Jill Duggar Dillard risks her baby’s life at homebirth

Seaton Road Accident

Jill Duggar Dillard is giving us all a lesson in how planning a homebirth is like risking your baby’s life by not buckling him into a carseat.

The odds are in her favor that everything will turn out fine, but, of course, the odds would be in her favor that not buckling him into a carseat would turn out fine. That doesn’t make either one a good idea.

Dillard, one of the 19 and counting Duggar children, is a birth junkie.

Back a few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend 12 weeks of childbirth classes with my 14-year-old friend, who was a single mom. Through these classes, I learned how to coach her during the birth of her child. Although I had attended two of my siblings’ births, being able to work as an active part of my friend’s birth made me interested in learning more. I became friends with a doula/labor coach who worked in the area, and started going to home and hospital births with her. Soon, I became her assistant, and through that, I came into contact with other local midwives. Over the course of the next several years, these midwives would call on me periodically for help at home births.

Now Jill is studying to be a pretend “midwife” (CPM) and will be attended by an equally poorly educated, poorly trained pretend “midwife.”

What’s the difference between a CPM (certified professional midwife) and a real midwife? The CPM credential was made up by a bunch of women who wanted to be midwives but couldn’t be bothered to meet the internationally accepted requirements for midwifery. Real midwives, like those in the Netherlands, the UK, Canada, Australia and the US, must have a minimum of a university degree in midwifery. US certified nurse midwives (CNM) must have a nursing degree plus a masters in midwifery, making them the most highly educated midwives in the world. In contrast, CPMs are the least educated midwives in the industrialized world. They are required to have only a high school diploma, a course of unmonitored self-study that can be completed at home, and attend only 40 births (approximately the same number that I attended in my first week of residency training).

Jill could have trained to be a real midwife, but that involves college, and that, apparently was just too hard.

I had been considering attending nursing school for a while, but the timing of it all wasn’t working out … Eventually, through my work with the local midwives, the door opened for me to enter into a distance-learning midwifery training program in Texas. This program, after about 3 1/2 years of schooling, would give me the education I need to become a licensed, Certified Professional Midwife (CPM).

An “education” that is considered to be so poor that is unacceptable in the Netherlands, the UK, Canada and Australia. The training is as deficient as the education. All other midwives train within hospitals to learn to recognize, manage and prevent life threatening obstetrical complications. CPMs don’t bother with any of that because they are self-proclaimed “experts in normal birth,” which is about as useful a pretend meteorologist who is an expert in sunny weather and must call a real meteorologist to figure out if it might rain.

What do CPMs do when a life threatening complication occurs at homebirth?

They transfer the mother to the hospital where there are real medical professionals with the equipment and expertise to save lives. That, of course, is like transferring your baby to the hospital after the car crash that ejected the baby through the windshield because you couldn’t be bothered to buckle him into a carseat. We don’t think much of mothers who can’t be bothered to buckle their babies into carseats. That’s negligent or crazy or both. Now consider that the chance of a baby dying in childbirth is actually HIGHER than the chance of the same baby dying in a car accident.

Dillard is now nearly 2 weeks past her due date. We know that with every day that passes, the risk of stillbirth goes up. That’s because the placenta often has trouble meeting the oxygen and nutritional needs of a baby growing beyond full term. The baby could simply die spontaneously, or could die during labor, because contractions can stress a healthy baby, let alone one with a failing placenta. Insisting on homebirth at this point is like driving with a baby unbuckled, on an icy road, knowing that the road will get icier still with each passing day.

We all know mothers who have done that and everything has turned out fine. That’s why Jill Duggar Dillard’s son is likely to be fine, too, even though she is casually risking his life at homebirth.

  • AA

    Jessa Duggar (not Jill as mentioned in this article) was transferred to the hospital for hemorrhage after a planned homebirth. Jessa required a blood transfusion in the hospital. Jessa has recently had her second child, and again, had a planned homebirth.

    http://people.com/tv/jessa-duggar-seewald-relaxed-delivery-baby-number-2-henry-wilberforce-seewald/

  • Realitybites100

    She cannot attend college. Her family rules.
    If anything she should be a doula. No need to pretend to be a midwife when plenty of people would hire her as a doula just to be near her celebrity. She would be highly in demand. Duggars and babies are seen as hand in hand.

    on another note..i am note sure if Jill was stunt birthing to the max or if the articles have been grossly amplified. Her social media did not match her timeline. I wonder if all this drama is just to make excuses to the HB communiyy on why she had the C-section. You know they arent “allowed” un;ess circumstances are mega dramatic.

    • Araebo

      The preview for the birth episode is out and it totally contradicts what she has been saying. Nearly 50 hours at home, not twenty. She didn’t go to the hospital until 50 hours after her water broke even though she saw meconium. Not sure when she tested positive for strep B but it looks like there were no iv antibiotics at the house based on the preview anyway. FIFTY hours after her water broke and strep B positive followed by another twenty st the hospital before the c-section.

      Not to mention that the time line she talks about in interviews doesn’t match the episode.

      http://www.ibtimes.com/19-kids-counting-sneak-peek-jill-duggar-goes-labor-reveals-why-she-had-baby-israel-1901253

  • Somewhereinthemiddle

    I immediately thought of this post when I saw this on FB, lol! Looks like there will be more Duggar baby drama since another one of the Duggar kids is pregnant.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/jessa-duggar-seewald-is-pregnant/ar-AAbsEVB

  • holly patterson

    I am furious that she waited two weeks, I thought a few days maybe a week but two is terrible.
    That baby is blessed to be alive and thank God He didn’t die.
    I am against home births because I look at history and it tells me women who died in child birth before modern Technology was high,
    Also losing babies was very high,
    This is not the cause thanks to skilled doctors and a team of nurses that are the experts.
    Yes women still die, but it’s really rare,
    Doming it old school is ignoring history and having the baby natural is putting yourself and your baby at risk.
    Some women have a easy delivery others more risky. But I would never ever take a chance, sorry Ricky Lake, home birth doesn’t work.

  • Bugsy

    People magazine released more information on Jill’s c-section yesterday. (My apologies if someone’s already posted this!)

    -70-hr labor
    -Strep B positive w/ IV antibiotics
    -Meconium in fluid
    -Baby transverse breech
    -Baby not descended
    -Irregular fetal heart rates

    http://www.people.com/article/19-kids-counting-jill-derick-dillard-introduce-baby-israel?xid=socialflow_twitter_peoplemag

  • anonymous
    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Wow, how can the ACNM read that document and still consider the CPMs to be “sisters”?

  • Andy

    Listen all pregnant women, your bodies are stupid and incapable of giving birth. Evolution got it wrong and you’re the only mammal on Earth who cannot give birth to her offspring without the safety of a hospital, its fancy equipment and drugs. You will induce at 40 weeks even though there is absolutely no scientific research to support that a vital organ for life such as the placenta begins to malfunction starting at 40 weeks and therefore you’re purposely risking your baby’s life. Induce, induce, induce even if your body isn’t ready! Then you will need an epidural because your artificial contractions are too much to cope with and your very instincts to move and change positions have been stripped away from you. Then you will “fail to progress” , your baby will get stressed and heart rate will begin to plummet and then infallible Dr. Amy will come save your baby’s life with an emergency c-section and tell you “see aren’t you glad you were in a hospital so I could save your baby’s life” because remember your body is stupid and don’t you dare think you can have a full-term baby without a hospital.

    Yes things can go wrong! That’s why there are hospitals for when things go wrong not to pretend “save” babies when it’s your medical interventions causing the MOST harm! I would never hire you as my provider.

    • Kq

      Wow, I just got up and already I’ve seen the most ignorant comment of the day. Your ridiculous claims are debunked all over this site.

    • Montserrat Blanco

      Evolution did not get it wrong. Evolution does not care about the survival of a particular woman and a particular baby. That is why a lot of mammals die in childbirth but the species continue to be alive. Nature does not care about a particular mother and baby too. Nature cares a lot about… Pretty much everything under the sun, incluiding vultures. Excuse me for not desiring to be vulture food and dying in childbirth.

      • sdsures

        For some reason this reminds me of wildebeest in Africa. When they give birth, the new calf must be able to get up and run within 10 minutes or so of birth, or else, it gets to be a tasty snack. In other words, Nature doesn’t care.

      • SporkParade

        Evolution is just throwing genetic peas at the wall to see what sticks. I read a really depressing article on Cracked today. Apparently, there is a species of coots (those are birds) that will lay, like, 10 eggs, and then they will gradually decide over and over again who is the runt of the litter and cast them out to starve until only 2-3 chicks remain.

    • fiftyfifty1

      Studies show that inducing at 40 weeks rather than waiting DECREASES stillbirth, C-section rate and need for NICU. You have no idea what you are talking about.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “Evolution got it wrong and you’re the only mammal on Earth who cannot give birth to her offspring without the safety of a hospital, its fancy equipment and drugs. ”

      Evolution can’t work without Natural Selection. Natural Selection involves making more offspring than a species needs, and killing off the unfit or unlucky. In places without modern obstetrics, even in this day and age, 1 out of every 7 women dies in childbirth. At least 1 in 4 babies doesn’t live to see one month of age. If you want those odds for yourself and your loved ones, be my guest.

    • Paloma

      1º – Evolution doesn’t get things right or wrong. It doesn’t PLAN anything at all!! Certain mutations cause evolutionary advantages in a given situation and those same advantages can become disadvantages if the situation changes. And it is completely RANDOM. So really, you could trust chance and hope for the best, or you can actually hire a person who is trained, will plan what is best for you and your baby and try like hell to keep your child safe.
      2º – Yes, your body IS stupid, because it just knows how to solve things one way. That may cause to compensate a defect or make it worse, depending on the situation. For example, if blood pressure descends, your kidney compensates for the lack of blood supply by retaining fluid, so blood pressure goes back up. If you are bleeding, that helps compensate and keeps you alive. If you have heart failure, your heart doesn’t pump enough blood and blood pressure drops, so retaining fluid creates a buildup, putting a bigger strain on the heart, that fails even worse and the pressure keeps dropping, and it becomes a vicious cycle that eventually leads to death. If I went into heart failure I wouldn’t trust my body to solve the problem because evolution had to get right the organ that keeps me alive. The same applies to any other organ, including the uterus and the placenta.
      3º- I always like to illustrate with my grandmothers story. She was (still is, now is retired) a midwife, and when she practiced hospital births were not the norm in my country. She went from house to house on her own and saw many children and many mothers die despite her best efforts. She insisted to give birth in a hospital, with an OB and closely monitored, even though both of her sisters were midwives too. It says a lot that she knew the risk 50 years ago. That risk hasn’t decreased, it has gone up as obstetrics has evolved and morbidity and mortality keep getting lower in hospital settings.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Humans are by no means unique in having problems with reproduction. What is unique about humans* is that we have the ability to bypass our reproductive abilities using technology. Technology is, essentially, human’s evolutionary adaptation. And a highly successful adaptation it’s been. What kind of fools would we be to ignore it?

      *And any animals that we choose to share this technology with. Bulldogs, for example, usually give birth by c-section.

      • Mishimoo

        Chihuahuas, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and Corgis pretty commonly have caesareans too (if their owner/breeder cares, that is).

        My very own Hailie (weimaraner), had one for failure-to-progress, and a successful but unintentional HBAC.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          My chihuahua-who-know-what mix got a TAH/BSO instead. I didn’t realize that chihuahuas had so much trouble with delivery. Makes the excess of chihuahuas in shelters seem all the more disturbing.

          • Mishimoo

            It really does! Also blows the idea that “Your body won’t grow a baby that’s too big to birth.” right out of the water because that’s what happens fairly, regardless of species.

      • D/

        I actually began to develop my initial NICU nurse skills as a vet tech at those c-sections. Puppy assessments to divide into piles … the squeakers, the squeak-if-you-make-mes, and the please-save-me-if-you-cans and then get to work. Honestly it seemed like a treat to just have one baby to figure out once I got to the NICU.

        I already had the heart of a lactation consultant then too. I’d be the one back in the kennel well after time to close up trying to get the runt nursing … and was surprisingly a decent (non-human) LC even then 😉

        Decades ago and I still miss that job!

        • toni

          this is my favourite comment today. how sweet!

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      absolutely no scientific research to support that a vital organ for life such as the placenta begins to malfunction starting at 40 weeks

      Classic mansplaining. This claim is presented entirely without evidence, despite being contrary to numerous publications on the risk of IUFD and neonatal mortality. We’re supposed to just accept it because a person with a male nym presented it.

      Sorry, cupcake, but the risk of neonatal mortality rises after 40 weeks gestation. By 46-47 weeks* the risk of neonatal mortality is doubled. This does not count the well known risks of intrauterine fetal demise, aka stillbirth. Numbers derived from the CDC Wonder website, calculated using no restrictions, display by gestational age.

      *Who the hell goes 47 weeks? Over 30,000 people in 2007-12 per the CDC.

    • momofone

      Bullshit. My son’s placenta was almost completely calcified at 38 weeks. Thank goodness I didn’t hire you as my provider.

    • Fallow

      I was induced for pre-eclampsia/HELLP, and that Pitocin didn’t cause me anything I’d consider unusual pain. Certainly not “too much to cope with”. It was about what I expected, honestly. Whoops!

      Severe pre-eclampsia and preterm labor run in my family. My grandmother and great-grandmother had some dangerous pregnancies, and some dead babies. My grandmother was the only surviving child of my great-grandparents. My grandmother also got sterilized as a young woman to prevent any future pregnancies from killing her. My uncle was a preemie in the 1950s, on top of all that! Sounds like evolution was doing a swell job, right? Sure, my great-grandmother had to bury numerous dead children before one of them stuck. But at least it was all natural!

      You ought to look up how
      hyenas give birth, if you’re so assured that evolution has good
      intentions (or any intentions). You know that hyenas are mammals, right? So, what the heck did hyenas do to deserve
      their birth process?

      You NCB people really sound like cult members, though. You recite BOBB like it’s scripture. Your diatribes are nearly word-for-word interchangeable. If you crossed your rhetoric with Scientology (which, of course, is on everyone’s mind lately), I bet you’d call non-NCB folks “SPs”.

      • Somewhereinthemiddle

        I got curious about the hyena, googled and am sorry I did, lol. The thought of giving birth through pseudo penis is cringe worthy in addition to the obviously dangerous part. Yikes!

        • They mate through it also. I read a web comic called “Carry On”, about anthropomorphic hyenas. A lead character described her reproductive tract as being shaped like a saxophone. Her mother claimed you don’t know about motherhood until you’ve pushed a bowling ball through a P-trap.

          OW!

      • demodocus’ spouse

        My grandma had several children in the late 30s and early 40s. None of them lived; Dad’s adopted.

    • Nick Sanders

      “Evolution got it wrong and you’re the only mammal on Earth who cannot give birth to her offspring without the safety of a hospital,”

      Um, actually, yes.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstetrical_dilemma
      http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/why-is-human-childbirth-so-painful/

      • toni

        ‘The prolonged period of breastfeeding needed by a human baby is the most energetically demanding period of a female’s life. A mother may even allocate her own brain during pregnancy, losing some 4 percent of its volume, to meet the energetic demands of her baby’s brain.’ I can believe that!! I’ve left the stove on and forgotten about it 3 times this week.. destroying a non-stick pan each time. I only do this when I’m pregnant

    • Who?

      Hi Andy, you seem to have a lot of feelings there, directed variously at pregnant women, Dr T, and the medical profession.

      I don’t think it is helpful to cast women as victims as you do, if they choose professional care during their pregnancies and deliveries.

      My one question though: how does anyone know when something is going wrong unless a pregnancy and labour is being monitored and supervised? Or to put it another way, do you wait for a catastrophe like a serious bleed or a baby stuck in the birth canal before calling for help?

    • Dr Kitty

      Andy,
      I have Spina Bifida Occulta (meaning bits of my backbone didn’t form properly, and didn’t properly protect my spinal cord), several sacralised vertebrae (meaning that bits of my backbone are attached to my pelvis when they shouldn’t be) and a pelvis that is best described as “wonky”.
      My Xrays look like someone has thrown a Meccano set in there.
      Of course, because modern medical treatment means that I can walk, and have normal bowel and bladder function, you wouldn’t know that to look at me.

      I’m one of the people who would be on the discard pile if natural selection was allowed to work unhindered by medicine and technology.
      I think that the fact I’m an intelligent, happy and productive member of society, who has saved lives in my day job shows that survival of the fittest is quite relative.

      Damn skippy I’m going to take a CSection over taking my chances that my body, which doesn’t know how to make symmetrical pubic rami and or ilia, or a spine with the components in the right places, will know how to deliver a baby.

      You assume that everyone has a healthy body, a functioning placenta and a healthy, typically formed baby that can tolerate labour.
      Your assumptions are wrong.

      They’re also ableist, and pretty insulting both to those of us who were made rather imperfectly and are incapable of giving birth and to the people who help us to have babies anyway.

    • FEDUP MD

      Umm, organs vital to life can fail at any time. Come to the hospital with me and see some kids with end stage renal, heart, or lung disease. Evolution doesn’t care, and nature can be pretty cruel.

    • demodocus’ spouse

      Pff. I saw an ob for my prenatal care, had great blood pressure all pregnancy, actually gained only my child’s weight, went into spontaneous labor at 40 +5, was as calm as at a quilt guild meeting, and preceeded to develop pre-eclampsia 4 hours into labor *before* I got any medications. Also, I haven’t been able to sneeze without peeing since 7 months along and I’m ever so slightly incontinent. But my body was broken because I eventually got an epidural? Um, no..
      By the way, PBS showed a program on animal reproduction last summer, and the elephant they were profiling in one program died a couple weeks after she gave birth due to complications.
      PS, you did notice Dr. Tuteur is retired, yes? She won’t be at anyone’s delivery any time soon, except perhaps at a grandchild’s birth. I’ll take my own (certainly fallible, since he’s human) Dr. Escabedo, thanks. Especially when there’s a NICU down the hall.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        By the way, PBS showed a program on animal reproduction last summer, and the elephant they were profiling in one program died a couple weeks after she gave birth due to complications.

        “Sex in the Wild”

        A great show.

        There was another episode where an orangutan bonded immediately with her c-section baby, despite having GA.

        • demodocus’ spouse

          That’s the one; all I could think of was “Born in the Wild” but that’s a different show

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            My favorite one was on dolphins. I never knew how they did it.

            And considering that they only do it about 5 seconds, it makes me feel like a stud.

    • Daleth

      Uh… how does induction at 40 weeks risk a baby’s life?

      That’s a rhetorical question.

    • Cobalt

      People with these sorts of beliefs shouldn’t be allowed to use chairs. Perfectly functioning legs were made for standing and walking, and a chair is but the beginning of the cascade of sitterventions and before you know it you’ll end up with a nice couch set, complete with matching end tables.

      Tortoises, after all, NEVER use chairs, and their life expectancy is much longer than ours.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        And there is evidence that sitting for long periods of time is bad for your health. Seriously. Chairs are an evil intervention and unnatural! If you must sit, use a rock. Much healthier.

        • Cobalt

          And if you must leave your home, the only suitable solution is to bring your carefully selected, all natural, hand hewn, organically grown, runically mossed rock with you, so as to avoid contact with common benches. How to carry the rock? Why, in a sling, of course!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I love the image I get from this. A rock carefully cuddled in a sling…

          • D/

            I need a new image. When the grand baby was a little sling lump, a teenager came over in a restaurant and left my daughter completely bewildered by asking ‘Is that a chinchilla?’ (Evidently that’s a thing for a pet outing around us?)

            Of course that question pops into my head now whenever I run into a well disguised little sling rider … along with inappropriate ‘WTH’s your problem’ snickering if I’m not very careful.

    • DaisyGrrl

      It’s kitten season in much of North America. A rescue I follow on Facebook had this rather sad story last week:

      ” On Saturday she went into labor and clearly did not know what was happening. She had her first kitten while she was standing on a cat tree; her second 2 hours later was found on the floor; a third was stillborn. She rejected all of them and was terrified about what was going on. A forth was born 8 hours later and she was clearly having difficulty, lots of bleeding. (yes, she and kittens were getting assistance); a fifth had to delivered for her as she was standing up and could not get it out; ditto for the sixth.”

      The cat subsequently hemorrhaged and required emergency veterinary care. She survived, and the rescue will make sure she never has another experience like that again (hooray for spay!). Unfortunately, another of her kittens has since died. If you have any spare time to give, volunteer to help nurse some kittens this year. For some strange reason, birth doesn’t always go smoothly and intervention is needed to save these babies.

      All this to say I’m glad I’m a human living in a resource-rich country. I get to give birth in a hospital with people watching over my safety, standing by to intervene if necessary. I bet the cat in my story would feel the same way if she could.

    • MaineJen

      That must be why my great-grandmother lost 4 of her nine children either during or shortly after her all-natural home births. No one told her, apparently, that it was supposed to be a perfect process that your body can handle naturally 99.999% of the time. Maybe the problem was that The Business of Being Born hadn’t been released yet, so she didn’t know how lucky she was to be avoiding all the modern interventions that could have saved her children’s lives.

      I would choose my two intervention-full hospital births, resulting in two healthy live babies and one still-living mother, over nine home births with no intervention where almost half of the babies ended up dead. Wouldn’t you?

  • I wonder if a big part of her taking a correspondence course and attending births with other women isn’t because her family won’t permit her to go to college and become a CNM or Ob/Gyn. This might be the closest she can get to a career that gives her any sort of autonomy, independence, and personal income.

    • Daleth

      Yeah, that makes sense. How sad.

  • Dea

    Poor Jill… I truly think she is a well intentioned girl, with good character. But I keep asking myself if she really knew what she was putting herself and her baby into by deciding to have a home birth. Midwifes usually are very sweet, receptive and armed with the most beautiful and convincing arguments, leding people to believe that home birth a magical experience and just as safe as a hospital birth. Giving the fact that Jill is a christian, I wonder if she has ever thought about the feminism influences on home birth (“my body, my choice, my birth”, “empowering women” etc). She would be surprised to discover that most of the home birth support comes from ideologies rather than from evidences (and yet, homebirth advocates LOVE to talk about evidences, numbers etc). I really admire her entire family and I think that protecting kids from certain things is important, but I also think that Jim Bob and Michelle shouldn’t impose so many restrictions when it comes to their kids education. I believe that her parents restrictions may have greatly influenced her choice for an “easier” way of delivering babies.

  • D/

    Related to NARM neonatal resuscitation education requirements:

    Just saw an interesting fb post by a NARM board member that they have received notice from AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) that ‘Helping Babies Breathe’, a **ventilation only** neonatal resuscitation curriculum utilized in the resource-limited conditions of less developed countries, was not intended or approved for use in the US. NARM will be removing HBB as an option for neonatal resuscitation training and will have to require NRP certification/re-certification.

    • Karen in SC

      How can lay midwives be certified to do a procedure that requires a team and special equipment?

      • D/

        Technically speaking NRP is not a certification course and completion of the program does not imply that an individual has the competence to perform neonatal resuscitation. Each hospital (or in the case of CPMs, I suppose NARM?) is responsible for determining the level of competence and qualifications required for assuming clinical responsibility for neonatal resuscitation.

        Anyone can take an NRP course, but the target audience is those who care for newborns at the time of delivery. Depending on job responsibilities participants may complete Basic (non-intubated ventilations and chest compressions) or Advanced (intubation, umbilical line placement, emergency medication administration, etc) courses. With Basic providers being, at best, only a stop gap measure until the baby can get to the Advanced NRP team.

        I’ve been pretty flabbergasted to learn of the prevalence of mouth-to-mouth as a first choice ventilation method for home birth MWs, but I’m not even sure what adjective adequately describes them using the same training protocols intended for places like rural India and Africa here in the US. I’m glad AAP called them out on it.

  • Poogles

    Interesting tidbit: our CPM commenter, Heather Rische, is a fan of “From Calling to Courtroom”. I know you are all just shocked.

    “On 6/12/2004 Heather Rische, a midwife in New Mexico,
    wrote:
    “Thank you for doing this work. As I begin my homebirth practice, I
    feel more and more trepidation about the vulnerability of my position. I look
    forward to using this resource to move ahead in my practice with the best
    protective measures in place.””

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      She just wants to use Birth Art to illustrate it….

    • Amy

      And Raymond Zakhari is a fan of all manner of paranoid right-wing conspiracy theorists, including many climate change deniers. His education, about which he brags on his website, is cobbled together from a variety of sources. His website emphasizes bedside manner over clinical competence. Shocking, I know.

    • momofone

      “Best protective measures” for her, that is.

  • Nan

    This rant is so full of ignorant and uneducated assumptions why bother with the US horrible hospital birth facts, high maternal death rates and despicable first day infant mortality rates. Go read a book before you spew nonsense

    • Who?

      Hi Nan, so glad a visitor is engaging with some actual responses, I’m sure everyone here would be delighted to be educated. Please pass on the bases for your assertions about ‘hospital birth facts’ and death rates for mums and babies.

  • Me24u

    First child was born with a midwife seven miles down a country road in the mountains a good hour from a hospital. A few years later that marriage ended when she stepped out on me. Fortunately everything went O.K. with the birth. Eventually I met and married a person Ive been married to for 30 years and we have two of our own and raised the other one also. My second wife was a level III Neo Natal R.N. and after I learned why a hospital is important and what can happen, Im a believer in having your baby in a hospital,period. The standard line that we can position you in a safe way if something bad happens and drive to the hospital is a myth.

  • pooOnyou

    sounds like this was written by a menopausal bitch.. pure and simple.. a total asshole..

    • Stacy48918

      And your reply wasn’t?

      • Who?

        Always with the scatological (sp?, where is Jennifer when we need her?) references.

        • Cobalt

          Hopefully, reviewing her 119 references to see if any of them are credible, relevant, and or current.

          If she actually checks them out, she *might* learn something.

          • Who?

            I really hope you are right.

    • moto_librarian

      Yawn. If you can’t come up with anything other than an ad hominem, go away. You are boring.

      • Bombshellrisa

        Yeah, at least be willing to take issue with the facts as they are presented. Name calling is so kindergarten

    • SporkParade

      Because nothing says “I respect women” like saying that their bodily functions make their thoughts unworthy of being taken seriously.

      • Medwife

        Women should never feed into that. When you’re childbearing age, it’s PMS, or pregnancy. Once you’re past that, it’s menopause. There is never a point in a woman’s adult life where she can’t be blown off “because hormones”.

        • SuperGDZ

          While ironically men are far more influenced by their hormones on a day to day basis.

    • Medwife

      Ooo. Menstruating, are we?

  • KBCme

    I saw the birth announcement. Baby was born on MOnday. From the photo that was sent out with the birth announcement, it looks like Jill did end up having the baby in the hospital. No word if she started there or ended up there due to problems. Baby was 9lb 10 oz.

  • RJ

    Choosing to have a Homebirth is a perfectly responsible
    Health care decision and instead of shaming women,
    Maybe we ought to support women to do what they think is
    Best without judgement. Yes things can go wrong
    At home, but that is true for the hospital
    As well. Midwives have been helping women deliver
    Babies since our beginnings and are the original birth keepers.
    Yes thank God for hospitals, Dr’s, cesarians etc.. Nobody is disputing
    that. But let’s not act like women and midwives are incompetent Bc
    if they support home birth. The ideal model of care should be
    Mothers,Midwives and Dr.’s working together.

    • Nick Sanders

      “Yes things can go wrong
      At home, but that is true for the hospital”

      But what are the relative odds? And which is better equipped to do something meaningful when it happens?

      And midwives aren’t incompetent because they support home birth; supporting home birth is a symptom of their incompetence. Seriously read some more of this blog to see why they are so reviled.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Yes things can go wrongAt home, but that is true for the hospital

      And sober people die in car accidents, even when they are wearing seatbelts. That doesn’t make driving drunk without a seat belt a responsible choice.

    • Daleth

      What makes it “perfectly responsible”?

      I guess what I have trouble with, logically, is that even low-risk home birth is almost five times more likely to end with a dead baby than hospital birth, and something like 18 times more likely to end with a brain-damaged baby.

      So, given those problematic facts, why do you think it is “perfectly responsible”?

    • NoLongerCrunching

      I see a lot of lip service to doctors saving lives, but mostly a lot of disparagement of them (scalpel-happy, too impatient for moms to deliver, making decisions based on liability, money, or free gifts from formula companies, not familiar with natural birth, etc). One needs to give respect to get respect.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      First off, I love the blank verse format. Second, things can go wrong at a hospital. Things can even go wrong because you were at a hospital. However, things are about 3-4x more likely to go wrong because you were at home with an incompetent or no attendant. That’s why I oppose home birth, or, rather, advocating home birth via deceptive means. If a woman wants to give birth at home and does so knowing the risks, that’s her decision. If she agrees to a home birth because someone lied to her and told her that it was perfectly safe, as safe as or safer than a hospital, that’s a completely different thing. Full disclosure and true informed consent are all I ask of home birth advocates.

    • sdsures

      “Midwives have been helping women deliverBabies since our beginnings and are the original birth keepers.”

      That explains their horrifically high infant mortality rate.

  • EllenL
    • Stacy48918

      Getting home safely after driving drunk = WIN!

      Doesn’t mean it was a good idea.

      • EllenL

        I totally agree. I could have added “safe setting” to the list. For me, that goes without saying.

        I am happy for this couple. They apparently made a mature decision in moving the birth to a hospital.

        • Stacy48918

          Love that they “turned to the Bible”…too little too late I guess.

          • EllenL

            I really hope that this is a learning experience for Jill and for the whole family. We shall see. It would be easy for them to spin this as “There is no danger in a home birth, because your midwife will send you to the hospital when necessary.”

            If only that were true! We’ve seen too many cases where midwives were unable to recognize trouble in the making, and unwilling to surrender control to the experts who could have saved baby and/or mother.

            The bottom line is that home birth is inherently riskier than hospital birth. And taking any unnecessary risk with your baby is unthinkable to me.

          • Stacy48918

            I think that’s exactly how they will spin it.

          • Karen in SC

            sadly, I agree

          • Mattie

            probably more of a ‘if you happen to be the star of a tv show on TLC and the cameras are there then your midwife will send you to the hospital because otherwise the film could be used as evidence for her malpractice and she can’t just lie her way out of it’

          • Cobalt

            This is, I think, a really big part of it. And it’s a shame that it takes a million people watching to get midwives to do the right thing.

            Medical decisions should be based on medical realities, not concerns about “brand” or what plays well on TV.

          • EllenL

            I wouldn’t be surprised if that had a role in it.

            Sadly, most midwifery disasters take place out of public view – and accountability.

          • Mattie

            true, and it makes tv shows like ‘born in the wild’ or whatever it is even more dangerous, because people watch and things will go fine, and then those who are already leaning that way will think it’s totally risk-free to go and do that, when the cameras and tv show change the situation so much that they might as well be comparing chalk and cheese.

    • toni

      aw they look thrilled, I’m glad they finally did the sensible thing.
      Also that baby looks enormous! And she’s so slight. :/ I honestly think I would die pushing out a baby that size.

  • You conflate Home birth as the same as not having the birth attended by a qualified professional. There are CNM (the highest trained ones) that do attend home births. As for the CPMs 3.5 years of being educated to only do normal deliveries is really not that brief. If they spend that long seeing the wide variety of normal then I expect they are very attuned to what is abnormal.

    Likely the person using a CPM has been planning for pregnancy, likely received excellent prenatal care, attended every class and has educated herself to prepare for what is usually a very normal process.

    Why is it that in terms of reproductive rights only those endorsed by the medical association are acceptable and anything else is mocked, marginalized and intolerable?
    How much of medicine is practiced for the benefit of malpractice prevention rather than well-being of the patient. Do we honestly think that a CPM is telling moms that “nothing can and will go wrong” as in every birth complications can occur.
    It is not a fair comparison to make between all the high risk births that OBs attend to the well planned normal births that everyone midwives do.

    In my private medical and psychiatric house calls practice in Manhattan (www.MetroMedicalDirect.com) I have an egalitarian discussion with my patients and their loved ones to help implement a plan of care that is mutually agreeable and we both understand the risks and benefits and perceptions of what is being offered.

    • KarenJJ

      NP?

      • Stacy48918

        Naturopath?

        • KarenJJ

          Ah, OK maybe he edited or maybe disqus is being buggy but there’s a link now to a Nurse Practitioner’s website. So I presume that’s the NP.

          • Sue

            A Nurse Practitioner who calls himself MetroMedical Direct and does housecalls in Manhattan in “primary care, Geriatrics, Mens Health and telemedicine” to “Take the hassle out of seeing a doctor”, and pronounces on how much obstetics exposure is enough. So much wrong with all that.

        • Mattie

          nutty professor =P

          • Daleth

            I shouldn’t say this, since I’ve seen naturopaths myself, but today I wondered if “ND” stands for “Not a Doctor.”

      • Bombshellrisa
    • Somewhereinthemiddle

      Actually, I was told by a CPM that serious complications are be prevented by diet and supplements. And when questioned about what would happen if we needed to transfer that “That won’t happen.”

      • Bugsy

        Reminds me of the crazy doula we interviewed (and thankfully never hired…).

    • Stacy48918

      Even “best-case” CNM homebirth is twice as likely as comparable risk hospital birth to end in a dead baby.

      “Why is it that in terms of reproductive rights only those endorsed by the medical association are acceptable and anything else is mocked, marginalized and intolerable?”

      Ummmm….because the alternatives swindle people out of their money with grandiose claims for products and services with no verifiable efficacy? Oh yea, and homebirth midwives kill babies. We really have a problem with dead babies here. Why don’t you?

      • Amy

        Again, replying here becuase Disqus isn’t allowing replies directly to Raymond.

        Further, unlike those who are actually anti-choice and want to criminalize abortion and severely restrict access to reproductive care, the only thing Dr. Amy and most of the posters here want to restrict is the ability of ill-trained birth junkies to present themselves as competent professionals. I challenge you to find a post where Dr. Amy advocated for the prosecution of women who gave birth at home, while the anti-choice folks are happy to pass laws that land women in jail after a miscarriage.

    • DaisyGrrl

      “As for the CPMs 3.5 years of being educated to only do normal deliveries is really not that brief.” And yet every other industrialized nation thinks the CPM credential is inadequate. Maybe there’s something to that.

      • Daleth

        And where does “3.5 years” come in? There is no requirement that you get any length of education to qualify as a CPM, much less 3.5 years.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          It takes 3.5 years as a correspondence course?

          • Heather Rische

            3.5 of clinical time.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            “Houston, we have a failure to disengage”

          • Stacy48918

            The flounce is hard to stick.

          • Daleth

            Heather… that is just not true. Here are the California requirements:

            http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Midwives/

            They require 3 years of study at a recognized midwifery school. That’s not 3.5 years (though the difference there is minimal), and more importantly it’s not 3 years “of clinical time,” as you claimed.

            But MOST importantly… that is CALIFORNIA’S requirement for licensed midwives. It is NOT a requirement for the CPM “qualification.” The CPM has zero educational requirements, unless you count reading stuff at your house without supervision, and then putting together a “portfolio” about what you read, as an educational requirement. Personally I call that a book report, not an education.

          • Heather Rische

            Yeah, I’m not in CA, so I only know what I have heard. I only echoed what one of you said above (re: 3.5). I am really shocked that a group of people so set on undermining homebirth and/or the CPM credential (which can be 2 very different things) by using peer reviewed science have actually not done the research on things like our ability to administer meds properly, run an IV, or resuscitate a baby; our required studies and the 8 hour exam we have to pass. Every midwifery school that I know of (or have gone to) *is* a clinical setting. When not in classroom, aspiring midwives are in prenatal and postpartum clinic and in birth , usually for 24 hour shifts. This is what CA requires, as much as I can claim understanding based on a nearby midwifery school in which the women from CA (and other states) stay on for 3 years, in clinic, as well as doing didactic during their extended stay. We also work out of the same texts as CNM’s (for example, Varney’s) and OB’s. If you want more real info, and not just Amy’s made up stuff about CPM’s (whom I will readily admit are not all created equal any more than CNM’s or OB’s) please do the research, folks, lest everything you say be dismissed as trollery. Unfortunately, this is not the forum in which I (or my much smarter peers who haven’t fallen prey)will attempt to educate those actually wanting to know. I absolutely support the positive intention of those of you wanting birth to be safe for mothers and babies. I have seen how the NCB community can be ignorant and shunning to women who do not fit their assumptions about birth. Rest assured I fight against this.

            So that I can reliably say I am not “failing to disengage”, I am cancelling my Disqus account (or notifications from here) today, because i can’t continue to give clicks to this misinformation site.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            We get it; you’re running away because you have demonstrated youself to be a dangerous fool.

          • KarenJJ

            Why come here to tell us that we are wrong but you’re not going to educate us and tell us why? You seem like a well-intentioned person in this reply and admit to issues with the standards across the board of CPMs but want to say that it’s #notallCPMs. Do you not see a problem with that sort of thinking? Do you not think that CPMs need to meet much stricter standards of practice in order to provide a safe maternity service to women?

          • Medwife

            It is impossible that you have been a midwife for as long as you say you have and not be aware of the HUGE spectrum of requirements and competences among different educational programs. It’s like medicine in the 1800s. Medicine got it straightened out and now when someone says they are an MD, you can be confident of a basic level of training. Midwifery, as in CPMs, are not there yet. You think all CPMs can start and run an IV, and know how to suture competently, and identify pre-e, and bother to test, REALLY test, for GDM? You are dreaming!

            Edit: I’m in Cali and not everyone practicing here is a licensed LM, not by a long shot. The CPM portfolio process, by the way, is a joke, too. It is SCARY, the shit that goes on.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Heather, how many attendants go to a birth with you? Because for me it would be impossible to perform a good (not excellent, just average good) CPR being alone with the patient.

          • Anj Fabian

            “or resuscitate a baby”

            The one thing I have seen midwives do poorly time and time again is neonatal resuscitation. They usually fall down on the first step – accurate and timely assessment of the apgar scores. Then if the baby needs help, they often (because of poor assessment) intervene incorrectly.

            This happens even when the birth has gone badly and there is every reason to expect the baby will be compromised. This should be a reason for the team to be readying themselves to intervene. (Including calling for an ambulance.)

            If you want to know where I’ve seen this – thank the internet and the growing quantities of videos and still images that document home births.

          • D/

            I’ve seen more than a few of those on-line home birth “resuscitation” video/ images too … or actually more like non-resuscitations with obviously unresponsive babies being only verbally coached back from the jaws of death. They never fail to make me cringe and wish I could reach through the screen and intervene.

            Just to clarify the Apgar score provides a useful, objective picture of the newborn’s status (and response to resuscitation), but it is actually not used to determine the need for resuscitation, which steps are necessary or when to use them. By the time the first Apgar is assigned at one minute the baby should have received the initial steps in stabilization- provide warmth, clear airway if necessary, dry, stimulate, assessment of respirations and heart rate, and initiation of positive pressure ventilations when needed.

            If PPV is initiated the baby should be immediately put on pulse oximetry and after 30 seconds of PPV the decision of whether to initiate chest compression is being made … This point in resuscitation could be reached within 1-1.5 minutes of delivery in an anticipated and well executed resuscitation.

            For fun I attached the list (from the NRP textbook) of risk factors associated with the increased likelihood of needing neonatal resuscitation. How many of those do you hear about as variations of normal?

          • sdsures

            Remember the Rixa Frieze (sp?) waterbirth video? The baby was blue. IIRC, the baby was eventually revived after a heart-stopping few minutes. I wanted to reach through the screen, too.

            I don’t know what its status is now – does anyone know?

          • D/

            Yep, definitely one of those chip your nails on the screen reactions for me. Initially only weak, brief respiratory effort (really needed her airway cleared and some stimulation at this point that she didn’t get). Then quickly became cyanotic, apneic, completely limp and unresponsive.

            Really glad Rixa had the wherewithal to finally do mouth to mouth at that point. That baby was going nowhere except down the tubes on her own!

            She’s four now. There was a birthday update a month or two ago on Rixa’s blog.

          • sdsures

            What if she comes across her own birth on Youtube 20 years from now?

          • MaineJen

            …yeah, you’ve proven me wrong, so I’m going to go on another tangent now. Otherwise known as Reframing the Argument.

        • Heather Rische

          For several states, including California, 3.5 years is required.

          • Daleth

            That would be a California requirement for midwives. Not a requirement of the CPM “qualification.” Absolutely no education requirements exist–unless you consider sitting at home reading stuff to be “education”–for CPMs.

      • Paloma

        I don’t know why it doesn’t let me answer the main thread, so I’ll post here.
        3.5 years is not a long time. To put it into perspective, in my country (Spain) a midwife needs to go through 4 years of college to earn a nursing degree, pass a national exam where 14,000 people try for less than 400 spots of training for midwifery, and then do 2 years of training, in a hospital that has to be credited with a certain amount of births per year to be able to have a midwife resident. That is 6 years of training, all in college or a hospital, where they have to go through evaluations constantly. 3.5 years of self-taught with a portfolio and control by another midwife of similar training, none of it requiring college education, is NOT enough.
        And they don’t spend that much time seeing a “wide variety of normal” unless they spend those 3 years seeing multiple births per day, and that doesn’t happen. Since most births are at the hospital to begin with you are left with 1 each day if you are very lucky. Not that wide variety you would expect to learn to identify and manage complications.

    • KarenJJ

      “If they spend that long seeing the wide variety of normal then I expect they are very attuned to what is abnormal.”

      You expect wrong.

      If you’d read here a few months ago you’d have been able to watch CPMs and other lay midwives (and I think there was an Australian trained midwife in there too from memory?) try their very best to ignore issues that led to a baby’s death. Keep reading. You’re just skimming the tip of the iceberg with this case.

      http://www.skepticalob.com/2014/02/jan-tritten-crowd-sources-a-life-or-death-decision-and-the-baby-ends-up-dead.html

    • Siri

      Why do you feel that malpractice prevention and patient wellbeing are mutually exclusive?

      • NoLongerCrunching

        Sorry to reply to this instead of the OP, but for some reason Disqus isn’t letting me. Anyway, Raymond, as a nurse practitioner, how would you feel if a lay person did a correspondence course in your field, apprenticed with another person who had been through the same program, took an exam after seeing maybe 50 patients, then opened their own office? What’s more, they cast aspersions on you as overly medicalized and advertise to your patients that they can provide more evidence-based care?

        • Amy

          Same– I don’t understand why Raymond’s post alone doesn’t allow replies. But I’m trying to think of another profession (profession– not just “job”) where we consider 3.5 years adequate training. An undergraduate degree is the equivalent of 4 years of full-time study. An MD is another four years on top of that; an MSN or CNM is another two years on top of that. Lawyers and teachers need that four-year degree plus an additional 2-3 years of training, and they’re (I guess we’re– I’m a teacher) not expected to deal with emergency situations.

          • Mattie

            I mean, an undergrad degree is 4 years in the US, it’s 3 in the UK. So UK nurses and midwives (and many other professions) have 3 years of training, but then UK midwives are way better trained than CPMs so that doesn’t really relate, something isn’t going right. CPMs could be sufficiently qualified to practice as a UK midwife in 3 years, they are clearly not.

          • Wren

            An undergrad degree is shorter in the UK because it lacks the general ed requirements. A UK undergrad usually has more work in the degree field (major for the US) than a US undergrad degree.

            I have a US undergrad degree in biological sciences with a minor in chemistry, but spent 1 1/2 years of that studying in the UK. When I came to the UK in my junior year, I did not have the prerequisites for most of the third year classes, and not all of the 2nd year ones. I did take a few third year classes the second time I studied in the UK (2nd half of my senior year), but by then I could have graduated from my US university had I not wanted the extra semester abroad.

          • Mattie

            Yeh that makes sense, I also think grad school is a lot more common (a lot more professions require it) in the US, and potentially general 12th grade high school education requirements in the US (non-AP programs) are at a slightly lower level than UK year 13. But I think it all balances out in the end haha

          • Wren

            From my experience, and comparing my high school to that of friends and family in the UK, the U.S. has a much broader high school education while the UK generally focuses on 3 subjects for A-levels, the last 2 years before university, and those are optional years. Leaving at 16 is perfectly acceptable (though does rule out jobs requiring higher education). That narrower focus continues into undergrad degrees, and due to that a masters is often shorter here. I know my husband took 4 years to get a combined degree equivalent to a BS and MS in physics. Back then UK students paid no tuition fees for undergrad and received a grant for living expenses, so it was entirely worthwhile to do the combined program. Unfortunately, those days are long gone and my kids won’t get that free education. Boo.

            Unlike the US, law school and med school do not require an undergrad degree. I think it’s 5 years for medicine, as opposed to 8 (4 and 4) in the US. New doctors really are young here.

          • Mattie

            I can’t remember exactly how many years ago it was but children are required to remain in some form of education until 18 now, this can be A-Levels, IB, a vocational college course or an apprenticeship. I think the options allow for those who are less academic to achieve in other ways, and hopefully find careers that are meaningful to them as well as provide an income one can live on.

            Tuition fees at most universities are £9000 per year, with loans from the government for UK and EU students, international fees are higher and set by the university I think. Loans and grants are available for living costs, and students can also work during term time if they wish. UK student loans are different from US loans I think in that the repayments are tied to your income (you don’t pay until your earnings reach £25k per year and stop if they fall below that) and repayments rise when you earn more money etc… Also the loans do not effect credit rating, and are written off after 30 years (or if you die) so are not passed on to children/other family.

            Yes, med school and law school (and also some teacher education, nursing school, midwifery school, paramedic training, ODP training and many other health professions) are undergrad programs, varying in length from 2-5 years+. Doctors really are young here 🙂 but also we have more mature students I think so that kind of balances the ages.

          • Dr Kitty

            Yep! 5years for medicine, but A-level chemistry, biology and physics are common entry requirements, so they can basically jump straight into biochem, physiology and anatomy in the first year.

            I had a six year medical degree- first year was basic maths, physics, biology and chemistry to ensure that the Irish students were all up to speed, because some would only have taken two sciences at Leaving Cert, and Leaving Cert is less than A-Level.

            Second and third year were biochem, anatomy, physiology, fourth was pathology, pharmacology, microbiology and clinical placements in medicine, surgery and GP. Fifth year was more pharm and path and micro and placements in ObGyn, paeds and psych and sixth year was finishing up all the theoretical stuff, clinical placements in ENT and Opthalmology and things like cardiology, neurology and endocrinology, with some leeway to arrange placements to suit your own learning needs/ future career plans.

            UK medical schools can get away with squeezing things down into five years because the basic science grounding is stronger to start with, and there aren’t required humanities or arts courses apart from some mandatory comminication skills and ethics courses. Also it takes at least 5 years after graduation to be a GP and 8-10 to be a fully qualified consultant specialist.
            Which is longer than the USA.

          • Amy

            Well, yes, it is only three in the UK; however, from what I understand having gone to university in Canada, GCSEs and A-levels before that were about the academic equivalent of the first year of university in the US. When you add to that that the CPM credential barely requires a high school diploma, it makes it even worse.

          • Mattie

            yeh definitely not enough, also midwifery (and nurse) training in the UK is so so hard, lots of people who start do not finish (including me).

      • Daleth

        “Medical malpractice” means doctors, nurses etc. making mistakes that hurt or kill their patients. So, “malpractice prevention” means “preventing doctors, nurses, etc. from making mistakes that hurt or kill their patients.”

        Why would anyone think that was somehow inconsistent with patient well-being?

        • Stacy48918

          Unfortunately, a large number of “malpractice” suits are just bad outcomes, complications, etc…not necessarily mistakes.

          • Daleth

            I’m a lawyer, but I was trying to speak in plain English, using the word “mistake” to stand in for “something a reasonable doctor/nurse/etc. would not have done in such circumstances.”

            But even setting aside the technical legal definition of medical malpractice, you mention “bad outcomes, complications etc.” Isn’t preventing bad outcomes and complications, whenever it’s possible to prevent them, totally consistent with patient well-being? In other words I’m still not seeing why or how “malpractice prevention” is inconsistent with patient well-being.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Do you do malpractice law? Can I ask you your impression about the frequency of justified versus unjustified lawsuits? I don’t like malpractice lawsuits as a way of preventing malpractice because there seem to me too many opportunities for both unjustified lawsuits (an unavoidable bad outcome or a case where there was a risk no matter what course was taken and things happened to go wrong) and suits not occuring that should have because medicine is so esoteric that it’s hard for patients to know whether the right thing was done or not. That being said, it’s sure a lot better to have people sue than to have them have no option to sue as the CPMs who don’t have malpractice insurance and therefore shrug off lawsuits clearly show.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Can I ask you your impression about the frequency of justified versus unjustified lawsuits?

            While there are some clearly frivolous lawsuits that can be thrown out immediately, isn’t the question of “justified” vs “unjustified” really a question for the jury?

            It’s easy to say that all the lawsuits that didn’t win were “unjustified” but then again, shouldn’t they also have their day in court to make their argument that they were justified? If you knew ahead of time which lawsuits would win and which would not we would not need a jury system.

          • Daleth

            You pretty much nailed it, Bofa. Also, FYI it is against the ethical rules lawyers are required to follow for a lawyer to bring a suit that they know is frivolous.

          • sdsures

            Could te TFB fiasco be an example of that?

          • Daleth

            What’s the TFB fiasco?

          • sdsures
          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The problem, from my point of view, is that it’s hard for a patient to know what is malpractice and what is simply a bad outcome or a bad decision. For example, patient has a blood clot and gets started on anticoagulation. They slip on the ice and have a head bleed. That is not, IMHO, malpractice but just bad luck*, but it is a bad outcome and there’s a reasonable chance that it wouldn’t have happened if the patient hadn’t been on anticoagulation. So it might look like malpractice to the patient and the lawyer–after all, they bled or bled worse because of the anticoagulant. That could result in a lawsuit just because how is anyone not trained in medicine supposed to know whether it was malpractice or not? Juries have the same problem. How are they supposed to know what is or is not accepted standard of care? There is so much expert knowledge needed that I don’t see how a nonspecialist can evaluate whether a malpractice suit is justified or not.

            *There is an increased risk of bleeding when you take an anticoagulant. We don’t have the drug that prevents clots but doesn’t cause bleeding. Sorry.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How are they supposed to know what is or is not accepted standard of care?

            They ask doctors, of course. Well, the lawyers ask doctors, and the doctors testify.

          • Daleth

            **” That could result in a lawsuit just because how is anyone not trained in medicine supposed to know whether it was malpractice or not? Juries have the same problem. How are they supposed to know what is or is not accepted standard of care?”**

            A malpractice lawyer is supposed to be able to evaluate, either from experience or with the assistance of an expert, whether it’s malpractice (i.e., whether it falls below the standard of care). Malpractice lawyers are the first gatekeepers against frivolous suits–which sounds like a conflict of interest, but isn’t, because malpractice lawyers most often work on contingency, so they make no money unless they win.

            And the jury is supposed to figure it out by listening to the experts. That’s why you have to have expert witnesses in a malpractice case–you need doctors to explain to the jury what the standard of care is.

          • Roadstergal

            I go back and forth on these things. There are some high-profile cases where juries decided cases against the science – eg, silicone breast implants.

          • sdsures

            Agreed.

  • Lea

    I am happy to see she was open to advice and went to the hospital where she could be safely delivered of this very big boy. Looks like it was a possible cesarean delivery as well but all that matters is that everyone is fine. As for Jill, if she wants to take midwifery seriously and train to be a proper one it is good she had a delivery like this to show her that things sometimes don’t follow a birth plan.

  • KarenJJ

    A few things to consider for posters below:

    1. If you believe that women are intelligent and autonomous human beings, you will need to accept that other women will choose differently from you. They might discuss c-section risks or epidurals with their doctors and midwives and decide that a c-section/epidural is the best decision for them.

    2. Not all women believe that their bodies were designed with a certain purpose in mind. Many women have bodies with their own quirks. Telling my body that it is getting life wrong doesn’t make it more able-bodied and is a form of “magical thinking”.

    3. What you believe to be “well researched” and “educated” is mostly made up crap read on the internet. Just because someone says they are a “Doctor” and shows a massive list of impressive sounding “references” doesn’t mean that they get a free pass. You need to examine EVERYTHING that you read on the internet with the idea that maybe the person saying it is full of crap and/or a 16yo kid with no idea what they’re talking about. This includes this website. Take what you read with a grain of salt and discuss with your doctor/s or read the source material (eg journals, studies, CDC info).

    4. It’s OK to change your mind. Have a read around here and elsewhere and see what different people say about things. We’re generally a reasonable bunch on here. Hardly “minions” (unfortunately). If you find Dr Amy’s tone a bit too much there are also some great blogs on the blog roll.

    5. CPMs cannot practice anywhere else in the developed world precisely because they lack skills, training and experience. Homebirth is not hugely common in other countries and in many is actually declining. Sure they are lovely people, but are you falling for charisma – an illusion and good advertising? Don’t confuse image with substance.

    • Who?

      Well put, thanks.

      Not that it’s likely to slow anyone down though.

      Can we add a

      4. In the end what matters is healthy mum and healthy baby. Neither of you are defined by how that is achieved. Life is long, parenting can be challenging work, and how a pregnancy ends doesn’t make you a better or more loving parent.

      • KarenJJ

        “Not that it’s likely to slow anyone down though.”

        I wish it would. Some outrageous things have been said below. I was hoping a more generalised post at the top might give the more reasonable posters pause for thought before they posted.

        • Who?

          Agree completely.

          I didn’t mean to suggest the list isn’t valuable, or important, or useful. Some posters feel like a vacuum into which good intentions and knowledge and facts get sucked, then spat out twisted and broken.

          • KarenJJ

            I was worried it would sound condescending putting that list up, but I really felt like I was following a “stream of conscious” defensiveness rather than a disagreement of fundamentals.

          • Who?

            That’s true. It’s a good list, and a great point for starting a conversation.

            One of the challenges is receptivity to disagreement. People and I disagree all day long. I’m used to it, don’t find it challenging. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes others do, more often we find a way to compromise and get the job done. Some compromises are strategic, some are actual changes of view by me or others. And no one dies, and the work of the world inches forward.

            If you’re not used to it though, it must be hard. And if you’ve built a whole value system around a particular thing, hearing it robustly attacked would be really difficult.

            The fence sitters are the target, and a list of talking points as you suggest would surely help to reach them.

    • Heather Rische

      It’s interesting that Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors without Borders) do wholeheartedly accept CPM credentials; in response to your “nowhere else in the developed world” comment. I understand the MSF operates in the 3rd world, primarily, however, this doctor-run organization respects the credential. Perhaps the reason that CPM isn’t accepted worldwide is that there are already established credentials in those developed countries. Likewise, a British CM can’t practice in the US, in most cases. Even doctors trained in other countries have a hard time getting licensed to practice here.

      • Medwife

        I am hoping that there is a misunderstanding and that it’s not true that MSF accepts CPMs. If they do I am deeply disappointed and as a regular donor I’m writing a letter, for what that’s worth.

        And yeah. Third-world. Desperate poor people who take what they can get.

        • attitude devant

          Does the phrase ‘warm body’ mean anything to you? Even Ensign Pulver was allowed to do an appendectomy.

          • Daleth

            Exactly. In the middle of a war zone or the Ebola quarantine zone, a CPM is better than nobody. At least she won’t freak out when someone goes into labor; at least she’ll probably know how to cut the cord properly; at least she’ll know to use soap and water; at least she’s not pregnant and/or starving and/or frantically searching for her missing family and/or horribly ill herself.

            But we’re talking third-world war zone/epidemic conditions. Is that really the standard we want to use for our own births, here in the US?

          • Medwife

            Hell no she wouldn’t be! In an Ebola zone? They’re not used to PPE and any real, full scale sterile technique. They rarely give IM injections. They’d get themselves infected and/or infect somebody else on their first day.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            NO thank you. I understand what you are trying to say but we do not need to be exporting our poorly trained birth junkies and letting them inflict themselves on resource poor countries. Just no. These people (CPMs) often miss signs of PPH, retained placenta, GD,etc. People deserve real Health Care professionals. I would prefer donating to legitimate agencies that work on training local people in science based midwifery techniques rather than encouraging the “mostly untrained volunteer wants to swoop in and rescue the poor third world unfortunate” model

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            This is the sort of train local people as birth attendants program I mean:
            http://www.globalgiving.org/projects/training-women-to-become-birth-attendants/

            from the website:

            “Trained birth attendants will provide health education in isolated villages(family planning, breastfeeding, nutrition, maternal and infant care). Mothers and children receive adequate care with recognition and referral of early signs of complications”

          • Bombshellrisa

            http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/work-us/work-field/who-we-need/nurse-midwives-certified-midwives
            There is no mention of CPMs.
            http://prontointernational.org/about-us/mission-vision-and-values/
            My favorite organization, they do emergency simulations and teach in low resource areas. No woo, but they really try to help improve outcomes

          • SuperGDZ

            Yup, those dumb Africans haven’t even figured out how to use soap and water yet

          • Daleth

            I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. “War zones” are hardly exclusive to Africa, and the problems I envisioned existing inside the Ebola quarantine zone were not because it happened to be in Africa, but because it was the Ebola quarantine zone.

          • SuperGDZ

            Do people in war zones forget how to use soap and water?

          • Daleth

            Did I mention soap and water somewhere? I believe you may be arguing with yourself.

          • SuperGDZ

            “In the middle of a war zone or the Ebola quarantine zone, a CPM is better than nobody…at least she’ll know to use soap and water”

        • Daleth

          My google search brought up a bunch of midwives on LinkedIn who have Medecins Sans Frontieres on their resume. With only one exception, the CPMs were either:

          (1) not working as midwives (two of them worked for MSF as “Sexual Violence Program” coordinators or consultants), or

          (2) were actual midwives from foreign countries (i.e., with midwifery degrees from universities, and in most cases experience in hospitals in those countries), who now live in the US and apparently decided to become CPMs on top of their real qualification.

          The only *possible* exception on the entire list is a woman in Portland who, though clearly pretty woo-intensive, did at least spend 4 years at a “college of midwifery” in Oregon. And even she lists herself as both a midwife and a “Sexual Violence Program Consultant,” so it’s not entirely clear to me what she does at MSF.

          Here’s a link:
          https://www.linkedin.com/title/midwife-at-m%C3%A9decins-sans-fronti%C3%A8res-(msf)

          • Medwife

            What use could they be as midwives? I have a CNM friend who worked with them in Sudan. She first assisted a lot for c/s. Her patients were often very complicated. How could a CPM have any experience whatsoever with sick women, since they only attend low- risk home births with appropriate backup quickly available?

            That last sentence gets a /s

        • Heather Rische

          Nope, true story. I have several friends who are CPM/MSF. Only one of them is also a nurse. One has been featured heavily in their blog posts regarding Ebola and pregnancy.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Amos Grunebaum stated that only CM/CNMs are being recruited, not CPMs. There was a notice for recruiting on Facebook and he commented on it https://m.facebook.com/MidwiferyToday/posts/10152328336530266
          “Amos Grunebaum
          Hi. Just to clarify the requirements. Only CNM or CM can apply and not CPMs or others. So 2/3 homebirth midwives cannot even apply to work for DWB. That should give a clear indication whom DWB considers a real midwife.”

      • KarenJJ

        “wholeheartedly accept CPM credentials”
        They do? Can you provide info on how MSF wholeheartedly accept the CPM credential? There are midwives that work in other countries (eg Carol Perks, an Australian midwife that worked for Save the Children in Laos) and had great results, but I’ve not heard of a CPM being able to set up the health infrastructure that she set up and be able to show the evidence of improvement on key statistics that a midwife like Carol was able the achieve.

      • Amy

        I suppose you weren’t expecting people not to just accept everything you put forward without question?

  • Pdoh

    Bottom line. It’s no ones business but theirs!!!!!

    • Cobalt

      Unless they are selling it to the public.

    • Stacy48918

      What exactly is the baby’s business?

      Seems he had difficulty getting from the inside to the outside, why didn’t he get a say before the birth?

  • Wombat

    These comments are funny as sin. Glad the baby is healthy. Fortunate he’s a boy so he probably won’t have to be (as much of) an indentured servant either!

    • Stacy48918

      No, he’ll just be the one perpetuating the verbal, emotional, reproductive and spiritual abuse.

      • Mishimoo

        There is hope – my brother has turned into a wonderful person who does his best to be fair and kind despite being raised in that lifestyle.

      • Wombat

        Unfortunately, probably. But I’d say the boys have a slightly better chance to eacape just because them having their own control of their future is slightly more accepted, and they are less guilted, trapped, and indoctrinated by essentially becoming mothers at 9, 10, 11, 12 (if they even wait that long).

        I wish all children of these movements their chance to -truly- make their own choice, free of indoctrination and the threat of shunning, but I also know that is extremely unlikely to happen, so I take the small victories where I can.

  • moms2cool

    Wow this a really biased article. As a registered nurse, a four year bachelors degree program , I have been a nurse for 33 years. I have actually recently looked into the different ways to become a nurse midwife and you are correct there are two routes. However every state has different qualification requirements. England has just announced after a huge study that low risk births are safer at home. I totally understand that study. Unfortunately too many babies are born by c-section in the USA in the hospital. Many women that could give birth successfully vaginally are rushed to sections or frankly there is the whole growing host of women who schedule sections so it is convenient for them. That is just irresponsible. Now before all of you start yelling at me, I was a section baby as were all my siblings because we were all frank breach. Guess what all of my babies were section babies because all were frank breach. As a NICU nurse I saw the horrors of women who had unqualified obstetricians who did a vaginally delivery with breach babies. Cerebral Palsy , broncho pulmonary dysplasia due to meconium aspiration because baby was too stressed during labor and no one recognized it and because mom wanted vaginal birth they got it. With a severely sick and eventually disabled child. The best birth for a baby is when the baby is HEALTHY. That is the bottom line. My hubby is a board certified family physician who used to deliver babies all the time however stopped due to high malpractice rates. The realization is pretty soon there will not be enough Ob’s to deliver babies in the US. So nurse midwives are a great thing. I just experienced 9 months of prenatal care and delivery with my daughters best friend and attended her birth. The nurse midwives were totally professional and were as good as any OB I knew. They also knew their limitations and had a hospital plan in place. Like I said the best delivery is where the baby is healthy.

    • Nick Sanders

      Safer or less expensive? Last I heard, it was a cost cutting measure.

      • Cobalt

        Yup. Cheaper for the government (short term, at least), and more money for midwives, who lobbied hard for years for the declared conclusions (psst…the headlines don’t clearly reflect the data).

        • Bombshellrisa

          Not that UK midwives should be held as great models to follow right now. Between the comments the student midwives make about withholding pain medicine and how the midwives have conducted themselves lately on Twitter and, as you mentioned, the latest headlines regarding midwifery care.

          • Cobalt

            They have a horrible track record even in hospital…what good is the technology if you don’t use it? It’s like giving birth in the hospital parking lot.

          • Bombshellrisa

            OMG don’t get me started. A friend’s mother told me that the midwives left her room while she was in labor, telling her “we are going to go and have our tea, when we get done it will be just about time for that baby to be born”. And that isn’t even anything compared to what has been published lately

    • Jennifer

      SO GLAD you referenced the study from England! I was wondering if anyone here knew it even existed.

      • Cobalt

        The Birthplace study? We went over that several times here. Do me a favor and put up a graph of the death rates in the various groups.

        • Dr Kitty

          Like this one?

          Table 4 Outcomes for the baby for each planned place of birth: low‑risk nulliparous women (source: Birthplace 2011 )

          Number of babies per 1000 births

          Babies without serious medical problems

          Home 991

          Freestanding midwifery unit 995

          Alongside midwifery unit 995

          Obstetric unit 995

          Babies with serious medical problems*

          Home 9

          Freestanding midwifery unit 5

          Alongside midwifery unit 5

          Obstetric unit 5

          * Serious medical problems were combined in the study: neonatal encephalopathy and meconium aspiration syndrome were the most common adverse events, together accounting for 75% of the total. Stillbirths after the start of care in labour and death of the baby in the first week of life accounted for 13% of the events. Fractured humerus and clavicle were uncommon outcomes – less than 4% of adverse events.

          Like this table from the December 2014 NICE Intrapartum Guidance, which shows that planned Homebirth in low risk nulliparous women, even with a high transfer rate (450/1000!), almost doubles the risk of a serious adverse outcome for the baby, from 5/1000 to 9/1000, or from 1 in 200 to almost 1 in 100.

          Source: http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg190/chapter/1-recommendations#general-principles-for-transfer-of-care

          So, for low risk nulliparous women (like Jill Dillard) giving birth at home home, with two graduate level NHS midwives who carry drugs and oxygen is twice as dangerous for the baby as hospital, even using the Birthplace study.

          Considering that a CPM in the USA usually has less equipment and less training, often attends labours alone, with longer distances to get to hospitals than the UK and without the seamless transfers and direct admissions to L&D possible in the NHS, it is unsurprising that Homebirth in the USA is even less safe.
          Source: http://weill.cornell.edu/news/pr/2013/09/birth-setting-study-signals-significant-risks-in-planned-home-birth.html

          But hey! Let’s not let pesky facts get in the way of the nice fluffy idea that Homebirth is as safe as hospital!

          • Roadstergal

            Wow, almost half of all low-risk nulliparous women transfer? I know that stat isn’t getting a lot of play on the ground…

            Telling that none of the parachuters touting the Birthplace Study has replied. It’s one thing to read the abstract, another to actually look at the data.

            It looks like risk of C-section and blood transfusion is higher at HB than at an MLU…? I wonder about that, as my NCB friend inquired about an MLU (which surprised me, given how much she hates health care professionals, but she does love her the midwives) but noted that if she were risked out of an MLU and referred to an OB unit, she’d just give birth at home instead.

          • Medwife

            If she was RISKED OUT she’d “just give birth at home”? D:

          • Roadstergal

            I’ve been trying to parse out the reasoning, and it’s been a lot of difficult and painful conversations, and I’ve actually had to move away from being as close a friend because it was all getting too much. : But from what I could find out – the Birthplace study was, among a lot of folk on the ground, taken as read as a blanket statement of fact that ‘home is always safer than hospitals,’ and they hang hard onto that as a truism.

            There’s also a big dose of distrust of hospitals and doctors (not helped by GPs that were hesitant to provide drugs for HG), and having had an emergency C-section after a failed version that she found a traumatic experience, and a friend who had a midwife-supported HBAC that apparently went well.

            I gave up, I really did, and I feel that every day. I know that even with an HBAC, there’s still better odds than not that everything will be OK, so I can at least feel moderately OK that it won’t be a disaster.

            It’s like knowing your friend is going drunk driving with her kid. I know she’ll probably be okay, but… I feel strange and sad and off about the whole thing.

          • Sarah

            Fascinating. Thanks for copying the relevant extract.

      • Dr Kitty

        Jennifer, I find it interesting you assume that we don’t read the research.

        I wonder if you had any comments on any of these papers?
        I assume you’ve read them already, but I’ll link, just in case you need to remind yourself of the conclusions.

        Grunebaum et al 2014
        http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378%2814%2900275-0/abstract

        Grunebaum et al 2013
        http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378%2813%2900641-8/abstract

        Wax et al 2010
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20598284

        Evers et al 2010
        http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c5639

        Kennare et al 2010
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20078406

    • Cobalt

      It is very biased against CPMs, and the more you know about CPMs the more you understand the bias.

    • KarenJJ

      “The best birth for a baby is when the baby is HEALTHY. That is the bottom line.”

      Nobody is going to disagree with that here. Have a read around the archives for some interesting discussions and articles. Sounds like you’d be more in agreement with everyone here. There’s some horrifying stories of midwifery incompetence and bullying catalogued here that get deleted on other websites in order to preserve the illusion that untrained lay people that don’t even have nursing training are also as good as obs.

    • jricord

      Thank you for your educated input moms2cool!! I am a mommy who has given birth 5 times. 3 at a hospital under care of different OB’s and hospital staff, and 2 at home under the qualified care of a CPM. So while I have no medical background, merely personal experience, any day of the week I choose birth at home with a CPM!! My only complicated deliveries occurred in hospital due to uneccesary interventions which just snow balled. Think of the outrageous c section rates in many hospitals)…MANY MANY low risk women are MUCH better off at home allowing their bodies to do what a woman’s body is created to do in a safe, loving environment in which they are relaxed and at ease (as moms give birth most effectively under these circumstances). Not lying flat on a bed in a L & d room full of medical technology so many doctors and nurses seem so overly eager to use at times. More and more moms are turning to home birth NOT as a last resort, but a first option. The majority of these moms are well educated and informed on their decision. Wish I chose home birth with a skilled and experienced CPM from the first!!

      • KarenJJ

        I like how your idea of a “skilled and experienced” midwife would be ineligible to be a midwife in my country due to the lack of skills and experience.

      • Cobalt

        Then why is the death rate at homebirth 450% higher than hospital birth, according to MANA?

      • Nick Sanders

        What makes the c-section rates outrageous?

      • Julie

        I would have considered a home birth for my 3rd, but I was considered high risk. All 3 were hospital births, my first two I had IV pain meds, last one zero pain meds. Guess what? My last one was the easiest! I went in hell bent on no pain meds (because it was my last). I notice hospitals want epidurals because it makes their jobs easier (i.e. they can take their time once the woman is at 10 cm). I went from 8-10 in about 3 min so there was no time for the Dr to wait (once I felt the urge, I was pushing). I lucked out and had a wonderful nurse who allowed me to make the decision to not get an epidural when I was about to give in. My husband was very supportive of my decision. I educated myself a ton on how to get the birth you want. Plus sometimes interventions (epidurals, pitocin, etc) cause the need for c-sections. I wish I would have done all 3 pain med free. My 2nd was a nightmare. The hospital staff was horrible. I was fully dilated and the Dr wasn’t there. They made me breathe thru my pushes for about 30 min while I’m screaming in pain. Finally I gave up and the intern delivered my son, because I couldn’t keep him in any longer…one of us could have been injured). I’m glad I didn’t wait, the Dr showed up 20 min after my son was born! He was 5 weeks early and got sent to the NICU. I think laboring on your own is the best for sure, with as little interventions as possible. It’s best for baby and your body knows what to do!

        • moto_librarian

          I feel so sorry for women like you who can’t get it right the first time. I had my first child totally naturally. It really is too bad that you weren’t prepared enough to not cave in and have medication with your first two. I guess you only warrant a bronze medal.

          /sarcasm

          • Julie

            I’m hoping that’s sarcasm. I had for first one at 18 and didn’t have very much support and didn’t educate myself enough, but I went almost all of labor before asking for anything

          • Daleth

            It is sarcasm–that’s why it says “/sarcasm” at the end. The slash means “end of” (as in “end of sarcasm,” since its the end of the post).

          • Busbus

            Julie, it’s great that you feel good about your last birth; apparently a lot of things turned out the way you wanted them and that’s wonderful!

            However, I still feel that the insistence on doing it natural being somehow “better” that you encounter in lots of natural birth circles, and even in mainstream culture, is quite problematic. Women in labor are the only ones who are frequently told by others that they ought to tolerate major, often excruciating, pain despite having the ability to relieve it, and that if they do happen to choose to relieve that pain, they have “given in” or “failed.” This attitude is both inhumane and misogynous. No one would talk like that to people about to undergo root canal surgery. Let’s cut it out of our discourse about birth, and let’s cut it out when it comes to our self-talk” and our own feelings about birth. There is no right or wrong way to give birth, and there is absolutely no reason that having chosen an epidural or any other medical procedure (that we are lucky to have access to) should make us even one iota less proud about the momentous day we gave birth to our much-loved child.

          • Julie

            I guess I want to say that it was empowering for me to have the birth experience I wanted. After 9 weeks of bed rest it was a way for me to relinquish control of my pregnancy again! Women have been having babies alone, in the fields, etc with no pain management so I knew it could be done. Main thing is healthy mommy, healthy baby! They sure are worth any amount of pain

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Women have been having babies alone, in the fields, etc with no pain management so I knew it could be done.

            So wait – if it’s so common and women can have babies in the field alone without pain relief etc, why are you proud that you can do it?

            Or is it more that you feel that if you didn’t, you would have been a failure? You would have thought, “There are women who have babies in the fields working alone without pain medication and I can’t! I can’t even be as good as them!”

            Of course, keep in mind that the reason that women in the fields gave birth without pain medication is that THEY DIDN’T HAVE ANY CHOICE!!!!! You think natural childbirth was empowering for them? God no. They had no control at all. Do you think that maybe if they had an alternative, they would have opted out?

            You had options. So how is not choosing to have an epidural less empowering than choosing to have an epidural? I would think that “I had an option to get an epidural and damn it, I made the decision to do it” would be just as empowering as saying no. Empowerment is manifested in the ability to have control and make decisions, not in the decisions that are made.

            However, in the end, whether it CAN be done or not, or even whether you wanted to or not is not the point of my question.

            I am trying to figure out why, if the pain had gotten so bad that you had chosen to go with pain relief and an epidural, why you would have been “furious” with yourself? You wanted to do it without, fine. However, if you had given in (considering the pain was unbearable, you have said), what would have been wrong with that that you would have been mad at yourself?

            You didn’t cause the pain. You would have just found it unbearable and chosen to get rid of it. That’s not a failure, that’s taking advantages of your options.

          • Daleth

            Relinquish?

            You might want to look up the word “relinquish.”

          • momofone

            The only “birth experience” I wanted was one that ended with both of us healthy. How that happened was way down the list. No extra credit for unnecessary pain.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I lucked out and had a wonderful nurse who allowed me to make the decision to not get an epidural when I was about to give in.

          I fail to see how that was lucky.

          Actually, I don’t even understand the point. How can you be allowed to make the decision to get an epidural? Epidurals aren’t given unless you make the decision to do it. If you don’t ask for an epidural, you don’t get one. And if you do ask for an epidural, it’s because you want one, so you should get it.

          You were about to ask for an epidural. Why? Because the pain was getting to be too much for you? Why else would you “give in”?

          • Julie

            Sorry for the confusion. I meant that she respected my birth plan of not having an epidural, she wasn’t pushy. She allowed me to take as long as I needed to decide. I would have be furious at myself if I’d given in to the pain.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            She allowed me to take as long as I needed to decide.

            What else can she do? She can’t do an epidural until you decide to do it, so it’s always on your time frame.

            I know, asking you if you want an epidural is really offensive. Of course, you yourself ADMIT that you were about ready to want one, so the fact that she would ask you is actually a pretty good thing.

            I would have be furious at myself if I’d given in to the pain.

            Why? Why do you think it is better to not get relief from the pain? I don’t understand.

          • Julie

            I was at 8 cm when I was starting to 2nd guess my ability to have the baby with no pain medication. It was my last baby and I’d had 2 others without an epidural so to me it was a pride thing. I knew I wouldn’t need one if I didn’t need one before, but when it was starting to become unbearable I was too close to delivery for anything but an epidural (IV drugs would cause a low apgar in baby). So instead of me saying “sure” I took a few more contractions to think about it, then “wham” I was at 10! I thank God that I didn’t jump to an answer….so basically because of my perfectly timed procrastination I got the exact birth I wanted! And I would have been mad at myself, because I really wanted a natural delivery and that was my last chance. No more babies for me! I did the same thing with my other two, I waited until I couldn’t breathe between contractions (hyperventilated from the pain) before I asked for meds, but they didn’t push epidurals back then. They offered IV meds and I said sure. But in the end I had the birth I wanted for my last child and it was the best experience of all 3. I felt so euphoric after! And I’d do it natural all over again if I had to 🙂

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It was my last baby and I’d had 2 others without an epidural so to me it was a pride thing.

            Why? What is there to be proud of?

            but when it was starting to become unbearable I was too close to delivery for anything but an epidural

            Sounds like a good time to get pain relief, to me. The pain was “unbearable”? That sucks.

            And I would have been mad at myself, because I really wanted a natural delivery

            But why? You keep saying you would have been mad (or furious) at yourself for getting pain relief, but I don’t understand why.

            You already had 2 “natural delieveries” without epidurals, so why were you so bent on having a third?

          • Julie

            Well I’ve been told that IV meds is not “natural”. I’m very proud of myself. I guess I’m confused on why you’re confused. It was something I wanted to do for myself! All natural – no drugs! I knew I was strong enough to do it, but felt I needed to prove it to myself. Please don’t question my motive. It was just something I WANTED TO DO! And I’m extremely proud that I did it and that it turned out better than the 2 with drugs! That’s all…I think I enjoyed the actual delivery more without the drugs.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You were the one making the big deal of out it (you claimed you would have been furious at yourself), I’m just trying to understand why.

            If it hurt so bad that you had “given in” to having pain medications, why would that have been bad to do so?

            When things hurt so bad that you would opt for pain relief despite your initial desire not to do so, my response is “wow, that must have hurt a lot.” You, otoh, consider a personal failing?

          • Barbie B.

            All four of my children were born without pain meds, or any other type of pain relief. They were born beginning in 1975 and ending in 1980. It was very “trendy” then to have “natural” childbirth, and almost all of my friends and I who were pregnant at the same time took the also “trendy” childbirth class of the day – Lamaze – to help you through the birthing process through breathing techniques and relaxation methods with the help of your birth coach, who was usually the husband.
            My first child was 16 days overdue, and my incompetent OB disregarded my concern when I told him, one week after my due date, that I felt my baby had turned to the side and my belly looked lopsided.
            When I started labor, it was difficult from the beginning, with a whole lot of bleeding initially. I had no more than five seconds between contractions the entire time I was in the hospital following the time my water broke, and the pain was unbearable. Still – no pain meds.
            When the baby was finally ready to be born and I started pushing, the OB said to the nurses, “the shoulder is presenting, we have to pull the baby over.” My baby was then born, a beautiful little girl weighing 9lbs. 2oz. and 21-3/4 in. Early the next morning, a neurologist came in to see me. He said they had noticed that my daughter’s left arm was not “working,” and he had determined she had some type of nerve damage, and that either her arm would “work” or it would hang at her side – he didn’t know – and all I could do is take her home and “give her a lot of love.” He then walked out of the room. Never gave me time for questions – nothing! He was in and out in 5 mins. and his bill was $50. For 1975, that was a whole lot of money considering my OB and hospital stay together was $800. Luckily, my husband came in my room immediately afterwards and I was able to come unglued at the seams with him to comfort me.
            My point is, I was a young 18 year old mother who knew very little about childbirth and certainly didn’t think about complications. I just went with the trend of the day because that’s what everyone was doing. I’m glad that women are more vocal about how they want to give birth, and make the choices THEY want to make. But that being said, I am thankful I was in the hospital when my baby was born because what on earth would have happened at home, with a midwife and a shoulder presenting.
            It turned out that I paid very close attention to my baby’s arm, and noticed that it did move from the wrist down, so I knew the nerves were not severed and the damage was probably in the upper arm. I worked with her arm every day and at about 3 mos. old, she finally began to raise her arm, and bring it across her tummy. My pediatrician said that was a miracle and that usually if a baby’s arm is not moving in that way by 3 weeks, it will never move – so I do thank the good Lord above for that miracle. Her arm is not perfect, but if you really didn’t know the story, you probably would not notice her shoulder and elbow are a little different. The pediatrician (who was also MY pediatrician) said my baby should have been taken by C-section as she was way to big for me to give birth to, which is why she “turned” a week past my due date.
            I was very fortunate there were not more dire consequences of having an inept OB, who chose not to listen to his patient, which proves there are OB’s out there that could be much worse than a midwife without all the proper training. I later learned this OB had been sued multiple times for birthing “accidents.”
            I know this is a VERY long story, and for that, I apologize, but the lesson in all of this ladies – do your research – a whole lot of research – and make sure you choose the right person/people (with the right experience, and great reviews from other women who have used them), to help you deliver your baby, and don’t do something just because it’s “trendy.” Looking back, I probably would have chosen an epidural if I would have had the option back then because the only birth that I felt was even remotely “easy” was my 4th child. Of course, my husband wasn’t very interested in that birth and spent most of his time out of my room, so maybe HE was the problem causing most of my pain – lol.

          • SporkParade

            Because when you say that you are “proud” that you were “strong” enough to do it all natural, then you are implicitly saying that women who are not physically able or just not interested in having an unmedicated vaginal delivery should be ashamed for being weak.

          • Medwife

            You know, she was in a hospital, she wasn’t doing anything dangerous. She wasn’t refusing life saving care. Details beyond that are unimportant.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            She felt the need to share, so apparently, to her, the details ARE important.

          • CharlotteB

            Having an un-medicated birth is nothing to be proud of–billions of women have done it. I’ve done it. It’s not special. Assuming everything is going well, the pain, by itself, won’t damage you physically. But seriously? Being proud of yourself for enduring “natural” childbirth is like being proud that you can poop by yourself. Slow clap. Would you like a gold star?

          • Julie

            Geez…No need to get your panties in a bunch. I’m proud enough said. You raising a type 1 diabetic? I am! Where’s your cape super mom.

          • Amy

            Nobody’s getting anyone’s “panties” in a bunch. Motherhood isn’t a competition. Am I supposed to feel bad or less of a mother because neither of my children have diabetes, for example? And stop moving the goal posts. The original discussion was about whether or not forgoing an epidural is something to be commended– that has absolutely NOTHING to do with one’s children’s medical conditions or anything else that might make parenting a challenge.

          • Kq

            Fuck you

            – a mother who had pain relief and a baby saving c section and is tired of bullshit like you have spewed

          • FEDUP MD

            Fine, you want to move the goalposts? I had an emergency c-section and my spinal failed, so for several minutes until they got me under general anesthesia, I felt them opening my abdomen and moving my organs around without any anesthetic. That’s right, major surgery with no anesthesia! I don’t take any special pride in it, it really sucked. I really wish it hadn’t happened, and I really hope no woman has to endure it either.

          • Julie

            ” you were about ready to want one”….No not at all. I’ve never wanted an epidural. I’m too afraid of the teeny tiny chance they could hit the wrong spot and I’d become paralyzed. I’d rather take the pain!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            No not at all. I’ve never wanted an epidural.

            You said you are about to give in. Why would you give in if you didn’t want an epidural?

            By the way, you are changing your story. Now you say it was because you didn’t want the risk of the wrong spot, but below you said it was about “pride.” Those are not the same thing.

          • Julie

            Ok if you’re getting nit-picking. My original fear was hitting the wrong spot. That’s why I didn’t get one with my first child, then for my 2nd I thought why get one now if I didn’t need one in the first place. With my 3rd it was a pride thing. That’s also why I didn’t immediately say yes when she asked if I wanted an epidural. When she said it was too late for IV drugs I thought “WTH I only have 2 cm to go, you’d be stupid to get one now” Then boom…10 cm! This all literally happened in a matter of 2 min…I was at 8. She said only epidural. I thought for a second about getting one then felt the urge to push. I’m glad it happened the way it did.

          • EllenL

            It isn’t nit-picking to point out that epidurals don’t lead to an increase in C sections.

            Women may be denying themselves effective pain relief – or their caregivers may deny it to them – based on an erroneous assumption.

            Perpetuating myths about epidurals is a disservice to women.

          • Julie

            Plus, I’d been to nursing school and have my license so i was aware of the risk factors that go into play when epidurals are involved. The risk of c-section go up. Don’t say it doesn’t…it was something my OB and I discussed at a prenatal visit

          • Stacy48918

            No, an epidural does not increase the risk of a C-section. Even if given in early labor (<4cm).

          • Jocelyn

            I know you just said “don’t say it doesn’t,” but um, it doesn’t.

            “Since the last Committee Opinion on analgesia and cesarean delivery, additional studies have addressed the issue of neuraxial analgesia and its association with cesarean delivery. Three recent meta-analyses systematically and independently reviewed the previous literature, and all concluded that epidural analgesia does not increase the rates of cesarean delivery (odds ratio 1.00–1.04; 95% confidence interval, 0.71–1.48) (11–13). In addition, three recent randomized controlled trials clearly demonstrated no difference in rate of cesarean deliveries between women who had received epidurals and women who had received only intravenous analgesia (5–7). Furthermore, a randomized trial comparing epidurals done early in labor versus epidurals done later in labor demonstrated no difference in the incidence of cesarean delivery (17.8% versus 20.7%) (5). The use of intrathecal analgesia and the concentration of the local anesthetic used in an epidural also have no impact on the rate of cesarean delivery (5, 13–15).”

            TL;DR: Epidurals don’t increase your chance of a c-section. Tons of studies have proven it.

            All of the studies referenced can be found here: http://www.acog.org/Resources-And-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Obstetric-Practice/Analgesia-and-Cesarean-Delivery-Rates

          • Nick Sanders

            “The risk of c-section go up.”

            Do you mean that c-sections become riskier if performed on women who have had an epidural, or that women that take an epidural are more likely to have ac-section? If the former, can you cite some statistics? If the latter, what makes that a “risk”?

        • Cobalt

          My third was my easiest, too. Oddly enough, that’s a really typical experience, regardless of pain management choices.

        • Roadstergal

          “I lucked out and had a wonderful nurse who allowed me to make the decision to not get an epidural when I was about to give in.”

          That’s a lot of disturbing to fit into one sentence.

          • Julie

            How is this disturbing? It may sound confusing, but it’s not meant to

        • momofone

          Unless it doesn’t.

        • araikwao

          Hospitals want epidurals? Funny, because I’ve heard plenty of hospital MWs complain about all the extra paperwork they have to do when women choose an epidural. Maybe that’s part of why they try to talk women out of them, or just deny them..

        • Stacy48918

          Do you have a single paper citation demonstrating that epidurals increase the rate of C-sections?

          I think your ending comment about “your body knows what to do” is particularly funny on a post about Jill Duggar Dillard…whose body clearly DIDN’T know what to do, which is why she transferred to the hospital. If our body’s “know what to do” – why bother with doctors or midwives at all?

        • Interventions aren’t done for shits and giggles. It’s because while your body surely knows what to do, that knowledge doesn’t translate to correct bone structure, fetal weight and position, unforeseen medical problems requiring prompt emergency care, organs that insist upon rupturing, meconium inhalation…

          Your refusal to have a home birth when the possibility of complications arose makes me believe that you know this, despite everyone’s talk of trusting birth.

          You, knowing your body, knew commonsensically that so many things went wrong with our foremothers birthing in the fields that something requiring our miracle of modern science could happen. When it saves the baby’s life, that knowledge is what’s best, not a blind refusal of interventions.

          Your son had to spend time in the NICU; thank god you were able to have those interventions and didn’t have to labor on your own at home.

    • Dr Kitty

      Actually no, England has announced that homebirth may be safer for MOTHERS than hospital birth, while possibly increasing the risks to babies, which is not quite the same thing.

      • SuperGDZ

        And even then, only for CERTAIN mothers

    • The Computer Ate My Nym


      there is the whole growing host of women who schedule sections so it is convenient for them

      And this is bad…why? Because birth should be painful, awkward and inconvenient and it’s cheating to make it not so?

  • angelita

    wow i think you need to research your ideas before you just go out and post whatever you “think” are the correct facts. first of all, many women choose home birth and a large percentage of them give birth at home successfully. if there is a problem, the midwife will ensure the mother to be gets to the hospital in a timely fashion, if one lives more than twenty minutes away from a hospital, emergency personnel such as fire department, etc. are notified in advance that a home birth is in progress so they are aware and ready if they are needed. second, i had a certified midwife as my caregiver during my first pregnancy, and she was AMAZING! yes i gave birth in a hospital (my choice) but she was so much more supportive and kind and more involved in my pregnancy and birth than my second and third children’s providers (and they were wonderful doctors! i would have had the same midwife but my insurance changed and i was in a different locale). and by the way, in the netherlands, the UK, and australia, home births are more common than in the US. don’t know where you got your info from but it is NOT the truth, so get over yourself and stop trying to degrade jill’s choices.

    • Stacy48918

      Glad to hear that “A large percentage of them give birth at home successfully”.

      Too bad about the ones that don’t I guess. You’re must be more comfortable with tiny coffins than we are.

      • Who?

        Perhaps they are all in the tiny coffin business? Honestly, can these people hear themselves?

      • Deborah Starrett

        My sister was at a hospital when she gave birth to a daughter that was still born, as are a lot of women. So the comment about tiny coffins is very insensitive in any conversation. I am sure there are a lot of mothers that are reading this and just like me as an aunt would love to show you what a tiny coffin really looks like.

        • Cobalt

          I understand your sensitivity, but there really are babies dying in the hands of unqualified midwives. It’s not graceless hyperbole, or thoughtless exaggeration.

          I’m sorry for your family’s loss, there is nothing on this earth that can repair a child-shaped hole in a family.

          • Deborah Starrett

            I agree that home birth is not a good idea, my water broke in the middle of the night. I lived 25 or more miles from the hospital. IF I had given birth at home my daughter would have joined her little cousin up in the sky. She was breech, footling position so a midwife would not have been able to safely deliver my daughter. As it was I had an emergency C-section. You were one of three to reply to my comment. You did not repeat the “phrase” I thought was insensitive. Thank you for your understanding, my sister lost her daughter in Feb. 1982, my daughter was born in May of the same year. 33 years ago but my sister still grieves the loss of her daughter.

          • Cobalt

            Grief, like love, has no time limits.

            Again, I am very sorry for your family’s loss. Every lost child is a tragedy, every single one.

        • Stacy48918

          I am very sorry for your family’s loss. My comment was not meant to be insensitive but is in fact 100% relevant. Down thread Angelita states she is ok with babies dying at home because maybe they weren’t meant to live anyway. HER view is the insensitive one. Her views and those of other homebirth supporters do in fact lead to unnecessary death and tiny coffins. It’s not hyperbole but a fact that must be addressed so others lives can be spared.

          Again, my condolences.

        • Who?

          I’m sorry that happened in your famiy. There certainly are loss parents and other family members here, some of whom come out of the homebirth environment that shrugs and says ‘some babies aren’t meant to live’.

          That community shuns and punish people who raise concerns about babies’ deaths, and are very comfortable with tiny coffins, seeing them as a normal and inevitable fact of life.

    • Who?

      To our comments below, regulars, I offer you this post as further fodder.

      Jill chose hospital. Smart Jill.

      • Stacy48918

        No kidding. Angelita didn’t even bother to read the first comment below hers!

    • Cobalt

      Please, share your sources for the “correct” facts.

      MANA itself admits your baby is 450% more likely to die under the care of its midwives compared to hospital birth.

      • angelita

        Here’s your MANA information: http://mana.org/blog/home-birth-safety-outcomes

        • Stacy48918

          Cobalt has read it. You clearly haven’t. But prove me wrong. Please tell us in your own words what it says and how their findings compare to CDC statistics.

        • Cobalt

          Does that link to their safety study? The one that showed low risk homebirth is much more dangerous than high risk hospital birth?

        • Bugsy

          That’s a bogus link, FWIW. “This page doesn’t exist.”

    • momofone

      So are you saying that if you’re aware a home birth is in progress, you are on standby, meaning that you wouldn’t respond to, say, an accident call during that time, just in case you were needed at the birth?

      • angelita

        umm you do understand there are more firefighters/emt’s available than are needed for just one emergency? what do you think they do if there are more than one fires in the vicinity?

        • Cobalt

          In some areas it’s a major problem. There aren’t unlimited emergency services, and it reduces strain on the emergency response system when people don’t deliberately create additional emergencies.

          • angelita

            In our area, the hospital is 45 minutes away. There are firefighters and EMTs on duty at all times, for five 4th alarm assignments total.

          • Cobalt

            So many! I guess it’s fine to waste their services on a midwife’s vanity then. It’s not like unplanned, unpredictable, unavoidable emergencies will occur in those hours.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            Was a post deleted by the author? I see no reference to E

          • momofone

            I think several posts were deleted.

          • Stacy48918

            Selfish selfish selfish. “come park in my driveway for hours on end because hospitals are scary.”

          • Bombshellrisa

            In this area last week, there was a fire call, a call for
            Medics because a four year old fell from a second story window onto cement, a chest pain call from the assisted living and another chest pain call from the senior community all at the same time. The four year old was airlifted. A home birth in trouble call during that time would probably not have turned out well

          • Bugsy

            …and who pays for the cost of the emergency response system? My father went to the hospital by ambulance last year, and they’re still dealing w/ the costs. Is this something we all end up covering through insurance premiums? Does insurance even cover an emergency hospital transfer from home birth? (If I were an insurance company, I sure as heck would not want to cover home births and related complications…)

        • momofone

          I’m supposing that if you’re in a rural area, as I am, there would definitely be limited resources. However, I’d love for you to educate me.

          Just for clarity, in my area, if there were more than one fire, something would burn.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Even in a metropolitan area. We have many many fire stations in my small area and if there was more than one fire, someone would have to wait.

          • moto_librarian

            And don’t forget traffic in a metropolitan area! A mother at my children’s daycare is planning a home birth with her third. On a good day, we are 30 minutes from the closest hospital with a L&D, but 45 minutes is average. Traffic impacts the ability of EMS to get to you and transfer you. At rush hour, there is no way to pull over for them, and they weave between the right and left lanes. I am very worried for her.

        • Bombshellrisa

          What can an EMT do besides stabilize and transport during an emergency? I couldn’t do much beyond slap on some oxygen and give herbs waiting for an ambulance to show up when I attended home births.

          • Cobalt

            Then can probably get the mother to the hospital in time. Not so much the baby. There’s just too narrow a margin.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            They usually do not carry pitocin, so in case of a bleeding….apart from that, have you ever tried to get an IV on someone that is bleeding out???? It is extremely difficult because veins collapse when there is an important bleeding.

          • Bombshellrisa

            And some people (like me) have veins that don’t cooperate even when I am hydrated and not bleeding out. It took four attempts to get an IV in me during my last labor.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I know. I wish I did not know but I know… Too many patients with difficult veins…

          • Heather Rische

            ummm, CPM’s carry pitocin, methergine and in some states, Cytotec, for bleeding.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            But do they know how to use them? These drugs can be dangerous if misused or used without proper monitoring. Who ensures that the dose is correct, the monitoring adequate, and the administration performed correctly?

          • Heather Rische

            CPM’s are also trained in dosage, dangers, use, monitoring, administration, etc… of course. Obviously they couldn’t legally carry them without proper training.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            They’re trained? Really? How many times does the average CPM use Pitocin during her training? Zero? How many times does the average CPM use methergine during her training? Zero? How about Cytotec? Zero?

            Carrying those medications is like carrying a diaphragm for birth control. It won’t work if you don’t wear it, or if you’ve never had the experience of inserting it.

          • Heather Rische

            That’s your impression? Whacky. They are used frequently at the birth centers where most CPM’s trained, and in home birth practices during apprenticeship. That’s odd that you believe they are not used. Sounds like you really haven’t done the research on this subject on which you claim to be an expert. Trust me, we all learn how to give an IM injection, and get lots of practice. Because some midwives also use herbs, you must have gotten the ill-researched opinion that they don’t use the meds as well.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You’ve never used them, right? Not even a single time, right?

          • Daleth

            She certainly would have said so by now, if she had. So you’re undoubtedly right.

          • Daleth

            CPMs are trained in dosage, etc…. by WHOM?

          • Heather Rische

            By the midwives who train them, who operate under the state guidelines which usually fall under the department of health, including a midwifery board staffed by OB’s, CNM’s, Family Practitioners, Consumers, CPM’s. The dosages are set in the training and practice guidelines and are approved and changed as new research comes to light. The prescriptions and/or standing orders by the collaborating doctors also specify dose. Who trained the first modern midwives to give an IM injection? (or phlebotomy, or to run an IV) I don’t know. Probably nurses and doctors. We are still trained by doctors and nurses for NRP and IV certification. Anyways, I appreciate your honest questions versus flat out insanity but I do have to get on with my day.

          • Heather Rische

            (and I’d like to add here that cytotec, used off-label by impatient OB’s has caused several maternal deaths)

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Yet CPMs have been responsible for more deaths than Cytotec yet you think they’re safe. How can that be?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Yep. And how do you know this? Because the deaths were reported, root cause analyses performed, and common features defined. And as a result changes in protocol were instituted.

            What happens when a CPM loses a baby? She says “so sad” and goes back to doing exactly what she was doing before. No one stops her, no one demands that she examine her protocols and consider whether any of them are doing more harm than good, no one stops her from practicing in an unsafe manner.

            There are definitely bad OBs out there. There are hospital administrators, other doctors, nurses, pharmacists and lawyers looking over their shoulders. And when they do the wrong thing things change. Where is that control for CPMs?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Also, earlier you said, “CPM’s carry pitocin, methergine and in some states, Cytotec, for bleeding.” Use of Cytotec in labor is no more on label when CPMs do it than when OBs do.

          • Heather Rische

            It has been shown to be safe for hemorrhage (benefits outweighing risks). We don’t use it to induce. As I said above (or somewhere), I’m extracting myself from this page, because I somehow had the impression that Amy had done her research before assuming things about the CPM credential that are untrue and then acting legit crazy when challenged. Your comment is a reasonable one. However, I’m out of here.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            It has been shown to be safe for hemorrhage (benefits outweighing risks).

            What’s the data on that? It’s not an area I’m all that familiar with.

          • Medwife

            Cytotec is awesome for PPH. It’s my next drug after pitocin.

          • Daleth

            Exactly. That knowledge is exactly what a MEDICAL EDUCATION is for. And there are no educational requirements of CPMs, much less medical education requirements.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Do you carry them, Heather? How many times have you used them? What would they do for a piece of retained placenta? What do you do when they don’t stop the bleeding?

            Seeing as you’re a CPM, perhaps you can tell me how much blood loss will lead to hemorrhagic shock and death, and how fast that could happen.

          • Heather Rische

            Oh sweetheart, I think we both know the metrics and the individuality from patient to patient in regards to the meds, the metrics and the well-established fact that mothers at home birth die less than in hospital. Of course I carry them. And I transfer when needed for bleeding. Twice last year. All good.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Bullshit. You, like most CPMs are utterly clueless and no amount of calling me “sweetheart” will divert attention from that fact.

            You’ve never used these medications even a single time and you’re boasting that you CARRY them? Do you have an idea how stupid and dangerous that is? Obviously not.

            Your ignorance and hubris are appalling. YOU are unqualified to care for pregnant women.

            There’s no evidence that the maternal death rate is lower at homebirth since no one has ever done a large enough study. I know of 2 maternal homebirth deaths that occurred within days of each other in December. That doesn’t sound like a low death rate to me.

          • Heather Rische

            LOL, Ok, bored now. I wonder what I was doing all of those times that I administered them? It was a dream? Or all of the times I observed them being given, then graduated to being allowed to administer in training… Some weird delusion, I guess. Didn’t realize how unreasonable you actually are… I’ve heard tell, but, wow. Lesson learned. I gotta’ go restock my imaginary meds kit. With the fairies. LOL. i just had no idea how little you actually knew about our qualifications and training. I figured you’d done the research.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Don’t waste our time, Heather. We know you are lying. And you haven’t answered my question about what volume loss leads to hemorrhagic shock and death and how fast that can happen. Don’t know or won’t say?

          • attitude devant

            How dare you question Heather’s credentials? I looked her up! She has completed a Birth art course at Birthing from Within!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Are you serious?

          • KarenJJ

            Doubt it 🙂

            WTF is Birth art?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Please don’t let it be the “painting with a placenta” class. I just can’t….

          • attitude devant

            Absolutely! Her website is entertaining, to say the least. She includes teaching a children’s art class among her relevant jobs

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Wow, we do attract the serious loons here, don’t we?

            This seems to happen a lot. We have vocal participants, and when you find out who they are you discover that they have a lot of, um, entertaining aspects in their lives.

          • Daleth

            She charges $3000 cash to be someone’s midwife, and then there are other fees on top of that (patients have to pay for Rhogam testing, ultrasounds etc.).
            http://www.mymidwifeheather.com/fees.html
            Good lord. There are so many Obamacare and private insurance plans with deductibles on the order of $1500, $1000, $500…. so birthing with her apparently costs several times more than birthing in the hospital. Way to serve the working poor of New Mexico, Heather!

          • Kelly

            They pay that and if they do end up going to a hospital they have to pay that too. You know the nice thing about paying medical bills is that you can pay monthly with no interest? They will also work with you sometimes on the cost. Do midwives do that? I am on a monthly plan to pay my OB ahead of time for prenatal visits and tests and the delivery. If for some reason I don’t end up delivering with them, guess what, I get my money back. Do midwives give money back if they don’t make it and/or don’t deliver the baby? I know that medical expenses are ridiculous here but paying a midwife is not the answer to saving you money at all.

          • Daleth

            Ooh, me me!!! (Waves hand). I can tell you what volume of blood loss causes hemorrhagic shock, a.k.a. hypovolemic shock, because it happened to me! In a hospital, which is why I’m still here to tell you about it!

          • Heather Rische

            The crazy train has left the station. The research lady has not done her research (very curious where you get your info, really) and I am crazy for continuing to engage. However, 20% of blood volume causes hypovolemic shock… Gotta’ go, folks. It’s been real. I am so glad that you have shown me that my reality and the reality of the >100 midwives I have known, worked with and trained with are all imagining the anti-hemorrhagic medications we both CARRY and ADMINISTER. Good day. I’m out. Lesson learned.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Be sure to stick the flounce!

            And thanks ever so much for demonstrating the deadly lack of experience of homebirth midwives. A homebirth midwife as just as useful as a woman who offers to hold your infant in place of buckling him in a carseat, proclaiming herself an expert in normal car rides, and promising to transfer to the hospital in the event of a crash.

          • Stacy48918

            She ain’t your “sweetheart”. Stop being such a paternalist.

            And you seriously can’t answer the question? It’s a simple numbers game. 2% of blood volume? 5%? 10%? 20%? I know the number for a dog off the top of my head. Why can’t you answer such a simple question?

          • momofone

            Oh, “sweetheart”, it’s crystal clear that you’re attempting to divert attention by being condescending so you don’t have to address her questions in full. And when someone pushes you, it’s suddenly time to “disengage” again (though you’re a pretty safe bet to return).

          • Montserrat Blanco

            I have read in various CPMs blogs and FB pages that it is forbidden for them to administer those drugs. It makes sense as they are not doctors or nurses, if you have different information from a more reliable source, please post the link.

          • Ash

            It’s actually a state by state thing.

            Some states allow CPMs to carry certain medications.

            For example, see Wisconsin

            https://wisconsinguildofmidwives.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/standardsofpractice.pdf

          • Heather Rische

            http://www.newmexicomidwifery.org/images/uploads/NMMA_2008_practice_guidelines.pdf

            Should be in there. ^^^ I think in states that the CPM or LM credential isn’t accepted, you may be correct. It varies from state to state, but many of us need standing orders/prescriptions from an MD to carry all of the meds we do, including oxygen, Vitamin K, etc. I think many midwives in illegal states still carry the meds, because it would be stupid not to.

          • Daleth

            I’m glad to see that New Mexico prohibits home-birth midwives from attending the births of multiples, babies in any position other than head down, and births before 37 weeks. Unfortunately I wouldn’t be surprised if there are NM HB midwives who purposely flout those requirements by, for instance, accepting women who have refused all ultrasounds (so there’s no way to be sure how many are in there and, unless ultrasounds were done very early, no way to know the exact gestational age), writing in her notes that the baby was vertex at labor onset when it wasn’t or she doesn’t know what position it was in, etc.

          • Daleth

            Pitocin wasn’t enough to stop my hemorrhage–I needed IV fluids. Fortunately, I was in the hospital. Sadly for her and her family, Caroline Lovell wasn’t. She bled to death:

            http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/home-birth-mother-caroline-lovell-pleaded-for-help-before-her-death-20150317-1m17lo.html

          • Heather Rische

            Yes, we are IV certified as well, but would transfer if the need for IV was indicated anyways, as prolonged care would be required.

          • Daleth

            If a midwife had transferred me from my house, by the time I got to the hospital I would have already bled to death. And I live in a major metropolitan area, it’s not like the hospital is all that far away. The reason I’m alive is that I was in the hospital.

            Like most if not all US hospitals this one required heplocks, and there was an IV bag of fluids hanging next to me in recovery just in case, and I was hooked up to monitors despite an uncomplicated delivery so that they would immediately see if my blood pressure was dropping. (My bleeding was almost entirely internal–without monitors they would not have noticed what was happening). Because of all that, there was no delay in getting the fluids into me.

          • Bombshellrisa

            What about in the case of GBS positive patients? In my state, CPMs still attend those births and give IV antibiotics.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Okay, now that we have established that you’ve never administered any of the IM medications that you boast of carrying, let find out a bit more. When was the last time you successfully started an IV on a patient? Never? And how many times have you performed infant CPR on a patient? Was it successful?

          • Daleth

            PS what’s your definition of prolonged care?

          • Heather Rische

            Sorry, I’m going to respectfully disengage. I am replying to you because your questions and comments have been sane and reasonable. Not so much elsewhere on this page, and I had no idea that Amy has actually not done her research on CPM training…somehow thought she had. I’m extracting myself. It’s getting crazy up in here! I respect your concern for women and babies. best of luck.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            am replying to you because your questions and comments have been sane and reasonable.

            …and then you didn’t reply to her question.

            Just like you avoided everyone else’s questions that have been asked of you.

          • Heather Rische

            Untrue, but the definition of disengage is pretty clear. good day.

          • Daleth

            It’s too bad that you’re choosing to disengage. Unlike a number of other non-CNM midwives or other homebirth advocates who have come to this site, you’ve discussed things reasonably and mostly respectfully (calling a woman you don’t know “sweetheart” in a sarcastic way, as in “sweetheart, you have no clue,” is not respectful, but mostly you have been).

            I’m still confused by your belief that (if I’m understanding your post correctly) Dr. Tuteur is mistaken about what training is required to get CPM status. Most of us here have already (long ago) gone to the NARM website to look up what is required to become a CPM. It’s right here:
            http://narm.org/certification/how-to-become-a-cpm/

            …and it’s just true, unfortunately, that there are absolutely zero educational requirements (unless, as I said, you count reading stuff at your house without supervision as “education”) and the clinical requirements are scanty (40-50 births is VERY few).

            And I don’t think anybody is saying CPMs can’t catch babies safely most of the time–of course they can, because statistically most births go fine. Home births without a midwife in attendance have a neonatal death rate of 18.2/10,000; in other words even without a midwife babies very rarely die. I’m one of those 10,000 who was just fine–the midwife went home, telling my mother (incorrectly as it happened) that I wouldn’t be there until morning, and my dad caught me.

            And I for one do not discount the emotional support you can offer a birthing mama.

            HOWEVER, most home birth midwives cannot handle true emergencies; that’s why you typically transfer when such emergencies arise. For instance, PPH? You just can’t, unless you monitor carefully enough and long enough to detect internal bleeding, carry pitocin, know how to use it AND it works (which it doesn’t always). Hospitals have heplocks, IV fluids and matched blood on hand. You don’t; you just don’t.

            And the reason people here have a problem with home birth is because–well, two reasons: first, there’s no way to know in advance how someone’s labor is going to go; and second (and probably more important), in America most home-birth midwives reject any call for them to operate under standards that would require them to risk out high-risk patients. There are HB midwives who accept mono-di twins, for god’s sake–which is crazy because in addition to the fact that most twins come prematurely, mono-di is so high risk that moms who labor in the hospital are required to labor in the OR. It’s just so bizarre, don’t you think, for HB midwives to be saying on the one hand, “Home birth is safe for low risk moms,” and on the other hand… to accept patients who are NOT low risk!

          • Daleth

            If a midwife had transferred me from my house when she realized that “the need for IV was indicated,” I would have been dead by the time I got there. And I live in a major metropolitan area–it’s not because the hospital is far away that I would’ve been dead. It’s because postpartum hemorrhage can kill within 20 minutes, easily.

            So here’s what saved me: being in a hospital. And here’s why it saved me:

            – They required heplocks for all delivering women, so there was no delay getting the IV fluids into my deflating veins.

            – In recovery they had an IV bag of fluids hanging next to me “just in case,” as they do with all new moms, so again, no delay.

            – They were monitoring my vitals as I rested in recovery, so although my hemorrhage was entirely internal (and thus could have gone unnoticed for a while), they spotted it immediately and suddenly three doctors burst into the room and went to work on me.

          • moto_librarian

            You also probably aren’t very good at it if you don’t do them routinely. Same with NRP. Color me unimpressed.

          • moto_librarian

            And what would you do for a cervical laceration? Pit and cytototec do nothing for that. Can you do a manual exam of the uterus without assistance? Do you carry the tools to do that? How long do you wait to call for help?

            These are not academic questions. I had this exact complication, fortunately, in a hospital after a natural birth. I still almost got a blood transfusion, despite prompt diagnosis and treatment in the OR. I have had several CPMs tell me that it could have been manages at home, but at least one admitted that LifeFlight would be my best chance.

          • Roadstergal

            LifeFlight and the like aren’t cheap, and aren’t covered under a lot of insurance plans. I’ve known people who were helicoptered to the hospital after motorcycle accidents, and it was $50,000+ out-of-pocket despite them having medical insurance. Aside from the risk to mom and baby, add the risk of bankruptcy…

          • demodocus’ spouse

            Not to mention it could take the helicopter 30 minutes to get to the hospital.

        • Montserrat Blanco

          You know what? A firefighter has ZERO training on how to resuscitate a newborn. If your baby needs resuscitation you’d better get someone that does it regularly. And no, someone with 40 births a year is not well versed on that.

          • Who?

            At least the firies wouldn’t be blowing cinamon around and simultaneously covering their arses-they are probably the better bet in that case.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            That is SO true!!!!

            Or saying to the woman: “Stop bleeding!!!”

          • Who?

            Or not noticing she is bleedng, or ‘losing’ whatever pathetic excuses they had for notes, or making some up, or going to crowdsource what to do next…

            The options are endless.

          • Karen in SC

            Most lay people don’t even realize that neonatal resuscitation is a specific skill that nurses and other medical personnel train on and re-certify after a few years!! Not only the skill, but specialized equipment.

            Some homebirth midwives have an adult oxygen mask only, if that, and may not even have a full tank of O2 at the ready.

          • Bugsy

            It was really reassuring to me that when my son was being born (low-risk OB-attended hospital birth), that the neonatal team was literally right there in case things went wrong. Why on earth would anyone want to give birth without such a safety net?

          • Heather Rische

            CPM’s must carry PPV equipment for newborns and must recert in NRP as often as everyone else.

          • Medwife

            They often don’t have pulse oxes for the baby (now standard of care in NRP), deep suction, or an O2 mixer, let alone a team at hand. If you’re at a birth with one assistant, someone needs to be on mom. What if you just had a shoulder dystocia, with a baby now in need of resuscitation, and a hemorrhaging mom- happens a lot after SD. Someone is resuscitating the baby by herself while the other, probably the assistant with god knows what training, managing a PPH. You’re telling me that doesn’t worry you?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Heather, with all due respect, how many people have you resuscitated in your life? Have you got any idea of the amount of training and re-training that it takes?

            I have to re-train every 2 years in order to be in good shape for it just in case. I have performed CPR more times than I would like already and if you are not used to do it and well trained the person has ZERO chances. ZERO. It is pretty different to perform CPR on a model than on a real person. A neonate… Without a team with a lot of experience a neonate has no chances at all.

          • D/

            “CPM’s must carry PPV equipment for newborns and must recert in NRP as often as everyone else.”

            So how often would you estimate that CPMs engage in resuscitation simulations?

            Here’s the thing about competencies, the more infrequent a critical event that requires technical skills happens the more important it is that it be regularly practiced. Even in the hospital setting most health care staff don’t maintain their skills of resuscitation by simply re-certifying every 2 years, stuffing equipment in a drawer and then waiting for an actual emergency. The ones who can do that are in trauma centers, (neonatal) intensive care units, etc. And they can do that because they get all the “practice” that makes them not just proficient, but rather experts. For the rest of us (which should certainly include CPMs at home births) frequent review and periodic simulation is necessary.

            In addition to required 2 year re-certifications in CPR and NRP, plus the real life practice that NICU and L&D staff members get in actual emergencies and resuscitations, both of the hospitals I work at require participation in neonatal mock codes (and post-partum maternal hemorrhage scenarios). These events come complete with mannequin simulators and video debriefings are scheduled 1-2 times (or more) per year, pull in everyone from all of the Maternal-Child units and focus not just on the equipment skills but also on the necessary teamwork aspect of these emergencies

            Now imagine a CPM who is “carrying PPV equipment for newborns and re-certifying in NRP as often as everyone else” trying to use equipment she may not have touched or thought about in up to 2 years to resuscitate a unresponsive baby. This is why so many CPMs will use mouth-to-mouth as their primary resuscitation plan for ventilation. They are unwilling or unable to become skilled and remain proficient in the use of PPV equipment … and being under equipped, under skilled and overly confident in trusting birth to the point that risk factor after risk factor become just variations of normal is why “valuing the art of letting go and acknowledging death and loss as possible outcomes of pregnancy and birth” becomes a necessary philosophy!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Here’s the thing about competencies, the more infrequent a critical event that requires technical skills happens the more important it is that it be regularly practiced.

            I had CPR training in high school. Who needs EMTs?

          • D/

            Or even I had “medical” training in high school. Who needs OBs?

            From a birth professional forum:

            “well a lay midwife- is by definition a person who assists but does not have any formal training. But it is quite a stretch in modern America for just about anyone in mainstream culture to not have had some level of “medical” training- in order for me to graduate high school I had to pass a first aid class and that involved a whole list of things- including rescue breathing, bandaging , heart and respiration assessment, life saving in many situations … and beyond that we all have medical experiences and influences”

        • DaisyGrrl

          There is only one firefighter/emt unit within a 20 minute drive from my house. I live very close to a large urban center. If there’s more than one fire/car crash in the area, you just have to wait the 20-30 minutes for backup. Can you hold your breath that long? A baby can’t.

          Women in rural areas almost certainly don’t have multiple emergency responders on standby for when they’re in labor. Take that 20-30 minute wait and stretch it to an hour.

        • Mac Sherbert

          Have you talked to any emergency responders? Some days they do nothing some days they never return to the firehouse. Just because they are lots of emergency responders in your area doesn’t mean that’s true for everyone. My small town has had trouble keeping an Ambulance service in town because they can’t make money.

          • Dr Kitty

            My city of 500,000 people has 7-9 ambulances at any one time, involved in everything from 999 response to RTC to transporting patients between hospitals for procedures.

            If an elderly, confused patient of mine who lives alone has to wait 2-4 hrs for transport to hospital for treatment of her UTI, as it is, if even10% of the 40-50 women giving birth in the city every day decided to Homebirth it would put a significant drain on ambulance resources.

            There is no way 50% of the vehicles could be “put on standby” just in case.
            That is nonsensical.
            You’d get 8-15 minute target response to a 999 call, with first available vehicle diverted ASAP like everyone else.
            So…still 20-30 minutes before you got to hospital from when you make the call.

            I’ve called ambulances services for enough strokes, MIs and collapses to know how it goes.

          • Who?

            It’s hard to know sometimes when to call. We’ve been talking a bit about snakebite what with all the snakes around at the moment. Do you call the ambulance if you’re sure it was ‘just’ a python, or do you apply first aid and head off to the hospital? A number of the world’s most venomous snakes routinely shed skins in our corner of the suburbs.

            I rang the museum once to speak to a herpetologist to identify a snake-the receptionist wouldn’t put me through until I’d assured her no one was bitten.

            The first aid is pretty good, and will probably hold the bitee for a while even if the snake recognition scores an E for effort. My view is call the ambos, particularly if the victim has to move much to get out-since moving is the bad thing to do-but I don’t know.

          • KarenJJ
          • Dr Kitty

            Snakebite- fine- call 999!
            The bane of my life are phone calls with presenting complaint of “just don’t feel right”, “funny turn”, “not quite at myself” calls from older people, who don’t want to go to hospital, and just want a Dr out to see them.

            Those can mean everything from massive MI or dense hemiplegic stroke to mild indigestion or just being lonely and wanting a chat.

            Sometimes, if I can get a good history, I’ll advise them to call 999, but most of the time it ends up being a house call to assess, and I’m never really sure what I’ll see when I get there…

            One of my colleagues had a “she’s just very low and not very talkative” turn out to mean “dead with rigor mortis well set in” when he got to the house.

          • Medwife

            You know, as an American, that’s something I’ve taken for granted when doing phone triage. I’m either telling them to take a bath and some Tylenol, or to come in to be evaluated, or to call 911. Never do I have to make home visits.

          • Dr Kitty

            Home visits, to be clear are for the elderly and housebound, palliative (hospice) patients, the severely mentally unwell who may require hospitalisation against their wishes and people in residential or nursing homes.

            I don’t do house calls for kids who usually come to the practice (if you think your child needs to be seen immediately by a doctor, and you can’t physically drive them, put them in a pram and walk here with them, get a lift from a neighbour or call a taxi, you need to call an ambulance, because if they get sicker you won’t be able to cope, and you already think they are very sick).

            I also do not do housecalls for usually well adults. Again, if you’re normally able to come and see me, and you are currently unable to get out of bed, you need a hospital, not me with a BP cuff and stethoscope and very little else in terms of diagnostic or treatment options.

            Our practice of 6000 patients has, on average, 3-5 house call requests a day, with 2 or 3 doctors to do them, sometime over the lunch period.
            Not my favourite thing, especially the complex social care ones that take ages to sort out, and involve phone calls to multiple relatives and agencies.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve heard of British understatement, but… wow.

          • Dr Kitty

            Elderly people with poor vision, hearing and memory are not the most accurate historians, nor are they very good at assessing the health of their spouses.

            They also like to call the GP out without running it by the actual patient first. Nothing like a house call to an irate pensioner who denies any symptoms and is adamant they don’t need a doctor, while their spouse offers you tea and biscuits that they bought “specially for your visit, I had to get you out because he refuses to go and see you”.

      • NoLongerCrunching

        Was a post deleted by the author? I see no reference to someone being an EMT on standby above…

        • Nick Sanders

          “if one lives more than twenty minutes away from a hospital, emergency personnel such as fire department, etc. are notified in advance that a home birth is in progress so they are aware and ready if they are needed.”

          • Bugsy

            Heck no! My dad had a seizure unexpectedly last year and was rushed to the hospital. Thankfully, he recovered and is doing great. To know that the EMT staff could have been too busy for him due to being on stand-by for someone else’s poor choice is INFURIATING.

          • Daleth

            Well, to be fair, isn’t a lot of what EMTs have to deal with the result of someone’s poor choices? They attend drunk-driving accidents, crime scenes, frat houses where some idiot did something on a dare, etc. I don’t think people who choose to home birth are any less deserving of EMTs’ time than a drunk frat boy who jumped off a balcony.

          • Roadstergal

            No, but you can condemn drunken frat parties and call for action to reduce the preventable emergencies that arise from them.

          • Bugsy

            If it’s a matter that they’re standing by waiting for this poor decision, then yes, I think there’s a big difference. We know that drunk-driving accidents can occur, and also that crimes happen. The difference is that generally speaking, people don’t call the EMTs and state “I might be driving drunk tonight and want you on stand-by in case I need your assistance.”

            I don’t think it’s fair to have everyone’s shared resources on stand-by for people who know that their poor decisions may necessitate them.

          • Daleth

            I completely agree. There is no evidence that EMT’s do this at all–one random stranger on the internet coming to this forum and *claiming* that home births are somehow safe because EMTs know about them in advance and stand around on call does not make it *true* that EMTs do that.

            And I can’t imagine that they do, for the exact reason you and others state: it would be unfair (indeed, unethical) to everyone else in the community if EMTs stood around waiting, refusing to answer other calls, just in case a particular home-birth mom gets into trouble. It would be a complete waste of resources, too. EMTs are emergency responders–they respond to emergencies in progress–not babysitters paid to help prevent emergencies from happening.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            There is no evidence that EMT’s do this at all–one random stranger on the internet coming to this forum and *claiming* that home births are somehow safe because EMTs know about them in advance and stand around on call does not make it *true* that EMTs do that.

            It’s like the claim a few weeks back that the “ER is prepared for an emergency transfer.” Um, yeah, that’s what ERs do. They are ALWAYS prepared for an emergency transfer.

        • Heather Rische

          Meh, have had some EMT’s really not be much help. For example, a mom in very early (pretty much prodromal) labor with very nonreassuring fetal heart rate. (could happen easily to a woman planning a hospital birth as well, with no professional visiting her home to monitor baby) EMT’s are called for fastest passage to hospital, only to have them spend 20 minutes trying to get an IV in and not even registering the repeated pleas that MOM is fine, BABY needs to get out, now!

          • Daleth

            Hi Heather, that sounds like an incredibly stressful, not to mention dangerous (for the baby), situation. But um… isn’t it an example of why home birth is more dangerous than hospital birth?

          • Heather Rische

            As I said, most moms spend that portion of labor at home when planning to birth in hospital, so no. (considering no hospital staff drops by to monitor in early or prodromal labor)

          • Daleth

            Uh, I don’t think the point is what phase of labor she was in. The point is that the EMTs spent 20 minutes ignoring repeated pleas that mom was fine but the baby wasn’t. Think that would happen in a hospital?

          • Heather Rische

            I see what you mean, and I don’t think that exactly proves your point, as most women would not BE in the hospital yet… This happened to be a situation in which mom and baby were lucky that they chose home birth.

          • Daleth

            Let me put it another way so it’s more clear. If she had been in a later phase of labor–say, whatever the first phase is that most women present to the hospital in–do you think the EMTs would have behaved any differently?

            What I’m trying to say is that it’s not because it was early labor that the EMTs were focused on her and ignoring the baby. It’s because they were EMTs. They can’t do much for fetuses. All they can do is provide medical care to the person in front of them–not the person inside her.

            So if people are planning a home birth with the hope that paramedics will come save their baby if things start going wrong, that hope is sadly misplaced.

          • Heather Rische

            I agree. That hope is misplaced. There are several levels of EMT/paramedic and they are not all created equal. Some are great at neonatal resus, others, not so much. I haven’t personally had experience with home birth plans relying on EMT for anything but transfer. The midwives in a nearby town trained the paramedics in emergency birth at the community college for years.

          • moto_librarian

            “There are several levels of EMT/paramedic and they are not all created equal.”

            Huh. What other profession do we know of that works this way?

          • Medwife

            But you were already there. She had called for support, thinking she was in labor or about to be, right? A mom not planning a homebirth goes to the hospital when she feels she needs professional support. She would have spent a minimum 20 minutes on the monitor shortly after she walked in the door. There you go.

          • Heather Rische

            It was actually a colleague, but yes, she came to check on them. Of course we can’t know what would have happened otherwise but one possibility is an IUFD at home if they didn’t go in because most women stay home in early labor (and are sent home at <3cm, which she was). Thanks for respectful communication, Amy apparently hasn't done her research on the CPM credential and is acting certifiably insane when challenged, so I gotta go.

          • Medwife

            I know you’ve “disengaged” but any woman who comes in for almost any reason whatsoever is getting an NST. For rule out labor my patients are there for at least 1-2 hours, to determine if there’s cervical change happening. Monitoring obviously takes place. And if she goes from 2 to 3, I’d probably keep her, assuming she was amenable. This lady probably would have gotten proper care much more quickly had she not been planning a homebirth.

    • KarenJJ

      I’m Australian. Homebirths are not common, even though they’re free if you meet the criteria and live close enough to the hospital. Most people want the reassurance of being much closer to medical care.

    • Bombshellrisa

      In the UK, Australia and the Netherlands, Jill Duggar’s midwife would be unable to qualify to be a midwife. Midwives there do not learn by following a midwife around to people’s living rooms to watch a birth happen and call it midwifery training. The Netherlands has the worst perinatal mortality rates in Western Europe btw.

  • ArmyChick

    Home birth / Jill Duggar defenders…. I know you are all angry and butt hurt but I guarantee you that your anecdotal nonsense doesn’t stand a chance against science.

    Oh and one more thing: try checking your spelling before posting. It is very hard to take you seriously when half of your posts consists of misspellings and the other half consists of name calling.

    • Who?

      All that.

      We’re missing FODBA today, don’t know where he/she is, perhaps girding the loins for a final, magnificent strike?

    • dbistola

      I hate to get nasty but why, why oh why are most of these responses written SO poorly? I mean these commenters who are claiming to have an equal or better knowledge of birth than an ob, yet are fundamentally unable to type out a coherent thought. What’s annoying is not the fact that they write poorly (a lot of people do, due to a myriad of reasons, some very well could be out of their control), but the fact that they believe they possess so much knowledge, despite the fact that they write so poorly, or don’t seem to notice or care that they write poorly, are unable to spot their own deficiencies, and find it all so trivial.

      • dbistola

        and the sad reality is, many people (not all) who cannot write well do not read well either. Yet a lot of these commenters consider themselves as well versed in complex medical literature that would fly over the heads of most people.

        • Mac Sherbert

          The saying in education is “writing follows reading.”

      • Cobalt

        It’s almost as if they all had the same poor curriculum in school…

        • dbistola

          or all responded in a similar manner toward their coursework (what? no, I don’t need to do that…)

        • Stacy48918

          Maybe they also attended the SOTDRT (School of the Dining Room Table) like the Duggar kids….

          • ArmyChick

            LOL I have no words.

          • Stacy48918

            Glad you laughed, wish I could say it was original – It’s an inside joke from a Duggar snark site called Free Jinger.

      • ArmyChick

        I came across someone calling this blog “rediculous”.

        My head spun.

        PS: English is my second language and I am cringing over here.

        • dbistola

          Mine too! (admittedly, I was four or five when I learned English so that probably doesn’t count)

          • ArmyChick

            Haha I was 15 🙂 I was born here but raised overseas after my parents divorce. I lived in a third world country for almost 15 years and when I see people arguing about home birth and how superior it is while demonizing c-sections and modern medicine I get angry. My youngest uncle died during a home birth in the boonies in Brazil. My grandparents couldn’t afford to go to the hospital to deliver him.

            I am so thankful for modern medicine for saving me and my daughter.

          • dbistola

            Me too. I almost think that it is evil to make people suspicious of C-sections. We have the C-section to thank for so many people in our lives.

          • Stacy48918

            Just like the anti-vaxxers…they have no experience with vaccine preventable diseases, so they don’t see the big deal. Go to the Philippines and see kids with measles and come back and say its no big deal.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            Yup. As I’ve mentioned on here before, DH works in Africa for part of the year. He’s quite certain that if someone knew you were carrying the MMR vaccine through some areas of the country he works in, you’d get mugged for it. Everyone knows kids who died of measles there; it’s an epidemic.

          • Bugsy

            Crazy Lactivist told me last year that her husband wanted to move to the South Pacific for the _sole_ purpose of escaping toxins. I told her it wasn’t the best of ideas (although my gut response was much less PC). In retrospect, I should have encouraged them.

          • KarenJJ

            This was what first came to mind when talking about South Pacific and toxins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moruroa

          • Bugsy

            I should’ve recommended it to them. The whole thing seemed odd to me…considering how paranoid they are about toxins, why would they want to move to the same ocean that has Fukushima spillage?

            (Heck, I live on the Pacific myself and realize how ridiculous it sounds…but that’s their world.)

          • SporkParade

            And now most people who can afford to in Brazil give birth by maternal request C-section. But let us listen to the natural birth advocates talk about how “native” women learn not to fear birth. ::eye roll::

        • dbistola

          the most depressing one to me was the one someone referred to as a “self parody.” What a sad, confused individual, who seemed to have some hazy idea he/she was wrong but was unable to articulate on what or how
          : (

      • Who?

        Are we talking about poor education or general sloppiness though?

        I think it is interesting that they think it is petty or doesn’t matter. So who cares about detail, so long as the big picture suits? This may give some insight into the attitude to medical things-don’t bore them with details, big picture it’s likely to be fine.

        Court cases are fought over the placement of a comma, and people die when details are not attended to.

        • dbistola

          It is mostly the poor education, not the typos that most of us do. I would wager that most of them may believe that while their writing is far from perfect, that it is still understandable and coherent. I am sure that most are blissfully unaware of at least some of their shortcomings, and believe they are showcasing their strengths.

          • Who?

            Now that is really depressing.

          • Jennifer

            And as you both are touting your obvious superiority in terms of English and proper grammar, I feel the need to point out that you BOTH ended sentences with prepositions. Tisk, tisk. Any high school English teacher would have a FIT over that one. Awful high and mighty, aren’t we? Yet, look how the mighty have fallen.

          • momofone

            I understand. I’d probably start focusing on prepositions too if I couldn’t produce any studies that show what I believed they did.

          • Jennifer

            I have produced many references; sadly, those in this thread immediately dismissive of them are also the ones showing their own ignorance while belittling others. Humorous, indeed, and quite ironic that you have no problem pointing out the lack of grammar skills of many who post here; yet you lack the basic grammar knowledge necessary to observe when you have ended a sentence improperly. Hypocrisy comes in many forms.

          • momofone

            So in other words, you couldn’t find any.

            Producing references is not the same thing as producing credible references.

          • Cobalt

            Well, the one was credible. Completely irrelevant, but credible.

          • KarenJJ

            And yet we still don’t understand how those references back up your claims? A hint here would be to go to those studies and read them and let us know how they back up your claims. Many people here do know their information very well and you are getting dismissed because it is obvious that you don’t.

            I recommend reading The Adequate Mother’s blog on the side bar for up to date and relevant information on epidurals (she’s a practising Anaesthetist).

          • Cobalt

            Oddly enough, your references were out of date, irrelevant, or lacked credibility. You show your ignorance of the negative ramifications of promoting natural birth, belittling those who use facts to make decisions about their babies and bodies.

            And yes, it is humorous and ironic that you are clinging to a GRAMMAR rule that doesn’t exist to try claim intellectual superiority.

            Define “hypocrisy”.

          • Stacy48918

            Hitting “copy – paste” doesn’t mean you understand what’s written in the link.

          • Who?

            What became of those studies?

          • Cobalt

            Waiting on the analysis of the death rate in the Birthplace study, too.

          • Cobalt

            I have more bad news for you.

            http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/grammar-myths-prepositions/

            From Oxford Dictionaries, on ending sentences with prepositions.

          • Who?

            But is that an approved textbook?

          • Ruby

            It’s actually a myth that you shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition.

            http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/grammar-myths-prepositions/

      • Medwife

        The average American reads at about a 4th grade level, I’ve been taught.

        • dbistola

          I taught Language Arts for years, and it does seem like a lot of people’s reading abilities get stagnant somewhere after reaching an elementary level.

          • Mac Sherbert

            Which why I in High School I read the entire Lit book during class then started bringing my own books. Thankfully, my teachers just let me be as long as I turned in assignments. I just don’t get why the reading level falls off.

  • Ducky

    I, unfortunately, got into a debate that I’m, frankly, on the fence about. I’m in Australia and I’m guessing we do this a bit different here. We have the option of a home birth experience within the hospital environment. Most hospitals here have suites set up like a home, and the parents have contact with the midwife during the pregnancy and birth. But should anything go wrong, the hospital facilities are down the corridor. This option is a choice, and the parents are informed and in total control of the experience.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      And that isn’t bad, although you have worry about the ideology of the midwives, as the situation in the UK has shown.

    • Who?

      So not a home birth at all then. Home birth lite.

      And why would you want to be in control of something you don’t know anything about. I’d be scared to death if I had to fly a plane or manage a birth, and any others involved would be smart to be scared.

      Leave it to people who know all about it, I say.

    • dbistola

      even as it is, even with a hospital right near by, even with a perfectly healthy and strong mother, there is still a higher risk. Yes it is a choice, and this site does not advocate it being taken away, but that being said, I just don’t know why anyone (personally) would purposely elect a less safe option in something so important.

    • Cobalt

      The problem is that the most important part of the experience (the healthy mom and baby) is beyond your ability to control. You don’t get to decide if you’re going to hemorrhage, or have a prolapse, or if your baby will tolerate labor well or fit through your pelvis.

    • Bombshellrisa

      From what I understand about Australia, there are areas where homebirth is an option with trained midwives as long as you fit the criteria and it’s free. I don’t know anyone who has been able to do it because they were risked out.

      • Klain

        A friend just posted on Facebook that a homebirth in Australia would cost them $6000.

        • Who?

          Yes there are plenty of high charging cowboys everywhere. In cash, up front, no refunds, I’m guessing.

        • KarenJJ

          That’s because they are going privately because they either:
          a) don’t live near a public maternity hospital that has a home birth program
          b) have been “risked out” of the public hospital home birth program.

          Homebirth programs are fairly rare, have strict criteria and are constrained to the local area around one of the big maternity hospitals.

          But they’re free, if you qualify and want to do it. Otherwise you can spend several thousand dollars on a private midwife.

          • Who?

            I think that’s right-so they are either miles from anywhere or in unsuitable shape.

            What could possibly go wrong?

          • KarenJJ

            To be honest you don’t have to be miles from anywhere – just being 30 minutes from KEMH will risk you out of a homebirth so outer suburbs are out of range. I’m not sure of St George’s boundaries, but that would cover a small geographical area of Sydney.

          • Klain

            Tbh I was quite surprised there were any hospitals that had a homebirth program in Sydney. Apparently St George does.

          • KarenJJ

            Yeah, St George is one. On the other side of the country, KEMH does one in Perth.

          • Phascogale

            Melbourne has two. Sunshine in the West and Casey in the South East.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Through the public system?

          • Klain

            No – that is if she went with a private midwife. She doesn’t live near a hospital that does the homebirth program.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Got it. I know that it’s hard to have access to the program if you are outside WA.

  • Elizabeth

    Wow. You obviously don’t know what CPMs do. They are highly trained. They are experts in natural birth. They are trained to recognize warning signs of complications. Doctors are extremely uneducated when it comes to natural birth. Sure, there are bad midwives out there, but there are also really good ones. For a normal, low risk mother, you and your baby are FAR more safe at home. Your chances of having a completely natural childbirth in a hospital are slim.

    • Nick Sanders

      Go read some of her other entries then come back and say that again.

    • Stacy48918

      So when a midwife “recognizes warning signs”, what then? They go running to the hospital because they don’t know what to do. Because they don’t have the training or the equipment. Because they are an inferior class of midwife.

      Have a SINGLE citation for your claim that homebirth is “FAR more safe”? Just one. Please?

    • Cobalt

      What good is a midwife if they can’t help when you actually NEED help? Why not have someone useful in attendance?

      • Daleth

        Right!!! It’s not reassuring to hear, “If you need help, I and my ample training can pick up the phone and call 911.” A six-year-old can call 911.

    • Who?

      Why would I want a completely natural childbirth? What is the benefit gained or the risk avoided?

      • Stacy48918

        No kidding. Natural birth f-ing SUCKS!!!

        • Who?

          Did it twice, went fine, but it did really hurt. I just don’t see why it is ‘better’, let alone so much better that I’d run any kind of risk at all to achieve it.

          • Stacy48918

            Twice here too, hopefully never again. No thanks.

          • Who

            Oh I think it would take a miracle for me to have another at this late stage, but I agree completely. Mine were when epidurals weren’t so developed, I’d have one as I walked in were things to ever go that way.

          • Stacy48918

            I’d be open to another baby…but I’m getting a divorce now so I’d need another interested party first, haha. But yea, epidural the moment I walked in. That’s the way to go.

          • Who?

            Get the pup sorted first!

            Epidural totally.

          • Stacy48918

            Ha!

            Though I am dreading possibly potty training and house training at the same time….

          • Who?

            Don’t go there. You are in charge. And would need way more than an epidural to get through that!

          • Cobalt

            Well, you’re already going to be going through a lot of towels…

          • momofone

            If I had another, I’d see your epidural (spinal) and raise you a c-section.

          • Stacy48918

            My problem would be timing/scheduling. My first came at 39.4, my second at 38.3. Second labor I went from 5cm to baby in 2 hours. I’d be worried either way – doubt I could schedule a C early enough to be confident I wouldn’t go into labor…and I’d worry I wouldn’t have time for an epi if I did!

          • momofone

            I’ve only had one, and was never in labor (which was definitely not the plan, but in retrospect I highly recommend it!). I would schedule another in a heartbeat–but I can definitely understand your concern. My mother insisted that she was about to have my brother when she arrived at the hospital in labor, only to be put off by a nurse who assured her second babies didn’t come that quickly. Nineteen minutes later he was born and my mother had a new nurse.

          • Who?

            Same happened to my mum.

            Except the doctor stitching mum up made the nurse stay while he told her off and talked through what he was doing and how things might have been done better, perhaps to make it clear to her that when a second time mum says ‘baby’s coming’ she had better believe it.

          • Who?

            It’s funny that never crossed my mind. Knowing everything went really well, I wouldn’t choose surgery. But not knowing the outcome, and knowing I wanted a small family, a cs might well be a sensible choice.

          • momofone

            I didn’t want surgery. I hate to think how close to woo-ish I might have been in terms of wanting natural all the way, but a BPP at just over 38 weeks showed a lot of placental calcification, and I was nowhere near dilating, so we opted for the surgery. It gives me chills to think what could have happened if I had insisted on waiting; after my son was born, the doctor said the placenta was much worse than he’d expected. If we’d had another, I’d have needed another c-section (I had a classical incision), but I had a great experience and would have been glad to schedule it.

        • Cobalt

          I liked mine. Had three, each in a different hospital. Everything went fine till the placenta wouldn’t come out at the last one, at which point the medical team stepped in and resolved the issue before I had the chance to really hemorrhage.

          At home, I may well have died.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Now now, you just didn’t trust birth enough! (Good to see you Stacy, I was starting to get worried when I didn’t see you here)

          • Stacy48918

            Thanks for the concern. Life’s been good but crazy. Also, I’ve been reading and more active over on some of the FB groups. Been missing things over here. 🙂

          • Bombshellrisa

            I have been on the FB pages too-the Real Birth group has really been active

        • CharlotteB

          If I have another baby, I’m going to handcuff myself to an anesthesiologist at week 35.

        • NoLongerCrunching

          Personally, I liked my natural births. But I respect that different people like different things. I used to judge women who chose c-sections simply because they wanted to. But then I realized that given that I am pro-choice about pregnancy, it would be pretty hypocritical to pressure women into vaginal births if they didn’t want them.

      • Jennifer

        Why would you want a completely natural childbirth? Because it is the BEST OPTION for you and for your baby! Because of the pain of labor, your body produces certain hormones which cross the placental blood barrier into the baby and actually help PREPARE the baby for the grueling task of descending into and through the birth canal. The baby’s body CANNOT produce those hormones by itself; it relies on the mother’s body to give produce them. No hormones, harder birth on the baby. If you have an epidural, you don’t produce those hormones, because your pain receptors are “turned off” [drugged], and your brain receives no “instruction” from them to produce the hormones in question. Not to mention the inherent risks of spinal epidural and other types of pain medication during labor and delivery to both mother and baby; look up the statistics of how many children and birthing mothers have DIED from that alone. If you’re SO SURE that science is on your side, why not listen with open ears [and an open mind] to the research from those saying natural birth is better? Or are you afraid – deep down – they are right??? Watch “The Business of Being Born” [or its sequel], or any similar documentary, and then reconsider your “science”. If you’re right, no harm done; at most, you’ve lost an hour or two watching those documentaries. But if there ARE scientific studies – if there IS scientifically valid evidence you could consider, perhaps you should do so?

        • momofone

          Are you seriously coming here and suggesting that The Business of Being Born is a legitimate scientific tool?

          • dbistola

            My God yes. It happened.

        • dbistola

          I would say that at the very, very, very least, your sources are deeply flawed. You are clearly in over your head here. Please spend the next few hours looking over this site. All of the information you bring up is addressed in layman’s terms for you and for me to understand, and you will find quite a different story from what you’ve been told about hormones, epidural risk, etc.

        • momofone

          Interestingly, the magic failed somehow for us, and my body was actually not the best thing for my son. The placenta had already broken down significantly long before I ever started to dilate. Are you saying it would have been better for me to let him slowly suffocate in order to have a “completely natural birth,” which would have been followed by a completely natural funeral?

        • Stacy48918

          Please name one specific hormone to which you reference.

        • Stacy48918

          And what specifically are the stats for epidural deaths? Clearly if you’ve done your research it should be easy for you to cite that for us.

        • Who?

          Until the baby is too big; until mum’s blood pressure goes through the roof, until who knows what else.

          Show me the numbers of dead mums and babies from epidurals and sections.

          I had two natural deliveries, both went well. Neither I nor my children are defined by those experiences.

          Fetishising something over which you have no control is grotesque.

        • Cobalt

          What if my labor is naturally painless and orgasmic? Do the hormones still work?

          • Jennifer

            I assume you are referencing the “orgasmic birth” movement? It’s a fascinating concept, granted, but one with which most women will never have any experience. The ability to achieve such a birth is directly proportional to the ability a woman has to attain [and RETAIN] a sense of profound calm during labor. An interesting thing happens here: the calmer the laboring mother, the more her body produces endorphins [our body’s natural pain-killers, as I’m sure you know]. Our biggest “endorphin high” is often orgasm – hence “orgasmic birth”. The curious thing, however, is that the hormones I referenced above are STILL produced – because the nerves are STILL “firing” and sending messages [“cue production of hormone cocktail – STAT!”] to the brain; the trick is, the mother is on such an endorphin high, she doesn’t REGISTER the pain as much in her conscious mind. As I said – a fascinating concept, and one which I feel warrants further study. Although I have a sneaking suspicion you might not find many women who can actually achieve the level of calm necessary for this kind of birth WHILE being “studied”! LOL

          • Cobalt

            Actually I think “orgasmic birth” is merely a misunderstanding of the sudden decrease in pain and pressure when the baby is finally out. It feels (relatively) very good compared to the moment before.

            Midwives, doulas, and childbirth educators have since tried to establish it as a marketing tool, but it’s basically just like finally taking off a shoe that’s 3 sizes too small, after running a marathon.

          • Jennifer

            In actual fact, the “orgasmic birth” movement speaks to the concept of having a totally enjoyable labor and birthing experience – from the first contraction to the cutting of the umbilical cord. Anyone who says “orgasmic birth” is about the moment of “release” when the baby is actually out [completely] of the birth canal is sadly misinformed as to the meaning of the idea, as a concept. Interestingly, this concept was initially developed overseas in Russia and neighboring countries; it is not the product of the overactive imaginations of United States midwives, doulas, etc. Neither my midwife nor my doula attempted to make me think an “orgasmic birth” was possible; quite the contrary! They each did their best to establish firmly in my mind the reality of the pain I would endure, and to give me the best possible mental and physical techniques for processing that pain during labor and delivery. My son’s birth last October was not “orgasmic”, by any means; I remember every twinge, jolt and rip of pain – EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. That said, I somehow kept it in perspective, with the goal of his birth in my sights. Mental and physical preparation before the event made the endurance of the pain much more manageable. Of course, this is my own personal experience, and merely anecdotal.

          • Cobalt

            The USSR was big on going without pain relief, they had to sell it somehow.

            Epidurals allow almost everyone to have a totally enjoyable labor and birthing experience, no gimmicks or Jedi mind tricks required.

          • Jennifer

            Hope you take the time to review the link I just posted – and all its 119 references. Perhaps it will answer some of your objections better than I am able. In case it got buried in the thread, I’ll post it again here: http://sarahbuckley.com/epidurals-risks-and-concerns-for-mother-and-baby

          • Cobalt

            See above.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Sarah Buckley? Edited: Sarah Buckley is not an OB, CNM or anesthesiologist, so I cannot accept her as an authority. Also, meant this for Jennifer and not Cobalt

          • Who?

            Answering that in this context could be construed as unkindness.

          • Jennifer

            If you take umbrage with the reference to Dr. Buckley, you most certainly cannot take umbrage with EVERY one of the 119 references she uses. Have you checked ALL of those references to be sure they are ill-advised and scientifically inaccurate? I would sincerely like to know if you have done so, as it would show your own sincerity in saying you are open to the truth.

          • Cobalt

            I would rather get a list of references from a trusted source and spend a lot less time having to start over because their references were total crap.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, the Gish Gallop is super annoying.

          • Cobalt

            She’s trying to send me hunting oranges in an apple tree while I’m busy shooting fish in a barrel.

          • Jennifer

            So, in your estimation, studies published in peer-reviewed medical journals are “total crap”? I ask as there are many listed in those 119 references.

          • Cobalt

            If a 30 year old study on which hormones trigger labor is used as a reference for epidurals having a negative effect on fetal heart rate, then yes.

            Even if the data is good, if it is mislabeled, misapplied, misconstrued, or just plain irrelevant, I’m not sorting through all of it to try to prove someone else’s (false) premise.

          • theadequatemother

            Since you are so well versed in the research how about you reference the specific study that you feel supports your view that pain protects the fetus from stress during labour. And you could also enlighten us as to why the study’s methodology controls for various forms of bias and what the statistical and clinical significance of the results is. Afterall you claimed to be educatd in this area. I am hoping to be educated too. Please teach us.

          • Daleth

            The main form of birth control in the USSR, aside from abortions, was diaphragms made of METAL. Is this seriously the country from which we’re going to take childbearing advice?

          • Who?

            I think you are underestimating the overwhelming effect a good outcome has on your outlook.

            My birth plan was one line-baby healthy, me healthy. I had two natural, normal deliveries, hurt like the Dickens, well supported by hospital midwives, go to whoa in six hours. Babies were great, I was great. Our of hospital inside 12 hours both times. I was lucky it went well.

            Out of my pregnant friends, one had a similar experience to me with a much smaller baby, one had a massive complication at the moment of delivery requiring surgery, one had a 36 hour labour, failed epidural (this was back in the day), and there were two pretty emergency sections.

            I was lucky. Not better prepared, not healthier, not younger, not better at coping with pain, just luckier.

            You don’t see it, but you were lucky. You did what you thought was the prep, and you are gloating over the reward, your normal delivery.

            Confusing luck with good management is a particularly unattractive form of hubris.

          • Jennifer

            “A particularly unattractive form of hubris”? Whew! So glad I don’t have to worry over whether or not any facet of my life or person is “attractive” to YOU! Lucky, eh? Hmm. Ok. Like athletes who train for the Olympics are “lucky”when they win gold. Right. My OB [yes, I had an OB, as well as a midwife] actually told me the SAME THINGS my midwife did in regard to preparation for labor. Funny how you’d likely accept the advice if it came from her, [female OB], but NOT from my midwife or doula?

          • Cobalt

            Here’s the thing. It doesn’t really matter if you prepare for labor. It’s going to do what it’s going to do, no matter what you do.

            THAT is surrendering your ego to nature.

          • Who?

            Yes, lucky. You don’t see it, that’s okay, you haven’t lived long enough yet to experience doing everything right and things still going wrong.

            Where’s the choice if they were telling you the same thing?

          • Jennifer

            I haven’t lived long enough? Who are you to assume you know how old I am, or what life experience I have had? NOW who is exhibiting a “particularly unattractive form of hubris”? I have, in fact, been in just that situation: one in which you do everything right, and things still go wrong. It was still my choice to prepare as advised, or not to prepare; just as it is the choice of the athlete to practice their sport before the Olympic games or not. I’d wager no one would be telling the athlete NOT to practice, but to rely simply on luck.

          • Who?

            No, Jennifer, that was arrogance on my part, not hubris, but thanks for playing. Perhaps pull out that textbook you were using for definitions and study it a little more closely.

            And the athlete analogy is wrong. In a test of speed, strength or skiil, practice and training can make a difference.

            Labour is not about mum’s speed, strength or skill. The skill of her attendants can be critical, but labour is happening regardless of her preparation, and won’t go decisively better or worse on a given day based on that preparation. Like you, mum may feel proud of what she achieved, but it’s actually pretty hollow when you break it down.

            If you and baby were well, the rest is window dressing.

          • Jennifer

            I actually mis-used the word intentionally, as you did. Interesting that you apparently wear the badge of arrogance with pride. Do you enjoy being an arrogant person? I am afraid I must disagree with you on the point of the athlete analogy being inappropriate, as I know many athletes who say labor was the hardest thing they’ve ever done. I heard many stories from them on how glad they were that they prepared their body for the grueling task of ejecting another human being. A stronger mother – stronger in the sense of stronger muscles alone – results in an easier labor. This is the basic reason OB practitioners will encourage their pregnant mothers to keep exercising [within reason], and to do certain hip / pelvic exercises in particular, as they have been shown to assist greatly in labor and delivery. If we follow your comment to its logical conclusion, a laboring mother should just sit there and let her body do whatever it is simply going to do on its own, according to you. Her mind should have no ability to exhibit any control – either positive or negative – over the situation at hand. Yet, any OB will tell you this is not the case; the mindset of the laboring mother is often a determining factor between a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section.

          • Cobalt

            “the mindset of the laboring mother is often a determining factor between a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section.”

            I sure hope an OB would offer a cesarean if the mother wasn’t interested in vaginal delivery. Her body, her choice.

          • Jennifer

            “Wasn’t INTERESTED in vaginal delivery”??? Vaginal delivery is the mechanism by which normal pregnancies are to end, resulting in a successful birth. Whether you believe in creation or evolution, the result is the same: the female body is built to deliver its progeny through the vagina. End of story. Start messing with that in the name of “personal choice” – and not MEDICAL NECESSITY – and you are bound to screw things up. I sure hope your cardiologist offers a heart transplant if you decide you aren’t INTERESTED in keeping your heart healthy. Your body, your choice.

            Honestly, do you even hear how ridiculous that comment sounds??? If I were an OB, and an expectant mother said to me that she wasn’t “interested” in a vaginal delivery, and wanted a c-section instead, I’d have to ask her just how she expects to get out of the difficult tasks of parenting. I mean, there aren’t always options that get us out of pain or difficulty.

          • CharlotteB

            Well than thank God you aren’t an OB.

          • KarenJJ

            You are against forcing women to hospital that want a homebirth and yet you are against women choosing a c-section.

            You need to choose whether you believe that women are intelligent and autonomous beings or not?

            And why do you think choosing a c-section is easier and makes you less of a mother than having a vaginal birth? How is choosing surgery, like a c-section, getting anyone out of pain and difficulty?

            You’re not making much sense to me.

          • Who?

            She’s a treat this one.

            I think there’s a touch of god-bothering going on too but we seem to have gone quiet on that.

          • Jennifer

            Karen, I never said nor implied that having a c-section made any woman “less of a mother”. Forgive me if my writing conveyed that thought, even in the slightest. Bearing a child and parenting that child makes you a mother. We could even take the “bearing” of the child out of the equation entirely for those mothers who have chosen to adopt, and they are equally as validly mothers as those who have born children naturally.

            Choosing a c-section is not the same thing as exercising the personal choice of, say, getting a tattoo. An intelligent, autonomous woman would – I assume – want to know the risks of ANY and EVERY medical procedure she might undertake electively [or need], agreed? Understanding the risks and potential problems associated with a c-section, in comparison to a low-risk, normal vaginal delivery would, I would think, lead a reasonable, rational, intelligent and autonomous woman to the conclusion that – for her OWN safety, much less that of the baby’s – a c-section should only be undertaken in case of a MEDICAL NECESSITY, and not on a personal whim. A cursory overview of the medical risks associated with c-sections evidences this. http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/512946_4

          • KarenJJ

            “Choosing a c-section is not the same thing as exercising the personal choice of, say, getting a tattoo. ”

            Why not? Why do women have to be so micromanaged as to have others make a decision like that for them? How is this any better than the paternalistic “doctor knows best” attitude of old? Women can decide to have surgery to change the size and shape of their boobs. They can decide to get tattoos, piercings etc etc. If they discuss the risks and benefits with their doctors, why not leave them to make up their own decision? Women are not a homogenous bunch. We have our own preferences and biases and can make our own decisions.

          • moto_librarian

            Try having significant pelvic floor problems in your 30s caused by baginal birth. Funny how nobody talks about urine and bowel incontinence, very real risks of vaginal birth.

            And spare me the usual claptrap. I delivered with midwives. My perineum was protected as best as it could be during delivery. I still had second degree tears both times and a cervical laceration with the first. And I delivered small babies (6 lbs, 4 oz., and 6 lbs, 15 oz).

          • Daleth

            “Understanding the risks and potential problems associated with a c-section, in comparison to a low-risk, normal vaginal delivery…”

            Wait, what? We have the choice of a low-risk normal vaginal delivery? We can just DECIDE to have that, instead of having severe tearing, prolapse, hemorrhage or an injured baby? Gosh, why does ANYONE ever decide to have their vaginal delivery go wrong and result in any of those problems?!?!

            Pardon the sarcasm, but my point is that nobody is choosing between a complication-free vaginal delivery and a c-section. That’s because nobody gets to choose how their labor and delivery is going to go. It goes how it goes. It can be a beautiful, empowering experience until the last minute, and then result in a dead or brain-injured baby or severe tearing for the mom; it can be a terrifying, traumatic experience but result in a healthy vigorous baby and no tearing for the mom… or anything in between.

            And we don’t get to CHOOSE, going in, which outcome we get. That risk–the uncertainty of how things will go for you–leads many women to choose c-sections because the list of risks looks better and/or less likely to happen (for instance, nobody ever had severe perineal tearing from a CS, and CS of healthy full-term or near-full term babies do not result in dead or brain damaged babies).

            “…would, I would think, lead a reasonable, rational, intelligent and autonomous woman to the conclusion that – for her OWN safety, much less that of the baby’s – a c-section should only be undertaken in case of a MEDICAL NECESSITY, and not on a personal whim**

            Well, you’d be wrong there. I have three graduate degrees and read up extensively, in medical journals, on the risks of both vaginal birth and c-section… and I chose a c-section. Yay! My babies were born with Apgar scores of 9 and 10, and I not only am not facing a lifetime of fecal incontinence or prolapse, but I don’t even pee when I laugh/sneeze/jump on trampolines. A win-win situation!

          • Bugsy

            It was implied quite eloquently in this statement, FWIW:

            “If I were an OB, and an expectant mother said to me that she wasn’t “interested” in a vaginal delivery, and wanted a c-section instead, I’d have to ask her just how she expects to get out of the difficult tasks of parenting. I mean, there aren’t always options that get us out of pain or difficulty.”

          • moto_librarian

            Yes, yes you did state that having an elective c-section made you less of a mother. I know it’s probably embarrassing when you accidentally type out what you’re really thinking, but don’t lie about it. Own your words.

          • Jennifer

            And – just in case the link I posted below isn’t “valid” enough for someone concerning the risks of a c-section to both mother and baby, here’s another: http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/basics/risks/PRC-20014571

            Understand, those are the BASIC risks. The actual list is much longer. Why would a woman choose a c-section after reading those risks, unless it were medically necessary?

          • KarenJJ

            Great, so in the interest of informed consent, what are the basic risks of vaginal births?

          • CharlotteB

            Why would it be any of your business? Also, where is the Mayoclinic/WebMD list of risks of vaginal birth?

          • Cobalt

            So, according to your philosophy here, are women allowed to use birth control? Formula? Day care? What about driving? Cars are unnatural, and feet are designed for walking! What about painkillers for other medical issues? Sinus headaches from high pollen counts are very, very natural, just a sign of a strong immune system; are allergy meds allowed, or is that “bound to screw things up”, too?

          • Bombshellrisa

            No baby wearing either, ARMS are natural for holding babies, cloth carriers are not.

          • Bombshellrisa

            As long as the risks of both vaginal birth and c-section are discussed.
            A woman should be able to choose NOT to have third or fourth degree perineal tearing. There are women here who were left with pelvic organ prolapse and all that goes with it after a vaginal birth, and that is a lifetime of disability.
            How you give birth has nothing to do with how you parent and I wish people could stop making natural birth and breast feeding a moral issue and focus on the stuff that parenting is.

          • Medwife

            You know, if you went through an undergrad degree, 4 years of medical school, and three years of OB residency, I bet there’s a few things you would and wouldn’t be saying that would surprise you now.

          • Nick Sanders

            “the female body is built to deliver its progeny through the vagina”

            I’ll ask again: If that’s the case, why is the birth canal smaller than a baby’s head?

          • Cobalt

            Right! Marsupials have a much more pleasant system.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Why is there a “birth canal” in the first place if we are so designed? A hatch with a zipper seems more efficient and better designed.

          • Nick Sanders

            For once, being a man gives me a clearer perspective on something on this blog: zippers and genitals do not mix.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Lol
            I meant I think a zipper on my belly would be a better escape hatch for my uterine tenants.

          • moto_librarian

            Do you know how misogynistic and paternalistic you sound? You just said that a woman who opts to have a c-section isn’t going to be up to the difficult task of parenting. I guess if your only real achievement in
            Iife is pushing g a baby out of your vagina without pain medication (something so,en I the developing world do every single day because they have no choice), it must make you feel good about yourself to belittle how other women give birth.

          • Daleth

            *”I mean, there aren’t always options that get us out of pain or difficulty”*

            But sometimes there are options, and we have the right to take them if we so choose.

            May I ask, do you support abortion rights? It takes some serious mental gymnastics to accept that women have the right to decide whether or not to continue carrying a pregnancy, but reject the fact that women also have the right to decide how they want to give birth. Mental gymnastics so severe that you would end up with a “true knot” in your brain stem…

          • Michele

            “If I were an OB, and an expectant mother said to me that she wasn’t “interested” in a vaginal delivery, and wanted a c-section instead, I’d have to ask her just how she expects to get out of the difficult tasks of parenting.”
            Good thing you’re not an OB.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Start messing with that in the name of “personal choice” – and not MEDICAL NECESSITY – and you are bound to screw things up.

            Why? We “mess with” all sorts of “natural” things in the name of personal choice, convenience, or because we’re bored and want something new. Ears weren’t “meant” to be pierced, corn isn’t a “natural” plant, writing to people on the internet is so many forms of unnatural I don’t know where to start. Yet people survive and thrive with all those things. What’s so special about vaginal birth that giving women a choice about giving birth vaginally or via c-section will “screw things up”?

          • Cobalt

            Exercise, especially pelvic floor strengtheners, improves postpartum outcomes like back pain and incontinence. And the exercise recommended is more like “don’t stop just because you’re pregnant, but be safe” not “gear up for an Olympic event”.

          • Who?

            Of course you did. Never wrong, are you? I would find that a burden, but those afflicted seem to wear it very lightly.

          • CharlotteB

            “The mindset of the laboring mother is often a determining factor between a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section.” NOPE. It’s luck. I had a successful, non-medicated, vaginal birth which resulted in a perfect, healthy baby boy, and I had a tear that barely qualified as first degree. Obviously, my mindset was perfect.

            Oh wait. The ONLY thing going though my mind? F**K. M*****F****ER. F**K. Sooo, nope, my state of mind had nothing to do with the outcome.

          • Jennifer

            By that comment, I was referencing the mothers whose mindset is so poor – so negative – that they believe they cannot birth the child, when in fact even their OB is telling them they CAN. If they cease believing they are capable – when they are medically healthy and there is no reason that birth cannot occur – they will not be able to deliver vaginally, and a c-section will become necessary simply because the laboring mother BELIEVED herself to be incapable.

          • CharlotteB

            Oh, so if my OB is telling me that I CAN’T birth vaginally, but if I BELIEVE hard enough that I can, then I can avoid a C-section?

          • Medwife

            Sure, move that baby right through that previa. We’ll all clap our hands while you do it to make sure it works!

          • Who?

            Surely a unicorn or two would help?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Birth affirmations and maybe a yoni cupcake for visualization purposes

          • momofone

            And knit! Don’t forget knitting!

          • Cobalt

            The body just shuts that whole thing down, huh?

          • Who?

            Now that’s just mean.

          • Cobalt

            She’s the one pushing the women can consciously control biological processes and have a moral obligation to do so angle.

          • Who?

            Oh yes but even so-quoting one of those morons is pretty extreme.

            My personal favourite is the clown who thinks women need to take a pill every time they have sex, so the ‘sluttier’ the woman is the higher the pill bill.

            And these people may end up running that beautiful country, and mine by default. Scary.

          • Cobalt

            People like her are already running UK maternity wards.

          • Medwife

            That’s really weird, because I have caught not a few babies while their mothers, sometimes having precipitous labors, screamed at me that they couldn’t do it. I personally pushed while insisting I couldn’t and I felt pretty damn sure about it at the time, too.

          • CharlotteB

            Yep yep yep. Screamed the whole time that I couldn’t do it (precipitous labor), but guess what? It happened anyway.

          • Cobalt

            In one of my deliveries, baby was just shy of crowning, doc’s telling me to push, and I said I couldn’t for a minute, and if it’s that urgent why doesn’t he pull until then. He told me the baby’s hair wasn’t long enough!

            Then I had an involuntary, reflexive push and suddenly it’s “don’t push” because they were getting the nose suctioned and whatnot.

            The whole time I’m wondering what color the hair is!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I said I couldn’t for a minute, and if it’s that urgent why doesn’t he pull until then. He told me the baby’s hair wasn’t long enough!

            CLASSIC!!!!!!!

            Love it, love it, love it!

          • Bombshellrisa

            I was saying “stop it” (to my uterus? the baby?) and “I don’t want to push” and I couldn’t stop pushing at that point. I am glad there is no video of that birth.

          • D/

            And as a NICU nurse I once attended an unannounced ER delivery with a mother repeatedly screaming ‘I am not pregnant, I am not pregnant’ as she gave birth to beautiful 8+ pound bouncing baby boy that she had ” thought” was a bad Chinese food belly ache!!

          • Nick Sanders

            I wasn’t aware vaginas were magic mood rings.

          • Roadstergal

            Do you know how long I have been looking for a good nickname for my vagina? Thank you, sir.

          • Mishimoo

            Except no.

            I was told my whole life that I’d need a caesarean because I was born via one. I completely believed it, I warned all of my medical people, I really wasn’t convinced that I could have vaginal deliveries, and I really didn’t want to have a caesarean but I accepted that it was a likely outcome.

            Cue my surprise when the CNM handed me my eldest and said “See? You did it all by yourself and she’s perfect.”
            (I’m very grateful for the CNMs that took my concerns seriously, monitored us properly, and put me in the birth suite closest to theatre just in case.)

          • Stacy48918

            The only time I thought “I can’t do this!” was when I was trapped at home with my husband and he refused to let me have an epidural and a hospital birth.

            Really empowering.

          • KBCme

            What? That’s awful!

          • FormerPhysicist

            And does this actually happen? Case report? Given that women in comas have given birth, it seems unlikely.

          • toni

            it must take quite a bit longer without the mother’s efforts though? Otherwise why would they tell you to push

          • Who?

            Perhaps that’s why my son drops the Fbomb from time to time, because I had those thoughts in my normal labour too.

            One more mystery cleared up!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Hey, if the mindset is so important, wouldn’t then an epidural be helpful, because it helps eliminate the pain so that you can keep your mind clear and in a proper state?

          • Kelly

            I had a similar experience. I love all people will say that fear and anxiety will not let you open up. Well, I was full of fear and anxiety in my less than three hour labor. It hurt like hell and I was in denial that the baby was coming so fast until I hit nine centimeters. I finally conceded and told my husband to text my mom and tell her she would not be making it. I am just plain lucky. I am not better than my friends who had traumatic and difficult labors.

          • Bombshellrisa

            How do stronger muscles prevent lacerations or PPH? Or placental abruption or uterine rupture?

          • moto_librarian

            All my preparations didn’t prevent a cervical laceration and pph.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Nope, it’s your fault. You didn’t do it right.

            We’ve actually heard that exactly line “if you do it right” in this thread. I think it is the most telling.

            If something goes wrong, you did something wrong, and it’s YOUR FAULT.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “A stronger mother – stronger in the sense of stronger muscles alone – results in an easier labor.”

            Actually there is no evidence at all that athletes have easier or shorter deliveries. I have a number of very athletic friends and/or patients: a locally ranked triathlete, a regionally ranked rock climber, an olympic nordic skier, a couple of professional dancers, a division 1 all american swimmer, an ultramarathoner. About half have had c-sections, and at least one needed vacuum.

            The one of our friends who had the easiest delivery of all of them was the one we tease for her extreme couch potato ways. Her first labor was 4 hours from start to finish. No real pain until transition. 3 pushes. No tears. Her “preparation” had consisted of telling her OB that she was almost certainly going to ask for an epidural because she hates pain.

            It’s almost all just luck.

          • Inmara

            I have seen this in local forums where women share their birth experiences – those who have gone through birth classes, pregnant yoga, perineum massages etc. swear that their birth success is due to these practices. At the same time, equal amount of women have exactly the same birth experience and they have done NOTHING, some have been on bed rest and unable to do any exercises, some didn’t find them useful or didn’t have time and resources. It all boils down to genetics (as in having stretch marks or not) and dumb luck.
            All in all, I think here we see the fallacy of “good world” when people can’t accept that bad things happen to good people and therefore blame sickness, accidents and other lack of fortune to something that victim has done wrong (meanwhile thinking that “this can’t happen to me because I’m good and I don’t deserve it”. So wrong, but so prevalent in most societies.

          • Daleth

            So SO true. You know what, it was actually the whole concept of “perineal massage” that first started turning me off vaginal birth. A midwife–I was with a team of hospital midwives until they risked me out due to mono-di twins–told me enthusiastically how it worked and that I should start doing it from 20 weeks or whenever.

            The very idea was disturbing: either a complete stranger/health care professional repeatedly massages my nether region (ick ICK!), or my husband’s relationship to my nether region is transformed from (none of your business) to that of a physical therapist trying quite unerotically to perform yoga stretches on my bits.

            Just… NO!

          • toni

            I didn’t do it while I was pregnant but the doctor did it the whole time I was pushing. Was not expecting it at all. My husband said they had this special oil for it so must be standard practice there. It HURT but I didn’t tear so I guess I’m glad he tried it.. though I have also read since that it can make you more likely to tear because the tissues swell up or something. Jury’s still out it seems

          • Daleth

            My mom is and was handicapped and quite weak, and her labor with me–her first–lasted all of six hours. No meds, no tearing, perfect birth. It has NOTHING to do with physical fitness.

          • toni

            Does it not help you to recover faster though maybe? Being in relatively good shape. My ob said being fitter could make the birth a bit quicker but no guarantees ofc. I assumed they must have observed some correlation at least.

          • Daleth

            Oh, probably, being in good shape helps you recover from anything (childbirth via VD or CS, any sort of illness or surgery, etc.). But that has nothing to do with whether you should pick VD or CS to have your children.

          • Anj Fabian

            Got a study for that claim?

            “the mindset of the laboring mother is often a determining factor between a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section.”

            I have heard women tell of pushing for hours because they absolutely wanted a vaginal birth – and giving birth in the OR.

            Desire doesn’t change the physical laws of the universe.

          • Daleth

            Glad to see you asking that. I’ve asked people that question any number of times–they always claim that mindset affects how well her labor goes, and then they always disappear when I ask them for the SLIGHTEST evidence of that.

            Or not to mention, when I point out the no doubt excellent mindset of Caroline Lovell, the Australian homebirth advocate, who hemorrhaged to death after birthing her daughter in a pool at home.

          • Cobalt

            Birth isn’t a game. It doesn’t follow rules. There is no preparation, beyond avoiding deliberately increasing your risks, that is going to drastically change the outcome of natural birth.

            You don’t get to pick if your baby is vertex, or very large, or malpresented, or if your internal pelvis is accommodating, or the if health, integrity, or position of the placenta is adequate, or if you hemorrhage, or have preeclampsia, or extensive cervical ennervation, or back labor, or prior trauma.

          • Jennifer

            Much of what you just mentioned are issues which present themselves during pregnancy, far in advance of labor and delivery. In such situations, the mother in question should obviously have the best medical care possible to ensure both she and the baby [babies?] have the greatest chance for success. I am NOT against medicine, medical interventions or medical assistance during birth; I am merely stating that it is NOT necessary as often as it is presented to be [at least within the US. I cannot speak for other countries.]

            There are many situations in life which are not “games”, but for which the analogy of Olympic preparation is still appropriate. There ARE “rules” to birth – although some, admittedly, include “loopholes” in the law, so to speak, for certain situations. Rule of Birth 1: it will include pain. Rule of Birth 2: the object is to birth a baby. Rule of Birth 3: the female body will respond in particular ways, every time, to the process of labor and delivery. These particular ways of response are commonly the same, woman to woman; so same, in fact, that an entire medical field – Obstetrics – is based on the RELIABLE data of the fundamental COMMONALITIES, [the “rules”, if you will], of conception, labor and delivery. Those are pretty hard-and-fast “rules”, I’d say. Without them, without the verifiable expectation of the “rules of birth” – of how a normal, healthy birth SHOULD GO – Obstetrics as a medical field would be impossible.

          • Cobalt

            Rule 1- It really doesn’t have to. There will likely be discomfort, but severe pain is usually avoidable, if desired.

            Rule 2- The object is to deliver a HEALTHY baby, to a healthy mother. (This really should be first!!)

            Rule 3- Your labor may or may not be “textbook”. It may or may not go to plan. Best outcomes (see rule 2) are achieved with the medical model.

          • Who?

            But where, in that set of rules, does mum get to control everything and be the star?

          • KarenJJ

            The field of obstetrics changes with the introduction of new information. But natural childbirth sounds like it is an absolute belief for you. Is there nothing that would change your mind about giving birth with pain relief or choosing a c-section?

          • Nick Sanders

            Obstetrics also has a giant, and I mean GIANT list of “Shit that can go wrong with Rule 3”.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            Jennifer, I had 3 natural births with CNMs, two in hospital, 1 in a freestanding birth center. I came to this blog with all the knowledge of the natural childbirth movement, but since I have an open mind, I learned a lot here; in particular, that most of our “knowledge” is actually not supported by scientific evidence.

            I also learned that despite having had a college level statistics course and a Master’s level research design course, I am pretty bad at interpreting study results. Which is unfortunate, since I have learned here that researchers often spin their conclusions when they don’t like the data. If you don’t understand the numerical analysis, you can’t just rely on the author’s conclusion.

            One can still feel natural is better, but that is just a belief, not a fact. I would still have a natural birth, but now it would be because that is my personal preference, not because it is healthier.

          • Cobalt

            “Who are you to assume you know how old I am, or what life experience I have had?”

            She’s Who?, that’s who.

            And really, it’s very obvious you’re still educating yourself with the end goal of not upsetting yourself, making sure your “facts” to suit your emotions. Natural birth “feels right”, so it must therefore be right.

            But that’s not how the world works. You don’t have to believe, it exists completely independently of your desires, which is something you only learn with maturity and life experience.

          • Jennifer

            Wow. I bow before your ancient wisdom. Oh, wait – that was arrogance. Again. I did not choose to have a natural birth because it “felt right”; I chose to have a natural birth after literally years of research and careful consideration of all possible outcomes. I did so not with the “end goal of not upsetting myself”, but rather with the goal of gathering truth – however inconvenient or uncomfortable it might be. Facts tweaked to suit one’s emotions are – I suspect – not “facts”, as you pointed out; but then, you’d likely know this from first-hand experience, as many of your own “facts” are tweaked to fit your own [apparently angry] emotional stance on the efficacy of hospital births. The [absolute] fact that the workings of the world “exists completely independently of [my] desires” is something children learn at an early age, if properly parented; one does not have to be ancient in order to know this. I suspect, judging by your comments here, that if you were to guess my age you’d be wildly wrong. Perhaps you’d be surprised to know there are many “older” people – not just “20-somethings” who are firmly entrenched in the natural-birth-is-better camp.

          • Cobalt

            You showed me a study from the early 80s on hormonal triggers of labor and tried to tell me it meant maternal pain benefited fetal heart rate.

            If you can’t see how twisted that is, you’re lying to yourself.

            You keep talking about preparation for labor like it actually achieves something other than bragging fodder for those lucky enough to not have those beliefs challenged by their own experience.

            That’s the magical thinking that says that your wishes can change physical reality.

            You ignore the fact that there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that promoting “natural” birth does anything other than increase mortality rates. Yet you chose and now promote it.

            That is basing decisions on emotions, not realities.

            I don’t care how old you are, you have the maturity of an 8 year old.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You showed me a study from the early 80s on hormonal triggers of labor and tried to tell me it meant maternal pain benefited fetal heart rate.

            Technically, she posted it for theadequatemother, because, you know, 30 year old information available on the nih website is not something that an anesthesiologist knows about, so she had to be educated.

            Pablo’s First Law strikes again.

          • Who?

            All hubris is unattractive, the form you model is particularly unattractive. Nothing to do with your or your lifestyle’s attractiveness or not.

          • Jennifer

            Hubris – as applied with a textbook definition – is excessive pride or self-confidence. How, if you please, am I modeling a “particularly unattractive” form of hubris by saying I worked hard to obtain a positive mindset regarding the pain of labor, and to learn coping mechanisms for that pain? Sounds rather humble, to me, for someone to admit the pain will be a challenge and to attempt to do something to meet that challenge. If I was, in fact, exhibiting hubris, I’d have said “the heck with all that pain management nonsense – I can handle anything thrown at me on my own” – which would be an example of pride and excessive self-confidence. Perhaps you need to brush up on your semantics before using a word inappropriately?

          • Who?

            I prefer a dictionary for definitions, but if you don’t have one about a textbook will do.

            I’ll be plain-you think things went well because of your prep, because of what you did. You’re assuming if everyone did the same thing everyone could have a normal delivery. You’re telling us all so, every time you post.

            That’s hubris.

            You confuse good luck with good management, which in my eyes is almost the ultimate in hubris. Others may disagree.

            Your pride and excessive self confidence is further displayed in the utter nonsense you quote as sources.

            My grip on semantics-and rhetoric-is just fine, thanks for your interest.

            And in pursuit of improved rhetoric, I’ll end sentences with a preposition whenever I feel like it.

          • Jennifer

            The phrase “textbook definition” is a colloquial one; one with which you are apparently unfamiliar. I have never said that preparing for labor as I did would result in the same kind of labor I had for every other woman. Perhaps you misread my comments? Each laboring mother brings to labor and delivery her own unique set of circumstances; each labor and delivery is, in its own way, unique even as it shares many commonalities with all other births. I believe things went well for a number of reasons – not ONLY because of the preparation I did on my own. I do believe, however, that the mental and physical preparation I did before my son was born was helpful to me before, during, and after labor and delivery. And as I mentioned in another comment: my birth experience is presented here as entirely anecdotal and not as scientific evidence. And, by the way, ending sentences improperly does nothing to “improve rhetoric”; unless, by “improving”, you actually mean “changing speech and rhetoric to be whatever sloppy grammar I wish it to be”.

          • Who?

            So now an anecdotal expert on grammar and language usage as well as labour and delivery. You’re an impressive woman, Jennifer.

            So where are all your up to date references?

            Not related to that gun nut we had here a few months ago who knew all about everything, are you?

          • Daleth

            I’m sure the preparation you did WAS helpful. No doubt it helped you cope with the pain. But I’m also sure that your preparation had nothing to do with why you didn’t experience a hemorrhage, a breech or transverse baby, a prolapse, a shoulder dystocia, placental insufficiency, placental abruption or any of the other complications that can make birth damaging or fatal for babies and/or moms. All of THAT is where luck comes in.

          • Bugsy

            Bingo.

          • Nick Sanders

            “I dealt with the pain and embraced it, unlike all you wimpy morons. I’m so much better than you.”

            Sure sounds like hubris to me.

          • Stacy48918

            Because you think your mindset is the bestest bestest ever with unicorns and fairies and sparkles and so every woman should want it. Good for you if you were so calm and awesome but it’s not transferrable to other women and certainly not verifiable scientifically.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            I have to admit that I literally laughed at comparing having an unmedicated birth to being an olympic athlete. I just… can’t even. Really? And yes, you *were* lucky. As is any woman who has an uneventful birth that results in a healthy mother and baby. I guess the women and babies who have died in childbirth just didn’t “train” enough.

          • Dr Kitty

            I’m the child of an actual Olympic athlete…giving birth is easier.
            You don’t have to spend 30 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, for 12 years and micromanage your diet and lifestyle for a bloody start!
            You also don’t have any competitors…

            Birth is only like the Olympics if you consider that while humans have evolved to be able to run, some people who are naturally built to be sprinters and some people are built to run marathons.
            No matter how hard he trains, Mo Farah won’t beat Usain Bolt over 100m, and Bolt can train forever and he still won’t beat Farah over 1500m.

            Now apply that to birth: some women can wish and hope and prepare all they want, and they still will have long, hard, complicated and possibly obstructed labours.
            It isn’t lack of positive thoughts or birth affirmations that is the problem. It’s just not an event where the odds favour them.

          • Cobalt

            Having a body that can handle Olympic level athletics is lucky, too. Lots of people try, very few have the athletic gifts to sustain that level of training.

            And, in the end, winning the game doesn’t make you a good sport, and athletic achievements have no relationship to good character or value as a person.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Having a body that can handle Olympic level athletics is lucky, too.

            Michael Phelps is, by all accounts, a total freak of nature. Anatomicists have explained how he just happens to have a body that is as perfectly designed for fast swimming as you can get.

            Yes, he works hard and practices extensively, but he is also naturally gifted. Others can work as hard as Phelps but will never be as good.

          • KarenJJ

            “In actual fact, the “orgasmic birth” movement speaks to the concept of having a totally enjoyable labor and birthing experience – from the first contraction to the cutting of the umbilical cord. ”

            Awesome my c-sections fall under that category then. I had a great labour and birthing experience with both c-sections.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            even pre drugs, I was as calm as I am when I’m sewing blocks for my newest quilt. Still felt pain rather than happy hormones. But then I also felt no boost when I nursed my son. I have never had an endorphin high from anything physical, no matter how much I exercised.

          • Jennifer

            Since you desire something a bit more up-to-date, take a look at this. The website in question is that of a medical doctor – an OB – practicing in New Zealand and Australia. I am betting it will take far more than 8 minutes to check out EVERY reference given [there are 119 listed.] http://sarahbuckley.com/epidurals-risks-and-concerns-for-mother-and-baby

          • Who?

            I’ll get the popcorn on…

          • Cobalt

            30 seconds, I’m familiar with the source, already know she’s full of it

          • Jennifer

            Oh really? The doctor in question has credentials equaling those of the OB who wrote the article above which started this entire discussion. Why not entertain what she has to say? Afraid she may have evidence you don’t want to hear?

          • Cobalt

            I’ve already done it. Believe it or not, you’re not the first person to try to sell me a pile of all natural bullshit.

          • Cobalt

            Define “equal”.

          • KarenJJ

            No she doesn’t. She’s a general practitioner. I think she may have done “shared care” where GPs look after the initial prenatal care before transferring to the hospital for birth (or if the pregnancy becomes more complicated). She would not have attended nearly as many births as a practising obgyn such as Dr Amy was. She would not have cared for nearly as many pregnant women as Dr Amy would have done. Beyond the lower risk pregnancy care, she would have not had nearly as much experience with higher risk pregnancies as Dr Amy has.

            I’ve heard Dr Buckley’s evidence and have remained unimpressed. What in particular did you find convincing about her position against epidurals, for example?

          • Daleth

            A general practitioner (GP) does not have “credentials equaling an OB” any more than they have credentials equaling a cardiologist, neurologist, or oncologist. To become a specialist in any medical field, as opposed to a GP, you have to do a multi-year residency in that specific field. In other words, once you graduate from medical school, you have to spend X years studying nothing but that particular specialty. The length of the residency depends on the specialty; for OB’s, it’s four years.

          • KarenJJ

            So you’re good at “research”?

            a) Dr Sarah Buckley is not an OB
            b) she is no longer a practicing doctor.

          • KarenJJ

            ” If you have an epidural, you don’t produce those hormones, because your pain receptors are “turned off” [drugged], and your brain receives no “instruction” from them to produce the hormones in question.”

            So which of the 119 listed references actually support that statement?

        • theadequatemother

          Can you please reference the studies that show that epidurals turn off the “protective hormones” that keep that baby’s HR steady during descent? As an anesthesiologist I’ve never heard of such a thing. What I do know is that the reduction in maternal adrenaline associated with epidurals improve cord gases meaning better placental perfusion. I also know that modern low does epidurals do not increase CS or instrumental deliveries – which you would expect if the fetal HR did indeed suffer during dilation and descent due to the epidural. I eagerly anticipate your response.

          I am sure it won’t make much sense because 1) there is no research that backs your claims and 2) you are likely to come back with some M Odent opinion pieces (which don’t include any actual science).

          • Jennifer

            Interesting that you assume I will have no hard, scientific data to provide. Love proving you wrong. I assume you’ll accept a US Government data source as actual research? Try this one for starters. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6091729

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, that’s only 30 years old, I’m sure no new information has come to light since then.

          • Who?

            Thirty years is practically last week when you think this has all been going on for 6000 years.

            And yes, that was snark, just in case it wasn’t clear.

          • Bombshellrisa

            You beat me to the punch, epidurals have come a long way since 1982.

          • Cobalt

            That study is about hormones triggering and sustaining labor. Not protecting the fetal heart rate by causing the mother to experience pain. Try again.

          • Jennifer

            Wow. Apparently you’re a speed-reader? You read, understood and absorbed the entire study in ten minutes? Impressive.

          • momofone

            I know this may come as a shock, since you dug up such cutting-edge research, but it’s possible this was not the first time Cobalt had encountered the study you referenced.

          • Cobalt

            8 minutes, and this isn’t new.

          • Daleth

            PS, that “entire study” is also not a study. It’s just an article reviewing existing data (the data that existed 31 years ago), which was all discovered/produced by other people.

          • theadequatemother

            That study is also from the 1980s and makes no mention of epidurals or other pain relief modalities on the maternal hormonal response durin labour. Please find a study that directly supports your claims. Bonus if it’s actually contemporary.

          • Guest

            This only talks about the effects the hormones play on the uterus and the act of delivery. It does not mentioned anything about an effect it has on the baby.

          • theadequatemother

            It’s going to be hard, Jennifer, for you to come to the realization that you went through all that unnecessary pain for a lie.

          • Daleth

            Jennifer, what part of that 31-year-old article that you linked to proves ANY of the points you were trying to make? It doesn’t support anything you were saying, much less “prove [other posters] wrong.” It has nothing to do with epidurals, nothing to do with whether the laboring woman’s body produces hormones that cross the placenta and “prepare” the baby for birth. It just outlines which hormones do what (or appear to do what) when a woman is in labor–regardless of whether she has an epidural.

            Oh, also, FYI, the fact it is hosted on an NIH website does not make it a “US Government data source.” It says right on that page that it was an article published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. That NIH site just hosts all articles and studies that were published in peer-reviewed journals–it doesn’t endorse them.

        • Who?

          So I should choose something you acknowledge is gruelling for the baby? Which could take, how long, 36 hours? As opposed to a nice, quick cs?

          I have listened to the natural birth crowd, I had two natural births that went great. Not because I’m great, or for any other reason than I was lucky.

          BOBB is toxic, more drama than documentary: it’s like one of those programs which claims to be history but it’s really drama. I hate those programs.

          Love you to show me the scientifically valid evidence that doesn’t involve watching a mocumentary though.

        • Nick Sanders

          While we’re looking at statistics, let’s compare how many women die or have long lasting complications from “natural childbirth” with how many die or have long lasting complications from birth assisted by standard medical care.

        • NoLongerCrunching

          Cara Muhlhahn is responsible for one infant death and one paralysis. These babies were healthy at the start of labor. She lied to her clients about having a backup agreement with a physician. The parents of these babies have no legal recourse since homebirth midwives don’t protect their clients by carrying liability insurance.

        • Dr Kitty

          Or…
          You can have a planned, pre labour CS which was completely painless, have a pink, screaming baby lifted over the screen into your arms, fall in love with her immediately, breast feed her within 30 minutes and continue to do so for 16 months, and have a happy, active, pleasant and polite 5 year old with maths and literacy skills more than 2 years ahead of her age.

          Didn’t need pain to prepare my body for a non existent vaginal delivery and had a super straightforward recovery from my CS (driving within 3 weeks, gym within 6 weeks, no pain relief after a week).

          Going to do it again this summer, because an elective CS is the best option for ME and MY babies, seeing as how the alternative in our case is probably obstructed labour and death.

          All the studies are irrelevant when my OB can look at the scans of my pelvis and spine, see that my baby was high, free and has an unstable lie and was too big (even at less than 7lbs) to fit into my wonky pelvis, never mind fitting on the way out. Vaginal birth, never mind “natural” vaginal birth wasn’t the best option for us then, and it isn’t going to be the best option for me ever. The BOBB was irrelevant to my situation.

          What is “best” is about balancing risks and benefits.
          Pain vs pain relief
          Intervention vs no intervention
          Some of it will come down to your own preferences and beliefs.
          Some of it, like in my case, will come down to your own unique risk factors.

          There is no single “best” option that is suitable for all women and all babies, and it is really silly to pretend that there is.

        • Liz Leyden

          I’ll watch “The Business of Being Born” as soon as you watch “The Killing Fields” and “A Walk to Beautiful.”

    • dbistola

      Oh, you have some real work ahead of you. Put your feet up and start navigating this site. The beauty is that you don’t have to research anything. Dr. Amy has done it all for you.

    • ArmyChick

      LOL.

      And that’s all I have to say about that.

      Oh and the great thing about science and research that is backed by scientific FACTS is that it is still true even if you don’t believe it….

    • Somewhereinthemiddle

      I know *exactly* what CPMs do and lemme tell you, it isn’t much. “Highly trained” by who? Certified by what organization? What legitimate medical facility recognizes that credential? Are they qualified to prescribe medications for their patients? Do they have access or know how to use or interpret the results from monitoring equipment to check fetal well being? I mean other than the doppler that can be ordered on Amazon? Can they run an IV on a patient? Are they able to do *anything* if a placenta abrupts or a mother bleeds out or a baby is born blue other than call an ambulance?

      Tell me just one thing that a CPM can do that a CNM or physician can’t. Please do tell us *all* about their advanced training…

      • ArmyChick

        They can’t even work in hospitals… That should tell the OP something.

      • angelita

        wow, i think you need to do a bit of research before you point fingers, women have been giving birth since the beginning of the human species and for the most part, do not give birth in a hospital. yet we have survived! oh my! y’all are freaking idiots.

        • Stacy48918

          And you clearly have no grasp of evolution and natural selection. It accommodates a large amount of DEATH just fine. 1 in 10 babies can die, no problem. Know what the death rate is now, with modern obstetrics? Around 1 in 1000.

          You need to use capitalization. And do research.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Nah, screw the “research” crap. She needs to learn science. That’s not research, that’s education.

          • Stacy48918

            Seriously, high school level biology…

            I have my college freshman bio textbook still, maybe angelita wants some light reading…

          • Kelly

            That does not take into account the damaged babies from vaginal birth. Even if it is not evident in the beginning, their problems will show up eventually.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          yet we have survived!

          You know what? I don’t give a shit about whether the human race survives. When we were expecting, what I cared about was whether MY CHILD survived.

          That’s a lot higher standard than what is needed to perpetuate the species.

          Of course, since you are such an evolution expert, you knew that, right?

        • dbistola

          You don’t exactly come off as someone well versed in scientific research in evolution. Are you sure you are reading the right sources? By real scientists?

        • Somewhereinthemiddle

          Okay, since you took the bait and commented. Do you want to answer my questions? Do you know the answers?

          And what happens to the babies that don’t survive home birth or do with terrible brain injuries?

          Tell me, did your precious midwife who spent all that time with you carry any sort of insurance in the event that she was negligent and you or your baby ended up with permanent injury?

          You know the funny thing about your long diatribe post up a little bit? You felt the need to justify your choice to go to the hopsital saying that you did so by your own choice. You know what that seems to indicate to me? That somehow, in your circle, that you have to somehow defend that choice. You don’t think that is odd? That you, as a sentient, hopefully clear thinking adult capable of making responsible choices, needs to justify going to a hospital to have your baby? I may be reading too much into that statement, but I’ve heard lots, and lots, and LOTS of women immersed in the “birthy world” say similar phrases.

        • angelita

          yeah . . . i have three kids, all survived. many of my friends have had a home birth, all of their children were born peacefully with no complications, my mother had seven children all born at home and guess what, NO COMPLICATIONS! if you DO NOT HAVE A HIGH RISK PREGNANCY than why not choose home birth if that is what you want?? i did quite a bit of research, thank you very much, about home birth vs. hospital birth and i did choose to have a midwife rather than an obstetrician and i chose to have a hospital birth WITH A MIDWIFE WHO WAS NOT A CNM BUT A CPM. and no, i am by no means any kind of fundamentalist christian, seriously, get over yourselves, grow the hell up, get off your damn soap box and quit being so judgmental over someone else’s choices. oh and just to be a b@%*$ maybe natural selection meant your kid wasn’t meant to survive, since you want to bring up evolution and natural selection, since you want to believe that, obviously your kids weren’t meant to perpetuate your ignorant mindset.

          • Cobalt

            “just to be a b@%*$ maybe natural selection meant your kid wasn’t meant to survive”

            You really find the preventable deaths of babies to be acceptable? It’s ok to let them die instead of providing lifesaving basic medical care?

          • angelita

            i do not believe that the preventable deaths of babies is acceptable at all. what i am trying to show people who are bringing up the whole evolution/natural selection theory into play is, that if they want to believe that then they should accept that if they believe that theory, then if their child was born with a life-threatening defect then that is “natural selection” weeding their child out. that is their theory, not mine. if they believe that, then assuming their child shouldn’t have lived in their minds is what they think, not me. i happen to have two cousins and my best friends sister who are special needs, who almost died at birth, and i would NEVER wish that on anyone. i am just saying, if this is the point they are trying to make, its not making a very valid one.

          • Medwife

            You know, it’s really not your fault. The American education system is in shambles, especially science education. It’s a shame.

          • dbistola

            I’m not sure. What are you arguing here? You obviously agree that nature cheerfully allows large death and wastage rates, yet you seem to be advocating a larger role for Mother Nature in birth.

          • Cobalt

            So, people that understand basic science (evolution, natural selection), should be barred from using advanced science (modern obstetrics) to keep their children alive?

            You do realize that makes no sense whatsoever?

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            So you know people that almost died at birth and you *still* think homebirth is a fantastic plan? Um… okay.

          • KarenJJ

            But that’s exactly what natural selection is doing and that is exactly why I choose not to partake in any form of natural selection if I can avoid it. It’s why my kids are vaccinated, why I had c-sections, why I used formula, why I give my kids clean drinking water and good healthy food. I’m out to beat nature, not join it. Nature’s been trying to kill me and my family and I don’t like it. No way would I choose to roll the dice and leave my family’s health and well-being up to “nature” (or god for that matter).

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            That’s not how evolution works. Evolution works through selective pressure in a given environment. So inability to give birth naturally is going to be negatively selected in the Medieval period or bronze age, but in a modern industrialized society it is an essentially neutral trait: If c-sections are readily available and safe then there is no increased risk of dying prior to reproduction and no evolutionary pressure. In current society, even complete inability to birth vaginally is NOT being selected against. It’s a neutral polymorphism, not a “bad gene”.

            Could it become a problem? Sure, it could. If global warming somehow causes a major loss of technology then we who can’t reproduce naturally are screwed. OTOH, other selective pressures may come into play. Maybe we’ll decide to all move to Mars where they still have some cold left. In that case, good DNA repair mechanisms are going to be important, ability to birth vaginally, not so much so. In fact, what if a gene that makes vaginal birth more difficult also improves DNA repair? Then ONLY the people who need c-sections will be selected for and humanity will simply become c-section dependent. That would be a perfectly acceptable evolutionary outcome.

          • Life Tip

            But…you were the one that brought up survival of our species in the first place.

            Your point=not valid.

          • momofone

            Exactly. And you (Angelita) are a HELPER?

          • dbistola

            Question-are you sure you understood this research? I am only asking because if you regularly read medical research, you are reading some very complex ideas. I struggle when I read real, established scientific literature, and I am a teacher who has had to get advanced degrees. Reading scientific studies was a requirement for me, and I struggled.

          • dbistola

            My point is this, you don’t sound or write like anyone who reads research papers.

          • KarenJJ

            “oh and just to be a b@%*$ maybe natural selection meant your kid wasn’t meant to survive, since you want to bring up evolution and natural selection, since you want to believe that, obviously your kids weren’t meant to perpetuate your ignorant mindset.”

            Thanks. That confirms a lot. I thought this was the underlying premise to the particular mindset that you represent. I find it morally reprehensible.

          • dbistola

            It’s disgusting. Our human race is advancing to the point where everyone is getting closer and closer to getting a decent chance for survival, and a good quality of life. Yet what some advocate is against mankind’s great promise.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            You wish dead children on people because they don’t agree with you or support home birth? That is LOW. I am so glad you have revealed yourself to be a hateful nasty person simply because someone doesn’t agree with you. You have done way more to reveal your true nature than any one of us could ever hope to do.

          • Stacy48918

            You are not just scum. You are ignorant scum.

          • momofone

            I had a c-section, and guess what–NO COMPLICATIONS!

          • Nick Sanders

            If you did research, I’d like to see your publications.

          • Bombshellrisa

            A CPM had hospital privileges?

          • Guest

            I caught that, too, BSR. I call BS on that. I can’t think of ANY hospital having an undereducated and under qualified CPM on staff. Freestanding birth center, sure. Actual hospital? No way.

          • Bombshellrisa

            There is some sort of bill being pushed in WA state so CPMs can be given hospital privileges, but I don’t know much about it. I can’t imagine a hospital granting privileges to someone who can’t even prescribe a simple antibiotic.

          • KarenJJ

            Well, maybe CPMs can practice in hospital if they do the required lengthy, costly and intensive training such that they are up to date with the latest in midwifery and evidence based practice as well as covering insurance and making sure they adhere to hospital policy and procedure.

            It might take a few years in an accredited university program with a good general nursing background first and with a lot of clinical time to ensure that they have the right skills to practice in a hospital.

          • KarenJJ

            Oh and they should participate in root cause analysis investigations as well as meetings where they need to defend their care to their hospital colleagues.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            My son “was not meant to survive”. For some reason, he did. Well, actually no “for some reason”, thanks to real medical care by real professionals he survived. I am pretty glad he defied natural selection. Let me tell you, you wrote that because you have never ever thought your children could die. If you would have been in my situation, thinking that your much desired and loved baby could die you would never be able to stomach writing something like that. I am really glad you’ve had such a good experience, I really am, and I hope you never have to go through a ICU stay with one of your children, but, please, try to imagine for a second what it feels like and stop writing bullshit. I am genuinely concerned about the health and wellbeing of other babies, that is why I would advise anyone agaisnt a homebirth. I know how it feels to have a very sick baby and I would never wish that on anyone and I will always do my best to try to prevent that from happening.

          • DaisyGrrl

            If your mother had seven babies at home, she was not low risk for her last deliveries. Grand multiparity is not considered low risk. I’m glad everything turned out well for her, but she was still high risk and it would be irresponsible to suggest to women that having a seventh baby at home is as safe as having a second baby at home.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            if you DO NOT HAVE A HIGH RISK PREGNANCY than why not choose home birth if that is what you want??

            Although there are answers to this question, I just want to point out that 40+12 is NOT low risk any more, so it seems that you would be in agreement with the blog post to get thee to a hospital ASAP!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym


            maybe natural selection meant your kid wasn’t meant to survive

            Talk to a NCB advocate for a while and somehow this always shows up: that blatant disregard for human life and eugenic mindset. Think you’re an ubermensch because you survived birth? Think again. All that means is that you were successful in ONE (artificial) evolutionarily stressful situation. It says nothing about your ability to repair your DNA, deal with infectious disease, or hold a job. All far more relevant criteria for “fittest” in modern society than whether you can get a baby out your vagina or have to have help getting the baby born.

        • Nick Sanders

          Most of us aim a bit higher than survival of the species. Say, survival and good health of the individual.

        • Cobalt

          In areas of the world where women don’t have regular access to hospitals, the lifetime risk of dying in childbirth is one in seven.

        • JJ

          Lots of people did NOT survive though! I had 3 homebirths and will never have one again even though I am still very low-risk. Birth is statistically more dangerous outside of the hospital. How could I have another homebirth knowing that even though we survived?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          All we have to do to survive as a species is have at least as many children be born and survive to have their own children in a given generation as in the one before. Given that, obviously from the Duggars’ example, having 10 or 20 children is not outside of human reproductive potential, that means that A LOT of babies and pregnant women can die and the species still be fine. And, indeed, that’s what happened for most of human history: a lot of women died, a lot of babies died, but enough survived to continue the species.

          The world population took an enormous upturn starting in the 19th century and continuing through today. Why? Largely because a lot more women and babies started surviving birth thanks to improved medical care.

    • KarenJJ

      Keep reading. If you like “reality tv” like the Duggars, you’ll find some amazing stories on here of incompetence, self-interest and tragedy.

      ETA – and they’re all exclusives, because they won’t be covered anywhere else.

    • Bugsy

      Ha, really?

      I had my son in an OB-assisted hospital birth. The contractions weren’t as bad as my monthly menstrual cramps (darn endometriosis), and I had to practically beg for an epidural. My mom had me in an all-natural hospital birth.

      Just two anecdotes, but since the NCB crowd is so fond of using anecdotes as evidence…

    • Daleth

      There certainly are good midwives out there, no doubt. But would you mind posting what you think CPM training is? I don’t mean whatever education the CPM you happen to know got… I mean, what training do all CPMs have to have in order to become CPMs?

      The reason I’m asking is… well, you’ll find out when you start googling to see what training CPMs are required to have.

  • reader

    “Dr” Tutear, you are a moron. That is all…

    • Stacy48918

      You couldn’t even spell her name right and she’s the moron? Ha!

      ETA: That is all…

      • carr528

        I was thinking the same thing! It’s not like her name is right at the TOP of the page.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Classic. Shouldn’t that be “moran”?

      • attitude devant

        or maybe ‘maroon’?

        • Who?

          or marron, which is delicious.

          • attitude devant

            And French!

          • Who?

            okay-around here it is a freshwater shellfish. But most things French are pretty good.

    • ArmyChick

      She earned an MD and was a clinical instructor.

      What are your credentials?

    • araikwao

      Aaaaand she (?he) crashes out on the ad hominem!! Normally such a reliable move, even in the hands of a novice commenter, but spelling the author’s name incorrectly? noooooo.. *shakes head*

  • Ducky

    As long as the decision is an informed one, and there are no issues with the baby or mother and both are monitored with a hospital available in case of complications, a home birth should not be ruled out if that’s what the parents want.

    • Stacy48918

      Except it’s never an informed decision. How many midwives reveal that MANA’s neonatal death rate is 450% higher than hospital birth? Or that homebirth increases the risk of brain damage 8 times?

    • Nick Sanders

      And you have no problem with the number of individuals and organizations trying to make sure that the decision is not an informed one, but clouded by lies and bullying?

      • Ducky

        I can’t and won’t speak for other parents, but myself, I do my own research and not from one source. I ask questions and get informed opinions. It is too important a decision to just decide on emotion alone.

        • Nick Sanders

          That doesn’t answer the question.

          • Ducky

            Yes, a lot of organizations/individuals are pushing their own agenda and often by lies and bullying, and this is very wrong. We all have free agency and should never accept an opinion just because it “sounds”right. It’s a sad fact that some people do get wrongly influenced by others, but both sides of the homebirth/hospital argument are not innocent. the influence goes both ways. No-one should be forced, by whatever means, to go against their instincts on what is right for them.

          • Nick Sanders

            There are people whose instincts tell them they should trepanate themselves, or that they have one leg too many despite having the normal allotment, or that the way to health is going as long as they possibly can without eating.

            Screw instincts, I am perfectly fine with bad instincts being overruled by a competent third party.

          • Stacy48918

            Instincts say that the earth is flat and the sun goes around the earth.

            I’ll stick with science, thanks.

          • Who?

            All fine.

            Who takes responsibility though? This rights argument is really interesting to me.

            Someone decides, after doing all their research, to have a home birth. That is their right. They have been advised there is a higher risk of death or damage to mother and baby if they persist in this choice.

            If it goes wrong and mother stays home because the attendant doesn’t recognise a problem-like the woman who bled to death in her tub in Melbourne-who is responsible? Don’t bother suing the attendant, she has no insurance, and probably owns a goldfish and an old car.

            If mother stays home against advice, she may well choose to sue whoever didn’t sufficently scare her into hospital care.

            If it goes wrong and mother is transferred to hospital and the outcome is death or serious injury-who is responsible? Sue the hospital, which has insurance and a distaste for publicity. So we all pay.

            I’m all for instincts, I’d just prefer to not pay higher insurance premiums to indulge them.

          • Cobalt

            Statistics are incapable of innocence or guilt.

            The cold fact is that homebirth kills babies that would have survived with proper medical attention.

          • Jennifer

            Actually, the “cold fact” is that MORE babies die – statistically – from botched HOSPITAL births than normal, low-risk home births. Do your own research before you start touting “cold facts”.

          • Cobalt

            Source?

          • NoLongerCrunching

            Nope. More babies die in hospital for several reasons. One, more babies are born in hospital. Two, hospitals take care of premature and sick babies. And three, homebirths that start going bad and have time to get to the hospital are counted as hospital deaths.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Jennifer – I asked this question yesterday. Can you provide three examples of where the baby died from a “botched hospital birth”?

            And I give you this one: there was a doctor in Texas who botched a forcep delivery and crushed the baby’s skull. That was really, really bad. He completely blew it, and should have never done that. He should have done a c-section instead, because that is more indicated.

            So your turn. You claim there are all these botched deliveries that kill babies, can you provide two more examples?

          • Daleth

            Omigod sorry it took me a minute to answer your post because I had to stop laughing. “More” babies die in the hospital because 98.5% of American babies are born in the hospital. More people die in car accidents than in unicycle accidents for the same reason. What exactly is your point?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            More people die from sober driving than from drunk driving, and that is a fact.

          • Dr Kitty

            Cite?

            Can you use said citation to produce the rate per 100,000 of low risk hospital births that are “botched” and result in death, and then do the same with your homebirth statistics?

            Does this still show what you think it does?
            Can you see any potential flaws in the data used to produce those numbers?

            How does this compare with the studies I’ve linked to above which show that even in low risk populations homebirth doubles, trebles or quadruples the risk of the baby dying?

            Critical thinking skills- engage!

          • KarenJJ

            Nobody is talking about “forcing” women either way, but about incompetent practitioners who have no clue about what they are doing and reading a bunch of rubbish info on the internet and deciding that they too can make a living catching babies who would be illegal in all other developed countries.

            Also about the dreadful misinformation about the risks of having a homebirth.

            As for “instincts”, most people have a very strong instinct to protect their children and to honour that instinct they deserve the best information we have available.

  • Ducky

    Due to a medical condition that stops me going into labor naturally, I had to be induced for all my labors. If I could have had a home birth, I would have, I settled for going home the same day. No one has a right to tell other people what is best for them. Only the people going through it knows what is right.

    • Life Tip

      Only I know if I’m too drunk to drive.

    • Nick Sanders

      Except in this case, “best” is objectively measurable. The method that results in the fewest injuries and deaths is the best.

    • Fallow

      You’re confusing some important things here. People certainly do have the right to give birth at home if they want. However, you don’t get to claim it’s an equally valid choice, when it’s been proven over and over that it’s not.

      It would have never been the right choice for me, to prioritize my feelings and comfort over any risk to my baby’s life. Other people feel the risk to their baby’s life is worth it. I reserve the right to think that is a narcissistic and loathsome way for a parent to feel about their child.

  • small town EMT

    This is a horrible and biased article. People give birth at home everyday. To belittle and criticize her for the way she is choosing to receive her education is judgmental to say the least. I gave birth in a hospital for all my pregnancies due to a medical condition, but my last was a very natural birth with no complications and was delivered by my sister. Your opinion is just that yours. You could have surely given your opinion in a less insulting and derogatory manner. I am an Emergency Medical technician that did not attend a college as some do. I did however go through strict classes conducted by a qualified instructor. Does that make me a “pretend” EMT? I guarantee you that every person I help and save does not think I am pretending.

    • Nick Sanders

      Well, it certainly doesn’t make you a doctor.

      • sarah

        neither she nor I claim to be doctors now do we. If you call your local ambulance in an emergency do you first ask for the diploma and education of those coming to your aid? If they do not meet your strict standards would you turn them away and risk death or further injury?

        • Who?

          If they were an unmonitored, unsupervised cowboy setup, you bet. Like these homebirthers with CNMs would be, in that case I’d be safer with a taxi driver.

        • Cobalt

          Fortunately, emergency responders are regulated. You have to meet actual standards, unlike homebirth midwives.

          • Life Tip

            I’m guessing none of those standards included a logic class.

        • Nick Sanders

          They may not have claimed to be a doctor, but they claimed equal or greater authority on birth than an obstetrician.

        • ArmyChick

          I wouldn’t be too worried while calling an ambulance because I know that in order to be employed as an EMT one has to have training. It is a requirement. Lay midwifery? Not so much. I trust my boyfriend’s judgement who is an EMT-B and a former Combat Medic more than a lay midwife with 50 births under her belt….

          He knows how far he can go before someone else with more education and experience is required to step in. Lay midwives have no accountability. Other people are left to clean up their mess.

    • Cobalt

      People drive drunk every day, too. Most of them survive. Doesn’t make it safe.

    • moto_librarian

      So as an EMT, have you ever gotten to transport a home birth gone wrong? It’s pretty damned awful to take a woman with a baby’s legs sticking out of her vagina, begging for them to save her baby who is already dead.

      • sarah

        I am guessing you have done that very thing correct? I have delivered a few babies and not all are perfect but just like her training, I am trained for all kinds of situations

        • moto_librarian

          No, I have not. The point is that this type of thing HAS happened, and it should not. CPMs fail to adhere to their scope of practice, and when they screw up, nobody reigns them in. Doctors, nurses, and EMTs get stuck cleaning up the aftermath, and it affects them deeply.

          • sara

            First off as an EMT I am not STUCK doing anything that is why I volunteer because I want to help others in times of need. I am guessing you would not understand the concept of volunteering like this. Closed minded people usually do not.

          • Nick Sanders

            And at this point I have to ask: are you helping them for their sake, or for your sake? Because it’s starting to sound like the later.

            You also seem to show no regard for those who do those professions as an actual career, and can’t just take a break whenever they start feeling overwhelmed by the things they have to deal with.

          • f

            By saying I am not stuck shows I do it for them, It is a very selfless act to get out of bed at 2am to help someone, be gone 2 hours minimum and then come home and go to my regular job. I did not get to take a break when a school bus rolled with kids in it and I was on scene for 7 hours, or when the drunk killed a mom and 2 small kids, or when someone stands and watches the home they love burn ( I am also a firefighter, and a girl) Volunteer does not mean I get to choose the people I help. You obviously have no clue about volunteer departments. It is people like you are to closed minded to understand. If I have to explain why I do it, you will never understand. You seem to show no regard for those that volunteer. Then again not everyone can do that kind of thing.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m not showing lack of regard for “those that volunteer”, I’m showing lack of regard for you personally.

          • Guest

            You have declared yourself the small town hero, yet are unwilling to extend that same courtesy to all medical staff, who I assure you, are up at all hours themselves doing all they can to protect and save their patients. I do not see how any of your training (which may help slow down bleeding and help with CPR and other momentary life saving techniques) could POSSIBLY assist with any serious birth outcome, or anything else, for that matter. Why you would disrespect a profession like doctors who have literally given up years of their life to their studies is beyond me, just because you showed up at some brief training. Grow up please.

          • Stacy48918

            But she goes in at 2am for 2 hours!!!! *whine*

          • dbistola

            Right. The hospitals, however, are dark with no one there. It is all up to her and her 8 week training session.

          • dbistola

            and yes, with your particular type of self aggrandizement, I have a hard time believing that you are truly motivated by concern for others. I realize I’m being nasty here, but the fact that you would disrespect the medical profession because you were able to fulfill volunteer EMT requirements comes off as quite self worshipping, with very little merit to back it up.

          • Nick Sanders

            “You have declared yourself the small town hero”

            I did? Where? I think you have me confused with someone else.

          • dbistola

            I was talking to the EMT. I thought I replied to the EMT. She/he keeps changing the name!

          • Nick Sanders

            I noticed that too. First Sarah, then s, then z, then sara, then f. I wonder what comes next.

          • Who?

            f off??

            Just wondering…

          • dbistola

            Ok, then I reply to myself below…sorry…discus confuses me but it really is pretty obvious

          • dbistola

            ok yes I did reply to you. Sorry, accident

          • Nick Sanders

            Hey, it happens. No harm done.

          • Stacy48918

            No, we have no disregard for people with lesser medical training claiming to be more than they are. An EMT is nothing like a CNM or an OB. Period. This is about YOUR attitude, not all volunteers.

          • dbistola

            You have declared yourself the small town hero, yet are unwilling to extend that same courtesy to all medical staff, who I assure you, are up at all hours themselves doing all they can to protect and save their patients. I do not see how any of your training (which may help slow down bleeding and help with CPR and other momentary life saving techniques) could POSSIBLY assist with any serious birth outcome, or anything else, for that matter. Why you would disrespect a profession like doctors who have literally given up years of their life to their studies is beyond me, just because you showed up at some brief training. Grow up please.

          • Guest

            So you keep changing your name so I am not sure how to address you, but here it goes: Hello Female Fire-medic. For over three years, I was an EMT in a small town on a volunteer only ambulance crew. I was never paid and my work was strictly voluntary. Then I went to med school and became an ED doc (lots of ED docs are former fire-medics, btw). And i’m a girl as well. So I know EXACTLY what training you have and what you can and cannot do. I’ve cleaned up the drunk driver’s victims both on the street and in the ED, just like you. I volunteer regularly (last week I was part of the “every 15 minutes” campaign).

            So tell me, exactly what are you capable of doing in your EMERGENCY care? The OB lectures in EMT classes are what, 3-4 hours? If you are a paramedic, maybe 1-2 days? I have a lot of respect for EMS. But if you think you are able to do much beyond pray and run hot like a bat outta hell to the hospital with a trapped breach, a stuck dystocia, a placental abruption, an AFE, or an eclamptic seizure, you are deluded.

          • Fallow

            Two of my closest, oldest friends are EMTs who started out as volunteers. I gotta say, I’ve never seen them pat themselves on the back the way you are. Never have I heard them declare their selflessness, and tell other people nonsense like “you would not understand the concept of volunteering like this. Closed minded people usually do not.”.

            If you really were such a great, competent person, you wouldn’t need to brag about it, or use it as a tool against other people in an argument.

            Gotta also say that I’ve never heard either of my friends say they were as qualified as an OB to deliver emergency care in an obstetric emergency. They’ve told me, “Our priority is keeping the mother alive. We cannot save the baby in many of these situations.”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Two of my closest, oldest friends are EMTs who started out as volunteers. I gotta say, I’ve never seen them pat themselves on the back the way you are.

            Shit, even Johnny Gage and Roy DeSoto (the paramedics from Emergency!) had their usual main objective of “start an IV with D5W-TKO and transport as soon as possible”

            I mentioned yesterday that my dad was a volunteer EMT. He did it for 40 years. In our town, he was in the ambulance (a station wagon) on its first emergency call (a heart attack – the victim died). He wasn’t even an EMT yet.

            In all that time, he NEVER boasted about what he did. His goal was to get them to the ER to let the doctors take over.

            I don’t remember him ever talking about delivering a baby, but he certainly didn’t want to.

        • Cobalt

          All kinds? So you would be confident resolving a shoulder dystocia? Cord prolapse? Hemorrhage? Uterine rupture? Stuck breech?

          • sarah

            Yes I would be comfortable in those instances to provide EMERGENCY care

          • Cobalt

            Equal to the OBs and NICU staff in the hospital?

            Or stabilize and transport the mother, and pray for the baby?

          • D/

            And *in the hospital* is the key piece of the question asked here.

            The last maternal transport by ambulance that I participated in as a NICU nurse was very unusual. The OB was riding with me and 2 paramedics in the ambulance and an L&D nurse was driving his vehicle behind the ambulance. (He had admitting privileges at the receiving hospital and would be staying to deliver the baby at that Level III NICU facility and was not planning to ride back with us.)

            Ten minutes into the trip, the patient blurts out ‘Oh no, I think I’m having a bowel movement!’ … OB looks me in the eyes asks me if I have my “stuff” ready, nodded yes, and held on dearly for the fastest interstate ride I’ve ever taken.

            Even with an OB, a NICU nurse, an L&D nurse and 2 paramedics in attendance that is NOT a NICU *team*, and if that 25 weeker had delivered on the side of the interstate it would have been, at best, a hot steaming mess!

          • Who?

            What would that look like? You’re talking, I think, about doing the best you can with your knowledge and training in an acknowledged emergency.

            Posters here are not happy with CNMs who take the opposite view to you-they can handle anything, nothing is an emergency, it’s all good.

          • z

            You really do not want to know that that looks like. I go through extensive training and continuing education. I know midwives and none of them think they are better than a doctor, they know the signs and when to proceed to a hospital where a midwife can still assist.

          • Nick Sanders

            Except the statistics don’t bear that out as being the general situation.

          • Jennifer

            Actually, a CNM worth anything IS trained in shoulder dystocia, cord prolapse, hemorrhage, uterine rupture, breech births, etc. Watch “Birth Story: Ina May Gaskin” or “The Business of Being Born” and find out what CNMs actually know before you jump on the bandwagon of OB docs who are simply too busy [I assume] to do the research and discover that there are NATURAL solutions [which midwives know] to ALL of those problems.

          • Who?

            So lots of them are worth nothing, then, the stats seem to indicate.

          • dbistola

            Oh yes you did, you did cite these sources as established medical literature. Seriously, you should be ashamed. It is astounding that you assume that OB docs are too lazy to do “research.” Newsflash-it is part of the job. It is a requirement. Medical journals are a must. Stupid movies based on fallacies and established nutjobs, no.

          • Cobalt

            Name 3 that are proven to be effective. Bonus points for a “natural” resolution for uterine rupture with survivors.

            I’ve watched BoBB. I found it to be a misleading, patronizing Crock of Crunchy Crap.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            A CNM? Sure. A CPM or DEM? No. Listen, I use CNMs for my prenatal care and births. CNMs may be able to recognize a uterine rupture or a cord prolapse but they can’t perform a CS to remedy such issues. For that you need an OB. And NO, there are no natural solutions for uterine rupture, placenta abruption, cervical lacerations, severe hemorrhage, or serious perineal tearing. You are kidding yourself of you think there are. But by all means, keep telling us all about everything you learned BOBB.

          • Haelmoon

            I am an OB – we are not lazy, we spends hours and hourse keeping up-to-date with the current literature. Yes, our obstetrical research is not perfect, but each case is unique, there will never be “perfect” studies to guide us. We also have experience to help.
            I have yet to see a uterine rupture that could be dealt with “naturally” without a willingness to sacrifice mom or baby. Breech babies can be delivered vaginally, often without intervention. But what happens when the arms or the head get stuck – how would a midwife (or lay midwife) deal with that? I practice my manoeuvres for breech at every c-section for breech and every second twin, I teach emergency obstetrical care. Please describe a “natural” treatment for a cord prolapse. If you are lucky, it is a multiparous lady who is fully dilated, she can push the baby out faster than what I can do. If you are unlucky, the cord is compressed, the baby is suffocating – if we are lucky enough to be in hospital with a team ready, we can save most of those babies.
            What about conditions like placenta or vasa previa? I know how to manage those conditions surgically with good maternal and neonatal outcomes. However, the classical teaching for a previa was to sacrifice the baby – perform an internal podelic version after rupturing the placenta to access the baby and then to tamponade the bleeding by pulling the baby into the cervix (often manual dilation of the cerivx was needed too – how painful and barbaric, some moms did survive and occasionally a baby if mom was a multip). I suspect that many CPM would not even understand what I just described.
            I (like many OBs) have dedicated my life to caring for women, providing safe deliveries for babies. I could care less how women delivered (c-section or vaginally, epidural or not), it is the outcome of a safe and healthy mom and baby that matter. Natural is not better, safe is.

          • Nick Sanders

            I would love to hear the natural solutions to, say, placenta accreta or chorioamnionitis.

          • moto_librarian

            Ina May is NOT a CNM! In fact, we have her to thank for the CPM. What do you think a CNM can do about uterine rupture, breech, cord prolapse, etc. at home? Transfer.

            I have a dear friend who had a uterine rupture at home. Her CNM transferred her t the first sign of a problem. It was too late. Her son died. So you can go to hell.

    • Who?

      Okay. People do give birth at home every day. Where they have no choice, some mothers and babies die or are damaged.

      This young woman has no choice about how she is educated, her husband and parents dictate that, as does her home school status which may well leave her unfit for formal higher education.

      Your own birth choices are irrelevant, as is mine and everyone else’s. Neither we nor our children are defined by how they were delivered.

      Tone, don’t care.

      Are you qualifed to treat the patients you treat in the way you treat them? Are you supervised at work? If you make a mistake, or something bad or unexpected happens while you are working, is it looked into? If so, great, those things mean you are nothing like the CNMs Dr T castigates.

      • sarah

        of course I am qualified, I am licensed, I do not have a direct supervisor, it is a volunteer service, If something happens, of course it can be investigated, but I am also protected by laws in my state and country.

        • Who?

          And that’s great-licensing, training and investigation capacity are important to good care.

          As a volunteer, you should be protected. Most CNMs are not volunteers, charging thousands of non-refundable dollars, in advance. They have their own cereal box training and registration, and when something goes wrong they are comforted by the inevitability of the outcome.

          • s

            I could do the same job and be paid for it as well. It does not have to be volunteer.

          • Who?

            You have high level qualifications and you choose to donate your time and skills to help others. That’s to be applauded.

            You are nothing like a CNM.

          • Medwife

            *ahem* I think you mean CPM. I know, the titles are confusing. It’s a mess.

          • Who?

            My bad, thanks.

          • Medwife

            CNM, CPM, CM, LM… Not shocking that people get mixed up!

    • Sadibg

      Very well said!! Nobody should be criticized or talked down to for wanting a homebirth and it is absolutley unacceptable to act like you are better just because you paid more money for textbook knowledge! Just because someone goes to school for a longer period of time and pays more money for their degree does not in any way mean that they are better at what they do. This is a skill and talent that Jill seems to love and that God has blessed her with.

      • Nick Sanders

        So you are saying that knowledge and training have no bearing on outcome? None at all?

        • Stacy48918

          I’m sure if she gets cancer she’ll see a lay oncologist. Home prepared chemo. Cuz schoolin’ don’t matter.

        • Cobalt

          Homeopathic education. The less you learn, the more you “know”.

        • Medwife

          Hee hee. Picturing telling a credentialing committee that thing about having no formal training but “a God given talent”.

          • Stacy48918

            Bet that suffices at Crown College of the Bible where the one Duggar sister is trying to escape to…

      • Stacy48918

        Yes, going to school does in fact make one better at what they do if the body count is smaller.

      • Stacy48918

        Why didn’t god bless her with an easy birth, then? Seems god was busy since he couldn’t manage to get that gigantic baby out at home like she wanted.

        • Jennifer

          God blessed me with the good sense to be able to research and determine what kind of birth I wanted to have, to find qualified professionals to help facilitate that birth, and to have an appropriate plan of action if anything went awry. Birth is never “easy” – I don’t care if you are hyper-medicated to the point you remember NOTHING afterwards; your body will still be reeling from the experience. “Less painful” does not equate “easy”. I had an EASY birth, [in comparison to many], last October with my son, but it was not painless by any means! If you are as into “science” as you claim to be, why not research the REASON the pain of childbirth exists, physically speaking? It’s truly amazing what has been discovered after studying thousands of births over the years: the pain of birth [for the mother] actually helps PROTECT the baby during the birthing process! Maternal pain causes the release of particular hormonal cocktails which cross the placental blood-barrier into the baby, which then help do important things like keeping fetal heartrates steady during the descent and exiting the birth canal. No pain – no hormones from mom. [Baby can’t produce them on their own.]

          • Who?

            He’s a tricker, isn’t he, your God? Gives you what he thinks you need, not what is best for you or your baby.

            All the while taking attendance and smiting those he doesn’t like, which sometimes looks to the rest of us like the same treatment doled out to those who think He does like them.

            Solipsism seems to be the first tenet of some of these beliefs.

          • Cobalt

            I have actually had an easy, damn near painless 3rd birth, without painkillers. In the hospital. I was up and walking in 20 minutes, I followed my baby to the nursery for his first exams and bath.

            It happens. Not often, but it happens.

          • Who?

            You must be mistaken. What protected that baby if you were in no pain?

          • Cobalt

            The doctor, with assistance from the monitors, the nursing staff, some steroid shots a few weeks earlier and a forewarned NICU team. They did a great job of it, too.

          • Who?

            Oh now I get it.

          • Cobalt

            And please, name the hormones involved, and explain how a stress-response chemical that causes heart rate spikes in the mother can simultaneously cause lack of heart rate variability in the baby.

            Also, is heart rate variability in the baby a good sign, or a bad sign?

          • theadequatemother

            crap if the baby’s internal cardiorespiratory homeostatic systems are so crappy that they can’t keep their heart rate “steady” (whatever that means) then that EXPLAINS why the natural childbirth movement vilifies HATS guys! I finally understand it. Wooly compression + no maternal hormones = unsteady heartrates.

            Seriously though…eagerly awaiting references.

            And also wondering what those poor babies are going to do after birth esp if their older sibling gives them an energetic hug or someone *gasp* swaddles them…do they magically start making hormones to keep their heart rates steady? Or should we have them all on telemetry? Or maybe they get them from breast milk?

          • Ash

            WOOLY COMPRESSION! I think you’re onto something!

            Perhaps a homeopathic wool tincture would be appropriate? 10X dilution, or if you wanna be really crazy, 9x!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’m pretty sure that the correct answer is HEMP.

            Hemp is the solution to all the world’s problems.

          • Stacy48918

            Again – if you know so much, please show us one single study about the benefit of labor pain. Just ONE.

            Or those hormones. Name ONE hormone that you are referring to.

            god killed a huge number of mothers and babies before the advent of modern medicine. I’ll trust modern medicine, thanks.

      • Cobalt

        “Just because someone goes to school for a longer period of time and pays more money for their degree does not in any way mean that they are better at what they do.”

        Really? So they’re just spending all that time and money for giggles?

        Education matters. Training matters.

      • Who?

        Well Jill had the skill and talent to understand homebirth wasn’t going to work, and God blessed her with the sense to go to hospital, so there’s that.

      • dbistola

        I criticize anyone who puts their own child at a higher risk for no good, solid, sensible reason. I pass judgment on poor decision making, and condemn decisions that risk the lives of the innocent. Happy to do it.

        • Stacy48918

          Exactly. The right to make a stupid decision doesn’t shield you from criticism.

          • dbistola

            Well put. Anyone has the right to make these decisions.

          • Stacy48918

            I’m always telling my staff – “I can’t make people make smart decisions.”

          • Who?

            Yes-by all means make whatever decision you want, but don’t expect others to applaud it.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Do you know what goes on in that longer time of going to school?

        Actually, don’t bother. You are too clueless to even know how clueless you are.

  • ミューニズ コセット

    Millions of women’s all around the world gives birth at home every day. Why make this a bid deal just because she is a Duggar. Thank God we are not in a 3er. world country and she was able to go to a hospital and her baby is safe and healthy. My husband was 11-lbs. when he was born in Cuba, 62 years ago and he was born in their family farm. Him and 4 other brother’s & sisters all with a midwife. No big deal!

    • Stacy48918

      Well the babies that die don’t have TV shows, do they?

    • Cobalt

      So the (at least) triple risk of neonatal death at homebirth compared to hospital birth is “No big deal!”? What about the 8 fold risk of brain injury? The women and babies worldwide who die from treatable complications because they can’t get to a hospital?

      Every dead baby is a big deal.

    • Who?

      And what was good enough then was good enough now, hey? They probably had to carry water to the house, live by lamplight, and go hungry when the crops failed. Awesome.

      When whooping cough or measles came by, people would have died. A piercing injury could cause death by tetanus or infection. An infected tooth was an agonising death sentence, unless it could be pulled out, with out pain relief, by the local whoever.

      Modern medicine is so hopeless, isn’t it?

    • Fallow

      Yeah, and those women and their babies die all the time. I’m sure these women, for example, would love to have hospital access: http://www.coolearth.org/ashaninka-news/saving-rainforest-strengthening-lives

  • moto_librarian

    Dear parachuters,
    Let me give you a few tips:
    1. You will be asked to provide empirical proof for your claims. If you cannot do this, you will be called out.
    2. Arguments about Dr. Amy’s “tone” are duly noted. Thank you for your concern.
    3. Anecdotes do not equal data.
    4. MANA’s own data shows that home birth has a perinatal mortality rate that is at least 3 times higher than low-risk hospital births. This is a remarkably robust finding that has been replicated in the peer-reviewed literature.
    5. CPMs would not be allowed to practice in any other developed country. They lack the rigorous clinical and educational training required of CNMs.
    6. Ad hominems and foul language only reflect poorly upon you and demonstrate your poor intellect.
    Sincerely,
    A regular who had a totally natural childbirth and am alive to tell about it only because I did it in a hospital (with a CNM).

    • Amy

      Can I add a few more?

      7. Yes, babies do die in the hospital. Hospitals serve, on average, a higher-risk population. And yet, despite the difference in risk profile, hospital birth is far lower risk. See point number 4 above.

      8. A high cesarean rate on its own, out of context, without any information about the population served by the hospital or the reasons for each cesarean, is not indicative of “scalpel happy” doctors or doctors who want to get to a golf game or anywhere else.

  • rebecca

    you wrote this AFTER she gave birth. in a hospital.

    • Stacy48918

      And your point is????

      • Bombshellrisa

        She can’t read-which seems to be the point of every poster who has parachuted in today.

    • Guest

      The baby was born late last night. 12+ hours after this post was published.

    • Cobalt

      Nope. Posted yesterday morning, before any news of Jill even being in labor. Not that that changes anything.

    • Bombshellrisa

      The article was posted BEFORE it was announced baby had arrived and where.

    • Who?

      You’re wrong, but if you were not, what would your point be?

  • Not a bitch like you

    Wow. You’re a horrible person. What would every woman in the world do with out scalpel happy doctors? Fuck off

    • attitude devant

      Looks like we’re reaching new lows in commenters….

    • Cobalt

      One in seven would die in childbirth.

      • Life Tip

        Oh snap.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        And 5/8 would reach adulthood.

    • Who?

      You’re my new favourite. Pithy, insightful, to the point.

      You’ve certainly won me over with your trenchant, well thought-out remarks.

      • Cobalt

        I appreciate their concern for women without access to medical care. So considerate to think of the poor and disadvantaged.

        • Who?

          I’m tearing up now at the thought of all those women without medical care NABLY cares about.

          The name does beg the question though-what kind of bitch is she? I have a few thoughts, perhaps after a few more posts the answer will become more clear.

      • momofone

        Yeah, I was on the fence with the first two sentences, but who can resist the insight and logic (not to mention the dignity, of course) of the second two?

  • Candace

    While I agree that things can go wrong during a home birth and hospitals are prepared and equipped for all of these situations, you’re higher education has not made you better than her. I’m a nurse and would never dream of being so rude and careless with my words to a patient. I hope you give your patients the education they need without insulting them. You have taken this platform to publicly insult a new, young mom who I’m sure if she met you in person would only show you kindness. Your article speaks volumes of your character and nothing of hers.

    • Stacy48918

      Well she isn’t talking directly to Jill, is she?

      The fact that you think Dr. Amy would talk to a patient the same way that she writes on her blog is evidence that you are a parachuter and have never actually read her blog before today.

    • Cobalt

      Her article was right, and Jill agreed that a hospital birth was the right choice.

    • CharlotteB

      Tone is irrelevant when your life (or that of your baby) is at stake. I’d rather have a rude professional who preserved my child’s life and brain function than a sweet self-proclaimed “expert in normal birth” who tells me my child wasn’t meant to live.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’m a nurse and would never dream of being so rude and careless with my words to a patient.

      What patient is she being rude to?

      This is a blog, not her practice. We aren’t patients, we are readers and commentors.

      So I fail to understand your point.

    • Life Tip

      I’m sure Jill would show you some superficial kindness, although if you don’t follow her particular brand of fundamentalist Protestant Christianity, she probably thinks you will burn in hell forever. So there’s that…

      • Stacy48918

        Apparently, all of my ex’s side of the family and church members still really “love” me and are praying for me…but I haven’t heard a peep from a single one of them in months.

    • Cobalt

      Unless Jill offered to risk my child’s life by denying it access to basic medical care through using her as a midwife instead of an actual medical professional.

      That’s not kindness. That’s exploiting mothers and risking lives for financial gain.

  • Berta

    Wow, it must have taken a long time to write these angry lies. I dont even like the Duggars that much but this is rediculous.

    • momofone

      Berta, could you be more specific? What exactly is “rediculous”?

      • Berta

        You know what? you’re all correct, theres nothing angry, judgemental or inaccurate about this article at all. Enjoy.

        • Stacy48918

          Well if you can’t give even ONE teeny tiny specific example…why should we care about your opinion in the slightest?

        • Cobalt

          I am perfectly willing to concede angry. But the preventable death of babies at the hands of charlatans makes me angry, too, so I’m totally fine with it.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          What is inaccurate?

        • momofone

          That doesn’t really address any specifics. Which leads me to believe that you don’t care for the tone of the article but can’t figure out quite what it is you disagree with.

    • Cobalt

      Which part of the post is lies, as opposed to just facts you don’t like?

    • Who?

      What does liking the Duggars or not have to do with anything? As you’ll see if you follow these posts for a while, nature isn’t fussy about who lives and dies.

      And if unnecessarily dead and damaged mothers and babies doesn’t make you angry, well I suggest you look to your values which may need attention.

  • Crickett Forrest

    Oh for goodness sake…she had her baby in the hispital and is apparently doing just fine! Women can have totally safe deliveries at home and have been doing so for centuries!

    • Nick Sanders

      Thy can also have horrendously fucked up deliveries at home, and have been doing so for centuries. But now there’s a way to avoid that, and people are bragging about not using it.

      • Crickett Forrest

        Nick…I doubt you have had any babies so quite frankly you can have some horrible deliveries in a hospital…check out the number of instances of births that have been bungled by physicians.

        • Nick Sanders

          Compared to the number that have been bungled by midwives?

        • Who?

          Do share all your stats on that one, I’ll read them.

        • Stacy48918

          Sexist.

          Men can’t care about the safety of babies at birth?

          • Cobalt

            Even selfishly? Even if they don’t give a damn about their mothers, sisters, daughters, and partners, all men were once babies.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          .check out the number of instances of births that have been bungled by physicians.

          Can you maybe name 3? And I’ll even give you the first one: the doctor in Texas who messed up using forceps (he should have just done a c-section and not even tried the forceps. Big mistake on his part)

          Your turn…

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Twelve things you shouldn’t say to Dr. Amy … unless you want to appear very foolish:

    http://www.skepticalob.com/2012/11/lets-review-twelve-things-you-shouldnt-say-to-dr-amy-unless-you-want-to-appear-very-foolish.html

    • Stacy48918

      You need to make this the “featured comment” on this post or it’s going to get buried.

  • Mary

    Of course, all of this is moot, since she did indeed have her child in a hospital.

    • Cobalt

      Not if she promotes homebirth, and markets herself as CPM. If she goes on to make a living selling out the safety of mothers and babies, it’s very relevant.

  • LibrarianSarah

    Dear people who are coming here from facebook:

    You are out of your league. The regular commenters here are largely medical professionals with decades of education and clinical practice on you. Even those who are not medical professionals are fairly well versed in this topic because that is what this blog is about. You are not going to win an argument here and will most likely make a complete ass of yourself. If you still want to proceed go ahead because I really need some entertainment this evening but don’t say you haven’t been warned.

    • LibrarianSarah

      Dear regulars:

      Does anyone want wine or popcorn?

      • Nick Sanders

        I could really go for a soft pretzel.

      • CrownedMedwife

        …it’s already popping. Butter and salt? I’ll pass on wine, sure to be entertaining enough sober.

      • Somewhereinthemiddle

        I’m thinking an Italian Sub.

      • Stacy48918

        I’m thinking Cadbury eggs…..

        • Nick Sanders

          I read that they changed the recipe this year and they taste really awful now.

          • Stacy48918

            Taste the same to me. Even better on mark-down now. 😀

          • Who?

            Are you and the kids well? Hope things are going ahead for you.

          • Stacy48918

            Well enough, I guess. Several ups and downs but in general things seem to be going my way. I like my lawyer and our judge. Going to cost me a fortune ($20-30K?) because he’s fighting every last thing – still can’t get my son in school, grrrrr – but it will be well worth it to be free of him and that lifestyle. 🙂

          • Who?

            The hurdles must be tough, and probably your husband has a lot of people cheering him on. It’s so much easier to obstruct than it ought to be. Sorry to hear about the expense, but as you say it will be worth it to be out of that world.

            Good to see you here, and thanks for the update.

            Look after yourself.

          • Stacy48918

            The judge wants to move things along though so I’m hopeful it will wrap up by the end of the year. Merry Christmas to me! Then…I’m getting a puppy. 😀

          • Who?

            Great to hear it. Judges are mostly on the ‘mainstream’ side of things, so if you’re only asking for what is reasonable in mainstream world, your husband is going to look bad fighting against it.

            And a puppy is a lovely way to start your new life.

          • Stacy48918

            This is what I want, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Has to be male, though, because spays are just about my least favorite surgery. No way I’m doing one on my own dog.

          • Who?

            Yay love a cavvy. Around here you get either really spindly ones or ones that are the same build as (say) a beagle. Is that just a feeding thing or are there a couple of different sub-breeds? Lovely dogs.

          • Stacy48918

            No sub-breeds, but there are always sub-par “breeders” with dogs that aren’t up to breed standard. I’m talking with a high level AKC show dog breeder for my pup. Also going to cost me a fortune, but will look like it’s supposed to and come from healthy, tested stock.

          • Who?

            So which is the breed standard look? They are nice in different ways.

            Amen to healthy stock btw. My little bitser has hip displaysia, dodgy teeth and sore shoulders. Lucky he is very lovable. We would have been better off buying an expensive dog.

          • Stacy48918

            Like this – high level AKC show breeder too. Not the one I’m talking to though
            http://www.infinidaddog.com/index.html

          • Who?

            Got it, great dog and really lovely keep in mind as you navigate the next few months.

          • Stacy48918
          • Empliau

            I have a Cav myself, a tri girl. The spay was expensive, but we have a good vet we trust, and if that’s what it costs, thank goodness you only spay her once! A fabulously great dog as long as you don’t need a watchdog – the only use she’d be against an intruder is to trip him/her as she rushed up to beg to be petted. Loving, sweet, and housebroken. Also not fat, since she adores fetching balls. Tl;dr – best dog ever.

          • Cobalt

            We’re here for you.

          • Stacy48918

            Thank you. 🙂

          • Elizabeth A

            So sorry for the expense and delay, but good on you for keeping on.

          • Stacy48918

            There is no alternative but to keep on, ha! But I know what you mean and I appreciate it. Thank goodness for introductory zero interest credit cards!

          • araikwao

            I’m going to try a really large, representative sample and I’ll let you know. (but Australian chocolate tastes better than American, so result may not be generalisable)

          • Who?

            Chocolate bilbies!!!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Which explains why there are tons of them in the clearance bin at the grocery store today.
            I’ve got Pinot Grigio and Erin’s popcorn here ya’ll.

          • moto_librarian

            Hmmm. I had several and didn’t notice a difference.

          • Medwife

            That’s a dirty lie. They are delicious as ever.

          • Who?

            After the first couple anyway…like wine, always start with the good bottle because after that you won’t care so much.

        • LibrarianSarah

          Holy crap! You just reminded me that I bought Cadbury eggs yesterday and haven’t eaten them yet! I am now so happy!

      • Bugsy

        Please pass all of the popcorn, extra butter please! Sadly I have to pass on the wine due to the little one growing in my stomach…but bring on the popcorn!

      • Elizabeth A

        Home with strep. Can someone recommend a cocktail that won’t aggravate my throat? Baileys and cream, maybe?

        • Cobalt

          I like slushies with a sore throat.

        • Amy

          Tea with honey and a shot of whiskey.

          • Who?

            or just cut to the chase and have the whiskey…

      • Amy

        Popcorn sounds so good!

      • carr528

        I’ll take the wine. I need some after the Notre Dame game. (d@mn UConn).

      • Liz Leyden

        Got any chocolate?

    • ArmyChick

      I need some distraction away from my sinus infection that has given me the worst mouth pain of my life along with a herniated disc that has left me bed bound for 3 weeks.

      So far, I am pretty entertained by the home birth defenders lol

    • Jennifer

      Dear person who obviously thinks all those using Facebook are morons: we are not. Many of us – while giving in to the admittedly mind-numbing Facebook scene on occasion – are, in fact, educated professionals, ourselves. I AM well versed in this topic – more so, I suspect, than you, since I can give details of the physiological reasoning that natural birth [when possible to attain] is far superior a choice than medicated hospital birth laden with unnecessary interventions – details you would obviously know, if you were truly knowledgable in the subject. Stating contrary opinions is not inherently making an ass of one’s self, unless done in an offensive manner. After all, that is what respectful dialogue and intellectual discourse is all about: allowing both parties to present their side with respect to each.

      • dbistola

        Oh please. You watched a movie. You read literature from a very flawed source. The fact that you consider yourself well versed is really depressing.

      • Who?

        Oh so now we’ve moved to ‘[when possible to attain]’. This site is doing you good already!

        Not all opinions are equally valid. You are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts. You are entitled to express your opinion, and others are entitled to disagree with it.

        If your qualification is watching a film, you’ll struggle to be taken seriously.

      • dbistola

        You need to also realize something. The people you are debating here are mostly medical professionals. That you consider yourself privy to physiological details they don’t possess after delivering thousands of babies and a decade of education and training…it’s shocking.

        • Somewhereinthemiddle

          But she watched Business of Being Born. She is EDUCATED damn it.

      • LibrarianSarah

        Are you the same Jennifer that got her ass handed to her by Cobalt et al. above? The same one who posted a 30+ year old study that didn’t even say what she thought it did? If so, don’t mind me as I throw my head back and laugh. Just because you jump up and down and scream that you are “educated” on this topic doesn’t make it so.

        I am also going to laugh at a NCB advocate saying that we need to respect contrary opinions when pretty much every NCB website wields the banhammer so much they might as well be called Thor.

        • Bombshellrisa

          The dead giveaway for me was when she used physiological and natural birth in the same sentence. At least quote a CNM and call maternal request c-sections an “ethical quagmire” (yes, this was a actual title for a well respected CNM’s thesis, ironic because she always says what is important for women is having choices about birth)

    • NoLongerCrunching

      A lot of the commenters are not medical professionals, but former natural childbirth advocates who stuck around, read different points of view, learned more about research and how to interpret it, learned about the grossly inadequate education required to become a CPM, and conceded that the facts weren’t on their side.

      I am pointing this out to head off the argument that medical professionals are too invested in the medical model to consider other points of view.

  • Katrina

    This article is poorly written, full of sarcasm, and doesn’t have any credibility whatsoever. She transferred to the hospital because midwives are trained to know when something is amiss and needs a higher level of training. No different than a general practitioner calling in an OB/GYN for surgery or calling in a specialist in another situation. A woman’s body was designed to give birth and it’s completely reasonable for a woman to seek care from a provider who knows how to help when nothing is wrong and knows when to call in higher help when something needs more attention. She needs applauded for going to the hospital and delivering a healthy baby as a result even though it’s not the delivery she was seeking. Somewhere in the last 100 years America forgot that a birth is not a medical emergency the majority of the time.

    • Stacy48918

      So a midwife is great…when you don’t need them.

      What a rip-off.

    • Somewhereinthemiddle

      So I guess it is just a huge misunderstanding that maternal and fetal mortality rates have plummeted in the last 100 years?

    • Somewhereinthemiddle

      And no, she doesn’t need to be “applauded” for giving her child what amounts to basic access to quality medical care. Am I glad that she (or any other mother) does the best for her child? Yep. Do I think she deserves a cookie for making a common sense decision when it comes to the welfare of her child? Nope.

    • Ashley

      Giving birth is definitely not a medical emergency and has been happening at home since the beginning of time. I personally chose a hospital, but that doesn’t mean I have the right to judge another womans choice on where and how she wants to give birth (at home in a peaceful, calm environment sounds pretty fantastic to me). Lets stop shaming each other for our perfectly acceptable choices! Its not like she was choosing to do something illegal and in the end, ended up at the hospital anyway.. Meaning she did have her babies safety in mind!

      • Somewhereinthemiddle

        This isn’t about judgement, it is about making decisions that have been demonstrated to be far more dangerous especially for babies. Or by all means, lets just emotionally support one another right up until babies end up dead or severely brain damaged. Listen, I used to think like you until I kept reading here right on through my discomfort. It’s worth taking a look around and reading more. It’s eye opening.

      • Cobalt

        What about moms who don’t bother with car seats? Is that a perfectly acceptable choice? Why is that different than safety during birth?

      • FEDUP MD

        Cars have been around for over a hundred, and before the invention of modern car seats, millions of kids have ridden in cars and did just fine. Lots of kids scream and cry being put in the car seat, and it doesn’t seem to be a great experience for them. Parents should have the choice for their kids to have a peaceful, calm ride in the car, just as they used to when I was a kid.

        Or not. That would be silly.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You know, we always tell the stories of how we used to never wear seat belts and sat in the back window of the car when we rode in the back seat.

          And the lesson is NOT “we should do that today” but “Man, we were stupid”

          • Who?

            Man, we were lucky. Our parents did the best they could with the materials to hand. Just as most of us try to now.

            I don’t know anyone who died in a car accident as a child, or fell and died from hitting their head on the tarmac playground surface. Doesn’t mean it isn’t better to wear a seatbelt and fall onto a softer surface. Like the ad says ‘why wouldn’t you want what’s better?’.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            My dad was a volunteer EMT and went on every ambulance call, so I got to hear all the details of car accidents. I don’t remember any kids dying in car accidents, but others, for sure. And lots and lots of near misses.

            Personally, I would have been a lot better off wearing a helmet when biking. And elbow pads, for that matter. I had enough bike wrecks

          • FormerPhysicist

            I knew a couple of children (and teens) that died in car crashes. I also know someone who shot out one eye with a bb gun. I seem to hear and recall these things.

          • Who?

            Horrible. And memorable.

          • Life Tip

            Additional lesson: children who did die horrific deaths in car crashes because they weren’t wearing a seatbelt are not alive to post about it on the internet, demonstrating how “we did it and we are fine!” is not a logical argument.

          • Bugsy

            Yep, and stretching the logic back to home births – the descendants of the babies who died during birth also aren’t around to state “our moms did it and are fine!”

          • KarenJJ

            I used to ride on the tray on the back of the ute and it was fine.

          • Daleth

            Right. The correct response to people who say, “All of us grew up without wearing seatbelts and look at us, we’re all fine!” is, “That’s because the people who died from not wearing them, ahem, DIED and thus aren’t here to remind us that it was a bad idea.”

        • fiftyfifty1

          Wow, that brings back memories! None of us used to even wear seatbelts. I looooved riding in the back of the station wagon, unbelted, on long car trips….

          But then this girl at our church, 2 years older than me, died in a car crash. Their car rolled, just a few miles from their home, and her body went half out the the window, and the car smashed her head and she lived for a few hours, and they cut off the top of her skull to try to accommodate the swelling, and the whole church had a prayer chain, but she died. And if her mom had made her wear her seatbelt, she would have been fine.

          And from that day forward my entire family wore their seatbelts. Always.

    • moto_librarian

      The problem is that when you are an expert in normal birth, you don’t know how to recognize when things have become abnormal. CPMs are notorious for brushing odd severe complications by relabeling them “variations of normal.” Mom has rising blood pressure? No problem – just follow the Brewer Diet. Mom is post dates? Babies know when to be born! Baby is breech? Women used to deliver breeches vaginally all the time. By the time they get help, it is often too late. Jill is lucky that her baby is okay.

    • Life Tip

      Who exactly designed a woman’s body? I’d like my money back because mine seems a little faulty.

      • KarenJJ

        I’d like to lodge some future scope of work changes.

    • momofone

      Why exactly would one need help when nothing is wrong?

    • Nick Sanders

      “A woman’s body was designed to give birth”
      Then why is the birth channel still narrower than a baby’s head?

      “Somewhere in the last 100 years America forgot that a birth is not a medical emergency the majority of the time.”

      Probably around the time gynecology was invented as a way to stop birth from being a medical emergency.

  • Charlene

    So glad baby Dilly has joined the world safe and sound. Any one can “what if” the situation to death, all that matters is that mom and baby are just fine. Live in the present people.

    • Who?

      It is great everyone is well, and it’s a fantastic outcome that the decision was made to abandon home birth and go to hospital for thorough professional care.

      But your remark sounds a little like ‘let’s move on, don’t dwell’ which is what homebirth or ‘normal’ birth midwives say when they kill mothers and babies with their ignorance and hubris.

      Living in the present is not the same as ignoring the lessons learnt from the past.

  • Amanda

    Omg this is crazy there r so many people who have babies at home and they r perfectly fine. Theres more of a risk having a baby in the hospital then at home.

    • Nick Sanders

      Please, show us the statistics then.

      • Amanda

        I have lots of friends who had there kids at home never been to a hospital and were fine

        • Nick Sanders

          That’s not statistics. Care to try again?

          • Amanda

            Stop asking for statistics

          • Cobalt

            Because there are none that support your emotions?

          • Amanda

            Not even sure what that is im not a scientist idk

          • Nick Sanders

            Wow, you’ve already moved into the realm of self-parody.

          • Spamamander

            Calling Doctors Dunning and Kruger… oy.

          • Who?

            Amanda thanks for playing.

          • Cobalt

            Then maybe you should have advice from actual doctors before making medical decisions.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Well, I am, and whenever I make a claim I have the data to prove it… You should at least try to do that. You know what is good about scientists? We believe everything if you have good data to prove it and we are not afraid to change our beliefs. And no, knowing a couple of people (or 20 ) that had a successful homebirth is not having enough data.

          • Cobalt

            My point is there is no amount of “feel goods”, comfort, faith, hope, trust or love that will save a baby in distress, suffocating in the womb. That’s all homebirth has to offer.

            At the hospital, they can prevent or treat issues before they become fatal. They can know if the baby is safe, and intervene if it’s not. A hospital birth might not be all warm and fuzzy, but your baby is more likely to survive, and with brain function intact.

          • Nick Sanders

            I only asked once. But if you continue to whine and demand we listen to your assertions, I will continue to ask.

          • Spamamander

            You made the claim that it’s just as safe to birth at home because you “know lots of people who have done it”. Science has the hard data and statistics that show the risks involved. It is up to you to prove your claim.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            By what other measure should the informed consumer be making their choices? Or do you not want to talk about statistics because you have no idea what the statistics say about home birth? Or do you just not understand statistics at all?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Why????? You use statistics to buckle up your seatbelt, you use statistics to decide what to wear today according to the weather forecast. You probably use statistics to set the price to buy or sell your house. Finally you or at least your doctors use statistics in order to recommend a particular treatment for any health condition under the sun… But not for childbirth!!!!!

            Please pass me the popcorn!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I agree. It’s disingenuous to do that, because they know damn well you don’t have the first fucking clue what you are talking about. And they do.

            I got a little general advice for you, Amanda. There is an internet meme out there known as “Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion.” It says that, regardless of the topic, assume that someone participating knows more about it than you do.

            Unfortunately for you, you are in a situation where EVERYONE knows more about it than you do, it appears.

            I recommend you go back to whatever lame-ass Facebook page brought you here and whine about how all of Dr Amy’s minions were meen to you and wouldn’t accept your obvious points, and just wanted to talk about statistics and not about childbirth. It will make you feel better. You’ll still be a clueless buffoon, but the others will sympathize with you in your ignorance.

        • Roadstergal

          I know lots of people who drove drunk and were fine. So drunk driving is safe.

          • Amanda

            That’s different

          • Cobalt

            How?

          • Amanda

            Its common sense

          • Stacy48918

            So is not giving birth away from emergency help.

          • Cobalt

            Common sense? Really? Or homebirth “feels good” to you, emotionally, so it’s fine and “safe”, but drunk driving doesn’t, so it’s bad.

          • Nick Sanders

            “Common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down by the mind before you reach eighteen.”

          • Who?

            Love this one, but having been bombarded with ‘common sense’ as a reason to do everything from cutting welfare for one parent families to leaving corporate tax alone so as not to scare away the big boys, I’m coming around to the view that an appeal to ‘common sense’ is in fact the last refuge of the scoundrel, to paraphrase some famous American.

            It’s where the shallow, patronising and thoughtless go when they run out of new ideas.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Common Sense:

            It’s where the shallow, patronising and thoughtless go when they run out of new ideas.

            Repeated, just because it deserves to be.

          • Who?

            Well thankyou. It is a line that tends to bring discourse to a sharp close.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I guess I lack sense.

            So that means you’ll have to explain it to me.

          • Roadstergal

            Using numbers, compare the risk of crashing while driving drunk to the risk of a dead baby while giving birth at home in the US. Show your work on ‘different.’

        • Cobalt

          And no one I know has more than 5 kids, so the Duggars don’t really exist.

          • Amanda

            They do exist

          • MichelleJo

            um

          • Nick Sanders

            Just walk away. Walk away…

          • Amy

            Do we have to? This is easily the most entertaining internet thread I’ve read in months.

        • Spamamander

          “Anecdotes do not equal data”.

        • Somewhereinthemiddle

          I know very *few* people who have birthed at home and two have ended up with dead babies.

        • Roadstergal

          So now that you’ve established that this is all unfamiliar ground to you, here’s the dirty little secret. It sounds like your friends had simple, uncomplicated births – which they would have also had at the hospital. At the hospital, they monitor you, and if nothing goes wrong, they support you, catch and evaluate the baby, clean up the mess, keep you comfy for your pretty pics (a friend of mine had exactly this birth at the hospital).

          If something does start to go wrong, they can catch it and fix it early, or intervene quickly if necessary. At a homebirth, if something goes wrong, there’s a delay in detection, as the monitoring isn’t as good, and a delay in getting to where effective treatment is (even if the midwife doesn’t block the mom from going to the hospital or just run away and ditch her, which has happened).

          So your friends took a bet. They bet that nothing bad would happen, and they got lucky. It’s like betting that you won’t get in a crash, and not buckling up your kids when you drive them around. Yes, you’ll have friends who get lucky…

        • Guest364

          Glad to hear your extensive research with “lots of friends” is so conclusive. You should be published.

        • FEDUP MD

          I rode around without a car seat, as did all my friends, when I was a kid and was just fine, as were they. We sat in the back of station wagons and pick up beds, even. By that argument, I should not even both with car seats for my kids, since I don’t know anyone personally who died in a car crash without one.

          My kids have the appropriate car seats for their age and size. Because statisistics and science.

          • Poogles

            My family had various POS vehicles during my childhood, which meant we sometimes didn’t have a working seatbelt to use. Not to mention the one van we had that only had an unbolted bench seat in the back which my brothers and I were buckled into (the whole bench would lurch forward if my step-dad slammed on the brakes).

            Technically, we’re all fine. Though I did break an arm in one crash and I have a nice scar on my face from another crash – neither time did I have a seatbelt.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Not to mention the one van we had that only had an unbolted bench seat in the back which my brothers and I were buckled into

            AWESOME!

            I can just see that VW van buzzing down the road with the bench in the back….

          • Poogles

            Eh, not that cool – just a beat up white cargo van 😉

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Sorry, I’m still seeing a blue-green VW van.

    • Cobalt

      According to whose statistics? Every study or survey ever done, including MANA’s own, has shown the death rate is higher at home.

      • Amanda

        If u do it right then its safe

        • Cobalt

          Define “right” and “safe”.

        • Stacy48918

          Try again. That’s not how science works.

          • Amanda

            If u have a midwife and/or a nurse with u at home when u have a baby then its fine

          • Nick Sanders

            Unless of course, it’s not fine, which is well documented to happen.

          • Amanda

            Well sometimes having a baby in a hospital isn’t safe either.

          • Stacy48918

            Statistics?

          • Nick Sanders

            At which point we use a thing called “math” to figure out which happens more often.

          • Cobalt

            Your baby is 2/3 less likely to die in a hospital birth.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Well… No. Healthy at term babies do not die during delivery in hospitals. At least they are far less likely to die than at home. You should read a paper by Dr. Grunembaum or the study by Rooks regarding that matter.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Sometimes people sober people die in car accidents. Therefore, drunk driving is just fine.

            Right? Because that is your argument.

            Actually, listen to what people say here. Even in a hospital, you have to be prepared for bad things to happen. It’s just that if they happen in the hospital makes it more likely to resolve it.

            I don’t get it. “Births are dangerous in hospitals, too, so therefore it’s fine to do them at home”? That doesn’t make sense.

          • Stacy48918

            Except for all the obvious dead babies:
            Hurt by Homebirth

          • Cobalt

            And what’s the relative effectiveness of a CPM to an OB with NICU team in obstructed labor? Shoulder dystocia? Fetal distress? Hemorrhage? Cord prolapse?

          • Amanda

            Idk

          • Nick Sanders

            Then you also don’t know what’s safe and what isn’t.

          • Who?

            So why then did Jill transfer? Did she not have the ‘right’ homebirth supporters?

            This attitude is so reminiscent of those wretched ‘cure cancer’ people with their diets and potions, who then tell the grieving families of the dead that they did it wrong or didn’t want it badly enough.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Tell that to commentors here whose babies have died at homebirths with (because of) a midwife.

            Tell them how fine it is. Come on. I dare you.

            These are real, live people who have lost their babies. I’m sure they’ll love to hear how fine it is.

        • Stacy48918

          For starters, most homebirth midwives refuse to do it “right”.

          If we were try to have the safest, “right” homebirth, here’s what that might look like:
          -CNMs only (no CPMs, LMs, DEMs)
          -no first time moms
          -no multiples

          -no post-dates

          Even then – homebirth still is roughly twice as likely to end in a dead baby compared to comparable risk hospital birth with a CNM according to CDC statistics.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          If you drink and drive right, then that is safe, too.

    • carr528

      Actually, I had four babies in the hospital (c sections no less!), and they were all fine. My sister in law had two babies in the hospital, and they were all fine. In fact, all of my friends have had babies in the hospital, and THEY were all fine too. So, if we’re going by anecdotes, hospitals win.

  • Liz Leyden
  • LibrarianSarah

    So what site was a link to this article posted on?

    • attitude devant

      I know, right? Some of these trolls have no idea what this site is about.

      • LibrarianSarah

        I think that they are just fans of the TV show and feel that they need to come to the “defense” a family that doesn’t give a damn about them and probably thinks that they are going to go to hell. It is kind of amusing if you really think about it.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Somewhere on Facebook.

      • Cobalt

        Then you’re about to get a million hits.

        • Somewhereinthemiddle

          It’s about to get *crazy*, lol!

  • Wendy

    You’re an idiot AmyTuteur!

    • Cobalt

      Because she came to the conclusion that the hospital was safer before the parents did?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        This is really an interesting comment. It’s like, yeah!

        Dr Amy says, “This is a disaster in the making, she needs to go to the hospital.”

        In the end, she goes and gives birth in the hospital, and now we get people coming in with “Take that, you! Homebirth is great!”?

        • Cobalt

          Shows a certain lack of critical thinking skills.

          • Heather Rische

            Nope, shows that CPM’s do not fail when they transfer, they are successful at knowing when medical intervention is needed.

          • Spamamander

            … and that’s why we have so many Hurt by Homebirth stories and dead babies, right?

          • Nick Sanders

            Legends in their own minds.

          • Cobalt

            Then why is the death rate at homebirth so much higher than hospital birth?

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Visit hurt by homebirth. You might find out a couple of interesting things…

          • Stacy48918

            ONE anecdote does not show anything about “CPM’s” (sic).

            That’s why we have studies and statistics. And MANA’s own “study” of CPMs showed a 450% increase in DEATH at homebirth.

          • Heather Rische

            1.The use of an apostrophe with an acronym is common usage and considered acceptable to assist the reader. I am willing to debate that- I used to resist that apostrophe but I understand that language evolves and decided to evolve with it.

            2. I wasn’t trying to use an anecdote in place of studies and statistics, merely putting out there that hospital transfer is not a failed home birth, it is a successful home birth that transferred appropriately. (all talk of the phenom that is reality TV and the Duggars aside)

            3. I’m not going to debate what the MANA study revealed with The Minions, but there are other analyses of that and other home birth studies that contradict what you’re saying. I have tried to reason with the followers of “dr.” before, and suddenly studies and statistics were no longer welcome in the discussion, nor were discussions of methodology of data collection and analysis, so have a nice day! Seriously, please do.

          • moto_librarian

            Ooh, I’m a minion now? My 2 year old will be thrilled given that his favorite movie is Despicable Me 2.

            The reason your “studies” were unwelcome was because they were garbage. If anything, MANA underestimates the toll of home birth because data collection is voluntary. So spare us your usual load of crap.

          • Stacy48918

            My 5 year old just about lost his mind when the Minions preview came on before “Home”. He LOVES those little guys. 🙂

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Nope, shows that CPM’s do not fail when they transfer, they are successful at knowing when medical intervention is needed.

            Then why do midwives have worse outcomes for homebirths than are obtained in hospitals?

            Oh, in terms of “successful at knowing when medical intervention is needed” how do you explain the midwife who is editor of Midwifery Today (so not some random person) outsourcing the question of whether she should transfer a patient with no amniotic fluid? Was she successful at knowing when intervention was needed? She didn’t know what to do?

          • Poogles

            ” the midwife who is editor of Midwifery Today (so not some random
            person) outsourcing the question of whether she should transfer a
            patient with no amniotic fluid?”

            IIRC, it wasn’t the editor (Jan Tritten?) who was present at the birth, she was “just” the one who posted the question for the attending midwife.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, but Jan was still outsourcing the question (scrambling to save any semblance of truth)

          • Stacy48918

            Agreed. It never should have made it to Facebook. She should have read it, hit reply and said “get thee to a hospital”. Period. The fact that she passed it on is a testament to how little she knows, even if she wasn’t physically there.

          • Poogles

            Absolutely – there’s no excuse for the part she played in Gavin’s death.

          • Stacy48918

            Reminds me of the Vickie Sorenson case – never should have made it to the birth center. You take a call from a preterm mother of twins saying she’s having contractions, the ONLY appropriate response is “go to the hospital”. That these “midwives” even entertain the possibility of continuing care illustrates their ignorance.

          • Heather Rische

            She was outsourcing for another midwife, who was clearly operating outside of the protocols prescribed by NARM and all of the state licensing bodies for CPM’s and LM’s… Nowhere would we be encouraged by our licensing bodies or schools to keep a mother at home with zero AFI OR with decels in the absence of labor. Anecdotes about midwives operating outside of protocol are about as salient as those about doctors doing so.

    • Spamamander

      Yep, totally an idiot for knowing that over two weeks post dates can result in some serious complications. Totally idiotic. I’m sure it was her idiocy that got her through medical school.

  • Sharon

    I had my kids at home with a CNM. This Amy Tuteur seems like an angry doc that doesn’t like homebirth. Who cares where she had the baby? Doesn’t matter.

    • Cobalt

      The baby cares, especially if it was in distress. Having a medical team available in an emergency matters, on a life-and-death level.

      • LibrarianSarah

        Pretty sure the mother would care too if she starts to bleed out.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Babies born at home, with CNMs or not, are more likely to die than those born in the hospital. How can you NOT care?

      And if it doesn’t matter where she had the baby, why did you feel it so important to tell us that you had your kids at home?

    • JJ

      I had 3 healthy babies at home. One with a CNM and 2 with a CPM. Now I know that homebirth is more dangerous than hospital birth. Place of birth matters for moms and babies. I am having this one at the hospital! Thanks Dr. Amy!

      • Spamamander

        Good on you for caring more about mom and baby’s well-being than all the hype. Just because things went well before doesn’t mean it will always be so. Best of luck and health!

    • Nick Sanders

      Hey, if I devoted my life’s work to making sure mothers and babies were as healthy and safe as possible, then a fad came up that centered around endangering both to make the mother feel “special”, I’d be pretty angry too. Angrier still if it blossomed from there into a full fledged movement that cared more about the birth attendants than the patients and bullied anyone who tried to ensure things where done with the best medical care available.

  • Amanda

    Yawn. For all we know Jill was induced or had a c-section. She may have planned a home delivery but obviously that didnt happen. Maybe she realized it wasnt a safe choice being so late? We don’t know how things unfolded either way.

  • Tammy Alles

    I think the writings of this article are incredibly unprofessional! This woman/so called author needs to be bitch slapped! Congrats Jill and Derrick!

    • Cobalt

      And here I was thinking that the eventual hospital delivery proved that this “woman/so called author” (who is actually an OB) had a real point.

      And Jill and Derrick agreed.

    • LibrarianSarah

      Nothing says “classy and professional” like saying someone needs to be “bitch slapped.”

    • Who?

      Well that is a very loving, measured response there Tammy. You’re clearly a very thoughtful person.

      If hitting makes people smarter, I’m guessing you’ve never been touched in anger in your life.

      Have a nice day.

  • Guest

    From comments on The Official Duggar FB page. Am I the only one who wants to punch that Lauren chick in the face?

    • Nick Sanders

      15 lbs, 2 1/4 feet, no pain meds. I want to comment further, but everything I want to say either comes across as patronizing, or involves blaspheming.

  • Stacy48918

    Can you imagine the response on the L&D floor when they got the call, “Hi, we’re coming in..mother, father…and camera crew.” Good grief.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I wonder if they didn’t call the camera crew after the birth was done and had gone OK. I notice that Jill’s wearing makeup and looking remarkably groomed for someone who just delivered a baby. (Not that I blame her for wanting to look her best before someone takes a picture for distribution to the world at large. Especially since she’s been taught that her looks are the only thing about her that is of any value at all.)

      • Stacy48918

        I’m sure it was orchestrated one way or the other. Hopefully, even though it “turned out OK”, the TV show will play up the danger. That’s their job. They live on drama. So even though there wasn’t a “tragic end”, maybe just playing up the danger and drama of a transfer will be frightening enough to viewers.

        • Cobalt

          More likely it’ll show that planning a homebirth is just fine, because “see, transfers are easy”. Never mind the inaccurate risk assessments, delayed transfers, and emergencies that are too time-sensitive for 911.

          I also imagine the Duggars are aware of how much a homebirth death would hurt their brand.

      • guest

        Well, actually, they’re taught the most valuable thing about a woman is her reproductive system.
        The rest of the body is just sinful and tempts men, and must be hidden. Unless it’s long curly hair because the weirdo former head of their church likes it.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          And yet if their husbands “stray” it is because they let themselves get “fat and ugly”. So the message is that their bodies are sinful and horrible and they’d better be beautiful or else.

          • Amy

            Yeah, it’s this weird look that’s a balance of sexy and all covered up. They can wear Gap tops, but only with floor-length denim skirts. They can wear pounds of makeup and curl their hair, but tattoos and piercings anywhere other than the earlobes are verboten. And forget short hair or hair that’s an unconventional color.

            I’m still trying to figure out how one refrains from getting “fat and ugly” when they’re eating things like tater tot casserole and yet working out is unladylike/immodest.

          • Cobalt

            If you’re always pregnant/postpartum/nursing how do you know if you’re overweight? How do even know what your usual weight is?

  • Thank goodness she had the sense to go to the hospital! I was hoping she would. Looks like forceps delivery to me.

  • Daleth

    Judging from this picture, she had a hospital birth after all! Yay. Wonder what changed her mind?

    • Stacy48918

      So much for “trust birth”. Clearly they trust the hospital more when there’s a problem.

  • Itscalledlife

    I don’t agree. I have had 5 children in hospital. One was 3 WEEKS overdue the Dr. just made another appt. for me. The Dr. also didn’t believe I was in true labor when I was at the hospital. She showed up when I was 10 cm and pushing, my baby was under stress and I’m blessed to have her. Just a reminder it also happens at hospitals with Dr. care.

    • moto_librarian

      Out of curiosity, how old are your children? Early dating ultrasounds were unheard of until at least the late 1990s, and there was less confidence about due dates as a result. I know that my mother didn’t have any ultrasounds with me (I was born in the late 1970s).

      We know that there are some bad doctors out there, but standards of care change with time as well.

      • Mac Sherbert

        Right! My MIL claims to have gone almost 4 weeks over due with of one hers in the 60’s. She said when she showed up in labor the doctor said “Where have you been? We’ve been worried about you?” Anyway, luckily they were both fine. It was big baby and she says the baby really didn’t act or look like a newborn.

        • momofone

          I was born about a month before my due date, which was way before the use of ultrasounds. It was chalked up to dates being off. (I was healthy and weighed just under 7 lbs, so was definitely full-term.)

          • Cobalt

            It used to be fairly common to have a due date off by several weeks, hence the development of tools like the Ballard Maturational Assessment to determine gestational age in the neonate.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I don’t know the details of the Ballard Maturational Assessment and what is all considered, but I think you can go a long way using 40 weeks = 7.5 lbs, and add or subtract .5 lb for every week late or early, respectively (I actually made that up on my own empirically, but discovered later that it actually very closely mirrors the average birth weights for those gestation times).

            Of course, the variation is about ±1 lb (so most 40 week babies are 7 – 8 lbs), but it’s still a great starting point. Of course, that means that in reverse it’s worse, so given a weight, you can say ± 2 weeks.

            You tell me that a baby is 8.5 lbs, I’m guessing close to 42 weeks. ± 2 weeks.

            You get to 43 weeks, and you should be seeing a big baby.

          • Cobalt

            The Ballard score uses physical and neurological markers (development of muscle tone, palm creases, lanugo, skin changes, etc.) to determine pre/post maturity, and is less subject to GD or IUGR making a baby seem more or less “done” than weight alone.

            But for the average healthy baby, weight is a good enough proxy if you’re not the neonatologist.

          • Mac Sherbert

            My second baby no GD was 9.6 at 40 weeks 1 day. The due date was accurate to the day as we had fertility treatments and monitoring.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            And?

          • Mac Sherbert

            Using weigh to estimate age is basically just guessing. That’s all.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            No, it’s not. It’s probability, and we have the statistics that bear it out.

            That you had a 9 lb baby at 40 weeks in no way contradicts anything I said in the comment above.

          • Amy

            Unless the placenta starts to go. My daughter was 42w1d (c-section after two, count ’em two! failed inductions) and she was about 6½ pounds. No vernix either.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah, and those are the types of situations that fall outside the normal range.

          • fiftyfifty1

            Well I suppose that’s better than nothing. Kind of along the lines of if somebody is 5’9″ or taller, it’s a man, and if shorter it’s a woman. Let’s just say there is a good reason maturational assessment tools were developed.

          • Itscalledlife

            Early January blood test confirmed.

          • Cobalt

            That doesn’t give you a due date, though. That means you had hcg in your bloodstream on the day of the blood draw.

          • Bugsy

            Yep, and a single HCG blood count doesn’t show _how_ pregnant a mom is, just that a mom is pregnant. They usually conduct multiple to ensure that the numbers are rising appropriately with that point in pregnancy.

        • Poogles

          We are pretty certain my MIL went to 44 weeks, under the care of an OB. She is sure of the date of conception (not a “natural” conception, so to speak). It just blows my mind every time I think about it – then I hug my husband.

      • Itscalledlife

        I had an ultrasound at 8 and a half months.

        • Cobalt

          An ultrasound at 8 and a half months won’t give you an accurate due date, there is too much normal variation in size at that point. Dating ultrasounds are done in the first trimester, usually by 8 weeks.

      • Cobalt

        On ultrasounds, pregnancy dating, and going overdue (by 3 MONTHS!!)

        http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,797153,00.html

  • moto_librarian

    http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20912726,00.html?xid=socialflow_facebook_peoplemag

    Baby is here, delivered in the hospital.

    • Trixie

      Thank goodness.

    • Mac Sherbert

      Hope the hospital part was to be induced and not because of some problem. Glad all is well in the end though.

    • theadequatemother

      Are those forcep marks on the kids face?

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        I wondered that, too.

      • Cobalt

        If so, it’s a REALLY good thing she went to the hospital.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Looks like it to me, but I’m not an OB. Another possibility might be thrombocytopenia causing bruising from the normal trauma of delivery. Either way I’m really glad she went to the hospital. Though having read the article I feel even more sorry for her. Her father picked out her guy? Um…

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Also, her headband has her name on it. I may be making something out of nothing–some people like that sort of thing with no ulterior motive at all–but I can’t help but wonder if she got it because she was tired of being called by some random name starting with J and wanted to remind her parents who she was.

          • Stacy48918

            Hahahahahaha

        • Medwife

          I’ve seen one forceps baby in my entire life so I don’t know if those marks are characteristic. Could just be “stork bites” though. Babies can be blotchy. 9#10 first baby! She’s lucky it was vaginal (at least, hopefully it was a good thing and she doesn’t have major pelvic floor damage).

          • Lauren

            I wonder what position his head was in- if he was in the ROT or LOT position, for example, the side of his face could be kind of banged up. My son was in the ROT position and I pushed for 3 hrs before having a c/section. He was 10 lbs, 14 oz. and his had been impacted in that ROT position for the length of most of my 26 hr labor. He looked like a pumpkin that had been sitting on the ground on its side too long.

          • Medwife

            Babies can look kind of scary after those long second stages. You tend to be able to see the exact direction they were asynclitic 🙂

        • MaineJen

          I caught that too. Might as well have been an arranged marriage…

      • Bugsy

        Exactly what I was wondering.

    • Candikins

      I see in the pic she still has a blood pressure cuff on her arm and the IV in her hand. Did she perhaps have a c-section? The only two times I had a cuff and IV line in long after baby was born was when I almost bled out with my first and when I had a c-sec with my last. With my middle child, who was a fairly uncomplicated birth, by the time he and I were cleaned up and visitors were in there all my lines had been removed and the cuff was off. Will be interesting to hear the birth story.

      • Ash

        I think there is going to be a TV episode about the birth.

        • Cobalt

          I wonder how accurate it will be.

      • Cobalt

        Preeclampsia treatment also, sometimes you have to stay on mag for a while after.

      • moto_librarian

        They left my line in until I was almost 48 hours postpartum because there was a very real chance that I was going to need a transfusion. With my uncomplicated epidural birth, it was out within a couple of hour of delivery.

      • Bugsy

        They left my IV line in (epidural, followed by pitocin postpartum) for a few hours after my son’s birth. It’s possible that it was vaginal. To me, the baby’s face looks a little bruised (but it could be the lighting).

        • Lauren

          Depends on the hospital, but yes where I work dads/partners only scrub up for c-sections, not vaginal births.

    • Amy

      Does anyone else find it a little weird that her fundamentalist Christian husband is wearing an IDF teeshirt?

      • Nick Sanders

        No. Protestant fundamentalism may be hotbed of anti-semitism, but they are also really, really huge on Israel. They want the Temple rebuilt so it can get razed, kicking off Armageddon according to their absolutely literal interpretation of Revelations.

        • Roadstergal

          The Slacktivist helped me clear all of that up – they want Israel to take over the region and rebuild the Temple so that Jesus can come back and kill them all.

          • Nick Sanders

            Me too. I really need to go back and finish reading all those posts on Left Behind, they were awesome.

  • guest

    it appears the baby has arrived – in a hospital…

  • Trixie

    Someone referenced downthread that the midwife with whom Jill has an apprenticeship was found negligent by the Arkansas department of health in the case of a baby who contracted group B strep at a home birth she attended.

    It looks like the midwife moved her practice from El Paso, Texas in February 2012 to Tontitown, Arkansas. By April, pictures of Jill show up in her feed. Every other picture is a picture of Jill. https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Mommys-Butterfly-Midwifery/155580851151697?fref=ts

    • Kazia

      I wonder why she relocated…

      • Trixie

        She’s been in at least two places in Texas, also. She posted on MDC in 2010 about having relocated from Dallas. Texas midwifery has such a stella reputation….

      • Ash

        I was surprised that it wasn’t the other way around–Venessa Rose Giron had a peer review indicating negligence in Arkansas rather than Texas in regards to the birth of the child with GBS meningitis

  • Vanessa

    There’s a rumor that things went wrong with her home birth. I hope it’s not true but it’s a huge possibility that it is. No one wants to lose a child. Hopefully both mom and baby are safe and the next baby will be born with an OB.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Oh, frack! I hope that “things went wrong” means that she realized a couple of hours into stage I “Hey, this hurts and I don’t like it”, demanded to go to the hospital, punched out her husband when he said, “but honey it’s god’s will”, took a taxi to the hospital, had the baby with an epidural but no complications, filed for divorce and started writing her tell all book as soon as she recovered from the labor. I know, but I can dream, can’t I? And such an outcome would definitely be going wrong from the Duggar cult point of view.

      • Vanessa

        Lmao! That’s the best comment ever! I just Googled again and the duggarites are saying things are fine. Hopefully she goes to a hospital anyways. She’s overdue and everything. I don’t agree with almost anything these people do but no one wants to see a mom lose her baby.

  • Votre

    Amazing! It’s harder to get a dog groomer’s license in my state. Talk about a business opportunity!

  • toofargone
    • Stacy48918

      Let’s don’t kid ourselves. They want to go to Crown College of the Bible, an unaccredited college that cannot use federal FAFSA funds and whose credits would not transfer to a secular college. They likely have a dress code, judging by the fact that all the girls in the website pictures are wearing long skirts. That’s still a far cry from the “real world”. She would likely still just find some dude to marry there and have babies, stay home and never work. Which is basically what her family wants her to do anyway.

      • Mac Sherbert

        I went to a religious all women’s college with a dress code…The dress code part doesn’t bother me, but the not accredited part is a huge issue. What on earth do they study there?

        • Stacy48918

          How to find a preacher-boy, get married and have babies.

          • Mac Sherbert

            I could have done that without paying an unaccredited college. 😉

        • Stacy48918

          I point out the dress code just to show that it’s no different than her continuing to live at home. She’s heard how shameful her body is all her life, and the college’s dress code would continue to reinforce that.

      • toofargone

        Holy wow. I just checked out their website. They just attained candidate status in 2012 so yup no federal aid allowed. And they have been around since 1990 and just now sought accreditation. The programs don’t really seems to allow for much that doesn’t involve spreading the gospel: teaching (only geared to teaching in Christian school), business that involves running a church or other small Christian business, music, and linguistics. The only class not geared toward ministry is the auto mechanic class. It would be nice if they would let her go to another accredited Christian college so she could at least get out there a little.

        • Amy

          Actually, fundamentalist churches use auto mechanics in their bus ministries. Until I Googled a few fundy churches, I’d never heard of such a thing, but apparently it is A Thing.

      • rh1985

        and yet, if she manages to avoid marrying for a few years, she can limit the maximum number of kids she can have, and I wonder sometimes if she is trying to do that (having been one of the oldest and had to already help raise most of her siblings)

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      She’s 25 and still playing unpaid babysitter to her parents. I hope that she manages to find a Christian college that’s at least accredited and can get a degree that will allow her to get a real job and be free of her disgusting parents.

  • Funny how you need more schooling to become a vet tech than to deliver human babies.

    You earn that worthless piece of paper, Duggar.

    • Mattie

      I dunno, you could probably set yourself up as a certified professional vet, and go on about how natural vet care is better =/

      • Nooo think of the kitties D:

        • Mishimoo

          But…but…this homoeopathic Lilly extract is good for them! It boosts and detoxes their kidneys.

          (Sadly, I could imagine someone actually doing that. Don’t, lillies are not your cat’s friend.)

          • Roadstergal

            They sell homeopathic remedies at our local pet store. All I can think is, “But our dogs already have a water bowl…”

          • Mishimoo

            There was one lady that used to bring her mini poodle into my old work, and bragged about how (original) Rescue Remedy worked so much better for her dog’s anxiety than those pills that the vet sold her. When questioned further, it turned out that the dog had to have at least half a bottle before any effects were shown. It was suggested that giving her dog a teaspoon or two of brandy would be cheaper and have the same effect, and that both weren’t particularly good for the poor dog.

          • Alcharisi

            Yes, but good brandy would be wasted on the poor pooch. She should give me the brandy instead!

          • “Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite and furthermore always carry a small snake.” – W.C. Fields

          • Alcharisi

            Also, I especially need the brandy after hanging out amidst the pet woo for too long.

          • Oh my god, absolutely.

          • Poor thing!

            The amount of woo in the pet community is absolutely insane, especially regarding dog food. It’s the damnedest thing.

          • Roadstergal

            I can’t believe how people get about their special diets for their dogs. These are animals that will eagerly eat horse poop if I don’t stop them (come on, they lick my face).

          • Bugsy

            Yes, but think about the factory-made toxins!

          • RAW FOOD DIETSSS.

          • Bugsy

            Lol – the vet here just put our cat on some sort of homeopathic medicine as a stop-gap before turning to anti-anxiety meds. I normally wouldn’t go for it, but the cat has been peeing relentlessly on our couch (and with me bring pregnant, the smell of cat urine mixed in with white vinegar & enzyme cleaners is making me gag!). Let’s just say that we’re incredibly desperate.
            So far so good, unexpectedly. It’s salmon-flavoured and cheaper than the anti-anxiety drugs, so the cat loves it and so do we. Who would have guessed?

            (The cat otherwise gets the *best* of all-natural cat food…ermmm, not!)

          • Who?

            Hate to ask but is is helping (at all or enough) with the peeing situation?

          • Bugsy

            It’s bizarre – the cat hasn’t peed once on the couch since he went on it 9 days ago. (This is a cat who was otherwise peeing on a daily basis, grrr!) I’m someone who is totally anti-woo, but I’ll admit that whatever is in this stuff is working.

            The cat has also become quite mellow, and likes cuddling a lot more than he used to. We’re enjoying the new kitty!

          • Stacy48918

            Might also ask about using amitriptyline.

          • Bugsy

            Thanks, we will check into that!

          • Medwife

            Maybe there’s Prozac in it 🙂

          • Stacy48918

            You use Feliway at all?

          • Bugsy

            We would be up for trying it, but not while I’m pregnant. (The last time we used it, it caused me to sneeze incessantly…and a vet friend said that no studies have been done confirming that it’s safe for pregnant women – just that it’s not unsafe.) That being said, we have a diffuser here in case I really get desperate!

          • TsuDhoNimh

            Bugsy … We use tincture of Valerian for anxiety in our cats.

            It has REAL RESEARCH and stuff showing it’s an anxiolytic. if you are interested, Find me on FaceBook and I can send you the research and links.

          • Bugsy

            Thanks!

          • KarenJJ

            Same issue with our cat and the anti-anxiety medication has done wonders. No more peeing all over the house.

          • fiftyfifty1

            “Don’t, lillies are not your cat’s friend.”

            Don’t worry, lilly extract is perfectly safe for cats when prepared in homeopathic concentrations.

          • Mishimoo

            Ahahaha yes!

            I just don’t have enough faith in those preparations because mistakes have happened and left active ingredients in it, like those homoeopathic teething tablets that contained belladonna.

          • But lilies grow from nature, making it natural and therefore not a toxin!

          • Stacy48918

            Lost a kitty to lily tox this weekend. *sigh* ‘Tis the season.

          • Bugsy

            So sad.

          • Mishimoo

            Oh no!! I’m so sorry. It’s something I wish everyone knew about because it is so easy to prevent.

        • Mattie

          Is it concerning that people would probably get angrier if it was kitties or puppies =/

          • Maybe? It depends on how you view human nature. Animals, especially cute baby ones, are snuggly and harmless and make us happy. We don’t understand them, yet we share our homes and lives with them as their guardians. To betray that, with something that can’t wrap its little mind around what or why, is heinous.

            We see a human when we look at a baby, just a garden variety ‘one of me.’

      • Stacy48918

        They exist as well – they’re called breeders and groomers and the kid at Petsmart.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        I hate to tell you this, but there’s a “vet” near where I live who offers cat accupuncture and homeopathic vet care. Sigh. I don’t think (human) placebos work on cats and dogs.

        • Stacy48918

          But at least that vet actually WENT to vet school. They do have “normal” medical training as well.

        • Roadstergal

          Caesar Milan has done a lot to popularize doggy acupuncture. And his puppy book is waffly about vaccines. Ugh ugh.

          • Stacy48918

            And he teaches using dangerous dominance techniques. Can’t stand him.

          • Roadstergal

            OT, but can you link to resources to science-based training for dogs? I have one very smart and one somewhat dim pair of sisters, 1yo and generally very good and obedient, but I want to continue to work with them to make sure they stay both good and engaged with me…

          • Stacy48918

            I’ll be honest – behavior is NOT my forte….one of many reasons I enjoy ER medicine. But anything by Dr. Sophia Yin (http://drsophiayin.com/) is great. There are articles and videos on her website. Sadly, she committed suicide last year and we lost a wonderfully talented and compassionate veterinarian. 🙁

          • Roadstergal

            Thank you for the link! And oh, that’s horrible to hear. 🙁

          • Roadstergal

            Also, just because… I know puppies are always cute, but Latte, the smart one, was ridiculous. She’s a beautiful, elegant mutt now with the prettiest eyes. #InLove

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Too cute!

    • Stacy48918

      There’s actually a similar argument within the vet world. The CVT/LVT (certified/licensed veterinary technician) designation is not required in all states. In many places a “technician” may have been hired off the street and trained on the job. I have one CVT in my practice, one CVT-to-be (school finished, needs to take exam) and one non-CVT. They are all excellent…but there sometimes is resentment toward the non-CVT and non-CVTs in general.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Then again, no one considers the non-vet tech assistants to be equal to a CVT. CVTs also generally get paid more (for equivalent experience, etc).

        My wife, DVM, uses CVTs and off-the-street assistants very differently.

        • Stacy48918

          Much like CPMs and CNMs though, the general public doesn’t know the difference between an on the job trained “tech” and CVT.
          I wouldn’t call my unlicensed tech and “off-the-street assistant” but I use her the same as my CVT. We do have a true “assistant” that helps out on weekends too though and she definitely is limited in her responsibilities.

      • Fascinating!

    • Wombat

      I made a similar comment about being a Pharmacy Technician the other day. It’s really, really stunning and sad. And I live(d) in freakin’ Texas, under the rule of “No regulations” Perry (though not anymore, wahoo, not that Abbott is actually better but at least he might not be there for 15 years being useless c: ).

      • Ugghhh. Perry.

        I love how those people are all about freedom when it comes to guns and where to birth your children and being free to die from a preventable illness rather than face the tyranny of buying into health insurance, yet they’re fervently against controlled substances and family planning.

  • Charlotte

    I have long been worried about what would happen when the Duggar girls grew up and began having kids of their own, because all signs pointed to them planning homebirths. Odds are good at least one birth is going to end in the death of the baby and possibly the mom. Hopefully the inevitable tragedy will give the dangers of home birth the publicity needed to prevent other moms from choosing to have one.

    • Ash

      > Odds are good at least one birth is going to end in the death of the baby and possibly the mom.

      Seriously? No, I don’t think CPM attended homebirth is a smart idea but it’s hyperbole to say there are good odds that someone is going to die.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        I’m not sure it is. According to CDC Wonder, the rate of neonatal mortality in home birth for all comers was 6.13/1000. That is, about 0.6%. At the rate at which the girls (and presumably the boys’ wives) are encouraged to have children, they may well have 100+ children between them, making the odds pretty good that at least one of them will die.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Actually, it gets worse. The numbers in 2003-06 and 1999-2002 were closer to 8/1000. 2007-12 might be better care, but it’s probably a fluke that it was so low. And this isn’t counting fetal loss, only death after a live birth. Yeah, there’s a pretty good chance that they’ll lose a baby or two.

          • Medwife

            Plus factor in grand multiplicity, short intervals between pregnancy, and probably at least one c/s. The risk starts to climb above average pretty quickly.

          • MegaMechaMeg

            Pro Life!

          • Froggggggg

            Ha, yes. Funny how they interpret that.

        • Cobalt

          If they each have 10 kids (only half as many as their mom did), that’s 190.

          More than enough, statistically, to expect several poor outcomes.

          • Ugh.

            Even if they weren’t having home birth, intentionally crippling the children’s social development, and using the daughters as free childcare, that’s terribly selfish. Rage. :c

        • Daleth

          Wait, what? In the Cornell study of low risk home births, i.e. full-term vertex singletons weighing at least 5.5lbs, the odds of neonatal mortality in births attended by midwives was 13.2/10,000, and 18.2/10,000 for HB attended by someone other than a midwife. What births does the CDC data include to make the number so much higher (61.3/10,000)?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            All comers. Not low risk births, all births at home, which includes some extremely high risk people. The Duggars may not take it that far.

          • Mattie

            they might not want to take it that far, but if you’re seeing a CPM for your prenatal care then you’re unlikely to get a true picture of your risk, and also you’re reliant on any prenatal care being of any kind of standard at all…very very concerning and sad to imagine

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I just sorted by place of birth with no restrictions at all on maternal characteristics, gestational length, or anything else except for not including deaths after 27 days. It’s obviously including a lot of people who should never have had a home birth and yet–well, they did. And that’s what you get if you absolutely refuse to go to the hospital: over 0.5% of babies die at birth.

          • Charlotte

            And that’s just deaths. My daughter’s special needs school is full of children who survived vaginal births but were left with lifelong physical and/or mental disabilities when something went wrong.

          • Daleth

            So so sad.

          • Daleth

            Wow. And those numbers don’t even include the home birth catastrophes that got transferred to the hospital before the baby was born.

          • Daleth

            PS, what’s the death rate in that population in hospital births?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            4.15/1000. Remarkable that it’s lower when you consider that there are proportionately more premature births in hospitals.

        • Therese

          I don’t think it’s really a fair comparison because that includes all the people who unintentionally had their babies at home (including preemies) before they could get to the hospital. The rate drops to 1.86 once you specify homebirths with “other midwives”. There is no reason to think the Duggar girls are going to all stay home no matter, seeing how Michelle certainly had no problems with seeking medical care as needed.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            True. I didn’t exclude accidental home births and I HOPE that the extreme premature home births were accidental. Actually, it’s the 23-30 week premature births that I REALLY hope are accidental because a 20-22 week fetus really doesn’t have much chance no matter where it’s born whereas a 23-30 weeker’s got a good chance in the hospital, a not-so-good chance at home.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Of course, that also doesn’t count the intrauterine fetal demise cases and the home birth disasters that made it to the hospital for the actual birth. Or the damaged but still living babies. So maybe if the Duggars act moderately sensibly (i.e. go to the hospital for premature labor or when it’s clearly not working at home) they won’t end up with a dead baby, but will end up with a couple of damaged babies.

      • Charlotte

        There are 19 Duggar children and most are going to have children, probably many children. So far, all of the Duggar grandbabies have been home births and there’s little reason to think the rest won’t choose to follow in their mom and sisters’ footsteps. Out of dozens of future births, yes, odds are something is going to go wrong with at least one of them.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I’m probably a bad person for thinking this, but I’m kind of hoping for a scary near miss that gets the kids to start reevaluating their ideas about how and where to give birth. Not to mention how to raise their children.

      • Anonymous

        The near miss would be blamed on those nasty hospital “interventions,” instead of their own poor choices. NCBers would find a way to flip it into their own favor.

  • Seattle Mom
    • Bombshellrisa

      Tamara Wescott was my LC, I absolutely loved working with her! No woo, and she was honest about how hard it can be to pump until a late preterm infant can exclusively breastfeed.

    • Cobalt

      Breastmilk has become an unregulated commodity, with all the issues of any other unregulated commodity: quality issues, purity issues, price gouging, etc.

      Not terribly different from the market for illegal drugs. If only there was a safe, regulated, clean, pure, option for moms who don’t breastfeed, like, I dunno….FORMULA?

      • Kelly

        I also saw an article that said that a lot of breastmilk you buy online has cows milk or formula in them as well. Just use formula and be done with it.

    • Liz Leyden

      Wouldn’t common sense say that buying body fluids online is a bad idea?

  • staceyjw

    While Quiverfull appears to revere babies and motherhood, the reality is very different in many cases. Part of the dogma includes QF Mothers the idea that it is the utmost in devotion to martyr themselves through childbirth. Some really do believe they would be blessed to die while birthing, and the “leave it in gods hands” belief amongst the QF tends to make risk more acceptable, even something to revere as proof of your trust in god. This extends to the babies, whom are considered “angels Jesus wants in heaven,” babies that were never meant to live.

    I am sure the desire to have many blessings (as proof that you are in gods favor) drives, in part, the refusal for CS amongst some QF women. Still, I am unsure why HB is so popular, even seen as the godly way to birth, because QF does not have any teachings that are anti-modern medicine at all. My guess is the “back to the land,” self reliance on god and family alone, all natural, pioneer homemaker, as something to aspire too,also feeds into HB. All of this coincides with a distrust and even hatred for the government and all other systems related, making for a dangerous situation for moms and babies.

    Who knows when she is actually due anyway, its not as if they do early US or use any reliable methods.
    I also do wonder if any of the kids won’t have huge families.

    • Amy M

      This is going to sound awful, but maybe some of them see dying in childbirth as the only way out?

      • Cobalt

        Suicide by fetus? Neatly adverts the automatic hellfire for suicide via martyrdom elevation.

        Horrible.

      • Lindsay Beyerstein

        Quiverfulls aren’t generally anti-medicine. However, they’re so keen on female submission to man and God that they encourage women to be fatalistic about whether they’re going to die in childbirth. A truly submissive woman submits to God not only by bearing as many children as “He” sends her, but also in allowing herself to die in childbirth if that’s what “He” wants. Any kind of birth attendant is something short of perfect submission. The more qualified the birth attendant you choose, the more you care about your own life and therefore the less pious you are in the Quiverfull calculus. Kathryn Joyce talks a lot about this in her amazing book, “Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.”

        • Amy M

          That’s gross. That’s not submitting to God, that’s convincing a woman that she is a worthless piece of crap….those Quiverfull, excellent marketers, I guess. How nice for the men that God doesn’t think women should value themselves.

          • Stacy48918

            “that’s convincing a woman that she is a worthless piece of crap”
            They do a good job of convincing EVERYONE they’re worthless.

            “YOUR sin put Christ on the cross”
            “The heart is deceitful”
            “You are nothing without Jesus”

            I’m so done with that nonsense.

        • Stacy48918

          I am so glad I’m out.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Yet they’re generally pro-medicine. Isn’t it God’s will if your husband dies of testicular torsion? Isn’t he thwarting God’s will and carrying too much about his own life* if he goes to the ER and gets the torsion corrected?

          *Not to mention his own balls.

  • Kazia

    The midwife that trained Jill was found negligent at a birth that occurred last February. The baby almost died from GBS. She’s also delivered twins. I believe, but am not sure, that this midwife is planning on being at Jill’s birth as well.

    • MaineJen

      Oh wonderful. I feel like we are all present for the planning of a train wreck.

      • Cobalt

        At some point, you can’t even call it an accident.

        • cakesphere

          You don’t have to be psychic to see where this is going.

      • toni

        :[ I just saw an advert for the programme on TLC.. they showed a clip of them watching one of their baby’s early sonograms. I hope he’s all right in there and comes out soon!

    • Ash

      link?

      • Kazia

        It’s on her public FB page. Venessa Rose Giron. She runs A Mommy’s Butterfly Midwifery. The baby was born in February, and she was deemed negligent in June. I have screenshots in case anything mysteriously “vanishes.”

        • Kira

          Couldn’t see it on there. I don’t want to friend or like her. Could you post the screenshots?

          • Kazia

            http://tinypic.com/r/u60ig/8

            http://tinypic.com/r/i36maa/8

            I have more screenshots. I do need to edit them so I don’t splash my personal information everywhere. These are the two most important, IMO.

          • guest

            Wow. She talks about it like that baby’s suffering was nothing more than a hangover. How awful can a person get?

          • TsuDhoNimh

            “I will cry, sleep it off, and keep doing what I love to do”

            Nothing about revising her methods to prevent another one … just keep on satisfying her desire to play midwife.

          • Kazia

            A few months ago, she posted an article about whether or not to TEST for GBS. The article (imo) leaned toward “No.”

            Yeah, antibiotics suck. They make me queasy every single time. But they’re better than the alternative!

        • Life Tip

          I just can’t with the name “A Mommy’s Butterfly Midwifery”. How could anyone possibly take that seriously?

    • staceyjw

      Great, another incompetent “MW” training new birth junkies to be as ignorant as they are. Just what Moms and Babies need at their most vulnerable! They can blame god when they kill.
      Death by GBS ought to be a crime, as it is utterly preventable 99% of the time- and you know full well that mom was not the 1%.

      • Kazia

        Thankfully, the baby survived, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she had lasting complications.

    • Medwife

      Oh gawd. Learning from the best I see. I wonder if her “Texan distance program” involves an internship at one of the border clinics. I worry greatly for those poor women but hopefully it scares some would-be CPMs from the field.

    • Trixie

      Wow. Was it in the local papers?

      • Kazia

        I have no idea. That would be interesting to find out! I’m not sure what the local papers are, though.

  • MWguest

    The ridiculous lack of training for CPMs cannot be emphasized enough.

    Here’s a piece of propaganda that has been floating around states where they are attempting to license CPMs. They’re trying to say that CPMs have ***more*** training in birth than not only CNMs, but family physicians. Oh, it is just sad.

    http://www.illinoismidwifery.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Clinical-Experience-Requirements-for-Midwives.pdf

    • Daleth

      Omg. Neatly avoids mentioning the fact that the reason there are no minimum requirements for how many births a CNM or MD attends as an assistant is because they automatically attend hundreds if not thousands over the course of their training!

      • MWguest

        And avoids mentioning the amount of education required – at the very minimum a Bachelor’s degree and a graduate degree – in the case of the family practice physician – a DOCTORATE – before even starting to work on the clinical skills. SMH.

        I have no doubt that those slurping the CPM kool-aid believe that they are more thoroughly trained than CNMs and MDs in birth. This document proves it! So frightening. So wrong.

    • Liz Leyden

      Family Practice docs deliver babies in some remote areas, but OBs usually deliver babies.

  • rh1985

    The irony is that if she had been induced a few days ago, right after getting to 41 weeks, according to studies, she’d have a lower chance of CS than she has by waiting (because of the higher chance of needing an emergency CS at 42 weeks). If she wanted to minimize the chance of a CS because of how many pregnancies she is likely to have, she’s doing it wrong.

  • Wombat

    Any bets on her having to fess up to having fudged her dates because of this? Or just more la la ear plugging while she sets the world record for human pregnancy :p I hope they’re not doing membrane sweeps and such to try to get a baby to come when it’s supposed to based off a false date of holy wedding night conception. That being said, most evidence I’ve seen of the date being questionable was in the other direction (aka shotgun), like her showing pretty well fairly early, so I guess this at least fairly well dissproves that.

    Seriously though, I’m not quite sure I can blame the poor girl. She’s been literally brainwashed since birth, and exposed to nothing else. She knows no better. Now the parents? Total blame.

    • MegaMechaMeg

      My heart was hoping for a ten pound 36 weeker but I will take what I can get. I am catty that way.

  • mostlyclueless

    I guess I will come out and say this horrible thing that I suspect others may be thinking. Although I would not wish a bad outcome on anyone, even someone reckless and willfully ignorant, a highly publicized home birth tragedy in this situation could ultimately save lives by showing that this is really, really not safe.

    • Cobalt

      Yeah, I wouldn’t want any baby to suffer, but statistics are based on reality, not my wishes. Sooner or later, a celebrity homebirth will go publicly and horrifically wrong, and maybe, just maybe, some other lives will be saved because of it.

  • Lisa

    I don’t understand, when her mother has gone to the hospital willingly in the past, why Jill hasn’t. I’m hoping she IS in the hospital but privacy laws are keeping it quiet. Nursing school won’t happen because it can’t be done “safely”–i.e. with folks outside their cult. Unaccredited schools don’t generally produce nurses, nor do CLEP tests add up to a nursing degree. When they showed the visit to her midwife on tv I flashed on the movie “Deliverance” [no pun intended] due to the horrible look of the place on the outside.

    • Ash

      Michelle Duggar has had more than 1 homebirth and one of her children has also had a homebirth. M. Duggar is supportive of CPM attended homebirth it seems.

      • Therese

        They had two homebirths early on and then decided the risks weren’t worth it.

      • Trixie

        If the Duggars didn’t support CPMs, their daughters wouldn’t associate with CPMs.

    • Lora

      I had the same thoughts when I saw that clip of the outside of the house when they went to their first visit! Glad I’m not the only one.

  • Lana Muniz

    OT: Protect mothers and babies: Make home birth safer. Sign this petition to state legislators: https://www.change.org/p/state-legislators-protect-mothers-babies-make-home-birth-safer

    • Jocelyn

      Seriously everyone, please sign this!

    • Daleth

      That’s not off topic at all! Signed.

  • TsuDhoNimh

    “I had the opportunity to attend 12 weeks of childbirth classes with my
    14-year-old friend, who was a single mom. Through these classes, I
    learned how to coach her during the birth of her child.”

    WTF!!!!! A 14-year old “single mom”?

    This is why some religious communities like home birth and midwives. Because a pregnant 14-year old in any medical setting triggers a call to the child abuse agency and the sex abuse cops.

    • Paloma

      I think she means that they have been friends for 14 years, not the fact that the person she refers to is 14 years of age. But I could be mistaken, I just want to believe it’s the first, and not that a 14 year old is attempting a homebirth…

      • Trixie

        No, that means the girl was 14.

        • Paloma

          :O At 14 a girl should be going to school and going out with her friends, not raising a child on her own!!

    • Stacy48918

      14 year old single moms are what you get when you believe “life starts at conception”

      Poor girl.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        When you believe that life starts at conception and teaching birth control will lead to promiscuity.

  • namaste863

    First off, the Duggars are so deeply steeped in religious fundamentalism that they view a college education as dangerous and sinful. God forbid they develop critical thinking skills and start questioning their beliefs. And of course, actual scientific literacy is of Satan. Second, if having one’s mother have 19 kids doesn’t prime one to be a birth junkie, I don’t know what does. The only reason anyone pays any attention to these wack jobs is that it’s like watching a train wreck; fascinating and repulsive.

    • Mattie

      You’d think after Josie’s (youngest) extremely premature birth and intensive care in a real live hospital with real live doctors, the family would be not only thankful of medical professionals but see the importance of them in maternal and neonatal care.

      • namaste863

        I am of the opinion that the entire lot of them are completely Loony Tunes

      • Amy

        Nope, I think they just use it as more cannon fodder in their war on reproductive choice. If an extremely premature baby CAN be saved, no woman should be given the opportunity to terminate her own pregnancy.

    • Hannah

      Honestly it’s not surprising in the least. It’s the only time that the girls get any sense of attention or that their lives are worth anything, no wonder they’re obsessed! It’s the only thing they’re allowed to value about themselves. Their lifestyle says they’re worthless otherwise.

  • moto_librarian

    If this birth goes well, it will be trumpeted all over TLC as just another blissful family event for the Duggars. If it doesn’t? I don’t know how they would try to spin it.

    I have always been uncomfortable with the Duggars, even before I knew about Quiverfull and the Pearls. Knowing that information, I fail to understand how anyone can watch their show or support them as “fans.” I guess there’s a bit of fascination with these massive families, probably in large part because large families are relatively rare in developed countries. I find the Bob and Michelle obscene, and I am so sorry for their children.

    • Melissa

      They’ll say “tragedy, God called him back to heaven, some babies aren’t meant to live.” You can bet TLC will NOT actually talk about how going post-dates is more dangerous or anything of the like.

  • Maria Miller

    Arkansas is pretty lax in homebirth/CPM rules

    • Mattie

      oh my gosh, I spent so long googling trying to work out what ‘homebody’ rules were haha so glad I’m not totally dense over unusual US slang terms lol

  • Paula

    Possible typo? “Dillard is one of the 19 and counting Duggar children, is a birth junkie.” I think it should be “Dillard, one of the 19 and counting Duggar children, is a birth junkie.”

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Thanks for pointing that out.

  • Mel

    I’m also concerned that Jill may well be risking her own life. Babies don’t stop growing if the placenta is still working. She’s young and presumably healthy, but a large baby in a first-time mom….that nearly killed one of my cousins who was also young, healthy and in her twenties.

    My cousin and her son are alive today, but only because they were at a Level-3 well-staffed hospital and my cousin had an IV in so when her son got trapped in a severe, intractable shoulder dystocia, the medical team could do a crash CS. Even so, G lost a lot of blood and R needed full resuscitation. They are both fine, but if it had happened at home, we’d be decorating their graves rather than awaiting the birth of her third child.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      That’s true. In December, two mothers in Texas died at homebirths.

    • toni

      Maybe she doesn’t think it’s a big deal because her mum was allowed to go that late with one of hers? just guessing. I know they let women go to over 42 weeks all the time in the UK if the baby isn’t in trouble and I heard they used to in the states 20 something years ago.

      • Mel

        I don’t doubt Jill thinks a post-date pregnancy is fine. She doesn’t have the education or science literacy to question what she’s been told by other midwives.

        If she was being monitored by a medical professional, I’d be less concerned – daily BPP to see that the baby is still doing ok, monitoring her BP to watch for pre-ecclampsia etc.

        But she’s not. So she and her son could be very, very ill right now and no one would know until it was too late.

      • Mattie

        I actually think the general induction date for babies in the UK is 41+5 (12 days over) but it is a choice and if a woman refuses induction then she is allowed to go over, Not sure of exactly how many women go over 42 weeks though, be interesting to know.

        • toni

          My aunt went over 42 weeks even though she asked for an induction because she was sick of being pregnant. They agreed to do it at 41 and some days but it didn’t actually happen until over a week later. They just kept monitoring the baby (who did turn out to be fine but very large). This was about 9-10 years ago though so things have probably changed but I recall seeing several women on one born every minute having their babies at 42+ and they did not seem like woo-y types who would have refused a recommended induction

          • Mattie

            Interesting, although I tend to no longer judge anything or anyone based on OBEM as it’s so edited that it’s barely factual any more haha I’m not sure as to why women may be going later than they should, unless it’s to do with staffing and space. If there are no beds on antenatal, or there are a lot of women giving birth on your planned induction day then tend to reschedule inductions. Shouldn’t take a week though, that doesn’t seem right.

          • toni

            Oh really I haven’t seen it for a few years (I dont even know if they still make it) but it didn’t come across as fake. I assumed they preferred to show the more dramatic births and the parents with big personalities or interesting stories though. I remember the one with the young girl Janet and her eccentric boyfriend. She was being induced at 40+12 and in the end they whisked her off to theatre for a forceps delivery and the father (ralph?) missed it because she chose her mother to come with her. That was also one of the few episodes where someone (not janet) actually got an epidural they wanted because she just would not stop screaming

          • toni

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpRQk9DM8Og

            the two older midwives seem quite sweet and sensible in this one

          • Who?

            Like those renovation shows, it’s never interesting when the thing gets done in time, on budget and no one’s getting divorced at the end.

          • Kelly

            If that is the only way I could get an epidural, I would be screaming my head off too. That person is smart.

          • Mattie

            I mean, editing is one of the big things in any reality tv show, and I know a lot of midwives or families on OBEM have come out after and said that it wasn’t quite like it was, or that things weren’t shown. I do think that definitely they showed the more dramatic births, which probably gave the impression that things were a lot worse or scarier than they may have been, which isn’t really good for anyone.

      • Ash
  • Mel

    I’ve spent the last few years looking into the CP/QF lifestyle after I had 5 female students over 8 years enter the public school system who tested below 4th grade in reading and math and had no appreciable writing, science or social studies skills.

    Some points to keep in mind:
    -The Duggar parents are both more intelligent and better equipped financially than most families in this lifestyle. In my area, the parents are usually blue-collar workers without post-secondary education – some never completed high school but still feel more than capable of homeschooling preK-12.
    – They can be VERY susceptible to in-group marketing. The number of people who swear by “College Plus” even though no one – NO ONE – in my area has ever finished a bachelors degree in 2 years like they promised is terrifying.
    – The level of science understanding is beyond rudimentary. I reviewed some of the most common science curriculum – Apologia and another one that I can’t remember – and found them to be off by 4 grade levels or more. (In other words, senior level sciences were actually appropriate for 8th graders.) The pedagogy is horribly flawed – topics are integrated poorly – and evolution is ignored.
    To me, the oldest Duggar girls are a perfect example of cult think. The cult doesn’t want them to go to college, so they do something that is “pretty much identical”. They scare me because they literally don’t know what they don’t know.

    • Ash

      How could the Duggar children know what’s out there? They have always been homeschooled and the parents do not allow unfettered access to the Internet or other resources. I am not surprised

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        Also from what I understand about Quiverfull movement (mostly from reading Vyckie Garrisson’s NO Longer Quivering blog at Patheos) girls in these families, and probably boys too, are not allowed to do outside activities alone. If a girl wants to go study midwifery one of her sisters better want to go along to keep an eye on her (and report back if she gets too interested in life outside the rules…)

        • Mac Sherbert

          As in Jill and Jana Duggar both went into midwifery together…

          • Ash

            This is all speculation on my part and TBH I’m ashamed of ever watching any Duggar clips.

            From what I’ve seen Jana has little interest in CPM midwifery. She tags along with Jill because the siblings are expected to go in pairs or more and not be unsupervised. I think that eventually the Duggar parents let Jill spend time with her CPM mentor without a sibling alongside. When Jana spoke about being a doula there wasn’t a tremendous amount of interest in it, but you could tell Jill was really interested in CPM midwifery.

        • cakesphere

          If any of those kids manages to break free from the cult, they’re going to have a really hard life ahead of them. They’ve been kept so sheltered.

          It breaks my heart.

    • Mac Sherbert

      I think this explains it all. An Open Letter to Duggar Defenders
      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/08/an-open-letter-to-duggar-defenders.html

      • Mel

        Thanks! I’d read that already. I’ve been intermittently blogging about the Pearl’s dating book “Preparing to Be a Help Meet” or as my husband re-titled it “Preparing to be an Abused Wife.”

        • Cobalt

          I think your husband is on to something…

        • Hannah

          NLQ did a book review on it over the course of several months, it eventually got renamed Preparing to be His Doormat in the comments there…

        • The author of that post also did a review of “Created to be His Help Meet”. Debbie Pearl keeps threatening that women who leave abusive husbands or aren’t sufficiently submissive will be relegated to dumpy duplexes which might even *gasp* have other women that will strike up, erm, intimate friendships with them. Thus, we call the various open threads Lesbian Duplexes, because we all agreed that if marriage to a man looks like that, we’ll all go live in the lesbian duplexes Debbie threatens as the Worst Thing Evar together.

    • Charlotte

      As a former public school teacher I do support homeschooling, but only when done by competent, committed parents using a quality curriculum. Anything else tends to result in a poor education that closes too many doors for children when they reach adulthood.

      • Amy

        And unfortunately, it’s FAR more common for homeschool parents to not meet these relatively basic requirements. I’m a current public school teacher– I have the most knowledge and experience in my department and teach the most challenging AP course offered in our subject. I’m also bilingual (my subject area is not my second language), play several instruments, and keep up on my knowledge of the humanities. And I *still* wouldn’t dream of homeschooling. I think it’s very, very important that children be exposed to different viewpoints and teaching styles. And aside from content knowledge, there’s pedagogy.

        I don’t have a problem if parents like those you describe do choose to homeschool, particularly given the variation in public-school quality around the country, but I still think their kids are missing out on something by not getting a chance to work with teachers outside their family.

        • Roadstergal

          As someone who had many great AP classes and AP teachers in public school, I just want to say thanks for what you do to make it a great experience. I know that my AP teachers spent a lot of time and effort to make their classes engaging, to give the students _more_ than required. (Oh, and a fringe benefit of testing out of basically the first year of college, so I got more bang out of my tuition buck.)

          I know I’m going to get bashed for this, but I think there’s something a bit selfish about homeschooling. Like, the local schools aren’t up to my standards, so I’m going to keep my kids away, screw everyone else’s kids. Many families don’t want to homeschool in order to give their kids the broader exposure you mention, or their family/career/etc plans aren’t compatible with homeschooling, so if the parents who can make the time and effort to do so spend their time homeschooling instead of working with the community to better the public schools – I dunno, the idea bugs me a lot.

          • Neya

            For some of us the decision to homeschool comes from medical problems.

          • KarenJJ

            Yes, that’s been pretty common amongst some people I know whose kids regularly miss a week or so due to illness (non-contagious but they just can’t physically deal with school and school work). Several of them in the US have started accessing a “school at home” style program where tutors come to their home and the kids work to a program set out by the school district.

          • Mishimoo

            The school that our kids attend has a similar program, it’s part of what sold me on the school despite it being the same one my husband attended. The school also already has experience with EDS, so if our kids develop HMS, they already know how to help kids with joint and fatigue issues.

          • Amy

            That’s completely different and obviously not entirely voluntary. And of course, it depends on the local district. Where I work, students with severe medical issues are frequently taught at home but still enrolled in the public schools. Tutors visit them a few hours a week and they complete the assignments and tests set by the classroom teacher at the school.

          • Mel

            When I was a public school teacher, I frequently worked as a homebound or hospital bound tutor for students with serious medical issues that prevented them from attending school.

            Those kiddos did quite well.

            My guess was that the difference was that the parents of the kids with medical problems were in the class of homeschooling parents who were homeschooling was in the best interest of the kid. When homeschooling revolves around what the student needs, it works better.

            Unfortunately, homeschooling also has parents who homeschool to fulfill a personal agenda outside of what is in the kid(s) best interest. In these cases, the kids are pawns to indoctrinate or used to let the parent play teacher without having done the background education that professional teachers. These situations – which are very different from medical homeschooling – are the ones that worry me.

      • Mel

        Ditto. Seeing home-schooled teenagers (or early 20’s) return to my public school system often broke my heart. They were SO far behind.

  • sdsures

    I couldn’t get past “…with my 14-year-old friend, who is also a single mom”.

    Did I miss something? Are we in the Middle Ages?

    • Mattie

      Unfortunately that is far too common, especially in very religious states where if there’s any sex education at all it’s ‘abstinence only’ which does nothing to prevent sex, STI’s or pregnancy and as far as I can tell only succeeds in making girls feel ashamed, guilty and dirty for ‘failing’ to remain ‘pure’. Only girls though, if boys have sex it’s totally fine cause boys have no control over their actions when in the present of a woman showing her skin and using her wily feminine charms *eyeroll* not to mention little if any access to contraception or support for ending an unwanted pregnancy 🙁

    • demodocus’ spouse

      In areas that are just plain poor, even with sex ed past abstinence, its hardly unheard of.

      • Cobalt

        And for my last map…abstinence only and low income levels both contribute to higher teen pregnancy rates, overlapped they are cumulative drivers.

        • attitude devant

          Awesome map. Thanks

        • toni

          I think maybe the culture young Americans are surrounded by is so pro-premarital sex that it’s really hard for an ‘abstinence only’ education to stick. But I don’t think teaching abstinence is wrong. I was raised with those traditional values and did not have sex until I was married, same for most of the kids I grew up with. That was what was expected of us from our parents and society in general so that’s what we did. I do think perhaps the gimmicky stuff that goes with this ‘movement’ in the states, purity rings, pledges and such does not help. when your conviction to refuse pre-marital sex is based on such lame things it’s going to be hard to resist when you’re faced with the reality of temptation.

          • Amy M

            I don’t think anyone thinks teaching abstinence is wrong. It’s when the actual facts and information about sex, pregnancy, STIs and birth control are ignored or deliberately twisted that there is a problem. We have seen grown men in the US Congress admit to not understanding how pregnancy happens (“…can’t they just shut that down?”–Todd Akin), which just goes to show what happens when education is lacking.

          • Cobalt

            Ok, just one more. And this might be the worst.

          • Amy M

            Oh jeez, now there’s where the government could step in. If you are going to teach something, it should HAVE TO be medically accurate. Otherwise, what’s the point?

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