How betrayal aversion makes anti-vaxxers more afraid of vaccine complications than of disease

51924249 - betrayed word on keyboard button

How do people analyze risks to determine the best course of action?

Imagine that you were given a choice of two different rental apartments, and you were planning to make your decision based on which offered the most protection from death in a fire. The first apartment had an older smoke alarm and a 2% risk of fire related death; the second apartment had a newer smoke alarm with a 1.01% chance of fire related death. All other factors being equal, those who are fire averse will choose the apartment with the newer technology and the lower risk of death, right? Not necessarily and the reason is a widespread but seldom noted phenomenon, betrayal aversion.

The apartment example is taken from a paper by Gershoff and Koehler, Safety First? The Role of Emotion in Safety Product Betrayal Aversion. The authors note that some risks are apparently more frightening than others.

Consumers often face decisions about whether to purchase products that are intended to protect them from possible harm. However, safety products rarely provide perfect protection and sometimes “betray” consumers by causing the very harm they are intended to prevent. Examples include vaccines that may cause disease and air bags that may explode with such force that they cause death. … [T]his study examines the role of emotions in consumers’ tendency to choose safety options that provide less overall protection in order to eliminate a very small probability of harm due to safety product betrayal…

Gershoff and Koehler’s asked study participants which apartment they preferred, having explained that smoke alarms differ in risk of death, but also in the risk of malfunction:

Some participants were told that in the event of a nighttime fire due to the usual causes, occupants in the apartment equipped with Alarm One had a 2% chance of dying while occupants in the apartment equipped with Alarm Two had only a 1% chance of dying. However, they were also told that the wiring of Alarm Two was such that it sometimes causes electrical fires that increase the risk of dying in a nighttime fire by an additional 0.01%. In other words, Alarm One was associated with a 2% risk of death and Alarm Two was associated with a 1% + 0.01% (betrayal) risk of death.

Most participants of the study chose the apartment with Alarm One even though it had double the increased risk of fire death. That’s because most participants the tiny risk of “betrayal” (product malfunction) much more frightening that the much larger risk of actually dying.

Why did the risk of product betrayal loom so large in the minds of study participants?

It is not surprising that consumers consider the risk of betrayal when choosing among safety devices. The mere possibility of betrayal threatens the social order that enables us to trust the safety infrastructure of our society, causing intense visceral reactions and negative emotions toward the betrayer. Unfortunately, these strong negative emotions toward a potential betrayer may also lead people to take unwise risks…

It is this visceral reaction that causes people to make irrational decisions about vaccinating their children. When parents balance the much larger risk of a child dying from a vaccine preventable disease against the tiny chance of a child being injured by the vaccine, they regard the possibility of product betrayal with out-sized horror. And because they are horrified by the tiny risk, they paradoxically choose the much larger risk. Ironically, they actually think that they are “protecting” their children by embracing the much higher risk of death from disease.

That’s because reaction to risk depends on emotion as well as rational analysis:

Research on how people evaluate risky options points to the importance of … the emotional system. Studies show that people commonly make judgments and decisions under uncertainty based on nonprobabilistic rules, visceral urges … and gut feelings. [The] risk-as feelings hypothesis … argues that feelings such as worry, dread, and fear drive decisions in ways that cannot be reconciled with an analytical assessment of the underlying risks…

Gershoff and Koehler note that betrayal aversion has important implications for public health policy:

… Various government agencies are charged with protecting public safety and general welfare. These agencies frequently issue safety standards on such important matters as seat belt usage in cars, helmet usage on bicycles, and vaccinations for public school children. Policy makers, who generally prefer alternatives that maximize overall safety, need to be sensitive to the possibility that members of the public will find some of those alternatives emotionally repugnant. Indeed, large portions of the public may act in ways that put them at increased risk…

Interestingly, the authors do not suggest that people should be encouraged to dismiss betrayal aversion:

… If the negative consequences of safety product betrayals reach beyond the immediate harm .., then one cannot say that consumers’ safety product preferences should rely on probability of death comparisons alone. A rational person may justly believe that eliminating the collateral damage that betrayals may cause, including the emotional toll and damage to the social order, is worth trading for a small increased risk of death.

That may be true, but many people do not realize that their judgment is shaped by betrayal aversion. If, after careful consideration of the actual risks, some people elect to accept the higher risk of harm from vaccine preventable illness over the much smaller risk of harm from vaccines, they have every right to do so. But in order to carefully consider the risks, people need to realize that their emotional reaction to product betrayal may be clouding their assessment of the magnitude of the risks.

 

This piece first appeared in March 2011.

  • W

    I’ve skimmed your posts because one came up in a search, and obviously you have a beef with those who question vaccines and want to encourage the deeply entrenched views of those who fully trust science as infallible, as well as pit parents against each other. You have your loyal followers among the commenters who are waiting to swoop down and eviscerate those who post any dissent. That’s okay….eviscerate away. I won’t be back on here. I don’t give one @&%%# about you or your views. Maybe I’ll give you even more fodder for another “anti-vaxxer rant.” You don’t have as much sway as you think you do. You will not change the mind of a parent who has witnessed her child seizing violently, or stop talking, or become seriously ill needing hospitalization after half a dozen shots given at one time. It is not always a “coincidence.” You aren’t God and you don’t know everything about everyone. Science has never been infallible. Look at all the things that have changed over the years that science formerly supposedly settled, like doctors always telling women formula was better for their babies than breastmilk in the 50s and 60s and giving them shots to dry them up, then swaying in the other (extreme in my opinion) direction of lactivism with no in-between and a lot of flawed studies. That’s just one example. Those who fall for that lie will eventually be disappointed. You can post all the scientific jargon you want. If science was proven unsettled in the infant feeding debate, why is it settled when it comes to vaccines? How much does improved sanitation factor into the decline in diseases? Is there a limit to how much aluminum is safe for a 6-pound infant, compared with how much they receive at one day of life? IF a pharmaceutical drug can cause reactions in some people and is contraindicated for some individuals, why are vaccines supposed to be safe for all children? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Children are all individuals with different physical makeups and vulnerabilities. Bottom line: You don’t know as much as you think you do. I’ll take my chances with measles. All the people I know who got it as children are totally fine. Brain injury and illness from aluminum, live viruses and other toxins being injected in multiple doses at one time into a vulnerable small child…….no thank you. It happens….maybe not in your fantasy world of herd immunity (which does not exist because vaccines wear off within a decade and most adults do not get boosters) and totally safe vaccines, but it does happen. So good luck on changing the minds of many parents who don’t fall for the kind of baloney I’ve read on here.

  • Acleron

    So the fear factor of various outcomes clouds judgement of risk factors. I think many intuitively know this, including anti vaxxers. This is why they incessantly make up stories about the harm done by vaccines. If risk factors can be overcome by real outcomes then adding in imaginary outcomes will work just as well.

  • N

    (psst, I thought there was an anti-vax-mud-wrestling room somewhere… :-))

    • demodocus

      Troll! Troll in the dungeon!! i just thought you should know *faint*

      • MaineJen

        Wow, these new ones are…special. What is with the ‘inappropriate’ and ‘arbitrary’ use of ‘quotation marks?’ Or the non-sequitor one liners? It’s like a bad parody of a troll.

      • Roadstergal

        OMG, I just re-watched that two weeks ago.

  • Anon

    There’s an interesting example of betrayal aversion in the UK healthcare system currently. Since our Health Secretary gave a statement saying patients were “15% more likely to die*” if they were admitted to hospital during the weekend, we now have patients declining transplants if they occur over a weekend. It’s incredibly frustrating, particularly as there are risk factors which have far more impact than whether or not the surgery happens over a weekend (e.g the quality of the organ offered). We always aim to allocate patients the lowest-risk grafts possible, and by rejecting one simply because it comes along during the weekend means that there’s less time to find another suitable one. (As the patient gets more ill it becomes more imperative to transplant them using any organ which could work, even if the quality is marginal). It’s an unbelievably risky strategy to take.
    * I may have mis-remembered the percentage

    • Dr Kitty

      The “Hunt effect” is killing people.
      The “weekend effect” iis so complex and multifactorial that causation cannot be attributed to any single factor.

      Unsupported Junior doctors being solely in charge of hospitals out of hours doesn’t help, but fixing that requires more investment and increased recruitment- not pay cuts, hiring freezes and driving existing staff away!

      I worked in a DGH where one Friday night between 2am and 8am there was an F2 alone in A&E, two F2s running the medical and surgical take sharing an F1 between them and an F2 alone on labour ward.
      At the time there were an average of 25 medical admissions, 15 surgical admissions, 150 A&E attendees and 3 deliveries every 24 hours in that hospital, with more than 200 inpatients.
      To say staffing was inadequate was a gross understatement.

      Regs were on a 1 in 3 on call band 1A rota with oncalls from home and the SHOs were on 2A rotas with every other weekend on, so we were already pushed to breaking point and working unpaid overtime to keep the place ticking over and the consultants wouldn’t come in unless the Reg was already there.

      Which is how a friend of mine ended up being told over the phone how to put in a chest tube by his Reg, who was still 10 minutes away from the hospital.

  • Mike Stevens

    One problem with the antivaccine perspective is that they choose to disbelieve the true risks of adverse events/side effects after vaccination. In their minds, the risks are still far higher than the risks from the diseases, so they will never accede that their risk-benefit calculations are awry.

    • JBK alternative

      You have proven the risk is greater with vaccines with your measles argument, remember Mikey?

      • Mike Stevens

        No, I don’t “remember” that.
        The risks from measles are several orders of magnitude higher than the risks from the vaccine.

        • JBK alternative

          That is not what you said Mikey, you said 500 measles deaths without the vaccine, I said 1 in 45 autistic because of the vaccine. Therefore you have admitted that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease, once again, your honesty is greatly appreciated, people need to know the truth about these types of things.

          • Mike Stevens

            But your “one in 45 autistic because of the vaccine” is just imaginary.
            You are assuming that
            1. All autism is caused by vaccines
            2. All autism is caused by measles vaccine
            3. MMR/vaccines can cause autism.
            All of those presumptions are incorrect.

          • Wren

            Seriously?

            The MMR has not been proven to cause autism. In fact, many studies in many countries have been unable to find that the MMR causes autism.

            1 in 45 is not the correct number for autism prevalence.

            Even if the vaccine did cause autism, autism is not death. You still have 500 dead of measles versus none dead from vaccines.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            “The MMR has not been proven to cause autism.”

            Sure it has, watch the Vaxxed movie.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Save it, I provided ample literature a couple comments ago. Let me know when you get a real argument. Bought science is not science.

          • Nick Sanders

            I have yet to find any literature provided by you. I have my posts ordered newest first, and I’m still working my way down the page.

            Regardless, those studies are still extremely relevant.

          • demodocus

            The book is just about always better than the movie

          • Sonja Henie

            Snort!

          • Where can I watch it for free online?

            @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus:

            Explain what needs to happen re: COIs, would you?

          • Mike Stevens

            https://vimeo.com/180244371
            All yours, marbles…

          • Pity. I was hoping they’d released it somewhere.

          • Sorry to be a pain but can anyone provide me with the watch on vimeo link?

            @A@Acleron:disqus , @B@disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus @F@noodlyappendage1:disqus @F@disqus_QQLdIjfKc3:disqus @C@Charibdys:disqus @H@disqus_sSPvohCccP:disqus @Ibi@3xi:disqus @K@kfunk937:disqus @M@MaineJen:disqus @N@disqus_nDbzlLOHy2:disqus @R@carrielooney:disqus @S@shay_simmons:disqus @W@disqus_SBMGQU6KGI:disqus @Y@Yourstruly:disqus

          • Acleron

            Weird. I watched it a long time ago on what I thought was YouTube. There are many entries for it there but just tried half a dozen of them and while they still last over an hour they consist of nothing but an age certificate or a random studio logo. Has it been taken down by a DR notice?

            So sorry Padawan, can’t help you at all.

          • shay simmons

            I can only find a link that will let you stream it for $3.99 USD.

          • Acleron

            Wakefield needs more money.

          • Michael McCarthy
          • Thank you.

            Just want to double check that this is the VAXXED film, is it?

          • Michael McCarthy

            I think so. Appears to be a pirated copy.

          • Sonja Henie

            Sorry, not me!

          • demodocus

            ?Que?

          • That’s not the #Vaxxed Film, is it?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes.

          • Kay. Just double-checking.

          • Mike Stevens

            Tell as many people as you can. If they watch it for free online, they won’t be feeding coins into Wakefraud’s gaping maw.

          • I’ve shoved it on both my wordpress blog and on my tumblr.

            Ripping it apart will have to wait – cos real life.

          • yeppers. all for your comedic enjoyment.

          • Or….like I did with the #HearUs videos…

            Rip them…

            https://youtu.be/gHhOn2hnqmI

          • shay simmons

            Movies don’t fall into the hierarchy of evidence.

          • Wren

            Well, if it’s in a movie…

          • Mike Stevens

            Kiko, I see you think a video produced by a convicted scientific fraudster about a CDC researcher [which doesn’t even feature the subject of the film] constitutes scientific “proof” that MMR causes autism.
            I am not really surprised, considering your general standard of evidence.

          • Charybdis

            I posted this yesterday in another thread, but I thought I’d ask the anti-vaxxers what they thought of my legitimate vaccine reaction. JBK, Sabel? Thoughts? Should I report it?
            I got my flu shot today. After I got home, I started a load of laundry. When it hit the rinse/spin cycle, I heard what can be described as a waterfall in my kitchen. (The laundry is on the second floor). I had water pouring from the ceiling around one of the recessed lights. Currently waiting on plumber to ascertain the cause of Niagra Falls in my kitchen.

            Think it was a vaccine injury? *wrings hands and paces*

          • Mike Stevens

            So soon after the shot?
            Try telling me that is just “coincidence”!

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            No, that is not a legitimate vaccine injury. There are professionals who can help you though.

          • Who?

            How can you say that for certain it wasn’t the vax? Are you in the pocket of Big Handyman??????

          • Charybdis

            Are you sure? I mean, I got the flu shot, then my washing machine had issues and caused a waterfall in my kitchen. It is OBVIOUS the flu shot is responsible for that. Maybe if I hadn’t gotten the flu shot, it wouldn’t have happened.

            No. I think you are MOST DEFINITELY WRONG about it not being a vaccine injury. Coincidental? I think not.

          • suz norkan

            Sounds like a severe case of pettypatheticplatitudism to me! πŸ˜‰

          • Charybdis

            Nope, sorry. I’m firmly convinced that the flu shot caused it. I ran the washing machine the day before the flu shot and everything was just fine. No waterfall in the kitchen. I got the flu shot and THE NEXT LOAD OF LAUNDRY I PUT IN TO WASH caused the waterfall in the kitchen. Clearly the flu shot is to blame as it was the only thing that was different. I need to contact VAERS.

          • suz norkan

            Reiteration of ridiculous, repetitive redundancy!

          • Azuran

            But how can you be so sure it’s not the flu vaccine!!!! Charbdis has an ethical obligation to report it to VAERS.
            A baby on the ground next tot he machine could drown. Damn all those vaccines, parents need to be informed!!!!!!

          • suz norkan

            See comment #2928219!

          • Azuran

            OMG I CANT FIND IT. Obviously that means you are a vaccine shill!!!!! you want to prevent Charybdis from reporting her very serious vaccine injury so you can keep making money!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • suz norkan

            The fact that YOU can’t find it, along with your foolish and histrionic dog and pony show, speaks more to YOUR lack of intellect than anything else!

          • Azuran

            Oh, sorry, after reading your comments, I was under the impression that this was a competition in who could vomit the most stupidity in the shortest amount of time.

          • suz norkan

            Should such have been the case, YOU would have certainly won, hands down!

          • Azuran

            Yay!!! Now will you share your vaxxer shill money with me?

          • suz norkan

            You’ll have your wins when you DO come across a ‘who could vomit the most stupidity in the shortest amount of time,’ contest! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            Well, you really have to try and stop spouting nonsense and stupidity if you won’t want people thinking you are doing it on purpose.

          • suz norkan

            See comment #2928434! πŸ˜‰

          • Charybdis

            Oh, no. You have been serving the most random offerings of word salad with disjointed, egomaniacal dressing and making fun of my LEGITIMATE VACCINE INJURY. I mean, since the vaccine and it’s subsequent kitchen flooding, my kitchen has not been the same.

          • Azuran

            Let me guess. Your kitchen is somehow ‘dull’

          • Charybdis

            It’s like it’s not even the same kitchen. πŸ™ All the light went out of it.

          • suz norkan

            Oh no! More philistine and pointless platitude pilfered from internetslang and urban DlC!

          • Azuran

            My dog is epileptic. It was 100% vax free when he started having it.
            I adopted it a few months ago, gave it it’s first shots ever, and since I vaccinated him, he had 0 seizures!!!!!

            Anti-vaxxers and big pharma would want me to believe that it’s because of the anti-seizure medication he’s been put on.
            But that’s because a full year supply of phenobarbital is more expensive than the vaccine. Even more so because you can’t just give the pill, you have to do frequent blood test to make sure the blood concentration of phenobarbital is in the ‘therapeutic’ level.
            And phenobarbital has hepatic side effect and can cause severe hepatopathy or hepatis failure, which require biannual hepatic pannels as well. And then my dog will probably die younger, so I’ll have to get a new one and give more money to Evil Big Vet!!!!
            It’s all a sham to make money!!!!
            VACCINES CURES EPILEPSY!!!!!! WALE UP SHEPPLES!!!!!

          • Clearly, you haven’t gotten any less stupid since your last account was banned.

          • demodocus

            Andromeda Strain was better

          • Nick Sanders

            Never saw the movie. The book was ok, but I got distracted by it dropping ominous foreshadowings that it completely forgot about immediately afterwards.

          • demodocus

            eh, i only skimmed both

          • That’s a *claim*.

          • Your one in 45 number is bogus, as has been shoved down your throat and up your butt a thousand times already, jeffie/kiko.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Almost positive I was not talking to you either, what is this, attack of the special needs shills?

          • And your evidence that anyone here is paid would be what?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            You are the evidence.

          • That’s an assertion – I’m looking for evidence.

          • Nick Sanders

            What is this, an elementary playground? Are you rubber and she glue? Are we gonna do “Yo mamma” jokes?

            Actually, I like “Yo mamma” jokes. And they’d be far more productive than talking to you. So, hey, people of Skeptical OB, got any good “Yo mamma”s?

          • Charybdis

            I’ve got a couple of good ones….

            “Yo mamma so fat that the Sorting Hat put her in the Waffle House!”

          • Roadstergal

            I’d thought I’d heard them all, but that one made me sporfle.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            If Nick Sanders Mama was a cheeseburger, she’d be the double fister.

          • Michael McCarthy

            So, hey, people of Skeptical OB, got any good “Yo mamma”s?

            This is a science site, right? Then:
            Your mamma’s so fat she has mass whether the higgs boson exists or not.

          • Nick Sanders

            Glorious.

          • Then you’ll have no trouble linking to where I posted my paycheque, internal instruction document or testable falsifiable definitions that runs both ways then! Get on with it.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            You claim you are not being paid, the burden of proof is on you.

          • I don’t recall claiming I wasn’t being paid. I simply asked you for evidence of it.

            And that’s now how it works.

          • Roadstergal

            I say you are a pharma shill, being paid to encourage the return of VPDs and make money on treatment (far more expensive than prevention, that’s for sure!). The burden of proof that you aren’t is on you.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Sounds good, I am on it.

          • Mike Stevens

            He’s certainly pro-disease, which draws in $$squillions for BigPharma, so I figure you are right.

          • shay simmons

            You claim you are not being paid, the burden of proof is on you.

            Nope. Burden of proof is on the person who originally made the claim.

            “The person making the claim always bears the burden and is responsible for providing supporting evidence, especially when their claim goes against the generally accepted wisdom.”

          • Mike Stevens

            Are you paid to kill babies, Kiko? You have said you’d kill half a million without hesitation, remember?

            The burden of proof is now on you to show you are NOT being paid.
            (see how it works…not?)

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            What about when I pretended to be a
            Dr. Mikey? Oh, wait, that was you.

          • Mike Stevens

            Nope, it was you who pretended, Kiko. Glad you raised the point again.
            Here you are, expounding on your “clinical experience” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f758d42fdf87b698817fabcde67b96ce1b9b12e6f78198abca35f6bdeadf5cd6.jpg

          • JoeFarmer

            I remember that post! Glad you saved it.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Mikey busted again, the comment right next to it shows I linked to the Drs youtube channel. Thanks for verifying your manipulation tactics though, you show a pattern of dishonest behavior and are not to be taken seriously. I talked about Dr. Paul in many comments. Pants on fire Mikey. You are a habitual liar.

          • ~ liz ~

            “the comment right next to it shows I linked to “

            No, dear. Your comments on that article have all been deleted.

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/benswannfulldisclosure/truth_in_media_cdc_vaccines_and_autism/

            That’s what happens when Disqus terminates a user’s account.

          • suz norkan

            What a dud and debacle THAT was! He’s still parading that ‘butt hurt’ around!

            Wonder if Mikey’s going to do the same with the parodied ‘suz gives up’ disaster, that has since been debunked by a group of his peers. Har d har!

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            If there is a lie to tell, Mikey will be there.

          • suz norkan

            Stop misrepresenting his/her comments, MIkey! In an answer to an INSANE proposal, j/b/k honestly answered that they may kill 500,000 to save their own child. Parents can only IMAGINE what they’d do in such a situation. We’d like to think we are gunga din but in reality, most may certainly kill many unknowns to save their own child!

            The bop for the shill thang is o.t., continuing to allow the onus of *vax safety* to be on the mfg’s, health officials, legal proponents, and all others who persevere in promoting the disinformation that vax injuries are rare!

          • ibid.

            “If I had a button that would kill 500,000 people to save my daughter from descending into ‘autism’ whatever that is, I would push it feverishly and without hesitation” ~ Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/98d6008e326f52272a976bd60209b1e3d50f4104a52a39808c2d484add0f0649.jpg

            Upvoted by psychotroll Scuz Norkan.

          • suz norkan

            Well HELLO, gunga din!

            Further, leave it to those promoting mandatory pro vax to attempt to ad hom opponents by maligning those with true and serious m.h. issues, by using such issues as fodder for petty insult!

          • ibid.

            It is neither an ad hom or a petty insult, Fifi. These are statements of fact which may help others understand your unintelligible rants.

          • ibid.

            +1 for the visual aids. Thanks, Marbles =)

          • -Marbles.

          • suz norkan

            Ibid just told you to STOP, ‘no marbles!’

            IT chastised you only moments ago!

            Have ‘at’ it, grasshopper! πŸ˜‰

          • Yes, so? Do you imagine Ibid is my boss?

          • suz norkan

            ‘Shoot straight, fly right and stay on target,’ grasshopper! πŸ˜‰

          • suz norkan

            Oh! Yeah! Thanks for more WITLESS, spammy memes! Children on the playground!

          • suz norkan

            Sorry, reasonable facsimile of Borings, but suz doesn’t need to rant.

            But the faux pas remains that you just committed an ad hom, using m.h. issues as petty insult; as done by MANY of you mandatory pro vaxers!

            Wish I had the time to stay and play with you, ibid! Alas, I do NOT!

            However, even if i did, I certainly wouldn’t do so on the this bully playground!

            Mwah!
            Love, suz! πŸ˜‰

          • Nick Sanders

            You mean like when Jeff called people “special needs”?

          • suz norkan

            You’re outta’ your league, ‘not ready for prime time’ vax wars.

            Suz doesn’t condone disparaging those with mental illness from either side.

          • Nick Sanders

            Then maybe you should go tell Jeff that. Because so far, you are only admonishing one side.

          • suz norkan

            I just GOT here, darlin’! But believe me, I’m already on my way out of this childish mess!

            However, to reiterate for you illiterate, ‘suz does NOT condone the disparagement of those suffering mental illness from EITHER side!’

            Additionally, the term ‘special needs’ is widely accepted as use for ANY type of disability! There are many KINDS of special needs!

          • Nick Sanders

            Translation: “I condemn it, except when I make excuses for it.”

          • suz norkan

            You’d make a very POOR translator, and just like Mikey, and your pro vax friends, you have great inclinations to ‘put words in others mouths,’ misrepresent your opponent’s comments, or outright LIE in your petty attempts to advance your pov!

          • Nick Sanders

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/09/how-betrayal-aversion-makes-anti-vaxxers-more-afraid-of-vaccine-complications-than-of-disease.html#comment-2925092516

            what is this, attack of the special needs shills?

            Additionally, the term ‘special needs’ is widely accepted as use for ANY type of disability! There are many KINDS of special needs!

            What a robust condemnation of using mental health as a slur when your friend is doing it. However could I have mistaken you for someone trying to song and dance your way out of actually applying the standard equally like you claimed?

          • Meh. I only flagged it because of the shill comment.

          • suz norkan

            See! Now if you weren’t such a newb, you’d already know that suz will NOT open links from opponents, especially from sites such as this!

            Suz is her own drummer, nickie!

            You’re embarrassing yourself!

          • Nick Sanders

            The link is to another comment on the same page, and I’m the newb because you refuse to look at it? Man, I thought the others were egotistical but this is a whole new level of narcissism.

          • MaineJen

            Yeah, Nick…you newb. Totally never seen you here before.

          • Nick Sanders

            How dare I not recognize the great and powerful Suz!

          • Charybdis

            Just like in The Wizard of Oz: “Pay no attention to the Suz behind the curtain!”

          • suz norkan

            Owie! I’m mortally wounded! πŸ˜‰ Oh! And a big word too!

            Your ‘newbieism’ is certainly showing if you think any of this mild mannered commentary here is even CLOSE to suz’s usual magnificence.

            Now focus, darlin’!

          • demodocus

            Suz should realize that around here Suz is a newbie and Nick is an oldtimer. How is Nick supposed to know what you do or don’t?
            Demodocus is not only her own drummer, she is also her own pianist and alto section

          • suz norkan

            Just like suz knows of this site and the players who PLAY here!

            However, while I prefer not to visit such venues on my own, I’ll occasionally follow some with similar povs through the back door!

            While suz is not only her own drummer, she’s dated many, married the lead guitarist and sang professionally. What’s your point, deocus!

            I simply answered nickie’s comment above, that while I may upvote someone with a similar pov, such upvote would NOT denote that I agree with a post in it’s entirety.

            I make it a point to purposefully NOT upvote those who malign individuals who suffer from mental health issues; regardless of any specific affiliation to the vax war!

            To suz, m.h. concerns usually always stem from a medical impairment and health should be NO different above the eyebrows, than below it.

            My apologies in advance, if someone can find where I’ve left any such upvote slip!

            My OWN drummer, darlin’, deocus! πŸ˜‰

          • demodocus

            Demodocus, Dah’in’, was the blind bard in the Odyssey. The reason for this nickname is that my husband uses it for audio gaming. He’s a blind man who writes music for a hobby and digs Homer. The reason why he’s blind is because his mother caught rubella when she was pregnant with him. I couldn’t think of a pseudonym, so I borrowed his.

            Oh, and as far disability goes, I’ve never noticed Nick mocking anyone else’s. Several folks here have PPD, physical impairments, and/or ASD. I have 2 of these. Nick only mocks parachuters

          • suz norkan

            It IS sad that you were too witless to come up with your own sobriquet, deocus, darlin’!

            And suz norkan as in soos norkaan as in licha hericane as in like a hurricane, doesn’t care if you’re the ‘white’ in ‘white on rice!

            Suz doesn’t mock those with disabilities!

          • demodocus

            Yet you just called me stupid. Perhaps I am, because I do not understand your second sentence at all.
            By the way, I simply was too depressed to bother and now that I’m under treatment for my suicidal thoughts but everybody knows this is me, I don’t feel like changing it. But please, continue explaining how loosing my hearing to a common childhood illness is better than getting a vaccination.

          • suz norkan

            Sorry! I didn’t realize I was on a ‘cookies n milk,’ crybaby support group blog.

            Odd how none of you ‘crybaby’ for the vax injured!

            To be specific, I said that you lacked wit [hopefully, for you, that time has passed; but doubtful given your present replies] which is NOT the same as lacking intellect!

          • demodocus

            probably because the vast majority of “injuries” claimed by anti-vaxxers are not caused by vaccines. The MMR helps prevent mental disability by keeping mothers from contracting rubella, which has long been known to cause brain problems.

          • suz norkan

            While I STILL won’t yet say that you lack intellect, I WILL opine that you’re severely misinformed!

            sidebar: I haven’t noticed any anti vaxers posting here!

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, there’s you, Jeff, sabelmouse, and Dietdee.

          • suz norkan

            Show of hands; who’s ‘anti vax’ or anti MANDATORY vax!

            Exclamation point for rhetorical question! Suz already KNOWS the answer!

          • Azuran

            Question! Is referring to yourself in the third person a vaccine injury that yous sustained? Have you reported it to VAERS?

          • suz norkan

            Question! Are your poor grammar/spelling skills and frequent typos from an injury and if so, have you made a claim with the nvicp!

            Again, rhetorical question! I see I’m dealing with children here!

          • Azuran

            Well, I’m actually 27, but yea, I can still be a child at heart and like messing with imbeciles. I just don’t think a stupid discussion with an idiot like you is worth the additional 3 seconds to check my spelling.
            English is also just not my first language. So unless you consider being French a Vaccine injury, I think I’ll pass on reporting it.

          • suz norkan

            Like I said, ‘children!’ The nvicp will record your clam, regardless of your poor english skills!

          • Azuran

            So you are saying that being french is a vaccine injury? I sure hope you don’t consider VAERS to be a reputable source then

          • suz norkan

            I do NOT; along with the cdc, fda, or even the dsm!

            However, YOU brought up the premise of your ‘frenchiness’ being a vax injury!

          • Azuran

            How do you know it’s not?

          • suz norkan

            Work on your remedial english, azu, then perhaps you’ll obtain the ability to have coherent and comprehensible communication!

          • Azuran

            So far, you are the only one who seems to have trouble understanding me. Maybe it’s a vaccine injury. You should have yourself checked.

          • suz norkan

            I’d consider the source [site & regulars] if I were you! The ‘vax injury’ appears to be YOURS, azu!

            Suz has NO VAX! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            Ah, So you believe me to be vax injured. So is it being French or the less than perfect grammar in my second language that is a vaccine injury?
            And really, are you 100% sure that you are not vaxxed? Those vaxx gnomes probably got you when you were a baby.

          • suz norkan

            To reiterate for you illiterate, YOU brought up the premise of your english being a secondary language, so perhaps the fact that ‘french’ is your primary, [your pathetic excuse that your grammar sucks] may qualify you as vax injured.

            I only steered you to file a claim with the nvicp, if that’s what YOU thought! πŸ˜‰

            Suz is much, much older than you and has NO VAX!

          • Azuran

            So…….you want a double blind placebo study to figure out my primary language? You think that I’d lie about it? I’d like to see you try and speak french with proper grammar. If you can’t, clearly that means you are vax injured.

          • suz norkan

            It means no such thing! Go ask mommy to explain it to you!

          • Azuran

            I can’t. My mommy is also vax injured.
            She got vaccinated, then started talking about herself in the third person, then her washing machine had a reaction just like Charybdis’s washer did and leaked water everywhere on the floor, then she slipped on it and hit her head on the kitchen counter.

          • suz norkan

            You poor dears! Yall should certainly file claims with the ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp!

          • Azuran

            I will, when you’ll have yourself checked for vaccine injury

          • suz norkan

            I’m not the one crying about vax injury! YOU are, darlin’!

            Suz has no injury and no vax!

            But knock yourself out filing your claims for you and mommy with the ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp!

          • Azuran

            You might also want to check out what ‘trolling’ means.
            Maybe the fact that you cant figure it out is another vaccine injury. Like I said, you don’t need to be vaxxed, many unvaxxed people have reported vaccine injuries

          • suz norkan

            I know what trolling means and you self admittedly ARE 100% off topic troll.

            Further, your statement is beyond ridiculous!

            You likely mean vax ‘injured!’ Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about, azu!

          • Azuran

            Of course my statements are ridiculous, I’m trolling. If you understood what trolling means, you wouldn’t be telling me to come back when I had a clue. I am purposefully posting stupid things to make you waste your time. And it’s totally working.
            Really, have yourself checked.

          • suz norkan

            I’m just having some great fun on my coffee breaks! πŸ˜‰

            And suz is only more engaged in the comic relief you provide, in that you’re TROLLING your own site with your off topic garbage, darlin’!

            Don’t forget to get your claims into the ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp!

          • Azuran

            Your coffee breaks sure are long, is it because you are vax injuried that you get such long breaks?

          • MaineJen

            I think third-person suz is really going off the rails…the ‘darlins’ are flowing like cheap wine from a box. I can practically see the spittle flying from his/her lips when he/she sputters ‘flawed law facade’.

          • sabelmouse

            you ARE amusing!

          • Azuran

            Also, my mom doesn’t speak english. She she can’t really understand anything that you are saying πŸ˜‰

          • suz norkan

            Try the courses in remedial reading/writing I’d suggested! Suz is ALWAYS glad to be of assistance! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            Maybe her inability to learn english is due to her vax injury.

          • suz norkan

            Again, ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp!

          • Azuran

            And at the very least, I don’t reference myself in the third person. Maybe you should also work on your English and communication πŸ˜‰

          • suz norkan

            See if ‘ya have the balls to take up such issue with ‘doktorzoom’ and many others, who often use various amounts of poetic license within their communications! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            What, you think yourself a poet now?
            Poetic license is not something that earns you point in science, honey.

          • suz norkan

            Your recess time is over and your mommy is calling you, azu!

            It’s painfully obvious that you don’t have the intellect to spar with me!

            As I relayed to one of your pals yesterday, you’re clearly ‘not ready for prime time,’ in these vax wars! You are truly embarrassing yourself!

            ‘Shoot straight, fly right and stay on target,’ HON! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            It’s cute that you actually think I’m sparing with you. I’m very obviously 100% trolling you. You are not worth me making any use of my intellect.
            But hey, the fact that you can’t see that might be a vaccine injury. Seriously, have yourself checked out.

          • suz norkan

            You don’t have the capacity to debate me!

            Suz has neither an injury nor vax!

            However, any nonpartisan individuals reading along, given the substance of your posts, will agree that you are 100% for o.t. TROLL behavior! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            Got any proof that you need a vax to be vax injuried? Because I’ve red on a lot of anti-vaxxers blog that that vaccines can cause vaccine injuries throught shedding or cross through 7 generation.
            Seriously, get yourself checked

          • suz norkan

            Seriously, take a remedial english reading/writing course! Perhaps you’ll be better prepared to interpret what you’re reading!

            I’ve already offered that it’s doubtful any anti vax are posting here! You’re severe lack of comprehension is likely a big part of your problems.

            At the very least, readers will be able to more clearly understand what you puke up in your off topic trolling!

          • Maud Pie

            If I were offered a choice of superpowers, I would choose the power to make arrogant ignoramuses see the foolishness of their statements.

          • Acleron

            That’s cruel.

          • suz norkan

            Oh! Hmm! Superpowers! Okay then! Moving on, darlin’! πŸ˜‰

          • Azuran

            What, it’s true, I saw it on VAERS, someone because the Hulk after a vaccine.

          • suz norkan

            Hulk should file a claim with the ‘flawed law facade’ of the nvicp! πŸ˜‰

          • MaineJen

            General question…what is doktorzoom and what does it have to do with anything? Also: poetic license and gibberish are two distinct entities. We all realize which side you fall on, darlin.

          • Wren

            Azuran, you are far more comprehensible than your opponent here.

          • Charybdis

            Azuran’s English is just fine. You are the one who seems to have problems with capitalization, proper pronoun usage and a propensity for excessive alliteration.

          • Nick Sanders

            Wait, if you don’t consider the DSM a reliable source, then how do you even define things like autism, let alone track their occurrence?

          • Nick Sanders

            Nobody here has proposed mandatory vaccinations. Yet the four of you are busy spreading lies in an attempt to disparage vaccines. So you can call yourself whatever you want, but your actions show your true colors.

          • suz norkan

            Good! To an astute observer, we comment on data that does not have coi’s or research which has NOT otherwise been corrupted or spun!

            Our actions show that we are anti MANDATORY vax, and yall can have as many invasive, prophylactic interventions as you please! πŸ˜‰

          • Just to be clear, suz.

            Compulsory vaccines =/= mandatory vaccines. And vaccine mandates are a third thing.

          • The term for that is ‘strawman fallacy’.

          • suz norkan

            Har d har! You pro vax children and your erred fallacies! Thanks for the giggle. no marbles! πŸ˜‰

          • Suz, I’m helping you here.

          • suz norkan

            I’m sure you think you’re doing great things, marbles!

            sidebar: If any of you here know ‘purple wowies,’ please tell them that evie adored them on a.s. and that I always wondered and hoped that their surgery went well, and that even to THIS day, that I think of them often; despite the *diversity* in many of our povs.

          • Ok.

          • suz norkan

            TY! <3

          • MaineJen

            Suz does, however, refer to herself in the third person. Why does Suz do this?

          • suz norkan

            For the same reason doktorzoom and many, many others do; ’cause we damn well FEEL like it!

          • Mike Stevens
          • ibid.

            From an account which was deleted by Disqus Support for harassment.

            I’m glad you caught that, Mike.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you’d also want to “push the button” to kill 500,000 innocent people if you had the choice, Suz.
            I never thought any different.
            You, Cia and Kiko.
            A trifecta of genocidal maniacs.

          • suz norkan

            And I’m sure a lying coward like you is certainly NO gunga din, Mikey!

          • Mike Stevens

            And just to put a perspective on this comment, here is what David thought about Kiko’s dollop of excrement:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4a5c2871c2e5c78b336e269f829a88d1630035372fae2c7b1f3c92cfbde0712a.jpg

          • suz norkan

            You likely meant your erred retort to be directed to david.

            Suz is suz; NOT david!

            Whoa! Major slippage, Mikey! πŸ˜‰

          • Mike Stevens

            Only “slippage” in your mind, Scuz.
            I meant that you needed to see what people like David said about your pal Kiko’s comments, to get a bit of perspective.
            If it horrified David, then consider your own view as being so way out there that it’s in another galaxy.

          • suz norkan

            Slippage! Suz is NOT david!

            While I enjoy many things about david, his character and his writings, I share a different fondness for kiko and his/her persona and writings!

            Unlike you, I embrace diversity, Mikey! Anything less is boring!

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Put my comment into the appropriate context, Jenny Higgs said something to the effect that my child was worth sacrificing to save that number people. I disagreed with extreme prejudice. Lying Mikey.

          • You know you’ve wandered way off the reservation when even a scientist-wannabe like Foster is criticizing your stupidity.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Your claim, your burden, cough it up.

          • You’re the one that claimed I was paid, dear.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Are you paid to comment here?

          • Your assertion, your burden of proof.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Refusal to answer means yes.

          • No, it doesn’t. It is a refusal to answer, nothing more or less.

            Do YOU have any evidence that I’m getting paid?

          • Ivan

            And *blocked*

            Just as fucking annoying as the trolls.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            20 cents a comment?

          • What would be the point of that? And again, what specific vaccine manufacturer do you think I’m shilling for?

            If that was the case, the maths would work out like this:

            20 cents x 13448 comments = 268 960 U.S cents.

            2689.60 dollars over three years.

            896 dollars a year

            74 dollars a month

            10 dollars a week

            Or about 1 dollar and 50 cents a day.

            Except I’m in the UK (again, other countries besides the US exist)

            Or about 1 pound and 16 pence.

            Plus bank charges for foreign currency – so what would be the point.

            Can you narrow it down to a specific manufacturer?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            So how much do you get per comment then?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Not nearly as much as you get for your comments. Aren’t Wakefield and Mercola paying you as much as $300/day to troll pro-vaccine websites and leave comments?

            Prove that you are not on the take. It will be hard since it impossible to imagine that anyone is stupid enough — even you — to believe the nonsense you post.

            Until you prove that you aren’t getting checks from Wakefield and Mercola I’m afraid we’ll be forced to conclude that you are.

          • Roadstergal

            “Refusal to answer means yes.” :p

          • Your claim, your job to prove it.

          • ibid.
          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            You claim you are not paid, now prove it.

          • Nick Sanders

            Look, buddy, you claimed she was paid. Until you provide evidence for that claim, she is under no obligation to provide counter-evidence. She’s not the one making a claim, you are.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Ok. I will be real good from now on.

          • What specific vaccine manufacturer do you think I am shilling for?

          • ibid.

            No really. Please sto.

            And I wish people would stop encouraging this with upvotes.

          • ibid.

            Please stop.

          • Stop touching yourself.

          • ibid.

            Stop

          • It’s a public forum. If you don’t want to get attacked, stop posting bullshΓ―t from sock puppet accounts.

          • Nick Sanders

            I said 1 in 45 autistic because of the vaccine.

            Just because you said it, doesn’t make it true.

          • Hired those independent scientists yet?

        • shay simmons

          Holy carp…Jeff/Bridget/Kiko thinks 45 is greater than 500.

          • Charybdis

            Homeopathic math?

          • Sonja Henie

            It is, in his/her alternate universe!

      • So how long will this sock account survive, kiko? What’s your alleged background for this one? Student activist? Doctor running an infectious disease lab? Parent of a “vaccine-injured” child? I can hardly wait to hear.

        • Sonja Henie

          Jeff, Bridget, Kiko alternative, eh?

        • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

          Yes.

          • Yes what? Which troll are you portraying this time around?

        • shay simmons

          Was this the same one that claimed she was a high school girl forced to get the HPV vaccine?

          • No, I thought that was grace, now vaccinesafety.

          • Sonja Henie

            And I thought it was ione murphy, now ionesky or some such! It wasn’t Jeff/Kiko/Bridgit, I’m pretty sure.

          • Oh, you might be right. I get them all mixed up. They all post meaningless and irrelevant walls of text, so I get them confused. One or the other.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yeah, I agree.

          • kfunk937

            I think that was ione murphy, who could also not account for her other tweets self-IDing as a “concerned” grandmother in her 50s.

            It’s so hard to keep their stories straight.

          • Sonja Henie

            Too true!

  • This very strongly reminds me of seatbelt resistance. It’s absolutely demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they save lives, but no amount of data can overcome “BUT WHAT IF I’M TRAPPED IN MY CAR!?”

    • Sean Jungian

      Or the people who constantly rely on the anecdotes of “he/she was thrown from the vehicle and that’s the only thing that saved his/her life!!”

      • Yes, I’ve seen that comment even when being restrained in their seat would have been perfectly safe. I wonder what they would say in cases when being thrown from the car led to the (former) occupant being hit by other traffic or killed by impact with another object. No, I don’t wonder — it would be “people die wearing their seatbelts, too.”

      • Clorinda

        My mom is the perfect example of both sides. In one accident, she would have been decapitated if belted in, instead of merely dragged into the backseat by the roof of the car. In another accident, she could have gone through the windshield if she was NOT wearing a seat belt but fortunately was and only got a few bruises and some whiplash.

  • Amy

    I get this intellectually, but my heart still doesn’t. I just can’t relate to people who would rather their child die from a VPD than possibly develop autism, and that’s assuming their ridiculous claim that vaccines cause autism. And I’ve worked with kids from all portions of the spectrum from ridiculously high-achieving to needing a lot of support, in case anyone parachutes in to tell me that I don’t know what it’s like.

    • Diet dee

      In the US death from VPD seems very unlikely. Whereas Autism in children is approaching 2% of the population and childhood asthma and allergies are becoming normal

      • Guest

        When you’ve spent your entire life with asthma and allergies, they are already normal.

      • Wren

        Seems. That’s a really important word here. Death or serious complications are still possible, with the likelihood increasing if people choose not to vaccinate.

        Autism is not caused by vaccines. There are so many studies that tried to find a link and failed. Autism rates should not play into vaccination decisions at all.

        Asthma? Allergies? Where is the evidence those are caused by vaccines?

      • demodocus

        seems. Besides, its not just death, its also impairment. My husband’s blind because of congenital rubella. As I’ve told you before.

        My father was diagnosed with asthma as a small boy in the 40s. My sister and i were both diagnosed with it in the 70s.

      • Amy

        That MIGHT be true, IF we accepted that autism and allergies were as bad as dying. They’re not. To equate them is immoral.

        • Diet dee

          Others do not think as you do. And what do you think is the chance if dying from measles in the USA.

          • Amy

            It doesn’t matter what I THINK the rate is. There is a rate, and off the top of my head I don’t know it. I do know that if you think it is better to be dead than live with autism or allergies, you’re a bad person with a seriously out of whack moral compass.

          • Diet dee

            Everyone gets to decide what risk that they can live with. A kid is more likely to die in a pool than die from measles. But parent will still take them swimming

          • Box of Salt

            Swimming has benefits. Measles does not.

            Swimming can be done while reducing its risks.

            The only way to reduce the risks from measles is to avoid it – get the vaccine.

          • MaineJen

            “A kid is more likely to die in a pool than die from measles.” BECAUSE. WE. VACCINATE. AGAINST. MEASLES. NOW. Look at that, you made me use all caps.

          • “Everyone gets to decide what risk they can live with.” Sure. But you don’t get to decide imaginary risks vs real risks.

            If you want to decide to drive drunk because it’s the only way to prevent yourself from being gored by unicorns…there’s a reason it’s not going to end well.

            Oh, and did you ask your kids what risk they could live with, btw?

          • Amy

            But they can’t force other parents to push their kids into the pool. That’s what you’re doing when you don’t vaccinate and then take your kids out in public.

          • Nick Sanders

            What risk they live with. Not what risk those around them live with. They don’t get to put their kids into harm’s way, and they don’t get to make themselves a danger to others. Deal with it.

          • Yes. You get to decide what to do with your body.

            Society gets to impose rules on society’s schools though.

            And again, YOU are free to REFUSE vaccines (though that may come with consequences) – YOU are an adult and I don’t care what happens to you. If you want to be a martyr, go ahead.

            YOUR CHILDREN, however, and hold tight because this is a difficult concept: Your children are NOT you. They deserve protection even if that means we have to protect them from you.

            Same reason that Bob can whip himself if he wants but he’s not necessarily allowed to whip his children.

          • Wren

            Do you personally believe autism and allergies are as bad as dying?

          • Diet dee

            I would rather risk dying from a VPD (because it is a very small chance in my country) over autism which is very common

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            (because it is a very small chance in my country)

            Only because people in your country vaccinate. So you believe that vaccination causes autism, and won’t get vaccinated, but you count on others to be doing it. IOW, you are counting on others to risk (in your mind) getting autism so that you don’t have to.

            There’s one word to describe someone like you: Asshole.

            You mooch off society, and don’t give back. You’re a total asshole.

          • Azuran

            except it’s not a real choice. Vaccines don’t cause autism.
            Whether or not you get autism is not related to vaccine. You are either born with autism or not, and then you can either get yourself vaccinated or risk dying of a VPD regardless of if you have autism or not.

          • Just homeschool.

          • Apart from the fact that you comprise herd immunity – I don’t give a damn what you do. You’re an adult – I don’t care what happens to you.

            However, your children are not you! They deserve protection even if that means we have to protect them from you.

            Why are you refusing to protect your grandkids from CRS which is a known cause of autism?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/95e25c72c9da10f780a72073158784ca3e4b0bcba989270c90d96945733e575a.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/979a7591fcb9d270e9da429faad9e056962f7a4c458cd8a346b0384bb30b2c13.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/29caa8b67460692ece417e17b1c050466879eb42ebcff7f3720d50b0722c9212.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c130cc76eddfc381705d7df2933291f86edfba653b15beef3bb6a93b92945cdd.png

          • Wren

            That didn’t answer my question.

            Do you believe autism is as bad as death? More to the point, do you believe a child with autism is as bad as a dead child?

          • Then you’re nothing but a freeloader in a society of mostly responsible vaccinators who are protecting you and your special snowflakes.

          • Nick Sanders

            Which means nothing, because the two risks are unrelated.

          • Depends how many idiots continue to perpetuate the myth that vaccine risk is anywhere near that of the diseases they prevent.

          • And other people do not think like me with regard to whether faeries live at the bottom of the garden and whether leprechauns hand out pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. It’s a scientific question – beliefs don’t matter. 1+1 = 2, even if it’s the fondest belief of your heart that it equals 3.

            Vaccines causing autism is the same thing – what you believe is highly irrelevant – they don’t. Also, regardless of your opinion on the matter, they do work and they are safe. Doesn’t matter what we think – MMR does prevent autism via preventing CRS.

            You have two choices if you wish reality to align with your opinions:

            1)Go prove that universal widespread scientific fraud.
            2)Go talk to the microbes and persuade them to stop being dangerous.

          • Nick Sanders

            Dying isn’t the only thing that measles can do to you though. It can leave you deaf, or brain damaged. It can leave you open to secondary pneumonia, which, if it kills you, will be listed as the cause of death, rather than measles. And it has a 1 in 4 chance of hospitalizing you.

            Oh, and it royally fucks up your immune system for up to three years afterwards.

          • And it can erase immunity up to 12 months prior, did you know that?

          • Nick Sanders

            Prior? How?

          • Well…that was supremely badly worded.

            What measles can do is erase immunity up to 12 months prior to the measles infection.

            So if you get say….chickenpox at say….2 years old and then you get measles at I dunno… 2 1/2 years old? Suprise! Now , your body ‘forgot’ how fighting chickenpox works. So no immunity to chickenpox

            And then there’s the immune suppression afterwards. It’s a nasty little bugger of a microbe.

          • Nick Sanders

            Oh, ok, now I understand what you meant.

          • No, no problem. Entirely my fault.

      • Azuran

        But vaccines does not cause autism, so it doesn’t matter whatever the rate is.

        • sabelmouse

          always good to have a laugh, eh?

          • Mike Stevens

            Feel free to post the proof vaccines cause autism anytime, Sabel…
            5 years I’ve been waiting for someone to do so, and I’m getting rather impatient.

          • JBK alternative
          • Mike Stevens

            The first is a primarily hypothetical exploration of the role of things like heavy metals in autism. Since vaccines contain only trace quantities of mercury compounds, and since even when the doses were higher they have not been shown to be linked to autism, this argument is rather specious and irrelevant.

            The second link is to a blog, citing people like Wakefield et al. Need I say more?

            …..still waiting for the scientific proof…still not forthcoming.

          • JBK alternative

            “citing people like Wakefield et al. Need I say more?”
            Stop right there, yes, you need to say more.

            You are not expecting people to believe the media about Wakefield being a fraud are you?

            Or believe an investigative journalist that Wakefield is a fraud?

            Seems Wakefield has the ear of many politicians these days Mikey.

            Robert De Niro is making a movie involving the innocence of Wakefield, the District Attorney of San Antonio has come out in defense of Wakefield, the Vaxxed movie points out how the original Lancet study never even claimed a link between MMR and autism, more lies. Did the Lancet study claim a link Mikey? Yes or no?

          • Wren

            It truly does not matter what Wakefield’s study claimed, as it has been retracted. There are multiple scientific and ethical issues around it, and it has not been replicated.

            Robert De Niro is your new scientific expert now?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            “It truly does not matter what Wakefield’s study claimed, as it has been retracted.”

            Then why does the media keep telling the LIE LIE LIE LIE that the Lancet study claimed the MMR causes autism? I have the Lancet study right here, it says nothing of the sort.

            “Robert De Niro is your new scientific expert now?”

            He obviously has more expertise than any of you gang flagging, gang thumb upping, fake avatar, paid commenting pharma shills.

          • JoeFarmer

            You are a sociopath.

          • It doesn’t. It says that Wakefield claimed vaccines caused autism which he did. Just on the media circuit rather than in his paper.

            And your evidence anyone here is paid would be what? Can you narrow it down to a specific vaccine manufacturer?

          • Nick Sanders

            http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(97)11096-0/fulltext

            Rubella virus is associated with autism and the combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (rather than monovalent measles vaccine) has also been implicated. Fudenberg16 noted that for 15 of 20 autistic children, the first symptoms developed within a week of vaccination. Gupta17 commented on the striking association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and the onset of behavioural symptoms in all the children that he had investigated for regressive autism.

            We have identified a chronic enterocolitis in children that may be related to neuropsychiatric dysfunction. In most cases, onset of symptoms was after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Further investigations are needed to examine this syndrome and its possible relation to this vaccine.

          • Wren

            Damn. I still haven’t gotten that Pharma check.

          • Ahhh, another brand new sock account. Is this another Kiko/Jeffie incarnate? Either way, your status as a sock is duly noted.

            Wakefield’s fraud status has little to do with “the media” and plenty to do with the British General Medical Council’s findings. Nobody cares about Bigtree or Deniro, as neither knows sht about science or medicine. Apparently, either do you.

          • shay simmons

            “Apparently?

          • Nick Sanders

            Wakefield, whose sample size was 12? Who got those kids from a birthday party and paid them to let him perform an invasive procedure on them without the approval of an ethics board? Even if you don’t believe the (proven) claims of fraud by Deer, those facts are part of the “study” itself and completely indisputable. The former means his data was worthless even if he didn’t manipulate it, the latter means he’s extremely lucky he wasn’t thrown in jail.

          • Nick Sanders

            You are not expecting people to believe the media about Wakefield being a fraud are you?

            Media? No. Tribunal that revoked his license to practice medicine? Yes.

            Edi: Man, I can’t believe I missed such a juicy line the first time I read this comment. I hate replying twice to the same thing.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Done to protect the MMR program. We will see.

          • Nick Sanders

            So, what do you say to the fact that Wakefield held the patent on a competing vaccine, and had been paid by lawyers to find dirt on the MMR so they could make money? You allege corruption and greed, and yet ignore it when it’s staring you in the face.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            The patent Wakefield held was not in competition with the MMR, this is a demonstrable fact.
            “Wakefield was paid by lawyers to dig up dirt on the MMR.”
            Another demonstrably false statement. The Dean of the University signed the funding check not Wakefield. Would you like to see a picture of the check?
            Wakefield was to give expert testimony in court regarding the MMR vaccine, this is common practice.

          • Mike Stevens

            Kiko said:
            “Wakefield was paid by lawyers to dig up dirt on the MMR.”
            Another demonstrably false statement. The Dean of the University signed the funding check not Wakefield. Would you like to see a picture of the check?

            Yes, I’d like to see a pic of the cheque, thanks for obliging.

            That cheque was for Β£50,000 I understand. But Wakefield could not account for it or explain where the money went, remember?

            And the cheque from the lawyers had nothing to do with the University, Kiko. Wakefield kept that serious conflict of interest carefully from all his co-researchers and co-workers, and from the editors of the Lancet.
            And it netted him Β£439,553 (around $750,000 at the time), which he immediately trousered. What a nice man.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8ddc330e5a3408fe7553e7bad4ef0678c97e3f3298c84222243eaac4c1a4a2cc.jpg

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            I will now prove you blatantly lied (not the first time)
            Now Michael, you have claimed that lawyers funded the Lancet study, and that lawyers paid Wakefield. So, lets see what the actual facts are instead of what a paid shill like you pretends the facts are.
            The Lancet study was funded by the National Health Service. Fact.
            The compensation you show above Mikey is not from lawyers you lying POS, it is from a Government compensation fund. There were experts lining up to be on the other side to testify on behalf of the Pharmaceutical company. They singled Wakefield out because he was to provide expert testimony on behalf of the parents against the Pharmaceutical company.
            “Wakefield kept that serious conflict of interest carefully from all his
            co-researchers and co-workers, and from the editors of the Lancet.”
            The editor of the Lancet new over a year in advance of the publication of the paper about the legal proceedings. Fact.
            Because of this litigation, they isolated Wakefield, destroyed his career, and sent a clear message to any other Dr.s who would dare challenge the MMR program, that this will happen to you. Just look at the blatant easily demonstrated lies being told by all the media outlets about this story. They just regurgitate the same nonsense lie over and over. Well, that does not change the facts Mikey.
            Consider yourself debunked.

          • Mike Stevens

            How nice to be called a “lying POS” by you Kiko, and how ironic.
            Clearly you need some facts, rather than spouting a deluded rant.

            1. “Michael, you have claimed that lawyers funded the Lancet study”
            I never said that. If you say I did please give a link to the comment in which I did, and I’ll give $1000 to a charity of your choice.
            In fact, funding for the study came from various sources, but there was also a Β£55,000 grant from the Legal Aid Board, who are not “lawyers” as such but part of the legal aid division of the Ministry of Justice, and the grant was to look at the claims of MMR damage on some of the Lancet 12, but not all. Here is what Wakefield himself said:
            “I did not disclose to the Lancet that a minority of the 12 children in the 1998 Lancet report were also part of a quite separate study that was funded in part by the Legal Aid Board.”

            2. “The compensation you show above Mikey is not from lawyers you lying POS, it is from a Government compensation fund.”
            The system in the UK is a bit like that run by the NVICP. In the Wakefield case in the UK, lawyers (in this case Dawbarns Solicitors) roped him in as an expert witness for the plaintiffs in their legal case against MMR and for him to make a case against the vaccine. Wakefield charged the law firm Β£150 per hour, and the costs were then passed onto the Legal Aid Board which picked up the tab and paid off all the law firms costs and witness expenses ($750,000 for Wakefield alone).

            3. I claimed that “Wakefield kept that serious conflict of interest carefully from all his co-researchers and co-workers, and from the editors of the Lancet.”
            To which you said:
            “The editor of the Lancet new [sic] over a year in advance of the publication of the paper about the legal proceedings.”
            Please see #1 above. Wakefield claimed he saw some of the Lancet 12 as part of an entirely “different” study, saying this was not a conflict of interest he needed to tell the Lancet about, despite getting a Β£55k grant for the study from the Legal Aid Board and getting $750k for work for the solicitors representing the plaintiffs. Somehow in Wakefield’s fevered imagination, he saw no conflict in interest in being paid three quarters of a million dollars to prove MMR caused autism, and then publishing a study that suggested MMR caused autism without telling his fellow authors or the publishers he was being paid to prove it. What a whacko!

            Consider yourself better informed, Kiko.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Lol, pretty thin Mikey, stop referencing Deer for your nonsense. You said Wakefield fixed the Lancet study findings as well, that did not hold up to scrutiny either. Like I said, habitual liar, and debunked. Now if you will excuse me I have to get my suit on for the autism summit.

          • Mike Stevens

            In fact I didn’t reference Deer.
            I used a quote Wakefield himself wrote in a “rebuttal” published in an antivaccine magazine.

            Enjoy your autism summit. And keep those suit trousers on – you never know when some kook might try and administer a bleach enema.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Uh oh Mikey, looks like ABC news is swinging on the fence, trigger warning, be gentle on the guy when you see his comments.
            http://wpde.com/news/local/vaccine-discussion-continues

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Hey Mikey,
            If a train was heading towards 500,000 people and would kill them all, but you had your hand on a lever that could divert the train to kill only your wife, or your child, and spare the 500, 000 people, would you pull the lever and murder your family or would you save the 500,000 strangers?
            My guess is you would selfishly save your own, looks like I am not the only psycho huh Mikey?

          • corblimeybot

            Everyone:

            This is your friendly corblimeboy reminder that this person’s level of “discourse” has sunk very deeply into the murky depths of insanity. Further interaction with this person may be entertaining, but this person is both unhinged and hostile, and you might be better off sparing your blood pressure.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Says the person with the private shillfile. Unlock it so we can see what you have been up to.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            This is also a fair question, given that lyin Mikey has a long history of manipulation and blatant telling of lie after lie after lie.

          • Mike Stevens

            It wasn’t to save your family, kiko.
            It was to stop your daughter getting ASD.

            BTW, I am glad you finally appreciate you are a psycho.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            So you refuse to answer the question then?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Duly noted, psycho micho

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Seems like your companion commenters are far worse than I.
            Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko ibid. 2 hours ago
            Detected as spam Thanks, we’ll work on getting this corrected.
            “I hope someday his kid punches him right in the face”
            So you point fingers and low and behold, you are as violent as they come. What kind of animal would encourage an autistic child to strike an adult? Let alone their own parent?
            Why was this flagged Mikey? Are you guys abusing the flagging system?

          • Wren

            Is this meant to be a coherent paragraph? It is not.

          • Mike Stevens

            So, you think someone who “hopes your kid punches you in the face” is as violent as you (who wants to kill half a million people)?
            That’s always been one of the antivaxers problems, kiko…. Perspective.

          • …and maths.

          • Why was this flagged?

            Because nobody wants to hear any more of your spamming crap.

          • Sonja Henie

            Is that from Patch? It happens with them if you post a link. You wouldn’t believe the stuff I’ve had declared “spam”.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Here is a nice summary.
            The MMR causes autism in children.
            The parents want to sue.
            A study is done to open up more research and to be used to provide solid evidence that will hold up in court against the vaccine manufacturer.
            Instead of addressing the actual study or the science in the study, they hire a journalist, make fantastic claims about COI’s, and wage a campaign to protect the pharmaceutical company from litigation.

          • Mike Stevens

            We’ve read enough antivax fairy tales to fill a Russian folk book, Kiko.
            Please… No more.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Hey Mikey, do you know what happened to that re analysis from Dr William Thompson? You guys said he was supposed to do it a long long time ago. Why did he not do it? You guys said he would but he didn’t.

          • Mike Stevens

            That appears to be just more stuff Thompson said he would do but didn’t.
            Seems like its a habit with the guy.
            Like all those promises… He’d testify before Congress, he’d appear as a whistleblower on Wakefraud’s movie, he’d provide proof black kids had more autism from vaccines, and so on.
            When someone dreams up six impossible things before breakfast, I guess the lesson is not to believe anything he says.

          • ~ liz ~

            That was Brian Hooker’s story. Ask him.

            Autism fraudster claims Thompson has been “handled”
            http://www.jeffereyjaxen.com/blog/breaking-cdc-whistle-blower-dr-thompson-has-been-handled-say-dr-hooker-at-manhattan-vaxxed-qa

          • Nick Sanders

            A study is done to open up more research and to be used to provide solid evidence that will hold up in court against the vaccine manufacturer.

            Designing a study to support a predetermined conclusion is absolutely horrible design…

          • Nick Sanders

            I’m curious how you think another measles vaccine wouldn’t compete with the MMR:
            http://briandeer.com/wakefield/wakefield-patents.htm
            And I’m not talking about who funded the study. Study funding is not bribery. Getting personally paid, however, is.
            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/01/01/surprise-surprise-andrew-wakefield-was-p/

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            So you cite the journalist that was hired with the intent to try to discredit the study, and a psychopath science blogger named Dr. Gorski. Ok.
            Transfer factor cannot compete with MMR. Do your own homework or get off my D.

          • Nick Sanders

            Back up your claims. And stop being such a vulgar insulter, it does you no favors.

          • So…in your view….this happened? I’m going to bracket the number of times the UK government pays so we can see a running total.

            The UK goverment hired Wakefield (1) and then hired the journal (2) to cover this up when the results aren’t what they like. They paid 10 of the 13 (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13) co-authors to issue a big WHOOPS statement. Then they pay six editors including the chef to cover this up (14,15,16,17,18,19).

            Then they pay the GMC to find Wakefield guilty (20) and then they pay off three separate libel judges (21,22,23) to continue finding Wakefield guilty.

            Then they pay Gorski (24) and have to pay the bank in the process (25).

            All of this so that they can then pay again (26) because that’s how a public health system works?

            REALLY? Does that REALLY sound likely to you?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Let me deal with Mikeys lies first paid shill. I will stomp on you when I am done with him. Wait your turn.

          • And your evidence I am paid is what?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            See my response to Mikey. I see you are good at fantastic non factual stories as well.

          • It’s not my fault that you don’t understand how other countries work.

            So does it really sound likely to you?

            Yes. It is an incredible story – that’s the point.

          • Let’s try this again…let’s go by this one-by-one and you’ll have to humour me.

            1)Do you agree that America celebrates the 4th of July?

          • Mike Stevens

            People can choose no to believe everyone who says Wakefield is a fraud, but they’d be disbelieving not just the media and investigative journalists, but disbelieving his scientific peers, the medical profession, and the British Medical Journal.
            Instead they can believe the DA of San Antonio?

            And if Wakefield isn’t the fraud that everyone claims, can we see some libel lawsuits being brought by him anytime soon… say maybe this century?

          • Wren

            I distinctly remember Wakefield going on morning television (because that’s where all the best science is announced) making claims far beyond the study’s claims. He definitely linked the MMR to autism. His televised claims, more than the study itself, led to thousands of parents choosing to avoid the MMR.

            This did not lead to any reduction in autism rates for that cohort, but did lead to mumps, measles and rubella outbreaks.

          • Nick Sanders

            You call that “literature”? Good lord, that second page is so full of lies it’s embarrassing.

          • sabelmouse

            you found out to how post pictures!

          • They have sources on them – read them.

          • Nick Sanders

            I can’t wait until you find out how to read!

          • Why do you insist on perpetuating this false narrative? What is your motive? All you people do is cause a political misdirection of funds that could be better spent supporting better research into the genetic and developmental basis of autism, rather than beat that dead, mushy, rotting horse carcass.

          • JoeFarmer

            “Why do you insist on perpetuating this false narrative? What is your motive?”

            Because sabelmouse, ciaparker, Autism Dudd and all the rest are sociopaths, that’s why.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        In the US death from VPD seems very unlikely.

        Because we vaccinate.

        Before the days of vaccination, deaths from VPD were not unlikely at all.

        • sabelmouse

          no, because of nutrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies. obvs you compare mortality to the number of cases.

          • Azuran

            Nutrition, sanitation and the best healthcare available wasn’t able to save that kid in Europe that got Diphteria.

          • sabelmouse

            which kid. i don’t have a database in my head.

          • Mike Stevens

            The Spanish one.

          • Sonja Henie

            The little boy in Spain, whose parents then blamed anti-vaxers.
            http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/spanish-boy-diphtheria-dies/

          • sabelmouse

            since when do parents know owt?

          • Nick Sanders

            Yet, parental judgement is apparently infallible in identifying vaccine injuries. Funny that.

          • kilda

            between 1989 and 1991 there was a measles resurgence. There were 123 deaths.

            couple of points:
            1. I hope you will agree that nutrition, sanitation and emergency health care in 1989 were reasonably comparable to now. 123 people still died.

            2. this was a deathrate of 2.2 per 1000 cases. Doesn’t sound like much, right? Well, the current population of New York City is 8.5 million. If a disease hit New York today with a 2.2 per 1000 death rate, there would be 18,000 people dead. I don’t know about you, but to me, that’s a whole lot of dead people.

            so yeah, I think it’s reasonable to stay that if we stopped vaccinating, the chance of dying from a VPD would be much higher, and there would be a whole lot of dead people.

          • sabelmouse

            how many were adults, and how many were vaxxed? how many died because of underlying conditions, how many died because of bad treatments?

          • Mike Stevens

            “how many were adults, and how many were vaxxed? how many died because of underlying conditions, how many died because of bad treatments?”

            Sabel, are you trying to say measles didn’t kill any of these kids, the doctors did?
            Or that they only died because they were sickly weak mites without immune systems? It certainly looks like it. But then you don’t really care about protecting the weak and vulnerable, do you. Your “selflessness” is legendary.

            Well, only 80% were under the age of 20.
            http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4/F3.expansion.html
            And official vax data has consistently shown that the majority of measles cases are in unvaccinated persons.

          • sabelmouse

            [And official vax data has consistently shown that the majority of measles cases are in unvaccinated persons].
            that is really the bare minimum one should expect from a vaccine.
            as for the rest. not an answer to my question, but i guess you have to work hard for the money.

          • Mike Stevens

            I guess you have to keep lying.
            It must be hard to harden your heart to all those measles deaths, Sabel. How do you manage? Since you commented 2 hours ago, 30 kids have died from it. Hundreds have developed encephalitis and brain damage.
            Does that make you feel warm and cosy inside?

          • JBK alternative

            “measles deaths”
            But what if the MMR vaccine gives autism to more kids than what would have suffered from measles complications (it does)?
            So you are defending a defective vaccine, that not only is defective in more ways than one (mumps), but also is being administered improperly without proper safety testing because of no accountability. If the MMR vaccine gives autism to 1 in 45 children (it does) than your risk benefit ratio is astronomical in favor of recalling this vaccine. This is pretty straight forward Michael.

          • Math still eludes you, doesn’t it kiko?

          • Nick Sanders

            It doesn’t.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Lol, propaganda pics.

          • I don’t think you know what propaganda is.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            “I don’t think you know what propaganda is”
            Sure I do, everyone who responded to my comments.

          • Nick Sanders

            My, what unwarranted self-importance you have.

          • Proving my point….

          • Still, please explain the UK and why they’re going along with this conspiracy.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            I do not take requests, especially from people who are being paid to comment.
            Please explain what this has to do with the CDC fraud and the defective MMR vaccine?

          • Well, obviously, if it’s CDC fraud then the UK should disagree due to its status as a separate country and yet it doesn’t. Plus the UK health system =/= the US system. So since it was your claim, prove that it’s defective.

            I am sure you have evidence I am paid. Provide it. Narrow it down to a specific vaccine manufacturer for a start.

          • Because the CDC fraud would mean that other countries (as in not controlled by the CDC) would have different data and therefore would know that vaccines cause autism – why don’t they?

          • JGC

            “But what if the MMR vaccine gives autism to more kids than what would have suffered from measles complications (it does)?”

            Then we would see evidence that this was the case. We don’t.

            “If the MMR vaccine gives autism to 1 in 45 children (it does) than your risk benefit ratio is astronomical in favor of recalling this vaccine.”

            That is not the case, however: multiple large scale epidemiological studies have found that no causal association between measles vaccination and increased risk of autism, let alone that would result in an incidence of 1 in every 45 children inoculated.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Bought science is not science, I can study 50 million children, what good is the study if I massage data, exclude undesirable participants, and most of all, have a pre determined outcome that protects the profits of the vaccination program over the safety of people. What does any of your comment have to do with the fact that the CDC has been busted for fraud regarding the MMR vaccine causing autism? You want vaccines then have at it, try to force them on others and it is rude awakening time.

          • Nick Sanders

            You keep saying the science is bought, yet giving no evidence. You say the data is massaged, but point to no specific problems in the methodologies. You say the CDC has been busted for fraud, yet give no link to the bust.

            Do you have evidence, or just rhetoric?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Watch the Vaxxed movie.

          • JoeFarmer

            You are a sociopath.

          • Nick Sanders

            Hell no.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Then you will remain ignorant, the evidence is all there.

          • Nick Sanders

            A movie is not evidence. Especially not a movie full of liars.

          • demodocus

            I feel like watching something more realistic, like X-Men

          • So just claims, we thought so.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Lol, more propaganda. Relation to CDC fraud? Stop with the dog and pony show.

          • Again, why do other countries disagree?

          • Again, it is called other countries. I have already explained this to you.

          • JGC

            Your evidence that all the data from all the epidemiologic studies performed by all the researchers associated with every public or private public health agency in all the nations that have attempted to discover any evidence of a causal association between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders has been ‘massaged’ etc., rendering the study conclusions invalid would be what exactly, Jeff?

            Be specific.

            I mean you do actually have some, right?

            Your argument does take some form other than “That evidence doesn’t count because CONSPIRACY THEORY!?”

            I’m unaware the CDC was “busted for fraud” regarding the MMR vaccine causing autism.

            Oh, wait! You be referring to the whole Thompson whistle-blower nonsense, can you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Well Kiko, you are saying MMR is the sole cause of autism.
            At least you are in agreement with everyone that Diphtheria vaccine, Pertussis vaccine, Hepatitis B vaccine, Tetanus vaccine, Pneumococcal vaccine, Varicella vaccine, meningococcal vaccine etc do NOT cause autism.
            Congratulations, you are finally getting rationality.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            So you agree the MMR causes autism, good start Mikey.

          • No. He said that was your claim.

          • suz norkan

            As usual, you lie by misrepresenting what your opponent has actually written, Mikey!

          • Nick Sanders

            It’s called sarcasm.

          • suz norkan

            It’s called bull where I come from, darlin’!

            Have a nice day, yall! πŸ˜‰

          • Nick Sanders

            As a Southerner, your poor attempts at using the lingo grate on my (metaphorical) ears.

          • suz norkan

            You’re barking up the WRONG tree, nickie! Don’t know what ‘south’ you come from, but please feel free to peruse my archives, *darlin’*!

          • Nick Sanders

            Don’t call me “nickie”. My name is “Nick”, and I haven’t called you by any incorrect names, so I expect you to return the courtesy.

          • suz norkan

            I don’t care that you care if I call you ‘nickie’ and *SHIRLEY * I don’t care what you expect! πŸ˜‰

          • MaineJen

            For me, it’s the ‘arbitrary’ use of ‘quotation marks’ , the non-sequitor replies (is he/she a southerner? a star wars fan? a watcher of kung fu movies? a bored 14 year old boy?) and the excessive use of exclamation points.

          • Mike Stevens

            Kiko said, and I quote, “1 in 45 [people have autism] because of the [MMR] vaccine”
            We were discussing measles deaths at the time.

            Since 1 in 45 people have autism, Kiko clearly blames all the autism cases on the MMR vaccine, which means no room for autism due to anything else – not genetics, toxins, other vaccines, nothing. If he didn’t, he would have said something like “1 in 200 people have autism because of the MMR vaccine”, wouldn’t he?
            Or can you tell us what he meant by his claim, since you seem to know what he is talking about?

          • suz norkan

            I know that you wrote a book on ‘everything cia!’

            Are you now writing an article, [perhaps a juicy expose] on kiko!

            Focus, Mikey! Your obsession with kiko makes you look even MORE petty!

          • Mike Stevens

            If you note, it was Kiko who first posted a comment replying to one of mine.
            Perhaps you should ask him/her why he is running round like a dog on heat, humping the legs of anyone who moves.

            PS: What are you focusing on, Suz?
            Your propensity to post comments consisting of exactly zero medical information, and 100% garbage in adulterated English?

          • suz norkan

            Kiko doesn’t give a dissertation about you each time s/he directs a blurb/barb to/at you!

            Right now, suz is focusing on answering all the love letters I found in my mailbox upon my return home.

            And yes! Suz does enjoy a good amount of poetic license within her commentary. That’s NO secret, Mikey! πŸ˜‰

          • suz norkan

            In a nutshell, she states that malnutrition, improper sanitation and poor healthcare may have also contributed to the cod, Mikey!

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, like kids in the USA died because they don’t have toilets.

          • suz norkan

            Aw, Mikey! You left out some of the important meat contained in the nutshell! Typical!

          • Who?

            So if someone is less than perfectly well before they catch a VPD, or are unfortunate enough to meet with bad treatments (hard to imagine, since in anti-vax world these are minor, transient illnesses, treated with nothing at all, or perhaps a few unicorn sprinkles) then bad luck on them for dying.

            Very nice, very kind, very caring, as always.

          • sabelmouse

            nwmt

          • Who?

            Of course not. What’s a few dead people, right? All Your Feelings are at stake.

          • Mike Stevens

            Stop channeling Cia.

          • sabelmouse

            i couldn’t possibly. i haven’t the patience to repeat myself in the face of near constant dissembling, willful ignorance, and/or plain idiocy.

          • JoeFarmer

            You’re a sociopath.

          • sabelmouse

            well, pharmer, that’s funny. i am actually a masochist.

          • Wren

            Are you trying to say you could not be both a masochist and a sociopath?

          • sabelmouse

            it’s not that hard to find psychoanalytical definitions. you don’t even have to read a book, or study the subject. you could google it.

          • Wren

            I didn’t ask you for definitions.

            Are you saying it is impossible to be both?

          • sabelmouse

            as it is a psychoanalytical definition that’s were your answer lies.

          • Mike Stevens

            I have, fortunately.

          • sabelmouse

            you have a mortgage. or debt.

          • Mike Stevens

            Nope, neither.
            Enough £££ to let me go part time for the NHS, and do a lot of other things I lacked the time to do previously.

          • sabelmouse

            yes mikey, we believe that you’re a doctor.

          • suz norkan

            Pffft! You forgot the ‘sarc’ notation, sabel!

            An individual who will NOT supply their real name so that other’s can check their creds, yet conveniently claims the status of doc or scientist on commentaries that rely on such data, simply to advance their pov, is NOT credible.

            Mike Stevens is NOT his real name, and he is a doctor only in his own mind and on internet blogs.

            As the FAKE tv docs say, ‘doctor poses everyone!’ Har d har! πŸ˜‰

          • suz norkan

            Har d har! I get it, sabel! πŸ˜‰

          • Nick Sanders

            Yeah, how dare people step in on your racket.

          • sabelmouse

            this makes less sense than your other comments. i like your pretty profile pick though.

          • Who?

            So good of you to hang around. Selflessly making a goose of yourself.

            Winning over all those fencesitters with your intelligence and compassion.

            Keep at it, do.

          • sabelmouse

            fence sitters don’t need me. the kind of stuff your type posts is enough to convince than that there’s summat rotten if they’ve half a brain.

          • Then why are you here?

          • suz norkan

            Huh? And pfffft! πŸ˜‰

          • Mike Stevens

            Sabel doesn’t care about those who die from infectious diseases.

          • Sonja Henie

            Right! /s
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated polio in the 1950s.
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated measles in the 1960s.
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated mumps and rubella in the 1970s.
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated Hib starting in the mid-80s, and dropped it like a stone in the early 90s with universal infant immunization.
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated chickenpox starting in the mid-90s.
            (N)utrition, and sanitation, and healthcare in case of emergencies eliminated rotavirus starting in 2006.

          • Nick Sanders

            What drastically changed in American nutrition, sanitation, and healthcare between 1964 and 1968? Or between 1955 and 1957?

          • sabelmouse

            not the years that i’m comparing and don’t know why you are.

          • Nick Sanders

            They’re the years measles incidence and polio incidence fell like stones, respectively. Perhaps, if you’re going to make claims, you should know what you are talking about.

          • sabelmouse

            not talking about incidence,me.

          • Nick Sanders

            Of course not, because doing so would completely undermine your ability to bullshit.

          • sabelmouse

            please,pot.

          • Mike Stevens

            Ok. So how does “sanitation” decrease mortality?

          • sabelmouse

            oh mickey! once again you’ve made me laugh.
            but keep on asking, that curiosity might lead you somewhere one day.

          • N

            “Clean water and a healthy diet…” Well how clean can water get? If we continue to make it cleaner and cleaner, we could probably eradicate EVERY illness?

      • Mike Stevens

        “In the US death from VPD seems very unlikely. Whereas Autism in children
        is approaching 2% of the population and childhood asthma and allergies
        are becoming normal”

        Maybe the risk of death from a VPD is “low”, but then the risk of autism or asthma from a vaccine is near as dammit zero.

      • Nick Sanders

        The risk of death is low, because no one is catching the diseases anymore thanks to everyone being vaccinated. You have been told this more than once.

      • shay simmons

        In the US death from VPD seems very unlikely.

        No $hit, Sherlock. Care to guess why?

        • Diet dee

          Because VPD deaths were declining for decades before vaccines and they continue to decline decades after.

          • It’s called ‘better medical care’ so it doesn’t count if you think there’s a conspiracy.

          • shay simmons

            VPD morbidity, however, did not decline until after the introduction of the associated vaccines. If you don’t catch something, you can’t die of it.

          • Diet dee

            And now that there is little disease to catch (less than 1000 cases) why vaccinate so heavily? And I’ll throw another goal post. The killed vaccines may suppress the immune system and one more vulnerable to other infections

          • Nick Sanders

            Cite that shit.

          • Diet dee
          • Nick Sanders

            That does not show vaccines suppress the immune system. It does not even hypothesize such. Words fail me to describe just how badly you misrepresent that study.

          • shay simmons

            “So little disease to catch?” Are you perhaps under the impression that infectious diseases are rationed, one per customer?

            As for your goal post, please post some kind of study that supports your guess that the killed vaccine may suppress the immune system.

      • suz norkan

        Also note her keywords stating ‘worked with’ rather than parented! Odds are that she DOESN’T ‘know what it’s like!’

        • Yes, well, *I* do know what it’s like. And I agree with her.

          • suz norkan

            No! You DON’T know! Don’t forget that I know the background that you’ve publicly shared, padawan!

            You are free to agree with whomever you like! Those opposing mandatory vax only ask for the same courtesy.

            Buh bye, grasshopper!

          • Well, if you know the background I publically shared then you’ll know that I am Autistic.

            I don’t recall stopping you from agreeing with anyone.

          • suz norkan

            I know you’re a neurodiversie that whines about being autistic!

            Yeah! Mandatory vax would ‘stop’ [duh] those who ‘disagree’ with the practice!

          • Well, no. Those that disagree with the practise can homeschool. Or appeal. So as you say, it would ‘stop’ ( i.e. it wouldn’t stop those) who ‘disagree’ with the practise.

            Suz, I don’t whine about it any more than I whine about being a female. It’s just a statement of fact is all.

          • suz norkan

            A cia/grace/anit vax mantra-ism that I certainly ‘AGREE’ with; ‘if there is risk, there must be a choice. ‘

            Nice attempt to cover your faux pas, padawan!

            Oh, and wah! You’re about as ‘autistic’ as I am, grasshopper!

          • Really? Do you have an actual diagnosis?

            And I’ve told you how to handle this before:

            -Either use figures that exclude Asperger’s and thus exclude me – of course, your epidemic will disappear if you do this.

            -Or use the 1 in 68 that includes all the spectrum (including Aspergers and therefore including me) and I will continue to call myself Autistic in covos with you.

            Your choice.

            Read Baxter et al?

            And actions/inactions having consequences don’t prevent you from agreeing/disagreeing which is speech.

            I could agree or disagree about drunk driving all day – the laws against it don’t stop me having an opinion on it.

          • suz norkan

            ‘And I’ve told you’ that you’re a naive child before!

            Go ask mommie what all this means and/or come back when you’re a parent searching for answers on whether to vax your children or not!

            Perhaps suz will be more inclined to listen with you grow up and have gained some experience and insight, sweetie!

            For now, ‘shoot straight, fly right and stay on target,’ padawan!

          • Please explain what having children has to do with the truth or falsity of the claims?

          • suz norkan

            As usual, you’ve severely misunderstood a response made to you!

            So ALSO as usual, padawan, your extraneous and incongruous resply will be relatively ignored by suz!

          • kilda

            right. Cause SHE’s the one whose responses aren’t making any sense.

            suz is annoying! Suz should go away! Suz will now be ignored.

          • suz norkan

            Please feel free to ‘ignore’ suz whenever you wish, and thanks for that, WHOEVER you are! πŸ˜‰

          • Please answer the question.

          • Do you have an actual diagnosis, suz?

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ve never seen her say she is autistic, but she has said she has mental health problems.

          • Yes, well, she said she was as autistic as I am. So….

          • Mike Stevens

            mkay.
            But how autistic is she? As you rightly say, what is her diagnosis?

          • Well, she’s as autistic as me, right? Therefore our diagnoses there should match? So obviously, Asperger’s Syndrome.

          • Michael McCarthy

            Definitely needs more unnecessary and incorrectly used quotation marks exclamation points and commas. Maybe some weird HTML just for emphasis!!

    • sabelmouse

      because we all die from vpd. i certainly died from the chickenpox , and the measles.

      • kilda

        sure, most kids who get those diseases don’t die from them. But the few who do, are DEAD. Not just changed, or injured or what have you. Dead. Which I hope you will agree, is kind of a big deal.

        Even if it only happens to a few kids. Do you want to explain to the parents of those few kids why it’s not a big deal because it hardly ever happens? I’m sure once you explain that to them they’ll feel MUCH better.

        • sabelmouse

          so are the ones who died from vaccines. not to mention the many who are chronically ill/disabled from vaccines. not a lot of fun i can tell you as a chronically ill person with a daughter in the same position.
          what do YOU say to those who had their’s killed/damaged, supoosedly for the greaTER GOOD OF PREVENTING ILLNESSES THAT ARE NOT REMOTELY DANGEROUS TO MOST , AND/OR CAN BE EASILY TREATED?
          sorry. caps.

          • kilda

            well, nothing, because they’re imaginary, and/or delusional.

          • sabelmouse

            thanks for the laugh.

          • Mike Stevens

            You and Cia always seem to be amused by children dying from diseases, Sabel.
            Why is that?

          • sabelmouse

            only in your alternate universe. mikey.

          • Mike Stevens

            Who died from vaccines, Sabel?
            You have any umm, “evidence” for that?
            You know…medical verification, published rates of confirmed deaths from vaccines etc?

          • JBK alternative

            Here is the International Memorial for Vaccine Victims.
            http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Memorial.aspx

          • Wren

            Wow. What’s kind of funny about that is how many of the “injuries” from vaccines are actually far more likely from the diseases themselves. Ear infection, fever, crying.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Vaccines cause autism, as proven by the fraudsters at the CDC, you are feeling very angry right now.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Wren

            Angry? Nope. Just disappointed at the scientific illiteracy and anti-intellectualism expressed far too often lately between the Trump supporters and the anti-vaxers.

          • Explain other countries.

          • Never mind that – what got me is why we’re putting injured on a memorial?

          • Mike Stevens

            You seem to have reading problems.
            I asked for medically confirmed cases, or published data on the rates of death from vaccination.
            Just to add, vaccines can cause serious illness or death, but in a vanishingly small proportion of shots. The rate is less than one in a million.
            There is no plausible scientific or medical evidence to support the antivaccine claims of “millions” or “hundreds of thousands” of vaccine deaths that we frequently see in comments here.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            “The rate is less than one in a million.”

            Says who Mikey?

            “There is no plausible scientific or medical evidence to support the
            antivaccine claims of “millions” or “hundreds of thousands” of vaccine
            deaths that we frequently see in comments here.”

            Show me where I said that Mikey?

          • Mike Stevens

            Ok, how many deaths do you claim vaccines cause, kikokiller?
            And then post proof they happened.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Do not remember pulling your string leg humper.

          • How do public forum works?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            I dunno how do public forum works

          • If you want to speak to a specific person, go pm or exchange emails.

          • Nick Sanders

            Does Disqus even have a pm function?

          • No. That’s the point.

            If they want to only speak to specific people then they’ll need to find a different forum to communicate in.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            whooooosh

          • Still waiting for evidence.

          • MaineJen

            Was that the point going over your head?

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Unlock your private shillfile or fo.

          • MaineJen

            “Name: Addison. Vaccine: multiple vaccines simultaneously. Primary reaction: high-pitched screaming.”

            Not making that up.

          • KeeperOfTheBooks

            My refusal this morning to allow DD to have ice cream for breakfast caused a similar “reaction” this morning. Must be the vaccines! Yeah, that’s it.

          • demodocus

            yours too, huh? lol

          • Nick Sanders

            You monster.

          • N

            High-pitched screaming…. Oh, now I understand! Because he is vaccinated, my 8 years old screams like that, when he has to do his homework for school. Damn… Can I stop all the vaccines for my little one than? Will that save him, and his homework later?

          • Nick Sanders

            The NVIC is a bunch of liars, try again.

          • A memorial is for dead people.

          • Commie Dearest

            My god, your stupidity is breathtaking. Dunning and Kruger need to study you.

          • Sonja Henie

            What a bunch of ghouls those lying liars are! They should be forced to change their name to National Vaccine Mis-information Center. They’re guilty of “false advertising”.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            Are they guilty of MMR vaccine autism study fraud?

          • Sonja Henie

            They’re guilty of lying about that study.

          • John

            I read it,It is an abomination,there was no credible link provided to back up what was printed there and as such, should be totally ignored.

          • Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko

            The CDC is an abomination.

          • John

            “The C.D.C.is an abomination,and where is your proof?

          • Wren

            Well, the CDC does not agree with JBK. That’s proof.

          • MaineJen

            Oh yeah. A tiny baby who catches pertussis from your unvaccinated little germ factories is totally, totally easily treated. No way there will be any lasting ill effects at all for his or her tiny lungs.

            You have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • sabelmouse

            was i talking about pertussis?

          • MaineJen

            Well, you said “vaccines.” People are supposedly dying in droves from receiving “vaccines.” Pertussis is actually one of the earliest vaccines a baby receives, at 2 months. But it’s entirely possible for a less-than-2 month old baby to catch pertussis, and yes, it’s very hard to treat in a young baby. I thought it was a reasonable example, since you seem to think vaccine preventable diseases are no big whoop, are as easily treated and as small an inconvenience as the common cold. Isn’t that your argument? You’re not really specifying much here, so I’m having to guess at your meaning.

            Why don’t you tell us which vaccine preventable diseases you are okay with getting (or your kids getting)? Then we’ll be able to tell you specifically why it’s a bad idea.

          • sabelmouse

            and having those vaccinated against pertussis increases the chances of an infant catching it greatly.
            as for the rest,what i said to mikey.

          • MaineJen

            No…exactly the opposite. Having those around an infant vaccinated greatly *reduces* the chances of an infant catching it. Do you even science bro?

          • Nick Sanders

            Prove it.

          • No, it doesn’t. The acelluar vaccine can not shed.

          • sabelmouse

            didn’t say shed.

          • Oh, you mean asymptomatic carriers per the baboon study?

            Well,

            1)They don’t have the disease, mousey. According to your ilk, this means they can’t give anyone the disease.

            2)The baboons were infected – way to prevent that is to get everyone up to date on boosters.

          • Sonja Henie

            Also, as someone pointed out during a different discussion about this baboon study, baboons act like baboons. When they play, they bite each other and otherwise expose each other to whatever they might have. In humans, pertussis is spread mostly by coughing. If you’re not coughing (that is, asymptomatic), you’re not doing as much spreading. (This is all for the benefit of sabel, not you!)

          • Ummm, ‘no big whoop’ and ‘pertussis’…did you really have to do that? *groans*

          • MaineJen

            *unintentional*

            ………….*but funny*

          • demodocus

            that’s just wrooong

          • Nick Sanders

            Well, it’s dangerous and the coughing can’t be treated once it starts, so, knowing your penchant for directly opposing the truth, I’m gonna go with “probably”.

          • sabelmouse

            nope, this is the least sense making comment.

          • Sonja Henie

            Why yes, you were!
            http://disq.us/p/1cccfns
            Your response:
            http://disq.us/p/1cccm7v

            And BTW, since you’re always giving me crap for changing my name ONE TIME, why don’t you get on Jeff/Bridgit/Kiko’s case for changing his/hers numerous times, including once already today? Because “that’s different”?

          • Nick Sanders

            You only think these diseases are not dangerous because you’ve never fucking seen them.

            Diphtheria used to be so feared that it was known as “the strangling angel of children”, now it’s so rare thanks to vaccines that one person in a whole country dying of it is newsworthy.

            Smallpox was a fucking scourge, and now it’s completely extinct.

            Rubella absolutely mangled anyone if their mother caught it while pregnant, but how many cases of congenital rubella syndrome do you hear about now?

            And when is the last time you saw someone walking around with a deformed leg from polio?

          • sabelmouse

            1. yes.
            2. not so much.
            3. eeh???
            4. haven’t been to india lately.

          • Wren

            “haven’t been to india lately”? Do you think only people in India get polio?

          • sabelmouse

            they get flaccid paralysis from opv. a rose …

          • Wren

            And what about the polio that used to be a problem in the US? It just magically vanished when the vaccine was brought in?

          • sabelmouse

            what about the polio caused by the vaccine?

          • Nick Sanders

            That’s why there’s a two phase eradication plan. OPV, which offers more protection, but has a small chance of causing a weaker form of polio. Then when wild polio is wiped out, IPV, which protects not quite as well as OPV, but well enough to stop OPV derived polio, and has no chance of causing polio itself.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, there were what, an average of 8 cases a year of VAPP from the oral vaccine?
            …Compared to tens of thousands of cases of paralysis from natural polio.

          • Good point!

            Roses don’t actually have thorns, you know. I know what everyone says but they are not thorns botanically.

            I am so glad you brought roses up.

          • Not just everyone — Poison says it, and that’s enough for me.

          • Yes, but you also drink flu shots….every day. By the gallon. πŸ˜‰

          • I’m single-handedly funding the NVICP liability for six states!

          • Nick Sanders

            And in fact, with just a tiny bit of education, and then a small examination, anyone can tell the difference between thorns and a rose’s prickles. Thorns grow from inside the plant and are firmly attached, or even embedded. A rose’s prickles grow from the surface and come off cleanly with a small application of pressure. They are different things that cause similar effects, but one can learn the basic difference fairly easily, making this a wonderful metaphor for polio vs non-polio flaccid paralysis.

          • So basically, if in doubt, tug it?

            If it comes off, it’s a prickle?

            Erm…using gloves of course.

          • Nick Sanders

            I don’t know how easily prickles come off on other species, I just know the ones on roses are rather loosely attached, and pushing on the side can make them pop off.

          • Hmm, interesting.

          • Nick Sanders

            To double check, since it’s been a while since I tried it, I googled “removing prickles from roses: and this was the top hit:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f6icWF9c_k

            Seems you can do it with just some paper towels.

          • Yes. We should all thank sabelmouse for bringing roses up, shouldn’t we?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Sonja Henie

            Cite ONE medically/scientifically verified death from the DTaP vaccine.

        • Sonja Henie

          And it’s mostly infants under 6 months who die from pertussis.

      • Azuran

        A newborn and another baby died of whopping cough close to where I live last year.

        • sabelmouse

          and chances are they got it from a vaccinated person.

          • Mike Stevens

            No…
            Chances are they caught it from an unvaccinated child with pertussis.
            Didn’t you know that vaccinated kids who get pertussis are asymptomatic, so have no significant cough to transmit pertussis?
            Don’t you know the unvaccinated are 23 times more likely to catch pertussis, and so are more likely to be the source of infections?

          • sabelmouse

            but not as likely to hang around newborns.

          • N

            ???
            A lot of people hang around newborns. All kinds of children, vaccinated or not, and all kinds of adults vaccinated or not.
            My sister went to see her husbands sisters newborn baby. She touched it held it and so on. A couple of days later, she was told at her hospital that she should refresh her pertussis vaccine, because they just found out that one of her patients had pertussis (an adult patient!!!). She was enraged. Her vaccine status on pertussis was somehow not up to date, her hospital which should control those things didn’t notice, she looked after that patient for a couple of days, no one knew about pertussis,… She was enraged because A) how could this happen and B) What about that newborn baby she just had contact with?
            Fortunately everything went well, no pertussis for the baby. But it could have happened.

          • Charybdis

            The more people we have that refuse vaccination for completely debunked reasons, the more likely it is that newborns, immunocompromised people, the elderly or those who legitimately cannot receive vaccines are going to be exposed to VPD’s.

          • Sonja Henie

            That makes NO sense, sabel. None whatsoever. Likeliness of “hanging around newborns” has more to do with who has NB siblings than anything else.

          • Haven’t you seen Tavs?

          • sabelmouse

            who/what?

          • Nick Sanders

            Bullshit. And you know damn well it’s bullshit.

      • Amy

        But we ALL get autism from vaccines?!?

      • Yes and suicide attempts always fail. After all, I’ve never heard a first-hand account of a successful suicide attempt, have you?

        • sabelmouse

          even less sense than usual.

          • Answer the questions, sabel.

            Have you ever heard a first-hand-account of a successful suicide attempt? It is a simple yes-no question.

            1. If yes, I’d really like to hear about it and I’m sure it won’t take long for the media storm.
            2. If no, would you like to explain if there might be….umm…. any reasons why that might be the case?

          • kfunk937

            Suvivorship Bias, moussey.

      • Charybdis

        Then crawl back into your coffin or crypt and leave the thinking, reasoning and explaining to those whose brains have not been pickled in embalming fluid.

        • sabelmouse

          embalming fluid? moi? never!

      • Sonja Henie

        Brain dead anyway.

        • sabelmouse

          awe, how sweet! people will now sprint to their doctor’s.

      • corblimeybot

        It’s always nice to see an anti-vaxxer admitting they’re fine with some number of people dying unnecessarily of a vaccine preventable illness. And admitting that human suffering means nothing to them, only literal survival. That eugenicist callousness should always be on full display.

        • sabelmouse

          satire? or really this stupid?

    • Yes. Some idiot tried to tell me once that I didn’t know what it was like to live with autism. Ummm…pretty sure I know what it’s like to live with my own brain, thank you.

  • Daleth

    The thing is, making your decision based on betrayal aversion may make sense when you live in a place where enough people get vaccinated to have herd immunity or something close to it, and where you and those around you have access to good medical care in the event you do get a disease. The risk of complications is infinitesimally small, but to, say, a middle-class family in Orange County, CA, it might seem on par with the risk of dying or suffering permanent damage from a vaccine-preventable disease. (I’m not sure if those risks actually are on par, but I can see how they might seem to be.)

    It arguably makes sense, I mean, but it’s completely unethical, because you’re freeloading off of other people’s willingness to get vaccinated.

    So instead of acknowledging to themselves that they’re freeloading, a lot of antivaxxers prefer to entertain conspiracy theories about “Big Pharma” and the government. That makes them feel like intelligent rebels instead of freeloaders.

  • BeatriceC

    OT: Cookie, my elderly cockatiel, passed away this morning at the age of 25. These last few weeks were happy and pain free, and he was flying around and getting into all kinds of trouble as late as yesterday. I’d had him at the vet a few weeks ago, and he had arthritic feet and legs, and might have been in kidney failure (which he was, we know now). We decided on account of his age that we would give him the pain medication injections, keep him comfortable, and hope for the best. The tests and treatment for kidney failure would have been painful and bought him a few months at most, so we decided against it.

    This morning, he was happy and chirping at me as I fed him and the other birds. I had a doctor’s appointment and when I got back a few hours later we discovered him on the bottom of his cage. We are devastated, even though this is not at all surprising. Cockatiels are only supposed to live about 15-20 years or so, and Cookie was 25.

    • Gatita

      Aw, Cookie. I’m glad his last day was a good one. RIP and condolences on your loss.

    • Platos_Redhaired_Stepchild

      I’m sorry for your loss and happy you had Cookie as long as you did because it sounds as if he was well loved and well cared for.

      • BeatriceC

        He was pretty old. MrC has lived with him longer than he’s lived with any other living being. He got Cookie when the bird was two, in 1993, so that’s 23 years. He lived with his parents/siblings for 18 years, his kids moved out when they were 19, and his late wife passed away a month after their 21st wedding anniversary (they didn’t live with each other prior to the wedding). He’s going to feel weird for a long time without Cookie around. I’ve only lived with him a few years, but I still loved him dearly, even if he was a cranky old man by the time I met him.

    • guest

      Oh, I’m so sorry BeatriceC. I’m sure he had a good life with you.

    • demodocus

      hugs for you and MrC

    • MI Dawn

      Many hugs and much sympathy, BeatriceC!

    • Stephanie Rotherham

      I’m so sorry.

  • Gatita
    • Azuran

      When I did my diagnostic imaging rotation in vet school, we got a call from a human hospital asking if they could send us an obese patient to do an MRI in our special ‘cow MRI’ because he wouldn’t fit in theirs…
      Really, it surprises me that no one yet had the idea of making bigger MRIs and CTs more availlable.

      (FTR, there was no special cow MRI, the school bought the old MRI of the children’s hospital. It had Care Bears and Winnie the Pooh stickers on it.)

    • demodocus

      sigh

  • Clorinda

    This is just like that “warning” given by the American College of Pediatricians about the HPV vaccine. The last sentence of the opening paragraph of their own statement completely contradicts the warning they then proceed to give. The last sentence reads: “Adverse events that occur after vaccines are frequently not caused by the vaccine and there has not been a noticeable rise in POF cases in the last 9 years since HPV4 vaccine has been widely used.”

    But it is the warning that follows of the POSSIBLE failure and the POSSIBLE connections and the POSSIBLE issues, that every anti-vaxxer latches on to. And what the group itself has continued to hang on to. The But-What-If.

    http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/health-issues/new-concerns-about-the-human-papillomavirus-vaccine

    • MI Dawn

      Well, they are quacks in that group, anyway. It’s a religious right group of pediatricians, only about 200 strong. This is not the American Academy of Pedicatrics, which is the REAL pediatric association in the United States.

      Core Values of the College
      The American College of Pediatricians:

      Recognizes that there are absolutes and scientific truths that transcend relative social considerations of the day. (We believe in God)
      Recognizes that good medical science cannot exist in a moral vacuum and pledges to promote such science. (If science disagrees with God, God wins)
      Recognizes the fundamental mother-father family unit, within the context of marriage, to be the optimal setting for the development and nurturing of children and pledges to promote this unit. (No homosexual families need apply)
      Recognizes the unique value of every human life from the time of conception to natural death and pledges to promote research and clinical practice that provides for the healthiest outcome of the child from conception to adulthood. (Abortion is BAD)
      Recognizes the essential role parents play in encouraging and correcting the child and pledges to protect and promote this role.
      Recognizes the physical and emotional benefits of sexual abstinence until marriage and pledges to promote this behavior as the ideal for adolescence. (Sex outside marriage is BAD)
      Recognizes that health professionals caring for children must maintain high ethical and scientific standards and pledges to promote such practice. (Only Good Christian Doctors need apply to join the group)
      Recognizes the vital role the College has in promoting quality education for parents, physicians, and other health professionals.

      • MI Dawn

        I know you know that, but in case anyone wonders about the ACP)

        • Who?

          And this is how otherwise non-susceptible people get sucked in by cranks. If this crowd were called, I don’t know ‘Right wing nutjobs in Paediatrics’ or similar, no one would pay any attention. But they have a serious name, no doubt a respectable looking website, and all of a sudden, unless you’re aware of who is who in that zoo, you’re reading what they have to say like it is serious.

          The Australian Vaccination Network, a sinkhole of woo and anti-vax sentiment if ever there was one, was forced to change their name to the Australian Vaccination skeptics Network, after a concerted campaign here.

          • Sonja Henie

            “The Australian Vaccination Network, a sinkhole of woo and anti-vax
            sentiment if ever there was one, was forced to change their name to the
            Australian Vaccination skeptics Network, after a concerted campaign
            here.”

            I wish the US courts would do that for at least the “National Vaccine Information Center”. People actually think it’s a reputable organization that gives real vaccine information.

      • MaineJen

        Oh…my god

  • guest

    Betrayal aversion is related to guilt, I think, too. If you choose the house with the 2% risk of fire related death, but it *wont* be caused by the smoke detector, if *seems like* you are less culpable if a fire-related death then occurs (because you don’t know/aren’t responsible for whatever starts that fire). If you choose the 1.01% risk house and then the smoke detector causes the fire that causes a death, the death is the result of your choice – you knew that detector came with that risk, and you chose it anyway. You knew about that potential source of fire, whereas in the other house, you didn’t know about the source of the fire, only the risk.

    It’s a twisted logic, but I do hear that from people who are afraid to vaccinate. The idea of *being responsible for* a child’s vaccine-related injury or death by choosing to have them vaccinated is something they can’t deal with, so they prefer to avoid that risk for the more nebulous (to them) risk that their child will both A) come down with a vaccine-preventable illness and B) suffer permanent injury or death from it. It feels like they are less responsible for the latter scenario (at least until it happens – we’ve seen some folks change their mind when they see what it’s actually like).

    • Madtowngirl

      I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, here. I’ve always maintained that I could live with myself if my child had a vaccine-related injury, because science and statistics were on my side – so if an injury happened, it would be a freak thing. On the other hand, I could not look myself in the mirror if my child caught a vaccine-preventable illness.

      This is probably why I want to bang my head on the wall when I see them arguing about vaccine-related injury and death.

      • guest

        From the science point of view we are absolutely more responsible for death and injury if we do not vaccinate. There’s a gamble with either choice, since adverse reactions are real and can be severe, but science is clear on which choice is *less* risky. There’s just something more direct about the guilt if you vaccinate, I guess.

        I have a bit of this about car accidents. When I’m driving, I’m always a little tense and worried about speeding and dangerous driving because I do not want to be responsible for an accident. I’m way more relaxed as a passenger even if the driver is breaking some of the same safety rules I won’t allow myself. Somehow, it’s okay because it won’t be *my fault.* (This only applies when there are no child passengers with us, though.)

        • Who?

          I’m the same re driving. In a state of exhaustion and distraction last year I ran a red light and almost caused a very serious accident. Got two tickets, which were very expensive, but I felt so ashamed of being out driving when I knew I was not really fit to be doing it.

          Thanks goodness luck was on the side of the other car, and me, that day.

        • It’s related to the trolley problem’s variations wrt omission/action bias, I think.

          http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/doing-allowing/