Lie to your pediatrician and other words of wisdom from Sarah Pope, The Healthy Home Economist

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What is it with natural parenting advocates and lying?

Homebirth advocates recommend lying to your obstetrician about planning a homebirth.

Homebirth midwives advocate lying to their patients about what medications and procedures they administer during labor.

A lactation consultant advises lying to new mothers about her vaccination status.

Now Sarah Pope, the Health Home Economist recommends lying to your pediatrician about feeding your children raw milk.

Sarah, whose nutrition credentials include a BA in economics and a Master’s in government administration (from an Ivy League institution!) has this to say:

You see, it is very risky to ever tell your Pediatrician, or any doctor caring for your child for that matter, that you feed your child raw milk. Whether that child is a baby, toddler, or adolescent, the American Academy of Pediatrics is becoming more and more hostile toward raw milk by the day and you risk having the Pediatrician tattle to Social Services if you choose to feed your baby or child this wonderfully healthy, traditional food that has nourished humans for millenia [sic]…

Can you believe it? Your conventional Pediatrician would rather you feed your baby GMO frankenformula never proven safe for human consumption instead of a homemade, nourishing formula made with raw milk from pastured cows or goats.

According to Sarah:

Pediatricians should be given information about what you do in your home on a need to know basis only.

And apparently they don’t need to know when you are putting your children’s life in danger by feeding them disease laden natural products.

Here’s what those evil folks at the American Academy of Pediatrics had to say about raw milk:

… [C]onsumption of raw milk or milk products has been associated with a fivefold increase in toxoplasmosis among pregnant women; listeriosis associated with high rates of stillbirths, preterm delivery, and neonatal infections, such as sepsis and meningitis6; and E coli O157–associated diarrheal disease and hemolytic-uremic syndrome, primarily among young children. Between 17% and 33% of all cases of invasive disease attributable to Listeria monocytogenes in the United States occur among pregnant women, unborn fetuses, or newborn infants, a 13- to 17-fold increase compared with the general population. Complications include a 20% risk of spontaneous abortion or stillbirth, with two-thirds of infants developing neonatal infection, including pneumonia, sepsis, or meningitis.

Silly pediatricians. Toxoplasmosis, listeria and E. coli O157 are natural. Pneumonia, meningitis and sepsis are natural. What could be harmful about anything natural?

Who would know better than Sarah, a Nutrition Educator and Chapter Leader for the Weston A. Price Foundation, a foundation devoted to the teachings of a dentist from the 1800′s?

Sarah offers this helpful disclaimer:

The information on The Healthy Home Economist ™ is provided for informational purposes only. It is not intended to substitute for the advice provided by your doctor or other health care professional. You should not rely upon or follow the programs or techniques or use any of the products and services made available by or through the use of this website for decision making without obtaining the advice of a physician or other health care professional. The nutritional and other information on this website are not intended to be and do not constitute health care or medical advice.

So be sure to ask your pediatrician whether you should lie to him or her before you do.

And who would think that offering recipes for baby “formula” made with raw milk constitutes medical advice?

What could happen if you don’t lie to your pediatrician about feeding your child raw milk (beside the fact that your child could get violently ill, spend days in hideous pain with severe vomiting and diarrhea, and die)?

Consider the recent nightmare of Alorah Gellerson of Brooklin, Maine who made the mistake of telling a doctor about the homemade raw goat milk formula she proudly and carefully made for her healthy, happy, three-month old son Carson.

Social Services quickly same knocking at the door after the doctor reported Alorah and threatened to take Carson away and put him in foster care unless Alorah switched to store bought commercial formula.

Imagine that! Social Services wanted to take Carson away for no better reason that to spare him a painful illness, hospitalization and even death. The nerve of those people.

Why might pediatricians and Social Service personnel be conspiring to prevent you from feeding your children disease laden milk? Sarah doesn’t say.

Why might Sarah Pope, the Healthy Home Economist, be promoting raw milk, which could kill your child?

Sarah does say:

In order for me to support my blogging activities, I may receive monetary compensation or other types of remuneration for my endorsement, recommendation, testimonial and/or link to any products or services from this blog.

Surprise! Sarah links to the products needed to make raw milk “formula.” So she ends up with money if you feed your baby raw milk “formula.” You merely end up with a violently ill or dead child.

  • katie

    Thank you for this. Just read Sarah Pope’s blog… barf! She’s an idiot, a loud irresponsible idiot.

    Someone should sue her for all the deaths she’s caused spreading her malicious misinformation.

    • Carrie Looney

      I had no idea she was a Thing until I saw that TDS episode about her anti-vaccine stance. Now it seems I’m seeing her on The Internets at least as much as The Food Babe. Sigh.

  • AshleyBurt

    Sarah Pope is spitting in the face of hundreds of years of research into public health and safety. What baffles me is that her pawns that subscribe to her blog are angry at the government for controlling them. Um hello, you are following an economics gov administration major. How blind can people get these days? It’s like they believe something because it’s printed in a bright color with an attractive font and clip art. I’m frikkin done. She’s a piece of work.

  • perpetual lurker

    FWIW, I asked an infectious disease doc who taught our med school lecture on gram negative bacteria about this issue. He actually said it seems plausible to him that there might be health benefits from some of the heat-sensitive ingredients in raw milk, e.g. lactoferrins etc. HOWEVER, he said those benefits are not proven, and they may be slight, whereas the risks of bacterial contamination of raw milk are proven and established, and particularly in children, the chances of complications like meningitis and HUS possibly necessitating dialysis are higher, so the stakes are higher. In his mind, in the risk-benefit analysis, it’s clearly not a risk worth taking for an unproven benefit, particularly for pregnant women and children. He hopes that maybe we’ll find higher pressure, lower temp ways to kill bacteria in milk while preserving some of the other components, and we can get a better idea of whether there truly is a relevant and replicable benefit.

    This to me seems entirely reasonable – and from a doc *gasp*! The Healthy Home Economist has always irked me because she is so incredibly smug and convinced that her utter lack of training and self-taught “knowledge” are somehow not only equivalent to proper training in the relevant subjects, but somehow trump it. There is a humility that I’ve developed given the breadth of knowledge I’m exposed to in medicine that self-proclaimed “expert” personalities just don’t seem to possess. Classic Dunning-Kreuger, I suppose. This is an increasingly common problem, especially in the internet world – the edification of the schmo on the street who googles a lot and sounds confident.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      The information you have from the doctor is exactly what is espoused by pretty much all of the community. Proven risks, minimal benefits, if at all. What’s the issue?

      • perpetual lurker

        Um, issue? No issue. I thought it was interesting that an ID doc thought that raw milk probably does have some benefits, though clearly as an ID expert, he also saw the risks clearly. He hoped for a middle ground, in finding alternate pasteurization methods. To me, his response seemed quite measured, and not the “oh docs just want money and don’t know anything about nutrition” gambit I was seeing parachute in here.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          I thought it was interesting that an ID doc thought that raw milk probably does have some benefits,

          That’s not what you said. He also said they are a) not proven, and b) they might be slight.

          Saying that there “might be benefits, but they are unproven and possibly small” is not profound in the least. It’s pretty much the mainstream view. And any potential benefits do not compare to the risks.

          And “trying to find an alternative to pasteurization” is not a middle ground, it is absolutely mainstream. People are doing that all the time. High pressure or UV methods are always being investigated.

          • perpetual lurker

            I said he found it plausible that the heat-sensitive ingredients in raw milk have benefits. In other words, he didn’t just shoot down the idea as baloney. Also, while maybe alternative methods are being investigated, I don’t think it had been mentioned here, and I thought it might be interesting to note that he suggested them specifically as a way to preserve healthful ingredients.

            I’m kind of confused as to why you are shooting me down right now when I agree with you.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I’m not “shooting you down” just trying to understand why you think his perspective is “interesting”, considering that it is basically the mainstream view of raw milk.

            In other words, he didn’t just shoot down the idea as baloney.

            But who does? This is why I am puzzled. The question is not and has never been whether there MIGHT be some small benefits (although none have actually been shown), it is the question of risk vs those benefits. And in the world of no proven benefits (which is conceded), then the idea of raw milk IS baloney, until actual benefits are shown.

          • perpetual lurker

            Hmm. Well, maybe I found it interesting more in the context in which I spoke to him? He’d just given a long lecture about gram negatives and all these nasty complications like kidney failure, and I’d just happened to be debating with some raw milk advocates online about the evidence, and I guess I kind of expected him to be like “Are you crazy?? E coliiiiii” but instead he was more like, “Yes, I think raw milk probably does have healthy things in it that pasteurized doesn’t that might very well benefit our health” with the qualifying “but…” afterwards.

            I also thought it was relevant because this post is about lying to your doctor (or nondisclosure, for the semantically picky), with an assumption that all doctors will have the negative reaction of “Are you crazy? That’s child abuse!” when actually, docs like this one are really quite level-headed about it even though they might still come down against it. I mean, I know YOU probably know that and think duh, Bofa, but do the parachuters know that?

          • Young CC Prof

            For an adult who’s considering the question academically, sure, there’s room for a nuanced discussion. For someone who actually is or is considering feeding raw milk to a toddler, the answer is, it’s way too dangerous.

          • perpetual lurker

            I see what you mean, but I’m not sure I agree, at least not in all cases. I mean, I think it’s a bit on par with the vaccination discussions, which I’ve seen modeled different ways by different docs. (Though I guess the message from the most recent studies on that is you can’t win no matter what you say.) There’s something to the idea that giving an inch of nuance to a person who will take a mile is counterproductive, and I get that. But I also think some people respond very well to a nuanced discussion, rather than just being told “uh-uh, no way, that’s crazy.” And I came across a lot of these healthy home economist type parents where I used to live, and I definitely got the sense they were looking for respectful discussions with their physicians about these topics. Haha, then again, some of them did give their kids raw milk, so I guess maybe nuance wasn’t the way to go!

    • Trixie

      They pasteurize human breast milk at milk banks, and it’s still beneficial. I’m more skeptical or raw milk health benefit claims because all the enzymes and stuff are for cows, anyway.

  • Chivers

    Dr. Tuteur, I have often wondered why the authorities are so afraid of raw milk, so it was interesting to read your article. Could it not be, though, that the sources of these particular samples were not good? After all, every factory is different and a number of innocuous foods have been found to be contaminated in one factory and not in another. Listeria and E. Coli tend to be found in animals that are badly kept, is this not so?
    Furthermore, I do wonder about other causes to these stillbirths and spontaneous abortions. What of vaccinations, medications and general toxins found in the environment? Deaths by vaccines tend to be conveniently ignored or attributed to neglect on the parents’ side. I find this rather a hypocritical stance on the part of scientists.
    Could you perhaps enlighten me a little further?

    • Lily

      Great questions! Please doctor answer them , i also need to know from a valid and knowledgeable source.

      • Elizabeth A

        If you have already decided the doctor is not a valid or knowledgeable source, why should she take the time to answer you? You’ve already written her off.

        OUt of curiousity, what would be a valid and knowledgeable source? You don’t seem to care for the American Academy of Pediatrics.

        • Lily

          are you even reading before answering? i don’t think so

          • kaitlynng95

            No need to be rude, Lily dear.

        • kaitlynng95

          Lilly meant she wants the answers from the doctor not from another commentor on this site.

    • Young CC Prof

      Bad factories are one thing. But milk doesn’t come from a factory, it comes from cows. And cows can harbor dangerous bacteria, even small farms that treat their cows well. The dangerous strain of E. Coli probably first appeared on a factory farm, but it’s now spread to cows all over the world.

      Why do you think pasteurization caught on so well in the first place? It’s because thousands of children died from contaminated milk every year, just like people used to die from bad water. In some parts of the world, they still do. In India, for example, many rural people buy their milk unprocessed, but everyone takes it home and boils it before using.

      Don’t believe me? Read some history. Talk to someone from the poorer parts of the world. And use some basic common sense. Would you eat a raw hamburger, or raw chicken breast? Of course not. You know these can cause food poisoning.

      How do we know Listeria causes miscarriages? Because the vast majority of Listeria cases end with a dead or very sick fetus, and such problems are very rare in the general population. In particular, first trimester miscarriages happen often, and the cause is usually unknown, but losses after 13 weeks are far less common, and a cause can usually be found.

      • Lily

        so today we also have many deaths of children and dead fetuses? How many are we talking about? Does this happen to developed countries? Are they silencing those deaths? I am not talking about poor countries with poor hygiene ofcourse you know that right? Btw i think in a lot of countries they eat the meat uncooked, like a raw minced meat dish or rare! Are there also some deaths? where do you get your info from? i would like to see also. Sorry for so many questions but this issues give me some anxiety :P

        • Young CC Prof

          No, we don’t have widespread deaths of children from bad water and bad milk. Because our water comes out of the tap already purified, and almost no one drinks raw milk. That’s the whole point.

          • Lily

            so if no one drinks raw milk what is the problem then? why is there even articles about raw milk? in europe they drink it as i read somewhere here? is this a lie? are there deaths there from the few drinkers? few deaths?

          • Durango

            This thread is full of people who apparently drink raw milk. There aren’t many, I’d guess, but the people who do drink raw milk are extremely vocal about it, and they tout all sorts of nonsense in support of it.

          • Lily

            are they writing in the thread and being dead at the same time?(jk :P ) or we need more people to drink raw milk to have some/few deaths?how does it work?and if there is such a small number drinking raw milk why does so many bother, why does the doctor bother? where is the threat?and if they are being so loud why is she afraid of the lies they tell?

          • Durango

            You are being disingenuous, but I’ll play. This post is trying to counteract the raw milk propaganda put out by the ignorant HHE. It’s not “being afraid” (why do all you people think that if someone disagrees with you they are afraid of you?)–it’s trying to prevent people from giving a dangerous substance to their kids, all the while thinking it’s super healthy magical.

          • Lily

            what can be disingenuous about questions? if you feel deceived than step aside please, i initially wanted answers from the doctor anyway!and remember if your answer does not come along with the source that you used to prove your point, i don’t think is valid no no! the doctor tought us that and you are not a good student! aaaahhhhh

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Lily – do you believe drunk driving is dangerous?

            According to the US DOT estimates, there are 27 000 miles driven drunk for every DUI. And there are twice as many DUIs as there are drunk driving car accidents. That means that for every drunk driving car accident, there are more than 50 000 miles of drunk driving that occurs without incident.

            How can there be so much drunk driving that occurs without incident if drunk driving is dangerous?

          • Lily

            i believe in the use of condom :) but i don’t stand near the people i don’t want them to reproduce so as to stop it in the first place :) do you?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Um, YOU are posting HERE. I don’t know from where you came, but you came to this website.

            So I really don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

            Moreover, I don’t have a clue what that has to do with my question about how drunk driving can be dangerous if there are lots of people who have driven drunk without incident.

          • Lily

            it has all to do with raw milk no? how did i think of that?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So you won’t answer the question:
            Is drunk driving dangerous? If yes, how do you reconcile that with your assertion that people drink raw milk and don’t die?

            Oh wait, you don’t care if people die.

            Forget it. You aren’t worth the time.

          • Lily

            did you answer my question?
            thank you for your time :) it was a delight

          • kaitlynng95

            I do believe he asked you a question first.

            (I’m just over here watching your conversation from a distance)

          • Lily

            he replied to my questions with his own question! i think, maybe i am mistaken ,i am also watching from a distance now while waiting for the doctor to answer :P also i am really impressed by how some people find that i have a bad behavior,what about the doctors responses… they are somewhat harsh! are they not admirers of that? i just like taking example of people with degrees,they have quality ;) (sorry for the irrelevant comment on you)

          • Kaitlynn G.steen

            I’ll have to agree with you on this I’ve read a few of her articles now and I don’t like the tone she uses over all.

          • kaitlynng95

            * I believe in the use of a condom, but I don’t stand near the people I don’t want reproducing in order to stop them from doing so. Do you? *
            I fixed your english. You’re welcome.
            So… Sorry this is going to take me a moment to get over how stupid this comparison was.
            You compared possible reproduction to DEATH of a person.
            If you see someone drinking raw milk you say, “Hey, I don’t know if you’re aware, but raw milk has a lot of diseases linked to it, and it’s not recommended that you drink it.” In this case you are concerned of this persons well being.
            But you don’t go up to a particularly stupid person you know and say, “I think your an idiot and I don’t want you ever having kids.” How does them having kids effect you, hurt or lead to the death of someone else? It DOESN’T. That would be you just being a high headed ass hole, thinking you should say who can reproduce and who can’t.

          • Young CC Prof

            “if they are being so loud why is she afraid of the lies they tell?”

            When folks are running around basically telling people to endanger their children for no reason at all, everyone should be afraid of that kind of lie.

            Raw milk kills. Even in the USA, people who foolishly drink it get seriously ill every year. ‘Nuff said.

          • Lily

            and why would they do it if someone said so? isn’t this the thing with stupid people? they will do whatever they are been told? aren’t you afraid of them besides the raw milk?are they getting sick and lying about it at the same time? can you save them from their own stupidity? is it true that you are the savior? and where are your proof about
            “Raw milk kills. Even in the USA, people who foolishly drink it get seriously ill every year. ‘Nuff said.”is it really enough said? also why do they choose to listen to folks and not folks that are doctors? what is wrong with them? also once more can you save them? if not someone has to!

          • Young CC Prof

            I do not understand this comment at all. I don’t even know whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

          • kaitlynng95

            I had considered drinking raw milk once before and I can assure you I am not stupid. I read more than one blog article about the benefits of raw milk and it did make it sound quite “magical”
            But I never got around to going out and buying it.

            Now some people will be a little dense and won’t research every aspect, which you really should do when considering using an alternative to something that effects your health.
            Maybe this makes them stupid, but it almost sounds like you think they should die for their stupidity.

            “Can you save them from their own stupidity?” Yes. If you take the time to spread awareness and educate.

          • Lily

            i assure you also that i am a magician! you know what i mean by that! i don’t think anybody should die, i think that they could die because of their stupidity and yes that is what education does! how would you like to be educated by having your child taken away from you? do think that people raise children in a bad way but they don’t give them raw milk so they are healthy enough to handle it? what do you think about raw milk being sold in europe? do doctors exist in europe? is it a myth?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            if they are being so loud why is she afraid of the lies they tell

            Huh?

            How can you even ask such a stupid question?

            It is BECAUSE they are loud that we need to confront their lies. Because if we don’t, there will be people who will think they are right.

            Quiet ones don’t get heard.

            I say it again, you clearly aren’t even thinking about what you are posting.

          • anion

            Oh, she’s thinking. She’s thinking she’s the smartest little snowflake in the place, and that she’s showing us all up with her Very Innocent Questions designed to make everyone else look stupid.

            The problem is that you have to actually be smart for that to work. Just thinking you’re smart doesn’t cut it; it’s just another Dunning-Kruger example for us all to shake our heads over.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            so if no one drinks raw milk what is the problem then?

            Because there are people participating in this discussion who are advocating that we should all be drinking raw milk. If they had their way, and we all started drinking raw milk, then there would be a lot more (senseless) deaths.

            Seriously, do you even think before posting these comments?

          • Lily

            why don’t you let natural selection do it’s thing? are you god by any chance? have you ever thought that if people never die we would be more overpopulated than we already are?

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            why don’t you let natural selection do it’s thing?

            Because humans have the ability to overcome it.

            Are you seriously advocating for letting weaker members of society die? That is abhorrent. You are a terrible, terrible person.

          • Lily

            i am sorry to disappoint you sofa :( i did not mean it…btw i think nature has been doing that without your permission i think! i hope not

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            i think nature has been doing that without your permission i think!

            It tries, but folks like me (and Dr Amy) try to fight it. Not because we think we are “god” but because we don’t want other members of society to die.

            You, OTOH, apparently don’t care.

            Quick question: I don’t think I am god, but suppose you were. Would you be happy killing off weak members of society? These are someone’s son or daughter or mother or sister or brother or uncle. You would be ok with just letting them die, even though you could prevent it?

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Do you know what “letting natural selection do its thing” really means? It means letting people die even though they could be saved because you think that they’re “inferior” due to some illness. Is that really what you want? When you get sick will you simply go off quietly and die, preferably somewhere that the scavengers can eat your body, because nature is just doing “its thing” or will you demand medical care?

          • Lily

            where did i say illness? if a stupid person wants to drink gasoline and dies isn’t this natural selection? tell me please! are you going to be by their side? do you want to take all the children of stupid mothers under your protection or just the ones that are being fed raw milk! and if someone is very week and cannot be saved even with medicine do you blame yourself for his/hers low immune system? what do you think? i am just wondering aren’t you? you must be smarter than me! please help me

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Natural selection doesn’t care whether it’s your fault or not. If you say “just let them die–it’s natural selection” about people who drink gasoline then you also have to say it about people who get meningitis because they sat next to the wrong person on the bus.

            and if someone is very we[a]k and cannot be saved even with medicine do you blame yourself for his/hers low immune system?

            Depends. Was it my fault? Did I give them chemotherapy and not give them neupogen, for example? Or fail to find their HIV or cyclic neutropenia? Can I see any patterns in their progression from health to death that might allow me to interrupt the cycle for the next patient?

          • LibrarianSarah

            First, not everyone has 20/20 vision and using capital letters at the being of sentences will make your comment a lot easier for others to read. Second, as a person with bother physical and neurological disabilities, I am glad we no longer “let natural selection do it’s thing.” This is especially true considering the people most vulnerable to e-coli poisoning are young children.

          • Trixie

            If people don’t think their children have good odds of surviving, they’ll have more, not fewer.

          • Trixie

            No you sheeple tap water has teh flooridz

        • Elizabeth A

          The first trimester miscarriage rate in the U.S. was (last time I checked) estimated at around 1 in 5. Some estimates put it as high as 1 in 3. No one is silencing that.

          Yes, many people occasionally eat raw meat, and many more like their meat very rare. Eating raw meat is not without risk – it kills a few people in the U.S. every year, and pregnant women are strongly advised to only eat meat cooked.

          • Lily

            where do you know all these things? i want the sources also please :) links or something, like books?

          • Elizabeth A

            Miscarriage rates:http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

            Raw meat – there’s a warning at the bottom of every restaurant menu, and my OB was pretty firm about it when I was pregnant. The CDC has very comprehensive information about food-borne illness – http://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/. They also have a specific page concerning raw milk – http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-index.html. They note that “Before the invention and acceptance of pasteurization, raw milk was a
            common source of the bacteria that cause tuberculosis, diphtheria,
            severe streptococcal infections, typhoid fever, and other foodborne
            illnesses. These illnesses killed many people each year, especially
            young children. “

          • Lily

            thank you :) you are very nice

          • Elizabeth A

            Twenty minutes before this, you were shooting reflexive “you’re not bothering to read” at me.

            I give careful and thoughtful answers because that’s what I do. I would hate for anyone to think it was some sort of attempt to get into your good graces.

            I’m not nice. I think your behavior here has been provacative and unpleasant. Please go away.

          • LibrarianSarah

            If someone can’t even locate the shift key on a keyboard they have no business commenting on the reading skills of others. Personally, I think there’s a troll under this here bridge and it’s best to leave it alone until the next billy goat comes along.

          • Lily

            eye-opening! i wish i had your skills on understanding things…and btw this is in no way helpful regarding the issue with raw milk and my questions about it! which are very much related!

          • Lily

            your answer on my initial question was reflexive ,so i think my answer was very accurate…also this is not your home and i am asking questions related to the matter of raw milk! i wanted the doctor to answer,it does not matter if you like me or not! and why are you not nice? can you be nice?

          • Elizabeth A

            This is, indeed, not my home. Nor is it yours.

            You have behaved like a crude stranger here, wandering into an internet equivalent of a local pub, spitting on the bartender, your host, and than wondering why you’re snubbed by the regulars.

            I gave you thoughtful answers – including the question you still haven’t answered – because it strikes me as a decent, human bottom line, but if you offered me a drink, I would decline it.

          • Lily

            why don’t you read my first question where i ask the doctor to answer my questions, what makes you think i wanted your answers in the first place? not that i denied them i also read your links, but you are making me answer like that! also i did not see such comment of yours in the answers where the doctor is trashing some respectful people that commented….do you think they deserved it because they have no degree? do you think it was education provided in them?do you have a selective response attitude? i really liked your description of the bar and pub though :) cute!

          • AmyP

            Yeah, lots of things that are OK for healthy adults are much more dangerous for pregnant women and unborn babies–flu, for example, or chicken pox.

          • Durango

            Flu and chicken pox are ok for healthy non-pregnant adults? No. You are wrong, and you are ignorant.

          • Young CC Prof

            “OK” is the wrong word, but yes, healthy school-aged children and adults USUALLY come through chicken pox and flu without hospitalization long-term problems. With pregnant women, that is not the case.

          • AmyP

            They’re unpleasant, but not particularly dangerous for healthy, young to middle-aged adults. The stakes always seem to be much higher for pregnant women and unborn babies.

            My husband just went through chickenpox as a middle-aged adult–unpleasant and a waste of a week or two, but not life-threatening.

            Oh, by the way–chicken pox vaccine–make sure your kids get it!

          • Trixie

            Most deaths from chicken pox did occur in adults. And H1N1 disproportionately kills young, healthy adults.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I thought chicken pox was one of the few diseases that is less dangerous for children than it is for adults. Wasn’t the idea behind all those “pox parties” back before the vaccine to have kids get the pox young when it’s less dangerous. Or were those parents just dicks? I got it in daycare so I’m not invested either way.

          • Young CC Prof

            All bacterial illnesses are least severe in young adults, but a lot of viral illnesses are less severe in young children. For some diseases, the “safest” age is between about three and twelve. Chicken pox is usually nastier in adults, and it’s more likely to lead to serious complications.

            So yes, before the vaccine was invented, it DID make sense to make sure your child caught it relatively young. A generation or two earlier, you wanted to make sure your daughter had rubella and your son mumps before puberty, and absolutely measles before 20. (Of course, now we have vaccines for all those things, which is a better system overall.)

            Weirdly enough, there’s still one disease out there for which the “catch it early” applies: Mononucleosis. Most kids catch the virus while still in diapers and pull through it like a cold. The rest are subject to a much worse illness in adolescence. The reason it’s almost never seen after age 30 is that basically everyone is immune by then whether they’ve had a noticeable illness from it or not.

            I like biology…

          • Mishimoo

            “Oh, by the way–chicken pox vaccine–make sure your kids get it!”

            100% agree! My mother was heavily into the woo when it came out, and refused to allow me to be vaccinated. I managed to avoid catching chicken pox as a kid, so I now need to go and get it done

          • AshleyBurt

            Me too. During my childhood either the vaccine wasn’t recommended or available. So I’ll be getting the shingles shot. Just hope I nip it before it nips me.

      • AmyP

        “In India, for example, many rural people buy their milk unprocessed, but everyone takes it home and boils it before using.”

        My husband was a kid in 1980s Poland, and he says they’d buy milk and then boil it there, too.

      • AshleyBurt

        Not only are GNRs bad business and the risks too high for young children but we live in an antibiotic fallback society. We give broad spectrum antibiotics for colds roitinely. GNRs of the 1800s are not the same as they are today. You can’t ever simply say they did it that way back then what’s the difference. Well since Pasteur started a safer way of consuming dairy products, times have changed and bugs have definitely changed.

        • Young CC Prof

          What does GNR stand for?

          Keep in mind, though, antibiotic-resistant bacteria are not more virulent or harmful than regular bacteria, they’re just harder to cure with antibiotics.

    • Elizabeth A

      Raw milk is, by its nature, not processed in factories. The relationship between the producer and the consumer, built on the fact that you generally have to go directly to the farm to process unprocessed and unpasteurized milk, is billed as one of the selling points. If, despite this (which is theoretically a precaution), pregnant women who consume raw milk are more then five times more likely to develop toxoplasmosis then women who do not do so, it seems reasonable to question the safety of raw milk.

      I agree that the modern world is awash in pollutants, and that environmental cleanup is something we should all be striving for, but I am not less awash in those pollutants then my neighbor. If one of us comes down with a disease and the other does not, it makes sense to look at the differences between us, and see if any of them are relevant.

      Toxoplasmosis is a disease that we can test for, and which we know the effects of. When someone becomes ill from toxoplasmosis miscarries, conducting a search for “vaccinations, medications, and general toxins found in the environment” is an exhausting and fruitless exercise – we won’t be able to rule those causes either out or in, because the miscarriage was probably caused by toxoplasmosis.

  • Adrienne Bohn

    Look it isn’t like they are taking it straight from the udder and giving it to them. People have been doing it for centuries, and yes some people have perished due to mishandling. Its no different from any other food. Shit just sometimes happens! We stepped away from our roots as and gave into cheap food products, because we value money over health.

    • Elizabeth A

      That makes no sense. Processing milk makes it *more* expensive, not less.

      “Shit just happens sometimes” is a horrifyingly callous approach preventable deaths.

      I’ve had my share of food poisoning, and while I know plenty of people who will keep on risking an assortment of disease vectors, I prefer not to.

      At least the people who love oysters enough to take the occasional bout of poisoning from them don’t go around claiming to be better than the rest of us.

    • Durango

      I find your phrase “shit sometimes happens” particularly apt here. That’s why we pasteurize. Fecal bacteria in milk sickens and can kill people. We pasteurize because we value health. Duh.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      People die driving sober, so why bother having drunk driving laws.

      That is exactly a consequence of your attitude.

      Do you agree with laws against drunk driving? Because shit just sometimes happens.

  • Liz

    The lady Sarah, never says to lie…so your whole basis of writing this article is invalid. You should be more careful what you accuse people of. Wasn’t expecting this kind of huge error by an ivy league graduate doctor…disappointing, to say the least

    • Box of Salt

      Context is everything.

  • Dr Kitty

    If the raw milk proponents want to talk about “natural” it is deeply unnatural for adult humans to drink milk. Never mind the milk of a different species.
    It is a practice some human cultures started a few thousand years ago (7500 years approx), but only after the deeply unnatural practice of domesticating herd animals.

    I’d have more respect for the “all organic, all natural” crowd actually ate only foodstuffs untainted by human agriculture, and accessible to our ancestors before agriculture and seafaring.

    Acorns, samphire, seaweed, sea buckthorn, wild caught game meats, freshwater fish, nettles, locusts, that sort of thing. Anything which has been farmed or cultivated has been modified by humans is no longer natural and should be avoided.

    No?

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Heck, drinking milk is one of the acts that made humans GMO. That lactase persistence gene wasn’t there in the proto-human hunter/gatherer.

      Also, if you want to be properly natural, game should be caught in the traditional way: chase it until it drops dead from exhaustion and then eat it. Fire cooking optional.

      Though, truth be known, this game was lost when the first chimp/human ancestor discovered that if she stuck a stick in a tree she could get tasty insects to crawl on it and eat them. Thus was the carrying capacity of the world for primates increased and we’ve been stuck with having to use technology to feed ourselves ever since.

      • Young CC Prof

        Eh, chasing game is too much work. I prefer carrion and raw shellfish, maybe some fruit a few weeks out of the year. Then I go dig up some tubers and eat ‘em raw… they’re kind of small and bitter, though.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Hmm…maybe if we make friends with those wolves they’ll help us with the catching game. Oh, oops.

        • anion

          Here in my area, I see roadkill pheasants on pretty much a daily basis from September to early March (they’re incredibly stupid, it seems, and they will run right out onto a busy road). It’s poaching if you run over one and pick it up yourself, but it is not poaching if you see somebody else hit it and then stop to pick it up. So I imagine a two-car team, working inconspicuously, could eat pretty well for at least half of the year just by driving to and from work and the grocery store.

          (I did once see a pheasant run right into the wheels of a semi truck and get thrown onto the shoulder in a tangled heap of feathers, but I was too chicken–and too ignorant of how to dress fowl–to stop and pick it up. Aside from sanitary concerns and the high probability that the poor thing’s innards had formed a hideous bone-fragment-spiked stew inside it, of course.)

          • Young CC Prof

            That is the trouble with roadkill, high risk of rupturing the abdominal cavity, which makes the meat unfit for human consumption in about 2.5 seconds. And yes, pheasants are literally too stupid to live. They are selectively bred to be fat, tasty, and fun to hunt. (Seriously, they are.)

          • anion

            I’d love to try hunting them, actually. There are a bunch of places within half an hour or so of me that run hunts in season, and I keep thinking one of these days I’ll give it a go. I’m a pretty good shot.

          • Dr Kitty

            We often had a braces of pheasants hanging in our shed when I was a child.
            My father’s clients and friends are the hunting, shooting, fishing type.

            My mother was always less than impressed at being give freshly shot game that needed dressed and plucked and hung as a gift.

      • MLE

        I only wish to catch a fish, so juicy sweet!

  • Laura

    Im curious to know if the studies were done on grass-fed cows, opposed to the milk they get from the pharmaceutically altered cows that are commercially raised that see NO grass or anything else natural. HUGE DIFFERENCE…you are what you eat…. chemical laden cows milk or Natural grass eating cows milk

    • Trixie

      What exactly do you mean by “pharmaceutically altered”?
      Are you aware that even grass fed cows don’t eat a diet of 100% forage? Do you know anything at all about dairy farming?

      • GoAWAY

        So you have cows? Because I do and you are wrong. Perhaps traditional dairy’s do give grains, and antibiotics regularly but many local farms do not.

        • Trixie

          What do you feed your cows on days when they can’t be in the pasture?

          • GoAWAY

            Coastal Hay, and fermented alfalfa.

          • Trixie

            Congratulations! You realize that alfalfa has been genetically modified by humans for millenia? And that by fermenting it, you’ve altered its “natural” state?

          • GoAWAY

            Not all fields of Alfalfa are GMO, but yes there is always a danger of cross contamination by bees, and wind. Yes there were better options historically for grass-fed cattle…but we do the best we can with what we have.

          • LibrarianSarah

            You do realize that selective breeding is genetic modification right? Unless you get your alpha from deep in the wild and said alpha has been untouched by man it has still been genetically modified. Hell your cows themselves are GMO’s since their existence is thanks to a millennia of selective breeding.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I don’t think they do and not to mention what about that radiation during the fifties? People act now like those are natural crops, so much more natural than GMO. I saw one that I know was made that way being talked about like Heirloom seeds.

          • Tiphany Myers

            You need to check your science, there is an enormous difference. Here is a layman explanation:

            http://www.mnn.com/food/healthy-eating/stories/genetic-engineering-vs-selective-breeding

          • LibrarianSarah

            “Mother Nature Network” real “scientific” source you have there.

            Unless you want to argue that a wolf and my brothers Australian Shepard are genetically identical, you have to admit that selective breeding is a form of genetic modification. It modifies genes slowly over a longer period of time but it modifies genes all the same.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Wrong. The science is completely different. I posted that source because I thought you would have an easier time understanding the information. Are you sure you are a librarian, the info is there but you do have to look. I can’t be doing it all for you, sorry. If you’re good with eating corn that produces it’s own poison to make it’s #1 pest’s stomach explode, then go ahead. But, if you believe you can consume a product that makes it’s own toxin and not be affected you are wrong. Go ahead and take a chance if you want, I eat and grow organic and do not buy GMO products because I have done my own homework. If you think it’s a coincidence allergies and gastrointestinal problems have risen in step with the widespread takeover of GMO’s, you’re wrong there too. I guess time will tell. I’m not going to tell you what to eat. And I’m not going to spend time looking for sources to back up my statements because I could care less if you are convinced or have changed your position. It’s cool with me if you get chron’s, IBS, colitis, or even cancer, just don’t say I didn’t warn you.

          • Young CC Prof

            “But, if you believe you can consume a product that makes it’s own toxin and not be affected you are wrong.”

            Right. So, you’re giving up most fruits and veggies, then? Lots and lots of plants produce toxins, including ones we eat every day. Here’s a little summary of a few of them.

            http://www.foodista.com/blog/2011/03/28/10-poisonous-foods#

            Please do not say that these toxins are “natural” and those in GMO plants are “unnatural.” Botulism toxin is 100% natural. So is fugu, and the Australian sea snake. Chemical relatives of cyanide are found in a variety of plants. Whether something is natural has nothing to do with whether it is safe.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Then go ahead and eat it if you have no concerns.

          • Young CC Prof

            “Full Reserach Article with COMPLETE SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENTATION at:” a website promoting “Non-invasive, natural healing from solar and lunar influences.”

            Let me explain something to you. The Internet is way way too big for any single person to read it all, right? So we need shortcuts to decide what to read, and what’s a complete waste of time. Just based on a quick glance at the website that video linked to, the video is a complete waste of time. I don’t care what the author says, because he’s obviously crazy.

            I’m not arguing with you about GMO foods any more. If you want to avoid them, it probably won’t do you any harm, other than making it harder to shop.

            I’m trying to teach you something much more important: Critical reading.

          • anion

            When I was nine I ate a baked potato with some green on the skin (I didn’t know that wasn’t a good idea). I will never forget how horrible I felt, or how I finally just went to sleep and woke up an hour later in the actual process of throwing up all over my bed.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            If you think it’s a coincidence allergies and gastrointestinal problems have risen in step with the widespread takeover of GMO’s…

            Except that they haven’t. According to up-to-date, allergic rhinitis increased in “Westernized” (their wording, not mine) countries from about the 1870s-the 1950s. True, asthma (officially) increased later, but the increase in asthma was well established by the 1960s. GMO in the sense of direct manipulation of DNA wasn’t even a thing in the 1870s-1950s. As in, we didn’t even know what DNA was during most of that time.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Allergic rhinitis is a runny nose, usually due to seasonal allergies. That’s not what we are talking about.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            You may not be, but quite a number of people here have discussed allergic rhinitis and, particularly, asthma in terms of issues relating to GMO, raw milk, and environmental exposures.

          • Young CC Prof

            What type of allergies are we talking about, then?

          • LibrarianSarah

            “Wrong. The science is completely different. I posted that source because
            I thought you would have an easier time understanding the information.”

            I know how genetic engineering works thanks. You missed my point twice so I don’t know why you feel the need to talk down to me. And I also know what a quack website looks like. Next time just link to mercola.com and save me some time.

            “Are you sure you are a librarian,”

            That’s what it says on my business card and office door.

            “the info is there but you do have to look. I can’t be doing it all for you, sorry.”

            Ah the old “find the information to prove my claims for me” canard. Hello again old friend.

            “But, if you believe you can consume a product that makes it’s own toxin and not be affected you are wrong. ”

            As CC Prof said a lot of “natural” foods make their own toxins.

            “do not buy GMO products because I have done my own homework.”

            I’m sure you have. Professors Dunning and Kruger would be proud.

            “And I’m not going to spend time looking for sources to back up my statements ”

            That’s obvious.

          • Guestll

            “It’s cool with me if you get chron’s, (sic) IBS, colitis, or even cancer, just don’t say I didn’t warn you.” What a lovely person you are, dear.

          • Trixie

            Luckily, I’m not a caterpillar, so it doesn’t make my stomach explode. You’d think we’d have seen some news stories about exploding stomachs by now.

          • Carrie Looney

            “If you’re good with eating corn”

            If you’re good with eating any corn at all, you’re happy with GMOs. Just ask Barbara McClintock…

          • Trixie

            Human beings have genetically modified crops and livestock for thousands of years. You’re missing the entire point. Your cows and your alfalfa have been created through human selective pressure on their genes.

    • Dr Kitty

      I live in Ireland. Our cows eat grass and silage.
      My SIL and her husband used to drink the raw milk from their herd…until they had kids.
      Now they buy pasteurised milk like everyone else.

  • Trixie

    Attention raw milkers: you’re really behind the curve here. Raw cow’s milk is so 2013. The really natural folks are now drinking raw camel’s milk. Cheers!

    • Anj Fabian

      Amish camel’s milk!

      • Young CC Prof

        I want raw alpaca milk. Where do I buy that?

        • DaisyGrrl

          It’s right next to the raw yak milk at my local supermarket. Maybe you’re not looking hard enough?

          • Mishimoo

            I do hope that you’re using raw yak butter in your tea! It has so many health benefits.

          • Trixie

            Naturally! I mean if the Dalai Lama does it, right?

        • Trixie

          Actually, there’s an alpaca farm a couple miles from here — I can get right on that for you.

      • Trixie

        Amish camels don’t get autism! It’s a fact!

  • Karen

    I’d lie a thousand more times too. Stay out of our business. Its your job to heal us IF we get sick, not prescribe craptons of bad advice, and WORSE stupid medications that make our children sicker. No thanks. YOU Make it so we have to lie so we can run our lives the way it was intended. You are intended to DO NO HARM. It was FINE FOR CENTURIES. Your medicines are there IN CASE something happens, not so you can be judge and jury for a natural way to live. Be a Doctor. That is all you are supposed to do.

    • Trixie

      Which part, exactly, was fine for centuries?

      • Bombshellrisa

        Apparently women dying in pregnancy and childbirth and not knowing if your child would survive past it’s first birthday.

        • Trixie

          I wish I could raise my children to about age 20 and then have them drop dead of diphtheria, personally.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Or die during a war not vouchsafed a hero’s death on the battle field, but of pneumonia from a measles infection as our poor dear captain Hamilton did in Gone With the Wind. In all seriousness I do believe WWII was the first war that the US lost more soldiers to the battlefield than infectious diseases.

          • Siri

            Sullivan, Sullivan, Sullivan; twasn’t poor dear Ashley. Twas poor dear Charles Hamilton who died of measles. Sigh.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Haha, I know I changed it before you posted this. I was thinking about Scarlet which always leads me to think about her saying Ashley.

          • Siri

            You’re forgiven! :-)

    • Mishimoo

      Wait…how exactly are they meant to heal you when you get sick if you keep lying to them?

  • The Computer Ate My Nym

    So, just to confuse the issue further…People with allergic rhinitis are less likely to get glioblastoma than those without allergies. If raw milk protects against allergies, then, unlike cell phones, it does increase the risk of brain tumors.

    Reference.

    • LibrarianSarah

      Seeing that spring has finally come to New England (sort of) and the claritin I took this morning might have well been homeopathic for all the good it’s doing me, I might not mind that increase risk of brain tumors at the moment.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        I sneeze and sympathize. It’s a pretty minor risk, though the relative risk is higher than the relative decrease in risk of allergies from drinking raw milk, even accepting the most optimistic studies at face value.

  • Trixie

    Wait, why all the parachuters on this post today?
    ETA: Attention parachuters: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/02/a-mom-and-a-dairymans-plea-dont-feed-children-raw-milk/

    • Young CC Prof

      Apparently, sent by the Healthy Home Economist for our entertainment! So kind of her!

      • Trixie

        I don’t know whether to thank her for the diversion, or be disappointed that it took her so long to find out that SOB made fun of her.

        • Tiphany Myers

          Yeah, cause the skeptical OB is so in touch, eh? She hasn’t been licensed to practice since 2003. I’ve been here 2 days and the only people on here seem to be supporters of the same point. Hers. How is that a discussion? Is that what you are here for? Or are you here to insult those who think differently than you? I haven’t see you turn out any evidence to counter anything I have posted.

          • Young CC Prof

            Actually we have. You either didn’t read it or weren’t able to understand it.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Actually you have what? Read your s*it before you hit post.

          • Young CC Prof

            We have presented evidence. I just posted another one for you.

          • anion

            Actually, we have turned out evidence, is what Young CC Prof was saying; it was a reply to “I haven’t seen you turn out any evidence to counter anything I have posted.”

            That was perfectly clear to those of us capable of following a written discussion.

            Young CC Prof is not the one with reading comprehension problems here.

    • Tiphany Myers

      Doesn’t say if their cows were grass fed. That makes a difference.

      • Anj Fabian

        So we should all live close enough to a dairy that has grass fed cows, fed an organic diet so we can buy very pricey raw milk that has a short shelf life – so we can be healthier?

        If it cured cancer, diabetes, autism and ignorance then the price and risk might be worth it.

        • Tawnya Howell

          Raw milk does not mold, it ferments. you can leave it out for weeks and still consume it, it will be sour but you can still safely consume it.

          • Dr Kitty

            For a given value of “safely”.

        • Kelly

          Actually the milk I buy from the local farmer is $3/gallon for cow (compared to $5 reg store milk) and $6/gal goat milk (compared to $17/gal store bought). Support local farmers and save money! I do actually pasteurize the goat milk for my baby’s homemade formula and for my dairy allergic toddler, but my husband and older kids drink raw cow milk. As a homeschooling mom, I’ve seen my boys react negatively to processed food and I want to be responsible and give them healthy food without artificial ingredients, chemicals or antibiotics. Thankfully my pediatrician has been supportive of our goat’s milk formula:)

          • Anj Fabian

            But does it cure ignorance?

      • Trixie

        No, it does not make a difference. Please show me your evidence that it makes a difference. And all cows get silage, even ones that are pastured in good weather.

        • GoAWAY

          Nope

        • Tiphany Myers

          Livestock in feedlots are not raised in pastures. Here are some scientific references for you.

          Added health benefits of products from pastured animals

          De Vogel, J., Denise Jonker-Termont et al. (2005). “Green vegetables, red meat and colon cancer: chlorophyll prevents the cytotoxic and hyperproliferative effects of haem in rat colon.” Carcinogenesis.

          Gorelik, S., M. Ligumsky, et al. (2008). “The Stomach as a ‘Bioreactor’: When Red Meat Meets Red Wine.” J Agric Food Chem.

          Massiera, F; Barbry, P; Guesnet, P; Joly, A; Luquet, S; Brest,, CM; Mohsen-Kanson, T; Amri, E and G. Ailhaud. A Western-like fat diet is sufficient to induce a gradual enhancement in fat mass over generations. Journal of Lipid Research. August 2010. Volume 51, pages 2352-2361.

          McAfee, A.J.; E M McSorley; et al. British Journal of Nutrition (2011) Red meat from animals offered a grass diet increases plasma and platelet N-3 PUFA in healthy consumers. Volume 105, pages 80-89

          Mercier, Y., P. Gatellier, M. Renerre (2004). “Lipid and protein oxidation in vitro, and antioxidant potential in meat from Charolais cows finished on pasture or mixed diet.” Meat Science 66: 467-473.

          Smit, Liesbeth A, Ana Baylin, and Hannia Campos. 2010. Conjugated linoleic acid in adipose tissue and risk of myocardial infarction. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Published ahead of print, May 12, 2010.

          Waser, M., K. B. Michels, et al. (2007). “Inverse association of farm milk consumption with asthma and allergy in rural and suburban populations across Europe.” Clin Exp Allergy 37(5): 661-670. Read summary.

          McAfee, A.J.; E M McSorley; G J Cuskelly; A M Fearon; B W Moss; J A M Beattie; J M W Wallace; M P Bonham; J J Strain British Journal of Nutrition (2011) Red meat from animals offered a grass diet increases plasma and platelet N-3 PUFA in healthy consumers. Volume 105, pages 80-89

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Thanks for the bibliography salad, but if you haven’t read the full article (not just the abstract), you aren’t allowed to cite it.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Uggh, you people are too much! Carry on…I’m good. I’m so elated I’ve not managed to lengthen your lives with any worthless information.

    • Bombshellrisa

      It’s April Fools day, silly!

  • Tawnya Howell

    Stick to what you know, drugs, and keep to yourself about what you think you know about nutrition!!! God made real food = health and nutrition.

    • expat

      Raw milk isn’t just about nutrition. It is about bacteria that can make babies deathly ill. Would you stick a poopy finger in your baby’s mouth?

      • Sparta

        Yes, I would also slap it and piss on it. Then my baby would beat the shit out of your weak and worthless baby.

    • Dr Kitty

      God made real food…don’t make me laugh, humans have been modifying crops for thousands of years. It’s been by gradual selective breeding, but it has made huge changes when compared to the natural forms.

      What colour were carrots 400 years ago?
      Talk to me about bananas (they’re clones you know).
      Would a Mayan recognise corn varieties grown today?
      Would an Egyptian recognise our wheat?

      What about apples?
      Would you like to compare a wild crabapple to a Pink Lady?

      The ancient Irish lived on a diet of porridge, whiskey, beef broth, cow’s blood, wood sorrel and buttermilk. Neither healthy nor nutritionally

      • Dr Kitty

        …neither healthy nor nutritionally complete.

      • Young CC Prof

        Wild almonds! Go eat wild almonds! (No, guests, seriously, don’t do it, they contain LOTS of cyanide.)

        • Mishimoo

          But…but… laetrile cures cancer!!

      • Trixie

        I’m gonna sit down to some hot-buttered teosinte tonight! The kids love it! None of that GMO corn for them!

      • Frayssinet

        Dr. Kitty, you are lost and you might not be a Dr. since you cannot identified the difference between a gradual selective breeding, and genetically modify crops. Big difference, don’t you know Dr? go educated yourself, and don’t make me laugh with you silly post.

        • Dr Kitty

          Where did I mention GMO?
          Which part of “it has been by gradual selective breeding” do you have difficulty understanding.

          Look, if I take a wolf and splice a single gene into it from a jellyfish and compare the resulting animal to a Chinese Crested Dog, which one is more like the original natural ancestral wild dog which humans first domesticated? It’s the GMO wolf.

          All of our food crops are essentially the genetic equivalents of poodles, pugs and bulldogs-bred by humans for specific characteristics which do not occur frequently in nature, and just as unnatural as the most inbred dog at Crufts.

          • Trixie

            Jellywolf! There’s a new sci-fi series in there somewhere.

          • Siri

            Or a delicious gummy sweet…

        • Young CC Prof

          Um, that’s the whole point. There is no difference. Most GMO crops involve changes no weirder or more “unnatural” than those we can accomplish with selective breeding. Why use GMO technology? It’s cheaper. With a few months of work in a lab, you can do what would take 100 years and a thousand acres to pull off the old fashioned way.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          In the 1950s we we bombarding seeds with radiation to get a lot of things you probably consume now. What would be a mechanistic difference between breeding genes in, radiating genes in, and splicing them in?

  • Judy Simon

    My 1 year old had asthma. Conventional “treatments” didn’t work. After a lot of research, I learned about raw milk. Fast forward a year later, he has been asthma AND allergy free since he started drinking it.

    • expat

      Anecdata isn’t scientific and you are lucky that he didn’t catch a nasty infection. I wouldn’t flip out if my 8 year old drank raw milk fresh from a dairy, but I sure as heck wouldn’t give it to my newborn!

      • Trixie

        I would flip out if my 8 year old drank raw milk. E coli found in raw milk has mutated; it’s a lot deadlier than it was 25 years ago.

        • expat

          I don’t know enough about raw milk to be scared then, apparently. But I’ll take your word for it and err on the side of caution.

          • Trixie
          • Tiphany Myers

            If you don’t know anything about it, then why are jumping her s*it with this little diatribe of yours above: “Raw milk isn’t just about nutrition. It is about bacteria that can make babies deathly ill. Would you stick a poopy finger in your baby’s mouth”?????????????

          • expat

            My 8 year old’s hands are disgusting and he eats with them. I wash my hands before touching the baby.

        • Judy Simon

          This is due to bacterial resistance, thanks to the massive amounts of antibiotics given to conventional cows that live in CAFO’s.

          • expat

            That doesn’t prevent the organic cows next door from catching it!

          • Young CC Prof

            Virulence is not the same as antibiotic resistance. An infection might be resistant to every antibiotic on the block, but so mild most healthy people can fight it off without treatment (see HA-MRSA). Conversely, an infection can be very sensitive to antibiotics, but so severe that many patients suffer permanent harm or death before antibiotics kick in. (See bacterial meningitis.)

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Why do you comment on things that you obviously are ignorant of?

        • Judy Simon

          This new strain is not limited to raw milk, geniuses. I guess you all better stop eating all produce now.

          • moto_librarian

            This is precisely why I don’t eat organic produce.

          • Young CC Prof

            Also why my husband thoroughly cooks just about all veggies, just like his peasant ancestors who also used organic fertilizer.

          • Trixie

            Pasteurization fixes the problem in raw milk.

    • Judy Simon

      Most of you just repeat the same things, and don’t give it a second thought. You are about 35,000 times more likely to get sick from other foods than you are from raw milk. And statistically, you are more like to get injured driving to the farm to get your pastured milk, then you are from drinking raw it. http://www.realmilk.com/safety/those-pathogens-what-you-should-know/

      • Trixie

        Nobody is against milk from pastured cows. We’re against raw milk. Huge difference.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          I read this initially as “pasturized cows” and was alarmed. I am totally against pasturizing whole cows. It just wouldn’t be nice.

          • Young CC Prof

            I did, too. And pasteurizing whole cows isn’t nice. A well-boiled beef stew, on the other hand, is very nice.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Pasteurized cows, even. Bleh, spelling!

        • GoAWAY

          If you’re against it…here is a suggestion: DON’T BUY IT, AND DON’T DRINK IT! Problem solved.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Funny screen name. Did we come to you? No, you came to us. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

    • Young CC Prof

      You know, a lot of young children outgrow asthma, especially boys. Those conventional treatments, such as inhaled steroids, which “didn’t work” probably helped him to outgrow it.

      And would you care to provide a source for “35,000 times more likely?”

      • Judy Simon

        He got better within the very first few days of starting the milk. I buy my milk weekly, and there have been 2 cases during the busyness of the holidays that I did not pick up. Both times, his allergies flared up. My daughter and I have allergies that have been helped as well. http://www.westonaprice.org/press/government-data-proves-raw-milk-safe

        http://www.realmilk.com/safety/those-pathogens-what-you-should-know/

        • Young CC Prof

          “As for the specific public health impact of drinking raw milk, the Centers of Disease Control (CDC) estimates an annual average of more than eight hundred thousand (845,024) people in the U.S. have
          domestically acquired diarrhea caused by food contaminated with Campylobacter spp.1 an annual average of 34 Campylobacter jejuni illnesses have been attributed to drinking raw milk.”

          I thought that classic bit of intellectual dishonesty might be your source. It’s been passed around before, it’s still nonsense.

          Seriously, do you not see what’s wrong with the math there? An ESTIMATE of total cases. Not the number of reported cases, an estimate which is about 100 times bigger than the number of officially reported cases. Now he’s comparing this huge estimate to the the number of reported cases that could be definitely linked to raw milk. (For many reported cases, the source cannot be found. If the patient doesn’t tell the doctor he drank raw milk, the source won’t be found.)

          In short, it’s not just comparing apples and oranges, it’s comparing the apples in your hand to all the oranges that MIGHT be in Florida.

          • Judy Simon

            Really? How about we use common sense, then. We see outbreaks of food borne illness regularly, rather it be spinach or from beef, but the same is not true for raw milk. I sure don’t see anyone trying to ban either one of those.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            We see outbreaks of food borne illness regularly, rather it be spinach or from beef, but the same is not true for raw milk.

            The CDC begs to differ: “Forty-three
            outbreaks resulted in product recalls.
            The recalled foods were ground beef (eight outbreaks), sprouts (seven),
            cheese and cheese-containing products (six), oysters (five), raw milk
            (three), eggs (three), and salami (ground pepper), bison, sirloin steak,
            unpasteurized apple cider, cookie dough, frozen mamey fruit, hazelnuts,
            Romaine lettuce, ground turkey burger, tuna steak, and a frozen entrée
            (one each)” From Surveillance for foodborne disease outbreaks 2009-10.

          • Tawnya Howell

            Judy said ban, not recall. Comprehension. I sure don’t see anyone trying to ban either one of those, meaning spinach and beef.

          • Young CC Prof

            Yup, ground beef is a common source of food poisoning! 8 outbreaks! Raw milk was only 3!

            However,

            1) The average American eats ground beef once a week or more. Almost 30 pounds per person per year, and most people eat it at least occasionally. Most Americans never drink raw milk. Therefore, drinking recalled raw milk is far more likely than eating recalled ground beef.

            2) We already know that eating raw ground beef is bad. Many restaurants now refuse to serve rare hamburger at all.

            3) Most people who do drink raw milk buy it either directly from the farmer, or from very small distributors. This means that when outbreaks occur, they are less likely to draw the attention of the authorities.

            4) Beef has E. Coli. Milk has E. Coli. See the connection?

        • Trixie

          You realize that realmilk.com is just a WAPF front? And that its purpose is to make you buy a bunch of nutritional supplements from WAPF?

    • moto_librarian

      Hmmm…Did you know that they don’t give a diagnosis of asthma until a child is at least two? Reactive airway is what they call it because it often resolves. Albuterol rarely works on children this age.

      But please, tell us more…

      • Judy Simon

        I’ll put it plainly then, my son struggled to breathe. After having RSV he had bouts of very labored breathing. The doctors vague answers and treatments did nothing to help the situation, raw milk did.

        • moto_librarian

          Or he finally started to get better. Look, both of my kids had RSV as infants, and my not quite two year old is on a daily inhaler during the winter. His older brother just suddenly got over his breathing issues, and he might as well. There is no reason to think that raw milk had a damned thing to do with it.

          • Judy Simon

            At the time I didn’t know, but Tylenol is associated with a great increase risk for asthma because it lowers glutathione levels. But guess what? Milk helps to restore those levels and nitrosoglutathione dilates the bronchioles by stimulating the same receptors as albuterol. http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2012/03/31/with-the-wave-of-a-wand-raw-milk-wipes-away-the-wheeze-how-our-good-friend-glutathione-protects-against-asthma/

          • Trixie

            lolololol
            Weston A Price was a eugenicist dentist who died over 60 years ago and whose work was discredited by science well before that.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I am worried that self diagnosing your children and treating them with dangerous substances for the fake diagnosis is some kind of as yet unidentified mental illness. It makes me nervous for the children of these people.

          • anion

            Smughausen by proxy.

          • Mishimoo

            Our middle girl had bronchiolitis at 18 months, and ended up with an inhaler for a bit. She outgrew it too, I just counted us among the lucky ones (asthma runs in my family).

          • anion

            My youngest had RSV at four months, and got nebulizer treatments for it. She occasionally had breathing issues after that for about two years–nothing serious, but we got her an albuterol inhaler and she did use it every so often in the winter if she sounded wheezy (as in, less than once a month).

            She’s now nine, healthy as a horse, and hasn’t had an issue with her breathing in six years. Oddly, she has never even been in the same room with raw milk.

          • Noah_I

            Yeah, my son was in the same boat. He had RSV at 3 months, had to have a 2 night hospital stay for it, and this past winter (he turned 2 in the middle of the winter), when he got a bad cold, would get reactive airways requiring an albuterol inhaler. Odds are he outgrows it within the next couple of years, independent of what we do.

          • Squillo

            Exactly what happened with my son.

        • Young CC Prof

          RSV is an awful thing for a baby to catch, and I’m sorry. But I agree with Moto, it probably just resolved over time the way most RSV cases do.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          So you misdiagnosed something and then treated with something not proven to work that is dangerous for babies? What kind of parents do things like that? Irresponsible!

          • LibrarianSarah

            Anti-intellectuals that don’t value a medical education (or any education period) think like that.

        • Dr Kitty

          Or the reactive inflammation from the RSV infection wore off…

          Little kids are sniffly and wheezy and have the snuffles. Inhaled beta agonists don’t really work because they don’t yet have the receptors.

          Most of the time the airways get bigger, get less reactive and the snuffles and wheeze improve, if you’re patient.

    • KarenJJ

      My kid had severe eczema as a baby and it’s completely gone now at 5yo.

      Because.. maybe because she started drinking banana smoothies? Or perhaps because she likes eating apples? Or maybe Granny’s cupcakes fixed it? Or maybe she grew out of it and we have less control over this stuff then you think.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        The cupcakes. Definitely the cupcakes. Cupcakes cure everything, especially if made by grandmothers.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          You, obviously, have not had MY cupcakes.

    • Mishimoo

      Why didn’t you try marijuana? My grandmother was prescribed it for asthma as a child and it simply did wonders for her!

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      My father had really bad asthma in the 1950s. He didn’t do much of anything for it than was the norm at that time and by age five it was gone.

  • supply chain guy

    I don’t really have a dog in the fight. My wife breast feeds our kids for a year and then we go to organic, whole, pasteurized milk. I don’t have an issue with disagreeing with raw milk; however, I do take issue with you demanding that all that differ from your opinion must be fools incapable of rational, intelligent thought. You keep asking commenters to provide studies and statistics, yet you have provided none yourself. The only demonstrated credential you have is a self-proclaimed understanding of microbiology.

    I will be the first to tell you that I don’t understand microbiology. I am a supply chain expert for a global oil and gas company. To reach my career level, I was required to complete an education that was arguably as rigorous as any general practitioner of medicine. This doesn’t give me authority in clinical settings but should serve as evidence that I’m capable of research and educated, critical thinking. I trust our pediatrician implicitly; if I didn’t, I’d find a new one. So when it came to questions of vaccination and raw milk, we deferred to her judgment, but not without asking tough questions. She answered all of them and provided peer-reviewed studies for us to look into that argued BOTH sides. We came back a week later and discussed any further questions. Maybe pasteurization will ruin my children Maybe GMOs will ruin others. Perhaps raw milk will ruin others still. We do the best we can with the information available. A true scientist would advocate this approach. To me, your opinion is just as ignorant and invalid as the Healthy Home Economist. You provide no evidence to support your claims, yet you demand it from readers. Do you not see how backwards that is? The burden of proof is always on the person proclaiming to be an expert. I have never done a single lecture in which I spout off all of my opinions, with know evidentiary basis, and then demand that the audience accept my opinions. I may be right, but the authority of my comments is only implied to a certain extent. If I begin speaking about something that individuals have experienced in their supply chains and tell them that it was all fictitious, they shut down. The know it is real because they experienced it. At that point, I set out to establish why their experience was anomalous and shouldn’t be thought of as the norm. You do this with evidence.

    Again, I am a supply chain professional, so I can’t and won’t speak to the microbiology of nutrition. However, I too am an expert in my field and an educator, and from that basis, I have authority to speak and tell you that, based only on what I’ve seen in this blog and comments, that you are ignorant and complacent in the knowledge gained while seeking your doctorate. Shoot, if I rested o. What I learned in my graduate studies, my company would have one of the least efficient supply chains in the Fortune 500. Consequently, we probably wouldn’t even make the list. If I thought I knew everything and that anybody lacking my degrees and certifications was too simple to add value to my endeavors, I wouldn’t be where I am today. And this is supply chain we’re talking about. How much more complex is our physical world, the human body, and the food we eat? So to think that your degree is the be all, end all is absolutely infantile. I hope, for the sake of the children you claim to defend, that parents ignore you and the Healthy Home Economist. You’re both paranoid quacks.

    • Young CC Prof

      Right. Dr. Amy rests on her laurels. That’s why she reads and quotes so many technical journals, to make sure she doesn’t learn anything new that might contradict what she learned in school!

      • supply chain guy

        That may well be the case in other posts, but not in this one. Also, the ability for a person to read journals that validate their pre-held beliefs is not at all impressive. As there is significant division among nutritionists and health professionals on this matter, I have to assume she only reads that which offers confirmation of what she already believes. See, it’s one thing to sit around and bully the random internet user; it’s another thing entirely to mock those that have the same, or better, credentials. Either way is disrespectful and childish, but the latter is just plain foolish. This lady has no idea about the background and education of any person here, but she assumes she’s the most educated and intelligent person at the table. That is a dead giveaway that her ground is shaky, at best. So young cc Prof, you would do well to consider the person within whom you are throwing your lot. In the anonymity of the internet, it doesn’t much matter, but in real life it can ruin you. I may not know nutrition, but I do know the corporate world, and the wrong coat tails will drag you right into oblivion. The same is true in universities.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      I am a supply chain expert for a global oil and gas company.

      BP? (Sorry, that was rude. Let me try again.)

      I’m one of your suppliers. Seriously. My family has a little, tiny oil well which we rent to a major company to extract the oil from. How would you feel about my demanding that you prove to me that a pipeline was a more efficient method of transporting oil than an open trench? Or asked “tough questions” like whether it was better to burn the oil for fuel or use it to patch holes in boats like our ancestors did was a better use. Because your questions are about as sensible. What exactly is bad about killing the bacteria in milk apart from it’s being “unnatural”?

      • supply chain guy

        Just to be clear, I’m not advocating for raw milk. I thought that was clear. I didn’t actually ask any questions about raw milk on this forum. I did ask our pediatrician. No, I don’t work for BP. Now, for your real question: if you were to ask me questions about open trench oil movement and patching holes in boats (which is the opposite side of the supply chain from me), I would first of all acknowledge that for quite some time, that was an effective use. Then I would use data gathered by experts on oil movement and uses and form an option off of that. What I wouldn’t do is tell you that the burden of proof was on you to show me why you should move and use your oil in a different way than I would. If I want you to change the way you live, the burden of proof is on me. Again, as I said in the very first few sentences, my family uses pasteurized milk. I would ask that you reread my original post, as you seem to have confused it with other comments here. My issue is not with pasteurized or raw milk; it is with self-proclaimed experts being condescending to people they don’t know and making very harsh and nonsensical judgments based solely on the fact that those people subscribe to European nutrition standards, rather than American.

        • Young CC Prof

          Um, the European Union banned the international sale of raw milk. For safety reasons, although, under French pressure, they still allow the export of raw-milk cheese.

          • Trixie

            And, research has shown that the aging rules for raw-milk cheese are not really adequate to kill e coli. They were developed to prevent the spread of tuberculosis in raw milk, not today’s pathogens.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          if you were to ask me questions about open trench oil movement and
          patching holes in boats (which is the opposite side of the supply chain
          from me), I would first of all acknowledge that for quite some time,
          that was an effective use. Then I would use data gathered by experts on
          oil movement and uses and form an option off of that.

          ‘K. Go for it. Why are we wasting oil on cars when we could be using it to patch boats? As I said, I really am a supplier, albeit not necessarily really for your company.

          Actually, if you’re going to go through the trouble of taking my questions seriously, maybe I’ll ask a real one: Why are we wasting oil on low value processes like running internal combustion engines and heating buildings (both of which could be done by other means) rather than saving it for production of technical plastics, which really can’t? I’m considering asking them to cap the well and save the remaining oil for later use…

          • Tawnya Howell

            So no real answer to The Computer Ate My Nym’s question, maybe you could not understand his point, or maybe when you can not answer someones question, just use sarcasm and to make yourself think you have won this difference of opinion

    • Guestll

      Where are the peer-reviewed studies arguing “the other side” of raw milk and vaccination? The ones your pediatrician gave you to review? Links?

  • Mainstream med needs a clue

    Salmonella and E. coli can’t survive in raw milk – only in the ultra-pasteurized, call-it-white-water-it’s-not-milk that you and your cronies recommend. PS Have you ever heard of Justina Pelletier? The pediatrician is no longer our friend, they are representatives of the state. Any parent who does ANYTHING different that what Big Brother advises NEEDS to lie about it, or risk having their children removed. This is what comes right after “social justice” folks. At first it’s all “we just want everything to be fair” but shortly afterwards it turns to “we know what’s best for you, so do it, or else.”

    • Trixie

      Um….

      • Anj Fabian

        Here. Try this tinfoil hat, it might make the meme reception clearer.

        • Trixie

          Oh, thanks Anj. That’s tons better! Have you noticed you look a little…lizardy lately? Any chance you’ve been to Alpha Draconis?

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Wow! I have seen a lot of people try make their own truths but they are usually not this diametrically opposed to reality.

  • GoAWAY

    There are tons of kids you can save from the long lines at McDonalds go save them, and leave us alone.

    • Guestll

      Yet another smug demonstrating that raw milk has as much to do with elitism as it does with any purported “health benefits.”

      • GoAWAY

        Really…goes to show you know nothing about it. Many of you have no idea the sacrifices and work that goes into sourcing raw milk, organic vegetables and pasture fed and finished meat. Or the entire life style change that is necessary. For me I am so passionate about it that we’ve moved to an area we can farm (for our own table). It was a huge financial commitment, not to mention the amount of work that is required daily. All we ask is for you and those who love to attack others to stay out of our business.

        • Guestll

          Proving my point.

          • GoAWAY

            Ok, got it I’m smug! Thanks I’ll try to do better.

          • Guestll

            Yes, yes, you are. You and your special snowflakes are so much better than the vast unwashed hoards at McDonalds. Your sacrificial, labour-intensive lifestyle and your “huge financial commitment” are demonstrably superior.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            I would rather spend money and time on things that would really benefit my children like activities or classes.

          • GoAWAY

            Then do it, has anyone said you shouldn’t do that. Or that you are misinformed as to what is important. We all do the best we can with what we have.

          • GoAWAY

            And you are angry because I live differently than you? Confused as to why my lifestyle matters to you all.

          • Guestll

            You haven’t a clue as to how I live.

            I don’t give a rat’s about your lifestyle. But your elitism is gross.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          any of you have no idea the sacrifices and work that goes into sourcing raw milk, organic vegetables and pasture fed and finished meat.

          And for what? Nothing, really.

          Although I do have to say, you have an interesting way of trying to counter the claim that it’s as much about elitism as anything else.

        • Durango

          So because you work really hard to get your food and you are super duper passionate, your food is automatically safe? Got it. Every single person who works really hard to get their food never encounters pathogenic bacteria. I had no idea!

  • De

    Interesting… So now I wonder… My large family of 9 who grew up on a dairy farm, drank tons of raw milk, ate butter and lots of cheese all made from raw milk. Not a single allergy, very healthy (I don’t recall any of us ever going to a Dr.) My hubbies family on the other hand has not been so lucky. They followed the FDA recommendations by drinking pasteurized everything, margarine not butter. Don’t leave anything to chance, be safe & follow the FDA. They suffer from every allergy under the sun. IDK anything, I’m just an uneducated farm girl doing what has proven to work for us. Maybe someday I’ll get sick. I don’t know about all of you but for now I love my medication free life!

    • Young CC Prof

      1) The worst danger in raw milk is E. Coli, which is actually a new problem that didn’t exist before about 1970.

      2) Anecdote.

      3) There is some evidence that farm children have fewer allergies. It’s not diet, though, it’s soil exposure.

    • LibrarianSarah

      Congratulations. Just keep reminding yourself how you are so much better than those icky sick and disabled people. You don’t sound like an ass the parrots the just world hypothesis and blames the sick for their own illnesses at all.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      I had friends in high school who drove drunk pretty much every weekend. They didn’t have a single problem.

      In contrast, two girls I knew were driving sober and safe and were crushed by an out-of-control semi.

      Guess that means that drunk driving is better than not.

      • De

        Sorry about the girls you knew. Hope it wasn’t your friends driving the semi.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Nope, random driver, random location.

          Two perfectly fine young people doing everything right dead.

          Meanwhile, lots of classmates engaging in risky behavior perfectly fine.

          What’s the lesson?

          • LibrarianSarah

            I’ll take “life sucks” for 500 Alex

          • De

            The lesson… Live while you can, life is short. If you have to break the rules now & then, so be it. Do what you know to be your best. Oh and stay the hell away from victim personalities they always have some type of problem created by anybody but themselves.

          • Durango

            lolololol!!

          • LibrarianSarah

            Keep rubbing that talisman De. You are not lucky, you are better than everyone else. The world is a just place and anyone who says otherwise are whiners with a victim mentality. Nothing bad will ever happen to you because you eat organic food.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            The lesson is that life sucks. I’m sorry about your friends.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Unfortunately, that is not the only lesson. OTOH, life is charmed for all those friends who drove drunk and survived.

            At least, they will act like it is. They are just doing everything right.

      • Tawnya Howell

        So you are say her family did not have any health issues from raw milk by chance? luck? Dumb and unfair comparison. Think about it…

        • Young CC Prof

          Um, yes, he is saying that people who drink raw milk are taking a risk. Some get sick, and some, through luck, do not get sick.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          So you are say her family did not have any health issues from raw milk by chance? luck?

          Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

        • De

          Luck, yes pure LUCK! Kind of like when you take meds and you don’t get sick and die from all the misdiagnosing, wrong prescription giving medical circus that calls this blog home. Now that is luck at it’s finest. That legal prescription concoction that is pumped into people is one of the largest killers in America and all we have to say for ourselves is “Opps! Better LUCK next time.” Let’s outlaw the sun because apparently some people have bad luck with dealing with that as well.

    • Trixie

      Because e coli have mutated and become deadlier in the past 25 years. This is not your grandfather’s bacteria.

      • Judy Simon

        Cows from factory farms that are fed GMO corn and pumped up with unnecessary antibiotics have this problem, not healthy, grass-fed cows.

        • expat

          Oh, campylobacter. I stupidly took a trip in my 5th month to bermuda with my 1 year old. The hotel was somewhat primitive and next to a small, organic dairy farm. We all got it, probably from contaminated water or food. Bloody poop and fever. My husband had the fever hit him as we were about to board the plane back home and could barely walk. Baby got dehydrated and needed medical treatment. By the time I got cultured, I was mostly better, but I got treated like I had dodged a bullet because it wasn’t the type of campylobacter that causes miscarriages.

        • Trixie

          Citation needed.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Early exposure to dirt appears to decrease the risk of allergies and asthma. It was probably playing in the mud and occasionally eating it that decreased your risk of allergies, not the raw milk. Or genetics. Genetics count for a lot in immunology.

    • moto_librarian

      If you grew up on a farm, you probably had a lot of contact with all of the animals, including their germs, and, ahem, their fecal material. Some evidence exists to suggest that this has a protective effect, but it has to be sustained. Kids who live in the suburbs have not had this level of exposure, and are therefore at high risk of contracting illness from raw milk.

      Here’s another little anecdote for you. My grandfather was a dairy farmer for 60+ years. My Dad and his siblings did not drink unpasteurized milk, nor did my grandfather once it became standard. Wonder why?

    • Guestll

      Here’s my anecdote. My husband grew up on a working dairy farm, owned by his family for three generations. His twin brother is asthmatic and suffers from fairly nasty seasonal allergies. He was hospitalized four times with pneumonia as a child. On the other hand, my husband doesn’t have asthma or allergies, and never had pneumonia.

      Both boys drank raw milk and ate products made from raw milk. That was 30 years ago. Neither man would go near the stuff now. Times have changed and so has e coli.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Well, my family grew up in an affluent suburb and drank delivered pasteurized milk, though we always did eat real butter as do I now, and not a single allergy, very healthy (though we are normal well visit people). My husband grew up in my same neighborhood with the same dairy consuming habits and his family is the same. Really the allergy thing has more to do with living around animals. Though there is nothing wrong with drinking your own raw milk from your own farm.

    • Dr Kitty

      I have a patient who grew up on a beef farm…who has developed an anaphylactic allergy to beef albumin.
      Really.
      We had a good laugh about the irony. He’s quite happy, it gives him a good reason to get out of inheriting the farm.

  • NobodyLikesYouAmy

    I’m pretty sure Sarah Pope doesn’t get a cut of what I pay my local farmer for nutrient-rich milk from his pastured cows. Furthermore, anyone who has searched for homemade baby formula recipes because they have enough common sense not to feed their baby the poison that comes in a can (from poisoned cows eating poisoned grain) will likely have come to her recipe after doing thorough research on safe alternatives when breastmilk isn’t available. If Sarah profits from good advice, what’s it to you? You profit from killing mothers and mutilating babies. At least she’s doing some good in the world!

    • Young CC Prof

      Um, her baby formula recipe IS poisonous. It contains a toxic dose of vitamin A, and plenty of liver, which is the most toxic meat product.

      • Dave

        “the most toxic meat product”….only if the animal is toxic in general.

        • Young CC Prof

          All living organisms accumulate poisons, whether from diet or from the process of metabolism, and the greatest concentration is found in the liver, far above what’s found in meat or milk.

          Go ahead, prove me wrong! Do your own research!

          • Dave

            I don’t think you are wrong. But the AMOUNT of poisons can vary greatly, and liver also has a very beneficial nutrient profile to balance out that equation.

          • Young CC Prof

            Beneficial nutrition? Sure, for most older children and adults. But it’s wrong for babies. (And pregnant women, the Vitamin A overdose can cause birth defects.)

            Sarah Pope’s baby formula does not match the nutrient balance of breast milk. Commercial infant formula does. Any questions?

          • Tawnya Howell

            Yes. How many toxic ingredient can you find in store bought formula? A Slew of them.

          • Young CC Prof

            Excellent rebuttal! Now name 2 toxic ingredients in infant formula. Explain what specific toxins they contain and in what quantities, and compare the dose in infant formula to the LD-50.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Aluminum!!!!!!!!!

            Oh wait, that’s breast milk….

          • Mer

            Dihydrogen monoxide is in all formula, it’s everywhere and the sheeple have no clue!
            http://www.dhmo.org

          • Young CC Prof

            No! Not DHMO! I’ve heard just a few ounces of pure DHMO can cause serious illness in infants!

          • Trixie

            DHMO kills more people every year than even raw milk.

          • Mer

            It can, it’s so very dangerous. People just don’t understand how dangerous chemicals are!

          • Trixie

            Yes, but, if you’re Food Babe, you believe that DHMO’s crystalline structure is impacted by positive and negative emotions that people project onto it.
            Allow me to purify your water by Facetiming it and saying nice things to it. Then your baby’s bottle will be totes safe.

          • DaisyGrrl

            Love the MSDS on that site. “Prolonged contact with skin will cause wrinkling.”

      • Trixie

        It’s almost as if…she has no training…and just made it up….

      • Tawnya Howell

        Liver is one of the healthiest meat ever, do your research.

        • Trixie

          For newborns?

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          Liver is only “healthy” to certain people and certain circumstances. And, for that matter, certain types of liver. Polar bear liver, for example, can be toxic or deadly due to high vitamin A content. One serving of beef liver contains 90% of the RDA of cholesterol. And 25% of the RDA of iron. Why do I consider that last one bad? Think about what happens if a person with hemochromatosis eats liver regularly.

          • Young CC Prof

            It’s pretty easy for adult men in the first world to get excess iron even if they don’t have hemochromatosis. There’s some evidence that too much iron can contribute to cardiovascular disease.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            OTOH, liver is full of vitamin B12. If you’ve got pernicious anemia and want to treat it the old fashioned way, take 1/2 pound of raw liver every day. Seriously. That used to be how PA was treated before ebil big pharma came up with purified B12.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Or we could discuss the Castle treatment for B12 deficiency, which is REALLY gross…

          • Trixie

            She doesn’t know what that is and she probably isn’t googling it.

    • moto_librarian

      No, home birth midwives are the ones profiting from killing and mutilating women and their babies, but thanks for playing!

      Did you know that a woman excretes mercury in her breastmilk? If you’re going to bitch and moan about formula, don’t you think it’s fair to disclose that little gem as well.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    To those who have parachuted in from Facebook, I suggest that you take a good look at the comments in the post that you have come from. What are they really, but ignorant people telling each other they are smarter than educated people?

    That’s resentment, folks, not knowledge.

    • Tawnya Howell

      Experience is knowledge. Sorry but you have studied some of the wrong advice, teachings…

      • expat

        Says the flat earth skeptic.

      • Amy Tuteur, MD

        Actually, Tawny, science tells us specifically that personal experience is NOT knowledge. But feel free to jettison science if you want. I prefer to follow its tenets.

        • Tiphany Myers
        • Tawnya Howell

          Oh, oh, sorry. I did not know you could never learn anything from experiencing it. I must read books to make sure, I never knew DR’s could never ever be wrong about anything, never bias ….

      • Young CC Prof

        I don’t study advice and teachings, I study evidence.

  • Tiphany Myers

    Dr. Tuteur, It is important all physicians realize there are changes coming to the practice of medicine. No longer will your profession be permitted to be ignorant on homeopathic remedies and alternatives. It is no longer acceptable for physicans to see 3 patients an hour and do continuing education only when boards are coming up – not that anything reomtely related to natural medicine, vitamins or god forbid nutrition would be on there. Us sheeple as you call us have pulled back the hideous curtain on western medicine. All one needs to do is follow the money, big pharma kills more people with properly prescribed medicine than anything us ‘natural ignorami’ do. Once your profession gets “inthe know” on how GMO’s are hormone disrupters, maybe you’ll have our ear again…who knows, it may be too late by then.

    • expat

      Invasion of the conspiracy theorists.. did you know that lavender and tea tree oil are very potent hormone disruptors? All natural. Did you know that homeopathy is quackery?

      • Tiphany Myers

        it’s only a conspiracy if there is no proof, and there is proof. there is also proof of trolls, but we don’t have to put up any source citations to know that is true.

        • Siri

          Sorry Tiph, all the evidence says trolls DON’T exist. The 3 Billygoats Gruff is a work of fiction.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Homeopathic remedies are free? Sarah Pope doesn’t sell the products she recommends?

      Let’s get real here: the blithering about Big Pharma and Big Medicine is a smokescreen for those who profit from Big Placebo. If you can’t see that, then you are astoundingly naive.

      • Tiphany Myers

        Just because vitamin companies make money from selling vitamins doesn’t mean they are evil, they don’t have patent protection like big pharma. pharma has rigged the system, and if you don’t realize that then you are the one who is naive my dear. the body can and does heal itself but physicans dole out the meds. i know you don’t think of yourself as a drug dealer, but you shold realize to many folks you are. we are not naive, or uninformed. in fact, i’m sure there are many things you could be learning right now instead of arguing with people who will never trust an MD who peddles legal drugs. we realize you’re not THE problem, but your attitude and allegiance to governemnt agencies (CDC, FDA) that are fraught with corrupt officials and scientists on the take, manipulating scientific evidence- it is beyond deplorable.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          pharma has rigged the system,

          Then they are incompetent.

          Do you know how much pharma fails? Only 5 out of 5000 drugs that get make it to “pre-clinical testing” (which means that they are promising enough to actually be tested to see if they have any biological activity) get into human trials. And only 1/5 drugs that get to human trials end up getting approved for use.

          So despite being in a “rigged system”, pharma can only pull off a success rate of 1 in 5000? Something makes no sense.

          Actually, the problem that pharma faces is that, the stuff they sell actually has to do some good AND can’t cause problems.

          Yes, they get patent rights, but that applies to everyone who invents something new.

          I’m trying to understand how the system is rigged to favor pharma, when it makes it nearly impossible for them to succeed. Meanwhile, anyone can sell vitamins, without even having to show that what they are selling contains any vitamins, much less that it does any good.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Follow the money. Pharma pays the FDA to rush approval. They reapply for patent protection under a new treatable condition and sell give them flawed/manipulated studies showing it worked for that. It’s BS. Look at all the drugs that have been pulled after b eing approved and on the shelf for many years. its all to re-cup money. they don’t care how many poeple dies from it. and neither do the docs who prescribed. it’s business as usual for all the players.
            Take a peek at the cronism in the FDA and pharma: http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/how-big-pharma-controls-the-fda/#.Uzsc6f6PLcs

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Follow the money. Pharma pays the FDA to rush approval.

            So you think the FDA is taking bribes?

            If so, why doesn’t the FDA take bribes to approve more drugs?

            BTW, the most vocal lobby for rushing approval is not the drug companies, it is those who are sick and are trying to get relief.

            Are those cancer patients part of the conspiracy?

          • Tiphany Myers

            I know the FDA is corrupt. Michael Taylor is the head, he used to work for Monsanto. Cancer patients? They grasp on to hope. Watch “Burzynski”…The cancer industry makes bllions. not millions, billions. they can’t afford to go out of the business of cancer. there are no cures, there won’t ever be, only management with drugs and surgeries and follow-ups.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Burzynksi is a quack that scams cancer patients out of their hard earned money. The fact that the FDA hasn’t shut him down yet shows how we are far to lax in the prosecution of con artists in this country. He should be in cuffs right now.

          • Young CC Prof

            Burzynski now? The most evil scam artist in America? These people are so cute.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Did I ever say he was the curer of cancer? no, i did not. the film does point out how government interferes to protect big business.

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            I’ll admit to never having seen the film and so maybe I misunderstood your comment. If you’re saying that the film demonstrates how corruption and incompetence in the FDA kept them from prosecuting big businessman/conartist Burzynski and allowed him to continue to be a parasite on desperate and seriously ill people, I’ll agree with you. It’s an absolute scandal that the FDA hasn’t gone after Burzynski. Also that they continue to allow the sale of unproven and often toxic “natural” treatments. The “natural” medical movement’s killed a lot of people, directly or indirectly.

            http://whatstheharm.net/

          • The Computer Ate My Nym

            Not a single person ever has been cured by Burzynski’s crap. He is the worst sort of snake oil salesman, taking advantage of vulnerable people to make money without giving them anything back.

            In contrast, Big Pharma has cured quite a number of people with cancer. In 1954 when Sadako Sasaki developed acute lymphoblastic leukemia, it was a death sentence, no question. In 2014 a 12 year old with ALL has a better than 90% chance of cure. Big Pharma did that, not natural foods, not raw milk, certainly not Burzynski. Big Pharma has issues. It’s greedy, inertia heavy, and unimaginative. But it gives something in return for taking your money. Unlike quacks like Burzynski.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Watch “Burzynski”..

            Tiphany, have you ever heard of Pablo’s First Law of Internet Discussion? If not, let me tell you about it. It says, “In an internet discussion, assume someone knows more about it than you do.”

            You really think that the posters contributing hear don’t know all about Stan Burzynski and his neoplatins version of chemotherapy?

            BTW, I am trying to figure out your point – Burzynski’s problem with the FDA is that he hasn’t actually done any trials to report. He can’t get FDA approval because he has never actually finished any trials…that have been going on for more than 20 years.

            OTOH, you want to talk about corrupt? This is the guy that charges hundreds of thousands of dollars for patients to participate in a drug trial!!!!

            If a pharmaceutical company tried something like that, they’d be run out as the lowest of low. Forcing people to pay for something that, by definition, you have not shown to work (that’s why it is in trials) is the sleaziest practice imaginable. Taking advantage of desperate patients like that.

          • Young CC Prof

            This really is a classic example of Pablo’s First Law.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Jeez, and I’m not even an expert in Burzynski by any means (in fact, it was when Orac went Burzynski crazy that I stopped reading RI – it was just too boring). Even so, I am still very familiar with his crap.

            Watch Burzynski…please.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Oh the internet has laws on discussion? now you’ve made me laugh! thanks, i needed that. this was almost getting contentious. lol

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It’s really good advice, because it helps advance the discussion, instead of having folks like you waste your time trying to educate people, and those people spending their time laughing at your ignorance.

          • Tiphany Myers

            ad hominem…

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Saying someone is ignorant of a subject is not an insult. I do not think you know what the word means.

          • Trixie

            Laws in the sense of scientific laws. Like gravity, or thermodynamics. And yes, the internet has laws. I predict you will violate Godwin’s Law in 5. 4. 3. 2. 1…..

          • Tiphany Myers

            thanks for the lessons trix.

          • DaisyGrrl

            I’m beginning to wonder if you’re an example of Poe’s Law.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Cancer is a normal human condition of age. How do you cure the human condition? Cancer is not one disease it is 1000s. How can a miracle drug cure 1000s of diseases? Do you know, I have done a lot of work at and for Monsanto. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the biotech field in my area who has not and would be even harder pressed to find anyone impressive. I have no financial interest in Monsanto, their products, or GMOs. I have never had to declare any conflicts of interest because of work there.

          • Young CC Prof

            Oh my gosh! They pulled drugs just because they were shown to be dangerous! Clearly, the FDA is out to kill us all!

            Also, the word is cronyism, not cronism.

          • Tiphany Myers

            I’m not one of your students. Go back to your community college podium if you need validation on your lexiconic abilities. You know what I meant.

          • Young CC Prof

            On the Internet, no one knows who you are. All we know is what you write and how you write. If you make frequent spelling and grammar mistakes, people have less respect for your opinions. It might not be fair, but that’s how the world works.

          • Tiphany Myers

            I am not concerned, in the least, about my use of the English language in the written form. If you discount people’s opinions because of a missed letter, then you are looking to diminish the truth within the statement when you have no other leg upon which to stand.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            Really, when it comes to big pharma people are looking at the wrong problem. In my opinion the biggest problem is that they spend an upwards of 80% of their R&D budget on trying to figure out how to repattent old drugs.

        • LibrarianSarah

          Vitamin Companies are just as big and powerful as Drug Companies. Have you ever heard of the Health and Education Act of 1994? It is basically when the supplement industry “rigged the system” so they don’t have to undergo the same amount of scrutiny as drug companies. For example, supplements are not regulated by the FDA because they are considered a “food product.” You can read all about it here:

          http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/kessler.html

          and here

          http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/dshea.html

    • LibrarianSarah

      Homeopathic remedies are WATER. If a homeopathic remedy cures your sickness, you weren’t really sick in the first place. You are just another one of the worried well rubbing on any talisman that you think will prevent you from becoming one of those icky sick and disabled people.

    • Siri

      Are you listening, Dr Kitty, you lazy lout?! No more seeing 3 patients an hour! From now on, you’ll have to see at least 5. Beware the Hideous Curtain, for it shall make you quake in your boots. Or ballet flats. Whichever is comfier. The natural ignorami have spoken.

      • Dr Kitty

        Hahhhahahah
        I saw 32 patients in a little over 5 hours today.

  • Marie

    My husband, a very healthy 67 year old, was raised on raw milk. My neighbors raise their kids on raw milk. I know many, many people in our small town who only drink raw milk. I haven’t heard about any of them becoming sick or having any of the other problems you link to the consumption of raw milk. In fact, they seem to be healthier than other families. Perhaps they are healthy not because of the raw milk, but because they feed their animals on organically grown grass and grain, and not herbicide-laden hay and GMO grain. As a mother who nursed, I know firsthand that what you eat goes directly into your milk and into your baby. No wonder so many of our digestive systems are Dairy Intolerant.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      I have a healthy relative who smoked for the past 40 years. Does that prove smoking is safe? According to you it does.

      • Missy

        It always floors me when people have no understanding that anecdotes can’t negate research statistics and that research statistics apply to the whole, not an individual.

        Even more frustrating is how linking to this article now has me wasting my time investigating raw milk studies and why Europe evidently has vending machines… who knew? Curiosity got the best of me.

        • Dave

          Scientific studies are more valid than anecdotes, of course. However, it is in the realm of what a scientific study ACTUALLY proves, as opposed to what it is PURPORTED to prove, that things tend to get a bit more interesting.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          It always floors me when people have no comprehension of the scientific method and basic logic.

          • Tawnya Howell

            Hmmm, just take a look at how many people that have died from legal compared to raw milk.

        • Young CC Prof

          One anecdote of a person who did something without harm proves nothing.

          One anecdote of a person who suffered harm proves that a risk exists.

          Actual studies quantify risk.

          And curiosity got the best of you? I love it when that happens! I love it when people are inspired to confirm their beliefs and prove things.

          -An actual statistician.

      • Sullivan ThePoop

        True, my grandmother smoked for a long time, not heavily though and lived to 97 years old. She went to the doctor regularly and was never even prescribed a single daily medicine in her life. I guess we should all start smoking 6-10 cigs a day for 80 years for good health.

    • guesting

      Grandfather lived to be 100 and smoked, drank, and never exercised. He ate ice cream every day (not raw) toward the end of his life. He loved corn-fed beef. I guess we should follow his example.
      Also, most of the world is lactose intolerant and it has nothing to do with raw milk or not. Asians, African descent, Indian…white people are really the only ones who drink milk at high rate. So I think lactose intolerance is more genetic than anything else.

      • Young CC Prof

        Yes, I agree. Lactose intolerance is heavily dependent on ethnic origins, most adults of East Asian descent have it to one degree or another, and it’s much rarer in European populations.

    • The Computer Ate My Nym

      Many of our digestive systems are dairy (lactose) intolerant because we’re descended from people who didn’t domesticate cows or drink milk on a regular basis. There’s a well described genetic polymorphism that results in continual up-regulation of lactase in adulthood and those of us who lack it (or, possibly, are heterozygous for it) are intolerant of lactose because of that. It has nothing to do with GMO, herbicide, or anything else except genetics.

      • The Computer Ate My Nym

        Though I will say if someone developed a safe way to knock in genes I wouldn’t mind someone GMOing me to better lactase persistence.

        • Trixie

          Oh dude, there’s so many things I’d GMO about myself.

          • Siri

            GMO can only do so much for your appearance – I’d need a hefty dose of CGI too…

      • Marie

        My comment was regarding Dairy Intolerance, not lactose intolerance, which is different. And I am a descendant of dairy farmers from way back – Northern European heritage. And from my personal experience, I disagree with your assertion. If milk is from a cow that has eaten corn, GMO or not, I cannot eat it as I am allergic to corn, and I become very ill. When my local raw milk provider feeds his cow grain containing corn, (even if I don’t know he’s done that) I can tell by my body’s reaction. My point is, from my personal experience as a lactating mammal, what I eat comes through my milk. And that is why I choose only organic, grass-fed raw milk.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          My comment was regarding Dairy Intolerance, not lactose intolerance, which is different.

          Oh? What element in dairy is it that you’re talking about? Dairy is, in fact, an evil GMO food (cows are NOT natural critters) and there are a number of potential antigens in milk, but not sure which one you’re trying to analyze.

        • The Computer Ate My Nym

          I’m not sure how much corn antigen can be left after digestion either. The point of digestion is to break down the proteins into other proteins, but it isn’t perfect. I’m willing to believe that you can tell the difference. Anyway, being forced to eat corn is pretty hellish for cows and I’d prefer farmers to go to grass only for ethical reasons. If that means fewer cows, more expensive meat and milk, so be it. (Though I should point out that I don’t eat beef for ethical/squick reasons and can’t tolerate much lactose so the only thing I get out of cows is cheese and the occasional leather shoe and therefore my assessment of how bad it would be if cow products were more expensive is suspect.)

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          You do know that corn allergies are extremely rare and usually of the pollen variety so I do not know what a rare form of an extremely rare allergy has to do with any of this.

          That would be like me saying that salicylates are a huge problem because for some reason I have a very rare real (I have an antibody) allergy to some.

    • Trixie

      http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/02/a-mom-and-a-dairymans-plea-dont-feed-children-raw-milk/
      Wow, who knew that lactation gives you the same training as a microbiologist?

      • Marie

        I was commenting from my experience. I never claimed to have the same training as a microbiologist. Why would you say I had?

        • Trixie

          Because you claimed that because you nursed a baby you had special insight into anything relating to microbiology or food allergies. You don’t.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      Lactose intolerance comes from the fact that humans only recently, in evolutionary history, developed the ability to digest it. So, lactose intolerance was the norm before evolutionary pressure changed that.

      • Dr Kitty

        Never mind that many people with food intolerances and allergies haven’t been diagnosed by an Immunologist.
        Real diagnosis involves some combination of gut biopsies, RAST tests, IgG screens and patch testing.

        What many people with “intolerances” have done is either a self administerd exclusion diet with a subjective feeling of well-being on removing “suspect” foods (highly open to placebo effect) OR they have been diagnosed by a CAM Practictioner using something like Bio Resonance EAV.

        http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/electro.html

        Bio resonance EAV is a voltmeter and wishful thinking and is less than useless at diagnosing allergies.

        In other words, many of the allergy and intolerance diagnoses are fake.

        • Sullivan ThePoop

          I have fructose malabsorption disorder that was confirmed. First they took blood, then they did 4 office visits worth of different breath tests, then they did a bunch of different breath tests for fructose. Later they actually did some sequencing too, but that was because the amount of fructose/glucose ratio that I could absorb was abnormally low and it kept giving me low blood sugar which is odd but turned out to be kind of unrelated. I thought they could also do lactose that way, am I wrong. Isn’t it just measuring the amount of hydrogen gas released by microbial species in the intestines due to sugar consumption?

          • Dr Kitty

            You’re right, I forgot to add breath tests.

  • moto_librarian

    Welcome to all of the Google PhDs! Glad to know that you’ve all “done your research.” I hope that your children survive despite your idiotic beliefs.

  • Amy Tuteur, MD

    The truly impressive thing about raw milk enthusiasts is that they are gullible sheeple, believing everything is a giant conspiracy and only they are smart enough to see through it.

    You must feel very, very small and powerless to think that you are making a statement by risking the health and lives of your children feeding them contaminated milk.

    • Tiphany Myers

      The Amish exclusively drink raw milk, how often are they dying or getting sepsis or listeria?

      • Trixie

        Nope. Try again. Show me the part of the Ordnung that mandates raw milk consumption for the Amish, and your evidence that none of them experience listeria or campylobacter or e coli. Thnx

        • expat

          Oh, campylobacter. I stupidly took a trip in my 5th month to bermuda with my 1 year old. The hotel was somewhat primitive and next to a dairy farm. We all got it. Bloody poop and fever. My husband had the fever hit him as we were about to board the plane back home. Baby got dehydrated. By the time I got cultured, I was mostly better, but I got treated like I had dodged a bullet because it wasn’t the type of campylobacter that causes miscarriages.

          • Tiphany Myers

            Sounds like you are the perfect person to have a shitty vacation, literally.

        • Tiphany Myers

          I asked a question. Please read before attacking.

    • Tawnya Howell

      You loose when you resort to name calling, very professional, seem you have shrunk a bit. :)

  • Missy

    Amy, I read your article after linking in from something someone shared on FB from the Home Economist you quote. I tend to read all things with a grain of salt and then look for the science and what makes sense. I have no thoughts or desire to investigate or use raw milk. I do wonder though about your approach to the subject as much as I wonder about the approach of the article to which you are responding. It’s all polarizing talk. And yes, I realize that one may be right and one may be wrong and these things are, in fact, polar opposites. However, if your purpose was to educate those who you feel are making poor decisions for their children due to bad information, I would think you may have chosen language that invited them in a respectful way to look at scientific evidence instead of just repeatedly making negative comments about the woman who provided what you felt was very poor advice.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Why do you think they are capable of evaluating scientific evidence? As far as I can tell, they are entirely evidence resistant.

      Remember, these people are a pathetic fringe acting out their feelings of powerlessness by defying standards that are designed to keep them safe. It is a real life example of cutting off your nose to spite you face and then boasting proudly about the gaping wound.

      • Jessica Stitt

        So because one disagrees with your statements, they are incapable of scientific investigation, of research, of possibly being the one most vested in their health and that of their family? Careful, your intolerance and your god complex are showing…

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          No, the fact that you are incapable of doing scientific investigation has nothing to do with me. It has to do with your ignorance of miicrobiology , human physiology, and epidemiology.

          • Jessica Stitt

            The scientific method and basic reading comprehension skills are taught in grade school, and numerous studies, books, and opportunities for personal research are available to all who desire to educate themselves. The basic difference between the group of people like you, and the group of people like me, is not level of intelligence, but in willingness to see more than one possibility, to acknowledge that the abbreviation after one’s name does not automatically render one better than their fellow humans, and in persistence in finding the reason “why”. My family could not find that reason while soley under the care of doctors, who take less than ONE quarter of ONE year in medical school to study nutrition. When we looked to our food, and the synthetic chemicals contained within, while vital nutrition was stripped, both by soil depletion and processing, the answer came. My husband was congratulated by his neurologist for beating his migraines after 25 years and nearly ending on disability. He works full time, exercises, and has his life back. No more drugs, just awareness of what we eat. If you were to be presented with a breast fed year old infant weaning onto whole foods including raw milk from a certified to sell farmer, and a GMO, made in China, formula fed infant eating jared babyfood – the former being robust and healthy, and the latter struggling to gain weight – before you were told which was which, what assumptions would you make?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            No, the basic difference between you and me is that I know microbiology and you don’t.

          • Jessica Stitt

            I see you are not capable of answering my question, or seeing that other doctors saw the results of a drastic change in diet and applauded such effort, but if your perceived superiority helps you sleep at night, then you are welcome to your little microcosm. The father of medicine himself stated: “Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.” I work with my doctors, and I listen to what they have to say, but I do not submit myself or the precious children given me to protect and nurture unquestioningly to their authority. Those who do are the true sheep. One should always question others motives for recommending a particular course of action.

          • Trixie

            Your doctor makes money off of pasteurization how?

          • Young CC Prof

            Right. That’s why my formula-fed baby went from dangerously thin at birth to normal-weight and thriving in just two months.

            And citing the bit about “doctors aren’t trained in nutrition,” nice touch. Doctors learn about every possible aspect of nutrition, from the basic biochemistry of what nutrients are to how they are used by different organs at different stages of life. It’s incorporated into many classes.

          • Jessica Stitt

            My example has less to do with formula itself, and more to do with dear doctor’s predjudice. If you would put reading comprehension to good use, and fully understand the question posed, you might not have feathers in need of smoothing. I asked her, if the case were that she were presented with 2 infants, one sickly and one healthy – and knew that one was breast fed, weaning onto whole foods including raw milk from a licensed seller and the other formula fed and eating jarred commercial foods, but not *which* one, what assumptions would she make about their diets? My husband and I were formula fed and lived in houses where both parents smoked like chimneys while feeding us commercial milk and a mix of whole foods and processed convenience foods. We survived to adulthood and were able to bear children. It doesn’t mean that the *best* choices were made – merely adequate ones. I desire better for my children. We choose not to smoke, drink, or put certain commercially available, but not beneficial, foods into our bodies. Also, a great many M.D.’s have admitted to us that nutrition is not something they integrate into their practice other than telling patients to lay off the booze and fast food. If further education of patients is needed, the patients are referred to nutritionists. Hmmm…

          • Young CC Prof

            Okay, I provided a counterexample to your hypothetical example, and you respond by saying that I missed the point.

            No one objects if you want to make your own baby food out of fresh fruits and veggies. In fact, I recommend it, it’s a lot cheaper than buying those silly little jars by the dozen, it is more nutritious, and it probably tastes far better!

            I’m not sure how “raw milk is bad” = “any natural choice is bad.”

          • Jessica Stitt

            It couldn’t possibly be because it is not only milk that can be contaminated with harmful bacteria? Vegetables grow in the soil, and if purchased at a grocery could very likely be contaminated by soil borne organisms, e coli from any source including laborers working in unsanitary conditions, and pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and more that may not just be found in the peels. Commercial canning is not immune to the possibility of botulism, in addition to the fact that renders the food nearly useless and terrible in taste and texture in some cases, (nothing worse than canned peas.) Meats are constantly being recalled, often too late for consumers, no matter how many USDA agents stood there staring at it. Anything you put in your mouth and ingest is a risk, so why not allow for the possibility that a good many of us are hyper aware and well researched before we make that decision?

            You did miss my point in my hypothetical example. You took umbrage about formula, rather than commenting on the actual point, which was about assumptions. I provided an example similar to yours from my own life, with additional choices made by our parents, and you ignored that as well. It isn’t about formula, or even raw milk so much, as it is about choices, freedom to make them, and predjudices motivating some of the people who want to claim authority and remove choices.

          • Young CC Prof

            Um, I would cook just about any meat thoroughly before I fed it to a young child, wouldn’t you? And most veggies and many fruits are just too chewy to turn into baby food raw!

            So, cooked meat, cooked veggies, cooked milk. It’s only logical.

            And I’m not trying to remove your choices. I’m questioning the reliability of the sources upon which you base them.

          • Jessica Stitt

            Fallibility is a factor in any decision made, ever. I would hope you would not liken Dr.s and scientists to gods. Considering that so many disagree, and the number of studies done to prove or disprove any given thing, I would most certainly question the reliability of ANY source, including a source that was predisposed to the belief that only one way of treatment exists, that others are stupid merely for disagreement, and that a degree allows you to control others like sheep.

          • expat

            I don’t know any doctors or scientists who liken themselves to gods. It seems to only come from those who feel insecure about their education and want to cast those they feel intimidated by as prideful when the prideful one should look in the mirror. There is something called hubris, and it motivates people to do ill considered things. The more education you get, the more you know that you don’t know and you are less likely to trust any information that doesn’t come from a source which has not vetted by experts. Expert knowledge is real, and opinions aren’t worth jack in the face of it. This is something you should’ve learned in school.

          • Young CC Prof

            There are a lot of contradictory studies out there. There are two things you can do about it:

            1) Learn science. Not Google U, multiple university-level courses, starting from the basics on up to the interesting and relevant questions. Then learn statistics. Then read the full text of each of those studies for yourself. (Not an article about the study, not the abstract, the whole thing.) Then decide.

            2) Accept the word of the large majority of experts in the field. If there is widespread disagreement between the experts (Not 99 doctors on one side and 1 doctor on the other, actual debate) ask your own doctor, or refer back to option 1.

          • Trixie

            Give me an example of the last time commercially canned baby food gave a baby botulism.
            Go ahead, I’m waiting.

          • Siri

            Of course they refer them, just as they refer patients to physiotherapists, occupational therapists etc; no one expects their GP to cover every skill that exists within the healthcare system. What kind of lame argument is that?!

          • Tawnya Howell

            Well, in your statement above, you cant say just because your baby thrived on formula is better than a baby thriving from raw milk.

          • expat

            Mrs. Stitt, what I see in your writing is a hefty dose of indignation that doctors feel like they know more than healthy home economists who don’t believe that contaminated goats milk can make a tiny baby deathly ill. Once you get past your pride, you’ll see that what the SOB is saying makes a lot of sense. Homemade formula sold to you by a woman who profits from selling the special ingredients is just dumb. If a formula company was selling poisonous stuff, they would get sued and parents would reap billions. If some lady on the internet indiectly poisons some dupe’s baby, the lady on the internet has nothing to worry about.

          • S

            “…to acknowledge that the abbreviation after one’s name does not automatically render one better than their fellow humans…”

            Someone’s taking this discussion a little too personally.

          • Siri

            I would assume that the reasons why an infant is thriving, or not, are complex and multifactorial, and include genetic, environmental and socioeconomic factors. I would NEVER make silly assumptions about diet right off the cuff; that would be highly unsafe and inappropriate. But then I’m an educated health professional, so my practice has to be evidence-based, not based on prejudice or personal opinion.

          • Siri

            If you spent ANY time around babies, you’d know there are breastfed babies who fail to thrive, and thriving babies fed on formula. It’s really basic knowledge.

      • Lame_article

        You don’t seem to be any better from the ones you accuse, i came here to read your article expecting to learn something more, but you are just a troll! i guess MD at the end of your name does not mean much after all! It just gives you the power to take away children from their mothers when you don’t agree with how they raise them! instead of educating as you think you can you are just defending kidnapping children! shame on you. And i don’t buy anything of what the healthy home economist sells! I buy my legally sold raw milk in a european country where Sarah sells nothing and nobody agrees with you here…does this tells you anything? It is known all over the europe in what kind of situation you have brought yourselves and we are so sorry for the children that have to endure this kind of “legal” violation! I am speaking to you the same language you use, so don’t get all defensive with your answers towards me, you have to earn MD not shove it in our throats!
        Have a good day.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Who’s getting defensive? Not me. YOU are getting defensive because you’ve learned that, far from being impressed with your “knowledge,” I consider you an uneducated, gullible fool who is willing to risk the lives of the people you love to “stick it to the man.”

          • Lame_article

            Your comment is very far from the matter we are dealing here(it was raw milk remember? ) :) so i guess you are pissed off and your tremendous knowledge for it is over! No worries, you can call everybody gullible and stupid to “stick it to the MD” attitude you have, you have no idea what kind of credibility this gives you.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            You’re confused. I don’t care about you and what you do to yourself. I certainly couldn’t care less about what you think of me, since I have no respect for your opinion.

            I wrote the piece because I care about the innocent children who will die because of professional con artists like Sarah Pope and paranoid fools like you.

          • Lame_article

            and vice versa :) it is funny how pissed of you are…

          • Siri

            Pissed OFF, dear; pissed OFF. If you’re going to insult someone, do it properly.

          • Dave

            My opinion is that you don’t know much about how to parse scientific studies. Most of the information in the article that the AAP posted was from a long time ago. It is true that raw milk if obtained under unsanitary conditions, has significant risk. On the other hand, more recent studies, mostly in the Journal for Food Protection, have indicated that raw milk is a low risk food.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            But without adequate education, your opinion is worthless.

          • Dave

            Bullcrap. There is a lot more to education than having a bunch of letters behind your name. I know for a fact that there are some people not officially credentialed in my field that know more than I do about it. I also know that there are some people credentialed in certain fields that know less than I do about them.

            Personally, I believe arrogance makes one’s opinion worthless. If one already is convinced they are the fount of all knowledge, then they aren’t learning much at all. It’s interesting you responded to absolutely nothing I said.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            How would you know what there is to advanced education if you don’t have any?

            Conspiracy theories are the domain of those who feel small and powerless and can explain their smallness and powerlessness to themselves by pretending it is someone else’s fault.

            You lack advanced education. You feel inferior because of it. Your resent those who have it. That’s why you insists that your insider knowledge makes you superior to those who are more educated than you. What else could you possibly say?

          • Dave

            How could you possibly know what education level I have? This response pretty much proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. I reference the Journal of Food Protection and you start ranting about conspiracy theories.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Because if you had an advanced education, you would be unlikely to write the nonsense that you have written.

            You don’t have an advanced degree, do you?

          • Lame_article

            bullying is your second degree, if not your first and only as it seems!

          • Dave

            No, I’m just a lowly college graduate. Fortunately, I never stop thinking, learning, and questioning, and didn’t let my disadvantage cripple me or cause me to despair.

            I do have to admit, though, it is well known that NEVER, EVER, EVER has an educational institution EVER taught anything that was later found to be wrong, so I’m sure that absolutely everything you were taught is correct, and there is no need to question anything or think for yourself.

          • Jessica Stitt

            There are a great many Dr’s with multiple degrees who would disagree with you about your stance on milk and food in general, as well as the care of the pregnant woman, and they would disagree with your treatment of your detractors. It seems to me you feel as though you should be lauded merely because you spent money on one very expensive piece of parchment, and therefore should also be entitled to look down your nose at everyone with whom you might come into contact. It is laughable that you assume that because many disagree,they could not possibly have degrees or even credits – in the same area as you!

          • expat

            You can believe a lot of things but it doesn’t make them true. Arrogance has nothing to do with fact.

          • Dave

            I don’t disagree with what you said, but in my anecdotal experience of life, I have found that there is an inverse correlation between arrogance and the likelihood that someone is right. Your mileage may vary.

          • Young CC Prof

            Define “low risk.” What is the probability that someone who purchases a quart a week for 5 years will never get food poisoning?

            Also, given that pasteurized milk is nutritionally identical and less expensive, it’s an absurd and unnecessary risk.

          • Dave

            Certainly, pasteurized milk is lower risk. That’s because pasteurization kills everything, including beneficial enzymes, etc. I really doubt it is nutritionally identical. Even the CDC admits that pasteurization destroys some of the nutrient value.

          • Trixie

            Mmmm…cow enzymes…so beneficial. To cows.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            How do those “beneficial enzymes” hold up when they hit the stomach acids? 0.1 M HCl does nasty things to amide bonds in aqueous conditions.

        • guesting

          You are Europe’s diplomat? “Nobody agrees with you here.”

        • guesting

          Your comment is proving raw milk is safe…how?

      • Tiphany Myers

        Sciencetific evidence can be flawed. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21588057-scientists-think-science-self-correcting-alarming-degree-it-not-trouble

        scientific evidence can be manipulated by corruption.
        http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/how-corporations-corrupt-science.html
        You have to do your own homework, you cannot trust these people.

        • SuperGDZ

          “Sciencetific” is my new fave word. Or maybe even “sciencetiphic”.

          • Trixie

            Sciencerific!

      • Missy

        I just read the above comment that “all doctors want you sick and stupid.” I now understand your tone. Wow.

    • Tiphany Myers

      She want’s deferrence. All doctors want you sick and stupid, they don’t make money when you are well, silly.

  • Young CC Prof

    Why has the tinfoil hat brigade attacked this old post en masse today? I invite all of you to provide any evidence that raw milk is either safe or provides health benefits that pasteurized milk cannot.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      They are coming from the Health Home Economist Facebook page. I’m glad to have them. They can discredit themselves far more effectively than I ever could by pointing out their stupidity.

      • Durango

        They are hilarious!! A nice representation of the Healthy Home Economists readers, who learned all the science they needed in grade school. Lololol

      • Tiphany Myers

        the evidence of support continues here:
        http://www.drdeborahmd.com/health-benefits-raw-milk

      • Trixie

        I’m sort of sad that Sarah Pope doesn’t have any google alerts set up for her own name. 3.5 months, Sarah? You can do better!

    • Tiphany Myers

      Here is some current information to get you up-to-date.
      http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/11/12/raw-milk-benefits.aspx

      • Young CC Prof

        Good old Mercola! Did you know he deletes commenters who disagree with him or question his conclusions, no matter how polite they are? See any deleting going on here? (Arguing, yes, censorship, no.)

        That’s the difference between the world of science and the world of pseudoscience. Disagreement is no threat to us. Someone like Mercola knows that he’d lose business if his “fans” were presented with conflicting information, since most of what he sells is based on pseudoscience.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Is there any brand of pseudoscience that Mercola doesn’t peddle?

          If I remember right, it’s Scopie’s Law that says that anyone who links to Whale.to automatically loses? But since Mercola relies on whate.to, does that make a reference to Mercola Scopie’s Law Once Removed? Or is it just a corollary?

  • stef

    You are misquoting her. She never said lie. She said be careful what you share. Also Really? It is dangerous to give raw milk but it is perfectly OK to feed a child GMO and chemical laden store formula? Wow this world is truly going crazy.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Yes, it is dangerous to give your child raw milk and it is safe to give your child formula. That’s what scientific evidence shows, but then apparently you don’t care about scientific evidence.

      • Tina Malone

        Exactly, that’s why every 20 minutes a child is diagnosed with autism. That’s why our children are growing up fat, obese and diabetic. That’s why more children are growing up infertile. Our childrens’ life spans will not even meet ours, let alone surpass it. Thank Amy MD but I will pass on your services and opinions. You and your kind have gotten us to where we are today. Besides, you are just mouthpieces for Big Pharma!

        • Young CC Prof

          You know the infant mortality rate has fallen by half in a single generation, right? And fallen by half in each of the previous couple generations! So glad you appreciate what doctors have done for us!

          • Tiphany Myers

            What does that have to do with what we are talking about? The doctor just called people morons for doing their own research. Research she claims does not exist, but does.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Hey, let’s be accurate here. I didn’t call raw milk advocates morons for doing their own research. I called them morons for thinking what they are doing is research. There’s difference!

          • Tiphany Myers

            Alright, why is it your belief they aren’t doing “research”? I have posted a number of perfectly valid, scientifically peer-reviewed articles in support. Many well-read people could find your ideas antiquated as you do not even address the possibility scientific evidence that denounces the benefits has been corrupted or manipulated.

          • expat

            Look up Mercola on quackwatch.com

          • Young CC Prof

            You’re saying that conventional medicine is losing, I provided concrete evidence that conventional medicine is winning and in fact provides better miracles every year.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          And every 10 minutes a person who consumes raw milk is advertising themselves as a moron, apparently. Careful, your mind boggling ignorance, and your gullible consumption of conspiracy theories is showing!

        • guesting

          “Our childrens’ life spans will not even meet ours” seems like a claim that needs some backing up.
          I spent months living on a free range cattle and chicken farm and actually milked cows for a raw milk dairy regularly and drank the milk regularly. I have an open mind about nutrition and health and really got into the WAP philosophy and thought I’d give it a try. At least I came out of it loving butter and coconut oil instead of vegetable oil and margarine :) So I’m not some shill for Big Pharma but after I looked at the evidence I decided that raw milk wasn’t the crusade to hang my hat on. If my children even got e.coli or Guillain Barre because I wanted to prove I was right and I figured out something that scientists and doctors were hiding…I wouldn’t be able to live with myself.

        • moto_librarian

          I truly wish that my checks would start coming from Big Pharma…

        • LibrarianSarah

          Hey can you not use autistic people like me as a scare tactic? It is insulting to me and my community. Do it again and I won’t ask so nicely.

          • Squillo

            Autism is the big bad wolf of alt-med fairy tales.

          • LibrarianSarah

            Be Pharma might not give you autism but Big Placebo definitely gives you a case of the assholes.

  • Dorie Gamble

    IMO all Dr.s are on a need to know basis. I will lie to whom I please to protect my children from over zealous Orwellian Dr.s such as they one who wrote this article.

    • moto_librarian

      That’s right, put the doctor on a need to know basis, but then expect him/her to save your children’s lives when they get sick because of the idiotic beliefs of their parents.

      • Young CC Prof

        That’s how it works, right? Doctors can only treat emergencies, they don’t know how to prevent them. *sarcasm*

  • HisChild

    If raw milk is so dangerous why did Queen Elizabeth insist and ensure the future King of England drank it when he was a baby? I will LIE TO WHOEVER I want to stupid!! We will NOT be controlled my the medical establishment.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Thanks for parachuting in and demonstrating that raw milk advocates are idiots who have trouble with basic principles of logic.

      • Young CC Prof

        And spelling, grammar, and history.

        • Tiphany Myers

          Maybe you want to check your handbook of style, I believe starting a sentecne with a coordinating conjunction is still a grammtical no-no too, Professor. Remember glass houses…

          • Young CC Prof

            *Sentence
            *Grammatical

            I’ll let you do your own spellchecking from now on, as this is a diversion from the main point.

    • moto_librarian

      Then why bother to seek treatment from the “medical establishment?” If you’re so damned smart, deal with it on your own.

      Actually, only do that if it’s your own medical problem. Your children deserve better.

    • moto_librarian

      Also, your rant sounds an awful lot like my four year-old when he’s upset.

  • Tina Malone

    This OB is so seriously misguided it’s ridiculous. It’s OUR healthcare and we can chose to tell our healthcare providers what we want or not. Since when did healthcare providers start thinking they were running the show????? You are providing services to us and we can use discretion as we please. This woman needs to learn her place. She needs to be “right sized” as in her mind, she is much more important than she really is. She’s an idiot.

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      Yup. Us women need to “learn our place.”

      Disgusting.

      • Jessica Stitt

        uh no. This particular, fear mongering, no longer licensed to practice medicine, quack of a “doctor” woman – needs to learn her place, as one who “used” to provide services to her clients. Not as some self aggrandized demi god who lords it over us paeons. *That* is what is disgusting. Just because one throws bushels of money at a degree, doesn’t mean one actually learned anything. This woman thinks women are incapable of birthing, feeding or caring for their babies without a doctor pulling every string. Disgusting.

        • guesting

          And this comment adds to the discussion about raw milk facts…how?
          Look, Dr. Amy is mean and I don’t mean that in a bad way. Those are the ground rules here.
          Why should you withhold information from your doctor? If you don’t trust them, get a new doctor. Or have a discussion about the evidence. Attacking Dr. Amy (who will fight back) isn’t going to change the facts.
          And last I checked, the risks of raw milk outweigh the (actual) benefits. I agree that the raw milk I used to drink does taste better (and WOW is it easier to cook with) but I don’t think the benefit of taste is worth the increased risks of bacteria, etc.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      They’re not “running the show.” They are just a hell of a lot smarter than gullible fools like you.

      • Tiphany Myers

        You may want to consider posting as an alias. Your stated views here, could be detrimental to your practice. Even if there were not a ‘medical knowledge’ question, your personality is not exactly shining here. I’m a nobody, not trying to be anybody. I don’t drink raw milk or have kids. But, I’m not stupid or naive. I’m well read and obviously can express myself in both the written and spoken word. If you want to defend your position on rawmilk, stick to the subject, don’t try to insult people- you only hurt yourself.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Tiphany, I consider raw milk advocates to be a sick joke on par with people who babble about alien invaders or order their lives by their horoscopes.

          If you want to be taken seriously and respected in a scientific discussion, you need to learn some science. You are free to hold whatever opinion you want. You are free to congregate on Facebook with other similarly knowledge challenged people busily overcoming their feelings of inferiority by congratulating each other on their “research”. But YOU and your compatriots came here because YOU and they want to be validated. It’s not happening, Tiphany.

          Your anti-elitism is symptomatic of a greater problem, the resentment of people who have more knowledge than you do. I suggest that you could overcome that resentment by taking a microbiology course, not by pretending you know as much as a microbiologists by reading crap written by frauds like Sarah Pope.

          • Tiphany Myers

            I suggest you read any of the evidence I have posted, and offer unflawed, unbaised and proven conflict-of-interest-free rebuttals. I’m not an anti-elitist, nor am I resentful of anyone more knowledgeable than myself. I wish and pray everyday to meet intelligent people who stick to the subject and don’t put others down in order to further their own self interest. of which, I have none here. Boo-yaw…

          • Young CC Prof

            The word is spelled “unbiased.” And I offered you one such rebuttal further up the page, to your “35,000″ number.

    • LibrarianSarah

      Do you really need someone to explain to you why it is a dumb idea to lie to medical care providers?

      • Tiphany Myers

        You are right, it is a dumb idea to lie to them. It’s also a dumb idea to think they really care. They are there for a paycheck.

        • LibrarianSarah

          And you work for free Tiphany? A person can work for a paycheck and still love their job, care about the communities they serve. One thing I noticed a lot when teaching is that the students get the class that they expect. Students who come into the class with a combative attitude and try to disrespect and ignore me for 50 minutes think of me as at terrible bitch and I don’t think very highly of them either. However, students who come to the class ready to engage, ask questions, and listen find the class informative and dare I say fun. I am pretty sure it works in other fields as well.

          You go into a doctor’s office and expect with the attitude that they are just money grubbing assholes that don’t know what they are talking about and you are not going to have a good appointment. It is simple cause and effect. But you know what, people walk into the doctors office for the same reason students walk into my classroom. Because I know something that they don’t and they need my help. And I want to help but for gods sake don’t make it as difficult and unpleasant form me as you can and expect to get away with it.

          There are many better careers to make money than medicine. Bankers, stockbrokers, CEO’s all make more money than doctors and they don’t put themselves in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to start their careers. They also don’t have to purchase tens of thousands of dollars in insurance to do their jobs either. Or put in a decade of advanced schooling.

          • Tiphany Myers

            The difference being that healthcare is far more serious an issue than college instruction. I know you think students come to class to learn but it’s because they need a piece of paper to get a decent job. Education is “hoop jumping”, life is the real education and it’s critical thinking that makes one successful. Doctors have to purchase insurance because they make errors that injure people; if you did that in your job you would too. They make mistakes because they work in a business model that puts money over patient safety.

          • LibrarianSarah

            I going to reiterate my points in a bullet point format seeing that you missed all of them.

            1. You get what you give out. If you go in with a combative attitude you will get a combative attitude back at you.

            2. Everyone works for a paycheck. That is how capitalism works.

            3. Medicine for the most part is not a big money making industry. There are a lot of careers where you could make a lot more money for a lot less work.

            I would elaborate more on these points but I’m afraid you would miss them again.

            But I am also going to add that if you see education as simply “hoop jumping” then I feel sorry for you. And not in the condescending “oh no so sorry you are not as awesome as me way.” Because you missed out on something amazing. Education is something that teaches you how to think better and makes you a better rounded person and better citizen. I know a lot of people take a college education for granted and look at is as a paper for a better job but it can be a lot more than that if you give it a chance. It truly is the only thing someone can’t take away from you and I am sorry your own anti-intellectualism can’t let you see that.

  • Brittany

    If raw milk is so dangerous, why is it legal and in vending machines across Europe?

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Is that supposed to be a logical argument?

    • moto_librarian

      Really? I’ve never seen a machine offering raw milk.

  • Courtney

    This is so ridiculous. I avoid this site whenever it comes up in a Google search because it’s based on fear mongering. It’s OK to agree to disagree. There are doctors who support the use of raw milk and will point you to their own sources. Who is right? Parents who want to feed their children raw milk should be able to do so freely and legally without fear of their children being taken away. Most people who choose to feed their children raw milk have done extensive research on their own about what to feed their baby. Doesn’t our system have enough to deal with with parents who actually abuse and neglect their children than to go after caring and loving parents who are doing what they think is best for their children? My pediatrician has recommended I wait until my son is 2 to give him raw milk, and I respect her so we will wait.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD

      Parents who want to feed their children raw milk are irresponsible, gullible fools.

    • Young CC Prof

      Or you could wait until your son is old enough to give informed consent, say 10 or so. 2-3 year old children at at high risk of kidney failure if they contract e-coli.

    • moto_librarian

      Willfully exposing your child to foodborne illness qualifies as neglect.

  • L4

    Iv been drinking raw milk for a looonnnng time from grass fed cows…I have NEVER gotten ill and the milk quality is 100% better than anything you could buy in a grocery store. Support local food folks! It’s the only way to win against the corporate dictators that have taken over agriculture AND medicine.

    • guesting

      And I drank raw milk once and got violently ill for a week. Whose anecdote wins?

      • L4

        Please look up the actual statics of raw milk sickness then look up how many people get sick or die from pharmaceuticals, raw contaminated spinach and contaminated beef… Raw milk illness is a small percentage. People eat Sushi all the time…People eat raw eggs…My point is should we just irradiate and pasteurize everything for safety? NO because there are raw things that are beneficial. It’s so weird people freak out over raw milk. And if you got sick…Then next time check out your source or better yet…Buy a cow.

        • guesting

          I milked the cow myself – I briefly live on and worked at a raw milk dairy because I was interested in the benefits and self sufficient farming. I did look up statistics and I’m not worried about the amount of people who get sick, but WHAT they get sick from. I eat raw eggs and sushi but the numbers point out that raw milk has a worse track record than those things. Unless you have new info I’m not going to recreate the wheel when people who are much smarter than me have done the research.

        • Amy Tuteur, MD

          Please present those statistics. You do know them, don’t you?

          • L4

            I do, they are also available on the CDC website. If starting with the food statement… I suggest looking under food borne illnesses and as far as the pharmaceutical statement goes..That number can be easily found. Now, I’m not against medicine AT ALL (I had the worst ear infection known to mankind and nothing was going to get rid of that other than antibiotics) But I’m saying in retrospect…This article makes it sound like people are dying in the streets because of raw milk and that’s not the case. Go to any little country town and you will find a lot of the children drink raw milk and are just fine…Why…Because the cows are well cared for and the milk is clean. It’s all about sanitation and you can have raw clean milk. Have you seen feed lot cows milk?? Those poor cows are piled on top of each other and that is why the milk is pasteurized because the milk is contaminated.

          • Young CC Prof

            Yup, that’s why pasteurization caught on instantly over 100 years ago, all those factory farms!

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            In other words, you have no idea. And you think you are knowledgeable?

          • Tawnya Howell

            All you ever respond with is ” I have a degree, I have a degree, you are an ignorant fool”…. and you think you are knowledgeable?

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            Don’t try to change the subject. You said you were familiar with the statistics and then you acknowledged that you weren’t by telling me to look them up.

            “All you ever respond with is ” I have a degree, I have a degree, you are an ignorant fool”

            Ahhh, there’s that anti-elitist resentment, again.

      • Tawnya Howell

        Well then maybe we should stop driving for fear of car crash, flying for fear of plane crash, leaving house for fear of robbery, rape, hit by a car….. Life is a risk.

    • guesting

      Also, we supported local food until we learned that it’s actually more expensive and causes less diversity in diet. I would never be able to eat bananas, oranges, seafood, or seaweed, for example, if I were a locavore. http://freakonomics.com/2011/11/14/the-inefficiency-of-local-food/

  • Dave

    Uhhhh, is it really true that Ms. Pope recommended lying? You don’t make a very good case. So apparently you consider not volunteering information to be lying?

    • Young CC Prof

      If you know the information matters? Yes. “The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.” If you hide important information from your doctor, he can’t provide proper care.

      • Dave

        Well, obviously, if they believed it mattered as far as something that could be harming their health, they wouldn’t be drinking it in the first place. They are drinking it because they are convinced that it AIDS their health. She is probably just saying that you shouldn’t mention it in an off-hand remark.

    • Poogles

      “So apparently you consider not volunteering information to be lying?”

      It’s called a lie of omission, so yes.

  • rrlo

    This is off topic and rather long, but I have a question for some of the regular commentators and I am really curious to hear your answer.

    Let me start by saying that I am very much a scientific-minded person and when I research into a topic – I try to find reputable, peer-reviewed journals and usually read the whole study (at least the results and discussions sections). Also, I don’t believe natural and “how things are done in the olden days” are automatically better. And I would not consider a home-birth.

    However, here are my questions.

    Do you guys (the regular commentators on this blog) think that there is some validity to the allure of homebirths and going all natural? Is it not possible to incorporate the qualities that draw sane, practical women towards things like homebirths and midwives into standard medical practices? Surely, it isn’t JUST bragging rights, fear-mongering and money that is driving people towards homebirths and midwives.

    Also, I always felt that when women are pregnant or have a young baby – they can be in a very vulnerable (dare I say, CRAZY) state. And the modern midwifery model has a reputation of reassurance, familiarity and compassion – that the OBGYNs can lack. Do you think that women would make better choices if their OBs also approached them with the same kind of attitude that the modern midwives reputed to have?

    Finally, shouldn’t the onus be on the medical establishment to cut through the BS and provide good, reliable information and reassurance to women?

    • Young CC Prof

      I would say that hospitals HAVE incorporated some aspects of NCB. Most allow freedom of movement during the first stage of labor unless there is a reason to forbid it, make the space as comfortable as possible, and allow a woman to bring visitors to support her.

      As for outreach, well, many hospitals do that, too. I can’t comment on the attitudes of individual obstetricians as I have only met a few of them, but most of my interactions so far have been pretty positive.

      • rrlo

        I agree that hospitals have incorporated aspects of NCB – and things are probably better for it. I am also saying that they should continue to do so – obviously weighing the risks/benefits of each practice.

        • Karen in SC

          What else is left to include? Hospitals and doctors must follow evidence-based procedures.

          • rrlo

            Firstly, medical care is not consistent across ALL hospitals and it is also not consistent among all nurses/doctors. So consistency is still left to achieve – nothing is more frustrating than discussing a mutually satisfactory birth plan with your OB and then have someone question it at the hospital because she won’t be there.

            Secondly, I have not done a lot of research into it but here are some from my own personal/anecdotal experience that could still be changed:

            1. Reduce the number of people checking dilation. I was in hard labour for about 6 hours and my cervix was checked at least 12 times.

            2. Introduce the doctor most likely to deliver the baby (I know shift changes happen) prior to starting pushing.

            3. If there is no fetal distress, slow down the pushing process. I had an epidural and followed the nurses prompt and had a 3rd degree tear and a very rapid delivery. I felt that as long as I could be stitched up – tearing did not matter. It mattered to me.

            4. If there is no fetal distress, not administer every single medical procedure at the same time. As soon as I was 3cm dilated, the staff was clamoring for pitocin, epidural and breaking my water all at once.

            5. Keep trying to say that things are not progressing as expected – different people came in and said that to me. As I said, I was in hard labour about 6 hours – so not an inordinate amount of time. Yet, many people came by and mentally prepped me for a C-section (which eventually I didn’t need).

            6. Reduce the number of machinery hooked up to the patient if possible. By the end of it I had the fetal monitor, multiple IVs, catheter, an epidural on my back, my own vitals monitor and an oxygen mask. And I laid there for many hours – it was awful. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that all was necessary but I am still not convinced.

            7. Let the patient eat something or at least warn them that they won’t be able to eat. I realize this is for general anesthesia but it is quite rare for women to have C-Sections under general anesthesia these days – so I don’t know if this rule should still be valid. Also, people have emergency C-sections ALL the time at a moment’s notice – so I don’t know what the difference is.

        • Sue

          Ironically – many hospitals seem to be going too far the other way – with breast milk fascism and banning ”early” inductions. How much further could they go without further increasing harm to the people they are meant to assist?

    • Gene

      Why is there a belief that OBs are uncaring and lack compassion? The OB who delivered my second child was a old white grandfather and was WONDERFUL! There is some validity to the less is more (no, you do not need a huge work up for a fever of two hours duration, etc). The idea that physicians are cold uncaring bastards and only midwives are warm and inviting is a ludicrous fallacy.

      • rrlo

        I am not saying that physicians are cold uncaring bastards and only midwives are warm and inviting. That is the general perception many women who selects the midwifery route have.

        It may just be a branding issue; however, the midwifery model tagline is always “compassionate, competent care” – they emphasize the compassionate aspect of things much more than the OBs.

        Personally, my OB (for both of my pregnancies) is a very nice person – and I have never met with any midwives.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          It may just be a branding issue; however, the midwifery model tagline is always “compassionate, competent care” – they emphasize the compassionate aspect of things much more than the OBs.

          A good way to think of this is to ask, what part of the OB care is “uncaring” or “incompassionate.” When pressed on this issue, it comes down to things like, OBs don’t spend as much time in appts (doing what, exactly? Chatting about the weather?), or that OBs “don’t respect the mother’s wishes,” meaning they don’t let the mothers do things that are known to be less effective or cause complications, or are otherwise against the doctor’s judgement of the best medical approach.

          So if you call an OB uncaring because they won’t let you do a VBA4Cs with a breech presentation because you REALLY want one, and you’ve had friends tell you you can do it, then uncaring they are.

          • rrlo

            It is valid for a woman to feel that they want more time in an appointment with their caregiver. And it is also valid for a woman to bring up a myriad of child-birth related preferences with their caregiver- VBAC for a breech birth included (it is up to the caregiver to say yay or nay and provide information related to why).

            When I see you write that most women preferring midwifery are doing so because their “OBs don’t spend as much time in appts… chatting about the weather” – to me it sounds like OBs are spending just the right amount of time with their patients and it is the patient’s expectation that is unreasonable. When the right amount of time should ideally be determined by the patient.

            Similarly, when I see you write that OBs “don’t respect the mother’s wishes” means that “they (OBs) won’t let mothers do things that are known to be less effective or cause complications” – again to me it sounds like that the only unreasonable and uninformed women are choosing midwifery. And that is also not the case.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            It is valid for a woman to feel that they want more time in an appointment with their caregiver.

            To do what?

            What is not getting done in the appointments that needs to be done?

            “spending more time with patients” means very little on its own. Doing things that need to be done is, otoh, very important. Yet, most of the time, all we hear is about not spending enough time, and we very rarely hear about specifics of what was actually missing, aside from time.

            Moreover, doctors have to balance their schedules for their whole patient pool. Yes, some patients will want to have a lot more explained to them, but then again, a lot of patients will find mundane details to be a waste of time (“Just give me the epidural and get on with it”). So doctors have to make a judgement on how much level of detail to provide, and the default level will be the one that serves the greatest number of patients. If some patients want more info than that, they can ask for it.

            Similarly, when I see you write that OBs “don’t respect the mother’s wishes” means that “they (OBs) won’t let mothers do things that are known to be less effective or cause complications” – again to me it sounds like that the only unreasonable and uninformed women are choosing midwifery. And that is also not the case.

            So what wishes, in general, are NOT being respected? Those where it is not an issue of good medical practice (unwillingness to do a vbacs without proper anesthesiology availability is not due to lack of respect for anyone’s desires). Again, I hear a lot of vague complaints, but when it comes to questions of specifics, they tend to not hold up near as much.

          • rrlo

            The OB appointments are short. So there is definitely less chance to ask questions for sure – not everyone feel comfortable having to demand more time. Others may have communication problem like ESL, simple shyness, speech impediment what have you.

            Some women prefer to have a more personal connection with their care giver – they don’t see their OB on a regular basis (unlike a family doctor) and more time can mean more personal connection.

            Some like to have information given to them and many OBs in general don’t provide that – you have to ask the questions.

            Some prefer to have the same care giver attend their birth. Not possible with a lot of OBs.

            I agree that not all patients want the same amount of time – however, I would imagine having a one hour scheduled appointment feels less rushed and personalized than a ten/fifteen minute one.

            You can rightly question WHY all these things are important and how they are correlated to a successful birth – I think asking that question is part of the problem.

            I don’t know specifically what wishes are not being respected by OBs – I am sure the Internet is full of anecdotes (that will vary among OBs). However, personally, it is a disadvantage to sit down with your OB and come up with a birth plan and not have it followed at the hospital because your OB is not here. It is frustrating to constantly “stand up for yourself” throughout the child-birth process when you are scared, in pain and completely vulnerable.

            I imagine since midwives attend the birth and spend more time with the patient (finding out more about their wishes, preferences, personalities, fears) – many women feel more confident that their wishes will be followed when the time came.

          • Amy Tuteur, MD

            The “right amount of time” is determined by the doctor’s employer and the patient’s insurance company. In many practices doctors have no control over the number of patients they are required to see each day.

            There are not enough doctors to serve the patients who need their care. It is the needs of ALL the patients that determine how much time a doctor can spend, not the amount of time an individual patient wishes to spend shooting the breeze with her doctor.

            Midwives have placed a premium on discussion because they have a lot more time than doctors, not because extensive discussion is either necessary or helpful.

        • Sue

          ”It may just be a branding issue; however, the midwifery model tagline is always “compassionate, competent care” ”

          You may have missed this aspect: accountable providers have to balance spin with responsibility for outcomes.

          HBMWs have the hospital and obstetrician to back them up – they can afford to run the spin, then be rescued when the heat gets too much. Or worse, blame the family for their choices.

    • Sue

      What I am seeing is the result of what I call ”spectrum bias” – it relates to what realm of things we are exposed to. If all you know is childbirth that is incredibly safe, you can only look for the sorts of imperfections that are insignificant in the context of true threats.

      That relates to the style of practice as well as the outcomes. Modern midwifery and obstetrics has come a long way from twilight sleep, shaving, routine episiotomies and stirrups – but has the radical NCB fringe noticed this? The gender balance in obstetrics has also gradually changed, so there are more female specialists-in-training than male in some communities – many of them mothers themselves.

      So, the answer to ”why aren’t hospitals incorporating more of what families want?” is “They are.”

      And finally, ”shouldn’t the onus be on the medical establishment to cut through the BS and provide good, reliable information and reassurance to women?”

      Yep – it should, and is. If only there were a complementary onus on every other provider to be honest and responsible, there would be much less confusion.

  • jen

    She is the most entitled blogger out there with too much time on her hands. We are all supposed to be so grateful that this IVY LEAGUE scholar y’all is teaching us how to feed our off-spring.

  • toni

    It’s a wonder people like this even have doctors when they think so little of them.

  • R T

    Aren’t all most all cases of Listeria in populations who consume large amount of soft cheese made with raw milk? I don’t think it’s actually from drinking raw dairy milk straight. I drank raw milk through my pregnancy and even had it in the hospital with me. My doctors and nurses didn’t mind at all, they had to approve everything I consumed due to my GD. I had an aversion to dairy in the 2nd trimester, but not in the 3rd and kept raw dairy in my mini fridge in the hospital. All the staff cared about was it came from a government regulated & tested dairy. I grew up drinking raw goat dairy from our farm. I have never gotten sick. The only time I got sick from food was when I got Samonella from an expensive resturaunt in Beverly Hills and was hospitalized and recieved a settlement. Horrible stuff! I completely understand anyone avoiding raw dairy products especially in pregnancy and for small children. Getting sick from food is horrible and can be fatal! I personally don’t have any fear of raw milk though. I figure what ever pathogens or bacteria there are I was exposed since I was a baby. I probably would not give my own infant raw milk because he hasn’t had those exposures. I’m not sure though. He’s not interested in dairy at all yet!

    • R T

      I wouldn’t lie to his doctor if I did, but I know his doctor wouldn’t care either!

      • Trixie

        Your doctor wouldn’t care if you gave your infant raw milk?

    • Alenushka

      You are one lucky one dog study.

    • CanDoc

      It depends on many, many factors, including sanitation practices at the dairy farm – BUT even the most careful, smallscale dairy farm can still host E. Coli, Listeria, etc. The absolute risk of one person getting ill from one batch of raw milk is low, BUT that goes for so many things about which we show caution. I don’t think raw dairy should be completely prohibited, but I think the bulk of evidence would say that it absolutely should NOT be consumed by pregnant women or young children.

    • Becky05

      There’s some new data out suggesting risk of disease from raw milk is higher than previously thought: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/817694?nlid=42263_821&src=wnl_edit_medn_peds&spon=9

  • GiddyUpGo123

    I would love to know if there’s any scientific basis for the claim that whole milk is somehow healthier than pasteurized milk. Let’s say that disease wasn’t a factor, if you compare the two side by side what does raw milk have that pasteurized milk doesn’t?

    • Awesomemom

      Sparkles.

      • Sue

        Especially if mixed with Unicorn milk. (Fresh, of course)

    • Trixie

      Raw milk has very slightly more of a few vitamins that heat partially destroys. Like vitamin C. But milk isn’t a major source of vitamin C anyway, and vitamin C isn’t deficient in the modern diet.

      • guest

        There was actually a relatively recent questionnaire based study conducted in Europe that showed that children who received early exposure to “farm milk” had lower incidence of allergies and asthma. I believe that in the actual article they suggested it might be the whey protein at work? But their recommendation was to figure out how to find the protective agent and give it safely. The paper itself said the scientists did not recommend consumption of raw milk, because of serious health risks. Clinical and Experimental Allergy, May 2007.

        • Trixie

          Since most children with exposure to raw milk actually live on dairy farms, where there’s all kinds of poop particles flying through the air all the time, I wonder if it has more to do with what the kids are breathing.

          • guest

            I think they tried to address that, but I think they concluded that farm milk had some effect independent of farm environment. Don’t hold me to that- I haven’t been back to read it recently.

          • Felicitasz

            Interesting. I was a city child, exposed early to farm milk in Europe (as my grandparents lived in a small village and still had a cow when I was a toddler). It is true that I have no allergies. Early exposure to (safe, clean) raw milk may have an effect but … well, I would never have considered giving my son raw milk in order to achieve whatever questionable and not-quite-confirmed health benefits. Had my grandparents (now in their late 80s) still have a cow, yes, I would have let my son taste the milk as it is. I know I loved it. He too is a city child with no allergies, without any raw milk consumption as of today. I wonder if there is really any connection at all.

    • Becky05

      Raw milk has living cells, digestive enzymes, etc just like fresh breast milk. The potential benefits, if there are any since these things are designed for calves, not people, don’t outweigh the risks.

      • Trixie

        Exactly. And these are the same people always harping about how “cow’s milk is for baby cows.” But then when raw milk is concerned, suddenly cow enzymes are the best thing ever.

      • AlisonCummins

        What benefits are living cells supposed to provide?

        Do the digestive enzymes survive the acid environment of the stomach to provide any benefit at all?

  • Lisa from NY

    E. Coli causes permanent kidney damage, even if the person doesn’t die.

    Here are stories of sickness from raw milk.

    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/real-life-stories

  • KayEn

    The only raw milk I feed my daughter is species-specific. If breastfeeding wasn’t so easy for me, she would get formula followed by pasteurized whole milk from the evil Big Dairy sources.

    What the hell is wrong with people?

    • KayEn

      Oh, and she got formula supplementation the first few weeks because she had some blood sugar issues, and once my milk supply was established we stopped supplementing. I was very glad a safe alternative was available to protect my daughter’s brain from being damaged by low blood sugar!

  • Comrade X

    Isn’t this just basically what child abusers do? Hey, make sure you lie to the doctors about how your kid got those bruises. Make sure you lie to the nurses about that suspicious rectal bleeding. WTF?? Once you’re at the stage where you’re counselling people to deliberately mislead those in society who are charged with child protection, isn’t that where you take a step back and really look at the kind of company you’re keeping?

    • Guest

      There was a comment earlier that said some parents were reported and they were told to stop giving raw milk to the kids or the kids would be taken away.
      I’d like to see that happen with actual child abuse cases as opposed to raw milk. I know too many bad parents who still have their kids because the authorities just aren’t strict enough.
      If we’re going to pull kids away from their parents for feeding them raw milk, let’s charge the parents that feed their kids nothing but fast food then wonder why their kids are diabetic, obese and have a myriad of other health problems. My kid gets healthy food now while I have a say as to what she’ll eat. To the parents who say “my kid will only eat Popcorn Twists”, DON’T BUY THEM!!! Guess what? Your kid will eat healthier if you teach them healthy habits.

      • Renee Martin

        They didn’t take the kid away. They probably just told them they needed to cut out the raw milk, because it’s horribly unhealthy, and unnecessary.
        I don’t believe for a second that they were on the verge of removing a child over raw milk. Seriously.

        • Young CC Prof

          They might have implied it. With basically good parents, often a hint is all that’s needed to change behavior. I really don’t think they would have removed the child, though.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            Then again, they may have suggested nothing of the sort. It could just be a combination of the parents being paranoid and grabbing a persecution complex.

            It’s a lot better story about the evils of the man if the CPS is threatening to take the kids away.

          • Certified Hamster Midwife

            dingdingdingdingding

      • Trixie

        Fast food doesn’t cause immediate, severe, food-borne illness, though. At least, very rarely. It’s actually extremely safe to consume.

  • Amy M
  • Allie

    In my area we had a recent incident of disease spread by consumption of raw milk cheese. Two people died. It’s no joke. While I have no problem with adults who wish to take the risk with their own health by consuming such products, I think a parent who plays Russian roulette with their child’s life is criminal. Very disturbing.

    • Renee Martin

      They died? I can’t find any reports of deaths, I guess Im not looking hard enough. any suggestions?

    • toni

      One of the times we went on holiday to Italy the people we were staying with gave me a piece of special fancy cheese that had live maggots in it. (for flavour I suppose lol) Ofc I protested but my father scolded me for being rude to our hosts. It was the foulest thing I’ve ever tasted in my life. My mum was really pissed off at my dad when she found out. she insisted it was dangerous my dad insisted it was fine.

      • toni

        Possibly a stupid question… Could maggots chew through your stomach lining or would they die when they hit the acid?

        • Young CC Prof

          I would presume that maggots die when you bite them, unless they are very very small. (Actually, I’m pretty sure maggots are one of the insects that’s nutritious if you are hungry enough, although I recommend cooking them rather than just eating them alive like a gorilla.)

          • toni

            Believe me I didn’t chew

        • Antigonos CNM

          Considering that “stomach juice” contains 2% hydrochloric acid, I think that, even if ingested whole [also unlikely], they wouldn’t survive.

          That is also the reason so many “natural sources” of medications, vitamins, etc. which are injected [like Vitamin K] don’t retain their efficacy when given orally; they are simply destroyed long before they can reach any tissue that can absorb them. I have often been asked by women in fertility treatment why they can’t develop oral forms of the hormones they have to receive as injections. Would be nice if they could!

        • Trixie

          They would definitely die.

          • toni

            Yes, some local variant of that. Not recommended :P

          • Trixie

            That really is pretty gross. According to Wikipedia, it’s acceptable to put the cheese in a bag until the maggots jump off and die due to oxygen deprivation, and then eat it.

        • An Actual Attorney

          When my brother was small, my mom gave him a snack pack of raisins to eat in the car. When she turned around at some point, his face was covered with live maggots, which had infected the raisins. She rushed him to the ER, and they pretty much said, “eh, extra protein.”

          I still hate raisins.

          • Susan

            Gee, the raisin company should have paid for family therapy… Maybe my therapy I’ll need to erase the image from my mind.

  • ngozi

    GAAAH! Raw milk? Why would anyone consider it? And they think raw milk is safer than formula? I understand if you don’t want to feed your child formula, but RAW MILK instead? I rate this with eating placenta!!!

    • anion

      I would actually rather eat my placenta. (Not that I want to do either.)

  • Susan

    Bravo Dr. Amy for succinctly cutting to the chase of one of the most insidious problems with alternative health care/ natural foods/ natural birth advocates. I think my first real “uh oh feeling” with the homebirth world was over the prevalence with which lay midwives ( as they were then called prior to the CPM credential ) would recommend to patients to lie about the time of ruptured membranes. They freely admitted to this without any apparent awareness of the incredible hypocrisy of asking doctors to trust their expertise yet recommending to their clients to lie to the back up physicians. It was very common. As you point out so well, this it’s okay to lie because WE ARE RIGHT is endemic to the whole alternative health scene and illustrates very well how ethically challenged so many of these people are.

    • Antigonos CNM

      The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that there is a pathologic relationship at work here: hostility against science and medicine — yet those who deny that doctors [et al] who have anything to contribute to health badly NEED those same doctors and scientists to bail them out when things don’t happen the way they “ought to do”, using the cockamamie theories of “nature knows best”. In the past I’ve called it “medical Luddism”, but now I think it is more than that.

      I’m reminded of the book, some years ago, called “Future Shock”. For my parents, the crisis point came when color TV was developed. It simply was “beyond them”. Born in 1906 and 1908, they had absorbed massive changes during their lives, but for some reason, could not come to grips with technology more advanced than B&W TV. “We don’t need it” they told me. “We’re fine with the old TV” [which was mostly static by that point as the set was more than 25 years old] It frightened them.

      For a lot of people, medicine today is mumbo-jumbo, beyond understanding. So if “their” mumbo-jumbo works, why not “my” mumbo-jumbo? If a can of Similac has a list of ingredients they don’t understand, why should the complicated “raw milk formula” be any less effective? Simply diluting cows’ milk, adding sugar is too simple to be any good, let alone scooping powder from a tin and adding water! It isn’t DIFFICULT enough! It doesn’t show enough committment to parenting and there isn’t enough “mystery” about it. And you know, unless there is mystery, it isn’t going to work.

      • Sue

        Insightful comments. I also think there is an innate desire for simple directed solutions. It’s not currently PC to get these from professionally-trained establishment-types, so we have to go to magicians instead.

  • Lisa from NY

    Regarding raw milk, you quoted, “Complications include a 20% risk of spontaneous abortion or stillbirth, with two-thirds of infants developing neonatal infection, including pneumonia, sepsis, or meningitis.”

    The question remains: But not with a homebirth MW, right? It’s the doctors who make this happen?

    • Certified Hamster Midwife

      Yeah, I think if you swallow a garlic clove after you drink your milk, that kills the listeria.

      WARNING: THE PRECEDING IS SARCASM AND NOT ACTUAL MEDICAL ADVICE. CONSULT YOUR OWN HAMSTER MEDICAL PRACTITIONER. RAW MILK AND RAW GARLIC ARE BOTH DELICIOUS BUT NOT FOR PREGNANT WOMEN OR SMALL CHILDREN.

      • Renee Martin

        Delicious? I can’t stop thinking about the gross bacteria….

  • Carolina
    • Lisa from NY

      My favorite comment is from Jamie Kellhound:

      “I considered a homebirth for my son, but ultimately decided on the hospital for one reason: the baby. My mother had a super quick, easy birth with her fifth kid. Perfectly healthy, no complications. About an hour and a half later, the nurse and my stepdad were on elevator with the baby when he suddenly stopped breathing. The nurse slammed the emergency stop and sprinted to the NICU. If my baby brother had been born at home, he would have died – seconds mattered. If you have to drive to get there, the hospital is NEVER close enough, and one lay ”midwife” and some EMTs could never substitute fir a whole team of highly trained baby-life-savers.”

    • Young CC Prof

      That’s so sad. This woman is terrified of another homebirth and natural labor, but she feels like she has to do it.

  • batmom

    So I charted when trying to conceive my son, and I found it helpful. (Though my OB’s advice was the best: “you’re 32. just go nuts with sex. it’ll be fine.”) But the forums where women talk about this are absolutely insane. Typical counsel is to lie about one’s last menstrual period to make it line up with the ovulation date, so that the doctor doesn’t pester you into an induction at 42 weeks when you’re really only 41. So everyone reports ovulation happening 14 days after LMP, and then crows about how they put one over on the doctors.

    (Never occurs to them that the doctor will use the dating ultrasound primarily…)

    Then they complain that doctors don’t trust women or find charting useful. No wonder! All the anecdotal evidence a doctor will have when women lie is that ovulation is exactly two weeks after your period!

    • Trixie

      A lot of them just refuse the dating ultrasound.

      • batmom

        That too. But it also never occurs to them, worried about the perfect birth, that there are decision points around 24-26 weeks where accurate dating can be really crucial.

        • Young CC Prof

          It’s not just around the threshold of viability. The deliver-or-delay decision points go on right up until term.

          Lots of ladies on my birth month club are dealing with this at 30-something weeks. Contractions started? Amniotic fluid leak? Do we fight to delay birth a week or two, or just take the baby now? Mom’s blood pressure is going up. Do we induce, or wait? Gestational age matters!

    • Guest

      My GP and then my midwife actually took my last menstrual period date, which so far in 2 pregnancies matches up with the ultrasound due date. Not all women ovulate halfway through their cycle, so unless your’re charting your ovulation pretty strictly, you won’t know. 14 days is the average, so that’s why they use it. I keep track of the length of my cycles, so it’s a bit easier at least to guess, but it’s still a guess.
      Why would lying about your cycle do any good? You run the risk of being induced either too soon or too late.
      If you’re planning a home birth, even worse because if you’re too late, there’s a better chance you’ll have to have a transfer to the hospital.
      Bad bad idea to lie!!!

      • indigo_sky

        Lying about their cycle is supposed to prevent being induced too early or too late. Let’s say a woman had a really long cycle and ovulated on day 28, but her OB assumed day 14 and so wrote down a due date based on her period date, and so put her at being due when she’d only be starting week 38, and then on her actual due date would consider her as being two weeks overdue already. However, if the woman is certain that she ovulated day 28, and so give a period date of fourteen days before that rather than the real one, then the OB writing down the due date based on day fourteen is going to end up with the actual due date a it should be for her late cycle.

        So, I see the logic. Of course this is still dumb though because in the real world doctors actually do know that not all women ovulate on day 14 and so they are going to go by the ultrasound anyway.

        I had what must have been early pregnancy bleeding right around when my period was due with my eldest, so thought I wasn’t pregnant. I gave that date as my last period to y ob (though I already sort of suspected, since while I normally had light and short periods, that was even lighter and shorter than normal), so the original due date written down by the doctor turned out to be four weeks off. If they had actually stuck to that, it could have caused a problem, but thank goodness for ultrasounds to let us know for sure how far along we are.

    • Young CC Prof

      Arrg. I had perfectly regular 28 day cycles for years before getting pregnant AND I was charting with the ovulation detector sticks AND I know exactly when I had sex AND I had a dating ultrasound at 8 weeks, and my obstetrician is still talking 2 week margin of error in my due date. Doctor, the margin of error is one day. Trust me, I was there.

      Perhaps people who lie about their due dates are why…

      • fiftyfifty1

        “and my obstetrician is still talking 2 week margin of error in my due date. ”

        Not good. Get a second opinion.

        • Young CC Prof

          “Luckily” I got bumped to high risk a few weeks ago, due to my son having 5th percentile abdominal circumference, so now I go to the hospital every week to get tested by MFM. I’m delivering when THEY say so.

    • Susan

      Oh yeah that! As if we don’t understand that cycle lengths vary. Just BS. My EDD was adjusted for when I ovulated all one has to do is explain to the physician the facts. And yes…. dating ultrasounds done properly will trump that too!

    • Antigonos CNM

      After two years of unsuccessful trying to get pregnant again , my daughter was instructed to have sex with her husband every other day following the end of her period. She was pregnant the next month. Turns out she ovulates very early in her cycle.

      • Young CC Prof

        Good point. There are a bunch of screening tests that are only reliable if you know the precise gestational age, like AFP measurement.

      • Isramommy

        Did she have an early dating ultrasound? With my first, my lmp and actual conception dates were way off… on my early dating scan was scheduled for 8.5 weeks by lmp and it turned out I was actually only 6. I scheduled the nuchal and other tests after the early dating scan, based on the due date from the ultrasound, not the lmp (and I was also in Jerusalem but with both pregnancies I didn’t have any problems getting an appointment for the NT scan with “only” a few weeks notice and using the “new” more accurate due date from the scan).

  • Busbus

    Ok, I almost don’t dare to post this here – but since I like this blog a lot and respect you all’s opinion, I’m gonna do it and hope you won’t pounce on me all at once… So, I get raw milk from a small family farm that has 4 or 5 cows, most of which where born on the farm in the last few years. Everything looks clean (I pick up the milk myself) and they say that they test their milk twice a month. We also have chickens, and all of us have definitely been exposed to chicken manure. I drank the milk myself for a long time before I gave it to my older child, and when she had some for the first time (she was over 2 and very healthy), I gave her just a sip at first and then waited a few days, and then tried again with a little more. I wasn’t planning on giving it to our younger child until he was much older because I didn’t want to risk anything. Where I am from in Europe, there are always some family farms who sell raw milk off their farm, and it’s really not viewed as worrisome as long as it comes from a well-run small farm. People will drink it – or not – for taste reasons alone, and it didn’t ever seem like such a big deal to me. (Just for the record, I do think raw milk formula is crazy – as is any home made formula – and I am happy to feed my son Enfamil. :-)) Honestly, not to step on any toes :-) but so far I chalked up the controversy about raw milk here to the general food (and other) craziness of the US.. (Federal raids on raw milk farms? Come on…)
    So, how crazy do you think it is to drink raw milk if it comes from a small, reputable operation..? If you are used to it…? Is it really any crazier than eating sushi (which I like and have let my daughter have, too, in the past)? Are there any statistics I could use to compare it to, say, the risks of eating sushi?

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      See my comment below: how much are you paying for it?

      • Busbus

        Bofa, it’s actually not so bad… It comes out to about a dollar more per gallon compared to whole milk at the store.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          So you are paying extra for the added risk?

          Tell them no. Tell them you will not pay more than you will pay in the store.

          Their alternative is to sell it to the local dairy, which will get them nowhere near that amount.

          • Guest

            Again I think it’s a matter of choice, like spending more on organic. I’ll pay a bit more for farm eggs just because they taste better.
            You do want to make sure the place regularly tests though. They should tell you when they tested and the results.

          • Mel

            Be sure you know what “being tested” means. There are a wide variety of tests each of which has its own benefits and drawbacks. Most testing is done to check the average production on the cow – how much protein, butterfat etc she’s producing compared to the herd average. Testing can pick up cases of mastitis, especially sub-clinical cases due to changes in the conductivity of the milk, but unless they’re testing daily, the mastitis will progress and show up as clotted milk/bloody milk/warm quarters much faster than even a weekly or bimonthly test will show.

            I say that because the wording of the question matters a lot in getting the information you want. If someone asked me, “Do you test your milk?” I would say yes because we test for protein, butterfat, SCC etc. I wouldn’t know from that question that you wanted to know if we test for bacteria. If you asked “Do you test the raw milk for pathogenic bacteria?” I’d say no and probably explain why for 20-25 minutes.

          • Guest

            Excellent point.

          • Busbus

            I actually have no idea what they test. They advertise that they have a “rigorous milk testing program”, and when I asked he said they test twice a month and that it would alert them to any illness or something like that. But I never investigated any further (and quite honestly, I wouldn’t have known what to ask). This is all very interesting.

    • Mel

      Honestly, looking clean doesn’t mean very much. Here are my basic questions if I was getting milk from them. (If they are true cow people, these questions will make their day. My husband loves these types of questions.)

      1. What’s the somatic cell count for each of the cows and the running herd average? (EU requires below 400,000; our farm tries to keep it below 100,000)

      2. How are the cows prepared for milking? Can I watch while you milk?
      (Prepping a cow takes around 3-5 minutes. They should clean the udder of any visible dirt, do a pre-dip check the teats for cleanliness and any sign of calluses or sores, stimulate the udder to start let-down, strip the udder and check the fore-milk for clots or blood.)

      3. How do you clean your system?

      4. What do you do with abnormal milk? (ie mastitis cases, cows on drugs, first week postpartum) Abnormal milk should be collected separately and dumped. Some farms feed it to the calves or pigs. It really shouldn’t go for human consumption.

      5. How do you treat mastitis? (If they say their cows never get mastitis, run. Run quickly. That means they are either clueless or lying)

      6. Do you store the milk from each cow separately or pooled? How long does it take to cool the milk to refrigerator temperature?
      (Pooled brings higher risk with raw milk; on our much larger farm it takes less than 1 hour (36 minutes max) to bring the total batch of a milking down to 40 degrees)

      7. Who’s your vet? Which vaccines do you give your cows and when? (Mainly just to see that they are in contact with medical professionals.)

      • Busbus

        Thank you, Mel! That is extremely helpful :-)

      • Trixie

        I just looked up the somatic cell count requirements for raw milk in our state, and the threshold is 750,000. Is that really gross?

        • Mel

          I’m not surprised. Our co-op started pushing for the 400,000 limit with bonus cash for quality milk 6 years ago and apparently some farmers freaked out. My husband saw it as a fun challenge. At dairy conferences, the second question to ask your small group after marital status and number of children was how do you keep SCC low. I usually start with my snarky answer of “We don’t kick cows in the udder anymore.” Occasionally, you do get cows who shed crazy high SCC numbers without infections. We sold those ones for beef. It wasn’t worth the headache of testing them over and over.

      • Lisa from NY

        Mel, are you saying that these “natural raw dairy cows” may not be giving their cows antibiotics and vaccines??? Are you saying that infected cows may be passing on infections through the milk???

    • batmom

      I wouldn’t personally seek out raw milk because I can’t see a benefit. But the important thing would be not to lie to a care provider should your child fall ill, so they would have the information they’d need to make a diagnosis.

      I’d be interested to see statistics, though.

      • wookie130

        I guess I don’t understand the benefits to consuming raw milk…particularly when you line it up to some of the other milks, such as almond or rice milk. We drink and use unsweetened almond milk, which is high in calcium, and does not contain a lot of the hormones or other crap that dairy milk contains these days.

        • Young CC Prof

          Some people think it tastes better, I’m not going to argue that one way or the other. Some people believe, wrongly, that it’s easier to digest raw milk if you are lactose-intolerant. Some folks think you get good bacteria out of the deal, which is possible but not proven. Some people think there are nutrients in the milk which are destroyed by pasteurization, this is false.

          And some people do it because it’s trendy and counterculture.

          • Trixie

            It’s actually been proven that you don’t get good bacteria out of it.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I would suggest that the difference in taste is more due to homogenization as opposed to pasteurization, anyway.

          • An Actual Attorney

            But, they both end in -ization, so they are basically the same thing.

          • Mel

            For folks who can taste a difference, there is non-homogenized, pasteurized milk. It’s a bit rare, but it’s called cream-line milk. My husband pointed out that raw milk often has a higher fat content than store-bought milk (4.5% to 5.0% for raw Holstein milk; higher than that if you’ve got a Jersey or some Guersneys) so you could probably start to get a similar taste by adding some cream into the milk. (Or a stick of butter;)

        • Trixie

          rBGH milk is indistinguishable from untreated milk. It’s a bovine growth hormone, not a human one.

          • Renee Martin

            Its easy to avoid RBST now. many large dairy farms no longer use it.

    • Trixie

      I live in a state where raw milk is legal and regulated and tested by the state dept of ag regularly, with mandatory education and training for the families that operate the dairies. We have small, idyllic dairy farms run by hardworking, clean, and honest Mennonite and Amish families. Their fresh-faced children skip wholesomely through the pastures where the contented cows graze. It’s really exactly the ideal situation that raw milk advocates propose. I’ve visited many of these farms myself and visually, they are very clean. The people working there believe in what they’re doing. And, it is relatively cheap here, perhaps only 50% more expensive than regular milk.

      And yet, every year we have outbreaks of serious disease tied to the sale of raw milk in our state. From clean, small, family run dairies. Bacteria don’t care. You can’t tell if a cow’s milk is going to contain campylobacter just by looking at it. You can’t change cow anatomy, and the fact is, they muck around in, and drag their udders through, a lot of their own excrement.

      In fact, the “probiotics” that raw milk advocates are so fond of pointing out are found in raw milk, areare from fecal bacteria. How else would lactobacillus get into the milk?

      As far as federal raids, the federal government would only become involved if someone were attempting to sell raw milk across state lines, which is illegal. There’s a big market for raw milk in hipster parts of NYC, for example, and the money is too good to pass up for some farmers in PA.

      And for the record, I will buy pasteurized products such as butter and buttermilk from some of these farms if I trust them enough to tell the truth about pasteurizing it.

      • Busbus

        Trixie, I hear you. Maybe I have to look into that whole raw milk thing again…

      • Therese

        That makes no sense. If lactobacillus gets into milk from fecal contamination, then how in the world does breastmilk contain it too?

        • Trixie

          I made a mistake above; should’ve said bifidobacteria. That’s what raw milk advocates cite as a “probiotic” in raw cow’s milk. At any rate, probiotics must be of human origin to be beneficial to humans. From the FDA http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/BuyStoreServeSafeFood/ucm247991.htm:

          Bifidobacteria have been mentioned by raw milk advocates as the “good bugs” in raw milk. Bifidobacteria are bacteria commonly found in human and animal gastrointestinal track and they are bacteria that make up the gut flora (Arunachalam, 1999). Since bifidobacteria are found in cow’s GI track, they are present in cow’s fecal matter. Raw milk collected with proper hygiene should not contain bifidobacteria. In fact, the presence of bifidobacteria in raw milk indicates fecal contamination and poor farm hygiene (Beerens et al., 2000; Beerens and Neut, 2005).

    • Young CC Prof

      Actually, sushi prepared according to US law is very safe. It should be made only from actual ocean fish, no freshwater animals or shellfish. It needs to be butchered correctly, then frozen solid to kill any parasites. Then it must be consumed rapidly after thawing and kept refrigerated or on ice until put on a diner’s plate.

      If you get your sushi only from reputable places, the probability of foodborne illness is really quite remote. It’s more common in Japan, where a wider variety of animals are eaten raw and the meat is often not frozen.

      Listeria or camphylobacter from raw milk, on the other hand, happens all the darned time.

      • Busbus

        Hmm… I didn’t know that (about the sushi). I always assumed it would be about the same risk.

        • Guest

          From what I’ve read, the reviews are mixed about sushi. I guess it depends on what risks you’re willing to take. My doc recommended avoiding sushi and cold cuts, both because of food handling issues mostly, such as storage temperatures and cross contamination, as well as the extra salt and other processing problems with cold cuts.
          She did tell me to keep eating rare steak and soft egg yolks because, “if you’ve been eating them all your life and haven’t gotten sick, I’m not worried about it happening now just because you’re pregnant.”

          • Young CC Prof

            I’m not eating sushi or any other potentially risky animal products now that I’m pregnant. Although the risk of illness is still very small, the potential for serious consequences is much higher. I eagerly look forward to eating sushi again after the baby comes.

            I’ve tried to avoid cold cuts, but with my multiple food allergies, a few times I’ve found myself in a situation where literally everything else on the table would definitely make me sick. (Yes, I should have planned better, but I freely admit that packing satisfactory bag lunches is a basic life skill that I mostly lack.)

            Rare steak that was well handled and stored and is properly cooked on the outside should be fine, since the bacteria are on the outside. (Rare chicken or rare ground beef is probably not something anyone should be eating, pregnant or otherwise.) Soft eggs are a very small risk but a real one, unless they are soft-boiled, in which case the shell is sterilized before you crack it. I switched to scrambled eggs for pregnancy, because I hate fried eggs with hard yolks.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            When I was pregnant with my daughter I constantly ate hard salami and over easy eggs. Back then no one said anything about lunch meat or eggs.

          • theadequatemother

            Re raw steak and the bacteria in the inside…this doesn’t hold true if the meat has been mechanically tenderized before sale – and that is a very common practice. We had an outbreak of ecoli in Canada and a large recall from a contaminated tenderizing machine a year r so ago.

          • Young CC Prof

            Interesting and good to know!

          • Certified Hamster Midwife

            Regarding raw ground beef:

            http://fray.com/drugs/worm/

            I’ve contracted no worms from eating my own placenta. Or my own young, for that matter.

          • rh1985

            I haven’t been eating deli meat (except for one hot corned beef sandwich) because I don’t love it enough that I have to have it – if it was the only thing I could tolerate I’d eat it. I do eat tuna once a week though.

          • Antigonos CNM

            Try making sushi with smoked, rather than fresh, salmon — the Nova Scotia variety rather than the salty “lox”. Turns out very well! [or vegetarian rolls using strips of omelette or mushrooms cooked with a bit of sugar]

          • Certified Hamster Midwife

            Meanwhile, my friend’s wife in Japan was given no sushi or any kind of seafood restriction. Fish? It’s all protein! Nom nom nom!

    • Allie

      I wouldn’t give my daughter raw milk for anything, regardless of how “clean” the farm is. The risks, which are severe, greatly outweigh the benefits. which are none. In addition, there is no logic in just giving her a sip. The bacteria is either present or not, and if it’s present it doesn’t matter if she drinks a sip or a gallon. Pasteurization is one of the greatest advancements of modern science and I’m damned well going to take full advantage of it. Why do you think life-expectancy has risen so much and infant and child mortality have dropped so much particularly since the turn of the last century? The work of Louis Pasteur is a big part of that. As for sushi, I am given to understand that sushi in North America is made from previously frozen fish and the bacteria does not survive freezing, so it is perfectly safe if defrosted and handled properly. I have never heard of a bacterial outbreak traced to back to sushi, although there have been many traced back to deli meat, undercooked ground meat and commercially prepared bagged salads, which I avoid. Luckily, I don’t have any difficulty foregoing salad. French fries are much safer : )
      Just my two cents. I’m not the boss of you.

      • Young CC Prof

        Interesting point about the salad. Many traditional cuisines, especially peasant-style, feature few to no raw veggies. They just cooked everything, a lot, or preserved it. This may have been because they used organic fertilizers, including human, and relied heavily on roots and dark greens that aren’t particularly palatable raw.

    • miope

      I am from Spain, and when I was young we used to buy raw milk and then boiled it to kill the germs. We never drank raw milk because one of the uncles of my parent died for the malt fever. The family of my parent were all farmers and none of them would drink milk without boiling it.

    • guest

      I think the “craziness” of public health authorities when it comes to raw milk comes from exactly the same place as Dr. Amy’s anger. In both cases, you have this contingent of true believers who insist that (homebirth/raw milk) is the right way and the only way, and that anyone who dares think otherwise is a sheeple/Nazi/arrogant/misinformed/pharma shill. Google, say, Kylee is getting a kidney (Facebook page) or Think Out Loud raw milk (public radio podcast). You’ll see what happened to this toddler when her well-intentioned mother gave her raw milk, believing it was healthier. This happened almost two years ago, and it’s still not pretty. That child is lucky she’s still alive, thanks to some amazing medical work followed by thrice weekly dialysis for months and then a kidney transplant from her mother this fall. I don’t know how much of the damage is permanent – according to the Facebook page her physical therapists are thrilled that she is now able to roll over. She’s three years old. In summary, if I were a public health official, and I wanted to keep kind, well-intentioned parents from misguidedly hurting their own children, perhaps farm raids would start to look like a good idea.

  • Amy M

    Man, every time someone came into the comments to point out that raw milk can cause diseases, and that failing to tell the doctor that a child had raw milk (which could be a vital clue in diagnosing a disease) could be important, a bunch of them would start yammering about doing their research, getting educated, and having freedom. It’s like “I don’t want to hear about diseases and bad things, tra lalalala you are taking away my freedom to be a moron.” Unbelievable. And of course the usual, “all doctors are in it for the money and are in the pockets of big pharma.” Can’t forget that. And no one answered the oft-asked “Why do you even go to the doctor then?’

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      And no one answered the oft-asked “Why do you even go to the doctor then?’

      ESPECIALLY if “all doctors are in it for the money and are in the pockets of big pharma.”

      • Guest

        If you want to live a more “natural” lifestyle, then look for a doc that’s geared towards that. My doc is great about letting me try natural things before drugs, sometimes she even suggests them herself and I don’t see her as a hippy.

    • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

      Man its cool that big pharma had a time machine to recruit louis pasteur into their conspiracy.

      • Trixie

        Some of them literally refect germ theory as “just a theory.”

        • Jocelyn

          :-O

        • Nashira

          That’s it, I’m getting off the Interwebs and going to read my book. (Ancillary Justice, by Karen Leckie! Very good if you like hard sci-fi that explores gender and personhood issues.)

          I just can’t with germ theory denialists.

    • LibrarianSarah

      As someone who lives and works in an area where most people CAN’T see the doctor because even if they are on insurance/Medicaid they still can’t afford the co-pay, these upper-middle class dolts who spend the money to see the doctor only to lie to him/her and ignore everything she/he says drive me batty. So much so that I have to construct a run on sentence to get my point across.

  • Box of Salt

    If you have to lie to people in order to defend your position, you need to re-think that position.

    This should be obvious, even to the liars.

    • Sullivan ThePoop

      This is so true. All science deniers resort to lying at some point. That should clue them in that something is wrong

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I agree with those comments about why bother going to the ped if you are just going to lie?

    We view our pediatrician as a partner in the health of our children. In fact, we are very disappointed because we have just moved, and therefore have to find a new ped. We liked our old one.

    Fortunately, we have lots of friends with kids where we live now, so we can get suggestions of doctors.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Someone needs to learn why formula was invented. Hint: it was not invented as an alternative to breastmilk.

    • Guest

      In contrast: my mum was told by her doctor not to breastfeed my older siblings as she had small breasts and would not produce enough milk. This was in the 1960s. Being poor and from a small town where ready mix formula wasn’t available, the option he gave her rather than powdered formula: condensed milk mixed with corn syrup. Because that would give a baby all the nutrients it needs (extreme sarcasm). She was also recommended to supplement with cow’s milk for me at 6 weeks. When I couldn’t tolerate the cow’s milk, she started milking goats.
      Actually the USA defines formula as a substitute for breastmilk.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        Actually the USA defines formula as a substitute for breastmilk.

        Yes, because it is the best available substitute. It is better than crap like cow’s milk or less crap like goat’s milk. That’s the whole POINT of formula, and the reason it invented – as an alternative to the crap that people were using instead of breastfeeding.

        • Young CC Prof

          Dickens refers to motherless babies raised without a wet nurse as “raised by hand.” He never comes out and says it, but the strong implication is that raising babies alive on animal milk alone didn’t work terribly often, and when one of them lived, the relatives who’d raised it were often a bit confused.

          • http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/ Kumquatwriter

            Thank you! There’s a line in Anne of Green Gables where Anne asks what it means, as her “foster mother” (for lack of a better term) would guilt her about having brought Anne up by hand. She never gets an answer, but as Anne’s parents died when she was an infant… It all makes sense now!

          • Anaesthetist

            Read this lovely link from Mrs Beetons Book of Household management describing infant care eg how to raise an infant by hand.
            http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications7/beeton-42.htm

          • Young CC Prof

            That’s actually really interesting. So before they had latex nipples, they’d actually take a cow’s teat and put it on a glass bottle?

            Overall, that article is pretty accurate. Babies not breastfed were at higher risk of rickets and infectious disease, but keeping them alive on animal milk could work. Cleaning the bottles properly is very important. And the author also suggests that all babies be given the occasional bottle, to get them used to it. I can’t argue with any of that.

      • Box of Salt

        Bofa’s point was the breastmillk was getting substituted anyway.

        Today’s formula is the safer substitute.

        • Guest

          Yes, it is the safer substitute.
          One point I was trying to make with my comment is that it’s difficult to know what to do as a mother when the experts change their mind every year as to what’s best for babies. Meat used to be off limits as a first food. The status of whether to feed eggs or parts of eggs keeps changing. Next year…who knows what they’ll be saying.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            But you already said, the reason the doctor advised X was because formula was not sufficiently available.

            If ready mix formula was available, why do you assume the doctor would have said the same thing?

            The problems with the milk substitutes and the development of formula were well established by the 50s.

          • Guest

            Grocery shopping in a small town
            I love my mum, but I think as her doctor I would have told her to at least try nursing and if it turned out she couldn’t then she should do her best to find ready mix formula in the city and get her parents help to pay for it. He literally told her she wouldn’t be able to nurse. Canned condensed milk mixed with corn syrup (corn syrup said was recommended to my MIL to get rid of constipation in her babies) seems like a pretty poor food for babies. A friend’s mom who was a nurse in those days said even she was shocked it was suggested back then. I think if it was a good substitute, it would still be suggested.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            You also have to wonder how old the doctor was, and how up to date he was.

          • Guest

            Excellent point. I do think he was pretty old by then. Had finally retired by the time I was born 11 years later and my mum’s new doc encouraged her to nurse me. Which she did, fairly successfully until I was almost a year, with some supplementation of goat’s milk and then regular food.

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            I don’t know to what extent doctors were as up to date as they need to be today. Modern doctors are constantly updating practices.

            But even in that respect, they are still going to be biased toward doing things the way they used to be, and will be less willing to accept new things.

            As an old friend mentioned, the way science advances is that old guys die. i don’t know how true it is in medicine, but I suspect there is some truth to it there.

            But think about it – an old doctor in a small town is not going to have access to a library with current information. If they are good, they may have a subscription to JAMA, or their practices might get bulletins from the AMA. That’s their approach for staying up to date.

          • Sullivan ThePoop

            As far as the foods go, you have to understand that just a few years ago someone won a nobel prize for discovering a lot of what we know about allergies. So, of course things are going to change a lot not only in recommendations, but in knowledge.

            In the 1970s they noticed a sharp increase in the incidence of allergies and asthma. Not a lot was even known about how the immune system functions let alone what was happening. So, they thought that restricting foods that seemed to cause a lot of allergies until the child was older was a good idea. turns out, not so much because the incidence of other allergies and asthma increased the same way it had while the foods they were withholding were causing more and more problems. Now they want you to start them earlier and it actually makes more sense knowing what we know about the immune system.

          • fiftyfifty1

            It is frustrating when things change. But it’s better than the alternative. Would you rather scientists hold back new information so as not to appear inconsistent? At least with science, the advice is changing because of new discoveries, not just on a total whim. It’s not like fashion where you are told to change for no reason at all, or religion where thinking changes due to somebody making up a new belief.

    • Amy Tuteur, MD
  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Ugh. I remember this woman. She wrote this horrible anti-vax screed.

    http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/six-reasons-to-say-no-to-vaccination/

    • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

      did a critique of that on the ex homebirthers blog. I wish I had paid more attention to why NCB are usually against vaccines when I was looking into everything pre-pregnancy.

    • Kat

      I hate anti-vaxxers so much, but I have a special kind of contempt for the ones that dare blame vaccines on my (quite genetically linked) ADHD.

  • Burgundy

    OT, I read the first article of this lady’s blog and decide to stop. She talks about Probiotics as a magical element that can prevent sickness. Originally, it is a drink call Yukalt. I have drinking it since I was 3. The probiotics myth blows up in recent years (especially in Asia) and I have not seem any credible studies to prove it.

    • Young CC Prof

      The state of the evidence is basically that there is a connection between your gut flora and your health. We don’t really know what an ideal gut flora looks like, and we don’t know what variations from normal mean.

      It is plausible that probiotics can improve health, but we don’t know the best organisms, or dosage, or mode of delivery. There’s some evidence for specific regimens to prevent antibiotic-associated diarrhea, but otherwise, taking a probiotic is complete guesswork. It’s like reaching into the pharmacy with your eyes closed, and popping the first pill you come across. And of course, probiotic supplements aren’t well monitored, so they suffer from quality control issues.

      • Burgundy

        We drink Yukalt back home like kids drink CoolAid here. It is a sweet drink and no one really considers it “health” (since it is loaded with sugar). I am really amazed seeing all these probiotics supplements popping up left and right. If their theory is right, I should never get sick because I love those drinks and drink them a lot….(currently recovering from a cold).

  • Ra

    I had a patient who made the beef liver version of the WAPF formula and brought it to the hospital with her to feed to her newborn (she brought it when she checked in to L&D in early labor). This was the mother’s first child and she was so convinced by what she read online that she had decided this was superior to breastfeeding. We had to track down all sorts of nutritionists, pediatricians, etc. and have an intervention of sorts. It was ridiculous.

    • Burgundy

      Wow, this woos group believes that beef liver is better then breast milk? The woo needs to pick one myth and stick to it.

      • Trixie

        Lactivists mostly HATE WAPF because they’re always recommending formula instead.

  • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

    omg the comments. Someone dropped allergy medication in favor of essential oils. They all keep trying to out-crunchy each other -_-

    • Trixie

      I’m loving the ones who comment that they lie to their doctors and are scared of CPS…and they comment through Facebook with their real names lol. Guess raw milk doesn’t cure the derp.

    • slandy09

      My woo-filled SIL has terrible seasonal allergies, as do two of her children, but she will not take medication but rather go on “allergy diets” and the like to treat them. Ugh

    • Kat

      Okay, too be fair, I fudge how many drinks I have per week almost every time I go to the doctor.

  • Meerkat

    Wow, how scary… When I was a child I knew a family with a girl my age, whose mental age was probably 3 (she was 10 at the time). She had meningitis and got brain damage as a result. She was beautiful and will remain a child until she dies. Her condition put a tremendous strain on her family.
    Yup, meningitis, sepsis, and listeriosis (not to mention death) are “worth” the risk. I suspect that the author hasn’t seen the victims who suffered from drinking raw milk. What a waste.

  • Antigonos CNM

    Why even go to a pediatrician if you intend to lie to him/her? What’s the point? The doctor isn’t Sherlock Holmes, after all. He can’t treat a patient properly if he is deliberately misled.

    • Guest

      Definitely true. Why go to the doc if you’re going to lie? I’m completely honest with mine, for better or for worse. I don’t have anything against raw milk (we drank it as kids since my mom milked cows and goats and I love the taste of it), but I’m not sure I’d give it to a kid who’s immune system isn’t quite 100%. I also don’t think I would drink it while preggo since I haven’t drank it in years.
      I agree with getting away from processed foods, but you need to be careful where you’re getting your product from then. It’s like keeping an eye on recalls at the grocery store. Who wants to get e coli from contaminated spinach from the grocery store after all?

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        My problem with raw milk isn’t just the disease, it’s that it’s a ripoff. Jeez, for that extra risk of disease, you get to pay 5x the grocery store price.

        What a friggin scam.

        I could understand if the farmer sold it to you under the table at a price that was cheaper than the store, but more than they could get from the dairy.. But no, pay the premium for the extra risk!

        • Guess

          That’s my big issue with organic! I’d love to eat more organic food since I grew up with it on the farm, but the cost is ridiculous!

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            To be fair, organic food should be more expensive since there is a supply issue.

            Raw milk, otoh, is as plentiful as need be. Just tap off a few gallons from the bulk tank before the milkman shows up.

            I’ve described this before, this is what we actually had growing up. We had an arrangement with a local farmer where we bought milk from him directly, at a cost that was mutually beneficial. I have a lot of memories of “going to get milk” – it was particularly fun to do on Christmas Eve because we could look for Santa and Rudolph.

            We’d fill a 5 gallon pail and leave a check.

          • Amy M

            I worked on a dairy farm for about 6mos in college…we’d shoot some milk from the cows into our coffee while we were milking them. That’s about as fresh as it gets, but I wouldn’t bring any back to my apt, because it would get all gross in the few hours between filling a bottle and getting home. I’m lactose intolerant and therefore not a big milk drinker, but not a fan of raw milk….I love pasteurization, thanks.

          • Therese

            I think with the raw milk you are paying for them to take extra precautions with cleanliness then a huge dairy farm would be taking. I mean, if someone has decided that they’re going to be drinking raw milk, doesn’t it make sense to pay a few dollars extra to a farmer who specializes in raw milk and is therefore used to taking extra cleanliness procedures than to save a few dollars by buying it from a farmer that intends to pasteurize it and so isn’t so careful about cleanliness?

          • Mel

            We belong to a co-op as do most of the large and small dairies in Michigan. Even though our milk is going to be pasteurized, we’re obsessed with cleanliness. First, a clean farm cuts down on mastitis which is expensive in terms of lost milk. Secondly, we are eligible for bonus checks if our milk is ‘clean’ or ‘quality’ – low somatic cell counts. (Cows who have mastitis shed extra cells into the milk due to inflammation. High SCC means injury to the udder or an infection. Low SCC means no infections.) It’s a win-win situation. The dairies get extra cash for good practice and the wholesalers get milk that they can demonstrate comes from clean cows.

          • Therese

            So would you say your attention to cleanliness is typical of dairies? There is a small dairy in my area that specifically got started selling their own milk because they were tired of their milk that they were so diligent to make sure was clean was mixed together with other dairies who weren’t so diligent. I don’t know if rewards were being offered for clean milk though.

          • Mel

            Yeah. Everyone is cleanliness obsessed. Farmers are painfully aware that one food-borne outbreak that can be traced to your crop causes everyone to suffer. Plus, you need to pass USDA inspections which are detailed to the point of obsessive. (On our last one, we got docked points for having too many paper towels in our supply room.) I

          • Trixie

            There are also cleanliness standards for milk intended for pasteurization. After all, pasteurization reduces pathogen levels significantly, but doesn’t eliminate them entirely.
            But there’s no way to make any farm clean enough to make raw milk safe.

      • Antigonos CNM

        I was surprised not to see TB among the list of diseases that can be transmitted by drinking raw milk.

        I also checked out the “recipe” for “raw milk formula”. Compared to the simple cows’ milk/sugar/water formula I remember reading in Dr. Spock, this sure requires a lot of ingredients, some of which I have no idea what they are supposed to contribute.

    • Anna

      If you go to a pead and lie to them and they consequently misdiagnose you it just adds more fuel to to “doctors/medicine don’t know anything!!” fire. They don’t see the connection somehow… Just another cool story to swap in the park about how you and little nature child have been wronged by the system.

  • http://shameonbetterbirth.wordpress.com/ Shameon Betterbirth

    “And who would think that offering recipes for baby “formula” made with raw milk constitutes medical advice?”

    Oh. My. God.

  • PoopDoc

    I find it really helpful to know what my patients are exposed to. It makes treating their illnesses much easier. We ask about travel, animal exposure, well water versus city water, parent professions, etc. I’m kinda a hippy, with (thankfully) immuno-competent kids. I wouldn’t feed my own raw milk or cheese, so I have a hard time endorsing it when I hear my patient’s do it.

    • The Bofa on the Sofa

      Yeah, but you make the stupid mistake of thinking that, as a health care provider, you should be a partner in your patients’ health.

      Folks like those mentioned in the OP think that the doctor should be the equivalent of a Burger King (or, as the kids are saying these days, Booger King) worker, and your job is to take their order and give them what they want.

      • PoopDoc

        Patients like that fire me pretty quick. :)

  • MaineJen

    You forgot “lie to your OB about when your water broke.” I’m sure nothing bad ever came of that…

  • Mel

    More ranting.

    I got a raging case of diarrhea last summer. When I went to the doctor, my FIRST concern was that I picked something up from the livestock. I went in with a list of all of our livestock by species – cows, chickens, cats, dogs and pig exposure. My FNP took looked at the list, asked me a bunch of questions about diet and hobbies and ran a stool panel. I had C. diff. Notice, though, I didn’t lie to my doctor.

    Two years ago now, my father-in-law nearly died from meningitis. They had him on IV antibiotics and were having a hard time determining the causal agent. One of the doctors heard my husband and mother-in-law talking about the farm and asked what kind of farm they lived on. When they said ‘dairy’, he excused himself. My FIL had Q-fever. Thankfully, one of the antibiotics he had been started on was the 1st line treatment for Q–fever, but my FIL still spent several days in the ICU with dangerously low blood pressure and acute kidney failure.

    Ever since then, anytime I end up at the doctor with anything, I blurt out to every medical professional “I’m a teacher, but I live on a dairy farm and do work with the animals sporadically.”.

  • Mel

    *shudders convulsively* Jesus Christ. This is going to kill someone.

    My husband’s family drank raw milk growing up. They also LIVED, WORKED and PLAYED on the farm – i.e. covered in cow manure. (My husband and his brothers share stories of jumping from stall to stall over the cows when they were in elementary school. They would also play hide and seek in the barn and hide next to cows in their stalls.) I feel very confident in saying that they were exposed to everything that the cows had through a basic fecal-oral route.
    No one ever got critically ill, but my in-laws would have never lied to their pediatrician either (When you live in a small town, everyone would have known they drank raw milk anyways.). Also, the herd was tiny (40 cows) and had about 1 new cow bought from off the farm about every 5 years. I imagine this tended to create a stable microbiome on the farm since most cows were born, raised and milked on the same farm.

    I don’t drink raw milk. Since I teach, I don’t get nearly enough cow manure on me to guarantee exposure to the newest bugs on the farm. I also had a flag added to my medical file – “Ask about zoonotic exposures” since my doctor is in a nearby city and may not think to ask about it.

    My kids won’t be drinking raw milk. Our operation is much, much larger now. We move cows between multiple locations. Short of dropping my kids in the different barns on a rotating schedule, I have no idea on how I could expose them to enough bacterial load. Seriously. Just buy the damn milk at the store.

    • Young CC Prof

      Back in the day, most people who drank animal milk did so from their own single animal or their village’s small herd. The animals carried whatever germs they carried. The first time you drank it, you got exposed. (If you were lucky, you still had a few antibodies from Mom to help you get through it, especially the IgA.) So, you either got sick and died, or didn’t die and developed immunity to the animal’s germs.

      After that, though, unless the animals picked up something new, the risk to you from that raw milk was minimal. (Of course, some babies died from that first exposure, but babies died a lot back then. People were grieved, but not surprised.)

      Drinking raw milk under modern conditions, with milk and cows being moved all over the country, is flat-out insane. Also, assuming you are otherwise being a good parent, it probably increases the risk of your child dying by several hundred percent.

      • Amy M

        But raw milk was how TB was spread in the cities wasn’t it? Or brought to the city, I guess. Of course, there you had a huge population consuming products from many outlying rural areas, so a nice wide range of germs, and your milk source was probably mixed. Refrigeration, obviously, not so good or nonexistent—yay consumption!

        • Mel

          It took vets a long time to stamp out TB in dairy cows. TB does produce symptoms in cows, but not terribly strong ones. James Herriot in one of the “All Things Bright and Beautiful” series talks about working as a TB tech. Honestly, the infected cows just looked “un-thrifty” – a bit skinny, bit lower milk production. Nothing that couldn’t be explained away by a rough winter or getting older or a rough calving or two. It took major government cash/time inputs to eradicate TB in the bovine populations. And TB in cattle could come back in a heart-beat. Several herds in CA were quarantined/ destroyed after a TB-positive worker infected the cattle.
          Have I mentioned I really, really dislike raw milk? I call it OPIM – “other potentially infectious material”

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            So does “un-thrifty” rise to the level of ADR?

          • Mel

            I don’t know the acronym ADR. Give me a definition and I’ll let you know :-)

          • The Bofa on the Sofa

            “Ain’t doing right”

            My wife, the vet, describes it as a “farmer diagnosis.”

            Vet: “So what’s seems to be the problem?”

            Farmer: “I don’t know, she just ain’t doing right”

            It’s so common, that the vets just say the animal is ADR.

            Not that ADR generally means it’s enough to be calling a vet.

          • Mel

            Awesome!
            No, that was the problem. If the cow was ADR, the vet would have had an easier time getting the farmer to euthanize the cow. “Yeah, Buttercup’s got TB and is never gonna be good again”. In GB and the USA, the government had to get a bit draconian with a reasonable size carrot (paying for replacement cows) and a large stick (fines; jail time).

            No, these cows looked a little off but nothing huge. A little skinny….on the 6 pt body scale with 1 being skeletal and 6 being obese, they’d run maybe 0.5 below ideal. Plus, there are always a few cows that just look a bit off. No one wanted to think that their cows had TB.

          • drmoss

            The UK is still culling badgers on the grounds that they give TB to dairy cattle (I actually think it works the other way round and cows give it to badgers, after all, humans only developed TB once they had domesticated cattle. It is originally a bovine disease.) I do know that tuberculin (Mantoux) testing for TB isn’t very reliable in humans so I imagine it is the same in cows. And this is why Pasteur invented the heat treatment of raw milk. Tuberculous ileitis isn’t any fun

  • Trixie

    WAPF is crazy. They also advocate an impossibly fatty diet for pregnant and nursing mothers (7-8 tablespoons total of butter, lard, cod liver oil and coconut oil every day, plus 4-5 eggs yolks, a quart of whole raw milk, liver, and lots of red meat) and say that if you don’t follow it exactly, your breast milk won’t be nutritious enough, and so you should make their raw milk formula instead. Or one made out of…beef liver. For real.

    • me

      I do eat a high fat, low carb diet. And it works extremely well for me. I think it can be quite beneficial for those who are insulin resistant and/or diabetic. That being said, I don’t impose it on my children or husband (they don’t seem to have the trouble with carbs that I do, and the kids are growing and active, they use those carbs). And I do not consume unpasteurized dairy products. I did not grow up on a dairy farm. Someone who did grow up on a dairy farm has a far better chance of having a certain level of immunity to these sorts of germs (and even then, the milk must be handled properly). Now, we did have a steer and some pigs and chickens when I was a kid, so *maybe* I would be okay, but my kids are “city kids”. I would never dream of giving them raw milk. I understand having issues with grain fed dairy. But, you can find pastured dairy that is also pasteurized. Best of both worlds.

      • Antigonos CNM

        Since fat [of any sort] has 9 calories to the gram whereas protein has 4, you would be better off eating a high protein, moderate to low fat, low carbohydrate diet if you have GDM. Your blood sugar levels might be OK with high fat, but you will gain weight more easily.
        Not to mention that, as the uterus displaces your stomach upwards in the last trimester, a lot of women find that fats give them bad heartburn.

        • me

          I’m done having kids (and never had GDM). I did have terrible heartburn on the standard advice (high carb, whole grain based, low fat) diet I followed thru my three pregnancies. It didn’t seem to matter what I ate (I didn’t know shredded wheat with skin milk could give you heartburn, but boy howdy did it ever!).

          I personally find fat far more satiating than any other macro, so the whole cal in/cal out formula never much worked for me. Sure, carbs and protien have fewer calories per gram, but if you have to eat 2-3 times as many grams of them as you would grams of fat to feel “satisfied”, just eat the fat. It works out to fewer calories overall. And protein can cause similar insulin spikes as carbs can. Fat does not. I’ve eaten high fat, moderate protein, low carb for about 6 months now. In that time I’ve lost 25 lbs, 2 dress sizes, my eczema is gone (for the first time in 7 years, that alone is enough to keep me eating this way), hypoglycemic episodes are gone, energy level is stable, and mood has improved. I’m not hungry all the time (like I was on the ‘food pyramid’ diet), nor do I obsess about or crave food. And this is the first holiday season in, well, *ever* that I’ve actually lost weight (4 lbs) since mid-October. And that’s despite relaxing my diet to allow for traditional holiday treats.

          I’ve found what works for me, and, while I appreciate the suggestion, I’m in no hurry to change anything :)

          • Renee Martin

            I’m with you on this. I eat lots of fat, mostly butter, cheese, olive oil. I eat much less when I eat this way, I can maintain my weight without effort, and it tastes good.

      • Trixie

        Even pastured dairy cows get a mix of grain and soy based silage. Especially in the winter. Although I tend to agree that mostly-pastured milk tastes better, I’ve got no issue with farm animals being fed grain based feed.

        The amount of saturated fat that WAPF advocates would put anyone at a much higher risk of heart disease. And in fact many of their board members have died of heart disease.

        • me

          I’m not sure I agree with you second statement. Seems like most cardiologists are moving away from the lipid hypothesis and towards an inflammation hypothesis these days. And despite mass hysteria to the contrary, there is really no definitive evidence linking saturated fat intake to heart disease. Even Ancel Keys’ (father of the lipid hypothesis) work, which was totally based on observational studies, btw, found links with sugar and heart disease (among other things), he just chose to focus on the fat. Fat, even saturated fat, seems relatively benign, at least in the absence of high carbs. Avoiding inflammation (which can be caused by, among other things, chronically high blood sugar, an Omega 3:Omega 6 imbalance, and rancid seed and vegetable oils (canola, safflower, corn, etc)) seems a safer bet.

          As a nation, Americans have reduced their intake of saturated fat quite dramatically in the past 60 years (*almost* to the levels recommended). Heart disease rates are at all time highs, despite our nation largely giving up smoking in that same time frame. What has increased in that same period? Sugar consumption and vegetable oil consumption. But what do the new government recommendations suggest? Even less saturated fat… Derp.

          • Trixie

            Um…this is a derpy response. Saturated fat consumption is absolutely, clearly linked to heart disease.
            A lot of saturated fat was, until recently, replaced with trans fats, which are even worse. Also, our population is both aging and more obese. And huge numbers of people still smoke.

          • me

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

            “A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is
            associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.”

            As for us being aging, fair enough. Yes, there are “lots” of smokers still out there, but as a percentage of the population? Much, much lower than 50 years ago.

            Obese? sure, and we got that way when they told us to stop eating fat and start eating grains…. Cuz, you know, back in the 1940′s (when butter was it’s own food group, and you only “had” to have a couple of servings of grains a day) we were all so obese….

          • AlisonCummins

            The first thing is to cut total calories and total fat. Once you’ve done that you can start favouring unsaturated fats and avoiding trans fats. We have not cut total fat since 1980 and total calories have been increasing.
            Note that deep-fried foods all contain trans fat even if the frying oil is unsaturated. We eat a lot of fried foods these days and trans fats are worse than saturated fats.
            For two moderately active non-smokers each consuming 2000 kcal/day and each with a fat intake of 67g/day, the one with a higher proportion of saturated and trans fats in those 67g is the one at higher risk of heart disease. The evidence is very clear.
            The sedentary one consuming 3500 kcal/day trumps both of them.

          • me

            “The first thing is to cut total calories and total fat.”

            By cutting total calories, you cut total everything. Since protein needs remain pretty constant (too much or too little can cause problems) the question is, cut fat or cut carbs? For years we said cut fat, and yeah, we’re eating more calories now… we’re hungry.

            “We have not cut total fat since 1980 and total calories have been increasing.”

            Actually we continued to cut total fat thru the 1980s when it rose somewhat between 1990 and 1995. However, our percentage of calories from fat has remained constant, even though grams of fat has increased:

            http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/NutritionInsights/insight5.pdf

            “Note that deep-fried foods all contain trans fat even if the frying oil is unsaturated.”

            Not if the frying “oil” is beef tallow or lard…. oh yeah, CSPI made restaurants stop using that, and start using shortening (gak). Of course, most fried foods also contain a lot of carbs (breading/batter on fish/chicken, french fries, donuts, etc). fried foods are generally a bad idea just because the combination of high fat and high carb is decidedly horrible.

            “We eat a lot of fried foods these days and trans fats are worse than saturated fats.”

            I agree with that. But as I said before, fried foods are not just high fat, but high carb as well. And this is absolutely a deadly combination. Avoiding processed foods, packaged foods, fried foods, refined sugars, grains, industrial oils, and too much overall starch and sugar in the diet seems more important than simply “cutting fat”. If you replace total fat with sugar/starch, are you really doing yourself any favors?

            As for the evidence being clear? Not so much. Most of these studies rely on food questionnaires (notoriously unreliable) and quite often saturated fats and trans fats are lumped together (just as you have lumped them together in your statement). And it begs the question: what is the lower-fat consumer replacing the fat with? Skittles and Hershey’s syrup are fat free foods, remember….

          • Renee Martin

            Cut calories and fat?
            No thanks. You gotta die from something. I will take my chances with my diet of healthy fats, and a wide range of yummy non processed foods, and some bike riding.

          • Young CC Prof

            But we haven’t cut fat in recent years. And age-adjusted heart disease numbers have actually improved, partly due to better treatment. (In other words, just as many people are dying of heart attacks as 30 years ago, but they are older when they die.)

          • me

            Dying, yes. We are better at keeping alive after they suffer a heart attack. But the rates of heart disease (independent of death) are higher. No, a heart attack isn’t as likely to kill you now, but more people will have heart disease than before….

          • KarenJJ

            Interestingly one of my parents has the same issue with chronic inflammation that I have. After they started a biologics medication to control the inflammation, their cholesterol level shot up. No idea what that means – the theory (as I understand it) is the liver now had something more to do then deal with the inflammation… Now they get to be on both biologics AND anti-cholesterol drugs.

    • Young CC Prof

      That recipe was posted on my birth month club. Luckily it doesn’t sound like any of the ladies there were actually planning to do it, they were just curious.

      Obviously, that’s way too much protein for a newborn and you’re going to like mess up their kidneys or something.

      As for following that diet in pregnancy, forget the fat and cholesterol content, cod liver oil and liver have massive quantities of pure vitamin A, enough to act as a teratogen. Does this woman have any idea that retinoic acid is a vital hormone in early embryonic development, and that excessive blood levels dangerously perturb this stage? Nope, didn’t think so. (Don’t think she knows what the words mean, either.)

      • Trixie

        They claim if you just eat enough animal fat, it will all work out fine.

      • Therese

        They claim that the only studies done showing a teratogen effect was from artificial vitamin A and that there isn’t any evidence that natural sources of vitamin A would have the same effect. Anyone know if that is true?

        • Young CC Prof

          I would believe that if they were talking about carrot juice, but the form of Vitamin A found in liver is exactly the same as what’s found in the supplements. The rest of the argument amounts to a naturalist fallacy that completely ignores chemistry.

    • Anka

      I ran across them when I was looking for solutions to low milk supply. I was thinking, ‘wow, this diet looks really nice! Fish eggs!” And then I read the part about *NO* prescription medication, not even things that are identified as safe, and I realized that they were crackpot dipsh!ts.