If anti-vaxxers are allowed to avoid vaccines, shouldn’t the rest of us be allowed to avoid anti-vaxxers?

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California anti-vax parents are having a tough week. Senate Bill 277 went into effect on July 1, barring unvaccinated children from public schools unless they have a medical exemption. Personal belief exemptions will no longer be allowed.

According to The Sacramento Bee, Scores of students without vaccine proof sent home on first day of school:

Surely, if liberty is good for thee, it is equally good for me.

In the Folsom Cordova Unified School District, 145 students out of about 3,200 starting kindergarten and seventh grade were sent home Tuesday on the first day of school for lack of immunization records …

A new state law that took effect July 1 eliminated personal- and religious-belief exemptions for families that opted to avoid vaccinations for their children. Under the new law, students entering the two checkpoint years of kindergarten and seventh grade are now required to show proof of vaccination…

Anti-vaxxers are appalled. It’s an issue of freedom! According to the Foundation for Economic Freedom, Mandatory Vaccinations Are Incompatible with Liberty.

Mandatory vaccinations involve a supreme violation of liberty, where agents of the state inject substances into someone’s body against his or her will. On the other side of the ledger, even in principle, mandatory vaccinations do not offer much benefit in enhanced public welfare, relative to a free society. When we throw in the realistic worries of government incompetence and malfeasance, the case against mandatory vaccinations is overwhelming.

And according to No on SB277, which opposed passage of the bill:

SB 277 eliminates a parent’s right to exempt their children from one, some, or all vaccines, a risk-laden medical procedure including death. In 2016, California parents will be forced to give their children more than 40 doses of 10 federally recommended vaccines. This open-ended vaccine mandate allows the State of California to add any additional vaccines they deem necessary at anytime. The only exemption available is a medical exemption that doctors deny to 99.99 percent of children under federal guidelines.

During their campaign opposing passage of the bill, they articulated a fundamental principle:

Where there is a risk of injury or death, no matter how small the perceived risk may be, there must be a choice.

I, too, am big believer in liberty. So anti-vaxxers, help me out. There’s something I don’t understand.

If you believe that you should be able to avoid vaccinating your children because you consider vaccines dangerous, shouldn’t everyone else in California be able avoid your unvaccinated children because they consider them dangerous?

Children who haven’t been vaccinated pose a risk because they can carry and spread vaccine preventable diseases.

How big a risk? That doesn’t matter, right? If it doesn’t matter how small the perceived risk of vaccines must be in order for you to refuse then, it shouldn’t matter how small the risk your unvaccinated children pose to their classmates, right. You insist there must be a choice.

The beauty of SB277 is that it allows you to exercise your right to protect your children from vaccines no matter how small the perceived risk may be and it allows the rest of us to exercise our right to ban your children from schools no matter how small the perceived risk may be.

Wait, what? You disagree??

Families that do not comply with the one-size-fits-all vaccine mandate, will lose their State Constitutional right for a free and appropriate education in public and private K-12 schools. The use of licensed daycare facilities, in-home daycare, public or private preschools and even after school care programs are also included in SB 277.

Duh! That’s the whole point of SB277. Since education is compulsory, without SB277 parents are forced to expose their children to the health threat of your unvaccinated children.

Any attempt by anti-vaxxers to force our children to be exposed to unvaccinated children is a violation of our liberty, right?

And surely, if liberty is good for thee, it is equally good for me.

  • Laura J

    Every parent should have a choice whether to vax their child or not. Just because someone has decided against a certain vax, it’s their wish.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      They do have a choice; and the rest of us have the choice to ban unvaccinated children from schools, daycare, etc.

      • Laura J

        I’m not pro or anti. Just the way I see it. It’s never going to change because people value their freedom.

        • Irène Delse

          What about valuing the health of their children? They’re not a simple extension of the parents, but human beings with needs of their own.

          • Roadstergal

            What matters is mum’s freedom to feel smug. Kid’s freedom to avoid suffering preventable disease – meh.

          • Laura J

            Here in GA it is not so steep. Kids must be vaccinated to go to public schools, but there are exemptions…such as if a child is going to be 5, and in a month lacking the prevnar, it is not needed because that child has the immunity against it. Just an example. People do homeschool their kids, and some are anti vax too. We haven’t had big outbreaks here.

          • Laura J

            Actually they do value….except the ones who lock their kids in a hot car.

        • Roadstergal

          Totally with you. I’m not pro or anti sober driving – I just respect people who value their freedom to drive drunk.

          • Laura J

            Exactly. I choose not to drink…:) Same with choosing to smoke or eat poorly, too.

          • Nick Sanders

            The smug is strong with this one.

          • Roadstergal

            So, to her, driving drunk and opposing vaccines are simple exercises of personal freedom that should be respected. My Libertarian-sense is tingling.

          • Laura J

            I’m actually trying to figure out this phenomena why such controversy and the insults and the such. My kids are vaxed by the way.

          • Nick Sanders

            And yet you crow about not “choosing to eat poorly”. Regardless of what you are trying to do, you come off as someone here to rub in how much better you are than we poor little bad choice makers.

          • Laura J

            Not really. Truly you are mistaken.

          • The situation was drunk *driving* vs sober *driving*.

          • *stealing*

        • Nick Sanders

          Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins, as they say.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          And they have that freedom. However, society has the right to say if you do that, your kids cannot attend public school.

          Homeschooling the kids and no one says anything. However, when you hope to benefit from the things our society has to offer, you need to participate.

          With the benefit of public education comes responsibility to the public. You choowe to opt out, and that’s your right. But you are opting out, which means fully out

          It’s as fair as it can be

        • Box of Salt

          Laura J “people value their freedom”

          I value the freedom to send my children to public schools where there is low chance they will contract preventable disease.

          • Laura J

            “How can you work on a day like this?” Ferris Bueller.

    • Roadstergal

      Every parent should have a choice whether to buckle their child up or not. Just because someone has decided against a restraint system, it’s their wish.

      • Laura J

        It’s a law here. People still choose not to even though they should. Same with vaxes.

        • Nick Sanders

          Are you unfamiliar with the concept of an “analogy”?

    • Irène Delse

      The right of the parent, the choice of the parent… Let’s not forget, parents do choose, but here they don’t choose for themselves, they have do decide in the best interests of the child.

      Let’s pause a moment to consider that.

    • Amazed

      Of course. That’s why you’ll hardly find a voice here advocating for mandatory vaccinations. Right isn’t the issue here.

      But then, every parent should shoulder the burden of the consequences of the decision not to vax their child. That’s what ant-vaxxers have a problem with. They want to utilize their rights to the max and avoid the consequences for doing this to the max. That’s the issue.

      • Laura J

        I find it interesting is all. Consequences to any choices we make. I think that is for the most of life anyways.

        • Amazed

          Yet you didn’t mention consequences at all. You only sympathize with anti-vaxxers’ wish not to vaccinate. You seem to regard them as some kind of victims because not everyone thinks they should be given a free pass as far as consequences are concerned.

          Like most of those who rush to defend them, you conflate the disapproval of certain actions and the wish to make people face the consequences for them with the desire to deprive people of the right to make them. Which no one here ever did. Anti-vaxxers are still allowed to go on as they wish. They simply won’t be treated as if they should escape consequences.

          • Laura J

            not siding with either.

          • Amazed

            Then perhaps you should try to discuss the real issues instead of the imaginary, “But they have the right!”?

          • Laura J

            There will always be a collision between science and personal beliefs. Science cannot answer all questions.

          • Nick Sanders

            But it can answer the scientific ones. Like what medical treatments are safe.

          • Amazed

            There are certain questions that it can answer, those. What you’re saying is that because anti-vaxxers don’t like the answers, they should be allowed to move the goalposts, making sure that there is always a new question and meanwhile placing the entire herd at risk without facing any repercussions because rights.

          • Laura J

            An advocate of science should be careful to explain how science gives us a method to test only a part of our beliefs (that part we can subject to reproducible observation). Science cannot completely replace our personal beliefs, but it can demonstrate what part of our beliefs we can subject to a test, and use the results of tests to reach a consensus, even among those with different personal beliefs.

          • Amazed

            Once again, how do you imagine this consensus can be reached when anti-vaxxers howl, “It’s my right not to vaccinate and it’s infringment on my rights to keep my unvaxxed child from public schools, and you’re meanie for telling me that I’m freeloading?” All I’ve seen of you this far is meaningless words, bragging of your own healthy choices (guess what? I don’t smoke, I rarely drink and I don’t eat poorly either but I don’t feel the need to point it out as a great choice. It’s just how I live. It isn’t some great sacrifice.) and of course, your opening post defending anti-vaxxers’ right to refuse vaccines when no one ever said they should be forced into vaccinating.

            I really can’t understand the purpose of your posts. If I was to go by their content, I’d say you were trying to derail the thread but they aren’t this numerous. What is your position, as a parent of vaccinated children, about unvaxxed (by choice) kids being allowed to attend public schools? We’ve already established that the rights aren’t the problem.

            Without drifting off in general musings, if you please. Do you have a problem with unvaxxed by choice kids being forbidden to attend public schools or not?

          • Laura J

            We cannot force people to think our way merely with the power of our words and definitely not if also seeming to be wielding a delusional sense of having authority over what people should believe. The best we can do is explain why WE think the way we do. Lay it out for them gently and very, very patiently so that they can make up their own minds.

            Never smoked and our family doesn’t drink. Vaccinated kids or not it doesn’t really bother me. Our kids are though. Hope I don’t get the flu before I get the shot…lol! I think I did 3 weeks ago.

          • Nick Sanders

            The law is not concerned with what you believe, only with what you do.

          • Amazed

            So you’re for them not having to meet any consequences. Good to have this one cleared.

          • Laura J

            Priorities, priorities. Baby & family come first. Happy commenting.

          • Amazed

            Why, thanks. Happy dogding the issue and using your baby-free time for whiteknighting for leeches.You know, between worrying your pretty head about what healthy, conscientious choice of great eating you should make today since it seems to be very trying on you.

          • Laura J

            Not really Get lost in a maze and find something useful to do. Go take your Latuda, you missed a dose.

          • Irène Delse

            That’s rich, coming from someone who passive-aggressively trolls discussions here. Your posts are all posture, no substance.

          • Amazed

            But they make her look good in her own mind. Just like her non-drinking habit. Cause you know, Laura is one of the few chosen ones who don’t succumb to this vile habit.

          • Laura J

            For Irene;
            sub·stance
            NOUN
            a particular kind of matter with uniform properties:
            the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence:
            proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body”

            off target honey, poor vocab context

          • Heidi

            It’s pretty rich, too, you accuse someone being poor at context when clearly, you couldn’t figure out which meaning of “substance” Irene was referring to based on context.

          • Laura J
          • Laura J
          • swbarnes2

            I wonder if you would be okay with gentle persuasion if your 1 month old was coughing so hard they turned blue and threw up for THREE MONTHS, because someone like Heather Dexter deliberately brought her sick kids around yours.

            Other people get literally sick at the idea, but your need to put personal vanity on a pedestal is more important than the life of your child, right?

          • Amazed

            She’s probably be just OK. As she said, all she cares about is being gentle and patient with the DANGEROUS loons.

            I’d like to ask her if she’s be fine with a little disease vector sitting in the same class as a classmate of mine who died of a heart disease before we turned ten. I don’t actually know if he was medically exempted but I know my mom would have never forgiven herself if I gave him something that he’d have had harder time with than most children. And she sure as hell wouldn’t have said, “oh vaxxed or not, doesn’t really bother me”.

            But I won’t ask Laura. I’m afraid that she’s actually reply. And as far as I can remember, his mother wasn’t making as great lifechoices as Laura does. She was a little obese. Sure, they sold their house to assure that he’d get the best treatment abroad but I guess she chose to eat poorly. For some reason, Laura decided that this part of her bragging was very important in a vaccine debate.

          • Laura J

            I wish I had time tonight, too much going on at the house and this week. Baby goes to ENT tomorrow and getting shots on Thursday.

          • Of course it can’t. We look to the law to do such things.

        • Sonja Henie

          Snort! “Is all” is never “all” with anti-vaxers!

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    I love this!

    • sabelmouse

      you can trust them when they admit something that’s not in pharma’s interest. who reads inserts anyways? doctors?!?

      • demodocus

        apparently, many anti-vaxxers tell people to read the inserts as “proof” that vaccines are harmful.
        There are nerds everywhere, and some read such things out of pure curiosity.

        • sabelmouse

          luckily. meanwhile check out the definition of anti, none, and a. as in asocial as opposed to anti social. most get that wrong.
          ditto regarding
          vaccines and vaccination.

          • Wren

            Huh?

          • sabelmouse

            do you know the difference between asocial and anti social?
            same applies to this issue.
            can’t make it plainer than that.

          • Charybdis

            Do you know the difference between “come here” and “sic’em”? Or maybe the difference between your ass and your elbow?

          • Wren

            I understand the difference between the prefix anti- and the prefix a-. That does not help me to understand your previous post or your stance.

            Are you claiming to be an a-vaxer rather than an anti-vaxer? If so, how are you defining those terms? Again, I understand the meaning of the prefixes, so you might need an entire sentence or two to answer this one.

          • sabelmouse

            brava/o!
            i define terms as they are defined.

          • Charybdis

            Unambiguous, obtuse troll is unambiguously obtuse.

          • sabelmouse

            you don’t have to explain yourself. it’s obvious.

          • Wren

            That is generally the goal of communication…making one’s meaning obvious. You seem to be reaching for some other goal.

          • corblimeybot

            If multiple people can’t understand a word you are saying, the problem is you. You’re the bad communicator.

          • sabelmouse

            a and anti are defined and can be found in a dictionary.

          • Yes. We’re aware.

            What we’re waiting for is evidence that sabelmouse is an avaccinator (as in “personally is without vaccines””) as opposed to sabelmouse being an antivaccinator (as in “spreads nonsense about vaccines”)

            Let’s start with a simple question:

            “Sabelmouse, is there mercury in vaccines?”

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ed214a578907859bf503b29df9717e6c7df26291bd993bfa0b0d5a3387d8175e.jpg

          • Wren

            “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
            “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
            “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – – that’s all.”
            (Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)

          • Nick Sanders

            Except you are quite clearly against vaccinations in their entirety, not simply personally abstaining from them.

          • sabelmouse

            and you surmise this how?

          • Nick Sanders

            Le’s see, lying about vaccines, from making up side effects to misrepresenting their effectiveness, and upvoting those who do the same.

          • sabelmouse

            i really do need some laughs today, thanks.

          • You lie about chemistry … or the other alternative is that you have an 8th grade understanding of chemistry and thinks it’s sufficient to overturn the decades-long medical and scientific consensus. It’s not.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9391344a71c9f8b790bc84869a0e646f18f2d2aed272b2516642463851233e63.jpg

          • sabelmouse

            more laughs,thanks.

          • That’s the point of edutainment.

          • Nick Sanders

            Still holding to your obvious lie that you are not anti-vaccine?

          • You might have a point if you just told people that “I don’t take vaccines.”

            I’m afluvaccine, for example. Because I’m a lazy sod.

            What I don’t do is go around ignoring basic chemistry to make people fear it – that would make me anti-flu-vaccine.

          • sabelmouse

            and what might your actual point be?

          • That you don’t have one.

          • sabelmouse

            are we doing kafka?

          • Only if Franz consents to being done.

          • Roadstergal

            Vocally and enthusiastically. (Sorry, late to the party, but couldn’t pass that one up.)

  • Roadstergal

    I guess Thomas Johnson felt his statements weren’t worth standing by.

    • Maud Pie

      When I first glanced at his posts my mind misread his name as Thomas Jefferson. (My mind does that a lot, often with hilarious results.). Which made me want to form a response based on the first cabinet rap battle from Hamilton. Damn, that would have been awesome!

      • Roadstergal

        His first and last names are slang terms for a penis. My sense of humor is stuck in kindergarten.

  • Thomas Johnson

    “Children who haven’t been vaccinated pose a risk because they can carry and spread vaccine preventable diseases.”
    So can vaccinated children, there are some in every outbreak. Are you really an MD??

    • Box of Salt

      Gee, and if we compare the vaccinated children to the unvaccinated children during an outbreak, the ones in which group are more likely to come down with the illness (and therefore infect others)?

      The group which as you say includes “some,” or the group which includes many?

      • Thomas Johnson

        Implicit in the author’s statement is that vaccinated people will not get sick and infect others. This is totally irresponsible and misleading.

        • Box of Salt

          What’s irresponsible and misleading is ignoring the fact that in most vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks, the unvaccinated are the majority of the sick.

          Vaccine failure is relatively rare. The problem lies in failing to use the vaccine.

          Don’t blame us (the vaccine protected) for the problems and outbreaks you cause.

          • Thomas Johnson

            I’m not blaming you for anything, I’m saying the doctor is either seriously misinformed or incompetent, probably both.

          • momofone

            You make sweeping statements, but have offered no sources to support them.

          • Box of Salt

            So Thomas Johnson “I’m saying the doctor is either seriously misinformed or incompetent” – do you define “misinformed or incompetent” as “does not agree with me, Thomas Johnson”?

          • Charybdis

            And you are qualified to judge this how, exactly?

        • Nick Sanders

          Statistically speaking, they are far, far less likely to.

          • Thomas Johnson

            So vaccines partially work, but they also partially damage people, so where do we go from here?

          • corblimeybot

            Back under your rock? That’s a good place to go.

          • Nick Sanders

            What basis do you have for your claim that they damage people?

          • Charybdis

            Damage? How so?

            *is agog*

          • Thomas Johnson

            You never heard of vaccine injuries?

          • Charybdis

            Yes, I have, but TRUE vaccine injuries are relatively rare. Crap people like to blame on vaccines is what runs rampant.

          • Have you never heard of natural immunity injuries?

          • Well…normally, we start with risk/risk analysis – how much damage does the disease do? Then we compare them and see which is safer.

            Then we set up compensation funds to ensure that people who do the right thing or have ill fortune aren’t financially ruined by doing the right thing or just plain bad luck.

          • Sonja Henie

            Who’s talking about “partially ‘damaging’ people”, other than the AVers?

        • Box of Salt

          No. You’re reading into her statement in order to argue a point that wasn’t made. Some people would describe that as a strawman.

          Whether or not other children for whom getting a vaccine did not in fact provide protection exist, the fact remains that those who were never vaccinated are likely to contract and spread disease — and that increases the risks for everyone.

        • Sonja Henie

          I agree with Box that you’re reading into the statement. However, vaccinated kids do have a much lower chance of getting sick and infecting others.

          • Ron Roy

            Bull.

          • demodocus

            They get the common cold as often as unvaccinated, but they don’t catch measles, mumps, or rubella at nearly the same rate.

    • Both sober drivers and drunk drivers can have accidents. You won’t mind if I drive drunk, right?

      • Roadstergal

        I’m sure Thomas does not wear seatbelts in cars, because belted people die, too.

        He also does not use carseats, because infants die in carseats. Some have injuries in crashes that are specifically caused by the carseat.

        • Speeds too? People driving at the speed limit can have accidents.

          • Roadstergal

            I’m sure he’s happy if his food servers don’t wash their hands after they poop, because proper hand-washing does not fully eliminate disease, only reduces it.

          • And he doesn’t mind if I drive drunk and over the speed limit whilst texting since even the driver who does everything right can have an accident.

            I am sure he doesn’t mind if little kids run out in front of the road in front of him either since even sensible little kids can be run over.

            Nor does he mind if bigger kids listen to music whilst crossing the road since even kids paying attention can be run over.

            Nor does it matter whether daycare pays attention to his kids near water since kids can drown even when supervised.

            Nor would it matter if I fed his child at all if I was babysitting for him for a month or so since even fed kids can die.

        • shay simmons

          He also refuses to use any kind of birth control, because contraceptives are not 100% effective.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Or use an umbrella, because you can still get wet.

  • Nick Sanders

    @sabelmouse We can all see you lurking. Is there no claim so stupid, no lie so baldfaced, that you won’t upvote it if it conforms to your bullshit biases?

    • sabelmouse

      oh sweet! no idea what you’re talking about by i looove the attention.
      why lurking? aren’t these threads meant to be read?

      • Sonja Henie

        We know you’re an attention wh*re!

      • Nick Sanders

        Well, seeing as how you are now upvoting not just Dee’s lies, but Slammo’s aggressive aggrandizement of belligerent ignorance, I’m guessing the answer to my question is “no”.

        • sabelmouse

          lol! checking who upvotes whom and then running after them and commenting on it ?!?

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t take kindly to people cheering on liars. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

          • sabelmouse

            well, i don’t. have you noticed me upvoting any shills?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes.

          • Mike Stevens

            You have been notorious for upvoting fellow antivax shills, Sabel.
            Not just the ones here, but your track record on the past shows it.

          • sabelmouse

            wow mikey, what happened? you’ve forgotten the definition of the word shill? to uncomfortable?

          • Mike Stevens

            You get paid by AOA to post antivax comments we gather. That’s shilling.

          • sabelmouse

            oh mickey!

          • Mike Stevens

            That’s what all the girls say.

          • Not THE definition, no.

            I am not entirely clear on YOUR definition, however.

  • cookiebaker

    Just last week I took all 6 kids to my son’s freshman orientation at the high school. One of the teachers stopped me and was chatting. She’d raised 5 kids, so seeing a big family perked her interest. Somehow we got on the subject of vaccines and she said she didn’t think it was necessary because the dirt from a household with 5 kids boosted their immunity. I was shocked that this woman was a high school teacher in a public school and didn’t vaccinate!! I told her that I had 6 kids, a messy house*, 2 dogs, a cat, a bunch of chickens AND the kids were all fully vaccinated, including the flu shot. I said believed in giving them EVERY tool at my disposal to build their immunity.
    *my house is not that messy. Yes, I could do more, but I can’t relax in a dirty house.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      A dirty house is not going to boost your immunity to the measles virus.

      God, when I type it that way, it pretty much is obvious that it goes without saying.

      • Roadstergal

        I’m trying to connect A to B, and they’re just on such different planes of relevance that I can’t even come up with a halfway legitimate-sounding rationale.

    • Irène Delse

      I bet she’s heard about the hygiene hypothesis of allergies and is confusing it with “boosting your immune system”. Because obviously, of something is good for one aspect of the immune system, it’s good for everything in the immune system… Sigh.

      Although, kids living together do tend to catch each others’ illnesses and pretty soon all of them become immune to what one of them got. But they still need to catch it before they can even start to mount an immunity. It’s OK if we’re talking about colds and other benign, self-limited diseases. With measles or pertussis, mumps or varicella, with the potential for death or life-long sequelae, she’s taking a really big gamble with the health of her kids. And mostly riding on the coattails of the families who vaccinate.

      • Sonja Henie

        My neighbor is the youngest of 6 kids. She was the only one of her sibs not to get chickenpox as a kid. She got it from her son, who got it from a guest at his 2 year birthday party. By then she had two kids to take care of.

    • swbarnes2

      Right…this is why childhood illnesses throughout history have left the poor untouched, because their dirty houses were protecting them…

    • Heidi

      My mom and dad both came from families with 5 kids each. My paternal grandmother wasn’t know for her house cleaning to say the least! Both my mom and dad got mumps and measles because there was no vaccine yet. I’m pretty sure my grandparents who lived on farms and came from families of 12 and 13 got it, too.

    • demodocus

      i’m praying she’s not in science or social studies…

      • cookiebaker

        Me, too! I should’ve asked what subject she taught, but I was just so floored by her views on vaccines (and I was trying to keep my toddlers from tearing down the posters in the hall), that I just didn’t ask. Neither of my high school kids have her this year and I hope it stays that way!

        Our state doesn’t allow personal vaccine exemptions and the biggest and best pediatric practice in town won’t see anti-vaccine families, so it’s rare to run into an anti-vacc advocate in a mainstream setting.

    • guest

      CPS needs to be on her now! Seriously I know that going overboard with being clean isn’t good and all, but this is down right nasty and unhygienic

      • cookiebaker

        She was in her late 50’s-early 60’s. I think she said her youngest child was 27, so they’re all grown and gone at this point.

      • guest

        Also, aside from the fact that her kids are grown, Cookiebaker didn’t say THAT woman had chickens, etc. running around the house that she never cleaned up after. The woman simply said that she thought the regular household dirt in a home with five kids boosted their immune system. She didn’t say she never cleaned, or that the house was filled with trash. She was stupid about vaccines, but christ, DON’T call CPS just because someone says their house has household germs in it.

    • Ardea

      I teach with someone in the math department who did not vaccinate his children, and there are other staff members in our district who did not, either. (It came up in my Anatomy and Physiology class two years ago.) These individuals were all babies at the time of the fraudulent Wakefield paper. I just kind of sighed and said, “Well, when you’re 18, you can make your own decisions.” (As in, make up for your parents’ neglect.) I am in Oregon, very lax on laws.

    • What happened to sanitation eliminating these illnesses?

      • Sonja Henie

        Whatever fits!

  • Dr Kitty

    PSA

    If you have kids who are going to college, or planning to take a year and go travelling, or who are going to any big music festivals, or sports events or conventions, make sure they get any boosters for meningitis and MMR they might need.

    Public Health England is having a bit of a nightmare because several people with measles went to Glastonbury and various other festivals this year. At east some of them KNEW they had measles and KNEW they were infectious, and went anyway.

    Glastonbury is festival with about 500,000 people in a small area, with minimal hygiene facilites, and it tends to be popular with the alternative/hippy crowd who are less keen on vaccination. It is basically worst case scenario for VPD.

    • MI Dawn

      Oh good lord!

      Hmmmm…I’m going to a big music festival next summer. I’ll look into meningitis before going. Thanks, Dr Kitty, for the PSA.

      • Sonja Henie

        According to all I’ve read, you should look into your measles immunity, too.

    • guest

      I didn’t even know we had a meningitis vaccine! (I mean, I just get all the vaccines offered to me, so sometimes I don’t remember what they were actually *for.* )But I did know that college students living in dorms are a high-risk group.

      • Dr Kitty

        The U.K. Is currently offering everyone starting university in September a meningitis ACWY vaccination for the second year running as there has been a sharp increase in the previously rare strains.

        It’s also a highly recommended vaccine for anyone going on hajj.

        Meningitis C and B are in the UK routine childhood vaccination programme ( B was added last year).

        Meningitis vaccinations are very hard for anti-vaxxers to argue against, there is no “natural immunity” or “mild illness” here. These are diseases which maim and kill even the healthiest kids, often too quickly to be stopped by everything modern medicine can throw at them.

        • Megan

          As far as travel is concerned, for those in the US the CDC offers country-specific recommendations for immunizations needed and suggested for travel. (It also includes whether or not malaria prophylaxis is required).

          • Dr Kitty

            The UK has http://www.fitfortravel.nhs.uk, which is an excellent site.

            Country and disease specific advice, general advice about avoiding illness and travelling, and up to date info on things like Zika. I think it is a bit easier to navigate than the CDC page, but that’s a personal opinion.

        • Nick Sanders

          Yeah, when a member of a sports team dies two weeks after having been doing fine during a game, it’s really hard to pass them off as “weak”.

        • critter8875

          Healthy young college man died in the dorms in 1970. His roommate survived only because the other guys physically carried him to the hospital.

          • sdsures

            Holy sh…..

          • EmbraceYourInnerCrone

            My little brother got it when he was 9. Thank fully my mother noticed something was “off” very early on and took him straight to the ER. He was just complaining of a bad headache but when he sat up she said she notice something strange about how he held his head and neck really stiffly. He survived but it damaged his brain in such a way that his short term memory is almost non-existent.

        • corblimeybot

          Had a college acquaintance who got meningitis. Can’t recall which kind. I just remember she was told there was a vaccine for it.

          My doctor had insisted I get the vaccine before I left for college, thank God. It was not required at our university at the time, because my acquaintance was not vaccinated. She wasn’t anti-vaccine, she was just a 19-year-old girl who didn’t know she should get the shot.

          She was incredibly, incredibly sick. Fortunately, she survived without major repercussions. It could have be much worse.

        • sdsures

          Is that the same as pneumococcal vaccine? I got it when I moved from Canada to the UK.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, that is a different vaccine, (although pneumococcus is another possible cause of meningitis)
            The main causes are meningococcus, HiB (notw virtually unheard of thanx to vax) and pneumococcus. E.coli, other gram negative bugs, Staph, Strep etc can rarely cause meningitis too.

        • Sonja Henie

          ACWY is given at age 11-12 and then again at 16 in the US. B was just added as “permissive” (not recommended) last summer for older teens.

    • sdsures

      When I went to Russia, I also got Hep B and C boosters, and TB booster I think.

      • Sonja Henie

        I think you mean Hep A and Hep B. There is no vaccine for Hep C. It was also probably a Td booster, hopefully Tdap if you’ve never had it. We don’t vaccinate for TB in the US.

        Just for clarity. I’m glad you got your shots.

        • sdsures

          No problem – I figured I might not remember everything. I focused more on remembering my actual trip, which was AMAZING!

          • Sonja Henie

            Great!

          • sdsures

            Sometimes I think about writing a book about it, but I want to go back there first. This should give you an idea, though. I was interviewed about my trip because of me having cerebral palsy: http://www.sras.org/stephanie_briggs_disabled_russia Russia, at least from appearances, seemed a daunting travel destination because of possible accessibility issues.

            It wasn’t as difficult I’d thought it would be. 😀 Fodor’s had all these warnings: mostly about cultural mores in Russia.

            It was completely inaccurate. Fortunately, neither Mom or I committed any social gaffes. But if anyone took the book’s advice literally, they would have come across as a mean, nasty and patronising tourist.

  • Linda Rosa

    Dr. Tuteur has supplied us with a splendid retort to the anti-vaxers! I’m sure it will get plenty of use.

  • Linda Rosa

    One of the things I would like to see the State of Colorado enforce is their law that allows belief exemptions only if some one is opposed to the practice of vaccination. Note this does not say opposed to any particular vaccines, so being picky about which vaccines you want your child to have or not would not warrant a belief exemption.

    • Nick Sanders

      Screw that. Belief exemptions need to be eliminated entirely.

    • Sonja Henie

      I never heard of that in Colorado and I worked peds /public health in CO for 30 years. AFAIK, you can be opposed to vaccination, vaccines, or a specific vaccine.

      They do now require the parents to submit an exemption form every year instead of just once; the schools will no longer carry the forms, either

      The above is as of this school year.

  • Gatita

    Apologies if this has been answered already but I keep seeing antivaxxers saying, “Are you up to date on your vaccines? Most adults aren’t.” as if it’s some amazing gotcha against mandating vaccines for children. I don’t get the logic. What are they trying to argue with that? How do you respond?

    • demodocus

      i guess they figure its hypocritical of anyone to advocate vaccinations for others (children) but not get any new ones themselves. I tell them the truth; i’ve had all my boosters and i shall get this year’s flu shot at my appointment.

      • Sonja Henie

        No, it’s a “gotcha” question.

    • Nick Sanders

      There is no right answer. If you say no, you’re a hypocrite, but if you say yes, you’re a sheeple.

      • Gatita

        Ding ding ding. I believe you hit the nail on the head

      • LaMont

        Wait, I think I have an answer! “Oh, I try to keep them up to date when I remember or am reminded by a doctor. Speaking of preventing disaster, are your smoke detector batteries under six months old? Because most people don’t keep those up to date, it’s terrible! We should clearly just stop mandating smoke detectors.”

        • Roadstergal

          LOL, that’s a very good parallel.

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      It seems to me like that makes vaccinating kids more rather than less important!

    • Bombshellrisa

      They think that is proves that since most adults grew up with a vaccine schedule that had far less on it and look! Nothing happened, they are ok, that is proves you don’t need to be fully vaccinated according to today’s recommended schedule. My parents got immunity from catching mumps and chicken pox. They have terrible stories about how much they suffered during these so called “mild” diseases.

      • Gatita

        Yeah, it’s weird to me that people get all crazy over the pain of the job but disregard the pain of mumps and the itching and scarring of chickenpox.

        • momofone

          I always wonder what they would do if they had to give themselves or their kids insulin shots.

        • Bombshellrisa

          My husband and I both have a couple facial scars from chicken pic. His is much less noticeable than mine (I had chicken pic at 13). We joke that our son is going to be so much better looking than either if us based on him being vaccinated against chicken pox.

          • Roadstergal

            I had the anti-vaxxer’s ‘perfect’ episode of chicken pox. No hospitalization, no scars. It was still weeks of misery and quarantine that I would happily have avoided. I remember the joy and family hugs when I was finally allowed out of my bedroom again!

      • FormerPhysicist

        Yes, all those who are adults now survived those illnesses.

        ETA: Snide comment. Survivor’s bias is a well-known fallacy.

        • MI Dawn

          It’s a little hard to get feedback from those who actually died from the diseases… (/snark)

        • Bombshellrisa

          It’s true. Sure, we have family members who had polio and didn’t up in an iron lung and grew to adulthood. We also put flowers on the graves of the ones who died from polio. The anti vax reasoning doesn’t take reality into account at all.

    • Sonja Henie

      They’re trying to be snide.

    • Box of Salt

      Ask them where their smallpox vax scar is.

      • Empliau

        I got the vax (born in 1960, we all did) but I have no scar. I have been told this means I didn’t react and thus get immunity. Good thing smallpox is gone!

        • MI Dawn

          Possibly. My scar is just about gone (born in 1962 in the US). My sister never had to get it – born 1967. I was incredibly jealous.

        • Who?

          I had the vax-born 1963-and also no scar.

        • Sonja Henie

          My memory is quite hazy about this, but IIRC, you were supposed to go back to the doctor some days after you got the smallpox vax to see if it “took”. I sort of remember my mom not taking us back because it was obvious it had taken. I have a scar, it fades with age. Got the vax about 1954.

      • lunasea

        If they are military or former, they might have one. Mine from 2008 is still hanging on.

      • Ardea

        I have one, but I was born in 1969.

    • J.B.

      I almost died of mastoiditis (ear infection spread t mastoid-bone? Process?) as a child and was quite happy for my kids to get pneumococcal vaccine. A statistician told me she refused that one because we have antibiotics. Antibiotics of course are not risk free! Presumably greater risk than the vaccine and of course we do know serious problems from overuse of antibiotics.

      • MI Dawn

        Oh, but antibiotics are OK. Vaccines are evil, because they are mostly shots. (Wonder how they’d react to an antibiotic shot? Those suckers HURT!!!)

        • Roadstergal

          I got the antibiotic shot in the ass when I was in the ER with a broken bone that was leaking marrow. Vaccines hurt less.

        • BeatriceC

          The last time I got a penicillin shot was for strep throat. I started to wonder if it would be worth it to just take my chances on the strep. That thing hurt. Good news is 12 hours later I was already feeling 90% better. I guess it was worth it.

      • Dr Kitty

        6% of infants with pneumococcal meningitis die.
        16% of survivors have brain damage.
        14% of survivors have epilepsy or seizures.
        25% of survivors are hearing impaired.

        That doesn’t count the pneumococcal sepsis and pneumonia morbidity and mortality.

        “We have antibiotics” is not a good reason not give pneumococcal vaccination.

        • Daleth

          My sister-in-law is part of the 25%: she’s deaf in one ear due to meningitis as a toddler. When our pediatrician offered the pneumococcal vaccine to our twins, we fucking JUMPED at the chance.

      • Linden

        Good grief. After our family’s brush with viral meningitis, I’m terrified of my toddler getting meningitis. It is horrible, horrible horrible. My husband is still suffering headaches, photophobia and small memory lapses *months* afterwards. So much for fully recovering in a few weeks.

      • Heidi

        I don’t understand people who think they are smarter in regards to vaccines than the agencies and doctors who put out the vaccine protocol. Unless my pediatrician recommends not getting something and can give me a good reason why, I’m getting it for my child! And as someone who dealt with a potentially deadly delayed allergic reaction to sulfa after I got a skin staph infection, I know if I ever contract MRSA, I’ll probably have to be hospitalized to receive a vancomycin IV. You just never know what antibiotics you might be allergic to and what the consequences that will be!

      • Madtowngirl

        By the time you become infected and diagnosed so that you can get said antibiotics, you’re suffering some pretty nasty symptoms. Why endure that?

        When I was working in “little” pharma, I had a co-worker refuse the flu vaccine because she “didn’t trust the government.” I couldn’t wrap my head around that one, since we saw DAILY what all is required to take a drug to market and keep it there.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        As someone who is allergic to two classes of antibiotics, and who has a loooooong list of health problems, I am very, very glad that I was allowed to get the pneumococcal vaccine/booster a few years early a few months before I was put on an immune-suppressant.

        Vaccines are easy; especially since my heart surgery so they no longer send me to hospital. Certainly easier than having to inject myself with anti-TNF every fortnight; more like the pricks for my blood glucose testing (type 2 diabetes) and I’m not complaining about that because one of my daughters-in-law has type one diabetes and has to inject herself several times a day in addition to the finger pricks.

      • Daleth

        A statistician told me she refused that one because we have antibiotics.

        Did you remind her that prevention is better than cure? Or would that have been too obvious?

    • Gene

      Yep. Including smallpox (post 9/11 hysteria) and anthrax (clinical trial). And I haven’t missed a flu shot in two decades.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I’m up to date on all my vaccines. I don’t know about “most” adults, but don’t pretend like this is a gotcha against me.

      And I advocate as well that all adults should get up to date

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I missed a flu vaccine once, about a decade ago. It happened to correspond with the year that my daughter’s flu vaccine was delayed due to a shortage at her pediatricians. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. Plus post-influenza pneumonia. We get our vaccines early in the season now.

    • Anonymous

      IN my line of work, I get a review every six months and a reminder of when any of my vaccines expires. Apparently I have until December to get Japanese encephalitis shots. I’m getting it tomorrow.

    • guest

      I respond with the truth: “Yes, I am up to date.” And if they harp on their idea that most adults aren’t, I follow up with more truth: I encourage all adults to get yearly flu shots and keep up with their boosters. As someone in a high-risk group for life-threatening flu complications, it’s important to me.

      • Gatita

        The more I think about it the more stupid the question becomes. Adults not up to date on their shots is a public health issue to be dealt with by funding it and launching a campaign to get doctors to routinely offer boosters when they see their patients (as they already do with flu shots). It’s not a reason to stop mandating children get the shots to attend school. So stupid.

        • Elaine

          It’s a way that they’re saying that people are hypocrites if they push vaccines for kids but aren’t up to date themselves. But as you note, the solution for that is to get the adults up to date too! Jeez. Helping get adults up to date on their vaccines is literally my job, as a pharmacist, and I’m happy to do it! And I am up to date myself as well.

          • Gatita

            I get the flu vaccine every year but now I’m wondering about Tdap booster. I thought I got one a few years ago but I don’t remember. Need to follow up on that.

          • Sonja Henie

            Currently, you’re only supposed to get one Tdap per lifetime unless you’re a pregnant woman; they you’re supposed to get one each pregnancy.

          • guest

            That doesn’t sound right. First, the tetanus booster has been suggested every 10 years for a long time. Then they repackaged it with the pertussis and diphtheria. My parents were encouraged to get a booster for that by their HMO even though they were not pregnant or planning to be around newborns. My pediatrician insisted that everyone who would be around the infants get a booster – not just the pregnant mother. WebMD (not my favorite source, but whatever) currently states that “the current recommendation is that everyone needs a booster shot for tetanus and diphtheria every 10 years after first being immunized.”

          • Sonja Henie

            It’s right. Td (tetanus -diphtheria )every 10 tears with one of those a Tdap. Pregnant women should get a Tdap in the third tlrimestler of every pregnancy, no matter how close they are. See the CDC. I’m in the car, can’t post a link right now.

          • Nick Sanders

            Right, for tetanus and diphtheria, without the pertussis component. Td, not Tdap.

          • Roadstergal

            Booster every 10 years on the US schedule.

        • swbarnes2

          Also I bet some adults not up to date have some immunity? Maybe not much for flu, but they probably are more likely to have more protection against the TDP set of bugs than someone who never had a vaccination.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, and adults born in the US before 1957 are considered immune to measles and mumps by right; those born in the US before 1980 are considered immune to chickenpox. About 85% of adults born before 1957 have had rubella as well. Prior to universal Hib vaccination for infants (1991 in the US) about 100% had had a Hib infection by age 6, and 100% had had rotavirus infection before the vaccine in 2006.

        • Sonja Henie

          Which campaign is in the works from my reading.

    • Bugsy

      I think it’s a good question generally, but not how anti-vaxxers use/abuse it. Asked in more of a general population, it can serve as a great reminder for us to check our vaccination status.

      My response is that yep, I’m fully UTD. Two babies in the past four years = two TDAP boosters. Titres checked for MMR prior to this most recent pregnancy, and our whole family makes an annual event out of our flu shots. Then again, I also have a shirt that says “Hug me, I’m vaccinated.” …

      • Sonja Henie

        I have a shirt that says, “Ask me why I vaccinate”. I used to wear it to work. That’s a little different, I realize.

      • SlammoFandango

        You can brag when they’re in college. Meanwhile, the verdict is still out…

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          My children are adults. What’s your point?

          • SlammoFandango

            I didn’t think I was addressing you….oh, that’s right, I wasn’t. ..

          • Explain the concept of a public forum, will you?

          • SlammoFandango

            Ahem…I’ve seen the doctor’s bio photo so it comes as no surprise that she’s raised children to adulthood. Why she would address me after it was I had responded on this thread to a young and rather brashly sophomoric mother of small children instead, remains a mystery.

            If by chance I was too subtle in my meaning when responding to the young lady, let me suggest again that once this young mother who has bragged of seeking out vaccines while her children were inutero and whom it is continues to actively seek all available vaccines for her children, raises those children to adulthood, we can then compare the well-being of the children we’ve all then raised.

            Meanwhile, she hasn’t yet raised healthy children and has a long way to go before it can at all be said she’s made all the right choices or is at all in a position to criticize the parenting choices of others…

          • demodocus

            i’m 40 and i raised my baby brother before i had my own. I agree with Bugsy, who by the way is too old for “young lady”. Just because you have a newborn doesn’t mean you aren’t middle aged.

          • SlammoFandango

            Quite, and just because you are 40, no matter how many little ones you may have supervised, does not necessarily mean you have raised any of your own children to adulthood or that any of them are a healthy, or intellegent, talented, personable, or emotionally balanced examples of your parenting skills either. I suggest parents save their judgements of other parents until they can show they haven’t phuqued up their own kids before criticizing the parenting choices made by other parents.

          • Nick Sanders

            You should take your own advice.

            And as an aside, the word is “fucked”. Misspelling it so that you avoid swearing on a technicality looks incredibly childish.

          • SlammoFandango

            Never EVER will you see writing of mine, in which I’m explaining to others how to parent, or how to spell, or how others should be sanctioned if they don’t agree with my opinions for how they should raise theIr children………….that would be YOU.

          • Nick Sanders

            Except for all the smugly condescending posts you’ve made about people’s vaccinated kids, you mean?

          • SlammoFandango

            Nope, I don’t think that’s correct. Now I might reserve the right to sometime in the future make a remark about somebody like YOU, who has never once for even one moment had to agonize over the future well being of one’s own child. I might however still want to insult you since it is you like to belittle people who have been in such a position to need to make vaccine choices, unlike you…

            ..but ummm…nope, I don’t think you’ll have found me picking on moms and dadsfor whatever vaccine choices they’ve made…That would be YOU.

          • Suppose Bob doesn’t feed his child. What do you think should happen to Bob?


          • Never EVER will you see writing of mine, in which I’m explaining to others how to parent, or how to spell, or how others should be sanctioned if they don’t agree with my opinions for how they should raise theIr children………….that would be YOU.”

            Oh, you think “kids, lme aside should be vaccinated” is just our opinion? It’s one backed by every major health org in the world – is yours?

            As for opinions about how to raise children, I don’t even have kids and though it isn’t my place to tell you what brand of formula to use or whether to breastfeed or not, I am confident of a few things:

            -Children need to be fed.
            -Children need either toilets, potties or diapers/nappies.
            -Children need protection from the elements.

          • Wren

            You will however imply that vaccinating one’s child could lead to consequences such as that child not going to college and you will take it upon yourself to tell the blog’s author that she should not reply to a comment you made in the public comments section of her blog.

            In case you are not clear on this, commenting publicly does carry with it the possibility others will respond to both the content and the presentation, grammar and spelling of your comment. If you cannot handle that or will be offended by it, you should avoid commenting in public forums. Perhaps a handwritten journal would be a good place for your thoughts?

          • SlammoFandango

            You are of course free to infer what you will, but by no means did I state that vaccinating one’s child would prevent the child from getting into college…I find you assertion that I have done so to be ludicrous.

            However, I will forever so quickly admonish a childless person with no experience as well as a new parent with very little experience in raising children, should such a critic attack someone else’s decision making or execution in child rearing. I do so because they, such critics, have never actually struggled with the responsibility of making medical decisions on behalf of another human as parents do for their children, or the 24/7/365 dilligence required for the minimum of 18 years as necessary in raising a child without bungling the job.

            If you haven’t done it, you aren’t an expert….

            And of course anyone is free to comment on my comments, including you. Again, as for Dr. Tuteur, she apparently hastily assumed I was addressing her in the imperative, which I was not. A simple misunderstanding, I’m sure. I quite doubt she finds any of this former matter at all troubling while I’m most sure it is otherwise she certainly would be quite capable of defending herself against me should she feel some burning need and so without any help from you.

          • momofone

            And if you have done it, you are an expert only on the specific experience you had, not on doing it in general.

          • SlammoFandango

            Right, and making hysterical claims against others as being child abusers or some such nonsense when the kids are in fact perfectly unharmed is just absurd. Yet it happens all the time.

          • momofone

            I haven’t seen any hysterical claims lately, but I’ll keep that in mind.

          • Nick Sanders

            Raising a kid doesn’t give you a medical degree. I don’t care how many kids you have or haven’t raised, your personal experience does not trump medical consensus.

          • Roadstergal

            Most of the parents at my job have a medical or science degree (or both). They vaccinate their kids.

          • SlammoFandango

            Only in a rarity of the world’s countries, and 3 out of 50 if these United States, does governmental representation of medical consensus override individual choice in this matter or can medical interventions be performed without the free consent of a patient or the patient’s guardian. Even then and most of the time it still can’t be forced but instead sanctions or punishment is all that ensues but not forced vaccination.

            The same goes for China’s one child policy; they pretty much just fine you rather than killing an unborn fetus or force sterilization.

            I’m not here to argue that vaccines are bad or that I think people should never get them or that I don’t think they don’t work. And I haven’t actually said any such thing.

            I’m instead here pointing out that most everyone else here like you, likes to stick their noses in other people’s affairs and when it is they shouldn’t and when it is they most certainly do not have the right to do so.

            I’m here to point out that people like you who think that buracracy should dictate what medical procedures people should undergo and when, think just as fascists do.

            I don’t like fascism. I’ll always speak out against fascism. And I’ll always point out to people like you when it is you might adopt a fascist mindset whether you are conscious of it or not.

          • Nick Sanders

            Public health is not “sticking my nose in other people’s affairs”. You’re not allowed to shit in the street, you can’t dump your garbage in the watershed, and now you can’t send your kids to school without vaccinations or a medical reason they cannot be vaccinated. Because it’s about more than just you.

            And if you think that’s fascist, your knowledge of politics is just as laughable as your knowledge of medicine. Mere exercise of governmental power does not fascism make. Hell, outright authoritarianism is not sufficient to make a policy or government fascist.

            Edit: Just noticed this juicy tidbit:

            or can medical interventions be performed without the free consent of a patient or the patient’s guardian.

            I would love to see some evidence that this is happening. Go on, I’ll wait.

          • SlammoFandango

            Exactly right medical interventions are not happening without the free consent of a patient or a patient’s guardian. Your know damn well I’ve been saying exactly that all over this very thread. Perhaps you might go back and reread a bit if yoi think you think ive been claiming needles have been jabbed into arms while parents protested….Of course many families are being COERCED to give that consent while it also is some of the folks on this thread are calling for kids to be force vaccinated and wide for it to happen but that of course is not me making such claims of there being a right of the public safety for such to be forced.

            But hey Skippy, why don’t you go ahead a school me on fascism and tell me what the indicators are…

          • Sure, lets talk about fascism and its indicators (says the person with a BA and MA in politics and political economy).

            It’s usually populist, taking root in times of economic turmoil by promising a return to a mythical, idealized past. It’s associated with violence- Brownshirts or the like, rallies that are violent and hate-filled, and often orchestrated riots. Fascism is also associated with oligarchy as an economic system; friends of the government are given free reign to make lots of money very corruptly, and only a small coterie of businesspeople is counted in that group. These people control the economic means of production, though in the end all production is for the use and benefit of the state. It’s not a controlled economy per se because the government isn’t calling the shots on what factory makes what, but government needs do drive economic output.

            Fascism is also strongly correlated with all sorts of bigotry- misogyny, racism, xenophobia, that sort of thing. It’s a pretty militaristic and nationalistic ideology as well, focused on military strength and meeting international goals through threat and use of force instead of diplomacy. The military, especially a very machismo-filled variety of it, is held up as beyond reproach no matter what. Combined with this is denigration of women, who are relegated to raising sons to turn into soldiers for the homeland. All this aggression is turned towards the Other, who is usually of a different race and/or religion; fear of this Other stokes the nationalistic fervor and paranoia inherent in fascism.

            Something you might note is a distinct lack of forced medical care … because that simply isn’t a hallmark of fascism. Oh, that’s not saying that forced medical care is good! It’s not. But it’s also not fascistic.

          • SlammoFandango

            I like that answer.

            I caught myself wanting to criticize you for too much focus on fashion and dichotomy as it may have uniquely accompanied previous renditions of fascism in their respective places and times, and which as features, are generally mentioned too much i think, and weigh too heavily upon most other people’s discriptions.

            However yours was quite well balanced in also alluding to the heart of the synergy formed between favored private enterprise (oligarchy) and government, working toward a mutual goal of expanding the scope of influence for each other and doing so all the while justifying the requisite corrupt centralization of authority to the people as some grand cause toward a greater efficiency. I very much agree with most all of what you wrote.

            Well done.

            Now, may I tell you about special interest money in Sacramento influencing the former director of the US Department of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, who for some time now runs the California University system which has within it UC Davis, which had until recently an outrageously corrupt leadership which actually ordered physical assault on protesting students..as Davis has and further stands to bring in significant funds from vaccine research…Davis from its endowment contributed an entirely lopsided amount of campaign funding in electing to office a brand new California Senator who was also overwhelmingly supported by pharmaceutical companies which coincidentally have worked with Davis previously. This brand new Senator, having brought no other notable legislation prior to SB277, got this, the most controversial legislation in recent California history passed within months of taking office.

            No brown shirts, no shiny black boots but still a tiny 2 or 3 percent subgroup who maybe passed on only but one vaccine on the schedule has been singled out and vilified and their beliefs described by the very same narators as are signing the checks (they don’t vaccines because they all believe some Playboy Bunny who says vaccines cause autism)…so the story goes and the press parrots the same story ala Goebbols…

            So now California lives with a degree of coercion that exists in only a very few countries of the world and in this country, just only otherwise within those intellectual bastions known as West Virginia and Mississippi.

            Oh and the new law has provisions so that should a new product for preventing Vaccine Preventable Disease get developed at say, UC Davis, that new vaccine can be mandated for all of California’s school kids too without need for public debate….efficient, eh?

            But nah, that’s prolly not a synergy between corporations and government working to expand the scope and influence of each other or anything…..I’m prolly reading too much into that to think it’s fascist.

          • Considering that vaccines don’t actually make much money, and Big Pharma would make waaay more money letting people get sick and then treating them, nope not seeing any synergy whatsoever between them.

            Also considering that there isn’t actually any coercion involved, because it’s a simple trade: want to be involved in the public and interacting with it, you have to do your part to protect said public, and you don’t have to do either … nope, still not seeing it.

            Glad we had this talk. Conspiracists are funny.

          • Nick Sanders

            Only in a rarity of the world’s countries, and 3 out of 50 if these United States, does governmental representation of medical consensus override individual choice in this matter or can medical interventions be performed without the free consent of a patient or the patient’s guardian.

            You are not just implying, but outright stating, that in 3 states, medical interventions can be performed without consent.

            As for fascism, the main tenets are ultra-nationalism, a single central authority figure who is seen as the embodiment of the nation, a one party state, totalitarianism, third way economics with a mixed market economy, and militarism.

          • SlammoFandango

            Actually I quite clearly stated that those 3 states incorporate extortion. The extortion they employ mainly involves the withholding of valuable state services. California is now going even further and restricting the 1st Amendment right to free assembly by not even allowing private schools to admit these students.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s not extortion, and if you have to pay for it, it’s not free assembly, it’s a business and it can be regulated.

          • SlammoFandango

            No, not for profit organizations are by their very definition, not businesses as you claim; you are flat wrong. Your cognitive dissonance is showing…

            This law (CA SB277) oversteps freedom of assembly even in instances whereby a non-publicly funded not for profit school charges no tuition or any direct fees to students.

            There is no magical barrier that prevents legislation of unconstitutional laws.

            Just because the California constitution states that the legislature “is to write no law” that violates the California and US constitutions, does not actually then mean the California legislature can’t ignore that directive and pass unconstitutional laws ANYWAY.

            History is full of many many accounts of unjust laws getting passed and enforced in violation of the rights of people who usually stand in a minority as folks in a majority like you cheer on such injustice….I could name several such instances off the top of my head right now.

            Usually and eventually, bad legislation the likes of SB277 gets recinded.

          • Nick Sanders

            I never so much as implied there was such a barrier. Please put down the strawman and back away.

          • SlammoFandango

            I made no strawman argument; you were the claiming private schools are all businesses. I’ve explained how not all private are alike..nothing I said could be LESS of a strawman argument.

            It also is neither you nor I was at all even making any mention or critique of any authoritative body BESIDES the California legislature. How it is you take it that i was somehow figuratively pointing to a ‘strawman’ makes no sense. I instead assume you’ve only just noticed the term bandied about without ever actually taking the effort to undetstand what it means, and just used it here in hopes that I too do not understand the term ‘strawman argument’ but that i just might be dazzled by the usage of a term I don’t understand….It’s instead just that much more apparent you were desperately projecting in your lame attempt at deflecting; and it was an epic failure.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, I used it because it is a term meaning that one is attacking a weak argument or preposterous position that their opponent didn’t take in order to make your own claims look stronger, rather than addressing the actual statements made by their opponent. And that’s exactly what you did with your “magical barrier” tirade.

            Further, regardless of whether the school in question happens to be a for-profit or non-profit institution, there are regulations on both. Further, there are regulations on schools that apply to all of them: public, for-profit private, non-profit private, or any organizational classification not already stated. In no way does any of this violate freedom of assembly.

          • SlammoFandango

            Ummm I in no way offered up any other examples of any other arguments or in any way suggested anyone else’s flawed position was analogous. I can think of many that ARE, but I didn’t cite any…

            It might be easier for everyone if you just admitted that you used the term ‘strawman argument’ without any meaningful pertinence. I’ll then happily pardon the faux pas and we can then just move on…

          • 1905 is the first “bad leglisation” of the kind….so when is it getting repealed?

            By the way, it was passed in the first place because people like you insisted on trampling on the rights of the majority.

          • SlammoFandango

            If you’re talking about Jacobson v Mass. Nobody in the Jacobson family was ever forced to take the shot. Jacobson was then fined five whole dollars. Jacobson refused to pay the five whole dollar fine on a matter of principle. He then sued. The court ruled that the state had the right to fine him afterall….That was all the matter involved and again, no vaccine was ever successfully forced on any members of Jacobson’s family.

            That authoritarians like you claim the case stands for anything in precedent beyond just the state having authority to fine people who are ‘difficult’, is a bit of a stretch.

          • No, I’m not talking about Jacobson vs Mass. I’m talking about the fact that there was a court case in TWENTY-FIFTEEN that upheld the right of states to set school mandates citing Jacobson vs MA as precedent and its limits on religious freedom.

            Please do try and keep up – this is a subtle distinction, I realize, but you’re so much smarter than the global scientific and medical consensus it should prove no trouble for you. Freedom of religion does not include the liberty to expose the child nor the community to communicable diseases. Additionally, quarantine has been a responsibility of government since…oh, at least biblical times.

            “Five whole dollars.” That was in 1905 – today, that same fine would be $486.16.

            http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

          • SlammoFandango

            Name the case please.

            There have been quite a few really horrible rulings using Jacobson as a reference besides whatever vague 2015 case you don’t seem to be able to actually cite….Such as ‘Buck v Bell (Virginia 1927) in which Jacobson was used in claiming power for the state in protecting the public from ‘the mentally incompetent’ and so hundreds of thousands of people were forced against their will to undergo surgical sterilization.

            There really is no end to the ‘solutions’ people with too much power will inflict in the name of ‘public safety’.

          • WHEN is this going to happen?

            The 2015 case is Phillips Vs New York.

          • Hahha! This case has been settled over a hundred years ago, upheld just last year.

          • Wren

            Oh wow. I’m sorry I didn’t see just how highly you think of yourself before commenting. Got it now.

            Raising a child is irrelevant to the science on vaccination. If you believe it is somehow relevant or that one who has not completed this task cannot or should not state the facts you are sorely mistaken.

            For the record, even if you have raised a dozen children, you still aren’t an expert. Expertise isn’t even required in parenting. I cannot imagine even my great-grandmother who raised, to adulthood, 10 children would have the hubris to believe that experience somehow made her an expert. Of course, her kids were raised to become good men and women, but not one went to college at 18, so I suppose she wouldn’t qualify as an expert.

            The only expertise required in vaccination is that of the scientists creating the vaccines and the health care professional giving the vaccine. Those involved in the manufacture and distribution should meet the standards necessary to produce and distribute the vaccine, but expertise is likely not needed at all steps. The person receiving the vaccine requires no expertise at all.

            I am doubtful Dr Tuteur misunderstood you. I agree she does not need my help. I just hate watching yet another commenter act as though she controls who may comment here.

          • I dunno. I can see becoming a sort of “local expert” in normal parenting-questions. Like….this is obviously not good as anything other than a thought experiment but there’s a neighbour in one of the classics who’s raised x number of children and buried y number of children so if there’s a situation where kids are “Not sick enough to need the doctor but too sick for new parents to handle it”…they take the kid to the relevant neighbour or have the neighbour come in for a cup of tea and have a look at the child.

            That kind of expert makes sense. Not the kind SlammoFandango is talking about, though.

          • Yes. If you wish to only talk to parents….start your own blog and have the captcha for registration involve simple questions about their kids and don’t allow guest commenting.

          • momofone

            In the same way that you saved your judgment, I’m sure.

          • demodocus

            How do you know whether I *literally* raised my brother? THere’s 20 years between my mother’s eldest and youngest children

          • MaineJen

            …we are all duly impressed by your creative writing degree.

    • Maud Pie

      I just encountered this on Facebook this week. I thought the subtext of the question was: I’ll bet you’re not up-to-date because you’re afraid for yourself but you don’t mind harming your kids, you bad mother!

      At least I think that was the implication. I don’t speak Wingnut so I might have misinterpreted. This person was batshit insane even by anti-vaxxer standards. I wouldn’t have gotten involved, but my niece wandered into the fray and I felt obligated to support her.

      • Heidi

        I think that’s what the implication is, too.

    • Ardea

      Sometimes it seems like they (or the climate denialists or the creationists) all have the same talking points. They are doing their best to implicate you as someone who is weakening the herd and therefore play on your guilt and derail the argument to vaccinate. I think it is called a “tu quoque” fallacy – or a “you too!” fallacy in argumentation. You can point that out to them.

    • Sonja Henie

      They have lots of “gotchas” that really are not.

    • Diet dee

      Pro Vax are always raving about the importance of herd immunity. But newborn are surrounded by people who where vaccinated 20 to 30 years ago (doctors, nurses and family. The protection from those vaccines has been reduced significantly. The herd is not immune and therefore no herd immunity.

  • anon

    Dr. Tuteur: I’m happy to oblige and “help you out.”

    It’s interesting that when it comes to medicine, it’s the one area where the majority of people blindly trust the corporations to act in their best interest. Scientific fraud is rife and always will be so long as there is compensation and stock options tied to bringing these products, including vaccines, online.

    And so it is not “science” that we take issue with, but fraud and misrepresentation within the scientific community. The numbers speak for themselves.

    http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e377

    http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.list/tagNo/2642/tags/scientific-fraud/

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005738

    “A pooled weighted average of 1.97% (N = 7, 95%CI: 0.86–4.45) of scientists admitted to have fabricated, falsified or modified data or results at least once –a serious form of misconduct by any standard– and up to 33.7% admitted other questionable research practices. In surveys asking about the behaviour of colleagues, admission rates were 14.12% (N = 12, 95% CI: 9.91–19.72) for falsification, and up to 72% for other questionable research practices. Meta-regression showed that self reports surveys, surveys using the words “falsification” or “fabrication”, and mailed surveys yielded lower percentages of misconduct. When these factors were controlled for, misconduct was reported more frequently by medical/pharmacological researchers than others.”,

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      So you think you’re smarter because you blindly trust quacks and charlatans? Surely you’re joking.

      By the way, quoting a few studies isn’t going to convince us of anything. Science is about the PREPONDERANCE of the evidence and you don’t know what that is unless you have read the bulk of the literature.

      • anon

        Where did I advise that I “trust quacks and charlatans” or that I “think I’m smarter?”

        Please refrain from speculation, as it does not further the dialogue or get us closer to producing science evidence that is unencumbered by fraud.

        I’m here as an advocate against scientific fraud and misconduct.

        If data is corrupt for any reason, or studies are flawed, they must be eliminated from the larger body of collective research. They are unreliable. Surely you agree, as a practitioner, or former practitioner, of evidence based medicine.

        • MI Dawn

          So you agree with Hooker’s study being retracted, and Wakefield’s being retracted, right? They were full of flaws.

          • anon

            I agree with any study that is fraudulent or corrupted being retracted.

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s good, because the only fraud has been on the antivax side.

          • Heidi_storage

            If only you really meant that!

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Spare us! You’re here as an arrogant, ignorant fool trying desperately to justify your nonsensical beliefs. You’re wasting your time.

    • MI Dawn

      Nice articles. Most of them have to do with other forms of science than just medical studies. And we aren’t saying there isn’t fraud in medical science – after all, Wakefraud managed to get published (oh, and then retracted for misconduct and falsified data) and Hooker’s study was published and then retracted for bad science and an undeclared conflict of interest.

      BUT – science is self-correcting. Other people do the studies and either confirm or don’t confirm the results. More people test. That’s how we know vaccines don’t cause autism whether they are the MMR or had thimerosal in them. Lots and lots of studies done all over the world, by independent researchers, universities, drug companies.

      No one blindly trusts (unless you are one of those who prefere SCAM like homeopathy) instead of science-based medicine.

    • Roadstergal

      Yup! If any woo-meisters try to convince you that turmeric is a treatment for cancer – or for inflammatory conditions – tell them that all seven papers of the guy who was promoting that were retracted due to falsification of data, and he was dismissed from MD Anderson.
      http://retractionwatch.com/2016/02/22/journal-retracts-7-papers-by-md-anderson-researcher-long-under-investigation/

      Science is good at correcting. Vaccine science is some of the most-examined – and therefore sturdiest – science out there.

    • Mike Stevens

      Yes, there are frauds like Wakefield.
      Do you have a point relevant to the discussion?

    • sdsures

      You need a few courses in statistics, anon.

  • Diet dee

    If vaccines work why the need to avoid anti Vaxxers. Outbreak will happens even in highly vaccinated populations. Measles s hardly a dead sentence in the USA.

    • Monkey Professor for a Head

      I’m getting sick of having to debunk this ridiculous statement, but here it goes again.

      Firstly vaccines do not work in 100% of people – and before you say it, no that does not make them useless. Protecting most people from disease is a hell of a lot better than protecting none. Secondly people can lose their immunity by becoming immunocompromised. Thirdly some people cannot receive certain vaccines, such as people who are allergic, certain immunosuppressed people and young infants. So i vaccinate not just to protect myself but to also protect those around me.

      Outbreaks happen less commonly in highly vaccinated populations. As far as I’m concerned, the fewer VPD outbreaks the better.

      And people can still die of measles in the USA. Immunocompromised people and those at either extreme of age are particularly vulnerable. Again, I happen to care about those people, even if you don’t.

      • Mariana

        Vaccines are so effective polio has been eradicated. Measles had been nearly eradicated in Brazil before the Disneyland outbreak. I don’t understand why this is so hard to believe… Cholera has no vaccine, the disease comes and goes in cycles around the world and is never completely eradicated.

        • Nick Sanders

          Minor correction: polio is only very nearly eradicated. Smallpox on the other hand, is gone.

    • Who?

      Why would one not avoid anti-vaxxers? And I’d think they’d be delighted to avoid the rest of us.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Sigh.
      1. Vaccines are not 100% effective.
      2. Immunity can wane for a number of reasons, especially in people who are immunosuppressed for any reason.
      3. Some people can not be vaccinated for various reasons. They strongly overlap with people who are immunosuppressed.
      4. Measles, specifically, causes immunosuppression and vaccination has been associated with a drop not only in deaths from measles but also in deaths from pneumonia and other infectious diseases.
      5. Unvaccinated people are better vectors for the disease and increase the risk for everyone, including and especially vulnerable populations (old, young, immunosuppressed).

    • MI Dawn

      Along with the answers below: just keep your kids at home, then we don’t need to avoid you.

      • Diet dee

        You only need to avoid infected children. Sick kids stay home. Uninfected go to school why is that so hard.

        • T.

          Because many illness, among which measle, are contagious BEFORE the first symptoms.

          You know really nothing do you

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          Actually with measles, infected individuals are contagious before symptoms begin.

        • momofone

          Why is it so hard to understand that many illnesses are contagious BEFORE they cause symptoms?

          • demodocus

            I suspect repitition is not a bad thing here.

          • MI Dawn

            And so did I…I should read ALL the comments before replying.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Incubation period.
          Disneyland measles outbreak.

          • Diet dee

            It wasn’t antivaxxets and it wasn’t at a school

          • Bombshellrisa

            Do you think that unvaccinated children’s contact with the outside world is only through school?

          • Nick Sanders

            It was antivaxxers.

        • guest

          It only takes one irresponsible family who doesn’t keep their sick kid home even when they begin to show symptoms. One sick child can start an epidemic, or kill one immunocompromised child, or one infant, or one person whose vaccine didn’t take.

          • momofone

            Or one dumbass who thinks sharing is great because it gives everyone the opportunity to develop “natural immunity.”

          • guest

            Yes. That’s the height of irresponsibility. And anti-vaxxers never seen to recognize that if more people “woke up” and “did their research” as they implore, you’d eventually end up with a kid who is sick with measles, whose low-income parents can’t afford to take off work so they send the kid to school sick (not knowing it was measles, perhaps, but knowing the kid was sick). They’re only doing with that anti-vaxxers told them was best, but BOOM: epidemic. Anti-vax is such an obnoxiously privileged philosophy. It makes me sick.

          • Beth

            I never understood the logic of preferring natural immunity. “she got the disease, now she’s better and she has natural immunity!” Um, the whole reason we want immunity is to avoid getting the disease. It’s sort of like saying “hey, my house burned to the ground, it’s safe from fires now!”

          • MI Dawn

            And not everyone gets natural immunity from the disease, either. Or, the immunity wanes. Or you get long term sequelae like SSPE or shingles.

          • Fleur

            My mother is a teacher and, last year, she caught pertussis from a child in her class whose parents sent him into school when he was obviously miserably ill. If she’d caught it just six months later, she could very easily have passed it on to my newborn baby, which isn’t something I even want to think about. It’s also very lucky that the child didn’t start an epidemic at the school, as it’s an SEN school and a number of the pupils have very fragile immune systems. But I guess they’re the kind of kids anti-vaxxers are talking about when they say that infectious diseases aren’t a big deal because they only kill imperfect kids with pre-existing health problems, huh?

          • Andrew Lazarus

            What they mean, but are usually too chicken to type, is that these diseases cull the herd, leaving the magnificent specimens such as themselves behind.

            Somehow their Badass Immune Systems™ are always good enough to defeat measles and polio, but a shot with weakened strains of the same diseases scares the heck out of them.

          • Nick Sanders
        • demodocus

          many viruses are contagious before you show symptoms

        • Erin

          I had chicken pox with virtually zero symptoms apart from a couple of spots. My parents thought I had a couple of midge bites until I left an outbreak of chicken pox behind me. They certainly didn’t think I was sick enough to not to go to school.

          I had German Measles with virtually zero symptoms apart from a couple of spots. Luckily my next door neighbour/tutor who happened to be pregnant didn’t get infected but I could have done serious if not fatal damage to her unborn baby. That’s lot of guilt to lay on a young child.

          (I had my first febrile convulsion shortly after I was vaccinated against measles so my parents stopped vaccinating me).

        • Christina Maxwell

          Are you really that stupid? Ever heard of the incubation period? You know, that bit before actual symptoms emerge?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Many infectious diseases have a prodromal period where the person is contagious but asymptomatic. In some cases, that can be the most contagious period. In addition, some parents may not keep their child at home if they feel that they are only a little sick. (Especially if they have limited time off to spend with a sick kid, etc.)

        • MI Dawn

          And what about the kids who are infectious but don’t appear sick? Remember, many diseases are infectious BEFORE a parent knows the kid is sick. Keep your disease vectors at home.

        • Anonymous

          That works if you’re not counting carriers. Given that there is an incubation period, and a contagion period where the virus is not detectable, there is plenty of chance to spread measles as it’s airborne, and it takes 7-10 days for symptoms to appear.

        • Box of Salt

          “sick kids stay home”
          And that’s exactly why through the 1970s, in age of stay-at-home moms, school classrooms were never ever ever emptied by infectious disease outbreaks.
          /sarcasm.

          Folks like Diet Dee need to learn some history.

        • Guest

          Do you even know anything about measles? That people get sick first and then develop a rash? That someone can be spreading the illness for days even a week or more before they know they have measles? That many people, including doctors, have never seen a case of the measles and don’t know how to diagnose it quickly?

          You act like a person gets sick with this virus and ding, ding, ding a measles alarm goes off and they know they have it. You have to be a blithering idiot to think it’s as simple as get sick, stay home.

        • Sonja Henie

          For one thing, Dd, kids can be contagious before they have symptoms. In addition, the early symptoms of pertussis are similar to the common cold.

        • If Natural Immunity works so well, why are anti-vaxxers afraid of shedding? I can post nonsense too.

        • Surely, with all your research, you have come across the basic concept of an incubation period?

          • Diet dee

            I might have ebola since I never got the vaccine, doesn’t mean you can keep me out of school for it.

          • Sigh. Vastly differing R0 numbers.

            1)Have you come across the concept of “incubation period” in all your research?

            2)With all that research, surely, you can count from 0 to 100 without skipping any of the numbers in between?

            3)I’d love to read your research – which journal is it published in?

          • Yes, it does. Try sending your kid to school naked and see what happens.

          • Nick Sanders

            If you had been to an area having an ebola outbreak, you absolutely would be quarantined for observation.

          • SlammoFandango

            Well gee wiz, that makes sense doesn’t it?

            There’s no point in having a quarantine against the extremely deadly ebola virusunless there’s actually an outbreak.

            However, we’re going to now have a standing quarantine against measles in California even though there are no measles in California.

            Meanwhile, if there actually were an actual measles presence in California, the parameters set forth by California’s new law wouldn’t actually keep California school kids away from measles since school kids wouldn’t and couldn’t be ordered to remain at school.

            By far the smarter way to go about it would NOT have been to reject unvaccinated school kids into unsupervised home school situations where they can and do go anywhere without supervision

            The smart thing is to keep unvaccinated kids in the school system and reporting to their physical school sights every week day Then, if there is an outbreak, those kids can be far more efficiently found and quarantined.

            Think about it: It’s 11 o’clock on a Wednesday in California and you want to quarantine all the unvaccinated kids. Well, all that needs to be done is send maybe one school bus to each school and you’ve got a quarantine in place that very day.

            Instead, this new stupid law scatters all the unvaccinated kids all over the city and where it is they are free to roam in God knows how many public locations that are otherwise filled with everybody BUT school kids during the day.

          • Nick Sanders

            No, the smart thing is to vaccinate the kids. Measles is contagious days before it display any symptoms, and the earliest symptoms are similar to those of a cold.

            Also, you’re not very bright if you think that because of this law, they are just roaming the streets. They still have to receive some form of education or run afoul of truancy laws. Which means that the parents that absolutely refuse to vaccinate will have to send them to private schools or homeschool them, not just let them run wild.

          • Sonja Henie

            The CA law applies to private schools too. The parents will have to home-school, online school, something like that.

          • Nick Sanders

            Even better!

          • SlammoFandango

            Again, you don’t know what you’re even talking about.

            Private schools are also prohibited from taking unvaccinated kids.

            You also clearly don’t know the first thing about homeschooled kids as it in fact is home is hardly at all where they spend all their time.

          • Nick Sanders

            I noticed you didn’t rebut the main point, that vaccination is better, since it prevents the disease, rather than playing catch up after the disease is already in the middle of an outbreak.

          • Wren

            Is that last sentence, ignoring the slam about Nick not knowing anything about homeschooled kids (good one, really), supposed to be saying homeschooled kids don’t spend much time at home?

          • Nick Sanders

            Personally, I would assume they spend roughly as much time on instruction at home as children attending public and private schools spend in school. At least the ones being properly homeschooled, rather than raised by parents who say they are “homeschooling” when what they are really doing is deliberately avoiding an education for their kids, such as members of things like the quiverfull movement and other groups that reject modern society outright.

            I would then assume that the rest of their time is similarly proportioned to other kids “out of school” time. Some at home, some with with their friends, some out with their parents as they run errands, etc.

          • BeatriceC

            I wouldn’t make that assumption. As a teacher, I have to manage a class of 30 or so kids. Transitions between activities and classes take up a more time than one might think. At the elementary school level, the teacher transitions from one subject to the next, the kids have to put away materials, get new ones out, and then settle back down. Then there’s whole class bathroom breaks, lining up to go to specials (music, art, PE), lunch, etc. At the middle and high school level you spend time allowing them to pack their stuff up in order to get to their next class, and then settling them down when your new class comes in. There’s traditions between activities at those levels as well, which take time.

            In addition to all that, again, the teacher is managing 20-50 kids (depending on age and school district…up to 60 if you’re in a situation similar to a friend of mine who wound up leaving teaching over class sizes). The teacher has to teach to the whole class. That means she’s going to go too fast for some students and too slow for others. There’s going to be time she’s spending with a single student or a group of students while the others aren’t doing much of anything. When you’re just teaching your own kids, you can cater lessons to that child’s pace and not be distracted by 30 other kids.

            All that combines to the ability to get a “full” school day in just a couple hours if you’re just teaching two or three kids.

          • Sonja Henie

            Most states have laws about how many hours a day must be spent on homeschool instruction. In Colorado (I know, not the subject) it’s 4 hours a day. Dunno about Cali, don’t care. But of course, the kids are mostly going to be at home, especially the younger ones.

          • SOME states do. Many states do not- Texas, where I live, has literally zero regulation of homeschooling. You tell the district you intend to homeschool and the kid basically disappears from any official records. No rules on curriculum, hours spent on school, no testing or follow-up requirements, nothing.

            “Homeschooling” is how a lot of abusers get away with it, because a teacher will call CPS, the kid will get yanked out of school, and now no one is around to report anything.

          • To be fair, I think there are actual homeschoolers who perhaps spend more time on fieldtrip equivalents than the school system would tend to.

          • As BeatriceC said, you’re forgetting the time taken to “wrangle” 15-30 kids versus 3.

            Families like the Duggars….yeah, you may have a point there.

    • Azuran

      I can’t believe anti-vaxxers claim to have done their research and yet keep asking the same stupid questions.

    • Nick Sanders

      Outbreak will happens even in highly vaccinated populations.

      So far, every single outbreak has been in undervaccinated populations.

      • Mariana

        An outbreak occurred in Brazil a few years ago when people came back from Disney parks with the virus. Vaccination is mandatory here (you can’t enrol in school without it, and it’s illegal to home school). Measles had been nearly eradicated before that. It did kill people, mostly very youn babies and people we were immunocompromised.

        Vaccine refusal is not even an issue here… They are mostly free and provided by the federal government.

        • Nick Sanders

          I’m sorry that happened, and I hope the cause was remedied. Sadly, I know far less about vaccination protocols, vaccines used, and outbreaks outside the USA than I do about the domestic (for me) ones.

    • Heidi_storage

      Oh geez, not this person again. Not these same tired arguments again! (To say nothing of the typos and atrocious grammar, but maybe this person’s first language isn’t English.)

      The Computer Ate My Nym addressed your question, and the only thing I have to add is: What sort of heartless sicko dismisses measles because everybody doesn’t die of it in the U.S.? Some people (especially babies) do die of it, and for many who don’t die there’s significant suffering–several days of severe illness, sometimes hospitalization.

      • Nick Sanders

        Don’t forget the potential for lasting sequelae like deafness or brain damage. And of course, thanks to the possibility of SSPE, it’s actually not until several years after you get the measles that you can say it didn’t kill you.

        • T.

          I got measle twenty some years ago, as did my sister. In the subsequent year we both came down VERY HARD with viral illness that almost killed us. In retrospect, it likely was the measle’s fault.

          The docs still have no idea about what almost killed us.

          • MI Dawn

            My mom and uncle had measles (well, my mom had mumps THEN measles) one year. That whole winter they were constantly sick – colds, viral illnesses. My mom missed nearly 3 months of school, all told. If my grandmother could have had them vaccinated against those diseases (as well as the other terrors – polio, pertussis, etc), she would have dragged them to the ends of the earth for the vaccines.

        • Indeed. Just popping in on coffee break to point out that SSPE is fairly often a complication of children who got measles as babies and young toddlers and that wording is intentional.

          Of course, if the measles DOES kill you then you’re not here to tell us about it.

      • Heidi_storage

        I thought about this conversation as I learned that my poor 18-month-old may have mono. It’s unlikely to be serious, he’ll most probably be fine in 7 or 10-more days, but after seeing him utterly wretched with fever and a sore throat I am the more confused by people who want to expose their children to preventable illnesses.

    • demodocus

      Because vaccines aren’t 100% effective, because my sister has cancer and my newborn can’t be vaccinated yet, because the death rate for measles is far higher than the one for the MMR vaccine even in the US, because going deaf or blind sucks. Sheesh

      • Diet dee

        Your newborn and your sister are not going to school.

        • T.

          My cousin with brain cancer is going to school. And you are an idiot who win the prize for the most idiotic answer ever.

        • Nick Sanders

          Viruses can live on surfaces for periods ranging from hours to weeks. All it would take is the wrong person coughing or sneezing on you and you are now bring home a dangerous potential infection.

          • Roadstergal

            …to months, if we’re talking about HebB. Yeah, the one that you don’t have to vaccinate your kid against unless they’re an IV drug user or a prostitute. Except, no.

        • momofone

          Her older child may be. And her sister (and newborn) go to doctor’s offices. And to stores. And to lots of other places.

        • demodocus

          No, but my nephew does, and i’m a teacher

        • demodocus

          And how do you know whether my sister goes to school? You do not need to be a child to have a valid reason to go to school every day. Our English teacher continued to teach whenever he was able when he had cancer.

        • Heidi

          I don’t think my baby gets his first round of MMR until he’s a year old. In the meantime, I don’t want to be chained to my house. I like to go out to eat, go to the grocery store, do some shopping, go to the park and library with him. He needs the stimulation. I don’t want him to be around unvaccinated children or adults there!

        • MI Dawn

          And how do you know her sister isn’t in school?

        • Who’s teaching the kids, Diet Dee?

      • Because my grandparents are elderly, my other sister is pregnant (both are mildly immunocomprised states).

        Because nobody who has any common sense at all wants the disease circulating in the population for funsies.

    • corblimeybot

      Oh shit, no one’s ever heard that one before. Damn. You’ve finally done it. You’ve outfoxed the entire field of modern medicine. Thousands and thousands of medical professions who devoted their lives to the study of vaccination and epidemiology, and you just pulled the rug out from under them with one semi-literate regurgitation.

      • Diet dee

        Glad to help

    • guest

      O hai, counter argument meme that will not die! So good to see this same inane question here again, so we can answer it AGAIN, and you can ignore the answer AGAIN.

      Herd. Fucking. Immunity.

      See also: Vaccines aren’t 100% effective, people who are allergic to vaccines, people who are immunocompromised, and people who are too young to have been vaccinated yet.

      • Diet dee

        Everyone is a grade school is old enough to be vaccinated. The chance of getting measles is like getting hit by lightning while underground. You might as well get a black plague vaccine while you are at it.

        • momofone

          “The chance of getting measles is like getting hit by lightning while underground.”

          Please share your source for that claim.

        • Bombshellrisa

          Siblings too young to be vaccinated often accompany parents who volunteer in the schools, go to school functions like plays and concerts and carnivals and have contact with school age children. Plus school breaks where families go to things like library story time and like that.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          LOLOL! You just made that up. Try again!

        • guest

          I can only LOL as well. You didn’t read any of what I wrote. Babies are only one group who need herd immunity protection (yes, even if they don’t go to school – they might, after all, need to come along to school when their caregiver picks up their older sibling. Or they might visit a public place where an infected person has left germs behind. It’s almost as if babies are people who don’t live in a bubble, so weird, I know.)

          • Or even if there are two parents so that there is no need for that to happen.

            Measles can live in the air for like two hours.

            So Annie’s unvaccinated kid gets measles and thanks to the incubation period, she doesn’t know this yet. Since there’s “no reason to keep a healthy child out of school” – she sends little Susceptible Samuel off to school.

            Samuel rides in a closed space (like a lift) at say 2pm. The measles particles stay in that lift until 4pm. Little Vaccinated Vernon takes that lift at 3pm – he’s fine but he now has “measles particles” on his clothes.

            Samuel arrives home within the next hour and has a cuddle with Evan, who is only eleven months old and won’t get the vaccine for another month. Evan breathes in measles particles from clothes.

        • corblimeybot
        • Madtowngirl

          “The chance of getting measles is like getting hit by lightning while underground.”

          Really? Then why are there an increasing number of outbreaks on college campuses?

          • Diet dee

            Vaccine failure or increased awareness none of which will be solved by more boosters.

          • momofone

            Again, sources?

          • Sonja Henie

            Well, actually that was mumps, and it still showed the vaccine to be about 98% effective.

        • Monkey Professor for a Head

          Some kids at grade school may be unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons. Some kids previous vaccinations may no longer be effective due to immunocompromise which has occurred in the meantime. And a small portion of healthy vaccinated kids will not develop immunity.

          But you’ve made it pretty clear that you don’t give a damn about any of those people.

        • Nick Sanders

          Well, the chance was low, until antivaxxers started compromising herd immunity. We eliminated endemic measles from the country, and you fuckers keep bringing it back.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            That’s the thing. The only vector of measles (and, I think, rubella) is humans. If enough people vaccinated, we could be done with it: no more measles, no more vaccination, no risk. Except that people don’t vaccinate because of Wakefield’s nonsense and so we keep having endemic measles and can’t risk stopping.

        • lunasea

          Oh, you mean like my son’s best friend who is recovering from CANCER and is in remission and has no immune system? He’s 12, btw. He had ALL his vaccinations but now they do him no good.

          Oh, I bet you’re the type that thinks the vaccines caused the cancer. You people make me sick.

          And yes, I am 100% up to date on my vaccines, as well as my husband and both sets of parents, and both of my sibling in laws. Time to move the goal posts….

          • Diet dee

            Keep him home and get him a Xbox while he recovers. Then vaccinate him again I’d you wish

          • Nick Sanders

            What did I just say about not having it both ways?!

            People with HIV and Cancer drink take the subway and travel amongst the unwashed masses all the time

            How?! How did you manage to shove your head this far up your ass?

          • Sonja Henie

            Talk about compassion!

          • lunasea

            Oh, you mean the FOUR YEARS he has been fighting cancer, he should have just stayed home and played video games? Are you a fucking idiot or what? He is entitled to an education. My son can’t bring a PBJ to school for lunch when not a single kid in the 1500 has a peanut allergy, but 50% of the school can be unvaxxed and bring measles (100% of the kids who caught it were unvaxxed as was Patient Zero) and whooping cough (again, 100% of the kids who caught it were unvaxxed as was Patient Zero) and that’s OK?

            I’m an Atheist, but now hoping their truly is a Hell, because people like you need to be sent there.

          • guest

            And if I get cancer next year, am I supposed to stay inside for months (maybe years) until my immune system has recovered and I’ve been re-vaccinated? Are you going to pay my expenses during this time when I cannot work? And if you pay my expenses, how will you ensure my employer holds my position for me? While I’m immunocompromised, should my husband and my children also be quarantined? Or just move out?

          • Roadstergal

            So, anyone undergoing cancer should be kept in strict quarantine, for all the years they’re in treatment. Likewise, anyone with an autoimmune disease, like lupus, who is on treatment that dampens the immune system should stay in a bubble for… their entire lives, you’re saying. And babies, and old people – don’t let them out into the world.

            Because the alternative of keeping you and yours up-to-date on vaccinations is just too much of a burden.

          • demodocus

            no, no, only the strong survive! C’mon, that’s why we’re all such ubermenchen compared to the Hittites!

          • Roadstergal

            That’s true. Suffering through preventable disease makes you big and strong, like eating your vegetables does. And getting vaccinated makes you autistic, like rubella… oh, wait.

          • Bombshellrisa

            What about people who received an organ transplant and are on medications so their bodies won’t reject it? Those people are on those meds for life.

        • Azuran

          Because everyone around you is f***ing vaccinated you dumbass.
          And children too young to be vaccinated will often still be in contact with the outside world. They go to the doctors, mother’s might want to take a walk through the park with their baby. They might have older children who go to school or have friends coming over.

        • MI Dawn

          Yeah, and that’s because WE VACCINATE AGAINST MEASLES so in most places herd/community immunity protects the rest who aren’t.

          • Diet dee

            So what difference would a few more unvaccinated kids make? About 10% of people don’t respond to the vaccine anyway.

          • Nick Sanders

            Because there is a fucking threshold to maintain herd immunity! How many times does this have to be explained? If the number of immune people is above the threshold, the disease flounders and infection rates plummet, below the threshold and it carries on it’s merry way among the vulnerable population. For measles the threshold is extremely high, because of it’s high contagiousness.

            And 10% (more like 8%) don’t develop immunity from the first shot. Which is one of the reasons we added a second shot, it greatly decreases the number of people who don’t develop immunity. The other is that it ensures that immunity lasts.

          • Sonja Henie

            The actual number is 5% that don’t respond to a first dose. Take those 5 percent, revaccinate them, and 5% of that 5% don’t respond. That’s why we give two doses. At that point, about 97-98% are protected. I will point out that 2-3% of kids in a large school, say a 2000 student high school, is 40-60 susceptible vaccinated kids. Add 200 (10% who aren’t vaccinated) and that’s a lot of kids. When exposed, 90% of them will get measles.

          • Roadstergal
          • MI Dawn

            Look. You’ve already proven you have psychopathic tendencies, not caring about anyone else but yourself. Do you need to hang around and continue to show what a worthless uncaring member of the human race you are?

          • Heidi

            Seriously! She refuses to even process anything we tell her, spouting out very refutable “arguments,” and she surely isn’t convincing any of us. At first, I thought she has to be a troll since everything she says is so stupid and heartless, but I looked at her Disqus profile, and well, she is either as heartless and stupid as she’s been on here or way too committed to this troll persona. What is she really hoping to accomplish?

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            The more protection the better? Or do you think that if protection is not 100% then it’s not worth having?

        • Ardea

          This is a really useful graphic that explains the probability of infection in different communities with different rates of vaccination. You might find it informative.

          http://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2015/feb/05/-sp-watch-how-measles-outbreak-spreads-when-kids-get-vaccinated

        • Daycare.

    • Sonja Henie

      Anti-vax 101! Knock off this “gotcha” stuff.

    • Anonymous

      Yeah? Tell that to someone that has their immune system weakened by HIV, Cancer, or one of the myriad of other ailments that obliterates your immune system.

      • corblimeybot

        You are a person of empathy and reason. That’s why you made this comment.

        Unfortunately, Diet dee is a person who thinks that people with compromised immune systems are inferior specimens, and should sequester themselves from society so he doesn’t have to be reminded of them.

        • momofone

          And certainly none of those things would ever apply to Diet dee. S/he is far too healthy a specimen to ever have a compromised immune system.

      • Diet dee

        People with HIV and Cancer drink take the subway and travel amongst the unwashed masses all the time

        • Nick Sanders

          Which is the point. We need to make sure herd immunity is secure, so that we are not exposing them to diseases that could kill them.

          For fuck’s sake, stop trying to have it both ways! Do you think we’re so stupid we’ve forgotten about your comments about how demodocus’s newborn and sister are not going to school and all that needs to be done is to “avoid sick kids”?

    • Daleth

      Measles s hardly a dead sentence in the USA.

      A woman in Washington state died in last year’s outbreak:
      http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/02/measles-death-us/

      But let’s assume it’s true that probably no one would die in the US from a measles outbreak. Do you really think you have the right to put people in the hospital and inflict weeks of absolute physical misery on them? Really? Just because of your beliefs about vaccines, you have the right to do that to people?!

      • Diet dee

        Vaccines cause death and brain damage all the time where is the outrage over that? The heavier the vaccine schedule for more damage. Why sacrifice the well-being healthy for the sick. This poor woman was already medically frail the next flu season could have taken her out.

        • Roadstergal

          “Vaccines cause death and brain damage all the time”

          Citation needed… basic biological plausibility needed…

          • Diet dee

            Vaccines have associated with brain inflammation since the 1970s, when the swine flu vaccine was administered en mass people got Gulliane Barre syndrome and 25 deaths

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Firstly Guillan-Barre generally does not involve brain inflammation. It affects the peripheral nervous system.

            Secondly, what was the rate of guillan-barre in people who received the vaccine, and how did it compare to the previous rate of guillan-barre in a similar population. Without that information, your claims are useless.

          • Roadstergal

            If you’re talking about Guillain-Barre, it’s not brain inflammation.

            G-B is associated pretty strongly with actual influenza infection, not strongly with vaccination – the risk varies from non-significant to barely significant across countries, and in Europe, CI crosses 1. Even if this association turns out to be real, which is a big question mark, it remains orders of magnitude safer than risking influenza infection (on G-B alone, not even counting the way more common causes of death from influenza infection), which is why I get the seasonal influenza vaccine every year.
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X15006349

            What other misinformation do you have lined up?

          • Beth

            hi – I’m an actual neurologist. Guillain Barre has nothing to do with brain inflammation whatsoever. It has to do with the peripheral nerves. And it’s not fatal unless it’s extremely badly mismanaged by doctors. As you were.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            I would also point out that Guillain-barre is quite rare. In my 6 years of working in internal medicine, I only saw one case of it (which was scary but thankfully the patient survived). Influenza is far far more common. I’ve seen multiple patients become very sick, and even die, due to influenza. The elderly were the worst affected, but I have also seen young healthy people be affected. I’ll always remember waiting anxiously with one previously healthy 35 year old man as he struggled to breathe despite being given 100% oxygen via mask whilst we waited for an ICU bed. When he had a CT of his chest later, both lungs were filled with pneumonia throughout. Thankfully he survived, but he came very close to dying.

          • Diet dee

            Thanks bit I was highlight IMG what could be observed when vaccinations are done all at once. In the case of the swine flu it seems that the treatment was worse than the outbreak. Today we are doing the same thing by loading up on more vaccines. Now we are asking pregnant women in get vaccines.

          • Daleth

            The great irony here is that the REASON pregnant women really need to get these shots is because antivaxxers like yourself have “inspired” many gullible people not to get vaccinated. As a result, pertussis outbreaks now happen regularly, and infants regularly die. Getting the pertussis and flu shots during pregnancy passes some protection along to your newborn in the earliest months when they’re too young to be vaccinated themselves.

            If adults would be responsible and get their pertussis boosters, and get the pertussis shot for their own kids, pregnant women wouldn’t need to get the shot to protect their babies.

            That said, there’s nothing wrong with getting it. I did; my twins were fine.

          • Diet dee

            Actually the newer pertussis vaccines is less effective than older one. however older vaccine had more side effects.

          • Daleth

            Actually the newer pertussis vaccines is less effective than older one. however older vaccine had more side effects.

            That’s true: the pertussis vaccine is safer now because it’s purposely manufactured to be weaker. That makes it safer, but also means you need more doses in the first place to get full protection, and boosters to maintain it.

            So, back to the point: it’s perfectly safe for pregnant women and their babies, but the reason they even need to get it is that antivaxxers, by refusing to get the shot for their kids or to get boosters for themselves, are causing outbreaks that kill babies too young to be vaccinated.

            If you would prefer a world in which pregnant women didn’t have to get the pertussis shot, well then, get your boosters, get the shot for your kids, and encourage everyone you know to get it too.

          • Diet dee

            nope more boosters wont help the vaccine become more effective against the other strains of the virus. vaccinating pregnant women just sells more vaccines and is the name of the game. Soon vaccines booster will be recommended every other year.

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Since when is pertussis a virus?

          • Nick Sanders

            Since when did @dietdee:disqus care about facts?

          • So?

          • Diet dee

            More boosters will not protect the population just poison us in new ways. Autoimmune diseases will skyrocket and you friend from other countries will wonder why is everyone in The US so sick? Even OTC medications can make you sick if you take them too long

          • Nick Sanders

            We’ve been vaccinating for decades. If autoimmune diseases were going to skyrocket because of vaccines, they’d have done it by now. They haven’t.

          • Centuries, even.

          • Diet dee

            Look up peanut allergies and asthma. It already happened

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            Asthma
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14646381

            Peanut allergies can be triggered by vaccine ingredients. There is peanut based carrier oil in vaccines which if combine with an adjuvant will induce allergies is some people. If your immune system kills , how is that not an autoimmune disease?
            https://ddrblog.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/peanut-allergy-epidemic-what-everyone-needs-to-know/

          • swbarnes2

            Where is your EVIDENCE that vaccine have actually trigger peanut allergies? Someone who rants about toxins and rampant fungal infections saying that MAYBE there could be cross-reactivity doesn’t count.

          • Nick Sanders

            An autoimmune disease is a pathological state arising from an abnormal immune response of the body to substances and tissues that are normally present in the body.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune_disease

            Your body’s immune system protects you from disease and infection. But if you have an autoimmune disease, your immune system attacks healthy cells in your body by mistake.

            https://medlineplus.gov/autoimmunediseases.html

            Autoimmune diseases refer to problems with the acquired immune system’s reactions. In an autoimmune reaction, antibodies and immune cells target the body’s own healthy tissues by mistake, signaling the body to attack them.

            http://www.niams.nih.gov/health_info/autoimmune/

            Unless you want to claim that peanuts are a part of the human body, a peanut allergy is not an autoimmune disease.

          • https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/14faaaf7812c84d485f88446ac4a367898b311461151558b514840a13b3ba1e4.png

            “Lower asthma rates among the vaccinated population”

            So….when is this autoimmune issue going to happen?

          • Diet dee

            A small study (the second one)conducted by scientist who get speaking fee money from GSK. (I’ll take a look at the others)

          • Diet Dee: I am so glad you appreciate the problems with Andrew Wakefield’s 12-kid study.

            “I’ll have a look at the others.” Start with the asthma one.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/14faaaf7812c84d485f88446ac4a367898b311461151558b514840a13b3ba1e4.png

          • 1)13,000 is not a “small” study when compared to say….12 kids or so.

            2a)Where is your evidence that the scientists got speaking fee from GSK?

            2b)Where is your evidence that that invalidates the data? Increasing skepticism is not the same thing as dismissing out of hand.

          • Diet dee

            1) true.
            2)I followed the link and read the observational study in the disclosure section.
            2b) just human nature. People not to bite the hand that feeds them.
            S. Lau has received research support from the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research , the German Research Foundation , the Obesity Competence Network , Symbiopharm Herborn , Germany, and Allergopharma and has received payment for lectures from Symbiopharm and GlaxoSmithKline

          • momofone

            Just to clarify, “human nature” does not equal evidence.

          • Diet dee

            Industry tends exagerate positive finding with creative math while not even bothering to publish unfavorable finding. I’m not saying that this is always the case but its possible.

          • Nick Sanders

            Minor quibble: that particular study is 1,300 not 13,000.

          • Nope, that’s a fair point, thanks. Will go fix the typo.

          • MaineJen

            Oh that is SUCH BS.

            You know what is associated with peanut allergies? Delaying the introduction of solid foods.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25705822

          • CSN0116
          • CSN0116

            …the horror, I know. But try to process it.

          • What’s the sample size?

          • Citation needed. Dose makes the poison, dear.

          • Citation needed.

          • Daleth

            Wow. It is astonishing how little you understand about vaccines. Why would you have strong opinions about something you don’t really even understand?

          • Diet dee

            this is why the vaccine doesnt work as well
            http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/features/whooping-cough-rising-despite-new-vaccine

            if you want to know more from an alt med view of this
            http://drtenpenny.com/pertussis-vaccines-a-dangerous-failure/
            “Among adolescents (450 cases, 1246 controls) who received all acellular vaccines, overall Tdap VE (vaccine effectiveness) was 63.9%. Within 1 year of vaccination, VE was 73%. At 2 to 4 years post-vaccination, VE declined to 34%. CONCLUSIONS: Tdap protection wanes within 2 to 4 years. Lack of long-term protection after vaccination is likely contributing to increases in pertussis among adolescents.”

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Some protection from pertussis is still better than none.

            And to quote directly from the first link you posted “In the meantime, the best way to protect yourself and your kids from whooping cough is to follow the CDC’s recommended vaccine schedule. ”

            Now, please excuse me if I don’t take my healthcare advice from someone who thinks pertussis is a virus.

          • Diet dee

            If the protection from the vaccine is so low then herd immunity is a myth for whopping cough.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wrong. Herd immunity thresholds vary for different diseases.

          • Diet dee

            We are talking about pertussis in this case.

          • Nick Sanders

            Congratulations on reiterating what was already known. Now, kindly actually understand that what I wrote was meant to be taken in context, and not some sort of random trivia statement.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sonja Henie

            You are aware, my dear Diet dee, that prior to Tdap there was NO pertussis vaccine available for anyone over age 7?

          • Please link me to Dr Tenpenny’s research? Oh wait…no items found.

          • MaineJen

            Health Impact News…Dr Tenpenny…now you’re just having us on.

          • Diet dee

            Review the cited studies yourself

          • Daleth

            this is why the vaccine doesnt work as well
            http://www.webmd.com/children/.

            The link you posted doesn’t say that. It says three things are causing the surge in pertussis cases, and one of them is: “Parents who don’t let their kids get vaccines may be creating more opportunities for whooping cough outbreaks.”

            As for the vaccine “not working as well,” as I already explained that’s because it is safer than the old vaccine. It’s a tradeoff: either a super-effective vaccine that has more side effects, or an effective vaccine that requires boosters but has near-zero side effects. And it kind of seems like ya can’t win with antivaxxers: first they complain about side effects and adverse events, so we come up with much safer vaccines, and then the antivaxxers complain that the safer versions require boosters. It’s almost like they’re just looking for an excuse…

          • Diet dee

            I understand the trade off. But every outbreak will be blame on those who don’t vaccinate. Despite the fact that vaccines don’t prevent pertussis very well and not for very long.

          • Nick Sanders

            It certainly works better and longer than doing nothing.

          • Sonja Henie

            Exactly! And after years of pussy-footing around, health authorities are beginning to say that failure to vaccinate is an important factor in these pertussis epidemics.

          • Nick Sanders

            Doesn’t that right there disprove the narrative that vaccine manufacturers are unconcerned with the safety of their product and are just pumping them out to get more money?

          • momofone

            Oh, Nick. You and your LOGIC.

          • Citation needed.

            Citations are spelt differently from “Sites” for a reason.

            The citation should:

            -Be able to count from 0 to 100
            -Be able to avoid major logical fallacies
            -Be able to manage 5th grade maths
            -Be able to manage 9th grade chemistry.

            Health Impact News does not meet that criteria.

          • And how does that compare to natural immunity?

          • Nick Sanders

            One vaccine being associated is not all vaccines being associated.

          • Diet dee
          • Dear diet dee:

            Here’s a few citations on vaccine not causing autism.

            Albizzati, A., Moré, L., Di Candia, D., Saccani, M., Lenti, C. Normal concentrations of heavy metals in autistic spectrum disorders. Minerva Pediatrica. 2012. Feb;64(1):27-31 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22350041

            Afzal, MA., Ozoemena, LC., O’Hare, A., Kidger, KA., Bentley, ML., Minor, PD. Absence of detectable measles virus genome sequence in blood of autistic children who have had their MMR vaccination during the routine childhood immunization schedule of UK. Journal Medical Virology. 2006 May;78(5):623-30. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16555271

            Ahearn WH. What Every Behavior Analyst Should Know About the “MMR Causes Autism” Hypothesis. Archive of Behavior Analysis in Practice. 2010. Spring;3(1):46-50. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22479671

            Allan, GM., Ivers, N. The autism-vaccine story: fiction and deception? Canadian Family Physician. Oct 2010; 56(10): 1013. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2954080/

            Andrews, N., Miller, E., Grant, A., Stowe, J., Osborn, V., & Taylor, B. (2004). Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a retrospective cohort study in the United Kingdom does not support a causal association. Pediatrics, 114, 584-591. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15342825

            Andrews, N., Miller, E., Taylor, B., Lingam, R., Simmons, A., Stowe, J., Waight, P. Recall bias, MMR and autism. Archives of Disease in Childhood. Dec 2002; 87(6): 493–494. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1755823/pdf/v087p00493.pdf

            Baird, G., Pickles, A., Simonoff, E., Charman, T., Sullivan, P., Chandler, S., Loucas, T., Meldrum, D., Afzal, M., Thomas, B., Jin, L., Brown, D. Measles vaccination and antibody response in autism spectrum disorders. Archives of Disease in Childhood. 2008 Oct;93(10):832-7. doi: 10.1136/adc.2007.122937. Epub 2008 Feb 5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18252754

            Berger, BE., Navar-Boggan, AM., Omer, SB. Congenital rubella syndrome and autism spectrum disorder prevented by rubella vaccination–United States, 2001-2010. BMC Public Health. 2011 May 19;11:340. doi: 10.1186/1471-2458-11-340. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21592401

            Black, C., Kaye, JA. Relation of childhood gastrointestinal disorders to autism: nested case-control study using data from the UK General Practice Research Database. British Medical Journal. 2002; 325(7361):419-21. http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.325.7361.419

            Bower, H. New research demolishes link between MMR vaccine and autism. British Medical Journal. 1999. Jun 19;318(7199):1643. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116011/

            Chen, W., Landau, S., Sham, P., & Fombonne, E. (2004). No evidence for links between autism, MMR and measles virus. Psychological Medicine, 34(3), 543-553. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15259839

            Do you see the idea?

        • momofone

          We hear your outrage. Unfortunately we have yet to see your sources.

        • Nick Sanders

          I am flabbergasted. I don’t know how you manage, but your comments just keep getting dumber.

        • Daleth

          Vaccines cause death and brain damage all the time where is the outrage
          over that? The heavier the vaccine schedule for more damage.

          Yeah, no. None of that is true.

          This poor woman was already medically frail the next flu season could have taken her out.

          So it was okay for some narcissistic moron to kill her? That’s literally what you’re saying. And BTW, “could have” is very different from “would have.” She could also have been hit by a bus. So what? That doesn’t make it ok to kill her yourself.

    • *sigh*

      The answer to this question is found in the very basics of how vaccines work. If you have to ask that question…you haven’t done your research.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4bd293d06bd8970cec4bb4aae8ad079f5737c7291394e3d84b20925eac163d27.jpg

      • Diet dee

        The vaccinated are 90% immune so suck it up already

        • momofone

          You throw around numbers like baseballs, but seem short on the citations. You’re making this shit up from thin air.

        • Azuran

          So, even if your number was true, 1/10 could still get the disease if they were exposed to it. 10% of all children is a lot of kids. And with as many children being sick, you can bet that the number of deaths is going to rise.

        • What is 100-90, diet dee?

        • demodocus

          my daughter can’t *be* vaccinated for another 10 months

          • Diet dee

            Breast feed

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            The majority of those who died from vaccine preventable disease throughout history were breastfed. Many were babies who were still being breastfed at around the time of their death. Breastfeeding is not magic and does not give anywhere near the level of protection that vaccination does.

            And before anyone accuses me of being anti breastfeeding or a formula shill, I’m typing this with my left hand as my right arm is busy supporting my sons head as he breastfeeds.

          • Diet dee

            For decades the vaccine preventable diseases had become milder as the living conditions have improved. 100 years ago pertussis kills thousands but, death decreased even before vaccines were in widespread use. Assuming that you are healthy, breastfeeding will be better than formula. Many vaccines don’t protect us as well as originally thought. You could be vaccinated but not protected.

          • “You could be vaccinated but not protected.” Um? THIS IS WHAT WE’VE BEEN TELLING YOU.

            Non sero-converters need the herd too.

            Polio’s “mildness” had a lot more to do with that little invention called an iron lung.

          • Diet dee

            Most polio is without symptoms about 1℅ results in some form or paralysis. The number one source of paralytic polio in India is polio vaccine.

          • corblimeybot

            Are you still here? Can you shit your pants explosively somewhere else?

          • Charybdis

            True, just because you catch polio, it does not guarantee you will get the paralytic variety. But you don’t know until it is damn near too late unless you have a hospital with iron lungs (in the old days) or ventilators to breathe for you while you are paralyzed.
            Kind of like saying the flu is a “mild, upper respiratory illness” and that people don’t die from it.

            That doesn’t mean that you can/should skip the polio vaccine.

            http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/polio/basics/symptoms/con-20030957

            Although polio can cause paralysis and death, the vast majority of people who are infected with the poliovirus don’t become sick and are never aware they’ve been infected with polio.

            Nonparalytic polio

            Some people who develop symptoms from the poliovirus contract nonparalytic polio — a type of polio that doesn’t lead to paralysis (abortive polio). This usually causes the same mild, flu-like signs and symptoms typical of other viral illnesses.

            Signs and symptoms, which generally last one to 10 days, include:

            Fever

            Sore throat

            Headache

            Vomiting

            Fatigue

            Back pain or stiffness

            Neck pain or stiffness

            Pain or stiffness in the arms or legs

            Muscle weakness or tenderness

            Meningitis

            Paralytic polio

            In rare cases, poliovirus infection leads to paralytic polio, the most serious form of the disease. Paralytic polio has several types, based on the part of your body that’s affected — your spinal cord (spinal polio), your brainstem (bulbar polio) or both (bulbospinal polio).

            Initial signs and symptoms of paralytic polio, such as fever and headache, often mimic those of nonparalytic polio. Within a week, however, signs and symptoms specific to paralytic polio appear, including:

            Loss of reflexes

            Severe muscle aches or weakness

            Loose and floppy limbs (flaccid paralysis), often worse on one side of the body

            Why the oral (live) polio vaccine is used in vaccination campaigns around the world.

            OPV produces antibodies in the blood to all three types of poliovirus. In the event of infection, these antibodies protect against paralysis by preventing the spread of wild poliovirus to the nervous system.

            OPV also produces a local, mucosal immune response in the mucous membrane of the intestines. In the event of infection, these mucosal antibodies limit the replication of the wild poliovirus inside the intestine. This intestinal immune response to OPV is thought to be the main reason why mass campaigns with OPV can rapidly stop person-to-person transmission of wild poliovirus.

            Advantages

            OPV is administered orally. It can be given by volunteers and does not require trained health workers or sterile injection equipment.

            The vaccine is relatively inexpensive. In 2011, the cost of a single dose for public health programmes in developing countries was between 11 and 14 US cents.

            OPV is safe, effective, and induces long-lasting immunity to all three types of poliovirus.

            For several weeks after vaccination, the vaccine virus replicates in the intestine, is excreted in the faeces, and can be spread to others in close contact. This means that in areas where hygiene and sanitation are poor, immunization with OPV can result in the “passive” immunization of people who have not been directly vaccinated.

            Disadvantages

            Although OPV is safe and effective, in extremely rare cases (approx. 1 in every 2.7 million first doses of the vaccine) the live attenuated vaccine virus in OPV can cause paralysis. In some cases it is believed that this vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) may be triggered by immune deficiency.

            The extremely low risk of VAPP is well known and accepted by most public health programmes in the world because without OPV, hundreds of thousands of children would be crippled every year.

            A second disadvantage is that very rarely the virus in the vaccine may genetically change and start to circulate among a population. These viruses are known as circulating vaccine-derived polioviruses (cVDPV).

            Safety

            OPV is an extremely safe vaccine. All OPV used in supplementary immunization activities for the Global Polio Eradication Initiative is pre-qualified by WHO and procured through UNICEF. In 2006, WHO issued a statement to affirm the quality and safety of OPV.Efficacy

            OPV is highly effective against all three types of wild poliovirus. When this vaccine is used however, there is competition among the three viruses to cause immunity, which results in protection but not with equal efficiency for each type: it is most effective against type 2.

            One dose of OPV produces immunity to all three poliovirus serotypes in approximately 50% of recipients. Three doses produce immunity in more than 95% of recipients. Immunity is long-lasting and probably life-long.

            Recommended use

            In most countries, OPV remains the vaccine of choice in routine immunization schedules and supplementary immunization activities.

            Where more than one type of wild poliovirus is circulating, OPV is epidemiologically and operationally the best vaccine to use because protection develops to each of the three types of polio virus.

          • Diet dee

            Seeing that we have a decent sewage treatment in the States I’m not too worried about polio

          • Nick Sanders

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal–oral_route#Examples

            Only the first of those is solved by a sewage treatment system.

          • Sonja Henie

            You are aware that polio incidence INCREASED as sanitation increased, both in the US and Europe?

            And I’ll point out that until rotavirus vaccine came out in 2006, virtually 100% of the population got a rotavirus infection from this fecal-orally spread virus. 2006!

          • Charybdis

            You’re then one who brought up India and the incidences of polio there. If you aren’t worried about those in the States, why are you bringing up India?

          • Diet dee

            Its where we are headed with vaccines. Overtreatment that will lead to more damage than the diseases that we shouldn’t be scared of.

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove it.

          • momofone

            Source? Oh wait, let me guess–“human nature”?

          • Diet dee

            No the CDC
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm
            Polio paralyzes/harm less than 1% of the infected.

          • Nick Sanders

            Again, care to tell us how much is one percent in an outbreak involving tens or hundreds of thousands of people?

            Also, some outbreaks have much higher rates of paralysis. The 1952 outbreak had a paralysis rate of approximately 40%.
            http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/diseases-and-vaccines#EVT_100309
            https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-10942759/a-new-challenge-for-former-polio-patients

          • Nick Sanders

            How much is 1% of an outbreak involving tens or even hundreds of thousands?

          • Diet dee

            I assume you can do math, although according to the CDC it’s less than 1%. But with sewage treatment and pasteurized milk I don’t think any massive polio out breaks are going to happen. Anand. Don’t get me started on the DDT connection to “POLIO”

          • Nick Sanders

            Ok, I won’t get you started on your totally bogus conspiracy theory. But it is nice to confirm you can’t do math or history.

          • 1% = no big deal.

            Less than 1 in a million = terriblebadomigodacoplyse.

            Surely even you see how silly this is?

          • Diet dee

            1% of low incident disease. But you we vaccinate millions of kid several times before age 4 with neurological toxins to prevent a few acute illnesses

          • And your evidence that they are neurologically toxic at exposures achievable by routine exposures would be *what* exactly? You do actually have some, don’t you?

            1% of low incident disease…except that you’re doing your best to change that whether you like it or not. And no, not to prevent a few acute illnesses – to prevent near-universal illness in the case of measles.

            Where are the extra neurologically damaged kids?

            Toxins best describes all-natural immunity to diptheria and pertussis.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/29caa8b67460692ece417e17b1c050466879eb42ebcff7f3720d50b0722c9212.jpg

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8988160b0ef8678b1253af43add2ff6030d29d1fbd8f61601b844dffcb78290.png
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/537c403e44d24a431256f772e0232f14ea0c61d0744724c3cec8f4f93a8afad0.png

          • Nick Sanders

            Measles is not a low incidence disease. It has an R0 greater than the freaking common cold.

          • Citation needed for that.

          • Nick Sanders

            The diseases didn’t become milder, medicine became better at keeping them from killing people. This is not the same thing. Ventilators keep people breathing when their lung don’t work, ice baths lower massive fevers, frequent sponge baths prevent skin ulcers from become septic, etc.

          • Diet dee

            High poverty, poor sanitation,poor hygiene and nutritionare all vulnerabilities to the population. When these are addressed diseases were less deadly

          • Nick Sanders

            And yet, even with the good sanitation, plentiful food, and relative wealth of America, 25% of people who get measles will end up in a hospital.

          • Diet dee

            Seeing that measles incident so low I think the population can handle it

          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            It’s low because of vaccination!

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee

            The death rate for measles and host of other vaccine preventable diseases were in decline for 50 or so years before the vaccines were in use. Some vaccines don’t deserve as much credit as they currently get. If the number of measles cases if only a few hundred a year why vaccinate everyone for such a rare disease.

          • Wren

            It is only a rare disease because most people are vaccinated for it. Stop vaccinating and there will be many more cases per year. How is this difficult to understand?

          • Wren

            As for the declining death rate, have you ever considered looking into changes in medicine during first half of the 20th century? Antibiotics, which could prevent opportunistic infections of ill children, were discovered and developed. Nah, that couldn’t have helped, right? Heck, aspirin was developed at the very end of the 19th century. Nope. That couldn’t help measles, right?

          • Wren

            Children’s Tylenol hit the market in the 1950s and is still often used in measles treatment. Medicine in 1913 (50 years before measles vaccination began) was not identical to now or that of 1963, but it was certainly an improvement on a century or even decade earlier and there were many developments in the 50 years. Ignoring those in favour of the measles just deciding to be a milder illness is ridiculous.

          • Diet dee

            Historically, the dominant and obvious fact is that most, if not all, major communicable diseases have become less serious in all developed countries for 50 years or more. Whooping cough is no exception. It has behaved in this respect like measles and similarly to scarlet fever and diphtheria, in each of which at least 80% of the total decline in mortality, since records began to be kept in the United Kingdom in 1860, occurred before any vaccine or antimicrobial drugs were available and 90% or more before there was any national vaccine progamme.” 563

            Medicine help but we also improved our health by cleaning up our environment before these medications were used widespread.

          • Wren

            And yet vaccine preventable diseases still killed, especially children.
            The very best way to prevent death from these diseases is to prevent the diseases themselves. The very best way to do that is vaccination.

          • Diet dee

            And now these injury from these diseases is so rare that the side effects of vaccines may rival the damage caused by the disease.

          • Wren

            Even if that were the case, that current vaccine injury rates rival current damage from the disease, that is still a ridiculous argument against vaccines because it is only the case because vaccines have so dramatically reduced the incidence of disease. Stop vaccinating and the disease incidence, and concurrent damage, comes rushing back.

          • Diet dee

            If the disease has a large non human reservoir that would be plausible. Most of these diseases are temporary, chicken pox, pertussis measles but the side effects of vaccine injury are chronic and life changing autism, allergies and autoimmune disease.

          • Wren

            Autism? How damned many studies are needed showing this is not the case?
            Rubella in pregnancy is believed to be a cause though, so not vaccinating could certainly lead to autism.
            Allergies? Autoimmune disease?
            Evidence please.
            Yes, if one survives a VPD without long term complications, then it is indeed temporary.
            Death is generally permanent and pretty darned life-changing. Deafness, blindness, brain damage…those are all pretty life-changing.
            Even though it was temporary, barring the scarring, my son’s terrible and painful case of chicken pox at 6 has left him hugely in favour of vaccinations. I can’t think of any time I’d say, “Yeah, just let my child suffer for a week or two when I can prevent it, because it’s just temporary.”

          • Nick Sanders
          • Charybdis

            The diseases themselves have not become less virulent, they still kill people. Supportive care has gotten better as has hygiene associated with caring for the sick. Other medical advances have helped (IV’s to battle dehydration and medications to help treat secondary infections as well as the symptoms themselves, disinfectants to clean surfaces and wash clothes and linens, etc), but the diseases are not “weaker” or less virulent than in times past.

            Understanding germ theory and how illnesses spread helped, as did improving sanitation in water quality issues, food handling issues, bathing regularly, using soap, washing your hands often, quarantining the sick, limiting contact with the sick and anything the sick touched or used all helped reduce the number of deaths, but people still caught the diseases and suffered with them.

            Vaccination was, and still is, the BEST and MOST EFFECTIVE way to combat illnesses.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Diet dee
          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, I sure am convinced by a bunch of contextless charts on a page that hosts Gary Null and HIV denialism.

          • Azuran

            again, the disease is so rare because most people ARE VACCINATED you idiot.
            Without the vaccine, almost everyone would get at some point or another during their childhood, just like they did before vaccination and just like we all got chicken pox before there was a vaccine.

          • “Assuming that you are healthy” and why are you ASSUMING that?

            You haven’t yet explained how single fathers or families headed by two-men couples are supposed to protect their babies?

          • Diet dee

            They can take solace in fact that these diseases are rare and often non fatal.

          • “These diseases are rare”! Exactly because people vaccinate their kids. Excuse me if I’d like to keep the diseases rare – in fact, let’s try for eradicated in some cases!

            You cannot use the success of vaccines to argue that they don’t work.

            “Hire a wet nurse.” Uh-uh. That’s what people did before formula – children still died early and often.

          • Diet dee

            I never said vaccines didn’t work. I do believe that there effectiveness is overrated. Measles is death sentence in the slums ofSudan but so much in 1st world country like the USA. The poor of Sudan have to deal with poor nutrition, filthy drinking water and parasites. When they get measles then death is real possibility. But when people without those challenges get measles it’s not so dire.

          • rosewater1

            Tell that to a parent whose child DOES die from measles. Or a child who suffers the disease needlessly. Your blithe dismissal of these HUMAN BEINGS is, to put it mildly, troubling.

          • Diet dee

            The other side. Of the story is all the vaccine damaged kids with autism. Most of which will never live an independent life. I’ll take my chances with measles

          • Azuran

            Wow, you are actually still stuck at the vaccines cause autism level? Dude, that claim is long dead. And you expect us to take you seriously?

          • Diet dee

            CDC whitsle blower just making it up then?
            Was Verstraten massaging the data just for practice?
            Thats 2 CDC cover ups that we heard of.
            3 you want to include Simpsonwood.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Azuran

            Pffff. Do you also believe in chemtrails? Or that the tetanus vaccine was used to sterilise people in Kenya?

          • Nick Sanders

            All zero of them.

          • Diet dee

            I guess we are having a genetic epidemic or we suddenly noticed a large number of kids didn’t talk anymore

          • Kerlyssa

            yep. kids who were classed as retarded and institutionalized or kept home in past decades are now diagnosed autistic and given resources. increase in diagnoses != increase in percentage of people w autism

          • Nick Sanders

            Diagnoses have been refined. The rate has not changed.

          • Azuran

            Funny also how the prevalence of ‘hysteria’ amongst women suddenly dropped so much. It’s crazy what sanitation can do. Yep, nothing to do with the enormous advances in mental health we have done in the past 50 years.

          • Diet dee

            the advances in mental health have sent the ill from the back of the psych ward to front of the homeless shelter. Psychology has almost no objective tools.

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t blame medicine for the actions of politicians.

          • Azuran

            Never said its perfect. But it has improved a lot. And just as ‘hysteria’ is not no longer a disease, autism became recognized as one.

          • More like we expanded the definition of autism to include kids who talk in an odd, formal, stilted manner too.

          • corblimeybot

            I don’t know how you get through life, when you’re apparently incapable of either learning or rational thought.

          • Charybdis

            Yeah, with the absolutely overwhelming number of ZERO of them. Visibly underwhelmed, we are. Flaunt your privilege some more, why don’t you?

            Speaking like Yoda, I am. Not sure why…

          • The other side of the story is bullshit then.

          • And your evidence this belief is founded on is what, exactly?

          • Diet dee

            The decades long drop in mortality/morbidity for many of these diseases before vaccines were used. After a vaccine is in widespread used then diagnostic criteria is often adjusted with artificially inflated the effectiveness of vaccines

          • Citation for that is what?

          • Azuran

            Funny how you people trust our medical system to treat your VPD and prevent you to die from them with their advances in treatment. But don’t trust them when they tell you that vaccines are safe and effective.

            Sure, if we stopped vaccination, most kids would still turn out fine. But a few hundreds would die every single year, and every single one of those death would have been preventable. And almost every single kid out there would have to go through the pain of having freaking measles. For what? There is absolutely no reason to let them get sick.
            And that’s not even counting the economic cost of all those sick kids. With parents having to take days off of work, medication cost, doctor visits, hospital stays. Adjusted for inflation, Measles alone was estimated to cost the equivalent of 140 millions annually in my country.

          • Nick Sanders

            There was no drop in morbidity before the vaccines. Please stop lying.

          • Nick Sanders

            A 1 in 4 hospitalization rate is quite dire.

          • Please show us the morbidity decline prior to vaccines graph then.

          • Diet dee

            the book Dissolving Illusions addresses this topic you can find the charts online.

          • Azuran

            Did you also read that vaccines cause autism in that book?

          • Diet dee

            no

          • swbarnes2

            No, YOU can look up the footnotes from that book to find the source of the information.

            And you do realize that everyone else already has this bookmarked, right?

            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-didnt-save-us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/

          • Nick Sanders
          • Just link to the charts showing morbidity dropping,

          • Nick Sanders

            A one in four hospitalization rate is quite dire.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            For people to have faith in vaccines they must have faith in those responsible for the safety of them. Now are you going to refute my comments about the facts surrounding the Wakefield non fraud?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How much do you get paid each time you leave an anti- vax comment?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            I do this for free.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Show me where one of my comments is against vaccination. The truth is against nothing.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How much are Wakefield and Mercola paying you?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Normal happy talking child goes in and gets the MMR vaccine.
            Within two weeks the child begins to,
            headbang, intense full body contractions, loses all speech, every word, stops sleeping, endless screaming, gastrointestinal problems, unexplained illness, permanently and severely disabled for the rest of their life. No explanation from Dr.s, just looks of horror like we don’t know what happened. Why aren’t people told about VICP? Why don’t Dr.s file vaccine adverse event reports for autism when there is clearly no other explanation?
            I guess you could ask Wakefield and Dr. Bob Sears that question.
            Are you one of the people that thinks this is a made up story?
            I have solid evidence and my own eye witness testimony that can assure you it is not.

          • Right – so where is your evidence the vaccine caused it? I trust it is on some basis more robust than a Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

          • I already did.

            I explained the consequences of that and you claimed it was the stuff of fantasy.

          • Canada would tell us. You do realize they have a financial incentive to do so, right? #FollowTheMoney.

          • Roadstergal

            “You could be vaccinated but not protected.”

            And you are always breastfed but not protected from VPDs, if unvaccinated. The varying degrees of mucosal-specific IgA in breast milk does nothing for VPDs.

            “Assuming that you are healthy”

            If you have a very broad definition of ‘healthy’ that includes not only ‘free of disease’ but also ‘able and desiring to produce sufficient milk of sufficient quality to fully nourish an infant that is able to extract that milk,’ than yes, but you’ve cut ‘healthy’ numbers way down.

          • Doesn’t her broad definition of healthy exclude physiologically sound single fathers? And the same for two-men couples with kids for that matter.

          • Nick Sanders

            And adoptive parents of any sex.

          • Thanks.

            What # of unanswered questions are we at with Diet Dee?

          • Sonja Henie

            Oh, what BS! As has been explained to you, modern medicine has learned how to treat these diseases better. Deaths from measles had more or less leveled off in the 50s, shortly before the vaccine came out, and the death rate in outbreaks these days seems the same as it was then.

            VERY little antibody is passed on through breast feeding. http://thescientificparent.org/passive-immunity-101-will-breast-milk-protect-my-baby-from-getting-sick/ (Cute picture of a dad feeding baby.) Babies got sick long before formula feeding became available.

            Most vaccines have efficacy levels in the 90+ percent range.

          • Diet dee
          • Sonja Henie

            All but diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis give long term, presumably lifetime immunity.

          • Nick Sanders

            You’ll notice that “natural” immunity to pertussis is not life long either. How long immunity last depends on the disease, not the vaccine.

          • Sonja Henie

            Nor is “natural immunity” to tetanus.

          • Nick Sanders

            I thought there was no “natural immunity” to tetanus?

          • Sonja Henie

            Correct.

          • Wren

            Did you read any of that before citing it?
            Pertussis vaccination is good for 4-12 years generally, getting an infant through the most dangerous age for it, and then boosters top it up. This is why boosters have been added to the schedule.
            Pertussis immunity from infection is good for 4-20 years generally, so still not lifelong. Over a lifetime, multiple bouts of pertussis would be required to keep the immunity up, which defeats the whole point anyway, doesn’t it? And there is no protection during the particularly vulnerable early years, except that acquired through actually getting the disease.

          • Wren

            The diseases had become milder? Or perhaps medical advances had reduced the risk of death?

          • CSN0116

            Learn about the uselessness of passive immunity.

          • Diet dee
          • Diet Dee:

            -What is the sample size of that study?
            -Did the author receive any money to speak at breastfeeding conventions or anything?

            Diet Dee:

            -Please can you explain how single fathers are supposed to protect their babies?
            -How about families headed by two-men couples – how are they supposed to protect their babies?
            -The first time lactation failure rate for dairy cows (as in those things that are bred specifically to give milk) is ~10%, irrc. Again, dairy cows are specifically bred to give milk so what if demodcus can’t breastfeed?

          • Charybdis

            Doesn’t protect against measles or other diseases. The baby gets most of it’s early antibodies via the placenta. This is why pregnant women are encouraged to get the TDaP during pregnancy. Learn what passive immunity actually is and how it works.

            Breastmilk is not an everlasting, constantly morphing fountain of active immunity for your baby.

          • demodocus

            Totally prevented her brother from getting colds in his first 4 months. Oh, wait, despite being ebf, he had 3.

          • Heidi

            Breast milk doesn’t do anything for vaccine preventable illnesses. It barely does anything for colds and minor stomach bugs, but that’s the extent of its “magic.”

          • demodocus

            Been there, done that, kid still caught colds and developed croup, but boob milk is just totally awesome

          • Diet dee

            And they survived, my kids got sick to. life goes on

          • demodocus

            yes, mine survived. So did i when I caught scarlet fever and lost 50% of my hearing. I also survived my childhood asthma. Oh, and i was breastfed, too. My husband wasn’t lost due to his mom catching German measles in the first trimester, but no amount of breastmilk will cure congenital rubella.

          • Sonja Henie

            Won’t do any good for most VPDs.
            http://thescientificparent.org/passive-immunity-101-will-breast-milk-protect-my-baby-from-getting-sick/
            “This protection (via breast milk) is invaluable to a newborn, and is absolutely necessary in developing countries where access to clean water is problematic. However, it only protects against infection through their digestive tract; it does not provide bloodstream antibodies to protect against various vaccine-avoidable illnesses, which is something that only the IgGs provide (see above).

            So to answer our previous question,”why does my infant need any
            vaccines at all since she’s getting all the antibodies she needs from
            my breast milk”? The answer is, the antibodies we get from vaccinating
            ourselves against deadly illnesses aren’t the type that are transmitted
            through breast milk.”

          • swbarnes2

            There is also the obvious historical fact that for most of history just about everyone was exclusively breastfeeding for a long time, and babies still died of childhood diseases. Breastmilk just wasn’t magic enough to prevent fatal illnesses. And it still isn’t.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Not that useful, as one can guess from the killer epidemics before baby formula was invented. But useful for showing the narcissistic super-mommy character of so many anti vaxers

          • Wren

            Oh yes. That cures or prevents all, except for the many, many things it doesn’t.

          • Diet dee

            Breastfeeding is helpful. Chances are children will survive with or without it.

          • Wren

            How exactly is breastfeeding helpful in the case of a child too young to be vaccinated for measles?

          • Diet dee

            if mother had measles she could pass some protection on to the child. If she was vaccinated she may pass some protection also. But with less than 300 casse of measles a year how likely is amyone to come in contact with measles but less be harmed by it?

          • Wren

            Cite evidence please that breastfeeding will help to prevent measles up until the MMR can be given.

            And again, the only reason the incidence of measles is so low is vaccination! Stop vaccinating and it will soar back up.

          • Wren

            You do realise you are using the effectiveness of the measles vaccination to argue against measles vaccination, don’t you?

          • demodocus

            Chances are, yes, but chances are *far* goddamn higher that they’ll survive getting the goddamn vaccine. And then there’s the goddamn side effects like blindness and deafness. But then, I must be a goddamn untermensch and my parents should have just killed me when it became obvious that I was damaged, right?

          • Nick Sanders

            I know, Dee’s cavalier “Who cares about some deaths and disablements, as long as I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to” attitude drives me up a wall too.

          • Sonja Henie

            Good grief, we just went through this with you last night. BF doesn’t provide antibodies to anything but GI diseases.

          • So….

            How is a healthy single father supposed to protect his baby, according to you?

            How about two-men who have adopted a baby?

            Or adoptive parents of any sex?

            Come on, DD. These are simple questions since you’re the 99999999-experts-in-one-expert.

          • Diet dee

            ask the amish they managed to survive

          • Sigh.

            If people have 6 kids and 4 die but 2 live to adulthood and reproduce then they’ve been successful evolutionary.

            You can perform the same trick by having 4 first-degree relatives survive or 8 second-degree relatives.

          • sabelmouse

            altogether there are few of these. hardly a reason to take away true herd immunity.

          • corblimeybot

            I can’t wait to see your groundbreaking immunology work that make you think you can upend everything that medical science knows about herd immunity.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s already there.

          • Charybdis

            Do tell! Please provide links to your groundbreaking, (revolutionary, even!), exhaustive testing protocol and the conclusions drawn from these tests, so we can start sharing all this REVOLUTIONARY new data about immunology, giving you proper credit, of course, for being the one to discover, research, test and publish this data and corresponding conclusions.
            You’ll be famous!

            *waits expectantly*

          • sabelmouse

            please do hold your breath.

          • corblimeybot

            This is an acknowledgement you have absolutely nothing, right?

          • sabelmouse

            ooh! the old group attack!

          • Wren

            “True herd immunity”? You mean like vaccinating everyone who can be so the disease cannot get a foothold and come back?

          • sabelmouse

            no.

          • Wren

            Ah, so you are making up your own definitions for common phrases in the field like “herd immunity” then? You may need to be clear about those definitions if you are going to choose your own meanings.

          • sabelmouse

            i don’t. maybe you should read up on the actual definition.

          • Nick Sanders

            herd im·mu·ni·ty

            noun

            general immunity to a pathogen in a population based on the acquired immunity to it by a high proportion of members over time.

          • sabelmouse

            immunity/lasting immunity. not a given with vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            Lasting immunity comes from most vaccines, Sabel, with the exception of pertussis (the duration of immunity being slightly less with the vaccine than with the natural infection, which i limited from 6-20 years anyway)

          • sabelmouse

            lol, mikey, lol!

          • Nick Sanders

            Evidence please.

          • Wren

            I’m pretty clear on the actual definition: vaccinating a large proportion of the population (the “herd”) thereby reducing the spread of the disease.
            I cannot say what your definition is though.

          • She means “natural herd immunity.”

            Works fine if you don’t mind it being built on a foundation of tiny coffins.

          • The true herd immunity involved a lot more dead and injured children.

          • sabelmouse

            oh dear.

          • Exactly.

          • Diet dee

            Vitamin A supplements or cod liver oil. The disease is most harmful to those with the lowest vitamin A level

          • Heidi

            So to prevent death from measles load your child (who isn’t deficient in vitamin A to begin with) up on preformed vitamin A and possibly damage their liver or cause serious damage to their central nervous system! Sounds like a good idea to me.

          • Diet dee

            Or I could give them a sensible amount of the vitamin for there age/weight.

          • Heidi

            In our scenario of formula fed baby, baby is already getting a sensible amount of vitamin A.

          • corblimeybot

            Well, you’ve shown almost no understanding of anything medical and health-related, so you can see why Heidi might not trust your ability to accurately calculate safe pediatric doses of vitamin A.

          • rosewater1

            And you’ll know your child is deficient how? And how do you know what amount is needed? All this to avoid a shot.

          • demodocus

            formula is already supplemented

          • Diet dee

            Then there is little to worry about

          • demodocus

            no amount of milk, no matter the kind, can do diddly for measles

          • Azuran

            so you agree that your treatment is useless then. Because they are not deficient in Vit A.

          • Diet dee

            Fighting measles consumes a lot of vitamin A. High doses can reduce death.

          • Azuran

            Citation needed

          • Diet dee

            http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d5094
            What is already known on this topic

            Vitamin A is an essential nutrient; it must be obtained through diet
            In low and middle income countries, many people (especially children) do not eat enough vitamin A
            Vitamin A deficiency is related to vision problems and increased susceptibility to infectious disease and death
            WHO recommends vitamin A supplements for children, pregnant women, and breastfeeding mothers
            What this study adds

            There have been 43 trials of vitamin A for children aged 6 months to 5 years old, including about 215 633 children
            In low and middle income countries, vitamin A supplementation is associated with a 24% reduction in mortality
            Vitamin A supplementation might reduce mortality by preventing measles and diarrhoea; it also prevents blindness
            The evidence for vitamin A is compelling and clear; further trials comparing vitamin A with placebo would be unethical.

          • Azuran

            Vitamin A supplementation will be beneficial to people WITH ACTUAL VIT A DEFICIENCY
            We are not in a middle or low income country. Which is where your study apply. And I really doubt the studies authors are advocating that we replace vaccination with Vit A suplementation.

            You know what is much more effective than vitamin A in preventing measles mortality?
            The vaccine.

          • Diet dee

            I believe we discussing those who can’t get the vaccine yet. Also there are poor people even in rich countries like the USA. Maybe the immune comprised could benefit from some extra supplements.

          • Azuran

            Actually, we were discussing your belief that vaccines cause autism and that we should instead treat people with measles with Vit A instead of vaccinating.

            However, You are making stretches from things that are not related.
            Being deficient in any kind of nutrient is going to have a negative impact on your health.
            Doesn’t mean that giving more of it to someone who doesn’t have a deficiency is effective in any way. (BTW, my pregnancy book is telling me to avoid eating liver because it has too much Vit A)

            The immune compromised will not benefits from Vit A unless they are also Vit A deficient. (and in such a case, investing in providing them with healthier food alternative would help way more, since they are unlikely to be only deficient in Vit A)
            What you provided in your study only show something we all agreed on: Vit A deficiency can be bad.
            But that’s not what you were claiming. You said that Vit A was beneficial in treating measles. In such case, you have to find a study where they got kids without any Vit A deficiency who got measles, and treated them with additional Vitamin A
            (And as a bonus, also show that in the long term, those kids are healthier than those who just got vaccinated and avoided measles altogether)

          • Nick Sanders

            I’ve been wondering, why does an obvious Nurgalite have an Ultra Marine for an avatar?

          • Diet dee

            Good one!!

          • Irène Delse

            You’re mixing your vitamins. Cod liver oil is a source of vitamin D, not A. But neither can protect from vaccine-preventable diseases. For that, you need… vaccines. Yes, I know.

          • Diet dee

            http://www.who.int/elena/titles/bbc/vitamina_pneumonia_children/en/
            There are some mixed results see for yourself. But Cod liver does have both just check any bottle for yourself.

          • sabelmouse

            vit is not about preventing the illness but negative outcomes.

          • Yes. That’s the point.

            DD was asked to come up with an alternative way of preventing the illness.

          • sabelmouse

            which isn’t important when there is no negative outcome. in fact, having had it might be a positive outcome.

          • Yes, sabel, answering what you were asked is important.

          • sabelmouse

            are you still in school? are you confusing online commenting with assignments?

          • It’s called on-topic online commenting.

            Why don’t you answer?

          • sabelmouse

            my livelihood doesn’t depend on this and you’re spamming. just like mikey.

          • Report me to disqus as a spambot then.

            And your evidence for the shill gambit would be what?

          • Nick Sanders

            1 in 4 people who get measles will be hospitalized.

            http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

            I repeat, 1 in 4. And I’m going to keep repeating it until it sinks in.

          • Diet dee

            The small number of measles cases per year make that stat unimpressive. Even in the great outbreak of 2015 measles sent 150 nationwide to the hospital. Mainly due to the relative novelty of the disease.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Dear, that’s resistance. We’re talking about how to prevent it.

        • Sonja Henie

          You don’t understand vaccines well, do you? 90% efficacy means 90% of those vaccinated are sufficiently immune to prevent disease, not all the vaccinated are 90% immune. They’re not going to get 10% of a case.

    • Sonja Henie

      Your callousness is duly noted.

    • Mike Stevens

      Work on your grammar, and you won’t post any dead sentences, dietdee.

    • Sonja Henie

      There has not been a measles case in Mississippi for 23 years.

      • SlammoFandango

        Haha! Mississippi only just 3 years ago ratified the 13th Amendment, banning slavery….We should not really be all that surprised that the folks in Mississippi are okay with limiting freedom of choice when it comes to medical interventions or people being in control of their own bodies.

        YOU THINK MISSISSIPPI SHOULD BE A ROLE MODEL?

        Mississippi is a leader in teen pregnancy, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cigarette smoking, and apparently all the highly vaccinated kids in Mississippi’s schools have just a whole ton of trouble learning.

        Lots of other states haven’t seen any measles in years also….

        Mississippi? No Thank You.

        • Sonja Henie

          For immunization policy, yes.

  • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild

    These people are not “anti vaccine”. They are “pro plague”. And I’m glad people are pushing back against this backwards BS.

  • lunasea

    YES! I am in California and today was the first day of school. There were at least a dozen moms crying and arguing about why their precious 7th graders could not attend. I was doing my little happy dance and embarrassing my son. Victory!

    Now, if only they’d make it more firm, and make it that at every grade kids had to be fully vaxxed. Here’s hoping more legislation passes. Never thought I’d be jealous of Mississippi and West Virginia, but they have proper vaccination laws there.

    • T.

      You have shown an admirable restraint, IMHO.

      I would have cackled. Loudly.

      • lunasea

        The happy dance in full view of my son’s best friends AND the girl he’s crushing on. So while it wasn’t to the anti-vaxxers, my son now wants to be dropped off three blocks away so none of his classmates see me again. I have accomplished my goal as a mother.

    • momofone

      I’m from Mississippi. This is one of the rare instances I’m proud to say so.

      • lunasea

        I do not mean to insult Mississippi, I was there for two years while active duty and there are definitely some lovely areas and met some wonderful locals.

        • momofone

          I didn’t take it that way at all–I hope I didn’t come across as if I did. I say worse things about Mississippi on pretty much a daily basis. 🙂 The vaccine requirement really is one of the few things I’m proud of here.

    • Bugsy

      Congratulations!!! I wish we were where you guys are. My son is switching to a new preschool this year, and in the welcome information they stated something to the effect of: “You must provide a copy of your child’s immunization record. We fully recognize it is each parent’s choice on whether to vaccinate.” ARGH.

      • JGC

        It is their choice whether or not to attend, but if they’re requiring a copy of vaccination record but my guess is if it shows a parent has chosen not to vaccinate their child that child is not going to be attending class with your son.

        • Bugsy

          That’s what I would hope…we do have a fair number of crunchy folk around, though. (Metro Vancouver, BC)

  • Cyndi

    “Mandatory vaccinations involve a supreme violation of liberty, where agents of the state inject substances into someone’s body against his or her will.”

    Mandatory socialization with the unvaccinated involves a supreme violation of liberty, where the unscientific demands of a small, vocal, and largely uneducated minority uphold forced schooling and socialization of the medically fragile and those unable to vaccinate with others at high risk of carrying dangerous and possibly deadly diseases against his or her will.

  • lilin

    Translation of most anti-vaxxers: “My fantasy is more important than your reality.”

  • ALG

    Semi-OT… But can someone explain the anti-vax garbage about vaccine shedding? I occasionally see comments on FB about how vaccines can shed. What do they mean and how on earth do they figure? I know I could go on some anti-vax website, but I’d much rather get an explanation from a rational person.

    Otherwise, I just want to say I LOVE this blog… I’ve been reading it daily since I discovered it in my post-partum haze ten months ago. I wanted to get Push Back when I was at the bookstore recently, but it wasn’t in stock… I had to settle for the new Harry Potter play/book.

    • BeatriceC

      There’s a theoretical risk with whole-cell, live virus vaccines that a newly vaccinated person could “shed”; i.e., that enough of the actual disease is present for the person to be contagious. It’s a non-issue with acellular and/or non-live virus vaccines. The reason why the risk is purely theoretical is that while there is a plausible mechanism for it to happen, there have been exactly zero confirmed cases of it actually happening.

      • swbarnes2

        Also remember, a live virus vaccine has been attenuated. It’s been grown for a few generations in some other animal, and has evolved to be good at infecting that host, so it’s not so great at infecting people any more. That’s what gives the human immune system time to mount a defense without getting sick. So I guess it could still be a risk for an immunocompromised person, who might not clear an infection before the virus mutates back, but it shouldn’t do much to a healthy person.

      • Azuran

        And I guess they also needed an explanation as to why their unvaxxed kid got vaccine preventable disease. Since it absolutely cannot be because their kids are unvaxxed, they had to come up with another explanation: It’s the vaxxed kids that are making them sick, it’s all part of big pharma’s plan to kill all those they cannot control with their vaccine.

        • Sean Jungian

          Shedding was their explanation for the Disney measles outbreak, I think, as well as at least one outbreak I know of in Michigan. They claimed (erroneously, I believe?) that most of the kids who developed measles were vaccinated, and that it was spread by these vaccinated kids through shedding.

          • Azuran

            I don’t remember which outbreak they use as their example. It is true that in absolute number, more vaccinated people got measles than unvaccinated people….Because the vast majority of people are vaccinated. When you look at the proportion, you get en entire different picture.

          • Sonja Henie

            No, that is not true. About half had no records. Of the rest, about 75% were unvaccinated.

            Source is CDC.

          • Azuran

            Well, it’s anti-vaxxers, they probably looked through all of the outbreak and found the one that confirmed their biases. Like I said, I don’t remember where I heard that stupid argument.

          • Sonja Henie

            You can tell them the CDC/California Dept. of Health says otherwise.
            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm?s_cid=mm6406a5_w

          • Azuran

            Yea, but we both know the CDC works for big pharma 😉

          • Azuran

            Oh, I found where they came up with this nonsense. Apparently from a pertussis outbreak in california. But it’s really nothing scientific, they just twist the numbers around until they get something that they like. And then pretend it shows that vaccines don’t work and that the outbreak wasn’t caused by antivaxxers.

          • Sonja Henie

            Patient zero in the Disney outbreak was never identified. The virus type was the same type circulating in the Phillippines, it was not vaccine virus. Of the patients for whom there were records, about 75% were unvaccinated.

          • Puffin

            Known to be unvaccinated. There was an additional fairly significant portion who’d had only one shot (the norm prior to the mid-90s and less effective than the two shot regimen) or for whom vaccination status was unknown.

            When you look at population proportions, it’s still pretty damn clear how effective the vaccine is.

          • Sonja Henie

            No one knows who patient zero was, let alone his/her vaccination status.

          • Sonja Henie

            Of the 61 California patients with records, 49 were unvaccinated. 80%. 5 patients, or 8% had one dose of vaccine, and 11% had two doses.

          • Puffin

            Oh it wouldn’t surprise me if a majority were vaccinated, partially or totally. Per the CDC, 3-7% of people who are vaccinated with MMR just won’t develop immunity to measles (7% with 1 dose, 3% with two. Dosing schedule changed in the 90s.) Vaccines are imperfect, it’s why we depend on herd immunity.

            Thing is, that 3-7% of vaccinated people who remain susceptible is roughly the same size as the entire population of unvaccinated people (it’s I believe around 5% in California right now.)

            So say you’ve got about 50,000 people visiting Disney World per day. If this population reflects the overall population, you’ve got about 2500 unvaccinated people in there and 1500-3500 who are vaccinated but non-immune. You’d expect around half of the infected would be vaccinated, just based on this quick back of the envelope estimate.

            As it turns out, with the Disney outbreak, 45% were known to be unvaccinated, which fits with this estimate. A further 18% were known to be vaccinated, and the rest had unknown vaccination status.

            When you look at the infection rates, even if we assume that all the ‘unknown status’ were vaccinated, it still works out that a much higher proportion of the unvaccinated population was sickened than the vaccinated population.

      • Charybdis

        I think there was a case of polio somewhere that was caught via “shedding”. The baby had been given the live (Salk) oral polio vaccine and the grandmother (?) caught it from changing the baby’s diaper. The grandmother had neither had polio previously in her life nor had any vaccine.

        Other than that, I don’t think there has been another case of it happening. It is a favorite pet theory of the anti-vax brigade because it sounds SORTA plausible.

        • Azuran

          Yea, because who cares that without vaccine, thousands of kids would die each year. Having even 1 person in the history of humanity getting a disease from ‘shedding’ is totally unacceptable. If it’s not absolutely 100% safe and effective, it is simply not worth doing.

          • Sue

            Because in anti-vax upside-down land, anything less than 100% is the same as 0%.

          • Nick Sanders

            Unless we are talking about side effects and adverse reactions, in which case, anything greater than 0% is the same as 100%.

        • Sonja Henie

          There have been a few cases of Vaccine Acquired Paralytic Polio, from the live SABIN vaccine. 1 in 2.7 million doses.
          http://www.who.int/immunization/diseases/poliomyelitis/endgame_objective2/oral_polio_vaccine/VAPPandcVDPVFactSheet-Feb2015.pdf

          • Mike Stevens

            There are some cases of vaccine acquired paralytic polio, where the vaxed kid developed paralysis because of reversion to a degree of virulence.

            The vaccine strain virus is shed in the stool, but usually the worst that would happen is that the exposed people get a dose of vaccine. But cases of true transmission from shedding where the exposed person gets polio are almost unheard of. The case above Charybdis mentioned would be one.

          • Charybdis

            Yeah, I meant the Sabin. I don’t work too closely with vaccines any more and tend to confuse the two, Salk and Sabin.

          • Mike Stevens

            “K” (Salk) for “killed”

          • MI Dawn

            That’s very helpful, Mike! I tend to mix up Tdap (adults) and DTaP (children) till I figured out Tdap has a T for adulTs first…

          • Sonja Henie

            I didn’t mean to sound so snippy. I apologize.

        • Sue

          Clearly the risk of transmission from shedding of the live (oral) polio vaccine is miniscule, because polio was eradictaed from many countries before the OPV was replaced with inactivated polio vaccine (IPV).

          In Australia, the last cases of polio were in the early 1970s, whereas the OPV was only replaced in 2005.

          The anti-vaxers love to publicise the odd case of vaccine-transmitted polio in imporverished communities, where OPV is still used.

          What they don;t realise is that, before OPV, polio cases never made the news because they were everywhere.

      • Sonja Henie

        There has never been a documented case of measles vaccine virus “shedding” and causing disease. With rotavirus, it’s recommended that one wash one’s hands well after changing diapers, whichis what you’re supposed to do anyway.

        See this: https://www.verywell.com/live-vaccines-and-vaccine-shedding-2633700

        • Kim Rieck

          Yes. There were two kids in the Ukraine last year. They are believed to have caught polio via shedding. The shedding occurs through feces with the live, oral vaccine. Hygiene in a war-torn country is probably less than ideal.

          • Sonja Henie

            Polio is not measles or rotavirus. I did address polio downthread.

          • guest

            It was, until 2000. I got it as an oral vaccine.

          • Sonja Henie

            I’d bet you didn’t get it in 2000. That’s the year the US switched. Are you just 16 years old? Because in 1998 the US switched to IPV for the last two doses.

          • Mariana

            Oral polio vaccine is widely used in Brazil, and polio is considered to be eradicated here, so shedding can’t be all that common, right? I mean, sanitation is ok in large cities, but far from ideal in the country as a whole… Yet, no polio, even with all these vaccinated kids shedding virusus everywhere

          • Sonja Henie

            There is no polio in the western hemisphere.

    • Cyndi

      It’s based upon actual cases where those given the oral polio vaccine did shed and this caused polio in a small number of the unvaccinated. The OPV was discontinued due to this problem. This then led led the theoretical issue of shedding of with some vaccines.

  • Madtowngirl

    I love the meme that says, “if I can’t send my child to school with peanut butter, you shouldn’t be able to send your unvaccinated child, either.” It’s true. We keep schools peanut free to keep children with severe allergies safe. We also have an obligation to protect children who are immunocompromised or cannot be vaccinated.

    • Charybdis

      I LOVE this.

    • Diet dee

      Why does the kid have peanut butter?

      • Madtowngirl

        What? Did you entirely miss the point or are you just trying to stir stuff up?

        • Diet dee

          Can’t I make a joke?

          • Monkey Professor for a Head

            Jokes are usually funny.

          • Who?

            Apparently not. Perhaps if that was your best shot at it you might consider hanging on to your day job spreading vaccine misinformation.

      • That’s the point.

        The kid doesn’t have to have peanut butter and your kid doesn’t need to bring preventable diseases.

        • Diet dee

          the kid doesn’t have a preventable disease by virtue of being un-vaccinated.Most cases comes from outside the county so ban Europeans if you like but a few hundred cases of measles is not a cause for concern in country of 300 million people.

          • So? We don’t need to wait for drunkards to crash.

          • Diet dee

            we have wait until we find a drunkard with car keys

          • Why is that enough, Diet Dee? Please explain to me how a drunk driver is supposed to hurt someone in an accident they haven’t had?! Heck, drunkard with car keys isn’t on the road yet – how can they kill someone in an accident they haven’t had!?

          • Diet dee

            Can charge the until you determine that is 1:drinking(infected) and intends to drink.
            In vaccinated kids are not a dang until infection much like vaccinated kids are not a danger until infection(since most vaccines are not not 100% effective or safe)

          • Heidi_storage

            You might want to get your cat off the keyboard before responding.

          • Heidi

            I thought maybe she typing under the “infection.”

          • You didn’t answer the question.

            Why can we charge a drunkard with keys? Our drunkard (let’s call him “Billy”) hasn’t had an accident, remember? So why can we arrest Billy – he’s not on the road so he can’t kill anyone in an accident he hasn’t had.

            And do you know why the American drinking age is 21?

          • Diet dee

            if Billy get to the drivers seat while drunk he present s a danger. if he hasn’t been drink you can’t arrested him. un vaccinated kids are not a vector until the disease or outbreak is present. 2015 had 600 cases of measles out of 300 million people.
            so why is the drinking age 21 since 18 years can own firearm, serve in the military and smoke?

          • How is the drunkard supposed to harm anyone in the driver’s seat? Billy hasn’t had an accident – how can he threaten someone in an accident he hasn’t even had?

          • Kerlyssa

            the infection is equivalent to the car accident. driving drunk is equivalent to the increased risk of being unvaccinated. neither the drunk driver nor the unvaxxed person has caused harm yet, but both are engaging in behavior that risks not only themselves but others as well.

          • Again, Billy is a drunk driver – he hasn’t had an accident.

            Sober drivers can have accidents too.

            So why can we arrest Billy the drunkard when he has his car keys? Remember – he can’t kill someone in an accident he hasn’t even had!

          • I’m still waiting for you to explain how Billy can hurt someone in an accident he hasn’t even had!

          • No, dear. The infection is the car crash.

    • SlammoFandango

      Yeah, but the kid that can now be killed by simply coming into contact with peanuts – which are a hell of more common than – Measles Mumps Rubella Diphtheria Pertussis Tetanus HepatitisB Polio ChickenPox Rotavirus Epiglotis Pneumonia and Meningitis COMBINED….developed the peanut allergy after having his immune system so continually phuqued with by such a shight-ton of vaccines for diseases that are hardly, if at all, present in the environment the kid actually lives in.

      • corblimeybot

        You’re a raving moron. Sorry, there’s nothing else to say to this comment.

      • corblimeybot

        Actually, I have one thing to say. My friend’s mother had tetanus as a child. They don’t even know where she got it. She wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary for a child. She wasn’t slicing her flesh with junk that had been outside for years. She just got tetanus. She suffered in agony and mercifully recovered, with lifelong fallout. And no, she was not vaccinated.

        You have no fucking clue what you’re talking about if you don’t think at least TETANUS is present in the environment people live in.

        • SlammoFandango

          Well, you can get your kid a tetanus shot if you like…now, does that make you feel better? Good now you can calm down…

          You do understand that an unvaccinated kid could never give your kid tetanus anyway, right?

          • I’m sure corblimeybot does. But avoiding the toxins from natural immunity to diptheria or pertussis probably sounds a good idea to corblimeybot.

          • Nick Sanders

            There is no natural immunity to pertussis. The pertussis toxin is so potent that a lethal dose is far less than the amount needed for the body to form an immune response to it.

      • Nick Sanders

        There’s no vaccine for “epiglotis”. The epiglottis is a body part.

        I don’t think you have the faintest clue what you are talking about.

        • Sonja Henie

          He doesn’t. Epiglottitis, a very serious disease, can be caused by invasive Hib infection. Prior to the vaccine, it was relatively common, and often life threatening.

          • Nick Sanders

            Yes, I’d really like to see him try to say that peanuts were more common than chicken pox or measles ALONE back before the respective vaccines for those diseases, let alone all those things combined if we didn’t vaccinate for them.

            And of course, the issue is not how common peanuts are, but how common peanut allergies are. And they definitely are not more common than most of the things on that list, to say nothing of the entire list.

            Beyond that, even if vaccination somehow had a 100% guarantee of giving you a peanut allergy; I’d much rather have that, and be able to lead a mostly normal life, than something like polio or congenital rubella which could leave me permanently disabled, or diphtheria or meningitis which could easily kill me before I even had a double digit lifespan.

        • SlammoFandango

          Actually the HIB vaccine is supposed to prevent epiglotitis, which is, and even what most lay people would understand to mean, a swelling of the epiglotis.

          I’m sorry if you didn’t get the meaning…

          • Charybdis

            No, you’re not, not even a little bit.

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s not my fault that you can’t effectively communicate your ideas. When you can’t even use the proper term, or spell the term you used, it marks you out as someone with little to no actual knowledge of the subject. And medicine is not a subject where the accumulated body of research can be refuted by laymen. As such, if you can’t demonstrate even the barest level of competence when talking about it, there really is no reason to listen to you.

          • SlammoFandango

            Ah, ha ha

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s not a joke.

          • This is a literally a life-and-death matter. Please try and treat the situation with the gravity that it warrants.

          • It’s supposed to prevent Hib, actually.

          • SlammoFandango

            Right, and Hib often brings symptoms of………….

          • Nick Sanders
          • demodocus

            missed that meme. Why on earth do antivaxxers think pharmacuetical companies put time and effort to cure minor illnesses? For the couple hundred dollars per kid? Rather than the millions on viagra… (Rhetorical question)

          • Pregnancy and GI bugs both often bring symptoms of nausea and vomiting. Is birth control supposed to prevent vomiting?

          • Epiglottis …. so?

            Pregnancy and GI bugs both often bring symptoms of nausea and vomiting. Is birth control supposed to prevent vomiting?

          • 3)Pregnancy and GI bugs both often bring symptoms of nausea and vomiting. Is birth control supposed to prevent vomiting?

          • You just made me realize something. So, in homeopathy, like cures like, right? If semen exposure causes pregnancy, shouldn’t a homeopathic semen preparation be effective birth control?

            (I wonder if Lowell Hubbs believes in the Big Pharma story that sperm is linked to pregnancy!)

      • Andrew Lazarus

        There is zero evidence that vaccines cause peanut allergy and a working hypothesis that better hygiene (that antivaxers love so much) is responsible for increases in allergies.

      • Madtowngirl

        Vaccines don’t cause peanut allergies.

      • Citation needed.

      • Are you really relying on the absence of diseases to say that vaccines don’t work?

        • SlammoFandango

          I don’t even understand such a question as your’s. It’s such a desperate attempt to paint me as hysterical, it becomes hard to even follow how you could have even hatched it….Stop. Just stop;you’re embarrassing yourself.

          • “I don’t even understand such a question as your’s” You should – it’s a really basic concept when someone’s done any research at all. The point is that you can’t go “We have people on ventilators so clearly, people dying when they can’t breathe properly is a myth so stop using ventilators.”

            ” It’s such a desperate attempt to paint me as hysterical, it becomes hard to even follow how you could have even hatched it….Stop.”

            Believe me – you’d KNOW if I was trying to paint you as hysterical. I’m not shy about not suffering fools gladly.

            “Stop. Just stop;you’re embarrassing yourself.” So….my transparent attempt to “make you look hysterical” is so threatening that you can’t even answer it? Give over.

            Besides, if vaccines are as dangerous as you say then you SHOULD be hysterical. Getting angry with people who are trying to harm oh….thousands of kids….is perfectly understandable.

    • Yeah, the meme is “If my child isn’t allowed to bring peanut butter then yours shouldn’t be allowed to bring preventable diseases.”

  • EC

    I just want to again remind all adults to get your titers tested. Even if you had all your childhood vaccines, your immunities may have faded. A few booster shots will make you immune again, which is important in these days when herd immunity is slipping away. It’s likely that your insurance will cover the tests and the boosters (mine did), though check first, of course.

    • Madtowngirl

      My last workplace actually offered Hep B titers, at the cost of the company. It’s that important.

      • MI Dawn

        I didn’t sero-convert for HepB, even though I had the full series (I’m weird that way – don’t convert/develop immunity for some stuff, whether I had the disease or not, others, I do develop immunity). But since I don’t work with any body fluids any more, I’m not going to get it again.

        • fiftyfifty1

          Yes, this is frustrating. A small percentage of people who receive the series never seroconvert. Most do, but many will test negative if titers are retested years later. For this second group, they are still considered immune and in general *don’t* need to be receive the series again.

    • MI Dawn

      Just got my MMR boosted last week. Not due for TDaP for a while yet. And I’ll get the flu vaccine when my employer offers it in the fall.

      • Sonja Henie

        If you’ve never had Tdap, you can get one any time.
        http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_per.asp

        “Tdap can be given regardless of the interval since the
        last Td was given. There is NO need to wait 2–5 years to
        administer Tdap following a dose of Td.”

        • MI Dawn

          I had Tdap several years ago. I will get a repeat if my kids ever give me grandchildren. I strongly believe in cocooning, even if I wouldn’t see the baby often!

          • Sonja Henie

            Currently, the recommendation is for one Tdap per lifetime, except for pregnant women, who should get one during each pregnancy.

          • AnnaPDE

            Here in Australia, Tdap boosters are recommended for anyone who has contact with a newborn and had their last shot more than 10 years ago: Dads, older siblings, grandparents, nannies, etc.

          • MI Dawn

            Exactly why I’ll get one if/when one of my kids gets pregnant. 🙂

    • Lucy

      This is so true. I got rubella when I was 24 (i got all my vaccines when young) This is why herd inmunity is so important. I work at a hospital (mostly with adults) and epidemiology didnt found a single case of a patient getting rubella from me. The herd inmunity protect my comunity from an outbreak because 97% of people I got in contact with already had antibodies. Thats the power of vaccines.

    • fiftyfifty1

      “I just want to again remind all adults to get your titers tested.”

      Actually not. Let’s follow guidelines on this instead. In general adults do NOT need to get titers testing. There are some exceptions (e.g. healthcare workers in certain situations for select illnesses and pregnant women for rubella), but in general, titer testing is not recommended if a person knows that he or she was vaccinated.

      • Megan

        Agree. I have actually not known it to be covered by most insurances either, even for students going into healthcare fields. Either the school foots the bill or they do. It’s not cheap.

      • namaste863

        I don’t know……I had my titers pulled last year, and it turned out I needed an MMR booster. I was fully vaccinated as a child.

        • fiftyfifty1

          Yes, that’s the problem with titers. The titer number fades after years have gone by, but the person is typically still immune when presented with the disease. So between the cost of the doctor visit, the cost of all the tests (in the case of MMR it is 3 tests) and then reimmunization, the money really adds up fast, and usually the person was actually immune the entire time, so all the $$$ was a waste.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Yeah. Instead of wasting time on titers, just get a booster shot. It would be quicker and cheaper.

          • fiftyfifty1

            ” just get a booster shot”
            No, don’t do that either. Let’s all just follow the CDC guidelines.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Of course, don’t do either, but boosters are still better than titers.

          • AnnaPDE

            What’s the problem with booster shots?

  • Glia

    “Waaaaaaahhhhhh! Waaaaahhhhhh! I should get the benefits of a collaborative society without having to fulfill any of the responsibilities! None of the burden of providing group resources should fall on me! Educate my babies, while they endanger yours! Waaaaahhhhh!”

    See also: libertarians, all the rich kids I attended public elementary-university classes with who claimed “no one ever helped me, I did it all myself”, and people who are entirely self-made because they started a business (with a loan from a federally insured bank, run in their home for which they get tax credits, to which their customers drive on public highways).

    Love,

    A pissy goddam socialist.

    • Amy

      I’ll just park here next to you.

      Love,
      Another proud socialist.

    • guest

      <3

    • demodocus

      not a socialist, still agree! A certain candidate built his business all on his own with only a small million dollar loan from his father. eyeroll

      • Amazed

        I proudly started my working life on the PC my mom bought me. Felt mightily pleased to be able to pay it off in monthly installments in a year and a half. But then, I am not a candidate for any lucrative post.

        • Glia

          No shame in getting help from mom or dad from me! My parents helped me all through college. I was broke, and they weren’t exactly swimming in money either, but there is a big difference between “if I don’t make the rent with my crappy job, I’m going to get kicked out and be on the street” poor and “if I don’t make the rent with my crappy job, I am going to have to move back into my old bedroom at mom and dad’s place” poor.

          I don’t even have a problem with a person, in a general sense, getting a big loan from a parent to get started. The gross part is failing to realize that it is more money than a lot of people will see in their lifetimes, not a “small loan”, and that just being the child of someone who HAS a million dollars, let alone a million to loan out, ALREADY gives you a leg up on success over someone who actually started with nothing.

          • demodocus

            ‘Xactly.

      • Glia

        Ugh, yes, like that. A completely self-made man, obviously.

        I feel like going by the practical use, rather than the dictionary, the current USA definition of “socialist” is basically anyone who acknowledges any responsibility at all to the quality of life of any person not related to them by blood or marriage. (Of course, based on a number of interactions with much more conservative family/acquaintances, just thinking that not actually killing other people through negligence or malice is enough to get you branded a radical liberal, so that may skew my perception. I do live in a big ol’ liberal bubble, though, so I imagine that if I’m seeing that sort of thing, there must at least be pockets of it out there for real.)

        • demodocus

          ah, but my degree is in history with a hefty dose of politics, so i know the difference between socialist and merely left of Ronald Reagan

          • Glia

            Hah! Fair enough! (And I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t, sorry if it sounded that way. I’m not actually strictly speaking completely a socialist either, it is more nuanced than that. I am really pissy about antivaxers, though.)

    • Sean Jungian

      *flops down on the floor with her pillow*

      Another socialist here, for all intents and purposes.

    • Amazed

      Not a socialist. Would still like to live in society, so I’m gladly following the rules.

      A fully-fledged adult who’s going for her boosters in a month.

    • Marie Gregg

      Hey, now. I’m pretty libertarian politically-speaking (which doesn’t mean I don’t believe in community collaboration and care for fellow man – I do, but I’m digressing), but I absolutely think that school systems are within their rights to mandate vaccination. Parents still have the ability to make the (wrong) choice not to do it. They just have to deal with the consequences. Seems pretty fair to me.

      • T.

        I agree. Some People seems to believe freedom equals lack of consequences. Uh no, it doesn’t work that way.

        You can still not vaccinate and homeschool or send your kids to a private school. Simple.

        The only case when vaccination is truly forced is during a bad putbreak. I read in Offit book of one such, a particularly deadly strain of measle breaking out in one of these sects against alla medical care. It killed thirty dove children and the authority forced vaccination. And a good things it was.

        But it was an extreme case.

        • T.

          Thirty five, sorry autocorrect.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        But the libertarian position is that there should not be any public school in the first place, so why should libertarians care what the rules are for public school?

        • Marie Gregg

          This libertarian believes in education. (Honestly, I don’t really identify fully with any party/philosophy. I tend to lean that direction, but mostly I’m a centrist that believes in using good ideas, no matter where they come from).

          • J.B.

            I think that a lot of self described libertarians have drifted quite a bit from the original definition (see Matt Walsh) so that’s probably what people responding to you are expecting.

  • BeatriceC

    Honestly I’m surprised there hasn’t been a bigger stink raised by the pro-disease folks. I’m in California and it’s been pretty quiet except for the one article out of Sacramento. The online keyboard warriors are going nuts, but locally anyway, there hasn’t been much fuss. The Bay Area is probably a different story, but that’s the other end of the state.

    • livesinSearsLand

      In my area they are all quietly sneaking to Dr. Sears for medical exemptions for bizarre (fake) reasons. Disheartening, but at least they have to live with their own dishonesty.

      • swbarnes2

        Seems like they need an amendment to the bill requiring the exempting doctor to send results of some test to a panel of state-approved doctors to okay the exemption.

        • Azuran

          Well……I don’t think there is any kind of ‘test’ that can be done to prove the necessity of medical exemption. Usually those would be things like:
          -I have a known allergy to something that is also in vaccine.
          -I had a very severe reaction after receiving a vaccine. (might not have been the vaccine, but we sure as hell aren’t going to risk their life by giving them more vaccines and see what happens)
          -I’m taking immunosuppresive drugs or have a disease that might make me immunocompromised.

          However, Dr. Sears is risking his medical licence if he’s making false diagnosis and handing over made up medical exemptions without any medical reason. I do hope his professional order (or whatever they have where he practice) will eventually look him up.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I’m Virginia the health department has to approve medical exemptions.

          • Azuran

            It would make sense. But I don’t think they need a specific test done to approve it. They probably just get a request from a doctor with a quick explanation of why they can’t get vaccinated, and that’s probably enough.

            Any Doctor who would make up a medical reason for exemption is risking his right to practice, so I doubt too many would take the risk.

          • Sonja Henie

            In Colorado no documentation other than the doctor’s signature is required; however medical exemptions are few and far between b/c it’s easy to get a personal belief exemptions. I worked for doctors who would not sign them.

          • swbarnes2

            You can show the results of an allergy test? A person who is immunocompromised likely has a long medical paper trail showing that.

            Otherwise, everyone would say “My kid had one vaccine, and reacted badly”. Though I guess if the doctor had to show proof that yes, the kid really got that one vaccine, that would be something.

          • Sonja Henie

            Allergy to vaccine or vaccine component is a contraindication to a vaccine.

          • Azuran

            If their kid really got a real serious vaccine reaction, then there is a medical record of it and he was seen by a doctor. If it wasn’t serious enough to warrant a visit to a doctor, than it’s obviously not serious enough to have an exemption.
            Like you said, it still needs a doctor to sign on the exemption. So a parent saying ‘my kid had a reaction’ is not going to be enough without a doctor backing up the claim.

      • Christopher Hickie

        It sounds like dr. Sears was recently reported to the State Medical Board for selling medical exemptions online without examining the patient. This is disgusting if it’s true but I hope at least they do something good like tear up his license and tell him to go elsewhere, maybe joining mr. Wakefield on his stupid Vaxxed bus tour. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/07/29/after-sb-277-online-medical-exemptions-to-school-vaccine-mandates-are-now-for-sale/

        • Sonja Henie

          Good! I’m glad he got reported, the scum.

      • Anne

        I have just thought of a legitimate medical exemption- delusional disorder in the parent! Just need a DSM classification and there we go- no need for anyone to perjure themselves or put their medical licence at risk.

        Oh, wait- it’s not ABOUT the parent?
        Back to the drawing board…

  • Megan

    With two children who are both sick and teething, I’m not sure I have the energy for these folks today…