The latest “argument” of vaccine rejectionists

image

I blog in a variety of places with a variety of different audiences, but I am struck by the uniformity of the arguments of vaccine rejectionists. It’s not surprising, though, when you consider that they are not reaching their conclusions independently, but rather regurgitating seemingly “impressive” arguments they have read on vaccine rejection websites.

The latest such “argument” is that the safety and efficacy of vaccines have never been proven because they have not been subjected to a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo. This “argument” is designed to impress those with a minimal knowledge of statistics. In other words, it is designed to impress those who know enough statistics to realize that anecdotes are not a substitute for scientific studies and are familiar with the concept that a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo is the “gold standard” in some areas of drug research.

Unfortunately, they don’t know enough to realize that controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical in certain circumstances, including the testing of vaccines. So what is presented on vaccine rejection websites as a startling and inexplicable refusal of scientists to test vaccines is actually the inevitable result of complying with ethical rules for scientific investigations.

There are many situations in which controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical. Consider infant carseats:

Do carseats minimize the risk of injury and death of infants?

There never been a controlled randomized double blind study of carseats. Why not? Because it is unethical to randomize some infants to be unbelted in cars simply so we can check how many will be injured and die.

Does that mean we don’t know if carseats reduce the risk of injury and death? Of course not. There are a myriad of statistical investigations that allow us to determine whether carseats reduce injury and death, including large scale population studies, retrospective cohort studies and many others.

So the fact that there are no controlled randomized double blind studies of vaccines is a red herring. It works only on those who don’t understand science and statistics. On them, of course, it works very well.

Vaccine rejectionists, like many Americans, simply don’t understand statistics. This is a serious problem because Americans are exposed to a tremendous amount of statistical information and are required to make many decisions based that information.

An article in the journal Public Understanding of Science explains:

We live in a statistics-rich society: statistics permeates many aspects of life—from media, health, and work to citizenship. In the media, we can observe a growing emphasis on statistical results. This is particularly the case in health and medical reporting which tend to be the most compelling scientific issues for citizens … The understanding of these statistical components is crucial to help citizens participate in public debate and arrive at political decisions.

Statistical misunderstandings are very common and lead to cynicism about science and medicine.

Statistics requires the ability to consider things from a probabilistic perspective, and to employ quantitative technical and abstract concepts such as significance, margin of errors, and representativeness. Since these concepts are difficult to understand, statistical misunderstandings can often be observed in the everyday but also in the media and research results. It is important to clear up these misunderstandings, as they lead to the misuse of study results, and the development of a distrustful or cynical attitude toward statistics.

Vaccine rejectionists, you’ve been tricked … again. How many times do you have to be tricked before you realize that you are being victimized by your lack of knowledge of science and statistics?

 

N.B. I’ve closed the comments for this thread because it is in danger of crashing the site. Feel free to continue the discussion at The extraordinary conceitedness of being an anti-vaxxer.

1,869 Responses to “The latest “argument” of vaccine rejectionists”

  1. Amazed
    May 3, 2015 at 8:02 am #

    Dr Amy, I think this post will do what the first huge vaccine one did – shut the site down. Can you close the comments and ask the antis to please pack their nonsense and carry it to a newer post?

  2. Sue
    May 3, 2015 at 5:12 am #

    “The more BIG Pharma does to you,the less you seem to believe they are doing it.”

  3. Sue
    May 2, 2015 at 11:30 pm #

    I highly disgusted you would use the comparison of a car seat to suggest the reason why there is no double blind study of vaccines.. for one car seats do not effect the babies/child’s body health.. it is not toxic.. so in your opinion
    Amy Tuteur.. because of this there is no reason to study the safety of the toxic chemical we put into our babies and children.. Why do you not talk to all the parents and the children of vaccine injuries.. …

    • Wren
      May 3, 2015 at 4:58 am #

      Why do you believe that vaccines have not been studied, over and over and over in fact?

      • Sue
        May 3, 2015 at 6:43 am #

        Really you think a short study on the vaccines in childrens bodies compares to a life time of damage..REALLY

        • Wren
          May 3, 2015 at 6:55 am #

          Do you think that surveillance stops after the initial vaccine approval?

        • Proponent
          May 3, 2015 at 10:18 am #

          Sue: “Really you think a short study on the vaccines in childrens bodies compares to a life time of damage..REALLY”

          What ‘short study’?

          Be specific.. and provide a link and/or a name of this ‘short study’.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 10:26 am #

            How about you showing me all the studies done from scientist that are not part of BIG Pharma or paid for by BIG Pharma.. or a conflict interest.. please show me these very long studies from unbiased studies… before vaccines to make sure they are safe.. and after vaccination..Please do..and also a study that shows how safe it is to give so many vaccines at one time together.. Please do..

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:43 am #

            Stop evading..

            What ‘short study’?

            Be specific.. and provide a link and/or a name of this ‘short study’.

    • yugaya
      May 3, 2015 at 5:01 am #

      “why there is no double blind study of vaccines”

      For the same reason why there is no double blind study of baby car seats.

      • Sue
        May 3, 2015 at 6:11 am #

        Comparison car seat not physical.. and a baby flesh and blood.. oh what planet are you on you silly silly person….

        • yugaya
          May 3, 2015 at 6:14 am #

          “car seat not physical”

          Take this as a friendly advice and go and seek help ASAP.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis#Delusions

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:49 am #

            No car seat is not physical living breathing flesh and blood it is for the safety of a child as is a eat belt.. but our babies are living breathing little bundles of joy.. then there is vaccine damage….you are just repeating what is said above.. but don’t have the brains to understand…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:50 am #

            Yuyuga would need a railway spike through her head to be able to understand the absolute rubbish you are peddling.

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 7:01 am #

            More than one I’m afraid. :))) Whichever way you start tackling it, soaring brainpain is certain – whether I am to take that she believes that car seats are astral objects (pending disclosure on what she means when she uses the word “physical”) , or that she believes that “flesh and blood” are beyond the realm of reality that includes everyday objects like car seats, or that only things made of flesh and blood are the ones that exist physically in our world…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:08 am #

            We’ll both be happier not delving far into that morass, it’s not a great neighbourhood.

            And I’m not sure she is making the compelling case for no hereditary element in autism that she thinks she is.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:29 am #

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:15 am #

            Stop spamming.. stay on point..

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 7:33 am #

            Now she’s at her documentaries again. Neighbour, what about the two of us lucky ladies feel sentimental together? Remember what the great Lenin said? Something about giving the masses their movies because that’s the only thing they would understand, books being fat beyond their scope of reach? Of course, he was talking about indoctrinating into the One True Faith and showing what happened to those who fought back. But she makes such a compelling case about his sound reasoning. When unable to grasp a more complex concept, they jump up and down at anything they can see and they can never tell right from wrong. But they saw it, it looked good, so it must be true!

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:30 am #

            ha ha.. now the violent talk.. love to know you are discussing me.. what a privileged….

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

        • Who?
          May 3, 2015 at 6:16 am #

          Keep talking Sue you are the winner of the ‘sharing the provax story’ for today.

          You make all antivaxxers look like vicious morons.

          Easy work, you are well suited to it.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:50 am #

            More personal attacks honey.. you are certainly a nice person..lol

    • Proponent
      May 3, 2015 at 7:51 am #

      Why don’t you..

      i) Stop rushing onto forums and posting, commenting.
      ii) Take note of the communities and respective forums that you post on.. before you do? (Content, users, et al.)

      ‘Cause..

      By not doing any of the aforementioned.. you are like that someone that bursts into a room.. simply engaging their mouth before brain as an uninvited guest.

      Or, in other words.. an unwelcomed guest that seemingly feels it is their right to do and say as they please.

      And more to the point..

      There are some considerate and knowledgeable posters/commenters on this forum.. and you could do right, by yourself and your child.. by availing yourself of the informational resources here. Rather than that of alienating yourself through your adversarial approach.

      Some.. as I’ve read through comments (not all).. are living what you proclaim to be living and could be allies.. not.. foes. In short.. resources.. people to connect with, learn from.

    • yugaya
      May 3, 2015 at 9:40 am #

      “for one car seats .. it is not toxic..”

      I love it how the multitude of paranoid tendencies results in antivaxx crowd eating their own words: http://www.watoxics.org/toxicswatch/kids2019-car-seats-still-contain-dangerous-chemicals

      • Sue
        May 3, 2015 at 9:45 am #

        Oh dear yugaya..dear yugaya..dear yugaya.. are you really pulling words to bits dear yugaya….this is just a stupid as it can get dear yugaya.. you are such a wally..Oh don’t forget to post back dear yugaya.. I am so enjoying the laugh…

        • yugaya
          May 3, 2015 at 9:55 am #

          I see that you haven’t been able to come up with a side dig at my username. You need help with that?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:58 am #

            ??????? why would i need or even be bothered to have a side dig at your name.. I think it is your game to use that type of behavior.. You are like a little child.. saying such blo..dy ridiculous things..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 10:11 am #

            “??????? why would i need or even be bothered to have a side dig at your name..”

            Because that is what you have done in reply to Roadstergal. Not to mention adressing people with “HONEY”.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 10:21 am #

            I started using honey as someone called me honey.. and as I know that people responding to my post are one in the same.. using multiple names.. as to the using honey .. and thank you for being so interested in me.. I am over whelmed by your attention lol….

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:46 am #

            Sue: “Oh dear yugaya..dear yugaya..dear yugaya.. are you really pulling words to bits dear yugaya….this is just a stupid as it can get dear yugaya.. you are such a wally..Oh don’t forget to post back dear yugaya.. I am so enjoying the laugh…”

            No attempt at condescension and/or a ‘dig’, then?

            Of course, clearly it was.. since you added ‘stupid’ and ‘wally’.

  4. Dr Kitty
    May 2, 2015 at 2:55 pm #

    Nobody tell Chris we make insulin from bacteria which has been genetically modified to produce human insulin.
    Oh, and nobody tell him that we then add amino acids to the insulin molecules in order to change the duration of action.

    Because, I mean franken-bacteria, “synthetic” hormones not found in nature, drug companies making billions worldwide from insulin sales, people injecting themselves multiple times a day with this toxic artificial concoction, a diabetic epidemic in the developed world…it must be a conspiracy!!!!!
    There’s probably an autism/ eugenics agenda in there.

    Oh, wait, no…
    Diabetics now live longer, healthier lives than they have at any point in history.

    • Cobalt
      May 2, 2015 at 3:07 pm #

      Maybe no one should explain that despite years of sky high levels of HCG in my bloodstream, not only did my penis not shrink, I grew two new ones!

      • Wren
        May 2, 2015 at 3:11 pm #

        I only grew one new one.

        • Cobalt
          May 2, 2015 at 3:13 pm #

          With continued exposure, the odds of the second one making an appearance increase. Definitely a dose dependent risk.

      • Chris
        May 2, 2015 at 7:11 pm #

        Great. You do have a sense of humor. I was beginning to wonder.

        • Cobalt
          May 2, 2015 at 9:25 pm #

          The lies you believe and spread aren’t funny.

          • Sue
            May 2, 2015 at 11:44 pm #

            Lies .. This is the same old story if anyone disagrees with VACCINES ask questions.. they are either lairs.. misinformed or quacks.. Please tell me what is the cause of Autism .. and why it is now an epidemic.. and don’t tell me it is better diagnosis.. as where are all the thousands upon thousands of Autistic adults.. in their 30’s 40’s 50’s 60’s …and why are pole getting sicker and sicker in 2015… Oh yes Toxic chemicals in vaccines..GMO..ROUNDUP.. etc etc.. who is the liar???????? .

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 11:54 pm #

            Every single one of your demonstrably false claims (and they are all demonstrably false) is addressed down thread.

          • Roadstergal
            May 3, 2015 at 12:40 am #

            Jeez, yes. Come on, Sue, just read down thread a little…

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:08 am #

            By who people on BIG Pharma payroll..

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 1:09 am #

            Is there any evidence that would sway you whatsoever? Is there anything at all that you would not simply dismiss as propaganda?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 2:43 am #

            I was a believer once.. and i have lived with the devastation of vaccine damage.. I have seen the devastation of vaccine damage.. There needs to be studies on different vaccines given at the same time..and if vaccines are in society there needs to not be so many.we cannot stop everything.. and if you think we can well you have not thought this out very ell….To give give Hep B to a new born baby is criminal.. there needs to be choices.. If people want to vaccinate their children that is their choice.. FREEDOM of choice to make decisions about our own bodies and that of our families should not be placed in the states hands..Studies should be done on the after effects.. long term studies.. and on the n on vaccinated etc etc.. but no… how can this possible be right…

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:05 am #

            “and i have lived with the devastation of vaccine damage.. I have seen the devastation of vaccine damage..”
            Sure you have.

            ” There needs to be studies on different vaccines given at the same time”
            There are.

            “and if vaccines are in society there needs to not be so many.”
            Why not?

            “To give give Hep B to a new born baby is criminal.”
            How so?

            “Studies should be done on the after effects.. long term studies.. and on the n on vaccinated etc etc”

            There have been.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:33 am #

            Hey Nicky baby.. I don’t have a memory loss know what I wrote….. lol.. so funny…. Hey show me the many studies done please.. the long term ones that were done properly by non BIG Pharma and those who did not gain from BIG Pharma.. show me the independent studies that have been done when given a multitude of vaccines at one time to a baby/children…if these difference toxic chemicals even go together.. is there a reaction to putting all these chemicals together…. how long has the study been over.. 5 years.. 10 years.. 20 years… Mmm love to see these studies.. and now many out of these studies got other diseases. that there was no history of in their families.. Please show me Nicky baby…..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 6:04 am #

            Dear fellow shills of the higher order,

            I would really appreciate a paycheck.

            Thanks.

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:07 am #

            Yes I haven’t seen mine either.

          • Fallow
            May 2, 2015 at 11:58 pm #

            Well, you sure sound like a unimpeachable public health scholar.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:17 am #

            Oh I see so I have to be a health scholar to know there is a very very big concern that autism is an epidemic.. cancer rates have skyrocketed in our children.. neurological disease have skyrockets.. look and our children and people are getting sicker and this is 2015.. and they still use Chemo and Radiation treat cancer… and people like you are happy about this….. Well I am not…. And I am not happy seeing BIG Pharma making such prophets out of having their customers from cradle to the grave..I am not happy our babies are getting sicker.. But you are.. sad….

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 1:17 am #

            “and they still use Chemo and Radiation treat cancer… ”

            As opposed to?

          • Roadstergal
            May 3, 2015 at 1:43 am #

            Chemo cures formerly fatal childhood cancers. Every year chemo gets better and better (silly scientists, never satisfied). It’s a darn good option for sure.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 2:56 am #

            Exactly.. every time someone mentions other ways of combating cancer it is quackery.. but the cancer treatments generally kill the person with cancer before the cancer does.. and the quality of life using these treatments is just bl..dy cruel

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:18 am #

            Evidence please.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 4:16 am #

            Oh really.. you are joking …

          • Poogles
            May 3, 2015 at 1:37 am #

            “so I have to be a health scholar”

            Not necessarily, but being literate would help (hint: it isn’t “prophet” it’s “profit”).

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:04 am #

            Well isn’t BIG Pharma the prophets of so called vaccines?????

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 5:10 am #

            I am so thankful they use chemo and radiation to treat cancer. Having my mother alive so beats losing her to cancer.

            And isn’t it amazing how learning more about illnesses and being able to diagnose them leads to a higher incidence? It’s almost like things went undiagnosed because we didn’t know much about them and weren’t looking for them, isn’t it? Add in far fewer people dying and maimed by vaccine preventable diseases than in historical times, and a rise in childhood cancers, autism, etc are practically inevitable.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:16 am #

            And my mother died through the treatment.. If you are going to suggest this is a cure.. maybe you need to look at the statistics of Chemo and Radiation the very things that cause cancer MM wow people are so gullible..History will look back on this barbaric treatment and know exactly why it was around so long to make money for BIG Pharma…..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:18 am #

            And what about my several friends who are alive 10 or 20 years after cancer treatment. You provide an anecdote, I’ll provide 10 that disagree.

            Or are mine irrelevant anecdotes, since they don’t fit your world view.

            Just trying to play the game your way.

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 6:20 am #

            “Chemo and Radiation the very things that cause cancer”

            Interventions cause complications.

            Education causes learning disabilities.

            And so on…

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:38 am #

            Once again Kettle black.. what about the thousands who are alive from alternative treatments..

            And isn’t it sad you had so many many friends with cancer. another raging epidemic.. Mmm BIG Pharma.. all the GMO and pesticides (ROUNDUP) a cancer causing weed spary.. the cancer rates are rising so so fast.. anyone reading this go to this site.. see for yourself.. watch the videos

            http://thetruthaboutcancer.com/

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:41 am #

            The longer people live, not dying of measles and diabetes and other things we can now deal with, the more likely they are to get cancer.

            I suppose you hate GMO as well even though that means using less Roundup?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 8:29 am #

            I despise GMO and I will fight to my last breath to not allow it to take over Australia and New Zealand as it has done to America.. are you for real GMO OMG that says it all…

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 6:42 am #

            In all likelihood, future treatments will make current ones look barbaric. I hope they do. I hope we get easy, permanent, painless fixes for everything eventually. How that is relevant to what we have the capability to do today escapes me.

            Yes, among other things radiation and chemicals can be carcinogenic, but as it stands surgery, radiation and chemo are what we have that can actually treat and cure some cancers. Even though my grandfather’s lung cancer was too far advanced and too aggressive to be cured, I am thankful for those who can be cured and extremely thankful that my mother is still here over a decade after being treated for breast cancer.

            Dose and risk seem to be concepts that are very poorly understood by many anti-vaxers. The risk of radiation when there is no benefit is too high. When it carries the potential to cure cancer, that risk is more acceptable. And, always, the dose makes the poison.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:54 am #

            What burns and radiate our bodies what cuts our bodies open… this is good eh.. yes there maybe those who choose to go down that track.. and they are free to choose.. well for now that is.. but maybe you should watch the videos on “The Truth About Cancer” and maybe you should see how there are healthy alternatives..or at least side by side.. but you are so closed minded…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:56 am #

            Tell that to Jess Ainscough and her mother.

            Or did they not do it right?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:42 am #

            Have you any idea of the thousand upon thousand of people who I could name who are did from Radiation .. and Chemno treatment.. what sort of person are you .. you are sick…You would rather scare people off than give them a chance.. sick…
            http://thetruthaboutcancer.com/

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:43 am #

            Oh do us another long list!!!

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 7:00 am #

            I prefer treatments which have been proven to work, even with risks, to those which have not.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:49 am #

            Oh yes.. Radiation certainly has good out comes % .. NOt and what about CHEMO .. don’t think so.. and of course there is the vaccine for Gardasil who is destroying young lives.. and even if it did work would not know for 20.. 30.. even 40 years.. come on…

            Just look at one example of the many many times we the public as be lied to about the safety of vaccines..Gardasil

            One of the many many things that BIG Pharma does to manipulate and lie to the public.Read on.. and you want us to believe they are truthful… Merck Laboratories failed to use an inert placebo during clinical trials, thereby manipulating data and marketing Gardasil under false pretences.
            Gardasil vaccine: Spain joins growing list of countries to file criminal complaints against manufacturer

            Attorney Don Manuel Saez Ochoa filed a criminal complaint against Merck-Sanofi Pasteur Laboratories, Spanish National Health authorities, and the regional health authorities of the La Rioja province on behalf of Zuriñe Jimenez Guereño and her mother Doña Maria del Carmen Jimenez Guereño for injuries and disabilities suffered by Zuriñe after the administration of Gardasil. (Story by Norma Erickson, republished fromSaneVac.org)

            The complaint states that Merck Laboratories failed to use an inert placebo during clinical trials, thereby manipulating data and marketing Gardasil under false pretences. Despite complaints of several young women with similar new medical conditions after Gardasil injections, the Spanish health authorities ignored calls for a moratorium on the use of Gardasil until the safety issues were resolved.

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 8:36 am #

            Gardasil injuries? Most, if not all, of the massive claims of injury have been shown false.

            As for radiation, yep, it sure did work well. Mom’s still here, and she likes to joke about the added bonus of a boob lift on that side since it tightened everything up.

            Treatment isn’t always pleasant, and adults have the right to refuse it, but it still has the best cure rates out there.

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 8:40 am #

            Great your mum is well.

            The gardasil scare campaign is an outrage.

            When someone dies under treatment, the doctors acknowledge that. When someone dies using ‘alternative’ medicine, they are accused of doing it not quite properly, of not believing enough, or of being surrounded by negative energy. No responsibility there.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:32 am #

            OMG it is so easy for you to lie the rubbish that roles our of your mouth.. there is always doubt whether someone works for BIG Pharma or not.. but such lies you must be paid by BIG Pharma.. or you are just a narcissistic person..You actually have an admiration for yourself…and the rubbish you talk..

          • ArmyChick
            May 3, 2015 at 12:01 am #

            You have officially used up your question mark quota for the year.

          • Medwife
            May 3, 2015 at 12:21 am #

            Elipses, too.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:18 am #

            Oh great lol even control on how people write… ???????????

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 1:34 am #

            Do you think excessive punctuation somehow improves your point?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:03 am #

            Really this is all you got??????

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:06 am #

            No. But it annoys me all the same.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 1:01 am #

            “Please tell me what is the cause of Autism”
            Good question. Researchers have many hypotheses, and nearly as many leads, but the exact reasons have not yet been discovered.

            “as where are all the thousands upon thousands of Autistic adults.. in their 30’s 40’s 50’s 60’s”

            Living undiagnosed, mostly. Much like most mental conditions. Psychiatry sucked hard prior to the 70’s.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:07 am #

            YOu are telling me that all these beautiful children that were born NORMAL and changed over night were around years ago.. come on.. that is just another whitewash story you and BIG Pharma tell parents so they will believe that vaccines are safe….. and you know it….

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:11 am #

            No, I’m telling you they were born autistic.

            http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/03/26/294446735/brain-changes-suggest-autism-starts-in-the-womb

            Also, “normal” is a very value laden word, and is extremely judgmental.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:47 am #

            You have seen every autistic person and spoken to the families have you.. My son was definitely not autistic when he was born.. and there is no history way back both sides of my husbands family and mine of any disabilities..But you know what you say is not true don’t you Nicky..

            “That propaganda is good which leads to success, and that is bad which fails to achieve the desired result. It is not propaganda’s task to be intelligent, its task is to lead to success.”
            ― Joseph Goebbels

          • Poogles
            May 3, 2015 at 1:34 am #

            Many adults are being diagnosed as being on the Autism Spectrum, frequently after their child(ren) have been diagnosed. Also, the human lifespan has only continued to increase with every passing year – so on what data do you base the claim that we are getting “sicker and sicker” in 2015?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:02 am #

            YOu are kidding me.. you are telling me that the number of autism in adults is equivalent to the thousands upon thousand of children who are now diagnosed with autism.. I came from a small country town in New Zealand.. and i was one of the unlucky families whose son was diagnosed in the 1980’s…. no one in my town that I knew had even heard of autism.. now everyone knows what it is.. Do you really think that the countries with high autism rtes are going to be able to cope with the costs of looking after all these adults when their families can no longer.. And if vaccines are so safe.. why can no one in America sue the vaccine companies.. what is that about????? OH!!! Hope you can read my writing……

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:18 am #

            “YOu are kidding me.. you are telling me that the number of autism in adults is equivalent to the thousands upon thousand of children who are now diagnosed with autism”
            Yes.

            “no one in my town that I knew had even heard of autism.. now everyone knows what it is”
            They call this the “information age” for a reason.

            “And if vaccines are so safe.. why can no one in America sue the vaccine companies”

            We totally can.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:51 am #

            Ha ha.. you i word answers… well done Nicky….
            Joseph Goebbels was a doctor.. MMm he would have loved BIG Pharma..

            “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
            ― Joseph Goebbels

            Big Pharma Blackmailed Congress in 1982
            To understand how this happened, we have to turn the clock back to 1982. That is when four big drug companies (Merck, Wyeth, Lederle, Connaught) blackmailed Congress by threatening to stop selling vaccines in America unless a law was passed giving them complete immunity from prosecution. 21

            The pharmaceutical industry knew they were in big trouble because the old, crude whooping cough vaccine in the DPT shot was causing brain inflammation and death in many children; 22 the live oral polio vaccine was crippling children and adults with vaccine strain polio; 23 and Americans were filing lawsuits to hold drug companies responsible for the safety of their products.

          • KarenJJ
            May 3, 2015 at 4:21 am #

            Josef Goebbels had a PhD in literature and wasn’t a medical doctor.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:46 am #

            I stand corrected … he was the Minister of Propaganda..just like BIG Pharma.. Company of Propaganda. thanks for correcting me..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 4:40 am #

            In our family we have one child on the spectrum in our children’s generation, and I’m going 3 adults undiagnosed on the spectrum when you see my husband and his two siblings, one male, one female. Their aspie characteristics are very clear as we are now seeing what is called autistic/aspie among kids.

            So by those anecdotal numbers there are three times as many among current adults as there are among current kids.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:49 am #

            You are kidding me arn’t you.. you are suggesting to be an expert because of your family.. but when parents explain what has happened in their families to their children and with no history of autism you rubbish them… sadly you are just a Hippocratic….and you call yourself intelligent… Mmm I got news for you???

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 5:52 am #

            Not at all, I’m sharing our story as you shared yours. I’m sorry you think our story is worthless, since it doesn’t fit with your little agenda.

            Again, you are doing the provaxxers job for us, by ignoring us when we apply your values to our experience.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:20 am #

            Not worthless.. just erratic explanations.. and you think you are an expert.. that is the worrying concept..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:26 am #

            Not at all erratic. Same as yours. It’s just that our interpretation of our facts differs from your interpretation of your facts.

            That, in a nutshell, is why anecdotes are not evidence. It’s not worrying that similar anecdotes are interpreted differently, it is entirely expected.

            I know I’m not an expert, I leave interpretation of data to actual experts. You know, people who have studied the subject.

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 5:54 am #

            I am trying to get past the writing style. Forgive me if I get it wrong.

            You seem to be arguing that Who? Is hypocritical for using an anecdote while denying those of others.

            I think you are missing the point here. Anecdotes are and always will be just that. Studies have shown that diagnosis rather than incidence makes up most, if not all, of the increase in number of children with ASD.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:23 am #

            Welll as long as the diagnosis is by doctors and scientists you agree with.. if not they are just quacks.. they need to have the answers you want honey and that is not a good argument…

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 7:12 am #

            There have been changes is the diagnostic criteria. Children who would once have been seen as just weird, or alternatively as mentally retarded on the other end of the spectrum, as now diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:52 am #

            Oh get over yourself that is absolute rubbish rubbish rubbish… and where are all these 30 40 50 and 60 year old people hiding.. rubbish and you know it..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:57 am #

            Three in their fifties in my husband’s family.

            There is my friend’s husband, whose father was also aspie. Father never vaxxed for anything.

            Is that enough anecdata for you? Or doesn’t it count since it doesn’t support your point?

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 8:33 am #

            Which one are you looking for? I think we all remember the weird kids who would now be on the higher functioning end. I know at least 5 I went to high school with have now been diagnosed.

            If you look at numbers of mentally retarded in the past compared to now, well, there’s where the other end of the spectrum are.

            RainMan had a lot of fiction in it, but severely autistic children being hidden away certainly did happen.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:28 am #

            Oh go away you are just absolutely talking rubbish.. and i say to all those reading these post wanting answers.. if you believe this you would believe anything.. they are stating that the number of autism have gone up to epidemic rates.even the CDC admits this. what planet are you one you wally… you are a joke….

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:06 am #

            Being a hypocrite is what you are accusing me of, not hippocratic, that is the oath doctors used to take. Some still do I think.

            You’re wrong, by the way, about that. On the other hand it is hypocritcal of you to dismiss my anecdote while hanging your story on the anecdotes of others.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:42 am #

            Oh for goodness sake miss teacher.. get over yourself…miss correction.. lol….and hat are you hanging your beliefs on those scientist who are either paid for or have close contact to BIG Pharma.. Kettle Black//

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:45 am #

            I think your head is exploding.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:17 am #

            Kettle black

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 6:52 am #

            miss teacher, lol. So sweet.

            I can tell the howl of those who were barely able to scrape through first grade from a mile.

            You know why spelling is not such an easy thing? To show who never attended school. People like you.

            How, pray tell, am I supposed to take anything you write seriously when you can’t make basic distinctions? That’s right, I can’t and I won’t… honey.

          • Cobalt
            May 3, 2015 at 7:24 am #

            I’ve never seen a convincing argument that wasn’t a complete sentence.

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 7:41 am #

            I have.

            Gene Tierney

            But of course, her daughter’s tragedy figures nowhere in Sue’s loving concern for living small babies. Only “vaccine damaged” do. Those who were not autistic as babies, mind you.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:32 am #

            Part of your little troll circle as well .. No worries honey .. just dont post back honey…

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:35 am #

            You’re rambling again.

            Good job, your money is nearly safe!

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 8:02 am #

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/

            You know what ….THANK YOU for helping me spread the word on the dangers of vaccines..

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 9:02 am #

            Why… honey? You wound me so. Notice that I want you to keep posting.

            I don’t rely on movies, usually. I can read basic science instead and even understand it. I don’t need someone to shove their interpretation down my throat and visualize it for me. I can make the links myself.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:34 am #

            Guess what honey move on don’t read my post simple. or do you not understand the simplicity of that.. lol..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 8:17 am #

            EDIT: better example of dealing with functional illiteracy

            http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2000/04/illiteracy.htm

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 9:00 am #

            Thanks, yugaya. What a great link! Illiteracy matters in more than one way.

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 9:07 am #

            Is it a Scientology link? Is that THE L Ron Hubbard being quoted on the first page? Because the point is fair and valid, but L Ron Hubbard et al make me jumpy.

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 9:18 am #

            Yeah it was a good quote but the source was erm, of questionable nature to put it mildly. Thus the edit and a better fit link for the context ( patient literacy). 😀

          • SporkParade
            May 3, 2015 at 9:37 am #

            Okay, you want to know the real reason why autism numbers have seem to increased? It’s because we used to take the non-verbal or barely-verbal children, lock them away in institutions, and tell their parents to pretend they didn’t exist.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:43 am #

            Bull.. even the CDC has admitted to the enormous rise in autism numbers.. go away and do your homework properly you wally

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:39 am #

            Yes, as part of kid’s assessment parents get tested as well.

          • May 3, 2015 at 1:51 am #

            Why do you expect us to pay any attention to you when you have so horribly butchered the English language that you have rendered yourself unintelligible? If you want to claim to be educated and knowledgeable, then write like it.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:25 am #

            Oh Feminerd Feminerd Feminerd .. do you really think i give a damn.. and if that is the truth why are you posting to me.. it is because you read another
            post and thought you would have a go on the same topic.. we are not here for a spelling test you wally.. this is all you have OMG.. Do you really think intelligence is weighted on grammar.. you think by belittling people they will run away with their tails between their legs.. I am a tough old gal.. Don’t read what I post and don’t post back.. I will not be offended OK.. and certainly will not miss you….

          • May 3, 2015 at 3:36 am #

            Hey, I was offering constructive criticism. How you present yourself matters. I can’t read what you say, so no matter how brilliant it may be, I simply cannot understand you. If you want to be taken seriously, you should probably present yourself in a not-laughable way.

            No, the grammar criticism isn’t all I have. You’re so off base you’re not even wrong, and I don’t have the spoons to handle that level of inanity right now. Intelligence isn’t based on grammar, but education is usually expressed by proper diction. Your lack of it suggests you are poorly educated, which gives me precisely zero confidence in any of your assertions or conclusions.

            Prove me wrong. Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources. Surprise me.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 4:02 am #

            YOu are a sad person.. if you have the intelligence you think you have use it.. don’t try and demean someone else.. this shows me you have a lack of not only moral back bone.. but it is smoking mirrors.. in hope to discredit people who post.. It just make me want to post more.. and honey I don’t mind in the least if you don’t post back.. because you are as far off the subject as it can get…

          • May 3, 2015 at 4:11 am #

            *shrug* Your loss. Your approval or lack thereof matters naught to me.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:04 am #

            Lucky me.. and i care why

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:19 am #

            Feminerd: “Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources.”

            I’d settle for peer-reviewed sources.. do you have any Sue?

            And can you stay on point with your responses to posts?

            … …

            Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:43 am #

            More like

            Feminerd: “Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources.”

            Sue (projecting):”YOu are a sad person.. if you have the intelligence you think you have use it.. don’t try and demean someone else.. you have a lack of not only moral back bone.. but it is smoking mirrors.. in hope to discredit people who post…. because you are
            as far off the subject as it can get…”

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:03 am #

            Ha ha atack atack.. lol

            Doctors speaking of course this will not be good enough for Proponent but hey..it may just give those who question somewhere to start…

            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 6:11 am #

            You are spamming. Concentrate on one link at a time with summary and please do not post this shit list of links in its entirety again (you can do it).

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:25 am #

            Dont want anyone to miss it do we…….

            Good movies to watch fellow poster as well is .

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …
            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 8:00 am #

            Have you done any further research on these people?

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 4:34 am #

            It’s smoke and mirrors, not ‘smoking mirrors’.

            You demean and discredit yourself as you post nonsense.

            Like I said, keep at it. You are doing the pro-vax cause credit and assisting it every time you post.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:31 am #

            You are a bit if a domineering person are you not.. lol.. you are actually so silly you are funny.. and you are one of those people who thinks if they attacking people personally is enough and they may shut up.. and guess what.. I do not value your opinion however i find it funny.. Is this how you control those around you when they do not say and do as you want.. Mmmm I bet…

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:30 am #

            “they are either lairs.. misinformed or quacks.”

            Oh well, at least you diversified a bit, one of your colleagues further down in the comments claimed only luntacis and shills were responding to her here.

            I’ll abuse your lame pile of nonsense to post an OT link on evolution of the meaning of the word “quack”: http://www.igm-bosch.de/content/language1/downloads/EAHMH_4_08ME.pdf

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:17 am #

            Are you rally this stupid.. Lol

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 8:12 am #

            Why do you think I’m really stupid? Is it for finding desperate comfort in a bit of variety in your antivaxx narrative that you keep parroting, or for suggesting an interesting read as a distraction?

      • Proponent
        May 3, 2015 at 4:14 am #

        “I am not sure just what you are referencing in your post.. nor, do I understand it … however.. I believe it is worthy of an downvote”, the anti-vaxxer responded.

    • Chris
      May 2, 2015 at 7:19 pm #

      I bet you also wished that no one told me that the government mandates the injecting of infants, children, and pregnant mothers with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, bacterial contaminants, mycoplasma contaminants, and aborted human fetal DNA contaminants, with no proper prior long term human testing of side effects.

      Death, and autoimmune disorders are included in the list of side effects of these vaccines, which is why no one should be coerced into injecting their children with them.

      • Wren
        May 2, 2015 at 7:29 pm #

        I can’t speak for Dr Kitty but I sure wish no one had spread such misinformation.

        • Chris
          May 2, 2015 at 7:34 pm #

          Every word is true and indisputable. You probably also “wish no one had spread” the true information that those millions of people newly vaccinated with live virus can shed or infect others.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 7:41 pm #

            Misinformation is, by definition, not true and indisputable.

          • Sue
            May 2, 2015 at 11:40 pm #

            That is correct.. BIG Pharma Misinforms all the time.. to make bigger prophets for its shareholders……TRUE

          • Who?
            May 2, 2015 at 11:53 pm #

            If shareholders were prophets they would all be bazillionaires.

            This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:07 am #

            Once again an impressive piece of knowledge.. Lol.. and you want to be believed.. Not likely….

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 1:58 am #

            Just keep talking, you are the easiest antivaxxer to beat.

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:11 am #

            Who?.. It’s not a fair fight or challenge, to be fair.

            Think you should be handicapped in some way.. maybe tie your hands behind your back and make you type your posts with your nose?

            … …

            While underwater?

            😉

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 4:43 am #

            I have a very pointy nose, if you have a snorkel and waterproof keyboard I’m totally up for it!

            We should be encouraging Sue, her poorly expressed ranting nearly does the provax job for us by making anti vaxxers look really bad.

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:26 am #

            While she’s at it how about we inquire about her views on childbirth? Such condescending tone of TRUE knowledge holder shouldn’t all be wasted on vaccines.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:44 am #

            Ha ha.. If I am so easy to beat as you stated.. ignore me..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:47 am #

            No, it’s much more fun this way. I have no need to beat you, you are doing that yourself.

            If you really believe this nonsense you are peddling, the best thing you can do to promote it is go quiet, very quiet. Better to be quiet and thought a fool than express yourself and confirm everyone’s opinion.

            But you can’t resist biting back.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:08 am #

            Ha ha.. it is not fun you are having it is trying to chuck personal abuse.. and hoping it will stick like mus.. as you worry about people like me.. if you were not worried you would not bother with me.. but you will post back again i know you will haha

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 7:38 am #

            Oh honey, Who doesn’t deserve any attention. She’s evil. I can feel your pain. You were abused at school, evil teachers tortured you with them big and small words, tried to hammer spelling into your poor little brain… and now, you’re being abused again for something that’s simply out of your control. Here, take this lovely handkerchief.

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:39 am #

            You’re a beautiful soul, Amazed.

          • Amazed
            May 3, 2015 at 7:54 am #

            *blushes*

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 8:15 am #

            Weak people talk like you..sadly I am not saying you a weak but this is the talk of those who did bully at school and miss it so much continue to try and bully anyone they can.. weak …

            those who are reading these post don’t be put of with your journey to ind answers… to find the truth..

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/.

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Poogles
            May 3, 2015 at 12:51 am #

            Honey, if you’re going to argue with a bunch of people who have advanced degrees (which actually doesn’t include me – only a BA here), at least proofread your writing. If this is your “proofread” writing, just give up now, you’re barely literate, let alone scientifically literate.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 2:32 am #

            Honey everyone is entitled to a say.. and if this is your argument .. you feel that unless you can spell.. or are educated.. not that you know what I am.. cannot
            have a say about their bodies .. and what goes in them. And their opinions. It is a very sad world.. there is definitely in your statement a class distinction.. and you expect to be believed.. Your tactics our not very
            bright??? We are not here to show how well we spell.. and I am not bothered by such utter rubbish..

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:07 am #

            “Today, the spectrum of antivaccinationists ranges from people who are
            simply ignorant about science (or “innumerate” — unable to understand
            and incorporate concepts of risk and probability into science-grounded
            decision making) to a radical fringe element who use deliberate mistruths, intimidation, falsified data, and threats of violence in efforts to prevent the use of vaccines and to silence critics.

            Antivaccinationists tend toward complete mistrust of government and manufacturers, conspiratorial thinking, denialism, low cognitive complexity in thinking patterns, reasoning flaws, and a habit of substituting emotional anecdotes for data.5 Their efforts have had disruptive and costly effects, including damage to individual and community well-being from outbreaks of previously controlled diseases, withdrawal of vaccine manufacturers from the market, compromising of national security (in the case of anthrax and smallpox vaccines), and lost productivity.2”

            (Source: “The Age-Old Struggle against the Antivaccinationists”

            Gregory A. Poland, M.D., and Robert M. Jacobson, M.D.

            N Engl J Med 2011; 364:97-99January 13, 2011DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1010594)

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:55 am #

            There you go again personnel attacks.. and trying to say someone who does not agree with what you re saying and believe must have low intelligence.. kettle black… Yes if I named doctors who are highly intelligent you would say what… they are quacks.. but they must be intelligent surely???? Please don’t say you cannot get Youtube sites with below info.. you have the doctors names use that…

            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 6:50 am #

            Actually, no one is claiming those who disagree are of low intelligence. We are all ignorant of some things. It just so happens that most antivaxers are ignorant of probability, risk and the science involved.

            Even highly intelligent people can be wrong. Every person on this earth is subject to cognitive biases and logical fallacies. Anecdotes are very persuasive to most, despite their actual low value in determining truth. The main role of science is to help us overcome the flaws in human thinking to find the truth, or as close to it as we can come.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            May 3, 2015 at 6:11 am #

            You may not be here to show how well you spell, but there is a reason that languages use standardised spelling and grammar. When you misuse a language, it makes it very difficult for other people to understand what you are trying to say. For example, when you stated that you think it is better to help people “not get deceases”, it sounds like you were saying (albeit with poor grammar) that you think it is better if people do not die. But as far as I can guess from the context and from your other posts, you were actually advocating for disease prevention. Because you either do not understand or do not care about the very different meanings of the words “disease” and “decease”, your statement has a completely different meaning (one that’s pretty nonsensical really).

            I’m assuming that the reason that you are posting here is because you want other people to hear your opinion and come round to your way of thinking. But if you cannot clearly communicate in the first place then how can you expect to influence anyone?

            I would also argue that if you cannot use basic grammar, then it would make me question your ability to comprehend the scientific literature involving vaccination.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:16 am #

            Oh goodness me.. if people have typo’s.. haha big deal.. but really it is like a little click.. one started about the spelling and the rest get on the same trip..Honye it dos not faze me one little bit.. but if you really think I am a wast of time.. don’t post to me.. oh but you need to as you are worried about people like me and it is your job to discredit and mislead othrrd from the truth… … so get off subject do all you can to keep me off subject.. oh well will just have to start posting sites atc every time you post back.. that way the people asking question will have places to look.. you are playing a game and I know it.. lol I will post back to you but will not answer you honey…
            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 7:18 am #

            Don’t stop, you’ll be getting a shill check from Big Pharma soon all the good work you’re doing.

            Are you sure you’re not an undercover provaxxer?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:59 am #

            Changing tactic are you.. you are so funny.. do you have a script in front of you that says what to do
            Step by Step…You are sure going to great lengths to discredit me.. I am honored..

            All you people out there reading these posts.. do your homework.. go to this site..

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/

            and listen to the doctors and their concerns about vaccine damage and watch this documentaries.. it certainly will give you some food for thought…Make your own decisions ton not be fooled by the bully tactics on this site…

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 8:04 am #

            You discredit and demean yourself with your poor communication skills, your rubbish references and your silly ignorant belligerence.

            The people you quote are lying charlatans who steal from the desperate and gullible, by promising things they can’t deliver and spreading fear.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:21 am #

            Oh Who?.. there must not be much up top.. as you keep repeating yourself.. over and over again.. suggesting I am discrediting and demeaning myself…. come on the truth is you want to try and discredit me for vaccine damage.. Honey irt is BIG PHarma who use fer against poor parents.. and sadly you now it…. You have mentioned that I am not worth talking to but you keep coming back to me time and time again Why?? You don’t faze me.. so keep it up .. it gives me a chance to share more honest information and i thank you for that..

            As follows statments form doctors…

            “My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the United States each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given children. The pertussis vaccine is the most likely villain, but it could also be one or more of the others.” –Dr. Mendelsohn, M.D.

            “Delay of DPT immunisation until 2 years of age in Japan has resulted in a dramatic decline in adverse side effects. In the period of 1970-1974, when DPT vaccination was begun at 3 to 5 months of age, the Japanese national compensation system paid out claims for 57 permanent severe damage vaccine cases, and 37 deaths. During the ensuing six year period 1975-1980, when DPT injections were delayed to 24 months of age, severe reactions from the vaccine were reduced to a total of eight with three deaths. This represents an 85 to 90 percent reduction in severe cases of damage and death.” –Raymond Obomsawin, M.D.

            “This report describes six mothers who received live virus vaccines and one who received a Hepatitis B vaccine during pregnancy after having received an MMR booster five months prior to conception. All the children who resulted from these pregnancies have had developmental problems, six out seven (85%) were diagnosed with autism, and the seventh seems to exhibit symptoms often associated with autistic spectrum disorders.” –F. EdwardYazbak, MD

            “Every day new parents are ringing us. They all have the same tragic story. Healthy baby, child, teenager, usually a boy, given the DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus) or DT (diphtheria and tetanus), MMR or MMR booster followed by a sudden fall or slow, but steady decline into autism or other spectrums disorder.”–The Hope Project (Ireland)

            “There is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases. To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects.” — Dr. Viera Scheibner

            “The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are changing our genetic code through vaccination.” –Guylaine Lanctot M.D.

            Dr. Michael Odent has written a letter in the JAMA (1994) where his figures show a five times higher rate of asthma in pertussis immunised children compared to non-immunised children. He is also quoted in the International Vaccination Newsletter (Sept. 1994): “Immunised children have more ear infections and spend more days in hospital.”

            In the May 24, 1996, New Zealand Medical Journal, J. Barthelow Classen, MD, a former researcher at the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the founder and CEO of Classen Immunotherapies in Baltimore, reported that juvenile diabetes increased 60 per cent following a massive hepatitis B vaccination campaign for babies six weeks or older in New Zealand from 1988 to 1991. In the October 22, 1997, Infectious Diseases in Clinical Practice, Classen showed that Finland’s incidence of diabetes increased 147 per cent in children under five after three new vaccines were introduced in the 1970s, and that diabetes increased 40 per cent in children aged 5 to 9 after the addition of the MMR and Hib vaccines in the 1980s. He concluded that “the rise in IDDM [juvenile onset diabetes] in the different age groups correlated with the number of vaccines given.”

            http://www.vaclib.org/basic/quotes.htm

          • Bugsy
            May 3, 2015 at 10:43 am #

            Yep. Up here in Vancouver, we’ve already had two of these types of outbreaks in the past few months…in each case, it’s been passengers coming in on flights from China who were contagious at the time of flight.

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:03 am #

            “.. because I said so”, Sue.

            Well.. that certainly settles the matter..

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 4:18 am #

            In you mind my dear it does in your mind.. Lol

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

            Yes, I wish people would not spread dangerous medical misinformation that kills people. Does that make me somehow evil in your mind?

      • Nick Sanders
        May 2, 2015 at 8:19 pm #

        Yes, we do indeed wish no one had filled your head with lies.

        • Sue
          May 2, 2015 at 11:38 pm #

          Lies you say.. 1 case of measles diagnosed to 7000 cases of autism.. Who is lying??????

          • Who?
            May 2, 2015 at 11:52 pm #

            You may believe what you are saying-and so not be lying-but what you say is incorrect.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:00 am #

            Why because you say it is…. OMG and we are suppose to trust your word….

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:01 am #

            Sue:

            Comments 586
            454 Upvotes

            I don’t think you are doing this right..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:22 am #

            Or she is in a wrong place.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:06 am #

            Oh this is a competition is it..(I thpught it was about caring for our babies and children and the vaccine damaged..) those paid by BIG Pharma of course will get vote of up votes.. also paid by BIG Pharma honey

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 12:47 am #

            Do you know why there are so few cases of measles?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 1:00 am #

            Do you???? Quite honestly that bull has had its day.. and the consequences of vaccines are the very reason there is so many more cancers..(Childhood Cancer has sky rocketed.. WHY??) air infections diabetes.. etc etc neurological disorders.. and are you telling me that the epidemic of autism is not a concern???? BIG Pharma is making billions and our children are getting sicker.. cradle to the grave.. that is what BIG Pharma wants.. money money money….

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:10 am #

            Really .. you put a chart on there and that is your argument.. OMG and you are going on that.. blow any other consequences through vaccination.. and as i am sure you are well aware of there is a multitude of charts.. but of course your one is true.. lol

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:13 am #

            The data in the chart is from the CDC:

            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035381.htm
            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5653a1.htm

            If you wish to dispute it, take it up with them.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 4:03 am #

            Oh you are kidding me arn’t you CDC BIG Pharmas bestie.. come on Nicky you can o better than that…

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:20 am #

            Obvious troll is now.. more obvious.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:39 am #

            OH and what is the meaning of TROLL to you.. people who ask questions people who do not agree with you… You are a joke .. it is such a sad thing that to disagree with people that are so into vaccines is to be called names… personally attacks.. sad and you call yourself Proponent.. what is Proponent about you honey??? If you want to call be a TROLL do so.. .. if you want to throw mud do so.. you could not do anything to me and make me vulnerable.. I have had a reasonable tough life.. and I say reasonable.. as there is a lot of people really suffering out there.. but having a vaccine injured child has been hard.. it has taken it tole on my family and myself.. but you go ahead my dear and chuck your sad abuse.. and this is what people like you do.. Sad…If I can get one persons interest up to do their own homework I will be happy .. so go for it

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 2:35 am #

            Do You?? And do you know why there is a epidemic of autism….now???? And why childhood cancer has skyrocketed.. NO.. as long as BIG Pharma make its money you seem happy…..

            Hygiene and Better Nutrition is Responsible for the
            Reduction in Disease Rates….. that is a given…

            Continuing measles outbreaks signal increasing incidence comparable with the prevaccine era. In the meantime, outbreaks of measles in vaccinated children have continued and intensified to this day. Contemporary observations of the ineffectiveness of vaccination indicate that the incidence of measles has increased and has not continued decreasing as it did for some 100 years before any type of measles vaccination was introduced. Conrad et al. (1971) published about the dynamics of measles in the US in the last four years and conceded that measles was on the increase and that “eradication, if possible,
            now seems far in the future”. Barratta et al. (1970) investigated an outbreak in Florida from December 1968 to February 1969 and found little difference in the incidence of measles in vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Right through the 1980s, measles outbreaks in fully vaccinated children have continued all over the US and all other countries with high vaccination rates all over the world. Robertson et al. (1992) wrote that in 1985 and 1986. 152 measles outbreaks in US school-age children occurred among persons who had previously
            received measles vaccine. “Every 2-3 years, there is an upsurge of measles irrespective of vaccination compliance”. To cap it all: the largely unvaccinated Amish (they claim religious exemption) had not reported a single case of measles between 1970 and December 1987, for 18 years (Sutter et al. 1991). It is quite likely that a similar situation would have applied to outside communities without any vaccination and that measles vaccination had actually kept measles alive and kicking. According to Hedrich (1933), there is a variety of dynamics of measles occurrence, from 2-3 years to up to 18 years, as later also witnessed by the unvaccinated Amish. – See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/outbreaks-of-measles-in-vaccinated-children-intensifying/#sthash.qtpd4JQ3.dpuf

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:08 am #

            You already replied to the comment once.

            Your “source” only quotes decades old studies, all but one of which were published before the second dose was added to the schedule, and the one that was published afterwards only looked at the time before.

      • Who?
        May 2, 2015 at 11:52 pm #

        What government mandates injecting anything into anyone?

        • yugaya
          May 3, 2015 at 5:21 am #

          My government does mandate childhood vaccinations. We have 12 million tourists a year which is more than our population, and most of these come from places where people “do their research” into vaccines, so the risks of VPDs are quite real.

    • Sue
      May 2, 2015 at 11:37 pm #

      There is also thousand upon thousands of more people diagnosed with diseases.. which then also makes them a cash cow for BIG Pharma.. I would say it is better to try and help people not get deceases.. To educate on way to not get diabetes.. any good doctor would be promote health and how to stay healthy .. Yes diabetics may well need mediation/insulin.. but have you ever talked to them about healthy living.. good food.. foods that help.. or just written another script….

      • Who?
        May 2, 2015 at 11:51 pm #

        Once they get deceases only the undertakers make money out of them-well, their estates.

        Lost the will to read or care after that clanger, but thanks for participating.

        • Sue
          May 3, 2015 at 1:05 am #

          Oh and BIG Pharma does not prophet from sick people.. Undertakers.. that is your argument.. Sad really sad.. A person can only die once..and i would like to see our babies/children people have a healthy life.. not rely on BIG Pharma to medicate and put toxic chemical into us for prophets…. But BIG Pharma can certainly make a lot of money our of disease.. ever you can not possible argue that point….

          • Poogles
            May 3, 2015 at 1:29 am #

            “Oh and BIG Pharma does not prophet from sick people”

            First, “profit”, not “prophet”. Second, are you serious? Do you not have any idea what hospitalization and intensive care cost in the US?? Big Pharma would make much, much more money on treating people who catch pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, polio, etc., than on giving them vaccines (which make very, very little PROFIT for the companies who produce them, and even less for the doctors who administer them) to prevent those illnesses in the first place.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:11 am #

            HONEY they do.. all the diseases vaccines cause..

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 8:39 am #

            I don’t know if it is a good idea to ask you the following question.. however.. throwing caution to the wind..

            Do you think/feel/believe.. that autism is a disease?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:39 am #

            Well I will throw caution to the wind and reply…. In most cases I believe it is a damaged person from vaccines..and I do not believe it is a disease…..

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:42 am #

            Sue: “..and I do not believe it is a disease…..”

            Ok.. good. At least that part of the equation has been established.

            Coming back full circle..

            How does ‘Big Pharma’ make money off of treating autistics, then?

          • Bugsy
            May 3, 2015 at 10:36 am #

            “Prophet” must have been a Freudian slip. Could be my pregnancy brain at work, but it’s making me laugh. 🙂

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 1:54 am #

            You’re a sweetie, it’s ‘profit from’ or be a prophet, that is see the future.

            Lost interest again.

      • Roadstergal
        May 3, 2015 at 12:37 am #

        You do know that Type 1 diabetes is a genetic autoimmune disease?

        And I really never believe alt-med shills when they say docs don’t talk to patients about preventive medicine and nutrition. My docs always talk to me about nutrition and preventive medicine (including vaccines).

      • Poogles
        May 3, 2015 at 1:15 am #

        “I would say it is better to try and help people not get deceases[sic]… ”

        Oh my gawd, I have such great news for you – there are these things called “vaccines” that allow our immune systems to build up resistance to diseases we’ve never even had, so that we have an “army” at the ready if we should ever actually encounter the disease (which, hopefully, thanks to herd immunity, doesn’t even happen). This gives us a HUGE advantage when encountering a disease in the wild for the first time – our immune system knows exactly what to look for and how to take it down (like a mugshot of a criminal, but even better) – meaning we either never even get sick (because our “informed” immune system has found and destroyed the “invaders” before they can even have an effect) or we only get a little sick. Science is awesome, don’t you think? 😀

        • Sue
          May 3, 2015 at 2:53 am #

          I have had the childhood sickness/disease etc.. and measles was one.. and I now have a life time immunity.. and have given my children healthy antibodies though breast feeding etc.. I also once believed without question.. and paid a very high price so don’t tell me this rubbish about vaccine.. we once thought antibiotics was the miracle of miracle.. and yes it saved a lot of lives.. but at what price…. look at the super bugs now..Mother Nature is a wonderful thing.. and yes he can be cruel as well.. but Humans beings are not getting stronger.. we are getting sicker .. 2015 and we still use things like Chemo and Radiation.. get real….You may think that you are right.. but the future will prove the devastation that is happening right now. and the proof is there .. look at the epidemic of autism.. come on…that is just one of the many many skyrocketing childrens illness/disabilities..I suppose you love GMO as well

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:15 am #

            You get lifetime immunity from a vaccine, while skipping the risks of things like pneumonia and encephalopathy. And vaccines do not lead to superbugs.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 4:15 am #

            Well Nicky you sure do not know your stuff.. firstly it has been proven vaccines do not give a life
            time immunity that is why they give booster shots.. and they do not work… secondly your rubbish on pneumonia and encephalitic is not a common occurrence. But Autism is a common occurrence. plus all the debilitating deceases caused through vaccines and thirdly.. I never said vaccines lead to super-bugs.. I was talking about the over use of antibiotics.. BUT GIVE IT TIME..

            Also life time immunity comes from getting the disease.. and not vaccines..

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 4:23 am #

            Back that stuff up.. you can do it, Sue!

            … …

            Maybe?

            … …

            Most likely.. no.

            Moving towards.. improbable.. and.. impossible.

            Unless.. we move into another dimension of time and space..

          • yugaya
            May 3, 2015 at 5:16 am #

            Now I’m tempted to make an analogy with Dante’s Inferno and classify all the vaccine-related crazies into nine circles of antivaxx hell for future reference and better understanding of their universe.

            I’m also tempted to file a VAERS report because reading Sue’s ramblings is definitely causing a “vaccine-related injury” at this point.

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 8:10 am #

            And.. it would probably be accepted by VAERS..

            “How vaccine litigation distorts the VAERS database”

            “Unfortunately, the VAERS database is highly unreliable. The reason is
            that anyone can submit a report to it, and no one actually verifies the
            accuracy of the report. Indeed, James Laidler once tested the system by
            submitting a report that the influenza virus had turned him into The Incredible Hulk.

            The report was accepted and duly entered into the database. This report was so out of the ordinary that a representative actually contacted him and, amazingly, asked his permission to remove the report from the database (proving that it’s not easy being green). If Laidler had not given it, the report of an adverse reaction in which the flu vaccine turned a man into a huge, immensely powerful green monster would still be in VAERS.”

            (Source: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/18/how-vaccine-litigation-distorts-the-vaer/ )

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 5:43 am #

            He we go again Proponent.. another silly silly attack.. “another dimension of time and space..” what utter rubbish..Are you protecting Nicky.. how nice.. and he backs so much up with truth … Lol

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 8:02 am #

            Stay on point.. post some verifiable and creditable sources..

          • Katia
            May 3, 2015 at 10:02 am #

            Many vaccines give life-long immunity, some few (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) require boosters.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 10:07 am #

            Measles deaths were virtually nonexistent prior to introduction of vaccine, which is now triggering outbreaks
            Some will try to argue that measles deaths are essentially nonexistent now because of measles vaccines, the first of which was introduced in 1963. But this argument holds no water — U.S. measles mortality data shows that deaths from measles rapidly declined in the years leading up to when the first vaccine was introduced, validating the success of improved sanitation and better nutrition in making measles a non-problem.

            Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/048518_measles_vaccines_CDC_data.html#ixzz3Z5I2mNGb

          • Katia
            May 3, 2015 at 10:08 am #

            Oh, c’mon Sue, that’s nutty even for you! There were 400-500 deaths a year in the US alone in the pre-vaccine days, right up until the vaccine became available.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 10:13 am #

            400 to 500 you say… and yet you do not even mention the vaccine damage or the deaths caused through vaccinated the injuries… are these deaths n not worth a mention….400 to 500 you say.. what is it 400 or 500??

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:14 am #

            Stay on point.. stop evading and/or deflecting and/or..

          • Katia
            May 3, 2015 at 10:47 am #

            It varied slightly from year to year, as measles was a bit cyclical. In the 60s, the population of the US was about half what it is now, as well.

            Please post a link to a CREDIBLE source for even ONE death due to measles vaccine.

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:12 am #

            Natural News is crap.. period.

            Cite something else.

          • fiftyfifty1
            May 3, 2015 at 8:54 am #

            ” we once thought antibiotics was the miracle of miracle.. and yes it saved a lot of lives.. but at what price…. look at the super bugs now”

            According to your logic, this shouldn’t be a problem. You can just go back to the good ol’ days and treat any bacterial infection that you happen to get with good nutrition. You should be fine, no?

            Yes, some bacteria have evolved antibiotic resistance. But even the ones that have developed resistance to multiple antibiotics are no more dangerous than plain old bacteria were before the invention of antibiotics. They are not “super bugs”.

            You follow good nutrition practices, no? What have you got to fear? Let your immune system do what it was made to do!

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 9:00 am #

            I wonder if the evils of Big Pharma would be enough to stop those with these views coming for treatment if they thought it was needed? Like those who believe birth is inherently safe, especially with yoga, positive thinking and an expensive midwife nearby, surely the well nourished would spurn medical care?

            Or, will they wilt and allow the dastardly drugs that work to actually work for them? And if they do, are they re-thinking their views, or back to the same old story?

      • Dr Kitty
        May 3, 2015 at 7:37 am #

        Here’s how it goes Sue, just how you know.
        We talk about healthy diet and lifestyle at each visit. If someone has a slightly elevated HBA1C or lipid profile I will advise they increase their activity, decrease their dietary fat and sugar intake, quit smoking and reduce alcohol. Then I suggest we check the levels again in 3-6months. I offer input from a dietician, a free 12 week exercise scheme, appointments with a smoking cessation advisor, commercial weight loss programmes and Addiction services if alcohol is a issue.

        THEN AND ONLY THEN, if they have either tried and failed to implement necessary changes, or if the suggested changes haven’t altered their readings enough for us to be comfortable (and it is “us”- I don’t ultimately decide whether to take medication) I may suggest medication.

        Of course that doesn’t happen with the T1DM patients.
        They get the insulin straight away, because dying from DKA while you tinker with your diet is not a good treatment plan.

        The truth is that diseases are multi factorial, and diet and lifestyle changes will only help some people, and only so much.

        I can also hand out healthy eating leaflets and nicotine gum all day long, and my patients may still choose to chain smoke while drinking margaritas and eating ice cream, which is their right.

        You may live in a world where one conversation with a doctor will lead to dramatic and permanent lifestyle changes. I live in the real one, where it doesn’t.

        • Sue
          May 3, 2015 at 8:09 am #

          I don’t disagree with you at all.. But the changes and mind set need to be started much younger.. at school.. at home… Why do we not teach children about food.. really teach them.. why do we not teach them about choices.. planting and growing their own food.organic. The dangers of GMO the list goes on.. why do we not expect the fast food places to have more responsibility…. why do we allow such preservatives in our foods.. why are you not speaking our about this… we are what we eat….

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 8:29 am #

            I am in the UK, so my children likely get a different education to yours. They are taught about food choices, both at school and home. Their school even has a garden in which food is grown and the children learn, from time to time, how to prepare common foods.

            They are not taught about unproven benefits of organic food or unproven harms of GMO, specifically because those are unproven.

            How this relates to vaccine refusal is a mystery though, as the two are not the same thing.

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 8:34 am #

            Confusing, isn’t it?

            And if you are anti-gmo and anti roundup you had better be ready to live on the insects that eat crops. Which might be fine as far as protein goes but might leave a bit to be desired in other areas.

            And, while I’m at it, that’s lovely but why should schools be doing it? Kids eat mostly at home, surely?

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:25 am #

            Firstly I was answering a post to someone else.. secondly really UK teaches all that lucky you.. …. And I have know doubt you would not know nor understand the benefits of organic food.. that about sums it up.. Lol

          • Fallow
            May 3, 2015 at 9:41 am #

            Define “organic”. Give a coherent, thorough, precise definition of what you mean by that word. If you think that’s asking too much, you aren’t fit to discuss these issues at all.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 9:55 am #

            I will give you my view.. and will not be baited by your behavior.. and way you post .. however I am thinking that you may have more than one name …. are you bright enough to understand that statement ….
            Organic is how farmers grow and process agricultural products, their farming practices are intended to
            encourage soil and water conservation and reduce pollution. No pesticides.. Better for the environment. No pesticides means healthier soil, water, and wildlife.. However you perception on organic in your part of the world may well be different to mine…

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:11 am #

            In your part of the world.. what does the following mean to you?

            Despite the consolidated structure of the organics sector, it remains largely independent from specific Government support and regulation. Organic certification standards are not food safety standards. Organic agricultural production and food is subject to the same regulatory and legislative requirements as apply to other forms of agricultural production.”

            (Source: New Zealand Food Safety Authority | “NZFSA Policy on Organic Food: A Background Paper” – October 2008

            There may be more current papers.. feel free to cite them and/or if you’ve found any others)

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 10:19 am #

            So you are at the belief if the government is not involved you are not interested..Oh and by the way i do not now live in New Zealand..

            Complying with the Fair Trading Act 1986

            Marketing products as organic

            If your product is organic, you may say this on the label. In New Zealand, marketing claims and use of the term ‘organic’ on food labels is controlled through the Fair Trading Act 1986. This means that:

            representations about food must be truthful, accurate and must not mislead a consumer

            you must be able to be demonstrate that products labelled as ‘organic’ are produced organically

            if you claim that your products are ‘certified organic’, you must be able to back to this claim up with a certificate.

            Usage of the term ‘organic’ under the Fair Trading Act 1986 is enforced by the Commerce Commission.

          • Proponent
            May 3, 2015 at 10:36 am #

            Sue: “Oh and by the way i do not now live in New Zealand..”

            Ok.. but.. you have still not addressed the question posed.. stop.. evading and/or deflecting.

            What does the following mean to you?

            “Despite the consolidated structure of the organics sector, it remains largely independent from specific Government support and regulation. Organic certification standards are not food safety standards. Organic agricultural production and food is subject to the same regulatory and legislative requirements as apply to other forms of agricultural production.”

            (p.s. Sue: “So you are at the belief if the government is not involved you are not interested..”

            The government is already involved.. for one, you just cited a New Zealand piece of legislation – Fair Trading Act 1986.)

  5. The Computer Ate My Nym
    May 1, 2015 at 12:06 pm #

    BTW, there’s no autism epidemic. The incidence of the autistic phenotype is stable. The incidence of the diagnosis is increasing with heightened clinical awareness.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25922345

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19737795

    Vaccinations didn’t cause the “autism epidemic” because there is no such thing. It’s imaginary.

    • ciaparker2
      May 1, 2015 at 12:28 pm #

      Yeah, that’s what the vaccine companies would have people believe. In reality, the numbers of autistic kids have exploded a hundred-fold in the US in the last thirty years.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 1, 2015 at 12:32 pm #

        Nope. The diagnosis has expanded vastly but the number of people with the condition has not changed. Nor do the authors of either of the articles have any connection to pharma. They’re epidemiologists. Pharma isn’t even interested in them. I know you’d like to believe that it’s all a pharma conspiracy, but it’s not.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 1, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

        Actually, on thinking about it, my last reply may have been unfair. A better reply would have been: What’s your evidence that there is a true increase in autism in the US in the past 30 years?

        • ciaparker2
          May 1, 2015 at 9:12 pm #

          Read the above-linked article and you’ll see.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 10:07 pm #

            I don’t read articles by groups that want to kill me. Sorry. Find a reference from someone who is not advocating eugenics and I’ll be happy to look at it.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:22 pm #

            Nowhere in the article is eugenics even suggested, although I regret its absence in your case. This site is one of the nastiest I’ve ever seen.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 10:37 pm #

            You are a horrible person.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 5:21 pm #

            She really is. I just don’t understand people who constantly lie to try to prove their point.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 2, 2015 at 8:26 pm #

            Well, it’s not telling the truth would help her.

          • Box of Salt
            May 1, 2015 at 10:54 pm #

            ciapraker2 “This site is one of the nastiest I’ve ever seen.”

            Then why are you continuing to post here?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 10:57 pm #

            Thank you for making your position clear.

          • Fallow
            May 1, 2015 at 11:02 pm #

            You wouldn’t have posted here a hundred times if you didn’t live for this shit.

            Also, cool move suggesting that eugenics is the proper solution for people for folks on the autism spectrum who disagree with you.

          • momofone
            May 1, 2015 at 11:39 pm #

            Yet you’re still here.

            And beyond reprehensible.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 9:31 am #

            The organizations pushing vaccination are the one advocating eugenics. The WHO has vaccinated millions of girls and women in Mexico, Nicaragua, and Kenya with vaccines laced with HCG, a sterilization drug that makes women’s bodies attack and kill their fetuses.

            https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a-mass-sterilization-exercise-kenyan-doctors-find-anti-fertility-agent-in-u

          • Dr Kitty
            May 2, 2015 at 9:53 am #

            HCG- you mean Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin?
            The hormone produced by the ovary and then by the placenta in order to sustain a pregnancy, not end it?
            The one which is measured by pregnancy tests?
            The one which falls if a pregnancy is non viable?
            The one with a very short half life (levels return to non-pregnancy values within days of a miscarriage) ?

            Yeah…I wouldn’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 10:03 am #

            But if you inject it with a vaccine it does totally different stuff, don’t you know?

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 10:10 am #

            In reality, I happen to know quite a few women who have injected HCG as a part of getting pregnant. It hasn’t caused miscarriages or prevented further pregnancies either. I spent years on a site for women with PCOS, and it’s not at all unusual in fertility treatment.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 10:53 am #

            Yep – I used HCG as my trigger shot for my first IVF cycle, and used a smaller dose of HCG following the trigger shot for IVF cycle #2. The side effects mentioned above are interesting – yes, HCG does play into OHSS. However, it’s so ridiculously specific when it happens…even with a hyperstimmed cycle for IVF #2, the docs still chose to use HCG w/ me. (Never developed OHSS, for what it’s worth.)

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 12:33 pm #

            My sister did develop OHSS, but also got her baby out of the whole thing. She says it was worth it.

            Natural HCG apparently makes me puke for 9 months, but is still worth it.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 12:39 pm #

            Hugs…9 months of morning sickness wouldn’t be fun. I’ve just gotten through 3 months of non-stop queasiness (no vomiting), and am about 99.999% certain I’ll never be willing to do it again.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 12:46 pm #

            Thanks. It was not fun, but my kids were actually worth it, most days.

            The first time I had no idea it would happen. The second, well, I’m clearly a glutton for punishment. It probably does play a role in why there is no third though.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 10:50 am #

            I had a side effect from HCG that we can’t discount…my 2-year-old son. They’d better add him to the list of possible side effects!

          • Nick Sanders
            May 2, 2015 at 1:25 pm #

            It causes two year olds? Damn, they should be putting that at the top of the label in bright red letters.

          • Roadstergal
            May 2, 2015 at 1:56 pm #

            Black box.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 10:44 am #

            Here is a quote from the article about this tetanus vaccine that was only given to 2.3 million Kenyan girls and women from 15 to 45 years of age (Can’t men get tetanus too?), and was given in five doses, when the usual is three doses:

            “doctors warn that injecting women with HCG , which mimics a natural hormone produced by pregnant women, causes them to develop antibodies against it. When they do get pregnant, and produce their own version of HCG, it triggers the production of antibodies that cause a miscarriage.”

            To my knowledge, the HCG in the vaccines is synthetic and genetically engineered, so it may not be identical to the HCG produced by the body and may have different effects.

            Known Side Effects of Real H.C.G.:
            Ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS)
            Birth deformities, if taken during pregnancy
            Early puberty
            Prostate cancer
            Severe pelvic pain
            Swelling of the hands and legs
            Stomach pain and swelling
            Shortness of breathWeight gain
            Diarrhea
            Nausea and vomiting
            Headaches
            Depression
            Breast tenderness and swelling
            Edema
            Reduced penis size
            Overuse of synthetic HCG has been known to shrink testicles.
            The WHO denied the HCG was in the vaccine at all, and then when independent test results (not financed by Big Pharma or Government) were presented to them, they finally shifted from denial to claiming the batch tested was contaminated or tainted accidentally.
            In any case, was it okay to inject these 2.3 million brown women with ingredients they were not informed was in the vaccine?

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 10:51 am #

            What a load of unsubstantiated crap. Find a credible source, with actual science to back up the findings. You’re quoting bullshit.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 2:07 pm #

            Since you only trust your god, the government, and/or one of it’s many alphabet demigods like the WHO as a credible source. Here is a government source.
            “The WHO Task Force on Vaccines for Fertility Regulation. Its formation, objectives and research activities.
            Abstract…

            Over the past 18 years, the WHO Task Force on Vaccines for Fertility Regulation has been supporting basic and clinical research on the development of birth control vaccines directed against the gametes or the preimplantation embryo. These studies have involved the use of advanced procedures in peptide chemistry, hybridoma technology and molecular genetics as well as the evaluation of a number of novel approaches in general vaccinology. As a result of this international, collaborative effort, a prototype anti-HCG vaccine is now undergoing clinical testing, raising the prospect that a totally new family planning method may be available before the end of the current decade”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1874951

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:09 pm #

            And?

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 2:24 pm #

            Great news! Imagine a vaccine instead of all the condoms, pills, IUDs and sterilization procedures! Imagine the empowerment of women, the most deprived population globally btw, if they were able to control their lives more efficiently and get rid of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies for long period of time/permanently by just getting a shot! Awesome!!!

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 3:16 pm #

            DepoProvera is already available, I imagine a longer action time would be welcome for many users!

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 3:26 pm #

            Depo Provera is definitely not awesome for all women. A vaccine, if reversible, would have beat the pants off any hormonal contraceptive for me.

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 3:34 pm #

            I didn’t like it, but I know women who did, and who would love a longer acting shot. Getting the long term protection of an IUD or even a tubal (depends on what a particular woman’s plans are), but without the concerns of carrying a foreign body (removal being an issue in resource poor environments), would be a major benefit for a lot of women. If it works without creating the potential unwanted side effects of hormone treatments, even better!

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 3:39 pm #

            I definitely agree with that.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 12:35 pm #

            You do realise that the majority of those side effects are also symptoms of pregnancy, right?

            And you realise your long list does NOT include sterilisation or future miscarriages, right? Wasn’t that your original claim?

          • Montserrat Blanco
            May 2, 2015 at 1:08 pm #

            I have had ALL of those side effects some months ago!!!!! The government must have been injecting me with it!!!!!! The shrinking in penis size was the worst!!!!!!

            Oh, wait, I was pregnant. And I do not have a penis. Damm it! Now I can not claim compensation!

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 5:18 pm #

            In Kenya they have a serious problem with neonatal tetanus. If you give the vaccine to women of child bearing age or pregnant mothers they can give passive immunity to their fetus which prevents this condition. It helps to know a little bit about the subject you want to discuss.

          • The Computer Ate
            May 2, 2015 at 10:13 am #

            Nice try, but your co-religionist admitted that she advocated euthanasia for people with autism. Especially if they disagree with her. Age of Autism has a “better dead than autistic” policy, overtly. The “no, you” defense won’t work here.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 3:41 pm #

            Our Friend Cia claims to have MS in another one of her rants over at Info Wars. I had to leave that discussiojn I was at risk for a brain bleed…..

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W
            May 2, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

            Do not worry, BarkingBN, the substance that was supposed to bleed is not there.

          • The Computer Ate
            May 2, 2015 at 10:16 am #

            And seriously why are you still posting on this 6 year old post and not moving to either the post you were explicitly invited to or the current one which is all about vaccination and privilege and is therefore highly relevant to this discussion. Why stay here?

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 10:21 am #

            Personally I’m a fan of the theory Chris is an antivax shill, and only gets paid for comments on this particular post.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 11:04 am #

            Who’s a conspiracy theorist now. Ha Ha.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 12:44 pm #

            Still you Chris.

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 10:32 am #

            HCG causes miscarriages like H2O causes dehydration.

            You’re an idiot.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 11:01 am #

            Don’t forget the other known side effects of the HCG that was injected into these 2.3 million women without their knowledge or consent:

            Ovarian Hyper Stimulation Syndrome (OHSS)
            Birth deformities, if taken during pregnancy
            Early puberty
            Prostate cancer
            Severe pelvic pain
            Swelling of the hands and legs
            Stomach pain and swelling
            Shortness of breathWeight gain
            Diarrhea
            Nausea and vomiting
            Headaches
            Depression
            Breast tenderness and swelling
            Edema
            Reduced penis size

            Have you been taking HCG? That might explain that last side effect. Ha Ha.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 2, 2015 at 11:10 am #

            And how many women are going to get prostate cancer or reduced penis size from HCG? Ok, so a few transwomen are at risk, but they probably won’t be taking HCG anyway.

          • Daleth
            May 2, 2015 at 12:39 pm #

            HCG is the pregnancy hormone, Chris–the naturally occurring hormone that always, again naturally, rises during pregnancy. It’s the hormone that pregnancy tests look for; if it’s above a certain level, you are pregnant. (Notice how virtually all of the HCG side effects you mention are symptoms of pregnancy?).

            To suggest that injecting it into a pregnant woman could cause birth deformities is ridiculous. And as Nym mentioned, the shots being developed to prevent pregnancy target HCG; they do not contain HCG.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

            How do the vaccines target HCG? The most likely method is to get the body to produce antibodies that attack HCG. They vaccinate you with attenuated measles and other viruses to get your body to produce antibodies to those viruses, so why is it so hard for you to believe that they may inject you with some form of HCG to get your body to produce antibodies to HCG, to regulate fertility.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:08 pm #

            Please explain, with references where possible, why hCG injected for fertility treatment purposes, in far higher doses than contamination of a vaccine, do not produce these same fertility destroying effects you are claiming for these vaccines?

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 2:38 pm #

            What is the Anti-Fertility ‘Vaccine’ ?

            Also termed “immunological contraceptive” the anti-fertility “vaccine” is a completely new mode of birth control. But unlike vaccines against diseases, which prepare the body to react against harmful germs, this “vaccine” acts against natural physiological substances. It actually reprograms the body’s self protection to attack substances that are natural to human physiology.

            This “vaccine” works by vaccinating against the female pregnancy hormone HCG (human chorionic gonadotrophin) which is produced by the fertilized egg just after conception. The “vaccine” contains a molecule in which HCG is linked to a diphtheria or tetanus carrier. When a pregnancy occurs and begins producing HCG, this molecule triggers an immune reaction against it, just as it would against diphtheria or tetanus. The body is tricked into attacking HCG and the fertilized egg.

            This is what millions of brown skin women of child bearing age in Mexico, Nicaragua, Philippines, and Kenya may have been vaccinated with without their knowledge or consent.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:47 pm #

            Did they find hCG linked to a tetanus carrier in sufficient volume to actually create a fertility vaccine? Or did they find a small amount of hCG?

            Did they test to be sure the molecule found was acutally hCG or assume that it was based on an initial test?

            Did they run controls to be sure that there was no laboratory contaminiation?

            Do you actually have access to the independent lab reports or simply a biased article making claims?

            Where was this work published?

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 4:40 pm #

            Here’s a brief explanation, with references.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunocontraception

            Here’s another one, from 1995: http://www.fwhc.org/health/vaccine.htm
            This stuff never really took off, and is not the vaccine being used on these women.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:03 pm #

            But those are references for actual attempted fertility vaccines, not contaminated (not that they have been proven to be) tetanus vaccines.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 5:05 pm #

            Which you claimed didn’t exist!

            “Please explain, with references where possible, why hCG injected for
            fertility treatment purposes, in far higher doses than contamination of a
            vaccine, do not produce these same fertility destroying effects you are
            claiming for these vaccines?”

            In point of fact, injecting HCG DOES impair fertility. However, these vaccines never got off the ground, so to speak.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:13 pm #

            Well, those vaccines do not currently exist, in that they never got off the ground.

            Those vaccines, at the point they were trialed, involved a portion of the hcg molecule linked to tetanus (or diptheria I believe) antigens to create even a minimal antibody response to hcg. It was not just put a tiny amount of hcg into an existing tetanus vaccine. As usual, the dose and the form of the molecule both matter.

            When they were trialed, they did not create a state of permanent sterility, as claimed, but a short time, as in months.

            Injecting hCG does not, as originally claimed here, create a state of infertility, short or long term. In fact, it is used to do preceisely the opposite.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 5:28 pm #

            The vaccines didn’t work well, but you’re wrong that injecting HCG does not create a state of infertility. Good grief, I’ve posted several links about these vaccines, including one from 1991 that said the vaccines looked “promising”. Here’s one from 1997:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9083611 I am substantially in agreement with you. I’m certainly not saying these accusations are true, good grief, I’ve argued against them before when Chris brought this stuff up.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:35 pm #

            No, injecting HCG does not create infertility. If it did, my nephew and countless other children I know would not exist.

            Injecting it linked with another antigen is a different thing, and still does not create the state of permanent infertility Chris has claimed.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 6:10 pm #

            PLEASE read the links I’ve posted.

            WHY are you arguing about this? I know that! Most of the pro-vaxers know that! However, it is true that HCG preparations have been used for contraception. If you deny that, the anti-vaxers use it against you!

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 7:45 pm #

            Perhaps you have not run into the women dealing with infertility who have misunderstood the science in the same way Chris clearly has, the ones who are angry and upset that their doctor would even suggest HCG injections when it will obviously leave them even worse off than they are already, or so they believe.

            I am sorry that anti vaxers can’t grasp the science, but leaving the idea that HCG injections cause permanent sterility or future miscarriages is not something I am comfortable doing.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 8:48 pm #

            Perhaps you ASS*ume too much. I had my own issues with infertility. This is not an infertility board.

            I still don’t get you. I’m certainly not arguing against you, although you seem to think I am.

            The fact remains that a contraceptive using HCG with tetanus toxoid as a carrier has been tested. If a woman has questions because her doctor wants her to have an HCG shot for infertility and she read about this contraceptive on this forum, she can cask him/her, and the reply will be “that’s a totally different preparation”.

            No one is getting infertility information on this freaking board!

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 5:23 am #

            You are not arguing with me? Nice claim, but you most certainly are.

            Your own fertility treatment means little in whether other women have had these concerns. My own means little either. Neither of us are these other women.

            I have never denied that HCG linked with tetanus (and other) carriers has been trailed as a fertility vaccine. However, HCG on its own or simply contaminating tetanus vaccines in very small amounts is not at all the same thing as that. Dose still matters.

            This is not an infertility board, but that doesn’t mean false science such as “injecting HCG causes sterility and future miscarriages” should be allowed to stand unchallenged. Plenty of women of childbearing age, many of whom may well need fertility treatment, read these comments.

          • Katia
            May 3, 2015 at 9:46 am #

            This is so frustrating. First, your infertility experiences were important. Now, neither yours nor mine nor anyone else’s are.

            I said the same things as you, posted links to back them up, a day ago. You’re the one who wants to carry on with this conversation. If the pro-vaxers say there’s no such contraceptive vaccine that uses HCG, that’s untrue. I was trying, futilely so it appears, to explain that. Do you know people use HCG for weight loss (though illegal for that purpose I know someone who used it for that just a year or so ago), and other things?

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 5:32 am #

            To be clear, I have never claimed attempts at an HCG vaccine have not been made.

            “These vaccines” are the supposedly HCG contaminated, at very low levels of contamination, tetanus vaccines. They have since been shown to have not been contaminated with HCG, but even when HCG content was believed to be in them, it was at levels far too low to produce any infertility effects or miscarriages. Permanent infertility and future miscarriages were Chris’ claims I wanted to see proven.

          • Katia
            May 3, 2015 at 9:36 am #

            Which is what I said way earlier in the thread. YOU are the one who came along and started this hijack.

            I don’t think you understand what was being discussed. Chris can’t prove his claims b/c they’re bogus, which some of us had been saying all along. The Catholic bishops obviously confused what they knew about this contraceptive vaccine and the tetanus shot. Chris didn’t understand the difference either.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 3:21 pm #

            “the shots being developed to prevent pregnancy target HCG; they do not contain HCG”

            Wrong again. Anti-HCG vaccines contain HCG as a component. Here is an explanation of how it works.

            What is the Anti-Fertility ‘Vaccine’ ?

            Also termed “immunological contraceptive” the anti-fertility “vaccine” is a completely new mode of birth control. But unlike vaccines against diseases, which prepare the body to react against harmful germs, this “vaccine” acts against natural physiological substances. It actually reprograms the body’s self protection to attack substances that are natural to human physiology.

            This “vaccine” works by vaccinating against the female pregnancy hormone HCG (human chorionic gonadotrophin) which is produced by the fertilized egg just after conception. The “vaccine” contains a molecule in which HCG is linked to a diphtheria or tetanus carrier. When a pregnancy occurs and begins producing HCG, this molecule triggers an immune reaction against it, just as it would against diphtheria or tetanus. The body is tricked into attacking HCG and the fertilized egg.

            The doctors in Kenya sent out samples to independent labs and they found HCG in the tetanus vaccines. It was not supposed to be in the vaccine, and none of the millions injected were informed of this ingredient. Similar to the 100 million being injected with polio vaccines contaminated with SV40 cancer virus as an unknown ingredient until the 1970’s.

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 3:25 pm #

            This cut and paste argument was addressed down thread. Repeating it without addressing the concerns already raised doesn’t help your case.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 4:04 pm #

            New? Anti-HCG vaccines were in trials (not court trials, usefulness trials, Chris) in 1991.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1514026

            Anyway, Chris, you have been lied to about these independent labs, etc. For your edification, I recommend this article, from 1995. Why this is being reported on woo sites twenty years later as being something new, I’ll never know.

            This is an old pdf and can’t be quoted, but I’ll type out some of the info as I doubt you’ll ever open the link.
            “When the vaccines were tested in laboratories that used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain HCG.”
            http://www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/resources/milstien.pdf

            The confusion seems to be that the anit-HCG vaccine, which was in trials, contained tetanus toxoid as a carrier. Howver, I would suspect that bit of vaccine technology is beyond your understanding.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 5:11 pm #

            I had an antibody against HCG with my first pregnancy. It wasn’t made for that I have a weird antibody that is for salicylic acid that for some reason got more specialized for binding other antibodies and can do a range of strange things. It just made me very sick. I did not lose the pregnancy or anything. My daughter is now 25 years old.

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 3:04 pm #

            If you’re making an attempt to mock my penis, not only are you an idiot, but also an asshole.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 12:19 pm #

            Here is a government source on the WHO use of HCG in vaccines to regulate fertility, since you only trust Government/Pharma sources.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1874951

          • Daleth
            May 2, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

            Chris, that is about creating “vaccines” whose sole purpose is to protect against pregnancy. It’s not about “lacing” actual vaccines (anti-disease shots) with drugs that prevent pregnancy.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 2, 2015 at 12:39 pm #

            Um…the vaccines being developed are specifically to prevent pregnancy. In other words, they’d be given to women who do not desire pregnancy, not to random women. Also, HCG is mentioned as a vaccine target, not a vaccine component. An ANTI-HCG vaccine is being developed as a possible treatment for prevention of undesired pregnancy. I have no idea whatsoever why you believe that this supports anything you’ve claimed.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            May 2, 2015 at 1:03 pm #

            Chris, seriously, you are making a fool of yourself. You have just posted a link to a paper about the development of an ANTI-HCG vaccine tested in women that do not want any more pregnancies and you are critizicing the WHO for injecting HCG on women… Either it is one or it is the other.

            By the way, it is a clinical trial, you know, with ethics commitee approval, informed consent forms signed, that kind of stuff. It is really patronizing that because it is been made on african countries you think that those women do not have any interest in taking part on said trial. Looks like you think they are primitive and have no capacity of making decissions about their healthcare and their family size and what contraceptives they are happy with.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            ” it is a clinical trial, you know, with ethics commitee approval, informed consent forms”.
            The 2.3 million African women injected in Kenya were told they were receiving a tetanus vaccine, not a fertility regulating vaccine containing some form of HCG. There was no informed consent. If there were fertility regulating agents in the vaccine, which independent tests showed, and the women were not informed, then this was yet another one of many unethical tests which governments and their proxies have done on unknowing populations in the past.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            May 2, 2015 at 3:31 pm #

            The paper you have linked talks about a clinical trial with informed consent. I kindly suggest you read the links you post.

            Either that or I will have to conclude that you do not understand what you read. As confusing a vaccine agaisnt a hormone with administering that hormone inside a vaccine (as a contaminant I guess).

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 3:33 pm #

            Anti-HCG vaccines do contain HCG as an ingredient. Do a 5 minute google search to educate yourself before criticizing.

          • Roadstergal
            May 2, 2015 at 2:05 pm #

            You’ll be happy to know that this was all sound and fury drummed up by some very confused and/or malicious Kenyan Catholic bishops, so check this worry off of your list.
            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/11/13/catholic-doctors-and-priests-versus-the-tetanus-vaccine-in-kenya/

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 2:11 pm #

            Some of those Catholics are trained and intelligent doctors, and they used independent scientific labs for the testing.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:31 pm #

            Controls?
            How did they obtain these samples? Were they contaminated?
            What amount of hCG was found? Is that sufficient to cause the development of antibodies?

          • Roadstergal
            May 2, 2015 at 2:33 pm #

            Oh, I didn’t know you were so new to the internet. The blue text in my post is a link. If you click on it and read it, all of the issues with the samples, the form of hCG, and the labs that might have made the story seem superficially plausible are succinctly addressed.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 2:41 pm #

            Ouch. 😀

          • Roadstergal
            May 2, 2015 at 5:46 pm #

            Well, they’re not very good with biology or chemistry – I shouldn’t assume they know HTML.

            I’ll gladly defer when it comes to Spanish.

          • Box of Salt
            May 2, 2015 at 6:58 pm #

            The labs might have been independent, but they did not run the appropriate tests.

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2014/11/17/a-resurrected-vaccine-fear-puts-kenyan-infants-at-risk/

            “A representative of one of the labs that tested the bishops’ samples, meanwhile, has stated that the testing used was appropriate only for human samples, not vaccine samples, and does not provide evidence that the vaccine contains hCG.”

            “Subsequent tests conducted appropriately in multiple labs in five countries showed no hCG in the vaccine.”

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 2:14 pm #

            http://www.uvm.edu/~bwilcke/ehreth.pdf

            This too:

            http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/SOWVI_full_report_english_LR1.pdf

            P.S. People like you reaching for people in developing world only in order to exemplify your lunatic beliefs shows the true extent of your inherent privilege-fueled bigotry.

          • Chris
            May 2, 2015 at 2:25 pm #

            And experimenting on unknowing brown skin people which governments have a long history of doing over and over again, such as the Tuskegee Experiment, or the Guatemala Project is not bigotry?

            After these and many other admissions, no government agency should be trusted with your health.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 2:31 pm #

            There was that vaccine blog where one of yer vaxxbuddies linked a supposed CDC insider talking about “experimenting on people in third world countries”, a trusted source in your world who then went on to list Poland and (non-existent) Czechoslovakia as examples of the places where she knew first hand such evil government schemes were taking place.

            You’ve probably shared that “insider” youtube video when running off of this particular tangent.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:32 pm #

            Oh yes! The third world country of Poland!

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 2:34 pm #

            Here it is in all of its glory:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ–PQBgam8

            It was this blog http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/02/whither-the-anti-vaccine-movement-now-that-it-has-been-discredited.html , graced by the superiorly skeptical presence of Alain Couvier. :)))

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 12:20 am #

            Good times…

          • SporkParade
            May 3, 2015 at 4:25 am #

            HCG is a hormone produced by pregnant women and its level increases rapidly during the first trimester of pregnancy. Also, there’s a difference between sterilization and abortifacients.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

            I am not interested in reading anything from age of autism. Why don’t you tell us in your own words.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        May 1, 2015 at 3:29 pm #

        Poor sources only confirm your already held bias. No one is going to read age of autism that actually knows anything about this subject. I do not like to be lied to.

        • Sue
          May 3, 2015 at 1:11 am #

          Same old argument.. you disagree so you wont read …Lied to.. you are lied to every single day by BIG Pharma.. and you just don’t get it do you.. 1 case of measles diagnosed to 7000 cases of autism.. wow you are so gullible…or maybe you are also on BIG Pharmas payroll…

          • Roadstergal
            May 3, 2015 at 1:48 am #

            Yes, we’re definitely doing a much better job of diagnosing kids on the spectrum and getting them the assistance that can help them learn and function in society. And vaccines have lowered the incidence of VPDs – although pockets of ignorant anti-vaccinators is allowing them to come roaring back. Honestly, I don’t see why better diagnosis of a formerly neglected genetic condition, and the suppression of VPDs by widespread vaccination, are bad things. But unlike AoA, I think autistic people should be alive and happy.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:19 am #

            I have know idea who AoA, .. and for you even to put in you think autistic people should be alive and happy.. is well of course they should be alive .. no question.. happy.. I wish that was true.. a lot maybe as happy as they can be but a lot more are locked in a terrible world.. and it is devastating on the families.. believe me.. love our children you bet.. wish they were not vaccine damaged you bet…And it is the biggest fabrication saying there is better diagnosis.. this is just a way to whitewash the truth and keep those parents coming in for their children to get a multitude of toxic chemicals in their vaccines.. if they new the truth they would run a mile.. which is what i wish I had done….

          • Nick Sanders
            May 3, 2015 at 3:20 am #

            Your patronization does less than nothing to help people living with autism.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 3:55 am #

            Patronisation … Mm well Nicky loosing your mojo.. Really.. I am Patrionising autistic people am I?? You are so so silly quite honestly you are…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 4:52 am #

            Your child would have autism whether or not he or she was vaccinated.

            I’m sure autism is a great burden on your family-please don’t add to that burden by wasting any time, money, effort or hope on ‘cures’ which are nothing more than false hopes peddled by false healers.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:10 am #

            Well that says it all about you doesnt it.. Parents do not care about trying to help your children.. just take it on the chin… there is no hope.. what type of person says this..Oh that is right those who are paid by BIG Pharma.. and do not what parents to try anything unless it makes BIG Pharma money…

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:15 am #

            That’s a tiny circle you’re running in.

            My nephew is aspergers/autistic. So is, it turns out, are his dad, aunt and uncle. Why should we want help? It’s no one’s fault but their genes. If we were badly off they would get assistance from the government because they have a child with challenges. As it is, thankfully, that isn’t needed.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 6:47 am #

            Well are you not lucky that you don’t need full time care for your severely autistic.. nephew uncle whatever..and it may well be hereditary in your family but in the majority of families it is not….miss expert..

          • Who?
            May 3, 2015 at 6:49 am #

            Yes we are lucky, no one denies that. That is the very point I was making, in fact.

            You are wrong to suggest there is no hereditary component to autism.

          • Sue
            May 3, 2015 at 7:27 am #

            No I am not.. the component causing autism is VACCINES…..

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

    • May 2, 2015 at 6:02 pm #

      Do you have access to the full text of the first study? If so, can you please explain to me what the heck “autism symptom phenotype” means? From the abstract it’s difficult to tell, but we all know that diagnoses using confirmed parental interviews will always be a subset of diagnoses of patients in the national registry, regardless of what is increasing or not. Also, you may not be aware that they were not using the pertussis vaccine in Sweden during the time period of this study, drastically reducing the amount of mercury these children were exposed to. So Sweden is not a particularly relevant place to study why autism is increasing in the US.

      As for the second study, it’s kinda stupid. They are basically saying that since there is a correlation between the increase in incidence of autism and changes in diagnostic criteria, the changes must account for the increased incidence. It’s no different than someone saying that the increase in autism correlates with an increase in the number of vaccines given, or to the amount of mercury they are being exposed to, etc. Make sense?

      M.I.N.D. INSTITUTE STUDY CONFIRMS AUTISM INCREASE
      http://www.dds.ca.gov/Autism/MINDEpidemiologyStudy.htm

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 2, 2015 at 6:26 pm #

        The absolute number of cases in California increased between 1987 and 1998. So did the population. The study does not appear to have ever been peer reviewed. I’m underwhelmed.

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        May 2, 2015 at 6:33 pm #

        Clink on the link that says free full text article. Here is a Wiki explanation of what phenotype means. It basically means what you see in an organism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

  6. Amy Tuteur, MD
    April 29, 2015 at 6:09 pm #

    The anti-vaxxers ought to join today’s discussion about privilege as a prerequisite for vaccine refusal since they demonstrate the privilege that protects them as they spout unscientific nonsense.

    http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/04/vaccine-refusal-how-privileged-mothers-leverage-their-privilege-and-harm-the-less-fortunate.html

    Anti-vax is also about ego, and it’s difficult to imagine bigger egos than those of individuals who have never taken a course in immunology, statistics or public health, but are SURE they know better than immunologists, physicians or public health experts.

    • Hans Meyer
      April 29, 2015 at 8:41 pm #

      “Anti-vax is also about ego”

      I believe that it is also about this…

      Not all narcissists are anti-vaxxers, but here’s why all anti-vaxxers are total narcissists

      …and this:

      These people want their children to suffer

      Kudos on your posts, @AmyTuteur:disqus .

      (and apologies if you’ve already seen the articles I’ve posted).

    • Marilyn Lachey
      April 30, 2015 at 6:18 pm #

      But what about all the physicians, microbiologists, biochemists, pediatricians, or public health experts that speak on the lack of efficacy and safety of vaccines? Oh yes…they are ALL Quacks…how convenient. Good thing intelligent people know that the age old tactic is to malign and discredit anyone that speaks truth on contentious issues or on issues of wrongdoing. Let’s talk about the conflicts of interest among vaccine defenders and who is discrediting all these professionals. Let’s have a real discussion.

      • Who?
        April 30, 2015 at 6:50 pm #

        What about all the ones that speak about the great efficacy and safety of vaccines, though. That group are the vast majority.

        And Marilyn, calling people shills then decrying the act of maligning (other) people is a pretty cheeky move.

        Let’s talk about what people flogging homeopathy, naturopathy, chelation, acupuncture, reiki and whatever else have to gain by selling what they prescribe. Where do they get their qualifications? What are their incomes from their consultations? What are the profits from their products? What do they pay in insurance? How much ongoing training are they required to do? Let’s talk about how when those things don’t work it is not the fault of the practitioner but the fault of the ‘patient’ who didn’t try hard enough. Very happy to have a serious discussion about the role of Big Pharma in Big Supplement and the profits to be made there.

        And while we’re at it let’s talk about the Wellness Warrior, who peddled her ‘lifestyle’ and ‘health’ wares online until moments before her death, taking who knows how many to their deaths, and Belle Gibson, a ‘cancer’ ‘survivor’ with big contracts for food and lifestyle, who turns out to be a deeply troubled, but otherwise well girl.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa
        April 30, 2015 at 8:26 pm #

        But what about all the physicians, microbiologists, biochemists,
        pediatricians, or public health experts that speak on the lack of
        efficacy and safety of vaccines? Oh yes…they are ALL Quacks

        Considering that they constitute at most maybe 1% of those groups, I have no problem thinking they are all quacks.

        I admit that I haven’t heard all them, but considering that all of them that we do hear and are quoted are, yeah, pretty much quacks, it’s not a stretch. Seriously, folks like Bob Sears and Jay Gordon, the poster children for the anti-vax pediatricians? Yeah, total quacks.

        Of course, we’ve already heard this stuff. I know it’s a long thread, but the “list of those who question vaccines” was given a couple days ago. Awfully underwhelming. And it also includes people who are decidely NOT anti-vax at all, but thrown in to try to make it look more impressive. And we have heard a couple times in this thread the opinions of the anti-vax person with a PhD in paleo of some sort. But she is paraded around as some serious anti-vax voice (because anti-vaxxers will grab onto ANYONE with a PhD).

        • ciaparker2
          May 1, 2015 at 10:56 am #

          Bob Sears and Jay Gordon are not anti-vax physicians, but are vehemently in favor of vaccines, but, unlike many doctors, respect parental choice.
          I have a Ph.D. and a law degree, and, since my daughter was rendered autistic by vaccine encephalitis, have spent years researching the issue of vaccines. There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism. Vaccines always irritate the immune system into responding to the vaccine with making antibodies, but this irritation is always expressed as inflammation, which can involve the brain and cause stroke-like brain damage to the language and social center of the brain, and can sensitize the immune system to vaccine ingredients, resulting in autoimmune disease of every sort, but primarily asthma, allergies, bowel disease, or diabetes.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 1, 2015 at 11:13 am #

            ave spent years researching the issue of vaccine

            Got a publication list from all those years of “researching”?

            Bob Sears and Jay Gordon are not anti-vax physicians,

            Of course they are.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm #

            Then why do they both say they strongly support giving vaccines? Dr. Sears highly recommends giving four DTaPs at 2, 4, 6, and 18 months, as per normal schedule. Also the Hib, Prevnar, and rotavirus vaccines, also as per schedule. He recommends not giving more than two shots per visit, with not more than one aluminum-containing vaccine per visit, and to avoid any mercury-containing vaccines, like most injected flu vaccines. He recommends the MMR in separate vaccines, which seems not to be possible at this time, but he recommends the normal version for that reason. I have written many things critical of both of them for that reason. They both respect parental choice, however. Is that your problem? You think all doctors should bully parents into submission to the extremely dangerous standard schedule?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 12:19 pm #

            Flu vaccines given in the US are usually provided in single dose vaccines which do not contain preservative. Actually, the vaccines are usually given intranasal at this point, which I think is a live vaccine, so preservative would be contraindicated. The MMR does not and never has contained any preservative or adjuvant.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 12:32 pm #

            Our local supermarket advertises injected Fluzone vaccine every winter, including this past winter, with a flyer which says that pregnant women and those over 65 should get its “preservative-free” version, the preservative being mercury. It says everyone, from infants six months old and up, should get the vaccine, but does not recommend that they get the mercury-free version.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 12:35 pm #

            So get the preservative free version if it makes you happy. I’ve never seen anyone in the US use the multi-dose version, but maybe you’re not in the US or maybe it’s a regional thing. The MMR still doesn’t have it and never did.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 11:28 am #

            I’ve never heard of the multi-dose flu shot in the U.S., either, despite 20+ years of getting the flu shot annually. When we moved to Canada, my son’s 1-year-old flu shot was split into two…but since then, he’s been back on the single dose alongside the rest of us.

            …and despite the evil multi-dose flu shot he received, there’s no hint of autism in this 2-year-old whose favourite pastime is flirting incessantly with 20-something women.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 1, 2015 at 12:52 pm #

            So why do they peddle vaccine fears with absolutely no basis? (ask Bob Sears for evidence that delaying vaccines or separating vaccines is any safer, he will admit there is none. He is just pandering)

            I will tell you that people who create and promote and pander to public fear as a way to line their pockets may not be anti-vax, but are absolutely quacks.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 1, 2015 at 3:32 pm #

            He has a cash only practice catering to antivaxxers.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

            Why? Because they make money at it. They pander to their patients’ parents’ delusions and the parents pay them cash for their dubious services. And they get attention as “brave maverick” doctors who don’t follow what “Big Pharma” says. If they admitted that they were FOS and that their recommendations were worthless at best, harmful at worst, who would pay attention to them, buy their books, and go to their clinics any longer? That’s why they keep peddling baseless fear.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

            Two shots per visit? That adds up to quite a few more visits. Does he charge per visit? Hmmmmm!

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 7:35 pm #

            I’m pretty sure that’s Jay Gordon’s economic model.

          • Medwife
            May 2, 2015 at 11:24 am #

            Him and much of the AP industry. Fancy slings, the breast feeding accoutrements, baby and pediatric chiropractic, organic/non gmo foods; if you love your baby, you’ll show it with your wallet. Poor people just don’t love their kids as much.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:28 pm #

            I took my daughter for only one shot per visit, because it is thought to be safer that way (much good it did us). I took our cat in for only one shot per visit, only two total, feline distemper and rabies. Same reason. Loving parents are glad to pay more to try to protect their children from harm.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2015 at 9:49 pm #

            Real or imagined harm, yes. And those fine physicians know it.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:52 pm #

            The more shots you give at one time, the more fierce the incursion of many antigens at once, the fiercer the immune system’s reaction to the vaccine tends to be. Books about both human children and pets advise separating vaccines, and giving as few as is thought necessary. Hannah Poling got eight vaccines at once, reacted immediately, and it caused her severe autism. So you’re just going to laugh gaily, say Fiddle-dee-dee, I don’t believe that vaccines put one iota of stress on the immune system, stick my baby with ten all at the same time, get it over with fast, who cares about the reaction?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 8:54 am #

            I took my daughter for only one shot per visit, because it is thought to be safer that way

            Thought by whom? Not anyone who knows anything about vaccines.

            Bob Sears CLAIMS it, I know, but if you ask him, he will admit that there is absolutely no basis for it. But it has sold a lot of books for him.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 8:54 am #

            I wasn’t going to chime in here until I heard the ridiculous statement “loving parents are glad to pay more to try to protect their children from harm” as tied to your references to space out vaccines.

            I delayed my son’s vaccinations when he was little due to fears spread by the darn internet echo chamber. The only outcome? He was left longer at risk of being killed by a serious disease. We had a local measles outbreak when he was just shy of his first birthday. You can bet your a** I had him vaccinated for MMR _on_ his first birthday.

            My listening to the anti-vaccination fear mongering echo chamber was not being a loving parent. It was putting my son at risk of serious disease or even death, all in the guise of being a loving parent. It was only when I did coursework in epidemiology that I realized that my fears were causing me to play Russian Roulette w/ my son’s health. The baby I’m currently carrying? He/she will be vaccinated as early as possible, starting with the TDAP and flu shots while still in the womb.

            There is _no_ evidence that Sears’ delayed schedule is the responsible thing to do, and in fact, everything I’ve seen demonstrates that the current vaccination schedule is the safest option for our children…both in terms of the shots that are safe to have together as well as protecting our kids as early as possible from disease.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 1:37 pm #

            Individual vaccination schedule is not what those quacks are selling – you get consultations with immunologists and other specialists who work together to make the best recommendation around the identified increased risks of adverse reaction. Medical childhood vaccination waiver has little to nothing to do with what parents feel or think is right.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 2, 2015 at 11:27 am #

            And ka-ching! says Dr. Jay. No wonder he feeds the anti-vax delusions if it’s this profitable. Amazing that someone who is so into the idea that doctors and pharma are out to get you isn’t the least bit skeptical of the obviously self-interested advice given by her pediatrician.

          • Box of Salt
            May 2, 2015 at 12:32 pm #

            Loving parents provide protection from harm for their children in a timely manner, not on shot per visit.

          • Daleth
            May 1, 2015 at 11:21 am #

            I’m really sorry for what your daughter, and you, have suffered. I hope this doesn’t upset or annoy you, but here’s some information:

            It takes more than a million children getting vaccinated for one child to develop encephalitis (and slightly more than half the kids who get encephalitis will recover with no lasting effects, so basically it’s about a 1 in 2.5 million risk). In contrast, if only 5000 kids get measles, one of those children’s measles will progress to encephalitis.

            If a kid gets encephalitis either way, the chances of recovery without lasting effects are the same, but the *incidence* of encephalitis is 200 times greater without vaccination. So you end up with 200 times more children dying (15% of encephalitis sufferers) and 200 times more children having lasting problems.

            http://www.encephalitis.info/information/further-information/

            No one’s claiming that vaccines are perfect or that 100% safety is achievable in this world. It’s just that the world is much, much safer–about 200 times safer when it comes to measles-related encephalitis alone, for instance–with vaccines. But I’m sure that no matter how low the risk is, it must be horrifying when yours is the family that’s hit.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:27 pm #

            That’s not true. Read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hep-B Vaccine and Autism, to get a more accurate idea of the frequency of vaccine encephalitis. One in 36 American children has autism now, and nearly all of them have it from vaccine encephalitis.

          • Daleth
            May 2, 2015 at 9:29 am #

            That claim is just absurd. Most people with autism never had any form of encephalitis. It’s so sad to see people latch on to these weird conspiracy theories and purposely overlook blatant contradictions such as: having autism in family members, especially parents or siblings, drastically increases your risk of autism (i.e. it’s genetic); having a parent who is an engineer greatly increases it, and if both parents are engineers the risk goes up accordingly (since engineers are more likely than average to have it–i.e., again, it’s genetic)…

            Also, seriously, you want me to read a book about vaccines… by a dietician? How about I recommend a book about medical malpractice law written by a schoolteacher? Can we get any less relevant/qualified?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 1, 2015 at 11:36 am #

            I have a Ph.D.

            In Spanish. If I want to know about possible ecofeminist themes in Spanish literature, I’ll ask you. However, that doesn’t mean squat for vaccines.

            (her thesis title was, “The malaise of patriarchy: Spanish women’s voices in the realist novel”)

            and a law degree,

            When it is convenient. You have also claimed to be a nurse or some other sort of medical degree.

            https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/the-weird-and-confusing-world-of-ciaparker/

            Amazingly, sufficiently large loons leave pretty big footprints on them there internets…

          • Daleth
            May 1, 2015 at 2:06 pm #

            I don’t think that Spanish PhD is her. There are two people in the US with this poster’s name; one has a law degree and the other has a PhD (in psychology).

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 2:08 pm #

            I’m thinking she’s the one who writes for Age of Autism. :p

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 2:24 pm #

            Really? Wonder if it’s a paid position? I always did think that the “shill” accusation was a bit of projection. Perhaps that explains the remarkable reluctance of the anti-vaxxers to move to a different thread and the prevalence of content free posts from them: Maybe they get paid by the comment on this thread and this thread alone.

          • Daleth
            May 1, 2015 at 2:38 pm #

            Does that mean she’s Cynthia Ann Parker who got a PhD in Spanish Lit in 1997? My google searching, though admittedly cursory, doesn’t support that. It doesn’t refute it either, but I did find two women whose name is much closer to this poster’s handle and who each have one of the degrees that this poster claims to have. I also don’t see any evidence that the above-mentioned Cynthia Ann has/had a law degree. Totally open to the possibility I’m wrong but just wanted to be clear.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 1, 2015 at 3:24 pm #

            I saw a mention on another website that she had a PhD in spanish, and found that thesis.

            ETA: she admits it below

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:25 pm #

            I have both a law degree and a Ph.D.

          • Daleth
            May 2, 2015 at 9:31 am #

            Uh huh. And is the PhD in Spanish or Psychology? Which one? Not that either gives you any special ability to understand immunology, any more than a PhD in immunology gives someone an ability to understand Spanish literature or family systems therapy…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 9:44 am #

            And is the PhD in Spanish or Psychology?

            It’s spanish; she admits it below

          • Daleth
            May 2, 2015 at 10:52 am #

            Then I apologize for possibly slandering other people with the same name.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 11:49 am #

            If your are a PhD researcher, surely you can share your CV? These findings of yours, which contradict every other known study, surely have been published somewhere.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 11:51 am #

            There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism.

            Why do you say that? What is the evidence that vaccines cause autism? What is the evidence that autism is even related to immune issues? Autism is not stroke. The characteristic changes that occur in stroke on MRI are not seen in autism. If immune response is involved in the pathogenesis of autism, why should vaccines, which cause a lesser immune response than natural infection, be an issue but not natural infection with the whole and active pathogen?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 11:52 am #

            BTW, I’m autistic. Shall I apologize for not being dead?

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 1, 2015 at 12:50 pm #

            Oh silly CAMN we are not real autistic people. We are too “high functioning.” Real autistic people don’t advocate for themselves but function as blank slates that these bigots can project their ablist bullcrap on. Remember you are not autistic enough for your opinion to count if you can voice disagreement with what someone who is not autistic at all wants for you.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 3:40 pm #

            Well, it’s true that anyone who tries to give me a bleach enema will have that enema some place unfortunate. For them. So I suppose the nonverbal autistics who can’t fight back as effectively are easier targets.

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 1, 2015 at 5:21 pm #

            Is there a place more unfortunate than the place enema’s are already supposed to go? If so I must admit I’ve lived a sheltered life.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 5:50 pm #

            I suppose you could pour it in their eyes.

          • Cobalt
            May 1, 2015 at 5:52 pm #

            If you’re giving your kid bleach enemas to “cure” autism, you deserve to have this happen.

          • Mishimoo
            May 1, 2015 at 7:40 pm #

            I always suggest sideways up someone’s left nostril.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 7:44 pm #

            As a final resting place. Via the transurethral route.

          • yugaya
            May 1, 2015 at 6:32 pm #

            I’ve learned a lot from you and other people advocating for themselves when it comes to autism. Your comments and insights gave me better understanding and in a way taught me how to help my big kid find her own voice when it comes to her autism. She is also too high functioning to be obvious or for her autism to be taken seriously where we live.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 1, 2015 at 3:30 pm #

            Dr bob and Dr jay are just shills.

          • Box of Salt
            May 1, 2015 at 4:15 pm #

            If Bob Sears is ” vehemently in favor of vaccines” why did he publicly oppose the CA bill requiring informed consent for Personal Belief Exemptions (AB 2109)? And why is he now speaking out against SB277?

            As for Jay Gordon – he admits he only reluctantly gave his patients the MMR when measles was running through Southern California this January.

            ciaparker2, if you believe that statement you typed here, you are seriously delusional.

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm #

            I’ve seen some of Jay Gordon’s Tweets – the man is either very ignorant of how vaccines work, or he panders to those who are very ignorant of how vaccines work (and also opposes SB277 while showing he wasn’t quite clear on what it entails). Being the Vaccine-‘skeptical’ Pediatrician To The Stars And Affluent is very lucrative for him.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 1, 2015 at 5:14 pm #

            I’ve seen some of Jay Gordon’s Tweets – the man is either very ignorant
            of how vaccines work, or he panders to those who are very ignorant of
            how vaccines work

            All you need to know about Jay Gordon is that he taught Jenny McCarthy everything she knows about vaccines. Basically, he was the one behind all of McCarthy’s nonsense – she was effectively his mouthpiece.

            You have seen his tweets…I’ve actually had conversations with him (when I frequented RI he would comment). He is a buffoon. An absolutely blithering buffoon.

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 6:14 pm #

            He definitely brings out the crazy in the RI comments section, but I had thought he might tone it down a bit in his Tweets, being more of a ‘public’ face. Narp. He’s either unaware of his ignorance or is selling it intentionally.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 6:33 pm #

            All decent people oppose SB 277, you haven’t noticed? There is no problem. There has not been a single case that has been cited to show that even a single unvaxed child has given a classmate a disabling or fatal case of any vaccine-preventable disease. Measles and pertussis are really the only diseases we’re talking about, and in schoolchildren they are extremely rarely dangerous. But EVERYONE now knows families with vaccine-damaged children, and autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody. If they pass SB 277, they will also have to require that children who have gotten a live vaccine in the previous six weeks remain at home in quarantine so as not to shed live virus which might damage the immunocompromised. Since the pertussis and flu vaccines actually protect so few from the diseases, they’ll just have to accept that the immunocompromised may get these diseases even from appropriately vaxed classmates.
            But this is what Dorit was hired two years ago to do, and so now she’s done it. The exact same bill introduced in about ten state legislatures hoping to terrify the public so much with the minor, harmless measles outbreak at Disneyland that they could ramrod through a vaccine mandate and take away all personal exemptions. And THAT has terrified the you-know-what out of EVERYBODY! The state will have absolute power to require as many vaccines as the vaccine companies dictate, and medical exemptions would only be for children with cancer. Children whose siblings had had horrific reactions would not be exempt, hell, the children with horrific reactions would not be exempt from continuing the series and getting all the others. And so we have seen the bill shot down in at least eight state legislatures, because THE PUBLIC DOESN’T WANT IT! They don’t want it in California either, but the legislators, bought by the vaccine companies, have passed it along so far. Very exciting, I predict riots in the streets soon. Because good parents are not going to endanger their children’s lives by giving them vaccines they think are dangerous. Period.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2015 at 6:39 pm #

            Wow. Autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody?

            FUCK. YOU. My kid is beautiful.

          • Mishimoo
            May 1, 2015 at 7:39 pm #

            Autistic kids are awesome!! The way their eyes light up when talking about their special interest? That is beautiful, and I will never get tired of seeing it.

            Anyone that is scared of them can fuck right off.

          • Who?
            May 1, 2015 at 8:31 pm #

            My nephew who is generally a fairly hard to warm to child is a delight when on his pet topic. And you know what it isn’t up to him to be easy to warm to, or to delight me either.

            He is his own unique self. His parents have worked hard with him to help him fit in, learn to use his words not his fists, and good on them.

            Really over this ‘austism is the worst thing ever’ nonsense.

          • Mishimoo
            May 1, 2015 at 9:07 pm #

            Same here. It’s unfair and unkind, and it should not be tolerated! Ableism has got to go.

            If my granddad was a child today, there’s a fair chance that he’d be diagnosed with autism. He was my biggest positive influence, he was the only adult that never yelled at me when I was a kid, he indulged my interests and taught me so many things. When I think of autistic adults, I think of him and our wonderful rambling conversations.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2015 at 9:45 pm #

            My husband’s father is smack dab on the spectrum, never diagnosed of course. He’s done great for himself in spite of the lack of support from school and society and I have high hopes for my son, who is getting early intervention. There has never been a time when everyone has lived on there own and played taxes, and that’s ok, because we’re not fucking wolves.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:19 pm #

            My daughter had meltdowns at school because they put her in all typical middle school classes, because she has a normal IQ (according to them, anyway). Four or five hours a day sitting in classes in which she understood not a single word, they gave her nothing she could do, even though she could have learned from adapted instructional materials and done worksheets. They said the modern thing is the inclusive classroom, but my daughter can understand NOTHING of what goes on in class, cannot participate, cannot say ANYTHING. Just sat there bored, waiting for the class to end. They wouldn’t put her in special ed because they said she had normal intelligence. They didn’t understand at all what the language disability of autism is. She can’t talk to anyone, can’t communicate, can’t understand. She had no friends because she can’t talk to anyone.
            She’s going to turn 15 on Tuesday. Can’t talk, can’t understand. She won’t be able to have a job or support herself, but our county case manager said we’ll have to go to court to fight for SS disability payments, because the system has been so overwhelmed with the deluge of autistic young people coming of age with nothing to do, no place to go, that the system can’t handle them. They’re giving SS disability to fewer and fewer, because they believe, I guess, that there is no REAL increase, that this apparent deluge must be kids PRETENDING they can’t function. Great.

          • toni
            May 2, 2015 at 12:17 am #

            I’m sorry its been such a struggle for you and your daughter. I would hate to think of my child being stuck at school all day, confused and getting nothing out of it. I’m very surprised a non verbal teenager is considered functioning enough to be at a normal school with no additional help. that’s nuts. If her condition isn’t recognised and understood it will be hard for her to fulfill her potential, find what she is good at etc. You’re clearly utterly convinced that vaccines caused her autism.. I know a 7 year old autistic boy who was never vaccinated who does not speak a word and appears not to understand anything said to him. He lives in a rural area that has the highest rating for air quality. His mother is worried for his future and how people will treat him as an adult. I’d be scared too. I don’t think looking for something to blame it on is helpful though.. it’s just the way she was made. There’s simply no evidence that autism and vaccinating are linked. Has your daughter had any kind of therapy to help her communicate? I assume she is able to take care of herself somewhat and do regular kid things if she has been deemed of normal intelligence.

          • Who?
            May 2, 2015 at 12:36 am #

            I”m sorry you and your daughter are suffering.

            Perhaps ‘they’ are providing fewer payments because the US has been in a budget crisis and is in thrall to a political ideology that says that government is a thieving waste of time.

            The kinds of jobs that used to be available for people like your daughter have been mechanised or sent offshore to save a dollar somewhere. My daughter is about to finish a four year university degree and probably won’t get a job, because her industry, booming 5 years ago, has tanked.

            There is no system, just a bunch of people trying to do right according to their lights. You want money for your daughter, others want money for other things, we are all competing for a dwindling cake.

            It’s such a shame you have so much anger that you need to put out into the world.

            And there is no real increase, just improved awareness and a greater fondness for and reliance on cookie-cutter people. Oh and way more parents with the education and temperament to put time and money into activism.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 2, 2015 at 11:21 am #

            Earlier you claimed that your daughter said “cat food” and “harley” and nothing else. Except that in another post you said she now uses “some” and “any” thanks to you and you alone. Now you’re claiming that she’s in typical middle school classes (at 15?). I’ve never seen a school district incompetent enough to put an essentially nonverbal child in mainstream classes and I went to school in Texas so I know from bad schools. Also, you claimed she could read. How do you even know whether she’s reading if she’s not verbal? Your description of your daughter’s condition and treatment simply makes no sense and is inconsistent between various posts.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:24 pm #

            They can talk? They’re on the higher-performing end of the spectrum. My daughter says Cat food and Harley, and that’s about all. I say What do you want to do today? and she says Cat food! I say Would you rather go swimming or take a walk, and she says Harley! She can read, was hyperlexic, but doesn’t read because she can’t follow story lines.
            My daughter’s brain was damaged by vaccine encephalitis, and she has been robbed of most of what makes us human. She has average intelligence, according to a school IQ test, but is locked inside her mind, unable to use or understand enough language to make a bridge out of her mind and connect with the outer world. No friends, nothing to do, nothing to read, nothing.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 9:40 pm #

            Again, I don’t believe you.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:49 pm #

            The number one diagnostic criterion for autism is inability or great difficulty in using language to communicate: this is a hallmark of autism. If you can use language appropriately to communicate, you don’t have autism. Autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis: the brain swells when the immune system mounts an inflammatory reaction to the incursion of the vaccine, it often causes swelling of the brain, which reduces or cuts off circulation to vital centers of the brain, especially the language and social center. My daughter’s screaming syndrome lasted for four days and nights, and that was enough to severely damage her brain. They say it’s a medical emergency if the screaming lasts even three hours nonstop.
            Look it up. It’s like a stroke in which circulation is cut off by a blood clot, and same results, the language center of the brain is damaged, and the stroke victim can no longer use language normally, if at all.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 9:57 pm #

            This is pure bullshit.

            “Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior. Parents usually notice signs in the first two years of their child’s life.[2] The signs typically develop gradually, but some children with autism will reach their developmental milestones at a normal pace and then regress.[3]”

            “Autism has a strong genetic basis, although the genetics of autism are complex and it is unclear whether ASD is explained more by rare mutations with major effects, or by rare multigene interactions of common genetic variants.[51][52] Complexity arises due to interactions among multiple genes, the environment, and epigenetic factors which do not change DNA but are heritable and influence gene expression.[21] Studies of twins suggest that heritability is 0.7 for autism and as high as 0.9 for ASD, and siblings of those with autism are about 25 times more likely to be autistic than the general population.[40] However, most of the mutations that increase autism risk have not been identified. Typically, autism cannot be traced to a Mendelian (single-gene) mutation or to a single chromosome abnormality, and none of the genetic syndromes associated with ASDs have been shown to selectively cause ASD.[51] Numerous candidate genes have been located, with only small effects attributable to any particular gene.[51] The large number of autistic individuals with unaffected family members may result from copy number variations—spontaneous deletions or duplications in genetic material during meiosis.[53] Hence, a substantial fraction of autism cases may be traceable to genetic causes that are highly heritable but not inherited: that is, the mutation that causes the autism is not present in the parental genome.[50]

            Several lines of evidence point to synaptic dysfunction as a cause of autism.[8] Some rare mutations may lead to autism by disrupting some synaptic pathways, such as those involved with cell adhesion.[54] Gene replacement studies in mice suggest that autistic symptoms are closely related to later developmental steps that depend on activity in synapses and on activity-dependent changes.[55]”

            “Parents may first become aware of autistic symptoms in their child around the time of a routine vaccination. This has led to unsupported theories blaming vaccine “overload”, a vaccine preservative, or the MMR vaccine for causing autism.[58] The latter theory was supported by a litigation-funded study that has since been shown to have been “an elaborate fraud”.[59] Although these theories lack convincing scientific evidence and are biologically implausible,[58] parental concern about a potential vaccine link with autism has led to lower rates of childhood immunizations, outbreaks of previously controlled childhood diseases in some countries, and the preventable deaths of several children.[60][61]”

            “Autism’s symptoms result from maturation-related changes in various systems of the brain. How autism occurs is not well understood. Its mechanism can be divided into two areas: the pathophysiology of brain structures and processes associated with autism, and the neuropsychological linkages between brain structures and behaviors.[62] The behaviors appear to have multiple pathophysiologies.[23]”

            “Unlike many other brain disorders, such as Parkinson’s, autism does not have a clear unifying mechanism at either the molecular, cellular, or systems level; it is not known whether autism is a few disorders caused by mutations converging on a few common molecular pathways, or is (like intellectual disability) a large set of disorders with diverse mechanisms.[18] Autism appears to result from developmental factors that affect many or all functional brain systems,[64] and to disturb the timing of brain development more than the final product.[63] Neuroanatomical studies and the associations with teratogens strongly suggest that autism’s mechanism includes alteration of brain development soon after conception.[5] This anomaly appears to start a cascade of pathological events in the brain that are significantly influenced by environmental factors.[65] Just after birth, the brains of children with autism tend to grow faster than usual, followed by normal or relatively slower growth in childhood. It is not known whether early overgrowth occurs in all children with autism. It seems to be most prominent in brain areas underlying the development of higher cognitive specialization.[40] Hypotheses for the cellular and molecular bases of pathological early overgrowth include the following:

            An excess of neurons that causes local overconnectivity in key brain regions.[66]

            Disturbed neuronal migration during early gestation.[67][68]

            Unbalanced excitatory–inhibitory networks.[68]

            Abnormal formation of synapses and dendritic spines,[68] for example, by modulation of the neurexin–neuroligin cell-adhesion system,[69] or by poorly regulated synthesis of synaptic proteins.[70][71] Disrupted synaptic development may also contribute to epilepsy, which may explain why the two conditions are associated.[72]”

            “Diagnosis is based on behavior, not cause or mechanism.[23][105] Under the DSM-5, autism is characterized by persistent deficits in social communication and interaction across multiple contexts, as well as restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities. These deficits are present in early childhood, typically before age three, and lead to clinically significant functional impairment. Sample symptoms include lack of social or emotional reciprocity, stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language, and persistent preoccupation with unusual objects. The disturbance must not be better accounted for by Rett syndrome, intellectual disability or global developmental delay.[7] ICD-10 uses essentially the same definition.[19]

            Several diagnostic instruments are available. Two are commonly used in autism research: the Autism Diagnostic Interview-Revised (ADI-R) is a semistructured parent interview, and the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule (ADOS)[106] uses observation and interaction with the child. The Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS) is used widely in clinical environments to assess severity of autism based on observation of children.[25]

            A pediatrician commonly performs a preliminary investigation by taking developmental history and physically examining the child. If warranted, diagnosis and evaluations are conducted with help from ASD specialists, observing and assessing cognitive, communication, family, and other factors using standardized tools, and taking into account any associated medical conditions.[107] A pediatric neuropsychologist is often asked to assess behavior and cognitive skills, both to aid diagnosis and to help recommend educational interventions.[108] A differential diagnosis for ASD at this stage might also consider intellectual disability, hearing impairment, and a specific language impairment[107] such as Landau–Kleffner syndrome.[109] The presence of autism can make it harder to diagnose coexisting psychiatric disorders such as depression.[110]”

            “ASD can sometimes be diagnosed by age 14 months, although diagnosis becomes increasingly stable over the first three years of life: for example, a one-year-old who meets diagnostic criteria for ASD is less likely than a three-year-old to continue to do so a few years later.[114]”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:12 pm #

            The genetic basis is a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. No vaccines, no problem. There was no autism before vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 10:29 pm #

            That’s absurd.

          • KarenJJ
            May 2, 2015 at 6:41 am #

            I have a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. I have a rare underlying immune system condition that reacts to the adjuvants in vaccines (the inflammatory part of my immune system is always switched on and needs to be controlled by medication). I was diagnosed by an immunologist, a medical doctor (and PhD) who used to work in vaccine research. He brought up vaccine reactions with me! It’s hardly a massive conspiracy when the head of an immunology department of a large teaching hospital starts asking about your reactions to vaccines. The chronic inflammation had affected my brain a bit because I was found to have swollen optic nerves. They wrote a paper about me and published it in a peer-reviewed journal.

            Still not autistic though.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 8:50 am #

            The genetic basis is a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. No vaccines, no problem.

            That’s what Kim Stagliano thought. That left her youngest autistic AND susceptible to disease.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 8:53 am #

            I’m sure they lived next door to illegal mercury manufacturing facility or vaccines were administered in secret by vaccination squads.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 9:43 am #

            Of course, Kim blames her own vaccines, since the kids vaccines no longer explained the results.

            But I will note that, even if Kim were right (and she’s not even close to being right) it still contradicts cia’s claim.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 1, 2015 at 9:57 pm #

            Help me out here. If autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis, why have unvaccinated people been diagnosed with autism?

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:11 pm #

            I said nearly always. Some people, especially those who live in industrialized areas, develop autism from exposure to industrial toxins, especially mercury, but it can be others as well. But for the vast majority, like 99.999%, it’s from vaccines. The one unvaxed Amish guy who had autism lived next to a mercury-producing electrical plant.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 10:31 pm #

            The rates of Amish autism are no different from those of the rest of the population.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 1, 2015 at 10:40 pm #

            You said: “Autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis”. There was no nearly about it.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 3:07 pm #

            and cia continues to demonstrate that her PhD is imaginary.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 8:35 am #

            So, according to you:

            50% of all children in USA have some sort of disease that was caused by vaccines

            and

            99,999% of all autism cases is caused by vaccines.

            I just felt the need to quote that so that the insanity of your claims does not get lost in wordcount.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 3:10 pm #

            cia2 claims about vaccination are just as imaginary as her PhD and law degree.

          • Katia
            May 2, 2015 at 3:39 pm #

            Oh, for crying out loud cia. There has been more than one unvaxed Amish with autism. There is no similarity between mercury poisoning and autism. Look up the symptoms.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 8:09 am #

            ” If you can use language appropriately to communicate, you don’t have autism.”

            Wrong. Even when over time their language abilities/skills develop, the speech impairments will still be there. The fact that they can and do learn how to display ( or rather mimic) verbal/ social communication of a neurotypical person does not magically turn an autistic person into one.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 3:05 pm #

            Up to Date describes autism as most likely caused by genetic factors in utero……

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 7:55 am #

            If you think that parents of highly functioning autistic children who can say much more than your daughter do not face that same communication blockade every day, then you don’t really know shit about autism at all.

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 5:48 am #

            I don’t mean to offend, but I have been wondering about this since I read it.

            If your daughter can only communicate by saying “cat food” and “Harley”, how has her intelligence been tested?

            If she is capable of writing the answers, then her communication is not so limited as you have claimed. If she is capable of pointing to the correct answer, again you have another line of communication available.

            I am terribly sorry for your daughter’s situation, but brain damage via encephalitis (vaccine or disease caused) really is not the usual background of those on the spectrum. My nephew, for example, had no such reaction to vaccines or any other illness and frankly looking back we can see evidence from babyhood that he was different to his cousins and others. We can’t say whether his delayed speech was related to being on the spectrum or to other familial history. Both of his parents were delayed and so was my son, his cousin.

          • Medwife
            May 1, 2015 at 9:41 pm #

            He’s beautiful because he’s him.

          • Who?
            May 1, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

            ‘All decent people’ hey. Nice. such a judgy couple of words there.

            And I don’t know anyone with a vaccine damaged child.

            There is no evidence that vaccinated children shed live virus.

            Vaccines will not be mandated, but if you want to send your child to state school, you will have to show evidence they are vaccinated. Just like when your child has nits you are asked to keep them home until they are treated. This is how a cooperative society works. If you don’t want to cooperate, fine.

            There will be no anti-vaccine riots, what absolute nonsense.

            And I’m not scared of autistic kids, why would I be?

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 7:33 am #

            I forgot to be scared of my nephew. I love him and enjoy him.

            If anything, he’s easier than my own kids.

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 7:07 pm #

            “All decent people oppose SB 277”
            Untrue.

            “There is no problem”
            Untrue.

            “Measles and pertussis are really the only diseases we’re talking about, and in schoolchildren they are extremely rarely dangerous.”
            Untrue.

            “But EVERYONE now knows families with vaccine-damaged children, and autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody”
            Untrue. (Seriously?)

            “If they pass SB 277, they will also have to require that children who have gotten a live vaccine in the previous six weeks remain at home in quarantine so as not to shed live virus which might damage the immunocompromised.”
            Untrue.

            “ince the pertussis and flu vaccines actually protect so few from the diseases”
            They’ll protect a lot more when we tighten up herd immunity at the school level by asking highly delusional folk like you to keep your unvaxed kids away.

            “minor, harmless measles outbreak at Disneyland ”
            Untrue.

            “vaccine mandate and take away all personal exemptions.”
            Untrue.

            “And THAT has terrified the you-know-what out of EVERYBODY! ”
            Untrue.

            “The state will have absolute power o require as many vaccines as the vaccine companies dictate, and medical exemptions would only be for children with cancer.”
            Untrue.

            “THE PUBLIC DOESN’T WANT IT! They don’t want it in California either”
            Untrue.

            So – are you highly misinformed, or are you lying?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 7:48 pm #

            “autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody”
            Go to hell you ableist bitch.

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 2, 2015 at 2:52 pm #

            Took the words out of my mouth (fingertips?). Also BOO MOTHER FUCKER!

          • demodocus' spouse
            May 1, 2015 at 8:24 pm #

            My little autistic cousin doesn’t scare me at all. His “normal” sister, on the other hand, is a complete hellion. I’d rather have him spend 15 minutes in a room alone with my 1 year old than her.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:20 pm #

            The thought of having one is what scares people. The thought of raising a child who will never be able to communicate much, never have friends, meaningful employment, travel, live independently, have a family of their own… And they do well to be scared. My vaccine-damaged, autistic daughter is like that, and it scares me to death to think of what’s going to happen to her when I’m gone. The schools don’t get it at all, current speech therapy is completely useless and doesn’t get autism at all, the city has no idea how it’s going to care for its deluge of autistic kids when the parents are gone…. Just trusting that you guys are right, that it’s only better diagnosis, that the numbers are not greater than before, and that something must suddenly kick in to allow what LOOKS like a permanently disabled population to be able to get a job, an apartment, and start paying taxes. What a joke!

          • demodocus' spouse
            May 1, 2015 at 9:51 pm #

            I only see my cousin about once every 3 years, and I understood him just fine.
            My husband *is* permanently disabled from a vaccine preventable disease.. And holding down a job. Its harder to get one if you have a disability, but not impossible by any means. My husband was born with cataracts thanks to rubella, and developed glaucoma as a complication of the cataract removal surgery (in 1976). You should hear some of the utterly foolish comments we get sometimes. It’s worse if it’s the parents who are trying to handicap their child even more than Nature did. Our son, btw, got his 1st MMR 3 days after his first birthday and his 2nd 2 months later.
            There are undoubtably many people in group homes and institutions where were taken for simply mentally retarded who are in fact autistic. That doesn’t mean autism hasn’t been around, just frequently unrecognized, especially when you still hear of adults who’ve been diagnosed in the last 10 years.
            I don’t know where your child falls on the spectrum, but remember, almost by definition, autism does not manifest to the same degree in everybody.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:02 pm #

            I am working very hard to try to recover my daughter: the school did nothing at all, just raised all her Fs to As and thought that solved the problem of her not understanding anything or being given anything she could do. We’re using ESL books, and she can now use the words “some” and “any,” which she was never able to use before. It’s very hard, she has never used an adjective spontaneously. The brain damage wreaks havoc on the inborn grammatical structures of the brain (Chomsky), so that they can no longer help the child the way they are supposed to do, to learn to use language naturally.
            And you’re wrong. Autism is new, it was not around before. Read The Age of Autism, book. It has tripled in incidence just since my daughter was born in 2000, and everyone was well aware of it by then, the doctor and Parents as Teachers, the school personnel, were all well aware of the guidelines for diagnosing autism. It is not better diagnosis, but a real and terrifying increase which will break our society. There were no autistic people around when I was a child (it was technically three in 10,000, which it still was in 1987, but we had never heard of it, and never knew anyone with it). Not true that they were all in institutions: institutions are expensive, and there have never been affordable institutions for one in 36 American children. If they existed before, what happened to them, that they’re no longer there just when we’re going to need them? This is window dressing to calm the public: even Tom Insel of the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (or something like that) admits begrudgingly that it is indeed a real and massive increase. And it’s because of vaccines, which is why California will NOT accept the mandate being shoved down its throat.

          • demodocus' spouse
            May 1, 2015 at 11:22 pm #

            Autism starts in utero. You cannot “recover” your daughter to a typical brain any more than my mother in law can “recover” her sighted firstborn. What you can do is find work arounds.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 7:42 am #

            Newsflash: Chomsky’s generative grammar has been proven to be a mere unsubstantiated hypothesis, especially with latest MRI powered neurolinguistic research results.

            It is great that you are using ESL materials and methodology because it is more suitable than monolingual acquisition approach ( it works on the assumption of overcoming difficulties and identifying production problems in advance as opposed to just building on top of native speaker abilities), but you should consult with qualified speech development specialists because ESL method can only be used as an aid, not as replacement of speech therapy.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 1, 2015 at 9:53 pm #

            It’s perfectly reasonable to be scared of having a disabled child. We naturally want our children to be happy and healthy and able to do anything and everything. But humans have lived with disabilities for the entire history of the species.

            In the last century, humanity has gotten really good at keeping people alive for much longer than they would in a pre-technological society.

            100 years ago, someone with autism would have been called simple, or a moron. They would have been given the most menial jobs, or simply locked away in an asylum to be forgotten. They likely would have died earlier deaths, due to any number of reasons.

            Adults with severe forms of autism today live in group homes with specialized care, or with their families. Not all of them were diagnosed with autism as children. That doesn’t mean they are not autistic.

            There is not some huge wave of disabled children waiting to grow up and overwhelm social services because vaccines. Now polio survivors? That’s another post.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 10:08 pm #

            It IS huge wave of disabled children which will overwhelm social services. Read Dachel’s The Great Autism Cover-Up. Autism is new, did not exist before vaccines, before this very specific type of brain damage. The rate was one in 150 in 2000 when my daughter is born: the CDC announced last month that it’s now one in 50 (U. of Minnesota said two years ago that it’s one in 36). Can you find the asylums which used to take them fifteen years ago? No, because this is just a story. Even in the ’30, institutions were expensive: the well-to-do professional family of Bridget Muncie, one of the first cohort of Dr. Kanner’s autistic children in the late ’30s, was institutionalized,, but her family had a terrible time paying for it. This is just a soothing fantasy to try to reassure people that this is not a crisis, when it’s the worst crisis ever to confront our society. And Californians know it, and will have no part of this literal decimation of society to serve the interests of the vaccine companies.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 11:35 pm #

            The term is new, but the first well documented case is from 1747.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#History

            Just because we only learned anything about how the mind works in the last 100 years does not mean that nothing existed prior to that.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 1, 2015 at 11:00 pm #

            100 years ago, someone with autism would have been called simple, or a moron.

            Or just plain strange. A lot of the increase in diagnosis is among people with mild disease. When I was a kid, my parents had this conversation with teachers several times:
            Teacher: Your kid is strange and doesn’t fit in socially.
            Parents: …So?
            If I were a kid today, they’d probably get me tested for asperger’s early on. Would it have helped? Eh, who knows. Would have altered the statistics on the incidence of autism certainly.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 7:27 am #

            I know at least 5 of the people I went to school with (graduated high school in 1992) have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum as adults. These were all kids who were in the gifted and talented classes from at least 4th grade, but were always a little, well, strange. Now, I am fairly certain they were all vaccinated, but they are also not overwhelming public services and unable to function. All have good jobs and apparently relatively happy lives.

            My nephew is also on the spectrum. He’s 6 months younger than my neurotypical son and yes, you can notice a difference between them but both are doing well academically, have their own particular interests and will likely lead productive lives as adults.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 2, 2015 at 8:57 am #

            Good point. Also, I’ve read many descriptions of people in historical accounts or older fiction who would likely be diagnosed today but who were simply viewed as odd or strange.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 2:54 pm #

            It is a spectrum disorder. In other words some people will have dramatic levels of disability whole others will simply be “quirky.”

          • JJ
            May 1, 2015 at 8:38 pm #

            I support SB277! Protect all children in schools and communities! I have healthy children who are fully immunized but I am SO evil I want children who are not even my own to have the privilege to stay disease-free and alive!

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:15 pm #

            And don’t care at all how many are disabled or killed by the vaccines.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 1, 2015 at 9:23 pm #

            When the number of children disabled or killed by disease is substantially higher than those harmed by vaccines, the choice is clear. We can care about those harmed by something while acknowledging that the number of injured would be far greater otherwise.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 9:44 pm #

            At this time almost half of American children are impaired by vaccines (asthma, allergies, etc., as well as autism in one in 36). None of the VPDs would take such a toll even if no one vaxed for them. Germany, Sweden, and Japan stopped giving the pertussis vaccine for many years because of the damage it caused (Japan stopped giving it to children under two, and its SIDS rate immediately plunged to lowest in the developed world). Sweden saw less than one death a year from pertussis, less than the death toll the vaccine had taken. Dr. Strom said in 1960 that pertussis had become so much milder that he didn’t recommend routine vaccination for all children. Both my daughter and I had it, and it was unpleasant, but not that big a deal. Measles killed one in every 10,000 cases in the US in 1960: 99% of kids, including me, got it by the age of 18.
            Until 1988, the only vaccines given were DPT, MMR, and polio. We didn’t have any of the others, and no one ever expressed a wish for them, no one I ever knew had a bad case of any of them. Very few, if any, children were dying of them. Everyone just lived their lives doing the same things we do now, and these diseases didn’t impinge upon the lives of the vast majority at any time. When I was a child, we didn’t have the MMR, and didn’t need it, no one ever expressed a wish for it. I got measles and rubella, still had the antibodies when I was pregnant and needed them. We didn’t need the DPT: diphtheria was long gone, pertussis was no longer dangerous. The tetanus vaccine may or may not have been useful. Even at its height, tetanus only killed about 120 Americans in one year: most people never had it even though there was not yet any vax for it. Polio only ever affected a tiny percentage of those exposed to it: most got immunity through subclinical exposure or a mild flu-like illness (like E68 last year). It may take exposure to pesticides before you have a crippling case.
            In any case, vaccines are now doing horrendous damage which is far worse than what we’d see even if no one got any vax.

          • DaisyGrrl
            May 1, 2015 at 9:56 pm #

            When I was growing up, one of my neighbour’s children was hospitalized for encephalitis brought on by chickenpox. He survived, but it was very scary for everyone.

            I’m thrilled that there’s a vaccine that can prevent people from experiencing the fear that my neighbour went through.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 4:18 am #

            “At this time almost half of American children are impaired by vaccines (asthma, allergies, etc., as well as autism in one in 36)”

            You are insane to say that, in fact, I believe that you are the most insane antivaxxo to visit this blog if judged on the number of supposed “victims of vaccine damage” that you claim.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 2:51 pm #

            Complete and utter horse manure.
            Somehow I think those who lived through the polio pandemics would to put it mildly disagree.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W
            May 2, 2015 at 6:25 pm #

            The most amazing BarkingBN’s input into animal psychology is “somehow I think”.
            Now it is proven – dogs can think!

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

            At least horse manure is useful. What ciaparker2 is producing here can’t even be composted.

          • Bugsy
            May 2, 2015 at 10:56 am #

            Me too!

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 2:47 pm #

            For someone with a PhD your critical thinking skills are noticeably deficient.

            It is a pretty broad statement to say “There has not been a single case that has been cited to show that even a single unvaxed child has given a classmate a disabling or fatal case of any vaccine-preventable disease.” An unvaccinated child can be asymptomatic and still contagious for several days before becoming clinically ill. All the while spreading their illness to others.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W
            May 2, 2015 at 6:27 pm #

            And dogs can think about vaccines (albeit incoherently)! And they can have canine RN degree.

          • ciaparker2
            May 1, 2015 at 6:23 pm #

            Because he is also vehemently respectful of parental choice. Is that so hard to fathom? He thinks vaccines can be dangerous, but usually aren’t. He thinks it’s usually a good idea to get them. BUT he’s not a dictator like most of those in the medical cartel are. He recognizes that vaccines CAN cause horrible damage, and is unwilling to force parents to take that risk if they prefer not to. I disagree with him that vaccines usually aren’t dangerous, but I certainly admire and respect his willingness to respect parental choice where there is any risk, as there is from vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 1, 2015 at 6:42 pm #

            Why is “parental choice” such a special thing, that it must be respected above the actual best interests of the child?

          • Who?
            May 1, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

            Because of the primacy of the feral rights argument. All rights, no responsibility. No social contract. No society. Just a bunch of frightened, angry people blaming everyone else for their first world woes.

          • Roadstergal
            May 1, 2015 at 7:14 pm #

            It’s because they view children as chattel. Not people.

            Rand Paul: “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 8:44 am #

            And SB277 allows parental choice. It just adds parental RESPONSIBILITY. And this is why anti-vaxxers oppose it.

          • VikingRN
            May 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm #

            Degree inflation? A law degree gives you zero credibility for discussing immunology. If you have a PhD (which I highly doubt) it is from a non accredited life experience diploma mill.
            Unless your PhD is in a health science it has essentially zero credibility.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 2, 2015 at 6:11 pm #

            If you have a PhD (which I highly doubt) it is from a non accredited life experience diploma mill.
            Unless your PhD is in a health science it has essentially zero credibility.

            Oh, she has a legitimate PhD from University of Missouri – Columbia, not a diploma mill.

            Admittedly, it is in Spanish Literature, so means nothing in terms of any health science or any science. But like any crank, she likes to parade her PhD around as if it makes her special.

            PhDs around here are a dime a dozen.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 6:28 pm #

            Right! It makes them feel special on their mommy blogs, but on here more people have advanced degrees than not.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W
            May 2, 2015 at 6:29 pm #

            And dogs can even bark at human’s law or PhD degree!

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 6:37 pm #

            Can you behave like an adult online please? Drop the sock puppet and reply to that person if you need to directly. It ain’t entertaining to anyone but you.

        • Marilyn Lachey
          May 2, 2015 at 2:16 pm #

          Of course they are ALL quacks; it’s rather laughable actually. That line was so much easier to buy into when there was only one doctor. The many doctors, pediatricians, microbiologists, biochemists, pediatricians, or public health experts that have the same qualifications, credentials and experience and attended the same schools, are board certified and licensed are all quacks; interesting opinion that’s very easy to suggest in order to support your stance, but most intelligent people aren’t buying it anymore. They can read, research and come to their own conclusions. We live in a day when we can readily access information instead of relying on whatever mainstream media feeds; it’s quite liberating actually! It’s obvious why more doctors, scientists, microbiologists and biochemists don’t speak out publically; if they do they risk losing their careers and getting maligned and discredited. How many doctors and others have the integrity and courage it takes to speak out on their concerns about vaccine safety if it means their careers would be over or greatly suffer? Not too many; most people would prefer to trade their values in for benefits. It’s always been this way; look at all the people in the world that have had to fight for a better society and put their lives at risk; not too many in this big world right? They do exist though; I applaud their courage and integrity. Of course there are some of these experts who are not totally against vaccines; nor am I. They merely question the safety and efficacy of some vaccines. Many parents are questioning the same and with valid reason. The fact there’s a vaccine court in the USA, millions of dollars paid out to vaccine injured, Merck facing federal fraud charges and the fact there is a pro vaccine campaign that is pulling out all the stops to ensure their profits don’t suffer is enough for me and others to question vaccine safety with good reason.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 2:35 pm #

            A) What percentage of medical doctors actually claim vaccines are definitely harmful?
            B) How can one determine the validity and value of information found on the internet?

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 2, 2015 at 3:31 pm #

            That’s right..you got me…there’s absolutely nothing valid on the internet! Intelligent people should listen to mainstream media only because they are independent and objective! Come on, seriously! The fact is; we live in an information era and as Hillary Clinton said, “we are losing the information war” Gone are the days when people sat in their living rooms watching mainstream media and believing everything we were told. The internet has allowed people to research and network with others. It’ s a wonderful thing!

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 3:46 pm #

            Beautiful strawman there.

            Now would you like to address the actual questions? Or are you actually incapable of doing so?

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 2, 2015 at 4:21 pm #

            I didn’t know what you were referring to when you said, Straw man so guess what I did? I looked it up on the internet!!! ROTFL. I did get the opportunity to understand what logical fallacies are as well.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:06 pm #

            I’m glad you got the opportunity to learn something, and took it. No one has denied that the internet contains useful information. It’s how you sift through the masses of information to find what is actually true, or at least backed by sufficient evidence at this current time, that matters. I could, in seconds, find “information” on at least 4 different theories of 9/11. Are they all right? Of course not. It’s not finding information that is hard with the internet, it is determining its value.

            Now, please address the actual questions.

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 2, 2015 at 5:14 pm #

            Don’t worry yourself about us…intelligent people know how to research . I think we’re more than. capable of “sifting” through the information and coming to our own conclusions. Thanks for your concern though.

          • Cobalt
            May 2, 2015 at 5:15 pm #

            You still haven’t answered the question…

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:16 pm #

            You seem to be incapable of explaining how one does this, and in your case it does not seem to involve much consideration of the source. If over 90% of specialists in any field agree, it is far more likely that the majority is correct than incorrect. The only reason the cases in which that is not the case are remembered is preceisely because they are unusual.

            Intelligent people are just as capable of being led astray by biases in their own thinking and logical fallacies as the less intelligent. Their ability to rationalise actually may make it easier.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 5:23 pm #

            It is concerning that you have so much confidence in your ability to research but keep coming to the most illogical conclusions.

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 2, 2015 at 5:27 pm #

            Anyone that says anything against vaccines is illogical to a paid shill.

          • Wren
            May 2, 2015 at 5:42 pm #

            Ah, now we are back to the claim we are all paid shills.

            Arguments are much easier when you can just dismiss any inconvenient evidence with an unevidenced claim the provider is a shill.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 2, 2015 at 6:26 pm #

            Well, I know you need to lie to yourself and tell your self these things, but the truth of the matter is the specific things you are saying are illogical to a trained scientist.

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 3, 2015 at 8:08 am #

            Yup..that’s right…all the parents that are concerned about the safety and efficacy of vaccines are lying to themselves, nuts, wacko , blah blah blah…keep telling that to yourselves. You’re not convincing anyone. Furthermore, once people know about astroturfers and paid shills; they can smell you bums a mile away…you have zero credibility.

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 8:23 am #

            Actually, most are probably just confused and unsure who to trust. Rather than relying on experts who have dedicated their lives to the study of the subject, they often come across those who make claims without evidence that appear easier to understand and are, in some ways, soothing.

          • Wren
            May 3, 2015 at 8:24 am #

            As you are so certain there are paid shills here, name them and provide some kind of evidence for each. Otherwise all it is is baseless accusations in place are refutations of the evidence for vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 2, 2015 at 8:28 pm #

            Research? Do you have any publications that I can look at?

          • Marilyn Lachey
            May 3, 2015 at 8:04 am #

            Been there done it..not falling for it again. It doesn’t matter what I post..even the researchers with peer reviewed studies. They are all quacks and all amazingly discredited. As I said, intelligent people will do the research and come to their own conclusios.

          • yugaya
            May 2, 2015 at 4:29 pm #

            AAP, over 60 000 members, their official web page on vaccine safety (for those who like to educate themselves by utilising credible web sources): http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

          • Nick Sanders
            May 2, 2015 at 4:11 pm #

            It absolutely must be a grand conspiracy, they couldn’t possibly be in the minority because they are wrong.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 1, 2015 at 11:01 am #

        Why are you posting on this 6 year old post when you have been specifically invited to take the discussion to a much more recent post?

    • VikingRN
      May 2, 2015 at 2:35 pm #

      Or nurses or nurse practitioners or clinical nurse specialists…..

    • disqus_k3oycamN0W
      May 2, 2015 at 7:08 pm #

      If you wanted “anti-vaxxers” to “join discussion” you had to wright something that makes sense first.
      Looks like computer wrote something randomly for you above. Not even good to ridicule, too boring
      Bye, bue, “MD” Tutu, moderator of your own “article”
      Let this masterpiece be liked by many paid pharma trolls

      • Wren
        May 2, 2015 at 7:38 pm #

        Is there supposed to be some kind of insult in the fact Dr Tuteur moderates her blog?

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 2, 2015 at 7:55 pm #

          I think that is a child. Even if not, I would leave it alone

      • Box of Salt
        May 2, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

        disqus_k3oycamN0W
        “you had to wright something that makes sense first.”

        You should follow your own advice.

  7. yugaya
    April 28, 2015 at 4:36 pm #

    This post is clogging up and getting hard to load because of too many comments.May I suggest we all evacuate to the most recent SOB post on the subject of vaccines?

    http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/04/scientists-discover-biologic-defect-at-the-root-of-anti-vaccine-advocacy-conspira-scopic-vision.html

  8. The Computer Ate My Nym
    April 28, 2015 at 12:24 pm #

    There’s a long thread with a lot of fuss and bother about vaccines not being tested. So I’d like to propose that someone, preferably someone against universal vaccination to be most fair, suggest a specific vaccine and then we can discuss what tests have been done to demonstrate its safety and efficacy and whether these tests are adequate. I’d suggest one of the newer vaccines, simply because dredging the data up on polio or small pox would be a real pain, but am willing to go with whatever vaccine anyone wants to discuss. Takers?

    • Daleth
      April 28, 2015 at 12:39 pm #

      MMR. But full disclosure: I’m pro-universal vaccination.