What kind of monsters cheer on a woman who breaks her baby’s arm?

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Imagine for a moment that a new mother has been warned repeatedly not to leave her baby on the bed unattended.

Her “intuition” tells her that the naysayers are wrong and she leaves her baby unattended on the bed, but when she returns to the room she notices that her baby is rolling off the side. She grabs the baby by the arm, preventing the fall to the floor, but breaking the baby’s arm in the process. It takes weeks to heal and the baby is in considerable pain during that time.

[pullquote align=”right” cite=”” link=”” color=”” class=”” size=””]What kind of “God” thinks it’s okay to break a few baby bones so a mother can have the birth of her dreams?[/pullquote]

What would you think if the mother congratulated herself for “proving” that leaving a baby unattended is safe? You’d be disgusted, right?

What would you think if she considered the baby’s broken arm a trivial side effect of her otherwise excellent decision? You’d be horrified, right?

How about if she posted her story to a Facebook group and everyone praised her. You’d think those other women were monsters, right?

But that’s precisely what happened on the Facebook page for Birth Without Fear … except that the mother didn’t ignore advice about leaving her baby unattended on a bed; she ignored medical advice about breech birth.

He was in the worst possible breech position he could be in and I just couldn’t grasp how my beautiful home water birth that I planned and prepared for, for months, was inevitably probably not going to happen. A water birth, after all, was the entire reason we chose to birth this way.

My husband supported me quite well, but felt confused as to why I was so adamant about avoiding going to the hospital for c-section. It would be quick and both of us would be ok and safe. For me, it wasn’t JUST about the c-section though. It was a big part at first, but that wasn’t all. All the hard work he put into paying for me to have the home birth I wanted for our last child, all the planning, the high hopes, the excitement, the peaceful serenity I desired, all being dashed in an instant.

She consulted her midwife:

She had talked with another midwife friend of hers for advice and that sweet midwife encouraged her to remember that “Birth Works.” We talked more about how she still hadn’t heard from God about trying for breech. And how there had been easier breech birth situations arise and she didn’t feel right about it, resulting in the mama transferring to the hospital. But that wasn’t the case with me and Elias. She kept hearing yes. And the encouragement she received from her midwife friend is something I am also forever grateful for. Glory!

What a coincidence! She wanted to have a breech homebirth and “God” told her midwife it would be okay.

She had the vaginal birth that she wanted:

… With his heart rate where it was, there was no waiting. She had to retrieve his other leg, then both arms because they were up by his face. Once that was done I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and I pushed. It was so different than my other deliveries because it was just his head I was pushing. Totally different. I started running out of energy because I had no break really since everything started only 30 minutes or so prior. There wasn’t time to wane though. I was dripping sweat. Trying to focus but I had so many things running through my head. I KNEW I had to hurry up but couldn’t figure out why it was taking so long… Finally, though……

He was out.

But he wasn’t breathing. No problem!

Midwife had to breathe for him, remember not uncommon for breech … As I watched this precious woman who was trembling, breathing for my baby-lifeless and laying there a purple color, I prayed. My husband prayed. We spoke to Elias to breathe. It seemed longer than it actually was. We trusted. Scared but trusted we had heard from the Lord about everything we decided to do, so we fully expected life in our child. Strong, smart, healthy and whole..

He started breathing eventually, but he wasn’t exactly whole:

…Turns out his clavicle was broken as well as a fracture of the humerus in his left arm during delivery. How awesome is it, that we actually discussed this BEFORE labor started!? Not even two hours prior to him being born! He was in some pain but is doing great now and completely healed at 3 weeks old.

So her child suffered the agony of not one, but TWO BROKEN BONES. And she thinks it’s awesome that they discussed the possibility and went ahead anyway?

This monster of a mother wasn’t the least bit sorry for her decision. In her mind it was a success!

I still can’t believe I did it. And couldn’t have done it without my midwife. A wonderful woman who takes the time pray and really listen to Him and His will for the births she attends for her clients. I won’t ever be able to tell her enough how much I appreciate it. Nor how much I feel like I owe her for helping me succeed!

What kind of “God” thinks it’s okay to break a few baby bones so a mother can have the birth of her dreams? No God that I recognize from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

And what kind of monsters encourage a mother in these hateful delusions? The monsters who are fans of Birth Without Fear. Of course once they found out that I had sharmed it on my Facebook page, they deleted all mention of the story on the Facebook page and blog. Turns out that perhaps they weren’t so proud of her after all.

Here’s what I wonder:

What if the trade-off had been that in order to avoid a C-section the MOTHER would have to endure the midwife breaking HER clavicle and HER arm without anesthesia and without pain relief in the weeks that followed?

Who wants to bet that the mother would have opted for the C-section to spare herself the pain that she was happy to let her newborn baby endure?

264 Responses to “What kind of monsters cheer on a woman who breaks her baby’s arm?”

  1. October 5, 2016 at 7:20 pm #

    Wow, that’s a lot of “I, I, me, I, me, me, I.” Do you think she’ll keep the baby even though she’s already done with him?

    • ellie
      October 5, 2016 at 11:56 pm #

      Yes, because now she needs to show how awesome she is by breastfeeding and babywearing. The ultimate accessory for the narcissistic wannabe mom!

  2. Heidi_storage
    October 5, 2016 at 1:18 pm #

    I used to think that I would want a vaginal birth if I had a breech baby. Not anymore; the absolute risk of death is low (though larger than the risk from a cesarean delivery), but stuff like hypoxia and broken bones just isn’t worth it.

    I am NOT surprised that the birth seems to be more important than the baby, by the way; that whole web site is…interesting. I agree with the other posters that God doesn’t want us needlessly endangering our babies, especially since I think children are blessings from Him.

    • Laura Thompson
      October 6, 2016 at 8:28 pm #

      I had a vaginal birth with my second baby, who was breech. The birth itself wasn’t horrible, but afterwards, I had some nasty complications. First of all, I was cut from front to back and then stitched up, and sent home from the hospital with no pain relief. The first time I tried to go to the bathroom, it took an hour, and I screamed in pain. Secondly, it messed me up. I wasn’t stitched properly, and had incontinence issues at night for eleven years, until I had my third baby, and my OB told me I’d basically been butchered. He repaired the damage, and I’ve had no problems since, but that was an embarrassing eleven years. Needlessly stressful, as it turns out.

      I so wish I’d had a C section. Never would a mom who’d had one be sent home without pain relief, (and I was young and dumb and just so ready to get on with life that I didn’t know to ask.) My incision was deep and serious. I’d not have had eleven years of not wanting to sleep over my boyfriend’s house because I never knew when I’d wet the bed. (Thankfully, it never happened except when I was alone.) The biggest issue is that it probably wasn’t totally safe for my baby. I’ve never met anyone who’s been allowed to deliver a breech baby naturally.

      • Heidi_storage
        October 7, 2016 at 10:07 am #

        That’s awful. I’m sorry you had such a terrible experience.

      • sdsures
        October 11, 2016 at 1:42 pm #

        How is it legal to send you home with no pain relief??

      • sdsures
        October 11, 2016 at 1:43 pm #

        “I’ve never met anyone who’s been allowed to deliver a breech baby naturally.”

        Neither have I, but I have read about it in fiction books.

      • sdsures
        October 11, 2016 at 1:45 pm #

        “My incision was deep and serious. I’d not have had eleven years of not wanting to sleep over my boyfriend’s house because I never knew when I’d wet the bed.”

        I’m sorry your boyfriend wasn’t more understanding about it; it’s not your fault! I sometimes sleep on a towel and wear a pad when my incontinence kicks up (no kids yet). There is medication if it is caused by bladder spasms (ditropan), but I don’t know if there is medication for helping it when it’s caused by childbirth.

  3. Anna
    October 5, 2016 at 11:35 am #

    “What if the trade-off had been that in order to avoid a C-section the MOTHER would have to endure the midwife breaking HER clavicle and HER arm without anesthesia and without pain relief in the weeks that followed?

    Who wants to bet that the mother would have opted for the C-section to spare herself the pain that she was happy to let her newborn baby endure?”

    I was in this situation when I was told of the risk of fracturing my pelvic bones if I opted vaginal delivery. Well, much as I disliked the idea of a c-section I wasn’t willing to take SUCH risk. And my mom broke her leg recently and it’s NOT fun. A baby being born has softer bones but I believe still DOES endure severe pain if bone breaks. Wouldn’t any normal mother want to spare her child that? Will she look back on the event that left her child traumatized with joy (even if all resolved well in the end)? Rhetorical question.

    • Roadstergal
      October 5, 2016 at 12:12 pm #

      A co-worker’s wife faced the same options as you did, and went for the vaginal delivery. She broke some bones in her pelvis and was unable to stand for a long time afterwards, and had to use a walker for about half a year. The recovery was insane, and insanely stressful. But hey, at least she went ‘natural’!

      She’s bought very strongly into the woo. : My poor co-worker hasn’t.

      • Heidi
        October 5, 2016 at 12:34 pm #

        That’s absolutely awful! I can’t even imagine the pain, but I also can’t imagine having to recover from that with a newborn.

      • Sean Jungian
        October 5, 2016 at 2:29 pm #

        Wow, that is just…wow.

      • Daleth
        October 6, 2016 at 9:53 am #

        Call me crazy, but I like civilization. Give me a civilized childbirth any day.

        • Maud Pie
          October 6, 2016 at 11:08 am #

          When I consider the amazing progress of the human race–scientific and technological advances that exponentially improve safety, health and comfort; systems of law and government that replace “might is right” with protected rights for the meek and weak; arts and leisure–it just boggles my mind that anyone can romanticize the primitive. Of course I know the world is far from perfect, but the flaws don’t arise from these advantages: they arise because these advantages are not shared universally. The answer is more civilization, not less. The conundrum of our age is that privileged persons reject the benefits of civilization and yet see themselves as SJWs fighting for a better world.

    • guest
      October 5, 2016 at 1:34 pm #

      The way my kids cried when the nurses did heel sticks, I don’t see how anyone can think neonates don’t feel pain from injury.

  4. Roadstergal
    October 5, 2016 at 10:57 am #

    “I want to share feeding responsibilities with my partner, and I really find breastfeeding uncomfortable, so I am going to feed my baby a safe substance that is nearly identical to ideal breastmilk” – shit mom.

    “I don’t want to have a C-section, so I’m going to starve my baby’s brain of oxygen and break a few of its bones” – warrior mom.

    Yeah, I don’t get it, either.

  5. Sullivan ThePoop
    October 5, 2016 at 10:27 am #

    I wonder if these women who birth their breech babies at home in these stunt births bother to treat the hip dysplasia they probably have

    • Sarah
      October 5, 2016 at 1:20 pm #

      Obviously yes, by breastfeeding.

      • Roadstergal
        October 5, 2016 at 1:33 pm #

        I don’t know why I have a mental image of the ice cream salesman from Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai yelling in French that breastmilk is really good for you, full of calcium, he heard it on the radio…

        • guest
          October 5, 2016 at 8:54 pm #

          I know why, it’s because Raymond is awesome.

          Also, later in the movie when Raymond hears revised advice on how milk isn’t so good for you after all because of the sugar, he does’t go into denial mode. He tells people what the latest findings are.

          • Roadstergal
            October 6, 2016 at 10:47 am #

            You’re totally right! He literally broadcasts his correction to the community…

  6. MaineJen
    October 5, 2016 at 9:53 am #

    What part does she think was awesome, exactly? The part where her baby’s head got stuck? The part where he broke 2 bones? The part where she was relying on her midwife’s consultation not with a doctor, but with her imaginary friend?

    Or is it the part where she got to say “Nya nya, the doctors told me this was dangerous, we even discussed the risks, but I did it anyway! And look, nobody died!” Is that the part that’s awesome?

  7. N
    October 5, 2016 at 4:56 am #

    My first baby was breech and around here no doctor is willing to let woman birth vaginally with a first breech baby. So C-section it was. As my second baby would net get down during labor, it was a second C-section. Yeah, for some time I was sad about not having given birth the “right” way. But… what? Broken bones? Midwife had to breath for baby? WHAT? No, I think I’m happy with my C-sections.

    I have friends that had their second breech babies vaginally. But in a hospital! With the Operation team ready if needed. And they had somewhat ideal positions for breech vaginal delivery. Never would they have given birth vaginally with a breech baby in a funny breech position.

    But than again, if a couple of broken bones and a baby that doesn’t breath immediately are normal, could I have had my VHBA2C in a pool with that 3rd baby lying in a diagonal position? Hey, the midwife could have broken some bones of the baby to get it out. With a bit of skele gro (or breastmilk?) would that not have been fixed instantly?

  8. Brooke
    October 5, 2016 at 12:12 am #

    What kind of fucked up person takes pride in getting someone’s birth story removed from the internet. Like oh, congratulations you’re the birth bully and this woman is probably worried about being charged with medical neglect, getting doxed etc. Not to mention that this is a NORMAL thing that can happen during birth, she didn’t intentionally break her child’s bones, where as doctor’s DO intentionally break the clavicle bone in cases of shoulder dystocia.

    • Heidi
      October 5, 2016 at 12:24 am #

      Lololol, don’t post your birth story on the internet then?

      • Sarah
        October 5, 2016 at 2:00 am #

        Plus, you know, this lady’s birth story hasn’t actually been removed from the internet at all. Quite the opposite. It’s been shared with a considerably wider audience. I do believe that’s her problem, actually.

        • corblimeybot
          October 5, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

          It’s interesting that Brooke thinks the pertinent issue is that the woman’s birth story was taken off the internet. (Like you pointed out, that’s the opposite of what happened. – but bear with me here.)

          To Brooke, the tragedy is not the child’s needlessly broken bones. The tragedy is not the horrible mother’s selfishness. The tragedy is that mom can’t put her birth story on the internet. Brooke thinks it’s a basic human right to have your birth story online, I guess – and for no one to question a crazy birth narrative.

          • Sean Jungian
            October 5, 2016 at 6:59 pm #

            To put an even finer point on it, the tragedy is that mom can’t put her birth story on the internet and receive nothing but enthusiastic and loving praise.

      • Sue
        October 6, 2016 at 5:00 am #

        What? Is “not posting your birth story” an actual thing? Who knew?

    • Nick Sanders
      October 5, 2016 at 12:26 am #

      What kind of fucked up person takes pride in ignoring advice that could have saved their child avoidable suffering?

    • Melaniexxxx
      October 5, 2016 at 1:42 am #

      Yeah those damn doctors should totally leave babies in situ in SD’s to die and rot until it falls out huh Brooke? anything but a clavicle break or even WORSE a ceaser! Gangrenous decomposing corpses coming out naturally like in the old days is far preferable.

      • kilda
        October 5, 2016 at 9:08 am #

        it’s just lotus birth taken to the next step.

    • Sarah
      October 5, 2016 at 1:58 am #

      What kind of fucked up person thinks the birth bully in this story isn’t the person who delighted in a child’s broken bones?

    • AnnaPDE
      October 5, 2016 at 2:36 am #

      Brooke, please go and jump out of a first floor window next time instead of taking the unnatural stairs. Oh, you’d rather not because you might break some bones and that’d hurt? Who cares, that’s normal!

    • Who?
      October 5, 2016 at 5:10 am #

      So, it would be appropriate for her to worry about being charged, but not about the suffering she wantonly inflicted? ‘Normal’ does not equal ‘good’.

    • MI Dawn
      October 5, 2016 at 7:53 am #

      Oh Brooke. F. O. A.D.I.A.F. This mother was TOLD IN ADVANCE that there was a high potential for broken bones due to the footling breech position. What kind of HORRIBLE MOTHER would choose her precious water birth over the safety and welfare of her BABY? Not any kind of mother I know, or would want to know.

      And NO. This is NOT a “NORMAL” thing. I saw hundreds of births – c-sections and vaginal – in my years of working. I very rarely saw a broken bone…in fact, I can’t think of more than maybe 2, even WITH a shoulder dystocia. Breaking the clavicle is nearly the LAST resort to resolve a SD, not the first. A lot more “was a bone broken” xrays that were negative for any fracture after a traumatic birth. Contrary to your inane belief, it’s not THAT easy to break a baby’s bone during a birth.

      You know nothing, though you drop in here and blather frequently. Look up Dunning-Kruger – your picture is next to the definition!

    • corblimeybot
      October 5, 2016 at 9:56 am #

      Bite me, Brooke. My kid had a shoulder dystocia injury in the hospital, and people like you are always DYYYYYING to tell me it’s because of hospital birth and evil doctors.

      But when some sociopath like this woman is forewarned about a preventable complication like this, and decides to break her kid’s body anyway? Because she’s worried about her experience? Then it’s DIFFERENT. It’s NATURAL. SHE IS A MOMMY WARRIOR.

      You know what has never happened among any friend of mine whose had a shoulder dystocia? Broken baby clavicles. Not even my homebirthing friends came out of shoulder dystocia with their child’s clavicles broken. If you think that deliberate clavicle fracture is a routine way to resolve shoulder dystocia, that says a lot about the crowd you run with.

      • BeatriceC
        October 6, 2016 at 12:06 pm #

        My oldest had a SD and wound up with a dislocated shoulder and a brachial plexus injury that haunts him to this day. He’s 17. There was no reason to think this would happen. It was my first near-term delivery (36 weeks, the twins came out vaginally but at only 18 weeks), and they thought he was going to be smaller than he was, and I’m not a small person, even when I’m skinny. All signs pointed to a complication free birth. The signs were wrong. Unfortunately, the nurses didn’t alert the doctor to a problem soon enough, but the doctor was a true rock star and resolved the problem in short order, even though there were several complications with the baby.

    • MaineJen
      October 5, 2016 at 9:56 am #

      That’s what you take away from this, Brooke? Not that this mom and her midwife did an incredibly f’ed-up thing, risked this baby’s life….but that we’re talking about it? That’s what has you upset, that we’re discussing it?

    • Roadstergal
      October 5, 2016 at 12:18 pm #

      Everyone has covered most of the BS pretty well already, but I just want to revisit:

      “Not to mention that this is a NORMAL thing that can happen during birth”

      It’s not normal for this to happen during the course of what was recommended to the mom – a C-section. Hypoxia and broken bones are pretty negligible to zero risks at a prelabor term C-section on a healthy baby.

      Has a clavicle _ever_ been broken in the course of a C-section?

    • demodocus
      October 5, 2016 at 3:00 pm #

      How uncommon does something in your world have to be to no longer be “normal”. Well besides the percentage needing to formula feed,

    • corblimeybot
      October 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm #

      This is Brooke, right? This seems like the thoughtful and sensitive discourse we’ve come to expect from her. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c620a2b29edc082e957ab99d808f0d5056d2e2e6331ecc2237c364be7b8c8cf8.jpg

      • Roadstergal
        October 5, 2016 at 4:53 pm #

        I’d expect nothing less. Is ‘too early’ 4 months? 6 months? 1 year? 8 years? 12 years?

        Also, of course, if the drinking water is contaminated with lead, so is the breastmilk. Mom isn’t a HEPA filter.

        • Daleth
          October 5, 2016 at 5:53 pm #

          Mom isn’t a HEPA filter, but a HEPA filter is. For $22 or so you can get a Brita filter that attaches to your faucet and removes lead. (The pitcher filters don’t remove it but the faucet filters do.) Problem solved… was that too easy for Brooke to consider?

          • Azuran
            October 5, 2016 at 5:56 pm #

            Because really, lead in the water is only a concern for formula fed babies. It’s not a problem for toddlers or other kids, or even breastfeeding or pregnant women or just normal adults. Nor is it a problem to bathe your newborn into lead contaminated water.
            Let’s not try and fix the water, just breastfeed.

          • October 5, 2016 at 7:07 pm #

            Not to mention that:

            Fed is best does not exclude breastfed being better. If the option is ‘breast fed or starved’ then obviously ‘fed is best = breast is best’.

            Not sure why you need 12 different kinds of formula though but by the same token if the option is ‘formula fed or starved’ then obviously ‘fed is best = formula fed is best’.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            October 5, 2016 at 10:26 pm #

            Actually it does. Best means that nothing else is better.

          • October 6, 2016 at 1:51 am #

            Mmmm….perhaps a better rephrasing is that fed is best does not exclude breastfed being better than formula if circumstances mean that its breast or starvation.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            October 6, 2016 at 9:22 am #

            No, fed is best.

          • N
            October 6, 2016 at 10:33 am #

            Breast is best implies that breastfeeding is superior to formula feeding and perfect. So lactivists would say: if breastfeeding is superior a lot of people will be happy with good enough/formula fed, as not everyone can or wants to reach perfection. Some lactivists that I know would say: lets rephrase breast is best to breast is normal. (AND as we see in Brookes comments normal=natural=good)

            So what about fed is normal? Also because the alternative to fed would be… not fed, which would not only be a bit inferior to fed, but catastrophic?

          • Roadstergal
            October 6, 2016 at 10:51 am #

            Really, what it comes down to is ‘feed your kid.’ But feeding has turned into a competitive sport, from EBF to only ‘organic’ home-made ‘superfoods’ for the older kids, and trying to de-fang all of that messaging means we need a pithy slogan like ‘fed is best’.

          • October 6, 2016 at 1:06 pm #


          • Roadstergal
            October 6, 2016 at 1:19 pm #

            But then you have to say that formula is best if mom isn’t making enough milk/good enough quality milk/doesn’t want to BF/needs sleep/etc. I agree with Dr T, fed is best, and the best method of ‘fed’ is up to individual circumstances and does not lend itself to a pithy slogan.

            Not having access to clean water and formula these days is a problem in and of itself that goes beyond infant feeding.

          • October 6, 2016 at 1:21 pm #

            Yes? Not something I disagree with.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks
            October 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm #

            Different babies react differently to different formulas. I use the generic versions. DD did very well indeed on Similac, so I never tried another brand (well, generic version of a brand, but you get the idea). DS, on the other hand, got horrendously constipated on Similac’s generic, but is doing brilliantly on Enfamil’s generic.

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2016 at 9:20 am #

            MIL says DH seemed happier with soy formula. Didn’t know they even made soy formula in 1976
            ETA his kid is fine with whatever basic variety we give her. She’s not too sure about that tiny bit of peanut butter i just put on her tongue.

          • Azuran
            October 6, 2016 at 10:56 am #

            Except that breast is not best.

            Lactivist are basing their ‘breast is best’ on a very biased view of the benefits of breastfeeding. In which they only look at the exaggerated benefits of breastfeeding and the ‘negative’ effect of formula. But they omit the benefits of formula and the negative effect of breastfeeding.

            How many mastitis are worth a baby avoiding a cold? How many untreated PPD are worth ‘better bonding’. How many babies re-hospitalized with icterus and possibly facing brain damage are worth the hypothetical few IQ points breastmilk may or may not give? How much are you losing in unpaid pumping breaks compared to the cost of formula?

            I was allergic to breastmilk, it landed me in the hospital twice because my skin was literally falling off. How many avoided baby diarrhea is that worth?

            For me, breast was death. And my mom still got shamed for formula feeding me.

            What is best will be different for everyone. It depends on a lot of factors which includes physical and
            mental health of both babies and mothers as well as socioeconomic
            status, personal preferences and a lot of other factors.
            It is up to
            every mother and even parents to decide what is best for them depending
            on their own unique situation. And the parents should be respected and
            supported in whatever ends up being best for them.

          • Roadstergal
            October 5, 2016 at 6:13 pm #

            Hey, look. People who did more for moms and babies than Brooke could ever dream of.


          • swbarnes2
            October 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm #

            Planned Parenthood was giving out filters. The LLL page for Michigan had zippo, except an article about how breastfeeding with contaminated water is okay. So you can tell who really cares about the health of families, and it’s not the LLL.

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2016 at 9:17 am #

            i had one for a while, and it made the cheapo faucet split along the seam. oy

      • moto_librarian
        October 5, 2016 at 5:11 pm #

        Almost certainly. But we already knew that she was a colossal asshole.

      • Sarah
        October 6, 2016 at 3:05 am #

        Is fed still best if it doesn’t come from a crowdfunded vegan truck?

      • Heidi
        October 6, 2016 at 5:57 am #

        But potatoes are a good source of iron, Brooke! And toddlers are supposed to drink regular milk, and breast milk is low in iron.

    • ellie
      October 5, 2016 at 6:10 pm #

      Good. Bitch doesn’t deserve to be called a mother when she chose to break her baby’s bones. Like hell she didn’t purposely do it. She was bragging that she had talked about it happening and it did, like it was awesome to torture and main her newborn.

    • October 5, 2016 at 7:27 pm #

      But she did intentionally increase the risk of injury to the performance prop, er, her precious baby, by failing to provide for competent assistance. She wasn’t concerned with whether he was injured, maimed, or killed (or drowned, if she had gone ahead with a water birth). She was exclusively concerned with the self-indulgent ritual. The way these people talk about birth, I wonder if they even bother to keep the baby instead of just paying the midwife to get rid of it for them.

    • momofone
      October 5, 2016 at 11:46 pm #

      Hi, Brooke. Still waiting on those citations! 🙂

    • Sue
      October 6, 2016 at 4:58 am #

      I was waiting for the “Brooke” post and 3….2…1…Boom – there she is!

      A few swear words, a bit of UPPER CASE, some misinformation and errors, some abuse. Quite the full Brooke Bingo, right there.

      • Stephanie Rotherham
        October 6, 2016 at 9:15 am #

        Drinking game?

        • MI Dawn
          October 6, 2016 at 12:31 pm #

          Heck no! It would murder our livers and we’d never be sober.

    • Lion
      October 7, 2016 at 7:59 am #

      Precisely because it is a normal thing that can happen is what the problem is – most sane people do something to avoid their tiny little newborn baby having to go through something like that if the risks can be foreseen, which by stating they’re a normal part of such a birth you are admitting you know they can be foreseen.

      Life over limb – the bones get intentionally broken in cases of shoulder dystocia so that baby doesn’t suffer brain damage or death from lack of oxygen. In this case, the entire breaking of bones could have been avoided. If shoulder dystocia could be foreseen, then a c-section would also be recommended for the same reason.

      Can you even hear yourself here?

      • Lion
        October 7, 2016 at 8:04 am #

        And do bones actually get intentionally broken like that when there may be better methods to employ. I am an EMS volunteer in a third world country, and yes, if in a very rural area and far from a hospital and such a complication arose, then this would be done, but I wonder if hospitals actually do this?

        • Daleth
          October 7, 2016 at 9:53 am #

          I wonder if hospitals actually do this?

          If there’s no other way to get the baby out in time to prevent brain damage or death, then yes, they do it.

  9. Amy
    October 4, 2016 at 11:15 pm #

    That poor baby. Those pictures she posted (I sleuth like a BOSS) show his arm and clavicle malpositioned. Was not having a c-section REALLY worth breaking your baby’s bones? Put it the other way……if the only way you could avoid a c-section would be to knowingly break your baby’s bones, would you do it?

    And jeez, I’ve had two c-sections– they’re not THAT bad. Certainly not worth breaking my kids’ bones.

    • Erin
      October 5, 2016 at 7:58 am #

      What got me (just read her “deleted” post – someone should probably explain to her how the internet works) was this:

      “If things had changed before I could process it, I think my mental state and post partum depression would have been raging immediately. Especially if I ended up in csection. ”

      Baby being hurt = fine, her being hurt = PPD.

      I know we’re all different and I hate judging people but that’s mixed up. I didn’t hurt my son during his delivery, but the guilt I felt from the possibility almost killed me.

      • kilda
        October 5, 2016 at 9:07 am #

        yeah, thank goodness nothing BAD happened that might lead her to have PPD.

      • demodocus
        October 5, 2016 at 4:19 pm #

        Jeez, boy being hurt probably kicked me off on this depression that pregnancy only exaserbated.

      • Daleth
        October 6, 2016 at 9:56 am #

        Baby being hurt = fine, her being hurt = PPD.

        You hit the fucking nail on the head. That is exactly what’s wrong with her: caring a whole lot about herself but not much about her baby.

    • Kelly
      October 5, 2016 at 12:56 pm #

      Has she even taken that poor baby to the doctor to set his arm? That poor thing. I just can’t with these people. I would feel awful if I had caused that kind of pain to my child.

      • guest
        October 5, 2016 at 1:16 pm #

        I was deep in the woo with my first and had a vaginal breech birth (in the hospital, but still stupid). He was bruised and very unhappy the first few days. 5 years later, I still feel like crap for doing that to him and can’t believe it never occurred to me that even if everything went right during the delivery, he would still be in pain (duh). I regretted not having the C-section immediately after he was born and felt like a total #shitmom for doing that to him.

        • moto_librarian
          October 6, 2016 at 10:05 am #

          But you did have him in the hospital. And that’s far better than what this woman did.

          • Roadstergal
            October 6, 2016 at 10:53 am #

            And she learned from what happened rather than celebrating it. That’s tough to do, to look back and say ‘I was wrong,’ and I greatly appreciate anyone who can do that.

        • Kelly
          October 6, 2016 at 12:49 pm #

          At least you had enough common sense to realize what you had done right after the birth. It did not take broken bones or HIE to make you change your mind. Also, learning from your mistakes makes you a good mom.

      • Sue
        October 6, 2016 at 5:01 am #

        Maybe she consulted Modern Alternative Woomeister first.

  10. Madtowngirl
    October 4, 2016 at 10:27 pm #

    Jesus tap dancing Christ.

    I’ve said before on here that I believe in God. But for goodness’ sake, do you really think God cares about how your baby is born? And if you’re a creationist who believes God directly created people….don’t you think that means God gave human brains the ability become doctors who develop safe methods for delivering a baby?!?!?! Do you really think God would be cool with you putting your child in such danger?

    ARGH this mentality frustrates me so much.

    • shay simmons
      October 4, 2016 at 10:34 pm #

      I know. Is there no one in this horrible woman’s immediate circle to drop-kick her AND her husband into the middle of next month?

      However — she did say it was going to be their last. Small mercies.

    • kilda
      October 5, 2016 at 9:05 am #

      there are people who think God cares who wins football games, that’s just the mental process of some people. I once had a roommate who believed God had arranged for us to get a coffeemaker (because her aunt had one she didn’t need, so thus God provided it for us). It was thoughtful of Him although apparently he didn’t realize I don’t much like coffee.

    • Kelly
      October 5, 2016 at 12:58 pm #

      It drives me insane as well. I am religious but think that God helped all the scientists and doctors to learn about ways to help us. I hate those people who just think that because they prayed about it, it will all work out without them doing a single thing. He is not freakin Santa Claus.

    • corblimeybot
      October 5, 2016 at 1:13 pm #

      It really bugs me that some people use religion as their personal excuse for being idiots. I am not religious, but my family has many members who are clergy. None of them reject medical science because of the idea that “God will fix it”.

  11. An Actual Attorney
    October 4, 2016 at 9:32 pm #

    A few months ago, after religious school, my son asked what if G-d tells him to do one thing but his mothers tell him to do something else. After considering, I said that if G-d is really telling him to do something, he should follow G-d. BUT, if he really thinks he actually hears the voice of G-d, let me know and we’d get him to someone with prescribing powers. This woman could have used that.

    • CSN0116
      October 4, 2016 at 9:39 pm #

      The questions my Catholic school kids ask about God… lol

  12. Shellybones
    October 4, 2016 at 8:53 pm #

    Please explain to me who “all these women” are, first of all. Why does every comment say that this mother broke her child’s clavicle? I have seen many NVD born with shoulder dystocia having a clavicle fracture. I am apalled that all of you would say that these mothers broke their child ‘s arm!!! Do you hear what you are saying?????

    • Azuran
      October 4, 2016 at 9:05 pm #

      The child was breech. The fractures were caused either because of his positioning or secondary to the manipulation of the midwife to speed up the birth because the baby’s distress.
      It is a known possible complication of this type of birth. And the mother, having been properly informed of this potential risk, still decided to go through with her home birth because her experience was more important than the possible extreme pain it could (and did) put her baby thought.
      Indeed they can have clavicle fracture following shoulder dystocia…..which is ALSO a birth complication that OBs are doing their best to prevent. It’s never ‘normal’ to have a fracture. It means something went wrong. If, for example, your OB told you your baby was big, and recommended a c-section, which you refuse. And then your baby has shoulder dystocia and his clavicle is broken in the process. Than yes, you are responsible for that fracture.

      All these women would be those who posted on the birth group supporting this mother. As of who they are, we can’t now because they deleted the post. (although I have a suspicion that you are one of them, since you just parachuted in to defend this woman)

    • Isilzha
      October 4, 2016 at 9:27 pm #

      Well, she did break it, didn’t she? She could have decided on doing something different which would NOT have resulted in her baby breaking two bone, but she was selfish and would rather her kid suffer the pain of broken bones AND suffocation rather than lose out on her “perfect” home birth.

    • CSN0116
      October 4, 2016 at 9:28 pm #

      Midwife warned that a broken arm was a strong potential if mom proceeded with a vaginal birth.

      Mom proceeded with a vaginal birth regardless.

      Baby’s arm (and clavicle) was broken (and baby was born not breathing).

      A caused B.

      Mom chose A thus causing B.

      Easy peasy.

    • Charybdis
      October 4, 2016 at 9:36 pm #

      Yes, we hear what we are saying. It doesn’t change the fact that this mother, knowing that her child was breech, and a footling breech at that, was bound and determined to have HER TREASURED WATERBIRTH AT HOME. She blatantly ignored the recommendation to have a CS and her midwife indulged her in that insanity. This mother, with forethought and planning, caused her child to have both a broken arm and a broken clavicle from a footling breech delivery, a delivery that has a higher than average chance of head entrapment and nuchal arms. This situation leads to breaking the baby’s clavicle as well as it’s humerus to extract the baby. Not to mention the fact that the baby is hypoxic because of the compression of the umbilical cord.

      In a normal vaginal delivery (I use normal to mean a baby in the head down position and not macrosomic), there is always a chance of shoulder dystocia. It can happen with small babies as well as large babies, first time mothers as well as multips. It cannot be predicted and the resolution can involve breaking the baby’s clavicle. The key point here, is that shoulder dystocia is unpredictable.

      This woman, who knew her baby was in the footling breech position, ignored recommendations to opt for a CS to insure the safety of the baby. SHE WANTED HER HOME WATERBIRTH AT THE COST OF HER BABY’S HEALTH AND SAFETY. She KNEW that her baby was going to have a rough time, due to his positioning. Then, with this foreknowledge and forethought, she recklessly embarked on HER “birth journey”. She had wanted, planned for and wheedled her husband into a home waterbirth and by God, she was going to get it, come hell or high water. Or broken baby bones. She did not find herself in a shoulder dystocia setting, suddenly in a normal vaginal delivery. Therefore, she gets no “free pass”, no “these things happen in hospitals too”, no sympathy and certainly no “atta girl’s” or praise for her willful ignorance. None.

      • CSN0116
        October 4, 2016 at 9:38 pm #


      • Amy
        October 4, 2016 at 11:03 pm #

        Exactly. This situation does NOT happen in a hospital, because in a hospital she would have a c-section for footling breech, period.

        And a midwife in the hospital acting as this one did would find herself unemployed.

    • ellie
      October 4, 2016 at 9:41 pm #

      I certainly do. Selfish witch broke her child’s arm. It’s the truth. Instead of putting her baby first, she decided to only think about herself and have a homebirth, and the first thing she did was abuse her child, with the husband and midwife as accessories.

      These women are arrogant, disgusting people who don’t deserve to be called mothers. Their birth experience comes before the child’s safety and health and they even cheer each other on when the baby ends up dead. But at least they got their unassisted VBAC homebirth after 3 C-Sections, amirite?

      I really wish DCFS would go after these people. If they care this much more about themselves and getting their 15 minutes of fame, who knows what they are doing to their children.

    • Linden
      October 5, 2016 at 9:19 am #

      This woman was told her stunt birth would probably cause a fracture, among other things. She choose to go through with it, and isn’t expressing any remorse. She’s so happy she did this, because if she had a CS, that would make her so very sad because she didn’t have time to psych herself up for it. Her baby’s broken bones make her less sad.
      I think this is a fair summary of the situation, don’t you think? We’re the meanies here, though, obviously.

    • Amazed
      October 5, 2016 at 9:43 am #

      Asshole broke her child’s arm by acting against warnings that this was a very likely result from a very likely dystocia if she proceeded with her lovely homebirth. Clearly, “her” birth was more important than her child’s health and very life.

      Assholes defend asshole like this. Fuck you, asshole. How many children of yours have you risked just so you can have this lovely homebirth?

    • Sasha
      October 5, 2016 at 1:10 pm #

      How dare we advocate for the well being of a child, you mean?

  13. Ayr
    October 4, 2016 at 7:52 pm #

    I don’t know what God these women are praying too, but it is not the God I know… God encourages common sense. You have a breech baby, if you try to give birth vaginally, there is a good chance the baby may not survive, not to mention the damage it can do to the mother.Common sense says – do the right thing have a c-section or at least go to a hospital where proper steps can be taken, who cares about your ‘dream water birth’. How selfish and arrogant.

    • Kq Not Logged In
      October 4, 2016 at 8:03 pm #

      Reminds me a bit of of a favorite joke of mine:

      There once was an old man named Morty. Each day, Morty prayed that God would let him win the lottery. Every morning, “Oh, dear God, please let me win the lottery.” Every night before bed, “My God, my God, if you would only let me win the lottery.” Forty years, he prayed! But he never won the lottery.

      One day, after many, many years of nothing, Morty was saying his usual morning prayers. “My God, if you would just let me win the lottery!” But on this day, Morty heard the voice of God booming from the clouds in answer. “Oy, Morty, meet me half way and buy a ticket!”

      • FormerPhysicist
        October 4, 2016 at 8:07 pm #

        A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

        Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”

        The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”

        So the rowboat went on.

        Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

        To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

        So the motorboat went on.

        Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”

        To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

        So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

        Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

        To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

        • shay simmons
          October 4, 2016 at 10:35 pm #

          This is a favorite Red Cross joke.

    • CSN0116
      October 4, 2016 at 8:08 pm #

      This site has taught me about things that I -legit- had no idea existed, and I’d like to think of myself as having been around. Like the bizarre interplay of fundamentalist Christianity and the obsession with natural living — the irony of “letting go and trusting God” while HAVING to consume and do X, Y and Z necessary healthy thing every day to maintain your biological superiority. Those two belief systems should never go together; it’s a walking contradiction.

      This woman’s website, Surrender, is the most fascinating thing I have read, sociologically, pretty much ever. I’m dumbfounded.

      • Amy
        October 4, 2016 at 11:08 pm #

        Is that the “Birth for the Glory of God” one? UGH

      • Ayr
        October 5, 2016 at 7:10 am #

        They don’t go together, the latter lends itself to a very superior ‘look at me’ kind of attitude. As an example; a woman I went to church with when we were in high school is married, has four or five children, home schools (nothing wrong with any of this), but she and her husband live on ten acres up in the mountains, 2 hours away from any town. She grows all her own fruit and veggies, organically, grinds her own wheat, etc. Nothing wrong with any of this except, she brags about it on Facebook, all the time! I keep thinking to myself how is this humble and Godly…um it’s not. And every person I know who live like that has the same, look at me, attitude, and post about it every where.

    • Azuran
      October 4, 2016 at 8:45 pm #

      If anything, God would probably support a c-section 100%. After all, what would be more selfless than a mother willing to go through the pain and potential risks of a C-section to avoid potential harm to her baby?

      • KeeperOfTheBooks
        October 4, 2016 at 10:23 pm #

        “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

  14. RMY
    October 4, 2016 at 6:33 pm #

    At least the baby lived. That being said, it’s really stunning how much emphasis on birth (which is only a matter of hours) there is, instead of, say, being a good parent who is raising a kid to become an independent adult (which is years).

  15. Lisa
    October 4, 2016 at 5:42 pm #

    WOW. How self-centered can you be?? A new born in horrible pain, but patting yourself on the back for a job well done–all to avoid your little party being ruined. I swear.

    • kilda
      October 4, 2016 at 10:24 pm #

      seriously. She sounded like she was whining about having to cancel a vacation she had booked. “But we were supposed to go to WaterBirthVille. It looked so pretty in the pictures and now I’ll never get to go there!”

      • Elaine
        October 5, 2016 at 10:44 am #

        I think that’s the problem. Birth is viewed as a destination, not a method of getting to a destination.

        Say you are in DC and you have to go to Florida. You’re trying to decide whether to fly or drive. There are pros and cons to both.

        You decide to fly. You go to the airport, you get on the plane, you fly, and you reach your destination. That’s a vaginal birth.

        Or, you decide to drive, because you don’t want to fly or there’s some reason it wouldn’t be a great idea for you. You get in your car and you go, and you reach your destination. That’s a planned pre-labor c-section.

        Or, you decide to fly, but you get to the airport and discover your plane had a mechanical failure and your flight is cancelled. You can wait for hours and see if you can get another plane and maybe have the same problem again, or you can drive. Or, your destination is totally fogged in and there is no way you are getting a flight there… good luck, go get in your car.

        But any of these ways, you get to Florida, and once you get there, how you got there doesn’t make that much difference. If you and your friend both went, but took different modes of transit, you might talk about how the trip was, but it would be dumb to fixate on “she got to fly and I had to drive” to the exclusion of actually enjoying Florida.

        • Roadstergal
          October 5, 2016 at 10:54 am #

          I love this analogy so much.

        • kilda
          October 5, 2016 at 10:55 am #

          Good metaphor.

          Home birthing with a CPM then would be insisting on flying, in the fog, with an unlicensed, self-trained pilot.

          Unassisted home birth because the mean hospital won’t let you do it your way = stealing the plane and flying it yourself.

          And this lady insisted on getting on the plane in the fog, with the unqualified pilot, it crashed on landing, the baby got 2 broken bones in the crash, and she’s happy because she got her flight to Florida.

          • Elaine
            October 5, 2016 at 11:07 am #

            I really shudder to think what the pro-natural-birth crowd would do with this analogy though; there are definitely some directions they could take it as well that are consistent with the metaphor but don’t note that flying with someone unqualified can actually be a really bad idea even if SOMETIMES it goes okay.

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone
        October 5, 2016 at 12:37 pm #

        They remind me a bit of the people I know who set such store by having a huge , fairy-tale wedding, perfect in every imagined detail. And make anyone who upsets their plans regret ever meeting them(I have met grooms as well as brides who do this). I understand being a little upset if something unexpected happens, but insisting that everything be exactly the way one envisioned it, no matter who else suffers seems both extremely controlling , and extremely childish. And that’s kinda insulting children….

        • MaineJen
          October 5, 2016 at 2:42 pm #

          Yup, Bridezillas=Birthzillas

  16. Heidi_storage
    October 4, 2016 at 4:31 pm #

    Sorry to go OT so early, but could someone with more statistical knowledge than I comment on the birth-control-depression study that’s making the rounds? They talked about person-years of depression, but it was REALLY hard for me to find some absolute numbers on just how many women, overall, developed depression. Without that information, I’m not sure how impressive that vaunted 23% increase is, though I’m inclined to take the adolescent results more seriously.

    The study is free here: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2552796

    ETA: To clarify: I did see ” A total of 133 178 first prescriptions of antidepressants and 23 077 first diagnoses of depression were detected during follow-up.”

    I’m not sure how that works out to how many women in each group (users, non-users) were diagnosed with depression.

    • fiftyfifty1
      October 4, 2016 at 5:02 pm #

      The biggest problem I see is the huge potential for confounding. The groups of women and teens studied likely have large baseline differences. Who gets/chooses what type of birth control depends greatly on many factors that are already known to be associated with depression. For instance, migraine sufferers are known to be more prone to depression. They are also more likely than the general population to be placed on progestin-type contraception (because estrogens can increase number of migraines and can be a risk factor for stroke in those with migraine plus aura). Depo-Provera and Nexplanon users are more likely to be low income which is a risk factor for depression. Women in stable relationships who have decided to try to conceive are often in a “happy place” emotionally. Teen girls who are not sexually active at all have lower levels of risk behaviors and mental health problems than sexually active teen girls. Heck maybe the headline should be “having sex with males leads to depression”.

      • Roadstergal
        October 4, 2016 at 5:37 pm #

        They claimed to control for ‘sex,’ but they did it in a strange way I don’t really buy. They also excluded pregnancy and 6 months post-partum from analysis, so depression caused by unwanted pregnancy and post-partum depression in general aren’t part of the analysis.

        Also, aren’t SSRIs and BC both prescribed for PMDD? They didn’t control for that.

        • fiftyfifty1
          October 4, 2016 at 5:51 pm #

          “Also, aren’t SSRIs and BC both prescribed for PMDD? They didn’t control for that.”
          Yep. Hormonal contraception has a dual reputation in the community. One reputation is that it makes women “hormonal and crazy”, the other reputation is that “it balances out your hormones making you less moody.” So I get both patients refusing to go on it, and asking to go on it because of mood concerns.

          • Dr Kitty
            October 5, 2016 at 8:36 am #

            Endometriosis, chronic pelvic pain, DUB and severe PMS are all reasons why women might opt for hormonal contraception, and are all risk factors for depression. I don’t know is any attempt was made to factor in that as confounding variables.

            Women who spend one out of every four weeks bleeding to the point of anaemia, in severe pelvic pain and with mood disturbances may well try hormonal treatments to help… and then, when it doesn’t, opt for antidepressants. This is not rocket science.

          • fiftyfifty1
            October 5, 2016 at 9:09 am #

            Another factor has got to be acceptance of medications in general. A subset a women won’t go on hormonal contraception because it is “unnatural”. They are the same women who won’t consider a medication to treat depression. Or women who refuse both due to concerns that they “make you fat”. And parents who would never let their teens go on either because “Isn’t she a little young for THAT?”

          • Roadstergal
            October 5, 2016 at 10:53 am #

            They controlled for PCOS and endometriosis, nothing else.

          • Dr Kitty
            October 5, 2016 at 11:07 am #

            Which means they controlled for a *diagnosis* of endometriosis or PCOS, despite a large proportion of women with these conditions remaining undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

            The story many women with endometriosis or PCOS have is of being dismissed by medical professionals over and over again. Told their problems were all in their heads, or related to their weight, or just “one of those things”.

            Diagnosing endometriosis requires evidence on imaging or laparoscopy. The VAST majority of women with heavy, painful periods will be diagnosed with primary dysmennorrhoea without further investigation and offered hormonal contraception for symptom control.

          • Kelly
            October 5, 2016 at 1:06 pm #

            I have the Mirena and I was hoping that it would help stabilize me as it would get rid of my periods. Guess who has a period like clockwork? Me, although it is just lighter. I still have all the PMS and food cravings.

      • Melaniexxxx
        October 4, 2016 at 11:20 pm #

        Yeah and how about the little fact that women who go to doctors frequently for pill repeat prescriptions are more likely over time to disclose and be diagnosed with depression due to the fact that they’re having more contact with the healthcare system and are invested in their own wellbeing? ugh

      • Dr Kitty
        October 5, 2016 at 7:08 am #

        There was some study a wholike ago that suggested as a conclusion that semen was anti-depressant because, and I kid you not, women using condoms reported depression more often than women who didn’t.

        I have a feeling this study might be similar.
        Adolescents who are sexually active and women who choose hormonal contraception may be more at risk for depression, but correlation is not necessarily indicative of causation.

    • Madtowngirl
      October 4, 2016 at 10:20 pm #

      Anecdotal, but I was diagnosed with depression long before I went on an oral contraceptive. Many years later, I was also diagnosed with PCOS, which has a known symptom of depression.

      Also anecdotal, but a number of women with PCOS I have known have also been diagnosed later in life, due to the pill masking their irregular period symptoms. I haven’t read the studies either, and others have done a better breakdown of confounding factors, but certainly this is one example.

    • carovee
      October 5, 2016 at 3:09 pm #

      From the study: Among
      all users of hormonal contraceptives, the crude incidence rate of first
      use of antidepressants was 2.2 per 100 person-years; that of first
      diagnosis of depression at a psychiatric hospital, 0.3 per 100
      person-years. The corresponding crude incidence rates in nonusers of
      hormonal contraception were 1.7 and 0.28 per 100 person-years,

      The rest of the article cites relative risk. But you need both. Going from a depression prevalence rate of 1.7 per 100 person years to 2.2 per 100 person years doesn’t seem like much of an increase but it depends on the costs to the individual and to society.

      Basically it sounds like the paper is just trying to get practitioners to watch for symptoms of depression in their BC taking patients.

  17. lilin
    October 4, 2016 at 3:34 pm #

    “We talked about how this could break my baby’s bones and sure enough its bones broke! That’s so cool!”

    Ugh. What a shithead. I wonder if she’d be willing to have her own clavicle and arm broken to see what her kid felt.

    • LeighW
      October 4, 2016 at 5:26 pm #

      I have a crowbar in the garage and a flexible work schedule….

    • Lisa
      October 4, 2016 at 5:43 pm #

      CPS needs to be involved. Thats a crap-load of pain for an ADULT let alone a newborn.

      • lilin
        October 4, 2016 at 6:20 pm #

        Yeah, but according to these nuts, babies don’t feel pain like we do. Also they don’t need to breathe or feel terror when their air is cut off like we do. Also if they lose huge percentages of their body weight because mom doesn’t want to supplement breast milk with formula, it’s okay because they don’t feel hunger like we do.

        • LaMont
          October 4, 2016 at 6:25 pm #

          But if they don’t feel pain, why do they say that pain is such a factor in their Vitamin K and circumcision objections? These people are truly… something.

          • lilin
            October 4, 2016 at 6:39 pm #

            They only feel pain when “unnatural” things happen to them, I guess. Breaking bones are perfectly natural.

          • Roadstergal
            October 4, 2016 at 7:16 pm #

            The crappiest thing about a collarbone break is feeling the broken ends crunch and rub against each other when you move or breathe.

          • Mishimoo
            October 5, 2016 at 3:53 am #

            My siblings broke theirs, it was awful and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Mine just subluxates if I sleep funny, it is a minor irritation, thanks to my joint issues.

        • Roadstergal
          October 4, 2016 at 7:15 pm #

          It’s so crazy the way they look at fetuses/newborns. They have all of this knowledge of how to come earth-side and when to be born and where to be born and how to be born (it always aligns with mom’s values, surprise surprise). They are unaffected by hypoxia or pain as long as mom is engaged in The Perfect Birth. It’s like they think we all start off as some sort of Super Saiyan, and we de-evolve as we grow from birth to toddlerhood.

          • demodocus
            October 4, 2016 at 8:43 pm #

            …considering toddlerhood…

        • Gene
          October 4, 2016 at 8:08 pm #

          They don’t feel the pain of a broken bone or hypoxia, but a shot of VitK in the thigh or some goop in the eyes is beyond the pale.

          • Azuran
            October 4, 2016 at 8:51 pm #

            The inability of some people to understand the pain of other beings is unbelievable.
            I have pet owners who regularly refuse painkiller for their pets because they just won’t believe they are in pain.
            I’ve been told many time: ‘He’s not in pain, he’s just limping’

          • namaste863
            October 4, 2016 at 10:41 pm #

            Grrrrrrrr. Good thing I’m not a vet. I’d haul off and cold cock them.

          • BeatriceC
            October 5, 2016 at 2:28 am #

            Pain medication made the last three weeks of Cookie’s life happy and carefree. He didn’t care much for the injections, but that was just once a day. He went from being forlorn and basically doing nothing, to flying around an causing trouble all around the house up until the day before he died. Worth. Every. Penny.

          • Stephanie Rotherham
            October 5, 2016 at 9:58 am #

            Isn’t it generally, by the time your animal is showing pain, it’s probably been in it for some time already and needs medical attention? I always worry when my bunny isn’t acting like herself; the difference before and after painkillers is amazing.

          • Azuran
            October 5, 2016 at 10:31 am #

            Often they show signs of pain or discomfort very quickly. But many owners just don’t understand the pet language enough to be able to see it early. That’s understandable, some animals are indeed also very good at hiding it.
            What is frustrating, is the amount of time some people will wait even after seeing if their animal is unwell. And when they finally bring them in, and I tell them what is wrong, they dismiss my concerns for his pain and health.

        • Bombshellrisa
          October 4, 2016 at 9:03 pm #

          Until it comes to vaccinations or getting bloodwork done, then those needle pricks are pain of an epic proportion and must be avoided. Same with hats and having the baby separated from you to get weighed and measured right after birth.

          • indigosky
            October 4, 2016 at 9:44 pm #

            Or formula. Formula is disgusting poison and newborns have a sensitive palate and can tell the difference. /sarcasm

          • Bombshellrisa
            October 4, 2016 at 10:17 pm #

            Plus it ruins their guts and sets them up to be obese, cancer riddled diabetics with allergies and asthma.

        • Linden
          October 5, 2016 at 9:05 am #

          Isn’t there a great overlap between these people and the “fetuses feel pain at every stage of their development, so pregnant women need to go through all sorts of unnecessary procedures to have a termination” people?

    • Ayr
      October 5, 2016 at 7:13 am #

      Doubtful she would do anything so selfless.

    • mabelcruet
      October 5, 2016 at 3:26 pm #

      But the baby is breast fed, so mother’s magickal elixir, fountain of health and universal panacea will INSTANTLY heal those bones-they were only tiny little fractures anyhow…

      TFIC and sarcasm, obviously

  18. Jamie
    October 4, 2016 at 3:34 pm #

    For heaven’s sake! What on earth is so wrong with mom being safely cut open in a hospital setting to remove her baby safely? What is worse than that? I guess breaking her baby’s arms isn’t so bad…..

    • Sean Jungian
      October 4, 2016 at 3:40 pm #

      Well, it’s not a WATER BIRTH that way. That was the most important consideration for this woman. Having that WATER BIRTH that she planned for MONTHS etc. etc.

      • kilda
        October 4, 2016 at 3:47 pm #

        right, and the water birth she planned was going to be so peaceful and beautiful and serene. I wonder how serene the baby felt as he was having his arm and clavicle broken. Oh that’s right, he was unconscious from oxygen deprivation at that point, so I guess he didn’t feel it. So it’s all good. I mean, you don’t get much more peaceful than unconscious.

        • fiftyfifty1
          October 4, 2016 at 4:21 pm #

          ” I mean, you don’t get much more peaceful than unconscious.”
          Don’t forget dead! That’s probably even more peaceful, and could easily have been an outcome for her baby. Guess she’ll have to try again!

        • Lisa
          October 4, 2016 at 5:45 pm #

          And how peaceful is being born into a tub with fecal contamination anyway? So the bogus Christian Medi-scam bill sharing service won’t pay for a hospital? Gosh, guess that leaves the evil government to pay for it! What a whack job.

      • momofone
        October 4, 2016 at 5:06 pm #

        And that her husband had worked SO HARD to pay for! You wouldn’t want to throw away all that money just so your newborn baby wouldn’t have broken bones!

      • guest
        October 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm #

        I’m waiting for the first water c-section to happen. Who cares if it’s not sterile? WATER BIRTH IS IMPORTANT.

        • Mrs.Katt the Cat
          October 4, 2016 at 11:34 pm #

          Only if it dolphin assisted.

          • guest
            October 5, 2016 at 1:47 pm #

            Assissted? Pffft. If the dolphin isn’t doing the surgery, it doesn’t even count.

    • Sean Jungian
      October 4, 2016 at 3:56 pm #

      “What is worse than that?”

      The mother being disappointed and not getting her way is apparently worse than anything.

      • Lisa
        October 4, 2016 at 5:44 pm #

        Cause having it her way is why she’s pregnant. It’s not about the kid–it’s Mommy’s moment

  19. Lemongrass
    October 4, 2016 at 3:27 pm #

    This is the second time this week I’ve read a story where a breech baby had their bones broken during delivery. WTF is wrong with these people. Written from the perspective of their lawyer (CPS was called on the parents for numerous reasons) :

    “Rachel explained that she wanted a normal physiological birth. The providers asked if they could do an ultrasound, to determine the position of the child. She said that she had never done an ultrasound yet in this pregnancy, and asked if they could wait until Dustin arrived so that they could share that experience together. Someone expressed concern that the baby’s position could be breech. Rachel said, “Well, if it’s breech, the important thing is that you don’t touch it, and let it come out on its own, unless it needs help.” The doctor responded, “wow, you know so much.”

    Dustin arrived and the baby was coming. Rachel was squatting on the bed holding a bar. The doctor rubbed the ultrasound wand over her belly, and said, “The baby’s breech! Prep her for c-section.” Rachel was asking what that meant, and the doctor was answering “You’re going to be numb from your chest down.” Rachel asked, “Have any of you ever delivered a breech baby naturally?” They all indicated, no. Before they could wheel her to surgery, the baby’s body came out of her vagina. She was pinned back by her arms and her legs pulled up and back. The doctor put her hands on the baby and started “delivering” it. There was a loud snap. The baby’s arm was broken at a right angle. Her apgars was 4 and 8. It was around 4:00am. Rachel remembers the doctor communicating what a terrible position she had put them all in and what a fright she gave them, and then leaving, never to be seen again.” https://www.facebook.com/hayesklein/posts/1198848743492263

  20. namaste863
    October 4, 2016 at 3:15 pm #

    Anyone remember that looney toon who dragged everyone to Bali? She displayed more common sense than the above woman. When things turned sour she ultimately did the right thing, cut her losses, and went in for a C section. This wack job, on the other hand……..wasn’t willing to do that even when it was obvious that the baby was not going to escape without some kind of injury. It remained all about her and her perfect “Experience.”She might as well have come right out and said “I don’t give a shit if the kid lives or dies. It’s all about me!”

  21. Glia
    October 4, 2016 at 2:48 pm #

    Oh, wow, now I’m feeling really bad about my failure of a birth with my breech baby. I could have had a nice, peaceful, successful birth instead, if only I’d tried harder. In fact, it seems like even my baby really wanted me to have the experience, since he was so upset by my failure that he came out SCREAMING, just all tense and red and angry. Obviously, he was so upset that I tried everything I could to spare him any injury. Babies are so selfless.

  22. Gene
    October 4, 2016 at 2:34 pm #

    “Midwife had to breathe for him, remember not uncommon for breech … ”

    Umm, yeah. “…not uncommon for births attended by incompetent idiots…”

    There. FIFY.

    • lilin
      October 4, 2016 at 7:28 pm #

      It’s a good turn of phrase, too. So much better than, “My baby wasn’t breathing.” Someone else just had to breathe for him, that’s all!

      • Sean Jungian
        October 4, 2016 at 8:19 pm #

        No big whoop! Happens all the time!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          October 4, 2016 at 8:20 pm #

          Esp with breech babies.

          Might be why doctors don’t lIke to do breech deliveries? Nah, they just have to get to their golf game

          • Sean Jungian
            October 4, 2016 at 8:23 pm #

            And get to the bank to cash in their ShillBux

  23. Are you nuts
    October 4, 2016 at 2:19 pm #

    I’m guessing this arm breaker also declined the newborn screening heel stick to spare her child the pain? Seems to be how these people operate.

  24. CSN0116
    October 4, 2016 at 2:06 pm #

    “See Jesus” when you give birth and purchase oils, doula kits, scripture cards, t-shirts, and more! This is the site her and her husband run and it’ll blow your fucking mind:


    • CSN0116
      October 4, 2016 at 2:09 pm #

      Excerpt for funsies: “God the son suffers and dies. He doesn’t just die…He both SUFFERS and dies. So when we suffer, we do so knowing that there is a far greater hope and weight of eternal glory stored up for those who are in His son.”

      • Mrs.Katt the Cat
        October 4, 2016 at 3:01 pm #

        Sigh. And here I always thought that whole thing was supposed to be final, suffered and died so we don’t have too do that whole sacrificing for favor anymore. An END to suffering not an example to follow. But apparently our kids are supposed to suffer as sacrifice to prove our devotion now? F that old testament sh!t. I’m going modern- with science.
        If you are going to use religion as an excuse, at least get the basics right.

      • Erin
        October 4, 2016 at 3:21 pm #

        I thought it was meant to be us (i.e. the mother) who did the suffering during childbirth?

        I hated my section but I would rather they operated without pain relief and broke every bone in my body before my son was hurt especially unnecessarily.

    • Lisa
      October 4, 2016 at 5:48 pm #

      FY! If only she’d drank the right herbal tea and bought a full kit of Sc-AMWAY essential oils! That’s would have made it all ok!

    • RudyTooty
      October 4, 2016 at 8:05 pm #

      Oh Jesus Christ.

      (And yes, I mean that completely blasphemously.)

  25. CSN0116
    October 4, 2016 at 1:49 pm #

    Awww is this one of the women who is a better mom than me because she breastfeeds? I’m the shit mom, right?

    • Cartman36
      October 4, 2016 at 2:24 pm #

      If I knew how to add a standing ovation emoji as a response to this comment I would. Excellent point!

  26. Roadstergal
    October 4, 2016 at 1:40 pm #

    “I started running out of energy because I had no break really since everything started only 30 minutes or so prior”

    I’m trying to find a violin small enough. I’m warming up the electron microscope.

    • Roadstergal
      October 4, 2016 at 1:43 pm #


      “My husband supported me quite well, but felt confused as to why I was so adamant about avoiding going to the hospital for c-section. It would be quick and both of us would be ok and safe…
      All the hard work he put into paying for me to have the home birth I wanted for our last child…”

      The dad seems to have his priorities way more in order (Who cares if I paid for this home birth, I want a live baby!). In some ways, poor guy, trying to convince his wife to do what’s best for both her and the baby. On the other hand, though, people who are so vocal about their personal god in the USofA tend to have a lot of weird sexist shite going on, so who knows.

      • October 4, 2016 at 1:49 pm #

        In the weirdly controlling sexist religions, often childbirth is the only area where husbands have little overt control over childbirth plans – as much as because we view pregnancy and birth as a “woman’s” topic.

        I believe that one scope of freedom often makes members of sexist groups that devalue education overly gullible when it comes to claims from NCB and CAM (or as my husband put it “add supplementary in front of complimentary alternative medicine to get the real acronym: SCAM)

        • Maud Pie
          October 4, 2016 at 2:17 pm #

          Religions that take a biological essentialist view on gender roles can get themselves into some mind-boggling positions on reproductive issues. They start with the belief that motherhood is woman’s biologically ordained role, which must also be her divinely ordained role, because the deity designed that biology, therefore any resistance to that role, such as through the right to avoid pregnancy through contraception or the right to terminate a pregnancy, is an abomination against the deity. Having started down this rabbit hole of biology-knows-best, it’s easy to believe that childbirth interventions and formula are a disrespectful slap in the face to womanhood, motherhood, and to the deity himself. And then it’s easy to buy into attachment parenting, anti-vaxx, and wootastic healing. Thus you get a religion that’s virulently anti-abortion but perfectly happy to encourage parents to endanger children through homebirth and rejection of evidence based medicine. Also, a religion that exhorts wives to submit to their husbands, but tells men to shut up when they worry about childbirth hazards.

          • October 4, 2016 at 5:56 pm #

            This is really insightful. It makes the connection between religion and woo very clearly.

          • Maud Pie
            October 4, 2016 at 9:50 pm #

            I’m glad I could help you gain insight without your having first-hand contact with any of these crackpots.

        • Lisa
          October 4, 2016 at 5:50 pm #

          SCAM indeed. Teas, essential oils, chiropractors–hell why didn’t they call the chiropractor! I bet he’d know just what to do. They’re the only “licensed” anything most will see. Probably though, she should have cut out evil gluten! honestly what whack jobs

    • Charybdis
      October 4, 2016 at 5:23 pm #

      Transmission or scanning?

      • Roadstergal
        October 4, 2016 at 5:38 pm #

        Transmission, back when I did it. It’s been a while. :p

        • Charybdis
          October 4, 2016 at 5:56 pm #

          Me too! TEM for asbestos. Did you go to McCrone?

          • Roadstergal
            October 4, 2016 at 6:02 pm #

            I got trained as part of my bio degree. But I got hooked on flow cytometry early on and drifted away from EM. :p

      • Who?
        October 4, 2016 at 5:48 pm #

        Having no success w perfume samples, but will sooon be on holiday in a shopping Mecca, so will try while I’m there .

        • Charybdis
          October 4, 2016 at 5:56 pm #

          Oh thank you! I hope you can find some.

          • Who?
            October 4, 2016 at 5:58 pm #

            It’s my new mini-project. The shop here said samples in the runup to Christmas, so that’s the fallback.

  27. Cartman36
    October 4, 2016 at 1:39 pm #

    I think I’m more horrified by this article than any other I have ever read on this page. I agree with one of the FB commentators that I would choose 500 c-sections over having my child suffer a broken bone. how a mother can congratulate herself for birth choices that injured her helpless baby is totally beyond me. Taking enjoyment in breaking a child’s bones is child abuse and stunningly cruel.

    I am absolutely certain that God does not want or encourage people to forgo medical treatment of interventions which will save and protect the precious babies he is giving them.

    • October 4, 2016 at 1:40 pm #

      “We thought leaving her unattended in a car in 90F heat would cause heat stroke! We were so right! We even called it!”

      • kilda
        October 4, 2016 at 2:14 pm #

        but it was a totally empowering experience for me, so it was all worth it!

    • Rachel
      October 4, 2016 at 3:13 pm #

      100% agree

    • BeatriceC
      October 5, 2016 at 2:42 am #

      My oldest son suffered a dislocated shoulder and nerve damage from a “mild to moderate” SD during birth. He’s not allowed to drive because his left arm can go suddenly numb and paralyzed when he turns his head (doesn’t happen all the time, but often enough that he’s medically contraindicated from driving). At first we thought those symptoms were related to the bone disease he has but nothing in his numerous x-rays, CT scans and MRI’s showed anything. His ortho requested his entire medical history and is of the opinion that this is the result of the nerve damage done during his birth.

      There was no way to predict that happening. This was my first close to term baby, but still preterm (I’d lost a set of twins at 18 weeks prior to him that had to come out vaginally, but they were tiny, only about half a pound). They were not expecting an 8 pound, 8 ounce baby, and there was no reason to believe I’d have any sort of trouble. And I still feel guilty about it. He’s 17 now.

  28. October 4, 2016 at 1:39 pm #

    So….a baby human was attempting to be born in the not-preferred, but manageable position for a calf (i.e, backwards Superman with spine up!) but horrifically hard to deliver in humans.

    Did the midwife get the baby confused with a calf? Because that’s the ONLY idea that makes sense here.

    • Cheryl Assenheimer
      October 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm #

      I grew up on a beef farm. I saw a few too many backwards calves die. That’s heartbreaking enough. I can’t imagine risking that with a tiny human

      • October 5, 2016 at 10:38 am #

        Right? There are just some situations that are just too dangerous – and we know when the situation is dangerous! This is not a completely unknown situation.

        To me, this footling-breech scenario is like feeling a tail and no feet or four feet when you examine a cow who is not progressing and just deciding to either let nature take its course or to mess around with it yourself instead of calling the vet on our farm.

        We really don’t like seeing a calf coming back feet first, but there’s a chance if we can get it out fast enough after the umbilical ruptures that the calf will survive. On the flip side, if the cow is progressing quickly, the first sign we have that something is wrong is limp back legs hanging out of the cow – that sucks because you know you are too late to save the calf.

        The dam is generally fine after a feet-first backwards delivery if the spine is on top – and that’s the biggie in dairy farming.

        The truth in dairy farming is a lost calf is sad, but not usually the end of the world. We make our money on the milk production of the dam and need about 1 heifer calf in three births to keep the herd at a stable size. Currently, we are just about breaking even on the sale price of bull calves when we sell them at birth for the cost of care over the two to three days we have them. Losing a heifer calf sucks – especially if she was from a good cow and a promising sire – but that’s still more of a theoretical loss of profit than an actual loss since we’ll never know if she was a good milker and breeder or not.

  29. Sasha
    October 4, 2016 at 1:37 pm #

    My 18mo had a case of nursemaid’s elbow because she dropped hard on her butt while I was holding her hand.

    She was fine, it resolved quickly and the doctor fixed in a jiffy and taught us to do it next time. She had painkillers, got a new stuffed animal and no lasting (or short) damage from it.

    To this day my breath catches and I breakdown at the thought that I BROKE MY CHILD. Through no fault of my own. I broke her because I was holding her hand and it hurt her and my baby suffered for even the most minimal amount of time.

    I can’t begin to understand the selfishness of this woman who treats her baby like an achievement.

    • guest
      October 4, 2016 at 1:43 pm #

      If it makes you feel better, my father dislocated my arm when I was about 18 months old. It was just an accident that someone with more experience might have avoided, but he didn’t know. It didn’t damage our relationship! I still loved and admired him.

      I’m not sure how I would feel if I knew someone told him ahead of time that exactly that injury could happen if he did exactly what he did and then he did it anyway.

      • Sasha
        October 4, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

        The ER doc told us it was expected because she’s double jointed, so he wasn’t surprised and there wasn’t lasting damage. Taught us to fix it ourselves because he was pretty certain it may happen again.

        He insisted it wasn’t my fault. I still feel like I broke my baby. It’s a horrible feeling. I could never taken pride in her pain.

        • Gene
          October 4, 2016 at 2:32 pm #

          Nursemaids is CRAZY common. My own son did it twice. And is by far my favorite thing to see in the ED because it is something I can fix in 2 seconds.

          Don’t feel bad. Seriously, don’t.

          • Sasha
            October 4, 2016 at 3:24 pm #

            It’s more the principle of the thing and the new mom I-broke-my-baby

            I can’t begin to fathom what I would have done if my baby had broken her collarbone and humerus because of something I did.

            (Happy to report it hasn’t happened since, we take care when we hold on to Ms. Noodle Legs)

        • moto_librarian
          October 4, 2016 at 3:26 pm #

          Accidents happen. But you do feel awful when they do. Our younger son wasn’t quite two when he climbed on the tall kitchen chair for the sixth time one morning. I was stepping over to make him get down when he fell and hit his nose on the corner of the table. He got three stitches and a head x-ray, and I felt like the worst parent on the planet. When we got home from the ER, what do you think he tried to do again? That’s right – climb the same damned chair.

          • BeatriceC
            October 6, 2016 at 1:02 pm #

            Sounds like something MK would have done. I had to rescue him off the roof of my parents’ house when he was two. That was the last time my father was allowed to babysit.

          • demodocus
            October 6, 2016 at 1:48 pm #

            Dem worsened his blindness when he was 2 because he climbed onto the piano bench and fell off. MIL doesn’t go into detail much past that, unsurprisingly.

        • FEDUP MD
          October 5, 2016 at 7:17 pm #

          It wasn’t your fault. It’s extremely common. Lots of kids do it on their own too without even a parent involved from a minor fall. They almost never cause a problem, ever,

          It probably also doesn’t hurt THAT much from the way the kids act. On the list of painful things that can happen I would guess it’s pretty far down. Most of them don’t care that much, just don’t use the arm, and cry for just a second when it’s fixed and then are fine.

    • demodocus
      October 4, 2016 at 6:30 pm #

      I broke my son’s femur last summer.

      • Gatita
        October 5, 2016 at 2:21 pm #

        Aaaauuugggghhh. I’m so sorry for both of you.

    • Emilie Bishop
      October 4, 2016 at 7:44 pm #

      I agree. My toddler just had stitches in his ear, and the whole ordeal about broke my heart. I’d have taken every ounce of his pain on myself if I could. This woman is disgusting.

    • Mishimoo
      October 5, 2016 at 4:05 am #

      My two girls had the same thing happen in the same way at roughly the same age, and I still feel guilty even though in both cases, it went back in as I was gently examining their arm and they have no memory of it.

      This is why we can’t really do the swing/jump thing that little kids adore, my kids elbows can pop out really easily and it’s just not worth the risk of pain/damage.

    • Stephanie Rotherham
      October 5, 2016 at 9:50 am #

      About a year ago, there were plans for us to go on a day trip down south for some shopping; I have a house rabbit, and she would have been fine left alone for the day, then taken out in the evening. We ended up not going on the day trip.

      Which was a very good thing, because it turns out the bunny had developed G.I. stasis, which in rabbits basically means their guts stop moving and they can die; it is an emergency that cannot be resolved at home. If we had gone out for the day and returned home late, she might have died, or the vet’s would have been closed and I don’t know if they do out of hours. Luckily we got her in and there was no lasting problems (she had another episode, less severe, a few months ago, but recovered pretty quickly).

      I feel physically sick still typing this; I feel so guilty for wanting to go shopping when my beloved pet could have been dying. And this is a rabbit, not a child- how anyone could be so fucking selfish to break the bones of their own baby, just to get something they want, is beyond me.

  30. AngelaB
    October 4, 2016 at 1:20 pm #

    The delusional talk about “God” talking to her makes me wonder if this woman has some psychological issues. She speaks of how awesome her birth was when in fact it was extremely traumatic, even for the Midwife!

    • Sean Jungian
      October 4, 2016 at 1:33 pm #

      I’m an atheist but even I don’t think praying and looking to God for guidance is some kind of psychological issue. It’s pretty common at least here in the U.S.

      She may have issues and delusions but I don’t think belief in a personally-involved god is necessarily one of them.

      • Roadstergal
        October 4, 2016 at 1:38 pm #

        Yeah, that’s the USofA god. She/he/it always says just what you want to hear.

      • Erin
        October 4, 2016 at 1:51 pm #

        Looking to God I have no issue with. I prayed for the first time in years when I was in labour, hoping that someone would save my son regardless of the consequences for me. I wasn’t really expecting a reply though.

        One of my Great Uncles spoke to God and God apparently spoke back. He used to go into a trance and speak in tongues at every family party.

        I wouldn’t however have taken any advice from him on how best to have my son.

      • Kq Not Logged In
        October 4, 2016 at 7:54 pm #

        Its more the part where she says God talks back to her that pushes it over the edge for me. Especially since he so very conveniently said just what she wanted, when she wanted it.

        • Sean Jungian
          October 4, 2016 at 8:14 pm #

          Mostly I just don’t think a simple and common practice like praying and looking for affirmation from a god is necessarily good enough to online diagnose a mental illness or issue, is my main point.

          • October 4, 2016 at 8:33 pm #

            I agree (and I’m an Atheist). And I’m not diagnosing anyone. But I found this woman’s statements, in context of her post, made her look even less mentally healthy…

    • Lisa
      October 4, 2016 at 5:53 pm #

      No, that’s pretty common here, but most give up and get the c-section. It’s the horrors like this one we all hear about and for good reason. No one should be so butt stupid.

    • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild
      October 5, 2016 at 12:37 am #

      No, it’s not delusion. It’s passing the blame. Its never their fault. It is “the will of god” her baby nearly was mangled and nearly died.

  31. Kelly
    October 4, 2016 at 1:19 pm #

    My one year old fell out of her stroller and onto her face. The next time, I made sure to strap her in tight. Thankfully, all she had was some scraps on her face. I am pretty laid back because I want my kids to learn natural consequences but if those consequences are going to significantly injure or kill my kids, I won’t do it. I felt pretty bad about her falling because I knew she was standing in the stroller and I thought I would be able to catch her before she fell. I of course got distracted and even though I was right there, I could not catch her.

    • Gatita
      October 5, 2016 at 2:19 pm #

      Dude, my son pitched head first out of his stroller into the gutter. Thank god no cars were turning at that moment. I still have PTSD flashbacks for that one.

      • Kelly
        October 6, 2016 at 11:31 am #

        They really know how to scare the ever-living crap out of us. I also like how my children like to do the stupidest things in front of people. Can’t they just wait until they are gone?

        • Sean Jungian
          October 6, 2016 at 11:59 am #

          Ah, fond memories of going to my son’s Winter concerts or church program and seeing him, all dressed up, hair slicked down, tie in place, finger firmly up his nose digging for gold….

          • Kelly
            October 6, 2016 at 10:05 pm #

            I work with the little kids at church and we call that the quiet button.

          • Sean Jungian
            October 7, 2016 at 7:44 am #

            That is hilarious!

  32. Dennis Fisher
    October 4, 2016 at 1:17 pm #

    To unnecessarily sacrifice another person for your own pride and hubris is evil.

  33. guest
    October 4, 2016 at 1:16 pm #

    I turned my back once and my seven month old fell off the bed onto the wood floor. I was horrified, and he didn’t even break any bones.

    • MB
      October 4, 2016 at 2:47 pm #

      Omg, my fourteen month old used his face as landing gear about a month ago and needed stitches. I was, as usual, with him all alone, so it was pretty traumatic for us both, though I don’t think he even remembers it at this point.

      He likes to do this thing where he runs at the couch full speed and flings his little body into the sofa cushion. Well, at just the right moment while he was doing this, he tripped and did a header into the baseboard of the sofa, which happens to be upholstered, I might mention. He hit it so hard, I knew even before I picked him up we were going to have to go to ER, though I thought for a concussion. When I picked him up, I saw he split his little head right open on his eyebrow from the force of it.

      What a nightmare. I was standing right there. It just happened so fast. All I think about every time I look at it is how I let this happen and now my baby is scarred for life. I mean, it’s not that bad, and I know it will fade, but still, hard not to feel guilt when these things happen, you know?

    • corblimeybot
      October 4, 2016 at 10:23 pm #

      My kid fell all the way down a flight of stairs and was unharmed. I, on the other hand, nearly died of self-loathing and horror.

      This is why I cannot be be persuaded that people like this waterbirthing woman love their children.

      • FEDUP MD
        October 5, 2016 at 7:20 pm #

        When I worked in a pediatric ED, we saw at least one toddler fall down the stairs a shift. All the moms were convinced they were shit moms. They weren’t, it just happens. I told them it happens all the time, they’re just tricky little beasts.

        • corblimeybot
          October 6, 2016 at 11:43 am #

          Thank you so much. It does help to hear things like that. My kid has been through a lot worse since then, and I still am trying to get over the guilt!

          When she fell, we totally panicked. We called 911, and her nurse line, and took her to the pediatrician the next day – and they all said something similar. That this stuff just happens to kids. They were all so kind and reassuring.

  34. moto_librarian
    October 4, 2016 at 1:10 pm #

    “Turns out his clavicle was broken as well as a fracture of the humerus in his left arm during delivery. How awesome is it, that we actually discussed this BEFORE labor started!? Not even two hours prior to him being born! He was in some pain but is doing great now and completely healed at 3 weeks old.”

    I have no words for this level of narcissism. There is nothing “awesome” about this. All that it does is prove that you valued your water birth over the safety of your child. I’m equally stunned by how cavalier she is about her baby not breathing at birth. Here’s a hint: the risks of broken bones and respiratory distress are precisely why c-sections are the standard of care for breech babies. Only a disgusting, selfish person would be proud of an “accomplishment” like this.

    • momofone
      October 4, 2016 at 1:13 pm #

      “Oh my gosh–I was warned that my baby might have this complication–AND HE DID! Wooohooo!”

      • Kelly
        October 4, 2016 at 1:20 pm #

        If she were at the hospital and they had warned her, she would have said they were playing the dead baby card.

        • moto_librarian
          October 4, 2016 at 1:22 pm #

          Yeah, since he was only half-dead at birth with a couple of broken bones, I guess she would have showed them!

          • October 4, 2016 at 1:44 pm #

            I think I know the answer, but I have to ask:

            How do they “know” the baby is ok 3 weeks post-fractured arm and severe enough hypoxia to be born purple and not breathing?

            Was an actual doctor involved in that pronouncement?

            Did anyone do a neurological exam?

            The broken arm and clavicle is horrifying; I got the lowest grade separation of my shoulder as an adult and was amazed at how much pain it caused – but it should heal fairly well someday.

            Neurons, on the other hand, don’t always pop back from trauma.

          • Roadstergal
            October 4, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

            Am I mis-reading the story, or was her baby partway-out and probably hypoxic for about half an hour?

          • moto_librarian
            October 4, 2016 at 1:48 pm #

            I hope that she means that she had been pushing for a half an hour. If the baby’s head had been entrapped for 30 minutes, I doubt that any amount of resuscitation could have brought him back.

          • October 4, 2016 at 1:54 pm #

            My understanding was that between when the legs engaged in the pelvis until the head was born was 30 minutes.

            I imagine she had to push like hell because she had a weirdly incomplete breech that doesn’t engage the cervix well at all; after each contraction, the hips could easily slide back up into the pelvis and leave the legs in the cervix which would mess up dilation.

            At least, that’s what happens in cows during the early stages of engagement who have been selected to deal with that. Not humans so much.

          • Roadstergal
            October 4, 2016 at 1:57 pm #

            That makes a lot of sense, to a non-OB person!

          • corblimeybot
            October 6, 2016 at 10:31 am #

            BREASTFEEDEEEEEDDING. They probably rubbed breastmilk into the baby’s head. No problem!

            Soon we’ll hear about these people filling up a tub with breastmilk, and submerging their hypoxic newborns inside, like a bacta tank.

        • fiftyfifty1
          October 4, 2016 at 4:43 pm #

          “If she were at the hospital and they had warned her, she would have said they were playing the dead baby card.”

          Yep, and then had their lawyer blame the OBs for any bad outcome just like that idiot advocate of the recent couple did (the blond dreadlocked ones):

          “The doctor put her hands on the baby and started “delivering” it. There was a loud snap. The baby’s arm was broken at a right angle. Her apgars was 4 and 8..”

    • OttawaAlison
      October 4, 2016 at 4:26 pm #

      I really can’t with these people. I sometimes think they literally have no comprehension that they are risking their child’s lives.
      The worst thought I personally had after Jessamyn was stillborn was that she was in pain at any point. That thought kept me up at night. I guess for this lady to process things she just kind of ignored the fact her child was in pain maybe? I really don’t get it.

      • moto_librarian
        October 4, 2016 at 4:34 pm #

        That’s because you are a decent, caring human being, OttawaAlison. And I would venture that most parents would do damned near anything to spare their children pain of any kind. I know that I would. Instead, she thinks she gets extra crunchy points for maiming and nearly killing her child during her stunt birth. That people like her are able to have lots of children while others cannot is proof that the universe if colossally unfair.

      • October 4, 2016 at 9:09 pm #

        That was the reason my parents told the doctors to stop doing CPR on my infant brother when it was clear he wasn’t going to make it. The doctors explained to my parents that with the fact he had been running a fever and the amount of time he had been without oxygen that if any part of his brain was still working it would only be the part that feels pain – and nothing else.

        They told the doctors to stop as soon as the doctors finished the sentence.

        Mom’s said that watching my sister cry as a preemie after heel pricks was horrible, but she knew that they needed to do them to keep Sis alive – but that she couldn’t let David die slowly and in pain. That’s not what parents do.

    • Laura Thompson
      October 7, 2016 at 10:51 am #

      Was this true in the eighties, as far as c sections being standard for breech births? I delivered naturally but wished I hadn’t. (Not my choice!)

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