The extraordinary conceit of being an anti-vaxxer

Arrogant man

In the past week readers of this blog have been treated to a display of mindblowing egotism on the part of anti-vaxxers.

A comment thread on a post dating back to 2009 blew up (1800 comments and counting) when anti-vaxxers invaded, and it’s hard to imagine a crew of people displaying a greater level of stupidity and ignorance than those who have parachuted in to share their “wisdom” with the rest of us.

That led me to the following reflection:

When it comes to anti-vax advocacy, I understand the lack of basic knowledge of immunology, science and statistics.

I understand the impact of the Dunning Kruger effect whereby the incompetent are unable to recognize their own incompetence.

I even understand the outsize fear of corporate terrorism.

But what I don’t understand it the gargantuan conceit of people who imagine they know more than all the immunologists, pediatricians and public health officials in THE WORLD.

When it comes to the benefits of vaccination, there is rare unanimity across scientific disciplines and across national borders. Nearly every immunologist in every country promotes vaccination as life saving and safe; nearly every pediatrician in every country recommends vaccination as the best, most effective form of preventive care in existence; nearly every epidemiologist in every government and health organization views vaccination as one of the greatest public health victories of all time.

How conceited do you have to be to imagine that you, a lay antivaxxer, know better?

Very, very, very conceited.

Let’s review the history of laypeople making great scientific discoveries that overturn existing knowledge.

How many times has that happened in the 20th and 21st Centuries? Zero, zip, nada. As far as I know, there has never been even a single incidence of a layperson overturning widely accepted scientific consensus.

Let’s review the history of laypeople negating the discovery of a Nobel prize winner?

That’s never happened, either.

Let’s review the 200+ year history of anti-vaccine advocacy.

Anti-vaxxers have a perfect record! They’ve never been correct even once.

How arrogant do you have to be imagine that, despite the fact that you and your anti-vax colleagues have never been right about anything, suddenly you’re right about vaccine additives, or purported lack of benefits, or purported side effects.

Very, very arrogant indeed.

I’ve written before about the egotism of anti-vaxxers:

This is what is comes down to for most anti-vax parents: it’s a source of self-esteem for them. In their minds, they have “educated” themselves. How do they know they are “educated”? Because they’ve chosen to disregard experts (who appear to them as authority figures) in favor of quacks and charlatans, whom they admire for their own defiance of authority. The combination of self-education and defiance of authority is viewed by anti-vax parents as an empowering form of rugged individualism, marking out their own superiority from those pathetic “sheeple” who aren’t self-educated and who follow authority.

But it’s one thing to imagine that you’re smarter than other parents; it’s another thing entirely to imagine that you’re smarter than MDs and PhDs. The former is narcissistic but possible; the latter is so egotistical as to defy belief.

I have a pro-tip for anti-vaxxers:

I am a medical professional. I have a college degree in biochemistry, a medical degree, have completed 4 years of internship and residency and cared for thousands of patients. Yet when I don’t understand a medical recommendation outside my specialty, my first assumption is that it is my understanding that is faulty, not the recommendation. I search the primary scientific literature for the latest studies and scour the relevant textbooks and professional society guidelines for the rationale. Invariably my understanding of the subject is deepened. I learn something new.

That goes double for you.

When you don’t understand a medical recommendation, it’s YOUR understanding that’s faulty, not the medical recommendation.

To imagine otherwise is to display stupendous conceit.

2,030 Responses to “The extraordinary conceit of being an anti-vaxxer”

  1. patulat
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  2. patulat
    October 19, 2016 at 3:30 pm #

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  3. Pau Stud
    August 7, 2016 at 1:48 am #

    When I heard some anti vaxxer friend of ours mention double blind placebo testing I pretty much gave up the discussion except to ask if she thought it was a good idea to give people fake vaccines. You have to be a certain kind of stupid to think giving placebos is a good idea instead of the real vaccine. The only question I have is in how to respond to these pictures of kids they say just turn autistic overnight after a vaccine. I figger there is just a law of averages but it’s pretty difficult being rational against these images and videos and sad stories.

    • Right To Know
      September 10, 2016 at 1:08 pm #

      Interesting that the “placebo” for the Gardisil Vaccine was 625mcg of aluminum. Yes, they gave a “fake” vaccine, laced with the same amount of aluminum as in in the Gardisil vaccine.

      First, aluminum is a neurotoxin. Let’s make that clear. So why initiate a “placebo” group with 625mcg of aluminum? So that at the end of the study they could say there were no more “reactions” in the Gardisil group, than the placebo group. There WERE neurological incidences in both groups. And currently young ladies are being damaged and maimed for life by this vaccine…a vaccine that did not have the proper testing before it’s release.

      I’m sure you had no idea that things like have been going on, but alas, it is true. And this, kind sir, is just the tip of the iceberg. I encourage you to continue to dig into research like this. You might find you agree more with your friend that you think.

      • Nick Sanders
        September 11, 2016 at 1:20 am #

        So why initiate a “placebo” group with 625mcg of aluminum?

        Because the safety profile of aluminum has already been proven. What they were testing was the active ingredient, the inactivated viral strains. To get an accurate comparison of safety, and of efficacy because remember they were testing that too, every other ingredient needed to be included in the placebo.

        And currently young ladies are being damaged and maimed for life by this vaccine…a vaccine that did not have the proper testing before it’s release.

        Bullshit.

  4. Richard
    April 6, 2016 at 4:16 pm #

    I can’t access this. But good luck everyone. I don’t know if this is coming through.

  5. Richard
    April 6, 2016 at 4:13 pm #

    AMAZING: The moderator of this site erased all of my comments.

    • Azuran
      April 6, 2016 at 4:44 pm #

      Don’t flatter yourself, she didn’t erase anything. The site just always crash around 1800 comments. All the comments are still there, you just need to go directly through Disqus to see them.

      • Richard
        April 6, 2016 at 7:44 pm #

        I was not flattering myself, Mr. Trump.

  6. Richard
    April 5, 2016 at 3:50 pm #

    Well if anyone has anything to say other than a sarcastic or unsupported theory, let me know. Otherwise, signing off for now.

    • Sonja Henie
      April 5, 2016 at 3:52 pm #

      Thank God!

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 4:14 pm #

        I’m sure your ex husband would agree with my asessment of you.

        • MaineJen
          April 5, 2016 at 4:15 pm #

          Were you the one complaining about personal attacks? Good job on sticking the flounce, by the way. 24 minutes.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:20 pm #

            You attack, I counter. I’m not a passive idiot. You use sarcasm, so do I. So YES I complain that you don’t have an argument, just angry sarcasm. And I suppose you’ve a lot of exes to show for it.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 4:26 pm #

            Ouch. The most cutting personal attack…”I bet you don’t even have a boyfriend.”

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:32 pm #

            I admit when I’m beaten. Yes, you are much better at insults then I’ll ever be. You win.

          • Miss Anthropy
            April 5, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

            Woo hoo! Will you actually leave now?

          • Who?
            April 5, 2016 at 6:18 pm #

            He can’t. Hopeless addict.

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 7:38 pm #

            I love your handle.

            Also, I have some work to do, so I’m going to be offline for a little while – we need to announce these things, right?

          • Miss Anthropy
            April 5, 2016 at 7:48 pm #

            Thanks!

            Thank god you told me. I’d have been frantic with worry.

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 4:32 pm #

            How many people have you admonished for “silly” arguments/being “silly” people? Hypocrite. And a silly one at that.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm #

            I have applied the term silly to anyone who uses sarcasm or jokes or attacks. But here’s a differnt word for you. Jerk.

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm #

            Oh I see. You’re allowed to use attacks, but people who call you on it are jerks.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 4:45 pm #

            No no, I think I finally get it. Anyone who uses reasoned arguments, or gives stats which prove him wrong, is “attacking.” If one attempts to lighten the mood with humor, one is “silly.” And finally, if you call him on his BS, you are a “jerk.”

          • Who?
            April 5, 2016 at 6:08 pm #

            I think you’ve nailed it.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm #

            When exactly did I attack ANYONE who didn’t attack me; you for instance. I’m a “hypocrite” who is “silly”. When you go back to using your arguments and not your attacks, then we can talk like human beings.

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 4:51 pm #

            Richard, I have no desire to talk to you, and even less to listen to your ridiculousness. I’m seriously wondering if you’re on break from seventh-grade science class (except I know a lot of seventh-graders who are much more scientifically savvy than you are).

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 5:46 pm #

            Probably not passive……..

          • kellymbray
            April 10, 2016 at 5:08 pm #

            I would say quite active. He really works at it and takes pride in a job well done.

        • Sonja Henie
          April 5, 2016 at 4:23 pm #

          LOL! And you’re so frigging sanctimonious.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 6, 2016 at 10:11 am #

            To add: Just how do you know I have an ex? Were you trolling my posts or something?

          • kfunk937
            April 6, 2016 at 10:18 am #

            Creepy, or just rude? Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

        • Miss Anthropy
          April 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm #

          This from the man who repeatedly complains he is being insulted.

    • Mom2Many
      April 5, 2016 at 3:53 pm #

      It’s okay, you really don’t need to tell us when you are signing off. Most of us just come and go as we please, nobody really cares.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 4:15 pm #

        Boy, I can’t even leave without getting an insult. You guys must have really good arguments if that’s all you know.

        • Miss Anthropy
          April 5, 2016 at 6:33 pm #

          Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

          See if you can guess who I’m insulting and how.

        • Mom2Many
          April 5, 2016 at 6:36 pm #

          Richard. Where is the insult in my comment? I just pointed out that most of us pop in and out without needing to say ‘be right back’. Now if I wanted to insult you in my original comment, I would have added something about your self-importance that you believe we would miss you and would begin wondering where you went to, but I refrained from that, and simply gave you a head’s up that signing out like you did is not usual practice here. This site gets plenty of comments without cluttering it up with all of us posting a ‘be right back’.
          I’m sorry you saw insult in that.

          • kellymbray
            April 10, 2016 at 5:07 pm #

            “would begin wondering where you went to”

            More likely breathing a sigh of relief.

      • Who?
        April 5, 2016 at 6:07 pm #

        He can’t stick it.

        • Charybdis
          April 5, 2016 at 6:21 pm #

          Oh, he can, just not in the fashion we are hoping he will.

    • Valerie
      April 5, 2016 at 7:46 pm #

      I was exceedingly polite to you. There is nothing “unsupported” about the dangers of measles, and you assertion that it wouldn’t be a real problem if we stopped vaccinating is unfounded. Here’s what happened in the UK in 2012-2013: 1,455 cases, 88 hospitalizations, one death. That’s with a minimum of about 68% vaccinated in the area where the outbreak was the worst (and people jumping to vaccinate their unvaccinated children at risk). I don’t know why you assume that the US would fare so much better if we all stopped vaccinating and measles became endemic- a large proportion of children contract measles and hundreds die every year.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Swansea_measles_epidemic

  7. Richard
    April 5, 2016 at 3:30 pm #

    Jen, the med student was going to refute my stats (I hope she talks to her professor). Nick had some good arguments. Does anyone have an argument? If not, this group seems to be populated by people who have already made up their mind but have not really good arguments. Dr. Kitty’s argument was that she doesn’t like my layman terminology. Other people argued that I’m stupid or can’t do math, or who am I to say anything, or I’m a PhD of obfuscation, or what if my kids go overseas where measles is dangerous, or a bunch more. There were some intelligent refutations. But it’s scary to get a measles vac.

    1. People die from the vax at a much much much higher rate than the measles, mumps and rubella disease.
    2. The drug company is under a whistleblower lawsuit for faking the data on the mumps component.
    3. There is ample evidence of the danger for children under age 3.
    4. There is a 100 cases that ONE of you reviewed a few of that shows some probably causation.
    5. VAERs data CAN be a sign of causation. Causation can never be irrefutably proven. It can only be incrementally proven.
    6. There is a substantial amount of evidence payments by drug companies to influence journals, medical societies, medical schools, and individual doctors.

    I want to hear an argument that persuades, not rehashed web site stuff or from Dr. Kitty, “what do you know-I’m a doctor” stuff or insults.

    • Sonja Henie
      April 5, 2016 at 3:43 pm #

      #1 is a lie. We’ve been through this before. You have never documented ONE DEATH from measles vaccine. Here is a list of measles deaths in the US through 2000-2015, including SSPE. http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/fl/Measles-Deaths.htm

      #2-Ooooh, whistleblower lawsuit. I don’t know how many times I have said this, but I guess I have to say it again-if Merck committed fraud they should be held to account (Whoops! There goes my shill check!). However, there is no issue with the measles portion of the vaccine, which is about 99% effective after two doses. Even if the mumps portion is only ~85% as these whistleblowers claim, that’s a darn sight better than 0%

      3. That is untrue.

      4. ???

      5. No, VAERS themselves say otherwise.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 3:49 pm #

        If so, provide some evidence. Otherwise, you have no credibility. Just one of many name callers who can’t justify their positions. About.com? Are you serious? That’s your support?

        • Sonja Henie
          April 5, 2016 at 3:52 pm #

          Look, bub, you haven’t posted one piece of evidence. Not one. You just keep repeating the same old trash over and over. Maybe you should actually look at the references in the links. I like how you denigrate others’ source, including mine, but you have none. We’re just supposed to believe your ouija board or seer stone or something gave you this knowledge.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:13 pm #

            My name is not bub, and YOU are the one who hasn’t posted one piece of evidence. I have made approximately 20 citations to scientific literature and to the CDC website including VAERS searches. You used “about.com”?

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:22 pm #

            The HELL I haven’t posted evidence. You’re insane. Here are the references from the about.com article, which was merely a compilation of deaths from measles in the past 15 years.

            “CDC. Vital Statistics in the United States, 1940-1960. Accessed February 2015.

            CDC. Wonder Compressed Mortality Files. Underlying Cause-of-Death. Accessed February 2015.

            Jabbour,
            JT. Epidemiology of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE). A
            Report of the SSPE Registry. JAMA. May 15, 1972. Vol 220, No 7.

            Schönberger
            K (2013) Epidemiology of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE) in
            Germany from 2003 to 2009: A Risk Estimation. PLoS ONE 8(7): e68909”

          • Mishimoo
            April 5, 2016 at 7:50 pm #

            Oh but it’s not real evidence, not in the same way that his evidence is proper evidence. Your evidence is created by shills and Big Pharma, that makes it invalid *eyeroll* Ugh!

        • Tyler Smith
          September 26, 2017 at 3:12 pm #

          Richard doesn’t read past the body of any post. He just takes the blog writers word for it when it agrees with his preconceived ideas. Citations? What are those?

      • Right To Know
        September 10, 2016 at 1:38 pm #

        Merck did commit fraud, as have many pharmaceutical companies. The challenge is that they are no longer able to be sued or taken to court in regards to vaccines, like they can be with other drugs. And when the CDC has colluded with them, which is certainly the case with Thompson who they are trying now to discredit, it is going to take massive action by our government to hold these folks responsible. Maybe you would be so kind as to call your Senator and Congressman and ask them to subpoena Dr. Thompson, so he can release his data? We’re all in this together.

    • guest
      April 5, 2016 at 5:06 pm #

      You don’t want to hear anything, actually. You are here to “prove”us wrong. I have read enough to know that people like you aren’t persuaded by facts. So I don’t waste my time providing them. You are committed to believing that vaccines are dangerous, and will explain away any and all evidence to the contrary.

  8. WYNEMA GONZAGOWSKI
    April 5, 2016 at 3:11 pm #

    I get insulted, denigrated and attacked by vaxxers for following medical advice and NOT vaccinating my children… When I explain WHY my children are not vaccinated I get even more… When I encourage everyone to know specific things before vaccinating I get called an idiot or anti-vaxxer… I find it sad and hypocritical…

    • Charybdis
      April 5, 2016 at 5:45 pm #

      If you have a legitimate medical reason for not vaccinating or doing so on some sort of delayed schedule, then we have no quarrel or argument with you or any other person who has, or their child/ren have, a legitimate medical reason: immunocompromised, anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine or other severe allergic reaction to a vaccine, etc.

      Where the problem lies is the “I don’t believe vaccines work/are safe/are necessary anymore/we eat organic and are extra healthy, we won’t catch any stinking VPD’s/use essential oils, herbs, garlic, and water carefully disguised as a “homeopathic remedy” for any illnesses type of folks. And finding a pediatrician or GP who will let you get by with “I don’t believe in them” as an excuse to not vaccinate is NOT THE SAME as having a legitimate medical reason to not vaccinate. It is the people who have a medical reason to not vaccinate who need the rest of us to do our part to help maintain herd immunity so they are not put at risk by VPD’s

      My son’s pediatrician’s office refuses to see any unvaxxed kids and babies and will not take them on as patients, although if there is a true medical reason for not vaccinating, they are good with that. I told them I was glad they made that decision because the “personal belief exemption” is getting out of hand and endangering people.

      • Right To Know
        September 10, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

        Exactly how is “personal belief exemption” endangering people? I am really curious to know your thinking process.

        Question: If you you knew that vaccines were not safe, say, you had some inside information. And you knew that they were not effective, so your child could still get the disease for which they were vaccinated, would you still do it?

        • Nick Sanders
          September 10, 2016 at 2:01 pm #

          How? It leaves the unimmunized person unnecessarily vulnerable. It compromises herd immunity without any benefit.

        • Charybdis
          September 11, 2016 at 12:58 am #

          It is a “greater good” scenario. The most effective way to deal with highly contagious diseases is by vaccination. The majority of these diseases are viral, and being viral, there is nothing you can do to help speed recovery (using antibiotics to arrest and shorten the infectious period and subsequent recovery). You just have to let the virus run its course and that can take anywhere from 10-21 days. Not to mention that the incubation period is similar and you are contagious *before* telltale symptoms (rashes, swollen glands, etc) appear and for several days afterward. Early symptoms are generic for a large number of viral VPD’s: Headache, runny nose, aches, sneezing, and fever could be a cold, the flu (influenza), chicken pox, polio or measles. You take your child, who has had these generic symptoms for a couple of days, , to the pediatrician. While waiting in the waiting room, your child coughs or sneezes several times and maybe plays with a couple of toys. The waiting room also has a number of other children there, anywhere from 10 days to 11 years old. Let’s say your kid has the measles. The measles virus is an airborne virus and can linger in the air for 2 hours after an infected person was present. It is also hella contagious, so much so that if an unvaccinated, un-immune person is EXPOSED to someone with measles, they have a 90% chance of catching it themselves.

          Now there are plenty of people who are vulnerable to VPD’s for a number of reasons. These can include, but are not limited to: Too young to be vaccinated, they have not completed the vaccine series, they are immunocompromised in some way (cancer, CF, HIV+, etc), verifiable allergy to a vaccine component, being elderly, chronic health issues or they did not seroconvert. These people have to rely on others who are vaccinated or otherwise immune to VPD’s to help them stay uninfected.

          Just because vaccines are not 100% guaranteed to prevent all diseases all the time (NOTHING is 100% guaranteed) doesn’t mean they don’t work at all or have no benefit. The chickenpox vaccine offers around 85% protection against the chickenpox, and if you do catch the chickenpox the illness will be much milder. The HPV vaccine protects against 9(?) strains of HPV, but providing your child a vaccine that prevents CANCER, even if it only providing protection against SOME of the HPV viruses is a no-brainer for me. Mitigating or otherwise reducing my child’s chance to catch a disease, or cancer, for crying out loud, is one of the best things I can do to keep him healthy for all his life.

          Again, nothing is 100% guaranteed, and some vaccines need a periodic booster (DTaP immediately comes to mind) to maintain your continuing immunity. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. “Naturally occurring” immunity (from having the disease itself) doesn’t always work 100%. Some people have had chickenpox twice and/or pertussis (whooping cough) more than once. Not everyone seroconverts.

          Why do anti-vaxxers think that <100% automatically means 0%, worthless and a waste of time?

        • Tyler Smith
          September 26, 2017 at 3:14 pm #

          “If you had some special information that confirmed that apples caused cancer 100% of the time, would you eat apples?”

          This is how idiotic you example is. Are you suggesting that you have some sort of “inside information”?

          This article is about you specifically I think.

    • ChrisKid
      April 5, 2016 at 10:34 pm #

      So, why are your children not vaccinated?

    • Ad hominem: Foolish Child
      April 6, 2016 at 4:03 am #

      First, because complaining about anti-vaxxers is not the same thing as complaining about people like you – it is kids like yours that we are protecting when complaining about anti-vaxxers.

      Second, the difficulty is that science blogs get invaded on a semi-regular basis by people who have a vaccine injury story and then when you question them about it …. it all falls apart.

      In other words, people cry wolf about vaccine injury a lot….I refuse to believe ‘vaccine injury’ on someone’s word now….I continue to ask for evidence because at the end of the boy who cried wolf…a wolf really did come.

    • Samfu
      April 11, 2016 at 4:03 pm #

      Aren’t you afraid that with you HIV status that you might infect “your children?”

  9. Richard
    April 5, 2016 at 11:58 am #

    The “oxford journal study” was for children OVER AGE 19. The big risk, 80% or more of the deaths are for children under 3. That’s my big concern.

    • MaineJen
      April 5, 2016 at 12:53 pm #

      Children under 3 are the majority of people receiving the MMR vaccine. So it makes sense that most of the deaths in that population would occur in that age group…sadly, sometimes children under 3 die, but all of the examples given below do not seem to be related to the vaccine. (Congenital heart problems, anaphylaxis, ongoing illness etc.) I’m sure there were many more children in that age group who died around the same time, whose deaths did NOT occur soon after they received the vaccine.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 1:32 pm #

        You are just trying to argue because you already have made up your mind, now you’re looking for evidence. Ischemic heart disease has a wide array of comorbidities. Many have yet to be discovered. Anaphylaxis and heart disease are connected. Read this:

        Current Opinion in Allergy and Clinical Immunology
        “Cardiovascular Disease and Anaphylaxis”
        Ulrich R. Mueller

        • MaineJen
          April 5, 2016 at 1:34 pm #

          “You are just trying to argue because you already have made up your mind, now you’re looking for evidence.”

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      April 5, 2016 at 3:32 pm #

      “Children over age 19”? I think something went wrong in that sentence.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 3:42 pm #

        Yup. You said adults, I said children over age 19. Like many of the people who offer up a dizzying array of insults as their substitute for argumentation on this website. You are not who I am referring to.

  10. The Computer Ate My Nym
    April 5, 2016 at 11:27 am #

    As a point of general interest, I suggest looking at this article: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/60/10/e58.long

    It reports on adverse events after administration of the MMR in adults over the decade from 2003 to 2013. Total number of doses administered seems to be unknown, but in that decade there were 7 reports of deaths after administration of the MMR. Only one of them appears to have anything to do with the vaccination: a case of disseminated vaccine strain varicella (MMRV vaccine) in an extremely immunosuppressed person. The others were things like drug overdose, cardiovascular disease, PE, etc. In short, nothing to do with the vaccine except that the fatal event happened to occur shortly after it was administered. This illustrates the danger of assuming that all VAERS mortality reports are reports of mortality due to vaccines.

    • Richard
      April 5, 2016 at 12:04 pm #

      Heart attacks can be induced if you have a shock to the system. Shocks to the system can increase deaths in a variety of ways. The VAERs people should review each bit of clinical data and try to see if there’s a POTENTIAL DANGER. This looks instead, like they are trying to use statistics to dismiss public concerns. I think that Emory University gets a huge amount of money from drug companies. That makes them not so disinterested. And when a government agency tries to preserve the status quo-is that so surprising?

      The issue is DANGERS vs. PROOF. You want to evaluate plausible dangers and subject them to a lower standard of proof when they are so very significant. toddlers who die, and get permanent injury.

      • Dr Kitty
        April 5, 2016 at 12:45 pm #

        Heart attacks are caused by atherosclerotic changes in the coronary arteries. Not “shocks to the system”.

        Takotsubo Cardiomyopathy, on the other hand, is associated with stress and bereavement- and is temporary and reversible.

        Neither are associated with vaccination.

        If your medical and anatomic knowledge is such that “Heart attacks can be induced if you have a shock to the system. Shocks to the system can increase deaths in a variety of ways” is the best explanation you have for vaccine-related injury, I despair.

        • Irène Delse
          April 5, 2016 at 1:06 pm #

          Maybe Richard is thinking of a shock of the electrical variety? Do people who have just had a vaccine put their fingers in the sockets? That makes as much sense as anything.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 5, 2016 at 1:07 pm #

            When I got my flu vaccine back in fall, the options were shot, mist, and cattle prod.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 5, 2016 at 1:54 pm #

            Which did you choose?

          • guest
            April 5, 2016 at 2:29 pm #

            All three at once sounds like a lovely spa weekend.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 2:30 pm #

            If we’re talking about tequila shots…

          • guest
            April 5, 2016 at 2:30 pm #

            Of course!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 3:33 pm #

            Too many tequila shots to the wrong system could result in cardiomyopathy and cirrhosis causing secondary cardiac failure.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 3:56 pm #

            But that takes a long time to develop! (Just playing along!)

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 7:35 pm #

            Not having any tequila at all on a weekend would be a shock to my system. I have margaritas to avoid heart attacks.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 3:55 pm #

            Yeah, we warned them against doing that when I worked in peds.

        • Richard
          April 5, 2016 at 1:28 pm #

          You say potato, I say potatoe. Atherosclerotic changes in the coronary arteries is called “shock to the system” by us stupid people. It can come from something as inoccuous as a big ingestion of a high saturated fat meal which has been measured to instantly affect the flow mediated dilation. Many many shocks to the system result in a reduction in flow mediated dilation. I’m sorry you don’t know that. So you should despair about the dangers of vaccines, not from the dangers of getting infected by non-clinical terminology. You, as a doctor, are probably inocculated from original research, and I despair for your patients.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 1:32 pm #

            …He’s sorry you don’t know that, DR. Kitty.

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 1:45 pm #

            Dude, Dr. Kitty IS a doctor. A real one. For people. I think she might be a little better versed in medical things than a poser like yourself.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 1:51 pm #

            I don’t know who “dude” is, but that’s the point. Doctors do not know what they are doing because they trust the wrong things and don’t do their own research. Who says so? Professor at Harvard University and former editor for one of the most trusted medical journals, Dr. Marcia Angel. WHo else, many many many.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            April 5, 2016 at 1:57 pm #

            …I think his comments just broke something in my brain because this is getting painful to read. I may need to bow out before I descend into angrish.

            The Dunning-Krueger is strong with this one.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 2:02 pm #

            No, he makes perfect sense! Atherosclerotic disease…sudden shocks…you know, potato/potatoe.

        • Richard
          April 5, 2016 at 1:44 pm #

          Doctors ignore POSSIBLE dangers that probably or possibly exist in accord with what they feel like ignoring or promoting or with the naive confidence that what they learned is updated and correct. Cochrane reviews shows that 54% of all medical procedures have evidence of harm, while 7% are probably harmful. Doctors are NOT researchers, and only pay attention to the very limited they get in their very small numbers of periodicals. Dr. Kitty, your statement is not very intelligent. Are you a PhD or an M.D.? Are you a Doctor of Philosophy?

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

            What’s YOUR doctorate in? Circumlocution and obfuscation?

  11. Richard
    April 5, 2016 at 11:27 am #

    WHAT DO WE KNOW?

    What do we really know about measles and the vaccine? It looks like there’s a cliff there. We haven’t proved the dangers of the cliff with a randomized controlled or cohort experiment-we need to because we think some people survive walking off cliffs and the deaths we hear about might be a coincidence. They were going to die anyways, perhaps from some other cause like a rusty toe nail clipper. So we might as well walk off the cliff because some governmental agency is saying “don’t trust the VAERs data for causation” much like the Wizard of Oz said “don’t look at the man behind the curtain”.

    That’s what some of the vax proponents are saying. I wish:
    1. Vax proponents would use ARGUMENTS, not angry insults. To be fair, a couple have like Nick and Jen. Jen and NIck both have argued very plausible and reasonable arguments.
    2. That arguments would be using actual academically viable research.
    3. That people would stop just believing mantras and really think through the evidence.
    4. That people challenge their own bias, and not just rehash some web site conclusions, no matter how official sounding it is.
    5. Observe that the facts, that the structure of the ethics and other factors make it so that unless people die at much higher rates, it will be impossible to challenge what already might be dangerous.
    6. That you look at and understand my hypothesis: VAERs data is accpetable if you study the individual cases for establishing a MINIMUM level of deaths. It’s not proof, but it’s a great beginning. It’s a cliff-not proven to cause death-but not bad to use common sense. That these rates on MMR appear to be much higher than doing nothing.
    7. Look at whether the drug industry does or does not have a well documented history of being able to alter large outcomes and to shape scientific knowledge falsely, much like other industries.
    8. Refrain from false blog sites supported by the drug industry. Those are manned by rocket scientists and brilliant people who can argues that snowballs are not cold.

    I myself consider this discussion to be a good way of learning and challenging my own hypothesis as to whether vaccines are safe or not. For me it’s been excellent to review. I have real children who are in the midsts of decision. If i had applied this much research to the question in the first place, I think I would have delayed my measles vaccine to much later. I would not have done so many vaccines at once. I would have been more alert to the collusions (well documented) between drug companies and the medical industry.

    I am not an anti-vaxxer as some of you have argued. I believe in vaccinations for the right illnesses and in the right sequence and timing. At present, I am highly disturbed by data that points to a cliff with respect to the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine. Giving the vaccine, based upon the data, looks like walking off the cliff. This is heightened because the drug company is being sued for falsified data on the mumps component in gaining their approval and especially considering that a similar vaccine that they made was killing people (and was withdrawn from use) in Asia. The drug company has been implicated in other drug scams and whistle blower actions. They have already withdrawn one drug that they allegedly witheld data upon showing that death could be caused. When people started dying, they were foced to withdraw the drug only after making billions. Walking off a cliff is not safe.

    Further I am currently looking at whether the recommendation by my kids pediatrician for tetanus, diptheria and pertussis is safe, and my preliminary data scares me more than measles.

    • Azuran
      April 5, 2016 at 11:47 am #

      I’ve stopped reading at your cliff stupidity.
      That’s really one of the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen someone wrote trying to prove a point.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 11:52 am #

        As I’ve said, wouldn’t it be nice if vax supporters used arguments, and not insults. If you have a point that is valid, go ahead.

        • Charybdis
          April 5, 2016 at 1:01 pm #

          So then what exactly is your valid point?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 1:35 pm #

            1. Be more vigilent in original research.
            2. Don’t trust orthodoxy.
            3. If there’s evidence of danger, take it very seriously.
            4. That there’s politics and money that might be providing a lot of dissinformation in the mix of trying to find out what’s true.

        • Azuran
          April 5, 2016 at 1:34 pm #

          And what was your argument in pointing out that people die if they jump off a cliff in comparison with vaccine safety?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 1:49 pm #

            You didn’t read the post to see, but I will explain it to you. Walking off of a cliff is a dangerous but not proven to be by certain medical standards to cause death or harm. Walking off the cliff doesn’t ALWAY kill. So you certain medical standards would require something stupid to prove it’s dangerous. Measles vaccine has just enough evidence of danger, but not enough to prove it’s harmful with a high enough level of certainty. It is unethical to GET that proof with an RCT type of experiment and too expensive to GET some proof with a cohort study. So you have to use the evidence that is there.

          • Azuran
            April 5, 2016 at 7:39 pm #

            And how does that prove any of your point exactly?
            You will not do a study of the danger of jumping off cliffs because we have ridiculous amounts of evidence that jumping off of a cliff can kill you. Doing your study will kill lots of people to prove something we already know.
            Wth vaccine, it’s the opposite
            You don’t do RTC on vaccine because we have ridiculous amounts of evidence that they save lives. Not giving the vaccines to people would kill some of them, which is unethical.
            You can’t even do a worthwhile RTC on vaccine reactions, most of the vaccine reaction that are actually worth worrying about are so ridiculously rare, you would need millions of people in your studies in it to get statistically significant number. And then more kids would die of vaccine preventable disease than of actual vaccine reaction during your study because vaccines are one of the safest and most effective kind of medical ‘treatment’ you can get.

    • MaineJen
      April 5, 2016 at 12:31 pm #

      You can get tetanus from a rusty toenail clipper.

      There’s a vax for that.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 1:21 pm #

        Cute, but we’re talking about measles as you know.

        • MaineJen
          April 5, 2016 at 1:27 pm #

          OK then, let’s talk about measles mortality:

          http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

          “Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of 5, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia.”

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 1:39 pm #

            Are you trying to win an argument using cheap tricks? We are talking about the U.S. where the medical system makes the calculus completely different.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 1:56 pm #

            No cheap tricks. Just facts. One would think you’d want to do your part in eradicating this disease. It definitely takes a toll in many, many countries, but you only seem concerned about you and yours.

            Go ahead and accuse me of using cheap tricks when I’m quoting from actual WHO data. I’ll turn it around and ask you what happens when your kids decide to travel, or get exposed to the measles by coming into contact with someone who’s traveled (Disneyland…). That would definitely put them in more danger than they’d be in from the vaccine.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 2:42 pm #

            If they travel, I have an insurance policy that brings them back to the U.S. where the treatment has the mortality for measles down to 1 every 12 years.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 2:49 pm #

            The mortality was down because people were not getting the disease because they were vaccinated against it. There’s no magic secret cure, they just weren’t getting sick in the first place.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 3:02 pm #

            That’s incorrect. There are 30-45 million unvaccinated people for measles in the U.S. The RATE is lower for death in these people than the RATE of death for the vaccinated people.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 4:02 pm #

            32 million is about 90% of the US population which means that we are under the 95% required for effective herd immunity but its not a devastating amount yet and it does vary by region so some regions have stronger herd immunity. Because of that we are still pretty well covered for measles, starting to get outbreaks but still pretty covered. So yeah still less mortality because people are not getting the disease because they were immune. Vaccination is the treatment for measles, there isn’t any other treatment besides supportive treatment like hospital admission, IV fluids, and antibiotics for secondary infections.

            Oh and the 32 million is according to vaccine rates in the US per the CDC, not an exact number but more precise than a range of 30-45 million.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:18 pm #

            Thanks for the number. I didn’t know. But theres a lot of speculation that these non-vaccinated people are geographically clustered. That would mean you should have mini-epidemics a lot large than the ones were having.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 4:24 pm #

            Like, say…the mini epidemics in the unvaccinated Amish communities of Ohio in 2014 or in California in 2015? Those mini epidemics?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:46 pm #

            THanks for proving my point. 377 Amish out of 500,000 Amish caught the disease, in a mostly non vaccinated population. and no deaths. Meales is a paper tiger. The vaccine is not as safe.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 6, 2016 at 10:27 am #

            Your point is totally unproven. Where’d you get this figure of 500,000 Amish? Your ouija board? How many Amish are there in Patient Zero’s community?

            All Amish over 60 are immune by right, by being born in 1956 or before. They have to be excluded from the number, whatever it is. Many under 60 are also immune from the disease, or from vaccination. The Amish are not totally opposed to vaccination.

          • Andrew Lazarus
            April 7, 2016 at 1:50 am #

            There are fewer than 100,000 Amish in Ohio and Pennsylvania (where measles broke out) combined. Nothing antivaxers say can be trusted; everything must be checked against the original.

            It’s equally untrue that Amish are mostly not vaccinated, although their rate was lower than the general population. But it’s way up since the outbreak. Don’t take my word for it: Amish elders interviewed.

            The death rate from measles, pre-vaccine, was 1:2000 to 1:1000, so no deaths in 377 is more likely than not. Disappointed? But extrapolated out, that was 400–450 deaths per year pre-vaccine. Some paper tiger!

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 4:49 pm #

            They are clustered, and we have had small outbreaks. So far we have been lucky that the number of people immune has been high enough to prevent a real epidemic. The disneyland outbreak spread rapidly in areas where there was low vaccine rate.

            The reason we don’t have more epidemics is that measles is eradicated from the US. So strains need to come in from other areas of the world and hit a vulnerable population in order to spread.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:19 pm #

            Everyone born before 1957, in other words, everyone over 60, is considered immune to measles. Babies under age one cannot receive the measles vaccine. That’s about 4 million people. 91% of the population, excluding those under 1 and over 60, has been immunized.

            Anyone who received a dose of live-virus measles vaccine, available since 1963 with no upper age limit, is considered immune.

            There is no accurate death rate for measles vaccine, as it is a very infrequent occurrence.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:26 pm #

            There are 9 deaths per year AT THE VERY MINIMUM. The denominator even with your stats, changes in the measles group, not the vaccine group. It doesn’t change the calculus. Vaccines have a much much higher death rate than the nonvaccinated/nonimmune category you propose using.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:32 pm #

            It is not verified that they were due to the vaccine.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:40 pm #

            It’s not verified that parachutes save lives, as you can see from this study:

            BMJ. 2003 Dec 20; 327(7429): 1459–1461.
            doi: 10.1136/bmj.327.7429.1459
            PMCID: PMC300808
            Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials
            Gordon C S Smith, professor1 and Jill P Pell, consultant2

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 4:38 pm #

            Yes I forgot to include that number for children under 1 when I did the math for percentage of vaccinated people. Darn it I hate when I forget stuff like that and is why I’m not ever going to to be a Math major!

          • Andrew Lazarus
            April 7, 2016 at 1:58 am #

            This is a ridiculous apples-to-oranges comparison. We had 400–450 deaths annually before the vaccine; that’s what we should compare to alleged losses from the vaccine. (I have no idea where you get this 45 million number. In one sense, it is too low, since no one over 58 is vaccinated, which is over 50 million; they are assumed to have been exposed pre-vaccine. On the other hand, we have 95% vaccination rates for school entrants, so for the <58 population the number is way too high.) But to get back to the main point, this is like looking at the number of people killed by their seat belt (it isn’t zero) and ignoring the drop in the number of people who flew threw the windshield and died.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 3:18 pm #

            So you would rather take the extraordinary step of flying a sick person across an ocean than give your kids a simple vaccination right now?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 3:24 pm #

            YOu know, I don’t know how i got caught in your argument which is totally besides the point. My kids got their measles shots before and may be suffering the consequence considering my daughters various conditions. I am evaluating tetanus at this particular time since a pediatrician suggested that one for my son. And I don’t know what I would do if they go overseas again, whcih I”m sure they will. BUt if this is the best argument by “provax” people, this is pitiful. I have heard slightly better arguments from other people. Get an argument MaineJen. All you got is “you might go overseas, measles is dangerous there”.

            Let me get this straight. In AMERICA, you agree wiht my argument because now you are just arguing about not going overseas. Right?

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 3:30 pm #

            Way to not answer my question. If you have to “evaluate” tetanus to determine whether that particular vaccine is “worth it,” and if you care so little for anyone else outside of your own bubble that you won’t even consider the fact that by not vaccinating your kids, you are putting other people at risk, then you truly are beyond help.

            I don’t agree with your argument anywhere, for the record. Measles and tetanus are dangerous no matter where you are in the world.

            Much like Donald Trump’s candidacy, this whole thing started out funny…now it’s just…awful.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 3:41 pm #

            Your suppositions are false.
            1. Tetanus vaccines have no “herd immunity”. There is not danger from a non-vaccinated individual. YOU ARE WRONG.
            2. Herd immunity depends on such a unique and unlikely set of conditions, such as random distribution, that to argue that someone who goes to Mozambique without being vaccinated doesn’t care about them, is absurd.
            3. If you don’t agree, and all you can do is compare me to Trump or hurl angry investives, such as I am not a caring person, or whatever, you don’t HAVE an argument; but you have plenty of convictions.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 8, 2016 at 5:59 pm #

            1. Tetanus might not, but the shot is a combination of tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis. And the latter two are contagious, especially pertussis.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 6, 2016 at 12:07 am #

            Again, mortality for a disease is measured by deaths per X cases, not by deaths per year.

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 2:16 pm #

            Is it exhausting, moving those goalposts constantly?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 2:43 pm #

            Silly argument. I never once used an international standard. If you mean MaineJen is moving the goal post, then you got it right.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm #

            I’m a little confused, what cheap tricks are you talking about? MaineJen listed the complications associated with measles, yes? Those are facts not tricks. Just because a patient gets sick in the US doesn’t exempt them from complications, once measles has started there is nothing that modern medicine can do to stop the course of the disease. Only support can be provided, support such as IV fluids, meds to lower fevers and antibiotics to help secondary infections. But none of that is as effective as NOT GETTING the disease in the first place. There are people, children mostly, who die from the measles in hospitals while receiving the very best care. That’s how terrible measles is. It’s not a cheap trick to tell people the facts, that measles is a virulent disease and can cause terrible complications that modern medicine might not be able to save you from.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 3:00 pm #

            I am talking about suddenly bringing up international statistics to refute a discussion about vaccines in the U.S. and disease here. If NOT GETTING THE DISEASE causes more deaths than it says, you are wrong. Where are your statistics about measles death. The CDC confirmed that it’s been ONCE since 2003 that people died. Please show some statistics.

            ANd thanks for not bringing up sarcasm, anger or insult as your answer. That has been what most of the people have done, and thanks for being an exception to that way of arguing.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 3:49 pm #

            Well I really am confused, I’m not sure I’m following what you are saying. The international statistics for getting complications from measles might be skewed towards death from complications but the rate of getting complications with measles should be similar. I honestly don’t have any statistics at hand, I’m not terribly good at interpreting them nor at finding them however there are a number of incredibly smart commenters here on the blog that can pull some up.

            What I think is of note is that there were no deaths from measles for over a decade, during a time period when vaccination rates were high and the disease was considered eliminated from the US, meaning that there were still outbreaks but they were brought in from out of the country. As vaccination rates fall we are getting more cases of measles and the number of severely sick people is going up. If this trend continues then it is likely there will be more deaths and serious life long consequence to getting measles. There hasn’t been any sudden improvement in measles treatment since 2003 because the disease was going away. So if children start getting terribly ill again, there isn’t any special treatment to prevent the complications that follow the disease, except pure luck.

            I think about my child suffering measles and then getting sicker with one of the complications and I just feel helpless. I’m not a special unicorn that will be immune to terrible things so my child could end up dead, blind (not the most awful thing but it would be hard to live with a disability plus the loss of vision is a loss), deaf (same), or severely mental incapacitation. Then I think about other children that already live in world with no security, not enough food, full of physical dangers and high risk of death from a huge number of other diseases and I just can’t imagine not doing everything I can to help prevent this one little bit of pain and disease.

            I imagine your argument is that the child could die of the vaccine, but I can’t see how they can die from it except by an anaphylactic reaction that couldn’t be treated. It’s a 0.5 ml dose of vaccine given twice. It’s a tiny amount of fluid that saves lives and suffering. It is considered a live vaccine and there will be some reaction to it by the immune system but that is desired as it means it’s working.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:12 pm #

            The point is, that there ARE recorded deaths from the vaccine. If you study a lot of different medical procedures and conditions, you find many many cases of small quantities of a compound causing very large affects including death. For example, there’s are compounds that even appear in foods that can be used to induce cancer, diabetes or death in animals for experimentation.

            The recorded death rate is 9 per about 3.6 Million new vaccines (it might be a bit more). The recorded death rate for measles is 1 in 12 years or so for about 45 million unvaccinated Americans. It’s no contest. I suggest you study more. There are many many ways that vaccine can cause death other than what you’ve described. A heart attack, for example, can be induced by 50 grams of saturated fat. Most heart attacks are induced by some sort of shock.

            The point is that the medical establishment can not be trusted to get to this, and there’s actual evidence of death events recorded and hard to dispute. Case by case, there is a plausible argument for causation from the vaccine for many or most of those cases that I’ve looked at.

            My argument is that the child can die or become seriously damaged for life by the vaccine, and the refutation of that is not conclusive. The support for it is compelling. And the ratios of the clear cut reporting of death following vaccine is extremely compelling since the death RATE is so much higher than the death rate for measles.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 4:19 pm #

            No. You should be counting deaths per CASES of measles, not deaths per unvaccinated person. How many cases of measles were there in those 12 years?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:21 pm #

            You don’t know what you are atalking about.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 4:31 pm #

            No she’s right, you need to count the number of cases of measles that took place in that time period and the number of deaths in order to see the death rate for measles. Because of herd immunity you cannot assume that unvaccinated means exposed since the rate does vary across the US and some regions have higher rates and less exposure for the unvaccinated.
            Plus don’t forget that children under 12 months are too young for the vaccine and would thus be counted as unvaccinated for their first year of life, but that would change once they hit their first birthday and got the vaccine.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:38 pm #

            No she’s not. You have to count the number of deaths from the choice to not be vaccinated. You have to compare it to the number of deaths from the vaccine divided by the number of vaccines. You don’t know if there’s herd immunity as the numbers suggest otherwise. It’s true that young children would be counted as unvaccinated, but that seems to be covered in the 32 million that someone gave, perhaps you.

            We are not counting the number of deaths from measles cases to decide if vaccination is a good idea or not. You could either say, what’s the measles rate (for unvaccinated) TIMES the death from measles rate. That is the exact same number as what is the death rate from being unvaccinated.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 5:09 pm #

            That would be how you count the deaths from the choice to be unvaccinated, by counting the number exposed to the disease and then dying from it. You cannot be counted if you haven’t been exposed to the disease as your choice has not been tested. Until you are exposed you are just relying on herd immunity to keep you safe.

            I think you might be confused about how to count rates with various confounders. Being unvaccinated raises your rate of morbidity and mortality but doesn’t mean that you will die from simply existing, which is what you are implying by counting all unvaccinated people in your rate.

            Look, your responses are really confusing, I can’t follow the math you are trying to do and I have to read your response multiple time to try and figure out what you are saying and I think you are purposely throwing stuff out to confuse people in order to get them to just give up or you have a poor understanding of the rates and statistics of immunizations. I admit I have difficulty with these things as well but when they are laid out clearly and explained I can follow along. Your numbers are really random “deaths from vaccine divided by number of vaccines” or “measles rate times the death from measles rate” I don’t even know what that number is supposed to represent or what those numbers will show besides more numbers.

            Real life numbers say that you will have more morbidities and mortality when you catch a disease than if you never caught it. What are you trying to say with your numbers?

          • Nick Sanders
            April 5, 2016 at 5:32 pm #

            I can’t follow the math you are trying to do

            Because it’s a shell game.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 6:20 pm #

            I figured as much, since the numbers he’s coming up with are nonsensical.

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 7:33 pm #

            “I think you might be confused”

            Oh, he definitely is.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:20 pm #

            “The point is, that there ARE recorded deaths from the vaccine.”

            THEN POST SOME EVIDENCE!

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:27 pm #

            What’s wrong with the 100 that I posted twice today? The case studies, when they got the vaccine, when they died and a host of other data.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:31 pm #

            Not verified that they were due to the vaccine.

          • Chant de la Mer
            April 5, 2016 at 4:23 pm #

            I’m not really following your argument. I’m saying that vaccines don’t kill children and that measles can and the only reason we haven’t had measles deaths lately is because of immunity to measles from vaccines. What exactly are you trying to argue against that?

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

            But earlier today I posted 100 case histories of people who were reported to have died of measles vaccines. Are you refuting that? How?

          • Who?
            April 5, 2016 at 6:13 pm #

            What Richard is saying is who cares if a few poor brown people die far away. Hell, he’s probably fine with them getting vaxxed because they are poor and brown and might as well be dead anyway, what with them not having access to first world medicine and all.

            And what is it with refusing vaccine then expecting first class medicine to save you when you get really sick?

            Talk about privilege.

      • Roadstergal
        April 5, 2016 at 2:41 pm #

        I did my best marathon time after I got my most recent booster for that one. To VAERS!

        • MaineJen
          April 5, 2016 at 3:08 pm #

          “Unusual acceleration”

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 4:09 pm #

            I definitely need a booster then!

  12. Richard
    April 5, 2016 at 9:49 am #

    There were 9 deaths in the measles vaccine group per year for the past decade. That’s about 9 in 3.6 million. There was 1 death in the same decade for about 45 million non-vaccinated Americans who got the measles. That’s about 1000 times more probability of dying from the vaccine. This is data from the CDC system. If the deaths from vaccines go under reported on the VAERS system, or if the deaths (most within a few days and with similar symptoms and most under age 3) were caused by someone’s toe nail clipping, as someone brought up then let them take the risk with their children that it’s an amazing “coincidence”; that these people-though they were dying at many many times the rate for normal kids their age-were not dying from the vaccine. Just a coincidence-they would have died from something else? Or VAERS is not reliable-maybe they are OVER STATING the data-so this calculation of the MINIMUM rate of death from vaccines could OVER STATE the problem?

    So the “who” toe nail argument doesn’t cut it, or that they would have died anyways, when you have sufficient clinical data on every one of the 100 deaths and enough expert support (6 different research papers) to say there’s no OVER STATEMENT on VAERS. But you guys can have your deluded “read the blogs” arguments all you want. I will continue to look at the evidence and not be limited by slogans.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      April 5, 2016 at 9:51 am #

      Where are you getting these numbers?

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 10:28 am #

        From the CDC. You can search VAERs and you will get the total, a variety of graphs, and the specific report on each of the deaths. It also included the date of the vaccine and the date of the death. VAERs will give a very minimum number of deaths because experts feel that VAERs doesn’t receive all the reports. So the 9 per year might be much larger. There will be on the report a case description of each death, including notes from a VAERs worker and when the vaccine was received, and when the person died and a variety of other information.

        The single death from measles, was reported by the CDC to a variety of News Outlets in mid 2015 and you can find a report on it in the CDC website.

        The 3.6 million is the 3.9 million per year born in the U.S. times about 91% vaccination rate reported for recent years by the CDC. The 45 million comes from the total U.S. population times about 15% total that are not vaccinated by MMR.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          April 5, 2016 at 10:50 am #

          So I get 5 deaths within 60 days of administration of any version of the measles vaccine in Feb 15-Feb 16. I haven’t figured out how to get the actual reports and if you know help would be appreciated, but 5 deaths out of a population of millions seems not particularly unlikely to be coincidence. Note that the MMR is not given only to infant–in fact, it’s not given until after the first year of life at all, generally–but also to older children and adults. So it’s far more than 3.6 million doses in that year.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 11:35 am #

            That’s a good point, but I don’t have that data. It won’t change the dramatic ratios. But here’s the search that I did on measles. Let me know if that doesn’t work. IT was 9 per year, and this search will let you review 100 deaths.

            Link To This Search Result:

            http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?EVENTS=ON&PAGENO=10&VAX%5B%5D=MEA&VAX%5B%5D=MER&VAX%5B%5D=MM&VAX%5B

            ]=MMR&VAX[]=MMRV&DISABLE=No&DIED=Yes&VAX_YEAR_LOW=2005&VAX_MONTH_LOW=01

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 11:55 am #

            Thanks. I think we must be using different search terms or something, because I still got 6 deaths from Jan 2015 to current. Looking at the reports, only one was in a child with no pre-existing conditions, so basically we have 5 sick and one healthy child dying within 60 days of vaccination.
            The previously healthy child died of an anaphylactic type syndrome 4 days after vaccination. They also had some rare bacterial infection which was much more likely to be related to the death than a vaccine 4 days ago.
            Another report was cardiac arrest in a child with multiple congenital heart abnormalities 3 days after vaccination.
            Another had viral myocarditis several days after vaccination. No report on what the viral illness was.
            The third was also an infectious illness after vaccination. Due to the vaccine? Can’t rule out on the given information but no particular reason to believe so.
            One was a vague report that could be anaphylaxis, but hard to know from given information.
            One was a very ill child already on monitoring who had a sudden cardiac arrest. Unlikely to be related to the vaccine.
            In summary, one previously healthy child died around the time of vaccination of a bacteria unrelated to the vaccine, several previously ill children died of conditions that are relatively unlikely to be causally related to the vaccine, though one had a fairly convincing story for anaphylaxis. Not overly concerning yet.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 12:08 pm #

            Great argument. All of those have one confounder in common. VACCINATION. IN aggregate the mortality rate was so much higher in this group who got the vaccination, than anything plausibly explained by “coincidence” even with those illnesses. Pedicatricians almost by training will NEVER diagnose an illness to be linked to vaccines, so the chance of mis-diagnosis is incredibly high. I think if you run a statistical analysis, you will find that this couldn’t possibly be a random affect. I got 100 cases from my search, so I don’t know what we are doing differently.

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 2:18 pm #

            It seems to me that you’ve already decided what the data show and are working diligently to support your conclusion, however inaccurate it may be. Someone analyzes it differently, and your response is that despite their relevant training and experience they couldn’t possibly understand it the way you do, so clearly they’re mistaken. I’m familiar with some of the regular posters here and their backgrounds, but I’m curious about yours.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 5, 2016 at 2:49 pm #

            He got an 800 on the SAT, don’cha know? Clearly superior to everyone else in the world.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 3:37 pm #

            Well, I’ll admit that 1. I only got a 770 in math and 2. I’m deeply embarrassed that I still remember my SAT scores.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 5, 2016 at 4:39 pm #

            I still remember mine (and my GREs**), but I forgot until very recently that I also took some SAT II subject tests…

            **In my defense, I’m still in academia and we talk a lot about how much weight, if any, we should give to the GREs in admissions.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 5, 2016 at 4:56 pm #

            **In my defense, I’m still in academia and we talk a lot about how much weight, if any, we should give to the GREs in admissions.

            You do? Jeez, we had that discussion 10 years ago, and, at that time, everyone agreed, “none,” so there was nothing to discuss

          • crazy grad mama
            April 5, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

            Yeah, nobody ever said my field was the most progressive…

            ETA: Most people I know agree that the standardized tests are fairly useless, especially the GRE subject test we ask for, but few people are willing to drop it from the admissions requirements unless all the other schools do. 😛 And of course, there are a few old white men who aced it and are thus convinced that it *does* mean something, despite all the evidence.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 2:51 pm #

            Actually, I”m waiting for an argument that refutes my my hypothesis. YOu are wrong to say I’m not open to refutation. I am dealing with life and death decisions. All you offer is that I should trust credentials? Not valid. I will later post on the dangers of trusting credentials. But did I say that they couldn’t possibly understand it the way I do? Not once. You need credentials: I need facts and arguments.

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 2:55 pm #

            My hypothesis: Richard is a paid shill for hospitals. I mean, look at him – he’s spreading disinformation about vaccines to discourage people from getting them, which would be a windfall for hospitals dealing with sick children and adults. This a multi-billion dollar industry we’re dealing with, here. He even said outright that people who get sick in the US will live because of the hospital care! Days, weeks or more of hospital care that might or might not save you, vs a cheap and quick vaccine? He’s trying to funnel money into US hospitals. Don’t fall for his money-making scheme.

            It is now up to Richard to refute my hypothesis, since that’s how he thinks the world works.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 3:03 pm #

            Silly person. Show some facts, and I’ll refute your silly argument.

          • MaineJen
            April 5, 2016 at 3:26 pm #

            Fact.

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

            Nope, you haven’t refuted my hypothesis. Try again.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:05 pm #

            My hypothesis: Richard is an engineer. He does these calculations, but doesn’t really know Jack S. about measles. I’ve had patients who were engineers who did these type of calculations and concluded their risk of flu was so infinitesimal they didn’t need a flu shot. Hopefully, they got the flu! Once you get it, you’ll never skip a shot again. You can’t control for exposure, which engineers don’t get. It’s capricious.

          • Linden
            April 5, 2016 at 4:25 pm #

            I have to speak up for engineers here. We’re not all tossers. But yes, probably due to Training in mathematics, physics, chemistry, statistics etc. at great speed, sometimes without adequate foundations, we tend towards the overestimation of our intellectual abilities. We’re shamefully over-represented among those taken in by woo… Also over-represented amongst terrorists as well! I’m not showing us in the best light, am I? I’ll get me coat.

            Who was it that said, “The failure mode of Smart is Asshole?”

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:30 pm #

            I have nothing against engineers. Why, some of my best friends. . .

            Seriously, my father was an engineer, my spouse is a physicist who does engineering, both his brothers are engineers, two of my cousins are engineers, my sons-in-law are engineers. Even my ex-husband was an engineer. My brother, OTOH, majored in history! I do know the engineering mindset very well. None of these people know much about health care. DH is content to go along with what his doctors say. He had the same kind of cancer as Steve Jobs, but unlike Jobs, didn’t think he knew more than the docs, so is doing OK. Some of the rest of them think they know more than the doctors.

          • momofone
            April 5, 2016 at 4:04 pm #

            What exactly is your hypothesis?

            Edited to add that there’s no need to post later on the dangers of trusting credentials on my account. I’m taking that to mean you have none.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 5, 2016 at 4:01 pm #

            They probably all rode in a car, too, right before their final illness. Shall we blame the car? How about TV? I bet they all watched TV. That must be it! Or maybe it was the water they drank! Yikes, we’re all at risk.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 4:16 pm #

            Read the cases, look at the rates compared to normal mortality and measles mortality rates, and tell me the cause was the TV or the car. Silly person. Lose the sarcasm and get an argument.

      • Sonja Henie
        April 5, 2016 at 3:59 pm #

        He won’t tell us.

      • Charybdis
        April 5, 2016 at 5:51 pm #

        Out of his ass, I would wager.

    • Valerie
      April 5, 2016 at 3:36 pm #

      I’m just going to pretend for a moment that there is a causal relationship between the vaccine and death, and there are 9 deaths per year caused by the vaccine. The rate of death from measles in the US before the vaccine was about 400-500 per year, according to the CDC. Do you really want to go back to that? Unvaccinated people aren’t magically escaping the disease- it’s because most people are immune (largely through vaccination) that the disease doesn’t become endemic again. Very few of those millions of unvaccinated Americans actually contracted measles, in contrast to a time when the vast majority of children got it at some point.

      Here, read the CDC’s page:
      http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

      Secondly, also assuming vaccines outright kill 9 recipients per year, back of the envelope, your child is still more likely to die by lightening strike (~50 people per year). Would you leave your child vulnerable to a miserable, deadly, and highly infectious disease, to ensure that she doesn’t get struck by lightening? Because that is essentially what you are trying to do, even giving you every benefit of the doubt.

      I’m not going to argue with you about your numbers (others are already doing that), but unless you have a better strategy for preventing measles long-term in the US, vaccines are much safer.

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 3:47 pm #

        Thanks for a real argument.

        1. How would you argue that we would go BACK, when the rate of death and the number of deaths per measles case has so dramatically declined? Medicine has changed.

        2. There are 30-45 million unvaccinated that refute your statistics, and there is not herd immunity protecting them. That is certainly enough people that we should have massive epidemics.

        3. Think clearly; the chance of dying from measles is way way way lower than from the vaccine. So the lightenins strike analogy is misplaced.

        4. No one has argued about my numbers yet. I wish they would.

        5. The evidence is that either measles isn’t what it used to be, or we know how to treat it now and it’s not such a big deal.

        • Valerie
          April 5, 2016 at 5:30 pm #

          1. The number or measles cases is very low. Average of 276 per year since 2010. The rate of death is still about the same, roughly 2 deaths per 1000 from before it was eradicated, so we can expect death from measles in this country to be a rare event, simply because so few people catch it.

          2. Because measles is eradicated in the US, all of the cases are traced to a person who got it in another country, and it is aggressively contained. Everybody who has come in contact with that person without immunity or with uncertain immunization status is quarantined until they are in the clear. Because of this, outbreaks are kept to a low number of people. A person usually only comes in contact with a limited number of people each day, and the majority of people do have immunity, mostly because of vaccines. It’s not the millions of unvaccinated- it’s the number of unvaccinated that the person comes in contact with while they are contagious. We had an outbreak amongst a largely unvaccinated community- the Amish, in Ohio, in 2014. They went far and above the yearly quota of cases for the whole country, with 8 hospitalizations, despite aggressive quarantining. Many even decided to get vaccinated to limit the spread. Imagine if that were the whole country, not just an isolated community.

          3. I’m comparing a world where nobody is vaccinated to the world we have today, as you see it- 400-500 deaths from measles per year (quite possibly more as the population is larger), vs 9 vaccine-caused deaths. Unless I’m not understanding- are you advocating for a world where nobody gets vaccinated, or one where everybody but your kid gets vaccinated?

          4. Didn’t a commenter go through all of the deaths in a year? 5 of them, and all of them had other conditions, unrelated to vaccination.

          5. You didn’t show any evidence of that. The data are consistent with measles having a low death toll in the US because it is rare, because people are vaccinated, not because we have a better therapy. Show us some data that infected people have a lower injury rate- they don’t. Measles still kills many children in parts of the world where there isn’t consistent vaccination. It’s not going to stay eradicated in the US if we stop vaccinating people and stop trying to contain it.

  13. Richard
    April 4, 2016 at 8:13 pm #

    I presented a list of a bunch of the deaths reported on the VAERs system for measles. Someone said “correlation is not causation”. HOw stupid. These kids died a few days after the vaccine. The symptoms were almost immediate. There is no better way to determine causation than to give a treatment and see if theres an effect.

    • Sonja Henie
      April 4, 2016 at 9:36 pm #

      A while back you claimed you never said kids were dropping over after vaccines. Another lie, bub!

      • Richard
        April 4, 2016 at 10:04 pm #

        You lie. I never had said that. When I saw this data, I saw that it was true. You are a lier and you know it.

    • Nick Sanders
      April 4, 2016 at 9:39 pm #

      Yeah, if you aren’t concerned about confounding variables for some reason.

      • Who?
        April 4, 2016 at 9:42 pm #

        Well, quite. Or that a certain number of people will die in any given week, month or year, since we don’t live forever.

        On this reasoning, if someone dies after the podiatrist cuts their toenails, it’s a sign the rest of us, if we fear death, should never cut our toenails again. Or all podiatrists should be run out of town as killers. Or something.

        • Nick Sanders
          April 4, 2016 at 9:43 pm #

          That’s bad news for me and my compulsive nail clipping. As if the ingrown big toes weren’t bad enough…

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 9:48 pm #

            Well when your day comes, you’ll know what you did…

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 9:50 pm #

            Can you get them resected? Unpleasant little op, but totally worth it.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 9:51 pm #

            Almost certainly, as soon as I can afford medical insurance again.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 10:01 pm #

            Sorry…

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 10:02 pm #

            So life goes.

        • Richard
          April 5, 2016 at 9:39 am #

          You didn’t read those clinicals and you didn’t run the numbers for ordinary mortality. They died of similar symptoms and within a few days of the vaccination, and they died at rates WELL IN EXCESS of mortality rates for kids. Toe nail cutting never leads to anaphylactic shock or apnea, for example.

        • Richard
          April 5, 2016 at 9:51 am #

          This is a silly and false argument. The kids died quickly, from similar symptoms and at a rate that vastly exceeded normal mortality. The sample size was in the millions who received vaccines. The likelihood of over reporting was virtually none, but the likelihood of under reporting was substantial.

          Any other “cute” arguements about toenails?

      • Richard
        April 4, 2016 at 10:06 pm #

        Like what? What are the confounders? Why hasn’t any one found confounders yet?

      • Richard
        April 5, 2016 at 11:03 am #

        No matter what, there is always, even in the best experiments a POSSIBILITY of confounding variables. This group was very similar in many respects to a cohort group. They were about the same age. They were mostly healthy. The data IS causal, but may understate the effect because of under reporting.

        I don’t know of any INTERNAL testing the VAERs has done to see if their data is reliable, and I don’t know why they haven’t run validation surveys other than politics and money.

        I don’t know if they haven’t noticed the amazing potential of clustering in these deaths among sub 3 year olds. They are supposed to look at clusters. I don’t know why they haven’t done some sort of genetic work on the autopsies. But Cochrane looked at the MMR and said the following:

        “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and post-marketing, are largely inadequate.”

        In other words, WE DON’T KNOW THE REAL RISKS.

        • Charybdis
          April 5, 2016 at 11:07 am #

          Please, for the love of all that is holy, please, please, please sum up what these REAL RISKS are. Apparently you have been trying, but have not been successful as of yet.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 11:49 am #

            The real risks that I HAVE STUDIED so far; dying from the vaccines. The vaccine death risk appears much much much higher than the risk of death from measles (plus mumps and rubella).

            Where there’s death, however, there’s likely to be disease. So I have YET to study that. I don’t actually have enough resources there, but I can get a rough sense of it by looking at serious aers from VAERS at the CDC. I can sue the FDA under the FOI for the actual clinical data from the drug company, but I am not rich to do so. Further, I would love to study the Cochrane review on this issue and include the studies that they disgarded in that research. I am looking for dangers, whether PROVEN or whether there’s a plausible possibility. When I take a dangerous intervention I don’t try to prove to a high level the danger. I want proof of the EFFECT, but the level of evidence for the dangers is much lower because I am doing something dramatic to my body.

          • ChrisKid
            April 5, 2016 at 2:44 pm #

            What he’s not telling you, which makes me wonder if his only source is AV websites, is that the same Cochrane also said this:
            “Exposure to the MMR vaccine was unlikely to be associated with autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, bacterial or viral infections”

            and:
            “Existing evidence on the safety and effectiveness of MMR vaccine supports current policies of mass immunisation aimed at global measles eradication and in order to reduce morbidity and mortality associated with mumps and rubella.”

            Also, a clearer statement of the part he quoted:
            “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre and post-marketing, need to be improved and standardised definitions of adverse events should be adopted. More evidence assessing whether the protective effect of MMR could wane with the time since immunisation should be addressed.”

            In other words, some more research needs to be done, but in the meantime the vaccine has proven to be safe and effective and should continue to be used. Some of the research they’re asking for is into how long the vaccine immunity lasts.

            But the AV sites aren’t likely to mention those things, are they? So the question is, did he blindly repeat what he read in a biased source, or did he knowingly conceal information?

          • Roadstergal
            April 5, 2016 at 2:46 pm #

            “standardised definitions of adverse events should be adopted”

            Utterly. The better the standardization, the easier and more useful the analysis.

            Note that standardizing definitions of adverse events isn’t necessarily going to make the vaccine look worse – in fact, by being better able to compare events to controls, it could well look better.

    • Megan
      April 5, 2016 at 12:36 pm #

      My daughter took her first steps just days after her MMR. Should I attribute that to the vaccine and /or report it to VAERS?

      • MaineJen
        April 5, 2016 at 12:36 pm #

        “Spontaneous ambulation.”

        • Richard
          April 5, 2016 at 1:22 pm #

          Once again, very cute, but not funny for parents with dead toddlers.

      • Charybdis
        April 5, 2016 at 12:40 pm #

        No, no, no! Only NEGATIVE things happen after vaccines, don’tcha know.

    • Linden
      April 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm #

      The Hon. Galahad produced a black-rimmed monocle, and screwing it into his eye, surveyed the table with a frown of distaste. ‘Tea?’

      Millicent reached for a cup. ‘Cream and sugar, Uncle Gally?’

      He stopped her with a gesture of shocked loathing. ‘You know I never drink tea. Too much respect for my inside. Don’t tell me you are ruining your inside with that poison.’

      ‘Sorry, Uncle Gally. I like it.’

      ‘You be careful,’ urged the Hon. Galahad, who was fond of his niece and did not like to see her falling into bad habits. ‘You be very careful how you fool about with that stuff. Did I ever tell you about poor Buffy Struggles back in ‘ninety-three? Some misguided person lured poor old Buffy into one of those temperance lectures illustrated with coloured slides, and he called on me the next day ashen, poor old chap – ashen. “Gally,” he said. “What would you say the procedure was when a fellow wants to buy tea? How would a fellow set about it?” “Tea?” I said. “What do you want tea for?” “To drink,” said Buffy. “Pull yourself together, dear boy,” I said. “You’re talking wildly. You can’t drink tea. Have a brandy-and-soda.” “No more alcohol for me,” said Buffy. “Look what it does to the common earthworm.” “But you’re not a common earthworm,” I said, putting my finger on the flaw in his argument right away. “I dashed soon shall be if I go on drinking alcohol,” said Buffy. Well, I begged him with tears in my eyes not to do anything rash, but I couldn’t move him. He ordered in ten pounds of the much and was dead inside the year.’

      ‘Good heavens! Really?’

      The Hon. Galahad nodded impressively. ‘Dead as a door-nail. Got run over by a hansom cab, poor dear old chap, as he was crossing Piccadilly. You’ll find the story in my book.’

  14. SP_88
    April 2, 2016 at 11:30 pm #

    Is this article for real? Talk about being arrogant. Do you think that anti-vaxxers were created in a vacuum? Do you think that one day a bunch of people suddenly decided that vaccines, which had been helping to prevent disease for years, are suddenly bad for you just because they felt like it? Do you think that people who know nothing about the medical field are the ones who started the anti-vaxxer movement? Do you really think that this whole thing is based entirely on the knowledge of the average non-medical person?
    Well it’s not.
    The anti-vaxxer movement is based on the information from people who work in the medical field. Many medical professionals have come out with information about vaccines that says they are neither safe or effective. Not all vaccines, but many of them. There are, as far as I know, still some vaccines that are beneficial to our health. But there are many that are completely unnecessary and dangerous. The chicken pox vaccine is one such unnecessary vaccine. People used to bring their children to someone’s house who’s child had chicken pox so that their children would catch chicken pox. The benefit was that after the itchy spots went away, the child would have lifetime immunity. But now, they want to give everyone a vaccine for chicken pox. And for what? So they can make money? There certainly isn’t any other benefit. The child won’t have lifetime immunity from a vaccine. They won’t even have immunity until they reach adolescence. And worse, they can still catch chicken pox. And even worse than that, if they do catch chicken pox, they won’t be able to get lifetime immunity, like if they had caught chicken pox without having been vaccinated. So now they are screwed. Tell me, how is this a benefit? How is this not dangerous? What will happen in the future when most of the population has been vaccinated, yet they can still catch chicken pox? This is a case where the cure is more dangerous than the disease. There are a higher number of people who have been injured by the vaccine than by chicken pox. Add in the unknown danger of having a population that can no longer benefit from the lifetime immunity from catching chicken pox without having been vaccinated and you have a recipe for disaster.
    If all this was the ramblings of conspiracy nuts who know nothing about medicine, I would probably agree with you. But this comes from doctors and medical professionals and people who worked for vaccine companies who would know about such things.
    And there is information from medical professionals about many vaccines and how dangerous they can be. There are people who’s children were perfectly healthy until they received certain vaccines and now they are in wheelchairs, paralyzed or dead. Evidently some children are not tolerant of some of the vaccines or their ingredients. Tell them that they are arrogant for not trusting these greedy drug companies.
    Something I’d like to point out is that most people who are anti-vaxxers are not in favor of eradicating all vaccines from the face of the earth. I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t believe that the average anti-vaxxer is against vaccines, but rather they are against mandatory vaccinations. People should have a choice. Nobody should be forced to take any type of meditation or vaccine or treatment of any kind. Nobody has the right to force anything like this on another person.
    Vaccines are not perfect. There is no way vaccines are 100% safe and 100% effective. Some people have reactions to vaccines. And some people have very serious reactions that result in very serious health problems. Some people have even died from them. These are facts. Even though the number of people who have serious reactions and death from vaccines is extremely low, it still happens. And having a choice of taking a vaccine or not should be left up to the individual.
    The ridiculous claim that forced-vaxxers use is that we all need to be vaccinated to protect everyone’s health. They claim that in order for the vaccine to be effective we need to achieve “herd immunity” by vaccinating everyone. That’s a crock. Everyone does not need to be vaccinated for the vaccine to “work” on the people who were vaccinated. Either vaccines work, or they don’t. They are either effective, or they are not effective. You are either vaccinated, or you aren’t.
    So here is the simplest logic against forced vaccinations. If the vaccines are safe and effective, and you are up to date on all of your shots, than why do you care if I’m not? If the vaccines work, and I have a disease for which you have been vaccinated against, then you should be safe from my disease or virus or whatever. And there is no need to force me to roll the dice with my life. And if you still catch something that you were vaccinated against, it’s not because I wasn’t vaccinated, it’s because the vaccine doesn’t work.
    I’m not against vaccination. I’m against forced vaccinations. I decide what drugs go into my body and the bodies of my children, not you, and not some bureaucrats or politicians. Period.

    • Nick Sanders
      April 2, 2016 at 11:32 pm #

      Do you think that people who know nothing about the medical field are the ones who started the anti-vaxxer movement?

      Yes.

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/The_cow_pock.jpg

      • SP_88
        April 2, 2016 at 11:44 pm #

        Nice picture. Proves nothing.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 12:59 pm #

            You’re using people who believed in witchcraft as an example of people who started the anti-vaxxer movement?
            True or not, it isn’t relevant to the modern day anti forced vaccination movement. I find that it’s more accurate to describe the movement as being against forced vaccinations as opposed to simply being against vaccines. People should have a choice. I’m not against all vaccines. I’m against anyone forcing us to be vaccinated against our will. I believe that this is how most people who are considered “anti-vaxxers” think things should be.
            I don’t know what the situation really was with people way back then, but now, things are a lot different. People aren’t much different, and they are just as susceptible to greed and corruption now as they were then. But the main difference between then and now is the internet. Information gets around much faster than back then. So if somebody wants to know about something, they can find out from the privacy of their own homes. They can read about government agencies, statistics and whatever else is available. And if they want to say something that many people will read or see, the internet is good for that too. People don’t always have to be experts in a particular field to figure out that something is terribly wrong. It would be extremely arrogant to say that they do.
            As interesting as that article was, it has nothing to do with what is going on now. One big difference is that now we have people who work in the vaccine industry and for the CDC coming forward to tell everyone about how vaccines can be dangerous and that many of them do not work either very well or at all. And more people would come forward if not for the threats and intimidation of whistleblowers by industry thugs.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 1:40 pm #

            I’m against anyone forcing us to be vaccinated against our will.

            Then you’re spending a lot of effort opposing something that isn’t happening outside of Uganda.

            I don’t know what the situation really was with people way back then, but now, things are a lot different.

            The only thing different is that vaccines are even safer now than they were back then.

            Information gets around much faster than back then. So if somebody wants to know about something, they can find out from the privacy of their own homes. They can read about government agencies, statistics and whatever else is available.

            That works both ways. Misinformation gets around faster too. Now there is more chaff than ever to separate from the wheat. And no amount of Googling will ever come close to a medical degree.

            One big difference is that now we have people who work in the vaccine industry and for the CDC coming forward to tell everyone about how vaccines can be dangerous and that many of them do not work either very well or at all.

            Of the people in the “vaccine industry” or the CDC “coming forward”, one has been thoroughly discredited, while the other only said that one component of one vaccine was 85% effective instead of the claimed 95%. Outside of those two, I am unaware of ANYONE with actual first hand knowledge making any claims against vaccines.

            And more people would come forward if not for the threats and intimidation of whistleblowers by industry thugs.

            And that’s a silent majority fallacy, pure and simple.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 7:43 pm #

            Than I’m opposing something that only happens in Uganda? There is already mandated vaccines in California and New York. The politician who pushed for refusing to let unvaccinated children into school was found to have taken money from the vaccine companies in exchange for pushing this legislation. These people are so corrupt that they have put money before public safety.
            Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean it isn’t true or doesn’t exist.

          • Gatita
            April 3, 2016 at 8:00 pm #

            I want a source for Dr. Pan taking money to sponsor that legislation.

          • Gatita
            April 3, 2016 at 10:17 pm #

            Ah, so I found the source. It was a Sacramento Bee article: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article24913978.html

            But they don’t list a source. I found another article and a site called Follow the Money and the donation numbers seem to be far lower:

            http://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/blogs/2012/04/06/followthemoneyorg-tips-tracking-political-donations-and-health-policy-your-state

            http://www.followthemoney.org/entity-details?eid=13008437

            The Sacramento Bee article is pretty poor. It doesn’t give any context on the donation size relative to other donors (For example, I found out that unions donate four times as much to Pan as any other group). It also doesn’t give you a list of recipients and how they voted on the bill. There’s no real way to tell exactly what’s going on.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            April 4, 2016 at 4:00 pm #

            Also can’t you see what doctors have been given by drug companies on https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov?

            I found outy primary care doctor was given a whopping $36 in food from a drug company! On noes!

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 9:39 pm #

            If you are referring to SB 277, it doesn’t mandate vaccines, it sets entry requirements for schools. Those parents wishing to not vaccinate are allowed to homeschool their children at no consequence other than the bother of homeschooling.

          • ChrisKid
            April 4, 2016 at 2:19 am #

            The situation in California, as of July 1 this year, is the same as it has been, for years now, in West Virginia and Mississippi – the only exemptions allowed are medical. New York has not done that yet, so I don’t know what you’re thinking of there.
            Yes, there were contributions made to Dr. Pan’s campaign fund by one or more pharmaceutical companies, but they had nothing to do with this legislation. In fact, I think if you check, you’ll find that they didn’t come from companies that manufacture vaccines. The pharmaceutical industry is not one huge monolithic entity, you know. The total amounted to somewhere around 3 to 5% of his total campaign fund. Drop in the bucket, and certainly not enough to claim that it caused him not only to vote for the bill, but to co-write it (not to mention put up with the vast amount of sheer crap that’s been thrown his way since, including serious threats). Also, if you bother to check, Joel Anderson received about the same amount from the same companies and was a major opponent of the bill.

            You really have to get over the idea that everybody connected to vaccine advocacy is only in it for the money. It’s wrong and makes you look desperate.

          • MaineJen
            April 4, 2016 at 10:01 am #

            Mandated vaccines **for kids who want to go to public school.** I repeat, homeschool your kids and you can do whatever you like. While you’re at it, you can pass on your belief that the life and health of immunocompromised children and adults *doesn’t matter,* as long as you get to continue to play russian roulette with your own family’s life and health.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 1:08 pm #

            Vaccines are mandated for kids who are going to public school, daycare and probably some, if not most, private schools and daycares. You are completely free (at least in these here parts) to decline vaccines for whatever reason, as we still have the “personal/religious belief” exemption. You just have to live with and deal with the consequences of that decision.

            Homeschool, unschool or find a private school or daycare that allows non-vaccinated students to enroll. Nobody is strapping folks down and coming at them with MMR, TDaP, Polio, HPV, Hib, Hep A and B and PCV. So they are not truly “mandatory” as you are free to decline them. You just don’t want to deal with the repercussions of declining them, as it is inconvenient and limiting.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 4, 2016 at 1:21 pm #

            Homeschool, unschool or find a private school or daycare that allows non-vaccinated students to enroll.

            My kids go to a Christian daycare in the summer. They require vaccination.

            It’s not just the ebil guvrnment

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 5:50 pm #

            Oh, I know, as DS goes to Catholic school and they require vaccines too. But I mentioned a private school/daycare option because I’m sure there are some that exist somewhere.

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child
            April 4, 2016 at 2:24 pm #

            “only thing different is that vaccines are safer now.” – they ALSO pose less load on the immune system. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3e7bba2f254b62759ad5b5b988ff45b46206d67ae121f0668e11b0e04962098c.jpg

    • Azuran
      April 3, 2016 at 12:27 am #

      I care if you are not vaccinated because of the babies who are too young to be vaccinated. Because of people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reason. Because of people who are immunocompromised and who could easily die from any of those vaccine preventable disease: cancer patients on chemotherapy, elderly people, people with respiratory illnesses, kids with leukemia, people who had organ transplant, people with auto-immune disorder who needs immunosuppressive drugs.
      Right now I’m vaccinated and healthy, so you are not going to infect me, but you might infect them, and that might kill them.

      • SP_88
        April 3, 2016 at 1:15 am #

        That’s ridiculous. People who have a compromised immune system should take whatever necessary precautions to avoid exposure to any kind of disease or virus or illness. They should not expect that everyone else should have to be vaccinated so they won’t get sick. If they are unable to be vaccinated and their immune system is not able to function as it should, they should be the ones who do what they need to do to prevent themselves from getting sick. Why should I have to take a risk when there are things that they can do so I don’t have to? And even if I do, what about the next guy? Why would anyone take the chance of being exposed to something that could kill them? They shouldn’t. And if they do, they should know the risk. Either way, it’s not my responsibility. And as far as risk, I am risking taking a drug that I could be allergic to that could possibly kill me to protect the health of a hypothetical person who should be taking precautions themselves against a disease I don’t even have? Yeah, it sounds ridiculous when I put it that way. Because it is ridiculous.

        • Who?
          April 3, 2016 at 3:31 am #

          Well aren’t you a lovely class of person. No doubt you think you shouldn’t pay for roads you don’t drive on, schools your children don’t go to, or hospitals you don’t think you need.

          Please, stay far away from the rest of us.

          Freeloaders make me sick. You are a freeloader.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 2:08 pm #

            A ridiculous assumption followed by an insult. Typical for a statist who thinks the people need the government to force them to comply with whatever they want.
            If you want to be forced to do things wether you want to or not, or if you think that others should be forced to do things they don’t believe are safe, perhaps you should move to a country that isn’t free instead of turning America into a police state where the government controls everything we do.
            I do not want to be given an excess of vaccines. It isn’t good for you. You can do whatever you want. Get every vaccine they offer. I don’t care. It’s a free country. And if vaccines work so well, you shouldn’t worry about what I do. If you are vaccinated, yet you continue to worry about wether or not I am, then clearly you don’t trust the effectiveness of the vaccines. And if they are so ineffective, why do you bother?

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 2:11 pm #

            I do not want to be given an excess of vaccines. It isn’t good for you.

            http://www.nationalacademies.org/hmd/Reports/2013/The-Childhood-Immunization-Schedule-and-Safety.aspx

        • Azuran
          April 3, 2016 at 9:26 am #

          No, it absolutely does not sound ridiculous because it is not. You only think it’s ridiculous because you are a horrible human being who has no place in society. Living in society requires that everyone do their part.
          Sick people are already doing a lot of things to avoid getting sick, but there are limits to what you can do to avoid other people.
          So, sick people should just suck it because you don’t want to get vaccinated? They don’t have a choice, you do, therefore you are the one who has to take responsibility for your decision.
          So they should lock themselves up in a bubble forever because you don’t want a shot? What about when they have to go to the hospital for treatment? Like that time a newborn baby going in for a normal check up caught measles because another kid in the clinic had it, that baby could have died.

          Peoples fear of vaccination is irrational. It’s not 100% safe, nothing is, but they are probably the of the safest things there is out there. You are more likely to die every single time you take your car than you are to die of a vaccine. You are more likely to slip in your shower and fracture your head than die of vaccine. If you catch only 1 vaccine preventable disease, you are more likely to die from it than your risk of dying from ALL the vaccines put together.

          Be an adult and take your responsibilities. If you are not vaccinated, well you will be the one put in quarantine if there is an outbreak and if someone dies because of your stupid decision, it will be on your hand.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 1:23 pm #

            “They don’t have a choice, you do”. Apparently, I don’t.
            You are under the mistaken impression that the only source of disease is other people. But there are a lot of other sources of disease. Even a person who lives by themselves in the middle of nowhere would have to take precautions to avoid exposure to anything that could make them sick. Or, as you so kindly put it, they would have to “suck it”. They have to suck it wether everyone else is vaccinated or not. They have to take necessary precautions no matter what. So why should I have to have hundreds of shots of God knows what pumped into me just so a hypothetical sick person doesn’t have to worry about getting sick? I shouldn’t. And they can suck it. Because in reality it makes no difference to them if I am vaccinated or not. But it makes a difference to me. So stop pushing your ridiculous beliefs onto other people. It’s not going to change anything. If vaccines were 100% safe and effective, this wouldn’t be an issue. But they aren’t, so it is. There are a lot of unknowns in this area. And not even the best experts know everything about it. Add in the greed and corruption and suddenly this becomes a lot more dangerous. Getting a vaccine has become a crapshoot. Every time someone gets injected with a vaccine they are gambling with their life. The odds of dying or becoming very ill are pretty low with most vaccines, but they aren’t zero. So when you require someone to take one vaccine after another, you’re asking that person to gamble with their life every time. But you don’t care. You care more about a hypothetical sick person than the very real people who are more at risk from these vaccines than a hypothetical sick person is from getting sick by other people. So who is the horrible person here? Not me. I would never force someone to do that to themselves to protect someone who should be doing whatever they can to avoid contact with disease to begin with.

          • Azuran
            April 3, 2016 at 6:24 pm #

            ‘hundreds of shots’ Please, I’m pretty sure I didn’t even get twenty-five in my entire life. Nobody gets that many.
            ‘shots of god knowns what’ educate yourself properly. Everything that is in every vaccine is well documented.

            OMG gambling with their lives. Sure, you are also gambling every time you go swimming, drive a car, take the plane, eat any kind of food, play any kind of sport. Really, if your treshold for ‘risk’ is a vaccine reaction, your life must be very stressing since EVERYTHING is more likely to kill you than a vaccine.

            And those are not ‘hypothetical’ people. Many of my friends have babies who will be at risk for the first few weeks of their life. I’m trying to get pregnant so soon it will be MY baby that anti-vaxxers like you put in danger. I have a coworker on chemo for breast cancer. My uncle is on his 2nd round of chemo for lung cancer. Another coworker had a very preemie baby and as a result her son has extremely sensitive lungs

            And I agree that you cannot force someone to be vaccinated against their will. But you have to accept the consequences of your choice. For example, If your kids are not vaccinated, then they should not be allowed in public school because we have to protect the vulnerable children who cannot be vaccinated.

          • Who?
            April 3, 2016 at 6:29 pm #

            See, here’s the trouble. You care about other people.

            You don’t mock the weak and ill.

            You see yourself as a member of a community, sharing, giving and taking.

            Our anti-vaxxers are far too scared to be around and trust in others. Which is at the root of their values and the nonsense they spout. They want everyone to be as afraid as they are. Which is bizarre when you consider the contempt they claim to have for community.

            Or is it that they can only tolerate those who think and behave exactly as they do?

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 7:33 pm #

            Are there unvaccinated premature babies in public school? Why shouldn’t my children be allowed in school if your children are vaccinated? If your children can catch a disease or virus, they are just as capable of spreading it as my unvaccinated children. So there is no more guarantee that your children won’t spread disease than mine.
            As far as chicken pox is concerned, your children are more likely to catch and spread it than mine are. Natural immunity is more effective than the vaccine. It is even more effective when people are periodically exposed to it from their children. It keeps their immune system ready. They try to reproduce this with booster shots, but it isn’t the same. It wears off and has the unfortunate effect of putting the elderly at risk of catching shingles, something that they would be at almost zero risk of if they had caught it as children and got a natural booster by having their children catch it.
            Things like polio that are very serious and debilitating, and there isn’t really much difference between mild and serious cases I can see giving a vaccine for. But not for something as mild as chicken pox. Only a very small part of the population has a serious enough illness from chicken pox. A larger number of people have an adverse reaction to the vaccine. So for little benefit there is a lot of risk. If you had caught chicken pox as a child, you would pass on some of the immunity to your baby. The vaccine doesn’t do that. And now you want me to take a bigger risk so you don’t have to take a smaller risk? And in reality you are still taking a risk regardless of what I do.
            You people contradict yourselves. You spew all this garbage about how great vaccines are, yet you don’t trust them enough to allow your vaccinated children to come in contact with unvaccinated children.
            It is possible for vaccinated people to still catch the thing they were vaccinated against. And if they have it, they can spread it. Your children, regardless of whether they were vaccinated, can still catch and spread disease. So don’t act like my children are some disease ridden filth just because we don’t believe in your junk science. You can take whatever vaccines you want. But regardless of whether everyone else gets vaccinated or not, you and your children are still at risk. You still need to take precautions. And even if you do, you or your children could still catch something. That’s life.
            I think getting some vaccines is ok. If it is for a serious disease that would seriously harm me or my children, it’s worth whatever little risk there is. But to inject me and my children with every single vaccine they come up with is ridiculous. Many of these vaccines are for diseases that have been gone for a long time. Many of them are for things that are harmless to all but a tiny fraction of the population. And because the number of people who are in danger from these otherwise harmless diseases is so small, the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine is higher, so it’s no longer worth the risk, for me or you. With some vaccines, you have a higher chance of a bad reaction than having a serious complication from the disease itself. You can find the statistics yourself. Or you can blindly inject yourself and your family with whatever they tell you to.
            BTW, there are 42 vaccines and boosters on the 0 – 18 year olds schedule and another 12 on the adult schedule. Add in a flu shot every year from when your 18 until you are 75 years old and that is 111 shots. Now, not everyone gets all these shots, but what about when you people are done arguing about how everyone who doesn’t agree with you should be forced by the government to get vaccinated? What happens when they suddenly mandate that everyone must take every vaccine on the schedule, including a yearly flu shot? This is my concern. I don’t care if you want to be vaccinated with a few vaccines or every single one. And I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be vaccinated with some of them. But the schedule used to be just a few vaccines. Then it was ten or twelve. Now it’s 42. In a few years it could be 65. Where does it end? And if they are government mandated, we will be forced to take them all.
            It needs to remain a choice.

          • guest
            April 3, 2016 at 8:30 pm #

            Babies do not go to school. But their siblings do. Their siblings make friends, and sometimes friends come over for a playdate. Or mom has to pick up the kid from school, and she can’t exactly leave the baby at home. C’mon, try using your brain just a little.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 9:52 pm #

            You know what’s even more effective at keeping people disease free than having “natural” immunity and periodic re-exposure through their children? Extinction of the pathogen. “Natural” immunity can’t do it, but vaccination can.

          • Azuran
            April 4, 2016 at 8:16 am #

            Ridiculously long post so I’m just going to replay to my point: Premie babies grow up and eventually go to school. My friends baby is now 3 and has been hospitalized for pneumonia at least 5 times. He can be vaccinated, but vaccines are not 100% effective. So you there are enough unvaccinated children in the school and there is an epidemic, he could still maybe catch measles. You are ridiculously worried about the risk of a vaccine killing you, well the risk of a vaccine not working is also much high than that, so it is a possibility.
            Really it’s about choice. You chose not get vaccinated, they cannot. Therefore you lose. You want to be a part of society, make the required sacrifice.

          • ChrisKid
            April 4, 2016 at 2:30 am #

            “But there are a lot of other sources of disease.”
            We’re not talking about random causes of general illness. We’re talking about specific, vaccine-preventable diseases. And no, there are not ‘a lot of other sources’ of those. Measles, for example, only exists in human beings. It can only be carried and spread by human beings. If we could eradicate it in human hosts, it would no longer exist.

            “If vaccines were 100% safe and effective, this wouldn’t be an issue. But they aren’t, so it is. There are a lot of unknowns in this area.”
            Nothing in life is 100% safe and effective. Why is this the only thing for which you insist on that standard? Vaccines are not only extremely safe in themselves, but they are literally thousands of times safer than the diseases they prevent. As for ‘a lot of unknowns in this area’, not nearly as much as you’d like to believe. You really need to start using better sources – you know, actual science information instead of nonsense websites.

            “So when you require someone to take one vaccine after another, you’re asking that person to gamble with their life every time.”
            Excuse me for saying so, but this is a load of bull. The risk of death from any vaccine is maybe – maybe – 1 or less in a million. Better information would help you deal with much of that fear you’re dragging around on this subject.

          • Linden
            April 4, 2016 at 4:37 am #

            “So why should I have to have hundreds of shots of God knows what pumped into me just so a hypothetical sick person doesn’t have to worry about getting sick? ”
            Wow. HUNDREDS of shots. HUNDREDS, people. Why should I get my HUNDREDS of shots to save one sick person?
            You really make me wonder how many anti-vaccine libertarian types are just out and out needle phobic.
            You know, my toddler cries for about 3 minutes, sniffs for about 5, and he’s done. He’s not yet two. You’re hilarious, but also very sad.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 7:04 am #

            it’s all about fear, from beginning to end.

          • LibrarianSarah
            April 4, 2016 at 2:33 pm #

            Needle-phobia isn’t the problem being an entitled asshole is. Most people are a bit needle-phobic but only a very small percent of the population is this breed of entitled asshole.

          • Linden
            April 4, 2016 at 5:29 pm #

            You’re right. Fear of needles is not enough. You do need the entitled assholishness. But I do wonder whether for some, the initial justification and outright refusal to face facts is due to an irrational phobia.

          • MaineJen
            April 4, 2016 at 9:57 am #

            Selfish.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 5:47 pm #

            Nothing in this world is 100% safe and effective. Nothing.

        • Deborah
          April 3, 2016 at 8:19 pm #

          Last year, here in Australia, a little boy caught whooping cough and died. He died because he was too young to have received his first vaccination for it. It was not his fault nor the fault of his parents. They do not know how he was exposed to the disease.
          Herd immunity would have protected him. If enough people are immunised there are no hosts for the disease and therefore it cannot be transmitted to the vulnerable. When I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s Pertussis was unheard of due to vaccination. Now we are seeing a return of this disease predominantly in areas populated by people less likely to vaccinate their children. This is an indictment on people who generally pride themselves on community and self awareness, who espouse holistic values of healthy lifestyle and environmental stewardship.

    • Box of Salt
      April 3, 2016 at 2:20 am #

      SP_88 “Is this article for real? ”
      Do you think you sound smart, posting these walls of text (yes, I saw the other comments by you) in the comments section of a blog post almost a year old, rehashing arguments others have presented over and over again?

      “The anti-vaxxer movement is based on the information from people who work in the medical field”
      Sure, such as former gastroenterologist Andrew Wakefield, whose fraudulent paper published by the Lancet in 1998 – and completely retracted in 2010, when his license to practice medicine was revoked – triggered press conferences in the UK where he proclaimed the MMR vaccine was dangerous in order to create a friendly market for his own version of the measles vaccine. You are correct: greed is an excellent motivator.

      There is NO benefit to catching chicken pox. If you think that you and/or your children have benefitted from having the disease, I can only assume you enjoy suffering.

      “Nobody should be forced to take any type of meditation”
      Fine. Don’t meditate. But don’t send your unvaccinated and infectious children to my children’s public schools, OK?

      “And there is no need to force me to roll the dice with my life. ”
      You do that every day. Vaccines are safer than the diseases they protect against. I’m sorry that you don’t understand that.

      • Richard
        April 3, 2016 at 11:52 am #

        You are incorrect. It will take you about 5 minutes on VAERS and on the CDC website to find out that for Tetanus/Pertsussis/Diptheria and for the measles vaccine, the deaths from the vaccine vastly outweigh the deaths from the diseases; that’s both the number and the rate.

        • crazy grad mama
          April 3, 2016 at 12:15 pm #

          Sweetie, if you don’t understand the limitations of VAERS, then no one here is going to take you seriously.

          Secondly, why do you think deaths from measles et al. are so low **in the U.S.**? It’s because we vaccinate against them! Stop vaccinating, and you’ll see those death rates climb right back up.

          • Richard
            April 3, 2016 at 5:23 pm #

            Thanks for calling me “sweetie” but I wonder if you can get your point across without condescension.
            1. The VAERS is limited by UNDER REPORTING according to the JAMA article i previously cited.

            2. The argument you made is incorrect about measles deaths because I said that both the numbers and the RATES are higher for vaccine deaths. In other words, divide the number of deaths for VACCINATED individuals by the total number VACCINATED and compare that to the TOTAL NUMBER OF UNVACCINATED MEASLES DEATHS by the TOTAL NUMBER OF UNVACCINATED, and that’s a direct comparison that accounts for the larger number of VACCINATED. If you stop vaccinating, that RATE will not change, unless there’s herd immunity. SInce the vaccine rates are below the herd immunity levels, then the RATES will not change, though the numbers will. In aggregate, less people will die by reducing the numbef of vaccinations.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 3, 2016 at 5:57 pm #

            1. You mean there are actually DOZENS of kids out there turning into in The Incredible Hulk after getting their shots? That got reported to VAERS, you know.

            2. Nope. Learn to do math & find some legit sources for measles-vaccine-related deaths.

          • Richard
            April 3, 2016 at 7:54 pm #

            Sorry crazy grad mama, I am not having fun with your condescending insulting comments. So if you have a point, make it with arguments, not insults and condescension. I’ve always thought that people who need to do that, don’t really have arguments, and you are that way too.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 3, 2016 at 8:01 pm #

            Ah, I see you’ve come up with a convenient excuse to avoid addressing my points.

            And sorry to burst your bubble, but you’re not worth having a serious discussion with. Your various other posts have proven that you’re not interested in arguing in good faith. The point of making fun of you is to illustrate to any lurkers that your position is laughably wrong.

          • Who?
            April 3, 2016 at 8:08 pm #

            Nailed it.

            And he’s also only reading responses to his own posts, not reading the posts as a whole.

            So if we stop responding to him, he’ll go away.

            But in the meantime he is doing an amazing job of making the anti-vax movement look bad.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 3, 2016 at 9:13 pm #

            I’ve yet to meet an anti-vaxxer who makes them look good, to be honest.

          • Who?
            April 3, 2016 at 9:24 pm #

            This is true.

            I am really interested in how he only looks at the posts that respond directly to his, though if he sees others (by accident, as he jumps to the latest response) he’ll jump on.

            Is he on a dozen sites doing the same thing?

            At least if he is, he’s not out bothering decent folk who aren’t ready for his nonsense.

          • Bombshellrisa
            April 3, 2016 at 9:58 pm #

            Speaking of that, this is a status update from Facebook. I have no idea what she is trying to say, there are no citations or links. I am pretty sure she has no idea that mumps can cause meningitis. But she does know that “they” are EVIL!

          • Richard
            April 3, 2016 at 10:37 pm #

            Now I get it. The Hulk report was made by an I hate anti-vaxers physician blogger trying to prove that VAERs is not reliable, in part because he helped make it unreliable by filing a fake report by saying he turned into the hul,. He was trying to prove that the VAERS database was not patrolled. But the VAERS looked at his claim, and asked him if they could remove it after his vehement objection which included that they don’t investigate (which they refuted by, well, investigating his stunt). So you bring up a b.s. issue to argue that the government database is OVER REPORTED when all experts claim the revers. The hulk report was [SOURCE: http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism%5D

            Ma’am, all you have are insults and bad arguments. My 800 in my math SAT refutes your ridiculous comment that I need to learn math. You need to learn manners, math, and find some legit sources for the safety of measlse vaccine, or provide a better argument abut why VAERS is not a good source for a very minimal level of vaccine adverse events. If anything it understates the data on vaccine dangers.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 3, 2016 at 11:05 pm #

            *giggle* *snort* the SAT?!? *guffaw* Oh my dear, that is a deeply unimpressive level of math achievement. You realize that you’re proving Dr. Tuteur’s point about anti-vaxxers for her, right?

            The
            Hulk thing was a stunt, yes, but it was a stunt designed to highlight
            the problem with VAERS: it’s self-reported. Minor side effects probably
            are under-reported; very few people bother to report it when their
            child gets a low-grade fever after the DTaP, for instance. But say your kid got a shot, then fell down the next day and broke their arm. You could report to that to VAERS, but it doesn’t mean that vaccines cause broken arms.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 2:24 am #

            I’m a nice person, so I left the SAT response for you.

            It’s good Richard is proud of his accomplishments. Such as they are.

            Your example for VAERS is like my friend who reported the kid falling off his bike the week after a vax. She felt it was no coincidence, and reported it. To the Australian version.

          • ChrisKid
            April 4, 2016 at 2:44 am #

            Any minute now he’ll be throwing around his IQ.

          • Dr Kitty
            April 4, 2016 at 11:00 am #

            The last person who talked about his SAT score was also male and also anti vaccine.

            That guy didn’t think that bringing a cooler full of pre-cooked rice and beans cross-country when he stayed with relatives, so that his family could avoid the “toxic” food his relatives ate, was at all weird, anti-social, inconvenient, unnecessary or rude.

            That is the type of person who uses their SAT score as proof of intelligence. Not exactly exalted company.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 11:06 pm #

            after his vehement objection which included that they don’t investigate

            Funny, that’s not the way he tells it:

            Because the reported adverse event was so… unusual, a representative of VAERS contacted me. After a discussion of the VAERS database and its limitations, they asked for my permission to delete the record, which I granted. If I had not agreed, the record would be there still, showing that any claim can become part of the database, no matter how outrageous or improbable.

            https://web.archive.org/web/20081006083909/http://www.neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 8:37 am #

            His “vehement objections” presumably included most or all of his complaints from the article. It’s therefore reasonable to assume that he complained about this issue which was his complaint in the article about non-verification. So your criticism of my summary is incorrect and petty. I asserted that the entire HULK stunt was put up by one of these anti-vax demonizers. And Crazy arrogant mama used it as an example of why the VAERS website is faulty. Futhermore, the SELF DESCRIBED hulk stunt person described how HE HIMSELF polluted the VAERS web site.

            HOwever, you are incorrect if you are suggesting that VAERS has no important information. The history of the VAERS counters that. If death rates are far more from an under reported website due to vaccines than from measles contracted by unvaccinated then that’s extremely compelling unless there’s evidence of high levels of corruption-such as “Hulk reports”. Actually, the experts suggest that the reporting is UNDER REPORTING. I can give you 5 different citations on that point.

            As for crazy nasty mama, you, unlike her, are using argumentation, not insults. So you have some credibility. It seems that since I started this string, you and Jen have ceased your insults, attacks and condescending dismissive comments. Good show, using arguments and words to prove your case shows that you are interested in learning not just arguing.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 1:26 pm #

            And VAERS itself says that the under reporting is confined to minor symptoms, as I pointed out to you, and you ignored.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 1:37 pm #

            Nick, there are five different papers that DON’T say it’s limited to minor symptoms. It is not limited to that. First of all, I reported to our pediatrician MAJOR symptoms. They were not reported. I didn’t even know of VAERS at the time.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 10:44 am #

            Math is not the same thing as statistical analysis. You need to know math for the calculation parts, but it is not the same thing.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 11:30 am #

            Her demeaning comment did not distinguish. And yes, statistical analysis is one of the most important tools to this analysis.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 11:37 am #

            You are the one who dragged “my 800 in my math SAT” into it as irrefutable proof that your math is exemplary.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 11:52 am #

            Amazing; you are still on that? Well, I am willing to admit that my SAT800 proves very little if you admit that this is a silly diversion from the key point of this discussion and admit that attacking my stupidity in math is rude and suggestive of the attacker, not the merit of my argument.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 12:52 pm #

            Nope, not “still on that”. You were the one who brought it up in the hopes that it would impress folks into thinking “Oh, gee whiz, Wally! Mr. Richard got an 800 on his SAT math! He must be SO SMART and knows what he is talking about! Let’s listen!!”

            No. Just no.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 1:00 pm #

            As you probably know, but are simply arguing against, someone said I need to learn math. My point was a refutation. If you feel threatened, I am sorry. But I was not bragging. I was making a counterpoint to her point that I am stupid or undeducated.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 1:14 pm #

            I don’t feel threatened by your *math skilz* at all. I got a perfect score (34, I think it was) on my ACT science section. See how that works? Others here are “teh smartz” as well.

            Does that mean I science better than you?

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 1:24 pm #

            Your response ignores the context for the second time of that statement. I was not presenting a credential to show my superiority. I was presenting it to refute her claim that I am stupid in math. Your math is probably every bit as good as mine, given my age. But your ability to stick to the point is bad, as is your ability to listen.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 1:35 pm #

            Thank you, Mr. Pot.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 1:40 pm #

            I try to listen and I don’t TRY to make arguments just to appear to be right. I do not feel threatened when I am wrong. You have admitted to be wrong, exactly how many times in this string? Oh yeah. None. Despite being wrong again. I admitted mistakes about 5 times. So I maybe a “pot” but you are a kettle.

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 10:51 am #

            The hell you don’t. You have been trying desperately to appear right since you got here.

          • LibrarianSarah
            April 4, 2016 at 2:28 pm #

            Knowing what I do about the ACT “science” section (That it is garbage mostly), I would say that it means you are really good at reading charts.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 5:44 pm #

            This was 32 years ago and the SAT was not offered in my neck of the woods. I don’t remember it being “reading charts” mostly.

            The test may have changed over time, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit, as the way subjects are taught has changed DRAMATICALLY.

          • LibrarianSarah
            April 4, 2016 at 6:02 pm #

            As far as I know, the ACT’s science section has always been terrible. I think part of the reason is that what you need to know about science (the scientific method, reproduciblity etc,) is really hard to quantify in a standardized test. Back when I was teaching high school it seemed to focus on chart reading but when you were in high school it might have been different.

      • SP_88
        April 3, 2016 at 1:39 pm #

        “There is no benefit to catching chicken pox”. There is. Lifetime immunity. Something that no vaccine can do.
        Suffering? They are little itchy spots. It’s not like getting a limb sawed off without any painkillers. I’ve had them. My kids have too. I’ve since been around many people with chicken pox and I never catch it. My neighbor had the vaccine. He thought he was ok. But he caught it from my kids when they had it. The vaccine is a load of crap. It doesn’t work. And I am not the only one who has seen this happen.
        And if your children are vaccinated, what do you have to worry about? If the vaccines are so safe and effective, your kids shouldn’t have any worries from my unvaccinated children. So what’s your worry? Don’t you trust the vaccines to do the job you so vehemently argue that they can do? If you still worry about your kids getting sick from diseases that they were vaccinated against, then clearly you do not trust the effectiveness of the vaccines.

        • Nick Sanders
          April 3, 2016 at 1:51 pm #

          Lifetime immunity. Something that no vaccine can do.

          Prove that claim or drop it.

          Suffering? They are little itchy spots. It’s not like getting a limb sawed off without any painkillers.

          https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/pb.414643305272351.-2207520000.1459705508./1027856850617657/?type=3

          My neighbor had the vaccine. He thought he was ok. But he caught it from my kids when they had it. The vaccine is a load of crap. It doesn’t work.

          An unverifiable anecdote is completely worthless.

          And if your children are vaccinated, what do you have to worry about?

          https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/pb.414643305272351.-2207520000.1459705670./1077369288999746/?type=3

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 3:48 pm #

            I don’t have to prove anything. You assert that vaccines are safe and effective. You want me to take these vaccines regardless of any safety issues. The burden of proof is on you. I don’t think they are safe or effective. So I will pick and choose which vaccines I take and which ones I won’t. Not you. It’s my body and I’ll put what I want into it. Why is that so hard for you people to grasp?
            If you are going to force everyone to inject a vaccine, you must prove that they are safe and effective beforehand. I shouldn’t have to prove that they aren’t safe in order to prevent someone from injecting me with some potentially dangerous substance.

          • Megan
            April 3, 2016 at 4:46 pm #

            Who’s forcing you exactly?

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 11:52 pm #

            It’s an ongoing debate. In California and New York they passed legislation so unvaccinated children can’t go to school. This is how it starts. But it’s never enough. Then they will want everyone to be vaccinated to go to work or other places. Eventually it will be mandatory to be vaccinated.
            I don’t have a problem with some vaccinations for serious issues like polio, but the flu and other non life threatening illnesses can still be contracted and spread by vaccinated people. So there is no reason to mandate such vaccines.

          • momofone
            April 4, 2016 at 12:04 am #

            I live in a state that mandates vaccination for school attendance unless there are medical issues that preclude vaccination. Flu vaccines are not included in the mandatory vaccinations.

            I don’t personally care whether someone vaccinates or not, unless they want to live/work/play where other people live/work/play. That’s freeloading at its best.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 12:23 am #

            The flu, not life threatening? On what planet?
            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5933a1.htm

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            April 4, 2016 at 2:33 pm #

            Yeah I was gonna say, “1918 called. The thousands of adults who died in their prime would like a word.”

          • Megan
            April 4, 2016 at 12:50 am #

            Right. So no one is forcing you. Got it.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 2:21 am #

            Now where’s the drama in that attitude?

            Honestly, with the all caps and histrionics, these guys should be on the stage.

            Introducing the mystery ‘they’ who is controlling and managing everything. I can see that if you really felt your life was at the mercy of unseen forces, you might want to take back whatever bits of power you could by refusing what ‘they’ want you to do.

            Much easier than just morphing into a responsible human being.

          • otterbird
            April 4, 2016 at 6:30 pm #

            The vast majority of people with polio have/had no or very mild symptoms. The flu is far more deadly than polio. Yeesh. I suggest you do more actual research and fewer 1000+ word comments.

            Full disclosure: I get the flu vaccine every year, as does my (fully vaccinated child). Because science is awesome. Also, I had chicken pox twice- at 2 and at 15. So much for lifelong immunity with the “natural” kind.

          • SP_88
            April 6, 2016 at 6:30 pm #

            In California, governor Brown signed SB 277 into law. It goes into effect on June 1, 2016. It says that every child must have every vaccine on the schedule, no exceptions, or they will be denied access to public school, daycare and other such things. That is over 40 doses of vaccines. This bill also does away with the religious exemption.
            It is not uncommon for some children to not get every single vaccine on the schedule. Their parents will have them get the vaccines for the serious diseases and not the ones that typically aren’t life-threatening. A few parents will typically get a religious exemption and not get any vaccines for their children. SB 277 will do away with all of that.
            New York is working on similar legislation.
            So basically these people either have to give their children a bunch of vaccines that they don’t want to give to their children or they can’t go to school. It’s not much of a choice. These people are not going to be able to keep their children out of school. So this is forced vaccinations for all intents and purposes. And there are people who want to do this nationwide.
            Vaccination needs to remain a choice. Nobody should be forced or coerced into taking any medications or vaccines that they don’t want to take. And it’s not like all these people are going to refuse to take any vaccine at all. Most of them will end up getting the important vaccines.
            People who are vaccinated shouldn’t worry about people who are not vaccinated because according to them, these vaccines are safe and effective. They say that vaccines are effective 95% – 98% of the time, especially when I tell people that they only work for about 50% – 75% of the time depending on which vaccine it is. So basically these people are convinced that vaccines are very effective.
            Someone commented that I should get vaccinated because of people who are unable to be vaccinated, such as babies and the elderly. But that’s unreasonable because you can never make the world free of all diseases and viruses and remove all risk of getting sick for such people. Even if everyone was vaccinated, there is always a risk of getting sick. So you can’t lay the blame at the feet of people who aren’t vaccinated. Those who cannot be vaccinated need to take precautions to avoid being exposed to germs and viruses and whatnot. It isn’t everyone else’s responsibility for their health. Suppose they come into contact with someone else who cannot be vaccinated either, and they are sick with something? Because of things like that, the people who cannot be vaccinated need to take whatever precautions are necessary to avoid getting sick. And if they are doing that, then it doesn’t matter if everyone else is vaccinated or not.

          • ChrisKid
            April 6, 2016 at 11:35 pm #

            ” It goes into effect on June 1, 2016. It says that every child must have every vaccine on the schedule, no exceptions,”
            Actually, it goes into effect July 1, but no biggie. The next part of that, though, tells me that you haven’t read nor understood the law and you get your information from fear-spreading AV websites. I wouldn’t be so quick to demonstrate that I never check facts, if I were you.
            ” The following are the diseases for which immunizations shall be documented:
            (1) Diphtheria.
            (2) Haemophilus influenzae type b.
            (3) Measles.
            (4) Mumps.
            (5) Pertussis (whooping cough).
            (6) Poliomyelitis.
            (7) Rubella.
            (8) Tetanus.
            (9) Hepatitis B.
            (10) Varicella (chickenpox).”

            You’ll notice that neither HPV nor rotavirus is on the list. Why didn’t you check?

            “This bill also does away with the religious exemption.”
            California never had a religious exemption, actually. Personal belief, yes, but since that amounts to, “I just don’t like them,” there’s no valid reason to keep it.

            “Vaccination needs to remain a choice.”
            It is. You just don’t like the consequences of the choice, and you don’t get to force that choice on those around you.

            “They say that vaccines are effective 95% – 98% of the time, especially when I tell people that they only work for about 50% – 75% of the time depending on which vaccine it is. So basically these people are convinced that vaccines are very effective. ”
            Vaccines are very effective, some more so than others. Yes, it depends on which vaccine it is. However, as mentioned in another comment, some people aren’t old enough to be vaccinated, some can’t be, and no vaccine is perfect. It’s not all about you.

            “Even if everyone was vaccinated, there is always a risk of getting sick. So you can’t lay the blame at the feet of people who aren’t vaccinated.”
            When the unvaccinated are many times more likely to catch and therefore spread diseases, and refuse to take preventive measures to avoid that, it really is fair to lay the blame at their feet. If they choose to make their own lives more dangerous, that’s one thing. When they spread that danger to their children and everyone else, that’s another.

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child
            April 11, 2016 at 9:27 pm #

            Plus, for the most part, people don’t blame unvaccinated kids – it’s not their fault their parents are idiots.

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child
            April 13, 2016 at 5:26 pm #

            “Even if everyone was sober when driving, there is always a risk of getting into a car crash and being killed in the resulting accident. So you can’t lay the blame at the feet of people who are drunk driving.”

            There, I Reductio Ad Absurdum’d it for SP_88

            @SP_88: You agree that we can’t lay the blame at thee feet of people who drink-and-drive, don’t you?

          • Charybdis
            April 3, 2016 at 9:07 pm #

            No one is forcing anyone to get vaccinations. But you do have to live with the consequences of your choices. You don’t choose to vaccinate, you don’t get to attend public school, travel, visit friends and family who are immunocompromised, stuff like that. You will scream and bitch to high heaven about being violated and discriminated against, but you want to have your cake and eat it too. No vaccinations, but you want to have all the privileges of those who have been vaccinated.

            My son had chicken pox when he was 9 months old, too young for the vaccination. His pediatrician says that DS is one of a very small handful of his patients who has actually had chicken pox, since the vaccine is given at 1 year. He now has scars from a milder case of chicken pox. I had chicken pox as a young child (in my mouth, hair, under my nails and crotch region) and had a bout of shingles (due to stress) 4 years ago at Christmas. I couldn’t wear pants, as it was across my hip and down my left leg. Not a comfortable, “mild irritation” type thing at all.

            Just as you can read vaccine information and think “That’s crazy! Why would anyone want to take the chance of getting a vaccine, when there are these potential side effects” while other people think “Great! Sign me up! Even if I do manage to catch the disease/illess, I will have a much milder case than I would if I didn’t have the vaccine, and that is a major positive!”, there are two ways of interpreting the data and information. If you don’t want to vaccinate, don’t. But don’t complain about the consequences of that decision.

          • momofone
            April 3, 2016 at 9:49 pm #

            “You don’t choose to vaccinate, you don’t get to attend public school,
            travel, visit friends and family who are immunocompromised, stuff like
            that. You will scream and bitch to high heaven about being violated and
            discriminated against, but you want to have your cake and eat it too.
            No vaccinations, but you want to have all the privileges of those who
            have been vaccinated.”

            A.Men.

          • Who?
            April 3, 2016 at 10:08 pm #

            Freeloading. Pure and simple.

          • SP_88
            April 4, 2016 at 2:24 pm #

            Most people have a mild case of chicken pox. I’m sorry that you didn’t. And I’m sorry that your son had it. I certainly don’t want people to to be unwell. I would never wish for anyone to be sick. I care, even about people I don’t know or have never met. And I would never purposely infect someone with any illness if I could help it. I’m sure that I’ve caught and spread my fair share of colds and sniffles, we all have. And I’m sure that a minor case of the sniffles for me could be a hospital visit with pneumonia for someone else, but that is the case with everyone. You could have a minor cold that is no problem for you, but is very serious for the person who touches something in public after you did. That’s just how life is. It’s not your fault. As for the chicken pox, I don’t feel as if there is any more I can do.
            But since I’ve already had it, and I’ve already been exposed to it since then without contracting it, a vaccine isn’t going to make me any more resistant to it than I already am. For all intents and purposes, I am already as immunized against it as anyone who has had the vaccine. And I am no more likely to spread it to anyone than someone who has been vaccinated against it.
            I have also been vaccinated with whatever shots they give to people who are from 0 – 18 years old. So I don’t see the need for any more vaccines than I’ve already had. Like I said, I am not anti-vaccine, I am against forced vaccinations and excessive vaccinations. I realize that there are not currently any forced vaccinations, and I think it should stay that way. Too much of anything is not good. Doctors already overuse antibiotics, and it is creating a bunch of resistant viruses and germs. The viruses are effectively being immunized against our medications and it is becoming increasingly difficult to treat people who have been infected with them. These antibiotics are also finding their way into our water and it is having a negative impact on our health. I realize that vaccines may not share this problem, but there could be other issues as a result of trying to immunize people against too many things. I don’t know what could happen, but I worry that something could. So I think that we should be careful with what vaccines we are getting. Sometimes the best of intentions has consequences, the road to hell and all. And I don’t think that the experts know for sure what could happen eventually. So I think that proceeding with caution is a reasonable thing to do.
            Some people are absolutely opposed to any vaccines whatsoever. I am not one of those people. I believe that they have been helpful in reducing diseases and viruses and people are better off for it. There are many very serious diseases that have caused a lot of suffering and because of vaccines most people nowadays have never seen any of them. So I don’t doubt their benefit to people.
            But I can’t help but think that there are also some people who look at this as a source of making money. Drugs (the legal kind) are a multi-billion dollar industry. And every new drug or vaccine can generate hundreds of millions of dollars in profits for them. And certainly you must know that there are some drugs that have been pulled from the market because they were harmful or fatal to people. And these are drugs that were approved by the FDA and deemed safe for people. So despite the fact that these are experts and there is system in place to make sure that we are kept safe from dangerous drugs, sometimes they manage to find their way into the market anyway. Despite the fact that these are experts, they are still people and they are not infallible. My point is that we shouldn’t throw caution to the wind and just assume that doctors know best and never question anything. We need to be educated consumers, especially when our health and our life is on the line. There is a sign hanging in my local hospital that says, ” If you think something is wrong, say something”. It’s not there because all the doctors are quacks, but because they are people, and people are not perfect, sometimes they make mistakes. And if we see something, we can potentially stop something from becoming a serious problem. And if it turns out to be nothing, it’s no big deal, better safe than sorry.
            That’s why I disagree with the content of this article. It basically says that we are all too stupid to question anything that any doctor says because we aren’t doctors. And I think that we need to work with our doctors to get the best healthcare. We don’t need to go through eight years of med school to be able to tell if something a doctor says or does is wrong if we take the time to learn about the specific situation we are dealing with or if the problem is obvious enough. If a doctor injects ten people with something, and seven of them die and two more end up on life support, I don’t need to be a doctor to say that something is terribly wrong with that. Obviously that is an exaggeration, but the point is that we don’t need to be doctors to be able to look at data and determine whether or not there is a problem if we have enough information to work with. Obviously there are people who jump to conclusions without having all the information, but I think that there are also people who have good intentions, whether they are right or wrong, that have some concerns. And I don’t see a problem with making sure that they are doing things the right way. It seems like whenever there is a lot of money at stake, there is some sort of corruption that goes with it. And in this situation it can effect our safety and our health. So I think it is acceptable for us to pay attention to what they are doing to ensure that they are not putting profits before safety. It wouldn’t be the first time that corruption has resulted in unnecessary illness and death.
            Is it really so bad to want to pay attention to the people who provide our healthcare as opposed to just blindly entrusting them with our lives and the lives of our children?
            People learn a little bit about cars so that when they bring it to the shop for repairs, they don’t get screwed. Are these people being smart consumers, or are they just arrogant fools because they are not mechanics and they should never question what gets done to their car?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 4, 2016 at 3:51 pm #

            Most people have a mild case of chicken pox.

            What is the typical case of the chicken pox? 7 – 10 days of highly itchy rash, contagious the whole time, starting with a day or two of fever. That’s pretty typical of everyone I have known to have it. The extreme is a lot worse, with 1/20 000 dying.

            Meanwhile what’s the typical response to the vaccine? Some (about a third) will have redness and swelling at the injection site for about a day. Most will have no effects by the time they leave the doctor’s office. And no dies.

            So a) I dispute your assertion that most people will have a mild case of chicken pox. While the standard case is not debilitating nor life threatening, it still really sucks. And b) if you think that the chicken pox is mild, the vaccine is far, far far milder. Even a bad reaction to the vaccine is better than your “mild” chicken pox.

            Or are you going to go with “getting the disease gives you lifetime immunity, although I’m not sayng it gives you lifelong immunity” bullshit again?

            What’s the fucking point of being immune if you have to get the disease? The goal of immunity is to make it so you DON’T get the disease.

          • Poogles
            April 4, 2016 at 4:36 pm #

            “Doctors already overuse antibiotics, and it is creating a bunch of resistant viruses and germs. The viruses are effectively being immunized against our medications and it is becoming increasingly difficult to treat people who have been infected with them. These antibiotics are also finding their way into our water and it is having a negative impact on our health.”

            Your ignorance is showing – antibiotics are not used against viruses, only bacterial infections, so no, viruses are not “effectively being immunized against our medications”. And for the bacteria that are becoming antibiotic-resistant, it is not because they’re being “immunized against our medications” either – it is because they mutate (i.e. evolve) to protect themselves from whatever mechanism the antibiotic uses to destroy it. Just as happens in nature – we have only sped up the process, not caused it.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 5:40 pm #

            Thank the Lord someone else caught and addressed this. You can throw all the antibiotics you want at a viral illness and it will do exactly diddly squat. Now, if you have a secondary bacterial infection from a subpar immune system BECAUSE of a viral illness, then antibiotics might be in order.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 5, 2016 at 2:18 am #

            Beyond that, vaccines and antibiotics work in very, very different ways, and there is little danger of overprescribing vaccines and causing tom to lose effectiveness the way antibiotics can.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 3:50 am #

            Yeah, as far as I know, no virus, bacteria, fungus, parasite, or even allergen has ever become “resistant” to antibody conjugation and clearance by the immune system. I suppose, there could be loss of antigen, which is probably one way cancer escapes immune surveillance, but if that happens, it happens for “natural” or vaccine induced immunity.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 3:48 am #

            Doctors already overuse antibiotics, and it is creating a bunch of resistant viruses and germs.

            Antibiotic overuse can not produce “resistant virsuses” because antibiotics have no effect at all on viruses, for good or bad. They do not treat viral illness and there is no mechanism by which overuse of antibiotics can evolutionarily select for a certain subpopulation of viruses that “resist” the antibiotics that, once again, have no effect on them. Antivirals, now, there is certainly a risk of evolutionarily selecting resistant strains of viruses with misuse or overuse of antivirals, but that’s usually due to poor compliance with medication. Take ALL the antivirals as prescribed or don’t start at all, folks.

            I don’t know what “germs” are exactly, but bacteria certainly can and do become resistant to certain antibiotics through overuse. That is why there is a major movement in medicine to reduce the use of antibiotics and target antibiotic use. Not to mention a huge explosion in the number of new antibiotic classes available. Also, misuse by the public is another problem: People stop taking antibiotics before their course is finished and that leads to resistance. And the whole livestock antibiotic issue, but I don’t know where we are with that one. Maybe one of the people with knowledge of animal health could comment?

            Finally, your lack of understanding of the very, very simple fact that viruses and bacteria are not the same thing should lead you to reconsider whether you are really “educated” about medicine and maybe get some information from legitimate sources before making decisions like not vaccinating that put not only your own but also others’ lives at risk.

          • demodocus
            April 3, 2016 at 4:55 pm #

            My sister caught cp a couple of times, both before the vaccination was available. Fortunately, both were fairly mild.

        • Linden
          April 4, 2016 at 4:11 am #

          SP_88 fourteen hours ago:
          ‘”There is no benefit to catching chicken pox”. There is. Lifetime immunity.’
          SP_88 thirteen hours ago:
          ‘I never said that it guaranteed lifetime immunity.’
          Your ability to deal with contradiction and cognitive dissonance is something to behold. My brain would have been trying to crawl out of my skull at this point.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 7:03 am #

            Oh yes, he has the Humpty Dumpties real bad-words mean what he says they mean. A common affliction of anti-vaxxers.

          • SP_88
            April 4, 2016 at 2:31 pm #

            Context. There is a difference between saying that something has a particular effect and guaranteeing that the effect will happen 100% of the time. Catching chicken pox does indeed give lifetime immunity. Do I guarantee that it will every single time? No. But the vaccine doesn’t give lifetime immunity after a single dose at all. And after a second booster shot it is still only a temporary effect, not lifetime.
            I stand behind my original statement.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 2:33 pm #

            You stand behind it, but you haven’t sourced it.

            Plus you have yet to address that the vaccine protects you without having to go through the pain of actually having chicken pox, which further means you are not at risk of shingles later in life.

          • Linden
            April 4, 2016 at 3:29 pm #

            The context is that you’re demanding 100% immunity for everyone forever from a single shot of vaccine, but the fact that that immunity from getting diseases is rarely if ever up to the same standard, you ignore. Got it. And you’re ignoring the fact that you need to be sick, possibly disabled, possibly dead. I guess getting a fatal infectious disease is one way of ensuring “lifelong immunity”.

        • Melaniexxxx
          April 6, 2016 at 1:09 am #

          Yes, suffering! People DIE from chicken pox. Just because you had a mild case means NOTHING. Mine was severe.

          • SP_88
            April 6, 2016 at 6:37 pm #

            Most people have a mild case. There are always exceptions. And the older you are when you catch chicken pox, the worse it is. My neighbor was vaccinated against it. But he caught it anyway. And he probably spread it to other people too. I was not vaccinated. But I had it as a child, so I was immune to it. And when my children caught it from a neighbor’s kid, I didn’t catch it.
            A vaccine is no guarantee of anything.

        • ChrisKid
          April 6, 2016 at 11:15 pm #

          The vaccine also generates long term immunity in most people. And yes, most people survive it. Survival doesn’t mean it’s a mild illness, however. I’m glad you and your children didn’t suffer serious consequences, but nobody with a heart would be so cavalier as to simply dismiss the fact that many are not so lucky.
          You can drop the ‘if your kids are vaccinated, why are you worried?’ garbage. In case you haven’t figured it out, we all live on this planet with all kinds of other people, some of whom are babies too young to be vaccinated, some of whom have other health challenges so they can’t be vaccinated, some of them children who’ve been deprived of disease protection by their parents. Unlike most of the AVers I’ve run across, we care about those around us.

      • SP_88
        April 3, 2016 at 1:44 pm #

        It’s funny how you go looking through other people’s profiles, but yours is private. What do you have to hide?

        • Box of Salt
          April 3, 2016 at 4:45 pm #

          SP_88 “It’s funny how you go looking through other people’s profiles,”

          Wrong. I scrolled down and read your other rambling comments.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 11:35 pm #

            Then how did you read something a year old when I just posted here today for the first time?

          • Azuran
            April 3, 2016 at 11:42 pm #

            Box of Salt didn’t say she read comments you made a year ago, he said he read a comment you put on a one year old post.
            In the menu on the right, you can see the latest comments made by people. So when you commented on that older post, it appeared on the side menu as a recent comment. No one is spying on you.

          • SP_88
            April 4, 2016 at 2:33 pm #

            I didn’t say it was spying. But fair enough, I stand corrected.

    • Richard
      April 3, 2016 at 11:50 am #

      I myself got my data on measles and tetanus from the CDC (the government’s own webste). The only argument that these emotional people gave me was “correlation is not causation” when I pointed out that there are over 30 to 70 times more deaths from the measles vaccine ANNUALLY than measles deaths despite unvaccinated populations of MILLIONS in the U.S. Here are some of the arguments used here to refute that:

      “You’re an idiot”
      You saw a Wakefield movie
      “Just a coincidence; correlation is not causation”
      “YOu are one of the anti-vaxxers” (I’m not)
      And a host of insults. Why, if these anti-vax haters are so emotional, can’t they argue with FACTS, not rehashed anti-vax hater blogs and websites. How about genuine DATA.

      • Daleth
        April 3, 2016 at 1:46 pm #

        “How about genuine data?” Good idea. Start by posting any support whatsoever for your completely imaginary belief that “there are over 30 to 70 times more deaths from the measles vaccine ANNUALLY than measles deaths.”

        • Richard
          April 3, 2016 at 5:38 pm #

          I have references in my various posts, but I will redo it when I have a moment tomorrow.

      • Sonja Henie
        April 4, 2016 at 3:15 pm #

        Oh, the H*ll there are 30 to 70 times more deaths from the measles vaccine annually than from disease. You may be referencing VAERS, which says right on its website that these reports do not imply causation. A recent study about death from vaccines showed that out of 8.5 million doses, there were PERHAPS two deaths due to vaccines.
        http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccination-mortality-risk-nothing-there/

        • Richard
          April 4, 2016 at 3:39 pm #

          Skepticalraptor is not only a questionable website, but it appears to be industry sponsored. Show me your reference and we can evaluate the study; not some anti-vax hater blog. And I don’t know what you mean “Oh the H*ll”. If you have an argument make it with real academic verifiable research; not blogs.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 3:44 pm #

            There are references inside the article. You obviously didn’t open the link.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 4:59 pm #

            Okay, I opened the link, read the article by skeptical raptor. While it sounds very scientific, the methodology is a white wash. Just a few examples:

            Eliminating ALL the chronic illness as though those couldn’t be caused by an introduction of a toxic substance is completely wrong.

            So this is a set up. Diabetes can be instantaneously induced. They do it with rats all the time, and it can be induced by toxins in humans. So if you introduce a “safe” delivery system to carry attenuated virus, the “safe” is highly questionable. “Safe” things are causing a dramatic increase in cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. So this study was PRODUCED IN ORDER TO WHITEWASH vaccines. If I had the time, we could find out if it was ghost written, or if there’s a big connection with Emory University Foundation (one of the proponents of the study and through donations) and pharma. We will probably quickly find that the sponsors or the foundations involved had pharma connections, or worked for pharma, and so on. This is a possibility, because I haven’t yet done the research. But here’s what you are doing. You have a conclusion, and you are finding anything that supports your conclusion. I have operating theories, and am trying to find out if I would be putting my children at risk one way or the other. Life is on the line. That’s why I can’t do half baked research like yours using industry studies and stealth websites sponsored by the drug industry.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 5:28 pm #

            Oh, bullsh*t! It just doesn’t fit your biases. This article is about DEATH from vaccines, not diabetes. Is that going to be the next thing, like smoking? What the H*ll kind of research do you do? What is your background. Please be specific.

            This article gives lie to the stories about kids just dropping dead within minutes to hours after vaccines. In 45 years of being a vaccine provider, I’ve NEVER seen or heard of such a thing happening, and this piece just reaffirms that it’s not happening.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 5:37 pm #

            Calm down sir. You use a blog for your research and say “what they hell kind of research do you do”? I can’t answer a drug company sponsored blog and study with serious information and research. You, sir, are a disgrace; an exemplar of the Dunning Kruger effect.

            YOu are also a lier. You imply that I said that kids drop dead minutes to hours after a vaccine. That is false. I never said anything even remotely similar to that.

            Your research is pitiful, your discourse is shamefully full of angry diatribes, and you are not worth discussing anything with until you calm down to legitimate discussion with REAL sources.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 6:36 pm #

            In other words, you’re losing the argument.

            I didn’t say you said that kids drop dead after vaccines, but you did refer to “30 to 70 times more deaths from the measles vaccine annually than from disease.” I post something to refute that, and you call me a liar. I should have posted the article referenced instead of the blog itself. Here it is. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/01/28/peds.2015-2970 It says substantially the same thing as the article, but it’s in dry, researcher language. Pediatrics is a respected professional journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics. You’re going off on all this conspiracy nonsense.

            From the journal article: “Discussion
            In this study, we examined causes of death after vaccination, and evaluated the association between vaccination and death. Over the 7-year study period, after the administration of 8 472 685 vaccines, we did not find any deaths in the 0- to 30-day window after vaccination beyond what was expected. In fact,the risk of death 0 to 30 days after any vaccine was decreased,
            regardless of cause of death.”

            You, meanwhile, have posted no documentation of your statement.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 6:52 pm #

            No I am not losing the argument. You quote absurdly biased sources on blogs. Blogs are not publications. Now you give me a reference that would cost $30 to get. But I checked the authors, and they are not clean and free from conflicts. Emory University? Nor is the methodology described on the blog clean and wholesome designed for unbiased results. Your quote has “weasle words”-“We did not find any deaths……”beyond what was expected”. So if their EXPECTATION was 100 deaths per year, then there was no EXTRA deaths. Here are a list of some of the earlier deaths from the death list on VAERS for measles and some of the recent ones. Tell me if they sound fake or attributable to some OTHER illness. You will note that they all seem to occur within a few days or on the same day of the inocculation. Do you want to go through all of them? We can, and you can see if your “study” is not trying to disguise real people dying with false statistical constructs.

            AND: By making a big deal about my claim about baby deaths on the same day as vaccine, (which I never made), look at some of these cases and tell those parents they are lying (it looks like these reports came from physicians, not crazy antivax parents).

            IN CONCLUSION: False researchers come to false conclusions. You are a false researcher.

            This is page 1 out of 11

            Result pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 next

            VAERS ID: 233373 (history) Vaccinated: 2005-02-01

            Age: 1.0 Onset: 2005-02-03, Days after vaccination: 2

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2005-02-03, Days after onset: 0

            Location: Georgia Entered: 2005-02-03

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2005-02-03

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: none

            Current Illness: Upper respiratory infection

            Preexisting Conditions: None

            Diagnostic Lab Data: Autopsy is pending

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            FLU3: INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE) SANOFI PASTEUR 41580AA 1 IM RL

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0608P 0 SC RA

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 0765P 0 SC LA

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown

            Symptoms: Apnoea, Hypothermia, Sudden infant death syndrome

            SMQs:, Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Accidents and injuries (broad), Neonatal disorders (narrow), Respiratory failure (narrow)

            Write-up: Patient was found this afternoon cold and not breathing. His resuscitation was not successful. Autopsy report received stated COD was SIDS.

            VAERS ID: 239690 (history) Vaccinated: 2005-06-03

            Age: 1.0 Onset: 2005-06-09, Days after vaccination: 6

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2005-06-10, Days after onset: 1

            Location: Nebraska Entered: 2005-06-10

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2005-06-09

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: 1)cetirizine 2.5 mg po q 24 hrs 2)fluticasone 44mcg oral inhalation aerosol, 2-3 puffs via Aerochamber mask q 12 hrs 3)ipratropium via nebulizer q 6 hrs or less frequently

            Current Illness: No acute illness. Reactive airway disease under good control. Mild anemia diagnosed 6/3/2005.

            Preexisting Conditions: Reactive airway disease, under good control at time of immunization. Recent PET placement for recurrent otitis. cow”s milk allergy; no anaphyllaxis.

            Diagnostic Lab Data: None

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0346P 0 SC LL

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 0989 0 SC RL

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown

            Symptoms: Apnoea, Cyanosis, Pulse absent

            SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (broad), Respiratory failure (narrow)

            Write-up: On the morning of 6/9/2005, patient was found in his crib apneic and without pulse. Resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful and the child was pronounced dead in the Emergency Room. Additional co start from Discharge summary rec”d 06/13/2005 — cyanosis.

            VAERS ID: 248538 (history) Vaccinated: 2005-11-22

            Age: 1.1 Onset: 2005-11-23, Days after vaccination: 1

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2005-11-25, Days after onset: 2

            Location: Pennsylvania Entered: 2005-12-02, Days after submission: 7

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2005-11-24

            Days after onset: 1

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: NONE

            Current Illness:

            Preexisting Conditions:

            Diagnostic Lab Data:

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            FLU3: INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE) SANOFI PASTEUR U1787DA 0

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 1072P 0

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 0418R 0

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Public

            Symptoms: Apnoea, Malaise, Upper respiratory tract infection

            SMQs:, Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Respiratory failure (narrow)

            Write-up: Patient became ill within 24 hours of vaccine administration with URI symptoms, He was then discovered by parents to have stopped breathing.

            VAERS ID: 250504 (history) Vaccinated: 2005-10-25

            Age: 1.0 Onset: 2005-10-30, Days after vaccination: 5

            Gender: Male Submitted: 0000-00-00

            Location: Virginia Entered: 2006-01-18

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2005-10-30

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications:

            Current Illness:

            Preexisting Conditions:

            Diagnostic Lab Data:

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            FLU3: INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE) SANOFI PASTEUR U1762AA

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0935P LL

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 0195P RL

            Administered by: Private Purchased by: Other

            Symptoms: Irritability, Pyrexia, Sudden infant death syndrome

            SMQs:, Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Hostility/aggression (broad), Neonatal disorders (narrow)

            Write-up: Child reportedly fussy, irritable and with mild fever during interval between vaccines and death. 2/27/06 Received autopsy report which reveals patient”s COD was Sudden Unexpected Death in Childhood/ss No new information found in medical records from PCP.

            VAERS ID: 257684 (history) Vaccinated: 2006-05-31

            Age: 1.3 Onset: 2006-06-01, Days after vaccination: 1

            Gender: Female Submitted: 2006-06-02, Days after onset: 1

            Location: Arkansas Entered: 2006-06-02

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2006-06-02

            Days after onset: 1

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: Prevacid, Tabs 15 mg Solutab PO Oxygen at home device Albuterol MDI, Inhaler, 90 mcg, Atrovent nasal Spray (0.03%) Metoclopramide, Syrup 5mg/5ml .8ml Nystatin Powder Was given Augmentin ES-600 susp, for otitis media the day she was in

            Current Illness: Otitis Media Bi latteral

            Preexisting Conditions: Gerd, Scoliosis- Idiopathic, Tracheomalacia,Wheezing, Developemental Delay, Speech Delay, Otitis Media-Chronic Supporative Bilateral

            Diagnostic Lab Data:

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            DTAP: DTAP (TRIPEDIA) AVENTIS PASTEUR U1774CA 1 IM RL

            HIBV: HIB (ACTHIB) AVENTIS PASTEUR UE795AA 2 IM LL

            IPV: POLIO VIRUS, INACT. (IPOL) AVENTIS PASTEUR YO991 1 IM LL

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0092F 0 SC LA

            PNC: PNEUMO (PREVNAR) LEDERLE LABORATORIES B08653R 2 IM RL

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 1022R 0 SC LL

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown

            Symptoms: Apnoea, Cardio-respiratory arrest, Circulatory collapse, Dehydration, Hypoxia, Neurodevelopmental disorder, Pneumonia, Pyrexia, Respiratory distress

            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Anaphylactic reaction (narrow), Asthma/bronchospasm (broad), Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Torsade de pointes, shock-associated conditions (narrow), Hypovolaemic shock conditions (narrow), Toxic-septic shock conditions (narrow), Anaphylactic/anaphylactoid shock conditions (narrow), Hypoglycaemic and neurogenic shock conditions (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Eosinophilic pneumonia (broad), Hypersensitivity (narrow), Respiratory failure (narrow)

            Write-up: Received immunizations in this office on 5/31/06. She was noted to have an otitis media withoutfever. Mother called the office on 6/1/06 and talked to the nurse because she was running a fever and not acting quite right. She was given standard instruction for post immunization. During the night she became febrile and started having respiratory difficulties with her pulse ox dropping into the 80”s. Mother drove her to the emergency room. In route the child became apneic. By the time she arrived she was asytolic. Rescussitation was unsuccessful. She had a temperature of 107 when she arrived in the ER.This patient had fever and cardiovascular colapse within 48 hours of immunization. I feel this was a major immunization reaction. 7/18/06 Received medical records from ER which reveal patient developed respiratory distress & failure. PMH: tracheomalacia, developmental delay, chronic respiratory deficitis & congenital heart defects. Had trach & PEG in place & was on home O2. Developed decreased LOC prior to hospitalization with cyanosis despite O2. Found to be febrile at 107, apneic & asystolic in ER & resuscitation was unsuccessful. 7/31/06 Received medical records from PCP which did not add new info. 8/9/06 Received Death Certificate which stated COD as pneumonia with dehydration with tracheomalacia as underlying cause./ss

            VAERS ID: 259715 (history) Vaccinated: 2006-05-12

            Age: 0.8 Onset: 2006-05-18, Days after vaccination: 6

            Gender: Female Submitted: 2006-07-18, Days after onset: 61

            Location: Missouri Entered: 2006-07-18

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2006-05-18

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: unknown

            Current Illness: postmortem=pneumonia

            Preexisting Conditions: unknown

            Diagnostic Lab Data: unknown time vaccine administered is also unknown but filled in a time so could complete form.

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            HIBV: HIB (PEDVAXHIB) MERCK & CO. INC. 1163R 2 IM LL

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0381R 0 SC RL

            VARCEL: VARICELLA (VARIVAX) MERCK & CO. INC. 1110R 0 SC RL

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown

            Symptoms: Febrile convulsion, Pulmonary oedema

            SMQs:, Cardiac failure (narrow), Convulsions (narrow), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Haemodynamic oedema, effusions and fluid overload (narrow), Generalised convulsive seizures following immunisation (narrow)

            Write-up: Infant febrile morning of 5/18/2006 around 5:30 a.m. No other S/S per parent. Parent administered tylenol. Midday infant began seizing, mom called 911, infant transported and later pronounced dead at hospital. 7/19/06 Received death certificate which stated COD as pulmonary edema due to protracted febrile seizure. 7/28/06 Received tag-2 report from PCP. Family had moved to another state. Records accompanying report included vax records, Death Summary from ER & Autopsy Report. COD stated as non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema as the result of febrile seizures/ss

            VAERS ID: 261871 (history) Vaccinated: 2006-08-18

            Age: 43.0 Onset: 2006-08-18, Days after vaccination: 0

            Gender: Female Submitted: 2006-08-21, Days after onset: 3

            Location: Maryland Entered: 2006-08-21

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2006-08-18

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: NONE KNOWN

            Current Illness:

            Preexisting Conditions:

            Diagnostic Lab Data:

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            HEP: HEP B (ENGERIX-B) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS AHBVB288AA 1 IM RA

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0215F SC LA

            Administered by: Private Purchased by: Private

            Symptoms: Cardiac arrest, Convulsion

            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Systemic lupus erythematosus (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Convulsions (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Generalised convulsive seizures following immunisation (narrow), Respiratory failure (broad)

            Write-up: Received MMR vaccine and Hepatitis B vaccine at 1:45 PM. Brought in to ER at 10:48 PM in full cardiac arrest. Apparently had witnessed seizure prior to arrest.

            VAERS ID: 266205 (history) Vaccinated: 2006-11-02

            Age: 1.1 Onset: 2006-11-02, Days after vaccination: 0

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2006-11-07, Days after onset: 5

            Location: Texas Entered: 2006-11-07

            Life Threatening? Yes

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2006-11-03

            Days after onset: 1

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? Yes

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: Patient reportedly was given Versed by EMT approximately 45 minutes before respiratory arrest

            Current Illness: none reported

            Preexisting Conditions: child was born at 34-35 gestation. Is a fraternal twin; sister received same immunizations at same visit on 11/2/06.

            Diagnostic Lab Data: WBC 44,800, Potassium 3.3; rectal temp in ER 101.8

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            FLU3: INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE) AVENTIS PASTEUR U2196AA 0

            IPV: POLIO VIRUS, INACT. (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER C0806 2

            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0950F 0

            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown

            Symptoms: Endotracheal intubation complication, Febrile convulsion, Leukocytosis, Medication error, Procedural complication, Pyrexia, Respiratory failure, White blood cell count increased

            SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (broad), Torsade de pointes, shock-associated conditions (broad), Hypovolaemic shock conditions (broad), Toxic-septic shock conditions (broad), Anaphylactic/anaphylactoid shock conditions (broad), Hypoglycaemic and neurogenic shock conditions (broad), Convulsions (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Generalised convulsive seizures following immunisation (narrow), Hypersensitivity (broad), Respiratory failure (narrow)

            Write-up: Apparently healthy 13 montly old fraternal male twin received vaccines (see below) at approximately 9AM on 11/2/06. Approximately 12 hours later child experienced seizure at home. EMT came to home and gave Versed to patient at about 10:30PM and child was brought to ER. Temp at ER 101.8 (rectal). At about 11:15PM child experienced respiratory failure, attempte was made to intubate; child pronounced dead at approximately 12:02AM on 11/3/06. 2/22/07 Received autopsy report which reveals COD as complications of midazolam administration following a s/p vaccination benign febrile seizure.

            VAERS ID: 269910 (history) Vaccinated: 2006-12-01

            Age: 1.2 Onset: 2006-12-12, Days after vaccination: 11

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2006-12-22, Days after onset: 10

            Location: California Entered: 2007-01-02, Days after submission: 11

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2006-12-12

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: NONE

            Current Illness:

            Preexisting Conditions:

            Diagnostic Lab Data:

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            DTAP: DTAP (INFANRIX) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS AC14B036AA 1 IM RL

            IPV: POLIO VIRUS, INACT. (IPOL) AVENTIS PASTEUR UT2175CA 0 IM RL

            MMRV: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA + VARICELLA (PROQUAD) MERCK & CO. INC. 1118F 0 SC RA

            Administered by: Private Purchased by: Private

            Symptoms: Coma, Death, Influenza like illness

            SMQs:, Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad)

            Write-up: Pt found unresponsive in bed at end of a nap, unable to resuscitate, went to ER and death pronounced. 4/6/07 Received Autopsy Report which reveals COD as Undetermined. Had flu like symptoms for few days prior to death. Found face down on mattress on floor of nursery in home.

            VAERS ID: 271683 (history) Vaccinated: 2007-01-26

            Age: 1.2 Onset: 2007-01-28, Days after vaccination: 2

            Gender: Male Submitted: 2007-01-29, Days after onset: 1

            Location: Indiana Entered: 2007-02-05, Days after submission: 7

            Life Threatening? No

            Died? Yes

            Date died: 2007-01-28

            Days after onset: 0

            Permanent Disability? No

            Recovered? No

            ER or Doctor Visit? No

            Hospitalized? No

            Previous Vaccinations:

            Other Medications: Ibuprofen, previously Pedicare

            Current Illness: URI

            Preexisting Conditions: NONE

            Diagnostic Lab Data: NONE

            CDC Split Type:

            Vaccination

            Manufacturer

            Lot

            Dose

            Route

            Site

            FLU3: INFLUENZA (SEASONAL) (FLUZONE) AVENTIS PASTEUR U2292AA 0 IM RL

            MMRV: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA + VARICELLA (PROQUAD) MERCK & CO. INC. 1203F 0 SC LL

            PNC: PNEUMO (PREVNAR) LEDERLE LABORATORIES 308682D 2 IM RL

            Administered by: Public Purchased by: Other

            Symptoms: Bronchopneumonia, Cardiomegaly, Contusion, Excoriation, Pulmonary congestion, Pulmonary oedema, Sepsis, Skin lesion, Tracheobronchitis

            SMQs:, Cardiac failure (narrow), Agranulocytosis (broad), Haemorrhage terms (excl laboratory terms) (narrow), Accidents and injuries (narrow), Haemodynamic oedema, effusions and fluid overload (narrow), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Eosinophilic pneumonia (broad)

            Write-up: Seen on 1/26/07 and received ProQuad, Prevnar, and Flu vaccine. According to grandmother died on Sunday. 4/17/2007 Received Autopsy Report which reveals COD as sepsis with bronchopneumonia & tracheobronchitis. Anatomic findings include: small abrasions on central forehead; marked congestion & edema of bilat lungs; enlarged heart; small contusion on right forhead; skin lesions around mouth & nares & dried mucous around nares.

            VAERS ID: 452195 (history) Vaccinated: 2009-03-09
            Age: 1.3 Onset: 2009-03-12, Days after vaccination: 3
            Gender: Female Submitted: 2012-03-20, Days after onset: 1104
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2012-03-21, Days after submission: 1
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 0000-00-00
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? Yes, ? days
            Extended hospital stay? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications: Unknown
            Current Illness: Bronchiolitis
            Preexisting Conditions: Gastrooesophageal reflux
            Diagnostic Lab Data: Magnetic resonance imaging, whole body: pericardial effusion 4mm in diameter; Diagnostic laboratory test, Blood smear did not show Jolly bodies and imaging or autopsy revealed the presence of a spleen. Serum C-reactive protein, 9 mg/ml; serum procalcitonin, 80 ng/ml; blood culture, Group B Neisseria menigitidis; Complement assays, normal; serum immunoglobulin G test, normal; serum immunoglobulin A test, normal; serum immunoglobulin M test, normal
            CDC Split Type: WAES1203USA01794
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER UN UN
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Adrenal haemorrhage, Autopsy, Blood culture positive, Blood immunoglobulin A normal, Blood immunoglobulin G normal, Blood immunoglobulin M normal, Blood smear test normal, C-reactive protein increased, Complement factor normal, Crying, Diet refusal, Imaging procedure, Livedo reticularis, Meningococcal infection, Neisseria test positive, Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging abnormal, Nuclear magnetic resonance imaging whole body, Pericardial effusion, Petechiae, Procalcitonin increased, Pyrexia, Red blood cell morphology normal, Respiratory arrest, Resuscitation, Sepsis, Skin warm
            SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Agranulocytosis (broad), Haemorrhage terms (excl laboratory terms) (narrow), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Systemic lupus erythematosus (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Haemodynamic oedema, effusions and fluid overload (narrow), Depression (excl suicide and self injury) (broad), Hypersensitivity (broad), Respiratory failure (narrow)
            Write-up: Case retrieved from the literature on 07-MAR-2012. Case medically confirmed. A 15-month-old female patient was found to have severe Neisseria Menigitidis infection after she received a dose of MMR (Manufacturer unknown, batch number not reported) on 09-MAR-2009. On 12-MAR-2009 (also reported as 12-MAR-2012) she had a single fever spike and her mother gave her a paracetamol suppository. The same day, in the evening, the patient refused to eat and she slept with her mother. At 2:00 am, the patient”s cries woke her mother up. The patient”s body was hot but her temperature was not taken. She was given 30 mL of water and a further paracetamol suppository by her mother. She went back to sleep. She was found lying on her stomach in respiratory arrest when her mother woke up at 8:00 a.m. Firemen and then (emergency medical service) unsuccessfully tried to resuscitate her. She was taken to the hospital. On clinical examination, livedo was noted on her whole body, and petechiae and mottled patterns on her chest. Tests done on an intracardiac sample found CRP on 9 mg/mL and procalcitonin of 80 ng/mL. Whole- body MRI only showed a pericardial effusion of 4 mm. The autopsy revealed massive adrenal hemorrhage suggestive of sepsis. Blood culture was positive for group B Neisseria Menigitidis sensitive to amoxicillin. An immune deficiency was sought. Evaluation of complement and quantitative measurement of immunoglobulins (IgG, IgA and IgM) were normal. Blood smear did not show Jolly bodies and imaging or autopsy revealed the presence of a spleen. To be noted that the patient was born at 36 weeks and 6 days of amenorrhea. Her birth weight was 2.630 kg. She had a medical history of gastrooesophageal reflux (an episode) treated with domperidone and omeprazole, and recurrent bronchiolitis. Her vaccinations were up to date. Her psychomotor development was normal. Other business partner numbers included E2012-01702. Additional information has been requested.
            VAERS ID: 455370 (history) Vaccinated: 2012-04-26
            Age: 1.4 Onset: 2012-05-01, Days after vaccination: 5
            Gender: Male Submitted: 2012-05-10, Days after onset: 9
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2012-05-11, Days after submission: 1
            Life Threatening? Yes
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2012-05-04
            Days after onset: 3
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? Yes, ? days
            Extended hospital stay? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness:
            Preexisting Conditions: Fever; Upper respiratory tract infection
            Diagnostic Lab Data: Head computed axial tomography, 01May12, showed outcomes of anoxic damage; chest X-ray, 01May12, normal; electrocardiogram, 01May12, normal; arterial blood pH, 01May12, 6.82, abnormal; body temp, 01May12, 37.7 degrees C; serum L-lactate test, 01May12, 10, increased; serum L-lactate test, 01May12, 3.1; arterial blood PH, 02May12, 7.16; enterovius PCR, 04May12, positive; serum Herpes simplex virus IgG antibody, 04May12, Herpes virus 6 serology: Positive
            CDC Split Type: WAES1205USA01055
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. 0717AA 0 IM AR
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Acidosis, Blood lactic acid, Blood pH decreased, Brain hypoxia, CSF test abnormal, Cardiac arrest, Cerebral ischaemia, Chest X-ray normal, Computerised tomogram head abnormal, Convulsion, Death, Echography normal, Electrocardiogram normal, Enterovirus test positive, Herpes simplex serology positive, Human herpes virus 6 serology positive, Hypoperfusion, Hypoxic-ischaemic encephalopathy, Lactic acidosis, Loss of consciousness, Mouth haemorrhage, Polymerase chain reaction, Restlessness, Resuscitation
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Lactic acidosis (narrow), Haemorrhage terms (excl laboratory terms) (narrow), Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Systemic lupus erythematosus (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Ischaemic central nervous system vascular conditions (narrow), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Torsade de pointes, shock-associated conditions (broad), Hypovolaemic shock conditions (broad), Toxic-septic shock conditions (broad), Anaphylactic/anaphylactoid shock conditions (broad), Hypoglycaemic and neurogenic shock conditions (broad), Dementia (broad), Convulsions (narrow), Embolic and thrombotic events, vessel type unspecified and mixed arterial and venous (narrow), Akathisia (broad), Oropharyngeal conditions (excl neoplasms, infections and allergies) (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (narrow), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (broad), Generalised convulsive seizures following immunisation (narrow), Tumour lysis syndrome (broad), Respiratory failure (broad)
            Write-up: Case reported by Health Authority (case n. 165454) through agency (local case n. IT210/12). Initial case received on 03-MAY-2012. Case medically confirmed. A 17 month old male patient was vaccinated on 26-APR-2012 with the first dose of MMR II, (batch n. G014794, lot n. 671487/0717AA), I.M. in the deltoid. On 01-MAY-2012, 5 days post-vaccination, at 17:58 he was hospitalized due to a cardiac arrest. The case history during the hospitalization evidenced that the child, since birth, was hospitalized 5 times mainly due to fever and infections of the upper respiratory tract. The fifth hospitalization on 16-NOV-2011, was following the 3rd dose of INFANRIX HEXA, (on 15-NOV-2011) due to fever and convulsions. On the early morning of 01-MAY-2012 at 04:30 a.m., the child presented with fever (37.7 degrees C) that the parents treated with paracetamol. Until 12:00 p.m. the child was restless but ate normally and slept afterwards. At 16:30 p.m. the parents found the child unconscious in bed with traces of blood in the mouth and on the pillow. The father resuscitated him and called the emergency unit that took the child to the hospital. At 17:58 p.m. he was admitted in the pediatric emergency room where he was resuscitated presenting with severe hypoperfusion acidosis and brain hypoxia; suspicion of convulsive crisis during sleep, no signs of brain hemorrhage. Labwork and investigations were performed (see lab comments screen) that evidenced: normal RX (x-ray) thorax; normal electrocardiogram (ECG); normal echography; abnormal brain computerized tomography (CT) scan (outcomes of anoxic damage) and lactic acidosis. The diagnosis of emergency admission was cardiac arrest, cerebral ischaemia, and lactic acidosis. The outcome was not recovered/not resolved. Additional information received from Health Authority (HA) on 04-MAY-2012: Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) analysis by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and blood tested positive for enterovirus and negative for human herpes virus 6. The patient died on 04-MAY-2012. The case was closed. A lot check has been initiated. Other business partner numbers included: E2012-02892. No further information is available.
            VAERS ID: 457587 (history) Vaccinated: 2012-05-25
            Age: 1.5 Onset: 2012-06-02, Days after vaccination: 8
            Gender: Male Submitted: 2012-06-14, Days after onset: 12
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2012-06-18, Days after submission: 4
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2012-06-03
            Days after onset: 1
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? Yes
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness:
            Preexisting Conditions: Hospitalized a half year before this report, declared as cured, however still cough and sniveling; Chronic bronchitis; First dose, PREVENAR-13
            Diagnostic Lab Data:
            CDC Split Type: 2012137809
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (PRIORIX) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS UN UN
            PNC13: PNEUMO (PREVNAR13) PFIZER/WYETH F82152 1 IM AR
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Autopsy, Blood test, Bronchitis chronic, Cardiac arrest, Cardiac infection, Condition aggravated, Death, Myocardial infarction, Pyrexia
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Myocardial infarction (narrow), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Embolic and thrombotic events, arterial (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Respiratory failure (broad)
            Write-up: This is a spontaneous report from newspapers and local television news and confirmed by a contactable physician, medical quality coordinator from health care organization. This physician reported that a 18-month-old male patient received PREVENAR 13, via intramuscular route in arm at 0.5 ml, single (lot number F82152, expiration date Jul2014), combined with a vaccination for PRIORIX on 25May2012. Medical history included chronic bronchitis (hospitalized a half year before this report, declared as cured, however still cough and sniveling) and respiratory syncytial virus infection (RSV infection). The patient”s concomitant medications were not reported. On 27 Jan2011, the subject had received the first dose of PREVENAR 13 via intramuscular route in arm. The second dose was administered on 25May2012 as a catch-up vaccination. At that time the child had superficial rattles and had no acute disease. Auscultation revealed no abnormalities. No serious symptoms were observed which could be consequence of the past RSV infection (according to the parents, this was the predestinating factor through which the vaccination could result in death). After vaccination, the patient experienced an aggravation of the chronic bronchitis and the infection transferred from the lungs to the heart, resulting in a myocardial infarction with fatal outcome. The patient died on 03Jun2012. An autopsy was planned and judicial inquiry is initiated. The general practitioner, who knew the child and had been treating him in the past, was consulted after the death and this physician could not make a link between the patient”s medical history of RSV infection, chronic respiratory illness and the vaccinations. The emergency physician who examined the child after the emergency call from the parents declared that the patient already deceased during his sleep, and did not consider a link between vaccination and death. The judicial physician who performed an external autopsy and took a blood sample, would have declared that the child had or went through an RSV infection (this information was received from others and the media). Further examination was planned (internal autopsy on 11Jun2012). The subject”s parents declared through the media that the child had high fever the evening before his death, which was treated with an analgesic (possibly paracetamol) with good response. The reporting physician could not confirm myocardial infarction but preferred the term sudden death awaiting further autopsy results. The reporting physician also declared there was no reason to assume there was a causal relationship between the patient”s death and the administration of the vaccine 9 days before the event. A copy of the publication of this case in the local newspaper, dated 09Jun2012, was provided. The article reported: “On Monday an additional autopsy will be performed to determine the cause of death of the toddler. The toddler of 18 months had a cardiac arrest at home last Sunday after a consultation. The police physician did not find foreign substances at the external autopsy and concluded that it was a natural death. The parents remain convinced that their son died because of the wrong vaccination.” This case was also reported to the foreign regulatory authority.
            VAERS ID: 459502 (history) Vaccinated: 2012-05-23
            Age: 9.0 Onset: 2012-05-28, Days after vaccination: 5
            Gender: Female Submitted: 2012-07-13, Days after onset: 46
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2012-07-17, Days after submission: 4
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 0000-00-00
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness: Immunisation
            Preexisting Conditions:
            Diagnostic Lab Data: 05/29/2012, Autoantibody test, negative, several; 05/29/2012, Biopsy heart, No myocarditis, no cardiomyopathy; 05/29/2012, Biopsy muscle, No anomalies; 05/28/2012, Computerised tomogram, intracranial hemorrhage; 05/28/2012, Echocardiogram, Abnormal; 05/28/2012, Platelet count, Normal; 05/29/2012, Viral test, Negative, No acute infections
            CDC Split Type: WAES1207NLD000192
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            DTIPV: DT + IPV (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER 143C 5 UN UN
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER G007672 1 UN UN
            Administered by: Other Purchased by: Other
            Symptoms: Autoantibody negative, Biopsy heart normal, Brain herniation, Cardiac output, Cerebellar haemorrhage, Cerebellar infarction, Computerised tomogram head abnormal, Death, Echocardiogram abnormal, Epistaxis, Headache, Hyporesponsive to stimuli, Microbiology test normal, Platelet count normal, Pyrexia, Resuscitation, Syncope, Viral test negative, Vomiting
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Acute pancreatitis (broad), Haemorrhage terms (excl laboratory terms) (narrow), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Ischaemic central nervous system vascular conditions (narrow), Haemorrhagic central nervous system vascular conditions (narrow), Embolic and thrombotic events, vessel type unspecified and mixed arterial and venous (narrow), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Gastrointestinal nonspecific symptoms and therapeutic procedures (narrow), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (broad)
            Write-up: Case received from the Health Authorities on 29-Jun-2012 under the reference number NL-LRB-139774. Medically confirmed. Initial source was a physician (also reported as a specialist doctor, pediatric intensive care). Case reported as serious by the agency (criterion: death). A 9-year-old female patient (weight 30 kg) had received the second dose of MMRVAXPRO (batch number G007672, administration site unknown) and the sixth dose of NVI (batch number 143C, administration site unknown) on 23-May-2012 in the Childhood Immunisation Programme. Concomitant medication was not reported. The day after the vaccinations, the patient developed fever, with 4 nose bleeds and headache at day 2 and 3. It was unknown if she had dizziness or diplopia, there was no rhinorroea. Nose bleeds were never experienced before. In the afternoon of day 4 she had somewhat recovered and went swimming. In the early morning of day 5 she got up from bed with suddenly severe headache and vomiting, and collapsed. She was resuscitated 5 times, transported to the regional hospital, which referred her to a university medical centre for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) therapy, for which anticoagulant therapy is required. At the centre, she had a massive infarction from the arteria basilaris was found by brain CT scanning, with signs of transtentorial herniation. There was decreasing response to stimuli. Further treatment was not done after the which the patient died. Medical history: The patient had no known medical history. She was said to be healthy with good endurance. She had no known past drug therapy. Physical findings and investigations: CT scan cerebrum 28-May-2012: massive hemorrhage and infarction in the right cerebellar region from the arteria basilaris was found by brain scanning, with signs of transtentional herniation and cerebellar edema. Postmortem investigations: the parents did not consent to autopsy, but agreed to less invasive diagnostics. A heart muscle biopsy was done to investigate cardiac anomalies (myocarditis/cardiomyopathy: pathology was normal and no signs of viral infection). Other areas of investigation: microbiology (no indication of acute viral infection), coagulation disorders (normal platelet, no indications of preexisting bleeding disorders), further brain pathology (CT scan brain not suitable to evaluate presence of vascular anomalies eg aneurisms). Treatment and clinical course: After the collapse incident she was resuscitated. Cardiac output was marginal due to diminished contractility and dilatation, however initially responsive to adrenalin. There were no signs for thombotic process elsewhere. Then ECMO treatment was started till it became clear that massive brain damage had occurred. Postmortem myocarditis and cardiomyopathy were excluded, there were no indication for an acute infection, no auto-immune disorder, no thrombocytopenia. Causality assessment and concluding summary: Causality for the eventually fatal intracranial hemorrhage and vaccinations was considered unlikely. This unique but tragic condition had not been reported earlier, and is most likely caused by another yet unknown mechanism. There is no biologic explanation, and the timing of events is inconsistent with known side effects of these vaccines. The following MedDRA LLT was coded by the agency: Intracrainial hemorrhage (5days). Patient outcome: fatal. No further information expected.
            VAERS ID: 492482 (history) Vaccinated: 2013-04-22
            Age: 1.0 Onset: 2013-04-24, Days after vaccination: 2
            Gender: Male Submitted: 2013-05-22, Days after onset: 28
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2013-05-24, Days after submission: 2
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2013-04-26
            Days after onset: 2
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness:
            Preexisting Conditions: Unknown
            Diagnostic Lab Data: 22-APR-2013, Body temperature, 36.9 Centigrade; 24-APR-2013, Body temperature, 39.0 Centigrade; 25-APR-2013, Body temperature, 38.7 Centigrade
            CDC Split Type: 2013153382
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MER: MEASLES + RUBELLA (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER MR197 0 SC UN
            PNC: PNEUMO (PREVNAR) PFIZER/WYETH 12F04A 3 SC UN
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Cardio-respiratory arrest, Death, Pyrexia, Rhinorrhoea, Vomiting
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Acute pancreatitis (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Gastrointestinal nonspecific symptoms and therapeutic procedures (narrow), Respiratory failure (broad)
            Write-up: This is a spontaneous report from a contactable pediatrician. This is a report received from the Ministry of Health. Regulatory authority report number V13000173. A 12-month-old male patient received the fourth dose of PREVENAR (Lot Number: 12F04A) subcutaneous on 22Apr2013 at1 14:10 at a single dose, the first dose of MEARUBIK (Lot Number: MR197), subcutaneous on 22Apr2013 at 14:10 at a single dose. The patient”s medical history was not reported. The patient”s concomitant medications were not reported. The patient”s body temperature before the vaccination was 36.9 degrees Centigrade. Vaccination was done by the reporting pediatrician. In the evening of 24Apr2013, he experienced the event, vomiting once. At 23:00 on 24Apr2013, he developed pyrexia at 39.0 degrees Centigrade. Unspecified antipyretics were given. On 25Apr2013 at 09:15 A.M. the patient visited the reporter”s hospital on an outpatient basis. Body temperature was 38.7 degrees Centigrade. His general condition was not bad after breakfast and he had no vomiting. On 25Apr2013, he developed nasal discharge. Therapeutic measures were taken in response to the event, nasal discharge included ASVERIN, MUCODYNE and PARACETA (suppository). On 26Apr2013, the police station informed the reporting physician that the patient was found in the state of cardio-respiratory arrest in the morning and subsequently, he was transferred to a hospital and pronounced dead. The event, cardio-respiratory arrest, was serious due to death. The clinical outcome of the event, vomiting, was recovered on 25Apr2013. The clinical outcome of the events, pyrexia and nasal discharge, was unknown. The cause of death was unknown. It was unknown whether autopsy was performed. According to the reporting pediatrician”s opinion, a causal relationship between the events and the vaccinations could not be judged on the basis of insufficient information about clinical course following his visit to the reporter’s hospital on 25Apr2013 and about clinical findings given by the hospital on 26Apr2013. No follow-up attempts possible. No further information expected.
            VAERS ID: 494500 (history) Vaccinated: 2013-04-18
            Age: 1.1 Onset: 0000-00-00
            Gender: Male Submitted: 2013-06-17
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2013-06-19, Days after submission: 2
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2013-05-19
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? Yes, ? days
            Extended hospital stay? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness:
            Preexisting Conditions: Unknown
            Diagnostic Lab Data:
            CDC Split Type: 2013180058
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (PRIORIX) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS A69CD124A IM UN
            PNC13: PNEUMO (PREVNAR13) PFIZER/WYETH G49220 IM UN
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Bacterial sepsis, Death, Streptococcal sepsis
            SMQs:, Agranulocytosis (broad)
            Write-up: This is a spontaneous report from a contactable physician received from the regulatory authority. Regulatory authority report number DHH-N2013-61929. A 13 months old male patient received PREVENAR 13 0.5 ml single dose lot nr G49220, intramuscular on 18Apr2013, and also received PRIORIX lot nr A69CD124A, intramuscular on 18Apr2013. The patient medical history and the patient”s concomitant medications were not reported. The patient was hospitalized for unknown date and experienced bacterial streptococcus sepsis on 19May2013 with outcome fatal. It was not reported if an autopsy was performed. The reporter considered there was no relationship between the event and the immunisation. Follow-up attempts completed. No further information expected.
            VAERS ID: 495781 (history) Vaccinated: 2011-12-05
            Age: 1.0 Onset: 0000-00-00
            Gender: Female Submitted: 2013-07-02
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2013-07-02
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 0000-00-00
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness: Unknown
            Preexisting Conditions:
            Diagnostic Lab Data: Body temperature, Dec 2011, 36Deg. C; Physical examination, Dec2011, Dehydrated
            CDC Split Type: B0811004A
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            HIBV: HIB (HIBERIX) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS 3 SYR UN
            MEN: MENINGOCOCCAL (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER 0 SYR UN
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (PRIORIX) GLAXOSMITHKLINE BIOLOGICALS 0 SYR UN
            PNC13: PNEUMO (PREVNAR13) PFIZER/WYETH 3 SYR UN
            Administered by: Other Purchased by: Other
            Symptoms: Apoptosis, Autopsy, Cardiac arrest, Coxsackie virus test negative, Culture throat positive, Death, Dehydration, Diarrhoea, Inflammation, Morbillivirus test positive, Muscle necrosis, Myocarditis, Pericardial drainage test normal, Pharyngitis, Pyrexia, Vomiting
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Rhabdomyolysis/myopathy (narrow), Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Acute pancreatitis (broad), Agranulocytosis (broad), Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Pseudomembranous colitis (broad), Oropharyngeal infections (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Gastrointestinal nonspecific symptoms and therapeutic procedures (narrow), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Noninfectious diarrhoea (narrow), Respiratory failure (broad)
            Write-up: This case was reported by a paediatrician and described the occurrence of fatal myocarditis in a 13-month-old female subject who was vaccinated with PRIORIX, HIBERIX (GlaxoSmithKline), PREVENAR 13 (non-GSK) and NEISVAC-C. On an unspecified date, the subject received unspecified dose of PRIORIX (unknown route of administration, unknown site of injection, batch number not provided). 8 days after vaccination with PRIORIX, the subject experienced fatal myocarditis. The subject died, the cause of death was fatal myocarditis. It was unknown whether an autopsy was performed. No further information was expected. Follow-up information received on 27 August 2012: Despite several attempts, no further information could be obtained. Therefore, this case has been closed. Follow-up information received on 28 June 2013 from a paediatrician via public health representative: The subject had no relevant medical history. On 5 December 2011, the subject received 4th dose of HIBERIX, 1st dose of PRIORIX, 4th dose of PREVENAR 13 and 1st dose of NEISVAC-C (unknown routes and injection sites, batch numbers not provided). In December 2011, 14 days after vaccination with HIBERIX, NEISVAC-C, PREVENAR 13 and PRIORIX, the subject experienced fever and pharyngitis. The subject was treated with antibiotics. 2 days later, the subject experienced vomiting and diarrhea. She was admitted to hospital. She was assessed to be moderately dehydrated and commenced on nasogastric tube fluids. The subject was afebrile (body temperature at 36 Deg. C). The physician considered the events were possible related to vaccination with HIBERIX, PRIORIX, PREVENAR 13 and NEISVAC-C. Approximately 2 hours after admission, the subject experienced cardiac arrest and died from myocarditis. An autopsy was performed and showed severe transmural chronic inflammation with associated myocyte necrosis and apoptosis. There was also noted to be inflammation in the epicardium. A throat swab at autopsy was vaccine strain measles (Genotype A) and Coxsackie A9 virus from a right tonsil swab. Pericardial fluid and myocardial samples were reportedly negative for measles virus (vaccine and wild type) and Coxsackie Ap virus. This case was identified as duplicate B0903851A. Case B0903851A was voided and all the future correspondence will be added int he present case which stands as case of record for this subject.
            VAERS ID: 518671 (history) Vaccinated: 2013-01-11
            Age: Onset: 0000-00-00
            Gender: Unknown Submitted: 0000-00-00
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2014-01-08
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 0000-00-00
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications: No other medications
            Current Illness: Immunisation
            Preexisting Conditions:
            Diagnostic Lab Data:
            CDC Split Type: WAES1401GBR001023
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER UN UN
            Administered by: Other Purchased by: Other
            Symptoms: Foetal exposure during pregnancy, Stillbirth
            SMQs:, Pregnancy, labour and delivery complications and risk factors (excl abortions and stillbirth) (narrow), Termination of pregnancy and risk of abortion (narrow)
            Write-up: Information has been received from SPMSD (GB-1577272925-E2013-11422) on 30-DEC-2014. This case was received from the PHE on 30-DEC-2013 and was linked to mother report E2013-03104, PHE Ref: 594. This case was medically confirmed. This case concerns a foetal patient who received MMR vaccine, batch and manufacturer not reported on 11-JAN-2013 transplacentally. On an unreported date, at 31 weeks gestation the patient”s mother experienced a stillbirth of the patient for an unknown reason. The patient was described as normal. The patient”s mother LMP date was 01-JAN-2013 and the EDD of the patient was 08-OCT-2013. The patient”s mother experienced one previous pregnancy for which she underwent an elective termination in 2007.
            VAERS ID: 519964 (history) Vaccinated: 2013-10-24
            Age: 1.9 Onset: 0000-00-00
            Gender: Male Submitted: 2014-01-21
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2014-01-21
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2013-10-26
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? Yes
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications: No other medications
            Current Illness: Immunisation
            Preexisting Conditions: Asthma; 10/17/2013 – 10/20/2013, Vomiting; 10/17/2013 – 10/20/2013, Diarrhoea; 10/17/2013 – 10/20/2013, Pyrexia; 10/17/2013 – 10/20/2013, Infection
            Diagnostic Lab Data: Procalcitonin (26-OCT-2013): 6.67 microgram/liter; 10/26/2013, Alanine aminotransferase, 23 IU/l; 10/26/2013, Aspartate aminotransferase, 110 IU/l; 10/26/2013, Blood glucose, 1.3 g/l; 10/26/2013, Blood lactic acid, 13 not provided; 10/26/2013, Blood potassium, 4.9 mmol/l; 10/26/2013, Blood pressure, 112/74 not provided; 10/26/2013, Blood sodium, 144 mmol/l; 10/26/2013, C-reactive protein, 38 mg/l; 10/26/2013, Calcium ionised, 1.13 mmol/l; 10/26/2013, Carboxyhaemoglobin, 1.1%; 10/26/2013, Coma scale, 3 not provided; 10/26/2013, Electrocardiogram, Flatline, no cardiac electrical activity; 10/26/2013, Electroencephalogram, No electrical activity; 10/26/2013, Haemoglobin, 11.8 g/dL; 10/26/2013, Heart rate, 156 bpm; 10/26/2013, Influenza virus t
            CDC Split Type: WAES1401FRA008865
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MMR: MEASLES + MUMPS + RUBELLA (MMR II) MERCK & CO. INC. J007072 IM UN
            Administered by: Other Purchased by: Other
            Symptoms: Alanine aminotransferase normal, Aspartate aminotransferase increased, Asthma, Blood glucose, Blood lactic acid increased, Blood methaemoglobin present, Blood potassium increased, Blood sodium normal, C-reactive protein increased, Calcium ionised decreased, Carboxyhaemoglobin normal, Cardio-respiratory arrest, Coma scale abnormal, Condition aggravated, Cough, Cyanosis, Death, Dyspnoea, Electrocardiogram abnormal, Electroencephalogram abnormal, Erythema, Haemodynamic instability, Haemoglobin normal, Hyperhidrosis, Hypotonia, Increased upper airway secretion, Influenza virus test negative, Mechanical ventilation, Methaemoglobinaemia, Mydriasis, Ophthalmological examination abnormal, PCO2 normal, Procalcitonin increased, Pyrexia, Respiratory distress, Respiratory syncytial virus test negative, Resuscitation, Toxicologic test normal, Unresponsive to stimuli, Viral infection, Wheezing, White blood cell count increased, pH body fluid decreased
            SMQs:, Torsade de pointes/QT prolongation (broad), Liver related investigations, signs and symptoms (narrow), Anaphylactic reaction (narrow), Angioedema (broad), Asthma/bronchospasm (narrow), Lactic acidosis (narrow), Peripheral neuropathy (broad), Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Arrhythmia related investigations, signs and symptoms (broad), Shock-associated circulatory or cardiac conditions (excl torsade de pointes) (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Pulmonary hypertension (broad), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Noninfectious encephalitis (broad), Noninfectious encephalopathy/delirium (broad), Noninfectious meningitis (broad), Optic nerve disorders (broad), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Corneal disorders (broad), Eosinophilic pneumonia (broad), Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (narrow), Generalised convulsive seizures following immunisation (broad), Chronic kidney disease (broad), Hypersensitivity (broad), Tumour lysis syndrome (broad), Respiratory failure (narrow)
            Write-up: Information received from Sanofi Pasteur MSD (SPM) (E2014-00274) on 13-JAN-2014. Case received from the Health Authorities on 13-Jan-2014 under the reference number AN20140011. A 1-year-old male patient with a medical history of asthmatic bronchitis, had received a dose of M-M-RVAXPRO (batch number J007072) intramuscularly on 24-Oct-2013 and after vaccination, during the night from 24 to 25-Oct, he experienced coughing fits. On 25-Oct-2013 afternoon, he developed fever with facial erythrosis and hypotonia. He was given DOLIPRANE. It is noteworthy that he had had a first infectious episode with fever at 39 degrees C, diarrhoea and vomiting which started on 17-Oct-2013 and lasted for 3 days. During the night from 25 to 26-Oct, he had difficulty breathing with coughing fits and sweats and by the end of the night he experienced wheezing and dyspnea. On 26-Oct-2013 in the morning, the patient developed cyanosis and then had a cardiorespiratory arrest whilst being taken to the emergency department in his parent”s car. He arrived at the emergency department at 11:29 a.m. A resuscitation procedure, i.e. mask ventilation and cardiac massage, was initiated. The patient was given 2 doses of adrenalin (0.01 mg/kg) via an intraosseus catheter and his heart resumed beating. He was quickly transferred to the resuscitation unit for further care. Upon admission, the patient was found to have blood pressure of 112/74, heart rate of 156/min, oxygen saturation of 99% with FiO2 of 25%. He was completely unresponsive and he was found to have unresponsive bilateral mydriasis. His Glasgow Coma Scale score was assessed to be 3. Numerous pearly white sticky secretions on the glottis were noticed whilst intubating the patient. When the patient was in the emergency department, ECG showed no cardiac electrical activity. Laboratory tests showed pH of 7, PCO2 of 37 after 1 hour of effective ventilation, sodium of 144 mmol/L, potassium of 4.9 mmol/L, ionized calcium of 1.13 mmol/L, blood glucose of 1.3 g/L, lactates of 13, hemoglobin of 11.8 g/dL, leukocytes of 34900 G/L, procalcitonin of 6.67 ug/L, C-reactive protein of 38 mg/L, aspartate aminotransferase of 110 IU/L, alanine aminotransferase of 23 IU/L, carboxyhaemoglobin of 1.1% and methemoglobinemia of 0.7%. Toxicity tests showed negative results. Influenza virus and Respiratory syncytial virus tests showed also negative results. A corrective treatment with dobutamine and dopamine was given via the intraosseus catheter. Around 3:30 p.m., the patient was gasping for breath and his hemodynamic status gradually deteriorated making treatment with noradrenaline necessary, but hemodynamic stability could not be achieved. Two EEGs were carried out and both showed no electrical activity. The patient died at 10:15 p.m. after discontinuation of the resuscitation. No autopsy was requested. The Health Authority concluded that a 22-month-old patient died from respiratory distress and cardiorespiratory arrest 48 hours after receiving a dose of M-M-RVAXPRO. The resuscitation team considered cardiorespiratory arrest was caused by severe acute asthma in a context of viral-like infection. The Health Authority assessed the causal relationship between the reported reactions and vaccination as doubtful (VAXIGRIP: C1 S1 B1 I1) according to the updated foreign method of assessment.
            VAERS ID: 520007 (history) Vaccinated: 2014-01-02
            Age: 0.8 Onset: 2014-01-02, Days after vaccination: 0
            Gender: Female Submitted: 2014-01-17, Days after onset: 15
            Location: Foreign Entered: 2014-01-21, Days after submission: 4
            Life Threatening? No
            Died? Yes
            Date died: 2014-01-03
            Days after onset: 1
            Permanent Disability? No
            Recovered? No
            ER or Doctor Visit? No
            Hospitalized? No
            Previous Vaccinations:
            Other Medications:
            Current Illness:
            Preexisting Conditions: Breast feeding; 01-JAN-2014, Malaise
            Diagnostic Lab Data: 02-JAN-2014, Body temperature, 38.1 Centigrade; 02-JAN-2014, Body temperature, 37.3 Centigrade; 02-JAN-2014, Body temperature, 36.6 Centigrade; 03-JAN-2014, Body temperature, 38.0 Centigrade; 03-JAN-2014, Body temperature, 36.3 Centigrade; Body temperature, 39.7 Centigrade; Physical examination (02Jan2014): Head circumference: 46 cm; HIV status (02Jan2014): negative; TB screening (02Oct2013): no TB Symptoms; TB screening (02Jan2014): no TB Symptoms; Respiration (03Jan2014): 75 breaths per minute; lungs-crepitations
            CDC Split Type: 2014011896
            Vaccination
            Manufacturer
            Lot
            Dose
            Route
            Site
            MEA: MEASLES (NO BRAND NAME) UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER J5359 UN UN
            PNC13: PNEUMO (PREVNAR13) PFIZER/WYETH G25976 IM UN
            Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: Unknown
            Symptoms: Death, Drug ineffective, Dry mouth, Dyspnoea, HIV test negative, Haemoglobin decreased, Muscle twitching, Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex test negative, Pneumonia, Poor sucking reflex, Pyrexia, Rales, Swelling, Thirst, Tongue discolouration, Vomiting
            SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (narrow), Acute pancreatitis (broad), Angioedema (broad), Haematopoietic erythropenia (broad), Lack of efficacy/effect (narrow), Haemorrhage laboratory terms (broad), Hyperglycaemia/new onset diabetes mellitus (broad), Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (broad), Anticholinergic syndrome (broad), Dyskinesia (broad), Dystonia (broad), Oropharyngeal conditions (excl neoplasms, infections and allergies) (narrow), Acute central respiratory depression (broad), Pulmonary hypertension (broad), Gastrointestinal nonspecific symptoms and therapeutic procedures (narrow), Haemodynamic oedema, effusions and fluid overload (narrow), Cardiomyopathy (broad), Eosinophilic pneumonia (broad), Neonatal disorders (narrow)
            Write-up: This is a spontaneous report from a contactable health care professional, a nurse, an axillary nurse and from a consumer (mother). A 9-month-old female patient of unknown ethnicity received PREVENAR 13 (lot number G25976, expiration date Feb2015) intramuscular at a single dose on 02Jan2014. Medical history included breast feeding and malaise since 01Jan2014 (birth weight 3200 g at 36 week of gestation), first baby, healthy baby with good weight gain). No history of allergies. Concomitant medication included measles virus vaccine, (batch number J5359, expiration date Jun2015). The baby had previous vaccinations (unspecified) at 6, 10 and 14 weeks with no problem. On 20May2013 6 weeks evaluation was done with no abnormalities detected. Tuberculosis screening done on 02Oct2013 and again 02Jan2014 showed no TB symptoms. Family history included: father smokes, no asthma, allergy or diseases. Mother status was negative in Jan2011. Post natal visit showed Hb at 8.9 g/dl. Currently healthy, no asthma, no allergy or diseases. The baby experienced fever, non-serious, on 02Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, pneumonia and drug ineffective on an unspecified date with outcome of unknown, crepitations, non-serious, on an unspecified date with outcome of not recovered, twitching movements, non-serious, on an unspecified date with outcome of unknown, baby is very thirsty, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, mouth is dry from inside, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, vomits immediately after swallowing, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, baby”s tongue was blue in colour, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, sucking reflection was poor, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, right side of body became swollen, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered, baby”s eyes were closed and she gasps for air, non-serious, on 03Jan2014 with outcome of not recovered. The patient underwent lab tests and procedures which included body temperature: 38.1 centigrade on 02Jan2014; 37.3 centigrade on 02Jan2014 at 08h35; 36.6 centigrade on 02Jan2014 at 09h50; 38.0 centigrade on 03Jan2014 at 08h20; 36.3 centigrade on 03Jan2014. Therapeutic measures were provided. The patient died on 03Jan2014. An autopsy was not performed. According to clinical records, baby visited to clinic on 02Jan2014 at 08h10 for fever (temperature: 38.1 degrees Celsius, Weight: 9.4 kg; Length: 92 cm, Head Circumference: 46 cm). As treatment PANADO syrup 2.5ml single dose (stat) was given orally. No other cause could be established for the fever. Baby showed no anemia, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV was negative, Tuberculosis unlikely. Health education was given on sponge tapping in case of fever, and to return for follow up in 2 days. Advice was given to the mother on when to return immediately. Temperature repeated at 08h35 was at 37.3 degrees Centigrade and again at 09h50 was at 36.6C. Practical nurse decided to give 9 month vaccines due to temp that was only 36.6C. Mother left facility. Immunizations given were as follows: PREVENAR 13 (batch number: G25976 – Expiration date: Feb2015), vials appeared clear, no flocking and no discoloration; measles virus vaccine (batch number: J5359, Expiration date: Jun2015). On 23Dec2013 another child was vaccinated with same batch number with no adverse event. On 03Jan2014 08h20 at facility, temperature was 38.0 degrees Centigrade, respiratory rate at 75 breaths per minute. According to regulatory authority pneumonia was reported. Treatment provided was AMOXIL (250 mg/5ml) (stat) single dose given orally and then prescribed thereafter 5ml 3x daily (TDS) orally for 5 days. Subject should return within 2 days if not better. Temperature repeated after sponge tapping was 36.3 degrees Celsius. Mother left facility with medication. Cold chain investigation showed no defect. Fridge vaccine cold chain was maintained. No break in monitoring or

          • guest
            April 4, 2016 at 7:08 pm #

            Let’s all sing together, now: “Corrrrrelllaation is not caaaaauusaaaation!”

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 7:51 pm #

            While that’s an incredibly cute statement, correlation often is one evidence of causation.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            April 4, 2016 at 7:54 pm #

            …you can’t be serious.

            You have to be a Poe.

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 7:57 pm #

            You can’t be serious in even saying that. Epidemiological evidence is often used as the first call to begin experimentation. If epidemiological evidence notes a correlation, the experimentation then goes to establish greater levels of certainty of the causation. That’s how it works. Sorry. And I have no idea what a Poe is.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

            The h*ll I did! I posted a link to the original research.

            VAERS reports do NOT establish causality. That copy/pasta is meaningless.

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 7:29 pm #

            Yes but what you posted doesn’t support his world view. So he dumps loads of stuff, because more words is better, right?

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 7:55 pm #

            Can you try posting without repeating hell each time? It make me NOT particularly wish to engage with you. VAERS reports very much do help in the establishment of causality except when people have lost their common sense or wish to deceive. The VAERS data sets have already been used to identify problems with vaccines that were removed from the market. You are lying yet again.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 8:26 pm #

            ” It make me NOT particularly wish to engage with you”
            Good!

            From the VAERS website: “VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines.

            More than 10 million vaccines per year are given to children less than 1 year old, usually between 2 and 6 months of age. At this age, infants are at greatest risk for certain medical adverse events, including high fevers, seizures, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Some infants will experience these medical events shortly after a vaccination by coincidence.

            These coincidences make it difficult to know whether a particular adverse event resulted from a medical condition or from a vaccination. Therefore, vaccine providers are encouraged to report all adverse events following vaccination, whether or not they believe the vaccination was the cause. … A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified
            vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that
            the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof
            that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS
            to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether
            the event was caused by the vaccine.”

            You’re the liar. Lying liars lie lots!

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 8:33 pm #

            Clinical data is one form of proof. Kids got vaccines in 100 cases. Dead within a few days. That’s how experiments are run. You give an intervention. If someone drops, there’s a cause. YOu don’t know what you are talking about. The deniers are those who claim there’s no causation, when the simply review of clinical data says there is. VAERS is a government agency. The same government that denied that PCP kills until they were forced to. You should just keep your blinders on. When death is involved, you can see that many of those reports had information provided by VAERS people themselves; maybe for fever they don’t investigate. But death looks pretty well investigated. You are the liar. You lie and don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Melaniexxxx
            April 6, 2016 at 1:04 am #

            Trolllllll

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 8:47 pm #

            His concern with tone borders on the unwell. All that pearl clutching!

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 8:51 pm #

            So am I readiing this right? Over 10 years, 100 million vaccines. During that 10 years, one hundred people die sometime after a vaccine, and someone reports that to VAERS. They could have died in a car accident, of SIDS, or be struck by lightning, or fall off their pushbike. VAERS collects, it doesn’t sort, review or discriminate.

            This is the data R is relying on to drum up the epidemic he is worried about?

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 9:15 pm #

            You got it!

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 10:09 pm #

            Hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell hell HELL

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 10:11 pm #

            Funny….

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 10:45 am #

            C’mon Nick! Get a little creative: H-E-Double Hockey Sticks! Satan’s Home! Lucifer’s Lair! Demon Dome! Sinner’s Sanctuary! Dante’s Domain! Place Where Really Fast Bats Come From!

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 6:55 pm #

            Did Richard just breach copyright by copying and pasting the entire thing?

            So respectful of the rights of others.

          • ChrisKid
            April 4, 2016 at 7:06 pm #

            He doesn’t understand research language. He thinks he can dismiss ‘deaths beyond what was expected’ as “weasle(sic) words” because he doesn’t have the first clue what it means.
            He also has no clue how to calculate the real risk rate for anything and he thinks unconfirmed rumors are better information than verified statistics.
            But that 800 on the SAT should have us all bowing down in awe.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 10:04 pm #

            So this is a set up. Diabetes can be instantaneously induced. They do it with rats all the time, and it can be induced by toxins in humans.

            [citation needed]

            Safe” things are causing a dramatic increase in cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc.

            [citation needed]

          • Richard
            April 4, 2016 at 10:38 pm #

            My Dear Nick,
            You ask questions, I give you evidence. I’ve done it again and again, and then you come up with some other minimal argument instead of saying “yeah you’re right”. This is tantamount to negotiating against myself in a business dealing. You are just trying to find a way to nitpick. Induced diabetes is a very common procedure in rats. YOU can find that out for yourself. That is a diversion. There are an array of toxins that cause (or are linked) to cancer, diabetes, heart disease. Go look it up. Look up, for example, poly aromatic hydrocarbons, hetrocyclic amines.

            What exactly are the confounders that you say killed those babies a few days after getting a vaccine? And did a bunch of crazy anti-vax parents make that all up? You are so bought into a particular bias, that you have no sense of balance.

            Here’s a study from the well respected British Medical Journal. “Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials” 2003. Here’s a quote:

            “As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. [Correlation is not causation] Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.”

            But people who say “correlation is not causation” are sometimes more cynical that we think. You cannot do an randomized controlled experiment that would prove causation in the more traditional way, with vaccines since that is deemed unethical. But I am not personally willing to take a risk with a baby without better proof of confounders. The clinical data is so compelling for demonstrating a potential cause and effect relationship, that caution is the buzz word considering that the death rates were so much higher than the death rates for measles (which are necessarily higher than the death rates for ordinary citizens). But I suggest we use your kids for the vaccine. Would you like to volunteer your kids for the study Nick? Would you like to bet your first born on a vaccination that has a much much much much higher death rate than the death rate from measles by an incredible margin? Would you like to bet that VAERs somehow OVER REPORTS? You only think it’s a coincidence? Really? Did you read the clinical descriptions? Not causal? By the way, the death from vaccines-80% is for children under 3. You want to bet your money on the VAERs data really means absolutely nothing-being “random”? Do you want to bet that there’s no politics and money at play? The CDC doesn’t. They use the data. They used it to get rid of the rotovirus. I don’t know what politics is involved in their statements of “don’t use this data” statements. I don’t know what legal issues they are considering.

            Get some real arguments. At least, thanks for stopping using blogs for proof. Show me your “confounders”. Show me what the intervening cause is. If you want the link to the 100 kids who’ve died just after the vaccine was administered, I put the link in a post.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 11:28 pm #

            You are just trying to find a way to nitpick. Induced diabetes is a very common procedure in rats. YOU can find that out for yourself.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof#Holder_of_the_burden

            What exactly are the confounders that you say killed those babies a few days after getting a vaccine?

            Impossible to say, as VAERS reports do not contain, to my knowledge, a complete detail of everything that happened in the weeks preceding and after the vaccination, as well as thorough autopsy reports. Eve n VAERS itself says so:

            A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

            DISCLAIMER: Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.

            https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

            Would you like to bet your first born on a vaccination that has a much much much much higher death rate than the death rate from measles by an incredible margin?

            If such a thing existed, no. But since it doesn’t that’s rather moot.

            Would you like to bet that VAERs somehow OVER REPORTS?

            For things like death and disability? Happily.

            The CDC doesn’t. They use the data. They used it to get rid of the rotovirus.

            Not according to VAERS:
            https://vaers.hhs.gov/about/index

            In one instance, VAERS detected reports for intussusception over that what would be expected to occur by chance alone after the RotaShield rotavirus vaccine in 1999. Epidemiologic studies confirmed an increased risk, and these data contributed to the product’s removal from the US market.

            The CDC used the data to start looking at rotavirus, but later studies are what actually demonstrated the link. VAERS is good for finding places to investigate, but is not itself proof.

          • Who?
            April 5, 2016 at 12:05 am #

            Part of the issue for R is that he confuses ‘evidence’ and ‘data’. He seems to think that information is knowledge. Which it isn’t.

            He also seems to have tripped over that great logical fallacy ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’, that is, ‘after it, therefore because of it’. Almost never, as it happens. But it does appeal to the human desire to pattern, and helps us feel in control (not, you’ll note, be in control) in a chaotic world.

          • Bombshellrisa
            April 5, 2016 at 2:13 am #

            He is also confusing typing a bunch of words for making sense too.

          • Who?
            April 5, 2016 at 2:16 am #

            To be fair I’m sure he feels the same about the scientists and doctors responding to him.

            Not all arguments are of equal value, though. And his are nonsense.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 9:34 am #

            Good argument, but really just some sort of academic dodge. When an RCT cannot be done, you have to find a way to use observational data, which this is the ONLY and best from of in existence. In fact, you didn’t read the clinicals, because there is enough information in there to simulate pairings, for example. But this evidence is not as weak as you suggest given the thorough narratives in those 100 reports, and given that VAERs checks on these, and given that much of this occurred long before there was any concern of OVER reporting from an aggregation of anti-vaxxer parents among dead kids, and given the amazing confluence of sub-3 year old deaths, the presence of similar symptoms, etc.

            You argument just doesn’t cut it. It’s a dodge. It’s like saying “we don’t know if parachutes really protect against falling to the earth; we haven’t done the appropriate randomized controlled study to prove causation and there have been survivors from airplane falls”. LIkewise, randomized controlled studiess are not allowed with respect to vaccines for ethical reasons, so if vaccines are better or worse, they cannot be challenged by evidence that the medical community will accept because of this simple fact. Therefore, there is NO OTHER method than to figure out how to make a statistically significant asessment out of the VAERS data; which though not perfect, is the ONLY data we can use. They could run a paired test, but that too would require a massive size and cost because the number of deaths noted is only about 9 per year out of some 3.6 million vaccines. That requires an incredibly large test. So given that no one dies from measles in the U.S. and that verified people DO die, until someone comes up with a REAL WORLD argument, not something they got in a book or magazine, or in a vax defender website, or piecing together wikipedia articles: I’m going to opt to sensibly protect my family.

            People who don’t recognize both the limits and the strengths of science are doomed to be trapped by both.

          • ChrisKid
            April 6, 2016 at 12:10 am #

            I wonder if he thinks that the reports on VAERS are only the ones that remain after they’ve been confirmed and analyzed. That’s really the only way that is insistence on using them makes any sense at all. Of course, he might just not understand the difference between raw data and statistics, but then again, he’s such a math whiz….

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 10:39 am #

            Umm, see, they do it in rats, not humans. Humans can get medication-related diabetes, but a number of those medications are prescribed to folks already at risk for diabetes.
            http://www.diapedia.org/other-types-of-diabetes-mellitus/41040851133/drug-induced-diabetes

            http://www.diabetes.co.uk/drug-induced-diabetes.html

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1445173

            People now live longer (on average) than ever before. This, plus advances in medicine that allow those who might have died earlier from diseases, including VPD’s, plus things like strokes and heart attacks, can account for the larger number of people living with chronic health problems. Genetics also plays a role, and that role is still being explored because we now have the technology and know-how.
            But to try and say that vaccines (which DO have the rare bad reaction) are introducing TOXINS!!!! and therefore are not worth bothering with, is deluding yourself.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 10:46 am #

            Let’s take this apart one by one:
            1. Yes. People can get diabetes related diseases. They are probably under reported just as vaccine reactions are under reported.

            2. LIfe expectancies are declining in some demographic groups in the U.S.

            3. The U.S. has the shortest life expectancy of any major developed country, comparable with Columbia.

            4. Iattrogenic deaths (from doctors, drugs and hospitals) are almost as big a killer as cancer or heart disease in teh U.S. NOT counting the vastly ignored deaths “that can’t be proven” category.

            5. Vaccines have been KNOWN to introduce TOXINS. Look it up.

            Your insults and your incomplete arguments show that you have little to offer. When you have a real argument, then present it like an adult. Chyrybdis was a whirlpool of death; you are a whirlpool of silly arguments.

          • Charybdis
            April 5, 2016 at 11:05 am #

            Mind sharing where you got your info? I posted links, you did not.

            Silly arguments? Again- thank you Mr. Pot.

          • Richard
            April 5, 2016 at 11:42 am #

            Happy to share. Here’s a link to the search and you can review all my assumptions in the search and each of the cases.

            Link To This Search Result:

            http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?EVENTS=ON&PAGENO=10&VAX%5B%5D=MEA&VAX%5B%5D=MER&VAX%5B%5D=MM&VAX%5B

            ]=MMR&VAX[]=MMRV&DISABLE=No&DIED=Yes&VAX_YEAR_LOW=2005&VAX_MONTH_LOW=01

          • ChrisKid
            April 5, 2016 at 2:45 pm #

            NVIC. ’nuff said.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 8, 2016 at 6:22 pm #

            http://nvichonestly.com

        • Ratso Nimh
          April 4, 2016 at 4:10 pm #

          I find it peculiar how most people choose to only focus on the worst possible outcomes of vaccine related side effects…..autism, autoimmune disorder, death.

          Did anyone ever stop to think there might be a whole RANGE of everything between no reaction at all, all the way to death on the other end of the spectrum?

          The human body is not subject to an all or nothing proposition on potential side effects. The fact that most people only focus on the most obvious side effects, the ones that actually PRESENT themselves screaming “hey everybody, lookie what happened here after i got stuck!” leaves me wondering where the imagination went. Oh, thats right, people who are ardent supporters of a certain narrative seldom have an open enough mind for imagination to operate.

          Just try this as a simple experiment. Take a hot plate and a marshmallow. Put the marshmallow a foot away and watch what happens…..probably nothing right? Put it a little close and wait…..maybe the surface begins to distort a bit. Closer….now it begins to brown nicely…maybe even little bubbles appear. Closer still…..it starts to turn dark brown…..soon black….bubbling and cracking. Closer……closer….WHOOSH catches on fire…..nasty burned marshmallow.

          You see people…the human body is a marvelous biological machine with innumberable extremely, immeasurably FINE and DELICATE qualities in its various systems….perhaps the MOST delicate being the brain, the central and peripheral nervous systems. The fact is this: we do NOT and cannot possibly know whats going on in there when we put something in the blood stream of a small child, medicine or otherwise….and what happens when we OVERDRIVE the immune system via adjuvants and other chemicals. We cannot possibly know with certainty what a cascade of events we have set into motion by the introduction of all kinds of chemicals, vaccines or otherwise.

          Once upon a time it was established science based medicine to drill peoples heads and scramble their brains to treat mental issues. America has a nice rich, sordid, horrific history of how it has treated the mentally handicapped, insane, and depressed….all under the guise of established medicine of course.

          There are in fact, so MANY examples of the epic failures of science and medicine, the misuse, abuse, maltreatment of patients, that for anyone to TODAY think that just because we are living TODAY we are immune to such catastrophic failures and missteps is the VERY DEFINITION of ARROGANCE and naivete.

          But you know, enjoy that cocktail and its unknown affects on your health for the rest of your life. Enjoy not knowing who your child might have been without the mind altering effects of having a cytokine storm brewing in their brains for years on end.

          • guest
            April 4, 2016 at 7:03 pm #

            Better stop eating food, then dude, because you don’t know what all the tiny little doses of this and that in all our food is doing to your tiny, delicate brain.

      • May 30, 2016 at 5:49 am #

        Because it is intellectual dishonesty.

        You are ignoring the measles deaths in the pre-vax era.

    • Daleth
      April 3, 2016 at 1:43 pm #

      Everything you said in the following several lines is wrong:

      But now, they want to give everyone a vaccine for chicken pox.
      And for what? So they can make money? There certainly isn’t any other benefit. The child won’t have lifetime immunity from a vaccine. They won’t even have immunity until they reach adolescence. And worse, they can still catch chicken pox. And even worse than that, if they do catch chicken pox, they won’t be able to get lifetime immunity, like if they had caught chicken pox without having been vaccinated.

      Here are my corrections:

      1. “They” don’t want to give it to everyone, just to children and non-immune adults.

      2. Benefits other than money: a drastic reduction in cases of chicken pox, which means a drastic reduction in complications from CP. Here are links about two perfectly healthy kids who recently died of CP–both are in the UK, because the UK doesn’t offer CP vax on the NHS:
      – A 7yo girl: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2586103/We-no-idea-chickenpox-deadly-Parents-heartbreak-healthy-girl-7-dies-suddenly-condition.html
      – A 1yo boy: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2987974/Parents-heartbreak-baby-boy-dies-chickenpox-caught-big-brother.html

      3. Yes, the chicken pox shot does give lifelong immunity. It’s a live virus after all–the same stuff you’d get “in nature” or at a totally unnatural chickenpox party.

      4. Yes, the chicken pox shot does give semi-immediate immunity (it takes about two weeks for full immunity to develop, same as most vaccines). It does not in any way require waiting until adolescence.

      5. No, people who get the shot can’t still catch chicken pox–not any more than people who get CP naturally can. Which is to say that just
      like people who get CP naturally, just about everyone who gets the shot is immune for life and only a few freakish exceptions can get it again (just as a few freakish exceptions can catch chicken pox twice naturally).

      6. The vaccine gives the same level of immune protection as catching the virus naturally does. Your last point about supposedly not being able to get lifelong immunity from the natural virus if you were previously vaccinated is completely untrue.

      • SP_88
        April 3, 2016 at 1:57 pm #

        First, when I said everyone, I didn’t exactly mean “everyone”. It was a general statement that you are taking out of context.
        A reduction in cases of chicken pox, perhaps, but that’s a bad thing for people who wish to avoid the vaccine and catch chicken pox naturally.
        The vaccine most certainly does not give lifetime immunity. There is a pretty high rate of chicken pox cases among the vaccinated population, and it would very likely be much higher if more children were exposed to chicken pox. I don’t think that the vaccine gives any immunity, let alone lifetime immunity.
        And my statement about adolescence, you misunderstood what I said. I wasn’t saying that it takes until adolescence for the vaccine to start working. I was saying that the vaccine wouldn’t even last until adolescence, if it worked at all.
        People who have had the vaccine can still catch chicken pox. The statistics are online at the CDC. Also, my neighbor was vaccinated against chicken pox, yet he still caught it when my children had it.
        Nice try, but you’ve corrected nothing.

        • Nick Sanders
          April 3, 2016 at 2:06 pm #

          The vaccine most certainly does not give lifetime immunity. There is a pretty high rate of chicken pox cases among the vaccinated population, and it would very likely be much higher if more children were exposed to chicken pox.

          You keep claiming that, but have yet to actually provide any evidence.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 2:25 pm #

            I don’t do research for other people. If you are too lazy to look on the CDC website or any other website with such data, that’s your problem.
            I’m not the one who is trying to force other people to do something. So I don’t have to prove anything. I don’t care if other people get vaccinated or not. I’m not anti vaccine, I’m against forcing people to get vaccinated. And there is plenty of evidence to support the fact that vaccines are not as effective as they say, and they are not as safe either. I didn’t come to this conclusion out of thin air. I came to this conclusion by looking at the most accurate information that was available to me. There is more information than is reasonable to post here. So I suggest that you clear your head of any bias and look at the data for yourself. Start with the CDC and the VAERS websites.
            I don’t care if you want to get vaccinated. But nobody has the right to force me to do it. And nobody has a reason to force me to.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 3:39 pm #

            “Prior to the universal varicella vaccination program, 95% of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as school aged children)—these cases were usually benign and resulted in long term immunity. This high percentage of individuals having long term immunity has been compromised by mass vaccination of children which provides at best 70 to 90% immunity that is temporary and of unknown duration—shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult population where chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times more risk of hospitalization compared to children. Add to this the adverse effects of both the chickenpox and shingles vaccines as well as the potential for increased risk of shingles for an estimated 30 to 50 years among adults. The Universal Varicella (Chickenpox) Vaccination Program now requires booster vaccines; however, these are less effective than the natural immunity that existed in communities prior to licensure of the varicella vaccine.” – Dr. Goldman

            “The original idea that vaccination could strengthen the herd’s immunity, assumed that there was only one clinical event, and that one natural exposure equated life -long immunity. But this was not the case back when the diseases circulated freely. Vaccinators miss the point that the body defends most efficiently as a result of ongoing re-exposure. They try to mimic this with boosters. But the vaccination plan leaves the elderly(due to vaccine-induced immunity being short-lived and antigens taken out of circulation) and the very young(due to lack of transferrable maternal immunity) more vulnerable to several diseases that were not a threat to them before vaccination. In the case of chicken pox, vaccination renders the elderly more apt to shingles infections, because the herd has now lost the continued and benign re-exposures to children with chicken pox.” – Dr. S. Humphries

            The long-term duration of protection from varicella vaccine is unknown, but there are now persons vaccinated twenty years ago with no evidence of waning immunity, while others have become vulnerable in as few as six years. Assessments of duration of immunity are complicated in an environment where natural disease is still common, which typically leads to an overestimation of effectiveness. – Wikipedia

          • Nick Sanders
            April 3, 2016 at 6:23 pm #

            I’ve never heard of this Dr. Goldman, but I do know Humphries, and she a shyster and an idiot.

          • Who?
            April 3, 2016 at 6:25 pm #

            Goldman is the same: Mercola thinks he’s onto something

            http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/02/chicken-pox-vaccine-creates-shingles-epidemic.aspx

          • Linden
            April 4, 2016 at 4:06 am #

            Shorter SP_88: I won’t do research for other people, but I will copy paste the words of quacks.
            So what are the side effects and risk of adverse incidents of chickenpox and shingles vaccines, compared to actual chickenpox and actual shingles?
            Don’t tell me, you don’t do research.

          • May 30, 2016 at 5:49 am #

            Your claim – your responsibility to back it up.

        • Daleth
          April 3, 2016 at 2:09 pm #

          Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I regret to inform you that they are unsupported by facts. Twenty-plus years ago when the vaccine was introduced, it was observed that getting a single shot at age 1 did not give everyone lifelong immunity–that’s why they introduced the current regimen of one shot at 12-15 months and a second shot around age 4 years. That regimen gives lifelong immunity to the same extent that getting chickenpox does. Your belief that it doesn’t is your business, but it is a belief, not a fact.

          And I’m just going to give this the emphasis it deserves–you said: “I don’t think that the vaccine gives any immunity, let alone lifetime immunity.”

          You don’t believe it gives any immunity. That is HILARIOUS.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 2:46 pm #

            It is absolutely supported by facts. Just because you refuse to accept the facts isn’t my problem.
            Furthermore, I’ve seen first hand that the vaccine is worthless. My kids had chicken pox. I had them already, so I was immune and didn’t end up catching them. My neighbor who had been vaccinated came over and caught them.
            So nice try, but your apparent amusement doesn’t change what is or isn’t.

          • crazy grad mama
            April 3, 2016 at 3:31 pm #

            “Just because you refuse to accept the facts isn’t my problem.” Oh, the sweet, sweet irony….

          • guest
            April 3, 2016 at 8:23 pm #

            Just wait until you all get shingles.

          • Mishimoo
            April 5, 2016 at 8:18 pm #

            I wasn’t vaccinated; caught chickenpox last year and was cleared of permanent brain/nerve damage a few months ago. The vaccines work. My three vaccinated kids didn’t get sick, not even a slight fever, and the toddler kissed/licked my tummy because he was pretending to be a puppy while I was partially conscious on the couch.

        • Dr Kitty
          April 3, 2016 at 2:17 pm #

          Yeah, I live and work in the UK, where the vaccine isn’t on the schedule and chicken pox is endemic.

          I hate to break this to you, but chicken pox infection doesn’t guarantee lifelong immunity either. Case in point, both my sisters had their first bout when they were little (I was 8, they were 6 and 2) and their second bouts when they were teens (both managed to catch it in the run up to major school leaving exams and were very unwell ).

          BTW the economic impact of a parent having to take 7-10 days off work to nurse a child with chicken pox should not be underestimated.

          I’ve seen chicken pox pneumonitis, encephalitis and necrotising fasciitis in chicken pox. I’ve seen a man deafened by chicken pox, which he caught from his kids, affecting his auditory nerve. He may never work again.
          It isn’t always a minor childhood illness.

          My colleague and I were discussing this the other day, both of us are seriously considering arranging private (expensive) vaccination for our younger kids.

          • SP_88
            April 3, 2016 at 2:40 pm #

            I never said that it guaranteed lifetime immunity. But the vaccine certainly isn’t as effective as having chicken pox and becoming immune that way.
            I don’t know what is common practice in the UK, but in America it was common for parents to bring their children to someone’s house who’s child had chicken pox so that everyone would catch it. Purposely infecting children with chicken pox was the best way to immunize them before the vaccine existed. As a result, chicken pox is not a serious problem in America, and hasn’t been since before the vaccine existed. So it makes sense that there are few cases of it. But it wasn’t because of a vaccine. This happened long before the vaccine existed. So I don’t think that forcing people to get vaccinated is right. If people want to get vaccinated, it should be by choice. It seems to me that it is more effective to catch it than to be vaccinated against it. At least here in America. And this information is right from the CDC website.
            There are no guarantees either way, so I would rather take my chances with the actual virus as opposed to something concocted in a lab. Plus it’s free.

          • swbarnes2
            April 4, 2016 at 2:02 pm #

            Nothing you wrote makes any sense. The point of immunization is to keep someone from getting sick. So getting your kids sick on purpose is hardly “immunizing” them. At best, it was reducing the odds of them getting sicker later in life by getting them sick, maybe very, very sick, now. With a vaccine and boosters, you don’t get sick, now or later. How is not being sick inferior to being sick?

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 3:12 pm #

            You keep backpedaling-I didn’t mean “everyone” in the literal sense; I never said it guaranteed lifetime immunity; etc.

            I grew up in the way pre-chickenpox vaccine era. My husband grew up 1000 miles away from me. Neither of us were ever invited to a “chickenpox party”, knew anyone who hosted one or went to one. We both agree our moms would have thought it the height of insanity to let us go to such a party, let alone host their own.

            My kids were young before the chickenpox vaccine came out here in the US. They were never invited to a chickenpox party, I never knew of anyone who hosted one or went to one. Most of us moms were resigned to the inevitable, but we didn’t want to deliberately make our kids sick! There was never a good time to get cpx. One always had plans, a trip, a birthday party, a big sports event to participate in, etc that chickenpox would interfere with . My kids did eventually get it, only a few years before the vax came out. They were sick back to back in the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, both were VERY sick with it.

            The virus in the chickenpox vaccine IS the chickenpox virus. It’s just grown in a lab instead of in your body. Chickenpox incidence was basically 100% before the vax came out.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 4, 2016 at 3:56 pm #

            Chickenpox incidence was basically 100% before the vax came out.

            This is the lunacy of the anti-chicken pox vaccine. This is not like the measles, where you can hide in the herd and hope to avoid it. No, with the chicken pox, the non-vaccinated get it. So why would you chose to the inevitable chicken pox, which is countless ways worse than the vaccine, than get the vaccine and hope you can avoid it?

            Only a monster would impose the chicken pox on their kids when there is a perfectly good vaccine that is pretty effective.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 4:07 pm #

            Actually, measles was 100% before the vaccine too. The uptake isn’t quite as good for chickenpox vaccine as the uptake from measles vax, that is why there is more of it in circulation. It is true that vaccination changes the epidemiololgy of a disease. Very few kids get exposed to chickenpox these days. If they don’t get vaxed, they might luck out and never be exposed, or they might be real unlucky and get exposed as an adult. Shingles itself is mildly contagious; someone non-immune to cpx could get it from someone else who has shingles. Adults are more likely to have serious complications from cpx. Also not cool to get in pregnancy.

            I am in fact agreeing with you.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            April 4, 2016 at 4:11 pm #

            at this point in time, though, I think that the chicken pox is still sufficiently around to make it very likely that you should expect to get it if not vaccinated. The same is not true for measles, unless the morons have their way.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 4:38 pm #

            I do know a few young adults who did not get the vaccine when it first came out (1995). Their parents wanted them to get it “naturally”. That never happened for many. One such person was working in our office at the front desk, and when kids came in with suspected cpx, she had to leave the desk to avoid being exposed. The solution would be to get the vax now.

            I have a friend who didn’t get cpx as a child back in the 60s/70s, one of the outliers. She got it from her kid when he got it in about 1990. It was difficult. She wasn’t *too* sick, but had two kids to take care of. In years past, many deaths d/t cpx were in adults who got it from their kids.

            Just blathering, now!

          • Who?
            April 4, 2016 at 6:41 pm #

            It really confuses me that the same people who won’t have their children vaccinated against illness will cheerfully acknowledge planning to expose them to it.

            What if the child ends up in hospital, or permanently injured, or dead? Hubris. Pure and simple hubris.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 5:07 pm #

            It isn’t hubris. It’s part of life. Long before the vaccine existed, it was well known that catching chicken pox was worse for older people and more mild for younger children. And it was also well known that once you caught it, you most likely wouldn’t catch it again.
            So people were smart enough to get it over with when it would be mild instead of being stupid and waiting until they were older and having to deal with a severe case.
            Do you have a better idea? No? Didn’t think so.

          • Who?
            May 30, 2016 at 6:22 pm #

            There was no choice then. Now there is.

            The risk of death from the illness itself is far greater than the risk of death from the vax. Could you live with yourself if you deliberately infected a child with a vpd, and the child was seriously injured or died as a result? When you have a clear choice between two options, and you chose the objectively less safe one?

            And if you did pursue the deliberate infection route, would you then go to doctors/hospitals for treatment if the illness became serious? If yes, why trust them to treat the illness when you don’t trust them to prevent it?

            Or would you find a way to convince yourself that none of it was your fault?

          • momofone
            May 30, 2016 at 7:15 pm #

            I’m curious about how old you are; I’m in my mid-forties, in the US, and when I was growing up the parents I knew absolutely did not want their kids to get chicken pox (but the vaccine was not yet available). I got it when I was 11, and it was awful. I had febrile seizures, pox down my throat, in my eyes, there was no place on my body un-pocked. My younger brother, despite his best efforts, never caught it. He is also in his forties and still has never had it. So much for people being smart enough to get it over with, as if it were entirely in their control.

          • Erin
            April 3, 2016 at 2:56 pm #

            We’re getting the chickenpox vaccine for my son following a discussion with his Grandfather’s oncologist. My father’s cancer is incurable and he’s likely to have a compromised immune system for the remainder of his life so it’s a gamble I’m not willing to take, especially given the fact that my Father is upfront about the fact that without his Grandson (who he bonded with in a 2 minute NICU visit) he would have refused treatment/possibly booked a one way flight to Switzerland so keeping them apart until he catches chickenpox “naturally” wouldn’t work.

            Having to go private because a Grandfather who spends time every week with his Grandson isn’t classed as “close family” is another story though.

          • Dr Kitty
            April 3, 2016 at 4:07 pm #

            I’m so sorry about your dad.
            But you are absolutely right to do anything that gives them more time together.
            Time is what you don’t have, and every day is precious.

          • linden
            April 3, 2016 at 3:06 pm #

            I’m in the UK and I had it done privately for my son. There have been several outbreaks at his nursery. I basically listened to my mother talk about me and my sister’s bouts of chickenpox and decided we weren’t going through that misery.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 5:00 pm #

            Well I live in America where it has been customary to bring your kids to someone’s house who’s children had chicken pox. For generations people did this. And the antibodies get passed on from generation togeneration. Not the immunity, just some antibodies. As time goes by, the people become more and more resistant to the chicken pox. And the likelihood of lifetime immunity goes up.
            By contrast, if it is a disease that people avoid, and it is randomly passed around, the likelihood of lifetime immunity is much lower and cases will be more severe.
            This seems to be the case in the UK because everyone who’s posts I’ve read who complain about having had severe cases of chicken pox are from the UK. If I’m wrong, correct me. I’m only going by what I’ve read by people from the UK.

        • MaineJen
          April 4, 2016 at 9:46 am #

          “When I said everyone, I didn’t mean everyone.”
          “Anti-vaxxers are not against vaccines.”
          Look dude, if you’re going to just backtrack from all of your statements, don’t even bother.

        • Jesus O'Joseph
          April 4, 2016 at 10:19 am #

          I think it is hilarious that you want to catch Chicken Pox. Sorry we are making it more difficult for you. The fact that you can no longer catch Small Pox must be very frustrating for you.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 1:50 pm #

            I’ve said it before, but I’m absolutely pissed that I caught chicken pox. I only missed the vaccine coming out by a few years, and now I’m at risk of shingles. My mother had shingles and still has lingering shingles neuropathy that makes her wince and yelp, and on bad days even cry, if she bends the wrong way.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 1:57 pm #

            Yeah, shingles suck on ice. It is a singularly unpleasant time. I got a case for Christmas a few years ago.

          • Jesus O'Joseph
            April 4, 2016 at 3:14 pm #

            I wondered about that. I wasn’t sure if the vaccine would put you at risk for shingles.

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 3:17 pm #

            Since the cpx vaccine is a live virus, you are still at risk for shingles, but the risk is MUCH lower than the risk from cpx disease.

          • Jesus O'Joseph
            April 4, 2016 at 3:39 pm #

            Cpx vaccine vs cpx disease, that is succinct. I was struggling to make a distinction. TY.

          • April 4, 2016 at 6:58 pm #

            Isnt tgere a vaccine for shingles now???? Im sorry your mother is suffering, im sending good thoughts to her. Bless her heart .

          • Sonja Henie
            April 4, 2016 at 7:31 pm #

            Yes there’s a shingles vaccine
            You can get it at age 50 if you want to pay for it; 60 for insurance to cover it.

          • Nick Sanders
            April 4, 2016 at 8:35 pm #

            There is, but they won’t give it to you until a certain age, and some people have shingles before then.

          • April 4, 2016 at 10:07 pm #

            Aww okay. I remember tbis sweet elderly man at my church when I was a teen and he had the shingles virus. The poor man was in so much pain. We all took turns helping him and his wife out daily and even had church services at his home after rwgular services because he said iy ways helped him to have fath that he would get better. I hated to see how bad he suffered. I know me and my husband will get it as soon as we are at the right age. I dont want to see him suffer like the poor man.

          • Mishimoo
            April 5, 2016 at 8:10 pm #

            And even though the treatment is more expensive, they still can’t access the vaccine until they hit the right age (over here, anyway). My aunt has had problems with shingles too, hers were linked to stress rather than every day, thankfully.

          • Bombshellrisa
            April 4, 2016 at 7:59 pm #

            I have a friend who is looking forward to getting the vaccine precisely because she has seen how her parents have suffered with shingles.
            I am mad I was too late for the vaccine, now I am looking into Juvaderm or another filler because I have three scars on my face. I hate them. I didn’t get the chicken pic until spring break when I was 13 and I was miserable.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 4:47 pm #

            I already caught them. Now I’m immune for life. And without all the toxic chemicals in the vaccine. Meanwhile people who have been vaccinated will have no idea if it wears off unless they catch it again. And that could be miserable. Especially if you are elderly when it happens.
            I don’t see the point of vaccinating against all these things. Where does it end? I understand why people would want to vaccinate against deadly and dangerous diseases. But we can’t go around making vaccines for every little thing. People have no idea what they are doing. They have no idea what the future ramifications will be.
            Look at what is happening with antibiotics. They are being grossly overused both by people and in farm animals. And they all eventually find their way into the environment where they create bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. Eventually we will be living in a post-antibiotic world. And every little infection will be a potential death sentence.
            And I believe that overuse of vaccines could have the same effect. And it will be our underused and weakened immune systems that become our undoing.

          • Jesus O'Joseph
            May 30, 2016 at 5:04 pm #

            You obviously don’t understand the difference between vaccines and antibiotics.

            We should be endeavouring to find a vaccine for everything, because we should be working to reduce human suffering. You have been benefiting from vaccinations your whole life and have no appreciation for it.

            You mistake your speculation for wisdom.

            If this thread were not 2 month old, dozens would chime in in agreement.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 5:22 pm #

            Really? That’s what your response is? I was making an analogy. The analogy was that we have a problem developing from people carelessly using antibiotics, and if we carelessly use vaccines in a similar fashion it could also cause a problem in the future.
            I am well aware of the difference between vaccines and antibiotics.

          • Jesus O'Joseph
            May 30, 2016 at 5:27 pm #

            Ah, so you should realize what a horrible analogy it is.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 5:47 pm #

            Obviously I’m wasting my time trying to have a discussion with someone who refuses to acknowledge anyone else’s viewpoint.
            So go ahead and get injected with everything you are told you need. Don’t question any of them ever, because doctors and medical professionals never ever make mistakes or give medicine that is harmful to people. And certainly don’t bother to question people who are motivated by making a profit from people like you, because they only have your best interests at heart. These people went to school to become doctors and pharmacists, and they are so much smarter than we are. So we should just assume that they are infallible.
            I wish I lived in the perfect world that you live in.

          • Azuran
            May 30, 2016 at 6:35 pm #

            Your viewpoint is just not worthy of acknowledgement.
            Vaccines are not recommended by that ‘one’ doctor who could make a mistake.
            Vaccines safety and efficacy has been proved multiple times and it is supported by that VAST majority or the scientific AND medical communities.
            One individual doctor is not necessarily smarter than you. One random doctor didn’t just decide that everyone should get vaccinated. The whole scientific and medical community came to that answer together, after years and years of research. But you think you are smarter than practically all of them put together?

            You think that all scientists, researchers, doctors, immunologists, pharmacists, veterinarians, nurses, government official, all the employees or all pharmaceutical company and basically everyone that works in healthcare ALL AROUND THE WORLD were all fooled by a handful of guys who want to poison all the humans and all the animals for money? Or that ALL those people are in into some kind of global conspiracy?
            Just think for a moment how ridiculous that is.

          • SP_88
            May 31, 2016 at 6:49 pm #

            First, that’s a big response for someone who isn’t worth acknowledging.
            There are vaccines that have a proven track record of safety and effectiveness. And I have been vaccinated with some of them. But there are also vaccines that are not safe or effective. And then there are vaccines that may be safe and effective, but are unnecessary for some people, and necessary for others.
            I’ve had chicken pox. And I was exposed to it several times, including when our three children had it. So it would be unnecessary for me to get a cp vaccine.
            I also don’t get a flu shot every year either. It’s hit or miss with the flu shot. They are always trying to figure out what strain of flu is going around that year.
            As far as the unsafe vaccines, the HPV vaccine is one of them. And I’m sure that every doctor I quote, you’ll say he’s a quack, and every article I’ve read is a lie written by some anti-vaxxers who are stupid, and nothing will ever meet your standard for evidence. But what about the researcher who created the HPV vaccine? Would you take her word for it? Surely the person who made the vaccine must be qualified to determine it’s safety and effectiveness. Or perhaps because you don’t think that she is smarter than all the pharmaceutical companies who would stand to lose billions if this got out, her opinion on this isn’t good enough. And what about all the people who’s daughters are dead, seriously crippled or have to spend the rest of their lives in a wheelchair, are you going to tell them that they are too stupid to determine the safety and effectiveness of that vaccine?
            And certainly the researchers who get millions and millions of dollars from the pharmaceutical companies are not under any pressure to come to the conclusion that their product is safe. Because let’s face it, no human being has ever put profits before safety when there are billions of dollars at stake. (Sarc)
            I’m not saying that every vaccine is a death sentence. But there are definitely some that are not as safe as they claim they are. There are a lot of people who worked in high positions in pharmaceutical companies and research facilities, etc, who have come out and said that some of these vaccines are not safe or effective. And not only do these people not have anything to gain by doing this, but most of them have lost a lot of money and ruined their careers over this. And when someone feels strongly enough about something to come out and say it at the expense of losing their high paying job as well as having to deal with the onslaught of criticism and adversity that is sure to follow, I’d say that that gives them some credibility. At the very least it’s not something that should be dismissed without looking into it.
            If the anti-vaxxers were just a bunch of people who have no idea what they are doing, and there was absolutely no evidence to back it up, and there were no credible sources to confirm this, then calling all the anti-vaxxers a bunch of fools would be warranted. But when there are people who worked for the pharmaceutical companies and research facilities and doctors coming out and saying that there is a problem, along with a lot of injured and dead patients who were harmed by vaccines, you can’t just dismiss it and say that because I’m not smarter than all those people, that vaccines must all be completely safe. There is evidence that some vaccines are dangerous and harmful. And there are people who worked on developing these vaccines saying that they are not safe. And there are people who worked for the research facilities that tested these vaccines who are saying that some of these vaccines are not as safe as the companies claim. And you can’t dismiss all this just by ignoring it or saying that I’m too stupid to figure it out.
            There is a lot of information about it on the internet. And you can find it easily by doing some research online. And you can dismiss some of these people, but there are some that you can’t dismiss. Not everyone who says that vaccines are bad are going to be credible. But there are many who are. Only you can choose to believe someone, or not. But the truth is what it is, no matter what you believe.

          • Azuran
            June 1, 2016 at 4:59 pm #

            And the truth is that vaccines are safe and effective.
            And your view point of sure as hell not worthy of me actually bothering to read the ridiculously long post that you just wrote.

          • Jesus O'Joseph
            May 30, 2016 at 6:49 pm #

            You are wasting your time.
            Stop trying to save the world. Your efforts are counterproductive.

          • Who?
            May 30, 2016 at 7:16 pm #

            I had the ‘natural’ mumps twice. Or doesn’t that count?

            And those elderly people you worry about catching bugs won’t catch them if their contacts are appropriately vaccinated, assuming the elderly, for some reason, won’t be vaccinated themselves.

            Surely fewer available antibiotics is a good reason to keep working on vaccines against illness?

        • moto_librarian
          April 4, 2016 at 3:48 pm #

          I caught the chicken pox naturally when I was 13. I wouldn’t wish that experience on my worst enemy. If you really think that it’s just a benign illness, you obviously didn’t have a severe case. I was so glad to be able to vaccinate my own children against it so that they won’t have to suffer needlessly.

          • April 4, 2016 at 6:48 pm #

            They came out with it less than a month after my son had it. I slapped ,y forhead and said of course. He suffered so badly and then bam it comes out.

          • moto_librarian
            April 5, 2016 at 10:07 am #

            The vaccine was licensed in the States about a year after I got the pox. My siblings all had it too. We had been exposed at least two times previously, but no one had gotten them.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 4:23 pm #

            If your parents had been able to get you infected with chicken pox when you were much younger, it most likely would have been a much milder case.

          • moto_librarian
            May 31, 2016 at 11:27 am #

            I was exposed to chicken pox at least twice prior to becoming infected. My mother still doesn’t know how we escaped the huge pox epidemic that infected my entire kindergarten class. So STFU.

          • SP_88
            May 31, 2016 at 5:21 pm #

            We’re you exposed on purpose, or by exposed do you mean in the same building as someone who had it? Usually when people bring their children to someone’s house to get cp, they make sure that they are definitely exposed, including by physical contact. And the vast majority of people who get it while they are young all have a very mild case. 13 is too old to expect a mild case of cp. So of course you had a bad experience. I wonder if you had a very mild case when you were six or so, and you only remembered what your parents told you about it, would you be so adamant about it now.
            At this point it seems that getting the vaccine was right for you. And though you had a severe case, there was no guarantee that your children would, especially if they had caught it while they were young, but it does seem more likely. And I can certainly understand why you would want to save your children from having to go through something that you had a bad experience with. But I don’t think it was the right choice for me.
            And I wasn’t trying to be an a$$h0le when I made my last comment. I was just telling you what my parents told me. I’m sorry that you had it really bad. And I would never wish that on anyone either. I apologize if you mistook my post as being rude. I didn’t mean it that way. I would like to think that if we were having this conversation face to face that we would have a polite and friendly exchange of ideas. We may not agree, but we can be pleasant and respectful to each other.
            I had a mild case and so did all our children. And now getting a vaccine is unnecessary. When my children had cp, I was once again exposed to it. And that has the same effect as a booster shot.
            My biggest argument against all this vaccine nonsense is politicians and bureaucrats mandating what medical treatments we have to get, or holding children’s education hostage until they comply with their mandates. I know better than some politician what is best for me and my family. And our doctor, who is not an anti-vaxxer, agrees with me. If we had refused to get any vaccines whatsoever, then he wouldn’t agree with me, but that’s not the case. We’ve all had the four or five important vaccines. The rest we didn’t get because they were either unnecessary, like with cp and the flu shot, or they aren’t safe, like the HPV vaccine. I didn’t arrive at this conclusion all by myself. I’ve read about it as well as spoken to my doctor about it, and we made our decision based on everything we’ve learned.

          • moto_librarian
            June 1, 2016 at 10:46 am #

            No, I never had a mild case of chicken pox, nor did my brother or sister. We were exposed in preschool (meaning a kid in the class was present before the pox appeared but while in the window to be contagious), and the same thing happened to me in kindergarten. My brother, sister, and I all succumbed to the same exposure when I was 13. My sister, who was 9 at the time, was the sickest of the 3 of us. She had to go to the ER for hydration because her pox made her vomit uncontrollably. I had to be seen after hours by my pediatrician because I had so many pox that there was a secondary infection risk.

            There is really no evidence behind your decision to decline either the HPV vaccine or the flu shot. The HPV vaccine is not dangerous. The flu kills healthy people every single year. So no, I don’t think that you have actually done any research if you decline these vaccines. I also don’t see why kids who aren’t vaccinated should be allowed in public schools.

        • Azuran
          April 5, 2016 at 10:55 am #

          I like how you tell us to go check the CDC. Did you check it yourself?
          They recommend vaccination, stating it is very safe and effective (98% effectiveness). And that vaccinated people who still get CP (because we all know no vaccine is 100% effective) will have less severe cases and are less likely to have complications.
          Their statistics also show a huge decrease in number of cases, number of hospitalization and number of death, with no indication of increase of cases in adults.
          It’s easy really, just write ‘CDC chickenpox’ on google and you can have access to all this info.

          Of course, we don’t know yet exactly how long the immunity lasts, since the vaccine has been around for a little over 20 years. For obvious reasons it takes a lifetime to know if the immunity will last a lifetime. But so far, it has been proven to last over 20 years. If it turns out, in another 20 years, that immunity is dropping, then all you have to do to solve the problem is add another vaccine in your 40s and problem solved.

          • SP_88
            May 30, 2016 at 4:35 pm #

            We already know that naturally catching chicken pox is able to give lifetime immunity. It isn’t 100% effective either, but when you get it, your only getting chicken pox. There is no thimerosal, mercury, or any other toxic chemicals. And that seems like a no-brainer to me.
            I’ve read several articles about how people who have been vaccinated against chicken pox have caught chicken pox anyway. I’ve even seen it happen with my neighbor. The problem is that after being vaccinated, you are no longer able to get lifetime immunity by catching it. So I highly doubt that the vaccine is going to give lifetime immunity. They already recommend a booster shot because it didn’t even give a few years of immunity.
            So now people are supposed to get another shot? Where does it end? And what happens when people become elderly and cannot have a shot for it, yet the vaccine has worn off, leaving them exposed to the danger of chicken pox? It seems to me that the benefits of natural immunity far outweigh the risks of the vaccine as well as the unknown future ramifications of a population that is no longer able to be protected from chicken pox.

          • Azuran
            May 30, 2016 at 6:56 pm #

            In a world without vaccination. About 90% or people got chiken pox by the time they turn 15.
            So even if the vaccine doesn’t get lifetime immunity, the number of people who get cp is still going to be under 90% so it’s still worth it.
            And actually, so far the immunity has been shown to last 10 to 20 years. That not ‘a few years’. We just cannot know yet how long it last because it hadn’t been around for ‘a lifetime’
            But really, old age by itself isn’t a contraindication to receive a vaccine. Only those with immunity or other serious health issues can’t have it. So If immunity fails and it causes problems, then yea, just add a booster. Vaccines are safe, that has been proven so I’m not even going to waste my time with your claim of ‘toxins’.
            So yea, a certain number of older people may have weaning immunity, but where are they going to catch cp when everyone around them is vaccinated?

            So tell me, why do you think that chicken pox is such ‘no big deal’ that it’s OK for everyone to get it. But when someone gets it because of weaned vaccinal immunity, suddenly is a super big deal?

      • April 4, 2016 at 6:50 pm #

        I had a moron arguing with me about my Aunt having died from Chicken Pox. It was ridiculous. They tried to aim it wasnt chicken pox but something else. Im like I know what killed her, you dont. People are idiots if they do not think chicken pox cant kill a person.

        • DelphiniumFalcon
          April 4, 2016 at 7:57 pm #

          Or measles. I have a great-great grandfather (I think that’s the right amount of greats) that died from measles.

          But I’m sure we’re both liars somehow because it doesn’t fit the “childhood diseases are harmless!” narrative.

          • Charybdis
            April 4, 2016 at 8:02 pm #

            But sanitation and hygiene are much better now than they were way back then. So it was just the dirt and general filth of the times back then that caused it. /sarcasm

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            April 4, 2016 at 8:09 pm #

            But they were eating homegrown organic food! That’s supposed to fix everything and make you shit gold!

          • Bombshellrisa
            April 4, 2016 at 8:36 pm #

            But they didn’t have coconut oil and essential oils, that is the missing link

        • Bombshellrisa
          April 4, 2016 at 8:00 pm #

          I know so many people who insist it’s impossible to die from the flu.

          • April 4, 2016 at 10:10 pm #

            Youre kidding???!!! Have they never heard of the Spanish flu. If Im wrong, please correct me, but didnt the Spanish flu kill more people that WWI did??? How ignorant are people. I just want to bang my head against the wall. Tbis is common sense. Did their mommas drop them on their collective heads???

          • Bombshellrisa
            April 4, 2016 at 10:50 pm #

            The only Spanish flu they have heard of was the Downton Abbey episode where someone died. And of course, that was because sanitation or who knows but they don’t believe that it’s a problem today.

          • April 4, 2016 at 11:06 pm #

            Omg do they actually know anytjing besides resting their heads up Jenny McCartys bum???? Its common knowledge that the flu kills people healthy and ill, young and old. They really need to remove those blinders and get over themselves. Everyone of them are putting peoples lives at risk, especially their own children. They are arrogant, selfish and egotistical narcissists. They dont give a dang about their children. They only care about being right.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            April 5, 2016 at 3:30 am #

            Flu can’t be fatal? Flu and pneumonia are the 8th leading cause of death in the US per the CDC. I suppose the argument would either be that every one of those deaths was due to PNA and not flu or that the CDC is part of the vast government conspiracy or whatever it’s supposed to be.

    • guest
      April 3, 2016 at 8:17 pm #

      You just keep on going la la la I can’t hear you, dude. The evidence is all against you, but you are immune to evidence. I can’t understand how, since there’s no vaccine against scientific reasoning.

    • MaineJen
      April 4, 2016 at 9:44 am #

      Vaccines are NOT mandatory. You are perfectly welcome to homeschool your unvaccinated little germ factories. And by all means, take them to Dr. Sears for their checkups. That way the immunocompromised among us will know how to avoid you.

      • Ratso Nimh
        April 4, 2016 at 12:17 pm #

        youre funny. All children are germ factories and should i list all the health problems children give to each other for which there are no vaccines? Mine just had pink eye….is there a vaccine for that one? Nope. How about foot and mouth, vaccine? nope. Need i go on? http://www.cdc.gov/features/handfootmouthdisease/

        As to vaccines being mandatory. It is precisely because of people like you, who prefer to demonize non vaxxers that exemptions are being withdrawn and legislation is being created which will punish people who choose not to vaccinate. Notice no one i