The latest “argument” of vaccine rejectionists

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I blog in a variety of places with a variety of different audiences, but I am struck by the uniformity of the arguments of vaccine rejectionists. It’s not surprising, though, when you consider that they are not reaching their conclusions independently, but rather regurgitating seemingly “impressive” arguments they have read on vaccine rejection websites.

The latest such “argument” is that the safety and efficacy of vaccines have never been proven because they have not been subjected to a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo. This “argument” is designed to impress those with a minimal knowledge of statistics. In other words, it is designed to impress those who know enough statistics to realize that anecdotes are not a substitute for scientific studies and are familiar with the concept that a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo is the “gold standard” in some areas of drug research.

Unfortunately, they don’t know enough to realize that controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical in certain circumstances, including the testing of vaccines. So what is presented on vaccine rejection websites as a startling and inexplicable refusal of scientists to test vaccines is actually the inevitable result of complying with ethical rules for scientific investigations.

There are many situations in which controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical. Consider infant carseats:

Do carseats minimize the risk of injury and death of infants?

There never been a controlled randomized double blind study of carseats. Why not? Because it is unethical to randomize some infants to be unbelted in cars simply so we can check how many will be injured and die.

Does that mean we don’t know if carseats reduce the risk of injury and death? Of course not. There are a myriad of statistical investigations that allow us to determine whether carseats reduce injury and death, including large scale population studies, retrospective cohort studies and many others.

So the fact that there are no controlled randomized double blind studies of vaccines is a red herring. It works only on those who don’t understand science and statistics. On them, of course, it works very well.

Vaccine rejectionists, like many Americans, simply don’t understand statistics. This is a serious problem because Americans are exposed to a tremendous amount of statistical information and are required to make many decisions based that information.

An article in the journal Public Understanding of Science explains:

We live in a statistics-rich society: statistics permeates many aspects of life—from media, health, and work to citizenship. In the media, we can observe a growing emphasis on statistical results. This is particularly the case in health and medical reporting which tend to be the most compelling scientific issues for citizens … The understanding of these statistical components is crucial to help citizens participate in public debate and arrive at political decisions.

Statistical misunderstandings are very common and lead to cynicism about science and medicine.

Statistics requires the ability to consider things from a probabilistic perspective, and to employ quantitative technical and abstract concepts such as significance, margin of errors, and representativeness. Since these concepts are difficult to understand, statistical misunderstandings can often be observed in the everyday but also in the media and research results. It is important to clear up these misunderstandings, as they lead to the misuse of study results, and the development of a distrustful or cynical attitude toward statistics.

Vaccine rejectionists, you’ve been tricked … again. How many times do you have to be tricked before you realize that you are being victimized by your lack of knowledge of science and statistics?

 

N.B. I’ve closed the comments for this thread because it is in danger of crashing the site. Feel free to continue the discussion at The extraordinary conceitedness of being an anti-vaxxer.

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  • Amazed

    Dr Amy, I think this post will do what the first huge vaccine one did – shut the site down. Can you close the comments and ask the antis to please pack their nonsense and carry it to a newer post?

  • Sue

    “The more BIG Pharma does to you,the less you seem to believe they are doing it.”

    • yugaya

      Riiiiightsy.

      • Cobalt

        But is it an

  • Sue

    I highly disgusted you would use the comparison of a car seat to suggest the reason why there is no double blind study of vaccines.. for one car seats do not effect the babies/child’s body health.. it is not toxic.. so in your opinion
    Amy Tuteur.. because of this there is no reason to study the safety of the toxic chemical we put into our babies and children.. Why do you not talk to all the parents and the children of vaccine injuries.. …

    • Wren

      Why do you believe that vaccines have not been studied, over and over and over in fact?

      • Sue

        Really you think a short study on the vaccines in childrens bodies compares to a life time of damage..REALLY

        • Wren

          Do you think that surveillance stops after the initial vaccine approval?

        • Proponent

          Sue: “Really you think a short study on the vaccines in childrens bodies compares to a life time of damage..REALLY”

          What ‘short study’?

          Be specific.. and provide a link and/or a name of this ‘short study’.

          • Sue

            How about you showing me all the studies done from scientist that are not part of BIG Pharma or paid for by BIG Pharma.. or a conflict interest.. please show me these very long studies from unbiased studies… before vaccines to make sure they are safe.. and after vaccination..Please do..and also a study that shows how safe it is to give so many vaccines at one time together.. Please do..

          • Proponent

            Stop evading..

            What ‘short study’?

            Be specific.. and provide a link and/or a name of this ‘short study’.

    • yugaya

      “why there is no double blind study of vaccines”

      For the same reason why there is no double blind study of baby car seats.

      • Sue

        Comparison car seat not physical.. and a baby flesh and blood.. oh what planet are you on you silly silly person….

        • yugaya

          “car seat not physical”

          Take this as a friendly advice and go and seek help ASAP.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis#Delusions

          • Sue

            No car seat is not physical living breathing flesh and blood it is for the safety of a child as is a eat belt.. but our babies are living breathing little bundles of joy.. then there is vaccine damage….you are just repeating what is said above.. but don’t have the brains to understand…

          • Who?

            Yuyuga would need a railway spike through her head to be able to understand the absolute rubbish you are peddling.

          • yugaya

            More than one I’m afraid. :))) Whichever way you start tackling it, soaring brainpain is certain – whether I am to take that she believes that car seats are astral objects (pending disclosure on what she means when she uses the word “physical”) , or that she believes that “flesh and blood” are beyond the realm of reality that includes everyday objects like car seats, or that only things made of flesh and blood are the ones that exist physically in our world…

          • Who?

            We’ll both be happier not delving far into that morass, it’s not a great neighbourhood.

            And I’m not sure she is making the compelling case for no hereditary element in autism that she thinks she is.

          • Sue

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Proponent

            Stop spamming.. stay on point..

          • Amazed

            Now she’s at her documentaries again. Neighbour, what about the two of us lucky ladies feel sentimental together? Remember what the great Lenin said? Something about giving the masses their movies because that’s the only thing they would understand, books being fat beyond their scope of reach? Of course, he was talking about indoctrinating into the One True Faith and showing what happened to those who fought back. But she makes such a compelling case about his sound reasoning. When unable to grasp a more complex concept, they jump up and down at anything they can see and they can never tell right from wrong. But they saw it, it looked good, so it must be true!

          • Sue

            ha ha.. now the violent talk.. love to know you are discussing me.. what a privileged….

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

        • Who?

          Keep talking Sue you are the winner of the ‘sharing the provax story’ for today.

          You make all antivaxxers look like vicious morons.

          Easy work, you are well suited to it.

          • Sue

            More personal attacks honey.. you are certainly a nice person..lol

    • Proponent

      Why don’t you..

      i) Stop rushing onto forums and posting, commenting.
      ii) Take note of the communities and respective forums that you post on.. before you do? (Content, users, et al.)

      ‘Cause..

      By not doing any of the aforementioned.. you are like that someone that bursts into a room.. simply engaging their mouth before brain as an uninvited guest.

      Or, in other words.. an unwelcomed guest that seemingly feels it is their right to do and say as they please.

      And more to the point..

      There are some considerate and knowledgeable posters/commenters on this forum.. and you could do right, by yourself and your child.. by availing yourself of the informational resources here. Rather than that of alienating yourself through your adversarial approach.

      Some.. as I’ve read through comments (not all).. are living what you proclaim to be living and could be allies.. not.. foes. In short.. resources.. people to connect with, learn from.

    • yugaya

      “for one car seats .. it is not toxic..”

      I love it how the multitude of paranoid tendencies results in antivaxx crowd eating their own words: http://www.watoxics.org/toxicswatch/kids2019-car-seats-still-contain-dangerous-chemicals

      • Sue

        Oh dear yugaya..dear yugaya..dear yugaya.. are you really pulling words to bits dear yugaya….this is just a stupid as it can get dear yugaya.. you are such a wally..Oh don’t forget to post back dear yugaya.. I am so enjoying the laugh…

        • yugaya

          I see that you haven’t been able to come up with a side dig at my username. You need help with that?

          • Sue

            ??????? why would i need or even be bothered to have a side dig at your name.. I think it is your game to use that type of behavior.. You are like a little child.. saying such blo..dy ridiculous things..

          • yugaya

            “??????? why would i need or even be bothered to have a side dig at your name..”

            Because that is what you have done in reply to Roadstergal. Not to mention adressing people with “HONEY”.

          • Sue

            I started using honey as someone called me honey.. and as I know that people responding to my post are one in the same.. using multiple names.. as to the using honey .. and thank you for being so interested in me.. I am over whelmed by your attention lol….

          • Proponent

            Sue: “Oh dear yugaya..dear yugaya..dear yugaya.. are you really pulling words to bits dear yugaya….this is just a stupid as it can get dear yugaya.. you are such a wally..Oh don’t forget to post back dear yugaya.. I am so enjoying the laugh…”

            No attempt at condescension and/or a ‘dig’, then?

            Of course, clearly it was.. since you added ‘stupid’ and ‘wally’.

  • Dr Kitty

    Nobody tell Chris we make insulin from bacteria which has been genetically modified to produce human insulin.
    Oh, and nobody tell him that we then add amino acids to the insulin molecules in order to change the duration of action.

    Because, I mean franken-bacteria, “synthetic” hormones not found in nature, drug companies making billions worldwide from insulin sales, people injecting themselves multiple times a day with this toxic artificial concoction, a diabetic epidemic in the developed world…it must be a conspiracy!!!!!
    There’s probably an autism/ eugenics agenda in there.

    Oh, wait, no…
    Diabetics now live longer, healthier lives than they have at any point in history.

    • Cobalt

      Maybe no one should explain that despite years of sky high levels of HCG in my bloodstream, not only did my penis not shrink, I grew two new ones!

      • Wren

        I only grew one new one.

        • Cobalt

          With continued exposure, the odds of the second one making an appearance increase. Definitely a dose dependent risk.

      • Chris

        Great. You do have a sense of humor. I was beginning to wonder.

        • Cobalt

          The lies you believe and spread aren’t funny.

          • Sue

            Lies .. This is the same old story if anyone disagrees with VACCINES ask questions.. they are either lairs.. misinformed or quacks.. Please tell me what is the cause of Autism .. and why it is now an epidemic.. and don’t tell me it is better diagnosis.. as where are all the thousands upon thousands of Autistic adults.. in their 30’s 40’s 50’s 60’s …and why are pole getting sicker and sicker in 2015… Oh yes Toxic chemicals in vaccines..GMO..ROUNDUP.. etc etc.. who is the liar???????? .

          • Cobalt

            Every single one of your demonstrably false claims (and they are all demonstrably false) is addressed down thread.

          • Roadstergal

            Jeez, yes. Come on, Sue, just read down thread a little…

          • Sue

            By who people on BIG Pharma payroll..

          • Nick Sanders

            Is there any evidence that would sway you whatsoever? Is there anything at all that you would not simply dismiss as propaganda?

          • Sue

            I was a believer once.. and i have lived with the devastation of vaccine damage.. I have seen the devastation of vaccine damage.. There needs to be studies on different vaccines given at the same time..and if vaccines are in society there needs to not be so many.we cannot stop everything.. and if you think we can well you have not thought this out very ell….To give give Hep B to a new born baby is criminal.. there needs to be choices.. If people want to vaccinate their children that is their choice.. FREEDOM of choice to make decisions about our own bodies and that of our families should not be placed in the states hands..Studies should be done on the after effects.. long term studies.. and on the n on vaccinated etc etc.. but no… how can this possible be right…

          • Nick Sanders

            “and i have lived with the devastation of vaccine damage.. I have seen the devastation of vaccine damage..”
            Sure you have.

            ” There needs to be studies on different vaccines given at the same time”
            There are.

            “and if vaccines are in society there needs to not be so many.”
            Why not?

            “To give give Hep B to a new born baby is criminal.”
            How so?

            “Studies should be done on the after effects.. long term studies.. and on the n on vaccinated etc etc”

            There have been.

          • Sue

            Hey Nicky baby.. I don’t have a memory loss know what I wrote….. lol.. so funny…. Hey show me the many studies done please.. the long term ones that were done properly by non BIG Pharma and those who did not gain from BIG Pharma.. show me the independent studies that have been done when given a multitude of vaccines at one time to a baby/children…if these difference toxic chemicals even go together.. is there a reaction to putting all these chemicals together…. how long has the study been over.. 5 years.. 10 years.. 20 years… Mmm love to see these studies.. and now many out of these studies got other diseases. that there was no history of in their families.. Please show me Nicky baby…..

          • yugaya

            Dear fellow shills of the higher order,

            I would really appreciate a paycheck.

            Thanks.

          • Who?

            Yes I haven’t seen mine either.

          • Fallow

            Well, you sure sound like a unimpeachable public health scholar.

          • Sue

            Oh I see so I have to be a health scholar to know there is a very very big concern that autism is an epidemic.. cancer rates have skyrocketed in our children.. neurological disease have skyrockets.. look and our children and people are getting sicker and this is 2015.. and they still use Chemo and Radiation treat cancer… and people like you are happy about this….. Well I am not…. And I am not happy seeing BIG Pharma making such prophets out of having their customers from cradle to the grave..I am not happy our babies are getting sicker.. But you are.. sad….

          • Nick Sanders

            “and they still use Chemo and Radiation treat cancer… ”

            As opposed to?

          • Roadstergal

            Chemo cures formerly fatal childhood cancers. Every year chemo gets better and better (silly scientists, never satisfied). It’s a darn good option for sure.

          • Sue

            Exactly.. every time someone mentions other ways of combating cancer it is quackery.. but the cancer treatments generally kill the person with cancer before the cancer does.. and the quality of life using these treatments is just bl..dy cruel

          • Nick Sanders

            Evidence please.

          • Sue

            Oh really.. you are joking …

          • Poogles

            “so I have to be a health scholar”

            Not necessarily, but being literate would help (hint: it isn’t “prophet” it’s “profit”).

          • Sue

            Well isn’t BIG Pharma the prophets of so called vaccines?????

          • Wren

            I am so thankful they use chemo and radiation to treat cancer. Having my mother alive so beats losing her to cancer.

            And isn’t it amazing how learning more about illnesses and being able to diagnose them leads to a higher incidence? It’s almost like things went undiagnosed because we didn’t know much about them and weren’t looking for them, isn’t it? Add in far fewer people dying and maimed by vaccine preventable diseases than in historical times, and a rise in childhood cancers, autism, etc are practically inevitable.

          • Sue

            And my mother died through the treatment.. If you are going to suggest this is a cure.. maybe you need to look at the statistics of Chemo and Radiation the very things that cause cancer MM wow people are so gullible..History will look back on this barbaric treatment and know exactly why it was around so long to make money for BIG Pharma…..

          • Who?

            And what about my several friends who are alive 10 or 20 years after cancer treatment. You provide an anecdote, I’ll provide 10 that disagree.

            Or are mine irrelevant anecdotes, since they don’t fit your world view.

            Just trying to play the game your way.

          • yugaya

            “Chemo and Radiation the very things that cause cancer”

            Interventions cause complications.

            Education causes learning disabilities.

            And so on…

          • Sue

            Once again Kettle black.. what about the thousands who are alive from alternative treatments..

            And isn’t it sad you had so many many friends with cancer. another raging epidemic.. Mmm BIG Pharma.. all the GMO and pesticides (ROUNDUP) a cancer causing weed spary.. the cancer rates are rising so so fast.. anyone reading this go to this site.. see for yourself.. watch the videos

            http://thetruthaboutcancer.com/

          • Who?

            The longer people live, not dying of measles and diabetes and other things we can now deal with, the more likely they are to get cancer.

            I suppose you hate GMO as well even though that means using less Roundup?

          • Sue

            I despise GMO and I will fight to my last breath to not allow it to take over Australia and New Zealand as it has done to America.. are you for real GMO OMG that says it all…

          • Wren

            In all likelihood, future treatments will make current ones look barbaric. I hope they do. I hope we get easy, permanent, painless fixes for everything eventually. How that is relevant to what we have the capability to do today escapes me.

            Yes, among other things radiation and chemicals can be carcinogenic, but as it stands surgery, radiation and chemo are what we have that can actually treat and cure some cancers. Even though my grandfather’s lung cancer was too far advanced and too aggressive to be cured, I am thankful for those who can be cured and extremely thankful that my mother is still here over a decade after being treated for breast cancer.

            Dose and risk seem to be concepts that are very poorly understood by many anti-vaxers. The risk of radiation when there is no benefit is too high. When it carries the potential to cure cancer, that risk is more acceptable. And, always, the dose makes the poison.

          • Sue

            What burns and radiate our bodies what cuts our bodies open… this is good eh.. yes there maybe those who choose to go down that track.. and they are free to choose.. well for now that is.. but maybe you should watch the videos on “The Truth About Cancer” and maybe you should see how there are healthy alternatives..or at least side by side.. but you are so closed minded…

          • Who?

            Tell that to Jess Ainscough and her mother.

            Or did they not do it right?

          • Sue

            Have you any idea of the thousand upon thousand of people who I could name who are did from Radiation .. and Chemno treatment.. what sort of person are you .. you are sick…You would rather scare people off than give them a chance.. sick…
            http://thetruthaboutcancer.com/

          • Who?

            Oh do us another long list!!!

          • Wren

            I prefer treatments which have been proven to work, even with risks, to those which have not.

          • Sue

            Oh yes.. Radiation certainly has good out comes % .. NOt and what about CHEMO .. don’t think so.. and of course there is the vaccine for Gardasil who is destroying young lives.. and even if it did work would not know for 20.. 30.. even 40 years.. come on…

            Just look at one example of the many many times we the public as be lied to about the safety of vaccines..Gardasil

            One of the many many things that BIG Pharma does to manipulate and lie to the public.Read on.. and you want us to believe they are truthful… Merck Laboratories failed to use an inert placebo during clinical trials, thereby manipulating data and marketing Gardasil under false pretences.
            Gardasil vaccine: Spain joins growing list of countries to file criminal complaints against manufacturer

            Attorney Don Manuel Saez Ochoa filed a criminal complaint against Merck-Sanofi Pasteur Laboratories, Spanish National Health authorities, and the regional health authorities of the La Rioja province on behalf of Zuriñe Jimenez Guereño and her mother Doña Maria del Carmen Jimenez Guereño for injuries and disabilities suffered by Zuriñe after the administration of Gardasil. (Story by Norma Erickson, republished fromSaneVac.org)

            The complaint states that Merck Laboratories failed to use an inert placebo during clinical trials, thereby manipulating data and marketing Gardasil under false pretences. Despite complaints of several young women with similar new medical conditions after Gardasil injections, the Spanish health authorities ignored calls for a moratorium on the use of Gardasil until the safety issues were resolved.

          • Wren

            Gardasil injuries? Most, if not all, of the massive claims of injury have been shown false.

            As for radiation, yep, it sure did work well. Mom’s still here, and she likes to joke about the added bonus of a boob lift on that side since it tightened everything up.

            Treatment isn’t always pleasant, and adults have the right to refuse it, but it still has the best cure rates out there.

          • Who?

            Great your mum is well.

            The gardasil scare campaign is an outrage.

            When someone dies under treatment, the doctors acknowledge that. When someone dies using ‘alternative’ medicine, they are accused of doing it not quite properly, of not believing enough, or of being surrounded by negative energy. No responsibility there.

          • Sue

            OMG it is so easy for you to lie the rubbish that roles our of your mouth.. there is always doubt whether someone works for BIG Pharma or not.. but such lies you must be paid by BIG Pharma.. or you are just a narcissistic person..You actually have an admiration for yourself…and the rubbish you talk..

          • ArmyChick

            You have officially used up your question mark quota for the year.

          • Medwife

            Elipses, too.

          • Sue

            Oh great lol even control on how people write… ???????????

          • Nick Sanders

            Do you think excessive punctuation somehow improves your point?

          • Sue

            Really this is all you got??????

          • Nick Sanders

            No. But it annoys me all the same.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Please tell me what is the cause of Autism”
            Good question. Researchers have many hypotheses, and nearly as many leads, but the exact reasons have not yet been discovered.

            “as where are all the thousands upon thousands of Autistic adults.. in their 30’s 40’s 50’s 60’s”

            Living undiagnosed, mostly. Much like most mental conditions. Psychiatry sucked hard prior to the 70’s.

          • Sue

            YOu are telling me that all these beautiful children that were born NORMAL and changed over night were around years ago.. come on.. that is just another whitewash story you and BIG Pharma tell parents so they will believe that vaccines are safe….. and you know it….

          • Nick Sanders

            No, I’m telling you they were born autistic.

            http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/03/26/294446735/brain-changes-suggest-autism-starts-in-the-womb

            Also, “normal” is a very value laden word, and is extremely judgmental.

          • Sue

            You have seen every autistic person and spoken to the families have you.. My son was definitely not autistic when he was born.. and there is no history way back both sides of my husbands family and mine of any disabilities..But you know what you say is not true don’t you Nicky..

            “That propaganda is good which leads to success, and that is bad which fails to achieve the desired result. It is not propaganda’s task to be intelligent, its task is to lead to success.”
            ― Joseph Goebbels

          • Poogles

            Many adults are being diagnosed as being on the Autism Spectrum, frequently after their child(ren) have been diagnosed. Also, the human lifespan has only continued to increase with every passing year – so on what data do you base the claim that we are getting “sicker and sicker” in 2015?

          • Sue

            YOu are kidding me.. you are telling me that the number of autism in adults is equivalent to the thousands upon thousand of children who are now diagnosed with autism.. I came from a small country town in New Zealand.. and i was one of the unlucky families whose son was diagnosed in the 1980’s…. no one in my town that I knew had even heard of autism.. now everyone knows what it is.. Do you really think that the countries with high autism rtes are going to be able to cope with the costs of looking after all these adults when their families can no longer.. And if vaccines are so safe.. why can no one in America sue the vaccine companies.. what is that about????? OH!!! Hope you can read my writing……

          • Nick Sanders

            “YOu are kidding me.. you are telling me that the number of autism in adults is equivalent to the thousands upon thousand of children who are now diagnosed with autism”
            Yes.

            “no one in my town that I knew had even heard of autism.. now everyone knows what it is”
            They call this the “information age” for a reason.

            “And if vaccines are so safe.. why can no one in America sue the vaccine companies”

            We totally can.

          • Sue

            Ha ha.. you i word answers… well done Nicky….
            Joseph Goebbels was a doctor.. MMm he would have loved BIG Pharma..

            “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
            ― Joseph Goebbels

            Big Pharma Blackmailed Congress in 1982
            To understand how this happened, we have to turn the clock back to 1982. That is when four big drug companies (Merck, Wyeth, Lederle, Connaught) blackmailed Congress by threatening to stop selling vaccines in America unless a law was passed giving them complete immunity from prosecution. 21

            The pharmaceutical industry knew they were in big trouble because the old, crude whooping cough vaccine in the DPT shot was causing brain inflammation and death in many children; 22 the live oral polio vaccine was crippling children and adults with vaccine strain polio; 23 and Americans were filing lawsuits to hold drug companies responsible for the safety of their products.

          • KarenJJ

            Josef Goebbels had a PhD in literature and wasn’t a medical doctor.

          • Sue

            I stand corrected … he was the Minister of Propaganda..just like BIG Pharma.. Company of Propaganda. thanks for correcting me..

          • Who?

            In our family we have one child on the spectrum in our children’s generation, and I’m going 3 adults undiagnosed on the spectrum when you see my husband and his two siblings, one male, one female. Their aspie characteristics are very clear as we are now seeing what is called autistic/aspie among kids.

            So by those anecdotal numbers there are three times as many among current adults as there are among current kids.

          • Sue

            You are kidding me arn’t you.. you are suggesting to be an expert because of your family.. but when parents explain what has happened in their families to their children and with no history of autism you rubbish them… sadly you are just a Hippocratic….and you call yourself intelligent… Mmm I got news for you???

          • Who?

            Not at all, I’m sharing our story as you shared yours. I’m sorry you think our story is worthless, since it doesn’t fit with your little agenda.

            Again, you are doing the provaxxers job for us, by ignoring us when we apply your values to our experience.

          • Sue

            Not worthless.. just erratic explanations.. and you think you are an expert.. that is the worrying concept..

          • Who?

            Not at all erratic. Same as yours. It’s just that our interpretation of our facts differs from your interpretation of your facts.

            That, in a nutshell, is why anecdotes are not evidence. It’s not worrying that similar anecdotes are interpreted differently, it is entirely expected.

            I know I’m not an expert, I leave interpretation of data to actual experts. You know, people who have studied the subject.

          • Wren

            I am trying to get past the writing style. Forgive me if I get it wrong.

            You seem to be arguing that Who? Is hypocritical for using an anecdote while denying those of others.

            I think you are missing the point here. Anecdotes are and always will be just that. Studies have shown that diagnosis rather than incidence makes up most, if not all, of the increase in number of children with ASD.

          • Sue

            Welll as long as the diagnosis is by doctors and scientists you agree with.. if not they are just quacks.. they need to have the answers you want honey and that is not a good argument…

          • Wren

            There have been changes is the diagnostic criteria. Children who would once have been seen as just weird, or alternatively as mentally retarded on the other end of the spectrum, as now diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum.

          • Sue

            Oh get over yourself that is absolute rubbish rubbish rubbish… and where are all these 30 40 50 and 60 year old people hiding.. rubbish and you know it..

          • Who?

            Three in their fifties in my husband’s family.

            There is my friend’s husband, whose father was also aspie. Father never vaxxed for anything.

            Is that enough anecdata for you? Or doesn’t it count since it doesn’t support your point?

          • Wren

            Which one are you looking for? I think we all remember the weird kids who would now be on the higher functioning end. I know at least 5 I went to high school with have now been diagnosed.

            If you look at numbers of mentally retarded in the past compared to now, well, there’s where the other end of the spectrum are.

            RainMan had a lot of fiction in it, but severely autistic children being hidden away certainly did happen.

          • Sue

            Oh go away you are just absolutely talking rubbish.. and i say to all those reading these post wanting answers.. if you believe this you would believe anything.. they are stating that the number of autism have gone up to epidemic rates.even the CDC admits this. what planet are you one you wally… you are a joke….

          • Who?

            Being a hypocrite is what you are accusing me of, not hippocratic, that is the oath doctors used to take. Some still do I think.

            You’re wrong, by the way, about that. On the other hand it is hypocritcal of you to dismiss my anecdote while hanging your story on the anecdotes of others.

          • Sue

            Oh for goodness sake miss teacher.. get over yourself…miss correction.. lol….and hat are you hanging your beliefs on those scientist who are either paid for or have close contact to BIG Pharma.. Kettle Black//

          • Who?

            I think your head is exploding.

          • Sue

            Kettle black

          • Amazed

            miss teacher, lol. So sweet.

            I can tell the howl of those who were barely able to scrape through first grade from a mile.

            You know why spelling is not such an easy thing? To show who never attended school. People like you.

            How, pray tell, am I supposed to take anything you write seriously when you can’t make basic distinctions? That’s right, I can’t and I won’t… honey.

          • Cobalt

            I’ve never seen a convincing argument that wasn’t a complete sentence.

          • Amazed

            I have.

            Gene Tierney

            But of course, her daughter’s tragedy figures nowhere in Sue’s loving concern for living small babies. Only “vaccine damaged” do. Those who were not autistic as babies, mind you.

          • Sue

            Part of your little troll circle as well .. No worries honey .. just dont post back honey…

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Who?

            You’re rambling again.

            Good job, your money is nearly safe!

          • Sue

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/

            You know what ….THANK YOU for helping me spread the word on the dangers of vaccines..

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Amazed

            Why… honey? You wound me so. Notice that I want you to keep posting.

            I don’t rely on movies, usually. I can read basic science instead and even understand it. I don’t need someone to shove their interpretation down my throat and visualize it for me. I can make the links myself.

          • Sue

            Guess what honey move on don’t read my post simple. or do you not understand the simplicity of that.. lol..

          • yugaya

            EDIT: better example of dealing with functional illiteracy

            http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2000/04/illiteracy.htm

          • Amazed

            Thanks, yugaya. What a great link! Illiteracy matters in more than one way.

          • Who?

            Is it a Scientology link? Is that THE L Ron Hubbard being quoted on the first page? Because the point is fair and valid, but L Ron Hubbard et al make me jumpy.

          • yugaya

            Yeah it was a good quote but the source was erm, of questionable nature to put it mildly. Thus the edit and a better fit link for the context ( patient literacy). 😀

          • SporkParade

            Okay, you want to know the real reason why autism numbers have seem to increased? It’s because we used to take the non-verbal or barely-verbal children, lock them away in institutions, and tell their parents to pretend they didn’t exist.

          • Sue

            Bull.. even the CDC has admitted to the enormous rise in autism numbers.. go away and do your homework properly you wally

          • yugaya

            Yes, as part of kid’s assessment parents get tested as well.

          • Why do you expect us to pay any attention to you when you have so horribly butchered the English language that you have rendered yourself unintelligible? If you want to claim to be educated and knowledgeable, then write like it.

          • Sue

            Oh Feminerd Feminerd Feminerd .. do you really think i give a damn.. and if that is the truth why are you posting to me.. it is because you read another
            post and thought you would have a go on the same topic.. we are not here for a spelling test you wally.. this is all you have OMG.. Do you really think intelligence is weighted on grammar.. you think by belittling people they will run away with their tails between their legs.. I am a tough old gal.. Don’t read what I post and don’t post back.. I will not be offended OK.. and certainly will not miss you….

          • Hey, I was offering constructive criticism. How you present yourself matters. I can’t read what you say, so no matter how brilliant it may be, I simply cannot understand you. If you want to be taken seriously, you should probably present yourself in a not-laughable way.

            No, the grammar criticism isn’t all I have. You’re so off base you’re not even wrong, and I don’t have the spoons to handle that level of inanity right now. Intelligence isn’t based on grammar, but education is usually expressed by proper diction. Your lack of it suggests you are poorly educated, which gives me precisely zero confidence in any of your assertions or conclusions.

            Prove me wrong. Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources. Surprise me.

          • Sue

            YOu are a sad person.. if you have the intelligence you think you have use it.. don’t try and demean someone else.. this shows me you have a lack of not only moral back bone.. but it is smoking mirrors.. in hope to discredit people who post.. It just make me want to post more.. and honey I don’t mind in the least if you don’t post back.. because you are as far off the subject as it can get…

          • *shrug* Your loss. Your approval or lack thereof matters naught to me.

          • Sue

            Lucky me.. and i care why

          • Proponent

            Feminerd: “Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources.”

            I’d settle for peer-reviewed sources.. do you have any Sue?

            And can you stay on point with your responses to posts?

            … …

            Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen..

          • yugaya

            More like

            Feminerd: “Write something in proper English and then cite it properly with peer-reviewed sources.”

            Sue (projecting):”YOu are a sad person.. if you have the intelligence you think you have use it.. don’t try and demean someone else.. you have a lack of not only moral back bone.. but it is smoking mirrors.. in hope to discredit people who post…. because you are
            as far off the subject as it can get…”

          • Sue

            Ha ha atack atack.. lol

            Doctors speaking of course this will not be good enough for Proponent but hey..it may just give those who question somewhere to start…

            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • yugaya

            You are spamming. Concentrate on one link at a time with summary and please do not post this shit list of links in its entirety again (you can do it).

          • Sue

            Dont want anyone to miss it do we…….

            Good movies to watch fellow poster as well is .

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …
            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

          • Proponent

            Have you done any further research on these people?

          • Who?

            It’s smoke and mirrors, not ‘smoking mirrors’.

            You demean and discredit yourself as you post nonsense.

            Like I said, keep at it. You are doing the pro-vax cause credit and assisting it every time you post.

          • Sue

            You are a bit if a domineering person are you not.. lol.. you are actually so silly you are funny.. and you are one of those people who thinks if they attacking people personally is enough and they may shut up.. and guess what.. I do not value your opinion however i find it funny.. Is this how you control those around you when they do not say and do as you want.. Mmmm I bet…

          • yugaya

            “they are either lairs.. misinformed or quacks.”

            Oh well, at least you diversified a bit, one of your colleagues further down in the comments claimed only luntacis and shills were responding to her here.

            I’ll abuse your lame pile of nonsense to post an OT link on evolution of the meaning of the word “quack”: http://www.igm-bosch.de/content/language1/downloads/EAHMH_4_08ME.pdf

          • Sue

            Are you rally this stupid.. Lol

          • yugaya

            Why do you think I’m really stupid? Is it for finding desperate comfort in a bit of variety in your antivaxx narrative that you keep parroting, or for suggesting an interesting read as a distraction?

      • Proponent

        “I am not sure just what you are referencing in your post.. nor, do I understand it … however.. I believe it is worthy of an downvote”, the anti-vaxxer responded.

    • Chris

      I bet you also wished that no one told me that the government mandates the injecting of infants, children, and pregnant mothers with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, bacterial contaminants, mycoplasma contaminants, and aborted human fetal DNA contaminants, with no proper prior long term human testing of side effects.

      Death, and autoimmune disorders are included in the list of side effects of these vaccines, which is why no one should be coerced into injecting their children with them.

      • Wren

        I can’t speak for Dr Kitty but I sure wish no one had spread such misinformation.

        • Chris

          Every word is true and indisputable. You probably also “wish no one had spread” the true information that those millions of people newly vaccinated with live virus can shed or infect others.

          • Wren

            Misinformation is, by definition, not true and indisputable.

          • Sue

            That is correct.. BIG Pharma Misinforms all the time.. to make bigger prophets for its shareholders……TRUE

          • Who?

            If shareholders were prophets they would all be bazillionaires.

            This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

          • Sue

            Once again an impressive piece of knowledge.. Lol.. and you want to be believed.. Not likely….

          • Who?

            Just keep talking, you are the easiest antivaxxer to beat.

          • Proponent

            Who?.. It’s not a fair fight or challenge, to be fair.

            Think you should be handicapped in some way.. maybe tie your hands behind your back and make you type your posts with your nose?

            … …

            While underwater?

            😉

          • Who?

            I have a very pointy nose, if you have a snorkel and waterproof keyboard I’m totally up for it!

            We should be encouraging Sue, her poorly expressed ranting nearly does the provax job for us by making anti vaxxers look really bad.

          • yugaya

            While she’s at it how about we inquire about her views on childbirth? Such condescending tone of TRUE knowledge holder shouldn’t all be wasted on vaccines.

          • Sue

            Ha ha.. If I am so easy to beat as you stated.. ignore me..

          • Who?

            No, it’s much more fun this way. I have no need to beat you, you are doing that yourself.

            If you really believe this nonsense you are peddling, the best thing you can do to promote it is go quiet, very quiet. Better to be quiet and thought a fool than express yourself and confirm everyone’s opinion.

            But you can’t resist biting back.

          • Sue

            Ha ha.. it is not fun you are having it is trying to chuck personal abuse.. and hoping it will stick like mus.. as you worry about people like me.. if you were not worried you would not bother with me.. but you will post back again i know you will haha

          • Amazed

            Oh honey, Who doesn’t deserve any attention. She’s evil. I can feel your pain. You were abused at school, evil teachers tortured you with them big and small words, tried to hammer spelling into your poor little brain… and now, you’re being abused again for something that’s simply out of your control. Here, take this lovely handkerchief.

          • Who?

            You’re a beautiful soul, Amazed.

          • Amazed

            *blushes*

          • Sue

            Weak people talk like you..sadly I am not saying you a weak but this is the talk of those who did bully at school and miss it so much continue to try and bully anyone they can.. weak …

            those who are reading these post don’t be put of with your journey to ind answers… to find the truth..

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/.

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Poogles

            Honey, if you’re going to argue with a bunch of people who have advanced degrees (which actually doesn’t include me – only a BA here), at least proofread your writing. If this is your “proofread” writing, just give up now, you’re barely literate, let alone scientifically literate.

          • Sue

            Honey everyone is entitled to a say.. and if this is your argument .. you feel that unless you can spell.. or are educated.. not that you know what I am.. cannot
            have a say about their bodies .. and what goes in them. And their opinions. It is a very sad world.. there is definitely in your statement a class distinction.. and you expect to be believed.. Your tactics our not very
            bright??? We are not here to show how well we spell.. and I am not bothered by such utter rubbish..

          • Proponent

            “Today, the spectrum of antivaccinationists ranges from people who are
            simply ignorant about science (or “innumerate” — unable to understand
            and incorporate concepts of risk and probability into science-grounded
            decision making) to a radical fringe element who use deliberate mistruths, intimidation, falsified data, and threats of violence in efforts to prevent the use of vaccines and to silence critics.

            Antivaccinationists tend toward complete mistrust of government and manufacturers, conspiratorial thinking, denialism, low cognitive complexity in thinking patterns, reasoning flaws, and a habit of substituting emotional anecdotes for data.5 Their efforts have had disruptive and costly effects, including damage to individual and community well-being from outbreaks of previously controlled diseases, withdrawal of vaccine manufacturers from the market, compromising of national security (in the case of anthrax and smallpox vaccines), and lost productivity.2”

            (Source: “The Age-Old Struggle against the Antivaccinationists”

            Gregory A. Poland, M.D., and Robert M. Jacobson, M.D.

            N Engl J Med 2011; 364:97-99January 13, 2011DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1010594)

          • Sue

            There you go again personnel attacks.. and trying to say someone who does not agree with what you re saying and believe must have low intelligence.. kettle black… Yes if I named doctors who are highly intelligent you would say what… they are quacks.. but they must be intelligent surely???? Please don’t say you cannot get Youtube sites with below info.. you have the doctors names use that…

            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • Wren

            Actually, no one is claiming those who disagree are of low intelligence. We are all ignorant of some things. It just so happens that most antivaxers are ignorant of probability, risk and the science involved.

            Even highly intelligent people can be wrong. Every person on this earth is subject to cognitive biases and logical fallacies. Anecdotes are very persuasive to most, despite their actual low value in determining truth. The main role of science is to help us overcome the flaws in human thinking to find the truth, or as close to it as we can come.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            You may not be here to show how well you spell, but there is a reason that languages use standardised spelling and grammar. When you misuse a language, it makes it very difficult for other people to understand what you are trying to say. For example, when you stated that you think it is better to help people “not get deceases”, it sounds like you were saying (albeit with poor grammar) that you think it is better if people do not die. But as far as I can guess from the context and from your other posts, you were actually advocating for disease prevention. Because you either do not understand or do not care about the very different meanings of the words “disease” and “decease”, your statement has a completely different meaning (one that’s pretty nonsensical really).

            I’m assuming that the reason that you are posting here is because you want other people to hear your opinion and come round to your way of thinking. But if you cannot clearly communicate in the first place then how can you expect to influence anyone?

            I would also argue that if you cannot use basic grammar, then it would make me question your ability to comprehend the scientific literature involving vaccination.

          • Sue

            Oh goodness me.. if people have typo’s.. haha big deal.. but really it is like a little click.. one started about the spelling and the rest get on the same trip..Honye it dos not faze me one little bit.. but if you really think I am a wast of time.. don’t post to me.. oh but you need to as you are worried about people like me and it is your job to discredit and mislead othrrd from the truth… … so get off subject do all you can to keep me off subject.. oh well will just have to start posting sites atc every time you post back.. that way the people asking question will have places to look.. you are playing a game and I know it.. lol I will post back to you but will not answer you honey…
            1. Dr. Nancy Banks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8

            2. Dr. Russell Blaylock – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs

            3. Dr. Shiv Chopra – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8l2JkUf5g

            4. Dr. Sherri Tenpenny – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2xn9Svp6g

            5. Dr. Suzanne Humphries – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUORtLSg19E

            6. Dr. Larry Palevsky – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44

            7. Dr. Toni Bark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJ1XdA60dQ

            8. Dr. Andrew Wakefield – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Xpl4uYRBc

            9. Dr. Meryl Nass – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oimq1YrDi3w

            10. Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o_AWOx3QU

            11. Dr. Robert Rowen – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtJwNKvHh2Y

            12. Dr. David Ayoub – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnTVD4CR8c&feature=youtu.be

            13. Dr. Boyd Haley PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            14. Dr. Rashid Buttar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQYISvsgq6s

            15. Dr. Roby Mitchell – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r051fXtfng8

            16. Dr. Ken Stoller – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnD8Il2PS9E

            17. Dr. Mayer Eisenstein – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w42NvOJZvXg

            18. Dr. Frank Engley, PhD – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0Qcbx48YM

            19. Dr. David Davis – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfipChRciY

            20. Dr Tetyana Obukhanych – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h66beBrEpk

            21. Dr. Harold E Buttram – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/vaccines-and-brain-inf…/

            22. Dr. Kelly Brogan – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/…/a-shot-never-worth-tak…/

            23. Dr. RC Tent – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDvRSvyz5Y

            24. Dr. Rebecca Carley – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

            25.. Dr. Andrew Moulden – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9bKYm1uCWE

            26 . Dr. Jack Wolfson – http://www.azcentral.com/…/12news-doctor-dont-vac…/22200535/

            27. Dr. Michael Elice – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-michael-elice-m-d-media-prom…/

            28. Dr. Terry Wahls – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kwgkI1RkF0&feature=youtu.be

            29. Dr. Stephanie Seneff – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BF0x354BI

            30. Dr. Paul Thomas – http://vaccineimpact.com/…/dr-paul-thomas-m-d-preserve-med…/

            31. Many doctors talking at once – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhweeOmOn6sSimilar Podcasts You Might Like:

          • Who?

            Don’t stop, you’ll be getting a shill check from Big Pharma soon all the good work you’re doing.

            Are you sure you’re not an undercover provaxxer?

          • Sue

            Changing tactic are you.. you are so funny.. do you have a script in front of you that says what to do
            Step by Step…You are sure going to great lengths to discredit me.. I am honored..

            All you people out there reading these posts.. do your homework.. go to this site..

            http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/doctors-who-testify-to-the-unhealthy-effects-of-vaccination-article/

            and listen to the doctors and their concerns about vaccine damage and watch this documentaries.. it certainly will give you some food for thought…Make your own decisions ton not be fooled by the bully tactics on this site…

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its … traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma got it stronghold http://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought”
            2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern medical profession and how the
            demonize…

            The Truth About Cancer http://thetruthaboutcancer.com… AMAZING

          • Who?

            You discredit and demean yourself with your poor communication skills, your rubbish references and your silly ignorant belligerence.

            The people you quote are lying charlatans who steal from the desperate and gullible, by promising things they can’t deliver and spreading fear.

          • Sue

            Oh Who?.. there must not be much up top.. as you keep repeating yourself.. over and over again.. suggesting I am discrediting and demeaning myself…. come on the truth is you want to try and discredit me for vaccine damage.. Honey irt is BIG PHarma who use fer against poor parents.. and sadly you now it…. You have mentioned that I am not worth talking to but you keep coming back to me time and time again Why?? You don’t faze me.. so keep it up .. it gives me a chance to share more honest information and i thank you for that..

            As follows statments form doctors…

            “My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the United States each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given children. The pertussis vaccine is the most likely villain, but it could also be one or more of the others.” –Dr. Mendelsohn, M.D.

            “Delay of DPT immunisation until 2 years of age in Japan has resulted in a dramatic decline in adverse side effects. In the period of 1970-1974, when DPT vaccination was begun at 3 to 5 months of age, the Japanese national compensation system paid out claims for 57 permanent severe damage vaccine cases, and 37 deaths. During the ensuing six year period 1975-1980, when DPT injections were delayed to 24 months of age, severe reactions from the vaccine were reduced to a total of eight with three deaths. This represents an 85 to 90 percent reduction in severe cases of damage and death.” –Raymond Obomsawin, M.D.

            “This report describes six mothers who received live virus vaccines and one who received a Hepatitis B vaccine during pregnancy after having received an MMR booster five months prior to conception. All the children who resulted from these pregnancies have had developmental problems, six out seven (85%) were diagnosed with autism, and the seventh seems to exhibit symptoms often associated with autistic spectrum disorders.” –F. EdwardYazbak, MD

            “Every day new parents are ringing us. They all have the same tragic story. Healthy baby, child, teenager, usually a boy, given the DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus) or DT (diphtheria and tetanus), MMR or MMR booster followed by a sudden fall or slow, but steady decline into autism or other spectrums disorder.”–The Hope Project (Ireland)

            “There is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases. To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects.” — Dr. Viera Scheibner

            “The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are changing our genetic code through vaccination.” –Guylaine Lanctot M.D.

            Dr. Michael Odent has written a letter in the JAMA (1994) where his figures show a five times higher rate of asthma in pertussis immunised children compared to non-immunised children. He is also quoted in the International Vaccination Newsletter (Sept. 1994): “Immunised children have more ear infections and spend more days in hospital.”

            In the May 24, 1996, New Zealand Medical Journal, J. Barthelow Classen, MD, a former researcher at the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the founder and CEO of Classen Immunotherapies in Baltimore, reported that juvenile diabetes increased 60 per cent following a massive hepatitis B vaccination campaign for babies six weeks or older in New Zealand from 1988 to 1991. In the October 22, 1997, Infectious Diseases in Clinical Practice, Classen showed that Finland’s incidence of diabetes increased 147 per cent in children under five after three new vaccines were introduced in the 1970s, and that diabetes increased 40 per cent in children aged 5 to 9 after the addition of the MMR and Hib vaccines in the 1980s. He concluded that “the rise in IDDM [juvenile onset diabetes] in the different age groups correlated with the number of vaccines given.”

            http://www.vaclib.org/basic/quotes.htm

          • Nick Sanders
          • Bugsy

            Yep. Up here in Vancouver, we’ve already had two of these types of outbreaks in the past few months…in each case, it’s been passengers coming in on flights from China who were contagious at the time of flight.

          • Proponent

            “.. because I said so”, Sue.

            Well.. that certainly settles the matter..

          • Sue

            In you mind my dear it does in your mind.. Lol

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Yes, I wish people would not spread dangerous medical misinformation that kills people. Does that make me somehow evil in your mind?

      • Nick Sanders

        Yes, we do indeed wish no one had filled your head with lies.

        • Sue

          Lies you say.. 1 case of measles diagnosed to 7000 cases of autism.. Who is lying??????

          • Who?

            You may believe what you are saying-and so not be lying-but what you say is incorrect.

          • Sue

            Why because you say it is…. OMG and we are suppose to trust your word….

          • Proponent

            Sue:

            Comments 586
            454 Upvotes

            I don’t think you are doing this right..

          • yugaya

            Or she is in a wrong place.

          • Sue

            Oh this is a competition is it..(I thpught it was about caring for our babies and children and the vaccine damaged..) those paid by BIG Pharma of course will get vote of up votes.. also paid by BIG Pharma honey

          • Nick Sanders

            Do you know why there are so few cases of measles?

          • Sue

            Do you???? Quite honestly that bull has had its day.. and the consequences of vaccines are the very reason there is so many more cancers..(Childhood Cancer has sky rocketed.. WHY??) air infections diabetes.. etc etc neurological disorders.. and are you telling me that the epidemic of autism is not a concern???? BIG Pharma is making billions and our children are getting sicker.. cradle to the grave.. that is what BIG Pharma wants.. money money money….

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sue

            Really .. you put a chart on there and that is your argument.. OMG and you are going on that.. blow any other consequences through vaccination.. and as i am sure you are well aware of there is a multitude of charts.. but of course your one is true.. lol

          • Nick Sanders

            The data in the chart is from the CDC:

            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035381.htm
            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5653a1.htm

            If you wish to dispute it, take it up with them.

          • Sue

            Oh you are kidding me arn’t you CDC BIG Pharmas bestie.. come on Nicky you can o better than that…

          • Proponent

            Obvious troll is now.. more obvious.

          • Sue

            OH and what is the meaning of TROLL to you.. people who ask questions people who do not agree with you… You are a joke .. it is such a sad thing that to disagree with people that are so into vaccines is to be called names… personally attacks.. sad and you call yourself Proponent.. what is Proponent about you honey??? If you want to call be a TROLL do so.. .. if you want to throw mud do so.. you could not do anything to me and make me vulnerable.. I have had a reasonable tough life.. and I say reasonable.. as there is a lot of people really suffering out there.. but having a vaccine injured child has been hard.. it has taken it tole on my family and myself.. but you go ahead my dear and chuck your sad abuse.. and this is what people like you do.. Sad…If I can get one persons interest up to do their own homework I will be happy .. so go for it

          • Sue

            Do You?? And do you know why there is a epidemic of autism….now???? And why childhood cancer has skyrocketed.. NO.. as long as BIG Pharma make its money you seem happy…..

            Hygiene and Better Nutrition is Responsible for the
            Reduction in Disease Rates….. that is a given…

            Continuing measles outbreaks signal increasing incidence comparable with the prevaccine era. In the meantime, outbreaks of measles in vaccinated children have continued and intensified to this day. Contemporary observations of the ineffectiveness of vaccination indicate that the incidence of measles has increased and has not continued decreasing as it did for some 100 years before any type of measles vaccination was introduced. Conrad et al. (1971) published about the dynamics of measles in the US in the last four years and conceded that measles was on the increase and that “eradication, if possible,
            now seems far in the future”. Barratta et al. (1970) investigated an outbreak in Florida from December 1968 to February 1969 and found little difference in the incidence of measles in vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Right through the 1980s, measles outbreaks in fully vaccinated children have continued all over the US and all other countries with high vaccination rates all over the world. Robertson et al. (1992) wrote that in 1985 and 1986. 152 measles outbreaks in US school-age children occurred among persons who had previously
            received measles vaccine. “Every 2-3 years, there is an upsurge of measles irrespective of vaccination compliance”. To cap it all: the largely unvaccinated Amish (they claim religious exemption) had not reported a single case of measles between 1970 and December 1987, for 18 years (Sutter et al. 1991). It is quite likely that a similar situation would have applied to outside communities without any vaccination and that measles vaccination had actually kept measles alive and kicking. According to Hedrich (1933), there is a variety of dynamics of measles occurrence, from 2-3 years to up to 18 years, as later also witnessed by the unvaccinated Amish. – See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/outbreaks-of-measles-in-vaccinated-children-intensifying/#sthash.qtpd4JQ3.dpuf

          • Nick Sanders

            You already replied to the comment once.

            Your “source” only quotes decades old studies, all but one of which were published before the second dose was added to the schedule, and the one that was published afterwards only looked at the time before.

      • Who?

        What government mandates injecting anything into anyone?

        • yugaya

          My government does mandate childhood vaccinations. We have 12 million tourists a year which is more than our population, and most of these come from places where people “do their research” into vaccines, so the risks of VPDs are quite real.

    • Sue

      There is also thousand upon thousands of more people diagnosed with diseases.. which then also makes them a cash cow for BIG Pharma.. I would say it is better to try and help people not get deceases.. To educate on way to not get diabetes.. any good doctor would be promote health and how to stay healthy .. Yes diabetics may well need mediation/insulin.. but have you ever talked to them about healthy living.. good food.. foods that help.. or just written another script….

      • Who?

        Once they get deceases only the undertakers make money out of them-well, their estates.

        Lost the will to read or care after that clanger, but thanks for participating.

        • Sue

          Oh and BIG Pharma does not prophet from sick people.. Undertakers.. that is your argument.. Sad really sad.. A person can only die once..and i would like to see our babies/children people have a healthy life.. not rely on BIG Pharma to medicate and put toxic chemical into us for prophets…. But BIG Pharma can certainly make a lot of money our of disease.. ever you can not possible argue that point….

          • Nick Sanders
          • Poogles

            “Oh and BIG Pharma does not prophet from sick people”

            First, “profit”, not “prophet”. Second, are you serious? Do you not have any idea what hospitalization and intensive care cost in the US?? Big Pharma would make much, much more money on treating people who catch pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, polio, etc., than on giving them vaccines (which make very, very little PROFIT for the companies who produce them, and even less for the doctors who administer them) to prevent those illnesses in the first place.

          • Sue

            HONEY they do.. all the diseases vaccines cause..

          • Proponent

            I don’t know if it is a good idea to ask you the following question.. however.. throwing caution to the wind..

            Do you think/feel/believe.. that autism is a disease?

          • Sue

            Well I will throw caution to the wind and reply…. In most cases I believe it is a damaged person from vaccines..and I do not believe it is a disease…..

          • Proponent

            Sue: “..and I do not believe it is a disease…..”

            Ok.. good. At least that part of the equation has been established.

            Coming back full circle..

            How does ‘Big Pharma’ make money off of treating autistics, then?

          • Bugsy

            “Prophet” must have been a Freudian slip. Could be my pregnancy brain at work, but it’s making me laugh. 🙂

          • Who?

            You’re a sweetie, it’s ‘profit from’ or be a prophet, that is see the future.

            Lost interest again.

      • Roadstergal

        You do know that Type 1 diabetes is a genetic autoimmune disease?

        And I really never believe alt-med shills when they say docs don’t talk to patients about preventive medicine and nutrition. My docs always talk to me about nutrition and preventive medicine (including vaccines).

      • Poogles

        “I would say it is better to try and help people not get deceases[sic]… ”

        Oh my gawd, I have such great news for you – there are these things called “vaccines” that allow our immune systems to build up resistance to diseases we’ve never even had, so that we have an “army” at the ready if we should ever actually encounter the disease (which, hopefully, thanks to herd immunity, doesn’t even happen). This gives us a HUGE advantage when encountering a disease in the wild for the first time – our immune system knows exactly what to look for and how to take it down (like a mugshot of a criminal, but even better) – meaning we either never even get sick (because our “informed” immune system has found and destroyed the “invaders” before they can even have an effect) or we only get a little sick. Science is awesome, don’t you think? 😀

        • Sue

          I have had the childhood sickness/disease etc.. and measles was one.. and I now have a life time immunity.. and have given my children healthy antibodies though breast feeding etc.. I also once believed without question.. and paid a very high price so don’t tell me this rubbish about vaccine.. we once thought antibiotics was the miracle of miracle.. and yes it saved a lot of lives.. but at what price…. look at the super bugs now..Mother Nature is a wonderful thing.. and yes he can be cruel as well.. but Humans beings are not getting stronger.. we are getting sicker .. 2015 and we still use things like Chemo and Radiation.. get real….You may think that you are right.. but the future will prove the devastation that is happening right now. and the proof is there .. look at the epidemic of autism.. come on…that is just one of the many many skyrocketing childrens illness/disabilities..I suppose you love GMO as well

          • Nick Sanders

            You get lifetime immunity from a vaccine, while skipping the risks of things like pneumonia and encephalopathy. And vaccines do not lead to superbugs.

          • Sue

            Well Nicky you sure do not know your stuff.. firstly it has been proven vaccines do not give a life
            time immunity that is why they give booster shots.. and they do not work… secondly your rubbish on pneumonia and encephalitic is not a common occurrence. But Autism is a common occurrence. plus all the debilitating deceases caused through vaccines and thirdly.. I never said vaccines lead to super-bugs.. I was talking about the over use of antibiotics.. BUT GIVE IT TIME..

            Also life time immunity comes from getting the disease.. and not vaccines..

          • Proponent

            Back that stuff up.. you can do it, Sue!

            … …

            Maybe?

            … …

            Most likely.. no.

            Moving towards.. improbable.. and.. impossible.

            Unless.. we move into another dimension of time and space..

          • yugaya

            Now I’m tempted to make an analogy with Dante’s Inferno and classify all the vaccine-related crazies into nine circles of antivaxx hell for future reference and better understanding of their universe.

            I’m also tempted to file a VAERS report because reading Sue’s ramblings is definitely causing a “vaccine-related injury” at this point.

          • Proponent

            And.. it would probably be accepted by VAERS..

            “How vaccine litigation distorts the VAERS database”

            “Unfortunately, the VAERS database is highly unreliable. The reason is
            that anyone can submit a report to it, and no one actually verifies the
            accuracy of the report. Indeed, James Laidler once tested the system by
            submitting a report that the influenza virus had turned him into The Incredible Hulk.

            The report was accepted and duly entered into the database. This report was so out of the ordinary that a representative actually contacted him and, amazingly, asked his permission to remove the report from the database (proving that it’s not easy being green). If Laidler had not given it, the report of an adverse reaction in which the flu vaccine turned a man into a huge, immensely powerful green monster would still be in VAERS.”

            (Source: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/18/how-vaccine-litigation-distorts-the-vaer/ )

          • Sue

            He we go again Proponent.. another silly silly attack.. “another dimension of time and space..” what utter rubbish..Are you protecting Nicky.. how nice.. and he backs so much up with truth … Lol

          • Proponent

            Stay on point.. post some verifiable and creditable sources..

          • Katia

            Many vaccines give life-long immunity, some few (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) require boosters.

          • Sue

            Measles deaths were virtually nonexistent prior to introduction of vaccine, which is now triggering outbreaks
            Some will try to argue that measles deaths are essentially nonexistent now because of measles vaccines, the first of which was introduced in 1963. But this argument holds no water — U.S. measles mortality data shows that deaths from measles rapidly declined in the years leading up to when the first vaccine was introduced, validating the success of improved sanitation and better nutrition in making measles a non-problem.

            Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/048518_measles_vaccines_CDC_data.html#ixzz3Z5I2mNGb

          • Katia

            Oh, c’mon Sue, that’s nutty even for you! There were 400-500 deaths a year in the US alone in the pre-vaccine days, right up until the vaccine became available.

          • Sue

            400 to 500 you say… and yet you do not even mention the vaccine damage or the deaths caused through vaccinated the injuries… are these deaths n not worth a mention….400 to 500 you say.. what is it 400 or 500??

          • Proponent

            Stay on point.. stop evading and/or deflecting and/or..

          • Katia

            It varied slightly from year to year, as measles was a bit cyclical. In the 60s, the population of the US was about half what it is now, as well.

            Please post a link to a CREDIBLE source for even ONE death due to measles vaccine.

          • Proponent

            Natural News is crap.. period.

            Cite something else.

          • fiftyfifty1

            ” we once thought antibiotics was the miracle of miracle.. and yes it saved a lot of lives.. but at what price…. look at the super bugs now”

            According to your logic, this shouldn’t be a problem. You can just go back to the good ol’ days and treat any bacterial infection that you happen to get with good nutrition. You should be fine, no?

            Yes, some bacteria have evolved antibiotic resistance. But even the ones that have developed resistance to multiple antibiotics are no more dangerous than plain old bacteria were before the invention of antibiotics. They are not “super bugs”.

            You follow good nutrition practices, no? What have you got to fear? Let your immune system do what it was made to do!

          • Who?

            I wonder if the evils of Big Pharma would be enough to stop those with these views coming for treatment if they thought it was needed? Like those who believe birth is inherently safe, especially with yoga, positive thinking and an expensive midwife nearby, surely the well nourished would spurn medical care?

            Or, will they wilt and allow the dastardly drugs that work to actually work for them? And if they do, are they re-thinking their views, or back to the same old story?

      • Dr Kitty

        Here’s how it goes Sue, just how you know.
        We talk about healthy diet and lifestyle at each visit. If someone has a slightly elevated HBA1C or lipid profile I will advise they increase their activity, decrease their dietary fat and sugar intake, quit smoking and reduce alcohol. Then I suggest we check the levels again in 3-6months. I offer input from a dietician, a free 12 week exercise scheme, appointments with a smoking cessation advisor, commercial weight loss programmes and Addiction services if alcohol is a issue.

        THEN AND ONLY THEN, if they have either tried and failed to implement necessary changes, or if the suggested changes haven’t altered their readings enough for us to be comfortable (and it is “us”- I don’t ultimately decide whether to take medication) I may suggest medication.

        Of course that doesn’t happen with the T1DM patients.
        They get the insulin straight away, because dying from DKA while you tinker with your diet is not a good treatment plan.

        The truth is that diseases are multi factorial, and diet and lifestyle changes will only help some people, and only so much.

        I can also hand out healthy eating leaflets and nicotine gum all day long, and my patients may still choose to chain smoke while drinking margaritas and eating ice cream, which is their right.

        You may live in a world where one conversation with a doctor will lead to dramatic and permanent lifestyle changes. I live in the real one, where it doesn’t.

        • Sue

          I don’t disagree with you at all.. But the changes and mind set need to be started much younger.. at school.. at home… Why do we not teach children about food.. really teach them.. why do we not teach them about choices.. planting and growing their own food.organic. The dangers of GMO the list goes on.. why do we not expect the fast food places to have more responsibility…. why do we allow such preservatives in our foods.. why are you not speaking our about this… we are what we eat….

          • Wren

            I am in the UK, so my children likely get a different education to yours. They are taught about food choices, both at school and home. Their school even has a garden in which food is grown and the children learn, from time to time, how to prepare common foods.

            They are not taught about unproven benefits of organic food or unproven harms of GMO, specifically because those are unproven.

            How this relates to vaccine refusal is a mystery though, as the two are not the same thing.

          • Who?

            Confusing, isn’t it?

            And if you are anti-gmo and anti roundup you had better be ready to live on the insects that eat crops. Which might be fine as far as protein goes but might leave a bit to be desired in other areas.

            And, while I’m at it, that’s lovely but why should schools be doing it? Kids eat mostly at home, surely?

          • Sue

            Firstly I was answering a post to someone else.. secondly really UK teaches all that lucky you.. …. And I have know doubt you would not know nor understand the benefits of organic food.. that about sums it up.. Lol

          • Fallow

            Define “organic”. Give a coherent, thorough, precise definition of what you mean by that word. If you think that’s asking too much, you aren’t fit to discuss these issues at all.

          • Sue

            I will give you my view.. and will not be baited by your behavior.. and way you post .. however I am thinking that you may have more than one name …. are you bright enough to understand that statement ….
            Organic is how farmers grow and process agricultural products, their farming practices are intended to
            encourage soil and water conservation and reduce pollution. No pesticides.. Better for the environment. No pesticides means healthier soil, water, and wildlife.. However you perception on organic in your part of the world may well be different to mine…

          • Proponent

            In your part of the world.. what does the following mean to you?

            Despite the consolidated structure of the organics sector, it remains largely independent from specific Government support and regulation. Organic certification standards are not food safety standards. Organic agricultural production and food is subject to the same regulatory and legislative requirements as apply to other forms of agricultural production.”

            (Source: New Zealand Food Safety Authority | “NZFSA Policy on Organic Food: A Background Paper” – October 2008

            There may be more current papers.. feel free to cite them and/or if you’ve found any others)

          • Sue

            So you are at the belief if the government is not involved you are not interested..Oh and by the way i do not now live in New Zealand..

            Complying with the Fair Trading Act 1986

            Marketing products as organic

            If your product is organic, you may say this on the label. In New Zealand, marketing claims and use of the term ‘organic’ on food labels is controlled through the Fair Trading Act 1986. This means that:

            representations about food must be truthful, accurate and must not mislead a consumer

            you must be able to be demonstrate that products labelled as ‘organic’ are produced organically

            if you claim that your products are ‘certified organic’, you must be able to back to this claim up with a certificate.

            Usage of the term ‘organic’ under the Fair Trading Act 1986 is enforced by the Commerce Commission.

          • Proponent

            Sue: “Oh and by the way i do not now live in New Zealand..”

            Ok.. but.. you have still not addressed the question posed.. stop.. evading and/or deflecting.

            What does the following mean to you?

            “Despite the consolidated structure of the organics sector, it remains largely independent from specific Government support and regulation. Organic certification standards are not food safety standards. Organic agricultural production and food is subject to the same regulatory and legislative requirements as apply to other forms of agricultural production.”

            (p.s. Sue: “So you are at the belief if the government is not involved you are not interested..”

            The government is already involved.. for one, you just cited a New Zealand piece of legislation – Fair Trading Act 1986.)

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    BTW, there’s no autism epidemic. The incidence of the autistic phenotype is stable. The incidence of the diagnosis is increasing with heightened clinical awareness.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25922345

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19737795

    Vaccinations didn’t cause the “autism epidemic” because there is no such thing. It’s imaginary.

    • ciaparker2

      Yeah, that’s what the vaccine companies would have people believe. In reality, the numbers of autistic kids have exploded a hundred-fold in the US in the last thirty years.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Nope. The diagnosis has expanded vastly but the number of people with the condition has not changed. Nor do the authors of either of the articles have any connection to pharma. They’re epidemiologists. Pharma isn’t even interested in them. I know you’d like to believe that it’s all a pharma conspiracy, but it’s not.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Actually, on thinking about it, my last reply may have been unfair. A better reply would have been: What’s your evidence that there is a true increase in autism in the US in the past 30 years?

        • ciaparker2

          Read the above-linked article and you’ll see.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I don’t read articles by groups that want to kill me. Sorry. Find a reference from someone who is not advocating eugenics and I’ll be happy to look at it.

          • ciaparker2

            Nowhere in the article is eugenics even suggested, although I regret its absence in your case. This site is one of the nastiest I’ve ever seen.

          • Nick Sanders

            You are a horrible person.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            She really is. I just don’t understand people who constantly lie to try to prove their point.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, it’s not telling the truth would help her.

          • Box of Salt

            ciapraker2 “This site is one of the nastiest I’ve ever seen.”

            Then why are you continuing to post here?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Thank you for making your position clear.

          • Fallow

            You wouldn’t have posted here a hundred times if you didn’t live for this shit.

            Also, cool move suggesting that eugenics is the proper solution for people for folks on the autism spectrum who disagree with you.

          • momofone

            Yet you’re still here.

            And beyond reprehensible.

          • Chris

            The organizations pushing vaccination are the one advocating eugenics. The WHO has vaccinated millions of girls and women in Mexico, Nicaragua, and Kenya with vaccines laced with HCG, a sterilization drug that makes women’s bodies attack and kill their fetuses.

            https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a-mass-sterilization-exercise-kenyan-doctors-find-anti-fertility-agent-in-u

          • Dr Kitty

            HCG- you mean Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin?
            The hormone produced by the ovary and then by the placenta in order to sustain a pregnancy, not end it?
            The one which is measured by pregnancy tests?
            The one which falls if a pregnancy is non viable?
            The one with a very short half life (levels return to non-pregnancy values within days of a miscarriage) ?

            Yeah…I wouldn’t believe everything you read on the Internet.

          • Wren

            But if you inject it with a vaccine it does totally different stuff, don’t you know?

          • Wren

            In reality, I happen to know quite a few women who have injected HCG as a part of getting pregnant. It hasn’t caused miscarriages or prevented further pregnancies either. I spent years on a site for women with PCOS, and it’s not at all unusual in fertility treatment.

          • Bugsy

            Yep – I used HCG as my trigger shot for my first IVF cycle, and used a smaller dose of HCG following the trigger shot for IVF cycle #2. The side effects mentioned above are interesting – yes, HCG does play into OHSS. However, it’s so ridiculously specific when it happens…even with a hyperstimmed cycle for IVF #2, the docs still chose to use HCG w/ me. (Never developed OHSS, for what it’s worth.)

          • Wren

            My sister did develop OHSS, but also got her baby out of the whole thing. She says it was worth it.

            Natural HCG apparently makes me puke for 9 months, but is still worth it.

          • Bugsy

            Hugs…9 months of morning sickness wouldn’t be fun. I’ve just gotten through 3 months of non-stop queasiness (no vomiting), and am about 99.999% certain I’ll never be willing to do it again.

          • Wren

            Thanks. It was not fun, but my kids were actually worth it, most days.

            The first time I had no idea it would happen. The second, well, I’m clearly a glutton for punishment. It probably does play a role in why there is no third though.

          • Bugsy

            I had a side effect from HCG that we can’t discount…my 2-year-old son. They’d better add him to the list of possible side effects!

          • Nick Sanders

            It causes two year olds? Damn, they should be putting that at the top of the label in bright red letters.

          • Roadstergal

            Black box.

          • Chris

            Here is a quote from the article about this tetanus vaccine that was only given to 2.3 million Kenyan girls and women from 15 to 45 years of age (Can’t men get tetanus too?), and was given in five doses, when the usual is three doses:

            “doctors warn that injecting women with HCG , which mimics a natural hormone produced by pregnant women, causes them to develop antibodies against it. When they do get pregnant, and produce their own version of HCG, it triggers the production of antibodies that cause a miscarriage.”

            To my knowledge, the HCG in the vaccines is synthetic and genetically engineered, so it may not be identical to the HCG produced by the body and may have different effects.

            Known Side Effects of Real H.C.G.:
            Ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS)
            Birth deformities, if taken during pregnancy
            Early puberty
            Prostate cancer
            Severe pelvic pain
            Swelling of the hands and legs
            Stomach pain and swelling
            Shortness of breathWeight gain
            Diarrhea
            Nausea and vomiting
            Headaches
            Depression
            Breast tenderness and swelling
            Edema
            Reduced penis size
            Overuse of synthetic HCG has been known to shrink testicles.
            The WHO denied the HCG was in the vaccine at all, and then when independent test results (not financed by Big Pharma or Government) were presented to them, they finally shifted from denial to claiming the batch tested was contaminated or tainted accidentally.
            In any case, was it okay to inject these 2.3 million brown women with ingredients they were not informed was in the vaccine?

          • Cobalt

            What a load of unsubstantiated crap. Find a credible source, with actual science to back up the findings. You’re quoting bullshit.

          • Chris

            Since you only trust your god, the government, and/or one of it’s many alphabet demigods like the WHO as a credible source. Here is a government source.
            “The WHO Task Force on Vaccines for Fertility Regulation. Its formation, objectives and research activities.
            Abstract…

            Over the past 18 years, the WHO Task Force on Vaccines for Fertility Regulation has been supporting basic and clinical research on the development of birth control vaccines directed against the gametes or the preimplantation embryo. These studies have involved the use of advanced procedures in peptide chemistry, hybridoma technology and molecular genetics as well as the evaluation of a number of novel approaches in general vaccinology. As a result of this international, collaborative effort, a prototype anti-HCG vaccine is now undergoing clinical testing, raising the prospect that a totally new family planning method may be available before the end of the current decade”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1874951

          • Wren

            And?

          • yugaya

            Great news! Imagine a vaccine instead of all the condoms, pills, IUDs and sterilization procedures! Imagine the empowerment of women, the most deprived population globally btw, if they were able to control their lives more efficiently and get rid of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies for long period of time/permanently by just getting a shot! Awesome!!!

          • Cobalt

            DepoProvera is already available, I imagine a longer action time would be welcome for many users!

          • Wren

            Depo Provera is definitely not awesome for all women. A vaccine, if reversible, would have beat the pants off any hormonal contraceptive for me.

          • Cobalt

            I didn’t like it, but I know women who did, and who would love a longer acting shot. Getting the long term protection of an IUD or even a tubal (depends on what a particular woman’s plans are), but without the concerns of carrying a foreign body (removal being an issue in resource poor environments), would be a major benefit for a lot of women. If it works without creating the potential unwanted side effects of hormone treatments, even better!

          • Wren

            I definitely agree with that.

          • Wren

            You do realise that the majority of those side effects are also symptoms of pregnancy, right?

            And you realise your long list does NOT include sterilisation or future miscarriages, right? Wasn’t that your original claim?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I have had ALL of those side effects some months ago!!!!! The government must have been injecting me with it!!!!!! The shrinking in penis size was the worst!!!!!!

            Oh, wait, I was pregnant. And I do not have a penis. Damm it! Now I can not claim compensation!

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            In Kenya they have a serious problem with neonatal tetanus. If you give the vaccine to women of child bearing age or pregnant mothers they can give passive immunity to their fetus which prevents this condition. It helps to know a little bit about the subject you want to discuss.

          • The Computer Ate

            Nice try, but your co-religionist admitted that she advocated euthanasia for people with autism. Especially if they disagree with her. Age of Autism has a “better dead than autistic” policy, overtly. The “no, you” defense won’t work here.

          • VikingRN

            Our Friend Cia claims to have MS in another one of her rants over at Info Wars. I had to leave that discussiojn I was at risk for a brain bleed…..

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Do not worry, BarkingBN, the substance that was supposed to bleed is not there.

          • The Computer Ate

            And seriously why are you still posting on this 6 year old post and not moving to either the post you were explicitly invited to or the current one which is all about vaccination and privilege and is therefore highly relevant to this discussion. Why stay here?

          • Wren

            Personally I’m a fan of the theory Chris is an antivax shill, and only gets paid for comments on this particular post.

          • Chris

            Who’s a conspiracy theorist now. Ha Ha.

          • Wren

            Still you Chris.

          • Cobalt

            HCG causes miscarriages like H2O causes dehydration.

            You’re an idiot.

          • Chris

            Don’t forget the other known side effects of the HCG that was injected into these 2.3 million women without their knowledge or consent:

            Ovarian Hyper Stimulation Syndrome (OHSS)
            Birth deformities, if taken during pregnancy
            Early puberty
            Prostate cancer
            Severe pelvic pain
            Swelling of the hands and legs
            Stomach pain and swelling
            Shortness of breathWeight gain
            Diarrhea
            Nausea and vomiting
            Headaches
            Depression
            Breast tenderness and swelling
            Edema
            Reduced penis size

            Have you been taking HCG? That might explain that last side effect. Ha Ha.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            And how many women are going to get prostate cancer or reduced penis size from HCG? Ok, so a few transwomen are at risk, but they probably won’t be taking HCG anyway.

          • Daleth

            HCG is the pregnancy hormone, Chris–the naturally occurring hormone that always, again naturally, rises during pregnancy. It’s the hormone that pregnancy tests look for; if it’s above a certain level, you are pregnant. (Notice how virtually all of the HCG side effects you mention are symptoms of pregnancy?).

            To suggest that injecting it into a pregnant woman could cause birth deformities is ridiculous. And as Nym mentioned, the shots being developed to prevent pregnancy target HCG; they do not contain HCG.

          • Chris

            How do the vaccines target HCG? The most likely method is to get the body to produce antibodies that attack HCG. They vaccinate you with attenuated measles and other viruses to get your body to produce antibodies to those viruses, so why is it so hard for you to believe that they may inject you with some form of HCG to get your body to produce antibodies to HCG, to regulate fertility.

          • Wren

            Please explain, with references where possible, why hCG injected for fertility treatment purposes, in far higher doses than contamination of a vaccine, do not produce these same fertility destroying effects you are claiming for these vaccines?

          • Chris

            What is the Anti-Fertility ‘Vaccine’ ?

            Also termed “immunological contraceptive” the anti-fertility “vaccine” is a completely new mode of birth control. But unlike vaccines against diseases, which prepare the body to react against harmful germs, this “vaccine” acts against natural physiological substances. It actually reprograms the body’s self protection to attack substances that are natural to human physiology.

            This “vaccine” works by vaccinating against the female pregnancy hormone HCG (human chorionic gonadotrophin) which is produced by the fertilized egg just after conception. The “vaccine” contains a molecule in which HCG is linked to a diphtheria or tetanus carrier. When a pregnancy occurs and begins producing HCG, this molecule triggers an immune reaction against it, just as it would against diphtheria or tetanus. The body is tricked into attacking HCG and the fertilized egg.

            This is what millions of brown skin women of child bearing age in Mexico, Nicaragua, Philippines, and Kenya may have been vaccinated with without their knowledge or consent.

          • Wren

            Did they find hCG linked to a tetanus carrier in sufficient volume to actually create a fertility vaccine? Or did they find a small amount of hCG?

            Did they test to be sure the molecule found was acutally hCG or assume that it was based on an initial test?

            Did they run controls to be sure that there was no laboratory contaminiation?

            Do you actually have access to the independent lab reports or simply a biased article making claims?

            Where was this work published?

          • Katia

            Here’s a brief explanation, with references.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunocontraception

            Here’s another one, from 1995: http://www.fwhc.org/health/vaccine.htm
            This stuff never really took off, and is not the vaccine being used on these women.

          • Wren

            But those are references for actual attempted fertility vaccines, not contaminated (not that they have been proven to be) tetanus vaccines.

          • Katia

            Which you claimed didn’t exist!

            “Please explain, with references where possible, why hCG injected for
            fertility treatment purposes, in far higher doses than contamination of a
            vaccine, do not produce these same fertility destroying effects you are
            claiming for these vaccines?”

            In point of fact, injecting HCG DOES impair fertility. However, these vaccines never got off the ground, so to speak.

          • Wren

            Well, those vaccines do not currently exist, in that they never got off the ground.

            Those vaccines, at the point they were trialed, involved a portion of the hcg molecule linked to tetanus (or diptheria I believe) antigens to create even a minimal antibody response to hcg. It was not just put a tiny amount of hcg into an existing tetanus vaccine. As usual, the dose and the form of the molecule both matter.

            When they were trialed, they did not create a state of permanent sterility, as claimed, but a short time, as in months.

            Injecting hCG does not, as originally claimed here, create a state of infertility, short or long term. In fact, it is used to do preceisely the opposite.

          • Katia

            The vaccines didn’t work well, but you’re wrong that injecting HCG does not create a state of infertility. Good grief, I’ve posted several links about these vaccines, including one from 1991 that said the vaccines looked “promising”. Here’s one from 1997:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9083611 I am substantially in agreement with you. I’m certainly not saying these accusations are true, good grief, I’ve argued against them before when Chris brought this stuff up.

          • Wren

            No, injecting HCG does not create infertility. If it did, my nephew and countless other children I know would not exist.

            Injecting it linked with another antigen is a different thing, and still does not create the state of permanent infertility Chris has claimed.

          • Katia

            PLEASE read the links I’ve posted.

            WHY are you arguing about this? I know that! Most of the pro-vaxers know that! However, it is true that HCG preparations have been used for contraception. If you deny that, the anti-vaxers use it against you!

          • Wren

            Perhaps you have not run into the women dealing with infertility who have misunderstood the science in the same way Chris clearly has, the ones who are angry and upset that their doctor would even suggest HCG injections when it will obviously leave them even worse off than they are already, or so they believe.

            I am sorry that anti vaxers can’t grasp the science, but leaving the idea that HCG injections cause permanent sterility or future miscarriages is not something I am comfortable doing.

          • Katia

            Perhaps you ASS*ume too much. I had my own issues with infertility. This is not an infertility board.

            I still don’t get you. I’m certainly not arguing against you, although you seem to think I am.

            The fact remains that a contraceptive using HCG with tetanus toxoid as a carrier has been tested. If a woman has questions because her doctor wants her to have an HCG shot for infertility and she read about this contraceptive on this forum, she can cask him/her, and the reply will be “that’s a totally different preparation”.

            No one is getting infertility information on this freaking board!

          • Wren

            You are not arguing with me? Nice claim, but you most certainly are.

            Your own fertility treatment means little in whether other women have had these concerns. My own means little either. Neither of us are these other women.

            I have never denied that HCG linked with tetanus (and other) carriers has been trailed as a fertility vaccine. However, HCG on its own or simply contaminating tetanus vaccines in very small amounts is not at all the same thing as that. Dose still matters.

            This is not an infertility board, but that doesn’t mean false science such as “injecting HCG causes sterility and future miscarriages” should be allowed to stand unchallenged. Plenty of women of childbearing age, many of whom may well need fertility treatment, read these comments.

          • Katia

            This is so frustrating. First, your infertility experiences were important. Now, neither yours nor mine nor anyone else’s are.

            I said the same things as you, posted links to back them up, a day ago. You’re the one who wants to carry on with this conversation. If the pro-vaxers say there’s no such contraceptive vaccine that uses HCG, that’s untrue. I was trying, futilely so it appears, to explain that. Do you know people use HCG for weight loss (though illegal for that purpose I know someone who used it for that just a year or so ago), and other things?

          • Wren

            To be clear, I have never claimed attempts at an HCG vaccine have not been made.

            “These vaccines” are the supposedly HCG contaminated, at very low levels of contamination, tetanus vaccines. They have since been shown to have not been contaminated with HCG, but even when HCG content was believed to be in them, it was at levels far too low to produce any infertility effects or miscarriages. Permanent infertility and future miscarriages were Chris’ claims I wanted to see proven.

          • Katia

            Which is what I said way earlier in the thread. YOU are the one who came along and started this hijack.

            I don’t think you understand what was being discussed. Chris can’t prove his claims b/c they’re bogus, which some of us had been saying all along. The Catholic bishops obviously confused what they knew about this contraceptive vaccine and the tetanus shot. Chris didn’t understand the difference either.

          • Chris

            “the shots being developed to prevent pregnancy target HCG; they do not contain HCG”

            Wrong again. Anti-HCG vaccines contain HCG as a component. Here is an explanation of how it works.

            What is the Anti-Fertility ‘Vaccine’ ?

            Also termed “immunological contraceptive” the anti-fertility “vaccine” is a completely new mode of birth control. But unlike vaccines against diseases, which prepare the body to react against harmful germs, this “vaccine” acts against natural physiological substances. It actually reprograms the body’s self protection to attack substances that are natural to human physiology.

            This “vaccine” works by vaccinating against the female pregnancy hormone HCG (human chorionic gonadotrophin) which is produced by the fertilized egg just after conception. The “vaccine” contains a molecule in which HCG is linked to a diphtheria or tetanus carrier. When a pregnancy occurs and begins producing HCG, this molecule triggers an immune reaction against it, just as it would against diphtheria or tetanus. The body is tricked into attacking HCG and the fertilized egg.

            The doctors in Kenya sent out samples to independent labs and they found HCG in the tetanus vaccines. It was not supposed to be in the vaccine, and none of the millions injected were informed of this ingredient. Similar to the 100 million being injected with polio vaccines contaminated with SV40 cancer virus as an unknown ingredient until the 1970’s.

          • Cobalt

            This cut and paste argument was addressed down thread. Repeating it without addressing the concerns already raised doesn’t help your case.

          • Katia

            New? Anti-HCG vaccines were in trials (not court trials, usefulness trials, Chris) in 1991.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1514026

            Anyway, Chris, you have been lied to about these independent labs, etc. For your edification, I recommend this article, from 1995. Why this is being reported on woo sites twenty years later as being something new, I’ll never know.

            This is an old pdf and can’t be quoted, but I’ll type out some of the info as I doubt you’ll ever open the link.
            “When the vaccines were tested in laboratories that used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain HCG.”
            http://www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/resources/milstien.pdf

            The confusion seems to be that the anit-HCG vaccine, which was in trials, contained tetanus toxoid as a carrier. Howver, I would suspect that bit of vaccine technology is beyond your understanding.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I had an antibody against HCG with my first pregnancy. It wasn’t made for that I have a weird antibody that is for salicylic acid that for some reason got more specialized for binding other antibodies and can do a range of strange things. It just made me very sick. I did not lose the pregnancy or anything. My daughter is now 25 years old.

          • Cobalt

            If you’re making an attempt to mock my penis, not only are you an idiot, but also an asshole.

          • Chris

            Here is a government source on the WHO use of HCG in vaccines to regulate fertility, since you only trust Government/Pharma sources.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1874951

          • Daleth

            Chris, that is about creating “vaccines” whose sole purpose is to protect against pregnancy. It’s not about “lacing” actual vaccines (anti-disease shots) with drugs that prevent pregnancy.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Um…the vaccines being developed are specifically to prevent pregnancy. In other words, they’d be given to women who do not desire pregnancy, not to random women. Also, HCG is mentioned as a vaccine target, not a vaccine component. An ANTI-HCG vaccine is being developed as a possible treatment for prevention of undesired pregnancy. I have no idea whatsoever why you believe that this supports anything you’ve claimed.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Chris, seriously, you are making a fool of yourself. You have just posted a link to a paper about the development of an ANTI-HCG vaccine tested in women that do not want any more pregnancies and you are critizicing the WHO for injecting HCG on women… Either it is one or it is the other.

            By the way, it is a clinical trial, you know, with ethics commitee approval, informed consent forms signed, that kind of stuff. It is really patronizing that because it is been made on african countries you think that those women do not have any interest in taking part on said trial. Looks like you think they are primitive and have no capacity of making decissions about their healthcare and their family size and what contraceptives they are happy with.

          • Chris

            ” it is a clinical trial, you know, with ethics commitee approval, informed consent forms”.
            The 2.3 million African women injected in Kenya were told they were receiving a tetanus vaccine, not a fertility regulating vaccine containing some form of HCG. There was no informed consent. If there were fertility regulating agents in the vaccine, which independent tests showed, and the women were not informed, then this was yet another one of many unethical tests which governments and their proxies have done on unknowing populations in the past.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            The paper you have linked talks about a clinical trial with informed consent. I kindly suggest you read the links you post.

            Either that or I will have to conclude that you do not understand what you read. As confusing a vaccine agaisnt a hormone with administering that hormone inside a vaccine (as a contaminant I guess).

          • Chris

            Anti-HCG vaccines do contain HCG as an ingredient. Do a 5 minute google search to educate yourself before criticizing.

          • Roadstergal

            You’ll be happy to know that this was all sound and fury drummed up by some very confused and/or malicious Kenyan Catholic bishops, so check this worry off of your list.
            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/11/13/catholic-doctors-and-priests-versus-the-tetanus-vaccine-in-kenya/

          • Chris

            Some of those Catholics are trained and intelligent doctors, and they used independent scientific labs for the testing.

          • Wren

            Controls?
            How did they obtain these samples? Were they contaminated?
            What amount of hCG was found? Is that sufficient to cause the development of antibodies?

          • Roadstergal

            Oh, I didn’t know you were so new to the internet. The blue text in my post is a link. If you click on it and read it, all of the issues with the samples, the form of hCG, and the labs that might have made the story seem superficially plausible are succinctly addressed.

          • yugaya

            Ouch. 😀

          • Roadstergal

            Well, they’re not very good with biology or chemistry – I shouldn’t assume they know HTML.

            I’ll gladly defer when it comes to Spanish.

          • Box of Salt

            The labs might have been independent, but they did not run the appropriate tests.

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2014/11/17/a-resurrected-vaccine-fear-puts-kenyan-infants-at-risk/

            “A representative of one of the labs that tested the bishops’ samples, meanwhile, has stated that the testing used was appropriate only for human samples, not vaccine samples, and does not provide evidence that the vaccine contains hCG.”

            “Subsequent tests conducted appropriately in multiple labs in five countries showed no hCG in the vaccine.”

          • yugaya

            http://www.uvm.edu/~bwilcke/ehreth.pdf

            This too:

            http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/SOWVI_full_report_english_LR1.pdf

            P.S. People like you reaching for people in developing world only in order to exemplify your lunatic beliefs shows the true extent of your inherent privilege-fueled bigotry.

          • Chris

            And experimenting on unknowing brown skin people which governments have a long history of doing over and over again, such as the Tuskegee Experiment, or the Guatemala Project is not bigotry?

            After these and many other admissions, no government agency should be trusted with your health.

          • yugaya

            There was that vaccine blog where one of yer vaxxbuddies linked a supposed CDC insider talking about “experimenting on people in third world countries”, a trusted source in your world who then went on to list Poland and (non-existent) Czechoslovakia as examples of the places where she knew first hand such evil government schemes were taking place.

            You’ve probably shared that “insider” youtube video when running off of this particular tangent.

          • Wren

            Oh yes! The third world country of Poland!

          • yugaya

            Here it is in all of its glory:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ–PQBgam8

            It was this blog http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/02/whither-the-anti-vaccine-movement-now-that-it-has-been-discredited.html , graced by the superiorly skeptical presence of Alain Couvier. :)))

          • Who?

            Good times…

          • SporkParade

            HCG is a hormone produced by pregnant women and its level increases rapidly during the first trimester of pregnancy. Also, there’s a difference between sterilization and abortifacients.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am not interested in reading anything from age of autism. Why don’t you tell us in your own words.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        Poor sources only confirm your already held bias. No one is going to read age of autism that actually knows anything about this subject. I do not like to be lied to.

        • Sue

          Same old argument.. you disagree so you wont read …Lied to.. you are lied to every single day by BIG Pharma.. and you just don’t get it do you.. 1 case of measles diagnosed to 7000 cases of autism.. wow you are so gullible…or maybe you are also on BIG Pharmas payroll…

          • Roadstergal

            Yes, we’re definitely doing a much better job of diagnosing kids on the spectrum and getting them the assistance that can help them learn and function in society. And vaccines have lowered the incidence of VPDs – although pockets of ignorant anti-vaccinators is allowing them to come roaring back. Honestly, I don’t see why better diagnosis of a formerly neglected genetic condition, and the suppression of VPDs by widespread vaccination, are bad things. But unlike AoA, I think autistic people should be alive and happy.

          • Sue

            I have know idea who AoA, .. and for you even to put in you think autistic people should be alive and happy.. is well of course they should be alive .. no question.. happy.. I wish that was true.. a lot maybe as happy as they can be but a lot more are locked in a terrible world.. and it is devastating on the families.. believe me.. love our children you bet.. wish they were not vaccine damaged you bet…And it is the biggest fabrication saying there is better diagnosis.. this is just a way to whitewash the truth and keep those parents coming in for their children to get a multitude of toxic chemicals in their vaccines.. if they new the truth they would run a mile.. which is what i wish I had done….

          • Nick Sanders

            Your patronization does less than nothing to help people living with autism.

          • Sue

            Patronisation … Mm well Nicky loosing your mojo.. Really.. I am Patrionising autistic people am I?? You are so so silly quite honestly you are…

          • Who?

            Your child would have autism whether or not he or she was vaccinated.

            I’m sure autism is a great burden on your family-please don’t add to that burden by wasting any time, money, effort or hope on ‘cures’ which are nothing more than false hopes peddled by false healers.

          • Sue

            Well that says it all about you doesnt it.. Parents do not care about trying to help your children.. just take it on the chin… there is no hope.. what type of person says this..Oh that is right those who are paid by BIG Pharma.. and do not what parents to try anything unless it makes BIG Pharma money…

          • Who?

            That’s a tiny circle you’re running in.

            My nephew is aspergers/autistic. So is, it turns out, are his dad, aunt and uncle. Why should we want help? It’s no one’s fault but their genes. If we were badly off they would get assistance from the government because they have a child with challenges. As it is, thankfully, that isn’t needed.

          • Sue

            Well are you not lucky that you don’t need full time care for your severely autistic.. nephew uncle whatever..and it may well be hereditary in your family but in the majority of families it is not….miss expert..

          • Who?

            Yes we are lucky, no one denies that. That is the very point I was making, in fact.

            You are wrong to suggest there is no hereditary component to autism.

          • Sue

            No I am not.. the component causing autism is VACCINES…..

            An a amazing movie must watch…. TRACE AMOUNTS – the documentary
            on mercury and its …

            traceamounts.com/

            THE GREATER GOOD……….. a Vaccine movies as well.. really really good….

            DOCTORED This movie is a good watch at basically how BigPharma
            got it strongholdhttp://www.doctoredthemovi……

            “Bought” 2014 a jeff hay movie about the so called modern
            medical profession and how the demonize…

    • Do you have access to the full text of the first study? If so, can you please explain to me what the heck “autism symptom phenotype” means? From the abstract it’s difficult to tell, but we all know that diagnoses using confirmed parental interviews will always be a subset of diagnoses of patients in the national registry, regardless of what is increasing or not. Also, you may not be aware that they were not using the pertussis vaccine in Sweden during the time period of this study, drastically reducing the amount of mercury these children were exposed to. So Sweden is not a particularly relevant place to study why autism is increasing in the US.

      As for the second study, it’s kinda stupid. They are basically saying that since there is a correlation between the increase in incidence of autism and changes in diagnostic criteria, the changes must account for the increased incidence. It’s no different than someone saying that the increase in autism correlates with an increase in the number of vaccines given, or to the amount of mercury they are being exposed to, etc. Make sense?

      M.I.N.D. INSTITUTE STUDY CONFIRMS AUTISM INCREASE
      http://www.dds.ca.gov/Autism/MINDEpidemiologyStudy.htm

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        The absolute number of cases in California increased between 1987 and 1998. So did the population. The study does not appear to have ever been peer reviewed. I’m underwhelmed.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        Clink on the link that says free full text article. Here is a Wiki explanation of what phenotype means. It basically means what you see in an organism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    The anti-vaxxers ought to join today’s discussion about privilege as a prerequisite for vaccine refusal since they demonstrate the privilege that protects them as they spout unscientific nonsense.

    http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/04/vaccine-refusal-how-privileged-mothers-leverage-their-privilege-and-harm-the-less-fortunate.html

    Anti-vax is also about ego, and it’s difficult to imagine bigger egos than those of individuals who have never taken a course in immunology, statistics or public health, but are SURE they know better than immunologists, physicians or public health experts.

    • Hans Meyer

      “Anti-vax is also about ego”

      I believe that it is also about this…

      Not all narcissists are anti-vaxxers, but here’s why all anti-vaxxers are total narcissists

      …and this:

      These people want their children to suffer

      Kudos on your posts, @AmyTuteur:disqus .

      (and apologies if you’ve already seen the articles I’ve posted).

    • Marilyn Lachey

      But what about all the physicians, microbiologists, biochemists, pediatricians, or public health experts that speak on the lack of efficacy and safety of vaccines? Oh yes…they are ALL Quacks…how convenient. Good thing intelligent people know that the age old tactic is to malign and discredit anyone that speaks truth on contentious issues or on issues of wrongdoing. Let’s talk about the conflicts of interest among vaccine defenders and who is discrediting all these professionals. Let’s have a real discussion.

      • Who?

        What about all the ones that speak about the great efficacy and safety of vaccines, though. That group are the vast majority.

        And Marilyn, calling people shills then decrying the act of maligning (other) people is a pretty cheeky move.

        Let’s talk about what people flogging homeopathy, naturopathy, chelation, acupuncture, reiki and whatever else have to gain by selling what they prescribe. Where do they get their qualifications? What are their incomes from their consultations? What are the profits from their products? What do they pay in insurance? How much ongoing training are they required to do? Let’s talk about how when those things don’t work it is not the fault of the practitioner but the fault of the ‘patient’ who didn’t try hard enough. Very happy to have a serious discussion about the role of Big Pharma in Big Supplement and the profits to be made there.

        And while we’re at it let’s talk about the Wellness Warrior, who peddled her ‘lifestyle’ and ‘health’ wares online until moments before her death, taking who knows how many to their deaths, and Belle Gibson, a ‘cancer’ ‘survivor’ with big contracts for food and lifestyle, who turns out to be a deeply troubled, but otherwise well girl.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        But what about all the physicians, microbiologists, biochemists,
        pediatricians, or public health experts that speak on the lack of
        efficacy and safety of vaccines? Oh yes…they are ALL Quacks

        Considering that they constitute at most maybe 1% of those groups, I have no problem thinking they are all quacks.

        I admit that I haven’t heard all them, but considering that all of them that we do hear and are quoted are, yeah, pretty much quacks, it’s not a stretch. Seriously, folks like Bob Sears and Jay Gordon, the poster children for the anti-vax pediatricians? Yeah, total quacks.

        Of course, we’ve already heard this stuff. I know it’s a long thread, but the “list of those who question vaccines” was given a couple days ago. Awfully underwhelming. And it also includes people who are decidely NOT anti-vax at all, but thrown in to try to make it look more impressive. And we have heard a couple times in this thread the opinions of the anti-vax person with a PhD in paleo of some sort. But she is paraded around as some serious anti-vax voice (because anti-vaxxers will grab onto ANYONE with a PhD).

        • ciaparker2

          Bob Sears and Jay Gordon are not anti-vax physicians, but are vehemently in favor of vaccines, but, unlike many doctors, respect parental choice.
          I have a Ph.D. and a law degree, and, since my daughter was rendered autistic by vaccine encephalitis, have spent years researching the issue of vaccines. There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism. Vaccines always irritate the immune system into responding to the vaccine with making antibodies, but this irritation is always expressed as inflammation, which can involve the brain and cause stroke-like brain damage to the language and social center of the brain, and can sensitize the immune system to vaccine ingredients, resulting in autoimmune disease of every sort, but primarily asthma, allergies, bowel disease, or diabetes.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            ave spent years researching the issue of vaccine

            Got a publication list from all those years of “researching”?

            Bob Sears and Jay Gordon are not anti-vax physicians,

            Of course they are.

          • ciaparker2

            Then why do they both say they strongly support giving vaccines? Dr. Sears highly recommends giving four DTaPs at 2, 4, 6, and 18 months, as per normal schedule. Also the Hib, Prevnar, and rotavirus vaccines, also as per schedule. He recommends not giving more than two shots per visit, with not more than one aluminum-containing vaccine per visit, and to avoid any mercury-containing vaccines, like most injected flu vaccines. He recommends the MMR in separate vaccines, which seems not to be possible at this time, but he recommends the normal version for that reason. I have written many things critical of both of them for that reason. They both respect parental choice, however. Is that your problem? You think all doctors should bully parents into submission to the extremely dangerous standard schedule?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Flu vaccines given in the US are usually provided in single dose vaccines which do not contain preservative. Actually, the vaccines are usually given intranasal at this point, which I think is a live vaccine, so preservative would be contraindicated. The MMR does not and never has contained any preservative or adjuvant.

          • ciaparker2

            Our local supermarket advertises injected Fluzone vaccine every winter, including this past winter, with a flyer which says that pregnant women and those over 65 should get its “preservative-free” version, the preservative being mercury. It says everyone, from infants six months old and up, should get the vaccine, but does not recommend that they get the mercury-free version.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So get the preservative free version if it makes you happy. I’ve never seen anyone in the US use the multi-dose version, but maybe you’re not in the US or maybe it’s a regional thing. The MMR still doesn’t have it and never did.

          • Bugsy

            I’ve never heard of the multi-dose flu shot in the U.S., either, despite 20+ years of getting the flu shot annually. When we moved to Canada, my son’s 1-year-old flu shot was split into two…but since then, he’s been back on the single dose alongside the rest of us.

            …and despite the evil multi-dose flu shot he received, there’s no hint of autism in this 2-year-old whose favourite pastime is flirting incessantly with 20-something women.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So why do they peddle vaccine fears with absolutely no basis? (ask Bob Sears for evidence that delaying vaccines or separating vaccines is any safer, he will admit there is none. He is just pandering)

            I will tell you that people who create and promote and pander to public fear as a way to line their pockets may not be anti-vax, but are absolutely quacks.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            He has a cash only practice catering to antivaxxers.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Why? Because they make money at it. They pander to their patients’ parents’ delusions and the parents pay them cash for their dubious services. And they get attention as “brave maverick” doctors who don’t follow what “Big Pharma” says. If they admitted that they were FOS and that their recommendations were worthless at best, harmful at worst, who would pay attention to them, buy their books, and go to their clinics any longer? That’s why they keep peddling baseless fear.

          • Medwife

            Two shots per visit? That adds up to quite a few more visits. Does he charge per visit? Hmmmmm!

          • Roadstergal

            I’m pretty sure that’s Jay Gordon’s economic model.

          • Medwife

            Him and much of the AP industry. Fancy slings, the breast feeding accoutrements, baby and pediatric chiropractic, organic/non gmo foods; if you love your baby, you’ll show it with your wallet. Poor people just don’t love their kids as much.

          • ciaparker2

            I took my daughter for only one shot per visit, because it is thought to be safer that way (much good it did us). I took our cat in for only one shot per visit, only two total, feline distemper and rabies. Same reason. Loving parents are glad to pay more to try to protect their children from harm.

          • Medwife

            Real or imagined harm, yes. And those fine physicians know it.

          • ciaparker2

            The more shots you give at one time, the more fierce the incursion of many antigens at once, the fiercer the immune system’s reaction to the vaccine tends to be. Books about both human children and pets advise separating vaccines, and giving as few as is thought necessary. Hannah Poling got eight vaccines at once, reacted immediately, and it caused her severe autism. So you’re just going to laugh gaily, say Fiddle-dee-dee, I don’t believe that vaccines put one iota of stress on the immune system, stick my baby with ten all at the same time, get it over with fast, who cares about the reaction?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I took my daughter for only one shot per visit, because it is thought to be safer that way

            Thought by whom? Not anyone who knows anything about vaccines.

            Bob Sears CLAIMS it, I know, but if you ask him, he will admit that there is absolutely no basis for it. But it has sold a lot of books for him.

          • Bugsy

            I wasn’t going to chime in here until I heard the ridiculous statement “loving parents are glad to pay more to try to protect their children from harm” as tied to your references to space out vaccines.

            I delayed my son’s vaccinations when he was little due to fears spread by the darn internet echo chamber. The only outcome? He was left longer at risk of being killed by a serious disease. We had a local measles outbreak when he was just shy of his first birthday. You can bet your a** I had him vaccinated for MMR _on_ his first birthday.

            My listening to the anti-vaccination fear mongering echo chamber was not being a loving parent. It was putting my son at risk of serious disease or even death, all in the guise of being a loving parent. It was only when I did coursework in epidemiology that I realized that my fears were causing me to play Russian Roulette w/ my son’s health. The baby I’m currently carrying? He/she will be vaccinated as early as possible, starting with the TDAP and flu shots while still in the womb.

            There is _no_ evidence that Sears’ delayed schedule is the responsible thing to do, and in fact, everything I’ve seen demonstrates that the current vaccination schedule is the safest option for our children…both in terms of the shots that are safe to have together as well as protecting our kids as early as possible from disease.

          • yugaya

            Individual vaccination schedule is not what those quacks are selling – you get consultations with immunologists and other specialists who work together to make the best recommendation around the identified increased risks of adverse reaction. Medical childhood vaccination waiver has little to nothing to do with what parents feel or think is right.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            And ka-ching! says Dr. Jay. No wonder he feeds the anti-vax delusions if it’s this profitable. Amazing that someone who is so into the idea that doctors and pharma are out to get you isn’t the least bit skeptical of the obviously self-interested advice given by her pediatrician.

          • Box of Salt

            Loving parents provide protection from harm for their children in a timely manner, not on shot per visit.

          • Daleth

            I’m really sorry for what your daughter, and you, have suffered. I hope this doesn’t upset or annoy you, but here’s some information:

            It takes more than a million children getting vaccinated for one child to develop encephalitis (and slightly more than half the kids who get encephalitis will recover with no lasting effects, so basically it’s about a 1 in 2.5 million risk). In contrast, if only 5000 kids get measles, one of those children’s measles will progress to encephalitis.

            If a kid gets encephalitis either way, the chances of recovery without lasting effects are the same, but the *incidence* of encephalitis is 200 times greater without vaccination. So you end up with 200 times more children dying (15% of encephalitis sufferers) and 200 times more children having lasting problems.

            http://www.encephalitis.info/information/further-information/

            No one’s claiming that vaccines are perfect or that 100% safety is achievable in this world. It’s just that the world is much, much safer–about 200 times safer when it comes to measles-related encephalitis alone, for instance–with vaccines. But I’m sure that no matter how low the risk is, it must be horrifying when yours is the family that’s hit.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s not true. Read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hep-B Vaccine and Autism, to get a more accurate idea of the frequency of vaccine encephalitis. One in 36 American children has autism now, and nearly all of them have it from vaccine encephalitis.

          • Daleth

            That claim is just absurd. Most people with autism never had any form of encephalitis. It’s so sad to see people latch on to these weird conspiracy theories and purposely overlook blatant contradictions such as: having autism in family members, especially parents or siblings, drastically increases your risk of autism (i.e. it’s genetic); having a parent who is an engineer greatly increases it, and if both parents are engineers the risk goes up accordingly (since engineers are more likely than average to have it–i.e., again, it’s genetic)…

            Also, seriously, you want me to read a book about vaccines… by a dietician? How about I recommend a book about medical malpractice law written by a schoolteacher? Can we get any less relevant/qualified?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I have a Ph.D.

            In Spanish. If I want to know about possible ecofeminist themes in Spanish literature, I’ll ask you. However, that doesn’t mean squat for vaccines.

            (her thesis title was, “The malaise of patriarchy: Spanish women’s voices in the realist novel”)

            and a law degree,

            When it is convenient. You have also claimed to be a nurse or some other sort of medical degree.

            https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/the-weird-and-confusing-world-of-ciaparker/

            Amazingly, sufficiently large loons leave pretty big footprints on them there internets…

          • Daleth

            I don’t think that Spanish PhD is her. There are two people in the US with this poster’s name; one has a law degree and the other has a PhD (in psychology).

          • Roadstergal

            I’m thinking she’s the one who writes for Age of Autism. :p

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Really? Wonder if it’s a paid position? I always did think that the “shill” accusation was a bit of projection. Perhaps that explains the remarkable reluctance of the anti-vaxxers to move to a different thread and the prevalence of content free posts from them: Maybe they get paid by the comment on this thread and this thread alone.

          • Daleth

            Does that mean she’s Cynthia Ann Parker who got a PhD in Spanish Lit in 1997? My google searching, though admittedly cursory, doesn’t support that. It doesn’t refute it either, but I did find two women whose name is much closer to this poster’s handle and who each have one of the degrees that this poster claims to have. I also don’t see any evidence that the above-mentioned Cynthia Ann has/had a law degree. Totally open to the possibility I’m wrong but just wanted to be clear.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I saw a mention on another website that she had a PhD in spanish, and found that thesis.

            ETA: she admits it below

          • ciaparker2

            I have both a law degree and a Ph.D.

          • Daleth

            Uh huh. And is the PhD in Spanish or Psychology? Which one? Not that either gives you any special ability to understand immunology, any more than a PhD in immunology gives someone an ability to understand Spanish literature or family systems therapy…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            And is the PhD in Spanish or Psychology?

            It’s spanish; she admits it below

          • Daleth

            Then I apologize for possibly slandering other people with the same name.

          • Nick Sanders

            If your are a PhD researcher, surely you can share your CV? These findings of yours, which contradict every other known study, surely have been published somewhere.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism.

            Why do you say that? What is the evidence that vaccines cause autism? What is the evidence that autism is even related to immune issues? Autism is not stroke. The characteristic changes that occur in stroke on MRI are not seen in autism. If immune response is involved in the pathogenesis of autism, why should vaccines, which cause a lesser immune response than natural infection, be an issue but not natural infection with the whole and active pathogen?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            BTW, I’m autistic. Shall I apologize for not being dead?

          • LibrarianSarah

            Oh silly CAMN we are not real autistic people. We are too “high functioning.” Real autistic people don’t advocate for themselves but function as blank slates that these bigots can project their ablist bullcrap on. Remember you are not autistic enough for your opinion to count if you can voice disagreement with what someone who is not autistic at all wants for you.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Well, it’s true that anyone who tries to give me a bleach enema will have that enema some place unfortunate. For them. So I suppose the nonverbal autistics who can’t fight back as effectively are easier targets.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Is there a place more unfortunate than the place enema’s are already supposed to go? If so I must admit I’ve lived a sheltered life.

          • Nick Sanders

            I suppose you could pour it in their eyes.

          • Cobalt

            If you’re giving your kid bleach enemas to “cure” autism, you deserve to have this happen.

          • Mishimoo

            I always suggest sideways up someone’s left nostril.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            As a final resting place. Via the transurethral route.

          • yugaya

            I’ve learned a lot from you and other people advocating for themselves when it comes to autism. Your comments and insights gave me better understanding and in a way taught me how to help my big kid find her own voice when it comes to her autism. She is also too high functioning to be obvious or for her autism to be taken seriously where we live.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Dr bob and Dr jay are just shills.

          • Box of Salt

            If Bob Sears is ” vehemently in favor of vaccines” why did he publicly oppose the CA bill requiring informed consent for Personal Belief Exemptions (AB 2109)? And why is he now speaking out against SB277?

            As for Jay Gordon – he admits he only reluctantly gave his patients the MMR when measles was running through Southern California this January.

            ciaparker2, if you believe that statement you typed here, you are seriously delusional.

          • Roadstergal

            I’ve seen some of Jay Gordon’s Tweets – the man is either very ignorant of how vaccines work, or he panders to those who are very ignorant of how vaccines work (and also opposes SB277 while showing he wasn’t quite clear on what it entails). Being the Vaccine-‘skeptical’ Pediatrician To The Stars And Affluent is very lucrative for him.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’ve seen some of Jay Gordon’s Tweets – the man is either very ignorant
            of how vaccines work, or he panders to those who are very ignorant of
            how vaccines work

            All you need to know about Jay Gordon is that he taught Jenny McCarthy everything she knows about vaccines. Basically, he was the one behind all of McCarthy’s nonsense – she was effectively his mouthpiece.

            You have seen his tweets…I’ve actually had conversations with him (when I frequented RI he would comment). He is a buffoon. An absolutely blithering buffoon.

          • Roadstergal

            He definitely brings out the crazy in the RI comments section, but I had thought he might tone it down a bit in his Tweets, being more of a ‘public’ face. Narp. He’s either unaware of his ignorance or is selling it intentionally.

          • ciaparker2

            All decent people oppose SB 277, you haven’t noticed? There is no problem. There has not been a single case that has been cited to show that even a single unvaxed child has given a classmate a disabling or fatal case of any vaccine-preventable disease. Measles and pertussis are really the only diseases we’re talking about, and in schoolchildren they are extremely rarely dangerous. But EVERYONE now knows families with vaccine-damaged children, and autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody. If they pass SB 277, they will also have to require that children who have gotten a live vaccine in the previous six weeks remain at home in quarantine so as not to shed live virus which might damage the immunocompromised. Since the pertussis and flu vaccines actually protect so few from the diseases, they’ll just have to accept that the immunocompromised may get these diseases even from appropriately vaxed classmates.
            But this is what Dorit was hired two years ago to do, and so now she’s done it. The exact same bill introduced in about ten state legislatures hoping to terrify the public so much with the minor, harmless measles outbreak at Disneyland that they could ramrod through a vaccine mandate and take away all personal exemptions. And THAT has terrified the you-know-what out of EVERYBODY! The state will have absolute power to require as many vaccines as the vaccine companies dictate, and medical exemptions would only be for children with cancer. Children whose siblings had had horrific reactions would not be exempt, hell, the children with horrific reactions would not be exempt from continuing the series and getting all the others. And so we have seen the bill shot down in at least eight state legislatures, because THE PUBLIC DOESN’T WANT IT! They don’t want it in California either, but the legislators, bought by the vaccine companies, have passed it along so far. Very exciting, I predict riots in the streets soon. Because good parents are not going to endanger their children’s lives by giving them vaccines they think are dangerous. Period.

          • Medwife

            Wow. Autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody?

            FUCK. YOU. My kid is beautiful.

          • Mishimoo

            Autistic kids are awesome!! The way their eyes light up when talking about their special interest? That is beautiful, and I will never get tired of seeing it.

            Anyone that is scared of them can fuck right off.

          • Who?

            My nephew who is generally a fairly hard to warm to child is a delight when on his pet topic. And you know what it isn’t up to him to be easy to warm to, or to delight me either.

            He is his own unique self. His parents have worked hard with him to help him fit in, learn to use his words not his fists, and good on them.

            Really over this ‘austism is the worst thing ever’ nonsense.

          • Mishimoo

            Same here. It’s unfair and unkind, and it should not be tolerated! Ableism has got to go.

            If my granddad was a child today, there’s a fair chance that he’d be diagnosed with autism. He was my biggest positive influence, he was the only adult that never yelled at me when I was a kid, he indulged my interests and taught me so many things. When I think of autistic adults, I think of him and our wonderful rambling conversations.

          • Medwife

            My husband’s father is smack dab on the spectrum, never diagnosed of course. He’s done great for himself in spite of the lack of support from school and society and I have high hopes for my son, who is getting early intervention. There has never been a time when everyone has lived on there own and played taxes, and that’s ok, because we’re not fucking wolves.

          • ciaparker2

            My daughter had meltdowns at school because they put her in all typical middle school classes, because she has a normal IQ (according to them, anyway). Four or five hours a day sitting in classes in which she understood not a single word, they gave her nothing she could do, even though she could have learned from adapted instructional materials and done worksheets. They said the modern thing is the inclusive classroom, but my daughter can understand NOTHING of what goes on in class, cannot participate, cannot say ANYTHING. Just sat there bored, waiting for the class to end. They wouldn’t put her in special ed because they said she had normal intelligence. They didn’t understand at all what the language disability of autism is. She can’t talk to anyone, can’t communicate, can’t understand. She had no friends because she can’t talk to anyone.
            She’s going to turn 15 on Tuesday. Can’t talk, can’t understand. She won’t be able to have a job or support herself, but our county case manager said we’ll have to go to court to fight for SS disability payments, because the system has been so overwhelmed with the deluge of autistic young people coming of age with nothing to do, no place to go, that the system can’t handle them. They’re giving SS disability to fewer and fewer, because they believe, I guess, that there is no REAL increase, that this apparent deluge must be kids PRETENDING they can’t function. Great.

          • toni

            I’m sorry its been such a struggle for you and your daughter. I would hate to think of my child being stuck at school all day, confused and getting nothing out of it. I’m very surprised a non verbal teenager is considered functioning enough to be at a normal school with no additional help. that’s nuts. If her condition isn’t recognised and understood it will be hard for her to fulfill her potential, find what she is good at etc. You’re clearly utterly convinced that vaccines caused her autism.. I know a 7 year old autistic boy who was never vaccinated who does not speak a word and appears not to understand anything said to him. He lives in a rural area that has the highest rating for air quality. His mother is worried for his future and how people will treat him as an adult. I’d be scared too. I don’t think looking for something to blame it on is helpful though.. it’s just the way she was made. There’s simply no evidence that autism and vaccinating are linked. Has your daughter had any kind of therapy to help her communicate? I assume she is able to take care of herself somewhat and do regular kid things if she has been deemed of normal intelligence.

          • Who?

            I”m sorry you and your daughter are suffering.

            Perhaps ‘they’ are providing fewer payments because the US has been in a budget crisis and is in thrall to a political ideology that says that government is a thieving waste of time.

            The kinds of jobs that used to be available for people like your daughter have been mechanised or sent offshore to save a dollar somewhere. My daughter is about to finish a four year university degree and probably won’t get a job, because her industry, booming 5 years ago, has tanked.

            There is no system, just a bunch of people trying to do right according to their lights. You want money for your daughter, others want money for other things, we are all competing for a dwindling cake.

            It’s such a shame you have so much anger that you need to put out into the world.

            And there is no real increase, just improved awareness and a greater fondness for and reliance on cookie-cutter people. Oh and way more parents with the education and temperament to put time and money into activism.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Earlier you claimed that your daughter said “cat food” and “harley” and nothing else. Except that in another post you said she now uses “some” and “any” thanks to you and you alone. Now you’re claiming that she’s in typical middle school classes (at 15?). I’ve never seen a school district incompetent enough to put an essentially nonverbal child in mainstream classes and I went to school in Texas so I know from bad schools. Also, you claimed she could read. How do you even know whether she’s reading if she’s not verbal? Your description of your daughter’s condition and treatment simply makes no sense and is inconsistent between various posts.

          • ciaparker2

            They can talk? They’re on the higher-performing end of the spectrum. My daughter says Cat food and Harley, and that’s about all. I say What do you want to do today? and she says Cat food! I say Would you rather go swimming or take a walk, and she says Harley! She can read, was hyperlexic, but doesn’t read because she can’t follow story lines.
            My daughter’s brain was damaged by vaccine encephalitis, and she has been robbed of most of what makes us human. She has average intelligence, according to a school IQ test, but is locked inside her mind, unable to use or understand enough language to make a bridge out of her mind and connect with the outer world. No friends, nothing to do, nothing to read, nothing.

          • Nick Sanders

            Again, I don’t believe you.

          • ciaparker2

            The number one diagnostic criterion for autism is inability or great difficulty in using language to communicate: this is a hallmark of autism. If you can use language appropriately to communicate, you don’t have autism. Autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis: the brain swells when the immune system mounts an inflammatory reaction to the incursion of the vaccine, it often causes swelling of the brain, which reduces or cuts off circulation to vital centers of the brain, especially the language and social center. My daughter’s screaming syndrome lasted for four days and nights, and that was enough to severely damage her brain. They say it’s a medical emergency if the screaming lasts even three hours nonstop.
            Look it up. It’s like a stroke in which circulation is cut off by a blood clot, and same results, the language center of the brain is damaged, and the stroke victim can no longer use language normally, if at all.

          • Nick Sanders

            This is pure bullshit.

            “Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior. Parents usually notice signs in the first two years of their child’s life.[2] The signs typically develop gradually, but some children with autism will reach their developmental milestones at a normal pace and then regress.[3]”

            “Autism has a strong genetic basis, although the genetics of autism are complex and it is unclear whether ASD is explained more by rare mutations with major effects, or by rare multigene interactions of common genetic variants.[51][52] Complexity arises due to interactions among multiple genes, the environment, and epigenetic factors which do not change DNA but are heritable and influence gene expression.[21] Studies of twins suggest that heritability is 0.7 for autism and as high as 0.9 for ASD, and siblings of those with autism are about 25 times more likely to be autistic than the general population.[40] However, most of the mutations that increase autism risk have not been identified. Typically, autism cannot be traced to a Mendelian (single-gene) mutation or to a single chromosome abnormality, and none of the genetic syndromes associated with ASDs have been shown to selectively cause ASD.[51] Numerous candidate genes have been located, with only small effects attributable to any particular gene.[51] The large number of autistic individuals with unaffected family members may result from copy number variations—spontaneous deletions or duplications in genetic material during meiosis.[53] Hence, a substantial fraction of autism cases may be traceable to genetic causes that are highly heritable but not inherited: that is, the mutation that causes the autism is not present in the parental genome.[50]

            Several lines of evidence point to synaptic dysfunction as a cause of autism.[8] Some rare mutations may lead to autism by disrupting some synaptic pathways, such as those involved with cell adhesion.[54] Gene replacement studies in mice suggest that autistic symptoms are closely related to later developmental steps that depend on activity in synapses and on activity-dependent changes.[55]”

            “Parents may first become aware of autistic symptoms in their child around the time of a routine vaccination. This has led to unsupported theories blaming vaccine “overload”, a vaccine preservative, or the MMR vaccine for causing autism.[58] The latter theory was supported by a litigation-funded study that has since been shown to have been “an elaborate fraud”.[59] Although these theories lack convincing scientific evidence and are biologically implausible,[58] parental concern about a potential vaccine link with autism has led to lower rates of childhood immunizations, outbreaks of previously controlled childhood diseases in some countries, and the preventable deaths of several children.[60][61]”

            “Autism’s symptoms result from maturation-related changes in various systems of the brain. How autism occurs is not well understood. Its mechanism can be divided into two areas: the pathophysiology of brain structures and processes associated with autism, and the neuropsychological linkages between brain structures and behaviors.[62] The behaviors appear to have multiple pathophysiologies.[23]”

            “Unlike many other brain disorders, such as Parkinson’s, autism does not have a clear unifying mechanism at either the molecular, cellular, or systems level; it is not known whether autism is a few disorders caused by mutations converging on a few common molecular pathways, or is (like intellectual disability) a large set of disorders with diverse mechanisms.[18] Autism appears to result from developmental factors that affect many or all functional brain systems,[64] and to disturb the timing of brain development more than the final product.[63] Neuroanatomical studies and the associations with teratogens strongly suggest that autism’s mechanism includes alteration of brain development soon after conception.[5] This anomaly appears to start a cascade of pathological events in the brain that are significantly influenced by environmental factors.[65] Just after birth, the brains of children with autism tend to grow faster than usual, followed by normal or relatively slower growth in childhood. It is not known whether early overgrowth occurs in all children with autism. It seems to be most prominent in brain areas underlying the development of higher cognitive specialization.[40] Hypotheses for the cellular and molecular bases of pathological early overgrowth include the following:

            An excess of neurons that causes local overconnectivity in key brain regions.[66]

            Disturbed neuronal migration during early gestation.[67][68]

            Unbalanced excitatory–inhibitory networks.[68]

            Abnormal formation of synapses and dendritic spines,[68] for example, by modulation of the neurexin–neuroligin cell-adhesion system,[69] or by poorly regulated synthesis of synaptic proteins.[70][71] Disrupted synaptic development may also contribute to epilepsy, which may explain why the two conditions are associated.[72]”

            “Diagnosis is based on behavior, not cause or mechanism.[23][105] Under the DSM-5, autism is characterized by persistent deficits in social communication and interaction across multiple contexts, as well as restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities. These deficits are present in early childhood, typically before age three, and lead to clinically significant functional impairment. Sample symptoms include lack of social or emotional reciprocity, stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language, and persistent preoccupation with unusual objects. The disturbance must not be better accounted for by Rett syndrome, intellectual disability or global developmental delay.[7] ICD-10 uses essentially the same definition.[19]

            Several diagnostic instruments are available. Two are commonly used in autism research: the Autism Diagnostic Interview-Revised (ADI-R) is a semistructured parent interview, and the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule (ADOS)[106] uses observation and interaction with the child. The Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS) is used widely in clinical environments to assess severity of autism based on observation of children.[25]

            A pediatrician commonly performs a preliminary investigation by taking developmental history and physically examining the child. If warranted, diagnosis and evaluations are conducted with help from ASD specialists, observing and assessing cognitive, communication, family, and other factors using standardized tools, and taking into account any associated medical conditions.[107] A pediatric neuropsychologist is often asked to assess behavior and cognitive skills, both to aid diagnosis and to help recommend educational interventions.[108] A differential diagnosis for ASD at this stage might also consider intellectual disability, hearing impairment, and a specific language impairment[107] such as Landau–Kleffner syndrome.[109] The presence of autism can make it harder to diagnose coexisting psychiatric disorders such as depression.[110]”

            “ASD can sometimes be diagnosed by age 14 months, although diagnosis becomes increasingly stable over the first three years of life: for example, a one-year-old who meets diagnostic criteria for ASD is less likely than a three-year-old to continue to do so a few years later.[114]”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

          • ciaparker2

            The genetic basis is a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. No vaccines, no problem. There was no autism before vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s absurd.

          • KarenJJ

            I have a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. I have a rare underlying immune system condition that reacts to the adjuvants in vaccines (the inflammatory part of my immune system is always switched on and needs to be controlled by medication). I was diagnosed by an immunologist, a medical doctor (and PhD) who used to work in vaccine research. He brought up vaccine reactions with me! It’s hardly a massive conspiracy when the head of an immunology department of a large teaching hospital starts asking about your reactions to vaccines. The chronic inflammation had affected my brain a bit because I was found to have swollen optic nerves. They wrote a paper about me and published it in a peer-reviewed journal.

            Still not autistic though.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The genetic basis is a genetic predisposition to react to vaccines. No vaccines, no problem.

            That’s what Kim Stagliano thought. That left her youngest autistic AND susceptible to disease.

          • yugaya

            I’m sure they lived next door to illegal mercury manufacturing facility or vaccines were administered in secret by vaccination squads.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Of course, Kim blames her own vaccines, since the kids vaccines no longer explained the results.

            But I will note that, even if Kim were right (and she’s not even close to being right) it still contradicts cia’s claim.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Help me out here. If autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis, why have unvaccinated people been diagnosed with autism?

          • ciaparker2

            I said nearly always. Some people, especially those who live in industrialized areas, develop autism from exposure to industrial toxins, especially mercury, but it can be others as well. But for the vast majority, like 99.999%, it’s from vaccines. The one unvaxed Amish guy who had autism lived next to a mercury-producing electrical plant.

          • Nick Sanders

            The rates of Amish autism are no different from those of the rest of the population.

          • DaisyGrrl

            You said: “Autism is caused by vaccine encephalitis”. There was no nearly about it.

          • VikingRN

            and cia continues to demonstrate that her PhD is imaginary.

          • yugaya

            So, according to you:

            50% of all children in USA have some sort of disease that was caused by vaccines

            and

            99,999% of all autism cases is caused by vaccines.

            I just felt the need to quote that so that the insanity of your claims does not get lost in wordcount.

          • VikingRN

            cia2 claims about vaccination are just as imaginary as her PhD and law degree.

          • Katia

            Oh, for crying out loud cia. There has been more than one unvaxed Amish with autism. There is no similarity between mercury poisoning and autism. Look up the symptoms.

          • yugaya

            ” If you can use language appropriately to communicate, you don’t have autism.”

            Wrong. Even when over time their language abilities/skills develop, the speech impairments will still be there. The fact that they can and do learn how to display ( or rather mimic) verbal/ social communication of a neurotypical person does not magically turn an autistic person into one.

          • VikingRN

            Up to Date describes autism as most likely caused by genetic factors in utero……

          • yugaya

            If you think that parents of highly functioning autistic children who can say much more than your daughter do not face that same communication blockade every day, then you don’t really know shit about autism at all.

          • Wren

            I don’t mean to offend, but I have been wondering about this since I read it.

            If your daughter can only communicate by saying “cat food” and “Harley”, how has her intelligence been tested?

            If she is capable of writing the answers, then her communication is not so limited as you have claimed. If she is capable of pointing to the correct answer, again you have another line of communication available.

            I am terribly sorry for your daughter’s situation, but brain damage via encephalitis (vaccine or disease caused) really is not the usual background of those on the spectrum. My nephew, for example, had no such reaction to vaccines or any other illness and frankly looking back we can see evidence from babyhood that he was different to his cousins and others. We can’t say whether his delayed speech was related to being on the spectrum or to other familial history. Both of his parents were delayed and so was my son, his cousin.

          • Medwife

            He’s beautiful because he’s him.

          • Who?

            ‘All decent people’ hey. Nice. such a judgy couple of words there.

            And I don’t know anyone with a vaccine damaged child.

            There is no evidence that vaccinated children shed live virus.

            Vaccines will not be mandated, but if you want to send your child to state school, you will have to show evidence they are vaccinated. Just like when your child has nits you are asked to keep them home until they are treated. This is how a cooperative society works. If you don’t want to cooperate, fine.

            There will be no anti-vaccine riots, what absolute nonsense.

            And I’m not scared of autistic kids, why would I be?

          • Wren

            I forgot to be scared of my nephew. I love him and enjoy him.

            If anything, he’s easier than my own kids.

          • Roadstergal

            “All decent people oppose SB 277”
            Untrue.

            “There is no problem”
            Untrue.

            “Measles and pertussis are really the only diseases we’re talking about, and in schoolchildren they are extremely rarely dangerous.”
            Untrue.

            “But EVERYONE now knows families with vaccine-damaged children, and autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody”
            Untrue. (Seriously?)

            “If they pass SB 277, they will also have to require that children who have gotten a live vaccine in the previous six weeks remain at home in quarantine so as not to shed live virus which might damage the immunocompromised.”
            Untrue.

            “ince the pertussis and flu vaccines actually protect so few from the diseases”
            They’ll protect a lot more when we tighten up herd immunity at the school level by asking highly delusional folk like you to keep your unvaxed kids away.

            “minor, harmless measles outbreak at Disneyland ”
            Untrue.

            “vaccine mandate and take away all personal exemptions.”
            Untrue.

            “And THAT has terrified the you-know-what out of EVERYBODY! ”
            Untrue.

            “The state will have absolute power o require as many vaccines as the vaccine companies dictate, and medical exemptions would only be for children with cancer.”
            Untrue.

            “THE PUBLIC DOESN’T WANT IT! They don’t want it in California either”
            Untrue.

            So – are you highly misinformed, or are you lying?

          • Nick Sanders

            “autistic kids scare the heck out of everybody”
            Go to hell you ableist bitch.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Took the words out of my mouth (fingertips?). Also BOO MOTHER FUCKER!

          • demodocus’ spouse

            My little autistic cousin doesn’t scare me at all. His “normal” sister, on the other hand, is a complete hellion. I’d rather have him spend 15 minutes in a room alone with my 1 year old than her.

          • ciaparker2

            The thought of having one is what scares people. The thought of raising a child who will never be able to communicate much, never have friends, meaningful employment, travel, live independently, have a family of their own… And they do well to be scared. My vaccine-damaged, autistic daughter is like that, and it scares me to death to think of what’s going to happen to her when I’m gone. The schools don’t get it at all, current speech therapy is completely useless and doesn’t get autism at all, the city has no idea how it’s going to care for its deluge of autistic kids when the parents are gone…. Just trusting that you guys are right, that it’s only better diagnosis, that the numbers are not greater than before, and that something must suddenly kick in to allow what LOOKS like a permanently disabled population to be able to get a job, an apartment, and start paying taxes. What a joke!

          • demodocus’ spouse

            I only see my cousin about once every 3 years, and I understood him just fine.
            My husband *is* permanently disabled from a vaccine preventable disease.. And holding down a job. Its harder to get one if you have a disability, but not impossible by any means. My husband was born with cataracts thanks to rubella, and developed glaucoma as a complication of the cataract removal surgery (in 1976). You should hear some of the utterly foolish comments we get sometimes. It’s worse if it’s the parents who are trying to handicap their child even more than Nature did. Our son, btw, got his 1st MMR 3 days after his first birthday and his 2nd 2 months later.
            There are undoubtably many people in group homes and institutions where were taken for simply mentally retarded who are in fact autistic. That doesn’t mean autism hasn’t been around, just frequently unrecognized, especially when you still hear of adults who’ve been diagnosed in the last 10 years.
            I don’t know where your child falls on the spectrum, but remember, almost by definition, autism does not manifest to the same degree in everybody.

          • ciaparker2

            I am working very hard to try to recover my daughter: the school did nothing at all, just raised all her Fs to As and thought that solved the problem of her not understanding anything or being given anything she could do. We’re using ESL books, and she can now use the words “some” and “any,” which she was never able to use before. It’s very hard, she has never used an adjective spontaneously. The brain damage wreaks havoc on the inborn grammatical structures of the brain (Chomsky), so that they can no longer help the child the way they are supposed to do, to learn to use language naturally.
            And you’re wrong. Autism is new, it was not around before. Read The Age of Autism, book. It has tripled in incidence just since my daughter was born in 2000, and everyone was well aware of it by then, the doctor and Parents as Teachers, the school personnel, were all well aware of the guidelines for diagnosing autism. It is not better diagnosis, but a real and terrifying increase which will break our society. There were no autistic people around when I was a child (it was technically three in 10,000, which it still was in 1987, but we had never heard of it, and never knew anyone with it). Not true that they were all in institutions: institutions are expensive, and there have never been affordable institutions for one in 36 American children. If they existed before, what happened to them, that they’re no longer there just when we’re going to need them? This is window dressing to calm the public: even Tom Insel of the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (or something like that) admits begrudgingly that it is indeed a real and massive increase. And it’s because of vaccines, which is why California will NOT accept the mandate being shoved down its throat.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Autism starts in utero. You cannot “recover” your daughter to a typical brain any more than my mother in law can “recover” her sighted firstborn. What you can do is find work arounds.

          • yugaya

            Newsflash: Chomsky’s generative grammar has been proven to be a mere unsubstantiated hypothesis, especially with latest MRI powered neurolinguistic research results.

            It is great that you are using ESL materials and methodology because it is more suitable than monolingual acquisition approach ( it works on the assumption of overcoming difficulties and identifying production problems in advance as opposed to just building on top of native speaker abilities), but you should consult with qualified speech development specialists because ESL method can only be used as an aid, not as replacement of speech therapy.

          • DaisyGrrl

            It’s perfectly reasonable to be scared of having a disabled child. We naturally want our children to be happy and healthy and able to do anything and everything. But humans have lived with disabilities for the entire history of the species.

            In the last century, humanity has gotten really good at keeping people alive for much longer than they would in a pre-technological society.

            100 years ago, someone with autism would have been called simple, or a moron. They would have been given the most menial jobs, or simply locked away in an asylum to be forgotten. They likely would have died earlier deaths, due to any number of reasons.

            Adults with severe forms of autism today live in group homes with specialized care, or with their families. Not all of them were diagnosed with autism as children. That doesn’t mean they are not autistic.

            There is not some huge wave of disabled children waiting to grow up and overwhelm social services because vaccines. Now polio survivors? That’s another post.

          • ciaparker2

            It IS huge wave of disabled children which will overwhelm social services. Read Dachel’s The Great Autism Cover-Up. Autism is new, did not exist before vaccines, before this very specific type of brain damage. The rate was one in 150 in 2000 when my daughter is born: the CDC announced last month that it’s now one in 50 (U. of Minnesota said two years ago that it’s one in 36). Can you find the asylums which used to take them fifteen years ago? No, because this is just a story. Even in the ’30, institutions were expensive: the well-to-do professional family of Bridget Muncie, one of the first cohort of Dr. Kanner’s autistic children in the late ’30s, was institutionalized,, but her family had a terrible time paying for it. This is just a soothing fantasy to try to reassure people that this is not a crisis, when it’s the worst crisis ever to confront our society. And Californians know it, and will have no part of this literal decimation of society to serve the interests of the vaccine companies.

          • Nick Sanders

            The term is new, but the first well documented case is from 1747.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#History

            Just because we only learned anything about how the mind works in the last 100 years does not mean that nothing existed prior to that.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            100 years ago, someone with autism would have been called simple, or a moron.

            Or just plain strange. A lot of the increase in diagnosis is among people with mild disease. When I was a kid, my parents had this conversation with teachers several times:
            Teacher: Your kid is strange and doesn’t fit in socially.
            Parents: …So?
            If I were a kid today, they’d probably get me tested for asperger’s early on. Would it have helped? Eh, who knows. Would have altered the statistics on the incidence of autism certainly.

          • Wren

            I know at least 5 of the people I went to school with (graduated high school in 1992) have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum as adults. These were all kids who were in the gifted and talented classes from at least 4th grade, but were always a little, well, strange. Now, I am fairly certain they were all vaccinated, but they are also not overwhelming public services and unable to function. All have good jobs and apparently relatively happy lives.

            My nephew is also on the spectrum. He’s 6 months younger than my neurotypical son and yes, you can notice a difference between them but both are doing well academically, have their own particular interests and will likely lead productive lives as adults.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Good point. Also, I’ve read many descriptions of people in historical accounts or older fiction who would likely be diagnosed today but who were simply viewed as odd or strange.

          • VikingRN

            It is a spectrum disorder. In other words some people will have dramatic levels of disability whole others will simply be “quirky.”

          • JJ

            I support SB277! Protect all children in schools and communities! I have healthy children who are fully immunized but I am SO evil I want children who are not even my own to have the privilege to stay disease-free and alive!

          • ciaparker2

            And don’t care at all how many are disabled or killed by the vaccines.

          • DaisyGrrl

            When the number of children disabled or killed by disease is substantially higher than those harmed by vaccines, the choice is clear. We can care about those harmed by something while acknowledging that the number of injured would be far greater otherwise.

          • ciaparker2

            At this time almost half of American children are impaired by vaccines (asthma, allergies, etc., as well as autism in one in 36). None of the VPDs would take such a toll even if no one vaxed for them. Germany, Sweden, and Japan stopped giving the pertussis vaccine for many years because of the damage it caused (Japan stopped giving it to children under two, and its SIDS rate immediately plunged to lowest in the developed world). Sweden saw less than one death a year from pertussis, less than the death toll the vaccine had taken. Dr. Strom said in 1960 that pertussis had become so much milder that he didn’t recommend routine vaccination for all children. Both my daughter and I had it, and it was unpleasant, but not that big a deal. Measles killed one in every 10,000 cases in the US in 1960: 99% of kids, including me, got it by the age of 18.
            Until 1988, the only vaccines given were DPT, MMR, and polio. We didn’t have any of the others, and no one ever expressed a wish for them, no one I ever knew had a bad case of any of them. Very few, if any, children were dying of them. Everyone just lived their lives doing the same things we do now, and these diseases didn’t impinge upon the lives of the vast majority at any time. When I was a child, we didn’t have the MMR, and didn’t need it, no one ever expressed a wish for it. I got measles and rubella, still had the antibodies when I was pregnant and needed them. We didn’t need the DPT: diphtheria was long gone, pertussis was no longer dangerous. The tetanus vaccine may or may not have been useful. Even at its height, tetanus only killed about 120 Americans in one year: most people never had it even though there was not yet any vax for it. Polio only ever affected a tiny percentage of those exposed to it: most got immunity through subclinical exposure or a mild flu-like illness (like E68 last year). It may take exposure to pesticides before you have a crippling case.
            In any case, vaccines are now doing horrendous damage which is far worse than what we’d see even if no one got any vax.

          • DaisyGrrl

            When I was growing up, one of my neighbour’s children was hospitalized for encephalitis brought on by chickenpox. He survived, but it was very scary for everyone.

            I’m thrilled that there’s a vaccine that can prevent people from experiencing the fear that my neighbour went through.

          • Nick Sanders
          • yugaya

            “At this time almost half of American children are impaired by vaccines (asthma, allergies, etc., as well as autism in one in 36)”

            You are insane to say that, in fact, I believe that you are the most insane antivaxxo to visit this blog if judged on the number of supposed “victims of vaccine damage” that you claim.

          • VikingRN

            Complete and utter horse manure.
            Somehow I think those who lived through the polio pandemics would to put it mildly disagree.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            The most amazing BarkingBN’s input into animal psychology is “somehow I think”.
            Now it is proven – dogs can think!

          • Cobalt

            At least horse manure is useful. What ciaparker2 is producing here can’t even be composted.

          • Bugsy

            Me too!

          • VikingRN

            For someone with a PhD your critical thinking skills are noticeably deficient.

            It is a pretty broad statement to say “There has not been a single case that has been cited to show that even a single unvaxed child has given a classmate a disabling or fatal case of any vaccine-preventable disease.” An unvaccinated child can be asymptomatic and still contagious for several days before becoming clinically ill. All the while spreading their illness to others.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            And dogs can think about vaccines (albeit incoherently)! And they can have canine RN degree.

          • ciaparker2

            Because he is also vehemently respectful of parental choice. Is that so hard to fathom? He thinks vaccines can be dangerous, but usually aren’t. He thinks it’s usually a good idea to get them. BUT he’s not a dictator like most of those in the medical cartel are. He recognizes that vaccines CAN cause horrible damage, and is unwilling to force parents to take that risk if they prefer not to. I disagree with him that vaccines usually aren’t dangerous, but I certainly admire and respect his willingness to respect parental choice where there is any risk, as there is from vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders

            Why is “parental choice” such a special thing, that it must be respected above the actual best interests of the child?

          • Who?

            Because of the primacy of the feral rights argument. All rights, no responsibility. No social contract. No society. Just a bunch of frightened, angry people blaming everyone else for their first world woes.

          • Roadstergal

            It’s because they view children as chattel. Not people.

            Rand Paul: “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            And SB277 allows parental choice. It just adds parental RESPONSIBILITY. And this is why anti-vaxxers oppose it.

          • VikingRN

            Degree inflation? A law degree gives you zero credibility for discussing immunology. If you have a PhD (which I highly doubt) it is from a non accredited life experience diploma mill.
            Unless your PhD is in a health science it has essentially zero credibility.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If you have a PhD (which I highly doubt) it is from a non accredited life experience diploma mill.
            Unless your PhD is in a health science it has essentially zero credibility.

            Oh, she has a legitimate PhD from University of Missouri – Columbia, not a diploma mill.

            Admittedly, it is in Spanish Literature, so means nothing in terms of any health science or any science. But like any crank, she likes to parade her PhD around as if it makes her special.

            PhDs around here are a dime a dozen.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Right! It makes them feel special on their mommy blogs, but on here more people have advanced degrees than not.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            And dogs can even bark at human’s law or PhD degree!

          • yugaya

            Can you behave like an adult online please? Drop the sock puppet and reply to that person if you need to directly. It ain’t entertaining to anyone but you.

        • Marilyn Lachey

          Of course they are ALL quacks; it’s rather laughable actually. That line was so much easier to buy into when there was only one doctor. The many doctors, pediatricians, microbiologists, biochemists, pediatricians, or public health experts that have the same qualifications, credentials and experience and attended the same schools, are board certified and licensed are all quacks; interesting opinion that’s very easy to suggest in order to support your stance, but most intelligent people aren’t buying it anymore. They can read, research and come to their own conclusions. We live in a day when we can readily access information instead of relying on whatever mainstream media feeds; it’s quite liberating actually! It’s obvious why more doctors, scientists, microbiologists and biochemists don’t speak out publically; if they do they risk losing their careers and getting maligned and discredited. How many doctors and others have the integrity and courage it takes to speak out on their concerns about vaccine safety if it means their careers would be over or greatly suffer? Not too many; most people would prefer to trade their values in for benefits. It’s always been this way; look at all the people in the world that have had to fight for a better society and put their lives at risk; not too many in this big world right? They do exist though; I applaud their courage and integrity. Of course there are some of these experts who are not totally against vaccines; nor am I. They merely question the safety and efficacy of some vaccines. Many parents are questioning the same and with valid reason. The fact there’s a vaccine court in the USA, millions of dollars paid out to vaccine injured, Merck facing federal fraud charges and the fact there is a pro vaccine campaign that is pulling out all the stops to ensure their profits don’t suffer is enough for me and others to question vaccine safety with good reason.

          • Wren

            A) What percentage of medical doctors actually claim vaccines are definitely harmful?
            B) How can one determine the validity and value of information found on the internet?

          • Marilyn Lachey

            That’s right..you got me…there’s absolutely nothing valid on the internet! Intelligent people should listen to mainstream media only because they are independent and objective! Come on, seriously! The fact is; we live in an information era and as Hillary Clinton said, “we are losing the information war” Gone are the days when people sat in their living rooms watching mainstream media and believing everything we were told. The internet has allowed people to research and network with others. It’ s a wonderful thing!

          • Wren

            Beautiful strawman there.

            Now would you like to address the actual questions? Or are you actually incapable of doing so?

          • Marilyn Lachey

            I didn’t know what you were referring to when you said, Straw man so guess what I did? I looked it up on the internet!!! ROTFL. I did get the opportunity to understand what logical fallacies are as well.

          • Wren

            I’m glad you got the opportunity to learn something, and took it. No one has denied that the internet contains useful information. It’s how you sift through the masses of information to find what is actually true, or at least backed by sufficient evidence at this current time, that matters. I could, in seconds, find “information” on at least 4 different theories of 9/11. Are they all right? Of course not. It’s not finding information that is hard with the internet, it is determining its value.

            Now, please address the actual questions.

          • Marilyn Lachey

            Don’t worry yourself about us…intelligent people know how to research . I think we’re more than. capable of “sifting” through the information and coming to our own conclusions. Thanks for your concern though.

          • Cobalt

            You still haven’t answered the question…

          • Wren

            You seem to be incapable of explaining how one does this, and in your case it does not seem to involve much consideration of the source. If over 90% of specialists in any field agree, it is far more likely that the majority is correct than incorrect. The only reason the cases in which that is not the case are remembered is preceisely because they are unusual.

            Intelligent people are just as capable of being led astray by biases in their own thinking and logical fallacies as the less intelligent. Their ability to rationalise actually may make it easier.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It is concerning that you have so much confidence in your ability to research but keep coming to the most illogical conclusions.

          • Marilyn Lachey

            Anyone that says anything against vaccines is illogical to a paid shill.

          • Wren

            Ah, now we are back to the claim we are all paid shills.

            Arguments are much easier when you can just dismiss any inconvenient evidence with an unevidenced claim the provider is a shill.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Well, I know you need to lie to yourself and tell your self these things, but the truth of the matter is the specific things you are saying are illogical to a trained scientist.

          • Marilyn Lachey

            Yup..that’s right…all the parents that are concerned about the safety and efficacy of vaccines are lying to themselves, nuts, wacko , blah blah blah…keep telling that to yourselves. You’re not convincing anyone. Furthermore, once people know about astroturfers and paid shills; they can smell you bums a mile away…you have zero credibility.

          • Wren

            Actually, most are probably just confused and unsure who to trust. Rather than relying on experts who have dedicated their lives to the study of the subject, they often come across those who make claims without evidence that appear easier to understand and are, in some ways, soothing.

          • Wren

            As you are so certain there are paid shills here, name them and provide some kind of evidence for each. Otherwise all it is is baseless accusations in place are refutations of the evidence for vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders

            Research? Do you have any publications that I can look at?

          • Marilyn Lachey

            Been there done it..not falling for it again. It doesn’t matter what I post..even the researchers with peer reviewed studies. They are all quacks and all amazingly discredited. As I said, intelligent people will do the research and come to their own conclusios.

          • yugaya

            AAP, over 60 000 members, their official web page on vaccine safety (for those who like to educate themselves by utilising credible web sources): http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

          • Nick Sanders

            It absolutely must be a grand conspiracy, they couldn’t possibly be in the minority because they are wrong.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Why are you posting on this 6 year old post when you have been specifically invited to take the discussion to a much more recent post?

    • VikingRN

      Or nurses or nurse practitioners or clinical nurse specialists…..

    • disqus_k3oycamN0W

      If you wanted “anti-vaxxers” to “join discussion” you had to wright something that makes sense first.
      Looks like computer wrote something randomly for you above. Not even good to ridicule, too boring
      Bye, bue, “MD” Tutu, moderator of your own “article”
      Let this masterpiece be liked by many paid pharma trolls

      • Wren

        Is there supposed to be some kind of insult in the fact Dr Tuteur moderates her blog?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I think that is a child. Even if not, I would leave it alone

      • Box of Salt

        disqus_k3oycamN0W
        “you had to wright something that makes sense first.”

        You should follow your own advice.

  • yugaya

    This post is clogging up and getting hard to load because of too many comments.May I suggest we all evacuate to the most recent SOB post on the subject of vaccines?

    http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/04/scientists-discover-biologic-defect-at-the-root-of-anti-vaccine-advocacy-conspira-scopic-vision.html

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    There’s a long thread with a lot of fuss and bother about vaccines not being tested. So I’d like to propose that someone, preferably someone against universal vaccination to be most fair, suggest a specific vaccine and then we can discuss what tests have been done to demonstrate its safety and efficacy and whether these tests are adequate. I’d suggest one of the newer vaccines, simply because dredging the data up on polio or small pox would be a real pain, but am willing to go with whatever vaccine anyone wants to discuss. Takers?

    • Daleth

      MMR. But full disclosure: I’m pro-universal vaccination.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        The MMR is easy in some ways because it’s been thoroughly studied epidemiologically for a relationship to autism. So far, nothing has been found. I also found this after a very short medline search: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/128287

        The link is to, wait for it, the double blind placebo controlled trial of the MMR! Yep, the mythical trial that the anti-vaxers say can’t have happened. Here it is.

        • Daleth

          You rule.

        • Wren

          But…but…but…

          • Mike Stevens

            Exactly.
            Don’t you anti-disease morons know that the placebos used in that study were saline? You know – the stuff with sodium and chlorine?
            Sodium is a highly reactive element, EXPLODING on contact with water, and chlorine is a TOXIC gas responsible for blinding and choking to DEATH thousands of brave young men in the First WW!
            Need I say any more?

          • Sue

            Nat. Mur. from your homeopath is perfectly safe, however. (In its most potent form, it doesn;t actually contain any natrium or muriaticum).

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          I love how the antivaxxers say that there are no double blind placebo studies done for vaccines.

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24856782

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24533064

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23434387

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23369412

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23202523

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23032417

          This is for just the first page of results for double blind placebo controlled studies of flu vaccines. There are thirteen more pages.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I love how the antivaxxers say that there are no double blind placebo studies done for vaccines.

            Well, what do you expect? They are ignorant and just make shit up. Someone believes it and a meme is born.

            You think they’ve actually looked to the literature to see if anything has been done?

          • ciaparker2

            I looked at the first one, but it said it was between one group that got an aluminum-adjuvanted flu vaccine, and another group that got the same flu vaccine but without aluminum. That is not a true placebo, which would be only saline solution.

            “Abstract

            The clinical evaluation of the MDCK-based H1N1 pandemic influenza vaccine HNVAC in adults aged 18-65 years is reported. In the Phase I randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, single-centre study, 160 subjects were parallelly assigned 3:1 to vaccine:placebo groups (n=60:20) with both the aluminium hydroxide adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted vaccine formulations. A single dose of both the formulations containing 15 μg of haemagglutinin protein showed minimal adverse reactions, the most common of which were pain at injection site (11.67%) and fever (10.00%). Both formulations produced 74-81% seroprotection (SRP: titre of ≥40), 67-70% seroconversion (SRC: four-fold increase in titres between days 0 and 21), and a four-fold increase in geometric mean titres (GMT). Aluminium hydroxide did not have a significant effect either on immunogenicity or on reactogenicity. Nevertheless, based on its recognized positive effects on the stability and immunogenicity of many vaccines, and its marginal benefit in both pre-clinical and Phase I studies of HNVAC, alum adjuvanted HNVAC was further tested in a staggered Phase II/III randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-centre study of 200 and 195 subjects, respectively, parallelly assigned 4:1 to adjuvanted vaccine and placebo groups. In these studies, the most common adverse reactions were pain at injection site (6.88% and 5.77% in Stage 1 and Stage 2, respectively) and fever (7.50% and 7.05%, respectively), and a single dose resulted in 87-90% SRP, 85-86% SRC, and a nearly six-fold increase in GMT, meeting or exceeding licensing criteria. It is concluded that HNVAC is safe and immunogenic to adults of 18-65 years.”

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You really have no clue at all what’s going on in that study, do you?

            The study was a 4 arm study, with arms including the usual vaccine with and without adjuvant and two placebo controls, one of which contained the adjvuant, the other of which did not.

            A placebo is simply something that appears similar to the drug being given but does not contain the active drug being tested. It does not have to be salt water. It does not have to be a sugar pill. In fact, the ideal placebo contains everything that the active drug does except for the putative active ingredient (every once in a while the “inactive” ingredient turns out to be the effective part of the treatment, i.e. valproate which started as the stuff that antiepileptic drugs were dissolved in.)

            So, yes, this trial was placebo controlled in every sense of the word. It even contained the “humor the anti-vaxxers” placebo without the “toxic” adjuvant (which, incidentally, caused absolutely no toxicity in this study).

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You really have no clue at all what’s going on in that study, do you?

            How dare you question her! She has a PhD in Spanish and has done literary analysis, she knows all about clinical trials.

          • ciaparker2

            Another shill that has access to the file you keep on me. I did not say here that my Ph.D. was in Spanish. Also have a law degree. Yeah, you’d like to say that only those in the vaccine industry have the intelligence and training to understand the first thing about vaccines, so you can keep forcing them on everyone and deny the damage. Too bad, that game’s over.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Do you deny that your PhD is in Spanish?

            HINT: your thesis is available at dissertation abstracts

            Unfortunately, dropping a PhD claim around here (even legit) is not going to impress anyone. There are plenty of PhDs contributing here, so spare me.

          • ciaparker2

            Why would I deny it? The point is is that I am intelligent and skilled enough to research and learn new fields, and have done so since my daughter was severely vaccine-injured and left autistic. There are thousands of parents like me, who have seen our children react severely to vaccines and have researched the many questions involved.
            I don’t care if it impresses anyone there, I realize who you are beholden to, and whose interests you defend in everything you say.

          • Nick Sanders

            “The point is is that I am intelligent and skilled enough to research and learn new fields”
            A language PhD proves no such thing when it comes to the sciences, especially something as complicated as medicine.

            And I’m still waiting on your CV to back up these claims of “research”.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I don’t care if it impresses anyone there

            YOU were the one who brought up your PhD, not me. You can run away from it now, I don’t blame you.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I realize who you are beholden to

            …my wife and kids, of course…

          • momofone

            Knowing what you know is great, but knowing what you DON’T know is equally, if not more, important. You don’t seem to be able to make that distinction.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Another shill that has access to the file you keep on me.

            Paranoia paranoia everybody’s coming to get meeeee.

            Nobody has a file on you but everyone has access to google. Though if it makes you feel important that the lizard people or whoever are keeping tabs on you knock yourself out.

          • Cobalt

            Delusions of grandeur. So special that everyone must be paying attention to them. This is what happens when you raise your child as an “extra special snowflake”.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Don’t flatter yourself. You aren’t important enough for anyone to keep a file on you.

          • ciaparker2

            Some of the shills have admitted that there is a shill file on me. How would the shill here have known I had a Ph.D. in Spanish when I hadn’t mentioned it? It was a shill with a nym I had not encountered before, possibly someone I have interacted with on another site on a different occasion, under a different nym.

          • Amy M

            What’s he shilling?

          • Roadstergal

            “How would the shill here have known I had a Ph.D. in Spanish when I hadn’t mentioned it?”

            You do know how the Internet works?

          • Daleth

            Hmm, Cia, you didn’t list a Spanish PhD (or any other PhD) on your LinkedIn page, though you did list the law degree. Why are you claiming to have a PhD (however irrelevant to the topic it may be) on this thread?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Ok, fine, you found us out. The world is really all an illusion designed to test your strength of will. Congratulations, you’ve passed the test! Now just post your bank account number and password information here and we’ll send you all the money in the world as a reward.

          • Amazed

            Ah cia, I know some things about you. Not because you’re all that interesting but because you pop up on any site that has something to do with vaccine to grace the world with your anti-vaccine tropes. All it took is one or two people who initially got curious to know more about the Ph.D. you wave around so proudly, and thanks to your own prolific writings, many more get to know about you because, let’s face it, when you’re all over the internet, being obnoxious and everything, people are tempted to point your inadequacies and people like me see them without bothering to check.

            The moment I saw your nickname here today, I knew who we were dealing with and you did not disappoint. You were in your usual top form for spreading misinformation.

            Well, actually I lied. Each time, I expect a little more writing creativity from someone who has a degree in literature. You’re terribly boring, cia. Perhaps you should stop focusing so obsessively over what you don’t know and start paying attention to what you supposedly know? Because you don’t look like someone whose vocabulary contains more than 1 000 words. Perhaps it’s a side effect of your mania to “research” a topic you know next to nothing about, so you have to cling to what you read and repeat it word for word?

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Amazed

            Really? Funny how your time starts being worth so much when you have your ass handed to you. You certainly don’t suffer any shortage of that when you post your ridiculously long and frequent diatribes on all the sites that have anything to do with vaccines.

            You are not worth anyone’s time, cia. Don’t delude yourself. People here are just too nice to say it to you outright.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I don’t think that only those who are educated in relevant subjects can understand vaccines, but you prove over and over again that you don’t understand any of it.

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Just what sabel says when confronted with something they don’t want to deal with. Sock puppet, perhaps?

          • Fallow

            You’ve spent a ridiculously amount of time these past few days, spewing nonsense, drivel, and conspiracy theories, with people who just keep running circles around you over and over. So, let’s not pretend you place a truly high premium on your time.

          • Who?

            Oh honey. No one has a file on you, you are all over the internet like a bad rash.

          • ciaparker2

            I had this discussion with Mike a few weeks ago, in which he conceded that vaccine tests do not use a true saline placebo. The problem is that ANY of the vaccine ingredients can cause reactions, so giving some people the complete vaccine and others the complete vaccine minus one ingredient is very likely to cause side effects in many in both groups, but without a group on a true saline placebo, you wouldn’t be able to separate out the true incidence of vaccine reactions. But that’s the way they want it. Group A has three deaths in five hundred, group B has four deaths in five hundred, statistically insignificant, both vaccines declared safe. If one group had received a true placebo (saline) and had no deaths, that would draw attention to the fact that BOTH vaccines caused death.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So now it’s “any” ingredient in the vaccines that can cause an issue? Ok…but in that case, why worry about vaccines specifically? Some vaccines contain neomycin, an antibiotic. It can, like any medication, cause reactions. But why are you so obsessed with the tiny amount of neomycin in a vaccine as opposed to the larger amount in the drug? Other vaccines may contain sugar. Sugar can be dangerous, but why worry about it in a vaccine rather than in general?

            Also, in this case, groups A-D had not only no deaths but no major side effects and no difference in minor side effects between the different groups.

          • ciaparker2

            Obviously. Any injected substance becomes an antigen. If a stray molecule of plastic gets in the vaccine serum and is injected, it can start an allergy to that plastic. The body has natural filtering systems, and injecting any substance into the body is unnatural and can cause reactions.
            I would just say that all vaccines are extremely dangerous and must be taken with the utmost caution and only if you’re sure that the danger from the disease outweighs the dangers from the vaccine in your particular location and situation. No, they don’t test them for safety in any reasonable way. Everyone must be aware of that.

          • Roadstergal

            “I would just say that all vaccines are extremely dangerous and must be taken with the utmost caution ”

            I would say that Internet use and sitting in front of a screen, CRT or LCD, is very dangerous, and must only be undertaken with the utmost caution. I have no more proof of this statement than you have of yours – but precautionary principle, better pop away from the computer.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Any injected substance becomes an antigen”
            Actually not. Our immune system can only react to certain substances. It cannot and does not react to just any “stray molecule”. Many substances (such as most plastics) never provoke an immune response no matter how many times the body is exposed. As any immunologist working on vaccine development will tell you, provoking a response is simple in theory but difficult in practice.

          • ciaparker2

            Nonsense. The immune system CAN react to any substance, and will often do so when they are injected straight into the body.

          • guest

            So then be real careful next time you scrape your knee.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “The immune system CAN react to any substance, and will often do so when they are injected straight into the body.”

            Not at all. V(D)J recombination certainly allows us to respond to a vast number of different antigens, but they still need to be ANTIGENS. Most molecules have no antigenic potential at all.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Best hold your breath then. Do you have any idea how many antigens go into your body with each breath you take? Right into the lungs where they can form plenty of IgA antibodies. And meals? Whew! It doesn’t bear thinking about! Right past the tonsils, natural immune “sampling” sites, no less.

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, I do. The difference is that the body has evolved excellent filtering systems in the respiratory and digestive systems, the natural entrance route for most disease pathogens, and filters most of the potentially harmful ones out before they can access vital closed systems like the bloodstream, brain, and other vital organs. They also send out an alert to the rest of the immune system to prepare it to meet the incoming substances. Injecting them straight into the body where they are quickly absorbed into the bloodstream sets off multiple alarm systems and activates powerful immune responses which can be very damaging: excessive inflammation, especially of the brain, and sensitizes the immune system to any of the incoming substances, so that the next time they are encountered, powerful autoimmune reactions are set off.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Muscle contain excellent filtering systems.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The blood stream has an excellent “filtering system”. It’s known as the immune system. Evolution “knows” that the skin will be breeched regularly and antigens going into the muscles/blood is very, very normal. Abberant immune responses can occur no matter what route the antigen came in. As I would expect anyone who had “researched” immunity on even a superficial level to understand.

          • Roadstergal

            “The blood stream has an excellent “filtering system”. It’s known as the immune system”

            The kidneys do a great job, too. And unless you have chronic liver disease (perhaps due to not being vaccinated against Hepatitis B?), your liver’s normal functioning is the best ‘detox’ you can get.

            I was delighted, way back in my first year of college, when I first learned there were immune cells called macrophages (Big Eaters). It’s what they do.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            That is not at all the case. Only two things can cause allergies. Proteins and something small enough to enter cells.

          • yugaya

            ” If a stray molecule of plastic gets in the vaccine serum and is injected, it can start an allergy to that plastic.”

            A stray molecule of plastic? What next, serum “remembers” the unnatural plastic it came in contact with and passes memory of that plastic into the body and even though no molecules of plastic strayed there is still an allergic reaction?

            Omgomgomg.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I am pretty sure most vaccines contain water so if ANY ingredient can cause this “reaction” then even a saline placebo isn’t safe from your endless goal post moving.

          • Roadstergal

            OMG saline causes autism! No, wait, being punctured with a needle causes autism! Round up the acupuncturists!

          • LibrarianSarah

            IT IS THE AUTISM FAIRY I TELL YOU!!!! THE AUTISM FAIRY!!!

          • ciaparker2

            Possible. So have one control group who gets the true saline placebo and another control group that gets nothing, no vaccine ever in all their life, a completely unvaxed group, for purposes of comparison.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Thanks for proving that there is no absurdity to absurd for you people. Yup it is the water in vaccines that cause autism. Why should scientists spend any time or money doing any kind of study to prove to you that vaccines don’t cause autism when you are just going to find some reason to keep on believing otherwise. Why can’t you people just admit that this is now just a matter of faith for you and their is no “study” you are actually going to take seriously unless it confirms your beliefs. Your mind is already made up and there is no magic study that would change it. Just admit it and stop wasting everyone’s time.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            You do need someone who was never vaccinated for a clinical trial. That is nonsense. Plus how could you blind it?

          • Proponent
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Then Mike mislead you.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            More likely she didn’t understand what he was saying.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        And the latest in a long series of negative trials on the supposed link between autism and vaccination:
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25898051
        This one answers the vague question about the vaccine triggering autism in succeptible individuals and the answer is…no, it doesn’t. In fact, there is a trend towards a higher risk of autism in unvaccinated siblings of children with autism compared to vaccinated siblings of children with autism. In short, the MMR appears to protect against autism.

        • Nick Sanders

          Let’s not overstate it. The full text says the reduction rate was not enough to be statistically significant. Still, yet another study in the giant pile showing it doesn’t cause autism.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I agree. It’s a trend, although not quite statistically significant. Still, the p-value for those who received 2 doses or more was 0.052, which is pretty close to 0.05. That’s reasonably impressive given the relatively small number of cases involved and definitely suggestive of an effect. OTOH, that could be confounded: perhaps those who showed early signs of autism were less likely to receive the second dose, resulting in an apparent protective effect where no real effect is occurring.
            However, I’ll agree that my initial concluding statement went further than the evidence and suggest that it should say that there is a non-significant trend towards a negative correlation and no sign of a postive correlation so that the MMR at least does not increase the risk of autism and there is a suggestion, but not definitive proof, of a protective effect.

  • Wren

    Sabelmouse,

    Since you have repeatedly avoided this question, I thought I’d ask once more in a spot that might be easier to find.

    You claimed to know me, more than once. Do you still claim to do so?

    If so, prove it.

    If not, why on earth should anyone believe your other claims to know people here? And claims of being stalked from site to site?

  • Great comment. 🙂

  • perpetual lurker

    Wow. I haven’t seen a Gish gallop like the one Chris just put forward in quite a while. Really something to behold. More power to all of you for continuing to play whack-a-mole with these zombie anti-vax memes. Exhausting though.

    • Who?

      Yes Chris has a little something for everyone. It’s fun to stay in shape. One day one of them will come up with something original and I’ll fall off my chair.

      • yugaya

        Dream on. :)))

      • D/

        Some giggle (and growl) inducing potential from the “birth professionals” today too …

        “I am a totally unvaccinated doula and childbirth educator and am in the final stages of getting into uni to train as a midwife.
        I have just found out that in order to train I need to be FULLY immunized!
        Is there any way around this or do I need to give up my dream of becoming a midwife?”

        Can you claim your religious beliefs?
        -OP’s response: What religion do I need to be? I was brought up Quaker … I’ll look into it.

        Most vaccines contain some type of animal product if I recall so you could also say you are vegan.

        If you can’t find a way around and do get the shots. You can try activated charcoal on the jab site. It’s said to draw all the stuff out … (make a paste with activated charcoal and water and apply to the jab site).

        Would they accept homeopathic vaccines?
        -US Newborn Care Specialist (aka “Baby Nurse”) comment: You may want to consider homeopathic vaccines. That is the only kind I do.

        UK doula comment: I would lie or just ignore them.

        Get a “relaxed” doctor to sign a paper you had them.
        -UK Doctor of Chiropractic comment: Speak to Dr Jayne Donegan and get her to sign you off.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          OMG. Do you have a link to this?

          • D/

            The original public fb post was on the Arnica- UK Parents’ Support Network page yesterday afternoon.

            http://on.fb.me/1JO6W8y

        • Roadstergal

          Here’s a great idea. If you’re scared of vaccines, why don’t you stay the hell away from babies and pregnant women.

          • D/

            Yeah you’d think, but when the link was pulled over to a birth professional forum by a midwife to share her “shock” over required vaccinations this single response: “What do you find shocking? That the NHS would require people working with vulnerable individuals to be vaccinated? Because that sounds very reasonable to me.”

            was labeled as bullying, and required vaccination was presented as a breech of the human right to choose and the death of autonomous practice within midwifery.

            Oh and along with …”pregnant women are not vulnerable they are bloomingly healthy” … and “newborns are strong” …

          • Roadstergal

            Ugh.

          • Katia

            Anti-vaxers are constantly accusing pro-vaxers of “bullying” and simply “being mean” when the pro-vaxers present facts. It’s too much for them. OTOH, it’s OK for the antis to call the pros “shills”, “baby killers”, “sheeple”, and even compare them to Nazis. Such hypocrisy!

          • D/

            Funny you’d mention a Nazi connection. As we speak that forum is in the midst of a comparison of the Holocaust to vaccination requirements for healthcare workers.

          • Katia

            Oh, I’m well aware of that! I’ve also heard vaxers compared to the KKK.

          • Nick Sanders

            Further down this page we’re being called fascists.

          • ciaparker2

            Why don’t mothers keep young babies at home, away from the danger of contracting germs from the multitudes out in public? The buck stops with the individual family.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because baby or no baby, life goes on, and most people do not have the funds to never leave the house for 6 months.

          • sabelmouse

            i agree though some people might really not have the option, the way society has been arranged.

          • Roadstergal

            As that was a midwife in training that I was referring to – hey, if you’re in favor of parents keeping their babies the hell away from woo midwives, I’m all over it. Medwives and OBs who understand science only.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Aren’t vaccines innately “homeopathic” in the sense that they’re formed from weakened and diluted amounts of pathogens? Ok, so the dilution isn’t up to the usual homeopath “standard” of being less than one molecule per dose, but they’re definitely not highly concentrated or large volume.

          • Wren

            No.

            They aren’t large volume but they aren’t homepathic.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Hmm…I suppose that they’re not really properly homeopathic but I’ve seen things being sold as “homeopathic” that have clinically significant amounts of the active ingredient in them (I think it was zinc lozenges for colds) so the definition appears to be flexible. And isn’t preventing the disease not just “treating the symptoms” what the alties claim that they want?

          • Wren

            I can see using the argument in hopes of convincing anti-vaxers to vaccinate, but I hate to use incorrect terms just because someone else has.

          • Katia

            My immunization friends and I have long said immunizations are SIMILAR to homeopathy in the sense of the homeo priciple: “like cures like”.

          • Sue

            I suspect hahnemann came up with the principle because, in the nineteenth century, so many diseases were infective and there were no antibiotics. Of course, he got the overall prinicple wrong.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, he came up with it because he overdosed on quinine and thought the symptoms mimicked malaria symptoms.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Actually, he came up with it because he overdosed on quinine

            That’s a lot of gin and tonic.

          • Roadstergal

            It did take hold because in the days of ‘heroic’ medicine, which wasn’t science- or evidence-based, doing nothing was often more effective than ‘treating’ the patient.

            These days, we have a much better idea of what works.

            I remember once finding a quote from a famous nurse – I seem to recall it was Florence Nightengale or Clara Barton? – who recommended that nurses use homeopathy – because they didn’t have enough training to properly prescribe medications, and would do little harm giving out magic water as well as support.

          • Nick Sanders

            The difference between vaccinations and homeopathy:
            Vaccines are showing bank tellers some mugshots of wanted bank robbers so they can sound the alarm before getting robbed.
            Homeopathy is sending a gnome with a gun into a bank robbery in progress because “a bank can’t be robbed twice at the same time”.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Dude, you are one warped guy.

          • Nick Sanders

            Thank you.

          • Roadstergal

            Don’t ever stop. That analogy made my day.

          • ciaparker2

            Homeopathy is giving guns to the bank tellers with instructions on how to use them.

          • Nick Sanders

            Only if the guns are microscopic plastic replicas.

          • D/

            Must be diluted into memories … so maybe just holographic, microscopic, plastic replicas? 😉

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Homeopathy is teaching bank tellers to point their fingers and say “bang” and pretending that you’ve given them guns.

            Incidentally, giving bank tellers guns would be a very bad idea. Guns aren’t a defensive weapon. How is a gun going to help you if someone is already pointing their gun at you? It just gives them something else to steal.

          • ciaparker2

            We want our immune systems to kill the invading pathogens. And if I were a bank teller in a bank being robbed at gunpoint, I would be very happy to kill the robbers, and homeopathic remedies allow us to do so.

          • Nick Sanders

            Homeopathic remedies do nothing.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Oh, get real. Homeopathic “treatments” are diluted to the point that they’re nothing but expensive water or expensive filler in the case of pills. What can they possibly do to protect you against anything?

            And you might be willing to kill the robber, but s/he is holding a gun on you, not the other way around. How is your having a gun–somewhere, that you’re not pointing at him/her–going to help? Not at all. It’s just something else for him/her to steal.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Homeopathy is teaching bank tellers to point their fingers and say “bang” and pretending that you’ve given them guns.

            AWESOME!

          • D/

            But, but vaccines contain extras … actual pathogens, soil fertilizer, animal blood, brains and kidneys, formaldehyde, aborted fetal tissues and ANTIFREEZE … that is INJECTED.

            Per link provided by that “Baby Nurse” on how homeopathic vaccines actually work:
            http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/

            Or for a positive and poetic explanation:
            Homeoprophylaxis contains only disease memories to educate immune systems gently and safely.
            http://freeandhealthychildren.com/tag/what-is-a-nosode/

          • yugaya

            “contains disease memories”

            You. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.

          • Roadstergal

            Homeopathic vaccines are fully effective against homeopathic diseases. Unfortunately, in the real world, pathogens are not always diluted into nonexistence.

          • Cobalt

            I see your point: using a tiny amount of an altered form of something dangerous to convey benefits sounds a lot like homeopathy.

            But vaccines get excluded because they actually work in a measurable way. If science can explain it, then the sparkles have fallen out and it’s not cool and edgy and “other” anymore.

          • ciaparker2

            Vaccines have live or weakened disease pathogens, as well as preservatives and adjuvants, detergents, antibiotics, and remnants of foreign proteins, highly antigenic. They are designed to irritate the immune system into reacting with inflammation, and adjuvants are supposed to keep provoking inflammation for as many years as possible, to keep causing the production of antibodies. This inflammation can often become excessive, causing encephalitic brain damage and other kinds of damage, and sensitize the immune system to the vaccine antigens, which can be any of the vaccine ingredients, not just the targeted disease pathogens, and create any kind of autoimmune disease. Homeopathic remedies cause none of these dangerous reactions.

          • Nick Sanders
          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Not exactly. Adjuvants are there to make the protein more immunogenic in the immediate term, not to “provoke inflammation for as many years as possible.” The adjuvants are cleared by the body pretty quickly. How could they even provoke a response years later? That’s what the memory cells are for. Inflammation can become excessive. That’s the danger of strengthening the immune system, you know: it can get out of control. This is an issue with natural infection far more often than with vaccination, but it can be an issue with vaccination, which is why vaccination is not recommended for certain people, most notably those with a history of reactions to the ingredients in the vaccine. “Real” homeopathy has no real risks because it has no real ingredients. It is simply a placebo. It has, of course, no real benefits either.

          • Roadstergal

            “adjuvants are supposed to keep provoking inflammation for as many years as possible, to keep causing the production of antibodies”

            You really haven’t a clue how vaccination and immune memory work.

          • ciaparker2

            Aluminum, for example, is considered an excellent adjuvant because it remains in the body indefinitely, continuing to make the immune system notice the killed pathogens of the vaccine so that it will continue to crank out antibodies for as long as the aluminum fulfills this functions. But constant, permanent provocation of an inflammatory response definitely presents dangers and reactions in many people who have received it in an injection. But that’s what adjuvants do: one, stretch the vaccine serum to make a little go a long way, to save money on serum, and two, to continue to draw the immune system’s attention to the injected killed pathogens.

          • Roadstergal

            You really haven’t a clue how vaccination and immune memory work.

            And you have no idea what ‘serum’ means.

          • Dr Kitty

            “Often” cause encephalitic brain damage? How often is “often”?
            Because it’s recognised as an extremely rare event.

            Homeopathic vaccines cause no immune response at all, because they are water. Which is why they don’t actually work to prevent disease.

            It is amazing the breadth of your ignorance.

          • ciaparker2

            Autism now in one in 36 American children (U of Minnesota 2013). Autism is the result of encephalitic vaccine damage. Not rare at all. it was rare before the vaccine epidemic began around 1990, but now is quite common. Unfortunately, parents still are rarely warned that if a baby screams for more than three hours in the weeks after a vaccine, that is a sign of vaccine encephalitis: also staring episodes (petit mal seizures) and excessive somnolence. No one has ever tried to ascertain how often these events follow vaccination, and how often they are later diagnosed as neurological damage (autism, ADHD, learning and behavior disorders, or seizure disorders).

            Homeopathy has worked amazingly for us. When I am reeling and holding onto things in order to walk during an attack of MS, I take homeopathic aurum muriaticum and cocculus indicus, and it soon stops the dizziness and nausea. I will not trouble myself to return the insult of someone as worthless as yourself.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            1. The MMR, which is everyone’s go to for Scary Vaccine That Causes Autism has been around since at least the 1960s-70s. 2. There is no real evidence of a true increase in autism in the past 2-3 decades. It’s mostly due to increased awareness and diagnostic substitution, as the links above make clear. 3. Homeopathy has been proven to be completely ineffective, which is no surprise since there is no biologically plausible mechanism by which it could be active. If you believe it works for you, that just demonstrates how gullible you are.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Homeopathy has worked amazingly for us.”

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1hmDYnbasI

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Adjuvants are to increase the immune response in same cases and make sure there is an immune response in others. It is very short lived. Just a couple of days.

    • Chris

      Thank you. I am honored. Ha Ha.

      • Marilyn Lachey

        The latest and newest buzz word …”Gish gallop” they’re all using it these days. I saw it first about a month ago used by ummm nurse katia, and then saw it being used regularly by all the shills.

        • Wren

          Latest buzzword?

          Honestly, I’ve heard it for years. Do you know what it means and where it originates from?

          It’s not even a little surprising that many pro-vaxers would use it as most are also pro-science and therefore also believe in evolution. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the evolution vs creationism debates will be familiar with the Gish gallop.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Honestly, I’ve heard it for years. Do you know what it means and where it originates from?

            I remember hearing about it back in the late 80s reading the journal “Creation/Evolution”

            That was the time that Gish was pretty active

          • Roadstergal

            After watching the Panorama documentary on Scientology, and the clips of Tommy Davis verbally battering people, I saw a parallel to alt-med Gish Galloping. Bury the ‘opponent’ in noise.

          • LibrarianSarah

            She would come and explain more about this “latest buzzword” but she busy trying to learn this new dance called “The Electric Slide.” I doubt you heard of it.

        • Nick Sanders
  • Diet dee
    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      RFK Jr is an anti-vax loon, with no medical or toxicology training.

      • Who?

        Amen to that.

    • Nick Sanders

      Oh look, Dr. Hooker and his discredited claims regarding William Thompson. Joined by Dr. Bob “Vaccines work but be afraid of them anyway” Sears. Such a trustworthy panel.

      • Who?

        Sears is backpedalling like crazy. It must be hard for him-the mainstream on the whole will probably never trust him after his outrageous behaviour, and if he loses his provax buddies he’ll have to eat lunch by himself forever.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Why would anyone want to rot their brain by watching this nonsense? Kennedy thinks MMR has trace amounts of thimerosal. Why would anyone listen to another word he said after that?

      • Tiny Hands

        Maybe it has a memory of thimerosal.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          A memory from what? You cannot not use an antiseptic in a live virus vaccine. It would then be a killed virus vaccine

          • Tiny Hands

            Yeah, but if it’s a homeopathic vaccine, then it won’t have a biologically active concentration of thimerosal. The attenuated virus would just… be scared of it, I guess? I’m a little fuzzy on how that’s supposed to work.

      • Diet dee

        I agree it generally nonsense until someone you know gets affected then things start making sense

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Affected by what?

          And if you know someone who “gets affected” suddenly basic facts don’t apply? Like RFK’s nonsense about vaccines containing thimerasol?

          What is it about knowing someone “affected” that makes your brain fall out?

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, if it makes nonsense make sense, I’m guessing a sharp blow to the head.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Vinny Gambini: Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than on any place on the face of the earth?

            Mr. Tipton: I don’t know.

            Vinny Gambini: Well, perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist on your stove. Were these magic grits? I mean, did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No one anyone knows has ever been affected.

          • Detroit Dee’s comment reminds me of something I read the other day:

            “Cognitively, it is much easier for people to accept a given piece of information than to evaluate its truthfulness. This stacks the deck in favor of accepting misinformation rather than properly rejecting it. When people do take the time to thoughtfully evaluate the truth of information, they tend to focus on only a few of its characteristics: Is the new information consistent with other things they believe to be true? Does it “make sense”? Does the information come from a credible source? People also look to others to help them validate information, which means the more widespread a piece of misinformation, the harder it becomes to debunk it.”

            http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/journals/pspi/misinformation1.html

          • PROvax
          • ProV1x

            i love how mike davis tries to cover his ass with a fake profiles like Randi Savage, and an article written by him. You weasels couldn’t come up with a better name then that? Im surprised, I would have thought a pro wresling career would have been enough.. Just a desperate attempt to stop an inevitable trainwreck. useless

        • Daleth

          Dietdee, MMR does not have any thimerosal in it. Something like 15 years ago it was reformulated–as were ALL the childhood vaccines, in the US at least–and stopped using thimerosal. I’m guessing that’s what Sullivan was talking about.

          • Roadstergal

            What irritates me is that there was never anything harmful about thimerosal. Taking it out was throwing a bone to the anti-vax brigade – which of course did not placate them in the least (as we can see, most of them aren’t even aware that it was done), and hurts people in developing world without reliable refrigeration, who still need a safe preservative.

          • Nick Sanders

            If anything it encouraged them.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            The MMR never had thimerosal in it.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          The MMR is a live vaccine. Timerosal is an antibacterial used in reusable vials of killed virus vaccines. There can’t be thimerosal in the MMR. And if there is, it’s a scandal but not for the reason you’re claiming: it would make the vaccine ineffective.

          • Diet dee

            I believe that most vaccines have aluminum as an adjuvant. The aluminum is just as problematic as the mercury

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The aluminum is just as problematic as the mercury

            Well, technically yeah, but that’s because neither are problematic. But to equate aluminium with mercury is pretty clueless.

            Next desperate plea?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Ah, the sound of goalposts scrambling to get to a safe location outside the data zone. How is aluminum problematic? What is the evidence that it has any adverse effects? Is it even in the MMR? (Hint: the answer to the last is “no”.)

          • Nick Sanders

            So, you’re saying it’s not problematic at all?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Why? Why is it problematic? You realize that Aluminum is one of the most ubiquitous elements on earth?

          • Amazed

            You must share your secret. How do you protect yourself against one of the most common metals in the planet?

            Poor old aluminium. The great mass murderer. I actually cook in such a pot. The only problem I have is that it must have turned me on the pro-science/anti-loon side.

          • Diet dee

            I don’t mainline aluminum hydroxide. Most people can handle the ingestion of aluminum.( the absorption rate is very low less than 1%. Inject aluminum into an infant and its Russian roulette.
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0162013409001809
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCzdliixnmI

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Live virus vaccines do not need an adjuvant so there are not aluminum salts either. Also, aluminum salts have the Same toxicity as table salt and lower toxicity than vinegar.

          • Wren

            Oh, I think I know the anti-vax response to this one:

            “but vinegar isn’t injected directly into the bloodstream!”

            and “I would never give my baby salt either”.

          • Katia

            Well, yes. But it all gets in the blood stream, whether ingested or injected.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            If you inject a vaccine directly in the blood stream you’ve done it wrong. They’re supposed to be IM or SQ.

          • Roadstergal

            You inject it IM to get DCs to take it up and present it. Sorry about the achey arm.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Isn’t the rabies vaccine subcutaneous? Or maybe the old one was? Or maybe I’m confused altogether. None of them are IV anyway.

          • Cobalt

            Rabies vaccine and immunoglobulin are both IM, at least in humans.

          • Wren

            I know that, but anti vaxers constantly claim they are injected directly into the bloodstream.

  • Chris

    The logic is that it is not ethical to do double blind experiments with vaccines to test for safety, but it is ethical to mandate injection of infants and children with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, aborted human fetal DNA contaminants, and new combinations of different viruses and all of the aforementioned with increased frequency, all without any previous human testing or knowledge of possible long term side effects.

    This is a violation of the scientific precautionary principle. It is unethical, illogical, irrational, and a recipe for disaster.

    • Nick Sanders

      No, unethical is lying about vaccine components like you just did.

      • Chris

        True or False?

        Many vaccines have had in the past or do currently contain neurotoxins. True.

        Many vaccines have had in the past or do currently contain ingredients classified as carcinogens. True.

        Many vaccines have had in the past or do currently contain viral contaminants. True.

        Many vaccines have had, or do contain aborted human fetal DNA contaminants, form the human diploid cell manufacturing process. True.

        These are all well known TRUE scientific facts. These are all being injected into infants and children.

        • Cobalt

          Neurotoxins? Carcinogens? Viral contaminants? Human DNA?

          There’s more of those in breastmilk than in vaccines.

          • sdsures

            Chris is starting to sound like a member of the Green Party (elections are coming up here in the UK).

          • Diet dee

            Would rather drink breast milk or have it injected into muscles.
            Hint one of these things the human body was not designed to deal with

          • Nick Sanders

            How big an injection are we talking? And what are the upsides?

            The human body also wasn’t designed to sit in a metal tube and hurtle through the air at roughly 560 miles per hour, either, but that seems to work out pretty well.

          • Diet dee

            Lets say an ounce of human breast milk. Upside to drinking tastes good, antibodies and such Upside to injecting breast milk in muscle “Cool youtube clip”

          • Nick Sanders

            An ounce? Holy shit, that’s a big injection.

            No thanks, I think I’ll stick to my 0.5 to 2 ml vaccines, which have the upside of “protection from nasty diseases”.

          • Chris

            So there is aborted human fetal DNA from a fetus infected with rotavirus in breastmilk?

          • Cobalt

            Not likely in the breastmilk, but it’s definitely not in vaccines.

          • Chris

            Any vaccine manufactured using human diploid cells has the potential to be contaminated with aborted human fetal DNA. Just as many vaccines that used monkey kidneys in the manufacturing process have been contaminated with monkey viruses.

          • KarenJJ

            And you’re not worried about what viruses and bacteria bring and the sort of toxins they can spread in the body?

          • Chris

            Why worry when there are up to 200 trillion bacteria and viruses in each and every one of our bodies at all times. We are all filled with more bacteria and viruses than we have cells in our bodies. The important thing is to have a strong immune system though healthy living.

          • KarenJJ

            The healthy immune system thing is also determined by genetics and some of us didn’t get as lucky as others did. My immune system is ‘over-charged’ – constantly switched ‘on’ – due to an inherited genetic defect in one of my genes. The sort of “boosted” immune system health nuts could only dream of and it’s done countless damage to my body.

            Secondly, everyday bacteria and viruses are not the problem. But what toxins are released by bacteria such as tetanus, strep throat, golden staph? What do they do to you? How can they damage you? One of my kids had scarlet fever last year. The bacteria released toxins that caused her skin to peel off all over her torso. You think nature is benign?

          • Chris

            True. Nature is miraculous but is sometimes merciless.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Any vaccine manufactured using human diploid cells has the potential to be contaminated with aborted human fetal DNA.”

            And?

          • Chris

            Vaccines are still contaminated today as they have been contaminated in the past, but feel free to continue injecting yourself with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants that are sometimes dangerous viruses, and human aborted fetal CNA contaminants that have not been properly tested in humans for long term safety.

          • Who?

            So do you particularly object to the fact that the human cells to which you refer are from aborted foetuses?

          • Chris

            According to Dr. Theresa Deisher – in this video, there is solid scientific evidence that the use of human aborted fetal manufactured vaccines has a strong linear correlation to autism and other autoimmune disorders.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=188&v=6Bc6WX33SuE

          • Who?

            But there is no relationship between vaccines and autism.

            Rates of vaccine and rates of autism diagnosis have both increased over the last decade or so. The uptake of SUVs as family vehicles, and the consumption of organic food, have also increased in that time.

            How much did the people who went to listen to Dr D pay for their seats?

          • Wren

            Define these terms:

            Correlation
            Causation

            Now tell me again why you choose to believe vaccinations cause autism, as opposed to the many other changes over time (including the broadening definition and increased surveillance for autism spectrum).

          • Nick Sanders

            You sure love to copy and paste your phrases. But repeating yourself still doesn’t actual explain why I should be so scared of “human aborted fetal DNA”, even it actually is present, which you have not proven.

          • Wren

            Does it matter that it is aborted fetal DNA? Why?

            Breastmilk is pretty darned likely to contain human DNA, and in far higher doses than vaccines.

            Oh no! Babies are being fed human DNA! They are cannibals!!!

          • Wren

            Thinking about it, it’s worse than I thought. I often make my children sandwiches or cut up some previously washed fresh fruit or vegetables for them.

            I do not wear gloves!

            My children, despite being well past breastfeeding, are still likely ingesting my DNA on a regular basis.

            And I don’t wear gloves while giving my cats treat and have even been licked by them a couple of times! That’s human DNA being ingested by a cat! It must be terrible!

            Worst of all, I have not wrapped either of my children in bubble wrap. One was scratched by one of our cats yesterday and the other played a football match and skinned her knee on the grass. DNA likely made it through the skin, foreign DNA! My son will suffer terribly from the introduction of cat DNA and who knows what grass DNA will do to my daughter!

          • Who?

            You are a monster, Wren. I suppose you even make those poor children have vaccinations!

            How can you live with yourself, knowing that Chris and the anti-vaxx zombies know all the secrets and can therefore judge you seven ways to Sunday for things you can’t even find out and they won’t tell you?

          • Chris

            So there is Pig Viruses and Monkey Viruses, like SV40 cancer virus in and “wasting” virus in human mothers breastmilk?

          • Nick Sanders

            SV40? An incident from [i]50 years ago[/i] is the best you’ve got?

            Also, breast milk can indeed carry all sorts of things:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11795036

          • Chris

            As many as 100 million people were vaccinated with the SV40 contaminated vaccines in the past.
            Viral contamination and Aborted Human Fetal DNA contamination is still happening today in probably millions of vaccines.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Viral contamination and Aborted Human Fetal DNA contamination is still happening today in probably millions of vaccines.”
            Prove it.

          • Chris

            Prove it is not happening. The burden of proof is on the person selling the vaccine.

          • Who?

            No, proof is on the party making the assertion. You assert they are there, prove it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Actually, the burden of proof is on the person making the novel claim. Vaccines passed testing to demonstrate their safety before being put on the market. If, as you claim, they shouldn’t have passed, it is now up to you to show why not.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No one here is selling the vaccine. Also, proving a negative?

          • Chris

            Several of you on this site are “selling” the readers on the benefits and wonders of vaccines, while downplaying or in some cases outright lying about the risks of vaccines.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            So, you are confused about this too? I think you might be a lost cause

          • Nick Sanders

            Unlike the people telling you vaccines are bad, who have actual stores where they offer “supplements” and other garbage designed to replace vaccines, we don’t stand to make any financial gain from what we tell you. Comparing what we say to the literal sales pitches of people like Mercola, et al. is at best naive and at worst heavily disingenuous.

          • Chris

            I think the Billions made by the big pharmaceutical companies can and do buy a lot more conflict of interest than a small time vitamin seller. Ha Ha.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Chris

            You mentioned Mercola’s name. How many billions is Mercola making? I did not see him on the Forbes list, so probably no billions., While the other “M” name Merck is not only making billions of dollars and buying lots of politicians, doctors, researchers, and media friends (billions in advertising dollars), but they also paid out almost a billion dollars just in their Vioxx fraud settlement.

          • Wren

            Are you that innumerate?

            You are seriously comparing a multinational corporation to an individual, or at most a small business and claiming one making more than the other is somehow meaningful? Your average Merck employee isn’t making anything close to what Mercola makes.

          • Nick Sanders

            You conveniently leave out that Mercola is an individual, while Merck is a company of roughly 76,000 people. One that plows much of those billions back into R&D rather than just taking them as direct profits. I know which “M” I trust.

          • Chris

            The fact that you trust “Merck” speaks volumes.

          • Nick Sanders

            One has put out more new drugs than anyone else, the other has been continually told by the FDA to stop lying, yet refused to comply.

          • Chris

            Merck has a long track record of fraud and death. The fact that you “trust” and are cheerleading for them tells me what kind of character you have, or don’t have.

          • Nick Sanders

            Please, point out this “long track record” of fraud. I’d love to see a rapsheet longer than Mercola’s.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            And how did Merck get caught? Researchers examining Vioxx for a potential secondary indication noted that the toxicity that Merck suppressed in their initial presentation of the drug. These researchers–in a trial SPONSORED BY MERCK–published the information and this led the FDA to investigate and withdraw approval for the drug. Note the absence of any involvement of “alternative medicine” advocates in this process.

          • Love it!

            Refutations to Anti-Vaccine Memes
            https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM

          • Wren

            As you are conflating all pharmaceutical companies, shouldn’t you also conflate all of those who sell supplements, treatments for false vaccine damage (such as autism), etc.?

            What is the supplement market worth nowadays, with far less cost for development?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            SV40 was back when people barely knew how to grow viruses. The aseptic technique was in its infancy. Bringing it up is dishonest.

          • Chris

            Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. I guess you prefer to keep the skeletons, of which there are many in the history of vaccines, hidden in the closet.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            And those who do not know immunology and statistics are doomed to make stupid claims about vaccines.

            You still haven’t explained how vaccines work, which suggests to me that you don’t know how they work, which means that what you have to say on the topic is utterly worthless.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            We know history and have different purification methods now. You would not even know about SV40 if it wasn’t for the scientists making the vaccine who found it. No one is trying to hide anything. It is just not relevant today.

        • Fallow

          You just hold tight to that precious parade of horribles. It seems like it means a lot to your self-concept.

        • sdsures

          You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

        • Nick Sanders

          Neurotoxins such as? And in what dosage? Same with carcinogens.

          And I’d love to see the evidence that contamination is the norm.

          • Chris

            So in other words, yes, vaccines as a group have or do contain neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, and human aborted fetal DNA contamination, which is then injected into children.

          • Nick Sanders

            Me asking you to back up your claims is in no way the same thing as “in other words” confirming your claims.

          • yugaya

            “neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, and human aborted fetal DNA contamination”

            They always forget the bacterial copses, that’s my favourite part of any vaccine! Yummy!!!!!!!

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Have you eaten a pear lately???? It has a lot of formaldehyde, a very well known carcinogen, is covered in bacterias and viruses and I bet there is some human DNA… At least from the person that picked it up from the tree…

        • Box of Salt

          Chris “Many vaccines…True.”

          Only if you redefine the word “many” as “more than one instance.”

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          False, false, false, false, and false. You are wrong about everything. A misunderstanding of toxicology and chemistry is all you have.

          • yugaya

            “These are all well known TRUE scientific facts.”

            When they type the word “true” in capital letters like that, does that mean that the scientific facts they are talking about are bigger or something?

          • Chris

            Now you are just flat out lying. You know that many vaccines have and do contain neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, and human aborted fetal DNA contaminants. Others are at least honest enough to admit it.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            There are no neurotoxins in vaccines because the dose makes the poison. There are not carcinogens. Viral contamination is taken very seriously and is not the problem it used to be. Fetal DNA is only considered a contaminant if it is over a certain amount. If a vaccine was found to contain over that amount then it would be recalled. So, you are confused and you are lying.

        • Wren

          True or false?

          Dosage matters.

          Once you can answer this one, we can then discuss your true or false claims.

          • Chris

            Yes dosage matters, which is why we should not be injecting our children with ANY neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, or human aborted fetal DNA contamination, when there are already far too many toxins in the environment already putting a strain on our immune systems, especially without proper long term testing prior to vaccinating those substances.

          • Wren

            Dosage matters therefore any at all is too much?

            You might want to rethink that. Pretty much anything can be toxic at the right dose.

            Water can be toxic, so avoid giving it to children at all until proper, long term testing can be done.

            Saline, which you claim is the gold standard to test against, is also toxic at the right dose.

            Oh no! You must want children to die if you are suggesting testing all vaccines against a saline injection, when saline is known to be toxic!

    • Stacy48918

      “Long term side effects”?
      You know vaccines have been in use for GENERATIONS, right?

      • Chris

        You do know that they are always changing vaccine ingredients, changing manufacturing methods, introducing NEW vaccines, trying new combinations of multiple virus strains that have never had long term testing for side effects in humans, let alone infants and children, right?

      • sabelmouse

        a drop in time. and most have not actually been around very long. meanwhile negative effects are being ignored/denied.
        long term side effects are of course also disruption of the mother/child protection cycle leading to more infants being infected.

        • Zen

          Antibiotics have been around for “a drop in time”, by your logic. Guess you get to die an all-natural death should you succumb to a serious infection at some point in your life. Have fun with that.

          • sabelmouse

            antibiotics are used when someone is ill/injured, or should be. then we might not have resistance now.
            we also know that they work.
            and i nearly did die from blood poisoning some years ago when i was given only antibiotics instead of proper wound treatment. i have since learned a lot about wound treatment and have avoided a similar situation that way without needing antibiotics.
            which are of course barely even working at this point, due to irresponsible over prescribing/prescribing for virus infections. yay, doctors, hallowed be their name ectr and so on.

          • Zen

            We also know that vaccines work. And they have far fewer and rarer adverse effects associated with their use than antibiotics. So what’s your point?

          • sabelmouse

            do we? i don’t, not even remotely.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Actually, there’s never been a double blind placebo controlled trial on penicillin.

          • sabelmouse

            that’s not great but not the same as using untested products on healthy people as prevention for something that might not hurt them anyway.
            at least when you get antibiotics you need them, or should, after all they’ve been prescribed unnecessarily and for things that they don’t work for countless times.
            ah, modern medicine, and highly educated and responsible, and highly ethical medical professionals in whom we trust. at our peril.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            untested products on healthy people as prevention for something that might not hurt them anyway.

            You mean like megadose vitamins? I must agree: that’s not a safe or ethical thing to do.

        • yugaya

          “disruption of the mother/child protection cycle”

          That’s easily avoided, just breastfeed and cosleep until they are 18 and they will be perfectly immune to any disruptions of that sacred cycle!!!

          (I think I just mentally vomited while I typed that but that’s only slightly augmented latest crunchy parenting memes floating around)

          • sabelmouse

            no dear, 2 years will suffice. but you are obviously an

          • yugaya

            …what?

    • SporkParade

      Nobody’s mandating you vaccinate your children. They just want to mandate that you keep your unvaccinated children away from us. Because willingly allowing your child to become a vector for preventable diseases that have killed millions upon millions of people is unethical.

      • Who?

        Yes-what are those side effects? Not needing calipers or an iron lung; not being blind or deaf from measles, not being infertile from mumps. Not dying from diptheria or tetanus.

        Shocking.

        • SporkParade

          One day, someone will explain to me how the 0% chance of getting autism from vaccines is scarier than the rather high chance of neurological damage from vaccine-preventable diseases.

          • Wren

            You have to start by believing autism is almost the most terrible thing that could happen, that it is your perfect child suddenly changing to a soulless being, or something similar.

            Secondly, you have to have a firm belief that nothing bad could ever happen to you or your children. Because of this, the diseases could never permanently harm your children and will be little worse than a cold, and that only to allow you a few mommy martyr points.

            I have honestly seen this in some cases.

            In most cases, it is probably related to the fact that the vaccine is something done deliberately to the child at the parent’s request or at minimum with parental consent while diseases are something from outside of the parent’s control. The former causing a problem is like the parent themselves causing it, while the latter is just chance or fate. Of course, believing vaccines caused autism in one’s own child allows the parent to place blame somewhere and feeling guilt over agreeing to a common medical treatment is likely easier than feeling like it was their own poor genetics or something else about the parent that caused it.

          • Who?

            I suspect that believing that vaccines cause autism automatically means you don’t believe that VPDs can cause physical or neurological damage or death.

          • Nick Sanders

            After that, maybe they’ll explain to me how autism is scarier than death.

      • Chris

        I guess you did not know that those recently vaccinated with live virus spread or transmit those viruses to others around them for weeks and sometimes months. This is well known in medical circles, which is why they tell chemo patients and the immune compromised to stay away from the recently vaccinated.

        That means that the hundreds of millions of people around the world who have been or are recently vaccinated with live virus are disease vectors putting the immune compromised, chemo patients, the unvaccinated, and those whose vaccine immunity has waned, in danger from the same virus they were injected with or from mutations of those same viruses. That is unethical.

        If anything, you should be keeping your children and yourself away from any person newly vaccinated with live virus. They are far more dangerous to you than an unvaccinated person who may actually have lifelong natural immunity to a disease.

        Inform yourself on this: http://www.nvic.org/vaccine-strain-virus-shedding-and-transmission.aspx

        • SporkParade

          I am well aware of the information in medical circles. The live vaccine thing was always based on an abundance of caution, not on any known cases of a vaccinated person spreading the disease. Because when everyone who CAN be vaccinated IS vaccinated, the people who come into regular contact with the immunocompromised are protected by herd immunity and not sufficient in number to erode herd immunity. Whereas we know with full certainty that a person who is infected by these diseases will pass them along.

        • Nick Sanders

          And people who catch the full blown disease aren’t contagious?

          • Chris

            Again, you do not dispute that those millions recently vaccinated with live virus, shed or transmit viruses to others, and are a danger to the immune compromised. Thank you.

          • Nick Sanders

            And? They’re less of a danger to themselves or others than those who actually catch the disease.

            Nothing in life is without risk, but some things are riskier than others. And some things have better returns on the risks.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Chris, could you please explain to us exactly how vaccines work? If you don’t understand how they work, there really isn’t much to discuss.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The rubella component of MMR is the only one that sheds whole attenuated virus and no one has been infected that way. Rotavirus can shed in feces and that feces should be avoided by severely immune compromised people. LAIV flu mist can cause a severely immune compromised person to get a flu like illness, but the attenuated virus cannot replicate at body temperature so it is more like a cold. After varicella vaccination if you get any pox touching those pox can infect a susceptible person. That’s it. It is not the problem you are pretending it is

          • yugaya

            Only malnourished individuals in Third World countries catch infectious diseases, dontcha know? 🙂

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          When did you have your bone marrow transplant? Why did your not take your ARVs and let yourself get full blown AIDS? Why do you play with other people’s feces?

        • Montserrat Blanco

          Actually oncologists do not tell that to our patients. We tell them to do not be around unvaccinated people but we tell them that vaccinated children are OK. You should probably talk to an oncologist and find out that. I have been around patients with inmunosupresion after receiving the flu vaccine every single year. The public health specialists at all the hospitals I have worked so far recommend the flu vaccine to all the doctors but they do not prevent you from being in contact with inmunosupressed patients.

          • Chris

            Since there have been documented cases of people contracting diseases from the newly vaccinated who were shedding viruses, some doctors do warn their chemo and other immune compromised patients.

          • Nick Sanders

            Show us the documentation.

          • Chris

            If you care enough about children or yourself you will do your own research as I have done.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            I care enough to follow actual research and the consensus of those who have dedicated far more years than you or I to the study of immunology and vaccines. This is why I do vaccinate my children, my pets and myself.

          • Chris

            Keep experimenting with your children if you like but I care enough to follow the research and consensus of those who have dedicated far more years than me and you to the study of immunology and vaccines, who are not blinded by Big Pharma dollar conflicts of interest, and who believe in the scientific precautionary principle.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1m3TjokVU4

          • Who?

            Yes, they are just blinded by the money they make selling consultations and speaking slots to the credulous over-indulged, while no doubt running their own lines of supplements to further enhance their incomes.

            Even worse they love having followers, and what’s a few epidemics between friends?

          • Nick Sanders

            Please stop misusing the term “precautionary principle”.

          • Wren

            Isn’t it funny how Big Pharma, who makes less per person by far on vaccinations than the diseases themselves, manages to blind not just the vast majority of health care providers in the US, including the insurance companies to hate to pay out for anything, but also the vast majority of healht care providers in almost every country regardless of health care system, to their evil vaccination plot?

          • Wren

            How do you determine who those people are?

            Let me guess…they are against vaccinations?

            I’ll stick with the vast majority of those who actually do research and publish in the field who have come to an international consensus which has held up for generations over the few, who have often been shown to have no evidence or fraudulent evidence.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Yes, there is nothing like poor sources to confirm your bias

          • Who?

            Oh well as long as there is secret documentation that only people who are already on board with everything can see, I’m in! Why didn’t you say so sooner?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Really? Post me a link to your research and I will give you a link to mine

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Some doctors do a lot of things. Doctors with the real responsability about real patients do not prevent people that have received vaccines to be around real inmunocompromised patients. Why? Because there is no evidence that it is dangerous. If you have any evidence that it is dangerous, please post it. Real evidence in oncology is a trial on a peer reviewed journal with an impact factor higher than 7. And I am being generous with the impact factor, we do not change practice with less than that.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            There were two cases where a bone marrow transplant recipient and one who was about to get a bone marrow transplant got a flu like illness from a person recently vaccinated with LAIV flu mist. Although it is more like a cold because the attenuated virus cannot replicate at body temperature. There have been a handful of cases of rotavirus causing a mild infection in immune compromised contacts which is easily avoidable if you avoid the infants feces or wash your hands after diaper changes. Then there have been a handful of cases where someone who recently received a varicella vaccine and developed pox spread an extremely mild case of chickenpox to a susceptible contact. Oral polio is another story, but we do not give that here. That is it and these things could be easily avoidable. Shedding is not the problem you imagine it to be

          • Proponent

            Thank you for the summary, Sullivan.

            Appreciate the information.

          • Katia

            Yes, and the number of documented cases of chickenpox transmission is this way is 5 out of 55 million doses of vaccine given. I believe there were some cases of flu transmitted from Flu Mist in a day care center too, from kids who got the vaccine under age two, and where hygiene is horrific, to say the least.

      • sabelmouse

        making life hard – impossible for those not vaccinating means what exactly?

        • SporkParade

          Why do people who choose not to vaccinate deserve more rights than the people whose lives they endanger? Immunocompromised children shouldn’t be denied a public school education just because you choose to believe in pseudoscience.

          • sabelmouse

            why do the immunocompromised deserve that i risk my children’s health?
            and how do the cope with viruses that aren’t targeted by vaccines?
            how do they cope with those shedding vaccine?
            those whose protection has waned or where the vaccine never took?
            are the teachers/parents/lunch workers/janitors up on their boosters?
            of course the irony is that they might be immunocompromised because of vaccine injury.
            there’s only 1 winner here.

          • SporkParade

            1. Because their medical reality takes precedence over your belief in fantasy. 2. It depends. That doesn’t justify exposing them to diseases that can easily kill a completely healthy person. 3. Shedding is a myth. 4. That’s why herd immunity is important. 5. Usually. 6. Citation of GTFO.

          • sabelmouse

            oh dear. dream on.

          • Nick Sanders

            You only risk your child’s health by *not* vaccinating.

          • sabelmouse

            blahblah!

          • Wren

            Very eloquent response. Your argument is very persuassive.

          • sabelmouse

            some people just are nwmt.

          • Wren

            Why are you here then?

            Most of the regular commenters here, and the blog owner herself, strongly agree with Nick Sanders.

          • sabelmouse

            i have a dashboard. i get the comments by people i follow on it. i check out what they’re commenting on/answering to. sometimes i say something.
            i don’t just go to blogs/sites that i like.

          • Wren

            OK.

          • Nick Sanders

            Aww, thanks. That makes me feel all fuzzy.

          • SG1

            Blahblah isn’t a reply and ??? isn’t and answer to ‘how do vaccines work.
            Is your chronic illness in your head?

          • sabelmouse

            why would me being fed up with idiotic comments/ters mean that my chronic illness is in my head. though some of it surely is as my brain is having issues.

          • SG1

            You clearly do have issues.
            Just because people ask you for facts does not make them idiots.

          • sabelmouse

            you must be new here. or shillin yourself?

          • Fallow

            My daughter is worth just as much as your children. Despite your selfishness, other people are real and have equal value. Whether you believe it or not.

            The first
            year of my daughter’s life was full of anxiety because of people like
            you. I live near a community of people with anti-vaxx sentiments, and
            measles and whooping cough have both had outbreaks in my area. I lived
            in fear that my daughter would catch once of these diseases before she
            could get her vaccinations.

            I was terrified of that I’d have to
            listen to her cough until she asphyxiated, or that she’d get
            encephalitis from measles – or that she’d be one of the rare people form
            whom measles eventually results in SSPE. All totally preventable, all
            totally unnecessary, all coming back because of people like you.

            Every
            time she got another vaccine against these archaic diseases, I would
            nearly weep with relief that the odds were good she would be spared
            preventable illness, injury, or death due to the incredible negligent
            idiocy of other parents.

            My father got measles as a child, and my grandmother described it as
            some of the worst terror of her time as a mother. He was so sick and so
            young. And she was so afraid that she talks about it still, over 60 years
            later. You can hear that fear in her voice like it just happened yesterday.

            So here is my personal thanks for endangering children like my daughter. You’re a scourge.

          • Diet dee

            why don’t you spend some of that energy in researching what could increase immunity rather living in fear.

          • Nick Sanders

            “What could increase immunity”? You mean like vaccines?

          • Who?

            Hold on one second. You buy a whole lot of errant nonsense from a pack of nobodies about the dangers of one of the most effective public health measures in the history of the world, and you accuse Fallow of living in fear?

            Your life is all about fear-fear of what you are too ignorant to try and understand and fear of responsibility. You can’t even own the fact that your unvaccinated children might make another child, who is too young or ill to be vaccinated, sick. So you mock.

            And when your unvaxxed child gets sick, do you run to Big Tinfoil for care and support, or do you overcome your distaste for Big Pharma and Big Medicine and get them some proper help? Actually, don’t care because either way your behaviour would be beneath contempt. At least in the second case the inncocent child you neglect would be saved, presumably for more neglect in future.

          • Diet dee

            Actually I don’t mean to mock her. There many diseases for which there are no vaccines. Research that which may strengthen the immune system vitamins,herbs wholesome foods etc.

          • Nick Sanders

            No amount of vitamins or “herbs” are going to make a newborn get their immune system established early.

          • Who?

            Oh really, well that’s okay then.

            Your second sentence is illiterate, but I think the point you are hoping to make is the natural fallacy-that the immune system can be improved by diet and supplements. Who is telling you this? Could it be the people wanting to flog these products to you? Where are their placebo controlled double blind studies, the only sort, according to anti-vaxxers, that are of any value?

            That’s right, there aren’t any. And this is not because there is no money-the supplements industry is worth almost as much as the drug industry, and dominated by subsidiaries of the drug industry. Why would they bother researching anything when frightened and gullible people will buy their snake oil anyway.

          • Wren

            What does strengthening the immune system actually mean?

          • Diet dee

            Giving body the nutritional support that it needs to deal with disease. For a malnourished person the tight amounts of vitamin A or C can be the difference between life and death.
            Most of the deaths from measles in third world countries. Look up a slum in Kenya and you will see open sewers, tin shacks for housing and no clean water.

          • Wren

            And deaths in the developed world?

            I also would not assume that all deaths from measles in developing nations are malnourished or from slums. Not everyone there is.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No one in this country is lacking in vitamin C and vitamin A deficiency is very rare

          • Diet dee

            If you go beyond the RDA of vitamin C you will be able deal with better disease better

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, you will just have expensive pee. We get 1,500X the RDA every single day in the US. How much more would we need?

          • Diet dee

            what nutrient(s) are you referring to

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Also, getting too much vitamin A causes cancer and death

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee
          • Nick Sanders

            A single article, from 30 years ago, about treating a single disease, one that can be prevented through vaccination, is all you have? That hardly supports a general claim for Vitamin C as a cure all.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Increasing inflammation. That’s what the immune system does, you know: produces inflammatory cytokines. So I have no idea how the “strengthen your immune system” meme is reconciled to the “reduce inflammation” meme.

          • KarenJJ

            That’s the bit that confuses me a lot. I’ve had chronic inflammation my whole life due to a genetic defect and it’s not pretty. Joints are iffy, severe hearing loss, papilledema, chronic anemia, enlarged liver… And I’m one of the lucky ones that avoided amyloidosis. Why someone would want to “boost” their immune system I’ve no idea.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Um, hippy mom fed me vitamins, herbs, and wholesome food. Still deaf from scarlet fever. Sister still got ovarian cancer at 28.

          • Wren

            It was probably GMO or toxins in the environment. Or perhaps your mother put a hat on you as a newborn?

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Chemtrails! Vaccines! (Mom did believe in those, thankfully)

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            My grandmother was made deaf by scarlet fever at 12 years old back in the ’20s. As I’m sure you’re well aware, they did *not* have the sort of resources back then to help deaf people live a more normal life. She didn’t go back to school after that, and ended up working in what was essentially a sewing sweatshop for much of her working life. I often wonder if her deafness (she could read lips very well, but was entirely deaf) was one reason why she never left her ghastly husband, because though she worked, it was at such a low-paying job she’d have relied on him for most financial resources. Of course, back then divorce, even for very good reasons indeed, was rare in the extreme, so I’m sure the deafness wasn’t entirely to blame for her rather sad life. Still…
            One thing I do know: I’m quite certain that if she were offered a way to cure or prevent the scarlet fever she had, she’d have taken it like a shot.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            I imagine so. Must have been very tough on your grandma and her kids.

          • Nick Sanders

            Thank you for reminding me of this article!
            http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/01/growing_up_unvaccinated_a_healthy_lifestyle_couldn_t_prevent_many_childhood.html

            Also, sorry to hear about you and your sister.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Thank you. R’s a 7 year survivor. (And activist; Mom would be proud) My hearing doesn’t bother me most of the time, only in accoustically noisy situations. It could have been much more problematic

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Sister still got ovarian cancer at 28.

            Get thee BRCA tested!

          • demodocus’ spouse

            What makes you think I haven’t?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Precautionary priniciple: If you have been you’ll roll your eyes at me and say “duh!” No major harm done except that I’m a jerk. If you haven’t been maybe you’ll get tested and if it’s positive be able to treat before you get breast or ovarian cancer. Sorry if I was being a jerk.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            None of those things strengthen the immune system. Other than getting disease antigen exposure during childhood increases immunity

          • KarenJJ

            I have the strongest immune system of anyone I know. I rarely got sick but had other funny niggling issues. I was also starting to go deaf.

            Turned out it was my super-charged immune system DOING all these niggling things. Joints swelling, random fevers (not from an infection), hearing loss, funny rashes. After I finally got a diagnosis for this one-in-a-million thing I’ve got the doctors went in and found a heap of other issues, I was even starting to lose my vision. It was my immune system doing all this stuff to me!

            A balanced immune system is a fantastic thing. Too much or too little becomes a nightmare to manage. I am very very lucky in that there is a medication that control it so that my immune system will no longer continue to cause damage it has done so far.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I have no reason to live in fear. I vaccinate. Perhaps you should take your own advice because only getting diseases or vaccination increases your specific immunity.

          • sabelmouse

            good point.

          • sabelmouse

            i had the measles and other childhood illnesses as a child and no problemo. i think i’ve got your anecdote beat. so did most of us at the time when negative outcome was 1/10000.
            was i ever sick from my last smallpox booster so. frighteningly sick.
            who knows how much my chronic illness has to do with that.

          • Wren

            Obviously, those who died are not here to tell us that they didn’t survive their childhood illnesses. Just like those who were never in a car seat or even using a seatbelt who didn’t survive aren’t here to tell us that. Personal anecdotes tell us little, which is why statistics are kept.

            What makes you believe your chronic illness has anything to do with your last smallpox booster?

            I was diagnosed with asthma within a year of getting married. Perhaps saying my vows caused it?

          • sabelmouse

            most of us would have noticed others dying or being very ill. it’s not something that just gets lost.
            extensive reading on the issue makes me suspect this.
            as for your asthma, reactions aren’t always immediate but if you look you might find a reason.
            i developed a spice allergy a few years ago. turns out the culprit was liver dysfunction aggravated by sugar.
            it’s not always obvious.

          • SG1

            Spice allergy, liver dysfunction, aggravated by sugar.
            Of course, it all makes perfect sense.
            FOS

          • sabelmouse

            just because you’re clueless doesn’t mean that’s not how it is.

          • Who?

            Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true, or correct, though if you feel sick or in pain all the time it feels good to have something to put it down to.

          • sabelmouse

            yeah. you’d know more that me or my doctor of course.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “yeah. you’d know more that me or my doctor of course.”

            And this from a few days back..

            sabelmouse: “i don’t know what permanent damage i have from this or other vaccines. i have so many things, it’s hard to figure out so much later.”

            How does one reconcile these two irreconcilable statements?
            Think that you are merely.. and as suggested by Who? above.. ‘filling in the blanks’.. yourownself.

            Which.. doesn’t lend any credence, nor, that of any credibility to your posts/comments. Sorry.

          • sabelmouse

            we’re talking about 2 different things. at least keep up if you must leave some of your inane drivel.

          • Proponent

            Not talking about ‘2 different things’.. at all.

            Stop trying to evade your own words, sabelmouse. They’re in your own commenting history for all to read.

          • Who?

            Trying to have S stick to a position is like getting a politician to speak plainly. Even if it could be achieved would it be worth the trouble? There are a lot of feelings and frustrations there and not too much of substance to the rest of us.

          • Proponent

            I refer to it as.. ‘trying to nail jello to a wall’.

            The odds of success are.. slim to none. 😉

          • Who?

            You’re more than usually rude at the moment. Perhaps go and talk to some nice restful antivax zombies, you’ll like that echo chamber much better.

          • Wren

            When your argument lacks facts and evidence and you are being asked to provide both, rudeness and attacks are a frequent response.

          • Who?

            Maybe so.

          • Proponent

            Bit harsh.. however.. have a guilty upvote on me. 😉

          • Nick Sanders

            The spice must flow.

          • Wren

            So the deaths from childhood diseases in the past were all made up? What on earth do you mean in saying “most of us would have noticed others dying or being very ill”? Many people did. Families who buried children noticed. People who lived their lives with damage from the diseases noticed.

            As for my asthma, chances are good that the genetic tendency towards it kicked in when I moved to a different climate on getting married. My grandmother, the majority of my siblings and my son all have asthma as well.

          • sabelmouse

            what time,place, or illness are we talking about. measles in the 60s, pre vaccine had a negative outcome ratio of about 1/10000.
            the same applies to many others. sanitation and nutrition. earlier than that, pre ww2 for instance it was different.
            do you think you would have not noticed classmates dying/becoming disabled/chronically ill? or does that only apply to those who were damaged by polio?
            genetic predisposition tends to be a factor with chronic illness , but what sets it off?

          • Wren

            Even today measles kills a small percentage, even in the developed world, and has a lasting negative effect on some others.

            Even if it did not, what benefit is there to catching measles if it can be avoided? I never had it, but was vaccinated instead, and I can’t think of a single reason that being ill would have been better than a few shots.

          • sabelmouse

            real, lifelong immunity. no worries about waning,boosters, getting it as an adult when it’s more dangerous.as a woman, protection of infant with antibodies, especially with breastfeeding.
            training of immune system for the many pathogens that will come it’s way.
            avoidance of risks associated with vaccines such as kanner’s autism, autoimmune disorders, allergies, certain cancers.
            proper nursing is essential though. bedrest, possibly darkened room, no fever suppression of any kind. all of those can have negative consequences.

          • Wren

            Lifelong immunity? Mostly, i suppose, but a booster beats getting sick.

            Getting it as an adult when it is more dangerous? Well, vaccination could completely eliminate that risk for everyone if all those who could be vaccinated were. Otherwise, a booster still beats getting sick.

            Protection of infants? Once again, we could get rid of the measles altogether with vaccination. Breastfeeding protection doesn’t last all that long. I prefer my children avoid the risks of measles rather than my daughter passing on a limited immunity to my grandchild.

            Training of the immune system? a) Vaccination is pretty darned good at that and b) we are exposed to plenty of less lethal viruses and bacteria daily our immune system can practice on.

            Risks associated with measles vaccination? Evidence for those risks you listed actually existing would be lovely.

          • sabelmouse

            you need to do more research then or be happy with how things are.

          • Who?

            Things are great, I’ll leave research into science, medicine and immunology to those who know all about it.

            I’m not so arrogant as to imagine I can become expert in those areas at this late stage.

          • Wren

            What on earth does that mean?

            I am not in research. In another life, I might have gone in that direction but it’s education for me this time around.

            I’m quite happy with vaccinations. I’m not happy with people spreading lies and half-truths to scare others into not vaccinating.

          • sabelmouse

            research vaccinations. because of the obvious gaps.

          • Wren

            I’ve already stated I am not in research. I do hold a BS in biology and could, with a lot of time and money, gain the qualifications to go into research, but I don’t see me doing that. I really admire you for doing that. What have you published?

            Oh, wait! You mean looking stuff up and, with little to no background in the subject, deciding you know better how to interpret it than the vast majority of those trained in the field, right?

          • Nick Sanders

            If they are obvious, then why can’t we see them?

          • sabelmouse

            it’s great that you’re happy with vaccines but there are gaps in your knowledge.
            and you’re ering on the side of those spreading lies and half truths to scare people into vaccinating.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “it’s great that you’re happy with vaccines but there are gaps in your knowledge.”

            Feel free to fill those gaps in.. and back them up with some verifiable and creditable sources.

            sabelmouse: “and you’re ering on the side of those spreading lies and half truths to scare people into vaccinating.”

            Conversely.. others have provided supporting information that you simply dismiss.. ’cause.. it doesn’t fit your confirmation bias / mental paradigm.

            So.. who’s really doing the fear mongering?

          • Wren

            What gaps?

            What evidence do you have that my information is wrong? There are countless studies form all over the world showing the benefits of vaccines, while those showing things like vaccines causing autism have either been very poor quality and/or outright fraudulent.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The only people with lies and 1/2 truths are the people you are believing

          • Who?

            I had mumps twice.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            2 people from the Disney outbreak had measles as children. Compared to the amount of people who were at Disneyland that is no better than the vaccine.

          • Nick Sanders

            “[R]eal, lifelong immunity” can just as easily be gotten from a vaccine. And it avoids real risks, like death, encephalopathy, and disability, unlike the nonsensical risks you are claiming.

          • Nick Sanders

            1 in 10000, in a country of over 320,000,000, and so contagious it is near ubiquitous.

            Yeah, those numbers aren’t good.

          • Nick Sanders

            Memory is very famously unreliable. To the point that a convincing talker can get people to remember things that never happened.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            “i developed a spice allergy a few years ago. turns out the culprit was liver dysfunction aggravated by sugar.
            it’s not always obvious.”

            Oh, for fuck’s sake. Care to tell us how this was diagnosed?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Are you calling her naturopath a liar?

          • sabelmouse

            i can.

          • Who?

            Let’s hear it.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “was i ever sick from my last smallpox booster so. frighteningly sick. who knows how much my chronic illness has to do with that.”

            Or.. doesn’t.

          • sabelmouse

            stop.stalking.me!

          • Proponent

            Oh, please.. this is a public board.

            Resorting to this stalking nonsense is just that.. nonsense.

          • Wren

            When did replying to comments on a public blog become stalking?

          • Nick Sanders

            I had someone on Facebook once accuse me of stalking and cyberbullying because I wouldn’t let her have the last word on one thread in a public space. The hysterics they went into were kinda impressive. Stuff like “What you’re doing is cyberbullying! They make movies about this!”.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, that doesn’t beat anyone’s anecdote. That is the survivor fallacy because people who died from childhood diseases are not here to talk about it. Maybe measles is responsible for your chronic illness or other childhood diseases because that is much more likely.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Smallpox booster? Smallpox has been extinct since the 1970s and I’m not aware that the vaccine was ever more than a one time thing. (Though I could easily be wrong. Smallpox being a historical disease it’s not covered much in medical school these days.)

          • sabelmouse

            hilarious! i’m quite obviously older than you.

          • Diet dee

            Might want to look up the claims of the MERCK whistleblowers

          • Nick Sanders

            And what claims would those be? How would anything they might have to say make the measles any less horrible?

          • Diet dee

            http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html
            Falsified efficacy of a vaccine
            It not always the anti VAXErs fault

          • Nick Sanders

            Ok, so that answers one of my questions. Doesn’t address anything about the measles though. And the case has not been decided yet as far as I know. Even if Merck lose the suit, it likely means at most that other companies might get to make the mumps vaccine as well.

            A much better analysis can be found here:

            http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/merck-mumps-motions-whistleblowers-the-actual-story/

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            You are only risking your child’s health by vaccinating on opposite day.

          • yugaya

            “why do the immunocompromised deserve that i risk my children’s health?”

            Because

            a) basic human empathy

            and

            b) you risk your children’s health by not vaccinating.

          • Nick Sanders

            “[T]hey might be immunocompromised because of vaccine injury”. Can you show even one well documented case where that has happened?

          • sabelmouse

            other’s might,not my area, or do the research myself. as most vaccine injury is denied it’s indeed hard to get.

          • Proponent

            You’re just leaping from assertion to assertion to.. without backing up your stuff.

            Don’t you think that just might be.. some how.. some way … problematic?

          • Nick Sanders

            If you refuse to provide evidence for your claims, then I refuse to hear them.

          • sabelmouse

            stop replying.

          • Wren

            Um…you do know that this is not your blog and you have no control over who replies to anything you post here, right?

          • sabelmouse

            stalking is frowned upon on these fora, multiple replies to a person who doesn’t answer you , even after you told them you don’t want to engage with them,following them from site to site even, constitutes stalking.
            at the very least it’s the sign of a fanatic, as deranged mind, or a shill.
            mostly it’s the last of those.
            shills have been on me like flies on a corpse yesterday.
            i don’t know why some days are worse than others.
            i know that their job is to spam threads and derail discussions but they’re not always equally thick on the ground.
            maybe business was slow.

          • Proponent

            Don’t want to be on the receiving end of replies to the contrary of your assertions and nonsense?

            Simple.. stop posting nonsense.

          • Who?

            Oh dear. So you come on, a regular engages with you, and it’s up to him to disengage when it suits you.

            Sounds like rules for someone who likes the last word, not someone who is interested in engaging points of view.

          • sabelmouse

            a dozen comments a day to a non replying person is stalking and harassment.

          • KarenJJ

            That seems like a very low bar for calling something “stalking and harrassment”.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s the lowest level. it’s still not ok and sign of a poster who is either a fanatic, somehow deranged, or a shill.
            plenty of people make their profile private because of those kinds.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Maybe Dr. Amy should ban you. For your own protection.

          • Wren

            Or it’s a sign of a regular poster with a little time on his or her hands who does not want misinformation on an important topic to go unrebutted, even on a 5 year old thread.

          • sabelmouse

            i’ve known some of these people for a while. i know what they are. most of the time it’s easy to tell. sometimes it’s a little harder.

          • Wren

            Known them? The same way you have repeatedly claimed to know me?

            If you do know me, go ahead and prove it. Otherwise, perhaps you should consider the idea that you are wrong about knowing all these people.

            As for your claims they are shills, proof of that would be nice too. I’d like to know how to get into that. Extra money would be nice. We’d love a big summer holiday.

          • Nick Sanders

            Who’s going to your profile? I’m just scrolling down the page. You get more replies because you’re more talkative than Chris or Dee.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            …and it’s not like you weren’t responding to Chris or Dee when they posted.

          • Wren

            Hmmm…how many comments have you made here? On a 5 year old thread?

            Sabelouse is stalking Dr Amy!!!

          • sabelmouse

            i have no idea. i don’t keep track. i think most of them are to you or regarding this whole stalking issues. why don’t you count the amount of comments certain shills/fanatics have made to someone who doesn’t reply to them?
            and what does the age of the article have to do with anything?

          • Wren

            Sorry, you only count other people’s posts, not your own. How could I not have known that?

            Perhaps you should identify the shills/fanatics in question for me, then explain why comments posted publicly are not free for anyone to respond to. If you prefer to limit replies to only certain people, private correspondence would probably be a better option.

          • sabelmouse

            i am sorry for your lack of understanding and even sorrier if you actually just don’t want to understand. i’m done , either way.

          • Wren

            Translation: I, sabelmouse, have nothing. I’m going to try to make it look like you are in the wrong, since this stalking gambit failed.

          • Nick Sanders

            Or I’m bored, and you’re giving me something better to do than sitting around feeling bored.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Not. Doxxing is stalking and harassment. Someone trying to engage you on a public board where you spoke first is not harassment.

          • sabelmouse

            that’s trying to engage like guys in the start catcalling are trying to engage.

          • Who?

            The guys catcalling want to do the same to you for free as you pay your magicians (oh woops, naturopath etc) to do. The magicians just pretend it is about you not them.

          • sabelmouse

            utter nonsense!

          • Bombshellrisa

            No, this is an open forum. You are free to listen to or engage in the debate. You can’t tell others not to engage you once you have spoken up. If you don’t wish to engage any longer, simply turn off your alerts to new replies or do not come back to the page. You can’t control what other people do or say or how often they do it.

          • sabelmouse

            i don’t come back to the page, i see on and answer from my dash mostly.
            and the people that i talk about are not only on one site and don’t just reply to me only on one site.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, first I’m stalking you from site to site, but now you’re saying the reason you are refusing to respond to me is because I’m only talking to you on this one site. Which is it? Make up your mind.

          • sabelmouse

            i’m not only talking about you./

          • Wren

            Except you are the one hurtling insults while they are primarily posting facts, often with citations to back them up.

          • sabelmouse

            you said you didn’t see what was wrong with shilling, so why would you consider that an insult?

          • Wren

            Baseless accusations of stalking and harrassment are worse than insults.

            I never said there is nothing wrong with shilling, actually, but clearly you find it to be a negative thing, so baseless accusations are at best insulting.

            Then there are the claims of mental health problems for those who don’t agree with you.

            Try responding to the arguments presented rather than resorting to logical fallacies. If the argument holds water, it really doesn’t matter who is making it or whether that person is paid to do so.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            non replying person

            He is responding to your comments. Whether you respond to him is irrelevant. It’s a public forum. YOU post a comment, and others can choose to respond to it or not.

            He has not responded to comments you didn’t make. Only those you have.

          • Who?

            I wouldn’t call it stalking and I’m pretty entertained.

            If you don’t want responses, don’t post. If you don’t want responses that disagree with you, don’t talk goo.

          • yugaya

            Commenting on this blog is open floor debate. There are valid reasons why you personally or any individual speaker would not want to engage someone, but if you want to argue your point you can’t pick who to talk to really – you will have to address all counterarguments regardless of who makes them or why. Unless you are here to talk to yourself, of course, which would also explain why other people asking you questions you can’t answer in a reasonable manner is interpreted along the lines of persecution delusion.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Persecution delusion is exactly it. “Shills” are “stalking” sabelmouse everywhere.

          • sabelmouse

            none of that explains 1 poster leaving a dozen replies to a person who doesn’t answer them. that’s not engaging. that’s mental illness or shilling.

          • yugaya

            A dozen people at least have left dozens of replies to you here. Are they ALL mentally ill or shilling?

          • Wren

            Obviously.

            What, have you not received your cheque yet? Big Pharma should be sending it soon, to thank you for promoting an intervention that cuts their potential profits by millions by keeping people healthier and out of the hospital.

          • KarenJJ

            Why would pharmaceutical shills hang out on a Skeptical obgyn website? Wouldn’t a pharmaceutical company get more for their money if they were actually spending it on people infiltrating anti-vax groups? What purpose could a pharmaceutical shill have on a site like this where access to vaccinations and quality medical care is very much a concern of the regular commentators here anyway?

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t care if you answer me or not. You are spouting dangerous misinformation, and it needs to be rebutted.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Hysteria and paranoia are signs of a deranged mind as well. It belittles the experience of actual stalking victims when you claim that Nick is stalking you by responding to your posts on a public forum. Has Nick made any threats to you or your family? Does Nick call you at all hour of the night? Does Nick give you a valid reason to fear for your safety? All he seems to do is reply to your comments made on a public forum and ask you to back up your opinions. And I’d like to remind you that he was on here first. Nick is a regular on this site and you just started to comment so how is he stalking you.

          • sabelmouse

            it starts somewhere. plenty have experienced it. the polite thing to do is to step away.
            regular has nothing to with it.

          • LibrarianSarah

            So we went from “stalking and harassment” to being impolite. Okay then.
            If you want people to stop responding to you, you can stop posting at
            anytime. What you can’t do is come here make a bunch of false and
            dangerous claim and accuse someone of committing a fairly serious crime
            against you for asking you to substantiate those claims. Nick is not
            stalking you, he hasn’t made any threats against you, he is just asking
            you to provide evidence for your claims. Stalking is a serious crime
            that has a serious impact on the security and mental health of victims.
            It is disgusting that you try to equate someone arguing with you on the
            internet to such an experience. The fact that you don’t have the least
            amount of shame about it shows something very ugly about you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Politeness is reserved for those who aren’t arguing lives be needlessly endangered.

          • Proponent

            “It belittles the experience of actual stalking victims when you claim
            that Nick is stalking you by responding to your posts on a public forum.”

            / This.. oh so very much.. this.

          • Nick Sanders

            When the hell did I follow you from site to site?

          • Nick Sanders

            No.

          • Proponent

            I am not going to stop either.. unless, that is.. sabelmouse clicks her heels together three times.

            Which could turn out to be the proverbial win-win.. sabelmouse disappears back to ‘Kansas’ (read; ‘any anti-vaccination echo chamber’).. and my fingers and keyboard get a rest.

          • Wren

            Stop making me laugh!

          • Proponent

            You really don’t want to be encouraging me..

            … …

            Ok, did you hear the on

            (*gets yanked off of the forum’s stage by the handle of a rather large umbrella*)

            Enjoy your day, Wren. 🙂

          • Nick Sanders

            I guess it is rather hard to find a vaudeville hook these days…

          • Proponent

            Not in the budget.. these are hard times.

            😉

          • yugaya

            You need to find a Bigger Pharma to shill for then .:P

          • Proponent

            Lol.

            Hey.. I would work for cookies if someone was willing to foot that bill.

            Which, could actually be quite large given my predilections for baked goods.

          • Wren

            I’d actually kind of like to hear one single set of claims, with no moving goalposts.

            I doubt anything would change sabelmouse’s mind, but other readers (including me) might learn something when those claims are addressed.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            How do you think that vaccines work?

          • sabelmouse

            ???

          • KarenJJ

            Because those of us who have kids with immune system issues aren’t reading bullshit on the internet but are talking to the specialists who are looking at this stuff, and sometimes working from first principles, to try and understand and work out the best way forwards with vaccines and a child with a wonky immune system.

            People like you are reading fear mongering from puffed-up blowhards on the internet with no training, no responsibility for patients and enjoy the attention they get from creating followers in their cult – people like yourselves. People like me are speaking to people who have studied the immune system for YEARS, have dealt with thousands of patients and clinical cases and are trying to find a solution for an extraordinary case that is one-in-a-million.

            Seriously, you talk about risk as though it is comparable to the risk that someone with a chronically ill kid is taking. It’s like looking at someone in a wheelchair and saying “yeah I find it tough without ramps when I’m trying to get around on my skateboard too…”. It’s an incredibly privileged position to be in.

          • sabelmouse

            i started researching this in 1990, only had the internet for 10 years. there goes that hypothesis of yours.
            we’re constantly learning new things about the immune system. let’s hope your super doctors keep up and aren’t to influenced by pharma rules.
            just fyi. both i and my daughter are chronically ill and neuroatypical.

          • KarenJJ

            They don’t just “keep up”, they write the stuff that others need to “keep up” with. I’m sorry to hear of your and your daughter’s health issues. It’s never an easy path.

          • sabelmouse

            it sure isn’t. i’m glad that you found good doctors.

          • Wren

            There was misinformation out there before the internet. The fact you found it, or some of it, without the internet doesn’t actually make a difference.

            Doctors are learning more about the immune system, and that knowledge is being used to make vaccines more effective while decreasing side effects. Awesome, isn’t it?

          • sabelmouse

            the internet was mentioned as the source of my supposed misinformation.
            the idea/myth sure is awesome.

          • MaineJen

            Oh cool! Tell me what new things we’ve learned about the immune system lately.
            -*Studies antibodies for a living and is really fascinated with all this new knowledge about to come forth.*

          • sabelmouse

            surely i have nothing to tell you unless all your info is pharma sponsored.

          • Wren

            “Pharma sponsored”.

            Is there any research you would feel is not tainted by big pharma?

          • MaineJen

            Well, one part of that comment is correct. And it’s not the part about me being pharma sponsored. (I don’t know what a Pharma is, but I could sure use a sponsor…)

          • sabelmouse

            i think you may have found one since you’re posting here.

          • Nick Sanders

            Then surely you have a CV you can show us?

          • yugaya

            I do happen to be raising neuroatypical kids too. Nothing to do with vaccines btw.

          • Proponent

            sabelmouse: “how do they cope with those shedding vaccine?”

            Please provide anything.. something.. that would verify any instance for any vaccine that as a result of ‘shedding’.. lead to an infection.

            Shall wait.. right.. here..

          • Cobalt

            If shedding was an actual threat, then why aren’t there massive outbreaks in infants in day care (infants too young too vaccinate) every time a toddler gets a booster?

          • Wren

            I know!

            It’s not my fault you are too clueless to know that. Do your research.

          • Katia

            Exactly! I was just thinking of that recently, due to too much hanging out on vaccine message boards. There are about 4 million babies born each year. About 90% of them, or 3.6 million, get their MMR between 12 and 15 months. So why aren’t there more outbreaks if this “shedding” is such a problem? Answer: it’s not!

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            MMR even though it is live doesn’t really shed. The rubella portion is the only one that sheds whole attenuated virus and it is a tiny amount. Measles and mumps only shed pieces of the attenuated virus and in urine. Which shows that the viruses are destroyed and being excreted. Also, no one has ever gotten rubella from the shedding.

          • Diet dee

            School are pretty flithy with or without vaccines. An sickly child would still be in danger

          • Wren

            School children do tend to pick up the non-vaccine preventable illnesses at a relatively high rate, but I wouldn’t call my children’s school or the children in it “filthy” generally. Let the year 4s play football at lunchtime and you’ll see more dirt and grass stains on them than I’d prefer, as that includes my son and I do his laundry, but they are not generally filthy.

          • Diet dee

            Filthy in the sense that little kids arent the cleanest, they play on the floor and may not wash their hands very well or at all. Take your kids out of day care and suddenly the nose stops running. My friend who became teacher tend to caught a few more cold than usual until they got used to it

          • Nick Sanders

            Measles is not a cold, it is a life threatening illness that has a good chance of putting you in the hospital, and can leave you blind, deaf, or brain damaged.

            And it’s one of the milder things vaccinated against. Diphtheria, whooping cough, polio… these things are truly horrifying.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Could you explain to us exactly how vaccines work?

            Could you also explain why anyone should take you seriously?

          • Diet dee

            Your the MD you explain it. But there are plenty of other viruses in a classroom for which there are no vaccines

          • Nick Sanders

            So, your answer is the nirvana fallacy?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            So you don’t know.

            You have no idea how vaccines work, but you feel qualified to opine on them. Why? Your thoughts on the topic are worse than worthless and your overestimation of the value of your opinions is truly mind boggling.

            Go out and learn something about vaccines and statistics, then maybe you will have something other than idiocy to transmit.

          • Diet dee

            I opine because I have disqus account. Vaccines work by introducing a weakened dead virus to the immune system. In the future when the human body is exposed to the real thing. The immune system will deal with the disease more effectively. MD once believed that this immunity would be lifelong but outbreak still happened and boosters are needed to maintain immunity.

          • Wren

            Of course there are other viruses (and bacteria) for which there are no vaccines. Maybe you should figure out why the vaccines we have were chosen.

          • KarenJJ

            But the danger is “cold and snotty nose” vs meningitis from measles. The outcomes of some of these diseases are much scarier than the sort of snotty nosed diarrhea that my kids pick up a few times a year.

      • Diet dee

        Vaccine preventable diseases tend to kill the very ill or malnourished in the 3rd world. About 400 people died a year in the decade before vaccines out of 160 million people. There is very little risk that an unvaccinated child posses to a school system.

        • Nick Sanders

          Thinking like that is what has lead to outbreaks of whooping cough in the last few years.

          • Diet dee

            The rate of whopping cough has been going up since the 80s. The whole cell vaccines were more effective but it had alot of side effects. But newer vaccine is less effective against both strains. Outbreaks have happened in highly vaccinated groups also

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            what were the concerns about the pertussis vaccine in the first place. Occasionally bad lots of vaccines have killed people. Also it could possible that whooping cough was ruled out if an child got the vaccine previously. Part of polios decline was due to the renaming of the disease.

            “Whooping Cough Gets A Revamp
            Whooping cough has also been found to have a name change. It has been reported over and over that cases of whooping cough have been diagnosed in fully vaccinated children. In fact one report stated that vaccine failure has actually been admitted. Natural News (10) reported:

            New research reported by Reuters reveals that whooping cough outbreaks are HIGHER among vaccinated children compared with unvaccinated children. This is based on a study led by Dr. David Witt, an infectious disease specialist at the Kaiser Permanente Medical Center in San Rafael, California.

            Doctors have known this for a very long time and there could be many more cases than we could ever imagine. Professionals have discovered that doctors have been diagnosing whooping cough as croup!.

            Dr Viera Scheibner says:

            In the Journal of Infectious Diseases, 1994, “Age Specific Incidence of Bacteriologically Confirmed Pertussis, between 1981 and 1991 – ten year follow-up”.(11) The majority of cases occurred in the most vulnerable age group below the age of one year in the most vaccinated children. Actually the majority of cases happened within the first four months. The vaccine is causing whooping cough. A lot of children develop whooping cough from the vaccine, but if they are vaccinated, it will be diagnosed as ‘croup’.

            Bronwyn Hancock Vaccine Information Service agrees (12) stating:

            “(2) The diagnostic guidelines given to doctors were supplemented with “No history of vaccination” when the vaccines were introduced. Even without these written guidelines, doctors are taught that vaccines are effective. The result is that upon seeing an illness in a child who has been vaccinated “against” it, doctors have been observed to conclude that the disease must be a different disease, so the case of the disease is not reported.

            For example whooping cough gets called “croup” when it occurs in vaccinated children, and diphtheria gets called such names as “epiglotitis”, or, as in this case, described in “Raising a Vaccine Free Child”, by Wendy Lydall (2005, pg 68),

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Polio wasn’t renamed.

          • yugaya

            You didn’t get the memo?

          • Diet dee

            The criteria for diagnosis was changed in 1955
            “Unbeknownst to most doctors, the polio-vaccine history involves a massive public health service makeover during an era when a live, deadly strain of poliovirus infected the Salk polio vaccines, and paralyzed hundreds of children and their contacts. These were the vaccines that were supposedly responsible for the decline in polio from 1955 to 1961! But there is a more sinister reason for the “decline” in polio during those years; in 1955, a very creative re-definition of poliovirus infections was invented, to “cover” the fact that many cases of ”polio” paralysis had no poliovirus in their systems at all. While this protected the reputation of the Salk vaccine, it muddied the waters of history in a big way.

            Even during the peak epidemics, unifactorial poliovirus infection, resulting in long-term paralysis, was a low-incidence disease[2] that was falsely represented as a rampant and violent crippler by Basil O’Connor’s “March Of Dimes” advertising campaigns. At the same time as Basil O’Connor was pulling in 45 million dollars a year to fund the Salk vaccine development, scientists started to realize that other viruses like Coxsackie, echo and enteroviruses, could also cause polio. They also discussed the fact that lead, arsenic, DDT, and other commonly-used neurotoxins, could identically mimic the lesions of polio. During the great epidemics in the United States, the pathology called polio was reversed by alternative medical doctors who attested to great success, using detoxification procedures available at the time – yet they were categorically ignored[3].”

            – See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/11/17/smoke-mirrors-and-the-disappearance-of-polio/#sthash.G7rq25M8.dpuf
            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/11/17/smoke-mirrors-and-the-disappearance-of-polio/

          • Nick Sanders

            See, you keep restating the claim without actually backing it up. That’s a problem.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am sorry, but that is not how diagnosis works. You are being lied to

          • Nick Sanders

            And all those chemicals listed have very different symptoms from each other, and from polio.

          • Diet dee

            Here is the link

            http://vaxtruth.org/2012/03/the-polio-vaccine-part-2-2/

            The fact that dubious tactics were used to fabricate efficacy rates was corroborated by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, chairman of the Committee on Evaluation and Standards of the American Public Health Association during the 1950s. His expert testimony was used as evidence during Congressional hearings in 1962. He credited the “decline” of polio cases not to the vaccine, but rather to a change in the way doctors were required to report cases: “Prior to 1954 any physician who reported paralytic poliomyelitis was doing his patient a service by way of subsidizing the cost of hospitalization… two examinations at least 24 hours apart was all that was required… In 1955 the criteria were changed… residual paralysis was determined 10 to 20 days after onset of illness and again 50 to 70 days after onset… This change in definition meant that in 1955 we started reporting a new disease… Furthermore, diagnostic procedures have continued to be refined. Coxsackie virus infections and aseptic meningitis have been distinguished from poliomyelitis… Thus, simply by changes in diagnostic criteria, the number of paralytic cases was predetermined to decrease… [52:96,97]”

            [52] Hearings Before the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, House of Representatives, 87th Congress, 2nd Session on HR 10541. May 1962:94–112.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Wow! A vaxtruth link. That pretty much proves my point.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            wow that was gross

          • Nick Sanders

            Far less disgusting than vaccine denialism.

          • Who?

            What’s gross? Learning the truth and that you have been lied to, or seeing poisoned and ill people?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Care to address the actual point? You know, the anti-vax sources have been lying to you?

            Seriously, where did you learn your supposed “fact” that lead poisoning looks like polio? As you have now seen, it’s complete bullshit. Just like everything else they are telling you.

          • Katia

            It’s a good object lesson for you pro-disease people, who like to think that polio is no big deal and “only” a half percent get paralysis. Ironically, my pastor was talking about these crippled children in India in her sermon yesterday.

          • Nick Sanders

            Natural News? Really? But please, do show me where they changed the names and somehow didn’t connect the two names epidemiologically.

          • Wren

            My sister nearly died of whooping cough as an infant, too young to be fully vaccinated. She had been partially vaccinated and the doctors on her case told my parents that probably saved her life. All of my siblings and my own children have had croup. The two are not the same.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            One of Pres. Garfield’s kids died of pertussis.

          • Daleth

            DietDee, that quote you posted from Dr. Viera Scheibner sounded like complete garbage that no actual doctor would ever say, so I googled her. Did you know that Scheibner is not a doctor?

            She holds the title “Dr.” because she has a Ph.D. in micropaleontology from the University of Bratislava (former Czechoslovakia). Micropaleontology is the study of fossils that are so small you need a microscope to study them. Oh, and she earned this Ph.D. in 1958, before most modern vaccines even existed.

            Explain to me how on earth that qualifies her to opine on vaccines?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            She is just shilling

          • Diet dee

            If she is intelligent enough to get a Ph.D. read can probably reads scientific studies and research the literature and have an opinion

          • Wren

            She is capable of reading and forming an opinion, but is she capable of understanding the literature written for those in the field? Why does her opinion vary so much from those of the majority of her field?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If she is intelligent enough to get a Ph.D. read can probably reads scientific studies and research the literature and have an opinion

            As someone with a PhD and who reads scientific studies, my response is, “Nonsense.”

            Nothing pisses me off more than people who pretend that their PhD means more than it does.

          • Wren

            My sister is currently finsihing up a PhD in film. Are you saying she won’t be able to pick up any literature and instantly understand it?

            I was hoping she could review some of the literature on a medical condition or two for me, given that she will have a PhD.

          • Daleth

            Dietdee, doctors have doctorates too (that’s what an MD degree is). And their doctorates are in medicine.

            Why would you take the word of one retired Czechoslovakian micropaleontologist (i.e., academic who studies fossils) over the word of 99.99999% of the MD’s on the face of the earth?

          • Diet dee

            For one thing she is not the only critic of vaccination.How many doctors study vaccines? It’s usually easier to do what you are paid to do (write prescriptions and give conventional medical advice even if its ineffective or harmful) rather than speak up against what you see is wrong. The failure’s of commercial medicine is often suppress or minimized and this can skew or perception of medical technology. In the USA we use more vaccines, psychiatric drugs and painkillers than most industrialized countries. But we are not much healthier than our peers in the first world.

          • Nick Sanders

            “How many doctors study vaccines?”

            A lot.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#References

          • Daleth

            None so blind as those who will not see.

          • Daleth

            Oh and PS, I looked for that 1994 article you mentioned (“Age Specific Incidence…”) on PubMed and on Google… can’t seem to find it. Care to post a link???

          • Katia

            The Tdap vaccine for teens came out in 2005. Your article is very out of date.

          • yugaya

            Hi Nick! Nice to see you again here!

            P.S. Do you know what brought on this return of the vaxxombies?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Probably the law changing in California

          • yugaya

            Oh I see. Is the government over there already kidnapping children in the middle of the night with police barging in on innocent antivaxx families in their sleep and chipping them, or are the authorities keeping it under wraps until they can come up with a better cover story?

          • Nick Sanders

            Thanks. 🙂 I’ve hung around, but have only had a little to say here an there since I don’t know much about childbirth.

            And no, not a clue. I also don’t know why they always zero in on that one article, either.

          • Cobalt

            “Why this post?” Is a good question. There are dozens of more recent posts on vaccines, including yesterday’s.

          • anotheramy

            I imagine this post got linked to a blog(s) a couple years ago and as antivaxxers are reading blogs, or googling, oops, I mean “doing their research” they followed the link to this article

          • Katia

            It always helps to look at the denominator. In an outbreak, there are more vaxed who get whooping cough simply because most people are vaccinated. But when you look at PERCENT of vaxed v unvaxed, it’s clear. You’re 25X more likely to get pertussis if you’re not vaxed.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, the rate of whopping cough has not been going up since the 80s. If you have a point why lie?

          • Diet dee

            see

          • Nick Sanders

            See what?

          • Diet dee

            sorry i tried to post a chart heres the link instead

            http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/surv-reporting.html

          • Nick Sanders

            Looks pretty damn flat to me.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          So, 400-500 children a year dying from one disease is acceptable to you? Hmmmm

          • Diet dee

            Compare that to heart disease or cancer that kills 100,000 per year and you will see that there are bigger fish to fry ( Better yet bake that fish to reduce your chance of getting heart disease or cancer)

          • Nick Sanders

            Two things:
            1. We already have the vaccines, and they work, so why should we throw them away?
            2. “Cancer” is not a singular disease. There are over 100 cancers that affect humans. Some of them are even vaccine preventable.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            We do not have to fry one fish at a time though.

          • Diet dee

            true but some people have valid concerns after seeing there relative suffer some adverse reactions. If you believe the risk is worth it get vaccinated. Others vaccinated on a different schedule or not at all. Once autism is cured or even understood maybe things will change

          • Nick Sanders

            And in the mean time, herd immunity falls to pieces.

          • Who?

            And just what do vaccines and autism have to do with each other? Oh that’s right nothing.

          • Diet dee

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

            aluminum and the rising rate of autism

          • Guestll

            Have you read anything other than the abstract, and more critically, do you know authored this dreck?

          • Guestll

            Do you understand how vaccines work?

            Why do I think, based on your link, that the answer is a resounding “no” ?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Who?

            SUV driving and consumption of organic food have also increased over that time. How do you know neither of those changes are implicated?

            And let’s skate right past the awkward fact that we are now looking for autism way more than we used to-perhaps those odd kids at school back in the day would be on the spectrum now?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Even in that paper you posted the authors admit that there is nothing more than a correlation that does not equal causation and explains basically nothing. Impact factor 3.5…

          • yugaya

            “some people have valid concerns after seeing there relative suffer some adverse reactions.”

            Some people should then:

            a) consult immunologists and vaccine specialist about what (documented) adverse reaction took place, why, and whether/how that impacts vaccinating their own children

            or

            b) learn to distinguish between power of (undocumented) adverse reaction anecdotes and power of scientific proof based on scientific methodology.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Autism has nothing to do with vaccination. Why are you moving the goalpost? I believe the risk of not vaccinating isn’t worth it. My daughter had a true adverse reaction. I am not even sure why they would make someone not want to vaccinate. It is extremely rare and temporary. It didn’t all the sudden make me not understand reality. Vaccinating on a different schedule is better than not vaccinating at all, but it just increases the risk to your child with no benefit whatsoever.

          • Diet dee

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207561

            Delay in vaccination associated with lower incidence of asthma

          • Guestll

            Again – did you read it in full, or just the abstract?

          • Guestll

            If you haven’t read it in full, here it is. Come back and tell us what you think, please. http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(07)02379-2/fulltext

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            We haven’t used the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the US since 1998. Also, this study is old and the results have never been replicated.

          • Mike Stevens

            So your argument now is that vaccination is good, just that it should be delayed a little bit?
            Isn’t that a bit of a U-turn from your previously rabid antivaccine stance?

            PS: This is what the study showed:
            “One of the main reasons for delayed immunization is the presence of fever or an infection in the child.31, 32, 33, 34 Fever during the first year of life has been shown to decrease the likelihood of childhood asthma and atopy.2”
            So delayed vaccination is not the “cause” of the reduced asthma incidence, it is just a coincidental maker for a child having had an infection in childhood.

            Understand now, or are the multisyllable words too hard for you?

          • Diet dee

            Oh vaccine do work! but serious side effects happen also. I believe that we should have choice without being penalized by the state. I only stated that the delay was associated with less asthma.

            Different countries have alternative schedules and outcomes as a result.

            North American childhood immunization schedules, which normally include 2-month, 4-month, and 6-month intervals, were introduced in the 1950s to increase overall immunization rates. The rationale for continuing to use this schedule is to provide protection in early infancy as quickly as possible to the greatest number of infants.28 However, immunization schedules vary by country subsequent to differences in infectious disease prevalence, public demand, and the level of health care. The childhood immunization schedule in Japan recommends that children be immunized with 3 doses of DaPT between 6 to 9 months after birth; first doses can be given no earlier than 3 months.43 It is interesting to note that between 1975 and 1988, Japan did not recommend immunizing children under 2 years of age.38 In 1982, Japan’s asthma prevalence rate in children was approximately 3.2%, and by 2002 it was 6.5%. Although these statistics represent a doubling of asthma over a period of 20 years, these prevalence rates are well below those seen in North America.44 However, the administration of pertussis vaccine in Japan to children after 2 years of age resulted in higher rates of pertussis than in children given the vaccine at an earlier time.38, 45

            Japan vaccinated later in life and has a lower asthma incidence BUT they had a higher incidence of pertussis. No easy choices . But would still like to be able to make the choice.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            You could say the same thing about smoking cigarettes and we all have how healthy they are

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Say what same thing? That the number of serious side effects from smoking is too small to be seen on a pie chart? Are you sure? Or are you just making shit up again, as usual?

          • Diet dee

            No one gets cancer from one cigarette. It takes years of smoking to do that. The vaccine court had guidelines for reimbursement. One of those is that reactions must occur within 72 hours. But what if your toddler shows adverse reactions 76 hours later. Then its not the vaccines fault. Just bad genes. Maybe someone should follow VAX and un vaxxed children for 7 years and see what differences show up.

          • Wren

            “had guidelines”?

            Citation please.

          • Nick Sanders

            Pretty sure this is what dee was talking about:
            http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

            Like I said, she got it’s meaning backwards.

          • Nick Sanders

            The timeline depends on the even and vaccine in question, some go out as far 42 days, or even six months if the recipient is immunodeficient.

            And those guidelines? You have them backwards. You don’t get your claim thrown out if you are outside them, you automatically win if you are inside them. Literally all you have to do is show you got condition Y within a certain timeframe of being given vaccine X and boom, you instantly get money, no other evidence of any kind needed.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
          • Daleth

            Dietdee, I don’t think you understand how it works. Here’s how:

            If your kid experiences a particular symptom within the timeframe set forth by the vaccine court, then they presume the reaction was caused by the vaccine–meaning you don’t need to present any more evidence; you win the case.

            If your kid experiences that symptom outside that time frame, then you have to present more evidence before you can win the case. You can still win, you just need more evidence that the vaccine is what caused the symptom.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, you really couldn’t.

          • Wren

            Just so you know, the UK vaccinates for pertussis at 2, 3 and 4 months. I was thrilled to be able to get my babies fully vaccinated for that 2 months earlier than my American friends and family.

            Yes, different countries use different schedules and make different choices on which vaccines to use. Interestingly, none of those seems to affect the oft claimed side effects like autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            “blah blah”…furious handwaving…”blah blah”

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Well…maybe. Consider this comment on the article:
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674908013110
            Also from the article you linked to: “It is premature to make recommendations until these findings have been
            confirmed with the DaPT vaccine, and the benefits of altering
            immunization schedules need to be weighed against the risks.”
            In other words, the authors of the work you linked to do not believe that their data suggest that changing the vaccine schedule would be a good idea based on the possible increased risk of asthma, especially since the causal link appears dubious.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Autism has nothing to do with vaccination. Vaccines do have side effects and some people can not tolerate certain vaccines. People with medical problems that make it impossible for them to be fully vaccinated are MUCH safer if those who can be vaccinated are vaccinated so that the disease prevalence in the population is lower.

          • SporkParade

            There are bigger fish to fry ONLY because of routine childhood vaccination. That’s the thing about widespread vaccination and herd immunity – they stop death by stopping people from catching the disease in the first place.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            We now live long enough to catch cancer and heart disease. A person with a dicky heart would have been at higher risk to die from a random illness before anyone knew his/her heart was malfunctioning. Cancer always happened, but there’s a reason why they don’t generally screen 30 year olds, because most forms mostly affect people old enough to be a grandparent. Yes, part of it is lifestyle, but both labels are way more complicated than that. Besides, who wouldn’t want to make *sure* their precious only child loose his sight, his hearing, or possibly even his life? Vaccine injury, Ha!
            My husband and I both have disease injuries! Or are you pro-eugenics and say that his blindness and my deafness mean we are weak vessels. Well duh. Babies are not strong. I’ve barely been ill since my ear stopped working. My mother in law jokes that she kept praying her baby “would be healthy; I should have been more specific.” He’s healthy as a horse.

          • Chris

            Medical errors kill 400,000 people every year. Is that acceptable to you? Hmmmm

          • Nick Sanders

            What does it have to do with vaccines?

          • KarenJJ

            Well if you get your vaccines, you are less likely to get a serious illness like tetanus etc and end up in hospital for months relying on doctors to care for you.

          • Chris

            Doctors far kill more people than measles ever could.

          • Nick Sanders

            Aww, how cute.

          • Chris

            Bless your heart.

          • yugaya

            So… we scrap medical science and all the doctors altogether, clearly they are doing more harm than good, and besides, everyone knows that good nutrition prevents everything. Then, having accomplished such a milestone in our civilisational development, we’ll want to get rid of cars, aeroplanes, electricity, and all those other evil things that prevent us from being our natural bests exactly the way Mother Nature designed us. Our natural immunities would blossom.

            The problem with that nirvana of yours is that the infectious diseases would be as deadly in such a future as they are now in our “overmedicalized” world, any you’d get a rather short stint in your dream cave before you and most of your family succumbed to one.

          • Chris

            No. We improve our medical system, which includes removing liability protection from vaccine manufacturers and doctors for vaccines. Then there will be an incentive for vaccine manufacturers to make safer vaccines that are not filled with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, and aborted human fetal DNA, and so that doctors have an incentive to carefully look at the possible risks of vaccines that have not been properly tested for long term side effects, before injecting and sometimes damaging children.

          • Wren

            Please compare today’s vaccines to those of 40 years ago, with particular empahsis on your claims of unsafe ingredients. I would imagine that is an easy task if you have “done your research”.

            If you have an answer, you could also address my earlier point that if you believe that toxicity at any dose makes an ingredient unacceptable there is absolutely nothing that should ever be ingested or injected. Your saline placebo you would like to test against could also be toxic at a high enough dose.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Chris, after doing so extensive research, could you please provide at least a single citation from a peer reviewed journal that demostrates anything that you are claiming? It gets boring without reading nothing about real science.

          • Chris

            Here is a document discussing virus shedding by those newly vaccinated with live virus. There are numerous peer reviewed studies referenced in this presentation.

            http://www.nvic.org/vaccine-strain-virus-shedding-and-transmission.aspx

          • Montserrat Blanco

            That is not what I asked for. I asked for YOU to provide a single citation to back up your claims. I am guessing that:
            A) you do not know how to provide a citation
            B) you do not know how to read a scientific paper
            C) you have no idea what an impact factor is

            Remember: clinical trial, peer reviewed journal, impact factor higher than 7, demostrating that someone has got measles from a recently vaccinated person due to “shedding”.

            As you have done so extensive research on the topic it shouldn’t be difficult.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Mike Stevens

            Assuming shed vaccine virus might “infect” another person, could you explain what is your exact objection to that?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            This is a really funny comment.

            Yeah, anti-vaxxers are always talking about how great it is to get the disease. But now, vaccines are bad because someone might actually catch the disease?

            Just goes to show, all these attempted arguments against vaccines are nothing but rationalization

          • Chris

            Every time there is an outbreak, the first people blamed by the media are the tiny percentage of unvaccinated people, when in fact the millions of people newly vaccinated with live virus are shedding viruses for weeks or even months and are more likely to be the source of an outbreak because of their high numbers.
            Those newly vaccinated with live virus can endanger the immune compromised and the unvaccinated, so maybe the newly vaccinated are the ones who should be banned from public schools until there is evidence that they are no longer shedding and endangering others.
            If California wants to ban the unvaccinated from public school because of the potential to spread viruses, then they should also ban the newly vaccinated for the same reason.

          • Nick Sanders

            They did genetic analysis on the strain of measles that caused the recent outbreak. It was a wild strain, brought in by someone who had not been vaccinated. Name one documented instance of the vaccine strain being spread through shedding.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            This is the most fascinating part about the “shedding” claim.

            Anti-vaxxers pretend that it is some dirty secret being hidden by the CDC. What the CDC won’t tell you!

            When, in fact, the whole reason we KNOW about something like shedding is because of the medical research that has been carried out with support from places like the NIH and the CDC – you know, the government that is supposedly trying to suppress that information. And then it is published in the medical literature.

            Man, if the government didn’t want us to know about shedding, they are doing a piss-poor job of keeping it hidden.

            Of course, it’s not like any stupid anti-vax loon would ever have figured it out, because despite all the research that has been carried out into the possibility of shedding (we are talking about things like examining the poop of babies who have been vaccinated or lesions of people who get a rash from the vaccine), there are basically no examples where anyone anywhere has ever gotten sick from it.

            Anti-vaxxers would be smart to stay away from shedding, because, like pretty much every topic they try to get into, they are in way over their heads.

          • Chris

            It is known that those vaccinated with live virus can not only spread the virus they were vaccinated with, but the live virus can mutate and form recombinants with other viruses to form a wild strain.
            In addition, there have been “documented” cases and lawsuits of vaccine strain viruses infecting other. Most of the polio cases after the 70’s were caused primarily by live polio virus shedding.

          • Nick Sanders

            Source those claims.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It is known that those vaccinated with live virus can not only spread the virus they were vaccinated with, but the live virus can mutate and form recombinants with other viruses to form a wild strain.

            Wow, this is serious descent into fantasy land.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The majority, if not all, of outbreaks of measles in the US in the 21st century can be traced to an unvaccinated person who is the “patient zero” or vector who brings measles in from a country where it is endemic and spreads it around to others, mostly the unvaccinated, but also to a small number of children who were vaccinated but who had a suboptimal effect. There are no cases of virus “shedding” leading to measles epidemics in the US in the 21st century. Thus, unvaccinated people are “blamed” for what they did.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sorry, how exactly are those “shedding” vaccine strain viruses a cause of the disease outbreak?

            Can you cite one example of “shed” vaccine measles virus causing a measles outbreak?

            Do that (peer-reviewed science publication) and I’ll donate $1000 to a charity of your choice.

          • Chris

            Just because something is not “documented” does not mean it is not happening. Just ask the millions of aliens in this country who are not “documented.”

            Here is an example of just one of many “documented” cases of virus transmission to others by those newly vaccinated with live virus entitled “Brother-to-sister transmission of measles after measles, mumps, and rubella immunization” on pubmed.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2563426

          • Nick Sanders

            No abstract, no link to the full text, hell, nothing but a title, an author, and a supposed publication date in the Lancet.
            That’s hardly a source.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Just ask the millions of aliens in this country who are not “documented.”
            You talking about those little green men from Mars, or those “greys”?
            Remember, just because we haven’t documented them here, that doesn’t mean they aren’t all around us.

            PS: That case is not a case of transmission of vaccine-strain virus shed from a vaccinee causing “measles”, it is a case of someone who was previously vaccinated with MMR subsequently catching and transmitting wild-type measles virus. The vax isn’t 100% effective, you know…

            Care to have another go?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I am afraid none of the citations posted there follow the points that I asked for: peer reviewed journal, impact factor higher than 7, real clinical observation and not just “theoretical concerns”, measles.

            In any case Chris is not writing here anymore. Why? One wonders…

          • Chris

            I am touched. You missed me.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            So you want to make it harder for people who may have had an adverse effect from vaccinations to get compensation? Because that would be the practical outcome of “removing liability protection from vaccine manufacturers”. The current system allows people to be compensated when there is a suspicion that the vaccines could have had something to do with an adverse outcome. Proof is not required. If it went to the court system, proof would be required. Fewer cases would be awarded to the plantiffs because it is very difficult to prove injury. This is why the system is set up as it is in the first place: to make it easy on any potential victims.

          • Chris

            “This is why the system is set up as it is in the first place: to make it easy on any potential victims”

            The reason the system was set up was because the supreme court ruled that vaccines were “unavoidably unsafe”. Every vaccine maker would have been sued out of existence by now with all the damages caused, without the blanket liability protection. This blanket liability protection was bought and paid for with lobbying and donations to politicians foundations and election funds.

            According to the CDC only 1% to 10% of vaccine damages are reported to VAERS, so the damages are most likely 10 times to 100 times more than VAERS indicates.

            The vaccine court is also not “easy” for victims of damage. Only certain damages are recognized, there is no jury, just a panel of special masters who’s word is the final say, there is no process of discovery as in regular court proceedings, the process can take many years, the cost of lawyers to represent you in the vaccine court can be astronomical, 4 out of 5 claims are not even compensated, and those that are compensated have to settle for whatever the court determines is the fair amount, regardless of the actual expenses of the damaged victim or his/her parents. It’s definitely not easy.

            Remove the liability protection to the vaccine makers, and any that are not made bankrupt after being sued for all of the death and damages caused to victims will then have an incentive to make safer vaccines not filled with neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, bacterial contaminants, mycoplasma contaminants, and aborted human fetal DNA contaminants, and with proper long term human testing for side effects prior to mass injection of billions of people around the world.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You do know that anyone can claim any side effect and it goes into VAERS, right? Including two test cases where the writers claimed that the vaccine turned their children into the Incredible Hulk and Wonder Woman. The VAERS data, such as it is, is a ceiling, not a floor.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Unavoidably unsafe” does not mean what you think it means. And the NVICP does not work the way you claim it does.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I would have to agree that medical personnels’ errors, malpractice, and sometimes just making the wrong bet when there are two possible courses, each with risks kill or are partially responsible for the deaths of more people than measles currently does kill. However, according to the chart you posted earlier, measles killed about 70 people per 100,000 per year in the UK in the early 19th century. If measles went back to its “natural” state, it would kill about 252,000 per year, which is pretty similar to the number proported to be killed by medical errors, especially when you consider that the actual measured number in the study that the 400K number came from was 210,000 and the 400K was an estimate/guess due to predicted underreporting. So I would have to conclude that your statement that measles could never kill as many people as medical errors is false. And measles is only one disease.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Of course it is not. Why would you make such an illogical leap?

          • Cobalt

            What’s the death rate in the absence of doctors and modern medicine?

          • Chris

            True, but there is obviously room for much improvement in our medical system.

          • Wren

            What does that have to do with vaccination?

            Particularly given that not all commenters here share the same medical system?

          • Cobalt

            But until our medical system is absolutely perfect, and not just vastly better than the alternative, you’re not going to use it, right?

            Because that’s your vaccine stance.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            No, not at all. Deaths that are partially or completely due to medical errors are an issue that every hospital in the US and probably the world are addressing actively. Protocols are actively being developed to prevent errors, systems are put in place to prevent errors, and major effort is going into improving the quality of medical care.
            How many deaths from vaccine preventable illness will it take before the anti-vaxers reconsider their strategy?

        • fiftyfifty1

          400 people died per year? Of what disease? In which decade?

          In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year worldwide according to the WHO. And that’s just one illness.

          • sabelmouse

            can you not read?

          • Wren

            I believe fiftyfifty1 can read. The claim made is ridiculous if you read it as written. Example, “the decade before vaccines” is meaningless. Which vaccine? Which decade?

          • sabelmouse

            those numbers clearly mean measles, they are mentioned all the time and 50/50 understood that. and we know which decade too. plus she makes a distinction between 1st and 3rd world. come on, you’ve been around enough to know.

          • Wren

            I have no way of knowing what Diet dee knows. The use of “vaccine preventable diseases” rather than the much simpler “measles” tends to lead to the interpretation that Diet dee is parrotting numbers without actually knowing what they pertain to.

          • sabelmouse

            i’m familiar with dee.

          • Mike Stevens

            Who is he shilling for?

          • sabelmouse

            what i just said to 50/50. though i could have sworn that i knew you, but maybe you are actually a genuine poster as opposed to fanatic/shill.

          • Wren

            You believe you know me? From where?

            I have yet to meet a pharma shill or see any evidence of their existence online, but I can find plenty of anti-vaxers who make plenty of money from their anti-vax activities.

            Again, “measles” is much shorter and clearer than “vaccine preventable diseases” so not being specific is, at best, odd.

          • sabelmouse

            i might be harder for you to recognise shills because you’re sort of the same side but if you don’t recognise any there is something wrong, and maybe my first impression was right after all. thank you and good bye.
            ditto to your BS in biology.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I can recognize shills just fine, Andrew Wakefield, Dr. Tenpenny, Dr. Mercola, Mike Adams, Dr. Kelly Brogan. I could go on

          • Wren

            Oh, those I can recognise, but I would place them in the anti-vaxers who make money off of scaring others away from vaxing category, not pharma shills.

          • Diet dee

            I’m not aware of a patentable product that will protect you from measles. Plain old vitamin A ,C or cod liver old helps.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            Excluding vaccine I mean. The health nuts usually aren’t selling any measles cures

          • Nick Sanders

            Then why bring up patents? You can make ridiculous amounts of money without a patent.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Not unless you are vitamin A, Vitamin C, or Vitamin D deficient.

          • Nick Sanders

            What about horrible fishy smell deficiency?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            That’s the Vitamin D part.

          • Chris

            Here is a bigger picture chart showing that measles deaths reduced over 99% before the measles vaccine was introduced in 1968. Many factors were responsible for this long term trend of declining measles deaths which continued trending down after the measles vaccine was introduced, and better nutrition may have been one of those factors.
            http://healthimpactnews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/11/G11.4-UK-Measles-1838-1978.png

          • Nick Sanders

            1. That’s from the UK, not the US.
            2. Death is not the only thing the measles can do to a person, which you seem hell bent on ignoring.

          • Chris

            Silly me, you are right, it was the UK chart showing the measles dropped over 99% in the UK before the vaccine was introduced.

            Here is the US chart showing measles deaths declining over 99% in the US before the vaccine was introduced.

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RXRGd-_ZFy4/U6IWzEJOe2I/AAAAAAAABCU/eN6Cfc1i-a4/s1600/Measles+Mortality+1900-1984+-+NonLog+Scale.jpg

          • Nick Sanders

            And yet the incidence didn’t fall until vaccines were used.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Actually, it shows measles deaths dropping significantly before the introduction of the vaccine. It says nothing about the incidence. Mortality, unlike incidence, is strongly influenced by issues like overall health, access to medical care, nutritional status, etc. It’s not surprising that measles deaths started dropping in the early to mid 20th century when things like hollow bore needles for IV medication and fluid administration, antibiotics for secondary infection, and social changes that provide better living conditions to poor people became available. Fewer people died for the same reason that fewer people infected with ebola in the US and Europe died than people infected with ebola in Liberia. Now, what do you have as far as incidence?

          • Chris

            So, in other words, measles vaccines has reduced measles incidence, but can not take credit for saving very many lives, since the trend of measles death was already down 99% and most likely would have continued down without the measles vaccine.
            It is also highly likely that if deaths, a serious potential complication of measles, was dropping without the vaccine, then other serious side complications of having measles also dropped significantly before the vaccine, and would have continued dropping after the vaccine as well.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It is also highly likely that if deaths, a serious potential complication of measles, was dropping without the vaccine, then other serious side complications of having measles also dropped significantly before the vaccine,

            Well, ok, pneumonia is more treatable now than it used to be.

            But it’s a lot better to prevent pneumonia than to treat it.

          • Nick Sanders

            “So, in other words, measles vaccines has reduced measles incidence, but can not take credit for saving very many lives, since the trend of measles death was already down 99% and most likely would have continued down without the measles vaccine.”

            It was, at the time of introduction, infecting around 400,000 people a year in the USA. Even with the best of current medical care, it still kills 1 to 2 in 1,000 people it infects. That’s a bare minimum of 400 to 800 people saved a year, in the USA alone, assuming you somehow sent modern treatment back in time to the people 50 years ago.

            In just the USA, nevermind the third world where death rates are far higher, that’s 20,000 to 40,000 lives saved, at a very minimum, since the introduction.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            It is also highly likely that if deaths, a serious potential
            complication of measles, was dropping without the vaccine, then other
            serious side complications of having measles also dropped significantly
            before the vaccine,

            Not really. It’s more likely that serious complications that used to kill are now survivable. Thus, the morbidity may be going up while the mortality goes down. That pattern has been seen in a number of diseases, though I don’t know if it’s been directly looked at in measles.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            That graph has something really wrong with it. Measles is a disease contracted mostly by children. Most adults are inmune to it either via vaccination (now) or because of a previous infection during childhood (1950’s and previous). If you take the total number of deaths they are going to be lower, mostly because american people were having less children. You need to compare the death rate by age. And that is a very different story. It is the same if you take prostate cancer deaths and compare the rate for total population in the USA and in… Cameroon. Death rate will be much higher in the USA, just because prostate cancer is a disease that affects old men and the USA has a lot of old men compared to Cameroon which has a younger population.

          • Nick Sanders

            That isn’t even a graph of US data, it’s from the UK. Using it to refute my graph is apples to oranges.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I did not realize it was from the UK. In any case my point is still valid. If you look at death rates for diseases with very specific age spams you need to look at rate by people of a certain age, just to make sure that you are not seeing an effect of very different populations distributions.

            Just something to add to your very valid point.

          • Mike Stevens

            Why do you keep showing charts of measles deaths, when you have had it explained to you numerous times that the relevant data set to look at vaccine efficacy and the decline of a disease is the incidence?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Because he thinks the only problem with measles is death. Deafness, ICU admissions due to pneumonia, long term neurological defects mean nothing to Chris.

          • Wren

            I’m guessing, and it is only a guess, that it is because death is the only outcome from the diseases Chris feels might be worse than the horrific side effects of vaccination. If you take that as true, then obviously the rate of death is the only thing worth considering.

          • Mike Stevens

            I guess my question was rather rhetorical – I am sure Chris knows full well why the antivaxers always use “death” as their outcome of choice.
            That is because it is not directly linked to the beneficial effects of vaccination, and is influenced by many other things (enabling the antivaxers to make their specious/spurious claims of “vaccines did not save us – deaths were already in decline!”).
            Quite mischievously dishonest of them.

          • Chris

            Oh. I thought the main miracle of vaccines was that they supposedly save lives (reduce death), not just reduce incidents of fever and rash, etc.. Well, measles deaths had already reduced 99%, and the trend in deaths was already down before the measles vaccine.

          • Nick Sanders

            You think measles is just a mild fever and rash? 1 in 4 people who caught it at the Disneyland outbreak were hospitalized. HOSPITALIZED.

          • Chris

            If you are going to quote me, quote my exacts words rather than adding in your own. That is very dishonest, like most of your posts.
            Many people go to the hospital or take their children to the hospital when they have a high fever and/or rashes. It is the prudent thing to do.

          • Nick Sanders

            That wasn’t a quote. You can tell because I didn’t put quotation marks around it. I was addressing your implication.

            And I’m not talking about worried parent taking a quick trip to the emergency room out of fear. I’m talking about full admittance because they were seriously, grievously ill.

            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/22/the-past-and-present-rebuke-antivaccinationists-who-claim-measles-is-benign/

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I, and millions of other had measles when we were kids, we had a fever and rash, but did not require hospitalization.

            You didn’t. Maybe no one you know did, but thousands of children did require hospitalization and not all of those were discharged alive and intact. I don’t understand why you’re so resistant to the idea of preventing a potentially deadly and debilitating illness this way.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            but thousands of children did require hospitalization and not all of those were discharged alive and intact.

            Fuck’em. Chris survived unharmed, so who cares about anyone else?

          • Chris

            I am not against preventing disease. I am not anti vaccine. I am anti-neurotoxin, anti-carcinogen, anti-viral contaminant, anti-bacterial contaminant, anti-anti mycoplasma contaminant, anti-aborted human fetal DNA contaminant, and anti-experimenting on children without proper prior long term testing.
            I am also pro-truth, and pro-choice.

          • Nick Sanders

            For someone “pro-truth”, you sure don’t like telling it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Yes you are. If you are against vaccination then you are against preventing disease. The other babble is just your self justification. If you actually had any connection to reality or interest in the facts, you would at least have dropped the thoroughly debunked autism claim. And what the heck is an anti-anti-mycoplasma contaminant?

          • Nick Sanders

            Since you’ve added to your post after my first reply, I’m replying again.

            “I, and millions of other had measles when we were kids,”

            And I didn’t. I almost certainly don’t know anyone my age who did. And that’s a wonderful thing.

          • Mike Stevens

            They do reduce deaths, but deaths are also reduced by other factors (medical care, iron lungs etc), so it is an imperfect marker of the true effect of vaccination on disease.

            However, if you wish you can still look at how vaccines managed to reduce deaths in something like measles….from an average of 450 deaths per year they dropped to virtually zero (ie a >99% decline).

            Now I happen to think saving 450 lives a year is worthwhile.
            Pity you don’t.

          • Chris

            First of all, you have no solid evidence that 450 lives are saved a year with the measles vaccine. Only assumptions, which may be inaccurate considering the trend in measles death was already solidly down before the vaccine was introduced.
            We also do not know the true impact of vaccine damage since only 1% to 10% of any vaccine damage is even reported to VAERS. Without all of the information it is hard to judge if the benefits outweigh the risks of the neurotoxins, carcinogens, viral contaminants, bacterial contaminants, mycoplasma contaminants, and aborted human fetal DNA being injected into our children without any prior proper long term testing for side effects.

          • Nick Sanders

            “First of all, you have no solid evidence that 450 lives are saved a year with the measles vaccine.”
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3931045

            “aborted human fetal”

            Are you ever going to explain your strange obsession with this?

          • Wren

            It sounds scary.

          • Mike Stevens

            Looks to me like the deaths had plateaued out at around 400-450 each year in the 1950s to 1960s.
            Until vaccine was introduced in 1963, when deaths fell precipitously, that is.

            Only 3% of reports to VAERS were found to be definitely due to the vaccine when medically investigated. The vast majority are spurious.

          • ciaparker2

            It would be the rare death from vaccine reaction which could not conceivably have been caused by something else. A heart attack could mean that the child had an undiagnosed heart weakness, a SIDS death is just one of those mysterious events which has no cause. A fever that the child was already incubating an infection before the vaccine. Seizures? Genetic propensity manifesting.

            But in reality most of these events WERE caused by vaccines. Parents must make the decision very cautiously and in full awareness that the true dimensions of vaccine damage are being concealed and denied by the entire medical establishment.

            Yes, the number of measles deaths had plateaued by 1960: 450 deaths a year out of four million cases, one in 10,000. Every parent must know that if he keeps a child with measles in bed well hydrated, gives him 20,000 IU of vitamin A in two doses, gives him NO fever reducers, homeopathic bryonia if the rash is slow to appear, homeopathic euphrasia if symptoms are severe, three weeks recuperation time from the day the rash appears, that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a previously healthy, well-nourished child will have a disabling or fatal case of measles.

            We can play with figures as much as we like, but we don’t HAVE accurate figures on how often vaccine reactions occur and how often they are disabling or fatal. We know a LOT of children now have autism, seizure disorders, and autoimmune diseases, far more than before the vaccine epidemic began around 1990.

            Most parents if they knew the facts would take their chances with natural measles.

          • Wren

            In reality these were caused by vaccines? Proof? Oh wait, you have none and have already tried to wave that fact away.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Can you please provide a citation from a double blind clinical trial published on a peer reviewed journal with an impact factor of 7 or higher than demonstrates any of your claims? I am especially interested in those regarding homeopathy.

            In case you do not and after reading the measles vaccines trials yes, my son is getting the vaccine and not taking his chances with the disease.

          • ciaparker2

            You’re not interested in anything I say. And it is your right at this time to give your son the vaccine. I would never take the chance with my daughter. I had measles myself, as well as everyone in my family, and we have also all been severely damaged by vaccines, so it is clear what my choice will always be.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            No, I am very interested. The issue is that there is absolutely no evidence that homeopathy is going to change the course of measles or the rate of complications. Vitamin A can help, especially to children that suffer a deficiency (extremely unlikely on a developed country) but the vaccine is better. Read Sudfeld et al. Int J Epidemiol. 2010. Impact factor of 9 to find out a good metaanalysis about the reduction in deaths with the vaccine and the vitamin A treatment.

            So, as you have nothing to back up your claims yes, I am vaccinating my son. And by the way I had measles as a kid and almost died.

          • ciaparker2

            Did you stay in bed until the end of the fever, and quiet at home for three weeks from when the rash appeared, to allow the immune system time to recover? Measles pneumonia is more likely in those who don’t stay quiet in bed. Not even baths or showers should be allowed until the fever is gone. Did you take vitamin A? No one had heard of that when I was a child and we all had measles, but it will prevent many complications, including eye damage. Did you take any fever reducers? That’s the worst thing you can do for any febrile illness, as it’s hampering the immune system’s efforts to combat the virus. Did you take homeopathic euphrasia? It would have helped. I didn’t do any of these things, my parents put me in a cool bath to lower my fever, which was a dangerous thing to do.

            I have read a study done in Africa, in which vitamin A halved the number of deaths. And one also in Africa, where children given fever reducers had a much higher death rate than those who didn’t. Dr. Gordon said last year to all his patients that measles is simply not a dangerous disease in healthy, well-nourished children, and such was our experience when I was growing up. And if you don’t get it, you don’t get the benefits: permanent immunity, a stronger immune system, ability to protect future infants, and protection from several diseases, mainly skin and bone, and several cancers. If you get the MMR you are taking your chances with a very dangerous vaccine which has indeed caused autism and bowel disease, as well as many other serious conditions, in many vaccine recipients.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Yes I stayed in bed and did not move. I did have vitamin A and antibiotics for the pneumonia. And yes, I recovered but I have asthma probably due to that. I have never ever felt worse in my life until I got really sick recently and needed a hospital admission with a ICU stay so now I know I was pretty sick. I was not living in poverty, I was a well fed and cared for child and at that time I still did not go to school not did I went to childcare. I was a stay at home child.

            But that does not matter. I asked you to provide a citation and you did not. I provided a citation myself and instead of commenting on it you are talking about something else. If you are going to keep on moving the goalposts and saying the same thing over and over I am sorry but I will not carry on and follow Box of Salt suggestion and stop answering to you.

          • Who?

            We need to co-opt the now ubiquitous ‘mansplaining’ and develop an elegant version of ‘antivaxsplaining’: increasingly outlandish and unsupported assertions about the illness experience of someone else; criticising parents and carers who were doing what was understood to be right at the time; sweeping statements hinting as to why you might have been a special case, suggesting it was all avoidable.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Yes. I guess I did not trust measles enough. Or my parents, since I was just three years old and did not know what measles was until I got it.

          • Wren

            Lovely example of the privilege of the anti vax movement. Many people cannot afford 3 weeks off to nurse a child with measles, or longer time than that if it hits multiple children in the family.

          • Who?

            Oh Wren, only poor people, and what does claparker know or care about them? They can’t even manage to feed everyone organic, biodynamic, non gmo ethically sourced local food, so what does it matter?

          • ciaparker2

            Well, children cause trouble, no way around it. But the choice is between a vaccine which in hundreds of thousands over the decades has caused autism, bowel disease, and other serious conditions in every system in the body, even death, and possibly getting a usually mild disease which confers many benefits, but must be respected and nursed appropriately. When I was a child and had it, along with 99% of American children, no one knew about vitamin A, the importance of NOT giving fever reducers, or of allowing a lengthy recuperation time. Neither I nor anyone my family ever knew had a serious, disabling, or fatal case of measles, despite the lack of the measures I suggested. But it’s also true, and also something we didn’t know, that measles depresses the immune system to an unusual degree, meaning that dangerous secondary infections can take hold in the weeks when the fever is gone and the patient feels well again. In most cases you could send the child right back to school and nothing would happen. it’s a precaution for those parents who wish to ensure the child’s safe recovery.

            Most parents would be able to find a relative or retired friend or neighbor who could stay with the sick or recovering child while they were at work. Again, every parent must consider the options carefully. But if he or she chooses the vaccine, they may regret it for the rest of their life when the child loses his language and interest in and ability to interact with other people, and regresses into autism and bowel disease, within days of the MMR (or other vaccines).

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “Most parents would be able to find a relative or retired friend or neighbor who could stay with the sick or recovering child while they were at work.”

            Sure.. ok..

            But.. what about newborns and pertussis?

            ciaparker2: “Pertussis is, again, only dangerous to infants in the first four or five months of life. These infants should be kept sheltered at home for their protection, and treated with high-dose vitamin C if they get it anyway.”

            Sure.. ok.. but, you also have stated this..

            ciaparker2: “No, it is your responsibility to keep her sheltered at home or with a single healthy caregiver for the first few months.”

            And the kicker to all of your nonsense..

            ciaparker2: “I hope my daughter will still have the opportunity to get measles and mumps: she has had pertussis and chickenpox, and I am happy she did.”

          • JJ

            1.Vaccines still don’t cause autism
            2.Some people really cannot get weeks of free childcare for their sick children and they don’t need to because:
            3.Vaccines are safe and effective

          • Nick Sanders

            “But the choice is between a vaccine which in hundreds of thousands over the decades has caused autism”
            No.

            “bowel disease”
            No.

            “and other serious conditions in every system in the body, even death,”
            No.

            “and possibly getting a usually mild disease which confers many benefits”
            http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

            “Most parents would be able to find a relative or retired friend or neighbor who could stay with the sick or recovering child while they were at work.”

            ‘Oh, just offload the problems from your irresponsibility onto someone else. Who cares that the child is suffering and you are taking time out of other people’s lives without asking them, at least you don’t have to be inconvenienced.’
            What a load of selfish, and privileged, crap.

          • ciaparker2

            No. It is selfish to say that you just can’t handle the problem of nursing a sick child, so you’re willing to take the huge chance of disabling him for life with a vaccine.
            The reason there is an unprecedented pushback in California against a vaccine mandate, the reason that about eight states so far have had to throw out the vaccine companies’ proposed vaccine mandate bill due to public outcry, is that there are HUGE numbers of people who have SEEN vaccine damage occur, SEEN normally-developing children regress into autism within days of the MMR or other vaccines, SEEN their babies screaming with vaccine encephalitis, later to be diagnosed with autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            “the huge chance of disabling him for life with a vaccine”
            Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

            ” is that there are HUGE numbers of people who have SEEN vaccine damage occur, SEEN normally-developing children regress into autism within days of the MMR or other vaccines, SEEN their babies screaming with vaccine encephalitis, later to be diagnosed with autism.”

            There are not. And I’m sick of listening to you lie through your teeth.

          • sabelmouse

            absolutely right. what a culture we live in though where people can’t take care of sick children. i grew up with that, the excuse was post war rebuilding.

          • Fallow

            HAAAA POST WAR REBUILDING IS JUST SOME RIDICULOUS “EXCUSE”? Jesus Christ, where is my popcorn? This is delightful.

          • sabelmouse

            do you even understand what i am talking about?

          • Nick Sanders

            Do you?

          • Oh yeah, because staying in bed for three weeks (with a risk of encephalitis, pneumonia, and/or death) is so much better than a quick needle jab. Why are you discounting the suffering of a bedridden child, even if they do recover fully? Are you a sadist, to force a child to suffer so when they didn’t have to?

          • Who?

            Because it won’t happen to claparker’s child, don’t you know? Only to the child of unbelievers, like us, or little brown children in poor and faraway countries. Hell, those kids are hardly real! What’s a bit of made up suffering by people who don’t even exist in claparker’s world?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Are you a sadist, to force a child to suffer so when they didn’t have to?

            That’s exactly what I’ve said about those who don’t get the chicken pox vaccine. I don’t CARE that the chicken pox doesn’t kill all that many. It’s still worth avoiding, just because it typically sucks, and it is easily avoidable with vaccine.

            There is absolutely NO legitimate comparison that can be made in favor of natural chicken pox. Even if you take the standard bad side effects of the vaccine, they are mild compared to typical or even mild presentation of the chicken pox.

          • Proponent
          • Proponent

            Montserrat Blanco: “And by the way I had measles as a kid and almost died.”

            ciaparker2: “Did you stay in bed until the end of the fever, and quiet at home for three weeks from when the rash appeared, to allow the immune system time to recover? Measles pneumonia is more likely in those who don’t stay quiet in bed.”

          • Katia

            Always with the old wives’ tales, eh cia? The only one with any truth to it is the Vitamin A story. The rest is bunk, bunk, bunk.

          • Fallow

            Charming, your well of bottomless compassion extends all the way to implying that Montserrat Blanco’s parents CAUSED measles to be serious by not using fake medicine. You’re a gem.

          • Nick Sanders

            “I have read a study done in Africa, in which vitamin A halved the number of deaths.”
            Because there is an epidemic of Vitamin A deficiency in Africa. Famine does that. There are very few people with Vitamin A deficiency in the US.

            “Dr. Gordon said last year to all his patients that measles is simply not a dangerous disease in healthy, well-nourished children, ”
            Then he is either an idiot or a liar.

            “And if you don’t get it, you don’t get the benefits: permanent immunity, a stronger immune system,”
            That is quite literally exactly what a vaccine gives you.

            “and protection from several diseases, mainly skin and bone, and several cancers.”

            Source that shit.

            “If you get the MMR you are taking your chances with a very dangerous vaccine which has indeed caused autism and bowel disease, as well as many other serious conditions, in many vaccine recipients.”

            Bullshit.

          • Nick Sanders

            Quite frankly, I don’t believe you.

          • Box of Salt

            Montserrat Blanco,
            FYI: here is some background information on whom you have engaged in conversation.

            https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/the-weird-and-confusing-world-of-ciaparker/

            Continue at your own risk. She’s not a fence-sitter; she’s been dug in to her anti-vaccine position for years.

          • Mike Stevens

            We do indeed know the frequency of serious vaccine reactions Cia. They are extremely rare.
            We also know that vaccines do not cause the things you imagine they do (SIDS, autism, epilepsy, obesity, asthma etc)

            The benefits of vaccination hugely outweigh the possible harms.
            That is what most parents realise (well, 95% of them anyway, those who can think for themselves and rationally assess risk versus benefit)

          • Nick Sanders

            400,000 not 4 million.

            “Every parent knows”? What is this nonsense?

            “it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a previously healthy, well-nourished child will have a disabling or fatal case of measles.”

            And it is several orders of magnitude less likely they’ll have a problem from the vaccine.

          • ciaparker2

            Chris is right, all the infectious diseases had plummeted in mortality after the nineteenth century, and, had they not been interrupted by the advent of vaccines, would almost undoubtedly have continued to do so. And mortality and disability are the important things, not incidence. The immune system REQUIRES experience with disease in order to become and remain strong and competent, and getting measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, and pertussis were excellent opportunities to do so.

          • Wren

            Or an excellent chance to die.

            Why have all of the vaccine preventable diseases evolved to be less virulent all at about the same time but diseases we do not have vaccines for have remained or increased in virulence?

            Even if that were the case and they all magically became less virulent and catching those viruses was somehow beneficial, what about vaccination for things like tetanus? Why refuse that one?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, deaths came down before vaccines – but that is a strawman argument because I nor any other vaccine supporter is arguing that they didn’t.

            What we point out is that the incidence of important infections did not decline just with improved hygiene and nutrition – these would be the diseases spread by close person to person contact and respiratory transmission – Measles, mumps, pertussis, diphtheria, chickenpox, polio, rubella pneumococcus, HiB etc.

            It took vaccination to impact on the prevalence and incidience of these diseases.
            By reducing incidence, vaccines reduced harms, and also reduced deaths further than they were able to go without vaccines.

            No child needs to get a life-threatening infection in order to help their immune system – there are millions of minor and harmless viruses and bacteris and other environmental antigens that can do that.

            PS: I would remind readers at this point that you Cia have previously said that 450 deaths from measles every year is “no big deal”.

          • Nick Sanders

            “The immune system REQUIRES experience with disease in order to become and remain strong and competent”
            Which is exactly what vaccines are.

          • JJ

            They reduce suffering as well. It’s nice to not be in a wheelchair, blind, deaf, scarred, hospitalized ect.

          • ciaparker2

            My reply from the other day is gone. No, the relevant consideration is decrease in deaths and disability caused, not the incidence. Measles is GOOD for most children to get.

          • ciaparker2

            Chris,
            The measles virus, like smallpox and the pertussis pathogen, and most viruses, declined in virulence after the nineteenth century. It’s in the interest of the viruses to do so, as it allows them to propagate more widely, and natural selection would favor the mutations which were less severe. While improved nutrition and less crowded living conditions helped, the crucial factor was the evolution of the virus itself.

          • Chris

            I agree. Just as there is evolution in nature, viruses are a part of nature and evolve as well.
            No one knows what impact, good or bad, mass vaccination may be having on the natural evolutionary process. We already know that the overuse of antibiotics had led to the rise of dangerous super bugs. What impact might mass vaccination have on viruses, which we know mutate and recombine with other viruses?

          • Nick Sanders

            “What impact might mass vaccination have on viruses”

            Extinction. And good riddance to them.

            “which we know mutate and recombine with other viruses”

            You keep saying this, but have not once actually backed it up.

          • Wren

            The patentable product that can protect you from measles is….vaccination!

          • Wren

            Your first impression? That you knew me? I find that highly doubtful, but you are clearly good at believing what you shoose despite the evidence. Am I still being accused of being a pharma shill too? If so, that check is very, very overdue.

            If your comment implies you also have a BS in biology, then you must understand how little you actually know compared to those who actually do the research.

          • Nick Sanders

            That implies that you would have a tough time identifying anti-science shills.

          • ciaparker2

            Sort of a giveaway if he says he’s never seen a pro-vaccine shill, and that anti-vaxxers make money from our anti-vax activities. I know I haven’t made a penny off of mine.

          • sabelmouse

            i agree. but you know how sometimes you think someone might just be well brainwashed but innocent, so to speak. i’ve gone back and forth with this one but i think my first impression was right after all.
            who do they [all of them] think that they are actually fooling?
            but i guess the cents add up and the tread gets spammed.
            is it just me or is this a particularly unpleasant one/lot.

          • Wren

            Antivaxers often attack pro-science people and post all the same (oft corrected) claims in similar ways. Obviously they are all shills.

            But, I do reckon few of the antivaxers actually make anything off of their comments. The big names, like Mercola, who have something to sell do but most are likely just ardent believers (fanatics is the word I believe you prefer sabelmouse). A lack of understanding of the science, distrust in the mainstream and the relative safety that comes from living in the developed world where most people are vaccinated reducing the chances of catching these diseases and good medical care is generally available if they are caught all combine to create antivaxers.

          • Marilyn Lachey

            The mere fact he/she claims they have yet to see evidence of shills on-line makes he/she a shill! I’ll tell you how I knew and many others found out: I innocently went on a forum posting my views politely and I was attacked. The vitriol I experienced was so bad; I couldn’t believe it! Many other innocent posters have experienced the same thing. It was an awful experience to say the least. Another poster told me not to worry or take it personally because they were shills. I researched astroturfers/shills and they all comment in the same way and use the same tactics; largely, logical fallacy arguments, spin, misrepresentation and they will attempt to discredit absolutely everything you say. If you post the long list of doctors, pediatricians, microbiologists, biochemists, whistleblowers, journalists; they will discredit and malign them all. Isn’t it odd how all these same qualified professionals are all quacks and dummies?? It’s safe to say about 90% of the vaccine defenders that post regularly on these forums are shills.

          • sabelmouse

            yes. i do like to give some of them the benefit of the doubt as some people are well brainwashed fanatics but the more replies i get the more certain i get.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Why do those numbers clearly mean measles? The quote does not say which. And if it doesn’t say measles, then the decade isn’t clear either. And 3rd world vs 1st world distinctions only matter to a point. Even atheists like myself find the line “Am I my brother’s keeper?” chilling (and telling).

          • sabelmouse

            i was referring to the 3rd world par. i admit i didn’t even think about the need to explain measles at the time because i’m so familiar with those numbers and measles are discussed above all else.
            probs the same thing happened to dee.
            we do this so much and so many posters/shills become so familiar it’s sometimes hard to remember that someone might be new.

          • Mike Stevens

            “i’m so familiar with those numbers”
            400 is not the number of deaths per year from measles prevaccine – that number would be 450.
            160 million is not the number at risk from measles each year – that number would be nearly 4 million.

            Why are you “familiar” with made-up numbers, exactly?

          • Mike Stevens

            Of course he can read.
            It is you that can’t.
            Explain where in the following comment the word “measles” appears then:
            “Vaccine preventable diseases tend to kill the very ill or malnourished
            in the 3rd world. About 400 people died a year in the decade before
            vaccines out of 160 million people”

          • Diet dee

            In the USA from measles

          • fiftyfifty1

            Ok, in the US, from measles. Although the sources I read (CDC) say closer to 500, and the population was only about half what it is now. For the sake of argument, let’s go on the low side (400), but let’s double the population, so 800 per year. Let’s knock off a couple hundred that might be able to be saved by the better medical care we have now. So 600 each year. And that’s just deaths. For every dead person, we have to figure in the 2 that live on with permanent brain damage. So 600 kids dead and 1,200 permanently severely damaged. And that’s just from the measles. We haven’t even figured in the mumps or rubella that come along in the same shot.

        • Proponent

          Diet dee: “Vaccine preventable diseases tend to kill the very ill or malnourished in the 3rd world.”

          And..

          Diet dee: “There is very little risk that an unvaccinated child posses to a school system.”

          Huh.. Germany is a 3rd world country?

          CBC News Health (Feb 24, 2015)

          “Toddler died of measles in Berlin”

          An 18-month-old boy has died of measles amid an outbreak in Berlin, a hospital in the German capital said Tuesday.

          An autopsy on the child, who wasn’t inoculated against measles, showed that he had an unspecified other disease as well but that wouldn’t have led to his death without the measles infection, the Charite hospital said.

          It is the first known death in an outbreak in which Berlin has recorded more than 570 cases since October.

          Officials believe the outbreak began with a child asylum-seeker from Bosnia. They said it spread to the wider population partly because immunization
          rates among over-45s are low, and younger adults also are at risk because many only received one shot instead of two, as is now recommended.”

          And.. just because it has not happened yet, as in; ‘hey, no one died here.. no big deal!’ … is no argument.

          At.. all.

        • demodocus’ spouse

          My husband is blind because his mother caught Rubella when she was pregnant with him. Everybody knows suburban Connecticut in 1975 was unsanitary and 3rd world-ish.

          • Wren

            Obviously. California in 1971 must have been too, given my next door neighbour’s daughter with serious effects from her mother catching rubella during pregnancy. Upper middle class areas of southern California were well known for their similarity to the third world in the early ’70s.

          • KarenJJ

            And in suburban Australia in the early 80s (a neighbour lost her hearing after her mother had rubella while pregnant).

        • Busbus

          In my family alone, there were a number of life-threatening complications due to vaccine preventable diseases. My uncle contracted mumps before his second birthday and developed meningitis (ie, inflammation of the brain) as a complication. He spent months in the hospital and had to relearn to walk and talk. My grandmother said that he had been a very exuberant toddler, wild and always laughing, but after the illness, he was serious and slow. He never went back to his previous personality. Another aunt of mine (different parents) almost died from the measles when she was a child. We’re talking Europe in the 60s and 70s, hardly 3rd world. Both of them would not show up in a statistic of deaths, but imagine the fear, pain and heartbreak it caused for them and their families.

        • Guestll

          …and then there was Olivia Dahl, well-fed, nurtured, affluent…but aside from that, I get what you’re saying. I mean, fuck it, most of the people who die are brown/not in my backyard, right?

          You guys always seem to think your privilege confers more protection than it does in reality. And your thinly veiled bigotry is gross.

        • Mike Stevens

          “About 400 people died a year in the decade before vaccines out of 160 million people.”

          Not so. If one adds up the number of deaths each year from the vaccine preventable diseases in the year prior to vaccines becoming available for them, the total of deaths in the USA comes to around 16,000 people in that year.
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000199

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      You are confused. They do study vaccines for safety more than they do any drug.

      • Chris

        That is not true. There are no long term double blind saline solution placebo safety tests for vaccines before they are injected into children.

        • KarenJJ

          That’s the only acceptable safety standard for you?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve found many vaccine denialists don’t understand positive control trials.

          • anotheramy

            I’m not anti-vax at all, but how are vaccines tested for safety? I’m not familiar with positive control trials.

          • Nick Sanders

            A postive control trial is what is done when there is already a known effective treatment for a condition, especially if it’s a condition that is dangerous to leave untreated. You still go through all the normal steps for a double blind study, but rather than giving the control group a placebo, you give them the currently used treatment. Then, when the test is over, you can look directly at whether or not the new drug works better or worse than the current standard of care, and if it’s side effects are milder or more severe.

          • anotheramy

            Thank you!

          • Nick Sanders

            Always glad to help someone who wants to learn. 🙂

          • Montserrat Blanco

            For safety testing you give the vaccine to healthy volunteers and monitor side effects for a period of time, depending on the vaccine usually about some months. If it is deemed safe you compare the new vaccine to the existing ones looking for efficacy and safety too in a much higher number of people. That is a phase III trial, the best standard for clinical research. Doctors that administer the vaccine and monitor side effects and efficacy and patients are blinded (they do not know what each patient is receiving, if the new or the old vaccine). Side effects are monitored as well. If it is effective and safe the Pharma Company might file for registration of the new one and the new vaccine will get approved for human use if the FDA considers the data about safety and efficacy enough. Once the vaccine is approved and sold any doctor that sees a patient with what he/she considers to be a side effect from the vaccine that has not been described before can contact the regulatory board in their country (Excuse my lack of knowledge about the name in the USA, I have only worked in Europe) and they will investigate that.

            The system has evolved a lot since the thalidomide years and it works really well. Vaccines and drugs follow those standards. Supplements do not.

          • Chris

            The positive controls in many cases contain the same neurotoxins, carcinogens, and/or viral contaminants as the vaccine being tested.

          • Mike Stevens

            Care to cite one single example of such a trial, Chris, or are you going to admit you are talking out your posterior yet again?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            They contain everything that is not immunological. Then you also have to test them against the adjuvant if it has one to prove the adjuvant is not causing the only immune reaction.

          • Who?

            Unless of course they are wanting to chug down supplements, which Big Supplement is too persecuted to do such tests on.

            Which ignores the fact that Big Supplement runs a very profitable industry, most of the big players are related to Big Pharma, and why bother testing when people will buy your snake oil just because they will?