Just when you thought the anti-vax nuts couldn’t sink any lower …

Large dirty black wild pig laying in the mud

I believed that I had plumbed the nadir of reprehensible anti-vax behavior with my recent posts on the lactation consultant who recommends lying to patients about her vaccination status, and who asserted that the recent outbreak of polio in Syrian refugee camps in the result of deliberate infection by UNICEF personnel.

But, alas, I was wrong. Some anti-vax nuts have sunk even lower.

At the cesspit of alt health nonsense known as Mothering.com, Geotrouvetout writes:

I am mostly against vaccination with a few exceptions. I live in MA where it is possible to get an exemption for school admission but I’d think it would be more durable to simply have a fake. I’d love to see examples and get tips.

In my country of origin, I’ve had a doctor signing on for me without actually vaccinating but that will be harder here and I signed another one myself. It was very easy and worked, it’s just a paper booklet. If a stamp is needed, it’s easy to have one made over the internet for cheap…

Is s/he trying to forge vaccination records for school? Actually it’s even worse:

The baby will go to daycare at 3 months and vaccination starts at birth here with Hep B (which we will reject) and 2 months with DTaP, which I may do later if I do it. The issue with the exemption is that it needs to be renewed yearly. Once you have a fake it’s a no worries pass that does not expire. Also should we need to move, some States do not allow exemptions. It would also prevent any fight with the day care and schools that my not be so understanding with having a non vaccinated child in the house.

I guess if you don’t care about increasing your own infant’s risk of death from an easily preventable disease, why would you care about killing other people’s infants?

And who could deny that lying is ever so much easier than taking responsibility and accepting the consequences of telling the truth?

This is right up there with lying about having cancer so you can raise funds from unsuspecting people.

No, I take it back. This is worse. The cancer lie merely deprives the innocent of their money; the vaccination lie can kill their babies.

Fortunately, some members of Mothering.com balk at the idea of lying.

I disagree with what you are doing. What kind of example are you setting for your child to lie and falsify documents? Granted, your child is a baby now, but eventually if you keep needing to turn in vaccination records they’ll figure it out. Are you going to tell your child they are not actually vaccinated when they get older? Or are you going to lie to them as well? What if they tell someone they are not vaccinated? Are you going to teach them to lie and say they have had their vaccinations? Also, it seems like you could have a lawsuit on your hands if it ever comes out that you falsified documents that could potentially put other people’s kids at risk…

Another expressed her reservations more succinctly:

I think faking vaccination records is ill-advised, unethical, and potentially harmful to other people in your community. I think it’s reasonable for people on the “I’m Not Vaccinating” forum to have strong, negative reactions to fraud. It’s “I’m not vaxing”, not “Immoral Weasels – Support Only.”

But then there is this outrage from Taximom5:

The decision to lie to protect one’s child from a high risk of harm is exactly what many Jewish parents in in the 1930’s and 1940’s did; they obtained fraudulent documents identifying their children as Aryan in order to protect them from harm, and sent them to live with Christian families.

Edit: some posters are accusing me of equating vaccinations with genocide. This is not the case. The Jewish parents who sent their children away to live in safety as Christians had no idea that the death camps even existed.

Imagine that. They accused her equating vaccination with genocide when she was merely equating vaccination with wholesale murder. So glad she explained that subtle distinction.

Mothering.com deleted the most strongly worded condemnations because, as Cynthia Mosher explains:

…[T]here have been some responses that were really out of line. I have removed the posting privileges to this thread for a few people because of their posts and will also be issuing them a warning. It is not cool to insult and attack a member, no matter what you think of their opinions or actions.

That’s right. It’s totally cool to lie about your baby’s vaccination status thereby risking the lives of other infants and children, but it is totally uncool to insult a member for doing so.

Who is Geotrouvetout? It is easy to figure out with a minimal amount of sleuthing, given the clues of Massachusetts resident, immigrant, parent of an infant/now toddler and knowing that geotrouvetout is French for geocaching.

I congratulate Geotrouvetout for achieving a lowlife trifecta: stupid, selfish and unethical.

I couldn’t imagine it was possible to think less of the anti-vax brigade, but I was wrong. Thanks, Geotrouvetout for setting me straight!

  • Lisa

    You do what you have to. I’m going to protect my children, no one will force vaccines on my children. If you want to poison your child then go ahead. Just read the mmr insert under adverse reactions and spew your nonsense about how it is safe. The mmr vaccine can cause Diabetes. Ever wonder why there is an increase in Type 1?? And before you say something stupid like “you’re a anti vax nut” read the insert and educate yourself.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Why do you believe the side effects on the package insert but not benefits and the fact that the benefits dramatically outweigh the risks?

  • Erin

    As far as I can tell, the only vaccine I managed to have as a child was the measles vaccine (although I’ve only recently looked into it, I had just assumed I was fully vaccinated as small child/baby). Shortly afterwards I had my first febrile convulsion and my parents decided that they weren’t happy taking any more risks with my health.

    There are various things I have struggled to forgive my parents for and whilst as a parent, I can understand the emotion behind their decision (I did end up on anti-convulsants for 4 years), the one thing I can’t forget and will never forgive them for is this:

    12 years old I suddenly get what everyone thinks are spots. My friends at school are happy because suddenly I have “spots” too. At the same time I don’t feel good, I’m tired, achy, running a bit of a temperature but it’s winter and my Mother thinks that maybe I just have a cold. After all, I’d been doing a lot of sledging and skating after school so no fuss is made. My spots go but my glands are up and after a couple of days, I go to the Doctors. Turns out I had German Measles…no one knows where I got it from, there wasn’t an outbreak at school presumably because everyone else was vaccinated against it.

    I didn’t suffer too badly from it but our just pregnant and very excited neighbour had been giving me language lessons.

    Having to go to her and tell her “oh by the way, you know I haven’t been feeling great the last couple of weeks… well it was Rubella…hope you were vaccinated…oh…hope you had Rubella…oh….” was perhaps the hardest thing I had to do as a child. As it turned out, the baby was fine and we think that perhaps she had Rubella herself as a child and just wasn’t diagnosed but I had nightmares for months about what I might have done to that baby.

    With my history of convulsions, I wasn’t happy about giving my son his MMR but I’d never ever put my child in the same position my parents put me in…having to go and tell someone who had done me nothing but kindness that I might actually have killed or harmed her baby.

  • Amazed

    There are those three things that the Johns of the world cannot understand. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. And mild post-vaccine reactions are normal, not troubling, no matter how unpleasant for everyone involved. They’re a sign that the vaccine has started working!

    My niece was given her 2 month shots today. She isn’t a happy camper. I, on the other hand, am one. And her parents who, of course, don’t like watching her being miserable, are comforted by the fact that the shot is doing its work. They’d hate to have had her prodded and whatnot for nothing. I’d hate it too. If we’re going to turn her into a pincushion, it’d better work!

    The third thing: they so love comparing their freeloading peers to those who do their duty to society. I still haven’t decided if I am leaning on the side of them actually being this stupid and them being deliberately manipulative. Like infant mortality used to measure obstetrical outcomes. Not the right comparison. Not the right comparison. Not the freaking right comparison!

  • John

    Can any of you pro-vaxers tell me why is it that in the 80’s we were giving less than a fourth of all vaccines that we are giving now? Did some massive increase of diseases happen between then and now. Serious question. And, at what number will you begin questioning a little bit the true reason for increasing these numbers? 100, 200? Or will you just keep sticking as many vaccines as you are told in you and your child.

    And another serious question. Does anyone know of a study that proves that an unvaccinated child poses a risk to our society? How did they prove that, other than just “telling us”? It really doesn’t make much sense to me.

    • Mom2Many

      I genuinely love that you are asking questions and are open to hearing a different viewpoint. Although I am definitely not qualified to answer your questions, I trust that there will be those who see that this post has some recent activity and can give you an explanation.

      • John

        Thank you. I really do love us, people, and want the best for us, but sometimes we can be a little gullible and me manipulated in different ways, not only in our best interest. That’s why sometimes, I do follow the money trail. It is unfortunate that our politicians can receive money from interest groups, big Pharma just being one of them. We should not accept it anymore. It’s hard for me to believe that there is no alterior motive for a politician to pass a certain law that benefits the company or industry that helped him or her to get elected, whether Republican or Democrat.

        • Vaccines are the worst money-making scheme ever. They have a really low profit margin, and sick people pay way more money for drugs to make them better than well people do to prevent disease. If Big Pharma wanted to screw us over, they wouldn’t sell vaccines at all. They’d just rake in the dough from all the sick and dying children hospitalized by vaccine-preventable disease.

          • John

            Interesting point, but not sure where you get that info from. If we obligate everyone in America to be vaccinated, without any choice, and I read somewhere average cost of vaccination is around $2500, I would say that’s a lot of cash. Also, it’s the only industry that isn’t liable for damages. We arr. I’d say that sounds like a pretty turnkey business model to me. So you have guaranteed customers, guaranteed pay, whether directly from them, or indirectly through insurance companies or the government AND you are not liable for any damages. Wow, AND if you want more money you add a couple mote boosters or a couple more vaccines. I teally dont think theyre in the business of losing money. But I may be wrong. How do you see it?

          • Who?

            Let’s unpick that.

            First of all, no one is forced to vaccinate. If you choose to not do so, there are some social benefits you can’t take advantage of, for example, state funded education. If someone has a medical reason they can’t be vaccinated, then that’s what happens.

            Vaccines that are faulty and cause injury give rise to a cause of action the same way they ever did, and the same way other faulty products do. People who claim injury as a result of a non-faulty vaccine go through the no fault process, which is cheaper and quicker than civil courts, and therefore more accessible. The damages are capped.

            And what is your problem with companies wanting to turn a profit? Not that vaccines are particularly profitable, but surely in the home of free enterprise a sound business model is a subject for celebration?

          • John

            I really dont have a problem with profit. But not at the expense of our people’s health. The problem is that politicians and doctors get compensated for making laws and prescribing these vaccines. Take lobbying out of politics and rhrow doctors in jail for accepting money and gifts from Pharma and you’ll see how much everything will change.

          • Who?

            Take lobbying out of politics is a wonderful idea, but so long as we have humans in politics that won’t happen.

            Perhaps throw pharma executives in jail for offering money and gifts might be the better plan?

          • John

            Why? This is our country. We should have a say in how our politicians are elected, not the for profit corporations. It really doesn’t make any sense for oil industry, auto industry, film, insurance industries to be able to finance a politician’s election and then few years latter that politician pushes legislation that increases the profit of that industry/corporation. Of course there are more and more people who are losing their trust in the government and what it makes us do. It’s only going to get worse and harder for us to take it back. We, the taxpayers, are the ones that should have control over the government, not the other way around. The vaccine issue, for me, has a LOT to do with this. It just doesn’t make sense and to say it’s not possible sucks. We can’t give it up. There are always solutions, and pretty simple ones too. Just allocate each candidate a certain amount of money from our tax box. All the same amount, and they don’t need tens of millions. Anyway, all the best to you guys. I hope we can all do our best. Peace.

          • Who?

            So why not ban making donations, rather than ban taking them?

            I’d love it if politicians could only spend a specified amount on election campaigning. I’d love it if they had to say who had given them money, and how much.

            Drying it up at the source seems like an easier plan.

          • John

            I totally agree. If we would do that. Let’s do it!

          • I get that from basic math, of course. Vaccines cost money to produce, and they are sold for very little more than that cost of production. The reason vaccine producers are shielded from immunity is because they simply wouldn’t make vaccines if they weren’t; juries in the US are notoriously bad at sifting through complex medical data, and presented with an injured child are likely to assess massive awards even if the vaccine did nothing wrong simply because the child still needs to be cared for. The reason Big Pharma is shielded from liability is that the entire rest of our medical ‘system’ is FUBAR.

            You know what else is guaranteed customers and guaranteed pay? Expensive antivirals and antibiotics for people in the hospital. IV saline to rehydrate people in the hospital. Continuous streams of central IV line medication to help those whose lung function has been forever impaired. Heart medicine for those whose hearts have been permanently damaged. Feeding solutions for children rendered comatose by meningitis. All of those make WAAAAY more money than vaccines, and without vaccines, there would be an endless supply of people who would need them.

            Pharmaceutical companies don’t determine vaccine schedules. They don’t just get to add boosters or vaccines for funsies; they usually don’t like adding boosters, because that’s more lab and production space spent on things that don’t make a lot of money. What happens is that vaccine immunity, just like naturally acquired immunity, can wear off. If that happens at a predictable rate, then in order to keep your immunity you need a booster shot. That gets tested and measured by people who aren’t pharmaceutical company scientists, and then the CDC promulgates a new vaccine schedule based on the new scientific evidence.

            Big Pharma isn’t in the business of losing money, and vaccines don’t cause them to lose money. What vaccines do is cause them to make less money than they would otherwise; they still turn a profit, it’s just a lot less than they would make by only selling medicines to sick people. Remember, they have guaranteed customers no matter what; vaccines or medicines, we’ll still go to them. Your argument makes no sense.

          • John

            Wow, really my argument makes no sense? Ok. You are right.

          • Nick Sanders

            If we obligate everyone in America to be vaccinated, without any choice,

            So far, we are nowhere near that happening.

            I read somewhere average cost of vaccination is around $2500, I would say that’s a lot of cash.

            Have you read about the cost of a single case of measles?

            Also, it’s the only industry that isn’t liable for damages.

            It’s just as liable as any other industry.

            AND if you want more money you add a couple mote boosters or a couple more vaccines.

            You can’t just casually put out a new vaccine for sale. It’s not a new hamburger with a slightly different combination of sauce and cheese. Each vaccine that gets approved has first spent several years in development and testing, costing billions of dollars in R&D. And for every one that makes it to the final step of being submitted for FDA approval, there are dozens that never see the light of day because they dead ended in one of the earlier stages of testing. And after all that, most of them only get sold a single digit number of times to each customer, at a pittance.

    • We hadn’t developed some of the vaccines we have now. The vaccines in the 1980s were DTP, polio, and MMR over nice (9) shots. We now do the following vaccines: DTaP, polio, MMR, hepatitis B, hepatitis A, influenza, rotavirus, Hib, pneumococcal, and varicella (chicken pox) over 25 shots.

      Why did that go up? Because we developed vaccines to save babies from diseases that were killing them before we had those vaccines. It wasn’t that a massive increase in disease happened between the 1980s and now, it’s that we figured out how to prevent the diseases that were already occurring. Remember, your baby is exposed to thousands of new pathogens every day; adding a fraction of that exposure through a vaccine isn’t going to do any harm, and will do great good so the baby doesn’t catch and perhaps die from one of those diseases.

      The proof of the risk that unvaccinated children pose to the rest of us is, as they say, in the pudding. Unvaccinated children have been the source points of multiple measles and whooping cough outbreaks in the US, some of which have killed people. Basic epidemiology is the kind of study you want, and it’s been done over and over and over again. Remember, vaccines aren’t 100% effective. They just help. When you have unvaccinated people as disease vectors, even people who have been vaccinated can get sick, and the more unvaccinated people around the higher the odds of everyone around them becoming ill.

      For example, one woman I know is watching her daughter die of influenza-caused lung deterioration. The daughter wasn’t able to be vaccinated- they tried, but the girl had serious allergic reactions, so she had a medical contraindication for vaccination. She was exposed to an unvaccinated person who had the flu and caught it. She was hospitalized, and while she did eventually go home, the lung damage was so extensive that she has been slowly deteriorating ever since. Do you understand why this woman is so very angry at anti-vaxxers? They killed her daughter.

      • John

        But where will we stop? If, as you said, there are this and of new pathogens every year, is that our goal? Aren’t there numerous studies that show that the more we vaccinate with the flu vaccine , the more likely the person is to catch the flu next year.

        I know that there are instances of healthy children becoming brain dead after taking the Avion flu in England. I think around 800 kids or so few years ago. That was one of the new vaccines you are talking about. I am terified.

        And I still don’t get how the proof is in the pudding that an unvaccinated child is a danger to society. Science sometimes is pro end wrong in some cases. We should be a little careful. We ALL want the best for our kids and our world. We have more diseases now that our scientists have, supposedly, no clue how they are caused. I can’t help but wonder if all of these increased chemicals that we introduce in our developing babies bodies have anything to do with autoimmune diseases, cancer cells development and so on. Let’s keep the eyes and ears and hearts open, and not just follow one way or the other like sheep.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Aren’t there numerous studies that show that the more we vaccinate with the flu vaccine , the more likely the person is to catch the flu next year.

          Not that I know of. Citations, please.

          • John

            http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2016/04/study-prior-year-vaccination-cut-flu-vaccine-effects-2014-15

            Kinda crazy, but makes sense to me. Kind of like antibiotics. We have to be careful!

          • Do you understand why antibiotic resistance happens?

          • John

            Did you bother to read the scientific study that shows that the more someone gets the flu vaccine, the more likely they are to get the flu? What is your opinion of that. Sorry, the antibiotic comment is irrelevant, you are right!

          • I didn’t read the study, as I couldn’t get access to the paper, but I did read the article discussing it. It was interesting. Sometimes prior years’ vaccines make this year’s vaccine more effective, sometimes it has no effect, sometimes it lessens the effect. That’s a really fascinating finding!

            However, your assertion that if you get the flu vaccine more often you’re more likely to get the flu simply isn’t backed up by the analysis in the article.

          • John

            I guess I oversimplified it. I don’t take the flu shot even though I’m constantly bombarded to take it, drug store, doctor’s offices. Do you? I read what’s in it and I prefer not to put it in my blood. I am a criminal…lol…throw me out of your free country.

          • Charybdis

            You are aware that vaccinations aren’t injected into the bloodstream? And it is your choice to not to receive the flu shot or flu mist, no matter how much you are bombarded with advertising to do so.

          • Of course I get it every year. I have friends with newborns/young children, and I’d rather not be culpable for sending their kid(s) to the hospital. Not to mention, people with suppressed or compromised immune systems exist around me; they can’t get the vaccine, so it’s my civic and ethical duty to protect them as best I can. That means getting the shot.

            You’re also being incredibly hyperbolic. No one is suggesting anyone go to jail for not getting vaccines. I think you’re doing a bad thing by not getting vaccinated, but lots of people do lots of bad things all the time. You’re getting more and more off the deep end as your arguments are taken down.

          • John

            My arguments aren’t taken down. I am talking to people who do not have the strength to admit that maybe they are wrong. No argument I would make would change your mind. I don’t get the flu vaccine and I don’t get the flu. If I would ever do, I will not go around people.

          • Nick Sanders

            I am talking to people who do not have the strength to admit that maybe they are wrong.

            Should we also admit that maybe we are wrong about airplanes flying? What about the brain being the seat of intelligence? Or perhaps the law of supply and demand?

            The fact is, there are literally tens of thousands of studies on vaccines, and our stance is backed by global medical consensus. Either every major medical organization on the planet have all somehow made the same incredible oversight, there’s been a statistical fluke of inconceivable proportions, there is a conspiracy so vast it makes no sense that it has held together, or none of the above and we are right.

          • John

            We give 4 times the amount of vaccines than most developed countries. So, no, most medical organizations are not unified in consensus. Out of the tens of thousand of studies, has any one been done by an independent party to simply compare long term differences in overall health between the fully vaccinated children and the completely non vaccinated children. It would be so easy to do such a study by our government entities like NIH. If you point me to that and show me that vaccinated individual are healthier, LONG TERM, than unvaccinated individuals, I promise I will fully vaccinate. By the way, such studies have been done in Europe and it clearly showed the opposite.

          • Azuran

            Link to your studies that clearly showed that vaccinated people are less healthy.

            And comparing the health of vaccinated and unvaxxinated is actually super biased and not a good measure. Unvaxxed people are protected by herd immunity, so are unlikely to get the disease they are not vaccinated against.
            Long term studies are also very difficult to get, the vaccine my grandmother, my mother and me got were all different ones. vaccines changed a lot since them. So let’s say you find there is a rise in X disease in people over 60 who received some kind of vaccine. We are not even using that vaccine anymore, so the conclusions are useless. And those who died of vaccine preventable disease 60 years ago are not going to be counted into your health analysis. As for long term effect of current vaccination? we will know in 50 years and by then we’ll probably have an even safer vaccine.
            But still, you still have to ask yourself. Let’s say vaccination raises your risk of some kind of cancer in your 70s, are we going to stop vaccination and let thousands of children and babies die of vaccine preventable disease each years to reduce an increased risk of illness 70 years down the road?

          • John

            Honestly, I’m realizing no matter what I say you have an argument for and whatever point you have, I have an argument for. If 95 percent of people believe your point and that’s the heard that you need for your protection from all these diseases, why don’t you guys just let us 5% of nuts to take our chances and live vaccine free?

            I have heard of many kids injured by vaccines and none that died from flu or any preventable diseases.

            Why do we give 3 to 4 times the vaccines other developed countries do? Should be an easy answer.

          • Daleth

            I have heard of many kids injured by vaccines and none that died from flu or any preventable diseases.

            You haven’t been paying attention, then.

            Here are just a few of the kids who died of the flu in the US in 2015-16 alone:
            – Lelaina Wilson of Highlands Ranch, CO:
            http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/04/06/highlands-ranch-child-1st-flu-death-of-season/

            – Ayzlee McCarthy, age 3, in Iowa:
            http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/health/2015/01/02/flu-deaths-iowa-young-girl-dies/21214315/

            – A 12-year-old girl in Kitsap County, WA:
            http://q13fox.com/2016/01/20/child-dies-from-flu-in-kitsap-county-health-officials-say/

            – An elementary schoolgirl in Maricopa County, AZ:
            http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/02/04/arizona-phoenix-child-flu-death-abrk/22871997/

            – A child in Milwaukee, WI (and almost 2500 Wisconsinites were hospitalized with flu as of that date, January 2015, barely halfway through the flu season):
            http://www.wisn.com/news/state-reports-pediatric-flu-death-in-milwaukee-county/30561970

            – A child in Travis County, TX:
            http://legacy.kvue.com/story/news/2015/01/15/child-dies-from-flu-in-travis-county/21809691/

            – 26 children across the nation between September 2014 and January 2015 alone:
            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/09/flu-deaths-increase/21498903/

          • Bombshellrisa

            There are kids who have died from the flu. It’s made the news quite a few times this past winter.
            You shouldn’t see death as the only complication of a vaccine preventable disease. Post polio syndrome is very real. There are people who are blind or deaf because their mothers were exposed to rubella while pregnant. Shingles is a very real and painful possibility for those of us who were not able to get the chickpox vaccine.

          • Charybdis

            Notice how he posts a Facebook “source” for his claims and Daleth and others have been posting news sources, healthcare sources and those ebil guvment sources.

            When did Facebook become a valid citation?

          • Daleth

            I have heard of many kids injured by vaccines and none that died from flu or any preventable diseases.

            And PS, here are some kids who died of chicken pox:

            – Abby Peterson, age 6, of Minnesota, who was not vaccinated:
            http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mom-child-died-chicken-pox-advocates-vaccines/story?id=23323301

            – A 15-year-old Ohio girl who was not vaccinated:
            http://www.dailyrxnews.com/chickenpox-killed-unvaccinated-15-year-old-girl-after-she-developed-complications

            And a few more in the UK, where they still don’t offer the chicken pox vaccine:
            – Elana Bunce-Mason, age 3: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/chickenpox-killed-my-daughter-405339

            – Fabio Alves-Nunes, age 6: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1210300/Chickenpox-killed-son-How-little-boy-died-just-weeks-spots-appeared.html

            – Nicole Murphy, age 7: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2586103/We-no-idea-chickenpox-deadly-Parents-heartbreak-healthy-girl-7-dies-suddenly-condition.html

          • John

            Here are a lot more instances of vaccine injuries

            https://m.facebook.com/pages/My-childs-vaccine-reaction/372638272814622

            If there are major risks with each choice, isn’t reasonable not to force people to take the risks?

          • Nick Sanders
          • Daleth

            You’re sending me to a Facebook page? Really? You do realize that anyone can post anything they want on Facebook, right? There are no fact-checkers there.

            Look up the term “reputable source” and then maybe we can talk.

          • Amazed

            John said, “I have heard of many kids injured by vaccines and none that died from flu or any preventable diseases.”

            Now you have. Your first argument doesn’t hold water. But then, none of your other arguments does.

          • Nick Sanders
          • Nick Sanders

            I’m realizing no matter what I say you have an argument for and whatever point you have, I have an argument for.

            Why do you people so often think that your list of bog standard anti-vax talking points are some novel new arguments we’ve never heard before? We have been down these roads many times; just because you personally weren’t here for any of them doesn’t mean we are going to treat them as anything but old news. Hell, a lot of it is older than anyone on this forum, and just as wrong now as it was then:
            http://www.vox.com/2015/1/28/7923427/anti-vaccine-history-arguments

          • Amazed

            Because there are people among those 95 % that are vulnerable and have to rely on herd immunity even if I take your attempt to play Ivan the Terrible aka “I created you so I’ll kill you” with your own kids’ lives as your indusputable right, the way the Tsar clearly took it.

            And because I don’t like freeloading, pure and simple. We’ve had the likes of you in power for many years in my country and it hasn’t been pretty, so my tolerance for those who reap the benefits but refuse to do their own part is vanishingly small.

            Stop mooching off my herd, you leech. And since I know you won’t, let me give you one of the reasons I so detest you, the likes of you and the shared lie that you spread – that the only people affected by your selfish egoism and lack of any genuine knowledge are your privileged selves.

            Read and cry for those poor persecuted parents who only wanted to live vaccine free and are now so unfairly persecuted.Just because they happened to murder two other families’ children! So unfair!

            http://www.thelocal.de/20130614/50305

            You think you’re so smart saying sarcastically that your ilk consists of nuts. But you’re right. Now, would you also admit, however loftily, that you’re leeches as well?

          • John

            Wow, yes you are right. I finally get it. I am a leech and you are my saviour. Thank you. I am so sorry we murder your children by choosing not to vaccinate ourselves. Obviously you are going off the DEEP end with your thoughts and arguments. No proof whatsoever. Only prppagands and attacking, disrespectful words. Thank you for showing I should not waste my time trying to have an adult debate with you.

          • Nick Sanders

            Regardless of what you think of Amazed specific word choices, they are right. You, and every other vaccine refuser, are classic free riders.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

          • Amazed

            They’ll never admit it, though. Because – soooo few unvaxxed people ever get sick with those overstated diseases.

          • John

            Nick, the real issue here is the perception that an unvaccinated child puts vaccinated children at risk or immunocompromised people who cannot have vaccines at risk. Firstly, you would think that if vaccines really work in the vast majority of cases, the fully vaccinated really Shouldn’t worry. The immunocompromised are very very small numbers and most of them are in controlled environments, not in public. Secondly, and most important for me would be to see a specific study that proves that point, that unvaccinated put vaccinated at risk. Not a theory, but a specific study that shows that correlation.

            The type of people like Amazed is that shows how easily the masses can be manipulated to the point to where they attack without any respect. It is very scarry. Reminds me of A LOT of different examples in our world history when a minority has been attacked in a very offensive and ultimately criminal manner. Anyway, I hope it will all be ok for ALL of us. I really mean that.

          • Amazed

            Wow! Such trust in vaccines! You’re, in fact, a greater believer in them than any of us pro-vaxxers. But I guess it goes with the territory. You won’t be this comfortable mooching off the herd if the herd needs to be almost fully vaccinated for your precious selves to be protected, right?

            Stop moving the goalposts. This far, you haven’t pointed out ANY respectable study showing any veritable link between vaccines and mortality/morbidity, let alone in numbers big enough to influence any responsible person’s decision-making. You claim that you’ve “heard” of children killed or maimed by vaccines but you haven’t heard of children killed by the lack of vaccines. We give them to you and now you’re pretending not to see, Just your typical freeloading moocher.

            As to yout last point: Yeah, that’s just what our Communists here claimed about themselves. They were this poor persecuted group who was attacked in a very offensive and ultimately criminal manner. There’s this just one small detail, the vast majority of them were freaking terrorists responsible for an attack resulting in a number of victims that makes those in Brussels – ninety years later – pale in comparison. Very fitting. You keep fulfilling my plea to keep revealing yourself and fellow freeloaders.

            Keep whining, John. Keep whining. Keep feeling like a victim. Your fee-fees are the last thing I’m concerned about.

            Ever getting to comment on the links Nick and yours truly provided you with? No? Why, Johny Leech?

          • Nick Sanders

            Firstly, you would think that if vaccines really work in the vast majority of cases, the fully vaccinated really Shouldn’t worry.

            Except not all children are old enough to have yet received all vaccines. The immune system, like almost every other bodily system, is only partially functioning at birth. It takes a few years to get completely up and running, so certain vaccines don’t do much, if anything, if given before certain ages. Beyond that, some require more than one dose to produce immunity in a sizable minority of people, something like 5 to 20%, IIRC, depending on which vaccine. During this time, they are still vulnerable to disease, and for many such diseases also at the age most likely to die if they do catch it. Therefore, to protect them as best as possible, other people need to be vaccinated as well so that they don’t have the disease, and thus can’t spread it to them.

            On the other end of the age spectrum, the immune systems of the elderly are waning, making them once again vulnerable to many diseases they were previously immune to, whether that immunity came from a vaccine or was “natural” immunity. And because their immune systems are weaker, they do not fight off diseases they catch as easily as younger, fitter people, nor do they have the internal reserves to carry them through prolonged or severe illnesses. Again, the best protection for them is that no one around them be hosting any contagious diseases.

            The immunocompromised are very very small numbers and most of them are in controlled environments, not in public.

            The most extremely immunocompromised, the ones with no immune system at all, yes. But that’s only a fraction of the immunocompromised. Not all immune deficiencies are total, many are partial. They get sick more easily and more severely than people with a complete immune system, but with precautions, both on their part and on the part of others, they can live mostly normal lives.

            Secondly, and most important for me would be to see a specific study that proves that point, that unvaccinated put vaccinated at risk. Not a theory, but a specific study that shows that correlation.

            Sure can:
            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2503179
            http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2203906#
            And this isn’t quite a study, but it is a data review by the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/children-flu-deaths.htm

            The type of people like Amazed is that shows how easily the masses can be manipulated to the point to where they attack without any respect.

            Antivaxxers kill kids. Why on earth should we respect that?

          • Charybdis

            Do you think you can look up from your myopic navel gazing and look around at life? The immunocompromised do not only exist in isolation wards, clean rooms and other controlled environments. Severely immunocompromised people, like bone marrow transplant recipients, AIDS patients, cancer patients undergoing very aggressive chemo are likely in controlled environments. But people with less severe conditions like autoimmune diseases (lupus, crohn’s disease, rheumatoid arthritis, etc) often have to take medications that suppress the immune system. This makes them more susceptible to illness, ,but they do live normal lives. Go out and about in public, eat out, go to their kid’s ball games and dance recitals, PTA meetings, attend weddings and funerals, go swimming, you know, everyday things. They are careful to guard their health, but since a number of illnesses are airborne, they get exposed because people cough, hack, sneeze, spit etc.

            You appear to talk a good game, being SOOO concerned about everyone, but you are selfish as hell. You don’t care about the bigger picture at all. It’s all “I, I, I, me, me, me” and the rest of society can go take a flying leap, especially the immunocompromised, elderly, those with a legitimate medical reason (allergy, severe adverse reaction, etc) to not vaccinate and the very young, who are not vaccinated yet. You cannot comprehend that your made-up “concerns” are just smoke and mirrors because you fancy yourself an *educated rebel*, *original thinker* or are just jumping on the *hip, cool, “in”* cause train because you think it will raise your crunchy credit or make it seem that you are hipper than you are.

            You are free to not vaccinate. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences of not doing so. You do not have to wear a scarlet A, a yellow star or any other identifying mark. But you should expect to get pushback and field flak from those you endanger. I would not want an unvaccinated person coming to visit me and a new baby or coming within spitting distance of my elderly mother who is currently battling pneumonia. And to possibly be shunned by those who have a sense of community and are willing to do their part to make life better and safer for all, not just a myopic, scared, misguided minority who disguise their fear and selfishness as *concern*.

          • Who?

            My daughter’s housemate had a liver transplant. He finished two university degrees, goes out to work, goes on holiday and has a nice life, and is immuno-compromised. He got sick in his early teens, so will have had most of the jabs before then, but now more than 10 years on, 3.5 years after the transplant, immunity is likely starting to wane.

            Imagine going through all that then being carried off by chicken pox or the flu because someone was too scared to get their kid vaccinated. Imagine being his parents, with all they’ve been through, wondering what will befall him next.

            The Johns of the world don’t know what illness is, they don’t know fear for their children is.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I don’t think you understand how scientific studies work. How would someone set up a study to “prove” that unvaccinated put the vaccinated at risk? What would be the methodology be behind it? What would this study look like?

          • Amazed

            Yeah, poor John feels disrespected, what a tragedy! We should just keep our dignified silence when he and fellow leeches are murdering other people’s children. Because John and fellow leeches’ fee-fees rank WAY higher than other people’s lives. I guess that’s because your bodies are free of toxins so your wonderful fee-fees count more than those pecky details of other people’s lives?

            No one is trying to force you to vaccinate. But there are some rules of society. If you don’t want to vax yourselves/your kids, no one will drag you to those evil white doctor’s offices. But you automatically lose the right you so cherish – when you feel seriously ill, to rush yourselves/your kids and all your possible preventable diseases to the waiting room, exposing other people to danger. You wait until the doctor can see you at home. That’s the price of freedom, leech. Everything comes with a price.

            By the way, your hypocrisy is stunning. You don’t trust Big Pharma to prevent life-threatening diseases but you suddenly are all trust when an actual problem is there? And then you speed to the good Big Pharma shill to solve it, not caring about anyone else who you and your intentionally left to develop germs might harm/kill? Touching.

            Are you going to comment on the result of your fellow thinkers’ action, or are you going to keep hiding behind your offence? What? Let me guess: wahat killed those kids wasn’t a preventable disease (once the preventable measles made its way into them), so technically,they don’t count. You’ll keep bombarding us with facebook posts.

          • shay simmons

            An unvaccinated leech gave the measles to a young woman in WA last spring and killed her, John.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Thank you for mentioning this, it has been forgotten by so many people but there was a young woman who died from the measles recently.

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child

            “A neglected child gave the measles to a young woman in WA last spring and killed her, John.”

            There, fixed that for you – let’s not blame the unvaxxed kids – it’s not their fault their parents are imbeciles.

          • shay simmons

            It was initially reported that the source was an unvaccinated adult…but I’ll go back and check!

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child

            So?

            Still a neglected child at some point.

          • pg

            Wasn’t that woman vaccinated against measles? Oh, and wasn’t she on immune suppressing drugs? But as a paid shill, I suppose those details don’t suit your agenda.

          • Ad hominem: Foolish Child

            Your claim – pg, your burden of proof.

            But 1)yes – so what? We all know that vaccines aren’t 100% like anything else in life and 2)I do not know – I do know she was immunocomprised /

          • pg

            funny how you left that detail out

          • Azuran

            Because it’s not going to stop at 5%, eventually it will be 6, then 7, then 10 and so on until the heard immunity fails and then we have epidemics like the one that happened in Disneyland and innocent children will die.
            Nobody actually cares that much if you, as one single individual is vaccinated or not. 1 more or one less is nothing. But you are not alone. There are more and more people who make the same decision you did to not to get vaccinated because they think that, since everyone else is vaccinated, their risk of actually getting a vaccine preventable disease are close to none.
            But with every single person who decide they are not willing to do the responsible thing, we get one step closer to losing the protective effect of the herd and losing lives in a very preventable way.

          • Sandy Perlmutter

            “I have heard of many kids injured by vaccines and none that died from flu or any preventable diseases. ”

            WTF? Don’t they have math on the tinfoil hat sites? Or do you depend on anecdotes? You should get out more, or make better use of the Web.

            Start with WHO, the World Health Organization:
            http://www.who.int/gho/immunization/en/

            “1.5 million children under the age of 5 died from vaccine-preventable diseases in 2008”

            Nice one-page summary:
            http://www.action.org/resources/item/vaccine-preventable-deaths

            Details: Why are children dying (older data):
            http://www.unicef.org/immunization/index_why.html

            American summary of diseases: http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/why/history/index.cfm

            Not just children: http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/PreventableDeaths.html

          • Daleth

            We give 4 times the amount of vaccines than most developed countries.

            No, we don’t. Compare:

            CDC vax schedule
            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

            Pick any European country and look at its schedule (first menu) or pick two European countries and compare them:
            http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx

          • Nick Sanders
          • momofone

            I have no doubt that you wouldn’t intentionally give anyone the flu, but like the rabies comment above, saying you wouldn’t go around people presumes that you would know you had it immediately, and it doesn’t work that way.

          • John

            We live in this constant fears of diseases and to prevent these small chances of someone getting the flu and dying we are pushing EVERYONE to take a chance with a flu vaccine that ALSO has a chance of bad effects. Flue vaccines or most vaccines aren’t guaranteed to work and contrary to propaganda they are not 100% safe. So we are taking chances either way. My feeling is that asking everyone to take a chance it’s a lot worse and higher than letting the natural immunities of the people to develop. If someone is autoimmune compromised most likely they are not in the general public anyway.

          • Charybdis

            Nothing is 100% safe. Nothing. Where did the idea that “natural immunity is better” come from? With vaccines, you get the immunity but don’t have to actually get sick to gain it.

            People who are immunocompromised don’t always live in bubbles or in an isolation ward. Medicines to address autoimmune diseases often have some immunosuppressive action, so those who take them are more susceptible to illnesses. But they get out, go shopping, go to movies, go to the grocery store and to sporting events, where other people mix and mingle. They take precautions, I’m sure, but again, nothing is 100%. So those too young, too old, those who have had a severe or anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine and cannot have them and those who are immunocompromised/immunosuppressed to be vaccinated depend on herd immunity so that they can stay protected from VPD’s.

          • Sandy Perlmutter

            I want to add people who have had organ transplants to your list of immunocompromised people who get out in public. They don’t live in a bubble, even with their new kidney.

          • MaineJen

            Yes, people who are immunosuppressed after organ transplant do walk among us! In greater numbers than the anti-vaxers seem to think. 🙂

          • Sandy Perlmutter

            Very often one doesn’t know. I have an old friend whom I invited to get the shingles vaccine with me. It was only then that I found out he had had a kidney transplant. Poor guy got shingles, too! It gave me a whole new insight into the phenomenon. It is not so many years ago that transplants started.

            “Over 28,000 people get transplants in the U.S. every year. They are a standard, successful treatment for many diseases and conditions. Over half of all organ transplants done in the U.S. are kidney transplants, about a quarter are liver transplants, with the other organs making up the remaining numbers.” Transweb.org

          • momofone

            In my experience, that is not true. I know lots of people with compromised immune systems who continue to work, be part of civic groups/churches/clubs, shop, just generally live in their communities. They also tend to go to doctors’ offices a lot, which are full of sick, germy people. If I have no “natural immunities” what am I left to do? I clearly can’t rely on people around me to be responsible for helping stop the spread of illness.

            Also, I don’t know where you live, but “small chances of someone getting the flu and dying” have translated into the death of a child in my area just a few weeks ago. I think you’re seeing what you want to see rather than reality.

            Also, what is “guaranteed to work”? Nothing is guaranteed, but I’m more comfortable with the odds I get from vaccinating than not. If I have cancer, treatment is not guaranteed to work, but depending on details, I’m a lot more likely to try it than not. If you’re looking for guarantees, hang it up now; they don’t exist.

          • Bombshellrisa

            No. I was at one point studying home birth midwifery and trying to get my degree in naturopathic medicine. I believed a healthy of eating right, taking herbs and balancing my body’s energy was the most autonomous route to health. I was wrong.

          • John

            Sorry to hear that.

            It’s not that I don’t believe in doctors, medicine or science. I’m just careful and don’t believe it’s all 100% good for me. Believe me when I’m really sick, I am very thankful for medicine. But to live in fear constantly it’s ridiculous too

          • Bombshellrisa

            Why would you be sorry to hear that? I had an idea, thought I was reading research that was accurate and changed my mind when shown (by science) how wrong my convictions and conclusions had been. I really don’t know why you think people are vaccinating or choosing conventional therapies out of fear. It’s not fear at all. I would say the paranoia and talk about the extremely rare chance of having a reaction to a vaccine as a reason to avoid them all together is based on fear, even irrational fear.
            Not sure how many people you have personally seen die because they chose to pursue natural ways of curing diseases, but I have seen many. They come to the hospital when they are end stage or dying and there isn’t anything to be done.

          • Sandy Perlmutter

            Kudos for admitting that what you had learned was wrong! It is very unusual for anyone to do that. I salute you!

          • Charybdis

            You don’t know you have it immediately as a lot of these illnesses have an incubation period during which time you are spreading the illness around without realizing it, since you are not sick yet.

            Isolating yourself after symptoms develop is a decent thing to do, but sometimes, it is a little late at that point to think you are keeping others safe.

          • Oh, I very well could be wrong about all sorts of things. Given that I do a lot of research about my positions before I adopt them, though, I require pretty substantial evidence before I change my mind. You, sir, are doing a very bad job of providing that evidence. You could absolutely change my mind; I need peer-reviewed studies from credible sources showing harm from a vaccine that outweighs the harm of the disease it prevents. You got any of those lying around? Then no, you can’t change my mind without them.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I would admit that I am wrong when someone give me reason to do so. Your arguments have failed to do so.

            I am not sure why you are trying to spin this as some kind of logical or moral failing on our part. We are not going to agree with you just because you want us too. It is not hubris to continue to believe that you are right when the vast majority of the evidence is in favor of your position.

            If anyone is hubris here it is you. You are the one who thinks they know more than every public health organization in the world and the vast majority of medical professionals who have over a decade of education under their belts. And based on what? The fact that you find chemicals scary and that you can find a handful of sources that already agree with your position with a half-assed google search?

            All for a lot of illnesses, once you are showing symptoms it is too late for you to quarantine yourself. Also there is this things called “asymptomatic carriers” who don’t show any symptoms but can still pass the disease onto other people.

          • Sandy Perlmutter

            If you were infected with flu virus, you would be contagious to others for several days before you started to feel sick. That is exactly when the rest of us don’t want you anywhere near us, especially those of us who have had organ transplants and cannot be immunized, or the of us having chemotherapy who are immune compromised, etc.

            The incubation period for flu and other viral infections is a time when the virus is multiplying rapidly in the body, but before the immune system has prepared a good attack. (The symptoms such as fever and ache are actually from the immune system working.) So you are full of high quality virus which you can spread around.

          • demodocus

            I’m an asthmatic. Not much triggers it, but being very sick with a respiratory virus can. If the vaccine can ease symptoms even of a variety it’s *not* actively protecting against, I’m for it. Better than getting hospitalized for turning blue. And that’s just my selfish reason, never mind my fetus or my sister with Stage III cancer. Why yes, I am vaccinated for flu and have been for the last several years.

          • LibrarianSarah

            No one is going to throw you out of the country because you refuse to get a flu shot. What we will do is point out that your reasoning is basically “I don’t understand this and therefore it scares me.”

            Everything in the known universe is made up of chemicals. Hate to break it to you but you are just a giant ambulatory sack of chemicals and many (most?) of the chemicals in the vaccine are already in your body. For instance, formaldehyde is made by the liver. Now of course, too much of it could kill you but so could too much water.

            And “man made” chemicals are not necessarily more dangerous than “natural” chemicals. Some of the most deadly things on earth are perfectly natural and “man made” chemicals are derived from “natural” one. Nature isn’t a benevolent deity if go into the forest and start eating berries willy nilly you will most likely end up dead.

            Also vaccines are not injected into your blood but into your muscle. Pro tip: if the doctor (or whatever I don’t know your life) doesn’t try to find a vein before putting the needle in, that shit isn’t going into your bloodstream. Vaccines are just as much “in your blood” as the food you eat.

          • Bombshellrisa

            I can’t open the study, but I do wonder about confounders. Someone who works in a hospital/nursing home/doctor’s office is going to be around a lot of people in close proximity to their coughs and sniffles and would more likely to get the vaccine but also more likely to get sick. Same for school kids.

          • Azuran

            I’d say it’s an interesting result, but you don’t turn all of the known science around and instantly stop flu vaccination because 1 study show something different.
            When you have an interesting finding, you try to repeat it. If it’s repeatable, then you are onto something.
            Then you go deeper, why is it like that? What exactly is going on there? Is the increased risk significant or is the vaccine still saving way more lives than it harms? Could this eventually lead us to more effective vaccination?
            It’s interesting, but we are far from having enough info to decide that we should stop flu vaccination.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Actually what you linked was not a scientific study but a press release for a study. Press releases are like advertisements that colleges and universities use in order to gain more grants and to attract graduate students. You need to take whatever is written in a press release with a mountain of salt. They tend to overstate the greatly overstate the significance of the study since they are basically the academic equivalent of an infomercial.

          • Charybdis

            And that antibiotics don’t work on viral diseases like the flu, measles, mumps and rubella?

            Edit: This was a reply to John…

        • We’ll stop when children stop dying of diseases, or when the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risks of catching the disease. There have been a few vaccines developed that never made it through testing because of that very reason, in fact.

          No, there are not numerous studies showing that if you get a flu vaccine this year, you’ll be more likely to catch the flu next year. There are a lot of strains of influenza, and each year scientists and epidemiologists try to figure out which one(s) are going to be the predominant ones that year. Then they develop vaccines for that strain. They aren’t always right, and because the influenza vaccine has a long lead time, sometimes the vaccine isn’t as effective as we would hope because it doesn’t have the right strains. However, it certainly doesn’t make you more vulnerable to next year’s strain, though it won’t protect you either.

          800 children in one year brain-dead from avian flu vaccine? I’m going to need sources on that, because I’m calling bullshit. That would have been a MAJOR news story, given that any vaccine has a minuscule (1 in a million) chance of any serious reaction, and a much smaller chance than that of death. You shouldn’t be terrified, and you should get new sources if they are lying to you like that in order to keep you terrified.

          How do you figure we have more diseases now than in the past? We are better at catching and classifying them now, that’s for sure; before a child would have been diagnosed as “sickly” and died young, now they are diagnosed as having an autoimmune disorder or celiac disease or whatever actually ails them. That’s a good thing. Yes, we still don’t know how to fix or treat a lot of that, but at least we know what’s wrong! You know why so many people die of cancer these days? They aren’t dying of diseases anymore! Again, this is a good thing. It means that as we make progress against our ancient microbial nemeses , we start seeing more of other things come up.

          Vaccines are us being careful. Measles infected thousands in the US as recently as the late 1980s/early 1990s. Tens of thousands of children were hospitalized (about one quarter of infected children needed to be hospitalized), and hundreds died. You know what caused that to stop happening? Vaccines. Vaccines save lives. Period. I have kept my eyes and ears and heart open, and every single speck of evidence we have says that, if you believe in any gods, you should drop to your knees and thank Him/Her/Them for vaccines, that’s how amazing they are.

          • John

            For someone with an open heart you seem to be very absolute in your opinions. When you say Vaccines are safe, that’s an exageration. Here is the link to the info about the swine flu damage

            http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572

            I’m just curious is there ANY information or different thought that might make you think, “Well, maybe there is something a LITTLE fishy about this, and maybe forcing people to stick all this stuff in them, one day, we’ll find out that it ACTUALLY does more harm than good?

            I, for one, admit I may be a little wrong an SOME of the vaccines may be beneficial. The problem I’m having it’s that most of the people like you selves don’t even want to admit that there is a small possibility that you may be wrong. It’s almost like you believe that YOU are Gods.

          • Who?

            Curious that the site you link to won’t let me read the item, because I have an ad blocker. You’d think they were trying to make a profit, or cover their costs, or something.

            Doesn’t that make them the bad guys?

          • John

            Lol…no, I told you, no problem with profit. But really what do you think about that. You think it’s made up? For real

          • Who?

            I can’t read it, because I don’t want to see the ads that pay for it, so I can’t say.

          • John

            I’m thinking most big news outlets TV and print, wouldn’t get involved simply because half their income comes from Pharma companies.

          • Nick Sanders

            Cite that.

          • Oh how cute, now the insults come out. No, John, I’m well aware of the fact that vaccines can be harmful. Smallpox, for instance, wasn’t a pleasant vaccine, and early polio vaccines weren’t great either. They were hugely better than getting either of those diseases, but they would never pass modern day safety standards.

            The H1N1 vaccine in Europe was indeed unsafe. I dug more into it, and you’re right, something about the adjuvanted variety sold in Europe (but not the US) did cause narcolepsy and/or cataplexy in a small but unacceptable percentage of children who got the vaccine. There was no way to predict it, and it sucks that it happened. Given that swine flu that year killed ~200,000 people worldwide. In the US, there were about 60.8 million cases of swine flu with about 12,500 deaths, for a death rate of ~0.002%. Not a ton, right? But of the 60 million people who got the vaccine in Europe, approximately 800 of them developed cataplexy or narcolepsy, for a rate of ~0.00017%. So if you didn’t get the vaccine and did get the flu, you had a 10x higher chance of dying than if you did of getting a very serious complication if you got the vaccine. You weigh the odds- the vaccine was still worth it and still did less harm than not having it, even though it did harm.

            That’s the kind of analysis that makes me dismiss you, John. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you’re not willing to do the 10 minutes of research I did to find this out before spewing your paranoia onto the Internet.

          • Charybdis

            So, just for laughs, which ones do you think *might* be beneficial?

            Do you vaccinate your animals (if you have any)? What about a rabies series if you get bitten by an animal?

          • John

            If, and when I get bit by an animal with rabies I would vaccinate, yes.

          • Charybdis

            But that’s the dilemma: If you get bitten by a stray or wild animal and the animal isn’t caught and either killed or quarantined to determine if it has rabies and vaccination status can’t be verified, you need to get the shots.

            Would you?

          • John

            I probably would, but here is the thing. The chance I will get bit is very very small. If I choose to vaccinate, there is 100% chance I will have all of the ingredients in me forever. I am not against medicine or science.

          • momofone

            And if you don’t vaccinate, there is a 100% chance you will die of rabies if bitten by an infected animal. Maybe it’s just me, but those are not odds I’m comfortable with.

          • Nick Sanders

            If I choose to vaccinate, there is 100% chance I will have all of the ingredients in me forever.

            Not how biology works. Not at all…

          • Charybdis

            How can you say you are not against medicine or science when everything you post screams otherwise?

          • John

            I’m talking ONLY about the premise of injecting man made chemicals inside my body for the supposed goal to PREVENT diseases. That is it. The fact that you take that clear and simple point and assume that I am against medicine and science shows me how your preconceived ideas are making it impossible for me to have a debate with you regarding vaccinations. All the best to you!

          • Charybdis

            Man made chemicals such as what? Seriously, because formaldehyde, aluminum and mercury have already been proven to not be a concern.

            From http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

            Formaldehyde has a long history of safe use in the manufacture of certain viral and bacterial vaccines. It is used to inactivate viruses so that they don’t cause disease (e.g., polio virus used to make polio vaccine) and to detoxify bacterial toxins, such as the toxin used to make diphtheria vaccine. Formaldehyde is diluted during the vaccine manufacturing process, but residual quantities of formaldehyde may be found in some current vaccines. The amount of formaldehyde present in some vaccines is so small compared to the concentration that occurs naturally in the body that it does not pose a safety concern.

            Formaldehyde is also produced naturally in the human body as a part of normal functions of the body to produce energy and build the basic materials needed for important life processes. This includes making amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins that the body needs.

            Formaldehyde is also found in the environment and is present in different ways. It is used in building materials, as a preservative in labs and to produce many household products.

            The body continuously processes formaldehyde, both from what it makes on its own and from what it has been exposed to in the environment. When the body breaks down formaldehyde, it does not distinguish between formaldehyde from vaccines and that which is naturally produced or environmental. The amount of formaldehyde in a person’s body depends on their weight; babies have lower amounts than adults. Studies have shown that for a newborn of average weight of 6 – 8 pounds, the amount of formaldehyde in their body is 50-70 times higher than the upper amount that they could receive from a single dose of a vaccine or from vaccines administered over time.

            Aluminum

            Aluminum salts are incorporated into some vaccine formulations as an adjuvant. An adjuvant is a substance added to some vaccines to enhance the immune response of vaccinated individuals. The aluminum salts in some U.S. licensed vaccines are aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, alum (potassium aluminum sulfate), or mixed aluminum salts. For example: aluminum salts are used in DTaP vaccines, the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, and hepatitis B vaccines.

            Aluminum adjuvant containing vaccines have a demonstrated safety profile of over six decades of use and have only uncommonly been associated with severe local reactions. Of note, the most common source of exposure to aluminum is from eating food or drinking water.

            From http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/goes-vaccine/
            Mercury

            Thimerosal (ethylmercury)

            Why is it used? This mercury-containing ingredient has been used as a preservative in vaccines since the 1930s. Today, it is only found in vaccines for influenza. Preservatives are necessary for preventing dangerous bacterial or fungal contamination, but thimerosal has since become a major source of vaccine safety concerns.

            Health concerns? While mercury is a naturally-occurring element found in soil, water, and food, large amounts of it can be harmful, especially for children. Back in 1997, children were receiving three vaccines that together contained more mercury than the EPA recommended limit (though not more than the FDA limit). This led to speculation that thimerosal in vaccines could be linked to autism or other conditions.

            Is it safe? Years of research have reduced concerns here. The type of mercury found in thimerosal, ethylmercury, differs from methylmercury, the type commonly found in fish and known to be harmful in large amounts. Ethylmercury is broken down and excreted from the body much more quickly than methylmercury, and no scientific study has found a link between ethylmercury and autism or any other harmful effects.

            Amount in vaccines? Nonetheless, several public health agencies and vaccine manufacturers agreed in 1999 to cease using thimerosal as a precautionary measure. Today, no vaccine contains Thimerosal except the influenza vaccine, and Thimerosal-free alternatives are available.

            This site (publichealth.org) gives a cracking overview of vaccines, why they work, why they are safe and addresses myths.

            Not that that means diddly-squat to you.

          • swbarnes2

            To be fair, dosage is what makes the poison, all those chemicals are safe in the amounts that vaccines contain.

          • Charybdis

            This is true, but the amounts in vaccines are miniscule.

  • dune

    Great tips on how to avoid vaccines. You are a life saver!

  • Amy n Erik

    This mother rocks. I’d do it in a heart beat. Herd immunity is a myth.

  • David

    Do you know what sv40 is? are you aware that a CDC scientist was busted for covering up deaths related to gardasil ? have you seen the movie Silent Epidemic: The untold story of vaccination….Dr Amy Fool Sheeple….You’re an idiot

  • Jamie

    Thanks for posting this! Some really great tips in here if they make vaccines mandatory! Now I know I can get a fake record for my kids!

    • Stacy48918

      Ah, a fine up-standing member of society. Will you teach your children to lie too?

      • momofone

        Certainly by example, if not outright.

  • vaccinesareunsafe

    Anybody that poisons their child will, of course, stand forever by their decision to do so. They will never admit that they have been fooled by Big Pharma and you will never hear them say, ” I shouldn’t have listened to my doctor”. I feel sorry for the children of these ignorant people that spend more time on Facebook then researching the efficacy of vaccines.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      You don’t know what “research” means…

    • Box of Salt

      vaccines are safer than diseases.
      Approximately 25% of the infected during this current measles outbreak have required hospitalization:
      http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/29/measles-outbreak-dangerousness/22521529/
      Scroll past the “Why Measles Spreads So Easily” graphic.

      • John

        But you are asking millions to take the chance on vaccines. 25% of a few hundred is A LOT less than 1% of 100,000,000. Plus, from what I heard no one was hospitalized in any serious condition. Have you heard of the 800 brain dead kids after they took the Avion flu shot in England. I’d say that’s some critical hospitalization. Few years ago, the English government had to pay 24 mil. Or so. Government meaning the people through their taxes.

        • Who?

          The reason only a few hundred got measles is that most people were vaccinated against it.

          And the profits big pharma made out of the medications for those hospitalised people would have been much greater than the profits on a few hundred MMR vaccs.

    • DaisyGrrl

      I feel sorry for people who think that we’d be better off if smallpox was still around…

      • Jamie

        I love it when provax nazis bring up small pox. We haven’t vaccinated for small pox since the 70’s , and at that time only 20% of the population was inoculated.

        • DaisyGrrl

          That’s kind of my point. I’ve never been vaccinated against smallpox because it was effectively eradicated before I was born (both my parents were vaccinated). We’re close to eradicating polio, and thus the need for polio vaccines.

          If we can eradicate the disease, we don’t have to subject anyone to the minimal risk of vaccination. And while not every disease on the vaccine schedule can be eradicated, I think it’s worthwhile to eliminate the ones we can.

        • Wren

          Why do you think we no longer vaccinate for small pox?

  • you are the nut.

  • Lad112

    I don’t understand why she would need to do this. If she lives in MA, all she has to do is write a letter and say, “vaccines conflict with our sincere religious beliefs.” If she moves, she should just stay away from Mississippi. Even West Virginia provides home schooling at the expense of the state for those with religious exemptions. “Religion” is such a broad term for the Supreme Court that she could believe the moon is made of green cheese and it would be covered.

    Regardless of my vaccine opinions, this is fraud and I live in MA. I’ll sleuth it out and if I can identify her as easily as you all could I’ll report it tomorrow. Not cool.

    • momofone

      This is one of the few times I’ve been glad to be a Mississippi resident.

      • John

        Mississippi has the worst health in the nation.

        • momofone

          And one of the lowest rates of vaccine-preventable illnesses. Weird, huh?

          • John

            Interesting. I’d like to see where you found that Stat at? I knew they have the highest SIDS rate. Weird, huh?

          • demodocus

            SIDS is not a vaccine preventable disease.

          • John

            You are right. I was just thinking, could 20 or so doses of vaccinations that all children in Mississippi are obligated to take in the first year of life have anything to do with it, or is it just a mere coincidence. Pretty sure there is no known cause of SIDS, so just brainstorming. Mississippi is only one of 3 states besides CA and West VA who don’t allow any phylosophical or religious exemption. Just a thought.

          • You know what is correlated with SIDS? Poverty. You know what isn’t? Vaccines.

            Your “just a thoughts” are bullshit, John. You have absolutely no reason to think that vaccines have anything to do with SIDS, you just are looking for a way to make vaccines look bad with insinuations. We all know that’s how Fox “News” does their thing too, and I would hope we’re all educated enough not to fall for it.

          • momofone

            Oh, they aren’t obligated to get them. They only have to have them if their parents want them to go to school/live in society.

          • John

            And that makes sense to you. What if I really believe that my God made me perfect and I would only go to doctors if I need them? What if the premise of vaccination is wrong, not totally, but in some cases. You are obligating people to stick potentially harmful chemicals inside their bodies to be accepted in your society. What if you are wrong and are falling for a big, very intricate lie? That would be sad. I hope you are right and we are wrong. Otherwise it really would be very sad. I can’t sleep at night. I feel so violated, kicked out of my country for my belief. It sucks. I hope I’ll find someday that it was my fault and not yours…easier for me to know I did it all to myself and not others. But it’s tough.
            You do realize that in most developed countries they tecommend, not obligate their citizens to have less than a fourth of the vaccines we give here. Why? We have higher cancer rates, obesity, diabetes, heart disease rates than most. Anyway, obviously you guys mean well, you don’t hate your kids and I don’t either. We just look at it differently. When I look at my boy crawl around and starting to walk, and smiling all day, the last thing I thing he needs is a hepatitis b va. Ine, JUST IN CASE he has a sexual encounter or gets an infected blood transfusion.

          • momofone

            It does make sense to me. And as I look at my son, and see how big he has become in what seems like no time, I realize that there are innumerable things beyond my control that could/will/might happen to him, some of them unthinkably awful (sexual assault, for example), and I could not live with myself if I didn’t offer him the best protection I can. Vaccinations are within my control, and are safer than not vaccinating. Someday he will have sexual encounters. Someday he may need a blood transfusion. I want him to be as protected as possible.

            “You are obligating people to stick potentially harmful chemicals inside their bodies to be accepted in your society.” If you mean I support vaccination when it isn’t precluded by medical issues, I absolutely do. I have family members whose lives were/are at risk due to compromised immune systems and other issues. I also put my money where my mouth is; I make sure my son is fully vaccinated, and I make sure I am also up to date. I can’t imagine the horror of passing along a preventable disease and costing someone’s life. Fortunately, because of vaccines, I don’t have to.

          • Nick Sanders

            What if I really believe that my God made me perfect and I would only go to doctors if I need them?

            Then I’d point to the separation of church and state and tell you that you are out of luck.

            What if you are wrong and are falling for a big, very intricate lie?

            A lie with more moving parts and more people in on it and saying nothing than the largest conspiracy Hollywood has ever dreamed up outside of The X-Files.

          • Nick Sanders
          • demodocus

            The age group most at risk for SIDS is also the age group that gets the most vaccinations, has the most growth spurts, and most likely to change eye color. Speculate away, but if memory serves, infants across the board are both getting more varieties of vaccinations and are quite a bit less likely to die of SIDS than my own generation.

          • swbarnes2

            Where are you getting that stat? Looking at the CDC WONDER database for 2007-2013, Arkansas has the highest SIDS rate. Louisiana, WV, Montana and Mississippi are also high. SIDS rates are higher for AA’s, even college-educated mothers compared to college educated white families, so that’s probably what’s driving the high stats in some of those states.

  • Jennifer Clark

    The anti-vaxers will hate this thought-if their children decide to go into the military, they don’t have a choice, they will get vaccinated against EVERYTHING under the sun. When they start basic, one of the first things that happens is they get their vaccinations. TDP, MMR, polio, Hep A, Hep B, meningitis, you name it. They even get a flu shot, depending on the time of year. They might also get one against chicken pox (they have blood drawn to see if they have the antibody. If they have it, no shot. If not, they get to have an extra shot).

    • another good reason not to join the military besides fighting wars that dont matter.

    • Sandy Perlmutter

      The military don’t believe the tooth fairy is going to keep the soldiers “naturally” healthy. They vaccinate them because there is scientific evidence that it is a good idea to do so. They are aware that many of them were raised by troglodytes and never vaccinated.

  • Tim

    This is MONSTROUS and this person should be ashamed of herself. Utterly ashamed. Schools make accommodations to try and keep immune compromised children away from unvaccinated children based on the accuracy of these records. This person is putting those children at massive risk because of her selfishness.

    • paul dave

      Just in case anyone needs to fill out a Immunization Form, I found a blank form in this site PDFfiller. This site also has several Immunization form templates that you might find useful.

  • Will’s mama

    Note to self, no play dates with Elliot, and be careful who I buy French pottery from.

    • Will’s mama

      Seriously, that shouldn’t have taken me just two clicks.

  • Christopher Hickie

    I’ve caught parents fudging on vaccines. It’s lame and dangerous. I do wish that somehow, ( esp with 2D barcoding on vaccines ) that administration (at the time of administration via EHRs) was clearly recorded in a central (i.e. national) vaccine registry. So many things would be made easier and simpler by this.

    • Trixie

      Omg the conspiracy nuts would FREAK OUT at this prospect. Of course, most of them probably think it already exists.

      • John

        I am an anti toxins in my blood nut. Believe me when I tell you, I do care about my child and yours. I just look at it a little different than you. The reason I don’t want these toxins in my child’s bloodstream is because I know they have potential for many different side effects, per CDC, and they are not guaranteed to work anyway. I most likely did lot more research on the subject on this than you did, because I don’t just follow the heard and believe everything Johnson and Johnson tells me. We, the anti vax “nuts” care enough about our children health to take lots of time and actually research what is in the vaccines, what side effects they have…all information on the CDC site. You are just spewing propaganda that is given to you on TV and at the drug store. Half of commercials on TV are for drugs. They own the TV companies. Not conspiracy, fact. So, please, stop insulting and educate yourself; being part of the heard is a lot easier.

        • momofone

          I’d love to hear about your “research.” How did you design it and carry it out? Where can I find your results so that I can try to replicate them?

          • John

            Lots of independent studies show that vaccinated children are 3 to 4 times likely to develop asthma, seizures, learning disabilities, allergies, neurological impairments. Unfortunately, our government hasn’t done any of these studies. Why? It would be pretty easy. Most of the “research” that our government uses its done by the exact companies who are selling us these vaccines. Seriously, dies that make any sense to you? Just for a second, imagine that you are being duped. Maybe not, but maybe yes. I have lots of friends who never vaccinated their kids and I very tarelyhear them their kids are sick. On the other hand, all my vaccinated friends have some sort of illness every 2 months or so. Crazy. The flu and flu shot is the most obvious.

          • momofone

            Oh, I’m sorry–I must have misunderstood. I thought you said YOU had done research. This sounds as if you’re talking about other people’s research. What you mean is you read some things other people wrote.

          • John

            Yes, I read others writing, but I try to also use my intuition a bit and think for myself. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Have you done any studies. I would love to hear about it.

          • momofone

            I didn’t claim to have done research; you did. “Intuition” does not equal research.

        • Nick Sanders

          Holy shit, don’t grave dig. For fuck’s sake…

          • John

            Sorry, I came upon this link on Google somehow. You’re right, what’s the point?it seems this topic is always just black and white. Unfortunately one side is winning in forcing the other to do something that seems to them like a terrible violation of one’s independence. Pretty scarry. If you’re on the winning side, you’re ok! Enjoy! Just imagine, for one second though, that your side is wrong on this one. Just maybe. I hope not, but maybe!

        • Mom2Many

          Before you parachute in on a comment written 2 years ago and assume that the poster has done less research than yourself, perhaps you would do well to educate yourself on some of the amazing commenters who regularly contribute here. You write that you have likely done more research than this commenter…and that you do not follow the ‘heard’.
          Perhaps you would do well to remember what they say about those who assume…

          • John

            I responded to a rude comment. I am sure that you have thoughts or opinions that others may not agree with you. If they call you nuts, would you have any respect for them or would you really think that type of person even has the ability to do research

        • Bombshellrisa

          I suppose we don’t have to worry about you or your family accepting blood products then. Wouldn’t want to accidentally get the blood of someone who had been fully vaccinated while saving your life or that of a loved one.

          • John

            Here is the thing. If God forbid me or my family need blood, whuxh of course can happen, I’d have to try my best to find a solution to get healthy. That is very different than forcing me to take 30 or 60 doses of chemicals to supposedly prevent me from getting sick. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I responded to a rude comment calling those like me, who my not agree with your way of thinking, Nuts.

          • Bombshellrisa

            30-60 0.5ml doses over a lifetime is at most (60 doses) a shot glass.

          • John

            I hear you. And I know vast majority of times nothing happens, but I am still scarred. I know people who had their completely healthy child vaccinated (pretty sure it was the MMR) and next day the kid , around 2 year old, stopped looking at her, was staring into space and eventually was diagnosed with some neurological condition. This lady is a nephrologist. I see no reason why she would lie to me. I know it’s not the vaccine only, but maybe a combination of the vaccine with some genetic predisposition. But how ta heck do I make sure my kid doesn’t have that same predisposition. I try to not feed him any sodas and preservatives and GMO stuff and that’s in the digestive system, which I assume is a better filter. So introducing this shot with formaldehyde, aluminum, preservatives, etc. Directly in his blood is scarry, taking a chance. I don’t know

          • Bombshellrisa

            If she is a nephrologist, she might want to stick to kidneys.
            Think about it this way, it’s the equivalent of sipping a few drops from a shot glass, with years in between sips over a lifetime. A ml or cc is four-five drops, and the dose for an mmr is half of an ml.

          • John

            Wow, are human or a robot? Who cares what she is? Why would she lie that the next day after a vaccine, her child completely changed into a vegetable? I’m sure your answer is coincidence so don’t even bother answering.

          • Nick Sanders

            Why would she tell an untruth that got her lots of fame and money? Gee, that truly is a mystery.

          • Bombshellrisa

            Someone who specializes in kidneys wouldn’t be who I would consult with if I had a seizure. I also wouldn’t go to a neurologist if I needed to consult about renal failure. They might be able to give very basic information, but big decisions and complex conditions require the knowledge and training that go with particular specialties. It would be unwise to base the future health of your child on word of mouth from someone speaking outside of their specialty

          • John

            This happened to her. I did not ask her for any opinion. She could have been a housekeeper or a bus driver. It has nothing to do with what happened to her child immediately after a vaccine.

          • Bombshellrisa

            And yet you felt it was important to identify her as a nephrologist.

          • John

            I just thought most of you pro vaxers believe MD’S don’t lie, so I gave you that information.

          • Charybdis

            Why would you think that?

          • Bombshellrisa

            Exactly. Two words…..Andrew Wakefield

          • Bombshellrisa

            It’s not about if she is lying or not. You identified the source of your information as a doctor, thinking it lends more weight to your argument and it does not.

          • Who?

            Being scared is reasonable. Letting your fear lead you to poor decision making is not reasonable.

            Vaccines don’t go directly into anyone’s blood.

            If your child is going to suffer a brain injury from a temperature, that will happen the first time he gets a temperature, however he gets it. And he’ll get hotter if he’s sick for days on end than he will from an injection.

            Consider this woman, who thought vaccines were ‘crap’, until she gave her tiny baby whooping cough.
            http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-05/mother-regrets-decision-to-reject-whooping-cough-vaccine/7301836

          • Charybdis

            You’d look for a way to get healthy to avoid the transfusion or get healthy after the transfusion? Because after the transfusion, you’ve already got the “toxins” in your system from the blood.

            Unless you are a homeopathic “remedy” enthusiast, because the dilution of the “toxins” in the vaccine received by the blood donor might just kill you.

        • Who?

          Can you tell me one thing that is guaranteed? Except ultimately, death?

          What, if anything, do you think is guaranteed by your decision to keep your blood ‘toxin free’?

          • John

            The one thing that is guaranteed is that if, God forbid, my kid gets some sort of cancer autoimmune disease and the doctors/scientists say they don’t know what caused it, I’ll never have to wonder if maybe, somehow, those 60 doses of vaccines that I CHOSE to put inside him might have ANYTHING to do with it.

          • Who?

            You’ll wonder anyway. I get that you’re sincere in your beliefs, and I see they are grounded in faith. What if God means you to take advantage of all the amazing benefits modern science, including medicine, gives? And in picking and choosing you are in error?

  • Jocelyn

    OT – do you guys remember this woman from Baby Center (http://www.skepticalob.com/2013/06/mother-eating-her-words-baby-fighting-for-her-life.html) who said that hospitals were unnecessary (for anything), and then had a home birth gone-wrong? Well, I just found her blog today and it turned out that the twin injured during her home birth died a couple days later. 🙁

    Here’s her blog, with the story of how it all happened: http://dreahlouis.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-midwife-from-hell.html

    • Amy M

      Wow that is heartbreaking. At least she is getting support on her blog and not shunned. Too bad the behaviour of the midwife is all too predictable.

    • omg this part:

      “I gave another push and she came out. She wasn’t crying she was just laying there on the stretcher. At this time it is about 10:45pm and Joann came running through the door. Her first action was to hug Jennifer while my daughter laid on the floor non responsive.”

      WTF SERIOUSLY? she waited hours for this midwife to show up and when the 2nd twin came out unresponsive she friggin hugged the other midwife instead of springing into action???

      • Amy M

        Totally sick. That “midwife” should clearly be in jail, but of course, never will be.

      • anion

        Did you see the comments? Near the bottom she says that other midwives have said she’s (the mother) to blame and “should have known better.”

        I guess they mean she should have known better than to trust one of them?

        Your midwifery client is 40 weeks along with twins and you take a road trip to a city three+ hours away?

        • Becky05

          Of course it is the mother’s fault, it always is! The mother is responsible for researching and making medical decisions, and the midwife is just responsible for helping to give the mother what she wants.

          • Squillo

            Indeed.

            “I’m not responsible for the accident, your honor. I just gave the defendant the bottle of Scotch and handed her the car keys when she asked for them.”

        • Anj Fabian

          And when the client is in labor, said midwife doesn’t tell her to go to the hospital but to wait at home for her there, knowing that she was hours away.

          She didn’t even send the backup ‘midwife’ over until later.

          It was cascade of incompetence and irresponsibility.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Whoa. I just read her blog. She was pregnant with mo-mo twins and this CPM accepted her as a client for a home birth? There is no excuse for that. That was basically guaranteeing a bad outcome.

    • Renee Martin

      This was on here a month or so ago. Poor mom.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD
        • Meerkat

          This is so sad. This mother’s rant about herbs and hospitals sounded really stupid, but I am glad she had the courage to admit she was wrong. My heart breaks for her and her daughter.
          Her decision to have a home birth was stupid and naive. But, despite of that, I really feel that the blame should lay elsewhere. These birth junkie CPMs are deceiving and harming their clients. They are criminals!!! Let’s be realistic—our US government and its agencies are doing a reasonably good job in protecting us from major problems. Our food supply, water, medicines, and cosmetics are regulated and safe. US Agencies are making sure our restaurants don’t poison us and that our buildings are safe. We have laws that protect consumers, employees, and patients. Yes, I know that we have many problems, but we haven’t experienced any real system breakdowns, not yet, and I pray that we never will. I think that this creates a false sense of security. Americans can’t conceive that there are “health care professionals” who are allowed to practice without any education, any standards, any outside monitoring, any insurance, and, finally, any accountability.

          • Dreah Louis

            I think that honestly a lot of women see that Im a black woman and they start bashing at me its natural I understand. Twins rain in my community. I know black women that lost twins in the hospital so lay off the name calling. Black women are not even birthing at home we are all having our babies in the hospital. You white women are birthing at home more than us colored women so lets just stop the name calling. Your calling me naïve and stupid and that is absolutely wrong but your free to say what you want. I received poor treatment because I am black woman. She didn’t take me as serious as her white clients.

          • attitude devant

            I haven’t commented on your story before, but I have followed your blog, and she never should have taken you on as a client at all. Home birth is not for high-risk conditions and twins are high risk. I am sorry your daughter died—your midwife was derelict in her duty every step of the way

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Not sure why you’re bringing race into this. You’re being very combative, honestly. We’re on your side, here.

          • Dreah Louis

            race if very important in my situation but I don’t do name calling at all and one of these women had the nerve to call me stupid and naive

          • Dreah Louis

            I fighting a race issue also you have no idea

          • Trixie

            I completely believe that you are also fighting a race issue. Still, most commenters on this site are not out to get you. They/we want to see this midwife punished and to make sure your situation can’t happen again.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Well, I’ll take your word for it, not having experienced your situation for myself (I’m white).

          • Dreah Louis

            most women who are reading my blog are! No black women at all can you imagine that.

          • AlisonCummins

            I’m white too, but I’ve been on the receiving end of racism when going out with black people. Denied service in restaurants, refused rentals by landlords, followed by clerks and detectives in stores. I’ve seen people who weren’t white or english-speaking treated truly shamefully by retail staff — the same staff who seconds later turn to me with a nice smile and great service. Being white is not a great excuse for ignorance.

            People who experience racism directly every day do talk about what it’s like. They often make great efforts to sensitize white people. The least we can do is listen politely and undefensively.

          • Meerkat

            Your race has nothing to do with me calling your decision (not you) naive and stupid. Yes, I am white, but I am also an immigrant, so trust me—I know what discrimination feels like. I also wanted to make a stupid and naive decision and fight my doctor to avoid all and any interventions to get a natural birth. I am afraid to think of what would happen to my son if I did, because he was in distress and required an emergency C-section. Thankfully I found this blog when I was pregnant, and it helped me avoid disaster.

          • Dreah Louis

            🙂

          • Dreah Louis

            I love it when a white person says they know what discrimination feels like NO YOU DON’T. It sounds good but no you don’t. I find it odd that your trying to say what you really meant but your like the rest of the mothers speaking on my blog on the chapter titled “Midwives Should have to carry insurance.

          • attitude devant

            Your analysis of what’s going on with NARM is spot-on. And I have to agree that I have found the assumptions of the homebirth crowd to be shockingly racist: you know, the whole “The way primitive women do it is the right way,” and the underlying assumptions about women’s roles in a family. When you say she didn’t treat you as well as she would’ve treated you a white client, what do you mean? Was is something specific that happened? Was she at another birth the night you went into labor? (Frankly, I think she had no business taking you on as a client at all, but that’s another story.)

          • Anj Fabian

            It’s very easy to find stories of “The midwife didn’t make it in time for the birth.”.

            They are all over the internet. There are stories where the midwife told their client to stay home, sometimes for hours while the midwife reassured the client that she was on the way. At least one woman lost her baby because of that advice.

            The midwife’s responsibility to her client when the client calls and reports that she is in labor is to IMMEDIATELY go to the client and assess the situation. Leaving the client unattended is negligent.

          • Daleth

            I was born at home without a midwife because the midwife “assessed the situation” and concluded that I wouldn’t arrive until the next morning, so she decided to go home, sleep, get her own kids up and fed and then come back. Oops–a couple hours after midnight, there I was. Fortunately everything went well, no problems for me or mom, but it’s still a bit shocking that the midwife did that.

          • AmyP

            There are white people who know what discrimination feels like. If you have a heavy foreign accent (and not one of the good ones), or you weigh 400 pounds, or if you are missing a limb or two, or if you have terrible teeth, or a medical condition that causes unusual body odor, or a speech impediment, or any number of afflictions, life isn’t going to be all sugar and spice. I was reading post from a guy who has to wear an eye patch, and I don’t know what his race is, but you wouldn’t believe how much garbage he puts up with in a job dealing with the public.

            http://captainawkward.com/2013/10/04/514-justifying-your-deviance-from-ordinary-in-a-work-setting/

            When you’re suffering, I know it feels like everybody has it better than you and that nobody cares. I “only” had a late miscarriage at 13 weeks (found out at 14 weeks, had to have a hospital induction at 15), but I know how angry I felt at the people who were supposed to love me but didn’t seem to care, at all. (Or at least that’s how it felt at the time.)

            I don’t know if you’ve been able to find a bereavement group or counseling, but this is not something you should have to face alone.

          • Dreah Louis

            again thanks all for reading my story hope it helps mothers and children.

          • Dreah Louis

            you started this discussion with a nasty comment and you want to tell me that your sorry for my loss your not sorry really you just don’t want to sound like a witch on here.

          • Meerkat

            I am really surprised that my comment offended you more then comments saying that you deserved what you got. I don’t feel that way.
            My condolences to you are sincere. Believe it or not, I am not the enemy.

          • Dreah Louis

            “This is so sad. This mother’s rant about herbs and hospitals sounded really stupid, but I am glad she had the courage to admit she was wrong. My heart breaks for her and her daughter.
            Her decision to have a home birth was stupid and naive.”
            This is what you wrote and you want me to believe that your sorry for my loss.

          • toni

            Thinking a person was unwise and gullible doesn’t mean you don’t care about their suffering. We all do daft things and take risks sometimes but usually we don’t end up suffering the worst pain imaginable because of it. Ignore the callous poster who said you deserved this, you don’t. There was no malice in your decision to homebirth, you were just ignorant of the risks and far too optimistic it would seem.

          • Trixie

            I’m fully willing to believe she treated you poorly because of race. But she also treated you poorly because she was dangerously incompetent. If you were white, with the same pregnancy complications, your homebirth outcome would still have been bad.

          • Dreah Louis

            yes but Its hard to prove incompetence with midwives they stick together like glue

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Dreah, you should go to the Hurt by Homebirth site (linked on the sidebar). Many of the women here have experience what you have, and been ostracized by the midwifery community and the home birth community after their home birth disaster.

          • Dreah Louis

            yes I know about hurt by homebirth but I try to do less debating and talking about the issue because to be honest talking about it over the internet comes with no real power or action towards something better. I find it that a lot of people have opinions and opinions are not changing anything. This is a real war and I take it very serious. I know what the problem is and its NARM and the state regulators. Midwives are working under a non profit organization with no real accountability and somehow the conversations in these different forums gets away from where the real problem lays. The problem is that NARM is playing GOD and they have protected their self and each other very well. Thanks for the referral though

          • anion

            You’re right about what the problem is, and while I understand your feeling I disagree that talking about it on the internet comes with no real power or action. Your story may be saving a baby’s life right now.

          • Trixie

            The mere fact that she took you as a patient is proof of her incompetence.

          • Anj Fabian

            http://www.twinsuk.co.uk/twinstips/4/135/twin-pregnancy-&-multiple-births/monochorionic-monoamniotic-twins—high-risk-pregnancy/

            “Unfortunately. monoamniotic twins face a lot of potential health hazards
            throughout pregnancy. Many of these can be life threatening. so it is
            important to make sure that you receive specialised care if you are
            experiencing this type of twin pregnancy.”

          • Jocelyn

            Yes, they do. It’s absolutely shameful.

          • Meerkat

            Dreah, let me begin by saying that I am very very sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your family.
            I called your decision to have twins at home stupid because it was a very risky move. But I also think that you are brave, and your subsequent admission that you made a mistake was a very courageous thing to do. I applaud your decision to fight for accountability, and I sincerely hope that your midwife ends up in prison.
            The whole point of my comment was that you are a victim in this situation. I am sure you thought you were hiring a professional, someone who would take care of you. You had no reason to doubt her credentials, after all—majority of businesses that have to do with patient safety are very strictly regulated here in US.
            Majority of people on this forum feel a great deal of compassion for women who lost their babies because of home birth, we are not trying to attack you.

          • AmyP

            I am so sorry for your loss.

            All of us are naive and vulnerable when we’re operating outside our area of expertise. If your mechanic says, “We need to do blah-blah-blah and it’s going to cost $1,000” and you’re not a mechanic, he could easily take advantage of you. Ditto an insurance salesman, a financial adviser or anybody else who has expert knowledge and sells stuff to people who don’t have that knowledge.

            The public is always going to be at the mercy of people who claim expertise–we simply are not in a position to tell if they are telling the truth. The question is, how should we deal with the fact that the public is not in a position to evaluate these experts? That’s one of the issues that gets discussed here. One of the answers is that the CPM credential needs to be abolished, because by allowing the existence of that half-baked credential, states are complicit in deceiving the public. Another answer is that it probably needs to be a criminal offense to do homebirths without malpractice insurance. As it stands, as you well know, there is very little recourse when homebirths go wrong.

            Please don’t take offense at any unfriendly remarks. At least 95% of people here are on your side.

          • Dreah Louis

            agreed

      • HerebeDragons

        Poor BABY. The Mom chose her own path and deserved what she got.

        • PrimaryCareDoc

          I disagree. This midwife had no business taking this patient on for a home birth. The patient had mono/mono twins. That is a high risk pregnancy. Most regular OBs wouldn’t take that case! It would get referred to a high-risk MFM specialist. Frankly, it’s a miracle she made it to 40 weeks.

          This is a pregnancy that was GUARANTEED to have a bad outcome in a homebirth situation. The midwife took advantage of this woman’s clear lack of knowledge.

          It should not be the responsibility of the layperson to parse out what is good care vs bad care. She thought she was hiring a professional.

          • HerebeDragons

            If I’m reading this correctly, the mom bragged openly about there being no need for hospitals and said that one of her reasons why was that women would not be able to have a natural, unassisted, unmedicated birth at a hospital. Now that she has a dead child, she’s wailing about how wrong she was, but how many other women did she persuade to try playing with their children’s lives? No, I do not feel sorry for her.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            She also openly admitted that she was completely mistaken.

            Cut the woman some slack. She clearly made a mistake, realizes it, and it suffering beyond belief.

          • Dreah Louis

            I don’t need any one to cut me any slack. Actually didn’t even know that people were talking about my blog on here but let me add people will say what they want and do what they do. A lot of people hide behind computers just typing away bs but reality is my story is one of many

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Well, stay awhile and read the archives of this blog. We’re sadly aware of the reality that your story is one of many. There are many women on this site who have also lost their babies to home birth and negligent midwives.

          • Trixie

            Condolences on the loss of your child and good for you for publicizing what happened. Hopefully it can at least save other lives. Is there anything anyone could have said to you before your delivery that would have convinced you to ditch the midwife and go to the hospital?

          • Dreah Louis

            yes, “These twins may die if you birth at home.”

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            And that’s what you should have been told. Not even that “these twins may die if you birth at home,” but “one of your twins will almost definitely die or be gravely injured if you birth at home.”

            You were lied to and taken advantage of.

          • Karen in SC

            In South Carolina, a woman intending to give birth at a birth center with midwives are required to see an OB twice, at 20 weeks and 35 weeks. If lay midwives are aware of this – I wonder why this isn’t a protocol for them as well, even for homebirth. An OB may have told you that.

            This blog tries to be that source, explaining the dangers of homebirth.

          • Box of Salt

            Dreah Louis – since you are still reading, I would like to offer my condolences to your whole family. I am sorry for your loss.

          • Dreah Louis

            🙂

          • Dreah Louis

            that’s great IM glad you don’t. Watch what you say the world has a funny way of teaching you things

          • Meerkat

            Precisely. You said it very well. People should be able to choose their care providers, but they should also be protected from charlatans.

          • Dreah Louis

            clear lack of knowledge?

          • anion

            Dreah Louis, I am so very, very sorry for the loss of your beautiful baby. It should not have happened. You should not have been neglected and misled by your midwife; you should have been warned about the very high risk you were taking, and when your labor began–and when it became clear how precipitous your labor was–the very least that negligent, irresponsible woman should have done was told you to call 911 immediately.

            You are very brave to speak out about what happened to you, and you are truly honoring your daughter’s memory by doing so and informing other women of the risk they’re taking.

            I can’t speak for PrimaryCareDoc, but I’m certain what s/he means by “clear lack of knowledge” is that you weren’t informed of that risk, when it’s something your midwife should have made very clear from the beginning. She never should have agreed to take you as a client. The phrase “clear lack of knowledge” is in no way intended to imply you’re uneducated or ignorant or anything; it’s the knowledge that, being the good mother you obviously are, you wouldn’t have taken that risk if you’d known how dangerous it was. As you say below, if someone had outright said to you “one or both of your babies could die,” you wouldn’t have chosen to have a homebirth. It was your midwife’s duty and responsibility to say that to you, frankly. That she failed to do so means she deliberately kept you uninformed–she withheld knowledge from you that you should have had.

            Can I ask, did you have a history of precipitous labor with your other children? And if so, did you inform the midwife of it? (If you had, and she knew, that further indicates her negligence.)

            Please do discuss the racial implications on your blog. I think quite a few of us would be very interested. (And I wonder if, given your feelings about her racial insensitivity, part of her blase attitude was due to the old racist Dick-Read/”magical native” nonsense that, being a woman of color, your body was automatically stronger/more capable/whatever of giving birth naturally? The old dropping-a-baby-in-the-field-and-going-right-on-working cliche?)

            Don’t stop telling your story and fighting for justice, Dreah. And please believe that we are on your side here, absolutely and completely.

          • PrimaryCareDoc

            Yes, that was my meaning, exactly. The midwife was not truthful at all with the risks of this situation.

          • anion

            Thanks, PCD. I was sure that was what you meant. Again, I didn’t want to speak for you (and apologize for having done so), but similar comments had been made by myself and others, and I didn’t want Dreah Louis to leave the site thinking we’d all blamed her/called her ignorant, or anything like that.

        • Squillo

          She may bear responsibility for her choices, but no parent deserves to have a child die.

        • Dreah Louis

          really? That’s good to know

        • Lulu

          Very naziesque mentality you have there.

    • Trixie

      Did you read the runaround she’s getting from the Missouri midwives and also NARM?http://dreahlouis.blogspot.com/2013_12_01_archive.html

    • Dreah Louis

      she didn’t die a couple days later she died 06/17/2013

      • Jocelyn

        I’m very, very sorry for your loss.

  • Mel

    I’m hung up on Taximom5’s amazingly insulting connection between Jewish parents who lied to authorities to protect their children and US parents faking documents to avoid mild inconvenience.

    First: Jewish parents were trying to save their children from being killed. Anti-vaxxers are willing to let their children suffer or die to score some crunchy points.

    Second: Jewish families lost land, businesses. homes, the ability to freely participate in society and their lives. If you place the “inconvenience” of not being able to put your child in a day-care at 12 weeks in the same category, you are SERIOUSLY F*#$&ED UP.. Get professional help, now.

    Third: Does Taximom5 honestly think that Jewish families missed the acceleration of anti-Semitic policies during the 1930’s and 40’s? Because my husband’s Oma’s family liquidated their farm assets in the late 30’s and used the money to bribe the town record-keeper to change/destroy the records of their Jewish ancestors. Oma was just a child when the Netherlands was invaded, but she learned how to lie in words and actions to protect her siblings in the Resistance, Allied airmen and any refugees who ended up at their house. She also remembers the Jewish neighbors from when she was small who died in the concentration camps.

    Taximom5 and Geotrouvetout, count your damn blessings. Visit the Holocaust Museum, hug your children tight and count your damn blessings.

    • Young CC Prof

      Indeed, I also had ancestors who lied and forged to protect their children’s actual lives. One learned that his youngest son was likely to be drafted into the army of Catherine the Great, at the age of twelve, which was an almost certain death sentence. They had only one way to hide him: They bought forged papers that said he wasn’t a Jew. Still, they couldn’t hide him in a village for long. So, they told him they loved him very much but could never see him again, and sent him out alone. They never did see him again, although years later, they got letters from him confirming that he’d found refuge far away.

      To compare that kind of desperation to defending your “right” to be a selfish asshole unencumbered by extra paperwork…

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        I had an ancestor who fled England when his young son was in danger because he was close in line for the throne. He left his castle and most of his fortune to save his son’s life.

        • jongo gurmola

          My uncle was president of the world, but he stepped down and fled to Mars when the global illuminati needed a blood sacrifice to Moloch.

        • LovleAnjel

          My ancestors left everything behind to flee Poland when the Soviets invaded. If you were upper class, a politician or in the military your entire family disappeared. The people who stayed behind were never heard from again. NOT the same thing at all.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Well, to be fair although they didn’t miss the acceleration of antisemitic policies many of the Jews could not or would not imagine where it was going to lead because they had had a lot of experience with antisemitism in Europe that did not lead to genocide.

    • auntbea

      If you read any vaccine forum on mdc you will quickly realize taximom is mentally ill. What she said is outrageous, but I wouldn’t spend too much energy being outraged at her. Maybe the mods for allowing it.

  • attitude devant

    Heh. This won’t work forever. My fully vaxxed daughter needed her vaccine records to be admitted as a freshman to college. Her pediatrician’s office had recently switched electronic records to comply with ACA so her childhood records were in a storage center and wouldn’t be available for days. Because we were working under an extremely short timeline (that’s another story), I simply filled out the form and on every line wrote “completed” and signed my name (which is different from hers) with my big fat MD right after it at the bottom. I put it in an official envelope from the practice and handed it to her to deliver to the school nurse. This was on the Friday before classes were to start. At 9 a.m. the first day of class the nurse called my office and said, “I let your daughter start classes today because it’s clear to me you are compliant with our policy, but I really do need to see the actual records.” My reply? “Good! I’m glad to hear that!”

    • Trixie

      Because of an error at the office when our doctor switched to electronic records, my son’s printout mistakenly showed that he had not received his MMR. I didn’t notice the error, and took it along to kindergarten registration. The nurse caught it, and (rightfully) looked at me very suspiciously, and asked, “is there a *reason* why he hasn’t had his MMR?” I was horrified that she thought I was One Of Them! I got it fixed the next day, but I was impressed and glad that she caught it and they wouldn’t let me register without proof faxed directly from the doctor’s office.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        When my son was in high school they were going to send him home because the nurse forgot to write down that he had his tetanus shot. He had to sit in the office while I worked it all out.

        I had a friend tell me she thought that was overkill because tetanus is not communicable. I asked her what about playing sports; you cannot play without your physical. I saw the light come on in her eyes and she said, “Oh, they don’t want to be sued.”

    • Captain Obvious

      What happens when her child decides to study abroad? What happens if a doctor screens her antibody titers? Her lies will either get herself into trouble or risk her child.

      • Young CC Prof

        A friend of mine faked her son’s immunization form for school, not because she objected to vaccines, but just because she was disorganized and had no money or health insurance and couldn’t find the records. (She was pretty sure he’d had all of them, though.)

        All was well and good until that son was exposed to mumps at like 25 and had no idea whether he was immune or not. He was pretty stressed, although luckily he didn’t catch it.

      • Box of Salt

        Forget studying abroad or going to college. What happens when the kid gets sick with a vaccine preventable disease? Is she going to claim vaccine failure, or admit she forged the records?

  • Trixie

    About 4-5 years ago, I somehow wound up with a free subscription to Mothering, back when it was a print magazine. I had no real idea what it was or what it stood for when I signed up. Imagine my shock and outrage when the first issue showed up, and it was about a convention of mothers who just knew their autistic children were vaccine injured, despite the evidence, because mothers are always right about what their intuition tells them. I called them up and canceled my subscription right away. The lady on the phone wanted to know why, and I told her that they were going to be responsible for children dying of vaccine preventable illness and I wanted no part of anything to do with their company. She smugly told me, “well, if you believe in vaccines, then we aren’t the magazine for you.”

    • Young CC Prof

      Because vaccines are fairies, and what really matters is whether you believe in them.

      I firmly do believe in a mother’s intuition. A mother can tell when something is wrong, and can distinguish better than anyone whether the child is sick, upset, or just faking to get out of school. However, mothers do not have a magical ability to know what the illness is, what caused it, or what the best cure is.

      • Renee Martin

        I wsh I had mothers intuition. I’m always wrong.

        • KarenJJ

          This. I seem to go into pretty deep denial when my kids are sick. One of mine had fever, headache, started vomiting and then fell asleep/passed out on the lounge room floor (long after she’d dropped sleeping during the day) and I wasn’t able to wake her properly. I rang the nurses “hotline” here and dithered around waiting for my husband to come home. In retrospect with those symptoms I probably should have been calling an ambulance.

          As it was she just had a bad virus and after a night in hospital under observation she picked up a lot and was allowed home. I finally got how serious it was when the nurse at triage sent her straight into the emergency ward. No waiting room. We saw a doctor within 5 minutes of arriving at the hospital and the first thing he did was check her reflexes. I think my mother’s intuition is a bit ‘off’ sometimes.

    • Medwife

      I was raised in the woo, mothering mag was a fixture in my house. I remember my breaking point was their stand on HIV/AIDS. I was a teenager. I think I’d just taken 9th grade bio. Got caught up on all my vaccines that year and never looked back.

  • This is in the same category as people who forge academic credentials – really I am surprised it is not in violation of one or more laws and subject to criminal penalties. If you can’t counterfeit money without serious consequence, why on earth should you be allowed to get away with counterfeit far more important documents?

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Just amazing how these are such awful people. This is about the slimiest of the slime.

    You know you are pretty slimey when you get called out on sMDC for being unethical.

  • Lisa from NY

    If this catches on…

    • Renee Martin

      Well, this is nothing new. They are just getting bold enough to talk about it online.

  • Elizabeth A

    Holy zombie thread.

    One of the things that bugged me about it at the time, is how hugely unnecessary forging a record is in the state in question (MA). If you are in MA, and do not want to vax your kids, you can probably explain to the daycare that you don’t vax for whatever reason – medical, religious, philosophical – and convince the daycare that, by accommodating you, they are supporting a diverse community. You can probably totally make the DCP feel good about it.

    But lie about it, and watch how much the DCP suddenly doesn’t like you.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      As far as I am aware, very few of the major religions have any vaccination objections. Consequently, most of the “religious” objections boil down to “personal religious beliefs,” which, effectively, turns into “I don’t wanna”

      • Trixie

        This is true. There are no theologically based objections to vaccination in any of the more populous world religions or major Christian sects, with the possible exception of some Christian Scientists.

        • LynnetteHafkenIBCLC

          Whereas most religions frown on lying…

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But since they’ve already established that they don’t care what “most religions” say, that is irrelevant. Once again, the “personal religious belief” is what matters, which boils down to, “Whatever I want it to be”

          • Trixie

            And on putting innocent life at grave risk…

        • Religions that believe in faith healing exclusively have a valid argument, imo. Or maybe ones who have an objection to the use of eggs because of animal cruelty.

          • Trixie

            Even Jains, who are the most careful when it comes to not causing harm to living beings, aren’t anti-vax. And even the Catholic Church endorses the rubella vaccine despite the origin of the cell line.

          • Religions that believe in faith healing have plenty more problems.

          • Mishimoo

            Indeed! I made an offhand comment to a nurse in the maternity ward earlier this year, and then ended up talking about my teen experience with faith healing. She blanched at the description and blurted out “You do realise that you could have died because your mother delayed medical care, right?! I’m so glad that you got out!”

            (3 weeks of heavy bleeding with large clots, 1 week off, nearly 3 ‘cycles’ before she decided that my faith was too weak and took me to a doctor)

          • Nashira

            There is no such thing as a “valid argument” when it comes to believing in faith healing. Acting like belief in faith healing is okay, just contributes to people (especially children and vulnerable adults) suffering and dying unnecessarily, in horrifying ways.

        • Antigonos CNM

          Unfortunately, some ultra-Orthodox Jews also place greater reliance on their rabbi, who instructs them not to vaccinate, than on their doctors. There have been several outbreaks of measles in the past couple of years, with several fatalities, as a result.

          It isn’t a universal attitude by any means, but certain haredi groups regard anything said by their rabbi as a commandment.

          • Trixie

            Sure, there are also Taliban leaders banning polio vaccines and evangelical churches in the US discouraging measles vaccines. But they are rejecting them basically out of the same secular conspiracy theories as other vaccine rejectionists, rather than an actual scriptural reason.

          • Young CC Prof

            Polio vaccines are a US conspiracy to sterilize Muslim babies, doncha know?

          • Young CC Prof

            I REALLY don’t see how rabbis can push vaccine refusal honestly. Even if you manage to find some piece of scripture that can be interpreted to forbid it, Jewish law clearly states that, to protect life, any other law can be waived if necessary.

          • Antigonos CNM

            It is a very small group within the ultra-Orthodox community, and I don’t know why their rabbi [rebbe] ruled against it. Just because someone has rabbinical ordination does not necessarily mean they are intelligent, and some groups try very hard not to be “contaminated” by modern life in any way. It may have something to do with the method of manufacture–there was a time when insulin was derived from pigs, for example, which caused certain problems. I just know that there have been at least 3 outbreaks of measles within a particular Hassidic group, in two cases when unvaccinated youngsters from the UK visited relatives in the US, and one in Israel.

            By far the vast majority of both modern Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox have no problems with vaccination.

            Here in Israel, babies are issued with vaccination booklets when born, and need to be presented at various times in their lives, such as at registration for kindergarten and school, and prior to induction in the army. Certain inoculations are given at the free “well baby clinics”, and boosters at school. In the case of rubella, girls get a total of three shots between 1st grade and high school, just to be sure. It isn’t easy to fake the booklets, as the lot number, name of product, dosage, date, plus a doctor’s stamp [with his medical license number] has to be on it. School nurses are tasked with checking the vaccination status of children. I suppose it is possible to claim exemption — and there are fewer checks in the largely unregulated private schools run by some of the more extreme ultra-Orthodox, but in the main, Israelis take the matter of inoculation very seriously. A young person can be refused service in the IDF if he or she really would not accept vaccination in any form, and not doing army service has consequences in later life, such as employment, preference for higher education, etc.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            OK, fine. Your rabbi teaches against vaccines. You get a note from that Rabbi (legitimate note, of course, not forged), and fine, have that religious exemption.

            That’s a real religious exemption. However, most of those claimed are not, and are just used as an excuse for personal refusal.

        • Jennifer Clark

          I myself am Lutheran, and I went to a Lutheran school K-8. There was a member of my old church (that operated the school) that was a nurse who worked for the county. She was able to pull a few strings, and vaccinated some of the older kids against Hep B.

  • Stacy Mintzer Herlihy

    It’s Mothering. It’s a forum for people with no integrity or brains. It’s exactly the sort of thing you’d expect to find there.

  • AlexisRT

    I remember this thread when it was first posted, before Cynthia sanitized it. It was worse, if you can believe that, but what you should know is that Taxi was called on it–the mods deleted it, but left Taxi’s post up (a later one was poofed).

    The thread is 18 months old.

  • Monica

    Her state allows an exemption, but she still says hey I’m going to tell everyone I vaccinate because it’s just easier that way? Not seeing how that’s easier because every year you have to get a doctor to sign off on your lie. Not sure how the exemption works in MA, but here in CT all parents have to do is fill out a form saying they are religiously exempt. There’s no one that has to sign it for approval. I have more difficulty proving to my kids schools that I am in fact up to date on my kids vaccines than someone has of saying that they won’t do it for religious or moral reasons. Maybe I should lie and claim religious exemption the next time the school hounds me and says your child is not up to date on his vaccines when he is in fact and they are just reading the form wrong. Because the multiple times I have had to call our doctor this year because ooops they seem to think there’s yet another vaccine my child did not get at his school have been driving me insane. I believe I sent in the same vaccine record from the doctor 3 times this year finally telling them to please call his doctor if they have anymore problems. All of my children are up to date on their vaccines and my doctor is very careful about making sure of this for school.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      S/he’s planning to forge the document to make it look like the doctor signed it.

      • Monica

        Well still that seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through. You still have to sign it every year. Just sign the stupid exemption paper every year. All by yourself. It’s not that hard. Much easier to sign your own name. Heck, have your signature made into a stamp if you want.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          I’m not sure you can get an exemption for daycare. If a home provider does not want to take children that are unvaccinated, she may have that right. The OP wants to put his/her child in the daycare of choice without meeting the rules for that particular daycare.

          • SK

            This is horrifying as a parent (of a fully vaccinated child). My son was a micro preemie and was very small when he went to day care at 6 months (around 7-8 lbs) and was only partially vaccinated bc he didn’t qualify for all newborn vaccines. I would never ever knowingly put him in an environment at that age where he would be exposed to unvaccinated children. This woman is reckless and hateful beyond words.

          • amazonmom

            I was pleased when my daughter’s day care provider asked me if she should take unvaccinated kids. I told her I would prefer she not do it unless the child had a medical exemption. She now refuses all unvaxers. Nobody with a medical exemption has tried to sign up. This is in a suburb of Seattle.

          • Young CC Prof

            Honestly, true medical exemptions are pretty rare, and a lot of those kids have problems bad enough that their parents probably don’t want them in group daycare anyway. (Though there are generally healthy kids who just happen to have an allergy to one particular ingredient or something.)

          • amazonmom

            I’m just happy she asked, I would probably leave the day care if she started taking in non vaxers. I wouldn’t want her to turn away the rare child with a true medical exemption, I know how hard it is to find day care that isn’t priced at the Microsoft Executive level :p

          • KarenJJ

            Some medications are contra-indicated for live vaccines. Most doctors won’t give the MMR if you are on a biologics medication like my daughter. Ours did, but talking to other parents in the same position we are very much the exception. The other parents would like me to ask her doctors to publish this as a case study so that they can show their doctors and maybe get the MMR for their kid.

            Actually that’s one of the main differences I find, between not vaccinating for medical issues and not vaccinating for ideological reasons. Those of us with medical issues WANT to get the vaccines and are working with doctors to try and get them if we can, including taking the potential increased risk.

          • Jennifer2

            My brother had a medical exemption from one of the combo vaccines (can’t remember if it was MMR or DTP. He has epilepsy and there was concern of one of the vaccines triggering seizures (this was in the early 80s). As far as I know, he still has never had that particular vax. So it’s not just children that are affected. Adults, especially adults with disabilities, are more likely to be unvaccinated in whole or part for medical reasons and probably less likely to be able to protect themselves in other ways.

          • Young CC Prof

            That would have been DTP. That seizure risk is actually why they phased it out in favor of TDaP, by the way. (Although the public panic was big, evidence of risk was small, and with the recent pertussis epidemic, maybe they made the wrong choice.)

            And yes, the people with genuine medical exemptions tend to be far more in need of herd immunity than the ordinary refusers.

          • SkepticalGuest

            This is mostly a good idea, except that I don’t understand why she’d refuse children with a valid medical exemption for skipping certain vaccines. I know it’s rare, but children really do have serious medical issues that prevent some vaccinations, and it would nice if those children could attend a pro-vax, no BS exemptions environment.

          • amazonmom

            Sorry my words were bad. She would take those kids but nobody in that category applied. My postpartum brain fog wins again:p

          • Squillo

            I’d be interested to know what the law says about it. Is it like employment, where they can refuse to hire you for any reason other than those prohibited by law?

          • An Actual Attorney

            Private daycare would be a public accommodation. So, basically like employment. Depends a lot on local laws.

          • Squillo

            Thanks, I figured it might be highly local. I’m interested partly because of a case here where an academically gifted teen was denied admission to a private school after his parents disclosed that he had an ASD diagnosis but needed no special services.

          • An Actual Attorney

            Well, that sounds like an ADA / Section 504 violation. Of course, you get what you pay for with internet pontification.

        • But monica fraud is a long-term solution!

    • Deborah

      I’ve actually done this. My kids are from China and were fully vaccinated there, but we decided to redo them when they got to the US. So it was years catching up. To simplify things, I just signed the exemption form every year until they were all caught up. It was too complicated to give them the forms in Chinese, or to use titers to show them which shots weren’t necessary.

      • Renee Martin

        I can see doing this. Thankfully, they are all electronic here. Not so much of a hassle.

  • reminds me of this lady:

    http://tdn.com/news/local/longview-woman-pleads-guilty-to-forging-records-of-dog-that/article_6b41f56c-1c09-11e3-9e3e-0019bb2963f4.html

    Her dog bit a boy, and instead of admitting that her dog wasn’t vaccinated (putting her on the hook for expensive rabies shots) she forged the records. I wish they could permanently stamp people who tried to get fake vaccination records (OF ANY SORT) to warn the rest of us.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I can’t believe she got off with such a small fine. IMHO, the owner of a dog that isn’t vaccinated and runs loose should be charged with attempted murder. She is a danger to the community and should be put in prison to protect the community.

      • I don’t want to get too off topic, but there is basically no accountability for people with dangerous dogs. You know how you get arrested if you leave the scene of a car accident? There is no penalty for fleeing the scene of a dog mauling, so owners do it constantly. google ‘dine n dash pit bulls’ if you want a ton of examples. Remember this next time theres a dangerous dog law up for a vote in your community.

      • Spamamander

        My community is at least a bit better than some- recently my son was attacked by the neighbor’s dogs, two large pit puppies and a Doberman. Thankfully he was able to break free after being knocked down and escaped with just some minor bite wounds. Since rabies hasn’t been reported in this area in many years they didn’t require my son to have prophylaxis shots but they did immediately confiscate and quarantine the dogs. The owners were given the option to surrender the dogs to be euthanized after the 10 day quarantine, or get them back under major supervision and be charged with a gross misdemeanor for each dog with up to a $5000 fine and a year in jail for each count. They opted to surrender the dogs. The only truly frustrating thing for me and the animal control officer was that he could not confiscate the pit bull bitch who was restrained… she recently had another litter.

        • moto_librarian

          One of our dogs bit our son last spring. I think she was asleep, and when he walked by her, she startled and put him in a dominance hold. We took our son to the ER because he had a fairly deep puncture wound, and even though she was our family dog and up-to-date on vaccines, she still had to go to animal control for a ten-day quarantine. We were fortunate to find her a new home with no children where she is thriving, but if we hadn’t, we would have had to put her down. It broke my heart because she had never been anything but gentle with our children, but we simply couldn’t take the risk.

          • anion

            We had to give up our beloved dog after he snapped at our toddler several times (and I was pregnant with our second). We felt exactly the same way: heartbroken but we just couldn’t have that possibility, and our house and yard were too small to keep them separated all the time even if we didn’t feel it would be cruel to keep him locked up or chained up all day every day.

            So I totally know where you’re coming from.

    • Young CC Prof

      Another article said she did go to jail, at least.

      http://tdn.com/news/local/longview-woman-gets-days-for-actions-following-dog-attack/article_52747f5e-2a33-11e3-acef-001a4bcf887a.html

      And then stayed in jail, for continuing to hide the dog. Sounds like she might still be in jail, actually.

      http://tdn.com/news/local/judge-orders-longview-woman-held-until-her-pit-bull-is/article_2e5a5c06-4c84-11e3-a65d-001a4bcf887a.html

      Yeah, the only good part about this story is that no one seems to have any sympathy for her.