Vote YES on SB277: if anti-vaxxers are allowed to avoid vaccines, the rest of us should be allowed to avoid anti-vaxxers

Yes SB277

Anti-vaxxers, help me out here. There’s something I don’t understand.

You have been aggressively campaigning against California Senate Bill 277 introduced in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak. SB277 would do away with personal vaccine exemptions, meaning that all children would be required to be fully vaccinated in order to go to public or private schools. The only exemptions allowed would be medical exemptions for allergy to vaccine ingredients or history of a serious adverse reaction to vaccines.

According to the website No on SB277:

Those children who are not completely up-to-date on every state mandated vaccine will be denied a public education ” SB 277 impacts children in private or public elementary or secondary school, child care center, day nursery, nursery school, family day care home, or development center.” SB 277, would eliminate a parent’s right to exempt their children from one, some, or all vaccines, a risk-laden medical procedure…

There’s even a handy little image to put the point across:

Risk choice

Or as the website insists:

Where there is a risk of injury or death, no matter how small the perceived risk may be, there must be a choice.

That’s pretty straightforward and easy to understand, but here’s the part I don’t understand (stick with me here, because this is intellectually tricky):

If you believe that you should be able to avoid vaccinating your children because you consider vaccines dangerous, shouldn’t everyone else in California be able avoid your unvaccinated children because they consider them dangerous?

Children who haven’t been vaccinated pose a risk because they can carry and spread vaccine preventable diseases. How big a risk? That doesn’t matter, right? It doesn’t matter how small the perceived risk may be, there must be a choice.

Shouldn’t you be voting FOR SB277?

When it passes, you will be able to exercise your right to protect your children from vaccines no matter how small the perceived risk may be and everyone else will be able to exercise their right to ban your children from schools no matter how small the perceived risk may be. Everyone will be happy!

Wait, what? You disagree??

Since education is compulsory, opting for no schooling will not be an option.

Duh! That’s the whole point of SB277. Since education is compulsory, despite the fact that your children pose a health threat to the majority of children, their parents are forced to expose them to the threat.

According to you and your anti-vax compatriots:

Risk choice

If there’s a risk, there must be a choice!

Your children pose a risk, and the rest of us have made our choice: you can’t send them to school unless they are fully vaccinated!

That’s why we (and you!) should be encouraging a YES vote on SB277.

Anything else would be astounding hypocrisy on your part, right?

Right??!!

  • And…this needs to do the rounds again.

  • This needs to be seen again.

  • Vacunas Autismo

    Vaccinated kids are festering cesspools of B. parapertussis, keep them in a celler behind a concrete door with 7 locks.

    Proof:

    http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopses/acellular-vaccine-enhancement-b.-parapertussis

    Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization

    An acellular whooping cough vaccine actually enhances the colonization of Bordetella parapertussis in mice; pointing towards a rise in B. parapertussis incidence resulting from acellular vaccination, which may have contributed to the observed increase in whooping cough over the last decade

    And they are actively spreading the disesase to this very day:

    01/14/2016 – Whooping Cough Outbreak In FL Leads To Vaccine Investigations

    • Nick Sanders

      Too late, the bill already passed. You lost.

      • Vacunas Autismo

        You give up your freedoms, you lose. I live in Holland where kids with chickenpox are encouraged to attend school, so go figure.

        • Nick Sanders

          I gave up no freedoms, and lost nothing.

        • demodocus

          My gramma survived measles, you can too!

        • yugaya

          “I live in Holland where kids with chickenpox are encouraged to attend school”

          Ya, sure they are, so that they can catch it naturally and look forward to this:

          “From a representative sample of varicella admissions in the Netherlands, complications were recorded in 76% ofthe patients. Bacterial super infections of skin lesions (28%), dehydration (19%), febrile convulsions (7%),pneumonia (7%) and gastroenteritis (7%) were most frequently reported. In a third of the hospitalised cases with complications, severe complications occurred.” http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/Varicella-guidance-2014-consultation.pdf

          • Vacunas Autismo

            In-hospital complications work like this:

            Mild childhood disease -> scared parents -> hospital -> overmedication -> iatrogenic complications (including hospital pneumonia blamed on varicella/measles/whatever) -> bad name for varicella.

            Lessons to be learned:
            1. don’t use hospitals for mild diseases.
            2. hospital problems are mainly iatrogenic, therefore not valid epidemiological data for mild diseases.

          • yugaya

            My country has over 99% vaccination rates. Varicella vaccine is still not part of mandatory vaccination schedule, but I happened to be stuck for a week on largest infectious diseases hospital’s children’s ward last year, and it was choke full of toddlers brought in from all over the country with severe complications. The same ward is filled with posters and materials from health authorities promoting vaccines that are still optional. Because they see the consequences of “just catching good old chicken pox like our ancestors did” every day. Thus that vaccine is soon to be added to the set of public health measures in my country that keep our children safe from preventable suffering, lifelong damage and death.

            “t works like this:

            Mild child disease -> scared parents -> hospital -> overmedication -> iatrogenic complications (including hospital pneumonia) -> bad name for varicella.”

            Wow, where and when did you get your relevant degree and publish your scientific research into causes of varicella complications in The Netherlands? I would sure love to read such expert opinion in more detail.

          • Nick Sanders

            You quoted the background section of the abstract to prove your point. Maybe you should read the actual paper?

            In the Netherlands [5], the number of varicella related consultations of a general practitioner (GP), hospital admissions and/or deaths per 100,000 inhabitants is low compared with other countries (pre-vaccine area), such as the United States [2], England and Wales [6-8] and Germany [9]. In England and Wales, where the health care system is most comparable to the Dutch situation, there were 507 GP-consults in the period 2001-2007 [6], 5.8 hospital admissions (based on data for England only) in 2000/2001-2008/2009 [7] and 0.038 deaths in 2000-2008 [8] per 100,000 inhabitants annually, which is roughly twice as much as the 238 GP-consults, 1.6 hospital admissions and 0.018 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants in the Netherlands in the period 2000-2008. It is not clear to what extent these differences can be ascribed to regional differences in the epidemiology of VZV, considering the fact that the mean age of infection in the Netherlands was lower than in England and Wales according to seroprevalence studies [10]. Other reasons might be differences in national surveillance systems, the health care system or health care seeking behavior. If these differences could be attributed to differences in the health care system or health care seeking behavior, which is in general more conservative in the Netherlands, there would be a possibility that Dutch hospitalizations due to varicella concern more severe cases than in other countries.In the Netherlands [5], the number of varicella related consultations of a general practitioner (GP), hospital admissions and/or deaths per 100,000 inhabitants is low compared with other countries (pre-vaccine area), such as the United States [2], England and Wales [6-8] and Germany [9]. In England and Wales, where the health care system is most comparable to the Dutch situation, there were 507 GP-consults in the period 2001-2007 [6], 5.8 hospital admissions (based on data for England only) in 2000/2001-2008/2009 [7] and 0.038 deaths in 2000-2008 [8] per 100,000 inhabitants annually, which is roughly twice as much as the 238 GP-consults, 1.6 hospital admissions and 0.018 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants in the Netherlands in the period 2000-2008. It is not clear to what extent these differences can be ascribed to regional differences in the epidemiology of VZV, considering the fact that the mean age of infection in the Netherlands was lower than in England and Wales according to seroprevalence studies [10]. Other reasons might be differences in national surveillance systems, the health care system or health care seeking behavior. If these differences could be attributed to differences in the health care system or health care seeking behavior, which is in general more conservative in the Netherlands, there would be a possibility that Dutch hospitalizations due to varicella concern more severe cases than in other countries. Therefore, a medical record research was conducted among hospitalized patients with diagnosis varicella. This article presents the results of this study.

            The whole point of the study was to find out why the numbers were different, and no, the conclusion was not that the Dutch system is “demonstrably better”.

          • Megan

            And it specifically says they are being compared to other countries in pre-vaccine era. I can count on one hand the number of cases of chickenpox I have seen in my short career, as I have never practiced prior to routine vaccination for chickenpox.

        • Who?

          All your freedoms.

          The most boring argument in the world. Selfish, shallow and vain.

          The only consolation is your children have half your genes, so whether nature or nurture is the key to their future, they will be dulled to the misery all rights and no responsibilities will inflict on them and those around them.

          Since others have read and explained the report you so gleefully quoted, you will now disappear into whatever backward hole you popped out of.

          Thanks for playing though!

  • thevaccinemachine

    Yes, you can stay in your house and avoid people

    • Nick Sanders

      How about you do that instead?

      • thevaccinemachine

        I’m not the one afraid of germs

        • Nick Sanders

          You’re just the one expecting the benefits of society without taking the accompanying responsibilities.

          • thevaccinemachine

            What responsibilities? Where do they come from? Why do I have them?

          • Nick Sanders
          • thevaccinemachine

            I don’t recall signing that contract

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, you somehow learned enough about English and computers and the internet to make it to this blog and whine, so you must have at some point, unless you were raised in a sealed bunker.

          • thevaccinemachine

            Sorry, that makes no sense

          • Nick Sanders

            You’ve clearly participated in and benefited from society, therefore, you’ve “signed” the social contract. If you want out, you’re free to leave society, otherwise, quit refusing to hold up your end of the bargain.

          • Alisha

            Hahaha. For real!

  • Alisha

    Duh! You obviously haven’t done your research. First off, the measles outbreak at Disneyland can hardly be called an outbreak. 177 cases out of millions of people is hardly an outbreak. I am 100% unvax’d, I am 43 years old and perfectly healthy. I have had the measles as have many in my generation and the generations before me and the measles is not a deadly god damn disease. More deaths occur from the vaccine than the minor illness they lead you to believe is deadly and less than half that contracted the illness from Disneyland were unvax’d. Which plain and simply goes to show vaccines are a crock.

    Do a little research and reporting on vaccine induced illness and vaccine virus shedding and see how the vaccinated spread disease and then get back to me! Vaccine inserts clearly state that newly vaccinated individuals need to be, essentially, quarantined for 6 weeks because THEY PASS DISEASE! So save me the crap that my perfectly healthy kid is any risk to you! I am perfect example that in 43 years of my unvax’d life, I have posed no threat to anybody yet vaccines kill babies daily!!!!!!!!

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      I’m sure you’d be happy to help people here do their research by posting links to reputable sources of evidence which support your claims. You seem pretty confident in what you are saying, so that should be easy, right? By the way, links to anti vaccination websites and anecdotes are generally not accepted as reputable sources of evidence on this website, or indeed by the scientific community in general.

    • Nick Sanders

      177 cases in what time frame? Something like two months? That’s nearly as many as there were in the entire year of 2013, and two or three times as many cases as there were in 2012.

      And if you had actually done research, you’d know shedding is not something that happens.

    • MaineJen

      “measles is not a deadly god damn disease” STOP. Just stop. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

      • Roadstergal

        I recently dug out my two favorite Sarah Vowell books so I could enjoy them again. She mentions in Unfamiliar Fishes that Liholiho, aka King Kamehameha the second, and his consort Kamāmalu died of measles after a trip to Europe. All of the organic, non-GMO living that they did in Hawaii helped them not one bit.

  • jjj

    Why are you afraid of non-vaccinated children if these vaccines you want to take are so wonderful and work so well to keep you healthy?????????????????? Explain that.

    • Montserrat Blanco
    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      Well that’s easy.
      1) While vaccination gives good protection, it’s not 100%. Those few people who do not develop immunity following vaccination should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.
      2) Children who are too young to be vaccinated should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.
      3) Some people are unable to receive vaccines for medical reasons. Those people should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.

      Is that the best you can do? Do you think you have any arguments against vaccination that hasn’t been raised (and thoroughly disputed) in the preceding 1300+ comments.

    • Box of Salt

      jjj “Why are you afraid of non-vaccinated children”

      I’m not afraid OF non-vaccinated children. I’m afraid FOR non-vaccinated children: http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine
      The paper (Science – paywalled) is linked within the NPR writeup.

      http://www.healthline.com/health/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis#Overview1

      Increased mortality following measles infection plus the risk of an always-fatal complication – completely preventable by a vaccine.

      And that’s just one disease.

      • Box of Salt

        Plus, keeping track of unvaccinated folks while the disease is spreading costs money:

        http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/747.abstract

        That’s about the 2008 San Diego outbreak imported from Switzerland. That outbreak was relatively small. Just wait until we run the numbers for 2015 related to Disneyland.

      • Alisha

        Read the above study I sent to Nick! About how ur “completely preventable disease by vaccine” killed a child because he got the effin disease from the vaccine. I’ll take measles any day. Ya’ll are a scared of a little rash. I’m a whole hell of a lot more scared of the neurotoxins and putrid matter in vaccines and if u think pharma’s only mission is ur health and not their profits -then ur fools and should be vaccinated. Maybe they’ll soon have a vaccination for naivety! Are u all ready for the 200+ more vaccines coming from pharma. Hold out ur arms guinea pigs!

        • Nick Sanders

          And that’s literally the only time that’s ever happened. Meanwhile, catching the measles “naturally” used to kill a few hundred people a year, even with the best medicine available.

        • Poogles

          I get vaccinated every year for flu season. I am excited and grateful for every new vaccine. Funny how I don’t have any scary illnesses or reactions that you anti-vaxxers like to promote as almost an inevitability; neither do any of the people I personally know who are up to date on their vaccines.

    • Camille

      You will discover “jjj” that this board is filled with people who if not PR shills for BigPharma are at least spewing their talking points verbatim. So, what is it guys, first you say that the unvaccinated are “disease vectors” and “ticking time-bombs” and then you say that they won’t spread disease to the vaccinated because the vaccinated are safe. So, why worry? Your phony sincerity that you care about the unvaccinated is simply BS and another talking point. By the way, more people died of the measles vaccine than measles itself. In ten years there has been no reported deaths in the U.S. but the VAERS database reports 108 deaths due to the measles vaccine.

      • Nick Sanders

        How many deaths per year were there from measles before the vaccine is the number you should be looking at.

        • Alisha

          And those numbers are taken from 3rd world countries currently. Those countries that have no access to clean water, nutritious food and proper sanitation. Puh-lease, measles is a minor rash.

          • Nick Sanders

            What part of “before the vaccine” did you miss? In the years immediately prior to the introduction of the measles vaccine, there were more deaths in the USA each year than the total number Camille is saying have been reported to VAERS from the vaccine in ten years. And VAERS reports are unconfirmed.

            But please, enjoy the “mild rash”:

            http://www.kidshealth.org.nz/sites/kidshealth/files/images/Measles%20boy%20sideview.jpg

          • Alisha

            I did enjoy it already and I have life immunity. No big thing!

            http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article24913978.html

            Non vaccinated children are perfectly healthy and if ur vaccines worked u wouldn’t fret. Don’t forget, ur vax’d kids shed virus and pass disease more than a healthy unvax’d child with no disease. At least my kid isn’t a walking cesspool of viruses.

          • Nick Sanders

            You are completely full of shit. Quit wasting my time.

          • Alisha

            Nah, ur a joke. U aren’t worth my time. U have nothing valid to debate and u know I’m right. Virus shedding is a real thing and u just can’t handle the truth because u don’t doubt research and u follow the masses. Go read a fucken insert. Or CDC’s page. They produce the shit and even they say I’m right. Vaccinated, virus-carrying kids pass disease. Get over it. Here’s a nice “SCIENTIFIC” study for ya!

            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/4/855.short

          • Nick Sanders
          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Um…the article you linked to was about a child with an undiagnosed immunodeficiency syndrome who became ill from the weakened virus in the MMR. It has nothing whatsoever to do with “shedding”. Furthermore, it simply demonstrates that some children are immunosuppressed and therefore not candidates for vaccination. Which is one of the reasons that it is important for healthy children to be vaccinated: to protect those who can not be vaccinated or in whom the vaccine will fail due to poor Ig function.

            Of note, “natural” meales results in SSPE far more frequently than the vaccine does and this child would almost certainly have died if he had been exposed to measles.

          • Roadstergal

            Come on, everyone knows that children with undiagnosed immunodeficiency syndromes do very well when infected with non-attenuated, full-strength ‘natural’ viruses by unvaccinated peers. Because that’s what immunodeficiency does – it makes it really hard to react to weakened viruses or inactive bits of viruses, but super-easy to mount an effective immune response to actual viruses and bacterial toxins.

            Honestly, anti-vaxxer logic. “My financial status makes it very difficult for me to afford an older Honda Civic, so instead of relying on public transit, I’m going to buy a new BMW.”

          • Mattie

            So why do you want your children in a place with a bunch of “walking cesspools of viruses”? Really SB277 is your get out of jail free card, it gives you a perfect excuse to keep your precious children away from all the unsanitary shedding vaccinated kids.

          • Alisha

            Go fuck urself. I have no choice. Just as u have no choice to be around unvaccinated. Dipshit

          • Roadstergal

            You do have a choice. Shockingly enough, despite your lack of ability to spell or reason, you could, legally, homeschool.

          • Alisha

            And so can you smart ass!

          • Who?

            So pure in what they will put into the body, so profane in how they express themselves.

            This paradox fascinates me: the vulgar as pure vessel.

          • LibrarianSarah

            For someone who claims to be so “educated” and “informed” you sure as hell have a lot of trouble spelling out a 3 letter word.

          • Alisha

            Haha-ha fucken ha! Get a life. I spell just fine. I choose to use the words and spell them the way I want. U got what I intended to say! Save ur petty insults cuz they are a lame effort!

          • momofone

            Good comeback! You really told her!

          • Poogles

            “I did enjoy it already and I have life immunity. No big thing!”

            Well lucky for you…not everyone is so lucky:

          • Alisha

            It’s not confirmed because doctors are blinded by the money the pharma sales reps shove in there pockets. Go check propublica.org. It’s a nice little website so people with brains can go see if their doctor(s) have rec’d financial benefits from pharma to push their poison!

          • Nick Sanders

            So you claim the CDC is lying? Because that’s where I got my numbers.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Um…no. I’ve been an MD for >20 years and had Big Pharma offering me everything from pens to “conferences” (that consist of one or two talks in exotic locations followed by lots of time for “discussion” on the beach)*. Never once, not ever, has a single vaccine been mentioned in any discussion a pharma rep has ever had with me.

            Frankly, I wish that Big Pharma would push their vaccines harder: cervical cancer is unpleasant, head and neck cancer worse, and hepatoma downright gross–and the risk of all of the above can be reduced, sometimes to near zero, with appropriate vaccination. But vaccines just don’t make enough money for pharma to push them hard. Certainly not vaccines like the MMR which are off patent. Pharma considers making them charity work.

            *Never took them up on anything more costly than a pen and even the free pen thing has been phased out over the past 10 years or so. It’s a waste of pharma’s money to try to bribe me anyway: the aspergers prevents me from figuring out that I’m supposed to be looking on the bribe giver favorably. Oh, hey, maybe if I didn’t get the MMR I’d have been properly corruptable.

          • Nick Sanders
        • Alisha

          Yes Camille. Go back to 1800’s when they didn’t know the benefits of nutrition, sanitation and washing hands and sterilization in medical practice. Cuz we have the same threats today…. NOT!

          • Nick Sanders

            Try the 1950’s.

      • Bishop

        Oy vey. Another savant here to spew fact-free nonsense.

        A Look at Anti-Vaxxers’ Monstrously Bad Measles Math
        http://www.newsweek.com/look-anti-vaxxers-monstrously-bad-measles-math-304078

        VAERS as “evidence” of vaccine harm
        https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/vaers-as-evidence-of-vaccine-harm/

        Politifact: NaturalNews MMR claim misrepresents data
        http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2015/mar/03/naturalnewscom/vaccine-claim-misinterprets-data/

        Take your pharma shill act back to Natural News, troll.

      • Alisha

        Camille,
        Notice how Bishop only has derogatory shit-talk to reply to u with. That’s because it’s all he can do! BTW, his mother must have been recently vaccinated to name him Bishop! Whatever! Again, nothing valid to argue because they don’t have anything but a false hope and faith in a very large corporation that profits on their blind stupidity and their ignorant following and a corporation that takes no responsibility or accountability for being baby killers by a product that is unsafe and ineffective. I say let them vaccinate!

  • Missmommamimi

    Is this a joke??? Talk about being extremely uneducated on the facts of this matter. I wish I could turn a blind eye as well and buy into the bs but my children are far to important to me. Do u think a normal parent who loves their children would risk their child’s safety by blindly unvaccinating them? I don’t want my decisions harming anyone’s child but I especially don’t want my decisions to harm my own child. SB 277 isn’t about making sure every child is safe & healthy. It’s about profit and in return we lose all rights as parents over our child’s health and well being!!! Let’s say your child is having health issues or is sick, had a bad reaction to a certain vaccine, WONT MATTER!! They will have to receive every damn shot exactly when the government says with no mind to what’s best for your child or you. If a disease is not going to kill my child or cause serious health issues I should have the right not to get them that vaccine. I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial. In a perfect world yes they’d do their job but that’s not the case. I want parents to be more into fighting to improve these vaccines so they work and are safe!!! Not so parents are forced to take the risk so these pharma companies can make as much of a profit they can without having to spend any more momey. Look at the facts! Are u willing to relieve every damn one of those vaccines yourself!?!!!????? Seriously!!!! When was the last time u got all ur boosters??? Are u fully “safe” or are u a risk to EVERYONE!?!?!?

    • momofone

      If your child has a medical reason that prevents him/her from being vaccinated, s/he can get a medical exemption from the doctor.

      I am fully vaccinated, and would absolutely get every vaccine again myself. My son is also fully vaccinated. We have several people in our family with compromised immune systems, and I would never endanger them by not vaccinating.

    • Montserrat Blanco

      Momofone has answered very well: if your child has a medical reason to not get a vaccine you will find it very easy to get a doctor that signs a medical exemption. I do forms like this all the time so that my patients don’t have to go to work and the government does not say a word (our government is paying for sick leave).

      If you do not want to vaccinate your child you can do so, you just can not send your kids to a public school but you have the right to homeschool them or sending them to a private school that does not have vaccination requirements.

      And yes, I am up to date with my boosters. And just in case you are wondering my son is fully vaccinated.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      This bill would change absolutely nothing as far as the abilty of parents to get medical excemptions for their children goes. It would ONLY disallow children who were not vaccinated and had no medical reason to not be vaccinated from attending public school where their presence would put other children at risk. For example, children who could not be vaccinated for medical reasons. If your child is one who can not be vaccinated for medical reasons, SB 277 would make him or her safer.

    • Nick Sanders

      “I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial.”

      And I could go on and on about how to fly by flapping your arms really hard, but what would the point be?

    • yugaya

      ” Are u willing to relieve every damn one of those vaccines
      yourself!?!!!????? Seriously!!!! When was the last time u got all ur
      boosters??? Are u fully “safe” or are u a risk to EVERYONE!?!?!?”

      1. Yes.
      2.Seriously!!!!
      3. Two months ago.
      4. Yes I am fully “safe”. !Ő!Ő!Ő

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Another moron who thinks they are clever by asking if we are up to day, only to find out that, yeah, we are, you dumbass.

      • Alisha

        Only one dumb ass here, and that’s those that are up-to-date. Keep feeding pharma’s wallet and believing you’re actually protected! Haha. Cuz if you believed you were you wouldn’t sweat the unvaccinated!

        • Nick Sanders

          Tell, me, if pharma is so greedy, why sell vaccines at all? There’s much more money in treatment than prevention.

    • LibrarianSarah

      You are not really making a good case for how “educated” you are when you can’t even write out a three letter word. Also, yes I am updated on all my boosters and get my flu shot each year.

      Oh and if you have a legitimate medical reason not to vaccinate and were signed off by your doctor you would be exempt from having to vaccinate under this law. The fact you don’t seem to know that also pokes some holes in the “I’m educated” hypothesis.

      TLDR: You are an idiot.

      • Alisha

        You try asking for a medical exemption! They won’t give them! If you read a little, you would know this! Doctors fear losing their license and have repercussions to pay. My friend’s twins can’t get them after severe, doctor acknowledged, vaccine injuries and lifelong seizures you unsympathetic, insincere, under-researched idiot!

        • Nick Sanders

          Yet another obnoxious, hostile, and insulting anti-vaxxer who somehow miraculously knows multiple people with major vaccine damage. What are the odds?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      1. All but the one I had a reaction to. I’m going to defer that with the blessing of my doctors and the state.
      2. Last year.
      3. Probably not. There are a lot of dangers that vaccination can’t prevent. But I’m not going to be getting (or giving) meales any time soon.
      4. Probably. I think I have allergies right now, but it could be a cold and if so then I’m a risk to those around me (I could give them a cold). That’s a risk that we all have to take to live in society. But I am not going to put anyone at an unnecessary risk just because I find needles inconvenient.

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      “I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial.”

      So you’ve researched the actual facts and science behind vaccines? That’s great, why don’t you post some links to the scientific studies that back up your point of view. If the facts are on your side then you should have no problem backing up your opinions right? Direct links to scientific studies please, not links to biased antivax articles – a few other commentators have tried that further down the page and they’ve been shot down pretty easily. If you can’t link to any actual evidence to support your views then I’ll have to conclude that either you haven’t actually researched it or the evidence you claim doesn’t exist.

      Oh by the way, I’m fully up to date with my vaccines. In fact I got my flu shot and TDAP booster last month – I want to protect my unborn son.

      • Dreamon

        Post? You don’t want anybody to post anything you’re not even going to bother to read it. You want everybody vaccinated because you were dumb enough to do it. Why should anybody get away without being poisoned? Wouldn’t be fair to people like you that already did it. Right?

        • Fallow

          Oh man. When I saw this rambling gibberish pop up in the side bar, I clicked hoping that I could get that sweet, sweet hit of anti-vaxx lunacy.

          Oh yeah. I’m really feeling it now.

          • Alisha

            I guess u don’t read VAERS or wonder why the fuck the government and pharma are shielded from liability, accountability or reponsibility when their vaccines kill children! And I guess u are ok with the fact that they don’t even pay for the damages they cause when they devastate families to the tune of over $3.1 billion dollars. You dumb asses that buy vaccines are paying for the damages with every dose of pollution u put in ur child’s body they take .75 cents to the national vaccine injury trust fund so you can pay the awards to the families of brain damaged and dead children that the pharmaceutical industry injured or killed! Hmmmm brilliant! Have you researched ALEC or visited propublica.org to see how much doctors are paid by pharma to push their vaccines? Have you bothered to read that $1 out of every $4 paid in fines to the U.S. Gov for fraud is the pharmaceutical industry? Do a little more reading passed the gibberish your doctor feeds you. It’s real easy to see when you just follow the money and the injured!

          • Poogles

            I”I guess u don’t read VAERS or wonder why the fuck the government and pharma are shielded from liability, accountability or reponsibility when their vaccines kill children!”

            I guess u don’t understand how VAERS or the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program actually works.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      1. Yes, even the old DPT shot that makes me seriously ill. Chills and fever and puking for a couple days or lock jaw, contracting a cough that often leads to pneumonia and won’t let me sleep, and/or barking cough with the potential for my entire beck to swell up to the point where I can’t breathe? Yeah, I’d still do the old vaccine.

      2. 2012 when I started my job at the hospital and got my titers checked to prove my immunity to measles, mumps, and rubella since my records weren’t with me. Would you like me to post them?

      3. My titers appear to be in the immune level so, yes?

      4. More like people are a risk to me. I suspect an immune disorder runs on my mom’s side of the family but I can’t afford to do all the antibody testing and they can’t either. Only a younger cousin is confirmed to have an immune disorder and they’re still not sure what type. I pick up every single airborne disease that goes through this town…except the ones I’m vaccinated against. Funny, huh? That’s how I knew they hit the wrong flu combination this year. Every time they miss one of the more common mutations I get a sinus infection from hell that becomes a lovely breeding spot for bacteria. Which then requires antibiotics no matter how many times I try to clean out my sinuses. You have no idea how happy I am to line up for a flu shot to avoid that particular hell.

      Comphrensive enough or shall I continue?

      Edit: And my parents did worry about me. My parents are in the age group where the pio vaccine was getting some bad press and my parents weren’t sure if they should get me vaccinated. But they remember the crippled children they went to school with. Dad says he swears at one time it was like one in seven kids he knew were criped in some way or suffering from post polio syndrome. They got me vaccinated in the end. The risks of complications from the polio vaccine were lower than an actual polio infection. That’s responsible research.

    • Box of Salt

      “If a disease is not going to kill my child or cause serious health issues”

      Tell me, Missmommamimi, how would you know that?

  • HippieSkeptic

    Gotta go guys — busy day at work today. HS out.

  • Camille

    PhD Scientist and Biochemist Reveals Hidden CDC Documents Showing Thimerosal In Vaccines Increase Neurologic Disorders

    image: http://i2.wp.com/vaccineresistancemovement.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/thimerosal_bottle.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=208%2C282

    The CDC has been shunning the correlations between thimerosal and neurological disorders for a very long time. Although the FDA gave a two year deadline to remove the mercury based preservative from vaccines after the neurotoxin was banned in 1999, it still remains to this day in 60 percent of flu vaccines. A vaccine industry watchdog has now obtained CDC documents that show statistically significant risks of autism associated with the vaccine preservative, something the CDC denies even when confronted with their own data.

    Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cdc-forced-release-documents-showing-knew-vaccine-preservative-autism/#YMmm6mMzVx8sKUfF.99

    • Megan

      Yet more crap from unreliable sources. This is what a real scientific source looks like, Camille:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25562790/?i=9&from=vaccines%20autism
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25862449/?i=3&from=vaccines%20autism
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25898051/?i=1&from=vaccines%20autism
      These are just from the first page of search results. I could list many many more. There is no evidence of a link between autism and thimerosol or the MMR vaccine and autism. You can thank me for doing the work of looking up actual scientific information for you. Though I’m sure you won’t bother reading any of it.

      • Camille

        Megan, It does not surprise me that you would go to a government source to get your documentation. The government and industry has a vested interest in hiding any linkages to vaccine and neurological and immune system damages FOR A REASON. There were many lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies that were being won by vaccine damaged individuals before the government gave liability protections to vaccine manufacturers. It is in both government and industries best interests to hide the evidence and to put their own data up on their sites to protect their interests.

        • Megan

          None of those papers are from the government. They are from peer-reviewed scientific journals detailing research done at universities around the world. As I suspected you didn’t read them. I could have gone to my local library and gotten those papers as well but then I can’t link them for you.

          • Camille

            They are only peer-reviewed papers that support the government and industries position that vaccines are safe, whereas there is plenty of peer-reviewed scientific papers that show otherwise. READ:

            What the News Isn’t Saying About Vaccine-Autism Studies, By Sherly Attkisson.

            Many of the studies have common themes regarding a subset of susceptible children with immunity issues who, when faced with various vaccine challenges, end up with brain damage described as autism.

            “Permanent brain damage” is an acknowledged, rare side effect of vaccines; there’s no dispute in that arena. The question is whether the specific form of autism brain injury after vaccination is in any way related to vaccination.

            So what are a few of these published studies supporting a possible link between vaccines and autism?

            As far back as 1998, a serology study by the College of Pharmacy at University of Michigan supported the hypothesis that an autoimmune response from the live measles virus in MMR vaccine “may play a causal role in autism.” (Nothing to see here, say the critics, that study is old.)

            In 2002, a Utah State University study found that “an inappropriate antibody response to MMR [vaccine], specifically the measles component thereof, might be related to pathogenesis of autism.” (“Flawed and non-replicable,” insist the propagandists.)

            Also in 2002, the Autism Research Institute in San Diego looked at a combination of vaccine factors. Scientists found the mercury preservative thimerosal used in some vaccines (such as flu shots) could depress a baby’s immunity. That could make him susceptible to chronic measles infection of the gut when he gets MMR vaccine, which contains live measles virus. (The bloggers say it’s an old study, and that other studies contradict it.)

            intramuscular injection of vaccines containing aluminium hydroxide such as hepatitis B vaccine.17Thirdly, there are reports of the onset of chronic autoimmune disease and, in particular, of RA.

            http://sharylattkisson.com/what-the-news-isnt-saying-about-vaccine-autism-studies/

          • momofone

            I’m curious about Sheryl Attkisson’s credentials–can you tell us what they are?

          • Camille

            Sharyl Attkisson (born January 26, 1961)[1] is an Emmy-award winning American author and formerly an investigative correspondent in the Washington bureau for CBS News. She had also substituted as anchor for the CBS Evening News. From 1990-93, Attkisson was an anchor for CNN. Attkisson received an Investigative Reporters and Editors (I.R.E.) Finalist award for Dangerous Drugs in 2000.[8] In 2001, Attkisson received an Investigative Emmy Award nomination for Firestone Tire Fiasco from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. [9]

          • momofone

            How does that make her a credible source about scientific studies?

          • Megan

            Per Camille “credible” is anyone who agrees with her. Everyone else is part of some nefarious worldwide conspiracy.

          • Poogles

            So…..she’s a journalist? Not qualified to speak on science she doesn’t understand? Sounds about right.

          • Oh. A talking head who can read a teleprompter.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            She is a person who lost her job for lying

          • Nick Sanders

            Apart from all the loaded language and clear reporter bias, I’d like some proof “chronic measles infection of the gut” even exists before I take such claims seriously.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            If there are plenty of peer reviewed scientific papers that prove your point, then why have you repeatedly failed to link to them? And I mean directly to those papers, not to antivax articles or YouTube videos which reference them?

          • Megan

            In case you didn’t notice (or didn’t read) the abstracts, two of the three of my citations were research studies done in other countries (Japan and Poland). Why would they have any interest in lining the pockets of U.S. politicians/government or in U.S. Pharmaceutical companies?

          • Poogles

            “They are only peer-reviewed papers that support the government and industries position that vaccines are safe”

            So you admit that you will not accept any studies or evidence supporting vaccines simply because they agree with “the government and industries [sic] position that vaccines are safe”.

            That is the opposite of science and you are willingly ignoring reality because it does not align with your preconceived notions.

            “The question is whether the specific form of autism brain injury after vaccination is in any way related to vaccination.”

            Only anti-vaxxers claim autism is a brain “injury” AFAIK, so this is a moot point.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            There’s that “injury” word again.

            How am I supposed to believe that anti-vaxxers don’t think there’s anything wrong with me and don’t in fact pity me when they keep throwing that word out?

        • Megan

          And by the way, I thought you said pubmed was credible. Either you think it is or you don’t. You can’t play it both ways.

    • JJ

      Please read more about how science works. Rogue doctors posting youtube videos and lone rangers with their special findings are not impressive to scientifically literate.

    • Bugsy

      Both the title and the basis premise of the article are quite disingenuous. Aside from being a scientist in a field unrelated to epidemiology, Dr. Hooker’s other claim to fame is that he’s a board member of an organization that believes there has been a cover-up of the vaccine/autism link.

      In addition, I noticed that the article quotes Dr. Hooker’s interpretation of the CDC data without any actual evidence of it directly. Given his personal biases, we can reasonably assume that this interpretation is also biased, further compounded by the lack of any demonstrable evidence backing up his assertions.

    • DelphiniumFalcon

      My question is this: even IF vaccines were to cause cases of autism, you’re saying that autism is a fate worse than death?

      I find that highly insulting.

      I am autistic. I like the way I am. I don’t have a huge autistic pride thing going on but I do not wring my hands and wail to the heavens every day asking why, oh why, do I have this condition. I see things different from other people. My thought processes are more local than global focused. This gives me a different perspective. My management team doesn’t know I’m autistic because I don’t want them to treat me like a freak, but they know if there’s a particular weak link in a process, they tell me to start in one place and work my way out and I will almost always find the problem. They don’t realize it’s a fundamental difference in how I process information that allows me to find and solve problems quickly in this line of work.

      I’m not broken and I don’t feel sorry for myself. I get annoyed when I get made fun of for not processing what another person is feeling but I do not lack empathy. Once I know someone is upset, I feel so deeply that it might as well be my own pain. I have issues with a certain type of empathy, not all empathy. This isn’t uncommon in people with Asperger’s syndrome.

      But people like me are to be pitied. Because we’re “injured” in some way. We’re broken and need to be paraded as such. No wonder so many people with autism aren’t able to flourish! The ones with less dramatic symptoms or with severe symptoms that they “bloom” out of with extra support can blend into society remarkably well. But the ones that will bloom will not without that intervention.

      Do you want people like us not to exist? My life isn’t as awful as people who hold up autistic children as the standard of vaccine injury say it is. I’m married, own a house, have two cars, hold down a job, and I even have a dog. Maybe I’m not the normal experience. Or maybe I’m doing well because my parents never saw me as broken and a lost cause and I was able to flourish in a safe place.

      I sincerely hope if you ever have an autistic child that you don’t treat them like anti-vaxxers do.

      I am not a victim. Stop treating me like one.

      • Camille

        I never said autism is worse than death, nor do I pity you. You seem to be very a very high functioning person. However, your condition does not negate a potential connection between vaccines and autism and other autoimmune diseases. By the way, I do have friends who’s kids are not on the high functioning autistic spectrum and it is not pretty. They’re kids scream constantly up at night, they suffer seizures constantly, they bang their heads, and they have a mental capacity of a child in an adult body.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          I know others on the lower end of the spectrum too. The one i know best and used to babysit, his mother has worked with him constantly. When he’s not being treated like a freak, he’s a pretty happy guy. Nonverbal, self destructive, full meltdown head banging, screaming tantrums and hitting sometimes but mostly when forced outside his comfort zone by teachers for no other reason because they said so. His mother is a saint. She worries about what will happen when she’s gone, but I never saw her, his dad, or his sister treat him like he was broken. They love him. He’s even taken to giving people big bear hugs as an adult since he still doesn’t talk much but wants to show affection.

          Even if vaccines were to blame, whooping cough has a nasty habit of sweeping through the area. So does chicken pox. I’m pretty sure if I went and asked her now if shed prefer he were injured by a vaccine preventable illness or take the vaccine, she’d vaccinate every time.

          Also, once again, vaccines do not cause autism. However one of the few known causes of autism is a maternal infection with German Measles in the first trimester. Which MMR guards against.

          • demodocus

            not to mention the other possible problems rubella can do to a fetus.

        • Nick Sanders

          Sure you do. You and every other antivaxxer somehow mysteriously all know people on the extreme bottom end of the autism spectrum.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            They also say they don’t think autism is worse than death or that they pity people like me, bit autism is the go to “Won’t somebody think of the children?!” plea so honestly what am I supposed to think.

            Maybe my overly logical autistic brain just sees the connection:

            Anti-Vaxxer doesn’t want people to vaccinate -> Pulls out papers showing supposed link with vaccines to autism -> Starts saying things like think of the poor children and the poor parents! -> Higher functioning autistic people like myself get pissed and say to stop touting us as a casualty of war -> Anti-vaxxers claim they never looked down on or implied anything was wrong with autistic children -> Goes back to treating vaccinated autistics like ASPCA puppies for their cause.

          • Camille

            Yes, Nick, we do know these people and they are cropping up all over these days. My BF’s business partners each have one child, and both of these children are autistic, one severely (the head beater and screamer). Same with my girlfriend whose kid is somewhat functional, however, he will need to be in a home for his entire adulthood. Don’t you dare tell me they don’t exist. A-hole.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            …that is not what he was saying at all.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          I’ve met a number of children on the low functioning end of the autism spectrum. They’re mostly just flat out uninterested in humanity. They scream occasionally, probably because things like the color yellow or off key whistling hurt to look at/listen to, but they’re not “constantly” screaming. I haven’t met any with a seizure disorder, which is not unexpected since less than 10% of severe autism spectrum disorders have any association with seizures. They’ll probably never be completely independent, but maybe it’s ok to be a person who needs some help?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Not to mention a good portion of people on the autistic spectrum have another comorbid disorder. ADHD, depression, and anxiety being some of the more common ones.

            And hey, guess what causes gastrointestinal upset? Anxiety! Maybe there’s the missing link!

            Boom. Problem solved.

            Also, off key singing and whistling? I’m so called “high functioning” and I want to let out a war shriek and strangle people that play or sing off key. I’m sorry. It’s a very animalistic reaction but you have no idea how much it actually does hurt my ears. Or maybe you do. It’s like an ice pick through ear drums. The “low functioning” ones are just doing what I wish I could.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I have a weird thing with whistling and a capella singing in general. I can’t stand even GOOD, tuneful a capella singing. The only way I can control my reaction is by thinking about how hurt and confused the other person would be if I suddenly ran away screaming. I can imagine that someone who couldn’t express themselves verbally and therefore couldn’t communicate well enough to understand the other person’s motivations (they’re just singing to themselves, not trying to upset you) would get out of control very quickly. It hurts and it’s a normal human instinct, autistic or neurotypical, to try to make pain stop.

          • demodocus

            My toddler glares at us when we sing badly in choir. It’s pretty funny. If it’s bad enough, he’ll cry. Since his ped is not at all worried about asd, we figure he just has a really good sense of pitch like his father and that bad tones *offend* him.

        • LibrarianSarah

          The funny thing is a lot of the things you mention can describe me as well. I am a head banger, (I have transitioned to doing it against a pillow now though) a toe walker, I have had seizures, I scream (though not constantly and mostly in private now) and will probably never be able to be “completely independent” (whatever that means). However, most people who I talk to consider me on the “high functioning” end of the spectrum. Funny it is almost like “functioning levels” are bullshit that people like you use at your discretion as opposed to real, solid, medical criteria that differentiates autistic people from one another.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I’m not a fan of the functioning levels myself since it’s been shown that previously “low functioning” individuals can bloom into “high functioning” with the right care and encouragement. It’s rare, but it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, why does it matter? Sometimes I envy the “lower functioning” autistics. They don’t give nearly as much of a crap about stupid stuff in society as I, a “higher functioning” individual does.

            It’s like the old addage says, you meet one autistic person, you’ve met AN autistic person. We have a cluster of symptoms in common but they manifest different from person to person because, and here’s the shocker, we have different personalities! I mean, it’s almost like we’re human beings or something!

            It’d be nice if anti-vaxxers would stop using people like us as boogymen for their bs. Or at least let us dress up and chase people around if they’re going to keep doing it.

      • Poogles

        “I am autistic. I like the way I am. […] I see things different from other people. My thought processes are more local than global focused. This gives me a different perspective. […] I’m not broken and I don’t feel sorry for myself. […] My life isn’t as awful as people who hold up autistic children as the standard of vaccine injury say it is. I’m married, own a house, have two cars, hold down a job, and I even have a dog. Maybe I’m not the normal experience. Or maybe I’m doing well because my parents never saw me as broken and a lost cause and I was able to flourish in a safe place.”

        Thank you so much for this comment. It amazes and sickens me how often autism is made out to be worse than a death sentence while the voices of those who are actually autistic are ignored and left out of the discussion.

        • DelphiniumFalcon

          Ah but don’t you know, I can voice my opinion so I’m not autistic enough to count. Only those that can’t call them on their bullshit count. 😉

          • Poogles

            “I can voice my opinion so I’m not autistic enough to count.”

            Right?!? Fucking ridiculous. I’m not on the spectrum myself, but my little sister was diagnosed with Aspergers and I get so frustrated when people discount her experience. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be the one to experience that dismissal firsthand.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            It gives you this urge to start screaming in frustration but you don’t want them to assume you’re throwing an “autistic temper tantrum.”

            I just start discounting their experiences based on how my brain views things that I usually keep unvoiced if they really piss me off. “How could you have literally died from the pain? That’s physically impossible. As in against the laws if physics.” “Well I didn’t mean literally!” “But you said literally.” “But I didnt mean it like that.” “See, the world has problems because we have issues using words correctly toto express ourselves. We’re far too imprecise” When they get angry with me I go “Hey, it’s almost like having your first hand experiences with an illness that you live with every day countered and dismissed pisses people off! Who knew?!”

            People say autistics don’t have a sense of humor. Some of us do and it’s a bit wicked. Don’t ask me to act “more” autistic for fit your needs, anti-vaxxers. I’ll turn off my learned social coping mechanisms and it won’t be pretty. Those are in place for the benefit if others and to keep others from bullying me because I’m different. They don’t have to be there.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Well, technically severe enough pain might cause death by one of a couple of mechanisms: It might drive the person to kill themselves to get rid of the pain. It might stress them bad enough to have a heart attack or increase their BP enough that they have a stroke. It’s not actually totally impossible. Though I guess it isn’t the pain per se that kills in that case.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Ha! Touche! I conceed your point! Most people that discount the experiences of others though aren’t going to be able to refute as you did. Because that takes research and research is haaaaaard.

          • Gatita

            I think we should try to be fair to parents who are dealing with some incredibly difficult situations. If you have an adult child who isn’t toilet trained, doesn’t speak, engages in self-harming behaviors, and will never live independently–that’s terribly difficult. I think the reason you get the “you’re not autistic enough” line is that when people tell them that not all autistic people are like that or even non-verbal people communicate in their own way, it can feel like a slap in the face and a devaluation of their incredibly difficult situations. I don’t think we should give anyone a pass for going full paranoid antivaxx or abusing their children. But having known people who, for example, couldn’t keep caregivers because their children kept assaulting them (family with plenty of money, too, just couldn’t get anyone to stick around), I understand where they’re coming from. It’s just fucking hard.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            It absolutely is hard. The whole “vaccines cause autism” is an insult to everyone on the spectrum really.

            How much funding has been wasted looking for the autism-vaccine connection that has been disproven again and again that could have gone to the types of autistics you’re talking about and their parents? When those of us that can speak and ask for research in another direction to help those that didn’t roll so lucky on the spectrum, then get shit down saying we’re not autistic enough to have an opinion it pisses us off.

            We know it’s hard to have the mild symptoms. It must be beyond frustrating to have the most severe. For both the person and their care takers.

            That’s why I get angry when anti-vaxxers tell people like me to shut up when j say to leave us alone. Because they want more and more money thrown at studies that we already know the answers to. We could be using that funding to pay for functional MRI scans on the boy I know and the person you’re describing to see -how- their brains are different. Genetic sequencing on people all over the spectrum to see if we can identify genetic influences. What areas of the brai are active during what kind of stimuli? Could we develop and interface that could help them communicate? Could we have already done that if money wasn’t being syphoned off into more pseudoscience like supposed vaccination connections or dangerous chelation therapy?

            They deserve to have all of that and more instead of their challenges being coopted by people with an agenda that is not in the best interest of the person or caregivers.

            So that’s why I get angry that I get told I’m not autistic enough. I’m saying they’re looking in the wrong spot and I get told to buzz off. I want to help but someone else is steering the ship and we’re just along for the ride.

            I want the boy I know that doesn’t talk and still has poop smearing episodes to be understood. I want people to look at him and instead of saying “oh it must have been vaccines and now he’s broken and there’s nothing we can do” to look at him and say “how does he experience the world? What compels him to do one thing but not the other? Is life uncomfortable for them or is it something else?” They don’t need pity. They need to be understood. If that can happen and we can understand why those behaviors hallen, maybe those more destructive behaviors can be addressesed. Then those parents that have been hit, cleaned up poorp smeared walls, and can’t find a way to communicate with their child will finally have relief.

            I know the toll it has on parents. This boy’s mom didn’t ever leave his side from the day he was born until he was about six or seven, when I started to babysit him. I had a reputation for being a good babysitter and extremely gentle/soft spoken and they’d known me for years. I was the only person that ever baby sat for him and his sister had to help me a lot. His mom is brilliant but never dared leave him alone until then. And it was just one Friday a month for a movie at first. His dad works with my dad and they work long hours with a lot of overtime. She was alone a lot. It’s been hard for her. A lot of the difficulty being with the school treating him badly.

            She’s a good mom. Puts up with a lot of abuse from many angles. She should be a candidate for sainthood, really. Shouldn’t some of that money go to people like themthem instead of another useless research study to day “Yup, still not vaccines.”

          • Gatita

            I feel like you’re having an argument with someone who’s not me. Of course we need to stop studying vaccines, it’s completely absurd and a waste of money. But telling parents it’s not that bad or pointing out that not everyone with autism isn’t incapacitated doesn’t do anything to win over the parents whose children are incapacitated.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            So then why is it okay to tell those people that essential their child is broken? That it’s okay for society to look down on them? I’m not going for special star child, I mean observing that children who aren’t trying to be forced into this mold called “acceptable” have less issues. The worst I’ve seen severely affected autistics is when teachers try to force them to talk, try to force them to touch something that causes overstimulation, or push them out of their comfort zone with absolutely no compassion or understanding of mentally painful it is.

            Some will still have the violent symptoms. But I see so many do so much better when they’re not being forced to conform to what we consider “normal”. We know that doesn’t work but we keep traumatizing kids in the name of “helping”.

            Maybe it’s time to look at it from another perspective. People that are deaf to the point of being unable to detect voices well enough to interpret speech have to use another way to communicate. However, if you were to use the same terminology that’s been applied to severely autistic people, you’d have some very angry sign language coming at you and you won’t need to understand sign language to know you just severely insulted them. The deaf community has their own culture and a certain pride. Most people in the deaf community don’t like to be considered broken.

            Before they had a way to communicate, it’d be easy to assume they’re “retarded” or “detached from the world.” Sound famiar? In reality they were missing a component of normal human communication. Their family members could understand them to a point, but they had no way of communicating their thoughts to the outside world.

            If you know about Helen Keller’s early life after being rendered deaf and blind as a child, when relearning how to interact with the world she was often frustrated. Once while her teacher was trying to teach the word “mug”, Helen broke it out of anger. She acted out a lot until she was able to express herself enough to be understood.

            Now with the deaf there were separate schools of thought. Oralism, teaching them to speak so they could be understood by others (a convenience for society) and sign language (more convenient and easier to grasp but inconvenient to society). Oralism was eventually considered a dismal failure. Very few deaf people mastered it and many more became frustrated and still were frustrated by being unable to communicate. When it was understood that sign language was a more natural way of communicating, because they often made tbeir own signs in the first place. While the integration of deaf people isn’t oerfdctz many of the issues they once faced are starting to fade. My generation was taught to consider them as normal intelligence people that just communicated different for example.

            That’s why I ask, what if we’re missing s critical component of autistic communication? What if we need to stop trying to shove them into what society wants them to be, which exacerbates the unwanted behaviors (as what happened with oralism) and research if there is a way to communicate that comes more naturally, their sign language if you will.

            Do we need to force people on the spectrum to make eye contact? In some cultures that’s considered extremely rude and most animals consider it a threatening gesture. I feel my fight or flight button getting slammed repeatedly when I’m forced to make eye contact and I can verbalize my discomfort. Do we have to force them to be comfortable with touch or certain fabrics when it makes their brain explode with sensation? Maybe we need to stop looking at what makes autistics more palatable to society because it’s convenient but they’re screaming inside and outside for help and no one understands.

            Being denied comfort and a feeling of safety and understanding I think drives almost any human batty. It’s not a stretch to imagine it’d make them violent trying to push the discomfort away.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Really, even those people can call them on their bs online. I know several nonverbal autistic people that post online.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            But they are articulate and not doesn’t fit the mold of using them like abused ASPCA puppies so we autistics that are able to communicate in any way just aren’t autistic enough.

            …I wonder what they’ll do when they find a way to allow non communicating autstics to communicate (if it’s possible) in the future and they also tell the anti vaxxers to beat a new horse what they’ll latch on to.

            Ah well. We’ll always have colitis.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I don’t know…my impression of some “low functioning”, nonverbal austics is that they aren’t interested enough in other humans to bother trying to communicate with them. So I think step 1 might be to find a way to make people interesting enough to this set of autistics to make them willing to bother trying to learn to communicate. (Though I should point out that this idea is complete speculation on my part and not based on good data.)

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            That is the difficult part isn’t it? Despite sharing some characteristics, I can’t even guess on what’s going on in their minds. Are you correct that there’s just nothing out there to draw their interest? Fundamental brain wiring differences that make it impossible to communicate with neurotypical humans? If we were able to design an interface that could display what someone is thinking, is the autistic brain process so alien to “normal” that we’d get a mess of images that don’t make sense? I suspect we’d get that even with “high” functioning autistics as I’m almost positive that my thought processes are completely different from how “normal” people process.

            It’s an intriguing thing. Which is why to write off ” low functioning ” individuals as unreable is rather short sighted.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I suspect we’d get that even with “high” functioning autistics as I’m
            almost positive that my thought processes are completely different from
            how “normal” people process.

            I occasionally fantasize about what society would be like if I were average. For example, the ratio of bookstores to clothing stores in your average mall would be inverted. Politicians would try to convince people to vote for them by presenting large masses of data and would deny accusations that they were “charismatic” vehemently. Most likely no one would be willing to take up sales or politics as a career so it’s likely that there’d have to be a draft type situation where everyone was required to spend their 2 years in high social requirement work before they could go off and do something interesting…In short, society would be significantly different and probably significantly less workable. What the world would be like if severe autism were the norm, I can’t even guess.

            OTOH, if we as a society could find a way to get severe autistics interested in communicating with neurotypicals or even moderate autistics and make it possible to do so, that technology might be transferable to any aliens that we might encounter (/thinking way to far ahead.)

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I like the way you think! And there’s an interesting premise for speculative fiction!

    • Nick Sanders
  • Camille

    About the dangers of aluminum in vaccines from Dr. Suzanne Humphries.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzqPrSnaqbc

    • Mike Stevens

      Read about aluminum in vaccines from someone who is actually a medical expert in the relevant field.
      “We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that contain aluminum
      adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the
      benefits of using vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any
      theoretical concerns.”

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122

    • Megan

      Another youtube video? Really? If you really do believe that pubmed is credible like you say (because you were “just ribbing me” when you said it wasn’t credible) then why won’t you use it to post legitimate evidence? My guess is because no legitimate evidence supports your position. It shows a pattern of laziness to continue posting YouTube videos as “evidence.”

      • Camille

        Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do. Gee, First you complain that I send too long movie “Silent Epidemic” because no one would watch something that long, so I put up a short one and you complain that I am lazy. God, you people are full of contradictions!

        • momofone

          Actually, I think the expectation that you would read and/or at least understand the findings of scientific papers if you’re going to make the claims you have has been pretty consistent. I don’t pore over detailed scientific papers either, but I make sure to pay attention to what the people who do say about them. And a 2-hour Gary Null video is not the same as a scientific anything, short, long, or otherwise.

          • JJ

            Exactly. This is why I defer to the experts on vaccines because it would be silly for a SAHM with a sociology degree to say I know better than 99% of scientists and doctors worldwide.

          • Camille

            The video is not about Gary Null. The film presents many medical professionals whose research concludes something very different to the meme that vaccinations have very little risks. I have heard mainstream newspaper editors and medical professionals (Ofitt for one) say vaccines are safe. If they pose some risks, and people should be aware of those risks and have the right to informed consent because of these risks.

          • JJ

            NO ONE is denying they pose some risks. Tylenol poses some risks, vitamins, excessive water….

            EVERYTHING has risks and benefits.

          • Camille

            Well, JJ, thank you for pointing out the obvious, that there are risks involved. That is why people should have choice and not be forced to have vaccine shot into them or their children.

          • momofone

            But forced vaccines aren’t being proposed. Parents can choose not to vaccinate. It’s just that in doing so, they’re choosing not to go to public schools. Every choice has a consequence.

          • Camille

            As pointed out earlier, that is discrimination, and is not fair. If you’re going to demand that people can’t have a public education if they are not vaccinated, then those people should not have to pay for public education. Already they will have a financial burden by homeschooling. If the state wants to pay for this then fine. I believe they should.

          • momofone

            No. That is reality. If I choose to go to work and defame the president of my company–which I can do by virtue of freedom of speech–I get to say what I want. I also bear the consequences, which would possibly include losing my job. The right to choose does not equal a right to be free of the consequences of my choice.

          • Wren

            If a family chooses to lead a fully nudist lifestyle, their children cannot attend public school without putting clothes on. Many schools extend that further to specific dress codes or uniforms, rules on hairstyles and make up, rules on jewellery, etc. None of those things is discrimination and none affect the health of fellow students as much as vaccination status can potentially do.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            A child who is not vaccinated poses a risk to other children. They can not be safely incorporated into the public school system, especially as more children with immune deficiency issues are able to survive and be healthy enough to take part in public education. If you want to endanger your child and make him or her a danger to others, that is your choice, but the state is not obliged to accomedate your stupidity.

          • Bugsy

            Nice try. I lived in a town where a cult was having the children where t-shirts to the public schools stating “Islam is of the devil.” The kids were sent home for violation of the school district’s dress code. Would you consider their being sent home to be discrimination as well?

            http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090825/ARTICLES/908259940

          • Nick Sanders

            No free riders allowed.

          • JJ

            There are risks to driving your kids to school, feeding them, and bathing them yet parents are still required to do these things. Also, one last time, no one is FORCING you do anything. You get to make a choice with a consequence.

          • Megan

            It’s called a risk/benefit ratio. And in this case the benefits FAR outweigh any risks.

          • Camille

            Do you know that 50% of kids today have some kind of autoimmunity problems? Allergies, Asthma, Autism, Aspergers, diabetes, speech disorders, etc. etc. all potential problems that are spelled out on vaccine inserts. Any correlation these and the vastly increase schedule of mandated vaccines?

          • momofone

            Source? (I’d say “credible” but I’m pretty sure it’s a moot point.)

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Um…reference? Where do you get this number? Is it actually different from past data?

          • JJ

            Correlation does not make causation. Organic food sales correlate well with autism.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Incredibly well. R2 of greater than 0.99. And much “organic food” is actually treated with older, “natural” pesticides. Older pesticides are far more likely to have an adverse effect on brain development than newer, more specific pesticides. So there’s a biologically plausible explanation. Investigating organic food as a potential etiology of autism would be quite reasonable. At one point, investigating vaccines was reasonable, but it’s been done, it’s not the problem, time to move on.

          • Bugsy
          • Bugsy

            Fascinating that so many of these disorders also arose simultaneous to the increase in the use of organic foods.

            Correlation? Causation? I’m not willing to blame one on the other based on my presupposed need to correlate ideas.

            http://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/correlation_causation_independence-98944

          • Camille

            Oh god, that’s pathetic Bugsy.

          • Bugsy

            Thanks, Camille…you just made my day! I’m honoured to be called pathetic by an anti-vaxxer.

          • Megan

            Find me a credible source that shows 50% of kids are sick with those things. I see children as a physician for a living and I can tell you that half of them are not sick.
            Also, anything that gets reported to VAERS is put on the vaccine insert. It does not have to be shown to be caused by the vaccine. I could say that I got tired after a vaccine and report it and it would be listed even though no one knows why I got tired. Correlation does not equal causation. breastfeeding rates have also gone up as autism rates have but I am sure you would not argue that breastfeeding causes autism.
            Did you know that as usage of thimerosol-containing vaccines has gone down, the rate of autism diagnosis has still gone up? How would you explain that?

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            So… I just got my HepB vaccine so I can get my phlebotomy license. But I forgot vaccines cause autism. But I’m already autistic! Am I going to get more autistic?!

          • LibrarianSarah

            It means you are going to get super powers you lucky bastard you.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            Behold! My aluminum ray! Able to corrupt the pure, organic produce in seconds! The Autistic Scream! Be incapacitated by the devil shrieking all anti-vaxxers think we do! Viral Shed! Cower as I shed all my vaccines to infect all!

            Mwahahahaha!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Excellent. The plan for world domination progresses…

          • Nick Sanders

            You have an aluminum ray? Listen, I have a bunch of scrap metal, and if you’ll zap it for me, I’ll split the increase in recycling value with you.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Wow that’s quite the set. The only thing I can do is give people autism.

          • Nick Sanders

            Do you know how frequently kids with autoimmunity problems died in the first few years of life until recently? Type I Diabetes, the kind I assume you are referring to, used to be a guaranteed death sentence.

            And Autism, Asperger’s, “speech disorders”, and who know how many of the things you are listing as “etc.” are not autoimmune disorders.

          • Bugsy

            But if Big Pharma and the government aren’t to be trusted, why would you trust their vaccine inserts for accuracy?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Vaccine inserts are legal documents to protect the manufacturer. They list everything that happens during the clinical trials even if they happened in the placebo group. It doesn’t do you much good to read something you obviously don’t understand

          • LibrarianSarah

            Okay then using your logic then because their is risk involved with excessive water, parents should be able to have a choice whether or not they give their children water. If I were you I would jump on this cause since parents are actually put in jail for child neglect for withholding water as opposed to just not being able to put their kids in schools.

          • Nick Sanders

            And no one is being forced. So that should be the end of that, right?

        • Wren

          Bingo! It is preceisely because lay people do not have the time and expertise to pour over detailed scientific papers that deferring to the experts who have both the time and the expertise is the sensible option. When the vast majority of those experts worldwide agree, ignoring them in favour of a few who disagree without actually understanding the issues and reading the papers yourself is rather foolish.

          • Bugsy

            Yes!!!!

        • Megan

          I never complained about the length of your movies, only that they were not credible. I posted links above to scientific studies refuting your claims about thimerosol, MMR and autism. I also distilled it into a single summarizing sentence for you: There is no link between thimerosol or MMR and autism. You won’t believe me of course. But you are also unwilling to look at actual science, apparently because you are a lay person without time or expertise to read those studies. That’s why others have done it for you. Most lay people are smart enough to listen to people who can understand scientific literature if they themselves do not. It is only arrogant and willfully ignorant people who refuse to do so.

        • Beth

          >>Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do.<<

          That's THE. WHOLE. POINT. You are saying you are doing your research and that you know better than the consensus of modern scientists but you don't read actual scientific research and you admit that you wouldn't understand it if you did. Which is why you are not qualified to say that the people who DO the science and UNDERSTAND the science are wrong.
          Those scienitific papers you are not able to understand? They show that vaccines are safe and do not cause all the terrible things you think they do. They explain, with convincing evidence, why the various youtube videos you are posting are inaccurate and misleading.
          That's why you believe that vaccines are going to hurt you or your family. Because you are not educated enough or scientifically literate enough to understand the actual facts.
          You just admitted that you are not able to read and understand the scientific evidence – but you still think you somehow know better than the scientists. Do you not see the logic fail there?

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          So you don’t read the scientific evidence behind vaccines, and you couldn’t understand it if you did, but you felt the need to come and “educate” us?

        • Poogles

          “Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor [sic] over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do.”

          So you admit you haven’t read the “detailed scientific papers” nor would you understand them if you did. So why should we listen to you again?

          Also, you can’t even provide citations to papers you at least think support your case and then we can discuss the pros and cons of the study and see what we get? Or would that still be too difficult for you to understand?

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Dr. Suzanne Humphries is not a reliable source.

      • Camille

        I’ve heard that before. That’s always your answer to anyone you disagree with.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, it is always my answer when you post unreliable information from unreliable sources.

        • momofone

          Perhaps you’ve heard it before because there’s merit to it.

          Think about it this way: I keep saying these things to people and offering these sources, and I keep getting the same feedback. Obviously it’s all these people giving me this feedback who are mistaken.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I’ve heard that before. That’s always your answer to anyone you disagree with.

          Nah, not everyone we disagree with. Just those with whom we are familiar and know that they are full of it.

          Unfortunately, in the anti-vaxx world, there is a pretty small cast of characters that everyone points to, so we know all about them.

    • p sure ive accidentally injested more aluminium than has been in all my vaccines combined

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        Hope no one here drinks soda from a can. Think of all the aluminums!

        • momofone

          Does that mean I should stop eating the pop tops?

    • Nick Sanders
    • Bishop

      You have to be some kind of seriously stupid to post that Humphries crap here. What’s next? Boyd Haley’s chemtrail silliness?

  • Jake

    If a parent is wanting to avoid anti-vaxxers there is a currently a choice….homeschool. that its what this bill is asking of antivaxers. So the real debate is which group will have to homeschool there children?

    • Nick Sanders

      The group taking the pointless risk.

      Duh.

      • Wren

        Yep. The people willing to protect society’s most vulnerable get the reward of schools.

        • Megan

          Well put.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      The state has the right and responsibility to protect the children in their care.

    • JJ

      If anti-vaxers want to rebel against the global scientific consensus and not conform to society by helping others stay protected from disease, then THEY can bear the consequence of their decisions. You should not get the benefits of society if you opt out of participating to making it safe in sensible ways. Should you be able to drunk drive and I should just stay home to protect myself?

      • Nick Sanders

        Yep, you want to be an iconoclast, you don’t get to half-ass it just because it’s become an inconvenience. Put up or shut up.

  • Thank you for writing this. The hypocrisy is so strong with vaccine-deniers.

  • HippieSkeptic

    I have another one. Kid gets his first MMR, say it’s at age 4 (not the schedule I know, but just say). Blood draw a month later shows immunity to all three pathogens. Would they have to get the second MMR under sb 277?

    • Nick Sanders

      If they wanted to attend public school.

      • HippieSkeptic

        (It’s public and private school, for the record.) But they are immune to the diseases in question and pose no risk to any person at all. So why should they be required to get a second shot?

        • Who?

          Because that’s the rule. Their parents would also be well advised to drive on the correct side of the road to the appointment, for the same reason.

          Rugged individualists would of course want to go cross country to avoid using roads they didn’t want to pay for.

          • HippieSkeptic

            That’s not rational. It is rational to drive on the correct side of the road. It is not rational to give someone an injection neither they (nor anyone else) in fact needs because their immunity to the diseases in question has already been shown.

          • Who?

            You’ll be resorting to the patronising, lazy and shallow ‘common sense’ next. ‘Rational’ as used by someone who is at least sympathetic to the view that vaccines are more dangerous than the illnesses they protect against is almost as empty.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            It is very rational to give an extra shot.

            If you give an extra shot to everybody those that are not protected are highly likely to become protected and those that were protected are highly unlikely to have any side effect (apart from a sore arm).

            If you do titers: first you get a blood test (much more painful, especially for little children with small veins), then you get the results like one week after. If you are negative, you get the shot, if you are not you skip it. Ok, but 7% of the kids got two needles and all of them a painful one. Apart from that it takes at least two appointments, something that is simply not very practical
            I would like to hear from you which adverse reaction to the MMR is frequent or can happen if someone is already inmune to the disease and why.

          • Wren

            But it is rational to do a blood draw and test for titres on every child who is given a vaccine?

            A blood draw is generally more painful and traumatic for the child, the risks of vaccination are extremely small and I would hazard a guess that it is more cost effective to give a second dose of the vaccine than it is to test for titres.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Plus once you start adding in extra barriers to vaccination, the compliance rate is going to fall. That’s one of the reasons for having combined vaccines such as MMR – the simpler you can make the vaccination schedule, the less children will fall through the gaps.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I find it amazing that while anti-vaxxers complain about all the profits from vaccines for the manufacturers, others have no problem suggesting an absolute windfall for labs!

            Imagine all the blood testing businesses popping up if this were implemented. It would be like the car inspection places in Texas.

            Every pharmacy would put in a blood test machine. Talk about BigPharmacy!

          • Megan

            Especially considering MMR titers cost from $300-400 where I am. That’s a lot of money per kid when a booster only costs $100 (and its cheaper or even free at the state health department). That’s doesn’t even take into consideration that some kids who got titers would need a booster as well and would have both expenses.

          • Cobalt

            Blood draws have risks, too. Granted, they are typically miniscule, but anytime you poke something “straight into your bloodstream” (for real this time!), there’s a risk of excessive bleeding, bruising, infection, reaction to the adhesive on the bandage, etc.

            And blood draws on little kids aren’t easy for the kid, certainly much more difficult and painful than a vaccine. Vaccine injections usually use a narrower needle, too.

          • momofone

            Drawing titers is just not practical (for us, anyway). My son gets strep fairly frequently, and his pediatrician sends us to the hospital for blood draw and penicillin shot (I can’t remember why exactly–I think it’s because she doesn’t keep that dosage in her office). The first time was not too bad. The second time he was more apprehensive, but still mostly calm, until the penicillin needle went too far. The third time? He wasn’t getting out of the car. And he’s too big now for me to carry, so what options would that leave me? He’s fine with an injection, but I have to question whether someone arguing for blood draws has any actual experience with actual kids having them. Subjecting them to that (in my experience anyway) is a hell of a lot more traumatic than just giving the shot.

          • Poogles

            I agree completely! I would much, much rather get a IM shot than get blood drawn. I’ve never almost lost consciousness after a shot, but have (twice) after getting blood drawn.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Because the first shot is not enough. Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air? There is a reason for every vaccination, a reason for the timing and a reason for the number of doses.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Correct me if I am wrong on this. But the first MMR works 93 percent of the time. If it works, it works. But sometimes it does not. So they give a second one to catch the last 7 percent. (You’re not, like 93% immune to something. You is or you isn’t.) But if you know, and it is possible to know, that it worked the first time, why would the second one be required under this law?

          • Nick Sanders

            Because that 7% is a lot when you consider just how many millions of people you are talking about. And the herd immunity threshold is really high, somewhere between 92 and 95%, the second dose ensures that immunity rates are pushed over the threshold.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Oh, I totally get why they give the second shot overall. That other 7 percent of kids in the population. Totally. But if a specific known kid is known to have lab-confirmed immunity, then he should not need to have the second shot, right? His need for it is exactly zero, and his risk of side effects is higher than that.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because false positives happen.

          • HippieSkeptic

            I suppose, though now we’re really in the land of small small probabilities. I’m not going to delve into the accuracy of measles titers, but at least this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9077425) seems to say that false negatives are much more common. That seems like a number that’s extant but so small as to be irrelevant.

          • Nick Sanders

            Betcha they are still more common than serious adverse reactions among those who had one dose without problem already.

          • Montserrat Blanco

            If you are already inmune the rates of adverse reactions are neglible. Most of the vaccine adverse reactions (except the sore arm) happen in people that are not inmune to the disease. Most of them because you are building inmunity to the virus/bacteria involved. If you are already inmune and you get the vaccine your inmune system gets activated and attacks whatever is in the vaccine and that is the end of it.

          • Mike Stevens

            You also need the kid to have the inconvenience and expense of a blood draw.
            Just get the 2nd vaccine dose and be done with it i say

          • Megan

            His need is not zero because the immune response from a booster is more vigorous and longer lasting. (See the link I posted for you above) Just because he’s immune at one month doesn’t mean he will be by high school without the booster. This is why the vaccine is tested to see what the minimum number of doses is to achieve adequate immunity and how often boosting is necessary to maintain that. It is not random that five doses of Dtap are required but only two of MMR. Often there are studies done post market to see if the number of boosters could be reduced or if it needs to be more frequent.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Another thing, since you mention the herd immunity rates. I’ll give you three points and say it’s 95%. The PBE rate in CA is something like 2.5 percent (and falling). Add the medical exemption rate of .2 percent and you get 2.7 percent. So what’s the crisis, exactly? If herd immunity clicks in at 95% and we’re over 95% … why do we need such a bill?

          • Nick Sanders
          • JJ

            It is because the PBE rates are very high in some areas, not evenly distributed throughout the huge state, making pockets for disease to spread if introduced.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/27/californias-epidemic-of-vaccine-denial-mapped/

            http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27396612/data-vaccination-rates-at-california-elementary-schools

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Community immunity is not a statewide thing. It is very local. What good is a state rate of 95% going to do for you if your child goes to a school with 67% or a church with 80%?

          • Megan

            Because booster shots are also meant to ensure the length of time the immunity lasts is adequate. In this case two doses were found during initial studies of the vaccine to be the minimum number required to provide both adequate coverage (above herd immunity threshold) and coverage that in most cases lasts a lifetime. That’s why, for instance you could get a pertussis booster and be immune one month later (which you could prove with titers if they existed) but you still need boosters relatively frequently because studies of the vaccine show that coverage wanes after 2-3 years.

          • Megan

            See the graph on page 7 for a visual of how the immune response is more vigorous after a second dose of vaccine. Also this doc is just a good read to begin with.
            http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

          • Chris Preston

            Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air?

            Sadly most anti-vaxers do think this is the case. They also tend to suffer from the Nirvana fallacy.

            Either that or they think the schedule is some nefarious mind-control plot.

          • Camille

            “Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air?”

            That’s a good question. But, maybe they did this for simply more profits.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            So you do think they fabricate it out of thin air. Please supply proof for that claim.

          • Nick Sanders

            The vaccine companies don’t set the schedule. Try again.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The people who set the schedule do not make any money off vaccines. This is an extremely illogical assumption

        • Nick Sanders

          1. They are probably immune, not definitely immune.
          2. They made it just fine through the first shot, why should one more be a big deal?

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      The chances of a reaction to a second vaccine when you did not react to the first one is extremely unlikely. Even if you are immune after the first MMR the second will increase your response and reduce the possibility that it will wane. Even though I have been shown to be immune after a single MMR I got 42 years ago, if there was an outbreak in my area I would get another.

  • Camille

    What happened to Democrats being Pro Choice? They say a woman should have a right to say No for all things including sex and abortion, but they don’t believe she should have that right when it comes to putting toxic substances into her and her children’s bodies. That is unconscionable as well as tyrannical.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      You can save the hyperbole, since it makes it difficult to take you seriously. You have to be extraordinarily privileged to pretend that contributing to public health is “tyranny.”

      And no amount of pretending makes anything in vaccines toxic. You’re flat out wrong and you won’t take even the smallest steps to correct your ignorance. YOU are the only thing dangerous in this situation, not vaccines.

      • Camille

        Did you hear that Senator Pan lied and said the Pope was for forced vaccination. These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into the Pope’s mouth. Incredible!~

        “As a California Assemblyman, Pan sponsored legislation lowering standards for abortion facilities in 2013. He and Allen in tandem falsely asserted the Catholic Church supports their contentious legislation.

        “I believe there was a quote from the pope,” Pan said, “who I believe is the leader of the Catholic Church, saying that he believes in forced vaccination.”

        https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-vatican-backs-mandatory-vaccination-because-there-are-no-fetal-cells-in

        • yugaya

          “the Pope was for forced vaccination. These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into the Pope’s mouth. Incredible!~”

          Mandatory childhood vaccination schedule ≠ forced vaccination.

        • Mike Stevens

          Are you in the habit of spreading deliberate lies?
          Pan never said the Pope believes in “forced vaccination”.
          See the transcripts.
          http://www.whatthefolly.com/2015/05/05/transcript-ca-sen-joel-andersons-qa-on-sb-277-before-the-senate-judiciary-committee-april-28-2015/

          Now it may be that someone misheard “supports vaccination” as “forced vaccination”, but it is clear what Pan actually said.
          Please do not misquote him again.

          • Chris Preston

            So anti vaccine liars lie? Who would have guessed.

          • Wren

            These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into a senator’s mouth.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Do you like to be lied to?

        • Chris Preston

          This looks like one of those ‘pants on fire’ moments for you.

          Perhaps it is time to apologise?

          • momofone

            I’m sure an apology won’t be necessary (or forthcoming); as on a previous post, Camille’s quotes and attributions can be sloppy and half-assed, and we aren’t supposed to let that get in the way of our blind acceptance of her claims.

    • Nick Sanders

      Toxic? Oh lordy…

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      There is nothing in vaccines at a toxic dose

      • Camille

        Thimerosol, Aluminum, Polysorbate 80, Formaldehyde etc. etc. ad nauseum, and yes, at toxic doses.

        • Wren

          Toxic doses? Your evidence for that statement is?

          What is the toxic dose of say formaldehyde, as that was covered pretty well already? How much is in a vaccine? Pick the routine vaccine of your choice.

        • Mike Stevens

          A baby’s liver produces more formaldehyde in a day than it would get taking the entire vax schedule.
          Are you going to advocate neonates get operations to excise their livers at birth, to stop them dying from formaldehyde toxicity?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, not at a toxic dose. Also, thimerosal is only in some multidose flu shots to prevent contamination like happened in Mexico. Aluminum salts, not aluminum. Aluminum salts have a lower toxicity than vinegar. Formaldehyde is not an ingredient it is used to inactivate pathogens and toxins then filtered out of the final product as much as possible without changing the efficacy of the vaccine. Polysorbate 80? Seriously? No, you are just wrong. There is nothing at a toxic dose in vaccines.

          • Bugsy

            Yep. If the vaccine ingredients are in toxic doses as Camille has suggested, wouldn’t vaccines be killing all of us immediately?

        • momofone

          Please provide your credible source for this claim. Natural News/Joe Mercola/Dr. Tenpenny/Gary Null/etc. are not credible sources.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          If formaldehyde in vaccines is at a toxic level, how does anyone ever survive eating a pear?

    • JJ

      You have have the choice to homeschool.

    • Montserrat Blanco

      You can homeschool. You can send them to a private school where vaccination is not compulsory. You can even move to another country. You are free to do as you want but you are not free to send your unvaxxed kids to a public school. You are not free to smoke inside a restaurant. You are not free to defecate in other people’s doorstep. It is a free country but that does not mean you do not have to abide to some rules. And yes, sometimes democracy has this things, sometimes a president you do not like gets elected, sometimes a law you do not like gets approved… As it is a free country you can at least write about your disappointment in a blog and try to convince other people that the law is wrong.

      • JJ

        Yes! The no smoking laws! More proof that public health laws make sense. Like smoking, you can do so in your home but if you want to smoke in a public place it is not the non-smokers problem. If anti-vaxers want to not vaccinate then they get to homeschool and have less access to public places (school). Besides, don’t public schools teach pro-vax propaganda?

        • Bugsy

          It’s an interesting parallel. I don’t remember much regarding smoking laws being passed – I was a kid when most of the ones near us passed, and I grew up in a family of non-smokers. However, my guess is that the outcry from smokers on those laws was somewhat similar to the outcry from anti-vaxxers regarding SB 277. “My body, my choice!!!”

          • Megan

            It was just like that. It is a great parallel.

          • Poogles

            “the outcry from smokers on those laws was somewhat similar to the outcry from anti-vaxxers”

            Oh yes. And the outright denial when you try to point out that their action endangers the health of those around them.

    • Megan

      Why assume we are democrats? I know many republicans who are pro-vax. Intelligence does cross party lines you know. you shouldn’t assume to know our political leanings (or that we are even U.S. citizens).

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Intelligence does cross party lines you know

        WHAT? People who vote differently from me might be intelligent? A ridiculous claim! (The US is having a little problem with polarization right now and while I’m being sarcastic I do wonder sometimes if there aren’t people out there that believe something like that.)

      • Nick Sanders

        Hell, there are even some libertarians running around here. And they’re on board with this too.

        Plus, I sorta doubt I’m the only one here who is only a “Democrat” because the Greens are too in love with woo (anti-nuclear power, anti-GMO? keep walking buddy) and the other genuinely leftist American parties couldn’t put together a proper campaign if their lives depended on it.

    • Andrew Lazarus

      There has never been a choice to bring communicable diseases into public space and everyone from Libertarians to Communists seems to understand this. Only the Narcissists get left out.

  • Nick Sanders
    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Wow. I didn’t think it had a snowball’s chance in hell, but apparently people in California are tired of hosting disease.

      • JJ

        I am pleasantly surprised that is is passing as well. This Californian is very excited!

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Now if only Big Naturopathy doesn’t keep it from passing the house or pressure the governor to veto, you might start getting your infectious disease problems under control. No more children being admitted to the hospital with measles! (Well, fewer. I note that there was a “compromise” loophole inserted that will allow some parents to get away with leaving their children vulnerable to infectious diseases and cancer.)

      • Camille

        But, we love to host autism, allergies, asthma, autoimmune deficiencies…and that is just the “A’s” Courtesy of vaccines.

        • Mishimoo

          See, my sister had pretty bad asthma. Caught up on her vaccines and it’s gone. I have two joint disorders and some odd allergies, same thing. Caught up on my vaccines and I feel better than ever + I hardly have hayfever any more. Also, I thought you gave up on reaching us with your pseudoscience like two days ago?

          • Who?

            I’m sure you’ll find that your experiences are mere anecdote, not worth noticing or mentioning, whereas Camille’s experiences, and those of her internet friends, are profound, powerful and compelling reasons for doing whatever it is Camille believes in this week.

            Great news re the Bill, btw.

            Good to know you’re all up to date.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Vaccination against specific antigens is one method of reducing severe respiratory allergies (i.e. “allergy shots”). The basic idea, as I understand it (and bear in mind that I’m not an allergist), is that you convince the immune system to make IgG antibodies against the allergen and that downregulates other antibody classes, including IgE.

          • Mishimoo

            I’m seriously considering it if my housedust allergy ever makes a return because it seems like a logical idea and much easier than taking antihistamines regularly.

        • Mike Stevens

          Proof that any of those are linked by scientific evidence to vaccination?
          Peer -reviewed science publications only, please, and not isolated cherry-picked items but a totality of the evidence on the topics please.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          1. How can “vaccines”, which are no more alike than “medicine” or “supplements” cause anything?
          2. Assuming one or more vaccines causes some health problem, why would it cause such a number of diverse health problems? What mechanism of action could possibly cause all those problems?

          3. I’m generally very happy when my patients are autoimmune deficient. It’s when they’ve got a sufficient number of autoimmune problems that things get difficult.

    • Megan

      I just wish it hadn’t gotten watered down with a 10 vaccine limit and ainer grandfathering clause. I guess they had to appease the ignorant a little to get it to pass at all.

      • Megan

        *and a liberal grandfathering clause. Damned autocorrect…

  • HippieSkeptic

    I came across this this morning, and it put me through a mental exercise.

    Here’s the story:

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-09-17-2472804019_x.htm

    Basically, the pneumonia vaccine Prevnar eliminated certain bacteria, therefore opening up an ecological niche for another drug-resistant bug to fill. Now, I don’t believe Prevnar is on the list of shots for SB 277, so ok. But just as a kind of brain exercise. If I give my kid a Prevnar shot to protect the vulnerable kid next door from pneumonia, that’s great, right? Good for me. But then, two years later, the vulnerable kid across the street gets a drug resistant infection and gets very very sick. So did that medical intervention help someone? Or hurt someone?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      There is no such thing as a world without health threats. As soon as we eliminate one, another comes along. We face them as they come, so that we can survive to face the next one. The alternative is to give up and die.

      • HippieSkeptic

        But yet it’s worth a major intrusion into people’s right to make medical decisions—what many would call a fundamental, essential human right—to, to what? To go from a world with health threats to … a world with health threats?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          A world with health threats, some of which are completely unnecessary and only there because some people couldn’t be bothered to do a simple act that would eliminate them, or one with only those health threats that can not yet be eliminated. Which would you rather have? I’m grateful to prior generations for their willingness to be vaccinated against small pox so I don’t have to worry about either the disease or the vaccine. Shouldn’t I be ready to do the same to eliminate measles, rubella, and polio?

          The article to me reads like an argument for a better vaccine, not an argument to not vaccinate. Get rid of the drug resistant strain that’s causing the problem–without the need to give any antibiotics.

        • Nick Sanders

          “But yet it’s worth a major intrusion into people’s right to make medical decisions”

          It’s not a major intrusion.

          • HippieSkeptic

            If it’s important to that person, it’s a major intrusion. I might think birth control is no big thing, but to force it on someone else, that’s a big thing. Even making someone take aspirin so they can get an education, that’s a big deal. Giving someone an injection, which may be safe enough in the aggregate, but dangerous for that particular person .. it’s a big deal.

          • Nick Sanders

            No one is being forced to get the injection. Although honestly, a general mandate would not bother me in the least.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            If it’s important to that person, it’s a major intrusion.

            yow, that’s a slippery slope. If having others vaccinated is important to me, can I then claim that anti-vaxxers are causing an intrusion? And then someone claims I am an intrusion, and the next thing you know, everything is an intrusion to someone. At that point, the concept is meaningless.

          • MaineJen

            If getting vaccinated is truly dangerous for you (like, say, you are undergoing chemotherapy), you get a medical exemption. If you don’t qualify for a medical exemption…maybe there’s a reason. That reason is: the disease itself is more risky than the vaccine.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but do you have those numbers? Like, what are the risks of death, shock, seizures, and screaming, respectively, for a pertussis shot? I know the numbers are low, but has anyone got the specifics?

          • Nick Sanders
          • HippieSkeptic

            So 1 in 14,000 have seizures. 1 in 1,000 with the insane crying. And call it 16 a year (given about 4 million kids born, who get 4 shots of dtap in their first year) die or have brain damage. I know that you can’t get very statistically good with such small numbers, but 1 in a million seems ok to use. For those 16 parents, this really happened to them. Or the parents with the seizures or the screaming. You don’t have to be crazy as a parent to think “Please, state, don’t make me do that again.”

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But the risk of dying from the disease is HIGHER. What’s the benefit of preventing a prolonged crying episode only to end up dying from the disease the vaccine was supposed to prevent?

            Your argument is like insisting that you won’t buckle your children into car seats because of the risk that they won’t be able to get out of the car in the event that it catches fire in an accident. It doesn’t make much sense.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Well, they’ve already had one dose of whatever shot it is, so they have a 93 % chance (in the case of MMR) of being protected anyway. And yes, they are relying on herd immunity and the fact that a lot of people DON’T die of measles. So the devil you don’t know starts looking a lot more attractive. And I can really understand that. I think a lot of people could. (Remember, my hypothetical parent here isn’t the parent of a vaccine-naive kid, they’re the parent of a vaccine-reactive kid.) Or, to take your example. If your first kid through some kind freak accident got trapped in the car by their seatbelt and drowned, you sure would feel some strange conflicting feelings everything you buckled the seatbelt.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            The beauty of human intelligence is that we can understand something even if it isn’t right in front of us. If the risk of death is higher from not being vaccinated than from the vaccine, what difference does it make what you see?

            As parents we constantly make decisions that are children don’t like at the time because of the long term benefit. Taking a child to the dentist when he is afraid of the dentist is extremely unpleasant. It would be much easier to avoid the scene altogther and skip the dentist, but as parents we know that it would be far worse to let their teeth decay. The same principle applies to vaccines.

          • HippieSkeptic

            But on the flip side of the dentist argument, if a parent was feeding their kids Cheetos and Mountain Dew all day long, potentially harming them and exposing them to many many long term risks, the state would not withhold that child’s right to an education—we wouldn’t do anything at all.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You’re missing the point. The point is that sometimes a parent has to watch a child suffer to prevent a greater harm down the road. Do you understand? Do you agree or disagree?

          • HippieSkeptic

            Sometimes, sure. But I can’t agree to applying that in every case. Parents might beat the crap out of their kids to avoid harm down the road (in their minds). That doesn’t make it right. Or, a milder example. a parent might drive their kid super hard on piano lessons because that will make him better in the future and it backfires and the kid hates piano and hates his parents. I think you can look at that a bunch of different ways.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because the kid’s bad teeth don’t put the other children in the school at risk.

          • HippieSkeptic

            I knew there was something incomplete about the dentist argument. Right o. So it takes us back to the abortion argument I raised earlier. If overpopulation is an issue of public health and national security, as it was in China, and the state consequently then limits people’s ability to reproduce and make decisions about their bodies and families, well, we don’t think that’s very great at all. Here too, you’re talking about public health and other people being at risk and consequent forced medical interventions to protect them. And so, for me, it doesn’t sit right.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I knew there was something incomplete about the dentist argument. Right o.

            So instead of just throwing a bunch of shit against the wall and hoping something sticks, why not stop and think a little bit?

            From an observer standpoint, it’s very clear that you really haven’t thought about any of this all that much, and are just throwing out a bunch of ignorant “well what about this….” scenarios.

          • Nick Sanders

            The issue has nothing to do with feelings, it’s a matter of public safety. Much like it doesn’t matter how individuals feel about speed limits or building codes.

          • HippieSkeptic

            In theory you’re right, but the framework of the debate has been “protect the immunocompromised.” They’re an edge case, since their numbers are relatively small, and they’re protected anyway, since vaccine levels in CA are sufficient for herd immunity as we’ve said elsewhere. (Or, you could argue, they’ll never be fully protected no matter what. Not sure where I fall on that one.) But eitherhow, the push for approval has been an emotional one — take care of the people who cannot take care of themselves. But if we are to have feelings about that set of people, ought we not also have feelings about another set of people? (Who are also an edge case, it should be said.) Both parties are afraid of a real but unlikely situation.

          • Nick Sanders

            “since vaccine levels in CA are sufficient for herd immunity as we’ve said elsewhere.”

            Except they aren’t:
            http://www.healthline.com/health-news/measles-spreads-in-california-due-to-unvaccinated-kids-012315

            According to a recent study published in the journal Pediatrics, about 3 percent of California’s population opts out of the recommended vaccination schedules. But they are not spread evenly across the state.
            In certain areas of California, unvaccinated children make up more than 20 percent of the child population.

            http://www.trbimg.com/img-5407ab85/turbine/la-me-school-vaccines-20140903

            https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/01/vaccines21.png&w=1484

          • momofone

            Well, sure. But feelings are not facts, and are not reliable in many decisions, seatbelt use among them.

          • HippieSkeptic

            The seatbelt argument. About that. If your seatbelt malfunctions and hurts or kills you, you (or your heirs) can choose to never buy a Ford again. You can sue the pants off Ford. If a lot of people are injured, they can do a class action kind of lawsuit. This is very expensive for Ford! So Ford has a major incentive to make sure its seatbelts are absolutely as safe safe safe as possible. Same with a drug. If the drug causes problems or if the company conceals research (and we know there’s already a problem with companies not publishing negative results), you can sue, you can stop taking the drug, whatever. BUT. And btw here let me say that I think that vaccines are an amazing technology. Salk is a hero. The men and women who work in that industry are smart, caring, diligent, they walk their dogs and they read to their kids. They are good people. But for vaccines, unlike for seatbelts or drugs, if you have a reaction, or if you get a contaminated lot, the company is completely protected. You cannot sue them. Again, this doesn’t make the people who work there bad or malfeasant, but it does make the incentives for the vaccine division as an entity are a little bit different than the incentives for the drug division or for the car company. That’s not heebie-jeebie conspiracy anything, that’s just market forces at work. (Or rather, in this case, not at work.) It means that the drug company — no matter how excellent its researchers and staff — is not incentivized to create a product that’s absolutely as safe as possible. Just a product that’s safe enough.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Ford has extremely good lawyers. Sue Ford and what you’re likely to get is stuck with the court costs. Ford did not redesign the Pinto because they estimated that the potential lawsuits would cost them less than the redesign. The court system favors the wealthy. OTOH, if you even think that something bad that happened to you might be related to a vaccine, you can get compensated with relatively little fuss.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Who do you sue if your child dies or is seriously injured because a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child and your child becomes ill with the condition that their child is carrying? Who will compensate the parents of infants who die of vaccine preventable illnesses because other parents decided that their children needed to be “pure” and that that purity was more important than another child’s life?

          • HippieSkeptic

            The thing with seat belts is this. If your seatbelt goes wrong and hurts or kills you, you or your heirs can sue Ford or refuse to buy Ford cars any more. If a regular drug hurts or kill you, you or your heirs can sue the manufacturer or refuse to take the drug any more. So Ford and the drug company have some good motivations to make their products as safe as possible. But vaccines are not like that. (And here let me say that I think they are an amazing technology and that Salk is a hero. The men and women who work to make vaccines every day are good smart people who walk their dogs and read to their kids and they are helping people.) With vaccines however, you cannot sue the manufacturer. And under this law, you cannot stop using them. Now, we already know that there is a problem with companies failing to publish negative results. It stands to reason that a vaccine manufacture would a) also not publish negative results and b) that they have an incentive to make a product that’s pretty good but not as good as it can possibly be. That’s not any kind of conspiracy heebie-jeebies. That’s just the effect of (or rather, absence of) market forces. Given those circumstances, it seems wrong to make their product mandatory.

          • Beth

            You know what? If someone had lost their child that way in a freak accident I would totally understand them having misgivings about putting seatbelts on their children forever after. It would be irrational but totally understandable.
            What I don’t accept is someone who doesn’t want to put a seatbelt on their child because someone’s kid somewhere once died that way or because they heard someone’s kid did, or because they can imagine that a kid *might* conceivably die that way and they just don’t want to chance it. That is irrational and NOT understandable. And that’s what the antivaxxers are doing.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Incidentally, if you’re in a car that goes into the water you’re more likely to survive if you were wearing a seatbelt when the car went in because you’re more likely to be uninjured and able to climb out before it goes under completely.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The risk of insane crying and febrile seizures is much higher with a natural infection

          • HippieSkeptic

            Yep, sure. Agree. But that’s not what that particular parent saw.

          • Nick Sanders

            And?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Okay, but the best way to go about it is to explain to the parent that the best thing to do is vaccinate. Not to just say, okay here is an exemption.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Yes, you are totally right. And that is what ab 2109 did in CA. To get a personal belief exemption, you have to have a meeting with your doctor and talk about it. And the rate of PBEs has dropped 20% since it was enacted. To me that seems like a correct degree of examination and information delivery.

          • Nick Sanders

            And if that actually were a correct amount, the Disneyland outbreak would have been prevented through higher vaccination rates. But it wasn’t so clearly stronger measures need to be taken.

          • HippieSkeptic

            Well, let’s think about that. The strain that caused the outbreak was from the Philippines. Now, what’s the portion of international visitors to Disneyland? Well, for Disneyworld it’s about 20 % so let’s use that for Disneyland. Furthermore, the rates of vaccination in LA county and that area are very very high (I’m guessing many other visitors are local). Well, that’s 20ish percent of visitors to Disneyland with unknown vaccination status. Even if every state in the country passed SB 277, your risk of outbreaks at Disneyland would still be pretty high. Might be lower than it is now, but I don’t think by a lot (given that we’re only taking about 2.5 percent of US people who would get their additional shots overall). So to prevent outbreaks, shouldn’t we make entry to Disneyland contingent on vaccination status? (And, frankly, if you’re immune compromised, going to Disneyland is not a great idea even if the whole world has their measles shots.)

          • Nick Sanders

            Except the Disneyland outbreak didn’t just stay at Disneyland. It spread out into the rest of the state and neighboring states.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            At least one Philippine measles strain has been bouncing around the USA since 2013, when an unvaccinated Amish missionary brought it back as a souvenir. Largest measles outbreak of 2013-14.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, let’s compare those to the numbers of what happens with actual pertussis infections.

          • JJ

            YES! It’s like the diseases have no side effects, only the vaccines!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            A child who has a seizure after the DTP has a medical exemption from that vaccine from then on. The state doesn’t “make” those parents give the child that shot again.

          • HippieSkeptic

            I’m not so sure about that. It’s state by state as we’ve said downthread, and seizures don’t necessarily count toward a PME because they’re a “normal” reaction. But happy to see an example to the contrary.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Reference?

          • HippieSkeptic

            This is the West Virginia info — I’m not going to go through every state. http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/oeps/immunization/Pages/MedEx.aspx
            From this it’s unclear if seizures would count as “allergic” or “normal.” I suspect they would count as normal. And if one kid in a family died of a vaccine (rare, but happens) it’s not clear if a second kid would be exempt, since that probably counts as “family history.” But if you have examples of kids with seizure reactions getting PMEs, happy to see it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Seizures would count as a serious adverse event.

          • MaineJen

            …screaming?

          • Nick Sanders

            HS has said that making the child uncomfortable is a valid reason not to continue vaccinations.

          • MaineJen

            FFS. A few moments of discomfort (I tell my kids it’s going to hurt about as much as a bee sting, but the pain will go away much more quickly) is not worth a lifetime without VPIs? Are we being serious right now?

          • Nick Sanders

            More or less. She’s said that seeing a kid cry can make a parent worry, and that’s a legitimate reason for the parent to have second thoughts that we must respect.

          • Mike Stevens

            I am a utilitarian.
            My philosophy here is a teleological one, not a deontological one.

          • HippieSkeptic

            I’m not sure what you mean, but I had to look those words up and I like them!

          • Mike Stevens
        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          It’s not a major intrusion. It’s certainly less of an intrusion than insisting your child go to school for 12 years.

    • Mike Stevens

      Did you go to the source study?
      Basically, the elimination of around 60% of the usual pneumococcal srotypes has seen one of the remaining serotypes become slightly commoner, by a few percent overall.
      Still a huge win for the vaccine.

      • HippieSkeptic

        It’s still a pretty interesting thought experiment, epidemiologically.

        • JJ

          I believe this falls under the nirvana fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

          No medical intervention is perfect but vaccines save lives. If researchers track unfavorable outcomes with a vaccine then they will intervene on that when the time comes. In the meantime, I am glad that I at least don’t have to worry about my loved ones dying from a growing list of vaccine preventable diseases.

        • Mike Stevens

          Similar thought experiment.
          A terrorist has wired a bomb to blow up in a football stadium with 100,000 people in it blow up, which would kill about 50 people, and maim hundreds more.
          However, you can inactivate this bomb, but only if you fire a gunshot at random into the crowd, in which your own kids are sitting somewhere.
          What do you do?

          • Who?

            HS goes to live where no one plays football.

            Obviously. Or aren’t you privileged enough to be able to do the same?

          • Nick Sanders

            “where no one plays football”
            Where is this blessed utopia?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Note that the gunshot won’t necessarily hit anyone and if it hits someone won’t necessarily kill or seriously injure them. Most gunshots in this context result in someone being seriously annoyed when the shot grazes their skin slightly. But the possibility that someone might be killed is there.

    • Mike Stevens

      ” the vulnerable kid across the street gets a drug resistant infection”
      In fact there is some good evidence vaccination against pneumococcus is linked to less antibiotic resistance, not more. It seems that vaccination helps eliminate strains that are resistant to beta lactam antibiotics (eg penicillin, amoxicillins, cephalosporins)
      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X13006300

  • Camille

    Here: Everyone needs to watch this film: Silent Epidemic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1m3TjokVU4

    • Mathi Bear

      Watch an almost 2 hour video? No. If you have a point to make you can summarize it.

    • Chris Preston

      A film made by Gary Null, a purveyor of useless dietary supplements?

      No I don’t think I will bother.

      Now if you found a film about vaccines that featured leading medical researchers, I might be interested in that.

    • Monkey professor for a head

      You might have better luck persuading people if you post links to actual scientific research published in reputable journals.

    • Sue

      There is no “untold story” – the science of vaccination is open, if you are able and willing to understand it.

    • Megan

      The fact that you continue to post this kind of crap shows that you: a) have no idea how to identify a scientific source, b) don’t know where to look for one, or c) are willfully ignorant. Or a combination of the above. I even told you where to look for a scientific research paper (pubmed) but you declared that not credible, which is downright laughable. Or perhaps you looked there but could not find any sources to support your position? Nah, that takes a lot more work than posting misquotes, antivax blog articles or YouTube videos.

      • Camille

        Gee, Megan, I told you the other day that I was ribbing you by claiming pubmed was not credible, yet you don’t put that explanation on your post but use it as an excuse to discredit me. Your ad hominem attacks are pathetic attempts to keep people from looking at the other side of the vaccine debate: that they can have very real side effects to them and can be deadly, and if not deadly, can cause serious harm.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          And still you have not posted anything evidence from a reputable source to support your position. If you genuinely want to convince people that vaccines are as harmful as you say, proving it with real evidence would be the first place to start. But since you have repeatedly ignored calls to do so, I’m getting the impression that you either have no evidence or you gave no idea what constitutes a reputable source (or the ever increasing possibility that you are a troll who just enjoys stirring shit).

          • Camille

            I think the video above is a good place for people to get that evidence. But, anything that goes counter to your pro-vaccine agenda you will call not credible, so why bother. I am not out to convince you. That would be impossible as you have swallowed the Kool Aid. But, for others that might come over here who are not convinced, please watch the video.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            So you have real evidence but you don’t want to link to it as we wouldn’t believe you anyway? Or that video is the best “evidence” you have?

            So why are you bothering to post here? Do you think you’re going to change anyone’s mind without posting real evidence for your point of view? Or are you just trolling?

          • momofone

            I’m placing my bet on all of the above.

        • Megan

          There is no “other side” to be debate because science overwhelmingly supports vaccines. The “other side” is fabricated out of ignorance by antivaxxers.

        • Megan

          And if you truly do think pubmed is credible why don’t you cute some scientific papers supporting your position?

          • Megan

            *cite

    • Bugsy

      Thanks, but I’ve learned over time to not take seriously documentaries…on any side of an issue. I could make one stating that cats cause cancer, and if it looks legitimate enough, people will believe it…

      (Nothing against the precious kitty in my lap right now, of course!)

  • Amazed

    Hmm, let me translate what a rude commenter wrote under an article here (a few days ago, we were graced with the wisdom of internet mamas insisting that “the doctor should consider whether the child needs vaccines or not”. That’s called taking each case individually, if you don’t know.

    “What pampered brats you are! In less than 50 years you’ve become so spoiled that now you have no idea what it’s like to shake with horror each time your child develops a fever and pray it isn’t something that’ll send them to the grave in ten or so days.”

    So rude and so true,

    • Megan

      It is so true. Antivaxxers have no idea how horrible meningitis, epiglotitis, diphtheria, and many other VPI’s are. If they did, they would never skip a vaccine. They are fortunate that others are vaccinating their own children and thus, protecting the children of antivaxxers.

      • Sue

        I trained at a time when HiB epiglottitis was still a scary reality. Kids who looked sick and were quiet and drooling had to be handled with great care, not upset, not made to lie down in case they might occlude their airway. They went very quietly to operating suite for an inhalational induction.

        Since the 1980’s, with vaccination, HiB epiglottitis is essentially gone from our communities. No change in sanitation or nutrition, no change in standard of living, just the vax.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Not just epiglottitis. Since widespread Hib vaccinations primary sinus infections in young children are almost unheard of.

          • Empliau

            I read somewhere that the first sinus infection is frequently the gateway to others. As someone who has seriously expletived up sinuses, I would like the person who may have spared generations this scourge to get the Nobel prize. Possibly a whole series of Nobel prizes.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Meaning, among other things, fewer children taking antibiotics and selecting their normal flora for antibiotic resistance. Hmm…wonder if we could vaccinate cows against Hib and eliminate the need for feed lot antibiotics?

      • Bugsy

        They’re also fortunate that _their_ parents had them vaccinated against these diseases. I have my suspicion that many/most anti-vaxxers had the privileged of being vaccinated during their own youth…

  • JJ

    From Dr. Bob Sears today:
    “DR. BOB’S DAILY:
    NOT ONLY IS IT TIME TO LEAVE CALIFORNIA – IT’S TIME TO LEAVE THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
    Mandatory vaccines for all public school attendees with sharpers restrictions on medical exemptions – nationwide.”
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Bob-Sears/116317855073374?fref=nf

    More “threats” of leaving.

    • Bugsy

      They should colonize the island in the South Pacific that Crazy Lactivist’s husband wanted to move to last year…

      • Amazed

        And take CL and her potential disease-transmitting family along, huh?

        • Bugsy

          Please!!!!!!!!!

      • Camille

        Man, that would probably paradise on that island. No fascist telling people that they had to get their shots.

        • Sarah

          Off you go, then.

        • mola2alex

          Soon to be overrun with disease making all the fools extinct.

        • Megan

          Yup you’d be free to get all the mosquito born infectious diseases you want. You know, since you wouldn’t have the vaccines….

      • Since most of the “advanced” First World countries require vaccination these days [with far less exceptions permitted than the US] it may be difficult to find somewhere sufficiently comfortable to live which allows an immigrant to skip inoculations. This is particularly true in countries with nationalized health care systems.

        • Bugsy

          But not in the all-natural fantasyland…

    • momofone

      That brings to mind the old question “is that a threat or a promise?”

    • LibrarianSarah

      Don’t let the door hit you on the way out Bob.

      • Amazed

        Why? He needs someone to aim a kick at his behind. Lord knows that the AAP won’t do it, so I’d settle for the door.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I agree. Can we start a GoFundMe campaign to raise funds to help him leave?

        • Nick Sanders

          Because then we have to wash the door.

    • Megan

      I am glad to see there is a federal bill proposed though. As far as Dr. Bob? He, and doctors like him who willfully ignore scientific evidence make me very sad. Especially with the amount of media presence he has. He’s no better than Dr. Oz. Clearly they don’t take their hypocratic oath very seriously.

      • Megan

        Oops, that was supposed to say hippocratic.

      • Camille

        What federal bill are you talking about? The one that would force all Americans to get a shot whenever the government says so. Did you hear about what happened in Mexico over the weekend? 75% of kids got ill with the vaccine shot. 2 died. What do you have to say about that?

        • JJ
          • JJ

            (I do think the Mexico story is tragic)

        • yugaya

          Same kind of hysteria happened here where I live in the next country a few years ago. Three babies were reported to have died from vaccines at the same time. The vaccination was halted and the investigation was ordered and went public with results: two babies died from conditions that had nothing to do with vaccines, and one was ruled out because the death was the consequence of previously diagnosed congenital heart condition.

          All three cases are still in VAERS though.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          That was human error. There was nothing wrong with the vaccine when it was manufactured. It got contaminated by bacteria. Which is something that could be avoided by preserving it.

          • Wren

            You mean like putting all those unneeded terrible chemicals in it?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            This is a very poor and hard to access area that doesn’t even have full electrical coverage. No one outside of this area had a problem. It was probably a storage problem. Thimerosal would have saved these children.

        • Megan

          What happened in Mexico was a tragedy but not a fsult of unsafe vaccines, rather unsafe vaccine handling. And yes, I am talking about the federal bill which I’d be very much in support of. I don’t know why this is a surprise to you since Ive been obviously pro-vax from the start.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          And what happened after this event? The Mexican government immediately suspended the suspect vaccination program and began an investigation into the cause, examining all aspects of the program including the vaccine. How is this consistent with the supposed cover up of vaccine risks?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Not to mention it was all over the news because vaccine injuries are extremely rare.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            True. If the problem were the vaccines per se and not the handling of the vaccines or other side issues, this problem would have occurred long ago and these vaccines would have been junked by now.

    • Sue

      Dear Dr Bob and other disaffected Californians:

      PLEASE DON’T MIGRATE TO AUSTRALIA.

      • Who?

        Yes it’s terrible here, please don’t come. You can’t get tax breaks for your kids if you refuse to vax them. We’re constantly overrun by kangaroos (which are far meaner than they look) and venomous critters. The seasons are the wrong way around. We drove the appalling whatshername Tenpenny from our shores by appealing to the business instincts of venues which had intended to host her, and we’re proud of that.

        Dr Bob etc would hate it here and should stay away.

        • Mishimoo

          And the chlamydia-carrying koalas like to pee on annoying humans. (It’s not a zoonotic strain, I looked it up the other day while explaining it to someone) Plus we have frogs in toilets, snakes anywhere they can fit, and big spiders.

          • Monkey professor for a head

            Also the worlds only venomous mammal, and psychotic magpies. Especially the magpies

          • Who?

            Are you thinking of the echidna, which is in fact a monotreme?

          • Chris Preston

            That would be the platypus. The echidna has no venom, just spines. The platypus and echidna belong to an order of mammals.

          • Monkey Professor For a Head

            The platypus – also a monotreme, but I think it’s still counts as a mammal as it lactates. The males have venomous spurs behind their hind legs. Although a quick Wikipedia search just told me that there are several species of venomous shrews.

          • Mishimoo

            The platypus! With their venomous spurs.

            Echidnas are so cute, I love them. Except when I’m napping while my husband drives and wake up as he’s swerving to avoid a spiky brown lump in the road. Luckily it was just a dead wallaby and we didn’t crash.

          • Who?

            My bad!!

          • Mishimoo

            Hey, everything else is out to kill us 😛

          • Who?

            Our recent english visitors said much the same thing-venomous or flatout mean was their verdict on our wildlife.

            They found the people lovely though.

          • Bugsy

            Have you read Bryson’s “In a Sunburned Country”? Hysterical!

          • Who?

            I did, he’s very funny. We all take this stuff so much for granted it’s delightful to see others’ take on it.

            Billie Connolly used to do a pretty funny spiel on Australia’s deadly inhabitants, too.

          • Mishimoo

            They just want to be loved! Hahahaha

            I regularly have baby magpies learning to feed themselves in the front garden, and their parents sneak them around the back to steal the dog food. They’re pretty sweet if you’re nice to them.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            I’ve just heard of too many people being knocked off of their bikes by territorial magpies! I just stay out of their way. 🙂

          • Mishimoo

            We had one relocated for that exact reason. After his tree was chopped down, he decided to vent his wrath on the customers at the local car dealership and swooped everyone on their way into the office.

            I just have a soft spot for them in spite of their territorial behaviour because they sing so sweetly and eat some of the bugs in my garden. (And my youngest was born to the sound of their song – there were lots of them outside the hospital.)

          • Who?

            You need to get some zip ties and put them through the holes in your helmet so the long ends stick up. The magpies strike at those.

            Butcher birds are pretty bad news too, dad has a four stitches scar on his bald pate courtesy of a territorial butcher bird.

          • Nick Sanders

            There’s actually a small number of venomous mammals, but platypus venom is by far the most potent.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venomous_mammal

          • Bugsy

            Hehe, I loved the koala I held at a zoo in the Gold Coast back in 2010…I hope she didn’t have chlamydia, though!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            The koala I held tried to pick my pocket. I have a picture to prove it.

            (actually, it was really funny. I had my credit card in my shirt pocket while standing in line, and I told my wife, “I better take that out – this is probably a scam to steal stuff from my pocket.”

            Sure enough, when you look at the picture, the koala’s got his hand in my pocket. When you go back and watch the video we took, you can see that the handler put it there.)

          • Bugsy

            Lol, that’s one crafty koala/handler!! 🙂

          • Mishimoo

            The current hypothesis is that all of them have chlamydia and it may act as a population control method to cull the weak, as it doesn’t appear to negatively impact on their health without an external factor such as habitat loss.

          • Bugsy

            Wow, I had no idea.

          • Nick Sanders

            I looked up koalas and chlamydia because I hadn’t heard about this before. The very first article I found mentioned a vaccine in development to protect the koalas. Go vaccines!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Meh, I’m from Texas originally. We’ve got snakes in the toilets and big spiders. Not so many frogs, though. They tend to die of dehydration. A couple of types of poisonous toad, if that helps any.

          • Mishimoo

            We have toads here too – cane toads are pretty common and one of my dogs is addicted to the damn things.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            At least the cane toads aren’t addicted to eating your dogs. You can never be sure with Australia.

          • DelphiniumFalcon

            I love the first comment on this koala fight video: I like how you can hear the exact moment Satan forces himself into the soul of that koala.

            https://youtu.be/x8oLu7znwQ0

          • Mishimoo

            Oh, that is beautiful!! I just scared the dog by laughing at it.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            Oy, I can barely handle the massive roaches where I live. I readily admit that places like Australia would chew me up and spit me out. City girl through and through here. Real nature is icky. 😉

        • Chris Preston

          And the sale of raw milk is banned.

          • Who?

            Is it in Victoria they also add a bittering agent so it is actually undrinkable, after a couple of children were poisoned to death by it?

          • Chris Preston

            It is actually an emetic they have added. That is added to Raw Bath Milk that is sold as a cosmetic, to stop people getting around the law by selling raw milk for consumption as a cosmetic.

            It seems to be working Victorian raw milk producers say they have lost half of their business over night due to stronger action to ban consumption

          • Who?

            Woot. Love to see a simple and cheap solution-makes sense it would be an emetic in case anyone is made enough to make a kid consume it anyway.

            Adults can eat and drink what they want, of course.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Victorian raw milk producers say they have lost half of their business over night due to stronger action to ban consumption

            And it’s not like they can complain, either, because they have been selling their milk as a (wink,wink) cosmetic. But now that people can’t drink it, they lose business because they can only sell it for cosmetic purposes, which is what they claimed they have been doing all along.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            As it should be. The risk from raw milk is exponentially higher than any risk from vaccination.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Even the plants are out to kill you.

          • Bugsy

            But they’re all-natural, so they won’t really kill you…they’ll just provide you with natural immunity against measles instead.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            In Australia? Nature in Australia will eat you and poop you out to fertilize more killer plants. Which will then be eaten by drop bears.

            Actually, my mother used to live in Australia. Perth, to be exact. I went out there once and thought it was beautiful. She loved it to except for the bit about the Pacific Ocean being between her and the rest of the family.

          • Bugsy

            I didn’t get out to Perth during my visit to Australia a few years back, but it looks beautiful (if not a bit isolated from the other major cities).

            For what it’s worth, I completely recognize that Australia is full of venomous creatures & plants. My post above was more in jest; I can sadly picture an anti-vaxxer coming up with something like that.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Yeah, I understood that. I’m just playing with Australia’s image as a completely hostile environment.

          • KarenJJ

            There’s quite a bit or distance between Perth and the rest of the world 🙂

      • Bugsy

        PLEASE DON’T COME TO CANADA, EITHER!! You know, socialism = fascism and all of that fun stuff.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Can I come there instead? I’ve always liked Canada. Though I’m not sure about this Harper guy…

          • Bugsy

            Please do, yes! We’re rather enjoying it up here, but I agree w/ you that Harper doesn’t sit well with us.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I think Australia’s head of state right now is a bit of a creep too, especially about immigrants. Oh, well, being from the US, I can’t make too many statements about other countries having right wing nuts in charge without getting sarcastic replies.

          • KarenJJ

            Australian’s can’t manage sarcasm these days… Sadly baffled, seems to be all I can muster..

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/27/its-over-its-now-impossible-to-satirise-tony-abbott

    • Camille

      I am with you Dr. Sears! But, for those who want to stay in California I think tax resistance might be an option. If we don’t get to go to public schools, why pay for them.

      • JJ

        That’s not how it works. I paid for public schools even when I homeschooled my children. People without children also pay for public schools.

        • Camille

          Maybe that should change.

          • JJ

            Do you have any sense of responsibility to your community and the children in it?!

          • Camille

            Yes, that is why I am saying NO to SB 277 and SB 792. I don’t want to be responsible for more sick and autistic kids!

          • JJ

            You don’t want to help protect all children from disease or help ensure an education for all children.

          • Sarah

            If you don’t want to be responsible for more sick kids, VACCINATE.

          • Camille

            Actually, all the sick kids I am talking were fine until they were vaccinated.

          • Sarah

            Of course they were. However, the possibility of becoming ill after a vaccine, ie due to vaccine complications, is considerably lower than the possibility of becoming ill due to a vaccine preventable disease, except of course in that small minority of cases where a child has immune issues that make vaccination inadvisable. As such, if you want there to be fewer sick kids, YOU VACCINATE.

          • Camille

            Tell that to the kids that died in Mexico over the weekend from mandatory shots.

          • Sarah

            I will when you tell it to all the unvaccinated kids who die from vaccine preventable diseases. You’ll be there a while longer than I will.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Again, what happened in Mexico after the kids got sick: The vaccination program was immediately suspended and an investigation into the reasons that the children got sick was undertaken. No coverup, no attempt to force children to take vaccines that made them sick, no denial. Just a halt of the suspect program and investigation.

          • Daleth

            How do contaminated third-world drugs relate to the question of whether vaccines in the US and Europe are safe?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            My, you are a seriously selfish asshole.

          • Megan

            I’m sure her tune will change if she’s ever in a circumstance to require government assistance like food stamps or once she becomes of age for Medicare and social security. You know, it’s all about what others can do for her, never the other way around because, you know, “MY RIIIGHTS!”

          • Daleth

            Much as Ayn Rand gladly accepted her own social security checks…

          • Camille

            I try to be as self- sufficient as possible Magen. But, I don’t get a paycheck from Big Pharma either, so things are tight. Which is why I can’t stay on here all day like you professionals. I know you have your BMWs to service and your white picket fences to paint.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How do we know you aren’t getting paid to comment by anti-vax organizations? Can you PROVE that you aren’t getting paid?

          • yugaya

            From your mouth into Big Pharma’s ears, Camille as far as I’m concerned. I wouldn’t mind getting paid for speaking my mind in response to ignorant people like yourself on any subject.

          • Megan

            Even if you try to be self sufficient there’s no way to predict if a medical emergency will befall you and you become disabled. Then I’m willing to bet you would apply for government services to help you when you can’t work (which would be in your rights as a tax payer). All I’m saying is that we all pay taxes so that government services are available for all because at one time or another, we will all need them, whether it be unemployment because we get laid off or Medicare and social security when we retire. Our children benefit from tax payer dollars in the form of a safe public education and this benefits society by creating well educated adult tax payers so that the older generation can have Medicare and social security. If we all retreat into the attitude of “I only pay what’s mine” it costs individuals more in the long run and our societal structure falls apart. We all benefit from educated, healthy citizens.

            Oh and by the way, I drive a Honda civic if you must know. Something about students loans and family docs being a low paying specialty… I wish I could be paid to post comments against your ignorance.

          • MaineJen

            …wait. We’re supposed to have BMWs?

            Seriously. Who took my BMW?

          • Nick Sanders

            You’re not really up on the whole concept of a “public good”, are you?

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        A good public school system does more for people living in the district than just providing a good education. If you do not pay school taxes you should not be able to reap those benefits at all.

      • MaineJen

        Well, as long as you are not benefiting IN ANY WAY from public schools. Like, say, going to see a doctor who was publicly educated. Or a lawyer. Or an auto mechanic. Or that farmer who grows your food. As long as no one you ever associate with, who supports you and your family and makes your lives livable on a daily basis, had anything to do with public education at any time in their lives…then yeah, you get a pass on paying for public schools just like everyone else.

        • Bugsy

          Well, in all fairness, if she’s seeing a naturopath in lieu of a real doctor, she may not be benefiting from public schools…or from much of any education, for that matter…

          • Megan

            She certainly doesn’t sound as if she’s benefitted from an education.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        My kid doesn’t go to public schools, but I happily pay my taxes because I want the public schools to be as good as possible and to provide opportunities for a good education to everyone. And a safe education, without being exposed to disease unnecssarily. That means not just vaccinating but parents keeping their sick kids at home.

        • Camille

          If you’re going to ask for us pay for public schools, than the state should pay for those who want to home school. That is only fair.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No it’s not fair. Just because you don’t use a specific road doesn’t mean that you don’t have to pay for it. Similarly, just because you CHOOSE not to use the public school doesn’t mean that you don’t have to pay for them.

          • JJ

            In CA you can get funding for homeschooling if you enroll in a public charter school. You can get about $1,200 per school year in approved supplies/activities and do once a month teacher check-ins where you go over your child’s work.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Why? The option of public school is there for all. You just have to be willing to not willfully endanger the other students.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle

            My state has a homeschool program for families to follow. Plus families are *choosing* to opt out just like families who opt to private school don’t get out of taxes either.

      • OttawaAlison

        So you’re going to create your own roads and have a police and fire force that you pay for then?

      • Nick Sanders

        Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

    • Sarah

      Oh fuck. I hope they don’t come here…

      • yugaya

        If they come here they will show up on my expat mailing list asking for names of corrupt doctors that they can bribe so that they can obtain falsified vaccination records for their children.

        Ethics and morality the antivaxx way.

      • KarenJJ

        Someone’s turn other than Australia’s. We’ve already got Meryl Dorey.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Oh, come on. You sent us Murdoch. Surely we get to send you two or three crazies in exchange.

          Though maybe the anti-vaxxers would be happier in Syria where people are not allowed to vaccinate and get polio instead. But since autistic people tend to not get diagnosed, there being more acute issues to deal with, the official autism rate is likely lower.

          • Amazed

            Not so much, methinks.
            Ah, TCAMN! You disappoint me so. Syria is SO not representative of true anti-vax country. People have poor nutrition and poorer yet hygiene there. THAT’s why they get polio.

            Just how ignorant can you be? I bet you think Poland is a first world country as well.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Hmm…hard to find an industrialized country that doesn’t vaccinate. Perhaps they can join the libertarians in their utopia in Chile? I understand that worked out terribly well for them.

            I’ve been to Poland. It looked pretty first world to me. Actually, my gestalt of the place was that it was the most American European country I’ve visited. I’m not really sure what gave me that impression but that was my impression.

            And thanks! I’m afraid my nym was inspired by an old computer’s habit of eating my cookies, whether I told it to or not.

          • Amazed

            An American European country… you shoot me back to the early 90s when in Poland, I was first introduced to Minnie Mouse. I had a Mickey Mouse pillow but I’d never heard of Minnie. I asked my mom what her name was and she didn’t know either.

            That’s how American Poland was at that time.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I was there in the mid-2000s (erm…the middle of the first decade of the 21st century, that is to say…around 2005, not 2050.) There was a lot of development going on at that time and it struck me as preceeding more along the lines of development similar to what I’ve seen in the US more than what I’ve seen in Europe. Mind you, this is based on a 5 day visit 10 years ago so I’m obviously less qualified to say anything about Poland compared to you. That was just my impression at the time.

          • Amazed

            Hey, I am not arguing with you! I was merely supporting your point. Mickey and Minnie are Americans, right? In all honesty, when I first saw Poland, I was stunned at how clean the streets were. A resident of another ex-Communist country here and things weren’t looking this good here at the time. They still don’t.

        • Mike Stevens

          To be fair, we did send you Tenpenney (but seems like you didn’t want her)

          • You sent us Wakefield. Want him back? 😉

          • Mike Stevens

            Arrrrggghhhhh Noooooooooo!

          • Awww, c’mon! We’ll take David Tennant off your hands in exchange.

          • Amazed

            Hehe, isn’t that like… what was it called when different countries exchange criminals?

            Keep it going. Very fitting.

          • An extradition? I don’t remember. But, Master Tennant is a wonderful person that I’m a big fan of, so not quite the same. 😀

          • Amazed

            Ah yes. Getting the wonderful person in exchange of Wakefield doesn’t seem quite fair.

          • I never claimed to be fair, though. lol

          • Mike Stevens

            He’s Scottish. They want independence and all. But I like him, so no deal.

          • Come on! I know: We’ll throw in Jenny McCarthy, Kim Kardashian and Kanye West in to sweeten the deal.

    • Mike Stevens

      Hope he goes to Somalia or Sudan, and can see first hand what infections can do in the unvaccinated.

      • JJ

        I was thinking the same. It is really easy to be anti-vax in
        USA and not so much in other places in the world.

    • MichelleJo

      I’ll give him a lift to the airport.

  • Bombshellrisa

    To the those who are arguing in favor of not vaccinating: I don’t want you to flounce or slink. Please provide some credible evidence that vaccines are harmful. No name calling, no accusations of shilling for a particular side. Just explain your point of view. You would be surprised at the backgrounds of many of the people who post here, including those who have in the past felt the same as you do about vaccinations.
    I have a friend who is anti vax and advocates for “Nature’s Flu shot”-a concoction of pineapple juice, lemon juice, ginger, garlic and cayenne. She says it protects her and her children. But she is being supremely selfish, what about those who can’t take the “Natures flu shot”? What about her mother in law who is taking chemo or her father, who is recovering from heart surgery. It’s not always about YOU, vaccinating is also about those you come in contact with.

    • Monkey professor for a head

      I agree, but I also want to point out that linking to an anti-vaccination article will not be considered as credible evidence. If you feel your research has been done well then you should be able to link directly to the scientific studies that it’s based on.

      • Stacy48918

        Hard to do if one thinks PubMed isn’t credible. 😛

      • Bombshellrisa

        Oh yes, that is what I meant by credible. If you are quoting natural news, your chiropractor or naturopath’s website or any other source of woo, sorry, that isn’t acceptable.

        • Stacy48918

          I love that they quote their chiropractor or naturopath…then accuse us of being shills and profiting off vaccines.

          • Amy

            No kidding, I love it when a chiropractor tells me the best way to deal with every single medical issue I’ve had, ever…..is to see her for an adjustment.

        • Monkey professor for a head

          It’s just sad that I felt I needed to point that out.

    • Megan

      I actually encouraged Camille to stick around until her comments became all about personal attacks and calling us all schills. Then her posts just became pointless and didn’t add to the discussion at all. I would encourage any antivaxxer who wants to actually discuss credible science to do so.

      • yugaya

        Megan I’ve read the whole thing and you were nice and reasonable with her.

    • Sarah

      To be fair, it does sound delicious. Like, it’s not going to protect you against anything at all, but a glass of that would perk you well up in the morning.

      • Bombshellrisa

        This is the recipe-a full bulb of garlic in pineapple and lemon juice doesn’t sound good at all. I would rather have the flu shot

        • Sarah

          I really like garlic. I had a flu jab a few months ago, it’s not an either/or!

          • Bombshellrisa

            I love garlic, my wasabi–ginger–chili–soy stir fried green beans are my favorite. But I don’t think that taking garlic is going to protect me from getting the flu or “cure” me if I have the flu or a cold. That is the difference.

          • Sarah

            Yes, obviously. That’s why I said it would do bugger all to keep disease away but would be a nice morning pick me up.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Wow. Four cups of spicy pineapple/lemon juice? Even if it worked, I’d rather take the needle, given the choice.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Even if it did work, my husband and I prefer the shot because that much garlic DOES interfere with our love life. We are shallow that way.

  • Megan

    Seriously? You aren’t even trying anymore. Why bother? Saying things just to try to provoke a reaction is so childish, you know, kind of like expecting there to be no consequences for your actions, even if they affect others.

    • Stacy48918

      oops

    • Megan

      That was supposed to be in reply to Camille.

      • Stacy48918

        Oops, and I read it and thought you were Camille, haha!

  • Camille

    Okay, Megan, I am going to flounce and slink away for now. You can breath again.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Can you offer proof that you are not a paid sock puppet for an anti-vax organization? Maybe you get paid to do this.

      • Monkey professor for a head

        If she’s getting paid to do this, then someone needs to ask for their money back.

        • yugaya

          If someone is paying Camille for this – I’m available if you are paying more. 😀

          • Sue

            More money if you can spell “breathe”!

          • Camille

            Oh, my God. You’re grammar Nazis too!

          • Who?

            No Camille, that’s what is called being right and pointing it out. It is what’s been happening here since you arrived.

            Poor attention to detail in one area is likely to indicate general sloppiness.

          • momofone

            Camille, you either do not understand how offensive the use of that term is, or you don’t care. If being heard is your objective, you might try using terminology that doesn’t offend your audience. (That’s giving you the benefit of the doubt–I don’t think you have any interest in being heard; I think you just like to stir shit.)

          • Megan

            You just love to throw the term “Nazi” around, don’t you?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You know, when someone points an error in spelling, grammar, or usage out to Dr. Tuteur, she thanks them and corrects the error. When someone points out an error you made you call them a Nazi. Between someone who corrects errors and thanks those who pointed them out and someone who gets offended when her errors are pointed out, I know who I’d rather believe when there’s a difference of opinion.

        • Sarah

          Yeah, I think the proof is probably in the pudding here…

  • KV

    Given the pro-vax sentiment on this site, I expect this to get buried with the kind of vitriol and rhetoric that is usually pinned on us “Antivaxxers”. But as a dad who cares about the well-being of his daughters, this needs to be
    said.

    I’d like to take a moment to respond to your article. The problem I have with SB 277 is that it limits the choices that both a parent and a healthcare practitioner can make about a child’s health and wellness.

    First though, let me clear up something about the “antivax” population, of which I guess I am a member. My wife and I chose to under vaccinate our children. My wife has a family history (both her and her mother) of reacting adversely to vaccines, including the flu vaccine and childhood vaccines for which our daughters both reacted to negatively. What we’ve come to is the
    realization that we may have a predisposition to adverse reactions with vaccines. We’re not willing to risk another more serious side effect than the one our daughter already got from a prior vaccination. Our family practitioner agrees with us, and the three of us together came up with a plan to vaccinate against the most serious of illnesses but not all recommended vaccinations. What this bill does is removes the ability for the doctor and the patient to collaboratively come up with a plan based on the individual health history of a patient. As a medical professional I’m sure you’re aware that medicine is always evolving as we learn more and more about how the body interacts with its environment and positive and
    negative ways. There are many examples throughout history when
    prevailing medicine was countered by scientific evidence later on, and the medical community adjusted their stance on a topic. It’s certainly not common, but it does happen.

    Now, to your point about reversing the “if there is risk there must be a choice” argument, I would respectfully submit that your logic is flawed. By
    your same reasoning, any child with leukemia or other immuno-compromised individual would also be forced to withdraw from
    school and be denied the right to a public education. But they’re
    not. And that’s because it’s a given that vaccines are contraindicated for some people under some conditions. What I don’t like about this bill is that it limits the medical interpretation of contraindication. The limits of contraindication should be defined by you, and your medical practitioner, after reviewing an individual’s personal medical history and other factors that may influence whether or not vaccine is the right choice for them. Doctors often grief about the limitations to how they practice medicine placed on them by non-doctor employers (Kaiser, et al) and the lack of freedom to treat patients the way they feel they should be treated.

    When you flip the “if there is risk there must be a choice” argument, it falls short. A fully vaccinated child gets both the right to an education as well as the liberty to decide what medical risks they’re willing to take. If this bill passes, an under-vaccinated kid doesn’t get the right to an education unless they give up the liberty of choosing what medical risks they’re
    willing to accept. I hope you see the difference here.

    Also, your argument plays upon the fear that herd immunity is being
    threatened by an under-vaccinated population in California. That
    assumption is based on bad data. Specifically, a child who has all MMR, Dtap, HiB but missed one rotovirus vaccine is considered “unvaccinated”. I wish there was a better method for determining the actual level of under-vaccination. If you have access to that level of data, I’d welcome a link.

    In the body of the bill, it references legal precedent for the public good being of greater importance than personal liberty. I feel that because of the misrepresentation of herd immunity levels, that Senator Pan has failed to make the case that the greater good is being threatened by an unvaccinated population to the point at which it’s okay to curtail personal
    liberty.

    That’s my two cents.

    • Megan

      If your doctor agrees there is a medical reason not to vaccinate then you would still qualify for an exemption. Thus, SB 277 wouldn’t apply. No one here thinks that medical reasons for not vaccinating should be refused.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      What this bill
      does is removes the ability for the doctor and the patient to
      collaboratively come up with a plan based on the individual health
      history of a patient.

      The relevant section of the bill has been posted here. My reading of it suggests that your assertion here is wrong – doctors can authorize exemptions based on medical issues.

      Assuming that is the basis for your objections, then that should ease your concerns.

    • Bugsy

      KV, I appreciate reading such detailed concerns as those that you have posted, and I’m sorry to hear about the side effects your family members have faced.

      That being said, if your physician fully supports your child remaining undervaccinated, then wouldn’t you be eligible for a medical exemption? Per SB 277:

      “120370. (a) If the parent or guardian files with the governing authority a written statement by a licensed physician to the effect that the physical condition of the child is such, or medical circumstances relating to the child are such, that immunization is not considered safe, indicating the specific nature and probable duration of the medical condition or circumstances that contraindicate immunization, that child shall be exempt from the requirements of Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 120325, but excluding Section 120380) and Sections 120400, 120405, 120410, and 120415 to the extent indicated by the physician’s statement.”

      I guess I don’t see how SB 277 would apply to situations like yours in which your medical doctor has authorized remaining not fully vaccinated.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I guess I don’t see how SB 277 would apply to situations like yours in
        which your medical doctor has authorized remaining not fully vaccinated.

        For the moment, I’m willing to give KV the benefit of the doubt and that he was just uninformed. If, however, after having his misconceptions corrected he sticks with the opposition, then we will know better.

        • Bugsy

          I agree. His post wasn’t quite as abrasive as so many of those we see, and he seemed to be genuinely afraid. We’ll see if and how he replies.

          • yugaya

            I’m done being nice with people who fudge with concept of medically indicated vaccination exemptions. To me the comment he made sounds too carefully worded- if you are “just a concerned parent” or “just a concerned citizen” well, all of these concerns have been/can be addressed by qualified people, and no one whose child needs a medical exemption from vaccines is at any risk of injustice or injury or forced vaccination with this law.

            EDIT: I’m referring to this part :”What this bill does is removes the ability for the doctor and the patient to collaboratively come up with a plan based on the individual health history of a patient. ” which is a flatout lie.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It does make me question what they would do if a child wasn’t vaccinated for rotavirus but it was required because you cannot start the first dose after 14-15 months and you cannot have your last one after 5.

          • Bugsy

            Just curious, why do they have those age stipulations on Rotavirus?

          • Cobalt

            It’s not been tested in other age groups extensively enough. No signs of trouble, just an overabundance of caution. The greatest danger from rotavirus is to the youngest, so that’s where R&D focused.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            The first dose is to lessen the risk of intussusception. I would imagine the last one is either for that reason or because their risk of catching rotavirus after 5 is lower than the risk for intussusception.

          • Amy

            I’m not 100% familiar with California’s laws, but here in Massachusetts, the rotavirus vaccine isn’t required for public school entry, though it may be (I’m not sure) for day care. Both of my children are “fully” vaccinated, meaning they have everything that was required for public school entry, but neither ever got the rotavirus vaccine, in the first case because she was too old to start when it was added to the schedule, and in the second because she wasn’t in day care and they just flat-out didn’t give it to her.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            which is a flatout lie.

            I’m still allowing for the possibility that it was an honest mistake, and giving him the opportunity to retract. A simple, “Oh. Nevermind” would suffice.

            However, if he comes back and changes the argument and comes up with a different excuse, then we’ll know for sure.

          • Bugsy

            You raise some great points that I didn’t consider, along with the ones Amazed mentions above. It’ll be interesting to see if he ever reappears with actually accurate information pertaining to SB 277, my questions and his situation.

          • Sue

            ” the ability for the doctor and the patient to collaboratively come up with a plan based on the individual health history of a patient.” sounds like a translation of “not a real vaccine reaction but the doctor is humoring you to get some vax in”.

          • Amazed

            He identified himself as one of “us, Antivaxxers”. Normally, people who are genuinely afraid of adverse reactions thanks to something that happened in the past and who undervaccinate don’t do that. With his rhethorics of vitriol against poor antivaxxers and whatnot, he came across to me as someone who strove too hard to show himself as neutral. Like Anne “I am vaccinated and I don’t understand why you’re so mean to anti-vaxxers”.

            People who undervaccinate because of legitimate health concerns do not identify themselves as antivaxxers and they usually prefer for people who can vaccinate their children to do so, thus increasing the herd immunity for their own children.

            NDs can also be family practitioners. Gordon and Sears are even MDs and I wouldn’t take their stance on vaccines on my life.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          OK, KV has come back and his only response is to whine about Dr Amy’s response. He did not at all address the polite and informative responses.

          Yeah, I think any benefit I gave him is gone.

      • Chris Preston

        KV’s posting history strongly suggest they have drunk deeply at the anti-vax fountain. It contains a number of the usual talking points as well as rants against the government, CDC, pharma companies. So I don’t think they are interested in information to make an informed decision.

        Still it costs nothing to be polite.

        • yugaya

          Being polite is wasted if you are dealing with this level of ignorance trying to pass itself off as merely being legitimately worried:

          “KV
          9 days ago

          Never mind civil rights and parental rights for that matter. I mean who cares about that right especially when it comes to application of medical procedures to our children? And who cares about having compassion for all those families who will be taking care of injured child(ren) for the rest of their lives while the lovely politicians and all of us for that matter go about our business and life as usual.
          Vaccine injured are considered a minority group anyway, so who cares about minorities, right? That is how ridiculous this bill is. It is very simple. Government should stay out of medical decisions,
          especially those that involve risk. Period! If there is risk involved which everyone can agree there is because there are thousands of children injured by vaccines, then parents need to have choice because they ultimately will be caring for that child, not me, not you, not the doctor, and certainly not the lobbyists and politicians. Could someone please tell me why the authors of any bill are allowed to vote on their own bill and then serve on more than one of the committees voting on that bill — what kind of system is that? System failure is an understatement. Have lost all faith in our government and supposed democratic system.

          If people are so afraid of measles and whatever
          disease they have been convinced their child will get because of the ‘minority’ of ‘unvaccinated’ or not fully vaccinated children, then don’t take their kids to international destinations (like disease ridden Disneyland) or any other public place for that matter! This bill may keep those who are not fully vaccinated out of the public school system,
          but let’s be real — those kids will still be drinking from the same public drinking fountain and touching everything in the same grocery store and taking the same bus, train, plane. It’s crazy and absurd to
          think a bill like this is the answer. Do you own research on who was affected from the supposed ‘outbreak’ in Disneyland. How many weren’t
          children? And how many were fully vaccinated? (Crickets chirping)

          I have realized through all of this how broken our government really is and there are more narrow-minded and self-centered people than I can
          count — justifying this unconstitutional bill that will force EVERYONE no matter what to get fully vaccinated (even children who are more susceptible to injury). If their child is fully vaccinated and the government has so much faith in vaccinations, then why the hell do they care about those who are not fully vaccinated! Herd immunity has been established last time I ran the real numbers. Get over it! Why don’t we halt all international flights and close all the borders while we are at it! No one in or out of the country or state for that matter! And don’t drive cars either because statistically speaking, cars pose far greater risk of death or serious injury than this whole crazy blown out of proportion measles epidemic (or yearly new killer flu strain — yawn!) news media just loves it — never mind what’s happening in the rest of the world — you know real news.

          And in consideration of the immuno-compromised children who can’t be fully immunized because of
          uncertain risk (not all immuno-compromised, only those CDC chooses to recognize as qualifying for medical exemptions — cancer, HIV, or dying from anaphylactic allergy to a vaccine component — never mind the whole subset of children, vaccinations pose as great a risk to as far as
          adverse reactions and complications because of auto-immune issues, genetic vulnerabilities, etc), how is passing a mandated school bill going to protect these kids unless they live in a bubble and NEVER go out in public, to the grocery store, a park, or God forbid EVER visit a disease ridden place like Disneyland or international tourist destinations like downtown Tiburon, San Francisco, Sausalito? The life of a child, who qualifies as ‘immuno-compromised’ according to this bill and CDC, is no more important than any child’s life — it’s very
          simple.

          Haven’t been negatively affected by vaccines? Great, consider yourself lucky — there are thousands and thousands of lives that have been destroyed because of a vaccine injury to a child. An
          apathetic friend referred to these injured children as statistical outliers that are sacrificed in order to protect her daughter because that is just the way medicine works and the pharmaceutical industry.
          Sacrifice a few for the greater good? It’s b.s. and I am sick of hearing it!

          Instead of blaming the non-vaccinated (or selectively vaccinated), why not direct your wasted energy to the pharmaceutical industry. There is no accountability or liability when it comes to pharmaceutical companies and the manufacturing and shoving down our throats all these vaccinations (200+ coming down the pipeline) with U.S. leading the way (by far) in the steady increase of number of vaccines administered to our children (yet certainly not the healthiest generation by any means). If the government wants to force this on us, then create an effective checks and balance system first and gain trust that has been lost for good reason — trust in the safety and efficacy of various vaccines. Seat belt manufacturers have product liability but vaccine
          manufacturers do not. Doctors can be sued for malpractice except when they administer vaccinations that injure or kill a person. Vaccines are the only product government mandates and completely indemnifies.That’s odd.

          And yet more illogical sense: Let’s create another bill that does the same thing Pan’s bill did two years ago, but let’s strip away choice and civil liberty for a herd immunity threshold that has already been met — let’s use FORCE because that has always worked well in the past. The government, CDC hasn’t done a good enough job (wonder why?) in convincing everyone that vaccinations are 100% safe (an extremely large subset of the population) Legislation does not change people’s minds. What they didn’t expect with this idiotic bill is that this push for stronger school mandates has mobilized massive opposition and brought even more attention to vaccine safety issues. Hallelujah! (or can I not use that word anymore because it praises God?) It certainly has opened my eyes. This attempt at increased authoritarianism is backfiring, opening Pandora’s box.

          We are heading down a dark path with a bill like this affecting our autonomy and freedom. It doesn’t matter where you are on the whole spectrum of vaccinating or not vaccinating. No one should be okay with the government telling us what to do with our children. Do your own research – not what is being spoon fed. Then let’s have an intelligent and truthful conversation about this topic without lashing out at those who are opposed.

          Solid science? That’s laughable — about as solid as Swiss cheese. When is anything in medicine considered solid? Practice of medicine -practice–it’s called that for a reason. Vaccinations are no exception. We are at the forefront of better understanding (or not) the ins and outs/complexity
          of the immune system that is not identical in any individual due to various factors. We have a long way to go before any one can make a ‘solid’ claim on vaccinations.

          Define ‘vulnerable’ because someone stated this bill protects the vulnerable. SB277 does not protect all
          vulnerable children, only a certain group. It may in fact put just as many, if not more ‘vulnerable’ (the vulnerable the government and CDC chooses to ignore) at risk from having to get more vaccinations as it will supposedly protect.”

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      And that’s about what it’s worth, maybe less.

      If you think you should be able to protect your child from vaccines, then I should be able to protect my children from your children. The fact is that your children pose a bigger danger to other children than vaccines pose to them.

      You’re a hypocrite. You’re willing to enjoy the benefit of living in a society where most children are vaccinated, but you’re not willing to share the burden. If you’re not willing to share the social burden of vaccinating, then there’s no reason why you should enjoy the social benefit of free public education.

      Your behavior is profoundly unethical. You should be ashamed.

      • KV

        Wow. Of all the things that have been said in this thread, the nastiest, most hateful comment comes from the author herself.

        There’s a lot of commentary here, too much for me to tackle addressing in the interest of time. But to you, Dr. Tuteur:

        Where’s the hypocrisy? We took on the responsibility of vaccination. We “shared the burden” and became a statistic, so in a sense we share a greater burden than most. And still took a prudent course to vaccinate in a way that we deemed protective but conservative. We want to reserve the rights of others to make an informed decision about the risks involved. Slight risk, sure, but a risk nonetheless. We get to enjoy that slight risk on a daily basis for the rest of our daughter’s life.

        “The fact is that your children pose a bigger danger to other children than vaccines pose to them.” I have an open mind – can you point to the source of this fact? I’m being serious here, not sarcastic. I’m trying to wrap my head around the idea that the rate of vaccine injury in the US is outstripped by the spread of preventable disease in CA by the undervaccinated population.

        If having a viewpoint that accepts that medicine, like many things in life, is shades of grey and an ever-evolving science and cannot be universally applied without some risk is considered something to be ashamed of in your book, color me shameful. I’m okay with that. I guess the Scarlet A stands for Antivax. Or maybe Acceptant.

        Let the snarky commentary begin. I’ve said my peace.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          No snark. You are an unethical freeloader. You put other people’s children at risk and the worst part is that it is all based on mindboggling ignorance.

        • yugaya

          ” to vaccinate in a way that we deemed protective”

          What you feel/think/believe/deem to be safe or protective is irrelevant, and you preferring your own subjective opinions to consulting experts is not only creating a public danger – you are being reckless towards your own children as well.

          Go and get a medical waiver if your children are at real increased risk of suffering from adverse vaccine reaction. This law does not prevent that in any way.

        • Who?

          It is a fact that the rate of vaccine injury in the US (in the order of 1 per million doses) is far less than the spread of preventable disease across the country due to the un- or undervaxxed population.

          I’m sorry if your daughter is that one. Many more than that one are given money by the judicial process set up to cover vaccine injuries, through which you no doubt have made the claims you can. Money is no replacement for a healthy child but hopefully it helps with the extra expenses you suffer.

        • NoLongerCrunching

          I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your story is very vague. What kind of adverse reaction are you talking about. Is your family doctor an MD? Well, I’m glad your children are at least partially vaccinated. Have you heard the sound of a child with whooping cough? It sounds like torture. Babies can die from pertussis, like this one: http://youtu.be/wV0cxeg8xCY

          • momofone

            What a beautiful baby, and a heartbreaking situation. I’ve mentioned it here before, but I know someone who lost two infants to pertussis before the vaccine was available. She was first in line for any vaccination that became available with her third child, and could never understand how anyone could be so cavalier about vaccinating if a vaccine existed.

        • yugaya

          “If having a viewpoint that accepts that medicine, like many things in life, is shades of grey and an ever-evolving science”

          But that is NOT your viewpoint, that is you camouflaging your true hard core science denialist viewpoints into sensible-sounding ones:

          “Solid science? That’s laughable — about as solid as Swiss cheese. When is anything in medicine considered solid? Practice of medicine -practice–it’s called that for a reason. Vaccinations are no exception…. We have a long way to go before any one can make a ‘solid’ claim on vaccinations.”

          Your true viewpoint is not one of healthy dose of rational doubt, but rather this:

          -medicine is not science
          -medical science behind vaccines is not solid science
          -no amount of existing scientific evidence on the safety or usefulness of vaccines is solid enough for you.

          To recap, you don’t just allow that the science behind vaccines is “ever-evolving” and needs improvement ( a point I agree with because improvements are a constant and a necessity) , you are claiming that the global scientific census on vaccines as is – is an unsubstantiated claim.

          People on this blog have given you far more leverage than you deserve. You’re as ignorant as Camille, despite being more eloquent and passive-aggressive when presenting the same drivel.

    • yugaya

      “My wife has a
      family history (both her and her mother) of reacting adversely to
      vaccines, including the flu vaccine and childhood vaccines for which
      our daughters both reacted to negatively.”

      Documented as in “documented and confirmed as adverse vaccine reactions in medical records” or the usual sef-diagnosing tripe?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        He claims the “doctor agrees”; assuming it’s a real doctor and not a naturopath or the chiropractor, that would be sufficient.

        • yugaya

          “Family practitioner” – I thought it was family doctor or family physician ( I remember looking this up from translating something a few years ago).

        • yugaya

          Also it’s bs in terms of obtaining a legitimate medical vaiwer based on actual adverse vaccine reactions/higher than average risks of suffering from adverse vaccine reactions – a family physician will in that case send you to consult at least an immunologist and they will be the one designing the individualised vaccination schedule.

        • Bombshellrisa

          But NPs in my state are considered doctors who can make that call.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            What will CA allow? I fear the worst

          • Bombshellrisa

            I do too. You would think that the Disneyland measles outbreak would have taught them something but no

          • Bugsy

            I was just about to type the same thing. To add to it, what about anti-vax-happy doctors, like Gordon & Sears? Will parents flock to them to get medical waivers, and will those waivers be accepted by the state?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Unfortunately, I don’t think the state would have any choice but to accept Gordon and Sears waivers. Quacks though they are, they are both doctors in good standing with the state medical board, and the school districts don’t have the right to overrule them.

            Although a lot of it could be addressed by requiring a local doctor to sign off.

          • yugaya

            Or a specialist – my daughter’s medical waiver was by specialist from another country. I had to have her medical records officially translated and the school doctor here filed a request with vaccination oversight body for her exemption. There was a separate additional evaluation and a commission made up of three specialists signed the medical waiver.

          • Amy

            That would be a good idea. I’m thinking about that conceirge not-covered-by-insurance practice that Dr. Aviva Romm works for. They insist on the initial visit to be in person, but that’s it. Everything else can be via phone or email. Which is NUTS.

          • Sarah

            That’s a good idea.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      If you have a real doctor that thinks that your children are at higher risk of an adverse reaction you can get a medical exemption. There is no change as to what constitutes a medical exemption in this bill. Also, they do not count you as unvaccinated because you missed a dose of rotavirus. They would count you as under vaccinated. Also, there is no family history of having a greater risk for adverse reactions. There could be a family history of allergies to a certain component.

    • Monkey professor for a head

      Can I ask you a question? Are you antivax for any reason other than because your children had a reaction? I don’t think anyone here would argue that vaccines have no adverse effects at all, but what the evidence shows is that serious adverse events are rare, and overall a person is more likely to benefit from being vaccinated.
      Do you think that because your children were unlucky enough to have a reaction, that noone should have access to the potential benefits of vaccination? I can think of 3 possible outcomes here. 1. You do think that, which is pretty illogical. 2. You don’t think that, which means you’re actually provax. 3. You have further objections to vaccines which you failed to mention in your posts.
      If you have further reasons to be anti-vaccine, you’re welcome to discuss them further. But I would suggest that if you feel you have truly done your research into vaccines, you should be able to reference actual scientific studies. Articles from anti vaccination websites will not be accepted as evidence by the majority of posters here.

    • Who?

      KV, thanks for a respectful and thoughtful contribution. I’ll leave it to others to cover the specific issues you raise about selective vaccination, but wanted to say that comparing a child whose parents decide is not to be vaccinated to a child who has drawn the short straw that is leukemia, is misconceived.

      No one decides that leukemia is a great choice for their child’s health-it is a serious illness that can often be effectively treated thanks to modern medicine. A child with leukemia is already suffering and struggling, and to force their exclusion from school would be a further challenge to them trying to have as good a life as possible.

    • Wren

      What sort of adverse reactions are you talking about here?

      I once had my entire arm swell up, down to all but my pinky finger, after a shot as a young child. That is most certainly an adverse reaction, but not enough to forgo vaccinations in the future or for my children, and not enough to get a medical exemption if wanted one.

      • KarenJJ

        My big toe swelled up and was very painful after a flu shot once.

        • Nick Sanders

          Why did they give you the shot in your toe?

      • DelphiniumFalcon

        My mom, her siblings, and I actually happen to be a group that has adverse reactions to a vaccine. The tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis one that was used in the early 90s. We get ill with nausea, vomitting, chills, fevers, and the sweats for a few days within a day of getting the shot like clockwork.

        Guess what? We still get vaccinated. And to our delight when we’ve gotten boosters lately we haven’t had this reaction. I think the vaccine changed recently so I suspect that’s the reason why. Because when an issue is identified, since from what I understand this reaction wasn’t especially uncommon, medicine starts looking for a better solution. They did and now I don’t dread my boosters anymore.

        I am actually one of those that suffer from pretty uncomfortable vaccine reactions but you can pry vaccines from my cold, dead non-vaccine previtable diseased hands.

        I’ll vaccinate my kids and if they have the same reaction I’ll comfort them like my mom did for me. It’s better than having to watch them struggle to breathe and know I could have done something but didn’t want to cause an inconvenience to them.

      • Amazed

        It’s fascinating, isn’t it, when you think how many alties extol the pain of childbirth as pain with purpose but a swollen arm and a few days of feeling uncomfortable are way too adverse for them.

        I also had my entire up swell up once but it wasn’t after a shot. It was after an insect bit me. It was uncomfortable. My arm was twice its normal size. I was bitten in the upper part of my upper arm but my fingers were swollen up. Now, THAT kind of swelling is something one should better avoid by avoiding the insect, whatever it was (looked very weird), especially when the experience taught me that I was allergic to the most common anti-allergic drug here. Make the arm thrice its size.

        Guess what? I didn’t die. I wasn’t damaged. Nothing happened.

        Why the hell would one avoid “pain with purpose”, as in vaccine pain, out of fear of such adverse reactions?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      An adverse reaction to a vaccine is a medical reason to defer that vaccine. No one argues that those who have had adverse reactions should be vaccinated. The bill proposed would not change the ability of children who are deferred medically to go to public schools, only those whose parents have chosen not to vaccinate them for ideological reasons. However, two caveats:

      First, it was a little unclear to me whether your daughters had had reactions or you were just assuming that they would because your wife did. If the latter I would enourage you to discuss the risks and benefits of a trial of vaccination with your pediatrician and maybe an immunologist.The children may not have inherited whatever problem your wife had. Also, vaccines have changed over time and whatever gave her problems may not still be in the vaccines. Investigate before depriving your children of protection from infectious disease because of fear of an issue that may not be real.

      Second, a reaction to one vaccine doesn’t imply a reaction to all vaccines any more than a reaction to one medication means that you can never take any medication. Again, I’d suggest an allergist/immunologist consultation to determine what various family members are reacting to in the vaccine and determine which vaccines they can be safely given. Also whether the benefits of the vaccine might outweigh the risks of the reaction, i.e. local swelling that is more extensive than expected might be something you’d want to put up with to get protection from, say, tetanus.

      Best of luck to you and your family.

  • Nick Sanders

    Aww, Disqus is already imploding on this article, and it hasn’t even hit 800 comments yet.

  • Julia

    Shame on you! Censoring unwanted comments:)

  • HippieSkeptic

    The sort of meta argument here, I think, is that some people are making a medical decision (to not vaccinate or to partially vaccinate) that has the (actually quite small) potential to affect other people unknown to them down the line. And that this is not fair. But we actually make medical decisions like that all the time. Every time someone takes an antibiotic, they contribute to antibiotic resistance in the future. This has the potential to affect people unknown to them down the line as well. (As in, anyone who gets a MRSA infection or the like.) And yet we still let people take antibiotics.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      No, it has a very large potential to affect other people.

      A great philosopher, Immanuel Kant once said (paraphrasing here) if you want to know if something is ethical, imagine what the world would be like if everyone did it. If everyone refused to vaccinate millions of children would die of vaccine preventable diseases.

      This is a classic free rider ethical violation. It’s like the person who violates a town waterban to fill his swimming pool reasoning that the volume of one swimming pool is too small to make a difference to the drought. It’s completely unethical.

    • Megan

      I would argue that the effect of not vaccinating to others is quite large. Otherwise we wouldn’t have measles or pertussis outbreaks affecting hundreds of people. These diseases carry consequences including death and could be eradicated if only people would vaccinate. It makes no sense to me. I do not understand why anyone would not vaccinate. There is no science supporting an antivax position. None.

    • Amazed

      Getting vaccinated has reduced the death and health complications (of those getting lucky enough to survive) of smallpox to what, 000000000%? Did it make people’s life better?

      How much not getting antibiotics has reduced the death and health complications of those who suffered ailments that necessitated antibiotics? How did not getting antibiotics make people’s life better?

      Oh wait, it didn’t.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      If someone is taking/using/prescribing antibiotics correctly, then it really doesn’t contribute to antibiotic resistance. It’s when they’re used inappropriately that it becomes a problem. And I’m all for not allowing people to use antibiotics inappropriately.

    • Megan

      And you know what prevents some antibiotic use? Vaccinating for bacterial VPI’s like pertussis or meningitis! Imagine that!!

    • Sue

      Don’t antibiotics have to be prescribed?

      • Nick Sanders

        Sort of. A few doctors basically hand them out like candy, and many patients harass their doctors into giving them antibiotics for everything, and even shop around to find one who will if their PCP won’t.

        • Mishimoo

          Truth! I used to have them at least once a month when I was a teen, sometimes twice if I picked up a respiratory infection. (And that’s even though my cousin died from VRE)

      • Nick Sanders

        Oh, and I had somehow forgotten, you can also buy soaps with antibiotics in them.

  • Chiromom24

    You’re a fear mongering pharmacy whore. Unvaccinated children being vilified by medical doctors educated at the feet of pharmacies and doctors on pharmacy boards who can’t think for themselves and are out to create a human Holocaust of children by forcing vaccines on them like Nazi doctors with out the right to consent and withdrawing the right to an education its draconian.

    • Bugsy

      That’s an impressive laundry list of accusations right there, and you even managed to squeeze them all into one incredibly long-winded sentence! I have no idea what you’re trying to state other than that you think Dr. Amy is evil for believing that parents have the choice to not want to expose their kids to unvaccinated kids…but you get an A+ for putting a lot of crazy ideas into one sentence.

    • Megan

      No one is withdrawing the right to an education or forcing vaccination. All that bill says is that you can’t send your child to public school of you don’t vaccinate. As many of us have said over and over and over again the bill just forces parents to take responsibility for their choices. All of your arguments have already been addressed below because Camille et al have already said the same shit you just posted. Try reading the comments first and if you have something new and credible to add to the discussion I’m sure we’ll all be happy to join the discourse with you.

    • Somewhereinthemiddle

      Between chiromom and Camille, the Nazi references are flying today! Lol! Y’all keep on going because I am *cracking up* at the hyperbole, the willful ignoring of being completely disproven, and the absolutely insane stuff being said. Color me amused.

      • Amazed

        It’s particularly ironic when you come to think that they’re the ones putting the Nazi ideas in motion! They care only about the superior kind of human beings they imagine their special snowflakes are, not thinking twice about throwing people with legitimate health concerns about vaccinating, those who are too old or too young, and those who simply have the bad luck of being among the minority that a shot doesn’t work for, into the concentration camp of their own ignorance and derision for everyone else but themselves and their preconceived ideas.

      • Sarah

        Also, GODWIN GODWIN GODWIN.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Do you really think anyone is going to take this childish post seriously?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Thanks for letting me know I scored a direct hit! Even you can recognize that opposition to SB277 makes you a hypocrite.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Wow. The Pharma Shill Gambit and a Godwin all in one post!

      • Sue

        Double points, and BINGO!

    • araikwao

      “I DON’T LIKE IT!! IT’S A CONSPIRACY! YOUR MEEN!” Does that about sum up your argument? It’s so underwhelming and unconvincing. Just like the evidence for chiropractic, really.

    • Camille

      Wow, I got one friend on this site. Go Girl!

      • Megan

        Why would you come here looking for friends? Need someone to validate your position and stroke your ego? How sad.

        • Camille

          You seem to have plenty of friends here Megan. Are you going to meet them for lunch outside your firms office?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            As BombshellRisa notes below, I am among the top 3 most profilic commentors here (actually, I am first by a long shot, but not to brag…) and, to be honest, I don’t remember ever seeing Megan here before. Now, she probably has been here or there, and I just missed it, but it’s not like she’s here all the time like many of us here. I wish she were – I like the input of pediatricians because I learn a lot from doctors – but she’s not been a regular here or anything.

            She is just smart enough to recognize idiocy and wants to try to fight it. Personally, I think she has been extremely patient with you, considering how stupid the things you say are.

          • Megan

            Why thank you, Bofa. I just discovered this sight a few months ago after having difficulty breastfeeding and I’ve found the commenters here to be intelligent and well spoken. And actually, I’m a family doc but pediatrics is my fave and I see a lot of children. I definitely don’t work for a PR firm though I’d probably make more money if I did!

        • Stacy48918

          Not surprising. The truth doesn’t matter, just finding people that agree with their pre-determined opinions.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Camille thinks she is inducing hypertension in Megan–more like the annoying itch of a mosquito bite.

          • Stacy48918

            They always give themselves so much credit. Like we sign off of the website and fret about “camille” and “chiromom” for hours. Give me a break.

          • Bugsy

            Fret…laugh about…what’s the difference? 🙂

          • Megan

            Yes. Quite like that, actually.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        You’re a fear mongering pharmacy whore.

        Wow, I got one friend on this site.

        Interesting choice of people you claim association with.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        You do realize, Camille, that we are laughing at both of you. It’s like a clown show watching fools try to explain vaccinations to physicians, chemists, toxicologists, etc.

    • Guestll

      Business declining, Chiromom24?

    • Sarah

      I’d like to be a pharmacy whore. The pharmacist at our local chemist is pretty easy on the eye. Free Calpol, hopefully decent sex, what’s not to like?

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Great. Now I’ve got this idea for a sexploitation novel stuck in my mind: “Pharmacy Whore! ‘I did it for love and free allegra,’ she said.” Sex scenes on a bed of expired pills, near misses when a costumer nearly catches you in flagrente…

  • Camille

    Wow, we are sock puppet land on this site. So, “yugaya” “momofone” “Fallow,” “Cartman36” etc. etc.. Are you one individual pretending to many different people , or are all you tools working for one Big Pharma PR agency?

    • Wren

      Evidence for these accusations?

      Let me guess…they disagree with you?

    • Roadstergal

      “I’m Brian! And so is my wife!”

      • Megan

        “We are all individuals! … I’m not!” -Camille

    • Fallow

      I feel like you don’t know what an internet sock puppet actually is. Whenever you call someone a sock puppet, everyone should just substitute the phrase “person who disagrees with me”. That’s what “sock puppet” means in Camillespeak. I wish someone would write a browser extension that would automatically translate anti-vaxx phraseology in general, actually.

      Anyway, if I was getting paid by BIIIIIG PHAAAARMA, I probably would have three cents to rub together. But this is so cool; I’ve never been accused of being a secret pharma promoter before. It’s like a rite of passage. I think a little tear is coming to my eye.

      Wait, didn’t you say something yesterday about how you had better things to do than argue with people on this website? I guess not?

      • Nick Sanders

        Welcome to the Shill Club. We’ll teach you the secret handshake and get you fitted for your ring at the next bimonthly meeting.

        • JJ

          I wish I could be a shill! Then I could afford exotic vacations just for doing what I do for fee now!

          • Kerlyssa

            For fee? Freud is calling! 😀

          • JJ

            Hahaha!

        • Roadstergal

          Dare I ask where the ring is worn?

        • mabelcruet

          Don’t be daft-there is no ring. We need to get out the rubber chicken and the tub of Crisco for the Shill initiation ceremony.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          But I thought we were all one person. How can we have meetings if there’s only one of us?

      • momofone

        I’ve only been accused of it once before. It was a milestone for me too. (Still waiting on the checks though.)

      • Camille

        Actually, a sock puppet is someone usually paid to troll websites and attack anyone that disputes their talking points for their clients, and here, it is probably some Big Pharma company flipping the bill. It is completely different from “some person that just disagrees with me” as most people in that category are unpaid.

        • Nick Sanders

          No, that’s a shill. A sock puppet is when one person makes multiple accounts to pretend to be different people.

          • Camille

            Which equally could be a paid position, and happening on this blog.

          • Nick Sanders

            Now you’re just trying to cover for the fact that you screwed up yet another definition.

          • Camille

            How did I screw it up. I suspect one of you have many different names here.

          • Sue

            Paranoid people who accuse others of “being paid to comment” don;t get how we can react so quickly while holding down demanding jobs or other priorities.

            The fact is, smart, rational people can think and write FAST, and can multi-task. Clever, aren;t we?

          • Bugsy

            That, and it helps that we’ve heard pretty much all of these arguments dozens of times prior. She really hasn’t given anyone anything new to work with…

          • Sue

            True. You just don;t get a good class of anti-vaxer comments these days.

        • Fallow

          Cool, I was right that you had no idea what “sock puppet” means to the rest of the world. You made it pretty obvious, though. I don’t think I get points for that guess.

        • Petanque

          Do you really believe that’s what is happening on this blog?

      • Camille

        Oh, I just come on occasionally to keep current with all your pseudo-science nonsense, and to have fun getting your feather’s ruffled. I seem to be good at it but looking at the reactions I get.

    • momofone

      Apparently Camille’s schedule opened up. Last night she was just too busy to spend one.more.minute here.

    • Megan

      Is that all you have left? Slink away, Camille. Slink away…

      • Camille

        Your always trying to get rid of Megan. Do you not like me?

        • Megan

          There goes your ego again. Why do you care if I like you or not? Why don’t you present some valid, credible scientific arguments? That would actually contribute to the discourse here. If you can’t do that then your presence here is pointless.

          • Camille

            I have, but, you don’t respond to those posts.

          • Megan

            I have read every single post of yours. You’be cited nothing scientific or credible. Vaxtruth and natural news are not scientific sources. Learn to use pubmed.

          • Camille

            That’s not a credible source.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Pubmed is a reference guide to find scientific papers

          • Mishimoo

            Did you forget that all science is paid for by Big Pharma, and therefore anything that references science isn’t credible? Tsk tsk *shakes head*

          • Megan

            Are you kidding?? Wow, you are stupid.

          • Camille

            I am playing with you Megan. Doing the same stuff you do others.

          • Megan

            All I’ve done is call you out on your logical fallacies and lack of any credible scientific arguments. If that’s playing then you haven’t “played” with me at all.

          • Camille

            No, but I am getting your blood pressure up, aren’t I.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            Let me just ask you this. What are you going to do if you break a bone or start having severe chest pain? Is modern medicine suddenly going to be good enough for you then? If so, why do you trust doctors to care for you in an emergency, but you don’t trust them to prevent emergencies?

          • Camille

            God, you are testy. Go take your meds.

          • Sia

            Ad hominem.

    • Sarah

      Shit, you lot are all getting paid? And here’s me doing it for free! Where do I send my timesheet?

      • Cartman36

        #itsonebigconspiracysorrynotsorry. 🙂

      • Bugsy

        Me, too! How can I sign up for my paycheque?

      • Bombshellrisa

        We probably have to call BINGO when someone like the commenters today fit all their canned responses into one comment. So BINGO! Wonder what we win?

        • Sarah

          Immunity to vaccine preventable diseases?

    • Cartman36

      You caught us. We all get paid by big pharma for each anti-vax comment. We will all be at Chili’s tonight enjoying endless apps and beers paid for by the tears of children receiving unnecessary vaccines.

      • Nick Sanders

        Eww, Chili’s? Maybe I should rethink this whole thing…

        • Bugsy

          Hey, endless apps! To a pregnant gal, that sounds delightful. 🙂 (That, and we don’t have Chili’s north of the border…)

          • Bombshellrisa

            Does West Jet fly to Sea TAC airport? There is a Chili’s there!

          • Bugsy

            I don’t think West Jet does, but Delta definitely is a go… And we have a date with Disneyland in 2 weeks…Chili’s Anaheim!

          • Bombshellrisa

            ((Jealous of you right now! You get to go to the Diamond Celebration!))

          • Bugsy

            Looking forward to it…we haven’t been to Disneyland before, and Bugsy needs warm weather!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Love love love Disneyland. We had considered taking a trip there with kids (hubby and I spent a day there on our way home from our anniversary trip in September(and it turns out that my husband’s concerns about not trotting our son out with lots of people paid off. We missed the measles outbreak.

          • Bugsy

            Oooh, any suggestions on what to do, particularly w/ a toddler in tow? If all goes well, this will be our last major trip as a threesome, and we really want to make the most of it for our little guy.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Are you on Pinterest? There are toddler specific lists. It depends on which character your kid likes and some of it depends on where you are staying. My best tips: use the Baby Care Center on Main Street get a button from the “City Hall” that says it’s your first visit (cast members will make your visit even more special) and bring snacks and water.

          • Bugsy

            Sounds great; I’ll check out Pinterest. In WDW in the fall, Toddler Bugsy adored meeting the characters (all of them – he’s even excited about seeing Elsa this time around), but didn’t care for the rides. We’ve booked pretty much every character breakfast until we decide exactly which ones we want to do. 🙂 Will definitely get the button and bring lots of snacks!

          • Bombshellrisa

            Disneyland is easier to walk around since it’s smaller. Just don’t do Peter Pan first like the guidebooks tell you to. You will be stuck in line forever.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            get a button from the “City Hall” that says it’s your first visit (cast members will make your visit even more special)

            They do?

            Didn’t seem to make any difference for us.

          • Nick Sanders

            If all you can eat is what you want, I know of some much better buffets. But for a similar dining experience, I far prefer Applebee’s.

        • Roadstergal

          Can’t we at least upgrade to Pasta Pomodoro?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      How do we know that you aren’t being paid to shill by anti-vax organizations? We don’t, do we? So please present PROOF that you aren’t being paid by anyone to promote anti-vax or we will be forced to conclude that you are simply a sock puppet for the anti-vax industry.

      • Camille

        Anti-vax people don’t have the money to pay people to be sockpuppets. But, Big Pharma does.

        • Cobalt

          Mercola isn’t exactly in the poor house…

          • Bugsy

            You took the words right out of my mouth…

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Yes, they actually do have a lot of money to pay sock puppets and natural news was advertising for such people.

          • So was Momavation and March Against Monsanto! lol
            Who do you think originated the idea?

    • Bombshellrisa

      Why is it that people who comment here are accused of doing it for payment? Bofa and I have been in the top three commenters here for a couple of years now and (as far as I know), neither of us has received currency, precious metals, free medicine, formula, disposable diapers or keychains for our efforts to express our opinions. Big Pharma doesn’t need our help.

      • Megan

        Damn. Maybe I’ll stop commenting then. I really wanted a keychain.

        • Who?

          Jackets. There ought to be jackets.

          • Bombshellrisa

            They can say “don’t worry, I am a Big Pharma shill. Fully vaccinated and proud”

        • Bombshellrisa

          Maybe it’s a points system and you can cash them in when you get enough. I must not have enough points.

      • Cartman36

        If you do start getting free formula and diapers let me know because I could use some too!

        • Bugsy

          I’ll second the request for the diapers! Size 3 for the toddler, or newborn/size 1 for our upcoming arrival. 🙂

    • yugaya

      So you don’t do science well… you don’t do history well at all… you don’t do geography either… and by accusing four highly individually expressive commentators of being sock puppets/paid and scripted spokespeople for one source…. you’ve finally also proven that you don’t do language at all.

      Have you considered retreating to commenting on Infowars? You’ve achieved all you could around here, and with your unprecedented display of all antivaxx ignorance in a single person you’ve earned your own satirical post: http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/05/if-you-give-an-anti-vaxxer-an-admonition.html

      • Camille

        Wow, I am truly honored to have my on webpage. Thank you!

        • Camille

          Actually, You lie, those aren’t my talking points, those are the sheet the PR firm gives you to counter act critics of SB 277. Now I am offended!

          • Megan

            None of us work for a PR firm, Camille. Your nonsense is getting old. You obviously have nothing of credence to offer here.

          • momofone

            It would be nice, wouldn’t it, if we did work for some PR firm? Because then you could chalk up the consistent challenges to your claims to our paid-for loyalty to a “firm”, as you keep putting it. Instead, you’re left to figure out what to do with the dissonance between what you want to believe and what many different people are showing you. I hope you won’t flounce this time. I hope you’ll listen, and read for yourself, and question, and come to a conclusion that actually has scientific support.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            For some reason, it’s reminding me of the old cartoon with the sheepdog and the coyote. They are both working for the same company, with the coyote trying to steal the sheep and the sheepdog protecting them. Of course, the coyote is completely failing and looking like a fool while the sheepdog calmly beats his brains in.

            Maybe we are all paid by Big Pharma, and Camille is just being paid to serve as the sacrificial fool?

            It actually sounds more plausible than the alternative, which is that she believes all this crap.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Like this

        • yugaya

          Of course you couldn’t do irony of being a walking/talking/posting antivaxx bingoboard even if it were injected directly into your bloodstream.

  • Cartman36

    This is what I think of when I read anything written by an anti-vaxxer.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      And it’s working. They sound very photosynthesis.

  • NoLongerCrunching

    http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/liberia-declared-ebola-free

    Another evil act by Big Medicine. Those Doctors Without Borders people must be thrilled they will finally get to their golf games!

  • Camille

    “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini

    I would argue, our legislative bodies have been taken over by corporations. Look at Senator Pan’s contributors. Merck, GlaxoSmithKlein and all the usual suspects are writing these laws.

    • JJ

      Vaccines are not big money makers. Senator Pan is a physician so I am pretty sure he has been in favor of vaccines for a long time. I don’t get donations from corporations and I am an SB277 supporter.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Oh, I see what you mean. Like Senator Hatch, sponsor of the DHSEA of 1994 that deregulated supplements and allowed supplement manufacturers to basically act without any oversight at all and his connections with the “silicon valley of supplments”? You’re right. That sort of thing can be very dangerous and has killed many people.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html?_r=0

      • Camille

        What does this have to do with SB 277 and SB 792?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          It demonstrates that Big Supplement is buying senators. Since you were going on above about how evil it was that Big Pharma contributed to the campaigns of some senators I felt it was relevant. Especially since Hatch sponsored the bill that gave them free reign. If you were even slightly intellectually honest you would see the connection.

          • Amy

            Yup. Big Crunchy and Big Pseudo-Crunchy are HUGE in some places. There’s an overlap with MLM businesses, too– buy from an “independent consultant” who’s only in it to get the TRUTH about REAL HEALING to people because those eeeeeeevul doctors get so much bribe money from Big Phrama. Utah, for example, has very lax regulation concerning MLMs, so a lot of them are headquartered there.

          • Who?

            And don’t forget Big Supplement is often a subsidiary, co-owned company or is otherwise related to Big Pharma.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Senator pan has not gotten any more contributions from pharmaceutical companies than he has from chiropractors. You should probably learn a little bit more before you go slandering people.

      • Camille

        You’re very good at slandering people Mr. Poop.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I don’t say things about people that aren’t true. Sorry

          • Camille

            Show me the evidence that he’s gotten as many contributions from Chiropractors?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It is public record. Go look it up

          • Camille

            Send me a link

    • yugaya

      Your quoting is as bad as your knowledge of vaccines – THAT quote is fake.

      Now please go and learn some real history of fascism from real historical sources you piece of shit.

      • Camille

        Whoa, you are getting testy aren’t you! I must have hit a nerve!

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Perhaps they prefer not to be lied to. I know that must be hard for you to believe.

        • yugaya

          I had four grandparents who raised me and taught me about fascism, last one of them passed away at the beginning of this year:

          One grandfather spent three years in Italian concentration camp before walking back home for days and immediately joining antifascist movement. He was wounded and lost two brothers during the war.

          My other grandfather was almost 16 when he was about to be conscripted into Hitler’s army. He ran away and joined liberation movement before that, and his family got kicked out all of their property. His father was arrested. The family had to leave the country in which they lived. He was also wounded during the war.

          -One grandmother had her family slaughtered by fascists, out of 37 members of their extended family only four survived. Three years later she was trying to procure food for her villagers with other girls and young relatives by going into enemy territory, seven girls from this group got arrested, beaten and tortured and interrogated by the Nazis for a week. They were packed into a train heading to concentration camps with final destination Auschwitz. Several people from the transport managed to escape while the train was still in the station during allied bombing, she was among those people. The four friends arrested with her went on to go from one camp to another until they were liberated from Auschwitz in 1945 and returned home. I knew one of those ladies, she lived on our street.

          My other grandmother was a young girl who only passed liberation movement messages around while attending school during the war. She only witnessed her neighbours being shot in the street and things like that. Her family was insulated from atrocities because of their religion and favourable ethnicity. She got into town history books as one of the youngest sympathizers of antifascist movement.

          Victory day was celebrated a few days ago. Someone posted on fb how when you see all the stupidity and ignorance going on in this world when people like you open their mouths and talk about fascism, it is kind of worth wondering whether we should be celebrating at all.

          • Roadstergal

            Yeah, but I bet none of them experienced the horror of a vaccination requirement to protect others when using a public resource. Could you send over some more palms? I don’t have enough on my face.

          • Sarah

            Wow. And a belated happy victory/VE Day to everyone, particularly you yugaya. My granddad fought in Italy, amongst other places, and he said some awful stuff went on. Incidentally Camille, despite having despatched a number of fascists to meet their maker, he was pro-vaccine. All his children were fully immunised. Those who survived WW2 usually were. There seems to have been something about witnessing terrible deaths and experiencing great hardship and privation that made them, y’know, not want to have to keep doing it.

          • yugaya

            I asked a lot of questions when I was a teenager why they made the choices in life that they made, especially the grandfather whose family ended up losing everything because he ran away. Their answers I think sum up into “there really was no choice”, like to them choosing to fight against fascism was something you had to do. For yourself, for everyone around you that you love, and especially for those around you who suffered more than you and your loved ones did.

            Kind of like the dilemma to vaccinate or not.

        • Montserrat Blanco

          I lived during a dictature a (admittedly very) small part of my childhood. This one did not force vaccination. I still have patients crippled by polio and one of my aunts died of polio. I suffered measles and almost died. If you are comparing fascism to that California law… Believe me, you have no idea about fascism. Our dictator loved Big families but did not care very much about keeping them alive.

      • Camille

        I guess you would know all about fascism. You sound like a pro. I am being educated by you.

        • Daleth

          Some of us actually do know more about fascism than you. Some people here are from fascist countries. Some used to live in fascist countries. Some have studied the languages and culture (including politics and political history) of fascist countries–me, for instance. Is it that hard for you to acknowledge that there are subjects on which some people know more than you do?

          • Megan

            But Daleth, Camille DOES know more about everything than everyone. She even knows better than Sullivan where he himself lives! (See comments from yesterday)

          • Bugsy

            That was my favourite part of yesterday’s discussion…hehehe!

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It was my fault. I should have used caps, elipses, and misspelled words. I should know better

          • Who?

            Sullivan if you can’t be bothered to speak Camille’s language, how can you expect her to understand you?

      • Camille

        Whether is is falsely attributed or not, the concept is still true.

        • Fallow

          That’s not how it works. You can’t expect anyone to take you seriously if you can’t take two seconds to get basic quotes straight. It shows a pattern of laziness and/or intellectual dishonestly.

          • momofone

            Exactly. It’s sloppy work.

    • Yes, corporate relationships with government are worrisome. That doesn’t mean that everything a corporation makes is ineffective or harmful, that simply doesn’t follow.

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    Let’s take a look at some numbers. Don’t worry, anti-vaxxers, I’ll do all the hard stuff like addition myself.

    The hepatitis B vaccine costs roughly $50 or so a dose, so maybe $150 for the whole series. $200 if you’re unlucky enough to need a 4th dose. Sorafenib, the first line drug for hepatocellular carcinoma* costs about $100 a day.

    Now, suppose you’re an Evil Big Pharma director. You can develop a vaccine that will earn you $150/person once or a drug that will earn you $100/day x months to years. Which one sounds more profitable to you? Which one would you want to shut down to prevent it from cutting into your profits: The treatment that prolongs life but doesn’t cure or the vaccine that prevents people from ever getting the disease**?

    *Sometimes. It’s complicated.
    **Actual big pharma answer: “We should be so lucky as to have problems selling our drugs because there’s not enough disease. Sure, shut us down! I’ll retire and become a pastry chef.” Because, actually, most big pharma people are really humans and not demons.

    • JJ

      “Because, actually, most big pharma people are really humans and not demons.”

      Yes. Most people are not evil to the the core and want to help their family and friends stay healthy. To be an anti-vax conspiracy theorist requires a good amount of anxiety and/or paranoia. I really think a large percentage need treatment. (I don’t mean that as a insult as I am very prone to anxiety/depression).

      • Bugsy

        Very true…I’m also prone to anxiety & was diagnosed with GAD last year. I find that it’s easy to slip into the conspiracy theories depending on how anxious I’m feeling as well as the company that I keep.

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      Exactly. Can I believe that a couple of people in Big Pharma might be capable of trying to boost their profits by making people sick? Oh, totally. A lack of ethics is, however, hardly the sole province of Big Pharma. Look at just about any business area, and you’ll find some people with serious ethical problems.
      Can I believe, however, that the thousands and thousands of researchers, specialists, doctors and so on are all part of an Evil Plot to make us all sick to make them all money? Erm, no. Because, as you say, most are generally decent people, or at least not totally unethical, amoral monsters.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        A lack of ethics is, however, hardly the sole province of Big Pharma.
        Look at just about any business area, and you’ll find some people with
        serious ethical problems.

        Exactly. For example, big supplement, NARM…

    • Sia

      Stealing. Thank you!

  • Octavius

    I personally feel like there should be more options, anti-vaxxers can get their hippy kind of vax without some of the stuff that doesn’t need to be in there and others can get the one with all the unnecessary stuff. Has anyone ever read some of the ingredients in them(yes most of it will be a bunch of blah blah blush) but some of it is pretty crazy.

    • Who?

      And that’s a great idea, unfortunately every time a concession is made, the usual suspects jump on the new bandwagon and proceed to find something else they aren’t happy about.

      For me, this is the clearest evidence that the anti-vax movement, at it’s head, is an industry. When they see a risk to their brand, they move to counteract the risk. If the interest was truly improved public health, they would applaud responses to their lobbying, but that’s not how it works, unfortunately. And in the meantime their hapless children, and those too young to be vaccinated, or the immune suppressed, are at risk.

      • Katia

        Too true. And this “safe vaccines” thing is just a tag-line. Anytime someone says “I’m not anti-vax but. . . “, they’re anti-vax. As you talk with them, it gets more obvious. They start hauling out all the other myths, too.

    • Brian

      That is an optimistic viewpoint, imo.

      While the vast majority of the anti-vax are composed of the ignorant or gullible, the drivers of the movement are those who have a financial stake in the deception. The “alternative medicine” industry, which by definition sells untested and unproven treatments, relies on people not believing actual doctors, so if they have nothing to gain from other options, they’ll fight it just as they do the current vaccines.

      We’ve already learned that facts, evidence, or just plain reality doesn’t do much to change the mind of an anti-vaxxer.

    • Dr Sarah

      @Octavius: What do you see as ‘the stuff that doesn’t need to be in them’?

      Yes, I have read the ingredients. I’ve also read about them and the reasons why they’re there. The ‘ingredient’ list includes everything that’s needed in the growth/production of a vaccine, even if in practice that ingredient is only going to end up in the vaccine in negligible quantities or not at all, so, yes, there is a list of stuff that is needed to make vaccines or to make them effective that sounds scary but actually a) is there for a reason and b) has been studied over and over with no sign of it causing significant harm. So which ingredients do you feel could be left out, and what would you do to fulfil the role that they currently play?

      • SporkParade

        Yes, this. A big part of the problem is that the anti-vaxxers can never figure out what ingredient in vaccines they object to. First, it was thimerosol (which was never in every vaccines). Then, once thimerosol was removed, they switched to blaming aluminum. Another part of the problem is that they are spreading lies about what’s actually in the vaccines, or playing up how scary the ingredients list is. We’ve had parachute commenters here expressing outrage that the flu vaccine, which is cultured in chicken eggs, may possibly contain trace amounts of scary-icky albumin (aka egg whites). We’ve had parachute commenters also object to the fact that vaccines contain dead bacteria even though that’s the whole point. Not to mention that a lot of them suffer from a general fear of synthetic chemicals, which is why they tend to also be into homeopathy and herbal remedies and against conventional agriculture and GMOs.

        • Megan

          They can’t figure out what ingredient to be scared of because none of the ingredients are unsafe.

          • JJ

            They sound scary though!

          • Nick Sanders

            Some of the vaccines contain sucrose. I’m diabetic. Checkmate, vaccinationists.

        • Nick Sanders

          That’s nothing. Several months ago, someone in a vaccine facebook group I’m in kept repeatedly insisting vaccines went through a complex series of horrors to be made. The only specific step I can remember was “poured over monkey balls”.

          • momofone

            Damn it. I’m allergic to monkey balls. Is there an alternative?

        • JJ

          What about if vaccines were persevered in homeopathic chemicals?

        • madcapfeline

          Don’t forget all of those aborted fetuses. Some of the crazier AV’s would have you believe that each and every vaccine has one whole dead baby in it.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m curious where they would find a large enough syringe.

        • Amy

          My absolute favorite is “animal DNA.” What the HELL do they think is in meat and dairy? They’re not all vegans, after all.

          • Roadstergal

            And there’s no difference between animal and plant DNA; same structure, same backbone, same base pairs. There’s even rather a lot of conservation of genes across the kingdoms. :p

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Heck, even if you’re a vegan your food was probably picked and processed by humans. Skin cells wear off and some of them end up in the food. So human DNA in food is probably unavoidable.

            Sorry, you totally did not want that thought in your mind, did you?

          • mabelcruet

            House dust is mostly shed human skin, along with a lovely cocktail of animal dander and house dust mite faeces. Every time you do your housework you’re inhaling vast quantities of human and animal DNA. Think of it, all those horrid scary DNA molecules crawling around your lungs!

    • Sarah

      Well, there are homeopathic ‘vaccines’ which some of them like. Was that the sort of thing you were thinking of?

      • sdsures

        In other words, a placebo. Yeah, that’ll work just as well as the regular vaccines!

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Do you think that they put stuff in vaccines just for shits and giggles?

      Everything there has a purpose, and if you want to take something out, you have to figure out an alternate way to do what it does. It’s not trivial.

      And what do you think in vaccines is “crazy”?

      • Mattie

        you mean they don’t just stick things in drugs for funsies, like pretty colours, or glitter, or flavourings, they’re missing a trick there 😉

        • Alcharisi

          You mean I could have had glitter in my vaccines?!
          I demand a refund. MOAR SPARKLES!

          • Michele

            Can I get my house a vaccine against glitter? That stuff is a pain to clean up. They don’t call it “craft herpes” for nothing.

          • moto_librarian

            Glitter is the herpes of the craft world.

          • Megan

            Can I get vaccinated against glitter so that It can repel right off of me?

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve found two separate websites for sending people an envelope full of glitter, just because of that.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            That is dark and disturbing. Now I just need someone I find annoying enough to do it to. 😉

          • Megan

            If only we had Camille’s address…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I think I am going to go into business selling dryer lint.

          • Roadstergal

            Ever since we got two dogs, our dryer lint has been a special sort of hell.

          • Mattie

            possibly that ultra hydrophobic coating might work, it repels water but I imagine glitter wouldn’t stick =/

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            Those cheap lint removers that use sticky paper work pretty good to remove it

      • Camille

        As stated earlier: Aluminum, formaldehyde, Thimerosal (still in flu shot), Benzethonium Chloride , Cetyltrimethylammonium Bromide, 2-Phenoxyethoanol for starters.

        http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccine-ingredients/

        • Wren

          Have you ever tried to discover WHY these ingredients are either in vaccines or used in their production?

          • Camille

            Fewer than 20% but perhaps more than 10% of the general population may be susceptible to formaldehyde allergies and may react acutely at any exposure level.

            Formaldehyde is oxidised to formic acid which leads to acidosis and nerve damage. Acidosis can be described as a condition in which the acidity of the body tissues and fluids is abnormally high. The liver and the kidneys may also be damaged.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Camille

            what’s your source? Also, is this just one dose?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I don’t know about you, but I have eaten more than one pear in my life as well.

          • Sue

            I eat my pears according to the advised schedule. No formaldehyde toxicity here.

          • Petanque

            I think it’s safest if my family consumes fruit on a delayed-pear schedule. I’ll be contacting my grocer tomorrow so we can formulate a plan together that I’m comfortable with.

          • Nick Sanders

            The source is listed on the image:
            http://tinyurl.com/foodCH20

            And yes, I would assume that’s one dose. However, at 0.83% it would take 120 (and a half) vaccine doses to equal a single pear.

          • madcapfeline

            “Big Farma probably bio-engineered all of those pears to contain formaldehyde for the purposes of sterilizing our children. That’s why I only eat organic, non-GMO, formaldehyde free pears.” -Camille.

          • Julia

            Formaldehyde is metabolized so quickly that it does not accumulate from multiple vaccinations. Or from eating repeatedly eating pears.

          • Petanque

            That’s it! I’m throwing out every single pear in my fruit bowl right now. Why did nobody tell me this??

          • Nick Sanders

            One of the deadliest plants on Earth. Why, it tries to warn you itself with its terrible taste.

          • Fallow

            And if the taste doesn’t get you, the texture will.

          • JJ

            Your body makes formaldehyde so…..

          • JJ
          • Wren

            a) That doesn’t answer WHY it is used, which was the question I asked.

            b) Your body creates formaldehyde.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I guess we should just skip the formaldehyde and inject everyone with wild type viruses and active toxins to make Camille happy. Not to mention it is really the gas that causes people problems. There is more danger in manufacturing the vaccine than in getting it as far as formaldehyde is concerned.

          • momofone

            I’m sure she’d volunteer to go first, since it’s clearly the safest option.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            We could always go back to scratching cowpox pus into peoples’ arms. Very natural. No manmade chemicals.
            Or…not. Thanks.

          • Sue

            No, Wren. Special anti-vax snowflakes don’t make that toxic formaldehyde in THEIR bodies…or, if they do, they do emergency detox. Stat.

          • madcapfeline

            You know your body produces formaldehyde as a natural byproduct of certain bodily functions, in far greater quantities than those found in vaccines, right?

          • Roadstergal

            She’s been told this multiple times. It doesn’t get through.

          • demodocus’ spouse

            80% of my immediate family are susceptible to marijuana allergies. Do you have a citation for the allergy comment, from somewhere reputable?

          • Julia

            And just how much formic acid would you need to cause acidosis? Ever gotten acidosis from an ant bite?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Formaldehyde is oxidised to formic acid

            But isn’t formate also readily oxidized? Compared to something like acetate, I would think formate would be pretty easy to oxidize further.

            I am finding that formate acidosis does result from methanol poisoning, but the concentrations are on the order of 10 meq/Liter. A 20 lb infant (average 6 mo) will have about .75 L of blood. Given 100 micrograms in a vaccine (see the graphic below), that means that the total blood concentration, assuming everything shows up in the blood, would be 4 microeq/L, or about 2000 times lower than the levels associated with acidosis.

            In other words, you don’t have the first friggin clue what you are talking about.

          • Burgundy

            Since that’s the case, other then pears, please also don’t eat apple, apricot, banana, cabbage, carrot, cauliflower, green onion, any onions, plum, potato, mushrooms, melon, any meat products, any fish nor drink goat milks because they all contains much higher formaldehyde then a single vaccine shots.
            You can’t use any paper products or any cosmetics/lotions that won’t expired more then a week, because they most likely contain formaldehyde or other form of preservative.

          • Daleth

            You also can’t wear no-iron shirts, because formaldehyde is what keeps them wrinkle-free.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Pretty much anything with DNA

        • Nick Sanders

          Explain why any of those are “crazy”. And any answer that boils down to “it’s got a big scary sounding name” is unacceptable,

          • Camille

            “Aluminum content in parenteral drug products could result in a toxic accumulation of aluminum in individuals receiving TPN therapy. Research indicates that neonates [newborns] and patient populations with impaired kidney function may be at high risk of exposure to unsafe amounts of aluminum. Studies show that aluminum may accumulate in the bone, urine, and plasma of infants receiving TPN. Many drug products used in parenteral therapy [injections] may contain levels of aluminum sufficiently high to cause clinical manifestations [symptoms] . . . parenteral aluminum bypasses the protective mechanism of the GI tract and aluminum circulates and is deposited in human tissues. Aluminum toxicity is difficult to identify in infants because few reliable techniques are available to evaluate bone metabolism in . . . infants . . . Although aluminum toxicity is not commonly detected clinically, it can be serious in selected patient populations, such as neonates [newborns], and may be more common than is recognized.” [Department of Health and Human Services, Food and Drug Administration, Document 02N-0496, Aluminum in Large and Small Volume Parenterals Used in Total Parenteral Nutrition. Available online at: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/98fr/oc0367.pdf%5D

          • Nick Sanders
          • momofone

            I’d be interested in hearing this in your own words.

          • Camille

            I figure I would give you a source you would call “credible” because I know if I wrote something you would attack me as not being credible. I know your tactics.

          • momofone

            Really? Because to my knowledge you don’t know me at all, much less my “tactics.”

          • Megan

            No need to bash momofone. I’ve been the one bashing your credibility since it’s no existstant and I’m happy to keep doing it. The source you just provided is credible but completely off topic. TPN and vaccines are totally and completely different. That you don’t understand that just shows your ignorance.

          • Megan

            And let me clarify. By saying your source is credible, I only mean it’s not from antivax blog like everything else you’ve cited. Truthfully you’ve been the best out of all of us at disproving your credibility.

          • Megan

            Do you even know what TPN is?? It’s VERY different from a vaccine.

          • MaineJen

            Do me a favor and google “TPN therapy” for me. Then tell me what in the world TPN therapy has to do with receiving a vaccine.

          • Neya

            Total parenteral nutrition has NOTHING to do with vaccinations. It is prescribed when the GI system has to be circumvented, but nutrition needs to be delivered. There are many risks involved with TPN. However, it is preferred over allowing people, in particular infants, to starve to death. TPN is not simple injections, as you have implied. TPN is delivered through a central line that is place surgically and maintained very carefully and it comes in bags not shots. TPN is monitored very closely to minimize the risk of liver and renal damage. If you were interested in demonstrating that you do not understand the literature or have any knowledge of medical and/or pharmacological terminology, this last comment did that beautifully.

          • Willow Schwartz

            That notice is about aluminum in TPN (total parenteral nutrition, commonly called “tube feeding”), not vaccinations. It’s also guidance from long ago- it’s12 years old.

            This current FDA review of aluminum in vaccines is from February of this year and reports:

            “The risk to infants posed by the total aluminum exposure received
            from the entire recommended series of childhood vaccines over the first year of life is extremely low, according to a study by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

            This study is important because it provides additional scientific
            information confirming that the benefits of aluminum-containing vaccines administered during the first year of life outweigh any theoretical concerns about the potential effect of aluminum on infants.

            A previous study done by others also concluded that the risk to infants of aluminum in vaccines is not significant.” http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm

            So, are you just rolling around ‘teh intertubes’ and ‘cherry-picking’ information that supports your position, because that lacks intellectual rigor and is unethical and dishonest.

          • madcapfeline

            “I never took high school chemistry.”

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          There is nothing in a vaccine that does not have a purpose. There is nothing in vaccines at a toxic level. Aluminum salts have a lower toxicity than vinegar. Vaxtruth is a nonsense propaganda site.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          What’s crazy about them? Just spewing big words means nothing to me (HINT: I’m a chemist, I know what all those things are)

        • Keoki George

          vaxtruth is hardly credible.

    • Nick Sanders

      Which ones are “unnecessary”?

  • namaste863

    I guess it’s a comfort to know that every time these anti vaxxers open their traps, they just prove to any reasonably sane person that they don’t have the foggiest idea what they’re talking about.

  • Brian

    Why is it that those quickest to criticize vaccines are the quickest to prove their ignorance of it?

    • Megan

      Because of their huge egos. Fun to watch, isn’t it?

      • namaste863

        It’s a bit like watching a train wreck; fascinating and repulsive. Most of the time, I am thinking to myself “please PLEASE tell me people aren’t stupid enough to believe this shit.” Unfortunately this particular brand of stupidity can have lethal consequences.

      • madcapfeline

        Not really. Turns my stomach a bit, tbh.

  • momofone

    “When it passes, you will be able to exercise your right to protect your
    children from vaccines no matter how small the perceived risk may be and
    everyone else will be able to exercise their right to ban your children
    from schools no matter how small the perceived risk may be. Everyone
    will be happy!”

    Exactly! I live in one of the two states in the US that has no exemptions other than medical (and I believe my state has only allowed 17 exemptions in the past few years), and it’s one of the few areas we excel in. We have incredibly low rates of vaccine-preventable illness. Absolutely don’t vaccinate if it violates your personal beliefs; however, it violates mine to have my family members with compromised immune systems exposed to you, so stay out of schools and other places where you recklessly endanger others.

    • NStephenson

      Do you avoid other public places like libraries, playgrounds, grocery stores? Have you found a school that is germ-free where nobody ever comes down with a cold? Have you kept up with your own boosters?

      • Megan

        No one is saying vaccines make public places germ free but if we are able to reduce the chances of illness I think we should. Are you suggesting that if we can’t eliminate all illness we shouldn’t try to eliminate any illness at all? That’s like saying we shouldn’t bother with seat belts because sometimes they don’t prevent injuries in a car crash.
        Comparing a cold to measles is just silly. You don’t get encephalitis or die from a cold. VPI can cause serious illness.
        Also, I’m sure that momofone has had her boosters if she has immunocompromised family members. If you scroll down you will see the discussion many of us had with George G about our boosters. You will find that most of us have very up to date vaccines.

      • Brian

        You get a Black and White Logical Fallacy award. Congratulations!

      • Tommy Bakerino

        “Well you may get a cold, so rubella for all of my kid’s friends!”

      • momofone

        I have kept up with my own boosters. In answer to the first part of your question, I certainly do avoid those places when I am with family members who have compromised immune systems. Of course that’s not a guarantee, but I’ll take the surer bet every time. I’m not looking for germ-free, but I’ll take as close as I can get to vaccine-preventable-illness free any day. As far as I know the cold is not one of those.

        • KeeperOfTheBooks

          The comparison of vaccination to that of freedom of speech, with all that both issues entail (for example, freedom of speech doesn’t let you yell “Fire!” in a crowded movie theater to see people trampled to death), is an interesting one, and one that I hadn’t heard before. I’m kind of back and forth on exactly what I’d like to see in terms of mandatory vaccinations and the consequences thereof, or if there should be any, and so on. This framed it helpfully for me…more food for thought. Thanks!

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        So, if you can’t avoid a cold you should not be able to avoid polio?

        • Bugsy

          As soon as they develop vaccines for the common cold, you can bet my family will be first in line…

          • JJ

            If the cold vaccine was added to the schedule then anti-vaxxers would complain that there were too many vaccines, Big Pharma just wants $$$, ect.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The common cold is multiple viruses with high mutation rates, so the vaccine is likely going to remain a fantasy indefinitely. Unfortunately.

            The “common cold” can definitely turn nasty, though, even for completely healthy people. SARS is basically the common cold with a gene insertion and a bad attitude.

          • Bugsy

            I’ll gladly take that fantasy any day. I just got over a cold this week, and being pregnant, every time I sneezed, I leaked. (Sorry, TMI…) The fantasy of cold vaccines will continue to live on in my head!

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        You’re right, NSteph. I’m going to take your approach to life from now on. Next time I get into a car I’m going to make sure I’m drunk as a skunk because, after all, if I can’t guarantee that I won’t get a flat tire what’s the point of taking any precautions at all? I think I’ll also go back to nob and tube wiring in the house because code wiring doesn’t stop a meteor from crashing through the roof, now does it? Clearly, there’s no point in preventing preventable problems while there are problems in the world that can’t be prevented.

      • moto_librarian

        I am up to date on all of my boosters, as is my husband. If there were a vaccine against the common cold, you bet your ass I would take it! As an asthmatic, I will do damn near anything to prevent minor illnesses that can cause me big trouble.

        • Amy

          And as someone living in New England, I’m kind of pissed off that while they used to have a vaccine against Lyme disease, it was found insufficiently effective or something and is just….gone now. I wish they’d make one, that way my kids and I could enjoy ourselves outside instead of worrying about deer ticks.

          • Roadstergal

            It was quite effective. It was taken off of the market because of the anti-vax brigade. They claimed it caused juvenile arthritis. Even though data showed it didn’t, the company withdrew the vaccine because of concerns over lawsuits – as it’s not on the required schedule in the US, it wasn’t covered under the NVICP.

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            But you can get one for your dog! and ditto on the pissed off, I camp in R.I. a lot , SOOO many ticks

      • demodocus’ spouse

        nope. nope. yup.

    • Camille

      It’s one more step to fascism and you know that. But, maybe you would like to live in a fascist state?

      • Who?

        Ah so you are from the left of the anti-vax movement. Interesting, you sound like you are from the right. I guess it’s like the end of Animal Farm, in the end they are all the same and you can’t tell one side from the other.

        • madcapfeline

          Nice reference. +1

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaaaaaddddddddd……

      • Christopher Takagi

        straw man fallacy and slippery slope fallacy

      • yugaya

        I live in a country with mandatory childhood vaccination schedule. It’s a democratic country and as such is allowed to be a part of more advanced bunch on our part of the developed world continent.

        (I would personally probably describe my current government as fascistoid in too many ways, but mandatory vaccination schedule is not among the complex historical and political reasons that are causing this to happen).

      • Sarah

        You keep using this word fascism. I do not think you know what it means.

        • sdsures

          Yeah, that’s a word that gets tossed around a lot.

        • Camille

          “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini

          I would argue, our legislative bodies have been taken over by corporations. Look at Senator Pan’s contributors. Merck, GlaxoSmithKlein and all the usual suspects are writing these laws.

          • Sarah

            Your response suggests my initial hunch was correct.

          • Fascism- an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

            That’s what fascism is. It’s a political ideology that has empirically led to horrifically bad results. Its economic facet is central control of the economy to serve the needs of the state; corporations aren’t officially in control in a fascist state. Now, the intertwining of political power and monetary power (because fascism is all about big monopolies) means that in practice, you do see a lot of bleedover between corporate and political power, but that’s definitely not a defining feature of a fascist state.

          • NoLongerCrunching

            No one’s talking about arresting your whole family and forcibly vaccinating them. Just that if you’re unwilling to contribute to public health, why should you get the benefits of public services like education?

      • Tommy Bakerino

        I would like to live without measles because of rubes like you.

      • madcapfeline

        I would like to pack you up and drop you off in the middle of a REAL fascist state. Just for a little while. Maybe, if you got to see first hand just how good you’ve got it, you’ll stop with this whole “my opinion is better than your Ph.D.” nonsense.

      • MaineJen

        It’s not fascism. You still have a choice. You can choose not to vaccinate…AND you can choose to deal with ALL of the consequences of your decision. You know…just like the rest of us have to.

    • Alisha

      And do u quarantine ur kid for 6 weeks like ur supposed to after vaccinating so they don’t spread the disease virus through their feces or snot by virus shedding? Keep ur vaccinated kids away from my healthy kid too. It goes both ways!

      • momofone

        I’m sorry. What does “ur” mean?

        • Alisha

          It means your or you’re! Is it that difficult for u to figure out my shortcuts? Seriously? YOU’RE not proving anything with YOUR effort to try and make me look uneducated. I am educated. It’s the way I CHOOSE to short-cut when I text via phone rather than keyboard. YOU’RE welcome for my time clarifying something so basic for you!

          • momofone

            I didn’t have to “try and make (you) look uneducated.” You’re taking care of that with no help from anyone.

      • Nick Sanders

        Where on earth did you get this idea about a quarantine?

        • Alisha

          From a vaccine insert. Read one once in awhile. You may find it informative

          “5.8 Risk of Vaccine Virus Transmission
          Post-licensing experience with VARIVAX suggests that transmission of varicella vaccine virus may occur between healthy vaccine recipients (who develop or do not develop a varicella-like rash) and contacts susceptible to varicella, as well as high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella.
          High-risk individuals susceptible to varicella include:
           Immunocompromised individuals;
           Pregnant women without documented positive history of varicella (chickenpox) or laboratory
          evidence of prior infection;
           Newborn infants of mothers without documented positive history of varicella or laboratory
          evidence of prior infection and all newborn infants born at <28 weeks gestation regardless of
          maternal varicella immunity.
          Vaccine recipients should attempt to avoid, to the extent possible, close association with high-risk
          individuals susceptible to varicella for up to 6 weeks following vaccination. In circumstances where contact with high-risk individuals susceptible to varicella is unavoidable, the potential risk of transmission of the varicella vaccine virus should be weighed against the risk of acquiring and transmitting wild-type varicella virus."

          • Who?

            Has such an infection ever been reported?

          • Nick Sanders

            And the child you previously referred to as “healthy” is immunocompromised?

          • Alisha

            Doesn’t have to be…
            Shedding is shedding and vaccine manufactures are known to stretch truth and deny and lie and get fined for fraud constantly.

            Besides, yes, there are immune compromised children out there as well. The same ones that pro vaxxers like to scream about.

          • demodocus

            Very few vaccines shed. Of all the ones my boyo has had (and the boosters we’ve gotten over the last few years) only the rotovirus sheds for a couple days, in poop. Wash your hands extra thoroughly after diapering and don’t let the toddler paint with the contents of the baby’s diaper. Most are made with dead viruses, and the dead do not reanimate.

          • Young CC Prof

            If shedding was a real risk, it would be happening. But it isn’t. The only two vaccines for which shedding is a proven risk are no longer used in the USA: oral polio and smallpox. There are no documented cases of someone developing a serious illness from shedding by any other vaccine, and, as Nick said, many vaccines are killed and cannot possibly shed anything at all.

          • Nick Sanders

            That was demodocus, not me, but he’s right.

          • Nick Sanders

            You know, for someone complaining about stretching truth, denying, and lying, you’re sure doing an awful lot of it.

  • Sullivan ThePoop

    I just want to post this because I truly believe if you on the fence about vaccines about reading about it this will help you to understand that a lot of the things antivaxxers say about ingredients are not accurate. They are not ingredients they are used in the growth or manufacture of vaccines and are purified out as much as possible without changing the efficacy of the vaccine before you ever get it. Pathogens have to be grown. They need to eat and survive to be grown. Anyway, this can be found here https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

    M-M-R®
    II
    (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Virus Vaccine
    Live) is a live virus vaccine for vaccination
    against measles (rubeola), mumps, and rubella (German measles).
    M-M-R
    II
    is a sterile lyophilized preparation of (1)
    ATTENUVAX® (Measles Virus Vaccine Live), a
    more attenuated line of measles virus, derived
    from Enders’ attenuated Edmonston strain and
    propagated in chick embryo cell culture; (2) MUMPSVAX®
    (Mumps Virus Vaccine Live), the Jeryl Lynn™
    (B level) strain of mumps virus propagated in
    chick embryo cell culture; and (3) MERUVAX®
    II
    (Rubella
    Virus Vaccine Live), the Wistar RA
    27/3 strain of live attenuated r
    ubella virus propagated in WI-38 human
    diploid lung fibroblasts.{1,2}
    The growth medium for measles and mumps is Medium 199 (a buffered salt solution containing
    vitamins and amino acids and supplemented with fe
    tal bovine serum) containing SPGA (sucrose,
    phosphate, glutamate, and recombinant hum
    an albumin) as stabilizer and neomycin.
    The growth medium for rubella is Minimum Essential Medium (MEM) [a buffered salt solution
    containing vitamins and amino acids and supplemented wi
    th fetal bovine serum] containing recombinant
    human albumin and neomycin. Sorbitol and hydrolyzed gel
    atin stabilizer are added to the individual virus
    harvests.
    The cells, virus pools, and fetal bovine serum ar
    e all screened for the absence of adventitious agents.
    The reconstituted vaccine is for subcutaneous adminis
    tration. Each 0.5 mL dose contains not less
    than 1,000 TCID
    50
    (tissue culture infectious dos
    es) of measles virus; 12,500 TCID
    50
    of mumps virus; and
    1,000 TCID
    50
    of rubella virus. Each dose of the vaccine is ca
    lculated to contain sorbitol (14.5 mg), sodium
    phosphate, sucrose (1.9 mg), sodium
    chloride, hydrolyzed gelatin (14.
    5 mg), recombinant human albumin
    (

    0.3 mg), fetal bovine serum (<1 ppm), other bu
    ffer and media ingredients and approximately 25 mcg of
    neomycin. The product cont
    ains no preservative.
    Before reconstitution, the lyophilized vaccine is
    a light yellow compact crystalline plug. M-M-R
    II
    , when
    reconstituted as directed, is clear yellow.

  • Megan

    Everyone gather round as Camille proves her own ignorance. Admission to the show is free!!

    • Camille

      Wow, I seemed to have caused a number of you to throw a tizzy every time I write. Glad to get your blood boiling, or, is that the vaccines causing your hyperactivity?

      • Nick Sanders

        Being proud of infuriating willful ignorance is just sad.

        • madcapfeline

          In all fairness, what else does she have going for her?

      • Megan

        Nope. My blood isnt boiling at all. I think you’re so ignorant about science that it’s entertaining! Keep posting!!

        • Camille

          Nah, I got better things to do than STAY ON HERE ALL DAY like you hacks. But, I will check in occasionally. Ciao!

          • Fallow

            Hope you’re going to go read some histories of the Nazis. Maybe the world will get lucky, and you’ll never compare your fake problems to those faced by people who were thrown into concentrations camps.

          • Bugsy

            Yes.

          • Camille

            Here is some history for you!

            Auschwitz, the largest German concentration camp of WWII, was the ideal “guinea pig” testing arena for dangerous pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines created by IG Farben (a very powerful cartel that consisted of German chemical and pharmaceutical companies such as BASF, Bayer, and Hoechst). Jewish prisoners of war would not be able to “sue” the government, so inhumane testing ensued. By vaccinating Jews, homosexuals, and anyone who denied the political views of the Nazi’s (including children), Hitler was isolating his “master race” by sickening, weakening, or killing opposition, with a passive and silent terror campaign through vaccinations and nerve gas. (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/economics/igfarben.html)

            Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036062_vaccines_Nazi_medical_experiments.html#ixzz3Ztl1TdXK

          • Christopher Takagi

            did you know that IGF also invented a process that extracts nitrates and nitrites from the nitrogen in the air, creating fertiliser that has saved tens of millions of people from starvation?

            oh and genetic fallacy

          • just me

            Haber?

          • Who?

            This is just sick, sad and sorry.

            And if I wanted to learn something, I wouldn’t go to Natural News as a source.

          • Sarah

            Yeah, but the Nazis also achieved nearly full employment, so people shouldn’t try and have jobs because THAT MAKES YOU LIKE HITLER.

          • yugaya

            “Jewish prisoners of war would not be able to “sue” the government”

            Whoever wrote this bullshit is downright insulting – to view the Holocaust through your own little privileged prism of antivaxx agenda is disgusting really.

            Those same Jewish people in concentration camps that you are abusing to hammer in your antivaccination points had been stripped of their basic human rights like education and work for over a decade before that. Highlighting “not being able to sue their government” speaks nothing of their position, but tells volumes about antivaxx ignorance.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            I’m pretty sure that had prisoners at concentration camps been offered an effective typhoid/typhus vaccine, they’d have welcomed it.

          • Bugsy

            This.

          • Sarah

            Do you even history, sis?

          • Who?

            Self taught both history and science-maybe Camille is a whizz at maths?

          • SporkParade

            Here’s some current events for you! Bashar al-Assad has been preventing children in areas of Syria controlled by or sympathetic to the rebels from getting their childhood vaccinations. As a result, polio has already made a comeback. Also, anyone who goes around demonizing autistic persons and saying that they’d be better off dead from preventable diseases has a hell of a lot of nerve calling *other* people Nazis.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            No freaking kidding. I simply cannot grok the “I’d rather have my child die than be on the spectrum.” Really? Really? I’d damn well rather have my daughter alive and autistic, and methinks that’s true of a hell of a lot of people who’ve lost their kids to VPDs. That’s leaving aside how incredibly insulting such a statement is, too.

          • Megan

            None of this BS has anything to do with current vaccines, which are not experimental and always involve informed consent (hence the paper fact sheet you get EVERY time you get a vaccine). Even with CA SB277, no one is forcing vaccination, only requiring full vaccination in order to attend school. If you feel that strongly about vaccines, then don’t give them to your kids and don’t send them to school. That’s all the law requires. Read the article again if you cannot grasp this concept.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Wow. That is the most confused statement about WWII and the Holocaust I’ve ever read. “Jewish prisoners of war”? Do you think Germany was fighting Israel in WWII? The Jews in the concentration camps were German civilians, not POWs. And “vaccinations and nerve gas” is an…interesting…combination of concepts. Almost as though you were trying to make a false equivalency between the two.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            By that argument, scalpels have been used in unethical/inhumane testing, so we should never use scalpels. I’ll have to let my OB know to use a steak knife instead the next time I need a C-section.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Try to stick the flounce this time will ya?

          • Camille

            Go night you all! See you tomorrow!

          • Megan

            Funny, but up until now you have been on here posting all day. I guess you’re tired of being refuted. We’ll be happy to keep trying to teach you science though. Personally, I think it’s a lost cause but perhaps someone on the fence about vaccines will read this post and think twice about the anti-vax crap they read on the sites that you linked. Maybe they will realize that science is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. That’s why I post to refute people like you, not because I think I’ll change your mind. Actual scientific studies have shown that scientific info about vaccines only makes people like you hang on to their anti-vax position, because it’s not about science with zealots. It’s about their egos, as has been said here already.

          • Camille

            Actually, I just check in every few hours for a few minutes just to keep you and your friends on your toes Ms “Science”. But, I don’t have the stomach to stay on here long. I literally get ill reading these posts.

          • yugaya

            “I literally get ill reading these posts.”

            You should report this adverse reaction to vaccines to VAERS.

          • Megan

            None of us have to be very much on our toes to refute anything you say as all of your arguments are logical fallacies.

          • madcapfeline

            Well, being up on one’s toes does aid in not stepping in the bullshit she keeps leaving all over the place.

          • momofone

            You do understand what “literally” means, right?

          • SporkParade

            In all fairness, both F. Scott Fitzgerald and Mark Twain used “literally” to mean figuratively. But who knows, maybe reading our posts causes her psychosomatic illness or something.

          • Bugsy

            If you get ill from reading posts online, perhaps you should consider vaccination?

          • Christopher Takagi

            ad hominem attack

          • Who?

            That was her second go at the flounce, by my reckoning.

            She can’t stick it.

      • Christopher Takagi

        loaded question fallacy

    • Burgundy

      my internet at home broke last night and miss a good show.. too bad so sad.

  • Camille

    Why does this website look like a phony astroturf grass roots site? I smell a lot of industry hacks here.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Wow! You just proved you can only group think. That is really sad

      • Camille

        Wow, do you not see the irony with your statement?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, because I never group think.

        • Keoki George

          there is no irony. Science is on our side. All you have are con artists.

          • Camille

            You mean BigPharma science, which kills more people every year in this country with prescription drugs, is on your side. Talk about group think.

          • Keoki George

            No, the biggest killer is heart Disease. followed by cancer.
            http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

            Your brain washing by con artists has warped you.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Thank you Keoki! Finally someone backs me up on this.

          • Keoki George

            ‘You mean BigPharma science”

            No actual science. over 10,000 studies done by independent scientists (usually through universities)

            Care to provide your list of non-shill studies (so nothing by anti-vaxxers trying to sell you supplements) published to peer review journals?

            and once again, you can’t argue without using a logical fallacy.

    • Megan

      Yawn…

    • Who?

      I thought that smell was you?

      • Kq

        Silly Who, don’t you know vaccination kills your naturally occurring civil rights?

        (seriously, I can only make it about 5 comments into the antivax crazy before I have to go lie down)

        • Who?

          Regular short breaks are critical I think.

    • Keoki George

      and Camille adds more to her list of logical fallacies use

      Ad Hominem

      Not to forget:
      Argumentum by package insertum
      Strawman
      False Equivalency
      Godwin
      Non-sequitur

      • Camille

        Well, I am tired of your idiocy so go ahead and enjoy your attacks on the civil rights of others.

        • Who?

          What about my civil rights? Or are yours more important?

          • Sarah

            Obviously. I don’t know why you even need her to confirm that for you!

          • Who?

            Yes isn’t it lovely how their rights go everywhere, and everyone else’s go nowhere. It must be a bloodthirsty sight when two of them meet and differ.

          • madcapfeline

            I’d pay to see it.

        • Keoki George

          Pot. Kettle. Black.

          the only idiocy on display has only been from YOU and your anti-vax friend, George G.

          No civil RIGHTS ARE being attacked, and your constant claims to this shows that YOU have no clue what you are talking about

          THE US SUPREME COURT ALREADY WEIGHED IN ON THIS!

          https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/case.html

          Conclusion: THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION to mandate VACCINATION prior to attending public school!

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Again, I just proved to you that this has nothing to do with our civil rights. I live in a state in the US that never had personal belief exemptions. That is proof positive that it has nothing to do with civil rights.

          • Julia

            Then keep away from California, this bill is California business

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, it is everyone’s business because California spreads infectious diseases to susceptible people all over the world.

        • Who?

          Was this the flounce? Not much sticking power, if yes.

        • Tosca

          Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The measure being advocated would prevent unvaccinated children from attending public school, where they pose a major risk to public health.

          I am going to keep telling you this.

          • just me

            Actually, I would advocate forced vax for the public good except for those with a true medical reason why not

    • Nick Sanders

      You might want to get your nose checked, then. Smelling odors that aren’t there can be a symptom of a tumor.

    • Tommy Bakerino

      Not being a dolt does not make one an industry hack, rube.

    • Amy

      I’m a math teacher. Public sector. Never worked in “industry” in my life.

    • demodocus’ spouse

      I’m a social studies teacher, which means I probably have a firmer grounding on Nazis than you. The closest I ever got to industry was picking up my stepfather a couple times from his job as a security guard at a button factory.

    • Jodi Hilla McCormack

      Nope, wrong industry, I’m a worker bee in telecom. I just appreciate Dr. Amy,s honesty, dedication to truth and science, and a occasionally a good show.

  • Bugsy

    Completely & utterly OT: in my birth plan, all I have to say that this is the type of birth I’d prefer to avoid:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/1990701/canadian-woman-gives-birth-on-air-canada-flight-en-route-to-japan/?hootPostID=4fae2d960f1ad3f10b087153785b51a8

    • Megan

      I don’t know…Do you get free peanuts and pretzels? If I have to pay, ill pass though. 😉

      • Bugsy

        If Air Canada hadn’t gotten rid of the free bag allowance a few months ago, I might’ve had to consider this birth option. 🙂

        • Megan

          The “mile high birth club!”

          • namaste863

            Well, it works for conceiving them, why not delivering them, too?

  • Camille

    What hysteria trumped up by Big Pharma PR firms!! You guys fell for it big time. In California we have a very high vaccination rate in our schools (97.47 percent), but somehow there is a crisis of unvaccinated threatening society, enough to force draconian laws on Californians. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Read the Nuremberg Codes please which talk about informed consent before any medical procedure. WE DON’T LIVE IN NAZI GERMANY do we? Well, maybe we do.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      What hysterical nonsense by internet con artists trying to make money off parental fears. You fell for it big time.

    • Who?

      Oh Camille, have a lie down.

      Don’t send your kids to school if you don’t want to vax them. There, that’s easy.

      When another baby dies of measles or whooping cough I guess you’ll just shrug and say it doesn’t matter.

      • Camille

        Just stay away from the recently vaccinated. Your kid will probably get it from them.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          That is not how it works. Some live virus vaccines do shed attenuated virus. This is only a concern for severely immune compromised people and is easily avoided since it usually sheds in feces. Do your children often play with their friends’ feces?

          • Roadstergal

            I’m thinking she doesn’t know what ‘attenuated’ means.

          • Bugsy

            A lot of anti-vaxxers seem to be lost on that word.

          • Camille

            Actually, John Hopkins and St. Jude tell on their literature that immune compromised people should stay away from the recently vaccinated. That is the truth.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, they actually don’t

          • Camille
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Poor sources only confirm your own bias.

          • Camille

            You can see the print out right there. are you blind?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am not going to healthy home economist because I don’t like lies.

          • Katia

            No, they don’t Camille. They changed their advice in March, after that dopey WestonPrice foundation placed an ad on msnbc that gave the old info. See this: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/patient_information/education/handbook/Immunocompromised%20patient%205.pdf

          • Keoki George

            Camille has used weston price to push Classens Type 1 Diabetes / vaccine link

            They are a bastion of pseudo science

            http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-weston-price-take-your-pseudoscience-elsewhere.html

          • Bugsy

            Thanks for posting this link! I was struggling to find it, but got lost online in my pregnancy brain-induced state.

          • Mattie

            OT: Makes me angry that they basically recommend declawing cats, no no no, so cruel, never do that ever 🙁

          • Katia

            I’d never heard of them until this spring. They seem nuts. My kitties have all their claws!

          • Mattie

            I mean, I can understand the risk to immunocompromised people of cat scratches (although cat bites are worse for germs) but there are things like soft paws that go over the cat’s claws to prevent injury. Declawing is not just removing claws, it’s basically equivalent to cutting off human fingers at the top knuckle, and can lead to all sorts of unpleasant problems. Very bad, and illegal in most countries (possibly all except US but not sure)

          • FormerPhysicist

            Because of immunocomprimised relatives with close contact, I pick a killed vaccine when possible. My children get the flu shot instead of the mist. Because even with the changed recommendations, I feel better about that and the coverage is quite similar.

            But I would never deny them vaccines. That would be stupidly counter-productive.

          • Katia

            That makes sense. Yes, your relatives would be worse off if your kids got flu and gave it to them!

          • Christopher Takagi

            ad hominim attack

          • Who?

            You do know-forgive me, but your comment makes it important that someone spells this out-that just because something is written down, doesn’t make it true or correct forever. It might once have been correct, but with time and more learning, it isn’t, or it may always have been wrong or misconceived.

          • Keoki George

            of which you didn’t read their instructions fully. so please don’t comment on things that you have no evidence for.

          • Nick Sanders

            Do you know what “immune compromised” means?

          • Bugsy

            Feces are both all-natural and provide natural immunity, don’t ya know!? A highly recommended toy for young children. 🙂

        • Who?

          My kids are grown, fully vaxxed when they were kids, thanks for your misplaced concern on two fronts.

          And they never caught any vpd from their fully vaxxed friends, and since we’re living in anecdata land during this conversation, does that count for anything?

        • Nick Sanders

          Nope.

        • Christopher Takagi

          straight up wrong

          • Who?

            This one Camille might be able to understand, though she won’t agree.

    • Megan

      We have thoroughly refuted all of your nonsense, Camille. Go stroke your ego somewhere else. That’s all the anti-vax movement is about. It’s not about science. It’s not about rights. It’s certainly not about common sense. It’s about making yourself feel good about your stupid choices. There is no reasoning with you people since you don’t even understand basic science or how to actually research anything. I am bored with you.

      • Camille

        Megan, our rights are important. Do you want to live in tyranny, where any drug or vaccine the government says you must take drugs against your will? I don’t want to live in your dystopian world. It looks very ugly.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I live in a state that never had personal belief exemptions. I do not live in tyranny. You are so lost

          • Camille

            Do you live in California? We have personal belief exemptions.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Wow! You are more lost than I thought. I LIVE IN A STATE THAT NEVER HAD PERSONAL BELIEF EXEMPTIONS. I thought caps might help you understand. I can use a bunch of ellipses if you need.

          • Camille
          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am wrong that I live in a state that never had personal belief exemptions? What are you talking about?

          • Bugsy

            Lol, this is hilarious.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I have argued with lots of stupid antivaxxers. This one takes the cake

          • Guestll

            YOUR WRONG!!11!

          • momofone

            Clearly you have no idea where you live! Thank goodness Camille’s got it covered for you.

          • Keoki George

            how is SULLIVAN WRONG, when HE LIVES In one of the 32 STATES that DO NOT HAVE PBE’S???

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I didn’t even both with her link. Maybe I should look. Oh lord, it is about California. I guess it could have been worse. I should have used the ellipses.

          • Tosca

            *you’re*

          • Julia

            go to China, they have almost no rights for medical choice. You will be happier there

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, I would not be happier there. I in no way want to give away my right for medical choice. Nice logical fallacy though

          • Keoki George

            so what? they are going the way of the do-do. Many states DO NOT HAVE PBE’s!

          • just me

            Yeah and it SUCKS

        • Megan

          Yes, my rights are important. That’s why I’m glad there are bills supporting my right to send children to a public school without being exposed to unvaccinated children. I only wish this was the law n my state. You have the right to not vaccinate your child. They just can’t go to school if you don’t. See, the problem here is that people like you and George think that there should be no repercussions for your stupidity and that your “rights” matter more than anyone else’s rights and even more than public health. What conceit…

        • Tosca

          Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

        • LibrarianSarah

          You know who also complained a lot about her “rights” being violated? Typhoid Mary. Didn’t stop the quarantine though.

        • Christopher Takagi

          slippery slope fallacy and appeal to emotion fallacy

        • Sia

          Camille, I am opposed to any laws that force parents to vax their kids.

          Can you point me to such a law so I can voice my objections?

      • demodocus

        I love it when people insist a Jewish person promoting Nazi-ish laws. Bernie Sanders had a good comment for that several years ago

    • Roadstergal

      Draconian laws saying you have to have a mild amount of consideration for the public welfare when using public resources. Do you consider the legal requirement to carry insurance in order to drive on public roads to be draconian, too?

      • Camille

        That’s not the same as shooting mercury and formaldehyde in your child’s veins.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Vaccines are not shot into veins. There is no mercury in vaccines and formaldehyde is not an ingredient. It is used to inactivate pathogens and toxins. In your world would we just use straight pathogens and toxins?

          • Camille

            actually, Flu shots still have mercury in them and those are being recommended to school aged children

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No vaccine ever had mercury. Multidose killed vaccines sometimes contain thimerosal.

          • Julia

            “No vaccine ever had mercury”
            OMG, this person claims to be educated :))
            Have you heard anything about 1999 CDC call for removal of thimerosal from vaccines? Read some Wikipedia, Uhh.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I understand that you think reading Wiki is getting an education. It definitely shows.

          • Mike Stevens

            Thimerosal is not mercury, julia. It is a mercury salt. The difference is crucial.
            You know, rather like the difference between table salt and chlorine gas is rather important?

          • Julia

            Mercury salt contains mercury, go take some chemistry class. Everything what contains mercury salt – contains mercury.

            And thimerosal is toxic due to mercury it contains.

            “Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[16]”
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

          • momofone

            In your own words, “…go take some chemistry class.” Wikipedia may not be the educational powerhouse you seem to think it is.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You are making an absolute fool of yourself, Julia.

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2009/10/truth-about-thimerosal.html

          • Julia

            You have already made a complete fool of yourself, by this nonsense post, so I’m not surprised that Wikipedia means nothing for you.
            “MD” does not make you look smarter :))

          • Who?

            Keep at it Julia you are a huge asset to the pro-vax cause.

          • Julia

            I have expected that you would delete my comment.

            A good doctor does healing not politics.
            A successful person would never insult his opponent.
            I feel sorry for you.

            Wikipedia is a world-wide reliable source, and it says that thimerosal is toxic, even though it is ethyl sodium salt. In your article you just manipulate the term ethyl mercury, fooling your readers.
            Your “MD” must be withdrawn. If you really have one :))

          • Who?

            Dr T doesn’t delete comments-unless there are threats of violence, which unfortunately there sometimes are.

            If you’re suggesting that Dr Oz Dr Sears and others, who are highly political, are not good doctors, that would be hard for me to argue with.

            Wikipedia is interesting. It isn’t reliable, though, and can’t be used by a child to prove a fact in a school assignment, so won’t cut the mustard when science is being discussed among adults.

          • Julia

            I have expected that you would delete my comment.

            A good doctor does healing not politics.
            A successful person would never insult his opponent.
            I feel sorry for you.

            Wikipedia is a world-wide reliable source, and it says that thimerosal is toxic, even though it is ethyl sodium salt. In your article you just manipulate the term ethyl mercury, fooling your readers.

          • Who?

            So does table salt contain tables?

            Pink salt contain pink?

            Rock salt contain rocks?

          • Mike Stevens

            Its toxicity is dependent upon exposure concentrations, julia.
            In sufficient quantities, everything is toxic, even water and oxygen.

          • Aquatic.

            Are you a fish?

          • Julia

            Are you able to read?
            It says “also”, not “only”

          • Still doesn’t change the basic principle of toxicology though.

          • Keoki George

            thimerasol isn’t heavy metal mercury. Maybe if you took high school chemistry, you would have known this.

          • just me

            ? are you referring to elemental Hg by”heavy metal”? Strange way to put it.

          • Katia

            Thimerosal-free flu vaccine is available.

          • Camille

            Okay, butt then.

        • Roadstergal

          Suppose I had a ridiculous belief that the paper that the insurance information was on was highly carcinogenic. A belief as ridiculous as the idea that vaccination involves ‘shooting mercury and formaldehyde into my child’s veins.’ I would have every right to my ridiculous belief, just as you have a right to yours. I would not have a right to drive on public roads without insurance, however.

        • Keoki George

          You body produces formaldehyde naturally and ITs IN YOUR blood stream already

          There is no mercury in vaccines.

          Ethyl mercury in vaccines is like saying there is a hydrogen bomb in water.

          http://www.decodedscience.com/ethyl-methyl-mercury-difference/25234

          • Roadstergal

            Or chlorine gas in table salt.

        • Bugsy

          Dihydrogen monoxide is quite dangerous, too. So says my dad, the chemist. No doubt it appears in vaccines, too.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            It makes up most of the 0.5mL in a vaccine.

          • Bugsy

            Well, THERE you go! Damn evil toxin there, and the biggest one of them all…

          • Who?

            But think of the homeopathic effect after the box gets jostled on the way to the doctor’s office!

            Snark, btw.

          • Monkey Professor for a head

            It’s been found in tumours! Tumours sheeple! And doctors have been known to inject it directly into people’s bloodstream, especially mixed with sodium chloride! And do you know that sodium explodes when it’s mixed with dihydrogenmonoxide! Big Pharma is trying to explode us!!!!!

          • Bugsy

            Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!! And it’s in chemtrails!!!!! Put on your tinfoil hats, everyone!

          • just me

            I’ve been trying for years to find the old snl clip from the 70s where someone is offered a glass of H-2-S-O-4 after they do the water bit.

          • Michele

            Not the clip, but I always giggle a bit…

        • Tosca

          Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

          PS. Vaccinations are injected into muscle, not veins. And no standard childhood vaccine has included thimerosal (which is the source of mercury most touted by anti vaxxers) since the 1990s.

          And formaldehyde is a normal byproduct of human metabolism, with a pear providing multiple times the amount in the entire vaccine schedule.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Another “shooting …. in your child’s veins” anti-vaxxer that are claimed to be rare.

          Two for two in this thread.

        • Nick Sanders

          Well, since vaccines don’t do that, that’s a bit of a moot point, isn’t it?

        • LibrarianSarah

          Vaccines don’t go into peoples veins. How can you consider your opinion on vaccines the least bit informed about vaccines if you don’t even know how the are administered? Have you ever gotten a blood draw Camille? Did you notice that the needle for a blood draw goes through a different place than the needle for a vaccines?

        • Katia

          You seem to be afraid of needles.

        • Christopher Takagi

          composition/division fallacy

        • Sarah

          But of course, vaccination is not the same as shooting mercury and formaldehyde in your child’s veins either.

    • Bugsy

      My husband’s family lost an entire branch of the family in Nazi Germany. Thank you very much, but I’d prefer to not associate have their deaths abused by the anti-vax movement.

      • just me

        We lost a lot too.

        • Bugsy

          I wish disqus had a “dislike” button. It just isn’t fair…

          …and to have anti-vaxxers attempt to equate their problems to what my in-laws faced? Talk about a first-world, manufactured problem.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s got a little down arrow next to the up arrow. It just doesn’t display how many a post has gotten like it does with upvotes. I don’t know if it factors into the sorting by “best” option or not, either.

          • Who?

            Either way you can’t do it if you are not logged in so you guys will just have to take my upvotes as read.

            I think you know if I disagree I’ll say so!

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            No. Freaking. Kidding. re it being a first-world problem.
            And I hope my comment above was taken by you and others as it was meant–i.e., not at all lightly. I meant no disrespect at all in saying that most concentration camp inmates would have gladly welcomed, say, an effective typhus/typhoid vaccine. I hope that came across; sometimes tone of voice is really hard to convey over the internet.

          • Bugsy

            No problem, Keeper – I’ve seen you post on here a lot and would’ve been surprised if you’d meant any disrespect with your comments! I agree with you completely, the idea of a vaccination against killer diseases would have been welcomed in most places (including concentration camps). The idea that it was instead an attempt at killing off that population? Well, let’s just say that it’s ludicrous. But then again, it’s from Natural News…would we expect any different?

      • Camille

        Auschwitz, the largest German concentration camp of WWII, was the ideal “guinea pig” testing arena for dangerous pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines created by IG Farben (a very powerful cartel that consisted of German chemical and pharmaceutical companies such as BASF, Bayer, and Hoechst). Jewish prisoners of war would not be able to “sue” the government, so inhumane testing ensued. By vaccinating Jews, homosexuals, and anyone who denied the political views of the Nazi’s (including children), Hitler was isolating his “master race” by sickening, weakening, or killing opposition, with a passive and silent terror campaign through vaccinations and nerve gas. (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/economics/igfarben.html)

        Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036062_vaccines_Nazi_medical_experiments.html#ixzz3Ztl1TdXK

        • Bugsy

          Vaccination was the least of their worries, frankly. Next.

        • demodocus’ spouse

          Why bother killing by vaccination? They considered mass shooting as too slow to eliminate undesireables, which is why they started gassing people.

      • Willow Schwartz

        It’s called “Godwin’s Law.”

        “Godwin’s Law (or Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1. ”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

    • Keoki George

      “What hysteria trumped up by Big Pharma PR firms!!”

      big pharma would rather not make vaccines, since they don’t make that much money from them. So what is being “trumped” up here?

      I’ve never seen an advertisement for the MMR vaccine or flu shot. and all of these awareness campaigns come from doctors and scientists who have nothing to do with “big pharma”

      “You guys fell for it big time. In California we have a very high vaccination rate in our schools (97.47 percent),’

      Oh Camille, why are you lying by omission? Why did you ignore everyone who debunked this. Statewide vax rate is not at issue. ITS COMMUNITY based vax rate that matters. Care to tell us how a community can protect themseleves against an epidemic when their vax rate is 60% (when its been shown that herd immunity only works well, when its over 90%)?

      “Read the Nuremberg Codes please which talk about informed consent before any medical procedure.

      Oh Camille, only godwin users don’t understand Numrember codes. IT has nothing to do with VACCINES. and YOU do get informed concsent when you visti your doctor. EVERY DOCTORE in the STATE OF CALIFONIA. MUST PROVIDE A SHEET THAT TELLS YOU ABOUT THE VACCINES THEY ADMINISTER. tHIS SHEET CONTAINS ALL THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE VACCINE, INCLUDING ANY REPORTED REACTIONS AND POSSIBLE ADVERSE REACTIONS.

      The fact that you do not know this, shows how ignorant you are.

    • Tosca

      Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

      I have mentioned this a few times already. If you wish to argue the point under discussion, please do. We are unimpressed with your Civil Rights strawman.

      Oh, and under Godwin’s law…you just lost the argument by being the first to bring up the Nazis.

    • Nick Sanders

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/27/californias-epidemic-of-vaccine-denial-mapped/

      Edit: Also, I suggest your yourself read those Nuremberg Codes you are so keen on. You don’t seem to understand them.

    • just me

      Please, leave my state. Go to sub Sahara Africa where people would LOVE to have access to vax.

      • KeeperOfTheBooks

        Or northern Africa, where my DH works from time to time. He says, quite seriously, that if you walked through many of the cities and villages there with, say, a supply of the MMR vaccine, you’d end up mugged for it.

    • Fallow

      This is probably the most disgusting thing that anti-vaxxers do – compare their contrived “plight” to the atrocities of the Holocaust. You are a vile, vile little narcissist.

    • Christopher Takagi

      hey, there are no draconian laws here, only laws banning unvaccinated people from schools
      also, straw man fallacy and appeal to emotion

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Hmm…Measles infection increases children’s vulnerability to infections, including bacterial infections that need to be treated with antibiotics, possibly new and expensive antibiotices. The DPT, obviously, prevents bacterial infections that require expensive treatments with antibiotics and aggressive supportive care. The hepatitis B vaccine and HPV vaccine both prevent cancers, which, the alties keep telling us, is something that Big Pharma doesn’t want because it cuts into their sales of cancer drugs.

      It’s pretty clear who the Big Pharma shills here are: Those who would prevent people from being protected from immunsuppressive and oncogenic infections. The anti-vax movement must be a subsidiary of Ebil Big Pharma.

      See, I can play that game too. And with better evidence.

  • George G.

    Well I hope you all have kept up with your boosters, the vaccinations you got 30 years ago are no longer effective. The goverment is coming after the adults next so get ready!

    • Keoki George

      Uh yeah, and unicorns will fly out of my butt.

      • Bugsy

        Now that would be entertaining to watch!

        • Mishimoo

          I don’t know – there’s a youtuber that my daughter watches who says that “girls don’t poop, they unleash a unicorn into the bowl.”

    • Megan

      And I’m happy to get whatever vaccines I need if that did happen (which it won’t) because I like not being sick!

    • Ceridwen

      You will find that the vast majority of us are indeed up to date, including boosters. I personally get my flu shot every year, have been boostered for pertussis twice in the last 5 years and will receive another booster in ~August because I’m pregnant. I also pushed my doctor to go ahead and give me the Gardasil vaccine even though I was almost outside of the age range when it came out.

      • Roadstergal

        Yup, I’m fully vaccinated including annual ‘flu, current on all my boosters. Really, I should be severely autistic by now. Or should I be showing symptoms of heavy metal poisoning? Or allergic/asthmatic? I lose track of what Teh Scary Vaccines are doing today.

        • Who?

          Me too. Just had my fluvax on Saturday.

        • Mattie

          I don’t get my annual flu jab, mostly because I don’t qualify for the free one and don’t want to pay for it, I am currently awaiting an asthma test, ironically if I do have asthma I will begin having a free annual flu vaccine, because I am at increased risk of complications from flu. Even though if I have asthma I have it now, and have had it for the last few years so really nothing has actually changed, but I’ll still get the vaccine because I don’t want to knowingly increase my risk of complications and death…science is craayzy

      • Megan

        I electively get my Tdap every 5 years (more often counting pregnancy) because I work in healthcare. I get my flu vax as soon as it’s available every August. How wonderful that we all have the ability to prevent disease so easily! If only we could vaccinate against stupid…

        • Bugsy

          Well, pretty close to vaccinating against stupid by means of Darwinian Theory, should another large-scale measles outbreak occur….

          • Megan

            But how many infants, immunocompromised people, etc. would be collateral? It just makes me so exasperated. There really is no reasoning with these people!

          • Bugsy

            I completely agree – that’s the part that makes me mad, too. If they just took out themselves, that’s their choice. Taking out their innocent kids…infuriating. Taking out others who can’t get vaccinated? Also infuriating.

            The decision to not vaccinate does NOT affect them alone. When will anti-vaxxers get that through their heads?

    • Guestll

      It must be unpleasant to live in such a paranoid state.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      The MMR I got 42 years ago is still effective. Now what?

      • Julia

        It is not effective, as we have seen from recent outbreak.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Tell us, Julia, when did you study immunology? Wait, what? You never studied it? And you actually think you know what you are talking about? You haven’t got a clue.

          • Julia
          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            So what? Why do you believe her instead of the thousands of immunologists who disagree with her? How can you even assess whether what she writes is true? You can’t, can you?

          • Julia

            Wow, they delete unwanted comments! :))
            The deleted comment:

            Here is an open letter from
            Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD in Immunology
            http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/an-open-letter-to-legislators-currently-considering-vaccine-legislation-from-tetyana-obukhanych-phd-in-immunology/

            (Hope she has enough credentials to satisfy your demand:)

          • Julia

            Obviously the comments with links are censored.

            Google for a book of

            Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD in Immunology

            here are some points:

            IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus (see appendix for the scientific study, Item #1). Wild poliovirus has been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces. Please note that wild poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine, OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine. Despite being capable of preventing wild poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.

            Tetanus is not a contagious disease, but rather acquired from deep-puncture wounds contaminated with C. tetani spores. Vaccinating for tetanus (via the DTaP combination vaccine) cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is intended to render personal protection only.

            While intended to prevent the disease-causing effects of the diphtheria toxin, the diphtheria toxoid vaccine (also contained in the DTaP vaccine) is not designed to prevent colonization and transmission of C. diphtheriae. Vaccinating for diphtheria cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is likewise intended for personal protection only.

            The acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine (the final element of the DTaP combined vaccine), now in use in the USA, replaced the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the late 1990s, which was followed by an unprecedented resurgence of whooping cough. An experiment with deliberate pertussis infection in primates revealed that the aP vaccine is not capable of preventing colonization and transmission of B. pertussis (see appendix for the scientific study, Item #2). The FDA has issued a warning regarding this crucial finding.[1]

            Furthermore, the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters (see appendix for the CDC document, Item #3), meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.

            State Senator Elizabeth Steiner-Hayward of Oregon, sponsor of vaccine legislation

            Among numerous types of H. influenzae, the Hib vaccine covers only type b. Despite its sole intention to reduce symptomatic and asymptomatic (disease-less) Hib carriage, the introduction of the Hib vaccine has inadvertently shifted strain dominance towards other types of H. influenzae (types a through f).These types have been causing invasive disease of high severity and increasing incidence in adults in the era of Hib vaccination of children (see appendix for the scientific study, Item #4). The general population is more vulnerable to the invasive disease now than it was prior to the start of the Hib vaccination campaign. Discriminating against children who are not vaccinated for Hib does not make any scientific sense in the era of non-type b H. influenzae disease.

            Hepatitis B is a blood-borne virus. It does not spread in a community setting, especially among children who are unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors, such as needle sharing or sex. Vaccinating children for hepatitis B cannot significantly alter the safety of public spaces. Further, school admission is not prohibited for children who are chronic hepatitis B carriers. To prohibit school admission for those who are simply unvaccinated – and do not even carry hepatitis B – would constitute unreasonable and illogical discrimination.

            In summary, a person who is not vaccinated with IPV, DTaP, HepB, and Hib vaccines due to reasons of conscience poses no extra danger to the public than a person who is. No discrimination is warranted.

          • Nick Sanders

            I can see your link just fine. How is it being censored?

          • Julia

            More from from Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD in Immunology:

            How often do serious vaccine adverse events happen?

            It is often stated that vaccination rarely leads to serious adverse events. Unfortunately, this statement is not supported by science. A recent study done in Ontario, Canada, established that vaccination actually leads to an emergency room visit for 1 in 168 children following their 12-month vaccination appointment and for 1 in 730 children following their 18-month vaccination appointment (see appendix for a scientific study, Item #5).

            When the risk of an adverse event requiring an ER visit after well-baby vaccinations is demonstrably so high, vaccination must remain a choice for parents, who may understandably be unwilling to assume this immediate risk in order to protect their children from diseases that are generally considered mild or that their children may never be exposed to.

            State Senator Kevin Mullin of Vermont, sponsor of vaccine legislation

            Can discrimination against families who oppose vaccines for reasons of conscience prevent future disease outbreaks of communicable viral diseases, such as measles?

            Measles research scientists have for a long time been aware of the “measles paradox.” I quote from the article by Poland & Jacobson (1994) “Failure to Reach the Goal of Measles Elimination: Apparent Paradox of Measles Infections in Immunized Persons.” Arch Intern Med 154:1815-1820:

            “The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons.”[2]

            Further research determined that behind the “measles paradox” is a fraction of the population called LOW VACCINE RESPONDERS. Low-responders are those who respond poorly to the first dose of the measles vaccine. These individuals then mount a weak immune response to subsequent RE-vaccination and quickly return to the pool of “susceptibles’’ within 2-5 years, despite being fully vaccinated.[3]

            Re-vaccination cannot correct low-responsiveness: it appears to be an immuno-genetic trait.[4] The proportion of low-responders among children was estimated to be 4.7% in the USA.[5]

            Studies of measles outbreaks in Quebec, Canada, and China attest that outbreaks of measles still happen, even when vaccination compliance is in the highest bracket (95-97% or even 99%, see appendix for scientific studies, Items #6&7). This is because even in high vaccine responders, vaccine-induced antibodies wane over time. Vaccine immunity does not equal life-long immunity acquired after natural exposure.

            It has been documented that vaccinated persons who develop breakthrough measles are contagious. In fact, two major measles outbreaks in 2011 (in Quebec, Canada, and in New York, NY) were re-imported by previously vaccinated individuals.[6]–[7]

          • Julia

            (continuation)

            In summary: 1) due to the properties of modern vaccines, non-vaccinated individuals pose no greater risk of transmission of polio, diphtheria, pertussis, and numerous non-type b H. influenzae strains than vaccinated individuals do, non-vaccinated individuals pose virtually no danger of transmission of hepatitis B in a school setting, and tetanus is not transmissible at all; 2) there is a significantly elevated risk of emergency room visits after childhood vaccination appointments attesting that vaccination is not risk-free; 3) outbreaks of measles cannot be entirely prevented even if we had nearly perfect vaccination compliance; and 4) an effective method of preventing measles and other viral diseases in vaccine-ineligible infants and the immunocompromised, immunoglobulin, is available for those who may be exposed to these diseases.

            Taken together, these four facts make it clear that discrimination in a public school setting against children who are not vaccinated for reasons of conscience is completely unwarranted as the vaccine status of conscientious objectors poses no undue public health risk.

          • Nick Sanders
        • Nick Sanders

          The recent outbreak that mostly hit unvaccinated people, you mean?

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          No, it is still effective. I have to have my titers drawn to work in infectious disease labs. Nice of you to point out how little you know though. Do you have a link to the CDC considering adding a 3rd MMR? It is not ineffective because it is not in any way against different virus.

    • Keoki George

      Fully vaccinated.

      MMR booster 5 years ago> flu shot annually

    • Bugsy

      Fully up-to-date here. I get my flu shot annually, had TDAP immediately following my son’s birth in 2012 and have had my MMR titres checked earlier this year. Ditto for my husband and parents. Thanks for the concern!

      ETA: since becoming an adult, I’ve also been vaccinated against meningitis, Hep A, typhoid, polio, rabies and some other diseases endemic to areas in which I was traveling. Can’t forget those!

    • Guestll

      George, because of what I do for a living I’ve had more shots than the average person. I’ve had yellow fever, typhoid, Twinrix, and I received the MMR three times – not because of travel, because of immigration and my records being lost. My last Tdap was 2 years ago. I get a flu shot annually.

      I need to tell you though, after my yellow fever shot, I was hit by a car. I got up out of the chair at the travel clinic right after the shot and went outside to put more money in the parking meter. And BAM! I would also note that I was NOT hit by a car the following week when I returned for typhoid. I think it is apt to conclude that yellow fever immunization causes people to be hit by cars, wouldn’t you say?

      • Megan

        Oh totally! After my last Tdap my geothermal furnace failed. I know it was caused by my Tdap. Damned bigpharma, making a pregnant woman go without air conditioning!!

        • Guestll

          Please tell me you reported this to VAERS?

          • Bugsy

            Nah, she should have reported the entire _pregnancy_ to VAERS. You know, a side effect of the vaccine in advance of it…

          • Guestll

            That is AWESOME!

      • Roadstergal

        You know, after every vaccination I got as a child, my vocabulary, reading comprehension, math skills, and athletic performance all increased.

        • Guestll

          THIS IS A MIRACLE!!11!!

        • Bugsy

          VAERS, Roadstergal. You’d better get on reporting those side effects!

          • Roadstergal

            Hey, if Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc is good enough for the anti-vaxxers…!

        • Sarah

          I had an MMR booster as a 19 year old student, then went out and got stone cold drunk the same night. I bet the same was true for many of the hundreds of students who had it that day. Vaccination causes alcohol abuse. Fact.

    • Mishimoo

      Oh no, how awful. I will have to endure the brief pain of a needle instead of being sick for several days/weeks. I am able to garden without worrying about contracting tetanus. Truly, this is the worst idea ever!

      • Who?

        Horrifying, isn’t it?

        My husband had fluvax and dpt on the weekend, I don’t know why he isn’t rocking in a corner right now.

        • Mishimoo

          It’s the mind control *nods*

    • JJ

      I have! I am even getting the Tdap a few months to protect my unborn baby and I will receive an MMR booster at the hospital. I even had my varicella titers checked but I am all good there. My husband had his Tdap booster and my dad is getting one soon too. Lots of people are getting their pertussis boosters to help protect all the babies in our family and themselves.

    • I actually have because I couldn’t get my vax records to work in hospitals sooo I got everything a 2nd time in my 20s. I got the pertussis vaccine again after there was an outbreak of whooping cough in my state. gardisil. everything. If you can be vaccinated against it I am the first person in line usually lol (I was when the swine flu vaccine came out)

    • Tosca

      George, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I love it when anti-vax morons think they are being cute when they challenge us about our vaccination status. The response is, far and away, “Yeah, I’m up to date on mine.”

      Now slink away.

    • Fallow

      Like most pregnant women, I got my tetanus/pertussis/diphteria booster. I also got Pneumovax. I get the flu shot every year. I’ve even had the rabies shot, thanks to a stray cat.` And shit, my original MMR must have worked just fine, because my titers were run after I got pregnant and I was still immune.

      KANYE SHRUG

    • Nick Sanders

      Are they? That’d be nice. I can’t afford health insurance right now, or even spare the money for an office visit if I’m not really ill, so I’d certainly appreciate some free boosters.

      • Sarah

        Hope you manage to get that sorted out soon and you’re able to access all the vaccinations you need.

        • Nick Sanders

          Luckily, I think the only things I might need are my 10 year boosters, so few enough that they can be counted on one hand.

    • just me

      Good, I’ll be first in line!

    • Sarah

      I’d be absolutely delighted if they would, because that would mean I could get checks and any necessary boosters absolutely free. Because NHS.

      As it happens, I’m not sure I’d need any. Had a whooping cough booster and flu jab during my recent pregnancy, because I cared about the welfare of my foetus, and my rubella immunity was also checked and found to still be working. Good old MMR. I also had a tetanus booster not long ago after an unfortunate incident with an angry three legged dog (maybe it had been vaccinated). I was around someone with mumps a couple of years ago and don’t think I caught it, so that would appear to still be ok too. Could probably get the TB immunity checked out though. I don’t live at close quarters with anyone who might be at risk of catching it, but best safe than sorry.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Yep, fully up to date. I procrastinated on my flu shot one year and got the flu. Ugh! I’m first in line for it now. My measles and rubella titers are still high so no one thinks it worth redoing my MMR. I got a recent DPT after an outdoor climbing accident (no major damage but I did break my skin in soil so in goes the tetanus booster.) I recently got hep A vaccination because I travel a lot and don’t want hepatitis. My big problem is that I can’t convince anyone to give me the HPV vaccine. They all give me the “if you haven’t been exposed by 47 you’re too nerdy to ever get exposed” speech. I suppose they’ve got a point–mostly that I probably have been exposed even if I don’t show any signs of it–but really, what if I’m HPV naive and want to start having orgies at 80? Hmm?

    • KeeperOfTheBooks

      I’m up to date on my DPT, tittered immune to MMR and varicella per bloodwork during my recent pregnancy. I get the flu vax every year. I’ll continue to get ’em as suggested.

  • staceyjw

    I LOVE how those anti-vaxxers are SO concerned with the poor all of a sudden. NOW they give a crap about the low income families? Riiiight.

    I wonder if they are fighting for the rights of impoverished kids to have the same access to healthcare as they do? How about to attend those private schools where the rich and unvaccinated kids go? Are they trying to get them nice housing in gated communities, too? Are they fighting to make sure poor kids get as much healthy, organic, produce, and free range milk, meat, eggs, as their kids do?

    Of course they are not. They use the poor community as a foil, and exploit them in order to further their own agenda. What a shock.

    The only other time they care about the poor is when they want to keep them away from their insular, often gated, communities.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Their only concerned with the poor if they can exploit them in some way

      • Keoki George

        and when you demonstrate the poor is more likely to get vaccinated, they then turn around and say ‘they don’t matter!’

  • JSintheStates

    Thank you, Dr. Tuteur. I am not a resident of CA, but I sincerely hope this bill/initiative passes. I’ve always considered the people of California to be intelligent and thoughtful. We shall see…

    • mythsayer

      You’d be surprised. There are some seriously dumb people here.

  • I love how these stories will remain hotbeds of drama for *years* but homebirth deaths remain more or less static after a week or two.

  • George G.

    For the cattle, the sheeple in the world, educate yourself:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm refer to “Vaccine ingredients sorted by vaccine [3 pages]”
    http://www.traceamounts.com
    I dont know how you feel about is but I dont want: Aluminum, Formaldehyde, Monosodium glutamate (MSG),Thimerosal; a mercury-containing preservative injected straight into my blood stream not to mention;bovine extract, Vero (monkey kidney) cells, calf serum. Im sure you Vegan and vegetarian’s will appreciate these ingrediants.Take your blinders off and make an informed decision.

    • Guestll

      We have a live one!

      Can you please explain how vaccines are injected “straight into my blood stream”…

      • George G.

        a syringe, Is this a real question?

        • Guestll

          Yes, it is a real question, and the answer you provided indicates that you don’t understand how vaccines are administered. Intramuscular is not the same as intravenous. Vaccines are not injected into your bloodstream, George. You’ve bought into a common trope in the anti-vax community.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yes, it is a real question, and the answer you provided indicates that you don’t understand how vaccines are administered.

            “Those who question vaccines are, for the most part, well-informed” – paraphrasing the moron from the other thread.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Unfortunately none of their information is accurate.

        • its a muscular injection. They pull the plunger a little bit to make sure it is NOT going into your blood stream, though it is pretty rare to hit a vein on accident in the areas that the injections are given.

          • Mattie

            I think my Men C vaccine hit a nerve, I had severe pain all up my arm and in my neck, for like a day…it was really unpleasant, but I believe meningitis would be way worse so it was entirely worth it.

        • Guestll

          Here’s a page on routes of vaccine administration. You should note that none of the methods involve injecting anything “straight into my blood stream”

          http://vaccine-safety-training.org/route-of-administration.html

          • Who?

            I doubt GG is going to let a fact or two get through his tinfoil coating.

    • Sadly, no.

      Thanks for veering from the usual “sheeple”, though.

      • George G.

        Lol, I’m glad you appreciated it. I thought its was fitting

    • Roadstergal

      We have Scary Chemicals and Injected Directly Into The Bloodstream bingo!

    • demodocus’ spouse

      in your muscle, not your blood stream.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Why should anyone care about what you want? What medical or scientific training do you have?

    • Liz Leyden

      Have you ever taken care of someone with the aftereffects of measles-related encephalitis? How about post polio syndrome?

      • Keoki George

        My dad suffered from post polio syndrome. It shortened his life.

        • my grandpa has this too. He has to use oxygen all the time because his diaphragm muscles were damaged. He seems to be healthy outside of the damage from polio.

      • George G.

        No, I have not. Measles: an infectious viral disease causing fever and a red rash on the skin, typically occurring in childhood. Take some tylonal and some calamine lotion and call me in the morning

        • Megan

          And it also causes encephalitis and can cause death. Perhaps you should learn about the consequences of measles infection before you start giving medical advice.

        • Keoki George

          Yes, please tell that to the 450,000 children who died of Measles in 2013. I’m sure “tylonal (sic)” and calamine lotion would have helped in their situation (/sarcasm)

          • George G.

            in the United States in 2000 (1), importation of measles cases continues to occur. During 2001–2012, the median annual number of measles cases reported in the United States was 60 (range: 37–220), including 26 imported cases (range: 18–80). The median annual number of outbreaks reported to CDC was four (range: 2–16). Since elimination, the highest numbers of U.S. cases were reported in 2008 (140 cases) and 2011 (220) To update measles data, CDC evaluated cases reported by 16 states during January 1–August 24, 2013. A total of 159 cases of measles were reported during this period.
            Obviously these deaths where not in the US and have nothing to do with the issue

          • Guestll

            “Obviously these deaths where not in the US and have nothing to do with the issue” – Not in the US? Who cares, right? You realize that we live in an era of global travel, that measles is airborne and spreads like wildfire in areas with low/no immunity, and it has no animal reservoir? Meaning, just like smallpox, it’s entirely eradicable? You do understand that the period of contagion is up to 4 days prior to the rash, right?

          • Bugsy

            This. We’ve had two outbreaks this year here in Vancouver, both caused by travelers from China who were contagious on the trans-Pacific flights. I shudder to think how much more quickly the disease would spread if more people refused to vaccinate.

          • oognok

            George…any thoughts on why the number of measles cases (and related deaths ) in the U.S are so low?

          • Keoki George

            1 measles case is 1 too many george. since ITS PREVENTABLE!

          • Nick Sanders

            http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

            “Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.”

            “As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.”

            And those are just the common ones.

        • Liz Leyden

          SSPE can occur up to 10 years after exposure to measles.
          http://www.webmd.com/brain/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis

        • Who?

          Calamine is chicken pox, in case you decide your kids aren’t worth protecting against that as well.

          And why would I call you? I’d want to talk to someone with intelligence and empathy.

        • I’ve actually seen measles

          measles: a (highly) infectious viral disease causing fever >38.5 C, rash, coryza (runny nose), conjunctivitis (red eyes) and a cough. Also photophobia (can’t tolerate fluorescents, let alone sunlight) and a screaming headache for 7-10 days.
          That doesn’t include the complications of otitis media (earache – most people), pneumonia (4/100) and encephalitis (1/~500) with a 40% chance of permanent brain damage. Oh, and your healthy diet won’t prevent any of it, but might increase your chances of survival.
          Funny how some of us are willing to let our kids suffer because ‘it’s just a fever and a rash’.

          • KarenJJ

            Not that I’ve had measles but my immune system has given a lot of “just a fever and a rash”, plus deafness, joint problems and swollen optic nerves. Lovely lovely immune systems, you think they’re on your side and then BAM it’s attacking you because one of it’s proteins folds funny.

    • Keoki George

      since vaccines are not injected straight in to your bloodstream your post is nothing but a strawman.

    • lmao MSG? You are scared of MSG? Have you ever eaten nori or chicken before? They are loaded with the stuff.

    • You know what strikes me about this? These are people who are lucky enough not to need meds for a chronic condition. I’m going to be on meds for the rest of my life for a couple of reasons. How nice it must be to have such good health that you can be scared of chemicals.

    • Keoki George

      argument by package insert?
      argument by ingredients

      Does dose make the poison mean anything to you?

      • George G.

        The proof is in the peanut butter. You worry about trans fat and MSG in your tortillas but not about ingrediants in a shot that isn`t passing through your filtering system and giving your body a chance to clean out the toxins.

        • Megan

          Anything injected into the bloodstream (which is not vaccines- those are injected in muscle or subcutaneously) is filtered. That’s how the liver and kidneys work. Perhaps you should learn physiology before you take on medical professionals with your nonsense.

          Now, I think I will go have some Chinese food for dinner in your honor, George, because I’m not worried about s little MSG…

        • Keoki George

          What proof? you provided none

          I don’t worry about trans fats (they can actually be good for you, IN MODERATION) or MSG (because there is nothing wrong with this NATURAL flavor enhancer)

          Unlike you, I don’t fear food

          Ingredients in a ‘shot” doesn’t bother because I KNOW those chemicals because I UNDERSTAND science, and ACTUALLY listened to my high school chemistry teacher (who was WAY awesome!)

          Most of those “ingredients” you are fearful of? You ingest them naturally:
          aluminum is in EVERYTHING you eat, evein in the air you breathe
          ethyl mercury is not the same as methylmercury
          Formaldehyde is produced by your body naturally
          Sodium chloride is TABLE SALT.

          and unless you are consuming about 500 gallons of any specific vaccine a day, it poses no more threat to you than a UNICORN farting rainbows.

          • George G.
          • Keoki George

            infowars. really that ‘s your proof? guess you don’t understand what evidence actually is

          • Keoki George

            Your proof is a quack neo natal nurse who is into alternative medicine (so she has a vested interest in denying science), and from the conspiracy fear mongering con artist, Alex Jone’s website infowars

            you anti-vaxxers are not even trying to hide the fact that you believe in bullshit.

          • Christopher Takagi

            ad homenim attack

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Well, at least you are honest about having nothing.

          • Amy

            Yeah, no. You don’t get to call anything from Alex Jones “proof.”

          • Christopher Takagi

            genetic fallacy

          • Christopher Takagi

            appeal to authority

          • yugaya

            *false* authority

        • Roadstergal

          You know what does a bang-up job of filling your body with toxins? Vaccine-preventable bacterial infections…

          I’m not terribly worried about trans fat and MSG. Tasty, tasty MSG.

          • Keoki George

            He probably doesn’t realize that many foods naturally have MSG (milk, tomatoes, oysters, certain fish, potatoes, broccoli, mushrooms, eggs, beef, and walnuts to name a few)

          • Bugsy

            Lol, I do worry about MSG…but that’s because I do react to it with lovely headaches. Vaccines, on the other hand? Bring ’em on. Never had an issue with them!

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          Muscles have very good filtering systems. Try to learn a little science.

        • Who?

          I don’t worry about the trans fat or msg in the tortillas, I make my own. I’m a good cook, so that’s okay.

          On the other hand I am no scientist or health professional, so I take advice from those who are. Just like I wouldn’t cut my own hair, since I’d be terrible at it.

          • Nick Sanders

            I’d like to learn how to make a proper tortilla. I can cook so many things, but I’m not good at breads.

          • KarenJJ

            I’ve cooked these with some success. The whole family loves them. I’ve no idea how authentic they might be since a) I have never been to the US, let alone Texas, and b) I’ve never met anoyone from Texas. They do taste a lot like the fantastic Yeeros shop in Kalgoorlie from 15 years ago (best tortillas I’ve ever tried, above anything I had in the UK or Sydney), but once again that’s a really really long way from Texas.
            http://www.homesicktexan.com/2007/03/and-end-to-my-quest-flour-tortillas.html

          • Nick Sanders

            Thanks!

        • Tosca

          George, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

          Whether or not vaccines are dangerous (they aren’t) is a different discussion.

        • Nick Sanders

          “You worry about trans fat and MSG in your tortillas”.
          No I don’t. I have a big jar of MSG is my pantry. It’s delicious. Granted, the store only sold the one size, and a little bit goes so far that it’s taking me years to use it all up, but I’m totally glad I bought it.

        • namaste863

          Actually, I worry about neither. Least of all in my tortillas.

        • Christopher Takagi

          umm, no, if it gets in your blood, it goes through your kidneys, and liver, and so gets filtered

    • staceyjw

      The idiot that believes the biggest nonsense out there, and he calls us sheeple.
      These anti vaxxers would ben hilarious if they weren’t so dangerous.
      YES- there is a BIG CONSPIRACY, including every single doc, every single public health official, the whole government, and all of big pharma. GMAFB.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      I always love when people announce themselves as blind followers of internet con artists by using the word sheeple.

    • Tosca

      George, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health. Next.

    • Tosca

      Also, vaccines are injected intramuscularly, not intravenously. Learn the difference.

    • just me

      Actually, a very prominent animal rights org takes the position that, e.g., don’t stop insulin if you’re diabetic bc how it’s made. So my position is: push for non-animal sources, in the meantime take care of your health. We vegans need to be around to push for reform rather than die from preventable disease

    • Nick Sanders

      “Take your blinders off and make an informed decision.”
      Ok. I’ll keep getting my boosters then.

    • Sarah

      I quite understand why you don’t want them injected into your bloodstream, nor would I. But it’s ok, because when you’re vaccinated, the injection is into your muscles.

    • Christopher Takagi

      composition/divison fallacy

  • George G.

    This isn’t and shouldn’t be a Pro vs Anti- Vaccination issue. The issue here is that the government is trying to force they’re will on us for kick backs from the vaccine companies. There are many reason why people choose to vaccinate and not vaccinate, ultimately it should be our choice period. They control our food, our medical and now they want our kids.
    Just say NO to SB277!
    Also JJ, this is not going to pass because it would be Religious persecution. It goes against many religious convictions and Freedom of religion is one of the reasons the United States of America even exists.

    • Megan

      What about my right for my child to not be exposed to vaccine preventable illness in school? No one is saying you have to vaccinate. They’re just saying you’ll have to deal with the consequences of your actions. What an adult concept! It’s kind of like mandated auto insurance (if you don’t want it, fine, but you can’t drive) or laws against smoking in public places (you can still smoke but you’ll have to stand out in the snow). Why do anti-vaxxers think their rights matter more than everyone else’s or that they should to have consequences for their actions??

      • Megan

        *should not have consequences for their actions

      • Thank you.

      • Bugsy

        Yes!!!

    • No, the government is not trying to force their will on us for kickbacks. The drug companies are the ones making crazy insane amounts of money, paying next to zero taxes (if not taking outright gains thanks to loopholes), and monopolizing their goods.

      If you take umbrage with that, which is understandable, take it up with your local representatives. Your arguments are against monopolization and the infallibility of American businesses.

      As for freedom of religion, I don’t see any Amish or Mennonite populations freaking over this. That’s because they don’t vaccinate, but they’re also cloistered. While “leaks” do happen, they’re rare compared to those of people who choose not to vaccinate and then let loose through the public anyway.

      • Keoki George

        “hat’s because they don’t vaccinate, but they’re also cloistered.’

        actually, Amish do vaccinate, just not in the numbers you’d expect. After the Measles outrbreak in one of their parishes, they have now adopted vaccination as acceptable.

        • That’s fascinating, thank you.

          I live in an area with Amish and Mennonite populations, and “our” Amish don’t vaccinate. I can see those living in larger areas or those who are more in touch with the outside world doing so, though. The ones here are the sort who also die at home rather than visit English hospitals.

          • Roadstergal

            I have the feeling they’re not exactly kicking up a ruckus about not being allowed to use the public school system because of their vaccine status…

          • Yes, exactly.

        • LibrarianSarah

          It depends on the sect. Pennsylvania Amish are okay with vaccination but that might not be the same with Ohio Amish or other Amish groups. Each regional group has it’s own rules and it’s own interpretation of…damn I forgot the name but it is basically the rules all Amish agree to live by.

      • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

        NO they are really not cloistered, the Ohio Amish outbreak last year was started by two Amish men who went to the Philippines on a missionary trip. They brought back the measles and were misdiagnosed with Dengue fever (which is apparently not contagious) they went to church and Sunday school and spread the measles to there community. 377 cases.

        If one is going to take planes to countries with active outbreaks of VPD one needs to get vaccinated…

        http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/18/amish-countrys-forgotten-measles-outbreak.html

        • yugaya

          No need to travel outside of the country though, those two might as well hitched a ride to Disneyland with same devastating results.

    • Keoki George

      ‘kick backs from the vaccine companies.”

      care to back up this claim with Evidence?

      Here are some facts for you:
      Vaccines account for less than 8% of a pharmaceutical companies profits/earnings.

      You know what makes them money?

      Medical Supplies, patents/licensing, behavioral/mood, and sex related medicines and drugs.

      http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246

      Vaccines aren’t even in the top 10, and only 2 vaccines appeared in the top 100.

      Pediatricians of all the doctorial professions actually earn the LEAST . You know who makes the most money? Plastic Surgeons.

      • Yeah but Alex Jones 🙁

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      The issue is a moral issue. If anti-vaxxers claim the “right” to avoid vaccines because they believe them to be harmful, then the EXACT SAME right means that the rest of us have the right to avoid unvaccinated children.

      Logic is a bummer when it’s not on your side.

    • Keoki George

      “Also JJ, this is not going to pass because it would be Religious persecution.”

      bollocks

      Unless you are part of the Dutch Reformed Church, there is no mainstream religion that says vaccination is not allowed

      the POPE came out in favor of vaccinations, so Catholics cannot say “persecution’. YOUR religion allows it

      • Amy

        As in, still-in-the-Netherlands Dutch? My husband was raised in the Reformed Church in NY state as a kid, and is fully vaccinated. They’re a pretty mainline Protestant denomination from my experience with them.

    • the issue is the measles outbreak that happened in california and how much worse it will be next time it happens. That is why this bill happened. Too few people vaccinated and disease broke out.

    • staceyjw

      NEWS FLASH:
      *The big cash is in treating the diseases prevented by vaccines!*

      If you are worried about big pharma and their rampant profiteering, there are plenty of things to fight against. But vaccines? Those aren’t the problem.

      Seriously- LOL kickbacks for vaccines? You do realize that vaccines are not money makers, right- not for big pharma, nor hospitals, nor public health, nor doctors?

      Do you mean the vaccines that are so unprofitable few companies even produce them, and have to be financially induced in order to do so? THOSE vaccines?

      Look, I am as anti corporate, anti fascism as it gets, and I do know there is an unholy alliance between the government and big business that is a plague on the nation. However, this is one occasion where big pharma actually does produce something of value, that saves lives, and does not gouge the individual or the taxpayers.

      • George G.
        • Keoki George

          infowars is as credible as the oninon and michelle rowton should have her RN license revoked.

        • just me

          What is your actual evidence of kickbacks? There are ways to obtain such information if it exists: subpoenas, foia, various motions in court, etc.

          And hmmm, the vast majority of pedis are pro vax and the vast majority, maybe 100%, have NOT written a pro-vax book that they are making millions from. On the other hand , of the very few anti-vax pedis, several have made millions off their books. So hmm, who is more likely to be distorting the truth?

    • Who?

      Which religions? Here in Oz there are soon to be laws introduced requiring children to be vaccinated in order for their parents to receive certain tax benefits-all the mainstream religions are on board and have come out in support of vaccination.

      • Mishimoo

        I love this measure, but I am very frustrated by the attempt to take subsidised childcare away from single-income families. The get-set-for-prep program is so important and this may limit some families’ ability to access it (and they’re generally the ones that the kids would benefit the most from a good start to school).

        • Who?

          Yes it’s a mixed bag, no question. The whole daycare system needs a rethink, and I doubt the review they are working on will go far enough to deal with all the issues.

          I’d be more comfortable with a per child subsidy/tax break/something than all the means testing etc, which as you say probably marginalises many little ones who would benefit. If daycare is something that most people value-as opposed to being about freeing people up to go to work-it should at least be available, at a level deemed to be useful, to everyone.

          • Mishimoo

            It’s turning into a ridiculous mess and I’m becoming rather vexed with both major parties of the government. Guess those vaccines aren’t working after all. 😉

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          vaccine clinics could solve that problem

          • Mishimoo

            Oh, I was referring to another thing since Who? is also Australian and the new budget is getting a lot of airtime at the moment. Sorry for not being clear! Okay, so there’s a whole lot of changes that the current government is wanting to make to welfare payments. One of which is the financial incentive (or punishment, depending on viewpoint) to make sure that your kids are up-to-date with their vaccines. There are free vaccine clinics here, usually run out of a room at the library with a child health nurse in charge. We also have bulk-billing doctors (government paid) who have child health nurses as a part of the practice, who do vaccinations for free, or in the case of the flu vaccine for non-pregnant people under 65, fairly cheaply (We paid $10 each).

            One of the other proposed changes is to remove subsidised childcare from single income families. With the cost of daycare combined with the work opportunities for many women returning to the workforce (and the financial penalty for working more than 4 days a week), it often works out better for the mum collect Family Tax Benefit and stay at home until the kids are in school, which makes their family a single income family as the FTB is an untaxed means-tested payment. Being one of those families, without subsidised daycare for single income families, it will cost about 30% more for 2 days at kindy for our youngest than it costs us per year to send both of our older girls to a good private school. We can sort our house budget to afford that, but there will be many other families who can’t afford it and can’t afford to have both parents working, and their kids deserve just as good a start in school as everyone else.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Nonsense! A lot of states do not have personal belief exemptions. This is just the latest temper tantrum by the antivaxx brigade.

    • Tosca

      George, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

      No mainstream religion forbids vaccination.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Can you show me a book of religious teachings that forbids vaccination? Maybe Jehovah’s Witness, but I’m not even sure there.

      • Amy

        Nope, JWs just prohibit blood transfusions, using the laws of kashrut as their justification there. Other than that medical care is allowed.

        I think *maybe* Christian Scientists? Not 100% sure there, but I know they can use the “sincerely held religious beliefs” cop-out to avoid buying health insurance under Romneycare in MA and now the ACA. Although a quick Google search seems to indicate that they do allow vaccination.

    • Nick Sanders

      Kickbacks? Seriously? Do you know how little profit there is in vaccines?

    • Christopher Takagi

      strawman argument, bandwagon fallacy, appeal to emotion,

  • JJ

    I see a lot of talk about “forcing” anti-vax parents who are low-income into vaxxing because they cannot afford to homeschool. The thing is that it both ways. What happens when the unvaxxed kids give an immunocompromised/medically exempt kid in school these diseases? The parents will have to stay home for long periods of time to care for that child. Also, if the anti-vaxxers were not free riding on herd immunity they would be spending a lot of time at home caring for kids with diseases if we all decided to take their position.

    There are consequences to choices and SB277 is the right thing to protect kids in CA schools from the anti-science population.

    • demodocus’ spouse

      Most low-income parents would have trouble home-schooling, since staying at home is not typically an option. (Excepting those on disability) I wonder what the rate of poor would-be home-schoolers is.

    • Roadstergal

      I think of it like driving. You’re using a public resource (the roads) and therefore, you’re required to do certain things in the interest of protecting other users of that public resource (get licensed, carry insurance, abide by the rules of the road, etc). You’re more than welcome to not do those things – you just can’t use the public resource (drive on public roads) if so. Similarly, you’re free to make the misguided and anti-scientific decision to not vaccinate in the absence of a legit medical contraindication, but you’re not then free to use the public resource (schools) and put others in danger.

  • JJ

    I am in CA and I am so excited SB277 is going through. Some anti-vaxxers are talking about leaving the state over this. I should not have to be afraid to take my newborn to my children’s school events because of low vax rates. Getting vaccinated, in my opinion, is giving your children basic medical care.

    • Roadstergal

      “Some anti-vaxxers are talking about leaving the state over this”

      Oh, if only they would!

      • Megan

        Nooo! Then they might come to my state!

      • Keoki George

        they won’t have many options . Many states don’t even offer PBE’s.

    • Camille

      We don’t have low vax rates in this state. Our vax rates are 97+ percent. We don’t need forced vaccination bills. You being sold a bunch of lies by bigPharma.

      • JJ

        The problem is that there are pockets of very low vaccination rates leaving those areas vulnerable to the rapid spread of disease.

      • Keoki George

        smh

        we don’t have low vax rates in the state, but in some communities the VAX rate has dipped in to the 60% area.

        HERD Immunity only works well, when the vax rate IN A COMMUNITY is over 90%

        • Megan

          Poor Camille apparently doesn’t understand herd immunity, just like she doesn’t understand causation vs. correlation or what constitutes a peer reviewed scientific journal. She just regurgitates what her anti-vax blogs write. It’s so easy to repeat sound bites, much harder to look up primary research sources.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        97% vaccination rate in the state has nothing to do with personal community immunity. What good does 97% statewide vaccination do if the church you attend has a 60% rate or the school your children go to has a 75% rate. Also, no one is trying to force vaccines. You have been sold a bunch of lies by internet con artists looking to make money off of your irrational fears.

      • Lauren

        That makes zero sense. Big Pharma is getting 97% of the market in CA because of high vaccination rates….but are forcing through a bill to get 99% of the market? (exempting health exemptions)
        Sort of obvious you’re just peddling the ‘poor me I’m a victim ‘ bit that rationalizes unilateral hatred of anything corporate.

        • Monkey professor for a head

          According to Camille, “Big Pharma” is spending big money on bribing politicians in order to get a pretty small increase in vaccination rates. That doesn’t seem like the most worthwhile financial investment as far as I can make out.
          Think what you want about pharmaceutical companies and their ethics, but I’m pretty sure that they are far more likely to be motivated by money rather than just for the sake of being evil.

      • Christopher Takagi

        you aren’t being forced to vaccinate, you have the option of homeschooling

    • staceyjw

      LOL leave the state. They will probably come to Oregon. *Groans*

    • Kerlyssa

      If they did, they’d just end up with even lower vax concentrations in wherever they ended up, and outbreaks would be bigger and more frequent.

  • Camille

    From what I heard, your publicly schooled kid can get measles, whooping cough and chicken pox from RECENTLY vaccinated kids, and that is in fact more likely. Why is there this hysteria going on about the unvaccinated or under vaccinated? There is just NO reason for it except there is a PR campaign out there to make it seem like unvaccinated kids are this to society. It is pure hyperbole probably promoted by PR firms working for Big Pharma who stand to profit greatly from forced vaccination campaigns. Also, let’s look at the rates of asthma, allergies and autism in this country. Today 50 percent of our kids have some chronic health care issues. What has changed to bring this changes on? Some say the vaccine schedule is the problem as we’ve seen a dramatic increase in these health issues and they seem to correlated to the increased vaccine schedule. We are dumping more toxins into our kids bodies than they can handle? Parents should have the right to say no because informed consent is still the law.

    • Megan

      Please provide a citation that recently vaccinated children spread disease more readily than unvaccinated children. Even if that were true (and it isn’t), at least that would be temporary. Unvaccinated children are always vectors for VPI and weaken herd immunity. Herd immunity is why vaccination works.

      Also please provide a citation showing a link between a “toxin” in vaccines and any disase you listed. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. Breastfeeding rates have gone up as asthma, allergies and autism have gone up too but I am willing to bet you would not say breastfeeding causes those diseases.

      • Camille
        • Keoki George

          Nothing in your links supports the claim made in the article. In fact, they incorrectly used studies that weren’t about vaccination or the vaccinated.

        • Megan

          If that’s the best you can come up with I am still very much keeping my pro-vaccine position. You’ll need a peer reviewed paper showing actual causation. Good luck finding it…

          • Camille

            Gee, how many do you need?

            http://www.vaccines.net/newpage11.htm

          • Keoki George

            anti-vax site? really you aren’t even trying.

          • Keoki George
          • Megan

            You have yet to provide a peer reviewed journal article showing causation and not mere correlation. Perhaps you don’t undersand the difference? Again, breastfeeding rates have risen as autism rates have risen but I’m sure you wouldn’t claim that breastfeeding causes autism. See the difference?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            We need maybe a single reliable source. You might liked to be lied to, but we don’t.

      • Camille

        “A massive increase in immunization has occurred. In the United States for example since just 1999 children are scheduled to routinely receive over 80 additional vaccines over their childhood. The increase in immunization has been followed by a huge increase in inflammation associated disorders like autism.” (1)

        http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/06/05/children-receive-80-vaccinations-throughout-childhood-new-study-links-vaccine-induced-overload-to-autism/

        • Keoki George

          Collective evolution is your source? Are you kidding?
          The studies, not the cherry picked crap on that site supports no causal linkage between vaccines and Autism

          autism rates have gone up because WE Expanded our definition. 10 years ago, those with autism would have been considered ADHD, Bipolar, or have other mental issues.

          • Camille

            Measles Live Virus Vaccine: (Attenuvax) Made by Merck. Two injections are given; one at 1 year and another at 4 years old. Contains gelatin, sorbitol, sodium chloride, bovine cow serum, egg protein and human albumin.

            Measles and Mumps Live Virus Vaccine: (M-M-Rvax) Made by Merck. Injected into one year old babies. Contains gelatin, sorbitol, sodium chloride, bovine cow serum, and human albumin.

            Diptheria, Tetanus and Polio Vaccine: Five injections given between 2 and 6 years of age, plus boosters “recommended” every 10 years. Contains formaldehyde, phenoxyethanol and aluminum phosphate.

            DTaP, IPV, HBV and Hib*: (Diphtheria, tetanus, polio, hepatitis B and Haemophilus influenza type B) Given to infants 2 to 12 months with boosters less than a year later. Contains aluminum hydroxide, formaldehyde, and bovine cow serum.

            Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035431_vaccine_ingredients_side_effects_MSG.html#ixzz3ZrXFr2BU

            http://www.naturalnews.com/035431_vaccine_ingredients_side_effects_MSG.html

          • LibrarianSarah

            So your argument is essentially “OMG Chemicals!” and “Things I don’t understand BAD!.” Okay then.

            Also natural news is not a valid source.

          • Camille

            I guess everything that goes against BigPharma doctors and talking points is not a valid choice in your department.

          • LibrarianSarah

            It’s not that I always support BigPhama but I do always oppose BigPlacebo. Would you like me to dig up photos of Mike Adam’s palatial mansion for you? How many “supplements” has he sold you?. The fact that you don’t even know where to find accurate information on this issue just shows your own ignorance. You have been suckered by hucksters that stroked your ego in making you believe that you are smarter than all the “sheeple.” It’s kind of sad really.

          • Camille

            Read Nuremberg Code. You can’t force medical procedures on people. The Nazis did that.

          • LibrarianSarah

            So now you are moving goalposts and changing topics because you can’t argue the facts and by insinuating that people who disagree with you are NAZI’s too. Actually, you are making a good argument against this bill because you are certainly not equipt to educate your own children.

          • Nick Sanders

            Did you really just compare vaccinations to the Nazi medical experiments with a straight face? Wow.

            Also, the Nuremberg Code applies to experiments, not mainstream treatments.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No one is forcing you to vaccinate. Making it a requirement to enjoy a service is not “forcing.” Holding you down and giving you an injection you didn’t consent to is forcing. You seem to be having trouble with word definitions.

          • Keoki George

            wow, you godwin-ed . didn’t take long

            and no the Nuremberg code doesn’t support anti-vaxxers

          • Keoki George

            And you’re not the first anti-vaxxer to try and justify your stance

            http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/rate-movie-stars-anti-vaccine-lunatic-fringe/

            He invokes Godwin’s Law by mentioning the Nazi Nuremberg Laws, which makes no sense. It would take some twisted logic to get from vaccines to Nazi laws that stripped citizenship from Jews. He might have meant the Nuremberg Code, which establishes the set of ethical principles for medical experimentation that arose from Nazi treatment of individuals in concentration camps during World War II. It is a Strawman Argument to compare vaccines, which are only approved through ethical clinical trials, to Nazi horrors. Give me a break.

          • Sarah

            Also, you can force medical procedures on people, in certain limited circumstances. For example if they don’t have capacity and you have a court order.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No one is forcing medical procedures and you just proved you have nothing by argumentum ad hilterum.

          • Keoki George

            or just plain old godwin

          • Tosca

            Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

            Also, bringing up the Nazis means you just lost the argument

            http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

          • Christopher Takagi

            we’re not trying to, and we’d fight against any bill that advocated that
            what we are doing is exercising our right to keep our kids from what we view as harmful, unvaccinated kids, in much the same way that you are trying to keep your kids from what you think is harmful , vaccines

          • Sia

            The Nuremberg code is a set of RESEARCH ETHICS. It is nothing to do with established medical procedures.

            To give you a hint: It was written for people like Joseph Mengele.who did such things as kick a pregnant women repeatedly in the stomach to see how long it took to lose the pregnancy.

          • Keoki George

            Yet you use two sources that sell “supplements” that “cures” anything you can think of, without any of the same scrutiny

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            No, everything that goes against reality is not a valid choice.

          • Christopher Takagi

            vaccines do have those, but what is not mentioned is that it is lower doses than what is in you right now

          • Roadstergal

            Do you know what else contains formaldehyde and is inside of your baby? Cells. Millions of them! They crank out formaldehyde every second.

          • Sarah

            And pears. I assume Camille also foregoes those?

          • Katia

            Hopefully gelatin, too. No more “Jello Jigglers” for her! Sorbitol? No more sugarless gum, either.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Or berries which all contain sorbitol

          • Keoki George

            So you use another anti-vax website? YOU ARE NOT EVEN TRYING!

          • Liz Leyden

            Natural News? Really?

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I know, there should be an internet law like Scopie’s law for using Natural News as a reference.

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, NatNews cites whale.to, so Scopie’s Law by induction?

          • Tosca

            Camille, read the article again. No one is advocating forced vaccinations. The policy under discussion regards preventing unvaccinated children from attending public schools, where they pose a major risk to public health.

          • Christopher Takagi

            oh noo, a natural byproduct of metabolism, sunscreen, and some phosphate salts, all at lower doses than found in all my blood
            soo scary, better go get paralyzed for life

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Nothing like poor sources to confirm your already held beliefs

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