Vote YES on SB277: if anti-vaxxers are allowed to avoid vaccines, the rest of us should be allowed to avoid anti-vaxxers

Yes SB277

Anti-vaxxers, help me out here. There’s something I don’t understand.

You have been aggressively campaigning against California Senate Bill 277 introduced in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak. SB277 would do away with personal vaccine exemptions, meaning that all children would be required to be fully vaccinated in order to go to public or private schools. The only exemptions allowed would be medical exemptions for allergy to vaccine ingredients or history of a serious adverse reaction to vaccines.

According to the website No on SB277:

Those children who are not completely up-to-date on every state mandated vaccine will be denied a public education ” SB 277 impacts children in private or public elementary or secondary school, child care center, day nursery, nursery school, family day care home, or development center.” SB 277, would eliminate a parent’s right to exempt their children from one, some, or all vaccines, a risk-laden medical procedure…

There’s even a handy little image to put the point across:

Risk choice

Or as the website insists:

Where there is a risk of injury or death, no matter how small the perceived risk may be, there must be a choice.

That’s pretty straightforward and easy to understand, but here’s the part I don’t understand (stick with me here, because this is intellectually tricky):

If you believe that you should be able to avoid vaccinating your children because you consider vaccines dangerous, shouldn’t everyone else in California be able avoid your unvaccinated children because they consider them dangerous?

Children who haven’t been vaccinated pose a risk because they can carry and spread vaccine preventable diseases. How big a risk? That doesn’t matter, right? It doesn’t matter how small the perceived risk may be, there must be a choice.

Shouldn’t you be voting FOR SB277?

When it passes, you will be able to exercise your right to protect your children from vaccines no matter how small the perceived risk may be and everyone else will be able to exercise their right to ban your children from schools no matter how small the perceived risk may be. Everyone will be happy!

Wait, what? You disagree??

Since education is compulsory, opting for no schooling will not be an option.

Duh! That’s the whole point of SB277. Since education is compulsory, despite the fact that your children pose a health threat to the majority of children, their parents are forced to expose them to the threat.

According to you and your anti-vax compatriots:

Risk choice

If there’s a risk, there must be a choice!

Your children pose a risk, and the rest of us have made our choice: you can’t send them to school unless they are fully vaccinated!

That’s why we (and you!) should be encouraging a YES vote on SB277.

Anything else would be astounding hypocrisy on your part, right?

Right??!!

1,466 Responses to “Vote YES on SB277: if anti-vaxxers are allowed to avoid vaccines, the rest of us should be allowed to avoid anti-vaxxers”

  1. July 23, 2016 at 11:41 am #

    And…this needs to do the rounds again.

  2. May 28, 2016 at 6:06 am #

    This needs to be seen again.

  3. Vacunas Autismo
    January 15, 2016 at 12:25 pm #

    Vaccinated kids are festering cesspools of B. parapertussis, keep them in a celler behind a concrete door with 7 locks.

    Proof:

    http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopses/acellular-vaccine-enhancement-b.-parapertussis

    Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization

    An acellular whooping cough vaccine actually enhances the colonization of Bordetella parapertussis in mice; pointing towards a rise in B. parapertussis incidence resulting from acellular vaccination, which may have contributed to the observed increase in whooping cough over the last decade

    And they are actively spreading the disesase to this very day:

    01/14/2016 – Whooping Cough Outbreak In FL Leads To Vaccine Investigations

    • Nick Sanders
      January 15, 2016 at 3:13 pm #

      Too late, the bill already passed. You lost.

      • Vacunas Autismo
        January 15, 2016 at 4:09 pm #

        You give up your freedoms, you lose. I live in Holland where kids with chickenpox are encouraged to attend school, so go figure.

        • Nick Sanders
          January 15, 2016 at 4:32 pm #

          I gave up no freedoms, and lost nothing.

        • demodocus
          January 15, 2016 at 4:46 pm #

          My gramma survived measles, you can too!

        • yugaya
          January 15, 2016 at 4:47 pm #

          “I live in Holland where kids with chickenpox are encouraged to attend school”

          Ya, sure they are, so that they can catch it naturally and look forward to this:

          “From a representative sample of varicella admissions in the Netherlands, complications were recorded in 76% ofthe patients. Bacterial super infections of skin lesions (28%), dehydration (19%), febrile convulsions (7%),pneumonia (7%) and gastroenteritis (7%) were most frequently reported. In a third of the hospitalised cases with complications, severe complications occurred.” http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/Varicella-guidance-2014-consultation.pdf

          • Vacunas Autismo
            January 15, 2016 at 5:11 pm #

            In-hospital complications work like this:

            Mild childhood disease -> scared parents -> hospital -> overmedication -> iatrogenic complications (including hospital pneumonia blamed on varicella/measles/whatever) -> bad name for varicella.

            Lessons to be learned:
            1. don’t use hospitals for mild diseases.
            2. hospital problems are mainly iatrogenic, therefore not valid epidemiological data for mild diseases.

          • yugaya
            January 15, 2016 at 5:39 pm #

            My country has over 99% vaccination rates. Varicella vaccine is still not part of mandatory vaccination schedule, but I happened to be stuck for a week on largest infectious diseases hospital’s children’s ward last year, and it was choke full of toddlers brought in from all over the country with severe complications. The same ward is filled with posters and materials from health authorities promoting vaccines that are still optional. Because they see the consequences of “just catching good old chicken pox like our ancestors did” every day. Thus that vaccine is soon to be added to the set of public health measures in my country that keep our children safe from preventable suffering, lifelong damage and death.

            “t works like this:

            Mild child disease -> scared parents -> hospital -> overmedication -> iatrogenic complications (including hospital pneumonia) -> bad name for varicella.”

            Wow, where and when did you get your relevant degree and publish your scientific research into causes of varicella complications in The Netherlands? I would sure love to read such expert opinion in more detail.

          • Nick Sanders
            January 15, 2016 at 5:47 pm #

            You quoted the background section of the abstract to prove your point. Maybe you should read the actual paper?

            In the Netherlands [5], the number of varicella related consultations of a general practitioner (GP), hospital admissions and/or deaths per 100,000 inhabitants is low compared with other countries (pre-vaccine area), such as the United States [2], England and Wales [6-8] and Germany [9]. In England and Wales, where the health care system is most comparable to the Dutch situation, there were 507 GP-consults in the period 2001-2007 [6], 5.8 hospital admissions (based on data for England only) in 2000/2001-2008/2009 [7] and 0.038 deaths in 2000-2008 [8] per 100,000 inhabitants annually, which is roughly twice as much as the 238 GP-consults, 1.6 hospital admissions and 0.018 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants in the Netherlands in the period 2000-2008. It is not clear to what extent these differences can be ascribed to regional differences in the epidemiology of VZV, considering the fact that the mean age of infection in the Netherlands was lower than in England and Wales according to seroprevalence studies [10]. Other reasons might be differences in national surveillance systems, the health care system or health care seeking behavior. If these differences could be attributed to differences in the health care system or health care seeking behavior, which is in general more conservative in the Netherlands, there would be a possibility that Dutch hospitalizations due to varicella concern more severe cases than in other countries.In the Netherlands [5], the number of varicella related consultations of a general practitioner (GP), hospital admissions and/or deaths per 100,000 inhabitants is low compared with other countries (pre-vaccine area), such as the United States [2], England and Wales [6-8] and Germany [9]. In England and Wales, where the health care system is most comparable to the Dutch situation, there were 507 GP-consults in the period 2001-2007 [6], 5.8 hospital admissions (based on data for England only) in 2000/2001-2008/2009 [7] and 0.038 deaths in 2000-2008 [8] per 100,000 inhabitants annually, which is roughly twice as much as the 238 GP-consults, 1.6 hospital admissions and 0.018 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants in the Netherlands in the period 2000-2008. It is not clear to what extent these differences can be ascribed to regional differences in the epidemiology of VZV, considering the fact that the mean age of infection in the Netherlands was lower than in England and Wales according to seroprevalence studies [10]. Other reasons might be differences in national surveillance systems, the health care system or health care seeking behavior. If these differences could be attributed to differences in the health care system or health care seeking behavior, which is in general more conservative in the Netherlands, there would be a possibility that Dutch hospitalizations due to varicella concern more severe cases than in other countries. Therefore, a medical record research was conducted among hospitalized patients with diagnosis varicella. This article presents the results of this study.

            The whole point of the study was to find out why the numbers were different, and no, the conclusion was not that the Dutch system is “demonstrably better”.

          • Megan
            January 15, 2016 at 6:46 pm #

            And it specifically says they are being compared to other countries in pre-vaccine era. I can count on one hand the number of cases of chickenpox I have seen in my short career, as I have never practiced prior to routine vaccination for chickenpox.

        • Who?
          January 15, 2016 at 6:54 pm #

          All your freedoms.

          The most boring argument in the world. Selfish, shallow and vain.

          The only consolation is your children have half your genes, so whether nature or nurture is the key to their future, they will be dulled to the misery all rights and no responsibilities will inflict on them and those around them.

          Since others have read and explained the report you so gleefully quoted, you will now disappear into whatever backward hole you popped out of.

          Thanks for playing though!

  4. thevaccinemachine
    June 12, 2015 at 2:07 am #

    Yes, you can stay in your house and avoid people

    • Nick Sanders
      June 12, 2015 at 2:43 am #

      How about you do that instead?

      • thevaccinemachine
        June 12, 2015 at 1:59 pm #

        I’m not the one afraid of germs

        • Nick Sanders
          June 12, 2015 at 3:21 pm #

          You’re just the one expecting the benefits of society without taking the accompanying responsibilities.

          • thevaccinemachine
            June 12, 2015 at 3:55 pm #

            What responsibilities? Where do they come from? Why do I have them?

          • Nick Sanders
            June 12, 2015 at 9:43 pm #

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

          • thevaccinemachine
            June 13, 2015 at 3:30 pm #

            I don’t recall signing that contract

          • Nick Sanders
            June 13, 2015 at 3:41 pm #

            Well, you somehow learned enough about English and computers and the internet to make it to this blog and whine, so you must have at some point, unless you were raised in a sealed bunker.

          • thevaccinemachine
            June 13, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

            Sorry, that makes no sense

          • Nick Sanders
            June 13, 2015 at 4:19 pm #

            You’ve clearly participated in and benefited from society, therefore, you’ve “signed” the social contract. If you want out, you’re free to leave society, otherwise, quit refusing to hold up your end of the bargain.

          • Alisha
            June 20, 2015 at 5:57 am #

            Hahaha. For real!

  5. Alisha
    June 3, 2015 at 6:18 am #

    Duh! You obviously haven’t done your research. First off, the measles outbreak at Disneyland can hardly be called an outbreak. 177 cases out of millions of people is hardly an outbreak. I am 100% unvax’d, I am 43 years old and perfectly healthy. I have had the measles as have many in my generation and the generations before me and the measles is not a deadly god damn disease. More deaths occur from the vaccine than the minor illness they lead you to believe is deadly and less than half that contracted the illness from Disneyland were unvax’d. Which plain and simply goes to show vaccines are a crock.

    Do a little research and reporting on vaccine induced illness and vaccine virus shedding and see how the vaccinated spread disease and then get back to me! Vaccine inserts clearly state that newly vaccinated individuals need to be, essentially, quarantined for 6 weeks because THEY PASS DISEASE! So save me the crap that my perfectly healthy kid is any risk to you! I am perfect example that in 43 years of my unvax’d life, I have posed no threat to anybody yet vaccines kill babies daily!!!!!!!!

    • Monkey Professor for a Head
      June 3, 2015 at 6:50 am #

      I’m sure you’d be happy to help people here do their research by posting links to reputable sources of evidence which support your claims. You seem pretty confident in what you are saying, so that should be easy, right? By the way, links to anti vaccination websites and anecdotes are generally not accepted as reputable sources of evidence on this website, or indeed by the scientific community in general.

    • Nick Sanders
      June 3, 2015 at 6:51 am #

      177 cases in what time frame? Something like two months? That’s nearly as many as there were in the entire year of 2013, and two or three times as many cases as there were in 2012.

      And if you had actually done research, you’d know shedding is not something that happens.

    • MaineJen
      August 21, 2015 at 7:17 pm #

      “measles is not a deadly god damn disease” STOP. Just stop. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

      • Roadstergal
        August 24, 2015 at 1:48 pm #

        I recently dug out my two favorite Sarah Vowell books so I could enjoy them again. She mentions in Unfamiliar Fishes that Liholiho, aka King Kamehameha the second, and his consort Kamāmalu died of measles after a trip to Europe. All of the organic, non-GMO living that they did in Hawaii helped them not one bit.

  6. jjj
    May 24, 2015 at 12:59 am #

    Why are you afraid of non-vaccinated children if these vaccines you want to take are so wonderful and work so well to keep you healthy?????????????????? Explain that.

    • Montserrat Blanco
      May 24, 2015 at 1:54 am #

      You could start here:

      http://www.who.int/wer/2009/wer8435.pdf?ua=1

    • Monkey Professor for a Head
      May 24, 2015 at 2:15 am #

      Well that’s easy.
      1) While vaccination gives good protection, it’s not 100%. Those few people who do not develop immunity following vaccination should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.
      2) Children who are too young to be vaccinated should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.
      3) Some people are unable to receive vaccines for medical reasons. Those people should not be put at risk by those who choose not to vaccinate.

      Is that the best you can do? Do you think you have any arguments against vaccination that hasn’t been raised (and thoroughly disputed) in the preceding 1300+ comments.

    • Box of Salt
      May 24, 2015 at 3:01 am #

      jjj “Why are you afraid of non-vaccinated children”

      I’m not afraid OF non-vaccinated children. I’m afraid FOR non-vaccinated children: http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine
      The paper (Science – paywalled) is linked within the NPR writeup.

      http://www.healthline.com/health/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis#Overview1

      Increased mortality following measles infection plus the risk of an always-fatal complication – completely preventable by a vaccine.

      And that’s just one disease.

      • Box of Salt
        May 24, 2015 at 3:10 am #

        Plus, keeping track of unvaccinated folks while the disease is spreading costs money:

        http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/747.abstract

        That’s about the 2008 San Diego outbreak imported from Switzerland. That outbreak was relatively small. Just wait until we run the numbers for 2015 related to Disneyland.

      • Alisha
        June 20, 2015 at 5:40 am #

        Read the above study I sent to Nick! About how ur “completely preventable disease by vaccine” killed a child because he got the effin disease from the vaccine. I’ll take measles any day. Ya’ll are a scared of a little rash. I’m a whole hell of a lot more scared of the neurotoxins and putrid matter in vaccines and if u think pharma’s only mission is ur health and not their profits -then ur fools and should be vaccinated. Maybe they’ll soon have a vaccination for naivety! Are u all ready for the 200+ more vaccines coming from pharma. Hold out ur arms guinea pigs!

        • Nick Sanders
          June 20, 2015 at 11:54 am #

          And that’s literally the only time that’s ever happened. Meanwhile, catching the measles “naturally” used to kill a few hundred people a year, even with the best medicine available.

        • Poogles
          August 24, 2015 at 1:08 pm #

          I get vaccinated every year for flu season. I am excited and grateful for every new vaccine. Funny how I don’t have any scary illnesses or reactions that you anti-vaxxers like to promote as almost an inevitability; neither do any of the people I personally know who are up to date on their vaccines.

    • Camille
      May 25, 2015 at 2:26 pm #

      You will discover “jjj” that this board is filled with people who if not PR shills for BigPharma are at least spewing their talking points verbatim. So, what is it guys, first you say that the unvaccinated are “disease vectors” and “ticking time-bombs” and then you say that they won’t spread disease to the vaccinated because the vaccinated are safe. So, why worry? Your phony sincerity that you care about the unvaccinated is simply BS and another talking point. By the way, more people died of the measles vaccine than measles itself. In ten years there has been no reported deaths in the U.S. but the VAERS database reports 108 deaths due to the measles vaccine.

      • Nick Sanders
        May 28, 2015 at 3:07 am #

        How many deaths per year were there from measles before the vaccine is the number you should be looking at.

        • Alisha
          June 3, 2015 at 6:20 am #

          And those numbers are taken from 3rd world countries currently. Those countries that have no access to clean water, nutritious food and proper sanitation. Puh-lease, measles is a minor rash.

          • Nick Sanders
            June 3, 2015 at 6:43 am #

            What part of “before the vaccine” did you miss? In the years immediately prior to the introduction of the measles vaccine, there were more deaths in the USA each year than the total number Camille is saying have been reported to VAERS from the vaccine in ten years. And VAERS reports are unconfirmed.

            But please, enjoy the “mild rash”:

            http://www.kidshealth.org.nz/sites/kidshealth/files/images/Measles%20boy%20sideview.jpg

          • Alisha
            June 19, 2015 at 5:02 pm #

            I did enjoy it already and I have life immunity. No big thing!

            http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article24913978.html

            Non vaccinated children are perfectly healthy and if ur vaccines worked u wouldn’t fret. Don’t forget, ur vax’d kids shed virus and pass disease more than a healthy unvax’d child with no disease. At least my kid isn’t a walking cesspool of viruses.

          • Nick Sanders
            June 19, 2015 at 11:53 pm #

            You are completely full of shit. Quit wasting my time.

          • Alisha
            June 20, 2015 at 5:32 am #

            Nah, ur a joke. U aren’t worth my time. U have nothing valid to debate and u know I’m right. Virus shedding is a real thing and u just can’t handle the truth because u don’t doubt research and u follow the masses. Go read a fucken insert. Or CDC’s page. They produce the shit and even they say I’m right. Vaccinated, virus-carrying kids pass disease. Get over it. Here’s a nice “SCIENTIFIC” study for ya!

            http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/4/855.short

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            June 21, 2015 at 10:28 am #

            Um…the article you linked to was about a child with an undiagnosed immunodeficiency syndrome who became ill from the weakened virus in the MMR. It has nothing whatsoever to do with “shedding”. Furthermore, it simply demonstrates that some children are immunosuppressed and therefore not candidates for vaccination. Which is one of the reasons that it is important for healthy children to be vaccinated: to protect those who can not be vaccinated or in whom the vaccine will fail due to poor Ig function.

            Of note, “natural” meales results in SSPE far more frequently than the vaccine does and this child would almost certainly have died if he had been exposed to measles.

          • Roadstergal
            August 24, 2015 at 1:53 pm #

            Come on, everyone knows that children with undiagnosed immunodeficiency syndromes do very well when infected with non-attenuated, full-strength ‘natural’ viruses by unvaccinated peers. Because that’s what immunodeficiency does – it makes it really hard to react to weakened viruses or inactive bits of viruses, but super-easy to mount an effective immune response to actual viruses and bacterial toxins.

            Honestly, anti-vaxxer logic. “My financial status makes it very difficult for me to afford an older Honda Civic, so instead of relying on public transit, I’m going to buy a new BMW.”

          • Mattie
            June 20, 2015 at 4:04 pm #

            So why do you want your children in a place with a bunch of “walking cesspools of viruses”? Really SB277 is your get out of jail free card, it gives you a perfect excuse to keep your precious children away from all the unsanitary shedding vaccinated kids.

          • Alisha
            June 20, 2015 at 6:17 pm #

            Go fuck urself. I have no choice. Just as u have no choice to be around unvaccinated. Dipshit

          • Roadstergal
            August 24, 2015 at 6:22 pm #

            You do have a choice. Shockingly enough, despite your lack of ability to spell or reason, you could, legally, homeschool.

          • Alisha
            August 25, 2015 at 12:23 am #

            And so can you smart ass!

          • Who?
            August 25, 2015 at 12:34 am #

            So pure in what they will put into the body, so profane in how they express themselves.

            This paradox fascinates me: the vulgar as pure vessel.

          • LibrarianSarah
            June 20, 2015 at 5:17 pm #

            For someone who claims to be so “educated” and “informed” you sure as hell have a lot of trouble spelling out a 3 letter word.

          • Alisha
            June 20, 2015 at 6:16 pm #

            Haha-ha fucken ha! Get a life. I spell just fine. I choose to use the words and spell them the way I want. U got what I intended to say! Save ur petty insults cuz they are a lame effort!

          • momofone
            August 24, 2015 at 1:28 pm #

            Good comeback! You really told her!

          • Poogles
            August 24, 2015 at 1:28 pm #

            “I did enjoy it already and I have life immunity. No big thing!”

            Well lucky for you…not everyone is so lucky:

          • Alisha
            June 20, 2015 at 6:05 am #

            It’s not confirmed because doctors are blinded by the money the pharma sales reps shove in there pockets. Go check propublica.org. It’s a nice little website so people with brains can go see if their doctor(s) have rec’d financial benefits from pharma to push their poison!

          • Nick Sanders
            June 20, 2015 at 11:48 am #

            So you claim the CDC is lying? Because that’s where I got my numbers.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            June 21, 2015 at 10:21 am #

            Um…no. I’ve been an MD for >20 years and had Big Pharma offering me everything from pens to “conferences” (that consist of one or two talks in exotic locations followed by lots of time for “discussion” on the beach)*. Never once, not ever, has a single vaccine been mentioned in any discussion a pharma rep has ever had with me.

            Frankly, I wish that Big Pharma would push their vaccines harder: cervical cancer is unpleasant, head and neck cancer worse, and hepatoma downright gross–and the risk of all of the above can be reduced, sometimes to near zero, with appropriate vaccination. But vaccines just don’t make enough money for pharma to push them hard. Certainly not vaccines like the MMR which are off patent. Pharma considers making them charity work.

            *Never took them up on anything more costly than a pen and even the free pen thing has been phased out over the past 10 years or so. It’s a waste of pharma’s money to try to bribe me anyway: the aspergers prevents me from figuring out that I’m supposed to be looking on the bribe giver favorably. Oh, hey, maybe if I didn’t get the MMR I’d have been properly corruptable.

        • Alisha
          June 20, 2015 at 6:02 am #

          Yes Camille. Go back to 1800’s when they didn’t know the benefits of nutrition, sanitation and washing hands and sterilization in medical practice. Cuz we have the same threats today…. NOT!

          • Nick Sanders
            June 20, 2015 at 11:47 am #

            Try the 1950’s.

      • Bishop
        May 28, 2015 at 11:09 am #

        Oy vey. Another savant here to spew fact-free nonsense.

        A Look at Anti-Vaxxers’ Monstrously Bad Measles Math
        http://www.newsweek.com/look-anti-vaxxers-monstrously-bad-measles-math-304078

        VAERS as “evidence” of vaccine harm
        https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/vaers-as-evidence-of-vaccine-harm/

        Politifact: NaturalNews MMR claim misrepresents data
        http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2015/mar/03/naturalnewscom/vaccine-claim-misinterprets-data/

        Take your pharma shill act back to Natural News, troll.

      • Alisha
        June 20, 2015 at 5:54 am #

        Camille,
        Notice how Bishop only has derogatory shit-talk to reply to u with. That’s because it’s all he can do! BTW, his mother must have been recently vaccinated to name him Bishop! Whatever! Again, nothing valid to argue because they don’t have anything but a false hope and faith in a very large corporation that profits on their blind stupidity and their ignorant following and a corporation that takes no responsibility or accountability for being baby killers by a product that is unsafe and ineffective. I say let them vaccinate!

  7. Missmommamimi
    May 18, 2015 at 12:53 pm #

    Is this a joke??? Talk about being extremely uneducated on the facts of this matter. I wish I could turn a blind eye as well and buy into the bs but my children are far to important to me. Do u think a normal parent who loves their children would risk their child’s safety by blindly unvaccinating them? I don’t want my decisions harming anyone’s child but I especially don’t want my decisions to harm my own child. SB 277 isn’t about making sure every child is safe & healthy. It’s about profit and in return we lose all rights as parents over our child’s health and well being!!! Let’s say your child is having health issues or is sick, had a bad reaction to a certain vaccine, WONT MATTER!! They will have to receive every damn shot exactly when the government says with no mind to what’s best for your child or you. If a disease is not going to kill my child or cause serious health issues I should have the right not to get them that vaccine. I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial. In a perfect world yes they’d do their job but that’s not the case. I want parents to be more into fighting to improve these vaccines so they work and are safe!!! Not so parents are forced to take the risk so these pharma companies can make as much of a profit they can without having to spend any more momey. Look at the facts! Are u willing to relieve every damn one of those vaccines yourself!?!!!????? Seriously!!!! When was the last time u got all ur boosters??? Are u fully “safe” or are u a risk to EVERYONE!?!?!?

    • momofone
      May 18, 2015 at 12:59 pm #

      If your child has a medical reason that prevents him/her from being vaccinated, s/he can get a medical exemption from the doctor.

      I am fully vaccinated, and would absolutely get every vaccine again myself. My son is also fully vaccinated. We have several people in our family with compromised immune systems, and I would never endanger them by not vaccinating.

    • Montserrat Blanco
      May 18, 2015 at 1:20 pm #

      Momofone has answered very well: if your child has a medical reason to not get a vaccine you will find it very easy to get a doctor that signs a medical exemption. I do forms like this all the time so that my patients don’t have to go to work and the government does not say a word (our government is paying for sick leave).

      If you do not want to vaccinate your child you can do so, you just can not send your kids to a public school but you have the right to homeschool them or sending them to a private school that does not have vaccination requirements.

      And yes, I am up to date with my boosters. And just in case you are wondering my son is fully vaccinated.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      May 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm #

      This bill would change absolutely nothing as far as the abilty of parents to get medical excemptions for their children goes. It would ONLY disallow children who were not vaccinated and had no medical reason to not be vaccinated from attending public school where their presence would put other children at risk. For example, children who could not be vaccinated for medical reasons. If your child is one who can not be vaccinated for medical reasons, SB 277 would make him or her safer.

    • Nick Sanders
      May 18, 2015 at 2:12 pm #

      “I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial.”

      And I could go on and on about how to fly by flapping your arms really hard, but what would the point be?

    • yugaya
      May 18, 2015 at 2:12 pm #

      ” Are u willing to relieve every damn one of those vaccines
      yourself!?!!!????? Seriously!!!! When was the last time u got all ur
      boosters??? Are u fully “safe” or are u a risk to EVERYONE!?!?!?”

      1. Yes.
      2.Seriously!!!!
      3. Two months ago.
      4. Yes I am fully “safe”. !Ő!Ő!Ő

    • The Bofa on the Sofa
      May 18, 2015 at 2:24 pm #

      Another moron who thinks they are clever by asking if we are up to day, only to find out that, yeah, we are, you dumbass.

      • Alisha
        June 3, 2015 at 6:46 am #

        Only one dumb ass here, and that’s those that are up-to-date. Keep feeding pharma’s wallet and believing you’re actually protected! Haha. Cuz if you believed you were you wouldn’t sweat the unvaccinated!

        • Nick Sanders
          June 3, 2015 at 6:52 am #

          Tell, me, if pharma is so greedy, why sell vaccines at all? There’s much more money in treatment than prevention.

    • LibrarianSarah
      May 18, 2015 at 2:41 pm #

      You are not really making a good case for how “educated” you are when you can’t even write out a three letter word. Also, yes I am updated on all my boosters and get my flu shot each year.

      Oh and if you have a legitimate medical reason not to vaccinate and were signed off by your doctor you would be exempt from having to vaccinate under this law. The fact you don’t seem to know that also pokes some holes in the “I’m educated” hypothesis.

      TLDR: You are an idiot.

      • Alisha
        June 3, 2015 at 6:44 am #

        You try asking for a medical exemption! They won’t give them! If you read a little, you would know this! Doctors fear losing their license and have repercussions to pay. My friend’s twins can’t get them after severe, doctor acknowledged, vaccine injuries and lifelong seizures you unsympathetic, insincere, under-researched idiot!

        • Nick Sanders
          June 3, 2015 at 6:54 am #

          Yet another obnoxious, hostile, and insulting anti-vaxxer who somehow miraculously knows multiple people with major vaccine damage. What are the odds?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      May 18, 2015 at 2:43 pm #

      1. All but the one I had a reaction to. I’m going to defer that with the blessing of my doctors and the state.
      2. Last year.
      3. Probably not. There are a lot of dangers that vaccination can’t prevent. But I’m not going to be getting (or giving) meales any time soon.
      4. Probably. I think I have allergies right now, but it could be a cold and if so then I’m a risk to those around me (I could give them a cold). That’s a risk that we all have to take to live in society. But I am not going to put anyone at an unnecessary risk just because I find needles inconvenient.

    • Monkey Professor for a Head
      May 18, 2015 at 5:27 pm #

      “I could go on and on how wrong you are and how facts show science shows that these vaccines are not only to risky but not even beneficial.”

      So you’ve researched the actual facts and science behind vaccines? That’s great, why don’t you post some links to the scientific studies that back up your point of view. If the facts are on your side then you should have no problem backing up your opinions right? Direct links to scientific studies please, not links to biased antivax articles – a few other commentators have tried that further down the page and they’ve been shot down pretty easily. If you can’t link to any actual evidence to support your views then I’ll have to conclude that either you haven’t actually researched it or the evidence you claim doesn’t exist.

      Oh by the way, I’m fully up to date with my vaccines. In fact I got my flu shot and TDAP booster last month – I want to protect my unborn son.

      • Dreamon
        May 28, 2015 at 8:02 pm #

        Post? You don’t want anybody to post anything you’re not even going to bother to read it. You want everybody vaccinated because you were dumb enough to do it. Why should anybody get away without being poisoned? Wouldn’t be fair to people like you that already did it. Right?

        • Fallow
          May 28, 2015 at 8:12 pm #

          Oh man. When I saw this rambling gibberish pop up in the side bar, I clicked hoping that I could get that sweet, sweet hit of anti-vaxx lunacy.

          Oh yeah. I’m really feeling it now.

          • Alisha
            June 3, 2015 at 6:31 am #

            I guess u don’t read VAERS or wonder why the fuck the government and pharma are shielded from liability, accountability or reponsibility when their vaccines kill children! And I guess u are ok with the fact that they don’t even pay for the damages they cause when they devastate families to the tune of over $3.1 billion dollars. You dumb asses that buy vaccines are paying for the damages with every dose of pollution u put in ur child’s body they take .75 cents to the national vaccine injury trust fund so you can pay the awards to the families of brain damaged and dead children that the pharmaceutical industry injured or killed! Hmmmm brilliant! Have you researched ALEC or visited propublica.org to see how much doctors are paid by pharma to push their vaccines? Have you bothered to read that $1 out of every $4 paid in fines to the U.S. Gov for fraud is the pharmaceutical industry? Do a little more reading passed the gibberish your doctor feeds you. It’s real easy to see when you just follow the money and the injured!

          • Poogles
            August 24, 2015 at 1:39 pm #

            I”I guess u don’t read VAERS or wonder why the fuck the government and pharma are shielded from liability, accountability or reponsibility when their vaccines kill children!”

            I guess u don’t understand how VAERS or the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program actually works.

    • DelphiniumFalcon
      May 19, 2015 at 4:41 pm #

      1. Yes, even the old DPT shot that makes me seriously ill. Chills and fever and puking for a couple days or lock jaw, contracting a cough that often leads to pneumonia and won’t let me sleep, and/or barking cough with the potential for my entire beck to swell up to the point where I can’t breathe? Yeah, I’d still do the old vaccine.

      2. 2012 when I started my job at the hospital and got my titers checked to prove my immunity to measles, mumps, and rubella since my records weren’t with me. Would you like me to post them?

      3. My titers appear to be in the immune level so, yes?

      4. More like people are a risk to me. I suspect an immune disorder runs on my mom’s side of the family but I can’t afford to do all the antibody testing and they can’t either. Only a younger cousin is confirmed to have an immune disorder and they’re still not sure what type. I pick up every single airborne disease that goes through this town…except the ones I’m vaccinated against. Funny, huh? That’s how I knew they hit the wrong flu combination this year. Every time they miss one of the more common mutations I get a sinus infection from hell that becomes a lovely breeding spot for bacteria. Which then requires antibiotics no matter how many times I try to clean out my sinuses. You have no idea how happy I am to line up for a flu shot to avoid that particular hell.

      Comphrensive enough or shall I continue?

      Edit: And my parents did worry about me. My parents are in the age group where the pio vaccine was getting some bad press and my parents weren’t sure if they should get me vaccinated. But they remember the crippled children they went to school with. Dad says he swears at one time it was like one in seven kids he knew were criped in some way or suffering from post polio syndrome. They got me vaccinated in the end. The risks of complications from the polio vaccine were lower than an actual polio infection. That’s responsible research.

    • Box of Salt
      May 24, 2015 at 3:19 am #

      “If a disease is not going to kill my child or cause serious health issues”

      Tell me, Missmommamimi, how would you know that?

  8. HippieSkeptic
    May 15, 2015 at 11:54 am #

    Gotta go guys — busy day at work today. HS out.

  9. Camille
    May 15, 2015 at 11:25 am #

    PhD Scientist and Biochemist Reveals Hidden CDC Documents Showing Thimerosal In Vaccines Increase Neurologic Disorders

    image: http://i2.wp.com/vaccineresistancemovement.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/thimerosal_bottle.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=208%2C282

    The CDC has been shunning the correlations between thimerosal and neurological disorders for a very long time. Although the FDA gave a two year deadline to remove the mercury based preservative from vaccines after the neurotoxin was banned in 1999, it still remains to this day in 60 percent of flu vaccines. A vaccine industry watchdog has now obtained CDC documents that show statistically significant risks of autism associated with the vaccine preservative, something the CDC denies even when confronted with their own data.

    Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cdc-forced-release-documents-showing-knew-vaccine-preservative-autism/#YMmm6mMzVx8sKUfF.99

    • Megan
      May 15, 2015 at 11:33 am #

      Yet more crap from unreliable sources. This is what a real scientific source looks like, Camille:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25562790/?i=9&from=vaccines%20autism
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25862449/?i=3&from=vaccines%20autism
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25898051/?i=1&from=vaccines%20autism
      These are just from the first page of search results. I could list many many more. There is no evidence of a link between autism and thimerosol or the MMR vaccine and autism. You can thank me for doing the work of looking up actual scientific information for you. Though I’m sure you won’t bother reading any of it.

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 11:47 am #

        Megan, It does not surprise me that you would go to a government source to get your documentation. The government and industry has a vested interest in hiding any linkages to vaccine and neurological and immune system damages FOR A REASON. There were many lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies that were being won by vaccine damaged individuals before the government gave liability protections to vaccine manufacturers. It is in both government and industries best interests to hide the evidence and to put their own data up on their sites to protect their interests.

        • Megan
          May 15, 2015 at 11:56 am #

          None of those papers are from the government. They are from peer-reviewed scientific journals detailing research done at universities around the world. As I suspected you didn’t read them. I could have gone to my local library and gotten those papers as well but then I can’t link them for you.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 12:09 pm #

            They are only peer-reviewed papers that support the government and industries position that vaccines are safe, whereas there is plenty of peer-reviewed scientific papers that show otherwise. READ:

            What the News Isn’t Saying About Vaccine-Autism Studies, By Sherly Attkisson.

            Many of the studies have common themes regarding a subset of susceptible children with immunity issues who, when faced with various vaccine challenges, end up with brain damage described as autism.

            “Permanent brain damage” is an acknowledged, rare side effect of vaccines; there’s no dispute in that arena. The question is whether the specific form of autism brain injury after vaccination is in any way related to vaccination.

            So what are a few of these published studies supporting a possible link between vaccines and autism?

            As far back as 1998, a serology study by the College of Pharmacy at University of Michigan supported the hypothesis that an autoimmune response from the live measles virus in MMR vaccine “may play a causal role in autism.” (Nothing to see here, say the critics, that study is old.)

            In 2002, a Utah State University study found that “an inappropriate antibody response to MMR [vaccine], specifically the measles component thereof, might be related to pathogenesis of autism.” (“Flawed and non-replicable,” insist the propagandists.)

            Also in 2002, the Autism Research Institute in San Diego looked at a combination of vaccine factors. Scientists found the mercury preservative thimerosal used in some vaccines (such as flu shots) could depress a baby’s immunity. That could make him susceptible to chronic measles infection of the gut when he gets MMR vaccine, which contains live measles virus. (The bloggers say it’s an old study, and that other studies contradict it.)

            intramuscular injection of vaccines containing aluminium hydroxide such as hepatitis B vaccine.17Thirdly, there are reports of the onset of chronic autoimmune disease and, in particular, of RA.

            http://sharylattkisson.com/what-the-news-isnt-saying-about-vaccine-autism-studies/

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 12:24 pm #

            I’m curious about Sheryl Attkisson’s credentials–can you tell us what they are?

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 12:29 pm #

            Sharyl Attkisson (born January 26, 1961)[1] is an Emmy-award winning American author and formerly an investigative correspondent in the Washington bureau for CBS News. She had also substituted as anchor for the CBS Evening News. From 1990-93, Attkisson was an anchor for CNN. Attkisson received an Investigative Reporters and Editors (I.R.E.) Finalist award for Dangerous Drugs in 2000.[8] In 2001, Attkisson received an Investigative Emmy Award nomination for Firestone Tire Fiasco from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. [9]

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 12:30 pm #

            How does that make her a credible source about scientific studies?

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 1:00 pm #

            Per Camille “credible” is anyone who agrees with her. Everyone else is part of some nefarious worldwide conspiracy.

          • Poogles
            May 16, 2015 at 12:35 am #

            So…..she’s a journalist? Not qualified to speak on science she doesn’t understand? Sounds about right.

          • May 16, 2015 at 10:43 pm #

            Oh. A talking head who can read a teleprompter.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 18, 2015 at 12:27 pm #

            She is a person who lost her job for lying

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 3:07 pm #

            Apart from all the loaded language and clear reporter bias, I’d like some proof “chronic measles infection of the gut” even exists before I take such claims seriously.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            May 15, 2015 at 5:09 pm #

            If there are plenty of peer reviewed scientific papers that prove your point, then why have you repeatedly failed to link to them? And I mean directly to those papers, not to antivax articles or YouTube videos which reference them?

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 5:21 pm #

            In case you didn’t notice (or didn’t read) the abstracts, two of the three of my citations were research studies done in other countries (Japan and Poland). Why would they have any interest in lining the pockets of U.S. politicians/government or in U.S. Pharmaceutical companies?

          • Poogles
            May 16, 2015 at 12:33 am #

            “They are only peer-reviewed papers that support the government and industries position that vaccines are safe”

            So you admit that you will not accept any studies or evidence supporting vaccines simply because they agree with “the government and industries [sic] position that vaccines are safe”.

            That is the opposite of science and you are willingly ignoring reality because it does not align with your preconceived notions.

            “The question is whether the specific form of autism brain injury after vaccination is in any way related to vaccination.”

            Only anti-vaxxers claim autism is a brain “injury” AFAIK, so this is a moot point.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 16, 2015 at 1:57 pm #

            There’s that “injury” word again.

            How am I supposed to believe that anti-vaxxers don’t think there’s anything wrong with me and don’t in fact pity me when they keep throwing that word out?

        • Megan
          May 15, 2015 at 11:59 am #

          And by the way, I thought you said pubmed was credible. Either you think it is or you don’t. You can’t play it both ways.

    • JJ
      May 15, 2015 at 11:35 am #

      Please read more about how science works. Rogue doctors posting youtube videos and lone rangers with their special findings are not impressive to scientifically literate.

    • Bugsy
      May 15, 2015 at 11:35 am #

      Both the title and the basis premise of the article are quite disingenuous. Aside from being a scientist in a field unrelated to epidemiology, Dr. Hooker’s other claim to fame is that he’s a board member of an organization that believes there has been a cover-up of the vaccine/autism link.

      In addition, I noticed that the article quotes Dr. Hooker’s interpretation of the CDC data without any actual evidence of it directly. Given his personal biases, we can reasonably assume that this interpretation is also biased, further compounded by the lack of any demonstrable evidence backing up his assertions.

    • DelphiniumFalcon
      May 15, 2015 at 11:53 am #

      My question is this: even IF vaccines were to cause cases of autism, you’re saying that autism is a fate worse than death?

      I find that highly insulting.

      I am autistic. I like the way I am. I don’t have a huge autistic pride thing going on but I do not wring my hands and wail to the heavens every day asking why, oh why, do I have this condition. I see things different from other people. My thought processes are more local than global focused. This gives me a different perspective. My management team doesn’t know I’m autistic because I don’t want them to treat me like a freak, but they know if there’s a particular weak link in a process, they tell me to start in one place and work my way out and I will almost always find the problem. They don’t realize it’s a fundamental difference in how I process information that allows me to find and solve problems quickly in this line of work.

      I’m not broken and I don’t feel sorry for myself. I get annoyed when I get made fun of for not processing what another person is feeling but I do not lack empathy. Once I know someone is upset, I feel so deeply that it might as well be my own pain. I have issues with a certain type of empathy, not all empathy. This isn’t uncommon in people with Asperger’s syndrome.

      But people like me are to be pitied. Because we’re “injured” in some way. We’re broken and need to be paraded as such. No wonder so many people with autism aren’t able to flourish! The ones with less dramatic symptoms or with severe symptoms that they “bloom” out of with extra support can blend into society remarkably well. But the ones that will bloom will not without that intervention.

      Do you want people like us not to exist? My life isn’t as awful as people who hold up autistic children as the standard of vaccine injury say it is. I’m married, own a house, have two cars, hold down a job, and I even have a dog. Maybe I’m not the normal experience. Or maybe I’m doing well because my parents never saw me as broken and a lost cause and I was able to flourish in a safe place.

      I sincerely hope if you ever have an autistic child that you don’t treat them like anti-vaxxers do.

      I am not a victim. Stop treating me like one.

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 12:17 pm #

        I never said autism is worse than death, nor do I pity you. You seem to be very a very high functioning person. However, your condition does not negate a potential connection between vaccines and autism and other autoimmune diseases. By the way, I do have friends who’s kids are not on the high functioning autistic spectrum and it is not pretty. They’re kids scream constantly up at night, they suffer seizures constantly, they bang their heads, and they have a mental capacity of a child in an adult body.

        • DelphiniumFalcon
          May 15, 2015 at 12:27 pm #

          I know others on the lower end of the spectrum too. The one i know best and used to babysit, his mother has worked with him constantly. When he’s not being treated like a freak, he’s a pretty happy guy. Nonverbal, self destructive, full meltdown head banging, screaming tantrums and hitting sometimes but mostly when forced outside his comfort zone by teachers for no other reason because they said so. His mother is a saint. She worries about what will happen when she’s gone, but I never saw her, his dad, or his sister treat him like he was broken. They love him. He’s even taken to giving people big bear hugs as an adult since he still doesn’t talk much but wants to show affection.

          Even if vaccines were to blame, whooping cough has a nasty habit of sweeping through the area. So does chicken pox. I’m pretty sure if I went and asked her now if shed prefer he were injured by a vaccine preventable illness or take the vaccine, she’d vaccinate every time.

          Also, once again, vaccines do not cause autism. However one of the few known causes of autism is a maternal infection with German Measles in the first trimester. Which MMR guards against.

          • demodocus
            May 18, 2015 at 10:09 am #

            not to mention the other possible problems rubella can do to a fetus.

        • Nick Sanders
          May 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm #

          Sure you do. You and every other antivaxxer somehow mysteriously all know people on the extreme bottom end of the autism spectrum.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 12:58 pm #

            They also say they don’t think autism is worse than death or that they pity people like me, bit autism is the go to “Won’t somebody think of the children?!” plea so honestly what am I supposed to think.

            Maybe my overly logical autistic brain just sees the connection:

            Anti-Vaxxer doesn’t want people to vaccinate -> Pulls out papers showing supposed link with vaccines to autism -> Starts saying things like think of the poor children and the poor parents! -> Higher functioning autistic people like myself get pissed and say to stop touting us as a casualty of war -> Anti-vaxxers claim they never looked down on or implied anything was wrong with autistic children -> Goes back to treating vaccinated autistics like ASPCA puppies for their cause.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 1:11 pm #

            Yes, Nick, we do know these people and they are cropping up all over these days. My BF’s business partners each have one child, and both of these children are autistic, one severely (the head beater and screamer). Same with my girlfriend whose kid is somewhat functional, however, he will need to be in a home for his entire adulthood. Don’t you dare tell me they don’t exist. A-hole.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 1:14 pm #

            …that is not what he was saying at all.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 15, 2015 at 3:44 pm #

          I’ve met a number of children on the low functioning end of the autism spectrum. They’re mostly just flat out uninterested in humanity. They scream occasionally, probably because things like the color yellow or off key whistling hurt to look at/listen to, but they’re not “constantly” screaming. I haven’t met any with a seizure disorder, which is not unexpected since less than 10% of severe autism spectrum disorders have any association with seizures. They’ll probably never be completely independent, but maybe it’s ok to be a person who needs some help?

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 5:54 pm #

            Not to mention a good portion of people on the autistic spectrum have another comorbid disorder. ADHD, depression, and anxiety being some of the more common ones.

            And hey, guess what causes gastrointestinal upset? Anxiety! Maybe there’s the missing link!

            Boom. Problem solved.

            Also, off key singing and whistling? I’m so called “high functioning” and I want to let out a war shriek and strangle people that play or sing off key. I’m sorry. It’s a very animalistic reaction but you have no idea how much it actually does hurt my ears. Or maybe you do. It’s like an ice pick through ear drums. The “low functioning” ones are just doing what I wish I could.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 18, 2015 at 9:19 am #

            I have a weird thing with whistling and a capella singing in general. I can’t stand even GOOD, tuneful a capella singing. The only way I can control my reaction is by thinking about how hurt and confused the other person would be if I suddenly ran away screaming. I can imagine that someone who couldn’t express themselves verbally and therefore couldn’t communicate well enough to understand the other person’s motivations (they’re just singing to themselves, not trying to upset you) would get out of control very quickly. It hurts and it’s a normal human instinct, autistic or neurotypical, to try to make pain stop.

          • demodocus
            May 18, 2015 at 10:07 am #

            My toddler glares at us when we sing badly in choir. It’s pretty funny. If it’s bad enough, he’ll cry. Since his ped is not at all worried about asd, we figure he just has a really good sense of pitch like his father and that bad tones *offend* him.

        • LibrarianSarah
          May 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm #

          The funny thing is a lot of the things you mention can describe me as well. I am a head banger, (I have transitioned to doing it against a pillow now though) a toe walker, I have had seizures, I scream (though not constantly and mostly in private now) and will probably never be able to be “completely independent” (whatever that means). However, most people who I talk to consider me on the “high functioning” end of the spectrum. Funny it is almost like “functioning levels” are bullshit that people like you use at your discretion as opposed to real, solid, medical criteria that differentiates autistic people from one another.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 5:47 pm #

            I’m not a fan of the functioning levels myself since it’s been shown that previously “low functioning” individuals can bloom into “high functioning” with the right care and encouragement. It’s rare, but it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, why does it matter? Sometimes I envy the “lower functioning” autistics. They don’t give nearly as much of a crap about stupid stuff in society as I, a “higher functioning” individual does.

            It’s like the old addage says, you meet one autistic person, you’ve met AN autistic person. We have a cluster of symptoms in common but they manifest different from person to person because, and here’s the shocker, we have different personalities! I mean, it’s almost like we’re human beings or something!

            It’d be nice if anti-vaxxers would stop using people like us as boogymen for their bs. Or at least let us dress up and chase people around if they’re going to keep doing it.

      • Poogles
        May 16, 2015 at 12:20 am #

        “I am autistic. I like the way I am. […] I see things different from other people. My thought processes are more local than global focused. This gives me a different perspective. […] I’m not broken and I don’t feel sorry for myself. […] My life isn’t as awful as people who hold up autistic children as the standard of vaccine injury say it is. I’m married, own a house, have two cars, hold down a job, and I even have a dog. Maybe I’m not the normal experience. Or maybe I’m doing well because my parents never saw me as broken and a lost cause and I was able to flourish in a safe place.”

        Thank you so much for this comment. It amazes and sickens me how often autism is made out to be worse than a death sentence while the voices of those who are actually autistic are ignored and left out of the discussion.

        • DelphiniumFalcon
          May 16, 2015 at 12:22 am #

          Ah but don’t you know, I can voice my opinion so I’m not autistic enough to count. Only those that can’t call them on their bullshit count. 😉

          • Poogles
            May 16, 2015 at 1:04 am #

            “I can voice my opinion so I’m not autistic enough to count.”

            Right?!? Fucking ridiculous. I’m not on the spectrum myself, but my little sister was diagnosed with Aspergers and I get so frustrated when people discount her experience. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be the one to experience that dismissal firsthand.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 4:13 pm #

            It gives you this urge to start screaming in frustration but you don’t want them to assume you’re throwing an “autistic temper tantrum.”

            I just start discounting their experiences based on how my brain views things that I usually keep unvoiced if they really piss me off. “How could you have literally died from the pain? That’s physically impossible. As in against the laws if physics.” “Well I didn’t mean literally!” “But you said literally.” “But I didnt mean it like that.” “See, the world has problems because we have issues using words correctly toto express ourselves. We’re far too imprecise” When they get angry with me I go “Hey, it’s almost like having your first hand experiences with an illness that you live with every day countered and dismissed pisses people off! Who knew?!”

            People say autistics don’t have a sense of humor. Some of us do and it’s a bit wicked. Don’t ask me to act “more” autistic for fit your needs, anti-vaxxers. I’ll turn off my learned social coping mechanisms and it won’t be pretty. Those are in place for the benefit if others and to keep others from bullying me because I’m different. They don’t have to be there.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 19, 2015 at 4:31 pm #

            Well, technically severe enough pain might cause death by one of a couple of mechanisms: It might drive the person to kill themselves to get rid of the pain. It might stress them bad enough to have a heart attack or increase their BP enough that they have a stroke. It’s not actually totally impossible. Though I guess it isn’t the pain per se that kills in that case.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 4:34 pm #

            Ha! Touche! I conceed your point! Most people that discount the experiences of others though aren’t going to be able to refute as you did. Because that takes research and research is haaaaaard.

          • Gatita
            May 19, 2015 at 4:34 pm #

            I think we should try to be fair to parents who are dealing with some incredibly difficult situations. If you have an adult child who isn’t toilet trained, doesn’t speak, engages in self-harming behaviors, and will never live independently–that’s terribly difficult. I think the reason you get the “you’re not autistic enough” line is that when people tell them that not all autistic people are like that or even non-verbal people communicate in their own way, it can feel like a slap in the face and a devaluation of their incredibly difficult situations. I don’t think we should give anyone a pass for going full paranoid antivaxx or abusing their children. But having known people who, for example, couldn’t keep caregivers because their children kept assaulting them (family with plenty of money, too, just couldn’t get anyone to stick around), I understand where they’re coming from. It’s just fucking hard.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 5:04 pm #

            It absolutely is hard. The whole “vaccines cause autism” is an insult to everyone on the spectrum really.

            How much funding has been wasted looking for the autism-vaccine connection that has been disproven again and again that could have gone to the types of autistics you’re talking about and their parents? When those of us that can speak and ask for research in another direction to help those that didn’t roll so lucky on the spectrum, then get shit down saying we’re not autistic enough to have an opinion it pisses us off.

            We know it’s hard to have the mild symptoms. It must be beyond frustrating to have the most severe. For both the person and their care takers.

            That’s why I get angry when anti-vaxxers tell people like me to shut up when j say to leave us alone. Because they want more and more money thrown at studies that we already know the answers to. We could be using that funding to pay for functional MRI scans on the boy I know and the person you’re describing to see -how- their brains are different. Genetic sequencing on people all over the spectrum to see if we can identify genetic influences. What areas of the brai are active during what kind of stimuli? Could we develop and interface that could help them communicate? Could we have already done that if money wasn’t being syphoned off into more pseudoscience like supposed vaccination connections or dangerous chelation therapy?

            They deserve to have all of that and more instead of their challenges being coopted by people with an agenda that is not in the best interest of the person or caregivers.

            So that’s why I get angry that I get told I’m not autistic enough. I’m saying they’re looking in the wrong spot and I get told to buzz off. I want to help but someone else is steering the ship and we’re just along for the ride.

            I want the boy I know that doesn’t talk and still has poop smearing episodes to be understood. I want people to look at him and instead of saying “oh it must have been vaccines and now he’s broken and there’s nothing we can do” to look at him and say “how does he experience the world? What compels him to do one thing but not the other? Is life uncomfortable for them or is it something else?” They don’t need pity. They need to be understood. If that can happen and we can understand why those behaviors hallen, maybe those more destructive behaviors can be addressesed. Then those parents that have been hit, cleaned up poorp smeared walls, and can’t find a way to communicate with their child will finally have relief.

            I know the toll it has on parents. This boy’s mom didn’t ever leave his side from the day he was born until he was about six or seven, when I started to babysit him. I had a reputation for being a good babysitter and extremely gentle/soft spoken and they’d known me for years. I was the only person that ever baby sat for him and his sister had to help me a lot. His mom is brilliant but never dared leave him alone until then. And it was just one Friday a month for a movie at first. His dad works with my dad and they work long hours with a lot of overtime. She was alone a lot. It’s been hard for her. A lot of the difficulty being with the school treating him badly.

            She’s a good mom. Puts up with a lot of abuse from many angles. She should be a candidate for sainthood, really. Shouldn’t some of that money go to people like themthem instead of another useless research study to day “Yup, still not vaccines.”

          • Gatita
            May 19, 2015 at 5:23 pm #

            I feel like you’re having an argument with someone who’s not me. Of course we need to stop studying vaccines, it’s completely absurd and a waste of money. But telling parents it’s not that bad or pointing out that not everyone with autism isn’t incapacitated doesn’t do anything to win over the parents whose children are incapacitated.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 6:03 pm #

            So then why is it okay to tell those people that essential their child is broken? That it’s okay for society to look down on them? I’m not going for special star child, I mean observing that children who aren’t trying to be forced into this mold called “acceptable” have less issues. The worst I’ve seen severely affected autistics is when teachers try to force them to talk, try to force them to touch something that causes overstimulation, or push them out of their comfort zone with absolutely no compassion or understanding of mentally painful it is.

            Some will still have the violent symptoms. But I see so many do so much better when they’re not being forced to conform to what we consider “normal”. We know that doesn’t work but we keep traumatizing kids in the name of “helping”.

            Maybe it’s time to look at it from another perspective. People that are deaf to the point of being unable to detect voices well enough to interpret speech have to use another way to communicate. However, if you were to use the same terminology that’s been applied to severely autistic people, you’d have some very angry sign language coming at you and you won’t need to understand sign language to know you just severely insulted them. The deaf community has their own culture and a certain pride. Most people in the deaf community don’t like to be considered broken.

            Before they had a way to communicate, it’d be easy to assume they’re “retarded” or “detached from the world.” Sound famiar? In reality they were missing a component of normal human communication. Their family members could understand them to a point, but they had no way of communicating their thoughts to the outside world.

            If you know about Helen Keller’s early life after being rendered deaf and blind as a child, when relearning how to interact with the world she was often frustrated. Once while her teacher was trying to teach the word “mug”, Helen broke it out of anger. She acted out a lot until she was able to express herself enough to be understood.

            Now with the deaf there were separate schools of thought. Oralism, teaching them to speak so they could be understood by others (a convenience for society) and sign language (more convenient and easier to grasp but inconvenient to society). Oralism was eventually considered a dismal failure. Very few deaf people mastered it and many more became frustrated and still were frustrated by being unable to communicate. When it was understood that sign language was a more natural way of communicating, because they often made tbeir own signs in the first place. While the integration of deaf people isn’t oerfdctz many of the issues they once faced are starting to fade. My generation was taught to consider them as normal intelligence people that just communicated different for example.

            That’s why I ask, what if we’re missing s critical component of autistic communication? What if we need to stop trying to shove them into what society wants them to be, which exacerbates the unwanted behaviors (as what happened with oralism) and research if there is a way to communicate that comes more naturally, their sign language if you will.

            Do we need to force people on the spectrum to make eye contact? In some cultures that’s considered extremely rude and most animals consider it a threatening gesture. I feel my fight or flight button getting slammed repeatedly when I’m forced to make eye contact and I can verbalize my discomfort. Do we have to force them to be comfortable with touch or certain fabrics when it makes their brain explode with sensation? Maybe we need to stop looking at what makes autistics more palatable to society because it’s convenient but they’re screaming inside and outside for help and no one understands.

            Being denied comfort and a feeling of safety and understanding I think drives almost any human batty. It’s not a stretch to imagine it’d make them violent trying to push the discomfort away.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 18, 2015 at 12:24 pm #

            Really, even those people can call them on their bs online. I know several nonverbal autistic people that post online.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 3:37 pm #

            But they are articulate and not doesn’t fit the mold of using them like abused ASPCA puppies so we autistics that are able to communicate in any way just aren’t autistic enough.

            …I wonder what they’ll do when they find a way to allow non communicating autstics to communicate (if it’s possible) in the future and they also tell the anti vaxxers to beat a new horse what they’ll latch on to.

            Ah well. We’ll always have colitis.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 19, 2015 at 3:55 pm #

            I don’t know…my impression of some “low functioning”, nonverbal austics is that they aren’t interested enough in other humans to bother trying to communicate with them. So I think step 1 might be to find a way to make people interesting enough to this set of autistics to make them willing to bother trying to learn to communicate. (Though I should point out that this idea is complete speculation on my part and not based on good data.)

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 4:02 pm #

            That is the difficult part isn’t it? Despite sharing some characteristics, I can’t even guess on what’s going on in their minds. Are you correct that there’s just nothing out there to draw their interest? Fundamental brain wiring differences that make it impossible to communicate with neurotypical humans? If we were able to design an interface that could display what someone is thinking, is the autistic brain process so alien to “normal” that we’d get a mess of images that don’t make sense? I suspect we’d get that even with “high” functioning autistics as I’m almost positive that my thought processes are completely different from how “normal” people process.

            It’s an intriguing thing. Which is why to write off ” low functioning ” individuals as unreable is rather short sighted.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 19, 2015 at 4:25 pm #

            I suspect we’d get that even with “high” functioning autistics as I’m
            almost positive that my thought processes are completely different from
            how “normal” people process.

            I occasionally fantasize about what society would be like if I were average. For example, the ratio of bookstores to clothing stores in your average mall would be inverted. Politicians would try to convince people to vote for them by presenting large masses of data and would deny accusations that they were “charismatic” vehemently. Most likely no one would be willing to take up sales or politics as a career so it’s likely that there’d have to be a draft type situation where everyone was required to spend their 2 years in high social requirement work before they could go off and do something interesting…In short, society would be significantly different and probably significantly less workable. What the world would be like if severe autism were the norm, I can’t even guess.

            OTOH, if we as a society could find a way to get severe autistics interested in communicating with neurotypicals or even moderate autistics and make it possible to do so, that technology might be transferable to any aliens that we might encounter (/thinking way to far ahead.)

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 19, 2015 at 7:25 pm #

            I like the way you think! And there’s an interesting premise for speculative fiction!

  10. Camille
    May 15, 2015 at 2:47 am #

    About the dangers of aluminum in vaccines from Dr. Suzanne Humphries.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzqPrSnaqbc

    • Mike Stevens
      May 15, 2015 at 6:50 am #

      Read about aluminum in vaccines from someone who is actually a medical expert in the relevant field.
      “We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that contain aluminum
      adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the
      benefits of using vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any
      theoretical concerns.”

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122

    • Megan
      May 15, 2015 at 7:28 am #

      Another youtube video? Really? If you really do believe that pubmed is credible like you say (because you were “just ribbing me” when you said it wasn’t credible) then why won’t you use it to post legitimate evidence? My guess is because no legitimate evidence supports your position. It shows a pattern of laziness to continue posting YouTube videos as “evidence.”

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 11:04 am #

        Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do. Gee, First you complain that I send too long movie “Silent Epidemic” because no one would watch something that long, so I put up a short one and you complain that I am lazy. God, you people are full of contradictions!

        • momofone
          May 15, 2015 at 11:16 am #

          Actually, I think the expectation that you would read and/or at least understand the findings of scientific papers if you’re going to make the claims you have has been pretty consistent. I don’t pore over detailed scientific papers either, but I make sure to pay attention to what the people who do say about them. And a 2-hour Gary Null video is not the same as a scientific anything, short, long, or otherwise.

          • JJ
            May 15, 2015 at 11:21 am #

            Exactly. This is why I defer to the experts on vaccines because it would be silly for a SAHM with a sociology degree to say I know better than 99% of scientists and doctors worldwide.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 11:23 am #

            The video is not about Gary Null. The film presents many medical professionals whose research concludes something very different to the meme that vaccinations have very little risks. I have heard mainstream newspaper editors and medical professionals (Ofitt for one) say vaccines are safe. If they pose some risks, and people should be aware of those risks and have the right to informed consent because of these risks.

          • JJ
            May 15, 2015 at 11:24 am #

            NO ONE is denying they pose some risks. Tylenol poses some risks, vitamins, excessive water….

            EVERYTHING has risks and benefits.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 11:31 am #

            Well, JJ, thank you for pointing out the obvious, that there are risks involved. That is why people should have choice and not be forced to have vaccine shot into them or their children.

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 11:33 am #

            But forced vaccines aren’t being proposed. Parents can choose not to vaccinate. It’s just that in doing so, they’re choosing not to go to public schools. Every choice has a consequence.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 11:36 am #

            As pointed out earlier, that is discrimination, and is not fair. If you’re going to demand that people can’t have a public education if they are not vaccinated, then those people should not have to pay for public education. Already they will have a financial burden by homeschooling. If the state wants to pay for this then fine. I believe they should.

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 11:37 am #

            No. That is reality. If I choose to go to work and defame the president of my company–which I can do by virtue of freedom of speech–I get to say what I want. I also bear the consequences, which would possibly include losing my job. The right to choose does not equal a right to be free of the consequences of my choice.

          • Wren
            May 15, 2015 at 11:39 am #

            If a family chooses to lead a fully nudist lifestyle, their children cannot attend public school without putting clothes on. Many schools extend that further to specific dress codes or uniforms, rules on hairstyles and make up, rules on jewellery, etc. None of those things is discrimination and none affect the health of fellow students as much as vaccination status can potentially do.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 11:40 am #

            A child who is not vaccinated poses a risk to other children. They can not be safely incorporated into the public school system, especially as more children with immune deficiency issues are able to survive and be healthy enough to take part in public education. If you want to endanger your child and make him or her a danger to others, that is your choice, but the state is not obliged to accomedate your stupidity.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 11:42 am #

            Nice try. I lived in a town where a cult was having the children where t-shirts to the public schools stating “Islam is of the devil.” The kids were sent home for violation of the school district’s dress code. Would you consider their being sent home to be discrimination as well?

            http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090825/ARTICLES/908259940

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:20 pm #

            No free riders allowed.

          • JJ
            May 15, 2015 at 11:33 am #

            There are risks to driving your kids to school, feeding them, and bathing them yet parents are still required to do these things. Also, one last time, no one is FORCING you do anything. You get to make a choice with a consequence.

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 11:35 am #

            It’s called a risk/benefit ratio. And in this case the benefits FAR outweigh any risks.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 11:39 am #

            Do you know that 50% of kids today have some kind of autoimmunity problems? Allergies, Asthma, Autism, Aspergers, diabetes, speech disorders, etc. etc. all potential problems that are spelled out on vaccine inserts. Any correlation these and the vastly increase schedule of mandated vaccines?

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 11:40 am #

            Source? (I’d say “credible” but I’m pretty sure it’s a moot point.)

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 11:40 am #

            Um…reference? Where do you get this number? Is it actually different from past data?

          • JJ
            May 15, 2015 at 11:40 am #

            Correlation does not make causation. Organic food sales correlate well with autism.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 11:43 am #

            Incredibly well. R2 of greater than 0.99. And much “organic food” is actually treated with older, “natural” pesticides. Older pesticides are far more likely to have an adverse effect on brain development than newer, more specific pesticides. So there’s a biologically plausible explanation. Investigating organic food as a potential etiology of autism would be quite reasonable. At one point, investigating vaccines was reasonable, but it’s been done, it’s not the problem, time to move on.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 11:45 am #

            Yep. Just posted this link.

            http://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/correlation_causation_independence-98944

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 11:44 am #

            Fascinating that so many of these disorders also arose simultaneous to the increase in the use of organic foods.

            Correlation? Causation? I’m not willing to blame one on the other based on my presupposed need to correlate ideas.

            http://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/correlation_causation_independence-98944

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 11:49 am #

            Oh god, that’s pathetic Bugsy.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 11:50 am #

            Thanks, Camille…you just made my day! I’m honoured to be called pathetic by an anti-vaxxer.

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 11:51 am #

            Find me a credible source that shows 50% of kids are sick with those things. I see children as a physician for a living and I can tell you that half of them are not sick.
            Also, anything that gets reported to VAERS is put on the vaccine insert. It does not have to be shown to be caused by the vaccine. I could say that I got tired after a vaccine and report it and it would be listed even though no one knows why I got tired. Correlation does not equal causation. breastfeeding rates have also gone up as autism rates have but I am sure you would not argue that breastfeeding causes autism.
            Did you know that as usage of thimerosol-containing vaccines has gone down, the rate of autism diagnosis has still gone up? How would you explain that?

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 12:43 pm #

            So… I just got my HepB vaccine so I can get my phlebotomy license. But I forgot vaccines cause autism. But I’m already autistic! Am I going to get more autistic?!

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 15, 2015 at 1:35 pm #

            It means you are going to get super powers you lucky bastard you.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 15, 2015 at 1:40 pm #

            Behold! My aluminum ray! Able to corrupt the pure, organic produce in seconds! The Autistic Scream! Be incapacitated by the devil shrieking all anti-vaxxers think we do! Viral Shed! Cower as I shed all my vaccines to infect all!

            Mwahahahaha!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 1:42 pm #

            Excellent. The plan for world domination progresses…

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:42 pm #

            You have an aluminum ray? Listen, I have a bunch of scrap metal, and if you’ll zap it for me, I’ll split the increase in recycling value with you.

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 15, 2015 at 3:05 pm #

            Wow that’s quite the set. The only thing I can do is give people autism.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:15 pm #

            Do you know how frequently kids with autoimmunity problems died in the first few years of life until recently? Type I Diabetes, the kind I assume you are referring to, used to be a guaranteed death sentence.

            And Autism, Asperger’s, “speech disorders”, and who know how many of the things you are listing as “etc.” are not autoimmune disorders.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 1:16 pm #

            But if Big Pharma and the government aren’t to be trusted, why would you trust their vaccine inserts for accuracy?

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 18, 2015 at 12:29 pm #

            Vaccine inserts are legal documents to protect the manufacturer. They list everything that happens during the clinical trials even if they happened in the placebo group. It doesn’t do you much good to read something you obviously don’t understand

          • LibrarianSarah
            May 15, 2015 at 12:16 pm #

            Okay then using your logic then because their is risk involved with excessive water, parents should be able to have a choice whether or not they give their children water. If I were you I would jump on this cause since parents are actually put in jail for child neglect for withholding water as opposed to just not being able to put their kids in schools.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:03 pm #

            And no one is being forced. So that should be the end of that, right?

        • Wren
          May 15, 2015 at 11:35 am #

          Bingo! It is preceisely because lay people do not have the time and expertise to pour over detailed scientific papers that deferring to the experts who have both the time and the expertise is the sensible option. When the vast majority of those experts worldwide agree, ignoring them in favour of a few who disagree without actually understanding the issues and reading the papers yourself is rather foolish.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 11:36 am #

            Yes!!!!

        • Megan
          May 15, 2015 at 11:41 am #

          I never complained about the length of your movies, only that they were not credible. I posted links above to scientific studies refuting your claims about thimerosol, MMR and autism. I also distilled it into a single summarizing sentence for you: There is no link between thimerosol or MMR and autism. You won’t believe me of course. But you are also unwilling to look at actual science, apparently because you are a lay person without time or expertise to read those studies. That’s why others have done it for you. Most lay people are smart enough to listen to people who can understand scientific literature if they themselves do not. It is only arrogant and willfully ignorant people who refuse to do so.

        • Beth
          May 15, 2015 at 12:41 pm #

          >>Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do.<<

          That's THE. WHOLE. POINT. You are saying you are doing your research and that you know better than the consensus of modern scientists but you don't read actual scientific research and you admit that you wouldn't understand it if you did. Which is why you are not qualified to say that the people who DO the science and UNDERSTAND the science are wrong.
          Those scienitific papers you are not able to understand? They show that vaccines are safe and do not cause all the terrible things you think they do. They explain, with convincing evidence, why the various youtube videos you are posting are inaccurate and misleading.
          That's why you believe that vaccines are going to hurt you or your family. Because you are not educated enough or scientifically literate enough to understand the actual facts.
          You just admitted that you are not able to read and understand the scientific evidence – but you still think you somehow know better than the scientists. Do you not see the logic fail there?

        • Monkey Professor for a Head
          May 15, 2015 at 11:23 pm #

          So you don’t read the scientific evidence behind vaccines, and you couldn’t understand it if you did, but you felt the need to come and “educate” us?

        • Poogles
          May 16, 2015 at 12:40 am #

          “Lay people have to work for a living. They don’t have time to poor [sic] over detailed scientific papers, nor can they understand them if they do.”

          So you admit you haven’t read the “detailed scientific papers” nor would you understand them if you did. So why should we listen to you again?

          Also, you can’t even provide citations to papers you at least think support your case and then we can discuss the pros and cons of the study and see what we get? Or would that still be too difficult for you to understand?

    • Sullivan ThePoop
      May 15, 2015 at 7:53 am #

      Dr. Suzanne Humphries is not a reliable source.

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 11:10 am #

        I’ve heard that before. That’s always your answer to anyone you disagree with.

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 15, 2015 at 11:17 am #

          No, it is always my answer when you post unreliable information from unreliable sources.

        • momofone
          May 15, 2015 at 11:17 am #

          Perhaps you’ve heard it before because there’s merit to it.

          Think about it this way: I keep saying these things to people and offering these sources, and I keep getting the same feedback. Obviously it’s all these people giving me this feedback who are mistaken.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          May 15, 2015 at 12:45 pm #

          I’ve heard that before. That’s always your answer to anyone you disagree with.

          Nah, not everyone we disagree with. Just those with whom we are familiar and know that they are full of it.

          Unfortunately, in the anti-vaxx world, there is a pretty small cast of characters that everyone points to, so we know all about them.

    • May 15, 2015 at 11:42 am #

      p sure ive accidentally injested more aluminium than has been in all my vaccines combined

      • DelphiniumFalcon
        May 15, 2015 at 12:31 pm #

        Hope no one here drinks soda from a can. Think of all the aluminums!

        • momofone
          May 15, 2015 at 12:32 pm #

          Does that mean I should stop eating the pop tops?

    • Bishop
      May 28, 2015 at 11:11 am #

      You have to be some kind of seriously stupid to post that Humphries crap here. What’s next? Boyd Haley’s chemtrail silliness?

  11. Jake
    May 15, 2015 at 1:53 am #

    If a parent is wanting to avoid anti-vaxxers there is a currently a choice….homeschool. that its what this bill is asking of antivaxers. So the real debate is which group will have to homeschool there children?

    • Nick Sanders
      May 15, 2015 at 2:30 am #

      The group taking the pointless risk.

      Duh.

      • Wren
        May 15, 2015 at 2:52 am #

        Yep. The people willing to protect society’s most vulnerable get the reward of schools.

    • Sullivan ThePoop
      May 15, 2015 at 7:55 am #

      The state has the right and responsibility to protect the children in their care.

    • JJ
      May 15, 2015 at 11:08 am #

      If anti-vaxers want to rebel against the global scientific consensus and not conform to society by helping others stay protected from disease, then THEY can bear the consequence of their decisions. You should not get the benefits of society if you opt out of participating to making it safe in sensible ways. Should you be able to drunk drive and I should just stay home to protect myself?

      • Nick Sanders
        May 15, 2015 at 1:21 pm #

        Yep, you want to be an iconoclast, you don’t get to half-ass it just because it’s become an inconvenience. Put up or shut up.

  12. May 14, 2015 at 9:10 pm #

    Thank you for writing this. The hypocrisy is so strong with vaccine-deniers.

  13. HippieSkeptic
    May 14, 2015 at 7:11 pm #

    I have another one. Kid gets his first MMR, say it’s at age 4 (not the schedule I know, but just say). Blood draw a month later shows immunity to all three pathogens. Would they have to get the second MMR under sb 277?

    • Nick Sanders
      May 14, 2015 at 7:24 pm #

      If they wanted to attend public school.

      • HippieSkeptic
        May 14, 2015 at 7:30 pm #

        (It’s public and private school, for the record.) But they are immune to the diseases in question and pose no risk to any person at all. So why should they be required to get a second shot?

        • Who?
          May 14, 2015 at 7:46 pm #

          Because that’s the rule. Their parents would also be well advised to drive on the correct side of the road to the appointment, for the same reason.

          Rugged individualists would of course want to go cross country to avoid using roads they didn’t want to pay for.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm #

            That’s not rational. It is rational to drive on the correct side of the road. It is not rational to give someone an injection neither they (nor anyone else) in fact needs because their immunity to the diseases in question has already been shown.

          • Who?
            May 14, 2015 at 11:51 pm #

            You’ll be resorting to the patronising, lazy and shallow ‘common sense’ next. ‘Rational’ as used by someone who is at least sympathetic to the view that vaccines are more dangerous than the illnesses they protect against is almost as empty.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            May 15, 2015 at 2:08 am #

            It is very rational to give an extra shot.

            If you give an extra shot to everybody those that are not protected are highly likely to become protected and those that were protected are highly unlikely to have any side effect (apart from a sore arm).

            If you do titers: first you get a blood test (much more painful, especially for little children with small veins), then you get the results like one week after. If you are negative, you get the shot, if you are not you skip it. Ok, but 7% of the kids got two needles and all of them a painful one. Apart from that it takes at least two appointments, something that is simply not very practical
            I would like to hear from you which adverse reaction to the MMR is frequent or can happen if someone is already inmune to the disease and why.

          • Wren
            May 15, 2015 at 2:55 am #

            But it is rational to do a blood draw and test for titres on every child who is given a vaccine?

            A blood draw is generally more painful and traumatic for the child, the risks of vaccination are extremely small and I would hazard a guess that it is more cost effective to give a second dose of the vaccine than it is to test for titres.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            May 15, 2015 at 3:05 am #

            Plus once you start adding in extra barriers to vaccination, the compliance rate is going to fall. That’s one of the reasons for having combined vaccines such as MMR – the simpler you can make the vaccination schedule, the less children will fall through the gaps.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 15, 2015 at 9:28 am #

            I find it amazing that while anti-vaxxers complain about all the profits from vaccines for the manufacturers, others have no problem suggesting an absolute windfall for labs!

            Imagine all the blood testing businesses popping up if this were implemented. It would be like the car inspection places in Texas.

            Every pharmacy would put in a blood test machine. Talk about BigPharmacy!

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 9:47 am #

            Especially considering MMR titers cost from $300-400 where I am. That’s a lot of money per kid when a booster only costs $100 (and its cheaper or even free at the state health department). That’s doesn’t even take into consideration that some kids who got titers would need a booster as well and would have both expenses.

          • Cobalt
            May 15, 2015 at 9:58 am #

            Blood draws have risks, too. Granted, they are typically miniscule, but anytime you poke something “straight into your bloodstream” (for real this time!), there’s a risk of excessive bleeding, bruising, infection, reaction to the adhesive on the bandage, etc.

            And blood draws on little kids aren’t easy for the kid, certainly much more difficult and painful than a vaccine. Vaccine injections usually use a narrower needle, too.

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 10:14 am #

            Drawing titers is just not practical (for us, anyway). My son gets strep fairly frequently, and his pediatrician sends us to the hospital for blood draw and penicillin shot (I can’t remember why exactly–I think it’s because she doesn’t keep that dosage in her office). The first time was not too bad. The second time he was more apprehensive, but still mostly calm, until the penicillin needle went too far. The third time? He wasn’t getting out of the car. And he’s too big now for me to carry, so what options would that leave me? He’s fine with an injection, but I have to question whether someone arguing for blood draws has any actual experience with actual kids having them. Subjecting them to that (in my experience anyway) is a hell of a lot more traumatic than just giving the shot.

          • Poogles
            May 16, 2015 at 12:48 am #

            I agree completely! I would much, much rather get a IM shot than get blood drawn. I’ve never almost lost consciousness after a shot, but have (twice) after getting blood drawn.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD
          May 14, 2015 at 8:01 pm #

          Because the first shot is not enough. Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air? There is a reason for every vaccination, a reason for the timing and a reason for the number of doses.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 8:05 pm #

            Correct me if I am wrong on this. But the first MMR works 93 percent of the time. If it works, it works. But sometimes it does not. So they give a second one to catch the last 7 percent. (You’re not, like 93% immune to something. You is or you isn’t.) But if you know, and it is possible to know, that it worked the first time, why would the second one be required under this law?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 8:42 pm #

            Because that 7% is a lot when you consider just how many millions of people you are talking about. And the herd immunity threshold is really high, somewhere between 92 and 95%, the second dose ensures that immunity rates are pushed over the threshold.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 10:13 pm #

            Oh, I totally get why they give the second shot overall. That other 7 percent of kids in the population. Totally. But if a specific known kid is known to have lab-confirmed immunity, then he should not need to have the second shot, right? His need for it is exactly zero, and his risk of side effects is higher than that.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 10:51 pm #

            Because false positives happen.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 11:17 pm #

            I suppose, though now we’re really in the land of small small probabilities. I’m not going to delve into the accuracy of measles titers, but at least this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9077425) seems to say that false negatives are much more common. That seems like a number that’s extant but so small as to be irrelevant.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 12:41 am #

            Betcha they are still more common than serious adverse reactions among those who had one dose without problem already.

          • Montserrat Blanco
            May 15, 2015 at 1:59 am #

            If you are already inmune the rates of adverse reactions are neglible. Most of the vaccine adverse reactions (except the sore arm) happen in people that are not inmune to the disease. Most of them because you are building inmunity to the virus/bacteria involved. If you are already inmune and you get the vaccine your inmune system gets activated and attacks whatever is in the vaccine and that is the end of it.

          • Mike Stevens
            May 15, 2015 at 6:57 am #

            You also need the kid to have the inconvenience and expense of a blood draw.
            Just get the 2nd vaccine dose and be done with it i say

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 4:13 pm #

            His need is not zero because the immune response from a booster is more vigorous and longer lasting. (See the link I posted for you above) Just because he’s immune at one month doesn’t mean he will be by high school without the booster. This is why the vaccine is tested to see what the minimum number of doses is to achieve adequate immunity and how often boosting is necessary to maintain that. It is not random that five doses of Dtap are required but only two of MMR. Often there are studies done post market to see if the number of boosters could be reduced or if it needs to be more frequent.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 10:20 pm #

            Another thing, since you mention the herd immunity rates. I’ll give you three points and say it’s 95%. The PBE rate in CA is something like 2.5 percent (and falling). Add the medical exemption rate of .2 percent and you get 2.7 percent. So what’s the crisis, exactly? If herd immunity clicks in at 95% and we’re over 95% … why do we need such a bill?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 10:47 pm #

            http://www.cnbc.com/id/102404942

          • JJ
            May 15, 2015 at 1:44 am #

            It is because the PBE rates are very high in some areas, not evenly distributed throughout the huge state, making pockets for disease to spread if introduced.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/27/californias-epidemic-of-vaccine-denial-mapped/

            http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27396612/data-vaccination-rates-at-california-elementary-schools

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 15, 2015 at 7:57 am #

            Community immunity is not a statewide thing. It is very local. What good is a state rate of 95% going to do for you if your child goes to a school with 67% or a church with 80%?

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 8:21 am #

            Because booster shots are also meant to ensure the length of time the immunity lasts is adequate. In this case two doses were found during initial studies of the vaccine to be the minimum number required to provide both adequate coverage (above herd immunity threshold) and coverage that in most cases lasts a lifetime. That’s why, for instance you could get a pertussis booster and be immune one month later (which you could prove with titers if they existed) but you still need boosters relatively frequently because studies of the vaccine show that coverage wanes after 2-3 years.

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 8:39 am #

            See the graph on page 7 for a visual of how the immune response is more vigorous after a second dose of vaccine. Also this doc is just a good read to begin with.
            http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

          • Chris Preston
            May 15, 2015 at 12:21 am #

            Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air?

            Sadly most anti-vaxers do think this is the case. They also tend to suffer from the Nirvana fallacy.

            Either that or they think the schedule is some nefarious mind-control plot.

          • Camille
            May 15, 2015 at 2:49 am #

            “Do you think they fabricate the vaccine schedule out of thin air?”

            That’s a good question. But, maybe they did this for simply more profits.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 15, 2015 at 7:19 am #

            So you do think they fabricate it out of thin air. Please supply proof for that claim.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:22 pm #

            The vaccine companies don’t set the schedule. Try again.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 18, 2015 at 12:32 pm #

            The people who set the schedule do not make any money off vaccines. This is an extremely illogical assumption

        • Nick Sanders
          May 14, 2015 at 8:38 pm #

          1. They are probably immune, not definitely immune.
          2. They made it just fine through the first shot, why should one more be a big deal?

    • Sullivan ThePoop
      May 15, 2015 at 8:06 am #

      The chances of a reaction to a second vaccine when you did not react to the first one is extremely unlikely. Even if you are immune after the first MMR the second will increase your response and reduce the possibility that it will wane. Even though I have been shown to be immune after a single MMR I got 42 years ago, if there was an outbreak in my area I would get another.

  14. Camille
    May 14, 2015 at 6:13 pm #

    What happened to Democrats being Pro Choice? They say a woman should have a right to say No for all things including sex and abortion, but they don’t believe she should have that right when it comes to putting toxic substances into her and her children’s bodies. That is unconscionable as well as tyrannical.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      May 14, 2015 at 6:22 pm #

      You can save the hyperbole, since it makes it difficult to take you seriously. You have to be extraordinarily privileged to pretend that contributing to public health is “tyranny.”

      And no amount of pretending makes anything in vaccines toxic. You’re flat out wrong and you won’t take even the smallest steps to correct your ignorance. YOU are the only thing dangerous in this situation, not vaccines.

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 2:37 am #

        Did you hear that Senator Pan lied and said the Pope was for forced vaccination. These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into the Pope’s mouth. Incredible!~

        “As a California Assemblyman, Pan sponsored legislation lowering standards for abortion facilities in 2013. He and Allen in tandem falsely asserted the Catholic Church supports their contentious legislation.

        “I believe there was a quote from the pope,” Pan said, “who I believe is the leader of the Catholic Church, saying that he believes in forced vaccination.”

        https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-vatican-backs-mandatory-vaccination-because-there-are-no-fetal-cells-in

        • yugaya
          May 15, 2015 at 6:23 am #

          “the Pope was for forced vaccination. These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into the Pope’s mouth. Incredible!~”

          Mandatory childhood vaccination schedule ≠ forced vaccination.

        • Mike Stevens
          May 15, 2015 at 6:37 am #

          Are you in the habit of spreading deliberate lies?
          Pan never said the Pope believes in “forced vaccination”.
          See the transcripts.
          http://www.whatthefolly.com/2015/05/05/transcript-ca-sen-joel-andersons-qa-on-sb-277-before-the-senate-judiciary-committee-april-28-2015/

          Now it may be that someone misheard “supports vaccination” as “forced vaccination”, but it is clear what Pan actually said.
          Please do not misquote him again.

          • Chris Preston
            May 15, 2015 at 8:29 am #

            So anti vaccine liars lie? Who would have guessed.

          • Wren
            May 15, 2015 at 8:37 am #

            These people will do anything to win. Even put quotes into a senator’s mouth.

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 15, 2015 at 8:08 am #

          Do you like to be lied to?

        • Chris Preston
          May 15, 2015 at 8:30 am #

          This looks like one of those ‘pants on fire’ moments for you.

          Perhaps it is time to apologise?

          • momofone
            May 15, 2015 at 10:03 am #

            I’m sure an apology won’t be necessary (or forthcoming); as on a previous post, Camille’s quotes and attributions can be sloppy and half-assed, and we aren’t supposed to let that get in the way of our blind acceptance of her claims.

    • Nick Sanders
      May 14, 2015 at 6:31 pm #

      Toxic? Oh lordy…

    • Sullivan ThePoop
      May 14, 2015 at 6:59 pm #

      There is nothing in vaccines at a toxic dose

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 2:34 am #

        Thimerosol, Aluminum, Polysorbate 80, Formaldehyde etc. etc. ad nauseum, and yes, at toxic doses.

        • Wren
          May 15, 2015 at 2:57 am #

          Toxic doses? Your evidence for that statement is?

          What is the toxic dose of say formaldehyde, as that was covered pretty well already? How much is in a vaccine? Pick the routine vaccine of your choice.

        • Mike Stevens
          May 15, 2015 at 7:00 am #

          A baby’s liver produces more formaldehyde in a day than it would get taking the entire vax schedule.
          Are you going to advocate neonates get operations to excise their livers at birth, to stop them dying from formaldehyde toxicity?

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 15, 2015 at 7:52 am #

          No, not at a toxic dose. Also, thimerosal is only in some multidose flu shots to prevent contamination like happened in Mexico. Aluminum salts, not aluminum. Aluminum salts have a lower toxicity than vinegar. Formaldehyde is not an ingredient it is used to inactivate pathogens and toxins then filtered out of the final product as much as possible without changing the efficacy of the vaccine. Polysorbate 80? Seriously? No, you are just wrong. There is nothing at a toxic dose in vaccines.

          • Bugsy
            May 15, 2015 at 1:11 pm #

            Yep. If the vaccine ingredients are in toxic doses as Camille has suggested, wouldn’t vaccines be killing all of us immediately?

        • momofone
          May 15, 2015 at 10:00 am #

          Please provide your credible source for this claim. Natural News/Joe Mercola/Dr. Tenpenny/Gary Null/etc. are not credible sources.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 15, 2015 at 11:01 am #

          If formaldehyde in vaccines is at a toxic level, how does anyone ever survive eating a pear?

    • JJ
      May 14, 2015 at 7:26 pm #

      You have have the choice to homeschool.

    • Montserrat Blanco
      May 15, 2015 at 7:02 am #

      You can homeschool. You can send them to a private school where vaccination is not compulsory. You can even move to another country. You are free to do as you want but you are not free to send your unvaxxed kids to a public school. You are not free to smoke inside a restaurant. You are not free to defecate in other people’s doorstep. It is a free country but that does not mean you do not have to abide to some rules. And yes, sometimes democracy has this things, sometimes a president you do not like gets elected, sometimes a law you do not like gets approved… As it is a free country you can at least write about your disappointment in a blog and try to convince other people that the law is wrong.

      • JJ
        May 15, 2015 at 11:16 am #

        Yes! The no smoking laws! More proof that public health laws make sense. Like smoking, you can do so in your home but if you want to smoke in a public place it is not the non-smokers problem. If anti-vaxers want to not vaccinate then they get to homeschool and have less access to public places (school). Besides, don’t public schools teach pro-vax propaganda?

        • Bugsy
          May 15, 2015 at 1:10 pm #

          It’s an interesting parallel. I don’t remember much regarding smoking laws being passed – I was a kid when most of the ones near us passed, and I grew up in a family of non-smokers. However, my guess is that the outcry from smokers on those laws was somewhat similar to the outcry from anti-vaxxers regarding SB 277. “My body, my choice!!!”

          • Megan
            May 15, 2015 at 4:16 pm #

            It was just like that. It is a great parallel.

          • Poogles
            May 16, 2015 at 12:51 am #

            “the outcry from smokers on those laws was somewhat similar to the outcry from anti-vaxxers”

            Oh yes. And the outright denial when you try to point out that their action endangers the health of those around them.

    • Megan
      May 15, 2015 at 8:35 am #

      Why assume we are democrats? I know many republicans who are pro-vax. Intelligence does cross party lines you know. you shouldn’t assume to know our political leanings (or that we are even U.S. citizens).

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 15, 2015 at 8:37 am #

        Intelligence does cross party lines you know

        WHAT? People who vote differently from me might be intelligent? A ridiculous claim! (The US is having a little problem with polarization right now and while I’m being sarcastic I do wonder sometimes if there aren’t people out there that believe something like that.)

      • Nick Sanders
        May 15, 2015 at 1:29 pm #

        Hell, there are even some libertarians running around here. And they’re on board with this too.

        Plus, I sorta doubt I’m the only one here who is only a “Democrat” because the Greens are too in love with woo (anti-nuclear power, anti-GMO? keep walking buddy) and the other genuinely leftist American parties couldn’t put together a proper campaign if their lives depended on it.

    • Andrew Lazarus
      May 28, 2015 at 2:48 am #

      There has never been a choice to bring communicable diseases into public space and everyone from Libertarians to Communists seems to understand this. Only the Narcissists get left out.

  15. Nick Sanders
    May 14, 2015 at 3:48 pm #

    It passed the Senate and is on it’s way to the Assembly:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_28115461/bill-restricting-vaccine-exemptions-overwhelmingly-passes-state-senate

    • The Computer Ate My Nym
      May 14, 2015 at 3:55 pm #

      Wow. I didn’t think it had a snowball’s chance in hell, but apparently people in California are tired of hosting disease.

      • JJ
        May 14, 2015 at 3:59 pm #

        I am pleasantly surprised that is is passing as well. This Californian is very excited!

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 15, 2015 at 8:28 am #

          Now if only Big Naturopathy doesn’t keep it from passing the house or pressure the governor to veto, you might start getting your infectious disease problems under control. No more children being admitted to the hospital with measles! (Well, fewer. I note that there was a “compromise” loophole inserted that will allow some parents to get away with leaving their children vulnerable to infectious diseases and cancer.)

      • Camille
        May 15, 2015 at 2:38 am #

        But, we love to host autism, allergies, asthma, autoimmune deficiencies…and that is just the “A’s” Courtesy of vaccines.

        • Mishimoo
          May 15, 2015 at 3:04 am #

          See, my sister had pretty bad asthma. Caught up on her vaccines and it’s gone. I have two joint disorders and some odd allergies, same thing. Caught up on my vaccines and I feel better than ever + I hardly have hayfever any more. Also, I thought you gave up on reaching us with your pseudoscience like two days ago?

          • Who?
            May 15, 2015 at 6:17 am #

            I’m sure you’ll find that your experiences are mere anecdote, not worth noticing or mentioning, whereas Camille’s experiences, and those of her internet friends, are profound, powerful and compelling reasons for doing whatever it is Camille believes in this week.

            Great news re the Bill, btw.

            Good to know you’re all up to date.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 8:26 am #

            Vaccination against specific antigens is one method of reducing severe respiratory allergies (i.e. “allergy shots”). The basic idea, as I understand it (and bear in mind that I’m not an allergist), is that you convince the immune system to make IgG antibodies against the allergen and that downregulates other antibody classes, including IgE.

          • Mishimoo
            May 15, 2015 at 9:02 am #

            I’m seriously considering it if my housedust allergy ever makes a return because it seems like a logical idea and much easier than taking antihistamines regularly.

        • Mike Stevens
          May 15, 2015 at 7:03 am #

          Proof that any of those are linked by scientific evidence to vaccination?
          Peer -reviewed science publications only, please, and not isolated cherry-picked items but a totality of the evidence on the topics please.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 15, 2015 at 8:24 am #

          1. How can “vaccines”, which are no more alike than “medicine” or “supplements” cause anything?
          2. Assuming one or more vaccines causes some health problem, why would it cause such a number of diverse health problems? What mechanism of action could possibly cause all those problems?

          3. I’m generally very happy when my patients are autoimmune deficient. It’s when they’ve got a sufficient number of autoimmune problems that things get difficult.

    • Megan
      May 15, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

      I just wish it hadn’t gotten watered down with a 10 vaccine limit and ainer grandfathering clause. I guess they had to appease the ignorant a little to get it to pass at all.

      • Megan
        May 15, 2015 at 6:21 pm #

        *and a liberal grandfathering clause. Damned autocorrect…

  16. HippieSkeptic
    May 14, 2015 at 2:19 pm #

    I came across this this morning, and it put me through a mental exercise.

    Here’s the story:

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-09-17-2472804019_x.htm

    Basically, the pneumonia vaccine Prevnar eliminated certain bacteria, therefore opening up an ecological niche for another drug-resistant bug to fill. Now, I don’t believe Prevnar is on the list of shots for SB 277, so ok. But just as a kind of brain exercise. If I give my kid a Prevnar shot to protect the vulnerable kid next door from pneumonia, that’s great, right? Good for me. But then, two years later, the vulnerable kid across the street gets a drug resistant infection and gets very very sick. So did that medical intervention help someone? Or hurt someone?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
      May 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm #

      There is no such thing as a world without health threats. As soon as we eliminate one, another comes along. We face them as they come, so that we can survive to face the next one. The alternative is to give up and die.

      • HippieSkeptic
        May 14, 2015 at 2:30 pm #

        But yet it’s worth a major intrusion into people’s right to make medical decisions—what many would call a fundamental, essential human right—to, to what? To go from a world with health threats to … a world with health threats?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 14, 2015 at 3:48 pm #

          A world with health threats, some of which are completely unnecessary and only there because some people couldn’t be bothered to do a simple act that would eliminate them, or one with only those health threats that can not yet be eliminated. Which would you rather have? I’m grateful to prior generations for their willingness to be vaccinated against small pox so I don’t have to worry about either the disease or the vaccine. Shouldn’t I be ready to do the same to eliminate measles, rubella, and polio?

          The article to me reads like an argument for a better vaccine, not an argument to not vaccinate. Get rid of the drug resistant strain that’s causing the problem–without the need to give any antibiotics.

        • Nick Sanders
          May 14, 2015 at 3:52 pm #

          “But yet it’s worth a major intrusion into people’s right to make medical decisions”

          It’s not a major intrusion.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 4:30 pm #

            If it’s important to that person, it’s a major intrusion. I might think birth control is no big thing, but to force it on someone else, that’s a big thing. Even making someone take aspirin so they can get an education, that’s a big deal. Giving someone an injection, which may be safe enough in the aggregate, but dangerous for that particular person .. it’s a big deal.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 4:35 pm #

            No one is being forced to get the injection. Although honestly, a general mandate would not bother me in the least.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 14, 2015 at 4:53 pm #

            If it’s important to that person, it’s a major intrusion.

            yow, that’s a slippery slope. If having others vaccinated is important to me, can I then claim that anti-vaxxers are causing an intrusion? And then someone claims I am an intrusion, and the next thing you know, everything is an intrusion to someone. At that point, the concept is meaningless.

          • MaineJen
            May 14, 2015 at 5:00 pm #

            If getting vaccinated is truly dangerous for you (like, say, you are undergoing chemotherapy), you get a medical exemption. If you don’t qualify for a medical exemption…maybe there’s a reason. That reason is: the disease itself is more risky than the vaccine.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 5:39 pm #

            Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but do you have those numbers? Like, what are the risks of death, shock, seizures, and screaming, respectively, for a pertussis shot? I know the numbers are low, but has anyone got the specifics?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 6:39 pm #

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#tdap

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 6:53 pm #

            So 1 in 14,000 have seizures. 1 in 1,000 with the insane crying. And call it 16 a year (given about 4 million kids born, who get 4 shots of dtap in their first year) die or have brain damage. I know that you can’t get very statistically good with such small numbers, but 1 in a million seems ok to use. For those 16 parents, this really happened to them. Or the parents with the seizures or the screaming. You don’t have to be crazy as a parent to think “Please, state, don’t make me do that again.”

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 14, 2015 at 6:58 pm #

            But the risk of dying from the disease is HIGHER. What’s the benefit of preventing a prolonged crying episode only to end up dying from the disease the vaccine was supposed to prevent?

            Your argument is like insisting that you won’t buckle your children into car seats because of the risk that they won’t be able to get out of the car in the event that it catches fire in an accident. It doesn’t make much sense.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

            Well, they’ve already had one dose of whatever shot it is, so they have a 93 % chance (in the case of MMR) of being protected anyway. And yes, they are relying on herd immunity and the fact that a lot of people DON’T die of measles. So the devil you don’t know starts looking a lot more attractive. And I can really understand that. I think a lot of people could. (Remember, my hypothetical parent here isn’t the parent of a vaccine-naive kid, they’re the parent of a vaccine-reactive kid.) Or, to take your example. If your first kid through some kind freak accident got trapped in the car by their seatbelt and drowned, you sure would feel some strange conflicting feelings everything you buckled the seatbelt.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 14, 2015 at 7:15 pm #

            The beauty of human intelligence is that we can understand something even if it isn’t right in front of us. If the risk of death is higher from not being vaccinated than from the vaccine, what difference does it make what you see?

            As parents we constantly make decisions that are children don’t like at the time because of the long term benefit. Taking a child to the dentist when he is afraid of the dentist is extremely unpleasant. It would be much easier to avoid the scene altogther and skip the dentist, but as parents we know that it would be far worse to let their teeth decay. The same principle applies to vaccines.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 7:28 pm #

            But on the flip side of the dentist argument, if a parent was feeding their kids Cheetos and Mountain Dew all day long, potentially harming them and exposing them to many many long term risks, the state would not withhold that child’s right to an education—we wouldn’t do anything at all.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 14, 2015 at 7:59 pm #

            You’re missing the point. The point is that sometimes a parent has to watch a child suffer to prevent a greater harm down the road. Do you understand? Do you agree or disagree?

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 8:09 pm #

            Sometimes, sure. But I can’t agree to applying that in every case. Parents might beat the crap out of their kids to avoid harm down the road (in their minds). That doesn’t make it right. Or, a milder example. a parent might drive their kid super hard on piano lessons because that will make him better in the future and it backfires and the kid hates piano and hates his parents. I think you can look at that a bunch of different ways.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 8:54 pm #

            Because the kid’s bad teeth don’t put the other children in the school at risk.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 10:28 pm #

            I knew there was something incomplete about the dentist argument. Right o. So it takes us back to the abortion argument I raised earlier. If overpopulation is an issue of public health and national security, as it was in China, and the state consequently then limits people’s ability to reproduce and make decisions about their bodies and families, well, we don’t think that’s very great at all. Here too, you’re talking about public health and other people being at risk and consequent forced medical interventions to protect them. And so, for me, it doesn’t sit right.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 15, 2015 at 9:34 am #

            I knew there was something incomplete about the dentist argument. Right o.

            So instead of just throwing a bunch of shit against the wall and hoping something sticks, why not stop and think a little bit?

            From an observer standpoint, it’s very clear that you really haven’t thought about any of this all that much, and are just throwing out a bunch of ignorant “well what about this….” scenarios.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 8:45 pm #

            The issue has nothing to do with feelings, it’s a matter of public safety. Much like it doesn’t matter how individuals feel about speed limits or building codes.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 10:24 pm #

            In theory you’re right, but the framework of the debate has been “protect the immunocompromised.” They’re an edge case, since their numbers are relatively small, and they’re protected anyway, since vaccine levels in CA are sufficient for herd immunity as we’ve said elsewhere. (Or, you could argue, they’ll never be fully protected no matter what. Not sure where I fall on that one.) But eitherhow, the push for approval has been an emotional one — take care of the people who cannot take care of themselves. But if we are to have feelings about that set of people, ought we not also have feelings about another set of people? (Who are also an edge case, it should be said.) Both parties are afraid of a real but unlikely situation.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 10:45 pm #

            “since vaccine levels in CA are sufficient for herd immunity as we’ve said elsewhere.”

            Except they aren’t:
            http://www.healthline.com/health-news/measles-spreads-in-california-due-to-unvaccinated-kids-012315

            According to a recent study published in the journal Pediatrics, about 3 percent of California’s population opts out of the recommended vaccination schedules. But they are not spread evenly across the state.
            In certain areas of California, unvaccinated children make up more than 20 percent of the child population.

            http://www.trbimg.com/img-5407ab85/turbine/la-me-school-vaccines-20140903

            https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/01/vaccines21.png&w=1484

          • momofone
            May 14, 2015 at 11:55 pm #

            Well, sure. But feelings are not facts, and are not reliable in many decisions, seatbelt use among them.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 11:47 am #

            The seatbelt argument. About that. If your seatbelt malfunctions and hurts or kills you, you (or your heirs) can choose to never buy a Ford again. You can sue the pants off Ford. If a lot of people are injured, they can do a class action kind of lawsuit. This is very expensive for Ford! So Ford has a major incentive to make sure its seatbelts are absolutely as safe safe safe as possible. Same with a drug. If the drug causes problems or if the company conceals research (and we know there’s already a problem with companies not publishing negative results), you can sue, you can stop taking the drug, whatever. BUT. And btw here let me say that I think that vaccines are an amazing technology. Salk is a hero. The men and women who work in that industry are smart, caring, diligent, they walk their dogs and they read to their kids. They are good people. But for vaccines, unlike for seatbelts or drugs, if you have a reaction, or if you get a contaminated lot, the company is completely protected. You cannot sue them. Again, this doesn’t make the people who work there bad or malfeasant, but it does make the incentives for the vaccine division as an entity are a little bit different than the incentives for the drug division or for the car company. That’s not heebie-jeebie conspiracy anything, that’s just market forces at work. (Or rather, in this case, not at work.) It means that the drug company — no matter how excellent its researchers and staff — is not incentivized to create a product that’s absolutely as safe as possible. Just a product that’s safe enough.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 4:02 pm #

            Ford has extremely good lawyers. Sue Ford and what you’re likely to get is stuck with the court costs. Ford did not redesign the Pinto because they estimated that the potential lawsuits would cost them less than the redesign. The court system favors the wealthy. OTOH, if you even think that something bad that happened to you might be related to a vaccine, you can get compensated with relatively little fuss.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 4:44 pm #

            Who do you sue if your child dies or is seriously injured because a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child and your child becomes ill with the condition that their child is carrying? Who will compensate the parents of infants who die of vaccine preventable illnesses because other parents decided that their children needed to be “pure” and that that purity was more important than another child’s life?

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 3:26 pm #

            The thing with seat belts is this. If your seatbelt goes wrong and hurts or kills you, you or your heirs can sue Ford or refuse to buy Ford cars any more. If a regular drug hurts or kill you, you or your heirs can sue the manufacturer or refuse to take the drug any more. So Ford and the drug company have some good motivations to make their products as safe as possible. But vaccines are not like that. (And here let me say that I think they are an amazing technology and that Salk is a hero. The men and women who work to make vaccines every day are good smart people who walk their dogs and read to their kids and they are helping people.) With vaccines however, you cannot sue the manufacturer. And under this law, you cannot stop using them. Now, we already know that there is a problem with companies failing to publish negative results. It stands to reason that a vaccine manufacture would a) also not publish negative results and b) that they have an incentive to make a product that’s pretty good but not as good as it can possibly be. That’s not any kind of conspiracy heebie-jeebies. That’s just the effect of (or rather, absence of) market forces. Given those circumstances, it seems wrong to make their product mandatory.

          • Beth
            May 15, 2015 at 3:50 pm #

            You know what? If someone had lost their child that way in a freak accident I would totally understand them having misgivings about putting seatbelts on their children forever after. It would be irrational but totally understandable.
            What I don’t accept is someone who doesn’t want to put a seatbelt on their child because someone’s kid somewhere once died that way or because they heard someone’s kid did, or because they can imagine that a kid *might* conceivably die that way and they just don’t want to chance it. That is irrational and NOT understandable. And that’s what the antivaxxers are doing.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 4:46 pm #

            Incidentally, if you’re in a car that goes into the water you’re more likely to survive if you were wearing a seatbelt when the car went in because you’re more likely to be uninjured and able to climb out before it goes under completely.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 14, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

            The risk of insane crying and febrile seizures is much higher with a natural infection

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 7:06 pm #

            Yep, sure. Agree. But that’s not what that particular parent saw.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 7:25 pm #

            And?

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 14, 2015 at 7:40 pm #

            Okay, but the best way to go about it is to explain to the parent that the best thing to do is vaccinate. Not to just say, okay here is an exemption.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 14, 2015 at 7:47 pm #

            Yes, you are totally right. And that is what ab 2109 did in CA. To get a personal belief exemption, you have to have a meeting with your doctor and talk about it. And the rate of PBEs has dropped 20% since it was enacted. To me that seems like a correct degree of examination and information delivery.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 10:53 pm #

            And if that actually were a correct amount, the Disneyland outbreak would have been prevented through higher vaccination rates. But it wasn’t so clearly stronger measures need to be taken.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 11:37 am #

            Well, let’s think about that. The strain that caused the outbreak was from the Philippines. Now, what’s the portion of international visitors to Disneyland? Well, for Disneyworld it’s about 20 % so let’s use that for Disneyland. Furthermore, the rates of vaccination in LA county and that area are very very high (I’m guessing many other visitors are local). Well, that’s 20ish percent of visitors to Disneyland with unknown vaccination status. Even if every state in the country passed SB 277, your risk of outbreaks at Disneyland would still be pretty high. Might be lower than it is now, but I don’t think by a lot (given that we’re only taking about 2.5 percent of US people who would get their additional shots overall). So to prevent outbreaks, shouldn’t we make entry to Disneyland contingent on vaccination status? (And, frankly, if you’re immune compromised, going to Disneyland is not a great idea even if the whole world has their measles shots.)

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 12:47 pm #

            Except the Disneyland outbreak didn’t just stay at Disneyland. It spread out into the rest of the state and neighboring states.

          • Andrew Lazarus
            May 28, 2015 at 2:52 am #

            At least one Philippine measles strain has been bouncing around the USA since 2013, when an unvaccinated Amish missionary brought it back as a souvenir. Largest measles outbreak of 2013-14.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 14, 2015 at 7:24 pm #

            So, let’s compare those to the numbers of what happens with actual pertussis infections.

          • JJ
            May 14, 2015 at 7:32 pm #

            YES! It’s like the diseases have no side effects, only the vaccines!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 8:44 am #

            A child who has a seizure after the DTP has a medical exemption from that vaccine from then on. The state doesn’t “make” those parents give the child that shot again.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 11:23 am #

            I’m not so sure about that. It’s state by state as we’ve said downthread, and seizures don’t necessarily count toward a PME because they’re a “normal” reaction. But happy to see an example to the contrary.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 11:35 am #

            Reference?

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 11:53 am #

            This is the West Virginia info — I’m not going to go through every state. http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/oeps/immunization/Pages/MedEx.aspx
            From this it’s unclear if seizures would count as “allergic” or “normal.” I suspect they would count as normal. And if one kid in a family died of a vaccine (rare, but happens) it’s not clear if a second kid would be exempt, since that probably counts as “family history.” But if you have examples of kids with seizure reactions getting PMEs, happy to see it.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 3:58 pm #

            Seizures would count as a serious adverse event.

          • MaineJen
            May 15, 2015 at 8:38 am #

            …screaming?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:41 pm #

            HS has said that making the child uncomfortable is a valid reason not to continue vaccinations.

          • MaineJen
            May 15, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

            FFS. A few moments of discomfort (I tell my kids it’s going to hurt about as much as a bee sting, but the pain will go away much more quickly) is not worth a lifetime without VPIs? Are we being serious right now?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 3:02 pm #

            More or less. She’s said that seeing a kid cry can make a parent worry, and that’s a legitimate reason for the parent to have second thoughts that we must respect.

          • Mike Stevens
            May 15, 2015 at 2:40 am #

            I am a utilitarian.
            My philosophy here is a teleological one, not a deontological one.

          • HippieSkeptic
            May 15, 2015 at 11:27 am #

            I’m not sure what you mean, but I had to look those words up and I like them!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD
          May 14, 2015 at 4:03 pm #

          It’s not a major intrusion. It’s certainly less of an intrusion than insisting your child go to school for 12 years.

    • Mike Stevens
      May 14, 2015 at 7:03 pm #

      Did you go to the source study?
      Basically, the elimination of around 60% of the usual pneumococcal srotypes has seen one of the remaining serotypes become slightly commoner, by a few percent overall.
      Still a huge win for the vaccine.

      • HippieSkeptic
        May 14, 2015 at 7:10 pm #

        It’s still a pretty interesting thought experiment, epidemiologically.

        • JJ
          May 14, 2015 at 7:23 pm #

          I believe this falls under the nirvana fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

          No medical intervention is perfect but vaccines save lives. If researchers track unfavorable outcomes with a vaccine then they will intervene on that when the time comes. In the meantime, I am glad that I at least don’t have to worry about my loved ones dying from a growing list of vaccine preventable diseases.

        • Mike Stevens
          May 15, 2015 at 2:37 am #

          Similar thought experiment.
          A terrorist has wired a bomb to blow up in a football stadium with 100,000 people in it blow up, which would kill about 50 people, and maim hundreds more.
          However, you can inactivate this bomb, but only if you fire a gunshot at random into the crowd, in which your own kids are sitting somewhere.
          What do you do?

          • Who?
            May 15, 2015 at 6:19 am #

            HS goes to live where no one plays football.

            Obviously. Or aren’t you privileged enough to be able to do the same?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 15, 2015 at 1:37 pm #

            “where no one plays football”
            Where is this blessed utopia?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 15, 2015 at 8:30 am #

            Note that the gunshot won’t necessarily hit anyone and if it hits someone won’t necessarily kill or seriously injure them. Most gunshots in this context result in someone being seriously annoyed when the shot grazes their skin slightly. But the possibility that someone might be killed is there.

    • Mike Stevens
      May 15, 2015 at 6:25 am #

      ” the vulnerable kid across the street gets a drug resistant infection”
      In fact there is some good evidence vaccination against pneumococcus is linked to less antibiotic resistance, not more. It seems that vaccination helps eliminate strains that are resistant to beta lactam antibiotics (eg penicillin, amoxicillins, cephalosporins)
      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X13006300

  17. Camille
    May 13, 2015 at 12:20 am #

    Here: Everyone needs to watch this film: Silent Epidemic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1m3TjokVU4

    • Mathi Bear
      May 13, 2015 at 12:23 am #

      Watch an almost 2 hour video? No. If you have a point to make you can summarize it.

    • Chris Preston
      May 13, 2015 at 1:49 am #

      A film made by Gary Null, a purveyor of useless dietary supplements?

      No I don’t think I will bother.

      Now if you found a film about vaccines that featured leading medical researchers, I might be interested in that.

    • Monkey professor for a head
      May 13, 2015 at 1:50 am #

      You might have better luck persuading people if you post links to actual scientific research published in reputable journals.

    • Sue
      May 13, 2015 at 4:27 am #

      There is no “untold story” – the science of vaccination is open, if you are able and willing to understand it.

    • Megan
      May 13, 2015 at 8:51 am #

      The fact that you continue to post this kind of crap shows that you: a) have no idea how to identify a scientific source, b) don’t know where to look for one, or c) are willfully ignorant. Or a combination of the above. I even told you where to look for a scientific research paper (pubmed) but you declared that not credible, which is downright laughable. Or perhaps you looked there but could not find any sources to support your position? Nah, that takes a lot more work than posting misquotes, antivax blog articles or YouTube videos.

      • Camille
        May 14, 2015 at 12:18 pm #

        Gee, Megan, I told you the other day that I was ribbing you by claiming pubmed was not credible, yet you don’t put that explanation on your post but use it as an excuse to discredit me. Your ad hominem attacks are pathetic attempts to keep people from looking at the other side of the vaccine debate: that they can have very real side effects to them and can be deadly, and if not deadly, can cause serious harm.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head
          May 14, 2015 at 12:43 pm #

          And still you have not posted anything evidence from a reputable source to support your position. If you genuinely want to convince people that vaccines are as harmful as you say, proving it with real evidence would be the first place to start. But since you have repeatedly ignored calls to do so, I’m getting the impression that you either have no evidence or you gave no idea what constitutes a reputable source (or the ever increasing possibility that you are a troll who just enjoys stirring shit).

          • Camille
            May 14, 2015 at 3:46 pm #

            I think the video above is a good place for people to get that evidence. But, anything that goes counter to your pro-vaccine agenda you will call not credible, so why bother. I am not out to convince you. That would be impossible as you have swallowed the Kool Aid. But, for others that might come over here who are not convinced, please watch the video.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            May 14, 2015 at 7:25 pm #

            So you have real evidence but you don’t want to link to it as we wouldn’t believe you anyway? Or that video is the best “evidence” you have?

            So why are you bothering to post here? Do you think you’re going to change anyone’s mind without posting real evidence for your point of view? Or are you just trolling?

          • momofone
            May 14, 2015 at 11:57 pm #

            I’m placing my bet on all of the above.

        • Megan
          May 14, 2015 at 9:12 pm #

          There is no “other side” to be debate because science overwhelmingly supports vaccines. The “other side” is fabricated out of ignorance by antivaxxers.

        • Megan
          May 14, 2015 at 9:17 pm #

          And if you truly do think pubmed is credible why don’t you cute some scientific papers supporting your position?

          • Megan
            May 14, 2015 at 9:17 pm #

            *cite

    • Bugsy
      May 13, 2015 at 9:16 am #

      Thanks, but I’ve learned over time to not take seriously documentaries…on any side of an issue. I could make one stating that cats cause cancer, and if it looks legitimate enough, people will believe it…

      (Nothing against the precious kitty in my lap right now, of course!)

  18. Amazed
    May 12, 2015 at 10:06 pm #

    Hmm, let me translate what a rude commenter wrote under an article here (a few days ago, we were graced with the wisdom of internet mamas insisting that “the doctor should consider whether the child needs vaccines or not”. That’s called taking each case individually, if you don’t know.

    “What pampered brats you are! In less than 50 years you’ve become so spoiled that now you have no idea what it’s like to shake with horror each time your child develops a fever and pray it isn’t something that’ll send them to the grave in ten or so days.”

    So rude and so true,

    • Megan
      May 12, 2015 at 10:26 pm #

      It is so true. Antivaxxers have no idea how horrible meningitis, epiglotitis, diphtheria, and many other VPI’s are. If they did, they would never skip a vaccine. They are fortunate that others are vaccinating their own children and thus, protecting the children of antivaxxers.

      • Sue
        May 12, 2015 at 11:31 pm #

        I trained at a time when HiB epiglottitis was still a scary reality. Kids who looked sick and were quiet and drooling had to be handled with great care, not upset, not made to lie down in case they might occlude their airway. They went very quietly to operating suite for an inhalational induction.

        Since the 1980’s, with vaccination, HiB epiglottitis is essentially gone from our communities. No change in sanitation or nutrition, no change in standard of living, just the vax.

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 13, 2015 at 8:03 am #

          Not just epiglottitis. Since widespread Hib vaccinations primary sinus infections in young children are almost unheard of.

          • Empliau
            May 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm #

            I read somewhere that the first sinus infection is frequently the gateway to others. As someone who has seriously expletived up sinuses, I would like the person who may have spared generations this scourge to get the Nobel prize. Possibly a whole series of Nobel prizes.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 14, 2015 at 10:07 am #

            Meaning, among other things, fewer children taking antibiotics and selecting their normal flora for antibiotic resistance. Hmm…wonder if we could vaccinate cows against Hib and eliminate the need for feed lot antibiotics?

      • Bugsy
        May 13, 2015 at 10:28 am #

        They’re also fortunate that _their_ parents had them vaccinated against these diseases. I have my suspicion that many/most anti-vaxxers had the privileged of being vaccinated during their own youth…

  19. JJ
    May 12, 2015 at 8:56 pm #

    From Dr. Bob Sears today:
    “DR. BOB’S DAILY:
    NOT ONLY IS IT TIME TO LEAVE CALIFORNIA – IT’S TIME TO LEAVE THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
    Mandatory vaccines for all public school attendees with sharpers restrictions on medical exemptions – nationwide.”
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Bob-Sears/116317855073374?fref=nf

    More “threats” of leaving.

    • Bugsy
      May 12, 2015 at 9:09 pm #

      They should colonize the island in the South Pacific that Crazy Lactivist’s husband wanted to move to last year…

      • Amazed
        May 12, 2015 at 9:57 pm #

        And take CL and her potential disease-transmitting family along, huh?

      • Camille
        May 13, 2015 at 12:10 am #

        Man, that would probably paradise on that island. No fascist telling people that they had to get their shots.

        • Sarah
          May 13, 2015 at 4:15 am #

          Off you go, then.

        • mola2alex
          May 13, 2015 at 8:43 am #

          Soon to be overrun with disease making all the fools extinct.

        • Megan
          May 13, 2015 at 8:43 am #

          Yup you’d be free to get all the mosquito born infectious diseases you want. You know, since you wouldn’t have the vaccines….

      • May 13, 2015 at 1:14 am #

        Since most of the “advanced” First World countries require vaccination these days [with far less exceptions permitted than the US] it may be difficult to find somewhere sufficiently comfortable to live which allows an immigrant to skip inoculations. This is particularly true in countries with nationalized health care systems.

        • Bugsy
          May 13, 2015 at 9:19 am #

          But not in the all-natural fantasyland…

    • momofone
      May 12, 2015 at 9:09 pm #

      That brings to mind the old question “is that a threat or a promise?”

    • LibrarianSarah
      May 12, 2015 at 9:44 pm #

      Don’t let the door hit you on the way out Bob.

      • Amazed
        May 12, 2015 at 9:55 pm #

        Why? He needs someone to aim a kick at his behind. Lord knows that the AAP won’t do it, so I’d settle for the door.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa
          May 13, 2015 at 9:23 am #

          I agree. Can we start a GoFundMe campaign to raise funds to help him leave?

        • Nick Sanders
          May 13, 2015 at 11:04 am #

          Because then we have to wash the door.

    • Megan
      May 12, 2015 at 9:51 pm #

      I am glad to see there is a federal bill proposed though. As far as Dr. Bob? He, and doctors like him who willfully ignore scientific evidence make me very sad. Especially with the amount of media presence he has. He’s no better than Dr. Oz. Clearly they don’t take their hypocratic oath very seriously.

      • Megan
        May 12, 2015 at 10:21 pm #

        Oops, that was supposed to say hippocratic.

      • Camille
        May 13, 2015 at 12:15 am #

        What federal bill are you talking about? The one that would force all Americans to get a shot whenever the government says so. Did you hear about what happened in Mexico over the weekend? 75% of kids got ill with the vaccine shot. 2 died. What do you have to say about that?

          • JJ
            May 13, 2015 at 12:26 am #

            (I do think the Mexico story is tragic)

        • yugaya
          May 13, 2015 at 4:22 am #

          Same kind of hysteria happened here where I live in the next country a few years ago. Three babies were reported to have died from vaccines at the same time. The vaccination was halted and the investigation was ordered and went public with results: two babies died from conditions that had nothing to do with vaccines, and one was ruled out because the death was the consequence of previously diagnosed congenital heart condition.

          All three cases are still in VAERS though.

        • Sullivan ThePoop
          May 13, 2015 at 8:10 am #

          That was human error. There was nothing wrong with the vaccine when it was manufactured. It got contaminated by bacteria. Which is something that could be avoided by preserving it.

          • Wren
            May 13, 2015 at 8:44 am #

            You mean like putting all those unneeded terrible chemicals in it?

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 13, 2015 at 8:46 am #

            This is a very poor and hard to access area that doesn’t even have full electrical coverage. No one outside of this area had a problem. It was probably a storage problem. Thimerosal would have saved these children.

        • Megan
          May 13, 2015 at 8:46 am #

          What happened in Mexico was a tragedy but not a fsult of unsafe vaccines, rather unsafe vaccine handling. And yes, I am talking about the federal bill which I’d be very much in support of. I don’t know why this is a surprise to you since Ive been obviously pro-vax from the start.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 13, 2015 at 9:11 am #

          And what happened after this event? The Mexican government immediately suspended the suspect vaccination program and began an investigation into the cause, examining all aspects of the program including the vaccine. How is this consistent with the supposed cover up of vaccine risks?

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 13, 2015 at 9:35 am #

            Not to mention it was all over the news because vaccine injuries are extremely rare.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 14, 2015 at 9:55 am #

            True. If the problem were the vaccines per se and not the handling of the vaccines or other side issues, this problem would have occurred long ago and these vaccines would have been junked by now.

    • Sue
      May 12, 2015 at 11:32 pm #

      Dear Dr Bob and other disaffected Californians:

      PLEASE DON’T MIGRATE TO AUSTRALIA.

      • Who?
        May 13, 2015 at 1:21 am #

        Yes it’s terrible here, please don’t come. You can’t get tax breaks for your kids if you refuse to vax them. We’re constantly overrun by kangaroos (which are far meaner than they look) and venomous critters. The seasons are the wrong way around. We drove the appalling whatshername Tenpenny from our shores by appealing to the business instincts of venues which had intended to host her, and we’re proud of that.

        Dr Bob etc would hate it here and should stay away.

        • Mishimoo
          May 13, 2015 at 1:53 am #

          And the chlamydia-carrying koalas like to pee on annoying humans. (It’s not a zoonotic strain, I looked it up the other day while explaining it to someone) Plus we have frogs in toilets, snakes anywhere they can fit, and big spiders.

          • Monkey professor for a head
            May 13, 2015 at 1:54 am #

            Also the worlds only venomous mammal, and psychotic magpies. Especially the magpies

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 1:57 am #

            Are you thinking of the echidna, which is in fact a monotreme?

          • Chris Preston
            May 13, 2015 at 2:00 am #

            That would be the platypus. The echidna has no venom, just spines. The platypus and echidna belong to an order of mammals.

          • Monkey Professor For a Head
            May 13, 2015 at 2:02 am #

            The platypus – also a monotreme, but I think it’s still counts as a mammal as it lactates. The males have venomous spurs behind their hind legs. Although a quick Wikipedia search just told me that there are several species of venomous shrews.

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 2:02 am #

            The platypus! With their venomous spurs.

            Echidnas are so cute, I love them. Except when I’m napping while my husband drives and wake up as he’s swerving to avoid a spiky brown lump in the road. Luckily it was just a dead wallaby and we didn’t crash.

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 2:03 am #

            My bad!!

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 2:03 am #

            Hey, everything else is out to kill us 😛

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 2:06 am #

            Our recent english visitors said much the same thing-venomous or flatout mean was their verdict on our wildlife.

            They found the people lovely though.

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 9:19 am #

            Have you read Bryson’s “In a Sunburned Country”? Hysterical!

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 5:44 pm #

            I did, he’s very funny. We all take this stuff so much for granted it’s delightful to see others’ take on it.

            Billie Connolly used to do a pretty funny spiel on Australia’s deadly inhabitants, too.

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 2:07 am #

            They just want to be loved! Hahahaha

            I regularly have baby magpies learning to feed themselves in the front garden, and their parents sneak them around the back to steal the dog food. They’re pretty sweet if you’re nice to them.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head
            May 13, 2015 at 2:21 am #

            I’ve just heard of too many people being knocked off of their bikes by territorial magpies! I just stay out of their way. 🙂

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 2:45 am #

            We had one relocated for that exact reason. After his tree was chopped down, he decided to vent his wrath on the customers at the local car dealership and swooped everyone on their way into the office.

            I just have a soft spot for them in spite of their territorial behaviour because they sing so sweetly and eat some of the bugs in my garden. (And my youngest was born to the sound of their song – there were lots of them outside the hospital.)

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 2:47 am #

            You need to get some zip ties and put them through the holes in your helmet so the long ends stick up. The magpies strike at those.

            Butcher birds are pretty bad news too, dad has a four stitches scar on his bald pate courtesy of a territorial butcher bird.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 13, 2015 at 11:00 am #

            There’s actually a small number of venomous mammals, but platypus venom is by far the most potent.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venomous_mammal

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 9:18 am #

            Hehe, I loved the koala I held at a zoo in the Gold Coast back in 2010…I hope she didn’t have chlamydia, though!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 13, 2015 at 9:21 am #

            The koala I held tried to pick my pocket. I have a picture to prove it.

            (actually, it was really funny. I had my credit card in my shirt pocket while standing in line, and I told my wife, “I better take that out – this is probably a scam to steal stuff from my pocket.”

            Sure enough, when you look at the picture, the koala’s got his hand in my pocket. When you go back and watch the video we took, you can see that the handler put it there.)

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 10:08 am #

            Lol, that’s one crafty koala/handler!! 🙂

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 11:33 pm #

            The current hypothesis is that all of them have chlamydia and it may act as a population control method to cull the weak, as it doesn’t appear to negatively impact on their health without an external factor such as habitat loss.

          • Bugsy
            May 14, 2015 at 10:32 am #

            Wow, I had no idea.

          • Nick Sanders
            May 13, 2015 at 10:57 am #

            I looked up koalas and chlamydia because I hadn’t heard about this before. The very first article I found mentioned a vaccine in development to protect the koalas. Go vaccines!

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 13, 2015 at 10:59 am #

            Meh, I’m from Texas originally. We’ve got snakes in the toilets and big spiders. Not so many frogs, though. They tend to die of dehydration. A couple of types of poisonous toad, if that helps any.

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 11:27 pm #

            We have toads here too – cane toads are pretty common and one of my dogs is addicted to the damn things.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 14, 2015 at 9:54 am #

            At least the cane toads aren’t addicted to eating your dogs. You can never be sure with Australia.

          • DelphiniumFalcon
            May 13, 2015 at 4:07 pm #

            I love the first comment on this koala fight video: I like how you can hear the exact moment Satan forces himself into the soul of that koala.

            https://youtu.be/x8oLu7znwQ0

          • Mishimoo
            May 13, 2015 at 11:26 pm #

            Oh, that is beautiful!! I just scared the dog by laughing at it.

          • Somewhereinthemiddle
            May 14, 2015 at 10:17 am #

            Oy, I can barely handle the massive roaches where I live. I readily admit that places like Australia would chew me up and spit me out. City girl through and through here. Real nature is icky. 😉

        • Chris Preston
          May 13, 2015 at 1:54 am #

          And the sale of raw milk is banned.

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 1:55 am #

            Is it in Victoria they also add a bittering agent so it is actually undrinkable, after a couple of children were poisoned to death by it?

          • Chris Preston
            May 13, 2015 at 1:58 am #

            It is actually an emetic they have added. That is added to Raw Bath Milk that is sold as a cosmetic, to stop people getting around the law by selling raw milk for consumption as a cosmetic.

            It seems to be working Victorian raw milk producers say they have lost half of their business over night due to stronger action to ban consumption

          • Who?
            May 13, 2015 at 2:05 am #

            Woot. Love to see a simple and cheap solution-makes sense it would be an emetic in case anyone is made enough to make a kid consume it anyway.

            Adults can eat and drink what they want, of course.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 13, 2015 at 9:18 am #

            Victorian raw milk producers say they have lost half of their business over night due to stronger action to ban consumption

            And it’s not like they can complain, either, because they have been selling their milk as a (wink,wink) cosmetic. But now that people can’t drink it, they lose business because they can only sell it for cosmetic purposes, which is what they claimed they have been doing all along.

          • Sullivan ThePoop
            May 13, 2015 at 8:08 am #

            As it should be. The risk from raw milk is exponentially higher than any risk from vaccination.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 13, 2015 at 9:49 am #

          Even the plants are out to kill you.

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 10:29 am #

            But they’re all-natural, so they won’t really kill you…they’ll just provide you with natural immunity against measles instead.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 13, 2015 at 10:32 am #

            In Australia? Nature in Australia will eat you and poop you out to fertilize more killer plants. Which will then be eaten by drop bears.

            Actually, my mother used to live in Australia. Perth, to be exact. I went out there once and thought it was beautiful. She loved it to except for the bit about the Pacific Ocean being between her and the rest of the family.

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 10:44 am #

            I didn’t get out to Perth during my visit to Australia a few years back, but it looks beautiful (if not a bit isolated from the other major cities).

            For what it’s worth, I completely recognize that Australia is full of venomous creatures & plants. My post above was more in jest; I can sadly picture an anti-vaxxer coming up with something like that.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 13, 2015 at 10:49 am #

            Yeah, I understood that. I’m just playing with Australia’s image as a completely hostile environment.

          • KarenJJ
            May 13, 2015 at 11:18 am #

            There’s quite a bit or distance between Perth and the rest of the world 🙂

      • Bugsy
        May 13, 2015 at 10:22 am #

        PLEASE DON’T COME TO CANADA, EITHER!! You know, socialism = fascism and all of that fun stuff.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym
          May 13, 2015 at 10:28 am #

          Can I come there instead? I’ve always liked Canada. Though I’m not sure about this Harper guy…

          • Bugsy
            May 13, 2015 at 10:29 am #

            Please do, yes! We’re rather enjoying it up here, but I agree w/ you that Harper doesn’t sit well with us.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 13, 2015 at 10:35 am #

            I think Australia’s head of state right now is a bit of a creep too, especially about immigrants. Oh, well, being from the US, I can’t make too many statements about other countries having right wing nuts in charge without getting sarcastic replies.

          • KarenJJ
            May 13, 2015 at 11:24 am #

            Australian’s can’t manage sarcasm these days… Sadly baffled, seems to be all I can muster..

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/27/its-over-its-now-impossible-to-satirise-tony-abbott

    • Camille
      May 13, 2015 at 12:11 am #

      I am with you Dr. Sears! But, for those who want to stay in California I think tax resistance might be an option. If we don’t get to go to public schools, why pay for them.

      • JJ
        May 13, 2015 at 12:14 am #

        That’s not how it works. I paid for public schools even when I homeschooled my children. People without children also pay for public schools.

        • Camille
          May 13, 2015 at 12:15 am #

          Maybe that should change.

          • JJ
            May 13, 2015 at 12:17 am #

            Do you have any sense of responsibility to your community and the children in it?!

          • Camille
            May 13, 2015 at 12:18 am #

            Yes, that is why I am saying NO to SB 277 and SB 792. I don’t want to be responsible for more sick and autistic kids!

          • JJ
            May 13, 2015 at 12:19 am #

            You don’t want to help protect all children from disease or help ensure an education for all children.

          • Sarah
            May 13, 2015 at 4:13 am #

            If you don’t want to be responsible for more sick kids, VACCINATE.

          • Camille
            May 13, 2015 at 12:33 pm #

            Actually, all the sick kids I am talking were fine until they were vaccinated.

          • Sarah
            May 13, 2015 at 1:54 pm #

            Of course they were. However, the possibility of becoming ill after a vaccine, ie due to vaccine complications, is considerably lower than the possibility of becoming ill due to a vaccine preventable disease, except of course in that small minority of cases where a child has immune issues that make vaccination inadvisable. As such, if you want there to be fewer sick kids, YOU VACCINATE.

          • Camille
            May 13, 2015 at 5:52 pm #

            Tell that to the kids that died in Mexico over the weekend from mandatory shots.

          • Sarah
            May 14, 2015 at 9:38 am #

            I will when you tell it to all the unvaccinated kids who die from vaccine preventable diseases. You’ll be there a while longer than I will.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym
            May 14, 2015 at 9:52 am #

            Again, what happened in Mexico after the kids got sick: The vaccination program was immediately suspended and an investigation into the reasons that the children got sick was undertaken. No coverup, no attempt to force children to take vaccines that made them sick, no denial. Just a halt of the suspect program and investigation.

          • Daleth
            May 14, 2015 at 9:59 am #

            How do contaminated third-world drugs relate to the question of whether vaccines in the US and Europe are safe?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa
            May 13, 2015 at 9:16 am #

            My, you are a seriously selfish asshole.

          • Megan
            May 13, 2015 at 9:19 am #

            I’m sure her tune will change if she’s ever in a circumstance to require government assistance like food stamps or once she becomes of age for Medicare and social security. You know, it’s all about what others can do for her, never the other way around because, you know, “MY RIIIGHTS!”

          • Daleth
            May 13, 2015 at 11:05 am #

            Much as Ayn Rand gladly accepted her own social security checks…

          • Camille
            May 13, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

            I try to be as self- sufficient as possible Magen. But, I don’t get a paycheck from Big Pharma either, so things are tight. Which is why I can’t stay on here all day like you professionals. I know you have your BMWs to service and your white picket fences to paint.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 13, 2015 at 12:46 pm #

            How do we know you aren’t getting paid to comment by anti-vax organizations? Can you PROVE that you aren’t getting paid?

          • yugaya
            May 13, 2015 at 12:46 pm #

            From your mouth into Big Pharma’s ears, Camille as far as I’m concerned. I wouldn’t mind getting paid for speaking my mind in response to ignorant people like yourself on any subject.

          • Megan
            May 13, 2015 at 1:53 pm #

            Even if you try to be self sufficient there’s no way to predict if a medical emergency will befall you and you become disabled. Then I’m willing to bet you would apply for government services to help you when you can’t work (which would be in your rights as a tax payer). All I’m saying is that we all pay taxes so that government services are available for all because at one time or another, we will all need them, whether it be unemployment because we get laid off or Medicare and social security when we retire. Our children benefit from tax payer dollars in the form of a safe public education and this benefits society by creating well educated adult tax payers so that the older generation can have Medicare and social security. If we all retreat into the attitude of “I only pay what’s mine” it costs individuals more in the long run and our societal structure falls apart. We all benefit from educated, healthy citizens.

            Oh and by the way, I drive a Honda civic if you must know. Something about students loans and family docs being a low paying specialty… I wish I could be paid to post comments against your ignorance.

          • MaineJen
            May 14, 2015 at 4:55 pm #

            …wait. We’re supposed to have BMWs?

            Seriously. Who took my BMW?

          • Nick Sanders
            May 13, 2015 at 10:52 am #

            You’re not really up on the whole concept of a “public good”, are you?

      • Sullivan ThePoop
        May 13, 2015 at 8:07 am #

        A good public school system does more for people living in the district than just providing a good education. If you do not pay school taxes you should not be able to reap those benefits at all.

      • MaineJen
        May 13, 2015 at 10:29 am #

        Well, as long as you are not benefiting IN ANY WAY from public schools. Like, say, going to see a doctor who was publicly educated. Or a lawyer. Or an auto mechanic. Or that farmer who grows your food. As long as no one you ever associate with, who supports you and your family and makes your lives livable on a daily basis, had anything to do with public education at any time in their lives…then yeah, you get a pass on paying for public schools just like everyone else.

        • Bugsy
          May 13, 2015 at 10:33 am #

          Well, in all fairness, if she’s seeing a naturopath in lieu of a real doctor, she may not be benefiting from public schools…or from much of any education, for that matter…

          • Megan
            May 13, 2015 at 10:57 am #

            She certainly doesn’t sound as if she’s benefitted from an education.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym
        May 13, 2015 at 10:30 am #

        My kid doesn’t go to public schools, but I happily pay my taxes because I want the public schools to be as good as possible and to provide opportunities for a good education to everyone. And a safe education, without being exposed to disease unnecssarily. That means not just vaccinating but parents keeping their sick kids at home.

        • Camille
          May 13, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

          If you’re going to ask for us pay for public schools, than the state should pay for those who want to home school. That is only fair.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD
            May 13, 2015 at 12:47 pm #

            No it’s not fair. Just because you don’t use a specific road doesn’t mean that you don’t have to pay for it. Similarly, just because you CHOOSE not to use the public school doesn’t mean that you don’t have to pay for them.

          • JJ
            May 13, 2015 at 1:50 pm #

            In CA you can get funding for homeschooling if you enroll in a public charter school. You can get about $1,200 per school year in approved supplies/activities and do once a month teacher check-ins where you go over your child’s work.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym