What kind of mother claims she “rocked” a birth that nearly killed her baby?

Ashley rocks 6

I don’t get it.

I am a mother of four grown children. Their health and safety is so precious to me that I am still kicking myself about the time that I leaned into the backseat to place one of my sons in his carseat and bumped him against the door, cutting him next to his eye. He recovered in moments; I haven’t forgotten in 25 years.

Therefore, I am aghast at the revolting narcissism that leads a mother to proclaim that she “rocked” a birth that nearly killed her baby.

Ashley rocks 1

…I totally rocked by HBAC with my cesarean baby by my side and then about an hour later, my new love began having breathing issues. He has meconium aspiration syndrome and we have been admitted to the nicu. We are likely to be here for a week or more so he can fully recover…

I will share the birth story once we’re home again. It was so amazing and empowering!

Really? REALLY??!! Ashley dares to boast that the birth was empowering when it left her baby like this:

Ashley rocks 2

What’s next, Ashley? You “rocked” your drive to the store even though you accidentally backed over your baby?

Unfortunately, Ashley is not alone in her nauseating selfishness and self-absorption.

Ashley rocks 3
Ashley rocks 4

Shannon:

Meconium has always been a hobby of mine to research, given my son’s birth … My son’s speech issues, muscle tone have always made me wonder which came first, chicken or egg … I was shocked at how many kids with sensory issues had problems with nursing or early speech but had meconium issues in common.

Melissa:

With my vbac last July my little guy also had meconium aspiration syndrom. He spent the first 8 days of his life in the nicu as well… He also had shoulder dystocia and he required full resuscitation.

Selena:

This is what happened to me in Jan. My hbac went perfect, but little man had breathing issue because of meconium, so to the NICU we went for 5 days…

Amanda:

I had my second HBA2C in birth pool on March 24. He aspirated fluid when he was born and we spent his first 4 weeks in the NICU…

And let’s not forget the midwife boasting about how she handled the birth:

Ashley rocks 5

A hypoxic event in utero, Charlie Rae? Ya think? How is it that you had no idea of the hypoxic event until after he was born? It was your responsibility to prevent it.

What is wrong with these women? Who thinks that a baby so sick that he needs to spend days or weeks in the NICU is a reasonable price to pay for a vaginal birth? Only a selfish, self-absorbed narcissist who looks at the world through her vagina, that’s who.

  • The Vitaphone Queen

    Cesarean baby? CESAREAN BABY? Really, Ashley?

    As a CBAC baby, I can tell you that I pity that kid. And their little brother.

  • yugaya

    Dr Tuteur you should write an update on this “awesome” midwife since her own “homebirth is safe because I say so” crapomercial is making rounds.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      I’m confused. How can she be saying that she can not care for high risk patients, but yet is touting her HBACs on her website?

      • yugaya

        According to her own statistics 20 of those 66 births were HBACs.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          Sounds low risk to me!!

          • yugaya

            Her latest “low risk” client:”We had the sweet honor of watching a mama own her VBAC of her Rainbow baby at home last night. We have been with this family through a planned cesarean for placenta previa, losses, and now this special triumph of welcoming their sweet son. ” – HBAC + history of losses+ history of placenta previa. That, according to the Florida homebirth risking out criteria, was only legal if someone with full hospital OB privileges reached a “joint determination that the patient can be expected to have a normal pregnancy, labor and delivery”. A consult is required if risk factors reach 3 points, in that status update from her fb page there’s 7.

          • LibrarianSarah

            What the hell is a “rainbow baby?”

          • yugaya

            Baby born after loss.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Ah I see. I thought it was something about the baby itself. Like an indigo child but for babies.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Do homebirth midwives have no fucking concept of patient privacy????

          • yugaya

            No they don’t. I’ve talked to a few of them who cannot even begin to grasp the concept of professional boundaries or the ethical conduct in position of authority.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      The neonatal death rate for low risk homebirth is less 0,4/1000. The only way she can make homebirth look good is to use the infant mortality (death up until one year of age) and include premature babies and high risk situations. Not to mention that 66 births is miniscule. I did more births than that in my first 3 weeks of residency.

  • Amazed

    Hereby, I announce the start of the SOB competition. Dear newcomers, do tell us what risks each of you took with your baby. HBA7C? A month postdates? A footling breech of triplets? A C-section for twins at home with the midwives you pay to pretend that they love you? Do not forget to include the results. Baby that needed a ling resuscitation? Six months of NICU? Long-term physical injuries? Since those are the thing your party seems to rever as badges of honour.

    Come on, let the bragging contest begin. You know you wannna brag about having rocked your births!

  • Problem solver

    Ahh I see the problem here you studied ages ago and need to brush up on the evidence they have on vbacs 😉 your welcome for informing you of this problem

    • Elisa

      Last time she was in a or women couldn’t even vote

  • Shir

    You are a psycho creepy stalker. How dare you post another moms birth story AND photos of her child without permission?
    You should be ashamed of yourself. Take this post down.

    • Amy

      Yeah! How dare she REpost something that was shared on the INTERNET! The internet is supposed to be private!

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    Don’t waste your time, parachuters. I couldn’t care less what you think. The fact that you think the problem is me telling her story, when the real problem is a baby seriously injured by his mother’s desire to “rock” her birth tells me that you are just as selfish and narcissistic as she is.

    I’m not “making fun” of her; I am condemning her for such immature self absorption.

  • Amanda

    Wow… You took posts in a private group and ridiculed them… Why? Because you disagree with home births? Or because you disagree with vbac? Either way, it’s pathetic.

    You stole images of her baby. You stole her story. And just so you could make fun of her and call her a bad mom?

    To bad that makes you kind of suck as a human. Learn some compassion.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Compassion? How compassionate is to let your baby end up in the NICU because your “birth experience” was more important than the baby’s health?

      • Concerned Mother

        So if a Mother’s baby ended up in the NICU after you delivered was that because the mother was selfish? I would assume not but because this baby was delivered in a non hospital environment that is why she is selfish. I would hope you had better things to do then troll websites and social media to come up with half facts to criticize a Mother that was not your patient. I would hope your Harvard education would have taught you better manners and ethics.

  • Amber

    Wouldn’t trust**

  • Amber

    You are a pos for posting this! Have some respect! I think I’d try to sue your ass for posting pics of my child without my permission. You are a total quack of a doctor! I would trust you to put a band-aid on me. This can happen with any delivery, even a c/s. You’re an idiot!

    • Sarah

      What do you think you’d sue her for?

      • Amy

        Having a Facebook account, undoubtedly. You’re only allowed to have one if you support the “brave mamas” who want 100% support for all their natural-at-all-costs choices.

    • Suzanne Kelley

      This woman referenced posted her information and pictures on a SOCIAL MEDIA SITE. Any expectation of privacy was waived when she did that. Get a clue!!

  • Elisa

    And the children and mothers dead because of placenta accreta caused by the previous c sections? Or the children cut with the blade during a c section? Or the mothers dead because of post c section hemorrhage? I guess they don’t count. But I assure you doctor that for the children left without a mother because of a c section these women count.

    • Nick Sanders

      What statistics do you have for the frequency of such events? Because Dr. Tuteur has plenty on the increase in deaths caused by homebirths.

      • Elisa

        I never talked about homebirth. But unfortunately some women have to choose homebirth to avoid a section. Many insurances don’t pay for vbac. Many women don’t have hospitals in their area that do vbac and they have to choose between a homebirth and a section.

        • Nick Sanders

          Not directly, but you framed your statements around the implication that a c-section was worse than a home birth, given the context of the discussion.

        • Who?

          Insurance companies are really good at assessing risk. Doing that well is how they stay in business, and refusing to insure a particular class of risk ie VBAC should be a stern warning about just how unsafe it is, all else being equal, compared to a repeat CS.

        • Box of Salt

          Nice dodge, Elisa. Nick asked you for the numbers on “placenta accreta caused by the previous c sections,” “children cut
          with the blade during a c section” and ” mothers dead because of post c
          section hemorrhage,” not homebirths.

          Did I miss your post on those stats?

        • Sarah

          Who are these women? As I understand it, in the US you can turn up in labour and whoever’s on duty will have to attend to you.

          • Who?

            I think that’s right, and you could turn up to Emergency and adamantly refuse a section, if you wanted.

            History tells us the really militant ones will hold out until their baby dies then take whatever treatment they need for themselves.

            I’m sure there’s a word for that, but I don’t know what it is.

    • Azuran

      Oh no, c-section cause an increased risk of placenta accreta for future pregnancy? Better not do a c-section and let that baby die so we avoid that hypothetical future risk to the next baby.

      • Elisa

        Mothers die DURING sections, not in future pregnancies. But of course you are ignoring that since you can’t prove the contrary

        • Nick Sanders

          They also die during arrested labor, breech birth, obstructed labor, or uterine rupture, and that’s without even going into all the complications that can kill the baby.

          • Elisa

            So a woman doesn’t have the right to choose which risks she wants to take? And by the way men and husbands are part of a decision in a homebirth, but I’ve never read about anyone in this site blaming the dads. I guess you all believe these selfish and crazy women have the power to coherence their poor men

          • Who?

            Absolutely she does, and when life and death is involved, she also has a responsibility to learn all she can about those risks. The challenge is women who learn only from homebirth midwives who would lose business if the risks of the activities they promote were recognised and understood.

            If a woman decides, based on all the information, that she wants to risk her unborn child’s or her own life or health, and the knock-on effects of that on her husband, any existing children, and extended family, in pursuit of an ‘experience’ then by all means, have at it.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            Of course she has!!!! But she should have the true information. I did, I knew my chances of dying were pretty high during a CS , that a vaginal birth ASAP was by far the best option for me. And I chose a CS as it was the best option for my baby. I had a great team of people looking after me and emerged out of surgery unscathed, and my baby did too. Other women in my situation might want to get another route. I did have to sign an informed consent form that said I might have died. Do women at homebirth sign an informed consent saying the baby has a 400% higher chance of dying?

          • Nick Sanders

            The right to choose which risks you take does not include the right to lie to others about what the risks are.

          • Who?

            I don’t know that ‘lying’ is quite the word when talking to the mothers involved.

            I’m sure most sincerely believe they are making the safest and best choice-some because they don’t have access to all the information, some because they filter out the information they don’t like, some because they ‘know’ what’s best and ignore anything that doesn’t fit that picture.

            The midwives involved, however are either liars or inexcusably ignorant-deliberately or not-about what they are doing. They have all the culpability. Lucky for them they have no one to answer to, except their non-existent or badly flawed conscience, no insurance, and likely no assets worth pursuing. And if they do get caught out, they can up sticks, adjust their name and move on to a new group of potential victims.

          • SporkParade

            Unless something profoundly messed up is going wrong in the relationship, the father may have a say in the birth location, but it’s the mothers’ final decision.

        • Azuran

          I’m not ignoring it. And those death do count. Medicine is always changing to make surgery safer every day.
          But fighting to lower the c-section rate for the sake of lowering a number is not helping anyone. That number is that high because based on our current medical knowledge, we do not yet have the tool to lower it without putting the life of babies and mothers at risk
          You want to lower the c-section rate? Then you should work on developing better baby monitoring methods during childbirth. That’s how you will help lower those rates.
          Right now, C-sections are offered based of the best information medicine has. If a c-section is recommended, it’s not because of money or because of a golf game, it’s because, based on the currently available medical knowledge, it is the safest course of action in your situation.
          Can it still go well for you even if you refuse it? Sure, but the fact that it went well doesn’t mean it was safer nor does it mean a c-section would have been ‘unnecessary’ It was medically recommended based on the best evidence available at the time.

        • Montserrat Blanco

          Well… Not that much… The issue is a baby in a homebirth has 4 times higher chances of dying than it has during a hospital birth. A mother might die during a CS as during any other surgery or childbirth. The risk factors for the mother dying during a CS are pretty similar to those during other surgeries and depend more of her previous health conditions. And, by the way, the risks for the mother life at homebirth are higher than during a CS. Maternal mortality due to death in the USA is about 18 per 100000 births. Perinatal mortality in the USA is about 6-7 in 1000 births. The baby has a 100 higher chance of dying than the mother.

  • Jaimie Mills

    Wow. You are a piece of work lady. I hope you get your pants sued off for posting screen shots of a private conversation in a Facebook support group, as well as pictures of her child. Also, if you are even a real doctor, I hope you lose every patient you have and are boycotted for the rest of your life, you piece of trash excuse for a woman and shit excuse for a caregiver.

    • Sarah

      What do you think she’s going to get sued for?

  • Rhiannon Hardesty

    Maybe instead of being so condescending and outright rude to this mom. You step up and make changes within the maternity care system that supports moms wanting to VBAC instead of the obstetric community putting road blocks in front of mom’s despite ACOG guidelines.

  • Alyssa

    You have no right NOR permission to share this story ESPECIALLY with a picture of someone’s child! Charlie is an AMAZING midwife. The most loving and caring person I know! Not to mention, EDUCATED. You need to delete this blog immediately!

  • Amanda

    Ummm…Meconium aspiration syndrome can happen in any delivery vaginal or CS (even elective without labor). I don’t think you can even begin to connect the 2 events. And as far as suctioning, I believe even NRP recommendations are possibly changing to not doing endotracheal suctioning.

    • Nick Sanders

      What are the comparative likelihoods?

  • Samantha Luckabaugh

    What a pos u are! This is a woman’s birth experence. How dare u! Your one nasty mfer. These women are warriors who had home births and rocked them! Any baby can asperate their first poop in urtero! Fuck u dude. I wish I had the balls to do a home birth after csection! As amom with ptsd from my c.s Im fighting for a vbac with little interventions. I’m terrified of hospitals like physically sick thinking about it. I still have nightmares and flash backs. Who the fuck do u think ur.

    • Nick Sanders

      These women are warriors

      Bullshit.

      Any baby can asperate their first poop in urtero!

      Yeah, but it’s way more likely to happen during a difficult birth, and can really only be treated in a hospital.

      As amom with ptsd from my c.s

      Why?

    • Who?

      I’m sorry you went through that, it must have been terrible. Was your baby okay?

      There are many posters here who like you are terrified of hospital and medical attention. But they are more terrified of putting their much-wanted unborn child at risk, so they find ways to do the best they can for the baby by choosing to birth in hospital, which is the safest place, with only one fourth of the baby death rate compared to homebirth.

      It’s a question of what you truly fear most-another medical experience, or the death of a child.

      You should make whatever choice works for you. Raging at Dr T doesn’t make her wrong, doesn’t improve the safety of homebirth, and doesn’t help your unborn child.

  • Mavis Gewant

    shame on you for stealing this out of a private fb group…

  • Disgusted

    What a nasty TROLL you are, sharing people’s photos without permission?!
    Merconium would be present no matter where she birthed. You have major issues.

    • Nick Sanders

      Do you know what “aspiration” means in this context?

      • Elisa

        So it is the mother’s fault that the midwife didn’t do what she was supposed to do? Try telling it to the judge when they sue you for malpractice

        • Nick Sanders

          I have no idea how you got that from what I asked, but I’m certainly not defending the midwife here.

          • Elisa

            No you are saying that it’s the mother’s fault. And I can’t understand why. Some women have to choose between horrible hospitals and homebirth. Some women have no insurance. I have no idea why that mom made that choice but I can’t think that you or doctor Amy care about that child more than her mother. When you stop blaming the mothers and start asking them WHY they choose homebirth maybe you’ll understand. I personally chose to labor at home because I had a very bad experience with my first son and doctors caused him brain problems we are still dealing with since they tried to force him out of my vagina. The second one was delivered from a midwife and has no problems. A good midwife is better than a crappy hospital. Unfortunately that woman had a crappy midwife

          • Who?

            It’s actually the midwives who blame the mothers when things don’t go well. They ‘didn’t trust birth’ or ‘didn’t communicate’ or ‘were sending mixed messages’. It is a rare thing for a homebirth midwife to admit fault.

            I’m sorry your child was injured, and that he continues to suffer. At least in a hospital environment lessons would have been learnt, and you may have even been able to get some financial help with the expenses you are put to. When a child is injured at homebirth, there is no followup, no insurance, and no acknowledgement of the midwife’s error.

          • Nick Sanders

            A good midwife is better than a crappy hospital.

            Evidence please.

          • yugaya

            I suggest they all bitch it out among themselves whether Charlie is an awesome or a crappy midwife. I’ll go with deadly quack because she clearly did not risk out that birth when she should have or transfered care of newborn immediately.

          • Box of Salt

            Elisa “Unfortunately that woman had a crappy midwife”

            Could you fill the rest of us in on how to tell which midwives are “good” and which are “crappy”?

          • swbarnes2

            Horrible hospitals are rarely so bad that they end up with dead babies. (Places like Morecombe Bay are the exceptions that prove the rule, because they are run by midwives who thought and acted like homebirth midwives) Homebirth situations have a far higher mortality rate.

            Midwives don’t keep stats on how many of their charges end up with brain damage. Given their mortality rate, they are probably higher than in the hospital. If a mistake was made at a hospital, you can sue for money to cover the cost of care, homebirthing midwives almost never have insurance.

            That woman had a midwife who was exactly as credentialed and experienced and educated as homebirthing midwives are allowed to be in the US. Picking a homebirthing midwife is like playing Russian roulette. Maybe you get one who recognizes trouble and is transfers you, maybe you get one who stands on your lawn and screams at you as you drive to the hospital, or who didn’t bother to refill her O2 tanks before your labor.

    • Fallow

      My baby was born in a hospital with mecomium below the cords, and she did not suffer the tiniest bit for it. Because of medical science. Whoops. Sure, she could have aspirated it anywhere – but where was she likely going to survive it without a single complication? Not at home, you moron.

  • mjjrc

    As a mom trying to decide whether to attempt a vbac (in hospital with vbac experienced OB), I am curious after reading this and other birth stories, especially homebirth stories, how are the warning signs missed? In the hospital, what would be done differently if meconium stained fluid was discovered? From what I’ve read, this is not an immediate cause for c/s.
    Is it the more sporadic monitoring in homebirth that lead to missed hypoxic events which would be caught thanks to the constant monitoring in hospital?

    I am genuinely just looking to do what is best for my baby. I do prefer for him to be prepared for life by experiencing labor. For me, choosing vbac would be about my baby, not myself. If it were for me, I’d choose a rcs

    • Azuran

      You are right that sporadic monitoring can lead to missed hypoxic events. although I don’t think Meconium stained fluid alone is enough to warrant an immediate emergency C-section, it would result in more close monitoring and depending on where you are in the labour and how it is progressing, it could least to a faster c-section than if the fluid was clear.

      Honestly, I don’t think there is any difference in health and development between an elective c-section and an uncomplicated vaginal delivery. Although the risk is small, you did have a previous c-section so you have an increased risk of uterine rupture, those can be deadly both for you and the baby or prevent you from having any future children.

      If you do try a Vbac, do try it in a hospital.
      I’d talk about my doctor about the risk and benefits of both VBAC and RCS and discuss both options, if they feel that you are not a good VBAC candidate, I’d listen to them.
      Also, don’t sell your own needs and fear short, rcs are usually recommended because they are safer than Vbac. You have nothing to prove to anyone. If you don’t want a VBAC, that is perfectly alright and doesn’t make you less of a mother.
      What really matters is that both you and the bay are healthy, not how it came into the world.

    • Medwife

      If we see meconium in the fluid, we have a NICU team present at the birth (which is usually vaginal) to do immediate deep suction if needed.

    • Daleth

      There is a woman in one of my Facebook groups whose baby died in an HBAC. I also read a woman’s story online where she talked about being rushed to the hospital in an ambulance after her womb started rupturing during her VBAC, and feeling her baby inside her struggling desperately to get oxygen, just like a drowning or suffocating person would struggle. He didn’t make it and obviously it was and will always be the worst moment of her life. If I find that link I will post it for you.

      Since what you care most about is your baby, the right place to be is the hospital. The biggest risk (biggest in terms of how dangerous it is to the baby) of VBAC is uterine rupture, and if you’re birthing at home, it doesn’t matter if the midwives “pick up signs” that the uterus is rupturing–it will be too late, because you can’t possibly get from being in labor in your house to the operating room at the hospital, anesthesized and through a c-section fast enough to save your baby.

      18 minutes is, on average, how long you have before the baby experiences significant hypoxia (oxygen deprivation), and 30 minutes before it is permanently severely handicapped:
      http://www.skepticalob.com/2012/03/uterine-rupture-how-much-time-do-you.html

      And that’s 18-30 minutes from the moment of realizing rupture is happening to the moment of pulling the baby out of your belly. A whole lot has to happen in the meantime in order for the emergency c-section to happen in time. In a hospital it can happen, not least because they notice the signs immediately thanks to electronic fetal monitoring, whereas home midwives don’t use that. At home, if uterine rupture happens… there’s just not time to save the baby.

  • somethingobscure

    Her son is in the NICU and her complaint is the couches are too hard?!

  • Peggy Thatcher

    There should be a study that interviews the children of these “mothers” when they reach adulthood.

  • A

    I love the mother who says it was magical breastmilk that made her child recover.

  • Sue

    These stories must make NICU docs and nurses absolutely BRISTLE. All that work to keep a tiny, vulnerable baby alive due to such preventable harm. Without the NICU rescue, what would these families do?

  • Brix

    Soooo…if they rocked it then what is the purpose of giving birth? Since it’s clearly not delivering a healthy baby, safely.

    • dbistola

      The crux of the matter here.

  • sdsures

    Horrid! Unbelievable. Criminal.

  • Francesca Violi

    “i know how hard the struggle is especially when the plan to just stay home and enjoy baby goes out the window” yeah, actually that’s the really hard bit to bear! Who cares about the baby lying there, sick, unable to breath properly, plugged to oxygen, electrodes and IV…

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      That sick baby is REALLY screwing up her great plans to lounge around the house and just bask in the greatness that is having a child. With the baby in the NICU, she doesn’t get to do that now. That really sucks.

  • Hannah
    • Anj Fabian

      She’s also refusing to testify.

      Which may be why she won’t contest the charges.

  • Realitybites100

    Notice the part mentioned first is the perfect birth. Oh way by the way baby has issues. Sucks to be in hospital but people bring me things so I guess that’s ok.
    That whole thing was me me me, wish I was home, can’t wait to tell my birth story. SPOILER ALERT I am gonna make myself a hero for birthing arm first!

  • Camilla Cracchiolo, RN

    What the hell is wrong with suctioning a baby?! It’s notperfect enough? It’s just a little blue bulb syringe!

    • Medwife

      I think they mean deep suction; at home it would have to be deLee I guess, not having wall suction. And what’s wrong with deep suction when you have a nonvigorous mec baby? NOTHING!

  • *I* rocked *MY* birth. Best/worst day of *MY* life. Not what *I* planned.

    etc. etc.

    • Bugsy

      Stanley is awesome. 🙂

    • Sue

      Mother “rocked” “her” birth – too bad the baby “stuffed up” theirs.

    • A

      I feel so weird about women saying it’s *their* birth. It was your birth when you were born, when you give birth it’s your child’s birth. Then again, I’m looking at it wrong. It’s obviously not about the person being born, it’s about brave warrior mamas.

      • Yes!

        Birth is a scary, wild, powerful thing for the mother but for the baby, it’s their entrance into the world after being built from a mere cluster of cells less than a year ago. Birth should be called “Mom’s Bodily Function” and “Baby’s Excellent Adventure”.

  • MaineJen

    How very uncomfortable for her to be on a hard little couch like that.

    • Bombshellrisa

      With internet access and a cheering section. Nice to know how important her own comfort is. I really don’t think it’s all that comfy for her poor baby to have to be in NICU.
      On a nice note: the hospital where I had my son had a really nice new NICU, with comfy sleeper couches and private bathrooms with showers for the parents. There was also all sorts of comforts for the parents, although none of the women I know who have had a NICU baby went on about those nice rooms. They were too focused on their babies I guess.

    • Elizabeth A

      I seriously applaud NICUs that have made the step to accommodate parents in the unit. I wish that more would.

      My
      daughter was in the NICU for 32 days. I was in the post-partum unit
      downstairs for four. The NICU (at a highly regarded, major medical
      center) had very few accommodations for parents. There weren’t even
      enough chairs on the unit for more than about a third of the babies to
      have places for visiting parents to sit.

      I would love to say
      that I didn’t care because I was so focused on my baby, but in fact, the
      absence of basic equipment (like chairs and breast pumps) was a major
      problem. I was recovering from blood loss and surgery, and every time I
      came to the NICU, I had to start by hunting up a chair and shoving it
      to DD’s bedside. Sometimes there wasn’t one, and I just stood around,
      waiting for some other mom to have to go to work. My own healing
      process meant that I sometimes got very tired, very fast. If there had
      been a couch, I would have spent far more time in the NICU than I
      managed.

      My takeaway from this woman’s complaints is that woman who have recently given birth are often in need
      of care, and that it’s a pity there is no part of the hospital that can
      provide that for this mom, as she is officially not a patient. Even if
      she were a patient, however, NICU visiting is a physical and logistical
      strain, and much could be done to improve the situation.

      If I ever get rich, I am starting a charity to donate one recliner chair per patient bed to every NICU in the world.

      • Who?

        I’m sorry you both went through that, and hope both you and your daughter are fully recovered.

        Given the amount of care the woman in this story refused, it is a bit hard to hear her complaining about a lack of comfort and care when the initial crisis has passed, and her baby is so seriously unwell as a result, but I take your point.

        Let’s hope NICUs hear stories from people like you and can make parents as comfortable as possible at what must be a terrible time.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          Indeed! I used to read a blog by a woman who lost her daughter to Trisomy 18, IIRC, after a few days in the NICU. She ended up donating a couple of recliners to that NICU in honor of her daughter and the wonderful, compassionate treatment she had from the doctors and nurses there. I thought that was a beautiful idea.

      • Sarah

        That’s awful. I was sufficiently unwell and doped post EMCS to nearly drop my baby when visiting her in special care, and on another occasion I thought I was going to pass out when the room started spinning. That was on a proper chair. With no chair, I literally wouldn’t have been able to go and see her.

      • Jessica

        That is awful. My nephew spent 11 days in the NICU following his birth last year (persistent pulmonary hypertension), and I was pretty impressed with the NICU and its staff. All patient rooms in the NICU are private, and each room has a rocking chair, a stool or two, a breast pump, and a fridge for storing milk. It was still a scary experience, but I was impressed at the attention given to the parents of a NICU patient. You are right – parents really do deserve something as basic as a place to sit comfortably next to their baby.

    • sdsures

      Maybe she’d feel better if she inhaled some meconium, too.

    • sdsures

      I do believe I am about to vomit.

  • Bombshellrisa

    This woman needs to watch “Losing Layla”. It’s a documentary about losing your baby and the grieving process. I watched it with one of my loss mom friends (nothing to do with home birth). Long story short, baby girl aspirated meconium and despite NICU care, died. There is a scene where the mother is crying so hard and she gasps between sobs that it’s hurting her c-section incision to cry. That, Ashley, is a hard recovery. Get over yourself and concentrate on your baby.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    OT: Nice to see ImprovingBirth.org changing its strategy in response to criticism from a lawyer and from me. They’re dropping sexual assault claim and planning to pay a lawyer.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=877702748969881&id=255657527841076

    • Bombshellrisa

      Well, we all have the screen shots of the “update” where they filed her complaint with a sexual assault officer. So glad they are not taking that route.

      • lawyer jane

        I just looked at the Human Rights in Childbirth facebook page and the Daily Dot article about the case. It’s all very strange – I just can’t believe that an advocacy organization or a malpractice lawyer would not take this case, unless Kelly did not connect to the right people, or unless there’s something else big that has not been disclosed. Also this would be a punitive damages case alleging intentional battery by the doctor – and there is no cap on those damages in California. With that video (and the seemingly universal reaction of medical professionals shocked by it) I have an extremely hard time believing that there is NO lawyer in California willing to take this on contingency!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Apparently, they missed the statute of limitation for medical malpractice. It may have passed before Kelly approached them.

          • yugaya

            Are there similar time limitations for criminal charges like for assault and battery? Could the opportunists over on improvingbirth have done her a disservice by persuading her to go ahead with that stunt of filing a sexual assault complaint?

        • Bombshellrisa

          Did you see the comments by “TNG” on the previous thread? Birth Rights Bar Association is a group of lawyers who have an interest in connecting with other lawyers who want to champion the cause of birth rights. They don’t advocate at a consumer level, just go on amongst themselves and write opinions and network. You would think that a group of lawyers could figure out how to find a lawyer for “Kelly”.

        • Cobalt

          They were deleting offers of help from lawyers. IB has been deliberately mishandling the case.

        • Kq

          OT: the Daily Dot is absolute crap. I was interviewed as part of a story they did about my abuser. They managed to write, as one critic called it, a “swoony puff piece” that cast my abuser as something of a mysterious “Christian Grey” character. They failed to use the testimony of three victims who had previously never spoken publicly. And their reporter, Aja Romano, was shockingly rude and unprofessional – something the editor admitted -but they covered her ass along with their own. I’ve dealt with a number of publications, but I’ve never seen such unprofessional, amateur behavior to match The Daily Dot.

    • lawyer jane

      Well, that’s good, but are they still making her go pro bono? That is the weird part. They seem like amateurs at best, and if they really wanted to make change they would have found her competent personal injury lawyers.

    • Liz Leyden

      Don’t they have their own lawyers?

      • Bombshellrisa

        “Improving Birth’s mission is to bring evidence-based care and humanity to childbirth. With a network of thousands of consumer activists in over 150 cities across the country, they mobilize annually on Labor Day to raise awareness about these critical issues, in the Rally to Improve Birth. IB helped spur the Birth Rights Bar Association into being, pushed by the urgent need from consumers all over the U.S. in desperate need of legal answers and resources. They work hand in hand with the BRBA, providing information, support, and on-the-ground resources to consumers about their rights in childbirth”
        So Birth Rights Bar Association came into being because consumers needed resources, yet they don’t do advocacy at the consumer level. But that means there ARE lawyers who are passionate about birth rights, but don’t choose to take this case

  • laur

    Hard couch? Her own room is a blessing! When my babe was born with a diaphragmatic hernia and flown hours away to a NICU, I certainly was not provided a room to recover in. More importantly, my thoughts were not on ME, but my baby! Strange.

  • Cyndi

    “Meconium has always been a hobby of mine to research, given my son’s birth … My son’s speech issues, muscle tone have always made me wonder which came first, chicken or egg … I was shocked at how many kids with sensory issues had problems with nursing or early speech but had meconium issues in common.” And as a former OB RN mec aspiration was always a danger sign to me. But then I didn’t learn this via “research” on Google, but from 9 years in basic through advanced practice nursing school. You can all discount that, though, you know, because of Big Education.

    • Amy

      Ironically enough, there IS a “big education” movement. But it’s Big Ed that’s pushing online self-study in lieu of real, facetime, learning. (Things like the Gates Foundation offering “classes” in community colleges that are just computer terminals where kids work through problems on their own, SO much cheaper than paying a professor, and k12.com, and scripted curricula pushed at the k-12 level.)

      • Melissa

        It’s OT, for sure, but I actually benefited very much from math classes in this type of self-directed computer environment. I moved at my own pace and if I couldn’t figure out something on my own the teacher was there to help me one-on-one. I had hated math forever until I was in this atmosphere.

        Sure, it might not work will all classes. Especially those that tend towards more discussion based classroom activities (literature for example) but they can be very helpful in some classes.

        • lawyer jane

          There’s good evidence that a “flipped” classroom (where you have lectures/practice online, with the teacher available for one-on-one help) produces results. But this is far different from what Big Ed wants, which is to “disrupt” the whole teaching profession through online education that can be monetized by private companies and free of bothersome teacher’s unions …

          • Amy

            And classroom flipping can ONLY work when the students buy into the process. Which is usually the case in post-secondary settings, because you’re talking about students who are choosing to be there for the most part. But in k-12 settings, very often the students having the most difficulty are also among the least motivated, and it’s difficult to enforce a homework assignment of “watch this video” if the student has no interest in learning the material.

  • Amy

    And it begs the question, was it worth it? You get home birth bragging rights, but you and your child are spending MORE time in the hospital, with MORE interventions, than a baby born by cesarean with no complications.

    • Amy M

      Yeah, what does that do for their “the hospital interventions cause complications” story? This lady recognized there were complications at least (or maybe the midwife did), and then went to the hospital. Does the hospital only cause complications during the actual birth, but once baby is out, any interventions done are lifesaving?

    • yugaya

      The sick and twisted logic that they use to justify how even a homebirth with dire consequences is always better than a c-section is this: c-section babies are born “the wrong way”, not how “nature intended”, they missed out on crucial “birthing experience” and were “not welcomed into this world but were ripped from their mother’s abdomen”. Add to that the pseudoscience surrounding microbiome and how ruining virgin gut causes everything from autism to obesity, and you get mothers who are desperate to give birth via their vaginas not only because they are selfish narcissist, but because they have been force fed the implied natural childbirth dogma that anything less than perfectly natural birth will ruin your child for life.

    • Bugsy

      Who cares? She has the bragging rights. That’s sadly what matters in the all-natural mama circle.

      • Amy

        But it does completely obliterate their argument that home birth allows for better bonding and a more comfortable setting.

    • Sarah

      It’s like how if you have a bit of augmentation in timely fashion when labour stalls, you’ll probably end up with a quicker and less dramatic birth overall than if you leave it later.

    • Mariana.

      I was wondering the same thing…

  • Liz Leyden

    The birth was perfect, but the aftermath was a disaster. It’s kind of
    like saying the surgery was a success, but the patient died on the
    table.

    • An Actual Attorney

      Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

  • Daleth

    Holy shit. Excuse me, but!!!! These women are insane!

    • SG1

      Daleth, we have to be more caring, supportive and understanding.
      They are just people making different choices to us.

      • Who?

        No, we don’t.

        Yes they are people. Yes, they are making choices.

        We can acknowledge the right of others to make choices without supporting or understanding those choices, or the people either. As for caring, I’ll save my emotional energy for the baby.

        If people making cholces I disagree with choose to broadcast them online, it is appropriate to express disagreement. I do the same socially. If they are pushing dangerous and misguded ideologies-and make no mistake, the hombirth movement is an ideology-it is appropriate to challenge that ideology.

        I wouldn’t call it insane-to me that is a get out of jail card-I’d call it selfish and narcissistic.

        • SG1

          I am surprised no one picked up on my sarcasm as I believe they are all deluded, dangerous f***ing idiots.
          I have no time or tolerance for their crap at all.

          • Who?

            You might need a snark sign, sarcasm is hard to effectively convey on the internet.

      • Why should we be supportive of choices that risk people’s lives, exactly? They have every right to make bad choices, and we have every right to point out that those are bad choices.

        • Who?

          It’s the rights argument gone feral.

          • Except it only seems to ever go one way. The crunchy mamas can criticize and even bully to their hearts’ content, but let one of us so much as dare to raise an objection, and all of a sudden it’s “we have to be more caring, supportive and understanding. They are just people making different choices to us”.

            Maybe, just maybe, one should at least try to be consistent on this sort of thing? I think it’s far worse and far more insidious than just the rights argument gone feral.

          • Who?

            Oh I think you’re right. They are an ideology that tolerates no dissent. I’m happy to disagree with the feral rights argument-I have done so this morning already.

            There is no reasoning with someone wedded to the rights argument-the same mentality that warns we can pry the guns out of their cold dead hands is at play in the homebirth movement. The best result is to provide an alternative way of thinking, on the off chance a fence sitter is passing by.

            The other way to tackle the feral rights groups is to talk about responsibility, a subject on which they are deeply sketchy. We had the gun nut on here saying that when a 7 year old shot a 6 month old at grandad’s house with grandad’s gun, it was either an accident or everyone’s responsibility but grandad’s. Talking about responsibility tops up the fear and loathing they live with every day. No way of changing their minds but getting them to argue that mum, the 7 year old or the neighbour’s dog should be punished while grandad gets off scot free is a great advertisement for another (really any other) way of thinking.

          • Realitybites100

            They always talk out out of both sides. I was reading a woman who was sad becusse she had a horrid doula and a tramautic home birth transfer. The support received was “doulas don’t birth for you, only you are in charge of your birth experience.” Kind of flies in the face of the whole birth rape scenario where Women are told not to go to hospital where mean old doctors will ignore their needs and violate them. Which is it? You are in control or your not?

          • dannicalliope

            I had a mid-wife assisted hospital birth with a wonderful doula. That’s about as “natural” as I want to go though. I liked being in an actual hospital and knowing that if anything went wrong, we were in the right place. I trusted the midwives would turn me over to an OB if there was a problem (and they would have). My doula was there for pain management, and she did a good job. At one point, the midwives started talking about a possible c-section as I was having a longer than average labor, and I was okay with that too. I actually wound up having her as they were prepping me for an epidural, but the point is… I had an idea of how I wanted to have my baby but I sure as heck would have thrown it ALL out of the window if I would have had to.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        And the parents of Robbie Wayne just made “different choices” from us. But I will not be caring, supportive or understanding. They were monsters.

        (I won’t even link to it, because it is so completely horrible to read, but if you want nightmares and trauma, look up Linda Goodman’s report, “The Murder of Robbie Wayne, Age 6”; as a parent of a 6 yo, I can’t even start to think about it)

      • Alex

        Except that their own choices are not only affecting themselves. It’s also affecting the baby.
        Being supportive of their choice is basically the same as supporting someone who chose to smoke or drink during pregnancy.

  • jhr

    Given the discussion of the link between traumatic VBACs and developmental issues for babies, is there any researcher on this board who could envision a study targeting this issue? There is a Bureau of Maternal and Child Health in DHHS: http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/about/.
    This would be an excellent project–if nothing of this sort is already being done.

  • Dr Kitty

    Do you know what would be super awesome?
    A longitudinal study of ERCS, VBAC and HBAC babies up until…oh, let’s say age of twelve. Compare outcomes with the sibling born by CS.

    Main outcomes: diagnosis of dyspraxia, apraxia, dyslexia, ASD, developmental delay (global or specific), cerebral palsy, sensory impairment and an IQ.

    Yup… I’d sure like to see those long term outcomes.

    I’m going to bet that on average you’ll lose more IQ points from hypoxia at an HBAC with inadequate monitoring than you’ll gain from EBF.

    • Daleth

      Someone PLEASE do this kind of study!

    • Sue

      Yes – this information is definitely needed. For every excess death, how many more newborns go on to have lifelong disability?

      Deaths are catastrophic but (thankfully) rare – because the medical system is there as a back-up. They seem so far from reality. But disability – maybe families could related more to that very real risk.

  • TsuDhoNimh

    “I had my second HBA2C in birth pool on March 24. He aspirated fluid when he was born and we spent his first 4 weeks in the NICU…”

    Well, if you insist on pretending you are Flipper and birthing with your hoo-hah under water, what do you expect will happen?

    Even seals haul out onto the beach to give birth.

    • Realitybites100

      But the cord supplies oxygen until cut! Babies live in fluid for nine months!
      I read in comments section the other day a woman pooh poohing cord strangulation becusse babies don’t breathe.
      They don’t and won’t get it. It’s too complex.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    What’s next, Ashley? You “rocked” your drive to the store even though you accidentally backed over your baby?

    I feel bad, but this made me burst out laughing.

  • Laura

    My 6th baby had a shoulder dystocia attended by an incompetent nurse and my poor, sweet husband. (Yes, sometimes hospitals screw up badly!) She appeared “fine” and was only blue for a minute or so. I had her pediatrician check her carefully for brachial plexus injuries. She seemed fine. She’s almost 7 and has a wonderful Occupational Therapist who works tirelessly with her several times a week for fine motor control issues. My daughter is amazing with a soccer ball, so only her upper body seems really compromised. Do you think I will always wonder if her challenges had anything to do with her birth complications? YES!! A thousand times over!!!

    • momofone

      My sister-in-law was born with a brachial plexus injury and a broken collarbone following a shoulder dystocia. Woo-y mom saw the fact that she was born vaginally as proof that it was supposed to be that way, and then told the pediatrician that she would consider his recommendation of OT, but wanted to try energy healing instead. She didn’t want to disturb SIL’s chakras. I’m sure the shoulder dystocia etc. weren’t disturbing at all. My eyes still roll, and it has been twenty years.

      • Laura

        Did your SIL have any observable disabilities or delays? Any problems that could be traced back to her birth injuries?

        • momofone

          Not in terms of daily functioning; she has some issues with fine motor skills, but is able to work around them. She still has some uneven strength in her arms, but works around that too (I’m not sure she notices it at all since it’s always been that way).

  • Beth

    I don’t get it, why do these women think taking these risks with their childrens lives is something to brag about? I had two very unintentional home births I wasn’t something I was proud of. In fact with my eldest I was ashamed that I didn’t know I was in labor and with my eight month old I was pissed that the hospital sent me home even though I warned the doctors that I go from zero to full blown delivery very quickly. I mean I’d been to the hospital just two hours prior to giving birth and they sent me home.

    That said I know I was lucky things didn’t go horribly wrong. I know that with the bext baby I’m scheduling a c section.

    • nomofear

      or a 39-week induction, if you usually make it to term. After what happened with my first, and family history, I was fearful of a fast labor, with the same “oh you’re only 2cm, go back home,” so I asked for and was happily given the induction. I bet you can understand how happy I was with a nice, 12+ hour pitocin labor, with time for an epidural and everything. It sounds like most OBs are great with inductions, so it’s a good option, especially if your insurance isn’t okay covering a MRCS.

      • theadequatemother

        My term induction for history of fast labour was precipitous with no time for an epi, a stunned baby that needed PPV, a minor PPH and a husband who swore never again because he found it as traumatic as I did. So i get the desire for a nice calm MRCS.

    • Bugsy

      Wow, glad the kiddos were okay.

      My hospital sent me home when I was in full-blown labor, too. 38+5, period-like bleeding, contractions every 5 minutes for 3 hours but only 3 cm dilated. They decided that because I lived an 8-min drive from the hospital, I should just go home.

      I was back an hour later, still bleeding heavily and with 5-min contractions that were causing me to nearly collapse in pain. The nurses begrudgingly checked my cervix and were floored that I was 5 cm and in full labor.

      This time around, if I think I’m in labor, I’m not leaving the hospital grounds.

      • Bombshellrisa

        Make sure you stay put! Is there a nice waiting area to park yourself in?

        • Bugsy

          I’m not sure…my son was born in Florida (where I could have just plopped down in the waiting room), and this one will be born in Vancouver. I haven’t even met my OB yet, let alone toured the maternity ward of our hospital.

          The most irritating part about leaving the hospital was that because I had TWO visits that night, I got charged two separate co-pays by insurance. We fought it, oh, we fought it. “You left the premises,” they said. “I was forced to,” I replied. “It was on two different calendar days,” they said. “Two different calendar days, yes, but the two visits were separated by a FEW hours.”

          We fought it tooth and nail but lost. I love American insurance companies.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Oh wow. That is awful!

      • Cobalt

        Mine go kinda fast, but the nurses tend to not believe I’m in labor because I don’t have a lot of pain. There’s a lot of eye rolls, “well we’ll just see”s, then “hmmm…..you’re 6 cm dilated”.

        “I know, that’s why my doctor sent me in! Now gimme the belts, I’m having this baby!”

  • Amy M

    It would almost make sense if it was the other way: a homebirth that nearly (or outright) kills the mother, but the baby is healthy. If by “rocked” you mean: gave birth to a healthy baby.

    In this case, I guess “rocked” means: pushed a baby out my vagina at home (actual state of baby–alive, dead, sick, not important).

  • yugaya

    “Meconium has always been a hobby of mine to research”

    Well, at least she got the hobby part right, but one has to wonder what kind of ideological brainwashing results in a person who will comment on a baby in NICU with first and foremost boasting about turning a deadly birth complication into a leisurely interest.

    • demodocus’ spouse

      I like to look up books on congenital blindness, but I don’t pretend to know more than DH’s opthalmologist.

      • yugaya

        I’ve looked up any and all research into PTSD in my part of the world but I’m not even remotely tempted to diagnose or offer treatment advice. And I don’t list ‘PTSD research’ under hobbies either.

        • Amy M

          One of my hobbies (on and off) is fashion history. That right there qualifies me to be a midwife and expound on all things birthy.

          • yugaya

            I’m proofreading a thesis for a friend at the moment on history of opera costumes in my country. That should be enough to make me your student midwife!

          • Cobalt

            That’s assistant midwife material. Student midwives need only be able to dress themselves.

          • momofone

            I love refinishing furniture. Which you could also think of as creating new life (for furniture)! I never thought about it before, but I’m pretty sure that means I’m a midwife too.

          • Mel

            I’ve delivered a handful of calves successfully and watched a whole bunch be born myself. I figure I can use what I’ve learned to be a midwife for humans now. I just need to order my own set of OB chains and a calf-jack…..

          • Bombshellrisa

            Didn’t Penny Simkin say she was qualified to speak about epidurals because she could read? I must be totally qualified to speak about chemicals because I read the back of a wasp spray can.

        • Kq

          I’m a cult survivor and have researched cults, cultic abuse and Munchausen by Internet quite extensively. I do consider it a hobby, but I wouldn’t call myself an expert by any stretch. I’d say I was more knowledgeable than average, but when I am asked for advice it’s always prefaced with the codicil of me not being a professional. I also always suggest professional help for people who ask about it or want help.

          • yugaya

            Excuse my language Kq, but you had someone **** with your mind over a long period of time. Your hobby is an integral part of you reclaiming your soul. Not the same thing as the mec hobbyist lady clearly self-diagnosing and/or even self-treating her child. The woman is so delusional that she can’t hide her excitement over such new research opportunities as this homebirth disaster, of course not until the mom had “had time to celebrate” this “perfect HBAC”.

          • Kq

            *blush* yeah okay, fair point… still wouldn’t say expert tho

        • KarenJJ

          I’m making an apple cake today with my 4yo. Just call me a chef and we’re all good, yeah?

      • Cobalt

        For some reason, this reminds me of the I Love Lucy episode where Ricky thinks he’s going bald and Lucy goes to some hair restoration quack and gets a bunch of really unpleasant “treatments” for him.

  • Anj Fabian

    OMG. The midwife is ALMOST connecting the dots. MAS could be caused by a hypoxic event in utero?

    Well, yes. You know what else is caused by hypoxic events?
    Brain damage.

    You know why we monitor the FHR? To avoid hypoxic events and BRAIN DAMAGE.

    She has the results sitting there in front of her and can’t quite….connect….the….dots.

    Amazing.

    • Amy M

      It looks like that other woman also started to make a connection between a birth injury and developmental delays.

    • Guest

      Hypoxia causes stress. Stress causes passage of meconium. Can’t have MAS without the presence of mec onion in the amniotic fluid. So, yes, MAS can be related to / caused by hypoxia in utero. Duh…

    • Poogles

      “You know why we monitor the FHR? To avoid hypoxic events and BRAIN DAMAGE.”

      Problem is, a lot of times when HB advocates or midwives talk about a hypoxic event “in utero” they always seem to think those only happen pre-labor, so they couldn’t have caught it anyways. This of course isn’t true, but it seems to be the common belief from what I have seen.

      “True meconium aspiration is often a prenatal/prelabour event. There are several documented cases where babies were born with MAS after elective sections. Both the meconium and the aspiration are usually related to hypoxic events in utero. The baby, if subjected to severe enough an hypoxic insult in utero, will gasp (sort of a last-ditch reflexive effort to get oxygen) and will then get the meconium down below the vocal cords.”
      http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/meconium.html

      • Mel

        The pragmatic side of me needs to point out that an awful lot of midwives have proven to be unable to catch hypoxic events during labor or after the baby is born.

        EFM was developed for a reason.

  • Ash

    ” in birth pool on March 24. He aspirated fluid when he was born…”

    But wait! I thought that was impossible because of the dive reflex! The water is warm so it’s impossible for babies to inhale water, it’s just like the uterus!

    But no, we definitely know waterbirth is safe! The fact that we don’t know the rates of how often these events occur is not important.

    We know it’s safe. We just know.

  • moto_librarian

    I just can’t with these women anymore. I remember when the CNM broke my water during my second labor and told me that there was light mec. I was concerned immediately, and asked how we would proceed. She said the NICU team would be in the room for delivery, primarily as a precaution. Everything was going fine during pushing, until suddenly, it wasn’t. I heard the nurse ask if she needed to call the OB emergency team when the midwife said, “We need to get him out now.” She told me to push in the absence of a contraction, and I did with all my might. I was so scared as I laid there, waiting to hear my son cry. I was in tears myself, even though the neonatalogist was reassuring me as they suctioned him, gave him vigorous stim, and oxygen via CPAP. He pinked up quickly and started crying, but I was scared. There are damned good reasons for transferring to a hospital when there is meconium present, but these geniuses are so obsessed with themselves and their “perfect births” that their children wind up sounding like props in their idiotic stunts.

    We’ll see how these babies fare long term. I doubt that all of them came out of this unscathed. As adults, they may hate their mothers for privileging their birth experiences over their brains.

    • KarenJJ

      I panicked with the “light mec” too. OMG my baby’s swimming around in poo! Get it out!!!!1!1!!

      With zero dilation and contractions going nowhere I dropped all pretence about being some kind of “natural mama”. My obgyn called my bluff too “I’d recommend a c-section, but you can keep trying a bit longer if you want”.. haha.. nope.. Next available slot, please…

      • FEDUP MD

        Yup, I heard that and had visions of ECMO in my head. When the OB started to say, “I think we need to do a c-section” my next words were “how soon can we get in there?”

  • Julia

    “My hbac went perfect, but little man had breathing issue because of meconium, so to the NICU we went for 5 days…”

    Say what?!? If the baby ends up in the NICU due to MAS, then, by definition, the birth did not go perfect. Is that really so difficult to understand?

    • Ash

      I don’t know what else to call it other than vaginal worship.

      • yugaya

        “”My hbac went perfect”

        No it did not, because your baby is in NICU as a result. Once you realise that, it will hurt like hell to acknowledge just how wrong towards your own child making that statement was.

        • Squillo

          You got the emphasis wrong. Her HBAC went perfect. The baby’s, not so much.

          • yugaya

            The baby should have known better because:

            – babies “know when to be born” :
            http://iinformedparenting.blogspot.hu/2010/06/babies-will-be-born-when-theyre-darn.html

            – babies “know exactly when to release the cord from its point of attachment”:
            http://www.xojane.com/healthy/how-to-lotus-birth

            – babies “can recognise that water should be swallowed and not inhaled.” during waterbirth:
            http://www.warkworthbirthcentre.co.nz/water-birth.html

            That’s NCB saying that not only should the mother “own her outcome”, but that the baby ought to do that too since the baby apparently knows how to do everything right even before being born.

          • Angharad

            That’s a lot of responsibility to put on someone who won’t learn for over a year not to eat every piece of fluff and garbage that they find on the floor.

          • dannicalliope

            I will say this in defense of water birth–the baby won’t drown in the water unless you submerge him after you’ve already removed him from the water. Because when they’re first born in a tub birth, they’re going from a fluid filled environment to another fluid filled environment. With the cord still attached, they’re getting plenty of oxygen, and they don’t drown. Also, in a tub birth–the baby is underwater for approximately the amount of time it takes them to exit the vaginal canal and be lifted up into the hands of the assisting midwife/OB. Seconds, really. I had a tub birth and the only “side effect” was that my baby wasn’t as goopy as she would have been otherwise. Thanks, water! 🙂 If I had thought for a second there was a risk of drowning on her part, I wouldn’t have done it.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            That’s completely untrue. Babies can and do drown during waterbirth.

          • yugaya

            Cord is not scuba gear ffs. Whether or not cord is still attached is irrelevant because placenta that provides the oxygen can already be not functioning properly or detaching when baby exits the birth canal. And babies HAVE drowned in waterbirth with their cords still attached:

            http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/birth-pool-baby-drowned-26421232.html

            You were lucky with your anecdote, that’s all. Acknowledge and move on.

          • dannicalliope

            The hospital has a set up for it. I wouldn’t have done it otherwise.

          • Roadstergal

            Do they have a setup because it’s safe, or because crunchy mamas will homebirth if they don’t allow it and they figure it’s the lesser of evils?

            Did they tell you the risks specific to waterbirth? Did they tell you ACOG has recommended against it outside of a clinical trial?
            http://www.acog.org/Resources-And-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Obstetric-Practice/Immersion-in-Water-During-Labor-and-Delivery
            “Given these facts and case reports of rare but serious adverse effects in the newborn, the practice of immersion in the second stage of labor (underwater delivery) should be considered an experimental procedure that only should be performed within the context of an appropriately designed clinical trial with informed consent.”

          • yugaya

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2173451.stm

            “babies who do not get enough oxygen during childbirth may gasp for air, risking allowing water to enter their lungs”

          • Azuran

            Meconium aspiration happens when a baby (usually in distress) will aspirate liquid while still in the womb. If that can happen, then, obviously, a baby can also aspirate while in the pool. Probably it won’t ‘drown’ per say, but, aspirating water (especially contaminated water) can cause severe breathing problems for a new born, including aspiration pneumonia and death.
            Good for you if your water birth went well, doesn’t mean there was no risk.

          • dannicalliope

            Well, there’s a risk in everything… but anyway, I had a hospital sanctioned water birth, so I suppose if the risks were deemed small enough. Believe me, I’m not really a crunchy mom. It was an option that was available and I took it. Again, if I had thought that my baby would be in danger, I wouldn’t have.

          • Young CC Prof

            Let’s not forget that the birthing pool is nonsterile plain water. Aspirating or even drinking it can disturb the baby’s electrolyte balance, and aspirating it can cause dangerous infections.

          • Daleth

            A few examples of the risks of waterbirth:

            “A baby died of “acute near drowning” three days after a natural water birth, an inquest heard yesterday.”
            http://homebirthdebate.blogspot.com/2008/02/baby-dies-of-freshwater-drowning-at.html

            “New Zealand doctors have described four incidents in which new born babies nearly drowned.”
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2173451.stm

            And drowning is not the only risk: “The January 2015 issue of Emerging Infectious Diseases is reporting the death of a newborn from to Legionella acquired during a water birth attended by a licensed midwife in Texas.”
            https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2014/12/12/water-birth-leads-to-newborns-death-from-legionella/

            And here’s the Skeptical OB herself on it:
            http://www.skepticalob.com/2010/05/waterbirth-fatalities.html

          • Megan

            Citation for these claims?

          • dannicalliope

            The hospital? Because that’s what they told me, and that’s why I went ahead and did it. And I do acknowledge that there are some risks, but there are risks in everything we do… the hospital’s blessing made me feel okay doing it, and I’d probably do it again.

          • Fallow

            Babies can, do, and have breathed before they were removed from the water in a water birth.

          • Ash

            dannicalliope , you may find this useful in learning about the potential risks of waterbirth during the second stage.

            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/03/18/peds.2013-3794.full.pdf+html

      • Sarah

        And not in the fun way.

    • ArmyChick

      Of course the birth went perfect… Because it is all that matters to her. The process. Not the outcome i.e a healthy baby. That way of thinking is so prevalent in the NCB community. It sickens me.

      • Realitybites100

        Did anyone find it odd she mentions her c-section child beside her? Will her kids go thru life being called c-section and birth hero?

        • Sarah

          I was thinking that. Glad my mother never went down that road, as we were all sections so it might’ve got a bit confusing all answering to C-section child.

  • Trixie

    Oh, the irony: http://tbo.com/northeast-tampa/midwife-delivers-more-than-just-babies-20150204/
    ““This area has some of the highest infant morbidity rate in the county,” [Charlie Rae Young] said.”
    I thought Florida LMs weren’t supposed to do VBACs? I wonder if her malpractice insurance carrier would be interested in this information.

    • Trixie
      • Amy M

        Wow.These people are so aggressively willfully ignorant.

    • yugaya

      If she is attending as “a doula” she ain’t got no malpractice insurance requirements to uphold. That means that the mom who just “rocked her HBAC” is the only person stuck with potentially lifelong care costs. Unless she manages to sue the NICU hospital for…something.

      • SporkParade

        Israel has very strict licensing guidelines for midwives and very strict criteria for homebirths. So, of course, the American women who aren’t low-risk enough to qualify for homebirth hire the American midwives who lack the training to work as midwives, and everyone just pretends it was an “unattended” homebirth with a “doula.” But I guess that’s okay when you have nationalized healthcare to pay for the baby’s problems.

  • Ash

    “my cesarean baby at my side”, these people are obsessed.

    How long will it take until someone names their kids” scar” and “natural” so they can always know which baby is the “best”?

    • Cobalt

      “Hi, these are my kids: Traumatic Disappointment, Golf Game, Roulette Wheel, and Rockstar Goldfish. Rocky’s the favorite, of course.”

      • Ash

        Or is it going to be Scar and Simba?

    • Amy M

      “It’s so hard to be a homebirth mom, recovering in the NICU on a hard little couch..”
      It’s hard to be a MOM [with a baby] recovering in the NICU. NICU stays are not fun or easy for anybody. Some people end up legitimately traumatized if their babies end up in the NICU, fighting for their lives, but I guess since she had a rockin’ homebirth, any sort of trauma or mental distress is off the table.

      I wonder what she’d be saying if she transferred? Maybe something like: “I am SO traumatized by my birth rape. I didn’t want a Csection and it happened anyway. If only the doctors had given me more time, I could have birthed him vaginally! Oh btw, baby is in the NICU.”
      ETA: “..and the staff is interfering with my breastfeeding attempts!”

      • moto_librarian

        If she had given birth in the hospital, she would have her own room where she could get some rest for at least 48 hours. She should see how much fun it is to visit the NICU in a wheelchair because you are too weak and sore to walk after a pph and a cervical laceration.

      • Julia

        “It’s so hard to be a homebirth mom, recovering in the NICU on a hard little couch..”
        No reflection on the fact that the NICU stay is in all likelihood harder on the baby than on her? She’s the lucky one not being in intensive care…

        • Amy M

          She also seems confident that the baby will be fine and go home in a few days. Odds are that that is true, but I guess she trusts NICU doctors more than OBs? I suppose we should be grateful that she took him to the NICU, instead insisting that skin-to-skin with mama and breastfeeding would clear him right up.

          • Medwife

            Does she realize babies do die of MAS? I wonder.

          • Mel

            That was my first thought. One of my sisters-in-law nearly died from MAS and my MIL still tears up about it nearly 30 years later.

          • Anj Fabian

            Baby is not breathing on his own. Go home in a few days? Unlikely.

            No idea where she got that idea from. Certainly not the doctors. After he jumps through the independent respiration hoop, he’ll need to jump through the feeding proficiency hoop.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            A few weeks if he is lucky, I am assuming…
            My nephew’s newest baby ended up in the NICU due to near asphyxia/shoulder dystocia ( he weighed almost 11 pounds). He was on the ventilator for a day but on an IV, feeding tube and Oxygen for a couple days. He was out in a week. But his dad is an EMT and grandma and auntie are nurses.

            I think this baby’s mom is still engaged in some magical thinking, that nothing REALLY bad or permanent could possibly happen to her baby because of her actions…

          • Theoneandonly

            Just wow. My daughter needed c-pap assistance in NICU for 6 hours following her (cesarean) birth – premature 35+6 week lungs, no mec. After she was off that she was in NICU for 4 more days until feeding/weight gain satisfied the doctors. She was the most healthy baby in there by far and she still stayed there more than a couple of days.

        • a_m_o

          Sooooo much harder for a “homebirth mom” than any other mom, right? Ugh to this chick.

      • Mel

        Gotta love the note of martyrdom about having a hard couch to recover on.

        Would she prefer not seeing her son for the first few days because she was suffering from post-partum preeclampsia? My mom still has the Polaroid pictures the nursing staff brought down from the NICU when she was too unstable to go see my sister and I.

        • Who?

          If I was going for my martyr’s badge I would have mentioned it a little earlier down in the story-building suspense is so critical to getting the best possible ‘aahh’ for your buck.

          And who cares about the baby anyway, right? A by-product of the whole fabulous process, like whey when you’re making curd cheese.

      • a_m_o

        I was one of those folks legit traumatized by having to go NICU. The NICU was great…but having a baby born during a blizzard with severe midline defects (that were undetected prenatally) and no transport team willing to come get him for hours… yep, some trauma there. This lady has no effing clue how lucky she is, hard couch or no.

        • Amy M

          Absolutely! Was your baby ok? Did you get help for your trauma? There but for the grace of God go I–my twins were born at 36wk and were healthy, but I had pre term labor episodes from 30wk on, so we were [as prepared as first time parents could be] to have our children in the NICU.

    • Realitybites100

      Wow I said the exact same thing. It jumped right out at me too.

  • Angharad

    I have an acquaintance who had a vaginal breech birth that resulted in her daughter acquiring two black eyes and a broken arm during delivery. The mother is so proud of the birth and that she was able to avoid a c-section even though she had to be transferred to the hospital. Even two years later my acquaintance is still bragging about the delivery on Facebook, and I don’t know how to process it. How could you be so callous to ANY baby, much less your own, as to celebrate an event that was a good experience for mom but left baby with bruises and a cast?

    • moto_librarian

      I would probably lose it and tell her that she’s a narcissist asshole and then cut her out of my life.

    • Poogles

      Not nearly as bad, but I used to read the blog of a woman who ended up going for an HBAC and was just so proud she pushed her son out by herself – those doctors who told her a baby wouldn’t fit through her pelvis were totally wrong and fearmongering. I mean, yeah the baby broke her tailbone on the way out and had the facial bruising to prove it, but dammit he fit! *rolls eyes*

      • anotheramy

        Ummm, ouch! That is my definition of a traumatic birth!

    • Mac Sherbert

      Yep. All the older women I know who had vaginal breech births all talk about how bruised up the babies were. One woman even said the doctors told her not to hold her baby for over a week. I don’t get it. I was happy to have my C-section and avoid any kind of stress or damage to my breech baby.

    • Bugsy

      The very fact that she’s still bragging about it on FB makes me question her internal compass.

    • Sue

      Two black eyes and a broken arm? And they whine about the poor babies having to blink a few times at the bright lights? Sheesh!

  • Ashley Martin

    I am shocked!

    How can you stand behind your empowering birth that risked his life? I’ve been there before… But empowering is never a word I could use to describe my homebirth where my baby almost died. I understand that she has a show to put on for “her friends” and probably will never question her midwife or birth.

    I hope her baby gets better…. And when will midwives learn to shut their mouth on social media?

    • yugaya

      Never. Lay midwives do not have a good grasp of basic professional ethics because they are not *real* professionals at all.

  • Cobalt

    “I was shocked at how many kids with sensory issues had problems with nursing or early speech but had meconium issues in common.”

    “always made me wonder which came first, chicken or egg …”

    Oh, the sensory issues definitely came first. That’s why your baby didn’t know not to inhale the meconium.

    Definitely not because of the (apparently frightfully common) hypoxic events during labor for HBACs causing meconium aspiration AND brain problems. Because that might indicate ERCS or at least a hospital monitored VBAC would be a better choice.

    • Medwife

      They’ll blame that stuff on suctioning the mec. Granted, we do less suctioning than we used to. Now, if a mec baby comes out vigorous, we hold off. But it’s pretty odd how you can have a baby that had MAS, a shoulder dystocia, and required resuscitation and say, Oh yes, it had to have been the suction. And yet I’ve heard it.

      • moto_librarian

        Well of course it had to be the suctioning! That’s something that only medical professionals do, after all.

        The cognitive dissonance is stunning.

    • Mel

      *blinks*
      You know which group of kids also has nursing/early speech problems?

      Premature infants who often suffer hypoxic events before, during or after birth. I’d imagine most people would have made THAT connection after a few hours of research – but I’m assuming she’s using a library or medical texts not Woo-Bloggers-R-Us.

      Plus, if you are relying on fetal or neonate sensory input for neonate safety, you are literally nuts. I’ve never had a human baby, but calves come into the world with all 5 senses firing. The problem is that they have NO idea how to use them.

      Feeding them a bottle is a treat. The calf has an instinct to open it mouth and suck on things when they find two vertical objects with a dark area between them. Outside of that, they have no idea what their sensory input is for the first few days. If the nipple of the bottle drops out of their mouth, they can’t use their eyes, nose or feel to find it again. Half of them wander to the other end of the hutch and stick their head in a corner. About 25% start running in circles. After watching mature cows try to get calves to nurse, I realized why the cows use their head to pin the baby against their flank – the little lunatic is unable to get lost, and the nipple is trapped in their mouth.

      Blaming a baby for inhaling meconium is really sick.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        Based on my experience persuading DD to try nursing when she was hungry, I’m going to say that human and cow babies are equally moronic. Fortunately, they’re also pretty darn cute, and they (mostly) have moms who want them to survive.