Just when you thought the anti-vax nuts couldn’t sink any lower …

Large dirty black wild pig laying in the mud

I believed that I had plumbed the nadir of reprehensible anti-vax behavior with my recent posts on the lactation consultant who recommends lying to patients about her vaccination status, and who asserted that the recent outbreak of polio in Syrian refugee camps in the result of deliberate infection by UNICEF personnel.

But, alas, I was wrong. Some anti-vax nuts have sunk even lower.

At the cesspit of alt health nonsense known as Mothering.com, Geotrouvetout writes:

I am mostly against vaccination with a few exceptions. I live in MA where it is possible to get an exemption for school admission but I’d think it would be more durable to simply have a fake. I’d love to see examples and get tips.

In my country of origin, I’ve had a doctor signing on for me without actually vaccinating but that will be harder here and I signed another one myself. It was very easy and worked, it’s just a paper booklet. If a stamp is needed, it’s easy to have one made over the internet for cheap…

Is s/he trying to forge vaccination records for school? Actually it’s even worse:

The baby will go to daycare at 3 months and vaccination starts at birth here with Hep B (which we will reject) and 2 months with DTaP, which I may do later if I do it. The issue with the exemption is that it needs to be renewed yearly. Once you have a fake it’s a no worries pass that does not expire. Also should we need to move, some States do not allow exemptions. It would also prevent any fight with the day care and schools that my not be so understanding with having a non vaccinated child in the house.

I guess if you don’t care about increasing your own infant’s risk of death from an easily preventable disease, why would you care about killing other people’s infants?

And who could deny that lying is ever so much easier than taking responsibility and accepting the consequences of telling the truth?

This is right up there with lying about having cancer so you can raise funds from unsuspecting people.

No, I take it back. This is worse. The cancer lie merely deprives the innocent of their money; the vaccination lie can kill their babies.

Fortunately, some members of Mothering.com balk at the idea of lying.

I disagree with what you are doing. What kind of example are you setting for your child to lie and falsify documents? Granted, your child is a baby now, but eventually if you keep needing to turn in vaccination records they’ll figure it out. Are you going to tell your child they are not actually vaccinated when they get older? Or are you going to lie to them as well? What if they tell someone they are not vaccinated? Are you going to teach them to lie and say they have had their vaccinations? Also, it seems like you could have a lawsuit on your hands if it ever comes out that you falsified documents that could potentially put other people’s kids at risk…

Another expressed her reservations more succinctly:

I think faking vaccination records is ill-advised, unethical, and potentially harmful to other people in your community. I think it’s reasonable for people on the “I’m Not Vaccinating” forum to have strong, negative reactions to fraud. It’s “I’m not vaxing”, not “Immoral Weasels – Support Only.”

But then there is this outrage from Taximom5:

The decision to lie to protect one’s child from a high risk of harm is exactly what many Jewish parents in in the 1930′s and 1940′s did; they obtained fraudulent documents identifying their children as Aryan in order to protect them from harm, and sent them to live with Christian families.

Edit: some posters are accusing me of equating vaccinations with genocide. This is not the case. The Jewish parents who sent their children away to live in safety as Christians had no idea that the death camps even existed.

Imagine that. They accused her equating vaccination with genocide when she was merely equating vaccination with wholesale murder. So glad she explained that subtle distinction.

Mothering.com deleted the most strongly worded condemnations because, as Cynthia Mosher explains:

…[T]here have been some responses that were really out of line. I have removed the posting privileges to this thread for a few people because of their posts and will also be issuing them a warning. It is not cool to insult and attack a member, no matter what you think of their opinions or actions.

That’s right. It’s totally cool to lie about your baby’s vaccination status thereby risking the lives of other infants and children, but it is totally uncool to insult a member for doing so.

Who is Geotrouvetout? It is easy to figure out with a minimal amount of sleuthing, given the clues of Massachusetts resident, immigrant, parent of an infant/now toddler and knowing that geotrouvetout is French for geocaching.

I congratulate Geotrouvetout for achieving a lowlife trifecta: stupid, selfish and unethical.

I couldn’t imagine it was possible to think less of the anti-vax brigade, but I was wrong. Thanks, Geotrouvetout for setting me straight!

  • Lad112

    I don’t understand why she would need to do this. If she lives in MA, all she has to do is write a letter and say, “vaccines conflict with our sincere religious beliefs.” If she moves, she should just stay away from Mississippi. Even West Virginia provides home schooling at the expense of the state for those with religious exemptions. “Religion” is such a broad term for the Supreme Court that she could believe the moon is made of green cheese and it would be covered.

    Regardless of my vaccine opinions, this is fraud and I live in MA. I’ll sleuth it out and if I can identify her as easily as you all could I’ll report it tomorrow. Not cool.

  • Jennifer Clark

    The anti-vaxers will hate this thought-if their children decide to go into the military, they don’t have a choice, they will get vaccinated against EVERYTHING under the sun. When they start basic, one of the first things that happens is they get their vaccinations. TDP, MMR, polio, Hep A, Hep B, meningitis, you name it. They even get a flu shot, depending on the time of year. They might also get one against chicken pox (they have blood drawn to see if they have the antibody. If they have it, no shot. If not, they get to have an extra shot).

  • Tim

    This is MONSTROUS and this person should be ashamed of herself. Utterly ashamed. Schools make accommodations to try and keep immune compromised children away from unvaccinated children based on the accuracy of these records. This person is putting those children at massive risk because of her selfishness.

  • Will’s mama

    Note to self, no play dates with Elliot, and be careful who I buy French pottery from.

    • Will’s mama

      Seriously, that shouldn’t have taken me just two clicks.

  • Christopher Hickie

    I’ve caught parents fudging on vaccines. It’s lame and dangerous. I do wish that somehow, ( esp with 2D barcoding on vaccines ) that administration (at the time of administration via EHRs) was clearly recorded in a central (i.e. national) vaccine registry. So many things would be made easier and simpler by this.

    • Trixie

      Omg the conspiracy nuts would FREAK OUT at this prospect. Of course, most of them probably think it already exists.

  • Jocelyn

    OT – do you guys remember this woman from Baby Center (http://www.skepticalob.com/2013/06/mother-eating-her-words-baby-fighting-for-her-life.html) who said that hospitals were unnecessary (for anything), and then had a home birth gone-wrong? Well, I just found her blog today and it turned out that the twin injured during her home birth died a couple days later. :(

    Here’s her blog, with the story of how it all happened: http://dreahlouis.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-midwife-from-hell.html

    • Amy M

      Wow that is heartbreaking. At least she is getting support on her blog and not shunned. Too bad the behaviour of the midwife is all too predictable.

    • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

      omg this part:

      “I gave another push and she came out. She wasn’t crying she was just laying there on the stretcher. At this time it is about 10:45pm and Joann came running through the door. Her first action was to hug Jennifer while my daughter laid on the floor non responsive.”

      WTF SERIOUSLY? she waited hours for this midwife to show up and when the 2nd twin came out unresponsive she friggin hugged the other midwife instead of springing into action???

      • Amy M

        Totally sick. That “midwife” should clearly be in jail, but of course, never will be.

      • anion

        Did you see the comments? Near the bottom she says that other midwives have said she’s (the mother) to blame and “should have known better.”

        I guess they mean she should have known better than to trust one of them?

        Your midwifery client is 40 weeks along with twins and you take a road trip to a city three+ hours away?

        • Becky05

          Of course it is the mother’s fault, it always is! The mother is responsible for researching and making medical decisions, and the midwife is just responsible for helping to give the mother what she wants.

          • Squillo

            Indeed.

            “I’m not responsible for the accident, your honor. I just gave the defendant the bottle of Scotch and handed her the car keys when she asked for them.”

        • Anj Fabian

          And when the client is in labor, said midwife doesn’t tell her to go to the hospital but to wait at home for her there, knowing that she was hours away.

          She didn’t even send the backup ‘midwife’ over until later.

          It was cascade of incompetence and irresponsibility.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Whoa. I just read her blog. She was pregnant with mo-mo twins and this CPM accepted her as a client for a home birth? There is no excuse for that. That was basically guaranteeing a bad outcome.

    • Renee Martin

      This was on here a month or so ago. Poor mom.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD
        • Meerkat

          This is so sad. This mother’s rant about herbs and hospitals sounded really stupid, but I am glad she had the courage to admit she was wrong. My heart breaks for her and her daughter.
          Her decision to have a home birth was stupid and naive. But, despite of that, I really feel that the blame should lay elsewhere. These birth junkie CPMs are deceiving and harming their clients. They are criminals!!! Let’s be realistic—our US government and its agencies are doing a reasonably good job in protecting us from major problems. Our food supply, water, medicines, and cosmetics are regulated and safe. US Agencies are making sure our restaurants don’t poison us and that our buildings are safe. We have laws that protect consumers, employees, and patients. Yes, I know that we have many problems, but we haven’t experienced any real system breakdowns, not yet, and I pray that we never will. I think that this creates a false sense of security. Americans can’t conceive that there are “health care professionals” who are allowed to practice without any education, any standards, any outside monitoring, any insurance, and, finally, any accountability.

          • Dreah Louis

            I think that honestly a lot of women see that Im a black woman and they start bashing at me its natural I understand. Twins rain in my community. I know black women that lost twins in the hospital so lay off the name calling. Black women are not even birthing at home we are all having our babies in the hospital. You white women are birthing at home more than us colored women so lets just stop the name calling. Your calling me naïve and stupid and that is absolutely wrong but your free to say what you want. I received poor treatment because I am black woman. She didn’t take me as serious as her white clients.

          • attitude devant

            I haven’t commented on your story before, but I have followed your blog, and she never should have taken you on as a client at all. Home birth is not for high-risk conditions and twins are high risk. I am sorry your daughter died—your midwife was derelict in her duty every step of the way

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Not sure why you’re bringing race into this. You’re being very combative, honestly. We’re on your side, here.

          • Dreah Louis

            race if very important in my situation but I don’t do name calling at all and one of these women had the nerve to call me stupid and naive

          • Dreah Louis

            I fighting a race issue also you have no idea

          • Trixie

            I completely believe that you are also fighting a race issue. Still, most commenters on this site are not out to get you. They/we want to see this midwife punished and to make sure your situation can’t happen again.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Well, I’ll take your word for it, not having experienced your situation for myself (I’m white).

          • Dreah Louis

            most women who are reading my blog are! No black women at all can you imagine that.

          • AlisonCummins

            I’m white too, but I’ve been on the receiving end of racism when going out with black people. Denied service in restaurants, refused rentals by landlords, followed by clerks and detectives in stores. I’ve seen people who weren’t white or english-speaking treated truly shamefully by retail staff — the same staff who seconds later turn to me with a nice smile and great service. Being white is not a great excuse for ignorance.

            People who experience racism directly every day do talk about what it’s like. They often make great efforts to sensitize white people. The least we can do is listen politely and undefensively.

          • Meerkat

            Your race has nothing to do with me calling your decision (not you) naive and stupid. Yes, I am white, but I am also an immigrant, so trust me—I know what discrimination feels like. I also wanted to make a stupid and naive decision and fight my doctor to avoid all and any interventions to get a natural birth. I am afraid to think of what would happen to my son if I did, because he was in distress and required an emergency C-section. Thankfully I found this blog when I was pregnant, and it helped me avoid disaster.

          • Dreah Louis

            :)

          • Dreah Louis

            I love it when a white person says they know what discrimination feels like NO YOU DON’T. It sounds good but no you don’t. I find it odd that your trying to say what you really meant but your like the rest of the mothers speaking on my blog on the chapter titled “Midwives Should have to carry insurance.

          • attitude devant

            Your analysis of what’s going on with NARM is spot-on. And I have to agree that I have found the assumptions of the homebirth crowd to be shockingly racist: you know, the whole “The way primitive women do it is the right way,” and the underlying assumptions about women’s roles in a family. When you say she didn’t treat you as well as she would’ve treated you a white client, what do you mean? Was is something specific that happened? Was she at another birth the night you went into labor? (Frankly, I think she had no business taking you on as a client at all, but that’s another story.)

          • Anj Fabian

            It’s very easy to find stories of “The midwife didn’t make it in time for the birth.”.

            They are all over the internet. There are stories where the midwife told their client to stay home, sometimes for hours while the midwife reassured the client that she was on the way. At least one woman lost her baby because of that advice.

            The midwife’s responsibility to her client when the client calls and reports that she is in labor is to IMMEDIATELY go to the client and assess the situation. Leaving the client unattended is negligent.

          • Daleth

            I was born at home without a midwife because the midwife “assessed the situation” and concluded that I wouldn’t arrive until the next morning, so she decided to go home, sleep, get her own kids up and fed and then come back. Oops–a couple hours after midnight, there I was. Fortunately everything went well, no problems for me or mom, but it’s still a bit shocking that the midwife did that.

          • AmyP

            There are white people who know what discrimination feels like. If you have a heavy foreign accent (and not one of the good ones), or you weigh 400 pounds, or if you are missing a limb or two, or if you have terrible teeth, or a medical condition that causes unusual body odor, or a speech impediment, or any number of afflictions, life isn’t going to be all sugar and spice. I was reading post from a guy who has to wear an eye patch, and I don’t know what his race is, but you wouldn’t believe how much garbage he puts up with in a job dealing with the public.

            http://captainawkward.com/2013/10/04/514-justifying-your-deviance-from-ordinary-in-a-work-setting/

            When you’re suffering, I know it feels like everybody has it better than you and that nobody cares. I “only” had a late miscarriage at 13 weeks (found out at 14 weeks, had to have a hospital induction at 15), but I know how angry I felt at the people who were supposed to love me but didn’t seem to care, at all. (Or at least that’s how it felt at the time.)

            I don’t know if you’ve been able to find a bereavement group or counseling, but this is not something you should have to face alone.

          • Dreah Louis

            again thanks all for reading my story hope it helps mothers and children.

          • Dreah Louis

            you started this discussion with a nasty comment and you want to tell me that your sorry for my loss your not sorry really you just don’t want to sound like a witch on here.

          • Meerkat

            I am really surprised that my comment offended you more then comments saying that you deserved what you got. I don’t feel that way.
            My condolences to you are sincere. Believe it or not, I am not the enemy.

          • Dreah Louis

            “This is so sad. This mother’s rant about herbs and hospitals sounded really stupid, but I am glad she had the courage to admit she was wrong. My heart breaks for her and her daughter.
            Her decision to have a home birth was stupid and naive.”
            This is what you wrote and you want me to believe that your sorry for my loss.

          • toni

            Thinking a person was unwise and gullible doesn’t mean you don’t care about their suffering. We all do daft things and take risks sometimes but usually we don’t end up suffering the worst pain imaginable because of it. Ignore the callous poster who said you deserved this, you don’t. There was no malice in your decision to homebirth, you were just ignorant of the risks and far too optimistic it would seem.

          • Trixie

            I’m fully willing to believe she treated you poorly because of race. But she also treated you poorly because she was dangerously incompetent. If you were white, with the same pregnancy complications, your homebirth outcome would still have been bad.

          • Dreah Louis

            yes but Its hard to prove incompetence with midwives they stick together like glue

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Dreah, you should go to the Hurt by Homebirth site (linked on the sidebar). Many of the women here have experience what you have, and been ostracized by the midwifery community and the home birth community after their home birth disaster.

          • Dreah Louis

            yes I know about hurt by homebirth but I try to do less debating and talking about the issue because to be honest talking about it over the internet comes with no real power or action towards something better. I find it that a lot of people have opinions and opinions are not changing anything. This is a real war and I take it very serious. I know what the problem is and its NARM and the state regulators. Midwives are working under a non profit organization with no real accountability and somehow the conversations in these different forums gets away from where the real problem lays. The problem is that NARM is playing GOD and they have protected their self and each other very well. Thanks for the referral though

          • anion

            You’re right about what the problem is, and while I understand your feeling I disagree that talking about it on the internet comes with no real power or action. Your story may be saving a baby’s life right now.

          • Trixie

            The mere fact that she took you as a patient is proof of her incompetence.

          • Anj Fabian

            http://www.twinsuk.co.uk/twinstips/4/135/twin-pregnancy-&-multiple-births/monochorionic-monoamniotic-twins—high-risk-pregnancy/

            “Unfortunately. monoamniotic twins face a lot of potential health hazards
            throughout pregnancy. Many of these can be life threatening. so it is
            important to make sure that you receive specialised care if you are
            experiencing this type of twin pregnancy.”

          • Jocelyn

            Yes, they do. It’s absolutely shameful.

          • Meerkat

            Dreah, let me begin by saying that I am very very sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your family.
            I called your decision to have twins at home stupid because it was a very risky move. But I also think that you are brave, and your subsequent admission that you made a mistake was a very courageous thing to do. I applaud your decision to fight for accountability, and I sincerely hope that your midwife ends up in prison.
            The whole point of my comment was that you are a victim in this situation. I am sure you thought you were hiring a professional, someone who would take care of you. You had no reason to doubt her credentials, after all—majority of businesses that have to do with patient safety are very strictly regulated here in US.
            Majority of people on this forum feel a great deal of compassion for women who lost their babies because of home birth, we are not trying to attack you.

          • AmyP

            I am so sorry for your loss.

            All of us are naive and vulnerable when we’re operating outside our area of expertise. If your mechanic says, “We need to do blah-blah-blah and it’s going to cost $1,000″ and you’re not a mechanic, he could easily take advantage of you. Ditto an insurance salesman, a financial adviser or anybody else who has expert knowledge and sells stuff to people who don’t have that knowledge.

            The public is always going to be at the mercy of people who claim expertise–we simply are not in a position to tell if they are telling the truth. The question is, how should we deal with the fact that the public is not in a position to evaluate these experts? That’s one of the issues that gets discussed here. One of the answers is that the CPM credential needs to be abolished, because by allowing the existence of that half-baked credential, states are complicit in deceiving the public. Another answer is that it probably needs to be a criminal offense to do homebirths without malpractice insurance. As it stands, as you well know, there is very little recourse when homebirths go wrong.

            Please don’t take offense at any unfriendly remarks. At least 95% of people here are on your side.

          • Dreah Louis

            agreed

      • HerebeDragons

        Poor BABY. The Mom chose her own path and deserved what she got.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          I disagree. This midwife had no business taking this patient on for a home birth. The patient had mono/mono twins. That is a high risk pregnancy. Most regular OBs wouldn’t take that case! It would get referred to a high-risk MFM specialist. Frankly, it’s a miracle she made it to 40 weeks.

          This is a pregnancy that was GUARANTEED to have a bad outcome in a homebirth situation. The midwife took advantage of this woman’s clear lack of knowledge.

          It should not be the responsibility of the layperson to parse out what is good care vs bad care. She thought she was hiring a professional.

          • HerebeDragons

            If I’m reading this correctly, the mom bragged openly about there being no need for hospitals and said that one of her reasons why was that women would not be able to have a natural, unassisted, unmedicated birth at a hospital. Now that she has a dead child, she’s wailing about how wrong she was, but how many other women did she persuade to try playing with their children’s lives? No, I do not feel sorry for her.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            She also openly admitted that she was completely mistaken.

            Cut the woman some slack. She clearly made a mistake, realizes it, and it suffering beyond belief.

          • Dreah Louis

            I don’t need any one to cut me any slack. Actually didn’t even know that people were talking about my blog on here but let me add people will say what they want and do what they do. A lot of people hide behind computers just typing away bs but reality is my story is one of many

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Well, stay awhile and read the archives of this blog. We’re sadly aware of the reality that your story is one of many. There are many women on this site who have also lost their babies to home birth and negligent midwives.

          • Trixie

            Condolences on the loss of your child and good for you for publicizing what happened. Hopefully it can at least save other lives. Is there anything anyone could have said to you before your delivery that would have convinced you to ditch the midwife and go to the hospital?

          • Dreah Louis

            yes, “These twins may die if you birth at home.”

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            And that’s what you should have been told. Not even that “these twins may die if you birth at home,” but “one of your twins will almost definitely die or be gravely injured if you birth at home.”

            You were lied to and taken advantage of.

          • Karen in SC

            In South Carolina, a woman intending to give birth at a birth center with midwives are required to see an OB twice, at 20 weeks and 35 weeks. If lay midwives are aware of this – I wonder why this isn’t a protocol for them as well, even for homebirth. An OB may have told you that.

            This blog tries to be that source, explaining the dangers of homebirth.

          • Box of Salt

            Dreah Louis – since you are still reading, I would like to offer my condolences to your whole family. I am sorry for your loss.

          • Dreah Louis

            :)

          • Dreah Louis

            that’s great IM glad you don’t. Watch what you say the world has a funny way of teaching you things

          • Meerkat

            Precisely. You said it very well. People should be able to choose their care providers, but they should also be protected from charlatans.

          • Dreah Louis

            clear lack of knowledge?

          • anion

            Dreah Louis, I am so very, very sorry for the loss of your beautiful baby. It should not have happened. You should not have been neglected and misled by your midwife; you should have been warned about the very high risk you were taking, and when your labor began–and when it became clear how precipitous your labor was–the very least that negligent, irresponsible woman should have done was told you to call 911 immediately.

            You are very brave to speak out about what happened to you, and you are truly honoring your daughter’s memory by doing so and informing other women of the risk they’re taking.

            I can’t speak for PrimaryCareDoc, but I’m certain what s/he means by “clear lack of knowledge” is that you weren’t informed of that risk, when it’s something your midwife should have made very clear from the beginning. She never should have agreed to take you as a client. The phrase “clear lack of knowledge” is in no way intended to imply you’re uneducated or ignorant or anything; it’s the knowledge that, being the good mother you obviously are, you wouldn’t have taken that risk if you’d known how dangerous it was. As you say below, if someone had outright said to you “one or both of your babies could die,” you wouldn’t have chosen to have a homebirth. It was your midwife’s duty and responsibility to say that to you, frankly. That she failed to do so means she deliberately kept you uninformed–she withheld knowledge from you that you should have had.

            Can I ask, did you have a history of precipitous labor with your other children? And if so, did you inform the midwife of it? (If you had, and she knew, that further indicates her negligence.)

            Please do discuss the racial implications on your blog. I think quite a few of us would be very interested. (And I wonder if, given your feelings about her racial insensitivity, part of her blase attitude was due to the old racist Dick-Read/”magical native” nonsense that, being a woman of color, your body was automatically stronger/more capable/whatever of giving birth naturally? The old dropping-a-baby-in-the-field-and-going-right-on-working cliche?)

            Don’t stop telling your story and fighting for justice, Dreah. And please believe that we are on your side here, absolutely and completely.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Yes, that was my meaning, exactly. The midwife was not truthful at all with the risks of this situation.

          • anion

            Thanks, PCD. I was sure that was what you meant. Again, I didn’t want to speak for you (and apologize for having done so), but similar comments had been made by myself and others, and I didn’t want Dreah Louis to leave the site thinking we’d all blamed her/called her ignorant, or anything like that.

        • Squillo

          She may bear responsibility for her choices, but no parent deserves to have a child die.

        • Dreah Louis

          really? That’s good to know

    • Trixie

      Did you read the runaround she’s getting from the Missouri midwives and also NARM?http://dreahlouis.blogspot.com/2013_12_01_archive.html

    • Dreah Louis

      she didn’t die a couple days later she died 06/17/2013

      • Jocelyn

        I’m very, very sorry for your loss.

  • Mel

    I’m hung up on Taximom5′s amazingly insulting connection between Jewish parents who lied to authorities to protect their children and US parents faking documents to avoid mild inconvenience.

    First: Jewish parents were trying to save their children from being killed. Anti-vaxxers are willing to let their children suffer or die to score some crunchy points.

    Second: Jewish families lost land, businesses. homes, the ability to freely participate in society and their lives. If you place the “inconvenience” of not being able to put your child in a day-care at 12 weeks in the same category, you are SERIOUSLY F*#$&ED UP.. Get professional help, now.

    Third: Does Taximom5 honestly think that Jewish families missed the acceleration of anti-Semitic policies during the 1930′s and 40′s? Because my husband’s Oma’s family liquidated their farm assets in the late 30′s and used the money to bribe the town record-keeper to change/destroy the records of their Jewish ancestors. Oma was just a child when the Netherlands was invaded, but she learned how to lie in words and actions to protect her siblings in the Resistance, Allied airmen and any refugees who ended up at their house. She also remembers the Jewish neighbors from when she was small who died in the concentration camps.

    Taximom5 and Geotrouvetout, count your damn blessings. Visit the Holocaust Museum, hug your children tight and count your damn blessings.

    • Young CC Prof

      Indeed, I also had ancestors who lied and forged to protect their children’s actual lives. One learned that his youngest son was likely to be drafted into the army of Catherine the Great, at the age of twelve, which was an almost certain death sentence. They had only one way to hide him: They bought forged papers that said he wasn’t a Jew. Still, they couldn’t hide him in a village for long. So, they told him they loved him very much but could never see him again, and sent him out alone. They never did see him again, although years later, they got letters from him confirming that he’d found refuge far away.

      To compare that kind of desperation to defending your “right” to be a selfish asshole unencumbered by extra paperwork…

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        I had an ancestor who fled England when his young son was in danger because he was close in line for the throne. He left his castle and most of his fortune to save his son’s life.

        • jongo gurmola

          My uncle was president of the world, but he stepped down and fled to Mars when the global illuminati needed a blood sacrifice to Moloch.

        • LovleAnjel

          My ancestors left everything behind to flee Poland when the Soviets invaded. If you were upper class, a politician or in the military your entire family disappeared. The people who stayed behind were never heard from again. NOT the same thing at all.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Well, to be fair although they didn’t miss the acceleration of antisemitic policies many of the Jews could not or would not imagine where it was going to lead because they had had a lot of experience with antisemitism in Europe that did not lead to genocide.

    • auntbea

      If you read any vaccine forum on mdc you will quickly realize taximom is mentally ill. What she said is outrageous, but I wouldn’t spend too much energy being outraged at her. Maybe the mods for allowing it.

  • attitude devant

    Heh. This won’t work forever. My fully vaxxed daughter needed her vaccine records to be admitted as a freshman to college. Her pediatrician’s office had recently switched electronic records to comply with ACA so her childhood records were in a storage center and wouldn’t be available for days. Because we were working under an extremely short timeline (that’s another story), I simply filled out the form and on every line wrote “completed” and signed my name (which is different from hers) with my big fat MD right after it at the bottom. I put it in an official envelope from the practice and handed it to her to deliver to the school nurse. This was on the Friday before classes were to start. At 9 a.m. the first day of class the nurse called my office and said, “I let your daughter start classes today because it’s clear to me you are compliant with our policy, but I really do need to see the actual records.” My reply? “Good! I’m glad to hear that!”

    • Trixie

      Because of an error at the office when our doctor switched to electronic records, my son’s printout mistakenly showed that he had not received his MMR. I didn’t notice the error, and took it along to kindergarten registration. The nurse caught it, and (rightfully) looked at me very suspiciously, and asked, “is there a *reason* why he hasn’t had his MMR?” I was horrified that she thought I was One Of Them! I got it fixed the next day, but I was impressed and glad that she caught it and they wouldn’t let me register without proof faxed directly from the doctor’s office.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        When my son was in high school they were going to send him home because the nurse forgot to write down that he had his tetanus shot. He had to sit in the office while I worked it all out.

        I had a friend tell me she thought that was overkill because tetanus is not communicable. I asked her what about playing sports; you cannot play without your physical. I saw the light come on in her eyes and she said, “Oh, they don’t want to be sued.”

    • Captain Obvious

      What happens when her child decides to study abroad? What happens if a doctor screens her antibody titers? Her lies will either get herself into trouble or risk her child.

      • Young CC Prof

        A friend of mine faked her son’s immunization form for school, not because she objected to vaccines, but just because she was disorganized and had no money or health insurance and couldn’t find the records. (She was pretty sure he’d had all of them, though.)

        All was well and good until that son was exposed to mumps at like 25 and had no idea whether he was immune or not. He was pretty stressed, although luckily he didn’t catch it.

      • Box of Salt

        Forget studying abroad or going to college. What happens when the kid gets sick with a vaccine preventable disease? Is she going to claim vaccine failure, or admit she forged the records?

  • Trixie

    About 4-5 years ago, I somehow wound up with a free subscription to Mothering, back when it was a print magazine. I had no real idea what it was or what it stood for when I signed up. Imagine my shock and outrage when the first issue showed up, and it was about a convention of mothers who just knew their autistic children were vaccine injured, despite the evidence, because mothers are always right about what their intuition tells them. I called them up and canceled my subscription right away. The lady on the phone wanted to know why, and I told her that they were going to be responsible for children dying of vaccine preventable illness and I wanted no part of anything to do with their company. She smugly told me, “well, if you believe in vaccines, then we aren’t the magazine for you.”

    • Young CC Prof

      Because vaccines are fairies, and what really matters is whether you believe in them.

      I firmly do believe in a mother’s intuition. A mother can tell when something is wrong, and can distinguish better than anyone whether the child is sick, upset, or just faking to get out of school. However, mothers do not have a magical ability to know what the illness is, what caused it, or what the best cure is.

      • Renee Martin

        I wsh I had mothers intuition. I’m always wrong.

        • KarenJJ

          This. I seem to go into pretty deep denial when my kids are sick. One of mine had fever, headache, started vomiting and then fell asleep/passed out on the lounge room floor (long after she’d dropped sleeping during the day) and I wasn’t able to wake her properly. I rang the nurses “hotline” here and dithered around waiting for my husband to come home. In retrospect with those symptoms I probably should have been calling an ambulance.

          As it was she just had a bad virus and after a night in hospital under observation she picked up a lot and was allowed home. I finally got how serious it was when the nurse at triage sent her straight into the emergency ward. No waiting room. We saw a doctor within 5 minutes of arriving at the hospital and the first thing he did was check her reflexes. I think my mother’s intuition is a bit ‘off’ sometimes.

    • Medwife

      I was raised in the woo, mothering mag was a fixture in my house. I remember my breaking point was their stand on HIV/AIDS. I was a teenager. I think I’d just taken 9th grade bio. Got caught up on all my vaccines that year and never looked back.

  • http://Www.awaitingjuno.blogspot.com/ Mrs. W

    This is in the same category as people who forge academic credentials – really I am surprised it is not in violation of one or more laws and subject to criminal penalties. If you can’t counterfeit money without serious consequence, why on earth should you be allowed to get away with counterfeit far more important documents?

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Just amazing how these are such awful people. This is about the slimiest of the slime.

    You know you are pretty slimey when you get called out on sMDC for being unethical.

  • Lisa from NY

    If this catches on…

    • Renee Martin

      Well, this is nothing new. They are just getting bold enough to talk about it online.

  • Elizabeth A

    Holy zombie thread.

    One of the things that bugged me about it at the time, is how hugely unnecessary forging a record is in the state in question (MA). If you are in MA, and do not want to vax your kids, you can probably explain to the daycare that you don’t vax for whatever reason – medical, religious, philosophical – and convince the daycare that, by accommodating you, they are supporting a diverse community. You can probably totally make the DCP feel good about it.

    But lie about it, and watch how much the DCP suddenly doesn’t like you.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      As far as I am aware, very few of the major religions have any vaccination objections. Consequently, most of the “religious” objections boil down to “personal religious beliefs,” which, effectively, turns into “I don’t wanna”

      • Trixie

        This is true. There are no theologically based objections to vaccination in any of the more populous world religions or major Christian sects, with the possible exception of some Christian Scientists.

        • LynnetteHafkenIBCLC

          Whereas most religions frown on lying…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But since they’ve already established that they don’t care what “most religions” say, that is irrelevant. Once again, the “personal religious belief” is what matters, which boils down to, “Whatever I want it to be”

          • Trixie

            And on putting innocent life at grave risk…

        • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

          Religions that believe in faith healing exclusively have a valid argument, imo. Or maybe ones who have an objection to the use of eggs because of animal cruelty.

          • Trixie

            Even Jains, who are the most careful when it comes to not causing harm to living beings, aren’t anti-vax. And even the Catholic Church endorses the rubella vaccine despite the origin of the cell line.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            Religions that believe in faith healing have plenty more problems.

          • Mishimoo

            Indeed! I made an offhand comment to a nurse in the maternity ward earlier this year, and then ended up talking about my teen experience with faith healing. She blanched at the description and blurted out “You do realise that you could have died because your mother delayed medical care, right?! I’m so glad that you got out!”

            (3 weeks of heavy bleeding with large clots, 1 week off, nearly 3 ‘cycles’ before she decided that my faith was too weak and took me to a doctor)

          • Nashira

            There is no such thing as a “valid argument” when it comes to believing in faith healing. Acting like belief in faith healing is okay, just contributes to people (especially children and vulnerable adults) suffering and dying unnecessarily, in horrifying ways.

        • Antigonos CNM

          Unfortunately, some ultra-Orthodox Jews also place greater reliance on their rabbi, who instructs them not to vaccinate, than on their doctors. There have been several outbreaks of measles in the past couple of years, with several fatalities, as a result.

          It isn’t a universal attitude by any means, but certain haredi groups regard anything said by their rabbi as a commandment.

          • Trixie

            Sure, there are also Taliban leaders banning polio vaccines and evangelical churches in the US discouraging measles vaccines. But they are rejecting them basically out of the same secular conspiracy theories as other vaccine rejectionists, rather than an actual scriptural reason.

          • Young CC Prof

            Polio vaccines are a US conspiracy to sterilize Muslim babies, doncha know?

          • Young CC Prof

            I REALLY don’t see how rabbis can push vaccine refusal honestly. Even if you manage to find some piece of scripture that can be interpreted to forbid it, Jewish law clearly states that, to protect life, any other law can be waived if necessary.

          • Antigonos CNM

            It is a very small group within the ultra-Orthodox community, and I don’t know why their rabbi [rebbe] ruled against it. Just because someone has rabbinical ordination does not necessarily mean they are intelligent, and some groups try very hard not to be “contaminated” by modern life in any way. It may have something to do with the method of manufacture–there was a time when insulin was derived from pigs, for example, which caused certain problems. I just know that there have been at least 3 outbreaks of measles within a particular Hassidic group, in two cases when unvaccinated youngsters from the UK visited relatives in the US, and one in Israel.

            By far the vast majority of both modern Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox have no problems with vaccination.

            Here in Israel, babies are issued with vaccination booklets when born, and need to be presented at various times in their lives, such as at registration for kindergarten and school, and prior to induction in the army. Certain inoculations are given at the free “well baby clinics”, and boosters at school. In the case of rubella, girls get a total of three shots between 1st grade and high school, just to be sure. It isn’t easy to fake the booklets, as the lot number, name of product, dosage, date, plus a doctor’s stamp [with his medical license number] has to be on it. School nurses are tasked with checking the vaccination status of children. I suppose it is possible to claim exemption — and there are fewer checks in the largely unregulated private schools run by some of the more extreme ultra-Orthodox, but in the main, Israelis take the matter of inoculation very seriously. A young person can be refused service in the IDF if he or she really would not accept vaccination in any form, and not doing army service has consequences in later life, such as employment, preference for higher education, etc.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            OK, fine. Your rabbi teaches against vaccines. You get a note from that Rabbi (legitimate note, of course, not forged), and fine, have that religious exemption.

            That’s a real religious exemption. However, most of those claimed are not, and are just used as an excuse for personal refusal.

        • Jennifer Clark

          I myself am Lutheran, and I went to a Lutheran school K-8. There was a member of my old church (that operated the school) that was a nurse who worked for the county. She was able to pull a few strings, and vaccinated some of the older kids against Hep B.

  • Stacy Mintzer Herlihy

    It’s Mothering. It’s a forum for people with no integrity or brains. It’s exactly the sort of thing you’d expect to find there.

  • AlexisRT

    I remember this thread when it was first posted, before Cynthia sanitized it. It was worse, if you can believe that, but what you should know is that Taxi was called on it–the mods deleted it, but left Taxi’s post up (a later one was poofed).

    The thread is 18 months old.

  • Monica

    Her state allows an exemption, but she still says hey I’m going to tell everyone I vaccinate because it’s just easier that way? Not seeing how that’s easier because every year you have to get a doctor to sign off on your lie. Not sure how the exemption works in MA, but here in CT all parents have to do is fill out a form saying they are religiously exempt. There’s no one that has to sign it for approval. I have more difficulty proving to my kids schools that I am in fact up to date on my kids vaccines than someone has of saying that they won’t do it for religious or moral reasons. Maybe I should lie and claim religious exemption the next time the school hounds me and says your child is not up to date on his vaccines when he is in fact and they are just reading the form wrong. Because the multiple times I have had to call our doctor this year because ooops they seem to think there’s yet another vaccine my child did not get at his school have been driving me insane. I believe I sent in the same vaccine record from the doctor 3 times this year finally telling them to please call his doctor if they have anymore problems. All of my children are up to date on their vaccines and my doctor is very careful about making sure of this for school.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      S/he’s planning to forge the document to make it look like the doctor signed it.

      • Monica

        Well still that seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through. You still have to sign it every year. Just sign the stupid exemption paper every year. All by yourself. It’s not that hard. Much easier to sign your own name. Heck, have your signature made into a stamp if you want.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          I’m not sure you can get an exemption for daycare. If a home provider does not want to take children that are unvaccinated, she may have that right. The OP wants to put his/her child in the daycare of choice without meeting the rules for that particular daycare.

          • SK

            This is horrifying as a parent (of a fully vaccinated child). My son was a micro preemie and was very small when he went to day care at 6 months (around 7-8 lbs) and was only partially vaccinated bc he didn’t qualify for all newborn vaccines. I would never ever knowingly put him in an environment at that age where he would be exposed to unvaccinated children. This woman is reckless and hateful beyond words.

          • amazonmom

            I was pleased when my daughter’s day care provider asked me if she should take unvaccinated kids. I told her I would prefer she not do it unless the child had a medical exemption. She now refuses all unvaxers. Nobody with a medical exemption has tried to sign up. This is in a suburb of Seattle.

          • Young CC Prof

            Honestly, true medical exemptions are pretty rare, and a lot of those kids have problems bad enough that their parents probably don’t want them in group daycare anyway. (Though there are generally healthy kids who just happen to have an allergy to one particular ingredient or something.)

          • amazonmom

            I’m just happy she asked, I would probably leave the day care if she started taking in non vaxers. I wouldn’t want her to turn away the rare child with a true medical exemption, I know how hard it is to find day care that isn’t priced at the Microsoft Executive level :p

          • KarenJJ

            Some medications are contra-indicated for live vaccines. Most doctors won’t give the MMR if you are on a biologics medication like my daughter. Ours did, but talking to other parents in the same position we are very much the exception. The other parents would like me to ask her doctors to publish this as a case study so that they can show their doctors and maybe get the MMR for their kid.

            Actually that’s one of the main differences I find, between not vaccinating for medical issues and not vaccinating for ideological reasons. Those of us with medical issues WANT to get the vaccines and are working with doctors to try and get them if we can, including taking the potential increased risk.

          • Jennifer2

            My brother had a medical exemption from one of the combo vaccines (can’t remember if it was MMR or DTP. He has epilepsy and there was concern of one of the vaccines triggering seizures (this was in the early 80s). As far as I know, he still has never had that particular vax. So it’s not just children that are affected. Adults, especially adults with disabilities, are more likely to be unvaccinated in whole or part for medical reasons and probably less likely to be able to protect themselves in other ways.

          • Young CC Prof

            That would have been DTP. That seizure risk is actually why they phased it out in favor of TDaP, by the way. (Although the public panic was big, evidence of risk was small, and with the recent pertussis epidemic, maybe they made the wrong choice.)

            And yes, the people with genuine medical exemptions tend to be far more in need of herd immunity than the ordinary refusers.

          • SkepticalGuest

            This is mostly a good idea, except that I don’t understand why she’d refuse children with a valid medical exemption for skipping certain vaccines. I know it’s rare, but children really do have serious medical issues that prevent some vaccinations, and it would nice if those children could attend a pro-vax, no BS exemptions environment.

          • amazonmom

            Sorry my words were bad. She would take those kids but nobody in that category applied. My postpartum brain fog wins again:p

          • Squillo

            I’d be interested to know what the law says about it. Is it like employment, where they can refuse to hire you for any reason other than those prohibited by law?

          • An Actual Attorney

            Private daycare would be a public accommodation. So, basically like employment. Depends a lot on local laws.

          • Squillo

            Thanks, I figured it might be highly local. I’m interested partly because of a case here where an academically gifted teen was denied admission to a private school after his parents disclosed that he had an ASD diagnosis but needed no special services.

          • An Actual Attorney

            Well, that sounds like an ADA / Section 504 violation. Of course, you get what you pay for with internet pontification.

        • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

          But monica fraud is a long-term solution!

    • Deborah

      I’ve actually done this. My kids are from China and were fully vaccinated there, but we decided to redo them when they got to the US. So it was years catching up. To simplify things, I just signed the exemption form every year until they were all caught up. It was too complicated to give them the forms in Chinese, or to use titers to show them which shots weren’t necessary.

      • Renee Martin

        I can see doing this. Thankfully, they are all electronic here. Not so much of a hassle.

  • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

    reminds me of this lady:

    http://tdn.com/news/local/longview-woman-pleads-guilty-to-forging-records-of-dog-that/article_6b41f56c-1c09-11e3-9e3e-0019bb2963f4.html

    Her dog bit a boy, and instead of admitting that her dog wasn’t vaccinated (putting her on the hook for expensive rabies shots) she forged the records. I wish they could permanently stamp people who tried to get fake vaccination records (OF ANY SORT) to warn the rest of us.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I can’t believe she got off with such a small fine. IMHO, the owner of a dog that isn’t vaccinated and runs loose should be charged with attempted murder. She is a danger to the community and should be put in prison to protect the community.

      • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

        I don’t want to get too off topic, but there is basically no accountability for people with dangerous dogs. You know how you get arrested if you leave the scene of a car accident? There is no penalty for fleeing the scene of a dog mauling, so owners do it constantly. google ‘dine n dash pit bulls’ if you want a ton of examples. Remember this next time theres a dangerous dog law up for a vote in your community.

      • Spamamander

        My community is at least a bit better than some- recently my son was attacked by the neighbor’s dogs, two large pit puppies and a Doberman. Thankfully he was able to break free after being knocked down and escaped with just some minor bite wounds. Since rabies hasn’t been reported in this area in many years they didn’t require my son to have prophylaxis shots but they did immediately confiscate and quarantine the dogs. The owners were given the option to surrender the dogs to be euthanized after the 10 day quarantine, or get them back under major supervision and be charged with a gross misdemeanor for each dog with up to a $5000 fine and a year in jail for each count. They opted to surrender the dogs. The only truly frustrating thing for me and the animal control officer was that he could not confiscate the pit bull bitch who was restrained… she recently had another litter.

        • moto_librarian

          One of our dogs bit our son last spring. I think she was asleep, and when he walked by her, she startled and put him in a dominance hold. We took our son to the ER because he had a fairly deep puncture wound, and even though she was our family dog and up-to-date on vaccines, she still had to go to animal control for a ten-day quarantine. We were fortunate to find her a new home with no children where she is thriving, but if we hadn’t, we would have had to put her down. It broke my heart because she had never been anything but gentle with our children, but we simply couldn’t take the risk.

          • anion

            We had to give up our beloved dog after he snapped at our toddler several times (and I was pregnant with our second). We felt exactly the same way: heartbroken but we just couldn’t have that possibility, and our house and yard were too small to keep them separated all the time even if we didn’t feel it would be cruel to keep him locked up or chained up all day every day.

            So I totally know where you’re coming from.

    • Young CC Prof

      Another article said she did go to jail, at least.

      http://tdn.com/news/local/longview-woman-gets-days-for-actions-following-dog-attack/article_52747f5e-2a33-11e3-acef-001a4bcf887a.html

      And then stayed in jail, for continuing to hide the dog. Sounds like she might still be in jail, actually.

      http://tdn.com/news/local/judge-orders-longview-woman-held-until-her-pit-bull-is/article_2e5a5c06-4c84-11e3-a65d-001a4bcf887a.html

      Yeah, the only good part about this story is that no one seems to have any sympathy for her.