Natural childbirth advocates: it’s all in your head!

The Pot Calling The Kettle Black

I came across this comic on Facebook. It originated with NAMI of Oregon, an organization devoted to helping people with mental illness, and it was designed to satirize the way that people often chide those with mental illness, as if the illness were a choice or as if simply changing outlook would cure it. It asks us to think about the way we would react if physical illness were brushed off the way that mental illness often is.

NAMI comic

The comic was being shared because someone thought that the memes were strikingly similar to those of natural childbirth advocacy.

That got me thinking:

NCB comic

In the world of natural childbirth, women’s needs ARE brushed off as if they are irrelevant or if their pain or illness or complications were there fault and could easily be treated with a better attitude and trust in birth.

The original comic is also being shared on the Facebook page of a prominent homebirth advocate who complains that she has heard these memes used to denigrate those with psychiatric issues. She fails to see that she (and other natural childbirth advocates), use exactly the same memes — the same blame, dismissiveness and insistence that the very real pain and suffering of laboring women could be easily controlled if they simply thought the right thoughts — to belittle women who choose pain relief in labor, experience pregnancy complications, or accept (or even request!) interventions in childbirth.

Ironic, isn’t it?

353 Responses to “Natural childbirth advocates: it’s all in your head!”

  1. December 8, 2013 at 7:20 pm #

    YAY! I can introduce new evidence at my appeal! I AM GOLDEN.

    • Lisa the Raptor
      December 9, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

      This is good news. Also, you might catch them on perjury for lying about not knowing each other. Any luck with a doctor witness or a lawyer?

      • December 10, 2013 at 7:27 am #

        I haven’t checked my email about the lawyer. I’m a little nervous about being turned down.
        I’m gathering a lot of evidence from impartial sources about how exams are supposed to be performed on survivors of sexual violence (including a lot of midwives), and I am calling my therapist this week to talk about possibly having her as a witness. I think I have to go through a round of mediation before the appeal so I do have some time to assemble my case.

  2. Antigonos CNM
    December 8, 2013 at 3:22 am #

    Because of the time difference, I return in the morning to find truly stupid and wrong stuff posted in this interview posted below (Nereida et al). What impresses me, beyond the sheer ignorance (for example, the concept that the pelvis expands, apparently without limit) which is simply the result of a little knowledge being dangerous, is the degree of anger and hatred against men. I really think it is pathological.

    • Mishimoo
      December 8, 2013 at 5:14 pm #

      The misandry annoyed me as well, as did the transphobia. I toyed with the idea of pointing out that the transphobic page was nearly the same nonsense as what some right-wing misogynistic idiots are spouting, or pointing out that transpeople are more likely to be a victim of crime than a perpetrator, but I know that those points will be ignored as being “created by men to further their agenda” or something similar.

      • December 9, 2013 at 12:13 pm #

        Men are the oppressor class. There is no such thing as misandry anymore than reverse racism.

        • Mishimoo
          December 9, 2013 at 5:21 pm #

          They are terribly oppressive with their slut-shaming, bio-essentialism, ignorant criticism + lack of debating skills, Madonna/whore complexes, lack of respect for my bodily autonomy and intelligence, and lack of support/respect for my lifestyle choices. Oh, wait. Nope, those were all women.

          I really can’t get behind the notion that someone is evil based merely on their genitals. Especially not when the vast majority of my friends are male and are amazing people. Certainly not when I have a wonderful husband, and even more now that I have this sweet little boy staring up at me with beautiful blue eyes.

          I wouldn’t tolerate these views about my daughters, why should I accept it about my son?

      • Nashira
        December 9, 2013 at 7:28 pm #

        Trans-excluding radfems can, have, and actively do collaborate with misogynistic right-wing wastes of oxygen so long as it’s in the name of transphobia and violence against trans persons. Especially trans women who were male-assigned-at-birth, even if they’re children still.

        • Mishimoo
          December 9, 2013 at 7:42 pm #

          That’s exactly what I was thinking of. Unfortunately, it will probably get much worse before it gets better.

    • Certified Hamster Midwife
      December 8, 2013 at 10:15 pm #

      Hamsters actually have the opposite problem. If we try to give birth for the first time past a certain age–6 months I think, but I’m a direct-entry hamster midwife so I’m not certain–our pelvis will have fused and the pups can’t get out.

    • December 9, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

      I think it is natural to hate the oppressors. It’s not women who rape and start wars after all.

      • Wren
        December 9, 2013 at 12:41 pm #

        You seem to be ignoring the fact most men do not rape and do not have the power to start wars. You are also conveniently ignoring the fact women can and do rape and that women have led their countries into wars as well.

        • December 9, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

          Rape=forced penetration by a penis. Women do not have penises and men do deal with the risk of forced pregnancy and all the comes along with it. Men can be sodomized but that is not the same thing as rape. That most men do not start wars does not matter because no matter what they do they belong to a class that uses their dicks to sexually terrorize women since forever. If any women have led countries into war, if male HIStorians were not just blaming women for their own shortcoming as men are wont to do it is still a small minority. The men commit the vast majority of violence and despite the male supremacist twist it is well documented.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

            Rape is more than that, or do you want to tell a woman who was forcibly penetrated by a knife or bottle that she wasn’t raped? Well, actually, you probably would but most of us would not. Forced sodomy sure as hell seems like rape to the victim, male or female.
            If all men are to blame for what some men do why shouldn’t all women bear the blame for mothers who abuse or terrorise their children?
            You seriously appear to have a disconnect from reality and the idea that my 8 year old little boy is seen as soon to be an enemy would be hugely offensive to me were it not so absurd.

          • December 9, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

            Its rape if its forced penetration against women. The cultural enforcement of PIV intercourse makes it the most common threat. Statistics show your boy will likely be a rapist. In fact little boys do rape little girls, its usually not reported bc they are minors.

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

            You’re insane.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

            Trixie, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
            I’m fairly confident my 8 year old boy has not and does not plan to rape any little girls.

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

            Yeah, in the horrible, sad cases where one prepubescent child sexually assaults another, it’s almost always the child acting out due to being a victim themselves. And has basically nothing to do with the reasons that adults rape.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:15 pm #

            Well I agree that adult men have been more socialized by violent porn. As a radfem we name the agent which is male violence whether by children or adults.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:17 pm #

            There is nobody outside men forcing men to be violent. Their patriarchal system is created and enforced by them alone. No invisible force is secretly pulling the strings behind the scenes. Since it comes from men and not from anyone else, this is the definition of inherent. It’s internal to them. Women often kill in self defense but are punished by men’s laws anyways.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 10:52 am #

            This has been bugging me. Men somehow create this system, on their own, in a vacuum while women contribute not at all? Men begin as boys (excluding the extremely small number who begin as girls). In general, both boys and girls are primarily cared for and taught by women in their first 10 years or so. If boys are all growing up to be so terrible, it seems impossible to me to argue that men alone are at fault. If women are contributing, which seems impossible to avoid, then the blame for the current system should include both men and women and both men and women should work together to change it.
            “Their patriarchal system in created and enforced by them alone” is just plain wrong. Women contribute to the current system, whatever you choose to call it. Giving all men the power to create and maintain this system and not assigning equal blame for the role women play is devaluing women more than the most misogynistic men out there.

          • anion
            December 12, 2013 at 7:55 am #

            I completely agree.

          • Lilly de Lure
            December 9, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

            It’s rape if it’s forced penetration against ANYONE, by anyone, with anything (as Wren says bottles, knives etc are often used and can be wielded by women as well as men) – sorry if this is somehow anti-feminist in your eyes but I for one am not about to get mealy-mouthed about a rape because the orientation of the victim’s genitals is different from mine.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

            Well I am not saying male violence on other males isnt a problem it definitely is. Most transsexual males are killed when they have sex with men and the other dude discovers ‘she’ is a dude. A lot of them in the sex slavery trade imo because they fetishize female oppression.

          • Lilly de Lure
            December 9, 2013 at 2:17 pm #

            Interesting opinion you’ve got there – any evidence to back it up (specifically any evidence that transsexuals are overrepresented in the sex trade “because they fetishize female oppression” rather than other factors like say – discrimination against transsexuals in other walks of life)?

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

            I think there is discrimination because it is conflated with homosexuality but its men who created the institution of heterosexuality so its not women who are oppressing them, as well as sex trafficking. It is not women but patriarchy who oppress transgendered males and I do not think anyone should be enslaved. There is however a vocal pro sex trade lobby which includes a lot of trans males I have noticed. They aren’t overepresented-women are the majority of trafficked people and that is well documented.

          • Lilly de Lure
            December 9, 2013 at 2:23 pm #

            That would be a no then.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:25 pm #

            My point is it is men killing trans fellas not radfems who criticize the social construct of gender. Men are being transphobic and it feels like the term is being cheapened by this.

          • Nashira
            December 9, 2013 at 7:26 pm #

            Your rhetoric and that of your much vaunted forebears, like Daly et al (pretty much all of whom are FREAKING WHITE WOMEN, GENIUS), contributes directly to an environment in which trans women and men are harmed and killed on a daily basis. You. are. responsible. Your fellow radfems actively work to remove and prevent addition of gender identity to anti-discrimination laws – you are responsible for the harm that causes.

            Not that you’ll see it, because trans women may have had penises and everyone knows that penis = evil soul-destroying thing of horror. Right? Seriously, I freaking can’t even with people like you. I’d tell you to get out of my feminism except whoops, you never were feminist to begin with.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

            Men created the institution of heterosexuality? Huh. Never heard that claim. It seems to generally been an inborn thing. I guess if women like you were in charge I’d no longer enjoy a heterosexual sexual relationship?

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 3:05 pm #

            I’m having trouble with this one, too. She doesn’t like heterosexuality, transexuality, or male homosexuality, or male genitalia in any context….

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

            If patriarchy didn’t suit men in some basic, inherent way, they would rebel against this enforcement, but they don’t, ever. So I guess men and their institutions do not consider these men that killed by male violence a significant loss.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

            How can you fail to realise most men have no more control than most women? The system is not created by all men getting together and agreeing to treat women terribly, but by those in power doing all they can to retain it generally, regardless of whether it harms men or women.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 2:58 am #

            Yes, there are no men who are for equality for women, and there never have been.

            My eyes are rolling so hard I think I sprained something.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

            But men have the power to punish other men for hurting each other and they do more than when women are victims of violence. I am not sure I would want to go through the male legal system and get victim blamed, too hard on me mentally. If I am ever raped I will kill the man.

          • Mishimoo
            December 9, 2013 at 5:30 pm #

            What about the male abuse survivors that are victim-blamed? Do they not exist or do you somehow think that they deserve it?
            Edited to add: What, so women can’t rape now?

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

            I’m pretty sure she couldn’t care less about them. I think the phrase used was “Oh boo woo cry me a river”.

            Edited to add: Nope. It’s only rape if it happens to women.

          • Mishimoo
            December 9, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

            Oh, of course. If one really thinks about that concept, it can be construed as misogynistic.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:17 am #

            No it can’t. Misogyny is hatred of females. Its is misogynist to say that the experiences of the oppressor (men) and the oppressed (women) are the exact same thing.

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 2:52 am #

            I reject the claim that I am oppressed in any way because of my gender. I live a life of incredible privilege, safety, and equality unparalleled at pretty much any other point in human history. For me to whine about inequality would be an insult to those (including billions of women elsewhere in the world) who actually have something to complain about.

          • Mishimoo
            December 12, 2013 at 6:30 am #

            I did say something about thinking.
            Here, I’ll unpack it all for you and see if you can assemble it into a basic understanding instead of proving the guys at RoK correct when they insist that women are incapable of logic.
            1 – A common misogynistic slur is to refer to a male as female, implying that he is lesser.
            2 – If rape, despite the definitions that specify ‘person’ rather than ‘female’, is something that only happens to women; male rape survivors must then be reclassified as women according to your premise. Can you see my point?

            Finally: Considering most male rape survivors are often thought of as lesser/weaker than other men due to the fact that rape is committed as an act of subjugation and since they are also often thought of as potential predators, I think it is rather unfair to trivialise their experiences. I also think that doing so is an insult to all rape survivors regardless of where they fall on the gender spectrum.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:15 am #

            Other kinds of activists are not told what they should focus their energy on. You don’t complain to an environmentalist that they really need to focus on the legal rights of homosexuals, do you? Women are socialized into gender roles that teach them they must be everything to everyone, to be male pleasing and I reject this.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 12, 2013 at 12:45 am #

            I would never tell a hardworking environmentalist that she should instead be working on legal rights of homosexuals, child poverty or any other problem. It’s OK to focus your energy on one problem, and might be more productive in the long run. But it’s not OK to deny that other problems exist, or to actually tell the people facing these other problems that they don’t matter.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 2:54 am #

            I’ve never actually met someone who truly couldn’t care less about half the population of the world, or went so far as to view them as the enemy. It’s not where you are choosing to focus your activism but your insane hatred of all people male that I reject strongly.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 9, 2013 at 6:17 pm #

            You may lack perspective on the experiences of men of color, or men with disabilities, or men who otherwise fail to fit into the mold of idealized masculinity. I’m not saying that you have to work on these problems, it’s OK to identify yourself first and foremost as a feminist and address female oppression. However, you’ll be in a much better place to address sexism if you put it in context.

            Not all men have privilege. Not all men are able to physically or legally defend themselves. And even the men who are “winners,” high-status able-bodied heterosexual white men, even they feel the need to constantly model proper masculinity or risk losing status or even becoming a victim of violence.

            Men don’t talk about these things, boys don’t cry. But it does happen.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:11 am #

            I am aware of people being oppressed due to their sexual orientation and disability status. However all oppression stems from the original oppression which oppression of women.

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 2:47 am #


          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 2:55 am #

            Citation needed.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:12 am #

            “Men tell us that they too are “oppressed. ” They tell us that they are often in their individual lives victimized by women— by mothers, wives, and “girlfriends. ” They tell us that women provoke acts of violence through our carnality, or malice, or avarice, or vanity, or stupidity. They tell us that their violence originates in us and that we are responsible for it. They tell us that their lives are full of pain, and that we are its source. They tell us that as mothers we injure them irreparably, as wives we castrate them, as lovers we steal from them semen, youth, and manhood—and never, never, as mothers, wives, or lovers do we ever give them enough.”- Dworkin

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 6:52 am #

            And sometimes they are right. Sometimes boys and men are harmed by women.

          • Mishimoo
            December 12, 2013 at 7:55 am #

            Like my father, first by his mother and then by mine.
            Also my brother, who has finally escaped our mother. She tried to ensure that none of us would be independent adults.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:13 am #

            All men have male privilege. Of course they can be oppressed by other men and the system men created I would never dispute that.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:12 pm #

            Sodomy is forced penetration of men and against women its rape. The world would like to forget that women have the added risk of forced pregnancy especially with pro forced birth laws in many states. Men terrorize women and exploit our biological vulnerabilities. They always have. That is why access to proper reproductive care for all women is so important so we can at least minimize the harm.

          • anion
            December 12, 2013 at 7:53 am #

            Which states have “pro forced birth laws?”

            I know abortions can be more difficult to obtain in some states, but I am genuinely not aware of any states which, as a matter of general law, strap pregnant rape victims down for nine months and force them to give birth.

            Please give citation. Please make that citation a factual one, and not the agitprop of an essayist who just “feels like” that’s the truth.

          • December 9, 2013 at 7:45 pm #

            Please cite the statistic that says my son is likely to be a rapist.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:08 am #

            Fact check me moron.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:10 am #

            With pleasure! Your source? Can’t check your facts if you don’t cite them.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 2:59 am #

            You make the claim, you bring the evidence. That’s how it works.

          • anion
            December 12, 2013 at 7:41 am #

            I’m sorry, but I think you really need serious help (and have thought so since your first comment here, pasting huge chunks of unattributed conversations designed to impress everyone). Your thought processes, as expressed through writing, are unorganized and contradictory; your thought processes as expressed simply through what you say reveal a truly disturbing and offensive level of hatred, paranoia, and tinfoil-hat-level delusion. Your statements about feminism/radical feminism are contradictory and nonsensical in the main.

            You and facts do not appear to be on speaking terms.

            You could just be a troll, but I suspect you really believe the self-aggrandizing silliness you’re expressing here.

            Either way, further engagement with you is pointless.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:14 pm #

            Even if your son does not rape a woman he still benefits from being a member of the oppressor class. He benefits from the women who live in fear of rape and we all do at some level even if not consciously. He will never have to deal with a what women go through. He benefits from how women submit and censor themselves to try to reduce how men will punish them.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

            I hope to raise both my son and my daughter to believe all people deserve respect and autonomy regardless of gender and all are of equal value. Rather than demonising a half of the species, I want them to learn to work together. So far it is going quite well.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:08 am #

            Gender is stereotypes about women. I think you mean sex.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:49 am #

            No, “Gender” means the state of being male or female (typically used with reference
            to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones), and here’s my source

            The way I fight sexual violence is raising a son *not* to rape. Men are not biologically determined to rape – your arguments are all about the “PATRIARCHY” and “SOCIETY”, ergo raising children (male and female) to be empathetic people who are taught from crib up that they have NO right to ANYONE’s body but their own.

            The bottom line is that this “radfem” is inherently anti-feminist. If your ideology says that I am *so* *inherently* *weak* that I can NEVER truly give consent, not for the most intimate moments of my life, not because it’s something I *want*, because I’m some patriarchy-programmed automaton..How incredibly demeaning. Why should such “weak” and easily molded creatures have *any* say in the world? No, our pretty little heads need watching over. And besides, the only people who want *those* kind of things are just *bad* women.

            Like women who like watching pornography
            Like women who really enjoy penetrative sex.
            Like women who want to have *more* sex
            Like women who want to have adequate pain relief
            Like women who want C-sections
            Like women who choose to bottle-feed.

            You are an amazing caricature of everything that made me despise the radfem RiotGrrl movements, and thanks for making me realize how exactly the NCBully movement operates.

          • Mishimoo
            December 12, 2013 at 7:40 am #

            Thank you for your eloquence! You said exactly what I wanted to in a much better manner.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 3:02 am #

            Nope, I mean gender. I reject your radfem arguments about the inherent weakness of women and evilness of men. I also reject your arguments for biological determinism.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 3:05 am #

            My son is 8. He attends a primary school run by and almost exclusively staffed by women. Like most schools, it is largely arranged such that traditionally female activities are appreciated over male ones. I am a stay at home mother and he spends far more time with me than with his working father. With the exception of football, the primary coach/teacher at all of his extracurricular activities is female. If anything, his sister benefits from her gender at the moment, not him.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

            Men get more help and get their sexual assault taken more seriously than women and it is not epidemic as it is against women so I am not going to focus my feminism on it. Radical feminism is to liberate women from men. Men have the means to help each other out.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

            Men get more help and get their sexual assault taken more seriously?!?! Which universe do you live in? Men are often far more ashamed to report it than women and reports of assault by women will lead to men being told they got lucky and should have enjoyed it far more often than any support.

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:45 pm #

            Oh boo woo cry me a river.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 2:50 pm #

            So clear now.

          • Lilly de Lure
            December 9, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

            Agreed – can’t believe I actually spent neurons trying to engage someone who would react like that to the plight of a rape victim simply because of their sex. Really does say all that needs saying.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:07 am #

            Men have cerebral asymmetry and smaller corpus callosum. Men have rape drives, women do not.

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 7:38 am #

            Which part of the brain in men, specifically, is the “rape drive”? Citation needed.

          • December 10, 2013 at 7:31 am #

            go away, rape apologist scum

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:05 am #

            I am not scum. Only men are scum. Unfollowing your blog you creep. You have no right to insult me for my political views.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 7:03 am #

            “Only men are scum”? Wow.
            Your political views are no better than those of the MRAs and they do not make you immune to insult. I would argue there is more right to insult an individual for their own expressed views than an entire gender (and yes, I am using that word on purpose and do not mean sex) for simply not being born or choosing to remain in a female body.

          • December 13, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

            Like I give a shit if you unfollow my blog. You have no right to tell me that only men are scum after a woman abused me. I know its fun to have a myth of a ‘safe space’, I sure did enjoy it while I still bought into it, but its a load of bullshit. You can say that a man is statistically more likely to rape you, but that’s it.

          • December 9, 2013 at 7:43 pm #

            You seriously think men cannot be raped?

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:18 am #

            I believe the definition of rape needs to address women’s experiences as the oppressed class under patriarchy.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 7:06 am #

            I believe the definition of rape needs to address all victims’ experiences as the recipients of sexual violence.

        • December 9, 2013 at 2:29 pm #

          Men monopolise all political power in patriarchy.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 3:11 am #

            A very small number of men and a smaller number of women monopolise political power in most countries.

      • Trixie
        December 9, 2013 at 2:35 pm #

        Just mulling over a few famous women throughout history who have led countries and empires…pretty much all of them have either started wars, commanded military action, and/or committed horrific acts of violence, often against their own relatives, if not by their own hand, then by commanding it. Cleopatra, for example, killed her 10 year old brother-husband so she could be the sole heir to the throne.

        • December 9, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

          It is sad that women have to participate in mens system but despite a few token women it is by men for men. Those women are famous because they are what we call handmaidens of the patriarchy.

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 2:50 pm #

            she didn’t have to participate…she was already one of the richest and best educated people in the world, even in exile. She could have gone somewhere and lived out her days on a commune. She didn’t have to get Caesar to kill her brother. She wanted to because SHE WANTED ALL THE POWER. She was in no way a victim.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:19 am #

            I hope you realize men have written history and projected flaws of themselves onto women’s reality.

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 2:41 am #

            What, specifically, is incorrect? Or when you don’t know about something, instead of trying to learn, do you just blame it on men?

        • December 9, 2013 at 2:42 pm #

          They are certainly not countless. It is men who have led countless wars.

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

            Catherine the Great…killing her husband, defeating the Ottomans…

      • December 10, 2013 at 7:30 am #

        Women rape. Believe me.

      • December 12, 2013 at 3:05 am #

        Hating about 50% of humanity does nothing to improve the world. For anyone.

    • December 9, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

      If you consider women who resist male violence pathological I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my vagina.

      • Trixie
        December 9, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

        It seems like you’re maybe just really overexcited about your Intro to Women’s Studies textbook right now. You really, really are not making sense within the context of objective reality.

        • December 9, 2013 at 2:34 pm #

          LOL I have been a radical feminist for yrs, Women’s Studies has not existed during my lifetime and is now called Gender Studies and I would never take it. I have read the work of read feminists like Sonia Johnson, Andrea Dworkin, Mary Daly, Janice Raymond and Sheila Jeffreys and more as well as some excellent bloggers. To say I am new to this and don’t know what I am talking about is insulting. I am also familiar with mainstream sex positive feminism but I rejected it.

          • Trixie
            December 9, 2013 at 2:45 pm #

            That’s funny, if Women’s Studies no longer exists, how come there are currently at least 15 institutions in the US where you can get a Ph.D in it? Or maybe you don’t actually know what you’re talking about?

          • December 9, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

            They usually call it gender studies now and the focus content is just pro sex industry post modernist bullshit. Its a joke. There was a time when womens studies did not suck as bad but its just 3rd wave shit now. Try to find one that calls itself ‘womens studies’ not ‘women and gender studies’ or ‘gender studies’ and you will see what I mean.

          • December 9, 2013 at 7:42 pm #

            I minored in Gender Studies. You are incorrect.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:22 am #

            No I’m not. Now in these ‘gender studies’ classes pornographers give presentations. The very title is an insult to feminist thought. In feminism gender is stereotypes about women as a sex. Its not about women anymore its about catering to very male centric view in the name of equality.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:34 am #

            Yes, you are still wrong. The only pornography presentations were young women who sound a lot like you showing videos they made. These usually include things like scenes of movie violence against women with sex noises dubbed over, or soft-core porn with violent scenes to dramatically contrast. Most of the rhetoric is as extremely anti-porn as your arguments here. We read Dworkin too. The idea that a woman could *want* to be more sexual, or could enjoy being sexual, was pretty scarce. Well, no, I mean, there were so many sex-toy parties (so many penetrative instruments of the patriarchy, but I wonder if you’re next trick is saying that penetrative masturbation is also rape).

            It’s the same “you have to be just like me and like what I like and outlaw what I don’t like” as the NCB movement, and your outrageous claims are defended by a wall of “It is SO true! You don’t even KNOW!” and no facts to hold it up.

          • December 12, 2013 at 12:23 am #

            Equality btw is a liberal concept and liberalism is a male ideology.

          • theNormalDistribution
            December 12, 2013 at 12:44 am #

            I’m sorry, what?

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 2:40 am #

            So the idea that men and women are equal is now also just a patriarchal lie? You’re going to have to go through that one step by step. Unless rational thought is also a tool of the patriarchy.

          • Wren
            December 12, 2013 at 3:09 am #

            Isn’t rational thought being a tool of the patriarchy a key part of rejecting science for other (female) ways of knowing?

          • Trixie
            December 12, 2013 at 3:11 am #

            I believe we’ve just come full circle and hit the nail precisely on the head.

            I apologize for that metaphor, which is clearly a product of patriarchal language since it involves hitting, which is violence, and nails, which are phallic.

        • December 9, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

          Also a fan of Valerie Solanas. In women’s studies classes they say her book Scum Manifesto is satire but it is the truth. Universities are patriarchal institutions, you could not pay me to have them mansplain feminism to me while glossing over so many authors they don’t agree with.

      • December 10, 2013 at 7:29 am #

        I thought like that until a woman abused me. It was my basis for choosing a midwife, and boy did that backfire. You aren’t safe from violence anywhere.

  3. December 8, 2013 at 12:37 am #

    I also have a friend who is a feminist on facebook who never takes any drugs ever only herbs and says she would not even take them if she had cancer. Also one that refuses to wear sunscreen but I am trying to convince her of zinc based ones bc they are “natural”. She has suffered cancer yet still does not see the benefit of sunblock. Luckily I found one friend who is both a skeptic and supporter of science based medicine actually 3 of them which really keeps me sane and they are still just as intelligent and solid in their analysis as the rest of them. Seems like radical feminists are disproportionately supporters of this quackery… because patriarchy! It is such a gross oversimplification I want to punch a copy of Dworkin’s work! Also a radical feminist author named Sheila Jefferys would I don’t mind usually has a book called ‘Beauty and Misogyny which I love for its analysis of beauty practices in patriarchy but she relies on the baloney that personal care products kill u and give u cancer. She is smart enough to not rely on that. I have seen feminists of all stripes using the pseudo science of supposed toxic personal care products to make their points. I think it is a good example of personal ideology corrupting rationality.

  4. yentavegan
    December 7, 2013 at 10:18 pm #

    OT … In the recent past a women from Rockland County NY, who took her own life has been elevated to martyrdom. What irks me is that the editorials written about her describe her battle with depression as due from her loss of custody of her 3 children. Her ex husband fought for and won custody half a decade ago. Isn’t it possible that the divorce and loss of custody was because she suffered from depression and not the other way around?

    • December 7, 2013 at 10:48 pm #

      Perhaps. Its a matter of it the court system or individual people are more in tune with your sense of justice. Its hard to say really.

    • Certified Hamster Midwife
      December 8, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

      Are you referring to the formerly Hasidic woman? It isn’t that simple. Situations can cause symptoms to become worse, and having access to your children taken away because you’re no longer practicing the religion they’re being raised in is more cult-like behavior than a rational reaction to a mother being emotionally unstable.

      • yentavegan
        December 9, 2013 at 2:45 pm #

        The mother did not have her custody terminated because she no longer practiced Hasidic Judaism. That piece of propaganda has been used to give people a bad opinion of Hasidic Jews.
        This mother had her custody terminated because she lived in places without a refrigerator, running water and electricity. She lost her custody because she had no food to feed her kids on their visitation days. This mother tried to feed her kids McDonald’s even though her children were being raised Orthodox. This mother had drug addiction issues and she was not balanced enough to be trusted to have unsupervised visitation. This mother suffered from depression and that is why she took her own life. She lost visitation /custody of her children because she did not avail her self of social services help.

        • Certified Hamster Midwife
          December 9, 2013 at 6:32 pm #

          So getting married and starting to bear children right out of high school can leave someone without the resources to get a nice job once they leave their spouse. Whoda thunk?

          • yentavegan
            December 10, 2013 at 10:10 am #

            Whoa! I am not shrugging off any responsibility for how an entire community was unable to reach and help out this women! Chas V’ Chalillah! I am angry that no one took her mental health issues seriously enough to prevent her from hurting herself.I am angry that the local newspapers blame her loss of custody as the catalyst for her depression rather than calling out her doctors her family for not recognising her attraction to risky anti-social behaviour was a SYMPTOM not the cause of her sickness.

        • Nashira
          December 9, 2013 at 7:31 pm #

          When I was suicidal and actively self-harming, due to severe depression, I was too ill to sick help. I am not unusual in that respect. If my husband had not been able to advocate for me, I would never have gotten help, and I’d still be hurting myself every day, at the very least.

          Saying that this woman is at fault for her suicide because she “did not avail herself of social services” is displaying a gross ignorance of what severe depression and drug addiction is like.

          Also, for real, Hasidic Jews are pretty known to not prepare their women for a life outside of a marriage… and to not have a whole lot of choices in that marriage. Pretty similar to many fundamentalist Christian sects, tbh.

          • yentavegan
            December 10, 2013 at 10:15 am #

            I was clumsy in my wording. I in no way blame this mother for her illness. I do feel that an entire medical community turned their backs on her. Her home town does have a state of the art health care facility within the village’s fence. I do blame her close family for not being protective of her and casting her off b/c she was difficult to get along with. She rejected being orthodox and her community stopped taking care of her. She deserved better from the people who should have loved her more.

  5. December 7, 2013 at 8:49 pm #

    “Birth has been turned into a medical emergency because women’s health and pregnancy have been turned into yet another form of oppression/domination. Most “emergencies” in labour/birth are iatrogenic, i.e. derived from medical interventions that in turn call for more and more invasive medical interventions.

    I have studied this thoroughly due to having had three kids and I am absolutely convinced that birth has become increasingly dangerous and harmful exclusively due to medical/commercial reasons. Birth specialists are utterly damaging to women. Birth without (mostly male) medical intervention would still have SOME danger, of course, but not more than most human activities. Also, if you do some research you will learn that specialists hardly ever “know what they are doing”. Every protocol for labour and birth shows how blatantly ignorant specialists are of natural human biological processes.Or gravity. Stuff like that.

    For example, there is a set period of one cm dilation per hour. Normal births do not follow this male medical set pattern.
    Women are routinely shaved, enemas performed, episiotomies given by default due to ignorance of what the consequences of not doing this may be. C-sections are performed for millions of things that do not neccessarily require them (like breech, post 40 weeks, twins, cords around necks, among others).

    But that ignorance is not an innocent one. Conditions have been invented altogether. CPD (cephallo pelvic disproportion) is supposed to be an ever increasing condition by which women produce babies that are way too big to go through their pelvis. FTP (failure to progress) is also an invented situation which means that women “fail” to accomodate their labours to the alleged time frames and rhythms in which labour is being required to occur. sometimes this is applied for women who are “progressing” ok, until they transfer to hospital and upon being prodded and examined by about a dozen strangers, her labour “mysteriously” stalls.

    Also, it is worth stating the obvious fact that more intervention means more money to the people selling interventions.

    And yes, that’s me with one of my daughters in the pic. She was born via an unnecesessarean, at the time the (s)care providers referred to a dangerous condition called Gestational Diabetes, COMPLETELY harmless condition by which a woman develops diabetes only through the pregnancy and which has ZERO consequences for her or the baby. Later, in the charts, OB listed CPD as the cause for the section, another non existent condition.” -One of my FB friends. *facepalm*

    • December 7, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

      I bought into that ‘failure to progress’=’failure to wait’ shit before it happened to me, and you know what? No one told me that waiting makes you fucking exhausted. Pretty sure I would have been dead (or my baby ) if I was giving birth 100 years ago.

      gestational diabetes has no consequences? is this new in NCB lore or is it established?

    • JC
      December 7, 2013 at 9:55 pm #

      “Women are routinely shaved, enemas performed, episiotomies given by default due to ignorance of what the consequences of not doing this may be. ”

      It’s funny that women are still repeating this misinformation. I’ve had 2 children in the last 5 years and have countless friends who have given birth. These things are NOT the norm anymore. This sounds exactly like my mom’s experience in the mid-70s. I have not heard a single story of a woman today being treated this way.

      I’m not saying episiotomies never happen, but enemas and routine shaving? This is just circulated to scare pregnant women. I love that doctors are supposedly the ones doing the all the fear mongering, but NCBers can post this stuff constantly. And what are they supposedly doing? Being all bright and shiny? No, this is fear mongering. They can talk all about the “unnecessary” interventions in the hospital, but if anyone says anything about possible complications/dangers of homebirth, then they’re just trying to scare women/they don’t believe women are strong enough to give birth naturally/they are just blind sheeple following their doctor’s advice.

      That’s fine. Then I am a blind sheep who had 2 wonderful hospital births (with epidurals!) and who has 2 beautiful, healthy children. I am pregnant with number 3, and, once again, I could care less about the birth. I’m in it for the healthy, beautiful babies.

    • yentavegan
      December 7, 2013 at 10:01 pm #

      I used to believe the same ideas you so eloquently expressed. But then I read about healthy women with healthy pregnancies who opted for midwives in free standing birth centers who lost their babies during labor and delivery. It was the realization that back in the good old days before modern medicine childbirth was indeed a perilous life taking occurrence. 100 years ago, every family knew someone who lost a mother or newborn. Some of those losses could have been prevented by c/s.

    • Young CC Prof
      December 7, 2013 at 10:20 pm #

      Oh. My. God.

      GD is harmless? Really? And was this nut continuing to eat bread and cookies the whole pregnancy? (Friend of a friend had a baby go septic and nearly die because she decided to make up her GD diet as she went along.)

      And yet every nut job like her screaming about her unnecessarian is another healthy woman with a living child. Even if she’s an idiot, she’s still a victory.

      • AmyP
        December 7, 2013 at 10:45 pm #

        “(Friend of a friend had a baby go septic and nearly die because she decided to make up her GD diet as she went along.)”

        I kind of did that with my last pregnancy, but since I was doing 4 finger sticks a day, I just did whatever seemed to be working.

        • Young CC Prof
          December 7, 2013 at 10:51 pm #

          Apparently she was still drinking regular non-diet soda and eating quite a few not so great things, and either not monitoring her sugars or ignoring the results.

          • Amyp
            December 8, 2013 at 11:14 pm #

            Holy cow. You must have been so worried and her doc must have been dying inside. I can’t even imagine the “supportive” language to use in that situation.

            How did they manage to save the baby?

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 11:17 pm #

            I didn’t know her at the time, so I don’t know many of the details. Perhaps fortunately for me.

    • rh1985
      December 7, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

      I think I would have to unfriend that person in frustration…

      • December 8, 2013 at 1:09 am #

        I am probably going to get some people to hate me or defriend me. Their loss. They obviously cannot have their views challenged.

    • December 8, 2013 at 12:30 am #

      The conversation so far (I am a radical feminist and converse with other radfems who are mostly anon on facebook and online generally. I think it is a cop out to say that bc medicine is patriarchal so you should not go to the doctor?? it overlooks the achievements of women in medicine which are often overlooked)

      Me: “Women are routinely shaved, enemas performed, episiotomies given by default due to ignorance of what the consequences of not doing this may be. ” You’re right those things are bullshit and should not be done. Episiotomies were done to decrease vaginal tears but actually increased it. However I think C-section are a good option.

      Her: “I know they are not 99% of the times they are performed. Major abdominal surgery is not a good option unless it is absolutely necessary. It hardly ever is.”

      Me: “Neither is pushing a baby through a very narrow space.”

      Me: “with strong pressures compacting the infant’s head and sometimes ripping the tissues that hold the front of the mother’s pelvis together”…/clarifications/HumanBirth.html

      No thx I’d rather kill myself.

      Her: “you really need to learn about how women’s bodies change during labour and how unhindered birth happens. The narrow space opens quite a bit. You could trust a woman who has had three children or you could go research and learn these very basic facts. Women have been giving birth for thousands of years. They started dying from it when men started sticking their hands (obviously unwashed) inside them. I cannot continue this discussion with you because you clearly have no idea of what I am talking about and I do not wish to point out extremely basic stuff like “women dilate”. If you are ever interested in the subject and educate yourself about it, I can gladly resume this argument. This makes no sense right now. Thanks.”

      Her friend: “Good grief Nereida, the vaginal canal is muscular tissue, and designed for expansion (then later contraction), esp during the birthing process. That is not the same as saying women were only put on this earth to only have babies either. Nor saying PIV for recreation is natural, it’s not.
      Your attitude of being revolted by female bodily functions and potential functions (like birthing) are really male attitudes. Females are trained to hate their bodily functions (all of them) and to hide them (not so for burping farting males I might add).

      So the choice is up to you. Given your attitude towards birthing, then really don’t do it. I did not, but for other reasons. Because really, the 6-18 months of smelly diapers is far more of a ‘reason’ than a day or few hours of birthing.”

      Me: “I never said I think giving birth is gross I don’t want to put myself through that hell. Most women have internal trauma from giving birth. C-sections in a sanitary environment are safer than giving birth. Ola you are talking to me like I am retarded. I have researched it and I believe that natural childbirth is misogynist pseudo science bullshit.”

      Her friend: “you keep talking about c-sections ffs!have you even had any kind of abdominal surgery… do you even know what you are promoting with that view???”

      Me: “well neither is ideal but its better than incontinence. Also again I am not retarded I am aware it is major ab surgery please stop condescending me the both of u just bc I support science based medicine. I suffer from a disability Myalgic Encephalomyelitis
      that does not have any drug treatment so its pretty obvious why I do.

      I think I am falling into the radfems that conflate quackery with radfem analysis abyss on facebook…

      • Young CC Prof
        December 8, 2013 at 12:50 am #

        Next time point out that while the folks doing all the gruntwork in pseudoscience are women, the ones getting really rich are generally men. Cancer scammer Burzynski, Mercola, Trudeau (in a bit of trouble with the law now, thank heaven), the Geiers, Wakefield, Gary Null… I could probably keep going for a while.

        About the only female I can think of who’s making serious money off of quackery is Suzanne Somers, and I’d have to check on that.

        Obstetricians, on the other hand, mostly female. They make a decent living, but rarely get rich. Hmmmm.

        With people on the fence, fight pseudoscience with the real thing. The hardcore denialists, though, they don’t understand science and they are absolutely religiously committed to their misunderstandings. You can’t counter their “biology”, so sometimes it helps to take the debate out of the realm of science and into places like economics or history instead.

        • December 8, 2013 at 12:55 am #

          Thank you for the suggestion and the response these responses are literally keeping me sane and my skeptic radfem friends of course.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 1:12 am #

            Most of the time, I try to confront in a way that has a chance of changing views, in the bystanders if not in the person I’m debating with.

            Sometimes, though, especially when you’re faced with a block of 2000 words of random insanity touching on eight different topics, some partly wrong some 100% wrong, it’s just not a good place to confront or engage…anything.

          • December 8, 2013 at 1:39 am #

            Davina Squirrell as I said Nereida, there is no point discussing any of this further – it is not only Ola and myself, but just about every radfem has given you the same pov on elective c-sections.

            and btw, epidurals usually prolong the labour and are frequently responsible for the ‘cascade of intervention’. But you won’t listen, you keep pushing mainstream medicine as if it is the only way – it’s not, and it comes with risks.

            Yeah bc alternative ‘therapies are such a viable alternative…. not.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 1:45 am #

            Some quackery theories are really out there. Some, like “Vitamin C prevents colds” or “the cascade of interventions in childbirth” persist and are widely believed among the general public… even though there’s ample evidence that they are just not true.

          • December 8, 2013 at 2:36 am #

            This same person is now saying that Gardisil has ruined many young womens lives. *eyeroll* When I was in grade 6 in 2006 almost every girl in my class got it. I think it is SO GREAT there is an immunization to prevent an STD! I am pretty sure this is a first of its kind. An innovation. Of course some people think they are fully protected and that is not true but at least it protects against some popular strains. I had absolutely no side effects. The only thing was none of the boys got it only girls? I don’t know if they knew yet that it could prevent cancers and warts in males too. My little sisters did not get her 3 courses of gardisil so we have to make an appointment with the family doctor but I really like how convenient is was to get to take time out of class to get it. The truth is this pseudo science is anti feminist. They spread many myths about womens bodies, as you said its mostly men who make money off it and an important part of any feminist action regardless of your stripe is reproductive care and autonomy! DUH! In radical feminism we call it harm reduction bc we are critical of intercourse.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 2:58 am #

            Maybe I’m just old (I was in grad school in 2006 and my last gender theory class was 2002) but since when was being anti-sex feminist? Control, definitely, but a meaningful “no” means being able to say “yes” if you so choose. (Even if you never so choose.)

            And Gardasil is great. With 30% of girls and only a few boys covered, we’ve seen like a 50% drop in HPV prevalence in the USA, implying we’re actually getting herd immunity even at very poor coverage rates. Which makes sense. One measles patient could expose dozens of people, but most folks just don’t have that many sex partners, certainly not in a short period of time.

          • December 8, 2013 at 3:35 am #

            Radical feminism has been around since the 1960s. Intercourse is a relatively well known book on the subject by Andrea Dworkin.



            You can read Dworkin’s work for free here if you are curious.

            ‘Gender studies’ is a corruption of women’s studies. Radical feminists believe that gender is sex based stereotypes about females. We consider it offensive that some males base their whole ‘gender identity’ on our oppression. Good posts linked below on some the issues radfems have with gender identity legislation if you are interested.



            Agreed. People need to stop the fearmongering on Gardisil. I am getting my flu shot tomorrow, in my province you can get them at pretty much any pharmacy, supermarket etc for free no appointment. Yeah socialized medicine! I think even if the states does not believe in people with serious medical conditions receiving treatment if they can’t pay. Preventive care should be free because even in a capitalist view it is beneficial.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 10:20 am #

            Sometimes, preventative care is free here, the cheapest kinds anyway. We do have vaccine clinics and whatnot.

            As for the RF theory, I can’t get on board with the trans hate part. Transsexuals, young minority MTF in particular, are at incredibly high risk of violence from the patriarchy.

          • Nashira
            December 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

            I think a lot of radfems come from a fairly decent position of privilege: white, middle class or higher, etc. They seem to have a significant amount of intersectionality fail when it comes to trans* persons in general, but ESPECIALLY trans women of color. Most of the transphobia and hatred I have seen spouted, by self-professed radfems, seems rooted in enjoying having privilege and using it as a weapon against other women who have the least likelihood of being able to protect themselves.

            Seriously, it makes me angry.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

            That is not true that we are mostly white and middle class. Where did you get that idea? Please stop talking out of your ass about a movement you know nothing about. Radical feminist literature has been translated in many languages and I have friends all over the world including in India, South Africa and Latin America. Radical feminism is a movement for liberation of all women and we fight tirelessly for protections for the most vulnerable women such as prostituted women and reproductive care like birth control and abortion which all feminists fight for. It is really offensive to call any critique of the trans lobby’s misogyny and lesbophobia “transphobia” when it is men that are actually killing trans males. Here is a link to the blog of a lesbian that has been harmed by the trans ideology.

          • Nashira
            December 9, 2013 at 7:53 pm #

            It’s such a movement for all women that its founders were all middle class or higher white women, uh-huh. The major names you keep dropping are pretty much, as I mentioned before, white women. It’s such a movement for all women that it completely ignores or outright further perpetuates different axes of oppression, such as disabilism, racism, gender identity, sexual orientation…

            Your beliefs and that of your brethren are disgusting, immoral, unethical, dehumanizing, and wrong.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

            There is no way you can back up such a claim of the majority of women in our movement being white and middle class. We are a minority group men refuse to even recognize and we wouldn’t want it any other way. Many of the women in our movement are survivors of the sex trade.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:50 pm #

            Sorry boys, but your kink and sexual fetishes are not a civil right.

          • Lilly de Lure
            December 9, 2013 at 2:04 pm #

            But their bodily autonomy most certainly IS a civil right. Sorry, but what medical procedures people undergo is between them and their doctors, you don’t have the right to some automatic veto because you don’t like how other people choose to live their lives.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:00 pm #

            It has nothing to do with hating them. It has everything to do with criticizing the misogyny of their movement. Also they aren’t M2F because no one can change their biological sex. They are male to trans. Male transgenders are at risk of violence from other men and male violence against women is a much more widespread problem. They still have male privilege. Liberal feminists are free to make their feminism about everyone but we have every right to focus on the global class of females without being called hateful for it. There are environmentalists who focus on the environment, race activists who focus on race etc but it is simply sexist gender roles that men expect women to be everything to everyone.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

            Not from patriarchy. They are fully supported by cosmetic surgeons and lobbying orgs which are all patriarchal institutions. They violence comes from other males.

          • December 9, 2013 at 12:52 pm #

            Though the many lesbians who take T and mutilate their genitals are targets of patriarchy which cannot stand homosexuals especially lesbians.

          • December 9, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

            Vancouver’s Trans Alliance Society, among others, decided to “FlashMob” the solemn memorial for murdered women.

          • Certified Hamster Midwife
            December 8, 2013 at 10:30 pm #

            The formal study of gender theory has nothing on Tumblr, apparently.

          • December 9, 2013 at 11:56 am #

            Formality itself is classism and tumblr is quite hostile to radfems. Most RF blogs use wordpress. tumblr is full of three wave post modernist queer theory stuff.

          • Mishimoo
            December 9, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

            That’s interesting. I tend to stay away from tumblr as every time I have visited, I tend to stumble across the section that is an echo chamber of radfem hatred and fear.

          • Siri Dennis
            December 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm #


        • December 8, 2013 at 12:57 am #

          Davina Squirrell yeah, well what they don’t tell you about abdominal surgery is not only the 6wk recovery, the risk of infection even in ‘sanitary conditions’, but also loss of nerve sensations (for years), and risk of incontinence anyway. Get it through your head, c-section is a very last resort for life saving purposes only, not an option because you think birthing vaginally will hurt.

          You are also positing a false equivalency, because you are saying it has to be natural or nothing – I just said, it is acceptable in life saving circumstances, but not as an elective.

          If you posit an anti RF view, then expect a pile on of opposition. You would get the same reaction if you tried to posit the ‘good porn’ argument. You are doing the birthing equivalent.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena (ME) “Women are routinely shaved, enemas performed, episiotomies given by default due to ignorance of what the consequences of not doing this may be. ”

          It’s funny that women are still repeating this misinformation. These things are NOT the norm anymore. Sounds like how things were in the 70s though episiotomies are still down there is proof of harm and rates are going down.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena I am aware that all surgeries have risk also my views are not anti RF. Part of feminism is advocating for harm reduction like sex based legal protections, abortion, birth control and other proper evidence based reproductive care.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena “thinking” it will hurt. Vaginal birth HURTS to question of it! Its not just in womens heads its not imagined its a real thing… gaslighting]

          Davina Squirrell Elective c-sections are NOT radical feminist endorsed… ok??!!

          Nereida Anwen Filomena So radical feminists do not want women to have life saving medical care? That is not representative of all radical feminists.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena I would not say harm reduction is radical it is reformist but it is necessary.

          Davina Squirrell Again, you are twisting what I said. I said, numerous times, that c-sections are only ever appropriate in life saving situations, and NOT for elective purposes.

          Davina Squirrell you aren’t even arguing a ‘harm reduction’ point! You are arguing FOR unnecessary harm. JFC

          Nereida Anwen Filomena Oh yeah? Tell that to women with valid fear and anxiety around giving birth (something which often kills them without medical care). Women are often met with resistance and judgement for “taking the easy way out”. Because in patriarchy women are seen as fuckholes and breeders and vaginal birth is on an alter. There is nothing subversive about the NCB movement. I feel like I am arguing with trannies.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena Unnecessary harm? Women often die without interventions. They save lives.

          Davina Squirrell au contraire, I feel like I am arguing with a trans/male
          (that is a big insult in the radfem community)

          Davina Squirrell You are not arguing for that Nereida, you are arguing FOR elective c-sections, not life saving ones. You are using a smoke screen. And trying to continually twist what I have said.

          There is seriously no point in continuing this discussion when you are doing that.

          Nereida Anwen Filomena While the folks doing all the gruntwork in pseudoscience are women, the ones getting really rich are generally men. Cancer scammer Burzynski, Mercola, Trudeau (in a bit of trouble with the law now, thank heaven), the Geiers, Wakefield, Gary Null… I could probably keep going for a while.

          About the only female I can think of who’s making serious money off of quackery is Suzanne Somers, and I’d have to check on that.

          Obstetricians, on the other hand, mostly female. They make a decent living, but rarely get rich. Hmmmm.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 1:28 am #

            Heh. I’ve been quoted.

            What they mostly don’t understand is that, while cases of “mother will definitely die without a section” are rare, we don’t have crystal balls, and cases where “Mother and baby MIGHT come through natural birth OK, but there is a significant risk of death or lasting harm to at least one,” are not rare at all.

            Most c-sections are driven neither by mothers “too posh to push” the way they are in the news, nor by absolute desperation the way they were 100 years ago, but by reasonable caution on the part of the medical profession.

            (True maternal request c-sections are a totally different issue. Yes, they should be permitted, but there just aren’t that many in the USA right now.)

          • December 8, 2013 at 1:36 am #

            Because it was extremely quotable and reasoned. Thank you!

        • December 8, 2013 at 1:03 am #

          just tempted to leave an immature response now so heres a pic of Dave Mustaine from Megadeth sticking his tongue out- my preferred response 2 stupidity.

        • Bombshellrisa
          December 8, 2013 at 1:32 am #

          A great starting point is
          I literally had to print up everything they had on “The Greek Cancer Cure” to show my husband (his mother died while pursuing this course of treatment). The site gets into the backstory about how a lot of “natural” treatments got started. Worth a look at, they cover a lot of topics

          • Young CC Prof
            December 8, 2013 at 1:45 am #

            I love quackwatch. I think that was my first skeptic site.

      • December 8, 2013 at 1:05 am #

        I am fairly certain someone trained in obstetrics would say you are both having an argument of process over outcome. A c-section is likely to have a better outcome in some circumstances, and a vaginal birth in others. It really isn’t a matter of which is right for *any* hypothetical patient- it should be considered on a case by case basis. (for the record I am a radical feminist, too- you should have your friend see what midwives are capable of. One of my major mistakes was trusting midwives because they are almost always women)

        • December 8, 2013 at 1:16 am #

          She was misrepresenting my argument. I believe that C-section should be available and allowed to be elective. Not that its the best every time ever. The outcome is most important. She is just mad that I support electives at all.

      • LibrarianSarah
        December 8, 2013 at 10:17 am #

        Your point could have(and should have) been made without using the word “retarded.” If you want to be truly successful in social justice work you need to remove words like that from your vocabulary.

        • December 9, 2013 at 11:51 am #

          I have neurological differences myself. I do grassroots activism not reformist shit when I can help it. Fuck political correctness. Politics is men’s game. You have to understand we are radical feminists not liberals and many of us are working class or poor. Social justice=/women’s liberation.
          “For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change.”

        • December 9, 2013 at 11:53 am #

          Society=patriarchy. Also I was frustrated. If you have a problem with it go hang around with your middle class bleeding heart liberal friends who never criticize men as a class because it isn’t politically correct.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        December 9, 2013 at 12:35 am #

        You could trust a woman who has had three children

        I thought one of the arguments of the NCB was that doctors treated all labors as alike. Yet here is an explicit argument from them that because the author’s births went well you should assume that every woman’s birth will go well. Cognitive dissonance anyone?

    • Antigonos CNM
      December 9, 2013 at 10:56 am #

      “I have studied this thoroughly due to having three children…etc.” no, you haven’t. You haven’t a scintilla of the knowledge or experience of the true professional; it is obvious in what you write. I’m the mother of three, but I have attended literally thousands of women, in all branches of maternity work as well as having studied in rigorous academic programs, and that’s what counts. Your personal experiences in giving birth to three children don’t even qualify as a statistical sample; neither do mine (which, btw, would have convinced me, if I hadn’t known that they were not typical of every woman, that ALL pregnant women should be delivered by C/S)

  6. December 7, 2013 at 4:00 pm #

    The NC movement is so misogynist. It annoys me to see feminists defending it.

    • December 7, 2013 at 6:23 pm #

      I’m working to change it if I can. I’m going to share my story on feministe tomorrow during Shameless Self Promotion Sunday tomorrow. Its a pretty mainstream feminism website. Maybe I should email jezebel?

      • December 7, 2013 at 8:48 pm #

        Yeah that sounds like a good idea! Those are very popular sites.

      • Certified Hamster Midwife
        December 8, 2013 at 10:34 pm #

        XOJane might be interested in your story as an “It happened to me” submission. You would have to condense it and structure it better, but “ITHM: My Midwife Sexually Assaulted Me During Labor” might go over well there.

    • JC
      December 7, 2013 at 10:27 pm #

      I don’t understand this either. Isn’t the very notion of feminism that we are NOT telling women what to do with their bodies? But then you have all of these “feminist” bloggers insisting that womens’ bodies are made to birth naturally, their bodies are designed to breastfeed, they shouldn’t need pain meds. Whether it is men telling women what their bodies should and should not do or it’s women telling women what their bodies should and should not do, it’s still misogynist. All this crap does is make women feel horrible about themselves when their “perfectly designed” bodies fail them. Instead of supporting women, in my eyes these feminists are putting women back in the dark ages of being defined by their bodies and biological processes.

      • Young CC Prof
        December 7, 2013 at 10:50 pm #

        The first-wave feminists said that women deserved pain relief in childbirth, and that even poor women deserved medical help to make birthing safer. (At that time, contraception was hard to come by, spotty in effectiveness, and in many places illegal to talk or write about. Women bore children whether they wanted to or not, and many lived in terror of the actual births.)

        In due time, science obliged, first with Twilight, which was later discontinued due to safety issues, and later with nitrous oxide and eventually epidural anesthesia.

        The second wave of feminists said that women didn’t need to have children, demanded easy and socially acceptable contraception and sexual freedom, as well as the chance to move in society without a husband. When women did have children, said our mothers, they should be free to breastfeed if they chose without anyone shaming them, or to make the fathers take a turn in caring for babies. That they should have choices in how they delivered, be kept informed, and not be forced to birth alone on their backs with feet in stirrups.

        And now? Now you’ve got all the choices in the world–as long as you make the right ones.

  7. December 7, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    For anyone interested in helping me with my case against the birth center-

    So I put up a new post with the questions that the birth center should answer for future patients. I would appreciate anyone who is able to email them and then post the response that they received (if any). I would give them a week to respond.

    thank you everyone. I know I don’t always share the same beliefs with everyone here 100% of the time, but I am very thankful for everyone on this website who has supported me during this fight. You all have done more for me than anyone with power in the natural childbirth community, that’s for sure.

  8. Bombshellrisa
    December 6, 2013 at 8:24 pm #

    The things I have heard this pregnancy have been eye opening. I have been struggling with prenatal depression. It’s scary. People assume that anytime a baby is involved, the woman should be happy, ecstatic, ect. There is very little tolerance for someone who is struggling with sadness, anxiety or any other feeling that doesn’t involve hugs and kittens. Seriously. I think sometimes it’s hard for providers to address as well. When someone is seriously ill with depression, the last thing anyone needs is a rendition of how other people have it worse, you need to power through it or whatever other lame words of wisdom people dole out when they feel they have to advise you about your mental health and how to “fix” it.

    • Kara
      December 6, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

      I had prenatal depression as well, it was absolutely horrible.

      • Antigonos CNM
        December 7, 2013 at 5:19 am #

        Women who have short, easy labors, the sort who can squat on the carpet or kitchen table and squirt out the baby with a minimum of fuss, and then go plow the back forty tend to have great difficulty imagining that any other woman has any other kind of birth, IMO.

        Women who have coneived children out of love, and which are wanted have great difficulty in understanding that not all babies are wanted or welcomed.

        Just about everyone has a problem understanding how a pregnant woman or a new mother can be depressed–in fact the women themselves are not always aware of their own depression–in my own case, I suffered from a very mild form of delayed PP depression after the birth of my second child, and only recognized it after seeing a TV documentary.

        In other words, one’s beliefs and prejudices are largely formed through one’s own experiences. Thos of us in the “profession” have the advantage of having a wider range of experience, which gives us a more informed viewpoint, yhat’s all.

        • Bombshellrisa
          December 7, 2013 at 8:08 pm #

          I agree that many women aren’t aware of depression during pregnancy. There is a lot of monitoring of physical signs and symptoms-I don’t know any woman who would hesitate to tell her HCP if she was having unusual headaches, palpitations or shortness of breath but the same women might not view depression or anxiety worthy of reporting. It needs to be explained a little better too, if gestational diabetes can be explained to patients(it’s a chemical imbalance!), then depression or anxiety can be explained and treated too.

          • moto_librarian
            December 9, 2013 at 11:17 am #

            Have you found someone who can treat you, Bombshellrisa? I went into both of my pregnancies on my antidepressant and stayed on it throughout. CBT or talk therapy might help you too, but if things don’t improve or get worse, try to find someone to talk to about medication.

          • Bombshellrisa
            December 9, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

            I am at the point where I want to talk about medication. There is a psychiatrist who has two days a week at the practice my OB is at (the convenience is great!). I am going to consult with her and see what she thinks.

        • Kara
          December 8, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

          I didn’t realise I had it either. It made me very irritable towards others and I just thought it was my personality. My daughter is almost 2 and I’ve been seeing a psychologist off and on for a year and have only just succumbed to going on SSRIs. I thought it would go away on its own but in my case it just lingered and lingered, ever since my first trimester. My husband was not supportive at all. I got a lot of “I thought pregnancy and birth was supposed to be the happiest time of a woman’s life.” and “This is hard on me, you;re being selfish by bringing me down.” and “It’s in your head and you can control it.” The past few years have been really hard and lonely.

          • moto_librarian
            December 10, 2013 at 9:26 am #

            Kara, I hope that the SSRIs work for you! I don’t know if your doctor has told you this, but it can take up to 8 weeks to realize the full effects of the medication (the same can be said for a dosage change). Also, it may take awhile to find the right medication. I tried Paxil, Remeron, Wellbutrin, and finally found the right fit with Effexor. It can be very frustrating, but once you find the right combination, it is immensely helpful.

            Also, I hope that your husband has considered doing couples therapy. He clearly doesn’t understand mental illness, and he isn’t helping you in your recovery by behaving this way.

    • MichelleJo
      December 7, 2013 at 9:52 pm #

      Pre-natal depression is the number one reason I stopped when I did. And I didn’t have easy pregnancies physically at all. Pre-natal depression can be so bad, it actually feels physical.

  9. amazonmom
    December 6, 2013 at 8:24 pm #

    I had my son via RCS yesterday. 9 pounds 7 ounces at 39 weeks 2 days. He’s breastfeeding and sleeping amazingly well. I’m not getting any flack about my medications or my mental health history. The whole experience has been woo free and very happy!

    • An Actual Attorney
      December 6, 2013 at 8:25 pm #


    • Bombshellrisa
      December 6, 2013 at 8:25 pm #

      Congrats!!! That is wonderful news!

    • Young CC Prof
      December 6, 2013 at 8:27 pm #

      Excellent! Glad he’s here and things are going smoothly!

    • Mishimoo
      December 6, 2013 at 8:29 pm #

      Wow! Congratulations 😀

    • Meerkat
      December 6, 2013 at 8:57 pm #


    • Burgundy
      December 6, 2013 at 8:59 pm #


    • anion
      December 6, 2013 at 9:01 pm #

      Congratulations! Wonderful news!

    • Amazed
      December 6, 2013 at 9:14 pm #


    • FormerPhysicist
      December 6, 2013 at 10:19 pm #


    • Nashira
      December 7, 2013 at 11:55 am #

      Woohoo! 😀 Yay happy woo-free experiences!

    • Dr Kitty
      December 7, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

      Rest, sleep and eat while you can…the real fun begins once you get home!

    • prolifefeminist
      December 7, 2013 at 7:32 pm #

      Wonderful!! Congratulations! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • yentavegan
      December 7, 2013 at 10:07 pm #

      Mazel Tov!

    • moto_librarian
      December 9, 2013 at 11:16 am #

      Congratulations, amazonmom! I am so happy that the birth went well and that your son is thriving!

  10. Hannah
    December 6, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

    This should perhaps be under the Beatrix Campbell post, but I thought it deserved greater attention:

  11. healthy mama
    December 6, 2013 at 7:12 pm #

    hey amy tuteur… you’re scary as fuck and i hope you don’t have children of your own. if so, i am sorry for them. its disgusting that you would push drugs and unnecessary surgery on women like this. it shouldn’t be normalized. shouldn’t be convenient to have a child. despicable! you are a disgrace to women.

    • Burgundy
      December 6, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

      Apparently you did not read any of the articles in this blog. Why don’t you do some homework before you speak?

    • IDHACN
      December 6, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

      She does not push drugs. She does not push unnecessary surgery. Please educate yourself as to what exactly your opponent believes before you go spouting off like an ignorant fool.

    • December 6, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

      Its gross that you are pushing not using drugs (when they are needed) and surgery (when it is needed) and probably formula (when it is needed). Patient request absolutely counts.

      NCBers always say “those things are SO GREAT but only IF THEY ARE REALLY NEEDED” but you can basically never get them to admit when it is actually needed. Like this woman who said her five day labor wasn’t risky or unusual at all:

      (kinda takes awhile to get to the birth story, you can control+f and search for 5 day)

    • Veterinarian
      December 6, 2013 at 7:52 pm #

      ‘Scary as fuck’ . . . hmmm . . . which aspect of Dr. Amy’s writing that be? Her advocacy for evidence-based medical practices? Her support for a mother’s right to choose how she wants to birth and feed her baby?

      If I had to guess I’d say you find her scary because she challenges your quasi-religious beliefs about how birth ‘should’ be. It’s uncomfortable when someone says something that rattles the foundations of our belief systems.

      But here’s some advice: Breathe. Breathe and listen. And imagine for a moment – just for kicks – that Dr. Amy might be right about a thing or 3. Can you stop reacting long enough to even fathom it?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      December 6, 2013 at 7:56 pm #

      Hey, disgusted mom, stick to your original screen name.

    • Amy M
      December 6, 2013 at 8:14 pm #

      Why should it be inconvenient to have a child? And for whom? I mean sure, they generally require parents to make sacrifices, but my children were very much wanted and planned, not at all inconvenient. I suppose one might say the hospital staff were a bit inconvenienced since I went in, in labor at 4am, but not really since they were there on their shift or on call.

    • anion
      December 6, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

      “It shouldn’t be normalized?” I had two c-sections; should I not be permitted to feel okay about that or like it’s a normal thing? Would you like me to wear a scarlet C on my clothing, or a sign proclaiming my abnormality? When I introduce my children, how long should I wait before I’m required to inform strangers that they were born through an abnormal process that means something is wrong with me? How do you know my sections were “unnecessary,” and why exactly is how I gave birth any of your freaking business?

      And yeah, why shouldn’t it be convenient to have a child? How old were you when your first child was born? Do you use birth control, or did you ever? Because if you do, I hope you realize that you’re deliberately not having a child because it might not be convenient to do so at this time (or whenever you did use birth control). How does ensuring you don’t get pregnant jibe with “it shouldn’t be convenient to have a child?” (If I wanted to be really nasty and judgmental, like you’re being, I’d say if having a child is so “inconvenient” for you perhaps you’re doing it wrong or just shouldn’t have any; I’ve never thought of my children as “inconvenient” or felt they hindered my life, but I guess I’m just unnatural all around.)

      What’s “a disgrace to women” is the idea that we should be forced to endure childbirth without pain relief because…we deserve it, I guess? What’s “a disgrace to women” is the idea that not performing a particular biological function to *your* standards means we’re “abnormal.” Your sexism and misogyny is revolting. Tell me, which painful medical processes and procedures do you believe men should have to undergo without pain relief, because that’s “normal?”

    • Renee
      December 7, 2013 at 12:38 am #

      Because you get to decide whats normal, amirate???

    • Captain Obvious
      December 7, 2013 at 1:16 am #

      Haha healthy disgusted mom mama. Need friends? Just make some up.

    • Bombshellrisa
      December 7, 2013 at 2:05 am #

      I would rather have birth by c-section, adequate pain medication and technology In medicine (as well as access to quality healthcare) be “normal” than still births, fistulas, and woo of any kind being “normal”.

    • Antigonos CNM
      December 7, 2013 at 5:25 am #

      Ah, the excellence of your mode of expression! Very impressive and convincing.

      So you think it would have been preferable for women like myself to have died in labor rather than survived with medical assistance? You remind me of the zealous atheist but I hope you never find yourself in a foxhole. i presume the allusion will escape you, however.

      • Wren
        December 8, 2013 at 10:38 am #

        Let’s not bring atheism or religious belief into this. There most certainly have been atheists in foxholes and it’s actually a pretty dismissive allusion.

        • Certified Hamster Midwife
          December 8, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

          Thank you.

      • Laura
        December 9, 2013 at 9:21 am #

        Right, because religious zealots doesn’t exist at all.
        The thing is, someone with extreme opinions doesn’t represent the group he or she belongs to as a whole.
        And, being an atheist myself, I can’t help but facepalm when I see a zealous atheist, because his behavior is no better than that of the religious zealot whom he is criticizing.

        • Antigonos CNM
          December 9, 2013 at 10:32 am #

          Well, rather obviously the allusion was too abstruse, because you have misunderstood me. My point is that people like Nereida have no problem in attacking and deriding medical professionals (especially male ones, with the implication that there is a sexual element in their behavoir) for doing all kinds of vicious, sadistic, and unnecessary things to women but, when things go south, they are at the ER door in a trice, and if a doctor can’t rescue them from the mess they created with their false theories, then it is doctors, hospitals and medicine that is to blame, not themselves.

          • Wren
            December 9, 2013 at 11:45 am #

            I got the allusion, but I don’t like it. There have been plenty of atheists in foxholes, and the idea that any atheist will change their beliefs in an immediate life or death situation, which is what you were referring to, is pretty offensive. Imagine an argument that all Jewish people will convert to Christianity in a foxhole if you can’t see the problem with what you have said.

          • Laura
            December 9, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

            No, I didn’t misunderstand what you said. I get it and even agree with you. I just didn’t like how you said it.
            By comparing people that ignored medical advice but who ran to the hospital when the shit hit the fan to atheists, you’re basically saying that they’ll deny the existence of a god until something bad happens to them, because then they’ll pray for their lives.
            You could’ve come up with a better comparison, because that one is pretty much offensive.


    • prolifefeminist
      December 7, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

      Oh dear…I love my children to the ends of the earth, but their births were anything but “convenient.” I don’t think anything about having a child is convenient, but that’s not exactly the point of having a child, is it.

      And by the way…my unmedicated vaginal births were a whole lot more convenient than my c-sections – does that mean they were bad? Why would that even matter? And to you, of all people? Live and let live, my dear. I’m glad I don’t have your bitterness and anger – that surely would interfere with my ability to parent using my whole head and heart.

      The whole point is about stepping back and allowing women to make choices in childbirth without pressure to conform to the unproven standards of an ideology – the one that puts the “birth experience” over, ya know, the BABY.

    • Rebecca
      December 8, 2013 at 9:31 am #

      Shouldn’t be convenient to have a child. Like this, right, healthy mama?

      “To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)

    • batmom
      December 8, 2013 at 3:59 pm #

      There’s a great amount of doublethink here. On the one hand, C-sections are bad because they are unnecessary surgery forced upon women who should have trusted birth and had their babies gently and naturally. On the other hand, C-sections are bad because they are convenient for selfish women who shouldn’t have had babies if they didn’t want the pain of natural childbirth.

      So, make up my mind — which is it? Is birth gentle and natural, or a painful but necessary sacrifice?

  12. drmoss
    December 6, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    More helpful advice on the lines of physical ilnesses being treated the way we treat mental illness:

  13. December 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm #

    omg how special, they made a post about how it was all in my head. Doctor amy please help yourself:

    • IDHACN
      December 6, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

      It’s like gaslighting without even talking to a specific person.

      It’s also very passive aggressive – “didn’t like our services? There’s a good chance you’re just wacko!” Whoever wrote that odd attempt at self defense that did not do their business any favors

      • December 6, 2013 at 4:46 pm #

        They don’t want to address my actual claims because I’ve documented everything extensively. The most damning stuff is the email thread from the business owner, really. Her own words keep screwing her.

        • KarenJJ
          December 6, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

          I don’t have any specific advice, but well done for getting them talking and keeping them talking. The more they keep talking the more they put their foot in it.

    • MaineJen
      December 6, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

      Did they seriously just call anyone who wasn’t happy with their services “mentally ill?” WOW. That entire post just comes off as defensive and passive-aggressive. Not a good combination.

      • LibrarianSarah
        December 6, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

        Nevermind insulting to people with mental illness. Between them and the Feminist Breeder calling everyone who has the audacity to diagrees with her “psycho” NCBers are batting 0 when it comes to respecting mental illness.

    • December 6, 2013 at 5:13 pm #

      Wow. Just…wooooooooow (I’m saying this like Dr. Zazio from Hoarders)

    • Burgundy
      December 6, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

      Wow, what a nice way to run a business.

    • Squillo
      December 6, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

      That’s a seriously bad PR 101 move. They’ve essentially moved the power of the bad reviews to their own site, which ensures that folks who would never have seen the bad reviews “in the wild” know know they exist. Moreover, when most folks see that you’ve had to devote an entire page of your web site to bad reviews, they know that there’s a problem with your service. Plus, dissing your customers is generally frowned upon as a marketing technique.

      • December 6, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

        My website is directly underneath theirs when you google em anyway though, so maybe they figured there isn’t any harm? I did a very good job of promoting the web page. I learned a lot about the internet through trying to get my story out there. It works 1000x better than traditional media.

    • Trixie
      December 6, 2013 at 8:00 pm #

      I think I’m late to the party, is there somewhere I could read about what happened to you?

    • Elizabeth A
      December 6, 2013 at 11:56 pm #

      WOw. Just wow. “May have mental illnesses that prevent them from accurately perceiving the events of labor?”

      You know who often has trouble accurately perceiving the events of labor? Women in labor. Especially with long or dysfunctional labors. Pain and exhaustion do that to people ALL THE TIME. People who work with birth should darn well know that, and allow for it.

      That, frankly, is why I think a post-partum debriefing session with the HCP who delivered the baby would be a good thing. It’s not a mental health issue.

  14. batmom
    December 6, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    Advice on breastfeeding on the Internet is crazy-making. My sister is having a hell of time with her newborn son, because he has a good, strong latch, but at two weeks old is still learning. So she’s sore and cracked and called me panicked because he drew blood…

    .. and much of the prominent Internet information is more aimed at cheering her on than helping her heal.

    Fortunately, I was able to help her out, and she’s healing and still nursing. She was absolutely panicked at the thought that she’d have to endure that kind of pain for a year! But it’s like the writers of this advice are so afraid of deviating from the ideal nursing experience that they abandon common sense. A nipple shield or pumping to take a break might help!

    • Suzi Screendoor
      December 7, 2013 at 2:31 pm #

      And the miraculous prescription nipple ointment from the pharmacy! So much better than Lanolin.

      • Wissa
        December 8, 2013 at 2:13 pm #

        Really? Oh, I needed that prescription.

    • Certified Hamster Midwife
      December 7, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

      Vampire babies are a variation of normal.

  15. December 6, 2013 at 2:37 pm #

    Yep! That was the position of the midwives in court yesterday, they didn’t do anything wrong, my perception is just incorrect. That is what they say to everyone they have bothered to respond to after misconduct.

    I found out that the woman I’ve been fighting with drafted the direct entry midwifery laws in utah. Its her fault its a voluntary licensure state.

    • Amy M
      December 6, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

      That’s awful, but I’m glad you are standing up for yourself despite how difficult it must be.

      • December 6, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

        my husband was there with me and saw everything. You can’t gaslight two people at the same time. If he hadn’t been there to see it all with me I don’t know if I could have put up such a fight.

    • drmoss
      December 6, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

      Is this the ‘birth rape’ case?

    • An Actual Attorney
      December 6, 2013 at 7:26 pm #

      Was this your appeal? I’m sorry I can’t quite remember.

      • December 6, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

        nope it was the initial case. I’m going to base my appeal on the undisclosed conflict of interest between their expert witness and the defendant.

        • An Actual Attorney
          December 6, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

          Ah… sorry I couldn’t remember. I’m glad it is going well. I’m impressed with your strength.

          • December 6, 2013 at 9:06 pm #

            Thank you! I’m thinking of possibly going to lawschool in the future to help women who are hurt by maternity care providers. This shit needs to stop.

          • Nashira
            December 7, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

            You should do it, imho, if you can afford it.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 7, 2013 at 12:14 pm #

            Law school is expensive and challenging. Not sure what the less costly options in the Utah area are, but if you can find something affordable, give it a try! (Don’t take major loans, though, these days most law students who borrow large sums regret it, unless they have the connections to get a really coveted spot with a wealthy firm.)

            Sorry, professor hat.

    • Renee
      December 7, 2013 at 12:43 am #

      What they did was some sick shit, Im sorry you had to deal with those people.

  16. average mama
    December 6, 2013 at 2:27 pm #

    this! exactly this! I had postpartum depression with my first and couldn’t understand why I couldn’t just “cheer up.” That plus the guilt of “giving in” and having an epidural and all that… it was horrendous. I cried for a week until I started on medication. Two days ago, I gave birth to my third (on my birthday!), and it was lovely. I went in, got an epidural, and everything proceeded smoothly and beautifully until my gorgeous daughter was born. I didn’t hesitate to ask to continue my anti-depressant and am now home, happy and well-rested after sending my daughter to the nursery for a few hours. No tears this time. What a blessing to find a supportive community here!

    • Mishimoo
      December 6, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

      Yay! Congratulations on the safe arrival! It’s so cool that you get to share a birthday.

      • disgusted mom
        December 6, 2013 at 7:08 pm #

        not natural, kinda weird actually. youre all ridiculous for choosing to be sliced open and ripping your baby away from the womb without them being ready. shame. shame!

        • An Actual Attorney
          December 6, 2013 at 7:15 pm #

          well, since there was no other way out for my kiddo and i went in the labor the morning of my scheduled c, i’m not ridiculous, and he was clearly ready. you’re a fool.

          • batmom
            December 6, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

            She’s an idiot who misread “my baby showed up on my birthday!” with “I SCHEDULED MY BABY TO BE RIPPED UNTIMELY FROM MY WOMB ALL MACBETH STYLE” so we’d have matching calendar dates.

            Reading is hard for pieces of shit.

          • An Actual Attorney
            December 6, 2013 at 7:19 pm #

            oh, i wanted kiddo to be macbeth style. he loves carrying around big sticks and fallen branches (he’s three now) and I’m sure this is why.

          • Burgundy
            December 6, 2013 at 7:28 pm #

            I really want to ask her “do you understand English?” But she doesn’t know my background (non-native English speaker) and might be to dumb to understand the joke.

          • Wren
            December 7, 2013 at 3:42 am #

            Mine was “ripped from my body” at 40 weeks, 6 days after I went into labour and didn’t want to chance the high risks of death and disability for a vaginal footling breech delivery. Disgusting mother of a happy, healthy 8 year old now. Shame on me.

        • batmom
          December 6, 2013 at 7:16 pm #

          Wow, you’re a piece of shit, aren’t you. Got to suck to be you.

        • KarenJJ
          December 6, 2013 at 7:24 pm #

          Why is it any of your business what other women are choosing to do?

        • Veterinarian
          December 6, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

          Wow, you’re quite the nutter, aren’t you? What indication was there in her post that they baby wasn’t ‘ready’ (ie premature)? I re-read it but I can’t find that part. Can you point it out? And what’s ridiculous about using the most advanced knowledge and technology to deliver the baby safely? Are you similarly against indoor plumbing, automobiles and light bulbs? How is it you don’t mind posting on the internet? It’s such an unnatural way for human to communicate! Shame!

        • Mishimoo
          December 6, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

          I think you may have replied to the wrong person. Regardless of that, it is incredibly rude to try and force your preferences onto someone else.

        • Trixie
          December 6, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

          You’re right. I’ve reconsidered my whole birth experience based on your insights, and have concluded, based on this new information you’ve shared, that it would be better to have had a noble stillbirth then, than a rowdy kindergartener now. You’re a genius.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 6, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

            Woooh nature! Let’s have eight kids and bury five of them, like my great-great-grandma did! Can’t mess with the natural order, right? Antibiotics and vaccines are Evil Interventions.

          • Karen in SC
            December 6, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

            I think you’ve got something there with the term “noble stillbirth” , as chilling as it is.

        • Siri Dennis
          December 7, 2013 at 4:42 am #

          Disgusting – sorry disgusted – mom, time to return to the 17th Century.

        • average mama
          December 7, 2013 at 10:46 am #

          I actually “chose” to let my baby come out after starting labor naturally the day before my birthday, laboring all through the night during my shift as an ER nurse, and finally going into to let her rip her own way out (2nd degree tear) at 9:45 pm after laboring through the day on my birthday. She was 38w6d, over 9 lbs, and came out with 4 pushes, so I daresay SHE was at least as ready as I. 🙂

        • Dr Kitty
          December 7, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

          Totally, I’m ridiculous.

          I was born with a spine which is fused to my pelvis, and have bits of metal in my back, so I decided that it made sense to have an elective CS when at 38 weeks my daughter’s head was still not engaged in my pelvis and her estimated weight was approaching the limit my OB felt was feasible.

          I fully believe that had she survived a vaginal birth or emergency CS her brain function would not have been unscathed.

          At four she writes her name, does times tables and knows all eight planets and many of their moons. I chose surgery for me so my daughter could reach her full potential.

          How totally, totally ridiculous of me.
          I want to be able to brag about my child’s achievements, not about how I gave birth to her.

        • moto_librarian
          December 9, 2013 at 11:09 am #

          Um, pretty sure that average mama had a vaginal delivery, so I don’t quite get this whole “sliced open” crap.

    • Jocelyn
      December 6, 2013 at 6:01 pm #

      Congratulations! 😀

    • disgusted mom
      December 6, 2013 at 7:08 pm #


      • Maria
        December 6, 2013 at 7:12 pm #

        Please explain what is gross about getting an epidural.

        • disgusted mom
          December 6, 2013 at 7:19 pm #

          a super long needle being inserted into your spine to numb you and drug your baby??????? thats fucking gross moron. if you think otherwise its because a doctor shoved that down your senseless throat. fucking sheeple

          • An Actual Attorney
            December 6, 2013 at 7:20 pm #


          • Guestll
            December 6, 2013 at 7:29 pm #

            Please explain how the needle is “inserted into your spine” as well as “drug your baby”.
            Actually, don’t bother. You’re late for your Anger Management course (followed by your Achieving Something Other Than Giving Birth course) so best you get going.

          • Veterinarian
            December 6, 2013 at 8:21 pm #

            I hate to bother you with the facts but, FYI, an epidural needle doesn’t touch the spinal cord and because the drugs in the epidural remain localized (which means they do not circulate systemically) they do not enter the fetal circulation and ‘drug’ the baby.

            Funny you should use the term ‘sheeple’ (people who don’t bother to educate themselves to the facts and just follow popular opinion) since, in this case, that would describe YOU.

          • December 6, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

            I’ve seen spinal taps (which is the thing you are describing, as other people have pointed out epidurals do not go into your spine) and didn’t think it was gross. “Gross” isn’t objective.

          • Jennifer2
            December 6, 2013 at 11:37 pm #

            I thought it was pretty gross and scary too – until I had an epidural. It. Was. Awesome! Thinking about it too much still kind of weirds me out, but if I have another kid, I will be getting that epidural so much sooner. The pain I experienced before that was not worthwhile. I can do without ever experiencing it again.

          • Julia
            December 7, 2013 at 1:15 pm #

            Epidurals do not drug the baby

      • Renee
        December 7, 2013 at 12:45 am #

        YOU are gross. Anyone that could read a happy mom talk about her kids birth and say gross is seriously messed up.

    • anion
      December 6, 2013 at 9:04 pm #


    • moto_librarian
      December 9, 2013 at 11:10 am #

      Congratulations! I am so happy that you had an easy delivery and are feeling well. I stayed on my antidepressant throughout both of my pregnancies, and I am convinced that it prevented me from developing PPD.

  17. Young CC Prof
    December 6, 2013 at 11:44 am #

    Definitely, way too much judgey out there! I was JUST hunting for good info on what it’s actually like to have a scheduled c-section, and every single page was all “Surgery is bad, m’kay, so you’ve got to be really sure! Here are some ways to argue with your doctor about whether it’s really necessary. And if you’re choosing a c-section, it’s just because you’re scared of labor, you can’t possibly be making a rational decision.”

    Okay, smug people, if my baby is still breech and we fail one of our weekly growth scans or BPPs, I’m having a c-section. I’m fine with this. Just explain to me what’s going to happen without any judgement or advice, unless of course it’s recovery advice.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      December 6, 2013 at 11:57 am #

      My wife had some issues handling the anesthesia (it was a spinal block) the first time around, so she was sure to have it dealt with preemptively on our second.

      That was the biggest issue we faced. Her doctor hit her with some pretty hefty lifting restrictions after our second, something like the full six weeks on a 10 lb limit. Basically the only thing she could lift was the baby.

      I remember she had bleeding issues after her first – lasted something like 10 weeks (nothing really causing it, just normal), but it was only like 3 weeks after the second. I don’t know how these would compare to vaginal births, though.

      To be honest, I was concerned about her recovery before the first c-section, given how much she struggled with recovery from her laproscopic appendectomy. However, it seemed to be a lot easier with the c-section. Combination of a new baby and vicodin, I guess….

      • Young CC Prof
        December 6, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

        Huh. I’ve had a laparoscopy. Wasn’t too bad except the first night, and that was mostly because the initial pain was really poorly controlled. Good to know!

        • Dr Kitty
          December 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

          My CS was less painful than either my diagnostic laparoscopy or my lap appendicectomy.

          I did not enjoy the Enoxaparin injections.

          I got 24 hrs of a catheter and bed rest afterwards, but only because the combo of a spinal and spina bifida and neuropathic bladder made everyone a little twitchy, I’m sure you’d be up and about and peeing much sooner!

          I found I spent much of the first weeks in bed or in a nursing chair or on the sofa, so the incision wasn’t a big deal, and I got cleared to drive after two weeks because I was going stir crazy.

          I didn’t bleed as heavily as I thought I would either, certainly less than a normal period, although I know that this is NOT USUAL. Since I didn’t leak milk either I was left with boxes of unused breast pads and maternity pads…don’t get sucked into 3for2 deals before the birth for stuff you might not need!

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 5:44 pm #

            Another non-leaker here!

    • VeritasLiberat
      December 6, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

      I’ve had a scheduled c-section. What do you want to know? My favorite recovery advice would be: take the percocet whenever they offer it. Because if it hurts less, then you’ll be more likely to move around, which if you do a reasonable amount of it, will make it so that the incision site is less stiff (or something), anyway it will more quickly make it easier and less painful to walk, turn, etc. so you will recover–and then not need the meds–more quickly than if you try to tough it out and end up just lying in bed because it hurts to get up. I say this as a person with a really crappy pain tolerance…I have been known to cry during teethbcleanngs. I was in the hospital for 4 days, lots of pain relief in the beginning after the surgery (I still remember standing up for the first time and shuffling to the bathroom a few inches at a time, that was not so fun, though using the bathroom itself was ok) but by the time I went home I felt fine, no meds, and I carried the baby plus the infant carseat.

      • Josephine
        December 6, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

        I so agree. Do NOT be a hero about pain medication. I tried to cut back too quickly on my own (because I had hardly felt any pain at all up to that point)…and after a few painful hours I decided to let the nurse give me my full dose, heh.

    • theadequatemother
      December 6, 2013 at 1:14 pm #

      Try these. I promise this isn’t shameless self promotion although all are links to my blog.

      Memorial Hermann live-tweeted a csection a few months ago. I think there is also video. See links from the post.

      Links to a video on the “natural c-section.” Elements of this are becoming way more mainstream – finding ways to allow you to watch your child’s birth (mirrors or clear drapes), skin to skin in the OR etc.

      What my experiences of being in hundreds and hundreds (maybe a thousand by now?) of c-sections have taught me:

      • Young CC Prof
        December 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

        I will DEFINITELY read those!

    • Trixie
      December 6, 2013 at 2:39 pm #

      My advice is to be prepaired with lots of granny panties that come up way higher than your incision and won’t chafe it. 🙂

      • FormerPhysicist
        December 6, 2013 at 5:40 pm #

        I <3 my boppy. Allowed my to rest my infant on my lap without putting pressure on the incision. I took the boppy to the hospital, too.

        • Trixie
          December 6, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

          IMO the My Brest Friend (yes that’s really what it’s called) is an even better nursing pillow because it’s firmer all around. And actually elevates the baby to the right level. Once I got one, I couldn’t stand the Boppy anymore. Not as good for propping up a 4 month old, though.

    • December 6, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

      If I knew then what I know now I would have scheduled.

      • disgusted mom
        December 6, 2013 at 7:09 pm #

        thats fucked up. what if you were having babies 100 years ago and didnt have the luxury?? people like you shouldnt have kids

        • Maria
          December 6, 2013 at 7:11 pm #

          Judge much?

        • Veterinarian
          December 6, 2013 at 7:21 pm #

          Who died and left you in charge of what constitutes adequate parent material? And what are your qualifications? And since when is decreasing pain become a bad thing?

        • An Actual Attorney
          December 6, 2013 at 7:23 pm #

          100 years ago, both me and my kid would have died. I wasn’t interested in that outcome. Me likey medical progress.

          • Bombshellrisa
            December 6, 2013 at 8:15 pm #

            Technology is awesome!!

          • Amy M
            December 6, 2013 at 8:16 pm #

            Oh without it, I wouldn’t even have children, yay ART!

        • KarenJJ
          December 6, 2013 at 7:27 pm #

          Eugenics. Have a read about it. It seems to suit what you’re saying here.

        • Guestll
          December 6, 2013 at 7:33 pm #

          I hope you’re passing on your excellent grasp of grammar/syntax/punctuation/spelling/rage/sanctimony to yours, dear.

        • December 6, 2013 at 7:52 pm #

          If I was having babies 100 years ago, I would not gave been able to terminate my first pregnancy for catastrophic skeletal defects. Most likely, my son would have been forced to work in a freak show, while living a life of extreme pain. But I don’t. I live in an incredible era, where I literally carry the sum of human knowledge in my pocket (accessing the internet via phone, since somehow I bet you started replying already and won’t get it).

          If my living son had been born 100 years ago, he and I probably would have died of “fever” because antibiotics and a timely c-section solved this simple issue. That assumes that we would have made it to delivery at all. Without modern medicine, I would have been too ill to function at all, if I survived.

          That also doesn’t include all of the additional issues of nutrition, sanitation, vaccine-preventable diseases I could have gotten over a lifetime… In short, I am extremely privileged just by living in a first world country with modern medicine.

          I think your attack is very strong evidence that the Natural Childbirth Bullying (NCB) activism is dominated by privileged, upper middle class women. You just told a total stranger, a mother just like the ones NCBullies say they support, that she doesn’t *deserve* to have children. Because instead of subjecting my son to the distress birth caused him, instead of missing the first two hours if his life because the C-Section was after a day of hard labor with increasingly high blood pressure and a growing fever and I ended up being knocked out, instead of the terrible anxiety and fear, I would have chosen to calmly walk in, have my son peacefully and held him immediately?

          Who the hell do you think you are?

        • Captain Obvious
          December 7, 2013 at 1:14 am #

          Here we go… But 100 years ago….

        • Siri Dennis
          December 7, 2013 at 4:59 am #

          100 years ago they hanged prople for not using capital letTers CorrecTly.

          • Siri Dennis
            December 7, 2013 at 5:00 am #

            Prople? People I mean. Duh.

        • OttawaAlison
          December 7, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

          Since there has been about 2500 other days than the day my daughter was extracted from my uterus – I have learned having kids is soooo much more than how they were born.

          Perspective is a wonderful thing!

        • December 8, 2013 at 12:53 am #

          I would have died if I was born 100 years ago. If not from the umbilical cord around my neck, from the fever that gave me seizures as an infant or the scarlet fever I caught in elementary school or the pneumonia in my teens or the mono in college. Or a random infection from cutting myself on something. Or any number of other nasty things.

          Modern medicine is a fantastic thing. Why do you knock it?

        • moto_librarian
          December 9, 2013 at 11:03 am #

          100 years ago, I would have bled to death from a pph caused by a cervical laceration.

          Do you have a crystal ball that allows you to determine whether or not your births will go well? If you don’t, maybe you should just shut the hell up and realize that no one can predict how birth is going to go.

    • December 6, 2013 at 3:32 pm #

      On scheduled cesareans I suggest the following: facebook group: Cesarean by Choice Awareness Network – a lot of people there have had them personally….!/groups/403330643071622/
      My blog – (mostly about maternal request cesarean):
      and Pauline Hull’s blog and website: and
      All the best on your pending arrival!

    • Leica
      December 6, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

      My scheduled c-section was freakin’ awesome. The nice thing with scheduled c-sections is you can generally have it organized the way you would like. I really wanted baby to stay with me in the OR as long as he was stable, wanted him put on my chest in the OR, wanted a mirror to watch the whole thing, and I did NOT want sedatives. During my first I was given Versed after the baby was out because it was standard procedure. I didn’t know I was going to get it until I suddenly felt foggy. If that would be an issue, just clear with your anesthesiologist that they need to ask you before administering meds, except in an emergency situation. I even got to pick the OR music.

      • Young CC Prof
        December 6, 2013 at 8:22 pm #

        Good to know about the Versed! Now, there’s a good chance my son will NEED to be whisked off to the nursery, but hopefully I’ll get to hold him a bit first.

        • Leica
          December 6, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

          I didn’t have the slightest problem with him going to the nursery if he needed it, but with my first it was just standard that all c-section babies went to the nursery until mom was out of recovery, so about 3 hours. It was primarily so they could reduce the staff needed. With my 2nd, I was in a hospital that used the LDRP model, and that was so much nicer.

          I hope that everything goes smoothly for you and your baby arrives happy and healthy!

    • R T
      December 6, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

      The surgery was not bad at all! However, I’m one of the 10% of people that gets no pain relief from the duramorph they inject in your spine. I was literally clawing the wall in recovery and screaming like the wounded animal I was! I had zero pain relief and could feel everything and move my feet as they were wheeling me out of the OR. The staff had never dealt with it before and had NO idea what was happening. They thought I was drug seeking and it took 7 hours for them to finally hook me up to a patient controlled pain pump. There is very little chance this would happen to you!

      The surgery itself was actually lovely! They put my son skin-to-skin with me in the OR and he breastfed right away! I also asked for them to not take him to recovery ahead of me and he and my husband never left my side. I had to make the request because bringing husband and baby to recovery while mom gets stitched up is their normal routine. Also, I asked my doctor to write an order for an abdominal binder and wore it from the day after surgery until 6 weeks postpartum! It was the best thing ever! It made coughing, laughing and getting up and down much easier! I felt very little pain while wearing it! I took my pain meds as directed every few hours until they ran out.

    • An Actual Attorney
      December 6, 2013 at 6:48 pm #

      This may be TMI, but one of the things I loved was that I got a brazillian wax the day before my scheduled c. Plus a pedicure (after clearing it with the doc because they want to see your nails). But then the incision was way under my pubes line, and I didn’t have the scratch of it all growing back after shaving.

      Also my wife and i had our “last meal” the night before, which was lovely and nice to plan.

      • disgusted mom
        December 6, 2013 at 7:09 pm #


        • An Actual Attorney
          December 6, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

          you do know that you have to be shaved at least at the front part for a cs? and that waxing is way better than shaving for stubble? or was it the pedicure that you are so freaked about?

          • Bombshellrisa
            December 6, 2013 at 8:13 pm #

            I never thought about that-I was just going to do my usual brows, upper lip and underarms! Thanks for the tip!
            The pedicure sounds awesome, nothing like having someone rub and pamper your feet (the ones you know are there , um, somewhere under the belly). I have had friends go in to be induced with their hair blown out and full makeup, their post birth pics always look so good

          • An Actual Attorney
            December 6, 2013 at 8:24 pm #

            Yeah, I have to admit, I love pedicures anyway, and while pregnant it was heaven.

          • Dr Kitty
            December 7, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

            I had a facial, mani-pedi, bikini wax, eyebrow threading and massage two days before my CS.

            Apart from the eyebrow threading (which I’m religious about getting done monthly) the others are occasional treats. I don’t really enjoy being touched by strangers, but I have to say I really enjoyed it (apart from the waxing, obviously, but we did that first to get it out of the way).

            It’s nice to have someone do those things for you, and an at home pamper session in late pregnancy from a friend, sister or mum would be lovely if funds don’t stretch to a day at the spa.

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

            I got a toenail fungus from getting a pedicure while pregnant. Apparently it makes you more susceptible?. Took me years to get rid of it. Don’t let them mess with your cuticles if you decide to do it.

          • Bombshellrisa
            December 7, 2013 at 1:34 am #

            Oh I didn’t even think of that! The place near me uses disposable liners in the tubs but it’s the jets that harbor the junk right?

          • Trixie
            December 7, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

            That fungus can be anywhere. All nail salons are basically crawling with it. Put me off pedicures for life.

          • Siri Dennis
            December 7, 2013 at 4:53 am #

            Are you friends with Kate, Duchess of Cambridge?

          • rh1985
            December 6, 2013 at 8:20 pm #

            Oh god now I hope I don’t need a section. I get the absolute worst skin reaction to hair removal in that area. I hope if I do need one they can cut as high as is safe/possible. I want to cry thinking of having that oozing rash from hell around a healing incisicion. Yikes I never knew that before, now I am freaked out….

          • An Actual Attorney
            December 6, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

            I think they can do it higher, but most women don’t want that, I assume. My waxer said the pre-cs wax was pretty common. But if you aren’t planning on one, we’ll all keep our fingers crossed you don’t need an emergency one.

          • rh1985
            December 6, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

            I am not concerned about the scar, I will never wear anything that would show it. Honestly its a bit hard to get perspective with my six month belly but it could probably be over an inch higher above hair line and still be covered by underwear. If I do need one whether emergency or scheduled for medical reason I guess I’ll make the request, explain why, and hope they can do it.

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 8:30 pm #

            They just clip it with an electric trimmer.

          • Susan
            December 6, 2013 at 10:11 pm #

            That’s true I think most research supports clipping instead of shaving to reduce infection.

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 10:29 pm #

            yeah, I’d rather give birth without pain meds again than get waxed. But the pre-cesarean trimming was a non-event in terms of itchiness

          • rh1985
            December 6, 2013 at 10:41 pm #

            clipping doesn’t sound as bad.

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 11:05 pm #

            Yeah, probably not. Also, it’s typical to have some numbness right around the incision anyway, so even if it was slightly irritated, you might not feel it.

            I actually still have partial numbness on my one thigh from my c-section. It’s great for getting pain-free injections!

          • Trixie
            December 6, 2013 at 8:25 pm #

            Different people have different hairlines. Some people’s incisions are totally above that line.

          • An Actual Attorney
            December 6, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

            Good point. I am a bit of a hairy beast.

          • Wren
            December 7, 2013 at 3:45 am #

            Mine is above the hairline. No shaving or waxing required.

      • Siri Dennis
        December 7, 2013 at 4:48 am #

        Yikes – I’d need an epidural to even contemplate waxing. You’re a better woman than me, Gunga Din!

    • Trixie
      December 6, 2013 at 9:50 pm #

      Also, my baby flipped head down very late, so there’s definitely still hope. 🙂

      • Wren
        December 7, 2013 at 3:44 am #

        Mine flipped the other way at term.

      • Young CC Prof
        December 7, 2013 at 11:21 am #

        I think I’ve still got a 50-50 chance IF I get to carry to term. Can’t currently estimate the odds of me carrying to term.

        • batmom
          December 8, 2013 at 4:24 pm #

          bake, baby, bake! Best of luck to both of you.

    • Mindylou
      December 7, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

      I’m in the same boat you are about the c-section, but for different reasons. My baby is head down, estimated to weigh at most only 7lbs give or take if I were able to go full term and would probably have a fairly smooth vaginal delivery, but because of my stubborn partial/marginal previa there is no way around scheduling a c-section. I have seen 8 different doctors in my group since the previa was discovered and they all gave me the options of scheduling between 37 to 39 weeks. Now they are saying that to be on the safe side and avoid bleeding I need to go at 37 weeks…which is hard to deal with considering everything you read on the internet tells you that zomg!!1!! your baby will be a slow reading asthmatic with poor math skillz if he’s born before 39 weeks!!. On the one hand I want to do the safest thing for me and my baby, but I also want him to have the time he needs to properly develop. I have one more appointment in a week and I guess I’ll have to decide on a date to schedule then but I’m still torn on what to do.

      • Young CC Prof
        December 7, 2013 at 12:12 pm #

        Have they considered an amnio to test for lung maturity? Most 37-weekers are well baked, a few still have breathing problems.

        • Mindylou
          December 7, 2013 at 12:27 pm #

          None of the doctors have mentioned any tests for lung maturity. I asked about a potential NICU stay at 37 weeks and they said if he had to go at all it would be because he is a caucasian male, which by default makes him a little weaker when he is born, and that at most he would only have to be there a few hours to a day. His weight shouldn’t be a factor in NICU admission because even though he is on the small side of average, they estimate he should be just over or around 6lbs at 37 weeks. I guess since all the ultrasound results point to him being very healthy they’re not thinking that lung maturity will be an issue. I’ll be sure to bring it up at my next appointment though.

          • Young CC Prof
            December 7, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

            Yeah, I’m probably not getting a baby that big! Mine seems to be growth-restricted, so now I go in every week for tests. (There are a bunch of things that can cause low-weight babies, but there’s also this thing where it happens because the placenta works poorly for no reason at all.) When we pass our tests, I keep carrying one more week.

            Tuesday’s appointment will be 34 weeks, so they might take him at any point, especially if his growth actually stops. If we can make it to 36 weeks, I’m going to be happy. If I get to 38 weeks and 2000 grams (4 pounds 6), I’ll be ecstatic.

            And then of course, he’s still breech. So, I might get an “unnatural birth” hat trick of early scheduled c-section delivery. Oh, the horror! However will we bond?

            Still, babies with this form of growth restriction tend to grow very fast once they are out and eating. They catch up size-wise in a matter of months, and the long term is great.

          • Mindylou
            December 7, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

            Yeah, they originally thought that my baby was growth restricted too, but what confused me is that he’s been in the 30th percentile the entire time. I was under the assumption that they only became concerned if he was 10th or below. I also had low fluid at about 28 weeks (about 6.3cm), so that along with his growth and my placenta had me going for monitoring every week for a month. I managed to chug enough water to get my fluid up to 10.7cm, and luckily he hit a growth spurt and is around 4.5 lbs right now at 34 weeks. They told me at 28 weeks that if it looked like he was still growth restricted they would take him as early as 32 weeks, so I definitely understand your concerns about it. I just had my ultrasound yesterday and while the news was good about his size and the fluid, the previa is the worrisome issue now. I hope your baby hits that growth spurt too and that you are able to carry him as long as possible!

          • Young CC Prof
            December 7, 2013 at 2:42 pm #

            Yay for breaking the 2000 gram milestone! The doctors like that one.

            Low but consistent percentiles usually aren’t such a big deal, unless the percentile is very low indeed. Some babies are just smaller than others, just like some adults are shorter than others.

            What concerned them at my 32-week scan is that at 20 weeks his estimated weight was perfectly average, and now he’s down to 20th percentile, and that his head is average-sized for his age, but his abdominal circumference and femur length are both 6th percentile. Normal head/tiny body and drops in weight percentile are key signs of 3rd trimester growth restriction. Tuesday morning they’ll measure again, and then we’ll see what happens.

            Ironically, the only reason they even did the 32 week scan, the only reason anyone knows he could be at risk, is because I’m asthmatic. If that winds up saving his life, well, that would make quite a story.

      • moto_librarian
        December 9, 2013 at 11:07 am #

        FWIW, my first child was born after SROM at 38 +3, and he spent two days in the NICU due to TTTN. His baby brother was born at 38 + 5, and had no breathing issues. Since you know that you are going to be delivering at early term, ask about getting steroids for lung maturity. I don’t know how commonly this is done for term babies, but an acquaintance delivered at 38 weeks, and she asked for and received steroids when it appeared that she was likely to have her baby before 39 weeks.

        • Mindylou
          December 9, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

          Thanks for that info. I will definitely ask at my next appointment. How long did she receive the steroids before she had her baby? I’ll be 35 weeks at my next appointment and I hope there will be enough time for the steroids to do some good before I have to deliver.

          • moto_librarian
            December 9, 2013 at 4:19 pm #

            They are injected into Mom. Two injections, IIRC, given over the course of 48 hours.

  18. Amy M
    December 6, 2013 at 11:29 am #

    It is ironic. And also true that the original applies to post partum depression. In both cases, the dismissive attitude is insensitive at best, and disgusting and harmful at worst. There’s nothing worse than needing help and then having the people you turn to for help turn on you and make you feel worse. Anyone who does that, especially anyone who does that with malicious intent should be ashamed of her/himself. I realize that many people do NOT have malicious intent when they say those things to depressed or otherwise mentally ill people–usually they do not understand and/or are scared. But in the NCB context, it seems to come across as just plain mean.

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