You martyred your son for your birth experience. Was it worth it?

Liberty or Death

The mind is an amazing thing. There is really no limit to the human capacity for shedding responsibility for hurting and even killing others. VBAC advocates seem to be particularly adept at this form of denial.

Consider the following story of a baby who died a preventable death at  a VBA2C. The short version:

The mother had a terrible obstetric history, 3 preterm deliveries, one vaginal, a C-section for preterm breech and a C-section for bleeding placenta previa. She was a horrible candidate for VBAC, with a low chance of success and a high chance of rupture. No hospital would accept her for VBA2C because the risk of rupture and death was too high. She decided to labor at home and show up at the hospital fully dilated. Unfortunately she did have a catastrophic uterine rupture and the baby did die EXACTLY as she was warned. Nonetheless, several months after the fact, she is still babbling that this was both unpredictable an unsurvivable. She is flat out wrong on both points.

This is the way she tells the story on a VBAC support website:

Her terrible obstetric history

My first daughter was a PPROM at 31.5wks, born natural vaginal in about 4 hrs post rupture . No augment or meds to stop labor. Was amazing and despite 24days in NICU she is amazing!

My next baby we were so freaked out about prematurity … [A]t 32.5wks .. I was having contrax, we went in for steroids and “stop meds”. During this antepartum stay I was bullied and badgered and harassed. My breech baby girl also had ‘low fluid’ … [They] told us if we didn’t surgically deliver that day my daughter would die. BIRTH TRAUMA occurred for me and major PPD 9months after due to horrible 21day NICU stay and crap bonding (despite steroids her lungs were crap for a 34week girl) …

… 3rd daughter was bound and determined to get to ten! birth vaginally! no bullying allowed! Alas, due to csection, a complete centered placenta previa. Made it to 35weeks when a bleeding placenta forced surgical delivery. Healing birth don’t get me wrong but hospital policy dictated an antepartum stay for a few days during which I was asked to “presign” consent etc and had to fight doctors … my hubby and I even had social workers sent in for us because my RN (who was 8months pregnant) couldn’t understand that a healthy baby was NOT my only goal outcome. (my emphasis)

Three times this mother was in danger of a baby dying. Once she was even in danger of dying herself. Instead of being grateful, she was angry at not having a specific birth experience. After all, a healthy baby was NOT her only goal.

Her interpretation of being told that she was not a suitable candidate for VBA2C:

We had been working with a CNM, OB, MFM doc all on the same page: the two closest hospitals WOULD NOT let me labor without being bullied and badgered for a csection. I was told to come “ready to deliver” which to me meant to labor at home for as long as possible.

Imagine that; they bullied her by telling her that the risk of her baby dying was high. So instead of giving up her “experience” for a live baby, she decided to stay home until the hospital would be forced to let her deliver vaginally.

She and her doula missed the signs of uterine rupture. After multiple hours of regular contractions she felt a “kick” and then continuous pain:

She and I couldn’t differentiate contrax as I was feeling almost tetanic but still very much cramping sensations

Her grossly irresponsible CNM let her labor at home alone and arrived to find that the baby was dead.

 [The rupture] was catastrophic. But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding. My son most likely died within the first 10 minutes though we will never know and for that I am grateful. My CNM arrived around midnight as planned and she couldn’t find baby’s heartbeat. After that I went into shock quite promptly and was eventually ambulance transferred for emergency surgery where my son was removed from my abdomen (he was up by my spleen) and 2 liters of blood was removed from my peritoneal cavity. I needed one blood transfusion but my uterus had stopped bleeding completely so the Dr stitched the now small hole and left it in my pelvis. Though he commented “Never use it again!”

Let’s recap:

A woman with a terrible obstetric history was told that she was not a candidate for a VBA2C because the risk of uterine rupture and death of her baby was too high, even for hospitals that routinely handled VBACs. So instead she decided to labor at home, where a rupture would surely be a death sentence for her baby. Just as she was warned, she ruptured and the baby died. How does she justify the entirely preventable death of her son?

Had this happened in the hospital most likely it would not have given us a healthy or alive son. It was a quick rupture per the 3 OBs that were in the OR, like a popped balloon, not a slow tear. There was no predicting it though per our perinatologist, as it is not evidence based to measure scar thickness to TOLAC. We would most likely not have been presenting to a hospital this early in labor anyway, having not lost mucus plug or water breaking etc. And after a pregnancy so unlike all my others, with everything going our way, why would I
have thought about rupture?

NO PREDICTING IT? The told her repeatedly that they would not oversee a VBA2C specifically BECAUSE they thought she would rupture.

Hospital birth would not have given us a health or alive son? That’s pure bullshit. Had she had a C-section prior to labor, her baby would be alive and healthy. Had she gone to the hospital and had a C-section at the first sign of labor, her baby would be alive and healthy. And the odds are high that if she had experienced the exact same rupture in the hospital, her baby would be alive and healthy. The ONLY reason her baby is dead is because she chose to martyr him on the altar of vaginal birth. She let him die.

But, as I say, the human mind is an amazing thing. She still hasn’t accepted responsibility for her choice.

We were given the statistics respectfully and it was our choice to make. Obviously the wrong one for my son but how were we to know?

How were you to know? BECAUSE THEY TOLD YOU!!!

There is at least a glimmer of awareness:

I do have more posts coming related to the birth and VBAC, specifically one called , “I Martyred My Son” but since it is highly political I am really working it to make it right.

But only the tiniest glimmer:

My story should not be taken as a scare tactic. I would still have made the same choice but wish we had the option to attempt this in the hospital. I will never know if we could have saved my son if given the opportunity to monitor him earlier.

But what we ALL know is that if she had agreed to a C-section, he would be alive, cooing, babbling, smiling at his older sisters, and instead he is DEAD! All the potential of a life that had limitless potential was snuffed out just because his mother wanted to experience a vaginal birth.

She martyred her son for her own birth “experience.” I’d like to know if it was worth it.

  • Ash

    Was the “I Martyred My Son” essay ever published?

  • ALTDoula

    Really late jumping on here but I had to leave a comment because this is local for me. I’ve read this post before but the connection wasn’t there. Now that I am aware, I’m literally just freaking out, unable to sleep… both of my babies were born at the hospital in which she works. The OBs and nurses there are amazing; I’ve dealt with them as a patient and as a doula. What really scares me is that the CNM mentioned is known in my local NCB community as one that is “really good about transfers.” I am now petrified for any woman in my town that chooses homebirth.

  • Stacy21629

    Beth.

    The mother’s name is Beth. I didn’t realize until tonight that her name is on her blog. I’ve been referring to her as the “mother” or this “woman” and I feel badly for not using her name. Certainly we’ve all used the baby’s name – Griffin.

    My office manager’s name is also Beth and she had a baby recently. PROM at 36 weeks, 6 pounds, healthy hospital birth. I saw him Tuesday evening – smiling under a baseball cap too big for his head. I am fairly certain he shares his birthday with poor little Griffin. Oh what should have been. :(

    • Young CC Prof

      Should have been indeed.

    • Bombshellrisa

      The “everything is too big on this baby” baby! I had one of those : )

  • sdsures

    The delusion, it burns.

  • Stacy21629

    Now she seems to hint at trying AGAIN for another baby. She says that giving birth would be a “win” for her and likens achieving a vaginal delivery to climbing a mountain. Except that she “could not have known” she was fall into a crevasse and lose Griffin (nevermind all the OBs, MFMs, etc…). But now…:
    “I don’t know how long it might take to attempt a run at the summit again. ”

    Maybe she just means going on with life in general…but it’s an interesting way to word things…

    She also calls the night before Griffin died the “Happiest Day of her Life”. Never mind those other 3 healthy kids she has.

    Ug. I really want to feel badly for her but the delusion is unbelievable.

    • Young CC Prof

      God, please don’t give this woman another child until she gets some therapy and learns to accept reality.

    • Bombshellrisa

      She doesn’t know much about mountain climbing. Of this was Everest, no climbing company would allow her to climb with them.

      • Mishimoo

        Could you imagine what she would write about the attempt though?

        My dad went to the Himalayas in ’97 and on the way up to Everest Base Camp, the guide went too far too fast. The medical supplies had either been depleted or stolen/sold, and the group somehow ended up in a small hospital with such bad altitude sickness that the doctor put them in the room next to the morgue, for ease of transport. They managed to survive and as far as I know, none have tried to do it again. There’s probably a lesson in that.

      • Renee Martin

        Everest is closed to climbers this year, after a bunch of Sherpas died in an avalanche. Its thought to be too deadly this season to allow climbing. You know, managing risk vs the responsibility of keeping peole safe. Imagine that!?.

        This mom is more reckless than a climber attempting a climb that kills people regularly. NICE
        I am sure HB is more dangerous than mountain climbing as it is.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Someone ran the numbers once and it was indeed found that home birth is the more dangerous of the two. Although they are both things that are to be attempted by only the healthiest, lowest risk people and be accompanied or in the care of people who understand when the attempt must be stopped.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Someone ran the numbers once and it was indeed found that home birth is the more dangerous of the two.

            Climbing Mt Everest is much more dangerous than HB. The death rate of Everest climbers (in terms of attempts) is something like 2%.

            “Trying to climb Mount Everest” is one of the few things that people do that is more dangerous than childbirth.

            My favorite: in terms of daily risk, childbirth is more dangerous than being on death row in the US.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I can’t remember which person here did it, but they calculated that the risk of home birthing in Oregon is more dangerous than climbing Everest although with the recent tragedy on Everest that might be different now.

    • Who?

      I read that too, hoped I’d taken it the wrong way, but maybe not.

      Hopefully husband might withhold his services until her head is a little clearer?

    • FormerPhysicist

      Too many comments to find it again – but someone posted a quote about summit fever earlier. Prescient much?

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

        If this was happening in any other online situation, I’d say she was reading this discussion board and tailoring her commentary to maximize attention and drama. I do not believe that is what is happening here, but it’s creeping me out anyway.

    • moto_librarian

      She said that the OB who did her section after the rupture told her not to use her uterus again. If she gets pregnant again, it may well kill both her and the baby. At this point, you need to think about your other children, and what impact losing their mother would have on them.

    • anh

      I just don’t get it. I honestly really don’t. When I look at my daughter I see a feisty redhead who cracks me up and sings songs with me. Sure, I pushed her out of my vagina….but who the hell cares? the second they are out…who the hell cares how they got here?
      my eyes suck. I need strong glasses.
      my husband’s lungs suck and he needs asthma meds.

      neither of us are particularly upset about these issues. why would someone care about the circumference of their pelvis?

      My own body issues are my own. what kind of asshole would I be the actually gestate a child to validate me?

  • Guest

    OT- can anyone give me a brief takedown on the Farm “statistics” they post? Besides of course they risk out everyone. Thanks in advance.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      • Guest

        Thank you. I am specifically referring to the vbac success rates of 96.8%, which someone is using to try and convince women that HBACS are safe as long they use natural birth practices. :/

        • Guest

          The rates posted on their website that is.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Since she never published it in a peer review scientific journal it is obvious that she is making it up.

        • Elizabeth A

          Keep in mind that the Farm employs a number of both explicit and implicit strategies for screening patients. They have a low-risk patient pool.

          And no one is exactly supervising their data collection, so it’s not crazy to suspect that it’s bullshit.

        • Renee Martin

          She is a liar, and she could very well be making this shit up entirely.

          But, since they value a vaginal birth without pain meds over life, so I could actually see those numbers being accurate. They are also remote, and those that birth there are probably pretty brainwashed, or even totally indoctrinated. Who would tell Ina NO? Or leave?

          I always wondered how many dead babies they have buried out there. I am sure there are lots of off grid pregnancies among those women, so if a baby died, who would be the wiser? They could give it a “spiritual burial at the center of midwifery” or some such nonsense.

  • Bombshellrisa

    OT: just heard the greatest line on Steven Colbert: “there is nothing more vintage than dying of rubella”.

  • MLE

    From a post on her blog: “The thoughtful doctors and nurses that brought him earthside for me attempted to bring him back from the dead; forty-five minutes they worked in a fruitless fight for him, and for our family. His little body had given up two hours before, though, and in the end there was no saving him. I worried when I heard of their valiant attempt, not for anything but vanity…I knew he was gone before he was born, so I worried he too would be scarred from his experience.”

    What in the world?

    • Stacy21629

      She’s a nut. That’s really about all there is to it. See her post about stretch marks and scars. She’s “glad” her baby didn’t end up with too many injections/punctures/scars etc. She’s happy to have born the scars for him. Gag.

      Notice that she’s worried her DEAD BABY would be scarred. Never mind the poor doctors and nurses trying to revive him. Who cares about their mental health in all this.

      • prolifefeminist

        Well, if her baby had been scarred it would have ruined all the photos.

        That sounds harsh, and I truly don’t mean to sound harsh. I just….I just cannot imagine for one single second that I would think about vanity at a time like that. I’m sorry. I normally can understand where people are coming from even if I totally disagree with them, but I’m having a hard time understanding this woman’s mindset.

        • Stacy21629

          I don’t think it’s harsh. I think it’s spot on. She’s selfish enough not to care about saving her baby’s life. It makes sense (well, not really, but in a psychotic i’m-ok-with-killing-my-baby kind of way) that she would care so much more about the physical appearance of her baby’s body than his actual life.

          • Anj Fabian

            She created a detailed fantasy scenario about how each of her daughters would greet their new brother.

            I find it very difficult to understand this woman.

          • anne

            I find it very difficult to understand how someone keeps knocking her up. She’s clearly mentally incompetent on the subject of pregnancy/childbirth. It sounds like she turned down a c-section in one of her previous labors and her husband had to step in and agree for her.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Yeah, things rarely go the way you imagine when it’s sibling meeting time. I distinctly told my parents my brother was ugly and I didn’t want him. My dd gave baby brother a quick once over and then proceeded to ignore him and tell me all about her day.

          • MLE

            Yet ANOTHER reason to resent those doctors. Ugh there they are trying to bring him back to life like a bunch of saps.

      • Mac Sherbert

        Well, if she were really happy to have born the scars for him wouldn’t she have just gotten the C-section to begin with?

      • sdsures

        Link please?

      • Renee Martin

        She didn’t worry about his death scarring him.
        How delusional.

    • Jessica S.

      •/ <— my attempt at an emoticon of me throwing my arms up in the air, a la "who knows!" :)

      • MLE

        My arms have flown off my body after spending extended time over there!

        • KarenJJ

          o

          (more then two characters)

      • Karen in SC

        Looks more to me like pressing your hands over your cheeks like that famous painting The Scream.

      • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

        I think you mean this emoticon: /o

        • Jessica S.

          Ah, that’s better!

      • Lombardi

        ¯(°_o)/¯

        • Jessica S.

          Wow! Color me impressed. :)

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Back in August, the mother was apparently planning a homebirth:

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      I see that others realized it before I did.

    • Stacy21629

      That friend is probably the one that sent the sympathy card she burned. I can only imagine her horror at seeing her friend choose to allow her son to die.

      The craziness of this woman knows no bounds.

    • EllenL

      How tragically prophetic that is.

    • Stacy21629

      She says “good luck with your own uterus not exploding” like it’s a bad thing.

      Except for her…it was. She’s PROUD that her uterus “did its job” and “birthed a baby”.

      • MLE

        That is a pretty bitchy comment to a friend who is just hoping she doesn’t die.

        • Stacy21629

          Right. She’s so indignant that her friend would send her the sympathy card she did, but it’s A-OK for her to write this on Facebook, where her friend and the whole world can see it?
          I don’t know how many times I can say just how messed up this lady is.

          • MLE

            She gambled and list big, she says, but also talks about how she isn’t going to make any changes in the way she evaluates risk. You can’t say it enough, I think.

          • MLE

            *lost big

    • Trixie

      Just stomach turning. I keep gripping my gut.
      She’s an RN, I bet her friend had medical training of some kind too, and tried to talk sense into her.

      • Jessica S.

        God forbid a friend try to help, you know?

    • Lombardi

      Not a doctor but wasn’t one of her “unnecearrans” for placenta previa? How the fuck is that not necessary? How the hell us she an RN? Please tell me she can’t practice in my state and her state has some kind of overly simple professional standard for RNs!

      • Empliau

        Sadly, she blames the previa (third child) on the caesarian for the second child.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

      Funny that she mentions good luck with her friends uterus not exploding. That surgical birth would have prevented her uterus from exploding

    • Renee Martin

      Wonder what that friend thinks now? I bet she quit talking to her before, as many friends have to do in these situations.

      • anion

        I know this is old, but a mention of it in comments on today’s post led me to look this woman up, and there’s an answer to your question on her blog. Apparently this friend sent a sympathy card that the mother perceived as having an “I told you so” tone. She doesn’t quote the card, so it’s impossible to say how much of that tone was real and how much was a reaction to any mention of the friend’s fears of this very thing happening. The mother basically says in her post that the friendship is over (there’s also some “Well, if it had gone differently I’d be the one saying ‘I told you so,’ and it’s not like my choices led directly to my baby’s death,” stuff from the mother. The delusion is pretty incredible there).

        I imagine the friend didn’t intend her sympathy note to come off as “Nyah nyah nyah!” but, as much as I side with the friend here–and feel bad for her, too, because we’ve had a commenter here who was in the friend’s situation, begging a pregnant friend not to attempt a risky delivery and dealing with the guilt of “Did I do enough? What could I have done/said differently to stop this from happening?” in the wake of her friend’s death–it is kind of lousy to say anything resembling “I told you so,” in a sympathy note to someone who is supposed to be your friend. (Again, assuming the friend did do so; people dealing with loss–people in general–don’t always take comments as they’re intended.)

        However much I or any of us look at this and see how this woman’s irresponsibility and foolish, reckless choices led to the loss of her baby, and however much she put her own “experience” above the safety of her son, and however much her actions have damaged her other children, and however much she was obviously very aware of the risks but certain she knew better than everyone else…she didn’t go into it expecting her baby to die, and she is grieving, and she does deserve some sympathy and support.

  • Bombshellrisa

    Did anyone comment yet on the fact that this woman is an RN?

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

      Yeah, it’s come up. This is just a monster of a thread to find anything in.

    • Stacy21629

      Not directly, but yes. I mentioned it in some responses to Hush saying that she didn’t “believe” the risks she was told.

      Like hell. She’s a freaking nurse. She should know better. The only reason she didn’t is because she didn’t WANT to.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

      Yeah, there is a whole convo about it, about 100 comments down

  • Megj86

    Can anyone please provide a link to the original VBAC support page where she shared this story? Also, does anyone know if TFB has anything to say about this?

    • Trixie

      It’s a private Facebook group run by Jen Kamel. I’m not a member and didn’t see this thread firsthand.

    • The Mole

      It’s called VBAC Facts Community. It’s a closed group. The thread is still up, Griffins mom is unaware about this post.

  • EllenL

    As a follow-up to Stacy and Trixie, I also noticed references to a planned homebirth, when I read the entry March 31, An Open Letter to My Son.

    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014/03/an-open-letter-to-my-son.html

    From that entry:

    “We started preparing for you to come and put your sisters in their beds. They were so excited, knowing they would get to wake to meet you in the night. And we were so giddy to have you home, healthy and happy and as a whole family.”
    Then:

    “I was going to have a great story to tell you about the night you were born. Your dad was Superman. Your mom was Wonderwoman. And with your sisters chiming in the background about how they saw your first breath, heard your first cry…”

    • Mominoma

      The picture of him on her chest hurts my heart. Poor little Griffin…he was so beautiful and perfect and he should still be with his family.

      • prolifefeminist

        Ohhhh… :.( I shouldn’t have looked. Poor, sweet, beautiful baby Griffin…he should have his whole life ahead of him right now. I can’t stand the senselessness of it all. I hate the cult of NCB so much.

  • Stacy21629

    Update, this woman absolutely was planning for a *H*BA2C.

    “I put old sheets on the bed for the afterbirth”

    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014_04_01_archive.html?m=0

    Her obstetric history also includes *3* early miscarriages. “Women’s bodies are made for birth” my butt.

    That poor, poor baby in that last picture.

    • Bombshellrisa

      The picture of her son on her chest hit hard. There is a picture of my son on my chest like that, taken 10 days before.

      • Stacy21629

        I have a pic of my son and I like that too, just hours after his home birth. Pink and beautiful and alive. How lucky we were. How crazy this woman is.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Lucky indeed! My son was born at 35 weeks and I couldn’t think of anything else but him and hoping he was ok. He was. He is currently staring and cooing at his fist and I feel so blessed.

      • ihateslugs

        I know…burst into tears (again!) with that photo. My son was born 2/15, and I also have the exact same picture. This whole thing is just SO heartbreaking. I feel the same way I did with little Gavin Michael–horrified, frustrated, angry, and a whole lot of sorrow. You know, I have even cried for this mother. While in this case, I unequivocally feel her choices led to his death, I’m terribly sad that she was led down a path, (undoubtedly with a whole lot of support and encouragement from NCB friends and groups), where she actually BELIEVED no harm would come from her planned homebirth. And it is totally clear she was planning to have him at home, no “late transfer.”

        • prolifefeminist

          I kind of feel that too. Even though his mom was reckless, I doubt she would’ve been that reckless if she hadn’t been cheered on and brainwashed into thinking that anything was more important that a healthy mom and baby.

          • Stacy21629

            It takes a special amount of personal delusion though to sit face to face with multiple OBs and MFMs with her obstetric history and basically tell them to take their recommendations and shove it.

            I don’t doubt that she was fed a lot of hogwash…but you have to be pretty deluded in your own right to believe it to THIS extreme extent.

          • ihateslugs

            Did you see her comment, though, that (in my interpretation) made me think that she felt she had “evidence” on her side? I think it was in the post about burning the last condolence card, where she mentions something about her friend not understanding her “evidence based practice” for her birth plans. That really made me think that she was definitely reading or being encouraged to believe a lot of this garbage “data” by homebirthers about the safety of homebirth even in variations of normal, which I’m now certain she believed herself to be. This just confirms to me how much NCB is really a cult–brainwashing that goes so far as to lead to death. That doesn’t absolve her of her personal responsibility in her son’s death, but it may help to explain some of her rejection of the sound medical advice she received. After all, doctors are part of the establishment, and every good cult knows the first thing you have to do is make your followers distrustful of the mainstream practice.

          • Stacy21629

            Yes, I read that part in the condolence post too. I just don’t see most of even the most woo-soaked people out there being THIS extreme. Half of her prior pregnancies (3/6) ended in miscarriage. The other half in preterm delivery, 2 as c-sections. She’s NEVER managed a term delivery, period – vaginal or otherwise. She’s a nurse. To not understand that NOTHING about her obstetric history is a “variation of normal” to me has to have a healthy dose of personal delusion. Most folks that have seen BoBB too many times would still be able to recognize the trainwreck that this woman is. Why she couldn’t recognize it herself? It’s pathological in my estimation.

          • ihateslugs

            Totally agree that her delusion is pathologic. It’s like she was able to completely block out her entire obstetrical history and view this pregnancy as “normal” because they had made it to 38 weeks and all seemed to be fine. She refers to a “dream team” of physicians and specialists; I have no doubt that many, many hours of counseling about her choices ensued. (Which, OT, don’t you think is an odd way to refer to individuals whose professional advice you completely ignored?) She is absolutely beyond the fringe in terms of her beliefs…which means she likely does have mental health issues. Very, very heartbreaking.

          • rh1985

            I don’t understand how she is a RN.

        • rh1985

          I also have a Feb 2014 baby – actually my daughter was born the same day as Gavin Michael so I will never forget that poor baby :( she was an emergency CS birth and because of that we are both healthy and alive….

      • ihateslugs

        Bombshell, you are in Seattle, right? Hmm…maybe a Dr. Amy fan playgroup when our sons are older? :)

        • Bombshellrisa

          I am and I think that is a good idea! I got an invitation to a play date and I have to turn it down, as a couple of the kids are unvaccinated and I don’t want to risk my baby getting something.

          • ihateslugs

            That actually happens to be one of my issues too! Was invited to a Bainbridge group, (live in Poulsbo), and graciously declined for the same reason. We ferry over to Seattle all the time, though, so we should sometime!

  • Trixie
    • Stacy21629

      Guess I should have hit “refresh”, haha. I’m at least the 3rd person to post that. :-P

  • Jenna

    I’m curious to know what made her a bad candidate for a VBAC. What in her medical history increased her chances of rupture?
    I’ve had 2 VB and the last one was a c-section for a complete previa. Does the fact that I had placenta previa make me a bad candidate for VBAC if I were to have another child?

    • Stacy21629

      Couple things.
      First, she had an unproven pelvis for a term fetus. Her only prior vaginal delivery was a 31 week premie that likely only weighed about 1500g. The average term baby is 2500g.
      Second, she had 2 prior C-sections for preterm babies so the incisions were not made into a full term uterus – thus positioning, stretch, etc is not the same as a full term C-section.

      If, for example, her first delivery was a normal vaginal delivery of a healthy term baby, but her second and third were C-sections for non-repeatable events (say, breech and a malpositioned cord resulting in bradycardia) she would have been a much better candidate for VBA2C. She would have had one prior term vaginal delivery – proving she was able and C-sections for completely different reasons. Certainly there would still be OBs that would not be comfortable with a TOL (and I can’t blame them, after all it’s THEIR name on the lawsuit) but some would be.

      Under no rational circumstances was this woman a good candidate for vaginal delivery. If she had had testing/treatment for lung maturity at 36-37 weeks and a RCS following she would have a healthy happy baby right now.

      • Jenny

        Thank you..very interesting.

      • Anj Fabian

        New information. She also had three miscarriages.

        First child was born in 2007 so in the space of seven years, she had four pregnancies and three miscarriages.

        A troubled and complicated reproductive career.

        http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014/04/waiting-for-blood.html

      • araikwao

        The median birth weight for a term infant in Aus is 3500g, so probably similar in the US.

        • Stacy21629

          Thanks for catching that. Editted. :)

    • Trixie

      You should talk with your doctor, but a c/s for previa after 2 VBs probably makes you a pretty good candidate. They’ll do ultrasounds to make sure there isn’t any previa this time.

    • Jessica S.

      One of the regular commenters, Dr. Kitty (a doctor, IRL, too) summed it up, based on the available info. This thread is so huge, but if you can find her name you’ll probably find the comment I’m referring to. It helped me wrap my mind around the seriousness of her situation.

  • MaineJen

    “[The rupture] was catastrophic. But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding.”

    Wow. Talk about being so far gone into the woo that even after a disaster like this, you’re still crowing about how your body ‘knew what to do.’ This passage just gives me the shivers. And…How how *how* does a person even contemplate writing something entitled “I martyred my son”? How?

    • Anj Fabian

      Tempted to post a comment to her blog with a link to Jeevan’s latest post about a UR. The one with the baby as they found when they opened the abdomen.

      That is what UR looks like. That is what she is prattling on about.

      • Karen in SC

        Exactly. I think that’s a good idea. Some will see it and maybe it will make a difference.

  • Guest

    I’m confused. The way it is phrased makes it appear that her team of specialists told her she was to labor at home and come ready to deliver. Can someone clarify? Did she switch providers? Was it the three preterm births that excluded her from being a VBAC candidate?

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      It wasn’t her team of specialists who said that, it was her internet cheering section and her doula and midwife

      • Guest

        That makes sense. That’s so sad. The state of message boards are terrifying. Several advise women to not show up for their section.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I agree that she was vague on the source of that advice, but it happens ALL THE TIME on message boards. It’s basically page one of the “avoid a c-section” textbook. It’s pretty friggin disgraceful, if you ask me.

          • Guest

            Can anyone tell me why this woman was such a poor vbac candidate? I know c sections for pre term birth lower rates of vbac success but I’d like to know what raised her risk of rupture. I am not bring argumentative because obstetrics my area of expertise. I am a vbac mom and take the risks very seriously.

          • Guest

            *Obstetrics is not my area of expertise.* *being argumentative* typing on a phone is hard apparently.

          • Young CC Prof

            Because the uterus hasn’t stretched enough for a low incision, pre-term c-sections often require a “classic” incision, which leaves more damage to the uterus.

          • araikwao

            It’s likely at that gestation, though, that a lower segment would have been present.

          • Julie

            Just look at this wonderful advice, straight from the BBC “support” board that encourages outright lying to HCPs about various things to avoid the dreaded c. This is in response to a mom whose pediatrician friend warned her of the risks of UR and was asking about laboring at home/in a birth center vs. in the hospital:

            “The time to get to the OR will vary, but in some cases, an emergent case coming from home will get in even faster than an emergent case in the L&D already.”

            That’s right, labor at home as long as possible, because if you have to go to the hospital, you’ll get to bump another patient with a medical emergency, putting now two babies at greater risk because of your stupidity! It’s mind boggling. Absolutely no concern for anyone or anything other than their “experience.”

        • Anj Fabian

          Should we make OBs take MASH training so they are prepared to deal with these train wrecks on a regular basis?

          Not really joking. OBs are trained to do routine surgeries under controlled conditions. Once you do enough “This Old House” scenarios when you open a patient up and find a disaster, you probably wonder if that scenario should be presented at a conference for CEUs.

  • CrownedMedwife

    I just can’t take it. I just can’t take it. I usually can reserve empathy for loss mothers, but this loss is making it very challenging to do so. I usually can tout the difference and benefits in CNM’s over CPM’s, but all I have is embarrassment for the profession and utter and absolute disgust for her part in this tragedy.

    Congratulations to Griffin’s mother for offering her son up as the sacrificial lamb of VBAC and HBAC risks. Remember the OB, MFM and hospital
    CNM who counseled you against proceeding with a VBAC…THIS, THIS IS WHAT THEY MEANT! They weren’t using scare tactics or fear mongering. ‘Dead baby card’…yeah, this is exactly why OB’s and CNM’s use it. Because. They. Don’t. Want. Babies.To. Die. Preventable. Deaths.

    As for the HB CNM: WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING??? What
    thoughts crossed your mind in that this woman was a suitable candidate for a VBAC? When recommendations call for CEFM, IV access and surgical crew immediately available, how the hell did you rationalize a HBAC? If three providers concurred the risks outweighed the benefit of a TOLAC in a hospital setting, what the hell did you think you had to offer in her goddamn living room? Get your head out of your ass and your mind out of the NCB echo chamber, it’s caused enough damage already.

    Scanned my birth log from the month of Griffin’s death, low
    and behold a VBA2C. The difference being in a hospital, CEFM, IV access,
    OB/ANESTHESIA/NEO on the unit with an appropriately screened VBAC candidate. A perfectly healthy baby was born and a year from then her parents will be planning a first birthday party. It’s absolutely
    disgusting this mother doesn’t have a damn thing to celebrate except her uterus’ ability to rupture a healthy term baby into her abdomen. C’mon HB CNM…is it that freaking hard to leave the high risk mothers to receive care in the appropriate setting with the appropriate providers?

    My apologies for the rant, but this entire scenario is just absolutely disgusting and I’ll borrow my mother’s words in saying “I’m so angry I could spit”.

    • Jessica S.

      I appreciate your rant. It shows you care. :)

  • http://www.antigonos.blogspot.com/ Antigonos CNM

    Somewhat OT but have we ever had such a huge number of comments within such a short time period [less than 48 hours]?

    • Young CC Prof

      Only during the Midwifery Today/ Gavin Michael incident.

  • Dr Kitty

    Hush, I am sorry your friend died, truly.
    You are assuming we would say mean things about her and blame her, because we absolutely blame the woman in the post above.

    It sounds like your friend was lied to by her midwife, it sounds like she found those lies easier to believe than your warnings.
    That must be a hard thing for you to live with.

    Respectfully, I think you may be projecting your situation onto our responses to this one.

    This lady knew the risks inherent in her choice, she doesn’t regret allowing her son to die in order to attempt a VBAC, because the goal of VB was more important than his life.

    I, personally, do not think that such a choice should be illegal, but I do think it was wrong. I don’t think she deserves to be abused for it, but I do think that it is reasonable to criticise it.

  • Lombardi

    This is a cruel statement I am about to make but I feel logical. One has to wonder about the future welfare of the daughters. If she is willing to ignore all of the evidence against a vaginal birth in her case. What other bad choices is she capeable of due to this deep of a cognitive dissonance in regards to health issues? Many parents question their choices and don’t assume they are always right. I don’t see that ablity here. Many parents pay experts to assist them in decision making. I listen to my Ped because she is an expert in child health while I am not. This women refused to listen to or fought the experts’ (OBs) opinions in three births. Now she finally went all the way with the 3rd and didn’t let herself get “bullied” into a CS. All she has to show for this is a a horrific out come and she still thinks she is right! I wonder what will happen if a doctor wants to treat her remaining children using a method she see as “unnatural”.

  • T.

    Hush is the most entarteining commenters (i don’t think she is a troll) we have had in a while, you must admit.

    I find the mindset she has quite telling:
    About Doctors:
    1. Some doctors are bad
    2. Since 1., women (?) don’t trust all doctors
    3. Since 2, women won’t follow what doctors say
    4. Since 3 babies -and women- will die, but it will be the doctors fault because 1.
    This is quite interesting indeed. Of course it is wrong. You should have enough brain to get that even if 1 is true, 2 doesn’t follow. I know some neurologists are bad, still going to trust neurologists on my migraine, on my father’s heart problems and on a slew of other medical issues. It is almost a nirvana fallancy: “Medicine is not perfect! So women don’t trust docs! Make medicine perfect or it is medicine’s fault people don’t use it!” Like on vaccine, if you think of it. “Vaccines have 1 chances in 10 000 000 to give you seizures, so it is the vaccine’s industry fault I am not vaccinating. Make vaccines PERFECT or it will be their fault”.
    Interesting indeed.
    On Meaness:
    1. This woman has lost a baby
    2. She is evidently suffering for it
    3. So she must not absolutely been told that she had made mistakes, because pain in some way take responsability away.
    This is the degeneration of “not blame the victim” mentality. And in many case it is right. But not blaming the victim doesn’t mean not blaming somebody who is suffering. If I drive drunk with my sis as a passager, we hit a tree and my sis dies, I may suffer beyond words and it is STILL MY FAULT. I can co-blame the bartender, the car, the tree, the street manteinance, but in the end, it is MY FAULT.
    Same here.

    • NoLongerCrunching

      Where’s the logic? Most OBs are women now. The only difference between them and MWs is that they have willingly put forth years of effort to learn how to safely manage any birth complication. Oh and that they dont hesitate to transfer care to a higher level specialist the instant mom or baby’s risk level goes up. Homebirth MWs in contrast dont transfer until after an emergency happens, have a financial incentive to treat complicated births as variations of normal, and have deliberately avoided advanced training.

      • T.

        There is no logic. It is not about logic, it is about a misguided attempt to protect a person who is perceived to be in pain from more pain. And I get it… on a level.
        On another level even if it is a noble attempt it is wrong.
        Reminds me of those people who thinks skeptics that battle against cancer-quacks as evil, because they are “taking away” hope from families that desperately wants that miracle cure to work for their child’s unoperable, intreatable brain cancer. But fact is, there is no hope there. Not of a cure. And pretending otherwise is false. Yes, it is painful. But doing nothing means allowing people to grow fat and rich on the money desperately scrouged from families. And it can’t be allowed.

        • Guest

          This is classic of the guy that killed his parents asking the court for mercy because he is an orphan. If you killed your sister in a DUI that’s really not my business. You’ll deal with the law and your conscience and yeah, I probably would say, “She is suffering enough, leave her alone.” But if you then write a long piece in the paper about how you are glad you did it, those last hours of fun with your sister were magic and worth her death — and no one is allowed to contradict you because you are in too much pain over her loss … you’re fair game. People HAVE to respond.

          • T.

            Exactly that. Very good comparison. Still, it is incredibly sad that people would STILL defend the woman.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      That’s exactly what Jenny McCarthy says. If polio makes a comeback, it’s pharma’s fault for not making a perfect vaccine product. Not her fault!

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Um…what’s wrong with the polio vaccine, even in Jenny McCarthy’s tiny little mind? It doesn’t even contain the infamous mercury.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          From Steven Colbert’s twitter last night: “Who needs vaccines? Many American heroes were never vaccinated. Off the top of my head: FDR. Wait… bad example.”

          • Young CC Prof

            At least one of Ben Franklin’s children.

          • Hannah

            Oh lord, Stephen Colbert is ripping those anti-vaxxers APART! And it is glorious.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Toxins!!!

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Yeah, but neither did the MMR vaccine (ever), but that never stops an anti-vaxxer

          • Trixie

            Propelyne Glycol! You know, like in those e-cigarettes she sells…..

        • GracieW

          Is this post about vaccines? No. stay on topic, straw man.

          • anion

            It’s called a conversation, Gracie. Sometimes it moves organically in different directions.

    • Gene

      I am a woman AND a doctor. That MUST be why I don’t trust my decisions. Blue scrubs today, or green??? Cereal, or toast??? I never had these problems before med school.

      /sarcasm off

  • guest

    Please can someone explain the difference between these actions (legal) and a late term abortion (illegal)?

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

      She wasn’t trying to kill the fetus. She just accidentally and predictably did kill it.

      Basically, since the intent wasn’t death, it wasn’t an illegal late-term abortion. Not that late-term abortions should be illegal, for the same reason that HBA2Cs with super crazy contraindications shouldn’t be illegal.

      • guest

        The question was rhetorical and was actually posed to me by a coroner. It is a very very very fine line.
        Late term abortions are illegal in most counties.
        Autonomy is not completely unrestricted.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Abortion is an odd exception to personal autonomy. You’re allowed to refuse to give your blood or bodily tissue to someone who needs it. You’re allowed to giggle at a dying relative while saying, “Nah, nah, I’m not giving YOU my kidney” if you so choose. (Well, you are until they get a restraining order.) You are allowed to refuse life saving surgery or procedures on your own behalf and (usually) on your children’s behalf. I really can’t think of any other situation where a risk of harm is forced on an unwilling person for the benefit of another in the medical context except for abortion restrictions. Ironically, if this woman had said she was refusing a c-section because she didn’t want the baby and wanted it to die, she probably would have had a court ordered c-section–and someone else would have had a healthy baby to raise. It is only because she wanted the baby that she was allowed to let it die. So if your point is that the law is screwed up and inconsistent, I agree with you.

          • guest

            Yes, thank you.

          • Siri

            It has to be, though! How can it not, if you really think about it?

          • guest

            I thought you had it all sorted out Siri? It’s apparently clear-cut.

          • prolifefeminist

            “You’re allowed to refuse to give your blood or bodily tissue to someone who needs it.”

            As I see it, the fundamental difference between those situations that Nym described and pregnancy/abortion is that barring rape/incest, the parents’ actions caused the fetus to exist, unlike a relative who needs a kidney or bone marrow transplant. There is a responsibility there with pregnancy that is unique; the relationship between mother and fetus is unlike any other. I would argue (not that I’m arguing ;) that in a progressive, civilized society, that the more vulnerable a being is, the greater our responsibility is to care for that being, particularly when we are responsible for its existence. I do not mean to limit this fetuses either – human beings of all ages and conditions of life are vulnerable, dependent, and in need of care (physical/social/emotional/financial/spiritual/you name it). The humane/human response is to care for one another.

            I don’t want to veer way off topic here though. I really see these stunt births as so selfish. They may be legal, but they are unethical. Most troubling to me is that there is this enormous industry that has grown up around unsafe birth practices, with all the markings of a cult. I just don’t know how to combat that…one brick at a time I guess? Progress just seems so painfully slow…even more so when there are babies (and mothers) dying needlessly.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            But if you enroll in the marrow donor registry, i.e. make a specific statement that you ARE willing to donate, and then back out for any reason you may get disapproval but you will NOT get forced to donate because you agreed and by your action caused the potential recipient to believe that s/he had a donor. On the contrary, there is specific private counseling to make sure that the donor is not being coerced in any way. And registering the donor registry is a much more definite act of will than having sex. No one gets drunk and accidentally gives a tissue sample to the marrow registry.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, enrolling means you MIGHT be willing to donate. I’m fairly sure the registry doesn’t announce “Hey, we found someone!” until they actually manage to contact you and confirm that you are still willing and able. I’m sure quite a few names on the registry belong to people who are now medically ineligible, or have out of date contact info and can’t be found, or, heck, some are no doubt dead!

            However, if you said, “Yes, I’ll donate next month to this person currently in need,” and then changed your mind, you’re an asshole.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            An asshole, yes, but are you an asshole who should be sent to prison for refusing or be forced to donate? I don’t think so.

            I’m not sure when the patient gets contacted about possible matched unrelated donors. It’s tricky because just knowing the basic HLA type doesn’t say for sure that the person is even a good match or medically qualified. But it’s surely at least as much of a commitment to donate as having sex (especially with birth control) is a commitment to having a baby.

          • Kerlyssa

            Someone who has just shot you in the kidney cannot be compelled to donate their own blood, much less their own kidney. Intent and fault has nothing to do with it.

          • Guesteleh

            I matched with someone on the registry (unfortunately he died before I could donate) and I was told about a quarter of the people who match back out of the donation. I was appalled but there you are. You can’t force someone to give up their bodily autonomy even if it results the death of another person.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Further thought: I think this is an area where there are limitations to what can be done legally because of conflicting needs and rights. A person who would refuse to donate marrow when they’d previously agreed to and another person will die without it or one who would abort a healthy fetus for no medical reason at 29 weeks or one who would risk their baby’s life and brain with a stunt birth is (probably*) committing an immoral act. But should they be illegal? I am uncomfortable with any laws that say that a person must endanger their lives and especially allow their bodily integrity to be violated against their will no matter how good the intent. So I’m of the “leave it legal but make it obsolete/so pointless that no one does it” school of thought.

            *I could probably come up with scenarios where any of the above is the best moral act of a bad lot of choices, but in general the choices made are bad ones.

        • Siri

          What, a coroner asked you that in court? Or at a dinner party? Why did they ask you, particularly, are you an expert? Were they looking to you to provide the answer in an actual case? And no, it’s not a very very very fine line; it’s pretty clear-cut, actually. Tell that coroner to get in touch with me; I’ll give it to them straight.

          • guest

            It’s called a philosophical debate Siri.
            Are you saying it is OK to kill your normal term baby to achieve a normal birth at all costs?
            The conversation with the coroner was in my expert capacity in the field.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          Oh. I didn’t realize it was rhetorical. Yeah, it is a very very very fine line.

          Autonomy isn’t completely unrestricted, but I do happen to think it should become less restricted in this area :/. Which might put me at odds with some people here, but the alternative to maternal autonomy is quite horrific to contemplate.

          • Young CC Prof

            Yeah. Women who engage in stunt birth disgust me, but I firmly believe that a pregnant woman’s right to bodily autonomy lasts right up until the baby actually comes out, so I’d never want to make it illegal. (And, because it IS a fine line, if that baby pops out blue and you don’t call an ambulance, that’s medical neglect of your child.)

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Totally agreed. Once it’s out, it’s a person that you have responsibility for.

          • guest

            You are referring to the common law ‘born alive rule.’ i.e. the fetus is only a legal person if expelled fully and alive from the mother.
            It is an outdated rule from 1601 when the default position was that the baby was born dead unless proven otherwise.
            It is still applicable in most common law countries but has been overturned by both case law and legislation in some US states.

          • Stacy21629

            I think the autonomy line is hindered though by the accompanying idea that it’s unacceptable to remind a mother that her choices might kill her baby. Folks like Hush advocate for maternal autonomy…which somehow includes not discussing risks. If a mother is making a truly dangerous decision (not just a healthy mom declining a heplock, though ill-advised) I think they have a responsibility to harass the crap out of her. They can “respect” her autonomy and not cart her off to the OR against her will but they should not be expected to just stand by and happily watch her baby die either.

            And you’re right, the moment that baby’s out, all bets are off.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I agree. Information can only increase autonomy, and with autonomy comes responsibility. If you make bad choices, you have to own the consequences of your choices. Everything has a price, and that is the price of autonomy. It’s so worth it, of course, but it is a cost.

            And it is absolutely respecting one’s autonomy to come in every five minutes and be like, “Hey, you’re still doing badly, this is really dangerous, we’d really like to help you now”.

            But I also think that late-term abortions should not be banned. They’re extraordinarily rare at very late term, but the ones that occur are medically necessary, and I have serious issues with forcing someone to effectively be a living life support system against her will no matter the health or viability of her fetus.

          • Stacy21629

            “But I also think that late-term abortions should not be banned. ”
            I would agree. As you said they are medically necessary, usually due to catastrophic defects. I just want folks like Hush to own up to all the ramifications. When she says “hell yes” she 100% supports a woman’s autonomy to choose vaginal birth over her baby’s life, no questioning allowed, she is simultaneously supporting a woman at 39 weeks terminating her healthy fetus, just because, no questioning allowed (assuming she could find a provider willing to do that).

            That’s not something I could agree to, ever. At that point she doesn’t have to be forced to be a living life support system – induce, give the baby away and go on with life. It’s not a micro-premie at that point, it’s a 100% healthy baby, just separated by 6-8cm from the outside. I guess that’s still “forcing” a medical procedure (induction) if she doesn’t want it…but whatever, it’s all hypothetical anyway. I seriously doubt there’s anyone out there (MD) aborting healthy 39 week babies just because the mother doesn’t want it after all. I guess it comes down to that – practitioner policing, not lawmaking.

            anyway…babbling… :)

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Well, I’d look at the abortion of a healthy 39 week fetus like I look at this woman’s planned HBA2C. It’s insane, immoral, and shouldn’t happen in any fair or just world. Any woman who made such a choice should be roundly condemned. But it shouldn’t be illegal.

            But yeah, that just doesn’t happen, so I don’t really worry about it.

          • guest

            Sadly it does happen and there is a special area of law to cover it i.e. ‘child destruction legislation’. It originated in the UK (1800′s I think) to cover the gap between the law on abortion and murder i.e. the time around labour.
            It covered the interesting act of delivering the fetal head, then killing the baby, followed by passing the rest of the body.
            Because the baby was not born alive, no crime was committed against a ‘person’
            There is unfortunately some recent case law from the US where similar acts were committed.

          • Stacy21629

            As we pointed out, however, I would be willing to wager that very very few of these procedures are performed at a mother’s whim in the 39th week purely because she decided she didn’t want this baby after all. The few doctors doing 3rd tri abortions simply will not do them for no reason. These babies almost universally have defects that are incompatible with life but were either not detected until late or it was too difficult or expensive for the mother to obtain the abortion earlier.
            When “it does happen” it is exceedingly rare. For a healthy baby with no reason? Rarer to never.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I think that would be much, much less common nowadays. Infanticide was also a lot more common back then, due to widespread poverty, lack of safe abortions, and lack of effective birth control.

            The Gosnell case, if that’s what you’re referring to, actually involved infanticide of wholly born (induced for the purpose of abortion, premature) infants.

          • guest

            I wasn’t referring to Gosnell (but will look it up). People v Chavez is the kind of case I was thinking of.

          • Stacy21629

            I agree. I can no more support the one than I can the other. But legislating it is not the answer either.

          • guest

            I can understand why people are confronted by his question. It creates a sense of internal conflict.
            It is very difficult to reconcile a 100% belief in maternal autonomy with a 100% revulsion in the selfish destruction of the fetus for the ultimate vaginal experience.
            If the fetus has no rights, why can’t it just be a prop in performance art?
            If asked specifically why they are repulsed by the idea of someone killing their child for the experience, people then naturally flounder around for any explanation to avoid challenging maternal autonomy i.e. unethical, offensive, narcissistic, selfish, stupid.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Because it is killing a potential child that is wanted and could live and it is doing it for pretty silly reasons. That is where the revulsion comes, for me.

            Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should, necessarily. It is every woman’s (hell, every person’s) right to do incredibly stupid things, but that doesn’t make them less stupid or mean we can’t call people out for doing them. A fetus doesn’t exactly have no rights, it just has no rights that are more important than maternal autonomy.

            So a fetus can be a prop in performance art. Because of its near status as a person, though, and the presumable desire of the pregnant woman to be a mother, it’s not very wise and it is quite unethical to treat the almost-person as a mere prop. And once born, to withhold medical treatment for pictures (as in zombie baby picture a few posts ahead) is entirely unethical in that it puts the life of a person at risk.

          • Stacy21629

            Brava. Well said.

    • Captain Obvious

      Jesus, one wants a live baby and the other doesn’t. So if a women wants to raise her children but never uses car seats, lets her kids drink alcohol, and etc etc , your arguement is going to be its her choice on how she wants to raise her kids? That she has the same right to do those things because we allow late term abortion happen. Come on, compare apples and apples.

      • guest

        I didn’t make an argument, I posed a question.
        Knowing the expected outcome and proceeding anyway, is wilful action.

        • Captain Obvious

          She obviously “didn’t believe” that expected outcome would occur to her, because she trusted birth, she knew her body can do this because it was designed to birth babies. Thanks to all those NUCB crazies. The woman wanting a late term abortion “knows” what her outcome is and wants that.

      • guest

        “Jesus, one wants a live baby and the other doesn’t”.
        Is a live baby really the objective?

    • fiftyfifty1

      please spare us

      • guest

        yes?

        • fiftyfifty1

          yes.

          • guest

            So, lets see.
            Both patients have a normal term pregnancies.
            One takes a medication she knows will kill her baby=later term abortion.
            The other makes a decision she knows will kill her baby=natural (still)birth.
            Yes?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            AT BEST it’s the difference between murder and manslaughter.

            And that is even given your comparison the benefit of the doubt.

          • guest

            Except it’s neither because it’s a stillbirth.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yes, it’s neither. But he difference is the same as the difference between murder and manslaughter.

            When you figure out the difference between those, you will have the answer to your question.

          • guest

            I assume you are talking about intent.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Of course.

          • T.

            Can you go trolling elsewhere, please?

          • guest

            I’m not trolling.
            Which part of the scenario does not make sense to you?

          • T.

            I do not care about your scenarios. Go bleating about abortion, late or soon or whatever, in sites that are there for that reason.
            I swear, political nuts, anti-vaxer and abortion crazed people can make any topic about their favourite one.
            We have the anti-abortion, the political nut, and I am eagerly awaiting for the anti-vaxer to parachute here claiming that without getting vaccines the woman would have been able to birth all naturally.

          • guest

            Just answer the question.
            Are you OK with people killing their babies for performance art?

          • Captain Obvious

            No woman having a late term abortion is broadcasting on line live like TFB or Rixa, so how are you calling it performance art? Late term abortion is private, as should delivery of a wanted live child.

          • guest

            I am talking about wilfully killing your baby in the quest for a vaginal birth experience at all costs.

          • guest

            The scenario has nothing to do with politics or vaccination. It poses a very simple and very common question.
            Is it OK to deliberately kill your normal term baby to achieve a vaginal birth experience at all costs?
            Don’t get distracted, stay focussed.

          • Lena

            You are a stupid person, but I’ll bite and pretend that abortions at term are actually at all common (I’ll bet money that the number of pregnancies that are deliberately terminated at term is much, much smaller than the number of babies dead or brain damages because of NCB beliefs).

            The difference is intent. It’s one thing to deliberate set out to terminate a pregnancy because you know longer want to be pregnant. It’s another to be a total fucking moron and take risks with a wanted pregnancy because you’re an arrogant asshole who thinks she’s educated because she has an internet connection.

          • Young CC Prof

            Second-trimester abortions are rare and almost all for medical reasons, either pregnancy complications or serious problems with the fetus. Third-trimester abortions are actually illegal most places, as far as I know. (Of course, in the third trimester, early live delivery is an option if medical problems happen.)

          • guest

            You are the stupid one. I am equating deliberately killing your healthy term baby, for a vaginal birth experience, with late term abortion.

          • Siri

            And that is a monumentally, galactically, nay, INTERgalactically stupid comparison.

          • guest

            Please explain.

          • Siri

            Lena already put it very well a few comments ago. Have you ever had a late-term abortion? No? Then stop making such pointless comparisons.

          • guest

            That’s not an explanation.

          • Siri

            As Lena says, the difference is intent. One woman wants her baby, another doesn’t. Diametrically opposite points of view, except you are hell-bent on jumbling them up in a manner which smacks of misogyny.

          • Stacy21629

            Actually, Siri I will agree with guest that it’s not a pointless comparison. If someone believes 100% in a woman’s complete autonomy and preeminence over the fetus she is carrying – what exactly IS the difference between deciding to abort your healthy 38 week baby for no reason other than you decided you don’t want a baby after all and what Griffin’s mother did? I realize the abortion patient actively DECIDED for her baby to end up dead and Griffin’s mom ended up with a dead baby unintentionally…

            I acknowledge that such a thing (late term elective abortion) is exceedingly rare if not non-existent, I’m just exploring the mindset. Which (I think) is what guest is doing. And which is what the Hush poster espoused last night. She said flat out (referring to Griffin’s mother) that “hell yes” she supported a mother’s autonomy to make the decisions she did regarding Griffin’s birth. I also wonder if she feels that way about an elective late term abortion?

            Feminerd and I were discussing this a bit below. Neither of us thinks choosing an HBA2C or late term elective abortion should be illegal, however the ethics of both are hideous. That’s why I wonder if someone that supports the former, also supports the latter. I don’t know how one consistently reconciles the two otherwise.

          • guest

            Thank you Stacy21629. That is exactly what I am doing.
            People who think this is one dimensional simplicity are fooling themselves.
            The situation brings together aspects of philosophy, law, ethics, semantics, autonomy, rights etc. and is delightfully challenging. Definitely not straightforward at all.

          • Siri

            You’re trying to blur lines on purpose, for your own reasons. To me it isn’t complicated at all, but then I am not anti – women.

          • guest

            You give me too much credit Siri,
            I am not blurring the lines.
            The lines are blurred.
            I am not anti-women at all, that is unnecessarily insulting.

          • Siri

            The ethics of both are hideous? To you maybe; you have no idea what goes on in the mind of someone having a late abortion. I am in favour of abortion on demand, full stop; it’s not for me to decide if someone’s reason is adequate or not. A late abortion is horrible thing to have to endure. Women do go to prison for illegally procuring their own abortions; google Sarah Catt. Comparing deliberate fetal destruction with risky birth practices is like comparing child murder with risky childcare practices, except that when a child is born, it has rights which a fetus does not. So risky practices can lead to prosecution for manslaughter in the absence of intent to harm or kill.

            It is enough to say, your choice of birth venue led to the death of your much-wanted child; dragging in comparisons with abortion is just misogynistic claptrap. As a pro-choice feminist I reject it outright.

          • Busbus

            As a matter of fact, late term abortions are almost always done out of dire need, usually in very tragic circumstances. If you are interested, I recommend this series of reader posts on the Dish, posted in the wake of the assassination of abortion doctor George Tiller, where a number of people have shared their personal stories: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/threads/its-so-personal/

            I will warn you, some (a lot) of the stories are very, very sad.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            YOU are the one who is making things up, guest. Please show us 5 American examples of LEGAL terminations after 36 weeks and stop jabbering nonsense until you do.

          • guest

            Ah, Amy, I really expected more from you.
            That is not the point at all.
            The point is why is it legal for you to kill your healthy term baby to achieve a vaginal birth at all costs? (essentially the equivalent of a late term abortion).
            As compared to the alternative hypothetical situation of it being illegal for you to abort (medically or otherwise) your healthy term baby.
            In both cases you are proceeding with a deliberate choice, knowing that it will kill the baby.
            I am not opposed to legal abortion at all (in fact I have performed same) that is not the point.
            As I mentioned before, this was originally a question raised with me by a coroner.
            It has definitely been an interesting discussion – some people got what I was alluding to (thanks Stacy), others not so much.
            So, if you want examples of 5 US examples of legal terminations after 36 weeks, look at the list of unnecessary homebirth deaths you refer to all the time, starting with poor Griffin.

          • Young CC Prof

            The argument against your point would be that she didn’t DELIBERATELY kill the child, she just took a risk. And making risk-taking in pregnancy illegal is a slippery slope I want no part of, that leads straight up to prosecuting women who have miscarriages or stillbirths after doing anything which could be harmful, or which a prosecutor believes could be harmful.

            Home birth should not be illegal. Midwives accepting money to assist with home birth should be illegal.

          • Busbus

            I completely agree about the slippery slope.

            Regarding the midwives, I would argue for a system like in Canada (as far as I understand it), with well-educated midwives, integration into the hospital system, professional accountability and malpractice insurance. That would be worlds better than the way it is here now. I also believe it’s a proposal that is much more likely to actually get majority support.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Why? Because medical autonomy is a negative right. You have the right to refuse the treatment offered, but you don’t have the right to demand a specific treatment. Therefore, you have the right to refuse a C-section, but you don’t have the right to demand a 36 week termination.

          • guest

            Correct, you don’t have the right to demand a 36 week termination but you do have the right to kill the 36 week baby during performance art.
            Then it is called a natural stillbirth instead of a late term abortion.
            Hypothetically?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No, not even hypothetically. Killing requires intent. Homebirth advocates have no intent to kill the baby and that makes all the difference.

          • guest

            You mean murder (or child destruction) requires intent.
            Homebirth advocates have no concern about killing the baby.
            But I agree, it all comes down to intent (and defining of the feto-maternal configuration).

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            edited to correct where comment was intended. Stupid disqus.

      • guest

        From what? Hard questions? We don’t usually shy away from those.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      The difference is that a late third trimester abortion of a healthy fetus in a healthy woman is virtually unheard of whereas this sort of thing happens all too often, as Dr. Tuteur has documented.

      • guest

        That is my point.

    • Ennis Demeter

      When abortion is legal and accessible, third trimester abortion is very rare. Indeed, at that stage of pregnancy, an abortion might be called induced labor of a nonviable fetus, depending on the circumstances. When a woman has access to legal and safe abortion and she does not want to be pregnant, she can ethically terminate the pregnancy in the first few weeks. If a woman does not have access to legal and safe abortion, she may very well wait until the second or even the third trimesters to abort. She may even practice infanticide or abandon the newborn. This happens all over the world and has happened all throughout history. It is one of the reasons abortion should always be legal and accessible. I have long suspected that a certain number of women who for religious or family reasons will not contemplate abortion or even birth control, are engaging in risky birth practices so that they may avoid responsibility for terminating a pregnancy they don’t want. I think it is monstrous and cowardly but I strongly suspect that is what is going on in some cases. This does not mean that women should not always have total autonomy over their bodies and their healthcare. I just wish more women would be brave and honest enough to terminate a pregnancy early on instead of deliberately risking the lives of a newborn.

      • Jessica S.

        Very, very well put.

    • Mariana Baca

      R.vW does limit abortions after viability. They are still legal in certain cases but not normally in healthy sane mother/healthy baby. Although I disagree with abortion in general, I stil think there is a difference between wanted baby in healthy mother dying from negligence for her desire to avoid c-section vs. baby being killed for a specific medical or psychological reason, normally unavoidable. I guess if she claims that a c-section is so traumatic she should rather have an abortion that a live baby, there might be some rare practitioner in some select state willing to do the procedure, dunno if that skirts the legal line or not.

      • GracieW

        Doe vs. Bolton–abortion is legal through all 40 weeks of pregnancy. Thank God there aren’t many doctors willing to butcher a baby weeks away from birth. Though there are a few. Leroy Carhart…fine doctor, that man. Runs a couple clinics. One out in Nebraska has a GENERATOR for power. Totally good medicine there. He butchered Jennifer Morbelli in her 8th month of pregnancy because Jennifer didn’t want to have a disabled daughter so she chose to end her daughter’s life weeks before birth. Carhart just sent another woman to the hospital (this time from is Nebraska clinic). Why this man still has a medical license I’ll never know. He is a threat to his patients.

        • Siri

          Too bad the choice of providers is so limited when it comes to late-term abortion; if Jennifer had been able to access better services, she would still have been alive and could have tried for another baby the following year. The stigma, picketing and threats of violence scares most reputable providers away.

          • Irène Delse

            Without the stigma, threats, pickets, plus in some states a growing number of legal restrictions on abortion providers, she might have found one earlier too. Aren’t most serious anomalies found in the second trimester, with the anatomy sonogram test and/or an amniocentesis? But if a woman can’t find an abortion provider near her, it means she has to travel elsewhere, get the money to finance the trip, etc. Delays can end up making it the dreaded “late term abortion” when the pregnancy could have been terminated before viability.

          • Siri

            Exactly. The more obstacles are put in women’s way, the greater the likelihood of late abortions, either legal or backstreet.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Occasionally the diagnosis isn’t clear in the second trimester or the severity isn’t clear. Third trimester abortions might occasionally result from a woman trying desperately to hang onto a wanted pregnancy gone wrong and then finally acknowledging that it just isn’t going to work. For example, severe twin-twin transfusion where the options are save one twin or let both die. Or AML developing at week 24 or so where the question is whether to let the mother live or kill both. It’s all very rare, FSM be thanked, but it happens.

          • Medwife

            And just the flat-out murder of providers, even a small number of them, in a field where few are brave enough to enter, significantly decreases patient access to care. Remembering Dr. Tiller, shot dead at church.

          • Siri

            Yes indeed! Utterly horrible and incomprehensible to me as a European.

          • Mariana Baca

            Except there are far more restrictions on abortion in Europe than in the US. Maybe that is why there are less extreme positions on the matter there.

          • Dr Kitty

            In some parts of Europe.
            In most of the UK it is effectively maternal request until 24 weeks and foetal abnormality/maternal health or life until term.
            98% of abortions in the UK are before 24 weeks.

            In the UK I think it is about religion (which is why NI is the exception). Most of the UK is secular, with a deeply held MYOB approach to abortion. NI…not so much.

          • Siri

            I don’t think so; the UK has pretty liberal access to abortion. And Norway, with more restrictions, still had its share of fanatics covering plastic fetuses in ketchup; I’ve never come across anything similar here.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            I would have been sent to Dr. Tiller had I been a couple weeks further along..and if he hadn’t been murdered two weeks earlier.

          • Siri

            Oh gosh – that brings it really close to home! How awful. And particularly horrible for you at that time; I’m so sorry. What is wrong with some people? And how dare these murderers call themselves pro-life?!

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            Edited to move where this comment was supposed to go.
            It was hideous. I was lucky enough to be taken to OHSU where I received the best, most compassionate care of either of my two pregnancies. I believe that my providers may have fudged my dates a little to do this, given the strict, arbitrary dates late term bans set. We didn’t discover my son Isaac’s birth defects – despite looking for them – until just on the edge of “too late, yesterday you could spare your beloved baby a life of pain, today you have to force him to suffer.” I was terrified of protesters and violence, but instead it was love, respect and gentleness that released my baby. My living son was conceived one year to the day from his brother (um, happy Valentines day), had the same due date and is now painting on my dining room table with his oatmeal.

            I don’t regret it, not for a moment. We did what was right for our family and our son(s). To compare the experience of an anguished family choosing death for a wanted baby, supported by a team of high level MFM, OB and RN professionals to the arrogant bragging of “invincible wonder woman” wwho was so hell bent on not letting stupid doctors be the boss of her and then allowing her healthy, perfectly formed baby to die a totally preventable death is contemptible and ignorant.

          • Medwife

            Any family faced with that terrible choice deserves the compassionate care that you received. I don’t understand our culture sometimes.

          • Siri

            You totally did the right thing, Kq. You bore the pain and anguish so your little boy Isaac wouldn’t have to. <3 One day those oatmeal paintings could be worth a fortune!

          • Busbus

            With all these comments, I didn’t even see your post until just now. I am so sorry for your loss, Kq. And I’m glad you were able to get the care you did.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I’m sorry for your loss! And for the additional trauma you had to go through to save your son from unnecessary suffering.

            I’ve been lucky enough to never (yet) need an abortion. I have, however, been involved in the decision to recommend a “late term” (usually second trimester but 20+ weeks) abortion a couple of times. It’s always been a sad decision, but, given the alternatives in each case, never a hard one.

          • Jessica S.

            Absolutely. I can’t remember which state – I want to say N. Dakota? – has ONE clinic. ONE. For the whole state. And I wouldn’t be shocked to know that other states have only one clinic. That’s going to have unintended effects.

            Do hospitals not perform abortions at all? Even in cases of medical necessity, to save the mother’s life? I honestly don’t know.

          • Young CC Prof

            Hospitals do perform medically necessary abortions, although, since ambulatory women tend to go to abortion clinics, more commonly it is medical management of a natural miscarriage.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Morbelli died of an amniotic fluid embolus. A rare complication of pregnancy, much more common in delivery than in abortion. The Maryland board of medicine ruled that Carhart did no wrong in this case. But I’m sure that the “pro-life” movement knows so much more about it than the medical establishment.

          I’m not sure why a generator is so significant to you. Most medical clinics and all hospitals in the midwest have generators as backup because tornadoes knock the grid down quite often. I expect that since terrorists have been targeting Carhart for years he would want some kind of defensible power supply as well.

  • oyvei

    That anyone can read this story and see those pictures and parachute in and defend what this woman did is absolutely mind-boggling.

  • M B

    I am a very independent person. I lived alone for many years and I am used to make my own decisions. I am a feminist too.

    When I got pregnant a lot of things changed. I was happy to risk my own life sometimes… Not anymore. I was happy to do unhealthy things sometimes… Not anymore. Now I am looking after someone else!!!!! Someone that is not independent and not able to make decisions yet and depends on me. Therefore I am looking after my baby the best I can, I am eating healthy, exercising regularly, going to bed early, not drinking a drop of booze, taking folic acid and not crossing the road without a green light.

    Not listening to my doctor’s advice is out of the question. I am following my allergy specialist advice and my OB advice to the word.

  • sofrustrated

    “I’m an invincible control freak”
    Yup. That pretty much sums up why your son is dead and shouldn’t be.

    How horrifyingly tragic.

    It would not surprise me AT ALL if she got pregnant again and attempted another vaginal birth. That seems about par for the course for this mindset.

  • Ob in OZ

    Interesting post (as in, I hate hearing these stories again and again), and excellent comments. One point tossed around but should be clarified. You cannot be forced to have a c-section (ok, court order aside but I guarantee she would not qualify for that extreme an approach…until maybe the end). So if she shows up at a hospital she would not be refused care no matter what the c-section/vbac policy. she would not be transfered because it would be risky. She would be admitted, offered c-s again and again, asked to be monitored, IV access etc, and hope that she accepts appropriate intervention. And if she didn’t, she would sit in a room in labour with appropriate personel on hand hoping she changes her mind. If someone has an example of a pregnant woman being refused admission to a hospital in labor, please tell me about it. I would love to know how they did it becasue there are plenty of patients I know are going to be difficult. So teach me how to keep them out!!!

    • Anj Fabian

      In the United States, any hospital that takes federal dollars must provide appropriate care for a woman in labor.

      That includes transferring the patient when indicated, but she can’t be denied care altogether.

    • T.

      They SHOULD refuse ammission to such people. Sorry. But why should the hospital ending up being sued for millions because idiot?

      • Lena

        I think they should be offered the exact care they want, on the condition that they sign a form that prevents them from suing if anything goes wrong.

        I’m actually all for malpractice suits and am against tort reform, but there needs to be an exception for pregnant women who insist on ignoring medical advice. They want to give birth in hospital but refuse every recommended intervention? Fine. Let them go bankrupt caring for a the brain-damaged child they created.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I think they should be offered the exact care they want, on the condition that they sign a form that prevents them from suing if anything goes wrong.

          It sounds reasonable, but it isn’t. The main thing that does is enable unscrupulous providers. That would far overwhelm the effect of protecting providers against nutjobs like these.

          The “I didn’t really understand the consequences” excuse might get overused, but then again, it is also true.

          Women (nor any patients) should not be expected to understand the nature of the risks completely – that is the Doctors’ responsibility. It just won’t work to absolve them from that.

        • Siri

          What if the woman has a really low IQ? What if she has a mental illness? What if she has been brainwashed by a cult? What if she is a victim of a controlling, abusive husband? You just get them to sign on the dotted line and sit back and watch the trainwreck? You can’t do that to people; it’s simply unworkable. None of us are competent to direct our own care, although some of us may be deluded into thinking we are. It’s still the professionals’ responsibility to protect and advise us to the best of their ability. Your proposed plan is far too harsh.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Plus, you can’t waive the rights of a third party (the child, in this case).

        • lilin

          Doctors are human beings. I wouldn’t – and couldn’t – turn a patient who has an emergency away from a hospital, but I’m not going to silently sit there and watch a woman, full of self-righteousness, kill her kid.

          • Lena

            I don’t think anyone should be turned away, but if a laboring women with a really shitty obstetric history refuses all interventions, then what? Either way she can’t -and shouldn’t be-forced to undergo treatment. At least signing a waiver will ensure no one gets sued because of her arrogance.

          • Stacy21629

            She should be told over and over and over and over by every OB and nurse and anesthesiologist and pediatrician on the floor the exact ways in which she is putting her child’s life in danger. And it should be extensively documented.

            Unfortunately, waivers don’t work. They just don’t. It sounds great, but they simply do not hold up in court no matter how they are worded.

          • Jessica S.

            “She should be told over and over and over and over by every OB and nurse and anesthesiologist and pediatrician on the floor the exact ways in which she is putting her child’s life in danger. And it should be extensively documented.”

            I completely agree. F*** her whining about not wanting to be bullied. Anyone with half a rational thought could see that the recommendations were based on her current case and not hospital ideology. They shouldn’t have to tiptoe around people, just as they can’t force care upon people reasonably sane enough (by legal requirements, I guess) to decline. If little missy doesn’t like it, she’s free to stick her fingers in her ears and shout “VAGINA, VAGINA, VAGINA!!” every time they come in to address her.

            I feel uncomfortable speaking of a woman in this manner who has lost her baby, in general at least. But I don’t have that discomfort here. She is clearly owning the results of this escapade and it’s sickening to me. It dissolves all my sensibilities. I just felt the need to add that disclaimer. :)

        • Dr Kitty

          No.
          Your proposal fails the ethics test on all grounds.
          Beneficence
          Non-maleficence
          Utility
          Autonomy

          You cannot sign away your rights and the rights of your child in the throes of labour.

          • Lena

            Except I’m talking very specifically of women who make these decisions long before they go into labor. Their minds are made up months in advance and if they can’t find a hosptial and OB who will cater to their whims they will find midwives as batshit as they are or go it alone. At least if they’re in a hospital, allowed to labor and birth how they want without anyone “bullying” them beyond initial recommendations, their babies will get immediate care when things go wrong, and no doctor has to worry about getting sued for her efforts. I don’t see the net harm, here.

            3 premature births.

            2 c-sections.

            A history of previa.

            Decides to homebirth.

            If this women had made it to the hospital in time to deliver a live but brain damaged baby she would have sued, and possibly won.

      • NoLongerCrunching

        Because the baby deserves the highest level of care.

      • Siri

        So refuse admission to a difficult mother and bugger the baby? What if the person whom you refuse admission turns out to be mentally ill? Even if someone is a bona fide idiot, should they be denied access and written off? You can’t decide to admit people on the basis of whether they are idiots or not. The world is full of idiots.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Her writing implied that she perceived being offered a c-section, especially more than once, as bullying and that one reason she wanted to labor at home until fully dilated was to avoid anyone asking her whether she would accept a c-section. As far as I can tell, there was never a question that she might be forced to take a c-section, only that she might be urged to have one more strongly than she was comfortable with.

    • Lion

      Here in South Africa we have an article in the newspaper every few months about women who arrive at hospitals in labour and nurses tell them they’re busy or weren’t booked in or just straight to go away, they give birth in the reception area (and are then made to clean it up) or outside on the grass or dust bowl. Different situation of course, but you did ask for an example of a woman in labour being refused care. Our health department does investigate and presumably some heads roll.

      • Ob in OZ

        Forgot how diverse a group writes comments. Similarly I’m aware of a Northern Africa country where a busy hospital turns you away if you’re too normal. Just wondering, do you have many patients who decline intervention once admitted and offered, and how is it handled?

        • Lion

          Hi, I don’t work in health care, so I can’t answer the question. Home birth is very fringe here, but our medical aid companies do cover it and cover an ambulance to hospital and c section at hospital. All our midwives are proper nurses though, we don’t have CPMs. Our c section rate in private hospitals is rumored to be around 70 percent, so I don’t think too many people are refusing any form of treatment. I have had two natural births in hospital, labored in water, had an epidural with the one, all my wishes were taken into account. Our government hospitals c section rate is apparently around 60 percent. Basically, in any given mothers group it isn’t that common to meet another mother who didn’t have a c section. If you want to have a natural birth you have to look food a doctor willing to let you try. Some state out right that they only do c sections. My only request when I met with doctors was that I be allowed to try for a natural birth but that if there was a problem the doctor would do what I was paying for and intervene. We do have our share of women having unassisted childbirth at home, not vaccinating etc, but they’re a tiny number of people and I actually suspect some form of mental illness with their conspiracy theory outlooks on life.

          • Ob in OZ

            Thank you for your perspective. I would not have thought the c-section rate was that high, but then it is accounting for the presumption that most deliveries take place outside the hospital setting and not by choice. I think it shows that those who are able to attend a hospital are able to prioritise their baby’s welfare and go for a c-s if wanted/needed. Surprising that you would have to “fight” for a low risk but supported delivery, but I would wonder if they have to prioritize their care differently. Meaning if your low risk and normal, we don’t have the bed space and staffing to wait for you to have a natural birth becuase we need the room for patients already experiencing complications. If that is the case it puts you in a very difficult position

  • CK

    I was just looking at a photo of her beautiful son. The one thing that strikes my heart with sadness when seeing these beautiful, perfect babies is just how sorry I am. It just isn’t meant to be. He shouldn’t have blue lips. He should be crying, and wiggling. That beautiful boy was meant to live. And despite it all… I’m so sorry to his family.

    If you read this… I’m so sorry.

  • Renee Martin

    When I think of all the medical care this woman WASTED, and arrogantly used, only to turn around and bash them, it makes me furious. Talk about ZERO appreciation of all that she had available, and that she used up.

    FFS! She had the use of EXPERTS, three of them, of the highest quality! She had a fully staffed hospital available. She used every bit of the available resources, probably 100x what most other women use! I bet she took docs and nurses away from their patients so they could attend this train wreck. I am sure she never thought about how her actions effect others.

    She had a stat CS, which used up an OR, experts to do all the surgery, blood for transfusion, 3 docs, a bunch of nurses, an anesthesiologist, and on and on. I am sure there was also a peds team on board just in case the baby had signs of life.A roomful of experts, tens of thousands of dollars of quality care.

    Seriously, I want to know- WHY she even bothered with the hospital based team of CNM, OB, and MFM?. Why even bother with planning a hospital VBA2C- even if it was just for the actual delivery?

    When I think of the MILLIONS of women who would KILL for this opportunity? Even some women in the USA cannot access this level of care, let lone in the rest of the world.

    • Busbus

      I’m not a doctor, but it sounds to me as if without expert medical care, this woman would most likely have NO living children.

      • Karen in SC

        THIS^^ She had the benefit of expert medical care to give her three healthy children and somehow this time, she believed that the doctors were lying to her, the warnings were lies, and she could still get her vaginal birth. Because that is what she wanted.

  • Renee Martin

    What is it about having a baby come out a vagina that is worth DEATH? It is just a vagina, not the end of a rainbow, or the gates to heaven, FFS.

    Then there is this:
    “My son most likely died within the first 10 minutes though we will never know and for that I am grateful. My CNM arrived around midnight as planned and she couldn’t find baby’s heartbeat.”

    Her innocent baby suffered, and suffer he did. Even ten minutes is a long time when things are going badly, leading to fatality! He probably bled out and suffocated- all to avoid a CS. (And sadly, they left her uterus in, so she can try again- I am sure she will. Maybe she will turn up on the “VBAC after rupture” board…)

    What is with the CNM that wasn’t even there? Either she was negligent, or she refused to be the MW for this disaster, which would make more sense. I wonder if she actually told her laboring at home was ok? I would bet anything that they all said with exasperation “no, we cannot force you to have a CS if you come in pushing”.

    This is not approval, it is a fact, and I am sure it was warned against. No OB/MFM would approve of this. I can see a CNM thinking that she is supporting a woman’s choice, even if its the wrong one, but encouraging it? Hard to believe any CNM working in a hospital would be ok with this.

    Defending her by blaming the hospital is total bullshit too. They gave her the very best care, she even had an MFM! She chose wrong, and this was entirely foreseeable. All of her hospital history? I bet its all bull shit too. Usually I believe a woman when they say they were pushed into a certain course of action (even if it was the right one), because it happened to me, but this lady? I cannot imagine she went in there with any reasonable attitude. Her perceptions so colored by her beliefs that she will see what she wants to, IMO.

    • Jessica S.

      “Maybe she will turn up on the “VBAC after rupture” board…”

      For some reason, reading this made me think that their lives must be pretty drama free if they’re willing to actively seek out the train wreck that a VBAC after rupture would likely be. And for what? It’s not as if there aren’t plenty of highly skilled specialists happy to do everything they can to help bring a live baby into the world for a mother who has suffered a rupture. The only catch is that it’s going to be HIGHLY MANAGED and “medicalized”. (I hate that term.) It exposes the truth of what these women are after: an experience, with a live baby being the cherry on top.

  • Ennis Demeter

    Sometimes I have dark thoughts about these extreme cases. When I read accounts of very religious women being reckless with their childbirth, I wonder if losing the ability to bear more children is a hidden agenda.

    • Trixie

      I sure would have been terrified to risk pregnancy again after the second one.

      • Kupo

        I plan to stop at two. Until amnesia and delusion sets in again, I guess.

    • Jessica S.

      Hmmm, I’ve never considered it from that angle. Very interesting. You’ve given me something to chew on. :)

    • prolifefeminist

      Honestly, I wouldn’t be that surprised. I know several women who’ve married into essentially religious cults…controlling “godly” husband, refusal to use any method of family planning whatsoever, and the role of the woman is wife and mother, period. Anyone who questions the tenets of the cult is punished and/or thrown out (usually it’s a teenager/young adult who gets kicked out for rebelling; the wives rarely do, probably because they don’t want to risk losing their children).

      I know one woman (we went to college together) who married a man who is like this (and is an abusive alcoholic on top of it all – but insists that every decision he makes is to be followed because women are to obey their husbands). Anyway, my friend is utterly miserable but she is so defeated that she doesn’t have the will to leave. She’s had 6 babies, all at home, all with crap home birth midwives, and the last 4 she had serious underlying medical issues (hypothyroidism, anemia, and just overall malnourished). Her stupid midwife didn’t hesitate to charge her fee and encourage a home birth. Thankfully my friend has survived thus far, but she has been beaten down and broken and I absolutely do not for a second think that there are not women out there who risk dangerous deliveries either consciously or subconsciously. I don’t think my friend purposely makes dangerous birth choices; I think that her husband pressures her to HB and she’s so broken down that she just doesn’t care what happens to her or the baby. It’s horribly sad and infuriating, all of it.

  • fiftyfifty1

    Funny how this mom was dead set against c-section when it was just the life of her son on the line. But then after she ruptured and it was her life on the line she consented to it. Which is fine. I believe the life of the mom is more important than the life of the baby. But let’s be clear here about the priorities: My life >my experience>my son’s life

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

      Is it even a c – section at the point you’re removing a dead baby floating in his mother’s abdomen up near her spleen? Where it is not floating in amniotic fluid, but his mother’s blood? Oh, but her uterus did it’s job.

      Mel, I just puked too. Ain’t only you.

      • Trixie

        Is it just me, or does she sound a bit proud that her uterus “did its job”?

        • Hush

          Trixie, this sort of off hand nasty comment is the sort of thing that sticks with people forever and haunts them and makes them feel ashamed for their own honestly and thinking… If I were you I would not say such things about other human beings… It is wrong.

          • Who?

            I think when Trixie is weighing up her choices, she’ll feel a lot better about herself than will someone who left a baby to die so that she could have the birth experience she wanted.

            This mother should feel thoroughly ashamed of herself.

            Spare some of your sympathy for Griffin and the poor medical staff who had to fish him out of his mother’s abdomen, and then took the time to clean him up so she could have her photos. And incidentally for his dad who seems to have completely disappeared out of this story.

          • Hush

            Not buying into this line of emotive crap. You just don’t want anyone to own up to how nasty it is to sit here and judge this poor woman. It’s like you guys are the meannest mean girls ever.. picking apart and tarring and feathering a mother when she falls at the bottom of the barrel for the blame. Where is all of your outrage btw for the children of my friend who died because of a careless NCB group and a negligent midwife and most none of you all are even kinda interested in it?? Hundreds and hundreds of replies to me simply arguing with you about this topic but I mention a real life person who I know for certain is dead and a few measly replies… You all do not value life. You value your own feeling of superiority and assholery.

          • Young CC Prof

            I’d be interested as anything in that incident. I bet if you tell Dr. Amy enough details, she’d write it up. Without sharing your name or breaching your confidentiality in any way.

          • Hush

            You guys would blame HER. I couldn’t see that happen.

          • guest

            Why? I don’t understand why you don’t see the logic? There’s plenty of stories on here with sympathy towards a mom who was duped, tricked, and hurt both by hospitals and by non-hospital-based birth workers. This just IS NOT THE CASE. This lady was delusional and self-aggrandizing.

          • Hush

            Maybe I am just grieving. I don’t view this woman as any less deserving of pity than anyone else who has been hurt and then duped.

          • Certified Hamster Midwife

            Neither do most people here.

          • guest

            I am really sorry to hear that. And I am so sorry for your loss. I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to lash out when we’re hurting.

            I agree with the others, I think Dr. Amy would be very interested in hearing what happened to your friend. FWIW, my own mother had several homebirths in the late eighties. I get the decision-making behind the choices. I even can see where some homebirths could putatively be reasonable, especially if you don’t know the stats. We need sites like this to present a critical analysis.

            Honestly, it might be helpful to take a step back for awhile. This site is definitely a black and white, outsider’s view of things. And we need that sometimes. I probably wouldn’t invite that woman here while actively grieving. I get why this would all make you angry.

          • Hush

            It has actually been a while since it happened. I just didn’t really grieve because I wasn’t really in her real life. I was “just an online friend” as they say. I have felt a nagging sense of being really disturbed and upset and reminded a lot about it since it happened, though. The group she got advice in that we belonged together, it didn’t even mention her death? It was like it never happened. Just, erased. It just feels so wrong to me that no one seems to know or care about this.

          • guest

            I certainly don’t see how #notburiedtwice wouldn’t apply to mother’s lost to NCB anymore than infants. Please do try and contact Dr. Amy. And don’t worry about bringing this up here. I’m sure you’ll find sympathetic ears every time.

          • Trixie

            Yes. This is the cognitive dissonance of the natural childbirth movement. Anything that doesn’t fit their narrative, like the trail of dead and injured babies and mothers, is swept under the rug. We are fed up with this. That’s why we are here.

            Please, stick around and read. Poke around at some old posts. I think we are your tribe and you just haven’t realized it yet.

          • Trixie
          • OBPI Mama

            It is so common and sucks so bad. If one has a bad homebirth and things go wrong, the midwife gets protected, the story gets brushed under the rug, they want to erase it all. In my case, I didn’t want to give homebirth a bad name, was told not to scare other moms with a bad homebirth story, didn’t want to be kicked out the homebirth circle was in as I was beginning to make friends, etc. Kathy Mitchell, my former midwife, has had at least 6 traumatic births under her belt and no one that uses her knows about them until I mention them. There is this veil of silence and it needs broken! It is so wrong.

          • Busbus

            I am sorry, Hush, for your loss, and for your friend and her family.

          • Mariana Baca

            I’m sorry for your loss. This sort of preventable loss by the NCB movement is exactly what this site is designed to warn women against. It is good to air out your grief and try to get closure or a voice for your friend duped by this movement. It sounds like the group you are a part of is trying to brush off this preventable death away, and nobody here would ever want that.

          • Anj Fabian

            She has my pity. Sympathy? Not so much.

          • yugaya

            I do not pity her. I have empathy for her, the same way I have empathy for any victim of systematic ideological brainwashing.

            I am sorry for your loss and I know exactly the kind of irrational guilt you feel over what happened to your friend. A lot of people commenting here carry that what could or should I have said or done burden, myself included.

          • Hush

            The mom is dead guest. Not the baby.

          • Young CC Prof

            Given the little bit that you mentioned, that her midwife ignored dangerously high blood pressure and there were no other medical professionals involved at that time, then no, I wouldn’t blame her. I’d blame (and ideally sue) the midwife.

            In this case, multiple doctors told this woman that what she wanted was terribly dangerous, and she deliberately went out hunting for one of the few midwives that would take on a client like her. (Some home birth midwives would have turned her away!)

            I do have enormous empathy for her loss, and I absolutely blame the midwife, but I still believe that the mother knowingly made bad choices that led to this tragedy.

            Fifteen years ago, a childhood friend of mine drove off the highway and into a tree just a few days before he should have graduated high school. All three of the youths in that car were DOA. He and his buddies made bad choices that day, they were driving way too fast. He was always doing reckless things like that, and at the time I was pretty angry with him for it. It didn’t make me hate him, though.

            I can feel sympathy towards someone and still believe that they made bad choices.

          • Hush

            Poor choices, okay, sure, but the evisceration I cannot cope with right now. It feels like things are being said that a mother could read and become despondent. She freaked out in her blog about one letter of a sort of harsh friend. This blog is like 50 people directly blaming her, some in REALLY awful ways. It’s waaayyyy harsh.

          • Siri

            She wouldn’t BE eviscerated! It’s starting to sound like an excuse on your part. Put up or shut up, Hush!

          • Anj Fabian

            I burned your condolence card? That post?

            Yes, the friend who tried to discourage her from doing whatever she did sent her a card telling her something. I don’t know what, but it was likely along the lines of “I tried to spare you this tragedy, but you wouldn’t listen. I’m sorry, but you did this to yourself.”.

            You know what’s REALLY interesting about that post? What could the blogger have been planning that someone would think was dangerous? Laboring at home for a few hours? That doesn’t seem so risky. Staying at home until the last possible minute? That’s risky, but not as risky as the idea that she was going to have a home birth. That would be as risky as she could get and while she never states that was what she was trying for, why would she have enlisted the help of a doula and a midwife?

          • Trixie

            She wrote those things, on the internet, under her real name.

            Dr. Amy’s goal is to get people to read these stories so that hopefully it saves some lives in the future.

          • Busbus

            You know, I feel for this woman, too. I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to have to live with this kind of sorrow and crushing guilt. I wish she could have made those bad choices and still went home with a healthy baby. I wish her and her family better days ahead.

            But this is not just about her. This is about other women who buy into that crap, and about those who encourage it. This is about all the message boards that promote taking these kinds of risks, and about the women who get caught up on this way of thinking about birth. For some (many?) of them, heating about the risks from their medical providers isn’t enough, because they have been convinced not to trust these doctors. Maybe taking about the reality of what they are about to do – risk their baby’s life for an experience – will get through to at least some of them.

          • Hush

            Thing is, my friend did make some poor choices. She knew her blood pressure was high. She just kept being convinced by her midwife and the group and herself that it was NBD. It was like the twilight zone where you are talking and talking and go look in the mirror and your mouth is whited over.

          • guest

            I feel like that’s completely different. I would have no idea if my blood pressure is concerning or not. I remember being pregnant and suddenly there was just so much I didn’t know. One day I felt this huge pressure in my groin, maybe 28 weeks pregnant. My doctor had me go in to get checked, but if he had said, no worries stay home, I probably would have. (All was fine, but he had had a lady at 24 weeks with the same symptoms go and find she was 5cm that week) All of which is to say, if her midwife told her she was fine – I don’t know why we’d blame the mom. In my book that’s medical malpractice, among other things.

          • Hush

            –I– knew it was dangerous. I said so. A few times. I told her privately and publicly but then suddenly she didn’t talk to me about her blood pressure anymore so I really didn’t know it was still high. I thought maybe something had worked to lower it.. The stroke that killed her after her baby was born? That was my clue that she had stopped talking to me about it because she didn’t want to hear what I had to say about that anymore. Of course, this is a lot of suspicion and not a lot of proof. I don’t actually know that her BP was high at the end of her pregnancy. I do know it was high at the middle and her midwife knew and was like whatever shrug. I’m not three doctors.. but I’m not really someone I’d ignore who said hey you know blood pressure is something I used to take daily (my dad taught me to take his BP because he has high blood pressure) your BP it’s not safe. I just don’t want her eviscerated. She was a good person…. Like this mother is probably a freaking good person. Good people sometimes just make mistakes..

          • guest

            Please don’t blame yourself. If my friend warned me – I don’t know, my friend isn’t my healthcare provider. I can’t see anywhere in your descriptions where your friend made definably “poor” choices.

            I agree, good people can make mistakes. Although, I guess I would think the term “good people” is kind of irrelevant to this discussion. Where do we draw the line? Do we need to draw a line? I mean, this lady was selfish. My sister wants to have a homebirth. She knows its more dangerous. If something happens to her baby I would never, ever, ever say anything like “I told you so.” But we all know she’s making a decision that is for her benefit and not her baby’s. She acknowledges it would be safer in a hospital. In a decision like that, it’s simply a zero-sum game.

            Your friend’s case sounds very different. She was trusting a so-called professional, and the professional failed. If you choose a provider to manage your care, and you follow their advice, the onus is on them. (Unlike this case, where she chose and discarded the advice she didn’t like until she found someone who echoed her own beliefs – that CNM should lose her license, but the mom intentionally found her after being warned over and over and over).

          • Siri

            And most of the loss mothers who comment regularly on here, will admit to making mistakes too. Doesn’t mean they get blamed for it; we all make mistakes all the time. The ones that get blamed are the ones that don’t recognise their mistakes, make them again, encourage others to make the same deadly mistakes, and thereby present a risk to other mothers and babies. Big difference! I drove drunk, my kid died, so why don’t you drive drunk too? It’s so liberating! I still do it now with my new baby! It’s the best! Lemme show you how!

            Lots of us had homebirths; lots of us work in the relevant field; it’s a really diverse group, with participants from several countries. I am so, so sorry for your friend and her children, and for you too. Please ask Dr Amy to write about it; we’d all want to hear the full story, and I promised every comment will be sympathetic.

          • Anj Fabian

            You can’t save everyone.

            You can’t save everyone, especially if they don’t want to be saved. The comments by the docs who offered valid treatment options to substance abusers, only to have the abusers refuse them? Couldn’t save those people because they don’t want to be saved.

          • Trixie

            I’m very sorry for your friend’s death. It’s inexcusable on the midwife’s part. Please write up more details and send them to Dr. Amy privately.

            This is an entirely different situation. This mother is a hospital RN. She has the training to know and understand exactly what she was choosing to do and exactly how dangerous it was. She understood exactly what the OB and MFM were telling her. Instead of listening to them, she hired a birth hobbyist doula and stayed home by herself.

            She’s still telling other people to go ahead and UBAC.

          • OBPI Mama

            I just read that your friend died. Oh my gosh, I am so sorry! Your friend was probably told by her midwife to stop talking with you about it and to ignore anyone who was saying anything negative. That is a common thing. So sorry.

          • Amy M

            I’m sorry to hear about your loss, that’s very sad. I wouldn’t blame your friend. I’d blame the midwife who convinced her that high BP was just fine and dandy, and who probably suggested that she avoid anyone and anything who told her otherwise.

          • Jessica S.

            That’s awful. You must have – and still do, I’m sure – felt completely helpless when she died. You were a good friend, the best kind, for trying to get through to her. I hope you believe that.

          • Siri

            Hush, many of the regular commenters on here ARE loss mothers themselves. Why would they stay here if they felt blamed by a bunch of mean girls? Your comments just show that you haven’t read nearly enough on here to get a true impression of what goes on. And the hundreds of replies have been triggered by your hundreds of antagonistic comments, many extremely annoying due to your lack of any professional knowledge. Plus, you show no sign of budging from your extreme position. I would advise you to leave this particular thread for a while, read around on here for a few days, then jump back in with a more open and reasonable attitude. You’ll get a very different response! This bunch of commenters is actually a really decent and warmhearted set of people of all ages, sexes, backgrounds. There’s a place for you here if you want it, but you won’t find it if you just carry on haranguing everyone.

          • OBPI Mama

            Oh man! I totally know what you mean. My BP started creeping up at the end of my first pregnancy. I was scared, but the midwife made it seem like she had it under control (had me taking an array… and I mean an array… like 40 pills a day) of herbs and tinctures to keep it down, plus a ton of protein shakes. Later she mentioned that had I been at a hospital, they would have done a c-section right away after a certain appt. where my BP was very high. Like it would have been the worst thing in the world… a c-section. When labor started, my BP was normal and so that didn’t end up being a problem… it was the whole shoulder dystocia thing.
            I can totally sympathize with your friend about being basically tricked and lied to. That sucks.

          • MLE

            40 a day????

          • Irène Delse

            Homeopathic pills maybe? If we are talking about what they call “granules”, the pills are very small and the recommended dosage be ten or twenty at a time. Not that it would be any good of course. These pills are 100% sugar.

          • OBPI Mama

            I wrote them down with the numbers of in my son’s baby book for some reason. They were vitamins and whatnot… 5-W, garlic pills, B-6, Liver, tons of Mastergland, Prenatal, Spirulina, BP Formula, Vitamin C, Evening Primrose Oil, Rescue Remedy

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            That’s so sad, and I have nothing but sympathy there. I didn’t realize you’d reposted her story on this thread when I commented above – as we approach 1000 comments in just about 24 hours, stuff will get missed. I absolutely empathize with your unheeded warning and don’t blame your friend.

          • prolifefeminist

            My HB midwife glossed over my high BP too, even though I’d had PIH with all three of my previous pregnancies and was 41.5 wks with the current one. Instead of telling me to go to the hospital, or even telling me to go get lab work done, she told me to use Rescue Remedy, take magnesium supplements, and drink a mixture of cream of tartar and lemon juice. Completely asinine, but in my ignorance, I followed her advice – after all, she was an “expert in normal birth.” She was a CPM who’d received awards from MANA and was adored within the NCB/HB community. I trusted her.

            I’m so very, very sorry for what happened to your friend, Hush. I read the stories on here of mothers and babies dying from HB and I realize, sickeningly, how easily it could have been me. I was a 42.5 wk, hypertensive, macrosomic-baby, HBAC-attempting disaster waiting to happen, but I got lucky and my son is now snuggled up next to me, very much alive and healthy (thanks to an eventual c-section). My heart mourns for those who were lied to and paid the ultimate price. And my blood boils that the NCB movement tells women over and over that their worth is in their ability to give birth vaginally, and that “good mamas” should ignore medical experts and instead listen to their “inner wisdom.” I once fell for that too, and although it’s humiliating to admit, ultimately I was the one responsible for making the final decision to trust my midwife over my OB.

            I think in this particular case here, of baby Griffin, it’s really difficult to absolve the mom of guilt because she had SO many experts warning her in great detail not to attempt a vaginal birth. I think this case is quite different from many others, such as your friend’s, where the midwife was the main or only “expert” and her advice to the mom was not to worry, everything is fine. It’s one thing to believe that, and quite another to be told by numerous experts, including a CNM, OB, and MFM, that your uterus is extremely likely to rupture and kill your baby, and choose to proceed anyway. Night and day, IMO.

            Btw, I planned a VBA2C in the hospital with an OB with my last pregnancy. Agreement was that as long as everything staying within normal limits (normal size baby, not post dates, no hypertension, etc.) a VBA2C in a tertiary care center was reasonable. When I again developed high blood pressure, this time at 31 weeks, my OB immediately sent me to the hospital. This time I developed severe pre-eclampsia and after a foley bulb induction and stalled TOLAC, my OB offered to break my water to see if that would help me dilate past 4cms. I declined and instead chose a c-section. I didn’t want to subject a preemie (who would already be struggling to survive) to the additional risks of an infection or cord prolapse. At that point a VBA2C no longer seemed reasonable to me. We calmly delivered a healthy premature baby by c-section, who did remarkably well in the NICU and is now a healthy, developmentally on-track toddler. It’s hard to wrap my head around taking the risks that Griffin’s mother did. The loss of a baby is just…it’s just so massive and final, compared to the loss of a birth experience.

          • araikwao

            See, that kind of story does not get the same judgement that has bothered you, because the mother attempted to voice her concerns, but was shut down by an incompetent provider. And you should be able to trust a healthcare professional – isn’t that why you see them? Because they are trained and paid to be an expert in the area? That is such a devastating story, and in complete contrast to the one in this post.

          • Jessica S.

            That’s horrible, Hush. I wouldn’t think to blame you friend for one second. Just reading that they were down playing the risks makes my blood boil about those charged with taking care of her.

          • Hush

            TY by the way for sharing your personal story about a loss with me that was nice of you…

          • Mariana Baca

            Read most of the posts on this site: the midwife and NCB is overwhelmingly blamed.

          • Trixie

            No. There are lots of commenters here who are victims of homebirth midwifery, and whose children are. They are not mocked or blamed by any regular commenters here. Quite the opposite.

          • OBPI Mama

            Hush, my son is a victim of a homebirth midwife (severe birth injury) and I have received more compassion here than I have on any other boards. They encourage me to share vs. what other boards did (which was encourage me to keep quiet and not ruin the name of homebirth… a common occurence with homebirth trauma mamas). I fully admit that I was arrogant and selfish and made the wrong decision in choosing homebirth (I was caught up in the lies, lies, lies) and my son paid the price (he was able to be brought back to life by some miracle and I can only imagine how hard it’d be if he wasn’t able). I lived in denial for a good 2-3 years, but when I moved past that and really understood the gravity of it all… it was hard. It took time to wade through the lies I believed for so many years, to own up to my mistakes, etc. This will be a long road for the lady who was posted about. That is why I wondered aloud what she will think in 2 years.

            Anyway, the regular commenters here are livid about my former midwife and have had nothing but empathy for my son and I. Again, much more so than the NCB community.

          • anion

            It sounds from what you’ve said that she was the victim of inadequate care, and that while her choice to have a HB midwife may have been a contributing factor, the actual midwife’s ignorance is to blame.

            We commenters are smart enough to see the difference. There have been numerous HB deaths written about here in which no one truly blamed the mother–we may have wished she hadn’t fallen for the NCB lies and made a bad decision, but we completely believe she was misled and deserves our sympathy.

            The difference is that those women made a poor choice because they were misled; they didn’t generally ignore expert advice over and over again. They didn’t put their experiences above their babies’ lives repeatedly. They didn’t rely on and then insult medical professionals repeatedly. And, especially, they didn’t go online afterward insisting that it was the fault of those evil doctors who wouldn’t let her do a reckless thing, and who told her that her baby could die and turned out to be exactly correct in that.

            And even then, we have sympathy for her, and we have sympathy for many like her–there have been plenty of such instances here. This is just a particularly egregious case.

          • http://whatismyreferer.com/ MikoT

            most none of you all are even kinda interested in it

            You are kidding right?
            Have you even read any of the other posts on this site?

          • Who?

            In no way is this mother at the bottom of the barrel for blame, she is right at the top, standing on it waving her arms. You bet she’s being judged, for her arrogance and the catastrophe it caused.

            Of course the risk is that others planning similar approaches will be reinforced in their view that anyone who disagrees with them is ‘mean’, and so feel cornered and ‘forced’ to pursue their course to the same bitter end. So much emphasis on rights, so little on responsibility.

            I’ve never been moved to comment here before, though often read the posts and replies. This story is so sad and horrifying and was entirely avoidable. I have all the sympathy in the world for Griffin and for those who were traumatised by the fallout, but it runs dry for the person who caused it.

          • Who?

            Also meant to say the loss of your friend sounds terrible; I’m sorry to say I didn’t see your earlier comments about it.

            If you look more at this site you’ll see stories like that you describe, with empathy and sympathy for traumatised families and deceased and damaged babies. You’ll also see people like yourself, who don’t buy the homebirth line, and would like to see the carnage stop.

          • birthbuddy

            I own up to judging this woman. Her baby should be alive today. She was selfish and the baby is dead.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Because we believe that it happened, and it sucks. Sympathies on your loss.

            Please write Dr. Amy with details that she can confirm. She’ll post it and add it to the list of homebirth deaths that she keeps, and we will all be outraged anew at NCB and incompetent midwives. Your story simply got lost in the hundreds and hundreds of comments here- seriously, this thread is going to break 1000 if it hasn’t already. But a primary post won’t be lost.

          • Siri

            You know, Hush, comments like this make you sound like a properly nasty person, which I’m sure you’re not. There seems no limit to what you will call everyone else, and yet they’re the mean ones? Many of these commenters devote their lives to saving mothers and babies, and you have the gall to accuse them of not valuing life?!

          • Karen in SC

            Sorry about your friend. That is horrible. Is it on this post? (I’ve been asleep, it’s now morning in my timezone.)

            For a maternal death, we tend to do the same. If possible, the midwife is named as a warning to others.

            If you commented on an older post, it’s unfortunately easy for those comments to get lost on this Disqus system.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            I’m judging. Judging, judging, judging. She’s a selfish woman whose reckless behavior led to the death of her child.

            I’m judging you too, Hush. You’re a hypocrite. You sit there and judge all medical professionals but shake your finger at us for judging this woman.

          • Carolina

            Have you spent any time on this site? It is chock FULL of posts about NCB idiocy that leads to death and injury. That’s 90-something percent of the content. What do you think this post is? It’s a post about a woman who bought into the NCB line of crap hook, line and sinker. And her baby died as a direct result.
            Honestly, you need to stop attacking and start reading.

          • anion

            Thanks for calling my reply, in which I offered sympathy and genuinely tried to support you, “measly.”

            And I believe there weren’t many comments replying to you because we didn’t have/know the whole story. I looked at the obit, and Googled your friend. Her beautiful children broke my heart. But there were no facts about the circumstances of her death beyond your statement about her BP–not even how high it was–so there was little for us to comment on.

            I suggest you email Dr. Amy with the facts, and she may actually do a separate post about it if there’s enough verifiable info. Or if you want to write a comment with the whole story, beyond simply “My friend’s midwife said her BP was fine, but it was too high and she died,” you will likely get more responses.

            No one here was uninterested, there just wasn’t much to comment on.

          • Hush

            Bitter, bitter.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            I also replied with deep sympathy and concern. Also, that story wasn’t posted on this thread, so it’s a bit much to expect everyone to remember it, especially when you’ve been bloating the comments here defaming the very people who would most likely have saved your friend. I am still very sorry she died, and I hope you WILL send details to Dr. Amy in hopes she may highlight that preventable death.

            But that isn’t what thus thread is about. So it isn’t what we’re all talking about.

          • Jessica S.

            Yes, definitely send the info to Dr. Amy!

            ETA: I’m echoing your sentiment, Kq, not instructing you thusly. :)

          • Hush

            Bloating it, eh?

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            Way to totally miss the point. AGAIN. YES, you are bloating this comment thread. You have bullheadedly returned to your irrelevant TO THIS CASE claims about VBAC/VBA2C bans, mean doctors and personal agency. You’ve insisted a group of people who have repeatedly been sympathetic and empathetic about the death of your friend would demonize her, despite multiple, thoughtful comments to the contrary. You have consistently slammed doctors, nurses, hospitals and policies with rhetoric, actively ignoring facts that contradict your position, reframing your argument and denying you’ve reframed it. You better believe that’s bloating the comments.

            Oh, but the system is bad and we’re all mean girls and you JUST KNOW what we’d do. How about you just hush already.

          • Hush

            Fine. I will.

          • moto_librarian

            I did post a response to you on the thread where you told the story. I think it’s awful, and yes, the midwives should absolutely be punished! Honestly, I had forgotten that you posted it.

          • Amazed

            Where did you post it? You expect us to find it among more than 1000 comments here (by the way, there’s been a problem with the comment section since yesterday and many of us cannot load older comments) and comment on it like we do on the very post that is very visible on the top of this page, detailed and supported by what the moron herself wrote? My, you are quite determined to picture us as the evil witches.

            This said, I am sorry for your friend and her children. I do believe that there are mothers who are taken advantage of.

            I also believe that you’re so full of shit that even your eyes are brown, St Hush.

          • Jessica S.

            Hush, I was having major issues with Discus last night, and I couldn’t view more than maybe a third of the comments. It’s still a bit screwy today. I guarantee you, no one glosses over such things, and if I had read it (hopefully I’ll find it??) I would have absolutely responded. I’m sorry that you’ve lost a friend. Please let us know if there’s anything we can do to help.

          • Trixie

            And for the siblings of this poor baby.

          • Siri

            But it’s the truth, Hush.

          • Amazed

            Funny how you are so happy saying much worse things about thousand of human beings who only had the best interests of this selfish moron and her baby in mind.Alas, they were ready to do the unthinkable. Sacrificing the birth experience for no better reason than a healthy baby. Acting out of policy, traumatising this mother whom you’ve made into some kind of heroine by doing the best for her and her children by convincing her husband to cooperate… but hey, they are evil. And St Hush saying it about them… It’s right.

          • Trixie

            She wrote it, not me. She chose an HBA2C out of the belief that her uterus would expel a baby. In the natural childbirth movement, knowing your body is not a lemon is important.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            Shame isn’t a dirty word. Being ashamed of your actions/words/choices isn’t always a bad thing. I have many things I am deeply ashamed of – that haunt me. Some of those “haunts” are indeed things people said about my bad choices.

            I’m glad for it. That spurred me to change. That haunting also keeps me mindful of what I say and do going forward.

            This mother NEEDS to recognize her mistake and NEEDS to change.

          • prolifefeminist

            I love this post, Kumquat. Love it.

            I too would rather face my screwups and learn from them than pretend they didn’t happen and learn nothing. I hope in time Griffin’s mother is able to face her mistake, forgive herself, and change.

        • Siri

          It isn’t just you. That’s exactly how she sounds. And I’m not a native English speaker.

        • Jessica S.

          Yes. That was my first thought, too.

      • Haelmoon

        Technically you are correct. Proper terminology is a laparotomy, removal of fetus and repair of uterine rupture. If we don’t open the uterus, it’s technically not a c-section. I once was involved with a rare case of a viable abdominal ectopic pregnancy. That baby was delivered via laparotomy, not a c-section. Semantics though.

        • Jessica S.

          Incredible! Were both the baby and mom ok?

          • prolifefeminist

            Yea, that is pretty incredible! I had no idea an extra-uterine pregnancy could be viable long enough to be delivered. What are the mechanics of that? What does the placenta attach to in a case like that?

            What a fascinating (and difficult!) job you have, Haelmoon! Amazing.

          • Stacy21629

            “What does the placenta attach to in a case like that?”

            Anywhere there’s a blood supply:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_pregnancy

          • prolifefeminist

            Wow, that is incredible. Thanks Stacy. Here’s what I’m wondering – the article mentions that deformities are common due to the lack of amniotic fluid. I thought that fluid was necessary for lung development…so how could a baby survive such a thing?

          • Stacy21629

            I honestly have no idea other than the body is an amazing thing sometimes. I don’t believe it’s “built for birth” but the things we manage sometimes are hard to believe. :)

            Maybe someone with more/different letters after their name can explain.

          • Mer

            There was a show on several years ago about 4 different pregnancies like that and how it happened and how the babies were able to grow and the difficulties in keeping mom alive when baby was delivered. IIRC one of the babies was actually one of those infamous “stone” babies because he couldn’t be born and the mother was in an area without any advanced care. Anyways, my point was that in all of them, the amniotic sac was intact and the only body part that ruptured was moms tube. Other than what I saw on TV though, I have no clue!

          • Amazed

            We had a similar case here about a year ago. A rural woman went to the ER with stomach complaints, ended up with a living baby carried full term in her abdomen.

          • Haelmoon

            Amazingly yes. The placenta was attached to the top of the uterus, which was part of the reason it was difficult to diagnosis. It was a rare secondary abdominal pregnancy – the pregnancy started in the cornua (place where the tubes meet the uterus), ruptured, but continue to grow the placenta on the outside. This was confirmed on the pathological specimen, because there was placenta in the uterus. It wasn’t realized until 32 weeks (she was in hospital for a “previa” as it looked on ultrasound). The water broke into her abdomen, and the baby was imaged under the liver. Not surprisingly, this was very uncomfortable. An urgent MRI made the diagnosis. She had a laparotomy, removal of viable fetus and subtotal hysterectomy. Mom went home in under a week, baby was in hospital for 7 weeks, had a funny shaped head for awhile, but did very well.

          • Stacy21629

            Wow I love modern medicine. Thank you for what you do.

          • Jessica S.

            My word, that’s incredible!

    • Hush

      This comment is downright evil. I hope this poor woman never reads it.

      • guest

        Wah? Pointing out someone’s priorities is “downright evil?” You don’t seem to understand that people should be responsible for their choices. Heck, you advocate autonomy for women. I agree. But that means that when I make a lousy choice, I am the one that is responsible for that choice. The buck stops with me. Not my doctor, not my nurse — me.

        I get that this would probably be a hard thing for this mom to read, but she’s living in lala land. Regardless of whether the doctor’s bullied her or WHATEVER, she made a choice based on her personal preferences for birth, not the safety of her child. She’s 100% entitled to make that decision (and she did, by the way), but crowing about how wonderful her decisions were, when it resulted in the death of a human being whose life she was responsible for. I think that certainly deserves some critical responses.

        I’m sure there are some cases out there where a woman’s autonomy was stripped away. Heck, it’s arguable that many of the CPM-related cases do exactly that by withholding informed consent. This is precisely a case where a woman’s autonomy WAS respected – right into a tiny coffin.

        • Hush

          The comment is evil. It implies that the mother only acted once she herself was in peril.. when it was very, very, clear that she was devastated about this loss and would have acted immediately if she believed that the baby’s life was in danger. It is an evil comment meant to deride the mother as a caring mother and suggest she cared only about herself…. The mother was afraid her autonomy would not be respected in the hospital if she had gone there immediately upon going into labor, I did not say her autonomy was not respected.

          • Who?

            I know it’s painful but she behaved as though she cared more about her experience than the outcome. She acknowledges she was told what would likely happen and decided to try anyway.

            Maybe the cosmic lesson here is that fear is what should be feared-if she had conquered her fear of loss of autonomy (tricky for an invincible control freak, I grant you) she would have a baby in her arms now. But then we wouldn’t all be talking about her either.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            I wonder what her trial would look like in Albert Brooks’ Defending Your Life

          • guest

            Unfortunately, in this situation, her primary care WAS herself. As you pointed out, she cared more about her autonomy than on protecting the life of her child. She was warned that this was likely to happen. She CHOSE to believe otherwise by ignoring the expert’s advice. As pointed out many times below, you find one medical personnel out of many who’ll do what you want (if that is indeed what happened), you’re in an echo chamber.

            I do feel empathy for her loss. If I knew her that’s all I would tell her, absolutely, but this isn’t a loss support group. This site is designed to help prevent disasters of this nature. I hope that a mom contemplating this type of behavior would read the comments here and think about where her priorities lie.

          • birthbuddy

            She was told her baby would die and she went ahead anyway and her baby died, That is evil.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            “It implies that the mother only acted once she herself was in peril..”

            Ummm… that’s EXACTLY what happened.

          • BeatlesFan

            She knew the baby’s life would be in danger from the get-go, she was told by multiple professionals. You’re the one who keeps repeating that she didn’t go to the hospital initially because she thought she would be bullied into a c-section; clearly, she cared more about avoiding a c-section than she did about her son being born safely. That she cared more about herself and her preferences than her child could not be more glaringly obvious.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            It may be evil, but I don’t see any way in which it is untrue. She didn’t act to save her son. She may not have done that deliberately and I’m sure she’s devastated by the loss of her son, but the fact remains that she chose to risk her son’s life for her experience. And lost the bet.

          • Stacy21629

            “would have acted immediately if she believed that the baby’s life was in danger”
            Except she didn’t. Every day past 36-37 weeks her baby’s life was in danger and she was told that. She just didn’t “believe” it. But of course, that’s due to her “autonomy” not being “respected”.

            I’m sorry, but if your “autonomy” makes you stupid, I don’t have to respect that.

          • Jessica S.

            There is no way this woman could NOT have known, pre-freaking-conception, that her baby’s life would be in danger if she rejected the same type of care that brought her other high-risk pregnancies to fruition. This should not have been a surprise to ANYONE, least of all herself, an RN.

      • Siri

        How can it be evil when it is borne out by the mother’s own words? I think you have a different interpretation of the word evil than I do.

      • lilin

        I hope the woman herself never reads it, but I hope a lot of people in her previous state of pregnancy do. I hope they realize the morality of a person who is happy to let a child die for lack of medical care, but goes running to the hospital when they themselves are in danger.

      • Stacy21629

        No. Evil would be posting it on the mother’s own blog.

      • Jessica S.

        Your interpretation of evil is interesting.

    • Mac Sherbert

      After reading her comments again. I think she thought the only way she could love and bond with this baby was if she had another VB.

      “Was amazing and despite 24days in NICU she is amazing!” – These are statements about her first birth. Her 2nd birth she describes as traumatic and states she had bonding issues. Neither the 2nd or 3rd babies are described in glowing terms (maybe in other places on her blog, but not here). She remarks the 3rd birth was healing, but then complains about it. I think this 4th birth was all about getting the high she had after the first birth.

      Never mind I just read her blog.

      • Mac Sherbert

        By never mind I mean…She states over and over how invincible she is…She just thought she knew it all. She just thought she could win.

        I was trying to work up sympathy for her. The pain of a dead baby must be unbearable, but she just seems completely disconnected from reality.

        • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

          I need some levity.
          http://i.imgur.com/8FeMI6g.gif

          • Stacy21629

            That is a PERFECT. Thank you.

            ETA: I mean, really, lady – you’ve failed to birth a live term baby 6 out of the last 7 times. How “invincible” are you?

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            Thanks. I actually wanted to find a gif from Goldeneye – Alan Cummings saying “I’M INVINCIBLE” the moment before he gets frozen by a wave of liquid nitrogen and then shattered. But Monty Python works too.

            We laughed during our first son’s death. We laughed at the funeral of my best friend. I laugh in the darkest moments. Because sometimes it’s the only way to survive.

          • Stacy21629

            “Because sometimes it’s the only way to survive.”
            So true. :-/ :)

    • guest

      Why does that bother you? You just said you agreed that her life is more important than the baby’s.

      • Stacy21629

        Probably because out of one side of her mouth, the mother says “I’m doing the best thing I can for my baby.” But then DOESN’T act in the best interests of her baby. The only time she DOES act decisively is when her OWN life was in danger.

      • fiftyfifty1

        I have no criticism of mom’s life being more important than child’s. It’s a choice that every woman should be able to make without criticism. But if you’ll notice, there are 3 priorities listed above, not just 2. You can continue to value your life over your child’s life without also valuing your birth experience over your child’s life.

  • OldTimeRN

    Mother to be “I want to deliver they way I want, against medical a dive. I want no intervention. No IV, no fetal monitoring, no sonograms . Let me do what my body was meant to do”
    Doctor/Nurse “You’re baby is in fetal distress, you need a stat section”
    Mother to be “Can I think about it? Maybe try to labor on all 4′s”
    Doc/Nurse “No your baby needs to come out now”
    Mother to be “SAVE MY BABY”
    Doc/Nurse “I’m sorry your baby died”
    Mother “You killed my baby”

    Again hate to judge, but stop making woo decisions then come running for the hospital personnel to come to the rescue and save an impossible situation, then blame us when we can’t do anything. In the hospital we don’t do many stat sections. You know why? We monitor. We pay attention. We communicate. We deliver BEFORE a situation becomes dire.

    And contrary to popular woo belief we do take patient’s wishes into account. But when the life of the mother and baby are in danger, then wishes are thrown out the door in favor of what’s best medically for mother and baby. Talk about us all we want, at least your baby and you are alive.

    • anne

      I’ve been imagining the OR scene in my head and how sorrowful it must have been for the medical staff. She wrote that three doctor’s were there, and then you think of the nurses and other medical professionals that interacted with her and had to deliver a dead baby.

      • OldTimeRN

        I’m a pretty emotional person. I’ve cried at work many times. Some happy cries, some sad cries. Not that I’d say the nurse’s sorrow supersedes the parents, but we aren’t above feeling the sorrow. Our jobs go way beyond the medical aspectl for most of us.

        • Ob in OZ

          me too

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Me too. I’ve gone as far as yelling and throwing things too. (Admittedly, that was when the problem was the insurance company refusing to pay for a procedure that could save the patient’s life. I think it was the threat to contact the papers that eventually got them to relent.)

    • Chu

      With VBAC attempt, they noticed some decels and let me around a bit and his hr would go back up. His HR dipped into the 40s and they didnt even ask, they called it and took any decision making away from me, broke my bed down and wheeled me out to the OR. Luckily he was perfectly fine and I was fine. Still cant tell me what happened, theory was cord was being smashed. It happened so fast I could have imagined it. I think I signed a consent form. lol.

  • OldTimeRN

    If she ruptured in the hospital, we would have known almost immediately because the heart rate would have dropped or lost. Mom would have been taken for a stat C/S where that baby could have been delivered in less then 2 minuted. Maybe even within one minute.
    I’m sorry to judge but it’s crazy like this that the OB world has to be so restrictive with other birthing Moms. Give them an inch and they want a mile. They potentially ruin it for the rest of us.

    • Hush

      She didn’t have a placenta previa.

      • Anj Fabian

        Placenta previa + preterm labor + hemorrhaging was birth #3.

        Preterm labor + breech was birth #2.

        Preterm labor + vaginal birth was birth #1.

        Birth #4 was HBAC, spontaneous labor and the odds are very much in favor of another preterm labor.

        Also her uterus was a lemon that tried to eject her children before they were mature and on the fourth try, split open and ejected that baby into her own abdomen.

        Treacherous organ!

        • Jessica S.

          Seriously. At some point, it’s rational to recognize “hmmm, maybe *my* body isn’t compatible with bearing children. I guess I have two choices: don’t have (any further) children or accept the modern medical advances that can help me have a least a few more children than without it.” But no, in this case, ignorance is bliss.

        • Hush

          It does sound a bit treacherous. I don’t see why she thought a home birth was a good idea. I still think, though, that she had her own reasons.. she had support of a CNM.. she had her reasons for distrusting the obstetricians, and she had thought it out but obviously not considered every fact. I don’t honestly feel so bitter or upset with her the way you lot do, I just feel pity.

      • OldTimeRN

        Don’t recall saying she did. She had something far worse. She baby ripped through her uterus and wasn’t getting the oxygen his little brain needed to survive.

        • Hush

          I don’t know how that response got put where it did. I replied to someone else who had asked if she had a previa. I said she did not.

    • Trixie

      Exactly. I didn’t used to understand why some doctors didn’t want to do VBACs (I was a good candidate and had a hospital VBAC), but the more I realize these kinds of lunatics are out there, the more I see why they don’t want to. Seriously, stop ruining it for the rest of us who WANT EFM and doctors there should the need arise for an emergency c-section.

    • CanDoc

      I don’t know her obstetrical history, but a CS for a premature breech would have an increased chance of an inverted T incision (similar to a classical incision) in the uterus, resulting in a dramatically increased risk of uterine rupture. This may be part of why she was advised so emphatically against a VBAC. My blood boils.

  • Trixie

    Re: Hush’s speculation that a VBAC ban forced her to HBAC: Dr. Amy states that the hospitals near her routinely do VBACs right there in the piece. Since she probably has this woman’s full name, surely she can look up the hospitals in her area and whether they offer VBAC. So I think we can not blame a VBAC ban.

    • Hush

      I speculated it was a VBA2C ban out of policy, not a VBAC ban.

      • AllieFoyle

        Even if it was “policy”, so what? Why do you think a hospital might be motivated to have a policy like that? Do you think it might have something to do with the unreasonably high risk involved in VBA2C births?

      • The Mole

        You’re wrong. She had a hospital within 50 minutes of her that’s had successful VBAC2C, even a twin birth that was a VBAC2C.

        • lilin

          But! But! Now who can she blame for this woman’s medical decision?

          There’s gotta be a way to blame the evil “system.”

          • The Mole

            Damn the “evil system” that’s in place to protect these mothers and babies.
            Griffin’s safety was first and foremost when his mother went looking for a vbac2c with her history. The doctors she saw also had her safety and well being in mind.
            I don’t see how Hush can not see this.
            Griffin would be in his mothers arms right now had she listened to these OB’s she went against.

          • Hush

            Why does it have such a poor reputation, said system, of respecting women and their wishes.. in that woman and many a woman’s mind.. if they have done nothing to gain such a poor reputation? I don’t see how you cannot see that.

          • C T

            You want us to hold an entire field responsible for some jerks. And use those jerks to justify discounting a slew of studies and statistics, too. Not going to happen. There is literally no way to get rid of all the jerk doctors. But at least they do get punished for hurting people. Isn’t it a good thing that they belong to a “system” that disciplines them for ethical violations and malpractice?
            You know, there are jerk homebirth midwives, too. Read a few homebirth loss stories if you don’t know any horrible stories about what some midwives have done to their patients.

          • Hush

            I do. Hold the field responsible. They don’t always discipline people they sometimes just move….

          • sofrustrated

            So why don’t you blame the death of this baby the NCB crowd and their assertion that this type of birth is safe? Only doctors get blame for not being accepting enough?

          • Hush

            I actually do think that her “community” had a hand in it too.

          • sofrustrated

            In what way? Please, outline it for us with the same level of outrage you have leveled against doctors and hospitals.

          • Hush

            Well, they already have most of you attacking her and them. I figured the other side needed a voice. The HB people probably told her it was safe, fine, great.. never mind all your risks.. look at all these ladies here who did the same or more.. never mind your history.. i wouldn’t be surprised if people told her don’t bother researching their side, don’t listen to them they just want to scare you. I wouldn’t be surprised if her doula was a CPM that wasn’t monitoring things at all in a way that was appropriate. It sounds like they told her and her CNM told her to stay at home as long as possible.. That was a really common thing among HB people in a group I used to belong to.. even to high risk moms they’d tell them stay home as long as you can.. Stay out of the hospital.. you don’t want them messing with things. No matter the risk factors, too. Things like high blood pressure, GD, twins, multiple cesarean history, etc.. All the same thing.. They were wrong, trust your body! I wouldn’t be surprised if someone from a cesarean support group or a natural birth group was talking to her, reassuring her, telling her stuff like “trust your body” etc. right up until the transfer… when they would suddenly get disgusted because they didn’t get their natural birth and baby fix..

          • Hush

            Didn’t I post that I do?

          • C T

            The irony of you saying that after what some homebirth midwives do after a bad outcome (change aliases, practice without licenses, etc.) is rich. As a matter of fact, so is your whole “blame the field” approach given how many homebirth disasters this site has made me aware of. Taking that approach, I would be more than justified in taking a very hard line against CPMs and homebirth CNMs. (Actually, given the stats showing a 4-fold increase in baby deaths from homebirths, I think I would already be justified.)

          • Hush

            They are partially responsible for disenfranchising…. I did not suggest that home birth midwives have a better system of accountability.. What a weird leap.

          • lilin

            Keep moving the goal posts, honey.

            They were going to give her a c-section against her wishes!

            They weren’t? Wait, okay, maybe they were just going to be really unsupportive because it’s a state-wide policy!

            It isn’t? Wait, okay, maybe it’s just a bad system. There, that’s vague enough that no one could ever argue with me. It’s a bad system! Somehow! Which I will say without any proof, or any evidence at all!

            Tell you what. Let’s weigh all the unethical decisions made by doctors, and all the unethical decisions made by mothers. Wonder how those numbers will stack up.

          • Hush

            I never moved the goal posts. I simply responded to your lots changing argument against mine. I still fully believe they may have been coercive, there may have been a VBA2C ban, she seemed afraid her husband would consent for her, etc. I didn’t change my beliefs at all I simply acknowledged that most of those thoughts were speculation.

          • sofrustrated

            “they may have been coercive, there may have been a VBA2C ban, she seemed afraid her husband would consent for her,”
            But you see NONE of that matters AT ALL. Because it was still an unbelievable risk for her to take. And she lost. And she should know better – whatever her out of hospital (perhaps for a reason…) CNM told her. MANY hospital providers warned her against this. But she did it anyway. I’m sure she’s not the first VBA2C to chance it against “hospital policy” but her VBA2C was not most VBA2Cs and SHE KNEW THAT. She did it anyway.

          • Hush

            None of it mattered at all? What if there wasn’t such a nasty shadow and she didn’t have a reason to be so distrustful and I don’t know… believed them that they were taking her into particular consideration?

          • sofrustrated

            OF COURSE THEY WERE TAKING HER INTO PARTICULAR CONSIDERATION!!!

            Good grief, that’s why she was advised against doing this.

            Because with HER PARTICULAR obstetric history, attempting a vaginal birth was extremely likely to end in a dead baby.

            How much more personalized care do you want?

            I’m sure if she’d asked them to play Enya during her RCS they would have complied.

          • Hush

            Of course, but did she think so?? Obviously not.

          • sofrustrated

            “But did she think so”

            So that’s the doctors’ and hospital’s fault? That she was given what turned out to be 100% accurate information regarding the risks she was taking, and rejected it.

            There are people today that believe in geocentricity. We should give them a pass if they want to change our science books, right because “they don’t think so” despite the evidence?

          • Hush

            Not all their fault.. no… but you guys paint it all like the hospitals and way doctors behave aren’t big business and aren’t partly to blame for women disenfranchising when .. oh.. they are.

          • OBPI Mama

            You know what I find interesting… the majority of my homebirthing friends have never met with an OBGYN, never been in a hospital for a birth… books they read created a fear of the unknown (and many of the books were wrote back in the 60′s and 70′s… a very different time in hospitals than today). After my traumatic homebirth, I chose to birth in a hospital for my subsequent children (after having an unhealthy baby, I knew I had a greater chance of a healthy baby in a hospital). I was SO scared and programmed by NCB to be scared, to be mistrusting, to think it’s some big business that will do things against my will, etc. What I found was the complete opposite… HONEST, compassionate, kind people working together and with me. Wow. I wanted to shout from the mountaintops, “We’ve been lied to! It’s not all bad!” What also helped me (sadly) to come to that conclusion was our entry into the world of children’s hospitals after my first son was born. We go to two big children’s hospitals and the care of so many doctors and medical professionals… wow. They are passionate, they care, they treat on an individual level.

            I know this woman is different. She had been in hospitals, but in my area, the majority of women who have homebirths have never stepped foot in an LandD floor.

          • Stacy21629

            Do you know what else is “big business”? Good medicine. Yes, that’s right. Good medicine producing good outcomes IS NOT FREE. You want live babies and healthy mothers? It COSTS MONEY.

          • Amazed

            You can’t help stupid. She was stupid, dumb, irresponsible, cared about her amazing uterus more than she did about her baby and the baby died.

            I am waiting breathlessly for St Hush, defender of poor scared mothers who are an autonomous agency whose rights should not be infringed on to come scold me how heartless I am.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        It doesn’t matter. Even if the hospitals would do VBA2Cs, she was a terrible candidate for one, and they were in their right mind to refuse HER. Not the concept, but HER.

        Then again, as Allie says, what’s wrong with a VBA2C policy, if the hospital believes that they are too much risk for THEM. (Don’t bother quoting the ACOG, because the hospital knows full well what the ACOG says; however, that does not mean they are adequately equipped to to it)

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Absolutely. You don’t need a VBAC ban to explain why no one would do that for her. Clearly, it was based on her history and her condition.

    • CanDoc

      I speculated elsewhere that VBAC may have been contraindicated in her given i) 2 cesareans and ii) her prior CS for a premature breech would have a high chance of a “T” incision in uterus (similar to classical, done because the head is bigger than body and can be tricky to deliver or get stuck with a usual lower segment incision). Hence, hospitals that would normally offer VBAC may not have been willing to offer it to her.

      • Trixie

        HBA2C after inverted T is a special kind of stunt birth. I imagine the doula would have been pretty excited about that.

  • Jessica S.

    I can’t get past this statement: “… my hubby and I even had social workers sent in for us because my RN (who was 8months pregnant) couldn’t understand that a healthy baby was NOT my only goal outcome.”

    I have nothing further. What is there to say?

    • madwife

      Im confused? Was she refusing a luscs. With a known placenta previa?????
      Was she really wanting a normal birth despite this life threatening complication?

      • Jessica S.

        It’s mind boggling.

    • AmyP

      I take it the RN understood that all too well.

  • aj_18

    She should be charged with her baby’s death. What an idiot.

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Patients like Hush drive me crazy. They refuse to take our advice and want to direct their care, but the minute that things go south they point fingers.

    It reminds me of a patient I had who was an alcoholic. I recommended he go to AA- no, it wasn’t for him. I recommended that he go to an inpatient treatment center- no, it would take too much time. I recommended that he go to inpatient detox for a few days and then an IOP program- no, not interested.

    He wanted me to prescribe klonopin so he could do a “home detox program” that he read about on the web.

    I refused.

    He then blamed me when a month later he got a DUI and lost his job.

    • Hush

      I’m not sure why I drive you crazy.. Maybe because I do not view doctors as always having the purest of intentions and you are a doctor so you feel offended by that?? I actually had a very medicalized birth of my first and felt it was all necessary. He was in a weird position and was descending very slowly and we needed some help. Also, I did everything my CNM recommended during my second pregnancy.. GBS testing.. blood glucose testing.. blood tests for anemia and other issues.. an ultrasound.. etc.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        You drive her crazy because people like you reject her advice for no good reason and then blame her when bad things happen because you rejected her advice.

        No doctor expects that people will believe hir just because ze is the doctor, not anymore. But they do expect that if they say something informed by their best medical opinion, their patient will listen and not reject it because they don’t want to!

        • Hush

          Okay, what part of what I just said was not clear? I rejected whose advice?

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            That’s a fair point, Hush. You’re not saying that you’d make such batshit crazy choices. You’re merely placing the blame for those who do where it belongs– health care providers!

          • Renee Martin

            SHE CHOSE. This was NOT her HCP’s fault at all.

          • Hush

            So the CNM was a pretend health care provider..?

          • areawomanpdx

            The CNM had an obligation to tell her what she wanted to do was too dangerous for her to participate in as a medical care professional and refer her to a mental health provider. She should not have taken this woman on as a patient and given her dangerous advice. IMO, that is malpractice. No doubt the woman would have continued to provider-shop and found a CPM to take her on or attempted an unassisted birth. That wouldn’t have changed the outcome, but at least she doesn’t have a dead baby on her conscience and probably her license. OR, the woman might have said, “Huh, four different providers have told me that what I want is too dangerous. Maybe they’re right.”

          • Stacy21629

            In this scenario? Yes. Her willingness to take on this case proves she has no business caring for pregnant women AT ALL and needs to take up a different line of work.

            She didn’t make a simple mistake like miscalculating a drug dose, accidentally nicking the baby during a C-section – she deliberately 100% ignored all her training and the recommendations of multiple OBs and MFMs. She is the epitome of a pretend health care provider.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            I know. I was being sarcastic.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Examples, and I have edited it to make it more clear.

            Basically, if you behaved like this mother you are defending so adamantly, you would go to PCD, she would give you advice and tell you how to prevent bad things, you would reject that advice for FSM only knows what reasons, bad things would happen, and you would blame PCD for … something. You don’t understand why that make make her a little upset?

            You rejected medical advice. You chose to risk letting bad things happen that you were warned about. Therefore you bear the blame for the bad outcome. PCD (our stand-in for the medical establishment as a whole) bears zero blame or responsibility for a bad outcome she tried to prevent in every way she could.

          • AllieFoyle

            Your entire argument is not clear. You’re blaming and smearing an entire class of hard-working, caring professionals because some woman believed that they would force her to do something for her own good to safe her life and her son’s. Well, they didn’t and he died. But it’s still their fault. Somehow.

          • Hush

            I am blaming doctors in general for taking on such a NASTY REPUTATION and for a reason! They –have– been known to abdicate responsibility and claim “policy”, when really they were being lazy assholes or perverts. It’s not that hard. Not everyone who comes into contact with med pros has an even okay experience with it. It can color how you view a profession.. maybe not rightly.. but it can. If you have a med pro lie to you a few times or take a lazy route and be totally wrong (both my experiences) then you start to wonder when are the lies and when is the truth?? Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields.. and hostility.. and retaliatory over-medicalization. It’s not like they are making it all up. I am not making up either what happened with my blood pressure and the doctor who was sexually harassing me nor am I making up the home birth CNM that left my home with me in no state to have been left there without a medical professional present. It’s really not complicated. I don’t, for one second, believe the kakameme version of the story that the golden hearted doctors wanted nothing but to protect the poor baby and mother. Nope. Don’t believe it. You’d have to prove it.

          • Karen in SC

            No one is saying you are making up your experience.

            I am saying that giving informed consent and stating the risks is NOT crying wolf. A risk exists – it is NOT zero. If the baby is delivered healthy that is a good outcome!! It does NOT mean the doctor lied. FFS

            You think that Griffin’s mother’s doctors LIED? about a clearly high risk birth??? What medical school did you attend?

          • Hush

            They DO cry wolf, though, was my point. I didn’t say those particular doctors did.

          • C T

            Some cops are corrupt, too. So I’m just going to ignore the flashing lights behind me because I have reason to distrust cops. That’s going to end well.

          • Hush

            Your argument is just weird.

          • C T

            I will draw the lines for you.
            You say “some doctors lie and threaten, destroying trust in doctors as a whole.” My analogy is “some cops are corrupt, destroying trust in police as a whole.”
            Rational thinking people accept that there are bad eggs in any profession or career, but that doesn’t diminish the knowledge, tools, or authority (be it science-backed or state-granted) of the good ones.

          • Hush

            Some people do deeply distrust the police.. as a whole… Are doctors going to start pepper spraying unruly patients who don’t consent?

          • birthbuddy

            And this argument isn’t weird?

          • Young CC Prof

            I’m not saying that doctors never cry wolf. However, here’s another scenario that’s more common.

            Doctor says, “I strongly recommend this treatment, if you don’t take it, there is a 50% chance you will die of this condition you have.”

            Most patients say yes, a smaller number say no because they think they know better. Vast majority of those who do the treatment recover and go on with their lives, a few tragically die despite treatment.

            Of those who don’t treat, 50% die and 50% recover. Those who recover say, “Ha! That doctor was just crying wolf! I didn’t need treatment at all!” Then they brag about their natural recovery on the Internet.

            The other 50%, well, there’s no wifi six feet under, and their voices go unheard.

          • Hush

            I understand that sometimes people do not weigh things risk wise appropriately. Obviously this was one of those scenarios. However, I was trying to point to why it was weighed inappropriately and don’t think doctors are completely innocent in that light.

          • sofrustrated

            This woman had more warning than most. If an unsuspecting primip loses her baby to an idiotic CPM because she happened to watch BoBB after she got pregnant, I have some sympathy for her.

            Not this woman. This “invincible control freak” was bound and determined to ignore ALL advice given to her – innocent or guilty doctor be damned.

            I feel sorry for her baby and her daughters.

            Doctors share exactly ZERO blame in this baby’s death.

          • Hush

            That is your opinion. I disagree.

          • Durango

            Your tack is that because there have always been bad doctors in the world and women have historically been disenfranchised this woman acted understandably?

            If that is truly what you believe, how do you think an individual doctor should behave? No matter how good they are, no matter how empathetic they are, no matter how well-intentioned they are, you blame them for patients’ incredibly risky decisions. They can never overcome that, apparently, without supporting patients to do whatever tomfoolery they want to do.

            Fortunately, outside your circle of friends, the people with your point of view are few.

          • guest

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields…and hostility…and retaliatory over-medicalization.”

            Cite please. Otherwise, I’ll take that statement with a grain of salt. I’d believe isolated cases, but there are isolated cases of lots of things. Overwhelmingly, though? I doubt it.

          • Maria

            I would take that statement with a whole bucket of salt.

          • Hush

            In my circle of women, overwhelmingly, this is totally true. I don’t know about women at large. Could be “isolated” but … I believe there was a study out not long ago that was reference to birth trauma / PTSD / trauma reaction and a good chunk of women not just a tiny swath of them reported feeling trauma reactions and it wasn’t even usually because of danger it was often because they were not kept informed and not kept in the loop with decision making… so they felt powerless.. not exactly gaining consent is it if women are excluded and powerless?

          • guest

            I think that consent procedures and patient participation could be improved. Sure. But this woman had months to wrap her head around hospital procedures. I mean, this is just a bad case for your examples. It sounds like she was informed consented up the wazoo.

            As to trauma, please do cite whatever you’re talking about. Because I definitely felt traumatized by my last birth, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the hospital staff. Birth is hard, painful, you can lose a lot of blood even in a “normal” birth, crashing hormones. I found the staff to be respectful and helpful, but the birth itself was incredibly traumatic.

          • Young CC Prof

            Your circle may be self-selected, or it may be perpetuating a particular type of narrative while women in another social circle may tell a different type of narrative about nearly identical experiences.

            Let me know if you can find that study, though, I’d be curious.

          • Siri

            I would guess that this says more about your circle than about women’s perceptions in general. I bet many of you go into any encounter with a doctor EXPECTING to feel very negative, and I also bet that you get a much more positive response from your friends when you criticise medical care than if you were to praise your doctor. Self-fulfilling prophesy. And what is ‘retaliatory over-medicalization’? Sounds like an item straight out of the Paranoiac’s Compendium.

          • Mariana Baca

            I’m sorry you had a medical provider sexually harrass you. That is terrible and hopefully disciplinary actions can be taken against that doctor.

            But you do see how you might be too biased to be making any determinations about the whole medical field by claiming they are all lazy assholes and perverts? A homebirth attendant left you, your friend died in a homebirth, yet you are blaming the hospitals and overmedicalization or catastrophes that happened outside of the hospital without doctors. It seems like you don’t trust anyone who is in any medical field at this point. That sounds like a scary place to be.

          • Hush

            He has moved to another state and avoided it. Well I am not judge and juror anyway, it’s just my opinion. I’ve held it for a while that they (the medical establishment) are rather into cronyism and full of things that are in the interest of money and not in the interest of humans. I actually don’t trust anyone in the medical field anymore.. home birth midwives.. doctors.. any of them. I don’t know what it disqualifies me for? I cannot have an opinion?

          • Mariana Baca

            You can have an opinion. I’m just saying you should be aware that your position of distrust for all practitioners is unusual and very biased. It is worth considering whether there might be a flaw in your logic given your strong emotions on this issue.

            But unless you think women should give birth unassisted, a woman has to ultimately trust someone in order to give birth with an attendant and receive medical care. Even if she decides to “do the research herself”, she is placing her trust on the people who wrote the research, which tend to be doctors, too. ACOG is a bunch of doctors, too.

          • Guesteleh

            Hush, I’m very sorry you were abused and that your friend died. Abuse by medical personnel does happen. I’ve seen it happen. A hospital in my city was deaccredited because of decades of abuse and patients needlessly dying. I knew medical students who rotated through the hospital and they described seeing babies screaming in cribs for hours being ignored by the nursing staff.

            But there are also some amazing practitioners out there making huge sacrifices to deliver great care. My son had to go to the emergency room last year and he was taken to a county hospital that mostly serves a Medicaid population. Everyone we encountered was amazingly kind and not just to us. My son shared a room with a girl from a poor black family and the hospital staff treated them with respect and compassion.

            I hope that you are able to eventually connect with some of the good providers and learn to trust and heal. I know it’s a difficult journey but there are good people out there and I hope you find them.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            “I don’t, for one second, believe the kakameme version of the story that the golden hearted doctors wanted nothing but to protect the poor baby and mother.”

            No. Clearly they wanted money. They saw this woman and said, “Hey, I bet we can trick her into all sorts of interventions and make a mint!” Or perhaps they were “perverts” (to quote one of your previous posts) who just get off on a nice incision.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Or just lazy. That’s why they all refused to save her life when she came in bleeding out.

            Oh, wait.

          • OBPI Mama

            Reading some of Hush’s comments, I feel for doctors and other medical professionals. Years upon years of schooling, insane hours as residents, paying thousands and thousands of dollars for malpractice insurance every year, keeping up with latest medical technology, keeping up with policies, and then actually caring for patients of all different personalities, quirks, religions (and trying to remember what groups are okay with what), and trying to individualize care. And then being accused of being perverts and the like. Ouch.

            Wonder what other broad strokes Hush paints… there are some abusive moms and dads out there. Therefore, every mother and father in this country must be abusive. Makes sense, right?

          • OBPI Mama

            I am so sorry for your experiences! I hope you filed reports.

            Do you trust moms and dads? You paint with such broad brushes that it makes me wonder… I grew up with foster siblings. who had horrible, abusive parents. So there are abusive, mean parents in this world. By your rationing, all moms and dads are abusive and mean and horrible. We shouldn’t trust any of them.

            Same with teachers and pastors. There are some rotten ones. Are they all rotten and out for money, or whatever?

            It seems like a hard life to be distrusting with everyone.

          • ngozi

            Exactly!!

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital with regards to proper consent for a variety of procedures in a variety of fields.. ”

            Citation please. Because at least in OB care in the U.S. women *overwhelmingly* report that they are pleased with the care they received.

          • Stacy21629

            “Women, overwhelmingly, are reporting very poor experiences in the hospital”
            Actually, no. In nationwide surveys something like 75% of women report that they are satisfied with their birth experience. I can’t find the actual study right now but it’s far more reputable than “my friends say”.

          • Ihateslugs

            Wow! You are really something…I am so offended by you that for once in my life, I am speechless. I am a pediatrician and my husband is a surgeon, and many of our friends are physicians as well. In thinking of us, as well as our many colleagues, I cannot think of one “lazy asshole” or “pervert.” Rather, we are individuals who have devoted a SIGNIFICANT portion of our lives to caring for other people. You have no idea… Someday, you are really going to need one of us, and maybe then you’ll realize just how wrong you are.

          • ngozi

            There are some bad physicans and bad things happen at hospitals. But just like everything else, you find bad people in all professions. I have had bad experiences with my local hospital and doctors there, but that doesn’t mean that every hospital and every doctor everywhere is like that. I don’t understand people who think like that.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          I’m just going to follow you around all day nodding, Feminerd.

        • Hush

          “People like you” people like what precisely? What sort of person am I?

          • sofrustrated

            Someone that values a mother’s complete and total autonomy over a baby’s life and blames doctors for every stupid decision patients make.

            among other things…

          • Hush

            The first bit of sentence well yes. Damn right I value female autonomy over babies. Female autonomy after all is what is in the best interest of babies and don’t you forget that for a second. Women are not brood mares who should be put to sleep if the baby is worth more than her in blood but the pregnancy will kill her. Also, I do not blame doctors for the entire thing. I said that the medical profession has a hand or a toe in these type of outcomes because they had a hand themselves in creating a situation where women are deeply distrustful even outside of the deeply religious bunches.

          • sofrustrated

            Well we may not change your mind, but believing that it’s 100% always no questions asked right for a woman to make a STUPID decision that ends in the death of her child simply because it’s her autonomous right to do so…and then blaming the doctors…well that’s what makes you “people like you”.

            CPMs and homebirth midwives go out of their way in “creating a situation where women are deeply distrustful” – that’s all that BoBB was. Purposefully creating distrust.

            Do you decry Ricki Lake and BoBB?

          • Hush

            I have no idea what you are even referring to, so I will look it up.

          • sofrustrated

            The Business of Being Born.

            2 hours of a washed up talk show host inciting terror in the minds of pregnant women.

          • OBPI Mama

            CPM’s and homebirth midwives and women who are so passionate about homebirthing that anything that shows an increased risk of adverse outcomes really do an amazing job of creating distrust of anyone medical! The books, the movies, the groups that all think the same thing, the stories from the 1950′s-70′s, the manipulations aspects Dr. Amy talked about in that one post… They are really good at creating distrust.

    • OldTimeRN

      You know damn well, if her baby would have died while in a hospital birth she would have been all over blame for the hospital like white on rice. But oddly enough, she has no blame for herself or her CM.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Yup.

      • Mishimoo

        I’m waiting for this to happen with a friend’s family. Her father-in-law had two heart attacks recently, developed pneumonia, and yelled at the doctors + nurses for giving him drugs instead of continuing his alternative medicine treatments. His heart is so bad and he is so weak that they can’t operate, and he’s on comfort measures only. A transplant is not worth the risk. He rallied a bit recently, so they’re claiming that the altmeds + prayer are working and “doctors are stupid! They’re confused that natural stuff is working, lol!”

        Unfortunately, when he dies, they will most probably blame the medical professionals even though he has done his best to reject science.

    • fiftyfifty1

      I had one just like that the other day: insulin dependent diabetic, one previous heart attack, history of seizures during withdrawl. He had gone to the local detox center requesting a withdrawl but they had refused to take him because he was too medically complicated and told him to go to the hospital. But he didn’t WANNA go to the hospital so he showed up in my office and demanded I prescribe him Klonopin so he could do it himself at home! Sure buddy, sure.

      • Renee Martin

        He just wanted the pills, but used the detox excuse assuming that it would look better.

    • Anj Fabian

      Wait.
      They seriously expect you to hand out a benzo to someone who has a history of substance abuse?

      I don’t think so.

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Sure. Isn’t the first time someone has tried to get me to participate in that kind of insanity. Nope.

        • Aussiedoc

          My favourite was the patient who blamed me for his car accident because he took meth.

          Because I wouldn’t prescribe him dexamlhetamine for his meth addiction???

          Then there was the guy who told me if I didn’t give him Valium he’d hit his wife. I can’t even….

          • Dr Kitty

            Oh I had “if you don’t prescribe me (free, NHS) benzos and opiates that I owe my dealer I’ll get kneecapped!”

            Yep, of COURSE I’ll just give you free drugs so they can be sold on the black market…

            No, no I didn’t.

            I don’t think he found my suggestion to involve the police helpful, but that is all he got.

      • Dr Kitty

        I do home detoxes with 5 or 6 days of Librium all the time.
        I don’t want dependent drinkers seizing and dying when they decide to quit.
        There are some caveats (someone else at home to monitor the patient and dispense the meds, daily collection of meds from a pharmacy, agreeing to referral to drug and alcohol counselling, no hx of DTs etc).
        MOST alcoholics here detox at home.
        If there were lots of inpatient facilities, I’d offer them.
        Currently the local choices are a NHS general medical ward or a facility run by nuns, with a big religious emphasis…not many takers.

        http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/13337/53105/53105.pdf
        http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/alcohol-use-disorders

        • guest

          Sounds like fiftyfifty could take some tips from you about respect and autonomy.

  • Mac Sherbert

    Poor Sweet Baby. I’m so sorry he died. I wish his mother’s bad choices wouldn’t have ended in him loosing his life. And yes. It’s clear her choice to avoid that dreaded C-section cost him his life. She gambled and she lost.
    Did he have a name? His sisters will never know their brother. What about the dad?
    Every time I read one of these stories I wonder when will this insanity end!

  • lilin

    There’s one person who makes a great point down thread – what choices should doctors be forced to “support”? And I think that that sums up the response to most arguments.

    If someone wants to bleed their child , and doctors refuse, and the person bleeds their kid at home and kills the kid, are the doctors to blame because the kid might have been saved in a hospital?

    If someone wants to inject their kid with “natural medicine,” and the doctors refuse, and the kid dies, are the doctors to blame because they could have purified the herbs and supervised the injection?

    Of course not. People who reject multiple doctors advice reject reality. When they say the entire medical system should change to implement an amateur’s idea of appropriate medical care, they’re taking that rejection one step further.

    • Guesteleh

      This is what’s baffling me about Hush’s arguments. She seems to be saying we should allow patients to do whatever they want while in the hospital even if it’s incredibly dangerous and against medical advice, and that magically just because the person is in proximity to doctors and equipment the dangerous treatment will work out. Or something. Actually, I’m not at all clear exactly what she’s going on about. And I’m someone who very strongly supports the rights of women to make their own healthcare decisions.

      • Anj Fabian

        Her basic argument is that hospitals, not individuals, should bear the bulk of the risk.

        I want to park my ass in a hospital bed while I do something that is completely against medical advice – Hush thinks I should be able to do it, the hospital should support me and be ready to intervene if anything goes wrong…

        …but only if I say they can intervene. Otherwise they have to sit and watch me risk my health and my life because I call the shots.

        I didn’t realize I was so special that everyone should obey my every whim.

        • Trixie

          Don’t forget, have your health insurance pay for it, and retain the right to sue the doctors when you don’t follow their advice.

        • Guesteleh

          I also think Hush thinks doctors should only intervene when in an emergency, but a lot of obstetrics is focused on preventing the emergency in the first place. If you have to perform a four alarm race to the OR for a stat CS, then something’s gone terribly wrong. That’s what you’re trying to avoid.

          Having said all that, I’ve heard terrible stories about how pregnant women of color and teens get treated in hospitals, so there is work to be done on improving respectful treatment for women in labor. This story isn’t an example of that.

          • Hush

            That’s not true. That’s not what I think at all.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Then tell us exactly what you do mean. Tell us exactly how YOU would manage the case. Exactly how hard will you try to convince her prenatally that she is at extremely high risk of rupture due to her *personal* history of no term vaginal births and 2 c-sections done on a pre-term uterus? How many times should you tell her? When does telling her cross the line into not respecting her autonomy? When should she come in? Should you remind her one more time when she comes in in labor of her risk or is that badgering? Should you insist on anything (e.g. IV heplock or fetal monitoring) or would insisting on those be a blow to her autonomy? When the uterus ruptures (because remember in this case it does rupture) what incision do you plan and where? Cause this is a uterus with scar tissue you know. You better not cut in the wrong spot and yet you better cut NOW! The baby is up by her spleen, how do you plan to get it out of the incision in the the fewer than 4 minutes you have to save baby while at the same time without damaging mom’s vital organs? Keep in mind you will need time to start general anesthesia since she wanted a “natural birth” and so doesn’t have an epidural in place. Are you enjoying all this responsibility yet? It’s a real power trip right?!

          • yugaya

            Thank you fo putting things in perspective. I think I’m gonna be sending thank you notes and flowers and recent pictures of my kids to my OBs. That chain of thought is something I am glad I never have to pursue and act upon in my everyday work.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “I’ve heard terrible stories about how pregnant women of color and teens get treated in hospitals, so there is work to be done on improving respectful treatment for women in labor.”

            Considering there is some truth to this, it’s rather interesting that there are almost no teens and no women of color choosing homebirth.

        • Hush

          Actually, this only applies to laboring or actively dying patients.. They are required legally to stabilize you or take care of you until you are stable after the birth. They are not allowed to perform surgery against your consent.

          • Guesteleh

            Take care of you HOW? And what do you mean by “stabilize?” Be specific, because I can’t figure out what you’re talking about.

          • Hush

            You’ve never heard of EMTALA laws?

          • Guesteleh

            Yes, I’ve heard of EMTALA. But you aren’t answering my question: what specifically are you expecting the doctors to do? And don’t quote EMTALA at me. I want to know what YOU think the hospital should be doing.

          • Hush

            Offering interventions but being respectful when they are declined. And by respectful I mean they don’t come in every 5 minutes and ask for consent. I mean they come in if something changes to make it riskier or an agreed to time span has elapsed. Perform interventions if they warranted and she consents unless she is totally incapable of consenting/not. I mean they have to treat her it’s the law.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            That seems to be precisely what happened, no?

            “We were given the statistics respectfully and it was our choice to make.”

            No one coerced her into anything. No one “bullied” her. And her baby died.

            It’s a win-win, right?

          • Hush

            I don’t know what all was said, do you? It seemed like she was afraid they wouldn’t be respectful or that her husband would end up submitting to the cesarean without her consent. She seemed to believe she was in danger of having her rights run ripshod over if she went right to the hospital. I don’t know why she thought that or if she was justified in thinking so or not but it’s what she thought.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            How SPECIFICALLY should they have handled this?

            Like this?

            “Ummm… Mrs. Crazypants? Gee, umm, we just wanted to talk to you for a minute. Is this a good time? Well– and I’m really, really sorry to mention this at all–but all the doctors here are just kind of concerned that this miiiiight not be the greatest idea. Of course it’s your choice and we’ll support you no matter what, but golly, it sure would be nice if you’d have a C-section. Oh, you don’t want to? Well that’s also just great. We really respect that choice. Tell you what… we’ll check back in with you in, oh, say, five or six hours. Would that work for you? Ok, just let us know if there’s an actual emergency. We’ll be here ready to snap to! Oh, please… don’t thank us… THANK YOU!”

          • lilin

            ” I don’t know why she thought that or if she was justified in thinking so or not but it’s what she thought.”

            How about not blaming doctors or “the system” for the outcome then? How about blaming the person who made the wrong choice?

          • Anj Fabian

            Only there was no “birth”. A ruptured uterus isn’t birth, it’s a pathology.

    • Hush

      Bleeding a child is a completely non-evidence based choice. Trying to allow a baby to come out the vagina when at that current moment there is no emergency indication for a cesarean is not a non-evidence based choice, it can be riskier in certain situations.. You are allowed to “reject multiple doctors advice”, and she actually had the support of a CNM.. so one could argue she had the support of an upper level educated medical professional in this decision making and she wasn’t behaving entirely negligent. Was the CNM negligent, though? Probably.

      • Guesteleh

        when at that current moment there is no emergency indication for a cesarean

        See my comment below. Doing the CS BEFORE the emergency indication is preventative medicine, that’s the whole point of a scheduled CS vs. an emergent CS.

        • Hush

          But refusing a CS just because you are a VBA2C and the doctor is recommending it out of policy is not necessarily pre-empting an emergency. In this case there was one but that doesn’t mean in every VBA2C there will be.

          • Guesteleh

            Following your logic, people don’t get in car accidents every time they drive drunk. That means it’s totally okay to drive drunk–after all, the odds are in your favor.

          • Hush

            No, following my logic .. people drive at all.

          • fiftyfifty1

            And so following your logic: because people drive at all, then it’s ok to drive drunk.

          • lilin

            “recommending it out of policy”

            No. Recommending because it prevents death.

            I love how you keep scrambling to characterize a specific plan of care designed to keep this woman and her baby alive as “policy” and policy as bad. First of all, “policy” isn’t automatically bad, and its stupid to characterize it as if it is. Swabbing a site of an injection to prevent infection is policy. Frequent handwashing is policy. It’s there to keep you alive. And doctors will refuse to treat you if you ask them to stop it, because no amount of “agency” on your part can force them to contribute to your death and the death of your baby.

            How dare those heartless doctors insist on taking on a case only if they can provide care that will keep a baby from dying! It’s almost as if they are caring human beings!

          • Hush

            If there was one.. An all-out VBA2C ban, according to ACOG, is against the best interests of women. .

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How did you come to the conclusion that this was the policy?

            Seriously, you think you are telling OBs how to practice?

            She had two previous very serious outcomes, with the babies both spending time in the NICU.

            It doesn’t matter whether it was hospital policy or not, she was a TERRIBLE candidate for a VBA2C. According to every legitimate provider who she talked to. The only person she could get to support her was a HB midwife.

          • lilin

            “If there was one..”

            What are you even talking about with this sentence fragment?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            What is an “all-out VBA2C ban”? If University Hospital allows it, but Local County does not, that would mean there is not an all-out ban and perfectly consistent with the ACOG recommendations.

            Then again, the ACOG absolutely does NOT endorse VBACs (just 1 cs) in hospitals that cannot ensure an anesthesiologist available within 10 minutes. So the ACOG supports ACOG, but only where they can be done safely.

            The same would presumably apply to VBA2C. The ACOG says an all-out ban is not appropriate. That doesn’t mean they should be done at hospitals not adequate equipped for them.

          • Jessica S.

            The ACOG also clearly states that a trial of labor for a good VBAC candidate is only recommended in a hospital equipped to deal with an emergency situation. They acknowledge that it puts hospitals and patients at odds with each other, in some cases, but that the only responsible way for them to recommended VBAC (for reasonably qualified women) is if it’s done in a place able to handle the risk. So any policy based on that is not going against ACOG, but actually following it. If it seems contradictory, then the ACOG should choose one way or the other. Seems to me of works ok, the exception being these fanatics that want to defy reality.

          • AllieFoyle

            What is wrong with you? Will you get your argument straight? Are doctors and hospitals at fault here for failing to provide evidence-based care or for trying to force evidence-based care on her? Because a pre labor c-section would have absolutely been high-quality, evidence-based care. It was without a doubt the best, safest thing to do; it would have been life-saving. Do you understand that? A VBA2C in that situation would not have been evidence-based care. You cannot fault an entire medical system and all of its practitioners because some woman erroneously believed they would force something on her that they wouldn’t and didn’t, even though it was in her own best interest. Her son’s best interest.

            I believe in sympathy and forgiveness, but I also believe in the truth. What this woman believed and, apparently still believes, is beyond the bounds of reality, rationality, and morality. She made a bad decision with horrible consequences and now she’s trying to justify and perpetuate the beliefs that led her to make that decision in the first place. No. Just no. She’s wrong. I have pity and sympathy for her loss but just no. The blame for this does not belong on doctors and hospitals and the medical system. It belongs with those who promulgate and perpetuate fear, distrust, and misinformation about life-saving treatment and the people who provide it.

          • Hush

            Oh, I agree that a cesarean would’ve been a fine thing to have decided to do.. prior to labor… but that’s not what this nurse mother wanted. She weighed the risks and weighed the opposition, found support in a med pro and found support in a community.. and never dreamed she’d be a statistic. She was also of the opinion that the doctors were jerks and were lying to her out of policy (whether they were or not, I am unsure) but what I have been trying to say all along is WHY does a woman have the perception that they would lie?? Because, I’ll tell you, because she’s probably been lied to before. And because she’s had a poor experience already, I wish people would stop minimizing that. And because she’s a nurse and has seen things that were probably disturbing to her, antisocial behavior on the part of physicians and other nurses etc. And because she believed she was being told that out of policy and not because they had evaluated her individually… Why would an educated RN think that way?? Because it’s true. The doctors -do- do that type of thing. Maybe in her case it was not that. They were telling the truth. They were weighing her risk individually. But, doctors have a way to go now to garner back the trust of many women. They have a way to go. How are people who are jaded in such a way supposed to see through the mud?

          • C T

            Some doctors do it (act like paternalistic jerks), and some don’t. But the statistics for ruptures in light of the risk factors she had, all of that was available to her via medical libraries and medical websites, same as any doctor. She even had the training to understand the relevant studies herself. The problem is that she “never dreamed” bad things could happen to her, indicating possible narcissism and delusions, and she found a supportive “community” that held it a virtue to not rain on her parade of unfounded hopes. Are you part of that community or one like it? Is that why you’re fighting this issue so hard? Because you don’t want to admit that what you say has led or could lead to a predictable demise of a baby? That certainly explains your admirable stamina today.

          • Young CC Prof

            You know, she mentioned that what happened to her son was a rare bad event with “lottery-winning” odds. Even leaving her obstetric history aside and assuming she’s a prime candidate for VBAC with a mere 0.5% chance of rupture, that sure ain’t lottery-winning odds. If the odds of winning a serious amount of money in the lottery were one in 200, I’d be buying fistfuls of tickets every day!

          • Durango

            You have made up quite a story about this woman’s mindset. The overwhelming majority of the MDs I work with (I am a nurse) are great people who are doing their darndest to maximize the health of each and every patient.

            And, of course, there are the patients who are sure that they are being lied to and information is being withheld from them, and there is literally no way to convince them that nothing is being held back. We bend over backwards to accommodate these patients (Press Ganey!), but it is never, ever, enough.

          • Karen in SC

            She must have barely passed her nursing boards if she couldn’t see that they were telling her the truth after her history. What a way to cut off your nose to spite your face (If your interpretation is true). As was explained, she did have the availability of a hospital that did VBA2Cs, so stop spouting the “policy” bullshit.

            An overwhelming number of women have great hospital birth experiences, btw.

          • areawomanpdx

            Because she’s been told by Ricki Lake and Ina May and all ofthe homebirth midwives on MDC and Facebook that doctors are liars. That doesn’t mean that they are. It means that people with a financial incentive to scare people away from doctors are doing so.

          • S

            “WHY does a woman have the perception that they would lie? Because, I’ll tell you, because she’s probably been lied to before.” Do you know this for a fact? Because it sounds to me like you are projecting your own experiences onto this woman’s story.

            I’m not saying it’s impossible she was lied to or mistreated before, but even if she was, it’s not reasonable or healthy to then assume that everyone is trying to fuck with you. It’s also not fair to the many good providers out there.

            And i don’t agree that that’s the most likely explanation anyway, because (as pointed out by Renee upthread) why then work with a CNM, OB, and MFM and then completely discard their advice? I think she was hoping she’d eventually get different answers. She never did. So she went on to do what she wanted anyway.

            “But, doctors have a way to go now to garner back the trust of many women.” How do you propose they do this? Arrogant assholes either don’t realize they’re arrogant assholes, or they don’t care, but either way i don’t see them changing their attitudes easily, so are you saying the good providers need to bend over backwards to make up for the sins of a few of their colleagues? Because as far as i can see, all this does is burn out the all the good docs.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Is there anything in her narrative that suggests she was lied to? Not that I’ve seen. No, it’s about how wonderful her vaginal birth was and how awful her c-section was.

            The only way to get to “they lied” is to assert that the c-section was unnecessary, and that is impossible.

          • Dr Kitty

            She had two preterm CS.
            So the CS incisions were made into a lower uterine segment that was not fully formed.These types of incisions are more likely to rupture subsequently.

            In her fourth pregnancy she managed to stay pregnant longer than she ever had done before, so this would have been her biggest baby yet.

            You have a woman whose only successful VB was at 31weeks. The average weight at 31 weeks is 1500g.
            The average weight at term is about 3500g.
            She subsequently had 2 pre term CS, the second complicated by a complete praevia.

            Her risk of successful VB is lower than for a woman with a term VB and two term CS, because her VB baby was much smaller than a term baby.

            Her risk of rupture was much higher than an average VBA2C because of the type of uterine scars she had due to to timing of the previous CS.

            This is not about VBA2C being safe in general, this is about VBA2C being

          • Dr Kitty

            …VBA2C being too risky to recommend for HER.
            Even in the UK, where RCOG recommends that even VBA4C can be safely attempted, I doubt any competent OB would have advised VBAC for her, based on the specific risk factors in her history.

            This was not about doctors choosing not to ignore a bad policy, it was about a patient choosing to ignore good advice based on good medical knowledge.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            That is what everyone has been telling you since this morning. If it was that the doctor doesn’t want to do a VBA2C just because it is a VBA2C then she should have found another doctor. There is never an excuse to HBA2C and no one else is to blame if you chose to do so.

          • Amazed

            Ah yeah, out of policy, out of policy.

            How the hell do you know it was out of policy? Judging by what the woman herself wrote, it was out of consideration to HER OWN obstetric history.

            All you’ve been moaning about is that if someone was refused a VBAC, a VBA2C, whatever, it MUST have been out of policy. It couldn’t have been out of estimation of THEIR OWN personal circumstances. And the fact that the outcome they predicted was too likely to occur did occur was just an amazing coincidence.

            What’s wrong with you?

        • Hush

          Also, I would think that signing up for an RCS is a totally logical thing to do in this situation. It’s just I don’t think it is illogical to not sign up for the RCS and want to have a VBA2C.. What I find irrational is after a history of such complications doing it at home.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You don’t think it’s illogical because you have no idea what you are talking about. This SPECIFIC woman had multiple serious risk factors that added up to a low chance of success and a high chance of rupture in her SPECIFIC case. She was counseled about her personal risk of a dead baby.

            What you’re saying is the equivalent of: “I don’t think it is illogical to leave my children unbuckled in the car because the odds are low I am going to crash.”

            Obstetrics is preventive medicine. If a woman wants to refuse prevention, that’s her right, but she’s entirely responsible when the bad outcome she was warned about comes to pass. Her attitude is like the smoker who wails that smoking was a logical choice and who could have known he’d get lung cancer as a result.

          • Hush

            I don’t agree. The CNM didn’t seem to think she was at that serious of risk and I thought you liked CNMs? 3 doctors from the same hospital/practice is not that impressive to me. I would have gotten multiple opinions from different practices. I also wouldn’t have labored at home at all as a VBA2C but I totally get why this mom did. The CNM told her to!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            The experts were the obstetricians. CNMs are not experts compared to obstetricians. The mother chose to ignore medical advice.; her child died as a result. It may seem to you like letting her child die was a reasonable price to pay for the chance of having a baby pass through her vagina. The rest of us think it was a hideously narcissistic choice.

          • Hush

            That is a mis-characterization of what I have said.. but thanks for being polite!

          • Stacy21629

            I’m sorry, but that is EXACTLY what you have said. You have defended her autonomy to choose a vaginal birth about all else – including the almost certain risk of her baby dying.

          • AllieFoyle

            What this CNM did or didn’t say is nothing but hearsay at best. We have absolutely no idea what she actually advised. If she did, in fact, advise a woman with this history to labor at home, then I have no problem assigning some blame to her.

          • Amy

            One CNM isn’t “CNMs.”

            I’m not Dr. Amy (just happen to share her first name), but come on, it’s perfectly possible to have a general respect for a particular class of professionals and still point out gross negligence when it occurs.

            The mother GOT multiple opinions. All but ONE of them weren’t what she wanted to hear. So she went with the one who did.

          • WordSpinner

            In this case, it was more like saying, “I don’t think it is illogical to leave my children unbuckled in the car because the odds are low I am going to crash. Those other three times were complete accidents.”

          • Young CC Prof

            It was just coincidence that my breaks failed three times in a row. Forget that mechanic who told me I need to maintain them, he’s just fearmongering.

          • WordSpinner

            And it was the only three times she’d ever driven before.

      • Life Tip

        But shouldn’t the CNM provide the patient with some care because it would be even riskier for the patient to have no care, according to your previous reasoning?

        Or, in your view, are providers just negligent no matter what? Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

        • Hush

          A CNM is not bound by EMTALA laws. Also, she shouldn’t just drop a patient she should give written 30 day notice.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            If she works at a hospital she is.

          • Hush

            I was speaking of a private practice CNM that doesn’t work at a hospital. Not terribly common but do exist.

        • moto_librarian

          There would be far fewer of these idiotic shenanigans going on at home if providers would refuse to attend to them.

          • Hush

            I don’t think she would’ve stayed at home like that without the CNM giving her a thumbs up.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Then the CNM bears some of the blame and is a completely terrible person who doesn’t understand obstetrics. Does that make you feel better?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            yes,the CNM enabled her disaster, but still, how did she end up with that CNM? Because no one else would give her the answer she wanted.

            Ultimately, she was going to find someone who would do it her way, because that is how she insisted it would be. If not that CNM, then it would have been some clueless CPM. Because nothing was going to prevent her from getting her way.

            And that was her choice.

          • Trixie

            I speculate that the “doula” who was with her was a birth hobbyist and possibly a CPM who was gung-ho to rack up stunt birth points and possibly get a catch by delaying the CNMas long as possible.

          • Hush

            I wonder if it was a CPM and not a doula. I know “doulas” who are actually midwives.

          • Hush

            That’s not necessarily true. I would not have had a home birth with my last kiddo if I had not been able to find a CNM.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How long would you have shopped until you found one?

          • fiftyfifty1

            Ok, so the CNM is to blame for enabling the choices that led to this dead baby. What if this woman had labored in hospital and ruptured and the baby died there? Who would be to blame then? Ruptures are extremely dangerous, even in the hospital.

          • Hush

            Wouldn’t it be her apparently very angry uterus’s fault? She went into labor at 38 weeks, which is before most scheduled cesareans. I suppose she may have sued them anyway but I’m not sure for what.

          • fiftyfifty1

            You’re not sure for what? Looks like you’re neither a lawyer nor an OB.

          • Stacy21629

            “before most scheduled cesareans”
            I’m not an OB but I can all but GUARANTEE you that if this woman had stayed with an OB practice they would have scheduled to deliver her as soon as she hit term. Again, paying attention to her specific obstetric history they would have tailored her care specifically for her and would not have scheduled her when “most” RCSs are done because it would have been inappropriate for HER. They would have tested/treated for lung maturity and gotten that baby out. At most, he would have spent 1-3 weeks in the NICU learning to breathe, eat and regulate his temperature and he would have gone home 100% healthy.

            But that’s not what she wanted. Overall – and her own statements bare this out – she wanted a vaginal delivery. Not to take home a 100% healthy baby.

            In the end, her selfishness earned her NEITHER.

        • Dr Kitty

          Someone removes one of their moles with an exactly knife, sews themselves up with cotton thread and develops an infection.

          Do you

          A) blame the surgeon who refused to do the surgery in the patient’s home, but offered to do it for free in their clinic?

          Or

          B) blame the person who thought doing surgery on themselves at home was preferable to a plastic surgeon doing it in a clinic?

          • Mishimoo

            Oh goodness, that reminds me of the time my brother dug out a plantar wart with a hobby knife because our mother wouldn’t take him to the doctor. I’m so glad that lucked out and didn’t get sick, and that he learnt not to do home surgery.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            Oh god, that is totally foul. Eeewwwww.

      • anne

        “Trying to allow a baby to come out the vagina when at that current moment there is no emergency indication for a cesarean”

        In the NCB world the only valid reason for a c-section is an emergency taking place before your eyes. That’s like strapping a kid into the car seat when another car is about to hit yours.

        In this case there were several indications that a c-section was the safest route.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Yes!

        • Hush

          No, there are lots of valid reasons for cesareans. Including because a woman wants one. There are only a couple of valid reasons for going against a woman’s wishes, though.

          • OldTimeRN

            When mothers to be obtain their medical degrees from a medical school as opposed to Google University, then they’ll be educated enough to go against another professional’s medical opinion. Until then they need to get off Google and go listen to their doctors. Besides OBs and Ped’s what other doctors are challenged so much? Do some think they get their medical expertise from a cracker jack box?

          • Hush

            Oh bologna. I don’t know where to start tearing apart this type of argument. Overwhelmingly women who are more well educated have better health outcomes with birth. More education means people who are MUCH more likely to be skeptical of what their doctor is saying to them. Somehow this is does NOT lead to poorer outcomes as you would seem to indicate that it would. Poorer outcomes, by far, occur in low income areas where women have either little prenatal care or shitty over-worked doctors who if they DID have someone question them would knee-jerk treat them like shit. You obviously have never worked in a (I am in a rural area) poverty stricken area.. because I will tell you that challenging what a medical pro tells a woman on medicaid can gain the woman a one-way ticket to being treated like the idiot you seem to think that I am. And then you want me to trust you! Haha. Right.

          • Mariana Baca

            Black women and certain other minorities have lower outcomes even when controlled for socioeconomic class due to genetics. Since poor people are overwhelmingly minorities, this skews the result, plus add issues of malnutrition, poor health access, etc, there are too many confounding factors to attribute this to bad doctor advice/not questioning doctors.

            More education is correlated with better socioeconomic class, better lifetime healthcare, etc, and in general, in this country, there is a correlation with being white or asian which have better health outcomes. It might lead them to be skeptical of doctors, but given the percentages of women that choose homebirth are extremely low, it is unlikely a confounding variable.

            Your anecdote is too messy to be useful.

          • guest

            Au contraire, I am from a rather large city, white, privileged blah blah blah, most of the women (and men, for that matter), trust their medical professionals. As a professional myself (non-medical), I know when I am way out of my league. The research I do is on the doctors themselves, word of mouth on their bedside manner, how smart they are. Once I’ve agreed to their care, I expect their advice to be good and I trust them. There just isn’t any reason not to if you have a good provider.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            And then we look at homebirth outcomes. Which are terrible.

            These educated, upper class women have neonatal mortality rates 3x to 8x higher than all births in hospital. Every birth to every mother of any risk type. That’s right, it’s safer to be an obese poor Native American 15-year-old with twins giving birth in a hospital than it is to be a college-educated upper-class White woman with a singleton at homebirth.

            The outcomes of homebirth are ideal evidence that being very educated doesn’t stop you from being very stupid.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Again, I follow Feminerd, nodding sagely. She is wise.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            *blush* Thank you. I don’t normally comment this much, but Hush just … rubbed me the wrong way, I guess.

      • Trixie

        She had the support of a homebirth CNM. The hospital CNM told her not to VBAC.

        • lilin

          Ah, the old, “I’ll keep asking until I get the answer I like,” trick. Doesn’t work with Magic 8 balls either.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Kids are good at that.

            Ask mom. She says no. Ask dad. He says no. Ask Grandma. She says no. Grandpa? No. Other grandparents? No. Aunt Roxanne? No. Uncle Todd? Ah, he agrees!

            “But Uncle Todd said it was ok!”

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            Uncle Todd is AWESOME!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Everyone’s favorite uncle!

          • Mishimoo

            He gives the best highfives!

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            My son (3.5) regularly protests that his bff (also 3.5) said it was ok.

            BUT JACK SAID YES!

            No amount of “Jack is not the boss of our house” affects this. I’m just meen.

          • Mishimoo

            Our kids blame each other: “But mum, she told me to do it!”. It did not work as well as they thought it would when they tried to blame the youngest (nearly 10 months old).

        • Hush

          A CNM is supposed to be at a much higher standard than a CPM, I can see a woman believing their opinion holds much more weight.

      • lilin

        Yes, and the evidence it is based on indicates that the kid was going to die. Which it did. Because its mother made a bad choice.

        She is allowed to reject doctors advice. I’m not saying otherwise. It’s her body, and she has full right to decide what to do with it. I’m saying doctors are allowed to refuse to do medical procedures that fall below their own standards of care and will force them to be part of a baby’s death. The doctors couldn’t, in this case, say, “I will force you to not kill your child.” They can, and did, say, “I will not help you kill your child.”

      • lilin

        Oh that is beautiful!

        The doctors were mean and unsupportive! They should support her! The system sucks!

        The CNM supported her! What the CNM negligent, though? Probably.

        Either way, clearly, the only woman not to blame is the woman who was given the free choice as to what care she would accept, and chose the one that she knew had a higher chance of killing her kid because a “healthy baby” isn’t her only priority, and killed her kid. Support her or don’t support her, the evil “system” is to blame.

      • Amy

        Uh, the evidence supports cesarean as the far better choice for someone with her obstetric history. She provider-shopped until she found someone to support her.

      • OldTimeRN

        Why should an OB or a MW worth her weight in gold support this woman’s choice? Why would they want to put their professional license on the line when there is a perfectly good alternative? Contrary to woo belief, the goal of a pregnancy/labor/delivery and in my opinion the only goal is to deliver an alive baby. Not the scent of the candles, or the bond between you and your husband, or your(general your) strength as a warrior woman/Momma bear.

        • Hush

          This type of condescending attitude about what a woman wants out of a birth, imo, is precisely why some women stop trusting the system you wish very much that she had trusted. You all want to blame “NCB” when you need to take a look in the mirror!

          • Busbus

            My first birth (a homebirth) was very disappointing and almost traumatic for me (and there wasn’t even a medical problem – just pain, and a less than stellar midwife.) I carried that grudge around with me for a very long time.
            Based on NCB stuff I read and prenatal classes I took at the time, it felt to me like a wonderful birth experience was to be expected, was my “right” in some way. I thought that millennia of women had feared labor only because they “did it wrong” (fear causes pain, right!?), and I didn’t understand at all that even today, birth is risky, especially without immediate access to modern medical care.

            Today, I feel like I have grown up. I don’t expect or demand “blissful” – not because of “evil” doctors, but because that’s an expectation that completely misunderstands the nature of giving birth. Since the beginnings of time, birth has been many things (excruciating, dangerous, painful, feared, awesome, life- and death-bringing, etc.), but blissful has not usually been one of them. Blissful to hold your healthy newborn – yes. Blissful to have come out the other end alive (however you got there) – yes. But blissful birth? I’m not saying that it never happens, but creating this expectation means setting an overwhelming majority of women up for disappointment. (And given the amount of pain that is involved, I would assume that your best bet for a “blissful” experience is to get an epidural.)

            In that light, all those NCB expectations and memes (from the insufferable “mama warrior”-language to the myriad of other things a birth should “accomplish,” besides a healthy baby) do seem to be a little beside the point. The way these images are sold to pregnant women becomes, well, suspect. So, I don’t begrudge it OldTimeRN to poke fun at them. In fact, I don’t think that we are dong anybody any favors by pretending that the “gritty reality” of birth doesn’t exist, or that it was possible to wish it away by NCB preparation.

            I am not saying this to be condescending to anyone who wishes for these things – I did, too, and I’d still wish for a good experience for myself, after making sure the baby is ok. But I do think that we need to seriously question these tendencies to worship birth as this one thing that is supposed to heal us, prove our worth, or set everything right. Put like that, it is a little silly, isn’t it?

            From my own anecdotal perception, it seems that women who didn’t expect roses, and who didn’t try to conform to the NCB ideal in the first place, come out much more confident and happier from whatever birth experience they ended up having. In NCB circles, it seems that I have listened to one tearful, disappointing birth story after the other (the narratives that are shared on blogs invariably appear better than the ones I’ve been told in person.)

            Some NCBers will take this as evidence that hospitals are screwing things up, but I actually think that this is just how birth is. It’s easy to believe that your labor was only so painful because you were in the hospital, but one look at history or less fortunate regions shows that labor is excruciating even in the absence of hospitals or modern interventions. And we ARE fortunate that most of our disappointments center around atmosphere, pain, and c-sections, and not around injury or death – even if it might not immediately feel that way when you are grieving the loss of the idealized NCB-dream birth you’ve been building up in your head for the past 9 months.

          • Hush

            I was actually thinking it was condescending to assume that women want the NCB myths or always expect it all to be some sort of ideal. Or that a woman could not have had a terrible experience related to something other than NCB myth seeking. Least on my mind when I had my first was momma bear/scented candles/completely natural birth/painless ? birth. I simply wanted to be treated in a respectful way and I think generally that is what women want. I was not treated in such a way that would be considered respectful at all times and that is also a frequent theme from women I speak to…

          • Maria

            Well, then to counter your experience and the anecdotes you have heard: I had two hospital births, one vaginal and one c-section. For both I was treated with respect and kindness from EVERY doctor and nurse I saw from beginning to end. Even the nurses who were not very warm and fuzzy were very respectful of me and my decisions. Every step of the way I was briefed as to what was happening and consulted when a decision needed to be made. I never felt that any decisions were taken out of my hands nor did I feel pressured into doing something that I had originally not wanted to do (or vice versa). Perhaps my experience does not jibe with your perception of what medical care for women is like, but since you seem to be basing it on anecdotes from other women, I just wanted to throw my experience out there for you to consider and perhaps revise your worldview just a tad.

          • Hush

            I fully believe there are situations and doctors and nurses and midwives etc. that make women feel heard, do not go against consent, and would not think to be inappropriate. However, I know many women who have been very mistreated and not in a “oh no, not a hep lock” way but in a basic human rights violations sort of way..

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Being treated respectfully is a very important goal.

            It is worth complaining about (that is, lodging a formal complaint) if that doesn’t happen. It is worth fighting for. It is not worth killing your baby for, especially only a fear of instead of any actual evidence that local hospitals and OBs were going to be anything less than respectful. Respect means being treated like an adult, not that doctors will cater to your every whim.

          • Hush

            Okay if you can separate out my personal beliefs with what I feel about female autonomy in general.. I of course do not expect someone to “cater to my every whim” but I think you and I could have a different view on what is appropriate doctor/patient behavior.. Someone else said that they would accept sexist/patriarchal type behavior from a physician.. Well classic sexist behavior is to continue doing what you were doing despite a woman protesting no. My personal belief is I don’t believe it is within their right to touch me if I revoke consent.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I am extremely in favor of autonomy in general for both men and women. That means that this woman, while doing something incredibly stupid, shouldn’t be jailed for doing it. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be called out for it, though- just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

            By the same token, this woman has no right to try to force doctors to do something that goes against all their medical training and ethics. Doctors, too, are people with agency and autonomy. Putting them in a situation where they would be forced to helplessly watch a woman kill her baby and possibly herself by refusing all appropriate medical treatment is quite possibly the worst thing you could do to a doctor. Doctors and nurses get PTSD too- this is the sort of thing that’s almost guaranteed to do it.

            Classic sexist behavior is indeed continuing when a woman says no. However, it’s also done to both men and women to save their lives, because doctors are sworn to save lives. A male patient who is saying “no, no” to life-saving surgery is just as likely to be pressured as a female one. You’re right, they can’t touch you if you revoke consent. But by the same token, if you’re going to refuse their treatment and medical advice, you have no right to force them to watch helplessly.

            What is legal and what is ethical are two very different things. This woman had every legal right to take the risk she did. That doesn’t mean she should have. She shouldn’t have. It was a stupid decision and it had predictably bad outcomes and it is not only okay, but the only ethical option, to condemn her choice. It was a really bad choice, and that must be pointed out to try to prevent others from making the same terrible choice.

          • http://housefulofchaos.com/ Christy

            Rejecting medical help because a doctor is sexist is like cutting off your nose to smite the face. File a grevience, call the police, lead a campaign for better anti discrimination education for hospital staff… whatever, but don’t do something where you would risk having to go home to chilildren and explain that you let their sibling die so nasty sexist people wouldn’t treat you bad.

      • Renee Martin

        A hospital VBA2C is not unreasonable, and we have hospitals here that do them. The catch? The mom has to be a good candidate. This woman was an obvious rupture waiting to happen. And in retrospect, they were totally right! Of course they said NO, it would have been reckless to approve of this.

        The MFM and OB said NO, even a layman can see she was a horrible candidate, even with this most basic of information.
        SHE chose to ignore them. Thus, its HER fault.

        I wonder if that CNM really supported her, or just did the best she could with the situation. I can see her supporting the moms choice, all while warning against it. NOT approval at all.

      • Stacy21629

        “Bleeding a child is a completely non-evidence based choice”
        A VBA2C with 3 prior pre term deliveries and NO term vaginal deliveries is also a completely non-evidence based choice.

        Please, show us the evidence that a VBA2C with 3 prior pre term deliveries and NO term vaginal deliveries is safe.

  • Karen in SC

    My memory isn’t too good. I think a list of names of babies who lost their lives in an HBAC or attempted HBAC needs to be on this post. Since someone thinks doctors are just crying wolf when giving informed consent. It has been said, “Sometimes the Dead Baby Card = a dead baby.” Is that crying wolf?

  • Guesteleh

    Question for Hush: You keep saying this woman should’ve been cared for at the hospital. What kind of care do you think she should’ve received? And how do you think that care would’ve prevented this disaster?

  • anne

    The more I read what she says the more disgusted I am.

    “My first daughter was a PPROM at 31.5wks, born natural vaginal in about 4
    hrs post rupture . No augment or meds to stop labor. Was amazing”

    Seriously? My friends that had preemie labors were scared for their kids, not glad they had a vaginal birth.

    “My breech baby girl also had ‘low fluid’ … [They] told us if we didn’t surgically deliver that day my daughter would die”

    Pre-term, breech, and low fluid and she’s pissed she had a c-section?

    ” my hubby and I even had social workers sent in for us because
    my RN (who was 8months pregnant) couldn’t understand that a healthy baby
    was NOT my only goal outcome.”

    No, normal, healthy people are not going to understand why a healthy baby is not your goal.

    “But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding.”

    WTF?

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Yup. It birthed a baby right into her spleen, just as nature intended.

      • ngozi

        That is a variation of normal, doncha know?

        • Carolina

          Death is indeed a variation of normal. Oh well.

    • Jessica S.

      She sounds happier about her uterus, usually people talk that way about their children. :/

      • Busbus

        I noticed that, too. That’s also part of the NCB universe: Your worth is tied to the functioning of your body parts.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “But my uterus did its job. The scar opened, birthed a baby and placenta and it shut down the bleeding.”

      Yes, isn’t this sad? But it’s the result of Ina May’s “Your body is not a lemon” propaganda taken to its logical extreme. Because what Ina May really means is that your uterus IS a lemon unless it births on its own. So that’s why it’s better to have your uterus “birth” a baby by rupturing internally into your spleen and killing the baby. Because at least it did it on its own.

  • ngozi

    Can everyone see all the comments, or is it just my computer?

    • Trulyunbelievable2020

      NSA

    • Siri

      No, my computer can see them too.

    • MLE

      It’s glitchy for me right now since the comments are hopping

    • Jessica S.

      I’m having problems getting past a certain point, when I hit “load more comments” it pops me back up to the same spot without loading anything new. :( I tried minimizing the threads I’ve read but it doesn’t seem to help.

      • Mishimoo

        Same here!

      • Siri

        Try sorting the comments ‘oldest first’; that worked for me. You just read them from the bottom up.

        • Jessica S.

          That’s what ended up doing, too. Thanks! :)

  • Anonymous

    Let’s see how long we can go without someone parachuting in and threatening a lawsuit here.

    • Anon

      A lawsuit for what?

      • Trulyunbelievable2020

        Some of those who don’t care for Dr. Amy think that quoting a public blog entry is an actionable tort. They are wrong, but it’s pretty funny.

        • Trixie

          I’m not sure if this VBAC support board realizes they’ve been quoted yet.

  • ngozi

    I was GD and high risk for several other reasons with my last pregnancy. I was experiencing some health issues that she wanted to monitor more closely, so my OB suggested hospital bedrest until I deliver (I was 37 weeks at the time). My protein levels in my urine were slightly high. At that time, my newborn looked fine. I declined, not because I just wanted to be disagreeable, but because I didn’t have the proper care for my children at home. My doctor was fine with this as long as I got more rest, and continued to make all my appointments, and try to manage my GD to the best of my ability. I left with the understanding that if things got worse then I really would need to go into the hospital.
    A week later an appointment was missed (she cancelled) and I didn’t get to be seen until 3 1/2 days later. My son was dying and was not able to tolerate the baby contractions I was having. The placenta didn’t have the oxygen. After seeing the terrible NST I gladly consented to the C-section, even though I had been deathly afraid of C-sections for years (because I am afraid of all surgeries, not just sections).
    I still feel guilty that I didn’t go on bedrest, even though my doctor said it was okay. It was my choice, but I am not sure it was the right one.
    Sorry if this is off topic. There is a thread about patient choices below.

    • attitude devant

      It is not off topic. I’m sorry; what a miserable situation. It is always hard to juggle the needs of the one we are carrying with the ones we have and adore and are raising. I get it; I have been in your shoes. How is he now?

      • ngozi

        He is doing wonderful now, but was in the NICU at first. He is a cute, spoiled little baby boy who loves to chomp on his fingers and push his little feet into my back (I actually sit so he can do this, he loves it so much). I just wanted to point out, that things turned out well and I still feel guilty. I don’t get any of that from this woman in the story. She didn’t seem to learn anything at all.

        • attitude devant

          I have a similar story, having to do more with guilt over bearing children while in a high-stress occupation. Baby is now 19 and just fine. But yes, I still feel guilty. I have a hard time understanding this mother in this story.

          • Mishimoo

            I’m having a hard time understanding her too. I just can’t imagine going through the stress of a low risk pregnancy, let alone a high risk one like hers; have the baby die a preventable death in labour, and then just seemingly brush it off as ‘unavoidable’.

  • http://Www.awaitingjuno.blogspot.com/ Mrs. W

    Is a healthy baby “enough” – no – but a dead or disabled child who did not need to be either dead or disabled is a clear failing. I feel for this mother – she has lost her baby because she was in a place where success was defined as giving birth vaginally. She was there because the voices of those who espouse “natural” were overwhelming to her – she was there because she could not resolve the conflict between what she needed in her own personal situation – and what she saw as being desireable. She gambled and lost – but I’m not sure she was clear on what the “win” would have been had she gambled and everything had turned out okay – nor on the loss and all it would have entailed. Do we judge an anorexic for aspiring to an unattainable ideal? Perhaps the phenomenom of aspiring to a natural, vaginal delivery – regardless of the feasibility in personal circumstance is more akin to an eating disorder. These women need counselling – not scorn.

    • Busbus

      You know what? Maybe you’re right, at least in extreme cases such as this. And I think it’s good to have compassion. But what does that make the NCB-industry? Enablers?

      • http://Www.awaitingjuno.blogspot.com/ Mrs. W

        It makes the NCB industry the same as the high-fashion industry and diet industries. It makes them the same as the drug dealers that supply to addicts. This woman made a bad choice – but she didn’t do so in a vacuum, and she seems to have a rather skewed perception about things.

    • Amazed

      By this token, we should just absolve everyone who chose to believe something wrong and thus produced grave consequences when clearly presented with other options because crowd, cult, and so on. Every crazy idea can be likened to an eating disorder.

      Where’s the line between being influenced and being, eh, responsible for your actions?

      I’ve written it here before: the only person, out of everyone I know, that I’ll give a free pass to for not being responsible for her actions is a mentally ill aunt. Certified.

      She was a RN, for Pete’s sake. Not a poor woman taken advantage of. Sure, my two cents are that she’s the same joke as a RN that she’s as a mother but still. She must have at least some knowledge other than, “I wanna, I wanna, I wanna and I didn’t know he’d die because I wanted and even after he died, I still wanna.”

  • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

    It is the height of narcissism to make an argument that “but I WANNA” is more important than a child’s life.

  • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

    I just want to throw this out there, I had a c-section with my first pregnancy because I have a fused pelvis, fused spine with pedicle screws (30 screws) and rod stabilization. It just wasn’t a good idea to have a vag birth and ya know what? I did what my doctor suggested and had an awesome experience, my baby was born screaming and I got to relax and bond with my baby and husband instead of worrying about him getting stuck in my pelvis, breaking my implantation hardware (which happened anyways) and everything was fine. I’m 17.5 weeks now and will have a scheduled c-section at 39 wks, why might the NCB advocates ask? Because I want my baby to live, be born healthy and it is what the evidence calls for in my situation. The plus side is my pelvic floor stays intact, (whoot whoot) and hopefully this baby doesn’t break my back like the last one. Shit happens and I’m prepared for it, but I’m not going to make shit decisions to have a vaginal birth when it doesn’t make sense.

    • Dr Kitty

      As a fellow Cyborg, I concur.

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

        Thank you for your support Dr. Kitty! I was lambasted by a colleague today for not considering a TOLAC and was told, “Your repeat C/S is more dangerous than a v/b and your child is going to suffer because of your ignorance.” I hope her next homebirth goes well!

        • Dr Kitty

          C/S is safer for YOU and YOUR baby because you, unlike most people, have scads of metal screwed into your bones.

          Babies don’t usually suffer from a CS, except for TTN, which is, as the name implies, TRANSIENT.

          Unlike the damage which a uterine rupture or an obstructed labour due to CPD could lead to…

          As the kids are saying, you do you, and ignore the smug judgemental jerks.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            Funny that you brought up TTN, she kept throwing that around like I didn’t know what it was, which had me laughing hysterically! I’m a RRT, and TTN is serious, but it doesn’t kill unless it goes undiagnosed at a homebirth (in my experience.)
            Trust me, I’ve been ignoring her since she started here. She is going to get fired by flu season anyways because she is anti-vax, so luckily she won’t be around when I have my dangerous repeat c/s, lol!

  • moto_librarian

    I said this in a reply below, but it bears repeating. “If a hospital can’t handle a rupture during a VBAC, they shouldn’t be delivering babies at all because an emergency can occur.” I hear this ALL THE TIME from NCB advocates. Here’s why your reasoning is flawed: Huge swaths of the United States are still rural and sparsely populated. There needs to be some level of care available, but a small population cannot support a tertiary care center. If you come in with a critical condition, the hospital will stabilize you and then transfer you to a facility that can manage the problem. Most deliveries can be handled because EFM gives early warning signs of a problem and anesthesia can be called in, an OR prepped, etc. These resources are simply not available all the time, and in the case of a uterine rupture (a KNOWN RISK OF VBAC), both you and your baby can die if a stat section cannot be performed. Knowing this, hospitals ban VBACs, knowing that women can go to a larger facility if this is what they really want to do. (Of course in this case, this woman was deemed unsuitable for a TOL because of an abysmal obstetric history, but I digress). I have yet to hear anyone claim that neurosurgery should be available at every hospital that has an emergency department. There is an understanding that this is a very intensive type of surgery requiring great expertise and resources that not every hospital can have. Transfer to a tertiary care facility is required. The same reasoning applies to VBAC. If you cannot safely support them, then you cannot expect them to be an option. Find a different hospital or have a RCS.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

      and somehow that argument justifies a homebirth. Completely contradictory and makes no sense, none!

      • moto_librarian

        Yeah, I don’t think they would suggest having a hole drilled in your head at home with a power tool…Then again, who knows anymore?

        • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

          LMMFAO!!!

        • Karen in SC

          But but Izzy totally did that in a parking garage in an episode of Grey’s Anatomy!!

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      If a hospital can’t handle an emergency rupture from a VBAC, it shouldn’t be doing VBACs. That means that quite a lot of hospitals shouldn’t be doing VBACs. And, astonishingly, quite a lot therefore DON’T do VBACs. A home or non-hospital based birthing center can’t handle a uterine rupture. Therefore, what does that say about the reasonableness of home birth, especially for VBACs?

    • anne

      I live in an urban area with tons of hospitals and they still each have differing levels of care/expertise they are able to provide depending on what’s happening with the patient. Some take care of high risk pregnancies, some have higher level NICU’s, some have specialty pediatric emergency rooms, etc.

    • Pilo

      I recently traveled to a very small community hospital. When I say small, I mean it. They had 3 total patients in their entire hospital on the day I arrived, and averaged 5 or fewer births (of any variety) per month. The staff were well-trained and equipped as best as possible.
      They are tied in to a much larger hospital network that has helicopters to transfer patients to a tertiary care center when needed, and in-room cameras where they can IMMEDIATELY conference with neonatologists, high-risk OBs, maternal fetal medicine specialists, etc. Because it is in the same hospital network, those providing consultation can immediately see all labs, EFM tracings, etc. They also provide guidance during resuscitation if needed.
      This hospital consistently loses money. They don’t have the population to support the services that they provide. But if they weren’t there, there would honestly be no hospital services of any variety within a several hundred mile radius.
      Do they “allow” VBACs? Absolutely not! It would be ridiculous to do so. But that doesn’t warrant staying home because you’re more cozy there.

    • Hush

      Okay, what happens in a *different birth* emergency at a hospital that cannot handle a uterine rupture?

      • Young CC Prof

        You know, if you get EFM and are being monitored by a skilled doctor, a complication requiring STAT c-section completely unpreceded by warning signs or risk factors is actually pretty rare. Rarer than the 0.5%-5% risk of rupture at VBAC, anyway.

        • Hush

          Warning signs.. so regular hospitals cannot handle anything but straight-forward low-risk vaginal births unless they are prepared for something more specifically?? They always do inductions “with someone there and an OR ready” even though that is bullshit and lies, lies and bullshit. I have had many friends be induced both at night and without the doctor even in the building..

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Have you ever heard the aphorism, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”? That’s what obstetrics is about, preventing complications that are far more easily prevented than cured.

            A hospital can accommodate emergencies when it must, but it grossly irresponsible to let them happen if they could be prevented in the first place.

          • Hush

            While we’re mis-characterizing … Are you suggesting everyone have early elective cesareans.. and only 2 of them at that? ?

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            No, what she’s suggesting is that when a specific patient’s specific medical history unquestionably indicates that a VBAC is a terrible idea, you shouldn’t have a VBAC. If you do, it’s your own damned fault if you happen to kill your baby.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            *Shrug* Hospitals in my area can handle it, but I live in a big city with lots of hospitals.

            If I lived out in Nowheresville, Nowhere, where there was only one hospital within 200 miles, then yes, they can only handle low-risk births unless they are specifically prepared for something more. They send their high-risk patients to other hospitals, where the women stay in hotels or motels, sometimes for months, to get the care they need that the local hospital cannot provide.

          • KarenJJ

            I live in Nowheresville, Nowhere (great local hospitals but nothing beyond that for thousands of kilometres) and people fly in from hundreds/thousands of kilometres to stay near the big hospitals and give birth. Even a kid with a fractured leg in a mining town gets flown down to the big children’s hospital here via the flying doctors.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Australia?

          • Dr Kitty

            I really enjoyed my elective in Broken Hill as a medical student.
            There were several farmers’ wives who stayed in town with friends or relatives or in the hospital from 35weeks or so.

            If you live on a sheep farm the size of Wales/New Jersey and the nearest human being is over 50miles away in the bush from your farmhouse, you do NOT want to have a surprise UC.

          • Mishimoo

            At a guess, it’s probably the same one I was flown down from a mining town to stay at for a week (doctors wanted two weeks, mother disagreed) while they were trying to figure out what was going on with my joints. It’s a really good hospital, and Miss Maud’s is nice and close for pastry bribes to do physio properly. One of the nurses hung out with me for most of the first night because I was too scared to sleep and even brought me ice cream at 3am!

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Why would inductions require an OR ready any more than any other birth?

          • OldTimeRN

            The hospital I work in can handle it. For one, we have in house anesthesia 24/7. We have neonatologists in house 24/7. We also have residents and a attending OB supervising around the clock. If your OB couldn’t make it for an emergency, then the attending supervising doc would step in with a resident and deliver the baby.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Do you realize that a CS on a woman with a previous scar is a riskier and more difficult operation than on a woman without a scar? I know some rural family practitioners who have been CS trained who can and will do c-sections in a pinch. That is a hell of a lot different than signing on to supervise a type of birth (VBAC) where it is known that at least 1 in 200 will involve a ruptured uterus and the need to do a STAT c-section under general anesthesia through a scared uterus!

            They can do c-sections but they don’t do VBACs!

          • araikwao

            I think it’s more than just the uterus that’s scared in a situation like that :P

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Babies die.

        That’s why hospitals that are not well-equipped to handle a uterine rupture do not handle cases that are high risk for that happening.

        You know, like VBACS.

      • Stacy21629

        It means that, unfortunately, in extremely rare scenarios a healthy baby carried by a healthy mom may suffer a catastrophic, unpredictable birth injury or death. You think that baby would have a better shot at survival at home? At least in ANY hospital that baby has a chance because at least the OR EXISTS there, as opposed to one’s living room.

        That’s not what we’re discussing here.

        This mother’s history was such that her baby’s catastrophic death WAS 100% predictable. So if she was going to attempt a VBA2C the only responsible thing to do would be to be in a hospital with IMMEDIATE access to an OR.

  • Anonymous

    Idiot. She needs to be charged.

    • anne

      I believe in autonomy over your body but this case really rides the line for me – it seems like it could be considered negligent homicide or something similar.

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

        That is what I’m preaching, there’s a thin line between autonomy and negligence!

  • luckymama75

    God, this story is just so sad. My heart breaks for the poor baby boy who suffered before he was able to even live. And no, there’s not one shred of pity for a “lost birth experience”. It’s the same way you don’t feel sorry for the drunk driver who decides to drag race for the experience and plows into another car. You grieve for the child he killed in that car.

  • Zornorph

    It just seems the height of selfishness to value your ‘birth experience’ over the life of your baby, especially when you have to overrule the objections and concerns of the other parent. To say nothing of the siblings who lost their baby brother. Everybody seems to focus on events these days, and not life. They want the perfect proposal, the perfect wedding the perfect birth. Wouldn’t you be okay with an unimaginative proposal, a wedding where it rained and the best man got drunk and a C-Section birth for a long and happy marriage filled with healthy children?

    • ngozi

      Well said.

    • Suzanne

      Wow Zornorph…You DO have a sensitive side! :) Couldn’t agree with you more!

      • Zornorph

        I know I can come across a bit snarky and bull-headed sometimes online, but in real life, my sensitive side is so prominent that I have sometimes had people stereotypically wonder if I’m gay because of it. Thanks. :)

        • Karen in SC

          Not that there’s anything wrong with that!!

          • Zornorph

            No, not at all. I sort of shrug at it now, though it did bother me when I was younger. At this stage of my life, I could care less what other people think about such things.

          • Karen in SC

            That was my pop culture quote for the day…gotta keep up with you & Bofa :)

          • luckymama75

            I get the Seinfeld reference lol

    • toni

      Definitely!

    • AmyP

      Not to mention that the experience she wound up with would supply a normal person with PTSD flashbacks for a good decade.

      She chose the experience over a live baby, and she got a terrible experience.

      • ngozi

        …and a dead baby, which is far worse!

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

      Super agreed.

      There’s a lot of superstition that how something starts is how it’ll continue. That has some merit sometimes, but for big events like births or weddings, it’s just not true. The event is one day- the relationship is for a long time if not life. One day is just one day in years and years of days.

    • Dr Kitty

      I was proposed to at the taxi rank of an airport.
      I lost my voice the day of my wedding and croaked my way through the vows. A table collapsed at our reception during the toast.

      Still a great proposal, still a great wedding, still a great marriage…

      Positive attitude, perspective and a sense of humour will get you through most things.

      • ngozi

        I’m sorry, I had to laugh at the table.

        • Dr Kitty

          It was funny!
          Everyone’s glasses were in their hands for the toast, and the plates had just been cleared, so it was less disastrous than if it had happened during the meal.

          To the best of my knowledge the party continued until 6am (I’m Irish, remember), so I don’t think our guests minded much.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        Heh, I proposed. My then-boyfriend and I had been living together for years, so I rolled over as we were going to sleep and said, “We’re going to get married, right?”

        He replied, “Yeah, that was the plan anyways”.

        Me, “Oh, we should tell everyone and start planning then.”

        And we were engaged. It was the most unromantic proposal ever.

        • FormerPhysicist

          Nope. We were filling out an apartment application and the apartment manager said “I can’t consider your income jointly unless you are engaged.” We wrote down engaged. Then we left and said “So, we’re engaged, should we call and tell our parents?”

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Lol nice! You’re right, your proposal was less romantic than mine.

        • Lost

          We designed the engagement ring together. We paid for the ring, we possessed the ring. A few months later, he asks, “Are you going to wear the ring?”

          • Lost

            P.s. At this point I was still hoping for the official proposal, “Will you marry me?”

            Maybe I’ll ask it at our vow renewal.

          • KarenJJ

            My husband didn’t have a ring when he proposed (very romantic – in our garden). We went to have a look at the shops afterwards, gave up and bought a wheelbarrow at the hardware store.

            So I got an engagement wheelbarrow.

            We sorted out the ring a few weeks later.

      • ngozi

        The lights went out while I was getting married. It was an informal event at my mother-in-law’s

      • Carrie Looney

        It’s our horrible wedding stories that my friends and I share and laugh about and enjoy years later. Having things go wrong at a wedding seems like a rite of passage – and being able to roll with it and have it be fun for everyone anyway seems a good way to approach marriage. Ditto kids. They’re going to be doing something unexpected that you might not like or approve of at some point – why not start off by arriving that way?

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          At my niece Elizabeith’s* wedding last year, the fire alarm went off during the service. Everyone in our area was thinking the same thing: oh, oh, didn’t my other niece’s daughter, Little Elizabeth,* go to the back of church with her Dad earlier? I hope she didn’t pull the alarm! (it was hot, so there was a “it was hot” explanation possible).

          Nope, it was Little Elizabeth.

          So we have this great story: Remember when Elizabeth pulled the fire alarm at Elizabeth’s wedding?

          *Names changed, but the story is true.

      • Hannah

        Yup. Yup. Yup.

        The best thing we ever did was get civilly married ages before our Jewish wedding. Circumstance made it necessary but it put all the wedding bullshit into such firm perspective – it’s one day in what is hopefully many, many years.

        Our wedding was gorgeous with all the little details and blah blah blah but you know what, when my brother didn’t have pants until 20 minutes before the wedding or my FIL sent a kind of insane 25 minute speech to be read by proxy as he didn’t make it in time, we could just laugh because if that’s the worst life throws at you in marriage, then you’re very lucky indeed.

        My husband proposed at the car yard and you know what, it was the most romantic thing ever.

    • BeatlesFan

      My husband proposed to me in the shower. By that, I mean he was in the shower, and called me into the bathroom to “get something out of the medicine cabinet.” The “something” was an engagement ring, and I stood there crying while he stood grinning like an idiot with the shower door open, spraying water all over the bathroom floor. The most romantic proposal ever? Hardly- yet I can’t wait until our kids are old enough to hear the story.

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

      I’ll throw my Debbie Downer story in…Our wedding was planned for the end of my second trimester – we started trying before the wedding and were surprised to get pregnant on the first try. We lost our son two weeks before our wedding, and chose to incorporate his funeral into the ceremony.

      We still had as beautiful and fun a wedding (and both got very drunk, which wasn’t in the original plan either). My dress didn’t fit right, and I wasn’t cleared to consummate the marriage until a week later.

      Our fifth anniversary is this August, a few months before our living son turns four. Our marriage is very strong and we are profoundly committed to each other and our son. We did “or worse” before we even made the vow.

      Not the happiest, perfectest start to married life, but it was OURS.

      • Mel

        I had a similar experience when my life-long best friend died the day before the wedding. I describe my wedding as bittersweet because I was happy to be marrying my husband but heart-broken at losing Jess.

        The most absurd moment came when we were greeting guests on the way into church. (I get anxious and thought my nerves would be better if I was around people. I enjoyed it for the most part.) Several people stopped, visibly startled, and blurted out “He can’t see you yet! It’s bad luck!” I smiled stiffly and whispered to my husband when they left “Because today isn’t shitty enough already….I should be hiding somewhere so the bogeymen don’t get me.”

        The kindest moment was when an older man came in and gave me a huge hug. He said to me quietly “I’m T.G – you haven’t met me yet, but I live across the street from your in-laws. My son lost two of his closest college friends in a car accident just before his wedding. You just hang in there. We’ve got your back.” And he did. By the time we got back from our honeymoon, he had made sure that everyone in the county knew about my friend’s death. He reminded people to ask specific questions about the wedding – like “Tell me about your flowers!” or “Where did you take your dance lessons?” so I could talk about the wedding without having to talk about Jess’ loss unless I wanted to. That meant a lot to me.

        • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

          (((Hugs)))

          • Mel

            ((Hugs))

  • areawomanpdx

    If she’d come in prior to the rupture and they’d done the section, she’d have a healthy baby but be crying about how the hospital abused her. I hope her story serves as warning to other women: Ricki Lake does not know more about your uterus than your doctor. I have to say, this woman must have some sort of mental illness on top of everything else. What woman gets pregnant with the idea that having a healthy baby is not the only acceptable outcome, no matter what the experience?

    • areawomanpdx

      Also, to say she’d do it again, but would rather see what the outcome was in the hospital? Knowing the baby died “in the first 10 minutes”? You want to be allowed to labor, rupture, and then have an emergency cesarean, just so you can experience labor and not a vaginal birth? Ya, there is something wrong there.

    • Maria

      I agree. I have a history of miscarriage, so for both of my kids’ pregnancies, I lived on pins and needles between appointments when I could hear that reassuring heartbeat and know that everything was tracking normally. When told I had to have a c-section for breech baby all I needed to do was take a breath and shift my frame of reference for what to expect from this birth as opposed to the first. Done. I was not disappointed because I got pregnant to have a baby and I did what I needed to do to meet that baby. Now, I know that some women have had horrible experiences around their births, but in this particular case I am having a harder time feeling sympathy. I can tell she wanted to avoid a c-section so badly, but she went in with big ol’ blinders on and her baby paid the price.

  • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

    The worst part about this whole story is this woman is an RN. She knew she was at risk for a catastrophic rupture and fetal death. Making bad decisions on the basis of my body, my baby, my decision is pure garbage. As a nurse she should have used evidence based practice and listened to her DOCTORS and decided that she was not a good candidate for VBA2C and scheduled the c-section. Who gives a flying shit how your baby is born as long as it is alive and breathing?!!!! Who wants to bet she gives her patients the same shitty advice that she based her decision on as well?!

    • attitude devant

      Gotta love the bit about how she was sure her son died quickly. So no worries, right? And how does she equate two liters of blood in her belly and shock with the uterus clamping down and stopping the bleeding?

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

        I am almost 100% positive that is was not a quick death, at all. This woman is stupid enough to get pregnant and try for another VBAC almost positively. Too bad there aren’t any professional consequences for her bad decisions.

    • areawomanpdx

      Where does it say she’s an RN? That would make it worse.

      • RN who has seen too much

        On her blog

        • areawomanpdx

          Wow. I don’t even understand that. Insane. She needed more help than a referral to social work.

      • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

        yeah, she actually shared that she is a medical professional. Hopefully, she isn’t an L&D nurse.

  • Allie P

    This is a terrible, tragic story. It is difficult to even comprehend a woman who would value vaginal birth experience over the health of her child. It is interesting to compare this to the experience of the home repair bloggers at Young House Love. During the wife’s first labor, in hospital, after a totally healthy pregnancy, she experienced a placental abruption and rupture, and was given a stat section that saved her daughter’s (now 4) life. She has been public about being advised by a doctor to space out her next pregnancy and to plan for a pre-labor c-section because of these increased risk factors. Last week, she followed her doctor’s advice and gave birth by planned section to a healthy baby boy. This is a family who clearly loves “natural” materials, organic food, low VOC paint and cleaning products, cloth diapering, etc., and yet they know that the choice of diapers are NOT equivalent to the choice of childbirth method to save their baby’s life.

    • AmyP

      Now, that’s a happy ending!

  • Hush

    You blame the mother for her choice… But if she’d had a provider who was MEH I don’t agree with this but it is YOUR BABY AND YOUR BODY please just come in as soon as you go into labor because of your history … rather than completely non supportive and actually suggesting to her that they’ll do a cesarean unless she comes in pushing (which is exactly WHY SHE DID THIS) or in a not so veiled way, threatening cesarean against her consent would this have gone down like this?

    You tell me. In a world where women actually have true agency, as they very well should, over their own bodies in a hospital… would this have happened like this? And then you all do nothing but blame the woman!

    Did she do something unnecessarily risky? Yes. Was this all her fault, and not partly a system that treats women like they are insolent children who don’t know what is best for themselves even to the point of doing things to the women against their consent and will? Yes. Either women are adult enough to become pregnant, make medical decisions for themselves and their babies, or they are not..

    These VBAC bans and VBA2 or MC bans and doctors and nurses believing that they have the right to perform surgery or procedures against a woman’s explicit consent (or sometimes with coerced consent) if they think it is somehow right, are leading sensitive or hurt women down a path where someone isn’t choking out their agency over their own bodies but on the flip it is in a VERY dangerous situation! If they stop the threats, coercion, and bans women will go back to the hospital for VBAC and follow better what the doctors are suggesting because the assumption won’t be that advice they are giving is because of policy rather than is actually a real warning or advice… The providers have just plain cried wolf too many times!

    I had a friend have an HBAC last week that had me holding my breath… If she had, had a VBAC supportive hospital within 3 hours drive she would’ve gone to the hospital.

    • Trixie

      The hospital doesn’t have a VBAC ban…they refused to attend HER VBAC because it was too risky. At least, that’s my understanding.

      • Hush

        It might have a VBA2C ban, but regardless they can’t make that decision for a woman. They should recommend against something but make it very clear they will protect a woman’s agency. The threats, the veiled threats.. they are real.

        • Karen in SC

          What about the implied threat of lawsuit should she come in, refuse a c-section and have a tragic result? That’s millions of dollars so she can “have agency.”

          • Hush

            I don’t care about the “legal issues” involved for the hospital. It is illegal to perform surgery on a woman that is not consenting without a court order.

          • Karen in SC

            Sorry, that’s part of the issue. If a provider has their hands tied, and might be hugely liable, of course they will do the utmost to get that consent.

            My kids didn’t have personal agency either – I forced them to bath and brush their teeth, and took them in for surgery that they didn’t want but needed. What a bully I was!

          • Hush

            Pregnant women are children with the reasoning of children, now, are they?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            That is NOT what she said.

          • Hush

            It is what she said to me.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Women in the throes of labor are often not capable of making decisions, due to the exigencies of extreme pain and exhaustion. We know that those circumstances make all people incapable of informed consent.

            At that point, they ask the next of kin (usually husband, sometimes parents or sibling) to sign the papers, which is legal.

            If someone presents screaming and bleeding from a bullet hole, the hospital does not get consent. Even if the person is begging for no surgery, they rush the person to the OR and operate, trying to save a life. It is not, in fact, always illegal to perform surgery on people, especially those unable to consent.

          • Hush

            But this woman had made her choice before labor, and I am positive if told that she was having a uterine rupture and needed surgery she would have consented. Instead, she was at home, with her doula.. because she was afraid of having that happen.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Irrational fears are not my problem, nor a doctor’s.

            If she would have consented to surgery after a rupture, then why didn’t she go to the hospital before it happened? As you say, they can’t force surgery. She wanted an experience- well, she got one. It’s the full homebirth experience of 1750, true to life with dead baby and hemorrhaging mother. The only difference is that there was a hospital available to handle the hemorrhage and shock from blood loss, thus the mother didn’t die as well.

            The good old days, they sucked. She got a taste of that. She made an incredibly, insanely stupid decision and she is paying for it and will pay for the rest of her life. It is still her fault, 100% her fault, that she ignored medical advice and chose to risk her life and her baby’s life so she could have an “experience”. Was it worth it? Could it ever be worth it?

          • Hush

            They CAN force surgery. They do. they may have. Just because it’s an ideal that they “can’t” doesn’t mean they don’t. She was afraid of it happening. Also, I disagree. I think partly to blame is this system.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I know you disagree. The problem is that you disagree based on zero evidence or logic, but only fears and boogeymen.

            And if they did force surgery, which is so extraordinarily rare I can’t think of a single case, the malpractice payout would be tremendously huge. She was afraid. I agree. She was wrong to be afraid, and she was wrong to let her fears control her. The only system there is to blame is the NCB fear-mongering system, which you are a part of.

          • Hush

            You really, genuinely believe that they never perform surgery against explicit consent?? That they’ve never wheeled a woman to the OR screaming or gotten a court order? You live in a bubble, then! I first-hand know a woman that was forced to have surgery. They knocked her out screaming no.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Did they save her life?

            Was she in control of her faculties? That is, could she answer the who/where/when questions coherently?

          • Hush

            I’m not really completely sure of 100% of the precise medical details. It was a breech baby. She said she said no after they unsuccessfuly tried to get her to consent and that they knocked her out yelling for her husband and no. I believed her. I also believed that a lawyer told her that she didn’t have a case because no one was “hurt”.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Breech babies are super dangerous to vaginal birth, especially if they are footling breech.

            If I were you, I wouldn’t believe her story until I saw her medical records.

          • Anj Fabian

            SHE GOT THE SURGERY!

            She got the damned surgery that she didn’t want, but apparently consented to because her predictably dysfunctional uterus decided that it wasn’t enough to consistently go into preterm labor, this time it was going to rip open and birth the baby into the woman’s abdomen. Thus killing the baby and putting the woman’s life in peril, but fortunately due to ambulances and surgeons and hospitals, the woman survived.

            I mean, if she really really really didn’t want the surgery she could have refused the transport and/or refused the surgery and simply waited until she became unconscious from the complications.

          • Trixie

            She has not written anywhere that she was threatened with surgery without consent. She’s an RN who works at a hospital. She knows how this works.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Oh, stop with your logic, Trixie! Hush prefers her own narrative.

          • Trixie

            Hush’s logic is a variation of normal.

          • Hush

            Is that an insult or an observation?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Yes.

          • Trixie

            A little of both.

          • Hush

            She actually did write that she was afraid her husband would consent for her.

          • moto_librarian

            Well, if she passed out from shock or hemorrhage due to rupture, he would indeed be consenting for her. My husband had to consent for me to be taken back to surgery to repair my cervical laceration because I was in and out of consciousness from blood loss.

          • Hush

            Yes, if she passed out it would be fine, but I don’t think at all that is what she meant. She meant garner his consent in a non-emergency.

          • Trixie

            He could only consent for her if she was incapacitated. She could always revoke his right to consent. Or, you know, listen to her husband because he was right.

        • Jessica

          A hospital is not a fast food restaurant. You don’t just get to “have it your way.” Doctors have professional judgment and a code of ethics they must follow, and should not sign off on any old procedure because a patient has “agency.”

        • Busbus

          What threats do you think they made? “Your baby might die”? That’s not a threat, that’s important information this woman needed to hear.
          We need to remember that this woman wanted something from them: medical care. Just like every other service provider, they had the right to say, if you want to work with us, these are our standards. In effect, it’s not the doctors pushing their will on her (she is always free to choose a different provider) as much as it’s her pushing her will on the entire medical staff, who will need to attend her if she decide to show up in full blown labor, even if attending her in a vaginal birth puts them into all sorts of hot waters regarding professional responsibility and ethics.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      So, you thinking lying about hospitals would have made this situation better? How so? Or are you saying that hospitals should be bullied into doing what they know is wrong and dangerous because some childish woman is more concerned with herself than her. child? I am not sure how any of your statements can be rectified

      • Hush

        What lying? And, hospitals HAVE to do abide by consent! If they don’t abide consent then, what is stopping them from performing other procedures against people’s will?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          You just said yourself that hospitals cannot perform surgery without consent and tried to pretend women do not have their own agency during labor. Which is it?

          • Hush

            I am speaking ideals.

          • lilin

            Yes, absolute agency for some people.

            Total mindless servitude for others.

            So ideal!

        • Gene

          You are correct that I as a physician cannot force you to undergo a procedure without consent (absent a court order). But you, as a patient, are in turn not able to force ME to agree to something against my better medical judgement. You can’t have it both ways.

    • Karen in SC

      Do you think she was a candidate for a VBAC with her history?

      Should women who have anorexia or bulima or cut or self-harm in other ways be allowed to have agency over their own bodies?

      • Hush

        Did she have a placenta previa? Was she deemed mentally ill and incapable of making her own choices by a court?

        • Busbus

          She did make her own choice. It was just the wrong one.

          • Hush

            Unfortunately.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            And predictably.

            That predictability is why we are being so harsh.

          • Hush

            If it was so predictable, why didn’t she predict it? I am not under the impression she was really that stupid.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            That’s funny, I am under the impression that she really was that stupid. She so desperately wanted a certain outcome that she ignored all evidence to the contrary.

            People do that all the time. They do it when they insist that trickle-down economics works, even though it quite obviously doesn’t. They do it when they insist that invading Iraq was totally about freedom and democracy, even though it quite obviously wasn’t. People are really, really good at ignoring the totally predictable consequences of their actions and ignoring historical and statistical evidence contrary to their beliefs when they want to be. It’s surprisingly hard to hold confirmation bias in check, especially when we really really really want to believe something.

            This woman really really really wanted to believe she could deliver a baby vaginally, so she ignored evidence to the contrary that was repeatedly shown to her. She could have predicted this outcome. She should have. That she didn’t is on her and choosing to let her wishes outweigh reality until she could ignore reality no longer. That’s the thing about reality. In the end, it doesn’t care what we believe. It just is.

          • Dr Kitty

            Really?
            I know plenty of smokers who are SHOcKED to discover they have completely predictable COPD, ischaemic heart disease and lung cancer.

            Knowing something might happen, and believing it might happen to you are not necessarily the same thing.

            I’m still going to tell the smokers their habit has a 50% chance of killing them.

          • Mishimoo

            And for males, a fair chance of contributing to erectile dysfunction. According to one of our GPs, in his experience, telling that to young male smokers has a better success rate for quitting than the cancer warning.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      That’s bullshit. When a patient wants something that is against my advice, if it’s not too dangerous, I’ll go with it but express my reservations. If a patients wants to do something that is so dangerous that I feel a life is in danger, and they won’t listen to reason, I won’t attend them. Period.

      This is not Burger King. Our motto is not, “Have it Your Way.”

      • Hush

        VBA2C, according to ACOG, is a viable thing.. You can refuse to attend the woman, but not when she’s due any day now (you have to provide 30 days written notice) and you should make it clear from day 1 that you don’t do VBA2C and try to help her find her a provider who will do VBA2C so that she is safely monitored for her choice. If it’s not possible then when she doesn’t have a doctor and shows up pushing with a dead baby.. then the doctors who refused to monitor a high risk pregnancy are partly to blame.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          For this woman, it was clearly not viable. She has a history of terrible labors that don’t work. Any doctor agreeing to oversee and try would be guilty of horrific medical malpractice.

          • Hush

            She also had a history of a successful vaginal birth. She never had a ruptured uterus before. If she thought she was a candidate for vaginal birth even if she wasn’t then someone should have been caring for her so they could have done a timely cesarean instead of literally telling her to stay home to labor they’d do it anyway. Frankly, I hope she sues them for telling her to stay home. It sounds like that is what they told her to do! Instead of helping her find a doctor who WOULD actually care for her!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            She had no history of successful vaginal birth after C-section. She clearly had a uterus that wasn’t capable of carrying babies to term. She had a full praevia in the past!

            And no, any doctor caring for her with that insane plan would be guilty of medical malpractice. No one is required to take a patient who won’t listen to medical advice and wants to do something suicidally dangerous. Seriously. If a friend asks for my gun to shoot hirself, I am not obligated to help hir find another gun after I refuse. And I bear no responsibility if, after trying to get my friend into therapy and locking up my weapons, ze still gets hir hands on a knife and kills hirself. I did what I could. This woman’s doctors did the equivalent- they did what they could to explain the situation and get her into appropriate medical treatment. She chose the suicide knife instead of the life-giving scalpel. With her arrogance and stupidity, she tried to kill both of them, and was lucky she only managed to kill her baby but not herself.

          • Hush

            It doesn’t say whether it was just policy or not. I don’t give the benefit of the doubt, ever.

          • C T

            Except to mothers with nursing backgrounds who choose to risk disaster for the sake of a vaginal birth….

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            It doesn’t matter if it was policy or not. She was a terrible risk and they were right not to accept her if she wanted to VBAC, whether or not they allowed some VBACs.

            And if it was policy, it was because they didn’t have the personnel or facilities to handle VBACs, which is still the right call. Would you rather they did accept VBAC patients who then died because there wasn’t an anesthesiologist and OR team on call 24/7? I wouldn’t.

            Face it. There is no way this woman didn’t make the wrong choice, a choice with predictable and catastrophic outcomes. She bears the blame for her choice and the death of her son. You and the rest of the NCB movement also bear the blame, for demonizing hospitals and doctors and making her think that she just had to have an “experience” over a live baby. For someone who doesn’t give the benefit of the doubt, you’re giving the mom an awful lot of it …

          • Hush

            I disagree. If it was a policy not to do VBA2C but VBAC is okay, then that is wrong.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Completely irrelevant and off-topic. This woman was a horrible risk and made a horrible choice, and she is paying for it. You and the entire NCB movement bear some of the blame for this baby’s death, for cheering her on in her heedless sprint toward disaster.

            Do you think a hospital should accept patients for whom it cannot care? Yes or no.

          • Dr Kitty

            Except to the woman in the post, apparently.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            Yeah one VB, and a real shitty OB history. Obviously u are mental and have no idea wtf you are talking about, you can’t defend this woman’s actions, period.

          • Hush

            I can, I am.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Only the mother is to blame in this situation. She was not a candidate for VBAC of any kind.

          • Hush

            You say that like you were her doctor.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Again, bullshit. She was told from day 1 that she was not a candidate for a VBAC. No one sprung this on her at the last minute. And her doctors are completely right in having refused to participate in this woman’s care- she was hell-bent on doing it her way. If she had labored in the hospital and ruptured there with a bad outcome, you can bet she’d be suing the pants off of everyone.

    • Are you nuts

      The woman has agency, and so does her doctor. If I’m her doctor, NO WAY am I going to oversee a VBAC on a woman with her history. My conscience wouldn’t allow it and, frankly, I’m not willing to face a lawsuit for something I know is a bad idea. The risks were clear, the doctor spelled them out, and the mom ignored them.

      • Hush

        Then don’t oversee it. But don’t abdicate yourself of partial responsibility because you are more concerned collectively about money and career than you are about women and babies. Say it like it is. You all can’t stand up to it because you like being able to call the shots or say fine then you won’t have a doctor…

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Oh, fuck off. Seriously. Unless you’ve ever held anyone else’s life in your hands, just fuck off.

          • Hush

            I can see that this made you emotional. Sorry about that!

          • Zornorph

            Hush, hush. Keep it down, now. Voices carry.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            LMAO

          • Siri

            Have a cuppa tea and a nice sit down, dear.

          • Anj Fabian

            Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.

          • Siri

            You can call me Mr Stewart. Actually, you can call me Sir Mr Stewart…

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            No, it just made me pissed off.

          • Hush

            Well, sorry about that! I’m not trying to make people mad. Just, don’t believe the innocent explanation.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            What a load of b.s. You are making a stupid, inflammatory argument over a clear case of a woman (who is a NURSE) ignoring legit medical advice, because waaah, c sections. Then you play this “oh, did I make you mad? Oopsiedaisy! Disgusting, and not going to fly on this discussion board.

          • Hush

            Well, I genuinely believe that our medical system has been hijacked by lawyers.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You’re genuinely wrong. Lawyers are a petty nuisance, at worst. Insurance companies now…but that’s a different story. Know why OBs don’t get sued for doing c-sections? Because they result in live babies. Nothing to sue for. Would you rather they just shrugged off the occasional dead baby instead of doing one or two c-sections that might, in hindsight, have been unnecessary?

          • Hush

            So there have only be one or two unnecessary cesareans done in the name of policy over people? What am I on about then!?!?! I must be cray cray, why are you bothering to speak to me.. again?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Why are you perseverating on the idea that it’s “policy over people” (whatever that means besides being a nice sounding rhetorical phrase)? The policy is in place because it saves lives. People’s lives. How is that “policy over people”? Know what’s policy over people? Limiting access to life saving measures for political reasons. For example, limiting access to c-sections because someone at the WHO pulled 15% out of his ass and everyone was forced to use it as a goal. Refusing to do VBACs because you don’t have the resources to support them safely even though you know that there is political pressure to provide them? That’s people over policy.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            And I genuinely believe it’s being hijacked by ignorant fools like you who value vaginal birth without pain relief over the LIFE of the baby. I also genuinely believe you are a very unpleasant, willfully ignorant jackass who is pushing a flawed, antifeminist, antiscience, anti rational pile of bullshit.

          • MLE

            No, the only thing you need to be sorry about is your cold calculation and lack of emotion regarding this loss. The doctors here have seen more pain and suffering in their careers than you will ever see in a lifetime, so if they are a little upset by a gnat like you, they will handle it and move on. Unfortunately this mother never will.

        • attitude devant

          Eff that noise. You have no idea what it’s like to be responsible for life and death, do you? Until you are the one holding the bag, you have no right to tell us that WE are being selfish.

          • Hush

            I can see this made you emotional. Sorry about that!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            No you’re not sorry at all. You’re trying to push buttons. You are accusing doctors, who care a WHOLE LOT about patient autonomy and professional standards and saving lives, that they are being selfish and mean by refusing to allow a woman to do something really, really, really stupid that is likely to get her killed while in their care.

            Let me repeat that. You’re accusing the doctors who tried to save this woman’s life of being mean and selfish because they didn’t want her to risk that life in the first place, and refused to oversee her attempts to do so. Not trying to make people mad? You couldn’t be trying any harder.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Thanks. Wish I could like this 1000x.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            People like her make me so mad. I see it a lot on the atheist blogs I frequent too- people will say “oh atheists can’t have morals” and then wonder why people got upset. Maybe because you* just implied that all atheists are horrible people?

            It’s like, of course people are going to get upset if you insult them and call them bad people! You don’t get to claim you didn’t mean it.

            *All yous are generic and not actually applicable to you personally.

          • Hush

            I am sorry that people are taking it personally. My accusation stands, though. I am indeed accusing doctors of burnout and of going with policies that put women and babies at risk. That is the heart of VBAC and VBA2C bans… policy over people.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            No, the heart of VBAC bans is that there are hospitals that do not have the resources to handle an emergency, i.e. a rupture, if it occurs during a VBAC and in response to the known risk have decided to not offer VBACs because they can’t do it safely. Would you rather hospitals offer VBAC if they aren’t ready to do a c-section emergently if something goes wrong?

          • Hush

            Okay so what happens when a cord prolapses, when a uterus goes tetanic, when a baby flat-lines .. at these hospitals that cannot handle a rupture..

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Oh, I don’t know….maybe call for immediate assistance, provide intrauterine resuscitation and deliver by the quickest available route? Monitor the fetus so that it is evident that it is in distress before it “flat-lines” and necessary personnel can be called in without panic?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            No, it isn’t. VBAC bans happen at hospitals that can’t handle VBACs- it would be putting policy over people indeed if a hospital took on patients it couldn’t treat. Instead, the hospital takes a good hard look at its limits and refuses patients it can’t treat. Women who want VBACs can either travel to hospitals that can handle the complications or follow their doctors’ advice for an RCS.

            Your accusation, that doctors don’t care about lives or patients, is both extraordinarily insulting and extraordinarily wrong. Withdraw it.

          • Hush

            So all of the hospitals with VBAC bans are incapable of caring for VBACs safely and it’s not policy over people in many cases??? You must live in a different country..

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I live in the US. I may live in a different country from you, but in the US, yes that is absolutely the case. Many hospitals cannot care for VBAC complications, so they don’t do VBACs, and that is putting people over policy every time.

          • Hush

            I have had friends be at the hands of physicians who did indeed care more about hospital policy than about female agency. As a result, I will not withdraw that statement. I will say that I can be hasty to paint the profession in a dark light and of course some doctors care more about women than about any of that. It’s just hard not to become biased when I see a lot of cases of doctors walking all over the rights of women in labor.. including me. I am biased, indeed.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            And I will readily admit that doctors are people, and some of them are assholes. Women in general are walked all over in terms of agency and autonomy, so it’s not shocking that it carries over into labor sometimes.

            However, this is part of a much, much wider systemic problem than the medical establishment, and doctors are, in general, better about it than society at large (especially younger doctors). And in the case of feelings or saving lives, doctors will (rightly) pick saving lives and leave you to handle their bedside manner or complain about it as you choose. They are going to insist on monitoring, because it’s medically necessary. They will strongly recommend a heplock, because if something does go wrong it makes things faster and smoother if it’s already in. They won’t let you give birth in water because that’s just unsafe. They will not stand by and let you kill yourself and your baby- they will plead, beg, yell, cajole, do whatever they can to get you into surgery to save both lives.

            And let me tell you, the homebirth midwives I’ve read about care about autonomy and agency not one bit. I’d rather have a doctor any day than a midwife who might block me into my house so I can’t get to a hospital because she wants to direct my labor instead of me. Yes, this happened to another poster here. The number of posts about midwives, and commenters who have tried to homebirth or even succeeded at it, talking about the gross intrusions of CPMs and DEMS and their complete inability to respect patient autonomy is truly astounding.

            The plural of anecdote is not data. You would be wise to remember this. The data says that hospital birth is straight-up safer, doctors aren’t assholes, and CPMs are terrible at their jobs.

          • Hush

            Ends do not justify means. If doctors can go against consent to save babies that are not actually currently in danger of dying… that is not okay with me or with the courts… but women can’t take it to the courts unless they are of means. I’m not talking about heplocks and monitors. I’m speaking of truly going against women consent in sometimes violent ways. I have seen it and experienced it. There is a darkness around the care of pregnant women that some of you have obviously never experienced. I did not suggest that CPMs were good care providers. Anywhere.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            How much in danger of dying counts?

            If you’re saying that laboring mothers get treated badly in hospitals sometimes, you’re right. If you’re saying that there is therefore a valid reason to avoid a hospital with a high-risk pregnancy/delivery, you’re dead wrong.

            Your premise is valid, but your logic is faulty and therefore your conclusion is invalid. And your arguments that this woman made a valid choice to try a TOLAC at home with a CPM are here for all to see. Your options in the US are: hospital, risk-assessed CNM birthing center or homebirth, CPM/DEM homebirth, or unassisted. The first two were rejected (or rather, the mother was not a good candidate to be accepted by the second), and you are defending the mother’s choice to go with Option 3 which is never, ever a smart or safe option.

          • aussie

            “the plural of anecdote is not data”- Feminerd I don’t know if you came up with this yourself or if is just the first time I’ve heard it, but it is awesome.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Oh it’s been around for awhile, I definitely didn’t coin the phrase! It flies around the social sciences a lot.

            Another useful term is “anecdata”, which is where people think a bunch of anecdotes counts as data when it really doesn’t.

          • moto_librarian

            Do you have a job, Hush? If so, do you have a code of professional standards that you are expected to adhere to? I know that in my profession, there are certain things that are considered core values and there is an expectation that I will adhere to them. That’s how the real world works, and doctors and CNMs are obligated adhere to the standard of care. If they are at a facility that does not conform to ACOG’s recommendations for VBACs, it is unethical for them to offer them, period. I’m sure it’s much easier to accuse them of “burnout” and claim that they are happy to go along “with policies that put women and babies at risk” but you aren’t the one whose ass is on the line if something does go wrong. Unlike hack lay midwives, real healthcare providers have to pay for malpractice insurance and concern themselves with sticking to their appropriate scope of care. Doctors are people too, and I’m damned sure that dead babies weigh on their minds more than those of the average midwife in this country.

          • Hush

            ACOG threw out ACOGs standards and now supports VBA2C, too. And it has a long-standing history of supporting female agency and autonomy.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You seem confused about autonomy and agency. You seem to think that autonomy confers an obligation on others to facilitate the exercise of autonomy. Just because you want a VBAC does not obligate a hospital or anyone else to provide it for you.

          • Hush

            So they can A. do a cesarean against her will or B. kick her out?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Sometimes. When appropriate. When it doesn’t seem too risky. In a hospital.

            This woman? Very risky. A horrible obstetric history. No doctor in the history of medicine would call her a good candidate for a VBA2C. But you know, in a generally healthy woman with a good obstetric history at a hospital means all the time for all women everywhere, amiright?

          • SF Mom & Psychologist

            I’m going to geek out here for a minute and share an observation about Hush’s perspective (vs. that of most of the rest of us).

            I’m a licensed clinical psychologist, and we do have clear ethical standards that we are expected to adhere to. Of course, there are plenty of “gray” areas in clinical practice. In those cases, we are expected to make a decision that is grounded in an established ethical framework. There are several that are most typically used in my field.

            I’d say that “Hush” is approaching this decision from a feminist ethical perspective – that the client’s (the term in my field) needs and wishes are THE priority in the decision. Preserving the relationship and respecting the wishes/needs of the individual is the fundamental goal.

            The rest of us are looking at this from a deontological ethical perspective. That there is a rule or standard (in this case, safety data and practice standards), and following those rules is what guides the decision. There is a moral “right” (and “wrong”). I think most medical professionals see a healthy baby and mother as the clear “right” and a dead/injured baby and mother as the “wrong.” Pursuing the morally “right” thing is the fundamental goal.

            In some fields, and perhaps even in certain medical situations, a feminist perspective (prioritizing the relationship) makes sense and is appropriate. But my bias is that it is COMPLETELY insane to expect doctors to hold that perspective in life-and-death emergencies. And it’s bullsh*t to vilify them for having a different ethical-decision-making process and following it very clearly and consistently.

          • lilin

            Actually, they’re going with policies that reduce risk. In this case, they would be putting mothers at risk if they allowed more risky procedures.

            I’m sorry that some mothers burn out and are reduced to a state of, what should we call it, murderous selfishness? I guess that works. Again, car seats are probably the best analogy. “I just got so tired of strapping my kids into a car seat, so for my fourth kid I stopped using them. But it’s not my fault that he was killed! It’s the establishment! For not supporting me in my decision to do something dangerous!”

          • attitude devant

            Nope. Not emotional. Sorry about that, since that seems to have been your goal. Not emotional at all, but not open to bullying from ICAN drones either.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          You are just being ridiculous now. It is not just about money. I will not cut off your leg for you because you think something is wrong when it is not. That is my right and if you feel your agency was thwarted too bad

          • Are you nuts

            Good analogy. Even if I threaten to cut my leg off myself because you won’t do it, that doesn’t mean you should perform the operation. Perhaps the doc should have referred this mom to a mental health professional, but other than that I don’t know what he/she was supposed to do.

          • lilin

            Thank you! Finally someone puts their finger on it!

            I had to inject these herbs I got off the internet at home because the doctors said it wasn’t safe and wouldn’t inject me in a hospital! Now I’m dying and it’s their fault!

            I had to treat my kids fever at home, because doctors said that bleeding a patient to bring down a fever was an antiquated practice and they wouldn’t do it in a hospital! I killed my kid and its their fault, because they wouldn’t do it safely!

            I had to treat my cancer with fruit juice under my own guidance because the doctors wouldn’t do it in a hospital! It wouldn’t have spread if they’d just shut up and let me have *agency* by doing what I wanted to do despite it not being realistic!

            When, oh when, will the medical establishment learn that good science is doing whatever the patient wants you to do no matter how dangerous and unproven it is?

          • Hush

            But a VBAC is not a procedure. It is the absence of one.

          • Are you nuts

            It’s still supervising a medical condition. If I were an oncologist and recommended chemo, and my patient refused chemo in favor of herbs and a healthy diet, I would tell that patient I can’t be their doctor anymore.

          • Hush

            And you’d have to care for them for 30 days if they needed care. You can’t just be like CIAOBYE

          • Hush

            You also can’t be like .. Well I’m going to knock you out and do Chemo anyway. Cause you be craycray.

          • Young CC Prof

            No one performed a c-section on her against her will. They may have pushed for it, but urging someone to have surgery by telling her the truth is not removing her autonomy.

          • Hush

            Are you saying this doesn’t happen and that her fear was unfounded?

          • Young CC Prof

            I am not aware of any case in the USA in recent years in which an adult who was able to communicate clearly and demonstrate orientation to person place and time got surgery after saying NO.

          • Hush

            Then you aren’t digging deeply enough into the topic. Google it.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            That is not how this works. You make claims, you provide the evidence for them. That is how making claims works.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            She should have feared the death of her son instead of a 4 inch incision. Wtf was the big deal if she already had 2 previous c-sections in the grand scheme of things? It would not have made any difference because she ended up with a c-section anyways and a DEAD baby, instead of being logical and scheduling a c-section at 39 weeks and giving birth to a LIVE baby! It is common sense, nothing more

          • Hush

            It was a big deal to her. She wanted a VBA2C.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Clearly. She considered it worth putting her baby’s life at risk and her own life at risk. She could easily have died doing that trick, leaving her 3 children without a mother and her partner alone to raise 3 small children. What is it about a vaginal birth that is worth that risk?

          • Hush

            It is about autonomy. Personal autonomy. She knew the statistics. They should have simply supported it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Which “they” should have supported it? “They” didn’t violate her autonomy to stop her: she wasn’t arrested, she wasn’t subject to unwanted surgery, she wasn’t forced to go to the hospital. “They” simply advised her that she was acting like a fool and strongly urged her to act sensibly. She’s also allowed to sky dive with an untested homemade parachute, but “they” (i.e. pilots for reputable sky diving companies) are not obliged to take her up in their planes if they don’t think she can complete the dive safely. You seem to think that the hospital personnel should have no autonomy. Sorry. It doesn’t work like that.

          • C T

            My daughter wants a pony. Doesn’t mean she’s getting one. Reality intervenes and says “no” to our dreams sometimes. In the meantime, we adults have a moral duty not to be taking huge risks with the life of a viable baby who just hasn’t made it outside his mother’s body yet.

          • Trixie

            And I want a pony!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I want a fairy princess fairy godmother!

            The pony might be a tad more realistic, but I consider the fairy princess fairy godmother to be about as likely as this woman’s chances for a good outcome on a VBA2C.

          • Hush

            That isn’t true. Her chances were not magical, they were real for it and fell in favor of her choice of it working out fine. It was just “too risky” for legal which meant she was afraid to come to the hospital where things would’ve had a chance of working out much better. Instead it’s policies over people..

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            You keep repeating “policies over people” like it’s a meaningful phrase, in spite of having been shut down repeatedly.

            No doctor, anywhere, would take her as a VBAC risk. She wasn’t a good risk, and it would have been unethical to try.

            Hospitals have VBAC policies because they don’t want to encourage VBACs and then have women and babies die because the hospital lacks the facilities and personnel to keep them alive. That is 100% people over policies, there- if you can’t treat people, don’t accept them. Send them to somewhere that can, or treat them how you can. And we don’t even know if her local hospital had a VBAC policy in general, or if she was just refused because, again, bad risk.

            You have yet to refute the fact that this woman had as much chance of a good outcome in her VBA2C as I have to have a fairy princess fairy godmother. If something is only available in fantasyland, I don’t generally try for it in reality. She made a stupid decision, and you and yours (NCB people) helped her and cheered her along the way to killing her baby. You share some of the culpability for her son’s death. Your distrust of hospitals kills babies. Own it.

          • Hush

            Now, instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs.. On the habit of hospitals to make choices that are not necessarily in the interest of patient safety.. and the doctors who go along with it… but instead are in the interest of defensive medicine (VBAC bans and VBA2C bans).. you are blaming me! Because I… believe women are smart, capable of assessing risk, and capable of agency?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            If all women were capable of properly assessing risk, we wouldn’t be having the conversation and there wouldn’t be another dead baby.

          • Hush

            I’m not saying I disagree with this statement but I do disagree with the notion that she couldn’t decide against an ERCS without having to wage a war once she got there. It’s wrong.

          • anne

            Most of us are incapable of assessing risk accurately, especially outside of our fields of specialty. There are literally reams of articles on how humans assess risk given the situation and most of the time we do it incredibly poorly. One example would be people who fear losing money in the stock market more than they fear inflation.

            The hospital and doctors have agency too. You can choose to have a VBAC and they can choose not support the decision. They are real human beings with bound by ethics – not robots that serve up the type of experience we want to have.

          • Hush

            Choose not to support the decision but they have to support the woman through her labor. It’s against the law to A. do a cesarean against consent B. refuse to care for a woman in labor

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Exercising your autonomy makes you responsible for your actions. This baby died because his mother chose to exercise her autonomy as a narcissist. Therefore she is entirely responsible for the baby’s death. She martyred him for her own ends. Even she knows that.

          • Hush

            Okay, exercising autonomy is what she did. No one dragged her to the hospital for an ERCS at 38 or 39 weeks or whatever in cuffs. Correct. Thing is, they also did not make it clear that if she went to the hospital she would be respected and many times women are not respected for making choices against medical advice. Also, there have been cases I’ve read of retaliation. This disrespect and retaliation is what she was afraid of. She was also afraid she would get there and they would get her husband to consent against her will to a cesarean without an emergency situation being present. That to me is just.. it speaks of a system that needs help.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But she doesn’t say anything like that. She explicitly acknowledges that she was warned that an attempt at vaginal birth could kill her baby. She explicitly acknowledged that a live baby was not her highest priority. She chose to ignore medical advice; she killed her baby. It is just that simple.

            How about you, Hush? Have you let one of your children die while exercising your autonomy?

          • Hush

            I read it like she did in fact say it like that.

            I have not.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Can you point to where she said it? I don’t see it.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Exercising autonomy means that the mother was responsible, not the hospital, no matter how much you’d like to pretend otherwise. She ignored medical advice; she’s completely responsible for the devastating result.

          • Hush

            Don’t simplify a complex medical decision like that. It is different.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            How? This woman wanted a vaginal birth experience, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead!

            It’s exactly like that. She wanted a VBA2C (pony), regardless of real world consequences or contraindications. Adults deal with the fact that they can’t get what they want all the time for various practical reasons.

          • Siri

            Trixie plays with My Little Pony toys. In secret.

          • Trixie

            It’s not different at all. I want a pony even though the objective facts are that my owning a pony would be a terrible idea for all involved.

          • baileylamb

            Why?

          • Hush

            Maybe she felt it was a safe decision. Maybe she wanted 8 kids and after 3 cesareans would feel she was too risky a case to have that many kids. Maybe she felt like she was a good candidate for a VBAC even after they told her no, because she knew they had a VBA2C ban.. Maybe she had the opinion of a CNM who thought she was a good candidate. Maybe she looked at the stats and thought “Well, I think those are acceptable risks” but didn’t realize those stats apply to situations being monitored in the hospital.

          • baileylamb

            That’s a whole lotta maybe’s. Just sayin… Unless having a large family is a religious thing, I’m not really seeing the point. Also, I’m sure people who want large families want 8 living children.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No, she knew it wasn’t safe. She did it because having a specific experiencing was more important than ensuring her baby’s survival.

          • Rabbit

            Apparently she wanted that more than she wanted a live, healthy baby.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            What? Someone who had a c-section when they didn’t agree to it?

            How often does that happen? You tell me, it’s your implication.

          • Hush

            She said she was afraid that they would get her husband to consent.

          • BeatlesFan

            Yes, heaven forbid the father of the baby get a say in whether or not it lives.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Well, don’t like that one how about this one. If have gangrene in your leg and I tell you it is going to kill you unless you cut it off and you won’t I would tell you to find another doctor

        • ngozi

          These doctors had a real reason to be concerned and play the “dead baby card.” These were not doctors who wanted a patient to deliver via C-section to go golfing.

        • Busbus

          I’m sorry, but not everything in life goes the way you want. And yes, it sucks. Tell that to anyone who has a serious illness – it’s unfair, and it sucks. But what can you do? It is what it is, and denial will not make it go away. It’s the same way with birth complications. This mother was not a candidate for a safe VBAC attempt, per every medical opnion. She simply wasn’t. It may suck, but that’s life. The doctors are neither able nor required to create a fantasy world for her where that isn’t the case.

        • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

          I am betting that Hush is this woman, going out of her way to defend a dumb-ass decision.

        • lilin

          Again, always remember! Doctors are not human. Their agency and their emotions and especially their education don’t matter.

          They exist merely to mechanically dispense whatever service the actual human requests, no matter how ignorant or unrealistic that human is.

        • BeatlesFan

          HOW does the doctor have ANY responsibility here, partial or otherwise? The doctors (three of them) say that based on this woman’s history, they aren’t willing to risk their consciences or licenses, or this woman’s life or her baby’s life, and explain why. They explain the risks and the worst case scenario. She ignores them, does what she wants because she thinks she knows better, and the worst case scenario happens.

          You keep bitching about teh ebil doctors not respecting women’s choices or letting them make their own decisions and blah blah blah. This woman DID make her own decision and yet you blame the doctors for the outcome? If they’d “played the dead baby card” well enough that she’d listened, you’d be on here whining about her “unnecessarian” instead. and how money-hungry and cut-happy they doctors are. Make up your mind, please.

          Also, believe it or not, not all doctors are in it for the money. OBs likely care quite a lot about mothers and babies- if they didn’t, they’d be cardiologists or urologists and have a more normal schedule and probably more money.

    • C T

      When my sister gave birth at a CNM-run birth clinic right next to a hospital (where she was required by the CNMs to be pre-registered), an employee of the clinic told me that women who live up in the mountains come to Denver and stay in hotels until they go into labor just so they can give birth at the birth center.
      When I lived in Ecuador, I met a woman who traveled all the way to Florida to give birth with midwives. She had gone to college in the USA and was influenced by US NCB thought. This wasn’t a woman who was just having a baby in the US for the US citizenship.
      Reading Ina May’s books makes it clear that many women go far out of their way to have the Farm birthing experience.
      This willingness to travel for a good birth experience should be normal and expected of mothers who want a safe birth experience as well. A woman who wants a safe VBAC should utilize any available options to travel to hospitals outside her immediate vicinity. (If she personally can’t find any hospital at all willing to do a VBAC with her, then she is quite possibly mentally unbalanced for insisting on it.) Inconvenient, yes, but not impossible for many. It’s certainly worth doing where there’s an approximately 1/200 chance of rupturing during a VBAC. There is no glory–only shame–in risking a helpless infant’s health for an HBAC.

      • Hush

        Oh please. The shame is in VBAC bans.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Why do you keep missing the point? This woman was not the victim of a VBAC ban. She was not a candidate for a VBAC.

          • Hush

            You’re the one missing the point.

          • ngozi

            So you think the whole problem in this story was a VBAC ban? Really?

          • Hush

            I think it was exactly like a VBAC ban. The doctors think they “know better” and are forcing their opinion by refusing to care for anyone attempting a VBAC and for literally going against agency in many cases by gaining coerced consent or going against consent. In this situation there was a bit more risk than an ordinary VBAC but it’s not up to doctors whether women are “VBAC candidates” or not if a woman is refusing a cesarean. They can transfer her care, or tell her they have to drop her from the practice but will care for her for 30 days… and of course if she goes to the hospital they will respectfully care for her if they are on duty. But that’s not how it goes down. It is so much more sinister. There are always threats and veiled threats.

          • C T

            “A bit more risk”? If I knew driving my car today entailed that kind of increased risk, I’d be staying home. You’re whitewashing.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            You’re an idiot. Seriously, I don’t know how you can read this story and come up with this conclusion. And the doctors did “know better.”

          • Karen in SC

            It is really a threat if it comes to pass? I think the better word is “prediction.”

          • Hush

            They say this too much. If they used it sparingly and only in appropriate situations it would be trusted!

          • Hush

            They did in this case. But, like I said in my OP, they cry wolf. Tell women all the time their babies will die..

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Because babies do die. And only hindsight is perfect in predicting which ones will and which ones wont. Why can’t you understand that? So every time a woman has a VBAC and the baby doesn’t die the doctor was crying wolf?

          • Hush

            Garnering consent by saying that babies will die babies will die babies will die.. then the woman has the precip VBAC or HBAC or she waits to come in til the last minute and the baby doesn’t die.. the baby doesn’t die.. the baby doesn’t die… This woman sees all those situations… Then it feels a lot like crying wolf. Then a truly scary situation pops up. The doctor tries to impress upon the woman the seriousness of her situation.. but she heard it before, she heard it before, she heard it before!

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            That’s not crying wolf, you dolt. It’s called informing a patient of the risks.

          • Hush

            It is crying wolf when it’s an exaggeration or an outright lie. Is it true that a VBAC has a 50% risk of rupture, doctor? Can a woman who has a fine pelvis but a previous cesarean really only birth a <7 lb baby or the baby WILL get stuck and die? Then they tell the next woman that her uterus is too high risk and her history is incompatible with a VBA2C. And is she just supposed to believe that.. ? When is it the truth, when is it a lie??

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Depends on the patient.

          • Hush

            This was not told “depending on the patient”, and these things never came to fruition, because these women had HBACs.. driven out of the hospital by providers keen on getting consent any way they can.

          • anne

            This baby died.

          • Hush

            Yes. Just like the sheep got eaten. The boy who cried wolf was as much to blame as the wolf.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Oh. My. God.

          • C T

            Huge difference that destroys your logic: the boy KNEW he was lying. Doctors, on the other hand, are not sure how the birth will turn out ahead of time. They are going off of risk factors and studies to give the best predictions they can to help a mother choose the safest alternative.

          • ngozi

            They are informing patients of the risks, as they should.

          • Hush

            They are not always doing that. That is assuming total innocence on their part. I would not make that assumption. I have witnessed women say that their doctor told them they had a 50% risk of rupture, that their baby WOULD (not might) get stuck in the birth canal and die if they were over 7 lbs, etc. Woman finds a different doctor or plans an HBAC and none of that comes to pass… Then there unsafe things that go on too.. I’m not saying there aren’t.

          • C T

            Au contraire. I do not assume innocence. I do however assume a modicum of rational thought. Doctors don’t want babies to die. Or mothers. Even if the doctor is a heartless, egotistical, lying jerk, he doesn’t want to damage his career or his bottom line. So he’ll choose the safer path. Might an OB’s dire statistically-based predictions sound like threats? Quite possibly. But they’re based on truth and actual science, not a belief in the vaginal birth fairy.

          • Hush

            By threats I was actually referring to forced surgery. And, I don’t frankly care IF a mother is risking her and her babies life in a decision. If it is more likely things will be fine than not, then it is seeming to me like it is up to the woman. If it is up to the woman, then she should be monitored through her decision not forced to labor at home under the threat of a forced surgical procedure. I don’t really think for a second that they knew this would happen or even thought that it actually would.

          • Hush

            If they genuinely believed that the baby would die and she’d have a uterine rupture would they have suggested to her that she labor at home if she didn’t want a cesarean?

          • C T

            Yes. She didn’t want a C-section, and they told her how to avoid one. After all, she might have been lucky. It’s clear that she had already received lots of medical advice re the danger of a TOLAC.

          • Young CC Prof

            Kind of like, “Wolf! Wolf! No, sorry, it was just a big fast beaver!”

            There’s a difference between actually lying about danger and warning someone about a possible danger that doesn’t happen, this time.

          • Hush

            If I am an idiot did you not explain it to yourself? lol

          • ngozi

            But they weren’t refusing to care for anyone attempting a VBAC. They refused to do VBAC for someone whose risk was high as the clouds.
            I mean, why even go to a doctor if you are not going to follow anything they say? And I am not saying that doctors, nurses, and hospitals are perfect. I am not saying some of them are not assholes. But if you have to buck everything your doctor tells you, then you should find a new doctor.

          • BeatlesFan

            Doctors usually do know better, because 10-15 years of education and study combined with years of experience and training typically results in people more knowledgeable than folks who spend the day “doing research” on Google.

            It IS up to doctors whether a woman is a VBAC candidate. A doctor is not required to care for a patient who is knowingly and willingly going against their advice, because when shit hits the fan, that patient can turn around and sue the hell out of the doctor she didn’t listen to. I’ve heard of family practitioners dropping patients who refuse to vaccinate- this is no different.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Because she needs to lie to herself obviously

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The guidelines for what is considered acceptable risk in VBAC is determined by our society – particular, our civil law system.

            They are the ones that determine that the hospital was at fault when they allowed an at-risk woman to do a TOL, and they are the ones that have set acceptable limits on what the hospital/doctors need to do. If they hospital/doctors accept unreasonable risk, they are the ones liable for the outcome.

            So says US. The people of the US.

        • C T

          The bans exist where the hospitals cannot properly render service should a rupture occur. What do you expect those hospitals to do? They can’t offer services that they know they are unable to safely provide.

          • Hush

            They can’t render service at all for pregnant women at all.

          • C T

            That makes no sense, Hush. VBACs have specific additional requirements of personnel that not all hospitals can meet.

          • Hush

            So do first time moms and inductions.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Wrong.

          • Hush

            I have a feeling nothing I say will be “right” to you anyway.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Or to anyone else here.

          • Hush

            Oh, I belong to a circle of people that actually do agree with me.

          • C T

            Oh, you have an echo chamber? How cute. (And I say that as someone who gets in arguments rather regularly with commenters here….)

          • Hush

            I actually think that they sometimes do – do that. It is unsettling when it happens.

          • Trixie

            If you know a bunch of people who are wrong the same way you are wrong, that doesn’t make any of you right.

          • Siri

            Hush, it would be helpful to know if you have experience of working in this field, as a nurse, midwife or obstetrician. Or are you approaching this from the point of view of a layperson? Remember there are many very highly qualified people on this thread…

          • ngozi

            WHAT?!?!?

          • Hush

            Okay, so if they are not appropriate for a VBAC, why are they appropriate for an induction or a first time mom?? Similar risk category.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Wrong again.

          • moto_librarian

            Smaller hospitals are there to provide basic services, with the implicit knowledge that they will transfer patients once they require a higher level of care. I know that the military base near here refers higher risk pregnancies to my university’s medical center, and if they have to deliver a preemie, they lifeflight the baby here. By your level of reasoning, I should be able to demand that a rural hospital perform neurosurgery on me, because if they can’t, they can’t handle emergency head traumas effectively. That argument is patently stupid, as is your complaint about VBAC bans.

          • Hush

            VBAC isn’t a procedure, and these doctors weren’t referring out care.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            “Watch and wait” is absolutely a medical procedure, because it comes with the understanding that if it doesn’t work out, other treatment will happen. VBAC is a watch and wait medical scenario.

            If a hospital is incapable of providing that other treatment (ie, they have no team available 24/7), they don’t do watch and wait. And they will only ‘watch and wait’ in cases where it seems medically indicated- they will aggressively treat things where watching and waiting is likely to lead to death.

          • Hush

            Okay, so if they don’t have the personnel to watch and wait a VBAC.. how do they have the personnel to watch and wait with an induction?

          • moto_librarian

            Oh, you’re one of those that thinks that pitocin causes uterine ruptures.

          • C T

            While oxytocin is magical. (And yet the same molecule….)

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Inductions are far, far less risky. They have indications long before the vast majority of adverse events, giving enough time to call in a team. They really don’t increase the risk of uterine ruptures. And they are planned, so the hospital can set it up ahead of time to have an OR team available ‘just in case’.

            But, you know, facts and all. You’ve already shown you don’t give a shit about those.

          • Hush

            They set up OR’s ahead of time for most inductions? Inductions are extremely common. Can you verify that?

          • Siri

            Inductions, being elective, can be scheduled during the day, when the hospital is fully staffed. VBACs raise the risk of sudden emergencies out of hours.

          • Hush

            Oh, so you mean all those inductions that my friends sign up for at VBAC ban hospitals that happen AT NIGHT.. are hospitals asking for disaster?

          • Siri

            I don’t know about your friends, but I’m used to inductions being done during the daytime unless a hospital has round-the-clock dedicated anaesthetists. And again, most inductions are slow to get going and there is plenty of time to call in extra staff if problems begin to emerge. The most common scenario is that an induction turns into a c/s for ‘failure to progress’ somewhere down the line; obviously much less urgent than a ruptured uterus.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If VBAC isn’t a medical procedure, why are you insisting that it be done in a hospital?

            That doesn’t make sense.

          • Hush

            It’s not a procedure, but it is a medical event. It isn’t something to do but it is something to watch and monitor.

          • moto_librarian

            And when you see the signs of a rupture, what then? You’re expecting an OR to be open and anesthesia available immediately. In a small hospital, it probably won’t happen fast enough.

          • Hush

            Okay and then in situations where there is a cord prolapse during amniotomy or a tetanic uterus during a prostaglandin induction or a baby flat-lines after mom starts pushing… All those babies are gonna die at a smaller hospital?? Should they have a pregnancy ward if all of those babies will die?

          • Karma Kidney Stone

            No, those babies will not all die. My husband was a Pediatrician at a very rural hospital that did births. They did not have anesthesia in house 24/7 or Peds 24/7. We were required to live no more than 20 mins from the hospital. My husband became certified to teach STABLE, it’s a course that teaches medical professionals how to keep a patient stable for transfer to other medical facilities that can handle them. If they foresaw an emergency, they would transfer (by ambulance or life flight) but sometimes things would go bad quickly and transfer was not an option. In that case, their training and expertise could keep the patient stable until they were transferred to a facility that can do the things the patient needs. Even the most basic rural hospital has IV’s, masks, meds, and more importantly, many professionals with actual education, training, experience, and dedication.

          • Mariana Baca

            You are asking doctors who think a specific vbac is too risky to do TOL to watch as a woman labors in their hospital and not provide a c-section but only provide a csection if the woman requests. Why are they watching, then, when it is already past their risk-threshold level? They already know when they recommend a c-section: before rupture of membranes. You want a woman access to a facility while refusing medical advice.

            Turn the situation around. Let’s say I decided trepanation will cure my migraines. Doctors do cut holes in skulls for pressure buildup or brain surgery, so doctor is refusing based on risk/benefit analysis of my situation: that trepanation is incredibly risky and won’t cure my migraines, not because it is not a valid medical event. So I have the choice to go home, take a drill to my skull (or get my friend who is a member or a trepanation society with a drill to do it), and when things go wrong hope that I don’t die in the 10 minute transfer to the hospital. Hey, in ancient times trepanation had a 1:3 risk of death, so there is a greater than 66% chance I’ll be fine.

            What you are asking is that doctors should provide me an OR to allow me to trepane myself and have them just “watch and wait”, and if there is a problem they can just jump in at any moment. Except they already stated that the moment they would choose to jump in is before I even start the drill. Is that fair to neurosurgeons (some ORs don’t even have neurosurgeons)? Do I have the right to use OR facilities in this way? Is it safe for me to do? Should doctors really wait until I drill into my skull to stop me while they watch, and have to take full responsibility if I don’t warn them in time to repair the damage? Doesn’t my bodily autonomy trump all this?

            Except, with a VBAC, the risk is also on the baby, not just the mother.

          • Hush

            They already have to provide that OR, it’s called a hospital. There are laws in place already about accepting a woman in labor and not doing surgery against her consent. The issue, here, arises because they occasionally break the law and because going against medical advice in this type of situation tends to create hostility where honestly they should be happy the woman bothered to show up in the hospital at all. Keep mistreating women who are going against medical advice, keep right on doing it and driving the women to HBAC because they are afraid of retaliation from people who think that the “stupid woman” (people keep calling her stupid!) needs punished.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            They should be happy the woman showed up at all? What planet are you living on? They’re supposed to be thrilled that they get to have the care and responsibility and legal liability of this completely batshit-crazy woman who readily admits that her baby’s life is not her priority?

            Sign me up!

          • Mariana Baca

            I never called her stupid. She might be misinformed or misled. Neither do I think she needs to be punished. But I think it is unreasonable to require doctors to admit a patient in a non-emergency asking for a procedure against AMA and then saying it is their fault for them to show up in an emergency room.

            More realistic example: Plastic surgeons refuse surgery on patients with risk factors. Woman really wants a nose job but is a heavy smoker with cardiac arrhythmia. Surgeon says they won’t do plastic surgery on her, unless she were to show up in the ER with a mutilated nose from an accident, then they would fix it. Woman starts procedure at home, it goes bad, and doctor needs to repair nose in ER. She suffers complications and it is not as nice as if the PS had done it to begin with. Did that surgeon drive her to do this?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It is a medical event in the same way russian roulette is a “medical event.” So if a woman comes in and wants to play russian roulette, should the hospital let her?

            Autonomy and free agency and all that, right?

        • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

          Actually, it is in women who don’t follow their doctors advice. There is a reason why some women are allowed VBACs and others are not. It is called evidence based medicine. You don’t just watch some dip-shit documentary and read a lay-persons book who let her own son die and make life or death decisions based on pure ignorance.

          • Hush

            Oh yes, I knew this sort of thing was coming. “Just follow what the doctor said and all will be well.. ” Okay, I don’t want to. Now what?

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Live with your consequences. And the knowledge that you killed your baby.

          • Hush

            Well that is one way to view it. I don’t view it that way.

          • moto_librarian

            So when multiple doctors and CNMs refuse to participate in your VBAC, what does that tell you? Maybe that it’s a horrible idea? That the people who have looked at your history, uterus, etc., conclude that you are not a candidate for a VBAC?

            I guess it’s just easier to bitch and moan about “meen” doctors than to consider the fact that your baby stands a good chance of dying for your birth experience.

          • Hush

            I would not assume that. No.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            You were told that if you tried to labor, there was a very good chance your uterus would rupture and you and the baby could die.

            You labored at home. Your uterus ruptured. The baby died. You hemorrhaged and needed a blood transfusion. If you hadn’t been brought to the hospital, you would have died too.

            But it totally wasn’t a bad idea and the dead baby isn’t your fault. How do you get there?

          • Hush

            I actually think that they should say the truth, but they should include it in a non-nonsense non-emotive matter of fact way. For instance her risk of rupture as a VBA2C is X% and we can’t continue to care for you if you are seeking a VBA2C and we will be here 30 days to give you care as needed. If you decide you want to try for a VBA2C anyway, come to the hospital as soon as possible so you can be properly monitored. We will do everything we can to respect your wishes, even if we disagree with you. Here is a number to Dr. X, he might be a better fit as a care provider for you. If not, like we said, we will care for you if you need it or if you change your mind about the cesarean.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            They cannot refer to another doctor, because what she wanted to do was against all medical guidelines. Get that through your skull- her “plan” was suicidally stupid, and no doctor is required to oversee it.

            They would have been lying if they’d said they weren’t going to push for a C-section ASAP, because they would have. It would have been crucial in avoiding that whole rupture thing and dead baby thing, which you’re just brushing off.

            Now, tell me again how if the doctor tells you “If you do X, Y bad outcome could happen”, and you do X, and Y happens, it’s not your fault. Because it’s totally your fault.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’ve said this in another cases. There are times when a doctor can say, “No, I cannot refer you to another doctor, because any doctor who would give you a different opinion on this matter is a complete quack. No one I know is a that way. Anyone I refer you to will tell you the same thing. This isn’t close to being debatable by any legitimate practitioner.”

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            THANK YOU YEEZUS!!! This woman just doesn’t get it! There are protocols in place to protect patients and stupid people alike! She thinks this shit is just made up to prevent natural births. The next thing she is going to say is doctors get paid more for c-sections. Ugh, gimme a break, it’s a global fee! let me just put that out there real quick

          • Hush

            It sounds to me like it is more like this. They tell you if you do X, then Y might happen followed possibly by Z so we don’t want you to do X. If you do want to do X, though, then you’d better not show up to see us until you’re almost done or else we will make sure that X doesn’t get carried out. As a result, the woman stays home trying to do X when Y DOES happen mid-way through and then Z follows because she didn’t go to a hospital for X. If she’d gone directly to the hospital for X, though, then when Y happened, it probably would have been caught and Z may not have happened.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            They did not tell her to show up in full labor. They didn’t want her to do that. Hospitals never like people to show up with emergency situations.

            She heard “come in fully dilated” because she wanted to hear it, but that was not what was said. What they said was, if she came in, they would push for C-section because it was safer. She twisted it in her own mind to be what she wanted to hear, but that’s all on her.

          • moto_librarian

            Of course not.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            you are absolutely right! If you follow your doctor’s advice your babies live!!! My GOD what a novel idea?! Doctor’s don’t just practice willy-nilly and throw darts at the board to make decisions, they evaluate the situation and make a practical and logical decision based on fact not shit. Making shit decisions results in shit results, bottom-line

          • Hush

            So if the baby doesn’t live.. even doing everything they said to do…

          • Trixie

            If she had done what the doctors said, her baby WOULD BE ALIVE.

          • Hush

            And you know this 100%. They had an early elective cesarean scheduled for prior to when she went into labor? They instructed her that even if she decided to not just come in for the early cesarean (that we don’t even know if they scheduled which they may not have!! or she may have went into labor before that date) or if she went into labor before her scheduled cesarean.. that if she did not consent they wouldn’t do one? It doesn’t sound like that to me. It sounds like they said if you don’t want a cesarean you’ll have to come in rocking and rolling.. And it sounds like she went into labor before the scheduled a cesarean.. If she’d gone directly to the hospital because she had nothing to fear… or was not told “come in rocking and rolling” or else.. what would have happened?

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            That doesn’t make sense based on her description of events, if she had a scheduled c-section her baby would be alive. there are no ifs ands or buts about it.

          • Hush

            She didn’t really say whether they scheduled the cesarean or not or if she went into labor prior to the scheduled cesarean. It DOES however say that they explicitly told her that if she didn’t want a c-section to come in ready to have the baby.. Sounds like it was their fault. She should’ve been able to go to the hospital for monitoring without the veiled threat that they’d obtain consent however possible.

          • Trixie

            It sounds like a rogue CNM told her to show up pushing. It’s hard to tell if it’s a home birth or a hospital CNM. Probably a home birth CNM. Either way, not a doctor. And again, she’s got the education and experience to know better.

          • Hush

            So it was the CNM and not the physicians that suggested she show up late in labor? Or could it have been both? And, the CNM takes no blame to you guys if she did in fact endorse this mother staying home to labor etc. It’s just the mom’s fault even though a midwife told her what she was doing was safe?

          • Trixie

            It was a CNM. And, if the mother is telling the truth, it was shockingly irresponsible.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            I have been a Resp Therapist for 7 years, the only babies I have seen die in the hospital are the ones like your friend’s that you are defending. I frequently get paged to the ER and or NICU to deal with dumb-asses like her who endanger their lives and the baby’s life. It is sickening, I have never, not once had a baby die whose mother followed the advice of her OB/MFMS and got the c-section or induction. Not once, so if the baby dies on the OBs watch at least the mother knows she did EVERYTHING she could to save her baby.

          • Young CC Prof

            Are doctors always right? No. If three different doctors emphatically tell you the same thing, however…

          • Hush

            Okay.. that is interesting perspective… but they were I believe going on a policy. Did 3 different doctors from 3 different practices, including one from an VBA2C friendly hospital, tell her the same thing?

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

            You don’t want to. So don’t. And end up with a dead baby. Congratulations.

          • ngozi

            You don’t and you take your chances. You have to hope there aren’t deadly consequences.

          • anne

            Then you probably shouldn’t be having a kid. If avoiding a c-section is more important than your child’s life it’s time to stop getting pregnant and move on with the family you already have.

          • anne

            I just wanted to add that it’s just really clear in this case that a c-section would happen in the next pregnancy. A lot of women don’t get as many warnings and first hand experience about what can go wrong.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            What? The doctor wants to use a sterile scalpel to perform surgery?!? But I don’t want him to! I want him to use a dirty rock. And I want him to do the hoky poky while he does the surgery. Why won’t he respect my autonomy? I guess there’s only one choice: I’ll do it myself at home. And if I die, how dare you suggest it’s my fault. He’s clearly to blame!

          • lilin

            Then the doctor won’t treat you.

            Oh right, I forgot. Women are people. Doctors are not! They’re machines, and they are there to unhook themselves from their educational background and mindlessly dispense whatever healthcare an actual *human* requests from them, no matter what damage it does to their emotions, their professional reputation, or their mind.

          • S

            You sought care from a doctor, presumably because you wanted the doctor’s expertise and clinical judgment. If you don’t like the doctor’s recommendations, then you do what you want. That’s your right as an adult patient. And then you have a choice. You can behave like an adult and take responsibility for your own decision and its consequences. Or you can act like a kid trying to avoid punishment, searching for someone else to blame.

    • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

      and your friend was stupid, she is lucky her baby is alive

      • Hush

        That is your opinion.. I rather think she is a smart person who made a decision I would not have but it’s her body.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          No, it was a stupid decision. It’s her body and her right to make it, but that doesn’t make it not a stupid decision.

          And very smart people can still make very stupid decisions. I can’t comment on your friend’s overall smartness. This decision, however, was stupid.

        • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

          there is nothing smart about risking your life and unborn child’s life. it is beyond ignorant, borderline criminal. HB should be illegal

          • Hush

            Oh please. It is so easy for you to sit there and judge someone else over one medical decision that you don’t agree with… but you don’t know her, and she is a good person and a good mother.. It is currently not criminal to HBAC.

          • moto_librarian

            No it’s not, and I don’t think it should be criminal for the mother. It should be criminal for a midwife to veer so far beyond her scope of practice and attend this type of disaster.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            Yes, it’s very easy to judge. We have teams of data explaining the precise risks your friend was willing to impose on a helpless child.

          • Trixie

            No one thinks it should be criminal to HBAC. Most of us think it should be criminal for a paid birth attendant to attend an HBAC.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            Shit, i think it should be 100% illegal

          • Trixie

            I disagree, because a woman’s right to bodily autonomy is absolute.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            that’s fine, i’m cool with that, but I have seen too much to agree

          • Trixie

            So, you do know her?

          • Hush

            This particular mother? No.

          • Jenny_from_da_Bloc

            it was a bad fu*cking decision, her baby is dead and she is a shitty mother, person and nurse for allowing that to happen because SHE wanted a natural vag birth. It was ignorant and dangerous and the outcome was predictable. And it 100% should be illegal to have a HB, you don’t even understand what med professional have to deal with when these women come into the ER half dead with a dead baby in their womb or hanging out of their vagina. It is beyond horrific and people should be held criminally responsible for making decisions that result in death.

    • Trulyunbelievable2020

      “True agency” doesn’t mean that a woman can force a doctor to do something he or she knows is insane.

      • Hush

        Okay so they got a court order.. because she was insane?

        • Trulyunbelievable2020

          Who got a court order?

          • Hush

            Exactly.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            No, it was a question. I have no idea what your point is here. Care to explain?

          • Hush

            Exactly they did not get a court order so why are people saying that she was insane? If she was really completely crazy they could and should have taken away her rights. I mean if this was a suicide attempt or an attempt to murder her baby. It was not, though, she was simply taking a calculated risk.

          • C T

            They didn’t get a court order because she was at home and not under their care. They had no responsibility for her because she rejected the care they offered as not being in line with her wishes and beliefs.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            Oh, I’m sorry: when I said “insane” I wasn’t referencing the legal definition. I was merely saying that she’s a fucking batshit crazy person, a stupid hippy-dippy flake who is thrilled about a premature baby because it happened to pop out of her sacred yoni, a senseless moron who thinks that it’s reasonable to say that a “healthy baby was NOT my only goal outcome.”

            You may not realize this, but calling her “insane” is actually a compliment of sorts. The other option is completely and irredeemably evil.

    • Elizabeth A

      If the woman had had a trial of labor in hospital, and experienced the rupture she did in hospital, the FIRST question at the morbidity and mortality review, I am almost willing to guarantee, would be “Why did we ever proceed with this trial of labor?” and the doctors who allowed it would be *grilled* for that choice.

      This woman’s doctors told her the truth: Labor would be dangerous for her and her baby, and they could not support her choice to labor. If she came into the hospital in labor, they would proceed to c-section immediately. That would be the only reasonable course they could take while remaining in good standing in their profession. Disagreeing but going ahead with it anyway is how doctors lose their malpractice insurance.

      No amount of being nice will stop a patient from having an emotional reaction, so doctors try their best, but there are limits. How betrayed would that woman feel if her doctors had told her to come in and they’d monitor and do their best to get her a vaginal delivery, and she’d come in, and the admitting nurse had called the head of the department, who had then come charging in with the hospital’s liability counsel and demanded that she have a c-section immediately? Because her doctors would have been able to see that scenario coming a mile away. Better they tell her the truth in advance, because no matter what they say, she wasn’t getting what she wanted in the end.

      • Hush

        They would have been grilled if it was a facility that supported VBA2C? Cesareans do happen against consent of women. And what right does the liability counsel have to usurp the doctors that way?! This is what I mean by policy over people.

        • guest1

          I have been a L&D RN for 18 years at 5 major hospitals and have never seen a cesarean forced on anyone. I have seen a couple of patients who were told, honestly, that their babies would die if they did not immediately have a C/S, and they agreed to it. Forced, never. Informed consent with the TRUTH being given, of course.

          • Hush

            I’ve never seen a gorilla in person. Do they not exist?

          • Siri

            Have you worked in zoos and wildlife parks for 18 years?

          • Hush

            Oh Jesus. Okay, I’ve worked as a person who makes and sells artistic jewelry, I have for 10 years.. I have never personally handled any rough cut rubies. Does that mean they don’t exist? Plus, hi. You are regular over at MOBSW if I am not mistaken..

          • Siri

            Hi, Hush! So you’re a layperson. And many of the commenters on here are highly qualified, very experienced obstetricians, labour nurses, midwives etc. Do you accept that they may have more knowledge than you do about these matters?

            P.S. I love and adore artistic jewellery.

          • Hush

            They are qualified to rather angrily eviscerate a newly post-partum mother that just lost her baby.. and squarely blame her with no mercy or even a hint of identifying with her or her decision making process?? And I can even predict the responses “she didn’t have mercy for her baby”. Just pitiful, honestly. I was beginning to think that some of you folks MIGHT be more humanistic than you had been portrayed but frankly the response to this poor woman is …. just sickening.

          • Siri

            I don’t want to insult you, Hush, but their anger comes from a place of being able to fully understand and appreciate this story from a professional point of view. Don’t be so quick to write people off as merciless; you don’t know what they deal with on a daily basis in their jobs.

          • Young CC Prof

            We do have empathy for her. She was operating on a bizarre view of the world, it led her to make an extremely dangerous choice, people tried to change her mind, unfortunately she did not change her mind, perhaps because others, including, apparently a CNM who should have known better, supported her deadly choice.

            We just don’t believe that her doctor should have agreed to stand there and watch her labor, knowing that any moment disaster could strike, and NOT push for a c-section.

          • anne

            There are HB loss/injury moms that I have much sympathy for. Not this one. She knew, more intimately than most of us, exactly how risky birth and pregnancy can be. Her attitude of process over outcome and her willingness to harm those around her to achieve her goals is clear in her writing.

          • Jessica S.

            I completely agree with you. In few instances do I feel comfortable addressing the responsibility of the mother, but here she is laying it all bare – and it ain’t pretty. The people who tried to get her to have a CS are NOT to blame.

          • S

            You can have empathy for a person and still believe her actions were completely indefensible.

          • Hush

            But they.. weren’t indefensible. She was under the care of a CNM who supported her. She was a trauma survivor who no doubt carried that into her decision making,. She was very likely being encouraged by a lot of natural birth sorts. She was/is a nurse. And she is a human being who obviously made a huge mistake…. It’s not indefensible… so believing so is incorrect at best and evil when you are applying it to say awful horrible things about this poor person that does not deserve to be told things like the truly nasty things that are being written here.

        • Carolina

          Do you support the right of patients to sue for medical malpractice? I do. And that’s why hospitals have counsel and policies. Even mothers who refused and fought c-sections have won lawsuits against doctors/hospitals for failure to do a section quickly enough.

        • C T

          I believe you on this point. Sometimes C-sections are forced on women by a court order. It happens. I would hardly call it “policy over people”, though. The purpose of going to court in such cases is specifically to save people, i.e., the baby and mother, over sticking adamantly to a no-C-section policy. You are the one defending ideology over lives, not the hospitals.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      In a world where women actually have true agency, as they very well
      should, over their own bodies in a hospital… would this have happened
      like this?

      If she’d come into the hospital in early labor, she would have been “bullied”, i.e. the staff would have strongly urged her to get a c-section as soon as possible. If she refused, she would have been “tied down with equipment”, i.e. she would have been monitored as carefully as possible because she was a high risk for a rupture. If she refused monitoring, she would have been “bullied” further to accept as much monitoring as possible. If she refused, she would have been watched in any way that she would accept and as soon as she had shown signs of rupture she would have been offered a c-section as quickly as possible (unless she went unconscious, in which case an emergency c would have been done). Probably one or more staff members would have PTSD from caring for her because they would be forced to watch a disaster that they know they could prevent unfold and forced to do nothing.

      What would NOT have happened: She would not have been forced to have a c-section or any other intervention that she did not want unless there was strong evidence, as in evidence that would convince a judge–and a judge would be the one making this call–that she was not competent and her current statements were contrary to her true desires. Given her history of making consistent statements that she did not want interventions, I doubt a judge would agree. So, unless she could be convinced to change her mind, she would have only been monitored until the actual rupture occurred. Then she might have had the baby within a few minutes and been able to take home a baby.

    • Mariana Baca

      It is not that doctors want to perform c-sections without consent, but they aren’t going to let a woman do something they know id dangerous under their watch because they will be held responsible. You want a laboring woman to have all the rights and none of the responsibilities. That is not how the world works or should work. Informed consent means if you don’t consent you are fully responsible for the consequences — you can’t pass the blame back to the doctors if you act AMA. That the doctors won’t give you options against medical advice is just reality, not a “ban.”

      • Hush

        “let” a woman?

        • Mariana Baca

          Yes, last I checked “let” means to allow someone to do something. If a person is in a hospital, that hospital, being private property, “lets” you do things there. They are required to provide emergency care by law. Otherwise, they aren’t required to “let” you do whatever you want on premises.

          • Hush

            If a woman is in labor she is “in emergency” and they are required to care for her. They cannot do surgery against her consent, though..

          • attitude devant

            You seem to understand law even less than you understand obstetrics.

          • Hush

            So either I misunderstood that they are required to care for a woman in labor… or I misunderstood that they cannot do surgery against consent (barring the woman is incapable of consenting and thus a proxy or med pro will decide)…

          • Mariana Baca

            They are required to keep a woman in an ER during labor if she is passed the stage she can safely transfer, but they are not required to house patients that refuse care AMA but can still be transferred.

          • Mariana Baca

            You are still arguing she can have it both ways.

        • Mariana Baca

          As an example of hospitals not “letting” people do something, they also don’t need to “let” a woman commit suicide on premises (putting you on suicide watch, declining euthanasia services), they don’t need to “let” a woman hit people if you are under a delusion or seizure, they don’t need to “let” a woman stay in a room indefinitely if they don’t require medical care.

          • Hush

            So, just so we are clear here.. You think a VBA2C is akin to literally trying to commit suicide even if that generally is not the case at all and there was no way for this mother to know that it was THAT risky for her?

          • Karen in SC

            She knew it was VERY risky for her & her baby. I don’t know anyone personally but I’m sure that VBA2C’s occur at properly equipped hospitals with mothers who are good candidates. And there is still a high chance of still ending up with a c-section, but at least a healthy baby in either case.

          • Amazed

            She knew it and chose it anyway.

          • SF Mom & Psychologist

            Well, how about this. They don’t “let” you select, dose and administer your own medications. Not suicide, but not at all safe, either.

          • Mariana Baca

            Nope. I don’t think they are comparable in type or in risk. I’m saying it is a class of action that the hospital does not “let” you do on its premises, even though there are advocates for that right and autonomy.

    • Roly

      1. I completely reject the notion that free agency is the greatest good in life. In plenty if circumstances we must make personal sacrifices for the good of society. For pregnant women there is a special duty to protect their child.

      2. No one with moral standards should be supportive of her. She made a deadly choice for self serving reason. Doctors are under no obligation to support foolish and dangerous decisions made out of ignorance.

      3. This woman should be treated like a child or a mental patient , incompetent to make important decisions because that is how she behaves. Mature women accept that they don’t always get what they want. Rational and sane women accept life’s trade offs. Modern Medicine is designed to keep people healthy based on evidence and an individual’s history.

      A mature, sane woman would have said, ” this May not be what I want but for a few days I will put aside having my way for the greater good”

      She is like a child stomping her feet in defiance. Society should treat her accordingly

      • Hush

        Doctors are not obligated to support it, but they can give their non-support for a decision but still render care. Doctors do this all the time with people who smoke… Pregnant women are human beings who deserve full agency. She should not be treated like a child or a mental patient. She looked at the statistics and came to a different conclusion. For her, this was the bad decision. For most, it wouldn’t be, so acting like a risk is a certainty doesn’t help for the future. It will simply mean that women will continue doing this because of policies that make them afraid to go to the hospital.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          No, it’s a bad decision for everyone. Not everyone will suffer catastrophic consequences, but the risks of that outcome make it a bad decision for everyone.

          A 1.5% chance of rupture is a 1.5% chance of dead baby out of hospital. If you had a stack of 1000 pills in front of you, and only 15 would induce a miscarriage (that is, 1.5%), would you eat any of them? No? Well, that’s what she did. She ate from the pile. And she got one of the 15 bad ones. And even if she hadn’t gotten a bad pill, that doesn’t make her decision any smarter, it just makes her luckier.

          • Hush

            Okay, now WHY was she not in the hospital? Key to my entire point.

          • Carolina

            Because she knew they would recommend a c-section at the first hint of distress, and she didn’t want a section. She was a bad candidate and she knew it.

          • Karen in SC

            She wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She avoided the hospital to get her way.

          • Hush

            No, because she knew they would pressure her from the time she got there. Not just at a hint of distress. And, that they’d not just pressure her but her husband.. and she was very legitly afraid they’d have him consent and claim she was crazy.

          • Siri

            I don’t know about the US, but here in the UK no one is ever asked to consent on anyone else’s behalf. EVER.

          • Hush

            She said in her story that her husband consented to the other cesarean.

          • Siri

            Well, that’s very weird, but then I don’t know anything about consent law in the US. I know in Australia relatives are sometimes asked to consent on someone else’s behalf, but this seems very wrong to me.

          • Hush

            I don’t think it is usually how it is done but I have read many accounts of it.

          • KarenJJ

            I’ve had a family member claim this and it just doesn’t add up. At any rate it was back in the 70s and I have never heard of it happening elsewhere (australia).

          • Siri

            The weird thing is, a friend of mine did some emergency medicine in Australia in the early 2000s; she described a situation where surgery could not proceed because the hospital couldn’t get in touch with some distant relative far away. I’m sure modern consent law prohibits this kind of thing, but perhaps outdated attitudes persist in some settings? Apart from anything else, emergency procedures don’t actually REQUIRE consent, certainly in the UK.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            What is this “hint of distress” nonsense? They undoubtedly told her that there was a serious risk of her child dying if she disregarded medical advice. What, precisely, should they have said?

          • Mac Sherbert

            Exactly! She didn’t want the C-section. She knew she didn’t need one. Turns out she was WRONG. She didn’t want to listen to the doctors tell her what would be the smartest thing to do. She wanted what she wanted. She got what she got. I normally feel sympathy for loss Moms, but I’m really just angry at this mother.
            It’s like she is/was disconnected from reality. She was acting crazy.

          • Carolina

            She had medical advice. She didn’t like the medical advice. How it the heck is that the hospital’s fault? If someone comes in and needs surgery, what is the hospital supposed to do? I’m guessing document the hell out of it, but even then the recaliterant patient will sue and claim they didn’t know HOW bad the risk was.

          • Maria

            Why is it “bullying” or pressuring when what they are doing is giving her the information that allows for the best possible chance of having a living, healthy baby. When my sister sees the same patients over and over again, in the hospital because of complications related to smoking, she tells them every.single.time that they need to quit smoking and that she can help them. Is she bullying or pressuring that patient or is she doing her best to help provide that patient with quality care and advice? Doctors have to tell patients what they don’t what to hear every day.

          • fiftyfifty1

            It’s not possible for a husband to consent for his wife. He can’t just claim she is crazy. She would need to be declared incompetent. This can’t happen without a judge.

            What actually happens is that sometimes husbands BEG their wives to have a needed C-section. The woman finally agrees, but later when talking to her NCB buddies she claims she was coerced or even “forced” so that she can save face.

          • Amazed

            Because she was a speshul little snowflake bragging rights. Just like you.

          • Hush

            What did I brag about?

          • Amazed

            Not about. Bragging rights. Like the right to place your baby’s life BEHIND your right to a VBAC. That’s what she did and you support.

          • Siri

            Because doing the sensible, safe thing was too ordinary – too bourgeouis – too mainstream. Only put-upon little women ask nothing more than a live baby from their pregnancies. She is a rebel! A maverick! Yoohoo, watch me skydive with my baby in a backpack! Being alive isn’t the only goal here!!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Because she was brainwashed by people like you that hospitals wouldn’t care about her, that a C-section is evil, and that she needed an “experience” over a live, healthy baby.

          • Jessica S.

            Because they didn’t give her the answer she wanted. It’s that simple. And it’s not about policy, it’s about her specific risks. It’s beyond me how she thought she could escape a high risk situation with her history. She should have accepted any suggestion the doctors have b/c they were interested in a live mother and baby as an outcome. Frankly, and completely personally, I wouldn’t have continued to get pregnant, knowing the likely outcome of pre-term labor/delivery. HOWEVER, medical advances such as they are, it’s not a crazy thing to attempt IF AND ONLY IF you’re willing to accept said advances! I don’t know what other conclusion to draw but that she favored her way of delivery over the well-being of herself and her child. That’s not hyperbole. It’s sheer denial for her to think she could dodge the bullet. It’s beyond a poor choice or decision. It’s flat out delusion. I don’t know who should be “blamed” but I DAMN well know the doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc. that tried to help her have a healthy outcome are NOT to blame.

        • Karen in SC

          I don’t even know if there would have been *any* statistic that correlated with this mother’s chances of a successful VBAC. It was the opinion of more that one doctor that the risk was too high. Of course risk isn’t a certainty – it never is. It’s not an issue of “conclusion” – she wanted a vaginal birth and gambled.

        • fiftyfifty1

          What?! Doctors don’t have to enable smoking in the hospital!! Smoking is 100% prohibited in the hospital. If you want to smoke you’ll have to go home. And a cigarette is a lot less dangerous than a VBA2C with no history of a term vaginal birth and 2 previous incisions on a non-matured uterus. Holy smoke!

      • Young CC Prof

        I do have issues with your suggestion #3. I believe that adults have the right to make their own medical decisions unless they are unresponsive or clearly unable to comprehend the situation or express their wishes, and I do not think a fetus should have LEGAL rights in and of itself. (Of course, the moment the child leaves your body, his right to live and get appropriate medical care overrides the parent’s right to make decisions for him.)

        Morally, of course, taking an extreme risk with the life of your full-term viable fetus is reprehensible.

    • Allie P

      These patients aren’t asking for “agency.” They are asking doctors to practice medicine in the way the patients see fit. It would be like saying to your taxi driver that you’d prefer they only drove with headlights off and blindfolds on. How is that reasonable? The taxi driver would be well within his or her rights to kick you out of the cab.

      • auntbea

        My students just want agency to turn their work in when they see fit. And to remember only the information that retains their interest. And copy from others’ work as they deem necessary. Who am I to fail them for that?

        • LibrarianSarah

          You forgot that they want to have whatever side conversations they see fit without interruption and to be able to text their friends for the duration of the class.

      • Hush

        Asking them not to high-pressure your family into pressuring you into surgery that.. in absence of a medical emergency is actually not yet completely necessary!! or retaliate against you for going against medical advice.. Is not asking too much.

        • Amazed

          Hey, Dr Hush, would you care to show us your medical diploma before you keep embarrasing yourself by pretending to know more than doctors who, I remind you again, turned out to be RIGHT? Surely you must have one, if you’re so bold as to dictate a plan of care based on risk estimation vs true emergency?

          Alas, a Google University diploma doesn’t count.

          I am not holding my breath.

          • Hush

            I didn’t say what she did was logical or wonderful or even what I would have done.. I just don’t blame her for distrusting doctors, and I don’t blame her for trusting the CNM, and I don’t blame her for making a mistake.

          • Siri

            The problem is, she doesn’t think she made a mistake. She would do it again. THAT is NOT normal.

          • Amazed

            Yeah, I am not at all surprised. You just have to support one of your fellow entitled women, eh?

            You don’t blame anyone else but the doctors and the system. Conveniently overlooking the fact that they gave this joke of a mother three living children. But hey, no one who distrusts the system should be blamed. Because doctors are evil even when they save your baby’s life. What does it matter? They are untrustworthy by the very fact that they are doctors.

          • Hush

            I didn’t say she wasn’t partly to blame. You guys are saying she is completely to blame, when really it is a series of unfortunate circumstances, her history, support from a CNM, the current state of VBAC and VBA2C in hospitals etc.

          • Amazed

            She shopped for this incompetent CNM when even VBAC friendly hospitals turned her down. She knew very well that she was a terrible candidate for a VBAC because of unfortunate circumstances and her history that she chose not to take into account.

            The current state of VBAC and VBA2C has nothing to do with her situation. Her doctors examined her PERSONAL circumstances and deemed her unappropriate for VBAC. Isn’t that what you all howl about? Personalized care?

            Of course, your own howlings over this thread seem to be in the tune of “personalized care means having doctors do exactly what I want them to do. They aren’t there to counsel me. They are there to serve me. Like waiters in a restaurant.”

        • Trulyunbelievable2020

          “in absence of a medical emergency”

          But it WAS a “medical emergency,” as evidenced by the fact that the baby died as a result of her choice to defy medical advice. Why is that so difficult for you to get through your head?

          • Hush

            It wasn’t a medical emergency when they wanted to schedule the cesarean.. You guys grasp at straws sheesh.

          • Trulyunbelievable2020

            How do you define “medical emergency?” Would a situation where a baby is at serious risk of dying qualify as an emergency?

          • anne

            She had a medical emergency in every single one of her pregnancies. They wanted to prevent another one.

            My husband has had a surgery to prevent a worse medical outcome. It’s not restricted to the world of birthing.

          • BeatlesFan

            Do you feel the same way about doctors scheduling bypass surgery BEFORE their patient has another heart attack? How about an appendectomy BEFORE the appendix bursts? Doctors aim to prevent emergencies, not just treat them after they happen.

          • Jessica S.

            Do you truly believe there would not have been medical emergency? The odds she would have a successful vaginal delivery were slim based on her history. If she HAD scheduled a SC, it would’ve been a miracle for her to make it to FT without a rupture. Regular commenter (and doctor) Dr. Kitty posted an excellent reasoning for this, for more details.

            All that aside, it was irresponsible for her NOT to schedule a CS with her history. I’m not saying that about every VBAC hopeful, I’m talking about a woman with her history. In this case, it was not about trying to push a woman into an “unnecessary” CS, it was about preventing deaths. So the excuse that she would be badgered is not applicable. You’re the one grasping at straws if you fail to see that.

    • yugaya

      “. Was this all her fault, and not partly a system that treats women
      like they are insolent children”

      This woman behaved emotionally and mentally just like an insolent child. She has the right to make her own choices, people have rights to make all sorts of choices regarding their own bodies. But that does not make their choices legitimate, rational, mature or ‘evidence-based’. And you certainly cannot blame even to some extent that on the ‘system’, because no system designed to benefit the entire society should be made to accommodate needs of people who choose to act immaturely against common sense and go and do insanely stupid things just for the heck of it.

      There has been for years now an onslaught of tourists falling to their death while hopping over hotel balconies. Is our system partly to blame for the idiots who chose not to use the doors which the system has designed for that purpose? Are the hotels guilty of not having firefighters with safety nets parked in front of each and every hotel?

      If you want to place partial blame anywhere, give the credit where it’s due – to the natural childbirth advocates who keep perpetuating the lie that HBAC is just a woman wanting to go through her own door on her path through childbirth, when in reality she ignored all the warning signs that system has in place and decided to go adrenaline junkie balcony hopping.

    • lilin

      Hey, doc! I know that you studied and trained for the better part of a decade to practice medicine, but I have an opinion! And if that opinion involves making you watch me kill my kid right in front of you, it doesn’t matter. And if that opinion involves forcing you to take professional responsibility for my uneducated risks, it also doesn’t matter. I get to steer the medical treatment – but you have to account for any bad outcomes with that treatment.

      While we’re at it, I’d like to quibble with pilots about what the correct way to fly a plane is. And I shouldn’t be told what to do in an emergency! It’s my body, and I get to risk it (and anyone depending on it) if I want to!

      There’s a difference between agency and forcing professionals to conform to and take responsibility, emotionally and professionally, for your ignorance.

    • Hush

      The stark contrast between the way you guys answer my response to this and the way NCB people do is … It’s like wishing I could take your minds and meld them together and make a rational freaking human being out of it.

      • Siri

        My worry is that you seem unable to recognise rational human beings when you see them. You have received some eminently sensible replies on here (and some emotional ones, granted).

      • C T

        I know. If we would just agree with you already. What is wrong with us really? Is it that we love babies more than hate hospitals? Is it that we read studies and have experiences (too often involving dead and injured babies) that cause us to come to different conclusions than you? Is it that this forum doesn’t ban detractors (unlike NCB people) and learns from conflict instead of us all holding hands while we walk someone off a cliff?

        • Hush

          Honestly the lack of compassion and knee jerk “blame the mom” is mainly the thing here. I blame mom, but I blame lots of other people too.

          • Mariana Baca

            The problem is you blame the people who are trying their best to save the mom and baby, namely, the hospital. They warned her it was dangerous and patched her up once she ruptured. You are blaming them for warning her is it was dangerous when they knew they would likely be the ones patching her up! That is what is beyond comprehension.

          • C T

            Nice attempt to deflect. Who else are we supposed to blame? She was at home alone by her own choice because she valued a vaginal birth over her child’s life.

          • Hush

            That is not an accurate depiction of the events that unfolded. There was a lot of trauma on her part involved and she was probably jaded quite a lot about the “golden word of doctors” because she was a nurse and had a prior poor experience.

          • C T

            So perhaps she was suffering from PTSD in connection with her first three births and making a poor decision due to mental illness. I can accept that far better than that this was a well-reasoned decision.

          • lilin

            “There was a lot of trauma on her part involved and she was probably jaded quite a lot about the “golden word of doctors” because she was a nurse and had a prior poor experience.”

            Yeah, as we all know, when doctors saved the lives of her three previous children, it was a traumatic experience for her! Those evil doctors, allowing her to have happy, healthy children instead of corpses!

            As for your “probably” – are you just making stuff up now? Let me try, too! She probably tried to hit a doctor with her car on the way out of the hospital! She probably is lying her ass off and she’s actually a 13-year-old kid writing a fiction novel! That’s what’s probably true! Probably!

          • Hush

            Well, I’ll give you props for being creative.

          • lilin

            Back at you. You’ve told some whoppers today.

          • Hush

            Really, do explain where that comment comes from?

          • lilin

            The VBAC thing was out of policy. The doctors made the decision “out of policy.” Ooops, no they didn’t! It wasn’t a policy.

            “A CNM is not bound by EMTALA laws. Also, she shouldn’t just drop a patient she should give written 30 day notice.” Oh, oops, except for the ones that are!

            She probably thought this, she probably feared that, she probably saw evil doctors tell lies! Probably, probably, probably, probably, evidence? I don’t need to show any!

          • Hush

            I don’t know if it was a policy or not. It might have been or might not have been. That doesn’t make a lie. You’re just being nasty.

            The CNM Emtala thing was not a lie, it was an oversight. Again, just you being nasty for being nasty sake.

            My “probably” is because no one else is defending this poor lady. If she finds all this nasty stuff from you sick people it will be horrible for her mental health.

          • sofrustrated

            Bingo!

            SHE killed her baby, but it will be our fault if her mental health is damaged.

            You’re absolving her of the death of her child. YOU are the nasty one here.

          • lilin

            Sometimes the truth is nasty, sweetie. That doesn’t make us mean for telling it.

          • lilin

            I love how making things up isn’t nasty, but calling you out on your lies is.

            If the only way you can sympathize with someone is making up lies, don’t bother.

          • Jessica S.

            Yeah, usually I would be on board with that, too but this woman is different and I’m not sure what could have made it any clearer to her that pregnancy + her body does NOT equal a easy time of it. If she had no medical training and no doctor told her otherwise, her past pregnancies and deliveries were enough of a testament! Pregnancy is a obviously a more serious case with her. It’s really not about ideology or systems – it’s clear cut reality in this instance.

    • Amazed

      Oh god, let’s talk about the system. So the doctors saw the stupidity of her ways, pointed out the dangers to this imbecile, they turned out to be RIGHT and it’s somehow the system’s fault because the imbecile wanted rights?

      I love people like you, Hush. I love your ilk, going to the hospital as if they’re going to a restaurant and choose whatever they like from the menu. Good luck with finding a Western restaurant ready to serve you raw meat because you want to exert your agency.

      You can exert rights, Hush. But then you have to shoulder the consequences.

      As to your bullshit about doctors and nurses believing that they have right to perform a CS against the woman’s consent… are you blind or just dumb? They didn’t do a CS against the imbecile’s wishes. That’s why the baby was martyred.

    • anon

      Actually, you are frankly mistaken. It is not “YOUR BODY AND YOUR BABY.” It is both her body and the body of her child, who is entitled to human rights (including the right to life) just as the mother is. In American, mothers don’t own their own babies. Just as it would be considered murder to shoot your baby in the head immediately after birth (because you killed a person, not “YOUR BABY”), this women deliberately forfeited the life of another human being in her pursuit of her own selfish wishes. As a mother myself, it is shocking to me that a mother would act this way. It is also shocking to me that you would disregard the rights of the baby, Hush.

      • Hush

        That is ridiculous.

    • lilin

      First of all, women don’t know what’s best when it comes to medical care. Men don’t know what’s best when it comes to medical care. Doctors know what’s best when it comes to medical care, because they are trained for years to do it. She got advice from three doctors. It’s true she couldn’t force doctors to silently take part in a course of action they knew was likely to result in the death of a baby, but that’s exactly how it should be. They are humans, too, and have the right to refuse to help kill a child on command by its mother. She made her choice, having been respectfully informed of the risks by multiple doctors.

      “Either women are adult enough to become pregnant, make medical decisions for themselves and their babies, or they are not.”

      They are. And that means they are to blame when the medical course they take, knowing it is more likely to result in a dead baby, results in a dead baby.

    • Kupo

      “You blame the mother for her choice…”
      Or, Dr Amy is reminding the mother that _she_ made her decision based on all the best information available to her and thus the mother should accept the consequences of her well-informed bad choice.

      “In a world where women actually have true agency, as they very well should, over their own bodies in a hospital… would this have happened like this?”
      Yes. Because it has. Or would you prefer a health system which lies and flatters and infantilizes the pregnant mother in order for her to make the ‘correct’ choice?

      “Either women are adult enough to become pregnant, make medical decisions for themselves and their babies, or they are not..”
      ‘Adult’ is not correlated with sanity, assertiveness, or emotional maturity.
      All anyone living with ‘adults’ can hope for is the adult has the emotional maturity to deal with the negative consequences of decisions.

    • CanDoc

      I’m confused. Blame it on me being in lefty Canada where we DON’T believe that the right of the autonomous individual trumps that of society… BUT even here, an autonomous woman here who is competent (e.g. not in a vegetative or psychotic state) has FULL AUTONOMY over her own body. So if she refuses the cesarean section with terrible fetal distress as we watch her child die on the fetal monitor, that his her choice. I can’t drug her or force her into surgery to which she has explicitly refused. If a woman wants a V10BAC and shows up in labour at my hospital, I will clearly explain and document the risks and recommend cesarean, but if she refuses and is competent, I have zero recourse to perform surgery on her BY FORCE against her will.
      Is it different in the USA?

    • aussie

      Do you try to put yourself in the position of the hospital provider? All they are doing is trying to make sure women and babies are safe and that people understand risks. It is their legal responsibility to tell the woman the risks. If a hospital cannot get a patient to theatre within 30 mins at any time of day or night, they would be irresponsible to accept a patient attempting VBAC2, because she and her baby could still die and then all the finger-pointing and lawsuits would be directed at these caring, competent people who only want a healthy baby and healthy Mum outcome. No-one is doing operations without consent. Yes, if the provider feels that the baby/mum is going to die (for example, when she is bleeding to death from a MPP) they will put a LOT of pressure on a woman to consent to surgery. You should be asking yourself about the reasoning behind the decision making. Unless you assume that doctors and hospital midwives chose their job because they have some kind of hatred towards labouring women? None of the ones I know!

    • lilin

      Women don’t know what’s best for themselves. Men don’t know what’s best for themselves. Doctors know, but only because they’ve studied and trained for years. They tell people what’s best. And because they are human, so they also have agency, they can’t be forced to silently “supportively” help someone kill their kid.

      “Either women are adult enough to become pregnant, make medical decisions for themselves and their babies, or they are not”

      They are. That’s why they get to choose between a number of medical options. And when they choose, they are responsible for the outcome. She chose. And her baby died. And she’s responsible for that.

    • Playing Possum

      Ugh. All your talk about agency and autonomy and “people before policy” is so abstract. How about this … All of the people in the OR go home and cry after such a C section. So does the funeral director after he finishes preparing a little body to go into a little casket. The cleaners spends hours scrubbing blood off the floors of the OR. The pathologist who did the autopsy struggles to find palatable and dispassionate words to describe the suffocated baby. The nurses on the ward watch a family grieving among the joy of the maternity floor, and try desperately to protect and shield them. The social worker listens and supports a devastated woman holding a limp bundle. That is what it is like when a baby dies. I can assure you that OBs and nurses remember every single death, and are haunted by them. That is what they are trying to prevent. Because there are plenty of unexplained, unpredictable stillbirths, and rare catastrophic maternal deaths, and they are cruel. The last thing the HUMAN people who care for these people is a preventable, predictable death. This was a preventable, predictable death, and it’s disgusting to blame a system or complex or nebulous hearsay of unethical practices or practitioners. Because that is the exact opposite of what obstetric practice, hell, health care, is about.

    • http://housefulofchaos.com/ Christy

      For my 3rd child, I went to an ob with a reputation for supporting natural birth. I wanted a vba2c. She recommended against it but said that they wouldn’t force an operation against my will. I said, if I came in during labour would they be able to monitor me and d a section when needed? Her response was to say that the warning signs were already there… so what would I expect her to do? She would support my right to refuse surgery but she was very good about not pretending she could offer safety if I went that path, and I realized it was silly to think that she would be able to warn me later that things were not going right if I didn’t accept her warnings before. I had a scheduled section.
      So when I read about people wanting to get rid of vbac bans I wonder what they want. How would they get people to understand that they can’t make it safe? And I know in Canada where I am there are hospitals tat just do not have the resources to keep all the staff available for a predictable emergency, but would any amount of consent protect the hospital from a lawsuit?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      So your friend didn’t have a VBAC supportive hospital nearby. Options:
      1. She could, and apparently decided to, have an HBAC. I presume it went well since you said you were holding your breath and not that she had an HBAC go tragically wrong. I’m glad for her, but really can’t say that I think she made a good decision. I hope she is, at least, a lower risk candidate for VBAC than the woman in this post who would not have been a candidate for VBAC at the world’s most VBAC friendly hospital.
      2. She could have shrugged and said, “Oh, well. A VBAC would be nice, but a baby’s nicer. I’ll just do the c-section.”
      3. She could have rented an apartment in a city large enough to have a VBAC friendly hospital. Unless she lives in Alaska, there would be one within a state or two away at worst. It’s not ideal, but if she’s interested enough in a VBAC to risk her and her baby’s life in an HBAC, surely it’s the less extreme solution.

      I presume you think that the hospital nearest her (3 hours away?) should have offered a VBAC. If they had and she’d died along with the baby from a uterine rupture because the hospital didn’t have and couldn’t support 24 hour a day 7 day a week anesthesia and OB, would you now be saying, “at least they supported her choice” or urging the survivors to sue the hospital for putting your friend at risk?

    • Carolina

      Hush, please go read some of the posts on this site. Go check out the companion site Hurt By Homebirth. This is not a site about bashing loss mothers (or mothers who die because of bad advice, like your friend). Part of the reason for this site is to provide a counterpoint to all the woo pseudoscience out there so women like your friend won’t be injured. Then read some of the comments. There are tons of medical professionals on here who understand pregnancy, labor, and delivery and can explain protocols and policies. It’s really eye opening.

    • Medwife

      Providers don’t have the luxury of saying “Meh” and walking away. We are held responsible when someone goes against our advice and something bad happens, and we need to be able to show that we put across in plain, understandable terms that death and injury are at stake if they go against our advice. We need to be able to show that to our peers, to a jury, and you know what, we need to be able to sleep at night, too.

    • MLE

      I’m assuming you’re long gone Hush, but I still can’t get past your first line. You think that it is a good idea to have doctors with a “MEH” attitude toward their patients? That is what you want to base your life and death decisions on – opinions from your doctor that are conveyed in a similar manner to ice cream preferences, or whether you’d like to go to the park instead of the beach? Really??????

    • Lulz

      *ahem* bullshit. this lady sounds craaaazy

  • The Mole

    Here is her blog post she posted right after sharing this story.
    http://irreverenteloquence.blogspot.com/2014/04/i-eat-raw-cookie-dough.html?m=1

    • Young CC Prof

      She has no idea that every “risky” activity she describes is orders of magnitude safer than “low risk” home birth, which is in turn orders of magnitude safer than HBA2C.

      And raw cookie dough shouldn’t have E. Coli unless you put beef or raw milk into it.

      • Trixie

        I’m guessing here, but probably the risk of not wearing a helmet, not using a car seat, letting your children play unsupervised, and feeding them raw cookie dough daily for 18 years is still lower than the risk of one HBA2C by an order of magnitude.

        • Young CC Prof

          The risk of rupture after 2 c’s is 1.5%, and the risk of baby death following OOH rupture is close to 100%. I don’t know if she had a classic incision with that preemie, in which case her risk of rupture would have been even higher. Let’s say the risk of what happened to her poor child was 1.5%.

          Definitely at least 10X higher than the risk of not buying any car seats, never using a seatbelt AND letting your children play outside on a cul de sac (with or without bike helmets) for their entire childhood.

          The probability of developing at least a mild case of salmonella at some point if you ate raw cookie dough every day for 18 years might be large enough to worry about, but the probability of dying from it is also super-small. Lots of people eat raw or undercooked egg, and in the whole USA in 2010, there were only 68 salmonella-related deaths, some due to chicken meat or other sources rather than eggs.

          So yeah, you’re probably right.

          • Trixie

            By the way, and OT, but my dad thanks you for the info about BMI in men over 6′. He’s been trying not to be “overweight” for a couple years after losing almost 90 lbs. The right calculation means he only has to lose 1 more lb. instead of 8. So, thanks!

          • M B

            I ate raw cookie dough until I knew I was pregnant. I will after I deliver my baby. After all the risks for a healthy woman in a developed country with a good public and free health system are… negible? I know I could get a Salmonella infection, but I am unlikely and even if I get it I am highly unlikely to die or get a long term health condition.

            That small risk during pregnancy did not seem right though. I am now looking after someone else… So I skipped that small risk for my baby and threw what was left after making the cookies.

            Exactly the reason why I chose the hospital with the best NICU in the whole country to give birth over the nicest birthing suite, individual room or anything else. It might sound silly to choose a hospital for a unit I am unlikely to use and would not like to need but I know if needed it will be down the hall.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually, when pregnant, your probability of a bad outcome from Salmonella (hospitalization, organ damage, miscarriage or death) shoots up drastically. So that’s a reasonable policy, eating it except when pregnant.

          • M B

            I did not know that fact. I did not read anything about it either, it just seemed logical…

          • Rabbit

            I had to do some research on the risks of salmonella poisoning for a case a few months ago. Apparently for store-bought eggs, the rate of salmonella is 1 in every 40,000 eggs. And, of course, not every egg with salmonella will actually make someone sick, even if it is eaten raw. If rate of salmonella in eggs were 1.5 in 100, I’d stop eating raw cookie dough too. When I’m pregnant, and wating cookie dough instead of baked cookies, I just make the dough without the eggs. ;)

          • Dr Kitty

            You could also use powdered egg or pasteurised egg whites…

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        She might have meant salmonella, which can get into cookie dough from raw eggs?

        But it doesn’t make me any more confident in her medical skills that she can’t seem to tell the difference between the two or where contamination is likely to come from.

        • Young CC Prof

          She said, “E.Coli and Salmonella.” Which, yeah, implies to me that she doesn’t really know the difference.

          • Trixie

            Salmonella is just a variation of normal.

    • OBPI Mama

      Reading her blog… feel so sad that another family (mother, father, and especially siblings) are grieving a child. Another homebirth death. I wonder what her perspective will be in 2 years, how much it’ll change.

    • RN who has seen too much

      OMG she’s an RN. That’s just embarrassing. How do you not do your own medical research, you know HOW to look at medical studies objectively, how could you not study something as important as risk factors regarding your birth choice? I tried for a vbac with my second son, with MANY caveats, like, hospital birth, spontaneous labor, a 2 hour or less second stage etc. All the things that would make a vbac and surgical risks about even based on the literature. I just cannot imagine choosing the more risky option. Btw, I had a c section at 42 weeks after not going into labor, with NST’s everyday after 40 weeks, and ultrasounds every 3 days. He was a healthy 9lb 10oz boy, with wide shoulders….I am happy for my wonderful c section experience and my healthy now 5 year old. A vaginal delivery would have been nice, but meh, I’d rather have my son.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      She doesn’t gate her stairs, even though all of her kids have fallen down them? WTF is wrong with this woman?

      • Trixie

        I didn’t gate my stairs either, but they’re carpeted, not steep, there’s a landing in the middle, and the baby was traversing them both directions by 9 months or so.

    • Box of Salt

      “it goes against my nature really to worry. I was never a helicopter parent, floating within arms reach of my girls to protect them from harm. . .

      So I packaged up the thought that I should change my style; I pushed aside the concerns for the things in life I cannot always predict or prevent and I have parented on. ”

      Why worry? Let’s just be happy, and pretend our lack of action does not have consequences.

      I can only shake my head in disbelief.

      • anne

        It’s my dream to live my life without consequences. I’d eat cake and cocktails all day long while watching true crime shows on the couch. Unfortunately I’m an adult and parent and have to engage with reality.

      • Amazed

        “Things in life I cannot always predict or prevent.”

        Gag. That’s why others predicted and prevented them for you, moron. Others whose job is to know better.

    • Anj Fabian

      She got one thing right….
      “I’m an invincible control freak”

      I am completely unsurprised by the self identification as a control freak. I’d be equally unsurprised to find out she has an anxiety disorder (including OCD).

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        “Invincible.” I don’t think she understands what that word means.

    • Rabbit

      What gets me about that blog entry is where she says her son was stolen by “a lottery winning chance.” Bullshit. Odds of winning the lottery? 1 in tens of millions. Odds of a rupture with a VBA2C? 1.5 in 100. If those were lottery winning odds, the lines to buy tickets would be a lot longer.

  • Mel

    So, according to mom, the baby was doomed after the rupture, even in a hospital, but may have lived for up to 10 minutes after the rupture.

    One of my cousins went from natural childbirth with a severe shoulder dystocia to delivered CS baby in 4 minutes. Her son is almost 4 years old now and I helped him learn how to climb up a slide this weekend.

    That’s what a hospital can do in an emergency – give your child a chance at life.

    • Allie P

      If you’re in the hospital and have quick surgeons and teams waiting, you have a chance. The little girl on the home blog Young House Love was born after a double whammy of rupture and abruption by stat section. They were lucky they were already in the hospital.

      • fiftyfifty1

        Wasn’t it abruption and cord prolapse?

  • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

    How do they keep upping the horror? How? This is one of the worst ones yet. Lady, if you martyred your child I hope you burn in hell. And I’m an Athiest! No way to know? Totally unpredictable?! Seriously?

    • yugaya

      If this was her choice, and if her story ‘should not be taken as a scare tactic’, perhaps she should also stop using it to promote excuses that homebirth risks are merely akin to playing the lottery and losing in an honest game. She herself cheated intentionally when she rigged the game to her liking and played against the odds of her son’s survival.

  • Mel

    This one actually made me vomit.

    That poor baby boy….

  • Bodnoirbabe

    If I was her husband, I would leave her.

    • ngozi

      Do we know if he was part of the decision? He might have gone along with it.

      • The Mole

        He was not. That was one of the reasons she wanted to stay home as long as she could because he would have agreed to a c-section just like he did with the first and she didn’t want to be “bullied” and have him be against her with the fear tactics the hospital would give.

        • OBPI Mama

          Ouch, ouch, ouch! It is hard when things go wrong. My husband thinks he should have done more to convince me to go to the hospital. Like he failed at his job of protecting me and his baby. Can’t imagine what he’d feel if the baby died. I know it was my decision and burden to bear, but he insists it’s both of ours.I feel so bad for the husband and all the emotions he’s feeling and trying to process.

          • moto_librarian

            But you also didn’t try to have another home birth after what happened to your son, OBPI! You had a shoulder dystocia and consented to c-sections to keep your children safe after your learned what could happen. I have nothing but sympathy for parents who have bad outcomes because they were lied to by NCB. It’s the people who learn NOTHING from prior bad outcomes that I simply cannot understand.

        • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

          I feel so badly for these fathers/husbands. If the situation were reversed – my husband did something knowingly endangering my child’s life, against my wishes, against repeated medical advice, I would leave. Period. I could not spend my life with someone like that.

          • Trixie

            And I would try to take the children with me.

          • Young CC Prof

            I would take them if I had to freaking kidnap them and go into hiding with a traveling carnival.

        • Trixie

          That poor man.
          Also, any guesses whether the “doula” that was attending her at home was actually a lay midwife?

  • No longer drinking the koolaid

    If her uterus did it’s job so well by stopping bleeding, how did she end up with 2 liters in the peritoneal cavity. For a C/S, bleeding in excess of 1 liter is considered a hemorrhage.

  • Gene

    OBs: “Ma’am, your history puts you at high risk for a rupture.”

    Woman: “I’m not high risk! I know my body! I trust birth!”

    NCB community’s greek chorus: “Trust birth! Trust birth!”

    OBs: “We cannot agree to a VBA2C due to your high risk status.”

    Woman: “You are bullies! A healthy baby is not my only goal! Birth experience!!!”

    NCB: “Birth experience! Trust birth!”

    OBs: “You and your baby could die from a rupture.”

    Woman: “Playing the dead baby card! You are just playing scare tactics! You are only surgeons and live to cut”

    NCB: “Dead baby card! Trust birth!”

    OBs/NICU: “We are terribly sorry for your loss.”

    Woman: “No one told me this could happen!!! How were we to know???”

    NCB: “One in a million! Unpredictable! Would have happened in a hospital, too.”

    Repeat…

    • Anj Fabian

      It’s not long enough for an opera, but add a little more and I think we have an aria.

  • Young CC Prof

    She mentions PTSD from her babies’ NICU stays, and I sort of get that. It’s just that some kind of switch broke in her brain, probably in part because she read too much NCB propaganda, and she decided that interventions caused her trauma and emotional pain.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Actually, she mentions PTSD after her second child’s NICU stay. She describes the first (“natural”) birth as “amazing” despite a longer NICU stay for the baby then. Maybe it was just that she couldn’t cope with it all happening a second time, but the contrast between the first and second births kind of triggered my WTF sensors.

      • Anj Fabian

        It was a cookie cutter NCB narrative:

        First birth vaginal, preterm, baby spends weeks in the NICU – perception was overwhelmingly positive.

        Second birth, preterm, c-section due to breech, baby spends weeks in the NICU – perception was overwhelmingly negative.

        Third birth, preterm, full placenta previa, c-section blamed squarely on the previous c-section.
        “Alas, due to csection, a complete centered placenta
        previa.”

    • S

      Honestly it is hard for me to judge this woman because i don’t think she is in her right mind. I can’t see how a person with any reasonable level of emotional functioning could watch two babies lie sick in the NICU, and then watch one baby die, and have this kind of “meh” response.

      She is certainly a danger to her babies, and to other women with the same kind of sick tendency to reinterpret reality. I hope to God she is done reproducing at the very least.

  • Carolina

    I thought “martyr” was classic Dr. Amy snark. I cannot believe the mother is using that term.
    Perhaps it’s because my IVF attempt failed and I’m extra emotional, but I really don’t get people like this who don’t appreciate the precious gift of a term pregnancy. I just can’t understand how healthy baby is not the paramount birthing consideration.

    • ngozi

      Because since we don’t live during the time that mothers and infants routinely die during childbirth, then people take a healthy infant for granted. When you take a healthy infant for granted, then you focus on other things that really aren’t that important.
      A lot of babies who died at birth, were stillborn, or died a couple of days later weren’t even buried separately from their mother. The mother’s name is on the headstone (if one exists) and the baby is in the casket, but there is no mention of the child on the headstone. We may never know how many children died in childbirth.

      • OBPI Mama

        This is different though because she has had unhealthy babies (due to prematurity)… she has seen that a healthy baby isn’t guaranteed with her own eyes…

        • Carolina

          Exactly. She knows the process doesn’t work properly all the time.

        • Mariana Baca

          Maybe she figured an “unhealthy” baby was unavoidable, so went for experience, without realizing there is a third option which is dead baby.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Because since we don’t live during the time that mothers and infants routinely die during childbirth, then people take a healthy infant for granted.

        But this is the part I don’t get. My experience is that that most people DON’T take any of it for granted! Most of the expectant parents I talk to are constantly fretting over every little thing. They avoid soft cheeses and deli meats on the very rare risk of listeria. They are constantly paying attention to baby movement, and panic if things aren’t happening. More than a few get their own dopplers just so they can check a heartbeat every day, and don’t want to wait for their monthly appt.

        That’s a little extreme, but then again, most people I know would do that if they could.

        I just don’t get the attitude of “take the healthy baby for granted,” but then, I’ve never really seen it.

        • ngozi

          The people Doctor Amy writes about seem to think a healthy baby just happens every time, with little to no effort. However, this doesn’t describe the people I know either.

          • OBPI Mama

            Most of us homebirthers have (had for me) the belief that if we did everything “right”, then it results in a healthy baby. Only the bad births were from the “cascades of intervention”.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Only the bad births were from the “cascades of intervention”.

            So is it due to ignorance of history, or just denial?

            What would have been your response to my sister, whose first was stillborn at 41+ weeks? Would you have said that at least she had a vaginal delivery or something?

          • OBPI Mama

            Hmmm… I don’t know… I hadn’t met anyone who had a traumatic “natural” birth or rather would not have even listened had they tried to tell me about it during my “trust birth” phase (“only positive birth stories please” was what I was taught to say). I’m trying to think of what I would have thought about your sister at that time and I really don’t know. I am so sorry for her loss and can’t imagine that heartbreak though.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            (“only positive birth stories please” was what I was taught to say)

            So it sounds pretty much like denial, I guess.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I’m sorry that your IVF attempt failed! Best wishes to you and internet hugs if they’d feel supportive!

      • Carolina

        Thanks. It actually does, given that I’m not comfortable discussing it w/ too many people in real life (and fertility boards are kind of crazy).

        • Jessica S.

          <>

        • Mishimoo

          Truckloads of hugs

    • Houston Mom

      I’m so sorry.

    • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kq

      Eta this got cut off so I’m adding it on top – I am so sorry for your loss.

      I assumed it was her usual calling a spade a spade, but when I read the mother’s own words about NOT only wanting s healthy baby and writing “I martyred my son” and my jaw literally dropped. And people say Dr. Amy is harsh and mean? She’s right on target if not too damn gentle!

    • Trixie

      I’m sorry.

    • Dr Kitty

      I am sorry for your loss.
      Take care of yourself, and don’t hang around here too much if it gives you the mean reds.

  • moto_librarian

    I just don’t understand this willful lack of awareness. Neither of my pregnancies was complicated, but I did have marginal previa both times (that resolved on its own by 28 weeks), and I knew that if the placenta didn’t move, I would happily consent to a c-section. It probably helped that my CNM was very matter-of-fact about it, saying that it would almost certainly move, but if not, to a section we would go. I think that most women worry about their babies throughout pregnancy, even if things are going well. The goal is to get them out, healthy and safely. I simply cannot grasp how you would be willing to risk your child’s life in this way, particularly after having preemies and a near miss due to previa. And what kind of a CNM takes a patient with this history?

    • fiftyfifty1

      ” And what kind of a CNM takes a patient with this history?”
      Why a *homebirth* CNM of course!

  • Paloma

    I seriously do NOT understand why the fixation on having a vaginal birth. The most important thing for a pregnant woman should be the safety of her child. The day I give birth I would do anything to make sure my baby lives, I really don’t care what my experience is like, I will have a whole lifetime to experience my child and being a parent. I just don’t understand why someone would do something like this!!

    • Anj Fabian

      This is a woman who had two NICU babies, not some home birth pro who never had a complicated pregnancy or birth.

      She should know that a healthy baby is not guaranteed.

      • OBPI Mama

        I was thinking similar… once I had an unhealthy baby (due to my own arrogance and stupidity), I realized how precious a healthy baby is. What did I do differently to have a greater chance of a healthy baby for the rest of the babies? Gave birth in a hospital.

        I would do anything to help increase the chance of a healthy baby as most would and she, after having newborns with complications, did the opposite. I think there is a lot of brainwashing, but most of us who have got slapped in the face with reality wised up. What made her not do that?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        You’d think that someone who was fortunate to dodge a bullet would try not to stand in front of the gun again.

      • Dr Kitty

        It sounds like her second child had a much rockier NICU course than her first, despite being 34w instead of 31.5w.

        From what I can gather, her take seems to be that the CS broke her second baby.

        My take would be that gestation is not the be all and end all, and individual babies’ can have unpredictable or stormy courses in NICU.

  • KarenJJ

    Summit fever.

    The goal becomes more important then anything else, including your (or in this case your child’s) life.

    • KarenJJ

      “”Summit fever had developed in that group,” he said. “There was a chemistry in there that meant they were going for the summit no matter what … They were all driving each other on. These people came together and because of the place and the atmosphere and their personalities, they became blinkered and simply focused on the top. There was no careful awareness in the group and the most dangerous thing about groups is that everyone hands over responsibility for themselves to someone else … It means that no one is taking responsibility. There can be a false sense of strength in numbers, but it doesn’t matter how big your group is – you can have 1,000 people and the mountain could still kill them all.””

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/summit-fever-killed-hargreaves-1597490.html
      I think there’s a similar mentality between some homebirth mums and their midwives.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Wow, that sounds just like a HB disaster story, doesn’t it?

        I wonder, were they all accusing Hilary of playing the “dead climber” card?

        Second thing: I’ve mentioned it before, at least in terms of Everest, climbers are as likely to die on their way down as they are on the way up. Then again, it’s for reasons like this – summitting 8000 m at 6 pm? That’s just stupid.

        I know on Everest, the general rule is that you need to summit in the am. Krackaur’s book talks about that, how the guide in their group (who ended up dying, as well) let members summit as late as 4 pm. They should have been well on their way back down by then.

        • fiftyfifty1

          Summitting Mount Everest at 4pm is just a variation of normal.

          • Young CC Prof

            Trust mountains. They are your friends and like you!

          • Trixie

            Mountains are natural!

  • S Cook

    Call me crazy, but the only birth experience I’m interested in is a live baby coming home.

    • ngozi

      I am all for having a great birth experience, because I have experienced some pretty crappy things happen at my hospital births. But by the time things get as serious as they did in this woman’s case, nurses and doctors are usually all about business and not busy acting an ass. I just can’t believe there are that many doctors and nurses whose goal in life is to make sure laboring mothers have a horrible experience.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        I like the plane flight comparison. If you’ve got a plane that’s inspected regularly and is in good mechanical shape, a competent pilot, and a good emergency plan, then you can worry about things like whether the seats are wide enough and how good the in flight entertainment system is. But if you drop maintenance or hire a pilot with no experience except maybe playing flight simulator in order to pay for a fancier in flight entertainment system something’s going to go badly wrong, very soon.

  • Are you nuts

    Dear Midwives,
    THIS is why we don’t trust you to risk patients out of your homebirth practice.
    Signed,
    Are you f-ing nuts

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’ve said something like this before:

      “Studies have shown that homebirth can be as safe as hospital for low risk pregnancies in women who have a proven record of successful deliveries. Therefore….this.”

  • Anj Fabian

    Big question:

    Who is the CNM who took this client for a home birth?

    This woman didn’t have one single uncomplicated pregnancy.
    She was three for three for preterm labor. It’s likely that all three of her babies required NICU care for issues related to prematurity. (She says two were and the third we don’t know.) From what I can tell, women with this record should be monitored very closely for preterm labor in order to promote the longest gestation possible.

    How far along was she with this pregnancy?
    How much support was required to get her this far?

    She threw it all away for her vaginal birth – which she didn’t get. She also thinks that an abdomen filled with blood and needing a transfusion was a sign that her uterus stopped bleeding.

    Uh, no. That’s a sign her uterus was gushing blood. Her going into shock at home? Also a sign of significant blood loss. Her uterus IS a lemon.

    • Anj Fabian

      We need a post:
      Ten Signs That Your Body Is A Lemon

      We should also graciously extend an invitation to Ina May Gaskin to respond.

    • Trixie

      Don’t know for sure (and I’m not even in the group where this woman wrote these things), but there are a couple CNMs and a CPM in her friends list.

  • Trixie

    It gets worse. This mother is an RN herself.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Ok, any sympathy I had just evaporated. Sorry, but talk about people who should know better!

    • Anj Fabian

      Which state does she practice in? I don’t want her near me or mine!

      • Trixie

        Minnesota.

    • OBPI Mama

      A woman I know of is also an RN and decided to have a homebirth… her baby died (transfer took too long after heart decels were detected at home). The next time she was in a hospital and had a healthy baby. It is hard to wrap my mind around seeing and experiencing nature at it’s worst and then trusting it.

      • ngozi

        NCBers make transfers sound so easy.

    • yugaya

      How is that possible? There was a supposed RN posting in one of the groups and I was in horror at the childlike reasoning and language competence – I would expect formal education and professional jargon to leave at least some trace in the way they speak about things that are of their professional interest, like medical situations involving birth. Instead, these women just sound like they have never spent a day of their lives using language as medical professionals.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Ok, I’m sorry, but I’ve reached the limits of my understanding. What did this woman expect to get out of this? I’ve never had a vaginal delivery, but most women I’ve talked to who have have NOT described it as “amazing” or even pleasant. She risked her baby’s life–and her own life–for the right to experience unnecessary pain and trauma? I just don’t get it. What is there about the “natural birth experience” that makes it worth this risk?

    • Carrie Looney

      I’ve had friends and co-workers who had uncomplicated vaginal births, and the most they say about the actual process is some variant on ‘it was no big deal’ or ‘not too bad’ (although one of them compared it recently to the experience of having a tooth break and expose a nerve). I tend to hear these comments a few years down the line, as the first few years are usually swallowed up with ‘I haz baby! Look at my baby!’ Which does seem to be the proper focus.

      • AmyP

        I’ve had three successful vaginal deliveries. Having a nice, roomy pelvis is not a personal achievement of mine.

        • ngozi

          I have had 5 successful vaginal pregnancies. Two of them I had no pain meds at all. I don’t randomly poop or pee my pants. Still don’t think I deserve a gold star.

        • Gene

          Of all the things I am proud of in this life, my children are on the list but the way they arrived is not (as it doesn’t matter how they got here, just that they are).

    • R T

      I spoke to a woman yesterday who had a unmedicated, natural hospital birth with a doula and CNM. She said she experienced “multiple, 4th degree tears” and required a blood transfusion when she passed out on her first attempt to walk to the bathroom after delivery! I have never met someone who was injuried to that degree by a vaginally birth before! Seven years later she had a scheduled csection for her second child. She said it was such a traumatic first birth it took her that long to want to get pregnant again! I didn’t even know what to say! I just felt sick to my stomach hearing her story! I would like to have a VBAC if I ever have another child, but her story would not be a better experience than my csection was that’s for sure!

  • Trixie

    Horrifying. Especially since she seems to still be an HBAC advocate.

  • Amy M

    Oh god that is awful. I only hope she is in denial as some form of self-protection, like it would break her mind to accept that she is pretty much completely responsible for this catastrophe. That poor baby. I wonder how her spouse feels about it.