then going through an abortion “immune to the consequences”? These ARE the consequences of “careless sex.”

        Meanwhile, what consequences does the guy face? Oh, I’m sure it is just tearing him up, isn’t it?

        There isn’t a single scenario involving unwanted pregnancy where the woman doesn’t have massively more to deal with than the guy. Oh, the poor guy has to pay child support for 18 years! Meanwhile, he can just send a check. The woman is responsible for raising the child.

        If he didn’t want a child, he should have used birth control. A vasectomy is really effective, having a lower failure rate than a condom. Moreover, a vas allows for all the pleasure, without all the “taking a shower in a raincoat” complaints (I’m speaking from experience, btw).

      • Russell Jones

        Makes sense to me.

        lol

        I have no doubt of that. The “Roe v. Wade for men” thing has always had powerful appeal to the vacuous mgtow mindset.

        immune to consequences for careless sex

        lol

        Come on, chief. No one is as dumb as you’re pretending to be here.

        I’ve never heard a convincing argument . . .

        Sure you have. You simply didn’t understand the arguments and/or placed them on your personal pay-no-mind list.

  • Who?

    My father-in-law didn’t approve of ‘unwed mothers’, though he never seemed greatly concerned with unwed fathers.

    Once on a forum where people were complaining about said ‘unwed mothers’ I suggested that if a man had children with (say) three or more women without being married to any of those women, and the children were being supported by the state, the man should be ‘eligible’ (ahem) for a free vasectomy.

    Oh the rage that ensued. Turns out that contraception is a woman’s issue in those circles.

  • There’s a simpler way to end abortion in states like Alabama and Missouri: all males in those states should be forced to have vasectomies. No pregnancies, no abortions.

    • Cristina B

      Sperm banking can be done in advance and then reversals won’t be necessary.

    • LaMont

      Unfortunately, this comes from a purely religious place – every sperm/egg combo that could result from sex already has a soul. Contraception is murder on a grand scale in this schematic. It’s “It’s a Wonderful Life” for all those people who were never born because of contraception – an even greater tragedy than abortion.

      • KQ Not Signed In

        I’d generally burst into a chorus of “Every Sperm is Sacred” from Monty Python, but every time I try to speak lately flames shoot out of my mouth and my eyes turn black and i start to hover a few inches above the ground and I have to lie down for a while until the rage passes.

        • mabelcruet

          Channeling ‘Legally Blonde’…

          Any masturbatory emission that ends with ejaculation into a tissue/sock/warm apple pie is technically reckless abandonment of potential children. So masturbation for men needs to be banned to protect all those poor unwanted sperm.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I saw an (old) Twitter thread resurrected a couple of days ago where it is argued that essentially all unwanted pregnancies are the man’s fault. Things like, men need to be responsible for birth control because they are fertile 100% of the time, whereas women are fertile only 10% of the time or so, yet men are the ones who whine about using condoms because of the small reduction of pleasure (like, it’s an 7 – 8 on the pleasure scale, instead of 10 (which, imo, is an understatement)). Or they won’t even use a withdrawel methods, which isn’t as effective but is better than not.

            It’s a whole discussion of how unwanted pregnancies are the man’s fault, and, as such, they need to be held responsible for preventing them. Preemptive vasectomies, for example.

            ETA: Full disclosure – I’ve had the vas.

          • Cristina

            The number of men I’ve encountered who don’t want to use condoms, yet don’t want more children, is appalling. Vasectomies, in their minds, might as well equal castration. As a single mom who definitely doesn’t want more kids and can’t afford 4-6 weeks of recovery time from getting my own tubes tied, I stay the fuck away from those men. I support abortion and would definitely get one if needed, but I’d rather just avoid future pregnancies.

          • PeggySue

            Good choice. If they’re that irresponsible about sex, chances are they’re that irresponsible about lots of things.

          • FormerPhysicist

            I was in a social media argument with one who claimed his ex-GF was a murderer because of an abortion. But he never used a condom. Claimed he was not at fault because she lied about birth control. I rather doubt the account. I believe women lie about birth control, even women in long-term relationships. But not women who don’t want children and would abort. Even if true, men are capable of taking charge of their own fertility – abstinence, condoms and vasectomies.

          • fiftyfifty1

            This reminds me of a guy I went to medical school with–a conservative Christian. His argument was that we needed strong anti-abortion laws to protect women from controlling boyfriends who would pressure them into sex, impregnate them, then pressure them into abortions they didn’t choose. How could he be so sure? Because he had done exactly that to his own girlfriend in high school!

          • PeggySue

            Ohfergodsake. How about a strong anti-abortion law that forces the father to pay 18 years of child support? I know, I know, but still… These guys, I cannot even…

          • Elizabeth

            Classic “Christian” creep.

          • rational thinker

            I had a talk with my son and my nephew when they were 15 and sixteen about how to use condoms. I did not have a banana so I used a broom and showed them how to put one on.

            In my high school years I did know a few girls who used to poke holes in condoms hoping to get pregnant I dont think any of them were successful but they easily could have been. So I told them always bring your own condom because some girls may try this, most girls wont but dont take any chances. Then I told them where the condoms are and to take one whenever you think you may need one.

            Lets face it teens are going to have sex even if you tell them not to so at least educate them about safe sex.
            I think society has always given a pass to men probably cause they are not the ones that have to carry the baby. We need to start teaching them while they are young that both people are responsible not just the girl.

            I have always told them both parties are responsible for the outcome of unsafe sex so if you dont have protection dont do it.

          • KQ Not Signed In

            Honestly, we’ve taught our son the concept of contraception and safe sex right along with everything else about his body – he’s eight and he knows that contraception means “only making a baby on purpose, never making a baby by accident.”

            There is no reason NOT to teach children the basic concept of contraception right along with all the basic “facts of life.” You literally don’t have to explain anything beyond that when they’re young, but it’s in the foundation of their sex education.

            We handle consent the exact same way – you never touch someone else without their permission and you stop if they says to.

          • MaineJen

            I haven’t discussed contraception specifically with my kids, but I’ve made sure they know that the person who will be carrying the pregnancy gets to decide if she wants to have a baby.

          • rational thinker

            That guy needs to realize any birth control has a small failure rate and nothing is !00% effective. My niece’s father was concieved while his mom was taking the pill, and I know a woman that got pregnant after having her tubes tied. Abstinence is the only 100% way not to get pregnant.

          • Not even then. Rape is a sadly common thing.

          • PeggySue

            And, in the strictest religious constructions, it is banned. Masturbation is considered a sin.

          • rational thinker

            I had a friend that had a history of miscarriage but she did have 4 kids but one of them died at a couple weeks old from skin to skin. Anyway when youngest was 6 months she found herself pregnant again. She said she was not really worried about it cause she said she would end up losing the pregnancy anyway (which did happen). But the thing was she was scared to tell her husband she was pregnant cause he would get mad. I asked if they used any protection she said “oh no we are catholic so he wont use anything and he says its bad to use any birth control.” So yeah he wont use anything and wont allow her to use birth control but when she gets pregnant he gets mad at her. That makes a lot of sense, I just cant wrap my mind around that one.