Attendant crowd sourcing another homebirth disaster in progress

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When will these midwives and doulas learn that the response to a stalled labor is NOT to ask your Facebook friends? The correct response is to TAKE THE PATIENT TO THE HOSPITAL!

I’ve been alerted to another potential homebirth disaster in progress posted on the Birth Professionals International Facebook page.

homebirth in progress 4-6-14 1

Apparently this mother has been in labor for FOUR DAYS!

The suggestions range from the moronic to the criminally stupid, including:

homebirth in progress 4-6-14 2

This:

homebirth in progress 4-6-14 3

And this:

homebirth in progress 4-6-14 4

Even with such shamefully negligent care, it is still possible this will work out okay, but the chances will be dramatically increased if they go to the hospital now. Let’s hope someone alerts them to this and that they do the right thing.

  • attitude devant

    Small confession: I thought her last name was Hartley and kept thinking of Nina. Guess that dates me, huh?

  • sdsures

    That last screencap gives me the chills. At the time, baby wasn’t out, but oooh, let’s all make sure NIRVANA is pampered!

  • Delawaremamma

    I guess we’re doing self affirmations today.

    • Hannah

      Lady, you do not go to a synagogue. You go to a church that is confused about how monotheism works. Lunacy layered with lunacy.

  • Comrade X

    Doula Nirvana just blocked me on FB, even though all my messages to her were super-nice and super-polite. I hope nobody else from the group was sending her abusive messages. She also completely refused to tell me if everyone was all right. All in all, very disturbing.

    • anne

      I feel that if everything were ok she would say so, given the heat she’s taking, along with some nursery rhyme about how four days of labor is empowering and normal. : /

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      I suspect that everything is not all right and the truth can’t be hidden for ever.

      • Delawaremamma

        I guess we’re doing self affirmations today

      • Comrade X

        I have a horrible feeling that you are right, although of course I am hoping and praying that you are wrong.

  • I know people keep asking this, but any word on baby and mama?

    • Anj Fabian

      No. Nothing.

  • Navelgazing Midwife has posted a simple post plus some uterine rupture stories—talk about graphic! Her message: if you need advice, transfer!

  • Lombardi

    So any new news?

  • Tamara

    hahahaha! Wicked Witch of the West changed her profile pic

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I thought she was in Chicago, so how does that make her the WWoW?

      Besides, calling her the WWW gives her the opportunity to present herself as the poor, misunderstood victim (a la Wicked). Can we find a title that is better universally evil? How about Maleficent? (although I don’t know how she is going to be portrayed in the new movie, I don’t think it is flattering)

      • Tamara

        She was green in her picture… like WWofW in Oz 😉 But I’m good with whatever!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Add in the fact that the WWW in Oz the Great and Powerful was the awesome Mila Kunas, and it’s another good reason to avoid the connotation.

  • madwife

    If only she could eat her placenta to help her contract more efficiently

  • theadequatemother

    FYI transfer early in obstructed labour = family friendly cs. One Iv, spinal, dad in the room. Easy peasy. APGARs of 8 and 9 or 9 and 9. I take pictures with parents and infant. Everyone cuddles. Baby (generally) stays with mom in recovery for more cuddles and breastfeeding if desired.

    transfer late in obstructed labour (say oh, 4 days) = sh*t show cs. Two very large IVs + an arterial line. Blood in the room or the OR fridge. extra nurses. Anesthesia assistant. Dad likely asked to leave as soon as baby is out or not allowed in the room at all bc of likely complications or because we deem it better to start with GA. APGARS of 6ish. Neonatal resusc. Hemorrhage. rapid infuser. conversion to GA if under spinal. 24-48 hours in the ICU, sedated and ventilated. Baby in nursery. Early moments missed. No birth pictures.

    • Allie P

      And in the early one, the nutjobs term it “unnecessary.” It’s “unnecessary” to them unless the baby comes out dying. If the baby comes out fine, that’s somehow a problem.

      • Karen in SC

        Yet another of the examples of the irony in today’s version of midwifery.

    • prolifefeminist

      ^ and this is the best case scenario where no one dies.

  • Empliau

    OT: In a discussion a while ago, I think Bofa mentioned that aspartame was problematic. I hate diet drinks myself, but I have a daughter turning 14 who’s been questioning me for years why her cousins get diet Coke but she doesn’t. I have a dread that diet sodas will gradually become features of her life. I’d really appreciate knowing more if he can give me some info that’s not too much trouble.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I never said anything about aspartame being problematic, that’s for sure.

      • Empliau

        Ah. Undoubtedly I misread something. It’s like e-mail – tone can be hard to understand. Thanks for clearing that up. Don’t sue me, Big Diet Soda!

      • Empliau

        On the vitamin K discussion, you posted this: (sorry for the lack of blockquotes, but formatting is not my skill:)

        aspartame is bad…

        Too much caffeine is probably not a good idea, but compared to something like coffee, Coke doesn’t have a lot. Two liters of Diet Coke vs say two Starbucks coffees? Of course, 2 L is a lot.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You must be misquoting something, because I would never state that aspartame is bad for anyone.

          • Empliau

            My guess is that you quoted someone else’s comment on aspartame, then added your own comment about caffeine, and I misunderstood. Threads get out of sequence easily.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Possibly, but it could also be in the context of pku, as noted above. That’s very possible. That only applies to someone having PKU though

          • Empliau

            I get bad headaches after Diet Coke (although only two, since I stopped after the second). I’ve always wondered if aspartame is bad for (some) migraineurs.

          • anion

            Artificial sweeteners give me migraines, as well. We don’t allow our kids to have them at all for that reason–if I’m sensitive to them, so might the kids be, is the theory–and honestly, I don’t think that A) artificial sweeteners are good for you, given the studies they’ve done about satiety and insulin etc., and B) we’re depriving them of anything by not allowing them to have diet drinks/snacks. They get the full-calorie versions in moderation, and I’m perfectly happy and comfortable with that.

          • Lion

            I get migraines too and have wondered the same. What seems to trigger mine is bright sunlight.

          • VeritasLiberat

            Maybe you meant bad in the sense of “tastes like crap.”

    • Siri

      If that’s your worst dread then you’re not doing too badly…

      • Empliau

        If I have a superpower, it’s the ability to dread too many things at the same time.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Aspartame is bad for people who have PKU since it contains phenylalanine. You’d know if your daughter had PKU though.

      I remember there being some concern that aspartame might block the satiety centers in a way that created a continued craving for sweets, but I don’t know if that turned out to be real or not. Fourteen is plenty old enough to look up data and draw one’s own conclusions, so I would propose looking at the evidence with your daughter and drawing conclusions and a plan together. (This is also a sneaky way to get her thinking about food safety and judgements instead of just the rules.)

    • theadequatemother

      If you are looking for an alternative to diet soda, can I suggest a soda stream? You can carbonate your own drinks and come up with all kinds of delicious low calorie alternatives. Plus it’s super fun.

      Diet coke had a certain cachet for teen girls tho. Caffeine. No calories. Heavily marketed and tied into the unattainable body type of models and a list Hollywood actresses. Remember that commercial in the 90s with all the hot sweaty supermodels stuck at a midamerica gas station who were saved by a diet coke in a vending machine?

      It’s an uphill battle.

      • Hannah

        Yes. I adore my SodaStream. I find the syrups kind of revolting but put some pineapple juice and mint in the sparkly water and you have the best drink ever and it worked out way cheaper than my Pellegrino addiction, haha.

        I lived on Diet Coke and then Coke Zero for years. Did fabulous things for my metabolism *groans*

    • Durango

      I feel like banning something relatively harmless like Diet Coke tends to backfire. We rarely have soda in the house, my teens like it, but it’s simply not an issue. What they buy on their own is up to them. If we’re out in the world and they want a coke, it’s fine. My son (as a high schooler) wanted to drink coffee for a while so we brewed extra for him and after a few months he decided he really didn’t like it and stopped drinking it.

      • Empliau

        Well, her cousins were drinking it when she was six, that’s when it all started. I’d rather she not develop the habit, but I wouldn’t call it a ban.

  • anne

    If Gavin Michael’s family is reading here I just wanted to say that we are thinking of you. Watching another baby’s fate being crowdsourced must be very painful.

  • Moderation

    Just saw her latest post. Wow!

  • melindasue22

    I can’t find the post. I think she deleted it.

  • Amy

    In my entire professional career, I have crowdsourced exactly one issue. I’m a math teacher, and one of the problems in the book was to find the integral of x cubed times e to the x, all over x squared plus 1. Turns out there’s no real solution (and it wasn’t a complex analysis class)– it was a typo.

    The biggest difference, of course, is that in 15 years this has happened exactly ONCE, and nobody was in danger of so much as a hangnail

  • Gagarin

    I just believe that if you have to ask Facebook, and you’re supposed to be a paid expert, then you really don’t know what the fuck you’re doing. Call me old fashioned.

    • Captain Obvious

      I have a gouge in the sidewall of my tire. I googled it for advice. The best comment on a tire blog was this… “Get it seen to by a professional, blowout = wheee, splat, ribs, guts.” Even gear heads know not to crowd source advice, go to the experts.

      • madwife

        My sister once had a flat tyre. She tweeted about her misfortune. And out of the blue. A tyre company rocked up roadside. .. and fixed it for free..
        As long as she tweeted about it. To her 5000 followers. … That was kind of cool.
        Clearly not the same as asking for medical advice. . But cool..

        • Gagarin

          That’s awesome! Thank god the tire company didn’t crowd source the best way to get the tire on the rim, though. And wow… 5000 followers???

          • anion

            I have almost 7k. Depending on what you do for a living, it’s really not that many.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The best way to get the tire on the rim…that would be flammable gas and a lighter, right? I saw someone do it that way on Youtube once and it worked great.

  • CPM’s – bringing care you could expect in the 1700’s to a mom near you!

  • MaineJen

    Sick. Sick. Sick. These people really and truly are playing games with someone’s life. Here they are, pretending that “Well, all we can do is sit back and watch, maybe try exposing the mom to some different SMELLS or feeding her some herbs, and have her lie on her side. Maybe I’ll *even* go so far as to do a pelvic exam. But there’s nothing else that I could possibly, possibly think of doing…” Really? Nothing? In the US, in 2014? Nothing you can do to help a woman with obstructed labor? How about….oh gee, I know this is going to sound crazy, but…how about Going To The Freaking Hospital? How about availing yourself of some technology that millions of women around the world would kill to have access to? No. No, that would just be crazy, right? I’m not even going to address the suggestion that the midwife go out to lunch, leaving the poor mom alone to “go to sleep.” I just…can’t even.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      What is worse: the responses she got, or the fact that she actually asked the question in the first place?

      Crowdsourcing an emergent situation?

  • Wow, what a bunch of horrible haters this board is. Worrying so much that we’re losing sleep, praying, begging for updates about a stranger and her baby, desperately hoping they’re alive and safe. I don’t know how we live with ourselves.

    • Jessica S.

      I know, we’re just terrible. Who do we think we are, caring about people?

  • sdsures

    Any more updates?

    • Trulyunbelievable2020

      Nirvana Harley posted this on her Facebook page two hours ago: “How many births can I attend in the shortest time possible? Guess we will find out… LOL”

      To which wise woman and ginger bread house resident Barbara Covington responded: “Three in one day is my absolute limit.”

      I don’t know if that tells us anything at all. So, no– no updates

      • Amy M

        Well yeah, she can’t attend too many more, because there won’t be time for lunch.

        • Oh sure there is, she can always leave in the middle for some self care.

        • anne

          My doula left the hospital and got herself lunch. She ate and read magazines and ignored me after I got the epidural. She also wouldn’t answer my questions about breastfeeding or visit me after I had my baby like she was supposed to do.

          Thank god DH talked me out of a homebirth and I was in a real hospital with real attendants and lactation consultants.

          • Amy M

            The like was for your DH and hospital birth, not the jerk doula who clearly was punishing you for choosing pain relief. Did you throw her out? I just don’t get that sort of thing at all…what’s it to her whether you get pain relief or not? What a sadist.

          • anne

            I didn’t throw her out. I was getting plenty of help from everyone else. It wasn’t until after I was having such difficulty breastfeeding and she ignored my calls and didn’t show up for the visit that I realized that she didn’t care.

            The first doula I hired from this organization stopped contacting me halfway through my pregnancy. Eventually I contacted the agency and they said she had quit but hadn’t contacted any of her clients. So there were plenty of warning signs that this wasn’t professional.

          • k_cayte

            So much for doulas supposedly being “judgment free”

          • Young CC Prof

            They are judgement-free as long as you make choices they approve of.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Are they really expected to be “judgement free” outside of the idealized model? I know there are some that aren’t (Bofa’s Law), but I have to figure, I pretty much expect doulas to be very judgmental.

          • k_cayte

            When I was looking into labor support with my first pregnancy, all the doula websites I read were about “helping moms make the decisions that are best for you”/”judgment free”/etc. We did hire a doula, and maybe we got lucky because she’d had an epidural for her son’s birth and she was totally awesome during both of my births, and I got epidurals with both of them.

          • Amy

            Mine was definitely judgment free. In fact, with my first, she was the one talking me down from the crunchy ideal, and even the language she used to do that was, “Well, in my experience I’ve found that the best thing you can do is expect the unexpected and not rule anything out.” My second was a c-section and my husband was banned from the OR because he was sick, so she came in with me and took pictures, which

            both my husband and I are really grateful for. She went on and on about how her job was to be there for me as an extra set of hands for a massage or gofer, and to support my decisions.

          • lawyer jane

            My doula was great too, no judgment about my epidural. I screened all the doulas I interviewed to make sure that they would be OK with an epidural if I chose that. But there definitely are some nutso ones out there, including one in my area who started the legal defense fund for Karen Carr. This doula is highly regarded on the “mommy blogs.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But jane, you admit that you had to screen them to make sure you found one that would be OK with you choosing an epidural.

            That right there pretty much shows what I am talking about. You knew that “judgement free” could not be expected, and you had to go out and screen them to make sure you found it.

            As I said, there are some who aren’t judgmental, but your random doula out of a hat, you pretty much expect them to be.

          • Amy

            Oh, absolutely! Some of them are truly just birth junkies who seem to forget the whole point of hiring a doula is for extra SUPPORT during labor.

          • Lion

            Mine was very crunchy, but when I asked for an epidural and the nurse refused to phone the anaesthetist saying he would shout at her as it was two in the morning, the doula said she would phone him herself. She gave the nurse a mouthful too. She then helped me get through my unintentionally drug free birth. Maybe it is different in the country I live in, but doulas even attend planned c-sections and support mom and dad, they usually aren’t in theatre, but are with mom before and after. We can’t get lactation support in hospitals as very few have anyone on staff to help who actually knows anything. I chuckle at the information I see here about lactivists, as that is what ours nurses tell us.

          • RebeccainCanada

            Well Evelyn Mulhahn is a doula now! She’s not judgement free. Well at least she can’t act as a midwife any longer. Doulas tend to be birth junkies and don’t want to bother if you don’t do it their way.

          • Not necessarily. I interviewed a doula for my first pregnancy. I thought she was too crunchy but we lost that baby and she was really kind, offering to come to the birth free. This was 2009…and her name was Derby Partner.

          • MLE

            Oh Em Gee!

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          In Harley’s defense, I didn’t see any particular evidence that she took the advice to leave her obstructed laboring patient and go out to lunch.

      • Babz Covington

        oh hey i was alerted to this use of my words and feel i simply must clear up your picking and choosing of quotes, you should probably know here i was talking about the lambing and kidding that is happening and how im stuck out in the barn and needed the break of my husband coming down to take over for a few hours … lol read a little more closely ladies lol lol lol

        • Anj Fabian

          If you practice animal husbandry, can you educate us on the mortality/morbidity rate for lambing and kidding? Do ewes or does have the highest maternal mortality? Which species has uterine prolapse most often? How many bottle kids and bottle lambs do you have every year?

          How often does trusting birth fail on your farm?

          • Babz Covington

            lambs are tough , sometimes their moms just totally lose interest.the more pure the breed the tougher it seems to get , the goats do a lot better, nubians are good at just about everything including birth , they’re just so needy company wise. just one denied a kid but i had had to mess with her while she was birthing ,twins presenting at the same times. so i disrupted the”flow”. sheep are not so bright and it is a fault of theirs to put their front feet up on something and stand around looking and prolapse even non pregnant. we reintroduce most kids and lambs to other mothers . and we sub out bottle babies to interested people. and we cull rather heartlessly according to some.we lost no ewes or does or kids or lambs , so far.but there cant be carmel lamb capes ,without the lambs. so to speak .

      • sdsures

        Tells me she’s insanely irresponsible.

      • sdsures

        Ugh.

  • attitude devant

    Just shocked that part of the advice was to LEAVE her. LEAVE her alone without ANY monitoring. Vile self-absorbed hobbyists.

    • Deena Chamlee

      I am not, we know what we are dealing with and narcissism is part of the package

    • anne

      I think I prefer the term birth junkies. It encompasses the recklessness they exhibit in pursuit of their high. : (

    • MLE

      Fight or flight…and flight is easier. Then you can get centered and rationalize away any fears while wishing for a good outcome. Plus it puts the burden on mom to fix her situation while you’re away. In fact, as I am sure others have mentioned, leaving her implies that the mom needs to straighten up and fly right in the first place and they wouldn’t have to leave if she hadn’t gotten herself into this pickle.

  • anonymous

    Any updates on this

  • onandoff

    OT, but I’m so relieved I have to share. My friend attempting a HBAC with twins had her babies yesterday at 40+5. Everyone is alive and healthy. They transferred to the hospital for baby #2 so I know they are being monitored for another day at least. Thank the good lord things usually turn out OK, because if this wasn’t a clusterfuck of complications (and I haven’t even listed all the reasons why because, you know, postdates twin HBAC is pretty sufficient), I don’t know what is.

    • attitude devant

      I’m so glad they went in. I just keep thinking of poor Tully Kavanagh’s mother, who not only lost her son, when the placenta separated after Baby A was born at home but almost exsanguinated.

      • Karen in SC

        Dreah (who writes Midwife from Hell) also lost a second twin, and I think if we totaled up the twin losses Dr. Amy has written about it would be eye-opening.

  • Allie P

    The only thing that gives me peace about my friend’s upcoming birth is that she’s doing it in the hospital where at least SOMEONE will be able to step in if things go haywire, as every word out of her mouth is doula-instigated woo about what she eats and how she stands and how her birth will go if she just trusts her doula and hypnotizes herself hard enough. Her baby was breech so she literally didn’t walk for several weeks so “the baby wouldn’t settle into that position” and apparently stood on her head for hours at a time with frozen peas to get it to flip. you know what worked? An ECV. She talks to me about it and I just nod and bite my tongue because I can’t believe she’s saying these things with a straight face. I pray she is not led astray by her insane doula once at the hospital.

  • RationalOB

    As an Obstetrician this case horrifies me and makes me incredibly sad.
    If I went to lunch while attending a woman with a clearly obstructed labor I would likely lose my job, hospital privledges and possibly my medical liscence.

    I have had the privilege to work with obstetricians who periodically travel to Africa to help repair fistulas (holes between the bladder or rectum and vagina) due to prolonged and obstructed labours. This occurs to women without readily available access to trained birth attendants and cesarean sections.

    To hear that similar situations occurring in the US is abhorrent.
    That these unskilled people feel compelled to seek answers on Facebook……there really are no words to describe my and most other Obstetricians opinions. At least not what I would post on a public forum.

    I only hope the mother and baby are well. And Dr Amy’s efforts will help prevent this from happening again.

  • Comrade X

    Does anybody have an update on this situation? I am hoping and praying that mother and baby are both alive and well.

    • BroccoliSoupTown

      I was just about to ask the same thing. I hope it’s not another case where the baby dies but it’s never announced, where the midwives and the mom just quietly delete everything and stay off social media for a long time to avoid any questioning. That sort of thing happens regularly on MDC and I feel it disrespects the memory of the baby, prevents alerting others of the dangers of homebirth, and leaves everyone who cares about the baby in a difficult state of emotional limbo.
      I think I heard last night that the baby was born, but there was no word about the condition of the mom or baby. After such a long and difficult labor, the best we can probably hope for is that the baby is recovering in a NICU. I sure hope a tragedy was ultimately avoided, though.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        I’m surprised by the curious lack of detail, gloating, etc. I wonder what really happened. The baby apparently arrived shortly after they learned that the crow sourcing was public.

        • T.

          The lack of gloating may means that the baby (or the mother) is not fine.
          Lets hope not.

          • Lombardi

            Yes, I agree. No gloating means something has gone very wrong. I will say I have been very worried about this momma and babe ever since reading this post. I hate to think of someone being hurt and not getting the help they need. Makes me sick to my stomach. I mentioned this to my friend what was far more cynical about it than me.

            “I know you wouldn’t give an ounce of sympathy to a mother drunk driver who injured or killed her children. Why get upset over some idiot that for you only exists on the Internet? She made her choice. One or Two less idiots in the world as far as I am concerned.”

            I don’t even know how to respond to that. I feel it is important to advocate against woo because people are harmed by it. What do you say to a person who sees HB as woo but considers it a kind of social Darwinism?

          • Stenvenywrites

            I’d agree if not for the child. The mother has every right to hire a couple of gorillas to attend her, for all the fool that makes her. I have no objection to letting natural selection doing its job on her. The child, the one more likely to die in this circumstance, and if her mothers ignorance kills we have no evidence that shes less worthy of survival, and not just a random victim of nature.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The mother has every right to hire a couple of gorillas to attend her

            That might be less dangerous as at least the gorillas won’t try to talk her out of calling 911 and probably won’t take her cell phone away when she decides to call despite their advice.

          • Young CC Prof

            As we now know, actual gorillas do not object to c-sections, nor do they find that labor interventions interfere with the bonding process.

          • Burgundy

            and they are very cute together in person too.

          • Young CC Prof

            You saw them in person? That’s awesome!

          • Burgundy

            We have the SD zoo annual pass, of course we gotta go see them 🙂

          • I’ve had this debate with my husband before. It took a while to get him to see the doublespeak and cult think that leads women to this choice. I have the advantage with him because he knows my cult history and so I can compare it. It’s easier too if the person is not antivax, because there’s some parallels (keeping silent = dead innocents).

            It isn’t like drunk driving, because nobody is creating a cult to worship that and abuse and silence survivors and sober drivers.

          • Karen in SC

            Imagining if there was a cult worshiping drunk driving — sounds like an idea for a blog post, Kumquat. 🙂

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            What do you say to a person who sees HB as woo but considers it a kind of social Darwinism?

            Crazy ideas aren’t inherited genetically.

        • Comrade X

          Oh G-d, I hope everyone’s OK.

        • Suspicious timing, especially with so few details.

  • expat

    OT, but relevant to overcoming cognitive bias. Some evidence suggests that when the message comes from someone sympethetic, it breaks through more often than evidence from authority. Not that I think Dr Amy should change her style, it just seems to show that outreach from trusted friends is the most effective method.. even if the trusted friends are Dr. Amy fans. http://www.vox.com/2014/4/6/5556462/brain-dead-how-politics-makes-us-stupid

    • Deena Chamlee

      link did not work. Is there another?

    • This study says otherwise (link is to an article, not the study itself) http://m.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/vaccine-denial-psychology-backfire-effect

      • expat

        Actually, I think it says the same thing. Regardless of the form in which the pediatrician gave I formation to the antivax parents, nothing worked. The other article makes the same argument, with a brief caveat that if the concern comes from a peer instead of an authority, it makes it through.

    • Young CC Prof

      Most of my online persona is built around this fact. Not the aspects I show here, though. Well, actually I am sometimes nice here, to guests who want to actually ask questions rather than show off their brilliance and then flounce. But yeah, I’ve found that the natural-health arena has a lot of borderline folks, ones who buy it a little but aren’t in the religion of it, and there ARE ways to reach them.

      Strangely enough, none of them involve statistics and many involve personal anecdotes. Humans are so irrational.

    • Cold Steel

      I have been so lucky to have a similar experience. I have a friend whose entire raison d’etre was to become a homebirth midwife. She was deep, deep, deep into the woo (even completing a midwifery assistantship with Ina May herself). Over the course of a year we’ve had careful, statistically-grounded conversations. She’s bright and open-minded and has come to be very troubled by the callous disregard for complications in the NCB movement. In fact I got her to apply to nursing school to become a CNM instead, and I read her admissions essay which was all about her disenchantment with the lack of knowledge and wisdom in the homebirth crowd, and the cavalier way they dismiss threats to the baby. If I were a random voice on the internet, I highly doubt it would have been effective.

      And it goes without saying that a great deal of the evidence and arguments I borrowed from Dr Tuteur!

  • Dr Kitty

    After 4 days (!) of labour if baby starts “backing up” and cervix stops dilating you have to think RUPTURE and act accordingly.

    What is wrong with these people!
    I hope the baby and mum are Ok.

    • Karen in SC

      I read the “explanation” about backing up and turning the “right way”. Is that a medically sound description? Have any of the OBs or CNMs here observed this before?

      • Karen in SC

        Just tried to look up that position (tilted head) on google. Nothing but woo sites and wikipedia. According to wikipedia, patience is key and a good midwife or OB can position the mother to handle this. Forceps if not successful. From fast skim of woo sites – epidurals are blamed for this and c-sections are recommended unnecessarily of course.

        • Dr Kitty

          You *might* get an asynclitic head to straighten if baby moves the head slightly. OT *might* go OA or OP.

          After 96 hrs of labour and at 9-10cm a baby would be wedged deep into the pelvis, being squeezed hard every 2-3 minutes.
          They CAN’T spontaneously reverse, never mind swivel 180.
          Maybe in early labour, maybe if not fully engaged in the pelvis…but I don’t really believe the story as told.

          • Young CC Prof

            I’m kind of hoping that they did transfer to the hospital, sent for immediate c-section, and that’s why no details were provided.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            That would make sense.

        • Guest

          My asynclitic baby was turned and delivered with a vacuum in a few contractions. I always wanted to high-five that OB.

          Initially I labored in a birth center, but transferred after a few hours (not DAYS) of stalled labor. I’m so glad my midwife made that call. Especially after seeing this, I just think how that could have been me. We did try to get baby to turn prior to transfer by rocking on a birth ball and going up and down stairs (which made me miserable and didn’t work).

          • Amy M

            yeah, they got mine out with a vacuum as well. He had an odd looking conehead for a day or two (just one side of his head), but he was fine. He got kind of jammed in that position because his twin was on top of him preventing him from moving much.

        • Dunno what “tilted head” means either. If the head is sufficiently deflexed to be in the “military”position, or worse, a brow presentation, that baby is going nowhere without a C/S. The diameters of the fetal skull cannot pass even the largest pelvis

          • Karen in SC

            I put “tilted head” since I didn’t want to misspell asynclitic. My bad.

      • It certainly isn’t any sort of precise medical terminology that I am familiar with.

        Further, any labor which has really been in progress for 4 days is not only obstructed, but there is almost uterine atony by this time, which has a variety of catastrophic consquences. Even granny midwves of 200years ago knew that “the sun should not set twice on a laboring woman”. My guess is, however, that this woman has not been in actual active labor for anywhere as long as that, but is counting from the onset of prodromal labor or even painful Braxton-Hicks.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          4 sunsets is just a variation of normal.

  • birthbuddy

    I challenge anyone to tell me that these people aren’t just batshit crazy.
    The thing to remember is that this sort of thing is happening every single day in NCB land.

  • T.

    Doesn’t such a long labour rise the possibility of fistula? And how likely are those buffon to make some immediate necessary repair in case?

    I mean even if baby is out and well (I sure hope so) this doesn’t mean the mother is out of the wood yet.

    • fiftyfifty1

      No, not a fistula. Fistula is from a prolonged second stage (pushing stage) when baby is lodged in the vagina. Sounds like this labor got stuck in the first stage.

      • T.

        Better for the mother 🙂
        So prolonged first stage doesn’t carry long-reaching conseguences of the same kind?

        • fiftyfifty1

          Exactly! It caries other, different, life threatening consequences but not obstetric fistula.

      • Just the words “lodged in the vagina” should make any woman shudder.

  • Bombshellrisa

    “What have you done for you?” How do these midwives always manage to make it all about THEM and their needs all the time?

    • Deena Chamlee

      narcissistic so yes. beyond their ability to change unfortunately.

    • Elaine

      To be entirely fair, I think there is often a culture of ignoring self-care among healthcare providers. Certainly among the people I work with (retail pharmacists), it seems to be the norm to avoid bathroom breaks as long as possible and live on cheap crappy food bought from the store where we work. I swim against the current by actually drinking water while at work and bringing healthy food. I wouldn’t favor a midwife leaving an actively laboring mom with no attendant, but I don’t think it would be bad for her to send someone to get her a snack. Of course, the wrong in this situation goes way beyond that, but the fact that her friends are reminding her of the importance of self-care isn’t the problem I see in this situation.

      • Bombshellrisa

        I agree-I am a nurse and I see my coworkers doing the same thing. Although when we talk about self care, that needs to take place primarily outside of your working hours. No matter how stressful, when you are working, your time belongs to your patients. A midwife or doula should know to have a birth bag with snacks and a water bottle. If they are going to allow labors to continue for four days and insist on attending them, they have to take responsibility for what that entails and have their own resources like change of clothes, snacks and water.

  • Hurricanewarningdc

    The midwives should be flogged in the town square (or at least via
    social media)… but the mother and father? How does one agree to this?
    How does one choose to risk their baby’s life with such amateurs?
    Horrific. If the baby arrived with no complications, they’ll all pat
    themselves on the back for their playground-worthy story and encourage
    others to do it again, completely failing to recognize the dangerous
    outcomes that they narrowly missed. (hurricanewarningdc)

    • staceyjw

      They simply do not know. these MWs talk a good game. I interviewed some just to see what garbage they wefe spewing, and found most to come across like solid, caring, professionals, even when I knew they were lying or danagerous. Some moms are as crazy as the MW is, or dedicated to HB for some religious reason, but generally they simply think they are hiring a orofessiognal. Too many are sgate licensed, and have great references, their disasters hidden, or waiting to hapoen.

      The last story I heard like this ended in a dead baby.

      • attitude devant

        Wait. Weren’t you a TOLAC? What did they say about HBAC?

  • Thankfulmom

    Poor little baby, what a horrible birth experience for him or her. No one likes to see their baby suffering. It broke my heart to see my little preemie with an IV, on oxygen, and all wired up for monitoring. I hope this little baby doesn’t suffer from brain damage or have a long complicated nicu stay.

    I saw the blog post title and thought “Oh no! Not another one.”

    Back in the 1800’s, there probably wouldn’t be much choice and the midwives would be praying, not thinking about a lunch break. I seriously doubt the midwives back then blithely thought some babies were simply mean to die. I’m sure they grieved for those mothers and their babies. They knew they had limitations and could ony do so much. Why people want to have an 1800’s style birth with all the risks when we have so much more in 2014 is beyond me.

    I had a highly monitored labor since I had preeclampsia and my baby was pre-term. It was all worth it though. My 2 yo entertains me daily with her smiles, silliness, and hugs. So very thankful for modern medicine and expert mfm doctors!

    • Hurricanewarningdc

      And the mother is probably skipping the vitamin k shot b/c of “pain to the infant.” She probably picked a pool in her living room because of a wish to minimize shock to the baby on entry to this world. She probably played soft music and tried not to scream so not to distress the child. Yet 4 days of labor and birth that could just as easily ended up with the child’s death was AOK in that regard. Trust birth, my arse…

  • NursingRN

    I actually thought this was a farce. “Nirvana” “Herbs and Oils” “TENS unit”. Really? No, really for realsies?
    Well, Nirvana, here’s what I would suggest- I suggest first you call 911 and get this laboring mom to the hospital, because I think things might not be going the way you want them to go. THEN, you MIGHT want to consider hiring a lawyer, in the event the baby dies, and Gaia momma is P.O’ed at you. But hey, if the baby is born alive, then by all means do your happy dance.

    • k_cayte

      Hey now, don’t knock the TENS unit. I used one during my first stage of labor when my daughter was born a few weeks ago in a hospital. It was awesome.

      I can’t imagine using one would be effective after 96 hours of labor, though. There’s definitely a limit to how strong of a contraction they can block.

  • anne

    Praying for the baby and mom.

  • MamaBear

    Go to lunch?! Are you freaking kidding me? I wonder what the advice would have been if the baby’s head was stuck, rent a movie on Netflix and the head will come on its own? I’m not even in the medical field, and that makes violently angry. I can only imagine what the doctors, CNM, and nurses must be feeling right.

    • anne

      It’s scary that they don’t know how ridiculous and irresponsible they sound.

    • Sue

      Can you imagine a complex, prolonged resuscitation, where additional advice is sought, and the consultant comes back with ”but what have you done for YOU? Have you gone out for lunch?”

    • Ob in OZ

      I have often said eating and sleeping are luxuries. Please tell me these people, including the original post, are related to an April fools joke.

  • Deena Chamlee

    This is unacceptable. Period end of story, It is like a nightmare that will not stop. Someone needs to address this with ACNM fellows. It cannot go on.

  • Becky05

    Holy Shit, that Sherri Holly. I was in a group with her and called her out for claiming 3500 births, when in a blog post from only a year or two earlier she claimed 2500. Also, the homebirths she supposedly did in Alaska don’t show up in the officially published counts for the state. She equivocated. Now she’s claiming 4000 births. What a liar.

    • Trixie

      You should read her FB page — chemtrail, fluoride, Bill Gates’ plot to block out the sun, it’s like woonatic bingo.

      • Mishimoo

        And no surprise, but she’s friends with Jan Tritten.

    • Lizz

      Maybe she’s one of those consult by skype people or counting these ‘web consults’ every time she posts? Or maybe she’s using binoculars? Because while I couldn’t find really recent stats a 1000 births is about third of all the vaginal births in Anchorage is 2009.
      Holy crap what kind of a woman brags about doing home births with 4lb babies and TOLACs with vertical incision?

  • areawomanpdx

    latest update

    • Comrade X

      Does that mean the baby’s out now, or what?

      • Anj Fabian

        Don’t think so. They would have said.

        If it happened at home, there would be some great congratulatory blurb about mom was awesome, trust birth, babies know, it was a really tough labor but we did it. Tadah!

        If baby is out but things are still very shaky, it’s usually a terse “Baby is here, everyone is okay.” message.

        • Anj Fabian

          So the message is the terse version.

          The situation is post partum, but no one is breaking out the champagne just yet.

          • Young CC Prof

            Thank God for that. Hopefully mom and baby are getting examined by a doctor, maybe getting antibiotics, etc.

          • T.

            I am a complete layperson, but don’t such a long labour carry a risk of fistula for the mother?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I’m not an OB but yes, it’s my understanding that it can. Though that fistulas are rarely seen in the US due to prolonged labor because we don’t usually let it go that long.

        • Anj Fabian

          Notice how they are congratulating each other.

          Yay…them?

      • areawomanpdx

        yes, baby is here

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Alive? Healthy? Are there any details yet?

        • Trixie

          What did Angela Horn call?

          • areawomanpdx

            here is farther up the thread

          • Bombshellrisa

            Oh what a good idea-ask the woman what is bothering her and do a vow renewal. Yeah, that will work.

          • Young CC Prof

            That’s not the first time I’ve heard that business.

          • Petanque

            “Birth works or it doesn’t” – well that’s helpful!

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            “What about asking her if anything is bothering her? In ‘Birth Matters’ she tells a story of a woman who was upset with her husband’s vows so they did a small ceremony and almost as soon as it was done she had the baby.”

            Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It sounds like the old Cheech & Chong routine where the car won’t start, and Chong asks, “Have you changed the air in the tires lately?”

            OT: So sad that John Pinette passed away 🙁 Because of John Pinette, my wife and I still call Nyquil the “the sneezing sniffling coughing achy head fever how the hell did I wind up on my kitchen floor medicine”

          • Sad to hear John Pinnett passed, he was a good comic. But that line is from Lewis Black.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            There are claims it is Denis Leary, but it originated with John Pinette.

          • You are correct and I was wrong. I double checked, and Lewis Black said nyquil is the moonshine of medicine and the only thing that tastes like “red” or “green.” Leary has a similar routine too, but you’re right, the kitchen floor line is John Pinnette.

            Hey, look how easy it is to say, “oops, I was wrong.” 🙂

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Another reason I loved John Pinette is that he was a huge Wizard of Oz fan (his favorite movie, too), and made a lot of great (but subtle) pop culture references (that he often had to explain to audiences who missed them). That’s everything I could want.

            I saw him perform in 2009.

          • stenvenywrites

            She’s been laboring for days and you really have to ask if anything is bothering her? Plenty would be bothering me, in that predicament, and my wedding vows wouldn’t make the top 50.

          • Comrade X

            I can’t seem to even find that funny. I’m so horrified that anybody can think like this that it’s kind of making me feel cold in the pit of my stomach.

          • Hilarious if it’s only theoretical. Nauseating in real time.

        • Tamara

          “Wicked cool”
          From someone that looks like the Fucking Wicked Witch of the West

        • Shang Tsung

          Well hooray the baby is out and hopefully no one is too hurt by this…. but I’m still wary until we hear about its status.

    • Tamara

      “Birth works or it doesn’t”
      To me that translates as… “when it doesn’t, oh well”

  • Ash

    I hope someone continues taking screenshots, including the evidence that her labor has continued for 4 days. I think it’s true that there are some people who say “homebirth is safe, cascades of intervention, babies die in hospitals too” but find the idea of laboring for 4 days at home to be 100% insane.

    Also, here is Nirvana H’s “doulamatch” page. 3 years and 20 births attended.

    • Comrade X

      I think people are taking screenshots. I have PMed the birth attendant, although she has not read my message. Several people are attempting to contact the police and emergency services to request a welfare check. Others are attempting to contact the birth attendant on her cell phone. We’re doing everything we can.

    • AmyP

      Exactly. Most normal people think 24 hours is huge for labor.

  • Jessica S.

    Amanda Schnarr says to talk to the baby. Let me venture a guess what that baby might say: “GET ME THE F*CK OUT OF HERE AND FIND SOMEONE COMPETENT TO DO IT.”

  • WTAF, how many dead and damaged babies is it going to take?

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Is this going on now? Can anyone break in and suggest transport to the hospital? O cr@p!

    • Anj Fabian

      This is live. Yes, people are trying to light a fire under someone, anyone involved in this situation.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Can people continue to update us, since it’s a closed group?

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Apparently there is now some talk of going to the hospital.

          • Young CC Prof

            Hopefully this “talk” is on the telephone with 911, but better than nothing.

  • Guesteleh

    “New midwifery traditions like homeopathy and psychological manipulation

    OMG

  • tamara

    tell the baby its okay to come earth side is she serious? hope mommy wises up to the fact that she can’t do this on our own or at home and should be in a hospital

  • AUSSIEDOC

    But isn’t a 4 day labour just a varaition of normal ?
    And who is going to ” hold the space” while the fearless carers take a much needed break ?
    AND why has no one suggested kale smoothies yet ?

    • Dinolindor

      Or stevia.

  • Anj Fabian

    To be honest, this sounds like a Jeevan story. Fortunately they haven’t appeared to try abdominal massage. Yet.

  • Jenn S

    Four days already? Her uterus is probably done and the baby is probably too big to fit through her pelvis. Probably why it hasn’t made it’s way down yet. After contracting for four days her uterus will be in no shape to clamp down on its own to prevent pph. Has she been ruptured for four days? Chorioamininitis may be causing her ineffective contractions and killing the baby and even mom. Seriously transfer care already. I hope this baby comes out okay.

  • DaisyGrrl

    *sigh*

  • AmyP

    Whatever these people are getting paid, it’s too much.

  • Monica

    Hey, you know a great way for the midwife to get her rest and food? Bring mom to a hospital and transfer care, then they won’t need to worry so much if the midwives needs are being met @@.

  • Are you nuts

    These comments kill me. It’s so ironic/hilarious that homebirthers always talk about the OBs who perform unneccessary interventions so they can get to their golf game.

    Guess what? My OB is one of 5 in her practice. She will try to be there to deliver me, but if she can’t, there are 4 other capable physicians who will be there. I will be attended to by nurses who change shifts every 12 hours. Who is more likely to put a birthing mom in a bad position if labor goes “too long”?My OB, or a single midwife with no backup who gets paid by the job, not by the hour?

    • meglo91

      Amenamenamenamenamen. The best thing in the world about giving birth in military hospitals is that whoever is on shift delivers you. The doc might not know or care about your favorite color, and the nurses might not give a crap about the whale noises you want played during labor (though they will probably humor you), but you will definitely be attended by someone who is rested and ready to made good decisions about your care.

    • Tim

      Cascade of “I’m leaving to go get lunch at Panera”

  • realitycheque

    On what planet is this considered preferable to hospital birth?

    After 4 days of labour, that poor woman must be in a state… I’m seriously skeptical that she would be in any position to properly advocate for her own health and safety, let alone that of her child.

    • AmyP

      Where’s dad? Hasn’t he had enough?

      • realitycheque

        I was wondering the same thing… is there no other party there that isn’t the MW or doula? Dad? Sister? Mother? Friend? Or would they just blindly follow the advice of the MW?

        This is seriously frightening… I hope to god that mother and baby come out alright.

        • Ash

          From the Guardian (UK)

          “Karen’s home birth doesn’t go to plan, either. By the time the midwives have been with her for three hours, she is ready to give up. “I
          can’t take this pain. I’m sorry, everyone, but I don’t think I’m going to make it. I would rather have the drugs right now than be at home.”

          Depending on one’s interpretation, the midwife is either calming – or reluctant to admit defeat. “Do you really, really want that?” she asks. “Why don’t
          you listen to some music instead?”

          Karen doesn’t have the strength to argue. They agree to compromise: the baby has two more hoursto show up. After that, Karen will go to hospital and take every drug she can lay her hands on.”

          Certainly can see how deflection would prevent the mother from being able to get to the hospital…”Why don’t you try calling the baby to earthside instead?”

          • realitycheque

            I remember wanting to transfer during my labour (for pain relief) and being given some half-baked excuse by my doula as to why it wasn’t possible. Looking back, had I not been in extreme pain and exhausted I probably would have been able to call her bullshit, but I didn’t have the mental clarity or strength to argue in that moment. Informed consent is difficult when your judgement is clouded by severe prolonged pain and sleep deprivation.

          • Mariana Baca

            This is sick. Why is the midwife “negotiating” when her patient is “allowed” drugs?

    • Are you nuts

      Yeah, this sounds really empowering….

    • Young CC Prof

      I doubt the mother has any idea what’s going on, or that her life is in danger and it may already be too late for the child.

    • This is why I get so frustrated when people say things like, “Why would the mother allow this to go on?” or “Didn’t the Mom realize she needed to go to a hospital?”
      Um, NO. Maybe some people are just lucky to have never experienced a prolonged traumatic event, severe pain, blood loss, etc. You lose the ability to make good decisions–to make *any* decisions. I’ve been in that situation more than once. Hell, just last month, my mom had to make the decision to take me to the hospital…I’m an adult she wanted to leave the decision up to me, but eventually she realized that I was no longer mentally capable of making that decision. Now, I was still “there” enough to not fight her and realize that I needed to listen to her…that hasn’t always been the case. A couple years ago, my home health care aid practically had to tie me up and drag me to the hospital. I was in so much pain I couldn’t think, I didn’t want to move, I just wanted to curl up on the bed and sleep and try to make the pain go away. I don’t really remember much, but she had to cajole and eventually threaten me to get me into the car so she could drive me to the ER. And if she hadn’t, I would be dead right now.
      It’s the responsibility of the health care professional to make the call to transport her to the hospital. Yes, in a perfect world, she should be able to make that decision for herself…but right now, I seriously doubt she is able to do so.
      (I will agree with others asking: “Where is Dad?” — but then, after reading previous facebook and blog posts about how Dad really doesn’t get a say if his wife decides to have a homebirth or VBAC, there’s every possibility that Dad doesn’t feel he *can* say anything…or that he really believes that they hired a skilled professional, and they can trust her when she says that everything is OK and that it’s just a variation of normal.)

  • no longer drinking the koolaid

    It’s a closed group, so I can’t follow along. However, Nirvana is listed as one of the admins of the group.

  • Deena Chamlee

    This must stop. I am calling on The American College of Nurse Midwives to ACT ETHICALLY Immediately. Not only will I not reup but I will start a website along with all the others.

    I hope you are monitoring this website!

    • areawomanpdx

      Unfortunately, if it’s a lay midwife or CPM, what is the ACNM going to do about it? What they really need to do is denounce the CPM certification and call for the requirement of AMCB certification for all midwives in the US, but it sure doesn’t look like they’re going to do that. I wonder why? These uneducated idiots make them all look bad.

      • Deena Chamlee

        all leaders are sociopathic in nature, is my opinion from my personal experience. That is why this is allowed to continue year after year. If ACNM denounced it the FELLOWS would not be able to remain in power. INA May, Missy and all fellows have something on each other. They are sociopathic.
        Sadly my opinion and I have challenged the Fellows regarding their bias of not including other members of the College.

    • Ob in OZ

      You may be the most sensible midwife I’ve “met”. Keep fighting the good fight.

  • peanutmama

    this is outrageous. may they go to the hospital. i cannot believe this.

  • Comrade X

    Hey, amazing intuitive non-patriarchal empathic supportive with-woman Health Care Provider! Your patient is in a potentially dangerous situation here. So let’s talk about what really matters. Have you had a nice relaxing lunch yet? A lovely warm shower? Maybe you should take an invigorating scenic walk while you leave your patient to fend for herself. Have you thought about a nap? A family-size tub of popcorn and a Star Wars marathon? A bit of stress-reducing masturbation with Donna Summer playing in the background? Mani-pedi? Seriously, don’t neglect yourself, O Selfless Wise Woman.

    • Squillo

      Has she thought of soaking her head in a nice, warm tub of water? Preferably every couple of minutes for 30-90 seconds for four days?

    • Joyous76

      Yeah, as much as I didn’t feel supported much by the midwives here, at least in the UK this shit wouldn’t fly.

  • sdsures

    I feel really sick.

  • Lisa the Raptor

    This is giving me the same feeling I got watching Darby Partner do the same thing.

  • Amazed

    Not again. Please not again.

    What “job” is Nirvana doing, be it good or not? Someone cares to tell me?

    • areawomanpdx

      I think Nirvana is actually the doula or midwife assistant and not the midwife. At least, if you look at her website, that’s what she advertises she does.

      • Anj Fabian

        Information shows that Nirvana is the second. No idea who the primary is at this time.

      • Amazed

        So they are all doing nothing.

        Wonderful *snark*

  • AD

    Insanity…pure insanity…

  • Trixie

    Oh my god. Not again. I really hope nobody dies this time.

  • Durango

    oh god, oh no…what the hell is wrong with these people????? F—ing transfer, already!!!!